# Competitive deals



## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

Spike in interest rates/money factors has led to many of these leases no longer looking competitive. There's no way I am paying a hundred bucks more to lease the same car, not worth it. 

Is there any one of these models where there's a drastic discount? 

And not a fan enough of these cars to buy one cash -- rather spend that on something bulletproof but boring, e.g., land cruiser.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

pony_trekker said:


> Spike in interest rates/money factors has led to many of these leases no longer looking competitive. There's no way I am paying a hundred bucks more to lease the same car, not worth it.
> 
> Is there any one of these models where there's a drastic discount?
> 
> And not a fan enough of these cars to buy one cash -- rather spend that on something bulletproof but boring, e.g., land cruiser.


Look at the 6GT. If you can stomach the looks, you can likely score yourself a pretty darn good deal on one (because most people cant stomach the looks, so they dont sell).

7 Series, those normally have money on them.

If you mean any of the bread and butter (X1, X3, X5, 3 Series, 5 Series), then no.

The issue many of us have is that, leasing in 2016 was REALLY good. BMW decided it was too good, and pivoted the other way. If you are not going to buy a car, and you dont want to lease one for "a hundred more than the last one", you might want to start looking around at other brands. Its very hard to pay a hundred to 150 more for the same car, not as hard for a different car, or a different brand.


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## deenx (Nov 11, 2011)

IMO The mistake they are making (besides the absurd lineup of vehicles and iterations which ultimately add all kinds of costs) is not recognizing the real possibility of a slowing Chinese and US economy. This is exactly when you need incentives... not when interest rates are near 0 and the demand cycle is increasing.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

deenx said:


> IMO The mistake they are making (besides the absurd lineup of vehicles and iterations which ultimately add all kinds of costs) is not recognizing the real possibility of a slowing Chinese and US economy. This is exactly when you need incentives... not when interest rates are near 0 and the demand cycle is increasing.


Just depends on the model. Examples:

2018 330e: $6,750 if you have loyalty and lease

2019 330 SW: $4,250 with loyalty, lease or finance

2019 4-series: $5,500 with loyalty and finance

2019 5-series: $4,000 with loyalty and finance

The better incentives are attached to financing with BMWFS.


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## ctorrey (Mar 17, 2007)

pony_trekker said:


> Spike in interest rates/money factors has led to many of these leases no longer looking competitive. There's no way I am paying a hundred bucks more to lease the same car, not worth it.
> 
> Is there any one of these models where there's a drastic discount?
> 
> And not a fan enough of these cars to buy one cash -- rather spend that on something bulletproof but boring, e.g., land cruiser.


This is my fear. I leased a $64k 340xi in May of 2017 for under $550/mo (plus tax) with no cap cost reduction. We also leased a $54k X3 2.8i at the same time for under $500/mo (same conditions). Given the climbing money factors, decreasing residuals, changes to programs such as MSDs, etc., I fully expect a replacement '20 M340i to lease for $100 - $150/mo more than I'm paying now - depending on rebates and incentives. Similar story with the X3. My CA is going to have to work next time around if he expects leases 6 & 7 from me!


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

MJBrown62 said:


> Just depends on the model. Examples:
> 
> 2018 330e: $6,750 if you have loyalty and lease
> 
> ...


Yeah less aghast over buying an older model (4 series over the 5). I am. meh with another GC but not enough to keep forever.

4.55 i rate very uninticing. And always been lease or buy and keep forever.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

pony_trekker said:


> Yeah less aghast over buying an older model (4 series over the 5). I am. meh with another GC but not enough to keep forever.
> 
> 4.55 i rate very uninticing. And always been lease or buy and keep forever.


Right now for instance, southern cali is 4.55% interest rate to buy, but nor cal is advertised as 2.89% (or was when I looked a week ago). I know we have a big state, but thats two different interest rates in the same state with the regionalized incentives.

I could have bought and got 3.99 from my credit union, but ultimately decided to lease the X3 (which has a payment $75.00 more than the X5 it replaced, even though the X3 MSRP was ~67k and the X5 was ~75k). This is also with me getting a great deal on the X3, and extending my MSDs on it. if I got an "average" deal on it, or didnt re up my MSDs, the payment would have been >800 for sure.

If BMW had all that money on the 4 series when I was deciding a few months ago, I might be in a BMW 4 series now instead of my "other" car that I bought.

If BMW had pull ahead when I was deciding, I almost DEFINITELY would have been in another 4 series. By getting rid of the pull ahead, they are letting people "hit the open market" who are leasing... removing a main advantage they had to keep turning those over.

I just figure that some loss of customers was built into their models, but it doesnt help the dealer. Instead of me being a "2 new bmw every 3 years" household, for my car I am basically "off the market" as I bought i. For my wifes X3, we leased it, and will see where we go in 3 years.

I know for me, if they had pull ahead, I likely would not have looked outside of BMW because I love the brand (and still do).

With that being said, they need to replace customers who were used to these aggressive deals, with people who THIS pricing right now is the "normal" pricing. For every veteran they lose because the value proposition has changed, they need to pick up a new person, who only knows THIS pricing as the value proposition.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

jjrandorin said:


> ... With that being said, they need to replace customers who were used to these aggressive deals, with people who THIS pricing right now is the "normal" pricing. For every veteran they lose because the value proposition has changed, they need to pick up a new person, who only knows THIS pricing as the value proposition.


:thumbup:


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## deenx (Nov 11, 2011)

I don't really consider a 3-month pull ahead aggressive. Those three months mean nothing to BMW and really help to shore up customer brand loyalty. Companies spend fortunes trying to develop the customer base who are brand loyal like BMW. To see them throw it away in pursuit of the new customer seems like a rookie mistake. Once the veterans leave... you are starting over.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

deenx said:


> I don't really consider a 3-month pull ahead aggressive. Those three months mean nothing to BMW and really help to shore up customer brand loyalty. Companies spend fortunes trying to develop the customer base who are brand loyal like BMW. To see them throw it away in pursuit of the new customer seems like a rookie mistake. Once the veterans leave... you are starting over.


Those pull aheads likely were somewhere between 1500 -2500 a customer. I would consider that a pretty substantial amount. many people will shop dealers to save $200, and almost everyone would pick one dealer over another to save 1500-2k, so....


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

deenx said:


> I don't really consider a 3-month pull ahead aggressive. Those three months mean nothing to BMW and really help to shore up customer brand loyalty. Companies spend fortunes trying to develop the customer base who are brand loyal like BMW. To see them throw it away in pursuit of the new customer seems like a rookie mistake. Once the veterans leave... you are starting over.


Right. Instead of negotiating with someone while they are under contract, you are guaranteeing they hit the open market. At BMWs choice.

It would be as if the Nats refused to negotiate with Bryce Harper until he became a FA. Nothing could be more off-putting.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

pony_trekker said:


> Right. Instead of negotiating with someone while they are under contract, you are guaranteeing they hit the open market. At BMWs choice.
> 
> It would be as if the Nats refused to negotiate with Bryce Harper until he became a FA. Nothing could be more off-putting.


They are asking the dealers to take on the pull ahead out of dealer profit. But for below invoice buyers, that eliminates that option.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> They are asking the dealers to take on the pull ahead out of dealer profit. But for below invoice buyers, that eliminates that option.


Was it always like this, pull ahead out of dealer profit, or recently changed? Personally, I never have used pulled ahead, as I would rather extend the lease and amortization the bank fee over a few more months. Also, knowing the upcoming product pipeline launch dates, I would delay getting into a new lease so when it finished the new model would be on the market for greater than 1 year, as this when the discounts start. Also, I have delayed a new lease into the next calander year to quailify for the BMW CCA rebate with multiple leases.


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## deenx (Nov 11, 2011)

That's interesting and surprising. One of the many reasons all of us have been loyal BMW customers is how the dealerships treat the customer. If BMW is allowing the dealerships to use extra margin as they see fit, then it gets far more difficult to negotiate the deal. (Another topic for another time is the franchise dealer model. As this industry tries to transition to what's next.... the entire negotiation experience has got to change as it's only harboring resentment, frustration and is incredibly inefficient as it takes far too long to get the deal finished. While most of us try to do email deals, there are still parts of the country that are just not interested in communicating by email.)

In any event, I'm still trying to get a deal done on an X5. The lease is laughable and my advisor is laughing with me as he advised I try to wait until the summer. Unfortunately, that's not possible and BMW is going to lose this customer.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

deenx said:


> . In any event, I'm still trying to get a deal done on an X5. The lease is laughable and my advisor is laughing with me as he advised I try to wait until the summer. Unfortunately, that's not possible and BMW is going to lose this customer.


The G05 is an all-new model and a majority of the X vehicle line-up are strong sellers. Why should BMW NA offer strong incentives, as it's supply and demand? It's a for-profit business. Just wait until the economy contracts, which is expected with the ongoing government shutdown. Driving a BMW is a luxury, as any vehicle can get you from point A to B.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> Was it always like this, pull ahead out of dealer profit, or recently changed?


Changed when they ended the pull ahead. With the true pull ahead, BMWFS was absorbing the payments. Now we need to do it if we want to bring in clients off-lease early.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

deenx said:


> That's interesting and surprising. One of the many reasons all of us have been loyal BMW customers is how the dealerships treat the customer. If BMW is allowing the dealerships to use extra margin as they see fit, then it gets far more difficult to negotiate the deal. (Another topic for another time is the franchise dealer model. As this industry tries to transition to what's next.... the entire negotiation experience has got to change as it's only harboring resentment, frustration and is incredibly inefficient as it takes far too long to get the deal finished. While most of us try to do email deals, there are still parts of the country that are just not interested in communicating by email.)
> 
> In any event, I'm still trying to get a deal done on an X5. The lease is laughable and my advisor is laughing with me as he advised I try to wait until the summer. Unfortunately, that's not possible and BMW is going to lose this customer.


As Ibiza wisely noted, you're asking for a deal on BMW USA's best selling vehicle. And a 59% 10k residual is pretty good.

The problem is the lease is not competitive with a Q7 or GLS. Supply and Demand doesn't always work when a competitive lease is $100+ less a month comparatively.


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## bzcat (Sep 23, 2009)

There is a $10k dealer rebate on remaining 2018 Audi A6 and A7, and $15k on S6, S7, and RS7 right now. This is on top the the consumer rebate. So that's the one to get if you need a car right now... you should be able to get close to $20k off MSRP. Money factor blows but the sales price should be low enough to keep monthly lease payment reasonable.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

deenx said:


> I don't really consider a 3-month pull ahead aggressive. Those three months mean nothing to BMW and really help to shore up customer brand loyalty. Companies spend fortunes trying to develop the customer base who are brand loyal like BMW. To see them throw it away in pursuit of the new customer seems like a rookie mistake. Once the veterans leave... you are starting over.


Your argument would be correct if the veterans and the new customers were equally profitable. But the new guy is going to pay over invoice (maybe full MSRP), not going to get Loyalty, not going to get an OL code from a Drive event (or whatever it's called this year), not going to get a BMWCCA rebate, yada, yada. If I can fund butts to put into all the seats I manufacture, why wouldn't I want the most profitable butts I can find?

It's not so much that BMWNA doesn't like us old timers. They just don't need us as badly right now. Once the economy turns, they'll come back to us on bended knee.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

quackbury said:


> But the new guy is going to pay over invoice (maybe full MSRP) ...


Had to chuckle on that one ... other than on the M2, I'm not sure anyone is paying MSRP anymore.


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## DJSurly (Jun 28, 2010)

MJBrown62 said:


> Had to chuckle on that one ... other than on the M2, I'm not sure anyone is paying MSRP anymore.


That's the trouble I'm running into now. My lease on my '16 3 series ends in about 3 weeks (I've already made the final payment). My natural instinct is to go with the new 2019 3 series. I'm not interested in the 2018 models (because they're now dated in my eyes) even though I know those will be discounted. But my regular salesperson at my local dealer basically told me he's only offering MSRP on the incoming cars (they'll have some next week) because, in his words, it "Will be the hottest car out there for the next few months." He even tried to pull the "How much do you want to pay per month?" move on me like I was some inexperienced rube.

So, it looks like I may be moving on from the brand at this time because I have no interest in paying a premium now just because it's the newest model. I'm not some uber-enthusiast who has to have the new one right on release date. It's just timing is all.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

DJSurly said:


> That's the trouble I'm running into now. My lease on my '16 3 series ends in about 3 weeks (I've already made the final payment). My natural instinct is to go with the new 2019 3 series. I'm not interested in the 2018 models (because they're now dated in my eyes) even though I know those will be discounted. But my regular salesperson at my local dealer basically told me he's only offering MSRP on the incoming cars (they'll have some next week) because, in his words, it "Will be the hottest car out there for the next few months." He even tried to pull the "How much do you want to pay per month?" move on me like I was some inexperienced rube.
> 
> So, it looks like I may be moving on from the brand at this time because I have no interest in paying a premium now just because it's the newest model. I'm not some uber-enthusiast who has to have the new one right on release date. It's just timing is all.


Yeah I am not some kid on line at Supreme. I emailed my sales guy and have a feeling the steer toward loaners is going to happen. No interest.

I will take a peek at A6. The price may turn out oK but the residuals look disgusting, I got a gift card for test driving an A5 recently and while I thought the car was fine, I didn't appreciate the whole 4 squares song and dance and being clowned with an obscene lease quote. Which I didn't even ask for.

I am also seeing Volvo has some interesting programs. Already have one for the kid.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

MJBrown62 said:


> As Ibiza wisely noted, you're asking for a deal on BMW USA's best selling vehicle. And a 59% 10k residual is pretty good.
> 
> The* problem is the lease is not competitive with a Q7 or GLS. Supply and Demand doesn't always work* when a competitive lease is $100+ less a month comparatively.


The real issue


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

DJSurly said:


> That's the trouble I'm running into now. My lease on my '16 3 series ends in about 3 weeks (I've already made the final payment).
> 
> So, it looks like I may be moving on from the brand at this time because I have no interest in paying a premium now just because it's the newest model. I'm not some uber-enthusiast who has to have the new one right on release date. It's just timing is all.


BMWFS will extend your lease if you have another BMW on order. Hit up Greg Poland at Pacific BMW and order the exact car you want, at a deal you will love. Drive the current one for 2 more months till it arrives. If you decide you don't like the 2019 just refuse delivery; Greg will have no problem finding another buyer for it.


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## DJSurly (Jun 28, 2010)

quackbury said:


> BMWFS will extend your lease if you have another BMW on order. Hit up Greg Poland at Pacific BMW and order the exact car you want, at a deal you will love. Drive the current one for 2 more months till it arrives. If you decide you don't like the 2019 just refuse delivery; Greg will have no problem finding another buyer for it.


Thanks, that helps! I've already reached out to Greg to see what they've got on the way; they expect stock around the 22nd.

I have considered the lease extension. However, if I do, then I'll have to renew my license tag (expires Feb 9), which is $400, so I have to consider that cost as well.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Both Volvo and Infiniti have very good deals at this time. Volvo is already discounting the all new S60.
Infiniti on the other hand has extremely cheap lease deals on the Q50, QX50, and QX60. But people are willing to pay $200 more a month for a X3 compared to a QX50. Since the X3 is outselling the QX50 by a 2 to 1 margin.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## BatteryPowered (Feb 16, 2011)

I think part of the problem right now is that BMW has a lot of new cars coming out (X5, 3 series, X3 was updated last year, etc.) and there aren't as many deals to be had. BMW corporate also pulled a lot of support from dealers and passed on the cost to them. Finally, we're on top of "hot" economy and relatively high borrowing rates do not help with leasing.
After leasing for almost 10 years, decided to get used X3, as I wanted inline 6 turbo and that is very expensive lease these days.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

BatteryPowered said:


> I think part of the problem right now is that BMW has a lot of new cars coming out (X5, 3 series, X3 was updated last year, etc.) and there aren't as many deals to be had. BMW corporate also pulled a lot of support from dealers and passed on the cost to them. Finally, we're on top of "hot" economy and relatively high borrowing rates do not help with leasing.
> After leasing for almost 10 years, decided to get used X3, as I wanted inline 6 turbo and that is very expensive lease these days.


Disagree, was able to obtain a 2019 X3 sDrive for @IbizasWife this past fall at $1,000 below invoice inclusion of $2,500 incentives-buy rate MF.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> Disagree, was able to obtain a 2019 X3 sDrive for @IbizasWife this past fall at $1,000 below invoice inclusion of $2,500 incentives-buy rate MF.


You are a special client ...

mjb


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> You are a special client ...
> 
> mjb


@MJB, its just like the airlines, if you're a loyal top tier frequent flyer, there are plenty of perks such as complimentary upgrades, free baggage, lounge access-- customer loyalty is rewarded. Posting Infiniti and Volvo incentives is just playing the field. Why would a CA take this customer seriously and offer the best price from the start--just cut to chase without the BS. Building and mainataining loyal relationships still goes a long way today.


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## DJSurly (Jun 28, 2010)

Ibiza said:


> @MJB, its just like the airlines, if you're a loyal top tier frequent flyer, there are plenty of perks such as complimentary upgrades, free baggage, lounge access-- customer loyalty is rewarded. Posting Infiniti and Volvo incentives is just playing the field. Why would a CA take this customer seriously and offer the best price from the start--just cut to chase without the BS. Building and mainataining loyal relationships still goes a long way today.


You're describing the issue I'm having with my CA. I've been a customer of this BMW dealership since 2010 - first as a service customer (my wife owned a BMW when we moved to the area), and since then, I've leased 2 BMWs from them. Sure, in both cases, I did my research to see what other local dealers had in stock, their pricing, etc, but it was more for reference because my CA always gave me the best price/deal. So here I am now, a loyal customer, and before last week, I hadn't reached out to any other dealers yet. My CA contacted me last week to state that they expect the 2019 3 series stock to begin arriving next week, and asked if I'd be interested in reserving one. I said "Maybe, but depends on price and what you receive." Instead of speaking to me like the loyal customer that I am and offering to work with me on a fair deal, he basically told me that if I want a deal, I'll have to choose a 2018 model because the 2019s will be "The hottest car out there for months." He then pulled the typical slimy salesperson crap of "How much do you want to pay per month and how much do you want to put down?"

I know the deals on 2018s will be better - they want to move out old inventory. I also know there may be some enthusiasts out there who have to have the latest and greatest right on release date, regardless of price. But I would think an experienced CA would at least _consider_ working with me on price to keep me as a client. "Play the long game," as the saying goes. Could he maybe get someone to pay more? Sure. Will that customer ever come back? Hard to predict.

I've got a great job now and prospects for growth are strong. Maybe, if he works hard to keep me happy, the next time around, I'll be looking at a 5 series. But he's not thinking that way, so now I'm not planning from buying from him ever again, even though that dealership is literally 5 minutes away from me.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DJSurly said:


> I've been a customer of this BMW dealership since 2010 - I've leased 2 BMWs from them.
> .


Where is the economies of scale? None. The deals are for the people leasing multiple BMW's at a time every 3 years-- not one every 5 years. As a CA you know these customers will be with you during both a bad and good economy-- as the bad is coming. Buckle up.


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## DJSurly (Jun 28, 2010)

Ibiza said:


> Where is the economies of scale? None. The deals are for the people leasing multiple BMW's at a time every 3 years-- not one every 5 years. As a CA you know these customers will be with you during both a bad and good economy-- as the bad is coming. Buckle up.


I lease every 3 years. Started in 2010 as a customer of their service department. Became a leasing customer in 2013.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Here is the reality of these "Lifetime Value" assumptions. In 13+ years, I have had a few prolific clients. Multiple leases per "family" or business over the course of several years. 10-13 cars over the lifetime.

And I have had other customers that my total commission on two deals are more than the total of all 10 of one client's deals that were sold at a mini commission. Hours of premium service for less overall pay.

But, you know what, it's what we do. You get to your bonus (maybe). You get a "spin" from BMW (maybe.) You get a paycheck.

So I get a little heated when someone says they will "never go back" to that once "great CA" who gave them the deals before when he or she rightfully asks for market value on a new product.

Do you really give them a chance to work with you on a price? Or is that lip service for "they didn't give me the same discount as I got on my model year #5 3-series I last leased?"

Don't know ...


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> @MJB, its just like the airlines, if you're a loyal top tier frequent flyer, there are plenty of perks such as complimentary upgrades, free baggage, lounge access-- customer loyalty is rewarded. Posting Infiniti and Volvo incentives is just playing the field. Why would a CA take this customer seriously and offer the best price from the start--just cut to chase without the BS. Building and mainataining loyal relationships still goes a long way today.


Big difference between frequent flyer perks and getting new models at under invoice pricing. A better comparison is if you get every airline ticket you have to pay for at significantly less than the guy sitting beside you. (free upgrades notwithstanding.)

As a CA I have had more clients in the past 1-2 years that have been those loyal clients that have walked away from me and my Center because it's too easy to shop the numbers.

And you know what? If they say to me, "I've enjoyed working with you over the years. It's not you, it's the numbers," I'm 100% OK with that.

But when I hear, "Maybe, if he works hard to keep me happy, the next time around, I'll be looking at _____. But he's not thinking that way, so now I'm not planning from buying from him ever again," well, it is disappointing. Sorry for using your words, DJSurly.


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## DJSurly (Jun 28, 2010)

MJBrown62 said:


> Big difference between frequent flyer perks and getting new models at under invoice pricing. A better comparison is if you get every airline ticket you have to pay for at significantly less than the guy sitting beside you. (free upgrades notwithstanding.)
> 
> As a CA I have had more clients in the past 1-2 years that have been those loyal clients that have walked away from me and my Center because it's too easy to shop the numbers.
> 
> ...


I think we're getting our wires crossed, and I apologize if I'm not being clear. I don't mean to imply that I'm expecting him to "Work hard to keep me happy." I'm not saying "I've bought from him before so I expect him to give me amazing pricing every single time." What I _am_ saying is it was a little surprising to have him talk to me like an inexperienced buyer, or someone he's never sold to before. And while I do expect to hear "The deals on the 2018 models will be better" (of course that makes sense), I did not expect to hear "MSRP or nothing."

I should also clarify that I have _not_ had the best experiences with this CA, but I've still bought exclusively from him. When I first leased in 2013, I went in to the dealer to finish the deal (did the initial work over email) and had asked about any sort of "BMW loyalty discount" since my wife had, until 1 month prior, owned a 3 series; the one I took to that dealer for service. They told me no because she was the owner, not me. Fair enough. Anyway, we continue the paperwork and then the CA says "Oh, by the way - it turns out this car has rims that aren't 'stock' rims and they cost more. We could put stock rims on it, or if you want, we'll give you a special deal on these rims." I said "No thanks, I'll take the stock rims." The CA left for a while and then came back. He then said "Good news - we're going to give you the BMW loyalty discount." I thought this was great, but then he continued on with the paperwork. I said "Wait - am I just getting the discount, or is that to cover the cost of the rims?" He said it was to cover the rims, even though _I specifically said I did not want them_. I got up and began to walk out, but the manager came back and saved the deal after much apologizing from him.

So no, I have not "enjoyed" working with this CA 100%. I'm just a little surprised that he was "MSRP only!" right out of the gate, and right into the "How much do you want to pay per month?" talk. Perhaps if he was more careful in his wording, I wouldn't have been so bothered. Something along the lines of "Honestly, if it's a deal you're after, your best bet is a 2018. Demand will be high on the incoming 2019s, but since you're a returning customer, let me see what I can do." Just _some_ sort of offer to work with me a little. Because yes, if he had done that, I wouldn't even bother checking out prices from other dealers. I don't want that hassle. When I checked out other dealers the last time I leased from him, it wasn't because of price, but because he didn't have the one I really wanted in stock. But he offered a fair price right out of the gate without any of the typical care salesman BS, so I stuck with him.

I'm in sales. Maybe car sales are different, but in my world, making an effort to keep a customer long term can have its benefits.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

So I got an email a few days ago inviting me to a BMW Winter xDrive Experience at a local ski slope with the promise of a $1k. Yeah, sounds like fun driving up to a budget ski place on the busiest weekend of the year but wait "All registered participants will receive $1,000* towards the purchase or lease of a new BMW, valid until June 30, 2019" gave me hope. 

I trudged up there later than I would have liked to. Squeezed my car between a Volvo and a tree (begging the parking lot guy because every lot within 3 miles was full) and trudged a mile through the snow and mud to the BMW driving experience, figuring there was a dedicated snow trail or something. Hoped to drive an X1 but I think someone made off with it (they couldn't find it) so I settled on an X2. But, no dedicated trail -- basically you take a lap around the parking lot and down a few local streets. 

Actually, that car handled well. Firmer steering than I have had on a BMW since my 2008 E92. The only glitch is you cannot see behind you. Sort of had to back out using side mirrors only, box-truck style, Got my code before I even returned the car.

Came back home and ran some numbers. For the bare bones X1 and X2 I am STILL looking at a lease of $560 and change a month assuming an invoice minus incentives price. For that I could lease far more car with quite a number of brands.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

If I am buying used, it is not t gonna be a BMW. It would be a Lexus or Toyota to drive til the wheels fall off.

But tha;s just me


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Not everyone can afford the wasteful luxury of owning/driving a BMW.....

And yes, at some point is really is just an indulgence. No matter how we justify the deals and values. Seems BMW willing to pay the price to 'reset' the market....


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

ard said:


> Not everyone can afford the wasteful luxury of owning/driving a BMW.....
> 
> And yes, at some point is really is just an indulgence. No matter how we justify the deals and values. Seems BMW willing to pay the price to 'reset' the market....


The question is whether it is worth a premium versus other brands. Being that it is moving toward less sporty (and more like Lexus, Infiniti) and costing us a premium over those cars, it's looking lose lose for me.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

Squeak said:


> $80/yr with first year free ends up being almost the exact same cost as a $300 one time charge for the majority of people who lease on a 3-year cycle.


Standard on many cars.


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## Squeak (Sep 13, 2014)

pony_trekker said:


> Standard on many cars.


That can be said about tons of features on BMW's vs other cars. CarPlay is no different in that regard, and they are still the only one who have invested in wireless CP so far.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Squeak said:


> That can be said about tons of features on BMW's vs other cars. CarPlay is no different in that regard, and they are still the only one who have invested in wireless CP so far.


Amen!


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Squeak said:


> That can be said about tons of features on BMW's vs other cars. CarPlay is no different in that regard, and they are still the only one who have invested in wireless CP so far.





MJBrown62 said:


> *And, guess what, BMW is the ONLY manufacturer to offer wireless CarPlay* Get a Benz, plug in your phone. Same with everyone else.
> 
> I'd be more insulted that the other makers have plug in your phone, and often make you choose between systems when it is plugged in.


What's insulting is that BMW still doesn't support Android Auto! Android based devices comprise something like 85% of smartphones and two thirds of tablets sold last year.

It's not a big deal for me, as I don't use smartphones or tablets while I'm in my car. But it's odd that BMW (Toyota too) still isn't onboard with the dominant platform for mobile devices and the mirroring app that goes with it.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

gkr778 said:


> What's insulting is that BMW still doesn't support Android Auto! Android based devices comprise something like 85% of smartphones and two thirds of tablets sold last year.
> 
> It's not a big deal for me, as I don't use smartphones or tablets while I'm in my car. But it's odd that BMW (Toyota too) still isn't onboard with the dominant platform for mobile devices and the mirroring app that goes with it.


I'm throwing out Amens left and right here.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

Squeak said:


> That can be said about tons of features on BMW's vs other cars. CarPlay is no different in that regard, and they are still the only one who have invested in wireless CP so far.


While charging a premium . . .


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## Squeak (Sep 13, 2014)

pony_trekker said:


> While charging a premium . . .


$160 for a $60k car is a premium worth arguing about? What about sunshades? Or heated seats? Or navigation?

Seems like an odd battle to fight.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

pony_trekker said:


> While charging a premium . . .


BMWs are priced at a premium for the driving technology, not the infotainment systems.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Toyota finally has a infotainment system that just as good as idrive. But it only found in the new Supra 

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Toyota finally has a infotainment system that just as good as idrive. But it only found in the new Supra 

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

BMW deals are still out there............ talk to me personally and i'll help any festers' out.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

eazy said:


> Toyota finally has a infotainment system that just as good as idrive. But it only found in the new Supra


And in Toyota tradition, it lacks Android Auto. :rofl:


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

Sorry fan boys, gotta go. 

Opted for the new Volvo S60. Quicker, quieter, handles better, more tech, less money . Volvo ate 7 months of another volvo lease and let me buy that one for residual waiving typical fees. 

Let's see how it holds up for 3 years.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

pony_trekker said:


> Sorry fan boys, gotta go.
> 
> Opted for the new Volvo S60. Quicker, quieter, handles better, more tech, less money . Volvo ate 7 months of another volvo lease and let me buy that one for residual waiving typical fees.
> 
> Let's see how it holds up for 3 years.


What type of deal did you get. Inscription, momentum, or r design? T5 or t6

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

eazy said:


> What type of deal did you get. Inscription, momentum, or r design? T5 or t6
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Fair. T6 RDesign got about 7% off MSRP minus loyalty.

I am sure the deals will be better in a few months/year.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> I would challenge that the G series is less "lexus / infiniti" like than the F series was. The X3 M40i is a delight to drive, for example. I was not interested in X1 / X2 at all, and not the 5 series either.
> 
> The X3 M40 we have is my wifes but it drives really well. It feels smaller than it is.
> 
> ...


Yep. Perfectly stated and I agree. As it stands now, I am still firmly a BMW guy. We will see what happens in 22 months when the F80 comes off lease. FWIW, I have shopped around in the past and have not found something that speaks to me like a M car so I still think I'll end up with the G80/82 M3 or M4.

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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

deenx said:


> Hard to believe you guys were able to get a 7 handle...I got a quote yesterday for the X3 M40i.... MSRP $65,970 36/12K $956/month $2K inception. Absolutely ridiculous.


Good grief. That's M3 money.

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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> My experience with the forums is that members can be hyper-critical on both the cars and the programs. And they have been willing and happy participants the "race to the bottom" pricing that has put BMW in this place.
> 
> Having had the opportunity to drive BMWs and the competitors, I still find it a specious argument that there are better, cheaper cars out there. We can talk about style and design, which are subjective, but engineering, I just don't believe that the Genesis is as nice of a drive, or as safe, or as able to avoid an accident, as a 540.
> 
> My 2¢.


You are correct. Whenever I shop the competition, I usually walk away feeling like the savings is being paid for by virtue of the competition being a much lower quality car. Hence why you keep seeing me buy new BMW's year after year.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## mauicoug (Apr 20, 2009)

As I'm a Boomer, coming toward retirement, I have my own perspective. I have watched over the last few years, great deals come and go.... not so much over the last 2. Inflation and interest rates are rising, yet as a government manager, my wages are stagnant. I'm sure BMW management has a vision and plan in mind. It just doesn't fit my needs. Everyone gets to decide what they are willing to pay and what the cars offer them. Since I only drive about 6000 miles a year(being stuck on an island) leasing makes no sense. I wanted one more fun car, either an inline 6 128i vert or a Porsche Boxster. I did a lot of looking online and saw some good prices. I was in the Phoenix area over Thanksgiving and went to look at several cars. I found a Porsche Boxster S, with a 6 speed manual on the showroom floor in Chandler. Wow, what a car ... I shipped it back to Hawaii and I couldn't be happier. I never would of thought I would buy a 12 year old car, but this one is great. So, what I'm saying is, each person needs to decide what is important to them and to make the best informed decision you can. Best of luck to everyone in their search.....


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Whenever I shop the competition, I usually walk away feeling like the savings is being paid for by virtue of the competition being a much lower quality car.


Is it just feeling, or did you find objective evidence "of the competition being a much lower quality car" during your research/shopping/test drives?


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

gkr778 said:


> Is it just feeling, or did you find objective evidence "of the competition being a much lower quality car" during your research/shopping/test drives?


During research and test drives. For example, I drove my M4 to the Lexus dealer to test drive the Lexus RC-F. I drove my M3 to the Alfa dealer to test drive the Giulia Quadrifoglio. I drove my x6 to the Benz dealer to test drive the GLE AMG 43 coupe. I would never rely on gut feelings and I put each car through its paces and compare to the BMW product. Some of the cars do come quite close to the BMW, but not enough to make me cross over.....yet.

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## deenx (Nov 11, 2011)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Good grief. That's M3 money.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Florida dealers (and BMW) evidently don't understand the concept of the demand curve from their economics courses.


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