# So is ED really not a deal anymore!?



## exl_ent_v6 (Aug 8, 2012)

I've been getting prices on my next purchase and it looks like ED does not save any money at all. Are you all experiencing that as well? Looks like PCD for me this go around. I still might plan a trip to Germany and rent one and hit up all the manufacturers (BMW, MB, Porsche, VW)


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

Someone will point you to a thread that addresses this same question. The short answer is "no". ED isn't what it used to be, but it's still a fabulous experience. You'll get the best deals negotiating for what's in the dealership's inventory.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

This was discussed in the ED section, in the following thread (which is still on the first page).

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1139785

TL ; DR version

It may be worth it slightly for the experience, or if you were going already. Otherwise, stateside delivery is cheaper because no incentives apply to Euro delivery other than BMW CCA rebate.

EDIT.. .I was typing this response before gluhwein responded... good call out lol.


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

jjrandorin said:


> It may be worth it slightly for the experience, or if you were going already.


Just a clarification point on my end - the experience is absolutely fantastic, particularly if you're someone who enjoys traveling or exploring.

It does appear that EDs are no longer the deal that they used to be, but I suspect all our future BMWs will still come via that method. Very disappointed that we didn't do one on my M5.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

For us it wasn't about the deal and or great price, it was the fact we were able to tour Europe in our own car. The factory tour and all the other benefits were all pluses. Would we go it again, YES, in fact, we are looking to do one with a Volvo V90.


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## sno_duc (Sep 3, 2008)

exl_ent_v6 said:


> I've been getting prices on my next purchase and it looks like ED does not save any money at all. Are you all experiencing that as well? Looks like PCD for me this go around. I still might plan a trip to Germany and rent one and hit up all the manufacturers (BMW, MB, Porsche, VW)


We have done 3 EDs; '12 BMW 328 , '14 BMW 335GT, and '16 Porsche Cayman.
As has been stated in the thread it's more about the experience than $$$, not that saving some money isn't nice.

If you decide to go with Porsche, go for a Leipzig delivery.


> Leipzig:
> Factory Tour
> Vehicle delivery by a trained instructor
> Lunch
> ...


The "test track" has exact recreations of a number of famous corners from tracks around the world. (cork screw, karrousel, Porsche curves, bus stop....)
As an added bonus you'll be driving a like -n- kind loaner with an instructor riding shotgun to give you pointers.


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## pawarrant (Jun 15, 2006)

If you are doing it for the experience and for a European vacation it is well worth it. Having your car allows you to experience many parts of Europe you would not normally see if you just flew into one or two big European cities. Saving money on the car is just an added bonus. While the discounts have gotten smaller in the past couple years, it is still a discount. Also, since the car does not come out of dealer allocation (unless its an M car), you can negotiate a great price with most dealers that are experienced in ED. I love to travel and the experience is second to none. BMW definitely has a top notch delivery experience at the Welt. I lease and look forward to the experience every 3 years. I wouldn't et my car any other way. Now if you are just looking to get a BMW for the least amount of payment possible, then I would recommend finding something on someone's lot stateside that they are willing to deal on.


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

exl_ent_v6 said:


> I've been getting prices on my next purchase and it looks like ED does not save any money at all. Are you all experiencing that as well?)


My feeling is that if one is an average or poor negotiator or if the dealer is extremely hawkish in pricing, European Delivery is cheaper. US delivery is cheaper if one is a good negotiator or if the dealer is not too aggressive in negotiating.


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## The Sage (Nov 27, 2014)

Dave 20T said:


> My feeling is that if one is an average or poor negotiator or if the dealer is extremely hawkish in pricing, European Delivery is cheaper. US delivery is cheaper if one is a good negotiator or if the dealer is not too aggressive in negotiating.


It also depends on BMW incentive programs. We were planning our 2nd ED this year for a new X1. Last week of 2017 our local dealer sent us a letter on an incentive program to end our previous lease early and get into a new BMW. We ended up getting the X1 much cheaper than if we did the ED.

On the first go around on the negotiation, we were presented a price with $4500 off, with BMW incentive programs. Without hesitation I said yes. Turns out when we got to finance guy for paperwork, they made a mistake and incentive was only $3000. Finance guy talks to sales manager and comes back and says the dealership will eat the other $1500 to honor the original deal.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Dave 20T said:


> My feeling is that if one is an average or poor negotiator or if the dealer is extremely hawkish in pricing, European Delivery is cheaper. *US delivery is cheaper if one is a good negotiator* or if the dealer is not too aggressive in negotiating.


I do not see why when the starting point is an immediate 5% off the base for ED. Yeah that are a few charges that put a dent in that. I also realize it is time once again for the monthly value of ED debate. :rofl:


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

There is no debate here on this one. I have done 6 BMW Euro Dliveries since 2001 so I am quite familiar with the program over the last 17 years. I typically saved 11 to 12% pff of US MSRP. You can't get anywhere near that now. It is that simple. It was a great opportunity to save a lot of money and tour Europe. Now it is a much worse deal. For me it really hurts my brand loyalty to BMW.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

pharding said:


> There is no debate here on this one. I have done 6 BMW Euro Dliveries since 2001 so I am quite familiar with the program over the last 17 years. I typically saved 11 to 12% pff of US MSRP. You can't get anywhere near that now. It is that simple. It was a great opportunity to save a lot of money and tour Europe.* Now it is a much worse deal. *For me it really hurts my brand loyalty to BMW.


There is no debate here. Some of us are still getting ED deals where the dealer and CA are making only a couple of hundred. If you can't get that now that is a YOU problem. The ED program had some cuts but "a much worse deal" is gross hyperbole. It is that simple.


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## Daryll (Jun 10, 2016)

Gluhwein said:


> Someone will point you to a thread that addresses this same question. The short answer is "no". ED isn't what it used to be, but it's still a fabulous experience. You'll get the best deals negotiating for what's in the dealership's inventory.


Agreed 100%. While we possibly could have bought the car for the same price or less with US delivery, the experience was amazing and we turned it into a great family vacation. Very likely that we will do it again, hopefully with an M car next time.

Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## exl_ent_v6 (Aug 8, 2012)

yeah I'm just basing off of experience with some brokers that I work with who've gotten me great prices, they've told me just stick with US delivery and it's cheaper. I'm still ordering the call and all so it's not like they're giving me a "deal" on a car on the lot ya know. Oh well, maybe next one I'll just do it to get the experience. Still gotta plan my big international trip for 2018 though...


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## keylime503 (Mar 25, 2015)

Gary J said:


> There is no debate here. Some of us are still getting ED deals where the dealer and CA are making only a couple of hundred. If you can't get that now that is a YOU problem. The ED program had some cuts but "a much worse deal" is gross hyperbole. It is that simple.


The problem is that deals where "the dealer and CA are making only a couple of hundred" is no longer a great deal. I got ED Invoice + $400 on my M240 ED in July, but since no incentives apply to ED I actually would have had a lower sale price if I could have done US Invoice + $400 - Incentives at that time. Now, whether I could have gotten Invoice + $400 on an allocation car is another matter .


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Gary J said:


> There is no debate here. Some of us are still getting ED deals where the dealer and CA are making only a couple of hundred. If you can't get that now that is a YOU problem. The ED program had some cuts but "a much worse deal" is gross hyperbole. It is that simple.


The ED program has some cuts, but US delivery has major incentives, e.g. till Jan 31 2018:

BMWFS finance + corporate BMWFS finance = $4000 + $500 = $4500
non-BMWFS cash + corporate non-BMWFS = $3000 + $2000 = $5000

Also for current bimmer owner, the BMWFS will dole with extra $750, so BMWFS finance can get *$5250 off, on top of a US invoice deal for MY18*.

To make up the difference on that $5250 in 5% off for ED, one needs to take up a $105k car. 

If one already has an Euro vacation planned, and your significant other already signed off plane tickets, accommodation, then ED will be great, given it can save on expensive Euro rentals.

Other than that, the current incentives are set up to encourage US delivery.:thumbup:


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

keylime503 said:


> The problem is that deals where "the dealer and CA are making only a couple of hundred" is no longer a great deal.


So it would be a good deal if neither the dealer after BMW kickbacks and the CA make no money.

That makes sense. :rofl:


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## keylime503 (Mar 25, 2015)

Gary J said:


> So it would be a good deal if neither the dealer after BMW kickbacks and the CA make no money.
> 
> That makes sense. :rofl:


You're forgetting about a little thing called incentives. That is why a deal that ends up at "only" a couple hundred above invoice may no longer be considered a good deal, since you can easily get several thousand below invoice now and the dealer/CA *still* make money.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Ah, I did forget about incentives - like 5% off the base for starters.


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## keylime503 (Mar 25, 2015)

Unless you're buying an M6 or a 7 series over 100k, a single $3k incentive will outweigh the 5% ED discount.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> NA is no longer AG biggest customer.
> 
> Do Chinese/Japanese/Brazilian/Aussy customers get to use ED delivery and drop off at same drop-off locations as US customers?


I don't think that those sales regions have an official BMW Welt vehicle pickup program like what BMW of NA offers in the U.S. market or what BMW AG offers Germany domestic market customers, based on what I saw at www.bmw.com.cn, www.bmw.co.jp, www.bmw.com.br, and www.bmw.com.au. I think that LHD configuration in Japan and Australia may present a challenge for ED. Also, many BMW automobiles for China customers are assembled at the BMW Brilliance plants in Shenyang rather than in Europe.

Thumbs up to dkreidel for checking on the situation in China. :thumbup:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

gkr778 said:


> I don't think that those sales regions have an official BMW Welt vehicle pickup program like what BMW of NA offers in the U.S. market or what BMW AG offers Germany domestic market customers, based on what I saw at www.bmw.com.cn, www.bmw.co.jp, www.bmw.com.br, and www.bmw.com.au. I think that LHD configuration in Japan and Australia may present a challenge for ED. Also, many BMW automobiles for China customers are assembled at the BMW Brilliance plants in Shenyang rather than in Europe.
> 
> Thumbs up to dkreidel for checking on the situation in China. :thumbup:


If those drop off locations are only used by BMWNA customers(including Canada?) then the costs of operating those locations will need to be shouldered by BMWNA customers too.

BTW, bmwblog has an article of BMW's(and other Euro maker's) EDs. The article said in 1960's NA customers went for their first Euro vacations(many returned after previous military services in Europe), and EDs were started to introduce customers to the brands, and lock in brand loyalties. So regardless of ED or US deliveries, the ED programs were meant to increase sales, rather than cater to euro travels!


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> The article said in 1960's NA customers went for their first Euro vacations(many returned after previous military services in Europe), and EDs were started to introduce customers to the brands, and lock in brand loyalties. So regardless of ED or US deliveries, the ED programs were meant to increase sales, rather than cater to euro travels!


+1
Indeed, Bimmerfest member jspira wrote a superb article on the topic of European Delivery for the online magazine Frequent Business Traveler that mentions this.



Frequent Business Traveler said:


> *"Today's European Delivery programs can trace their roots directly back to the 1950s when members of the armed forces returning from Europe brought with them a taste for smaller and somewhat sportier European cars. Indeed, many soldiers and airmen purchased cars for use in Europe and then shipped their cars to the States.
> 
> Mercedes-Benz, Saab, and Volvo started their European Delivery programs in the 1950s, but the 1960s, with the advent of the jet age, gave European carmakers the impetus to market to those Americans who might be taking their first European vacation."*


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

namelessman said:


> If those drop off locations are only used by BMWNA customers(including Canada?) then the costs of operating those locations will need to be shouldered by BMWNA customers too.


Drop locations are used by many European auto manufacturers, not just BMW. There were ED Volvos and MB's as well as BMW's in the lot when I dropped the 440xi in November.

I checked the data plates on my Taiwanese supplier's fleet of BMWs last night: M6GC, M4, 760 M and X5 M50d were all built in Germany, not China.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

namelessman said:


> If those drop off locations are only used by BMWNA customers(including Canada?) then the costs of operating those locations will need to be shouldered by BMWNA customers too.
> 
> BTW, bmwblog has an article of BMW's(and other Euro maker's) EDs. The article said in 1960's NA customers went for their first Euro vacations(many returned after previous military services in Europe), and EDs were started to introduce customers to the brands, and lock in brand loyalties. So regardless of ED or US deliveries, the ED programs were meant to increase sales, rather than cater to euro travels!


Yep- the program was meant to build brand loyalty. Now that bmw has strong brand recognition and loyalty, they probably realized that they didn't need to incentivize ED as much as they once did. Let's be happy they didn't go the Porsche route and give no discount


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

bmw325 said:


> Let***8217;s be happy they didn***8217;t go the Porsche route and give no discount


While Porsche Cars North America's ED program indeed lacks a purchase price discount on the car, this arrangement represents a significant improvement in value proposition compared to PCNA's past policy: prior to February 2012, PCNA customers doing Euro Delivery had to pay an additional fee ranging from approximately $1,000 (US) to more than $4,000 depending on model.

I'm pretty sure that of the brands with European Delivery programs for U.S. customers, BMW was the only one that effectively applied an across the board price increase for ED in that six year period.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

gkr778 said:


> While Porsche Cars North America's ED program indeed lacks a purchase price discount on the car, this arrangement represents a significant improvement in value proposition compared to PCNA's past policy: prior to February 2012, PCNA customers doing Euro Delivery had to pay an additional fee ranging from approximately $1,000 (US) to more than $4,000 depending on model.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that of the brands with European Delivery programs for U.S. customers, BMW was the only one that effectively applied an across the board price increase for ED in that six year period.


BMWAG and BMWNA have been too generous with ED to US customers, probably all along US had been the biggest and deepest market among BMW's global footprints.

Since US now no longer dominates BMW sales, the goodies naturally have been curtailed.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> Volvo Cars cares about improving its sales performance in the U.S. market. BMW doesn't.





namelessman said:


> So regardless of ED or US deliveries, the ED programs were meant to increase sales, rather than cater to euro travels!


Yes I going with increase sales.



gkr778 said:


> PCNA customers doing Euro Delivery had to pay an additional fee ranging from approximately $1,000 (US) to more than $4,000 depending on model.


Kind of like European BMW ED customers now.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

llando88 said:


> Great thread.
> 
> I'm pondering an ED next year and dropped in looking for just this kind of info.
> 
> ...


There are always pro's and Con's, but I can say that our ED was our best vacation. I would do it again in a heart beat.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

namelessman said:


> Visa Traditional CC's with auto secondary CDWs become primary since US based auto insurance does not provide coverage in Europe.
> 
> Visa Signature/Infinite(e.g. Sapphire Preferred/*Sapphire Reserve*) does have primary auto CDW worldwide.





Shon528 said:


> :thumbup:
> My favorite card.


I have a couple, Amex Platinum, Sapphire Reserve and Citi Prestige.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

dkreidel said:


> Drop locations are used by many European auto manufacturers, not just BMW. There were ED Volvos and MB's as well as BMW's in the lot when I dropped the 440xi in November.
> 
> I checked the data plates on my Taiwanese supplier's fleet of BMWs last night: M6GC, M4, 760 M and X5 M50d were all built in Germany, not China.


It looks like Chinese ED has been discussed.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569552


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## alewifebp (Sep 20, 2008)

Eagle11 said:


> I have a couple, Amex Platinum, Sapphire Reserve and Citi Prestige.


I was able to get the Sapphire Reserve before the devaluing. 100,000 UR points and travel credit per calendar year instead of per card year.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

alewifebp said:


> I was able to get the Sapphire Reserve before the devaluing. 100,000 UR points and travel credit per calendar year instead of per card year.


Which devaluing for the SR? I was allowed to product switch into the JPMorgan Reserve from the Select, as the 100,000 UR wasn't applicable. AmEx Platinum has a better hotel program, as Visa Infinite has a way to go, but AmEx has gutted the Centurion Card benefits. AmEx has the better foreign exchange rate, but is not accepted much outside of major DE cities.


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## Shon528 (Oct 3, 2003)

alewifebp said:


> I was able to get the Sapphire Reserve before the devaluing. 100,000 UR points and travel credit per calendar year instead of per card year.





Ibiza said:


> Which devaluing for the SR? I was allowed to product switch into the JPMorgan Reserve from the Select, as the 100,000 UR wasn't applicable. AmEx Platinum has a better hotel program, as Visa Infinite has a way to go, but AmEx has gutted the Centurion Card benefits. AmEx has the better foreign exchange rate, but is not accepted much outside of major DE cities.


About this time last year, sign up bonus for the Reserve was dropped from 100k points to 50k. I already had it and I got my wife to get one also for the 100k bonus. We easily cover both annual fees with the travel credits, global entry, and our trips. Last year we used points to go to St. Thomas, Disney, N. Carolina, and a Patriots away game (go Pats!). This year we're going to the Bahamas for Super Bowl weekend as well as a family trip to Maui in the fall. And we still have points left! So back in line w/ the original thread topic, next year's big trip (fall 2019) would hopefully be to Germany and Italy for Euro Delivery of my next car as this 340 lease is up in Jan 2020.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Shon528 said:


> About this time last year, sign up bonus for the Reserve was dropped from 100k points to 50k. I already had it and I got my wife to get one also for the 100k bonus. We easily cover both annual fees with the travel credits, global entry, and our trips. Last year we used points to go to St. Thomas, Disney, N. Carolina, and a Patriots away game (go Pats!). This year we're going to the Bahamas for Super Bowl weekend as well as a family trip to Maui in the fall. And we still have points left! So back in line w/ the original thread topic, next year's big trip (fall 2019) would hopefully be to Germany and Italy for Euro Delivery of my next car as this 340 lease is up in Jan 2020.


Yes 100k points were sweet, but were quickly spent on a VA upper class experience!


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## keylime503 (Mar 25, 2015)

namelessman said:


> Yes 100k points were sweet, but were quickly spent on a VA upper class experience!


My CSR 100k went towards Singapore Business Class on the way back from my ED :thumbup:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

keylime503 said:


> My CSR 100k went towards Singapore Business Class on the way back from my ED :thumbup:


Are SQ lounges good?

The VA ones are phenomenal, e.g. LHR has its own VA upper class wing, plus arrival lounge, plus limo door-to-door.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

namelessman said:


> Are SQ lounges good?
> 
> The VA ones are phenomenal, e.g. LHR has its own VA upper class wing, plus arrival lounge, plus limo door-to-door.


SQ lounges in the US aren't all that good, the VA lounges are better here in the states. Overall I would never spend my points on VA, their hard product is 10yrs past its prime. When we went to Europe for our ED, we flew, LH FC on the A380 that was a very nice ride and the FC Terminal at FRA is over the top nice.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Eagle11 said:


> SQ lounges in the US aren't all that good, the VA lounges are better here in the states. Overall I would never spend my points on VA, their hard product is 10yrs past its prime. When we went to Europe for our ED, we flew, LH FC on the A380 that was a very nice ride and the FC Terminal at FRA is over the top nice.


Our routes used 787-9, those appeared to be pretty new, smooth and quite too.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

namelessman said:


> Our routes used 787-9, those appeared to be pretty new, smooth and quite too.


Hard Product could mean plane and seats, I was referring to the seats since all VA planes (except for the 4 Air Berlin A332 planes) have the same old tired seats.


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