# 2013-2014 Diesel Preview



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

Time to start thinking about 2014 as well, no?

* Diesel Car Lineup in the U.S. for 2013 and 2014: Preview and Report*


> _*New Models, New Engines, New Manufacturers for the New Year*_
> 
> With the start of 2013 only a few weeks away the discussion is already shifting to new cars for model year 2014 and more than a few automakers will be launching brand new diesel-powered offerings.
> 2012 was a good year for diesel, ***8230;.
> <SNIP>


Read the full story »


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

_An all-new twin-turbo, 3.0-liter inline-six will also be introduced. Specs are similar to the engine that powers the X5 (and powered the previous generation 335d). It is said to develop 255 hp and 413 pound-feet of torque._

That M Sport diesel wagon looks nice!


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

That Grand Cherokee mileage rendering makes me feel like selling my D to buy it. Impressive numbers will look into it closely!!!!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Bimmer App


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## 01Byte (Jun 22, 2003)

I just don't understand why BMW refuses to offer a manual transmission for any of the diesel cars.


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## vstM3 (Aug 26, 2012)

Or on the X5 or X6 M models!


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

01Byte said:


> I just don't understand why BMW refuses to offer a manual transmission for any of the diesel cars.


Simple, there is no demand thus no supply. It costs millions of dollars to certify each chassis, engine, trans combo for sale in the US. So say there is a demand of even 1000 manual transmission diesels of each model (it would probably be more like 100). How many do you think they would actually sell when they are burdened with an extra $2000 - $20,000 of the cost of certification.

Plus in order to build a drivetrain strong enough to survive clutch dumps with the torque of a diesel, it would also add $thousands to the cost of the vehicle. Yes I know there are manual diesels out there, but that is with engines with way less than 400+ ft/lbs of torque.

Who are driving the X vehicles? Many of them are what we use to call soccer moms. Most (not all) couldn't care less about a manual.

Another example is the 540iT we currently have. I asked BMW, and for the factory sport package equipped V8 model that we have, was told they sold under 100 per year in the US. If there was a manual transmission offering it would have at most been a few dozen per year. So in the case of this car first the V8 disappeared, then the manual transmission disappeared, now the entire 5 series wagon has disappeared from the US lineup. Demand and Supply at work.


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## alpinweiss (Sep 13, 2009)

KeithS said:


> Simple, there is no demand thus no supply. It costs millions of dollars to certify each chassis, engine, trans combo for sale in the US.....


I think you are mostly correct; but let us use Volkswagen as a counter-example. VW offers virtually all of its Diesel models (in the US) with a manual transmission. This includes Passat, Jetta, Jetta Sportwagen, Golf, and Beetle. These days, most of the gasoline-powered VW's are sold with an automatic transmission; but a high percentage of Diesel VW's are sold with the 6-speed manual. Therefore I will hypothesize that the Diesel-buyer may not be the same person as the gasoline-engine buyer.

With the introduction of the 320d, BMW may be appealing to a different market than it did with the 335d. I think there are VW Diesel buyers that would seriously consider buying a BMW Diesel. The BMW and VW Diesels each displace about 2.0 liters, and are both very economical to operate. They are also fun to drive. For me, the lack of a manual transmission is a deal-breaker; I think this also applies to a lot of other potential Diesel customers.

Although the point about the "soccer moms" may be correct for some models, I do not think too many of them will be buying the 320d. Besides, my X3 has the 6-speed MT.

:drive:


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

alpinweiss said:


> Besides, my X3 has the 6-speed MT.
> 
> :drive:


No new X vehicle in the US is available with a manual.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

cssnms said:


> That M Sport diesel wagon looks nice!


It sure does. Hope the F31 and an F11 come to the states with the I6.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

alpinweiss said:


> .... For me, the lack of a manual transmission is a deal-breaker; I think this also applies to a lot of other potential Diesel customers...


If you could afford either car, why would you not choose the more economical and higher performance BMW auto trans diesel over a VW with a manual? :dunno:

I would actually drive the diesel-8spd auto combination before writing it off...


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## alpinweiss (Sep 13, 2009)

KeithS said:


> No new X vehicle in the US is available with a manual.


Unfortunately, you are correct. This makes my E83 X3 essentially unreplaceable. 

I think the only premium SUV currently available in the US with a manual transmission is the Porsche Cayenne.

:drive:


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## alpinweiss (Sep 13, 2009)

d geek said:


> If you could afford either car, why would you not choose the more economical and higher performance BMW auto trans diesel over a VW with a manual? :dunno:


For me, it is a matter of personal preference and driving enjoyment. I like driving a sports sedan, and I want to shift my own gears. I want three pedals.

It is similar to asking why I choose to drive a BMW, rather than a Toyota Camry (or equivalent sedan). The Camry is more practical, and more economical to buy.

:drive:


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## DnA Diesel (Jul 31, 2010)

320d will likely have a stick option. 

As for any of the 35d/40d/50d power plants, not a single one has a manual - can't handle the torque in the available space...the torque would pretty much drop the counter-shaft right out the bottom of the trans casing.

If someone wants to double-clutch and split and float gears like a Class 8 OTR rig, get a 3/4-1ton pick-up with a stick. LOL

Cheers
D.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

DnA Diesel said:


> 320d will likely have a stick option.
> 
> As for any of the 35d/40d/50d power plants, not a single one has a manual - can't handle the torque in the available space...the torque would pretty much drop the counter-shaft right out the bottom of the trans casing.
> 
> ...


Best post of the year! LOL

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Axel61 said:


> That Grand Cherokee mileage rendering makes me feel like selling my D to buy it. Impressive numbers will look into it closely!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Bimmer App


Personally, i'm thinking that mileage number has to be bogus. 39 mpg, no way for an SUV with V6. I'm thinking that 29 mpg is the real number especially for a Jeep product which is heavy. I'm not poopooing Jeep. I like some of their products but that number is waaay inflated. Go compare to other diesel SUVs with V6 for yourselves.

my $0.02


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

I know of 2004 X3 here in Puerto Rico that is a manual, a Veteran bought it in Germany and brought it over. A VW is a VW not a BMW so that said, the VW is cheaper than BMW suffice to say the demand for stick is out weighed by the demand of PEOPLE that do not want or know HOW to drive one!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

DnA Diesel said:


> If someone wants to double-clutch and split and float gears like a Class 8 OTR rig, get a 3/4-1ton pick-up with a stick. LOL
> 
> Cheers
> D.


Some of those you can't even get a stick in. I don't know about GM or Dodge but Ford long since stopped offer a manual transmission in the "smaller" super duties.


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## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

they offer manual for smaller diesels in Europe. driving 3 liter diesel in manual (especially in the city traffic) is just horrible&#8230; at least I prefer not to change the gears every 0.5 sec



01Byte said:


> I just don't understand why BMW refuses to offer a manual transmission for any of the diesel cars.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

kanar200 said:


> they offer manual for smaller diesels in Europe. driving 3 liter diesel in manual (especially in the city traffic) is just horrible&#8230; at least I prefer not to change the gears every 0.5 sec


Way back when I bought my truck new I wanted a manual transmission. Now I wanted it for far different reasons than most here would want one in their BMW. When I told a friend his immediate response was asking me if I ever driven a manual transmission diesel in traffic. I can understand in a truck geared for pulling how people would hate it but are the diesel cars that do have manuals really so bad that you shift all the time in traffic conditions? Last time I drove a manual diesel was in 2004 and was a new TDI Beetle, I don't recall it being bad but I was more concerned with how it drove at freeway speeds at the time.


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## Pasa-d (May 7, 2011)

I drove an Alfa (164?) diesel stick all around Italy for two weeks a few years back. It was fantastic. You almost can't stall a diesel stick, just dump the clutch and go. That experience was one of the things that brought me to the 335d.


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## TTG (Sep 13, 2006)

Love diesel cars, spent ton of time in Europe driving them but I refuse to pay more for diesel than gasoline period..... 

Europeans an others drive diesel cars mainly due to savings and tax breaks.... Unfortunately, we do not get such savings in the US and end up paying more for diesel cars and more for diesel itself.

I am glad they are trying to become more popular but the probability of electric cars catching up is much greater than diesels. US simply missed the whole diesel eara IMO.

I hope one day diesel will be much cheaper than unleaded on our side of the pond


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

TTG said:


> Love diesel cars, spent ton of time in Europe driving them but I refuse to pay more for diesel than gasoline period..... .


Why? There is at least 25% more energy in a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gas. So if your paying say 10 cents more per gallon for diesel than premium, or about 3% more for diesel but getting 25% more energy, I consider that a pretty good deal!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

If I actually cared about fuel economy and overall cost of ownership then I'd buy something that ran on 87 octane gas. I am sure I could easily find something not terrible expensive and made good power. Before the 335d I'd never compared a diesel powered car to a car that required supreme gas.


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## Pasa-d (May 7, 2011)

TTG said:


> Love diesel cars, spent ton of time in Europe driving them but I refuse to pay more for diesel than gasoline period.....
> 
> Europeans an others drive diesel cars mainly due to savings and tax breaks.... Unfortunately, we do not get such savings in the US and end up paying more for diesel cars and more for diesel itself.
> 
> ...


Right now, diesel is about the worst pricing I've seen it; 20 cents more than premium. But if I compare my previous Audi S4, which got about 21 mpg, to my current 335d, which gets more then 28, it works out to 5.6 miles per each dollar of premium purchased for the S4 versus 7.1 miles per each dollar of diesel purchased for the BMW. That's more than 25% savings in actual driving, even at today's horrible diesel pricing. In months past, diesel has often been less than premium, at one point even less than regular, so I'm very happy to drive a diesel, even one tuned for exceptional performance.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

I traded my 335d for an Audi A4 Quattro (ok let them flames roll). I liked my d, but after a couple years found it a bit boring to drive. I really missed a manual tranny so I finally found an A4 with a 6 speed manual and the sport package. No, it does not drive like a BMW but it is a nice car. The wife actually likes it better than the BMW. If BMW does offer the 320d with a manual tranny for the US market, I will definitely test drive one and if it has adequate power, I might buy another oil burner. That said, it still galls me that diesel costs more than premium fuel in the US given that it should cost less to produce it. The difference in price must be due to the road tax or simple supply and demand as it does seem to get more expensive in the winter when the refineries are also producing a lot of fuel oil; i.e. dyed diesel fuel.


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

Audi A7 TDI or Cayenne TDI will be my next car.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Chris go at him LOL he's another MURLANDER LOL. That is so true AUDI has exceptional cars but the lack of stick does influence others to buy them, BMW will not bring a 6 cyl DIESEL with manual tranny, that said, wait for the new 20d and MAYBE you will see the manual tranny!!


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

TTG said:


> Love diesel cars, spent ton of time in Europe driving them but I refuse to pay more for diesel than gasoline period.....
> 
> Europeans an others drive diesel cars mainly due to savings and tax breaks.... Unfortunately, we do not get such savings in the US and end up paying more for diesel cars and more for diesel itself.
> 
> ...


Ya. BMW paid big $$ for access to Toyota hybrid technology. In the US it will only be hybrid and EV. Diesel cars are unlikely. BMW really doesn't want the TDi buyer. Different price point and mind set entirely .

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

Agree that BMW really is not courting the diesel buyer. They pretty well have left that to VW which is very diesel oriented. Mercedes is of course still a major diesel player here and will be even moreso down the road. Both VW and MB have a solid following of oiler fans built over the years. BMW not so much. I still see many old MB and VW diesels on the road here (no salt -- cars last longer) and they just keep running along.:angel:


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Is there anything definitive from BMWNA that the 320d will NOT be offered in the US with a manual tranny? If this is the case, I may well consider an A6 or A7 Diesel if it can be had with a manual tranny. I've had my Audi for about 3 weeks now and I can't believe how much more fun it is driving a manual again. I know that the modern dual clutch trannies are a bit faster but for me there is no better enjoyment than rowing your own gears while driving the backroad twisties. On another note I was able to pass on most of my accessories to another 335d owner from Maryland.


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## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

3 liter clean Diesel which (I believe) will be offered in the US is not available in manual in Europe; manual is available only with the weakest 3 liter 204 PS diesel


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

kanar200 said:


> ... manual is available only with the weakest 3 liter 204 PS diesel


That engine is no longer available on any BMW.

The 3L '30d' engine used in the F10 is available in a manual.

The information shared by BMW insiders indicates that a 320d 8 spd auto will be available in N America this year. I suppose we will hear more at the Detroit Auto Show.


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## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

it referred to AUDI diesels and not BMW (see rmorin49 post), BMW had never offered 3 liter diesel 204 PS in 5 series


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

I was thinking of the engine in the 123d- not a 6 banger, so I was mistaken.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

d geek said:


> That engine is no longer available on any BMW.
> 
> The 3L '30d' engine used in the F10 is available in a manual.
> 
> The information shared by BMW insiders indicates that a 320d 8 spd auto will be available in N America this year. I suppose we will hear more at the Detroit Auto Show.


Surely a 6 speed manual could handle the torque of the 4 pot diesel?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

rmorin49 said:


> Surely a 6 speed manual could handle the torque of the 4 pot diesel?


No doubt, but since they need to pay for certification of each drivetrain, and they're not sure what the take rate of the small diesel will be, they've evidently decided to bring over the 8spd auto first since they've determined that the market will want this more.


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## The Swede (Feb 20, 2011)

d geek said:


> The 3L '30d' engine used in the F10 is available in a manual.


I can confirm that, drive one myself. Fantastic engine that actually works really nice with a manual. Though not possible to get 330d Xdrive and MT, so you have to make a trade-off there :bawling:


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

rmorin49 said:


> Is there anything definitive from BMWNA that the 320d will NOT be offered in the US with a manual tranny? If this is the case, I may well consider an A6 or A7 Diesel if it can be had with a manual tranny. I've had my Audi for about 3 weeks now and I can't believe how much more fun it is driving a manual again. I know that the modern dual clutch trannies are a bit faster but for me there is no better enjoyment than rowing your own gears while driving the backroad twisties. On another note I was able to pass on most of my accessories to another 335d owner from Maryland.


Audi doesn't offer A6 or A7 petrol engines with manuals here, what makes you think they would offer MT with diesels?


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

01Byte said:


> I just don't understand why BMW refuses to offer a manual transmission for any of the diesel cars.


And I just don't understand why anybody would confess that in public. BMW is a very savvy company, and generally manages pretty well to balance their sporty and progressive reputation with their bottom line.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

rejoice!


> BMW also plans to introduce three new diesel models to the U.S. in 2013, in addition to the highly successful BMW X5 35d, which reported a sales increase of 39% last year to over 10,000 vehicles (10,276). The 4-cylinder diesel will premiere in the 3 Series Sedan and Touring and the new 6-cylinder diesel will make its debut in the 5 Series. For the first time ever in the U.S., diesel AWD will be offered in the BMW 5 Series.


link


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

So no more 6 cyl 3 series . In that case my next car in 2-3 yrs will be 320d hopefully coupe


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

bimmerdiesel said:


> So no more 6 cyl 3 series . In that case my next car in 2-3 yrs will be 320d hopefully coupe


The above is only what they are bringing this year. No telling if the 6 cyl will be available in the 3er next year or not.


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## GMMCKEL (Jan 18, 2013)

Having driven in europe, I can't figure why there aren't more diesel 4-banger cars coming out in standard. The mileage [and reliability for most part] is significantly better than auto so that should be one of the biggest starters for it. If I wanted to double clutch something Ild go for something bigger, I mean my VW can do that now -if I abso need it to! 
As for having to worry about constantly having to shift in slow traffic [including Soccer Moms], I can't see you know how to drive stick really! Yes my Jetta is a mid-size but the quality is there! Everything works and the quality's there so what's to look for beside's a brand? With the diesel it's as simple as just using the clutch. It WILL start off and crawl in 2nd!! 
A best example is the new Ford Util Cargo Van Ford brought over this way fm Europe, all the trades used the std there because of it's mileage and what does Ford do? They only offer it in auto! So what did they gain? Not sure but do know it's not selling as well or could be.. for that reason alone!! Do they think no one this side of the Atlantic can drive stick?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

GMMCKEL said:


> ...The mileage [and reliability for most part] is significantly better than auto so that should be one of the biggest starters for it....


Not so-
bmw.com shows better fuel economy for the 8AT vs 6MT


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

The emissions certification is why they do not bring as many sticks -- along with the fact that they just do not sell here. The new diesel Ford Transit van/panel truck is arriving here because of the success M-B/Dodge had with their Sprinter.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

MY14 'd availability


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

My prediction for 2013 Diesel Driver car of the year: 535d


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