# NEW E60 The Art of MORE!!!WOW!!!



## BMWs4U (Aug 26, 2003)

"In short, the E39 said a lot...but the all-new revolutionary E60 says MORE!!!"

I just got back from the Firebird race track in Arizona. We tested the new 530i with and without sport. TRUST me get the sport no matter what you do. The Active Steering is phenominal to say the least. The new iDrive is clean and in all very user friendly. Leg room and trunk space greatly improved. These vehicles will be very easy to sell. Active Roll Stabilization, what body roll? :rofl: The vehicles that we compared with, well, let's just say they didn't!!! :thumbup:

MB E320 :eeps: 
Lexus GS 300 :tsk: 
Jaguar S-Type 3.0 :bawling:

T2, your BMW Client Advisor.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Sounds cool Titu...


Got pics???




P.S. Which dealership are you a CA at??


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## BMWs4U (Aug 26, 2003)

Jon Shafer said:


> Sounds cool Titu...
> 
> Got pics???
> 
> ...


  Nick Alexander Imports, wholesale district of LA.
You can reach me 24/7 at 562-310-BMWS(2697)

I did not take any pictures, but you can go to www.bmw545.com for more information and pictures.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

BMWs4U said:


> Nick Alexander Imports, wholesale district of LA.
> You can reach me 24/7 at 562-310-BMWS(2697)
> 
> I did not take any pictures, but you can go to www.bmw545.com for more information and pictures.


Do you not know who The Honorable Jon Shafer is? :rofl: :rofl:


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## BMWs4U (Aug 26, 2003)

SARAFIL said:


> Do you not know who The Honorable Jon Shafer is? :rofl: :rofl:


 :jawdrop: I am new to Bimmerfest, and I honestly did not know. uch: 
I was trying to find a smiley face to express how stupid I must look, but there is not one. This one will have to do. :doh:

T2 :loco:


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## Saintor (Dec 14, 2002)

Would have been great to include Acura 2004 TL 275hp 33000$ with the same level of performance as the 545 and supposedly benchmarked with the E39. I truly hate the new E60, this new uglymobile. Did you just look at those door panels? :thumbdwn: Too bad, the E39 was almost a consensus.  BMW should have done a bit less "Art"!


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

Just got back from Phoenix myself and I have to agree whole-heartedly. What an awesome vehicle, awesome training and a great show. I was at first disappointed that there wasn't a 545 in attendance, but after a couple of laps in the 530, I saw that it is PLENTY of car. Especially when compared to the competition. The Mercedes was closest, but had throttle lag unlike anything I'd ever experienced in what is marketed as a sports sedan. The GS was porky and plush...and will be bought by people who have vastly different priorities in life than mine. As for the Jag...I weep for the Jag faithful. This poor car was simply outclassed. Too much engine noise, no room in the trunk or the backseat, a bunch of switchgear stolen out of the Ford parts bin, and styling that once was the height of fashion...but with each passing day resembles a Taurus more and more. I don't know if the Acura would have been a fair comparison, but I think it was a mistake not to include an Audi A6 in the mix. 

The sport package is a must if you get an E60. Active Steering is so awesome it should be made standard up and down the line.

Overall, I'm so fired up about the E60...I seriously think the biggest problem I'll have is not coming off as arrogant when a client tells me they're considering the Benz...or anything else for that matter!


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## Guest2075 (Aug 19, 2002)

*waiting*

I think I'll wait for the opinion of some one who's livelihood doesn't rely on selling BMWs...not to mention checking one out myself 

Doug


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

DougP said:


> I think I'll wait for the opinion of some one who's livelihood doesn't rely on selling BMWs...not to mention checking one out myself
> 
> Doug


And when you do, remember you heard it here first.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> Do you not know who The Honorable Jon Shafer is? :rofl: :rofl:


:lmao: :lmao:


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

BMWs4U said:


> "In short, the E39 said a lot...but the all-new revolutionary E60 says MORE!!!"
> 
> I just got back from the Firebird race track in Arizona. We tested the new 530i with and without sport. TRUST me get the sport no matter what you do. The Active Steering is phenominal to say the least. The new iDrive is clean and in all very user friendly. Leg room and trunk space greatly improved. These vehicles will be very easy to sell. Active Roll Stabilization, what body roll? :rofl: The vehicles that we compared with, well, let's just say they didn't!!! :thumbup:
> 
> ...


More? More! The new E60 - featuring BMW's patented Univers-A-Dash interior mouldings allowing cheap production of LHD and RHD - incorporates BMW's modern corporate brand values, quietly dumps all that profit-endangering rubbish about build quality, and allows BMW stakeholders to get more money.

Great.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2003)

The E60 is the single biggest gift to Mercedes ever.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

TD said:


> The E60 is the single biggest gift to Mercedes ever.


 :bustingup

TD, you really are too much!


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

TD said:


> The E60 is the single biggest gift to Mercedes ever.


Amen. Sad, really. I know people here will point to its performance. But the vast majority just wants a nice luxury car with status.

When you get a chance take a look at an E-class in and out and compare it to the E60. It's not even a contest. The masses will flock to the E-class. They have been already, and once the E60 shows up in showrooms it will be worse.

The car better handle like an F1 race car so hardcore BMW enthusiasts can keep it afloat. Every non-performance oriented person I have asked has said the new 5 looks "ugly." In contrast, the E-class is "beautiful" or "gorgeous."

What a shame. I hope I am VERY wrong.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2003)

SARAFIL said:


> :bustingup
> 
> TD, you really are too much!


 And you are not objective.

This thing does not have the style or dignity to compete against the E-class. Remember, by the time you get up to 5-series/E-class territory, driving dynamics start to matter less to the typical buyer than style and image.

And this thing has less style than your average Kia.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2003)

mbr129 said:


> Amen. Sad, really. I know people here will point to its performance. But the vast majority just wants a nice luxury car with status.
> 
> When you get a chance take a look at an E-class in and out and compare it to the E60. It's not even a contest. The masses will flock to the E-class. They have been already, and once the E60 shows up in showrooms it will be worse.
> 
> ...


 I think the E-class is gorgeous too. It makes me angry that BMW is being this stupid.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

TD said:


> I think the E-class is gorgeous too. It makes me angry that BMW is being this stupid.


As you know, my wife and I will be in the market for a mid-size luxury wagon in 2-3 years, and the E60 is out already because it is just too ugly for the both of us. I have tried to "convince her" but she says "no way, the Mercedes is awesome." And since it wont be used for performance reasons and it will be HER car, that is that.

One customer lost. Just when I had fallen in love with BMW.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

I always thought TD prefered feel to image, but I guess that I was wrong :dunno:


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> And this thing has less style than your average Kia.


or Fiat Multipla. :rofl:

mbr129--I've also tried to find people outside this board who think the e60 looks good. I showed some pictures to my non-car oriented girlfriend who usually just shrugs indifferently at most cars, and she immediately scowled. When I showed her the interior, she scowled even more. Her first reaction was that it looks like an old persons car. I also showed it to my parents who thought it looked bad too. My father said "why are the headlights like that?". I didn't state my own opinion before showing them the pictures, btw. This car certainly is the best gift to Mercedes ever. In this segment, how it looks matters a lot more than how it performance and how many gadgets you can control w/ a spinning knob.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Screw Chris Bangle and screw BMW. The interior design of new BMWs is butt-ass nasty, and looks like total crap. The E60 is no exception. I'm as much in favor of driving dynamics over looks as the next guy, but the new BMWs are such a giant step backward that its impossible to ignore. 

After the E46, I'm done with BMW. I've frigging had it. I'm tired of bending over and being expected to take their hideous styling and godawful interiors because of their disintegrating brand equity. I don't care how well a car drives; if it's so damn ugly that I can't stand looking at either the inside or the outside, I'm not putting down the long green on it.

There is such a profusion of new possibilities in the market today that finding an alternative won't be difficult. I hope that they put a stick in the new M45 replacement, which is supposed to be pretty badass. If not, I'll buy a Cadillac.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

JST said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. Screw Chris Bangle and screw BMW. The interior design of new BMWs is butt-ass nasty, and looks like total crap. The E60 is no exception. I'm as much in favor of driving dynamics over looks as the next guy, but the new BMWs are such a giant step backward that its impossible to ignore.
> 
> After the E46, I'm done with BMW. I've frigging had it. I'm tired of bending over and being expected to take their hideous styling and godawful interiors because of their disintegrating brand equity. I don't care how well a car drives; if it's so damn ugly that I can't stand looking at either the inside or the outside, I'm not putting down the long green on it.


I agree.

More and more I just don't see myself selling my 330i. It is just awesome. The new BMW's are hideous, and we all know no one builds sport sedans like BMW so there are (currently) no other options that will pry me from my ZHP 330i. I also want to keep invasive technologies down to a minimum on my sporty cars and BMW seems to be going against that philosphy. That is why the Elise is so great.

I also found out that one can extend the factory warranty on the E-class to 7 years 100K for $2K. Given today's gadget-packed luxury cars, a couple of things go wrong during miles 50K to 100K and it pays for itself. IIRC, BMW does not offer a factory extension on their warranties unless it is a used car.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> More? More! The new E60 - featuring BMW's patented Univers-A-Dash interior mouldings allowing cheap production of LHD and RHD - incorporates BMW's modern corporate brand values, quietly dumps all that profit-endangering rubbish about build quality, and allows BMW stakeholders to get more money.
> 
> Great.


The dash design does allow for more flexiblity in production for other markets. In and of itself, this is not a bad thing. In the half dozen e60s I've been in, I've detected no loss in quality for the materials or the fit and finish.

IMO, the "two sweeps" dash design is just one example of BMW's innovative thinking. It not only produces a clean, uncluttered surface but also saves on production costs. The latter may be the difference between survival and demise in a very competitive marketplace.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2003)

philippek said:


> The dash design does allow for more flexiblity in production for other markets. In and of itself, this is not a bad thing. In the half dozen e60s I've been in, I've detected no loss in quality for the materials or the fit and finish.
> 
> IMO, the "two sweeps" dash design is just one example of BMW's innovative thinking. It not only produces a clean, uncluttered surface but also saves on production costs. The latter may be the difference between survival and demise in a very competitive marketplace.


:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

:jack:

:stickpoke


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

I think the E60 is a handsome looking car, and the Z4 is downright sexy.


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

TD said:


> :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
> 
> :jack:
> 
> :stickpoke


Now that was mature.


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

Plaz said:


> I think the E60 is a handsome looking car.


Thank you.

At least there's one other member with an open mind.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2003)

Scorp76 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> At least there's one other member with an open mind.


 Liking something hideously ugly = having an open mind?


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

TD said:


> Liking something hideously ugly = having an open mind?


No, but NOT appreciating and/or understanding that people have different likes/dislikes when it comes to the appearance of a vehicle = having a closed mind.


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

Good job Ryan. :thumbup:


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Ryan330i said:


> No, but NOT appreciating and/or understanding that people have different likes/dislikes when it comes to the appearance of a vehicle = having a closed mind.


I understand that, and I bet TD does, too.

Doesn't make me like the Bangled styling trend any more. When I make comments on aesthetics, I speak for no one but myself.

Seems like a lot of people agree with me, though, which is good. Maybe that will make Panke et al. put an end to the madness.


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## FrenchBoy (Apr 16, 2002)

Plaz said:


> I think the E60 is a handsome looking car, and the Z4 is downright sexy.


I second that. And that's from someone who actually drove a new 530i a couple of months back.

See http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33587

Can't wait to see E60s on the roads around Boston. They have great presence and will stand out from the crowd for quite a while, whether you like them or not. The E-Class on the other hand already blends in the landscape. I barely notice them anymore.

FrenchBoy


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

TD said:


> Liking something hideously ugly = having an open mind?


More like appreciating change.....giving something new a chance......not :nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:ing NON-STOP about something as subjective as styling.

All that to me=having an open mind.


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## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

Maybe it will grow on me like the 7 has but take the badges off and show me the new 5er and I would have guessed 04 Grand Prix.

:thumbdwn: for now anyways...


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

greginaz1 said:


> Maybe it will grow on me like the 7 has but take the badges off and show me the new 5er and I would have guessed 04 Grand Prix.
> 
> :thumbdwn: for now anyways...


That's the thing. See, to me, the car is ugly. Now, I understand that to others it may not be that bad. But I feel a lot of people are more inclined to see it as better than it is because it is a "BMW 5-Series." If Kia came up with the same design and called it the Kia Lynx or something like that, more people would find it less appealing.

To me it is the inverse. After the beautiful E39, this design is a kick in the teeth, as far as I am concerned. How could one possibly consider the E60 anything but a serious downgrade in stylistic design is beyond me.

But hey, "Sobre gustos y colores, no han escrito los autores."


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## Saintor (Dec 14, 2002)

...if you don't mind riding in a car that 50%+ of the population will find ugly. :dunno:


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

I just got back from our Ride and Drive for the new 5...and that car rocks!!!!

We got to drive it against the Jaguar S type ( : puke: ) , the MBZ E 320, and the Lexus GS 300. Hands down, this car left them in the dust.

The technology in this car is light years away ahead of our competitors. Active steering, Active Roll Stabilization, Adaptive xenons, and more and more.. even the simplified "I-drive for dummies." This car drives on rails. It was sublime. It exceeded my expectations.

I'm glad I had an open mind going into this training. I recognize that the E 320 is a formidable competitor. It's a damn nice car. It's certainly posh and luxurious. But it ain't sporty enough. Surely that isn't there emphasis. We drove a sport package 530i against a sport E320 and I just went limp when I saw "SPORT" on the shift lever of the E. That's gotta be the cheesiest thing I've seen in a Mercedes. Even the side trim says "sport." They must really be trying hard to convince somebody that this car's got some sport dna. Well, it didn't...and it drove like it certainly wasn't born with it.

Objectively, I like the way this car looks...it certainly has presence. I think the Benz looks... well, it's a little "girly" in my opinion. With all the subtle chrome trim on the exterior and the interior and the lines and shapes of the interior, I felt like I was driving a Prada bag or something. And the console with all the buttons for the radio and all that...damn, I thought I was in a jet fighter cockpit rather than a car. One thing that surprised me was how disappointed I was when I found out that the E 320 was sluggish off the line despite it's higher torque and that this engine is single over head cam... not much high tech there.

Personally, I don't give a rats @ss if some folks don't like the way the new 5 looks. Get over it. Get used to it. And if that don't work, keep cryin'. Tough shiskies. The new 5's a done deal. If someone doesn't like it...then keep your old ride until the wheels fall off and there's another change in design. Or *settle* for something else. And that's too bad, because there'll be some folks out there who won't know what they'er missing.

To me, the Benz is like a gorgeous "blonde" with lacking brains whereas the Bimmer is a bespectled, sexy, suave brunette with intellect and mojo to boot.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Saintor said:


> ...if you don't mind riding in a car that 50%+ of the population will find ugly. :dunno:


Did you take some survey or something? How do you figure 50%+? :dunno:

The sales figures will only tell...and if it's any indication being on the front line- I've rarely had a customer who didn't like the way it looked.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2003)

adrian's bmw said:


> Did you take some survey or something? How do you figure 50%+? :dunno:
> 
> The sales figures will only tell...and if it's any indication being on the front line- I've rarely had a customer who didn't like the way it looked.


 Just like sales figures for the E65 tell the story.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

adrian's bmw said:


> ...
> 
> To me, the Benz is like a gorgeous "blonde" with lacking brains whereas the Bimmer is a bespectled, sexy, suave brunette with intellect and mojo to boot.


Nobody is arguing the superior dynamics of the E60. About the "sport" Benz, that just means somebody paid money for cosmetic changes. Mercedes never has claimed any performance improvements. It's called marketing. So being dissapointed about it saying "sport" is just being naive.

You may think that the E39 and E46 success to persuade the masses to buy them is based solely on the performance, but the reality is that a LOT has to do with image. BMW grew sales in the last few years on the allure of their perennial performance superiority over Mercedes COMBINED with their much improved exteriors and interiors which started to appeal to more and more people. To me, the gap in style between the two is greater now than it was in the 80's.

The bigger the vehicle the less performance "matters." Think of how many luxury sedan/wagon owners have gone to SUV's. It is mostly about style when it comes down to luxury vehicles. People don't go from an E-class or 5er to an SUV for the performance. BMW will still sell E60's. Performance nuts, BMW loyalists, and people who want to have the first one in the block will still buy them. Girly, soft, and non-sport as it may be, the Mercedes says "MERCEDES." And that is all Mercedes wants. Their customers appreciate Keyless-go, panorama roofs, and 4-zone climate controls more than superior dynamics.

I am not rooting for anybody. I don't care. To me this stuff is just obvious.


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## Lomag (Jul 17, 2003)

I have the solution! You keep your 3 series until it breaks down and in the meantime those of us who like the E60 will buy one and enjoy it.

I believe the E65 is outselling the E38, and the E60 will outsell the E39 just the same. More and more people are moving up to buying luxury car brands. With more people in the market, sales can only increase.

This arguement can go on endlessly. Why bother? :dunno:


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Lomag said:


> Ok. So you keep you're 3 series until it breaks down. In the meantime those of us who like the E60 will buy one and enjoy it.
> 
> This arguement can go on endlessly. Why bother? :dunno:


That is my whole point. That those who like it will buy it and those who don't wont.

What makes me laugh is that people who like the E60 keep bringing up how much better it performs vs. the competition. What's new? This has been the case for decades.

What I am estimating based on my (not so small) sample of people is that the car is much less attractive than the competition and since style is a big factor, sales will suffer.

I am positive those who don't mind the styling will have a blast with it.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and there is no reason why my 330i can't keep me happy for 10+ years, since my old beat-up Benz makes me happy and it is 14 years old and it is not "broken down." Hopefully by then Bangle will be out of there.


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

TD said:


> The E60 is the single biggest gift to Mercedes ever.


 :bustingup :rofl:


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## Saintor (Dec 14, 2002)

> Get used to it.


I can't. Just like I could not stand not the Golf II back in 1985. This is when I start buying Mazda instead of VW. The best way to prevent another ugly design as this one in the future is to have a sales fiasco.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

TD said:


> Just like sales figures for the E65 tell the story.


and the MBZ S Class, Jaguar XJ Series, Infinity Q45, Lexus LS 430, and Audi A8....


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

adrian's bmw said:


> Personally, I don't give a rats @ss if some folks don't like the way the new 5 looks. Get over it. Get used to it. And if that don't work, keep cryin'. Tough shiskies. The new 5's a done deal. If someone doesn't like it...then keep your old ride until the wheels fall off and there's another change in design. Or *settle* for something else. And that's too bad, because there'll be some folks out there who won't know what they'er missing.


Well said. :thumbup:



adrian's bmw said:


> To me, the Benz is like a gorgeous "blonde" with lacking brains whereas the Bimmer is a bespectled, sexy, suave brunette with intellect and mojo to boot.


Word. I guess a good way to look at is E-class=Britney Spears (famous off hype only; not really good at anything) and 5-series=Christina Aguilera (infinitely more talented but looks don't appeal to everyone). :rofl:


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

adrian's bmw said:


> and the MBZ S Class, Jaguar XJ Series, Infinity Q45, Lexus LS 430, and Audi A8....


It's funny you mention the Q45. I was just looking at their site earlier and noticed that Infiniti has only sold 1632 Q's as of this month. That's pretty sad.

At this rate, I wonder if there'll be a new generation.


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## zhangqj (Apr 6, 2003)

Scorp76 said:


> Well said. :thumbup:
> 
> Word. I guess a good way to look at is E-class=Britney Spears (famous off hype only; not really good at anything) and 5-series=Christina Aguilera (infinitely more talented but looks don't appeal to everyone). :rofl:


How much is the label MERCEDES worth? Is it worth more than the label BMW? How much more is the name HARVARD worth than for example Duke or Rice?

Most people on this board perfer BMW over MB. But can't say that about general public.


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

zhangqj said:


> Most people on this board perfer BMW over MB. But can't say that about general public.


That's because the general public is stupid and full of badge hoes.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

adrian's bmw said:


> Personally, I don't give a rats @ss if some folks don't like the way the new 5 looks. Get over it. Get used to it. And if that don't work, keep cryin'. Tough shiskies. The new 5's a done deal. If someone doesn't like it...then keep your old ride until the wheels fall off and there's another change in design. Or *settle* for something else. And that's too bad, because there'll be some folks out there who won't know what they'er missing.
> 
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Lomag (Jul 17, 2003)

I think BMW could careless what people on an internet message board think. As long as the cars are selling well enough in their book, then that's the end of it.

In the end it all comes down to business. The cars could be butt ugly to you but if they sell, so be it. Just like the new Cadillac's to me. I think they're ugly but apparently many others like them enough to buy them.

Its a fact that most the negativity comes from people who haven't seen the car in the flesh yet, especially E39 owners. It's a psychological occurance. The car you've worked so hard to buy is now being replaced and some people hate to see that happen. Doesn't bother me though!

Remember, what floats someone elses boat may not float yours and vice versa.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

I would think these numbers tell the story about how the general public feels about Bangled BMWs compared w/ their competitors:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/bmw/7series/100192656/incentives.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.newvdpheadertools..0.BMW*

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/audi/a8/100164587/incentives.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.newvdpheadertools..0.Audi*

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/mercedesbenz/sclass/100197208/incentives.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.newvdpheadertools..0.Mercedes-Benz*

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/lexus/ls430/100159991/incentives.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.newvdpheadertools..0.Lexus*

Only the 7 series has 4k of dealer cash incentives on it.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2003)

robg said:


> I would think these numbers tell the story about how the general public feels about Bangled BMWs compared w/ their competitors:
> 
> http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/bmw...id=edmunds.n.prices.newvdpheadertools..0.BMW*
> 
> ...


 Well, based on official BMW sales figures (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030903/nyw126_1.html), combined E65 sales are off over 10% from last year's YTD sales (combined) and August sales are off prior year August by over 20%.

That's for a relatively new model. So our E65 bashing forecasts were correct, that once the trendy folks have theirs, sales will tank.

And when you look at used values, the last of the E38s are worth almost as much as the oldest E65s.


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## IndyMike (Dec 19, 2001)

Lomag said:


> I think BMW could careless what people on an internet message board think.


I respectfully disagree. It was BBS's such as this one that helped goad BMW into offering a steering retrofit to those of us that purchased selected '01's with neutered steering racks.



Lomag said:


> Its a fact that most the negativity comes from people who haven't seen the car in the flesh yet, especially E39 owners.


Admittedly I'm not an E39 owner; but my opinions are based on having physically seen the E60 after having just spent 2 weeks in Germany. I thought it looked decent in the mags and having viewed pics on my monitor. When I saw it in the flesh I was disappointed. IMO it looks far better on paper and on the screen than it does in person.

Like when the E65 was introduced, I am not in the market at this time for a 5er. But it would be within the normal life-cycle of the E60 that I would be. So it is more than just a bit disconcerting to me, someone about to go on his 5th BMW in 12 years, that I may have to look elsewhere to satisfy my automotive requirements.



Lomag said:


> Remember, what floats someone elses boat may not float yours and vice versa.


I completely agree with you here. In what remains of the day it is the opinion of the buyer that matters most. If it blows someone's hair back, then I would expect them to be excited about getting their hands on one. I just believe that it's unfair to say that it's sour-grapes by E39 owners.

The bottom line is that if someone can be so easily swayed by the opinions of those that they have never met (nor likely will ever), then I'd say they have some serious issues to deal with. They shouldn't need me nor anyone else to validate the wisdom of their decision. If you (general useage) like it, and it meets the criteria that you have set forth then buy it and enjoy the heck out of it. That glee should never be diminshed by what anyone else thinks, or says.


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

Lomag said:


> In the end it all comes down to business. The cars could be butt ugly to you but if they sell, so be it. Just like the new Cadillac's to me. I think they're ugly but apparently many others like them enough to buy them.
> 
> Remember, what floats someone elses boat may not float yours and vice versa.


Exactly. I'm the same way about new Infinitis and Nissans. Everytime I see a G35, FX, 350z, or Maxima I cringe and ask myself how someone could buy something so hideous.

Classic case of to each, their own.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

For what it's worth, I saw the E60 in person in May while in Europe for delivery of my BMW. I had already sene plenty of leaked pictures, etc, and It looked WORSE in person. I don't own an E39, so I don't care. In fact the opposite, I was hoping to like the new 5er. I have tried like hell, but after months of seeing it in person, in magazines, on TV and in motion (Munich) I still think it is hideous. 

I think the new 350Z, G35, and FX are ALL hideous as well. Especially the Maxima.


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## Lomag (Jul 17, 2003)

I think its the headlight/taillight style which turns you off and many others. All those cars you mentioned have "unusual" head/tail lights. Looking at other new cars like the Acura TL, some new Merc models (spyshots) they are all starting to have this stretched out look.

I guess it's some new design trend. I'll be honnest, I wasn't really turned on by the E60's headlights, especially the part that stretches back so far but I've gotten used to them and now they look pretty good. The taillights were never a problem for me.

Perhaps in the future when all cars have funky head/tail lights the BMW will look the best out of them? :dunno:


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

TD said:


> And when you look at used values, the last of the E38s are worth almost as much as the oldest E65s.


One of these days I really need to take a course in TD math. 

Since when has ~$43,000 been "almost equal" to ~$57,000? (NADA dealer retail for a clean '01 740i and an '02 745i with no mileage/option adds or deducts)


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

robg said:


> I would think these numbers tell the story about how the general public feels about Bangled BMWs compared w/ their competitors:
> 
> http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/bmw...id=edmunds.n.prices.newvdpheadertools..0.BMW*
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that all of those manufacturers are pushing agressive financing rates for up to 60 months (and even 72 on the S class). I can surely bet they have some attractive lease programs too.

Instead, BMW decided to issue "marketing support" in the form of manufacturer to dealer cash, instead of offering low financing rates, lease rates and over-inflated residual values. They ended all special programs in place up until last month, and the dealer cash on any new car is not to be used in combination with previous offers-- in other words, if you want to use a low lease rate or financing rate you locked in last month, you won't get the cash. It's either or. And, BMW went back to the standard rates for this month, which are much higher. While it's more obvious that BMW is putting money on the table to move the product, I find it hard to believe that they are giving up much more than Benz, Lexus or Audi. In fact, anyone familiar with the business would realize that those companies stand to loose alot with inflating residuals, and subsidizing leases and loans.

So, if you think BMW is the only one giving away money on these cars to move inventory, then you need to read in between the lines of the other companies offerings, too.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

DougP said:


> I think I'll wait for the opinion of some one who's livelihood doesn't rely on selling BMWs...not to mention checking one out myself
> 
> Doug


Good point. I came in at the end of the SpeedChannel test drive yesterday. They appeared to like the 5 a lot, but I'd like to see their entire drive. Does anyone know when they'll show it again?


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> Keep in mind that all of those manufacturers are pushing agressive financing rates for up to 60 months (and even 72 on the S class). I can surely bet they have some attractive lease programs too.
> 
> Instead, BMW decided to issue "marketing support" in the form of manufacturer to dealer cash, instead of offering low financing rates, lease rates and over-inflated residual values. They ended all special programs in place up until last month, and the dealer cash on any new car is not to be used in combination with previous offers-- in other words, if you want to use a low lease rate or financing rate you locked in last month, you won't get the cash. It's either or. And, BMW went back to the standard rates for this month, which are much higher. While it's more obvious that BMW is putting money on the table to move the product, I find it hard to believe that they are giving up much more than Benz, Lexus or Audi. In fact, anyone familiar with the business would realize that those companies stand to loose alot with inflating residuals, and subsidizing leases and loans.
> 
> So, if you think BMW is the only one giving away money on these cars to move inventory, then you need to read in between the lines of the other companies offerings, too.


Hmmm. I didn't realize that BMW is making the dealer cash mututally exclusive to the lower financing rates. I thought it was SOP in the luxury car world to never offer cash incentives (or if you, very small ones)- and instead to manipulate lease and financing rates. More aggressive finance and lease rates have a less pronounced effect on resale values of older cars- I thought, and there's something a little less "obvious" about it then simply lowering the sale price.


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## Scorp76 (Dec 9, 2002)

zhangqj said:


> How would E-60 compare to E-65 in quality and reliability?


Wouldn't know since I don't have the gift of seeing the future like postoak.


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## Love530 (Sep 4, 2003)

*Wow*

 I test drove the E60 last night at my dealer. Nothing else to say but WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mine is still slated for the 44th week of production, so it looks like I'll have to wait until November to see that beautiful piece of work . The active steering on the sport is a big improvement on my '02 E39. The I-drive is easy to use and believe it or not I actually liked the cup holders better than what I have now! Any of those naysayers out there who haven't taken it for a drive yet, run to your dealer and take it out for an hour or two, you'll fall in love with it!


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

Love530 said:


> I test drove the E60 last night at my dealer. Nothing else to say but WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mine is still slated for the 44th week of production, so it looks like I'll have to wait until November to see that beautiful piece of work . The active steering on the sport is a big improvement on my '02 E39. The I-drive is easy to use and believe it or not I actually liked the cup holders better than what I have now! Any of those naysayers out there who haven't taken it for a drive yet, run to your dealer and take it out for an hour or two, you'll fall in love with it!


I drove it yesterday as well and I wasn't impressed at all. The car is still ugly, the interior is cold and who wants to be disconected to the road? The best car I ever drove had no power anything.

To all of these guys who drove the E60 at Ari or in Atlanta, how come BMW didn't offer you guys the E39 for a real comparison?

The E60 will sell, becasue you can put shit in a can put a roundel on it and people will buy it.

Thank GOD for Porsche and the new 997, see ya BMW enjoy your new clients they have no taste!


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## Ågent99 (Jan 7, 2002)

jzdinan540i said:


> I drove it yesterday as well and I wasn't impressed at all. The car is still ugly, the interior is cold and who wants to be disconected to the road? The best car I ever drove had no power anything.
> 
> To all of these guys who drove the E60 at Ari or in Atlanta, how come BMW didn't offer you guys the E39 for a real comparison?
> 
> ...


 :rofl: So I guess your name will never change to jzdinan545i!! 

I expect in 2006 that I shall be ready (emotionally, physically, monetarily) for my first V8 5er from BMW. I'm sure the car will have grown on my by then.

Chris


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

Ågent99 said:


> :rofl: So I guess your name will never change to jzdinan545i!!
> 
> I expect in 2006 that I shall be ready (emotionally, physically, monetarily) for my first V8 5er from BMW. I'm sure the car will have grown on my by then.
> 
> Chris


LOLOLOL I doubt the name will ever change as the E39 and I have such a great relationship. It really bothers me how BMW has destroyed such great heritage. The new cars all make me want to puke. My mom has never owned anything but a BMW, last week she traded in her 3 year old 330 CIC for a new CLK 320. We are all jumping ship and its sad, for I get such good pricing on new BMW's LOL.

If you want a V8 go drive the E500, CLK 500 or the New A8, now those are German cars.

There was a Grand Prix at the dealership yesterday and it was parked close enough to be able to compare the two cars, and you are right on the money. The dealership asked me not to speak to any more potential customers ahahahahaha. I think one guy actually decided to take my advice and went to Audi LOL.


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## Love530 (Sep 4, 2003)

*Oh well*

Having owned both an A6 and a CLK430 I still believe in my heart that my E39 is hands down the best vehicle I have ever driven :drive: . The Audi was plagued with little electrical probs and the Benz just didn't make me smile when I went for a drive. I'm hoping the E60 will give me the same warm and fuzzy feeling inside and that Mr. Bangle continues to improve on an excellent concept. If you don't like it, just close your eyes when I blow by you on the highway :wahwah:


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## 1RADBMR (Sep 24, 2003)

*My $.02 on the E60*

Once the sellers, haters, and wannabe's have been replaced with owners on this and other forums...only then will we have a true picture of the E60.

Hello Jon Shafer. Would have posted sooner, if I had found the site and known you were associated with it.

Cheers


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## sshuit (Apr 15, 2002)

Love530 said:


> If you don't like it, just close your eyes when I blow by you on the highway :wahwah:


If You're driving an E60, theres a very good chance everyone near you will be averting their eyes and clawing out their retinas.

E60 = fugly.

One man's opinion.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

sshuit said:


> .....E60 = fugly.
> 
> One man's opinion....


And Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one 

beewang :bigpimp:

2005 Mystic 545 SMG, PDC, Sports, Nav, HUD, Shades, Premium Sound (on Order)

2002 LeMans 550 i6 PDC, Shades, M-Audio


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## 1RADBMR (Sep 24, 2003)

beewang said:


> And Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one
> 
> beewang
> 
> 2005 Mystic 545 SMG, PDC, Sports, Nav, HUD


Damn Bee, you certainly put your money where your mouth is. Going to tire of the M5 that soon?  (Haven't figured out emoticons yet...I'm low tech)


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Love530 said:


> Having owned both an A6 and a CLK430 I still believe in my heart that my E39 is hands down the best vehicle I have ever driven :drive: . The Audi was plagued with little electrical probs and the Benz just didn't make me smile when I went for a drive. I'm hoping the E60 will give me the same warm and fuzzy feeling inside and that Mr. Bangle continues to improve on an excellent concept. If you don't like it, just close your eyes when I blow by you on the highway :wahwah:


You want to run 'em? The 545 will be quick, but I bet my car is quicker.

And it's cheaper.

And it's not fugly.

But if you don't want to compare an M3 to a 545, let's compare a competitor. The CTS-V will offer the same interior space as a 545, weigh about the same, but will have 75 additional horsepower and cost $10K less. And I'll be able to buy one with no nagging guilt about supporting German union workers instead of American union workers.

And while the CTS might be fugly, it's no fuglier than the E60. So I'll save 10K, thank you very much.

BMW has lost me. Said, but true.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

JST said:


> You want to run 'em? The 545 will be quick, but I bet my car is quicker.
> 
> And it's cheaper.
> 
> ...


Okay tuff guy  Then how about lets compare a Mustang SVT (2drs) vs your M3  ?? :dunno: You'd be saving about $20k and be faster w/ a V8 and a Blower :thumbup: Don't like my point  How about a Z06 and save another $10K??

Do you see why this is a mood point??!!

beewang :bigpimp: 
:bigpimp:


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## 1RADBMR (Sep 24, 2003)

beewang said:


> Okay tuff guy  Then how about lets compare a Mustang SVT (2drs) vs your M3  ?? :dunno: You'd be saving about $20k and be faster w/ a V8 and a Blower :thumbup: Don't like my point  How about a Z06 and save another $10K??
> 
> Do you see why this is a mood point??!!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lesson on emoticons. Think I've got it figured out somewhat.


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## Ågent99 (Jan 7, 2002)

beewang said:


> Okay tuff guy  Then how about lets compare a Mustang SVT (2drs) vs your M3  ?? :dunno: You'd be saving about $20k and be faster w/ a V8 and a Blower :thumbup: Don't like my point  How about a Z06 and save another $10K??
> 
> Do you see why this is a mood point??!!
> 
> ...


dood, get rid of some of that crap in your sig or at least line them up side by side...JFC!!!!!! 

I'll have edit your :bareass:!!!

Chris :angel:


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

beewang said:


> Okay tuff guy  Then how about lets compare a Mustang SVT (2drs) vs your M3  ?? :dunno: You'd be saving about $20k and be faster w/ a V8 and a Blower :thumbup: Don't like my point  How about a Z06 and save another $10K??
> 
> Do you see why this is a mood point??!!
> 
> ...


It's actually a good point. If the Z06 had four seats, I would have bought it, hands down, though I wouldn't have saved much if anything over the M3.

I considered the SVT Cobra. In the end, the blown engine wasn't enough to overcome the ancient chassis. The Fox chassis was old when I first got my driver's license, and it hasn't gotten any fresher. Plus, the Cobra weighs like 3700 lbs.

In contrast, the CTS is on a brand-new, world-class chassis that according to reports is capable of lapping the 'ring faster than any of the current M cars. The interior of the CTS is not as nice as the E39, but it's no worse than the cheap crap that they've specc'ed for the E60. Put a blue-mit-weiss on the nose of the Cadillac, and people would be falling all over themselves to buy one.

But the Mustang's getting a new chassis. Hmm, a CTS-V and an 05 SVT...that would be a nice garage.

EDIT: But that might be too many Ss, Vs and Ts.


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

So Bee what are you going to drive?
The new M5 is SMG only, press release in Autoweek confirms it. 

Best bang for the buck is an SVT Cobra hands down (4k in mods will destroy anything on 4 wheels), 2nd would be the Sti.

Audi is looking better and better


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

JST said:


> The interior of the CTS is not as nice as the E39, but it's no worse than the cheap crap that they've specc'ed for the E60. Put a blue-mit-weiss on the nose of the Cadillac, and people would be falling all over themselves to buy one.


Yep.


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## roxnadz (Jan 10, 2003)

adrian's bmw said:


> To me, the Benz is like a gorgeous "blonde" with lacking brains whereas the Bimmer is a bespectled, sexy, suave brunette with intellect and mojo to boot.


See, that's the problem. You can't look at cars the same way you look at people (women). They're two entirely different types of animal.

I personally prefer the 'bespectacled, sexy, suave brunette' over the gorgeous blonde, because, with people, it's what's on the inside that counts, not the outside. But with cars, the outside is _all_ that matters, because number one, it's not something that can be easily changed, and number two, what's on the inside is not nearly as dynamic.


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## Ohmess (May 29, 2003)

I have to agree -- the e60 is downright ugly. The Dame edna headlights, the slab side doors, the bustle trunk, the interior doors, I drive; ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly and stupid. The only thing that interest me are the active roll stabilization and active steering. I drove an e65 with active roll stabilization and for a big boat it cornered really well. I haven't yet tried active steering, but I'd like to. In any event, I'll be keeping my e39 a long time. And I'm worried for BMW's future. I think the new styling is going to be a flop and will really hurt the company.


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## Aye Chingow! (Oct 6, 2003)

First, new to this board so HI everybody.

Well if its attention BMW was looking for they sure are getting it. Just look at all the posts from just this subject alone! And so much emotion







!

If all the people shouting foul would just take a breath and think about the history of BMW for second. Consider the 2002. It was considered fugly too. A parallelogram with a trapezoid stuck on top. Now it is an icon of the blue and white roundel. The e36 was said to look like a Honda by the "purists" when it was introduced. And really guys, if you look at a stock non-sport e39, it is quite bland and was also a departure from the traditional look of the 5. The e34 was the zenith of that era of BMW styling IMO. I still like the e34. And I thought I would have mine longer, until I drove an e39! Since we are telling the future here, I say give it a year. I bet all the Mercs, Audis, Lexus and Cadillac owners will be driving around in their "designed for everyone" cars and looking at the e60 passing them with envy. Especially when the M5 hits the streets and tuners such as Dinan get their hands on it (can you say 700HP?). Do I love the new look? No, not yet, but its growing on me.

One last note, you guys who are acting like BMW did this just to piss you off personally... come on. I do think they took a huge risk, but to say they are "shoving it down our throats" is a bit over the top. Its a car for crying out loud! We always have choices and again, time will tell if they did the right thing.

Sorry for the long-ish post...


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## postoak (Mar 5, 2002)

Welcome aboard Aye! 

I'm really more puzzled than anything. Why is Chris Bangle viewed with respect when he makes ugly cars? There are a lot of attractive cars on the road but I couldn't BEGIN to tell you the names of the designers. Does Chris Bangle spend most of his salary on a PR firm? 

I AM, I suppose, angry that sub-mediocrity is being rewarded. (Bangle shouldn't have a high-level job in auto design, much less be talked about, IMO.) 

And I'm annoyed that BMW MAY be forcing me away from their products because of bad business decisions.

As for your historical perspective -- I can't speak on much of it. I'm old enough to remember when the 2002 came out and I don't recall viewing it as ugly, though.

PS: Attention doesn't equate to sales. A lot of attention is paid to the Aztek. I haven't looked but I would be surprised if it is setting any sales records.


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## Aye Chingow! (Oct 6, 2003)

postoak said:


> Welcome aboard Aye!
> 
> I'm really more puzzled than anything. Why is Chris Bangle viewed with respect when he makes ugly cars? There are a lot of attractive cars on the road but I couldn't BEGIN to tell you the names of the designers. Does Chris Bangle spend most of his salary on a PR firm?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here.

I am actually not old enough to remember the 2002's intro. I just heard that from a friend who is . The rest I am old enough to remember though.

Your right attention doesn't equal sales, but I don't think I am a Bimmer fan cause everyone drives one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Bangle or BMWs decision to listen to him. The weird thing is, car companies do focus groups to determine acceptance of a new car. Did BMW do this with the new design philosophy? If so, they must have gotten a similar reaction as they are getting now. Did they somehow figure the uproar would be worth it in the long run? Guess I am perplexed as well. Here is another thought, in the US we buy German cars, because they feel and look German. But in Germany, maybe they thought, lets do something different! And hired a non-German to carry it out. What may be a dissappointment to us, is exciting and new to them. Who knows, like I said, time will tell if this was a flop or marketing genius!


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