# Redline Fluid, Independent BMW Service



## bsm325xi (Mar 24, 2002)

If I wanted to change to Redline, should I use (1) D4 ATF or (2) MTL® Manual Transmission Lubricant? What is the difference between the two (beyond what is on Redline's web site.)

Also, posted this on e46fanatics and got 1 response so I thought I would repost (with revisions) here:

When I shift from 2nd to 3rd gear the gears seem like it is ready to grind (but does not actually grind). It almost feels as if the 3rd gear corners just catch each other as they go in. If I slowly push the shifter 2->3, then this lessens the "catching". 

No other gear shifts feel like this -- 1st, 2nd and 4th can be shifted into quickly without "easing" it in. Shifts from 4th to 3rd do not usually have this feeling so I can shift into 3rd fairly quickly from 4th. Finally, rev matching helps alittle, but not always, and yes I the clutch is all the way in. 

Does anyone else have this problem? Will changing to Redline tranny fluid help? Coming up to 15K inspection soon and have been watching this from day 1 so am deciding if I should make this an issue with the dealer. 

Any good independent BMW service shops in the North Jersey area? 

TIA


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

A Redline Oil distributor is going to be a vendor
at BimmerFest this year.

I'm kind of curious about this stuff myself.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Stick with OEM fluid, it is better


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

I switched mine (for a variety of reasons including a recurring problem on the track that I could never duplicate for a service manager). The redline fluid makes the entire shifting process much smoother. Silky in fact. Every gate is better, double clutching is better - I am only sorry I waited as long as I did.

I disagree with Nate. A lot. Unless someone shows me some evidence that says the fluid will hurt the car, this is a great change that ranks right up there with a properly placed clutch stop.

The HACK put it in too at the last tech session. It would be interesting to hear what he thinks about it.

Oh yeah - if you do put it in, use the automatic transimssion fluid. I think even the e36 manual transmissions used the ATF. I don't know what the difference is, I just know BMW calls for it.


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## gr8330 (Mar 31, 2002)

I changed the trans and diff to Redline, can really tell a difference when trans is cold..shifts a lot better.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Just talked to the folks in the know on this stuff. The real racers (SCCA, ICSCC) use MTL and swear by it.

On the street use D4 ATF.


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## slilley (Feb 12, 2003)

*Redline vs. Mobil-1*

Our cars use ATF -- yep, as in Auto Transmission Fluid -- in their Manual Transmissions. They require the following Red Line fluids:

Transmission: Red Line D4ATF Transmission Fluid
Differential: Red Line 75x90 Gear Oil

Considered using Mobil-1 instead of Red Line. I made the switch over a year ago, because I trust Mobil-1 products and I can find them at the local autoparts store. I couldn't feel a difference between the Red Line and Mobil-1 products, so I'm sticking with Mobil-1 (it's good enough for the engine, right? :

Transmission: Mobil-1 ATF Transmission Fluid
Differential: Mobil-1 75W90 Gear Oil

In either case, make sure you loosen the "Fill Plug" before the "Drain Plug". I replace my fluids every year, since I tend to drive pretty hard. "Lifetime fluids" are fine if your car's lifetime is only going to be 100K miles...'cause that's about all that BMW cares about.

Regards,
Steve


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

rwg said:


> *I switched mine (for a variety of reasons including a recurring problem on the track that I could never duplicate for a service manager). The redline fluid makes the entire shifting process much smoother. Silky in fact. Every gate is better, double clutching is better - I am only sorry I waited as long as I did.
> 
> I disagree with Nate. A lot. Unless someone shows me some evidence that says the fluid will hurt the car, this is a great change that ranks right up there with a properly placed clutch stop.
> 
> ...


Well, since I boiled my 4,000 mile old Redline fluid, I'm not very impressed with it.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like my transmission fluid looking like coffee....


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## GSR13 (Apr 30, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *Well, since I boiled my 4,000 mile old Redline fluid, I'm not very impressed with it.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't like my transmission fluid looking like coffee.... *


I think I would have contacted Redline about this. I have never heard a complaint about Redline Transmission Fluids.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *Well, since I boiled my 4,000 mile old Redline fluid, I'm not very impressed with it.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't like my transmission fluid looking like coffee.... *


Nate, I talked to our race drivers in the club that I knew ran Redline stuff, they swear by it and have never heard of anyone "boiling" it even under race conditions (even in an enduro)

What they think you are seeing is the Redline products cleaning all the gunk (deposits) off your tranny internals (that the factory fluids leaves) which would color the fluid brown.

These are guys who run SCCA, ICSCC, and Speedvision cars (or whatever they are called now) I trust when they say a product holds up they know it.

They change fluids every 12 months.... no failures as a result of fluids.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *Nate, I talked to our race drivers in the club that I knew ran Redline stuff, they swear by it and have never heard of anyone "boiling" it even under race conditions (even in an enduro)
> 
> What they think you are seeing is the Redline products cleaning all the gunk (deposits) off your tranny internals (that the factory fluids leaves) which would color the fluid brown.
> 
> ...


You mean a burning smell when the incident happend, horrible shift feel, and fluid that smells burnt is just deposits?

I don't think so. The damn fluid boiled, no doubt about it.

I don't care what they say, it boiled in my car with me driving it....


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

GSR13 said:


> *I think I would have contacted Redline about this. I have never heard a complaint about Redline Transmission Fluids. *


My mechanic took a large sample and was 'supposed' to talk to them about it...


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *Well, since I boiled my 4,000 mile old Redline fluid, I'm not very impressed with it.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't like my transmission fluid looking like coffee.... *


Interesting that you say that. My oem fluid came out that way - maybe not as bad as yours, but dark brown and way more viscous than it should have been. It was probably causing my problems. I swear by redline, but if I boiled it, I might feel the same way you do.


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## 2001E46 (Nov 12, 2002)

I also switched from the OEM tranny fluid to Redline D4 ATF. I was really surprised when I drained the stock fluid. It was VERY thin and VERY black. It looked like very dirty water. This was after about 15,000 miles. Not sure if it's supposed to be looking like that.

I will drain and fill the Redline fluid again pretty soon, it will be interesting to see what it looks like after 5,000 miles.


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## Gobucs (Feb 5, 2003)

*DIY?*

Anybody have a picture of the plugs? Are there plugs for the tranny and differencial?


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## Sunridge (Jan 25, 2002)

how long are u suppose to change the tranny oil I have around 20k KM on my car .. sometimes it doesn't goto 2nd gear smoothly when I downshift.

And also will it void warranty if I use other brands ? 

thx


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## pt00323i (Jun 5, 2002)

Since we are on the subject, 

what is the torque spec. for drain and fill plugs, Diff and Tranny.

thanks


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

pt00323i said:


> *Since we are on the subject,
> 
> what is the torque spec. for drain and fill plugs, Diff and Tranny.
> 
> thanks *


I think the torque spec is 52 ft-lbs. But I torqued to that amount and it started leaking. So I tightened the bolt back to where the indicator gunk lined up. It stopped leaking. Then I traded the car in. The washer might be compressible. I didn't use a new one, so it might have been a problem. And while it took a significant additional effort (say maybe, 10 ft-lbs?) to get the bolt to move, once it moved, there was no additional resistance to put it to the spot I chose.

Sunridge, the fluids are supposedly "lifetime" and you will void your warranty for the transmission if you switch it (if I understand correctly).


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

rwg said:


> *
> Sunridge, the fluids are supposedly "lifetime" and you will void your warranty for the transmission if you switch it (if I understand correctly). *


I don't think it voids the warranty.

If you do change it, you are supposed to use BMW Lifetime MTL...


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## pt00323i (Jun 5, 2002)

Just looked at the manual, it didn't even say how much and what type.

so it is D4 ATF, and how many quarts do I need for tranny.

as for Diff, how many quarts?

thanks


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

bsm325xi said:


> *When I shift from 2nd to 3rd gear the gears seem like it is ready to grind (but does not actually grind). It almost feels as if the 3rd gear corners just catch each other as they go in. If I slowly push the shifter 2->3, then this lessens the "catching". *


i can't tell from your description, but if it doesn't actually grind you may not have a problem. however my transmission was replaced under warranty due to grinding 2nd-to-3rd shifts. bottom line is, get it checked out if you're not sure.


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## dakarm3 (Feb 18, 2003)

Being the vendor that Jon Shafer mentioned at the top of this thread, I thought I'd speak up.

Red Line MTL is better suited for cars in which the transmission would be hotter than in normal use. Although the name suggests that if you have a manual transmission, that is not the truth. Most BMW's, manual and automatic, should run D4 ATF.

Red Line D4 ATF is suited better to street cars where the temperatures may be cooler [read: D4 ATF gives you more protection in all weather conditions.]. Simply put, the D4 ATF is a more viscous oil than the MTL.

I personally use Red Line D4 ATF in my 1995 BMW M3, and can vouch for how well it works.

Let me know if you have any other questions or if you'd like to purchase Red Line oil from me...coughCHEAPcough...


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## bsm325xi (Mar 24, 2002)

I just called an independant service shop and a BMW dealer's service department. 

The service shop said that for 2002 325xi's you cannot change the fluid since there is no way to fill the transmission.

The dealer's service shop said that if they did change the fluid, it would be with BMW's since it is the "same" as Redline's. Also, they said that they would not drain and fill with non-BMW fluid. Finally, they made some comment about it voiding the warranty, but I do not think that would be true if the transmission fluid can be changed.

Any comments on the validity of these statements? Any any good independant BMW service shops in the Northern NJ area?


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## bsm325xi (Mar 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Redline Fluid, Independent BMW Service*



ride365 said:


> *i can't tell from your description, but if it doesn't actually grind you may not have a problem. however my transmission was replaced under warranty due to grinding 2nd-to-3rd shifts. bottom line is, get it checked out if you're not sure. *


The gears do not grind, just seems like if I push it in fast it might do so because it kind of "clicks" as if gear corners just tapped each other on the way in. If I push it in 2 ->3 slow it usually goes in fine. Still, that makes for slow shift and why only 2->3 and not any other gear combination? (note this is not a "cold" transmission problem)

I did have the dealer check it out a while back -- they said it was normal. Just drove a friend's car and the shift from 2->3 also seemed similiar, but still am trying to figure out if this is a problem or not.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

dakarm3 said:


> *Simply put, the D4 ATF is a more viscous oil than the MTL.*


I know it's supposed to be but I've poured them side by side and they seem identical to me. :dunno:

Nate is the only person I've heard of boiling Redline products..


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

bsm325xi said:


> *I just called an independant service shop and a BMW dealer's service department.
> 
> The service shop said that for 2002 325xi's you cannot change the fluid since there is no way to fill the transmission.
> 
> ...


Dunno about the warranty issues... But all you need to fill the tranny is a $5 STA-LUBE pump. The fill plug is on the side of the transmission and is pretty easily accessed.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Has anyone else noticed that the slick shifting, silky smooth feel you get with Redline seems to go away pretty quickly?

I've filled with redline three times, and it's never remained as good as new for long.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

bsm325xi said:


> *I just called an independant service shop and a BMW dealer's service department.
> 
> The service shop said that for 2002 325xi's you cannot change the fluid since there is no way to fill the transmission.
> 
> ...


In addition to what Nick said, it's also obvious that this shop doesn't know what they are talking about b/c their comment about them being "the same." They are not. Nowhere close, as a matter of fact.


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## Gobucs (Feb 5, 2003)

*DIY*

Someone somewhere has to have a DIY with pictures for us, so we can see where the tranny plugs are.

If you know where a DIY is located, please post it.

Thanks


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

*Re: DIY*



Gobucs said:


> *Someone somewhere has to have a DIY with pictures for us, so we can see where the tranny plugs are.
> 
> If you know where a DIY is located, please post it.
> 
> Thanks *


:google:

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/e36/drivetrain/e36_change_manual_transmission_fluid.html


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *Has anyone else noticed that the slick shifting, silky smooth feel you get with Redline seems to go away pretty quickly?
> 
> I've filled with redline three times, and it's never remained as good as new for long. *


Redline gives you slick shifting? Damn, I gotta check with Chris Rappas from XP engineering and make sure he didn't give me a bottle of re-badged BMW OEM fluid. :yikes:

I've felt NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever between the Redline fluid and BMW fluid. I do plan on sending a sample to Blackstone labs after a few thousand miles for comparison purposes though.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

Interesting. Difference for me was night and day. This wasn't an active imagination difference either. I didn't really have it long enough to find out if the silky smooth feel went away though.


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## JonM (Jan 28, 2002)

Changing fluids will not correct 2-3 or 4-5 notchiness.

Changing fluids may help some, but you are fixing the symptom and not the root cause.

The bushing at the front of your shifter carrier is worn or has been heat cycled too often or was improperly molded to begin with. You should replace the shifter carrier with a Ron Stygar. Ron's are hand reamed, delrin (impervious to heat and very hard) and have zero (_zero_) free play or slop. The stock bushing is soft and oversized. UUC tried to fix this problem and once again in typical UUC fashion failed miseably with their oval slop-slop bushings.

You want the "chop house" model. Ron sells them for Z3s, insalled with a brand new carrier for about $40 or $50. I suspect E46 prices are similar.










Andy and I recommend replacing with OEM fluids in all cases but ATE Super Blue.


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## JonM (Jan 28, 2002)

One more thing...

Ron gives you a new b/tchclip too. You have to install from below. Difficult on S54 cars, but doable.


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## GSR13 (Apr 30, 2002)

JonM said:


> *Changing fluids will not correct 2-3 or 4-5 notchiness.
> 
> The stock bushing is soft and oversized. UUC tried to fix this problem and once again in typical UUC fashion failed miseably with their oval slop-slop bushings.
> 
> Andy and I recommend replacing with OEM fluids in all cases but ATE Super Blue. *


I am not trying to start a debate, but when you say this about UUC, what exactly do you mean? I have heard great things about UUC and I am about to install a SSK from them. Is there some problem I should be on the lookout for?

Also, when you say, "Andy and I recommend replacing with OEM fluids in all cases but ATE Super Blue", what exactly does that mean? Are you saying to replace OEM Fluids with Super Blue or to use OEM Fluids?


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## JonM (Jan 28, 2002)

GSR13 said:


> *I am not trying to start a debate, but when you say this about UUC, what exactly do you mean? I have heard great things about UUC and I am about to install a SSK from them. Is there some problem I should be on the lookout for?*


These:








Are useless. They won't cause any damage, but they won't fix much either. It looks like they once again copied Ron's design and are selling round ones now for some models. No idea if they are 2-piece or 1 though. Here is the original review.



> *Also, when you say, "Andy and I recommend replacing with OEM fluids in all cases but ATE Super Blue", what exactly does that mean? Are you saying to replace OEM Fluids with Super Blue or to use OEM Fluids? *


Ummm, no. We use OEM motor oil, OEM diff oil, OEM trans fluid. We use Superblue brake fluid instead of OEM. You can use whatever fluids you want.


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