# BMW NA halts trade in or sale of affected air bag recalled BMW cars



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

As the result of Safety Recall 16V-071 for the Drivers Front Air Bag Module BMW has limited the ability of dealers to take trade ins of vehicles affected by the airbag recall. Check back often as Bimmerfest is keeping this post updated with news about the recall as it happens. If you're wondering how this happened read the full back story of Takata airbag crisis from the US Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation here.

*BMW Driver-Side Front Air Bag Module Voluntary Safety Recall*
BMW AG is conducting a Voluntary Safety Recall involving Driver-Side Front Air Bag Module on certain BMW vehicles that are equipped with non-desiccated Takata PSDI-5 inflators. These vehicles, covering model years 2006-2015 have not been part of earlier Takata-related air bag recalls. There are approximately 840,000 vehicles in the US.

*Affected BMW Models*

E82 1 Series Coupe incl M - 2008 - 2013
E88 1 Series Convertible - 2008 - 2013
E90 3 Series Sedan incl M - 2006 - 2011
E91 3 Series Sport wagon - 2006 - 2012
E92 3 Series Coupe incl M - 2007 - 2013
E93 3 Series Convertible, incl M - 2017 - 2013
E84 X1 - 2013 - 2015
E83 X3 - 2007 - 2010
E70 X5 incl M - 2007 - 2013
E70 X5 Diesel - 2008 - 2013
E71 X6 incl M - 2018 - 2014
E72 X6 ActiveHybrid - 2010 - 2011

*BMW's repair "plan"mandated by the NHSTA*

*BMW Specific "Sufficient Supply Timeline"*

Priority Group 1: August 31, 2016
Priority Group 2: February 28, 2017
Priority Group 3: May 31, 2017

*BMW Specific "Remedy Completion Target Deadline"*

Priority Group 1: May 31, 2018
Priority Group 2: May 31, 2018
Priority Group 3: May 31, 2018
Priority Group 4: May 31, 2020

*BMW Models by Priority Group*
The NHTSA has released a list of BMWs affected by Priority Group. The NHTSA has let BMW and other manufacturers define their own area of high absolute humidity (HAH) so expect variations between manufacturers. The NHTSA is mandating that all vehicles originally sold or ever registered in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Saipan and the US Virgin Islands be considered HAH vehicles. Non-HAH means any vehicle that has not been identified by the vehicle manufacture as having been originally sold or ever registered in the HAHA regions, as defined by the vehicle manufacturer.

*BMW Priority Group 1*

2002 - 2006 BMW 3 Series, M3 in HAH areas

*BMW Priority Group 2*

2000 - 2001 BMW 3 Series in HAH areas
2002 - 2006 BMW 3 Series in non-HAH areas
2002 - 2003 BMW 5 Series in HAH and non-HAH areas
2003 - 2004 BMW X5 in HAH and non-HAH areas

*BMW Priority Group 3*

2000 - 2001 BMW 3 Series in non-HAH areas

*BMW Priority Group 4*

All other BMWs? The NHTSA doc is not clear on this

*Priority Group Definitions*
*Priority Group 1*
Vehicles in Priority Group 1 are equipped with Takata inflators that pose the highest risk of rupture and thus the highest risk of injury or death to the vehicle occupants. Generally, Priority Group 1 vehicles are currently model year 2008 and earlier, and have spent time in the HAH region, and have either a recalled driver side inflator or both recalled driver side and passenger side inflators in the same vehicle.

*Priority Group 2*
Vehicles in Priority Group 2 are equipped with Takata inflators that pose an intermediate risk of rupture; that is, a lower risk of rupture and resulting injury or death to vehicle occupants than the inflators and vehicles in Priority Group 1, but a higher likelihood of rupture and injury or death than vehicles in Priority Groups 3 and 4. Generally, Priority Group 2 includes: (1) all remaining vehicles with recalled driver side inflators (this includes, vehicles 2009 and newer, and/or vehicles with recalled driver inflators only that have not spent time in the HAH region), and; (2) vehicles with certain recalled passenger inflator types that have a higher rupture frequency and that have also spent time in the HAH region.

*Priority Group 3*
Vehicles in Priority Group 3 are equipped with Takata inflators that pose an unreasonable risk of serious injury or death to vehicle occupants and should be remedied as soon as possible following the remedy of the highest risk vehicles in Priority Groups 1 and 2. The likelihood of these inflators rupturing is lower than Priority Groups 1 and 2. Generally, Priority Group 3 includes the remaining vehicles, specifically, vehicles that are model year 2009 and later and either: (1) are outside the HAH region and contain only a passenger side inflator, or; (2) are in the HAH region and contain a specific passenger side inflator type with a lower rupture rate (the PSPI type) than other passenger side inflator types.

*Priority Group 4*
Some Initial Vehicle Manufacturers are replacing recalled inflators with newly manufactured "like-for-like" inflators while they work towards an alternative, final remedy. Vehicles in Priority Group 4 include those vehicles with driver side frontal air bag inflators that have received, or will receive, an "interim remedy," meaning they have been, or will be, remedied with a Takata inflator that has been recalled, and will require a second remedy once the final remedy is available.

Once repaired with the interim remedy, these vehicles are at the lowest risk of an inflator rupture because the inflator is new and has not yet been subject to long-term continuous exposure to HAH conditions. Unless specifically added at a later date to a higher Priority Group for re-remedy by their vehicle manufacturer, all remaining vehicles requiring a second, final, remedy of the inflator(s) are included in Priority Group 4

*BMW Lease Customers - Re-Lease program details*

For customers within the last 60 days of their lease, a 12 month early***8211;out Re-Lease will be available. A lease extension will NOT be available. Customers who choose the Re-Lease option can remain in their current vehicle for an additional 12 months, with an opportunity to get out early, after their vehicle has been repaired. Customers considering this option should contact the BMW FS Lease Retention team at 1-800-959-4269 for further assistance.

*Customers who choose the Re-Lease option will be eligible for the following benefits:*

A reduction in their monthly payment of $150 per month for the period of the Re-Lease; however, their monthly payment will not be reduced below $1.00 per month.
After the customer car is repaired, the customer will be eligible for a $2,500 Loyalty Certificate which can be applied to the purchase or lease of a new or CPO BMW financed by BMW FS. This certificate is non-transferable.
This Certificate can be used to pay off the Re-Lease vehicle.

*BMW gets 5-month extensions on Takata airbag fixes*


> U.S. auto safety regulators have granted BMW of North America a five-month extension to complete repairs on some of its vehicles affected by the Takata airbag inflator recalls after replacement inflators from an alternative supplier failed in testing.
> 
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says BMW now has until May 31, 2020, to replace all defective PSDI-4 driver-side inflators from Takata, according to a copy of the extension order provided to Automotive News by the agency. They were installed in 420,000 BMW vehicles, including 2002-06 3-series models, 2002-03 5-series models, and 2003-04 X5s.
> 
> About 1.8 million Takata inflators in BMW vehicles are covered by the Takata recalls and need to be replaced. The extension only applies to vehicles with the PSDI-4 inflators.


*Read the full story at Automotive News*

*BMW Air Bag Recall Q&A*

*Which models are included in this Safety Recall Campaign?*
Included are approximately 840,000 vehicles, with approximate volumes and production dates as noted below.










*BMW conducted safety recalls in 2013, 2014 and 2015 on a similar issue. How is this different?*
The inflators are different. This recall campaign pertains to the Takata PSDI-5 inflator. The earlier recalls pertained to different inflators produced by Takata.

*Are BMW M models included in this recall campaign?*
Yes. Please refer to chart above.

*Is this recall comparable to similar recalls being conducted by other Manufacturers?*
Yes. This recall campaign involves the Takata PSDI-5 inflator.

*How many BMW vehicles in the US are included in this Safety Recall?*
The number of BMW vehicles in the US included in this recall is approximately 840,000. This amount has not changed since February 5, 2016. When viewing "Vehicle Comments" the date referenced only reflects when the comments were updated.

*Why are other models not included?*
Other models are not included because this recall pertains specifically to vehicles equipped with the Takata PSDI-5 inflator.

*What is the specific concern?*
Takata's investigation to date indicates that, due to exposure to certain environmental conditions (several years of exposure to persistent conditions of high absolute humidity), this could lead to over-aggressive combustion in the event of air bag deployment.

*What can happen as a result of this issue?*
In a crash where air bag system deployment occurs, the air bag inflator housing may rupture. In the event of an inflator rupture, metal fragments could pass through the air bag cushion material, which may result in injury or death to vehicle occupants.

*Is there a possibility to find out whether the problem exists in my car? *
No. There is no way to detect if your BMW might have an air bag inflator potentially at risk of rupturing upon deployment in an accident.

*Can I continue to drive my vehicle?*
Yes. BMW is not aware of a ruptured inflator in any of its vehicles associated with this recall. Vehicles equipped with air bags, including air bags that are under recall, save lives and reduce injuries. The vast majority of Takata air bags will perform as expected. When you receive a letter asking you to have this service performed by an authorized BMW center, please do so as soon as possible. If you are not the only driver of this vehicle, please advise all other drivers of this important information.

*What measures will be taken to fix this?*
The driver's front air bag module will be replaced.

*How did BMW become aware of this issue?*
BMW became aware of this issue from Takata (the air bag module supplier) and NHTSA

*Is BMW aware of any accidents or injuries involving BMW vehicles associated with this recall campaign?*
No. BMW is not aware of a ruptured inflator in any of its vehicles associated with this recall.

*How will I be informed of this recall program?*
If your vehicle is affected, you will receive an initial letter in March via First Class mail advising you of this recall. You should receive an additional letter when replacement parts become available, requesting that you schedule an appointment to bring your vehicle to an authorized
BMW center for service and repair.

*Will my BMW center deactivate my driver's front air bag until it is replaced?*
No, NHTSA estimates that frontal air bags saved 2,400 lives in 2014 alone. It is far more likely that if you are involved in a crash that your air bag will perform properly and protect you than it will rupture and cause harm.

*How will this program be performed?*
When you are notified via the final letter, you will be asked to make an appointment with an authorized BMW center who will order the replacement driver's front air bag module for your vehicle prior to your appointment.

*How long will the repair take?*
This repair may take approximately two hours; however, additional time may be required depending upon your BMW center's schedule. The repair will be performed free of charge by your authorized BMW center.

*Do I have to wait for my letter in order to have my vehicle serviced?*
Yes. BMW is in the process of implementing this program to ensure that the necessary parts, tools and procedures are available to its authorized BMW centers, prior to instructing you to take your vehicle in for repair.

*Am I eligible for reimbursement under the TREAD Act if I previously replaced my driver's front air bag module?*
In this particular recall, reimbursement is likely not applicable, as you would typically have replaced your driver's front air bag module as a result of an accident. In that situation, either your insurance company paid for the repair, or you paid "out-of-pocket".

However, in the very unusual (unlikely) scenario that you previously replaced the driver's front air bag module "out-of-pocket" upon learning of this possible defect, you may be eligible for reimbursement. Additional information will be provided when BMW mails the additional letter, asking you to make an appointment with an authorized BMW center to have your driver's front air bag module replaced.

*When are the repair parts expected to be available?*
BMW expects to receive a limited number of repair parts starting in the summer of 2016

*How will the repair be introduced to USA customers?*
When an adequate inventory of parts is available, final owner notification letters will initially be issued via US First Class Mail to owners of the highest risk registered vehicles, i.e., oldest models in highest absolute humidity areas (e.g., USA Gulf states). As parts supply increases, all owners of affected vehicles will be notified by First Class mail.

*Why is the passenger's front air bag not affected?*
*The passenger's front air bag does not contain a Takata PSDI-5 inflator so it is not affected by this recall.*

*Will BMW give me a loaner vehicle until a repair part is available?*
If replacement parts are not available, BMW has authorized its centers to provide or assist customers with alternate transportation, subject to availability.

*Can dealers sell impacted vehicles to customers?*
No. All impacted vehicles/VINs are on stop sale and cannot be sold at this time. BMW NA will not indemnify dealers on any sales that violate the stop sale mandate.

*Will the replacement modules contain ammonium nitrate?*
No

*May a BMW dealer deactivate any air bag?*
No.

*What should dealers do when a owner wants to trade in a BMW subject to the safety recall?*
Dealers will have the option to continue to take in BMW vehicles on trade. These vehicles will be eligible for BMW floorplan and depreciation assistance.

*What should dealers do when an off-lease owner wants to purchase his/her impacted lease vehicle?*
These vehicles are currently subject to the stop sale. Additional information regarding these vehicles will be available soon.

*Will BMW offer any programs to impacted owners who don't feel comfortable driving their vehicles?*
Yes. BMW would like to remind you that you may continue driving you BMWs. BMW is not aware of a ruptured inflator in any of BMW vehicles associated with this recall.

BMW is developing a complete dealer toolbox including loyalty incentives, loaner vehicles incentives, lease extensions, etc. as well as a decision tree on how to prioritize these tools. Details to follow before the customer recall letters go out.

*Should BMW dealers provide concerned impacted owners with a service loaner or rental vehicle?*
Yes. BMW dealers should provide alternate transportation to any owner that requests one while their vehicle is awaiting remedy parts. Customers may be offered a rental vehicle per current guidelines.

*Can BMW service loaners included in the safety recall be loaned out to current owners?*
No.

*Will customers be required to continue to make their monthly payment to BMW FS while waiting for repair?*
Yes.

*Will BMW provide any special CPO sales support for vehicles impacted by the stop sale once repaired?*
Yes. BMW will offer special low APR CPO rates on all impacted stop sale MY13 ***8211; MY15 vehicles, as long as CPO certification requirements are properly met once parts are available and the vehicle is repaired.

*What are the specifics of the BMW dealer trade-in assistance package?*
The package will cover all BMW vehicles subject to the stop sale acquired by the following methods: trade-ins, off-lease purchase and auction. The package will be paid monthly from the time of stop sale until an impacted vehicle is repaired.

*If a dealer takes an impacted trade or off lease vehicle today, will it also qualify for the BMW trade-in assistance package?*
Yes. Any impacted vehicles acquired before the stop sale was announced or while the stop sale is in effect, will qualify for financial assistance.

*My Situation*
I own a 2011 X5 35i with 66k miles (new engine being put in by BMW NA) and would like to trade it for a new 2016 X5 lease or used loaner lease. But all BMW dealers and other brand dealers have stop taking in trade ins on these airbag recalled BMW cars per BMW directive of not accepting liability if they take a trade in or sell one of the affected cars.

As an owner what I'm to do with this car, if the is no foresight at least until 2017 and beyond for a fix to the recall?


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Quatro40 said:


> I own a 2011 X5 35i with 66k miles (new engine being put in by BMW NA) and would like to trade it for a new 2016 X5 lease or used loaner lease. But all BMW dealers and other brand dealers have stop taking in trade ins on these airbag recalled BMW cars per BMW directive of not accepting liability if they take a trade in or sell one of the affected cars.
> 
> As an owner what I'm to do with this car, if the is no foresight at least until 2017 and beyond for a fix to the recall?


Cant you get the airbag fixed under the recall? Forgive me for asking a silly question as I have not followed this extremely closely. Are you saying that, AFTER it is fixed via recall, a BMW dealer still will not take the car in any trade, or are you saying you are not getting the trade in value you want?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jjrandorin said:


> Cant you get the airbag fixed under the recall? Forgive me for asking a silly question as I have not followed this extremely closely. Are you saying that, AFTER it is fixed via recall, a BMW dealer still will not take the car in any trade, or are you saying you are not getting the trade in value you want?


What he is saying is that the parts to fix it are not available from Takata, the airbag manufacturer, and there is no reliable estimate for when they will become available. What he is not saying is that BMW dealers were advised that they could not sell any car with an open airbag recall, at least not until their legal department can figure out a way around that by maybe having the buyer sign a waiver or something?

What sort of caught me by surprise in his post was that I guess I didn't expect that they might refuse to take those cars in trade. Obviously if it's not on a lease with BMWFS, then there is no reason that the dealer has to take it in trade. I think that's harsh but I'm just saying. I wonder if that was just an individual dealer's decision? After all, why would you take a car in trade that you are not allowed to sell and must put into storage for an indefinite period?

The bigger problem for them is probably going to be if someone with one of those cars on a present lease wants to buy the car at the end of the lease in spite of that not being the best idea in the world. Then what? Well, obviously if they are under orders not to sell a car with an open recall, then they cannot allow the customer to exercise his option to purchase the car at the end of the lease. I'm not saying anyone should want to do that, but what if they did? Since it's a lease, they must take it back at the end of the lease because all you have to do is drop it off and hand them the keys. Naturally they will bill you for any excess wear and tear just as they always do. I wonder if this means you aren't going to get any reduced payoff amounts?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

jjrandorin said:


> Cant you get the airbag fixed under the recall? Forgive me for asking a silly question as I have not followed this extremely closely. Are you saying that, AFTER it is fixed via recall, a BMW dealer still will not take the car in any trade, or are you saying you are not getting the trade in value you want?


Hi, there is no fix at all for the next 2 years. BMW decided to design their own airbag modules away from Takata. After it is fixed then the stop sale is lifted. Meanwhile we are stuck with the cars as no dealer will take a trade in on one of them. If you look around you will notice that there are no more 2013 and under X5's offered for sale on dealers lots and websites.

As for the value the car took a big depreciation hit after it was included in the latest airbag recall and now when the news of the the halt of sales or trades becomes public the value is going to plummet even more.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> The bigger problem for them is probably going to be if someone with one of those cars on a present lease wants to buy the car at the end of the lease in spite of that not being the best idea in the world. Then what? Well, obviously if they are under orders not to sell a car with an open recall, then they cannot allow the customer to exercise his option to purchase the car at the end of the lease. I'm not saying anyone should want to do that, but what if they did? Since it's a lease, they must take it back at the end of the lease because all you have to do is drop it off and hand them the keys. Naturally they will bill you for any excess wear and tear just as they always do. I wonder if this means you aren't going to get any reduced payoff amounts?


They won't let you buy back your 2013 leased car if it fall under the airbag recall. They will take it back at lease end but will not let you buy it out. Same if you want to buy out the lease before it ends they won't let you if the car falls under the airbag recall.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Thanks both for explaining to me. Wow, that is... wow...

Maybe you could talk to another dealer to find out if this is an individual dealership policy or a BMW NA wide policy? Not sure what you should do, but the one thing you would know is, you are definitely not the only person in this position.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

jjrandorin said:


> Thanks both for explaining to me. Wow, that is... wow...
> 
> Maybe you could talk to another dealer to find out if this is an individual dealership policy or a BMW NA wide policy? Not sure what you should do, but the one thing you would know is, you are definitely not the only person in this position.


I confirmed with several dealers in NJ they told me is a mandate from corporate and it is nationwide.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Okay, I guess he did say that BMW dealers have been advised that they cannot sell any cars with an open recall. I missed that the first time I read it. Yes, that's true. Unless they can get their legal department to figure out a way around that by maybe having the buyer sign a waiver or something. The odds of being killed by a defective airbag are probably more than a million to one.

I believe the confirmed number of deaths from these defective Takata airbags in the U.S. now stands at 10. At least that was the last number I remember seeing. Another number I remember seeing is that the number of potential cars on the road with defective Takata airbags could be 120 million! Right now I believe their total recall is over 30 million. They have entire factories devoted to producing the replacement parts but some of the replacement parts that have already been installed in recalled cars have been proven defective! It's a mess! 

The airbag manufacturer cannot predict when they will be able to supply enough replacement parts to cover all of the recalled cars. The other airbag manufacturers are too busy producing airbags to meet all the sudden surge in new business. Takata has two problems: (1) They used stable ammonium nitrate as a propellant (cheapest solution but not reliable, especially in hot humid climates, and (2) They paid their workers based on a volume bonus basis (number of pieces per hour) -- bad idea if safety is your first priority.

Most, if not all, of the defective parts came from one of their plants in Mexico as far as sloppy work is concerned but all of them at all of their plants used the same cheap stable ammonium nitrate propellant. Other airbag manufacturers use a more expensive, but more reliable, propellant. 

Takata is in deep trouble over this mess and is secretly asking their major customers (Honda and others) about the possibility of a huge financial assistance package to help them survive.

That's about it. The situation is a textbook example of what not to do. This is probably worse then when Lee Iacocca asked Henry Ford II for permission to voluntarily recall the Pinto to fix the gas tanks that were exploding when in a rear-end collision and Ford turned him down because he said it would be too expensive. Later, the government got involved! We used to joke about what would explode first if you were a Pinto owner, your gas tank or your tires. That was around the same time that Firestone 500 tires (not that the Pinto used them) were blowing out at twice the rate of other brands and had to be recalled.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> They won't let you buy back your 2013 leased car if it fall under the airbag recall. They will take it back at lease end but will not let you buy it out. Same if you want to buy out the lease before it ends they won't let you if the car falls under the airbag recall.


Yes, I know that. It's a mess!


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Quatro40 said:


> They won't let you buy back your 2013 leased car if it fall under the airbag recall. They will take it back at lease end but will not let you buy it out. Same if you want to buy out the lease before it ends they won't let you if the car falls under the airbag recall.


Yup, confirmed with BMWFS that we cannot buy my M3 at the end of the lease (end of this month) due to the airbag recall. They will only extended it for two months (end of May) and as of today, I can only return the car back to them after couple months. I can call again in early May and see can they extend it further but the worse case scenario will be return after couple months...that is totally unfair in my opinion.

Should we ask my lawyer for opinions?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

I hope BMW will follows Honda's example of offering a trade in asistance package to dealers so that they can receive trade in that are affected by the recall.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160309/OEM/160309846/honda-readies-financial-aid-to-dealers-over-takata-airbag-recalls


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Hi, there is no fix at all for the next 2 years. BMW decided to design their own airbag modules away from Takata. After it is fixed then the stop sale is lifted. Meanwhile we are stuck with the cars as no dealer will take a trade in on one of them.


Okay, that's the part I didn't know because it wasn't in the automotive press. I didn't know they were going to manufacture their own airbag replacement inflator modules. Or maybe they contracted that out with another manufacturer?

Anyway, I guess I'm surprised but not shocked that they are refusing to take them in trade unless you're on a lease that is expiring. I wonder if that means no pull-ahead offers on any of those cars currently on lease?


----------



## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

Quatro40 said:


> I confirmed with several dealers in NJ they told me is a mandate from corporate and it is nationwide.
> 
> View attachment 554096


Wow. I can sure see other brands not wanting to take these as trade ins, but for BMW to put out an official policy not to take them seems to me they are really opening themselves up to the diminished value lawsuits. If I were you, I would be pissed about this.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> I confirmed with several dealers in NJ they told me is a mandate from corporate and it is nationwide.
> 
> View attachment 554096


I know they can't sell one of those vehicles but that's all that is mentioned in your attachment. Did the dealer show you anything that forbids them from taking one of those in trade? I'm not doubting that, I'm just wondering if he showed you something from BMWNA instructing him to refuse to take one of them in trade?

I know it would be dumb to take in a car that you have to place in storage until a fix become available but I just wondered if they actually told their dealers they can't do that even if they want to be dumb and do it anyway?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> Okay, that's the part I didn't know because it wasn't in the automotive press. I didn't know they were going to manufacture their own airbag replacement inflator modules. Or maybe they contracted that out with another manufacturer?
> 
> Anyway, I guess I'm surprised but not shocked that they are refusing to take them in trade unless you're on a lease that is expiring. I wonder if that means no pull-ahead offers on any of those cars currently on lease?


Takata is going bankrupt they just hired a restructuring attorney that means they will be filing Chapter 13. BMW saw this coming and decided to go independent and build a new airbag module, yes they probably using a secondary company to do so but under their direction. That is why for BMW's it will take longer, R&D, Testing, Gov. blessing then installation phase.

http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-takata-restructuring-idUSL4N16G58J


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> ...that is totally unfair in my opinion.
> 
> Should we ask my lawyer for opinions?


If they can't sell a car with a defective airbag until it is fixed and the parts to fix it are not available then what do you think they should do? Sell it to you anyway?

It's a mess. Your lawyer is almost certainly not experienced in this type of consumer protection law. Ask your lawyer if you can force the seller to sell you a product with a known safety defect that might kill you?

You cannot exercise the option to purchase the car at the end of the lease if the owner of the car (BMWFS) is forbidden from selling a car with a known safety defect and if the replacement parts to fix it are not yet available. Your lease is actually a rental agreement for a fixed period of time with an expiration date. After you have made all of the payments, your rental term is complete and you must return the car to the owner. They would love to sell it to you, believe me they really would! They would even love to sell it to you at a discount if they could.

Let us know if you hear any encouraging words from BMW.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Takata is going bankrupt they just hired a restructuring attorney that means they will be filing Chapter 13. BMW saw this coming and decided to go independent and build a new airbag module, yes they probably using a secondary company to do so but under their direction. That is why for BMW's it will take longer, R&D, Testing, Gov. blessing then installation phase.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...rs-report-says


The link doesn't work but I understand what you're saying. I figured this was coming. They secretly asking Honda for a $100 million loan and I guess Honda didn't want to throw good money after bad. Honda is their largest customer.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Weaselboy said:


> Wow. I can sure see other brands not wanting to take these as trade ins, but for BMW to put out an official policy not to take them seems to me they are really opening themselves up to the diminished value lawsuits. If I were you, I would be pissed about this.


One more point: I guess you realize that BMW is just one of a dozen different automobile manufacturers who use Takata airbags, right? Among the others who use Takata airbags: Mercedes and Audi. I'm not sure about Porsche but probably them, too. Plus virtually all of the large Japanese brands.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> The link doesn't work but I understand what you're saying. I figured this was coming. They secretly asking Honda for a $100 million loan and I guess Honda didn't want to throw good money after bad. Honda is their largest customer.


http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-takata-restructuring-idUSL4N16G58J


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> I hope BMW will follows Honda's example of offering a trade in asistance package to dealers so that they can receive trade in that are affected by the recall.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/20160309/OEM/160309846/honda-readies-financial-aid-to-dealers-over-takata-airbag-recalls


That "trade-in assistance" program is the only part of that Honda news release that I'm not sure if BMW is doing. I would have to ask somebody if they have heard anything about BMW offering that assistance to dealers yet. All of the other stuff in there that Honda is offering the dealers, BMW is doing the same. But based on what you are saying you were told, apparently BMW is not yet offering "trade-in assistance" to their dealers.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> That "trade-in assistance" program is the only part of that Honda news release that I'm not sure if BMW is doing. I would have to ask somebody if they have heard anything about BMW offering that assistance to dealers yet. All of the other stuff in there that Honda is offering the dealers, BMW is doing the same. But based on what you are saying you were told, apparently BMW is not yet offering "trade-in assistance" to their dealers.


Correct, BMW hasn't develop a trade in assistance plan yet for its dealers.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Takata is going bankrupt they just hired a restructuring attorney that means they will be filing Chapter 13. BMW saw this coming and decided to go independent and build a new airbag module, yes they probably using a secondary company to do so but under their direction. That is why for BMW's it will take longer, R&D, Testing, Gov. blessing then installation phase.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-takata-restructuring-idUSL4N16G58J


Thanks! That article confirms everything that has been published lately in Automotive News about the U.S. government seeking to add another 70-90 million inflators to the 29-30 million that have already been recalled in the U.S., not counting the 30 million in the rest of the world, mainly Japan.

I knew Takata asked Honda for financial assistance and Honda rejected their request. I guess BK is their only way to remain in business now.

The law does not allow a manufacturer to sell a new car that is subject to a safety recall until after the necessary repairs have been made but it doesn't prohibit the sale of used cars under such recall. However, the law allows manufacturers to refuse to sell such used cars until after they have been repaired. For obvious reasons it would be financially irresponsible for any manufacturer to allow the sale of any of its products with a known safety defect. What do you think the jury award would be? Erin Andrews was recently awarded $75 million just because somebody took pictures of her undressing.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Correct, BMW hasn't develop a trade in assistance plan yet for its dealers.


Maybe they will start doing that if the others all start following Honda's example. This Takata airbag mess is going to cost all of the 14, or more, manufacturers who used Takata airbags a whole lot of money. They will definitely do it if Mercedes does it.

BMW reported today that their EBIT improved to 9.6% of sales, up from 8.2% a year ago but the market didn't like the rest of what they said. They said they expected only "a slight increase in deliveries" this year. Their target range for EBIT is 8-10% and they have managed to stay within that range over the past several years.

My expectation is that they will come in third in the U.S. this year behind Lexus and Mercedes and either second or third in the world, behind Mercedes and Audi. They could beat Audi if Dieselgate begins to impact Audi more than it has so far.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-5-2-amid-fight-for-no-1-in-luxury-car-market


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Is there any news what model/year the additional 70 to 90 million inflators can affect? This surely is a black swan event for the lease buyout strategists!


----------



## analogue (May 3, 2005)

Yeah this is going to get interesting, and probably put a bunch of money in lawyer pockets.

If you own/finance one of these cars, you have to keep it until the recall fix, or try to sell it privately.

If you are in a lease, you will be turning in your car. For most, this will be no big deal and you just move into a new lease. However, if you wanted to buyout because you have equity above the residual, then you have a legal argument. My guess is BMWFS will need to assist with some cash to make it right and start waiving disposition fees.

What I'm most curious about is the market value of these cars. The biggest supplier of them to the market (BMWFS and the dealers) cannot sell them, so you would think the private sale values might actually go up. Can BMWFS sell them at auction to sneak them into the market instead of sitting on this inventory for months? I don't know.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Is there any news what model/year the additional 70 to 90 million inflators can affect? This surely is a black swan event for the lease buyout strategists!


That estimate, which has not yet been approved for recall, probably covers every Takata airbag installed in the U.S. in the past couple of decades, or whatever. Just remember that there are 14 auto manufacturers involved, Honda being the biggest because they used Takata airbags more than any other manufacturer. The German big three all used Takata airbags but I don't think Takata was their only source. BMW always likes to have more than one source. That came in handy back when the earthquake and tsunami hit Japan a few years ago. BMW simply switched their orders for certain electronic equipment from Japan to their American supplier.

The total cost of this Takata fiasco is going to be in the billions of dollars if we're talking about well over 100 million units. Already there are 30 million recalled Takata airbags in the U.S. plus another 30 million in the rest of the world, mainly Japan. Why is that? Probably because Japan is the most proactive in issuing recall orders. What about Takata airbags in all those other countries? I guess it's up to those countries to order recalls unless Takata is voluntarily issuing recalls of all of the airbags they produced with ammonium nitrate inflator propellant and I doubt that because they haven't done that in the U.S.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> That estimate, which has not yet been approved for recall, probably covers every Takata airbag installed in the U.S. in the past couple of decades, or whatever. Just remember that there are 14 auto manufacturers involved, Honda being the biggest because they used Takata airbags more than any other manufacturer. The German big three all used Takata airbags but I don't think Takata was their only source. BMW always likes to have more than one source. That came in handy back when the earthquake and tsunami hit Japan a few years ago. BMW simply switched their orders for certain electronic equipment from Japan to their American supplier.
> 
> The total cost of this Takata fiasco is going to be in the billions of dollars if we're talking about well over 100 million units. Already there are 30 million recalled Takata airbags in the U.S. plus another 30 million in the rest of the world, mainly Japan. Why is that? Probably because Japan is the most proactive in issuing recall orders. What about Takata airbags in all those other countries? I guess it's up to those countries to order recalls unless Takata is voluntarily issuing recalls of all of the airbags they produced with ammonium nitrate inflator propellant and I doubt that because they haven't done that in the U.S.


The scale of this issue can be huge, e.g. if all BMW cars that have Takata need to be fixed and BMW only will use its own airbag design that is 2 years away, then that pretty much kills the CPO/used-car business at dealerships. The private sale should still be OK given those are not regulated, even if there is a pending NHTSA safety recall.


----------



## Z4luvr (Jun 23, 2006)

Summary:

BMW sells you a car with defective airbag (They didn't know it at the time. OK, it was their subcontractor, but its their car that they sold to a consumer)

Car is subject to recall

Manufacturer cannot timely repair defect and offers no reasonable time table (Blames bankrupt contractor, but they still should have liability)

Consumer is unable to sell car because of open recall due to defect. In fact, manufacturer itself refuses to purchase cars with open defect.

Tell me again how the consumer should take it in the shorts for this rather than the manufacturer?

No wonder product liability attorneys everywhere are frothing at the mouth.

I plan on selling my 2011 Z4 in the fall. Maybe its time to figure out which class action lawsuit team to join.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> I confirmed with several dealers in NJ they told me is a mandate from corporate and it is nationwide.
> 
> View attachment 554096


What you attached is "not a mandate from corporate" to not take in one of those cars that have an open airbag recall. It is a mandate to not sell that particular car that is the subject of that notice.

Based on conversation this morning with someone who should know, the dealers are getting only limited assistance from BMWNA to cover their costs of storage, carrying costs and depreciation of the used cars they already have in stock that they cannot sell by law. Those cars they are stuck with because they had them in stock when the recall notice went out.

Cars that are coming off lease that are subject to this airbag recall are BMWNA's problem. If they work out something with the dealers to entice the dealers to hold onto those cars, then that's a different issue. There is absolutely no way, at present, for the dealer to sell you the car you have been driving on your BMWFS lease once you have made all the payments and would like to exercise your purchase option for the full residual price, should you actually think that's a good idea. BMWNA did issue an order to all their dealers prohibiting the sale of such cars.

They're not even sure if they can extend the lease but that might be an option if they can get clearance from legal. Maybe they can sell you the car if you sign a waiver? They don't know that yet but they're asking their legal department to figure that out. I seriously doubt that you will get any pull-ahead offers on any of those cars.

As far as the statement from several dealers in New Jersey that they received a mandate from BMWNA prohibiting them from taking in one of those cars as a trade-in, I don't believe that is correct. What I am saying is that if the dealer is dumb enough and desperate enough to make the new car sale that he would take in a car that he knows he cannot sell and that he must store indefinitely, then that's up to him. I can't imagine any of them being that dumb, especially if they aren't receiving any assistance from the factory except on their previously existing inventory of such cars.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

analogue said:


> Can BMWFS sell them at auction to sneak them into the market instead of sitting on this inventory for months? I don't know.


Do not sell means do not sell.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> They're not even sure if they can extend the lease but that might be an option if they can get clearance from legal.


The latest info I have that is not confidential is all affected customers are currently eligible for a 1-2 month lease extension even _without_ a new car on order. Customers with a production number are eligible for a 6 month extension.

And they are promising support. That's open ended by intent, I'm sure, to remain flexible.

But should you want, you can extend the current lease.

Michael


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

analogue said:


> Yeah this is going to get interesting, and probably put a bunch of money in lawyer pockets.
> 
> If you own/finance one of these cars, you have to keep it until the recall fix, or try to sell it privately.
> 
> ...


They won't be doing that either as all the other brand dealers are following suit and not taking any trades or sales of the BMW affected cars under the recall. BMW told all dealer networks that by selling or taking in a trade in and selling it later they are accepting 100% liability in case of death or injury. So even if we sell privately we are still basically ****ed. Right before the stop sale I had my car appraised at BMW Tenafly and they told me all they could offer was 14k when the car is actually worth $25k on manhein and kbb. So as word spreads even the auctions will prohibit selling these cars as they don't want to share liability.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Z4luvr said:


> No wonder product liability attorneys everywhere are frothing at the mouth.
> 
> I plan on selling my 2011 Z4 in the fall. Maybe its time to figure out which class action lawsuit team to join.


The lawyers will name everybody and their brother in the class-action lawsuit. They always do. Then the lawyers will keep more of the settlement than the class, especially if we're talking about 120 million in the U.S. alone.

I have no clue how something like this will work out. We're talking about airbags that may or may not be defective. As far as I know there has been only one or maybe two deaths of the 10 so far in the U.S. that are not in a hot humid part of the country. If there are 120 million defective airbags and so far there are only 10 confirmed deaths, then your chances of being killed by a defective airbag are 12 million to 1 because most of you won't be involved in a serious enough accident for that to matter. I don't know what your odds are calculated on just if you're involved in a frontal collision but they would be less than 12 million to 1. Obviously there were other victims who survived their defective airbags. In most of the reported deaths, the victim may have died from other injuries but in some of them they would have survived but for the shrapnel from the airbag inflator.

I guess the lawyers have to find out exactly how many millions of airbags Takata produced over the years with stable ammonium nitrate as the inflator propellant. The U.S. is talking about a total of 120 million and that's just in the U.S. So how many worldwide? Two hundred million? Three hundred million?

If you ask for $1,000 per defective airbag sold, that's $3,000,000,000,000 ($3 trillion) if you assume 300 million defective airbags sold. Lots of luck with that idea.



P.S. -- Don't forget that Takata knew about this problem more than a decade ago. They destroyed the test results that proved the failure rate was too high. The U.S. investigators already have testimony from two independent sources who were firsthand witnesses to this. They also knew years ago that one of their plant in Mexico was sending inflator modules that should have been rejected by Quality Control but weren't. That's because the workers were under pressure to put out x-number of units per hour to meet their quotas. And their wages still sucked! That's a separate issue on top of the fact that stable ammonium nitrate, while being the cheapest option, degrades over time in hot humid climates, and that's why the other airbag manufacturers have avoided it in favor of more expensive alternatives.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> The latest info I have that is not confidential is all affected customers are currently eligible for a 1-2 month lease extension even _without_ a new car on order. Customers with a production number are eligible for a 6 month extension.
> 
> And they are promising support. That's open ended by intent, I'm sure, to remain flexible.
> 
> ...


A one- to two-month extension is practically nothing. The customer should simply turn in the car at the end of the lease an walk away from the lease. He can still do that even if he has a car on order, but in that case he can continue driving it for up to six months while waiting for his new car to come in. Customers who are leasing one of those cars do not have a problem at all because they won't take any loss, BMW will. They drop off the car at the end of the lease and be done with it. Paying whatever, if anything, they may owe in excess wear and tear.

It's the customers who own one outright or who are on a finance contract that are screwed. Their car is worth a lot less because it can't be resold until the repairs are done and there are no parts available to perform those repairs. The BMW dealer can still take one of those in trade if he is dumb enough and desperate enough for the new car sale, but he won't be able to resell it and BMW won't provide assistance on it unless they alter their present crappy dealer support.

Oh, well... Everybody should just keep in mind that BMW is just one of 14 manufacturers who are affected by this Takata airbag recall fiasco.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

I guess the U.S. lawyers will only sue in the U.S. courts for Takata airbags in this country, so that's only 120 million, on the high end, so at $1,000 each, we're talking about only $1.2 trillion, a much more manageable number.


----------



## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

Ninong said:


> One more point: I guess you realize that BMW is just one of a dozen different automobile manufacturers who use Takata airbags, right? Among the others who use Takata airbags: Mercedes and Audi. I'm not sure about Porsche but probably them, too. Plus virtually all of the large Japanese brands.


I think you misunderstand my comment. I meant I can understand say an Audi or Ford dealer not wanting to take in a BMW trade with this issue, but for BMW themselves to refuse to take these just strengthens the plaintiff's case for diminished value.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> The latest info I have that is not confidential is all affected customers are currently eligible for a 1-2 month lease extension even _without_ a new car on order. Customers with a production number are eligible for a 6 month extension.
> 
> And they are promising support. That's open ended by intent, I'm sure, to remain flexible.
> 
> ...


Couple months extension is what I had when I call BMWFS few days ago, but can they keep extending after couple months is my main questions. I really want to buy out my M3 but it seems like there is no way to get around this after lease...for now...


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The private sale should still be OK given those are not regulated, even if there is a pending NHTSA safety recall.


If the prospective buyer is a savvy shopper and runs the VIN for open recalls, then he may not be interested because even if he's willing to take his chances driving a car like that he should know that its fair market value is reduced substantially unless the recall repair is performed. If an owner of a car with a Takata airbag that has an open recall sells that car, knowing it has an open airbag recall, to another person and that person is involved in a serious accident and suffers injuries or death caused by shrapnel from the defective airbag, I can guarantee you that the owner who sold him that car while being aware of that defect will get named in a lawsuit should that person have assets at risk making it worthwhile for an attorney to sue him.

Our local TV news channel is constantly talking about recalled automobiles and telling people how to check their own cars for an open recall notice by running the VIN. That came up a couple of times earlier this year.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Weaselboy said:


> I think you misunderstand my comment. I meant I can understand say an Audi or Ford dealer not wanting to take in a BMW trade with this issue, but for BMW themselves to refuse to take these just strengthens the plaintiff's case for diminished value.


Of course it does but that's where it stands right now. If the BMW dealer wants to take in a car that he cannot resell for maybe another couple of years, that's his business. Would you do that if you were a dealer? He can do it if he wants but that looks like a losing proposition to me unless he takes it in for at least a 40% discount to its previous fair market value.

One thing that the dealer cannot do and that's sell one of those cars that have an open Takata airbag recall. Nothing stops him from taking one in should he be that dumb.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

****This is a comment from a BMW lessee, not a BMW Dealer Rep****

My lease contract Section 30 states lessees have the option to purchase the Vehicle AS-IS, WHERE-IS. Makes me wonder if the legal team is looking at liability as it relates to this clause.

I just don't know the answer.

There is no winner in ANY of this, unfortunately. But I appreciate that BMW is conducting due diligence to do it as right as it can be in the short run.

Michael


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> I really want to buy out my M3 but it seems like there is no way to get around this after lease...for now...


They would love to sell you your M3 at the end of your lease and they're working on that with their legal department. They hope to find a way to sell it to you if you sign a waiver acknowledging that you know there is an open Takata airbag recall and that the parts to perform that recall work may not be available for an unknown number of months. So far they do not permission from their legal department to do that.

As it stands right now, they will be forced to take back your M3 but they won't be allowed to sell it. They will have to put it in storage until after it is fixed. Then you might be able to buy it. They didn't cause this mess, Takata did and they did it knowingly! In fact, they have known about this problem for more than a decade now and they deliberately covered it up.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> ****This is a comment from a BMW lessee, not a BMW Dealer Rep****
> 
> My lease contract Section 30 states lessees have the option to purchase the Vehicle AS-IS, WHERE-IS. Makes me wonder if the legal team is looking at liability as it relates to this clause.
> 
> ...


That's nice except that there is also a law prohibiting dealers from selling a car with an open safety recall notice.

And they don't have the option to "purchase the Vehicle AS-IS, WHERE IS" in California because the dealer is required by state law to perform a safety inspection on it and , if applicable, a smog inspection, before it can be sold back to the lessee. The dealer is allowed by the terms of the lease to charge the lessee a nominal charge for that service and that would be added to the guaranteed residual value shown on the lease agreement.

I can't imagine anyone being interested in purchasing their vehicle for the guaranteed residual value knowing that its fair market value is considerably less than that if it has an open safety recall on it.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

BMW says 840,000 U.S. vehicles are involved.

Just checked my car, which I thought had made it through unscathed. Wrong answer.  My car was added to the list on February 5th.

Fortunately my car has never been in a High Absolute Humidity area. Here's the statement of how repairs will be prioritized:

"REMEDY:
Your BMW center will replace the driver's front air bag module. However, due to the large volume of new inflators needed to repair vehicles, the necessary parts will not be immediately available. As a result, owners of affected vehicles will be informed of the recall in an initial notification letter. *Once replacement parts become available BMW will send another notification letter to owners, beginning with older model year vehicles located in BMW's previously defined HAH (High Absolute Humidity) region and expanding accordingly as more parts become available.*"

From Consumer Reports on high humidity areas:

"According to NHTSA.....The Takata inflators seem to be vulnerable to persistent high humidity and high temperature conditions, such as in *Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, the Gulf Coast states, Hawaii, and island territories. *"


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tturedraider said:


> BMW says 840,000 U.S. vehicles are involved.
> 
> Just checked my car, which I thought had made it through unscathed. Wrong answer.  My car was added to the list on February 5th.


Thanks for posting such a detailed update on the situation. Sorry about your car being on the list. Hopefully you weren't planning to trade it in anytime soon?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> If the prospective buyer is a savvy shopper and runs the VIN for open recalls, then he may not be interested because even if he's willing to take his chances driving a car like that he should know that its fair market value is reduced substantially unless the recall repair is performed. If an owner of a car with a Takata airbag that has an open recall sells that car, knowing it has an open airbag recall, to another person and that person is involved in a serious accident and suffers injuries or death caused by shrapnel from the defective airbag, I can guarantee you that the owner who sold him that car while being aware of that defect will get named in a lawsuit should that person have assets at risk making it worthwhile for an attorney to sue him.
> 
> Our local TV news channel is constantly talking about recalled automobiles and telling people how to check their own cars for an open recall notice by running the VIN. That came up a couple of times earlier this year.


The recall can be disclosed on bill of sales so that is not a big issue. E.g. a few years back a coworker sold his F30 without yet completing the NHTSA barke recall and the buyer was OK with signing the bill of sales with the disclosure. The same cannot (yet) be done on CPO/used cars with the defective airbags at dealers due to BMW's mandate.

There are many cars of various brands on the road with the defective airbags, those will still be sold and bought regularly, obviously the prices can be affected, but still doable with sufficient disclosure.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> BMW says 840,000 U.S. vehicles are involved.
> 
> Just checked my car, which I thought had made it through unscathed. Wrong answer.  My car was added to the list on February 5th.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the updates, so at least those in CA can rest at ease somewhat.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

GM just issued a stop-sale order on new-model Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon pickup trucks and Chevrolet Malibu sedans in the U.S. and Canada because of potentially defective front airbags.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> There are many cars of various brands on the road with the defective airbags, those will still be sold and bought regularly, obviously the prices can be affected, but still doable with sufficient disclosure.


Yes, but I wonder what the fair market value will be, under the circumstances, with the buyer knowing that he won't be able to trade it in to a dealership until after the airbag is fixed.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Ninong said:


> Thanks for posting such a detailed update on the situation. Sorry about your car being on the list. Hopefully you weren't planning to trade it in anytime soon?


Not on the imminent horizon. At its current age and mileage I would probably sell privately.



namelessman said:


> The recall can be disclosed on bill of sales so that is not a big issue. E.g. a few years back a coworker sold his F30 without yet completing the NHTSA barke recall and the buyer was OK with signing the bill of sales with the disclosure. The same cannot (yet) be done on CPO/used cars with the defective airbags at dealers due to BMW's mandate.
> 
> There are many cars of various brands on the road with the defective airbags, those will still be sold and bought regularly, obviously the prices can be affected, but still doable with sufficient disclosure.


But, it's a big problem for dealers, because they are legally prohibited from selling used cars with open safety recalls.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Slightly off-topic but this is hilarious! :rofl:

Mercedes-Benz is honoring BMW's 100-Year Anniversary with a special invitation to all BMW employees. We warmly congratulate the globally renowned company BMW on its anniversary and offer all BMW AG employees free admission to the Mercedes-Benz Museum in Stuttgart. After presenting their employee ID card, the BMW visitors can educate themselves on the early beginnings on the modern-day car from the company that invented it -- thirty years before BMW even existed.

BMW employees will be allowed to park their BMWs directly outside the Mercedes-Benz Museum in Stuttgart free of charge for the entire week while Mercedes helps them celebrate their anniversary with an educational tour of the birthplace of the automobile.

That is the best ever!


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> More than 120,000 F3x's are part of the U.S. recall. That's going to be a significant problem for dealers.
> 
> But, it's a big problem for dealers, because they are legally prohibited from selling used cars with open safety recalls.


My VIN seems to be OK for now, yes this is a major issue for dealers, and those who want to trade-in or lease-buyout their F3x's.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Affected vehicle report from Autoblog
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/11/bmw-recall-takata-airbags/


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

namelessman said:


> My VIN seems to be OK for now, yes this is a major issue for dealers, and those who want to trade-in or lease-buyout their F3x's.


I edited my post. I was incorrect about the F3x's. It looks like none of them are involved.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> Affected vehicle report from Autoblog
> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/11/bmw-recall-takata-airbags/


Got it, the text description of the article and the lists at the end are inconsistent, but the list does not include F3x:

Model Model Years Approx. Vol. Production Dates

1 Series Coupe (incl. 1M) 2008 ***8211; 2013 32,620 Nov 2007 ***8211; Oct 2013
1 Series Convertible 2008 ***8211; 2013 28,160 Nov 2007 ***8211; Oct 2013
3 Series Sedan (incl. M3) 2006 ***8211; 2011 132,845 Feb 2005 ***8211; Dec 2011
335d Sedan 2009 ***8211; 2011 4,160 Mar 2008 ***8211; Aug 2011
3 Series Sports Wagon 2006 ***8211; 2012 3,270 Jun 2005 ***8211; May 2012
3 Series Coupe (incl. M3) 2007 ***8211; 2013 129,515 Apr 2006 ***8211; Jun 2013
3 Series Convertible (incl. M3) 2007 ***8211; 2013 99,810 Nov 2006 ***8211; Oct 2013
X1 SAV 2013 ***8211; 2015 57,290 Feb 2012 ***8211; Sep 2014
X3 SAV 2007 ***8211; 2010 64,925 Aug 2006 ***8211; Aug 2010
X5 SAV (incl. X5 M) 2007 ***8211; 2013 214,580 Sep 2006 ***8211; Jun 2013
X5 xDrive35d SAV 2009 ***8211; 2013 35,440 Mar 2008 ***8211; Jun 2013
X6 SAV (incl. X6 M) 2008 ***8211; 2014 37,000 Jul 2007 ***8211; Jun 2014
X6 SAV ActiveHybrid 2010 ***8211; 2011 365 Mar 2009 ***8211; Sep 2011


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> I edited my post. I was incorrect about the F3x's. It looks like none of them are involved.


Oops, this would have been a great opportunity to upgrade steering wheels, as BMW is paying for the new airbags anyway.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Ninong said:


> Slightly off-topic but this is hilarious! :rofl:
> 
> Mercedes-Benz is honoring BMW's 100-Year Anniversary with a special invitation to all BMW employees. We warmly congratulate the globally renowned company BMW on its anniversary and offer all BMW AG employees free admission to the Mercedes-Benz Museum in Stuttgart. After presenting their employee ID card, the BMW visitors can educate themselves on the early beginnings on the modern-day car from the company that invented it -- thirty years before BMW even existed.
> 
> ...


haha....that is funny....mostly. Thirty extra years to work on it for Merc and yet BMW has built so many more cars that are fun to drive than Mercedes ever has. :bigpimp:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tturedraider said:


> haha....that is funny....mostly. Thirty extra years to work on it for Merc and yet BMW has built so many more cars that are fun to drive than Mercedes ever has. :bigpimp:


Yes, and BMW was Number One in the World for the past 11 years in a row and Number One in the U.S. four out of the past five years. :roundel:

And they stole both of those titles in 2015 and that was really hilarious! :thumbup:


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

I updated the first post with the latest information. It is up to the BMW dealership if they want to take a trade in and BMW is offering trade in support for dealers taking trades on vehicles that are affected.

Tim


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Thanks for the brand new update, Tim. 

By the way, I just googled to see how the other German manufacturers are being affected just in the U.S. We already know that BMW has a total of 840,000 cars in the U.S. that they intend to voluntarily recall. According to an Automotive New article from last month, Daimler has 705,000 Mercedes-Benz cars and 136,000 Daimler vans. VW has 680,000 vehicles and Audi has 170,000.

Just in case anyone was thinking that this problem is unique to BMW.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

tim330i said:


> I updated the first post with the latest information. It is up to the BMW dealership if they want to take a trade in and BMW is offering trade in support for dealers taking trades on vehicles that are affected.
> 
> Tim


Given the mess this creates that seems to me like a pretty accommodating plan. I'm pretty impressed.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Thanks for the brand new update, Tim.
> 
> By the way, I just googled to see how the other German manufacturers are being affected just in the U.S. We already know that BMW has a total of 840,000 cars in the U.S. that they intend to voluntarily recall. According to an Automotive New article from last month, Daimler has 705,000 Mercedes-Benz cars and 136,000 Daimler vans. VW has 680,000 vehicles and Audi has 170,000.
> 
> Just in case anyone was thinking that this problem is unique to BMW.


Where will 840k bimmers be stored for 2 years before BMW completes its airbag redesign? Are VW/Audi/MB also going with their own designs?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> Given the mess this creates that seems to me like a pretty accommodating plan. I'm pretty impressed.


This means 840k BMW's will be removed from the used car market. Maybe the F30's now will have improved resale value and hence no more buyout discount. 

BTW does anyone know how is the new airbag design different from the recalled ones?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Where will 840k bimmers be stored for 2 years before BMW completes its airbag redesign? Are VW/Audi/MB also going with their own designs?


They didn't say anything about taking in those 840,000 BMWs. They just said that's the total number of BMWs they intend to send out recall notices on. The letter, which is on here somewhere, informs the customer that he will receive a second notice when they have the replacement parts available to fix his airbag. That's the same sort of letter they're all sending out. That second letter could be more than two years from now.

Maybe what you mean is what would happen if all 840,000 owners suddenly decided to show up at their nearest BMW Center and attempt to trade in their cars on a new BMW?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> This means 840k BMW's will be removed from the used car market. Maybe the F30's now will have improved resale value and hence no more buyout discount.


They're not being removed from the market at all. They're just subject to BMW's voluntary recall notification.



> BTW does anyone know how is the new airbag design different from the recalled ones?


Well, for starters, I seriously doubt that BMW will want stable ammonium nitrate as the inflator propellant. Only Takata was using that. All of the other airbag manufacturers used a more expensive alternative propellant. Unfortunately they're all swamped with new business right now and are ramping up new capacity as fast as they possibly can. I would imagine that the need for more than 100 million replacement airbag inflator modules would have a significant impact on the market without even counting the fact that I would imagine that many of Takata's former customers are shopping for alternatives right now. Takata was the largest airbag manufacturer in the world.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tturedraider said:


> Given the mess this creates that seems to me like a pretty accommodating plan. I'm pretty impressed.


All of the auto manufacturers who used Takata airbags are screwed because they have to do the necessary repair work at their own expense and then bill Takata later for reimbursement but Takata doesn't have the financial ability to pay those claims.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Where will 840k bimmers be stored for 2 years before BMW completes its airbag redesign? Are VW/Audi/MB also going with their own designs?


Go back to the Opening Post in this thread: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901176

Tim posted an update that he received from BMWNA sometime this afternoon because some of that was not published policy as of late this morning. According to those published guidelines, BMWNA intends to mail out recall notification letters starting March 14 and ending before April 14. In effect those letters will inform the customer that BMW has decided to replace the airbag inflator(s) in his vehicle but that replacement parts are not presently available. They inform him that he will receive a second letter once the replacement parts are available.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Maybe what you mean is what would happen if all 840,000 owners suddenly decided to show up at their nearest BMW Center and attempt to trade in their cars on a new BMW?


The BMW trade assistance policy does not preclude this scenario, does it?


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Ninong said:


> All of the auto manufacturers who used Takata airbags are screwed because they have to do the necessary repair work at their own expense and then bill Takata later for reimbursement but Takata doesn't have the financial ability to pay those claims.


Yeah, I don't see how Takata will survive this, because as this thread demonstrates it's much more than just replacing the inflators.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The BMW trade assistance policy does not preclude this scenario, does it?


Are you sure about that? The only thing it says in the information Tim posted was that dealers who chose to take in one of these cars in trade would receive floor plan and depreciation allowances. If it's anything close to the floor plan and depreciation allowances they are currently receiving on the ones they are already stuck with then I seriously doubt many people will be trading in any of those cars anytime soon.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Are you sure about that? The only thing it says in the information Tim posted was that dealers who chose to take in one of these cars in trade would receive floor plan and depreciation allowances. If it's anything close to the floor plan and depreciation allowances they are currently receiving on the ones they are already stuck with then I seriously doubt many people will be trading in any of those cars anytime soon.


At a minimum any lease return of affected vehicles should fall under trade-in assistance package(with covers both trade and lease return), as the dealers have no choice not to take in lease returns, right? It can be true that lease returns constitute a relatively small number among the 840k affected vehicles. As far as trade-in cars, dealers have choices to take in or not, but if dealers choose not to take the trade the new car purchase/lease deals may not happen.

Regardless none of those affected can be sold per BMW mandate, hence the unaffected models(e.g. F30) will become more in demand as those are the ones that dealers(and customers) will seek.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

namelessman said:


> At a minimum any lease return of affected vehicles should fall under trade-in assistance package(with covers both trade and lease return), as the dealers have no choice not to take in lease returns, right? It can be true that lease returns constitute a relatively small number among the 840k affected vehicles. As far as trade-in cars, dealers have choices to take in or not, but if dealers choose not to take the trade the new car purchase/lease deals may not happen.
> 
> Regardless none of those affected can be sold per BMW mandate, hence the unaffected models(e.g. F30) will become more in demand as those are the ones that dealers(and customers) will seek.


Dealers have to act as BMWFS's "agent" in taking lease returns. But they don't have to keep them. If they don't want them BMWFS/Re-marketing has to come pick them up.

There used to be a program called Full Circle dealers, where they had to keep a certain percentage of off lease returns, but I haven't seen anything referring to that in quite sometime. I wonder if it still exists. I think it did require that dealers keep lease returns that they initially sold. Not certain of that.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> Dealers have to act as BMWFS's "agent" in taking lease returns. But they don't have to keep them. If they don't want them BMWFS/Re-marketing has to come pick them up.
> 
> There used to be a program called Full Circle dealers, where they had to keep a certain percentage of off lease returns, but I haven't seen anything referring to that in quite sometime. I wonder if it still exists. I think it did require that dealers keep lease returns that they initially sold. Not certain of that.


So BMWFS will need to find storage of these lease returns then, and effectively taking them off the used car market for now. Regardless who keep these recalled cars, the flows of CPO/used cars through the dealers(and hence profits) can be impeded, and in turn the new car market can be affected too.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> At a minimum any lease return of affected vehicles should fall under trade-in assistance package(with covers both trade and lease return), as the dealers have no choice not to take in lease returns, right?


The dealers have absolutely no responsibility for BMW's lease returns other than accepting them from the lessee as an authorized drop-off point for BMWFS. The lessee can drop off his leased BMW at the expiration of the lease at any one of BMW's 339 dealerships around the country but it's best to call ahead for an appointment. The dealership will notify BMWFS that one of their vehicles has been turned in and is ready for them to do with as they please.

The owner of the leased vehicle is BMW Financial Services. It's their problem.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> So BMWFS will need to find storage of these lease returns then, and effectively taking them off the used car market for now. Regardless who keep these recalled cars, the flows of CPO/used cars through the dealers(and hence profits) can be impeded, and in turn the new car market can be affected too.


First of all, they're not coming back until the normal expiration of the lease. I seriously doubt that many customers will suddenly want to stop driving their cars when there are allegedly more than 100 million potentially defective Takata airbags still on the road today in the U.S. alone. You have a much greater chance of being killed crossing the street than you do of being killed by a defective Takata airbag. Not all of them malfunction in an accident. In fact, the failure rate is very, very low but still unacceptable by federal safety standards.

This is a much less serious problem than other safety issues involving cars. It's just getting more publicity right now in the automotive press because of the scope of the problem. Don't forget that BMW has not received any official recall notices as far as I know. This is a voluntary recall on the part of BMW because they want to be proactive. They don't want to wait until a crashed BMW is pictured on the evening news with a caption reading BMW driver killed by defective airbag. There have been no reported fatalities caused by airbag malfunction in any BMWs anywhere around the world, so far, but BMW doesn't want to wait like Honda did until there are several such reported cases.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

I have two new BMW's on order - does this mean I'm absolutely hosed on the value of my existing BMW's?

Sign me up for a class action suit and this will also be my last BMW purchase.


----------



## alex2364 (May 8, 2006)

Face128i said:


> I have two new BMW's on order - does this mean I'm absolutely hosed on the value of my existing BMW's?
> 
> Sign me up for a class action suit and this will also be my last BMW purchase.


Class action on a car you don't even own yet? :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> I have two new BMW's on order - does this mean I'm absolutely hosed on the value of my existing BMW's?
> 
> Sign me up for a class action suit and this will also be my last BMW purchase.


What will you be switching to next time? Ford, Chevy?


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

WOW!
What this is going to do to the used car market, new car market, auto financing market, car prices, some decimated, others going way up. For now at least our D isn't on the list, and I sure hope it stays that way.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

alex2364 said:


> Class action on a car you don't even own yet? :rofl::rofl::rofl:


No I currently own two BMW's. I've got two BMW's on order (European Delivery) that will replace the current BMW's. Both of them are caught up in the recall and I'm basically at an impasse due to diminished value.

I bring up the class action because I'm supposed to be OK with losing upwards of 10,000 or having two vehicles titled/insured and not drivable?

No likely not Ford or Chevy - but any manufacturer that doesn't financially screw repeat customers.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

*Let's start a list of our own?*

Number of confirmed deaths from Takata airbag failures: 10
Number of confirmed deaths from GM ignition switch failures: 124
http://fortune.com/2015/08/24/feinberg-gm-faulty-ignition-switch/

Number of years Takata concealed the truth: 10+
Number of years GM concealed the truth: 10+

Number of BMWs named in official recall notices: *ZERO!*
Number of fatalities due to Takata airbag failures in BMWs: *ZERO!*

Number of BMWs in the U.S. subject to BMW's *voluntary* recall: 840,000
Number of Mercedes-Benz cars in the U.S. with the same problem: 705,000
Number of Daimler vans in the U.S. with the same problem: 136,000
Number of VWs in the U.S. with the same problem: 680,000
Number of Audis in the U.S. with the same problem: 170,000

BMW has decided to issue a voluntary recall because they value the safety of their customers over profits. There is no expectation that they will ever be able to be reimbursed for any of this expense by Takata because Takata is in bankruptcy discussions with the legal counsel now.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Ninong said:


> *Let's start a list of our own?*
> 
> Number of confirmed deaths from Takata airbag failures: 10
> Number of confirmed deaths from GM ignition switch failures: 124
> ...


Ninong - I agree safety first. But what am I supposed to do with my existing vehicles? I really don't want to own four BMW's - two of which I won't be able to sell anytime soon.

I've emailed BMW customer service and my CA - will see what they say.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> First of all, they're not coming back until the normal expiration of the lease. I seriously doubt that many customers will suddenly want to stop driving their cars when there are allegedly more than 100 million potentially defective Takata airbags still on the road today in the U.S. alone. You have a much greater chance of being killed crossing the street than you do of being killed by a defective Takata airbag. Not all of them malfunction in an accident. In fact, the failure rate is very, very low but still unacceptable by federal safety standards.
> 
> This is a much less serious problem than other safety issues involving cars. It's just getting more publicity right now in the automotive press because of the scope of the problem. Don't forget that BMW has not received any official recall notices as far as I know. This is a voluntary recall on the part of BMW because they want to be proactive. They don't want to wait until a crashed BMW is pictured on the evening news with a caption reading BMW driver killed by defective airbag. There have been no reported fatalities caused by airbag malfunction in any BMWs anywhere around the world, so far, but BMW doesn't want to wait like Honda did until there are several such reported cases.


Just the normal expiration of the lease still creates a constant stream of recalled vehicles heading back to the dealers/BMWFS, and storage is needed for those vehicles.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Face128i said:


> Ninong - I agree safety first. But what am I supposed to do with my existing vehicles? I really don't want to own four BMW's - two of which I won't be able to sell anytime soon.
> 
> I've emailed BMW customer service and my CA - will see what they say.


From post#1 it would seem the trade assistance package to dealers can help the dealers with the trade, although it is unlikely/unclear such assistance help with the trade values. Also the dealers can refuse to accept the trades as the assistance package is only based on dealer participation. My take is if the dealers do not take, or low-ball, the trades, then my preference will be to cancel the new car deals.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> *Let's start a list of our own?*
> 
> Number of confirmed deaths from Takata airbag failures: 10
> Number of confirmed deaths from GM ignition switch failures: 124
> ...


Issuing the voluntary recall is a necessary and proactive step for the automakers to alleviate negligence claims.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> *Let's start a list of our own?*
> 
> Number of confirmed deaths from Takata airbag failures: 10
> Number of confirmed deaths from GM ignition switch failures: 124
> ...


Stop comparing apple to oranges, the GM ignition recall was limited to only the brands under the GM label. The Takata recall airbag recall involves 14 major auto manufacturers and over 130 million cars world wide.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

namelessman said:


> From post#1 it would seem the trade assistance package to dealers can help the dealers with the trade, although it is unlikely/unclear such assistance help with the trade values. Also the dealers can refuse to accept the trades as the assistance package is only based on dealer participation. My take is if the dealers do not take, or low-ball, the trades, then my preference will be to cancel the new car deals.


Canceling is going to be difficult as we've already made plans in Europe.

I am going to likely push them to cancel one of the orders, we will still pick up one in Europe. I've potentially got a buyer lined up for my car and also not as worried about the valuation because if it drops too low I'll just keep it. More concerned about the trade-in value of my wife's car as it is newer and lower mileage.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Just the normal expiration of the lease still creates a constant stream of recalled vehicles heading back to the dealers/BMWFS, and storage is needed for those vehicles.


BMW probably has a lot of storage space, somewhere. Ask them. :angel:

I just can't see the dealers being all that excited about keeping used BMWs that can't be sold indefinitely. Just sitting there taking up space, needing to be washed regularly, getting weathered (if they're outdoors), while waiting for BMW to get their own airbag inflator module factory up and running. Or however they intend to do it.

I really don't know what they intend to do with the cars coming off lease than can't be sold. But I know whose problem it is -- the owner's. And the owner is BMWFS.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Quatro40 said:


> Stop comparing apple to oranges, the GM ignition recall was limited to only the brands under the GM label. The Takata recall airbag recall involves 14 major auto manufacturers and over 130 million cars world wide.


How are other manufacturers responding to this mess? Are they still taking trades and selling their affected vehicles?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Stop comparing apple to oranges, the GM ignition recall was limited to only the brands under the GM label. The Takata recall airbag recall involves 14 major auto manufacturers and over 130 million cars world wide.


And so far there have been 10 confirmed fatalities out of those 100 million or more vehicles with potentially defective Takata airbags vs. 124 confirmed fatalities out of the much smaller number of GM vehicles with defective ignition switches.

Both Takata and GM concealed the truth from the public and the authorities for years but GM received a relative slap on the wrist from regulators: $900 million fine.

I'm not arguing that GM should have been fined more because I don't think it would have provided any benefit to the American public. After all, GM was one of the companies saved from going under by us, the taxpayers, which was a good think in my opinion.

I don't know what should be done about Takata. I know that they deliberately destroyed test results from several years back that confirmed the problem. They're about to file for bankruptcy protection. The extent of the financial damages they have caused to the auto manufacturers who used their products is beyond measure.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Face128i said:


> How are other manufacturers responding to this mess? Are they still taking trades and selling their affected vehicles?


Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes have halted are trade ins and sale of affected cars on their dealers lots and out of network dealers. That means the Nissan dealer can't sell you a BMW that is affected by the recall and vice versa. The auto manufacturers told the dealers that if they sell any of the cars under the recall they are accepting the transfer of 100% liability from manufacturer to dealer.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> And so far there have been 10 confirmed fatalities out of those 100 million or more vehicles with potentially defective Takata airbags vs. 124 confirmed fatalities out of the much smaller number of GM vehicles with defective ignition switches.
> 
> Both Takata and GM concealed the truth from the public and the authorities for years but GM received a relative slap on the wrist from regulators: $900 million fine.
> 
> ...


Correct!:thumbup:


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Quatro40 said:


> Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes have halted are trade ins and sale of affected cars on their dealers lots and out of network dealers. That means the Nissan dealer can't sell you a BMW that is affected by the recall and vice versa. The auto manufacturers told the dealers that if they sell any of the cars under the recall they are accepting the transfer of 100% liability from manufacturer to dealer.


Good information - Thanks.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Just to clarify, BMW has not told dealers *not to take affected cars in on trade*. It is being handled on a case-by-case basic at the dealer level.

~Michael


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

It appears that some dealers are choosing to ignore the stop sale mandate. I found the following vehicles for sale locally all have an outstanding recall campaign:
2013 128i - BMW of Dallas (Autonation)
2013 328i - BMW of Dallas


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Just to clarify, BMW has not told dealers *not to take affected cars in on trade*. It is being handled on a case-by-case basic at the dealer level.
> 
> ~Michael


How is this not collusion under the Sherman Act?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Which part, the not selling cars or the taking in trades on a case by case basis?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> It appears that some dealers are choosing to ignore the stop sale mandate. I found the following vehicles for sale locally all have an outstanding recall campaign:
> 2013 128i - BMW of Dallas (Autonation)
> 2013 328i - BMW of Dallas


If they choose to ignore the stop-sale order from BMWNA they agree to accept 100% liability in the event of an airbag failure resulting in injuries or death. Maybe those dealers have decided to accept that risk?


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Which part, the not selling cars or the taking in trades on a case by case basis?


The whole thing. How can they partner with other manufacturers (as stated earlier in this thread) to remove the possibility of selling a car through their channels?

I'm no attorney but it sounds an awful lot like price-fixing.



> Identifying Price-Fixing Activities: Price fixing generally involves any a*greement between competitors to tamper with prices or price levels, or terms and conditions of sale* (e.g., interest rates for consumer credit), for commodities or services. Generally speaking, price fixing involves an agreement by two or more competing producers of a specific commodity, or competing providers of a particular service, in a defined geographic area, to raise, set or maintain prices for their goods or services. It may take place at either the wholesale or retail level and, although it need not involve every competitor in a particular market, it usually involves most of the competitors in the particular market.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

If the dealer chooses to take in one of the affected cars on trade, then BMW agrees to provide him with certain flooring assistance and depreciation assistance. Many dealers may decide that this assistance is not sufficient to entice them to take in one of those cars on trade unless they are making a killer deal on the sale of the new car.

BMWNA is limited by law in what they can tell their independent franchised dealers to do, especially when it comes to selling prices or trade-in values -- considered part of the selling price transaction. On the other hand, if BMW wants to offer a guaranteed purchase price formula for each of those trade-ins and have them immediately trucked off to some warehouse in Arizona, then I'm sure the dealers would be all ears.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm certainly no Anti-trust lawyer (phew!), but this is less about price fixing and more about assumption of liability. NHTSA has determined it is a safety issue that the manufacturers must address. As the issue has trickled down, each person in the chain has to consult attorneys to see what their exposure is. 

Not a sales meeting goes by that doesn't include some discussion on the latest twist or turn.

~M~


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I'm certainly no Anti-trust lawyer (phew!), but this is less about price fixing and more about assumption of liability. NHTSA has determined it is a safety issue that the manufacturers must address. As the issue has trickled down, each person in the chain has to consult attorneys to see what their exposure is.
> 
> Not a sales meeting goes by that doesn't include some discussion on the latest twist or turn.
> 
> ~M~


Thanks Michael. I feel for you and the other dealerships. I'm no anti-trust lawyer either but in order to reduce their liability they are absolutely destroying the value of people's trade-in's (otherwise they wouldn't be providing depreciation and floor assistance). How is this not illegal?

If I would have known that the market for my vehicles would have been eviscerated by the stop-sale mandate I would have waited to order two new BMWs. Now I've got two new cars on order and no way to pay for them as I can't trade in my vehicles.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> The whole thing. How can they partner with other manufacturers (as stated earlier in this thread) to remove the possibility of selling a car through their channels?
> 
> I'm no attorney but it sounds an awful lot like price-fixing.


They're not partnering with anybody. The manufacturer can issue a safety-related stop-sale on his cars anytime he feels like it since he's the one who will be sued in the event of deaths or injuries caused by the safety defect that the manufacturer should have been aware of. In fact, in this case, the manufacturer is now aware that certain Takata airbags do have a risk of malfunctioning by spewing shrapnel into the occupants of the vehicle.

I don't think there is any way that the manufacturer can prevent the private sales of his cars but he can if they're in the hands of other auto dealers' franchised dealers. How they handle the financial transactions resulting from that stop-sale probably have to be negotiated. Does BMW have to buy them at a certain price or what? I don't know that. Maybe it's something that is negotiated between the manufacturers themselves?

Private parties can go right ahead and sell cars to other private parties even if they have open government ordered recalls but dealers can't do that if the recall is safety-related. I think the difference in this case is that this is a voluntary recall ordered by BMW before they received any official government order to do so.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Ninong said:


> They're not partnering with anybody. The manufacturer can issue a safety-related stop-sale on his cars anytime he feels like it since he's the one who will be sued in the event of deaths or injuries caused by the safety defect that the manufacturer should have been aware of. In fact, in this case, the manufacturer is now aware that certain Takata airbags do have a risk of malfunctioning by spewing shrapnel into the occupants of the vehicle.


Right - and their liability magically disappears because I am unable to sell the same said vehicle and continues to drive it?

Michael - is your dealership providing loaners to customers who don't want to drive their vehicles while it await parts? I assume this is going to be the easiest way to get the car fixed promptly so that it is available for sale.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> The whole thing. How can they partner with other manufacturers (as stated earlier in this thread) to remove the possibility of selling a car through their channels?
> 
> I'm no attorney but it sounds an awful lot like price-fixing.


It has nothing to do with price-fixing and everything to do with safety. I suspect that the NHTSA's mandates override any price-fixing concerns. The auto manufacturers are required to look out for the safety of their customers, even long after they have taken delivery, if they discover a safety-related defect in the car that could cause serious injuries or death. They do not have to wait for a government-mandated recall notice because those are usually issued only after results prove the existence of a problem. So far there have been no BMWs involved in Takata airbag failures that I have read about. Most of them are in Hondas. However, all Takata airbags have stable ammonium nitrate propellant and that's a problem, especially over time in hot humid climates.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> Right - and their liability magically disappears because I am unable to sell the same said vehicle and continues to drive it?
> 
> Michael - is your dealership providing loaners to customers who don't want to drive their vehicles while it await parts? I assume this is going to be the easiest way to get the car fixed promptly so that it is available for sale.


BMW is building a factory to make the replacement parts and they don't expect them for another two years. Or some version of that. Seriously.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Face128i said:


> Right - and their liability magically disappears because I am unable to sell the same said vehicle and continues to drive it?


Good question. Many festers(me included) will be interested in the answer to that.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Face128i said:


> Thanks Michael. I feel for you and the other dealerships. I'm no anti-trust lawyer either but in order to reduce their liability they are absolutely destroying the value of people's trade-in's (otherwise they wouldn't be providing depreciation and floor assistance). How is this not illegal?
> 
> If I would have known that the market for my vehicles would have been eviscerated by the stop-sale mandate I would have waited to order two new BMWs. Now I've got two new cars on order and no way to pay for them as I can't trade in my vehicles.


This indeed is a tricky situation. As for the planned trip, one option is to abandon the 2 ED's and still go on the trip, but have to resort to other means of transportation. This can be a great excuse to rent a 911 GT3(?) to get on Nürburg-Ring.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Good question. Many festers(me included) will be interested in the answer to that.


After you die in an accident and it can be proven that shrapnel from a defective Takata airbag inflator caused your death, then your estate can sue everybody. :thumbup:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> After you die in an accident and it can be proven that shrapnel from a defective Takata airbag inflator caused your death, then your estate can sue everybody. :thumbup:


That is a good point, on the F30's that are not recalled, are the airbags also Takata?!? This is very worrisome.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> That is a good point, on the F30's that are not recalled, are the airbags also Takata?!? This is very worrisome.


It's more complicated than that because apparently Takata used more than one type of inflator module. I'm not sure which manufacturers supply BMW other than Takata. I would have to search for that information.

In the meantime, here is a rundown provided by Consumer Reports for those who would like to know what's going on: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...now-about-the-takata-air-bag-recall/index.htm

This is more current and much more BMW-specific and contains valuable important information: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/11/bmw-recall-takata-airbags/


----------



## Z4luvr (Jun 23, 2006)

The upshot of this - used cars without Takata air bags should increase in value. With dealers able to buy and sell, them without this issue, what percentage increase might there be? 5-7% maybe?


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Face128i said:


> Right -* and their liability magically disappears because I am unable to sell the same said vehicle and continues to drive it?*
> 
> Michael - is your dealership providing loaners to customers who don't want to drive their vehicles while it await parts? I assume this is going to be the easiest way to get the car fixed promptly so that it is available for sale.


Oh no. They are still on the line, especially for compensatory damages. However punitive damages (the really big money) would be astronomical if they knowingly sell one of these cars and the worst happens. N4S


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

When it comes down to it I don't want to sue anyone and I don't want to leave the BMW fold (I love these cars, this will be my second ED, I'm a member of the CCA, have participated in the performance driving school), I just want to be treated fairly.

My intent was to pick up the new cars in Europe and continue to drive my old ones while awaiting those to be delivered. My goal was to sell them to Carmax or to a local dealer (they are both clean cars, the 328i is beautiful (Vermillion & Oyster) and would be great for a dealers used lot). I knew I'd be taking a little bit of a haircut on value as I'd have no real negotiating power - however now I have absolutely no negotiating power as nobody can resale them easily. I understand BMW is only trying to mitigate liability, however they are impacting their customer base.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Face128i said:


> When it comes down to it I don't want to sue anyone and I don't want to leave the BMW fold (I love these cars, this will be my second ED, I'm a member of the CCA, have participated in the performance driving school), I just want to be treated fairly.
> 
> My intent was to pick up the new cars in Europe and continue to drive my old ones while awaiting those to be delivered. My goal was to sell them to Carmax or to a local dealer (they are both clean cars, the 328i is beautiful (Vermillion & Oyster) and would be great for a dealers used lot). I knew I'd be taking a little bit of a haircut on value as I'd have no real negotiating power - however now I have absolutely no negotiating power as nobody can resale them easily. I understand BMW is only trying to mitigate liability, however they are potentially skull-****ing their customer base.
> 
> On top of the issues with my delivery date at the Welt, being unable to get the wheels I want and now this. Not a premium experience by any means.


You have a very tough situation. Unless you are prepared to carry 4 cars. I would get with your dealer and find out what if anything can be done about selling/trading your current cars, and if you can (big if) how much it's going to cost you. If nothing, I'd take the Euro trip, but wouldn't buy 2 more cars. Good luck, let us know what happens. N4S


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm not prepared to carry four cars - thus my dilemma. Three is no problem. Four is impossible.

Fortunately my dealer is a part of a conglomerate. And fortunately they are relatively active on Twitter.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Face128i said:


> I'm not prepared to carry four cars - thus my dilemma. Three is no problem. Four is impossible.
> 
> Fortunately my dealer is a part of a conglomerate. And fortunately they are relatively active on Twitter.


Are the cars you own on the Takata recall list?!?! You haven't said one word about what two BMWs you own. Have you gone to www.safercar.gov and put in your VINs?


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Face128i said:


> It appears that some dealers are choosing to ignore the stop sale mandate. I found the following vehicles for sale locally all have an outstanding recall campaign:
> 2013 128i - BMW of Dallas (Autonation)
> 2013 328i - BMW of Dallas


Do we know if every vehicle within the list of affected vehicles is subject to the recall? From the numbers given it appears to me that not every single vehicle within the affected groups is subject to the recall.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Not all in the series/years are affected. We have to check VIN history in our BMW system to check if it is a recall car or not. We've had some 3-series that didn't need the recall, but haven't quite figured out the common denominator yet.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

tturedraider said:


> Are the cars you own on the Takata recall list?!?! You haven't said one word about what two BMWs you own. Have you gone to www.safercar.gov and put in your VINs?


They are both on the list. We own a 2010 128i and a 2011 328i. I did my research before complaining. Both of the cars being sold by BMW of Dallas presented above are on the list as well.

Dealer just told me they have heard news that the stop sale order may be lifted soon. :dunno:

He also indicated that the dealers are being treated very fairly by BMW NA (paid monthly) for holding these vehicles until they can be serviced. Additionally this will represent some service department revenue as well, so things are supposedly not so dire from their end.


----------



## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

So if I feel unsafe in my X1, I can go to the dealer and say "here it is -- give me a loaner for the next two years? " Or however long it takes to fix my car? Confused, sorry.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> I am inconvenienced by having to potentially buy out my lease early in case my car makes the list and then I have to fight BMW for the equity in the car. I drive a 1M with a residual of 20k.


You do not have to buy out your lease early just because there is a recall notice on it. The terms of your lease are in full force and won't be changed, so you don't have to worry about that. BMW must live up to the rental agreement they made with you. You pay the agreed upon monthly payment and then walk away from the car at the expiration of the lease. They're stuck with it at that point, not you.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> Did you not read my post?
> 
> The residual is 20k and the car will be worth 50k.
> 
> ...


You should be able to get them to hold the car for you until such time as it is legal for them to allow you to exercise your option to purchase it at the guaranteed residual amount shown on your lease. I don't see any reason why they can't guarantee you that right. You would need to talk to them about that.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> And thus the inconvenience.
> 
> How long on hold?
> 
> ...


Did you run your VIN: https://vinrcl.safercar.gov/vin/


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> My dealer ran it and it's not on the recall list by they told me that could change anytime.
> 
> That's just wonderful isn't it?


You may want to try calling BMW of North America yourself to ask them to tell you if your car will be subject to this recall. However, if you aren't in a big hurry to find out, all of the recall letters for this particular recall will be mailed out starting March 14 and be completed by April 14, 2016. It seems to me that they probably already know if your VIN is on that list.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

There are a few class action lawsuits already filed (http://www.labaton.com/en/cases/Takata-Airbag-Consumer-Class-Action.cfm). I don't know if they are seeking damages due to diminished value however. Really crappy situation all the way around, the only ones that will probably benefit will be the trial lawyers.


----------



## JP 99300 (Sep 29, 2004)

Ninong said:


> You may want to try calling BMW of North America yourself to ask them to tell you if your car will be subject to this recall. However, if you aren't in a big hurry to find out, all of the recall letters for this particular recall will be mailed out starting March 14 and be completed by April 14, 2016. It seems to me that they probably already know if your VIN is on that list.


I think his point was that, given his 1M is not currently on the list now but could potentially be added in time as BMW continues to sort this out, is he "forced" to buy out his lease NOW to ensure he can capture that $30K of equity he is entitled to?

Hard to believe BMW is still trying to figure out which cars have Takata air bags in them, but that's a different issue.

Gigitty, best of luck!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

JP 99300 said:


> Hard to believe BMW is still trying to figure out which cars have Takata air bags in them, but that's a different issue.


BMW knows which cars have Takata airbags in them. However, Takata recently informed BMW that these particular airbags all have Takata PSDI-5 inflators, which were not part of the previous Takata recalls BMW conducted in 2013, 2014 and 2015. Approximately 840,000 BMWs have these PSDI-5 inflators. Takata believes that these inflators could degrade after being exposed to high heat, high humidity climates over a period of years. So this is a brand new Takata recall.

So how many cars in the U.S. alone may have to be recalled due to potentially risky Takata airbags? In addition to the 30 million already recalled, another 70-90 million! That's a grand total of 120 million if we take the high estimate, but only 100 million if we assume the low estimate. Is there sufficient manufacturing capacity to produce the replacement inflator modules for that many vehicles? No. At least not in any reasonable length of time. BMW is looking into developing their own inflator modules.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Gigitty said:


> Bingo and thanks.
> 
> This whole thing is odd to say the least when one considers there have been no known issues with BMWs and this is a voluntary recall which allows these cars to still be driven with what BMW considers a safety issue
> 
> ...


Once the car is out of their hands, there is not much they can do about it. They can and evidently are stopping the resale of the affected cars. Evidently they can't actually fix the issue since the parts don't exist. The best they can do is give customers a loaner if they want one. Yes, it is an awful situation. Probably worse than they are admitting to as of now. Since they are willing to forgo the profits from the resale of all these cars someone at BMW must be terrified of the potential liability. It's bad for everyone, except those that are holding cars that are not subject to the recall. Their value will likely increase. To quote a great movie " it's a big sh1t sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite".


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

I leased my car with the intent to buy unless I didn't like the car for some reason. My lease expires in a couple of weeks. I extended the lease for 2 months to see what happens as I really wanted to buy the car. The bummer for me is if I have to give it back I am under the extra miles I bought plus I have extra rims and snow tires that I bought for the car, plus I paid for extra fluid changes along the way and I put a BMW performance exhaust on knowing that I was going to buy the car. I wonder if I can get reimbursed or credit to buying a 2 series vert now? Not happy, but I am not blaming BMW for the situation just hope they take each situation on an individual basis.


----------



## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

angler said:


> I leased my car with the intent to buy unless I didn't like the car for some reason. My lease expires in a couple of weeks. I extended the lease for 2 months to see what happens as I really wanted to buy the car. The bummer for me is if I have to give it back I am under the extra miles I bought plus I have extra rims and snow tires that I bought for the car, plus I paid for extra fluid changes along the way and I put a BMW performance exhaust on knowing that I was going to buy the car. I wonder if I can get reimbursed or credit to buying a 2 series vert now? Not happy, but I am not blaming BMW for the situation just hope they take each situation on an individual basis.


It sounds like your in the same situation as the Giggity (has a valuable 1M under lease).

I agree with you that you can't blame BMW for making the right step to recall these potentially fatal airbags. However, you would have thought they would have their "Dealership Toolbox" of loyalty incentives, loaner incentives, or lease extensions in place prior to issuing the stop sale.

It would have at least reduced the angst around the issue for a lot of consumers.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Face128i said:


> It sounds like your in the same situation as the Giggity (has a valuable 1M under lease).
> 
> I agree with you that you can't blame BMW for making the right step to recall these potentially fatal airbags. However, you would have thought they would have their "Dealership Toolbox" of loyalty incentives, loaner incentives, or lease extensions in place prior to issuing the stop sale.
> 
> It would have at least reduced the angst around the issue for a lot of consumers.


I guess they are building the bridge as they walk on it. I am hoping that the tool box becomes clear in the next 30 days so I can make a decision on my next step.  Not crazy about the idea of a 2 with the electric steering but I might not have a choice.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> You should be able to get them to hold the car for you until such time as it is legal for them to allow you to exercise your option to purchase it at the guaranteed residual amount shown on your lease. I don't see any reason why they can't guarantee you that right. You would need to talk to them about that.


This may require lessee to pay upfront first for the buyout of an affected vehicle, but the paid car will need to be held till the fix is available. It probably is a good idea to just do an early buyout esp. if the car has appreciated in value.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Just a general comment ... 

As we all are living in the BMW world, many comment, "I can't believe BMW ..." or "Why isn't BMW more aware ..."

You get my drift.

We have to bear in mind, as Ninong has expressed very well in a previous post, that this is not just BMW. BMW isn't the only manufacturer to order a stop sale, and none of them know who will make the replacement parts and how long it will take to meet global demand. The reason BMW, and all the other manufacturers, don't know how far reaching this might be is not due to learning which vehicles are affected by the PSDI-5 inflators, but rather are there newer inflators ("PSDI-6") that could have the same problem.

Excuse the term, but it is a Charlie Foxtrot for everyone.

~M~


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

angler said:


> I leased my car with the intent to buy unless I didn't like the car for some reason. My lease expires in a couple of weeks. I extended the lease for 2 months to see what happens as I really wanted to buy the car. The bummer for me is if I have to give it back I am under the extra miles I bought plus I have extra rims and snow tires that I bought for the car, plus I paid for extra fluid changes along the way and I put a BMW performance exhaust on knowing that I was going to buy the car. I wonder if I can get reimbursed or credit to buying a 2 series vert now? Not happy, but I am not blaming BMW for the situation just hope they take each situation on an individual basis.


I don't know exactly how the lease is structured, however you might be able to:
"Sell the car" to someone you trust (brother/brother in law/buddy) they pay off what is owed on the lease. BMW gets their money, but never takes the car back since you have sold it to a third party. Then that someone sells the car back to you. I am going under the assumption that you can sell a car under BMW lease to a third party. It might be worth checking out. Good luck. N4S


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> This may require lessee to pay upfront first for the buyout of an affected vehicle, but the paid car will need to be held till the fix is available. It probably is a good idea to just do an early buyout esp. if the car has appreciated in value.


The only safe way for him to do this, if he is concerned about the possibility that it could be added to the stop-sale list, is to attempt to buy out the lease now. Even that may be tricky but it's something he needs to discuss with his dealership, not BMWFS. He would be buying the car from the dealership. Maybe the dealership can convert it to a used car loan through any one of their sources if BMWFS is not a good choice for that.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Just a general comment ...
> 
> As we all are living in the BMW world, many comment, "I can't believe BMW ..." or "Why isn't BMW more aware ..."
> 
> ...


Do F-chassis cars use PSDI-6 inflators? One previous question was that how the new design(currently used on F-chassis) fixes the issue. And why did previous generations of airbags(e.g. E46/E39) not have this issue?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> The only safe way for him to do this, if he is concerned about the possibility that it could be added to the stop-sale list, is to attempt to buy out the lease now. Even that may be tricky but it's something he needs to discuss with his dealership, not BMWFS. He would be buying the car from the dealership. Maybe the dealership can convert it to a used car loan through any one of their sources if BMWFS is not a good choice for that.


Does the BMWFS account show a "current" buyout price on the lease? If so then the lessee can just pay that amount and own the car, correct? Some CU's do issue used car loans on lease buyouts even if the lessees do not yet own the car.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

need4speed said:


> I don't know exactly how the lease is structured, however you might be able to:
> "Sell the car" to someone you trust (brother/brother in law/buddy) they pay off what is owed on the lease. BMW gets their money, but never takes the car back since you have sold it to a third party. Then that someone sells the car back to you. I am going under the assumption that you can sell a car under BMW lease to a third party. It might be worth checking out. Good luck. N4S


You can't sell the car as it is on the no sale list.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Do F-chassis cars use PSDI-6 inflators? One previous question was that how does the new design(currently used on F-chassis) fix the issue. And why the previous generations of airbags(e.g. E46/E39) did not have these issues?


Good question. What changes did Takata make to the propellant?



namelessman said:


> Does the BMWFS account show a "current" buyout price on the lease? If so then the lessee can just pay that amount and own the car, correct? Some CU's do issue used car loans on lease buyouts even if the lessees do not yet own the car.


Good question but I'm not current on that, so I won't answer.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> You can't sell the car as it is on the no sale list.


It's not on the stop-sale list yet. He's worried that it might be added in the near future.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Good question. What changes did Takata make to the propellant?
> 
> Good question but I'm not current on that, so I won't answer.


And I have no idea as well.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

angler said:


> You can't sell the car as it is on the no sale list.


He can't sell it to a 3rd party?


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

need4speed said:


> He can't sell it to a 3rd party?


This is a can of worms. If you know about the recall, then you have a duty to disclose to the prospective buyer.

Because no one in their right mind would purchase a car subject to a recall without a substantial reduction in the purchase price, the seller is left with an unsellable car or thousands less than he or she should have received on a sale made with full disclosure. This leads to diminished value claims addressed earlier in this thread. It's an absolute mess.

Edited to say: it's different for leases, but I'm not sure BMWFS would allow the lessee to purchase at the end of term today given the stop sale order. I know that my X5 was not subject to pull ahead all of last year and I wouldn't be surprised that the reason was because they knew this type of recall was in the offing. Assuming as much, even if a car isn't listed combined with the current absence of a system wide pull ahead plan leads me to assume that more recalls may be in the offing. No guarantees, but just sharing my thought process.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> He can't sell it to a 3rd party?


He can if he's the owner but he's not the owner.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

AksNasZasNas said:


> This is a can of worms. If you know about the recall, then you have a duty to disclose to the prospective buyer.


First, he has to become the registered owner of the car before he can sell it to anyone.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Ninong said:


> First, he has to become the registered owner of the car before he can sell it to anyone.


Right. Just edited my comment to clean it up.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

AksNasZasNas said:


> Right. Just edited my comment to clean it up.


Leasing is confusing to most customers because they fail to realize that all they're doing is renting the car. Even when they transfer their lease to another party, they're not actually the ones doing the transferring, BMWFS is because they're the owner. What the lessee is doing is running an ad to find a willing party to take over his lease and then asking the owner (BMWFS) if they would please allow this person to assume the balance of the lease contract. It's still entirely up to the owner (BMWFS) whether to go along with that request.

If you finance a car, at least you're the registered owner even if BMWFS is the legal owner until after finish paying for it. If you feel like selling it all you have to do is find someone willing to buy it from you and then in order to transfer ownership to him you have to pay it off or simply authorize him or his bank to pay it off. That's entirely up to you and BMWFS has no say in it at all. When you lease a car, you're just the registered lessee (renter) of the car. BMWFS is the registered lessor (owner) as well as the legal owner.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

BMW will not let the lessee buy the car at this point. They will extend your lease for two months. They are not willing to say if they will let you do another 2 month extension. So others as well as myself are in limbo on what the next move is.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> BMW will not let the lessee buy the car at this point. They will extend your lease for two months. They are not willing to say if they will let you do another 2 month extension. So others as well as myself are in limbo on what the next move is.


I assume you know that your car is on the stop-sale list but that is not the case for *Giggity*. He was told by the dealer that his 1M is not part of the current stop-sale order.

If that information is correct and his car has not yet been named in any stop-sale order, he should be able to purchase it through the dealership by simply having them pay it off and reselling it to him for the pay-off amount plus any state-mandated safety inspection and/or smog check, plus sales tax and registration fees, as applicable. At least that how it used to work in California and how I assume it still works, although that would have to be confirmed by him in his particular situation in whichever state he is in.


----------



## RonBurgundy (Feb 18, 2016)

My apologies if this was covered before... I'm not understanding how BMWFS/BMW NA can really refuse to let someone buy their leased car -- aren't they contractually obligated to do so at the residual value as spelled out in the lease agreement?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> I assume you know that your car is on the stop-sale list but that is not the case for *Giggity*. He was told by the dealer that his 1M is not part of the current stop-sale order.
> 
> If that information is correct and his car has not yet been named in any stop-sale order, he should be able to purchase it through the dealership by simply having them pay it off and reselling it to him for the pay-off amount plus any state-mandated safety inspection and/or smog check, plus sales tax and registration fees, as applicable. At least that how it used to work in California and how I assume it still works, although that would have to be confirmed by him in his particular situation in whichever state he is in.


Understood, he should call bmwfs direct.


----------



## JP 99300 (Sep 29, 2004)

Ninong said:


> I assume you know that your car is on the stop-sale list but that is not the case for *Giggity*. He was told by the dealer that his 1M is not part of the current stop-sale order.


*Giggity* - note you may want to double check your information (maybe you are the one very lucky car -- and if your dealer is still showing it as "clear" rush over and exercise your lease buyout quickly... 
I found this posting over on the 1M board:

_"I ran the check on all of the 740 1Ms in the US. As of today, the results are:

737 of 740 cars are part of the airbag recall (16V-071).
39 of 740 cars still have the battery recall open (13V-044)
2 of 740 are not recognized by the bmwusa.com website but work on the VIN decoder sites
1 car does not have any open recall (VT47814) That is either one very lucky car or they have a clerical error to fix."_

This info is from post #28 in the thread, with link here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19558020#post19558020


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

RonBurgundy said:


> My apologies if this was covered before... I'm not understanding how BMWFS/BMW NA can really refuse to let someone buy their leased car -- aren't they contractually obligated to do so at the residual value as spelled out in the lease agreement?


We understand how they can refuse to sell it, the real question is whether they can figure out a way around that. The problem is that they are not allowed to sell a car with an open safety-defect recall until after they have performed the necessary repairs. In this case, the parts necessary to perform that work are not available. That doesn't mean they aren't trying to figure out a way around that but I haven't read anything yet about a solution.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

RonBurgundy said:


> My apologies if this was covered before... I'm not understanding how BMWFS/BMW NA can really refuse to let someone buy their leased car -- aren't they contractually obligated to do so at the residual value as spelled out in the lease agreement?


The lease contract does ask lessee to "agree to maintain, service, repair, and recondition the Vehicle during the Lease Term with new and genuine manufacturer's original equipment replacement parts ...."

My thinking is that any outstanding recall falls under the above clause, and the lease turn-in cannot really finalize until the outstanding recall is fixed.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The lease contract does ask lessee to "agree to maintain, service, repair, and recondition the Vehicle during the Lease Term with new and genuine manufacturer's original equipment replacement parts ...."
> 
> My thinking is that any outstanding recall falls under the above clause, and the lease turn-in cannot really finalize until the outstanding recall is fixed.


No, that's not a problem at all. They definitely take back leased cars at the end of the lease regardless of whether there is work to be done to them and then bill the customer for anything that is his contractual responsibility. The problem is that the law doesn't allow them to sell a car with an open safety-defect recall until after they have done that repair. At least that is my understanding of the problem.

The manufacturer, BMW Group (BMW M GmbH in the case of a 1M) was notified by Takata and the NHTSA about safety concerns with this particular inflator module that was not part of the previous Takata air bag recalls. It is my understanding that the manufacturer issued a voluntary recall, at least that's what I read. If the recall was issued and the vehicle's VIN is listed on the recall, then the safety recall work must be performed before the car can be sold back to the lessee. Remember BMWFS has to sell the car to the dealer for resale to the lessee. When you exercise your option to purchase your leased car at lease end, you're buying it from the dealer, not BMWFS. Can the customer sign a waiver acknowledging the open safety work has not yet been done in order to get around that??? Who knows??? :dunno:


----------



## zx10guy (Jan 27, 2014)

I was in this very situaition but with a different vehicle. Actually it was a motorcycle, a 2009 Ducati 848. I was all ready to go to the dealership to sign the papers and pay for the bike when I was told at the last minute the sale had to be postponed. During the delivery prep, the service department found out my bike was part of the fuel line recall. The dealer had to order the part and get the recall done before I could even execute the paper work. It put an extra few days delay on when I was finally able to get the paper work done, pay for the bike, and ride the bike off the dealer lot. The part had to be shipped from Italy via boat.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> Remember BMWFS has to sell the car to the dealer for resale to the lessee. When you exercise your option to purchase your leased car at lease end, you're buying it from the dealer, not BMWFS. Can the customer sign a waiver acknowledging the open safety work has not yet been done in order to get around that??? Who knows??? :dunno:


That is not entirely accurate. If you want you can buy the car direct from BMWFS if you like. All you do is send them the check for the buyout directly.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> That is not entirely accurate. If you want you can buy the car direct from BMWFS if you like. All you do is send them the check for the buyout directly.


Do you know if that is possible in every state?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

According to BMWFS, they will extend leases 2 more months without an ordered car production number, up to 6 months with one.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

RonBurgundy said:


> My apologies if this was covered before... I'm not understanding how BMWFS/BMW NA can really refuse to let someone buy their leased car -- *aren't they contractually obligated to do so at the residual value as spelled out in the lease agreement?*


I agree, based on the language in Section 30 of the Lease Agreement. However, the lease end purchase still constitutes a transfer of ownership from BMWFS to lessees, and that again puts 100% liability on BMW FS should anything happen.

It's a legal conundrum, I'm sure.

~M~


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Oops! I forgot to address something else in your question. BMW did not halt the trade in of cars affected by this air bag recall. That statement in the title of the thread is incorrect. Dealers are not prohibited from taking them in trade, they are just prohibited from selling them with an open stop-sale order on them until after the repairs have been done. As always, trade in allowances are negotiated between you and the dealer. Unless BMW decides to publish a guaranteed value that they will take in each of the cars on the recall list. I have a feeling they are probably working on what sort of program they can offer their customers who are currently driving one of these cars, whether leased or not, but who feel unsafe and want to turn it in for a BMW that does not have a defective air bag. That could end up being a very costly program indeed but I'm sure it's something they are all thinking about.
> 
> Obviously that holds true for any cars that you may have seen advertised anywhere for sale by a BMW dealer. If they were subject to a safety-recall, they can't be offered for sale. If you see a car offered for sale with a VIN that is listed on the safety recall notice, then you would have to ask if that work has been completed. The dealer doesn't have to receive a formal stop-sale order on a car that is listed on a safety recall notice. BMW requires him to fix any outstanding recalls before offering a car for sale under their CPO program already.


It is good to know trade is not affected. The trade in prices can be affected though, as dealers use Manheim and such, and affected vehicles cannot be fetching good prices at auction, right?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ccyippy said:


> I am also considering talking to a lawyer about this.


My guess is the time and money spent on the legal route probably will be more than just leasing/buying another car, even if it needs to be expedited within a compressed time frame.


----------



## RonBurgundy (Feb 18, 2016)

FWIW I really have no horse in this race other than being curious to see how BMW will handle this... 

The lease agreement is a contract between two parties. BMW certainly CANNOT just decide what part of the contract they will or will not abide by. I'm sure it would likely take a legal challenge/arbitration to get there however I'm just not seeing how they can arbitrarily decide whether they will not sell a car to the party that leased it as the contract specifically spells out the purchase option at lease term end. It's not up to BMW FS to 'allow or disallow' a sale of a leased car as the contract provides for it at the discretion of the person that signed the lease agreement.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

RonBurgundy said:


> FWIW I really have no horse in this race other than being curious to see how BMW will handle this...
> 
> The lease agreement is a contract between two parties. BMW certainly CANNOT just decide what part of the contract they will or will not abide by. I'm sure it would likely take a legal challenge/arbitration to get there however I'm just not seeing how they can arbitrarily decide whether they will not sell a car to the party that leased it as the contract specifically spells out the purchase option at lease term end. It's not up to BMW FS to 'allow or disallow' a sale of a leased car as the contract provides for it at the discretion of the person that signed the lease agreement.


Jon posted a copy of BMW lease contract on this forum. On that copy it states the vehicle return to be at "end of my(lessee) lease term". However, under the purchase option clause, it only states the prices(prior or at end of the lease term), but it does not have a time limit. So technically the purchase option can be exercised, but BMWFS/BMWNA cannot release the car until the recall is completed.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Definitely true as to most BMWFS leases but not true as to all BMWFS leases. Despite the fact that BMWFS subvents residuals, it is also true that some leased cars have greater value at maturity than the preset residual value. What is also true is that some leased cars have a greater value to the dealership based on the BMWFS buyout offered to the dealership at lease maturity. This is a long way off describing phantom equity. And also explains why dealerships can offer purchase deals to the lessee at below residual value. At times, the lessee could also use the phantom equity to negotiate better deals on the next lease from competing dealerships because the dealerships believe that they can sell the returned vehicle at a greater value than purchased from BMWFS. It definitely happens but any chance of that happening has been wiped out for the recalled cars. Case in point the 1M discussed earlier in this thread if it was subject to recall has lost all phantom equity. Dealerships would be falling all over themselves to get the 1M as a CPO.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It is good to know trade is not affected. The trade in prices can be affected though, as dealers use Manheim and such, and affected vehicles cannot be fetching good prices at auction, right?


No. That's what people don't understand. The value of a used car depends on who's appraising it. You can throw out all the books and computers and listings and everything else that you see published because the bottom line is that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." If the car has eye appeal and looks "exceptionally clean" to the person appraising it and he definitely wants it for his lot because he believes it will be a money-maker and sell quickly, he will step up to the place to make sure the deal gets done if at all possible.

On the other hand, if he really doesn't like that car and isn't interested in keeping it, he won't be as aggressive in his appraisal. You won't see published adjustments based on the color of the car but if you don't think that's important, I have news for you. Certain colors are acceptable to a large percentage of the used-car buying public and certain colors are only acceptable to a few of them. Remember the color has to be acceptable to both, if we're talking about a married couple, and wives have a tendency to be more picky about color than their husbands. "No way am I going to be seen driving that orange car not matter what color you call it or how much you always wanted an M3."

Anyway, what do you want for your used car operation? A color that is acceptable to 80% of the buyers (both husband AND wife) or one that is not acceptable to the majority of them. Even if it's an acceptable color, do you really want to be as aggressive in appraising it if you already have six exactly like it or if it's a good color and you really need it because all six of the others you have are Alpine White. Getting back to the example of a Fire Orange M3. Which would you rather have for your used-car operation: Fire Orange or Estoril Blue. Which color do you think is acceptable to more buyers, especially their wives?

Maybe CarMax appraises cars based on a computer model but dealers don't. They may use published values as a guide but they adjust those based on the personal bias of the person making the appraisal.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Jon posted a copy of BMW lease contract on this forum. On that copy it states the vehicle return to be at "end of my(lessee) lease term". However, under the purchase option clause, it only states the prices(prior or at end of the lease term), but it does not have a time limit. So technically the purchase option can be exercised, but BMWFS/BMWNA cannot release the car until the recall is completed.


It states the value calculation at either "the Scheduled Termination of the Lease," or "Prior to the end of the Lease Term."

Pretty clear that it is at or prior to the Lease Termination date.

~M~


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

In a couple of the posts it refers to a 2 year time frame to fix this problem. Is this speculation? Michael, do you think they will extend the lease again after the first two month extension? On the question id you can buy the car directly from BMWFS instead of a dealer in all states I have no idea. Not sure why you couldn't as they are who you are leasing the car from, not the dealer.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

Ninong said:


> You can return your car to any BMW dealership in the United States.
> 
> Run the VINs and see if they're subject to recall. Don't forget that the stop-sale order was just issued. The recall letters to owners don't start going out until tomorrow and won't be finished mailing until April 14. There are 840,000 vehicles impacted by this latest recall.
> 
> ...


When I spoke with BMW FS in late February to understand process of return to another dealer, they told me that I'd have to call a local dealer to see if they would accept the return, this indicates that not all dealers have to accept return. They also said that it'd be better for me to return to the original dealer as the original dealer would be more lenient on waiving wear and tear and/or disposition fee.

I just ran the VIN for one of the listed CPO X1 2013 that's actually listed for sale by a dealer close to me and yes it's part of the recall.

I acknowledge that BMW and many other manufacturers are in a tough position right now but they are big corporations with wealth and leverage many times more than me or any average consumer so I am not going to set aside my issues and compromise myself financially or legally simply because they have larger issues to deal with.

Some of my friends have seen this as a good news: "now you get to buy a new car!", but what they are missing on is that I DO NOT want to buy another car! I like my car, I took care of it and I've been paying for it via lease and actually look forward to handing over a big check to outright own it. Returning this car means paying for some extra fees and buying a new car means starting this process of lease/finance all over again before I can get a car that's 100% mine.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

RonBurgundy said:


> It's not up to BMW FS to 'allow or disallow' a sale of a leased car as the contract provides for it at the discretion of the person that signed the lease agreement.


What about the federal government? Do they have the authority to tell the dealers to not sell certain cars until after the safety recall work has been performed?

Obviously the dealers cannot sell a new car with an open safety defect that has not been fixed because that is already spelled out specifically by law.

The law also places responsibility on the manufacturers for all safety recall repairs to all cars. That's why CarMax would have to take a used car to one of that manufacturer's dealerships to have the safety defect recall work performed.

There is a bill pending in the Senate (S.900) proposed by Senators Blumenthal and Markey that would specifically prohibit the sale of used passenger vehicles that have open safety recalls on them. The NADA has advised all of their members to not sell any used cars with open safety recalls. BMW prohibits their dealers from offering for sale any car under the BMW-sponsored CPO program until all recall work has been completed.

All manufacturers (famously VW, Audi, Porsche recently) issue stop-sale orders to their dealers when necessary and that prevents the dealers from selling any of the cars in that stop-sale order, new or used. BMW issued a stop-sale order on another 840,000 BMWs because they are subject to a Takata air bag recall. Can the dealer sell you a car on that list just because you were the former lessee of that car? That's the question. Their answer, for the moment, is that they won't sell it to you until after they have fixed it.

Everybody and their brother is lining up to sue CarMax for selling them a used car with a known safety defect. CarMax's defense is that they always advise all of their buyers on delivery that they should register their cars with the car's manufacturer to check for any recalls because that's not part of CarMax's "rigorous 125-point inspection." What!!!??? How rigorous can it be if they dont' even check for recalls?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> On the question id you can buy the car directly from BMWFS instead of a dealer in all states I have no idea. Not sure why you couldn't as they are who you are leasing the car from, not the dealer.


In California, the dealer performs the state-mandated safety and smog inspection prior to the sale to the customer. Perhaps it is possible for BMWFS to avoid that if they sell the car directly to the customer but all of our customers wanted us to handle that for them, possibly because they hoped to be able to purchase the car at a better price that way. So that's just a question I had. I guess it's a question for one of the Bimmerfest sponsors from California?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

ccyippy said:


> I am in a similar situation as Angler, was directed to this post after I posted somewhere else on the forum. I have a 2013 X1 and lease is coming due next week. I have taken great care of the car during my lease as I would most likely buy it at the end, the mileage is also low that it's like-new so I'd make a profit even if I sell it immediately after buyout. Back in late February when I called BMW FS to understand the process of buy vs. return, they told me I have until my lease due date to make a decision and that they have not gotten word on whether BMW Corporate would let them sell the car and that may change in March. But they didn't tell me that there's a recall affecting my car and hence that all sale would be on hold...so you can imagine the unpleasant surprise just this past Friday when BMW FS called me to tell me I need to return my car and when I asked about purchase, they said I cannot purchase because of the recall. I told them that I thought it was unfair for them to tell me this so late since I do not have another car available and certainly not planning to drive back (I live in Northern Cali and the dealer where I made my purchase is in Southern California) to return the car next month..a week simply is not enough time to buy a new car anyway. They said that they can extend the lease for 2 months as a courtesy but they can't guarantee that the decision of no-sale would be lifted at the end of two months.
> 
> While I appreciate that they are doing this for our safety and by law they can't sell the car with known safety defect regardless of what is in the lease agreement that entitles owners like me to buy the car at the end of the lease, and even if I can look past that I now probably can't realize the potential profit of buying a car at residual value that is much lower than market value, forcing me to return the car poses some financial expenses like disposition fee, extra wear and tear, and costs for driving down the vehicle to my original dealer, etc. that I did not anticipate to make...and then having to spend time to negotiate and buy a new car. I don't think these are expenses they can ask me to bear simply bcs they can't honor the lease purchase option and frankly I feel like I was misled when they did not disclose the information back in February to me...that would have given me more time to process all this and come up with plan B.
> 
> I am also considering talking to a lawyer about this. Also, if dealers are not allowed to take in and sell X1 model 2013-2015, why is it that I still see CPO X1 from those years for sale on BMW USA website?!


+1, I spoke to them in early Feb as well. They actually gave me a price for the buy out. I didn't execute it as I thought I would make the final payment then buy. Again I do not fault them its all the mod's I made to the car plus all the extra maintenance I did above the scheduled BMW maintenance, plus I am under my miles by 24k (my driving for work changed substantially). it's not a good situation for anyone. Hopefully they will have some sort of compensation in their tool box for situations like this. Or they can fix the recall in a timely manor.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

ccyippy said:


> When I spoke with BMW FS in late February to understand process of return to another dealer, they told me that I'd have to call a local dealer to see if they would accept the return, this indicates that not all dealers have to accept return. They also said that it'd be better for me to return to the original dealer as the original dealer would be more lenient on waiving wear and tear and/or disposition fee.
> 
> I just ran the VIN for one of the listed CPO X1 2013 that's actually listed for sale by a dealer close to me and yes it's part of the recall.
> 
> ...


You are assuming that BMW will not work something out with you.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

angler said:


> You are assuming that BMW will not work something out with you.


I am hoping that they would work something out but for now I have to assume the worst, i.e., can't buy the car even after lease extension and have to return to original dealer and pay all the necessary fees. Given that my lease ends next week, I have very few days to sort this out, it's really stressing me out.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

ccyippy said:


> I am hoping that they would work something out but for now I have to assume the worst, i.e., can't buy the car even after lease extension and have to return to original dealer and pay all the necessary fees. Given that my lease ends next week, I have very few days to sort this out, it's really stressing me out.


Did you extend the lease by 2 months?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> I am hoping that they would work something out but for now I have to assume the worst, i.e., can't buy the car even after lease extension and have to return to original dealer and pay all the necessary fees. Given that my lease ends next week, I have very few days to sort this out, it's really stressing me out.


If you currently live in Alaska, do you have to return the car to the original dealer? That seems harsh. Under normal circumstances you are allowed to return the car to any BMW dealer in the United States and that applies whether you intend to just drop it off or exercise your option to purchase it.

If they are insisting that it must be the original dealer, I think that's going too far. However, it could be related to the very really possibility that their "assistance" to the dealers is inadequate to cover the dealers real costs in holding these cars indefinitely and that they feel they have more leverage over the originating dealer.

I would still call them back and tell them in no uncertain terms that returning to the originating dealer is out of the question and you need them to give you the name of a local BMW dealership where you can do this. Be sure to make it very clear that you have every intention to exercise your option to purchase this car and that you want it repaired as soon as possible so that you can purchase it at a time-adjusted residual. You don't have to mention that last part about the residual because you're not at that point in the negotiation yet. Just tell them to give you the name of a local BMW dealer who will keep the car untouched for you until such time as BMW lifts the stop-sale order on it, which may not be until after it is fixed.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Why would he want them to hold his car until it gets fixed? Wouldn't it be better to just extend the lease and keep driving the car? I think it would be hard for them not to keep extending the lease until the problem gets fixed. That was my thinking anyway.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

angler said:


> Did you extend the lease by 2 months?


They only mentioned it on Friday during the call but they haven't offered it to me yet. I am going to call them tomorrow that I intend to buy the car when my lease is up and that if they can't sell it to me now, then I'd like at least 2 month extension on my lease so that both sides have time to figure this out. In the meantime, I will also push them on allowing me to return the car w/o disposition fees and minimal wear and tear charge if I have to return.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> It states the value calculation at either "the Scheduled Termination of the Lease," or "Prior to the end of the Lease Term."
> 
> Pretty clear that it is at or prior to the Lease Termination date.
> 
> ~M~


My sense is that lessee interested in buyout will be expected to keep extending the lease, and hence pushing out the "Scheduled Termination". Currently the extension maxes out at 6 months, but BMWFS probably should allow extension beyond 6 months for the affected cars(and the purchase price needs to be re-worked at that time).


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

namelessman said:


> My sense is that lessee interested in buyout will be expected to keep extending the lease, and hence pushing out the "Scheduled Termination". Currently the extension maxes out at 6 months, but BMWFS probably should allow extension beyond 6 months for the affected cars(and the purchase price needs to be re-worked at that time).


I wonder whether during the recall extension period, BMWFS will continue getting the same monthly payment notwithstanding the fact that the lessee retains the attendant risks of driving the recalled car. Put more simply, why should the lessee have to pay the same monthly during the recall period? Wouldn't a discount that takes account of the risks be in the offing?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> No. That's what people don't understand. The value of a used car depends on who's appraising it. You can throw out all the books and computers and listings and everything else that you see published because the bottom line is that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." If the car has eye appeal and looks "exceptionally clean" to the person appraising it and he definitely wants it for his lot because he believes it will be a money-maker and sell quickly, he will step up to the place to make sure the deal gets done if at all possible.
> 
> On the other hand, if he really doesn't like that car and isn't interested in keeping it, he won't be as aggressive in his appraisal. You won't see published adjustments based on the color of the car but if you don't think that's important, I have news for you. Certain colors are acceptable to a large percentage of the used-car buying public and certain colors are only acceptable to a few of them. Remember the color has to be acceptable to both, if we're talking about a married couple, and wives have a tendency to be more picky about color than their husbands. "No way am I going to be seen driving that orange car not matter what color you call it or how much you always wanted an M3."
> 
> ...


It makes sense the appraisers have leeway on trade-in prices, but from my limited experience those usually do not go above the NADA clean trade regardless of appeal. That does not mean that dealers do not sell the gems without high margins, but the *****side is usually by the book, while the sell-side is by curb appeal.  It can be true that the M-cars(with scarce supplies) are different mainly as there are wider margins to play with than non-M.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

namelessman said:


> My sense is that lessee interested in buyout will be expected to keep extending the lease, and hence pushing out the "Scheduled Termination". Currently the extension maxes out at 6 months, but BMWFS probably should allow extension beyond 6 months for the affected cars(and the purchase price needs to be re-worked at that time).


I agree, I just went through the contract and I don't see where they can make you give the car back if you want it. I get that you would have to keep extending the lease until the airbag get's fixed, that seems fair to me. For me, what's interesting is that I bought 18K a year for miles. I am 24K under for the 3 years and I would rather not keep paying for the extra miles that I don't need during this extension. I wonder what they will have to say about that?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

AksNasZasNas said:


> I wonder whether during the recall extension period, BMWFS will continue getting the same monthly payment notwithstanding the fact that the lessee retains the attendant risks of driving the recalled car. Put more simply, why should the lessee have to pay the same monthly during the recall period? Wouldn't a discount that takes account of the risks be in the offing?


That is a good question. If the recall cannot be done quickly then maybe a prudent next-step will be just to return the car, or only extend for a short time(e.g. 2 months), and as suggested by other posters, request for waivers of disposition and misc. lease end charges/fees at turn-in.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

angler said:


> I agree, I just went through the contract and I don't see where they can make you give the car back if you want it. I get that you would have to keep extending the lease until the airbag get's fixed, that seems fair to me. For me, what's interesting is that I bought 18K a year for miles. I am 24K under for the 3 years and I would rather not keep paying for the extra miles that I don't need during this extension. I wonder what they will have to say about that?


That is a great question for the board sponsors, but extension usually is not as clear cut as the original lease terms(e.g. 3-year depreciation plus rent charge evenly spread into 36 payments). My guess is that at minimum the 24k under mileage can be utilized during extension(e.g. 6 months), but BMWFS won't reduce the monthly even with unused miles(it is worth a try to ask). At least BMWS should be fair to prorate additional mileage allowance based on the extension(e.g. extra 9k miles on top of the 24k unused miles for that 6-month extension).

BTW do note that depreciation has 2 parts, namely, the miles driven and the aging of the car. Each month of extension(hence additional aging) consumes a chunk of the monthly payment as far as BMWFS is concerned.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

A prior post said that BMW plans to build its own mfg plant to make the part and that's why this recall could take ~2 years to resolve, does anyone know who mfg the airbags that currently go into the 2016 of X1 model? I am wondering there would be a recall on them if I return after the lease and buys a 2016 X1? 3-year lease and 2 recalls, perhaps this is a sign that I should buy another brand.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

ccyippy said:


> A prior post said that BMW plans to build its own mfg plant to make the part and that's why this recall could take ~2 years to resolve, does anyone know who mfg the airbags that currently go into the 2016 of X1 model? I am wondering there would be a recall on them if I return after the lease and buys a 2016 X1? 3-year lease and 2 recalls, perhaps this is a sign that I should buy another brand.


You could always ask who the manufacture of the airbag is. On another note you should remember this really is an oddity. So IMO I wouldn't have this effect your view of BMW. They did not knowingly manufacture faulty airbags and hide the test results. Just my 2 cents,


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

namelessman said:


> That is a great question for the board sponsors, but extension usually is not as clear cut as the original lease terms(e.g. 3-year depreciation plus rent charge evenly spread into 36 payments). My guess is that at minimum the 24k under mileage can be utilized during extension(e.g. 6 months), but BMWFS won't reduce the monthly even with unused miles(it is worth a try to ask). At least BMWS should be fair to prorate additional mileage allowance based on the extension(e.g. extra 9k miles on top of the 24k unused miles for that 6-month extension).
> 
> BTW do note that depreciation has 2 parts, namely, the miles driven and the aging of the car. Each month of extension(hence additional aging) consumes a chunk of the monthly payment as far as BMWFS is concerned.


Understood , but I am paying 15 cents a mile extra for the additional miles I bought. So if we keep the same lease payment on an extension wouldn't that include those extra miles I bought on a monthly basis?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> That is a good question. If the recall cannot be done quickly then maybe a prudent next-step will be just to return the car, or only extend for a short time(e.g. 2 months), and as suggested by other posters, request for waivers of disposition and misc. lease end charges/fees at turn-in.


I'm sure that BMWFS is trying to work through all the scenarios. There are so many variables:

Purchases​
Extensions and what the new residuals and payments will be​
Disposition Fees if you don't stay in the brand​
Excessive miles due to extended contracts​
Compensating dealers for flooring unsaleable vehicles​
At this point we're just speculating as to what anyone is legally or contractually required to do.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> Why would he want them to hold his car until it gets fixed? Wouldn't it be better to just extend the lease and keep driving the car? I think it would be hard for them not to keep extending the lease until the problem gets fixed. That was my thinking anyway.


I'm sure BMW would rather not be in this situation in the first place. I'm sure they would rather keep their customers happy. So that's not the point and I don't think we have to worry about what they would rather do but what they think they can legally do. They have to follow the laws of each of the different countries around the world where they do business.

I'm sure that they hope that a two-month extension from now gives them enough time to figure out a solution. And it if doesn't, I hope they have decided by then that they can offer a second two-month extension. This whole mess is costing them a ton of money! I'm sure they would much rather let everybody just keep on doing things the way they always did them. When you think about it, the people driving those recalled cars right now but who have a couple of years remaining on their lease, are under no obligation to stop driving those cars. The complication is whether BMW, as the manufacturer responsible under US law for repairing safety defects, can legally sell a car they know has an outstanding safety recall to anybody, including the lessee, or if it has to be repaired first.

Are used cars presently covered by that law? No, they aren't. Just new cars. However, prudence dictates that the manufacturer tread with caution in this area because a law specifically naming used cars could be passed soon. Also, the NADA has advised all new car dealers to not sell any used cars with outstanding safety recalls before fixing them first. And BMW already has a policy requiring their dealers to perform all recalls on a used car under their BMW-sponsored CPO program before offering it for sale.

So now what? That's what BMW wants to know, too, I'm sure. Remember we're talking about a recall that most customers are completely unaware of because the recall letters won't start being mailed until tomorrow... all 840,000 of them. That's when the rear stuff will hit the fan.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> They only mentioned it on Friday during the call but they haven't offered it to me yet. I am going to call them tomorrow that I intend to buy the car when my lease is up and that if they can't sell it to me now, then I'd like at least 2 month extension on my lease so that both sides have time to figure this out. In the meantime, I will also push them on allowing me to return the car w/o disposition fees and minimal wear and tear charge if I have to return.


How can they charge you a $350 disposition fee when you do NOT want them to dispose of the car? I seriously doubt that you will be required to pay a disposition fee of any amount. The same goes for any charges for excessive wear and tear. You want to keep the car. You do NOT want them to dispose of the car and you're perfectly happy with it just the way it is. Make sure to explain that to them.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> That is a good question. If the recall cannot be done quickly then maybe a prudent next-step will be just to return the car, or only extend for a short time(e.g. 2 months), and as suggested by other posters, request for waivers of disposition and misc. lease end charges/fees at turn-in.





angler said:


> In a couple of the posts it refers to a 2 year time frame to fix this problem. Is this speculation? Michael, do you think they will extend the lease again after the first two month extension? On the question id you can buy the car directly from BMWFS instead of a dealer in all states I have no idea. Not sure why you couldn't as they are who you are leasing the car from, not the dealer.


What I read on the NHTSA recall/Takata site is that based on the capacity for Takata and three other Alternative Inflator Suppliers, it could be up to 27 months to complete the recall. This is from the Nov 2015 Coordinated Remedy Order from NHTSA.

I don't have any assumption as to what BMWFS will do after the 2 month extensions expire. I suggest if you manage your lease on the MY BMW site, click for a payoff and read the Payoff Documents. See if that process recognizes your recall VIN and if it alters your ability to buy it straight from BMW.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

AksNasZasNas said:


> I wonder whether during the recall extension period, BMWFS will continue getting the same monthly payment notwithstanding the fact that the lessee retains the attendant risks of driving the recalled car. Put more simply, why should the lessee have to pay the same monthly during the recall period? Wouldn't a discount that takes account of the risks be in the offing?


For that argument to hold weight BMW would have to discount the lease payments of everyone currently leasing a car with an outstanding safety recall that cannot be repaired. And what about people who are financing instead of leasing? What about people who paid cash for their cars? Should BMW pay a monthly fee to everyone driving a BMW with a Takata air bag under recall while waiting for available parts to fix it? All 840,000 of them?

What if the NHTSA's current investigation concludes that they should add another 70-90 million cars to the 30 million in the U.S. that are already under recall? They have confirmed that they are investigating that issue right now. That would amount to a recall of every Takata air bag known to exist in the U.S. So far the number of confirmed deaths is either 7 or 10 depending on which article you read. That compares with 124 confirmed deaths from GM's ignition switch debacle. Something they caused and knew about for more than 10 years, although they now pretend that it wasn't authorized and that all the steps they took to cover it up over the years after it came to light were just a coincidence. Things like changing the part number of the new ignition switches so that they wouldn't be confused with the old faulty ones. It was just a $1 part. But by issuing a recall, they would be acknowledging something they didn't want to own up to because it had already resulted in deaths and injuries. Whatever. No one really believes Mary Barra. She was in charge of product development before she was promoted to CEO and Chairman of the Board.

No one is saying GM did it deliberately. What they are saying is that after so many accident reports over a period of several years, General Motors did eventually figure out what was going on but instead of recalling all of those cars and admitting they caused those injuries and deaths with a faulty switch, they chose to cover it up and hope that no one would notice what they noticed. Henry Ford II could have recalled all of the Pintos to replace their exploding gas tanks but he refused. Lee Iacocca asked him for permission to do that but Henry said it would be too expensive and it would mean admitting responsibility for deaths already caused by those gas tanks. Eventually they were forced to recall them but they could have done it much earlier voluntarily.

In the case of BMW and Mercedes and Audi and Porsche and all the other manufacturers who used Takata airbags, they're the victims of a corrupt company, Takata. Will anyone ever be held criminally responsible? If you mean here in the U.S., probably not. Our laws were designed by the auto manufacturers' lobbyists to specially exclude criminal charges for violations of the Clean Air Act, just fines against the corporation but no criminal charges against the responsible persons. For the U.S. to prosecute, let's say Volkswagen for lying to them for years about diesel emissions, they would have to have the Justice Dept hit them with fraudulent advertising (a real possibility) or something similar. They can only hit them with very large fines for violation of the Clean Air Act because that's the law. No criminal charges against individuals under that act. Find a different law if you want to charge the guys who personally lied to you, repeatedly. DOJ is looking into that but don't hold your breath.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Ninong said:


> For that argument to hold weight BMW would have to discount the lease payments of everyone currently leasing a car with an outstanding safety recall that cannot be repaired. And what about people who are financing instead of leasing? What about people who paid cash for their cars? Should BMW pay a monthly fee to everyone driving a BMW with a Takata air bag under recall while waiting for available parts to fix it? All 840,000 of them?
> 
> .


The answer to each of your questions is yes. The recalled cars now have diminished value. BMW's recourse (as well as all other affected manufacturers) is to go after Tanaka for the resulting damages. Ultimate fault may not be BMW's, but it does remain liable for damages now that disclosure has been made.

From a consumer perspective, I have no doubt that BMW will seek to make the consumer as whole as possible whether through loaners, MF reductions, loyalty discounts, etc etc. But it is important for each manufacturer to understand each possible way that a consumer has been undercut by way of this recall.


----------



## cBeam (Sep 6, 2006)

I own (free and clear) a 2011 335d, which is among the cars listed as affected by the latest recall. I buy BMWs because they are very safe cars, the potential airbag malfunction bothers me so I start to think about replacing the car (another BMW?). Also, after 5 years it is time for something new.

First I am trying to determine a realistic trade in value using online sources.
What I see so far:
- Using the safercar.gov website my car comes back as clean. Does this mean my car is not affected or is this new recall not entered there (this is what I assume).
- Regardless, the car seems to be worth less than I expected. Possible reasons: 
(1) It's a Diesel affected as collateral damage by the VW scandal (not sure if this is true)
(2) The potential Tacata recall depresses value further, or if it is not reflected yet the value will go down even more.
(3) I might have had unrealistic expectations about depreciation of my car.

From what I gather it might be difficult to get a dealer to trade in my car (assuming my car is affected by the recall).

What really bothers me is the following: Apparently BMW deems cars with the recalled Tacata systems as unsafe enough so they need to replace the Airbag drivers. But somehow I am supposed to drive the car as if nothing was wrong until they can replace the part, taking up to 2 years time and maybe another 30 to 40k miles???

So, selling now means depressed price, waiting for a fix could mean driving a less safe car for up to 2 years.

I see no good options here.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> A prior post said that BMW plans to build its own mfg plant to make the part and that's why this recall could take ~2 years to resolve, does anyone know who mfg the airbags that currently go into the 2016 of X1 model? I am wondering there would be a recall on them if I return after the lease and buys a 2016 X1? 3-year lease and 2 recalls, perhaps this is a sign that I should buy another brand.


Okay, but before you switch to another brand, be sure to read this list because obviously you wouldn't want to end up buying any of these brands either, right? You have to scroll all the way down to the bottom of the article for the list of cars that have been recalled due to Takata airbags in the U.S.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/massiv...now-including-full-list-of-affected-vehicles/


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

cBeam said:


> What really bothers me is the following: Apparently BMW deems cars with the recalled Tacata systems as unsafe enough so they need to replace the Airbag drivers. But somehow I am supposed to drive the car as if nothing was wrong until they can replace the part, taking up to 2 years time and maybe another 30 to 40k miles???
> 
> So, selling now means depressed price, waiting for a fix could mean driving a less safe car for up to 2 years.
> 
> I see no good options here.


Agreed. How does this make sense? I recognize that a quick fix is not available but why is the consumer having to bear the risk and/or diminished value. That turns modern tort law on its head.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It makes sense the appraisers have leeway on trade-in prices, but from my limited experience those usually do not go above the NADA clean trade regardless of appeal. That does not mean that dealers do not sell the gems without high margins, but the *****side is usually by the book, while the sell-side is by curb appeal.  It can be true that the M-cars(with scarce supplies) are different mainly as there are wider margins to play with than non-M.


Yep! Everybody wants above book for their trade-in but they want to buy used cars below book and only if they're low mileage and exceptionally nice.

And then, no matter what they paid, they will always exaggerate on the low side when they tell the guys at work all about the good deal they got thanks to their superior negotiating skills.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I'm sure that BMWFS is trying to work through all the scenarios. There are so many variables:
> 
> Purchases​
> Extensions and what the new residuals and payments will be​
> ...


It's not just assistance with flooring expense, they need to provide assistance to the dealers based on depreciation over the period of time the cars just sit there. And what about assistance with storage costs? Some dealers, especially in central city areas, may be paying quite a bit to lease off-premises storage space for excess inventory. Those expenses can be astronomical in certain cities.

This is something that becomes a really big issue if this drags on for a year or more. I can't even begin to imagine how much this is costing BMW. If you add the 840,000 to the 765,000 BMW has already recalled due to Takata airbags, that makes a total of 1,605,000 BMWs on recall due to Takata airbags. And some auto manufacturers have many more cars than that on recall.

On top of all that, BMW is going to end up bearing all of the costs of fixing these cars. There is no way that Takata can cover the costs of this recall. It's already up to 29-30 million and could go higher. What about the lawsuits that will name Takata? Takata is toast. They will need to go BK and then ask Honda and their other major customers to help them continue in business.

I suspect BMW has had just about enough of those guys, which is why they are "developing" a replacement airbag inflator module. Is there enough capacity available in the other half dozen or so major airbag manufacturers to not only take care of their own increased business but also produce replacement modules for the faulty Takata airbags?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

AksNasZasNas said:


> The answer to each of your questions is yes. The recalled cars now have diminished value. BMW's recourse (as well as all other affected manufacturers) is to go after Tanaka for the resulting damages. Ultimate fault may not be BMW's, but it does remain liable for damages now that disclosure has been made.
> 
> From a consumer perspective, I have no doubt that BMW will seek to make the consumer as whole as possible whether through loaners, MF reductions, loyalty discounts, etc etc. But it is important for each manufacturer to understand each possible way that a consumer has been undercut by way of this recall.


Takata is preparing to file for bankruptcy.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Here's a clue for anybody who is thinking of switching to a different brand because of this Takata airbag recall. BMW has 1,605,000 BMWs on recall because of Takata airbags but be sure to avoid all of these other brands, too.

Mercedes: 847,627
Audi: 170,000

Lexus
Infiniti
Acura
And a long list of others. Oh, not that you would be interested in a Honda, but just in case you are, Honda has *8.54 million* cars recalled for Takata airbags. Here's another one you may not be interested in considering, but just in case, Chrysler has a total of *5.64 million* on recall but that includes the Sprinter van which is built by Daimler.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Ninong said:


> Takata is preparing to file for bankruptcy.


Recognizing that there is a difference between contracts and strict products liability, a seller or manufacturer does not avoid consumer liability merely because a component manufacturer (Takata) is ultimately at fault.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Ninong said:


> Here's a clue for anybody who is thinking of switching to a different brand because of this Takata airbag recall. BMW has 1,605,000 BMWs on recall because of Takata airbags but be sure to avoid all of these other brands, too.
> 
> Mercedes: 847,627
> 
> ...


Anyone leaving BMW over this is missing the point.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

AksNasZasNas said:


> Recognizing that there is a difference between contracts and strict products liability, a seller or manufacturer does not avoid consumer liability merely because a component manufacturer (Takata) is ultimately at fault.


That was just an FYI to your comment that BMW's recourse is to go after Takata for the resulting damages. I just want to point out that Takata won't have the money to pay anything close to the damages caused by this mess.

Yes, I'm sure we all know how product liability laws work, especially something involving a defect that would have caused the buyer to not buy the product in the first place had he been aware of this defect.

Here's what I call gutsy on Takata's part -- asking Honda for a $200,000,000 loan to help tide them over a little longer while they try to figure a way out of this mess after already sticking Honda with 8.51 million cars that have been recalled for Takata airbags.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Ninong said:


> That was just an FYI to your comment that BMW's recourse is to go after Takata for the resulting damages. I just want to point out that Takata won't have the money to pay anything close to the damages caused by this mess.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure we all know how product liability laws work, especially something involving a defect that would have caused the buyer to not buy the product in the first place had he been aware of this defect.
> 
> Here's what I call gutsy on Takata's part -- asking Honda for a $200,000,000 loan to help tide them over a little longer while they try to figure a way out of this mess after already sticking Honda with 8.51 million cars that have been recalled for Takata airbags.


The fact that Takata may go bankrupt only means that the manufacturers have no recourse for losses they caused. The manufacturers remain liable to the consumers for those losses.


----------



## cBeam (Sep 6, 2006)

I am still learning about this issue, but as I mentioned earlier I do not see a good outcome for me as owner of a probably affected car knowing what I know as of now.
Searching the web I was trying to find other manufacturers taking measures like BMW takes: stopping the sales of affected cars which in turn makes trade-ins difficult to impossible, and diminishes the value of our cars.

I found that Honda NA plans to reimburse dealers for cars they cannot sell or have to sell for less money, no word that owners are compensated.
I also found reports dated Feb 2016 where Daimler Benz states that they'll recall 841,000 vehicles in the US, and they expect it will cost them $384 Mio, that is about $450 per vehicle. I could not find a mention of a sales stop, nor could I find an estimate how long it would take them to rectify the problem.
Then it seems that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) gives Takata until end of 2018 (!!!) to resolve the problem.

This is a huge mess. If it is serious, then we should stop to use affected cars now. If it is not serious then we should be able to buy and sell these cars as before.

I guess I will have to wait until we see BMW's recall letter to consumers. As it stands right now a double message is sent by NHTSA, BMW, and maybe others: We won't sell these cars because they are dangerous, but please keep driving the cars for a few years longer because these cars are not dangerous. Go figure.


----------



## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

cBeam said:


> We won't sell these cars because they are dangerous, but please keep driving the cars for a few years longer because these cars are not dangerous. Go figure.


The big issue is liability. It is heightened if they sell the cars knowingly with the risk. For current owners, they are preparing contingencies. They can't magically offer everyone a new airbag instantly - else they would.

It's all about risk management.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

chrischeung said:


> The big issue is liability. It is heightened if they sell the cars knowingly with the risk. For current owners, they are preparing contingencies. They can't magically offer everyone a new airbag instantly - else they would.
> 
> It's all about risk management.


That makes sense. The first step of managing risk is to reduce the number of affected cars on the road, so issuing stop sale and holding trade and lease returns are ways to achieve that.

Also, although there are only 7-10 cases so far, the probability % of injury whenever these airbags deploy probably is not small, hence the broad stroke responses from automakers.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> That makes sense. The first step of managing risk is to reduce the number of affected cars on the road, so issuing stop sale and holding trade and lease returns are ways to achieve that.
> 
> Also, although there are only 7-10 cases so far, the probability % of injury whenever these airbags deploy probably is not small, hence the broad stroke responses from automakers.


Yes, I believed the confirmed deaths due to exploding Takata airbag inflators is either 7 or 10 depending on who's keeping score. I believe all of those except one are in the Deep South, two in Louisiana that I am aware of.

So I guess that's 10 deaths out of approximately 30-34 million recalled so far in the U.S. but with another possible 70 million or more if they recall all Takata-equipped vehicles.

Did you know that on average 33 people die in the U.S. every year from lightning strikes? What about crossing the street? How many people are killed each year crossing the street? 4,500. What about riding a bike? 726 people are killed every year while riding a bike.

What are your chances of winning more than $1 million in the Powerball? Well, let's see, on Jan. 14, 2016, there were 70 winning tickets worth $1 million or more and three tickets that split a $1.6 billion jackpot.

Enough of that nonsense, what are you chances of having your BMW's Takata airbag inflator fail and cause death or serious injury? So far BMW is not aware of any Takata airbags that have ever failed in any of their cars. Has that been tested? As a matter of fact, yes.

Since May 1, 2015 more than 27,000 Takata airbags from recalled cars that have been tested and following are the failure rates by car brand. BMW airbags tested failed 0.07% of the time. The 2001-2006 Honda Civic and 2003 Accord: 0.51% failure rate. So what was the highest failure rate found? The 2003-2007 Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, Pontiac Vibe, and 2004-2007 Honda Accord: 2.16% failure rate. That article was May 27, 2015 so there may be more results since then. Of the recalled airbags that failed, all came from the Deep South states or Puerto Rico but five of them came from Illinois and Pennsylvania.

Remember, BMW said they are not aware of any injuries or deaths caused by a Takata airbag in any of their cars.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

namelessman said:


> That makes sense. The first step of managing risk is to reduce the number of affected cars on the road, so issuing stop sale and holding trade and lease returns are ways to achieve that.
> 
> Also, although there are only 7-10 cases so far, the probability % of injury whenever these airbags deploy probably is not small, hence the broad stroke responses from automakers.


Death is the worst thing that can happen but not the only bad result from a known faulty air bag modulator.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

Just got off the phone with BMW FS rep and they offered me two month extension. I was told that my monthly payment, net sales tax, would be counted my residual later should they allow me to purchase the car after the 2 month period. They also mentioned that they would extend the mileage as well. I asked if I would have priority to a replacement part during the 2 months so that it would allow me to purchase the car at the end of the 2 month period, he said yes, people who wish to purchase their cars but can't due to the sale halt would have priority. He said they are trying to put a program in place to resolve this and satisfy the customers who are affected. I received an electronic letter immediately after the call confirming my lease has been extended so now I am a bit relieved...keeping fingers crossed however and putting backup plans in place!


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

AksNasZasNas said:


> Death is the worst thing that can happen but not the only bad result from a known faulty air bag modulator.


Yes, as of Nov '15 there have been 92 other instances of deployment that injured people.

~M~


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> Oops! I forgot to address something else in your question. BMW did not halt the trade in of cars affected by this air bag recall. That statement in the title of the thread is incorrect. Dealers are not prohibited from taking them in trade, they are just prohibited from selling them with an open stop-sale order on them until after the repairs have been done. .


Sorry Ninong bu here in New Jersey there is no a single BMW dealer that will accept an airbag recalled car as a trade in. I already confirmed with several, and tried to do in person and was told that until the recall on the car is closed they can't accept it as a trade in.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

ccyippy said:


> Just got off the phone with BMW FS rep and they offered me two month extension. I was told that my monthly payment, net sales tax, would be counted my residual later should they allow me to purchase the car after the 2 month period. They also mentioned that they would extend the mileage as well. I asked if I would have priority to a replacement part during the 2 months so that it would allow me to purchase the car at the end of the 2 month period, he said yes, people who wish to purchase their cars but can't due to the sale halt would have priority. He said they are trying to put a program in place to resolve this and satisfy the customers who are affected. I received an electronic letter immediately after the call confirming my lease has been extended so now I am a bit relieved...keeping fingers crossed however and putting backup plans in place!


That is good news


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

Quatro40 said:


> Sorry Ninong bu here in New Jersey there is no a single BMW dealer that will accept an airbag recalled car as a trade in. I already confirmed with several, and tried to do in person and was told that until the recall on the car is closed they can't accept it as a trade in.


This is false. They can, they just don't want to.

Tim


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Yes, as of Nov '15 there have been 92 other instances of deployment that injured people.
> 
> ~M~


Thanks for the info. The stats are piling up and not looking good.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Yes, as of Nov '15 there have been 92 other instances of deployment that injured people.
> 
> ~M~


But absolutely none of those were in a BMW. So far, BMW is not aware of any exploding airbag inflators causing either death or injury in any BMW. And, if you look at Takata's testing of recalled airbags, the failure rate for Takata airbags in BMWs was 0.07%. Several other brands were in that same bracket, which was the lowest found. The highest failure rate they found was 2.16% (a rate much higher than any of their previously claimed test results that Honda now says Takata "misrepresented and manipulated"). The second highest failure rate tested was 0.51%.

All of the reported deaths so far, except for one, happened in hot humid climates of the Deep South and Puerto Rico and all of them involved cars that were several years old. Apparently the stable ammonium nitrate degrades over time (~6 years or more) and it is more likely to degrade in hot humid climates. Of the tested airbags that were recalled, virtually all of those that failed were reclaimed from cars in hot humid climates, except for five of them from Illinois and Pennsylvania.

I think the reason all those BMWs (1,605,000) have been recalled is because they have inflator modules similar to the ones that failed in other makes. Anyway, once they get notified by the NHTSA that their airbags are suspect, they're supposed to take corrective action without having to wait for a formal recall order from the NHTSA.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Quatro40 said:


> Sorry Ninong bu here in New Jersey there is no a single BMW dealer that will accept an airbag recalled car as a trade in. I already confirmed with several, and tried to do in person and was told that until the recall on the car is closed they can't accept it as a trade in.


Are all of these dealers owned by the same conglomerate? I know Tim posted its false that they cant accept them, but if they are ALL choosing not to, then its basically the same thing as "cant" for the end user customer.

That almost sounds like all of those local dealers got together and colluded to say "None of us are going to take these, so none of us get extra "damage" from them".

Are you able to go to dealers outside of New Jersey?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

jjrandorin said:


> Are all of these dealers owned by the same conglomerate? I know Tim posted its false that they cant accept them, but if they are ALL choosing not to, then its basically the same thing as "cant" for the end user customer.
> 
> That almost sounds like all of those local dealers got together and colluded to say "None of us are going to take these, so none of us get extra "damage" from them".
> 
> Are you able to go to dealers outside of New Jersey?


They all told me that BMW NA told them in the same stop sale memo to stop taking in trade ins.

This trade in stop doesn't only affect BMW it affects all brands affected by the recall and dealers networks for other brands. Example, you want to trade in your recalled affected BMW for an Acura. The Acura dealer won't take in you trade.

Yes, for us the end consumer it means not trade ins. In essence the only way to sell the car is privately.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Quatro40 said:


> They all told me that BMW NA told them in the same stop sale memo to stop taking in trade ins.
> 
> This trade in stop doesn't only affect BMW it affects all brands affected by the recall and dealers networks for other brands. Example, you want to trade in your recalled affected BMW for an Acura. The Acura dealer won't take in you trade.
> 
> Yes, for us the end consumer it means not trade ins. In essence the only way to sell the car is privately.


Ok.. but what others are saying here (including tim and michael, who both work at BMW dealerships I believe) is that the dealers were NOT told they "CANT" take the cars in trade. They were told they "CANT" sell them, but it is up to them whether they take them in trade or not.

It appears to me that all of your local dealers are trying to shift blame for not taking your trade in to "BMW", and not themselves, so they (hopefully) dont piss you off as a customer.

From what others are saying however, they COULD take them if they wanted to.. they just dont want to. All of the other manufacturer dealers (like trading in at a mercedes dealership for example) would also not want them, because they dont want to store them.

In effect, "CANT" and "WONT" end up being the same for YOU the customer, but are not necessarily the same for them... because they might choose to take someone elses car in trade... like the poster that had an 1M with a much higher value than the residual.... bet they would take THAT one in, or any like it....


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

ccyippy said:


> Just got off the phone with BMW FS rep and they offered me two month extension. I was told that my monthly payment, net sales tax, would be counted my residual later should they allow me to purchase the car after the 2 month period. They also mentioned that they would extend the mileage as well. I asked if I would have priority to a replacement part during the 2 months so that it would allow me to purchase the car at the end of the 2 month period, he said yes, people who wish to purchase their cars but can't due to the sale halt would have priority. He said they are trying to put a program in place to resolve this and satisfy the customers who are affected. I received an electronic letter immediately after the call confirming my lease has been extended so now I am a bit relieved...keeping fingers crossed however and putting backup plans in place!


I also just call and they also offered me the two months extension without any questions and said that they are working on a solution for us to buy out the car at lease end once they resolve their "legal" matter regarding this mess...

So there is hope...


----------



## zx10guy (Jan 27, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> The more I think about my conversation with the BMW FS, the more ridiculous it sounded to me...I find it very hard to believe that the "federal government", i.e., NHTSA, would tell BMW to halt sale of impacted vehicles. I think this is BMW's policy on how they want to deal with the recall and the lack of parts to repair all the vehicles in time. While I applaud their effort in trying to get as many impacted cars off of the road as possible for the safety of their customers, they need to also own up to the fact that their policy will affect people financially and provide adequate remedies to make sure customers are not worse off. I am not talking about "phantom equity" here that really can't be determined w/o deeper analysis of the market's supply and demand, people's perception of safety and the brand, and each car's condition and likely fair market value w/o the recall. Instead, I am talking about payments leased car owners now need to make because they can't purchase the car: extended lease payments, disposition fee, extra wear and tear fee, etc. and then having to get a another car when we would rather pay the expected residual and purchase the leased vehicles.
> 
> It would be interesting to find out whether VW halted sale of leased diesel cars to when they asked dealers to halt sale of diesel cars on their lots after EPA found them at fault but did not require them to issue a recall yet.


Believe it. I made a post a few pages back about my personal experience with a safety recall and wanting to buy a vehicle. In my situation it was a Ducati 848 motorcycle. I was searching all over for a white one. My dealer was able to locate the last one Ducati had still in the crate sitting in a warehouse. It was sent down to my dealer and during the delivery prep, the dealer found out it was part of the fuel line recall. The dealer immediate called me and said I couldn't come in as planned to complete the paper work and take delivery of my bike until the recall was done. The delivery was delayed for days as the part had to be sent from Italy via boat since Ducati doesn't have a parts warehouse states side anymore.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> The more I think about my conversation with the BMW FS, the more ridiculous it sounded to me...I find it very hard to believe that the "federal government", i.e., NHTSA, would tell BMW to halt sale of impacted vehicles. I think this is BMW's policy on how they want to deal with the recall and the lack of parts to repair all the vehicles in time.


If you read the NHTSA's authority description, you will see that the way this happens is that the manufacturer (Takata) is obligated by law to notify the NHTSA of suspected problems. Then the NHTSA has to notify the car manufacturer that they have been notified by the parts manufacturer of a suspected problem with this part. The car manufacturer is required by law to heed this notification and take all responsible measures to mitigate the problem while the NHTSA conducts their investigation, which takes time. Once the NHTSA has completed their investigation, they will notify the car manufacturer of their determination. If necessary, the NHTSA can order the car manufacturer to issue a recall but that usually doesn't happen until after the NHTSA has completed their investigation. In the meantime the car manufacturers issue a voluntary recall based on the notification they received from both the parts supplier (Takata) and the NHTSA. If they don't, the NHTSA can force them to issue a recall but only after the NHTSA has completed their investigation.

Recently the NHTSA notified the manufacturers that they were investigating whether there was sufficient evidence to order a recall of another 70-90 million cars on the road in the U.S. with Takata airbags. Once they complete that investigation, they will issue a determination. So far they have not found sufficient evidence to issue such a recall but that could change because they are still investigating the issue.

The dieselgate issue is similar but different in one very crucial respect and that is that none of the occupants of the car are likely to die in an accident caused by excessive NOx emissions. A much more informative comparison would be to see what all of the other car manufacturers have been doing due to this Takata airbag fiasco. There are a total of 14 different manufacturers on the list that have cars on the road in the U.S. that are part of the 29-30 million in the recall.



> While I applaud their effort in trying to get as many impacted cars off of the road as possible for the safety of their customers, they need to also own up to the fact that their policy will affect people financially and provide adequate remedies to make sure customers are not worse off.


Either that or figure a way out of this within the next few weeks. I doubt there is any way any car manufacturer can absorb the costs you're talking about. BMW now has 1,605,000 cars on the road in the U.S. that are under recall for Takata airbags. Check around to see what Mercedes is doing. I haven't done that.



> It would be interesting to find out whether VW halted sale of leased diesel cars to when they asked dealers to halt sale of diesel cars on their lots after EPA found them at fault but did not require them to issue a recall yet.


The initial response was different depending on whether it was a VW dealership or an Audi dealership but I believe now they are all under stop-sale orders for every car on the recall list, both new and used. If the dealer has it in his possession, he must move it to storage and not sell it until the stop-sale order is lifted or the car is fixed. I would imagine that those dealers face the same issue when it comes to late model trade-ins that are on the list. Once they get them in their possession, they can't resell them. You would have to ask a VW dealer about how that's working out for them.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

Anyone in Ca receive a recall letter? Or any other state? My X5 lease is up in October and I would like to request a loaner. I don't feel comfortable driving a recalled airbag vehicle. Yes the odds are low of an incident, but they wouldn't be in the recall nightmare if it wasn't possible to cause harm. Btw, southern Ca gets pretty darn warm for many months, at least 5 months. I don't know if it's just the humidity or just the heat that affects the airbag, or both? How did they come up with that anyway? The only way to truly find out would be with controlled environmental testing. I would think there are too many variables to just going with a few states that had incidents. It could just be statistical randomness, just as it can be statistical randomness to have one of these airbags explode on you.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

socal59 said:


> Anyone in Ca receive a recall letter? Or any other state? My X5 lease is up in October and I would like to request a loaner. I don't feel comfortable driving a recalled airbag vehicle. Yes the odds are low of an incident, but they wouldn't be in the recall nightmare if it wasn't possible to cause harm. Btw, southern Ca gets pretty darn warm for many months, at least 5 months. I don't know if it's just the humidity or just the heat that affects the airbag, or both? How did they come up with that anyway? The only way to truly find out would be with controlled environmental testing. I would think there are too many variables to just going with a few states that had incidents. It could just be statistical randomness, just as it can be statistical randomness to have one of these airbags explode on you.


They don't explode on you, you have to be involved in a vehicle accident that causes them to explode. There has been 10 deaths and 92 injuries because of this. There is no statistical randomness. The manufacturer Takata has been hiding the problem since 1994. They failed to add a desiccant to the ammunition nitrate propellant making it more explosive thus sending metal high velocity metal shrapnel to your chest, neck, face area akin of getting shot with a shot gun point blank on those areas.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

Quatro40 said:


> They don't explode on you, you have to be involved in a vehicle accident that causes them to explode. There has been 10 deaths and 92 injuries because of this. There is no statistical randomness. The manufacturer Takata has been hiding the problem since 1994. They failed to add a desiccant to the ammunition nitrate propellant making it more explosive thus sending metal high velocity metal shrapnel to your chest, neck, face area akin of getting shot with a shot gun point blank on those areas.


Yes Quatro, I have read the whole thread and understand what happens. Yes, I also understand you have to be in accident for them to explode or be shot by a shotgun or you can use whatever descriptive you want.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

ccyippy said:


> The more I think about my conversation with the BMW FS, the more ridiculous it sounded to me...I find it very hard to believe that the "federal government", i.e., NHTSA, would tell BMW to halt sale of impacted vehicles. I think this is BMW's policy on how they want to deal with the recall and the lack of parts to repair all the vehicles in time. While I applaud their effort in trying to get as many impacted cars off of the road as possible for the safety of their customers, they need to also own up to the fact that their policy will affect people financially and provide adequate remedies to make sure customers are not worse off. I am not talking about "phantom equity" here that really can't be determined w/o deeper analysis of the market's supply and demand, people's perception of safety and the brand, and each car's condition and likely fair market value w/o the recall. Instead, I am talking about payments leased car owners now need to make because they can't purchase the car: extended lease payments, disposition fee, extra wear and tear fee, etc. and then having to get a another car when we would rather pay the expected residual and purchase the leased vehicles.
> 
> It would be interesting to find out whether VW halted sale of leased diesel cars to when they asked dealers to halt sale of diesel cars on their lots after EPA found them at fault but did not require them to issue a recall yet.


It could be worst. If you don't like the outcome just give the car back. Very simple.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

angler said:


> It could be worst. If you don't like the outcome just give the car back. Very simple.


Yes, this is one of those cases where leasing would have been the much better option. I certainly wish I had. If I ever do get another BMW, I will definitely be leasing it. They are a lease only brand IMHO.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Letters started being mailed yesterday 3/14/16 and will continue being mailed until 3/21/16.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

socal59 said:


> How did they come up with that anyway?


Two ways: they know that all of the fatalities have occurred in the Deep South or Puerto Rico except for one. Last year they tested tens of thousands of airbags that were recalled and determined that all of the failures, except for five, were in the Coastal South or Puerto Rico. Those five were in Illinois and Pennsylvania. The highest failure rate was just over 2% and the lowest failure rate was 0.07% and that bracket included BMW. They concluded from their testing that certain inflator modules were not properly designed and that stable ammonium nitrate has a tendency to degrade over time in hot humid climates. Usually the failures show up in cars that are at least six years old and located in the Gulf Coast states, plus Georgia and South Carolina, as well as Puerto Rico, Guam, and other tropical territories.

BMW has reported that so far they are not aware of any deaths or injuries resulting for exploding inflator modules in any of their cars. However, Takata notified the NHTSA which of their inflator modules they had determined did not conform to the very strict safety requirements required and then the NHTSA notified the car manufacturers which Takata inflator modules on now on that list. If the manufacturers do not take remedial action voluntarily, then the NHTSA can order them to issue a recall once the NHTSA completes their investigation. However, the car manufacturer is required to take immediate action to safeguard the safety of their customers.

Remember that the law requires that the car manufacturer be responsible for performing all safety recalls. He must train and supervise the work of his dealers' service departments to make sure the work is done properly using the proper parts supplied by the car manufacturer and the techniques ordered by the car manufacturer.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Recently the NHTSA notified the manufacturers that they were investigating whether there was sufficient evidence to order a recall of another 70-90 million cars on the road in the U.S. with Takata airbags. Once they complete that investigation, they will issue a determination. So far they have not found sufficient evidence to issue such a recall but that could change because they are still investigating the issue.


Just imagine BMW swaps affected cars with loaners, which eventually also happen to be part of the additional 70-90 million cars.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

One thing that I think some people who are talking about not wanting to drive their cars anymore need to remember is that you have to be involved in a collision that causes the driver's airbag to inflate first. After that happens, you have 7 chances out of 10,000 inflated airbags that yours will have a defective inflator, based on the testing so far.

Another thing to remember is that so far BMW is not aware of any deaths or injuries in any of their cars resulting from defective airbag inflators. However, once the NHTSA adds that particular model Takata inflator module to the list, BMW must take action before receiving a formal order from the NHTSA requiring a recall. That's the law. The formal order to recall is issued if the manufacturer fails to take voluntary action.

According to Edmunds.com, Takata already has 34 million recalled cars in the U.S. alone not counting millions recalled elsewhere, especially Japan. Even the ones in the U.S. amount to $17 billion worth of recalls at $500 each. The Senate is considering a bill requiring Takata to recall another 70 million or more additional cars, bringing the total potential cost to $52 billion or more.

Takata is broke. They are already being sued by the estates of the 10 known fatalities and approximately 100 additional parties who were injured. They have been fined $70 million by the NHTSA with a contingent additional $130 million fine if they fail to make all of the necessary repairs. They are legally required to reimburse the car manufacturers for the cost of the recall but none of the car manufacturers expects that they will ever see much of a reimbursement, if any. Even if you estimate that each recalled BMW is costing BMW about $2,500 including consequential costs, that works out to more than $4 billion. And BMW has only 1.6 million cars in the U.S. that have been recalled. What about Honda and Chrysler that each have several million cars on recall?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Just imagine BMW swaps affected cars with loaners, which eventually also happen to be part of the additional 70-90 million cars.


I hate to imagine how much this is costing BMW already with just the 1.6 million they have had to recall. The NHTSA is leaning toward not ordering the recall of those additional cars but a few U.S. senators are proposing a bill that would force the NHTSA to recall every Takata airbag still on the road in the U.S.

Even if you calculate BMW's total expense at only $1,500 each, 1.605 million cars equals $2.4 billion. BMW had another record year in 2015 and another record profit of 6 billion euros ($6.6 billion), but $2.4 billion is more than a third of what they earned last year. BMW's stock is currently down about 34% from its high in March 2015. Of course it could be worse if you were holding VW stock because it's down more than 50% from it's 52-week high. Daimler is down about 32% from its 52-week high. All of the German car manufacturers are down substantially from where they were this time last year. This Takata airbag mess is just going to cause their stock prices to fall even more.

I expect Takata to file for bankruptcy protection within a few weeks at most. They can't possibly cover the costs of the cars already in the recall process.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> One thing that I think some people who are talking about not wanting to drive their cars anymore need to remember is that you have to be involved in a collision that causes the driver's airbag to inflate first. After that happens, you have 7 chances out of 10,000 inflated airbags that yours will have a defective inflator, based on the testing so far.


It is ironic that a device that is supposed to save lives can end up being life-threatening. The BMW's 0.07% failure rate is not too comforting neither given the inflators are the same PSDI-5 as Honda's 2.1% failure, right?

In the meantime, the best approach probably is to be extra cautious to minimize the chance of airbag deployment, and that in general is life saving regardless of faulty airbag or not.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It is ironic that a device that is supposed to save lives can end up being life-threatening. The BMW's 0.07% failure rate is not too comforting neither given the inflators are the same PSDI-5 as Honda's 2.1% failure, right?


No, they're not the same as Honda's. According to the testing Takata did on thousands of recalled airbags, the models used by BMW are in a group that tested the lowest of all, 0.07% failure rate. There are several manufacturers in that bracket. That 2.16% failure rate was the highest tested. The second highest tested was 0.51% failure rate and the lowest tested was 0.07% failure rate, based on an article published May 27, 2015 after Takata reported the results of testing 27,000 recalled airbags. They have probably tested more since then and that's probably what has resulted in additional model numbers being added to the recall list.



> In the meantime, the best approach probably is to be extra cautious to minimize the chance of airbag deployment, and that in general is life saving regardless of faulty airbag or not.


How many BMWs have a frontal collision in the U.S. every year? Well, out of every 10,000 of those with an inflated driver-side airbag, approximately 7 people could be injured by a defective inflator module. How many people are killed crossing the street in the U.S. every year: 4,500. Do not cross the street ever again.


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Has Takata-San committed Hara Kiri yet?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> No, they're not the same as Honda's. According to the testing Takata did on thousands of recalled airbags, the models used by BMW are in a group that tested the lowest of all, 0.07% failure rate. There are several manufacturers in that bracket. That 2.16% failure rate was the highest tested. The second highest tested was 0.51% failure rate and the lowest tested was 0.07% failure rate, based on an article published May 27, 2015 after Takata reported the results of testing 27,000 recalled airbags. They have probably tested more since then and that's probably what has resulted in additional model numbers being added to the recall list.
> 
> How many BMWs have a frontal collision in the U.S. every year? Well, out of every 10,000 of those with an inflated driver-side airbag, approximately 7 people could be injured by a defective inflator module. How many people are killed crossing the street in the U.S. every year: 4,500. Do not cross the street ever again.


So does that mean the BMW airbags are PSDI-5 version 2.0 with 0.07% failure rate, while the 2.16% failure group is PSDI-5 version 0.0? It would be good to know that detail.

Well, as far as crossing the street, caution and prudence usually help, a lot!  Also note that certain rear end and side collisions can trigger airbag deployments.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

How many are killed by motor vehicles while crossing the street every year in the U.S.: 4,500. How many pedestrians were killed by motor vehicles in the U.S. in 2013: 4,735. How many pedestrians sustained injuries in 2013: 66,000. Do not go for a walk ever again and never cross the street. Period. That's out from now on. 

How many people die in car accidents in the U.S.? In 2013 that number was 33,561. Stay out of a car. Period. It's too dangerous. You might be killed.  

Fifteen percent of the drivers who killed a pedestrian were drunk at the time. If you do go for a walk, look out for drunk drivers. Thirty-four percent of pedestrians who were killed by a motor vehicle were themselves drunk at the time. Never ever go for a walk if you have been drinking. 

How many people are killed every year while riding a bicycle? 743 in 2013. How many people are injured while riding a bicycle? 48,000 in 2013. Stay away from bikes. How many people die falling out of bed every year: 450. That's not the number of people who die in bed, that's the number who die because they fell out of bed and sustained fatal injuries. Stay out of bed.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> So does that mean the BMW airbags are PSDI-5 version 2.0 with 0.07% failure rate, while the 2.16% failure group is PSDI-5 version 0.0? It would be good to know that detail.
> 
> Well, as far as crossing the street, caution and prudence usually help, a lot!  Also note that certain rear end and side collisions can trigger airbag deployments.


You could Google for that exact number if you are interested. I don't remember seeing it, just the published results from the first 27,000 recalled airbags that were tested by Takata in May 2015. Even if you accept the highest failure rate (that did not include BMW), it was 2.16%, that's 2 out of every 100 inflated airbags. You have to be in some sort of accident first and then your chances of being injured by the airbag inflator would be 1 in 46 inflated airbags, assuming you were in one of those particular cars (mostly older Hondas and Toyotas). Of the type listed for BMW, your chances would be 7 out of every 10,000 inflated airbags, assuming your car was at least six years old and you lived in a hot humid climate like Houston or New Orleans or Miami or San Juan.

How many people in the U.S. die every year falling off a ladder: 355. How many people are killed in the U.S. every year by falling icicles: 15. How many people are killed every year worldwide by hippos: 2,900. Fortunately we don't have any hippos here. How many Americans die every year from a bee sting: 100. How many people are killed every year by a falling coconut: 150.

You have a much better chance of being killed by a falling icicle than you do of being killed by a defective airbag inflator in your BMW because so far no one has been killed or injured by a defective airbag inflator in their BMW to the best of BMW's knowledge. Do not lose sight of the fact that virtually all of the airbag failures reported in accidents as well as those that were recalled and tested were in cars more than six years old and located in hot humid climates. It takes years for the ammonium nitrate to degrade to the point where it could fail in an accident.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> It takes years for the ammonium nitrate to degrade to the point where it could fail in an accident.


And that's why many of the manufacturers are considering "like for like" replacements in the high humidity areas. Basically place the current inflators Takata has in inventory into the high-risk recall cars, and then have them replaced with the new ones, once developed.

It kinda resets the clock.

~M~


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> No, they're not the same as Honda's. According to the testing Takata did on thousands of recalled airbags, the models used by BMW are in a group that tested the lowest of all, 0.07% failure rate. There are several manufacturers in that bracket. That 2.16% failure rate was the highest tested. The second highest tested was 0.51% failure rate and the lowest tested was 0.07% failure rate, based on an article published May 27, 2015 after Takata reported the results of testing 27,000 recalled airbags. They have probably tested more since then and that's probably what has resulted in additional model numbers being added to the recall list.
> 
> How many BMWs have a frontal collision in the U.S. every year? Well, out of every 10,000 of those with an inflated driver-side airbag, approximately 7 people could be injured by a defective inflator module. How many people are killed crossing the street in the U.S. every year: 4,500. Do not cross the street ever again.


Actually Takata lied on those tests too so the failure rates for the BMW bags are as high as the Honda ones which they also lie about so the failure rate is much much higher.

Thats why the automakers affected by the recall hired an independent Rocket company to test all the recalled inflators that they had on hand and the results were grim. Also why the previous airbag recalls fixes are no good as Takata lied on those too.

Automakers hire rocket firm to probe air bag problems


----------



## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

Regardless of failure rate and the need to be in an accident--- we can't trade in or sell our cars. That's the more important point trying to be made here.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

kjboyd said:


> Regardless of failure rate and the need to be in an accident--- we can't trade in or sell our cars. That's the more important point trying to be made here.


Exactly thats why started the thread to made everyone aware of that!


----------



## cBeam (Sep 6, 2006)

Ninong,
I get your point about the low risk getting injured by a faulty airbag. However I do not find your repeated arguments helpful ("Stay away from bikes, don't cross the streets", otherwise you potentially will die.) I am also not trying to point fingers, however there are some facts that should be considered:
- I did buy a BMW because I wanted a safe car, especially for my wife. If I were not concerned about safety I could have bought a Pinto or a used Yugo and would have saved a ton on money.
- BMW issued a memo telling dealers not to sell cars that have the potential faulty inflators on board.
- To me this means BMW acknowledges that affected cars are less safe!
- For all practical considerations this means my car cannot be traded in at the (BMW) dealership, or - if I can sell / trade in - it means a diminished value.

As I wrote above in this thread I do see no good options that I can control: I can try to sell the car and take the value hit, or I can continue driving the car hoping that nothing bad happens in case the airbag inflates. Both are no good options for me.

There are many people that buy lottery tickets hoping to win. And a few actually win. If you don't want to win the lottery don't buy a lottery ticket. 
I feel BMW just telegraphed to us: If you don't want to be affected by the Takata airbag lottery stop driving affected cars.

And I bet that is exactly what BMW would do if it were not for the huge costs remedying the situation right now.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

cBeam said:


> And I bet that is exactly what BMW would do if it were not for the huge costs remedying the situation right now.


In reviewing all the BMW and independent info I can, I don't believe it's a cost issue, it's a solution issue. Yes, it will cost billions to all dealers, but the current issues are the lack of inflators and the lack of cars to put affected clients into.

And a myriad of other details.

!M!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

cBeam said:


> Ninong,
> I get your point about the low risk getting injured by a faulty airbag. However I do not find your repeated arguments helpful ("Stay away from bikes, don't cross the streets", otherwise you potentially will die.)


Sorry but I thought it obvious that they weren't meant to be "helpful," they were meant to be sarcastic.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> And that's why many of the manufacturers are considering "like for like" replacements in the high humidity areas. Basically place the current inflators Takata has in inventory into the high-risk recall cars, and then have them replaced with the new ones, once developed.
> 
> It kinda resets the clock.
> 
> ~M~


This can be a great interim solution. In fact, since the propellant can degrade overtime, the real solution is to change them out every few years (similar to brake fluid, or fire extinguisher). Engineers(Takata and automakers and NHTSA) need to come up with the guidelines of the interim solution until a permanent alternate design is done.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Today's release to dealers indicates that the initial replacements are planned to begin in summer 2016 and will first target the oldest vehicles in the high absolute humidity (HAH) areas, (e.g. Gulf States.)

~M~


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Today's release to dealers indicates that the initial replacements are planned to begin in summer 2016 and will first target the oldest vehicles in the high absolute humidity (HAH) areas, (e.g. Gulf States.)
> 
> ~M~


Is the planned fix going to be a swap of old PSDI-5 with PSDI-6?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Is the planned fix going to be a swap of old PSDI-5 with PSDI-6?


Not specified, sorry.

~M~


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Today's release to dealers indicates that the initial replacements are planned to begin in summer 2016 and will first target the oldest vehicles in the high absolute humidity (HAH) areas, (e.g. Gulf States.)
> 
> ~M~


Maybe it's the oldest and people that want to buy their car out of lease that gets priority.


----------



## hankdoll (Nov 12, 2005)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Today's release to dealers indicates that the initial replacements are planned to begin in summer 2016 and will first target the oldest vehicles in the high absolute humidity (HAH) areas, (e.g. Gulf States.)
> 
> ~M~


Oh no, my car is one of the newest (2013) in the driest climates (so cal). I was getting ready to order my next car for an ED trip in August. Guess I'll be getting around by train.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Today's release to dealers indicates that the initial replacements are planned to begin in summer 2016 and will first target the oldest vehicles in the high absolute humidity (HAH) areas, (e.g. Gulf States.)
> 
> ~M~


I understand why, given the failures observed, this is the safest way to go but it implies that BMW (or NHTSA) believes the drier climate owned, newer cars are not as much of a concern. If this is so, it seems they might want to consider lifting the no-sale rule in the "safest" environments if, by their actions, they're discriminating against people at the lowest risk. What I mean is, the people who seemingly have the least to worry about, are going to be the ones to take it in the shorts the most financially.

I TOTALLY understand replacing the air bags in the cars of people most at risk (humid and older) because lives need to be protected, but it creates a real problem for those at the end of the line for parts. No winners anywhere.


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

I got a copy of the latest BMW dealer bulletin about this and have added the details to the first post - http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901176

Tim


----------



## Rocguy (Mar 16, 2016)

Ok, advice needed...

Carmax offered me 18,000 for my 2013 X1. KBB gave it a trade value of 21-24. But they had 2 2013 X1s on the lot both for sale for 22,500. 18 is probably not that awful?? I was hoping for 20 to be honest, but they will buy it from me. 

Then, I go to the BMW dealer. Last week I had it in at the Dryer & Reinbold South dealer, where the service people told me I couldn't trade it in. Well, Carmax was near D&R North (this is all Indianapolis) so I went there today and I told the sales guy I just came from Carmax since I knew they couldn't do a trade for me. But he said they could. The other people were wrong, They offered me the exact 18,000 to trade in. Which would be a better deal when figuring paying less tax. He said they already have 30-40 cars they can't sell but they are just sitting on them. I told him my fear of having it be 2+ years before the recall can get done and my car value will be nothing and he said hogwash. The recall will be done and it won't affect value... Against everything that I'm reading...

Do I take their 18 and run since I actually found a dealer to trade it? Originally I wanted to keep mine for another 2 years and trade then. I'm already bummed it's only worth 18 tho! I LIKE my current car. I ordered it to my specifications. I'm happy driving it. I just don't want to be stuck with it or it be worth nothing. So I'm not sure what to do. To make it slightly more complicated I'm not even sure if I'd get a 2016 X1 or just get a new Clubman S from Mini. It's really X1 like compared to my last Mini! It's the same dealer so it's the same trade amount and offer. 

Other fear is that once BMW starts sending out the actual recall notices a LOT of people will be trying to get out of theirs and this 18 offer might not stand for long. I'm really not ready to buy a new car but I'm afraid I will regret not doing it if I don't act soon...

Anyone?...


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

namelessman said:


> It is ironic that a device that is supposed to save lives can end up being life-threatening. The BMW's 0.07% failure rate is not too comforting neither given the inflators are the same PSDI-5 as Honda's 2.1% failure, right?
> 
> In the meantime, the best approach probably is to be extra cautious to minimize the chance of airbag deployment, and that in general is life saving regardless of faulty airbag or not.


I posted that there is a risk, small, but still a chance/risk. What response do I get? One that sounds like a corporate PR response.

That's my whole point, that there is an element of chance and the possibility is there. Small, as it is, does not negate the chance of it happening.


----------



## JP 99300 (Sep 29, 2004)

Rocguy said:


> Ok, advice needed...
> 
> Do I take their 18 and run since I actually found a dealer to trade it? *Originally I wanted to keep mine for another 2 years and trade then.* I'm already bummed it's only worth 18 tho! *I LIKE my current car. I ordered it to my specifications. I'm happy driving it*. I just don't want to be stuck with it or it be worth nothing. So I'm not sure what to do. To make it slightly more complicated I'm not even sure if I'd get a 2016 X1 or just get a new Clubman S from Mini. It's really X1 like compared to my last Mini! It's the same dealer so it's the same trade amount and offer.
> 
> ...


OK, I'll start. You like it. Why not keep it the planned two more years? I've got to believe this issue will likely be resolved by then. It sounds like you'd only be running out to buy a new car because you think you have to. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a reason to buy that new MINI, well then....


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Rocguy said:


> Ok, advice needed...
> 
> Carmax offered me 18,000 for my 2013 X1. KBB gave it a trade value of 21-24. But they had 2 2013 X1s on the lot both for sale for 22,500. 18 is probably not that awful?? I was hoping for 20 to be honest, but they will buy it from me.
> 
> ...


How much Negative Equity? DO you own outright?

Those are the things I would consider.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

angler said:


> Maybe it's the oldest and people that want to buy their car out of lease that gets priority.


No, this prioritization has been set by NHTSA and all the manufacturers. It's based on risk assessment.

If you want the details on Priority Groups, please open the attached.

~M~


----------



## Rocguy (Mar 16, 2016)

Arciga18 said:


> How much Negative Equity? DO you own outright?
> 
> Those are the things I would consider.


I paid cash so I own outright.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

socal59 said:


> I posted that there is a risk, small, but still a chance/risk. What response do I get? One that sounds like a corporate PR response.
> 
> That's my whole point, that there is an element of chance and the possibility is there. Small, as it is, does not negate the chance of it happening.


The tricky part is this Takata PSDI-5(and possibly PSDI-6?) inflator is so widely used that there are not many new(er) cars that do not have the part. Seeking out older cars as an alternative posts other issues, e.g. those older cars may have bigger safety issues than the Takata airbag. Provided the data of 6-year-old and humid condition are accurate, then maybe it is OK to keep driving the affected vehicles esp. if it is less than 6-year-old and in dry condition, but obviously that is not bulletproof, e.g. have recent heavy downpours hastened the deterioration of the inflator?!? :dunno:


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> No, this prioritization has been set by NHTSA and all the manufacturers. It's based on risk assessment.
> 
> If you want the details on Priority Groups, please open the attached.
> 
> ~M~


Wow, 2014 Ford Mustang's getting them before any >2006 BMW?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> No, this prioritization has been set by NHTSA and all the manufacturers. It's based on risk assessment.
> 
> If you want the details on Priority Groups, please open the attached.
> 
> ~M~


Makes sense, looks like I will get my car fixed in two years. I don't mind leasing for a while but I am not interested in continuing to pay interest on the car when I was going to buy the car outright. Also how do you figure the residual value of the car as time goes by? I wonder what kind of incentives they will come up with in the toolbox. What a s**t show!


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

angler said:


> Makes sense, looks like I will get my car fixed in two years. I don't mind leasing for a while but I am not interested in continuing to pay interest on the car when I was going to buy the car outright. Also how do you figure the residual value of the car as time goes by? I wonder what kind of incentives they will come up with in the toolbox. What a s**t show!


I totally hear you on that extra interest! And let's not forget that vehicle registration you probably also need to pay for just like I already did bcs I thought I could purchase the car!


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> No, this prioritization has been set by NHTSA and all the manufacturers. It's based on risk assessment.
> 
> If you want the details on Priority Groups, please open the attached.
> 
> ~M~


Interesting. The Priority Group One BMW 3ers would be E46s, based in the 2002 - 2006 model years. That matches what I had originally heard about the 3ers affected.

Mine is an '06 E90 and my VIN is now on the list. In addition, prior to my move to Chicago it spent its life in two different HAH areas. I'm tempted to go get myself an F30 or F22 loaner until my airbag can be replaced. hmmmm


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

JP 99300 said:


> OK, I'll start. You like it. Why not keep it the planned two more years? I've got to believe this issue will likely be resolved by then. It sounds like you'd only be running out to buy a new car because you think you have to. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a reason to buy that new MINI, well then....


+1!!!!! Keep it!! With the F48 X1 going to a fwd based setup your E84 X1 is quite literally irreplaceable. And it's just the way you want it.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> Interesting. The Priority Group One BMW 3ers would be E46s, based in the 2002 - 2006 model years. That matches what I had originally heard about the 3ers affected.
> 
> Mine is an '06 E90 and my VIN is now on the list. In addition, prior to my move to Chicago it spent its life in two different HAH areas. I'm tempted to go get myself an F30 or F22 loaner until my airbag can be replaced. hmmmm


It is puzzling that no 5-series(E39/E60) is on the recall list, is there any info which brand of airbag of those used? Also, do F10 and F30 use the same brand of airbags/inflators?


----------



## stub909 (Mar 16, 2016)

Just curious as to why the X6 is not on the prioritization list at all....


I made a deal on a CPO 2013 X6 50i on February 16. I sold my car that night with intentions of taking delivery on the 18th. However, right after I sold my car, BMW calls me and alerts me of the stop sale on X6.  It sucks, as it was loaded with every package and upgrade that I wanted and I've yet to find a similar model with all the right packages.

I am currently living carless and taking public transport for as long as I can, but am stuck if I should lease a car for the next few months hoping that the parts are available. I wish they would have alerted me of the recall sent out earlier in the month before I sold my car. I really want the model I have on hold; however, I'm getting frustrated with BMW as I'm sure many of you are as well. As of now, my only options are to be extremely patient or find one via Carmax or Private Party that checks out and is under the original warranty and then take it in to buy an extended warranty. Unfortunately, I've yet to find a similar model that mirrors the one I have on hold due to the stop sale.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Based on the model years on the list I have a feeling that list was created sometime ago.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Just throwing a data point out there concerning alternate transportation

Reached out to SA in person, who punted me to Service Director, 

First it was - "We need to ask BMW for authorization. We will let you know." This was Monday

Today, I got a call from the GM.

-GM claims he doesn't have any information and is not willing to commit to alternate transportation. He will not allow his service loaners to be used for this safety recall. 
-GM claims that he doesn't want to store cars for customer while they have alternate transportation.
-Current stance is that if you are not a customer he is not willing to help-- He phrased it as I will give people that purchased from my store priority (Fair, but I assume he didn't know I I did purchase from his store.

We agreed that information was still grey and that we should see what we can do when the water clears in the next couple days 


Maybe with BMW footing the bill on some new loaners his stance will change.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It is puzzling that no 5-series(E39/E60) is on the recall list...


The E39 2002-2003 5-series and M5 are on the recall list.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> The E39 2002-2003 5-series and M5 are on the recall list.


It showed up on the priority list(group 2) but not post#1. Also C&R article says 1.6m BMWs are affected, while post#1 says 840k, so when was the list expanded?


----------



## sampatel1 (Sep 8, 2015)

Mine is a 2013 750Li and I don't see it in the list. What airbags are installed on mine? Aren't they the Takata ones? Is there anyone here whose 7 Series is on the recall list?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tturedraider said:


> Based on the model years on the list I have a feeling that list was created sometime ago.


According to the most recent published reports in the NY Times, and others, most of the cars that have been added to the list in the past year or so have been added because Takata testified before Congress that they weren't sure which of their airbags had which inflators.

Don't forget that, according to the NY Times, Takata has repeatedly lied about the problem and that Honda knew there was a problem going all the back to 2004, because one of their 2002 cars with a Takata airbag exploded and injured the driver. Honda first settled a lawsuit due to a defective Takata airbag in 2004. They settled several more similar lawsuits going back to 2007 and 2008. Naturally all settlements had one of those clauses that the plaintiff was required to sign agreeing that they could not disclose the terms of the settlement.

Toyota knew there was a problem years ago, too. Takata kept lying to both Honda and Toyota and blaming sloppy workers for the problem. In fact, there's a lot of truth to that but it wasn't the only cause. Workers at that plant in Mexico that were paid volume bonuses even shut off the auto-reject function on the assembly line to boost production. They allowed 6-8 times the allowable reject rate (60-80 defective parts per 1 million inflators shipped) to pass through and be shipped out. The records were falsified. Takata even conducted their own safety tests in 2004, after that first reported failure in a 2002 Honda, and then destroyed the tests that showed a failure rate higher than allowed and, according to Honda, "misrepresented and manipulated" test results.

Both Takata and the NHTSA have been hauled before Congress for the past few years now and Takata's testimony has constantly changed over the years. It is fair to say that their answers have "evolved" as new evidence came to light disproving their previous explanations. Takata has blamed faulty workmanship, rust, bad welds, improper storage of the propellant at the manufacturing plant(s), and finally hot humid climates that apparently degrade the stable ammonium nitrate propellant over time. I don't think Takata has ever offered a final conclusion of their ever on-going and evolving internal investigations. Their results of their testing of thousands of recalled airbags last summer were that the failures were almost exclusively confined to cars in the Coastal South and Puerto Rico, with only a few in Illinois and Pennsylvania. And almost all of them were in cars that were several years old.

Many of the most recent cars that the NHTSA added to the list were added because Takata couldn't guarantee them that those cars did not contain one of the defective inflators modules. In the most recent consent decree between the NHTSA and Takata, Takata admitted that it have provided the NHTSA with "selective, incomplete or inaccurate data." That one was from November 2015.

As you can see from the NHTSA's latest recall list, a whole slew of BMW models were added just last month: http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takatalist.html Those are the 840,000 BMWs that BMW is in the process of sending out the official recall letters on right now. According to a finding of the NHTSA, the failed airbags that caused injuries and deaths were all seven or more years old; therefore, the NHTSA is authorizing replacement with interim parts that will have to be replaced a second time once production of the newest modules become available.

As far as I know -- and this is just from published article in the media -- BMW is attempting to develop their own replacement modules. I guess they have had just about enough of Takata. The NY Times has been publishing a devastating series of investigative articles on Takata over the past three years.

I know you may not agree with me if you have a car on the recall list but my view is that you have a much better chance of being killed by a lightning strike (33 per year in the U.S.) than you do of being killed or seriously injured by the airbag in your BMW. According to BMW, they know of no reported incidents of injuries caused by defective airbags in any BMW.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

sampatel1 said:


> Mine is a 2013 750Li and I don't see it in the list. What airbags are installed on mine? Aren't they the Takata ones? Is there anyone here whose 7 Series is on the recall list?


Check out the pdf in post#326, that PDF does not have list BMW 7 series.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> It showed up on the priority list(group 2) but not post#1. Also C&R article says 1.6m BMWs are affected, while post#1 says 840k, so when was the list expanded?


Note the Takata Priority List was established in November 2015.

It has not been updated with the newest models. If you go to http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takatalist.html it will show you the original list and highlights with NEW! the added models.

This is your best resource for background info.

Michael


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

sampatel1 said:


> Mine is a 2013 750Li and I don't see it in the list. What airbags are installed on mine? Aren't they the Takata ones? Is there anyone here whose 7 Series is on the recall list?


When did you receive an official recall letter? I'm asking because I don't see your car on the official NHTSA list: http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takatalist.html


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It showed up on the priority list(group 2) but not post#1. Also C&R article says 1.6m BMWs are affected, while post#1 says 840k, so when was the list expanded?


The total, including the latest 840,000 BMWs that were added to the list on Feb. 12, 2016 is now 1,605,000. Here is the NHTSA's latest list including those added on Feb. 12, 2016: http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takatalist.html


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> So it seems BMW values American lives over Canadian ones.
> 
> Thank God for that.
> 
> ...


Is there a Canadian equivalent to the NHTSA in the U.S.? If so, maybe they will issue a recall notice on your car soon? Or maybe not.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Note the Takata Priority List was established in November 2015.
> 
> It has not been updated with the newest models. If you go to http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takatalist.html it will show you the original list and highlights with NEW! the added models.
> 
> ...


This is great info. Let's hope the list will not keep growing.

BTW some coworkers with affected cars check with a local dealer, and the loaners are no-go, as the dealer is concerned that the loaners themselves will be added to the list in the future.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Is there a Canadian equivalent to the NHTSA in the U.S.? If so, maybe they will issue a recall notice on your car soon? Or maybe not.


Transport Canada. Here's what they have listed so far:

2015230	2015/05/27	BMW	3 SERIES	Airbag	2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
2015230	2015/05/27	BMW	5 SERIES	Airbag	2002 2003
2015230	2015/05/27	BMW	X5	Airbag	2003 2004


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Gigitty said:


> I was under the impression that the current stop sale order was due to a voluntary recall by BMWNA.
> 
> If this is the case why do you think BMW values American lives over Canadian?


NHTSA and Fedclaw requires the stop sale on new cars, and BMW has issued franchisee requirement to do the same with used/CPO BMW's.

I can't speak for what's going on in Canada, only the assumption that there isn't an equivalent law on stop sale and/or liability laws are different. Just don't know.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Gigitty said:


> Does the NHTSA and Fedlaw require the stop sale on used and lease buyouts?


No, as stated, that directive has come from BMW.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Gigitty said:


> So why wouldn't BMW do the same in Canada if driving these cars is so dangerous?


My guess is that the data seems to indicate that hot and humid weather hastens the deterioration of the propellant inside the inflator, and BMW decides that Canada's weather conditions do not pose imminent danger to the ones currently left out of the Canada's recall list.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

namelessman said:


> This is great info. Let's hope the list will not keep growing.
> 
> BTW some coworkers with affected cars check with a local dealer, and the loaners are no-go, as the dealer is concerned that the loaners themselves will be added to the list in the future.


More likely the dealer doesn't want to give out loaners for an extended period of time.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Gigitty said:


> This is what my dealer said but I find it odd as the Toronto area has similar weather to many northern cities in the US.
> 
> It can be pretty humid in southern Ontario during the summer periods.


But the summers in Canada are quite short.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

adgrant said:


> More likely the dealer doesn't want to give out loaners for an extended period of time.


And the customer would prefer to not wait months /years for a potentially defective air bag


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Arciga18 said:


> And the customer would prefer to not wait months /years for a potentially defective air bag


Yes, unfortunately it appears the customer does not have a choice and the dealer does.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

adgrant said:


> Yes, unfortunately it appears the customer does not have a choice and the dealer does.


My understanding of the original BMW communication is that dealers _will _provide a loaner/rental (maybe on BMW's dime) if the client feels unsafe in the car. Has anyone actually gotten their notice yet? N4S


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

The loaner rental has to be on their dime. 

If the dealer refuses all you have to do is call BMW NA and ask for one, if they refuse you say you want it in writing and also stating that they accept 100% liability as a result of an airbag inflating in your car and causing injury or death to you or any other person driving the car.

They will put you on hold and then have you on a loaner rental car within the hour. And make sure you demand that if they put you in a rental car it has to be at least same size class as what your are driving now. Don't accept a Honda Fit if you drive an X5.

Then after the 24 months if you financed your car and continue to make payments for the period it took them to fix the car. you can actually sue them back for the payments you made. "Lack of enjoyment of the car that I purchase for the time period of xx months, prevented you from using your personal property for that time, caused undo stress by driving another brand car that you didn't intend to drive at all", etc lawyers are clever!!!


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

Quatro40 said:


> The loaner rental has to be on their dime.
> 
> If the dealer refuses all you have to do is call BMW NA and ask for one, if they refuse you say you want it in writing and also stating that they accept 100% liability as a result of an airbag inflating in your car and causing injury or death to you or any other person driving the car.
> 
> ...


So the loaners are not BMWs? I'll really be pissed if I'm paying for my X5 and they give me even a Passport or Explorer


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

socal59 said:


> So the loaners are not BMWs? I'll really be pissed if I'm paying for my X5 and they give me even a Passport or Explorer


More like a Jeep Compass or Dodge Nitro and only after complaining.


----------



## sampatel1 (Sep 8, 2015)

Has anyone got a rental yet?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

The 2 year loaner/rental posses another problem for owners. 

Your car will be sitting for the next two years that means all 4 tires will develop flat spots and dry rot on side wall from the lack of circulation, rubber will deteriorate and tires will be flat due to weight of the car and gravity.

Another issue is the cars will need every single liquid to be replaced, coolant, power steering, brakes, transmission, transfer case, engine oil, fuel system flush.

Oil, air and cabin filters.

New battery will have to be put in.

Hoses, belts and Gaskets will need to be replaced as well.

New paint job if they leave the outside with no protection, paint will dry and cake under the uv rays.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Quatro40 said:


> The 2 year loaner/rental posses another problem for owners.
> 
> Your car will be sitting for the next two years that means all 4 tires will develop flat spots and dry rot on side wall from the lack of circulation, rubber will deteriorate and tires will be flat due to weight of the car and gravity.
> 
> ...


:bustingup


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Quatro40 said:


> The 2 year loaner/rental posses another problem for owners.
> 
> Your car will be sitting for the next two years that means all 4 tires will develop flat spots and dry rot on side wall from the lack of circulation, rubber will deteriorate and tires will be flat due to weight of the car and gravity.
> 
> ...


Totally understand you are upset, but there is some serious angst in some of your statements. New paint job? There are people who park outside every day for years (I dont but many do).


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

jjrandorin said:


> Totally understand you are upset, but there is some serious angst in some of your statements. New paint job? There are people who park outside every day for years (I dont but many do).


Yes you are correct, but those people wash their cars at least once a month (most likely use car washes that have the liquid wax) and most likely wax by hand their cars at least once a year.

I have always parked outside, but I wash my car every two weeks, quick detail once a month and wax polish every 6 months.

I don't think BMW will do the same.


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

I guess I don't understand what all of those who are b*tching think BWM should do? The bottom line is that BMW AG was screwed by a dishonest supplier, one who will soon be bankrupt, and BMW AG will face extraordinary losses as a result.

Should BMW have follewed the lead of Ford with the Pinto or GM with the ignition switches, and pretended the problem didn't exist?

Should BMW just replace your car with a brand new car of your choosing? Maybe give you another $50,000 of cash each for your inconvenience?

As far as we know, there have been ZERO injuries from faulty inflators installed in BMW. The ONLY party that has actually been harmed to date is BMW AG. And yet, a bunch of whiny, entitled jerks want to call themselves victims, and call in the lawyers.

"But I can't buy my 1M for the ludicrously low residual value, and turn a quick profit at BMW's expense!". Guess what? If a texting teenager had run a red light, T-boned you and totalled your precious little toy, you wouldn't be able to buy it off lease and make a quick profit, either.

The big difference is the teenager was doing something morally reprehensible, while BMW is trying to do the right thing for its customers, even if that means building their own manufacturing plant, so they can be sure the replacement inflators actually are safe.

Grow up, people.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

quackbury said:


> I guess I don't understand what all of those who are b*tching think BWM should do? The bottom line is that BMW AG was screwed by a dishonest supplier, one who will soon be bankrupt, and BMW AG will face extraordinary losses as a result.
> 
> Should BMW have follewed the lead of Ford with the Pinto or GM with the ignition switches, and pretended the problem didn't exist?
> 
> ...


BMW AG is will spend a lot of cash to fix this issue, yes. BMW lawyers and corporate likely ran the numbers and found that it is less expensive in the long run to recall the cars. :dunno: This is better than dealing with X lawsuits. Also, this is ethical, moral, awesome, smart business, and whatever else you want to call it.

Information is still muddy. I don't think that BMW should replace my car with a new one and give me $50K. That's just ridiculous. I don't think anyone here made this demand so it's not an accurate reflection of the thread. (sorry if I missed the post where someone actually thought this was a good idea).

In your accident scenario, I wonder if insurance would pay you fair market value which should still net you a decent profit. We are assuming full coverage is on the policy because it is a Lease as you point out.

The main issue for me is that my wife drives my 2 boys around in the X5. I would rather move into a different vehicle from a safety standpoint than wait for this to get fixed. However, I don't have the means to just eat $10K of negative equity nor do I feel I should bare the burden (I made this number completely up, but it probably close to what the dealer would quote. We just bought the CPO in September, 2015).

BMW can make me whole by not letting me drown in negative equity and giving me a great deal on a new ride. I've owned /leased a total of 4 BMWs so it is obvious I like the brand.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Is the fix going to PSDI-6? If so will PSDI-6 subject to degradation like the PSDI-5? There seems to be a systemic design issue, namely, propellant in metal canister sitting in a cabin subject to high temperature and high humidity. It may be hard(or close to impossible?) to find alternate safe option, except public transportation/bike/walk(each with its own risk).

Is there any info of proposed fix, e.g. is it special propellant, or propellant-free?


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

You bought a CPO and you have negative equity, so why are you saying "It is a Lease as you point out"?

When a Lease car is totalled, the GAP insurance allows you to walk away without any financial liability. BUt you don't make a profit, because YOU DON'T OWN THE CAR, BMWFS DOES.

You bought a used car, and there is something that happened outside the manufacturers control that has diminished its value. If you don't want your wife to drive it, by all accounts BMW will provide you with a FREE replacement / loaner vehicle, until they have the parts to repair your X5. What other used car dealer would do this?

How can anyone complain about this treatment? I have not one but two BMW's impacted by this, and I think anyone who blames BMW for this mess is a greedy, entitled SOB.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

quackbury said:


> It's worth noting that those of us who lease have far less financial exposure. Remember this thread the next time someone claims leasing is a bad financial decision.
> 
> Actually, this issue should actually drive UP used car prices, and drive DOWN new car incentives. If one assumes the demand for vehicles is relatively inelastic, the reduction in supply of available vehicles should drive up transaction prices.
> 
> I imagine used Honda's will be next-to-impossible to find, leading to increased Kia and Hyundai sales. Maybe buying some stock in Hyundai Motor Group is a good play?


I have to say that I agree with you 100%.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Gigitty said:


> Agreed but I think BMW understands this, they're just trying to mitigate the risk as they obviously can't finance the alternative.


And the current policy(e.g. rentals for 1.6m affected cars for up to 2 years) can't be financed neither.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

namelessman said:


> And the current policy(e.g. rentals for 1.6m affected cars for up to 2 years) can't be financed neither.


I think BMW is probably expediting a fix of their own so that these cars can be repaired quickly.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

If you think this thread is bad wait to see the hysteria when 1.6 million letters go out as most people have no idea about this recall.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> I think BMW is probably expediting a fix of their own so that these cars can be repaired quickly.


Hopefully that's what they meant when they said they were developing their own replacement modules; but some automotive news writers have speculated that could take up to 24 months.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> If you think this thread is bad wait to see the hysteria when 1.6 million letters go out as most people have no idea about this recall.


This recall letter is going out to 840,000 customers. The other 765,000 customers are the ones who have already received airbag defect recall letters over the past couple of years.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> This recall letter is going out to 840,000 customers. The other 765,000 customers are the ones who have already received airbag defect recall letters over the past couple of years.


Out of the 765 that have gone out how many have been fixed?


----------



## JP 99300 (Sep 29, 2004)

This may have been covered somewhere in the 400 replies already, and if so I apologize....but I just called BMWFS at their email request to "let them know what my end of lease decision is." The poor phone rep was clueless and can't be enjoying his job right now but I asked, well do I really have a decision to make? He then proceeded to attempt to explain to me what we already know. What I found interesting was that when he offered up the ability to extend the lease for two months, I asked if my full payment made during those two months goes directly to reduce my residual buyout amount since I want to buy it now but BMW won't let me. His answer was that no, only about $4xx of your $5xx monthly payment gets credited against your residual. So, in essence, I explained to him that BMW is saying you can continue to pay us to drive this unsafe car, but we can't sell it to you....and if you are forced to extend your lease while we try to figure this out in hopes that you can eventually buy your car, we are also going to charge you interest (and depreciation) on the lease extension payments. He was speechless, then agreed. And I was actually being polite because I know it's not HIS fault. 

Did I summarize my understanding properly, and is this consistent with what others have been told re their lease extension payments? What a CF mess (and I don't mean carbon fiber).


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> Out of the 765 that have gone out how many have been fixed?


I don't know but that's a good question. Another good question is allocation priority on replacement modules from Takata, which I believe the NHTSA has to approve. In other words, it could be that all, or at least most, of this latest 840,000 BMWs could be at the end of the priority list.

Many, if not most, of the latest cars that were added to the list were added because they have modules that Takata wasn't able to positively identity. In other words, if Takata is not sure about whether the module they used for a certain brand's models has a potential defect, those were all added to the list.

The only test results I saw for the type of module used for the BMWs that were previously recalled and tested was a failure rate of 7 per 10,000 tested. That group included a few other brands besides BMW. That's a failure rate of 0.07%. The modules with the worst failure rate 2.16% were mostly Hondas and Toyotas. Then the second highest failure rate was 0.51%.

I know people aren't interested in hearing this over and over again, but the chances of being injured by a defective airbag in a BMW are extremely small. So small that BMW is not aware of any injuries or deaths resulting from a defective airbag in any BMW anywhere in the world.

I wonder why the NHTSA is insisting on this recall at all if they aren't even sure which cars may have defective modules? It's not like the failure rate is 50% or something, or even 10%.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> I know people aren't interested in hearing this over and over again, but the chances of being injured by a defective airbag in a BMW are extremely small. So small that BMW is not aware of any injuries or deaths resulting from a defective airbag in any BMW anywhere in the world.
> 
> I wonder why the NHTSA is insisting on this recall at all if they aren't even sure which cars may have defective modules? It's not like the failure rate is 50% or something, or even 10%.


That's because it's America and all risk in living life has been litigated out.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

JP 99300 said:


> This may have been covered somewhere in the 400 replies already, and if so I apologize....but I just called BMWFS at their email request to "let them know what my end of lease decision is." The poor phone rep was clueless and can't be enjoying his job right now but I asked, well do I really have a decision to make? He then proceeded to attempt to explain to me what we already know. What I found interesting was that when he offered up the ability to extend the lease for two months, I asked if my full payment made during those two months goes directly to reduce my residual buyout amount since I want to buy it now but BMW won't let me. His answer was that no, only about $4xx of your $5xx monthly payment gets credited against your residual. So, in essence, I explained to him that BMW is saying you can continue to pay us to drive this unsafe car, but we can't sell it to you....and if you are forced to extend your lease while we try to figure this out in hopes that you can eventually buy your car, we are also going to charge you interest (and depreciation) on the lease extension payments. He was speechless, then agreed. And I was actually being polite because I know it's not HIS fault.
> 
> Did I summarize my understanding properly, and is this consistent with what others have been told re their lease extension payments? What a CF mess (and I don't mean carbon fiber).


That is what I was told as well. I extended the lease for two months and figured I would fight the interest and depreciation as well as other issues after they had some space to figure stuff out.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Gigitty said:


> Actually, by internet standards this thread is extremely civil.
> 
> Having said that, you're quite right, the Pandora's box BMW chose to open will undoubtedly have plenty of unintended consequences.


Good point. There is no question that people are affected by this recall in varying degrees. This thread has been very informational and even fair in airing the concerns that are at play.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

need4speed said:


> To me the bottom line is , at least according to BMW, The cars are not safe enough for them to sell, but they are safe enough for the consumer to drive. that logic doesn't work. N4S


I think this point is what is going to cause them, in time, to change one side of this or the other. Holding both positions simultaneously doesn't make sense. Safety wise, I get it, but as N4S observes, they can't have it both ways. I think they'll either create a list of "risk-worthy" saleable cars, which they'll accept the risk for, or everything has to be pulled off the roads. They (legally) seem to have put themselves in the middle with the current position.

Again, I see/understand why they're doing what they are doing to protect people, but legally I think the impacts to owner value of cars is going to bite them if they destroy value by proclaiming cars that are super-low risk (newer, low humidity location cars) as unsaleable (theirs, or by association, owners' cars) they risk huge legal claims.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Ninong said:


> I don't know but that's a good question. Another good question is allocation priority on replacement modules from Takata, which I believe the NHTSA has to approve. In other words, it could be that all, or at least* most, of this latest 840,000 BMWs could be at the end of the priority list.
> *
> Many, if not most, of the latest cars that were added to the list were added because they have modules that Takata wasn't able to positively identity. In other words, if Takata is not sure about whether the module they used for a certain brand's models has a potential defect, those were all added to the list.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that the older models are fixed first and high humidity areas also have priority. There may be some overlap between a newer car in high humidity area and an older on in low humidity area, but for the most part the more recent recalls are at the back of the line.
While it may be true that the risk of injury or death is a small one, it is large enough for BMW to take extreme measures to protect BMW. N4S


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> I think this point is what is going to cause them, in time, to change one side of this or the other. Holding both positions simultaneously doesn't make sense. Safety wise, I get it, but as N4S observes, they can't have it both ways. I think they'll either create a list of "risk-worthy" saleable cars, which they'll accept the risk for, or everything has to be pulled off the roads. They (legally) seem to have put themselves in the middle with the current position.
> 
> Again, I see/understand why they're doing what they are doing to protect people, but legally I think the impacts to owner value of cars is going to bite them if they destroy value by proclaiming cars that are super-low risk (newer, low humidity location cars) as unsaleable (theirs, or by association, owners' cars) they risk huge legal claims.


There current position is they will not authorize their dealers to sell BMWs with an open recall for the airbag. The dealer is an independent business and could chose to ignore that directive (if they don't need to CPO the car or finance the sale though BMW FS). A private party or non-BMW dealer is free to ignore BMW. However, one of the 10 or so people killed bought his car from a used car dealer after it already had the open recall. The dealer is of course being sued.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> I think BMW is probably expediting a fix of their own so that these cars can be repaired quickly.


The sharpnels come from shattered metal container, maybe an reinforced container will help? This is basically a gun/cannon barrel that is fired only once, so with enough thickness the propellant(even degraded) should not break the container. My guess is Takata cut corners and costs on the containers and caused this fiasco, but the fix should not be too complicated.

Also the SAs said the fix should be a quick swap of airbags.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

adgrant said:


> There current position is they will not authorize their dealers to sell BMWs with an open recall for the airbag.


*
Federal Law* prevents us from selling *new* cars without the recall being done.



adgrant said:


> The dealer is an independent business and could chose to ignore that directive (if they don't need to CPO the car or finance the sale though BMW FS).


We are not independent. We are franchisees of BMW and therefore need to comply with BMW North America's mandates or risk the franchise.

Also, many dealers (mine included) are part of a corporate group. Ignoring Fed Law and/or BMW mandate creates exposure to the Corporation as well.



adgrant said:


> A private party or non-BMW dealer is free to ignore BMW.


Yes, but see your comment below!



adgrant said:


> However, one of the 10 or so people killed bought his car from a used car dealer after it already had the open recall. The dealer is of course being sued.


And you have boiled this down to the single issue driving the stop-sale decision (beyond safety) : who can be sued.

~M~


----------



## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

It's funny you say that Michael. Because when you call BMWNA they say their hands are tied because each dealer is an independent entity and they can't do anything to help you.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> *
> Federal Law* prevents us from selling *new* cars without the recall being done.
> 
> We are not independent. We are franchisees of BMW and therefore need to comply with BMW North America's mandates or risk the franchise.
> ...


It's true that Federal law prevents you from selling new BMWs that have not had any recall work done. That law does not apply to used cars though, you are free to sell them as far as the government is concerned.

I have no doubt the the purpose of the ban is to protect BMW from any civil legal liability. The risk of driving one of the recalled cars is probably very low particularly in the case of a more recent model that has spent its life outside the high humidity zones. If the risk was significant, the option to disable the air bags would be considered as an interim solution. BMW (and the government) seems to believe that disabling the airbags would increase the risk of death.

I am not aware of a similar recall from BMW Canada.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Gigitty said:


> Apparently BMW feels our weather is a life saver.
> 
> Unlike, say...Alaska.


Presumably your juries are less generous, your plaintiffs bar and regulators less aggressive.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

kjboyd said:


> It's funny you say that Michael. Because when you call BMWNA they say their hands are tied because each dealer is an independent entity and they can't do anything to help you.


You have to understand what they mean by that. Yes, it's true that each dealership in the U.S. is an independent franchisee, thanks to the various state laws regulating the sale of new cars through a network of independent dealers, but the product is manufactured by the car manufacturer not the dealer. The car manufacturer has to comply with U.S. law and the dealership has to comply with U.S. law. However, there are limits to what the manufacturer can force the dealer to do. For example, they can't even force him to participate in their loaner car program. They can offer incentives for him to do so and make it one of the points of compliance when they calculate his bonuses. The same goes for their BMW Genius program. They offer the dealer incentives to get with it on that and then the deduct from his bonus if he doesn't fully comply with what they would like on that but they can't force him to do it. It's the same with a lot of stuff but they have devised ways to make it costly for the dealer who doesn't comply with what they want. I'm not even sure BMW has figured out yet what they want to do on this Takata airbag stuff. I don't think their is any way in the world for them to offer loaners to anybody other than maybe those people in expiring leases who say they wanted to purchase the car. I can see them having to keep that car until it can be repaired and maybe giving that customer a loaner in the meantime, however long that is, but not everybody who comes in and says they're afraid to drive their car anymore. Where are they going to find a million loaners?

Under U.S. law, once the parts manufacturer notifies the NHTSA and the car manufacturer of a suspected defect, especially one that could injure people, it's up to the NHTSA whether to put that car on it's official recall notice list. Once that happens, U.S. law requires the manufacturer to take all steps necessary to resolve the problem. The NHTSA has the authority to force the manufacturer to recall cars. If the manufacturer issues a stop-sale order, it carries the full weight of the law. Used car dealers are not currently covered by that law but there is a bill pending in the Senate to fix that loophole.

Under U.S. law, it's the manufacturer who is responsible for supervising the proper repair of safety defect recalls. The manufacturer is required by law to develop a proper fix for the defect and to instruct the dealers' service departments on the proper technique for making the repairs. CarMax could take all of the cars they have in stock back to the respective new car dealers' service departments to have safety recall work done, if they wanted to, but instead what CarMax does is they don't have any recall work done on the cars they have in stock because that's not part of their comprehensive inspection. What they do is wait until delivery to tell the customer that he should register his car with the manufacturer to see if there are any open recalls on his car because they don't do that in advance. Two senators have sponsored a bill that would force CarMax and other used car dealers to have all safety recall work performed prior to selling the car. Right now, if you own a BMW that has been recalled, you're free to sell it to CarMax and they're free to sell it to somebody and then tell them to register the car with BMW to see if there are any recalls on it but they don't have to tell him that in advance because they're not covered by the law. You could even sell him your BMW that is currently financed by BMWFS because you're the own, not BMWFS, and all CarMax has to do is pay off the balance of the loan. If you're on a lease, then BMWFS owns the car and they're subject to the law. CarMax is not because they're a used car dealer and you're not because you're a private citizen.

I think some of you guys should take some time to Google EPA, CARB, NHTSA to see what their authority is under U.S. law. And maybe Google New Car Dealer Network in the U.S. while you're at it. Just for fun you could Google Elon Musk and Tesla push to allow direct sales of new cars. It's against the law in many states for Tesla to sell their cars there because Tesla does not use a dealer network.

The EPA and CARB are still in discussions, and have been for many months, on what VW will be required to do to fix their dieselgate problem in the U.S. The EPA and CARB refuse to accept VW's proposals for a fix. But that doesn't involve exploding air bags that shoot shrapnel into your face. And that involves only 584,000 diesels in the U.S. that are pumping out NOx at a rate up to 40 times the allowable limit because VW deliberately cheated. They have a total recall of over 8 million dieselgate cars worldwide. That's nothing compated to this Takata airbag fiasco. Already we're up to 34 million cars in the U.S. plus millions more in other countries. And the senate is pushing the NHTSA to recall 70-90 million more Takata airbags in the U.S. -- every known Takata airbag ever installed in car on the roads here. The NHTSA's response was that they are still conducting an investigation to determine if it is appropriate to recall another 70-90 million cars in the U.S. with Takata airbags but so far they have not found sufficient evidence to substantiate such an order. It's mostly political that some politician would just mouth off and say the NHTSA should make Takata recall every airbag they ever made. Where is that money coming from? Certainly not Takata. It's coming from each of the car brands involved, which means it's ultimately coming from the stockholders as well as the new customers eventually.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

adgrant said:


> It's true that Federal law prevents you from selling new BMWs that have not had any recall work done. That law does not apply to used cars though, you are free to sell them as far as the government is concerned.


If by "you" you mean a private citizen, then he's not subject to that law at all. Neither is a used car dealer.

However, the manufacturer is subject to that law and it covers not just new cars but also used cars in his possession if they are on the recall list. So yes, the law does apply to used cars if they are in the possession of the manufacturer. Once they are in the possession of the manufacturer's franchised dealer, they are considered to be subject o the law.

CarMax is not subject to that law because they are a used car dealer. There are several lawsuits pending against them as well as a bill in the Senate that was specifically motivated by CarMax's policy of selling used cars with open safety defect recalls.


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

I've read most of this and I'm just wondering this, my lease is up April 11th and I intended to buy it out. I go to my account on BMW and it gives me my payout figure and documents to send full payment and receive my title yet my car shows up under the recall. Do I just give it a shot and send the check and hope for the best?


----------



## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

I do understand Ninong. But each party uses that to their advantage and we get left out in the cold.


----------



## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

Lol


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

FLBimmer said:


> I've read most of this and I'm just wondering this, my lease is up April 11th and I intended to buy it out. I go to my account on BMW and it gives me my payout figure and documents to send full payment and receive my title yet my car shows up under the recall. Do I just give it a shot and send the check and hope for the best?


They won't be able to sell it to you until the safety defect has been repaired. You do probably have the strongest case of anybody for a loaner car in the meantime. That may depend on the local dealer. BMWNA can provide them with assistance but I don't think they can force them to participate no matter what the assistance may be. It's still up to the dealer to place cars in demo/loaner status.

I can't see this issue continuing like this indefinitely. Something has to give.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

FLBimmer said:


> I've read most of this and I'm just wondering this, my lease is up April 11th and I intended to buy it out. I go to my account on BMW and it gives me my payout figure and documents to send full payment and receive my title yet my car shows up under the recall. Do I just give it a shot and send the check and hope for the best?


You could try it and see what happens. It probably won't work.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

FLBimmer said:


> I've read most of this and I'm just wondering this, my lease is up April 11th and I intended to buy it out. I go to my account on BMW and it gives me my payout figure and documents to send full payment and receive my title yet my car shows up under the recall. Do I just give it a shot and send the check and hope for the best?


One final point. BMW is prioritizing cars in Florida, Hawaii and Puerto Rico, so that's in your favor. But they're also doing the oldest cars on the list first, so that works against you.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> Apparently BMW feels our weather is a life saver.
> 
> Unlike, say...Alaska.


That's something you should take up with Transport Canada, or whoever is in charge of performing the same functions for Canadians as the NHTSA in the U.S. performs for Americans.

If your car was imported by BMW Canada, they're the ones responsible for mailing out any appropriate recall notices. BMWNA is only responsible for issuing recalls on cars imported by BMWNA. In fact, they have no legal authority to recall a car that was imported by BMW Canada. That's up to BMW Canada and the appropriate Canadian authorities. So if your car was imported by BMW Canada, I suggest you check their website to see if your VIN shows up on their recall list because it surely won't show up on a BMWNA recall list.

By the way, just for the record, how many of the 10 deaths worldwide so far do you think have occurred in a car not named Honda? Only one and that was in a Ford. The other nine were all in Hondas.

How many injuries worldwide have been reported in a BMW due to a defective airbag inflator? Zero. How many injuries have occurred in a Mercedes? According to Mercedes-Benz, zero. Yet Mercedes-Benz has been forced to recall more than 847,000 cars.

Then why is BMW recalling 1.6 million cars? Because some of those cars have Takata airbag inflators similar to the ones that failed testing by Takata and others are on the list simply because Takata isn't sure which model inflator they have. The real reason is that the NHTSA added them to the list.

So far there have been a total of 10 deaths worldwide (9 of them in a Honda) and approximately 97 injuries and that's over the past decade. In the meantime, 37,000 lives are saved annually by airbags.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Gigitty said:


> So if I understand it the NHTSA is mandating a recall for certain BMWs and the rest are part of a voluntary recall by BMWNA no?
> 
> If this indeed is the case BMW Canada can also do a voluntary recall (on those same cars) irrelevant of what Transport Canada mandates.
> 
> I may be wrong here, I was under the impression part of the recall was "voluntary".


Why would they want to, why would you want them to.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Gigitty said:


> I think you're missing the point here.
> 
> The question is, why pick one jurisdiction over another if the cars are just as dangerous?
> 
> I'm assuming our weather makes our cars safer...


I think to difference is in the US, the regulatory agency in charge is pushing BMW to this, by issuing the recall. Even though the rule does not apply to used car sales, to be on the safe side BMW is prohibiting sales of the recalled cars. Evidently the Canadian equivalent is not.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Ninong said:


> They won't be able to sell it to you until the safety defect has been repaired. You do probably have the strongest case of anybody for a loaner car in the meantime. That may depend on the local dealer. BMWNA can provide them with assistance but I don't think they can force them to participate no matter what the assistance may be. It's still up to the dealer to place cars in demo/loaner status.
> 
> I can't see this issue continuing like this indefinitely. * Something has to give*.


100% agreement. the half in half out "solution" is unworkable long term


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

This whole thread is painfully parochial. Doesn't anyone wonder what's happening to all the Takata-infected BMW's outside the NHTSA jurisdiction?

Presumably those cars have NOT been recalled, and owners in Central and South America, Africa and Asia will spend the next 2-3 years waiting for their cars to blow up in their faces.

I know some of you are only concerned about "your" car, but I would hope BMW AG also cares about those customers.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Gigitty said:


> I think you're missing the point here.
> 
> The question is, why pick one jurisdiction over another if the cars are just as dangerous?
> 
> I'm assuming our weather makes our cars safer...


I think you are. The primary issue is legal liability, not safety. Every jurisdiction is free to decide for itself how dangerous the cars actually are. The weather in Canada probably reduces the risk relative to the high humidity areas of the US but there are many parts of the US with weather similar to Canada.

The recall did not magically make my X5 safer or more dangerous. It just made it harder to sell and worth less as a result. My sisters family in Canada has two BMWs that would also be affected by the recall, fortunately for them they live in Canada.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> So if I understand it the NHTSA is mandating a recall for certain BMWs and the rest are part of a voluntary recall by BMWNA no?
> 
> If this indeed is the case BMW Canada can also do a voluntary recall (on those same cars) irrelevant of what Transport Canada mandates.
> 
> I may be wrong here, I was under the impression part of the recall was "voluntary".


I think it's probably a bad choice of words for any of us to ever use the word "voluntary" when referring to the recall of a car that has been added to an NHTSA recall list. Maybe it should only be used if the manufacturer recalls the car to fix a safety defect that has not yet been discovered by the NHTSA and not yet added to any of their lists or if the manufacturer recalls a car for any defect that is not safety related. _If_ the word voluntary is appropriate -- and I'm not sure it is -- when referring to a car that has been added to the NHTSA's recall list, then it probably means that the manufacturer knows that if he does not "voluntarily" comply with the NHTSA "request," the NHTSA has the authority to haul him into court and ask the court to force him to comply. At least that's my take on it.

Two points that I would like to add before we get too much further along is that each country has its own regulatory body that enforces motor vehicle safety regulations for that country. The NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is a U.S. government agency, so obviously it has no authority to regulate motor vehicles imported into Canada by BMW Canada. I'm not positive if it has authority to regulate Canadian cars if they are later relocated to the U.S. and registered in the U.S. Perhaps it does? That's point number one.

Point number two is that, for whatever reasons, Great Britain, Canada and Australia has done a much better job of improving the safety performance of vehicles on their roads than the United States. In his 2004 book, former General Motors safety researcher Leonard Evans showed the following improvements in fatalities from 1979 to 2002: U.S. 51,093 to 42,845, -16.2%; Great Britain 6,352 to 3,431, -46.0%; Canada 5,863 to 2,936, -49.9%; Australia 3,508 to 1,715, -51.1%. We can rationalize all we want and try to come up with reasons why the U.S. might be different than those other three countries but we can't blame it on driving on the right side of the road because so do Canadians. I guess it means that we should all move to Canada if we want to avoid being killed on the highway?

There are a lot of U.S. laws and regulations pertaining to motor vehicles that I think are outdated but if they are codified into U.S. law, then it literally takes an act of Congress to change them. Unless we can secretly slip them into a very large bill overnight before it is voted on and no one bothers to read all the way down to page 1,536, then we might be out of luck because Congress doesn't approve anything if the White House supports it, even if it's something previously proposed by the opposition party that is in charge of both Houses of Congress now.

For example, why do we still not have amber rear turn signals instead of red? Amber turn signals make them stand out more from the red brake lights and they are standard in other civilized countries because they have been shown to reduce accidents. So why aren't they allowed in the U.S.? Because they are not yet approved, that's why.

So why don't we have laser headlights yet? Although I think we may be getting those soon but only if they are reduced in power compared to the German version and limited in the tricks they can perform. Why don't we have the remote controlled parking feature that is available on the current 7-series? That's even more disappointing when you hear the answer. It's because BMW assumed that U.S. law prohibited that because of the way it is written but now they have been assured by U.S. authorities that this particular feature the way it operates on a BMW is perfectly legal and could have been introduced when the car first came to the U.S. So what did BMWNA decide to do in response? Did they immediately allow U.S. customers to order that feature? No, they didn't. They said, oh, good, we'll think about it and probably add it sometime soon but we don't know when yet.

The U.S. laws that regulate car headlights were formulated back in the 1960's and that's why we don't get the same improvements the Europeans get as quickly as they do. A lot of our motor vehicle laws are outdated. And, to make matters more complicated, each of the various states has their own set of laws and regulations that they like to add to the mix. Self-driving cars are not prohibited in some states but they are definitely prohibited in others. Speed limits on the Interstate highway system are still different in each of the states and still regulated by state laws.

Most of that has little to do with your question other than to point out that just because the NHTSA says a car has a "defective" airbag doesn't mean it actually has a defective airbag and it doesn't mean BMW AG should follow the same recall procedure in other countries that they are required to follow in the U.S.

To try to understand the scope of the NHTSA's recall authority and how it works, I suggest you go directly to the source, the NHTSA itself: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/recallprocess.cfm


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

quackbury said:


> This whole thread is painfully parochial. Doesn't anyone wonder what's happening to all the Takata-infected BMW's outside the NHTSA jurisdiction?
> 
> Presumably those cars have NOT been recalled, and owners in Central and South America, Africa and Asia will spend the next 2-3 years waiting for their cars to blow up in their faces.
> 
> I know some of you are only concerned about "your" car, but I would hope BMW AG also cares about those customers.


Please cite a single example of any airbag in any BMW anywhere in the world that malfunctioned due to a defective inflator module shooting shrapnel into the bodies of the vehicle's occupants causing injuries? If you find one, please notify BMW Group in Munich because it would be news to them. The same holds true for Mercedes-Benz, that has been forced to recall more than 847,000 vehicles. Please notify Stuttgart if you can cite one example of a defective airbag inflator module in one of their cars anywhere in the world that caused injuries.

The latest five million plus cars that were added to the NHTSA's recall list last month, including 840,000 more BMWs and hundreds of thousands of Mercedes, were added because they are believed to have Takata airbag inflator modules similar to the one used in a Ford that caused a fatality in December 2015, which was the first fatality in the world that did not happen in a car named Honda.  Takata admitted to the NHTSA that it really isn't sure exactly which of those modules may be defective. That's because even though the module design may not be defective, the workmanship at the various individual manufacturing plants may be inconsistent. For example, one of the defective modules was shown to have chewing gum in it that caused it to malfunction. Should all of the airbags produced at that plant be recalled?

Many of the cars were added to the list because Takata couldn't guarantee the NHTSA that their modules weren't similar to others that malfunctioned. In other words, Takata doesn't even know for sure what's in what.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

quackbury said:


> This whole thread is painfully parochial. Doesn't anyone wonder what's happening to all the Takata-infected BMW's outside the NHTSA jurisdiction?
> 
> Presumably those cars have NOT been recalled, and owners in Central and South America, Africa and Asia will spend the next 2-3 years waiting for their cars to blow up in their faces.
> 
> I know some of you are only concerned about "your" car, but I would hope BMW AG also cares about those customers.


Well the title of the thread is "BMW NA halts trade in or sale of affected air bag recalled BMW cars", so I would call the thread on topic. BMW owners in other Countries are unaffected by this recall.

None of the cars affected by this recall have been repaired so climate issues aside, everyone is at equal risk of having their BMW blow up in their face.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Ninong said:


> Point number two is that, for whatever reasons, Great Britain, Canada and Australia has done a much better job of improving the safety performance of vehicles on their roads than the United States. In his 2004 book, former General Motors safety researcher Leonard Evans showed the following improvements in fatalities from 1979 to 2002: U.S. 51,093 to 42,845, -16.2%; Great Britain 6,352 to 3,431, -46.0%; Canada 5,863 to 2,936, -49.9%; Australia 3,508 to 1,715, -51.1%. We can rationalize all we want and try to come up with reasons why the U.S. might be different than those other three countries but we can't blame it on driving on the right side of the road because so do Canadians. I guess it means that we should all move to Canada if we want to avoid being killed on the highway?


The cars sold in Canada are almost identical to the cars sold in the US. In Europe, there are very few body on frame trucks sold which should reduce fatalities, OTOH there are a lot of very small cars on the road which may increase them.

The differences are more likely due to driver training, traffic law enforcement (particularly DUI) and miles driven.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

adgrant said:


> The differences are more likely due to driver training, traffic law enforcement (particularly DUI) and miles driven.


I totally agree with all of those points. I think Americans drive more than people in Britain because of our relatively cheap gas prices, which explains why diesels are much more popular in Britain than they are in the U.S. Maybe one of the differences between us and the Canadians is that the Canadians are allegedly much more polite. 

I wonder what the numbers for Ireland look like, since they allegedly drink more than anyone else in the world, except the Russians.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> Allegedly?
> 
> Puleez...just read my posts...


Yes, but see what's happening? You are suddenly reverting back to your Canadian upbringing.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

socal59 said:


> Presumably, Tekata used the same propellants and parts on all the vehicles brands. So why are some vehicles having a higher failure rate? Is it that they where in accidents more frequently? What makes me uncomfortable driving my X5 is, what if I do have an accident and the airbag shoots metal out at an above level of force. Unanswered questions make consumers uncomfortable.


Takata has always used "stable ammonium nitrate" as the propellant, allegedly because it is the least expensive alternative. I believe they are the only manufacturer using that propellant. The others chose more expensive alternatives because they were not convinced that "stable ammonium nitrate" was the best choice.

According to Takata, they have produced different module designs over the years. Sometimes they modified a design after learning of reported failures in accident reports. Don't forget that the first reported fatality due to a malfunctioning inflator modules that shot out shrapnel into the driver of a Honda was in 2002. Honda settled that claim in 2004. The first reported fatality in a car not named Honda was in December 2015 in a Ford.

Why are you uncomfortable driving your X5? Are you uncomfortable leaving your house? You could be struck and killed by lightning. Are you uncomfortable crossing the street? Do you realize that 4,500 people per year are killed in this country crossing the street?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

socal59 said:


> My point with "easy as pie" is that by a business saying they can't do X, is not a legal reason to not do it. If they can't produce loaners then they have to make good on the situation by another way. Terminate leases, buy back cars etc. The consumer is not at fault and should be compensated for this. Most products sold, if defective enough to be recalled are taken off the market, toys, food etc. Vehicles because they cost more have an exception to that rule? Why? Because they can't? Really? If a judge seems fit that they need to, I'm sure they will


You are assuming a lot. You are "sure" that if a "judge sees fit" to order that the manufacturers "produce 34,000,000 loaners" to customers with recalled Takata airbags they will be able to wave a magic wand and make it happen. Really?

What if the NHTSA adds another 70-90 million cars to the list? They are studying that possibility right now, thanks to certain politicians who have called for forcing Takata to replace every airbag they ever produced that is still on the road in the U.S.

No, just because something seems covered by current law doesn't mean a rational judge will order it if his order cannot be executed because it is impossible to fulfill.

In my opinion, BMW is providing the temporary solutions they have offered dealers because they anticipate that only a very small percentage of their customers will present a problem.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

socal59 said:


> Presumably, Tekata used the same propellants and parts on all the vehicles brands. So why are some vehicles having a higher failure rate? Is it that they where in accidents more frequently? What makes me uncomfortable driving my X5 is, what if I do have an accident and the airbag shoots metal out at an above level of force. Unanswered questions make consumers uncomfortable.


What if you have a collision with an 18 wheeler. Collisions with large trucks kill thousands of people a year in the US, exploding airbags have killed 10 people in over a decade.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Ninong said:


> Your lease agreement provides an option that you will be allowed to purchase the leased vehicle for the stated guaranteed residual value after you have finished making the scheduled payments. However, when you inform the lessor that you wish to exercise that option, you will be told that they cannot sell it to you until after they have completed certain safety-related recall work. When you ask how long that will take, you will be told that they have no idea because the necessary parts are not available. This probably applies to only a small percentage of all lessees because BMW's residuals are often overly generous and most lessees are not interested in buying their leased vehicles for the guaranteed residual value unless they're driving a 1M or any car with very low mileage that they really don't want to part with.
> 
> The lessee/renter of that car, especially if it is a 1M, may inform BMW Financial Services (the lessor/owner) that it is still his request that he be allowed to exercise the purchase option and wants assurance from them that they will hold the car for him until such time as the safety-recall work has been completed and they are allowed to sell it to him, but in the meantime he wants to know how he is expected to get around.


If BMW agrees to hold the car after the end of the lease until the recall is addressed and the lessee is no longer making payments on that car, I don't understand why they would be entitled to a free car. They can just buy, lease or rent another car while they wait.

I think someone who actually owns a BMW or has a current lease has a stronger case. I wonder how BMW can actually compel a lessee to continue making payments on a car the BMW has deemed unsafe to sell. How would a lessee terminate the lease early if they can't buy out the lease.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Ninong said:


> Your lease agreement provides an option that you will be allowed to purchase the leased vehicle for the stated guaranteed residual value after you have finished making the scheduled payments. However, when you inform the lessor that you wish to exercise that option, you will be told that they cannot sell it to you until after they have completed certain safety-related recall work. When you ask how long that will take, you will be told that they have no idea because the necessary parts are not available. This probably applies to only a small percentage of all lessees because BMW's residuals are often overly generous and most lessees are not interested in buying their leased vehicles for the guaranteed residual value unless they're driving a 1M or any car with very low mileage that they really don't want to part with.
> 
> The lessee/renter of that car, especially if it is a 1M, may inform BMW Financial Services (the lessor/owner) that it is still his request that he be allowed to exercise the purchase option and wants assurance from them that they will hold the car for him until such time as the safety-recall work has been completed and they are allowed to sell it to him, but in the meantime he wants to know how he is expected to get around...


I am on that boat, I have an E92 M3 that my lease originally will end at the end of March, I called couple weeks ago to arrange my lease end purchase and BMWFS said I cannot due to the airbag recall. The grant me a 2 months extension with the same lease payment that will go toward the deduction of my residual. They didn't say what will happen after the two months extension but did mention to call back early/mid May to see what options or resolutions that BMW will come up with to solve this issue.

If they are not asking for continue payment while they keep my car and wait for the new airbag, I will not ask for loaner. But if they insist me to continue my payments than I think it's totally fair for me to get a "BMW" brand loaner equivalent to my model (not enterprise rental...). Just my 2 cents :dunno:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

adgrant said:


> If BMW agrees to hold the car after the end of the lease until the recall is addressed and the lessee is no longer making payments on that car,* I don't understand why they would be entitled to a free car*. They can just buy, lease or rent another car while they wait.


Let me try to explain it from the point of view of one of the guys participating in this thread who is concerned because he is driving a 1M and is nearing the end of his lease but he absolutely wants to exercise his option to purchase the car for the stated guaranteed residual price after making all of the regularly scheduled payments. He is upset. Very upset. Because right now BMWFS is telling him that they can offer him a 2-month extension to his lease. He doesn't know what's going to happen at the end of that extension, and, do you want to know something? Maybe BMWFS doesn't know yet either. They're just doing what they have been told to do while waiting for BMW Legal in Munich to devise a workable way out of this mess.

But what happens to that guy if he gets another 2-month extension after the first 2-month extension? Obviously he will go along with it because he does not want them to keep the car. Then what? What happens if they ever tell him, we have no choice, we can't sell you the car, so you have to return it but we promise we'll sell it to you soon. When? We don't know yet but we'll notify you when it's fixed and you can come in and buy it then. Well, how about you guys lend me one of your nice loaners in the meantime since it's not my fault they you used a crappy supplier to make the airbags for your cars. I'm not about to run out and buy some other car, or worse still, get myself locked into a new lease, when I know I want to keep the 1M and my lease says I have that option.

Is he right? Ask him. See what he tells you. I already know what his answer will be and he has a valid point. What I don't know is when BMW will be able to actually sell him that car yet. And neither do they.



> I think someone who actually owns a BMW or has a current lease has a stronger case. I wonder how BMW can actually compel a lessee to continue making payments on a car the BMW has deemed unsafe to sell. How would a lessee terminate the lease early if they can't buy out the lease.


Sigh.

Why would someone really be worried about that possibility? Really, why? Why would, for example, anyone want to stop driving their BMW and start driving a loaner *Honda* instead?

Is BMW still selling those X5's everywhere else in the world? Well, are they? Think about that for a minute. It's the NHTSA that added 840,000 more BMWs to the previous 765,000 BMWs already on the list. Did you ask them why they did that? I believe a lot of the most recent 5 million new additions to the list were added because they are believed to maybe have inflator modules similar to the one in the Ford that killed something this past December.

There are possibly millions of cars on the list right now that are on there because the NHTSA decided to add them after Takata admitted they weren't sure exactly which module was in those cars.

Other than the fact that it has now been proven by experience that "stable ammonium nitrate" does degrade over a number of years (usually more than six) in hot humid climates and could result in a malfunction of the inflator module in as many as 2.16% of airbag inflations, there is also now testimony to NHTSA investigators from former Takata engineers that sometimes the automatic reject mechanism would be turned off on the production line because they were experiencing a reject rate of 60-80 defective modules per million when federal standards require a rate ten times less than that.

The tens of thousands of recalled airbags that were tested last May came from recalled cars in hot humid climates that were more than six years old because they were the ones with the highest priority for repairs. Of the BMW airbags tested that were from such cars, the failure rate was 0.07%. That's not 7 out of 100. That's not 7 out of one thousand. That's 7 out of ten thousand! So you have a 7/10,000 chance of your BMW airbag malfunctioning after more than six years if you live in a hot humid climate like Florida, Puerto Rico or Guam.

Please note. In other words, out of every 10,000 frontend collisions involving a BMW that is more than six years old from a hot humid climate perhaps as many of 7 of those will malfunction. They're only testing what has already been recalled and what has already been recalled are the ones they believe present the greatest danger to the safety of the car's occupants.

Feel free to ask that they put you in a loaner Honda or Toyota if that will make you feel safer. It's a free country and everyone is free to make those decisions from himself. Just make sure you understand the risks. In general, forgetting about the extremely remote possibility that you will be injured by the airbag in your BMW (even though there have been no reports of injuries in a BMW so far), what do you think about your overall chances of surviving any accident in a Honda compared to your BMW. Which would you rather be in if you were unfortunate enough to be in an accident?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> I will just wear my full face motorcycle helmet when driving the 1M.


Always wear your motorcycle helmet, fact shield in place, when riding your bike. One of them saved my face, as well as the rest of my head, 40 years ago. Didn't do much for the rest of me but at least my face wasn't destroyed. It was summer in the Deep South, so I wasn't wearing leather of any kind, except for boots. Spent 25 days in the hospital.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> Holy crap, glad you're still with us.


And I still have a six-hole titanium compression plate with six 1.25" screws holding my previously shattered left tibia together and it sets off all the flashing lights and alarm bells every time I go through TSA and then I have to wait for the personal inspection. Word of caution, never say anything other than yes or no to any of their questions because you never know when you're going to get a psycho TSA agent who will threaten to take you into the private room for a personal inspection in the presence of his supervisor just because you had the temerity to mention that your flight was departing in 15 minutes. :yikes:


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> And I still have a six-hole titanium compression plate with six 1.25" screws holding my previously shattered left tibia together and it sets off all the flashing lights and alarm bells every time I go through TSA and then I have to wait for the personal inspection. Word of caution, never say anything other than yes or no to any of their questions because you never know when you're going to get a psycho TSA agent who will threaten to take you into the private room for a personal inspection in the presence of his supervisor just because you had the temerity to mention that your flight was departing in 15 minutes. :yikes:


Two titanium hip replacements ... TSA is my friend ...


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

adgrant said:


> What if you have a collision with an 18 wheeler. Collisions with large trucks kill thousands of people a year in the US, exploding airbags have killed 10 people in over a decade.


The above and similar arguments are about as illogical as can be. According to this line of thinking, why have any recalls or safety standards? You can potentially die any number of ways, but that should not elliminate safety standards, procedures, recalls etc. I mean, why not then not wear seat belts? You can die by any number of situations? 

Why is a vehicle on a recall list? Is it that there is the possibility that it may have a safety issue? Because if there was no issue it would not be on the recall list.


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

so I get an enterprise car, not a bmw, and I have to leave my car at the dealer. But I still have to make payments on my car, while is still depreciating about 700$ a month. But now instead of a BMW I will be driving a low level fleet car.

I want out, and I want out right now.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

socal59 said:


> Why is a vehicle on a recall list? Is it that there is the possibility that it may have a safety issue? Because if there was no issue it would not be on the recall list.


There is an issue. The issue is that maybe that car has one of the inflator modules that Takata thinks might be in it and maybe that's one of the ones that has a 7 in 10,000 chance of causing injuries to the occupants of the car provided the car is more than six years old and has been kept in a hot humid climate all that time, such as Florida, Puerto Rico and Guam, because that's where the ones that failed came from according to Takata based on the testing they performed last May on airbags that were removed due to the recall from such cars in those places.

However, if you're driving a Honda, it may not help to know that the first nine fatalities were in Hondas. Then in December 2015, someone was killed in a Ford due to a Takata airbag inflator malfunction. So now Honda is only 9 for 10. The most recent update on NHTSA shows a total of 139 cases of reported injuries from Takata airbag failures and those are not just in Hondas but they're mostly in Hondas and Toyotas plus a few other brands but not a single injury in a BMW or a Mercedes. Those are the figures for the past 10 years, not the past year.

Since none of the numbers on BMW are based on actual experience, there is no actual experience of failure, we have to rely on the numbers provided by Takata based on their testing of 27,000 airbags removed from recalled cars last May. Those tests shows that Hondas, as expected from already known experience with falalities and injuries, had the highest failure rate at 2.16%. So your changes of injury in a Honda with one of those inflator modules is 1 in 46 deployed airbags causing shrapnel to strike you in the face and elsewhere.

So that's the issue. Takata airbags used stable ammonium nitrate as a propellant because it's cheaper than the alternatives. Apparently it can degrade over time in hot humid climates. None of the other airbag manufacturers use stable ammonium nitrate because they didn't think it was the best choice. In addition to that fundamental problem, Takata wasn't the most ethical company on the face of the planet and, according to both Honda and Toyota, Takata "misrepresented and manipulated test results" in explanations for why their customers were being injured or killed by Takata airbags over the years. The first fatality was in 2002 and Honda settled that claim secretly in 2004.

BMW didn't determine which cars to put on the list, the NHTSA did. Millions of cars on the list are there because Takata isn't sure which module design they might contain, so the NHTSA added them to the list just to be on the safe side. The NHTSA is investigating whether to add an additional 70-90 million more cars to the list because that would represent all cars in the U.S. still on the road with a Takata airbag and that is what has been demanded by some politicians. The NHTSA said it is not yet ready to release the results of that investigation.

In the meantime, let's all investigate how to come up with as many as 120,000,000 loaner cars to keep everybody happy since so many people think that is what a judge will order because that's what they think they should demand. How does that work I wonder? I guess it would work the same way BMW will come up with 1,605,000 loaners to satisfy every BMW on the recall list right now. Oh, and let's not forget all those other older BMWs on the road that might have a Takata airbag, because those owners would feel discriminated against if they didn't get a free loaner, right?

I'm sorry but I fail to understand why some people are still asking the questions they are asking. Let's just refresh everybody one more time. BMW didn't add any cars to the list, the NHTSA did. Many of the cars on the list might have one of the airbag inflator modules that might have a slight chance of malfunction under certain circumstances but many others are on the list simply because Takata told the NHTSA it wasn't sure which module design was in those cars.

If you're driving a BMW, you have a much greater chance of being killed by a drunk 16-year-old in Texas who will later get off with probation because he suffers from affluenza.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

X5done said:


> so I get an enterprise car, not a bmw, and I have to leave my car at the dealer. But I still have to make payments on my car, while is still depreciating about 700$ a month. But now instead of a BMW I will be driving a low level fleet car.
> 
> I want out, and I want out right now.


I appreciate the post. But the forum would benefit from extra information.

What year is your x5?

Did you get the rental through the the dealer that you bought the x5 or the closest to home? Maybe you are a repeat buyer?

Did they mention a time frame for a fix (summer vs two years) ?

As Ninong pointed out did you make sure that the rental is not part of the same airbag recall ?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Arciga18 said:


> As Ninong pointed out did you make sure that the rental is not part of the same airbag recall ?


Just for emphasis, because I know most people won't even believe this if they read it on a forum like this one, but the rental car company that rented that lady the Honda Civic that killed her was not only not required by law to bring the car in for the free repairs to the Takata airbag that was on recall for six years when they rented it to her, they were not even required by law to tell her that they were renting a car that had an outstanding safety-defect recall that had never been fixed.

You can read all about it here. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/business/airbag-death-in-honda-rental-car-reveals-a-gap.html?_r=0

It's very informative and explains why many legislators in Congress think the laws, and regulations that are based on those laws, are as porous as Swiss cheese. That's why CarMax has been able to sell used cars to customers without telling them in advance that their car may have a safety-related defect that should be fixed. The manufacturer's licensed dealer can't do that but CarMax can because they're a used car dealer. What CarMax does is tell customers on delivery that they should register their car with the manufacturer in order to be informed of any recalls. CarMax's highly touted comprehensive inspection does not extend to actually checking to see if there are any outstanding recalls on that car because doing so might slow them down. What if there is a recall open on the car but the dealer doesn't have the parts to fix it and won't have them for months? Do you think CarMax is worried about the customer's safety or about their own bottom line?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

X5done said:


> so I get an enterprise car, not a bmw, and I have to leave my car at the dealer. But I still have to make payments on my car, while is still depreciating about 700$ a month. But now instead of a BMW I will be driving a low level fleet car.
> 
> I want out, and I want out right now.


*X5done*, can you provide a few more details about your situation? 

What year is your X5 and why were you required to leave it at the dealer?

Was it a 2012 or newer model? If you were required to leave it at the dealer, did you read this post from Automotive News describing a bulletin that the dealers received last month: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9587663&postcount=449

If your car was a 2012 or newer X5 and you were required to leave it at the dealer, did you consider asking the dealer for a loaner instead of an Enterprise rental car?

It would help a lot to know the year of your X5 and exactly why it's at the dealer. Thanks!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gigitty said:


> Spoke to my tech on an unrelated matter and he mentioned the service manager mentioned that BMW has no plans to expand the recall in Canada beyond what Transport Canada has indicated.
> 
> Seems odd. :dunno:


Why does it seem odd? BMW didn't say these cars need to have their airbags replaced, the NHTSA did by placing them on their recall list. The same holds true for Transport Canada. I assume Canada has laws similar to those in the U.S., right?

I believe Japan has laws somewhat similar to those in the U.S. and I think most of the Takata airbag recalls outside the U.S. are in Japan.

BMW issued recall letters on the cars that the NHTSA has on its official recall list because that is the law in this country. The NHTSA has no authority outside the U.S. and its territories.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Im a fan of the random data points and helping other festers, if possible. 

I own/ have 2 vehicles on the recall list

2011 328i (private party purchase from a guy in NJ, financed via a credit union)
2013 X5 (purchased in September 2015, BMWFS account)

I received the official Recall letter today for the E90. I thought I would get both letters at the same time. The letter is rather brief basically saying that parts are not available and to wait for a future letter. If you have questions contact your dealer or customer Relations. .....It's the same letter you can find online via BMWusa.com--> safety recalls ---> punching in your VIN.

What I found interesting is that the paper version does not include the 4-page Q&A that is available online (same BMW website). One could argue that it is because they are trying to save on paper and postage costs. However, how are people supposed to know that they have an option for alternate transportation , subject to availability,.....

Please note that I'm not saying that getting alternate transportation is the best solution. There have been some good points brought up over loaner vs rental vs driving your car vs probability of having a bad airbag vs safety etc. etc. etc.

I will say that I contacted the service manager where i Bought the x5 (big store, high volume) on 3/14 and he said he needed a few days to contact bmw and work out the details. I called yesterday (3/22) and left a voicemail. NO return call. I left a message today again.

It looks like I'm going to have to show up in person with the BMW letter + Q&A and see what they offer. It's fine if they are not participating in BMW's loaner/incentive program.... I just need that in writing so I have grounds to cause a stink in the future if necessary.


Not trying to sound like an entitled SOB. I just demand common courtesy :angel:.


----------



## cptcrunch (Jan 9, 2010)

Received the recall letter today (attached). Nothing unexpected, just wait and see.


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

Ninong said:


> *X5done*, can you provide a few more details about your situation?
> 
> What year is your X5 and why were you required to leave it at the dealer?
> 
> ...


It is '11 model. I take my car there for all my services. At this point I am not going to push for a loaner. I am upset at the fact that I am not able to sell the car, unless I decide to deal with the financial hit. No timeframe was given, but I am assuming this will take months. I left the car there with the idea that I will not drive that car again. Knowing how BMWs are, I know that having the car parked for months will create additional issues.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

Ninong said:


> There is an issue. The issue is that maybe that car has one of the inflator modules that Takata thinks might be in it and maybe that's one of the ones that has a 7 in 10,000 chance of causing injuries to the occupants of the car provided the car is more than six years old and has been kept in a hot humid climate all that time, such as Florida, Puerto Rico and Guam, because that's where the ones that failed came from according to Takata based on the testing they performed last May on airbags that were removed due to the recall from such cars in those places.
> 
> However, if you're driving a Honda, it may not help to know that the first nine fatalities were in Hondas. Then in December 2015, someone was killed in a Ford due to a Takata airbag inflator malfunction. So now Honda is only 9 for 10. The most recent update on NHTSA shows a total of 139 cases of reported injuries from Takata airbag failures and those are not just in Hondas but they're mostly in Hondas and Toyotas plus a few other brands but not a single injury in a BMW or a Mercedes. Those are the figures for the past 10 years, not the past year.
> 
> ...


Repeating your same corporate PR doesn't change the facts. You can continue to spew that you can die by getting hit by a train over and over, but still won't sound anymore logical to the facts of this situation. There is an element of risk, or the cars would not be on recall. We don't know how many BMW's had actual accidents that had airbags deployed. Maybe none? Maybe a few? Maybe minor accidents that airbags did not deploy? Maybe BMW drivers are better drivers than Honda drivers? Without ALL the data, which no one here has access to, we don't know the outcomes.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

"The service manager said via phone that they could only offer me a rental and not a loaner (again I have a 2013 that I bought in September) They wanted me to deal with a local Enterprise or Hertz on my own which was a complete fail........"

This doesn't make sense as the assumption is the rental will be paid by BMW NA through dealer reimbursement, so they need to set it up.

Hmmm.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

This Automotive News article from March 25, 2016 puts the total number of Takata airbags recalled worldwide at 60 million! http://www.autonews.com/article/201...iv-comes-out-on-top-after-takatas-airbag-mess


----------



## asus389 (May 20, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> First and most important, the stop sale continues. NO changes there.
> 
> No change that there is BMW NA financial support to dealers to carry cars that can't be sold. This includes trade in vehicles, to help maintain value of the trades.
> 
> ...


Do they have a plan to address the stop sale? I have an e90 328i that I was considering trading for an e90 335xi but they have all but disappeared from the market. :-(


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> First and most important, the stop sale continues. NO changes there.
> 
> *No change that there is BMW NA financial support to dealers to carry cars that can't be sold. This includes trade in vehicles, to help maintain value of the trades*.
> 
> ...


This is the issue that interests me. Anything that prevents/retards the trade in process is very bad for BMW and their clients. Reduced used car sales has to be killing the dealership profits, and much lower prices and/or no resale by clients to the dealership will result in a lot fewer sales. Sounds like a medium to long term "death spiral". Consumer's who can't buy and sellers who can't sell. I don't see how this is sustainable even in the medium term. N4S


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> Consumer's who can't buy and sellers who can't sell.


Your points are valid, except that consumers can still buy and sellers can still sell as long as they're not new car dealers. The stop-sale has no effect on anyone except new car dealers.

CarMax can continue to do business the way it always has -- without checking for any open recalls and without telling the customer that they are selling him a car with an outstanding safety recall. That's perfectly legal because they're not a new car dealer and the law does not apply to them. Some U.S. senators are trying to put a stop to that by amending the law.

Rental car companies can continue to rent cars that have an outstanding safety recall without taking the car in to the new car dealer to have the free repair work done. The law does not apply to them.

As always, remember the _caveat_ at the bottom of any manufacturer's statement: See your _participating_ BMW Center for details. That's because "participation" may vary. Some customers may have a slightly different experience when they discuss this situation with their local BMW Center than others in a different area. The "assistance" from BMW is "offered" to the dealer if he chooses to do whatever it is that provides him with that assistance.


----------



## x986 (Oct 27, 2006)

I've read through 5 pages of this thread, and my eyes glazed over. Of course I know that the '16 F30s are not on the list because (at least) the igniters have been changed, but I'm curious if the bags are still Takata, and/or the propellant is the one that ages badly. (Ammonium nitrate?)
Anyone know? Thanks.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

asus389 said:


> Do they have a plan to address the stop sale? ...


You've hit the sore spot with the dealers. To-date, still no indication that they intend to lift the stop-sale of affected used BMWs.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Arciga18 said:


> *I have a 2013 that I bought in September*. 2013 X5, mileage is 51,3xx. It is a CPO until September 2018.
> 
> -Sport Activity, (20" wheels (Wheels are actually brand new 469m wheels. This is the new m-sport style on new X5. I bought them before knowing about the recall.)
> -soft close doors,
> ...


If, after studying the available data, you still think your best option is to get rid of this car, then that's your choice. Just remember that the only test data available showed *a failure rate of 1 in every 1,429 deployed Takata inflators of the type used in older model BMW's (2008 and older) removed from cars in hot humid climates*. Those were the cars that were recalled first because the problem is that the stable ammonium nitrate propellant can degrade over time when exposed to hot humid climates. That's a failure rate of 0.07%. That's the basis for the recall because BMW has not yet had a single incident of reported injuries in any BMW over the past 10 years caused by a defective Takata airbag inflator. Honda and Toyota are the two manufacturers who account for almost all of the reported injuries.

The reason manufacturers like VW, Mercedes and BMW are on the list is because some of the inflators in some of their cars are similar to inflators that tested at a failure rate of 0.07% (1 out of every 1,429 deployed airbags in older cars from hot humid climates). All of the 27,000 recalled airbags Takata tested in May 2015 were taken from cars in such climates.

The reason the initial recall was ordered ONLY for cars in hot humid climates that were older than 2008 models is because those are the cars (mostly Honda and Toyota) with reported injuries and fatalities. The first nine deaths were all in Hondas. Then in December 2015, someone died in a 2002 Ford Ranger pickup -- a 13-year-old vehicle. The reason the NHTSA didn't act on this problem sooner is because Takata, Honda and Toyota all chose to ignore U.S. law and not report the injuries (and in Honda's case, deaths) to the NHTSA. Honda settled a death claim in 2004 from an accident in 2002. Toyota began settling claims back in 2007. Honda even asked Takata secretly to redesign the inflator modules to "make them safer." All of that activity was supposed to be reported to the NHTSA but Takata, Honda and Toyota decided that doing so might be bad for business. You might remember that it was just a couple of years back that the U.S. government hit Toyota with what was the biggest fine in history for all their deliberate lies and safety violations. Somehow that hit to their reputation didn't last longer than a year or so.

Some of the replacement modules some manufacturers are employing right now involve using those same Takata inflators because they are fresher than the ones in the older cars they are "fixing" this way. Those cars will be called back in again once newly designed inflators are tested and manufactured. BMW may be forced to do that in some of their older cars if they are unable to come up with an alternative in time to meet the NHTSA new deadline for them.

I believe there are about 100,000 older BMWs that were supposed to be fixed by March 31, 2016 that have a new deadline of August 31, 2016 but all of those are in hot humid climates. I guess if BMW can't come up with an alternative by August 31, 2016, they will be forced to use those same Takata modules and then replace them again once they can get better modules not made by Takata. BMW now has a total of about 1.8 million Takata airbags that need to be replaced. Those with the "batwing" PSDI-4 driver's-side airbag inflators now have a deadline of May 31, 2020 for replacement. I think that includes 420,000 2002-06 3-series, 2002-03 5-series and 2003-04 X5.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

I'm on the opposite end after a couple weeks of research/ phone calls. It will make more sense to just keep the car because I don't expect BMW to eat the diminished value.

I'm not in a position to absorb a bunch of negative equity.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> First and most important, the stop sale continues. NO changes there.
> 
> No change that there is BMW NA financial support to dealers to carry cars that can't be sold. This includes trade in vehicles, to help maintain value of the trades.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this update, Michael. Just a question if you don't mind clarifying: if BMW FS is allowing lease extension with payment reduction, does it say whether the payment is reduced by the entire amount of additional lease payment or just the additional depreciation amount paid? And does it disclose how long BMW FS would extend the lease, i.e., can they extend it indefinitely until the defective part is replaced? Thanks!


----------



## Boomer1976 (Dec 28, 2015)

I contacted my local dealer and they are playing dumb on what to do. Contact Service. Contact BMWUSA. Blah Blah Blah


----------



## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> First and most important, the stop sale continues. NO changes there.
> 
> No change that there is BMW NA financial support to dealers to carry cars that can't be sold. This includes trade in vehicles, to help maintain value of the trades.
> 
> ...


Thanks!


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Just got off the phone with BMWFS. They were useless! I wanted to know when I could buy the car, they couldn't tell me. Wanted to know why in extending the lease I had to keep paying interest, dep plus the extra miles I originally bought on a pro-rated basis. I bought 18k a year in miles but my work changed so I only used 30k in miles compared to 54k I was allowed. They still want me to keep making payment on the original amount of miles plus interest and dep. I told them that was not fair in my judgment. They supervisor told me that was my only option or I could turn my car in even after i explained all the extra money I had into the car. Very disappointing! Did not want to go down this road but I guess I will get an attorney to deal with this as I am not giving the car back and I am not paying on the same lease term as that is not right!


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

While I will try to keep you all informed as best as I can, but it seems either there is a disconnect, delayed implementation, or other. 

~M~


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

I called and talked to BMWFS as well today. Useless is being too kind. All I got out of them is they can extended my lease two months with the original being over April 11th. In other words, they can't or won't do s#*t for people like us, at least at this point in time. I'll have to call them back tomorrow to find out how they calculated my new residual when it's only $844.56 less when two payments total $1161.32. That's some kind of creative math and MF they came up with.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

FLBimmer said:


> I called and talked to BMWFS as well today. Useless is being too kind. All I got out of them is they can extended my lease two months with the original being over April 11th. In other words, they can't or won't do s#*t for people like us, at least at this point in time. I'll have to call them back tomorrow to find out how they calculated my new residual when it's only $844.56 less when two payments total $1161.32. That's some kind of creative math and MF they came up with.


They probably only reduced your residual by the amount of depreciation you are paying in the lease payment since monthly lease payment = monthly depreciation + interest + sales tax.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

x986 said:


> I've read through 5 pages of this thread, and my eyes glazed over. Of course I know that the '16 F30s are not on the list because (at least) the igniters have been changed, but I'm curious if the bags are still Takata, and/or the propellant is the one that ages badly. (Ammonium nitrate?)
> Anyone know? Thanks.


My gut feel is that once the current 60m backlog is cleared(in 4 years?), they will then work on the rest of the new(er) Takata airbags including the F-chassis cars like F30.


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

ccyippy said:


> They probably only reduced your residual by the amount of depreciation you are paying in the lease payment since monthly lease payment = monthly depreciation + interest + sales tax.


Which is BS itself when I am prepared to write a check for the full amount and you're still going to charge me interest beyond the terms of the contract. Kind of like the customer service rep telling me that the gov't recall action supersedes any lease contract BMW may have with me. Michael @ BMW Seattle, anybody willing to deal on the new M2? That's the only one that interests me right now. I'm about ready to yank all my upgrades off, get replacement pieces from the junkyard, drop this thing off and be done with it.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

FLBimmer said:


> Which is BS itself when I am prepared to write a check for the full amount and you're still going to charge me interest beyond the terms of the contract. Kind of like the customer service rep telling me that the gov't recall action supersedes any lease contract BMW may have with me. Michael @ BMW Seattle, anybody willing to deal on the new M2? That's the only one that interests me right now. I'm about ready to yank all my upgrades off, get replacement pieces from the junkyard, drop this thing off and be done with it.


The unfortunate part is none of the lease math addresses going beyond lease end, as the interest is based on cap cost and RV, and relies on the RV being paid by someone at lease end. Since the stop sale breaks this process, the RV cannot be paid by anyone, and hence the interest on that borrowed amount(still owed to the banks) still needs to be paid by someone.

And yes, by returning the car, the lessee terminates the contract, and BMWFS then takes on that asset on its balance sheet(by paying off the loaned amount of RV to the banks).


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Ninong said:


> If, after studying the available data, you still think your best option is to get rid of this car, then that's your choice. Just remember that the only test data available showed *a failure rate of 1 in every 1,429 deployed Takata inflators of the type used in older model BMW's (2008 and older) removed from cars in hot humid climates*. Those were the cars that were recalled first because the problem is that the stable ammonium nitrate propellant can degrade over time when exposed to hot humid climates. That's a failure rate of 0.07%. That's the basis for the recall because BMW has not yet had a single incident of reported injuries in any BMW over the past 10 years caused by a defective Takata airbag inflator. Honda and Toyota are the two manufacturers who account for almost all of the reported injuries.


Ninong, I mean no offense, but could you please stop trying to convince all of this isn't an issue? We all FULLY understand that the likelihood of an actually accident/injury is very low, you've capably made that point on numerous occasions.

Unfortunately, the process that BMW has, to date, implemented is changing the financial equation for thousands of people. Those people are not helped by being told that they shouldn't worry about it, because the likelihood of injury is low. We get it, but if you're trying to buy a car you leased, it just got very financially messy. If you're trying to trade an affected car you own, the value has at least temporarily taken a negative financial hit because of peoples perceptions (whether those perceptions are rational or not is another thing, an issue you've clearly articulated). If someone had been planning this year to buy a CPO affected car, they cannot do that presently, they'll need to either buy it private sale without the benefit of a CPO warrant or take their chances with a less-warranted car.

I firmly believe the first few times you made the case that safety-wise the issue isn't as severe as the newspaper headline scream they are were very valuable, I expect some can drive their car feeling more secure that they have a 0.07% chance of a serious incident, rather than some of the higher values experienced with other, less lucky car owners, but at this point people merely want to discuss things, and sometimes just gripe, because it helps them deal with it. Being told the shouldn't feel a way because that stats say they shouldn't doesn't help them. This is a discussion group. At times that means people merely want to vent, get emotions off their chest with peers who might share the same view, and others who might not (and they might both learn from that), but the repeated wall of text telling people that they shouldn't feel the way they do doesn't add to the discussion when it repeats facts you've already stridently made.


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

namelessman said:


> The unfortunate part is none of the lease math addresses going beyond lease end, as the interest is based on cap cost and RV, and relies on the RV being paid by someone at lease end. Since the stop sale breaks this process, the RV cannot be paid by anyone, and hence the interest on that borrowed amount(still owed to the banks) still needs to be paid by someone.
> 
> And yes, by returning the car, the lessee terminates the contract, and BMWFS then takes on that asset on its balance sheet(by paying off the loaned amount of RV to the banks).


Correct, and BMW should be the ones paying it, not me. I've fulfilled my obligations under the terms of the lease. If they want to try and change the terms, whether their fault or not, they should bear the financial burden. They're making crap up as they go along right now and of course whatever they do will be in their best interests not the customers.


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

The Federal Government law legally requires BMW not to sell you the car. The lease buy out was an option at the end of the contract, not a given. For BMW to charge you interest on money borrowed that you're benefiting from seems completely reasonable. The money you now still have as a result of not buying out the lease is still earning interest (or at least could be) so it is a reasonable expectation. BMW could just tell you to turn in the car, seems to me they're doing you the favor.

Tim


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

angler said:


> Just got off the phone with BMWFS. They were useless! I wanted to know when I could buy the car, they couldn't tell me. Wanted to know why in extending the lease I had to keep paying interest, dep plus the extra miles I originally bought on a pro-rated basis. I bought 18k a year in miles but my work changed so I only used 30k in miles compared to 54k I was allowed. They still want me to keep making payment on the original amount of miles plus interest and dep. I told them that was not fair in my judgment. They supervisor told me that was my only option or I could turn my car in even after i explained all the extra money I had into the car. Very disappointing! Did not want to go down this road but I guess I will get an attorney to deal with this as I am not giving the car back and I am not paying on the same lease term as that is not right!


Are they saying they want you to keep paying the same amount as your contracted lease payment?

I am not sure what you want an attorney to do for you but if you decide to litigate, you will probably pay the lawyer more money than you paid BMW when you bought those extra miles. Even fast tracked litigation can easily last six months and you won't get to keep the car in the meantime. You don't own the car, BMW FS does, and if you don't make payments they will want their car back.


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

angler said:


> Just got off the phone with BMWFS. They were useless! I wanted to know when I could buy the car, they couldn't tell me. Wanted to know why in extending the lease I had to keep paying interest, dep plus the extra miles I originally bought on a pro-rated basis. I bought 18k a year in miles but my work changed so I only used 30k in miles compared to 54k I was allowed. They still want me to keep making payment on the original amount of miles plus interest and dep. I told them that was not fair in my judgment. They supervisor told me that was my only option or I could turn my car in even after i explained all the extra money I had into the car. Very disappointing! Did not want to go down this road but I guess I will get an attorney to deal with this as I am not giving the car back and I am not paying on the same lease term as that is not right!


You should check your lease contract, I believe it requires arbitration. I don't think you're going to get a lot of sympathy from an arbitrator to be honest. BMW's hands are tied. They could require you to turn in the car and give you nothing. I don't see why people are glazing over this fact. There is no obligation for them to sell you the car, it is very clearly listed as an option in the lease contract. That option is not available as the result of a federal safety law. Who's going to fault BMW for that one?

Do I think BMW could be handling the PR on this better, yes. Do I think they're handing the situation incorrectly, no.

Tim


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

adgrant said:


> Are they saying they want you to keep paying the same amount as your contracted lease payment?
> 
> I am not sure what you want an attorney to do for you but if you decide to litigate, you will probably pay the lawyer more money than you paid BMW when you bought those extra miles. Even fast tracked litigation can easily last six months and you won't get to keep the car in the meantime. You don't own the car, BMW FS does, and if you don't make payments they will want their car back.


We will see about that! They have an obligation to let me buy the car no where in the lease does it state that they can get out of that obligation.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

FLBimmer said:


> Correct, and BMW should be the ones paying it, not me. I've fulfilled my obligations under the terms of the lease. If they want to try and change the terms, whether their fault or not, they should bear the financial burden. They're making crap up as they go along right now and of course whatever they do will be in their best interests not the customers.


It does seem fair that the lessees pay the extra interest as the contract does not terminate(as lease return or buyout), but is extended(for this recall issue). The one renting/using the asset(the lessee/renter in this case) should pay rent/interest to the owner, which is BMWFS in this case.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

tim330i said:


> You should check your lease contract, I believe it requires arbitration. I don't think you're going to get a lot of sympathy from an arbitrator to be honest. BMW's hands are tied. They could require you to turn in the car and give you nothing. I don't see why people are glazing over this fact. There is no obligation for them to sell you the car, it is very clearly listed as an option in the lease contract. That option is not available as the result of a federal safety law. Who's going to fault BMW for that one?
> 
> Do I think BMW could be handling the PR on this better, yes. Do I think they're handing the situation incorrectly, no.
> 
> Tim


I am more then willing to go to arbitration as I like those odd's. Arbitration is about reasonableness and they are not being reasonable on this. BTW an option is a requirement in a contract and it's my option not theirs.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

FLBimmer said:


> Correct, and BMW should be the ones paying it, not me. I've fulfilled my obligations under the terms of the lease. If they want to try and change the terms, whether their fault or not, they should bear the financial burden. They're making crap up as they go along right now and of course whatever they do will be in their best interests not the customers.


The only term they appear to have changed is removing the option to buy the car for the residual value. Absent the option to purchase the car, you will have fulfilled the terms of the lease when you return the car. If you have installed any modifications (your previous post suggested you have), I believe you will have to remove them.


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

angler said:


> I am more then willing to go to arbitration as I like those odd's. Arbitration is about reasonableness and they are not being reasonable on this. BTW an option is a requirement in a contract and it's my option not theirs.


But that option is no longer available as a result of a federal law. So BMW has no option to sell you the car per the law. There is case law when laws impact private contracts, they do not side with you. I also don't feel that a reasonable person sides with you, but I hope you take it to arbitration as I want to know the outcome. Watching a train wreck aside I think it is not a good use of money and you're going to end up behind in the end. You also have to pay for BMW's legal fees if you lose per the lease agreement.

Tim


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

angler said:


> We will see about that! They have an obligation to let me buy the car no where in the lease does it state that they can get out of that obligation.


I am not sure if that obligation supersedes their obligation not to sell you a car with a safety defect. If it unlawful to sell you the car, I don't see how you could prevail in court. However, I am fairly sure that failing to return a car you do not own to the lawful owner once the lease has expired could be considered a criminal matter as well as a civil one. You should definitely talk to a lawyer before taking that course of action.


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

tim330i said:


> The Federal Government law legally requires BMW not to sell you the car. The lease buy out was an option at the end of the contract, not a given. For BMW to charge you interest on money borrowed that you're benefiting from seems completely reasonable. The money you now still have as a result of not buying out the lease is still earning interest (or at least could be) so it is a reasonable expectation. BMW could just tell you to turn in the car, seems to me they're doing you the favor.
> 
> Tim


I guess perception is everything. While the law keeps them from selling until said recall is addressed, it doesn't release them from the terms of the contract. And yes, the buy out option is a given. Under the terms of a closed end lease I have the option to buy, it is not BMW's option as to whether they want to sell it or not. BMW cannot rescind that option. That's the cool thing about contracts, and a lease is a contract, one side doesn't get to dictate terms after that contract is in effect. If they did there wouldn't be a single person out there that would have been able to buy out their 1M given the low residual and high value. BMW could have said tough luck, we're taking it back and reselling it at twice the price.

As far as doing me a favor? Telling me 10 days before I was going to cut a check and take possession that I can't even though I notified them over a month ago of my intentions and giving me little to no options is not what I'd call a favor. Hell, I'd say it's more like I'm doing them a favor by hanging on to it for a couple more months instead of it sitting in a lot with all the other 3500lb bricks they're going to be accumulating.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

tim330i said:


> But that option is no longer available as a result of a federal law. So BMW has no option to sell you the car per the law. There is case law when laws impact private contracts, they do not side with you. I also don't feel that a reasonable person sides with you, but I hope you take it to arbitration as I want to know the outcome. Watching a train wreck aside I think it is not a good use of money and you're going to end up behind in the end. You also have to pay for BMW's legal fees if you lose per the lease agreement.
> 
> Tim


Then the total legal fees could exceed the market value of the car. BMW would certainly send more than one lawyer to court and the combined billing rate for all those lawyers could exceed $1000 an hour. A couple of days of depositions and you are looking at $16,000.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

FLBimmer said:


> I guess perception is everything. While the law keeps them from selling until said recall is addressed, it doesn't release them from the terms of the contract. And yes, the buy out option is a given. Under the terms of a closed end lease I have the option to buy, it is not BMW's option as to whether they want to sell it or not. BMW cannot rescind that option. That's the cool thing about contracts, and a lease is a contract, one side doesn't get to dictate terms after that contract is in effect. If they did there wouldn't be a single person out there that would have been able to buy out their 1M given the low residual and high value. BMW could have said tough luck, we're taking it back and reselling it at twice the price.


If the law does not allow them to sell you the car, you will not be able to enforce that part of the contract. By the time the recall is addressed, you car will probably be at least two years older and worth less than the residual value. Would you really want to buy it then?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

One thing I don't recommend any of us do, either dealers, owners/lessees or forum monitors, is speculate on what legally can and can't be done.

Everyone has the right to seek counsel to interpret the contract.

Saying that, the lease contract, Section 40, "Waiver" may be what permits BMW FS to waive or delay the enforcement something in the lease without affecting other rights.

But I too am not an attorney. :angel:
~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

tim330i said:


> There is case law when laws impact private contracts, they do not side with you.
> Tim


Citations?

~M~


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

BMW's going to do whatever's best for BMW. I'm not going to sit around and worry about what they're going to do. It's BS but life's full of BS moments. If and when there's a class action I'm all in but there's no way I'm wasting $ on a lawyer over this. I'll give them a month and see if they can pull their collective heads out of their asses then it's on to Plan B which would be cheaper than Plan A, it just involves a lot of time and labor switching parts around.


----------



## stonex1 (Oct 10, 2012)

Long thread, so sorry if this was previously discussed.

I'm curious as to the actual issue with the inflator. Here's a quote from Consumer Reports:

At the heart of the problem is the airbag***8217;s inflator, a metal cartridge loaded with propellant
wafers, which in some cases has ignited with explosive force. If the inflator housing ruptures
in a crash, metal shards from the airbag can be sprayed throughout the
passenger cabin***8212;a potentially disastrous outcome from a supposedly life-saving device.

It now appears there are multiple causes, as well as several contributing factors, including
poor quality control in manufacture, several years of exposure in high heat and humidity
regions, and even the design of the car itself. If the propellant wafers break down, due to 
high humidity or another cause, the result is that the propellant burns too rapidly, creating
excessive pressure in the inflator body.

You would think that the if this were to actually happen, wouldn't the airbag itself then shield the driver?
I wonder how much metal (or material) is actually in the inflator module that is prone to becoming flying objects?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

stonex1 said:


> to actually happen, wouldn't the airbag itself then shield the driver? I wonder how much metal (or material) is actually in the inflator module that is prone to becoming flying objects?


Sizable enough to injure and kill. They rip through the airbag and are shrapnel-like projectiles at high velocity.

~M~


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> One thing I don't recommend any of us do, either dealers, owners/lessees or forum monitors, is speculate on what legally can and can't be done.
> 
> Everyone has the right to seek counsel to interpret the contract.
> 
> ...


I am not an attorney but I have been involved in litigation. It's not an experience I am keen on repeating. Anyone who wants legal advice should of course consult with an Attorney. Just understand that even if the Attorney believes you may have a case, it will be very expensive to litigate that case.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

I do not blame BMW for the airbags what I am frustrated about tis the way they are handling it. In my case I leased a car to buy, did extra maintenance i.e ( 1200 mile all fluid change, oil changes every 5000 miles, bmw PPE & PP, pedals, extra rims and snows, coco mats and more. you get the picture) I am 24k miles under as my work changed and they couldn't care less. The attitude was pay the same amount on a monthly basis or give the car back. I have 4 leases with them as I write this, been a customer for many years and they show no empathy for the situation. Seriously, they couldn't change my terms in the extension to at least not make me pay for extra miles? They couldn't even tell me how they came up with the residual or what happens when the two month extension ends. So my wife lease is up in 6 weeks she just put an order in for a new car and guess what she isn't getting a car from them if they continue on this path. This response from them isn't reasonable. So to say they are doing us a favor to continue to lease the car from them is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long time!


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Citations?
> 
> ~M~


Here is the Wikipedia entry for illegal contracts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_agreement

I don't know if it is illegal for BMW FS to sell an end of lease car with a recall, but if it is the above may be relevant.

but ask a lawyer of course.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> Just got off the phone with BMWFS. They were useless! I wanted to know when I could buy the car, they couldn't tell me.


What did you expect? They couldn't tell you because BMW hasn't told them yet, because BMW doesn't know yet.



> Wanted to know why in extending the lease I had to keep paying interest, dep plus the extra miles I originally bought on a pro-rated basis.


That's the way they have always done it when the extend leases up to six months waiting for an ordered car to arrive to replace the current lease. So any deviation from that would require "orders from headquarters."



> I bought 18k a year in miles but my work changed so I only used 30k in miles compared to 54k I was allowed. They still want me to keep making payment on the original amount of miles plus interest and dep. I told them that was not fair in my judgment. They supervisor told me that was my only option or I could turn my car in even after i explained all the extra money I had into the car.


See previous answer. This was expected. Anything else would require "orders from headquarters."



> Very disappointing!


I understand. But it was totally expected.



> Did not want to go down this road but I guess I will get an attorney to deal with this as I am not giving the car back and I am not paying on the same lease term as that is not right!


First you have to find an attorney willing to get into this issue. Obviously it will have to be an attorney who specializes in this area of the law.

Before you say you are not "giving the car back," may I remind you that they own the car and they have the legal right to repossess it if you do not comply with all the terms of the lease contract. They can enforce that right and have a lot of experience doing that. They don't even need a court order. They have title to it, not you. All they have to do is declare the lease in default and turn it over to a repossession contractor to pick it up. That's just the facts and something to consider carefully.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> What did you expect? They couldn't tell you because BMW hasn't told them yet, because BMW doesn't know yet.
> 
> That's the way they have always done it when the extend leases up to six months waiting for an ordered car to arrive to replace the current lease. So any deviation from that would require "orders from headquarters."
> 
> ...


I really don't need any reminders from you. That's just the fact!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

FLBimmer said:


> I guess perception is everything. While the law keeps them from selling until said recall is addressed, it doesn't release them from the terms of the contract.


It ABSOLUTEDLY does release them from the need to allow you to exercise the option to purchase the car is they are not allowed to sell the car until after they fix the safety-recall defect. They will almost certainly tell you that they will sell you the car as soon as they are legally allowed to do so. We know that they would be legally allowed to sell it to you after they fix the airbag but maybe the NHTSA will come up with another solution in the meantime???

So that's the situation. They can't sell it to you until after they fix it. You have the option to buy it ONLY if U.S. law allows them to sell it to you. I'm sure they would like nothing better than to be allowed to sell it to you. Too bad you don't live in a country like Canada where it probably isn't even on recall by Transport Canada. I haven't check them. I guess Canadians might be interested in doing that.



> And yes, the buy out option is a given. Under the terms of a closed end lease I have the option to buy, it is not BMW's option as to whether they want to sell it or not. BMW cannot rescind that option.


They didn't rescind it, they can't sell it to you even if they wanted to because it's against the law for them to do that.



> That's the cool thing about contracts, and a lease is a contract, one side doesn't get to dictate terms after that contract is in effect. If they did there wouldn't be a single person out there that would have been able to buy out their 1M given the low residual and high value.


You're not buying it until they are allowed to sell it to you and there is no court in the U.S. that would agree with your interpretation of your rights. Your rights under the contract do not override U.S. law. Your best hope now is that something will give and they will either come up with a fix very soon or the NHTSA will work out a way that allows them to sell the car to you sooner rather than later.

Good luck!


----------



## stonex1 (Oct 10, 2012)

Ninong said:


> Too bad you don't live in a country like Canada where it probably isn't even on recall by Transport Canada. I haven't check them. I guess Canadians might be interested in doing that.


AFAIK, it's completely off the radar. (at least as of today)
There are Takata airbag recalls, but I think for a different issue.

Here's the link:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/safevehicles-defectinvestigations-1433.html


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

stonex1 said:


> AFAIK, it's completely off the radar. (at least as of today)
> There are Takata airbag recalls, but I think for a different issue.
> 
> Here's the link:
> http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/safevehicles-defectinvestigations-1433.html


Those BMW recalls are to replace the Takata airbag inflator modules. Looks like the same models as those recalled in the U.S. but only through May 2015. I don't see any of the most recent 840,000 BMWs that were added to the NHTSA's recall list last month. Maybe BMW will recall those in Canada, too???

I see that the recall notice informs the customer that the airbag module should be replaced and they should make arrangements with their BMW dealer to have the work done as soon as possible. I guess the most important question that Americans might be wondering about would be whether Canadian law forbids the BMW dealers in Canada from selling a car in their possession if they have not yet "fixed" the safety defect? That's the big issue here. Especially now that it looks like it could be months before enough replacement parts become available to make their repairs now that, according to Automotive News, there are a total of 60 million Takata airbags worldwide on recall.

Transport Canada states that they have received no complaints about airbag failures there.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> What did you expect? They couldn't tell you because BMW hasn't told them yet, because BMW doesn't know yet.
> 
> That's the way they have always done it when the extend leases up to six months waiting for an ordered car to arrive to replace the current lease. So any deviation from that would require "orders from headquarters."
> 
> ...





angler said:


> I really don't need any reminders from you. That's just the fact!


Hi Nining:
I would like to apologize for my response to your post. I had a really bad day yesterday and the conversation I had with BMW was the icing on the cake. I was using the forum to vent and got tired of people telling me how it wasn't in my best interest to follow through with my non-rational rantings, (even though they were just trying to point out the obvious) I didn't want to hear it as I was feeling powerless in the moment and took it out on you. I can't take the words back but I can tell you that I am sorry for acting like a jerk, you didn't deserve that.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

angler said:


> Hi Nining:
> I would like to apologize for my response to your post. I had a really bad day yesterday and the conversation I had with BMW was the icing on the cake. I was using the forum to vent and got tired of people telling me how it wasn't in my best interest to follow through with my non-rational rantings, (even though they were just trying to point out the obvious) I didn't want to hear it as I was feeling powerless in the moment and took it out on you. I can't take the words back but I can tell you that I am sorry for acting like a jerk, you didn't deserve that.


This being the internet and all, its very nice of you to post something like that, as well as NOT delete your previous post. Most people on the internet just ignore what they said, or stop posting.

The situation is crappy all the way around thats for sure. Hope today is better for you.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

I have a 2013 X5 and live in Houston. I tried to call to get a loaner vehicle today to wait out the recall and was told by BMW NA that they could not help me but to refer to the dealer. I called the dealer and they specifically said "We do have loaners available, but we are not participating in loaners for the airbag recall. You will have to wait with your vehicle until parts are available." Both were literally NO help even though it seems they have been told to do so.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

adgrant said:


> If the law does not allow them to sell you the car, you will not be able to enforce that part of the contract. By the time the recall is addressed, you car will probably be at least two years older and worth less than the residual value. Would you really want to buy it then?


From the way BMWFS handles this it appears their expectation is that the lessees will use the extension(e.g. 2-month) to sort out Plan B such that the leased car can be returned.

Based on the BMWFS RV of 36-month versus 48/60-month, the depreciation of the leased cars beyond 36-month is quite steep, maybe that's why BMWFS does not discount extra miles(and such) from the monthly payment. In other words, allowing the lessees to keep the same payment during the extension can be more favorable to the lessees than to recompute the actual depreciation past 36-month.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

jjrandorin said:


> The situation is crappy all the way around thats for sure. Hope today is better for you.


Angler and I share amazing "small world" common ground. Great person.

And yes, crappy for all of us. BMW has put the dealer at ground zero with the clients.

~M~


----------



## leetracy40 (Feb 7, 2016)

This has been a great discussion of this issue from a slew of different perspectives. I have a 2012 x5 35d that I bought 2-5. So not truly an issue for me as I have no plans to trade. Not really worried about being harmed. I am probably more likely to be harmed riding my Harley than in my x5. Concerned about the potential drop in value but like the market it will probably go in the opposite direction I think it will. 

Now for my question. This is a self imposed stop sell from BMW to determine how to protect itself from a bad situation should it sell a car with an open defect. It is not US law that they are prohibited from selling? These are used cars and can be sold if BMW determined a way to limit its potential liability. I see comments here that seem to go both way. 

Thanks!!!!


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

leetracy40 said:


> T
> 
> Now for my question. This is a self imposed stop sell from BMW to determine how to protect itself from a bad situation should it sell a car with an open defect. It is not US law that they are prohibited from selling? These are used cars and can be sold if BMW determined a way to limit its potential liability. I see comments here that seem to go both way.


My understanding (making sure I avoid litigation ... :angel: ) is that the stop sale on new cars is required by law, and that the used car stop sale is mandated by the manufacturers, not law.

But I could be wrong.

~M~


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

This is what I found. Seems rather clear and illegal for BMW to sell any car with a know defect.



> The federal Motor Vehicle Safety Act (the Act) prohibits the sale and delivery of new vehicles subject to "stop sales" orders issued by vehicle manufacturers or the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), unless and until the defect is corrected. 49 USC 30120(i)(1). This prohibition does not prohibit dealers from offering such vehicles for sale, as long as the dealer does not actually sell or lease them. 49 USC 30120(i)(2); 49 CFR Part 573.11(b).


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> Hi Nining:
> I would like to apologize for my response to your post. I had a really bad day yesterday and the conversation I had with BMW was the icing on the cake. I was using the forum to vent and got tired of people telling me how it wasn't in my best interest to follow through with my non-rational rantings, (even though they were just trying to point out the obvious) I didn't want to hear it as I was feeling powerless in the moment and took it out on you. I can't take the words back but I can tell you that I am sorry for acting like a jerk, you didn't deserve that.


Don't mention it. I understand your frustration. When customers are upset with their car, their car dealership or their car's manufacturer, it's often difficult to explain to them what their position is without coming across as uncaring.

All I can say is that based on more than three decades of experience in the business I have seen this sort of thing before. Not an airbag recall that cannot be fixed right away but other situations where the customers were really upset about something or other and not sure of their legal rights.

Hopefully BMW can come up with some sort of solution, even if it's only temporary until permanent airbag replacements are available. Unfortunately it's the older cars from hot humid climates that are at the top of the priority list and that the NHTSA has ordered must be repaired first. None of those cars are on leases. The cars that are on leases are too new to be considered at risk from degraded ammonium nitrate propellant but that hasn't stopped the NHTSA from placing them on the recall list. It's a Catch 22.

Good luck!


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Don't mention it. I understand your frustration. When customers are upset with their car, their car dealership or their car's manufacturer, it's often difficult to explain to them what their position is without coming across as uncaring.
> 
> All I can say is that based on more than three decades of experience in the business I have seen this sort of thing before. Not an airbag recall that cannot be fixed right away but other situations where the customers were really upset about something or other and not sure of their legal rights.
> 
> ...


It is unlikely anyone inside and/or outside of the business has seen this before, at least not in this scale of breadth and depth. This is un-chartered territories.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

leetracy40 said:


> This is a self imposed stop sell from BMW to determine how to protect itself from a bad situation should it sell a car with an open defect. It is not US law that they are prohibited from selling?


It is U.S. law. The NHTSA was established by an act of Congress in 1970 and it is charged with establishing and enforcing highway safety standards for motor vehicles in the U.S. It has the authority to place cars on its recall list when it thinks it necessary. In this case, it decided to place ~30 million cars with Takata airbags on its recall list because information provided by Takata showed that certain Takata airbag inflation modules did not perform as required by federal standards when subjected to hot high-humidity climates over a period of several years or more. The ammonium nitrate showed a tendency to degrade under those situations, causing excess pressure to build up in the module which caused it to explode with too much force when triggered to deploy the airbag. This resulted in the module breaking apart and the module's metal and plastic shards shooting into the car's interior, potentially injuring the occupants.

Subsequent testing in May 2015 of 27,000 airbags removed from recalled older model cars in hot humid climates caused the NHTSA to add another 5 million cars to the 24 or 25 million already on its list.

The way the law is written, once a VIN is placed on the NHTSA's recall list and the car's manufacturer has been notified, he is required by law to take all necessary appropriate action to correct the problem without waiting for the NHTSA to get a court order demanding that he comply. Only when manufacturers refuse to take action does the NHTSA go to court and order them to take action. That hasn't happened in a long time as far as I know, but I definitely remember the NHTSA having to do that and the results were always that the NHTSA won.



> These are used cars and can be sold if BMW determined a way to limit its potential liability.


The way the law is written it only applies to the new car manufacturers and their dealerships. It does not apply to private individuals or used car dealers. If you own your car, the manufacturer is required to send you a recall notice telling you that there is a safety defect and that you should make arrangements with your dealer to have it fixed free of charge as soon as possible. You are free to ignore the recall. CarMax, a used car dealer, sells cars with open safety recalls all the time. That is why there is a bill pending in the Senate that would fix that loophole but the Senate is controlled but the political party currently in control of the Senate wants to do away with government regulations because they are costly to big business, so there's no telling if or when the bill will come to the floor for a vote.



Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> My understanding (making sure I avoid litigation ... :angel: ) is that the stop sale on new cars is required by law, and that the used car stop sale is mandated by the manufacturers, not law.


There are stop-sale orders that are issued by the EPA, such as those involving Dieselgate, and they apply to all cars in the manufacturers' possession and the possession of their dealerships. Those were issued by the EPA to the manufacturers, who in turn notified their dealers. They apply to any of the cars with those engines that they happen to have in their possession. That hasn't been worked out yet between VW and the EPA, believe it or not. VW is still arguing with them about how to fix the problem. I think the latest on that is that a court has given both of them a drop-dead deadline of April 21 and this time the court said they really mean it and won't keep giving them more extensions.

The other type of stop-sale order, the one we're talking about right now involving Takata airbags, is issued by the manufacturers as required by law in response to the NHTSA placing that VIN on its recall list. The law, as it is presently written, applies to new car manufacturers and their dealers but it does not apply to private individuals or used car dealers. Once a stop-sale order is issued, the car cannot be sold until after the safety defect is corrected.

Because there are more than 60 million Takata airbags on recall worldwide right now, there is a shortage of parts. Not only that, but Takata seems to be the only source for some of the older design modules and most manufacturers, including BMW, have been resisting using Takata for replacements. Right now three-fourths of the replacement modules are being supplied by parts manufacturers not named Takata. A few manufacturers have applied to the NHTSA for permission to use the same Takata modules known to be a problem later in life as temporary replacements because they can't get proper new replacements and they have several million cars on recall. The NHTSA has granted permission to those manufacturers to use fresh Takata modules as temporary replacements for the same design Takata modules in older cars but with the understanding that all of those cars will have to come back later when good modules are available.

That's the problem BMW is facing with the 420,000 cars that had a deadline of March 31, 2016 but which now have a new extended deadline of August 31, 2016. Other manufacturers don't make that type of inflator module, so it would be a new design for them. It appears that BMW desperately wants to avoid using Takata. I think I listed all of those models in a previous reply in this thread. Obviously they do not include cars currently on lease.

Here's one more thing I came across in an article about Takata's testimony. Okay, more than one more thing. Repeatedly over the past two years Takata has changed their testimony. Let's just say it has evolved, as the NHTSA confronted Takata with information reported by previous Takata engineers. One of the latest interesting facts was that Takata told the NHTSA it wasn't exactly sure which modules went into certain cars, so those cars were added to the list just to be on the safe side.



tim330i said:


> This is what I found. Seems rather clear and illegal for BMW to sell any car with a know defect.


That is my understand of it as well. Once a stop sale has been issued by any government agency, including the EPA, the car cannot be sold by the dealer or their dealerships if it is in their possession, or comes into their possession, until after the problem has been fixed.

The law charges the new car manufacturers with the responsibility for developing acceptable "fixes" that are approved by the appropriate government agency. The laws makes it the responsibility of the new car manufacturers to train and supervise their dealerships' employees in the proper techniques, using the proper parts supplied by the manufacturer, to carry out the mandated repairs free of charge.

The law does not currently extend to private owners or used car dealers, just new car manufacturers and their dealers. That's why leases are a problem and finance contracts are not.


----------



## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

namelessman said:


> It is unlikely anyone inside and/or outside of the business has seen this before, at least not in this scale of breadth and depth. This is un-chartered territories.


Just this past year I had to wait almost 6 months for a part to be manufactured in Germany for my 4Matic Mercedes. There wasn't a dealer in the country that had the part who would release it to another dealer. I asked the service advisor whether anyone had faced a similar inability to drive their vehicle for such a long period of time while just waiting for a part. He recalled a customer who had waited an entire year and they just ended up giving him a new car. The vehicle was a Subaru if I recall correctly.

By the way the dealer did offer me a loaner initially, but I foolishly said I could just wait since I would just drive my new BMW until snow came. That was when he thought the part could be secured from another dealer in a matter of weeks. Then snow came. However, by then they realized it would be months more and as a result the offer was no longer on the table. I ended up putting snow tires on my BMW convertible and having to drive it on snow days when I otherwise would have left it garaged.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It is unlikely anyone inside and/or outside of the business has seen this before, at least not in this scale of breadth and depth. This is un-chartered territories.


It is definitely unchartered territory. What's not new is having customers in a situation beyond the control of the dealership.


----------



## Giggity (Mar 29, 2016)

Looks like the recall is coming to Canada within a month according to a source at the Canadian office of Motor Vehicle Safety and Transport.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Giggity said:


> Looks like the recall is coming to Canada within a month according to a source at the Canadian office of Motor Vehicle Safety and Transport.


I figured that. It looks like all of the BMWs recalled there so far are the same models that are recalled in the U.S. but it looks like none of the latest 840,000 BMWs that were added to the NHTSA list last month show up on Transport Canada's list yet.


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Perhaps a bit off topic and please forgive me if the answer to my question is somewhere in this thread: For how long is an airbag supposed to operate properly,i.e., is there a time limit when all airbags are supposed to be replaced?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

rmorin49 said:


> Perhaps a bit off topic and please forgive me if the answer to my question is somewhere in this thread: For how long is an airbag supposed to operate properly,i.e., is there a time limit when all airbags are supposed to be replaced?


It hasn't been answered by anybody, anywhere according to Takata's attorney. That's one of Takata's defenses. I quoted his exact comment yesterday, I think. (Here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9597924&postcount=517 )

He told the NHTSA that it was the car manufacturers' fault for not specifying that the airbags needed to be tested for 15-20 years in order to certify them as safe for such long-term performance in hot humid climates.

So, if you can find an "official" answer to that question, be sure to add it to this thread. Thanks.


----------



## Papillo (Feb 11, 2008)

tim330i said:


> This is what I found. Seems rather clear and illegal for BMW to sell *any car *with a know defect.


But the excerpt you posted explicitly prohibits them from selling "New Vehicles" and not "any car" Is there a similar statute prohibiting the sale of pre-owned vehicles?

Or am i misreading it?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> My understanding (making sure I avoid litigation ... :angel: ) is that the stop sale on new cars is required by law...
> 
> *and that the used car stop sale is mandated by the manufacturers, not law*.
> 
> ...


Could the used cars be covered under "take all appropriate action?" Isn't that the way the NHTSA's mission is supposed to work according to the way it is charged with responsibility for establishing and ensuring compliance with federally-mandated safety requirements? Aren't the dealers required to "take all appropriate action" once a VIN shows up on the recall list without waiting for an official recall from the NHTSA?

Or maybe my understanding of how it works is wrong? Does anyone know if some of the manufacturers are NOT issuing stop-sale orders on used cars in the possession of their new car dealers? The reason I say that is because I read in an article about the need for an amendment to existing legislation to require used car dealers to fix safety defects in used cars before selling them is that it was said that the law applies to new car dealers but not used car dealers and private individuals, it didn't say anything about not applying to used cars in the possession of new car dealers. It gave the impression that they were already covered by existing law.

If the law doesn't apply to any used cars, then it could be that the manufacturers are unwilling to allow their dealers to sell them since all of the current lawsuits against Honda, Toyota and others are because of defective Takata airbags in cars that are several years old. That 2001 Honda Civic that was on the recall list since 2009 was actually being used by a cheapy rental car company that did not take it back to the dealer for the recall or inform the customer that the car had an airbag that had been on the recall list for 6 years already.

You know how lawyers are, they are sure to name everybody, starting with the deepest pockets.

What about the EPA recall of all those Dieselgate cars? Are VW dealers taking those cars in trade and then reselling them? I thought it applied to all cars in the dealer's possession subject to the recall? That's not a safety defect unless you include the fact that perhaps an extra dozen people a year may be dying from lung disease thanks to all that extra NOx pumped into the atomosphere by VW's deliberate deception.

By the way, the FTC has just filed suit against VW of America alleging fraud and deceptive advertising for claiming in their advertising for years that their cars were clean diesels and green or whatever. Remember all those BS claims VW has been making over the years about how great their cars are for the environoment? In the EU they're being hit with enormous fines because they are going to have to pay back all the credits they claimed for years for themselves and for their customers based on fraudulent CO2 emissions claims on petrol engines. On top of all that, the German prosecutors finally expanded their list of targets within the VW Group that are the subject of criminal investigation from the original six to a much larger number. VW is hilarious. They deny, deny, deny and then they simply issue some bland statement that they were deceived by a couple of unknown engineers and that, like O.J. Simpson, they're still looking for the real perps.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> So with the extension of my lease, I've been asked by BMW FS to sign a lease extension authorization form. On the documentation, there's a part that says "The terms of your lease extension are as follows:" then it lists new maturity date (2 months later), a revised residual amount, and new total allowed mileage. I am a little baffled that the residual amount was reduced a lot less than I expected, the rep had said something about sales tax is not included...but even if I deduct sales tax from it, the math still doesn't add up. After a very frustrating phone call with a BMW FS who flat out refused to walk me through the math, saying that it's a moot point as the federal government does not allow them to sell the car to me anyway and him sighing very loudly into the phone to express his frustration (mind you that I was courteous with him the entire time, stating that I am not disputing the number but simply want his help to clarify it) and then finally got connected to his supervisor, it looks like only the depreciation charge of the monthly lease payment would be credited against the residual, the sales tax and the money factor / interest would still be on you. While I think it really sucks that I have to pay 2 extra months of interest to them, I guess there's really no way to get out of it. Hope this helps those of you who are affected.


How did this turn out? Did you sign the two-month extension? Did BMWFS lower your monthly payment?

Thanks.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> It is definitely unchartered territory. What's not new is having customers in a situation beyond the control of the dealership.


It is new to potentially have one million+ unhappy customers from one automaker, let alone 30+ million across the whole industry. All the experience and training of a lifetime in sales and service do not fully prepare for(albeit help with) this.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Got both letters yesterday one from Acura about my 2012 TL and one from BMW about the X5. 

Wording was the same, apart from BMW diminishing the consequences, while it is true no injuries or fatalities have occurred because of this in BMW cars it is also misleading to the customer. Also no fix on sight.

The Acura letter says that there has been injuries and fatalities in general and they will have a fix before the end of summer 2016.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Quatro40 said:


> Got both letters yesterday one from Acura about my 2012 TL and one from BMW about the X5.
> 
> Wording was the same, apart from BMW diminishing the consequences, while it is true no injuries or fatalities have occurred because of this in BMW cars it is also misleading to the customer. Also no fix on sight.
> 
> The Acura letter says that there has been injuries and fatalities in general and *they will have a fix before the end of summer 2016.*


*
*

Of course that is subject to amendment, but still pretty bold. If the client is already angry, better deliver on what you promise.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

"The Acura letter says that there has been injuries and fatalities in general and they will have a fix before the end of summer 2016."



need4speed said:


> [/B]
> 
> Of course that is subject to amendment, but still pretty bold. If the client is already angry, better deliver on what you promise.


I think that most if not all of the manufacturers will be doing like-for-like replacement to reset the clock if they are going to do recall work this summer. In reading NHTSA's reports, there doesn't appear to be much "new" airbag systems (i.e. not the bad Takata ones) available. Don't know this as fact, but supposition from the docs.

Also, if anyone wants any easier way to say NHTSA in your head, it's called "NITSAH."

Used to work in that world...

~M~


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> "The Acura letter says that there has been injuries and fatalities in general and they will have a fix before the end of summer 2016."
> 
> I think that most if not all of the manufacturers will be doing like-for-like replacement to reset the clock if they are going to do recall work this summer. In reading NHTSA's reports, there doesn't appear to be much "new" airbag systems (i.e. not the bad Takata ones) available. Don't know this as fact, but supposition from the docs.
> 
> ...


Hi Michael, how many of your customers that you encounter lately want to by their lease end vehicle but cannot proceed due to the recall? Just a rough count to see are there many of them out there similar to me that want to purchase my E92 M3 at lease end.

Thanks


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> ...similar to me that want to purchase my E92 M3 at lease end.


When does your lease end? Have you talked to BMWFS yet? This seems to be an evolving situation and it's sort of like hitting a moving target. Individual results may vary depending on how recent someone had that discussion.

In general, it appears that anyone expressing a desire to purchase their leased vehicle at lease end if being offered a two-month extension as sort of a stop-gap measure. If your lease ends soon, I suggest you call BMWFS and tell them that *you aren't sure yet* whether you want to turn the car back or buy it. Ask them how that works? When they offer you the two-month extension, tell them you were expecting a reduction in the monthly payment.

Let us know how it turns out.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> Of course that is subject to amendment, but still pretty bold. If the client is already angry, better deliver on what you promise.


Most, but not all, of the Takata inflator modules can be replaced with modules provided by other manufacturers that do not use ammonium nitrate as the propellant. The other manufacturers have stepped up production of inflator modules to fill this need. AutoLiv added 12 new production lines in their facilities around the world just to produce replacement inflator modules.

If push comes to shove, the NHTSA has granted permission to some manufacturers to use existing Takata airbag inflator modules that are of the same design as the ones that failed after many years of exposue to hot humid climates. Those are temporary fixes and those cars will have to be brought back for repair once better modules become available. BMW is having that problem right now with one of the Takata module designs. They really, really don't want to deal with Takata.

This article from last month in the WSJ is a good summary of just how much Takata lied and cheated over the years in order to get away with this scheme: http://www.wsj.com/articles/auto-makers-pinpoint-root-causes-for-takata-air-bag-ruptures-1456259118

I hate to point out the obvious, but please note that this investigation is being conducted by the "minority staff" in the Senate, apparently without the participation of the majority because the political party that is control of the US House of Representatives and the US Senate does not seem to be interested in what they describe as "unnecessary government regulations." All those government regulations are too costly to corporations, and, as Mitt Romney says, "corporations are people, too." We should think about the costs of this recall to the corporations and forget about the deaths and injuries. Stuff happens, right?


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

Ninong said:


> How did this turn out? Did you sign the two-month extension? Did BMWFS lower your monthly payment?
> 
> Thanks.


Hi Nonong, I signed the 2-month extension and they only reduced the residual by the depreciation amount of the payment rather than netting out the entire 2 monthly payments. The dealer where I bought my car from actually sent me a promotion with various savings on a new X1 that expires at end of this...I think it's because they think I will have to return the car at the end of my extension...I am ignoring that promo for now bcs I don't really know if I want the new 2016 X1, I may just buy a different brand. In the meantime, I am setting up a pre-inspection just in case I do have to return it.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> I have a 2013 X5 and live in Houston. I tried to call to get a loaner vehicle today to wait out the recall and was told by BMW NA that they could not help me but to refer to the dealer. I called the dealer and they specifically said "We do have loaners available, but we are not participating in loaners for the airbag recall. You will have to wait with your vehicle until parts are available." Both were literally NO help even though it seems they have been told to do so.


My service manager just called me and said he would have a loaner available for me in a few days. I will have to swap it out every couple of weeks until the parts arrive.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> My service manager just called me and said he would have a loaner available for me in a few days. I will have to swap it out every couple of weeks until the parts arrive.


This sounds like a win in my book. Are they keeping/storing your car are asking you to sign a waiver that you will not drive your own car and having you park your car in the driveway?

I also have a 2013 X5 and was offered a rental/ waiver option.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Arciga18 said:


> This sounds like a win in my book. Are they keeping/storing your car are asking you to sign a waiver that you will not drive your own car and having you park your car in the driveway?
> 
> I also have a 2013 X5 and was offered a rental/ waiver option.


I am assuming I will leave it there, but I haven't been told yet. If I do leave it there I wonder if it will be covered (I will insist as it is covered at home) and have a trickle charger put on it. I was also told that there are tons of incentives being offered "in the thousands of dollars' towards a trade or lease. I said I would be interested in learning more about this and someone is supposed to be getting back to me on this.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> Hi Nonong, I signed the 2-month extension and they only reduced the residual by the depreciation amount of the payment rather than netting out the entire 2 monthly payments. The dealer where I bought my car from actually sent me a promotion with various savings on a new X1 that expires at end of this...I think it's because they think I will have to return the car at the end of my extension...I am ignoring that promo for now bcs I don't really know if I want the new 2016 X1, I may just buy a different brand. In the meantime, I am setting up a pre-inspection just in case I do have to return it.


Here's a hint. When the current 2-month extension expires, assuming you want another 2-month extension, tell them you want a $150 reduction in the monthly payment. I know of someone in an X1 who was just given a $150 reduction in his monthly payment to induce him to sign an extension because he told BMWFS he wasn't sure if he wanted to buy it or just turn it in to the dealer. Remember, if you turn it in to the dealer, BMWFS will have to pay the dealer a monthly assistance package to cover flooring and storage costs. In other words, it's going to cost BMWFS a bunch of money every month for every car that gets turned in to the dealer that can't be sold.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Here's a hint. When the current 2-month extension expires, assuming you want another 2-month extension, tell them you want a $150 reduction in the monthly payment. I know of someone in an X1 who was just given a $150 reduction in his monthly payment to induce him to sign an extension because he told BMWFS he wasn't sure if he wanted to buy it or just turn it in to the dealer. Remember, if you turn it in to the dealer, BMWFS will have to pay the dealer a monthly assistance package to cover flooring and storage costs. In other words, it's going to cost BMWFS a bunch of money every month for every car that gets turned in to the dealer that can't be sold.


Oh wow, thanks so much Ninong for the advice! I will certainly ask them about it! I really wish that they would offer this across the board to people, perhaps they sensed my desperation in my voice and also because I told them that I'd want to buy this car that it took away my leverage to negotiate. Thanks again, I will report back if there's any new development on my end!


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

Ninong said:


> Here's a hint. When the current 2-month extension expires, assuming you want another 2-month extension, tell them you want a $150 reduction in the monthly payment. I know of someone in an X1 who was just given a $150 reduction in his monthly payment to induce him to sign an extension because he told BMWFS he wasn't sure if he wanted to buy it or just turn it in to the dealer. Remember, if you turn it in to the dealer, BMWFS will have to pay the dealer a monthly assistance package to cover flooring and storage costs. In other words, it's going to cost BMWFS a bunch of money every month for every car that gets turned in to the dealer that can't be sold.


Hmmm, I may have to try this. Why wouldn't BMWFS extend the lease as long as necessary if it meant they could sell you the car once the recall is addressed? It seems like a no-brainer to keep the money flowing instead of having a unsellable car sitting on the lot for the same amount of time. I'm in Florida and I should be on the shorter end of the parts wait.


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

Got an F15. When all this is fixed, i'll jump ship to the f15 platforms. Hopefully by the time this ends, we do not have a major economic downturn. This is like a tsunami that is developing and people cannot see it until is too late. We are talking jobs at the dealers, plants, financial services. If I cannot trade in my car, how am I going to buy a new one? This affects everything. Sales numbers are going to go down accross the board. This is a new 2009 in the making.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> Oh wow, thanks so much Ninong for the advice! I will certainly ask them about it! I really wish that they would offer this across the board to people, perhaps they sensed my desperation in my voice and also because I told them that I'd want to buy this car that it took away my leverage to negotiate. Thanks again, I will report back if there's any new development on my end!


As I think I posted previously, and as Michael has posted very recently, this is a moving target. BMW's response seems to be evolving. What they said two weeks or three weeks ago may not be the same as what they are saying now.

In this particular situation, which was very, very recent. The customer called BMWFS and told them the lease on his X1 was up in a few days but he had not yet decided on whether he wanted exercise what he though was his option to buy it at the end of the lease. Then he called the dealership to ask them for the details on buying it so that he could make up his mind if he wanted it or not and they told him they were prohibited from selling it to him.

So he called BMWFS and asked them "what's that all about?" They offered him a 2-month extension with a $150/month reduction in his monthly payment if he would keep it. Then he gets to decide what's next at the end of that extension. They told him they couldn't sell it to him right now but they hoped to get that resolved very soon. That was last Friday. In a different state that is very, very close to your state, just a little farther north.  The customer worked that out on his own with BMWFS in a phone call from him to them.

Here's another thing that's important to remember whenever you call those guys. Sometimes the first person you get on the phone is not the one you really want to talk to. You have to know how to move up the line so to speak. Always do so politely. They're all suckers for a customer in a difficult situation when the customer is very nice about it. That's because they're used to dealing with customers who are often not all that nice over the phone.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

FLBimmer said:


> Hmmm, I may have to try this. Why wouldn't BMWFS extend the lease as long as necessary if it meant they could sell you the car once the recall is addressed? It seems like a no-brainer to keep the money flowing instead of having a unsellable car sitting on the lot for the same amount of time. I'm in Florida and I should be on the shorter end of the parts wait.


I know exactly what you mean and I could only speculate on why it's only a two-month extension. For one thing, maybe they will offer another two-month extension at the end of the first one if they are still unable to fix the car? Maybe a third extension, if necessary? Six months from now would be the end of September. Or just add six months to your expiration date.

Yes, Florida residents are at the top of the priority list. You're absolutely right about that and that was determined by the NHTSA. Even if your car's lease is not even close to expiring, you would still be at the top of the list for that model year. The people who are a top priority right now are the ones in older cars who live in Florida and the other Gulf Coast states, plus Georgia and South Carolina. As well as Puerto Rico and Guam. So I don't know how that's going to work. Will BMW be able to fix cars that are at the end of the lease once the parts are available before certain others? What about the cars that have already been turned in to the dealers that are costing BMW hundreds of dollars a month in financial assistance to the dealers?

You want to know what I think? I think nobody knows for sure that they will do next because they're pushing as hard as they can for replacement modules from a supplier not named Takata. Takata would be their last resort and only out of desperation.


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

It's the uncertainty that's killing me. If it's REALLY only going to be extended for two months (June 11th for me) my point of no return is really the beginning of May to allow myself enough time to find a suitable 335is replacement and swap all the upgrades I've made out and who knows if BMWFS will be able to give me a answer at that point about extending my lease another 2, 4, or whatever months. Or I buy another one and a week later they tell me never mind, you can keep it as long as necessary as long as you continue to make payments. I know, first world problems.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Why would you do upgrades on a lease car before you end up buying it, it doesn't make sense.


----------



## BMW_AUS (Mar 19, 2013)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> First and most important, the stop sale continues. NO changes there.
> 
> No change that there is BMW NA financial support to dealers to carry cars that can't be sold. This includes trade in vehicles, to help maintain value of the trades.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the updates, does above applied to all BMW dealers nationwide?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Just got off the phone with bmwfs. The program will be 150.00 off lease for two months, plus 2500 credit if you move to a new car on top of any other incentives they are running. Said the program wouldn't be official for a few more days and they will reach out to start the process. She said it's more then likely that BMW will not let you buy the car and will be taking them back as it's going to take a long time to fix all the cars.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Quatro40 said:


> Why would you do upgrades on a lease car before you end up buying it, it doesn't make sense.


Lots of people. If you knew you were going to buy the car why would you wait. This is a one of a kind event.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

People forget that when they lease a car they are renting the car from the manufacturer you don't own the car and don't have any rights to it apart from what is stipulated on the contract. 

I only buy cash or finance.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

BMW_AUS said:


> Thank you for the updates, does above applied to all BMW dealers nationwide?


Yes.

And is appears from Angler's post, it's just starting to get implemented or trained at BMW FS.

~M~


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Quatro40 said:


> People forget that when they lease a car they are renting the car from the manufacturer you don't own the car and don't have any rights to it apart from what is stipulated on the contract.
> 
> I only buy cash or finance.


This is the only situation where you couldn't exercise your rights to buy.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

angler said:


> This is the only situation where you couldn't exercise your rights to buy.


There has been other situations, and sometimes they don't let buy the same car for x reason but another model it happened to me back in the late 90s on a Mazda Millenia lease I had.


----------



## ccyippy (Mar 11, 2016)

angler said:


> Just got off the phone with bmwfs. The program will be 150.00 off lease for two months, plus 2500 credit if you move to a new car on top of any other incentives they are running. Said the program wouldn't be official for a few more days and they will reach out to start the process. She said it's more then likely that BMW will not let you buy the car and will be taking them back as it's going to take a long time to fix all the cars.


I suppose that I should speak with BMW FS today too. I wonder if they would retroactively give me the $150/month reduction since I already extended my lease back in mid-March.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ccyippy said:


> I suppose that I should speak with BMW FS today too. I wonder if they would retroactively give me the $150/month reduction since I already extended my lease back in mid-March.


No harm in asking. Tell them you heard about another customer with an X1 on lease that was about to expire who called them and was offered a $150/month reduction in his monthly payment if he would agree to sign a 2-month lease extension. That happened last Friday. I just heard about it Monday.


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

Quatro40 said:


> People forget that when they lease a car they are renting the car from the manufacturer you don't own the car and don't have any rights to it apart from what is stipulated on the contract.
> 
> I only buy cash or finance.


You don't forget unless you're an idiot. It's a calculated risk. I knew this particular model had the potential to either match or exceed the residual in market value as time progressed and it has. It's very easy to follow the current market value and compare to the payoff at any given time. I've done very well on any cars I've bought the lease out because they were either limited production, developed a cult following, or both. I decided a couple years ago that I would buy it out. It was a custom order, limited production, 5k mile/yr car and it current value is very close to the residual and there was absolutely no foreseeable problem that would keep me from buying it...until this fiasco.

I would love to know what "x" reasons are for denying a lessee his option to purchase at the end of a closed end lease but I bet you could count the amount of times it's happened on one hand.

The huge issue with this as it applies to me is the two week time period I got from when I found out to when the lease matured. Even the two month extension is what I would consider the bare minimum to find and buy a replacement and switch parts. Again this whole thing would all be a non-issue in 99.99% of all end lease purchases.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Quatro40 said:


> Got both letters yesterday one from Acura about my 2012 TL and one from BMW about the X5.
> 
> Wording was the same, apart from BMW diminishing the consequences, while it is true no injuries or fatalities have occurred because of this in BMW cars it is also misleading to the customer. Also no fix on sight.
> 
> The Acura letter says that there has been injuries and fatalities in general and they will have a fix before the end of summer 2016.


@Quatro40,

Since you have affected cars from 2 different "luxury" manufacturers (both Acura and BMW), you are in a fairly unique position to tell us what the differences are on your experiences with the two manufacturers responses going forward.

Please let us know both how Acura assists you with this issue (what they do, loaners, etc) and how BMW does the same. I would be interested in hearing this compared.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Ninong said:


> No harm in asking. Tell them you heard about another customer with an X1 on lease that was about to expire who called them and was offered a $150/month reduction in his monthly payment if he would agree to sign a 2-month lease extension. That happened last Friday. I just hear about it Monday.


Let me call tomorrow morning and see what happen...


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

It may be about to get waaaaaay worse: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/airbag-recall-could-cost-takata-24-billion-n547756

If this worst case scenario happens (287 million replacements needed) the competition for airbag providers is about to get even worse, and I'd expect replacement times to go up dramatically. The amount of capacity to make replacements isn't this elastic.

Ugly all around.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Quatro40 said:


> Got both letters yesterday one from Acura about my 2012 TL and one from BMW about the X5.
> 
> Wording was the same, apart from BMW diminishing the consequences, while it is true no injuries or fatalities have occurred because of this in BMW cars it is also misleading to the customer. Also no fix on sight.
> 
> The Acura letter says that there has been injuries and fatalities in general and they will have a fix before the end of summer 2016.


Well Acura can't really claim no one has died in their cars since Acuras are Hondas and Honda drivers have experienced almost all the fatalities in the US to date. There is also some evidence that suggests Honda has previously covered up the issue.

The summer fix is somewhat believable as Honda has been working on this problem for a while.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Why would you do upgrades on a lease car before you end up buying it, it doesn't make sense.


Pleople upgrade their leased cars all the time. In fact, in was quite common back in the days when the residual was a realistic prediction of the car's anticipated wholesale value at the end of the lease term. Now you have to know whether your car's residual is obviously too high or too low before you do something like that, unless you are determined to buy it anyway, perhaps even getting a better selling price than the stated residual.

Just because it's a leased car doesn't stop most people from tricking it out, even though they know they would have to return it to its original delivered condition before turning it in. That's because they have no intention of ever turning it in. Something like the current situation is extremely rare. It's unprecedented to have an open safety recall and not know when the replacement parts will be available.

Think of this as a possible worst case scenario for maybe an actual customer out there. What if he lease a new M3 or M4 or M6 three years ago and then, knowing he would keep it, he traded in the factory wheels for after-market wheels that cost him an additional $8,000+ and changed the exhaust to an Akrapovic exhaust that cost him $10,000 and maybe added the carbon fiber mirror caps and the black grills and black chrome trim, and front and rear splitters, etc. In other words, the car now has $30,000 more stuff on it and he can't return it to it's original condition even if he wanted to because he no longer has the OEM parts that it came with. How do you think that guys feels? Fortunately he's not posting to this thread or it would have blown skyhigh by now. :yikes:


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

zx10guy said:


> So someone has no intention of turning the car in, why not just buy the car outright in the first place? I never have leased a car before and will admit there is probably gaps in my knowledge of leasing. From a financial situation if the intent is to keep the car at the end of either a lease or finance, why would one pick a lease over financing?


I leased a Z4 sDrive35is few years ago (2011) for the unbelievable deal. My combine lease payment (24 months) and the negotiated buy back price offered by BMWFS (I didn't buy after all) will be less than if I bought the car outright at the lease inception. The margin pretty substantial...so leasing than buy have some benefit if you know what you are doing...


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> Two explanations: (1) It has always been the case when calling BMWFS for information that it's up to you to know whether you are satisfied with the answer you get and if you feel the person you are talking to is totally informed or not. Don't forget that answering the phone is sort of an entry-level position. You have to know when and how to ask to speak to someone else. (2) This is an evolving situation. BMW's responses are changing week by week, even day by day.
> 
> You can really stop right there after "they don't have to," because that applies to almost all relationships that involve (1) The manufacturer, (2) The licensed independent dealer, and (3) The customer.
> 
> ...


The point that is getting missed here IMO looks like this. They should not be building the bridge as they are walking on it. I get this is an ongoing process but to keep making changes every other day is unnecessary. It would have been better if they said in the beginning we don't know how to handle this at the moment as there are many factors involved and we need a little time to consider all the iterations of this situation. We promise we will take care of everyone to the best of our ability and we will be back in touch shortly with a more definitive solution to the situation. (something like that) IMO people shouldn't have to negotiate on when the 150 reduction starts (as an example) or having to keep asking for supervisors ever time you call in. The framework should be the same for everyone and then take in to consideration the nuances for individual situations. Just my two cents for what it's worth.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

angler said:


> Just got off the phone with BMWFS. Told me they got word last night that they will be able to re-lease your car for an extra year @ 150.00 less then your current payment. Told me they would be back in touch next week to start the process if I was interested. I guess you wake up everyday because you never know what the tide is going to bring in. Anyway thats the latest news that I have to report.


Great news, I can take a 12 months extension for my lease to wait for the part...


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> I don't see how this works, as noted the owner can't waive liability for anyone but themselves and in some states/situations their own children. The list of people who could sue BMW even with a liability waiver from the owner is endless. Off the top of my head, spouse, friends, in laws, other children (car pool), valets,


I don't see how it works either but that's just something that was reported in one of the articles on this situation. Who, besides BMW's own legal department, would have to sign off on it before it was offered? There are a lot of open questions on that option but it certainly would be acceptable to anyone who wants to keep their car. It would be better than being forced to give it back with just a promise that they can buy it once it's fixed, whenever that happens to be.

Millions and millions of people around the world are driving these cars now while waiting for replacement airbags to become available. If there are 200 million people with Takata airbags worldwide that have not yet been "fixed" (a low estimate) and each one drives 10,000 miles per year, that's about 2 trillion miles per year and so far we know of 10 fatalities and about 136 incidents involving injuries over the past decade or so, mostly in the U.S. since our reporting is better. Obviously injuries in many accidents may have gone unreported as being caused by a defective airbag inflator module.

So the odds are pretty low to start with, especially if you're in one of the cars with no reported injuries, such as BMW. However, Takata's testing showed that the type of inflator module they used in certain BMWs showed a failure rate of 0.07% (1 in 1,429 inflations). If you're driving one of the Hondas on the list, your odds are 1 in 46 inflations. The first nine fatalities were all in Hondas. The tenth was in a Ford Ranger pickup that was more than ten years old.

I wonder how much Honda paid out on each of those unreported, out-of-court settlements on those fatalities, going all the way back to 2004 when they settled the first one that happened in 2002? I wonder if those people knew that they might have received as much as $75 million if somebody had taken a short video clip through their hotel room door's keyhole while they were undressing? I wonder how much Honda, or somebody, will have to pay for that fatality in a 2001 Honda Civic that was on the recall list for six years already when it was rented out in 2015? I have never even heard of renting out a 14-yr-old Honda Civic before??? How much is that, $10/day?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> The point that is getting missed here IMO looks like this. They should not be building the bridge as they are walking on it. I get this is an ongoing process but to keep making changes every other day is unnecessary.


Maybe they didn't have enough lawyers to figure this out fast enough for the more than 100 countries they do business in?


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

Ninong said:


> Fearless prediction: When your lease is up you will sign a 12-month extension because you will like that offer best. You will have the option to buy the car once the airbag is replaced. Hopefully that will be done sooner rather than later but before the 12-month extension is done.
> 
> Good luck!


You must be Nostradamus! The two month extension starts April 11th and payment was sent. Now I just need to get the reduced payment and credit for the one already sent.:thumbup:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> Great news, I can take a 12 months extension for my lease to wait for the part...


:beerchug:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

FLBimmer said:


> You must be Nostradamus!


Not really. I just know from many years of experience that they don't want you to be unhappy. They definitely don't want to force you to give your car back if you want to keep it. They will do everything possible to make that happen, no matter how long it takes their legal department to figure it out. For you and all the other people just like you.

:beerchug:


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

I just call and told her (the rep) that I got the 2 months extension couple weeks ago and one of my friend told me that he got his extension with $150 knock off for the two payment. She put me on hold for like 5 minutes and come back saying that she spoke with her supervisor and not aware of such a things of $150 off 

She also told me that there is no change as of today about my lease end buying 

Should I call again tomorrow, can anyone successfully get the payment reduction PM me on the name of the rep so that I can have more info?

Thanks


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> Great news, I can take a 12 months extension for my lease to wait for the part...





Prost said:


> I just call and told her (the rep) that I got the 2 months extension couple weeks ago and one of my friend told me that he got his extension with $150 knock off for the two payment. She put me on hold for like 5 minutes and come back saying that she spoke with her supervisor and not aware of such a things of $150 off
> 
> She also told me that there is no change as of today about my lease end buying
> 
> ...


What happened? I thought they had agreed to give you the 12-mo extension and that's the way your were going?

Anway, here's where you are right now. You're already on a 2-mo extension. By the time that extension is up, you will be able to choose a longer extension with better terms.

You're right, they don't all know what's going on because it's not officially official yet. Might take a few more days. That's what I have heard. You knew more than the last person you were talking to, okay. If you still want to try to bust them for $150 reduction in your second payment of your current 2-mo extension, wait until the end of next week. By that time they should all be on the same page. Technically if you signed an extension agreement, then that's sort of like a contract and you would have to wait until that "agreement" is up before dealing with them on a new "agreement."


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> She also told me that there is no change as of today about my lease end buying


She can only tell you what _she_ knows. You know that you will almost certainly be offered a much longer extension with better terms when your current 2-mo extension is up. You know that but she doesn't, okay. 

You know that you will be able to buy the car at any time during that next extension if the parts become available and the airbag is fixed. She doesn't know that and she can't tell you that because she hasn't been authorized to say that. But you know that.

You know that if you want to buy the car, BMW wants to sell it to you. You know that BMW is doing everything they possibly can to come up with replacements for the defective Takata airbag inflators but they now hate Takata and don't want to buy any replacement inflator modules from those guys. You know that AutoLiv is now the largest manufacturer of airbags in the world and that they have about 80 different manufacturing facilities worldwide making a variety of parts for the automotive industry, including airbags, and that they have recently added 12 new production lines just to produce replacement modules for the Takata modules on recall. You know that the other airbag manufacturers are doing the same. But you also know that all of the airbag manufacturers not named Takata have experienced a surge of new business recently because, for some strange reason, many of the new car manufacturers do not like Takata at all. :yikes:

You know that it's all going to work out in the end and you're going to keep your car without having to turn it back and the airbag will get replaced and this will all be ancient history. You just don't know what you will be told by the next person you talk to at BMWFS. That's always a surprise, isn't it.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> Maybe they didn't have enough lawyers to figure this out fast enough for the more than 100 countries they do business in?


That's my point, maybe they should have taken a pregnant pause before speaking. Someone once told me it's the space between the notes that makes the music. On another note thanks for all your time you spend on the forum. :thumbup:


----------



## psycho (Jul 2, 2002)

Talking to my sales manager today, he told me that the only pull-ahead program that will be offered the rest of the year is for airbag-affected cars. He may be exaggerating, but maybe it's true that BMW is simply trying to get the affected vehicles in and make a sale at the same time.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Ninong said:


> Not really. I just know from many years of experience that they don't want you to be unhappy. They definitely don't want to force you to give your car back if you want to keep it. They will do everything possible to make that happen, no matter how long it takes their legal department to figure it out. For you and all the other people just like you.
> 
> :beerchug:


Or maybe they don't want to be sitting on a bunch of lease returns they can't sell.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

adgrant said:


> Or maybe they don't want to be sitting on a bunch of lease returns they can't sell.


:thumbup:


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Ninong said:


> I don't see how it works either but that's just something that was reported in one of the articles on this situation. Who, besides BMW's own legal department, would have to sign off on it before it was offered? There are a lot of open questions on that option but *it certainly would be acceptable to anyone who wants to keep their car*. It would be better than being forced to give it back with just a promise that they can buy it once it's fixed, whenever that happens to be.
> 
> Millions and millions of people around the world are driving these cars now while waiting for replacement airbags to become available. If there are 200 million people with Takata airbags worldwide that have not yet been "fixed" (a low estimate) and each one drives 10,000 miles per year, that's about 2 trillion miles per year and so far we know of 10 fatalities and about 136 incidents involving injuries over the past decade or so, mostly in the U.S. since our reporting is better. Obviously injuries in many accidents may have gone unreported as being caused by a defective airbag inflator module.
> 
> ...


I agree that the client may want to do this, and from BMW's perspective it would reduce their risk somewhat, to the extent that it was only the person who signed the waiver (assuming no GN) that was injured/killed. However the rest of the risk pool is huge. That is what I meant by BMW would need to be really desperate. Like literally nothing to loose desperate. I'm sure somewhere someone is running the risk scenario. N4S


----------



## asus389 (May 20, 2009)

I was in for service yesterday at my dealer and I spoke to the service manager about the situation. He said not all cars in the year range are effected, but they could add more at any time. He also confirmed there is a program to allow people who feel unsafe to get into a rental car until parts become available. He said its very unlikely the loaner/rentals would be BMWs. Much of this has to do with the fact that many/most BMWs are effected by the recall, so if someone is saying they don't want to drive their own car because of the issue they go out of their way to get them into a make that doesn't have a Takata part.


----------



## ajds (Apr 1, 2016)

*Options*

I'm one of those who don't feel great about driving my car at this point and I'm trying to sort out my options.
Lease ends at the end of December.
My take is that a loaner (not offered yet, but I'm being a squeaky wheel) would cost them about $50 a day for 6-9 months. So between $9 and $13k.

The dealer has only offered to end the lease to put me in a new one- the main problem is that I use a roof box and the new X1 is just a little taller than a garage I use a lot.

I'd move to a 3 wagon, but the cost is higher. I asked them to just move me over with a flat payment, but that wasn't flying. I know it sounds a bit greedy, but they could give me a huge discount (better than my offer), save money, and keep me as a customer. My offer was $4600 less than what they put on the table for a car in stock over 36 months.

Am I nuts?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> I agree that the client may want to do this, and from BMW's perspective it would reduce their risk somewhat, to the extent that it was only the person who signed the waiver (assuming no GN) that was injured/killed. However the rest of the risk pool is huge. That is what I meant by BMW would need to be really desperate. Like literally nothing to loose desperate. I'm sure somewhere someone is running the risk scenario. N4S


I understand your point completely and agree that this option would probably drive their legal department crazy, but it's something that was reported as a possibility in the automotive press. I don't see how they could do it without something specific from the NHTSA and even then we all know that in the event of an accident the lawyers will sue everybody.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ajds said:


> I'm one of those who don't feel great about driving my car at this point and I'm trying to sort out my options.
> Lease ends at the end of December.
> My take is that a loaner (not offered yet, but I'm being a squeaky wheel) would cost them about $50 a day for 6-9 months. So between $9 and $13k.
> 
> ...


The decision is entirely up to the individual customer. I will assume that you have read through most/all of the posts in this thread, especially those that detail the odds of you possibly having a defective airbag, right? If you still feel unsafe and want out of it, BMWFS will waive all of your remaining payments if your lease expires before the end of 2016, so that's you.

After that, it's just a matter negotiating the deal. I think almost all customers have unrealistic expectations but that's just my personal opinion. 

I have no idea which dealerships you may have contacted already but I always like to advise Bimmerfesters to check with one of the Bimmerfest Sponsors, like [email protected] That's David Padgalskas, 503 548-1246. He will give you a straight-up deal and you can either take it or leave it, your choice. At least you will know where you stand and what your options are without all the usual back and forth stuff that most people hate.


----------



## ajds (Apr 1, 2016)

Ninong said:


> The decision is entirely up to the individual customer. I will assume that you have read through most/all of the posts in this thread, especially those that detail the odds of you possibly having a defective airbag, right? If you still feel unsafe and want out of it, BMWFS will waive all of your remaining payments if your lease expires before the end of 2016, so that's you.


I wasn't given the option to just end the lease, I was told the only way to end it was to buy or lease a new one. I'll check on that. Thanks!


----------



## cobrax333 (Mar 9, 2007)

Has anyone had any luck getting anything from BMWFS? My lease is up and I was planning on buying out my car, and no I'm in one of these stuck situations. I had no plans on getting a newer car since I have a 2013 335is and I personally fell the 435 isn't comparable engine and drive wise to my IS which i love. 

If I am forced to give up my car, I feel that BMW should offer me at least an extra incentive on top of a last minute deal I may be forced to make for a car I'm less happy about.

Any else move down this path?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

ajds said:


> I wasn't given the option to just end the lease, I was told the only way to end it was to buy or lease a new one. I'll check on that. Thanks!


The Customer Confidence Lease Termination Benefit Program, *in summary* states that BMW FS may waive up to 9 payments on eligible Lease contracts *provided the returning customer leases or finances a New or Certified Pre-owned BMW through BMW Financial Services.*

~M~


----------



## BJacobsen (Jan 16, 2013)

Cobrax333

Wait until next week and contact BMWFS. I have a 2013 X5 that is effected and I planned on buying when my lease ran out in Feb. They have already extended my lease two months, but it was scheduled to end on April 22, 2016. 

Yesterday I was told that a new program is in place and will be up and running by the 11th of April to allow people with a lease that want to continue for another 12 months to do so. The hope is that within that time a fix will be made available. The program is apparently new and the computers are going to be set up to handle the program by the 11th.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ajds said:


> I wasn't given the option to just end the lease, I was told the only way to end it was to buy or lease a new one. I'll check on that. Thanks!


Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. What I meant was that if your lease ends between now and the end of the year, BMWFS will waive your remaining lease payments IF YOU GET INTO A NEW DEAL WITH BMWFS, EITHER FINANCE OR LEASE. I'm sorry but I guess I assumed everybody knew what they mean when they say they will "waive payments." 

That's what I meant when I said that "after that it's just a matter of negotiating the deal." You MUST negotiate a deal and it MUST go through BMWFS.

If you want to simply turn in the car now, then they will put you in either a rental car or a loaner but you're still making payments on the your current car that's just sitting there in storage. They would much rather see you go for a new car instead of them having to put you in a rental car or loaner. You have to check with the client advisor of your choice to see what the deal would look like.

Personally I would not be concerned at all about driving one of those cars, but that's up to you. Maybe your airbag will turn out to be one of the 0.07% (1 out of !,429) that failed in Takata's testing last May? Although there have been no reported incidents of injuries yet caused by Takata airbag inflator modules in any BMW over the last ten years that they know of.


----------



## ajds (Apr 1, 2016)

Thanks Ninong- I understand what you're saying now. 

That is basically my point- they'll be out thousands providing this loaner, seems like a win win to meet me part way to get me into another car sooner, even if it 'looks' like a bigger discount. 
I'd take the cheaper option if it fit in the garage.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ajds said:


> Thanks Ninong- I understand what you're saying now.
> 
> That is basically my point- they'll be out thousands providing this loaner, seems like a win win to meet me part way to get me into another car sooner, even if it 'looks' like a bigger discount.
> I'd take the cheaper option if it fit in the garage.


Yes, it's definitely costing BMW more to put you in a rental car or a loaner if you decide you want to do that and it will cost them a bunch of money every month on every one of those "trade-ins" that the dealer has to simply store until he can replace the airbag.

However, forget all of that and here's why. You're not negotiating with BMW. You're negotiating with the dealer. The dealer knows what he's getting from BMW in assistance for each and every different possibility on the table; but he can't give you something just because you think it would be cheaper for BMW that way, he can only offer you whatever is possible based on the assistance he's getting. To put it another way, each dealer gets exactly the same assistance and each dealer knows exactly what he can and can not do.

As long as you understand the situation the dealer is in and understand that the dealer can only do so much depending on what he is being offered at the moment, then you're good to go. See what you can do and then decide. 

Don't forget that BMW keeps changing their approach to this problem from one week to the next. What they are offering now (or about to offer in another day or two) is not the same as what they were offering a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

ajds said:


> I'm one of those who don't feel great about driving my car at this point and I'm trying to sort out my options.
> Lease ends at the end of December.
> My take is that a loaner (not offered yet, but I'm being a squeaky wheel) would cost them about $50 a day for 6-9 months. So between $9 and $13k.
> 
> ...


Personally, I think you are off a little on the rental cost estimate. $50 a month assumes they are going to lease you something larger than your standard "fullsize" rental. They are not offering BMWs as rentals currently according to people who have asked in this thread.

You would probably end up in your standard rental type car in the class of an altima, or hyundia sonata or something... those zre not $50 a day, they are $29 a day. Still expensive but quite a bit less than you are budgeting.

Just remember this thing effects something like 14 brands or something, so moving out of your BMW into a rental car that does not have a takata airbag might be hard, and there is ZERO reason to give back your BMW and take a rental to just have the same airbag in it.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> The Customer Confidence Lease Termination Benefit Program, *in summary* states that BMW FS may waive up to 9 payments on eligible Lease contracts *provided the returning customer leases or finances a New or Certified Pre-owned BMW through BMW Financial Services.*
> 
> ~M~


I've never leased, but if you bought the exact car you've been leasing, can you buy it from BMW as a CPO, with the warranty etc.... that comes from that program?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> You're not negotiating with BMW. You're negotiating with the dealer. The dealer knows what he's getting from BMW in assistance for each and every different possibility on the table; but he can't give you something just because you think it would be cheaper for BMW that way, he can only offer you whatever is possible based on the assistance he's getting. To put it another way, each dealer gets exactly the same assistance and each dealer knows exactly what he can and can not do.
> 
> As long as you understand the situation the dealer is in and understand that the dealer can only do so much depending on what he is being offered at the moment, then you're good to go. See what you can do and then decide.


This needs to be posted on every BMW forum on the Internet! Maybe a poster in each dealers' buildings.

My office is across from the GSM's. I've observed a few of his discussions with clients. And Ninong's verbiage is dead on. We know what we can and can't do, and BMW has given us only so much rope, as the saying goes.

I can assure you that no dealer wants to lose a client. We're just doing what we can to make clients happy and hedge our risk/financial exposure, and do both within the sides of the roads given to us.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> I've never leased, but if you bought the exact car you've been leasing, can you buy it from BMW as a CPO, with the warranty etc.... that comes from that program?


If you mean what's called a lease-to-retail (buying your own car off lease) the answer is no. As you are then buying an air bag car, which there is a stop-sale on, etc., etc.

The CPO cars have to be a car that is clear of the stop-sale.

I hope I interpreted your question correctly.

~M~


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> If you mean what's called a lease-to-retail (buying your own car off lease) the answer is no. As you are then buying an air bag car, which there is a stop-sale on, etc., etc.
> 
> The CPO cars have to be a car that is clear of the stop-sale.
> 
> ...


Actually my question is generic, ignoring the stop sale issue currently ongoing. We bought a 535 last year under CPO and really like that we got a "better" warranty than if we'd bought the car new. Sure, we didn't get the new car smell, but we're happy. So question is, in normal times (no stop sale) can you turn the leased car you're driving into a CPO (and get the benefit of the longer warranty) at the point when you buy it?


----------



## pshovest (Dec 12, 2009)

angler said:


> I leased my car with the intent to buy unless I didn't like the car for some reason. My lease expires in a couple of weeks. I extended the lease for 2 months to see what happens as I really wanted to buy the car. The bummer for me is if I have to give it back I am under the extra miles I bought plus I have extra rims and snow tires that I bought for the car, plus I paid for extra fluid changes along the way and I put a BMW performance exhaust on knowing that I was going to buy the car. I wonder if I can get reimbursed or credit to buying a 2 series vert now? Not happy, but I am not blaming BMW for the situation just hope they take each situation on an individual basis.


I'm a latecomer to this thread, but I haven't seen this angle addressed yet. I'm only on page 5 of 27....

I am not a lawyer, but the lease you signed is an enforceable contract. That contract defines the conditions under which you are entitled to buy back the car. You agreed to and expect these terms to be fulfilled. I don't think the lease holder can unilaterally change or stop the terms of the buy back without offering you compensation. It will be up to you, and your lawyer to define that compensation.

Reselling these cars is really no different than allowing the recalled vehicles to remain on the road. I bet they will come up with a waiver the new buyer must sign to allow these vehicles to be resold.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Actually my question is generic, ignoring the stop sale issue currently ongoing. We bought a 535 last year under CPO and really like that we got a "better" warranty than if we'd bought the car new. Sure, we didn't get the new car smell, but we're happy. So question is, in normal times (no stop sale) can you turn the leased car you're driving into a CPO (and get the benefit of the longer warranty) at the point when you buy it?


Simple answer is yes. PM me if you'd like more details.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

pshovest said:


> I'm a latecomer to this thread, but I haven't seen this angle addressed yet. I'm only on page 5 of 27....
> 
> I am not a lawyer, but the lease you signed is an enforceable contract. That contract defines the conditions under which you are entitled to buy back the car. You agreed to and expect these terms to be fulfilled. I don't think the lease holder can unilaterally change or stop the terms of the buy back without offering you compensation. It will be up to you, and your lawyer to define that compensation.
> 
> Reselling these cars is really no different than allowing the recalled vehicles to remain on the road. I bet they will come up with a waiver the new buyer must sign to allow these vehicles to be resold.


You need to keep reading the entire thread. That point has been adressed several times through the thread.

The TL ; DR version is, The Manufacturer needs to obey the Government agency that has recalled these vehicles, and that supercedes your ability to purchase the car off lease. They cant legally sell it to you until the airbag is fixed because they are a new car dealer. Used car dealers do not have this stipulation, but if you are under a lease with BMW FS, they DO have this stipulation, so cant sell it till its fixed... period.

For more detail, I suggest continuing to go through the thread pages.


----------



## UPSROD (Aug 16, 2015)

There are still a boat load of cars listed on Cars.com for sale from BMW dealers?????


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

UPSROD said:


> There are still a boat load of cars listed on Cars.com for sale from BMW dealers?????


Run their VIN through the NHTSA's website: http://www.safercar.gov/checkforrecalls

If the VIN is on that list and the car hasn't been "fixed" yet, it's not for sale. Then call up Cars.com and tell them that just because the dealer has it in his possession doesn't mean it's for sale.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Actually my question is generic, ignoring the stop sale issue currently ongoing. We bought a 535 last year under CPO and really like that we got a "better" warranty than if we'd bought the car new. Sure, we didn't get the new car smell, but we're happy. So question is, in normal times (no stop sale) can you turn the leased car you're driving into a CPO (and get the benefit of the longer warranty) at the point when you buy it?


How did you get a better warranty? The BMW new car warranty is much better than the CPO warranty.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

adgrant said:


> How did you get a better warranty? The BMW new car warranty is much better than the CPO warranty.


I guess it's a matter of perspective. I'm looking at it from the perspective of total miles covered for a car, not years I as the owner enjoy the coverage. In that vein, the new car warranty is 4 years and 50,000 miles. If you buy a CPO, you get that warrant, plus they extend it 2 years and up to 50,000 more miles (max of 100,000 miles). Given early problems would be covered (fixed) way by the original warranty, the extended duration/miles of the CPO warranty starts to pick up things that might emerge later in the car's life.

As so many folks out here proclaim they wouldn't own an unwarrantied BMW, having those extra miles of coverage seems like a good thing. As I said, it's all perspective based, but when I buy cars, I always buy used, and have a heavy preference for very low mileage cars, which results in my getting (under a CPO) much more mileage covered.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> I guess it's a matter of perspective. I'm looking at it from the perspective of total miles covered for a car, not years I as the owner enjoy the coverage. In that vein, the new car warranty is 4 years and 50,000 miles. If you buy a CPO, you get that warrant, plus they extend it 2 years and up to 50,000 more miles (max of 100,000 miles). Given early problems would be covered (fixed) way by the original warranty, the extended duration/miles of the CPO warranty starts to pick up things that might emerge later in the car's life.
> 
> As so many folks out here proclaim they wouldn't own an unwarrantied BMW, having those extra miles of coverage seems like a good thing. As I said, it's all perspective based, but when I buy cars, I always buy used, and have a heavy preference for very low mileage cars, which results in my getting (under a CPO) much more mileage covered.


If you get a new BMW, you also have the option of extending the new car warranty for another 2 years and 50,000 miles. Or you can extend for another 3 years and 27,000 miles (which is what I did).


----------



## philting (Oct 18, 2006)

Ninong said:


> It's a package deal: $150/month lower monthly payment plus a $2,500 "reenlistment bonus" to re-up for another 12 months. Sort of like a reenlistment bonus in the Army. They're trying to sweeten the pot to entice customers whose leases are expiring to keep their cars for another 12 months. I think you're allowed to exercise your previously available options once the parts come in and your airbag can be fixed... in other words, any time during those 12 months if the airbag gets replaced, you can get out of that 12-mo extension.


Can you use the voucher to CPO your current car with the dealer at the end of the lease extension? Or Can we use this as cash to buy or lease a new car? Thx


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

philting said:


> Can you use the voucher to CPO your current car with the dealer at the end of the lease extension? Or Can we use this as cash to buy or lease a new car? Thx


There is no specific exclusion for that. I would bet that BMW will fine-tune the policy by the end of the year, or once the first affected vehicles complete repairs.

Remember, if your BMW hasn't had the recall completed by the end of the re-lease period, you still won't be able to buy it.

~M~


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> There is no specific exclusion for that. I would bet that BMW will fine-tune the policy by the end of the year, or once the first affected vehicles complete repairs.
> 
> Remember, if your BMW hasn't had the recall completed by the end of the re-lease period, you still won't be able to buy it.
> 
> ~M~


Is this re-enlistment bonus stackable with other incentives at the end of 12 months?

The $150/month reduction looks pretty good. Just say the monthly was $450/month, and now the extended 12 months cost $300/month. Is the whole $300 x 12 = $3600 apply to RV reduction for lease buyout?


----------



## philting (Oct 18, 2006)

namelessman said:


> Is this re-enlistment bonus stackable with other incentives at the end of 12 months?
> 
> The $150/month reduction looks pretty good. Just say the monthly was $450/month, and now the extended 12 months cost $300/month. Is the whole $300 x 12 = $3600 apply to RV reduction for lease buyout?


I called BMWFS and they don't have any info for the RV or MF of the extended lease.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Is this re-enlistment bonus stackable with other incentives at the end of 12 months?
> 
> The $150/month reduction looks pretty good. Just say the monthly was $450/month, and now the extended 12 months cost $300/month. Is the whole $300 x 12 = $3600 apply to RV reduction for lease buyout?


Not specified yet.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

philting said:


> I called BMWFS and they don't have any info for the RV or MF of the extended lease.


I read that the complete details will be in the FS system by the 11th. Which makes it the now infamous Friday update.

~M~


----------



## philting (Oct 18, 2006)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I read that the complete details will be in the FS system by the 11th. Which makes it the now infamous Friday update.
> 
> ~M~


Yes you 're right. I was given the April 11th date as well. Thx


----------



## FLBimmer (May 24, 2008)

What's the current Tier 1 MF for the majority of models? Hopefully I can keep my current MF on the extended lease. I don't recall exactly what is was but I remember it being dirt cheap.


----------



## philting (Oct 18, 2006)

I wonder if they'll take into account the MSD's when they release the new MF. Would you get your MSD's back if the new MF is standard?


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Ninong said:


> That whole situation is not working out the way one should expect.


So my wife got involved and so far the issues have been resolved. She was given a brand new 340i and no charges were rendered for the unsafe tire. She can be very persuasive when she needs to be, lol. Hopefully this is the last of our issues.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> So my wife got involved and so far the issues have been resolved. She was given a brand new 340i and no charges were rendered for the unsafe tire. She can be very persuasive when she needs to be, lol. Hopefully this is the last of our issues.


You pulled out the big guns!:thumbup:


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I read that the complete details will be in the FS system by the 11th. Which makes it the now infamous Friday update.
> 
> ~M~


If they are reducing your payment by 150 off your current payment isn't the MF irrelevant?


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I read that the complete details will be in the FS system by the 11th. Which makes it the now infamous Friday update.
> 
> ~M~


Michael , any word on us that purchased their car? Incentives of any kind? X1 in Florida, think I'm one of the first to get a new canister?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> So my wife got involved and so far the issues have been resolved. She was given a brand new 340i and no charges were rendered for the unsafe tire. She can be very persuasive when she needs to be, lol. Hopefully this is the last of our issues.


:beerchug:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> If they are reducing your payment by 150 off your current payment isn't the MF irrelevant?


Your understanding is the same as mine but we are basing that on their first response when I believe they were asking people to accept a 60-day extension. Now it's a 12-mo extension with a $150 monthly payment reduction plus a $2,500 bonus in there somewhere. Now I believe they're saying that they're still working out the detail and they need a few more days for their legal eagles to review things, I guess. :dunno:


----------



## Ayrton (Mar 31, 2005)

Ninong said:


> Your understanding is the same as mine but we are basing that on their first response when I believe they were asking people to accept a 60-day extension. Now it's a 12-mo extension with a $150 monthly payment reduction plus a $2,500 bonus in there somewhere. Now I believe they're saying that they're still working out the detail and they need a few more days for their legal eagles to review things, I guess. :dunno:


I spoke with BMW FS this afternoon. My lease had already been extended 60 days when they told me I could not buy my car. Today they explained the 12 month extension with the $150 price reduction, HOWEVER no mention of the $2500 bonus... They did tell me they were still finalizing the details. I was told if the car was fixed before the 12th month I could buy at that point (get out of the lease with future payments waived), I can also get out of the lease with future payments waived any time if I decided to get another BMW. Open question is: what would be the residual at the end of the lease extension? Also, the 12 months extension (on top of the 2 months I already did) means the last 2 months I would be out of warranty and service plan, which is not desirable. So I guess I'll take the extension and wait for a month with good incentives to get a new BMW.


----------



## philting (Oct 18, 2006)

Ayrton said:


> I spoke with BMW FS this afternoon. My lease had already been extended 60 days when they told me I could not buy my car. Today they explained the 12 month extension with the $150 price reduction, HOWEVER no mention of the $2500 bonus... They did tell me they were still finalizing the details. I was told if the car was fixed before the 12th month I could buy at that point (get out of the lease with future payments waived), I can also get out of the lease with future payments waived any time if I decided to get another BMW. Open question is: what would be the residual at the end of the lease extension? Also, the 12 months extension (on top of the 2 months I already did) means the last 2 months I would be out of warranty and service plan, which is not desirable. So I guess I'll take the extension and wait for a month with good incentives to get a new BMW.


May I ask if you discussed the new RV with them? and if they told you that the extra payments would 100% apply towards the RV. Thx


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Yes.
> 
> ~M~


Thanks again, Michael.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Ninong said:


> It's a package deal: $150/month lower monthly payment plus a $2,500 "reenlistment bonus" to re-up for another 12 months. Sort of like a reenlistment bonus in the Army. They're trying to sweeten the pot to entice customers whose leases are expiring to keep their cars for another 12 months. I think you're allowed to exercise your previously available options once the parts come in and your airbag can be fixed... in other words, any time during those 12 months if the airbag gets replaced, you can get out of that 12-mo extension.


Thanks Ninong.


----------



## Ayrton (Mar 31, 2005)

philting said:


> May I ask if you discussed the new RV with them? and if they told you that the extra payments would 100% apply towards the RV. Thx


Nope, did not cover that. RV is still an open question as indicated.


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

It looks like BMW dealerships are running out of loaner vehicles. BMW is expanding their rental car program to compensate.

*Enhanced Car Rental Procedure*
Due to the large number of BMW vehicles and non-BMW vehicles alike that are affected by the airbag recall, replacement airbag modules are in short supply. Since the replacement parts are not yet available to repair Affected Vehicles, we understand that some of the affected customers may express their concern about continuing to drive their current affected BMW vehicle.

Customer with an affected vehicle should be placed in a rental vehicle only if all the following conditions apply:

The part is not available to perform the Recall repair
Customer does not to want to drive his or her Affected Vehicle and request alternate transportation
The other alternate transportation options are not available

If alternate transportation is requested and the customer qualifies, provide them with a vehicle through a preferred third-party rental car providers (Hertz or Enterprise). BMW will cover the cost for the following:

A BMW rental vehicle, up to $64.00 a day; plus
Taxes; plus the cost per day for
CDW (Collision Damage Waiver) and/or LDW (Loss Damage Waiver) protection when the rental car agreement "signee" accepts either one or both of these optional coverage choices.

Alternatively BMW will cover the cost for: 

A Non-BMW rental vehicle, up to $44.00 a day; plus
Taxes; plus the cost per day for
CDW (Collision Damage Waiver) and/or LDW (Loss Damage Waiver) protection when the rental car agreement "signee" accepts either one or both of these optional coverage choices.

Additional insurance coverage (examples below) are at the customers expense.

SLI (supplemental liability insurance); and/or
PAI (personal accident insurance); and/or
PEC (personal effects coverage).


----------



## ajds (Apr 1, 2016)

Wow- Given that the supply might not be in place until February 2017 for a group 2 car (from Michael's post), a BMW loaner (my current situation) will cost them $19,200! [~300 days at $64/day]

What a mess.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

*Enhanced Car Rental Procedure*

Did this come through DCS? I didn't see this yet.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Maybe as many as one-fourth have been repaired already because the recalls started in 2014.


NHTSA Data, specific to BMW:

6,716 (1.8%) Driver-side Air Bags Repaired
186,584 (32.8%) Passenger-side Air Bags Repaired
193,300 (20.7%) Total Air Bags Repaired

http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takata-completion-rates.html


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tim330i said:


> It looks like BMW dealerships are running out of loaner vehicles.


No kidding! :rofl:

Wow, who would have predicted that? :angel:

Do you mean to tell me that BMW is unable to provide each of their 340 dealers in the U.S. with 3,000 - 4,000 BMW loaners to give out and storage space to put those 3,000 - 4,000 BMW turn-ins? By the way, the dealer is required to keep all of those BMW turn-ins until he fixes them and returns them to their owners/lessees. He is not allowed to stick them on BMW. If you don't have space to put them, that's your problem as the dealer.

Oh, please, Mr. BMW dealer, may I have a Honda Civic to drive instead of my 2014 BMW X5? I would feel so much safer in a Honda Civic. :tsk:


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Ninong said:


> All of the deaths have been in Hondas except for the driver of the 2006 Ford Ranger pickup that ran into a cow on Dec. 22, 2015 in South Carolina.


Am I the only one who sees the irony here? You're expected to be able to run into A COW, at speed, in a TEN MODEL YEAR OLD CAR, and live.

And if you don't, it's not YOUR fault for being stupid enough (or likkered up enough) to drive into a COW, it's the automakers fault.

I think we've stumbled on the root cause for the dumbing down of America. We are no longer allowing Darwin to filter the weeds and algae out of our gene pool.

I finally understand how we got to this point, a Presidential election with zero qualified candidates. The NHTSA and the various consumer protection agencies have succeeded in allowing too many morons to live and breed.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

tim330i said:


> It looks like BMW dealerships are running out of loaner vehicles. BMW is expanding their rental car program to compensate.
> 
> *Enhanced Car Rental Procedure*
> Due to the large number of BMW vehicles and non-BMW vehicles alike that are affected by the airbag recall, replacement airbag modules are in short supply. Since the replacement parts are not yet available to repair Affected Vehicles, we understand that some of the affected customers may express their concern about continuing to drive their current affected BMW vehicle.
> ...


Nice, as I read that, it looks like they are offering to pay for the optional insurance. You just have to accept it.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ajds said:


> Wow- Given that the supply might not be in place until February 2017 for a group 2 car (from Michael's post), a BMW loaner (my current situation) will cost them $19,200! [~300 days at $64/day]
> 
> What a mess.


Which is one of the main reasons their stock price as been falling like a brick in a swimming pool lately.

It is an impossible situation. My own personal opinion, is that proper education of the public at the time of this recall would have been better than their present strategy of offering a replacement driver to anyone who requests one. Did they all sleep through 4th grade arithmetic? We can then extend that same logic to the people who received a recall letter and think it's important for them to stop driving their BMW because of that recall notice. Did they all sleep through the 4th grade, too? Have then looked at the numbers?

The law requires that they take all appropriate measures but it does not spell out in detail what those measures must include. Mainly it means that they should recall the cars and repair them as quickly as possible but I doubt the people who wrote the regulations anticipated a situation involving tens of millions of cars all at once without replacement parts being available to fix them for months, possibly more than a year.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Nice, as I read that, it looks like they are offering to pay for the optional insurance. You just have to accept it.


Why is it nice? Would you rather drive your X5 or a Honda Civic from Enterprise?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Boomer1976 said:


> I wish they just had a buy back program as I own my 2012 X5.


They don't have a buy back program but they offer the dealer extra trunk money to take your car in trade on a new or CPO BMW out of dealer inventory (no EDs). Late model loaners (2015, 2016) come with an offer of 0.0% (zero) APR financing up to 72 months for anyone interested in that option.

You should only consider that if it makes economic sense and if you really feel unsafe driving your 2012 BMW X5 after being fully informed of the numbers used by the NHTSA to add it to their list.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

quackbury said:


> Am I the only one who sees the irony here? You're expected to be able to run into A COW, at speed, in a TEN MODEL YEAR OLD CAR, and live.


Unfortunately for BMW and Mercedes, it was that last accident that resulted in the NHTSA adding 840,000 BMWs and more than 700,000 MB models to their recall list. So all of the BMW drivers who received this latest recall letter can blame it on a cow in South Carolina. 

The real irony, in my mind, is the idea that anyone driving a BMW would rather turn it in and drive a Honda Civic in the meantime. Especially considering the fact that BMW has not received a single report of any injuries caused by a Takata airbag in the past 10 years, and that goes for Mercedes, too. But both Honda and Toyota are well represented on the injury list because they used a different design of Takata inflator modules. Let's see, maybe Enterprise will offer you a nice BMW to drive? Not.



P.S. -- It was a Ford Ranger pickup. I guess he forgot to order it with the cow-catcher bumper option? If it had been a Lexus, they come with a built-in snow plow in the front. http://www.lexus.com/models/RX


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Why is it nice? Would you rather drive your X5 or a Honda Civic from Enterprise?


My X5, but only if I knew 100% the airbag wouldnt cause additional injury. I am not risking anyting that is easily avoidable after already dealing with the tragedy of auto accidents.

I think its nice that they are offering to buck up to pay for the extra insurance, since rental car companies are known to screw the customer on turn in if they didnt buy it. Considering BMW didnt have to provide alternative transportation at all, I think its good on them that they are trying to bend as much as possible for the customer who is not willing to take the risk and are willing to pay for it.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> My X5, but only if I knew 100% the airbag wouldnt cause additional injury. I am not risking anyting that is easily avoidable after already dealing with the tragedy of auto accidents.
> 
> I think its nice that they are offering to buck up to pay for the extra insurance, since rental car companies are known to screw the customer on turn in if they didnt buy it. Considering BMW didnt have to provide alternative transportation at all, I think its good on them that they are trying to bend as much as possible for the customer who is not willing to take the risk and are willing to pay for it.


Unfortunately nothing in life is 100% guaranteed and certainly no motor vehicle is 100% guaranteed to not be the cause of injury. In the case of the BMWs on the NHTSA's recall list, the only testing numbers available would indicate that you could expect only a 99.93% guarantee that your Takata airbag inflator module wouldn't fail and shoot shrapnel into the passenger compartment. Not 100%, only 99.93%. Sorry.

On the other hand, more than 4,000 people are killed crossing the street in the U.S. every year. In fact, 33 people die annually due to accidents caused by falling out of bed while asleep and hitting their head. About three dozen die every year due to being struck by lightning. More than 70 people in the state of California became instant millionaires back on that one day when the Power Ball hit $1.6 billion and three lucky people split that jackpot. Well, on that same day, 70 people in that one state alone became instant millionaires.

So, those are your odds. Unfortunately, 99.93% was the best I could come up with based on the available data.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Yes, I know nothing is 100% but I am not willing to risk the lives of my family over something I could have easily avoided. Besides, my loaner IS a BMW and although much smaller I am alright with driving it for a while. I would have rather made a deal and left the lot in my own new BMW but we didnt even get passed their offer on my recalled X5 so I left in their vehicle.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Just got off the phone with the Fremont CA dealership. The lady on the phone first said "we don't have the parts available, but I can call you when they'll be in" I asked about the loaner option, she had no idea and went to ask. She then says "unfortunately we have to put you in a loaner" and took my name and number down for the service manager or service director to call me back with more information. She said neither of them are in, and when i pressed for more clarification she said "i'm not sure what days they come in" 
Waiting...

I'm not sure what this "unfortunately" means. Maybe something to the tune of "we don't have BMW loaners" but she was pretty clueless to begin with so nothing she said inspired any sort of confidence.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Since yours is a 09 you might get a rental, but make sure you run the VIN to make sure thats not recalled. Are you talking to the same dealership that you bought the car from? Since you got it only two months ago they may give you a BMW. Who know? Keep us updated with what you find out.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Since yours is a 09 you might get a rental, but make sure you run the VIN to make sure thats not recalled. Are you talking to the same dealership that you bought the car from? Since you got it only two months ago they may give you a BMW. Who know? Keep us updated with what you find out.


I haven't received the letter yet, probably due to the purchase being so new. I am talking to the same dealership and my car does have the recall. I've checked the VIN 3-4 times already. 
I will wait until tomorrow to receive a call back. If I don't, I will call again and see what I can find out. But I find the lack of information a little disturbing.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> I haven't received the letter yet, probably due to the purchase being so new. I am talking to the same dealership and my car does have the recall. I've checked the VIN 3-4 times already.
> I will wait until tomorrow to receive a call back. If I don't, I will call again and see what I can find out. But I find the lack of information a little disturbing.


I meant if they give you an enterprise rental, run that vin to make sure you're not in the same boat with a lesser car.


----------



## philting (Oct 18, 2006)

tim330i said:


> It looks like BMW dealerships are running out of loaner vehicles. BMW is expanding their rental car program to compensate.
> 
> *Enhanced Car Rental Procedure*
> Due to the large number of BMW vehicles and non-BMW vehicles alike that are affected by the airbag recall, replacement airbag modules are in short supply. Since the replacement parts are not yet available to repair Affected Vehicles, we understand that some of the affected customers may express their concern about continuing to drive their current affected BMW vehicle.
> ...


Do you get the loaner from the dealer you purchased your car from or where you have it serviced? Thx


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

philting said:


> Do you get the loaner from the dealer you purchased your car from or where you have it serviced? Thx


I got mine from the dealer that did all warranty service.


----------



## philting (Oct 18, 2006)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> I got mine from the dealer that did all warranty service.


Got it thanks!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Yes, I know nothing is 100% but I am not willing to risk the lives of my family over something I could have easily avoided. Besides, my loaner IS a BMW and although much smaller I am alright with driving it for a while. I would have rather made a deal and left the lot in my own new BMW but we didnt even get passed their offer on my recalled X5 so I left in their vehicle.


That's where I knew this was going to fall apart. I'm talking about all the special assistance that BMW is offering the dealers to help them help their customers get out of their recalled BMWs and into a new or late model CPO out of dealer inventory and that's the value of the trade-in. What is the value of a car that cannot be sold? It can only be placed in storage somewhere until replacement parts become available to fix it. Who knows? The appraisal value of a trade-in always depends on the person who is appraising it. That has always been the case and that's why you can get different appraisals on the same car from different appraisers.

Remember than under U.S. anti-price fixing laws, the selling price of a car is entirely up to the independent franchised dealer. Dealer pricing may vary from one dealer to another and especially from one part of the country to another. Your particular metropolitan area is not known for competitive pricing that comes anywhere close to the extremely competitive pricing often available at some of the larger dealerships in the L.A. area.

Here's a question? Do you know if all of the other components that make up your car are more than 99.93% safe? What about your front-end suspension components? Are they all more than 99.93% safe? What about your tires? Are they more than 99.93% guaranteed to not have a blowout? Is your steering guaranteed more than 99.93% to not fail?

Do you want to know how many of these same cars are on Transport Canada's recall list? Zero! The correct answer is: zero. That's because, according to Transport Canada, they have not received any reports of injuries caused by the failure of a Takata airbag inflator module on the road in Canada. Remember, the failures, according to Takata, are caused by moisture being absorbed over a period of several years by the stable ammonium nitrate propellant in the inflator module. Most of the 30,000 plus airbags tested by Takata were removed from cars in Florida, Puerto Rico and Guam because they had the highest priority on the NHTSA recall list.

So your chances of being safe are 99.93% if you live in a tropical region and your car is at least 8 or more years old. Your chances of being safe are much better if you live in a more northerly region, such as Canada. If you live on the Gulf Coast of the U.S., your chances are about the same as the 99.93% because of the hot humid summers down there.

BMW of Canada has issued recall notices for the same BMW models that were added to the NHTSA's list prior to this last February 2016 recall. The last time I checked -- about a week or so ago -- they had not yet added the models that the NHTSA added in February (those 840,000 in the U.S.).

BMW of Canada has not received a single report of injury cause by the failure of a Takata airbag inflator module. BMW of North America has not received a single report of injury caused by the failure of a Takata airbag inflator module. BMW Group in Munich has not received a single report of injury in any of their cars due to the failure of a Takata airbag inflator module. Neither has Mercedes, although I'm not positive about Daimler vans (sold under various brand named) because they used a different Takata module design. Some Daimler vans are sold by GM under other names. VW says they have not received a single report of injury but, as we all know by now, they lie a lot. So does Toyota. Remember that? Remember their humongous fine for that?

Anyway, those are the only numbers that were used by the NHTSA to guide their decisions. According to testimony by Takata before the NHTSA (which has evolved over the past couple of years to match what came out from other sources), they could not guarantee the NHTSA whether some of the "bad" modules might be in certain models so the NHTSA added those models to the list just to be on the safe side.

Takata has repeatedly changed their testimony. It has evolved. The reasons for the failures have changed. The various explanations so far are: improper storage of the ammonium nitrate at certain manufacturing plants, improper supervision of workers at certain plants, sloppy workmanship by a few individuals at a certain plant, only at the very end did they admit that some designs were not as good as the new and improved designs they came up with to replace them and all of their stable ammonium nitrate might degrade over a number of years if exposed to hot humid climates, which is why they finally added a desiccant to the stable ammonium nitrate propellant.

Takata's final defense was to blame the auto manufacturers for not specifying in their order requirements that the modules must be tested for a period of 15-20 years in hot humid climates.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> I meant if they give you an enterprise rental, run that vin to make sure you're not in the same boat with a lesser car.


Yes, that is very good warning to everybody because you never know if one slipped through. Remember that used car dealers and rental car companies are not subject to the law. Not at all. That's why one of the fatalities happened in a rented Honda Civic. The rental car company did not check to see that it had been on the recall list for six years when they rented it out.

Don't forget that CarMax sells cars with outstanding, unfixed, safety recalls all the time. It's perfectly legal for them to do that. They do not tell you in advance that their comprehensive inspection does not include checking to see if the car has an unrepaired safety defect because that might delay their ability to sell it if the parts are not available to fix it.

What CarMax does is advise the customer on delivery that he should register his car with the manufacturer so that he will be informed of any recalls. CarMax has several open lawsuits filed against them for that but I don't know what the results have been on any of those or even if any of them have gone to court yet. They are not legally required to inform the buyer about open recalls that have not been fixed because they are a used car dealer and not a new car dealer. The law only applies to manufacturers and their franchised dealers.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> I haven't received the letter yet, probably due to the purchase being so new. I am talking to the same dealership and my car does have the recall. I've checked the VIN 3-4 times already.
> I will wait until tomorrow to receive a call back. If I don't, I will call again and see what I can find out. But I find the lack of information a little disturbing.


I understand your frustration with not being able to contact the GM of that dealership but it could be that she is absolutely swamped with calls from other customers who received those recall letters, the last of which I believe were just mailed a few days ago.

In addition, dealers have been awaiting an update from BMW that they were told to expect by April 11. I do not believe the bulletin posted by Tim is the latest word on this. I expect they will receive another update Monday, April 11. 

P.S. -- Maybe it's just me but I don't understand why any of the drivers of any of these recalled BMWs would feel safer driving a rental. That baffles me.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Yes, I know nothing is 100% but I am not willing to risk the lives of my family over something I could have easily avoided. Besides, my loaner IS a BMW and although much smaller I am alright with driving it for a while. I would have rather made a deal and left the lot in my own new BMW but we didnt even get passed their offer on my recalled X5 so I left in their vehicle.


I'm sorry. I knew that was going to happen. In spite of the financial assistance BMW is offering the dealers to help them entice you to trade in your current recalled vehicle, it's still not enough to overcome the dealer's valuation of your trade-in. Honestly, that's a problem. What is it really worth until after it is fixed and can be sold. When will he get the parts? Will it be within the next three months or will it take 18 months?

I don't know what to tell you if you really want to trade it in other than to do what you would always do when shopping for a new car and that is "shop around." That's going to be very tough if you're trying to deal with other BMW dealers in the same situation.

You got a BMW loaner because of the year of your car. Someone with a car that is five or six years old won't be so lucky. The best they will be able to get is an Enterprise rental car that might even be something like a Honda Civic. Sooner or later, probably sooner, the dealers will have no more BMW loaner cars to lend out because they can't put every single new car in inventory into loaner service. Then what?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong keeps postings these numbers like a mantram (are you getting paid by BMW?) when he knows they are false. Takata also lied on those tests and the failure rates where much higher than that. That is why the 14 auto manufacturers hired their own independent rocket company to perform ballistic tests on these inflators.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> I understand your frustration with not being able to contact the GM of that dealership but it could be that she is absolutely swamped with calls from other customers who received those recall letters, the last of which I believe were just mailed a few days ago.
> 
> In addition, dealers have been awaiting an update from BMW that they were told to expect by April 11. I do not believe the bulletin posted by Tim is the latest word on this. I expect they will receive another update Monday, April 11.
> 
> P.S. -- Maybe it's just me but I don't understand why any of the drivers of any of these recalled BMWs would feel safer driving a rental. That baffles me.


Mrs. L-F-C was involved in an accident a few years ago that nearly took her eye. She was in a sailboat with a few friends when a sudden gust of wind took the sail and the boom hit her millimeters below her right eye. At the time she was sitting down far from the boom when it happened, as she and others had been instructed. This was one of those freak accidents that no one expects to happen. Since then she has been extremely careful over anything that could be even remotely dangerous. She even elected to do PRK instead of LASIC because of the possibility that the LASIC flap might come open at some point due to a hard blow to the eye area or even head. 
It's not about feeling "safer" in a rental, but moreso in the thought that in the event of a crash you have the intended protection rather than go into it with a disadvantage. And of course it all depends on the rental. This is why we're doing it.

Though, there may be others who see it differently. If their car sits on a lot and doesn't accumulate mileage, its resale value would not go down as much. An Uber or Lyft driver would be happy to drive a loaner instead of the car they purchased. I'm sure there are a few of those out there.

As for the loaner type, not all will be Civics. That all matters based on how good the individual is with the "negotiations" and rental availability. Since Tim didn't post the source of his information i'm taking it with a grain of salt but there would be a max daily allowance and that can vary based on where and what's available, not to mention what rate BMW and Enterprise are negotiating.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> I meant if they give you an enterprise rental, run that vin to make sure you're not in the same boat with a lesser car.


yes, good point.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Ninong keeps postings these numbers like a mantram (are you getting paid by BMW?) when he knows they are false. Takata also lied on those tests and the failure rates where much higher than that. That is why the 14 auto manufacturers hired their own independent rocket company to perform ballistic tests on these inflators.


Those are the test results the NHTSA used to make their decisions, which is what I have said. I have not seen any of the test results you are referring to, so if you could please provide a link to those results it would be very informative to this discussion.

Thanks.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Ninong said:


> I'm sorry. I knew that was going to happen. In spite of the financial assistance BMW is offering the dealers to help them entice you to trade in your current recalled vehicle, it's still not enough to overcome the dealer's valuation of your trade-in. Honestly, that's a problem. What is it really worth until after it is fixed and can be sold. When will he get the parts? Will it be within the next three months or will it take 18 months?
> 
> I don't know what to tell you if you really want to trade it in other than to do what you would always do when shopping for a new car and that is "shop around." That's going to be very tough if you're trying to deal with other BMW dealers in the same situation.
> 
> You got a BMW loaner because of the year of your car. Someone with a car that is five or six years old won't be so lucky. The best they will be able to get is an Enterprise rental car that might even be something like a Honda Civic. Sooner or later, probably sooner, the dealers will have no more BMW loaner cars to lend out because they can't put every single new car in inventory into loaner service. Then what?


I understand that they cant make a determination in the future value of the car, but that is why BMW is offering the deprecation packages and such. I don't see why I should take the hit on value for something they are being reimbursed for.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> Those are the test results the NHTSA used to make their decisions, which is what I have said. I have not seen any of the test results you are referring to, so if you could please provide a link to those results it would be very informative to this discussion.
> 
> Thanks.


Here stop defending BMW and Takata, the problem is worst than the percentages being reported by NHTSA that were provided by none the less TAKATA who manipulated those tests too.

http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2015/02/automakers-hire-rocket-firm-probe-air-bag-problems]Automakers Hire Rocket Firm To Probe Air Bag Problems

http://www.legalreader.com/takata-lied-and-people-died/

Read the comment at the end of this article there are 100's of death that weren't linked to these inflators but looking at the injuries they will be.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> As for the loaner type, not all will be Civics.


My mention of Honda Civic was deliberately sarcastic because I know Enterprise has put some BMW customers in Honda Civics and that car is the one with the most serious injuries and fatalities, by far. Sorry. :angel:



> That all matters based on how good the individual is with the "negotiations" and rental availability.


Not quite. The information Tim posted was part of the most recent bulletin at that the dealers received a few weeks back. It includes the maximum daily rental charge that BMW will pay. They will not pay any more than that amount. In order for the dealer to be reimbursed for the rental charges he would fill out a very complete RO (repair order) that includes your VIN number as well as the expected date, if known, that the replacement parts will come in. It must include the starting date and the exact daily rate charged by the rental car company and it cannot exceed the maximum allowed or the dealer will be stuck paying that himself because he will not be reimbursed more than the maximum. If necessary, the dealer must submit a new RO every month if you are still in a rental car. The part about Hertz was for a BMW rental -- if available -- and that would apply if the dealer was unable to provide a BMW loaner to a customer with a MY 2012 or newer BMW. However, if Hertz didn't have one, then the lower rates would be the maximum reimbursement allowed.

Whether you get a recent model year BMW loaner depends on the year of the BMW you are turning in. If your car is six or seven years old the best they have offered to pay for is an Enterprise rental car. If they change their minds on that it will be in the next bulletin, whenever it comes out. Maybe next Monday, maybe not?

Currently BMW will pay the dealers a monthly rate to assist them in providing late model BMW loaners (2015 & 2016) to customers currently driving MY 2012 and newer BMWs. BMW will not pay for loaners for MY 2011 and older. They will reimburse the dealer a maximum amount, as outlined in the BMW SB posted by Tim.



> Since Tim didn't post the source of his information i'm taking it with a grain of salt but there would be a max daily allowance and that can vary based on where and what's available, not to mention what rate BMW and Enterprise are negotiating.


The source of the information was a BMW of North America Service Bulletin that came out a few weeks ago and has been updated a couple of times since. It is possible that something newer may come out next Monday, April 11, according to a comment posted by Michael of BMW Seattle. He should know because he works as a European Delivery Manager at a BMW dealership and he has access to all current information as quickly as it comes out.

Some of us are retired but we still have contacts who are working and we just happen to know from years and years of experience how BMW operates. They really and truly would like to keep all of their customers happy and completely satisfied but this is an impossible situation that they are facing right now. Obviously they would much prefer if everybody decided this would be a good time to trade in their recalled BMW on a new one or late model CPO BMW (but not European Delivery). They are offering the dealer financial assistance to make that happen but it may not be enough to entice some dealers stick their necks out too far on trade-ins that they cannot sell until after they are fixed with parts that haven't been made yet.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Here stop defending BMW and Takata, the problem is worst than the percentages being reported by NHTSA that were provided by none the less TAKATA who manipulated those tests too.
> 
> http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2015/02/automakers-hire-rocket-firm-probe-air-bag-problems]Automakers Hire Rocket Firm To Probe Air Bag Problems


That one is from February 2015 and contains absolutely nothing new or revealing, only that manufacturers were fed up with Takata's evolving testimony before the NHTSA, which I have already described in detail. If anybody thinks I was defending Takata, they are very seriously mistaken. I have been blaming Takata, Honda and Toyota repeatedly.



> http://www.legalreader.com/takata-lied-and-people-died/


You have to be kidding me, right? I have referenced this over and over again. I have even named the senators who called for the NHTSA to conduct a new investigation because they want the NHTSA to recall another 70-90 million cars in the U.S. with Takata airbags.

*They are not talking about the testing of the 30,000 airbags in May 2015 removed for recalled cars mostly in hot humid climates.* I have already referenced all of the shenanigans Takata pulled over the years when they destroyed certain tests that were conducted off-premises because they didn't like the results (testimony from a former 
Takata engineer to the NHTSA). I have already posted that Honda and Toyota both testified that Takata provided them with "misleading and manipulated test results" (exact wording of their testimony before the NHTSA).



> Read the comment at the end of this article there are 100's of death that weren't linked to these inflators but looking at the injuries they will be.


Once again, you can't be serious? Really? I have already read that. They're talking about the false and misleading testimony Takata gave before the NHTSA. All of that is based on the fact that Takata manipulated their test results over the years so that they would not be subject to a recall.

The recalls are based on two things: first the actual number of injuries and fatalities reported and the cars those people were driving, and second the results of Takata's testing of those 30,000 recalled airbags. Those test results, especially for the group that failed at a rate of 2.2% were much, much worse than Takata's previous testing indicated.

So yes, I know a lot about this subject and I have revealed ALL of it. Yes, Takata lied and people died. We already know that. I have been posting that since the very beginning of this thread.

*BMW has not received a single report of injuries in any BMW over the past ten years caused by failed Takata airbag inflator.* However, Takata's testing of recalled airbags, mostly from older cars in hot humid climates, revealed a failure rate of 0.07% for modules of the same model that are included in certain BMW, so you are only 99.93% safe if you are driving one of those cars. This most recent recall of 840,000 more BMWs was because of the driver in the 2006 Ford Ranger pickup truck who hit a cow in South Carolina on Dec. 22, 2015. It was that one accident that caused the NHTSA to add 5 million more cars to their hit parade, including 840,000 BMWs and more than 700,000 Mercedes. Previous testing of that module did not indicate a failure rate sufficient to cause a recall, assuming it was tested. If it had never been involved in any previously reported injury accidents, then maybe it wasn't tested. In any case, the 5 million cars that were added to the NHTSA's list in February 2016 are the result of that one accident.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> My mention of Honda Civic was deliberately sarcastic because I know Enterprise has put some BMW customers in Honda Civics and that car is the one with the most serious injuries and fatalities, by far. Sorry. :angel:
> 
> Not quite. The information Tim posted was part of the most recent bulletin at that the dealers received a few weeks back. It includes the maximum daily rental charge that BMW will pay. They will not pay any more than that amount. In order for the dealer to be reimbursed for the rental charges he would fill out a very complete RO (repair order) that includes your VIN number as well as the expected date, if known, that the replacement parts will come in. It must include the starting date and the exact daily rate charged by the rental car company and it cannot exceed the maximum allowed or the dealer will be stuck paying that himself because he will not be reimbursed more than the maximum. If necessary, the dealer must submit a new RO every month if you are still in a rental car. The part about Hertz was for a BMW rental -- if available -- and that would apply if the dealer was unable to provide a BMW loaner to a customer with a MY 2012 or newer BMW. However, if Hertz didn't have one, then the lower rates would be the maximum reimbursement allowed.
> 
> ...


Good info.

I just had a conversation with Mrs. L-F-C and she is perfectly OK with driving a rental. Then the question is, do we pay for the rental ourselves and get reimbursed or does the dealership pay for the rental? I ask because she loves CC points... and these would be the best points ever to get, the ones you don't pay for. 
The other questions: 
Who would handle maintenance on the loaner/rental? Oil/brakes/tires/whatever.
Can we opt to waive the CDW/LDW insurance and put the car in our own personal insurance policy? 
Do we have the choice of switching the rental for another model? Say, at the 3k oil change interval, I drop it off and pick up another one?

I understand your position. Seems you have been working for a BMW (dealer?) for a long time and certainly know what you're talking about. 
I don't think you're "protecting" anyone with your posts as some may have alluded to, but I think your experience is what's promoting you to post what you're posting, and it's much, much appreciated! And I believe I'm not the only one who feels this way. :thumbup:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> Good info.


Thank you! 



> I just had a conversation with Mrs. L-F-C and she is perfectly OK with driving a rental. Then the question is, do we pay for the rental ourselves and get reimbursed or does the dealership pay for the rental? I ask because she loves CC points... and these would be the best points ever to get, the ones you don't pay for.


I am almost certain the dealership has to pay directly but that is something to confirm with your dealer.



> The other questions:
> Who would handle maintenance on the loaner/rental? Oil/brakes/tires/whatever.


Should you be fortunate enough to receive a late model BMW loaner from the dealer, they would be fully responsible, as usual, for its maintenance. They would also be responsible for asking you to bring it back once it hits a certain number of miles on the odometer. At that time they would have to provide you with either a different loaner or a rental car. It's up to them.



> Can we opt to waive the CDW/LDW insurance and put the car in our own personal insurance policy?


Yes. Remember, this is not something you are paying yourself. It is something the dealership is paying and then requesting reimbursement for from BMW. The small section of a service bulletin Tim posted in this thread was not something I thought BMW intended to be made public.

It was a guideline for dealers to follow in arranging alternate transportation for their valued BMW customers. It told him the maximum BMW would pay him once he submitted the usual RO, completely filled out, requesting reimbursement. Obviously BMW expects the dealers to exercise discretion in doling out their money and not do it unnecessarily. So they love it if you passed on the optional insurance. 



> Do we have the choice of switching the rental for another model? Say, at the 3k oil change interval, I drop it off and pick up another one?


Probably yes, but that is something your dealer could tell you and I really don't know what the mileage restrictions, if any, might be but obviously the car will have to be maintained by the rental car company just as any rental car would be. This is nothing more than a long term rental and the dealer will have to keep submitting a new RO every 30 days if he expects to be paid by BMW.



> I understand your position. Seems you have been working for a BMW (dealer?) for a long time and certainly know what you're talking about.


I am a lot older than most of you probably think and I have been retired for along time now but I did work in this business for more than three decades so I know a thing or two about how things work. And yes, I was a general sales manager starting 35 years ago. I hope that doesn't give away my age too much. I'm sort of immobilized right now due to medical conditions, so I enjoy chatting about cars online. And I did work with BMW for more than a decade and that was my last experience in the business, so it was the most recent, for whatever that's worth. 



> I don't think you're "protecting" anyone with your posts as some may have alluded to, but I think your experience is what's promoting you to post what you're posting, and it's much, much appreciated! And I believe I'm not the only one who feels this way. :thumbup:


Actually I thought I was destroying Takata because I am very pissed that they have caused the stock of certain car manufacturers, one in particular, to plunge. VW's stock went in the tank earlier due to their own lies, so they have only themselves to blame for that. I have a very low opinion of Toyota because I know too much about them over the years. My opinion of Honda went down a number of notches when I learned that they repeatedly violated the law by not reporting all these serious injuries and fatalities to the NHTSA as required by U.S. law. It's the duty of both the parts manufacturer and the car manufacturer to promptly notify the NHTSA of these things and they deliberately did not do that because recalls are costly. Shame on them!

We could have fixed this problem more than a decade ago if Honda had notified the NHTSA that they had paid out a claim in 2004 for a fatality caused by a Takata airbag inflator module in 2002. Subsequently they settled dozens of such claims secretly. Toyota did the same starting in 2007. Honda even sent a secret memo to Takata in 2009 asking them to redesign the inflator modules they were providing to "make them safer."

All during that time it appears that Takata was lying to both Honda and Toyota about what was causing them to have to pay out dozens of claims for injuries and deaths. Takata provided them with "misleading and manipulated test results" and that was backed up by what the NHTSA learned in testimony from former Takata employees.

Those are the facts as they have been revealed and if anyone thinks I have been defending Takata, they're nuts. I hate Takata. They have caused BMW's stock to lose a third of it's value over the past 12 months. I have defended BMW repeatedly, so that accusation is true. Anyone would have to be blind to not see that I am biased in favor of BMW.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Quatro40 said:


> Ninong keeps postings these numbers like a mantram (are you getting paid by BMW?) when he knows they are false. Takata also lied on those tests and the failure rates where much higher than that. That is why the 14 auto manufacturers hired their own independent rocket company to perform ballistic tests on these inflators.


I've been following this thread a LONG time, and Ninong is doing anything BUT defending Takata.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I've been following this thread a LONG time, and Ninong is doing anything BUT defending Takata.
> 
> ~M~


It's a simple misunderstanding of the facts on *Quatro40*'s part. He thinks that the numbers I posted are the numbers that Takata lied about. On the contrary, they are the test results that revealed failure rates much higher than Takata's previously reported results. Those early tests are the ones that Takata manipulated.


----------



## AksNasZasNas (May 30, 2013)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I've been following this thread a LONG time, and Ninong is doing anything BUT defending Takata.
> 
> ~M~


What he said.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

10th death reported yesterday.  It happened in a Honda on March 31st http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0X32EE

I take the L a lot and don't have to drive much, but this has me thinking, given the age of my car and where it has lived. All it takes is one small wreck. I'm getting tempted to ask for alternate transportation.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

tturedraider said:


> 10th death reported yesterday.  It happened in a Honda on March 31st http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0X32EE
> 
> I take the L a lot and don't have to drive much, but this has me thinking, given the age of my car and where it has lived. All it takes is one small wreck. I'm getting tempted to ask for alternate transportation.


And so you should. No reason to play games with your life.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> The update that I'm anticipating is more details on how the Re-Lease program works, relative to contracting, residual values, etc. And a general status update.
> 
> I don't expect a change to the Prioritization Tiers that they have outlined. Just more details.
> 
> ~M~


any word on buyback programs, incentives, etc, to get you into another new or CPO if you own, not lease?

The Service Manager seemed to indicate there may be incentives for us who own rather than rent our cars...At $2400+ per month to keep in in a rental, there may be stronger incentive for me to give up my beloved X1 35i


----------



## Giggity (Mar 29, 2016)

ard said:


> I believe you are incorrect. This IS a 'voluntary' recall.
> 
> An involuntary recall is when the government does it.
> 
> ...


Interesting.

I called BMW Canada yesterday and my query on the recall was escalated to a supervisor who was fully aware of it in the US but claimed they didn't know when or even if it was coming to Canada for the same vehicles affected in the US.

I laughed and asked him if BMW felt Canadians were less litigious and he ignored my comment and basically said that BMW would ultimately be liable.

Odd coming from a rep.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

12 Handicap said:


> Was it Fields?


uh huh


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

L-F-C said:


> Just thinking while typing, so feel free to chime in with "damn you're smart" and/or "damn you're not so smart"
> 
> Others have posted the average cost of a rental for the estimated wait time to about 20k. Looking at Enterprise, for the max 44.00 a day, it seems that if I was to get a car from them tomorrow, I could only afford the economy or compact. This is for a day's rental, no more. If I put in a few months worth of rentals then I get some different numbers and cars. My 44 a day will net me as high as a full size or even a sporty sedan, possibly a midsize SUV. 8 months rental will be some 9700 USD at the max so the longest rental of a year (if it'll take that long) would be 14.500 and that's in the low humidity places. I'm sure they have a model to calculate all of these things... So then would it make sense for BMW to pay these estimated costs?
> 
> ...


I suspect, in the world of big finance and liability, the airbag folks are going to take the brunt of the costs and the lawyers, ultimately will be the big winners, making enough $$ to drive veyrons


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

tturedraider said:


> I realize this may be a stretch, but with a 2006 330i from a HAH area what do you think the odds are of getting a 320i loaner? I'd be very happy with that.


According to the current BMW policy published on this thread, unlikely. Unless you have a very good relationship with a dealer who is generous with loaners of course.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

MRCW said:


> any word on buyback programs, incentives, etc, to get you into another new or CPO if you own, not lease?
> 
> The Service Manager seemed to indicate there may be incentives for us who own rather than rent our cars...At $2400+ per month to keep in in a rental, there may be stronger incentive for me to give up my beloved X1 35i


Yes, there are incentives the dealers can use specifically for people who own/have financed their affected BMW.

As always, _See your local BMW Center for details..._. Ask a _sales manager_ about a trade in benefit.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

*A lot of the questions lately were actually discussed four weeks ago earlier in this thread, so I decided to pull up some of my responses from way back then in the early days of this discussion.* 



Ninong said:


> The law does not allow a manufacturer to sell a new car that is subject to a safety recall until after the necessary repairs have been made but it doesn't prohibit the sale of used cars under such recall. However, the law allows manufacturers to refuse to sell such used cars until after they have been repaired. For obvious reasons it would be financially irresponsible for any manufacturer to allow the sale of any of its products with a known safety defect.


Page 1, post #22, March 10.



Ninong said:


> And they don't have the option to "purchase the Vehicle AS-IS, WHERE IS" in California because the dealer is required by state law to perform a safety inspection on it and , if applicable, a smog inspection, before it can be sold back to the lessee. The dealer is allowed by the terms of the lease to charge the lessee a nominal charge for that service and that would be added to the guaranteed residual value shown on the lease agreement.


Page 2, post #42, March 10.

This was because someone wondered whether a customer could purchase his lease-end vehicle "as-is, where is," which is totally out of the question because the car is owned by BMWFS and they refuse to sell it to anyone until after the safety recall is done.



Ninong said:


> *Let's start a list of our own?*
> 
> Number of confirmed deaths from Takata airbag failures: 10
> Number of confirmed deaths from GM ignition switch failures: 124
> ...


Page 3, post #64, March 10.

This question about whether the recall is voluntary or not keeps coming up over and over again. An "official recall" is one issued by the government. The number of 840,000 was for the recall under discussion last month and that's in addition to the previous 765,000. All of the Takata airbag recalls have been "voluntary recalls." The STOP-SALE order issued by BMWNA included all BMWs regardless of year, both new and used, but the law only applies to new. If a dealer sells a used car that he owns that is under recall without first fixing it, BMW has warned him that he must accept all liability for any claims. Leased cars are owned by BMWFS and have to be sold to the dealer by BMWFS before the dealer can resell them to the lessee.

When a customer returns a leased car to the dealer, he is stuck with it until it is fixed. When the dealer takes one of these cars in trade that are affected by the airbag recall, he is stuck with it until it is fixed. He cannot force BMWFS to take them off his hands, he cannot sell them and he cannot run them through the auction. If the dealer has no more room to store them, that's his problem, not BMW's. The manufacturer, BMW, has issued a STOP-SALE on all of those cars. The dealers are caught in the middle but at least BMW is offering them financial assistance. Notice that word "offering." In other words, they can lead the horse to water but then can't make him drink.



Ninong said:


> They're not being removed from the market at all. They're just subject to BMW's voluntary recall notification.


Page 4, post #80, March 11.



Ninong said:


> If they choose to ignore the stop-sale order from BMWNA they agree to accept 100% liability in the event of an airbag failure resulting in injuries or death. Maybe those dealers have decided to accept that risk?


Page 4, post #97, March 11.

This was in answer, once again, to someone who wanted to know why dealers were refusing to sell used cars that are subject to the airbag recall if the law does not specifically include used cars because he thought he saw some of those models listed for sale on Cars . com. Two reasons: (1) if it's a lease return, it belongs to BMWFS, (2) if it's a used car owned by the customer and then traded in to the dealer, the dealer has received a STOP-SALE order from BMWNA on all cars on the recall list and if he sells one he has to agree that he is fully responsible for all claims.

So all of the questions that have been coming up lately were covered in the first two days of discussion way back in early March. I realize that many folks just read the title and then jump to the last page, so that's why I figured I would quote some of my earlier answers here. The way the law is written, manufacturers are required to take all appropriate measures to ensure the safety of their customers once they receive notice from a parts supplier of a known defect. The parts supplier is required to notify both the car manufacturer and the NHTSA. The NHTSA then places the affected cars' VIN on their recall list while they conduct their own investigation.

Long gone are the days when car manufacturers waited for the NHTSA to complete their investigation or when the NHTSA even had to go to court to get a court order forcing them to issue a recall. That happened in the late 1970's with the Ford Pinto when Ford finally issued the recall just a couple of days before the NHTSA was going to order them to do so but only after Mother Jones published an article by Ralph Nader than included a Ford Motor Company internal memo from years before that included a cost analysis of whether it was cheaper to pay the death claims for people who died in flames or recall 1.4 million cars to fix their exploding gas tanks. Ford determined it was cheaper to continue paying the death claims. That study was done several years earlier. In his book, Lee Iacocca blamed Henry Ford II. He said he asked Ford for permission to recall the Pintos to fix the gas tanks to save lives years earlier but Ford refused. He told him it was cheaper to just pay the claims for injuries and deaths of people whose cars exploded in flames when struck from the rear in serious rear-end collisions.

Yes, some of us remember those days very well. Including Firestone 500 tires that blew out at a rate double the average and were finally recalled but only after many people died. I'm old enough to have been in the business before all of that and before Truth in Lending was passed, so I experienced the evolution of a lot of changes in the car business over the past 50+ years.

In response to the Bimmerfester who lives in Canada, Transport Canada has not recalled any cars of any manufacturer there, or placed any of those cars on their recall list, because they are not aware of any reports of Takata airbag failures in that country. Some manufacturers, including BMW of Canada, have issued recall notices for the same models in Canada that were known to have the same type of Takata inflator as those recalled in the U.S. Sometimes they do not show up on the Canadian recall until days or weeks after the U.S. recall.



P.S. -- What is similar about the Ford Pinto situation and the Takata airbag situation is that in both cases the manufacturer had been warned early on, years before the problem became known publicly, that there was a problem that could cause serious injuries and even deaths. In the case of Ford, some of their internal engineers warned that the design was potentially dangerous in the event of certain types of rear-end collisions but Ford ignored that advice and kept producing those cars anyway. In the case of Takata, they were informed by their own engineers (based on testimony before the NHTSA by two former Takata engineers who did not know each other at all) more than a decade ago that the failure rate was much too high but they were told to conduct more tests to achieve the necessary results and only publish good tests.

Why didn't Henry Ford II go to prison for murder? Why isn't S. Takata under arrest right now, either here or in Japan? In China both of them would have been executed by firing squad long ago, not that I condone anything done in China. In the U.S. all of our laws that enforce auto safety or enforce our Clean Air Act provide for fines only, no criminal prosecution of the individuals who authorized those criminal acts. Just fines. Guess who helped write those laws? That's why the Dept. of Justice is using the FTC to hit VW with a lawsuit alleging "consumer fraud" for false advertising of their "clean diesels." Consumer fraud laws carry more serious penalties than violations of the Clean Air Act, which is administered by the EPA. This Takata airbag mess is administered by the NHTSA, part of the Dept. of Transportation. Individuals responsible will not be prosecuted, just fines against the corporations. Because you-know-who paid the lobbyists who helped write the laws in exchange for making campaign "contributions" to you-know-who.


----------



## asus389 (May 20, 2009)

Ninong said:


> Does anyone really wonder why there are no criminal penalties in any of those pesky government regulations that apply to the auto industry? No, seriously do any of you really wonder how that happened? The auto industry pays a lot of money to a lot of lobbyists to help the congressmen write those regulations to make sure than no individuals can ever be prosecuted or sent to prison, just the corporation can be fined, but not too much. In exchange for their cooperation the congressmen can expect some nice campaign "contributions."


Not that this makes it OK (it doesn't) but the same can be said of nearly any industry in the US these days. Regulatory capture is a big problem and its only getting worse with all of the money going into politics from PACs. It makes me sad to think of how far we have slid in even the last 20 years.

Just think, who went to jail over the BP oil spill? The mortgage crash? All of those insurers that dropped people from health coverage as soon as they got sick? All of those Tobacco people who lied about its effects on health for decades?

Its depressing.


----------



## njlou (Nov 12, 2009)

It was said by Wil Rogers many years ago that we have the best politicians that money can buy!!
Yes it is depressing.... we are the worst ever. Get ready for the coup!!


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

njlou said:


> It was said by Wil Rogers many years ago that we have the best politicians that money can buy!!
> Yes it is depressing.... we are the worst ever. Get ready for the coup!!


I thought it was " the definition of an honest politician is that once bought they stay bought"


----------



## JP 99300 (Sep 29, 2004)

I just called BMWFS this morning. They seem to have gotten the program together finally, and the people answering the phones are able to explain it (at least the guy I talked to was). I did have to ask several very specific questions, though, in order to cover all of the bases. Here is what I gathered:

BMW Early Out Re-lease (EOR) program:
- Agree to re-lease for 12 months
- Payment reduced $150 per month
- Schedule will be sent to me showing how much of that monthly payment is applied to reducing the residual (phone rep did not have access to this info and could not tell me formula)

Scenarios:
- IF, between now and the end of the 12 month extension, the parts to fix airbag are obtained, AND you want to purchase the car, you may then purchase the car AND receive $2500 credit toward your purchase price residual at that time. At that time, the credit of $2500 is ONLY good towards the purchase price of YOUR leased BMW.

- IF, you decide you do not want to purchase your BMW at the time it is fixed prior to the end of that 12 month period, you can then turn in your BMW early and be relieved of remaining obligation, but you do NOT receive any credit toward a future purchase.

- IF you finish out the 12 month re-lease period, you receive a credit towards a future purchase. You MUST finish out the 12 months re-lease term (unless a BMW dealer was to do a pull-ahead in conjunction with you buying a new BMW) in order to receive a credit towards a future purchase (see below).
- IF you satisfy the full 12 month re-lease period, you then receive a $2500 credit toward the purchase of ANY new or CPO BMW. This includes all possibilities: new ordered BMW, new on dealer lot, or CPO. I made him go check with a supervisor to confirm that the $2500 credit could be used on a new built-to-order BMW if, say, at the end of 9 months I wanted to order a new BMW to come in at the 12 month lease-end.

This is what I know as of now. I have asked them to send me all documents, including re-lease contract, with specific terms and conditions and residual values. Requesting documents does NOT require you to go ahead with the re-lease.

I know there are still more questions, but I hope this helps.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Wow! That sounds quite good and quite accommodating!


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

JP 99300 said:


> I just called BMWFS this morning. They seem to have gotten the program together finally, and the people answering the phones are able to explain it (at least the guy I talked to was). I did have to ask several very specific questions, though, in order to cover all of the bases. Here is what I gathered:
> 
> BMW Early Out Re-lease (EOR) program:
> - Agree to re-lease for 12 months
> ...


Great news, do you know the 12 months including the 2 months extension or additional to the 2 months extension?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

JP 99300 said:


> I just called BMWFS this morning. They seem to have gotten the program together finally, and the people answering the phones are able to explain it (at least the guy I talked to was).


They kept to the promise that they would have the re-lease program parameters set up by the 11th. Good on them!

I haven't seen this info pushed to dealers yet, but if I do ...

~M~


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

JP 99300 said:


> I just called BMWFS this morning. They seem to have gotten the program together finally, and the people answering the phones are able to explain it (at least the guy I talked to was). I did have to ask several very specific questions, though, in order to cover all of the bases. Here is what I gathered:
> 
> BMW Early Out Re-lease (EOR) program:
> - Agree to re-lease for 12 months
> ...


All good for the people that lease but what has been put up for the people that own or are financing right now? Apart from visit your local dealer that doesn't answer much.


----------



## ajds (Apr 1, 2016)

Did they say how close to the expiration of the lease the car needs to be to sign up?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

ajds said:


> Did they say how close to the expiration of the lease the car needs to be to sign up?


Within 60 days of original lease maturity.

~M~


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

On Saturday we went to the Fremont CA dealer where we purchased our car. At first, they said they can put us on a wait list, and there are some 50 people ahead of us. Upon insisting that we didn't want to be in a wait list, the guy we were speaking to went to get a higher up. This person stated he couldn't do anything for us, despite saying he knew everything about the recall, incentives, and loaner/rental program. Upon insisting, he called the GM who authorized a loaner until today, Monday the 11th. They put us in a 2016 328i sedan with all the trimmings. Nice car but we still prefer our 09 335i convertible. They asked us to come back to the dealership today to speak with the service manager who knows more about the program and can authorize a rental. I have called this gentleman this morning and left a message. No call back yet. I will call again in about half an hour to see what's happening. They stated they would charge us for the loaner if we don't return it today.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

*Recent Updates*

UPDATE 2/23/2016, 2:15 p.m.: A group of 10 carmakers known as the Independent Testing Coalition hired a company called Orbital ATK (which works with rocket propulsion-systems) to conduct its own tests of suspect Takata airbag inflators. The conclusions, according to Automotive News, are that "it was the combination of these three factors-the use of ammonium nitrate, the construction of Takata's inflator assembly, and the exposure to heat and humidity-that made the inflators vulnerable to rupture." These results are consistent with Takata's internal testing as well as testing by the Fraunhofer Group.

UPDATE 3/2/2016, 3:30 p.m.: Toyota has recalled another 198,000 vehicles in the U.S. for suspect Takata-supplied, passenger-side airbags. The 2008 Corolla and Corolla Matrix, as well as the 2008-2010 Lexus SC430, are now included in this action. (Earlier model years of these vehicles were already included in this recall.)

UPDATE 3/30/2016, 3:15 p.m.: According to court documents reviewed by Reuters, Honda requested that Takata redesign its faulty airbag inflators to be "fail-safe" back in 2009. That was after the company first recalled a small population of cars in 2008 after defective Takata airbag inflators in Honda models were linked to four injuries and one death. The revised inflators, which Honda began installing in 2011, have four additional holes to vent gas so that if the inflators rupture, the metal enclosure is less likely to break apart and become shrapnel. Honda did not notify NHTSA of the design change and denied that it ever had to do so, stating that it used revised parts to prevent "future manufacturing errors."

Takata is facing a bevy of lawsuits, some of which are being consolidated in a federal court in Miami. Much worse, however, are the recalls themselves. According to Bloomberg, a Takata insider has estimated the cost of recalling every single airbag inflator with ammonium nitrate-a number in excess of 280 million-to be $24 billion.

UPDATE 4/1/2016, 5:00 p.m.: According to NHTSA, 7.5 million defective airbag inflators have been replaced as of March 11. That's 33 percent out of 22.5 million. But that doesn't include another 5 million inflators recalled in February. Using those numbers, Reuters pegs the repair rate at about 25 percent, using a baseline of 29 million defective inflators. Check out NHTSA's Takata website to see the recall-completion rates by manufacturer. Honda has the highest completion rate, at 54 percent, but several carmakers have rates of less than 20 percent. Expect NHTSA to update its numbers soon.

UPDATE 4/7/2016, 3:15 p.m.: Honda has reported a death from an airbag rupture in a 2002 Civic under recall. According to KTRK-TV in Houston, 17-year-old Huma Hanif rear-ended another car on March 31 in Richmond, Texas. Although her airbag deployed, investigators determined the crash wasn't severe enough to kill the teenager. Her throat was lacerated by the airbag inflator and a witness described her collapsing after exiting her car. Hanif is the 11th Takata-related death worldwide, the 10th in the U.S., and the 10th in a Honda.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> Great news, do you know the 12 months including the 2 months extension or additional to the 2 months extension?


If you have already signed a 2-month lease agreement, you will be offered a new 12-month lease agreement when that one expires. At least that is my understanding. I believe they are currently offering 12-month extensions instead of the previous 2-month extensions. The 12-month extension offer had not yet cleared BMW legal at the time they were doing 2-month agreements.



Quatro40 said:


> All good for the people that lease but what has been put up for the people that own or are financing right now? Apart from visit your local dealer that doesn't answer much.


If you have a BMW that is affected by the recall and have the recall letter, then you have the option to return it to the dealer _IF_ you feel unsafe driving it and ask for alternate transportation while waiting for parts to become available to repair the airbag. If your car is a 2012 or newer, the alternate transportation _MIGHT_ be a BMW loaner but only if the dealer has one available. If not, it _MIGHT_ be a BMW rental, if one is available, otherwise it will be a non-BMW rental. This is not left up to the discretion of the dealer. He has very strict guidelines on the maximum amount BMW will reimburse him for rental charges.

If your car is 2011 or older, you qualify for a non-BMW rental car _IF_ you feel unsafe driving it and request a rental car in the meantime. The dealer may take your car into his storage or he may ask you to keep it at home but not drive it. You would have to sign a legal agreement to that effect.



ajds said:


> Did they say how close to the expiration of the lease the car needs to be to sign up?


Are you asking about signing a lease extension? If so, you have to be at the end of the lease because an extension can only be added on after the current lease agreement matures. The first monthly payment that would qualify for the $150/month reduction would be the 37th payment, assuming you have a typical 36-month lease. All you are doing is making your 36-month lease become a 48-month lease, except that you have options to end it once it is repaired, assuming that happens before the 48th payment is made. Obviously BMW expects to be able to complete these repairs BEFORE the 12-month extensions reach maturity.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Are you asking about signing a lease extension? If so, you have to be at the end of the lease because an extension can only be added on after the current lease agreement matures.


If by lease extension you mean the Re-Lease program, you can and have to be within 60 days of your lease maturity. If you are outside of 60 days, this is not an option. If you are, let me know.

~M~


----------



## psycho (Jul 2, 2002)

L-F-C said:


> On Saturday we went to the Fremont CA dealer where we purchased our car. At first, they said they can put us on a wait list, and there are some 50 people ahead of us. Upon insisting that we didn't want to be in a wait list, the guy we were speaking to went to get a higher up. This person stated he couldn't do anything for us, despite saying he knew everything about the recall, incentives, and loaner/rental program. Upon insisting, he called the GM who authorized a loaner until today, Monday the 11th. They put us in a 2016 328i sedan with all the trimmings. Nice car but we still prefer our 09 335i convertible. They asked us to come back to the dealership today to speak with the service manager who knows more about the program and can authorize a rental. I have called this gentleman this morning and left a message. No call back yet. I will call again in about half an hour to see what's happening. They stated they would charge us for the loaner if we don't return it today.


LOL (sadly) on that last sentence.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> On Saturday we went to the Fremont CA dealer where we purchased our car. At first, they said they can put us on a wait list, and there are some 50 people ahead of us. Upon insisting that we didn't want to be in a wait list, the guy we were speaking to went to get a higher up. This person stated he couldn't do anything for us, despite saying he knew everything about the recall, incentives, and loaner/rental program. Upon insisting, he called the GM who authorized a loaner until today, Monday the 11th. They put us in a 2016 328i sedan with all the trimmings. Nice car but we still prefer our 09 335i convertible. They asked us to come back to the dealership today to speak with the service manager who knows more about the program and can authorize a rental. I have called this gentleman this morning and left a message. No call back yet. I will call again in about half an hour to see what's happening. They stated they would charge us for the loaner if we don't return it today.


Sorry you are having a frustrating experience dealing with your dealership, which just happens to be part of the largest national chain dealership in the country. I suspect the delay might be caused by the fact that they have to await orders-from-headquarters before doing anything and this is an evolving situation. Maybe there is a built-in delay before word trickles down to the people you are talking to?

Whenever any dealership provides a customer with a loaner, there is usually a date that it is expected to be returned. However, I don't think it's good for their CSI for them to speak of "consequences" for not returning the car on time. It almost sounds like they are threatening to file a police report on you if you don't turn it back exactly on schedule and not an hour later. 

If they have any sort of a "wait list," then it seems they have been swamped with people exactly like you who want loaners or rental cars and they are having a hard time physically dealing with the volume of such requests. Even if something is offered and you know you can demand it doesn't mean it's going to happen if it's physically impossible. For example, if 100 people exactly like you show up at 8 a.m. tomorrow morning asking for a loaner car or a rental they won't be able to process that many people in one day. Simply impossible.

What if 500 of you guys show up and form a line a mile long? That's not just a hypothetical question. This latest recall alone caused BMW to mail out 840,000 recall notices over the past two or three weeks. There are only 340 BMW dealerships in the entire country and some of them are very small. That's 2,470 recalled customers per dealer and that's not counting the previous 765,000 that were recalled previously. So, no, the dealer cannot spit out a couple thousand loaners just because a couple thousand people show up asking for one. And Enterprise and Hertz don't own enough cars to supply 20-30 million customers waiting for their airbags to be fixed. It's not going to happen. It's an offer from BMW that cannot be fulfilled if everyone shows up. I doubt it will be possible if only 10% of the people show up.

First of all, do you really feel unsafe in your car? Honestly. I don't know what year it is but I know that for you to have a problem you first have to be in a front-end collision that deploys the airbag, then your chances of it being a good airbag are maybe 99.93%, based on the only available testing so far. Even the worse performing airbags, those used in Hondas more than six years ago, are safe 98% of the time.

However, that's your decision. BMW is offering to provide you with a rental if you really and truly would rather drive one of those things instead of your nice BMW. Do you really think the rental car Enterprise puts you in is more than 99.93% safe in an accident? Your call.


----------



## psycho (Jul 2, 2002)

Ninong said:


> Sorry you are having a frustrating experience dealing with your dealership, which just happens to be part of the largest national chain dealership in the country. I suspect the delay might be caused by the fact that they have to await orders-from-headquarters before doing anything and this is an evolving situation. Maybe there is a built-in delay before word trickles down to the people you are talking to?
> 
> Whenever any dealership provides a customer with a loaner, there is usually a date that it is expected to be returned. However, I don't think it's good for their CSI for them to speak of "consequences" for not returning the car on time. It almost sounds like they are threatening to file a police report on you if you don't turn it back exactly on schedule and not an hour later.
> 
> ...


All good points. Any BMW > any rental they are going to give you, plus you will end up making BMW-like payments for a non-BMW.


----------



## sk330i (Oct 25, 2002)

I wonder if you opt for the 12-month re-lease and, say, month 7 the repair is done, if you can keep the car for the full 12-month term and then get the $2500 credit toward the next purchase/lease.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Ninong, I would feel safer in my X5 than MOST rental cars available, so if I hadnt gotten into my loaner car early (Im told no more are available at my dealer at all, and 35 people called just on Friday to ask for a loaner), I would probably stay in my X5. I do want to say that apparently if I sign an affidavit to not drive my car, I can take it home so that i can put it up on jack stands and put a battery tender on it. I think I am going to try and do that next week. I think it helps the dealer with them not having to store it and me with being able to maintain it at the same time. I will update when I figure out what I can do.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

psycho said:


> LOL (sadly) on that last sentence.


Yea, it's a bit of a let down... We wouldn't mind driving this until the airbag gets fixed but I doubt they'll let us. 
One interesting fact... they had left the papers of the last person who loaned it in the car. A guy had come in for an oil leak on a 2006 328 and they had quoted him some 900 USD for a gasket replacement. Note to self.. pick up papers from loaner before dropoff.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> Yea, it's a bit of a let down... We wouldn't mind driving this until the airbag gets fixed but I doubt they'll let us.
> One interesting fact... they had left the papers of the last person who loaned it in the car. A guy had come in for an oil leak on a 2006 328 and they had quoted him some 900 USD for a gasket replacement. Note to self.. pick up papers from loaner before dropoff.


Yeah, the one I got a lady had left her paperwork for a hydrocodone prescription in it with her name and address :yikes::yikes: and the loaner contract states you cand be on prescription drugs when you drive it.


----------



## BMW_AUS (Mar 19, 2013)

JP 99300 said:


> I just called BMWFS this morning. They seem to have gotten the program together finally, and the people answering the phones are able to explain it (at least the guy I talked to was). I did have to ask several very specific questions, though, in order to cover all of the bases. Here is what I gathered:
> 
> BMW Early Out Re-lease (EOR) program:
> - Agree to re-lease for 12 months
> ...


Thanks for posting the details.


----------



## danielmarc (Aug 12, 2015)

My wife's 2015 X1 is on the list on got our notification last week. We just leased the vehicle in August, so we still have some 28 months left on our lease. My thought was to just keep driving the X1 until we were notified that replacement parts were available. Discussed this with my wife this weekend and told her why they car was being recalled and now she's totally freaked out about driving it. I haven't talked to my dealer about this yet, but I just can't comprehend being put in a loaner vehicle for possibly a year or more. On the plus side, any concerns about mileage overage on the X1 would be totally put at rest. However, she loves her X1 and all of the options it has - it seems like we'd be playing Loaner Roulette as far as features and options go.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> If by lease extension you mean the Re-Lease program, you can and have to be within 60 days of your lease maturity. If you are outside of 60 days, this is not an option. If you are, let me know.
> 
> ~M~


That's what I said. They have to be at the end of their current lease in order to do a 12-month extension. Obviously they will receive the notification letter 60 days in advance of their current agreement's expiration date but the new 12-month extension would be effective starting with the expiration date of their current lease agreement, right?

In other words, if they're on a 36-month lease, the extension begins after the 36th payment has been made and the first payment on the 12-month extension should be the exact same date as a 37th payment on their current lease except that the amount of the payment is reduced by $150/month.

I don't think you're offering 2-month extensions any more, right?


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

danielmarc said:


> My wife's 2015 X1 is on the list on got our notification last week. We just leased the vehicle in August, so we still have some 28 months left on our lease. My thought was to just keep driving the X1 until we were notified that replacement parts were available. Discussed this with my wife this weekend and told her why they car was being recalled and now she's totally freaked out about driving it. I haven't talked to my dealer about this yet, but I just can't comprehend being put in a loaner vehicle for possibly a year or more. On the plus side, any concerns about mileage overage on the X1 would be totally put at rest. However, she loves her X1 and all of the options it has - it seems like we'd be playing Loaner Roulette as far as features and options go.


If she isnt comfortable driving it then there is really only 1 option for you. You might be able to request something well equipped to drive depending on whats available and your relationship with the dealership.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Ninong, I would feel safer in my X5 than MOST rental cars available, so if I hadnt gotten into my loaner car early (Im told no more are available at my dealer at all, and 35 people called just on Friday to ask for a loaner), I would probably stay in my X5. I do want to say that apparently if I sign an affidavit to not drive my car, I can take it home so that i can put it up on jack stands and put a battery tender on it. I think I am going to try and do that next week. I think it helps the dealer with them not having to store it and me with being able to maintain it at the same time. I will update when I figure out what I can do.


If the dealer doesn't have room to store any more of these cars awaiting airbag replacement, he can have you sign a legal agreement that you will drive it straight home and store it without anyone driving it until such time as the parts are available to fix it, at which time you are allowed to drive it straight to the dealership for airbag repairs.

You would be driving a rental car during that time _IF_ you tell the dealer you feel unsafe driving your X5. I don't feel unsafe driving my car and it probably has a Takata airbag and it is 19 years old and been in a hot humid climate for the past 18 years since I retired. My car will only be recalled if the NHTSA decides to issue a recall for another 70 million cars -- every Takata airbag still on the road in the U.S. But my car is only rarely used and never at night.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Update: 

Spoke to service manager and he stated that if I can stretch my 44 USD a day for a rental to get a limo, I can. But what he doesn't know is what period rental this will be for. When I told him that BMW has up to 2017 to fix the airbags he said he didn't know anything about that. So I'm bringing a printout of a Reuters article noting these details. 
He said we would authorize the rental but BMW will pick up the bill. Unsure how on the details... and it seems that 44 USD a day can easily get me into a premium Enterprise car or a midsize SUV. I think that of course depends on the rental location and availability. And we will try to put in the frequent renter's number which should net us some nice free rental points for future use. 

Because this will be a long rental, I will:
1. Check for recalls on the rental.
2. Ask about maintenance on the rental
3. Ask how will BMW pay the bill (us reimbursed by BMW, or BMW directly)

Anything I'm missing?

Will update once we have the rental, in a few hours.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> If your car is 2011 or older, you qualify for a non-BMW rental car _IF_ you feel unsafe driving it and request a rental car in the meantime. The dealer may take your car into his storage or he may ask you to keep it at home but not drive it. You would have to sign a legal agreement to that effect.


I know about the loaner program, but I am referring to the financial assistance package or trade in benefit if you own a recalled car. For example I own a 2011 X5 my parts won't be in until after July 2018 that is two years taking a 2% risk every time I drive the car. It also roughly $15000 that BMW will incur per rental. Why not offer a 15k credit on a new or CPO 
deal.

Also if from now till then I decided to trade in my X5 I would be forced to go to another brand dealer that will take the trade in and no longer be a BMW customer.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

danielmarc said:


> My wife's 2015 X1 is on the list on got our notification last week. We just leased the vehicle in August, so we still have some 28 months left on our lease. My thought was to just keep driving the X1 until we were notified that replacement parts were available. Discussed this with my wife this weekend and told her why they car was being recalled and now she's totally freaked out about driving it. I haven't talked to my dealer about this yet, but I just can't comprehend being put in a loaner vehicle for possibly a year or more. On the plus side, any concerns about mileage overage on the X1 would be totally put at rest. However, she loves her X1 and all of the options it has - it seems like we'd be playing Loaner Roulette as far as features and options go.


I think your wife is freaking out only because she doesn't know all the facts. You might want to start by telling her that BMW has never received a report of injuries caused by the failure of a Takata airbag inflator in any of their cars over the past 10 years. Also tell her that 10 of the 11 fatalities were in older model Hondas and the other one was in a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup that hit a cow in South Carolina. Almost all of the reported injuries happened in older cars (average age 8-11.5 years old) in hot humid climates -- almost all of them were in the Gulf Coast states plus Georgia and South Carolina, as well as Puerto Rico and Guam.

This most recent recall was because of that guy in the 10-year old Ford Ranger pickup who ran into an unfortunate cow in South Carolina. Apparently it is that model of Takata airbag inflator that he had in his truck that caused all 5 million cars to be added to the list. This list is not based on the previous test results, it's based on this one accident in South Carolina. Unless your car is 10 years old and unless you're close to the coast and there are a lot of cows roaming the roads in Maryland, I wouldn't freak out too much. Just my personal opinion.

Explain to your wife that the problem is that over a period of several years in hot humid climates moisture is absorbed by the stable ammonium nitrate propellant in the inflator module causing it to rupture with excessive force in a front-end collision and this can sometimes cause the module housing to break apart, shooting pieces of metal into the passenger compartment of the vehicle. This is extremely unlikely to happen in any car that is only a year old.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Ninong said:


> If the dealer doesn't have room to store any more of these cars awaiting airbag replacement, he can have you sign a legal agreement that you will drive it straight home and store it without anyone driving it until such time as the parts are available to fix it, at which time you are allowed to drive it straight to the dealership for airbag repairs.
> 
> You would be driving a rental car during that time _IF_ you tell the dealer you feel unsafe driving your X5. I* don't feel unsafe driving my car and it probably has a Takata airbag and it is 19 years old and been in a hot humid climate for the past 18 years since I retired.* My car will only be recalled if the NHTSA decides to issue a recall for another 70 million cars -- every Takata airbag still on the road in the U.S. But my car is only rarely used and never at night.


Same for my 02 X5 with a sport package. It uses the same steering wheel and airbag part number as the e46 with sport package that have been recalled, as well as the 03 X5 with sport package wheel that was recalled. I was surprised that it wasnt added to the list before too.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Same for my 02 X5 with a sport package. It uses the same steering wheel and airbag part number as the e46 with sport package that have been recalled, as well as the 03 X5 with sport package wheel that was recalled. I was surprised that it wasnt added to the list before too.


That's a good question that I have never asked because I have always assumed that I just knew the answer and I think my assumption is probably correct but since I have never really checked on it I would hate to say anything. Let's just say that I didn't see any cars older than MY2000 on BMW's list and let it go at that. I think I know why but I'm not 100% positive. In any case, I'm not worried at all. Maybe I should be but I'm not.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

While I'm waiting for Mrs. L-F-C to come pick me up so we can go get the rental, a question popped up in my mind...

Our car is now with the dealer. They took it, keys and all, and a full tank of gas. Now at the latest the car will sit in their lot for about a year, though we hope much less than that. Will they do anything to the car? Such as, turn it on once in a while, so the gasoline doesn't go bad, dried out hoses and the like, tires developing flat spots etc... Cars dont like sitting around for a long time without being driven, and my concern is about the deterioration of its components. I haven't seen anything in the forums about addressing these concerns. Anyone know anything?


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> While I'm waiting for Mrs. L-F-C to come pick me up so we can go get the rental, a question popped up in my mind...
> 
> Our car is now with the dealer. They took it, keys and all, and a full tank of gas. Now at the latest the car will sit in their lot for about a year, though we hope much less than that. Will they do anything to the car? Such as, turn it on once in a while, so the gasoline doesn't go bad, dried out hoses and the like, tires developing flat spots etc... Cars dont like sitting around for a long time without being driven, and my concern is about the deterioration of its components. I haven't seen anything in the forums about addressing these concerns. Anyone know anything?


I doubt it, thats why I am going to ask for mine back with an affidavit that I wont drive it so I can keep the battery charged and start it every week or two.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> Okay, that's good. I remember when you asked them about lowering the payment you already made by $150 and they told you they couldn't do that but they would lower your next payment by $150. So that's how they're doing it, which is even better because you will have a signed copy of this new 12-month agreement spelling out the details on the declining residual as well as your options for early termination should parts become available to fix the airbag. Then you can buy it from them right then and there if you prefer instead of waiting unti the end of the extension.


Agreed, plus I will get a 2500 credit towards the purchase of the car if it gets fixed by then!


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> You must comply with exactly what is printed on the lease contract you signed because anything less constitutes default of the contract. That means you cannot exceed the deductibles allowed as spelled out on your lease contract and you cannot carry lower limits than those required by your contract. Before you change anything on your own that would not meet those requirements, you need something in writing from BMW Financial Services authorizing such changes. It's not something you should do based on any conversation with a person in the dealer's service department who is not familiar with insurance or with motor vehicle leases.
> 
> It goes without saying that the dealer's garage owner's policy does not cover any of your personal items that you may have left in the trunk or glove box. Just in case that applies to anyone. You can't go back a week from now and say, "My wife just told me she left her $20,000 Rolex in the glove box so would you please go retrieve it and bring it up to me." Or, "I forgot my laptop in the trunk." That's not covered by their insurance.


Its ok, i didnt much like her Rolex anyway  
We bought the car, and i will check our financing agreement for those limits on insurance. I also plan to call BMW to find out some more info on these gray areas. Will update. 
Thanks so much for your assistance with this issue. Its good to know we can come to these boards and get help from good people like you.


----------



## JP 99300 (Sep 29, 2004)

Prost said:


> Great, your case is exactly the same as my case, should I call this week or should I still wait till after 4/11 per Michael?


Um, today is 4/11. :thumbup:


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

JP 99300 said:


> Um, today is 4/11. :thumbup:


What I mentioned would be an update on 4.11 is the details of the Re-lease program. Looks like my friend Angler got the skinny ahead of the dealers.

Keep in mind that the Re-lease is all BMWFS. Dealers might not get the full details as we're not involved in this contracting and we're not handling a lease turn in.

I think FS has the program set and ready for those who want the 12 month extension.

~M~


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

JP 99300 said:


> Um, today is 4/11. :thumbup:


Man, I must be too busy dealing with my tax...hahahahaha


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Seems our purchase agreement notes that we have to buy comprehensive and liability insurance. No limit is set on deductibles in fact the fields are blank, and the collision insurance box is not checked. Is this standard or did someone screw this up?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> Seems our purchase agreement notes that we have to buy comprehensive and liability insurance. No limit is set on deductibles in fact the fields are blank, and the collision insurance box is not checked. Is this standard or did someone screw this up?


The back side of your bmw contract stipulates that deductibles can't exceed $1,000 and you have to maintain full coverage $100/$300/$50k.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> Seems our purchase agreement notes that we have to buy comprehensive and liability insurance. No limit is set on deductibles in fact the fields are blank, and the collision insurance box is not checked. Is this standard or did someone screw this up?


Isn't that just your Agreement to Provide Insurance form? It shows you Insurance Company, your policy number, their phone number, the date of your current policy period and you signed it. Your insurance company is going to send the lienholder the lienholder's copy of the declarations page anyway. Besides, aren't the coverage requirements spelled out on your actual finance contract that you signed? Check and see.

The agreement to provide insurance form serves two purposes. It shows that you are aware of your obligation to provide your own insurance and it declares your intention to have this car added to your current policy with that insurance company. This is very helpful in the awful event that you are involved in a serious accident before you can even get in touch with your agent or the company. Yes, that sometimes happens. You're automatically covered anyway but it's nice if there is something like this in writing with your signature on it just in case there is any doubt or in case it slips your mind for a few days.

In California the legal limit for notifying your insurance company is 30 days from the day you took possession of the car but it's still your responsibility to notify them as soon as possible and not wait until the 29th day. Some customers actually are under the mistaken belief that if they just wait a few weeks they will somehow save money on their insurance because they will start their coverage at the last minute just before the 30 days is up. Haha! Not! The financial institution (bank, BMWFS, credit union) always catches that when they receive their copy of the declarations page and notice that the dates are off. Your car has to be covered beginning with day one and that's state law too when it comes to mandated liability coverage. So it doesn't save you any money. Some people seemed to think it would. Nope.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

neuro0 said:


> Can I return my recall car early for the pull ahead to my local dealership if I have an order with an out of state dealer? I am over my mileage allowance now, how does the excess charge calculate in situation like this? I probably will return it one month early.


Call BMWFS on your own and explain what's going on. Give them your production number or other verification that you have a BMW on order through an out-of-state dealer. Ask them if you can return you car early. I assume the dealer who ordered your new car already submitted your credit app to BMWFS for approval on the new one, right?

See what they tell you. BTW, in general you can return your car to any BMW dealership. Only if you're working a trade-in where you expect extra value of some sort for the car you're trading in does it become necessary to deal with the same dealer who ordered your new car. If you're just pushing the old car back on them, you can do that anywhere, just be careful nobody tries to mess with you on any charges. Even if they hit you with a disposition fee (unlikely, in my opinion if you have a recall letter on it) that would be refunded as a credit against your new BMWFS account within weeks after it is opened.

Just clear it all with BMWFS firsthand so you will know what's going on yourself and not have to ask somebody else for that answer.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> The back side of your bmw contract stipulates that deductibles can't exceed $1,000 and you have to maintain full coverage $100/$300/$50k.
> 
> ~M~


there is no numerical minimum in the back of the contract. It stipulates that I need to maintain "physical damage insurance covering loss of or damage to the vehicle for the term of this contract"



Ninong said:


> Isn't that just your Agreement to Provide Insurance form? It shows you Insurance Company, your policy number, their phone number, the date of your current policy period and you signed it. Your insurance company is going to send the lienholder the lienholder's copy of the declarations page anyway. Besides, aren't the coverage requirements spelled out on your actual finance contract that you signed? Check and see.
> 
> The agreement to provide insurance form serves two purposes. It shows that you are aware of your obligation to provide your own insurance and it declares your intention to have this car added to your current policy with that insurance company. This is very helpful in the awful event that you are involved in a serious accident before you can even get in touch with your agent or the company. Yes, that sometimes happens. You're automatically covered anyway but it's nice if there is something like this in writing with your signature on it just in case there is any doubt or in case it slips your mind for a few days.
> 
> In California the legal limit for notifying your insurance company is 30 days from the day you took possession of the car but it's still your responsibility to notify them as soon as possible and not wait until the 29th day. Some customers actually are under the mistaken belief that if they just wait a few weeks they will somehow save money on their insurance because they will start their coverage at the last minute just before the 30 days is up. Haha! Not! The financial institution (bank, BMWFS, credit union) always catches that when they receive their copy of the declarations page and notice that the dates are off. Your car has to be covered beginning with day one and that's state law too when it comes to mandated liability coverage. So it doesn't save you any money. Some people seemed to think it would. Nope.


Attached is the statement of insurance portion of my contract. Nothing is checked, all fields are marked as N/A

The one I posted earlier is my statement of insurance, as you noticed. They asked us about insurance when we were finalizing the contract and I added the car on the spot on my Progressive policy and emailed the dealership finance guy the declaration page in the following 2 minutes.

No limits anywhere in the contract, nothing stipulating collision, though I do have it in my coverage. Removing/downgrading some of the deductibles saves small money per month but over the course of the rental I'm getting, it could be significant.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> there is no numerical minimum in the back of the contract. It stipulates that I need to maintain "physical damage insurance covering loss of or damage to the vehicle for the term of this contract"
> 
> Attached is the statement of insurance portion of my contract. Nothing is checked, all fields are marked as N/A
> 
> ...


That's still not what we're talking about. That's just the section that shows if you included any insurance premiums in the finance contract.

As part of the actual wording of the requirements of the contract it should spell out the insurance requirements. On a lease it would stipulate both the minimum liability requirements as well as the maximum allowable deductibles. On a loan it should spell out the maximum allowable deductibles. It's up to you on a loan exactly how much your liability limits are provided you comply with state-mandated minimums. BMW can't be sued on a loan, just a lease. Remember the distinction: loan = you own it but you still owe money on it, lease = they own it and they're renting it to you.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with the newer forms because they have definitely changed since my time, but the requirements haven't, so they're on there somewhere. You have to read the thing.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> What I mentioned would be an update on 4.11 is the details of the Re-lease program. Looks like my friend Angler got the skinny ahead of the dealers.
> 
> Keep in mind that the Re-lease is all BMWFS. Dealers might not get the full details as we're not involved in this contracting and we're not handling a lease turn in.
> 
> ...


Anything new about those of us that purchased our cars?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

12 Handicap said:


> Anything new about those of us that purchased our cars?


Yes we're screwed 4 ways.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> What I mentioned would be an update on 4.11 is the details of the Re-lease program. Looks like my friend Angler got the skinny ahead of the dealers.
> 
> Keep in mind that the Re-lease is all BMWFS. Dealers might not get the full details as we're not involved in this contracting and we're not handling a lease turn in.
> 
> ...


I am thinking, if I call today, they will probably waive my initial two months extension early and start my 12 months extension (with $150 reduction of payment) on May 1st, what if I call on May 2nd? Aren't they have to start the 12 months extension on June 1st?

Not that I want to since the car at the end of the extension will be out of warranty and maintenance, but isn't it true?


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Quatro40 said:


> Yes we're screwed 4 ways.


Maybe. The Mrs is freaked out about the recall letter she received this week; I intentionally had _*not*_ told her about this cluster f**k. We're going to be in SoCal next week and will now take the X5 instead of the truck. We've escalated this up the Penske chain & have an appointment with the service director Monday morning. We own the '13 X5 outright.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

12 Handicap said:


> Anything new about those of us that purchased our cars?


Nothing new. BMW is providing incentives that the dealers can use to help those of you who own or have financed to trade in your affected vehicle.

The amount of the incentive varies by model.

Ask your local dealer what they have for Trade-in Benefit for you.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> there is no numerical minimum in the back of the contract. It stipulates that I need to maintain "physical damage insurance covering loss of or damage to the vehicle for the term of this contract"
> 
> No limits anywhere in the contract, nothing stipulating collision, though I do have it in my coverage. Removing/downgrading some of the deductibles saves small money per month but over the course of the rental I'm getting, it could be significant.


It's section 23 in the BMWFS lease agreement. See image.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> It's section 23 in the BMWFS lease agreement. See image.
> 
> ~M~


I think he's on a finance contract. He posted a picture of the Agreement to Furnish Insurance, which, of course, includes the State of California notice telling him he is required to carry liability insurance. That is NOT part of his BMWFS finance contract requirement, because finance contracts only specify your comprehensive and collision (physical damage) insurance requirements and usually specify a maximum deductible allowed. He's confusing the Agreement to Furnish Insurance with what is specified on the actual contract itself, which is a different instrument.

Please post a picture of the insurance requirement section from a BMWFS finance contract.

Thanks.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Please post a picture of the insurance requirement section from a BMWFS finance contract.


Here it is...

~M~


----------



## BenF12400 (Sep 2, 2009)

Maybe BMW and other manufacturers of the recalled vehicles can give us suits of armor until the airbags are replaced


----------



## 2013-135I-M (Apr 13, 2016)

angler said:


> I received my new paper work for the lease extension. It's exactly how they described it. it supersedes my original extension by starting in April. Goes for 12 months with a new Gross Cap Cost which was significantly lower then my buyout from one month ago before my car was recalled. The residual is much lower as well. When i called to confirm about using the 2500 if the car gets fixed I was told that I can use the certificate towards buying my car, or any new or CPO car from BMW. Very satisfied with the outcome. Any question feel free to ask.


I also received the same information for my 2013 135i coupe yesterday. I need to decide in the next 48 hours whether to sign on the dotted line. The buy out price 1 year from now looks very good, but I remain very concerned that I won't have the option to exercise it given that the prevailing wisdom seems to be that the parts will not be available until after April of 2017, when my extended lease matures. The dealer I've been working with noted that they have begun receiving parts, but have yet to receive any (or any information) about 1-Series part timelines.

Can anyone offer insight on this situation?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

2013-135I-M said:


> I also received the same information for my 2013 135i coupe yesterday. I need to decide in the next 48 hours whether to sign on the dotted line. The buy out price 1 year from now looks very good, but I remain very concerned that I won't have the option to exercise it given that the prevailing wisdom seems to be that the parts will not be available until after April of 2017, when my extended lease matures. The dealer I've been working with noted that they have begun receiving parts, but have yet to receive any (or any information) about 1-Series part timelines.
> 
> Can anyone offer insight on this situation?


I feel like it's a no brainer. Worst comes to worst the car isn't fixed next year and they will come up with something else to keep you in the car. In the mean time you are paying 150 less on your car on a monthly basis, have another option in a year to buy it if it's fixed, give it back if you are tired of it or get a better deal from BMW if the car isn't fixed at that point in time. Not to mention the 2500 hanging out there. It's a win/win if you ask me. Not sure where the risk is to sign up for another year. Anyway thats my view for what it's worth.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Ninong said:


> That sounds like an *excellent* outcome. Good on you! Especially since you know you want to buy it.


Great outcome, whether I buy the car or not! Gives lots of options and I like options!


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Boomer1976 said:


> That is a great deal and BMW definitely stepped up!
> 
> I wish they had something for us that bought these vehicles prior to this fiasco.


I got lucky as I was sending in the paper work to complete the transaction on buying the car out of lease when the car got recalled. Sometimes its better to be lucky then smart!


----------



## 2013-135I-M (Apr 13, 2016)

angler said:


> I feel like it's a no brainer. Worst comes to worst the car isn't fixed next year and they will come up with something else to keep you in the car. In the mean time you are paying 150 less on your car on a monthly basis, have another option in a year to buy it if it's fixed, give it back if you are tired of it or get a better deal from BMW if the car isn't fixed at that point in time. Not to mention the 2500 hanging out there. It's a win/win if you ask me. Not sure where the risk is to sign up for another year. Anyway thats my view for what it's worth.


Point taken. The risk, from my perspective, is that I'll have to drop $1500 on tires this summer and that could end up being a sunk cost if BMW doesn't come up with a solution by next April. Further, without any certainty about being able to buy the car, I wonder if I should just take the $4.5K I'll spend in lease payments over the next 12 months and put it toward a used Boxster (not a fan of the M235i). Just extremely frustrated that BMW is requiring lease holders to go into this extension with no insight into their plan for replacement parts. All I know is that my car is likely in the lowest priority group (not in high humidity area, and newer model).


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

2013-135I-M said:


> Point taken. The risk, from my perspective, is that I'll have to drop $1500 on tires this summer and that could end up being a sunk cost if BMW doesn't come up with a solution by next April. Further, without any certainty about being able to buy the car, I wonder if I should just take the $4.5K I'll spend in lease payments over the next 12 months and put it toward a used Boxster (not a fan of the M235i). Just extremely frustrated that BMW is requiring lease holders to go into this extension with no insight into their plan for replacement parts. All I know is that my car is likely in the lowest priority group (not in high humidity area, and newer model).


I need to buy tires as well. I find it hard to believe that BMW wouldn't come up with another plan to keep us in our cars if the fix wasn't in yet. So for me it's really not a big risk. I am in the same camp as you concerning the m235. Sometime you just have to trust the process!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

2013-135I-M said:


> I also received the same information for my 2013 135i coupe yesterday. I need to decide in the next 48 hours whether to sign on the dotted line. The buy out price 1 year from now looks very good, but I remain very concerned that I won't have the option to exercise it given that the prevailing wisdom seems to be that the parts will not be available until after April of 2017, when my extended lease matures. The dealer I've been working with noted that they have begun receiving parts, but have yet to receive any (or any information) about 1-Series part timelines.
> 
> Can anyone offer insight on this situation?


I would not be concerned at all if I were you. They will work with you to keep you completely satisfied. They don't like this situation that they find themselves in either. In fact, they like it less than you do because it's costing them a ton of money. They will do everything they can possibly do to keep you in your car if that's what you want.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

*Warning: Long post*



2013-135I-M said:


> ... Just extremely frustrated that BMW is requiring lease holders to go into this extension with no insight into their plan for replacement parts. All I know is that my car is likely in the lowest priority group (not in high humidity area, and newer model).


They have a "plan" that's mandated from NHSTA:

*BMW Specific "Sufficient Supply Timeline"*

Priority Group 1: August 31, 2016
Priority Group 2: February 28, 2017
Priority Group 3: May 31, 2017

*BMW Specific "Remedy Completion Target Deadline"*

Priority Group 1: May 31, 2018
Priority Group 2: May 31, 2018
Priority Group 3: May 31, 2018
Priority Group 4: May 31, 2020

This amendment to the Coordinated Remedy Order was signed off on March 15, 2016.

*Priority Group 1*
Vehicles in Priority Group 1 are equipped with Takata inflators that pose the highest risk of rupture and thus the highest risk of injury or death to the vehicle occupants. Generally, Priority Group 1 vehicles are currently model year 2008 and earlier, and have spent time in the HAH region, and have either a recalled driver side inflator or both recalled driver side and passenger side inflators in the same vehicle. ​
*Priority Group 2*
Vehicles in Priority Group 2 are equipped with Takata inflators that pose an intermediate risk of rupture; that is, a lower risk of rupture and resulting injury or death to vehicle occupants than the inflators and vehicles in Priority Group 1, but a higher likelihood of rupture and injury or death than vehicles in Priority Groups 3 and 4. Generally, Priority Group 2 includes: (1) all remaining vehicles with recalled driver side inflators (this includes, vehicles 2009 and newer, and/or vehicles with recalled driver inflators only that have not spent time in the HAH region), and; (2) vehicles with certain recalled passenger inflator types that have a higher rupture frequency and that have also spent time in the HAH region. ​
*Priority Group 3*
Vehicles in Priority Group 3 are equipped with Takata inflators that pose an unreasonable risk of serious injury or death to vehicle occupants and should be remedied as soon as possible following the remedy of the highest risk vehicles in Priority Groups 1 and 2. The likelihood of these inflators rupturing is lower than Priority Groups 1 and 2. Generally, Priority Group 3 includes the remaining vehicles, specifically, vehicles that are model year 2009 and later and either: (1) are outside the HAH region and contain only a passenger side inflator, or; (2) are in the HAH region and contain a specific passenger side inflator type with a lower rupture rate (the PSPI type) than other passenger side inflator types. ​
*Priority Group 4*
Some Initial Vehicle Manufacturers are replacing recalled inflators with newly manufactured "like-for-like" inflators while they work towards an alternative, final remedy. Vehicles in Priority Group 4 include those vehicles with driver side frontal air bag inflators that have received, or will receive, an "interim remedy," meaning they have been, or will be, remedied with a Takata inflator that has been recalled, and will require a second remedy once the final remedy is available.

Once repaired with the interim remedy, these vehicles are at the lowest risk of an inflator rupture because the inflator is new and has not yet been subject to long-term continuous exposure to HAH conditions. Unless specifically added at a later date to a higher Priority Group for re-remedy by their vehicle manufacturer, all remaining vehicles requiring a second, final, remedy of the inflator(s) are included in Priority Group 4​


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

angler said:


> I received my new paper work for the lease extension. It's exactly how they described it. it supersedes my original extension by starting in April. Goes for 12 months with a new Gross Cap Cost which was significantly lower then my buyout from one month ago before my car was recalled. The residual is much lower as well. When i called to confirm about using the 2500 if the car gets fixed I was told that I can use the certificate towards buying my car, or any new or CPO car from BMW. Very satisfied with the outcome. Any question feel free to ask.


What is the new buy out (Residual) compare to the original MSRP? I just wonder is it compatible to a normal 4 years lease residual or as you said: Much better?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Prost said:


> What is the new buy out (Residual) compare to the original MSRP? I just wonder is it compatible to a normal 4 years lease residual or as you said: Much better?


Not clear what you are asking? Do you mean new residual compared to old residual?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> They have a "plan" that's mandated from NHSTA:
> 
> *BMW Specific "Sufficient Supply Timeline"*
> 
> ...


Is this a time line for when they expect the cars to be fixed or when they have to be fixed by?


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

angler said:


> Not clear what you are asking? Do you mean new residual compared to old residual?


For 3 years lease (I think your original lease is) let's say residual is 62%, 4 years lease let say for 50%. Is this new residual from BMWFS better than 50%?

What is the residual value they gave you compare to your purchase price in percentage?


----------



## 2013-135I-M (Apr 13, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> They have a "plan" that's mandated from NHSTA:
> 
> *BMW Specific "Sufficient Supply Timeline"*
> 
> ...


Thanks Michael. This is helpful, but how do I know where my car falls into this priority scheme?

Its a 2013 135i M-Sport Coupe that originated in the Washington DC area and is now in Massachussetts.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Prost said:


> For 3 years lease (I think your original lease is) let's say residual is 62%, 4 years lease let say for 50%. Is this new residual from BMWFS better than 50%?
> 
> What is the residual value they gave you compare to your purchase price in percentage?


Understood, PM me for details.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

angler said:


> Understood, PM me for details.


PM'd :thumbup:


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Prost said:


> PM'd :thumb:


responded :thumbup:


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Reported on the news just now - if Takata cannot prove the rest of the inflators are safe the recall could triple from 28 million to 85 million. :wow:


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

2013-135I-M said:


> Thanks Michael. This is helpful, but how do I know where my car falls into this priority scheme?
> 
> Its a 2013 135i M-Sport Coupe that originated in the Washington DC area and is now in Massachussetts.


I'm not the expert, but I'd say you fall into Priority Group 3


Not 1, although I know it's humid certain months in DC and MA. But you're not on the Gulf Coast and it's a newer model.
Not 2, unless you also have a passenger airbag recall.
Not 4, unless your dealer states they want to put a "like for like" airbag in now and have you come back at another time.

~M~


----------



## 2013-135I-M (Apr 13, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I'm not the expert, but I'd say you fall into Priority Group 3
> 
> 
> Not 1, although I know it's humid certain months in DC and MA. But you're not on the Gulf Coast and it's a newer model.
> ...


Thanks Michael. One more question. What's the difference between "Sufficient Supply Timeline" and "Remedy Completion Target Deadline"?


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Michael,

According to your logic, my 2013 E92 M3 in SoCal will also be group #3?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Prost said:


> Michael,
> 
> According to your logic, my 2013 E92 M3 in SoCal will also be group #3?


If I'm interpreting correctly, yes:

New than 2009
Not in an HAH area
Driver-side Airbag only

~M~


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael - what priority do you think a 2013 E93 in Indiana falls into?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

2013-135I-M said:


> Thanks Michael. One more question. What's the difference between "Sufficient Supply Timeline" and "Remedy Completion Target Deadline"?


It means exactly what it sounds like. "Sufficient supply" is the date the manufacturer is expected to have replacement parts available and "Completion Deadline" is the date the manufacturer is expected to have completed fixing all cars in that priority group.

You might remember that the originally NHTSA-mandated "sufficient supply" date for Priority 1 was March 31, 2016 but BMW was forced to apply for an extension and the NHTSA gave them an extension to August 31, 2016. The problem is that the design of those modules is not something the other manufacturers have been producing lately and since BMW really, really doesn't want to get anything from Takata, they are working with an alternate source but these new modules from this alternate source have to pass extensive testing before they can be approved. That's the delay.

The fallback position, in case you're wondering, would be for BMW to use Takata replacement modules of that design that already exist in stock with Takata but then BMW would recall all of those cars a second time to take out those Takata modules and replace them with an inflator module from a non-Takata source. Want to know why? It's because Takata's modules use stable ammonium nitrate as a propellant, even the newest ones. The more recent ones that Takata has been making include a desiccant that allegedly makes them better than the ones that they used years ago but all those modules Takata would offer BMW as replacements are not the ones with the latest desiccant. They're just fresher versions of the old design.

Think of it this way. Your older BMW would then have the same propellant mixture that all those guys with 2013, 2014, etc. BMWs are being recalled to have replaced. You would be safe for a few years because it takes that long from moisture to affect the ammonium nitrate mixture. But eventually BMW would want to bring your car back for a module without that stuff. Why can't Takata supply your Priority 1 car with the latest technology? Because they stopped making modules in that design and the replacements are just some that are left over. BMW need to get somebody to make that exact design that will work with those older cars and they're working on that right now with "an alternate source."


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Boomer1976 said:


> That is a great deal and BMW definitely stepped up!
> 
> I wish they had something for us that bought these vehicles prior to this fiasco.


+1 I believed we were Effed .


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

I hope everybody understands by now that it's not BMW that determines priorities for scarce replacement modules, it's the NHTSA, and they do it based on their analysis of which cars they think are most at risk. As we all know by know, BMWs are in the lowest risk group and Hondas and Toyotas and a few others are in the highest risk group and that's before we start talking about hot humid climates. What they're looking for is older cars in hot humid climates and then ranking them by which brands have been killing and injuring people the most. And we know who they're talking about, right? 

Remember that Transport Canada said they're not ordering recalls because they have not received any complaints about airbag inflators causing injuries up there.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

I have a feeling we're going to find out who thinks where they live is humid vs where it is truly humid. Chicagoans think it's humid here. I laugh at them. It gets a little humid here a few times during the summer and it lasts 2 - 4 days at a time.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Michael - what priority do you think a 2013 E93 in Indiana falls into?


Again, NHTSA gets to decide, but 1) new model and 2) not in the High Absolute Humidity (HAH) area, so group 3.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

2013-135I-M said:


> Thanks Michael. One more question. What's the difference between "Sufficient Supply Timeline" and "Remedy Completion Target Deadline"?


Ninong nailed it: deadline to have sufficient supply of replacement parts, and time to complete all recalls.

And I moved to Seattle to get away from the MA July/August humidity. GASP!

~M~


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I'm not the expert, but I'd say you fall into Priority Group 3
> 
> 
> Not 1, although I know it's humid certain months in DC and MA. But you're not on the Gulf Coast and it's a newer model.
> ...


I read it differently to you. I think any care with a driverside airbag is 1 or 2 unless it has been recently replaced with another takata inflator, in which case it would be group 4.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

adgrant said:


> I read it differently to you. I think any care with a driverside airbag is 1 or 2 unless it has been recently replaced with another takata inflator, in which case it would be group 4.


Always good to have a second set of eyes. After reading Group 3 10 times, I finally stopped reading "driver side airbags" and started seeing it says "passenger". D'oh.

So yes, recent models, no HAH area probably group 2

~M~


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Does anyone know what the other manufacturers are doing for these recalls? Something similar like BMW with the loaner/rental or not?


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

So, in order to pursue getting a "loaner" car (dealer car or rental) is it best to contact BMWNA first (email, phone?) or just go ahead and contact a dealership?


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

Based on the priority...seems like my '13 x1 35i with driver side airbag in Florida is a priority 2.

Glad i got my new loaner car for the next year or so.

So has BMW thought about the difference in maintenance of a car that is parked for prolonged period of time and an extension of our 4 year warranty based on our inability to drive our cars?

Perhaps i need to contract BMWNA with these questions...


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

tturedraider said:


> So, in order to pursue getting a "loaner" car (dealer car or rental) is it best to contact BMWNA first (email, phone?) or just go ahead and contact a dealership?


When i did this a couple of weeks ago, i went directly to BMWNA and came out knowing more than the dealer. I knew what to ask for.

I think since then BMWNA had gotten bulletins out to the dealers...go directly to the service manager, not your SA.

Good luck. I got 2016 528 with less that 8,000 miles to drive for the next year or so.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

angler said:


> I received my new paper work for the lease extension. It's exactly how they described it. it supersedes my original extension by starting in April. Goes for 12 months with a new Gross Cap Cost which was significantly lower then my buyout from one month ago before my car was recalled. The residual is much lower as well. When i called to confirm about using the 2500 if the car gets fixed I was told that I can use the certificate towards buying my car, or any new or CPO car from BMW. Very satisfied with the outcome. Any question feel free to ask.


I just called and it's basically the same deal (12 months extension with $150 reduction of monthly payment and $2500 voucher toward purchase of the original vehicle or new BMW once the car is fixed), but they don't have the update residual yet, they will send to me by next week. Finger cross!


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Michael or Ninong or someone who knows, could you post some clarification on what areas BMW or NTHSA is officially considering High Absolute Humidity areas for the purpose of placing vehicles into the categories? Thanks!


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

tturedraider said:


> Michael or Ninong or someone who knows, could you post some clarification on what areas BMW or NTHSA is officially considering High Absolute Humidity areas for the purpose of placing vehicles into the categories? Thanks!


All States below the belt. Specially the Gulf States.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tturedraider said:


> So, in order to pursue getting a "loaner" car (dealer car or rental) is it best to contact BMWNA first (email, phone?) or just go ahead and contact a dealership?


No, you never contact BMWNA unless you have a serious issue with your dealership that is not being handled to your satisfaction. That is true in every situation.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tturedraider said:


> Michael or Ninong or someone who knows, could you post some clarification on what areas BMW or NTHSA is officially considering High Absolute Humidity areas for the purpose of placing vehicles into the categories? Thanks!


The states bordering the Gulf of Mexico, plus Georgia and South Carolina. In addition, Puerto Rico and Guam. Cars located in those states should be repaired before cars in other areas. And older cars come before newer cars. That's the general rule of thumb.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> No, you never contact BMWNA unless you have a serious issue with your dealership that is not being handled to your satisfaction. That is true in every situation.


When we went to the dealer the first time (last Saturday) they told us we needed to call BMWNA and open an incident report with them.


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

*BMW Models by Priority Group*
The NHTSA has released a list of BMWs affected by Priority Group. The NHTSA has let BMW and other manufacturers define their own area of high absolute humidity (HAH) so expect variations between manufacturers. The NHTSA is mandating that all vehicles originally sold or ever registered in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Saipan and the US Virgin Islands be considered HAH vehicles. Non-HAH means any vehicle that has not been identified by the vehicle manufacture as having been originally sold or ever registered in the HAHA regions, as defined by the vehicle manufacturer.

*BMW Priority Group 1*

2002 - 2006 BMW 3 Series, M3 in HAH areas

*BMW Priority Group 2*

2000 - 2001 BMW 3 Series in HAH areas
2002 - 2006 BMW 3 Series in non-HAH areas
2002 - 2003 BMW 5 Series in HAH and non-HAH areas
2003 - 2004 BMW X5 in HAH and non-HAH areas

*BMW Priority Group 3*

2000 - 2001 BMW 3 Series in non-HAH areas

*BMW Priority Group 4*

All other BMWs? The NHTSA doc is not clear on this


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

tim330i said:


> *BMW Models by Priority Group*


Thanks for re-posting ... saved me some time!

~M~


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

If you're wondering how this happened read the full back story of Takata airbag crisis from the US Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation here.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> It's a 2015 Passat TDI? From a VW dealer or a used car dealer or an individual? When is it due for it's next smog, or did it just get smogged? I'm curious if CARB is agreeing to smog any of the VW diesels that haven't been "fixed" yet??
> 
> I believe VW and the EPA have been given a drop-date of later this month by the judge to arrive at an agreement on what to do to fix the VW diesels involved in the Dieselgate scandal but I'm not sure if VW's Stop-Sale order extended to used cars or whether it was just unsold new cars in dealer inventory.
> 
> ...


This is a Enterprise Passat. It's a 2015, and my bad, this is a gasoline engine. 
http://volkswagenforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php?vin=1VWAT7A33FC033916

Enterprise said that every month they will call us to get the mileage off of the car and advise us of needed service. At that point we can drop the car off and either wait or pick up something else. At our option we can also bring the car to certain shops that have direct billing with Enterprise and they'll perform the service for us.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

Ninong said:


> No, you never contact BMWNA unless you have a serious issue with your dealership that is not being handled to your satisfaction. That is true in every situation.


I have never done this for serious issues, unless it is something minor service relayed to a specific dealer.

You can go to any dealer to get issues resolved, not just your local dealer or the one you bought the car from.

This statement sounds like it comes from a BMW dealer employee.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> When we went to the dealer the first time (last Saturday) they told us we needed to call BMWNA and open an incident report with them.


An "incident report" would mean that you have an issue with the dealer that the dealer cannot, or will not, handle on his own. I have never heard of a dealer passing the buck to BMWNA on anything. Usually it's the other way around. You call BMWNA and they pass the buck back to the dealer by telling you to talk to the dealer.

Apparently your issue was one that the dealer would not or could not resolve to your satisfaction and the dealer felt that he had offered you all that he was authorized to offer you and for some reason he chose to advise you to open an "incident report." To me that sounds ridiculous on the dealer's part. He is simply saying that if you're not happy with what he's telling you, then take it up with the manufacturer because that's as far as he's going.

If you provide more details to explain why he would tell you something like that, it would help the discussion. I still can't believe that would be what BMWNA recommends.

Thanks.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

tim330i said:


> *BMW Models by Priority Group*
> The NHTSA has released a list of BMWs affected by Priority Group. The NHTSA has let BMW and other manufacturers define their own area of high absolute humidity (HAH) so expect variations between manufacturers. The NHTSA is mandating that all vehicles originally sold or ever registered in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Saipan and the US Virgin Islands be considered HAH vehicles. Non-HAH means any vehicle that has not been identified by the vehicle manufacture as having been originally sold or ever registered in the HAHA regions, as defined by the vehicle manufacturer.
> 
> *BMW Priority Group 1*
> ...


Wow...sounds like for the late model units...it will be a long time coming


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> This is a Enterprise Passat. It's a 2015, and my bad, this is a gasoline engine.
> http://volkswagenforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php?vin=1VWAT7A33FC033916
> 
> Enterprise said that every month they will call us to get the mileage off of the car and advise us of needed service. At that point we can drop the car off and either wait or pick up something else. At our option we can also bring the car to certain shops that have direct billing with Enterprise and they'll perform the service for us.


Oh, okay. At first I thought you meant your wife bought one of those.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

tim330i said:


> *BMW Models by Priority Group*
> The NHTSA has released a list of BMWs affected by Priority Group. The NHTSA has let BMW and other manufacturers define their own area of high absolute humidity (HAH) so expect variations between manufacturers. The NHTSA is mandating that all vehicles originally sold or ever registered in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Saipan and the US Virgin Islands be considered HAH vehicles. Non-HAH means any vehicle that has not been identified by the vehicle manufacture as having been originally sold or ever registered in the HAHA regions, as defined by the vehicle manufacturer.
> 
> *BMW Priority Group 1*
> ...





Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Thanks for re-posting ... saved me some time!
> 
> ~M~


+1, thanks - so that puts my car squarely in priority 1, 2006 3er, driver airbag, Georgia and Texas.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Update on my case:

called BMWNA yesterday. After being on hold for some time we spoke to a lady who was eager to get us off the phone. The following is the conversation, briefed.

Q. Are we to continue making the payments on our financed car as we were or is BMWNA going to provide some relief on the matter?
A. No additional relief, unless you are willing to move to a newer car with the incentives provided to the dealers. 

Q. Dealer told us nothing about these incentives. Do you know what those are?
A. No, you have to speak to the dealer about those.

Q. Can i continue to pay my insurance on the car even though i'm not driving it and it's sitting on the dealer's lot?
A. You can ask the dealer that question.

Q. We did and they told us to call BMWNA for answers. What should we do?
A. The dealer should know the answer, I don't know why they wouldn't tell you this information.

Q. We have tried to work with the dealer, we have called and left several messages prior to us driving there this past weekend. Isn't there anything BMWNA can do to answer some of these questions the dealer can't?
A. I will have one of our managers contact you and we will have the dealer contact you as well with regards to the questions you have about insurance and incentives.

Q. What about car deterioration while it's sitting on the dealer's lot?
A. You will have to take that up with the dealer and if there are to be any issues after you pick up the car, as with others, we will deal with it on a case by case basis. 

That was it, a 25 minute conversation summed up in 10 lines... 
At some point during the conversation she said, verbatim "BMW feels the car is safe to drive"


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

L-F-C said:


> Update on my case:
> 
> called BMWNA yesterday. After being on hold for some time we spoke to a lady who was eager to get us off the phone. The following is the conversation, briefed.
> 
> ...


Sounds like they are still clueless on some of the answers. I called this morning for my lease extension and ask the question of how long after I ended the lease extension can I use my $2500 voucher (like if I order another BMW/ED and it will arrive/pickup after few months, can I use that voucher?), she is basically silence for few seconds until I said: "You probably dunno the answer yet huh!?"...

A lot of these will need to talk to manager directly or wait for couple weeks...or months!


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm confused. Is the priority this:


tim330i said:


> *BMW Models by Priority Group*
> The NHTSA has released a list of BMWs affected by Priority Group. The NHTSA has let BMW and other manufacturers define their own area of high absolute humidity (HAH) so expect variations between manufacturers. The NHTSA is mandating that all vehicles originally sold or ever registered in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Saipan and the US Virgin Islands be considered HAH vehicles. Non-HAH means any vehicle that has not been identified by the vehicle manufacture as having been originally sold or ever registered in the HAHA regions, as defined by the vehicle manufacturer.
> 
> *BMW Priority Group 1*
> ...


or this:


Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> They have a "plan" that's mandated from NHSTA:
> 
> *BMW Specific "Sufficient Supply Timeline"*
> 
> ...


???


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

MRCW said:


> Wow...sounds like for the late model units...it will be a long time coming


Keep in mind that this detail list came out November 3, 2015. I've not seen an updated Priority List.

~M~


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Oh, okay. At first I thought you meant your wife bought one of those.


Oh god no!

Though, when we were looking at convertibles to buy, the VW model EOS did get a brief consideration but was quickly eliminated because of its boring interior. The Volvo C70 was eliminated for the same reason.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> Update on my case:
> 
> called BMWNA yesterday. After being on hold for some time we spoke to a lady who was eager to get us off the phone. The following is the conversation, briefed.
> 
> ...


Every one of her answers was absolutely correct and predictable. Every one of your questions have been answered in this thread previously but you're not satisfied with the answers. That's fine. I understand that, but it won't change the answers.

If you have questions about the incentives that are available to the dealer to help you get into a new car, you have to see the dealer. Why? Because BMWNA doesn't control the selling price, the dealer does. And because BMW can only "offer" assistance to the dealer. BMWNA cannot answer that question for it, only the dealer can.

If you are on a lease that expires before the end of this year, BMWFS will waive your remaining payments. If you are not on a BMWFS lease, you can trade in your recalled car now and BMWNA has offered the dealer certain cash incentives, that vary by model, to assist him in making a deal with you. Does that mean you will be thrilled with the deal? I don't know, that's up to you. Do you think the dealer will be thrilled with this idea of taking in a car that he can't sell before he fixes it and the parts are not available to fix it? How do you appraise a car like that? That's the problem.

If you have a recalled BMW and you, for whatever reason, think you feel too unsafe driving it and want alternate transportation, then you have to see a BMW dealer to ask about that. Depending on the year of your car (2012 and newer or 2011 and older) and depending on availability of loaners, you may be offered a loaner (or maybe not). Or you may be offered a rental car. Through Hertz or Enterprise. Will you like the rental car as much as your BMW? Probably not! ALL of your questions about this process are the responsibility of the dealer to answer.

If you don't like the answers your dealer is giving you, then just post them on here and if Michael doesn't see them and answer you, I will try to get the answer if I don't already know it. If I don't know something, I have to call somebody who is very busy and doesn't have time for my pesky questions. 

Yes, I think your BMW is extremely safe to drive. I have explained that in detail previously in this thread and people get upset when I post the reasons why, so you will have to scroll back to my previous responses to learn why I think that.

I think the idea of exchanging a late model BMW for some Enterprise rental car is ridiculous and totally unnecessary. I think that the market will adjust back to normal within the next 12 months or so because I think BMW will have come up with replacement parts by then. This assumes the NHTSA does not add an additional 70-90 million cars to its recall list. So far it looks like the NHTSA will not do that.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> An "incident report" would mean that you have an issue with the dealer that the dealer cannot, or will not, handle on his own. I have never heard of a dealer passing the buck to BMWNA on anything. Usually it's the other way around. You call BMWNA and they pass the buck back to the dealer by telling you to talk to the dealer.
> 
> Apparently your issue was one that the dealer would not or could not resolve to your satisfaction and the dealer felt that he had offered you all that he was authorized to offer you and for some reason he chose to advise you to open an "incident report." To me that sounds ridiculous on the dealer's part. He is simply saying that if you're not happy with what he's telling you, then take it up with the manufacturer because that's as far as he's going.
> 
> ...


I don't know why the guy would tell us something like that. He claimed to know everything about the recall and what BMW intends to do about it because he had just returned from some conference on the matter. But the more we spoke to him the more it became evident that he had no clue. He knew the outlines but not the details. When we returned back on Monday, they had already called BMWNA and given them our information so no action was needed from us. 
I think this is still new to these guys, and since we were the very first to drop off the car at that dealership, in both meetings Saturday and Monday they admitted to the massive amount of gray areas they're facing. Still, this is no excuse, at the very least they should be proactive in seeking information and clarification from BMWNA.

I posted this earlier but i did't get a reply yet, I wonder if anyone knows how the other car makers are dealing with this issue. I wondered to the MB forums yesterday, no info about it other than the info about the recall. Will wonder around some more...


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

L-F-C, I PM'd you =)


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> Sounds like they are still clueless on some of the answers. I called this morning for my lease extension and ask the question of how long after I ended the lease extension can I use my $2500 voucher (like if I order another BMW/ED and it will arrive/pickup after few months, can I use that voucher?), she is basically silence for few seconds until I said: "You probably dunno the answer yet huh!?"...
> 
> A lot of these will need to talk to manager directly or wait for couple weeks...or months!


Okay, I'll answer that question for you without even knowing the answer, just based on the way they operate. The $2,500 voucher is intended to be used on a new or CPO BMW to assist you in getting out of your present BMWFS contract. They always agree to extend any BMWFS lease for you if you have ordered a car that won't be here in time when your lease expires. All you have to do is give them a production number. That will get you a 90-day extension. If your car is still not here because you ordered Individual paint or because they ran out of CFRP tops, or whatever, just call them up for another 90-day extension. They always agree to a total of six months of extensions for a car that has been ordered but is delayed.

So that answers that question. An extension that you have already been given by BMWFS simply means that your lease now has a new expiration date. Go right ahead and order whatever is your heart's desire and if it's not here by the expiration of your least, just give them the production number and ask for an extension. 

For them to do otherwise would mean breaking their longstanding policy of granting extensions to leases if there is a new car on order. On the other hand, if you're asking if you can simply put the $2,500 voucher in the sock drawer and pull it out six months down the road if you think you're interested in a new BMW, then the answer is almost certainly "No."


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

L-F-C said:


> Update on my case:
> 
> called BMWNA yesterday. After being on hold for some time we spoke to a lady who was eager to get us off the phone. The following is the conversation, briefed.
> 
> ...


There's not going to be any significant deterioration. My car sat in front of my parents' house for a year when I was stationed in Korea. I think my dad started it and ran it for a few minutes once a month. If my car ends up at the dealer I'm planning to drive there once a month and do that myself.

BMW is providing you with a "replacement" car. You'll have to keep making your payments.

You need to keep your car insured. It's required under your loan terms and it's that insurance liability coverage that would cover damages if they happen to your "loaner" car.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Every one of her answers was absolutely correct and predictable. Every one of your questions have been answered in this thread previously but you're not satisfied with the answers. That's fine. I understand that, but it won't change the answers.
> 
> If you have questions about the incentives that are available to the dealer to help you get into a new car, you have to see the dealer. Why? Because BMWNA doesn't control the selling price, the dealer does. And because BMW can only "offer" assistance to the dealer. BMWNA cannot answer that question for it, only the dealer can.
> 
> ...


Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate all your answers and I know you're correct, but I was kinda hoping that we would get some more "help" from the owner of the issue themselves.

I do think our BMW is safe to drive, but in the off chance that we're involved in a crash, then this becomes a number's game and that number is pretty much 50/50. If we were driving mainly on weekends or quick commutes to the train station (2 miles away) then we might not be too worried about it. However, Mrs L-F-C drives to school 3-4 times a week, and that's a 30 mile trip each way, in Bay Area traffic in both city (SF) and highway (24, 80, Bay Bridge). The probability of a crash is much higher with each mile driven. I posted before about the accident she had that nearly took out her eye. It's because of these things that we simply don't want to take any chances. 
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who don't have the same level of paranoia, just like i'm sure there are plenty of others who have a higher level of paranoia. We're just humans after all. 
Part of the issue is the incompetence of the dealer in taking charge of this matter and BMW's clear and cut policy. I understand it's unchartered territory for the dealer, and possibly for BMW as well but there are things that need to be addressed and so far they haven't given us anything that resembles a satisfactory answer. These are genuine concerns and I think BMW should have thought about these issues while they were putting together their plan.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> I understand the statistics. But these are the deaths. The injuries not resulting in a death are nearly 200 and while that's not a big number either, it's big enough to worry us. We love our BMW but we love our lives a whole lot more.


There have been 11 deaths worldwide so far. Ten of them were in older Hondas and one of them was in a 10-year-old Ford Ranger pickup that ran into a cow in South Carolina.

BMW has received *zero* reports of any incidents involving injuries anywhere in the world over the past 10 years caused by the malfunction of a Takata airbag inflator in any of their cars. Mercedes-Benz has made a similar statement.

Your greatest chance of an airbag inflator module malfunction would be if you're driving an older model (meaning 10 years old) Honda and even then your odds would be 1 out of 46 that your airbag might be defective. That was the highest failure rate tested. That rate does not apply to the modules used in BMWs.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> I did ask when I called this morning, but the rep said she doesn't know the answer...and I agreed on the 12 months extension re-lease program, just waiting for the paperwork to be mail to me soon...


Okay, here's the answer. If you agree to sign a new 12-month lease extension it will probably be better than you expected, plus you will also receive a "loyalty certificate" in the amount of $2,500 good on the purchase or lease of your next BMW. Ask them if you can use it on an ordered car and if you can use it on a European Delivery because the program simply states the purchase or lease of your next BMW. To me that would mean immediately following the expiration of this extension. By the way, you have an option to terminate this extension once your car is fixed. That's your option. They can't force you out of anything you already have a signed copy of.

BMWFS has a long-standing policy of extending leases if the customer can provide them with a production number of an ordered car.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Just to be clear, if you lease a recall car, and are within 60 days of maturity, your only options are
> 
> wait it out, drive it, then turn it in
> 
> ...


Michael,

There is always a trade-in option for leases and that is exactly what the client advisor, the dealer and BMWFS would love for the customer to do. I didn't say the customer would like the trade-in option, only that they (the dealer and BMWFS) would love for the customer to decide to trade in his car now instead of costing them a ton of money in rentals.



P.S. -- And it doesn't matter if the car is on recall or not. You can always terminate a lease early. That's the law for closed-end leases. You may not like the payoff but you can still terminate it.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> There have been 11 deaths worldwide so far. Ten of them were in older Hondas and one of them was in a 10-year-old Ford Ranger pickup that ran into a cow in South Carolina.
> 
> BMW has received *zero* reports of any incidents involving injuries anywhere in the world over the past 10 years caused by the malfunction of a Takata airbag inflator in any of their cars. Mercedes-Benz has made a similar statement.
> 
> Your greatest chance of an airbag inflator module malfunction would be if you're driving an older model (meaning 10 years old) Honda and even then your odds would be 1 out of 46 that your airbag might be defective. That was the highest failure rate tested. That rate does not apply to the modules used in BMWs.


I am aware of the number of deaths. What i was pointing to earlier is the number of injuries, not deaths, resulting from airbag failure. These are the lucky ones who escaped with a high hospital bill vs a hearse bill. Like you've posted before, there was a coverup by both Toyota and Honda on this issue. Since the number of actual non death resulting injuries from the Takata airbags is still not known for certain (hence my "nearly 200" statement which i saw written somewhere) the probability of failure could be higher. And while I understand statistics, when you're behind the possibly exploding wheel those statistics drop to "either it explodes or it doesn't." Granted, no one can think that quickly right before the crash. We might be too frozen stiff in body and numb in mind. Bottom line, I understand why people feel uneasy driving these cars... I do too.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Ninong said:


> Okay, here's the answer. If you agree to sign a new 12-month lease extension it will probably be better than you expected, plus you will also receive a "loyalty certificate" in the amount of $2,500 good on the purchase or lease of your next BMW. Ask them if you can use it on an ordered car and if you can use it on a European Delivery because the program simply states the purchase or lease of your next BMW. To me that would mean immediately following the expiration of this extension. By the way, you have an option to terminate this extension once your car is fixed. That's your option. They can't force you out of anything you already have a signed copy of.
> 
> BMWFS has a long-standing policy of extending leases if the customer can provide them with a production number of an ordered car.


I guess I will ask the same question after a few months, they have no clue of it yet per my conversation this morning.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> I am aware of the number of deaths. What i was pointing to earlier is the number of injuries, not deaths, resulting from airbag failure. These are the lucky ones who escaped a high hospital bill vs a hearse bill. Like you've posted before, there was a coverup by both Toyota and Honda on this issue. Since the number of actual non death resulting injuries from the Takata airbags is still not known for certain (hence my "nearly 200" statement which i saw written somewhere) the probability of failure could be higher. And while I understand statistics, when you're behind the possibly exploding wheel those statistics drop to "either it explodes or it doesn't." Granted, no one can think that quickly right before the crash. We might be too frozen stiff in body and numb in mind. Bottom line, I understand why people feel uneasy driving these cars... I do too.


Okay, if you prefer to use statistics based on deaths and injuries, then here are the numbers: 11 fatalities and 139 incidents involving injuries out of 287 million Takata airbags on the road worldwide. If we use your total of 200 injuries and/or deaths, then that works out to 1 out of 1,435,000 cars on the road today. Obviously not all of those cars will be involved in front-end collisions, which is why it's better to use the test results from testing those 30,000+ airbags known to have been the same type as those involved in reported injuries and deaths.

Based on those tests, it is safe to assume that people driving older Hondas are at the greatest risk, especially if they live in South Florida, where many of those airbags came from. Their odds are 1 in 46 that their airbag might be defective. For BMW owners who live in hot high humidity areas and are driving older cars (more than 8 years old), their chances are 1 in 1,429 that their deployed driver's-side airbag might be defective.

If they live in Canada or Germany or lots of other places, their actual odds may be zero if there have been no reported incidents in those countries. Transport Canada says they have no reported failures there. They cause of the failure is the absorption of moisture by the ammonium nitrate propellant over a period of several years or more in areas with hot humid climates.


----------



## neuro0 (May 14, 2013)

Are all dealers required to take the car back if I want to take advantage of the The Customer Confidence Lease Termination Benefit Program? Or this is some sort of option for the dealer? I am thinking about return the car to a local dealer since I ordered my new car through a sponsor here for PCD.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Okay, if you prefer to use statistics based on deaths and injuries, then here are the numbers: 11 fatalities and 139 incidents involving injuries out of 287 million Takata airbags on the road worldwide. If we use your total of 200 injuries and/or deaths, then that works out to 1 out of 1,435,000 cars on the road today. Obviously not all of those cars will be involved in front-end collisions, which is why it's better to use the test results from testing those 30,000+ airbags known to have been the same type as those involved in reported injuries and deaths.
> 
> Based on those tests, it is safe to assume that people driving older Hondas are at the greatest risk, especially if they live in South Florida, where many of those airbags came from. Their odds are 1 in 46 that their airbag might be defective. For BMW owners who live in hot high humidity areas and are driving older cars (more than 8 years old), their chances are 1 in 1,429 that their deployed driver's-side airbag might be defective.
> 
> If they live in Canada or Germany or lots of other places, their actual odds may be zero if there have been no reported incidents in those countries. Transport Canada says they have no reported failures there. They cause of the failure is the absorption of moisture by the ammonium nitrate propellant over a period of several years or more in areas with hot humid climates.


Though I enjoy a good debate like this, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. While I understand the numbers, none of the victims (living or otherwise) thought they were going to suffer from the recall or knew about the recall. Cars crash all the time. During my years of driving I've been involved in 4 accidents and never had an airbag deployed. We all assume the risk of a crash while driving, but what I don't want to assume is the risk being increased by the very device that's meant to save our lives. 
You recall the Asiana crash in SFO a few years ago? I flew Asiana to China and back a few months later. i assumed the risk because I read a bunch of reviews of flyers noting how careful the pilots were in landing in SFO (and elsewhere too) after the crash. I experienced something similar. There was a bit of wind and a few clouds when we were about to land in SFO. The pilot came on and informed us about the weather conditions and assured the us that he would land when safe to do so. He made a few circles around the airport, about half a hour's worth, then landed very smoothly. 
In contrast, months after the MH370, Malaysian flew their MH17 right into a warzone. That's carelessness. 
I applaud BMW for what they're doing. I just wish they would have thought of the gray areas in their plan as well.

On a separate note, what would be nice to have is actual field data about all the cars involved in the recall that had a crash with a deployed airbag that didn't injure/kill them. I'd say the rate of failure would probably be different.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Michael,
> 
> There is always a trade-in option for leases and that is exactly what the client advisor, the dealer and BMWFS would love for the customer to do. I didn't say the customer would like the trade-in option, only that they (the dealer and BMWFS) would love for the customer to decide to trade in his car now instead of costing them a ton of money in rentals.
> 
> P.S. -- And it doesn't matter if the car is on recall or not. You can always terminate a lease early. That's the law for closed-end leases. You may not like the payoff but you can still terminate it.


I'm only trying to make clear that for people with recall vehicles, BMWNA and BMWFS have specific resolution options. If you lease a recall car, and want to "trade it in," *you will not get any program benefit*. No trade in benefit, no $2,500 certificate, nothing.

You will get the actual cash value on your leased vehicle based on the current market, and your payoff on the lease will be unaffected by the recall. It will be the contractual residual.

So, yes, legally you can terminate the lease by trading it in, but there are no benefits to help make it a good idea in the current recall context.

The less confusion the better, I think.

~M~


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

When I spoke to BMWFS on two separate occasions this week they told me that you can use the 2500.00 if your stay in the lease for the 12 months, car needs to be fixed. If that happens you can use the 2500 to purchase your car you are currently leasing, CPO car or a new car from dealer lot or order it.


----------



## neuro0 (May 14, 2013)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I'm only trying to make clear that for people with recall vehicles, BMWNA and BMWFS have specific resolution options. If you lease a recall car, and want to "trade it in," *you will not get any program benefit*. No trade in benefit, no $2,500 certificate, nothing.
> 
> You will get the actual cash value on your leased vehicle based on the current market, and your payoff on the lease will be unaffected by the recall. It will be the contractual residual.
> 
> ...


But I can still return the lease car early with the rest of the payments waived if my maturity date is within this year and I have a car on order. Is this correct?


----------



## mike814 (Dec 2, 2014)

neuro0 said:


> But I can still return the lease car early with the rest of the payments waived if my maturity date is within this year and I have a car on order. Is this correct?


My dealer told me that I could turn in my lease early with payments waived if I leased or financed a new vehicle and my current lease is up by 12/31/16.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

angler said:


> When I spoke to BMWFS on two separate occasions this week they told me that you can use the 2500.00 if your stay in the lease for the 12 months, car needs to be fixed. If that happens you can use the 2500 to purchase your car you are currently leasing, CPO car or a new car from dealer lot or order it.


The one thing in there that I don't think was actually spelled out in their most recent program is the part about the $2,500 Loyalty Certificate being okay to apply toward an ordered car. I'm not saying you can't just that it wasn't covered and because all of their earlier programs were geared toward getting you to take something out of dealer inventory but that was back when the longest lease extension they offered was 60 days, as I know you remember well. However, previously they said "out of dealer inventory" and now that language is gone. 

In summary, you have to be within 60 days of the expiration of your current lease. You have to have a recall notice on your car. You have to tell them you want to keep driving your car and not turn it in because maybe you'll buy it later. You have to sign a new 12-month lease agreement (extension) that may even have better terms than you expected. That's when you qualify for the $2,500 certificate that is good toward the purchase of your present car (once it is fixed) or "usable on next BMW purchase or lease." If you read that part in quotes, it is definitely open to including an ordered car and maybe even a European Delivery since they don't specifically exclude that. ??


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mike814 said:


> My dealer told me that I could turn in my lease early with payments waived if I leased or financed a new vehicle and my current lease is up by 12/31/16.


That's correct. If you received a recall notice on our car and if your lease expires before the end of 2016, you can turn it in now and BMWFS will waive all of your remaining lease payments (maximum of 9). I'm sure you would owe for excess wear and tear and/or excess miles but not a disposition fee. All of that assumes you're financing or leasing a new or (I assume) CPO BMW. It will cost them less to forgive your remaining lease payments than what it would cost them to pay for a rental car for you.

Then you have to negotiate a deal on the new car with your dealer.


----------



## twssas (Nov 4, 2006)

I have a 2011 X5 diesel,(thats paid for) and was planning this year on getting a new one. Guess, that is on hold now until I can get this airbag replaced. Live in Alabama, and vehicle, has always been registered in Alabama (high humidity area as I understand it), but, not really clear about which priority group this vehicle resides in. Could be anywhere from 1-2 years from now before resolution.

Does anyone to this point have any experience on a trade in? Wondering if BMW has any program yet that minimizes the "hit" (causing diminished value) that the airbag issue is causing? To this point it seems that most of the discussion is about leases, potential extensions, etc, but not much discussion about those who actually own the vehicle, and their specific options. (other that maybe a Enterprise lease).

I did a search on CarMax, and they are still selling the affected E70's and probably the other vehicles targeted for recall(although I did not look them up). Guess I could always try to sell my vehicle to CarMax, but of course, would rather have the airbag resolution. Really dont want to wait potentially 1-2 more years before I can trade (without taking a beating), but seem to be really stuck in a catch 22.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

2016 BMW 7 Series Recalled, Stop-Sale Initiated for Airbag Defect made by Continental not Takata

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2016-bmw-7-series-recalled-stop-sale-initiated-airbag-defect/


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

*Update from NHTSA*

UPDATE 4/14/2016, 11:00 a.m.: NHTSA has stated that there are 85 million Takata airbag inflators in the United States that haven't been recalled at this point. Of that 85 million, 43.4 million are passenger-side inflators, 26.9 million are for side airbags, and 14.5 million are installed in steering wheels. Takata "has until 2019 to demonstrate that all of the unrecalled airbag inflators are safe," according to Automotive News, which counts 28.8 million airbags as being recalled at this point.


----------



## mike814 (Dec 2, 2014)

Ninong said:


> That's correct. If you received a recall notice on our car and if your lease expires before the end of 2016, you can turn it in now and BMWFS will waive all of your remaining lease payments (maximum of 9). I'm sure you would owe for excess wear and tear and/or excess miles but not a disposition fee. All of that assumes you're financing or leasing a new or (I assume) CPO BMW. It will cost them less to forgive your remaining lease payments than what it would cost them to pay for a rental car for you.
> 
> Then you have to negotiate a deal on the new car with your dealer.


Exactly, although, BMWFS seems to also have a mileage credit, albeit very minor (like $250) for being under mileage, which offsets any wear and tear.


----------



## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Quatro40 said:


> 2016 BMW 7 Series Recalled, Stop-Sale Initiated for Airbag Defect made by Continental not Takata
> 
> http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2016-bmw-7-series-recalled-stop-sale-initiated-airbag-defect/


Saw this on the news yesterday. But it's kind of old news. Posted in the 7er forum on March 21st. The real "news" is replacement parts are already on the way.


----------



## njlou (Nov 12, 2009)

tturedraider said:


> Saw this on the news yesterday. But it's kind of old news. Posted in the 7er forum on March 21st. The real "news" is replacement parts are already on the way.


This doesn't seem too bad. It is not nearly as bad as the takata recall. at least you will be warned, and parts are available!!

With the Takata, looks like a lot of 3rd worlders will be driving BMWs with disconnected airbags.:thumbdwn:


----------



## Caesonia (Mar 16, 2014)

Face128i said:


> The whole thing. How can they partner with other manufacturers (as stated earlier in this thread) to remove the possibility of selling a car through their channels?
> 
> I'm no attorney but it sounds an awful lot like price-fixing.


rarely do I defend large corporations, especially the Japanese ( yeah they always make great cars...hah) but this does not really come across as price fixing. Unfortunately, given the number of vehicles, and the temporary suspension, it does have an impact in the market. I am sorry you have experienced this, it's all disgusted me. Mainly because its te truth about the mad race to the bottom in manufacturing as a way for short term profits, and only proves my thesis and white papers written 10 years ago:

Companies that have to go to cheap labour countries to compete are actually circling the drain and not well run.


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

MRCW said:


> BMW has a huge problem and generally BMW purchasers have more means to get things worked out.
> I for one will refuse to let BMW dictate terms to me for a screw up that they are responsible for.


Be sure you let us know how that works out for you.


----------



## justinnum1 (Nov 22, 2011)

if your car is affected, would have been notified by now? a family member of mine has to turn in their 3 series next month, hopefully she can take advantage of this 2500 cap cost on new lease.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Caesonia said:


> rarely do I defend large corporations, especially the Japanese ( yeah they always make great cars...hah) but this does not really come across as price fixing. Unfortunately, given the number of vehicles, and the temporary suspension, it does have an impact in the market. I am sorry you have experienced this, it's all disgusted me. Mainly because its te truth about the mad race to the bottom in manufacturing as a way for short term profits, and only proves my thesis and white papers written 10 years ago:
> 
> Companies that have to go to cheap labour countries to compete are actually circling the drain and not well run.


The situation, as I understand it, is as follows. The parts supplier (Takata) and the manufacturer (any of 14 different major brands affected) are required by law to notify the NHTSA if their experience and/or testing indicates a potential safety defect. Both may issue a voluntary recall if they believe it is warranted. However, it's up to the NHTSA to evaluate the situation and place the affected cars on its recall list. At that point, the law requires the dealers to immediately take appropriate measures to safeguard their customers. The expected action would be a voluntary recall.

The law makes the manufacturer solely responsible for supervising the correct repair procedures to follow and the correct parts to use. That's why if CarMax really wanted to get all of their used cars repaired free of charge by the manufacturer if there are any open recalls, all they would have to do is bring them to one of the manufacturer's dealers to have them fixed. Their policy is to not check for open recalls. The law does not apply to used cars, only new cars. The manufacturer can only issue a Stop-Sale order on a new car. It is perfectly legal for a used car dealer to sell a used car with an open safety recall without notifying the buyer. The policy at CarMax is that they advise all of their customers on delivery to register their cars with the manufacturer in order to be informed of any recalls. It is perfectly legal for a rental car company to rent you a car with an unrepaired safety defect. In fact, one of the fatalities in a Honda Civic involved a car that was rented in spite of having a Takata airbag recall notice on it for six years at the time it was rented.

However, if we're talking about a CPO (Certified Pre-Owned) used car, the manufacturer can force the dealer to not sell those because the manufacturer is backing them. Other used cars (meaning non-CPO) can be sold because they are not covered by present law. However, BMW has made it extremely clear to dealers that if they sell any used car (meaning non-CPO) that has an unrepaired Takata airbag, the dealer will assume complete liability for it. That has worked to prevent almost all BMW dealers from offering any used cars for sale if they have a recall notice on them.

However, AutoNation reversed their advertised policy of never selling a car with an unrepaired safety recall, and now run many of those through the auction -- all brands. They bragged about their policy of always having all open recalls repaired before selling a used car, then only a few weeks later they quietly began violating that policy by running cars with open recalls through the auction if the parts are not available and may not be available for months. They started doing that in December 2015. What they are doing is sticking a large notice to the inside of the windshield on the passenger's side notifying potential buyers that the car has an open, unrepaired safety recall notice and that the buyer assumes all responsibility for it. The CEO of AutoNation was asked about that in an interview earlier this month and admitted they were doing that if parts were not available to perform the repairs. He said they simply had no space to keep all those cars for months on end. The manufacturers, especially BMW and Mercedes, offer their dealers generous monthly depreciation and storage payments on each unrepaired car they take in but some dealers just can't afford the storage expense, especially if they're located in an expensive city.

I'm not an attorney but, in my experience, attorneys usually name everyone they can think of, especially those with the deepest pockets, when the issue involves serious injuries or fatalities. I just don't see why anyone would expect anything different in this sort of situation.

I should add that if the manufacturer fails to issue a voluntary recall, the NHTSA could go to court -- with sufficient evidence on hand -- to get a court order requiring the manufacturer to do so. Right now the NHTSA is still conducting an investigation -- demanded by a couple of U.S. senators -- to determine if there is sufficient evidence to issue a recall for another 70-90 million cars on the road in the U.S. with Takata airbags -- meaning all of them still operating. A few senators demanded that the Dept. of Transportation order the NHTSA to issue such a recall but that would violate the laws previously passed by Congress that require the NHTSA to investigate first to determine if such action is warranted.

There are ~30 million cars in the U.S. already on recall for Takata airbags and a total of ~60 million worldwide. If all cars worldwide with Takata airbags were to be recalled, that would be ~287.5 million.

Bottom line is that the law currently applies only to new cars. Used cars are not covered. Manufacturers can issue Stop-Sale orders to their dealers but they can only enforce those on new cars and CPO cars, not other used cars. I seriously doubt that any BMW dealer would sell a used BMW with an open safety recall to a retail customer but apparently a few of them are now running those through the auction in spite of BMW's policy that they should be held until repairs are completed.

If the dealer takes in a Takata airbag affected car, he is stuck with it. He gets monthly assistance but he's still stuck with it. If he doesn't have place to store it, that's his problem. He cannot stick it back on BMWFS or BMWNA. That's why Bimmerfesters who read about all the generous offers they can get right now on their trade-in that has a Takata airbag recall on it should keep in mind the one _caveat_ you will see on all factory ads: "Dealer participation may vary."


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Has anyone who purchased their car traded in and if so how good of a deal did you get?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

What happens when these cars are repo and the bank can't sell them. Or when people file for bankruptcy and their finance deal to the the ch 7. Are these banks coming in and taking the cars in or just letting the owners keep them for ever like the do when they are low value?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

*Acura is taking care of their purchase clients unlike BMW.*

Acura is taking care of their purchase clients unlike BMW.

They are giving anyone trading in any of the affected cars a $10,000 rebate towards the purchase of another unaffected 2016 model.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Quatro40 said:


> Acura is taking care of their purchase clients unlike BMW.
> 
> They are giving anyone trading in any of the affected cars a $10,000 rebate towards the purchase of another unaffected 2016 model.


Wow Acura takes care of purchase clients. But does the Acura trade drop by $10k due to the airbag recalls?

My guess is Acura has lots more purchases than leases, so how are their lessees treated?


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

12 Handicap said:


> Has anyone who purchased their car traded in and if so how good of a deal did you get?


I will let you know tomorrow


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Quatro40 said:


> Acura is taking care of their purchase clients unlike BMW.
> 
> They are giving anyone trading in any of the affected cars a $10,000 rebate towards the purchase of another unaffected 2016 model.


Hard to believe this is accurate; can you provide a link?


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Michael, do you know what is the typical residual of a 4yrs/10K miles lease?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> What happens when these cars are repo and the bank can't sell them. Or when people file for bankruptcy and their finance deal to the the ch 7. Are these banks coming in and taking the cars in or just letting the owners keep them for ever like the do when they are low value?


Whenever a car is repossessed by a bank it is simply added to the bank's stock of repossessed cars. Those cars are either run through the auction or they are simply stored in the bank's repo lot and dealers are invited to come in and submit closed bids on them. For example, Bank of America in the San Francisco Bay Area might have a lot full of repo'd cars and boats just sitting there and then every three or four weeks they will sent out letters listing what they have and dealers are invited to go there to see them and submit closed bids. If a car has an open safety recall on it and the bank knows that, it will probably put a notice to that effect on the car's windshield. That's because the bank wants the buyer to assume all liability for the car from that point on.

The bank may accept the highest bid or if the highest bid is something the bank considers unacceptable, they may reject all of the bids on that particular car or boat and just let it sit there to be bid on again the next time. That's how a friend of mine "stole" a gorgeous 1-yr-old boat that was repo'd in the early 1980's when the economy was going through a rough spot. He simply kept submitting the same lowball bid on that boat every time he went in to look at cars and finally, after about three months, the bank took his offer just because they have a policy of not allowing anything to stay on the books more than 90 days. We knew that, we just didn't know he was the only bidder on that boat every time. The boat was like new with very low hours on it. He got it for about half the originally selling price the year before. We used to refer to that lot as the BofA Navy because they had so many boats there with the cars.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

MRCW said:


> You should be ashamed of your mindless comments about no reported injuries in precious BMW's. You must have really really drunk the kool-aid.
> BMW has a huge problem and generally BMW purchasers have more means to get things worked out.
> I for one will refuse to let BMW dictate terms to me for a screw up that they are responsible for.


I think you're the one who should be ashamed in posting such things. 
Ninong has been extremely helpful in this thread helping people with their issues. There is no coolaid to be drank here by Ninong, simply facts. I had my own reservations about the recall and in my case the way it was handled by BMW was an absolute disgrace. That is however no reflection on someone who is only trying to help. If anything, most of the manufacturers drank the coolaid themselves, served nicely by Takata. BMW can't be held responsible about something they weren't aware of. Nor can MB, VW et al. They all simply reacted to what could have been a badly explosive (pun intended) situation.

So I'd say control your words a little and don't bash the only guy who's been relentlessly and tirelessly using his long work experience to help and advise all of us who are in this mess.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Acura is taking care of their purchase clients unlike BMW.
> 
> They are giving anyone trading in any of the affected cars a $10,000 rebate towards the purchase of another unaffected 2016 model.


That $10,000 rebate probably comes off MSRP, not the "best negotiated price." If that's the case, and I'm just guessing that it may be that way, then compare that with the total deal you are getting with BMW. The problem is that you don't know the total deal you are getting with BMW because it's confidential. BMW provides financial assistance to the dealer in the form of a Trade In Benefit if he takes in a car that has a recall notice open and the parts are unavailable to fix it. In addition, they also pay him hundreds of dollars a month in depreciation and storage allowances while that traded-in car sits there in his used car inventory awaiting parts.

You don't know how much that is because it's something offered to the dealer. If I'm the dealer and I take $6,000 off MSRP on a $75,000 new car and BMW is giving me another $4,000 Trade In Benefit, then that's $10,000. Or the customer can just drive his MY12 or newer BMW with a recall notice on it down to the nearest BMW dealership and request that BMW provide him with a BMW rental car through Enterprise for Hertz at a cost of $64 plus insurance per day for the next unknown number of months. That works out to at least $2,400 a month in rental car charges. If the dealer actually takes one of those cars as a trade in, BMW pays him hundreds of dollars a month in depreciation and storage charges but the dealer is stuck with it forever and ever because he can't stick it back on BMWFS or BMWNA. They won't take it. If he doesn't have place to store it, that's his problem. If everyone who received a recall letter goes down to their local BMW store and demands a rental car, that's more than 5,000 on average for each of the 340 BMW dealers in the U.S. Obviously for a large dealer like Crevier, it's probably around 30,000 -- just that one store.

We're now up to 1.8 million Takata airbags in approximately 1.605 million BMWs recalled. Maybe 25% of those have already been fixed. This latest recall of 840,000 BMWs involved the PSDI-5 inflator modules and that was prompted by the 2006 Ford Ranger pickup that collided with an unfortunate cow in December 2015 in South Carolina. That inflator module had not been previously recalled. The NHTSA decided to add 5 million more cars with that inflator module to their recall list in February.

P.S. -- AutoNation, the largest auto dealer in the country, is now running unrepaired trade-ins (all brands) through the auction with a notice on them that the buyer assumes all liability for the unrepaired airbag. They have been doing that since December 2015. Their CEO admitted that in an interview two weeks ago. He said they were taking in too many recalled cars with no place to put them. Interesting. I think that's risky. If there is an accident with serious injuries, the lawyers will sue everybody. They won't leave anybody out.

P.P.S. -- Besides the Trade In Benefit if your car has a recall letter, you're also eligible for the Owner Loyalty Waiver and whatever support BMW is giving on that model at the time, so that could be another $1,000 or so, plus subvened lease rates, or a $1,000 or so Purchase Credit if you're not leasing. The Trade In Benefit only applies if you're not currently on a BMWFS lease. If you are on a lease, then a lot depends on when it expires.

The bottom line is that if you're looking at a new $60,000 BMW, your total benefits exceed $10,000 off the MSRP. So if that other manufacturer is talking about against MSRP, then BMW is competitive with that. If they're simply sending the customer a voucher good for $10,000 off his "best negotiated deal," then that's something else.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Prost said:


> Michael, do you know what is the typical residual of a 4yrs/10K miles lease?


Scanning through the 2016 chart, the 48 month residual runs from 34% - 47%. 3-series are in the high 30% (37-39), best are M3 at 45% and X5 35i's at 46/47%.

Hope this helps.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> Michael, do you know what is the typical residual of a 4yrs/10K miles lease?


The residuals are published for all the various terms but you won't like them once you get past 36 months. For example, here's what's offered currently for a 2016 328i: 36/10k=64%, 42/10k=55%, 48/10k=39%, 54/10k=36%, 60/10k=33%.

BMW wants you to lease for 24 or 36 months. They support (subvene) those residuals. That means they're setting them too high. The residuals they offer for terms longer than 36 months are more realistic. Take your pick. Customer's choice. 

P.S. -- Here's my two cents. Remember that residuals used to be based on the estimated wholesale value of the car at the end of the lease. That used to be the way they were set. The KBB came out every other month and the banks used to send out their residual sheet within days after that. So the residuals were set by the banks (including GECC, before BMWCC was invented and then changed to BMWFS) every other month. They virtually never went up. You just waited to see if they held the same or went down. And even with a BMW dealership, we didn't send everything to GECC. We compared what we were getting with them against what was being offered by BofA, Wells Fargo and Chase and probably did more business with them than we did with GECC. That all changed once BMW took over their own financing 100%.

If we take out market manipulation via generous residuals and just try to estimate the wholesale value at lease end, then we might change that to the following: 55% for 36/10k, 50% for 42/10k, 45% for 48/10k, 40% for 54/10k and 35% for 60/10k. That's my personal guess as to what I think the wholesale value will be on that car at the time the lease ends. That's not retail value, that's wholesale value. That's why so many customers used to buy, or refinance, their cars at the end of the lease instead of trading them in. The banks were not in business to lose money on leases. They were giving closed-end leases and they wanted to be able to wholesale those cars at lease end without losing money on them.

After GECC, BMW formed a partnership with GECC and starting calling the new outfit BMWCC. It was run by GECC but BMW had half interest in it (one of them owned 49% and the other owned 51% but I forgot which was which). Then they moved from Barrington, Illinois to Hilliard, Ohio around 1991 or 1992 and started calling themselves BMWFS and GECC owned nothing. Most manufacturers now own 100% of their captive finance arms and they all use them as a marketing tool to push cars. Except for GMAC. Those guys got in trouble by getting into the overheated home mortgage business and went BK. Now they call themselves Ally Bank or something. They were always getting into trouble one way or another and being forced to sign consent decrees with the feds over whatever it was they were doing wrong, like bundling repo's together instead of moving them separately through the auction. That way some poor guy who had put 40% down on his car that was repo'd a year later might be shocked to learn what they told him it brought at auction. Then all the dealers had to keep all their records available for audit by the feds for x-number of years. In my experience, which goes back more than 50 years, it was always something but they weren't the only ones. All the laws kept changing because we're talking about going back to the days before the Truth in Lending Act, which wasn't passed until, I believe, around 1968. Back in the mid-1960's, the F&I office hadn't even been invented yet. The salesmen did all of that themselves. The F&I office was invented in the early 1970's.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> I will let you know tomorrow


Please let us know how you made out. Be sure to include everything, including the actual cap cost/selling price of the new car compared to MSRP and the amounts of all the benefits you qualified for (owner's loyalty waiver, special trade in benefits, etc.), plus the fact that the new lease is being supported (subvened) by BMWFS with a low money factor and a residual that is overly generous.

My guess is that the total, if you add everything up, will amount to well over $10,000. Should be interesting.

Thanks!


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

namelessman said:


> Wow Acura takes care of purchase clients. But does the Acura trade drop by $10k due to the airbag recalls?
> 
> My guess is Acura has lots more purchases than leases, so how are their lessees treated?


The answer is no, I purchased my 2012 TL last year with 19k miles for 24k they offering me $21700 plus $10k rebate.

I am truly thinking of dumping the BMW X5 also and walking out with an MDX.

They are also giving our rentals from Enterprise to anybody that asks no questions asked. No paper to sign saying you can't drive your car either.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Scanning through the 2016 chart, the 48 month residual runs from 34% - 47%. 3-series are in the high 30% (37-39), best are M3 at 45% and X5 35i's at 46/47%.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> ~M~


Thanks, looks like my 12 months extension offer is not that "good" compare to other after all if you are comparing it with the "normal" 4 years lease...humm...


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Quatro40 said:


> The answer is no, I purchased my 2012 TL last year with 19k miles for 24k they offering me $21700 plus $10k rebate.
> 
> I am truly thinking of dumping the BMW X5 also and walking out with an MDX.
> 
> They are also giving our rentals from Enterprise to anybody that asks no questions asked. No paper to sign saying you can't drive your car either.


Is the 2012 TL on the recall list? If so Honda/Acura has strong resale values in spite of recalls then.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

X5done said:


> M
> 
> So what kind of garabage deals are they offering for owners? Do I have to let BMW know, that I will buy from another manufacturer because BMW cannot make things rights with the incentives etc? Or do I just write off the loss and change brands?


The easiest way is go ask your dealer. Today we traded a Takata impacted X5 for a '16 550xi and got a great deal, as well as more than fair Takata trade-in benefit. We're happy


----------



## paul325740 (Jul 17, 2006)

dkreidel said:


> The easiest way is go ask your dealer. Today we traded a Takata impacted X5 for a '16 550xi and got a great deal, as well as more than fair Takata trade-in benefit. We're happy


I have 2013 X5 35i as well and thinking about to trade-in, how much did they gave you for X5?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

X5done said:


> M
> 
> So what kind of garbage deals are they offering for owners? Do I have to let BMW know, that I will buy from another manufacturer because BMW cannot make things rights with the incentives etc? Or do I just write off the loss and change brands?


All I can say with a measure of riskiness to me is go to the dealer and say you want a reasonable trade in value as you know they being compensated to store the trade in, and that you want to negotiate a normal deal and then get a trade in benefit.

If they don't want to, and you have another dealer in the area, go to them.

You won't get the value on your trade that it was before the recall, and you might not get a $500 over deal. Dealers are trying to make some money as they are taking some risk.

But if you let them know, that you know the scoop (or some of it), it could go like dkreidel's did.

~M~


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> All I can say with a measure of riskiness to me is go to the dealer and say you want a reasonable trade in value as you know they being compensated to store the trade in, and that you want to negotiate a normal deal and then get a trade in benefit.
> 
> If they don't want to, and you have another dealer in the area, go to them.
> 
> ...


Not if he / She goes in and says "what kind of garbage deal are you giving me", though.


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> All I can say with a measure of riskiness to me is go to the dealer and say you want a reasonable trade in value as you know they being compensated to store the trade in, and that you want to negotiate a normal deal and then get a trade in benefit.
> 
> If they don't want to, and you have another dealer in the area, go to them.
> 
> ...


Thank you M. I did it already with my dealer of choice, but i was presented with what I called a "garbage" deal. This was almost as if they did not want me as a customer. Going to another dealer will involve me picking the car up and loose the enterprise rental. But at this point I may just check trade it in value with other dealers in different brands.

The rental is costing bmw or the dealer about 2k a month, so I am not sure why they cannot come up with something better to keep the customer happy and to cut the uncertainty.

In need 2 cars any given time, so they potentially loosing on a sale every 3 years. I am glad they are doing so food that they can pick and choose customers.

In the end such a low trade in value has an intrinsic message that the brand value is low. A car should not take a 75% depreciation in 5 years and that is with the incentives that they may be getting.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

X5done,

This is a great (i.e. unfortunate) example of how the process may be broken. Can I ask if you got the rental before or after you met with the sales folk?



X5done said:


> ... Going to another dealer will involve me picking the car up and lose the enterprise rental ...


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

paul325740 said:


> I have 2013 X5 35i as well and thinking about to trade-in, how much did they gave you for X5?


They matched Carmax's offer exactly. Values are regional, and have a lot of variation depending upon inventory, dealer's incentive to make a deal, phases of the moon, etc.. For a clean '13 X5 premium with ~30K miles you might expect $28-31K now the airbag recall is out.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

X5done said:


> M
> 
> So what kind of garabage deals are they offering for owners? Do I have to let BMW know, that I will buy from another manufacturer because BMW cannot make things rights with the incentives etc? Or do I just write off the loss and change brands?


They are offering **** for us, unlike Acura that's giving a $10k rebate to affected owners to trade into a 2016 Acura model.

Also Mercedes is offering a special sales incentive to customers who want to trade out of their recall-affected vehicle and buy or lease a new Mercedes-Benz. Owners of 2014 and 2013 models can get $2,000 toward a new vehicle; owners of older vehicles can get $1,000. Unlike BMW's plan which is a secret and nobody is publishing the numbers of their incentive.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

dkreidel said:


> The easiest way is go ask your dealer. Today we traded a Takata impacted X5 for a '16 550xi and got a great deal, as well as more than fair Takata trade-in benefit. We're happy


Can you tell us how much was the Takata trade in benefit?


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> X5done,
> 
> This is a great (i.e. unfortunate) example of how the process may be broken. Can I ask if you got the rental before or after you met with the sales folk?


Before. But I had also talked to BMW, and my sales guy regarding me not wanting to drive the car.

As I see it now, they are losing money and I am losing money.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

X5done said:


> As I see it now, they are losing money and I am losing money.


Yep, sadly this is true. Not a good situation for anyone - it's just one of those things in life that you have little control over. It normally takes government or the military to create such a huge SNAFU; unusual to see private industry make such a big mess for themselves and their customers.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> Mercedes is offering a special sales incentive to customers who want to trade out of their recall-affected vehicle and buy or lease a new Mercedes-Benz. Owners of 2014 and 2013 models can get $2,000 toward a new vehicle; owners of older vehicles can get $1,000.


BMW's plan is a lot better than that.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Quatro40 said:


> Can you tell us how much was the Takata trade in benefit?


It's situational and negotiable. I received different offers from different dealers. I think it depends upon year and model for both the trade and new car.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

X5done said:


> Before. But I had also talked to BMW, and my sales guy regarding me not wanting to drive the car.


In the ideal world, they would have wanted you to talk to service first to explain the recall details and why you should keep driving the X5.

Then, if you say, "No I don't want to drive it," you should have been directed to Sales to talk about the trade in benefit program.

Then, if that doesn't work out, you either 1) go to another dealer or 2) your dealer provides alternate transportation.

If this was the process, you could have at least been able to see what you could do with the dealers on the sales side, before getting a rental/loaner.

For the benefit of other readers, the above is probably the best way to work the process. But in observing BMW forums and what's happening with customers here, this isn't how it's going for people.

~M~


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

dkreidel said:


> It's situational and negotiable. I received different offers from different dealers. I think it depends upon year and model for both the trade and new car.


How much was it for your? Or did you have to sing a non disclose agreement. I don't understand what is the mystery.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> It's situational and negotiable. I received different offers from different dealers. I think it depends upon year and model for both the trade and new car.


Yes, there's more than one benefit involved. There's the Takata airbag recall benefit that varies depending on the year and model of the affected car. Then there's the monthly financial assistance BMW provides the dealer on that trade-in while it is sitting around waiting for parts to fix the airbag. Then there's the benefit that applies to the car being sold, regardless of whether there is a Takata airbag recall involved. Then if your new deal is a lease, there's the fact that the residual on the new car is crazy high (overly generous). If it's a cash deal or finance deal, there's the cash Purchase Credit.

So there's a whole bunch of stuff involved and _dealer participation may vary_. That doesn't mean that BMW's assistance varies between dealers. It means that the assistance is _offered_ to the dealers but dealers can never be forced to do anything involving the price of the deal unless they want to do it. All of you guys reading this thread are tired of hearing that over and over again. I know. And you're tired of me saying that many dealers are freaking out over being stuck holding all these Takata airbag recalls that can't be fixed because there are no parts to fix them and nobody can promise them when the parts will come in. The dealer cannot stick those cars back on BMWFS or BMWNA. Once he takes them in, there're his. Forever and ever. For better or worse. What if he has no room to put them? That's his problem.

I think what most of you guys are trying to get at is exactly what was the extra amount you got just because your traded-in car was affected by the Takata airbag recall but they don't understand that you can't post that. Ever. That's life. The only thing you can post is that you were very, very happy with the deal. :thumbup: And I think you have already made that clear. Now it's up to them to work out their own deal. Can they expect every dealer in the country to match the deal you got from a high-volume dealership in Southern California? No, of course not! That's the way it works and if they're not comfortable doing that, they can always just walk into a Tesla dealership and pay full asking price if that makes them feel better.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

Ninong said:


> I think what most of you guys are trying to get at is exactly what was the extra amount you got just because your traded-in car was affected by the Takata airbag recall but they don't understand that you can't post that. Ever. That's life. The only thing you can post is that you were very, very happy with the deal. :thumbup: And I think you have already made that clear. Now it's up to them to work out their own deal. Can they expect every dealer in the country to match the deal you got from a high-volume dealership in Southern California? No, of course not! That's the way it works and if they're not comfortable doing that, they can always just walk into a Tesla dealership and pay full asking price if that makes them feel better.


That is just plain and stupid, I don't have the time right now to go into a dealer and I would like to know my options before I walk in and they banbuzzle me since it seems to be different.

The others auto manufactures have set in an exact amount for the takata trade in benefit and are public with the number, as to why BMW is keeping this a mystery beats me but seems to be to give the dealer the upper hand and pocket the difference if the low ball a number to the customer and he/she bites.

More reasons not to trust the brand or be loyal to it.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> That is just plain and stupid, I don't have the time right now to go into a dealer and I would like to know my options before I walk in and they banbuzzle me since it seems to be different.


If you're not happy with what you were offered by that dealer, you can always forget about him and try other dealers. Maybe you will find one willing to give you a deal that will make you very, very happy like *dkreidel*. Or maybe not. Maybe your dealer doesn't like the idea of being stuck with your car? You can't force him to cut a deal with you and neither can BMW.



P.S. -- You need to go back and read Post #1212. That's a statement of fact. Then read Post #1216. That's an explanation. That's the best you're going to get because most of what BMW is doing is factory-to-dealer assistance and that's proprietary information. Most importantly, BMW can't force the dealers to do something if they don't want to. They can't tell the dealers how much to appraise these Takata airbag recalled cars for, expecially if the dealer doesn't know when he's going to get the parts to fix them.

Your dealers in New Jersey may not be interested in matching what a high-volume dealer in Southern California is willing to do.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Quatro40 said:


> How much was it for your? Or did you have to sing a non disclose agreement. I don't understand what is the mystery.


No formal NDA, but I choose not to broadcast on the interweb thingy. I value my relationships with the CA's I work with, and don't want to strain or compromise them. The 550xi was leased at Pacific BMW through Greg Poland :thumbup:


----------



## Caesonia (Mar 16, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> That is just plain and stupid, I don't have the time right now to go into a dealer and I would like to know my options before I walk in and they banbuzzle me since it seems to be different.
> 
> The others auto manufactures have set in an exact amount for the takata trade in benefit and are public with the number, as to why BMW is keeping this a mystery beats me but seems to be to give the dealer the upper hand and pocket the difference if the low ball a number to the customer and he/she bites.
> 
> More reasons not to trust the brand or be loyal to it.


Um...they have? I think Ninong made it very clear as to what those so called open offers might mean. Call and find out. BMW has published what support they are giving. But that does not dictate what the dealer has to do anymore than the other manufacturers can to their dealers.

You don't have time? Welcome to the world. Car makers and dealers bank on that. All of them.

I might not be overly impressed but at least BMW has learned not to trust a third party in a cheap wage country on something special critical.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

While Ninong and I discuss who has what bulletin, the bottom line is this.

You can't use the Trade in Benefit for Euro Deliveries. That is a certainly and on all the bulletins I've read.

Whether or not the local dealer and/or regional marketing manager agree to allow the STRB (Safety Recall Trade-in Benefit) for a "future order" that can arrive before June 30, or simply a dealer trade, or an inbound unit, it is *up to you to push for one of these options if it is the best opportunity for you*. I won't post anything with absolute certainty, when the infamous toolkit specifically states that if something is outside the dealer "guardrails" the regional office can offer an approval. That leaves the door open.

~M~


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Quatro40 said:


> That is just plain and stupid, I don't have the time right now to go into a dealer and I would like to know my options before I walk in and they banbuzzle me since it seems to be different.
> 
> The others auto manufactures have set in an exact amount for the takata trade in benefit and are public with the number, as to why BMW is keeping this a mystery beats me but seems to be to give the dealer the upper hand and pocket the difference if the low ball a number to the customer and he/she bites.
> 
> More reasons not to trust the brand or be loyal to it.


Perhaps, but I wouldn't trust Honda/Acura either. They have known about this airbag issue for years and have been accused of conspiring with Takata to covering it up. That may be one reason they are being so generous with their trade in deals.

The other reason may be that almost everyone who has died as a result of a Takata airbag malfunction has died in a Honda vehicle (the Ford ranger pickup is the one exception I am aware of).

I am not convinced I would be safer in a 2016 Acura MDX than I am driving around in my 2011 X5 with the open airbag recall.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

MRCW said:


> Fwiw we have decided to keep our x1 35i and will drive our 528 rental for the next couple of years. I dropped my insurance coverage down to bare minimums on the x1 with a teenage driver and saving about $150 month. I am currently negotiating extending our warranty and maintenance day for day. I am not negotiating anything at the dealer level. Strictly with a regional manager type in NJ
> 
> We really like our x1 35i. We'll start an extended storage regimen soon.


How to negotiate warranty and maintenance day by day (or month to month)?


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

dkreidel said:


> HaHa, Hong Kong rules :rofl:


I like that description...


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Prost said:


> How to negotiate warranty and maintenance day by day (or month to month)?


What he means is he wants his factory warranty and complimentary BMW maintenance coverage to be extended by an additional day for each day the car is waiting for parts to fix the Takata airbag problem. If it takes 117 days before his car's safety recall has been satisfied, then he wants BMW to extend both his BMW warranty and BMW maintenance by 117 days. That seems like a reasonable expectation to me. :thumbup:


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Prost said:


> I like that description...


I maintain an office in HKG, and have been a JV partner in a Shenzhen factory since 1993. I used to be amazed how the Chinese make up rules as the situation dictates, but after 20+ years not much surprises me about PRC.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Haha! You know from personal experience with your recent transaction that those "rules," like beauty, can be in the eye of the beholder.  Which is why it never hurts to have more than one set of eyes look on the same "rules."


This is approaching the complexity of the tax code. :rofl:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> This is approaching the complexity of the tax code. :rofl:


And just like the tax code, the answer depends on who you ask. 

There are published incentives that apply to each model as shown on the BMWUSA.com website. In addition, the dealer receives various forms of financial assistance from BMWNA to help him deal with this situation. That assistance is not the same for each model and that makes perfect sense. The customers certainly didn't pay the same for each model when they shopped for a car and the value of each of those models as a used car depends on how old they are.

Once the dealer takes one of those Takata airbag cars in trade, he has a firm grip on it. Last December AutoNation quietly began running some of their Takata airbag cars -- all brands -- through the auction with a notice inside the windshield on the passenger side that the car had an unrepaired Takata airbag and that the buyer assumed all risk. Their CEO admitted that a couple of weeks ago in an interview. If a used car dealer buys one of those cars, he is not legally required to fix the airbag before selling it and not even required to tell the prospective buyer that it has an unrepaired Takata airbag. If a rental car company goes to the auction and buys a couple dozen cars with Takata airbag problems because he likes the price, he can put those in his rental service without telling the customers that the car he rented has an unrepaired Takata airbag. Remember that one of those 2001 Honda Civics that exploded in the customer's face, killing her, had an unrepaired Takata airbag. It had been on the recall list for six years at the time of the accident.

BMW can issue a Stop-Sale on all of their cars in the dealers' inventory but they can't legally prevent the dealers from selling unrepaired Takata airbag used cars that are not CPO cars. I suspect that if any BMW dealer were to retail a used (non-CPO) BMW with an unrepaired Takata airbag, all hell would break loose between him and BMWNA. All of the manufacturers have issued Stop-Sale orders on all of their cars in dealer inventory, including used cars, but they can only enforce it on new cars and CPO cars. On new cars it's the law and on CPO cars it's because the manufacturer is backing the car.

Dealers of a lot of other brands are even more affected than BMW dealers. Fortunately for VW/Audi dealers, diesels make up only a small percentage of their total sales. Besides the new Stop-Sale orders on Takata airbags they still have Dieselgate Stop-Sale orders.


----------



## nickagg10 (Mar 23, 2014)

*Any luck on extending warranty and complimentary service*

Folks,

I am on the same boat as well with my E93 M3. I opted for the loaner and has been talking to BMW of NA to figure out a way to extend my warranty and service package. I believe my request is fair, since i am concerned about the soft parts as well as fluids and battery degrading on account of lack of use. The last i talked to them, the resolution specialist took down my request in detail and she said she was going to present it to their management team. I have not heard anything back from them on it.

Any of you folks had any luck with this?:dunno:

Thanks,

Nick


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

*This is not good news!*

Nikkei newspaper in Japan is reporting that the NHTSA has told carmakers it will recall all vehicles on the road without a moisture-absorbing desiccant in the ammonium nitrate propellant. That might expand the total recall to 100 million vehicles according to Bloomberg's headline but that would be worldwide, assuming other countries follow the NHTSA's lead as they often do. Right now the worldwide recall is approximately 60 million vehicles. In the U.S. it's approximately 30 million vehicles but 34 million airbags (some have both front airbags on the recall list). If it's a total of 100 million worldwide, that would be an increase of 40 million. What is most important to us is how many additional cars in the U.S. and, in particular, how many additional BMWs in the U.S.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ort-recalls-may-widen-to-100-million-vehicles

P.S. -- As far as I know, Takata only recently began adding a desiccant to their modules. They still use ammonium nitrate but with the desiccant. I wonder exactly when they did that? I suspect it may have been a few years ago but maybe they still used some of the older modules without desiccant in some of those late model BMWs on the recall list? Maybe that's one of the reasons BMW is pissed at them and refuses to get replacements from them.

Since we already know that the NHTSA decided long ago that dealers in the Gulf Coast states, plus Georgia and South Carolina, have priority over dealers in other parts of the country and older cars have priority over newer cars, you can see what this may mean to your waiting time depending on where you live and the age of your car. Obviously all of the millions more cars that would be added to the recall will be older than the ones already on the recall list.

I have no clue what this will mean for BMW's schedule. The most reliable reports in Automotive News seem to indicate they were expecting parts availability by mid to late summer. Assuming the expanded recall is coming, I wonder how many additional BMWs will be added to the list.

Remember that it's entirely up to the NHTSA whether to do that and it's entirely up to the NHTSA to dictate which cars have priority for available replacement parts. In other words, if you live in Arizona you could be last in line. Go back to the very first post in this thread for an explanation of the various priority groupings.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

So did/does BMW use Takata in all their models ? I was going to trade out of my X1 but don't want to get into another pile of crap in a month. By pile of crap I mean the air bag fiasco. Love my X1 and don't really want out of it.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

I think for owners and not renters, strongest position to take against BMW is to keep your vehicle and get a loaner/ rental on BMW and then work your issue directly with BMWNA. This is a manufacturer issue, not a dealer issue and BMWNA seems like they want the dealer to act as their agent with this issue. 

I had a discussion with sales manager and told him i was dealing directly with BMWNA and he said he wished others would also because he has trouble managing the regular service department activities work add the recall stuff being thrown at them...don't know if BMW is compensating dealers for added "hidden" burden of dealing with recall issues


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

MRCW said:


> I think for owners and not renters, strongest position to take against BMW is to keep your vehicle and get a loaner/ rental on BMW and then work your issue directly with BMWNA. This is a manufacturer issue, not a dealer issue and BMWNA seems like they want the dealer to act as their agent with this issue.
> 
> I had a discussion with sales manager and told him i was dealing directly with BMWNA and he said he wished others would also because he has trouble managing the regular service department activities work add the recall stuff being thrown at them...don't know if BMW is compensating dealers for added "hidden" burden of dealing with recall issues


The rental strategy is great if your dealer gives you a comparable car. Otherwise you could be paying BMW SUV money to drive a less safe Kia subcompact. Meanwhile your expensive BMW rots in longterm storage.

With the further widening of the recall, it looks like may be hard to find a car without an open recall.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> *This is not good news!*
> 
> Nikkei newspaper in Japan is reporting that the NHTSA has told carmakers it will recall all vehicles on the road without a moisture-absorbing desiccant in the ammonium nitrate propellant. That might expand the total recall to 100 million vehicles according to Bloomberg's headline but that would be worldwide, assuming other countries follow the NHTSA's lead as they often do. Right now the worldwide recall is approximately 60 million vehicles. In the U.S. it's approximately 30 million vehicles but 34 million airbags (some have both front airbags on the recall list). If it's a total of 100 million worldwide, that would be an increase of 40 million. What is most important to us is how many additional cars in the U.S. and, in particular, how many additional BMWs in the U.S.
> 
> ...


That is somewhat expected, there goes the non-recall status of most BMW loaners as well as rental cars. 

If the F chassis cars are also affected, it is unlikely that BMWNA/BMWFS can/will keep up the generous lease extensions.

BTW, any detail of the trade-in allowance for non-lease cars yet?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> BTW, any detail of the trade-in allowance for non-lease cars yet?


A client member of the 'Fest posted a Trade in Benefit of $4,000 for a 2012 or newer X5. I confirm that. And will state that it is the top amount of SRTB (Safety Recall Trade-in Benefit.)

~M~


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> A client member of the 'Fest posted a Trade in Benefit of $4,000 for a 2012 or newer X5. I confirm that. And will state that it is the top amount of SRTB (Safety Recall Trade-in Benefit.)
> 
> ~M~


Thanks for the info. Is this SRTB stackable with any current VIN-based/BMWFS-based/BMWNA incentives?


----------



## Bsabella (May 2, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> A client member of the 'Fest posted a Trade in Benefit of $4,000 for a 2012 or newer X5. I confirm that. And will state that it is the top amount of SRTB (Safety Recall Trade-in Benefit.)
> 
> ~M~


FYI- We live In Houston and I just traded in my daughters 2011 135i on 4/30/2016 - they gave $2000 for the recall on top of the FMV of the trade.


----------



## twssas (Nov 4, 2006)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> A client member of the 'Fest posted a Trade in Benefit of $4,000 for a 2012 or newer X5. I confirm that. And will state that it is the top amount of SRTB (Safety Recall Trade-in Benefit.)
> 
> ~M~


any numbers you could confirm for a 2011 x5 35d? Understand if you can not


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Thanks for the info. Is this SRTB stackable with any current VIN-based/BMWFS-based/BMWNA incentives?


Yes within the program guidelines of the FS/NA incentives themselves.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

twssas said:


> any numbers you could confirm for a 2011 x5 35d? Understand if you can not


From Bsabella:

"FYI- We live In Houston and I just traded in my daughters *2011 *135i on 4/30/2016 - they gave *$2000* for the recall on top of the FMV of the trade."


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

Dealers are taking in some cars in trade and storing others for those worried their airbags will hurt them. They won't want to keep those cars any longer than necessary, which likely means those vehicles will be the ones to get the replacement airbags as soon as they're available. Those of us still driving our recalled cars will be driving around much longer waiting for the repair. It's an aggravating situation, for sure.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Caesonia said:


> Some are clueless, and some probably feel confident that their bag won't explode and will be taken care of in the next 18 months. Perhaps some realize that the data actually shows Hondas and older cars, and their risk is very very low. Where I blame BMW is trusting stuff made in a manufacturing plant which had the one goal of cutting labour costs and avoiding oversight.


I dont think BMW and maybe a few other manufacturers were aware of what was going on. Or maybe they knew something but not enough to question Takata's process and parts. 
It could also be that they knew all along and didn't want to absorb the cost. At this point anyone's guess is a good guess.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

The expansion of the recall is coming, either later today or later this week. It is expected to be an additional 35 million (in the U.S.) initially, bringing the total in the U.S. to ~65 million but it is likely to increase to a total of *more than 100 million in the U.S.* by 2019 if Takata fails to prove to the NHTSA that their other airbags (side airbags and frontal airbags with desiccant) are safe. The worldwide total could reach 287.5 million.

Here is the latest from Bloomberg as published in the Automotive News: http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ival-gets-even-harder-as-airbag-recall-widens


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> The expansion of the recall is coming, either later today or later this week. It is expected to be an additional 35 million (in the U.S.) initially, bringing the total in the U.S. to ~65 million but it is likely to increase to a total of *more than 100 million in the U.S.* by 2019 if Takata fails to prove to the NHTSA that their other airbags (side airbags and frontal airbags with desiccant) are safe. The worldwide total could reach 287.5 million.
> 
> Here is the latest from Bloomberg as published in the Automotive News: http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ival-gets-even-harder-as-airbag-recall-widens


Is there any hint if F-chassis cars will be affected?


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Caesonia said:


> At this point, I feel like the real issue with your 2013 is you weren't happy with it period, and this is just one more reason to dump it..


Almost right, the wifey got spooked by the recall letter (her car), refused to drive it and commandeered my Z4 and truck. I had a '13 X5M, and would have kept it had I wanted to drive an X5 :rofl::rofl:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> I dont think BMW and maybe a few other manufacturers were aware of what was going on. Or maybe they knew something but not enough to question Takata's process and parts.
> It could also be that they knew all along and didn't want to absorb the cost. At this point anyone's guess is a good guess.


There are 14 major car manufacturers involved in the recall. There is absolutely no doubt about Honda's knowledge since they settled their first fatality claim in 2004, as well as dozens of separate incidents involving injuries. Toyota began settling injury claims in 2007. All three of them -- Takata, Honda and Toyota -- were fined as heavily as the law allows the NHTSA to fine a company for failure to report those injuries and, in Honda's case, deaths to the NHTSA. They kept it quiet.

There are 11 confirmed deaths so far (10 in Hondas and one in a Ford Ranger pickup) but I believe there may have been another one in a Honda recently. They have to be officially investigated first.

There has been a tremendous amount of testimony from witnesses before the NHTSA and congressional committees investigating this mess, so it's fairly well known now what happened and who knew about it. Many of the manufacturers affected by this recall have never had a single incident involving the failure of a Takata airbag inflator in any of their vehicles.

You will be pleased to know that last year Honda opened an internal investigation to find out why their employees failed to comply with U.S. laws requiring the reporting of injuries and deaths to the NHTSA. They were shocked in Tokyo to learn that their employees had failed to comply with all of the U.S. laws and are determined to learn how that happened so that they can make sure it never happens again. Yes, they actually said that with a straight face.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

*It's Official*

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...-of-takata-recalls?cciid=email-autonews-blast

http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...s-accelerates-takata-inflator-recall-05042016
~M~


----------



## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

dkreidel said:


> Not accurate; WSJ wrote their article correctly. In Japan there are 6 different legal paths to what you are calling "bankruptcy". The most common, and closest to our Chapter 11, is called Corporate Reorganization Law - not bankruptcy. Japan utilizes Reconstruction or Restructuring attorneys in these proceedings.


When Fuji bank closed its doors I guess that wasn't bankruptcy either?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...-of-takata-recalls?cciid=email-autonews-blast
> 
> http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...s-accelerates-takata-inflator-recall-05042016
> ~M~


Yep. Thanks for the link. Automotive News yesterday said it would be announced today and they were right.

Sad. This is an impossible situation. And they might add an additional 50 million in 2019, bringing the total in the U.S. to over 100 million.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

So, horse and carriage?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> So, horse and carriage?


Be careful, the horse might throw a substandard shoe.

~M~


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Be careful, the horse might throw a substandard shoe.
> 
> ~M~


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

1northcar said:


> When Fuji bank closed its doors I guess that wasn't bankruptcy either?


He didn't say that. He was talking about what is closest to our Chapter 11 reorganization. The Bankruptcy procedure in Japan does not allow for reorganization. It is only used for a total liquidation of all assets.

Here is an explanation of the various different forms of restructuring in Japan that we think of as bankruptcy here. Notice that only one of them is called bankruptcy and it means the assets are completely liquidated and the company ceases to exist.

https://www.jurists.co.jp/en/topics/others_4007.html


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

*Brace for impact*

20 million more added to the recall, now is all passenger side airbags as well.

U.S. Department of Transportation expands and accelerates Takata air bag inflator recall to protect American drivers and passengers 

"These expansions are planned to take place in phases between May 2016 and December 2019. The expansions mean that all Takata ammonium nitrate-based propellant driver and passenger frontal air bag inflators without a chemical drying agent, also known as a desiccant, will be recalled."

Affected BMW's
2008-2013 128i
2008-2013 135i
2008-2013 1 Series M
2000 323i
2002-2006 325Ci
2002-2003 325iT
2001-2011 325i
2001-2011 325xi
2002-2003 325xiT
2006-2012 325xiT
2000 328i
2006-2013 328i
2006-2013 328xi
2006-2013 328i xDrive
2001-2011 330i
2001-2011 330xi
2002-2006 330Ci
2006-2013 335i
2006-2013 335xi
2006-2013 335i xDrive
2009-2011 335d
2007-2013 335is
2002-2003 525i
2002-2003 530i
2002-2003 540i
2001-2013 M3
2002-2003 M5
2013-2015 X1 sDrive28i
2013-2015 X1 xDrive28i
2013-2015 X1 xDrive35i
2007-2010 X3 xDrive30i
2003 X5 3.0i
2003 X5 4.4i
2007-2013 X5 xDrive30i
2007-2013 X5 xDrive35i
2007-2013 X5 xDrive48i
2007-2013 X5 xDrive50
2007-2013 X5 M
2009-2013 X5 xDrive35d
2008-2014 X6 xDrive35i
2008-2014 X6 xDrive50i
2008-2014 X6 M


----------



## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

L


Ninong said:


> He didn't say that. He was talking about what is closest to our Chapter 11 reorganization. The Bankruptcy procedure in Japan does not allow for reorganization. It is only used for a total liquidation of all assets.
> 
> Here is an explanation of the various different forms of restructuring in Japan that we think of as bankruptcy here. Notice that only one of them is called bankruptcy and it means the assets are completely liquidated and the company ceases to exist.
> 
> https://www.jurists.co.jp/en/topics/others_4007.html


Thanks for the most informative link. Since it appears that Takata is facing contingent liabilities rather than actual unpaid bills to creditors (as was the case for Fuji Bank) this may be unchartered territory not contemplated by the current codes. Curious as to what would stop Takata from just going out of business without regard to restructuring or ultimate bankruptcy? Perhaps there is some precedent with regard to the contingent liabilities that relate to the Japanese nuclear plant meltdown though perhaps not if the plant was government owned as one would assume.

The U.S. Government would likely have no control over a foreign parts manufacturer anyway so it is the auto makers who are in the direct line of fire. One has to wonder if the magnitude of this recall will begin to threaten their economic viability and if so whether the added costs are going to be seen in increased car prices for the consumer.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Be careful, the horse might throw a substandard shoe.
> 
> ~M~


It's OK. We stare at horse's asses every day while we drive. This won't be any different.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Quatro40 said:


> 20 million more added to the recall, now is all passenger side airbags as well.
> 
> U.S. Department of Transportation expands and accelerates Takata air bag inflator recall to protect American drivers and passengers
> 
> ...


Where are you getting this list?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

L-F-C said:


> Where are you getting this list?


Directly from the NHTSA site

http://icsw.nhtsa.gov/safercar/rs/takata/takatalist.html NOTE: This list does not yet include vehicles in the May 4 announced Takata recall expansion. It will be updated to reflect the expanded recall when this information is available. Please sign up for NHTSA***8217;s Recall Alerts to be notified when you can search for all vehicles affected by this recall using the Recalls Lookup Tool.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Quatro40 said:


> Directly from the NHTSA site
> 
> http://icsw.nhtsa.gov/safercar/rs/takata/takatalist.html NOTE: This list does not yet include vehicles in the May 4 announced Takata recall expansion. It will be updated to reflect the expanded recall when this information is available. Please sign up for NHTSA's Recall Alerts to be notified when you can search for all vehicles affected by this recall using the Recalls Lookup Tool.


Oh, this is the current list then. I thought it looked familiar.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

VIN: 5UXZV4C50BL739781 
Year: 2011 Make: BMW Model: X5 XDRIVE35I US
Number of Open Recalls: 1
NHTSA Recall Number: opens new window takes away from VIN lookup section> 16V071 Recall Date: February 5, 2016
Manufacturer Recall Number: NA
SUMMARY:
DRIVER'S FRONT AIR BAG: During air bag deployment in an accident, the driver's front air bag module may produce excessive internal pressure that could cause the inflator to rupture.
SAFETY RISK:
Inflator rupture could result in metal fragments striking the driver or other passengers, potentially resulting in serious injury or death.
REMEDY:
Your BMW center will replace the driver's front air bag module. However, due to the large volume of new inflators needed to repair vehicles, the necessary parts will not be immediately available. As a result, owners of affected vehicles will be informed of the recall in an initial notification letter. Once replacement parts become available BMW will send another notification letter to owners, beginning with older model year vehicles located in BMW's previously defined HAH (High Absolute Humidity) region and expanding accordingly as more parts become available.
RECALL STATUS: Recall INCOMPLETE. Remedy not yet available 
MANUFACTURER NOTES:
For additional information or assistance, please contact Customer Relations and Services at [email protected], or at 1-800-525-7417.


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Which includes the option to buy a car at a very good price knowing it has an open recall for its Takata airbag but you don't care because you understand that it is safe to drive for years more and you also know that the parts to fix it will probably be here no later than next spring or summer at the very latest.
> 
> That's also in the category of _caveat emptor_. Look for one of those late model trade-ins that AutoNation ran through the auction and pick up one of those at a distressed price!


Ninong, what makes you think the replacement airbags in the March 2016 recall "will probably be here no later than next spring or summer at the very latest.?"

I have a 2002 E46 still awaiting a driver's airbag in the July 2015 recall. Latest word is I might get a letter this coming summer explaining when that airbag will be available. This E46 already had the recalled passenger airbag replaced in 2013.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> I'm assuming they paid for the insurance as well, right? We got a bill from Enterprise where insurance was charged to our card on file with them, not BMWNA.


Isn't BMW supposed to pay for that insurance?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

X5done said:


> About this part: "anyone who was not happy with the deal they got once they got done to actual deal negotiations with their dealer "
> 
> I was not happy with the deal that was presented to me. I've tried two times, and the offer was just one sided. I have a 2011 so the offers may not be as good, but I do not see any effort in making the deal fair.


Thanks! That's what I was trying to find out. Here's a little more info. The dealer's Trade Benefit on MY11 and older cars is not as much as his Trade Benefit on MY12 and newer. Once the car is MY11 and older, the benefit to the dealer is the same on all models, so it doesn't vary based on whether it's an X5 or some less expensive car like it does for MY12 and newer. So that's one place the dealer doesn't have as much room to move.

Dealers do get a monthly allowance on each traded-in car that they are holding in their inventory awaiting replacement parts to fix the Takata airbag until such time as the parts are received. So that is supposed to make it a little easier for the dealer to swallow one of these trades without knowing when he's going to get the parts to fix it. He knows that BMW won't take it back. It's his.

You are the first Bimmerfester, but perhaps not the only one, to say that he tried to cut a deal and it just didn't work out the way he hoped. Your only option would be to check another dealer to see if you can do a little better. It may be possible to get a quote from CarMax on your trade but others who have tried that said the dealer's offer was better and that's because the dealer gets a lot of assistance from the factory on those cars and CarMax gets none. Of course, CarMax will go right ahead and sell a car with a Takata recall and just advise the buyer to register it with the manufacturer to be informed of any recalls.

Good luck if you try elsewhere.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Isn't BMW supposed to pay for that insurance?


that's what we thought. I've asked the SM at our dealership to look into it but I think I will call Enterprise myself since I'm not positive he will do anything about it.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

WDC330i said:


> Should we start a thread here for those who have successfully gotten their airbags replaced? Year / model / location of the car?


If you're in Georgia, you're in a state that will have priority for replacement modules ahead of people who do not live in one of the Gulf Coast states or Georgia and South Carolina. However, BMW is struggling to get adequate replacements right now, especially for certain module models that the other manufacturers haven't been making recently. No one in their right mind should want to buy any replacement modules from Takata. At least I wouldn't, would you?

What car do you have a recall notice on?


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

jhm5 said:


> Ninong, what makes you think the replacement airbags in the March 2016 recall "will probably be here no later than next spring or summer at the very latest.?"
> 
> I have a 2002 E46 still awaiting a driver's airbag in the July 2015 recall. Latest word is I might get a letter this coming summer explaining when that airbag will be available. This E46 already had the recalled passenger airbag replaced in 2013.


What I find as difficult to understand is, why hasn't this been fixed sooner? Here is a MY 2002 vehicle, waiting for an airbag fix, with no end in sight? When this type of action by manufacturers drags on for longer than a decade, one has to wonder what will change their action/behavior? What will make/force customers to obtain legal action to get things done? This is inexcusable.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

socal59 said:


> What I find as difficult to understand is, why hasn't this been fixed sooner? Here is a MY 2002 vehicle, waiting for an airbag fix, with no end in sight? When this type of action by manufacturers drags on for longer than a decade, one has to wonder what will change their action/behavior? What will make/force customers to obtain legal action to get things done? This is inexcusable.


I guess I am reading the post different than you, but what I read is, the poster said his car was model year 2002 but he got the notice in july of 2015 for the airbag recall.. so its 10 ish months waiting for a replacement (not a decade).


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Thanks! That's what I was trying to find out. Here's a little more info. The dealer's Trade Benefit on MY11 and older cars is not as much as his Trade Benefit on MY12 and newer. Once the car is MY11 and older, the benefit to the dealer is the same on all models, so it doesn't vary based on whether it's an X5 or some less expensive car like it does for MY12 and newer. So that's one place the dealer doesn't have as much room to move.
> 
> Dealers do get a monthly allowance on each traded-in car that they are holding in their inventory awaiting replacement parts to fix the Takata airbag until such time as the parts are received. So that is supposed to make it a little easier for the dealer to swallow one of these trades without knowing when he's going to get the parts to fix it. He knows that BMW won't take it back. It's his.
> 
> ...


I posted my experience earlier in the thread. When I went to get a loaner we tried to trade in for a new X5 but the deal they gave us was way way off of what I was expecting, as well as them seeming to want to "double dip" by reducing value of the trade because of the recall and keeping the $4000 trade incentive for themselves. On top of that they still would get the monthly depreciation bonus from BMW for the trade sitting on the lot.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> I wish I could get a 5 series rental. The dealership sold my loaner 340 yesterday and traded me out with a super base 328i. It has no options at all and I really hate it. Plus it has tan interior which I do not like in a car at all.


No one has to ask for replacement transportation. That's up to the individual. Not everyone in a 2013 X5 is worried about the airbag exploding. However, BMW did offer you that option but it's not compulsory. Some of use who live in an area exactly like yours are not concerned about this situation. That's a personal decision for each individual to make. I guess you could always choose to drive your X5 instead.

There have been beaucoup studies done on the underlying cause of this problem and it is that over a period of years, in hot humid climates like ours, the ammonium nitrate used as a propellant in Takata inflator modules may absorb moisture, causing them to over-pressurize, resulting in an excessively powerful explosion that fractures the module housing. The projected length of time until that may begin to happen varies from more than 15-20 years in the least risky areas (mean not very hot or humid) to more than 6-9 years in the areas where it is hot and humid and miserable several months a year -- such as Houston. The NHTSA has finally said in their study posted on their website May 4 that these cars are safe to drive in the meantime, meaning before that surpass the projected time when deterioration might possibly begin.

However, even in Takata airbags that were tested from previously recalled cars in exactly such areas, the failure rate for the ones with the same modules was 0.07% (1 out of every 1,429 tested). If your car was one of the most recent 840,000 added to the recall list by the NHTSA, it wasn't recalled previously because there was no evidence that it should be recalled but that last 5 million the NHTSA added to their list in late February are on there because of that driver of a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup who hit that stupid cow in South Carolina.

Of the 13 fatalities worldwide to date, all have been in older model Hondas except for that 10-yr-old Ford Ranger pickup. There have been approximately 139 injury reports to date (I think) but none in a BMW. The cars with the highest failure rate of 2.16% (1 out of 46) were older model Hondas, then Toyota and some GM and Chrysler models. We were in that 0.07% bracket and that was after testing more than 14,000 of that particular model.

So you guys have to decide for yourselves what is best for you. Do I think the manufacturers can keep up offering what they are offering right now? No, I don't. BMW has already recalled 1.605 million vehicles and they are probably going to have to recall even more than that between now and Dec. 2019 but that new addition will be spread out between May 2016 and December 2019 according to the NHTSA. I guess we will just to wait to see how that is managed. Those cars are older than the ones already recalled. Should those drivers be freaking out more than some of you guys? I don't know. I guess we'll have to ask them. At the same time we should ask the other gazillion drivers who already have recalls why they didn't go down and ask for a cheapy rental car instead of their X5 even though they have to continue paying for their X5?

Not a single reported injury from a defective Takata airbag inflator has been reported to BMW over the past 10 years. I'm not sure when BMW started using Takata airbags but perhaps it's no longer than 15 or 16 years? I really don't know.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jhm5 said:


> Ninong, what makes you think the replacement airbags in the March 2016 recall "will probably be here no later than next spring or summer at the very latest.?"
> 
> I have a 2002 E46 still awaiting a driver's airbag in the July 2015 recall. Latest word is I might get a letter this coming summer explaining when that airbag will be available. This E46 already had the recalled passenger airbag replaced in 2013.


It's possible your car was one of the ones that BMW was under an order from the NHTSA to have adequate parts available no later than March 31, 2016 but the supplier who was working with BMW to develop replacement modules ran into testing difficulties and production of those has been delayed. The NHTSA granted BMW an extension until Aug. 31, 2016 to have those on hand. The problem with those, as I understand it, is that the other airbag manufacturers no long make that particular model, so it had to be designed and tested before it could be used. Failing that, the only remaining option would be to install a "fresh" Takata airbag with an inflator containing "fresh" ammonium nitrate and then, later on, recall that car again and take out that Takata ammonium nitrate inflator and stick in an inflator without ammonium nitrate.

So, if your car is one of those, then that's your situation. They might have to use a Takata inflator with ammonium nitrate if they can't develop one of their own by August 31, 2016. I'm not up to date on that other that what I have read online and that's the same stuff you could read if you google it like I did. Good luck. You're still driving your car, right? Just wondering. I certainly wouldn't be worried about it but I was just wondering.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

MRCW said:


> Just a quick update...just got a copy of the rental charge for my 5 Series enterprise car provided by BMWNA...just s hair over $2,800 for the month


Any if anyone who is interested in such things multiplies that by the number of potential BMW drivers who have received recall notices, he will see that it becomes an astronomical number.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> I'm assuming they paid for the insurance as well, right? We got a bill from Enterprise where insurance was charged to our card on file with them, not BMWNA.


BMW's instructions to the dealer tell him that they will approve a maxium of $64/day PLUS insurance on a BMW rental car or $44/day PLUS insurance on a non-BMW rental car.

BMW has partner agreements with Hertz and Enterprise. That's about all I know. I don't know what the various rental car companies charge in various areas of the country. I just know that BMW has a limit to what they will pay.

In your case, it is very clear that insurance will be paid by BMW in addition to the allowable daily rate. I would call the rental car company and demand that they remove that charge from your account.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Ninong said:


> You are the first Bimmerfester, but perhaps not the only one, to say that he tried to cut a deal and it just didn't work out the way he hoped. _Your only option would be to check another dealer to see if you can do a little better._
> Good luck if you try elsewhere.


I worked out a great deal with Pacific BMW trading in a Takata affected X5. Pacific, however, wasn't the first (or second) dealer I contacted to negotiate a trade on a 535xi or 550xi. A large Penske dealership and a Sonic dealership either didn't understand the Trade Benefit Toolkit NA provided, or elected not use it. Nothing in the NA toolkit is mandatory for the dealership to employ, so you may very well need to shop around to find a dealer who wants to play ball.

We live in Montana and there aren't any BMW dealerships in the State, so we had to travel to work out a deal. You fish where the fish are, so we went to SoCal to cut a good deal.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Isn't BMW supposed to pay for that insurance?


Yes.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> that's what we thought. I've asked the SM at our dealership to look into it but I think I will call Enterprise myself since I'm not positive he will do anything about it.


Call Enterprise and demand that they remove it from your account and add it to the daily rate (or weekly or monthly or whatever they're using) they are billing the dealer. I am assuming Enterprise is billing the dealer and then the dealer is being reimbursed by BMW, because that's the way it's supposed to work.

In the meantime, do not delay. Call Enterprise immediately and demand that they remove the insurance charge from your account. Don't even bother talking to the dealer. Let them figure it out on their end. Your situation is this: You're not paying it. Period. End of story. Make sure they understand that loud and clear.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> I worked out a great deal with Pacific BMW trading in a Takata affected X5. Pacific, however, wasn't the first (or second) dealer I contacted to negotiate a trade on a 535xi or 550xi. A large Penske dealership and a Sonic dealership either didn't understand the Trade Benefit Toolkit NA provided, or elected not use it. Nothing in the NA toolkit is mandatory for the dealership to employ, so you may very well need to shop around to find a dealer who wants to play ball.
> 
> We live in Montana and there aren't any BMW dealerships in the State, so we had to travel to work out a deal. You fish where the fish are, so we went to SoCal to cut a good deal.


*Thanks* for going over that here for the benefit of other Bimmerfesters to read. Fortunately for you, you discussed this situation with someone else who advised you that there were options available to the dealer to make this a less bitter pill for him to swallow if he just made a little effort.

Your deal was obviously so good that it can't even be posted on here because then others would expect the same and that's not a reasonable expectation. You had a lot of things going for you, including the fact that you chose a very special car (Individual interior leather) that was loaded with options that was previously a special order for a customer who backed out. That stuff happens sometimes in California where all deposits are fully refundable. So you got a fantastic deal on that car and it was something they would have been more than willing to give you even as a cash deal.

After that was the fact that your trade-in was immaculate with low miles on it. Then we have to throw in the fact that in addition to every trick in the book, using absolutely every benefit available to the dealer, you qualified for the Owner Loyalty Waiver benefit that no longer applies this month. Lastly, you worked with a very experienced Bimmerfest sponsor who was willing to give you a great deal... much, much better than those other guys.

*The moral of that story is try, try again*. Dealers are nervous about these deals. Some of the larger dealers in Southern California already have hundreds of Takata airbag trade-ins that they now own but can't sell. They don't know if they're doing the right thing or not when they agree to take in one more Takata airbag car that they can't sell. Every time they ask BMW when they will get the parts, they get the same song and dance. Maybe later this summer. Hopefully. We'll let you know.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

dkreidel said:


> I worked out a great deal with Pacific BMW trading in a Takata affected X5. Pacific, however, wasn't the first (or second) dealer I contacted to negotiate a trade on a 535xi or 550xi. A large Penske dealership and a Sonic dealership either didn't understand the Trade Benefit Toolkit NA provided, or elected not use it. Nothing in the NA toolkit is mandatory for the dealership to employ, so you may very well need to shop around to find a dealer who wants to play ball.
> 
> We live in Montana and there aren't any BMW dealerships in the State, so we had to travel to work out a deal. You fish where the fish are, so we went to SoCal to cut a good deal.


The Penske and Sonic dealers around here also do not participate much, there is no news if Autonation is more receptive than the other chains or not.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

socal59 said:


> What I find as difficult to understand is, why hasn't this been fixed sooner? Here is a MY 2002 vehicle, waiting for an airbag fix, with no end in sight? When this type of action by manufacturers drags on for longer than a decade, one has to wonder what will change their action/behavior? What will make/force customers to obtain legal action to get things done? This is inexcusable.


An excellent question, right? Maybe we need to ask Takata and Honda and Toyota why they violated U.S. law and failed to report all those injuries and fatalities to the NHTSA over the years. Honda settled its first fatality lawsuit in 2004 for an accident that happened in 2002. Toyota began settling injury claims in 2007. All three of those have been fined the maxium allowed by U.S. law by the NHTSA.

How would BMW know? They have not received a single report of an injury in a BMW from a defective Takata airbag inflator. Neither has Mercedes or several other of the 17 manufacturers now on the NHTSA hit list.

Don't worry, you will be pleased to know that just last year Honda in Tokyo expressed shock that their U.S employees were not complying with U.S. reporting laws and vowed to open an internal investigation immediately to discover how that could happen to make sure it never happens again. And O.J. is still looking for the real killer.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The Penske and Sonic dealers around here also do not participate much, there is no news if Autonation is more receptive than the other chains or not.


Never forget that most chains establish guidelines for their stores. Some allow their general managers more autonomy than others but, in general, chain stores must operate based on orders from headquarters. In Dick's case, he didn't deal with a chain dealer.

In the case of AutoNation in particular, just last month Mike Jackson finally came clean and admitted that he was sending "all brands" of recalled cars that couldn't be fixed to the auction with a notice on the windshield that they had an unrepaired recall and that the buyer assumed all liability for the car. In February he denied that but last month he said they had been going it since December 2015. So there. I guess that's one way to deal with the problem of where to put all those recalled cars that you can't sell that Mike complained so loudly about in February.

Somebody like CarMax is gobbling up all those Takata airbag cars at auction at distressed prices and then selling them on their lots. Remember the law doesn't apply to used car dealers or rental car companies. CarMax tells all their customers to register their car with the manufacturer to be informed of any recalls.


----------



## WDC330i (Feb 2, 2002)

Ninong said:


> If you're in Georgia, you're in a state that will have priority for replacement modules ahead of people who do not live in one of the Gulf Coast states or Georgia and South Carolina. However, BMW is struggling to get adequate replacements right now, especially for certain module models that the other manufacturers haven't been making recently. No one in their right mind should want to buy any replacement modules from Takata. At least I wouldn't, would you?
> 
> What car do you have a recall notice on?


Both my 2009 X5 and my 2012 328iT. I'm not especially worried about it, but I'd like to see evidence of progress on the issue.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

WDC330i said:


> Both my 2009 X5 and my 2012 328iT. I'm not especially worried about it, but I'd like to see a evidence of progress on the issue.


Absolutely! And so would your dealer.

Unfortunately there were 28.8 million other recalled Takata airbags (about to be 64-69 million) in the U.S. alone -- the worldwide total at the time was estimated to be 60 million. Takata used to be the largest manufacturer of airbags (AutoLiv is now the largest).

There is only so much worldwide capacity for making replacement modules, especially since all of the other airbag manufacturers experienced a sudden surge in new airbag business following the public disgrace of the Takata company. We can all jump up and down and yell at the dealer or BMW all we want but there is no way they can spit these things out any faster. AutoLiv added 12 brand new production lines at their plants in different parts of the world just to make replacement modules. That's in addition to the fact that they had to ramp up production of airbags to meet the new demand.

The NHTSA has already announced that they will add 35-40 million more Takata airbags to their recall list and they are demanding that all of those be replaced starting in May 2016 and being finished no later than December 2019. They have also stated on their website that they have given Takata until December 31, 2019 to PROVE to them that all of their remaining frontal airbags (the ones with a desiccant) and all of their side airbags are safe, otherwise they will add another 50 million Takata airbags to their recall list.

If all Takata airbags worldwide are recalled, that number would be 287.5 million airbags.



P.S -- I found evidence of progress for you in the same place you can find it, on the NHTSA website: http://icsw.nhtsa.gov/safercar/rs/takata/ According to their tally, 8,168,860 Takata airbags have been repaired to date. Just another 60 million, give or take a million, left. Until they add 50 million more in 2020.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Pulled this one from another thread:



Ninong said:


> ... Nothing BMW and Mercedes are offering right now makes sense long-term because too many customers are coming in trying to get replacement transportation or trade in their Takata airbag cars that can't be fixed. I haven't tried to find out what the others are doing because I'm really not interested in them.


Just a fun fact ... he nearby Honda reports 300 recall cars in their garage.

~M~


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

Ninong said:


> It's possible your car was one of the ones that BMW was under an order from the NHTSA to have adequate parts available no later than March 31, 2016 but the supplier who was working with BMW to develop replacement modules ran into testing difficulties and production of those has been delayed. The NHTSA granted BMW an extension until Aug. 31, 2016 to have those on hand. The problem with those, as I understand it, is that the other airbag manufacturers no long make that particular model, so it had to be designed and tested before it could be used. Failing that, the only remaining option would be to install a "fresh" Takata airbag with an inflator containing "fresh" ammonium nitrate and then, later on, recall that car again and take out that Takata ammonium nitrate inflator and stick in an inflator without ammonium nitrate.
> 
> So, if your car is one of those, then that's your situation. They might have to use a Takata inflator with ammonium nitrate if they can't develop one of their own by August 31, 2016. I'm not up to date on that other that what I have read online and that's the same stuff you could read if you google it like I did. Good luck. You're still driving your car, right? Just wondering. I certainly wouldn't be worried about it but I was just wondering.


Yes, I'm still driving the E46, given that no BMW airbag has spewed shrapnel, I am not alarmed. But the car is old. And it's the old airbags that are the problem. I also have a 2013 E92 in the March recall. Still driving that car, too, not worried. I'm more concerned that if I want to trade or sell either of these in the next year or so, I will face the problems discussed by most of the contributors to this topic. I can't really blame BMW, but I do hope they keep us informed about progress.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Pulled this one from another thread:
> 
> Just a fun fact ... he nearby Honda reports 300 recall cars in their garage.
> 
> ~M~


One BMW dealer (you can probably guess which one) already has 500 traded-in X5's awaiting parts already. How many more can he take in before throwing his hands up? His chain does not allow running them through the auction. Personally I don't agree with what AutoNation is doing but that's their business. BMW cannot legally stop them, as far as I know. Maybe they can apply pressure in other ways but that chain is the largest in the country. And they have a lot of BMW locations.

Just for the benefit of others. BMW can stop a dealer from selling a new car or a CPO car that is on the recall list but they can't stop him from wholesaling a used car that has not been CPO'd. So if a dealer like AutoNation were to take in your car as a trade in and then decide to run it through the auction instead of keeping it until it is fixed, I don't think BMW can stop him. They can probably stop him if he were dumb enough to try to retail that car as a non-CPO car off his own used car lot. That's something that would really freak them out and they would probably claim he's violating his franchise agreement in some way.

The only reason BMW can stop the dealer from selling a CPO car is because of rulings from the FTC regarding the way those cars are advertised as being fully checked out, etc. It has nothing to do with the law that governs the NHTSA and their recall list. Just a couple of months ago the FTC got a ruling against GM and two large national chains for selling CPO cars with open recalls on them. That's a no-no according to the FTC.

The entire law on this stuff really needs to be amended to include used cars but Congress won't take up that bill for a vote because Democrats want it but Republicans call it more unnecessary government regulation. They don't like government regulation because it's against their religion. Democrats also want to increase the fine for violators of the NHTSA's reporting law from $25 million to $300 million but the Senate doesn't want to talk about that for the same reason -- just more unnecessary government regulation designed to hurt big business. Remember, "corporations are people, too, my friend" and they should be allowed to do as they please without government regulations to get in their way.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

Ninong said:


> BMW's instructions to the dealer tell him that they will approve a maxium of $64/day PLUS insurance on a BMW rental car or $44/day PLUS insurance on a non-BMW rental car.
> 
> BMW has partner agreements with Hertz and Enterprise. That's about all I know. I don't know what the various rental car companies charge in various areas of the country. I just know that BMW has a limit to what they will pay.
> 
> In your case, it is very clear that insurance will be paid by BMW in addition to the allowable daily rate. I would call the rental car company and demand that they remove that charge from your account.


This is the deal i have...they are paying rental, insurance and taxes.


----------



## paul325740 (Jul 17, 2006)

Ninong said:


> One BMW dealer (you can probably guess which one) already has 500 traded-in X5's awaiting parts already. How many more can he take in before throwing his hands up? His chain does not allow running them through the auction. Personally I don't agree with what AutoNation is doing but that's their business. BMW cannot legally stop them, as far as I know. Maybe they can apply pressure in other ways but that chain is the largest in the country. And they have a lot of BMW locations.
> 
> Just for the benefit of others. BMW can stop a dealer from selling a new car or a CPO car that is on the recall list but they can't stop him from wholesaling a used car that has not been CPO'd. So if a dealer like AutoNation were to take in your car as a trade in and then decide to run it through the auction instead of keeping it until it is fixed, I don't think BMW can stop him. They can probably stop him if he were dumb enough to try to retail that car as a non-CPO car off his own used car lot. That's something that would really freak them out and they would probably claim he's violating his franchise agreement in some way.
> 
> ...


Ninong'
I hope is not my dealer that I about to trade-in


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

paul325740 said:


> Ninong'
> I hope is not my dealer that I about to trade-in


No, because I was speaking about a very large dealership in Southern California.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Ninong said:


> Personally I don't agree with what AutoNation is doing but that's their business. BMW cannot legally stop them, as far as I know. Maybe they can apply pressure in other ways but that chain is the largest in the country. And they have a lot of BMW locations.


Personally, I like what AutoNation is doing. I think it is a bit silly not to sell cars with this airbag recall given the repair is probably 1-2 years away.


----------



## tarx3 (Jan 16, 2007)

I have an Enterprise rental with all insurances included.

I thank my dealer. The rental is a new x5.
They have no idea when my airbag will be fixed.

BTW. I am self storing my x3.
BMW has too many stored on site.


----------



## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

I have 2 bmws with airbag recalls, one of them I bought new but neither will qualify for a rental due to age, am I worried? no the rentals probably have bad airbags too

I hope they do not amend the law to include used cars, this recall would bankrupt small dealers


----------



## tarx3 (Jan 16, 2007)

mrblahh said:


> I have 2 bmws with airbag recalls, one of them I bought new but neither will qualify for a rental due to age, am I worried? no the rentals probably have bad airbags too
> 
> I hope they do not amend the law to include used cars, this recall would bankrupt small dealers


I never heard age was a qualifier for a rental.


----------



## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

I thought I read it was 2012 + for rentals, my 135i is a 2008 and the x5 is a 2011

not that I want one, I'm autocrossing the 135i in a couple weeks I dont want to autocross a rental


----------



## tarx3 (Jan 16, 2007)

mrblahh said:


> I thought I read it was 2011 + for rentals, my 135i is a 2008 and the x5 is a 2011


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

adgrant said:


> Personally, I like what AutoNation is doing. I think it is a bit silly not to sell cars with this airbag recall given the repair is probably 1-2 years away.


Believe it or not, I agree with you 100% but we have to face the fact that BMW wants their dealers to CPO late model BMW trade-ins before retailing them. And they positively do not want their dealers ever retailing a car with an open Takata airbag recall on it. I know the law, as presently written, only applies to new cars and BMW's leverage on them for used cars only extends to CPO cars thanks to the Federal Trade Commission, not the Department of Transportation.

So, in theory, a dealer could even retail a used BMW with an open Takata airbag recall as long as he informed the customer of the situation but BMW has instructed them not to do that. AutoNation is not retailing any of them but they did admit that they are sending "all brands" of trade-ins with open recalls, both Takata airbags and Dieselgate, to the auction with a big notice on the windshield that the buyer assumes all liability. You or I would see that as an excellent opportunity to possibly pick up a 2013 X5 at a distressed price just because it has an airbag that will have to be replaced once the parts become available and a dealership able to schedule an appointment for you.

We have to realistically look at the numbers so far. We're talking about an average of 4,720 cars per BMW dealer (340 of them in the U.S.) and that's just for the 1.605 million cars already recalled. An untold number of additional BMWs are about to be added to that total and they must be fixed between May 2016 and December 2019. Before that can even begin to happen, replacement parts must be available. Right now they aren't.

BMW gets to decide what's good for the brand and their reputation and their decision is that they do not want their dealers selling any Takata airbag cars until after they have been fixed. I think all the dealers should stick to those instructions from BMW. Sending them to the auction may open up a whole new can of worms for both the dealer (AutoNation) and BMW down the road if anything ever happens in one of those cars. What if the car is sold off a used car lot and maybe the buyer is even informed of that problem but that doesn't mean he will ever take it in to be fixed. It doesn't mean he will remember to tell everyone who ever borrow it. It doesn't even mean he won't sell it to another person and forget to tell them about the airbag that he never bothered to get fixed because he had a hard time getting the dealer to give him an appointment that fit his schedule.

So there are all sorts of potential problems down the road should anything go wrong in one of those cars with an unrepaired airbag, even if none of them have ever caused a problem so far but who knows what might happen if the car ends up in Miami and then 20 years from now it explodes because no one ever had it fixed. Just because BMW told all their dealers that if they sell one of those cars without fixing the airbag they assume all liability and just because AutoNation seems to think the can pass on that potential liability to the buyer at auction doesn't mean some lawyer in the futures is going to pay any attention to that. Will a jury let BMW off the hook just because they say they passed on liability to the dealer?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mrblahh said:


> I thought I read it was 2012 + for rentals, my 135i is a 2008 and the x5 is a 2011
> 
> not that I want one, I'm autocrossing the 135i in a couple weeks I dont want to autocross a rental





tarx3 said:


> Maybe it's dealers choice.


It's 2012 and newer for a BMW loaner, if available, or a BMW rental, if available, or another rental car. The maximum daily amount BMW will reimburse is $64/day + insurance for a BMW rental or $44/day + insurance for a non-BMW rental. I guess if the dealer can find a rental car company willing to let the customer have a BMW rental for $44/day + insurance then that's between the rental car company and the customer. Sometimes they give free upgrades. What I have heard from a couple of sources is that the local rental agencies are out of BMW rentals already. I know most dealers are out of available BMW loaners. They must keep a certain number of BMW loaners to operate their service department.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Ninong said:


> So there are all sorts of potential problems down the road should anything go wrong in one of those cars with an unrepaired airbag, even if none of them have ever caused a problem so far but who knows what might happen if the car ends up in Miami and then 20 years from now it explodes because no one ever had it fixed. Just because BMW told all their dealers that if they sell one of those cars without fixing the airbag they assume all liability and just because AutoNation seems to think the can pass on that potential liability to the buyer at auction doesn't mean some lawyer in the futures is going to pay any attention to that. Will a jury let BMW off the hook just because they say they passed on liability to the dealer?


If BMW was that worried about being sued, it would just buy back the affected cars. It won't do that because the cost of doing so is greater than the legal liability. OTOH AutoNation has to act in it's own best interests, not BMW's.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

adgrant said:


> If BMW was that worried about being sued, it would just buy back the affected cars. It won't do that because the cost of doing so is greater than the legal liability. OTOH AutoNation has to act in it's own best interests, not BMW's.


You're kidding, right? How can BMW buy back the 1.605 million cars that have already been recalled in the U.S. (I believe about 24% have been fixed) plus the possibly millions more that will be added to the recall list next week?

BMW's sales for all of 2015 in the U.S were 346,000 cars and that was the sixth straight record year. So 1.605 million cars equals nearly 5 years worth of total annual sales. Add in a potential million or two or three more and we're up to somethere between 3-5million cars, or roughly 10 years of total sales in this country.

None of this stuff makes sense. Just because the NHTSA puts 60 million cars on their recall list and threatens to add another 50 million in 2020 doesn't mean there are 100 million rental cars available either. I talked to two different guys at two different BMW dealers in different cities more than 50 miles apart and both of them told me the same thing. They don't have any replacement parts on hand right now to fix any of the currently outstanding recalled cars and their local rental car agencies have cut off car dealers from sending them Takata air bag customers because they are out of available rental cars, period. They can't get any more and they must keep a certain number of rental cars available just to stay in business as a rental car company.

That's why it will be interesting to see what happens once the NHTSA lists the additional 35-40 million cars that they said last Wednesday would be added and that must all be repaired between May 2016 and December 2019 in addition to the rest of the previously recalled 29 million Takata airbags, of which approximately 21 million remain to be fixed. And once again the NHTSA reiterated on their website last week that Takata has until Dec. 31, 2019 to prove to them that all of the remaining frontal air bags (the ones with a desiccant) as well as all of the side air bags are safe or they will issue a recall of another 50 million.

Nobody can waive a magic wand and make 55-60 million rental cars suddenly appear. That's what would be needed if all of the remaining unrepaired cars plus all of the new ones about to be added to the list decided they wanted a rental. And none of the car manufacturers can buy back all of the Takata air bag cars.

P.S. -- Besides the cash incentives and other incentives that BMW offers the dealers if they take in a Takata air bag car in trade, they pay them a monthly allowance of several hundred dollars per car for as long as the car is in stock awaiting parts to fix it. I think the problem that is worrying some dealers, like AutoNation, is that some large dealership locations now have several hundred Takata trade-ins in inventory that can't be sold and can't be fixed and even though they are receiving assistance from BMW, they have to wonder how they will sell that many cars through their used car operation over and above all the usual trade-in business. Sure, they can all cut the prices drastically but will that suddent double or triple their usual used car sales volume? And how much will they lose doing that?

There are only so many buyers out there looking to buy a car, new or used, at any given point in time. The demand for used cars will not suddenly jump three or four times its usual volume just because the prices are down.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

It's a conspiracy, man...


----------



## Cjs2002 (Jun 23, 2013)

Has anyone confirmed that some F30s are now on the list? I checked my 2013 328i Xdrive and it isn't there


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

Are F15 X5 still using takata?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

To re-quote post#587(and that was before the additional 35-40m cars).



namelessman said:


> Ninong said:
> 
> 
> > It is definitely unchartered territory. What's not new is having customers in a situation beyond the control of the dealership.
> ...


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Cjs2002 said:


> Has anyone confirmed that some F30s are now on the list? I checked my 2013 328i Xdrive and it isn't there


The NHSTA list does not seem to be updated yet, so there is still hope.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

Ninong said:


> You're kidding, right? How can BMW buy back the 1.605 million cars that have already been recalled in the U.S. (I believe about 24% have been fixed) plus the possibly millions more that will be added to the recall list next week?


Obviously they can't buy them back but neither can they (or should they) prevent AutoNation from selling cars it owns. That would be asserting ownership rights over cars they do not own.

OTOH the CPO limitation is completely reasonable. BMW should not certify a car with a safety defect.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> The NHSTA list does not seem to be updated yet, so there is still hope.


I've read that the latest list will be announced on or about May 16th. NHTSA is conferring with the manufacturers on an agreement for the recall.

For example, Tesla has cars that will be on the list. But Tesla at this time is not going to recall any cars (http://electrek.co/2016/05/05/tesla-takata-air-bag-recall/):

_"Tesla has not issued a recall notice, and has no immediate plans to do so. We will work with NHTSA to determine when and whether such a recall will be required in order to continue to ensure the safety of our customers."
_

BMW should learn a lesson from them. There is a huge risk gap between a 2006 E90 that's been driven exclusively in the Gulf Coast States and a 2013 E92 that's had 3 years on the road in Seattle.

But NHTSA and BMW lumped them together in the recall. And the mad dash for replacement cars ensued.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

adgrant said:


> Obviously they can't buy them back but neither can they (or should they) prevent AutoNation from selling cars it owns. That would be asserting ownership rights over cars they do not own.


May I direct your attention to the consent decree the NHTSA required BMW to sign? You will find it on page 2 of the fourth attachment to the official NHTSA press release: http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...s-accelerates-takata-inflator-recall-05042016 It requires that BMW *"train dealers on the importance of complying with the prohibition of selling unremedied, recalled vehicles..."*



> OTOH the CPO limitation is completely reasonable. BMW should not certify a car with a safety defect.


The prohibition of selling CPO cars is required by a ruling of the Federal Trade Commission. Just a few months ago GM and two large national chain dealers were required to sign as consent decree because of their violation of that requirement.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I've read that the latest list will be announced on or about May 16th. NHTSA is conferring with the manufacturers on an agreement for the recall.
> 
> For example, Tesla has cars that will be on the list. But Tesla at this time is not going to recall any cars (http://electrek.co/2016/05/05/tesla-takata-air-bag-recall/):
> 
> ...


Tesla is smart to work with NHSTA to identify the high risk cars, esp. that Tesla is really in too deep a financial hole to absorb any financial loss from the airbag recalls.

And it does seem that the mad dash for replacement plus lucrative deals mainly benefit those cars that are not in high-risk categories, e.g. 3-year lease extensions, 2012 and up cars.

BMWNA could have negotiated with NHTSA to narrow down on the recall list and primarily taken care of the high-risk owners with 6+ year-old cars.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> BMWNA could have negotiated with NHTSA to narrow down on the recall list and primarily taken care of the high-risk owners with 6+ year-old cars.


And they *knew* this going into the Feb-Apr months when they started to formulate a plan.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I've read that the latest list will be announced on or about May 16th. NHTSA is conferring with the manufacturers on an agreement for the recall.
> 
> For example, Tesla has cars that will be on the list. But Tesla at this time is not going to recall any cars (http://electrek.co/2016/05/05/tesla-takata-air-bag-recall/):
> 
> ...


We already know what to expect, as far as which cars will have to be recalled beginning in May 2016 because it's spelled out in detail on page 7 of the very first attachment at the bottom of the NHTSA's press release: http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...s-accelerates-takata-inflator-recall-05042016

And yes, their November 2015 mandate, that BMW began implementing a little over a month ago, was issued *before* they completed their own scientific investigation, which was just published on May 4, 2016. You will find that 16-page report in the second attachment to their press release. It very clearly concludes that the problem is caused by moisture being absorbed by the ammonium nitrate propellant and details exactly what the projected time to the beginning of that degradation begins. For Zone A cars it's after 6-9 years. For Zone B cars it's after 10-15 years and for Zone C cars it's after 15-20 years. It's detailed clearly and precisely in the third attachment to their press release and it's only a 2-page attachment for those who would rather not read the 16-page conclusions of the scientific study: http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...s-accelerates-takata-inflator-recall-05042016

It is unfortunate that the NHTSA rushed to order BMW and the other manufacturers to immediately recall all of those cars that are not going to be at any risk at all for the next several years, and even after that only at an extremely small risk, even though the NHTSA's own conclusion now is that cars are safe to drive until they reach their applicable zone limits. It seems to me that those BMW owners who are driving cars that are only a few years old should realize that switching to a cheapy rental car may not be a decition any rational person would make if only they were fully informed, which they certainly won't be if their only source of information is the official recall notice required by the NHTSA.

By the way, in that press release the NHTSA patted themselves on the back for ordering the recall of the previously recalled 28.8 million Takata airbags before their scientific study was finished because that gave them a head start on dealing with the problem and that is certainly correct for those cars, such as those older model Hondas that keep killing people, that tested at a failure rate of 2.16% but I don't believe it was appropriate for the group that tested at only 0.07%, which included BMW and several other manufacturers. Only the older models of those cars from the Gulf Coast states plus Georgia and South Carolina should have been the subject of an immediate recall. All of these newer BMWs that people are rushing to get out of should have been left to last because they are safe to drive!

By law the NHTSA is supposed to conduct a study before ordering a recall but they rightfully concluded that this issue was too critical to the safety of the American public to wait for the conclusion of such a study. Unfortunately they jumped the gun by ordering the recall of so many cars that could have been recalled later and without the necessity of providing replacement transportation for any customer who asked for it. That is already an impossible situation at some dealerships. The rental car companies are refusing new Takata airbag customers because they simply have no more available rentals.

Once the replacement parts reach the dealership, the repair can be made rather quickly. BMW allows the dealer to charge 0.6 hours (36 minutes) to replace the airbag. The removed airbag is then sent back to BMW. Previously the dealer had to explode the airbag first before shipping it but now they have instructions to send them back as is without exploding them first. Obviously when you go to the dealer to have your airbag replaced, a service writer is going to have to write you up and then a dispatcher is going to have to assign the work order to a technician who will have to pull the parts and then fix your car, so your total time at the dealer, assuming everything worked like clockwork will probably be an hour. That assumes they schedule these appointments in an efficient manner and customers show up on schedule. If they can put a few techs on doing nothing but this then each of them might be able to pump out 10 a day. It can't be done by new guys, so it does tie up some of their more experienced techs.

If anyone is wondering why it's taking so long for their dealership to get replacement parts, all they have to do is realize that the NHTSA mandates which replacement airbags go to which manufacturers first and then which dealerships will receive them before others. If you're in Denver, your wait time will be longer than that of customers who live in Houston, New Orleans or Miami. BMW does not control that.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> And they *knew* this going into the Feb-Apr months when they started to formulate a plan.
> 
> ~M~


It does look like BMWNA's focus is on the large number of leases which have definitive return dates. Unfortunately by leaning on lessees BMWNA also creates bad feeling among non-lessees, and all the extra money spent does not help the high-risk owners.

In contrast there is not many Tesla leases(yet), and Tesla owners believe anything that Musk says so it is easier to handle than BMW's case.


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

X5done said:


> Are F15 X5 still using takata?


Anybody? I am about to but an x5. I do not want to be in the same situation I am now with my current x5


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It does look like BMWNA's focus is on the large number of leases which have definitive return dates. Unfortunately by leaning on lessees BMWNA also creates bad feeling among non-lessees, and all the extra money spent does not help the high-risk owners.
> 
> In contrast there is not many Tesla leases(yet), and Tesla owners believe anything that Musk says so it is easier to handle than BMW's case.


I think we're talking about apples and oranges here. Tesla was just added to the list for the May 2016 recall that hasn't even been published by the NHTSA yet. All of those cars are being recalled based on the conclusions of the NHTSA's own scientific testing, which they published on May 4, 2016. Some of those cars will be given immediate priority and must be recalled beginning May 2016 -- this month! You can see exactly which years and where they are located in one of my previous links. So it should be very easy to reach your own conclusions about which model years located in which parts of the country will fall into that zone if they are listed by VIN on this May 2016 recall, but I believe BMW has already given the dealers a heads up on which ones will be recalled.

I don't know how much negotiation was possible for the February 2016 mandate because that was before the NHTSA finished their own internal investigation. I definitely agree 100% that it is absurd for anyone driving a leased BMW, no matter where they live, to be concerned about the safety of their car. It is safe to drive!

One thing BMW dealers are about to find out is whether it is possible for any of the tools in their current Toolkit, that expires June 30, to suddenly disappear. What will be the new tools for those customers driving cars that may be included in the immediate recall beginning this month. Will those customers be told it's safe to continue driving their cars or will they fall into the category of customers entitled to replacement transportation upon request?

Probably more than 95% of the previously recalled BMWs could safety be driven for years before having to have their airbags replaced. It's the ones that BMW was previously required to have replacement modules in stock by March 31, 2016 that should be more concerned than any of the others. Those are the ones that BMW is struggling to develop replacements for that do not have the name Takata anywhere on them.

After searching online for an answer to a question of mine, I was able to learn that Takata didn't switch to ammonium nitrate propellant until "the late 1990's." I hope "late 1990's" means after 1997.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

X5done said:


> Anybody? I am about to buy an x5. I do not want to be in the same situation I am now with my current x5


No one really knows. It's hard to believe that they don't unless all F- and G-models had a wholesale switch in supplier.

That's why we are all waiting to see the new list when it comes out later this month.

~M~

p.s As a reminder to all following this. The lists on our various threads and the NHTSA govt list are the old list. From the web site:

"NOTE: This list does not yet include vehicles in the May 4 announced Takata recall expansion. It will be updated to reflect the expanded recall when this information is available."


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

X5done said:


> Anybody? I am about to but an x5. I do not want to be in the same situation I am now with my current x5


This is a safety recall issue that comes under the administration of BMW of North America. As a current BMW X5 owner, you should call BMWNA and ask them that question. Pose it exactly as you did here and ask them to tell you if they are still using Takata airbags in the X5. Let us know what they tell you.

While you're at it, ask them to tell you when they began using Takata airbags with ammonium nitrate propellant. Tell the your friend has a 1997 M3 and he's wondering if it has a Takata airbag with ammonium nitrate propellant. I have a hunch the person you first talk to won't be able to answer any of your questions but since you have a reason to be concerned, you have a reason to call them and ask them all these questions. I would like to know how they're handling such phone calls.

Thanks!


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> I think we're talking about apples and oranges here.


It's all supposition at this point, but I will be surprised if we *don't* see some F- or G-models on the new list. Takata didn't just stop making those airbags. Honda has already stated that they are aware of MY 2016 models that will be recalled (2014-2016 ILX, for example.)

What NHTSA (again, knit - sah in your head) made more clear based on the research is the general time frame that these airbags might become problematic. As the May 4 Amendment to the November 2015 Consent Order states, *the "Zone C" vehicles 2010 or newer have an expected 15-20 years before the current design would become problematic.*

AND, we have to keep in mind that the very likely short-term solution for the vehicles at the most risk will be a current Takata airbag. They will then fall under the December 2019 deadline for *"All like for like non-dessicated frontal Takata PSAN replacement parts."*

Your 2013 X5, or 2016 for that matter (if it has the current design) will be safe in Zone A for 6 years from date of manufacture, Zone B 7-14 years, and Zone C 15-20 years.

What Ninong for a couple months now has been saying in detail about the research NHTSA has done, NHTSA recent studies have further confirmed.

~M~

p.s. The May 4th Order re-issued the Zones with more detail (states listed) and has a more detailed timeline for replacements.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Are there any G models in production?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Are there any G models in production?


7-series right now. 5 to come.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> What *Ninong* for a couple months now has been saying in detail about the research NHTSA has done, NHTSA recent studies have further confirmed.
> 
> ~M~


Yes, and Ninong would like to quote from NHTSA's own press release the following:

"The acceleration of this recall is *based on scientific evidence* and will protect all Americans from airbag inflators *that may become unsafe*."

"The five recall phases are based on prioritization of risk, *determined by age of the inflators and exposure to high humidity and fluctuating high temperatures* that accelerates the degradation of the chemical propellant."

_*Translation*: Their scientific study, *which was just published May 4*, concluded that all airbags with ammonium nitrate propellant that does not contain a desiccant would eventually begin to degrade given enough time and humidity and would exhibit the sort of failure rates seen in incidents involving injuries and fatalities that Honda and Toyota *criminally* kept secret all these years to *save themselves the expense of a recall*."_

"The science clearly shows that these inflators *become unsafe over time*, faster when exposed to humidity and variations of temperature," Rosekind added.

"This recall schedule ensures the inflators will be recalled and replaced before they become dangerous, *giving vehicle owners sufficient time to have them replaced before they pose a danger to vehicle occupants*."

_*In conclusion*, I would like to remind everyone that *all of the airbags tested* by Takata in May 2015 that resulted in a finding that certain Takata module models included in a group of several brands that included BMW that tested at a failure rate of 0.07% (1 of every 1,429) *all came from older cars previously recalled from the Gulf Coast states, especially Florida, as well as Puerto Rico and Guam*. The most recent recall of 840,000 BMWs was *based on that single accident in South Carolina in December 2015 involving a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup*."_

_BMW owners deserve to know the facts in order to make intelligent decisions!_


----------



## WDC330i (Feb 2, 2002)

I'm wondering if you can retard the process of disintegration by adding a dehumidifier to your garage. I'm doing that anyway, because we store tools there.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> 7-series right now. 5 to come.


Oh, that's right. I was forgetting that the 7-series is a G. I was thinking of just the upcoming X1 and the 5-series. Oops!


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> _*In conclusion*, I would like to remind everyone that *all of the airbags tested* by Takata in May 2015 that resulted in a finding that certain Takata module models included in a group of several brands that included BMW that tested at a failure rate of 0.07% (1 of every 1,429) *all came from older cars previously recalled from the Gulf Coast states, especially Florida, as well as Puerto Rico and Guam*. The most recent recall of 840,000 BMWs was *based on that single accident in South Carolina in December 2015 involving a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup*."_
> 
> _BMW owners deserve to know the facts in order to make intelligent decisions!_


Is there any scientific studies/evidence that BMW's Takata ammonium nitrate airbags are less likely to malfunction when compared to Honda's?

The 0.07% versus 2.14% is from empirical data, but there seems to be no qualitative and quantitative analysis(i.e. scientific studies) to prove that BMW's Takata airbags are safer than Honda's, or is there?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Is there any scientific studies/evidence that BMW's Takata ammonium nitrate airbags are less likely to malfunction when compared to Honda's?
> 
> The 0.07% versus 2.14% is from empirical data, but there seems to be no qualitative and quantitative analysis(i.e. scientific studies) to prove that BMW's Takata airbags are safer than Honda's, or is there?


Yes, the more than 30,000 airbags they tested were removed from a wide range of different models but they were older cars from areas most likely to cause problems because of heat and humidity.

Not all Hondas failed at the same rate. That highest rate was experienced by earlier models of Takata inflators that were used in certain Hondas, for example the Honda Civic. Takata didn't use the same models for all brands at the same time. It seems that almost all of the problems with incidents involving serious injuries were exclusively in Hondas and Toyotas, with all of the fatalities to date (12 so far) being in older model Hondas. That 13th fatality was in a 10-year-old Ford Ranger pickup in South Carolina and it was the basis for the February mandate that added 5 million more, including 840,000 BMWs and 705,000 Mercedes.

Remember, Honda started settling claims in 2004 and Toyota in 2007. Then in 2009, Honda sent a secret memo to Takata asking them to "redesign the inflators to make them safer." Don't forget that this was a conspiracy within a conspiracy. Not only were all three of them failing to report this to the NHTSA as required by U.S. law, but Takata was deceiving both Honda and Toyota, as confirmed by independent testimony before the NHTSA last year. Honda told the NHTSA that "Takata provided them with *misleading and manipulated test results*." The NHTSA agreed. Takata kept blaming it on sloppy quality controls at certain plants (especially that one in Mexico) that they had taken steps to correct. However, Takata is now accused by the NHTSA of hiding and destroying tests that showed very early on that they had a problem on their hands that was not just the result of workers turning off the automatic reject function on the production line when they wanted to boost production to increase their volume bonus (actually happened at that plant in Mexico).

Takata's own testimony before the NHTSA, until the past year, had previously been all about blaming poor storage conditions of the ammonium nitrate at some plants or negligent management of workers at one plant or a design that has since been reworked to make it better -- everything except the new conclusion of the scientific study that it's the ammonium nitrate itself that absorbs moisture over time and becomes unstable in spite of its name: "stable ammonium nitrate." Takata didn't even begin to come clean until sometime last year, once the Dept. of Transportation managed to get S. Takata over here for questioning.

So yes, we now know that all non-desiccated ammonium nitrate can become unstable given sufficient time in certain high heat, high humidity climates by absorption of moisture but apparently some earlier models used in certain Hondas and Toyotas were more likely to absorb moisture than most other models. In other words, if the inflator's propellant capsule itself were 100% perfectly sealed, with no possibility of moisture seeping in, there wouldn't be a problem.

I wouldn't be all that worried about it unless I was driving around in an unrepaired 2001 Honda Civic. :yikes:

P.S. -- Just information for others reading this. Takata reportedly switched to "stable ammonium nitrate" propellant in the "late 1990's to save money." The other manufacturers do not use "stable ammonium nitrate" because they didn't consider it safe enough to take on the risk just to save a little money. They were right, Takata was wrong. Now Takata is destroyed and it's costing the auto industry untold billions of dollars in consequential damages. But nobody will ever go to prison over this unless we get charge them with something like "false advertising," like the FTC is trying to do to VW right now since that's a much more serious criminal act than deliberately designing your engines to pump out up to 40 times the allowable amount of NOx and then lie about it repeatedly to officials of the U.S. government. As you may know, the FTC recently filed a lawsuit against VW charging them with "fraudulent advertising" of their "clean diesels."


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Yes, the more than 30,000 airbags they tested were removed from a wide range of different models but they were older cars from areas most likely to cause problems because of heat and humidity.


That 30000 airbags are samples, or empirical data, but there is no quantitative analysis, which according to wiki is "systematic empirical investigation of observable phenomena via statistical, mathematical or computational techniques".

This is brought up since the 0.07% is quoted a lot on this thread to boost confidence of the Takata airbags used by BMW. However, unless BMW has explicitly provided specs to Takata that are different from Honda's, it is not very comforting to know that any inflator with ammonium nitrate(BMW or Honda or others) can be just as deadly as demonstrated by the fatal accidents.

Now if there is proof(e.g. BMW spec, or scientific studies by NHSTA, etc, etc) that BMW spec asks for extra-strength casing on their own inflators, or the ammonium nitrate composition is different(etc, etc), then it will be a vote of confidence on the 0.07% number.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> That 30000 airbags are samples, or empirical data, but there is no quantitative analysis, which according to wiki is "systematic empirical investigation of observable phenomena via statistical, mathematical or computational techniques".
> 
> This is brought up since the 0.07% is quoted a lot on this thread to boost confidence of the Takata airbags used by BMW. However, unless BMW has explicitly provided specs to Takata that are different from Honda's, it is not very comforting to know that any inflator with ammonium nitrate(BMW or Honda or others) can be just as deadly as demonstrated by the fatal accidents.
> 
> Now if there is proof(e.g. BMW spec, or scientific studies by NHSTA, etc, etc) that BMW spec asks for extra-strength casing on their own inflators, or the ammonium nitrate composition is different(etc, etc), then it will be a vote of confidence on the 0.07% number.


It is absolutely empirical date but it is what I would call "selected against" because the samples tested were not a random sample of all units on the road but selected with a bias toward resulting in the worst possible results. In other words, they were from cars with inflator models previously recalled starting in early 2014 from cars known to have a type of inflator with potential problems because they were involved in actual incidents involving injuries and deaths to the occupants. They were all older cars from the Deep South, especially Florida, as well as Puerto Rico and Guam.

I will give you the exact raw data results from the May 2015 ballistic tests as reported in AutoWeek: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/takata-265-airbag-inflators-ruptured-testing

As you can see, they tested 12,464 airbags with PSDI-4 and PSDI-4K inflators of the type used in BMW and there were only 9 ruptures, which amounted to about 0.07%. All of those are direct quotes from AutoWeek based on their analysis of the test reports. By the way, I have posted that link previously in this thread but this is a very long thread.

The latest study, the official NHTSA investigation, concluded exactly what I expected them to conclude, and that is that the "stable ammonium nitrate" itself is not stable given enough time and enough heat and humidity, coupled with an inflator propellant housing that is not absolutely 100% sealed. The "stable ammonium nitrate" becomes over-pressurized once it absorbs enough moisture and that's only a matter of time and the right circumstances coupled with a housing that is not 100% sealed. That's why the NHTSA is now recalling all of them instead of waiting another 10 or 15 years for the injury reports to start coming in. Many of the cars that caused the most serious injuries were Honda Civics circa 2001.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> It is absolutely empirical date but it is what I would call "selected against" because the samples tested were not a random sample of all units on the road but selected with a bias toward resulting in the worst possible results. In other words, they were from cars with inflator models previously recalled starting in early 2014 from cars known to have a type of inflator with potential problems because they were involved in actual incidents involving injuries and deaths to the occupants. They were all older cars from the Deep South, especially Florida, as well as Puerto Rico and Guam.
> 
> I will give you the exact raw data results from the May 2015 ballistic tests as reported in AutoWeek: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/takata-265-airbag-inflators-ruptured-testing
> 
> ...


As suggested the latest scientific studies of NHTSA is based on empirical raw data available to NHTSA, very likely including the samples dated May 2015, but the NHTSA conclusion did not include any definitive conclusion that the BMW's Takata airbag is safer than Honda's. Do note that the Autoweek's *0.07%* quoted is an *observation* of the data set, not a *conclusion* based on scientific studies.

If one chooses to believe the conclusion from NHTSA's scientific studies(e.g. any ammonium nitrate without desiccant is bad), then one also needs to stop quoting an observation(e.g. 0.07%) from empirical data as a conclusion, because such conclusion is not vetted by any scientific studies(at least not published by NHTSA, yet).


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> That 30000 airbags are samples, or empirical data, but there is no quantitative analysis, which according to wiki is "systematic empirical investigation of observable phenomena via statistical, mathematical or computational techniques".
> 
> This is brought up since the 0.07% is quoted a lot on this thread to boost confidence of the Takata airbags used by BMW. However, unless BMW has explicitly provided specs to Takata that are different from Honda's, it is not very comforting to know that any inflator with ammonium nitrate(BMW or Honda or others) can be just as deadly as demonstrated by the fatal accidents.


What are you talking about? Nobody ever said anything other than that the recall was based on "empirical data" taken from the testing of recalled airbags! No one made any other claims. The investigation carried out by the NHTSA's expert was mostly an examination of that testing data, as well as the tests conducted by a consortium of other manufacturers who were fed up with Takata, Honda and Toyota, and no one ever said it wasn't.

I don't understand why you would even ask about whether "BMW has explicitly provided specs to Takata that are different from Honda?" We're not talking about the same Takata inflator models at all. In fact, that's the problem BMW is facing right now in trying to meet the original March 31, 2016 deadline, which has since been extended to August 31, 2016, and that is that the design of the particular model used for those cars is no longer in production anywhere else other than Takata. At least Takata does have a sufficient supply of replacements available for BMW to use should they get that desperate and should the NHTSA order them to use those on a temporary basis until better ones can be developed.

These things come as a complete package, airbag and all, but the actual inflator module inside the package has to be the correct size and design in order to fit. When the dealership receives the replacements, they remove the airbag from the car and put in the new one and then send the one they removed, unfired, to BMW. They used to have to fire them first but now BMW wants them shipped unfired.

There are several different models that Takata has used over the years. The ones used by BMW were PSDI-4 inflators in the earlier recall and then the ones used by BMW in the most recent recall of 840,000 additional BMW's are PSDI-5 models, the same as the one in that 2006 Ford Ranger pickup. Apparently it either wasn't a problem during the previous testing or there weren't enough of them tested or previously recalled. In fact, the NHTSA now has a copy of the secret memo Honda sent Takata in 2009 asking them "to redesign the inflators to make them safer." All of this mess was the result of three companies, Takata, Honda and Toyota, violating U.S. reporting laws in order to avoid a "costly" (haha) recall at that time. Honda, in particular, was experience most of the injuries and all of the fatalities but they kept that secret from the NHTSA. We will all be relieved to know that just last year the Honda guys in Tokyo expressed shock that their U.S. employees had failed to comply with U.S. reporting laws and vowed to open an internal investigation to find out how that could have happened... and O.J. is still looking for the real killer.

Honda and Toyota have used a variety of different Takata models over the years. In later years they weren't using the ones that tested at a failure rate of 2.16% (1 of every 46 tested). Those are the ones with the highest failure rate. Honda also has some cars that used the PSDI-4 inflators.

So why did you wonder why BMW should need to provide specs to Takata when Takata and BMW and the NHTSA and everyone else in the world knows where're not talking about the same models at all? BMW provides Takata with the design specs of their steering wheels, etc. and Takata designs the airbags using various different inflator models. The particular inflator models used by BMW were not the same as the ones that experience 2.16% failure. That was a different model altogether. Maybe its housing was different in some way that allowed more moisture to seep in? One thing we know they all had in common since the late 1990's and that's the use of "stable ammonium nitrate" as the propellant. And we now know that it becomes over-pressurized if exposed to moisture. So the problem is one of exposure to moisture. Some models apparently were more likely to allow moisture to seep in than others.

Anyway, it is what it is. The recall is based mainly on the testing of airbags removed from older cars in hot, humid climates, in other words, the cars most likely to cause problems sooner rather than later. If you're driving a BMW with an inflator model suspected to become a problem one day, it's helps to know if you're in Zone C (meaning at least 15-20 years before degradation is projected to begin) or Zone A (6-9 years before degradation is projected to begin).

At first I thought you were asking if I understood the definition of empirical data, which seemed an insulting question. Now I see you didn't understand that we're not talking about the same models at all. And no one has ever said this recall was based on anything other that the empirical data gathered from the previous incidents involving injuries and deaths as well as the later data from the May 2015 ballistic tests ordered by the NHTSA. They all contain ammonium nitrate. Therefore all of them have the potential to become a problem if that ammonium nitrate is exposed to moisture. The only thing the testing proved was that the housings of some models were more likely to allow moisture to seep in than others.

Unfortunately, for well over a decade, Takata "provided misleading and manipulated test results" to Honda, according to Honda and confirmed by the NHTSA. On top of that, everybody kept silent and nobody reported just how bad things were getting because doing so might result in a recall.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

By the way, the NHTSA's independent expert did conduct their own testing of the propellant itself and how it responds to moisture and reached their own conclusions based on that testing, which was detailed in their report. That, in addition to the empirical data, formed the basis for their conclusion.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> What are you talking about? Nobody ever said anything other than that the recall was based on "empirical data" taken from the testing of recalled airbags! No one made any other claims. The investigation carried out by the NHTSA's expert was mostly an examination of that testing data, as well as the tests conducted by a consortium of other manufacturers who were fed up with Takata, Honda and Toyota, and no one ever said it wasn't.
> 
> I don't understand why you would even ask about whether "BMW has explicitly provided specs to Takata that are different from Honda?" We're not talking about the same Takata inflator models at all. In fact, that's the problem BMW is facing right now in trying to meet the original March 31, 2016 deadline, which has since been extended to August 31, 2016, and that is that the design of the particular model used for those cars is no longer in production anywhere else other than Takata. At least Takata does have a sufficient supply of replacements available for BMW to use should they get that desperate and should the NHTSA order them to use those on a temporary basis until better ones can be developed.
> 
> ...


Is there any evidence that BMW's Takata airbags are built tougher than Honda's?

To be specific, NTHSA's finding is that ammonium nitrate without drying agent(also known as desiccant) is not good, so any model that uses ammonium nitrate without drying agent is equally likely to fail, BMW or Honda or otherwise. Even though each airbag model is custom fit to each car model, they alll use the same propellent(namely, ammonium nitrate without desiccant) that NTHSA's scientific studies prove to be bad.

Do recall the propellent itself is not fatal, however, moisture-laden propellent with not-so-beefy inflator casing can be fatal, as those casing(which is single-use gun barrel) cannot withstand the increased explosive force of the degraded propellent, and act as a frag grenade upon deployment.

Does BMW's inflator have beefed up specs(i.e. BMW gave Takata more stringent spec than Honda to Takata), such that it can withstand/contain the increased explosive force of the degraded propellent? Or does the BMW spec ask for water-tight casing/housing? If so the 0.07% makes sense. However, NTHSA's conclusion has no indication that is the case.

In other words, there is no definitive statement that the 0.07% observation is conclusive, and it is misleading to keep quoting 0.07% hundreds of times even though there is no scientific study(at least not presented on this thread) to back up any conclusion that BMW's Takata airbags are safer than Honda's.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> The only thing the testing proved was that the housings of some models were more likely to allow moisture to seep in than others.


Is there a link to the scientific study of this proof/conclusion, namely, some inflators have housings that more likely to allow moisture to seep in than others? That will be very interesting information to know.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Is there a link to the scientific study of this proof/conclusion, namely, some inflators have housings that more likely to allow moisture to seep in than others? That will be very interesting information to know.


There is the report of the NHTSA's independent expert of the testing they conducted to reach their conclusion that the ammonium nitrate becomes over-pressurized over time because of the absorption of moisture. Obviously the moisture enters the sealed capsule containing the ammonium nitrate propellant because it is not 100% sealed. Maybe if they had been able to manufacture a capsule that was better sealed against moisture none of this would have happened.

If "stable ammonium nitrate" is not really stable after all, why would anyone want to continue using it as a propellant? This is exactly the reason the other manufacturers refused to follow Takata's lead in the late 1990's when Takata switched to ammonium nitrate because it was cheaper than the alternatives. AutoLiv and others have publicly stated that even though the propellant they use is more expensive than ammonium nitrate, they consider it safer and that is why they rejected ammonium nitrate as a propellant.

P.S. -- If anyone is keeping score, this new addition of recalled airbags that the NHTSA announced on May 4 and that should be published any day now is expected to cost Takata an additional $6.2 billion because it will cause Japan and others to follow suit, raising the worldwide total recalled to 118.5 million airbags. And counting. But who's really counting anymore at this point. Takata's current market cap is well below $300 million and their current assets can't possibly be worth more than about $1 billion, considering the damage that they have done to their brand. They had a market cap of more than $2 billion back in early 2014 before all of this stuff hit the fan. I imagine their assets may have been worth a few billion at some point in the past but they will never be able to pay the cost of this mess that they caused. The various car manufacturers are going to be stuck with that. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...en-rising-to-118-5-million-air-bags-worldwide


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

You know it is possible to formulate a conclusion based solely on empirical evidence, especially it that evidence is extensive and compelling. We know that there were 180 ruptures out of 8,320 airbags tested with PSPI-I inflators (2.2%) and 9 ruptures out of 12,464 airbags tested with PSPI-4 inflators (0.07%). We know that both models use the exact same "stable ammonium nitrate propellant." Therefore, the PSPI-4 inflators are less prone to failure than the PSPI-I inflators.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> There is the report of the NHTSA's independent expert of the testing they conducted to reach their conclusion that the ammonium nitrate becomes over-pressurized over time because of the absorption of moisture. Obviously the moisture enters the sealed capsule containing the ammonium nitrate propellant because it is not 100% sealed. Maybe if they had been able to manufacture a capsule that was better sealed against moisture none of this would have happened.


This article comments that "The Independent Testing Coalition (ITC) blames the airbags' ammonium nitrate propellant, poorly-made inflator assemblies made by Takata to house the propellant, and the heat and humidity that those assemblies allowed to reach the propellant".

So why are BMW Takata airbags less problematic than Honda's? There is no proof of that 0.07% being conclusive, that is, there is no scientific study that shows the BMW inflators to be more heat/humidity sealed(hence less degraded propellent), more beefed up(hence less fragmentation), and/or have less propellant(hence less explosive force) than Honda's.

It is extremely misleading to keep quoting BMW's 0.07% hundreds of times.

http://jalopnik.com/nightmare-takata-airbag-failures-have-three-factors-to-1760850149


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> This article comments that "The Independent Testing Coalition (ITC) blames the airbags' ammonium nitrate propellant, poorly-made inflator assemblies made by Takata to house the propellant, and the heat and humidity that those assemblies allowed to reach the propellant".
> 
> So why are BMW Takata airbags less problematic than Honda's? There is no proof of that 0.07% being conclusive, that is, there is no scientific study that shows the BMW inflators to be more heat/humidity sealed(hence less degraded propellent), more beefed up(hence less fragmentation), and/or have less propellant(hence less explosive force) than Honda's.
> 
> ...


No, it is not misleading. We're talking only about the model PSDI-4 inflators prior to the most recent recall of 840,000 BMWs and only about the PSDI-5 inflators for those 840,000 in the most recent recall resulting from the fatality in that 2006 Ford Ranger pickup in South Carolina in December 2015.

Honda uses PSDI-4 inflators in some of their cars, too. Those cars are not the same cars as the ones that tested at 2.2% failure rate because those were PSPI-I models. This has absolutely nothing to do with any particular brand and everything to do with the inflator models that were used by that manufacturer in his various cars over the years.

BMW didn't use any PSPI-I inflators, otherwise BMW would have been in that batch that tested the worst. The worst that any of the models used in any BMWs tested was 0.07%. There isn't even any empirical evidence sufficient enough to have warranted a recall previously of the PSDI-5 inflators but that last 5 million was added to the recall "in an abundance of caution" by the NHTSA following that 2006 Ford Ranger collision with an unfortunate cow in South Carolina in December 2015.

Should we say anything other than what the evidence shows? We already have tons of empirical evidence that proves that some models of Takata inflators fail at a higher rate than others. Those models were installed in certain cars. Those cars are more at risk of failure than cars with different inflator models.

So yes, BMWs are not as prone to failure as certain Hondas because they didn't use the same model of Takata inflators.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Would it be politically incorrect to point out that there have been 12 fatalities to date in Hondas and one in a Ford but none in any other brand. Also, most of the injuries to date have been in Hondas and Toyotas but none in BMWs or Mercedes or several other brands. BMW and several other of the 17 manufacturers on the NHTSA's recall list have issued public statements that they have received no reports of injuries in any of their vehicles caused by a failed Takata airbag inflator.

They're all Takata airbags. They all contain the same propellant. The only difference is that Takata used several different models over the years and some of those models are more prone to allowing moisture to seep in. Also, Honda stopped using the model that was causing them the most money in claims settlements years ago.


----------



## juliecoleman (May 9, 2016)

*Not sure what to do...*

It has taken me a couple of days to peruse these threads. I am a newbie to this forum and I am looking for some advice. I have an 08 X3 3.0SI that I purchased as a CPO in 2011. I believe the original owner was in the southern region and I have had the car here in Maine for the past 5 years. Although the risk is low I am having a hard time being comfortable with waiting 12-24months for a replacement part, especially since my teenager drives my car. As I see it I am faced with 2 options: 1. having the dealer get me alternative transportation which will likely cost them in excess of $15,000 - $27,000 assuming the new part is out for 12 - 18 months. OR 2. Consider trading in my X3 for a new or CPO car. I am not in the position to buy a new car. I would consider trading for another CPO x3 or X1 but it seems like most of those are also recalled. The dealer does have a couple of low mile 2016 x3 demo's but the price is still close to sticker. I love my 08 X3 but I am not thrilled with the thought of leaving it parked for the next 12-18 months. My initial conversation with the sales person at the dealership gave me the impression they are not motivated to get me into a new/CPO vehicle. I find this surprising since the alternative is them shelling out between $15 - $27K for me to drive a rental. Any advice on what I should do?


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

juliecoleman said:


> It has taken me a couple of days to peruse these threads. I am a newbie to this forum and I am looking for some advice. I have an 08 X3 3.0SI that I purchased as a CPO in 2011. I believe the original owner was in the southern region and I have had the car here in Maine for the past 5 years. Although the risk is low I am having a hard time being comfortable with waiting 12-24months for a replacement part, especially since my teenager drives my car. As I see it I am faced with 2 options: 1. having the dealer get me alternative transportation which will likely cost them in excess of $15,000 - $27,000 assuming the new part is out for 12 - 18 months. OR 2. Consider trading in my X3 for a new or CPO car. I am not in the position to buy a new car. I would consider trading for another CPO x3 or X1 but it seems like most of those are also recalled. The dealer does have a couple of low mile 2016 x3 demo's but the price is still close to sticker. I love my 08 X3 but I am not thrilled with the thought of leaving it parked for the next 12-18 months. My initial conversation with the sales person at the dealership gave me the impression they are not motivated to get me into a new/CPO vehicle. I find this surprising since the alternative is them shelling out between $15 - $27K for me to drive a rental. Any advice on what I should do?


your kind of stuck, unfortunately. You can request alternate transportation, so you would have a loaner vehicle which would NOT be a BMW (given the age of your car). You would still be making BMW payments. You would also need to make sure whatever loaner they gave you was not under the takata airbag recall.

You could just drive your car. Maybe not what you want to do, but definitely a choice.

you could trade your car in and get (up to) a 2k credit toward a new one, given the age of your car. You would most likely get a VERY poor trade in credit on your current car, simply because it is under the airbag recall and BMW cant sell it.

How much BMW is shelling out on you driving a rental does not matter to them, based on a number of posts in this (and other) threads. It may be true, but doesnt matter. In fact, they may not be spending that much because you will still be making your BMW sized payments while driving something much less. your payments will offset the cost of your rental charge at a macro level, so they are not losing as much as you say they are.

You could also sell it to someone like carmax, but you will get a poor offer from them as well.

Shrug.. its just a baaaad situation all around.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

juliecoleman said:


> It has taken me a couple of days to peruse these threads. I am a newbie to this forum and I am looking for some advice. I have an 08 X3 3.0SI that I purchased as a CPO in 2011. I believe the original owner was in the southern region and I have had the car here in Maine for the past 5 years. Although the risk is low I am having a hard time being comfortable with waiting 12-24months for a replacement part, especially since my teenager drives my car. As I see it I am faced with 2 options: 1. having the dealer get me alternative transportation which will likely cost them in excess of $15,000 - $27,000 assuming the new part is out for 12 - 18 months. OR 2. Consider trading in my X3 for a new or CPO car. I am not in the position to buy a new car. I would consider trading for another CPO x3 or X1 but it seems like most of those are also recalled. The dealer does have a couple of low mile 2016 x3 demo's but the price is still close to sticker. I love my 08 X3 but I am not thrilled with the thought of leaving it parked for the next 12-18 months. My initial conversation with the sales person at the dealership gave me the impression they are not motivated to get me into a new/CPO vehicle. *I find this surprising since the alternative is them shelling out between $15 - $27K for me to drive a rental*. Any advice on what I should do?


If they take your trade that they can't resell the BMW dealer is on the hook. If you get a rental BMW corp. pays, not your local dealer. The dealer really has no incentive to take these vehicles in trade. N4S


----------



## juliecoleman (May 9, 2016)

That makes sense that the dealer has little motivation to take on a car that will likely be sitting for a very long time, other than keeping their customers happy. Luckily my car has been paid off for a very long time so at least that would make driving a rental a little more palatable. It looks like the X3's after 2010 are not under the recall. Is there any additional loyalty incentive if I were to find a 2012-2014 X3 CPO other than the $2,000 added to the low $9,000 trade value of my car?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

My Acura dealer in NJ just called me to tell me that airbag part for my 2012 TL (always driven in NJ) will be in 4 weeks and if I wanted a rental while I waited. I declined the rental as I am going on vacation for 3 weeks and won't be in the US when the parts becomes available.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

juliecoleman said:


> It has taken me a couple of days to peruse these threads. I am a newbie to this forum and I am looking for some advice. I have an 08 X3 3.0SI that I purchased as a CPO in 2011. I believe the original owner was in the southern region and I have had the car here in Maine for the past 5 years. Although the risk is low I am having a hard time being comfortable with waiting 12-24months for a replacement part, especially since my teenager drives my car.


Yes, I understand your concern; however, it's always good to know the facts as they pertain to your exact car so that you can make a rational decision. I always start by reading the actual recall report on file with the NHTSA for that car. In this case it's *NHTSA Recall Report 16V-071* Feb. 05, 2016. Number of vehicles potentially involved: 840,000. *Estimated percentage with defect: 0.*

Vehicle: 2007-2010 BMW X3 SAV (X3 xDrive 30i)
Descriptive information: 64,926 vehicles were equipped with Takata PSDI-5 driver-side front air bag inflator.
Production dates: Aug. 20, 2006-Aug. 24, 2010.

Description of the defect: This safety recall involves the driver-side front air bag. Approximately 840,000 affected vehicles were equipped with a Takata PSDI-5 inflator. For the defect description refer to Takata's Defect Information Report , 16E-005.
Description of the Safety Risk: Takata addressed the safety risk in its Defect Information Report , 16E-005.

Description of the cause: BMW does not have independent information on which to base a complete root cause assessment. However, according to Takata's Defect Information Report, 16E-005, its investigation to date indicates that propellant tablets in some of the subject inflators may experience an alteration over time due to several years of exposure to persistent conditions of high absolute humidity. In addition, BMW's review of data provided by Takata about their quality control procedures at the three inflator manufacturing plants pointed to a potential manufacturing variability in PSDI-5 modules manufactured by Takata during a limited production period in Monclova/Mexico and LaGrange/USA, caused by inadequate basic quality standards in production process. Takata also advised BMW that abnormalities in the field occurred only in inflators from LaGrange production and they did not supply BMW with any inflators from LaGrange.

*Chronology:* 
On January 21, 2016, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), announced that Takata, based on the consent order with NHTSA, acknowledged that a defect related to motor vehicle safety may arise in some of the air bag inflators that Takata manufactured for certain vehicles sold in the US. Specifically, in 16E-005 Defect Information Report filed with NHTSA on January 25, 2016, Takata reported that it had determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety may arise in some PSDI-5 inflators.

BMW's review of data provided by Takata about their quality control procedures at the three inflator manufacturing plants pointed to a potential manufacturing variability of PSDI-5 modules manufactured by Takata during a limited production period in Monclova/Mexico and LaGrange/USA, caused by inadequate basic quality standards in production process.

Takata advised BMW that the PSDI-5 inflators at issued were produced at its LaGrange/USA facility and that the PSDI-5 inflators installed in BMW vehicles were supplied from its Monclova/Mexico and Freiberg/Germany manufacturing facilities.

BMW examined its production and manufacturing records in order to determine the number and production range of potentially affected vehicles.

BMW decided in an abundance of caution to conduct a safety recall to replace the frontal airbag(s) on the affected vehicles based solely on the information provided by Takata.

*BMW has not received any reports, nor is BMW otherwise aware, of any injuries or deaths related to this issue.*

*Description of Remedy Program:* The driver's side frontal airbag will be replaced. However, due to the large volume of new inflators needed to repair vehicles, the necessary parts will not be immediately available. As a result, owners of affected vehicles will be informed in an initial notification letter. Once replacement parts become available BMW will send a second notification letter to owners, beginning with older model vehicles located in BMW's previously defined HAH region and expanding accordingly as more parts become available.

How Remedy Component Differs from Recalled Component: The remedy component will incorporate a different inflator.

Planned Dealer Notification: Feb. 05, 2016.

Planned Owner Notification: March 31, 2016.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM497294/RCLRPT-16V071-2911.PDF



> As I see it I am faced with 2 options: 1. having the dealer get me alternative transportation which will likely cost them in excess of $15,000 - $27,000 assuming the new part is out for 12 - 18 months. OR 2. Consider trading in my X3 for a new or CPO car.


You left out the third option: Do nothing and wait for the notification letter telling you parts are available to fix your car.

If by "them" you mean BMW, you are correct. The dealer is reimbursed for the cost of the rental car up to a maximum of $44/day + insurance. That is assuming the rental car agencies in your area are still willing to accept new Takata airbag customers from car dealers. Some locations are already completely out of available rental cars and must maintain a minimum number of rental cars to remain in business as a rental car company.



> *I love my 08 X3 but I am not thrilled with the thought of leaving it parked for the next 12-18 months.* My initial conversation with the sales person at the dealership gave me the impression they are not motivated to get me into a new/CPO vehicle. I find this surprising since the alternative is them shelling out between $15 - $27K for me to drive a rental. Any advice on what I should do?


Remember that when you say "them," you mean BMW of North America. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. When you say "they are not motivated," you definitely mean the dealership and not BMW of North America.

In the United States, under our independent franchised dealer network, the dealer sets the selling prices, not the manufacturer. In this particular situation, you already know that BMW of North America provides the dealer with a $2,000 Trade Benefit on your trade-in _at the present time_, as well as additional financial assistance monthly to cover depreciation and storage costs until replacement airbag modules are received. However, it is understandable that some dealers are struggling with the idea of taking in as many as 1.605 million trade-ins, plus an unknown number more that may exceed that number.

There are only 340 BMW dealerships in the US. That would require each dealership to take in 4,720 Takata airbag trade-ins and that number could grow to what? 6,000 each? 8,000 each? We don't know that yet. What we do know is that none of the numbers make sense. None. At. All. This entire program in not sustainable. There are nowhere near enough rental cars in the US to meet even a tiny fraction of the potential number of customers from all of the 17 different manufacturers caught up in the Takata debacle. In addition to the 20 million remaining from the 28.8 million previously recalled by the NHTSA, there will be another 38 million added any day now. Plus a potential 50 million more in 2020. Some rental car agencies have already cut off all car dealers in their area from sending them any new Takata airbag customers because they are completely out of available cars to rent them and cannot get any more. They must maintain a minimum number of cars to remain in business as a rental car company.

To put things in perspective, BMW's total annual sales in the US for 2015, which was another record year, was 346,023. Just the previously announced recall alone amounts to almost 5 years worth of total US sales. Soon the number may exceed 10 years worth of total annual sales. I hope everyone can appreciate that it is impossible for dealers to take in more than a certain number of trade-ins, just as it will be impossible for them to sell all of these Takata airbag trade-ins in the future at any price because there are only so many people in the market at any given time. You cannot magically expand the pool of used car buyers to 5 or 10 or 15 times it's normal annual volume. That's simple arithmetic that everyone should understand.

Good luck to you in reaching your decision. Good luck to everyone who thinks they know what will happen in their case based on what they think should happen.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

juliecoleman said:


> That makes sense that the dealer has little motivation to take on a car that will likely be sitting for a very long time, *other than keeping their customers happy.*


That should be enough reason in my book ...



juliecoleman said:


> Is there any additional loyalty incentive if I were to find a 2012-2014 X3 CPO other than the $2,000 added to the low $9,000 trade value of my car?


There isn't much going on for that model, and CPO in general. BMWFS is putting all of it's support with low interest rates 0.9%-1.9%

~M~


----------



## juliecoleman (May 9, 2016)

Thanks Ninong for your detailed reply. You certainly know your stuff. 

I did not mention the option of doing nothing because I have already weeded out that option. IF I was in a newer car that had not been in a humid region I may perhaps choose to do nothing and wait patiently however with an 9 year old vehicle that previoiusly lived in the South I cannot in good conscience continue to drive and allow the people in my family to drive with this potential risk. I think we all have different levels of risk tolerance and for me I no longer feel safe.

I understand that BMW North America is not the same as my local BMW dealer but I would think that perhaps they would have the common goal of working together to keep customers happy while simultaneously keeping costs of this recall as low as possible. I would think that the dealer would be a bit more aggressive in getting a customer into a new or CPO vehicle to prevent that customer from driving a rental for 12-18 months. Even though the dealer isn't the one directly paying the $18,000-$30,000 to Enterprise that seems crazy not to take into consideration. 

I love my X-3 and I appreciate having a relationship with a local dealer. I am hopeful that we can work something out that will be beneficial to both of us. I don't think a $2,000 trade benefit is substantial enough to make the purchase option feasible for many of us. It will be interesting how this will all play out. 

I am curious what will happen in 2 years once all of the traded in, recalled BMW's are fixed and back on the market?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

juliecoleman said:


> Is there any additional loyalty incentive...?


No, the owner loyalty incentive expired May 2, 2016. If they decide to reinstate it, that probably won't happen before July 1, 2016.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

juliecoleman said:


> Thanks Ninong for your detailed reply. You certainly know your stuff.
> 
> I did not mention the option of doing nothing because I have already weeded out that option. IF I was in a newer car that had not been in a humid region I may perhaps choose to do nothing and wait patiently however with an 9 year old vehicle that previoiusly lived in the South I cannot in good conscience continue to drive and allow the people in my family to drive with this potential risk. I think we all have different levels of risk tolerance and for me I no longer feel safe.
> 
> ...


In theory and up to a point, yes. this situation is completely unprecedented however. Long term the dealers are not capable of holding on to hundreds or thousands of cars they can't sell, nor will they remain in business long if they continue to pay out on trade in cars as though they could sell them. It is a 3 sided "war" dealers vs. BMW vs. Customers.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

juliecoleman said:


> I understand that BMW North America is not the same as my local BMW dealer but I would think that perhaps they would have the common goal of working together to keep customers happy while simultaneously keeping costs of this recall as low as possible.


Absolutely! But just so you understand, this is a problem that is the full responsibility of BMW of North America. The dealer didn't make the car. The dealer only sold it and the dealer would like to keep all of his customers happy whenever possible. However, this is NOT possible because the numbers involved are astronomical. It's that simple. 



> I would think that the dealer would be a bit more aggressive in getting a customer into a new or CPO vehicle...


All customers think that, right? The dealer is being as aggressive as he wants to be. It's that simple. If your dealer is not as aggressive as you would like, then your only option is to consult another dealer. You get to decide what you consider an acceptable deal and the dealer gets to decide what he considers an acceptable deal. I can guarantee you that it has always been that way and always will be that way unless you want to walk into a Tesla store and pay the full asking price as set by Elon Musk.



> ... to prevent that customer from driving a rental for 12-18 months. Even though the dealer isn't the one directly paying the $18,000-$30,000 to Enterprise that seems crazy not to take into consideration.


It is absolutely, positively crazy! I totally agree. Of course, you're assuming your local Enterprise rental car agency hasn't already cut of all car dealers in that area from sending any new Takata airbag customers to them because they are already tapped out. They cannot handle any more because they cannot get any more rentals and they must maintain a minimum number of rental cars on hand to continue to advertise themselves as a rental car company. Yes, that is happening already.



> I love my X-3 and I appreciate having a relationship with a local dealer. I am hopeful that we can work something out that will be beneficial to both of us. I don't think a $2,000 trade benefit is substantial enough to make the purchase option feasible for many of us. It will be interesting how this will all play out.


It has already played out between you and your local dealer. He made you the best offer he is willing to consider and you don't think it's good enough.



> I am curious what will happen in 2 years once all of the traded in, recalled BMW's are fixed and back on the market?


No need to be curious. All you need to do is be capable of adding 2 and 2. The dealer agrees to take in your Takata airbag affected car and he owns it from that day on. He receives monthly assistance from BMW until the parts are received to fix it but then what? Does anyone really think that a dealer can magically sell two or three or ten times his usual volume of used car sales regardless of the price?

Instead of 2 and 2, here are the numbers to add together: 1,605,000 BMWs already recalled due to Takata airbags, plus an unkown number more that will be added as part of the 38 million more airbags the NHTSA announced on May 4 will be added beginning May 2016 through December 2019. Then, after Dec. 31, 2019, if Takata has failed to prove to the NHTSA that all of their remaining airbags are safe, the NHTSA has informed Takata that they will add another 50 million Takata airbags to the recall list.

I realize those numbers are larger than 2 plus 2 but the arithmetic is the same. Just add them all together and divide by 346,023, the total number of BMWs sold in the US in 2015. Does anyone think it's possible to suddenly take in the equivalent of 5 or 10 years of annual sales?

Here are the total number of people like you who all have a right to ask for a rental car: 20 million remaining unrepaired from the previous 28.8 million recalled Takata airbags + 38 million more to be added any day now that must be repaired beginning this month and completed by Dec. 31, 2019. So let's see, that gives us approximately 58 million people like you who all think they will get a rental car just by requesting one even if there aren't 58 million rental cars in the entire world. And let's not forget the potential for another 50 million. Of course, I'm just talking about the U.S. I'm ignoring the rest of the world.

After the NHTSA adds that additional 38 million airbags to their recall list, the worldwide total is predicted to jump from the current 60 million to 118.5 million with a potential total of 287.5 million worldwide if all national safety agencies should order recalls of all existing Takata airbags on the road today. I wonder how many rental cars there are in the entire world?

If you think those numbers are astronomical, how about these numbers: $6.2 billion! That's the total cost to Takata of just this new 38 million recalled airbags, not counting the previous total of 60 million worldwide. Should all Takata airbags worldwide be recalled, the total cost is project to be $24 billion. Now let's see. Based on current market cap Takata is worth 28.275 billion JPY, or $261 million. It's possible, some analysts say, for Takata's separate assets to be worth, at the most, $1 billion after restructuring. So if we subtract $24 billion from $1 billion we get $23 billion that car manufacturers will never get from Takata. Ever

Takata has set aside a couple hundred million dollars so far to cover the cost of this recall. That's pennies on the dollar. The car manufacturers are going to be stuck with the cost of this recall. Eventually that means higher prices for cars in the future.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> In theory and up to a point, yes. this situation is completely unprecedented however. Long term the dealers are not capable of holding on to hundreds or thousands of cars they can't sell, nor will they remain in business long if they continue to pay out on trade in cars as though they could sell them. It is a 3 sided "war" dealers vs. BMW vs. Customers.


Exactly! It cannot be done no matter what anyone says or wants or expects. It is impossible! And that is exactly what some Enterprise locations are telling all of the local car dealers who want to send them more Takata airbag customers. No more! We have no more cars available to rent them and we can't get any more. That's it. The End.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Would it be politically incorrect to point out that there have been 12 fatalities to date in Hondas and one in a Ford but none in any other brand. Also, most of the injuries to date have been in Hondas and Toyotas but none in BMWs or Mercedes or several other brands. BMW and several other of the 17 manufacturers on the NHTSA's recall list have issued public statements that they have received no reports of injuries in any of their vehicles caused by a failed Takata airbag inflator.
> 
> They're all Takata airbags. They all contain the same propellant. The only difference is that Takata used several different models over the years and some of those models are more prone to allowing moisture to seep in. Also, Honda stopped using the model that was causing them the most money in claims settlements years ago.


The expert report summarizes this concisely:

"There is no way to determine the extent to which any particular installed inflator is safe in the field, so all units of the same design must be considered susceptible to IR(inflator rupture). Another complicating factor is that designs within the affected inflator family are optimized to meet specific vehicle manufacturer mounting and performance requirements, resulting in twenty-plus variants of driver and passenger inflators."

My interpretation of the above statement is that even among PSDI-4/PSDI-5, there are variations among the inflators used, and the difference is a lot more than "prone to allowing omisture to seep in". And without scientific studies of each of these inflators(including BMW's), all of them are subject to failures.

And for the raw data cited so frequently to support the 0.07% number, "9 ruptures were observed in 12,464 tests of "PSDI-4" and "PSDI-4K" inflators", those are part of the 30000 airbags Takata retrieved from recalled vehicles. Is there any document that shows these 12464 tested PSDI-4/4K units are evenly distributed among HAH and non-HAH areas? If those 12464 units are mainly from non-HAH areas then the 0.07% will be meaningless.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The expert report summarizes this concisely:
> 
> "There is no way to determine the extent to which any particular installed inflator is safe in the field, so all units of the same design must be considered susceptible to IR(inflator rupture). Another complicating factor is that designs within the affected inflator family are optimized to meet specific vehicle manufacturer mounting and performance requirements, resulting in twenty-plus variants of driver and passenger inflators."
> 
> ...


It has previously been reported in the automotive media that almost all of the 30,000 airbags previously recalled came from HAH areas. Comments were made to the effect that this was not a real random sample but a sample taken from cars believed to be most at risk. They were recalled in 2014 and in the early part of 2015 prior to May 2015. Takata was ordered to perform ballistic tests on those already recalled airbags and report the results to the NHTSA. The results were much worse than Takata's previous claims to the NHTSA.

The fundamental cause of the problem, according to the NHTSA's investigation, is that the ammonium nitrate propellant will become over-pressurized over time if allowed to absorb moisture. In other words, all of the inflators with ammonium nitrate (that do not contain a desiccant) have the potential to over-pressurize but some models are not as prone to absorbing moisture as other models. Even if the inflator in question is one of the worst performing models, it may still take at least 15-20 years before it might potentially cause a problem depending on where the car is located.

Some models are more likely to absorb moisture than others. All of them contain ammonium nitrate, a propellant rejected by almost all of the other airbag manufacturers as too risky. Ammonium nitrate is what Timothy McVeigh used to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City killing 168 people and injuring more than 680 others.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> It has previously been reported in the automotive media that almost all of the 30,000 airbags previously recalled came from HAH areas. Comments were made to the effect that this was not a real random sample but a sample taken from cars believed to be most at risk. They were recalled in 2014 and in the early part of 2015 prior to May 2015. Takata was ordered to perform ballistic tests on those already recalled airbags and report the results to the NHTSA. The results were much worse than Takata's previous claims to the NHTSA.
> 
> The fundamental cause of the problem, according to the NHTSA's investigation, is that the ammonium nitrate propellant will become over-pressurized over time if allowed to absorb moisture. In other words, all of the inflators with ammonium nitrate (that do not contain a desiccant) have the potential to over-pressurize but some models are not as prone to absorbing moisture as other models. Even if the inflator in question is one of the worst performing models, it may still take at least 15-20 years before it might potentially cause a problem depending on where the car is located.
> 
> Some models are more likely to absorb moisture than others. All of them contain ammonium nitrate, a propellant rejected by almost all of the other airbag manufacturers as too risky. Ammonium nitrate is what Timothy McVeigh used to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City killing 168 people and injuring more than 680 others.


What the media reported is not the same as any documented source, my attempts to locate such documents on NHTSA is unsuccessful at this point.

To take it from the expert:

".... the inflator ruptures occur through the following factors and sequence of events:
(a) Affected inflators are inadequately sealed for protection of the moisture sensitive PSAN-based main propellant;
(b) Allowing moist air to enter the inflator air space; and
(c) Causing damage to the physical structure of the main propellant consisting of the formation of pores/channels.
(d) Over the course of years, the extent of damage progresses by a slow process driven by daily temperature fluctuations.
(e) Then, during combustion, the extremely hot gas enters the pores/channels;
(f) Which causes a transition from layer-by-layer burning to burning en masse that over-pressurizes the steel shell to cause catastrophic failure (rupture) with fragmentation hazard to vehicle occupants."

Another important point made is that some inflators have booster propellant(designated as 3110). The ignition of the booster in turn ignites the main propellant(designated as 2004). The interesting point is:

"The rate of moisture gain in the main propellant is influenced by the booster propellant. Several studies indicate that the booster propellant works like a desiccant, suppressing moisture gain in the main propellant during the early years."

Do the BMW inflators have such booster propellants? If so that is a great booster(no punt intended) to the 0.07% number.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

I was checking Honda's website and they aren't showing the fatality reported in online articles as having been settled in a claim in 2004. It's possible that was an injury claim and not a death claim? The charge that has been made against Honda repeatedly over the past year or so is that they were aware of the problem going all the way back to 2004 but kept it secret. The same articles claimed that Toyota started settling claims in 2007.

All three of them: Takata, Honda and Toyota, were fined the maximum allowed by our laws for failure to report accidents involving serious injuries and deaths. Honda and Toyota have both testified before the NHTSA that Takata provided them with "misleading and manipulated test results." That assertion seems to have been confirmed by other testimony before the NHTSA. That would not, however, excuse them from reporting these incidents to the NHTSA as required by law.

This Car and Driver article from Sept. 2014 is typical of others at the time alleging that Takata and Honda conspired to keep this problem secret: http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-...eaths-injuries-from-exploding-airbag-recalls/ The same charge was made against Toyota by the NHTSA.

Honda's official website shows fatalities going back 7 years ago (2 fatal accidents in 2009). Right now they are still showing just 9 fatalities in Hondas but that's just in the US. There are 3 in Malaysia, bringing the total Honda fatalities to 12, plus that Ford Ranger, makes 13. http://hondaairbaginfo.com/

The discouraging thing about many of those fatalities is that the cars involved had been sent recall notices years ago. All three of the fatal accidents in Malaysia were cars already on recall at the time of the accident. Those cars used an inflator model that Honda did not use in the US. Some of the fatalities that happened in the US. like the woman who died in a 2001 Honda Civic she rented from some hole-in-the-wall rental car outfit, had been on recall for years. That last car I mentioned was sent recall notices in 2009 but its owner did not bring the car in for the free repair. That young guy who was killed on March 31, 2016 in Texas was driving a Honda that had been sent recall notices years ago. The only ones like that that I know about were mentioned in news articles. Honda doesn't tell you any of the circumstances on their website. They don't even tell you the model year or model of the car involved. Just the date of the accident and the state.

The Salety Ministry in Japan is not only monitoring the recall notification process performed by the car manufacturers there, it is also making thousands of follow-up calls to ask why certain owners have not yet complied with the notice and attempted to have their car fixed. And if that doesn't work, they are making house calls to insist that the owners comply. This is sort of a national issue with the Japanese government just as VW's Dieselgate is a national issue with the German government. In Japan it involves serious charges against giants of their automotive industry. The same can be said for the emissions cheating scandal that rocked Germany and tarnished their automotive industry's reputation.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Do the BMW inflators have such booster propellants? If so that is a great booster(no punt intended) to the 0.07% number.


I believe the original 765,000 thousand BMWs recalled had PSDI-4 inflators and the 840,000 recalled last month had PSDI-5 inflators.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> I believe the original 765,000 thousand BMWs recalled had PSDI-4 inflators and the 840,000 recalled last month had PSDI-5 inflators.


There is no freely available info about PSDI-4/PSDI-5 propellant compositions. At this point the 0.07% versus 2+% is irrelevant, as those samples and empirical data are digested to arrive at the expert conclusion, which sets the stage of the May 4 updates.

"Conclusion
32. In conclusion, the root cause of the rupturing Takata inflators is moisture damaged main propellant which, over the course of time, transitions to burning en masse during deployment. The investigations have provided additional insight regarding the extent to which propellant damage is dependent on temperature cycling, which feeds both moist air movement into the inflator and the propellant physical damage due to pore formation. The booster propellant forestalls damage by acting as a desiccant, the effectiveness of which varies with climate. Nevertheless the main propellant exposed to moisture will eventually degrade by temperature cycling to the point of risking inflator rupture at an age ranging from six years in regions which feature high humidity and high solar load to twenty-five years for colder regions where humidity is lower and temperature coupled to solar load do not interfere with booster propellant acting as a desiccant to protect the main propellant."


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> There is no freely available info about PSDI-4/PSDI-5 propellant compositions. At this point the 0.07% versus 2+% is irrelevant...


There is overwhelming empirical evidence that PSPI-I inflators are more dangerous than PSDI-4 inflators regardless of the composition of their chemical propellants because out of 8,320 PSPI-I inflators tested 180 failed, whereas out of 12,464 PSDI-4 inflators tested only 9 failed.

You cannot dismiss that solid evidence of a lower failure rate for the 12,464 PSDI-4 inflators by claiming it is irrelevant because you don't know the propellant composition. It doesn't matter. The testing alone of that many samples is convincing proof that PSDI-4 inflators do not fail as often as PSPI-I inflators.

It has been know all along that Takata used ammonium nitrate propellant in all of their airbags. Therefore, one would expect a similar failure rate for all of their inflator models if there were no other factors involved, but there very obviously were other factors involved. Those other factors resulted in a higher failure rate for some models compared to others. The model used in the 765,000 recalled BMWs failed at a rate of 0.07% as published by Takata and reported to the NHTSA, as published in AutoWeek, May 20, 2015. Those models were supplied to Honda, BMW, Chrysler, Ford and Mazda. http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/takata-265-airbag-inflators-ruptured-testing

"Most of the tested inflators that ruptured came from high-humidity regions, namely coastal regions of states lining the Gulf of Mexico, Hawaii and outlying territories including Puerto Rico."

The observed failures from both testing and the 84 on the road ruptures then known were categorized based on the inflator model used in the vehicle. Some car manufacturers installed more than one inflator model in their cars over the years.

BMW's initial recall of 765,000 cars involved the PSDI-4 model and the 840,000 cars recalled last month involved the PSDI-5 inflators. The May 2015 tests reported by Takata to the NHTSA did not list the PSDI-5 inflators as a problem but Takata has since determined that they present a safety risk to the public and should be recalled. That recall of 5 million cars included 840,000 BMWs.

Ammonium nitrate as a propellant was a bad idea that was rejected by the other major airbag manufacturers because it was difficult to store safely and because they didn't consider it stable enough compared to other available, but more expensive, alternatives. They were right, Takata was wrong.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

There are 12464 samples that are collected but there is no easily accessible document that clarify where those 12464 samples sourced from(e.g. HAH or non-HAH). And how many of those 12464 samples are from BMW's? It will be extremely misleading to keep selling this set of data if the nature of the samples are not clearly known. If such clarification exists please post on this thread for reference.

All we know is that the scientific study from NHTSA takes into consideration on all the samples/empirical data and came up with the conclusion as shown in post#1471. The conclusion does not say PSDI-4/PSDI-4k/PSDI-5 failure rate is 0.07%, and it surely does not say BMW's inflator is at 0.07%. If such scientific study does not endorse the overwhelming "observation" of 0.07% like what was repeated hundreds of time on this thread, it will post some doubts in my mind the validity of that "observation".

And do note the concise description from the report:

*"There is no way to determine the extent to which any particular installed inflator is safe in the field, so all units of the same design must be considered susceptible to IR(inflator rupture). Another complicating factor is that designs within the affected inflator family are optimized to meet specific vehicle manufacturer mounting and performance requirements, resulting in twenty-plus variants of driver and passenger inflators."*

Now it can also be possible that by May 16 there will be additional documents and clarifications available to substantiate the 0.07% "observation", it remains to be seen.



Ninong said:


> There is overwhelming empirical evidence that PSPI-I inflators are more dangerous than PSDI-4 inflators regardless of the composition of their chemical propellants because out of 8,320 PSPI-I inflators tested 180 failed, whereas out of 12,464 PSDI-4 inflators tested only 9 failed.
> 
> You cannot dismiss that solid evidence of a lower failure rate for the 12,464 PSDI-4 inflators by claiming it is irrelevant because you don't know the propellant composition. It doesn't matter. The testing alone of that many samples is convincing proof that PSDI-4 inflators do not fail as often as PSPI-I inflators.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> There are 12464 samples that are collected but there is no easily accessible document that clarify where those 12464 samples sourced from(e.g. HAH or non-HAH). And how many of those 12464 samples are from BMW's? It will be extremely misleading to keep selling this set of data if the nature of the samples are not clearly known. If such clarification exists please post on this thread for reference.
> 
> All we know is that the scientific study from NHTSA takes into consideration on all the samples/empirical data and came up with the conclusion as shown in post#1471. The conclusion does not say PSDI-4/PSDI-4k/PSDI-5 failure rate is 0.07%, and it surely does not say BMW's inflator is at 0.07%. If such scientific study does not endorse the overwhelming "observation" of 0.07% like what was repeated hundreds of time on this thread, it will post some doubts in my mind the validity of that "observation".
> 
> ...


*The conclusion of the "NHTSA expert report on the root cause of Takata inflator ruptures" is:*
Conclusion:

In conclusion, the root cause of the rupturing Takata inflators is moisture damaged main propellant which, over the course of time, transitions to burning _en masse_ during deployment. The investigations have provided additional insight regarding the extent to which propellant damage is dependent on temperature cycling, which feeds both moist air movement into the inflator and the propellant physical damage due to pore formation. The booster propellant forestalls damage by acting damage by acting as a desiccant, the effectiveness of which varies with climate. Nevertheless the main propellant exposed to moisture will eventually degrade by temperature cycling to the point of risking inflator rupture at an age ranging from six years in regions which feature high humidity and high solar load to twenty-five years in regions where humidity is lower and temperature is lower and temperature coupled to solar load do not interfere with booster propellant acting as a desiccant to protect the main propellant.​
That is the entirety of the conclusion of the investigation conducted on behalf of the NHTSA as published on their website on May 4, 2016. http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...s-accelerates-takata-inflator-recall-05042016

*"BMW has not received any reports, nor is BMW otherwise aware, of any injuries or deaths related to this issue."*

The initial recall of 765,000 BMWs was ordered by the NHTSA based on the ballistic testing by Takata that showed a failure rate of 0.07% (9 out of 12,464 airbags with PSDI-4 inflators). Those BMWs were recalled because they contained PSDI-4 inflators.

The recall last month of an additional 840,000 BMWs was not based on testing conducted by Takata but it was reported by Takata to the NHTSA that testing done by Toyota found that 4 airbags with PSDI-5 inflators ruptured. The number of airbags tested was not given.

As far as I know, that is the information that has been provided by the NHTSA to justify the recall of 1.605 million BMWs. It would be irresponsible to speculate beyond what has been officially stated by the agency responsible for this action.

The NHTSA has announced that they intend to issue a recall for an additional 38 million Takata airbags (35-40 million reported by the media). That recall includes all remaining Takata frontal airbags without a desiccant. They have not been linked to any injuries or deaths . They haven't ruptured in the field or failed in lab tests. The NHTSA has said they do not present an unreasonable risk to safety.

The May 2016 recall will begin this month and must be completed by December 2019. It will be issued in five waves. I expect that they will issue recalls for the oldest models in areas with hot, humid climates before newer models in more temperate climates.

Everything stated above is factual and based on what has been reported by official sources. Even the statement by BMW that they have received no reports of injuries or deaths in a BMW related to this issue is a factual statement made by BMW Group.


----------



## renaultf1 (Sep 16, 2010)

juliecoleman said:


> I love my X-3 and I appreciate having a relationship with a local dealer. I am hopeful that we can work something out that will be beneficial to both of us. I don't think a $2,000 trade benefit is substantial enough to make the purchase option feasible for many of us. It will be interesting how this will all play out.


I would agree with Ninong, I think the ship has sailed on any sort of negotiation with them. A couple of things I would add. I'm in Maine as well but have twice purchased from Stratham NH (albeit brand new). They were more willing to negotiate and have superb service. They are also a huge franchise so they may be better able/willing to hold cars that can't be fixed immediately. Regarding their service, they will pickup your car, drop off a loaner and then return your car once your service is complete - they do it all over the state - much further north than great Portland. I will say I've used the Maine dealer for service and have had good experiences there but the sales process was never was good...might be improving because they have had a big change when they built the new dealership.

Additionally, I know you said that it seems the 2010 on X3s don't seem to be affected, but I would advise you to wait until the next list of cars comes out that fall under the new recall - I think Ninong wrote somewhere around 5/16. There has been quite a bit of speculation as to whether F & G models might be on that list...you could find yourself in a similar boat if the newer X3s are on the new recall list. I recently purchased a leftover '15 X5 and have a bad feeling it will be on the next round of recalls.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

FWIW right now it is the luck of the draw and informed folks like those on the 'fest that are getting some relief. I think the time has run out...
The way i see my situation...I've got a 2013 x1 35i that i purchased...(don't owe BMWFS) and BMWNA is paying for my 2016 5 series for the duration...
I've reduced insurance to bare minimums which is saving me about $150 per month with my teenager of the policy and not putting 1000 miles a month on the car...this is about $200 to $250 value...

I am getting screwed on warranty but negotiating with BMWNA on extending warranty and maintenance. I live in Florida and i hope my $2800 per month rental cost and being in the hot humid zone will get me a new airbag sooner rather than later...

Need to work with the cards toy are dealt.


----------



## juliecoleman (May 9, 2016)

Thanks for the info on other dealers you have had good dealings with. I would prefer to stay local but the salesperson I initially dealt with in Portland is gone and I am not sure I will have the same connection with the new person I have been talking with. The service is what has blown me away in Portland, always exceeding my expectations. They are putting me into alternative transportation tomorrow and I am hopeful it is not a Kia. 

Good advice about waiting to see what other BMW models and years get pulled in to this recall. Would hate to trade in only to run into the same exact position again. 

I agree with what Ninong states that the equation just won't work out as far as what BMW is offering to their customers however I think MRCW is right in that there is a small % actually paying attention to what is going on. 

I know a few of you had mentioned that the ship has sailed on any further negotiation on a new or CPO but I am not understanding why? I was basically given the same price any person off of the street would be given but the big difference is they won't be spending $20,000 on the guy off of the street. Again, I know that BMWNA is the one footing the bill but wouldn't they be better off helping the dealer sweeten the deal more than $2,000 towards a low ball trade? Now I think about it why wouldn't they make the incentive to buy new or CPO irresistible and encourage us to sell in the private market where the sale would not be restricted?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

renaultf1 said:


> Additionally, I know you said that it seems the 2010 on X3s don't seem to be affected, but I would advise you to wait until the next list of cars comes out that fall under the new recall - I think Ninong wrote somewhere around 5/16. There has been quite a bit of speculation as to whether F & G models might be on that list...you could find yourself in a similar boat if the newer X3s are on the new recall list. I recently purchased a leftover '15 X5 and have a bad feeling it will be on the next round of recalls.


This is what I believe the NHTSA intends to do differently with the upcoming recall of 38 million additional vehicles. Even though they, the NHTSA, know already that they will be recalling all remaining Takata frontal airbags without a desiccant, they will recall them in five separate waves starting May 2016 and finishing by December 2019. The first wave, starting later this month, will no doubt be older models located in hot, high humidity climates (meaning definitely not Maine). If it turns out that you are in the fifth wave of recalls, you won't even know about it for another three years. In the meantime, just keep on driving. 

As I'm sure anyone who has read my comments in this thread knows by now, I consider the risk to BMW drivers to be infinitesimal. People are free to disagree but that is my personal opinion.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

juliecoleman said:


> I know a few of you had mentioned that the ship has sailed on any further negotiation on a new or CPO but I am not understanding why? *I was basically given the same price any person off of the street would be given* but the big difference is they won't be spending $20,000 on the guy off of the street.


Exactly! And that is the purpose of the $2,000 Trade Benefit that BMW gives the dealer. It's something that he can add to his true appraisal of your trade-in with a Takata airbag problem.



> Again, I know that BMWNA is the one footing the bill but wouldn't they be better off helping the dealer sweeten the deal more than $2,000 towards a low ball trade?


You are free to call them directly and explain that to them if you like. I'm sure they always appreciate hearing from their customers. Maybe we can get all 1,605,000 of you to call them?

Maybe if you can convince them that it would be cheaper if they doubled or tripled that cash incentive to the dealer then all 1.6 million of you would rush down to trade in your cars, right? That would be nice, wouldn't it. Don't forget that BMW sold only 346,023 new cars last year and that was a record year. Should be easy for them to handle 1.6 million trade-ins.

Good luck! 

I'm not being sarcastic, just realistic. Besides, you're in Maine, chill out. Seriously.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

MRCW said:


> I live in Florida and i hope my $2800 per month rental cost and being in the hot humid zone will get me a new airbag sooner rather than later...


The NHTSA determines which cars will get the highest priority based on the age of the car as well as its location.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Wow this post has gone almost 20 hours without comment. oops


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

I have an 02 X5 with sport package and live in a HAH area. I wonder if it is about to be added to the list.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> I have an 02 X5 with sport package and live in a HAH area. I wonder if it is about to be added to the list.


If you have a frontal airbag, either side, manufactured by Takata, then the answer is yes. Otherwise, the answer is no. The NHTSA plans to recall the next 38 million vehicles in five waves beginning this month, May 2016, and finishing before December 2019. If your car is in the first wave, it will be on the NHTSA's official recall list. If it is not in the first wave, it won't. At least that is what I expect.

Something should be coming out of the NHTSA by May 16, according to published reports. That is when we will have their official word on what's going to happen.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

It is a takata bag, on the driver side at least. In fact, it is the same exact bag that they put in the e46 that is already on the recall list. I am surprised this one has yet to be recalled, but not much could be done on my end about it until they add it.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> Wow this post has gone almost 20 hours without comment. oops


You may find this amusing. Takata doesn't know if it's their fault or not. And even if it is determined that it is their fault, apparently they may only be responsible for the cost of the repair kit, which is approximately $100. That alone could cost them $9 billion.

*"Once we determine the cause of the airbag defect, then we'll discuss costs with automakers," Chief Financial Officer Yoichiro Nomura said at a briefing.*

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...tructuring-after-posting-loss-on-recall-costs

P.S. -- The NHTSA published the official conclusion of their investigation and reported that the root cause of the problem is absorption of moisture by the ammonium nitrate propellant in the airbag's inflator module, resulting in over-pressurization which can lead to a violent explosion that fractures the module housing sending pieces of metal into the passenger compartment.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> It is a takata bag, on the driver side at least. In fact, it is the same exact bag that they put in the e46 that is already on the recall list. I am surprised this one has yet to be recalled, but not much could be done on my end about it until they add it.


I believe they were supposed to have recalled all of the PSDI-4 inflators in the original recall of 765,000 BMWs and then all of the PSDI-5 inflators in last month's recall of an additional 840,000 BMWs.

No one has said yet -- unless BMW has already given the dealers a heads-up -- how many BMWs will be caught up in the next recall of 38 million more cars but apparently it's taking a few days for the NHTSA to receive the necessary information from the various car manufacturers in order to determine which cars will be in each of the five separate waves.

Only owners of cars in the first wave that begins later this month will receive a recall notification. You can rest assured that if you have a Takata frontal airbag that does not contain a desiccant (a recent improvement), your car will eventually be recalled. And since your car is an "older model" and since you live in a hot, muggy area, you should be one of the first ones recalled.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> P.S. -- The NHTSA published the official conclusion of their investigation and reported that the root cause of the problem is *absorption of moisture by the ammonium nitrate propellant in the airbag's inflator module, resulting in over-pressurization which can lead to a violent explosion* that fractures the module housing sending pieces of metal into the passenger compartment.


The moisture-laden propellant does not over-pressurize, leading to violent explosion.

The moisture cause formation of pores/channels, which disrupt the* layer-by-layer controlled burn* during combustion. Instead the propellant *burns en masse(uncontrolled)*.

"(a) Affected inflators are inadequately sealed for protection of the moisture sensitive PSAN-based main propellant;
(b) Allowing moist air to enter the inflator air space; and
(c) Causing damage to the physical structure of the main propellant consisting of the *formation of pores/channels*.
(d) Over the course of years, the extent of damage progresses by a slow process driven by daily temperature fluctuations.
(e) Then, *during combustion, the extremely hot gas enters the pores/channels*;
(f) *Which causes a transition from layer-by-layer burning to burning en masse* that over-pressurizes the steel shell to cause catastrophic failure (rupture) with fragmentation hazard to vehicle occupants."


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The moisture-laden propellant does not over-pressurize, leading to violent explosion.
> 
> The moisture cause formation of pores/channels, which disrupt the* layer-by-layer controlled burn* during combustion. Instead the propellant *burns en masse(uncontrolled)*.
> 
> ...


That process is the result of "over-pressurization" caused by the absorption of moisture from the atmosphere because it is highly soluble in water. Please refer to the safety data sheet for ammonium nitrate. It has a critical relative humidity of 59.4% above which it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere.

Therefore, it is important to store ammonium nitrate in a tightly sealed container. Otherwise it can coalesce into a solid mass. "Burning _en masse_ results" if exposed to an ignition source. If it burns _en masse_ inside a sealed container, it will explode violently fracturing the container into pieces and sending those pieces outward with explosive force.

The basic chemistry involved in the use of a highly explosive salt as a propellant in an airbag inflator module is to have a controlled burn. You can only do that if the salt has not turned into a solid mass because if it does, it will burn _en masse_ with more force than required for your purpose.

In simple terms, you are increasing the mass of the explosive compound inside the sealed container if it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. You are adding water to the ammonium nitrate salt that you already had inside this sealed container. You have increased its mass. You now have more atoms inside the container than you did previously. The mass of any object is the property that measures its resistance to acceleration. If you increase the mass of a highly explosive salt, like ammonium nitrate, inside a sealed container, you have increased the pressure inside the container because it now contains more atoms than it did before absorbing moisture.

The reason you see this described in the automotive press as "over-pressurization" is because that's the easiest way to explain it and it is, in fact, exactly what happens and it is exactly what the NHTSA's expert is describing except that he is describing it in excruciating detail. We know it forms a solid and he is describing exactly how it does that. Once it's in solid form, we know that it will explode _en masse_ inside this over-pressurized container. If you have more atoms inside the container than you did originally, you now have more pressure inside this sealed container, so naturally it will explode with more force, especially if it burns all at once instead of gradually as designed.

It's really quite simple.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> That process is the result of "over-pressurization" caused by the absorption of moisture from the atmosphere because it is highly soluble in water. Please refer to the safety data sheet for ammonium nitrate. It has a critical relative humidity of 59.4% above which it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere.
> 
> Therefore, it is important to store ammonium nitrate in a tightly sealed container. Otherwise it can coalesce into a solid mass. "Burning _en masse_ results" if exposed to an ignition source. If it burns _en masse_ inside a sealed container, it will explode violently fracturing the container into pieces and sending those pieces outward with explosive force.
> 
> ...


Your description of over-pressurization due to moisture absorption is different from the conclusion of the expert report.

The expert report describes the propellant is physically formed as pyrotechnics that are burnt in circles, from outer to inner ones. My layman interpretation is that the moisture absorbed causes the circles, or layers to be "connected" by pores/channels. The original spec requires the layers to be burnt layer after layer to control the explosive force, but the pores/channels cause the layers to be connected. The simultaneous burning/ignition of all the layers, instead of one after one, cause over-pressurization that exceeds the original spec of the casing/housing, hence the fragmentation.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Your description of over-pressurization due to moisture absorption is different from the conclusion of the expert report.
> 
> The expert report describes the propellant is physically formed as pyrotechnics that are burnt in circles, from outer to inner ones. My layman interpretation is that the moisture absorbed causes the circles, or layers to be "connected" by pores/channels. The original spec requires the layers to be burnt layer after layer to control the explosive force, but the pores/channels cause the layers to be connected. The simultaneous burning/ignition of all the layers, instead of one after one, cause over-pressurization that exceeds the original spec of the casing/housing, hence the fragmentation.


No, it is not different at all. That is what happens when moisture is absorbed by the ammonium nitrate salt. Instead of burning gradually in layers, it burns all at once (_en masse_) because it has solidified.

Because the highly explosive ammonium salt has absorbed molecules of water from the atmosphere, there are now more molecules of matter inside the container than there were when it was manufactured. More molecules of matter equals more mass inside a sealed container equals more pressure inside the container equals over-pressurization. The NHTSA's expert is describing exactly how this absorption of water molecules causes the ammonium salt to change its physical properties and physical shape as it solidifies, resulting in this _en masse_ burning instead of the intended gradual burning. What you end up with is more pressure inside a sealed container because it contains more mass coupled with an _en masse_ burning of what is now a highly explosive solid instead of a controlled burning. This causes the housing of the module to explode with excessive force, shattering it into pieces.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> No, it is not different at all. That is what happens when moisture is absorbed by the ammonium nitrate salt. Instead of burning gradually in layers, it burns all at once (_en masse_) because it has solidified.
> 
> Because the highly explosive ammonium salt has absorbed molecules of water from the atmosphere, there are now more molecules of matter inside the container than there were when it was manufactured. More molecules of matter equals more mass inside a sealed container equals more pressure inside the container equals over-pressurization. The NHTSA's expert is describing exactly how this absorption of water molecules causes the ammonium salt to change its physical properties and physical shape as it solidifies, resulting in this _en masse_ burning instead of the intended gradual burning. What you end up with is more pressure inside a sealed container because it contains more mass coupled with an _en masse_ burning of what is now a highly explosive solid instead of a controlled burning. This causes the housing of the module to explode with excessive force, shattering it into pieces.


The expert report is very specific about pore/channel formation as the cause of the en masse burn during ignition, it does not mention physical size increase nor over-pressurization(to the extent the casing/housing is under stress) *prior* to ignition.

"In sum, at increased moisture levels in the main propellant, temperature cycling causes progressive physical degradation of the main propellant by pore formation."

From layman eyes, when the moisture is absorbed to the extent that the physical structure is altered, there actually is minute amount of propellant already consumed, it is unclear to me if NH3+ has larger volume than ammonium nitrate but again the expert says pore/channel formation, not increased volume(and over-pressurization) *prior* to ignition, as cause of en masse burn.

2H2O + NH4NO3 --> 3H+ + NO3- + NH3+ + H2O


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The expert report is very specific about pore/channel formation as the cause of the en masse burn during ignition, it does not mention physical size increase nor over-pressurization(to the extent the casing/housing is under stress) *prior* to ignition.
> 
> "In sum, at increased moisture levels in the main propellant, temperature cycling causes progressive physical degradation of the main propellant by pore formation."
> 
> ...


Absorption of moisture from the atmosphere is what causes the pore formation. The salt is solidifying. That is what it does when it absorbs moisture inside a closed container. It is obvious that more mass inside the container equals increased pressure inside the container. That's as basic as 2 +2. The expert is describing the exact changes that take place when this happens and why the highly explosive ammonium nitrate salt explodes all at once instead of gradually as intended.

This has been described in the media as "over-pressurization" of the module because that's the easiest way to describe it to the public and it is, in fact, exactly what happens. The expert is simply describing how it happens not whether it is or is not happening. He knows why it happens, he's simply explaining exactly how it changed the physical properties of ammonium nitrate inside the container. He even describes how long it takes for this process to reach a dangerous point depending on the location's climate.

The inflator module explodes with excessive force due to over-pressurization of the module caused by absorption of moisture from the atmosphere over time. That is how it has always been described and that is an accurate statement.

If you want to know exactly what happens inside the container to the shape of the ammonium nitrate and why it doesn't burn the way it was intended, you can read the expert's report. He will explain it to you in detail. What he is describing is the result of the absorption of moisture by a highly explosive salt causing it to solidify so that it burns all at once instead of gradually. *You have more mass inside the container than you did when it was manufactured and it explodes all at once instead of gradually. More mass inside a closed container equals more pressure inside the container.*


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Absorption of moisture from the atmosphere is what causes the pore formation. The salt is solidifying. That is what it does when it absorbs moisture inside a closed container. It is obvious that more mass inside the container equals increased pressure inside the container. That's as basic as 2 +2. The expert is describing the exact changes that take place when this happens and why the highly explosive ammonium nitrate salt explodes all at once instead of gradually as intended.
> 
> This has been described in the media as "over-pressurization" of the module because that's the easiest way to describe it to the public and it is, in fact, exactly what happens. The expert is simply describing how it happens not whether it is or is not happening. He knows why it happens, he's simply explaining exactly how it changed the physical properties of ammonium nitrate inside the container. He even describes how long it takes for this process to reach a dangerous point depending on the location's climate.
> 
> ...


Yes my previous posts(#1466, #1468, and #1471) quoted pieces from the NTHSA expert report, *before* your post#1474 that included the link to the expert report. 

My take is that the expert report is more accurate than the media description. The over-pressurization is only mentioned by the expert report during ignition, and it does not make any reference to expanded volume of propellant(and the alleged over-pressurized housing/casing) prior to ignition.

Another subtle point is, according to the chemical equation, ammonium nitrate absorbs water, and then *reacts* with water(*not holds on to* water). That means the amount of explosive propellant should (minutely) go down after the reaction, and should reduce the explosive force if it is still layer by layer. However the formation of the pores/channels "connects" the layers, and en masse burn is the result.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

The point is that neither Ninong or Namelessman are chemists and should stop bickering back and forth we need Doug the Nuclear Engineer from the E70 X5 forum to put a rest to it.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Quatro40 said:


> The point is that neither Ninong or Namelessman are chemists and should stop bickering back and forth we need Doug the Nuclear Engineer from the E70 X5 forum ...


:lmao:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Quatro40 said:


> The point is that neither Ninong or Namelessman are chemists and should stop bickering back and forth we need Doug the Nuclear Engineer from the E70 X5 forum to put a rest to it.


That is correct, my background is far from all the experts and expertise of this field, so my reference is the NHTSA expert report, which does not substantiate some of the media/online descriptions, e.g. implied 0.07% of BMW failure, over-pressurized container prior to ignition, etc, etc.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> The point is that neither Ninong or Namelessman are chemists and should stop bickering back and forth we need Doug the Nuclear Engineer from the E70 X5 forum to put a rest to it.





Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> :lmao:


It isn't necessary to be a professional chemist to understand something as basic as the explosive properties of ammonium nitrate and how it reacts to Critical Relative Humidity (CRH) in the atmosphere. That has been know for decades. I'm surprised that the two of you would think otherwise. Some of you are trying to over-complicate something that is really quite simple. The NHTSA's conclusion simply confirmed what has been reported in the automotive media for the past year now.

Please see the safety guidelines for handling of ammonium nitrate, especially as regards to CRH which begins on page 9: http://www.productstewardship.eu/fi...tew/documents/Guidance_for_compatibility2.pdf

If it absorbs moisture, it solidifies and this increases it detonability potential. We are talking about a highly explosive material that is used to blow stuff up, like the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. It will blow up your airbag, too, but hopefully in a controlled manner as designed. It won't do it in that intended manner if it has been absorbing moisture for a certain length of time, causing it to solidify and explode all at once.

Why is that so hard to understand? It blows up all at once and with more force than intended because it has absorbed moisture over the years. There is now more matter inside the sealed container than there was when it was originally manufactured and it has solidified, which increases its detonability and causes it to explode _en masse_.

The more mass you have inside a closed container the more pressure you have inside that container. Some of you seem to have a hard time understanding that basic principle but it's as obvious as 2 + 2 to me. If that mass happens to be an explosive substance like ammonium nitrate, then you have increased it's explosive potential, and if it is now a solid, it will explode all at once. Do the two of you agree with this paragraph? If you think this is beyond your comprehension and requires a doctorate in chemistry, then I give up because I can't believe it is possible to be a grown adult with even a minimum amount of education who would not see that.



P.S. -- Go ahead an invite Doug-the-nuclear-engineer. I'm sure he will understand what I'm talking about. I'm rather surprised that this is beyond Michael's comprehension.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> It isn't necessary to be a professional chemist to understand something as basic as the explosive properties of ammonium nitrate and how it reacts to Critical Relative Humidity (CRH) in the atmosphere. ... I give up because I can't believe it is possible to be a grown adult with even a minimum amount of education who would not see that.


Don't give up on us! I think he was just injecting a little humor. I took it that way, thus the LMFAO emoji from me.

Personally, I agree with the premise that I'm safer with the airbag than without. I certainly don't want to dissuade you.

But 1) I thought it was funny and 2) Doug's a Nuclear Engineer, not a Chemical Engineer.

:thumbup:


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Don't give up on us! I think he was just injecting a little humor. I took it that way, thus the LMFAO emoji from me.
> 
> Personally, I agree with the premise that I'm safer with the airbag than without. I certainly don't want to dissuade you.
> 
> ...


Wasn't the unintentional "injecting" of additional mass what got us in this mess to begin with? :thumbup:


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

L-F-C said:


> Wasn't the unintentional "injecting" of additional mass what got us in this mess to begin with? :thumbup:


I think the problem is mass "ejecting."

:mic drop:


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

L-F-C and I will be here through Friday. Please be sure to tip your servers.

~M~


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Don't give up on us! I think he was just injecting a little humor. I took it that way, thus the LMFAO emoji from me.
> 
> Personally, I agree with the premise that I'm safer with the airbag than without. I certainly don't want to dissuade you.
> 
> ...


Do board sponsors have any pull to invite the expert report's author to participate?

One caveat is that the Chemist PhD may have additional spirited discussions with Doug the Nuclear Engineer.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I think the problem is mass "ejecting."


Exactly! And all at once. And with more force than necessary!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

The expert hired by the NHTSA, Dr. Harold R. Blomquist, has a Ph.D. in chemistry from Duke (1980) and has 35 years of research in industrial chemicals. I'm sure he is more than qualified to provide an expert opinion on the problem. 

He agreed with me completely. He just explained the process in excruciating detail.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Do board sponsors have any pull to invite the expert report's author to participate?
> 
> One caveat is that the Chemist PhD may have additional spirited discussions with Doug the Nuclear Engineer.


I find great levity in Doug's brevity. Don't know if you saw this post exchange:

Poster:

Should I stay away from a buyback vehicle?
Does BMW go through a thorough diagnosis before the putting the buyback car back in circulation for sale? 
If BMW repaired the vehicle all should be ok?

Doug:

Yes. No. If.
~~~~~~~

Love it!


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I find great levity in Doug's brevity. Don't know if you saw this post exchange:
> 
> Poster:
> 
> ...


Concise and precise answers are great. :thumbup:


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I find great levity in Doug's brevity. Don't know if you saw this post exchange:
> 
> Poster:
> 
> ...


You have to know the reason it was a buyback. In many, if not most, cases it was something simple that simply wasn't properly diagnosed and dragged on forever. Sometimes they have trouble identifying the real problem and then when they get a replacement part, it turns out to be defective because they all came from the same production run at the same time and there was a problem. Maybe the guy in charge of quality control was drunk or something?

If it was simply a matter of replacing a part and that part is now replaced, then the car is really in great shape and you can buy it on the cheap. If it was one of those deals where the door just won't seat properly and they can't seem to stop it from making excessive wind noise, then you may want to avoid that one. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to correct that particular issue.

Here's the real truth. Many, if not most, of those cars were pushed back by the customer because he had buyer's remorse for whatever reason and maybe he was one of the 5% of customers who are what I liked to call "insane" and then if you couple that with any problem with the car that can't be fixed right away on the first try, then this guy will make a federal case out of it.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

My rule of thumb analysis of the BMW buying public as a whole was that 95% are nice, normal people who just expect to be treated honestly and with respect. The other 5% are insane and there is nothing you can do that will satisfy them if they think they have a problem and you don't agree with their version of what should be done about it.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> The expert hired by the NHTSA, Dr. Harold R. Blomquist, has a Ph.D. in chemistry from Duke (1980) and has 35 years of research in industrial chemicals. I'm sure he is more than qualified to provide an expert opinion on the problem.
> 
> He agreed with me completely. He just explained the process in excruciating detail.


The expert report is a great read. To be specific, it does not mention the ammonium nitrate becoming a large solid mass like media/online descriptions say.

It does say the PSAN(a water sensitive oxidizer) in the main propellant is the culprit:

" When the main propellant is above 0.1~0.2 wt% continued temperature cycling facilitates a process similar to Ostwald ripening wherein smaller PSAN oxidizer particles merge onto large ones, forming more thermodynamically stable larger particles, thereby resulting in the formation of pores/channels within the propellant....

Formation of pores/channels in the main propellant leads to changes in propellant density, most easily noted in larger parts like wafers used in passenger side inflators. This is an indirect result of the PSAN changes caused by reduced cohesion between particles. The density change manifests as increased diameter measurable by calipers once the inflator is disassembled."

However, the increased diameter is not quoted by Dr. Blomquist as the reason for en masse burn. Instead his explanation is:

"All found that, above some level of damage to the main propellant by pore/channel formation, combustion is likely to cause a pressure excursion event mid-way through the propellant burn (or deployment)....

In the closed bomb test, the structure does not fail, so *normal burning propellant steadily pressurizes the closed bomb over 80 milliseconds* (wafer propellant part). By contrast, the Pc history for* damaged propellant shows a pressure excursion 15-50 milliseconds* into the event. In one example the excursion is at 20 milliseconds, which corresponds to an instantaneous 4.75-fold surface area increase. In sum, the presence of pores in the main propellant cause abnormal burning, resulting in increased pressure that cannot be contained by the inflator housing."

The propellant itself, is described as "comprised of solid powders that are blended together and pressed to form the propellant part, akin to pharmaceutical tablets." This is no mentioning by Dr. Blomquist that the moisture is absorbed into the main propellant, causing it to become a large solid mass.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> L-F-C and I will be here through Friday. Please be sure to tip your servers.
> 
> ~M~


:beerchug:


----------



## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

I side with Ninong in this. I don't dispute with experts.

The burning physics are quite analogous with those of modern gunpowder with which any reloaders here should be familiar.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> This is no mentioning by Dr. Blomquist that the moisture is absorbed into the main propellant, causing it to become a large solid mass.


Dr. Blomquist put it in paragraph 2 of page 1 of his report:

"...simplified, the inflator design permits *moist air* to slowly enter the inflator, where the moisture-sensitive propellant *slowly degrades physically* due to temperature cycling. During subsequent air bag deployment in a crash, the damaged propellant *burns more rapidly* than intended, and *over-pressurizes the inflator's steel housing*, causing fragmentation."

When a salt reacts with moisture it turns into a solid mass. That is how it degrades physically. If it is an explosive salt, like ammonium nitrate, that will increase its detonatability and its explosive potential because it will burn all at once (_en masse_).

I assume we can all agree if you start out with a certain number of atoms inside a sealed container and then you add more atoms to the atoms that are already inside the container, you have increased the mass inside the container and increased the pressure inside the container. It that mass is an explosive salt like ammonium nitrate, then you will have a more powerful explosion that you wanted. That is the simple explanation and it was all contained in just two sentences in the second paragraph of the first page of the expert's report.

Dr. Blomquist goes into great detail later to explain why that process of absorbing moisture results in the ammonium nitrate defeating the manufacturer's original design of the way the inflator was supposed to ignite gradually and instead results in it all igniting at once because it is now a solid but he actually states the problem in simple language on the very first page of his report.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Doug Huffman said:


> I side with Ninong in this. I don't dispute with experts.
> 
> The burning physics are quite analogous with those of modern gunpowder with which any reloaders here should be familiar.


:thumbup:


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

I have invited my daughter, a PhD in Organic Chemistry, a MD and BMW owner personally impacted by the Takata recall on her BMW to review the NHTSA report, this elephantine thread ... and anything else... & comment on Takata's ammonium nitrate gas dynamics and risks to humans.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

dkreidel said:


> I have invited my daughter, a PhD in Organic Chemistry, a MD and BMW owner personally impacted by the Takata recall on her BMW to review the NHTSA report, this elephantine thread ... and anything else... & comment on Takata's ammonium nitrate gas dynamics and risks to humans.


That would be very cool, thanks.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Dr. Blomquist put it in paragraph 2 of page 1 of his report:
> 
> "...simplified, the inflator design permits *moist air* to slowly enter the inflator, where the moisture-sensitive propellant *slowly degrades physically* due to temperature cycling. During subsequent air bag deployment in a crash, the damaged propellant *burns more rapidly* than intended, and *over-pressurizes the inflator's steel housing*, causing fragmentation."
> 
> ...


Dr. Blomquist's description of over-pressurization is during ignition, what your description refers to over-pressurization(due to increased/large solid mass of the propellant) of the housing prior to ignition. Those of two different root causes.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

dkreidel said:


> I have invited my daughter, a PhD in Organic Chemistry, a MD and BMW owner personally impacted by the Takata recall on her BMW to review the NHTSA report, this elephantine thread ... and anything else... & comment on Takata's ammonium nitrate gas dynamics and risks to humans.


what would REALLY be interesting is, after she reads the report, and learns of the statistic in various cars like BMW vs honda deaths etc, what will she feel she needs to do (and how soon) with her recalled car?

Everyone's risk tolerance is different, but this would be interesting to hear. For example, if my BMW were affected by this (its not yet as I have a 2016 which has not been recalled as of yet), I would drive my car without much worry. If the car were my 22 year old son's, I would really want it replaced. Laugh at me all you want on being more worried about him than myself, but that is likely the way of most parents.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> what would REALLY be interesting is, after she reads the report, and learns of the statistic in various cars like BMW vs honda deaths etc, what will she feel she needs to do (and how soon) with her recalled car?
> 
> Everyone's risk tolerance is different, but this would be interesting to hear. For example, if my BMW were affected by this (its not yet as I have a 2016 which has not been recalled as of yet), I would drive my car without much worry. If the car were my 22 year old son's, I would really want it replaced. Laugh at me all you want on being more worried about him than myself, but that is likely the way of most parents.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> what would REALLY be interesting is, after she reads the report, and learns of the statistic in various cars like BMW vs honda deaths etc, what will she feel she needs to do (and how soon) with her recalled car?
> 
> Everyone's risk tolerance is different, but this would be interesting to hear. For example, if my BMW were affected by this (its not yet as I have a 2016 which has not been recalled as of yet), I would drive my car without much worry. If the car were my 22 year old son's, I would really want it replaced. Laugh at me all you want on being more worried about him than myself, but that is likely the way of most parents.


Yes that will be of interest to me too. My impression prior to reading the expert report is that the 0.07% is A-OK(being complacent), but the thorough analysis presented does shed new lights to the issues.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

namelessman said:


> 2H2O + NH4NO3 --> 3H+ + NO3- + NH3+ + H2O


Isn't this the chemical formula for meth?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MRCW said:


> Isn't this the chemical formula for meth?


That is the equation returned by online search.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

I have much respect for everyone participating, and it's a difficult decision based on each person's circumstances.

I don't think I need any more analysis to decide. If my 2014 GT turns up on the list, I will have no problem driving it, having my wife and family drive it, and wait it out.

If any of my kids leased a newer BMW, I'm all in for them to drive it.

If any of them (or me) are driving a 2007 or older, and the car has been anywhere warm and/or humid all that time, I'd get them out of it as soon as I can.

The bottom line for me on the newer vehicles (2011+) is that driving a vehicle that doesn't have nearly the accident avoidance or crash worthiness of a BMW is *much riskie*r than the airbag risk itself.

~M~


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

To get further off the deep ends , apparently PSAN is phase stabilized ammonium nitrate, and is used to make ammonium nitrate usable in "pyrotechnic gas generant formulations", e.g. automobile airbags.

"It has been found that the phase change-induced degradation of pelletized ammonium nitrate-containing compositions can be mitigated if the humidity is kept extremely low, i.e., if the percent water vapor in the atmosphere is kept below 0.05 wt. %. Maintaining such low humidity levels, however, is generally impractical for most manufacturing situations; thus there is a need and a demand for gas generant compositions in which ammonium nitrate is phase-stabilized under more realistic or practical humidity conditions."

My layman interpretation is that Takata's PSAN is expected to phase stabilize the main propellant against humidity, but is compromised structurally itself by forming large particles and hence creating pore/channel formations in the main propellant.

http://www.google.com/patents/US6872265


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I have much respect for everyone participating, and it's a difficult decision based on each person's circumstances.
> 
> I don't think I need any more analysis to decide. If my 2014 GT turns up on the list, I will have no problem driving it, having my wife and family drive it, and wait it out.
> 
> ...


I agree, plus everyone has different risk tolerances. People need to do what they feel most comfortable with. For me I haven't given it anymore thought since I leased for another year. The only thing I wonder about is what will the offer be next year when most of the cars that were re-leased still aren't fixed. Should be interesting....


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I have much respect for everyone participating, and it's a difficult decision based on each person's circumstances.
> 
> I don't think I need any more analysis to decide. If my 2014 GT turns up on the list, I will have no problem driving it, having my wife and family drive it, and wait it out.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a great plan, mine probably will be similar too.


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

angler said:


> I agree, plus everyone has different risk tolerances. People need to do what they feel most comfortable with. For me I haven't given it anymore thought since I leased for another year. The only thing I wonder about is what will the offer be next year when most of the cars that were re-leased still aren't fixed. Should be interesting....


What happen to us after 12 months will be very interesting...you will find out earlier than I do since I ONLY received my re-lease offer package via FedEx yesterday, about a month later than you did. What ever you get in 11 months will be a good indicator for me


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

This article has pictures of some Takata airbag inflators(midway of the article).

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/business/compound-in-takata-airbags-is-inquirys-focus.html?_r=0

The white-color pharmaceutical-like tablets should be the PSAN-based propellant. For the designs shown the tablets are not jammed packed, and the chamber can accommodate some amount volume increase(assuming the propellant does absorb moisture and expand). Based on the expert report there is some density change, but there is no mentioning of over-pressurization of the housing/chamber prior to ignition, that's believable according to the pictures of these inflators.

Another observation is, the two inflators shown have different sidewall designs, and different amount of white-color tablets. It is unclear what inflator family these belong to. The left-hand one has white-color tablets in the middle, with layered metal housing(looks like a cannon barrel). The right-hand one also has two types of propellant, the white-color tablets in the bottom and the grey powder-like propellant on top, plus another(booster) around the sensor at the bottom.

It would be good to see some dissected pictures of BMW's PSDI-4/PSDI-5 inflators(customized for BMW fittings and performances and specs).


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

dkreidel said:


> I have invited my daughter, a PhD in Organic Chemistry, a MD and BMW owner personally impacted by the Takata recall on her BMW to review the NHTSA report, this elephantine thread ... and anything else... & comment on Takata's ammonium nitrate gas dynamics and risks to humans.


:rofl::rofl::rofl: My daughter read most of this thread, reviewed the detail on the NHTSA site, and I quote:

*"Don't you and your internet friends have anything better to do than waste time worrying about something less probable than being hit by a meteorite?"*

She will continue to drive her Takata affected BMW - but my wife had to get rid of her X5 - go figure. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

dkreidel said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: My daughter read most of this thread, reviewed the detail on the NHTSA site, and I quote:
> 
> *"Don't you and your internet friends have anything better to do than waste time worrying about something less probable than being hit by a meteorite?"*
> 
> She will continue to drive her Takata affected BMW - but my wife had to get rid of her X5 - go figure. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


:thumbup: :rofl:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

dkreidel said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: My daughter read most of this thread, reviewed the detail on the NHTSA site, and I quote:
> 
> *"Don't you and your internet friends have anything better to do than waste time worrying about something less probable than being hit by a meteorite?"*
> 
> She will continue to drive her Takata affected BMW - but my wife had to get rid of her X5 - go figure. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Yes, same here with 2 distinct camps. :bigpimp:

One online reference says "1 in 7 billion and you would not survive it" chance to be hit by meteorite, so Takata inflator rupture has higher probability than that!


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

dkreidel said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: My daughter read most of this thread, reviewed the detail on the NHTSA site, and I quote:
> 
> *"Don't you and your internet friends have anything better to do than waste time worrying about something less probable than being hit by a meteorite?"*
> 
> She will continue to drive her Takata affected BMW - but my wife had to get rid of her X5 - go figure. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Thanks for circling back around. Whats interesting to me about your specific situation is, you have both sides of the spectrum in your family. Your wife wanted to turn the car in, while your daughter is ok with driving hers.

Both situations make sense, If your wife didnt feel safe in that car, she probably WASNT safe in that car, because she would probably be worried about it so much while driving it, she would make mistakes while driving it (thereby being less safe).

Thanks for circling around and letting us know. :thumbup:


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

jjrandorin said:


> Thanks for circling back around. Whats interesting to me about your specific situation is, you have both sides of the spectrum in your family. Your wife wanted to turn the car in, while your daughter is ok with driving hers.
> 
> Both situations make sense, If your wife didnt feel safe in that car, she probably WASNT safe in that car, because she would probably be worried about it so much while driving it, she would make mistakes while driving it (thereby being less safe).
> 
> Thanks for circling around and letting us know. :thumbup:


I don't agree that both sides make sense. Either the risk is statistically insignificant or it is not (I agree with the daughter). However, people are notoriously bad at evaluating risk and probability (at least those who aren't Doctors or Scientists).


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> *"Don't you and your internet friends have anything better to do than waste time worrying about something less probable than being hit by a meteorite?"*


Meteroites: 1
Takata airbags in a BMW: 0

Your daughter is correct!


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

dkreidel said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: My daughter read most of this thread, reviewed the detail on the NHTSA site, and I quote:
> 
> *"Don't you and your internet friends have anything better to do than waste time worrying about something less probable than being hit by a meteorite?"*
> 
> She will continue to drive her Takata affected BMW - but my wife had to get rid of her X5 - go figure. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


1 fatality is a tragedy. 10 fatalities is a statistics. That's of course from the outsider's point of view.

I don't want to be neither.

But thank her for taking the time anyways... and maybe she can disable all the smoke detectors in her house as well since she likes to live on the edge.


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

I know intelligent people who ride motorcycles, snow ski and rollerblade not to mention drive a car to work every day but are afraid of nuclear power and meteorites. Statistics are not the answer for all people.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

adgrant said:


> I don't agree that both sides make sense. Either the risk is statistically insignificant or it is not (I agree with the daughter). However, people are notoriously bad at evaluating risk and probability (at least those who aren't Doctors or Scientists).


Whether the risk is insignificant or not does not matter, IF the person who is actually driving the car is scared of the car. Anyone who is "scared" of driving, has a difficult time being a good driver. They try to drive more "carefully" but end up making more mistakes. Thats what I mean.

Some people can look at things clinically, and determine that the statistical chance of something happening is small, and it doesnt bother them. Others look at this situation and feel like they are looking down the barrel of a shotgun. Even if it isnt true, it doesnt mean they dont feel it.

psychosomatic pain is still felt, right?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> Others look at this situation and feel like they are looking down the barrel of a shotgun.


That is factually accurate on the failing inflators.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jjrandorin said:


> Whether the risk is insignificant or not does not matter, IF the person who is actually driving the car is scared of the car. Anyone who is "scared" of driving, has a difficult time being a good driver. They try to drive more "carefully" but end up making more mistakes. Thats what I mean.


Fortunately for everybody, including BMW, not all 1,605,000 BMW owners who received a recall notice are too scared to keep driving their cars and are rushing down to the dealership to demand a loaner of rental car.

Thankfully, the NHTSA won't tell all of the 38 million new people whose cars are really being recalled until just before it's time to bring them in to fix them. So those folks can sleep peacefully and continue driving their BMWs with Takata frontal airbags. What they don't know won't hurt them and it certainly won't freak them out.

Maybe it would be politically incorrect to tell them that if their BMW has a Takata frontal airbag without a desiccant (a recent improvement) it's really on recall but they just haven't been told yet. The first wave will include the oldest cars in the hot, humid climates. Maybe they own a newer BMW (like one on a lease) and maybe they don't live in a HAH area? Well, they will probably be in the 5th wave sometime in 2019 but before December 31, 2019. That way they can keep driving peacefully for another three years.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

Prost said:


> What happen to us after 12 months will be very interesting...you will find out earlier than I do since I ONLY received my re-lease offer package via FedEx yesterday, about a month later than you did. What ever you get in 11 months will be a good indicator for me


Since my car will be in the last zone to be fixed I am sure it will be a couple of years from now. Not sure I will keep leasing the car for that long. It was an easy decision this year as I still have one year left of warranty plus all the financial incentives the offered. Not sure how I feel about having to lease the car for a couple more years not knowing when I will be able to buy it. Anyway high class problem, time will tell.


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

Ninong said:


> Fortunately for everybody, including BMW, not all 1,605,000 BMW owners who received a recall notice are too scared to keep driving their cars and are rushing down to the dealership to demand a loaner of rental car.
> 
> Thankfully, the NHTSA won't tell all of the 38 million new people whose cars are really being recalled until just before it's time to bring them in to fix them. So those folks can sleep peacefully and continue driving their BMWs with Takata frontal airbags. What they don't know won't hurt them and it certainly won't freak them out.
> 
> Maybe it would be politically incorrect to tell them that if their BMW has a Takata frontal airbag without a desiccant (a recent improvement) it's really on recall but they just haven't been told yet. The first wave will include the oldest cars in the hot, humid climates. Maybe they own a newer BMW (like one on a lease) and maybe they don't live in a HAH area? Well, they will probably be in the 5th wave sometime in 2019 but before December 31, 2019. That way they can keep driving peacefully for another three years.


So do you think it is wrong for NHTSA to demand recall on late model units at this time? Do you think it is better for all parties to agree that recalls would be staggered... for instance, appropriate for 2013 vehicles in two years...2014 vehicles in 3 years etc...and take the resale restriction off?

I'd welcome the opportunity and relief to let my daughter drive her x1 35i again but not with the perception of it being unsafe to drive right now.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

MRCW said:


> So do you think it is wrong for NHTSA to demand recall on late model units at this time? Do you think it is better for all parties to agree that *recalls would be staggered.*.. for instance, appropriate for 2013 vehicles in two years...2014 vehicles in 3 years etc...and take the resale restriction off?
> 
> I'd welcome the opportunity and relief to let my daughter drive her x1 35i again but not with the perception of it being unsafe to drive right now.


It sounds like this de facto what they are going to do with the upcoming recall announcement.


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

This fiasco is definitely having an effect on the bottom line of other manufacturers:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/honda-posts-quarterly-loss-as-air-bag-recall-costs-surge-1463125096


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

need4speed said:


> It sounds like this de facto what they are going to do with the upcoming recall announcement.


MRCW's comment was to only have stop sale based on the staggered recall reschedule. That makes sense since the scientific study concludes how soon the inflators will fail based on Zone A/B/C hence the staggered recall schedule. If the car is deemed to be safe before approaching the time limit per Zone A/B/C then it should not have stop sale.

The irony is that, assuming the scientific study is accurate, BMW's generous packages for 3-year lessees and 2012+ loaners and $3k/month rentals are directed at the least vulnerable units even for HAH + high solar load areas.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

MRCW said:


> So do you think it is wrong for NHTSA to demand recall on late model units at this time? Do you think it is better for all parties to agree that recalls would be staggered... for instance, appropriate for 2013 vehicles in two years...2014 vehicles in 3 years etc...and take the resale restriction off?
> 
> I'd welcome the opportunity and relief to let my daughter drive her x1 35i again but not with the perception of it being unsafe to drive right now.


That's a personal decision. BMW has said that these cars are safe to drive. The NHTSA has placed them on the recall list based on test results provided by Takata, not based on even a single failure of a Takata airbag in any BMW anywhere in the world over the past 10 years. BMW is not the only manufacturer making that same statement. Many of the 17 new car manufacturers who are caught up in this mess have never received even a single incident report involving one of their cars.

The first 765,000 BMWs recalled were placed on the NHTSA's recall list because Takata reported the failure of 9 inflators out of 12,464 airbags removed from older model cars in hot, humid climates. BMW says they are not aware of a single incident in a BMW anywhere in the world. Many of the other 17 manufacturers caught up in this recall mess have said the same. What if only 3 out of those 12,464 airbags had failed? Would that have been enough to get on the recall list? How about 1 or 2? Where do they draw the line?

Based on that exact information, is it reasonable for someone driving a one- or two-year-old BMW to turn it in to the dealer and request alternate transportation? Obviously we all have our own opinions on that matter. When they wrote those rules, did they ever in their wildest dreams imagine a situation where tens of millions of cars would be recalled simultaneously for the same defect and replacement parts not be available for many months, possibly years? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there aren't that many rental cars available.

That recall of an additional 5 million airbags that resulted in BMW having to recall another 840,000 cars last months was originally reported in the media as having been the result of that December 2015 accident involving a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup and a cow in South Carolina. However, BMW has said something about information from Takata based on independent testing by Toyota. Anyway, it's the PSDI-5 inflators and the previous BMW recall was PSDI-4 inflators.

Any of us interested enough in the situation can read the same information. Obviously not everyone reaches the same conclusions. That's life.


----------



## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

My 2013 X5 leased being turned in early under the 
Pull-Out Option for Lessees
(Customer Confidence Lease Termination Benefit)
Dealer said my lease qualifies that normally would end on Nov 2016.

I am going in tomorrow to a dealer to see what deal they can offer on a CPO BMW that I spotted.

Will let you know...


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Pat_X5 said:


> My 2013 X5 leased being turned in early under the
> Pull-Out Option for Lessees
> (Customer Confidence Lease Termination Benefit)
> Dealer said my lease qualifies that normally would end on Nov 2016.
> ...


If your car qualifies for the waiver of the remaining lease payments, that's the support BMW is providing in lieu of the $4,000 Trade Benefit they would provide 2012 and newer X5 and X6 affected by the Takata recall that are not leased through BMWFS, in other words, other 2012 and newer X5's or X6's that were either financed or owned outright. Plus you qualify for whatever rate and residual support BMW is offering.

Good luck!


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

dkreidel said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: My daughter read most of this thread, reviewed the detail on the NHTSA site, and I quote:
> 
> *"Don't you and your internet friends have anything better to do than waste time worrying about something less probable than being hit by a meteorite?"*
> 
> She will continue to drive her Takata affected BMW - but my wife had to get rid of her X5 - go figure. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


This is because your daughter has the knowledge and expertise to see that the risk of driving her car is quite low and your wife cannot see that since she is not a PhD in Organic Chemistry. It is all about perception. IMHO, anyone with a car built from 2013 onward (regardless of climate) is fine until the replacement parts become available. Any older than that, the risk starts increasing with every year.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> This is because your daughter has the knowledge and expertise to see that the risk of driving her car is quite low and your wife cannot see that since she is not a PhD in Organic Chemistry. It is all about perception. IMHO, anyone with a car built from 2013 onward (regardless of climate) is fine until the replacement parts become available. Any older than that, the risk starts increasing with every year.


The really funny part is my daughter skydives


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

dkreidel said:


> The really funny part is my daughter skydives


Exactly! Risk perception varies greatly and often does not correlate with the actual risk.

Here are some interesting articles:

https://thesportsarchivesblog.com/2...-dangerous-adventure-activities-in-the-world/

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/10/04/the-7-deadly-hobbies-pastimes-your-insurer-hates/

http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> This is because your daughter has the knowledge and expertise to see that the risk of driving her car is quite low and your wife cannot see that since she is not a PhD in Organic Chemistry. It is all about perception. IMHO, anyone with a car built from 2013 onward (regardless of climate) is fine until the replacement parts become available. Any older than that, the risk starts increasing with every year.


My take is that the conclusion of the expert report is the most trustworthy verdict, from people with real knowledge and expertise of the actual data from the various independent labs and Takata, and the guidelines provided are to be taken seriously. In fact the staggered recall schedules are based on the guidelines from the expert report. E.g. in HAH and high solar load regions, any car less than 6 years of age should be fine(e.g. 0.07% is too high), while any car more than 6 years ago should be of concern(e.g. 0.07% is too low).

Another perspective is that, there might be missed opportunities for the automakers and Takata and NTHSA to mitigate the blanket stop sale by carefully looking at the samples(e.g. the 30000 recalled airbags that Takata tested) to provide "fine grain" guidelines per inflator family per automaker spec, e.g. design variations of sidewall thickness, propellant etc etc. However, as the expert report said the variations are too wide(e.g. twenty-plus variants of driver and passenger inflators), so a blanket stop sale might be the most practical solution under the circumstances.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

rmorin49 said:


> Exactly! Risk perception varies greatly and often does not correlate with the actual risk.
> 
> Here are some interesting articles:
> 
> ...


I agree completely. It is all about perception.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> I agree completely. It is all about perception.


And a picture provides perspective to perception.  The following image(worth a thousand words?) probably have accelerated the sequence of events leading to the current state.

http://www.businessinsider.com/sena...esome-image-of-a-takata-airbag-injury-2014-11


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

rmorin49 said:


> Exactly! *Risk perception varies greatly and often does not correlate with the actual risk.
> *
> Here are some interesting articles:
> 
> ...


True, but there is also the reward side of the coin. As in, what reward do I get for running this risk.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Approximately 4,500 Americans are killed crossing the street every year. The reward is that they get to the other side of the street. More than 270,000 people are killed while walking every year. The reward is that they get where they're going. http://everybodywalk.org/4500-americans-killed-crossing-street-year/


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

need4speed said:


> True, but there is also the reward side of the coin. As in, what reward do I get for running this risk.


The risk in this airbag fiasco is shrapnels in the heads and necks, that does not sound too rewarding, does it?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The risk in this airbag fiasco is shrapnels in the heads and necks, that does not sound too rewarding, does it?


Yes, but as the first person injured in a BMW by a malfunctioning Takata airbag inflator, you would prevent BMW from making the claim in all of their official notifications to the NHTSA that "BMW has not received any reports, nor is BMW otherwise aware, of any injuries or deaths related to this issue."

You would have to actually die in order for death-by-airbag inflator malfunction in a BMW to tie the current record in the Guinness Book of World Records currently held by meteorites: 1.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Yes, but as the first person injured in a BMW by a malfunctioning Takata airbag inflator, you would prevent BMW from making the claim in all of their official notifications to the NHTSA that "BMW has not received any reports, nor is BMW otherwise aware, of any injuries or deaths related to this issue."
> 
> You would have to actually die in order for death-by-airbag inflator malfunction in a BMW to tie the current record in the Guinness Book of World Records currently held by meteorites: 1.


My take is that, assuming 0.07% is believable, then the PSDI-4/PSDI-5 variants used in BMW's may actually have more sturdy designs(e.g. thicker sidewalls, better moisture sealing, less propellant per BMW's specs) than others. Unfortunately BMW did not perform its own scientific studies on the PSDI-4/PSDI-5 used in their cars, hence an opportunity is missed to stay head and shoulder above the industry, literally.

On the other hand, my guess is that BMW looked at the same independent studies that the NTHSA expert scrutinized, and BMW arrived at similar conclusions as NTHSA and issued stop sales to BMW dealers.

As far as 0.07% being believable, my take still is that the conclusion of the scientific study is to be taken seriously, e.g. in HAH and high solar load, within 6 years the failure rate is close to 0%(0.07% is too high), but beyond 6 years the failure rate can be a lot higher than 0.07%. Hence my belief that 0.07% is misleading, and should be taken with grain of salt.

Another point to note is that, based on recent inventories, 50% of BMW's markets are concentrated in 3 metro areas, namely NY/NJ, northern Cal and southern Cal. These 3 are not known to be both HAH and high solar load.

Having said the above, it is also misleading to believe that the PSAN-based ammonium nitrate is an unstable explosive mix. Fertilizer ammonium nitrate becomes explosive when exposed to open flame or mixed with fuel oil. The PSAN-based ammonium nitrate is packed into pharmaceutical tablets and are relatively stable, and do not become a large solid mass like the white-powder fertilizer ammonium nitrate with moisture. PSAN appears to be an active research area based on the patents issued and filed, but unfortunately the scientists failed to realize some PSAN can be compromised by moisture and in turn damage the layer-by-layer controlled burn properties of the main propellant the PSAN is supposed to protect. Oh well ....


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

The PSDI-4 inflators were recalled because of the 9 out of 12,464 tested (0.07% failure rate). The PSDI-5 inflators were recalled based on information provided by Toyota and/or that December 2015 accident involving a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup in South Carolina. Take your pick. Both explanations have been given in the automotive press. Actually, that may be incorrect. The automotive press blamed all of the 5 million added to the NHTSA recall list in February 2016 on that cow in South Carolina. 

BMW blamed the recall of their 840,000 last month on information from Takata and information from Toyota. Apparently Toyota's own recent testing found 4 samples they tested failed. No word on exactly how many they tested. Although they may be testing every airbag they recalled. I believe BMW started doing the same with their recalled airbags. I'm not saying they're doing it themselves because they probably contracted that out with an outfit qualified to do that, but I know that BMW used to instruct the dealers to fire the removed airbags before sending them back but now the dealers have to send them back unfired.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Here's something I know. We can expect the first wave of the new recall to be announced probably starting tomorrow by the NHTSA. I'm talking about the additional 38 million Takata airbags that will be added to the previously recalled 28.8 million Takata airbags, only one-fourth of which have been fixed.

They will not recall all 38 million at once. They will start with just the older models in hot, humid parts of the country. The fifth and last wave will be added to the recall list sometime before the end of December 2019. Starting in January 2020, the NHTSA has warned Takata that they intend to add an additional 50 million Takata airbags to the previously recalled 67 million, bringing the total in the U.S. alone to 117 million, unless Takata can prove to the NHTSA that all of those airbags are safe. Remember, they all contain ammonium nitrate, which Takata started using as a propellant in "the late 1990's." I'm still trying to get an exact date on that.

Here's something else I know. The four different BMW dealerships I have talked to in the past week are all totally out of loaners (as expected) that they can spare for Takata airbag customers and two of them told me their local rental car agencies have cut off all car dealers from sending them any more Takata airbag customers because they have nothing available to rent them and they can't get any more cars. They are down to the minimum number of cars they must keep in stock to continue operating as a car rental company.

All four of the BMW dealers I talked to are completely out of replacement airbags and they aren't sure when they will receive new ones other than sometime this summer. I know that BMW and many other car manufacturers have switched away from Takata and that has put pressure on AutoLiv (which is now the largest airbag manufacturer in the world) and the others to keep up with the surge in new business as well as the surge in requests for replacement airbag kits to deal with the Takata recall mess. AutoLiv added 12 new production lines to their various locations worldwide just to make replacements for recalled Takata airbags.

One question you will have a hard time finding a reliable answer to just by googling the automotive press is how long it will take to produce the replacements for the recalled Takata airbags. Almost every article that mentions it has a different date. And that's before we even talk about the upcoming 38 million. 

If we're just talking about the 1.6 million BMWs already recalled, I think the best current estimates are late summer until the end of this year and maybe late next spring at the latest. I don't know how many more BMWs will be added thanks to this upcoming recall of a total of 38 million more Takata airbags.

Here's one more thing I know and that I have been saying from the beginning. BMW's program of what they can do for customers is totally unsustainable. All you have to do is look at the numbers to see immediately that it will not work. Will that lead to unhappy customers? Probably. That won't change the numbers.


----------



## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

Pat_X5 said:


> My 2013 X5 leased being turned in early under the
> Pull-Out Option for Lessees
> (Customer Confidence Lease Termination Benefit)
> Dealer said my lease qualifies that normally would end on Nov 2016.
> ...


Reporting back over the weekend of shopping for a replacement to my beloved, reliable and last of the HPS BMWs I have had. 

My E70 was taken back by BMWFS under the new CCLTB (early pull ahead) and the dealer offered me a very generous sale.

I looked at: 328i, 328GT, 328 wagon, 528i, and X3 from 3 dealers.

Ended up with a 2014 CPO 528i at Irvine BMW.:thumbup:

FYI: The dealers who took the time to read thru the dealer toolkit understood this process well and had already taken in quite a few recalled airbag BMWs. But some dealers were clueless and had to be "educated" with the options offered.

The great deal I got was thru my past purchases from them so I know I got a great deal: :clap:

$5000 off their internet pricing
0.9% APR for 48 months
1 year MUP (Maintenance upgrade pkg) for $0
Forgave my lease turn in damages (2 wheel curb rashes, interior leather tear, and past repaired accident). Paid $0
NO charge on the lease disposition (BMWFS is taking care of that under CCLTB).

So this replacement I will be keeping has the standard 100K/6yr CPO warranty as well as the extended maintenance covered for 75K/5yr!!
:roundel:

Here she is:


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Any word on what vehicles were added to the list of bag issues?


----------



## X5done (Feb 21, 2014)

12 Handicap said:


> Any word on what vehicles were added to the list of bag issues?


The database has been updated today may 16th.

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/owner/safetyrecalls.aspx?mobileoverride=true


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

X5done said:


> The database has been updated today may 16th.
> 
> http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/owner/safetyrecalls.aspx?mobileoverride=true


Not really what I was looking for, mine has a recall. Just wondering what I should not trade it in on.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Pat_X5 said:


> So this replacement I will be keeping has the standard 100K/6yr CPO warranty as well as the extended maintenance covered for 75K/5yr!!
> :roundel:


Congrats!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

12 Handicap said:


> Not really what I was looking for, mine has a recall. Just wondering what I should not trade it in on.


You would have to know which cars have Takata frontal airbags without a desiccant. All of those will be recalled between now and Dec. 31, 2019. Then, starting in January 2020, the NHTSA may recall all remaining Takata frontal airbags (those with a desiccant) as well as all cars that have Takata side airbags (a total of 50 million more). The worldwide total then could be 287.5 million! Thanks a lot, Takata. What a bunch of criminals, yet nobody's going to prison as far as I know.

So yes, it's a big mess. No, I haven't seen anything on the NHTSA website yet and the dealers still don't know anything and that's current as of Monday night. Don't forget that the NHTSA will do this in five waves starting this month and ending before the end of 2019. Only the cars in the first wave will be identified by the NHTSA. Those are expected to be older models in hot, humid climates.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Ninong said:


> You would have to know which cars have Takata frontal airbags without a desiccant. All of those will be recalled between now and Dec. 31, 2019. Then, starting in January 2020, the NHTSA may recall all remaining Takata frontal airbags (those with a desiccant) as well as all cars that have Takata side airbags (a total of 50 million more). The worldwide total then could be 287.5 million! Thanks a lot, Takata. What a bunch of criminals, yet nobody's going to prison as far as I know.
> 
> So yes, it's a big mess. No, I haven't seen anything on the NHTSA website yet and the dealers still don't know anything and that's current as of Monday night. Don't forget that the NHTSA will do this in five waves starting this month and ending before the end of 2019. Only the cars in the first wave will be identified by the NHTSA. Those are expected to be older models in hot, humid climates.


I thought they were too release the new list yesterday? Didn't happen?


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Looks like Honda has 21 million world wide. Still no word on exactly which cars are recalled? N4S


----------



## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

12 Handicap said:


> I thought they were too release the new list yesterday? Didn't happen?


Don't say that - another release of recalls - after I just returned the airbag defect X5 ???

I just picked up a 2014 528i.....


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

12 Handicap said:


> I thought they were too release the new list yesterday? Didn't happen?


There is nothing yet on the NHTSA website as of right this minute. However, all of the manufacturers were required to submit the VIN's of any remaining non-recalled cars with Takata frontal airbags (either driver or passenger) that do not have a desiccant (a recent improvement). Every one of those will be recalled in five separate waves between May 2016 and Dec. 31, 2019.

So even though each manufacturer should know exactly which VIN's are involved, it is my understanding that the NHTSA will only publicly announce the VIN's of the first wave, which will probably include older models in hot, humid climates. Another feature that was reported in the automotive press about these five waves is the idea that the replacement parts would be available when the recall was issued. Lots of luck with that idea. I talked to two different BMW dealerships that are 100 miles apart in one state plus another dealership in a different state and none of them has replacement parts right now.

Remember, BMW asked for and received an extension from March 31 to August 31, 2016 to have parts available for a previous recall of older models because they don't want to use available Takata replacements that would have to be recalled again once good replacements became available. The NHTSA sets these limits ordering the manufacturers to do something even if the parts do not exist at that time and will have to be designed and manufactured, unless you want to use "fresh" bad Takata airbags.

The NHTSA once again reminded Takata that they have until Dec. 31, 2019 to prove to the NHTSA that all of their other air bags (the frontal ones with a desiccant) and all of their side airbags are safe or the NHTSA intends to issue another recall involving 50 million more (not sure it that means airbags or cars -- 50 million cars or 50 million airbags?).

Previously they recalled 28.8 million airbags in the U.S. and now they will be adding 38 million more between now and the end of 2019. They were expected to announce the first wave May 16. Nothing yet that I know of. Prior to this upcoming recall, it was reported in Automotive News that worldwide 60 million Takata airbags had been recalled. Japan and the EU nations seem to follow the lead of the NHTSA regarding recalls. I believe it's a safe guess that the worldwide total will easily exceed 100 million following the about-to-be-announced recall and potentially could reach 287.5 million according to Automotive News.

In the meantime, Takata has refused to admit that the cause of the problem has been identified. They said just last week that after the cause of the problem has been identified, they will discuss with the car manufacturers what share of the cost of the replacement airbags Takata may be responsible for. Their statement is outrageous. Not only that, but it appears they're only talking about the approximately $100 each for the replacement airbag but absolutely nothing for consequential damages -- the cost of replacement transportation, etc. Even the cost of just the replacement airbags alone will reach several billion dollars and Takata has a market cap right now of only about $240 million, down from more than $3 billion in January 2014. Their assets are worth less than $1 billion. This is costing the car manufacturers untold billions of dollars.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> Looks like Honda has 21 million world wide. Still no word on exactly which cars are recalled? N4S


All you have to do if find out the part numbers of the frontal airbags in your car, both sides. If they were made by Takata, then you have to find out if they have a desiccant or not. After that you can estimate which wave you may be in based on how new your car is and where you're located. Maybe you can go another three years before your "draft number" comes up?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Our dealer management was told that there are only 15,000 replacement airbags being sent to the US BMW dealers this summer. These I'm sure are like-for-like airbags as we haven't developed our own.

Now I haven't got a second source, so I really shouldn't be posting this, as a good journalist should have a confirmed second source. :angel:

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> Looks like Honda has 21 million world wide. Still no word on exactly which cars are recalled? N4S


Oops! You're in South Carolina, one of the so-called HAH states but that just means if you have an older model you might be in the first wave, assuming you actually have an affected Takata airbag. Whatever priority your model year qualifies for, you would be at the top of that list, lumped in with guys from Miami, Houston and New Orleans... unless you're not considered "coastal" South Carolina. For example, Texas is a very big state. Only the Gulf Coast part should be HAH, including probably as far as San Antonio but not the entire state. That's just my personal opinion. I'm not sure how they figure it.

Honda is Takata's largest customer and I think Toyota may be their second largest customer. Those two companies should get together and take over Takata but I'm sure they won't do that unless they can do it without assuming contingent liabilities. Takata would have to go through whatever they call their legal restructuring over there under their legal system.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

*Update*:

Today, May 17, 2016, Takata declared an additional 14 million airbags defective as part of the new recall but guess how they announced it. According to Automotive News, "Takata spokesman Toyohiro Hishikawa said that the company considers the newly announced recall investigative and reiterated the company's stance that it is waiting until a study it commissioned presents its findings in the summer."

"If Takata is found to be solely responsible for the problem, it could face a bill of more than $9 billion in recall costs, based on a rough calculation that each replacement kit costs around $100."

Takata is fighting the idea of paying even $100 for each recalled airbag. It's costing the car manufacturers way more than $100 each. Mucho mucho mas!


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Takata's latest stance highlights a rarely discussed point, namely, what are the specs the automakers requested for the airbags? 

E.g. ZF 8AT has published specs of what HP/lb-ft it can bear per variant, plus its fitment measurements and such, and automakers design their transmissions and engines around those specs. 

Has Takata published any spec to claim that all variants of PSDI-4 and PSDI-5 inflators can last 20+ years in HAH and high solar load areas? 

If the automakers had picked the wrong parts for their usages then it would have been automaker's faults. If the specs from Takata had been inaccurate and hence misled the automakers then it would have been Takata's fault.

Another point is that, it is puzzling why airbag inflators with propellants are not maintenance items every, say, 6 years. Do fire extinguishers need to be replaced every few years?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Takata's latest stance highlights a rarely discussed point, namely, what are the specs the automakers requested for the airbags?
> 
> E.g. ZF 8AT has published specs of what HP/lb-ft it can bear per variant, plus its fitment measurements and such, and automakers design their transmissions and engines around those specs.
> 
> ...


In testimony before the NHTSA last year, Takata asserted that none of the manufacturers specified that the airbags should be certified good forever in HAH areas. That's one of the points Takata has been making from the beginning -- that nobody told them their airbags must be safe 15 or 25 years down the road. According to Takata, that wasn't in the manufacturers' specs.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> In testimony before the NHTSA last year, Takata asserted that none of the manufacturers specified that the airbags should be certified good forever in HAH areas. That's one of the points Takata has been making from the beginning -- that nobody told them their airbags must be safe 15 or 25 years down the road. According to Takata, that wasn't in the manufacturers' specs.


If Takata can disclose the automaker's specs as evidence then they probably will have a strong defense. That may be one reason why none at Takata is being prosecuted yet, and why automakers are spending so much money on this, as they(plus any regulatory body) are not innocent in this big mess.

Any disclosed automaker's spec also can shed some light if, say, BMW, has better/safer/longer-lasting spec than Honda's.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> That may be one reason why none at Takata is being prosecuted yet...


Takata was not fined because their airbags blow up in people's faces causing serious injuries, Takata was fined for violation of laws enforced by the Dept. of Transportation that require a parts manufacturer to notify the NHTSA of any known safety defects that could present a risk to the drivers and passengers. Takata and Honda more or less conspired to keep this secret to save money. Much, much later, as in just last year, Honda and Toyota both told the NHTSA that Takata provided them with "misleading and manipulated test results." Other testimony before the NHTSA accuses Takata of deliberately concealing the fact that they knew more than a decade ago that some of the inflators did not meet the required NHTSA safety standards, which are apparently very strict, but concealed what they really know and blamed it on a variety of other problems, such as improper storage of the ammonium nitrate at certain plants and/or inadequate quality control supervision at a plant in Mexico. They concealed the fact that their own testing told them their inflators were not as safe as required by the NHTSA.

Takata, Honda and Toyota were all fined the maximum allowed and the NHTSA even came up with ways to hit them with multiple fines of the maximum. Takata's fine was for a total of $200 million but $130 million of that will be waived provided they comply with all their consent agreements with the NHTSA. Honda and Toyota were fined for not reporting all those serious injuries and, in Honda's case, deaths to the NHTSA. All three of them were accused of doing that to avoid a costly recall.

The current maximum fine "per incident," or whatever they call it, is $25 million. The NHTSA hit Honda and Toyota with much more than that amount in total. Both of them were charged with failure to report. I believe Toyota settled their first claim in 2007 (9 years ago) but Honda settled their first claim in 2004 (12 years ago) and of the 13 confirmed deaths to date worldwide, only one was not in a Honda -- all older models. Honda sent a secret memo to Takata in 2009 asking them to please redesign that particular module model to make it safer.

Takata gave all sorts of excuses to the NHTSA for probably two years before the NHTSA finally got S. Takata himself (current CEO who inherited the company from his father) to Washington to testify. His testimony was apparently truthful as far as they understand it and much more accurate than previous testimony. VW tried the same approach with the EPA for well over a year before finally admitting -- AFTER the EPA warned them that they already knew exactly what they did and how they did it -- that they lied in their previous testimony. It was sort of an, okay we called Wolfsburg and they gave us the okay to tell you guys the truth now. You got us, now what. Violation of the Clean Air Act carries very weak penalties but apparently violation of the FTC's rules against "fraudulent advertising" come with stiffer penalties. The FTC filed suit against VW for deliberately false and fraudulent advertising of their "clean diesels."


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

The deaths so far are one in a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup in South Carolina and 12 in Hondas -- 9 in the U.S. and 3 in Malaysia. I know the last death in the U.S. of a young man in an older Honda that was a car that was on recall since 2009 but never taken back for repair. All three of the deaths in Hondas in Malaysia were in cars that were on recall for years but not fixed.

So far there has not been a single death in Japan, a country where both Honda and Toyota have a heavy presence and where Takata has a very large percentage of the market. The Japanese transport ministry (or whatever they call it) is so concerned about the possibility of a death that they are having the car manufacturers make phone calls to all of those owners who did not bring their car in to be fixed. And, in the case of those older model Hondas, the Japanese Transport ministry's own employees are knocking on doors demanding to know why the owner hasn't had his airbag fixed yet.


----------



## tarx3 (Jan 16, 2007)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Our dealer management was told that there are only 15,000 replacement airbags being sent to the US BMW dealers this summer. These I'm sure are like-for-like airbags as we haven't developed our own.
> 
> Now I haven't got a second source, so I really shouldn't be posting this, as a good journalist should have a confirmed second source. :angel:
> 
> ~M~


So these replacement airbags will need to be replaced again?

Does nhtsa assign which dealerships get them first?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Takata was not fined because their airbags blow up in people's faces causing serious injuries, Takata was fined for violation of laws enforced by the Dept. of Transportation that require a parts manufacturer to notify the NHTSA of any known safety defects that could present a risk to the drivers and passengers. Takata and Honda more or less conspired to keep this secret to save money. Much, much later, as in just last year, Honda and Toyota both told the NHTSA that Takata provided them with "misleading and manipulated test results." Other testimony before the NHTSA accuses Takata of deliberately concealing the fact that they knew more than a decade ago that some of the inflators did not meet the required NHTSA safety standards, which are apparently very strict, but concealed what they really know and blamed it on a variety of other problems, such as improper storage of the ammonium nitrate at certain plants and/or inadequate quality control supervision at a plant in Mexico. They concealed the fact that their own testing told them *their inflators were not as safe as required by the NHTSA*.
> 
> Takata, Honda and Toyota were all fined the maximum allowed and the NHTSA even came up with ways to hit them with multiple fines of the maximum. Takata's fine was for a total of $200 million but $130 million of that will be waived provided they comply with all their consent agreements with the NHTSA. Honda and Toyota were fined for not reporting all those serious injuries and, in Honda's case, deaths to the NHTSA. All three of them were accused of doing that to avoid a costly recall.
> 
> ...


So at the beginning was NHTSA supposed to provide the original spec to Takata, or the automakers? The "collusion" and misdirection are additional issues, but the statement "....were not as safe as required by the NHTSA" implies that NHTSA is the gold standard, so has NTHSA ever required inflators to work for 20+ years, and mandated that spec on all airbag makers?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> So at the beginning was NHTSA supposed to provide the original spec to Takata, or the automakers? The "collusion" and misdirection are additional issues, but the statement "....were not as safe as required by the NHTSA" implies that NHTSA is the gold standard, so has NTHSA ever required inflators to work for 20+ years, and mandated that spec on all airbag makers?


That's not exactly what I'm talking about. The NHTSA has a certain quality control standard that allows only a very, very low number of modules with manufacturing defects to pass through without detection and rejection. A certain production line in Mexico routinely turned off the automatic reject feature because it would detect that they were exceeding that allowable rate. Which led to one of Takata's earlier excuses: that they discovered a failure of supervision at one of their plants in Mexico. So that's what's causing this, along with improper storage of the ammonium nitrate at some plants allowing it to absorb moisture.

In other words, whatever the NHTSA's standards were as applied to Takata's manufacturing processes, Takata knowingly violated those standards. Takata still claims that no one told them their airbags had to last forever. How do you test an airbag to make sure it will last more than 20 years unless you wait 20 years? Apparently if their modules had been absolutely 100% sealed, none of this would have happened. The ammonium nitrate wouldn't have been able to absorb moisture from the atmosphere if its container was 100% airtight.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> That's not exactly what I'm talking about. The NHTSA has a certain quality control standard that allows only a very, very low number of modules with manufacturing defects to pass through without detection and rejection. A certain production line in Mexico routinely turned off the automatic reject feature because it would detect that they were exceeding that allowable rate. Which led to one of Takata's earlier excuses: that they discovered a failure of supervision at one of their plants in Mexico. So that's what's causing this, along with improper storage of the ammonium nitrate at some plants allowing it to absorb moisture.
> 
> In other words, whatever the NHTSA's standards were as applied to Takata's manufacturing processes, Takata knowingly violated those standards. Takata still claims that no one told them their airbags had to last forever. How do you test an airbag to make sure it will last more than 20 years unless you wait 20 years? Apparently if their modules had been absolutely 100% sealed, none of this would have happened. The ammonium nitrate wouldn't have been able to absorb moisture from the atmosphere if its container was 100% airtight.


The manufacturing standards enforced by NTHSA should still be tied to the original spec of 20+ years of zero failure. E.g. if the original spec does not ask for 20+ years, there will be reduced incentives to be 100% moisture sealed, maybe 99.9% is sufficient, and obviously 100%(or 99.999%) sealed will be more costly than 99.9%.

So even if NTHSA asks for 99.9%, and Takata does comply with 99.9%, it still is not 100% sealed in all units as that's not the original spec.

So who is at fault, NTHSA, automakers, Takata, or all of the above?


----------



## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

namelessman said:


> [ ... ]Another point is that, it is puzzling why airbag inflators with propellants are not maintenance items every, say, 6 years. Do fire extinguishers need to be replaced every few years?


The answer is no and not necessarily. Some fire extinguishers do need periodic maintenance to prevent the powdered component caking.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The manufacturing standards enforced by NTHSA should still be tied to the original spec of 20+ years of zero failure. E.g. if the original spec does not ask for 20+ years, there will be reduced incentives to be 100% moisture sealed, maybe 99.9% is sufficient, and obviously 100%(or 99.999%) sealed will be more costly than 99.9%.
> 
> So even if NTHSA asks for 99.9%, and Takata does comply with 99.9%, it still is not 100% sealed in all units as that's not the original spec.
> 
> So who is at fault, NTHSA, automakers, Takata, or all of the above?


We're talking about two different things. I have no idea what the original specs are as far as how long the airbag must be safe because that's what what I'm talking about. I'm talking about manufacturing standards. In other words, how many defective modules are allowed to slip through the manufacturing process and get shipped out. I know it's an incredibly small percentage because I saw it reported in an article but I forgot that number.

So I am not talking about specs in that sense of the word. What apparently happened at one production line at a Takata plant in Mexico was that they deliberately turned off the automatic feature that was designed to detect rejects. There was testimony to that effect from former employees of Takata -- namely two different engineers who didn't even know each other. They attributed it to the fact that Takata paid employees bonuses based on volume per hour, or whatever. So instead of concentrating on quality, they were pushing for volume because they benefited based on a pieces per hour rate.

At least one Takata airbag module that failed was found to contain chewing gum, which apparently came from an employee during the manufacturing process.

In answer to your final question, Takata said they don't know yet. They are conducting their own investigation to determine what caused the problem. In testimony last year before the NHTSA, Takata claimed that no one told them their airbags had to last as long as the NHTSA is now recalling them based on. In particular, they said no manufacturer told them anything about the airbag having to last 20 years in a hot humid climate. The NHTSA is adding cars to its recall list that are not expected to even begin to degrade for more than 20 years. In Canada, not a single car with a Takata airbag has been recalled by Transport Canada because they said they have received no incident reports on anything like that happening up there.

Takata may have a point but that is not what they were fined for and not the law they were found to have deliberately violated. They deliberately violated the U.S. law that requires parts manufacturers and car manufacturers to file accident reports with the NHTSA whenever a part causes serious injuries or deaths to Americans. Honda and Toyota were found to have deliberately violated the same law. Finally, just last year, Honda announced that they had opened their own internal investigation to find out why their employees had violated U.S. reporting laws. The guys in Tokyo pretended to be blissfully unaware that anything like that was going on.


----------



## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

Ninong said:


> The deaths so far are one in a 2006 Ford Ranger pickup in South Carolina and 12 in Hondas -- 9 in the U.S. and 3 in Malaysia. I know the last death in the U.S. of a young man in an older Honda that was a car that was on recall since 2009 but never taken back for repair. All three of the deaths in Hondas in Malaysia were in cars that were on recall for years but not fixed.
> 
> So far there has not been a single death in Japan, a country where both Honda and Toyota have a heavy presence and where Takata has a very large percentage of the market. The Japanese transport ministry (or whatever they call it) is so concerned about the possibility of a death that they are having the car manufacturers make phone calls to all of those owners who did not bring their car in to be fixed. And, in the case of those older model Hondas, the Japanese Transport ministry's own employees are knocking on doors demanding to know why the owner hasn't had his airbag fixed yet.


What is keeping U.S. dealers from doing the same? Is there a greater disconnect between the manufacturer and the dealer in the United States and dealers see this as the manufacturer's (or the importer's) problem and not theirs? I suspect in Japan the dealers can be told what to sell the cars for either by the manufacturer or whoever is the importer (equivalent to BMW USA.) I am guessing that neither BMW or BMW USA (and their equivalents for other imported cars) can tell their dealers to make those personal calls but that in Japan they can.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> We're talking about two different things. I have no idea what the original specs are as far as how long the airbag must be safe because that's what what I'm talking about. I'm talking about manufacturing standards. In other words, how many defective modules are allowed to slip through the manufacturing process and get shipped out. I know it's an incredibly small percentage because I saw it reported in an article but I forgot that number.
> 
> So I am not talking about specs in that sense of the word. What apparently happened at one production line at a Takata plant in Mexico was that they deliberately turned off the automatic feature that was designed to detect rejects. There was testimony to that effect from former employees of Takata -- namely two different engineers who didn't even know each other. They attributed it to the fact that Takata paid employees bonuses based on volume per hour, or whatever. So instead of concentrating on quality, they were pushing for volume because they benefited based on a pieces per hour rate.
> 
> ...


To re-emphasize, even if NTHSA asks for 99.9%, and Takata does comply with 99.9%, it still is not 100% sealed in all units as that's not the original spec.

The fact that Takata deliberately violates the 99.9% standard and only delivers 99.8%(e.g.) does not help neither, but again, who decided on 100% moisture sealed for 20+ years? Or is the required spec 99.9%?

Another perspective is that, just imagine 99.9% is the spec, for a failure rate of 0.1%. If so, the much-quoted 0.07% failure rate will be more than 40% better than the spec. Some food for thought.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

1northcar said:


> What is keeping U.S. dealers from doing the same?


Dealers? I didn't say anything about dealers. I said car manufacturers. The dealers don't send out recall notices. The car manufacturers do. What I read and what I reported here, is that car manufacturers in Japan are calling people at the urging of the Japanese Transport ministry and government employees are actually visiting the homes of some people to find out why they haven't had their cars fixed.



> Is there a greater disconnect between the manufacturer and the dealer in the United States and dealers see this as the manufacturer's (or the importer's) problem and not theirs? I suspect in Japan the dealers can be told what to sell the cars for either by the manufacturer or whoever is the importer (equivalent to BMW USA.) I am guessing that neither BMW or BMW USA (and their equivalents for other imported cars) can tell their dealers to make those personal calls but that in Japan they can.


I have no clue what dealers in Japan are doing.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> To re-emphasize, even if NTHSA asks for 99.9%, and Takata does comply with 99.9%, it still is not 100% sealed in all units as that's not the original spec.
> 
> The fact that Takata deliberately violates the 99.9% standard and only delivers 99.8%(e.g.) does not help neither, but again, who decided on 100% moisture sealed for 20+ years? Or is the required spec 99.9%?
> 
> Another perspective is that, just imagine 99.9% is the spec, for a failure rate of 0.1%. If so, the much-quoted 0.07% failure rate will be more than 40% better than the spec. Some food for thought.


I have no clue what the specs are and I have no clue what constitutes a "defective module," only that Takata blamed a lake of supervision at one or more of their manufacturing facilities, especially one plant in Mexico. Critics pointed out that employees at that particular plant in Mexico were paid on a per-piece basis, or a per-piece bonus, which doesn't make sense if you're producing something like this.

I don't know if any of the modules were considered defective because of an inadequate seal or not. I don't know why they were defective. Only that whatever the acceptable rate was for allowing a defective module to go through was being exceeded seven-fold. At least I remember that part... I think.

Maybe you can find the answers you are looking for by using google?


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

namelessman said:


> Another point is that, it is puzzling why airbag inflators with propellants are not maintenance items every, say, 6 years. Do fire extinguishers need to be replaced every few years?


I remember back in 1994 when I bought a brand new 1994 Nissan Altima, the manual said the airbags must be inspected and replaced if needed at the 10 year mark. The same thing was written in the owners manual of a 1995 Mazda Millenia and later a 1997 Mazda Millenia S that I had.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Quatro40 said:


> I remember back in 1994 when I bought a brand new 1994 Nissan Altima, the manual said the airbags must be inspected and replaced if needed at the 10 year mark. The same thing was written in the owners manual of a 1995 Mazda Millenia and later a 1997 Mazda Millenia S that I had.


So it was an industry practice to service/replace airbags after 10 years before the turn of the century, so what was the mandate that changed that around 2000? :dunno:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Maybe you can find the answers you are looking for by using google?


The NTHSA publicly available documents do not provide any hints, and there is not much online that provides any new clue. The Takata documents submitted to NTHSA may have additional info, but those docs are not linked on NTHSA webpage.

BTW, this is an interesting article, PSAN is truly rocket science. 

http://www.wickmanspacecraft.com/psan-i.html


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Quatro40 said:


> I remember back in 1994 when I bought a brand new 1994 Nissan Altima, the manual said the airbags must be inspected and replaced if needed at the 10 year mark. The same thing was written in the owners manual of a 1995 Mazda Millenia and later a 1997 Mazda Millenia S that I had.


If that is still their policy, then it doesn't work because both Nissan and Mazda are heavily affected by the Takata airbag recall. I don't know what they would actually inspect since the inflator module is built into the airbag and the whole thing is one sealed unit that gets replaced in a recall like this one.

I believe Takata switched to ammonium nitrate propellant in the late 1990's. Since then all of their airbags have used it but for some reason certain inflator module models are more prone to failure than others. The PSDI-4 models failed in testing at a rate of 9 out of 12,464 airbags tested but the PSPI-I models failed in testing at a rate of 180 out of 8,320. That's a significant difference that cannot be explained by random chance. The first 765,000 BMWs recalled have PSDI-4 inflators. The second batch of 840,000 BMWs recalled have PSDI-5 inflators.

I guess we will find out soon which BMWs, if any, are part of the 14 million airbags Takata announced just yesterday morning as being "recalled for investigative purposes." That's like the Japanese whaling fleet saying they're killing whales to study them.


----------



## Quatro40 (Jun 3, 2015)

namelessman said:


> So it was an industry practice to service/replace airbags after 10 years before the turn of the century, so what was the mandate that changed that around 2000? :dunno:


I'd like to know too.


----------



## JP 99300 (Sep 29, 2004)

angler said:


> I agree, plus everyone has different risk tolerances. People need to do what they feel most comfortable with. For me I haven't given it anymore thought since I leased for another year. The only thing I wonder about is what will the offer be next year when most of the cars that were re-leased still aren't fixed. Should be interesting....


Yes, I'm wondering the same thing. Very likely the airbag won't be fixed at the end of the 12 month re-lease period, and at that time BMW may just have to GIVE us the cars if they want us to keep them longer since they will be out of warranty and out of free maintenance....


----------



## tarx3 (Jan 16, 2007)

In addition to the problem of the airbags, what about a BMW sitting unused for months?

My 07 x3 had to be moved out of the way, barely started;
Then brakes wouldn't work. Rust.

This is after a month.
Wonder where my car is in the priority list.
Northern state, built in 06.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

tarx3 said:


> In addition to the problem of the airbags, what about a BMW sitting unused for months?
> 
> My 07 x3 had to be moved out of the way, barely started;
> Then brakes wouldn't work. Rust.
> ...


If your car barely started after only a month you may have already had a battery that was on its way out. The rotors will get surface rust very fast but you can clear it off usually within a mile or so.


----------



## tarx3 (Jan 16, 2007)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> If your car barely started after only a month you may have already had a battery that was on its way out. The rotors will get surface rust very fast but you can clear it off usually within a mile or so.


Have a 6 month old new battery.

The rust has been an issue in the past after only a few days
sitting. We'll see.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Quatro40 said:


> I'd like to know too.


Another interesting read.

"Mercedes-Benz, on the other hand, was a bit more conservative. The automaker installed airbag replacement labels on all vehicles sold in the U.S. through roughly 2002, says Diedra Wylie, a spokesperson for Mercedes-Benz. The labels called for new airbags at the 15-year mark. After 2002, Mercedes research concluded that the *airbags it produced after January 1, 1992 would last the life of the vehicle*, Wylie says."

So did MB define the lifetime of a car in HAH and high solar load areas to be 6 years? :dunno: Do note there was no recalled MB airbag from 2002 to 2004, so the lifetime claim was OK until 2005(C230 Kompressor).

Apparently the 15-year requirement was due to plastic-to-metal sealing. Since 2002 the tech has been shifted to glass-to-metal sealing, which is expected to be "lifetime".

http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/do-car-airbags-expire.html
http://thelemonlawattorneys.com/blog/do-airbags-expire/


----------



## flaggrad00 (Jun 21, 2011)

Is this why there are virtually no CPO e9x cars for sale on the bmw website?


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

flaggrad00 said:


> Is this why there are virtually no CPO e9x cars for sale on the bmw website?


highly likely


----------



## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

need4speed said:


> highly likely


 No, it's far more likely that there are only a relative handful of E90-era cars left that were enrolled before their eligibility lapsed. The maximum age for CPO certification is 5yr/60,000mi; the vast majority of the E90 generation is now over five years old.


----------



## flaggrad00 (Jun 21, 2011)

Zeichen311 said:


> No, it's far more likely that there are only a relative handful of E90-era cars left that were enrolled before their eligibility lapsed. The maximum age for CPO certification is 5yr/60,000mi; the vast majority of the E90 generation is now over five years old.


E90 yes, i agree, 11 was the last year of those but the e92 and e93 should still be around. There are a ton of 13 and to a lesser extent 12 f30's around, what other reason could there be that there are so few coupes and verts from the same model year?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

flaggrad00 said:


> E90 yes, i agree, 11 was the last year of those but the e92 and e93 should still be around. There are a ton of 13 and to a lesser extent 12 f30's around, what other reason could there be that there are so few coupes and verts from the same model year?


Is there any 2012 and 2013 E92 and E93 for sale at dealer? Those should be part of the recall and hence stop sale applies to them.


----------



## flaggrad00 (Jun 21, 2011)

namelessman said:


> Is there any 2012 and 2013 E92 and E93 for sale at dealer? Those should be part of the recall and hence stop sale applies to them.


Yes that was my initial suggestion, that the recall was severely limiting the availability of cpo e9x cars for sale. Zeichen311 was suggesting they were timed out of the cpo program, i countered the e92 and e93 should not be timed out. There are a few for sale, i am guessing they either had the airbag replaced or are being sold when they are not supposed to be.

Any chance bmw will change the rules for the cpo's for the affected cars?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

flaggrad00 said:


> Yes that was my initial suggestion, that the recall was severely limiting the availability of cpo e9x cars for sale. Zeichen311 was suggesting they were timed out of the cpo program, i countered the e92 and e93 should not be timed out. There are a few for sale, i am guessing they either had the airbag replaced or are being sold when they are not supposed to be.
> 
> Any chance bmw will change the rules for the cpo's for the affected cars?


We are anxiously waiting to see how BMW responds to the NHTSA studies and report. Knowing the level of risk is lower for newer cars, we hope that the stop-sale will be lifted.

It's a hope ...

~M~

p.s. Keep in mind that not all VINs for the model years listed in the recall are affected. Dealers look at each VIN and will certainly put a car on the lot if it doesn't have the recall. We've seen it here with a few X1's and some 3-series coupes and sedans. So yes the CPO inventory is down, but if an affected model year car is on a BMW lot, it's likely due to an OK VIN versus a repaired airbag.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

flaggrad00 said:


> Yes that was my initial suggestion, that the recall was severely limiting the availability of cpo e9x cars for sale. Zeichen311 was suggesting they were timed out of the cpo program, i countered the e92 and e93 should not be timed out. There are a few for sale, i am guessing they either had the airbag replaced or are being sold when they are not supposed to be.
> 
> Any chance bmw will change the rules for the cpo's for the affected cars?


The way the law is written the stop-sale only applies to new cars, new car manufacturers and their dealers. However, the FTC has ruled that CPO cars cannot be sold until after they are repaired if the manufacturer has named them in a recall because that would amount to fraudulent advertising. GM and two large national chain dealers were accused of doing exactly that earlier this year and they were forced by an FTC ruling to stop. That is a different law altogether and it is enforced by the FTC, not the Dept. of Transportation.

BMW has instructed dealers to not sell any cars named in the recall until after they are repaired but apparently at least one national chain dealership, and possibly other dealers, have sent some cars that were not CPO'd to the auction before they were repaired because parts were not available to fix them. I don't know if any dealers are retailing non-CPO BMWs that are named in the recall before they are repaired. Obviously the new car dealership cannot retail an unrepaired CPO BMW because that would violate the FTC ruling.

That doesn't stop used car dealers, such as CarMax from buying unrepaired cars at auction and then retailing them to the buying public. According to CarMax, they do not check for open recalls on any of the cars they sell but always inform the buyer on delivery that he should register his car with the manufacturer in order to be informed of any recalls. Somehow CarMax claims that it is in the customer's best interests to do it that way. Efforts to change the law to make it apply to used cars and used car dealers instead of just new cars and new car dealers have so far been blocked in Congress.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> We are anxiously waiting to see how BMW responds to the NHTSA studies and report. Knowing the level of risk is lower for newer cars, we hope that the stop-sale will be lifted.


That would be great news, given my local dealer is running out of space on stop sale cars. The SA said that is also affecting how many serviced cars they can take in as even keeping the cars for a few days for service can be tricky. My guess though is BMWNA will not lift any stop sale as none of the other automakers are doing that, it takes convictions and guts to be the first.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> We are anxiously waiting to see how BMW responds to the NHTSA studies and report. Knowing the level of risk is lower for newer cars, we hope that the stop-sale will be lifted.
> 
> It's a hope ...
> 
> ~M~


Fingers crossed.

I finalized basics of a deal on a CPO E93, only to have the stop sale nix the deal before we could pass paperwork. Car is currently sitting behind the dealer's with my name on a huge sheet of paper over the dash so as soon as the stop sale is lifted it doesn't get accidentally sold to anyone else. Been holding off on purchase of one for a couple years as I wanted someone else to eat the depreciation, and I wanted the CPO warranty. Looks like I waited a tiny bit to long! If this persists (non-HAH location, 2013, I may move on to a 911 vert after having been a near lifelong BMW owner. If the 911 had a hardtop vert, I'd already have bailed.


----------



## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Fingers crossed.
> 
> I finalized basics of a deal on a CPO E93, only to have the stop sale nix the deal before we could pass paperwork. Car is currently sitting behind the dealer's with my name on a huge sheet of paper over the dash so as soon as the stop sale is lifted it doesn't get accidentally sold to anyone else. Been holding off on purchase of one for a couple years as I wanted someone else to eat the depreciation, and I wanted the CPO warranty. Looks like I waited a tiny bit to long! If this persists (non-HAH location, 2013, I may move on to a 911 vert after having been a near lifelong BMW owner. If the 911 had a hardtop vert, I'd already have bailed.


Per Ninong's immediate above post perhaps you can talk your dealer into wholesaling the car to CarMax and you can then buy it from them? Have you checked to see if CarMax already has the car you want in their inventory?


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

IMO...Walk away and don't look back. It's just a car and not worth all the hassle.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Based on the bulletin yesterday, the stop sale on CPO and pre-owned is still in place.

~M~


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Based on the bulletin yesterday, the stop sale on CPO and pre-owned is still in place.
> 
> ~M~


Was there anything else in the bulletin worth sharing?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

1northcar said:


> Per Ninong's immediate above post perhaps you can talk your dealer into wholesaling the car to CarMax and you can then buy it from them? Have you checked to see if CarMax already has the car you want in their inventory?


Oh, no! :yikes:

I didn't recommend doing that, I just said it's legally possible. However, if we're talking about a BMW dealer, remember that he is under instruction from BMW of North America not to do that. Mike Jackson, the CEO of AutoNation was confronted in an interview last month and he finally confirmed that, starting way back in December 2015, his company has been sending "all brands" of cars with open recalls to the auction because they considered it impossible to keep that many trade-ins indefinitely waiting for parts to fix them. What is significant about the December date is that just three weeks before he made a big show of saying that his company would never do something like that.

You, as an individual, will be unable to sell your car with an open recall directly to CarMax if it is currently leased through BMW Financial Services because they're the owner and they will refuse to accept payoff. If you are successful in trading it in to a BMW dealership, that BMW dealership assumes ownership from BMWFS when they pay it off.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Was there anything else in the bulletin worth sharing?


Head to the Sticky ... I posted more info there.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=909783

~M~


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Ninong said:


> Oh, no! :yikes:
> 
> I didn't recommend doing that, I just said it's legally possible. However, if we're talking about a BMW dealer, remember that he is under instruction from BMW of North America not to do that. Mike Jackson, the CEO of AutoNation was confronted in an interview last month and he finally confirmed that, starting way back in December 2015, his company has been sending "all brands" of cars with open recalls to the auction *because they considered it impossible to keep that many trade-ins indefinitely waiting for parts to fix them*. What is significant about the December date is that just three weeks before he made a big show of saying that his company would never do something like that.
> 
> You, as an individual, will be unable to sell your car with an open recall directly to CarMax if it is currently leased through BMW Financial Services because they're the owner and they will refuse to accept payoff. If you are successful in trading it in to a BMW dealership, that BMW dealership assumes ownership from BMWFS when they pay it off.


ya think?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Based on the bulletin yesterday, the stop sale on CPO and pre-owned is still in place.
> 
> ~M~


Yes!

It's just that the law applies to new cars only, which is why it's legal for CarMax to sell a car with an open safety recall and legal for a rental car company to rent you one without telling you it has an unrepaired safety issue.

CPO cars of all manufacturers are covered under the FTC's ruling that it would constitute consumer fraud for the dealer to sell one of those because of the advertising claims made by all manufacturers about how well they were inspected and reconditioned and now covered by a manufacturer warranty. Because the manufacturer's reputation is on the line, it makes sense that he should be able to control those. I think it may still be an open question whether a manufacturer can prevent a dealer from violating an order that is not covered under law? Maybe BMWNA can find a way to call it a violation of the dealer agreement?

The loophole in current laws and regulations comes in when we get to a used car that has not yet been CPO'd. Those are the trade-ins that some dealers are reportedly sending to the auction with a notice on their windshield informing all potential buyers of the unrepaired recall. Apparently those dealers' have legal advice assuring them that that will work to relieve them of future liability. The manufacturer's stop-sale is apparently only legally enforceable on new cars in dealers' inventories. CPO used cars are covered under a ruling by the FTC.

Do you remember when Dieselgate first broke? There was confusion among some VW and Audi dealerships over whether they could still sell used Dieselgate cars whose VIN's showed up on VW's recall list. The response, at least in the beginning, was uneven. And that's not a direct safety issue and nothing ordered by the DOT but by the EPA as a violation of the Clean Air Act. The next big Dieselgate problem that hasn't come up yet is how to force an owner to being his car in for the recall knowing that it will result in his car being less powerful and less fuel-efficient. Obviously if there is a cash incentive involved that he only receives if, and when, his car is fixed, that may do the trick.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> I think it may still be an open question whether a manufacturer can prevent a dealer from violating an order that is not covered under law? Maybe BMWNA can find a way to call it a violation of the dealer agreement?


That I think is exactly the shackle they are using.



Ninong said:


> The loophole in current laws and regulations comes in when we get to a used car that has not yet been CPO'd. ... CPO used cars are covered under a ruling by the FTC ...


The FTC ruling covers all used cars. The Consent Order for my company, Lithia, was based on advertised claims made on our 60-day, 3,000 mile warranty. So with us, if it's a BMW under 80,000 miles, we have that warranty, so we now can't sell those based on the FTC ruling.

It's a quagmire.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> ya think?


Obviously in spite of the several hundred dollars a month in financial assistance from the factory some dealers have concluded that it is an unreasonable expectation that there will be a viable way for them to retail several months' worth of used car sales in a single month once they are repaired.

[RANT] You don't have to have a Ph.D. in mathematics to understand that you can't take in 1.6 million trade-ins when that's four times your total annual sales of brand new cars in this country. Right now the average new car grosses have fallen by more than $250 across all lines and used car prices are under pressure because of the increase in trade-ins. Used car grosses are also down. Manufacturers are taking a big hit because they know they won't ever recover anything near what this is costing them from Takata, assuming they recover anything at all. Daimler just announced that they have set aside $560 million to cover unrecoverable Takata airbag losses. BMW's losses to date probably exceed $1 billion and they could easily climb to multiples of that number if more customers come in demanding a rental car (non-existent in some markets). Where do these people think the rental car companies are going to find that many additional rental cars?

The situation is a gigantic mess. And customers who want to punish the car manufacturers and drive them all out of business because there is an infinitesimal chance they IF they have a front-end collision they could be injured by a defective airbag that is the result of a criminal coverup by Takata in Japan are causing most of the problem. Demanding a rental car replacement -- a really dumb idea in the first place -- while your perfectly good BMW just sits there in the dealer's storage gathering dust (maybe somebody will pump a hose on it once a week) is insane. Gleefully posting about how much you're costing BMW per month makes you look stupid, not smart.

Maybe all 60+ million people affected by the Takata airbag recall will all sign up for participation in class actions lawsuits. Maybe the number will grow to more than 100 million? Who do you think will get rich off that? The same people who always get rich in class action lawsuits: the lawyers! [/RANT]

P.S. -- Obviously I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about certain people on this thread.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> [RANT] The situation is a gigantic mess. [/RANT]


Yes, it is. BMW should eliminate the rental car program or tailor any rental/loaner program for high risk/Zone 1 exposed cars only.

We are suffering from our own creativity.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> ~M~


Here's another one of my current rants. The professional stock market analysts are paying too much attention to BMW's YTD sales numbers in the USA compared to Mercedes and Lexus and ignoring the fact that BMW's YTD worldwide sales are BETTER than last year's numbers and last year was another record year for BMW.

We know one of the major reasons BMW's YTD numbers in the USA are depressed and we expected this. It's not a shock but it was apparently an unexpected shock to some analysts, who now think BMW is losing market penetration in its second largest market and this is a bad omen or something. BMW is still absorbing Spec '8' cars that some dealers went crazy on in the last quarter of 2015 to help BMW retain its first place in the U.S. and first place in the world for one more year. I'm glad that stuff went away but it's still giving BMWNA a hangover, literally.

In spite of BMW's reassurance in their quarterly conference call that they were still on track for a slight increase in total sales, as well as total profit, this year some analysts point to their YTD decline in the U.S. as evidence that they won't be able to keep that prediction. BMW is always conservative in their estimates. The only thing that is unexpected that will hurt profits this year is the Takata mess. If they say they still expect to sell more cars than last year, I would be more inclined to believe them than not. It's quite possible, even probable, that Mercedes will be No. 1 in the world for 2016 but hopefully not in the U.S., too. Lexus will probably be No. 1 in the U.S. this year. Audi had a chance to be No. 1 in the world this year before Dieselgate came up and hit them in their derriere. Now they will probably be third in the world and somewhere way down the list in the U.S., as usual.

It will kill Mercedes if Lexus beats them in the U.S. this year. They're already convinced that BMW cheated them at least twice in the past five years by being more 'creative' in their accounting. Don't forget that before that horrible earthquake and tsunami in Japan, Lexus had been No. 1 in the U.S. for a decade. Before that it was Mercedes but that was almost a generation ago. The Germans put a lot of emphasis on being No. 1 in the U.S. even though it's not nearly as potentially important as China.


----------



## Design1stCode2n (May 16, 2006)

I didn't even know about this until this Saturday when I went to a Mini dealer to get a trade-in evaluation on my M3. This is ridiculous I can't trade in my car? So I'm stuck with it for who knows how long as I haven't' been able to determine what priority group I'm in.

How in the hell are they allowed to get away with this?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Design1stCode2n said:


> I didn't even know about this until this Saturday when I went to a Mini dealer to get a trade-in evaluation on my M3. This is ridiculous I can't trade in my car? So I'm stuck with it for who knows how long as I haven't' been able to determine what priority group I'm in.
> 
> How in the hell are they allowed to get away with this?


What year is it and why can't you trade it in?


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Correct. Interim or "like for like" airbag parts have been shipped to dealers to begin replacement on in-stock CPO X1, X5, and X6s.
> 
> See post #73 on this Thread: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=909783
> 
> ~M~


If one were to get a replacement Like for Like air bag- do you lose out on the trade in assistance?

In other words does the manufacturer to dealer incentive still apply? I recall June 30th being the cut-off date according to the current toolkit.

I have a 2013 X5 that is financed with BMWFS.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Design1stCode2n said:


> I didn't even know about this until this Saturday when I went to a Mini dealer to get a trade-in evaluation on my M3. This is ridiculous I can't trade in my car? So I'm stuck with it for who knows how long as I haven't' been able to determine what priority group I'm in.
> 
> How in the hell are they allowed to get away with this?


You can trade it in to Car max or sell it yourself. A BMW dealer could buy it, but then is not allowed to sell it, so the dealer has very little incentive to buy your car. Of course it is also worth less now, as a large part of the "buyer" end of things is gone, at least for now. Good luck. N4S


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Design1stCode2n said:


> I didn't even know about this until this Saturday when I went to a Mini dealer to get a trade-in evaluation on my M3. This is ridiculous I can't trade in my car? So I'm stuck with it for who knows how long as I haven't' been able to determine what priority group I'm in.
> 
> How in the hell are they allowed to get away with this?


If the dealer chooses to participate, the affected car can still be traded in with $4k of trade-in assistance from BMWNA to dealer(to account for reduced trade value from open safety recall), as well as assistance from BMWNA to dealer to keep the car until fix is done.

Our local dealers still participate, even when they have 200-300 stored cars each on their lots.


----------



## Design1stCode2n (May 16, 2006)

Its a 2011 M3. I am going to probably have to go to carmax or similar but I lose almost $2k in tax savings when I do that versus trade-in.

I have about 10 weeks before the car comes in so maybe I'll get lucky. I have contacted BMWNA so I'll see where that goes.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> If the dealer chooses to participate, the affected car can still be traded in with $4k of trade-in assistance from BMWNA to dealer(to account for reduced trade value from open safety recall), as well as assistance from BMWNA to dealer to keep the car until fix is done.
> 
> Our local dealers still participate, even when they have 200-300 stored cars each on their lots.


Be careful with the Trade-in Benefits. The highest amount as noted on other posts is $4,000 for X5 and X6 models 2012/13.

All 2011 or older affected models get $2,000 of trade in assistance.

M


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Arciga18 said:


> If one were to get a replacement Like for Like air bag- do you lose out on the trade in assistance?
> 
> In other words does the manufacturer to dealer incentive still apply? I recall June 30th being the cut-off date according to the current toolkit.
> 
> I have a 2013 X5 that is financed with BMWFS.


The factory-to-dealer assistance only applies to cars that are affected by the recall. Once the airbag is replaced, it's no longer affected by the recall and can be sold. All of the factory-to-dealer assistance, including the monthly allowance for storage and depreciation, ceases once the parts are received by the dealer.

In other words, your car is probably no longer eligible either way once the replacement parts are received by the dealer and you receive the second letter telling you to call to make an appointment to have it fixed. Whether you choose to ignore the letter or not probably won't make any difference on how BMW treats that car because the dealer will no longer be able to claim any assistance on it from BMW. Even if you show up at the dealership and attempt to trade it in unrepaired he's still probably not going to get anything back from BMW.

For the dealer to get any financial assistance of any sort on the trade-in, it has to be a car that is affected by the Takata airbag recall *and* be one for which replacement parts are still unavailable. That's because he would have to hold that car waiting for parts. If he has the parts, he no longer has to hold it, he can sell it right away.

The NHTSA is authorizing like-for-like airbag replacements because better replacements are not available and they realize that it is impossible to make them appear out of thin air by waving their magic wand. Then, once better replacements that don't use ammonium nitrate become available, you would receive a notice telling you to bring the car in to have the airbag replaced again.

I think it's important to remember that all of the financial assistance is factory-to-dealer assistance. Yes, it says it's effective until the end of June but they can change that anytime they feel like it. Maybe that's why it said it did not apply to ordered cars and only cars out of dealer inventory. The bottom line is that once the parts to fix that car are available, it ceases being qualified for assistance because the stop-sales order on it is lifted.

That won't be a problem with the 38 million cars affected by the new expanded recall because those customers won't even know (officially) that their car is recalled until they receive the notice telling them to make an appointment to have it fixed. At least that's the way I expect it to be handled.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Design1stCode2n said:


> Its a 2011 M3. I am going to probably have to go to carmax or similar but I lose almost $2k in tax savings when I do that versus trade-in.
> 
> I have about 10 weeks before the car comes in so maybe I'll get lucky. I have contacted BMWNA so I'll see where that goes.


As long as the car is not owned by BMWFS, there is nothing to stop you from trading it in, or selling it to anybody you please. If it's named in the Takata airbag recall, then the BMW dealer receives $2,000 financial assistance on it to assist him in offering you a reasonable trade-in value.

Only if the car is leased (meaning it's owned by BMWFS) would you be prevented from selling it to CarMax or anybody you pleased. As long as you own the car -- even if it's currently financed -- you can trade it in anywhere.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> As long as the car is not owned by BMWFS, there is nothing to stop you from trading it in, or selling it to anybody you please. If it's named in the Takata airbag recall, then the BMW dealer receives $2,000 financial assistance on it to assist him in offering you a reasonable trade-in value.
> 
> Only if the car is leased (meaning it's owned by BMWFS) would you be prevented from selling it to CarMax or anybody you pleased. As long as you own the car -- even if it's currently financed -- you can trade it in anywhere.


It is rare that BMW leases go beyond 36 months, but let's assume a 2011 is still under lease, so is the 12-month extension applicable to those 2011?


----------



## Design1stCode2n (May 16, 2006)

Ninong said:


> As long as the car is not owned by BMWFS, there is nothing to stop you from trading it in, or selling it to anybody you please. If it's named in the Takata airbag recall, then the BMW dealer receives $2,000 financial assistance on it to assist him in offering you a reasonable trade-in value.
> 
> Only if the car is leased (meaning it's owned by BMWFS) would you be prevented from selling it to CarMax or anybody you pleased. As long as you own the car -- even if it's currently financed -- you can trade it in anywhere.


Well I can't trade it in anywhere as I tried to get an evaluation as a condition for ordering my wife's Mini Clubman and they wouldn't touch it with the airbag recall right on the Carfax check. They said as soon as it was fixed they would take it but not before.

I'm attempting to talk with BMWNA and get more information. Perhaps they can persuade the dealer or alert them to the incentives. Perhaps since it' is a Mini dealer and not a BMW dealer they are not eligible or perhaps just unaware?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Arciga18 said:


> If one were to get a replacement Like for Like air bag- do you lose out on the trade in assistance?
> 
> In other words does the manufacturer to dealer incentive still apply? I recall June 30th being the cut-off date according to the current toolkit.
> 
> I have a 2013 X5 that is financed with BMWFS.


I don't have a definitive answer on that.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Design1stCode2n said:


> I'm attempting to talk with BMWNA and get more information. Perhaps they can persuade the dealer or alert them to the incentives. Perhaps since it' is a Mini dealer and not a BMW dealer they are not eligible or perhaps just unaware?


That's likely the case. While MINI NA and MINIFS are separate entities under the same umbrellas. MINI dealers might not even know about the financial options.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> It is rare that BMW leases go beyond 36 months, but let's assume a 2011 is still under lease, so is the 12-month extension applicable to those 2011?


It is only available for affected vehicles MY2012 and newer. Remember, based on their definition, an affected vehicle is one with a Takata-airbag recall notice for which parts are not available to repair it.

There used to be a time, many years ago, when BMW's lease residuals were realistic across the board as far as number of months of the lease term. Back then it was just as common for customers to choose 42 or 48 months rather than 30 or 36 months because 48 months offered a lower monthly payment and that's what was important to some buyers.

P.S. -- MY2011 and older qualify for the $2,000 Trade Benefit.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> MINI dealers might not even know about the financial options.
> 
> ~M~


And my guess is that Mini dealers are not eligible for them.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I don't have a definitive answer on that.


Doesn't every one of those benefits require proof that the car is currently affected by the Takata recall _and_ that parts are not available to fix it?

There is no need to assist the dealer on the trade of any car that can be sold. The financial assistance is to entice him to take in cars that cannot be sold. No problem with cars that can be sold, which is why the entire "Toolkit" limits the assistance to cars that cannot be sold. And even after you take in one of those cars, your monthly payments cease as soon as the parts are available.

Once the car is fixed, it is no longer subject to the stop-sales order. The customer can sell it or trade it in at any dealership. BMWFS will accept an authorization to pay it off because it won't have that stop-sales order.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Ninong said:


> Doesn't every one of those benefits require proof that the car is currently affected by the Takata recall _and_ that parts are not available to fix it?
> 
> There is no need to assist the dealer on the trade of any car that can be sold. The financial assistance is to entice him to take in cars that cannot be sold. No problem with cars that can be sold, which is why the entire "Toolkit" limits the assistance to cars that cannot be sold. And even after you take in one of those cars, your monthly payments cease as soon as the parts are available.
> 
> Once the car is fixed, it is no longer subject to the stop-sales order. The customer can sell it or trade it in at any dealership. BMWFS will accept an authorization to pay it off because it won't have that stop-sales order.


Fair Points.

I live In Chicago. I would argue that the car is in the Group 2.

The availability of "like for like" airbags depends on the dealer placing an order for a replacement airbag and the order being "approved" for a car that is not on the dealer lot and not zone 1. That is how I interpret the information.

Since it is not very clear I thought I would throw out my scenario in the mix.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Arciga18 said:


> Fair Points.
> 
> I live In Chicago. I would argue that the car is in the Group 2.
> 
> ...


Okay, that makes it more of a local dealer issue. However, if the local dealer has been told by BMW that they will supply him with a replacement airbag for every one of those that he takes in trade, then it removes one of the key points he must prove to claim any of the financial assistance benefits.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Okay, that makes it more of a local dealer issue. However, if the local dealer has been told by BMW that they will supply him with a replacement airbag for every one of those that he takes in trade, then it removes one of the key points he must prove to claim any of the financial assistance benefits.


This is interesting, Michael mentioned this before:

"Two-pronged approach:
They are sending replacements direct to dealers for recent model X1, X5, and X6s that are in dealer inventory
Dealers can order replacements direct from BMW, and they will be distributed based on the Zone and age criteria
"
So if a pending trade with outstanding recall is in, say, Zone B/2, can dealer still order replacement airbag, and lose BWMNA financial assistance benefits, even if the replacement may be at lowered priority and won't arrive for months?


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Ninong said:


> Okay, that makes it more of a local dealer issue. However, if the local dealer has been told by BMW that they will supply him with a replacement airbag for every one of those that he takes in trade, then it removes one of the key points he must prove to claim any of the financial assistance benefits.


Super Interesting Issue.

-If the owner requests a replacement airbag, it seems like the answer is wait your turn in line.

-If the owner trades in the vehicle, they **may** not get the trade in benefit because the dealer will be able to get a replacement part from BMW. How quickly this will happen depends on the VIN, MY, location assuming cars on the dealer lot get priority followed by Group 1 owners.....

:dunno::dunno:

The reason I ask is that I finally came across a X3 thats worthy of talking numbers but it is in OHIO...

I didn't see the post from Namelessman. But he pretty much hit on my question also....


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Arciga18 said:


> Super Interesting Issue.


Not sure if it's an "issue." It's a roll-out of the like-for-like airbags based on priority.



Arciga18 said:


> -If the owner requests a replacement airbag, it seems like the answer is wait your turn in line.


Yes, that is correct. But if you have an older BMW in Zone 1, you will be at the top of the list. This is based on NHTSA's requirement, not BMWs sense of priority.



Arciga18 said:


> -If the owner trades in the vehicle, they **may** not get the trade in benefit because the dealer will be able to get a replacement part from BMW. How quickly this will happen depends on the VIN, MY, location assuming cars on the dealer lot get priority followed by Group 1 owners .....


Not sure how the 'Fest folks are getting the idea that the Trade-in Benefit won't be honored for vehicles still under the recall. *It hasn't been fixed yet!* Vehicles will only come off the stop sale after they have had replacements. Not until then. Vehicles get the Trade-in Benefit, because they haven't been fixed yet.

Don't read more into it than exists.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> This is interesting, Michael mentioned this before:
> 
> "Two-pronged approach:
> They are sending replacements direct to dealers for recent model X1, X5, and X6s that are in dealer inventory
> ...


He said they're sending replacements direct to dealers for recent model X1, X5 and X6's that are in dealer inventory. Once the dealer takes in another one of those cars, the replacement airbag kit is available by virtue of the car being in his inventory, therefore he won't be able to claim the assistance. That's my interpretation of it. Michael said he doesn't have a "definitive answer" on that question yet.

Every one of the benefits in the dealer's Toolkit is strictly a factory-to-dealer benefit that is available to the dealer at his discretion. To take advantage of any benefit, he must submit a claim proving two things: the car is affected by the Takata recall *and* the parts are unavailable to repair it. If the parts *are* available, then his claim will be rejected. If he has already claimed the payment, they will simply charge it back against his account once they finish auditing his claims. To get paid the continuing monthly assistance for storage and depreciation, the car must be in his inventory and the parts must still be unavailable and he must submit an R.O. monthly for reimbursement. Once the parts become available, that monthly assistance ceases because that means he can fix it and sell it.

If any of those benefits had been factory-to-customer assistance and advertised to the affected customers directly that would be different. It's all factory-to-dealer and the dealer can take it or leave it -- aka "dealer participation may vary." He doesn't receive anything on a car that he takes in trade that is not subject to a stop-sales order and all of these cars for which he can get replacement airbags have parts available to fix them. All they have to do is ask. The ONLY purpose of the assistance is to compensate for the fact that those cars could not be sold because parts were not available to fix them.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Not sure how the 'Fest folks are getting the idea that the Trade-in Benefit won't be honored for vehicles still under the recall. *It hasn't been fixed yet!* Vehicles will only come off the stop sale after they have had replacements. Not until then. Vehicles get the Trade-in Benefit, because they haven't been fixed yet.
> 
> Don't read more into it than exists.
> 
> ~M~


The comment of ".... it removes one of the key points he must prove to claim any of the financial assistance benefits" still implies that if airbag "can be ordered", the trade benefits and financial assistance benefits will be voided, since the criterion of "parts are unavailable" is not met, correct?

So it sounds like for cars that cannot get parts for months(e.g. priority too low) still will have trade and financial assistance, since "parts are unavailable" is still true.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Yes ... if it hasn't been fixed, it's still under recall. Simplicity.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Not until then. Vehicles get the Trade-in Benefit, because they haven't been fixed yet.


I don't believe that's correct. The dealer qualifies for the Trade Benefit on an affected car not based on whether it has been fixed or not but whether he can get the parts to fix it or not. That's the whole purpose of offering the dealer assistance in the first place. It's ONLY for cars that cannot be sold because the parts are not available to fix them.

I'm not reading anything extra into anything. I think maybe you are by thinking that the car itself qualifies for something. It's the dealer who qualifies for something provided he can prove that he took it in trade, that it is affected by the Takata recall and that the parts to fix it are unavailable.

By your definition a car that hasn't been fixed it qualifies regardless of whether the dealer can get the parts to fix it. I seriously doubt that because that wasn't the purpose of the assistance in the first place.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Yes ... if it hasn't been fixed, it's still under recall. Simplicity.


By that definition, if I have a 2013 X5 and I receive a letter telling me to call to make an appointment to bring my car in to have the airbag replaced next Wednesday but I decide to trade it in on Tuesday, it qualifies for $4,000 Trade Benefit on Tuesday but not on Thursday because on Tuesday it "hasn't been fixed" yet but on Thursday it will be.

Or how about this scenario. You call up all your 2013 X5 and X6 customers and tell them to come on down now to take advantage of an extra $4,000 trade-in allowance. Then you pop in replacement airbags next week, CPO them and have them on the front line the following week?

Does any of that make sense? Because that's exactly what you just said.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

What type of allowance does my 13 X1 qualify for?


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

What type of allowance does my 13 X1 qualify for? I own it.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> By that definition, if I have a 2013 X5 and I receive a letter telling me to call to make an appointment to bring my car in to have the airbag replaced next Wednesday but I decide to trade it in on Tuesday, it qualifies for $4,000 Trade Benefit on Tuesday but not on Thursday because on Tuesday it "hasn't been fixed" yet but on Thursday it will be.
> 
> Or how about this scenario. You call up all your 2013 X5 and X6 customers and tell them to come on down now to take advantage of an extra $4,000 trade-in allowance. Then you pop in replacement airbags next week, CPO them and have them on the front line the following week?
> 
> Does any of that make sense? Because that's exactly what you just said.


My wild guess is that if the part can be ordered from the system/warehouse for immediate shipping, the trade and financial assistance benefits will be voided by BMWNA even the order is not placed nor shipped.

This gives incentives to the dealers to order the parts, fix the affected cars, and put them back in non-stop sale status ASAP, since there is no benefit to not do so.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm going to have to back out of this discussion. Situations are being presented just for the sake of discussion and debate that I don't think are reasonable. 

And the basic facts being ignored.

Dealers are getting airbag components to put into the dozens to hundreds of vehicles they own. Not future trade ins. What they have on the ground right now.

Dealers can order replacement parts for service clients, and those parts are being distributed based on NHTSA's zone and age priority.

That's it. It can't get more straightforward than that.

Any other scenario is just making things up.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Dealers are getting airbag components to put into the dozens to hundreds of vehicles they own. Not future trade ins. What they have on the ground right now.
> 
> Dealers can order replacement parts for service clients, and those parts are being distributed based on NHTSA's zone and age priority.


So based on these basic rules, a 2013 X5 with open recall can still receive trade benefits($4k), and the dealer can still claim financial assistance benefits on that car as long as the replacement part(even if it is sitting on a shelf at parts department) is not installed on the car.

Is the above correct?


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

namelessman said:


> So based on these basic rules, a 2013 X5 with open recall can still receive trade benefits($4k), and the dealer can still claim financial assistance benefits on that car as long as the replacement part(even if it is sitting on a shelf at parts department) is not installed on the car.
> 
> Is the above correct?


Again, you are presenting a nonsensical scenario.

The "parts on the shelf," will either be:


VIN assigned to a Dealer Inventory vehicle that's been set aside, or
For a specific client that meets the Zone criteria for a priority interim airbag

It isn't common sense to think based on all we know about the airbag recall that dealers will have interim replacement "sitting on the shelf at the Parts department."

They are *getting* parts for vehicles they own that have been mothballed and they are *ordering* parts for owner's vehicles based on the NHTSA Zone Priority.

There won't be any sitting on the shelf.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> By that definition, if I have a 2013 X5 and I receive a letter telling me to call to make an appointment to bring my car in to have the airbag replaced next Wednesday but I decide to trade it in on Tuesday, it qualifies for $4,000 Trade Benefit on Tuesday but not on Thursday because on Tuesday it "hasn't been fixed" yet but on Thursday it will be.
> 
> Or how about this scenario. You call up all your 2013 X5 and X6 customers and tell them to come on down now to take advantage of an extra $4,000 trade-in allowance. Then you pop in replacement airbags next week, CPO them and have them on the front line the following week?
> 
> Does any of that make sense? Because that's exactly what you just said.


No, your second scenario is nonsensical.

We have NO idea if the first supply of components will even completely fill the need for the sales inventory and service loaners vehicles we have mothballed. Add to that number the lease returns that haven't even been CPO'd yet because they can't.

And as I stated, the parts going into these cars are VIN-specific. What's the chance that there as so many airbags now that they can create VIN-specific components in a week.

Your first scenario is plausible, but again just silly.

OK, I'll go to the dealer and ask for the $4,000 trade in benefit and accept a low trade in value, as the sales folks don't know you can come in and get it fixed. So you get a trade benefit that's washed out by the current trend in valuation.

And if you know in a week that you are getting a refreshed airbag and are good for 6-20 years, why the heck would you want to even do this? You didn't want to trade it in anyway? (At least that's what I read here and hear from my clients.)

I think it's a disservice to people who want to get reasonable advise on the issue to present these highly unlikely scenarios to poke holes in things. It just causes confusion.

~M~


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

12 Handicap said:


> What type of allowance does my 13 X1 qualify for? I own it.


After all these crazy scenarios, I will do what I haven't done before and disclose that the Trade-in Benefit for a 2013 X1 is $2,500.

~M~


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> They are *getting* parts for vehicles they own that have been mothballed and they are *ordering* parts for owner's vehicles based on the NHTSA Zone Priority.
> 
> There won't be any sitting on the shelf.
> 
> ~M~


Right, they are all getting replacement airbags for vehicles they already "own" in their inventory because as soon as they receive those parts those cars are no longer eligible for financial assistance from BMW. So those are all going out with all deliberate speed.

Here's a new question, in addition to the previous ones I raised. BMWFS should not be able to force you to keep the trade-in if you want to push it back on them because now you will be able to get the parts to fix it in two or three days and send it back to them if you don't want it. Maybe you have more than enough of them already and don't need any more. By the way, can you now force them to take back any of the previous ones you took in? Probably not if you were claiming monthly "depreciation," right? I think you're stuck with those. If they didn't offer you monthly depreciation, then you probably could have forced them to take them back once you fixed them.

Obviously the only purpose a benefit like the Trade Benefit in the first place was to assist you in offering a better appraisal on that trade-in that you can't sell but now that you can get the parts to fix it, you no longer have that problem. It's in the same category as any other BMW you might take in trade. Maybe BMW hasn't even thought through all of those questions. If you ask them, then maybe that's when they will point out their disclaimer at the bottom of your Toolkit: "BMW NA reserves the right to change, modify or cancel the programs at any time, as it deems appropriate in its sole discretion." Yes, they have been known to do that when the program in question is an internal one. Or maybe they will simply send out a "clarification."


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

12 Handicap said:


> What type of allowance does my 13 X1 qualify for? I own it.


It's $2,500 as long as you don't get it fixed but zero as soon as you get it fixed. "Once the Affected Vehicle has been fixed, customer no longer qualifies for the Trade Benefit." From page 14 of Michael's "Toolkit."

So, since you're in Florida, if you receive a recall letter in the next couple of weeks, just remember that, according to Michael's explanation, you qualify for the benefit because you have an unrepaired Affected Vehicle. Maybe so. I'm just telling you that BMW says you no longer qualify once you get it fixed. They may not be all that clear about what happens if you try to trade it in unrepaired even though parts are available to fix it but they're very clear that you do not qualify for anything once you have it fixed.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Again, you are presenting a nonsensical scenario.
> 
> The "parts on the shelf," will either be:
> 
> ...


The "parts on the shelf" comment is to address *when* exactly the cars lose eligibility of trade and financial assistance benefits. The ordered parts can arrive at parts department's shelves but not yet installed.

It is true that in previous safety campaigns(e.g. F30 brake vacuum pump), the recall on a specific car is not closed until the fixes/installations are completed, but of course in those recalls there have been no manufacturer-to-dealer benefits tied to the recalls.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ok, I give up.

You can fret and worry that on the eve of getting your sweet deal on your recall car, unbeknownst to you your replacement parts arrived and the dealer will say, "Oh we can't do this now."

SMH.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> After all these crazy scenarios, I will do what I haven't done before and disclose that the Trade-in Benefit for a 2013 X1 is $2,500.
> 
> ~M~


Thank you Michael, these guys have gone to outter space in this tread. Too many what if's.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> You can fret and worry that on the eve of getting your sweet deal on your recall car, unbeknownst to you your replacement parts arrived and the dealer will say, "Oh we can't do this now."


A CA said something similar to my friend who is trading in a MY12 X5, namely, they can't determine if the trade value should be with or without the recall given parts can be ordered. The SA/parts guy is also confused how and when to order part for the specific car.

The original plan was to close the deal this week, and their new plan is to revisit in a month(after their planned traveling).


----------



## zx10guy (Jan 27, 2014)

Just an FYI. I had my wife's 2013 Acura RDX in for service yesterday at the dealership. My wife listed the airbag as a item to be taken care of during the routine oil change along with fixing the creaking driver's side mirror. To my surprise when I went in to pick up the car for her, the service writer said the airbag recall was completed. I asked him if this was a permanent fix or an interim until they received the correct parts. He said the fix was permanent. Pretty shocked Acura was able to get a fix out with all this chaos going on with all the affected cars. The service writer did say for some reason the RDX along with a select few other models in the 2013 model year run were quickly addressed while other models are still awaiting parts.

I didn't get a chance to ask if the replacement was another Takata airbag. I'll try to remember to ask the service writer when I bring her car back in for service as they have to order a part to fix the driver's side mirror. I also find it strange we didn't get anything in the mail or a phone call telling us to schedule the car to have the recall done.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting like the rest of us for the recall on my 2013 135i to be addressed. I'm still driving my car but have a bigger concern than the low probability of the airbag going off throwing shrapnel in my face. My car with the DCT has developed a nasty lurch when going at sub 20 MPH speeds slowing with the brakes applied. A few times while coming to a stop and braking while off the throttle, the car momentarily jumped. Fortunately, this is happening at low speeds and with enough space between my car and the car in front of me. Had I not been applying the brakes, even with the spacing I had with the car in front of me, I am certain I would be dealing with rear ending someone. We'll see what the dealer does when I bring my car in for the next scheduled maintenance which should be in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Just ran VIN through NHTSA's site and suddenly no recalls (2013 E93), and I know the recall has not been performed. Unusual. A number of folks on M3 site have noticed the same in the last few days.


----------



## EH6TunerDaniel (Mar 29, 2016)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Just ran VIN through NHTSA's site and suddenly no recalls (2013 E93), and I know the recall has not been performed. Unusual. A number of folks on M3 site have noticed the same in the last few days.


Thats weird. I just did the same with my 13 X5 and it shows no recalls as well.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Thats weird. I just did the same with my 13 X5 and it shows no recalls as well.


Not weird at all, when large amounts of money are involved, it's funny how things get "fixed"


----------



## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

EH6TunerDaniel said:


> Thats weird. I just did the same with my 13 X5 and it shows no recalls as well.


Whoa!
Same here - my '13 X5 that I turned in to the dealer under the CCLTB - VIN shows no open recall on safecar.gov!:dunno:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Just ran VIN through NHTSA's site and suddenly no recalls (2013 E93), and I know the recall has not been performed. Unusual. A number of folks on M3 site have noticed the same in the last few days.


Is this 2013 E93 already stored at dealer?


----------



## LINewYork (Oct 28, 2008)

The 2013 128 Vert that I have a deposit on (at a BMW dealer) no longer has an open recall.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

namelessman said:


> Is this 2013 E93 already stored at dealer?


Yes, we have an agreement to sell/buy between us as soon as the recall is complied with, or the stop sale is lifted.

Others are noticing it for cars they currently own: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1241128&page=5


----------



## zeddy (May 11, 2011)

back in late february, when this blew up for BMWs, I checked BMW's website and saw that my 07 e92 328i was included in the recall

several weeks later, received a card in the mail for the recall

debated whehter I wanted to contact a dealer and get a rental, decided it wasn't worth it. Did not make any dealer contact whatsoever

just checked today on both BMW and NHTSA websites - no open recalls

Odd...


----------



## zeddy (May 11, 2011)

back in late february, when this blew up for BMWs, I checked BMW's website and saw that my 07 e92 328i was included in the recall

several weeks later, received a card in the mail for the recall

debated whehter I wanted to contact a dealer and get a rental, decided it wasn't worth it. Did not make any dealer contact whatsoever

just checked today on both BMW and NHTSA websites - no open recalls

Odd...


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

If you are OK with doing so, please send me the last 7 of your VIN. I'd like to see if it is off the recall status in the BMW internal system.

Thanks,

Michael


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

I wouldn't doubt it is a system glitch...similar to the Obama care website debacle...


----------



## des16 (Jul 24, 2005)

*Rental*

I have a 2006xi being driven by my daughter in Virginia. The dealer keeps telling me that the airbag will arrive soon. Does anyone know if that is the case and when I can anticipate it arriving? Have any been shipped yet? I did speak with him about a rental. But apparently there is a problem with her being only 23 years old. Enterprise will no allow a premium car to be driven by a minor. Has anyone else run into this problem. He said that a loaner is difficult and the rental car is the only potential option, although, that will also take time. I would appreciate hearing about other's experiences. Thanks.


----------



## LINewYork (Oct 28, 2008)

The recalls are not showing up on both the SAFECAR.GOV website and the BMWUSA website.


----------



## zeddy (May 11, 2011)

Thanks to Michael @ Seattle BMW for checking into my VIN

My 07 e92 328i was not showing any open recalls on either BMWs recall check website, or NHTSA's safercar website

Michael ran my vin through BMWs internal database and found these results:



> Open Campaign Information
> Campaign Code Campaign Description
> 0000001100 Recall 16V-071 Driver Front Air Bag B650


Must be a database glitch somewhere along the line for public reporting...


----------



## renaultf1 (Sep 16, 2010)

I just spoke with a rep on BMW's Customer Relations line and they indicated that their database was down. They could look up a VIN for me but according to them, their customer facing page where you enter your VIN isn't working at the moment...even though it looks like it does work.


----------



## Soson (May 25, 2016)

2012 X5 also showing no recall anymore


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

So we're pretty OK with our rental so far, nearly 2 months in, and we just realized that Enterprise has charged us for the insurance on the car. My understanding was that BMWNA was going to cover the cost of both rental and insurance. Any ideas? Do we complain to BMWNA or Enterprise?


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Had the dealer check the key and the recall is still in the BMW system . It is a glitch


----------



## tarx3 (Jan 16, 2007)

L-F-C said:


> So we're pretty OK with our rental so far, nearly 2 months in, and we just realized that Enterprise has charged us for the insurance on the car. My understanding was that BMWNA was going to cover the cost of both rental and insurance. Any ideas? Do we complain to BMWNA or Enterprise?


I would start with Enterprise.

My rental is 5 weeks so far; no charges yet.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ebs0712 said:


> Does anybody know the amount of the Trade-in Benefit for a 2008 328xi sedan (E90)?


$2,000 provided your car has an open Takata airbag recall and provided the parts are not available to fix it. The dealer receives the money to assist him in offering you a trade-in value on a car that he must store until after he fixes it and who knows when that will be?

In order for you to indirectly benefit from this Trade Benefit, you must successfully negotiate a deal that is mutually acceptable to both you and the dealer.



> Is there a time limit on using this Trade-in Benefit?


Currently the expiration date is June 30, 2016 but since this is an internal program it can change at any time if BMWNA wants to change it.


----------



## LINewYork (Oct 28, 2008)

Anyone know how many repair kits BMW dealers are getting each week? 

A dealer in NC told me they received 6 last week, all VIN specific.


----------



## LINewYork (Oct 28, 2008)

Anyone know how many repair kits BMW dealers are getting each week? 

A dealer in NC told me they received 6 last week, all VIN specific.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

LINewYork said:


> Anyone know how many repair kits BMW dealers are getting each week?
> 
> A dealer in NC told me they received 6 last week, all VIN specific.


The only ones they are receiving right now, that I know of, are VIN specific and must be installed in the vehicle bearing that VIN.

Those repaired vehicles will have to be recalled again to have these like-for-like airbags replaced once better ones become available. What the NHTSA has authorized is the installation of available 'fresh' Takata airbags but since they contain ammonium nitrate without a desiccant as the propellant, they will have to be brought back in at a later date to have those removed and replaced.

The problem is that the NHTSA recalled 28.8 airbags before this most recent announcement of the recall of another 38 million airbags in five waves between now and December 31, 2019. Takata announced a couple of weeks ago that they were recalling 14 million airbags as part of that recall. I assume they will be the first wave. As of right this minute, I still do not see anything on the NHTSA's website announcing anything about this recall.

Keep in mind that the NHTSA determines priority in the distribution of available airbags, not the car manufacturers and not Takata. Even before this latest recall, there were a total of 60 million recalled Takata airbags worldwide. Then the NHTSA said they were recalling another 38 million. Then a week or so later Japan announced the recall of another 7 million or so, bringing their total number of recalled Takata airbags to 20 million.

After you add the last 38 million to the prior 60 million you end up with a total of ~100 million worldwide, before you add in the ones just announced by Japan and the others yet to be announce by other countries. The worldwide total is probably closer to 120 million at this point but it could potentially rise to 287.5 million.

The parts manufacturers who produce these replacement parts do not presently have the capacity to produce as many airbags as the NHTSA has recalled as quickly as the NHTSA and the car manufacturers would like. No one can wave a magic wand and make them materialize out of thin air.

*This morning BMW announced the recall of 92,000 additional vehicles*. We can add those to the previously recalled 1,605,000. Mercedes, by the way, added another 200,000 vehicles to their previously recalled ones. I believe the 2.5 million announced this morning by 6 vehicle manufacturers concludes the total of 14 million announced by Takata a couple of weeks ago. So I think we're done with the first wave. Now it's just a matter of waiting for the NHTSA to add those VINs to their official list on their website.

The way I understand it, recall notices for the first wave are supposed to go out on a "just in time basis," meaning that replacement parts are supposed to be available to fix them before the letter goes out to the vehicle. That way they won't be freaking out demanding replacement transportation for a car that is "safe to drive" according to BMW *and* according to the NHTSA.

Cars that are considered not as safe to drive would be older cars in hot, humid climates, especially cars that are more than 8 years old. Those might have anywhere from a 0.07% to a 2.16% chance of failure in an airbag deployment. BMW is not aware of any failure of a Takata airbag inflator module in any of their vehicles.

Earlier this year BMW said they expected to have all, or almost all, of the replacement parts necessary to repair all of their 1.605 million on recall by the end of this summer or no later than early spring 2017. However, that was before the NHTSA more than doubled the number of cars on recall. So I don't know what they expect now. All of the car manufacturers want this problem to go away as soon as possible but they have little control over it at this point.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

LINewYork said:


> Anyone know how many repair kits BMW dealers are getting each week?
> 
> A dealer in NC told me they received 6 last week, all VIN specific.


The kits are being distributed in two "groups:"


Kits for 2013 or newer CPO X1, X5, and X6 models are being sent to dealers based on the VINS they have in their Pre-Owned Information System (POIS)
Customer kits are being distributed based on the risk Zone and then by open recall repair order
All of these are VIN-specific, so that BMW can track when the inflator was installed and where it will live relative to the risk Zones.

Remember, these are replacement gas generators of the same type. They will need to be replaced "down the road."

~M~


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Ninong said:


> *This morning BMW announced the recall of 92,000 additional vehicles*.


Do we have a list of affected vehicles?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

*NHTSA announced that effective June 1, 2016 Rental Car Companies Are Covered by FAST Act of 2015*

Beginning June 1, 2016, rental car agencies must fix any and all open safety defects before renting out vehicles to customers. http://www.autorentalnews.com/chann...6/06/safe-rental-car-act-effective-today.aspx


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> Do we have a list of affected vehicles?


I don't think so. This is just something that is being reported in the news this morning: http://fortune.com/2016/06/02/over-2-million-cars-recalled/

That makes a total of 16.4 million vehicles from 15 different car manufacturers recalled just since last week. That's in addition to the 28.8 million previously recalled. I assume that the most recent recalls constitute the first wave of the new five-wave recall that will stretch over the next three and a half years.

I don't know when the individual VINs will be added by the NHTSA to their website but, based on all previous reports, this will be a just-in-time recall. The parts to repair your car are supposed to be available when the manufacturer sends you the recall letter.


----------



## MarkR37 (May 24, 2016)

I wonder if Takata is going to need a bail out to be able to continue?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

MarkR37 said:


> I wonder if Takata is going to need a bail out to be able to continue?


I guess that depends on their share of the cost of the replacement airbags. Believe it or not, they are still claiming that no one has determined the cause of this problem, therefore they are not able to accept responsibility for the estimated $100 cost of a replacement airbag.

We're not talking about any of the other consequential damages, just the cost of the replacement part itself. That alone amounts to more than $6 billion so far. Their current market cap is less than $250 million and their current assets are estimated to be worth less than $1 billion.

Takata has been in discussions with Honda and Toyota about assistance in restructuring but those talks have been reported to be non-productive. I don't know how that law works in Japan but it's possible that potential interested parties would include Honda at the top of the list. The problem is the potential outstanding liability. It's not just the cost of the airbags that is hanging over Takata, there are numerous pending lawsuits.

P.S. -- To put things in perspective, Takata had a market cap of more than $3 billion in January 2014.


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> The kits are being distributed in two "groups:"
> 
> 
> Kits for 2013 or newer CPO X1, X5, and X6 models are being sent to dealers based on the VINS they have in their Pre-Owned Information System (POIS)
> ...


Any word on bags for the other vehicles in that 1st category (2013 or newer CPO)? There's many more models beyond the X1, X5, X6 needing them.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Any word on bags for the other vehicles in that 1st category (2013 or newer CPO)? There's many more models beyond the X1, X5, X6 needing them.


The Customer Kits are for any vehicle. Not just those models. Again, with the Zone and age priority set by NHTSA.

~M~


----------



## 3Pedals_6Speeds (Jun 14, 2009)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> The Customer Kits are for any vehicle. Not just those models. Again, with the Zone and age priority set by NHTSA.
> 
> ~M~


Right, not asking about customer kits, CPO's (your 1st group you listed - POIS cars).


----------



## wiggles (Jul 16, 2005)

Ninong said:


> BMW is not aware of any failure of a Takata airbag inflator module in any of their vehicles.


Not true. BMWNA's rep testified to a Congressional Committee that there was a Takata airbag rupture event in a 3 series vehicle that took place in Switzerland in 2003.

Regardless, the fact that BMW has no reported deaths or injuries does not mean that Takata airbags installed in BMW cars are any less risky than Takata airbags in Honda cars. It could be due to BMW drivers being older safer drivers with a greater investment in their vehicles that they drive more cautiously and are less likely to be involved in frontal injury accidents that trigger airbag deployment. Or it could be that BMW drivers are more affluent consumers who change out their cars more frequently before aging of Takata airbag sets in.

I own a low mileage older beauty that I've babied over the years with meticulous maintenance care and frankly I am pretty peeved that BMWNA chose to go the distance with an unscrupulous company like Takata - a company that had previously gotten into trouble for producing defective seat belts. Now that BMWNA is back pedaling and trying to make so called amends offering customers loaners and rental cars and interim fixes of a new defective Takata airbag (new/old who cares? having a Takata airbag has in one fell swoop depreciated the value of my car thru no fault of my own) does not erase the simple obvious fact that BMWNA corporate suits went for cheap instead of safe airbags. They installed cheap risky airbags to save $100 or so on $60,000+ vehicles. That's reprehensible behavior. As for the 13 deaths and 100 injuries thrown around by MSM - those are false figures - Honda was fined $70 Million in 01/2015 for not reporting 1,729 deaths and injuries due to Takata airbags. Honda is 1 of 14 car makers who dealt with Takata. How do we know the other 13 car makers did not do the same as Honda? Maybe they haven't been caught yet. Why haven't the 1729 victims or their families been interviewed by the press? 5 words - non disclosure buy out agreements. This Takata scandal is a much serious matter than we're led to believe. The NHTSA is a joke. They knew of Takata airbag rupture events since 2008 and they sat on their hands until 2014.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

3Pedals_6Speeds said:


> Right, not asking about customer kits, CPO's (your 1st group you listed - POIS cars).


No news. Nada.

Michael


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

wiggles said:


> Not true. BMWNA's rep testified to a Congressional Committee that there was a Takata airbag rupture event in a 3 series vehicle that took place in Switzerland in 2003.
> 
> Regardless, the fact that BMW has no reported deaths or injuries does not mean that Takata airbags installed in BMW cars are any less risky than Takata airbags in Honda cars. It could be due to BMW drivers being older safer drivers with a greater investment in their vehicles that they drive more cautiously and are less likely to be involved in frontal injury accidents that trigger airbag deployment. Or it could be that BMW drivers are more affluent consumers who change out their cars more frequently before aging of Takata airbag sets in.
> 
> I own a low mileage older beauty that I've babied over the years with meticulous maintenance care and frankly I am pretty peeved that BMWNA chose to go the distance with an unscrupulous company like Takata - a company that had previously gotten into trouble for producing defective seat belts. Now that BMWNA is back pedaling and trying to make so called amends offering customers loaners and rental cars and interim fixes of a new defective Takata airbag (new/old who cares? having a Takata airbag has in one fell swoop depreciated the value of my car thru no fault of my own) does not erase the simple obvious fact that BMWNA corporate suits went for cheap instead of safe airbags. They installed cheap risky airbags to save $100 or so on $60,000+ vehicles. That's reprehensible behavior. As for the 13 deaths and 100 injuries thrown around by MSM - those are false figures - Honda was fined $70 Million in 01/2015 for not reporting 1,729 deaths and injuries due to Takata airbags. Honda is 1 of 14 car makers who dealt with Takata. How do we know the other 13 car makers did not do the same as Honda? Maybe they haven't been caught yet. Why haven't the 1729 victims or their families been interviewed by the press? 5 words - non disclosure buy out agreements. This Takata scandal is a much serious matter than we're led to believe. The NHTSA is a joke. They knew of Takata airbag rupture events since 2008 and they sat on their hands until 2014.


Yep, all you say could very well be true. Thanks for putting it out there as succinctly and passionately as you did. We might not agree on all your points, but the points are well taken.

Michael


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Yep, all you say could very well be true.


Well, it's not, so relax.


----------



## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Ok that wasn't so friendly. I can't say unequivocally what bmw execs did or did not know.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wiggles said:


> Not true.


Usually I am more careful in my statement than I was in that one. What I usually I say is: *"BMW has not received any reports, nor is BMW otherwise aware, of any injuries or deaths related to this issue."* That is a true statement.

Or I sometimes say, "BMW is not aware of the failure of a Takata airbag inflator module in any BMW anywhere in the world in the past 10 years." That's another true statement.



> BMWNA's rep testified to a Congressional Committee that there was a Takata airbag rupture event in a 3 series vehicle that took place in Switzerland in 2003.


Actually, no, he did not testify to that because he was unaware of that 2003 incident when he testified before the Subcommittee of Commerce, Manufacturing and Trade Hearing on "Takata Airbag Ruptures and Recall" on December 3, 2014.

Maybe one of the reasons he didn't know about that incident more than 10 years earlier in Switzerland was because it did not involve injuries or death. It took an internal review by BMW to discover that there was an incident in Switzerland in 2003 involving a BMW 3-series vehicle. In that incident the driver-side frontal airbag inflator ruptured without causing injury or death. BMW contacted Takata at the time and Takata informed BMW that its analysis revealed that the most likely root cause was propellant overland (i.e., the overfilling of the inflator with excessive wafers during the production process). Subsequently, Takata advised that the 2003 event in Switzerland is not related to the current long term high temperature and humidity issue.

NHTSA was not informed of the incident in 2003 because the TREAD Act only requires the reporting of foreign fatalities. No death was associated with this event.



> Regardless, the fact that BMW has no reported deaths or injuries does not mean that Takata airbags installed in BMW cars are any less risky than Takata airbags in Honda cars. It could be due to BMW drivers being older safer drivers with a greater investment in their vehicles that they drive more cautiously and are less likely to be involved in frontal injury accidents that trigger airbag deployment. Or it could be that BMW drivers are more affluent consumers who change out their cars more frequently before aging of Takata airbag sets in.


Those points might be true if you're trying to explain why BMW has received no reports of any injuries in a BMW vehicle caused by the failure of a Takata airbag inflator module. Mercedes has received no such reports either. So many all of those drivers are more careful? Maybe that's why 12 people have died in a Honda and one in a Ford Ranger but none in any other cars?

However, that's not the basis for the assertion that Hondas fail at a higher rate than the group of vehicles, including BMW and several others, that tested at a much, much lower failure rate. All of those numbers, which are on file with the NHTSA, are based on tests of more than 30,000 Takata airbags that was ordered by the NHTSA. I have previously posted the exact figures in two or three previous posts so I won't bother looking them up again. Go back and read them if you are uninformed. The bottom line is that the Takata models used in those Hondas failed at a rate of 2.16% (1 in 46) and the models used in BMWs failed at a rate of 0.07% (1 in 1,429). That's from tests conducted by Takata on more than 30,000 recalled Takata airbags mainly from South Florida, Puerto Rico, Guam and other hot humid climates.



> I own a low mileage older beauty that I've babied over the years with meticulous maintenance care and frankly I am pretty peeved that BMWNA chose to go the distance with an unscrupulous company like Takata...


BMW? What about the other manufacturers, most of whom have never had a single injury or death caused by a Takata airbag inflator failure in one of their cars. There are now 17 or 18 car manufacturers involved. What about Mercedes? What about Audi? What about GM? What about VW? About FCA? And on and on.



> Now that BMWNA is back pedaling and trying to make so called amends offering customers loaners and rental cars...


Back pedaling? From what? They're going out of their way to try to keep their customers happy. Too far out of their way as far as I am concerned. I think it is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing in the law requiring that the manufacturer furnish substitute transportation, especially for weeks or months on end. This has already cost them more than $1 billion! It's absurd. For what? Your chances of being killed by a meteorite are greater than your chances of being killed in a BMW by your Takata airbag. In fact, I was happy to see that GM is fighting the NHTSA on recalling their large pickup trucks that have never experienced a Takata airbag inflator rupture because their design is not the same as the others being recalled. It has a different system for venting excessive gasses when the inflator module is fired.

The NHTSA has decided, in their infinite wisdom, that every inflator module containing ammonium nitrate must be recalled in spite of not testing a single failure in some of those models. Not all Takata models that contain ammonium nitrate have the same design. The NHTSA is only authorized by law to order a recall if there is evidence to support that recall.

For the ammonium nitrate to absorb moisture from the air, the module housing must be poorly constructed allowing that moisture to seep in very gradually over time. In some instances it can begin to degrade in as little as 6-9 years but in other situations it won't being to degrade until after more than 25 years. No, I have no idea how they tested that to reach that conclusion. By the way, Transport Canada did not recall a single car in Canada for Takata airbag problems because they have not received any reports of Takata airbag failures there. BMW and some other manufacturers have recalled their vehicles in Canada if they are the same models recalled in the U.S.



> ... and interim fixes of a new defective Takata airbag (new/old who cares?


Do you think BMW likes that idea? Do you think they like the idea of putting another Takata airbag in a car knowing that they have to recall that same car again within the next two years to replace it with a better airbag? That's the NHTSA's idea to meet their artificial deadlines, which they set with absolutely no regard for what is possible. Now they are upping the recall in the U.S to 67 million airbags. The worldwide title is now over 100 million.

The NHTSA sets the deadlines and then the NHTSA determines priority for the distribution of scarce replacement parts. Now the NHTSA is saying that they should replace a Takata airbag with a fresher Takata airbag if they don't have the parts (controlled by the NHTSA) to meet the NHTSA's arbitrary deadlines. So BMW is now receiving Takata airbags with an exact VIN on each one and that's the car it must go in because BMW will be auditing the R.O.'s. Then sometime in the future, probably in 2018, all of those cars will have to be recalled again to have those airbags replaced. Great!



> ...having a Takata airbag has in one fell swoop depreciated the value of my car thru no fault of my own)


Cars depreciate all the time for various reasons that are no fault of the owner's.



> ... does not erase the simple obvious fact that BMWNA corporate suits went for cheap instead of safe airbags.


Do you really think BMWNA is in charge of those decisions? BMWNA is the exclusive importer of BMW vehicles in the U.S. You mean BMW Group.



> They installed cheap risky airbags to save $100 or so on $60,000+ vehicles. That's reprehensible behavior.


That's a ridiculous charge! BMW had no reason to suspect that there was a problem with Takata's airbags. Honda lied and failed to report to the NHTSA. Toyota lied and failed to report to the NHTSA. Takata lied to the NHTSA as well as to both Honda and Toyota. All three of them have been fined by the NHTSA.

If you think some sort of "reprehensible behavior" is involved, they aim that against Takata, Honda and Toyota as I have repeatedly. Not BMW or Mercedes or Audi or any of the other manufacturers caught up in this mess because of the failures of Takata, Honda and Toyota. Especially Honda!



> As for the 13 deaths and 100 injuries thrown around by MSM - those are false figures


It's 13 deaths attributed to the failure of a Takata airbag inflator (the last 2 in Malaysia are including in that total but they have not yet been confirmed). One of those was in a 2006 Ford Ranger Pickup in South Carolina that hit a cow in December 2015. The number of confirmed injuries is 139.



> - Honda was fined $70 Million in 01/2015 for not reporting 1,729 deaths and injuries due to Takata airbags.


They were fined for failure to report 1,729 incidents involving injuries for all causes. Their reporting sucked! However, the law only requires the reporting of fatalities unless it happened in the U.S. Honda has all of the confirmed deaths on their website with exact dates of the incidents. I believe the first death they report on their website was in 2009. There was a previous report in the press that they settled their first Takata-airbag related claim in 2004 but that was apparently for injury, not death. Yes, all of those settlements always include a non-disclosure condition. That's the way it always is and it's not something unique to the car manufacturers. Honda sent a secret memo to Takata in 2009 asking them to please redesign their inflator modules "to make them safer."

You are free to believe that or not but there is no proof of any kind that they lied about other deaths. I have read nothing one way or the other on that. Claims to the contrary are nothing more than speculation.



> Honda is 1 of 14 car makers who dealt with Takata.


The total is now either 17 or 18 car manufacturers.



> How do we know the other 13 car makers did not do the same as Honda? Maybe they haven't been caught yet.


Maybe we'll find Jimmy Hoffa's body?



> They knew of Takata airbag rupture events since 2008 and they sat on their hands until 2014.


I assume you've read the law, right? They have to have evidence to back up a recall. They have to have a reason to order an investigation. They follow the law the way it is written, not the way some politicians think it should work. Finally Congress did pass a new amendment making rental car agencies subject to the law. They can no longer, as of June 1, 2016, rent you a car with an open safety recall on it. Now all we need to do is extend that law to used cars and used car dealers, as well as increase the maximum fines from the present $25 million per incident to $300 million per incident. A certain political party that runs things in Congress right now doesn't believe in "more government regulations."


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> Ok that wasn't so friendly. I can't say unequivocally what bmw execs did or did not know.


Well, it's a sworn statement under oath, but you're free to believe as you please. Here is the official statement if you care to take the time to read it: http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/I...113-IF17-Wstate-WestbrookC-20141203-SD002.pdf

That response is now part of the official record under oath, but go right ahead and challenge the credibility of officials of the manufacturer whose products you represent.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> Can you someone please post a TL;DR summary.
> 
> We have a 2012 E93 CPO and want to sell the car. If I understand correctly, the dealers CAN accept the car on a trade-in but very likely will not since they can not resell.
> 
> ...


If you have a 2012 BMW 3-series convertible and you have received a recall notice on it and the parts to repair it are currently not available, then the next question is whether you own it outright, or are financing it through BMWFS, or are leasing it through BMWFS.

If you own it outright or are financing it through BMWFS, then if you and the dealer can agree on a deal that is mutually acceptable, the dealer will receive a $3,000 Trade In Benefit to assist him in giving you an acceptable trade-in allowance. If you are leasing the car through BMWFS, then instead of that benefit, the dealer is authorized to have BMWFS waive your remaining lease payments provided your lease expires before the end of 2016.

Those internal guidelines from BMW to the dealers expire June 30, 2016. What follows, nobody knows.


----------



## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

Ninong said:


> If you have a 2012 BMW 3-series convertible and you have received a recall notice on it and the parts to repair it are currently not available, then the next question is whether you own it outright, or are financing it through BMWFS, or are leasing it through BMWFS.
> 
> If you own it outright or are financing it through BMWFS, then if you and the dealer can agree on a deal that is mutually acceptable, the dealer will receive a $3,000 Trade In Benefit to assist him in giving you an acceptable trade-in allowance. If you are leasing the car through BMWFS, then instead of that benefit, the dealer is authorized to have BMWFS waive your remaining lease payments provided your lease expires before the end of 2016.
> 
> Those internal guidelines from BMW to the dealers expire June 30, 2016. What follows, nobody knows.


Thank You!

I am financing through non BMWFS though that should not matter. Let me try to see what they offer on a trade-in


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> Thank You!
> 
> I am financing through non BMWFS though that should not matter. Let me try to see what they offer on a trade-in


Good luck! :thumbup:

You're right. It doesn't matter whether you finance through them or not. This is a safety-related issue from BMWNA. It's not something put on by BMWFS as one of their promos.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

So is that it ? All is good here in Bimmer land? My 13 X1 has taken such a depreciation hit since last Oct. the if it keeps this up in 2 years I will have to pay someone to buy it !!!!


----------



## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

12 Handicap said:


> So is that it ? All is good here in Bimmer land? My 13 X1 has taken such a depreciation hit since last Oct. the if it keeps this up in 2 years I will have to pay someone to buy it !!!!


I doubt it's any worse than normal, is this your first time buying a luxury car? how many miles on it? These things did not depreciate any worse than nomral, dealers ARE using it to get good deals on trades no doubt about that but retail values are doing the straight line average depreciation


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

12 Handicap said:


> So is that it ? All is good here in Bimmer land? My 13 X1 has taken such a depreciation hit since last Oct. the if it keeps this up in 2 years I will have to pay someone to buy it !!!!


There's a couple other factors involved. The introduction of the new X1 for 2016 impacted all previous years. And, dealers have 2015 retired service loaners in the market as well as 2016's, which can make for a compelling lease option that could beat the loan payments on the '13's.

Michael


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Went to Elmhurst BMW today to see what kind of deal could be worked out.

I had already picked out an MY2016 X4 demo that was listed "at around invoice". It had 440 miles so it seemed like a fine price for a new car with a high residual. It would let me avoid all of the haggling and it still would let me qualify for the BMW CCA rebate.

You can see the car here. MSRP is 57,320 and "sale price" 53,469.

Owners Choice Payment came in at $819 with only tags, title, doc fee due at signing ( ~$365. Yes, those are the type of crap deals you see in Chicago).

I made the mistake of not getting a detailed buyers order / price sheet before mentioning my wifes X5 with the Takata recall.

The internet manager was nice, but then the games started with the Used car manager.... blah blah blah. yada yada yada ..... No fix for a couple years, I have to eat all the depreciation, I can't sell......

I mentioned the dealers tool kit and that I was only looking for a fair trade on my X5. I explained that they would receive assistance from BMW to help. The claimed that the amount of assistance from BMW was of no help.

They came in at $28-29K for my X5. Then i got the classic, "I might be able to get your $30k". I asked if the number included the Takata trade in benefit and the Internet manager didn't know. Went back to confirm and they said yes.

So with my new payoff of $39,495, I was only around $10k upside. Whoever feels there is no ridiculous diminished value due to the recall doesn't own one of these vehicles.

If you are wondering what my X5 build looks like, run the Vin 0B16092:

Its a MY2013. Highlights include:

Blue/ Black
35i sport activity
Msport
Comfort Seets
Soft Close Doors
Black Grills
Branch new set of 469s wheels (New X5 M-sport Wheels)

Mileage is 52,24x. And yes it was already CPO'd when I bought it. Normal condition for an X5 daily driver. Did not wash /vaccum.

I am just gong to ask my wife to keep driving it. I can't afford to eat the negative equity.

Just throwing my story out there as a data point.


----------



## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

sounds about right for 50k miles with or without airbag issues, and yes I own one I think this is my 17th or 18th bmw I lost count

I paid 24 out the door for my 2012 x5d with 80k miles before the airbag fiasco


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

To my surprise I just got an email from BMWFS with my 2500.00 lease extension certificate. It says I can use for a new purchase, lease, CPO car or towards purchasing my existing car. It included a code for the certificate and it is good until July 31 2017.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

angler said:


> To my surprise I just got an email from BMWFS with my 2500.00 lease extension certificate. It says I can use for a new purchase, lease, CPO car or towards purchasing my existing car. It included a code for the certificate and it is good until July 31 2017.


What year and model do you have under the recall? That sounds like a pretty good offer.


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

2013 135 vert. I knew the 2500 was on the table as that is what the offer was. I am suprised as the original understanding was the car had to be fixed for you to be able to get the 2500.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

How did you get the $2500 certificate? Did you ask local dealer or call BMW Financial?


----------



## angler (Aug 12, 2008)

socal59 said:


> How did you get the $2500 certificate? Did you ask local dealer or call BMW Financial?


They sent it to me without any request on my part...


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Arciga18 said:


> They came in at $28-29K for my X5. Then i got the classic, "I might be able to get your $30k". I asked if the number included the Takata trade in benefit and the Internet manager didn't know. Went back to confirm and they said yes.
> 
> Its a MY2013. Highlights include:
> 
> ...


We received $30K plus the $4k Takata trade assist credit for our '13 X5 35i equipped like yours; it had ~31K miles and X5M 300's on it


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Interesting article in Bloomberg about the effects of the Takata recall on auto dealers, as well as an estimate that it could take three years for replacement parts for announced recalls to be produced: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...les-as-takata-recall-seen-affecting-car-sales

Then, in January 2020, right about the time they should have finally produced replacements for the ones already recalled, there is the very real possibility the NHTSA could add another 50 million to the recall list. Don't forget that all those like-for-like Takata replacements are temporary and will need to be replaced once better airbags become available.


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

socal59 said:


> How did you get the $2500 certificate? Did you ask local dealer or call BMW Financial?


It's a different program. It's one of the re-lease benefits for lessees of affected cars who stay in their cars and extend their lease.

Michael


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> It's a different program. It's one of the re-lease benefits for lessees of affected cars who stay in their cars and extend their lease.
> 
> Michael


Got it :thumbup:


----------



## des16 (Jul 24, 2005)

*timing of replacement*

I have a 2006 E90 which according to the documents I have seen is not in the highest priority group, since the car is from upstate NY. My dealer told me that they would be getting the replacement parts soon and I was at the top of the priority list. Is either possible? Has anyone with an E90 had their car fixed?


----------



## Boomer1976 (Dec 28, 2015)

So I have a 2012 X5 35D that I own outright. I bought out the lease and had it CPO'd. 

Am I to assume there is a $3K credit for a trade in? I have seen nothing from BMW, just what I have seen on here.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Boomer1976 said:


> So I have a 2012 X5 35D that I own outright. I bought out the lease and had it CPO'd.
> 
> Am I to assume there is a $3K credit for a trade in? I have seen nothing from BMW, just what I have seen on here.


The Trade In Benefit available to the dealer from BMWNA on a MY12 and newer X5/X6 is *$4,000*. That way, with the help of that money from BMWNA, the dealer should be able to give you a trade-in allowance that is mutually acceptable. That program expires at the end of June. In order to take advantage of this $4,000 benefit, you and the dealer have to arrive at a mutually acceptable deal *and* your car must have a Takata airbag recall notice *and* the parts are not currently available to fix it. And you must be buying/leasing an in-stock new or CPO BMW.

Here's what it means. It means that the trade-in allowance should be better than what you would get from somebody like CarMax or from trying to trade it in at a non-BMW brand dealership. Does it mean the client advisor will know what you're talking about? Maybe, maybe not. Does it mean the managers at the dealership know what you're talking about? Absolutely!

Good luck! 

P.S. -- Just in case the dealership tries to tell you that they won't get the $4,000 Trade In Benefit since your car was originally leased through BMWFS, tell them they're wrong! Tell them to check with BMWNA on that because this situation has come up before with another Bimmerfester and we had to push his client advisor, who happens to be a Bimmerfest sponsor, to get it right. It that case it took a phone call to BMWNA. Hopefully it won't come to that in your case but you never know. I'm just telling you that if they tell you your car doesn't qualify, tell them this question has already been settled for another member of the forum and you do qualify. 

Hint: See Post #1854 above. That's the Bimmerfester I'm talking about. The one with the Swiss flag in his avatar.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Ilike34 said:


> Is the 2014 active hybrid 3 part of the his recall


Why don't you just enter your VIN: https://vinrcl.safercar.gov/vin/


----------



## pidge1114 (Jun 27, 2016)

So I'm new here, and have been trying to keep up with this 76 page thread.

I'm attempting to buy a low mile CPO 2013 335i Convertible for $31,000 but obviously am in a lockdown where they can't sell it to me until this is fixed. My questions are twofold:

1) Is there still no solid indication when these parts will be hitting dealers? I realize I'm in NY so I'm not a top priority like the southern humid states.
2) The bigger question is should I not even be trying to buy this car? Will its value be much less because of this fiasco?


----------



## pidge1114 (Jun 27, 2016)

The more i read in here, the more concerned I get...


----------



## flaggrad00 (Jun 21, 2011)

pidge1114 said:


> The more i read in here, the more concerned I get...


I would suggest you find a car you like at carmax get the nice warranty with it and enjoy your vert during the summer. With a car as new as you are looking at the chances of airbag hurting you are less than being struck by lightning.


----------



## bananabun (Jun 27, 2016)

My 2014 X1 is affected, and I have been in touch with the dealership since almost 2 weeks now. At first, they offered me a rental and assured me it would be a BMW. I initially refused to drive the rental and insisted on a priority fix instead, but seems like they really don't have replacements. Since then, both the sales and service directors called me to talk about buying my car and getting me into a new one. I don't want that for two reasons - First, I have built significant equity on this car, and second, I really like it and none of the new ones interest me so far. They insisted again, so I said I'd be willing to get into a similarly equipped 335i at no cost on my end. Ever since then, it's been silence on their end. 

My question is - Where do I stand, and what is the likelihood that they'll go out of their way to fix this? Should I just settle for the loaner? My only problem with the loaner is that I pay to park in my apt building and they won't store my X1 while I drive it. Thanks for your input, everybody!


----------



## Caesonia (Mar 16, 2014)

bananabun said:


> My 2014 X1 is affected, and I have been in touch with the dealership since almost 2 weeks now. At first, they offered me a rental and assured me it would be a BMW. I initially refused to drive the rental and insisted on a priority fix instead, but seems like they really don't have replacements. Since then, both the sales and service directors called me to talk about buying my car and getting me into a new one. I don't want that for two reasons - First, I have built significant equity on this car, and second, I really like it and none of the new ones interest me so far. They insisted again, so I said I'd be willing to get into a similarly equipped 335i at no cost on my end. Ever since then, it's been silence on their end.
> 
> My question is - Where do I stand, and what is the likelihood that they'll go out of their way to fix this? Should I just settle for the loaner? My only problem with the loaner is that I pay to park in my apt building and they won't store my X1 while I drive it. Thanks for your input, everybody!


Here is where you stand.

you have a car you love and value, and you are otherwise happy with. You have a marginal risk to your safety. BMW is giving you another car to drive, and its a BMW. Or they are giving good rebates on buying a new one.

That's where you stand.

Personally, I have never seen any manufacturer do as much as I have been seeing with most of the cars affected. As disgusted as I am with corporate decisions, and I think that the auto world is being punished, I have come to the conclusion that some folks are just being a bit unrealistic. I hate airbags as a small woman. I have always been at significant risk of extreme injury by these things. I also know it has been recommended to replace your airbag after 10 years. Most people don't. The same can be said for brake lines in rustbelts, and a variety of other ills cars suffer from once they getoa certain age.

Unless you are in a high risk car, drive it, enjoy it, and wait until they fix it - and they will - or take advantage of the offers on the table. They are best I have ever seen in a recall yet.


----------



## Caesonia (Mar 16, 2014)

flaggrad00 said:


> I would suggest you find a car you like at carmax get the nice warranty with it and enjoy your vert during the summer. With a car as new as you are looking at the chances of airbag hurting you are less than being struck by lightning.


Ditto.


----------



## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

flaggrad00 said:


> I would suggest you find a car you like at carmax get the nice warranty with it and enjoy your vert during the summer. With a car as new as you are looking at the chances of airbag hurting you are less than being struck by lightning.


Is that for driving a convertible in a state with lightning storms with the top down? Or an a full time employee spending 10 hours a day indoors in an area like southern ca were lightning storms are rare? ***128521;


----------



## flaggrad00 (Jun 21, 2011)

socal59 said:


> Is that for driving a convertible in a state with lightning storms with the top down? Or an a full time employee spending 10 hours a day indoors in an area like southern ca were lightning storms are rare? ***128521;


Let me pull out my hyperbole encyclopedia:

Its the later


----------



## pidge1114 (Jun 27, 2016)

well outside of the humorous posts regarding threatening lightning storms, is there really any reason not to just wait it out? If there is a consensus that the price I'd be paying for this CPO model will be high based on any depreciation because of this matter, then that is a real concern. 

If not, then I can just wait it out. I don't NEED the car, and am perfectly happy to keep driving my current one until it's ready for purchase.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

pidge1114 said:


> I'm attempting to buy a low mile CPO 2013 335i Convertible for $31,000 but obviously am in a lockdown where they can't sell it to me until this is fixed. My questions are twofold:
> 
> 1) Is there still no solid indication when these parts will be hitting dealers? I realize I'm in NY so I'm not a top priority like the southern humid states.
> 2) The bigger question is should I not even be trying to buy this car? Will its value be much less because of this fiasco?


If you like the car, keep trying to buy it. 

If the dealership has a signed deal of some sort with you on this car and you put up a deposit, it will be one of the first to be fixed once they receive parts to fix those and the parts will come in from BMW with that VIN specified on them and BMW will have to report that they went into that particular car. So, don't worry about because all three of you -- BMW, the dealer and you -- want to deliver that car to you as soon as humanly possible.



pidge1114 said:


> The more i read in here, the more concerned I get...


Don't sweat it. This is a non-issue and that's the way it is considered by the great majority of BMW owners who are affected by these recall notices. Just think about this for a minute. BMW alone has sent out more than 1.6 million recall notices. Do you seriously think there are an extra 1.6 million rental cars or loaner cars available for them if they all freaked out like some of the people in this thread? Of course not. 



pidge1114 said:


> well outside of the humorous posts regarding threatening lightning storms, is there really any reason not to just wait it out? If there is a consensus that the price I'd be paying for this CPO model will be high based on any depreciation because of this matter, then that is a real concern.


Every time there is a massive recall on a particular brand, the cars affected by the recall show a temporary drop in book value but then everything seems to even out once people forget about it or once everybody is involved. Maybe not everybody, but a lot of people (cars) are involved already -- 28.8 million + 38 million = 66.8 million. That's 193 times the number of new BMWs sold in the U.S. last year. And the NHTSA is threatening to add another 50 million in January 2020. 

Let's ask a BMW owner who was injured by a defective Takata airbag inflator module in a BMW anywhere in the world and see what they have to say about this. Oh, wait... we can't find one because there are none. How about a Mercedes owner who was injured? Oops! Can't find one of those either. How about a Honda owner? Oh, boy, lots of those and most of the ones injured or killed since 2009 have been driving around in cars that were recalled years ago. Not all Takata airbag inflator modules are exactly the same design no matter what the NHTSA does with their recall list. They added a bunch of full-size Chevy pickups to their recall list in spite of the fact that they use an entire different design that can't possibly fail in the same way as the others did because these have a different system of venting gasses during the explosion process.

It is heartbreaking to read about all the people who needlessly died in their Honda that has been on recall since 2009, like that 17-year-old boy in Texas last December who was killed in a very low-impact front-end collision. Or all three of those fatalities in Malaysia. That's why Japan has instituted a government policy where the Japanese safety ministry sends out one of their own employees to knock on your door to demand to know why you haven't had your recalled car's airbag fixed yet if it has been on the recall list for too long without any action on your part.



> If not, then I can just wait it out. I don't NEED the car, and am perfectly happy to keep driving my current one until it's ready for purchase.


That sounds like a plan to me. If you like the car, then wait it out a little longer.

Good luck!


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

Picked up my car. 

A few things I find quite strange...

Since the SM was not around on Saturday when we went to the dealership, he handed off the matter of dealing with us to the Parts Manager. Nice enough guy but it was a bit strange that he balked on the very first question: Who made this airbag. His answer: I don't know. 
I'm no expert on job titles but if yours is "Parts Manager" and you don't know who made a specific part, not to mention one that has been the bane of existence of virtually every car manufacturer out there, you're not doing your job right. He kept excusing himself with "BMW doesn't tell us who makes these parts etc etc" 

Apparently, BMW had sent 2 airbags to this dealership and they arrived on Friday afternoon. They quickly put one in our car and another in a car slated for sale. So he says. 
There's a work order with a part number. I asked him about the X models and their new Takata airbag replacements, he claimed to know nothing about it. 

After some more minutes of attempting to extract more info from this guy, we gave up, picked up our car which had been "detailed and gassed up" and left. Now these two words are a bit of a letdown as well. I'm not sure what passes of for "detailing" at the Fremont BMW but having dust all over the place, floor mats with dirt, mud and dried up pieces of vegetation, and a thick film on the windshield just doesn't qualify as "detailing" in my book. As for "gassing it up" we dropped off the car with nearly a full tank. Granted, they may have added a gallon or so, but that's no "gassing up" 

In another interesting twist, while the car was sitting in the lot, MyCarFax reported a service maintenance. Screenshot attached. 
But when I asked the PM, he knew nothing about it. Since the app shows me the car's repair/service history, I find it strange that it's not showing me the airbag replacement. When I asked the PM, he said that's because the work order is still open and won't be closed until I have picked up the car. Since I did that, on Saturday, and today, Monday, that particular repair isn't showing in the app. Does it take some time for the update to happen?


Anyway, we're happy to have the car back. Feels nice to have the wind in our hair once more. Not to mention the fun of driving it around.

I have the work order at home and will post a picture of it. Maybe someone knows to identify the airbag from the part number that was put in it.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> Since the SM was not around on Saturday when we went to the dealership, he handed off the matter of dealing with us to the Parts Manager. Nice enough guy but it was a bit strange that he balked on the very first question: Who made this airbag. His answer: I don't know.
> I'm no expert on job titles but if yours is "Parts Manager" and you don't know who made a specific part, not to mention one that has been the bane of existence of virtually every car manufacturer out there, you're not doing your job right. He kept excusing himself with "BMW doesn't tell us who makes these parts etc etc"


Maybe he doesn't? I wouldn't know but if you send Michael a PM maybe he can tell you. I know that a few weeks ago Michael posted that the NHTSA authorized the use of like-for-like fresher Takata airbags that will have to be recalled again during the next couple of years once better airbags (meaning without ammonium nitrate propellant) become available. I know that, according to Michael, each part comes in with a specific VIN on it and that is the only car it can be used for. I know that the dealer's R.O. has to confirm that it was put in that vehicle. I know that the cars in the dealer's possession (meaning on his lot) are the ones getting first priority. Actually that's stuff we both know just by reading this thread. 

Ask Michael if there is any way to find out who made your airbag. Maybe he knows a way.



> After some more minutes of attempting to extract more info from this guy, we gave up, picked up our car which had been "detailed and gassed up" and left. Now these two words are a bit of a letdown as well. I'm not sure what passes of for "detailing" at the Fremont BMW but having dust all over the place, floor mats with dirt, mud and dried up pieces of vegetation, and a thick film on the windshield just doesn't qualify as "detailing" in my book. As for "gassing it up" we dropped off the car with nearly a full tank. Granted, they may have added a gallon or so, but that's no "gassing up"


That sounds awful. Complain to AutoNation because they own BMW Mountain View, BMW Fremont and BMW Roseville and they have their own guidelines that their dealers are required to follow. I doubt that they would approve something like that. :thumbdwn:



> I find it strange that it's not showing me the airbag replacement. When I asked the PM, he said that's because the work order is still open and won't be closed until I have picked up the car. Since I did that, on Saturday, and today, Monday, that particular repair isn't showing in the app. Does it take some time for the update to happen?


Yes, sometimes. It depends on who does the processing of those R.O.'s. Maybe it will show up in the next day or so?



> Anyway, we're happy to have the car back.


Good.


----------



## pidge1114 (Jun 27, 2016)

So I guess the real question is am I waiting weeks...or months...to get my new ride.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

pidge1114 said:


> So I guess the real question is am I waiting weeks...or months...to get my new ride.


Hard to say but if I had to guess, I would guess weeks rather than months and fewer rather than more. Maybe sometime in July? Did you ask them lately if they have heard anything?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

bananabun said:


> Where do I stand, and what is the likelihood that they'll go out of their way to fix this?


Zero. Because they don't control that. And neither do you. Your vehicle will be fixed when the parts to fix it come in with your VIN on the box but not before. 



> Should I just settle for the loaner?


No, you should continue driving your own car that you like so much.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Boomer1976 said:


> Thank you very much. I didn't know this existed but this is very helpful!


Did I remember to tell you that the program has an expiration date of June 30, 2016? Just want to make sure you understand that point just in case it doesn't get renewed.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

the part number installed in my car is 32-30-6-884-328. Searching for it on Google revealed a great deal of BMW parts reseller sites and also this: http://m.bmw.oemdtc.com/Recall/RCRIT-16V071-3231.pdf


----------



## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

Ninong said:


> Zero. Because they don't control that. And neither do you. Your vehicle will be fixed when the parts to fix it come in with your VIN on the box but not before.
> 
> No, you should continue driving your own car that you like so much.


Imo if an airbag is available for vehicle like yours and you're in a loaner or rental costing BMWNA a couple grand another...you better believe you will be bumped on priority.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

MRCW said:


> Imo if an airbag is available for vehicle like yours and you're in a loaner or rental costing BMWNA a couple grand another...you better believe you will be bumped on priority.


I am responding to Post #1885. Did you read Post #1885. Go back and read it again. His car is NOT in the possession of the dealership. I have already stated several times that cars in the possession of the dealership are being remedied first. We all know that.


----------



## des16 (Jul 24, 2005)

Ninong said:


> I am responding to Post #1885. Did you read Post #1885. Go back and read it again. His car is NOT in the possession of the dealership. I have already stated several times that cars in the possession of the dealership are being remedied first. We all know that.


Is it the case that priority is being given to people in rental cars? How does that square with the priority being given to certain regions of the country, as well as cars unsold on dealer's lots?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

des16 said:


> Is it the case that priority is being given to people in rental cars? How does that square with the priority being given to certain regions of the country, as well as cars unsold on dealer's lots?


Sorry but I can't answer that question. Try asking someone who works for BMW.


----------



## L-F-C (Jan 31, 2016)

des16 said:


> Is it the case that priority is being given to people in rental cars? How does that square with the priority being given to certain regions of the country, as well as cars unsold on dealer's lots?


It seems that, in our case, a fairly large amount of complaints to BMWNA will get you pushed to the front of the line. Also, weekly or bi-weekly emails to the dealership will also expedite things. Of course our case is a bit different since we bought the car 2 weeks before the recall was announced, so the dealership GM "felt bad"


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

L-F-C said:


> It seems that, in our case, a fairly large amount of complaints to BMWNA will get you pushed to the front of the line. Also, weekly or bi-weekly emails to the dealership will also expedite things. Of course our case is a bit different since we bought the car 2 weeks before the recall was announced, so the dealership GM "felt bad"


Your car shared one important thing in common with the others being remedied first: it was in the possession of the dealership. That includes cars the dealer may own that can't be sold until they are fixed as well as customers' cars that are being held there while the customer is driving substitute transportation paid for by BMW. BMWNA knows those VINs very well because they are costing BMW quite a bit of money every month.

The question *des16* is asking is how does that square with the three different zones established by the NHTSA. I don't know. Apparently there is an exception that allows manufacturers to prioritize cars in their possession first, which is certainly understandable since it wouldn't make sense for the NHTSA to not want to allow exceptions that will help keep the dealers in business.

If only dealers on the Gulf Coast get replacement airbags to fix the cars in their possession, how will the dealers up north stay in business?


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Friday is the first day after the expiration of the "tool kit incentives". Will someone post what the next offering will be if there is one. Thanks in advance, Dave.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

12 Handicap said:


> Friday is the first day after the expiration of the "tool kit incentives". Will someone post what the next offering will be if there is one. Thanks in advance, Dave.


If you have an X1, maybe you should act today or tomorrow? Just in case.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

12 Handicap said:


> Friday is the first day after the expiration of the "tool kit incentives". Will someone post what the next offering will be if there is one. Thanks in advance, Dave.


I sure hope so but Sponsors are avoiding this topic like the plague.

The exception was Michael from Bmw of Seattle, who was super involved and helpful. I think he decided to no longer pursue his sponsor membership.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Arciga18 said:


> I sure hope so but Sponsors are avoiding this topic like the plague.


They're not allowed to discuss it, that's why. It's considered BMW's "proprietary information." That's just the way it is, not an opinion on my part. 



> The exception was Michael from Bmw of Seattle, who was super involved and helpful. I think he decided to no longer pursue his sponsor membership.


See my above answer.


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Ninong said:


> They're not allowed to discuss it, that's why. It's considered BMW's "proprietary information." That's just the way it is, not an opinion on my part.
> 
> See my above answer.


Ah, good to know Ninong. Makes sense since it is a mfr to dealer program.


----------



## Vitacura (Jul 22, 2005)

Arciga18 said:


> I sure hope so but Sponsors are avoiding this topic like the plague.
> 
> The exception was Michael from Bmw of Seattle, who was super involved and helpful. I think he decided to no longer pursue his sponsor membership.


Actually, you are correct. Sadly, Michael did cancel his sponsorship. If you look at his recent posts, that may be an indication as to why, he alluded to it in the ED fee thread.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Ninong said:


> If you have an X1, maybe you should act today or tomorrow? Just in case.


I am taking a crap shoot approach on this. Besides I can't get in before Friday so I have no choice.


----------



## bananabun (Jun 27, 2016)

12 Handicap said:


> I am taking a crap shoot approach on this. Besides I can't get in before Friday so I have no choice.


I took my car in yesterday. GM had a GORGEOUS 340 sitting right outside his office for me. If I was in the market for a new car, I would have jumped on it without thinking twice.

Unfortunately, the way I structured my payments has left me in a position where it's really unwise to trade in or sell at the moment. Good for me that I like my car! Asked to be bumped up on the list for replacements and will figure out the loaner situation soon. Good Luck!


----------



## LINewYork (Oct 28, 2008)

Ninong said:


> If you have a deposit on a particular car that is currently in the dealer's inventory, it will have a certain level of priority and you can rest assured that your dealer will receive the necessary parts to fix it as soon as possible. In fact, they should arrive dedicated to that particular car and must be used on that particular car. Your dealer would notify you as soon as it is ready to be picked up by you.
> 
> In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to send your client advisor an email asking him/her to please update you on its current status.
> 
> Good luck!


Heard back from my dealer today. He told me replacement parts for 1 & 3 series vehicles have started showing up at the dealership (in NC).

They are confident that the inflator for my E88 will be competed sometime during July.

I have had a deposit on a 128i since March. Looks like my wait will be over soon.

As information, I did not ask if the inflator was a permanent or temporary fix.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

LINewYork said:


> Heard back from my dealer today. He told me replacement parts for 1 & 3 series vehicles have started showing up at the dealership (in NC).
> 
> They are confident that the inflator for my E88 will be competed sometime during July.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that feedback. That is exactly what I figured was going on. Even if they have to put in a Takata like-for-like replacement, at least it's a fresher version than the one they are removing and it's something authorized by the NHTSA. If that happens, it will have to be recalled again once a better airbag (meaning without ammonium nitrate propellant) becomes available.

Is that something BMW likes doing? Of course not. But it's something they may have to do in some cases. Does BMW ever expect to be reimbursed for all this expense by Takata? Haha! No chance of that ever happening. Those bums are costing the automotive industry tens of billions of dollars thanks to their criminal behavior! I wish there was some way to put all of them in prison for a long time.


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

This news is not good for Honda and Acura owners: http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/30/autos/takata-honda-airbag-warning/


----------



## LINewYork (Oct 28, 2008)

Ninong said:


> Thanks for that feedback. That is exactly what I figured was going on. Even if they have to put in a Takata like-for-like replacement, at least it's a fresher version than the one they are removing and it's something authorized by the NHTSA. If that happens, it will have to be recalled again once a better airbag (meaning without ammonium nitrate propellant) becomes available.
> 
> Is that something BMW likes doing? Of course not. But it's something they may have to do in some cases. Does BMW ever expect to be reimbursed for all this expense by Takata? Haha! No chance of that ever happening. Those bums are costing the automotive industry tens of billions of dollars thanks to their criminal behavior! I wish there was some way to put all of them in prison for a long time.


Well I received another update from my dealer. Parts are in and I will be picking the car up tomorrow!!

As info, the 2013 128i was located in priority group 2 for the past three years.

Now I need some opinions on what a fair price will be for the car. When I put a deposit on the car 3 1/2 months ago the price was in the mid 20k range.

So now the car has lost 3 1/2 months of maintenance & warranty. Plus BMWNA has given the dealer assistance for holding the car in inventory.

The problem is that the dealer knows I am not going to walk away from the deal. He has me by the balls.

So how much do you think I can get the dealer to take off the list price?

I am hoping to get $2000 - $3000 off the March 2016 price.

Others issues are I am returning a 2013 335i lease (one month pull ahead). No damage or issues with the lease return.

Would appreciate any advice on the negotiation.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

LINewYork said:


> Well I received another update from my dealer. Parts are in and I will be picking the car up tomorrow!!
> 
> As info, the 2013 128i was located in priority group 2 for the past three years.
> 
> ...


All of your questions are interesting ones and I can tell from your comments that you understand that this is going to be something between you and the dealership to determine (except for maybe the question of the "lost 3 1/2 months of maintenance & warranty."

As you already seem to understand, the dealership knows that you really want this car so now you have to delicately negotiate in spite of them knowing that and them knowing that you know they know that. In other words, you have your work cut out for you. Start by politely asked them what adjustment to the selling price they think would be appropriate under the circumstances. Always ask the other guy to go first. Remember that point. If you're talking to the client advisor and he seems to think an adjustment to the price is not possible, then simply tell him you think it is and he should convey that message to his boss.

It's just basic negotiating, except that you know that they know you really want the car. Don't jump up and down and threaten to walk out because they won't believe you and you will just make things worse. Play the good guy and ask them how much of a reduction they think you're entitled to after having to wait that long for it and knowing that both of you know cars don't go up in value because they're not bottles of fine wine. If your client advisor is clueless, you have to get above him to the next guy up the chain. You can do it. 

As far as the "lost 3 1/2 months of maintenance & warranty" is concerned. Ask them to ask BMW of North America to extend your free maintenance and warranty by the exact number of days from the date you would have taken delivery had they allowed it until the date you actually take delivery. They can give you an extension if you push them for it.

When the other guy knows you really want the car, make him go first with an offer after you politely state your case for why you think you're entitled to some concession. The trick is to make them emphasize with you. Then you politely counter whatever they offer you. You have to make them feel sorry for you. You need to put them in your shoes and not piss them off. It's not all that hard to do because, believe it or not, most people who work for dealerships are just regular guys like you and understand where you're coming from. 

P.S. -- You have to politely let them know that you know that the assistance they received from BMWNA on this car was twofold: monthly storage and monthly depreciation. Therefore, they have received depreciation compensation on this car during the time they held it waiting for parts to fix it. So yes, you think you're entitled to an adjustment. Let them know this without being confrontational about it. If they ask how you know this, just tell them you're grateful to Al Gore for inventing the Internet. LOL


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Is there any news of the replacement programs given the original ones have expired 6/30? Or are the original ones extended beyond 6/30?


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

namelessman said:


> Is there any news of the replacement programs given the original ones have expired 6/30? Or are the original ones extended beyond 6/30?


I'm sending an email to the gm. Hopefully he can at least confirm if there is a new program or an extension. Don't know what to expect.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Is there any news of the replacement programs given the original ones have expired 6/30? Or are the original ones extended beyond 6/30?





Arciga18 said:


> I'm sending an email to the gm. Hopefully he can at least confirm if there is a new program or an extension. Don't know what to expect.


I already asked someone about this a couple of days ago. The program expired for the X1, X5 and X6 on June 30 as scheduled. It was continued on the 1-series, 3-series and X3 through August 1. Yes, the person I talked to is in a position to know.



P.S. -- Did you see my response on June 29: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9738804&postcount=1906


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

Ninong I saw your messages but didn't want to be the guy spreading news on the forums . I'll be glad if they fix my x5 soon.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Arciga18 said:


> Ninong I saw your messages but didn't want to be the guy spreading news on the forums . I'll be glad if they fix my x5 soon.


I keep forgetting who has what. Right now all you're showing is the 2009 3-series. I forgot about your X5.


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

Ninong , Do you think a letter to BMW NA would do any good for me ? I just couldn't do anything before now , and they dropped me off the list.


----------



## joelk01 (Sep 6, 2007)

This may seem obvious, but is BMW and other manufacturers also prohibited from selling new cars with recalls? There are a lot of recent, if not new, cars on the list of affected vehicles. Makes me wonder if the manufacturers were aware of issues.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

12 Handicap said:


> Ninong , Do you think a letter to BMW NA would do any good for me ? I just couldn't do anything before now , and they dropped me off the list.


Unfortunately, no. That wouldn't make any difference. The parts to repair your car are now available or will be available within a matter of days, not several weeks or months. Whether it is a like-for-like replacement that will have to be replaced within the next couple of years doesn't matter as along as the NHTSA authorized it. BMW has to abide by their rules.

However, once your X1 is fixed, it can be sold by the dealership and won't have to be held in inventory indefinitely waiting for parts to fix it. The biggest hit to the value of any of those cars with outstanding recalls was that they couldn't be sold. Once they're fixed, that's no longer a concern.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

joelk01 said:


> ...*are BMW and other manufacturers also prohibited from selling new cars with recalls?*


Yes, it is illegal for BMW and the other new car manufacturers to sell a new car with an unrepaired safety recall on it. BMW, and most other new car manufacturers, will not sell a used car with an open unrepaired safety recall on it. The law against selling new cars with unrepaired safety recalls applies to new car manufacturers and their franchised dealers. It does not extend to used car dealers but that may soon change. It also does not extend to used cars, but that may soon change. It did not extend to rental car companies but I believe that was recently changed and it is now illegal to rent a car with an open safety recall.

Once the new car manufacturer issues a safety recall notice on a car, the dealers are automatically prohibited by law from selling that car. If the notice applies to a used car, the manufacturers are able to order their dealers to not sell that car if it is one that the manufacturer and the dealer have a CPO agreement on. In other words, if the car is a late model (one, two or three years old for example) that the manufacturer would normally require the dealership to CPO, then the manufacturer's order can cover that one because of a different ruling issued by the FTC to the effect that it would be fraudulent and misleading advertising to claim that your CPO'd used cars have been subjected to a rigorous reconditioning and safety inspection if you were to offer it for sale with an unrepaired safety defect. The FTC can and will hit you with a big fine for that. Just ask GM and two large national dealer chains about that.

BMW, like most other new car manufacturers, has ordered their dealers to not sell any used cars in their inventory if there is an unrepaired recall on them. As far as I know, no BMW dealers have sold any unrepaired Takata airbag cars from one of their lots. However, one large national chain admitted that they were running "all brands" of trade-ins with open Takata airbag recalls (as well as VW dieselgate recalls) through the wholesale auction with a notice on the windshield that the buyer assumes all risk for the unrepaired recall.

Because the law does not extend to used car dealers, CarMax can get away with selling a late model used car with an unrepaired safety defect. In fact, CarMax advises prospective buyers that they should register their car with the manufacturer to be informed of any safety recalls. CarMax claims that is best left to the customer. (Obviously a self-serving approach on their part.) They are being sued for that and it was because of CarMax's selling of cars with unrepaired Takata airbags that two Democratic senators tried to pass a bill that would amend the law to include used cars and used car dealers, as well as raise the maximum fine on manufacturers from $25 million to $300 million. Unfortunately for consumers, the party in control of both houses of Congress is opposed to "new government regulations."

If you have a BMW with an open Takata airbag recall and you own that car, you can sell it yourself, including to CarMax. You can do that even if you have an open loan on it because you are the registered owner of the car. You cannot do that if it is a leased car because BMWFS owns the car and they will refuse to sell it to anybody. In other words, they will refuse to accept a payoff on it from anybody if it has an unrepaired airbag.


----------



## zetabetatau (Dec 9, 2009)

Ninong said:


> You cannot do that if it is a leased car because BMWFS owns the car and they will refuse to sell it to anybody. In other words, they will refuse to accept a payoff on it from anybody if it has an unrepaired airbag.


So now that the re-lease option has expired on an X6 (was 61 days out!), if they don't fix it in 60 days, and the lessee wants to buy it at lease end, then what.

Isn't it in the lease contract that the Lessee has the RIGHT to purchase the car at lease end?


----------



## LINewYork (Oct 28, 2008)

Ninong said:


> All of your questions are interesting ones and I can tell from your comments that you understand that this is going to be something between you and the dealership to determine (except for maybe the question of the "lost 3 1/2 months of maintenance & warranty."
> 
> As you already seem to understand, the dealership knows that you really want this car so now you have to delicately negotiate in spite of them knowing that and them knowing that you know they know that. In other words, you have your work cut out for you. Start by politely asked them what adjustment to the selling price they think would be appropriate under the circumstances. Always ask the other guy to go first. Remember that point. If you're talking to the client advisor and he seems to think an adjustment to the price is not possible, then simply tell him you think it is and he should convey that message to his boss.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions, they worked. Picked up my car today, the dealer initially offered me a $200 discount off the original March 2016 price. After politely stating my case I received a $2000 reduction based on the 3 1/2 month wait.

So in the end I picked up a 2013 128 vert - m sport, prem, cold weather, 6 mt, xenons, rear parking assist, auto high beams, cpo with 21,000 miles for $24,300.

I think it was a fair deal and worth the wait.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Ninong said:


> Unfortunately, no. That wouldn't make any difference. The parts to repair your car are now available or will be available within a matter of days, not several weeks or months. Whether it is a like-for-like replacement that will have to be replaced within the next couple of years doesn't matter as along as the NHTSA authorized it. BMW has to abide by their rules.
> 
> However, once your X1 is fixed, it can be sold by the dealership and won't have to be held in inventory indefinitely waiting for parts to fix it. The biggest hit to the value of any of those cars with outstanding recalls was that they couldn't be sold. Once they're fixed, that's no longer a concern.





zetabetatau said:


> So now that the re-lease option has expired on an X6 (was 61 days out!), if they don't fix it in 60 days, and the lessee wants to buy it at lease end, then what.
> 
> Isn't it in the lease contract that the Lessee has the RIGHT to purchase the car at lease end?


Please read the response I gave to *12 Handicap* early today when he asked about his X1. It applies to the X1, X5 and X6 that were allowed to expire on June 30 as previously scheduled. The situation you describe will not arise.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

LINewYork said:


> *Thanks for the suggestions, they worked*. Picked up my car today, the *dealer initially offered me a $200 discount off the original March 2016 price. After politely stating my case I received a $2000 reduction based on the 3 1/2 month wait.*
> 
> So in the end I picked up a 2013 128 vert - m sport, prem, cold weather, 6 mt, xenons, rear parking assist, auto high beams, cpo with 21,000 miles for $24,300.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback and I'm glad my suggestions proved helpful. I hope others who read that will be inspired to follow that approach. The most important point was that the dealer knew you really wanted the car anyway, so there was no sense being confrontational about it, just politely explain why you think you deserve a discount. That's the only approach that will work when both you and the salesman know you're going to take the car regardless. It's not like you're going to walk out the door on them if they don't meet your demands, because you're not and they know you're not.

Congrats! You won!


----------



## 12 Handicap (Nov 1, 2015)

So thats it?


----------



## Arciga18 (Mar 3, 2012)

12 Handicap said:


> So thats it?


I tried making a move on June 30th, but the dealer was not working with me at all on the trade value. Too much negative equity. Same story from the couple dealers... can't sell, no parts, blah blah blah.

Ninong posted that parts should be available soon for some very specific models so it is only a matter of time for a fix. :thumbup:

I'll have to follow the early advice and just keep driving the X5. Hopefully, I can catch up on the loan by the time the CPO expires in a couple years.

My case is specific to a 2013 X5. Maybe you have a different model and can still try to swing a deal in July.


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

BMW is shipping some airbags!

*SI B65 11 15 15V-318 Driver Front Air Bag Module (Final Repair)*

BMW NA has begun receiving a very limited quantity of Driver Front Air Bag Modules. These parts will be shipped out for customers in loaners and rentals for E46, E39 and E53 vehicles model year 2002-2006 mentioned in SI B65 11 15 (SIB posted soon). The orders have been placed by VIN and should arrive at dealerships this week. The airbags are assigned to specific VINs by BMW NA so don't bother calling your dealer to get one if they haven't called you.

Beginning early August, the amount of parts will increase in inventory. A customer mailing will be sent at this time to customers residing in High Absolute Humidity (HAH) areas such as Alabama, California, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Puerto Rico, Samoa, Texas, US Virgin Islands, Saipan and South Carolina as per the NHTSA requirements.


----------



## asus389 (May 20, 2009)

tim330i said:


> BMW is shipping some airbags!
> 
> *SI B65 11 15 15V-318 Driver Front Air Bag Module (Final Repair)*
> 
> ...


So what about those of us with effected cars that aren't in those territories? Are we still under a stop sale? Can't buy/sell them? They don't even mention the e90, so those are all still under the stop sale?


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

asus389 said:


> So what about those of us with effected cars that aren't in those territories? Are we still under a stop sale? Can't buy/sell them? They don't even mention the e90, so those are all still under the stop sale?


This release of "final replacement parts" is specific to the 2015 Recall Campaign, not the 2016 Big Recall.

Vehicles under the 2016 Recall are being issued "like for like," gas generator replacements with the distribution priority on the NHTSA "zones" for high humidity and temperature variation.

Michael


----------



## asus389 (May 20, 2009)

MJBrown62 said:


> This release of "final replacement parts" is specific to the 2015 Recall Campaign, not the 2016 Big Recall.
> 
> Vehicles under the 2016 Recall are being issued "like for like," gas generator replacements with the distribution priority on the NHTSA "zones" for high humidity and temperature variation.
> 
> Michael


OK so does the "like for like" replacement allow dealers to sell/trade effected cars that are being held in inventory?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

asus389 said:


> OK so does the "like for like" replacement allow dealers to sell/trade effected cars that are being held in inventory?


They are good to go. In other words, the like-for-like replacement, approved by the NHTSA, removes them from the NHTSA recall list. They will be recalled again once better airbags without an ammonium nitrate propellant become available, probably within the next couple of years.


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ninong said:


> They are good to go. In other words, the like-for-like replacement, approved by the NHTSA, removes them from the NHTSA recall list. They will be recalled again once better airbags without an ammonium nitrate propellant become available, probably within the next couple of years.


Yep, and most dealers are getting replacements on held inventory pretty quickly. We've moved through most of our X5 and X1 inventory, and are now getting gas generators for 3-series vehicles.


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

FYI - as of today, 7-12, BMW Customer Relations is saying this, at least to this Maryland resident: 
E46 Airbags are expected by the end of the summer. Wait for a letter. As for E92 airbags (lucky me I have 2 recalled cars), they do not know when the replacement airbags will be available. Wait for a letter. 
Wait. Wait. Wait.


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

FYI - as of today, 7-12, BMW Customer Relations is saying this, at least to this Maryland resident: 
E46 Airbags are expected by the end of the summer. Wait for a letter. As for E92 airbags (lucky me I have 2 recalled cars), they do not know when the replacement airbags will be available. Wait for a letter. 
Wait. Wait. Wait.


----------



## bananabun (Jun 27, 2016)

Got my replacement installed yesterday. Dealer did try to move me into a new car on June 29th, but too much negative equity so I wouldn't have done it in spite of an amazing deal on a new 340. Asked to be bumped up on the list for a replacement and agreed to not get a loaner in the meantime. Really impressed with BMW and my dealer!


----------



## Papillo (Feb 11, 2008)

jhm5 said:


> FYI - as of today, 7-12, BMW Customer Relations is saying this, at least to this Maryland resident:
> E46 Airbags are expected by the end of the summer. Wait for a letter. *As for E92 airbags (lucky me I have 2 recalled cars), they do not know when the replacement airbags will be available. * Wait for a letter.
> Wait. Wait. Wait.


Thanks for the update. I'm in MD but my vehicle was in Florida for the first 3 years of its life. Who knows what category ill fall under. I guess some of us will be in loaners for up to a year. They cant take all the time they need. I sure ain't complaining.


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

jhm5 said:


> FYI - as of today, 7-12, BMW Customer Relations is saying this, at least to this Maryland resident:
> E46 Airbags are expected by the end of the summer. Wait for a letter. As for E92 airbags (lucky me I have 2 recalled cars), they do not know when the replacement airbags will be available. Wait for a letter.
> Wait. Wait. Wait.


Drive carefully on your road trip, John,:thumbup:


----------



## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

Is it true that as of July 1st, no more 12 months lease extension offer?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20194345&postcount=364

If that is true, I am glad that I signup that option back in May and also received an email for that $2500 certificate couple weeks ago...


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jhm5 said:


> FYI - as of today, 7-12, BMW Customer Relations is saying this, at least to this Maryland resident:
> E46 Airbags are expected by the end of the summer. Wait for a letter. As for E92 airbags (lucky me I have 2 recalled cars), they do not know when the replacement airbags will be available. Wait for a letter.
> Wait. Wait. Wait.


I don't suppose you're interested in trading in either of those cars any time soon, right? Because if you are, be aware that the previous program that was scheduled to run from March 23 - June 30 did actually expire on June 30 for X1, X5 and X6 models but it was extended until August 1 for 1-series, 3-series and X3 models as far as Lease Termination and Trade-In Benefit are concerned. In other words, if you have an affected vehicle that is MY11 and older, the $2,000 Trade-In Benefit still applies until August 1. I'm sure neither of yours are on open leases, right? Something to keep in mind in case you were considering trading in anything.

The program was always scheduled to end on June 30 and it did for the X1, X5 and X6 but not for the 1-series, 3-series and X3 models. I have no clue what the answer is right now as far as availability of substitute transportation while waiting for the replacement airbag. That may have been discontinued but you would have to check that on your own.

Some of the guys who recently received their replacement airbag should check their VIN on the official NHTSA website to see if it was removed yet. https://vinrcl.safercar.gov/vin/

Yes, it is a matter of wait, wait, and wait some more. Too many recalled airbags and not enough production capacity to manufacture replacement parts. And BMW doesn't have much control over what happens either. And your dealer has no control at all.


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

Ninong said:


> I don't suppose you're interested in trading in either of those cars any time soon, right? Because if you are, be aware that the previous program that was scheduled to run from March 23 - June 30 did actually expire on June 30 for X1, X5 and X6 models but it was extended until August 1 for 1-series, 3-series and X3 models as far as Lease Termination and Trade-In Benefit are concerned.


Thanks, Ninong, for the tip on the benefit being extended, but you are correct, I do not plan on trading either of these cars this year and they're owned, not leased. I am driving the cars, but I don't want to be the last person on the list to get these airbags replaced. The passenger bag was replaced on the E46 Sport Wagon 3 years ago.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jhm5 said:


> I am driving the cars, but I don't want to be the last person on the list to get these airbags replaced. The passenger bag was replaced on the E46 Sport Wagon 3 years ago.


Let's see who has the least control over when your airbags get fixed. I will start with the person with no control at all and then gradually move up the line, okay?

1. You -- no control at all.
2. Dealer -- has no control and doesn't know much more than you do.
3. BMW -- has to abide by the guidelines handed down by the NHTSA.
4. NHTSA -- they're the ones who decide which manufacturers will get replacement parts first and which vehicles will have priority over others based on the factors they consider most important.


----------



## ZoomVT (May 30, 2008)

Ninong said:


> 4. NHTSA -- they're the ones who decide which manufacturers will get replacement parts first and which vehicles will have priority over others based on the factors they consider most important.


I didnt know this. That sounds terrible, why not let the open market work itself? A premium brand like BMW may be willing to spend more $ and push to be first. All carmakers should - an increased willingness to pay for it would drive the market mechanics to get this solved. I know there is no manufacturing capacity so there are some restrictions to market power - but why should the NHTSA dictate who gets it first?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ZoomVT said:


> ...why should the NHTSA dictate who gets it first?


Because that's the law. The Department of Transportation, of which the NHTSA is a small part, is in charge of highway safety in this country. The specific law that covers this goes back to around 2000 or 2001. You could google it if you want. Laws are passed by our elected officials in Congress and signed by the President, so we're the one who did this because they're only doing what we want them to do, right?


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

ZoomVT said:


> I didnt know this. That sounds terrible, why not let the open market work itself? A premium brand like BMW may be willing to spend more $ and push to be first. All carmakers should - an increased willingness to pay for it would drive the market mechanics to get this solved. I know there is no manufacturing capacity so there are some restrictions to market power - but why should the NHTSA dictate who gets it first?


The practical answer is that with millions of affected cars, NHTSA has to prioritize the vehicles, regardless of make, based on the risk level to the consumer. This is a case which market influence doesn't best serve the public.

They want to get the replacement gas generators in the highest risk cars first, before they create shrapnel.

Michael


----------



## ZoomVT (May 30, 2008)

Understand and agree with the sentiment. If I understand correctly, this should be based on vehicle age and location/climate factors. 

Is that how it's being managed? It appeared that certain brands were getting access just based on volume and not risk. I could very wrong.

Ninong, just questioning the approach. It may just be a matter of control. But ultimately, nhtsa is picking winners and losers (by the speed and priority given) and I'd prefer they didn't. 

I'm all for the greater good, and if it's truly based just on risk due to climate and age then great. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

ZoomVT said:


> Understand and agree with the sentiment. If I understand correctly, this should be based on vehicle age and location/climate factors.
> 
> Is that how it's being managed? It appeared that certain brands were getting access just based on volume and not risk. I could very wrong.
> 
> ...


I know there are multiple threads with now thousands of posts. But it is probably worth looking through them.

Here's an outline of the current replacement program:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9679994&postcount=72

The main reason that other manufacturers had replacements before BMW is they made the choice to use these interim gas generator replacements. BMW had a long delay as they had hoped to develop and have a permanent replacement by the end of August. Knowing that it wasn't going to happen, they started using the interim replacements as well.

Michael


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ZoomVT said:


> Ninong, just questioning the approach. It may just be a matter of control. But ultimately, nhtsa is picking winners and losers (by the speed and priority given) and I'd prefer they didn't.
> 
> I'm all for the greater good, and if it's truly based just on risk due to climate and age then great.


Yes, I know you're just questioning the approach because you probably aren't familiar with the results of the NHTSA's independent investigation that showed that the exact same model Takata inflator module that has a risk of propellant degradation beginning after 6-8 years when the vehicle is located in a Gulf Coast area doesn't begin to degrade until after 20-25 years in more northerly states or Canada. That's why Transport Canada said they have no intention of issuing any sort of warning or recall on Takata airbags because they are not aware of any reports of problems with them in Canada. However, BMW and probably most other major manufacturers, has been recalling Canadian vehicles with the same model Takata inflator if it is on the NHTSA's official recall list in the U.S. I believe they are still doing that but in the appropriate priority status.

We discussed that report in detail in this thread months ago if you want to go back in the thread. It would be easier to just read it on the NHTSA's official website where it would be easier to find.

Remember the NHTSA itself goes back to 1970 but the law that is most important to us is the one requiring the auto manufacturers and the auto parts manufacturers to report safety defects and their own voluntary recall actions to the NHTSA was implemented in November 2000. That's the law that resulted in maximum fines against Takata, Honda and Toyota for failure to report safety defects in Takata airbags that resulted in serious injuries or deaths (Toyota hasn't had any deaths but they have had Takata airbag failures resulting in serious injusries going back for the past 9 years). If those guys had complied with U.S. law, this problem would have been caught more than ten years ago. That 2000 law was The TREAD Act: http://www.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa/announce/testimony/tread.html Honda announced last year that they were shocked to learn that their employees had failed to comply with that law and they promised to conduct a vigorous internal investigation to find those responsible.

BMW is not aware of any Takata airbag failures related to this problem in any of their vehicles anywhere in the world over the past 10 years. They are aware of one Takata airbag with a failed propellant module but that was more than 10 years ago, it did not result in injuries and it was determined to have been caused by operator error -- overfilling of the propellant chamber with too many wafers.

The cars with the highest risk of Takata airbag failure are older model Hondas, specifically 2000-2002 models. That model inflator module was not used in any BMWs. In fact, it wasn't used in later Honda models either. Those cars should not be operated unless the airbag has been repaired or replaced. It is amazing that people are being killed still in those cars because they were never brought in for repair. Virtually all of the deaths in Hondas since 2009 have been in cars that were placed on recall in 2009.

Even that 17-year-old boy in Texas who was killed in a very low speed front collision in December 2015 was driving a car that has had more than one recall notice sent out. All three of the deaths in Hondas in Malaysia happened in cars that have been on recall for years. That lady who was killed in an older model Honda she rented from a low-cost rental company died in a car that was on recall. Until a couple of months ago it was legal in this country for a rental car company to rent you a car with an unrepaired safety recall. It is still legal for CarMax to sell you a car with an unrepaired Takata airbag because the law doesn't cover used cars or used car dealers.

Anyway, BMW is not in control of this process, the NHTSA is. They're supposed to be steering replacements to the highest risk cars first. Obviously BMW is allowed to use some of the replacements they receive to repair cars in their possession first. The same goes for the other manufacturers. That's allowed for obvious reasons.

_


----------



## mechwartz431 (Jul 16, 2016)

*Re-Lease and $2500 loyalty expired?*

I am leasing a 2013 335i cabrio, M sport, 6MT with the airbag recall. lease ends 11/15/16. I had always planned on purchasing at lease end, but the $40,240 residual ( 63% of $64,xxx.00) was a bit steep and over market value. Car has 19K miles and I cannot get another similar ( 4 series vert) with manual trans as no longer offer 6MT in the convertible. I was looking forward to the re-lease at $150 month less and $2500 loyalty offer and lower residual. I called BMW-FS, and I'm told that offer is no longer available. So now I am stuck with a car with an airbag that cannot be fixed, and no special offers? Any ideas here. I want to buy it, but cant, and now no program to allow re-lease? Help.. Thanks


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mechwartz431 said:


> I am leasing a 2013 335i cabrio, M sport, 6MT with the airbag recall. lease ends 11/15/16. I had always planned on purchasing at lease end, but the $40,240 residual ( 63% of $64,xxx.00) was a bit steep and over market value. Car has 19K miles and I cannot get another similar ( 4 series vert) with manual trans as no longer offer 6MT in the convertible. I was looking forward to the re-lease at $150 month less and $2500 loyalty offer and lower residual. I called BMW-FS, and I'm told that offer is no longer available. So now I am stuck with a car with an airbag that cannot be fixed, and no special offers? Any ideas here. I want to buy it, but cant, and now no program to allow re-lease? Help.. Thanks


Your car's airbag will be fixed before your lease expires in November. If it is not fixed by the time your lease expires and you inform the dealership of your wish to purchase the vehicle instead of turning it in, he will have to discuss it with BMWFS to come up with a way for you to continue driving the car until such time as it is fixed and they can offer you a true market-based price for you to purchase it, but that's not going to happen because it will be fixed before then. If it's not fixed by November 1, then please open a new thread with that information because I would really like to know that. I'm willing to bet you that an airbag for that car will come in before the lease expires regardless of whether you want to keep it or it's going back to BMWFS. It's going to get fixed.

Remember that at the end of the lease, you do not have to deal with just the dealer who leased you this car in the first place. You can shop dealers just as you would if you were looking for a new car. In this case you're looking for the dealer who will give you the best selling price on your current leased car that you want to keep. All of the dealers will get the same special dealers-only payoff from BMWFS but that doesn't mean that they will all give you exactly the same selling price. Remember to have them CPO the car and include that in their calculations.

If you like the offer your original dealer gives you, then go for it. If you think you can do better, then shop around a little. Just don't wait until the day before your lease expires to do all of this. Give yourself at least 10 days in case you need to look around before accepting your dealer's offer.


----------



## mechwartz431 (Jul 16, 2016)

Thanks for the quick response, Ninong. I leased from a dealer in Northern VA, though I live in Baltimore, MD. I had to travel there to find a 335i convertible with M sport and 6MT. So I guess I'll wait till after my last payment made, (30 days prior to lease end date November 2016) and check with the 3 local dealers in my area, and also from the leasing dealer (though its an over an hour away). Do I need to bring the car down to get pricing, or can this be done over the phone, at least the preliminary negotiating? I do want it CPO'd. Again residual is $40,000. I am thinking $33,000-$34,000 will be around market value in November. In Maryland, you pay for sales tax on entire cap cost up front in the lease, so I hope not to pay tax again. I know if you purchase directly from BMW leasing, no "extra tax". Not 100% sure if go through dealer. I hate to pay tax again! At 6% that can be about $2,000. I previously bought two cars off lease, and as I paid the entire taxes up front, just paid the residual. Thank for your help.


----------



## albert serra (May 30, 2013)

My 2014 X6 is caught up in the takata recall. 3 months ago my dealer called and said i was to bring my car to the dealer as it is subject to the recall. they have now had my car for 3 months and they do not return my calls. I did however get a letter stating that they will install a air bag that will have to be replaced. They called this an interim repair. What doe this mean? However they did give me a loaner car and i have had it for the 3 month period. Does anyone know anything about this? i would like my car back asap!


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

albert serra said:


> My 2014 X6 is caught up in the takata recall. 3 months ago my dealer called and said i was to bring my car to the dealer as it is subject to the recall. they have now had my car for 3 months and they do not return my calls. I did however get a letter stating that they will install a air bag that will have to be replaced. They called this an interim repair. What doe this mean? However they did give me a loaner car and i have had it for the 3 month period. Does anyone know anything about this? i would like my car back asap!


Short answer as the full answer is detailed in multiple posts:

When the initial recall was announced, BMW sought to extend the replacement requirement to August 2016 so it could develop its own airbag system
In April they announced programs to help people get out of their recall-affected cars. One of those was a loaner vehicle.
Since that time, BMW was unable to successfully test its own proprietary airbag.
The research determined the affect of heat and humidity on the inflator/gas generator, and the passage of time, provided the greatest risk of potential explosion.
In order to meet the August start date, they had to adopt the process other manufacturers were using: like-for-like replacement inflators.
Given those two factors of an August commencement date and the lack of a viable system replacement, BMW started replacing the old gas generator with new ones, to start the risk clock over. Eventually the system will need to be replaced.
Priority is based on the age of the vehicle and how long it was in high risk areas.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Let me add two more points to Michael's post: (1) BMW is not required by the law to provide you with substitute transportation. (2) This like-for-like replacement is something that is approved by the NHTSA. You might even say it is encouraged. BMW doesn't like this idea at all but they don't have much choice. They will have to bring your car back in, probably within the next two years, once a better airbag becomes available.

Hey, don't forget one point. You don't control this. The dealership doesn't control it either. The only people who make the rules and establish the priority for who gets these scarce airbags as they become available is the NHTSA. Then BMW of North America tries to comply with the rules handed down to them by the NHTSA.

Nobody has ever been injured in a BMW due to a failed Takata airbag inflator. No BMWs ever used the same Takata airbag inflator modules as those installed in 2000-2003 Hondas and a few other makes that are causing most of the problems.

All of the fatalities have been in Hondas except for one 2006 Ford pickup that ran into a cow in South Carolina.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

One more point, *Albert*, I see that you are located in Florida. You're at the top of the list as far as priority is concerned. Florida, Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. are at the very top of the list because the ammonium nitrate propellant that is the fundamental cause of this issue begins to degrade after only 6-8 years in those areas compared to more than 20-25 years in more northerly climates.

No one is getting more attention that you!


----------



## mechwartz431 (Jul 16, 2016)

Doesn't matter. I think they mainly make sure all works and prob pull wholesale off Mannheim or similar guide. I've sold 3 cars to them. Prob give $500 more than dealer.


----------



## vetaldj (Feb 5, 2011)

Regarding CarMax - it all depends. I had a 2008 VW Rabbit (golf) and I was selling it for 10K (Charlotte, NC), did not get even single call. Dealer (same as few other places) offered 8K as it has roof damaged during it's voyage to Hawaii.

CarMax gave me 11K for the car (freshly washed and detailed) despite on damage and sold it in a week for $14.5K. It looks like they had a buyer looking for similar car or something already. 

Funny part here is the fact that I bought it from the dealer 4 years prior to that moment (it was 1 year old trade in) For the same $14.5K


----------



## vetaldj (Feb 5, 2011)

Double post. Sorry


----------



## Wagongirl1975 (May 30, 2017)

I'm seeing dealers around here selling them with open recalls "as is". Anyone else seeing this. Thoughts?


----------



## Shon528 (Oct 3, 2003)

Wagongirl1975 said:


> I'm seeing dealers around here selling them with open recalls "as is". Anyone else seeing this. Thoughts?


Define "dealer". BMW dealer or a used car dealer (Carmax, etc)? BMW dealers can not sell them but others can. They then refer you to the BMW dealer to have any recalls taken care of.


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

Apparently buyer beware applies to this massive airbag recall. I found a document from the National Automobile Dealers Association interpreting the law as prohibiting the sale of new vehicles subject to a stop sales order issued by NHTSA, however there is no such law regarding used vehicles. However, a manufacturer may tell its franchised dealers not to sell such vehicles and I believe BMW NA has issued such an order to its dealers, at least early on in this recall. The NADA document also points out some state laws may affect sale of a vehicle with an open recall. If you are shopping for a used vehicle and are concerned about open recalls I would carefully check the VIN against the NHTSA database at safercar.gov


----------



## Wagongirl1975 (May 30, 2017)

BMW dealer. It wasn't until I asked pointedly about the recall that the sale was halted. If I hadn't asked they would have proceeded with the sale I believe.


----------



## Shon528 (Oct 3, 2003)

Wagongirl1975 said:


> BMW dealer. It wasn't until I asked pointedly about the recall that the sale was halted. If I hadn't asked they would have proceeded with the sale I believe.


That part is troubling. You would think all vehicles would be flagged or that they would be checking before listing a vehicle for sale so as to limit their own liability.


----------



## Wagongirl1975 (May 30, 2017)

Amazingly just got a call. They checked the maintenance records and confirmed that the airbag has been replaced. I guess that is why the vehicle was listed. 

I'm asking for written documentation. 

I'm happy that this was just a misunderstanding.


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

You can check BMW's record by entering the last 7 characters of the VIN in here http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/owner/safetyrecalls.aspx?mobileoverride=true
Good luck.


----------



## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Wagongirl1975 said:


> Amazingly just got a call. They checked the maintenance records and confirmed that the airbag has been replaced. I guess that is why the vehicle was listed.
> 
> I'm asking for written documentation.
> 
> I'm happy that this was just a misunderstanding.


PM me the last 7 of your VIN and I can take a look.
mjb


----------



## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

FYI

2 weeks ago I had my E90 in for an oil change and I asked about the air bag recall and time line. The SA said they were looking at up to 3 years. He said thee was nothing they could do but he gave me the number for BMWNA customer relations. I called and with very little effort they agreed to expedite the recall on my car. Within a week the part had arrived at the dealer and I had the airbag replaced today.

So I went from being in complete limbo with a wait of up to 3 years to having the whole thing done within 2 weeks.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.


----------



## Wagongirl1975 (May 30, 2017)

Awesome!!!! Congrats!


----------



## nellysford (Jun 5, 2017)

*Date of recall*

What was the date(s) of the BMW recall? I bought a 2013 128i convertible on 4/13/15 and am wondering whether the recall had been issued prior to that date.

Thanks


----------



## nellysford (Jun 5, 2017)

Hi. What was the magical telephone number?


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

nellysford said:


> What was the date(s) of the BMW recall? I bought a 2013 128i convertible on 4/13/15 and am wondering whether the recall had been issued prior to that date.
> 
> Thanks


February 5, 2016 Recall 16v-071
BMW Customer Relations 1 800 525 7417


----------



## bamabetz (Aug 16, 2011)

Just spent about 30 minutes searching and reading and have seen it said several times about how the recall law doesn't extend to used cars or used dealers.... Feeling sick because the sales person lied to us and said the recall had been done. We didn't realize there was a recall until we were about to sign papers and asked. Sales manager is now saying we signed a disclosure saying we knew it hadn't been done and that is that. Doesn't help I'm in Afghanistan and wife went to sign with our 4yo son in tow. What a pain in the butt.


----------



## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

bamabetz said:


> Just spent about 30 minutes searching and reading and have seen it said several times about how the recall law doesn't extend to used cars or used dealers.... Feeling sick because the sales person lied to us and said the recall had been done. We didn't realize there was a recall until we were about to sign papers and asked. Sales manager is now saying we signed a disclosure saying we knew it hadn't been done and that is that. Doesn't help I'm in Afghanistan and wife went to sign with our 4yo son in tow. What a pain in the butt.


Understand BMW is obligated to install a new airbag in all cars in the US, whether you bought it from a BMW or not. But there is a limited supply so far. You and your wife got a sleezy deal from the used car dealer, but BMW owes you an airbag under the safety recall, when available. Your family and BMW are in the US? You are in Afghanistan? Perhaps serving your country in some capacity? I would contact BMW Customer Relations (phone number 2 posts up) , tell them your story, suggest you'll be a happy BMW customer forever, if there's any way BMW can expedite replacement of your airbag to ease your concern about your wife and child's safety back in THE US. Good luck.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

jhm5 is spot on. BMWNA wants you to have a safe car, especially if you're overseas serving your country. Call BMW and give them the opportunity to do right by you ASAP. Best of luck.


----------

