# What is going on with Toyota?



## hockeynut (Apr 14, 2002)

First accelerators, then brakes, now power steering (Corolla)? This used to be the brand of quality...is that no longer the case?

We have had Toyotas for years...my daily driver is a 94 Corolla with 206k miles on it, and it still runs like new! Its been to the shop less than my 330cic...

I wonder how much of this is being blown out of proportion by the gov't since they are now in the car business :dunno: Bad news for Toyota is good news for GM/Chrysler.


----------



## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

Given that the recall affects not just 2010 cars, but much older models as well, I'd say Toyota was very successful at hiding their problems... until now.


----------



## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

I have also heard that they expanded production way too quickly, and had factories running with inexperienced people building new models. There is a great deal of expertise needed in any sort of auto assembly, and in managing a huge plant. It seems that Toyota did not have all that going for them in some plants.



> Toyota is suffering from trying to get too big, too fast. In the early years of this century the company sensed weakness among its Detroit rivals in the American market, and also opportunity in China and other emerging markets outside the U.S. So it began a headlong expansion spree around the world.
> 
> In doing this Toyota abandoned one of the shibboleths of its conservative culture: never building a new product in a new factory with a new workforce


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704878904575031082583154198.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

This is probably not the whole story, but it seems to be a substantial part of it.


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Media Frenzy. CNN loves using the fear font.


----------



## jat335i (Jan 11, 2010)

hockeynut said:


> First accelerators, then brakes, now power steering (Corolla)? This used to be the brand of quality...is that no longer the case?
> 
> We have had Toyotas for years...my daily driver is a 94 Corolla with 206k miles on it, and it still runs like new! Its been to the shop less than my 330cic...
> 
> I wonder how much of this is being blown out of proportion by the gov't since they are now in the car business :dunno: Bad news for Toyota is good news for GM/Chrysler.


I'm befuddled like you.
I have a 1997 Corolla CE (5MT) and at 128600+ miles, its been running great. I have never had any major mechanical issues nor has it ever broke down while on the road. When I bought it back in the summer of 2008, I've had various preventive and regular maintenance things done to it (i.e. new valve cover seals, crank shaft seals, camshaft seals, new timing belt, new water pump, new belts, new hoses, new plugs, wires, dist rotor, new brakes, new rotors, exhaust manifold). In addition, I change the oil every 3,000 miles. With all that done to it, I'm sure it will last forever.

In addition to GM/Chrysler, it's also good news for Ford.


----------



## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

IBM got too big, lost to Dell, HP, Microsoft and Apple.

GM got to big along with Ford and Chrysler, quality suffered.

Toyota/Scion/Lexus got big and suffered due to quality and more importantly *SAFETY *issues.

You cannot be the biggest and the best. Simple fact.

Toyota was at the top of their game 10-20 years ago. Anything they produce now has become a GM clone with parts pushed to most models (aka Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac).

GM went down hill in the early 1970's although the issues did not ring home for 10-15 years due to momentum.

Quality problems don't happen overnight. They cannot be solved overnight either. Toyotas issues will take the better part of the decade to solve as the quality issues are part of every employee and part they use.

Consumers put too much emphasis on reliability reports and totally ignore safety and performance. Like a bunch of lemmings they marched off in unison to buy Toyotas by the boat load only to be duped by the GM'ifying of Toyota. Suckers, every one.

You canot be the biggest and the best at what you do. Just look at McDonald's, they sell a lot of burgers but they are no where near the best tasting.


----------



## BmW745On19's (Aug 12, 2005)

The problem is that they tried to make things cheaper by making them all on a microchip, doing away with mechanical brakes, steering and accelerators, and in the process they cut corners on what should be most important: SAFETY.


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

BmW745On19's said:


> doing away with mechanical brakes, steering and accelerators, and in the process they cut corners on what should be most important: SAFETY.


BMWs have had electronic throttle since the mid '90s. Drive by wire throttle + sensors + computer control of the brakes and throttle is key to making the dynamic stability control work.  BMWs do sometimes have problems with the DSC. There are threads buried deep in the X3 forum. There is also a sticky in the X3 forum about software problems with the automatic transmission.

Electric assisted steering uses less fuel than hydraulic steering. Our MINI has electric steering. Not sure about other BMW products.

So what is going on? Possibly time pressure to bring a car to market without fixing every last bug? Cheap components. There is always pressure to pay less for all the parts. Media frenzy and fear feeding a viscous circle. The press is having a field day.

Minor detail---. The parking brake is mechanical. Mechanical service brakes haven't been used on a road car since the '50s.


----------



## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

I think it's more hype than substance. Toyotas have become appliances and that's why I haven't owned one since 1991. I don't think the recall issues are nearly as bad as the media and government makes them out to be. That hasn't stopped the personal injury law firms from their new commercials on daytime TV urging you to call them "if you or a loved one has been injured by the evil Toyota corporation."


----------



## Kzang (Apr 12, 2006)

Here is what I think...

They ( gov. and lot of buy only american resentful people ) are just blowing this out of proportion to make the Japanese car mfg less attractive to buy and make Ford, Chevy look better.

There have been tons of auto recalls from all kinds of Auto mfg in the last 20+ years and the spotlight on Toyota is just retarded.


----------



## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

Kzang said:


> Here is what I think...
> 
> They ( gov. and lot of buy only american resentful people ) are just blowing this out of proportion to make the Japanese car mfg less attractive to buy and make Ford, Chevy look better.
> 
> There have been tons of auto recalls from all kinds of Auto mfg in the last 20+ years and the spotlight on Toyota is just retarded.


No recalls have ever reached the level of Toyota's and to this extent with an empasis on safety.

Ford Explorer had tire issues.

Toyota/Lexus have brake, throttle, AND steering issues on vehicles built over the last 5 years. ALL of the issues are safety related. This is unprecedented.

This is not Toyota bashing. Jap car buyers will simply buy Hondas or something else.

I think the issue here, is the perception that Toyotas are reliable and safe. As with GM, the deterioration of Toyota started occuring about 10 years ago with faulty engines, transmissions, etc and migrated to safety problems. The EXACT same thing happened to the American brands when they got big.

You pay a premium to buy a Toyota/lexus over other brands, supposedly because of better quality. Now that can't be the reason any more.

My neighbors just purchased a Ford Fusion Hybrid over a Lexus HS becuase the Ford was $6k cheaper, more comfortable, better mileage, and better warranty. All this before any recall was annouced.


----------



## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

NetSpySD said:


> No recalls have ever reached the level of Toyota's and to this extent with an empasis on safety.
> 
> Toyota/Lexus have brake, throttle, AND steering issues on vehicles built over the last 5 years. ALL of the issues are safety related. This is unprecedented.


AFAIK, all mandated recalls (not the voluntary ones) are safety related.


----------



## NoMercy346 (Jan 13, 2009)

Boile said:


> AFAIK, all mandated recalls (not the voluntary ones) are safety related.


but some are safety related along the lines of "the heater/venting system may fail, causing the windows to fog up - fogged up windows can reduce visibility" while this is about cars smashing into things at WOT or failing to decelerate


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

NoMercy346 said:


> but some are safety related along the lines of "the heater/venting system may fail, causing the windows to fog up - fogged up windows can reduce visibility" while this is about cars smashing into things at WOT or failing to decelerate


Except the cars aren't routinely doing that.

There are millions of these cars on the road, and they're not all smashing into things at WOT nor are they failing to decelerate. Every manufacturer has issues like this - BMW had one on the 3 Series where airbags might not deploy in the event of an accident, for example.

Toyota's problems have only three causes - getting on the wrong side of the bureaucrats and the media (which in large part is because, despite their VAST investment in the US, they are still perceived as "foreign"), ambulance-chasing lawyers who now have a corporation with very deep pockets to fleece, and them being perceived by the marketplace in general as the gold standard for quality. And thus was created the perfect PR storm. After all, we _all_ like to see the big guys fall, right? Particularly those with the temerity to build and sell reliable cars that _people can actually afford_...

Well - despite all of this, they still remain the gold standard for quality. The vast majority of their equipment is well built and runs flawlessly - no one else makes as many cars with as few overall issues. No one else makes so many reliable cars that are affordable to so many, while still generally maintaining very high standards.

Bottom line - this is an lesson in how not to handle the media, rather than a lesson in how not to build a car.


----------



## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

swajames said:


> Except the cars aren't routinely doing that.
> 
> There are millions of these cars on the road, and they're not all smashing into things at WOT nor are they failing to decelerate. Every manufacturer has issues like this - BMW had one on the 3 Series where airbags might not deploy in the event of an accident, for example.
> 
> ...


I doubt many will call Toyota the gold standard any more after they denied/refused to issue recalls after over a year of trying from the NHTSA.

Don't blame our goverment and the press for toyota's arrogance. Christ they had a frickin year and did nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Steve Wozniack tried for the better part of a year to tell them but was ignored. Enough is enough.


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

NetSpySD said:


> I doubt many will call Toyota the gold standard any more after they denied/refused to issue recalls after over a year of trying from the NHTSA.
> 
> Don't blame our goverment and the press for toyota's arrogance. Christ they had a frickin year and did nothing. Absolutely nothing.
> 
> Steve Wozniack tried for the better part of a year to tell them but was ignored. Enough is enough.


Time will tell. History will be a better judge of which of us is right.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

mtbscott said:


> I think it's more hype than substance.





Andrew*Debbie said:


> Media Frenzy. CNN loves using the fear font.


Read the data guys (and gals). Toyota hired former NHTSA execs to "kill" complaints and investigations for years. I've had family in the auto business for almost half a century. The Japanese are profoundly proper in person and profoundly arrogant after. They truly think their sh*t don't stink. So it's about time the naive (with all due respect, you) hear the truth behind Toyota.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Updated to reflect the truth more accurately.


----------



## fuz (Feb 6, 2002)

Regardless I think the whole thing is turning into a which hunt more than accelerating any useful developments. Wonder if it's some kind of orchestrated distraction or union revenge given how large it's gotten. All I see every day is 'Toyota is at fault!' every time I read the auto news. It's like people need something, anything to be angry about as a hobby.


----------



## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Hyundai is the new Toyota. True story.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

dannyc9997 said:


> http://www.switchfires.com/news.htm
> 
> Hows this for a "cover up". Clearly you ignore the facts that I present, yet somehow expect me to just believe whatever you say.


Ford has covered up many issues...remember the Explorer Tire issue (Firestone as well). I'm not defending Ford in the least bit. But when that happened, there was a firestorm and even loyal Ford owners were not happy. It seems that with Toyota, the owners still choose to blindly support Toyota. It's like they are completely brainwashed. Amazing stuff really.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Article about Toyota putting "profits ahead of customer safety". Came out today:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35510079/ns/business-autos


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

How Toyota hired former govt agent (NHTSA agents) to kill investigations:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_09/b4168014733462.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/02/12/465561.html


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

thebmw said:


> Article about Toyota putting "profits ahead of customer safety". Came out today:
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35510079/ns/business-autos


I suspect you'd find similar instances at all manufacturers. In fact, I suspect BMW is in much the same position with the ongoing HPFP issue. One could be charitable and accept that BMW is simply taking time to consider the extent to which these failures do create _actual_ safety issues (which is essentially what Toyota was doing) or whether, alternatively, BMW is delaying taking more proactive action primarily because the alternative would likely create a significant cost. As an owner of a 335, it probably ought to concern you that your own car is potentially at risk due to HPFP issues, yet it appears that BMW isn't doing as much as perhaps it could to address the risk of failure in these engines with the HPFP.

Hindsight is always 20/20 in these matters, it's easy to look back and say what you could have and should have done. That said, here you're talking about a company that has sold _millions_ and _millions _of cars and was dealing with a number of user complaints that was statistically insignificant. They were also working with data that was potentially skewed (using insurance or accident data, for example, is risky as no one wants to admit that it may have been driver error that may have caused an incident). Not to say there aren't issues here, there are, but Toyota is doing what the entire industry would have done in the same circumstances.


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

1love said:


> ...they have recalled more vehicles at any 1 time than anyone else...


Toyota has significant platform and component sharing, and Toyota sells a lot of cars... Were a component or design that is common to a number of different models and brands to fail, it rather obviously stands to reason that there are going to be a larger number of recalls to the extent that the affected part happens to be present in a larger number of vehicles...


----------



## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

thebmw said:


> How Toyota hired former govt agent (NHTSA agents) to kill investigations:
> 
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_09/b4168014733462.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories
> 
> http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/02/12/465561.html


It doesnt make any sense how Toyota "bamboozled" the NHTSA in 2004, when none of the effected vehicles are model year 2004 or prior. Since the vehicle to problem ratio is so low, I seriously doubt many people with 2005 Avalons were reporting problems at that point.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

swajames said:


> I suspect you'd find similar instances at all manufacturers. In fact, I suspect BMW is in much the same position with the ongoing HPFP issue. One could be charitable and accept that BMW is simply taking time to consider the extent to which these failures do create _actual_ safety issues (which is essentially what Toyota was doing) or whether, alternatively, BMW is delaying taking more proactive action primarily because the alternative would likely create a significant cost. As an owner of a 335, it probably ought to concern you that your own car is potentially at risk due to HPFP issues, yet it appears that BMW isn't doing as much as perhaps it could to address the risk of failure in these engines with the HPFP.
> 
> Hindsight is always 20/20 in these matters, it's easy to look back and say what you could have and should have done. That said, here you're talking about a company that has sold _millions_ and _millions _of cars and was dealing with a number of user complaints that was statistically insignificant. They were also working with data that was potentially skewed (using insurance or accident data, for example, is risky as no one wants to admit that it may have been driver error that may have caused an incident). Not to say there aren't issues here, there are, but Toyota is doing what the entire industry would have done in the same circumstances.


Agree...again my main point about posting this info is to show all the brainwashed Toyota followers that their "perfect" company is far from that. In fact, they are a bunch of sleazy bastards, much in the same way many other big business people.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

dannyc9997 said:


> Since the vehicle to problem ratio is so low, I seriously doubt many people with 2005 Avalons were reporting problems at that point.


Again, I content that many Avalon buyers are not really refined or particular about cars and seem to be loyal to Toyota (of the Avalon owners I know, I can assure you that they didn't buy the car for its looks!) so those owners may overlook those problems because of loyalty or lack of awareness of problems secondary to their automotive aloofness.


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

thebmw said:


> Agree...again my main point about posting this info is to show all the brainwashed Toyota followers that their "perfect" company is far from that. In fact, they are a bunch of sleazy bastards, much in the same way many other big business people.


You're absolutely right that they've capitalized on it over the years - there's no question about that. This is clearly going to hurt them. My main point was really that they're essentially being hammered for doing what everyone else does (or did) in the same circumstances. I do still think, however, perhaps for some of the reasons you gave in your posts, that they're being to a higher standard than others. While I understand the general sentiment and why people may feel the way they do, I just feel it's a bit unfair. I don't drive a Toyota, but I do appreciate their ability to mass-produce a generally well-engineered car (their present quality issues notwithstanding).


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

swajames said:


> You're absolutely right that they've capitalized on it over the years - there's no question about that. This is clearly going to hurt them. My main point was really that they're essentially being hammered for doing what everyone else does (or did) in the same circumstances. I do still think, however, perhaps for some of the reasons you gave in your posts, that they're being to a higher standard than others. While I understand the general sentiment and why people may feel the way they do, I just feel it's a bit unfair. I don't drive a Toyota, but I do appreciate their ability to mass-produce a generally well-engineered car (their present quality issues notwithstanding).


I agree with you as well on all points. I wish people would learn more about cars and choose them with for their qualities, specs, and emotional passion instead of being brand hoars.


----------



## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

thebmw said:


> +1 except they were never "perfect" for reliability. They have already shown their true colors when Mr. Toyoda basically blew off the recalls, blew off the govts investigation, blew off the inquiry and questioning, took weeks to respond, etc.


And Honda not go far away from Toyota.
Remember transmission issue in TL, MDX, Odyssey, Pilot, Accord (V6) made between 2001 and 2003. Thousand and thousand Honda's and Acura's owner get screw up. 
And then if we look at our own E90 forum - every day some one reported issue with HPFP.
BMW start produce N54 engine in 2006 - 4 year later - no fix. Many drivers on their 2nd or 3rd pump.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

MB330 said:


> And Honda not go far away from Toyota.
> Remember transmission issue in TL, MDX, Odyssey, Pilot, Accord (V6) made between 2001 and 2003. Thousand and thousand Honda's and Acura's owner get screw up.
> And then if we look at our own E90 forum - every day some one reported issue with HPFP.
> BMW start produce N54 engine in 2006 - 4 year later - no fix. Many drivers on their 2nd or 3rd pump.


True...I've have so many problems with my BMWs, it's sickening. But, my underlying point is Toyotas (and Hondas, and other Japanese makes) are not perfect by any stretch (contrary to a lot of brainwashed loyal Japanese car owners who think they are "perfect").

I've posted this before: To be fair, Toyota fan boys are just as annoying as BMW fan boys. But at least BMWs beat Toyotas in virtually every other driver related specification.


----------



## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

MB330 said:


> And Honda not go far away from Toyota.
> Remember transmission issue in TL, MDX, Odyssey, Pilot, Accord (V6) made between 2001 and 2003. Thousand and thousand Honda's and Acura's owner get screw up.
> And then if we look at our own E90 forum - every day some one reported issue with HPFP.
> BMW start produce N54 engine in 2006 - 4 year later - no fix. Many drivers on their 2nd or 3rd pump.


 +1 People seem to forget that over 80% of a car dealers profits come from service AND REPAIRS.

There are no perfect cars. All have issues. Quality surveys are more about who is the best of the worst.


----------



## Kzang (Apr 12, 2006)

thebmw said:


> I've posted this before: To be fair, Toyota fan boys are just as annoying as BMW fan boys. *But at least BMWs beat Toyotas in virtually every other driver related specification*.


Spoken like a true BMW fanboy :thumbup:


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Kzang said:


> Spoken like a true BMW fanboy :thumbup:


Haha...Hey I take offense to that! Actually, I think a lot of cars (non-BMW) have a better driving experience and better styling than a lot of Toyota cars. I currently own and have in the past owned far more NON BMWs than BMWs.


----------



## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

My 330 is my first BMW - for more then 15 yrs I enjoyed Honda, Acura and Nissan. Never own a Toyota.
All of them had problems, some of them give me more problems then my 330.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

This is interesting. It describes how Toyota execs "laughed and rolled their eyes in disbelief" over safety claims.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100222/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall

MB330: I would get a Nissan (or Infiniti, Acura, Mitsubishi, etc) over Toyota too. They have more personality. It's like wine. You can get the one that gets you reliably drunk (Toyota), or get one that you enjoy that may or may not get you reliably drunk (most non Toyotas)!


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Another interesting link:

video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleration
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/...xpert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio/#continued


----------



## PBC///2.7 (Aug 14, 2008)

GM...is what is up.........


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

thebmw said:


> Another interesting link:
> 
> video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleration
> http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/...xpert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio/#continued


This one is just taking things to a new level altogther... It appears he has been wiring resistors into the mix to allegedly create unintended acceleration. He may as well have placed a brick on the gas pedal and made a similar claim. Here there may be some different shenanigans in play.

Here is Toyota's response. Frankly, I think they are remarkably restrained under the circumstances. It seems to me this is simply an idiot looking for TV coverage finding a TV station in ABC that's all too willing to jump on the bandwagon with little in the way of due diligence on the veracity of his claims...

*PRESS RELEASE*

Toyota's Statement in Regard to ABC News Story: Expert Recreates Sudden Acceleration in Toyota

Toyota spoke with Mr. Gilbert on February 16 in an effort to understand his concerns. During this discussion, Mr. Gilbert explained that he had connected a resistor between the output wires of the two accelerator pedal sensors on a Toyota Tundra. In other words, he had artificially introduced an abnormal connection between two otherwise independent signals coming from the accelerator pedal sensors. Mr. Gilbert advised Toyota that he believed that his intentional misdirection of these signals could cause the vehicle to accelerate unexpectedly.

In response to Mr. Gilbert's claim as communicated to Toyota, Toyota confirmed that what Mr. Gilbert described would not cause unintended acceleration to occur. In fact, under the abnormal condition described last week by Mr. Gilbert, if there is a short with low resistance between the two signals, the electronic throttle control system illuminates the "check engine" light and the vehicle enters into a fail-safe mode of engine idle operation. If there is a short with high resistance, outside the range of "check engine" light illumination, the accelerator pedal continues to be responsive to driver input and the vehicle will return to the idle condition when the foot is taken off of the accelerator pedal. Unintended acceleration would not occur.

After watching the story today on ABC News featuring Mr. Gilbert, Toyota was surprised to learn that Mr. Gilbert appears now to be making a different claim regarding the electronic throttle control system and in a vehicle other than as described to Toyota last week. Although it is difficult to tell from the footage used in the story, Mr. Gilbert appears to be introducing a different external and artificial method to manipulate the throttle. In order to set the record straight, Toyota welcomes the opportunity to evaluate the Toyota Avalon shown in today's story and the method by which Mr. Gilbert allegedly caused the vehicle to accelerate unintentionally. We welcome the attendance of ABC News at any such evaluation of this vehicle and Mr. Gilbert's testing.


----------



## NoMercy346 (Jan 13, 2009)

swajames said:


> This one is just taking things to a new level altogther... It appears he has been wiring resistors into the mix to allegedly create unintended acceleration. He may as well have placed a brick on the gas pedal and made a similar claim. Here there may be some different shenanigans in play.
> 
> Here is Toyota's response. Frankly, I think they are remarkably restrained under the circumstances. It seems to me this is simply an idiot looking for TV coverage finding a TV station in ABC that's all too willing to jump on the bandwagon with little in the way of due diligence on the veracity of his claims...
> 
> ...


IMO Mr. Gilbert wants to point out that there is no fail safe mode for that scenario on the Toyotas. Somewhere I read he tried the same on GM cars and the car threw a code and went into limp mode or had a brake override system installed. 
BTW: whats with the claim that 70% of the cars with SA complaints are not covered under the recalls?
The short produces the same symptoms of most SA incidents. Sudden acceleration, no fault codes and no clue as to what went wrong afterwards. Seeing that this is similar to what happened in the complaints, it is now up to investigators or engineers to find out whether this short scenario could happen in the real world and could be responsible for the SA. Total oversight on Toyotas behalf not to have a fail safe mode or a simple brake override to make sure this can't happen...


----------



## BLT (Jan 30, 2006)

I watched the clip, Gilbert said "if" so many times that I now feel his conclusions are questionable at best.


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

BLT said:


> I watched the clip, Gilbert said "if" so many times that I now feel his conclusions are questionable at best.


Right. And did you see at the end of the clip when they showed the tachometer charging up to the redline? Frankly, if an Avalon _could_ rev that quickly, _particularly when it is supposedly in gear_, I'd be driving one instead of my Porsche.

Here, it simply looks like Gilbert has wired up a bunch of electronics to tell the car to deliver full throttle (and thus simulate mashing the pedal into the carpet) whenever he makes the electrical connection. And he's wondering why no code was thrown? Because the car simply is doing what he told it to do - deliver full throttle...


----------



## BLT (Jan 30, 2006)

He had "modified" the car, that's quite different than finding a defective car that was showing those traits.


----------



## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

BLT said:


> He had "modified" the car, that's quite different than finding a defective car that was showing those traits.


If a modification reveals the absence of a fail safe, is that not an issue?


----------



## BLT (Jan 30, 2006)

NetSpySD said:


> If a modification reveals the absence of a fail safe, is that not an issue?


Oh course it is. I am old enough to remember the GM "sidesaddle" gas tanks that were a hazard. NBC couldn't get one to explode in a crash so the "modified" a truck with model rocket igniters to get the shot they wanted. I also remember the Audi SA problems; it turned out that when they place cameras in the car to see what was happening they found that the drivers were stomping on the accel pedal thinking it was the brake.
I don't know what the problems with Toyota actually are at this moment, I have just seen too many "rush to judgement" news shows in my life, so I don't take them at their word.


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

NetSpySD said:


> If a modification reveals the absence of a fail safe, is that not an issue?


Not necessarily. Not if the modification deliberately bypasses existing failsafes which were designed around the unmodified car, or if the modification creates a set of circumstances that are outside of normal, reasonable operating parameters.

I am confident that any car could be "modified" to create a safety issue. The question is whether the car as delivered to customers operates as designed and is safe. This "test" does not add anything to the debate - as I said above, it is tantamount to placing a brick on the gas pedal.


----------



## NoMercy346 (Jan 13, 2009)

On a blog someone posted that throttle by wire pedals are not potentiometer type sensors but hall sensors. Remembering physics class these can only measure movement not position. The ECU calculates the position of the pedal with the input of the hall sensor.
According to that comment, in the scenario of a short the sensors would measure an ever increasing push on the pedal even beyond the physical limitations of the pedal. Other cars will identify this as faulty operation while the Toyotas in absence of a fail safe feature will just go to WOT.

I don't know if thats true but it sounds kind of logical. Maybe someone else can shed some more light on the engineering and design aspect of this?

These days one can't say whats fact and whats hyped up by hysterical media. The ABC clip definitely shows staged footage with the engine reving in neutral and WOT accel sounds playing while you see the car just leisurely accelerating, probably to make it more dramatic to the average viewer. Doesn't prove that theres no substance behind Gilbert's calim. Let's see what comes out of this... At this point most of it is speculation.



swajames said:


> Not necessarily. *Not if the modification deliberately bypasses existing failsafes which were designed around the unmodified car, or if the modification creates a set of circumstances that are outside of normal, reasonable operating parameters. *


The fact that other manufacturers have fail-safe modes for these scenarios suggests that they believe these operating parameters are not that unlikely, even if their moto is better safe than sorry.


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

I believe the ABC story does not reflect the real world because we all know that Toyota owners don't know how to drive with WOT!


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

NoMercy346 said:


> The fact that other manufacturers have fail-safe modes for these scenarios suggests that they believe these operating parameters are not that unlikely, even if their moto is better safe than sorry.


Right, but again we don't know whether that is even an issue here. It would be possible to introduce all kind of shenanigans with a modern car given that virtually every major function is controlled by software. The question remains whether Gilbert has actually found a potential lacunae in Toyota's safety systems, or, as I believe is more likely, is manufacturing something that isn't actually a facsimile of a real-world issue to get himself on TV... The seemingly fabricated shots and the editorial license taken in the ABC report tells me that they were all too willing to ride shotgun here...


----------



## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

Well whatever the issues I hope Toyota gets them resolved soon.

These customers drive Toyotas for gosh sake. Haven't they endured enough pain? :rofl:


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

netspysd said:


> these customers drive toyotas for gosh sake. Haven't they endured enough pain? :rofl:


:rofl:


----------



## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Here is an article that describes Toyota's hubris better than I can:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/whattigerwoodsandtoyotahaveincommon


----------



## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

> NO CATALOGUE of this sort would be complete without an account of 60 Minutes's 1986 attack on the Audi 5000--perhaps the best-known and best-refuted auto-safety scare of recent years. The Audi, it seemed, was a car possessed by demons. It would back into garages, dart into swimming pools, plow into bank teller lines, everything but fly on broomsticks, all while its hapless drivers were standing on the brake -- or at least so they said.
> 
> "Sudden acceleration" had been alleged in many makes of car other than the Audi, and from the start many automotive observers were inclined to view it skeptically. A working set of brakes, they pointed out, can easily overpower any car's accelerator, even one stuck at full throttle. After accidents of this sort, the brakes were always found to be working fine. Such mishaps happened most often when the car was taking off from rest, and they happened disproportionately to short or elderly drivers who were novices to the Audi.
> 
> ...


Sound familiar?


----------



## PBC///2.7 (Aug 14, 2008)

none of them make cars any more....they all get their parts from the same places....GM has 49% of shares in Toyota if I remember right so after their "BAIL OUT' they have make them look good again...


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

PBC///2.7 said:


> none of them make cars any more....they all get their parts from the same places....GM has 49% of shares in Toyota if I remember right so after their "BAIL OUT' they have make them look good again...


You don't remember right. If GM did have a 49% stake in Toyota, it would not have ended up where it did when it did... You may be confusing GM's holding in the the now defunct NUMMI joint venture between them and Toyota with a stake in the parent corporation.


----------



## etc (Jul 15, 2008)

5-gen Camry with 4-cyl engine has catastrophic head gasket failure, often leading to engine replacement. Toy quotes 6K in repairs.

I sold my 02 Camry not waiting for it to show up, I had 115K mis and that's the mileage when it shows. There is a flood of complaints and no recall. IMO, this is far worse than the (maybe imaginary) acceleration issue.

Toy quality is a myth.

Read here more on head gasket issue, a design defect that's becoming obvious as 5th gen hits 100K miles.

http://www.camryforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4801


----------



## HugH (Apr 26, 2006)

Todays BusinessWeek has a very good article by car guru Ed Wallace:

WALLACE'S WORLD February 25, 2010, 3:42PM EST
The Toyota Witch Hunt
Much of the testimony from Congress's Toyota hearings is riveting and emotional but can't be trusted, writes Ed Wallace
http://www.businessweek.com/lifesty...0100225_403524.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories


----------



## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

HugH said:


> Todays BusinessWeek has a very good article by car guru Ed Wallace:
> 
> WALLACE'S WORLD February 25, 2010, 3:42PM EST
> The Toyota Witch Hunt
> ...


That is perhaps the best article I've seen on this issue. It is indeed a witch hunt, and Wallace makes some very reasonable points and asks some very pertinent questions.


----------



## HugH (Apr 26, 2006)

swajames said:


> That is perhaps the best article I've seen on this issue. It is indeed a witch hunt, and Wallace makes some very reasonable points and asks some very pertinent questions.


As usual, Ed Wallace does his homework before publishing anything under his name. A true journalist with over 40 years experience in the car industry! The voice of reason and common sense!


----------

