# UPDATE: 325i Good Enough?



## bender73 (May 22, 2003)

I think the 325 vs. 330 debate will never end...and that's ok. Everyone is different. Some crave power while others like a peppy car that looks beautiful. I think the 325 has plenty of power and like someone said here...80% of people with a lot of HP don't use it. I mean, I would love an M3, but I also know that I would lose my license if I got one. 

The 325 with a stick definitely performs better than the numbers. I think, with BMW's limited drivtrain loss, a 325 is likely equal to a lot of other cars rated at 200HP. Would I like a 330? Sure. Would I love an M3? Oh yea!!! Am I satisfied with my 325ci? Definitely.

These are bimmers we're talking about so IMO, they are all simply great cars.


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> *So why didn't you get the M3? The M3 has more HP than a 330. *


He obviously meant within the range (both price and power) that the original purchaser is considering. Saying that you should lean toward the bigger of the 2 engines you are considering is not the same as saying everyone should buy the biggest engine that exists.


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## bavarian19 (May 11, 2003)

savjam, just wondering... im between a 325 and the is300... what is it about the 325 that made you choose it over the is? (assuming you drove the is manual also)

:dunno:


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

ajt819 said:


> *savjam, just wondering... im between a 325 and the is300... what is it about the 325 that made you choose it over the is? (assuming you drove the is manual also)
> 
> :dunno: *


I was down to these 2 cars before deciding on my 325.

I drove an IS 300 5 spd with 17's and Z-rated tires, and the 325i 5 spd SP

A few reasons why:

The IS has an engine with specs almost exactly as the 330, and the 325 numbers are just as quick as the IS.

Little things like much more luxurious looking interior than the IS. The IS looks more appealing to a younger crowd. The quality of interior I felt was better in the BMW

The stick in the IS had much more vibration in it and the ride wasn't nearly as solid as the 325.

The car was a little more noisy too than the 325, road noise etc.

The IS had less options (no Xenons, or leather) it had the leather/escaine package which was nice. I don't know how the escaine compares to alcantra cause I have never seen alcantra in person.

Other little things such as the 325 had one touch up and down on all windows and moonroof where the IS had it only for the driver window.

The cars were almost the same price, the IS being a little cheaper but for the drive, quality, look, feel, and everything else you get with a BMW, it was more than worth getting a 325.

If you have not driven them back to back, do so and you will see for yourself, an IS is in the 330 class but a 325 is worth getting over the IS :thumbup:


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

tgravo2 said:


> *The IS looks more appealing to a younger crowd. *


It appeals to people younger than you? Are these people even allowed to drive yet? :rofl:


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

PhilH said:


> *It appeals to people in a younger crowd than you? Are these people even allowed to drive yet? :rofl: *


No I meant a younger crowd than the average BMW buyer which I expect to be older than me  I wanted the more sophisticated look while still having great performance. The IS looked too childish to me


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

PhilH said:


> *It appeals to people younger than you? Are these people even allowed to drive yet? :rofl: *


:rofl: I guess Travis is mature for his age. :eeps:


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

tgravo2 said:


> *I wanted the more sophisticated look *


You just wanted to attract a different class of chicks. Judging by your Europe trip, I guess it worked!


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

tgravo2 said:


> *No I meant a younger crowd than the average BMW buyer which I expect to be older than me  I wanted the more sophisticated look while still having great performance. The IS looked too childish to me  *


I can relate to what you say tgravo. After all I just turned 24. It's funny because sometimes people hear me make comments like "that cars for the college graduate kids." And I myself just graduated a couple of years ago. Then again I have always been years ahead in maturity, etc. This can be both good and bad.


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

rumatt said:


> *You just wanted to attract a different class of chicks. Judging by your Europe trip, I guess it worked!  *


:rofl: I'll tell you if it worked when I get back


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> *I can relate to what you say tgravo. After all I just turned 24. It's funny because sometimes people hear me make comments like "that cars for the college graduate kids." And I myself just graduated a couple of years ago. Then again I have always been years ahead in maturity, etc. This can be both good and bad. *


A lot of times I still think I am young (which I am) but I feel so old. I felt like I just graduated high school and now I am halfway done with college, about to turn 20, and I just went to my sister's high school graduation friday night. That really made me feel old. Things are just going faster by the second.


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## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

tgravo2 said:


> *A lot of times I still think I am young (which I am) but I feel so old. I felt like I just graduated high school and now I am halfway done with college, about to turn 20, and I just went to my sister's high school graduation friday night. That really made me feel old. Things are just going faster by the second. *


I'm just mad I missed the belly button ring generation...

:bawling:


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## Matthew330Ci (Sep 9, 2002)

i'm 25 now, so i must have been about 21 or so when the is300 first came out. i hated it back then, i hate it even more now for spawning all these ghey altezza taillights.

the car seems designed to appeal to high school kids. and not coincidentally, most ARE driven by high school kids around here. (even though, probably just as many high school kids drive e46s  )


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## blackhawk77 (Mar 16, 2003)

PhilH said:


> *Ditto. The 3 liter was the #1 "option" I needed on my E46. No regrets. *


Ditto.:thumbup:


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

ajt819 said:


> *savjam, just wondering... im between a 325 and the is300... what is it about the 325 that made you choose it over the is? (assuming you drove the is manual also)
> 
> :dunno: *


The IS300 almost fit my needs perfectly. It has a great engine, very responsive, loves to rev and sounds like a race car doing it. The manual was a pleasure to use even though the clutch was little bit on the light side. The steering on the car was very direct with a perfect weighting. The seats were very comfortable with an excellent driving position. But ....

- Did not like the boy racer styling or the plasticky interior.
- In Size it was a bit smaller than the BMW, especially in the back.
- In Handling, it felt almost equal to the BMW.
- In Ride it was not as good as the BMW.
- In Structure, it felt slightly less solid than the BMW.

- In crash safety rating, it was equal to the BMW.

Out of all the cars I test drove, the IS300 was the closest in feel to the BMW. It is a nice car but I liked the overall feel of the BMW much better.


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

savjam said:


> *It [IS300] is a nice car but I liked the overall feel of the BMW much better. *


I would like to clarify "overall feel" as best I can, it not easy to put into words but I will try. The BMW has a very solid "one piece feel" that gives the driver more confidence of feeling in control of the car. It also has a more sophisticated suspension. When riding over bad roads, the suspension dampens the harshness but doesn't loose it composure or feedback through the steering.

Hope this is clear.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Savjam,

I drove the IS300, and I found that it was not that great. It was good, but the shifter would shake in your hand while in gear, and it felt kind of odd when popping it into each gear. A bit too mechanical for me.

The car felt more upright to me. I like how the BMW feels low and seems to hug the ground in comparison. The driver is nicely nestled in the sport seat with a relatively high shifter, with elbow supported by a perfectly placed armrest.

The biggest surprise in driving the 325i was how powerful and torquey if felt - it felt just as good, if not better than the Lexus. I became annoyed at how the Lexus dealer compared the IS300 to the 330i. It needs to be compared to the 325i when it comes to performance. Another important point is that the IS is known to get very poor gas mileage. Either of the E46's will get you much better numbers at the pump.

The E46 is certainly a much better car.


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## Matthew330Ci (Sep 9, 2002)

somehow this has turned into a e46 vs. is300 discussion. 

to add my 2 cents, in addition to the 2 a few posts above, i found the seating position on the IS300 to be perfect for me and i loved the clutch and the shifter, much better than the e46's, and the engine has a nice refined growl as you rev to redline. steering and handling were different but about the same as the e46, but the power was kinda lacking, comparable to the 325 instead of the 330. plus, in my opinion the lexus would be more trouble free than a bimmer and lexus dealers bend over backwards to kiss your ass as opposed to hmmm, bmw dealers.

those are what i liked about the is.


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

Well, after much deliberation between the 330i and the 325i, I decided to order the 325iwith the following options: 

Silver Gray, 
SP, 
HK Sound, 
Trip Computer, 
Fold Down Rear Seats, 
and contrary to my previous post, I ordered the Wood trim.

Why didn't i get the 330i? 

Well I test drove the 325i again and decided that its engine performance was sufficiently good enough for an enjoyable driving experience.

Thanks for all your previous inputs.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

*Re: Re: UPDATE: 325i Good Enough?*



savjam said:


> *Well I test drove the 325i again and decided that its engine performance was sufficiently good enough for an enjoyable driving experience.
> 
> Thanks for all your previous inputs. *


Congrats . . . you definitely made a great choice on cars !!!


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

savjam said:


> Thanks for all your responses. TGRAVO What options did you get?


I don't know how I missed this, and it may be kind of late 

Anyways

I have a 2002 325i 5 speed
Titanium Silver Metallic
Black Leather
Premium Package
Sport Package
Harmon/Kardon
Bi-Xenons


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## hsk73 (Jun 30, 2003)

IMO, there no good excuse other then $$$ issue to choose 325 over 330.


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## Dale Pickle (Apr 22, 2003)

numbersguy said:


> My situation is different in that I can only spring for about 35K. If I had your budget I would go for the 330i 6-speed without hesitation.


If you go ED and negotiate well you can get a 330i 6-speed for that kind of money. My car cost 35K exactly. SP, CWP, Xenons, Moonroof.


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

Dale Pickle said:


> If you go ED and negotiate well you can get a 330i 6-speed for that kind of money. My car cost 35K exactly. SP, CWP, Xenons, Moonroof.


Yep. Negotiate well and the savings of ED covers the difference in price between the 325 and the 330 (depending on the options you wanted on both).

Of course, you pay to get yourself to munich, but if it replaces an existing vacation...


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

tgravo2 said:


> I don't know how I missed this, and it may be kind of late
> 
> Anyways
> 
> ...


Nice Options. Me, I have a Silver Gray 6-Speed 330i SP on order.

savjam


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Phil F said:


> A few thoughts:
> 
> I recently took delivery on a 325xi, 5sp, TiSilver, Nat-Brown, SP, CWP, Bi-Xenons (and a few extra goodies like trip computer, autodimming mirrors).
> 
> ...


Don't get your hopes up too high - make sure you test one first. Despite the power figures (and we all know how misleading they can be), the tests I have read in European magazines of the first S60Rs have been underwhelming. The claimed 0-60 seems specious, especially as one magazine tested an auto version to 60 mph in 7.5 sec. While overtaking performance will be very good, a well-driven 330i will keep up.

While 4x4 is seen as the godsend in the wet, remember that 4x4 only increases traction out of bends if you are after fast times, and a car set up to understeer will continue to understeer - and scrub speed - even if 10 wheels are driving it. It won't help poor handling balance, or iffy wheel control, and it certainly doesn't increase lateral grip, unless 4x4 somehow makes the tyres go all sticky at the appropriate moment.

Why don't we care about the E46's uncompetitive crash performance? Because we're not paranoid about passive safety, we don't read dumb consumer reports when making a car-buying decision (if we did we'd all be driving Accords and Daewoos), we realise that the E46 is getting on a bit and they can't re-engineer the whole car every time some global manufacturer releases a potential competitor, and we also realise that the car has more active safety than practically any other sedan. We also realise that not all crash tests are the same, and that the NHTSA's are just one of many.

Of course I say this because the chances of some doped-up soccer mom T-boning me with her enormous SUV whilst accessorizing are just about zero, because they don't sell 'em here .


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

*Another datapoint...*

Guys - Hi, just wanted to add another perspective to this thread.

I travel a lot to the UK, and this trip that I am on now when I asked for a little larger car than normal for myself and my colleages, the counter lady arranged for me to rent a 318i for my three days.

This is (as far as I can tell) an '03 model year, right hand drive, with steptronic 5 speed, and a 1.8 litre engine. Not clear if it has a SP or not but the steering wheel is a 3-spoker but the seats do not feel particularly sporty. (I am unfamilar with the UK BMW spec.) I drove it around a hundred miles today; I will post up a more detailed report in a few days.

It will be interesting to take what amounts to be an extended multi-day test drive in the car.

Initial impressions are it has a lively ride, excellent steering, and good pick-up even with the 1.8l engine.

More in a few days...rj


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

savjam said:


> Nice Options. Me, I have a Silver Gray 6-Speed 330i SP on order.
> 
> savjam


I wish I had that


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## Phil F (Mar 16, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> Why don't we care about the E46's uncompetitive crash performance? Because.... the chances of some doped-up soccer mom T-boning me with her enormous SUV whilst accessorizing are just about zero, because they don't sell 'em here .


Yeah, drive around any US suburb for awhile and you might think differently!


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

*Thanks*



numbersguy said:


> Natural Brown is darker than Sand. Also it comes with the same interior as black except for the seats and door panels which are covered with the Natural Brown leather.
> 
> What I really wanted was black leatherette, and my wife wanted Sand leatherette. Neither of us would give in so we picked nat brown as a compromise. We both like it a lot but I also like $1450 in my pocket.
> 
> ...


Numbers - hey, thanks very much for the info, and for attaching the pic as well -- I appreciate it.

I had been pretty much set on gray (I guess 'cause current MBZ has a gray interior) but having said that my last two Hondas had an umber and light brown interior respectively, and they were fine. Natural brown, hmmm...will have to discuss with the boss. One of my problems is I am a little colour blind (I can tell between Gray and Brown though) so would probably take advice on what colours look good together.

I agree with you re: the wood frankly I would/will prefer the aluminum trim.

cheers...rich


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

*Right hand Drive 318 Report*

Hi all - Just an update on the right-hand drive 318i been driving the past three days on a trip in the UK.

- Steering and roadholding first class. I am beginning to see the light re: BMW handling/ride. Steering is really impressive, light but direct. Reminds me (in a wierd, but RWD way) of the lightness of steering on my 67 Mini Cooper S. Very confident in maneouvres/lane changes/roundabouts.
- Acceleration, was, um, ok, but the car did make impressive sounds while doing it. Had no problem with keeping up with Motorway traffic. The 4 cyl 1.8L engine felt a little buzzy under the exhaust sound (which was nice.)
- Did NOT like the steptronic (had no choice in rental) I mean really, can't quite see the point (for me) of an autobox. Would really have liked to drive a 5 speed on some English B roads...
- Car had ParkTronic, which was actually very useful in the smaller English parking spots. I might opt for this, not sure if this is bundled in the states or a separate option, will check into this
- On-board computer is useless. I mean, why don't they just equip all the cars to read out the external temp and throw away the rest of the circuitry. $300? Please...
- What's up with the analog "MPG" meter near the speedo? I guess I never noticed that before, but not sure what it is doing on a "Drivers' Car"?
- Ride was NOT as comfortable as the US-spec 325i/stick and 330i Step I had driven in Orlando last week. Wonder if US spec cars get more sound proofing...? 
- Trunk big enough.
- Seats firm but not particularly sporty (think this car was not "sport" equipped as near as I could tell).

Overall, nice car.

Hope this helps.

rich


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## Matthew330Ci (Sep 9, 2002)

numbersguy said:


> Natural Brown is darker than Sand. Also it comes with the same interior as black except for the seats and door panels which are covered with the Natural Brown leather.
> 
> What I really wanted was black leatherette, and my wife wanted Sand leatherette. Neither of us would give in so we picked nat brown as a compromise. We both like it a lot but I also like $1450 in my pocket.
> 
> ...


If you get the leather instead of 'ette, that's $1450 OUT of your pocket, not in your pocket. :dunno:


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## numbersguy (May 21, 2003)

Matthew330CiM said:


> If you get the leather instead of 'ette, that's $1450 OUT of your pocket, not in your pocket. :dunno:


And don't I know it!


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

I have a e36 328 (190hp/206lbs) and the e46 325 seemed just as peppy as my car. So I think there is some truth behind the fact that the numbers don't speak the full story...


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## mmurphy (Jan 30, 2002)

*Don't speak for me*



greginaz1 said:


> I'll say this again, anyone that drives and is even thinking 330 should get it (if you can afford it of course), if you do get the 325 a year or so down the road you will most likely be regretting you didn't get the 330.
> 
> I don't think anyone a year into their purchase says they were happier getting an option over a larger engine.
> 
> My $0.02 from my personal and friend's experiences...


Well, I disagree. I paid 29K cash for my 325i and it's the most balanced car I've ever driven. I've driven several 3.0's and have not been impressed. There is nothing I can't do in my 325i except toss it as much as a lighter car like a miata. So you punks like the 330. Have fun but stop trashing the same damn car for 7K less.


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## hsk73 (Jun 30, 2003)

mmurphy said:


> Well, I disagree. I paid 29K cash for my 325i and it's the most balanced car I've ever driven. I've driven several 3.0's and have not been impressed. There is nothing I can't do in my 325i except toss it as much as a lighter car like a miata. So you punks like the 330. Have fun but stop trashing the same damn car for 7K less.


I admit. I regret not getting 4.4i and I regret not getting 330Ci... 
I understand what you are saying, mmurphy. But, it's not the same damn car, dude. Like you said is was only 7K more... should've just bought 330 then you don't have to argue with these idiots...


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## kdshapiro (May 1, 2003)

"Why don't we care about the E46's uncompetitive crash performance?"

I for one do. Go to crashtest.com and look up the 3 series statistics. Still gets a highly recommended rating. One of the reasons I got the BMW is for it's safety record. My sense is it's a much smaller probably of getting t-boned than getting in a front-rear collision. Also my take on the crash worthiness of a 3 series -- is fairly safe, IMO. I rely on the experiences of others, not magazine and survey companys to steer my car acquisition strategies and have first hand experiences of people who have gotten into severe accidents with their BMWs and walked away.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

wingspan said:


> Hi all - Just an update on the right-hand drive 318i been driving the past three days on a trip in the UK.
> 
> - Steering and roadholding first class. I am beginning to see the light re: BMW handling/ride. Steering is really impressive, light but direct. Reminds me (in a wierd, but RWD way) of the lightness of steering on my 67 Mini Cooper S. Very confident in maneouvres/lane changes/roundabouts.
> - Acceleration, was, um, ok, but the car did make impressive sounds while doing it. Had no problem with keeping up with Motorway traffic. The 4 cyl 1.8L engine felt a little buzzy under the exhaust sound (which was nice.)
> ...


The 4-cyl is a 2.0 litre these days, not 1.8. But it does have fairly modest figures for a 2L engine - 143 bhp, 150 lb-ft torque. The big improvements are in fuel economy and emissions.

I thought people would like the way the 318i handles - the engine is very light, and the whole thing is way behind the front axle line.

The OBC on UK cars is bundled into a package called SE, which combines about £3,500 worth of options (including the £250 for the OBC) into the SE package and costing £1,300. This is nearer the true worth of the options individually. Hardly anyone buys the non-SE version and of those that do, no-one specifies the OBC.

All BMWs, bar the M cars, get the dumb mpg swingometer.

I agree, the Steptronic is a bit frustrating when mated to the 4-cyls. Not because of the power-sapping effect, but because of the weird gearing with a huge gap between 3rd and 4th.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Phil F said:


> Yeah, drive around any US suburb for awhile and you might think differently!


Yes, I'm begininng to understand that...


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> The 4-cyl is a 2.0 litre these days, not 1.8. But it does have fairly modest figures for a 2L engine - 143 bhp, 150 lb-ft torque. The big improvements are in fuel economy and emissions.
> 
> I thought people would like the way the 318i handles - the engine is very light, and the whole thing is way behind the front axle line.
> 
> ...


Andy - Concur -- nice car for UK, wish I had been able to drive it with the stick. Chairs...rich


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## dynosor (Jul 15, 2003)

*Why the 330i is harder to drive.*

I also test drove a 325i and 330i back to back while shopping for a 325i. The 325i has a softer clutch engagement and a slower throttle tip-in. This makes it easier to drive smoothly without much practice.

After driving the 330i I knew this was a worthy replacement for my GTi VR6 - the 325i was OK, but did not have enough punch in 4rth and 5th gear, compared to the GTi.

The 330i feels effortless in its acceleration in any gear at almost any speed, but the throttle is overly sensitive at small openings and the clutch takes very high and too abrubptly. It took me a month to get used to this after I bought the 330i, but now I can drive it smoothly and it does not bother me anymore. I found that proper seat adjustment is key to driving the 330i smoothly.


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

dynosor said:


> I also test drove a 325i and 330i back to back while shopping for a 325i. *The 325i has a softer clutch engagement and a slower throttle tip-in. This makes it easier to drive smoothly without much practice.*
> After driving the 330i I knew this was a worthy replacement for my GTi VR6 - the 325i was OK, but did not have enough punch in 4rth and 5th gear, compared to the GTi.
> 
> The 330i feels effortless in its acceleration in any gear at almost any speed, but the throttle is overly sensitive at small openings and the *clutch takes very high and too abrubptly*. It took me a month to get used to this after I bought the 330i, but now I can drive it smoothly and it does not bother me anymore. *I found that proper seat adjustment is key to driving the 330i smoothly*.


My observations were the same.

Did you test drive the 330i 5 or 6-speed?


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## dynosor (Jul 15, 2003)

5-speed only. That's what I bought - didn't know about the 6 -speed. In retrospect, I like what I have and don't feel the need for more ratios.

If the clutch took lower and a little progressively, then that and the shorter throws of the 6-speed might have made enough of a difference to matter. I am not really interested in finding out, as I am now quite happy with what I have.


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

dynosor said:


> 5-speed only. That's what I bought - didn't know about the 6 -speed. In retrospect, I like what I have and don't feel the need for more ratios.
> 
> If the clutch took lower and a little progressively, then that and the shorter throws of the 6-speed might have made enough of a difference to matter. I am not really interested in finding out, as I am now quite happy with what I have.


Thanks for the reply. I am glad to hear you are now happy with the 5-speed. I too don't think it needed an extra gear but BMW gotta keep up the competition.

savjam


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

savjam said:


> Thanks for the reply. I am glad to hear you are now happy with the 5-speed. I too don't think it needed an extra gear but BMW gotta keep up the competition.
> 
> savjam


Savjam,

I thought you were going to get the 325i. What happened? Seems like you went for the 330.


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> Savjam,
> 
> I thought you were going to get the 325i. What happened? Seems like you went for the 330.


Hi Xspeedy. Yes, I went with the 330i. Why, because I couldn't get the "extra balls" of the 330 engine out of my mind. If I had not test driven the 330i, I would have been happy with the 325i. What I may miss on the 325i is the ultra smooth clutch and shifter and those awesome style 96 wheels which I prefer to the 68M. However, I am more than confident that with time and practice, I will master the clutch on the 330i. My car, a silver gray 'w' SP, is due next week. I can't wait to get it.

savjam


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

And what about $1440 for leather over 'ette? How is the 'ette anyway? Isn't it just vinyl???? Does it wear out quick and look bad? Anyone have it? Can anyone fill me in? :dunno:


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## drmwvr (Feb 21, 2003)

Motown328 said:


> And what about $1440 for leather over 'ette? How is the 'ette anyway? Isn't it just vinyl???? Does it wear out quick and look bad? Anyone have it? Can anyone fill me in? :dunno:


For what it is worth, I had 'ette in my '97 Audi A4 that I traded in for my 325. When I traded my A4 in, it looked as good as the day I bought the car. In addition, for the 6 years that I owned my A4, everyone thought that it was leather. Because of this, and the fact that I have two children, I opted for 'ette again for my 325. In my opinion, I would not spend the extra $ on leather. :angel:


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## steve (Jan 7, 2002)

Motown328 said:


> And what about $1440 for leather over 'ette? How is the 'ette anyway? Isn't it just vinyl???? Does it wear out quick and look bad? Anyone have it? Can anyone fill me in? :dunno:


'ette generally looks better than leather after a few years. I've got an 'ette car, and after 77,000km and 2.5 years, the seats look brand new -- save for a bit of wear on the bolster where I get in.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

steve said:


> 'ette generally looks better than leather after a few years. I've got an 'ette car, and after 77,000km and 2.5 years, the seats look brand new -- save for a bit of wear on the bolster where I get in.


Just to add a few more notes to this.

Tonight I test drove a stripper 325i CPO w/ 22k in 'ette. When I compared it against interior condition of the CPO 328s etc with leather the 'ette cars interiors were much fresher and newer looking...kind of argues for saving the money unless sitting on cow skins is a requirement...


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

savjam said:


> Hi Xspeedy. Yes, I went with the 330i. Why, because I couldn't get the "extra balls" of the 330 engine out of my mind. If I had not test driven the 330i, I would have been happy with the 325i. What I may miss on the 325i is the ultra smooth clutch and shifter and those awesome style 96 wheels which I prefer to the 68M. However, I am more than confident that with time and practice, I will master the clutch on the 330i. My car, a silver gray 'w' SP, is due next week. I can't wait to get it.
> 
> savjam


Savjam/Xspeedy - Just to keep you guys in the loop, I did a back to back comparison drive tonight between a "stripper" 325 (see above) and a 330 ZHP.

325 was an 02, 5 speed, no SP, white with sand 'ette with about 20K miles. Car felt very tight, nicely planted, very comfortable. I was able to drive a short loop involving Interstate, offramp, and 2 miles or so of 40-50 single lane roads. Nice ride, I liked the balance of the 5 speed gearbox combined with the 2.5l engine.

330 was an 04 with 8 miles, Grey with black. Immediately noticed the Alcantara interior and short shifter. Also felt ride was much more skittish (not sure how else to describe) on the 18 rims plus the suspension. Much throatier growl in engine. Obviously more power despite being limited to <4.5K RPM due to mileage on car.

At the end of the test drive I basically concluded that, for my day to day driving situation, a 325 is probably more than adequate, and I would get 95% of the "fun to drive" factor satisfied with it vs. a 330. So, given the cost difference of whatever you want to estimate (6-10K or whatever) it looks like I'll be going for a 325. I told The Boss that I felt that I was just not in the right age group for a 330 ZHP anymore 

Anyway, appreciate everybodies comments on this thread, its been very helpful to read and (sometimes) contribute to this forum...

rich


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## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

The biggest difference to me between the 325 and the 330 (I had an auto 325, manual 323 and manual 330) is the difference in engine power with the AC on...so if you live in an area where you will use AC a good part of the year realize the 325 is going to be pretty darn pokey...though when cooler weather hits it was always nice to get the HP's back!

My ZHP 330 really masks the AC well, the difference in power appears to be negligible.

Just another thought to consider...


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

wingspan said:


> Savjam/Xspeedy - ....... At the end of the test drive I basically concluded that, for my day to day driving situation, a 325 is probably more than adequate, and I would get 95% of the "fun to drive" factor satisfied with it vs. a 330. .......
> rich


Rich, agreed and excellent choice. The goodness of a 3 series is not all about power, it is the rock solid platform, the superb steering, the outstanding handling, the smooth inline six, the excellent shifter and ergonomics, and the beautiful styling.

In terms of options, the Sport Package is all you really need plus the color of your choice if its important to you (I got silver gray which is awesome). Now that I have had my car for three weeks, I must say I really like the Harmon Kardon stereo and the trip computer. IMO, as an owner of a very good hifi system, I think the HK system is a very decent effort. However, the radio quality is not very good. The power seats are a waste and would have deleted it if I could. The standard halogens are excellent and I don't miss getting BiXenons. The only other option I would have gotten is a moonroof which IMO fits the personality of the car.

I need two remotes, one the the community gate and and my garage. Since I hate carrying around two remotes, I will either a. purchase the BMW 3-channel universal garage door opener (UGDO) or b. a two channel single remote. I listen to more CDs than radio, so I may purchase the 6-CD changer also. Why? I had a couple of near misses on the Turnpike because of fiddling with changing CDs.

So far, after 1100 miles, the car has been perfect with no problems. After I purchased the car, I heard a rattling noise after turning off the engine that disappeared if I pressed the clutch before turning off the ignition.I took it to the dealer, and, it turns out this is normal for manual transmissions cars because BMW uses a dual mass flywheel. They convinced me this was normal with a new car off the lot which did the same thing.

While cleaning the car, I noticed a loose wire that was not connected to anything. I scheduled a service visit for them to check it out since I could not figure out where it goes. Could be one of "prewired options" but I want to be sure. At the same time I will use the opportunity to get them to program DRL "daytime running lights" and the clown nose to blink whenever locking or unlocking the doors.

I am really enjoying the car and can't wait till the break in is over. During the breakin I have been really "babying" the car. However, the car feels best with aggressive driving.

Good luck.

savjam


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

savjam said:


> Rich, agreed and excellent choice. The goodness of a 3 series is not all about power, it is the rock solid platform, the superb steering, the outstanding handling, the smooth inline six, the excellent shifter and ergonomics, and the beautiful styling.
> 
> In terms of options, the Sport Package is all you really need


 :thumbup: Totally agree. I got the 330 and I love it, but I'm convinced the 325 (manual w/sp) would have been fine as well.

Savjam, the only point I differ on is that I love the power seats because everything goes right back where I want it after my wife drives the car. I'm already traumatized enought that she's driving it  so it would be even worse to have to manually re-discover all of the settings for the 12-way seats.


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## savjam (May 12, 2003)

rumatt said:


> :thumbup: ....Savjam the only point I differ on is that I love the power seats because everything goes right back where I want it after my wife drives the car. I'm already traumatized enought that she's driving it  so it would be even worse to have to manually re-discover all of the settings for the 12-way seats.


RUMATT, I agree with your point. However, I am the only one that drives my car so this feature in not important to me.

How is your car doing? I have been following your progress with your intial impressions, the exterior detail, the clutch stop and the mudflaps. This weekend I will be putting on the Klasse AIO and the SG on both the paint and the clearcoat on the wheels. Also, I may try the clutch stop. However, my shifts are getting better (perfect above 3000 rpm) with time, so there is no real hurry.

From a detailing perspective, I purchased the Klasse products, the P21S wheel cleaner (contains no acid) , and the Blackfire interior cleaner since this is a general allaround interior cleaner.

savjam


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

savjam said:


> How is your car doing? ... This weekend I will be putting on the Klasse AIO and the SG on both the paint and the clearcoat on the wheels. Also, I may try the clutch stop.


My car is doing great. I haven't added anything else lately. Good luck with the AIO and the SG. When you're done you should add your experiences to the SG tips thread. There was some different takes on exactly how hard the SG is to get off.

Regarding the clutch stop, I highly recommend just starting by finding the bolt at the hardware store and start with that. It takes 10 seconds to install, and you'll know instantly whether you like it better.

My 1-2 shift is still shaky, but I'd say it's smooth 50% of the time. (this is while driving aggressively.. when driving slow it's easy).

Good luck getting through breakin! I was just about to start a thread about how I find myself driving like a maniac now. :eeps:


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Ironically, I found the stripper 325i to be the most fun to drive. When I say stripper, I mean no SP. The tires didn't offer huge grip, and so with the DSC off, I could really slide the rear around entrance ramps. It was a blast. It is harder to do that with the 330i SP because of the staggered setup of the wheels and the extra sticky rubber.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

savjam said:


> ... I had a couple of near misses on the Turnpike because of fiddling with changing CDs.


 :yikes: :tsk: :thumbdwn:


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## lsedels (Jul 12, 2003)

greginaz1 said:


> The biggest difference to me between the 325 and the 330 (I had an auto 325, manual 323 and manual 330) is the difference in engine power with the AC on...so if you live in an area where you will use AC a good part of the year realize the 325 is going to be pretty darn pokey...though when cooler weather hits it was always nice to get the HP's back!
> 
> My ZHP 330 really masks the AC well, the difference in power appears to be negligible.
> 
> Just another thought to consider...


I agree with you. I drove both the 325 and the 330. The only noticeable difference was going uphill with the A/C on. I drove this route several times. There really was not a significant difference without the A/C ... and even with the A/C it was slight. Don't forget, you're only talking about another 41hp which is 22%.


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## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

lsedels said:


> I agree with you. I drove both the 325 and the 330. The only noticeable difference was going uphill with the A/C on. I drove this route several times. There really was not a significant difference without the A/C ... and even with the A/C it was slight. Don't forget, you're only talking about another 41hp which is 22%.


Well, +51HP with the ZHP ...the torque difference (222 vs. 175) is really what I notice...the 330 (whatever version) pegs the butt meter in launches at lower gears whereas the 323/5 needs a bit of time to get rolling so to say.


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## AndDown (Jun 17, 2003)

Savjam, I found the clutch engagement to be much smoother after about 1500 miles :thumbup: I have 2200 miles on mine and the  gets bigger every day!


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## LouT (Jun 11, 2003)

greginaz1 said:


> The biggest difference to me between the 325 and the 330 (I had an auto 325, manual 323 and manual 330) is the difference in engine power with the AC on...so if you live in an area where you will use AC a good part of the year realize the 325 is going to be pretty darn pokey...though when cooler weather hits it was always nice to get the HP's back!
> 
> My ZHP 330 really masks the AC well, the difference in power appears to be negligible.
> 
> Just another thought to consider...


The A/C on my 325i 5sp SP has never seemed to draw off much power. Nor does it seem to cause much decrease in MPG. On our vacation in Nevada, I ran the A/C a lot, drove 80-120 a lot and got steady 28 mpg or higher with no trouble on hills or passing fully loaded with wife and camping equipment. My last BMW was an E36 318i so the 325's torque is awesome by comparison. The A/C is most noticeable when it's first turned on, at idle - it draws the engine RPMs down for a moment before the engine mgt can catch up. Like my 325i but am anxious for the ZHP...it's being built this week!!


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## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

LouT said:


> The A/C on my 325i 5sp SP has never seemed to draw off much power. Nor does it seem to cause much decrease in MPG. On our vacation in Nevada, I ran the A/C a lot, drove 80-120 a lot and got steady 28 mpg or higher with no trouble on hills or passing fully loaded with wife and camping equipment. My last BMW was an E36 318i so the 325's torque is awesome by comparison. The A/C is most noticeable when it's first turned on, at idle - it draws the engine RPMs down for a moment before the engine mgt can catch up. Like my 325i but am anxious for the ZHP...it's being built this week!!


Let's just say you don't notice the AC effect now because you have only driven the 325...wait until you try the ZHP out.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Well, this kind of stinks

Went to the dealership with The Boss today "just to look at colors" and try and decide whether the Sand interior in 'ette would look good with SB exterior (we decided it didn't).

Well, to make long story short, dealer had an '03 ZHP in Silver Gray, black leather, light aluminum cube interior, Xenons, moonroof sitting there. We took a short test drive. She likes the ride. She likes the interior. AND THEN SHE SAYS WHY DON'T YOU THINK ABOUT MAKING AN OFFER ON THIS CAR!!! YOU WANT IT DON'T YOU...? (Well, yes, I do)

ARRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Sorry, just got a little excited there. So now I have to decide whether to "put up or shut up"...decisions, decisions...

rich


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## numbersguy (May 21, 2003)

Are you asking for help in deciding?

OK here goes: Don't buy it. It's too fast, too good-looking, too much fun and way too cool for you!

Did that help?


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

numbersguy said:


> Are you asking for help in deciding?
> 
> OK here goes: Don't buy it. It's too fast, too good-looking, too much fun and way too cool for you!
> 
> Did that help?


Well, thanks numbers you're a lot of help

Yeah, I guess I am. Or maybe not. Really, I am trying not to get emotionally involved in this thing, but its pretty hard not too...I mean, otherwise I'd be driving an Impala (no offence to Impala drivers.)

Its hard because this car IS WAY TOO COOL! I mean really, the acceleration, the snap, the handling, the brakes, the sound (yeah, that sound) was just, well, intoxicating I guess. AND the black leather interior with the way cool Alcantara steering wheel and light aluminium "cube" trim seemed to appeal to The Boss' sense of design...Of course it was not fair, since we had just come in from the test drive of the 325 5 speed in sand interior (yawn.)

Hmmmm, I think maybe Monday or Tuesday will give him a call and just see if its still there...not sure if they discount these things but maybe, just maybe since its the end of the model year...?

rj


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## joshr (Aug 28, 2003)

rule #1. if the boss OKs it, get it.

rule #2. you don't need a second rule.

period.



wingspan said:


> Well, this kind of stinks
> 
> Went to the dealership with The Boss today "just to look at colors" and try and decide whether the Sand interior in 'ette would look good with SB exterior (we decided it didn't).
> 
> ...


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

joshr said:


> rule #1. if the boss OKs it, get it.
> 
> rule #2. you don't need a second rule.


 :rofl:

Seriously, if it has all the options you want, consider getting it. The wait of special ordering one is death. However, if it has loads of options that you don't want, they can cost you quite a bit of money unnecessarily.

Also, make sure you really want the ZHP. Many people absolutely love it, but I'm more than happy with my non-zhp 330i. My exhaust is quiter, the ride is less harsh, the tires are cheaper, and it cost a lot less. I'm not trying to be negative about the ZHP.. just making the point that it's not without tradeoffs. Make sure you want them.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

rumatt said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Seriously, if it has all the options you want, consider getting it. The wait of special ordering one is death. However, if it has loads of options that you don't want, they can cost you quite a bit of money unnecessarily.
> 
> Also, make sure you really want the ZHP. Many people absolutely love it, but I'm more than happy with my non-zhp 330i. My exhaust is quiter, the ride is less harsh, the tires are cheaper, and it cost a lot less. I'm not trying to be negative about the ZHP.. just making the point that it's not without tradeoffs. Make sure you want them.


Yes, this has been on my mind. Still, the test drive yesterday was not bad at all (firmness wise). I could appreciate it after a few thousand miles it might not be everyone's cup of tea. But with my Mini being pretty firm (hydrolastic with ST bump stops, for the Mini-cogniscenti) anyways, I didn't find the ZHP objectionable.

Ok, that does it. I am going to call first thing tomorrow and, if its still there, I'll go down and see what kind of money they want for it....

By the way rumatt I will have to find a way to post a picture of a rumratt I have somewheres...

rich


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

wingspan said:


> By the way rumatt I will have to find a way to post a picture of a rumratt I have somewheres...


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

*ZHP Suspension Breaks In*

I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but the ZHP suspension picks up a little suppleness as it breaks in. Mines still getting more fluid at 5000mi


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

*Got it...*

Guys - Well, I worked out an acceptable deal for the 330i ZHP in Silver Gray/Black - been driving it ever since so too busy to make a post here till tonight...Will post more pictures and reports soon! I really like it a lot, yes there are tradeoffs with ZHP but only slight negative (exhaust drone at 2k) is more than made up for by driving enjoyment...will wait for break in period to be over to open it up...rj


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