# When is it unreasonable to expect BMW to pay for carbon build up?



## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

I abstained from voting in the poll because is a poorly conceived attempt by a product's owner to blame the manufacturer for their maintenance problems.

Either you have maintenance covered by warranty, or don't. What's the problem?


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

Nadir Point said:


> I abstained from voting in the poll because is a poorly conceived attempt by a product's owner to blame the manufacturer for their maintenance problems.
> 
> Either you have maintenance covered by warranty, or don't. What's the problem?


*So is cleaning carbon build-up "maintenance" or is it a "repair"?*

This was an attempt on my part to gauge the thoughts of owners on a subject.

It was perfectly conceived and has revealed interesting information.

I am surprised to see how strong the sentiment is (among a small number of respondents) that this design defect warrants a significant extension of the warranty originally included with the vehicle.

This is not without precedence. Regulatory agencies have mandated extensions of warranties for a variety of reasons. EV car batteries have a minimum warranty period of 10 year/150,000 miles in California, for example. Emissions warranties have been extended by government decree.

Then there are MANY examples of manufacturer's "extended consideration" to customers to make up for design defects.

What's the problem?

Well, for everyone except for you, apparently, the problem is that we bought cars with a belief that there was a reasonable chance that the car would not choke to death on carbon if we followed the manufacturer's maintenance guidelines. We didn't think to ourselves, "I am going to buy a car that will start to die at 50,000 miles." Especially after, as is with my case, owning so many BMWs a list is needed to count them.

BMW has not _officially_ acknowledged that our cars require cleaning to be properly maintained, because by _publicly_ doing so they would diminish the value of our cars and the BMW brand.

You are really out on your own on this one. BMW and its customers seem to disagree with you based upon service bulletins, good-will repairs, and agreements to perform repairs BEYOND warranty periods.

It is a strange position to take. _Even if you only lease cars_ and turn them in before the warranty expires. Then the problem wouldn't affect _you_, but the inability to see the rationale behind BMW's concern about this issue is a bit odd.

I will likely not have to spend a penny and BMW will take care of me because I have been proactive. But that doesn't make me unsympathetic to others not so well-situated.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Nadir Point said:


> I abstained from voting in the poll because is a poorly conceived attempt by a product's owner to blame the manufacturer for their maintenance problems.
> 
> Either you have maintenance covered by warranty, or don't. What's the problem?


According to BMWs covered maintenance items under the maintenance "warranty" its not a maintenance item. If it was a known maintenance item, it should have been listed under the original maintenance list.


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## MotoWPK (Oct 5, 2012)

Hoooper said:


> According to BMWs covered maintenance items under the maintenance "warranty" its not a maintenance item. If it was a known maintenance item, *it should have been listed under the original maintenance list.*


Bingo! Now if BMW, or any other manufacturer, wants to add CBU cleaning to their maintenance list, fine, and then prospective customers have an opportunity to gauge the maintenance requirements prior to purchase (this pertains to the definition of a latent defect as a fault that could not have been discovered by a reasonably thorough inspection before the sale - i.e. inspection of the maintenance schedule).

A manufacturer is free to list any items on its maintenance schedule, of course doing so risks increasing it's products maintenance requirements compared to that of its competitors. What items a manufacturer lists for maintenance, or doesn't list, are thus a judgement and risk it takes, not its customers. If it's not listed as maintenance then it isn't by the manufacturer's definition. Not having listed CBU as a maintenance item, it is a fault.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Sounds like we might have a basis for a class action suit, if anyone cares to take that up. I'm not a lawyer, but I feel like one when I'm sitting smartly behind the wheel of my 335D!

Very good arguments being made this is a latent defect, and I suspect a smart lawyer can find the precedence to support this. You can also bet the OEM has his own ammunition to counter with.

The problem is that the OEM has a reputation to maintain. I suspect that many of us on this forum may not consider buying another BMW, or at least a diesel powered one, if we are not treated fairly in regards to this important issue.

So, is it a maintenance issue or a design defect?:dunno:


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## Geotrash (Dec 22, 2013)

My guess is that no attorney would take this on as a class action unless someone was willing to fund the fees and any testing to prove the case, out of pocket. Other successful class actions have often involved millions of cars, like this recent one involving Honda:

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...tles-class-action-suit-over-oil-burning-claim

I'm not a lawyer, but the numbers of 335ds on the road is pretty small by comparison.

Cheers,
Dave


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## FredoinSF (Nov 29, 2009)

This is history repeating itself. Let's go through list of my current and former BMW and their common issues.
- 91 318is with M42 and failing profile gasket. Went on to well over 200k miles, great car.
- 02 330cic with disintegrating cooling system parts in M54 engine. Just did preventive thermostat, water pump, radiator replacement under 60k miles to prevent meltdown. Keeping this one forever.
- 07 650i with $5 coolant o ring that requires 10 hours of labor to change, leaky valve stem seals that also take 10 hours of labor, and leaky oil seals that are also beaucoup labor. Rainy day fund ready if I keep it too long.
- 12 MINI Countryman All4 with $hi!tty clutch that could not even be driven in San Francisco. Traded after 18 months cuz I could not drive it where I live.
- Now CBU on BMW diesel. Hoping the X5 is not as susceptible to it compared to the 335d's. 

The saving grace has been the aftermarket or just dumb luck or early trade. Given the above history, I doubt BMW will do anything about CBU at this point. It will be up to clever owners / independent shops / aftermarket suppliers to bring the repair costs down.
I am hoping the X5d will be like the 318is. It might need a CBU cleaning (and when it does it will be nice if BMW pays for it), but it will go past 200k miles with relatively few issues and will be remembered as one of the good ones. So far I still love the thing. Did fantastic driving from SF to Reno in rain and snow earlier today.


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## Diesel Don (Jul 28, 2014)

Has anyone seen the writeup LPCapital did to try to alleviate the CBU issue on his X5D? I don't have the link handy right now but it was a REALLY good in depth look at the CBU problem and an EASY engineering solution to solve it.

The quick answer is YES BMW and all other manufactures can solve this problem quite easily but I'm not sure the real reason they don't. As another said earlier in the post, we in the USA are just getting used to the idea of FINALLY driving diesel again and we don't need a $30 fix to ruin all the great inroads we've made. 

It was speculated by LP Capital that BMW may be letting the CBU issue go to prevent having another filter or maintenance issue for their customers to deal with but I don't know. Its a good thought but who knows why they don't.


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

Maintenance only applies or is implemented in a factory service schedule for items "designed" to need it during the warranty period.

CBU would not normally apply here.


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

Nadir Point said:


> Maintenance only applies or is implemented in a factory service schedule for items "designed" to need it during the warranty period.
> 
> CBU would not normally apply here.


Why not? (and what does "normally" mean?)

The factory knows that over time, engine oil becomes dirty and its ability to lubricate degrade over time. So they have a schedule for replacing oil and oil filters.

The factory knows that cabin air filters are designed to filter particles from the air and that, over time, these filters become clogged with trapped particles. So they created a schedule for replacing them.

The factory must not have realized that this build up would occur and that maintenance would be needed. So they screwed up.

The engine in the 335d absolutely has systems that were *designed* to prevent certain stuff from exiting the tailpipe of the car. The intake and exhaust system has been turned into a giant, sophisticated "filter". Exhaust gases recirculating, etc. clearly result in a build up of carbon deposits that, if not removed via cleaning, will prevent the normal functioning of the engine.

Now we are left with a "repair" issue that is the result of a failure to establish a proper maintenance schedule for the vehicle.

Now that BMW knows that there is a problem, they have done the math and decided that it is cheaper to fix the cars they are forced to fix under warranty...and extend good will to a few others, than it would be to admit that maintenance is required. 

I am still not clear how _anyone_ can come to the conclusion that buyers of the 335d should accept the fact that after the factory warranty expires, the car might need $5000 in repairs that result from BMW failing to acknowledge that carbon deposits must be cleaned to deliver a reasonable engine lifespan.


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

FredoinSF said:


> Did fantastic driving from SF to Reno in rain and snow earlier today.


Sounds delightful. I am a Highway 50 guy, though.


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## slugdriver (Dec 30, 2005)

All,

To put it simply, the fact that there are multiple threads (this one included) discussing CBU in our 335Ds should be proof enough that there is a design/engineering/technical flaw in the engine, so it is systemic!

Have said it before and will say it again, GM did the same thing re: faulty ignition switches and look how that turned out for them. The bottom line is that a multi-billion dollar company like BMW should step up to the plate, take ownership of the problem and fix it at their expense when the CBU problem arises for vehicles, particularly for those well south of 100K miles. Period. Full stop.


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

slugdriver said:


> ... particularly for those well south of 100K miles. Period. Full stop.


Which they do - particularly if the owner has the extended warranty - a crucial point in any discussion of the matter WRT maintenance or repair. A point glaringly absent from the OP's poll.

There are instances of BMW good-wiling a large portion of the bill for cars out of warranty. NEWSFLASH: There are also cases of owners getting ripped off for this by unscrupulous dealers.

Like THAT never happens.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Nadir Point said:


> Maintenance only applies or is implemented in a factory service schedule for items "designed" to need it during the warranty period.
> 
> CBU would not normally apply here.


Such BS. If you go look at the recommended service section of the service manual it doesnt end at 50k miles. Heck in my last car it went through 150k miles of recommended services right in the owners manual. The warranty on that car was not for 150k miles.


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

Nadir Point said:


> Which they do - particularly if the owner has the extended warranty - a crucial point in any discussion of the matter WRT maintenance or repair. A point glaringly absent from the OP's poll.


I guess I won't be getting a Christmas bonus from the law firm where I work designing political polls.

Oh wait. I am not a lawyer or a pollster, and this is an internet forum about cars. :yikes:

Did you think you were on CNN dot com?

:dunno:

I am waiting to hear about the statistical validity of my sample size. :bigpimp:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

DaveN007 said:


> I guess I won't be getting a Christmas bonus from the law firm where I work designing political polls.
> 
> Oh wait. I am not a lawyer or a pollster, and this is an internet forum about cars. :yikes:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry Dave, were we supposed to take this seriously?:tsk:


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

I'll say 335D's don't ever "die" from CBU. The car's computer prevents that unfortunate outcome. They just wait until the owner determines the appropriate course of action to maintain their car, or get rid of it, whichever they prefer. That pretty much amounts to paying for it one way or the other, either up front with warranty, or even from the perspective of your time taking it back and forth to the dealer to get the work done.

So no, I'm not taking this seriously at all. :thumbup:


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

A statistically imperfect but informative poll would be to look up all cars w/CBU on the two main forums for the NA 335d and see how many out of the approximately 10,000 cars sold have documented CBU, what brand fuel was primarily used, and if any additives were put in. Other info might include region, mileage, type of driving. If I had a lot of time, I might just peruse the forums to collect at least the number of cars affected.

PL


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

Nadir Point said:


> I'll say 335D's don't ever "die" from CBU. The car's computer prevents that unfortunate outcome. They just wait until the owner determines the appropriate course of action to maintain their car, or get rid of it, whichever they prefer. That pretty much amounts to paying for it one way or the other, either up front with warranty, or even from the perspective of your time taking it back and forth to the dealer to get the work done.
> 
> So no, I'm not taking this seriously at all. :thumbup:


We agree on the "seriousness" point. 

In the end it is just a question of $ and the best way to keep these machines delivering what they do so well...until it no longer makes sense.

My Z06 is coming at the end of February. I suspect I will have much more "serious" issues with it.

My Fiat 500e just spent 3 weeks in the shop. :rofl:

These are what well call "first world problems".

I am grateful to have them. :thumbup:


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