# Buttonwillow Aug 7th by STUSA: I actually came back in one piece.



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> I'd like to think it's a variety of teaching techniques that people will respond to. For folks like you and I who like to sit down and analyze things, tools like this will help us tremendously to pinpoint our weak spots or mistakes or bad habits imediately, and we will benefit tremendously from someone who can look at the graph, in combination with driving with you on the track, to be able to pin point where and when you're braking too much into a turn and loosing too much speed and momentum.


Yeah... so long as you don't let it make you lose focus while you're actually on track... the times when a driver loses focus... things happen... like agricultural excursions... (speaking from my own experience... :eeps:  :rofl: )



> However, with other people, analytical data like this will only confuse them. More instinctive drivers like Doeboy will probably prefer teaching in the more traditional sense in how the car "feels" to them and will probably progress quicker with a more verbal approach, while guys like us will progress through analyzing our data and figuring out stuff in a methodical, step by step process.


It tends to confuse me more at this point because I don't quite know how to interpret it all just yet... once someone teaches me what the data means and how to read the stuff, I think it'd be great info to have... after I get out of the car... 



> If the data acquisition unit is portable, I would love to see it hooked up to various SCTS machines during the day to gather data for comparison. If nothing else, guys like Sergio and Raffi will be able to give us input and feedback after the event based on captured data...This would totally be tite if we can map the data onto GPS track layout and synchronized to video captured while on track. Honestly, you should talk to racing schools like Russel, Skip Barbar, or Derek Daly to see if they'd be interested in a setup like this in their classrooms.


I wonder if Skip Barber already has something similar on their Formula Dodge cars that they use for the race schools. Hmmm.... but syncing with video would be sweet... but I wonder if you've been playing a little too much GT4 lately....   :rofl:

But yes... definitely has a lot of potential... keep up the great work! :thumbup:


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> but I wonder if you've been playing a little too much GT4 lately....   :rofl:


I dunno what you're talking about. 4 hours a day during the week and 8 hours a day on the weekend is NOT too much GT4.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> I dunno what you're talking about. 4 hours a day during the week and 8 hours a day on the weekend is NOT too much GT4.


:rofl:


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Oh...so which two berms are repaved?? Let the guessing begin please.


Hmm... Talladega? Bus Stop?


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

I vote Bus Stop... those berms are pretty slick, but if they redo then a 'la esses style, it's gonna be painful to go through that section.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SergioK said:


> I vote Bus Stop... those berms are pretty slick, but if they redo then a 'la esses style, it's gonna be painful to go through that section.


not to mention the nice hole at the end of the berm at track out...


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

I maybe putting something together just to log G, speed, RPM, mapping track, lap/sector timing. Can analyze entry, exit speed and stuff. I am willing to fork out $$ into this cos this is what I love doing. We can really compare our driving styles.

Catch?

You have to join me at my indie events. Cos I rather not loan out a 4-digit worth of equipment at an event I am not attending.

So what do you say? :angel:



The HACK said:


> If the data acquisition unit is portable, I would love to see it hooked up to various SCTS machines during the day to gather data for comparison.


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> I maybe putting something together just to log G, speed, RPM, mapping track, lap/sector timing. Can analyze entry, exit speed and stuff. I am willing to fork out $$ into this cos this is what I love doing. We can really compare our driving styles.
> 
> Catch?
> 
> ...


No need to twist my arm. Let me know when you do SpeedVenture the next time and I'll be there.

Not going to jump right into STUSA right away.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> I maybe putting something together just to log G, speed, RPM, mapping track, lap/sector timing. Can analyze entry, exit speed and stuff. I am willing to fork out $$ into this cos this is what I love doing. We can really compare our driving styles.
> 
> Catch?
> 
> ...


Think we can get enough of us to go so that we completely fill up our own run group? :eeps: :angel:


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

SergioK said:


> I vote Bus Stop... those berms are pretty slick, but if they redo then a 'la esses style, it's gonna be painful to go through that section.


Sigh...only two folks guessing. What's up! :tsk:

Anyway, yes, going CW, it's the berm on the left coming out of bus-stop and going CW, it's the berm on the right coming out of riverside.

I will be at Buttonwillow again in 2.5 weeks so full review of the two re-paved berms to follow.


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Yeah, I am an arm twister not a _lap_ stroker. :eeps:

My schedule til Oct:

Aug 14 Big Willow by SV
Aug 26 Buttonwillow by SV
Sept 21 Big Willow by OTR
Oct 1st/2nd Buttonwillow by SV
Oct 14 Buttonwillow by SV



The HACK said:


> No need to twist my arm. Let me know when you do SpeedVenture the next time and I'll be there.
> 
> Not going to jump right into STUSA right away.


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Sigh...only two folks guessing. What's up! :tsk:
> 
> Anyway, yes, going CW, it's the berm on the left coming out of bus-stop and going CW, it's the berm on the right coming out of riverside.
> 
> I will be at Buttonwillow again in 2.5 weeks so full review of the two re-paved berms to follow.


1: The berm on the left coming out of the bus-stop: Don't go near it. I spun the Z4 when I went over it. It's high enough to knock your car sideways if you go too far up that berm. If they re-paved it, it may make it less unsettling if you just touch the berm, because last I remembered, that particular berm is pretty beaten up.

2: The Telledegha berm: Hm, they better have left that berm low, not like the berms through the esses...I like riding up that berm.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Anyway, yes, going CW, it's the berm on the left coming out of bus-stop and going CW, it's the berm on the right coming out of riverside.


:clap: what did I win?  j/k


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> 1: The berm on the left coming out of the bus-stop: Don't go near it. I spun the Z4 when I went over it. It's high enough to knock your car sideways if you go too far up that berm. If they re-paved it, it may make it less unsettling if you just touch the berm, because last I remembered, that particular berm is pretty beaten up.
> 
> 2: The Telledegha berm: Hm, they better have left that berm low, not like the berms through the esses...I like riding up that berm.


Don't know what they did to the berms... but I hope they flattened the one at the bus stop a little... and fixed or made the berm at talladega/riverside longer... there was that nice hole there at the side that you did not want your tire to get into there.


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

If you're familiar with the track, this will be interesting

+Y = braking
-Y = acceleration
+X = left hander
-X = right hander


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> If you're familiar with the track, this will be interesting
> 
> +Y = braking
> -Y = acceleration
> ...


Interesting. How does the sensor log data? Is it once every few seconds? I would think the curves needs to be smoothed out.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> If you're familiar with the track, this will be interesting
> 
> +Y = braking
> -Y = acceleration
> ...


Neat stuff....


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> Interesting. How does the sensor log data? Is it once every few seconds? I would think the curves needs to be smoothed out.


I hate to admit the sampling rate is very coarse cos of the way I integrate all the sensors in my system. Either I have to upgrade the existing hardware or use a separate system to log just the g-sensors, speed and RPM and GPS. Or basically, separate out data that are highly dynamic.

Btw, I manually labeled the plot with the small notes. Still, from this plot you can get an idea how I drove one lap around Buttonwillow. What's lacking (and I really needed) is a corresponding track map of what happened at which sector. If you look at the Y data at Riverside, you notice that the car felt a forward force as indicated by the positive Y. It is obvious that this is not caused by braking but by throttle steering, in which case, I believe over did it.

Also look at Buttonhook and Star Mazda. Did you notice at the instance when Y is positive, X is negative? These were the two turns I used trail braking. A little hard to see but you get the idea.

It's amazing to see how much one can read from this plot. Now I am more than eager to attend the next event.

EDIT: actually, there is more trail braking at Star Mazda in this lap than Buttonhook. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

The last time I pulled ASCII data from a GPS was about 10 years ago via RS232... the sampling rate was quite slow. I think every couple seconds, maybe once a second... either way, still too slow. Funny enough, I still have that GPS tucked away in the closet. Even our new one only updates twice per second but alas does not have the ability to output.


----------



## FierySphere (Jul 11, 2004)

I'm entering this discussion a bit late, but here are some thoughts.

Firstly, the X-Y plot of g-data is as good as we are going to get, when it comes to traction circle data. I don't think even F1 has g sensors on the tire. On the hub, maybe...

The shape of the plot will tend towards the Superman symbol in shape (or slightly truncated triangle shaped). Here is a plot from a Daytona Prototype at Laguna this year.

<img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~stevewalsh/_uimages/DP%20-%20Gplot.jpg>

You will notice that the 'top' is quite flat. In this case that is caued by traction control. In our cars traction control plays a part, but so does the ability to generate acceleration forces. Sure we feel the push in the seat 0-30, but what about 70-80 ?

Secondly, the traction circle is really a traction profile. Since no tire will exhibit exactly the same responce to g-forces in each if the 4 planes (left, right, acceleration and braking). But even with the 'profile' the ideal pattern will look something like the Superman symbol I suggest. The flatten top, as compared to the spikier bottom is a result of the shorter time we spend with the steering turned, as we accelerate. Too much steering input and we get a spin ...


----------

