# BMW Electric



## HotGrbg (Apr 23, 2021)

__





BMW hits 1 million EV sales, targets 2 million fully electric sales by 2025 | Reuters.com


FILE PHOTO: A logo of German luxury carmaker BMW is seen in Munich, Germany, March 20, 2019. REUTERS/Michael Dalder/File Photo




mobile.reuters.com





The push is real. The infrastructure may not be though…
I wonder how forums will continue once the N52s, M54s and like finally go the way of the dinosaur. Do you think inventive people and gracious techs will continue to perpetuate the knowledge sharing or is the old ICE forums slowly dying? BMW is already limiting the information on TIS now concerning EV, I’m curious as to sketchy Russian YouTube videos aside how advice and information on issues and repairs will be shared. With each new engine information slowly trickles out and people learn the fixes and issues and the DIY aspects but this is a wild new frontier with a lot of danger involved. Replacing an SME as a random example is vastly different than a valve cover gasket. I guess maybe that techs will contribute but forums have a way of chasing off techs though.
Thoughts?


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

First, join the Right to Repair fight. EFF.org

Second, see below and know that < 33% “of adults in the US are able to draw accurate conclusions from an 8 X 4 data table and concisely express them.” (James Agresti, JustFActs)



Autoputzer said:


> I was in a continuing education class with the instructor being a former Army officer with a D.Ed. Another student and I disagreed on the solution to a math (probability) problem. The D.Ed. instructor said "You could both be right." No! That's not how math works. It two answers are right, then both answers are the same. There's a problem in our society that everybody deserves to be right, nobody's 100% right, nobody's 100% wrong, etc.
> 
> There's a TV ad for Southern New Hampshire University. In the monolog, the university president says talent is distributed evenly, but opportunity isn't." ... another WTF! Not everybody has an IQ of 100.
> 
> ...


*quite coincidentally*








European activists fight for right to repair electronics


At a table scattered with tools and wires, volunteer repairers sit across from the owners of an assortment of inoperable electronics. The volunteers at a free "repair cafe" in Copenhagen disassemble and diagnose gadgets while the customers watch, each doing their part for the environment - one...




techxplore.com




”Earlier this year, the EU introduced new rules requiring manufacturers to ensure spare parts are available for refrigerators, washers, hairdryers and TVs for up to 10 years. New appliances also will have to come with repair manuals and be made in such a way that they can be dismantled using conventional tools.”

My refrigerator was purchased in 2000 by my builder PO and seems to be fine. I don’t know how old my DW is but I bought it for $25 and have made three major repairs and pray that I am capable of repairing it for a long time to come. Gas stove-oven is recent and I have already replaced the igniter and with a spare tucked away. Only our Electrolux laundry machine is probably not repairable but selected for EU reliability and longevity and economy.

My water conditioner softener is a home job by my builder PO, and I have rebuilt it once. I expect it to be trouble free for another 30 years.


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## XChallengeRdr (Jul 15, 2020)

If my antique Jag is any example, forums will continue as people search for information on part, repairs and, more importantly, work arounds as the stock of OEM parts is depleted. I have a 20 year old BMW motorcycle with a forum dedicated to just that model and my fifteen year old orphan X Challenge has a a couple of threads on ADV Rider, one that is 23K posts long. So, in short, I think there will always be "forums" for people wanting to fix, discuss and show off cars old and new. Right to Repair laws and DRM may have more influence on how active those forums will be than the decline of ICE. There has been some positive legislation of late, but that fight is in its infancy. Just my .02


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Europe's different than the US:

They have almost no oil or natural gas of their own. They have to buy it from bad people, and hope those bad people don't cut them off at some point in the future.

They pay about $6/gallon for gasoline.

They have much larger population density, so the typical car trips are shorter.

They have an extensive passenger rail system (made possible by $6/gallon gasoline and high population densities).

EV's fail at long distance private car travel due to relatively short range and especially due to long recharging times. Long distance passenger car travel is why I buy expensive BMW's. If they're not good for that, I don't need a BMW. I suspect the future profile of BMW customers will be where a household will have one electric car primarily for local travel, and one gasoline car suitable for long distance travel.

One of my Putzer relatives has done exceptionally well in life. His Tesla S gets him from his city house to his beach house (200 miles), where it gets recharged before trip back to the city. His family has clothes, groceries, toys, etc. at the beach house, so they don't have to carry much back and forth in the S. They have some gas-guzzling SUV for longer road trips. His wealth has made him adopt EV's a lot sooner than the rest of us. Not everybody is fortunate to have their beach house 200 miles or less from their city house.

Green, synthetic fuels will keep the nasty ole internal combustion engine around longer than anybody expected. The catch is that we'll need a cheap, unlimited about of green electricity to make that green, synthetic fuel.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

So much for North Sea Oil.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Doug Huffman said:


> So much for North Sea Oil.


They burned most of it up. The UK was energy independent for decades, the operative term being "was." Wiki says there's 1.7B to 3.3B barrels left there. That would last them three to six years. Russian and Middle Eastern oil is also cheaper.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Frau Putzer's three-year, eight-month-old, 32k-mile X3 has only been on one road trip, about 800 miles. Other than moving from Virginia to Florida and back, Frau Putzer's only taken three road trips without me along. Before marriage, she'd fly to a destination 300 miles away. If she was single and making all of her own decisions, she'd be a candidate for an electric car. She saw a BMW i3 in a parking lot and said she might like one of those as her next car. I mansplained to her that we'd have to stop overnight for recharging when we drove it home from BMW of Bubbaville (95 miles away). That was the end of any chance of her getting an i3.


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## moRider (Feb 28, 2012)

In California, it's not terribly difficult to own _just _EVs (for both commuting and longer road trips). The charging infrastructure is excellent - especially for Teslas. I have yet to visit an EV forum, but curious about what types of topics are discussed. Probably something like: can you believe those idiots paying $5.50/gal for gas? (and yes, that's how much I paid on my recent 600-mile roadtrip).

I'm mostly convinced that my wife will pivot to an EV after her X3 is ready to retire. I plan to hold on to ICE for a bit longer.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

moRider said:


> In California, it's not terribly difficult to own _just _EVs (for both commuting and longer road trips). The charging infrastructure is excellent - especially for Teslas. I have yet to visit an EV forum, but curious about what types of topics are discussed. Probably something like: can you believe those idiots paying $5.50 for gas? (and yes, that's how much I paid on my recent 600-mile roadtrip).
> 
> I'm mostly convinced that my wife will pivot to an EV after her X3 is ready to retire. I plan to hold on to ICE for a bit longer.


Tesla supercharger stations can add 200 miles of range in about 15 minutes. Those fast charges degrade the batteries. But, first you have to find a Tesla supercharger station and then possibly wait in line. There's about a half-dozen of them at a gas station near me. I've never seen all of the chargers being used at once, but this is Bubbaville Beach, not California.

Refueling a four-cylinder BMW takes about two minutes and is good for 500 miles of highway driving.

91 AKI cost me about $3.50/gallon now. Our BMW's have got between 25 and 26 MPG since new. 100k miles of gasoline cost about what it would to replace a Tesla's batteries. My next BMW will be a 330i, and it will get about 30 MPG overall and about 40 MPG on a road trip.


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

They are not exactly shy about explaining the ultimate goal of the worldwide building back better scam, of which EV is but a small part: You will own nothing and will be happy. I bet somebody will own everything and will be even happier.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

It is a good time to be old. Soon it will be a good day to die, and leave the world to the ZOOMERS. I hope to be able to give my diesel BMW to my kid, even my grandkid.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

Autoputzer said:


> 91 AKI cost me about $3.50/gallon now. Our BMW's have got between 25 and 26 MPG since new. 100k miles of gasoline cost about what it would to replace a Tesla's batteries. My next BMW will be a 330i, and it will get about 30 MPG overall and about 40 MPG on a road trip.


The challenge is future oil, and by proxy, gas prices. Oil is expected to be over $150/b by the end of the decade. And that is with EV encroachment to reduce demand.

$10/g for premium would give a lot of BMW drivers heartburn...

But thankfully the existing gas cars aren’t going anywhere soon. BMW will be making them easily until 2030 and maybe longer. So you are looking at 2045 or later before you can start to sunset ICE fully for those who want it.

I expect a niche crew will keep it around for even longer in bespoke cars.



Autoputzer said:


> Frau Putzer's three-year, eight-month-old, 32k-mile X3 has only been on one road trip, about 800 miles. Other than moving from Virginia to Florida and back, Frau Putzer's only taken three road trips without me along. Before marriage, she'd fly to a destination 300 miles away. If she was single and making all of her own decisions, she'd be a candidate for an electric car. She saw a BMW i3 in a parking lot and said she might like one of those as her next car. I mansplained to her that we'd have to stop overnight for recharging when we drove it home from BMW of Bubbaville (95 miles away). That was the end of any chance of her getting an i3.


You sound delightful as a partner. I am not sure if your spouse is trapped or not 😬😳🥴


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

LogicalApex said:


> You sound delightful as a partner. I am not sure if your spouse is trapped or not 😬😳🥴


Her single, semi-functional friends are always pestering her to set them up with my single, highly-functional, STEM friends. Her answer is always the same: "Oh, Hell no. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Just look what's happened to me."


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## moRider (Feb 28, 2012)

It may be time to start a new thread to vent about our significant others 😜


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## XChallengeRdr (Jul 15, 2020)

moRider said:


> It may be time to start a new thread to vent about our significant others 😜


And all the time I thought the original thread was about knowledge sharing and the future of forums considering the change of tech.


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## HotGrbg (Apr 23, 2021)

moRider said:


> It may be time to start a new thread to vent about our significant others 😜


I’ll be a significant contributer to that thread 😆. I’m partly kidding but not. I do realize however that for all the shit she does that drives me crazy I’m sure there’s a huge list in her head as well that she is too wonderful to me to mention.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

Autoputzer said:


> Her single, semi-functional friends are always pestering her to set them up with my single, highly-functional, STEM friends. Her answer is always the same: "Oh, Hell no. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Just look what's happened to me."


I am STEM as well. But I wouldn’t see my wife as anything less than a full partner. Meaning we can both shoot out ideas and rationally reach a point together.

Otherwise, why would I have married her? 

But I will stop pulling us off topic!


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Every company is jumping on board as they want to keep up with others. 
But there are some serious issues to resolve:
Europe:
1. It is easier to push legislation that mandates things. 
2. Someone mentioned gas $6. Sorry, it is $7.50 to $10, depending on the country. Add to that decaying limestone in Paris from excessive NOx in the air, and you have public relations nightmare. 
3. True, public transportation is extremely well developed and for example considering how extensive subway is in Paris or Barcelona, not sure who wants to use car. 

US:
1. Constitution is going to make hard to pass mandates to switch. It has to be economical reasons. 
2. Until we can drive 400 miles on batteries and “fill” in 15min, it won’t be mainstream. 
3. People commute in US longer. I just had a friend buying Nissan EV (Leaf I guess) and his commute from Northern suburbs in Chicago to UIC campus looked more like adventure than commute. 

Big issues:
1. There are too many fires related to batteries for my liking. 
2. Decaying batteries are going to be a problem. 
3. Electric network will be an issue. 


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## XChallengeRdr (Jul 15, 2020)

I suspect the change to EV will be generational. The argument will shift from "it won't work because (it's not what we're used to)" to "how do we make it work better." Young people in the habit plugging in their phone at night will not think twice about plugging in their car, if they even own a car rather than being members of a subscription fleet. Range anxiety is mostly BS. The BTS puts the average daily travel in the US at 40 miles. Sure, I can site exceptions to that from my own experience. All of my customers have outside salespeople and small truck fleets that often travel more than forty miles a day, but those are exceptions. Since the pandemic started the salespeople are now all working via zoom and being a little more productive than they were on the road. I guess that's a positive change.

I think about my nephew. He's fluent in Spanish and has a master's degree in mathematics. He and his friends don't hesitate to travel the world. The other day he asked me to explain what spark plugs do. With 180k on his Hyundai, a mechanic recommended that he change them. Cars and bikes don't mean the same to him as they did to me at his age. 

I've read too much Smil and the like to kid myself into thinking that the conversion from fossil fuels will be easy or quick. Turn off the tap and most of the population will starve in few years. But how much has the EROI declined in the past 100 years? The last time I did the math, Germany had enough domestic coal reserves to go 1900 years at their current burn rate. Agreed, it's too expensive to mine in the current global economy, but the energy is there. As an aside, EVs can run on coal, ICE cannot. We won't run out of energy, but the economics of how we use it will change, and probably drastically. 

Anyway, old guys like me will need to die off and let a new generation of people who are not locked into our way of thinking to solve these problems. The problem of persistent pollution will be a bigger driver for them than us. Wish I could hang around and see how they solve it.

m


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

WW-II Germany fueled ICE with coal products.

Somebody will have to pay for upgrading infrastructure to support EV and I won’t be around. Zoomers are gonna have to kiss-up to their technocrat elites.

An evaluation of a new technology infrastructure is of the integrated (from dirt to exhaust) pollution committed.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

XChallengeRdr said:


> I suspect the change to EV will be generational. The argument will shift from "it won't work because (it's not what we're used to)" to "how do we make it work better." Young people in the habit plugging in their phone at night will not think twice about plugging in their car, if they even own a car rather than being members of a subscription fleet. Range anxiety is mostly BS. The BTS puts the average daily travel in the US at 40 miles. Sure, I can site exceptions to that from my own experience. All of my customers have outside salespeople and small truck fleets that often travel more than forty miles a day, but those are exceptions. Since the pandemic started the salespeople are now all working via zoom and being a little more productive than they were on the road. I guess that's a positive change.
> 
> I think about my nephew. He's fluent in Spanish and has a master's degree in mathematics. He and his friends don't hesitate to travel the world. The other day he asked me to explain what spark plugs do. With 180k on his Hyundai, a mechanic recommended that he change them. Cars and bikes don't mean the same to him as they did to me at his age.
> 
> ...


You are making a lot of assumptions. 
1. We are already in “how to make it better “ time. What is going to happen is that hybrids will be mid term solution. Toyota Sienna now comes only as hybrid. M3 is mild hybrid. 
2. Advance degrees are not indicative of knowledge about certain things. I have friend who can dismantle nuclear warhead, was inspector during Nunn-Lugar program, observing Russian dismantling of nuclear weapons, yet show him master cylinder and he would ask you what is that. We all have different interests and hobbies. I have PhD, travel around the world all the time but can change pads on axle between two track sessions, alone. And I do road trips all the time, I go to ski in the morning and come back in the evening. 4.5hrs round trip driving for 5-6hrs of skiing. So, EV cannot work for me as is now. And when was the last time you have been on the road? This summer I struggled booking hotel in Lincoln, NE, bcs. everything on I80 was booked. We were on the road to Chicago, and it was like city traffic on I80. So, you have to make EV’s viable to those people. 
3. Germany, as many European countries has a lot of coal. But it is done! In EU you get slapped by huge tax if you selling electricity generated by coal. Even Chinese that are trying to arm twist smaller countries into buying their coal generators, cannot do it. GE pulled out of huge power plant project in Bosnia just few months ago. They basically stated that they are out of that business. Chinese tried to swoop in, but EU basically said whatever is generated by coal, it will be taxed at ridiculous rates. Considering hydro potential there, it won’t be an issue, but for example in Croatia that doesn’t have such hydro potential, they are rethinking closing nuclear power plant that they share with Slovenia. So, eventually, people will come around and grudgingly go with nuclear. France is already investing in 4 new nuclear generators. Germany will to. Just wait when Russians do another dumb thing. 


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Here's power consumption/generation vs. time of day, and season for New England. A lot of EV charging can be done from maybe 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. without stressing the power grid. Peak demand (and therefore peak capacity, 4 p.m. in July) is twice that of minimum demand (4 a.m. in October).












It's not just the M3 that's received a mild-hybrid upgrade. BMW's gradually doing that to all the gasoline six-cylinder engines in the various platforms. Upgrading the six-cylinder cars to mild-hybrids makes more environmental and economic sense than upgrading the four-cylinder cars.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

Autoputzer said:


> Here's power consumption/generation vs. time of day, and season for New England. A lot of EV charging can be done from maybe 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. without stressing the power grid. Peak demand (and therefore peak capacity, 4 p.m. in July) is twice that of minimum demand (4 a.m. in October).


There is actually an inverted problem for power generation that increased EV adoption can really help solve in many ways. The primary problem is more and more large usage commercial customers are shifting to solar generation for some or all of their electrical use. Power plant have largely been built around peak demand which is heavily built for these large commercial customers like factories, large retail buildings, and office buildings. With those removed you start to have too much generation capacity on board (and the costs of maintaining that will force electricity rates up).

Another problem that EVs can solve in the future, but don’t now, is grid stabilization. Large banks of plugged in EVs can be used to offset spikes in electrical demand to minimize brownouts and blackouts by acting as reserve power banks. This will require a much smarter grid than we have currently to pull off, but it is coming.

People talk about the “problems” of the transition to EVs as if it is a hard flip of a switch at some mythical point. We’ll shift and adapt a lot along the way as things march down the path that they are marching down. There is a lot of good that will come of it.

Even if we don’t crack the charge time threshold compared to gas refueling timing. There could be profound positive impacts on the wider economy and national landscape. With the introduction of the interstate system and the speed of gas refueling you have whole swatches of the country that have no tourism revenue. Prior to all of that people would drive and then stop in towns and visit them along their long road trips. If you need to “recharge” for 20 minutes (which is super healthy thing to do anyway — getting out and stretching) and stop into a small town to visit and buy some things along the way that wouldn’t be a bad thing.


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

A typical 2MW wind turbine run through its design life span will never generate enough power to substitute the energy extracted from hydrocarbons for its manufacturing: 260 tons of steel (300 tons of iron ore) using 170 tons of coal. That's not counting mining itself, transportation and recycling.

The green push and EV by extension is purely ideologically driven.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Speaking of "right to repair"...folks following John Deere and their BS?

If you think BMWs are locked down, you aint seen NOTHING.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Yes, I follow the farmers’ problems.

Merry Christmas!


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

For folks that arent aware, JD seems to lock down access to force owners to use JD techs. So the DME trips an error- and you, as the owner fix the error- unfortunately, the tractor will not start until a licensed JD tech 'unlocks' the DME and resets the lock out. (just an illustration).

It has become so onerous, that finally federal pols seem like they are taking action. Rs and Ds.

Growing up, I realized that farmers are- at a base skill level- mechanics at heart. Day in day out, you life is spent fixing crap. And if you had to pay 'car dealer prices' for your farm equipment, well, that was just a non-starter. Until JD decided to pull this carp.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

iklo said:


> A typical 2MW wind turbine run through its design life span will never generate enough power to substitute the energy extracted from hydrocarbons for its manufacturing: 260 tons of steel (300 tons of iron ore) using 170 tons of coal. That's not counting mining itself, transportation and recycling.
> 
> The green push and EV by extension is purely ideologically driven.


It is driven by the desire to decouple the fuel source from the mode of transportation. An electric vehicle can be powered by a variety of sources and be cleaned up over time. Unlike an ICE car.

I have a 530e largely due to being a city dweller with no guarantee on my access to charging. I feel that PHEVs are the perfect transitional vehicles for cities as we increasingly shift toward EVs. Allows a much smoother ramp up to us adding charging infrastructure and figuring out solutions to the complex problems of how to design and build this infrastructure in cities. As PHEVs get toward 50-100 miles per charge you’ll cover the entire of 80% of the US.

That being said, I’m moving to a new home next year (under construction now) that I will be converting to solar. That will immediately shift the electrical usage of my car to 100% green and my next car will be a BEV with 100% clean energy as a result…

ICE has only 1 fuel source options. EVs have an infinite number that will see improvements for decades…


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

LogicalApex said:


> It is driven by the desire to decouple the fuel source from the mode of transportation. An electric vehicle can be powered by a variety of sources and be cleaned up over time. Unlike an ICE car.
> 
> ICE has only 1 fuel source options. EVs have an infinite number that will see improvements for decades…


The WSJ had a piece recently where they said that if the entire world energy production was changed to nuclear, the amount of nuclear waste generated per person over the person lifespan would be around 10 grams. 

Of course if this were allowed to happen, nothing would be left of the whole scam of climate change and the slew progressive causes that innumerable herds are feeding on.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

ard said:


> For folks that arent aware, JD seems to lock down access to force owners to use JD techs. So the DME trips an error- and you, as the owner fix the error- unfortunately, the tractor will not start until a licensed JD tech 'unlocks' the DME and resets the lock out. (just an illustration).
> 
> It has become so onerous, that finally federal pols seem like they are taking action. Rs and Ds.
> 
> Growing up, I realized that farmers are- at a base skill level- mechanics at heart. Day in day out, you life is spent fixing crap. And if you had to pay 'car dealer prices' for your farm equipment, well, that was just a non-starter. Until JD decided to pull this carp.


I have a friend in IA state legislature. People didn’t see anything. JD are such crooks it is recipe for bailout in 10 years. 


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> The WSJ had a piece recently where they said that if the entire world energy production was changed to nuclear, the amount of nuclear waste generated per person over the person lifespan would be around 10 grams.
> 
> Of course if this were allowed to happen, nothing would be left of the whole scam of climate change and the slew progressive causes that innumerable herds are feeding on.


I have that conversation with people here. 
“Look, Pikes Peak doesn’t have snow in December, winters are warmer, etc. .”
Me: I know, climate change. 
Other person: nooo. That is a scam. It’s just that things changed. 


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## HotGrbg (Apr 23, 2021)

Technically we are in an ice age. It’s defined as any geologic period that thick ice sheets cover vast areas of land. Over earths history the planet has gone through many cooling and warming cycles. There were no humans to record the rate at which ice melted or the temperatures or sea levels rose only was pulled from ice cores or sea bottom samples give clues to previous examples. While I don’t doubt climate change and human activity contributing to the effects I do suspect much is manufactured information or scare tactics with money at the core of the endeavor.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

HotGrbg said:


> Technically we are in an ice age. It’s defined as any geologic period that thick ice sheets cover vast areas of land. Over earths history the planet has gone through many cooling and warming cycles. There were no humans to record the rate at which ice melted or the temperatures or sea levels rose only was pulled from ice cores or sea bottom samples give clues to previous examples. While I don’t doubt climate change and human activity contributing to the effects I do suspect much is manufactured information or scare tactics with money at the core of the endeavor.


It is actually not that hard to determine CO2 levels at each climate change throughout history, and draw correlation. 
We live in time of second day delivery. People want stuff NOW, and they expect things to happen suddenly. 
That is not how nature works. It works more along lines of how Hemingway explained bankruptcy: “gradually, then suddenly.” 


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

edycol said:


> I have that conversation with people here.
> “Look, Pikes Peak doesn’t have snow in December, winters are warmer, etc. .”
> Me: I know, climate change.
> Other person: nooo. That is a scam. It’s just that things changed.
> ...


*Newsweek 1975: “Global Cooling is Coming!*


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> *Newsweek 1975: “Global Cooling is Coming!*
> View attachment 1047111


Science is search of new knowledge. 
Scientists were wrong about cancer treatment in 70’s. But you don’t hear people saying: well, you have been wrong then, so I refuse treatment. 
Science is not 2nd day delivery. 


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

edycol said:


> Science is search of new knowledge.
> Scientists were wrong about cancer treatment in 70’s. But you don’t hear people saying: well, you have been wrong then, so I refuse treatment.
> Science is not 2nd day delivery


Are four jabs better than three? Discuss.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> Are four jabs better than three? Discuss.


What is jab? New EV? I prefer having four. 


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

We're eventually moving to eastern Tennessee. The electricity there comes from TVA, and it's about 60% carbon-free, from nuclear, hydro-electric, solar, and wind. That's almost three-times the national average, due to topography and almost 90 years of gooberment subsidies.

I was continuously indoctrinated in "LEAN Six Sigma" (L6S) at work. L6S can be summed up as "large gains in efficiency can be accomplished by summing up many small gains in efficiency." There are five inefficiencies identified by L6S:: transportation, inventory, retooling, inspection, and rework. I'd add packaging as a sixth inefficiency. These inefficiencies add no value to the end product, but each one of them can be means of minimizing at least one of the other inefficiencies. The trick is to balance these inefficiencies to achieve the optimal total efficiency.

My L6S brainwashing makes me hate overnight and second-day deliveries. It's the result of other inefficiencies. If there's sufficient inventory and efficient retooling, rapid delivery wouldn't be necessary. Getting OE parts for a twelve-year-old M3 often required air-freight-ing parts from Germany., Although expensive, it was cheaper than my loaner cars. Unfortunately, my consumer-spec'ed laptop computers get air-freight-ed in from China.

L6S makes me "power buy" and inventory consumables when they're on sale. Yesterday, I opened my last two-gallon jug of laundry detergent that I bought in March 2020. I bought five of them on sale. My use of soap and detergent went down considerably during the lockdown-smackdown. Eeew.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

HotGrbg said:


> Technically we are in an ice age. It’s defined as any geologic period that thick ice sheets cover vast areas of land. Over earths history the planet has gone through many cooling and warming cycles. There were no humans to record the rate at which ice melted or the temperatures or sea levels rose only was pulled from ice cores or sea bottom samples give clues to previous examples. While I don’t doubt climate change and human activity contributing to the effects I do suspect much is manufactured information or scare tactics with money at the core of the endeavor.


And by looking at the climate cycles, we SHOULD be re-entering a glacial event, not rapidly escaping one. Humans can currently measure CO2 going back several hundred thousand years (800,000 IIRC), if not more, looking at ice cores, and correlate temperature based not only on tree ring data, but also preserved pollen in sediment (trees are a fantastic proxy for temperature), oxygen del-18 isotopes of both ocean foraminifera fossils and the ice caps themselves. Wouldn't ya know it, temperature and CO2 fluctuations correlate perfectly?

Moving back to electric: I'm biased because I 100% hate electrical apparati. My newest home computer was made in 2008. Troubleshooting/repairing increasingly electrified machines quickly gets to the point of "replace" rather than "repair;" the hi-beam wires in my BMW had their insulation completely disintegrated requiring re-wiring after only 13 years of age. Not a day goes by that either my phone or my home/work computers don't glitch in some fashion. You know what doesn't glitch? My 1960s tractors. I grew up where farms meet the sea, with most farmers supplementing their incomes by harvesting the local waters. No, the farms aren't nearly as large as those found in the Western states, but you won't find new farm equipment working the fields. However, most every working tractor is either a Ford 9n, or a 1940s-50s IH Farmall, something that a farmer can stich back together with a Lincoln Tombstone.

I guess I may be the exception noted above: each Saturday, my commute is 200 miles each way. At least a half dozen times a year, I/We travel from NY to VA, NC, of FL, sometimes only for a weekend. That's not counting the Intrastate trips I make a few times a year at 300+ miles each way. My best time was upstate NY-Treasure Coast, FL in 16.5 hours, which isn't possible in an "electric" car (quotes, because where is the electricity coming from)? Up here in the NE, brown outs and power failures are common place during the summer when AC is used; as it is, many homes (especially older tenements in NYC) don't have AC, and people die yearly as a result; I can't see how further stressing an already antiquated power grid will make for more convenience, because convenience is the ultimate driver of technology. Newer isn't always better. ICE caught on because it quickly provided more daily convenience and efficiency for a lot of the buying public; if electric cars provide more inconvenience, they'll remain a niche. I personally thing that many folks who are buying electric cars are the same ones who have to keep up with the Jones, have the latest and greatest electronic tech simply to say they have it, or like to feel good pretending they're "green."

I'm going backwards; we considered a hybrid Pacifica, but the downfalls outweighed the benefits (mostly, the loss of the Sto-n-Go seats due to battery pack). I keep a 1970 VW for use on Long Island, and once my trips to daycare end, will likely drive it daily. There's not much I can't diagnose or fix on the side of the road; while I've converted to electronic ignition, the only thing abolute about the electronics is that it will fail, and when it does, fail absolutely. I keep a spare points distributor in the tool bag to stab in and get me home if needed.

A few things might keep ICE around for quite a while: 1) recreational boats/pleasurecraft, which is a huge industry. Last I checked, water and electronics don't play well together. 2) the farming that ARD mentioned above. Humans won't be able to produced enough food if the farming machinery has to convert to electricity, and won't be able to do it affordably. I wouldn't even be able to mow my entire yard if my zero-turn ran on battery, or remove the snow from my driveway, or plow/till my small garden... 3) shipping. One of our ships in the fleet is powered by 4 diesel engines, each producing upwards of 2000 hp each, and she drinks 200 gallons of #1 an hour. She's a small 100 ton boat. If liquid fuel energy were to dry up, international shipping would cease, and then how would we be able to get all those tiny microprocessors and precious lithium from third world countries (where said materials production/mining is likely a human rights violation anyway, but that's another topic)?

Electric vehicles might have their place for the "city boys", but where I live, not at all. Some counties in NY have median incomes in the mid $20,000s, and people drive clapped out 1st Gen Cavaliers and Corsicas. No one drives a 1st gen Cavalier because they want to, they do because they have to. With the average age of registered vehicles older now than it has been in years, the crop of affordable (to not only purchase, but to operate) used vehicles is going to price people out of owning/operating vehicles. Can you image the headache of trying to repair/maintain a 10 or 20 year old electric car? Ugh. It may come as a shock to the urbanites, but things are quite different and destitute in the rural parts of the country. These are some of the elephants in the room.

City boys can keep their digital dashes; analog gauges and engine tuning-by-screwdriver treats me just fine. I can find a missing cylinder simply by holding my hand over the exhaust gas flow, but I sure can't find an electrical fault by touch.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

EV is the future! Future, but not present. 
Too many stuff needs to be resolved. 
But key for transition is cost. If they end up cheaper and more convenient, no one needs to mandate anything. 


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

Autoputzer said:


> My L6S brainwashing makes me. .


As a LSSBB I can attest that LSS is a scam and a Ponzi cult.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

iklo said:


> As a LSSBB I can attest that LSS is a scam and a Ponzi cult.


LSS (or L6S) really just boils down to "do your job" and "use common sense." Within gooberment, it's necessary to have a formal brainwashing program to get people to do that. In the private sector, employees can reasonably expect to directly benefit from efficiency gains they come up with. I worked for a bank part-time in college. Employees were awarded 15% of the annual savings their ideas produced.

Back when BMW's got four years of free maintenance in the US, BMW stretched out the first brake fluid change from two years (from assembly) to three years (from assembly). That meant that they only had to do one free brake fluid change instead of two. That saved BMW NA literally millions of dollars each year. Whoever thought that up paid their salary and pension benefits for the rest of their life. 

Years ago, American Airlines tasked a manger to save them 1,000,000 gallons of jet fuel each year. That's when AA stopped painting the entire fuselage, reducing a plane's weight by 300 to 400 pounds. They started only carrying enough fuel for the flight distance and the necessary factor of safety. They reduced the quantity of beverages carried to only enough for the one flight and reduced the number of magazines in the cabin. They also trained pilots to fly more efficiently. It turned out that saving AA 1,000,000 gallons of jet fuel each year was easy.

My biggest accomplishment in my career with the Navy was getting a bogus R&D project shut down. They'd spent somewhere between $5M and $10M on it and wanted to spend another $5M to $10M. After a month of analysis, I could prove the system would never work. The powers that be were mad as hell at me. As punishment, they were going to make me be a LSS Green Belt for a year. I told the LSS guy that I'd be arriving every day for work wearing nothing but a Speedo and flip-flops, and I was going to make his life a living hell for a year. That was the end of my LSSGB assignment.


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

Autoputzer said:


> LSS (or L6S) really just boils down to "do your job" and "use common sense."


LSS was concieved and made sense when sound statistics can be applied to statistically significant pile of data (as in the orginal Motorola case with billions of tiny chips). In my line of work we build one sub $100M unit per week. LSS is meaningless for the most part, yet management liked the hype and was all over it for a while. Then of course diversity drive kicked in, math became racist and that was it.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)




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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Doug Huffman said:


> View attachment 1047135


I wouldn't want to run out of gas there, either. Actually, I wouldn't want to even be there in the first place.

Our BMW's (535i and X3 30i) use about 0.2 to 0.3 gallons/hour when idling without the AC on.

Here in Floriduh, the power can be out for days or weeks after a hurricane. Larger gas stations are required to have back-up generators so that they can still sell gas during a black-out.

To help with hurricane evacuation, Tesla sent a command to their cars here to let them run the batteries closer to zero charge than they do otherwise. Cutting off use before the batteries are completely depleted protects the batteries from gradual damage.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

I just realized that I know ‘of’ someone that lives in Bubbaville.


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## SteveinArizona (Sep 12, 2016)

iklo said:


> A typical 2MW wind turbine run through its design life span will never generate enough power to substitute the energy extracted from hydrocarbons for its manufacturing: 260 tons of steel (300 tons of iron ore) using 170 tons of coal. That's not counting mining itself, transportation and recycling.
> 
> The green push and EV by extension is purely ideologically driven.


And the material cost for an oil refinery, oil extraction, cleanup, transportation, etc. is cost free? Apples to apples my friend.


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

SteveinArizona said:


> And the material cost for an oil refinery, oil extraction, cleanup, transportation, etc. is cost free? Apples to apples my friend.


Not free but net positive: that's the whole point of industrial revolution that is presently in regress- to extract rather to sink the energy.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> Not free but net positive: that's the whole point of industrial revolution that is presently in regress- to extract rather to sink the energy.


In regress? Extract? Tell us how is industrial revolution in regress? I really want to hear that. 


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

edycol said:


> In regress? Extract? Tell us how is industrial revolution in regress? I really want to hear that.


Extract - rub two sticks and extract thermal energy in the form of a flame. Sink: use the energy stored in coal or oil to produce devices that inefficiently generate energy from wind or sun, while supplementing them with energy produced from coal or oil when wind or sun is unavailable. Like so. That is how you know that the civilization is in regress.


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## jabloomf1230 (May 19, 2014)

It's not surprising that a thread full of BMW owners would be lukewarm to the adoption of BEVs. But what does surprise me is how much misinformation there is in this thread regarding climate change and electric vehicles. A Tesla Model S does not have a range of 200 miles. It is closer to double that number. Besides, there are very few locations on major US highways without a Tesla DC charger that is further than 150 miles away. Charging a Tesla at a Supercharger does not significantly degrade the battery. What degrades the battery is either running it down to zero charge or charging to 100%. BEV owners tend to drive until the 20% charge is reached and then charge up to 85%.

If we are in a "mini ice age", that is irrelevant because the impacts of anthropogenic sources of CO2 are overwhelming the atmosphere's normal homeostasis. The mini ice age theory is just a smokescreen for overt climate change denial. 

PHEVs are not helping to reduce GG emissions primarily because like my 530e they have a tiny battery and most PHEVs are rarely plugged into the electric grid. PHEVs are a scam to avoid regulatory penalties. Anyone considering such a vehicle should also include assessing the complexity of having both battery and internal combustion systems and what that means with regard to reliability.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Here's a Tesla blog (on Tesla's website) from 2014 that lists the S range at 75 MPH as being between 183 and 249 miles.

Driving Range for the Model S Family | Tesla

Yes, they've improved since 2014, now up to around 400 miles.

I'd be all in for a 330e or 530e if they came with a spare tire under the trunk floor and non-run-flat tires. But they don't. So, I'll likely end up with a 330i or 530i in a few years.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

jabloomf1230 said:


> PHEVs are not helping to reduce GG emissions primarily because like my 530e they have a tiny battery and most PHEVs are rarely plugged into the electric grid. PHEVs are a scam to avoid regulatory penalties. Anyone considering such a vehicle should also include assessing the complexity of having both battery and internal combustion systems and what that means with regard to reliability.


My 530e is plugged in a lot. I've charged my 530e almost 700 times at home since I've purchased it in Oct. 2019. That excludes parking I might do at places like the grocery store occasionally. All that is while street parking in Philly!

Even without plugging my 530e in it is more efficient in the city than driving my pure ICE car that it replaced. Brake regeneration is really powerful in city traffic.

So I wouldn't call PHEVs a waste. They also do a great job helping people acclimate to EVs without needing to have every problem figured out. They are a key transitional tech IMHO.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> Extract - rub two sticks and extract thermal energy in the form of a flame. Sink: use the energy stored in coal or oil to produce devices that inefficiently generate energy from wind or sun, while supplementing them with energy produced from coal or oil when wind or sun is unavailable. Like so. That is how you know that the civilization is in regress.


Ah so instead of regressing into 2040 you want to progress into 1920. 
I get it now. 


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

LogicalApex said:


> My 530e is plugged in a lot. I've charged my 530e almost 700 times at home since I've purchased it in Oct. 2019. That excludes parking I might do at places like the grocery store occasionally. All that is while street parking in Philly!
> 
> Even without plugging my 530e in it is more efficient in the city than driving my pure ICE car that it replaced. Brake regeneration is really powerful in city traffic.
> 
> ...


I had F15 40e loaner when there was Takata recall. I plugged it at home and could make it to work (12 miles) with no ICE help. Some 40% would be left (it is mostly downhill). 
Going back I needed ICE bcs. several steep hills and battery would be at 10%. But my mpg was hitting 40-45mpg. 
Hwy on other hand, my X5 35d was more efficient and of course, faster. 


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

jabloomf1230 said:


> It's not surprising that a thread full of BMW owners would be lukewarm to the adoption of BEVs. But what does surprise me is how much misinformation there is in this thread regarding climate change and electric vehicles. A Tesla Model S does not have a range of 200 miles. It is closer to double that number. Besides, there are very few locations on major US highways without a Tesla DC charger that is further than 150 miles away. Charging a Tesla at a Supercharger does not significantly degrade the battery. What degrades the battery is either running it down to zero charge or charging to 100%. BEV owners tend to drive until the 20% charge is reached and then charge up to 85%.
> 
> If we are in a "mini ice age", that is irrelevant because the impacts of anthropogenic sources of CO2 are overwhelming the atmosphere's normal homeostasis. The mini ice age theory is just a smokescreen for overt climate change denial.
> 
> ...


The range is just one of the issues. 
This is bigger problem that needs to be resolved:





__





Several German cities halt use of e-buses following series of unresolved cases of fire







www.cleanenergywire.org





What I am expecting is home insurance providers to add cost of EV bcs. fires. And these are not just your regular fires. When lithium battery ignites, you can sit and cry. 
It will be resolved, but give it 20-30 years before we talk EV as present, not future. 


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

edycol said:


> Ah so instead of regressing into 2040 you want to progress into 1920.
> I get it now.


They say that the 1880 - 1913 was the happiest period in the history of mankind.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> They say that the 1880 - 1913 was the happiest period in the history of mankind.


Sure it is, measles’, polio, plague, syphilis, rats mixed with meat, black lungs, general poverty etc. 
i mean, it was a hoot. 


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

Autoputzer said:


> I'd be all in for a 330e or 530e if they came with a spare tire under the trunk floor and non-run-flat tires. But they don't. So, I'll likely end up with a 330i or 530i in a few years.


I am eyeing an A6 Allroad: has a spare, 19.5 g tank, inline 6, 34mpg, DCT and 5 star crash rating. Admittedly I know nothing whatsoever about other brands being with BMW for 30 years, but with no MT and a kitchy lineup BMW lost its last remaining appeal.


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

edycol said:


> Sure it is, measles’, polio, plague, syphilis, rats mixed with meat, black lungs, general poverty etc.
> i mean, it was a hoot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But Marx and Lenin were alive charting the better word for yourself, komrade.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

jabloomf1230 said:


> It's not surprising that a thread full of BMW owners would be lukewarm to the adoption of BEVs. But what does surprise me is how much misinformation there is in this thread regarding climate change and electric vehicles.


What surprises me is that people feel compelled to have these 'discussions' with other people who are more than happy to traffic in falsehoods and misinformation. 

Its a dumb waste of time. IMO


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

edycol said:


> The range is just one of the issues.
> This is bigger problem that needs to be resolved:
> 
> 
> ...


I was on a ferry going to work last Friday, looking at the Tesla parked in another lane like the potentially murderous SOB that it is. Much like Samsung batteries on airplanes, I look forward to EVs being banned from ferries, but it’ll unfortunately probably take a catastrophe in order to do so. Can you imagine a lithium fire on the main deck of a boat surrounded by 200 other gas tanks parked 6” apart, with most passengers and crew directly above it, all happening miles from shore?


Via the interwebs


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

It would be interesting to read the Department of Transportation ferry tariff documents to see if the Master does not have authority to prevent recognizable hazards on his craft. I know that our 100 ton ferries have to run special boats for hazardous cargo - fuel, propane.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

Doug Huffman said:


> It would be interesting to read the Department of Transportation ferry tariff documents to see if the Master does not have authority to prevent recognizable hazards on his craft. I know that our 100 ton ferries have to run special boats for hazardous cargo - fuel, propane.


Same with ours, including liquid nitrogen. It’s somewhere in the CFRs; it’s been a while since I’ve had to read them but they even delineate between full and empty fuel trucks IIRC due to differences in volatility; when we transport a fuel truck we’re limited to 6 passengers on our 100 tonners. The vessel I was on last week was either 1600 or 2200 GRT with the freight deck fully enclosed on all sides, with the bow apron drawn down tight to the deck as well. The Master is at full discretion to turn away anyone s/he sees fit, but in a non-union shop like the ferry company I was riding, that Master may not have a boat to steer the next day if they did without legitimate (in the CFR) reason. If BEVs were to be added to the list of hazards, though, the Master would have a leg to stand on. Gasoline is quite volatile and the regs impose restrictions on a fuel truck, but not 200 cars potentially carrying the same amount of gasoline. 


Via the interwebs


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> But Marx and Lenin were alive charting the better word for yourself, komrade.


It would be good if you knew anything about it, so don’t project. 


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

iklo said:


> I am eyeing an A6 Allroad: has a spare, 19.5 g tank, inline 6, 34mpg, DCT and 5 star crash rating. Admittedly I know nothing whatsoever about other brands being with BMW for 30 years, but with no MT and a kitchy lineup BMW lost its last remaining appeal.


Inline 6 in A6? How? 


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

The only car I've seen go up in flames was an F30. 2500 PSI direct injection and a glowing-hot turbocharger are a bad combination. 

I suspect the car you should be most worried about being parked next to yours on a ferry would be an air-cooled, carbureted VW. My cousin's and Frau Putzer's goddaughter's both went up in flames.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

dukedkt442 said:


> I was on a ferry going to work last Friday, looking at the Tesla parked in another lane like the potentially murderous SOB that it is. Much like Samsung batteries on airplanes, I look forward to EVs being banned from ferries, but it’ll unfortunately probably take a catastrophe in order to do so. Can you imagine a lithium fire on the main deck of a boat surrounded by 200 other gas tanks parked 6” apart, with most passengers and crew directly above it, all happening miles from shore?
> 
> 
> Via the interwebs


Unfortunately, as usual, it will take some accident for regulatory bodies to set up some rules. 
Behavior of Elon Musk is especially ridiculous. He gas too much money, so Wall Street likes hime. Liberals like him as they think he is some kind of savior. So he is getting away with a lot of stuff. VW is going to shell out $40 billion for dieselgate, yet this guy is deliberately killing people:









Inside Tesla as Elon Musk Pushed an Unflinching Vision for Self-Driving Cars


The automaker may have undermined safety in designing its Autopilot driver-assistance system to fit its chief executive’s vision, former employees say.




www.nytimes.com






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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Autoputzer said:


> The only car I've seen go up in flames was an F30. 2500 PSI direct injection and a glowing-hot turbocharger are a bad combination.
> 
> I suspect the car you should be most worried about being parked next to yours on a ferry would be an air-cooled, carbureted VW. My cousin's and Frau Putzer's goddaughter's both went up in flames.


ICE in general have higher rate of fires. 
But it is more complicated source:
1. Most ICE fires are caused by electric source. BMW had big issues with grounding on E60/61 that caused fires. Fuel is rarely issue. It doesn’t self ignite. And that F30 is dramatic anomaly. But even that, you are at it with fire extinguisher. I have one in all three vehicles. 
2. Any ICE starting fire on ferry can be controlled if seen on time or warning system detects it on time. EV? It is a huge problem to extinguish lithium batteries. 
3. And what about lithium battery in bus or 18 wheelers? That will be a true show. 


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

I had maybe a ton of primary (not rechargeable) Li batteries where I worked. I had to keep them inside watertight metal cans, in a separate building with a water deluge system (high-volume "sprinkler" system). The fire chief was all bent out of shape by the possibility of mixing lithium and water, producing hydrogen gas. I had to explain that in the event of a fire keeping the batteries still intact cool was the priority.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

Autoputzer said:


> I suspect the car you should be most worried about being parked next to yours on a ferry would be an air-cooled, carbureted VW. My cousin's and Frau Putzer's goddaughter's both went up in flames.


A few data points don't establish a trend line.  ACVW fires are usually the result of an owner installing a fuel filter inline in the carb feed line; the original fuel fittings on the PICT carbs are smooth press-fit, so the weight of the filter pulls the fitting out of the carb over time, spraying pumped-fuel over the 300*F heat risers. My rebuilt 34PICT3 carb has a barbed replacement fuel fitting, and I relocated the fuel filter under the fuel tank. Whenever I see a fuel filter in the engine room of an ACVW, I know I'm dealing with a noob.  Parking next to my ACVW is completely safe, especially because it won’t catch fire with engine off.


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## friz frreleng (Nov 28, 2017)

moRider said:


> .....In California, it's not terribly difficult to own _just _EVs (for both commuting and longer road trips). The charging infrastructure is excellent - especially for Teslas.....


Hardly enough for me to return to Cali. As the pro gun Ad said decades past "you will have to pry my cold dead fingers off my gun....." I am not giving up my 745 LI. It is hands down, the most comfortable/drivable road machine I have ever driven.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

friz frreleng said:


> Hardly enough for me to return to Cali. As the pro gun Ad said decades past "you will have to pry my cold dead fingers off my gun....."


Uhhn! That was not an advertisement.


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## moRider (Feb 28, 2012)

Um, I don't think California plans to pry anyone's ICE cars from their _cold dead fingers_. If anything, the automotive industry will shift to nearly all electric, and enthusiasts like us will hold on to our ICE cars until they stop running. I plan to buy one more ICE sports car (in manual) when my 340i starts giving me expensive problems. Then, EV will be inevitable.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

friz frreleng said:


> Hardly enough for me to return to Cali. As the pro gun Ad said decades past "you will have to pry my cold dead fingers off my gun....." I am not giving up my 745 LI. It is hands down, the most comfortable/drivable road machine I have ever driven.


And why would someone take away your 745? I highly doubt anyone cares what you own. 


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

edycol said:


> And why would someone take away your 745? I highly doubt anyone cares what you own.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There's actually something to this. Some people do care if somebody owns a 745i, or whatever.

A tree-hugging relative of mine was ranting about my M3. I told her that my M3 used less gasoline than my Honda Civic. After she came down from the ceiling, I mansplained to her that it used less gasoline than my Civic because I drove it less.

I had to pay a federal gas guzzler tax on my M3. Over the 115k miles I had it, I averaged 21.2 MPG. I only averaged 18.3 MPG with my Chevy Silverado 1500, yet I didn't have to pay a gas guzzler tax on it. I'm o.k. with gas guzzling being limited through taxation. However, that should be a gas guzzl*ing *tax (on the gasoline itself) instead of a gas guzzl*er* tax on the cars that have the potential to guzzle gas. That's hard to do politically, because there are a lot more voters driving Silverados than M3's or 745i's.

I expect my new cars to get better MPG than the ones they replace. My 535i replaced my M3, and I have got 25.8 MPG with it since I bought it. My next BMW will likely be a 330i, which would likely get something over 30 MPG.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

friz frreleng said:


> Hardly enough for me to return to Cali. As the pro gun Ad said decades past "you will have to pry my cold dead fingers off my gun....." I am not giving up my 745 LI. It is hands down, the most comfortable/drivable road machine I have ever driven.


Wha!?

How would California or any state take your car or anything else? The Constitution specifically prohibits Ex Post Facto laws. Despite what fear mongers tell you they can’t pass laws tomorrow un-ringing the bells of today. 

New ICE car sales can be banned, but they couldn’t ban those already on the road. That’s why a 1965 car can still be legally owned and driven without seatbelts or compliance with air pollution laws. It is also why those unsafe duck tourists traps are on the road without any safety rules. They are converted WW2 vehicles.









EX POST FACTO LAW Definition & Meaning - Black's Law Dictionary


Find the legal definition of EX POST FACTO LAW from Black's Law Dictionary, 2nd Edition. A law passed after the occurrence of a fact or commission ofan act, which retrospectively changes the legal consequences or relations of such' factor...




thelawdictionary.org


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

LogicalApex said:


> Wha!?
> 
> How would California or any state take your car or anything else? The Constitution specifically prohibits Ex Post Facto laws. Despite what fear mongers tell you they can’t pass laws tomorrow un-ringing the bells of today.
> 
> ...


They can make gas illegal. Probably will.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

iklo said:


> They can make gas illegal. Probably will.


Surely you can see the absurdity of that statement…


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)

LogicalApex said:


> Surely you can see the absurdity of that statement…


if only








California becomes first state to phase out gas-powered lawn equipment


$30 million in the state's budget will be used to create a statewide incentive program to help landscaping businesses transition to zero-emission equipment.




www.cbsnews.com


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## iklo (Jan 17, 2011)




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## u.nanimous (Nov 1, 2014)

Just found something interesting...let's say you are planning to stay at an Airbnb in The Black Hills in South Dakota - they do not allow charging of electric vehicles because of the high cost of electricity. So much for overnight charging so you can spend the day sightseeing!


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

u.nanimous said:


> Just found something interesting...let's say you are planning to stay at an Airbnb in The Black Hills in South Dakota - they do not allow charging of electric vehicles because of the high cost of electricity. So much for overnight charging so you can spend the day sightseeing!


Bring a Honda portable generator and some jerry cans... problem solved!


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

u.nanimous said:


> Just found something interesting...let's say you are planning to stay at an Airbnb in The Black Hills in South Dakota - they do not allow charging of electric vehicles because of the high cost of electricity. So much for overnight charging so you can spend the day sightseeing!


That will change as Airbnb owners start learning to read their electric bills (specifically the cost per kWh) instead of simply paying the amount due each month. That, plus a little research to determine how much juice a typical EV consumes to charge overnight, should make it pretty easy to work out a nightly "EV surcharge" to cover the increased usage.

This of course assumes they want to be fair or remotely reasonable. Another approach would be to just tack on $10-15/day (or whatever) per EV.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Zeichen311 said:


> That will change as Airbnb owners start learning to read their electric bills (specifically the cost per kWh) instead of simply paying the amount due each month. That, plus a little research to determine how much juice a typical EV consumes to charge overnight, should make it pretty easy to work out a nightly "EV surcharge" to cover the increased usage.
> 
> This of course assumes they want to be fair or remotely reasonable. Another approach would be to just tack on $10-15/day (or whatever) per EV.


How about a kWh meter integrated into the extension cord going from the wall sockets to the car being charged?


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## u.nanimous (Nov 1, 2014)

Ugh you have to log in to "see more" but this is some of the fine print for one in Custer, SD.

House Rules

We cannot allow electric vehicles to be charged on property. Electricity in the Black Hills is very expensive. Black Hills Power And Light notifies of large increases in usage. We will retain security deposit to cover the added...see more


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

Tip of the iceberg....


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Car charging can be programmed to start at a particular time of day. Here's a spread of hourly usage over a day. Filling in the low use times with car charging will be a boon for power companies. A lot of places have time-based metering, with big discounts for off-peak usage.


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## moRider (Feb 28, 2012)

Autoputzer said:


> Car charging can be programmed to start at a particular time of day. Here's a spread of hourly usage over a day. Filling in the low use times with car charging will be a boon for power companies. A lot of places have time-based metering, with big discounts for off-peak usage.
> 
> View attachment 1050332


That's the case where I live. Electricity is cheaper after 9pm.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

The sharper heating peak January is obvious. 

My cheap power is heating related rather than time of day. 

Once upon a time - no no, that’s a fairy tale. This is no shout, there was not sufficient electrical load to even idle our diesel generator sets through the night as most preferred and traditionally used wood for heating. To encourage electric heat at night it is heavily subsidized 6¢/KWh from which I benefit. I still pay about $500/month heating electricity.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

u.nanimous said:


> Just found something interesting...let's say you are planning to stay at an Airbnb in The Black Hills in South Dakota - they do not allow charging of electric vehicles because of the high cost of electricity. So much for overnight charging so you can spend the day sightseeing!


huh. 

Never realized they allow electric cars in South Dakota....


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## SteveinArizona (Sep 12, 2016)

moRider said:


> That's the case where I live. Electricity is cheaper after 9pm.


3-8 PM exclusionary period here.


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