# I Fear For the Ask-A-Dealer Forum



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> If he worked 50 weeks a year, 5 days per week, that would be 4 BMW's per day. Average $750 over invoice per vehicle sold, that's over $750,000 just in commission. Doubt the dealership is paying for the assistants.


As you discovered and I mentioned previously, Neda is a top saleswoman.

And I have no doubt that Beverly Hills BMW is paying for her assistants. Why wouldn't they?

Not sure what you're calculating here ... her commission or the dealer revenue.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> As you discovered and I mentioned previously, Neda is a top saleswoman.
> 
> And I have no doubt that Beverly Hills BMW is paying for her assistants. Why wouldn't they?
> 
> Not sure what you're calculating here ... her commission or the dealer revenue.


One of President's men around here is solo, the other is with entourage.

The solo guy moves 400+ units each of past few years, and that is respectable with no assistant.

The entourage of the other gent are dealer employees.


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## beware_phog (Mar 7, 2003)

namelessman said:


> There seems to be no mod on this sub-forum, right?


I've never seen one.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

beware_phog said:


> I've never seen one.


Mods are around as threads and posts have been removed in the past, most recently around 2 weeks ago.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> This is the 2017 President's Club list. It is not just sales, but the 16 CA's on it(including Greg, Neda) very likely were top sales in US for 2016.
> 
> https://batxcr1.bmwcenternet.com/li.../2017_Presidents_Club_Winners_PIA_Program.pdf


Strong work posting, glad I'm not the only one using the proper Google search terms.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

kjboyd said:


> I don't own a horse. And I'm not concerned about trunk money. But I am concerned that our great sponsors and advisors took offense and you don't seem to give a rats ass.


What are you then concerned about then? How many vehicles have you purchased from sponsors? MJB is still active, Greg is busy selling vehicles, Adrian moved onto F&I, Jon retired, and Irv passed away. These are life events/promotions, not posting off a document that is accessible via a Google search.

It's not just this forum, as the PC Bimmerfest book isn't getting attention either.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Strong work posting, glad I'm not the only one using the proper Google search terms.


Bimmer purchases among family and friends usually gravitate towards the President's men around here.

As life stories go, entourage guy sold me the E39 17+ years ago. There was no entourage at the time, but the experience was like soup nazi. 

The solo guy sold me the F30 5 years ago, it was easy and quick.

And obviously, both had prices that beat/matched the other President's men and women from SoCal.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Bimmer purchases among family and friends usually gravitate towards the President's men around here.
> 
> As life stories go, entourage guy sold me the E39 17+ years ago. There was no entourage at the time, but the experience was like soup nazi.
> 
> ...


Posting = advertising/marketing. Why post if you have a 'black book' of repeat customers?

Do you mean this list of 2016 President Club?

Aimon Altaai

Bryan Baker

George Zhou

Greg Poland

John Bost

Mohammad Mirazimi

Neda Shahrokhi

Nicholas Soldo

Noah Schmerling

Robert Grass

Rocky Karimi

Shirley Chen

Steve Marx

Steve Pangelina

Victor Hung

Alex YI


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> Strong work posting, glad I'm not the only one using the proper Google search terms.


I'm going to be a naysayer, but not for any privacy or impropriety concern.

Archived data from 2 years ago isn't much good for anybody, considering how fast things change. Other than historical context.

If you can find a way to crack the code to get monthly regional programs :bow:

"Hatin' on the game, not the playuhs."


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> I'm going to be a naysayer, but not for any privacy or impropriety concern.
> 
> Archived data from 2 years ago isn't much good for anybody, considering how fast things change. Other than historical context.
> 
> ...


I can just personally ask my regional manager, as I don't share/post that information online.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ok, mines bigger than yours ...

*2017 National Top 25*

(_live data as of 2/1/2018)_

Neda Sharokhi
Robert Matalon
Andrew Einhorn
Aimon Altaai
Alex Yi
Wonki Min
Victoria Huang
Noah Schmerling
George Zhou
Simon Lee
Kimlon Scholz
Michael Gaimaro
*Greg Poland*
Victor Hung
Robert Grass
Rocky Karimi
Grigor Georgizian
Mohammad Mirazimi
James Stanford
Artrus Youman
Roger Carroll
Shirley Chen
Terrence Ching
Steve Marx
Kathleen Ruehman

Ibiza ... which one is your person? We might all want to get your deals!

Nameless ... same for you. They in the top 25?


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> I'm going to be a naysayer, but not for any privacy or impropriety concern.
> 
> Archived data from 2 years ago isn't much good for anybody, considering how fast things change. Other than historical context.
> 
> ...


History is my favorite subject. 

Inquisitive minds(with no insider track) can easily extend the historical context to current time by visiting their offices and see if the 2017 trophy will show up in March 2018. :thumbup:


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> I can just personally ask my regional manager, as I don't share/post that information online.


Well, tut tut, I say. Well done sir.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> Nameless ... same for you. They in the top 25?


Yes, both are still on the list. History repeats itself. :thumbup:

For that matter, kudos to Greg hanging out on this sub-forum.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> Ok, mines bigger than yours ...
> 
> *2017 National Top 25*
> 
> ...


MJB,

Not on the list, but I can't complain about my pricing, as my former CA is now new sales manager- so I just cut to the chase. Sale credit is given as a token to a new CA at the dealership.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> History is my favorite subject.
> 
> Inquisitive minds(with no insider track) can easily extend the historical context to current time by visiting their offices and see if the 2017 trophy will show up in March 2018. :thumbup:


Even better is via e-mail purchasing, not to get distracted by the paper weight trophy when sitting across the desk from a President.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Posting = advertising/marketing. Why post if you have a 'black book' of repeat customers?


Makes sense.

It looks like the President's men and women are extending that winning(!!!) streaks into 2017.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> It looks like the President's men and women are extending that winning(!!!) streaks into 2017.


The top 25 are contacting via e-mail/ personal phone call starting 6 months out upcoming lease returns to place a new order. They are not posting on Bimmerfest 'Ask a dealer' looking for new refferals/customers, but some 'festers are delusional that the Playbook drove em away. I call #fakenews.

Thanks for posting the current list, MJB, as the delusional festers should contact a top 25 + David & MJB.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Even better is via e-mail purchasing, not to get distracted by the paper weight trophy when sitting across the desk from a President.


Good points. The trophies did make it easy to identify these President's men.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Thanks for posting the current list, MJB, as the delusional festers should contact a top 25 + David & MJB.


That's exactly the point.

These are the men and women that can provide the best deals in US, so do make use of this info esp. for those in vicinity.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

(For the TL ; DR version of this post skip to the bottom after the dashed line)

Lotta focus on presidents club, top salespeople etc, and thats fine I guess, but those were not the people who were helping "john Q newb car buyer" evaluate their lease or purchase deal here at bimmerfest.That was being done by various regular joe bimmerfesters, assisted by data and information they got from some of those sponsor dealers (and people like ninong).

For the past year it or so that was mostly me, actually (thats not news to anyone, right?) Not ONLY me, but, "mostly" me. For a variety of reasons, I realized that I really dont need to do that anymore. One reason I did it, was because Ninong passed away, and I really didnt want his information and data to be lost here. Another was, I like helping people (but I certainly am not ghandi). I remember what it was like when I knew nothing about BMWs but dreamed of driving one. My first deal was not so good, then I found this website.

I got a ton of great information here, and learned a LOT, and wanted to give back. I did that, and really felt good helping people get into these cars as I love them, and remember what it was like to finally drive one. Over the past year and some, I realized a couple of different things... One is, where I am philosophically on some of these issues is in a different place than quite a few Bimmerfesters. I always knew that was the case, but certain things last year showed me that I was truly in the minority here on those topics.

Another one was, frankly, I felt I had "done my share" to try to help people here. I helped a LOT of people get into BMWs, many publicly , some privately. I felt like I did my share to pay it forward so to speak. So, I do a lot less deal review now. I notice that others who used to do that as "regular joe's" do a lot less of that too. I have no idea what their reasons are.

For anyone wondering (just in case), yeah I was upset about the playbook thing at first... but Ibiza and I had a nice offline conversation and I respect him a lot, so got over that a long time ago. Ibiza is also (for anyone paying attention) one of the people who takes the time to help people evaluate deals, and help newbies here as well. It appears to me that he does not get nearly enough credit for that stuff he does, but @Ibiza, "I" sure noticed it and I am sure the people you help noticed it too.

If dealers left, it was not because of one person, it was because there were several vocal people who attack the dealers whenever they post "real" information, like MJB saying that he starts his negotiations at (currently) .00192 right now. Thats real information, but lots of people will jump on him for that. Given that is the climate, why would others participate? Bash-a-dealer indeed.

What (in my opinion) should happen is, people should take that data for what it is, which is information they can use in their own negotiations, that help them back into numbers THEY can use for their own deals, without throwing shade or being rude to the dealers providing the information... but that rarely happens.

==============================================================================

Anyway, this is a really rambling way to say the following as my opinion (TL ; DR version inc)

1. Dealer reps were not the ones evaluating deals, it was mostly regular posters
2. Those regular posters have also dropped off for some reason (I gave mine)
3. Ibiza had nothing to do with at least my reason, and actually should be applauded for his work in helping newbies that he doesnt get recognized for
4. Too many people spend time dog piling on the few reps that post when they post "real" information about what is really going on. That likely has caused some of them to pull back except for the very brave MJBrown, who obviously loves helping people, even when they throw shade on him.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> Lotta focus on presidents club, top salespeople etc, and thats fine I guess, but those were not the people who were helping "john Q newb car buyer" evaluate their lease or purchase deal here at bimmerfest.That was being done by various regular joe bimmerfesters, assisted by data and information they got from some of those sponsor dealers (and people like ninong).


My take is that sponsors and CAs on this sub-forum have been curtailing the flow of info that used to make this sub-forum great.

E.g. when Jan(and now Feb?) $4000 incentives were posted on my thread, numerous festers publicly and privately sent their thank you. The purpose of that thread is not to solicit thank you, it is to put forth info that festers can use.

Similarly, making festers aware of President's club list is to provide info that festers can use.

Evaluating lease numbers is one way to help fellow festers, but* those evaluations become meaningless if the best case cap cost is not known(while MF and RV are known)*.

And nailing down the cap cost used to be bread and butter on this sub-forum, but that is not the case in the past year or two.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> This is the 2017 President's Club list. It is not just sales, but the 16 CA's on it(including Greg, Neda) very likely were top sales in US for 2016.
> 
> https://batxcr1.bmwcenternet.com/li.../2017_Presidents_Club_Winners_PIA_Program.pdf


Thanks for sharing this namelessman! :thumbup:

I noticed that among the sixteen on that list, no BMW new vehicle CA from Washington DC or Baltimore area dealerships achieved President's Club status in 2017. This region is one of the largest and most competitive markets for BMW automobiles in the world, so I find this quite surprising.

MJBrown62, in the list of National Top 25 CAs (thank you for posting this!), do you know if there are any dealerships in Maryland or Northern Virginia represented?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> (For the TL ; DR version of this post skip to the bottom after the dashed line)
> 
> Lotta focus on presidents club, top salespeople etc, and thats fine I guess, but those were not the people who were helping "john Q newb car buyer" evaluate their lease or purchase deal here at bimmerfest.That was being done by various regular joe bimmerfesters, assisted by data and information they got from some of those sponsor dealers (and people like ninong).
> 
> ...


@jj, thanks for the feedback and your appreciated also. I'm not going any where, unless the mods throw me out, and I will continue to assist ya all. Personally, in the past I would dip in and out to the forum around when I was getting ready for a new lease, but with the drop off in CA participation has created a void that is being now being filled by fester comments on 'Ask-a-dealer'.

MJB is very much appreciated and I respect his MF, as it's a business decision how his center is structuring lease deals as it's a for-profit business.

The personal attacks have also increased recently, as this forum is for BMW information sharing, but it also reflects how divided our country is politically- Trump had no quam to approve release of the Nunes memo similar to posting of the Playbook.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

gkr778 said:


> Thanks for sharing this namelessman! :thumbup:
> 
> I noticed that among the sixteen on that list, no BMW new vehicle CA from Washington DC or Baltimore area dealerships achieved President's Club status in 2017. This region is one of the largest and most competitive markets for BMW automobiles in the world, so I find this quite surprising.
> 
> MJBrown62, in the list of National Top 25 CAs (thank you for posting this!), do you know if there are any dealerships in Maryland or Northern Virginia represented?


I would suspect the volume is spread out amoung lots of CA's and as a result their individual numbers are diluted unlike Neda who has an entourage like Kim Kardashian.

For fun, we should contact each of the top 25 for a 'skinny' ED/PCD deal to compare the numbers.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Yes, both are still on the list. History repeats itself. :thumbup:
> 
> For that matter, kudos to Greg hanging out on this sub-forum.


Amen to that. I'm sure any given Saturday his morning is a lot busier than mine.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

jjrandorin said:


> Lotta focus on presidents club, top salespeople etc, and thats fine I guess, but those were not the people who were helping "john Q newb car buyer" evaluate their lease or purchase deal here at bimmerfest. That was being done by various regular joe bimmerfesters, assisted by data and information they got from some of those sponsor dealers (and people like ninong).
> 
> For the past year it or so that was mostly me, actually (thats not news to anyone, right?) Not ONLY me, but, "mostly" me. For a variety of reasons, I realized that I really dont need to do that anymore. One reason I did it, was because Ninong passed away, and I really didnt want his information and data to be lost here. Another was, I like helping people (but I certainly am not ghandi). I remember what it was like when I knew nothing about BMWs but dreamed of driving one. My first deal was not so good, then I found this website.





Ibiza said:


> @jj, thanks for the feedback and your appreciated also. I'm not going any where, unless the mods throw me out, and I will continue to assist ya all. Personally, in the past I would dip in and out to the forum around when I was getting ready for a new lease, but with the drop off in CA participation has created a void that is being now being filled by fester comments on 'Ask-a-dealer'.


jjrandorin and Ibiza, thank you for sharing information and helping Bimmerfest members evaluate deals and vehicles. Your efforts support what Jon Shafer wanted Bimmerfest to be all about - "Bringing the BMW Community Together". :thumbup:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> The personal attacks have also increased recently, as this forum is for BMW information sharing, but it also reflects how divided our country is politically- Trump had no quam to approve release of the Nunes memo similar to posting of the Playbook.


This thread is getting colorful. 

There are lots of changes on bimmer forums, a big part of those changes is driven by how BMWNA and BMWAG do business.

Past strategies and common wisdom do need to adjust to the latest changes.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> This thread is getting colorful.
> 
> There are lots of changes on bimmer forums, a big part of those changes is driven by how BMWNA and BMWAG do business.
> 
> Past strategies and common wisdom do need to adjust to the latest changes.


It's otherwise know as a 'Ceist and Desist' letter that BMW NA's attorneys have been subjecting the forums to. Recently the MF was banned from being posted by the CA's on Bimmerpost M3/M4 section. I created a spreadsheet that trended the past months published advertised finance rates and found that a rough estimate is adding 0.3% onto the published finance rate and divide by 2400 to calculate rough MF. PS we know it's not 0.00192.

Thread: How To Roughly Calculate Lease Money Factor http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445222


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> It's otherwise know as a 'Ceist and Desist' letter that BMW NA's attorneys have been subjecting the forums to. Recently the MF was banned from being posted by the CA's on Bimmerpost M3/M4 section. I created a spreadsheet that trended the past months published advertised finance rates and found that a rough estimate is adding 0.3% onto the published finance rate and divide by 2400 to calculate rough MF. PS we know it's not 0.00192.
> 
> Thread: How To Roughly Calculate Lease Money Factor http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445222


Cease and Desist.

I like what one Bimmerposter suggested. Just use Leasematic and plug in the variables they are providing online. Then change the money factor until you get the posted payment.

Voila, no need for CAs to have to divulge "sensitive info."

Now if there was a way you could calculate trunk money ...

mjb


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> Cease and Desist.
> 
> I like what one Bimmerposter suggested. Just use Leasematic and plug in the variables they are providing online. Then change the money factor until you get the posted payment.
> 
> ...


Excuse my grammar.

Going back to your previous post that your MF is 0.00192, how is your Center honoring the BMW USA website special lease offer if the 'buy rate' money factor is used to advertise the monthly payment? The answer is probably in the trunk.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> Going back to your previous post that your MF is 0.00192, how is your Center honoring the BMW USA website special lease offer if the 'buy rate' money factor is used to advertise the monthly payment?


We're full disclosure. In summary I say something like

"We will provide the same structure that BMW suggests for discount and cash down. Just like a mortgage broker, BMW allows Centers to mark up the money factor by up to 0.0040 in order to compensate our finance managers and to add a little profit to offset the great discount you got on the price of the car."

"I assure you it is not a 'bait and switch.' BMW can make this offer as you can build this exact car and the dealer can honor the lower money factor. But as you see, Mr. Customer, the discount they are suggesting for this offer is not $500 over invoice (or $500 under), it is x% off MSRP. We'd consider offering a lower rate if you would consider a lesser discount, as BMW suggests with this offer. That sounds fair, doesn't it?"

And remember, the fine print says subject to dealer participation.



Ibiza said:


> The answer is probably in the trunk.


 Lol


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> We're full disclosure. In summary I say something like
> 
> "We will provide the same structure that BMW suggests for discount and cash down. Just like a mortgage broker, BMW allows Centers to mark up the money factor by up to 0.0040 in order to compensate our finance managers and to add a little profit to offset the great discount you got on the price of the car."
> 
> ...


Can a customer negotiate the MF 'bump' with the F&I manager as the $925 bank fee (lease documentation fee) is already considered income for that department under the 2017 Dealer Accounting Manual:

Subject: F & I Income Accounts: 8262, 430, 450, 481, 630, 650, 681, 682

Date: 1/1/2017

Dealerships earn income on various products and services sold to new vehicle buyers. Examples include: 
x Finance income on loans processed through the dealership. 
x Lease documentation fees. 
x Insurance premiums for credit life insurance.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> Can a customer negotiate the MF 'bump' with the F&I manager as the $925 bank fee (lease documentation fee) is already considered income for that department under the 2017 Dealer Accounting Manual:
> 
> Subject: F & I Income Accounts: 8262, 430, 450, 481, 630, 650, 681, 682
> 
> ...


You can always negotiate the MF, but it will happen with the CA/SM before it hits the FM. Most FMs will kick it back to the SM/CA and move on to the next deal. It depends on the store policy/approach.

BMWs Lease Acquisition Fee is not negotiable and there is no markup (used to be, but no longer for quite some time.) The "Lease Documentation Fee" mentioned above is the usual dealer doc fee.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> You can always negotiate the MF, but it will happen with the CA/SM before it hits the FM. Most FMs will kick it back to the SM/CA and move on to the next deal. It depends on the store policy/approach.
> 
> BMWs Lease Acquisition Fee is not negotiable and there is no markup (used to be, but no longer for quite some time.) The "Lease Documentation Fee" mentioned above is the usual dealer doc fee.


Thanks for the responses, as it's insight for other festers.

The CA/SM receives their compensation/incentive when the 'deal closes', but the F&I staff, with the 0.0004 mark-up, is probably paid monthly by FS back to the Center tied into the customers lease payment date. The insurance products sold by F&I is probably their incentive compensation. The lease mark-up (0.0004) payment is probably held in the main operating account like you said before to keep the lights on, such as payment of the mortgage and other monthly operating expenses. An other payment back to the Center is under the AMP program by NA.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> Thanks for the responses, as it's insight for other festers.
> 
> The CA/SM receives their compensation/incentive when the 'deal closes', but the F&I staff, with the 0.0004 mark-up, is probably paid monthly by FS back to the Center tied into the customers lease payment date. The insurance products sold by F&I is probably their incentive compensation. The lease mark-up (0.0004) payment is probably held in the main operating account like you said before to keep the lights on, such as payment of the mortgage and other monthly operating expenses. An other payment back to the Center is under the AMP program by NA.


More arcane details of the auto retailing business. Lender agreements nearly always have a split of the additional mark-up with the dealer, with the major portion going to the bank.

So if the mark up creates an extra $1,000 of "interest/rent," the dealer gets the smaller portion. Say it's a 70/30 split, or 75/25. $750 goes to BMWFS, $250 to the dealer.

F&I managers get paid by their dealer. The comp % can vary, but 15% to 20% is common. So they get $50 of actual pay. The balance goes to net profit on the transaction.


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## Der_Kommissar (Aug 16, 2016)

Informative thread- thanks go to all who have participated. Seems there's still some passion here for BMW and for helping the future and current customers. I've only been around a year or so, so I don't have enough context to fully measure the drop, but it does seem like there's less straight up information here as BMW has changed how it does business. I think that's not really the fault of the posters or the forum- It's just BMW getting slightly wiser to the internet. Well, social media at least, as Ibiza has pointed out. To the extent that there's still anyone here helping to support the culture that makes owning a BWM special, I say thanks. I was pretty afraid of leasing until I started following this forum frequently, and I thank all of you (especially JJ and MJB) for helping it to make sense to me. JJ, as a little who has benefited from reading your posts, I hope you continue to assist others like myself. I've used what I've learned from you to jump into other places, like Reddit, where there was less guidance than here. Times are changing, but hopefully this forum continues to find a way to help people find their way into the BMW experience.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> Cease and Desist.
> 
> I like what one Bimmerposter suggested. Just use Leasematic and plug in the variables they are providing online. Then change the money factor until you get the posted payment.
> 
> ...


To add to this, my understanding is that the posted lease deals always reflect a fully marked up MF. Is this correct, Mike? Your response to Ibiza seems to indicate that my understanding is incorrect. Just asking for clarification.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> To add to this, my understanding is that the posted lease deals always reflect a fully marked up MF. Is this correct, Mike? Your response to Ibiza seems to indicate that my understanding is incorrect. Just asking for clarification.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


@Alpine

Actually, its the opposite. At least for as long as I have been closely following Lease deals / Money factors monthly (which is approximately October of 2015 through now ), the lease offers always have the base rate money factor in them. They also normally have a fairly basically equipped car that dealerships may have "1 or 2" of configured exactly like (if that many), and also normally assume a few thousand dollars "down payment" (normally around 3k or so, until you get to the 6,7s).


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## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

jjrandorin said:


> @Alpine
> 
> Actually, its the opposite. At least for as long as I have been closely following Lease deals / Money factors monthly (which is approximately October of 2015 through now ), the lease offers always have the base rate money factor in them. They also normally have a fairly basically equipped car that dealerships may have "1 or 2" of configured exactly like (if that many), and also normally assume a few thousand dollars "down payment" (normally around 3k or so, until you get to the 6,7s).


And to add to JJ's sage advice, by knowing all the working numbers you can almost always do better than what is listed on the website. As MJ indicated earlier, the website assumes a discount from MSRP...whereas we here always say work from invoice minus all incentives plus what you feel is a reasonable profit.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Local dealers "survive" on F30 invoice plus deals, because the X5 deals have been MSRP minus for a while. Plus the markups on M cars when brand new, plus the ten i8 sold at $100k markup each(easy $1m for the dealer).
> 
> So how can buy side take it seriously when sell side complains about dealer costs?
> 
> And let's not get into the monthly/quarterly/year end quota bonuses.


Because your math is assumptions, ours is real. That's why.

We sold zero i8s at more than sticker. We sold our last two near invoice because no one wants them.

I'll step aside now, as this has got to a point in the discussion where hyperbolic assumptions of profit drive the way consumers believe we should sell cars.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> What mark-up on M cars? Only M2 is selling at MRSP excluding the new M5(G90).


Correct. The only M-cars being sold at MSRP less are X5 Ms. X6 M, M3 and M4s are invoice plus from most buyers. The M2 is MSRP



Ibiza said:


> i8 is RIP status, as it won't be replaced after this current 7 year life cycle. It was a one hit wonder the first 1-2 years, just look at the monthly sales numbers.


Just posted on that. We have to find buyers. It's usually our top volume buyers, and they've had one already, so it's a dying model.



Ibiza said:


> There is the MACO and training/service fee that is 'baked' into invoice, this 'funny' money helps with the dealership overhead, especially when doing PCD and BMW NA is covering the delivery service cost.


Not sure how it's funny money when they are part of the invoice we pay. We are paying into regional advertising and cooperative advertising programs which are often split. So this is not a credit on the books.

In the long run I don't mind anyone assuming that there is more profit to the dealership available on any given transaction. That's probably true in most cases. But when it gets to assuming anything beyond the actual transaction profit, then you need to fold in all the costs associated with doing business.

You can't just oversimplify perceived profit without looking at expenses.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> Because your math is assumptions, ours is real. That's why.
> 
> We sold zero i8s at more than sticker. We sold our last two near invoice because no one wants them.
> 
> I'll step aside now, as this has got to a point in the discussion where hyperbolic assumptions of profit drive the way consumers believe we should sell cars.


What was real in your market may not be real in others, and vice versa?

E.g. your 1% MF markup will not go unnoticed around here.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> What was real in your market may not be real in others, and vice versa?
> 
> E.g. your 1% MF markup will not go unnoticed around here.


I'm not a sponsor, and when asked privately for a quote I provide a very straightforward answer. Which has resulted in very few Bimmerfest sales (count on 1 hand).

And that's OK. My store has a different approach/strategy/profit goal than others, and that's the way it is.

It hasn't stopped me from contributing yet, and won't in the future.

But to address your first comment; yes it varies greatly by market. I am sure there is a financial tipping point when selling at or into holdback at large volumes makes sense. And I'm sure the top dealers, especially in SoCal and FL, have made that work.

But that's why not all deal offers will be the same. It's not a level of nefariousness or secrecy or profiteering, it's what the dealer deems necessary based on their balance sheet.

We are a for-profit, brick and morter business.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> I'm not a sponsor, and when asked privately for a quote I provide a very straightforward answer. Which has resulted in very few Bimmerfest sales (count on 1 hand).
> 
> And that's OK. My store has a different approach/strategy/profit goal than others, and that's the way it is.
> 
> ...


Candid discussion brings forth mutual understanding, does it not? 

It is exactly right that a tipping point exists, and dealers(and BMW/Audi/MB etc, etc) in different markets adjust accordingly.

It is a chicken and egg problem, e.g. it requires certain volume to dip into hold back, but no dipping into trunk/interest rate markup holds back(no punt intended) volume. 

From another perspective, all local dealers(of most brands) are chain owned(some chains smaller than others), so the fixed costs per store very likely can be amortized across multiple stores, and they can go for reduced margin per unit but still stay profitable with increased volume.

It is surprising Seattle does not have large volume as NorCal/SoCal, does it mean all those MS and AMZN employees do not like BMW's?


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Candid discussion brings forth mutual understanding, does it not?


I hope that to be the case. Somedays I'm not so sure!



namelessman said:


> From another perspective, all local dealers(of most brands) are chain owned(some chains smaller than others), so the fixed costs per store very likely can be amortized across multiple stores, and they can go for reduced margin per unit but still stay profitable with increased volume.


Again, it's hard to generalize. If a dealer group has centralized cost centers, like a back office admin staff for all stores, then sure. But again, using our center, we are part of Lithia, and have certain shared expenses with all Lithia stores. But we carry our own admin staff, have our own cost for the dirt and steel, etc.



namelessman said:


> It is surprising Seattle does not have large volume as NorCal/SoCal, does it mean all those MS and AMZN employees do not like BMW's?


We don't have the population base. And the MSoft and Amazon customers are forum fanatics and are OK flying out of town to get a deal under invoice less incentives. We do our share.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> We don't have the population base. And the MSoft and Amazon customers are forum fanatics and are OK flying out of town to get a deal under invoice less incentives. We do our share.


Just say one day the dealer is willing to risk some short term profits but start to do invoice less incentives.

It may turn the tide and all those MSFT/AMZN customers will head to you.

If it does not work, the dealer can always go back to the old ways.


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## innovativeit (Sep 30, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> I'm not a sponsor, and when asked privately for a quote I provide a very straightforward answer. Which has resulted in very few Bimmerfest sales (count on 1 hand).
> 
> And that's OK. My store has a different approach/strategy/profit goal than others, and that's the way it is.
> 
> ...


1) I'm confident that your experience of having only one sale coming from Bimmerfest is one of the primary reasons that we have seen so many CAs pull back from this forum. It ceased being "Ask a Dealer" a long time ago. I have always wondered why the typical expectation was to ask CAs to "tell me how to reduce the price of the car I'm buying from you".

2) Having had the opportunity to work with a few stores at the back office level, I know that some stores actually establish a budget objective of limiting their New Car Department's loss to a specific number. I assume that, at some point, the store has to draw the line on the number of "skinny" or losing deals it makes.

3) I greatly enjoy and appreciate the insight and information that you and JJ have provided to this forum. I am concerned how the major contributors, including those who came before you, eventually get worn out by the experience.

4) The above comments represent my personal opinions and are not an invitation to engage in a "back and forth" with anyone.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

"I have always wondered why the typical expectation was to ask CAs to "tell me how to reduce the price of the car I'm buying from you".

Do check how Jon operated the forum from the beginning, an example thread as below from 2002.

That kind of interaction on the forum still existed a few years back, but not any more.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6645


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> "I have always wondered why the typical expectation was to ask CAs to "tell me how to reduce the price of the car I'm buying from you".
> 
> Do check how Jon operated the forum from the beginning, an example thread as below from 2002.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this. We learn that the same tension we are exploring now has existed for many years. Those CAs who are willing to respond to queries quickly come up to a line we want them to cross -- let us NEVER FORGET what we are asking of these folks. No matter how you slice it, our quest for info is motivated by our desire to get the best possible deal. Which means, we are, indeed, asking a car salesperson how to take money out of their pocket. How helpful would you be if someone came up to you and asked, "Will you give me the alarm code and keys to your house?" Good to remember.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Thanks for posting this. We learn that the same tension we are exploring now has existed for many years. Those CAs who are willing to respond to queries quickly come up to a line we want them to cross -- let us NEVER FORGET what we are asking of these folks. No matter how you slice it, our quest for info is motivated by our desire to get the best possible deal. Which means, we are, indeed, asking a car salesperson how to take money out of their pocket. How helpful would you be if someone came up to you and asked, "Will you give me the alarm code and keys to your house?" Good to remember.


What was Jon's intention of this sub-forum then? As 'Ask-A-Dealer' has always been about obtaining the invoice pricing sheets, buy MF, and residuals before contacting your local CA.

Should we be asking about the Manufackor Individual ordering process, to post all the available exterior individual colors, interior leather and trim from the Individual catalog? Or which interior leather do they prefer when ordering Le Man's Blue on a M4 coupé?


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> @Alpine
> 
> Actually, its the opposite. At least for as long as I have been closely following Lease deals / Money factors monthly (which is approximately October of 2015 through now ), the lease offers always have the base rate money factor in them. They also normally have a fairly basically equipped car that dealerships may have "1 or 2" of configured exactly like (if that many), and also normally assume a few thousand dollars "down payment" (normally around 3k or so, until you get to the 6,7s).


Thanks for the clarification. I never paid attention to the lease specials so I was wrong in my assumption.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Just say one day the dealer is willing to risk some short term profits but start to do invoice less incentives.
> 
> It may turn the tide and all those MSFT/AMZN customers will head to you.
> 
> If it does not work, the dealer can always go back to the old ways.


It's hard to turn that ship once it's left the dock.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> It is surprising Seattle does not have large volume as NorCal/SoCal, does it mean all those MS and AMZN employees do not like BMW's?


BMW products are unremarkable for folks in Seattle. They go for stuff from their hometown manufacturer Boeing! :rofl:



















or maybe another hometown manufacturer, Paccar - Kenworth:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> What was Jon's intention of this sub-forum then? As 'Ask-A-Dealer' has always been about obtaining the invoice pricing sheets, buy MF, and residuals before contacting your local CA.
> 
> Should we be asking about the Manufackor Individual ordering process, to post all the available exterior individual colors, interior leather and trim from the Individual catalog? Or which interior leather do they prefer when ordering Le Man's Blue on a M4 coupé?


That sounds like a good point, given that Ask-A-Dealer no longer discusses invoice, MF, RV, incentives and such, let's start to redefine Ask-A-Dealer for questions on how Coral Red leather match with Jet Black exterior color cue, how the ambient light enhances the oyster inlay on Burl Walnut Wood .... etc, etc.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> It's hard to turn that ship once it's left the dock.


It is all in the mind.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

gkr778 said:


> BMW products are unremarkable for folks in Seattle. They go for stuff from their hometown manufacturer Boeing! :rofl:
> 
> ....
> or maybe another hometown manufacturer, Paccar - Kenworth:


That's before Microsoft start shipping self driving cars, and Amazon starts selling their driver-less delivery vans to employees.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> That sounds like a good point, given that Ask-A-Dealer no longer discusses invoice, MF, RV, incentives and such, let's start to redefine Ask-A-Dealer for questions on how Coral Red leather match with Jet Black exterior color cue, how the ambient light enhances the oyster inlay on Burl Walnut Wood .... etc, etc.


The ask a dealer section DID discuss all that stuff (and still does)... just not posted by the dealer reps.

Even in the thread you posted (from 2002) jon's quote is as such:



Jon Shafer said:


> *I a settlement agreement designed to keep my a$$ out of HOT H20, I have agreed to **not** post confidential "buy rates" in any public forum...
> *
> With BMWFS, there are 3 tiers from which your rate will be determined:
> 
> ...


So, "pressure" from up above to not disclose that information by the CAs was present waay back in 2002. How is that different than right now, exactly?


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> It is all in the mind.


You are correct ... the mind of the consumer. It's not just forum people that know which dealers are winning the race to the bottom. I hear it every day.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> The ask a dealer section DID discuss all that stuff (and still does)... just not posted by the dealer reps.
> ....
> So, "pressure" from up above to not disclose that information by the CAs was present waay back in 2002. How is that different than right now, exactly?


When all that stuff is discussed by non-dealer reps, the info is not as up-to-date as dealer reps, e.g. $4000 incentive in January was not mentioned until late in the month.

Jon took lots of heat for providing MF/RV/incentives info(many of his gems were deleted per mandate from BMWNA?), but those glimpses provided lots of insights to festers at the time, insights that prove to be still useful nowadays.

There has been similar level of activities since then and CAs came and went, but the last year or two the forum became(and still is) void of dealer participation. mjb is a great trooper to stick around, nonetheless he is not immune to gag order :[


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> ... That's not the case in other markets as determined by the transaction prices(without much or any negotiation) of those other markets.


You are correct that markets can drive pricing and FMV.

What isn't "fair" is when clients use pricing that is available in high volume markets, like LA/SoCal and believe that smaller volume, differing markets like greater Seattle should match that pricing.

And if we don't, we're either "hiding trunk money," or not being fully transparent, or other negative connotations. The reality is that we could disclose all of the monies available, but still choose not to do those deals.

That's the difference.

And I did just this yesterday with a client wanting 20% off. I told him that with 5.95% margin on his invoice, and 5% holdback, and the trunk if he was a cash buyer (which he wasn't, he wanted to lease), we still couldn't do 20% off. And that we wouldn't do anything under cost before incentives.

It was fully transparent, but didn't get me a deal.

He said he will contact the LA dealer his cousin knows ...

Such is the life in a smaller market. Which is quite a few of us out there.

It's not a cry for pity. And it's not to dissuade clients from seeking deals wherever they want. It's merely me defending the position that holding onto revenue is not equal to being a "nefarious dealer."


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> You are correct that markets can drive pricing and FMV.
> 
> What isn't "fair" is when clients use pricing that is available in high volume markets, like LA/SoCal and believe that smaller volume, differing markets like greater Seattle should match that pricing.
> 
> ...


And the LA dealer his cousin knows is gonna get him 20% off????

My experience is that, indeed, here in the greater Los Angeles area, which is waaay over-stored with BMW Centers, and other brand dealers as well, that thin, aggressive deals are, indeed easier to find. But other than the rare one-off, right place at the right moment deal, I'm fairly confident that competitive deals are available even in the hinterlands of Seattle.

If the cousin with the hot LA dealer comes up with solid numbers on a real car, I'm betting Mr. MJB could get very close to delivering that same car for close-enough numbers. But, yeah, there are folks that will twist like pretzels to save a grand. I've done it. But not so much anymore as the value of my heartbeats has increased (scarcity adds value). With age comes wisdom.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> You are correct that markets can drive pricing and FMV.
> 
> What isn't "fair" is when clients use pricing that is available in high volume markets, like LA/SoCal and believe that smaller volume, differing markets like greater Seattle should match that pricing.
> 
> ...


That's correct, FMV from one market does not apply to other market and vice versa.

Do note that when some travel 1130 miles from Seattle to LA to get that 20% off MSRP, it speaks volume about [email protected]

At the time, the fact that your dealer is still in business indicates that there are enough customers to support Seattle's FMV, so in my mind there is no loss for everyone involved.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> That's correct, FMV from one market does not apply to other market and vice versa.
> 
> Do note that when some travel 1130 miles from Seattle to LA to get that 20% off MSRP, it speaks volume about [email protected]


I don't know that there is actually a 20% off offer out there ...



namelessman said:


> At the time, the fact that your dealer is still in business indicates that there are enough customers to support Seattle's FMV, so in my mind there is no loss for everyone involved.


I agree with you that we can be profitable and survive. But losing local business to out-of-market dealers impacts our scorecard with BMWNA and also our overall volume. Profitable *and *growing is the goal.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> You are correct that markets can drive pricing and FMV.
> 
> What isn't "fair" is when clients use pricing that is available in high volume markets, like LA/SoCal and believe that smaller volume, differing markets like greater Seattle should match that pricing.
> 
> ...


As @Namlessmam mentioned in a response to this post driving 1,130 miles from LA to Seattle, would your Center be interested in a Courtney Deliverly? After all the vehicle will be serviced at BMW of Seattle and the service department will record revenue from BMW NA on this deal, just sales will miss out on the purchase.

What percentage of vehicles that are being serviced under warranty are not originating from BMW of Seattle?


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## HPIA4v2 (Mar 30, 2006)

I got unsolicited PMs from fellow M3ers on the other forums sensing my slight frustration getting allocation back in September, good guys.
Both claim have done either trucking or courtesy deliveries, and gave their CA names to me. I sent email to those CA out of state, both said "....do you know your local dealer is rather pissed at you for not ordering car from them..." so from that sentence I say courtesy delivery is a unicorn. Trucking car will cost me $1k thats' silly as well, so low and behold, December came and incentive went crazy. I ended up ordering my car locally albeit stingy discount but incentives make up for it.

I am not sure dealer can get good statistic on how many cars they sold will be serviced by them. Too many variables, all service dept is commodity to the mass. for example, I am not 100% happy with the dealer servicing my cars but I can't get my car serviced in Seattle (many claims have very good service), that cross tool road and bridge, drive in traffic both ways twice (assuming I get a loaner). While the other dealer is one stone throw away from me. And hell sure I am not burning one of my weekend day to get my car serviced either. But I bet service is important revenue for dealer, maybe more so than selling cars.


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## kyfdx (Aug 4, 2003)

@MJBrown62 will probably never sell me a car. The only reason for me to leave my regional area, would be for a killer deal, and as he mentioned, that's not the way his dealership works. And, why should they? The Seattle area has a deserved reputation as a tough market to get a good car deal. Why cut a Bimmerfest member a great deal, when no one else in Seattle gets one?

But, he is a font of information and a boon to this forum. Personally, he saved me $350 on the purchase of a maintenance extension, just by giving me the actual MSRP (not the dealer cost, just the MSRP). Just having the information allowed me to negotiate with confidence, with my local dealer. 

On another note, if you can't find the base money factor, without asking on this forum, you aren't trying hard enough. ;-)


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Not sure if it is too late but maybe I can help?


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

kyfdx said:


> @MJBrown62 will probably never sell me a car. The only reason for me to leave my regional area, would be for a killer deal, and as he mentioned, that's not the way his dealership works. And, why should they? The Seattle area has a deserved reputation as a tough market to get a good car deal. Why cut a Bimmerfest member a great deal, when no one else in Seattle gets one?
> 
> But, he is a font of information and a boon to this forum. Personally, he saved me $350 on the purchase of a maintenance extension, just by giving me the actual MSRP (not the dealer cost, just the MSRP). Just having the information allowed me to negotiate with confidence, with my local dealer.
> 
> On another note, if you can't find the base money factor, without asking on this forum, you aren't trying hard enough. ;-)


Current local market conditions rule, e.g. back in dotcom every West dealer sold out every E39 unloading from the trucks, so $1500-2000 above invoice was a killer dealer in NorCal/SoCal. In fact, back then NorCal dealers charged $3k minimum markup on selected non-M E39, while M5 went $10k+ [email protected]#$%!


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

HPIA4v2 said:


> I sent email to those CA out of state, both said "....do you know your local dealer is rather pissed at you for not ordering car from them..."


Yes, that's an interesting dynamic. Dealers get what's called a pump-in / pump-out report, which provides data on clients in your primary marketing area (PMA) that bought outside of it, and vice-versa. Sales managers get incensed when they see we're pumping out deals. But when you into the deal, it's usually 1) other dealer has the car they want, or 2) the deal was better.



HPIA4v2 said:


> I am not sure dealers can get good statistics on how many cars they sold will be serviced by them.


Oh we know, and it's the majority of our service customers. But not due to new car deals lost to other dealers. There are people buying at off-lots and and private party, and those who have moved to the area. We keep track, and have programs in place to try to capture them as a car buyer in the future.



HPIA4v2 said:


> ... I can't get my car serviced in Seattle (many claims have very good service), that cross toll road and bridge, drive in traffic both ways twice (assuming I get a loaner).


You will get a loaner here. We don't discriminate based on where you buy your car. Never.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Courtesy deliveries are not just a courtesy. It will cost somebody something.

If the car comes here, we need to detail it and gas it up. Theoretically someone goes over the car with that person. Those costs are passed on to the originating dealer.

I've seen anywhere between $500 to $1,000.

Someone's going to pay for it, and it's like the customer in one way or another.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> Yes, that's an interesting dynamic. Dealers get what's called a pump-in / pump-out report, which provides data on clients in your primary marketing area (PMA) that bought outside of it, and vice-versa. Sales managers get incensed when they see we're pumping out deals. But when you into the deal, it's usually 1) other dealer has the car they want, or 2) the deal was better.
> 
> Oh we know, and it's the majority of our service customers. But not due to new car deals lost to other dealers. There are people buying at off-lots and and private party, and those who have moved to the area. We keep track, and have programs in place to try to capture them as a car buyer in the future.
> 
> You will get a loaner here. We don't discriminate based on where you buy your car. Never.


The age of data analytics. 

Have to say the MSFT/AMZN [email protected] are not as price concious as the NorCal customer base who loves invoice before incentives deals. :bigpimp:


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> The age of data analytics.
> 
> Have to say the MSFT/AMZN [email protected] are not as price concious as the NorCal customer base who loves invoice before incentives deals. :bigpimp:


Oh they are ...


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> Oh they are ...


Since the customers are ready to pay less(sounds strange, right?), it is time to normalize the Seattle market to invoice before incentives, and aim for President's list.:thumbup:


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> Since the customers are ready to pay less(sounds strange, right?), it is time to normalize the Seattle market to invoice before incentives, and aim for President's list.:thumbup:


You probably need to be addressing that to the lithia auto group, who (I am sure) sets policy on pricing (not michael)

http://www.lithia.com/locations/index.htm?postalcode=98858&range=160

http://www.lithia.com/


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

kyfdx said:


> The Seattle area has a deserved reputation as a tough market to get a good car deal. Why cut a Bimmerfest member a great deal, when no one else in Seattle gets one?


Why does Seattle have a deserved reputation to not get good car deal?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Why does Seattle have a deserved reputation to not get good car deal?


Apparently there are 3 BMW Centers in the Seattle area, BMW Northwest has earned a stealer-shop reputation with some mentions of BMW of Seattle:

Stay away from BMW Northwest
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1465909?

Maybe the damp, grey and rain 365 days per years leads to depression that its taken out on the customers to fund a sunny vacation to Cabo San Lucas? #idk


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Apparently there are 3 BMW Centers in the Seattle area, BMW Northwest has earned a stealer-shop reputation with some mentions of BMW of Seattle:
> 
> Stay away from BMW Northwest
> http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1465909?
> ...


Wow extra $10k for 3-year lease .... This explains why customers are willing to travel 800-1100 miles to get cars from NorCal/SoCal.

In comparison, mjb sounds like a reasonable guy in that local market. :thumbup:


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## kyfdx (Aug 4, 2003)

namelessman said:


> Why does Seattle have a deserved reputation to not get good car deal?


It's not just BMW.. It's new cars, in general. Maybe it's the high cost of registration and 10.2% sales tax that numbs everyone to the high prices.

Florida is another crappy place to shop for a car. Just when you think you have a deal, they spring the $799 dealer fee and $500 electronic filing fee assistance on you. (note that the electronic filing fee is actually $29. They have to make up a fee that isn't actually the fee).

Be glad you are in CA, where the state restricts doc fees to $80! Cheap! ;-)


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

kyfdx said:


> It's not just BMW.. It's new cars, in general. Maybe it's the high cost of registration and 10.2% sales tax that numbs everyone to the high prices.
> 
> Florida is another crappy place to shop for a car. Just when you think you have a deal, they spring the $799 dealer fee and $500 electronic filing fee assistance on you. (note that the electronic filing fee is actually $29. They have to make up a fee that isn't actually the fee).
> 
> Be glad you are in CA, where the state restricts doc fees to $80! Cheap! ;-)


Charging $500 for a $29 electronic filing will be an example of fleecing. 

And from your description, the "F" in [email protected] stays for "*fleecing*" not "*fair*"! :tsk:


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## theresmy5 (Nov 26, 2017)

Lots of drama on an interwebs forum. I haven’t followed, but I am curious how Ibiza gets his VP/VIP hookup! Got room on that list?!


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> This thread is a perfect microcosm for the answer to the question that michael asked when creating this thread.


In past few years the dominant traffic on this sub-forum has been rate-a-lease.

My take is that the answer to the question in post#1 really is related to the change of business model of BMWNA.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> This picture sums up the ending.
> View attachment 775754
> 
> 
> On to Bimmerpost as MJB set up an account last month.


No longer on Bimmerpost.

Same reason as here.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> This picture sums up the ending.


Definitely not the case, or a case of thin skin.

When my presence on a forum could have a deleterious affect on my store and my brand, I'm obligated to mitigate that.

I'm doing so voluntarily.

_____________

I had a great drive in my BMW down to the Tacoma area yesterday. Good clients of mine got a set of 19" winter tires at my store for the wife's X5. The husband had a stroke last year (he bought an M5 from me, and the son a 328). I volunteered to put the 20"s in my X3 and bring them to their house so I could store them in his garage.

It was good for head clearing, including a little fun with an A3 on the back roads. Reminded me of the good reasons for doing this job.

mjb


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## Greg @ East Bay BMW (Jul 6, 2013)

MJBrown62 said:


> I had a great drive in my BMW down to the Tacoma area yesterday. Good clients of mine got a set of 19" winter tires at my store for the wife's X5. The husband had a stroke last year (he bought an M5 from me, and the son a 328). I volunteered to put the 20"s in my X3 and bring them to their house so I could store them in his garage.
> 
> It was good for head clearing, including a little fun with an A3 on the back roads. Reminded me of the good reasons for doing this job.
> 
> mjb


Nice work mjb.

:roundel:


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

theresmy5 said:


> Lots of drama on an interwebs forum. I haven't followed, but I am curious how Ibiza gets his VP/VIP hookup! Got room on that list?!


There is a VIP sales purchase program, $1,500 off lease/finance using BMWFS or $3,000 off paying cash or alternative financing. BMW NA pays the delivery center $500 under the program. The BMWFS discount is exclusive of other sales support programs. Hint is 9 vehicles over 14 years.

No comment to the above posts, as the mods will shortly take down this thread.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

As this has turned to posting against Ibiza, wanted to bring to your attention the forum posting rules/conduct:


Bimmerfest.com Forum Guidelines
Last updated on September 9, 2009
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## SNAGuy (Apr 25, 2015)

Ibiza said:


> As this has turned to posting against Ibiza, wanted to bring to your attention the forum posting rules/conduct:
> 
> Bimmerfest.com Forum Guidelines
> Last updated on September 9, 2009
> ...


And how many times have you attacked MJBrown62?

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

Ibiza, why start encouraging the mods to censor your opposition here? Just do the right thing and apologize to MJB. After all, aren't you the one who compared MJB to a pouting little girl?


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Strange, I don't recall anyone attacking Ibiza by name. What I do recall is folks criticizing tax cheats and members who have gone out of their way to drive dealers and sponsors out of here by posting confidential information and referring to their businesses as "stealerships".

If it's not a PERSONAL attack, I don't see how it violates the rules.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## HPIA4v2 (Mar 30, 2006)

I have a feeling the situation gets out of hands a bit, *maybe *due to the name of dealer in the M3 forums....BMW NORTHWEST.
MJB seems to bundle that with the rest of PNW dealers, Phil Harlow the OP really directs his dissatisfaction toward ONE dealer in PNW area, which is *Northwest BMW* in Fife. Not Seattle, not Bellevue, not Spokane, not Kuni, not Portland, not Tri-cities, not Salem, not Eugene etc.....

Oh well...


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

HPIA4v2 said:


> I have a feeling the situation gets out of hands a bit, *maybe *due to the name of dealer in the M3 forums....BMW NORTHWEST.
> MJB seems to bundle that with the rest of PNW dealers, Phil Harlow the OP really directs his dissatisfaction toward ONE dealer in PNW area, which is *Northwest BMW* in Fife. Not Seattle, not Bellevue, not Spokane, not Kuni, not Portland, not Tri-cities, not Salem, not Eugene etc.....
> 
> Oh well...


Just to avoid any confusion, *BMW Northwest* is located in Fife, Washington (near Tacoma) while *Northwest BMW* is located across the country in Owings Mills, Maryland (near Baltimore).


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## HPIA4v2 (Mar 30, 2006)

gkr778 said:


> Just to avoid any confusion, *BMW Northwest* is located in Fife, Washington (near Tacoma) while *Northwest BMW* is located across the country in Owings Mills, Maryland (near Baltimore).


:rofl:, and we thought we had sole custody of Northwest word.

But the 12th man is definitely ours :bigpimp::bigpimp::bigpimp:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

HPIA4v2 said:


> I have a feeling the situation gets out of hands a bit, *maybe *due to the name of dealer in the M3 forums....BMW NORTHWEST.
> MJB seems to bundle that with the rest of PNW dealers, Phil Harlow the OP really directs his dissatisfaction toward ONE dealer in PNW area, which is *Northwest BMW* in Fife. Not Seattle, not Bellevue, not Spokane, not Kuni, not Portland, not Tri-cities, not Salem, not Eugene etc.....
> 
> Oh well...


In the end it is not discussions among posters and CA/sponsors on forums that determine the prices, it is the purse string holders who drive the markets(e.g. PNW, NorCal, SoCal, NY/NJ, etc, etc). For sure the dealers and BMWNA know the stats and data and numbers, and position accordingly.


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## Der_Kommissar (Aug 16, 2016)

Well, this was nice while it lasted. I'm glad I got to see a bit of what this community was like before it collapsed under its own weight. Change the name of the forum to "Ask-An-Ibiza" and lets pack it in.


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

Der_Kommissar said:


> Well, this was nice while it lasted. I'm glad I got to see a bit of what this community was like before it collapsed under its own weight. Change the name of the forum to "Ask-An-Ibiza" and lets pack it in.


+1. It's kind of ironic that a question asking about the future of this forum would lead to the single-handed destruction of the forum by he who shall remain nameless.


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## innovativeit (Sep 30, 2007)

quackbury said:


> Did you guys really succeed in running off the very last CA who regularly posted in the Ask-a-Dealer forum?
> 
> Will it be renamed the "Ask-a-Bunch-of-Self-Important-Folks-Who-Aren't-In-Any-Way-Connected-to-a-Dealer-But-Love-to-Speculate-and-Blow-Smoke Forum"?
> 
> I mean, really, what possible purpose was served by insulting a CA, his dealership and an entire marketing region?


I totally agree. I assumed that this forum would inevitably be renamed the "Ask-a-Bunch-of-Self-Important-Folks-Who-Aren't-In-Any-Way-Connected-to-a-Dealer-But-Love-to-Speculate-and-Blow-Smoke Forum" or some other variation.

I have also appreciated the information and advice provided by you, Ard, JJ, 1968BMW2800, dkreidel, and a few others.

Thank you.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Given BMWNA and BMWFS are into regional incentives these days, and the fact that CAs/sponsor participation(or lack of) are scarce and regional, the best approach is for festers, including those "Who-Aren't-In-Any-Way-Connected-to-a-Dealer", to share their regional deals with the sub-forum. 

E.g. those $3000-$4000 incentives have been quite useful for those closing deals in Jan/Feb in markets that have those incentives. :thumbup:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Given BMWNA and BMWFS are into regional incentives these days, and the fact that CAs/sponsor participation(or lack of) are scarce and regional, the best approach is for festers, including those "Who-Aren't-In-Any-Way-Connected-to-a-Dealer", to share their regional deals with the sub-forum.


To some extent, sharing details of specific deals can be helpful. But we need to be careful.

The most aggressive deal I ever did was done with the verbal agreement between me and the GM that I would tell everyone how well I was treated but would not disclose the details of the deal I was offered. The GM explained that he would be unable to replicate the unusually aggressive offer he gave me. I honored that agreement.

Sometimes confidentiality benefits the buyer. Discretion is advised. Bragging by giving too much specific info on a particular deal is to be discouraged. IMHO.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> To some extent, sharing details of specific deals can be helpful. But we need to be careful.
> 
> The most aggressive deal I ever did was done with the verbal agreement between me and the GM that I would tell everyone how well I was treated but would not disclose the details of the deal I was offered. The GM explained that he would be unable to replicate the unusually aggressive offer he gave me. I honored that agreement.
> 
> Sometimes confidentiality benefits the buyer. Discretion is advised. Bragging by giving too much specific info on a particular deal is to be discouraged. IMHO.


Yes there is no disagreement there.

With no/scarce disclosure and data, the FMV(as in "fair") can be controlled by the dealers as the majority of the deals will be, say, 10% off MSRP(or $3k markup in dotcom days, dependent on what local markets can bear).

When truecar and such grab the info from data aggregators, those become the prices shown on their websites, and those prices further solicit FMV in the minds of customers.

Another perspective is that, when newly joined festers in, say, NorCal, sees the prices and terms of, say, Seattle, they can close deals that can affect prices of their locales ....

That is not good, as NorCal should follow SoCal pricing, not Seattle!


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Covfefe said:


> +1. It's kind of ironic that a question asking about the future of this forum would lead to the single-handed destruction of the forum ...


Not destroyed; bumped and bruised. Bimmerfest has survived plenty of ups and downs over the years; give it some time to heal :thumbup:

It's the internet for chrissakes


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

dkreidel said:


> Not destroyed; bumped and bruised. Bimmerfest has survived plenty of ups and downs over the years; give it some time to heal :thumbup:
> 
> It's the internet for chrissakes


Well maybe this thread may set things in motion to have LA prices creeping higher than Seattle, the world is full of unintended consequences.


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## deenx (Nov 11, 2011)

namelessman said:


> Yes there is no disagreement there.
> 
> With no/scarce disclosure and data, the FMV(as in "fair") can be controlled by the dealers as the majority of the deals will be, say, 10% off MSRP(or $3k markup in dotcom days, dependent on what local markets can bear).
> 
> ...


Ultimately, the discussion is leading to a much broader topic and that is the viability and function of the dealership model. Love them or hate them, Tesla is attempting to disrupt the auto industry and they are using an entirely different sales model. Further, think of the disruption when Amazon finally moves in autos. My point is, BMW corporate will have to consider (likely already are) that a consistent purchasing experience will add value to their brand. If I can buy a car in Cal for one price and yet can't get that price in Seattle, the brand gets dinged as a matter of credibility and reputation.

Just my opinion.. but to think that business models developed in the 40's and 50's are going to continue to work in the future is a little naive. The customer is changing and businesses will have to change or they will be left behind.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

deenx said:


> Ultimately, the discussion is leading to a much broader topic and that is the viability and function of the dealership model. Love them or hate them, Tesla is attempting to disrupt the auto industry and they are using an entirely different sales model. Further, think of the disruption when Amazon finally moves in autos. My point is, BMW corporate will have to consider (likely already are) that a consistent purchasing experience will add value to their brand. If I can buy a car in Cal for one price and yet can't get that price in Seattle, the brand gets dinged as a matter of credibility and reputation.
> 
> Just my opinion.. but to think that business models developed in the 40's and 50's are going to continue to work in the future is a little naive. The customer is changing and businesses will have to change or they will be left behind.


This is an absolutely fair (and interesting) discussion, but I disagree with you that this is the discussion that was happening in this thread.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

deenx said:


> Ultimately, the discussion is leading to a much broader topic and that is the viability and function of the dealership model. Love them or hate them, Tesla is attempting to disrupt the auto industry and they are using an entirely different sales model. Further, think of the disruption when Amazon finally moves in autos. My point is, BMW corporate will have to consider (likely already are) that a consistent purchasing experience will add value to their brand. If I can buy a car in Cal for one price and yet can't get that price in Seattle, the brand gets dinged as a matter of credibility and reputation.
> 
> Just my opinion.. but to think that business models developed in the 40's and 50's are going to continue to work in the future is a little naive. The customer is changing and businesses will have to change or they will be left behind.


This thread touches on many facets, but to me ultimately price drives most of the discussions on this sub-forum.

There are sellers here that defend their prices as fair, and buyers who argue the prices are unfair.

There are posters who spend lot of time evaluating deals, with the ultimate goal of getting a sense of FMV.

And the forum founder started and used this sub-forum to talk about prices that beat other markets, and attract buyers form other markets to his store. And that approach continues as of today, e.g. SoCal top sales grabbing customers from Seattle and other high price markets.

None of these is needed with the Tesla one-price direct sales model. As you pointed out, BMW is making baby steps in that direction. There are resistance from dealers but when customers want straightforward buying experience(one allure of Tesla's direct sale model), BMW needs to take note.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> None of these is needed with the Tesla one-price direct sales model. As you pointed out, BMW is making baby steps in that direction. There are resistance from dealers but when customers want straightforward buying experience(one allure of Tesla's direct sale model), BMW needs to take note.


Tesla's monopolistic selling strategy has worked thus far as the demand for their product continues to exceed Tesla's current production capacity. People are willing to pay Tesla's high prices because, for whatever reasons, they want to drive the cars and are willing to pay high, fixed prices to do so. Thus far, despite fixed pricing,Tesla has lost money on every car it has put on the road.

BMWNA executives have been on record in the past as favoring a fixed price selling model.

The complexities of the traditional car dealing system, with negotiation of trade-in price, varying levels of customer credit-worthiness, need to balance inventory supply with ever-changing demand, and many other factors, have contributed to the retention of the current, dealer-based/negotiated pricing model.

Interestingly, some national mega-chain car dealerships that claim to have "set pricing" policies, have been known to negotiate price and terms in competitive markets.

Without a doubt, fixed pricing removes a lot of the hassle and tension from the process, in theory. But it usually results in higher pricing overall. Also, it creates a headache with inventory balancing when, in a particular region, inventory exceeds demand. For example, if a certain model isn't selling well in Region A, does the "factory" authorize incentives or price reductions? If so, what does that do to the Tesla-like national set price concept?

I am confident that, if demand for Telsa cars falls below their production, Tesla will re-visit their sales model. As it is now, Tesla, despite all manner of subsidies, continues to lose massive amounts of money and, absent the special subsidies, would most likely not be a viable business.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> I am confident that, if demand for Telsa cars falls below their production, Tesla will re-visit their sales model. As it is now, Tesla, despite all manner of subsidies, continues to lose massive amounts of money and, absent the special subsidies, would most likely not be a viable business.


Tesla has a bigger problem than its business model, namely, its products(and EVs in general) are not good enough so to speak.

As far as business model, the way that top sales in SoCal/NorCal operate is as close to direct sales as BMW buyers can experience.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

deenx said:


> Just my opinion.. but to think that business models developed in the 40's and 50's are going to continue to work in the future is a little naive. The customer is changing and businesses will have to change or they will be left behind.


That's a very good point deenx about the importance of businesses (in any sector) changing to accommodate new products, services, and customers.

Automobile dealerships in the U.S. have demonstrated a remarkable ability to adapt and change since the motorcar was introduced over a century ago. NADA, the trade association for car dealerships, commissioned a study a couple years ago to predict the state of franchised dealerships in 2025. The study found that "challenges are many, [but] they aren't crippling."

One dealer and former NADA chairman stated in Automotive News,



> *Though many of the changes happening in the industry are daunting, dealers can adapt, said Jeff Carlson, a Colorado dealer and 2016 chairman of NADA. Their ability to do so is why the franchise model already has worked for more than 100 years.
> 
> "The reason dealers are able to survive is because we compete furiously, and we have to reinvent ourselves every single day. If the manufacturer announces an incentive, we have to adapt, and if he takes it away, we have to readapt, and if there's a new regulation, we have to adapt," Carlson said. "And if we have a new model of mobility that comes out, it may take us a few days -- but we'll adapt. We are very rapid changers. We mutate or die."*


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

gkr778 said:


> That's a very good point deenx about the importance of businesses (in any sector) changing to accommodate new products, services, and customers.
> 
> Automobile dealerships in the U.S. have demonstrated a remarkable ability to adapt and change since the motorcar was introduced over a century ago. NADA, the trade association for car dealerships, commissioned a study a couple years ago to predict the state of franchised dealerships in 2025. The study found that "challenges are many, [but] they aren't crippling."
> 
> One dealer and former NADA chairman stated in Automotive News,


Wow very strong statement. :thumbup:

".... but we'll adapt. We are very rapid changers. We mutate or die."

The top sales definitely adapt, and have the volume to prove it.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

namelessman said:


> None of these is needed with the Tesla one-price direct sales model.


You young 'uns who think Tesla invented prix fixe pricing crack me up. Am I the only one old enough to remember Saturn? How did that work out for them?


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

quackbury said:


> You young 'uns who think Tesla invented prix fixe pricing crack me up. Am I the only one old enough to remember Saturn? How did that work out for them?


No-haggle pricing could not hide how bad Saturn's products were.

From another perspective, good products do not need layers of sales and incentives and rounds of negotiation to sell, provided the prices are set right.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> No-haggle pricing could not hide how bad Saturn's products were.
> 
> From another perspective, good products do not need layers of sales and incentives and rounds of negotiation to sell, provided the prices are set right.


Good products often do not sell well for any number of reasons and, thus, the marketplace, when it's working properly, adjusts the price accordingly. Auto manufacturers and dealers all have many stories about great products, that were priced "right" but couldn't sell. The automotive press loved the Cadillac wagon. No longer made due to weak demand throughout its production run.

Rolls and Bentley don't have "sales" or published incentives, yet, within recent memory, here in the SoCal market, "attractive" leases were advertised for Bentley to help move metal.

And, finally, as knowledgeable participants on this forum have told us, pricing in one region for the same BMW products may be much more aggressive than in another region. Product quality or attractiveness are probably not the determining factors.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

I am reminded of the old joke about the man who approaches an attractive young woman at a fancy cocktail party. He starts chatting her up and, at a certain point in the conversation, asks her, "Would you sleep with a man you didn't know for $100?" To which the attractive woman replies with an indignant, "Absolutely not!" The man responds with, "Would you do it for a thousand dollars?" The woman pauses, grins, and says, "Naw, not for a thousand." The man then says, "How about for a million? Would you sleep with a man you had just met for a million bucks?" The woman thinks for a quick moment, slowly says, "Wow, a million dollars is a lot of money," and then, recovering her composure, quickly asks the man, "What do you think I am?" To which the man replies, "Oh, I believe we've established what you are. I think all we're doing here is negotiating price."

Attractiveness is clearly not the issue, nor is quality. Just tryin' to find the right price where a buyer and a seller can come to terms, neither being compelled to act yet, perhaps, both motivated to make a deal.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

quackbury said:


> Am I the only one old enough to remember Saturn? How did that work out for them?


No, you are not the only one. Saturn's "no haggle, no hassle" approach to new vehicle sales was very successful, garnering the brand impressively high ratings on J.D. Power's SSI study. For several years, Saturn beat all or nearly all luxury brands in sales satisfaction (it was #1 among all brands in 2000 and 2001).

Unfortunately, Saturn generated internecine conflict within General Motors. Managers at other GM divisions became resentful of what they considered "diversion" of resources from their business units to Saturn. By the mid 2000s, Saturn products lost most of their uniqueness, and GM's bankruptcy in 2009 led to the brand's ultimate demise.


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## Yinzer (Jul 21, 2014)

Lexus is trying to do no hassle pricing as well


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## Der_Kommissar (Aug 16, 2016)

gkr778 said:


> No, you are not the only one. Saturn's "no haggle, no hassle" approach to new vehicle sales was very successful, garnering the brand impressively high ratings on J.D. Power's SSI study. For several years, Saturn beat all or nearly all luxury brands in sales satisfaction (it was #1 among all brands in 2000 and 2001).
> 
> Unfortunately, Saturn generated internecine conflict within General Motors. Managers at other GM divisions became resentful of what they considered "diversion" of resources from their business units to Saturn. By the mid 2000s, Saturn products lost most of their uniqueness, and GM's bankruptcy in 2009 led to the brand's ultimate demise.


Agreed- The 1st SL1 and SL2 were great, innovative cars (and the 2nd gen was still pretty good), but their product pipeline ultimately was killed by the other brands within GM. They spend all their brand equity from their first set of cars by the early 2000's.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Der_Kommissar said:


> Agreed- The 1st SL1 and SL2 were great, innovative cars (and the 2nd gen was still pretty good), but their product pipeline ultimately was killed by the other brands within GM. They spend all their brand equity from their first set of cars by the early 2000's.


Great products with no haggle pricing drew quite an audience in Saturn's early years, right?

So is Lexus no haggle pricing still in effect? My recollection is that they started a pilot program and that was quite successful based on news article.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> So is Lexus no haggle pricing still in effect? My recollection is that they started a pilot program and that was quite successful based on news article.


It is at certain Lexus dealerships. The pilot program was indeed a success, and led to Lexus' current initiative called Lexus Plus. Currently, the following dealerships participate in all aspects of Lexus Plus:


Kuni Lexus of Greenwood Village, Greenwood Village, Colorado
JM Lexus, Margate, Florida
Tom Wood Lexus, Indianapolis, Indiana
Lexus of Wichita, Wichita, Kansas
Berlin City Lexus of Portland, Portland, Maine
Lexus of Omaha, Omaha, Nebraska
Lexus of Lincoln, Lincoln, Nebraska
Rohrich Lexus, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Lexus of North Hills, Wexford, Pennsylvania
Lexus of Lehigh Valley, Allentown, Pennsylvania
Lexus of Bellevue, Bellevue, Washington
Bergstrom Lexus, Appleton, Wisconsin

Here's the GM of Rohrich Lexus explaining the Lexus Plus program:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC1_Yajpiyc


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Where's the fun in that? Negotiating the deal is half the fun, and if the CA's are just order takers, the smarmy Lexus GSM can replace everyone on the floor with kiosks.

But I bet you $5 the good folks at Rohrick still bend folks over on their trades, and their finance managers still push wheel and tire insurance, paint protection plans and the like.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

gkr778 said:


> It is at certain Lexus dealerships. The pilot program was indeed a success, and led to Lexus' current initiative called Lexus Plus.
> 
> Here's the GM of Rohrich Lexus explaining the Lexus Plus program:
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Jon Shafer said:


> What's up??? How's everyone doing??


Welcome! :thumbup: As evident from this thread, festers are "discussing" the same things since day one. 

Things are good?


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## Greg @ East Bay BMW (Jul 6, 2013)

Jon Shafer said:


> Hey, how's everyone doing?


PogChamp

Google it for reference lol.


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## Yinzer (Jul 21, 2014)

Jon Shafer said:


> Hey, how's everyone doing?


Hi Jon. How is retirement treating you ?

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Greg @ East Bay BMW said:


> PogChamp
> 
> Google it for reference lol.


Oh really Greg- here's one definition:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=DaddyKay


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## Greg @ East Bay BMW (Jul 6, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Oh really Greg- here's one definition:
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=DaddyKay


Clearly the definition I was going for!

:rofl:


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Yinzer said:


> Hi Jon. How is retirement treating you ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Doing great thanks, but I miss you all.. 

Trying to figure out what to do next.

Bored out of my mind...


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Greg @ East Bay BMW said:


> Clearly the definition I was going for!
> 
> :rofl:


Well this explains when MJB asked on post #1, "Where is everybody? Sad to see this forum go quietly into the night". Everyone moved on to became a PogChamp.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Jon Shafer said:


> Doing great thanks, but I miss you all..
> 
> Trying to figure out what to do next.
> 
> Bored out of my mind...


Jon,

Your always warmly welcomed to re-join us on the 'Fest, your insight is missed.


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## Greg @ East Bay BMW (Jul 6, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Well this explains when MJB asked on post #1, "Where is everybody? Sad to see this forum go quietly into the night". Everyone moved on to became a PogChamp.


And just to make sure no one mistakes taking you seriously.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pogchamp

:angel:


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

Jon Shafer said:


> Doing great thanks, but I miss you all..
> 
> Trying to figure out what to do next.
> 
> Bored out of my mind...


Done all the surfing you can for a lifetime already!?


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Ibiza said:


> Jon,
> 
> Your always warmly welcomed to re-join us on the 'Fest, your insight is missed.





FaRKle! said:


> Done all the surfing you can for a lifetime already!?


Thank you! I miss all of you deeply. My departure from both BMW sales and Bimmerfest ownership has been troubling, but I am hanging in there.

What have I missed around here? It's been almost a year.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Jon Shafer said:


> Thank you! I miss all of you deeply. My departure from both BMW sales and Bimmerfest ownership has been troubling, but I am hanging in there.
> 
> What have I missed around here? It's been almost a year.


This thread is a good start to catch up on latest and greatest on bimmerfest.  Some recent highlights:

1. a thread of BMWFS playbook(listing incentives and programs) to dealers brought heated discussions of transparency versus confidential + proprietary info

2. a post (on this thread) suggesting SoCal board sponsor to sidestep local MF markup brought much commotion. 

3. a debate of what discourages CA participation on this sub-forum.

4. bemoaning of lost MSDs and then resurrection, and how BMWFS backing off from lease subsidies affect fester's choices of next cars.

5. a thread about pros and cons of CCRC.

This sub-forum is quite colorful and enlightening. ;D


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

namelessman said:


> This thread is a good start to catch up on latest and greatest on bimmerfest.  Some recent highlights:
> 
> 1. a thread of BMWFS playbook(listing incentives and programs) to dealers brought heated discussions of transparency versus confidential + proprietary info
> 
> ...


:sigh: That's a lot.. Are there many dealers still participating?

The Ask-a-Dealer forum was arguably the key differentiating discussion forum of this entire site (originally called "Ask Jon").

Is Greg (Poland) still around?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Jon Shafer said:


> :sigh: That's a lot.. Are there many dealers still participating?
> 
> The Ask-a-Dealer forum was arguably the key differentiating discussion forum of this entire site (originally called "Ask Jon").
> 
> Is Greg (Poland) still around?


Greg is still around, selling lots of metal to be on the Presidents list.

Adrian was promoted to F&I manager last year (around the time the Playbook was posted which started a nuclear war here with a lot of personal derogatory comments)

Irv Robison passed away.

MJB, who started this thread, has been a very active CA and we're thankful for that, as the discussions at times have felt like that some of us have been attacking the CA's, but that's due to difference in opinions amoung the 'Festers. End of the day, we're still BMW loyalists, but is microcosm of our current divided country.

BMW NA's corporate social media policy I have speculated has decreased CA participation. As back in the day there was lots of info posted on the 'Feast, that BMW NA legal had removed.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Jon Shafer said:


> Hey, how's everyone doing?


Hi Jon,

Not sure of the timing with your departure, but the passing of Ninong was a blow to the 'Fest and ask a dealer forum in particular. JJRandorin has stepped in as *the* go-to non-CA source, ably filling big shoes.

Ard, 1968BMW2008, Namelessman, Ibiza (and I'm sure I'm missing someone) are key contributors as well.

Ibiza and I have had a running battle, but he offered an olive branch, which I accepted, and we agree to disagree at times!

Greg Poland is a flat out busy man as a national top producer.

Dave Pags in Portland has been promoted to Sales Manager/Used Car Manager, and congrats to him.

The lack of paying Dealer Sponsors indicates that dealers may have moved on. Currently only Pacific has a link on the Sponsors Page. I know Greg @ EastBay is a sponsor, and there may be others "incognito."

It's pretty rare to see participate count on Ask-a-Dealer more than 70 at a time; it's usually in the 40's-50s. I remember it being 100+ fairly regularly.

But, when that new person hops on, they can be assured to get info from those of us still active, doing the good work you started.

Cheers Jon!

MJB


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Jon Shafer said:


> :sigh: That's a lot.. Are there many dealers still participating?
> 
> The Ask-a-Dealer forum was arguably the key differentiating discussion forum of this entire site (originally called "Ask Jon").
> 
> Is Greg (Poland) still around?


Correction: Greg Poland is one of the few CA/dealer board sponsors(just notice [email protected] Bay is also sponsor green).


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Jon Shafer said:


> Doing great thanks, but I miss you all..
> 
> Trying to figure out what to do next.
> 
> Bored out of my mind...


Then why on earth did you leave us?

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Jon, great to hear from you. You've been missed. How's the back?

Sent from my HTC 10 using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Then why on earth did you leave us?


I guess I was just very sad after leaving SBAG and the sale of Bimmerfest. I am still a little bummed about it..



quackbury said:


> Jon, great to hear from you. You've been missed. How's the back?


Thanks for asking. When I left SB Auto Group my back and hip pain were so bad that I nearly broke down. My back is quite a bit better as long as I don't sit for very long in a chair. My left hip has gotten much worse though. I've been to 4 specialists and can not get them to agree. Two said that I was a candidate for hip replacement, one said I needed to just have my hip surgically repaired (torn labrum, bone spurs), and the last one told me that there was nothing wrong at all with my hip, that it was all muscle problem..

:-/

Anyway, it feels good to come back and visit but also very strange at the same time. I am very proud of what we built here, but feel a bit akward...


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Jon Shafer said:


> Anyway, it feels good to come back and visit but also very strange at the same time. I am very proud of what we built here, but feel a bit akward...


Jon, you are the Godfather of Bimmerfest! You are Bimmerfest, without your vision, there would be no Fest or 'festers. No book at either the Welt or PC. You have a lifetime Bimmerfest key to the forums. So nice to have you back!


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