# Dealer training/MACO fees, is it just dealer pocket cash??



## Mtn Xer (Nov 9, 2011)

So I was working out the deal this past weekend with a NY area dealer. I agreed to $500 over invoice, plus invoice pricing on options ofcourse. Then he comes back with a number higher than I originally had calculated myself. 

He had the right prices for the invoice price as well as the options BUT added $480 to the end, and said this is "training/MACO fees." He also put the destinated as NON-invoiced but as a flat $875 at the end. I said that wasn't part out of deal. He says these two fees are charged on every BMW that is sold, it isn't advertised but BMW dealers must charge it. He then proceeds to print out a pricing sheet on a car, and shows all the invoice vs MSRP pricing, and at the bottom, there was destination which was $875 and Training fee $180 MACO fee $300 in both fields, and neither are invoiced. He said that neither the destination is invoiced nor can the training/MACO fee be waived or included originally as part of the invoice. My feeling is it seems like its pocket cash. This in actuality is then $980 above invoice, and if the destination isn't being invoice priced then that is more too, so its over $1000 over... Right or wrong? 

Is this a scam? I unfortunately have already signed the deal, put a deposit, and had the car ordered this monday with a production slot allocated. Can this still be re-negotiated until the day of pickup? Should I try to find another dealer who wont blast me with these stupid fees or are they legit?


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## lqaddict (Dec 5, 2006)

Mtn Xer said:


> So I was working out the deal this past weekend with a NY area dealer. I agreed to $500 over invoice, plus invoice pricing on options ofcourse. Then he comes back with a number higher than I originally had calculated myself.
> 
> He had the right prices for the invoice price as well as the options BUT added $480 to the end, and said this is "training/MACO fees." He also put the destinated as NON-invoiced but as a flat $875 at the end. I said that wasn't part out of deal. He says these two fees are charged on every BMW that is sold, it isn't advertised but BMW dealers must charge it. He then proceeds to print out a pricing sheet on a car, and shows all the invoice vs MSRP pricing, and at the bottom, there was destination which was $875 and Training fee $180 MACO fee $300 in both fields, and neither are invoiced. He said that neither the destination is invoiced nor can the training/MACO fee be waived or included originally as part of the invoice. My feeling is it seems like its pocket cash. This in actuality is then $980 above invoice, and if the destination isn't being invoice priced then that is more too, so its over $1000 over... Right or wrong?
> 
> Is this a scam? I unfortunately have already signed the deal, put a deposit, and had the car ordered this monday with a production slot allocated. Can this still be re-negotiated until the day of pickup? Should I try to find another dealer who wont blast me with these stupid fees or are they legit?


Destination fee is not part of the invoice.
MACO/training fees are standard practice as well


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## ///M Rakete (Apr 1, 2002)

Mtn Xer said:


> So I was working out the deal this past weekend with a NY area dealer. I agreed to $500 over invoice, plus invoice pricing on options ofcourse. Then he comes back with a number higher than I originally had calculated myself.
> 
> He had the right prices for the invoice price as well as the options BUT added $480 to the end, and said this is "training/MACO fees." He also put the destinated as NON-invoiced but as a flat $875 at the end. I said that wasn't part out of deal. He says these two fees are charged on every BMW that is sold, it isn't advertised but BMW dealers must charge it. He then proceeds to print out a pricing sheet on a car, and shows all the invoice vs MSRP pricing, and at the bottom, there was destination which was $875 and Training fee $180 MACO fee $300 in both fields, and neither are invoiced. He said that neither the destination is invoiced nor can the training/MACO fee be waived or included originally as part of the invoice. My feeling is it seems like its pocket cash. This in actuality is then $980 above invoice, and if the destination isn't being invoice priced then that is more too, so its over $1000 over... Right or wrong?
> 
> Is this a scam? I unfortunately have already signed the deal, put a deposit, and had the car ordered this monday with a production slot allocated. Can this still be re-negotiated until the day of pickup? Should I try to find another dealer who wont blast me with these stupid fees or are they legit?


It's not a scam. BMWNA invoices the dealer for those fees as part of selling them the car.


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## Mtn Xer (Nov 9, 2011)

Well I guess I shouldnt ask if its a scam...I'm just asking if its negotiable or are the training/MACO fees more like the destination where EVERY SINGLE car no matter dealer model price whatever gets charged this fee?

OR is this something that each dealer just decides at time of sale whether they want to add it or not? Say for example if they sold a car at $1000 below MSRP they'll waive the training/MACO (since theyre making a decent profit already) but if they do it from invoice and they agree to $500 above invoice, then they tag it on, making it in essence not really $500 over invoice, and in actuality its just increasing their profit. I went through a lot of discussion already with them regarding this on that day and they didnt seem to budge.


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## bzcat (Sep 23, 2009)

Invoice consisted of wholesale price of the car + destination + MACO + training. What you thought was "invoice" is the wholesale price of the car, not the invoice price.

If you agreed to pay $500 over invoice, you agreed to pay $500 over the actual invoice, which obviously include destination charge, MACO, and training.


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## bmwarchitect (Dec 3, 2010)

Compare your invoice from the dealer to invoice on bmwconfig.com for your vehicle as optioned. It lists the training fee and the destination, but not the MACO. Carquotes.com is another source that lists destination, training and advertising (MACO).


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Every BMW sold in the USA has the "Training" fee added.

MACO fees apply if a dealer participates in a market co-op advertising program. If they do, every new BMW that is invoiced to their dealer will have a MACO fee added by BMW. There is no way that they can remove this fee once BMW puts it on. Even if they dealer trade it to another dealer that is not a MACO dealer, that fee stays on the invoice and it is up to the dealers to see how to cover that cost.

So yes, they are both legitimate fees. 


Bottom line, it really depends on where you start your calculations. i.e. I can show you these two deals

Invoice......$50,000.......$50,500
Profit.............$500..............500
MACO............$300...................
Training.........$200...................

TOTAL.......$51,000.......$51,000

end of the day, you are paying the same price.... it just depends on if I start with an "invoice" price that includes those fees or if I strip them out and add them back later. A BMWNA invoice sheet will itemize them in the final invoice price. The online sites like truecar, etc. might not include those fees and you have to add them in to get the final invoice price.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

For what it's worth, BMW Config is completely unreliable. Errors on almost every order I verify... 
Not just wholesale option prices but also base MSRPs...

:thumbdwn:


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## ///M Rakete (Apr 1, 2002)

And before someone says the dealers are just circling the wagons this is all true. BMW's internal "Vehicle Inquiry: Wholesale/MSRP" report will list these fees as applicable to the car. Didn't your dealer show you the report for car? It will list MACO, Training, Gas Guzzler, and Destination plus the base price of the car and all of the options.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

The fees are legit.

You can try to negotiate all you want, but I wouldn't hold my breath. What you are describing is a "mini deal", where the CA (salesman) mankes very little $$$. It's not worth his time, or his sales manager's time, to have you try to grind them down. What you have on the table is a really fair deal; it is not the dealer's fault you had misconceptions about how the pricing works.

BTW even though you "ordered" the car, you can back out up to and including the day of delivery, right up until you sign the lease or finance agreement. Unless the order sheet is clearly marked otherwise, they have to refund your deposit.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Mtn Xer said:


> OR is this something that each dealer just decides at time of sale whether they want to add it or not? Say for example if they sold a car at $1000 below MSRP they'll waive the training/MACO (since theyre making a decent profit already) but if they do it from invoice and they agree to $500 above invoice, then they tag it on, making it in essence not really $500 over invoice, a*nd in actuality its just increasing their profit*. I went through a lot of discussion already with them regarding this on that day and they didnt seem to budge.


Not to beat a dead horse, but you are jsut getting wrapped up in semantics.

I do not understand your statement- you say if they are selling at MSRP they will "waive" the maco/training... NO!!! The don't "waive" it, they just absorb it in the profit.

But if they are selling the car for near what they pay, they just cannot (will not) take a loss on it (ie eat the maco and training).

Given two different scenarios, with different profits, and to then extrapolate this calculus as being indicative that this fee isn't "mandatory" is nuts...

It really is incredibly simple...they must be shaking their heads.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

SARAFIL said:


> Every BMW *sold *in the USA has the "Training" fee added.


Except for European Delivery cars.

Perhaps better to say "Every BMW delivered in the USA..."


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## kyfdx (Aug 4, 2003)

ard said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but you are jsut getting wrapped up in semantics.
> 
> I do not understand your statement- you say if they are selling at MSRP they will "waive" the maco/training... NO!!! The don't "waive" it, they just absorb it in the profit.
> 
> ...


Agreed.... it's all semantics..

This is what happens when you start negotiating from "invoice"..

You want to know the invoice, but make all of your offers in dollars... .you know.. those things you use to pay the bills...


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