# IS350 - Lexus didn't learn its lesson



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> So wait a year if you really want one. Get a 2nd model year, with a manual, with discounts off MSRP, seems like a no brainer. I know your lease comes up, but my point is a year's delay is not a big deal for most people.


I just put together a 2006 330i with the options i want at bmwusa. The car comes up to 39k.

Figure ED and you're talking 36-37k. Add in 4 years of service. Not sure an IS350 outfitted as I want (sport package and xenons are extra) would be that much cheaper - especially without service included. Doesn't seem possible they'd sell an IS350 for 34-35k. Especially considering they want to charge 30k for the IS250. :dunno:


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

HS said:


> Low 5's I can get into...
> 
> Good news for U.S. customers is the 3.5-liter V6 will produce upward of 300 hp and should easily propel the IS 350 from 0 to 60 mph in the low-five-second range, quicker than BMW's new 330i by nearly a second and substantially faster than the IS 300's 6.8-second time. The engines mate to six-speed manual and automatic transmissions, the automatic featuring steering wheel-mounted shift paddles. The IS 350 also gets a more performance-oriented version of VDIM, the integrated system that controls traction, stability, brakes and steering.
> 
> ...


But Lexus says high fives and no manual. :dunno: i'd trust the manu over a rag.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> Yeah, I agree. And I trust Lexus' reliability, but their performance is meh. I'm hoping that changes.
> 
> Can't say I'm a fan of Lexus sales or service though - the dealer told me few weeks ago the IS wasn't coming out this year at all. And they charge $1100 for a 30k service that BMW does for free.


holy crap, 1100?!!! That sorta seals the deal.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

What is BMWNA claiming for the 330i in 0-60? 6.4-ish?

If I could get a comparably equipped IS350 for even the same price (and assuming I was able to derive similar driving satisfaction) and get 1/2-second faster, I'd be inclined to consider the alternative.

I have enjoyed the 'free' maintenance, but what does Toyota's maintenance schedule look like? Anything besides oil for the first 30k (I don't have 30k miles on my '01 330i).



blueguydotcom said:


> I just put together a 2006 330i with the options i want at bmwusa. The car comes up to 39k.
> 
> Figure ED and you're talking 36-37k. Add in 4 years of service. Not sure an IS350 outfitted as I want (sport package and xenons are extra) would be that much cheaper - especially without service included. Doesn't seem possible they'd sell an IS350 for 34-35k. Especially considering they want to charge 30k for the IS250. :dunno:


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

I just got off the phone with one of the service mgrs at Bell Lexus (Phoenix) and their standard service charge for a 6-cylinder 30k mile maintenance is $600. Big whoop.

He also said they expect to see the new IS's in August.





blueguydotcom said:


> holy crap, 1100?!!! That sorta seals the deal.


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## jim (Jan 3, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> But Lexus says high fives and no manual. :dunno: i'd trust the manu over a rag.


Actually, Lexus says a sequential manual is standard on the 250: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1129930&postcount=34

-j


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

jim said:


> Actually, Lexus says a sequential manual is standard on the 250: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1129930&postcount=34
> 
> -j


Jim,I'm not concerned with the 250, it's pretty worthless to me. I'm concentrating on the 350, which comes only with the 6 speed auto.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

HS said:


> I just got off the phone with one of the service mgrs at Bell Lexus (Phoenix) and their standard service charge for a 6-cylinder 30k mile maintenance is $600. Big whoop.
> 
> He also said they expect to see the new IS's in August.


So figure $600, maybe $50 an oil change - every 5-7.5 miles and we're talking about maybe 1k in service?

Add that to the cost of the car. Don't see the value then.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

jim said:


> http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050323c
> 
> -j


Hmm, you are right, that's interesting. I hope they are not bending the definition of sequential.

If true, it would also mean the manual IS350 probably won't be any quicker 0-60.


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## jim (Jan 3, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> Jim,I'm not concerned with the 250, it's pretty worthless to me. I'm concentrating on the 350, which comes only with the 6 speed auto.


Gotcha. . .

-j


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Dawg90 said:


> Hmm, you are right, that's interesting. I hope they are not bending the definition of sequential.
> 
> If true, it would also mean the manual IS350 probably won't be any quicker 0-60.


 Wrong. Sequential trannies never get released to the public with a good launch mode.

...and real sequential transmissions have a clutch pedal to get into first gear.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> So figure $600, maybe $50 an oil change - every 5-7.5 miles and we're talking about maybe 1k in service?
> 
> Add that to the cost of the car. Don't see the value then.


Depends on which dealer, IS guys complain about $1100 services and $100 oil changes.

ED is a great way to avoid paying sticker for a new model.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Wrong. Sequential trannies never get released to the public with a good launch mode.
> 
> ...and real sequential transmissions have a clutch pedal to get into first gear.


We'll see, Lexus quoted the same time for the IS250 manual and sequential. (high 7s)


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Dawg90 said:


> We'll see, Lexus quoted the same time for the IS250 manual and sequential. (high 7s)


 And unless the sequential launches at over 5,000 RPMs and slips the clutch properly, I'm callign bull****. Plain and simple.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And unless the sequential launches at over 5,000 RPMs and slips the clutch properly, I'm callign bull****. Plain and simple.


Maybe, anyway I still think the Lexus "sequential manual" is really just an automatic with paddle shifts.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

HS said:


> What is BMWNA claiming for the 330i in 0-60? 6.4-ish?
> 
> If I could get a comparably equipped IS350 for even the same price (and assuming I was able to derive similar driving satisfaction) and get 1/2-second faster, I'd be inclined to consider the alternative.


1/2-second faster? Based on previous observations, BMWNA is consistently claiming 0-60 times about 0.3 sec. SLOWER than the actual number, regardless of models, while Lexus is specifying 0.3 sec. FASTER than the actual number. So if both are claiming the same 0-60 time, in reality, the BMW is about 0.6 sec. faster than the Lexus. Also, C&D had already tested the E90 330i with 0-60 in 5.6 sec. So unless Lexus is claiming a manual IS350 (if exists) for low 5 sec., there is no way it can beat the 330i.


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## jgrgnt (Apr 27, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> Maybe, anyway I still think the Lexus "sequential manual" is really just an automatic with paddle shifts.


It is. Check their website. They use the term "sequential-shift" everywhere, applying it to virtually every one of their cars that has an automatic transmission with manual-shift mode.

Check out this snippet from the highlights for the LS430:

"At cruising speeds, the six-speed sequential-shift automatic can turn a lower RPM, which not only improves fuel economy but also reduces noise and vibration."

It's not any different for the IS. It will have a conventional, torque converter-based automatic transmission.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Let's clear up the transmission confusion. From what I gather after reading the Lexus press release, here's what's coming for the first model year...

4 "models," as follows:

1. IS250 RWD with manual transmission (not a stick shift, but a sequential manual transmission, so yes, a real manual with no torque converter, similar to the MR2 Spyder SMT system)

2. IS250 RWD with automatic transmission (sequential shift option, ala manumatic transmissions like StepTronic)

3. IS250 AWD with same manumatic transmission

4. IS350 RWD with same manumatic transmission

If my interpretation of the document is correct, looks like no real stick shift.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> I'm callign bull****. Plain and simple.


:slap: please use the proper Bimmerfest methods of communication:










I had the opportunity to race a Lexus IS300 that was fully prepared to SCCA Stock rules (shocks, front swaybar, brakepads, wheels, exhaust, Hoosier DOT-R race tires, etc.) and while it handled well enough to somewhat overcome the anemic engine the ABS/TC system was a freaking nightmare. If you made any attempt at all to trailbrake the system would hammer the brakes on-off so bad I thought the damm car was literally going to fall apart. I had never experienced anything like that before or since, it's hard to put into words just how horrendous and scary it was. It was like somebody was beating on the car with a 200 lb sledge hammer, it was that bad 

Unfortunately IMO Lexus has proven time-time again that they have no real desire to build a true performance oriented vehicle. :tsk:


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## jgrgnt (Apr 27, 2002)

swchang said:


> Let's clear up the transmission confusion. From what I gather after reading the Lexus press release, here's what's coming for the first model year...
> 
> 4 "models," as follows:
> 
> ...


Again, because Lexus loves the word "sequential", and because they quickly glossed over the transmission descriptions in the press release, I'm inclined to believe the IS250 will have a conventional manual transmission as standard equipment.

I hope those rumors of a $42k IS350 prove incorrect. That's an awful lot of moolah.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

jgrgnt said:


> Again, because Lexus loves the word "sequential", and because they quickly glossed over the transmission descriptions in the press release, I'm inclined to believe the IS250 will have a conventional manual transmission as standard equipment.
> 
> I hope those rumors of a $42k IS350 prove incorrect. That's an awful lot of moolah.


I don't think so, but I've been wrong before. Unless Lexus made a big boo-boo in their press release, looks like no traditional manual, not even for the 250. Of course, they did make several boo-boos in their window sticker for the new GS...


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

TeamM3 said:


> If you made any attempt at all to trailbrake the system would hammer the brakes on-off so bad I thought the damm car was literally going to fall apart. I had never experienced anything like that before or since, it's hard to put into words just how horrendous and scary it was. It was like somebody was beating on the car with a 200 lb sledge hammer, it was that bad
> 
> Unfortunately IMO Lexus has proven time-time again that they have no real desire to build a true performance oriented vehicle. :tsk:


Hmm, I always wondered about that. When I test drove the IS and tried braking in a corner, the ABS went off like crazy, I was like WTF? I thought it was just touchy ABS, I didn't realize it was the DSC (which I thought I had turned off). The car has some great things going for it, but it's got a few fatal flaws. Like headroom, that's a killer for me.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

swchang said:


> Let's clear up the transmission confusion. From what I gather after reading the Lexus press release, here's what's coming for the first model year...
> 
> 4 "models," as follows:
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up, freaking Lexus. By the time the IS gets a real manual, the 130i will probably be out, and I'll have totally lost interest in the Lexus.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

swchang said:


> I don't think so, but I've been wrong before. Unless Lexus made a big boo-boo in their press release, looks like no traditional manual, not even for the 250. Of course, they did make several boo-boos in their window sticker for the new GS...


It turns out Lexus DID make a mistake in their press release. The IS250 has a standard manual tranny, not sequential at all.

So the choice for the IS250 is conventional manual, or torque converter auto w/ paddle shift. No SMG-type tranny.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> It turns out Lexus DID make a mistake in their press release. The IS250 has a standard manual tranny, not sequential at all.
> 
> So the choice for the IS250 is conventional manual, or torque converter auto w/ paddle shift. No SMG-type tranny.


Really? Where'd you hear that, CL or my.IS? Either way, good news!

What's the deal with AWD and MT only being offered for smaller engined cars? GS, M, IS, 5er will only offer AWD in the smaller engine, and IS, A4 will only have manuals in their smaller engines.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

swchang said:


> Really? Where'd you hear that, CL or my.IS? Either way, good news!
> 
> What's the deal with AWD and MT only being offered for smaller engined cars? GS, M, IS, 5er will only offer AWD in the smaller engine, and IS, A4 will only have manuals in their smaller engines.


Yeah, just came out on is.net an hour ago.

It could be that their AWD systems have trouble with high torque? I'd guess the IS350 will have a MT next year, and maybe AWD.

The 6 spd manual IS250 does 0-60 in "high 7s" - that's pretty slow, probably cause it weighs 3450 lbs, and has around 180 lb ft torque. But if the price is under $30k, it might sell well.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> Yeah, just came out on is.net an hour ago.
> 
> It could be that their AWD systems have trouble with high torque? I'd guess the IS350 will have a MT next year, and maybe AWD.
> 
> The 6 spd manual IS250 does 0-60 in "high 7s" - that's pretty slow, probably cause it weighs 3450 lbs, and has around 180 lb ft torque. But if the price is under $30k, it might sell well.


Supposedly should be close to current IS300 pricing, I heard.

I've heard about space issues with offering AWD with the V8's, but with a V6? Can't be an issue. Maybe they feel that most people don't buy the larger engined offerings, and so don't want to pay to certify the different models (AWD, MT, etc.). :dunno:


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> Yeah, just came out on is.net an hour ago.
> 
> It could be that their AWD systems have trouble with high torque? I'd guess the IS350 will have a MT next year, and maybe AWD.
> 
> The 6 spd manual IS250 does 0-60 in "high 7s" - that's pretty slow, probably cause it weighs 3450 lbs, and has around 180 lb ft torque. But if the price is under $30k, it might sell well.


I watched the lexus presentation at the nyias...

The Is250 in base form will cost about the same as the is300 yep a car with less power is going to cost more than its superior predecessor. leave it to toyota...

as for the mt, no mention was made of a manual in year 2 with the is350, therefore I wouldn't count on it. if lexus cared about enthusiasts they'd have mentioned it during the presentation or press release.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> I watched the lexus presentation at the nyias...
> 
> The Is250 in base form will cost about the same as the is300 yep a car with less power is going to cost more than its superior predecessor. leave it to toyota...
> 
> as for the mt, no mention was made of a manual in year 2 with the is350, therefore I wouldn't count on it. if lexus cared about enthusiasts they'd have mentioned it during the presentation or press release.


Still hopeful, as mentioning it now might make people wait a year before buying. Wouldn't make good business sense, from their perspective.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

swchang said:


> Still hopeful, as mentioning it now might make people wait a year before buying. Wouldn't make good business sense, from their perspective.


Yeah, I agree. Sources from inside Lexus have said a manual is coming, that's good enough for me - the official press release got the wrong info on the IS250 manual, I wouldn't trust them with this kind of thing.

While the IS250 is short on power, it has everything else standard - features that cost thousands on the 3 series. So lots of buyers will like it I predict. It looks good, has tons of luxury features (don't have to pay thousands for Bluetooth :dunno: for example), and is much roomier than the original. Most buyers won't place 0-60 times as a priority. As an enthusiast, it's not very interesting, but there's hope for a manual IS350 next year.


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## jgrgnt (Apr 27, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> Yeah, just came out on is.net an hour ago.
> 
> It could be that their AWD systems have trouble with high torque? I'd guess the IS350 will have a MT next year, and maybe AWD.
> 
> The 6 spd manual IS250 does 0-60 in "high 7s" - that's pretty slow, probably cause it weighs 3450 lbs, and has around 180 lb ft torque. But if the price is under $30k, it might sell well.


Maybe, just maybe Lexus learned its lesson this time around and is sticking with a conservative range. I agree, "high 7s" seems unusually slow, given the E46 325i can do it in 7 flat with less torque and fewer horses. Plus, the weight difference can't be much more than 100-150 lbs. between the two cars.

I do think they'll eventually offer a manual with the IS350. I just hope it won't cost more than $40k!


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

swchang said:


> Still hopeful, as mentioning it now might make people wait a year before buying. Wouldn't make good business sense, from their perspective.


infiniti told everyone, sure didn't hurt them. it kept enthusiasts interested and in my opinion kept many from buying a new car until they had a shot at it. i know i waited... :dunno:


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Mistake in Lexus PR. Will have a traditional manual in the IS250 after all. 

http://my.is/forums/showthread.php?t=246590


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## jgrgnt (Apr 27, 2002)

swchang said:


> Mistake in Lexus PR. Will have a traditional manual in the IS250 after all.
> 
> http://my.is/forums/showthread.php?t=246590


See? They _love_ that word "sequential." :rofl:


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Seriously.

Who buys the current IS300?

It is, by far, the weakest car in the segment. Why you'd ever buy one over a 325 or a G35 is baffling.

The new one looks mildly interesting.

The interior is better than the old, but still very Japanese generic, with inappropriate pieces of chrome scattered hither and yon.

This is the most illegible gauge font ever:


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

JST said:


> This is the most illegible gauge font ever:


I think it's the second most illegible guage front ever - next to the outgoing model. 
:rofl:


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

I faxed Lexus HQ a two page letter today requesting that they make a simple overture toward enthusiasts and build the IS350 with a manual.

Nothing will come of it but at least now I can say I sincerely tried to get them to make a car I'd consider over an e90.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

rwg said:


> I think it's the second most illegible guage front ever - next to the outgoing model.
> :rofl:


yeah I will take the new gauges over those terrible prev gen ones. stupid looking analog watch wannabe with a mini-tach.
:thumbdwn:


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

*Lexus releases engine specs of IS350*

IS350RWD
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/BE262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- model=BE262T&year=2006

310 hp, 280 lb-ft of torque. Hmmm, no standard xenon or roof.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> IS350RWD
> http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/BE262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- model=BE262T&year=2006
> 
> 310 hp, 280 lb-ft of torque. Hmmm, no standard xenon or roof.


no manual :thumbdwn: maybe/hopefully delayed intro :dunno:


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