# Your Questions Concerning the BMW Concept M5



## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> Who cares?
> 
> From my POV, SMG is only a more efficient version of Steptronic. Sure, there's no torque converter and there is a clutch (albeit computer controlled).
> 
> ...


for you, no. But to say that from a driver's perspective SMG is not a substitute for a real stick, is overreaching. There are many many DRIVERS who have and truly enjoy SMG.

Resistance is futile...Hell, you're satisfied to drive a car with DBW, it's only a matter of time before SMG is acceptable too.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> for you, no. But to say that from a driver's perspective SMG is not a substitute for a real stick, is overreaching. There are many many DRIVERS who have and truly enjoy SMG.


 So, fine, offer it. But don't make it the ONLY alternative.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Sorry, as much as I like a real MT, if I were in the market for something like a E60M5 (which I'm not because it's so ugly and iDrive is a POS), given that the 7-SMG(III?) would be at least as good, if not better than SMGII, I'd be hard-pressed to take a 6-MT over it.

Unlike a number of people who've never done it, I've actually driven 5MT, 5AT step, 6AT step (briefly) SSG, SMGII and 6MT (the latter 2 both in E46M3s). I HATE conventional automatics, and steptronic has never convinced me otherwise (if anything, it has some specifically awful characteristics). SSG is also a POS; I'd liken it to a Kia-ized version of SMGII, which I rather like. Especially considering all the dumbing/numbing down of conventional MTs these days with fancy flywheels, CDVs and the like that hinder precise and predictable use, I'd rather have less but consitent interaction over more but inconsistent ones.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> for you, no. But to say that from a driver's perspective SMG is not a substitute for a real stick, is overreaching. There are many many DRIVERS who have and truly enjoy SMG.


And what about the drivers who would want to enjoy a manual transmission in an M5 ? They have no choice. Totally ignored, IMO. :dunno:


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> Who cares?
> 
> From my POV, SMG is only a more efficient version of Steptronic. Sure, there's no torque converter and there is a clutch (albeit computer controlled).
> 
> ...


Have you ever driven SMG? I don't remember you ever having done so.

I do think there should be an option for a standard manual, but I care much more about absolute control of the transmission. SMG offers that. It is a manual without a clutch to worry about, that is attractive.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> And what about the drivers who would want to enjoy a manual transmission in an M5 ? They have no choice. Totally ignored, IMO. :dunno:


Yep. And pretty amazing IMHO. ESPECIALLY considering that this is a M5. 20 years and 35,000 cars later?

Ok ...

-


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## Bill Dance (Jul 21, 2003)

How can anyone say that SMG is a substitute for a true manual? It is more of a substitute for an automatic.
There is so much more to it than lap times.
When I drive my car, I feel the pressure of the clutch, the vibration of the driveline through the stick, the slight resistance of the gears as I select the next ratio, and the satisfaction of occasionally pulling off a perfect up- or down- shift. 
When I drove an SMG M3 I got none of that. If there is a God, I will never drive one again.

BMW and their SMG-only M5 can burn in hell.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Bill Dance said:


> How can anyone say that SMG is a substitute for a true manual?


Because they've driven both and feel that way :dunno:


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## KevinM (May 2, 2003)

They can have my manual transmission when they pry the stick out of my cold, dead hands...  

Ok, Ok, but I side with those who at least want the option of the 6MT in the M5. I drove a SMGII M3 at the BMW Driving School and was much more impressed than I thought I would be. However, I still think the SMG takes some of the skill/art away from driving. Soon it will not matter as the writing is on the wall; true MTs will be but a fond memory in new cars.  For the time being, however, when I line up with someone at a traffic light, I enjoy knowing that my skill is as important as the tourque curve.

Ironically, I came into the BMW fold initially because I was looking for a mid-size European sport sedan with a manual transmission; at the time, only the E39 fit the bill...I test drove a 528 and that was that.

I guess I'll have to grab an 2002 or 2003 E39 M5 soon... :thumbup: 

Kevin


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

First of all, thanks to BMW for starting this thread, and soliciting our input.

Second, I thought the reason for going with SMG was because a 7-speed transmission couldn't be easily shifted with an H-pattern shifter. Whether one needs 7 forward gears is another question altogether.

Like others are saying, there's a huge difference between Steptronic or any kind of slushbox and SMG, and I haven't even driven an SMG. For example, Steptronic doesn't rev-match downshifts which leads to lurching downshifts, and takes forever to change gears.

--Andre


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## Bill Dance (Jul 21, 2003)

I guess the new M5 would be totally undrivable with only 6 forward gears.

And because the owners of the new M5 will be spending so much time on the track racing wheel-to-wheel, they need their downshifts to be as fast as possible. Much faster than what would be possible with the sorry standard manual on something like the Porsche Carrera GT.

SMG is just a concession to the people that want to read the paper while driving to work, but still don't want to have to admit having an automatic in their M.

edit:
"It's not an automatic, its SMG! Robot-controlled manual!"
>Where is the clutch pedal?
"It's controlled AUTOMATICALLY!"
>So it is an automatic.
"No one who has driven one would say that!!!"


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## Maverick88 (Jul 5, 2003)

KevinM said:


> They can have my manual transmission when they pry the stick out of my cold, dead hands...
> 
> Ok, Ok, but I side with those who at least want the option of the 6MT in the M5. I drove a SMGII M3 at the BMW Driving School and was much more impressed than I thought I would be. However, I still think the SMG takes some of the skill/art away from driving. Soon it will not matter as the writing is on the wall; true MTs will be but a fond memory in new cars.  For the time being, however, when I line up with someone at a traffic light, I enjoy knowing that my skill is as important as the tourque curve.
> 
> ...


 I agree - but I will not stop at the MT - I propose that BMW moves away from all technical nonsense and goes back to the basics like drum brakes and unassisted steering. Driving should not be safe or efficient, all technical innovation should be halted to ensure everyone has a "pure" driving experience.

Cost issues be damned, innovation must be halted!


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Maverick88 said:


> I agree - but I will not stop at the MT - I propose that BMW moves away from all technical nonsense and goes back to the basics like drum brakes and unassisted steering. Driving should not be safe or efficient, all technical innovation should be halted to ensure everyone has a "pure" driving experience.
> 
> Cost issues be damned, innovation must be halted!


 It's not about stifling innovation, it's about stifling choice. Offer both options. If the market decides SMG rox and 6-speed sux, (as would certainly be the case with drum brakes and leaf springs), then so be it. But the market is not there yet, as evidenced by the opinions of many, not just on this board.

:dunno:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Maverick88 said:


> I agree - but I will not stop at the MT - I propose that BMW moves away from all technical nonsense and goes back to the basics like drum brakes and unassisted steering. Driving should not be safe or efficient, all technical innovation should be halted to ensure everyone has a "pure" driving experience.
> 
> Cost issues be damned, innovation must be halted!


sounds like you need an Elise Sport 190 :dunno:


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## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

Plaz said:


> It's not about stifling innovation, it's about stifling choice. Offer both options. If the market decides SMG rox and 6-speed sux, (as would certainly be the case with drum brakes and leaf springs), then so be it. But the market is not there yet, as evidenced by the opinions of many, not just on this board.
> 
> :dunno:


It probably boils down to money, as always... Having one type of transmission instead of two or more means less planning and manufacturing costs, less inventory to maintain, etc. Although I agree that it would be better for them to offer both and see what sells better, the bean counters probably won't let them... They probably view SMG as a decent compromise. It woudl be interesting to know of the BMWs sold last year, what were the percentages of manual vs. automatics vs. SMG... Then break it down again by M vs. non-M cars... Maybe the "average" BMW buyer is no longer the sterotypical gear head looking for the perfect shift... if that's the case, then they are just selling to their "true" market... People on BMW forums tend to be enthusiasts... There are a whole bunch of people out there who don't even know these forums are out here, and are just happy driving their cars... My .02...


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Salvator said:


> ... Maybe the "average" BMW buyer is no longer the sterotypical gear head looking for the perfect shift... if that's the case, then they are just selling to their "true" market... People on BMW forums tend to be enthusiasts... There are a whole bunch of people out there who don't even know these forums are out here, and are just happy driving their cars... My .02...


From a BUSINESS perspective, this makes sense, of course. You don't want to know what 80% of E46M3C drivers are where I live... 

It's not that I don't support/understand BMW's position of making SMG potentially mandatory on the E60M5 (see my earlier post). But I DO agree with those who want to see BMW continue their tradition of catering to their traditional enthusiast market. But this is an area that appears to be less in the consciousness of BMW these days. Granted, manuals are available in every model from 325i through X3, 545i and X5 3.0, despite the fact that they sell poorly in the US. On the other hand, iDrive, ever-increasing electronic 'aids' and such indicate that they're also heavily marketing-driven. There are going to be tough decisions that need to be made. I don't think a SMG-only M5 is on the scale of, say, the Cayenne in terms of a business decision, though.

If the business case is that there are more potential E60M5 customers that want automation vs those who would rather die than not have a pure MT, what are you going to do?


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Salvator said:


> It probably boils down to money, as always... Having one type of transmission instead of two or more means less planning and manufacturing costs, less inventory to maintain, etc. Although I agree that it would be better for them to offer both and see what sells better, the bean counters probably won't let them... They probably view SMG as a decent compromise.


 Yes, it's about the money... but I think at this point in time it's a fair bet that the money they'd have to spend to offer both transmissions would be less than the money they'll lose in sales from people who won't buy an SMG vehicle.

But I fully admit could be wrong. :dunno:


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

I'd like to see what version of the SMG it comes with. Rumor has it that the M5 and M6 will come with an advanced version of the DSG like dual clutch sequential box that offers F1 like shift speed and precision while offering automatic like smoothness between gear shifts. If that's the version of SMG that it comes with (SMG-III) I am willing to LIVE with the fact that it doesn't come with a true manual. 

Then again, I'm not likely to buy either one of these cars so what do I care?


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

The HACK said:


> I'd like to see what version of the SMG it comes with. Rumor has it that the M5 and M6 will come with an advanced version of the DSG like dual clutch sequential box that offers F1 like shift speed and precision while offering automatic like smoothness between gear shifts. If that's the version of SMG that it comes with (SMG-III) I am willing to LIVE with the fact that it doesn't come with a true manual.
> 
> Then again, I'm not likely to buy either one of these cars so what do I care?


I want to try out DSG, and in concept it sounds good. However, I wonder how well the preselection when it preselects 'wrong.' But given it (or BMW's version) works as advertised, I don't see it any more or less compelling than SMGII in it's current form.


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## kylebes1 (Mar 9, 2004)

I do know that it will beat the E55AMG, Audi RS6, and any thing elsee with four doors.


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