# Is AWD really an advantage?



## Wagons (Feb 2, 2006)

a spinning top.


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## AW328i (Aug 14, 2006)

What I meant to say is that awd doesn't give any advantage over braking in the snow than rwd. I would think that since awd adds weight to the car, it would decrease brake performance in the snow. But that depends on what kind of tires you have too.Pinecone, you are right about engine braking and spinning out. Did that with my 4 wd montero on a street, wouldn't recommend it!! :thumbdwn:


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

SmoothCruise said:


> so if the AWD car turns into a sled under snowy corners when coasting, what does a rear wheel drive car turn into under the same conditions?


If both cars have the same tires, it would be the same. But around here, the BMW will be on snows, and the awd cars are usually on all seasons. So the rear drive car avoids the ditch.

Because the WRX can fly down a straight under power, the driver is much more likely to enter a corner too fast, lift off, and slide into the ditch. Don't ask me how I know this.  Ok, since you asked, I've had some near misses in the WRX, which I avoided by getting back on the gas. Do you think the average awd driver sliding toward a snow bank knows to get back on the gas? I doubt it.


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

Click and go down to post 15, we found the Audi guy's cousin

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4768169


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

SmoothCruise said:


> so if the AWD car turns into a sled under snowy corners when coasting, what does a rear wheel drive car turn into under the same conditions?


Just to mix things up, what if it were xDrive AWD? :rofl:

Still trying to find a good set of winter tires/rims for the X.........


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## SmoothCruise (Jul 23, 2005)

Dawg90 said:


> If both cars have the same tires, it would be the same. But around here, the BMW will be on snows, and the awd cars are usually on all seasons. So the rear drive car avoids the ditch.


Well, okay, but you haven't kept things ceterus paribus in respect to AWD and RWD. I suspect AWD will still have the advantage to the RWD system which someone described as a "spinning top". I've never driven AWD in the snow. I have sat shotgun in an Audi on a snowy road, very close to ice conditions. The audi handled fine. I drove my car on the same road with snow tires, and I could tell instantly that my car just could not handle things. This was straight line driving. :dunno:



Dawg90 said:


> Because the WRX can fly down a straight under power, the driver is much more likely to enter a corner too fast, lift off, and slide into the ditch. Don't ask me how I know this.  Ok, since you asked, I've had some near misses in the WRX, which I avoided by getting back on the gas. Do you think the average awd driver sliding toward a snow bank knows to get back on the gas? I doubt it.


But is this a fault of AWD? Or driver ignorance? Keep in mind that people on this forum complain about how dumb people are to use something without knowing how to use it. Now go ahead and answer the question honestly.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

SmoothCruise said:


> Well, okay, but you haven't kept things ceterus paribus in respect to AWD and RWD. I suspect AWD will still have the advantage to the RWD system which someone described as a "spinning top". I've never driven AWD in the snow. I have sat shotgun in an Audi on a snowy road, very close to ice conditions. The audi handled fine. I drove my car on the same road with snow tires, and I could tell instantly that my car just could not handle things. This was straight line driving. :dunno:
> 
> But is this a fault of AWD? Or driver ignorance? Keep in mind that people on this forum complain about how dumb people are to use something without knowing how to use it. Now go ahead and answer the question honestly.


awd kicks ass in straight line driving - the danger is when you try to brake, or lift off in a corner, then you suddenly lose that awd advantage. The fault is in people not understanding how awd works.

That's probably why half the cars in the ditch during winter storms up here are awd or 4wd.

Knowing how awd works, I don't find it worth the trade-off vs rear drive. And in some cases, I'd prefer front drive, like in a lighter car like a Mazdaspeed 3 or Civic Si. The same car with awd would be too heavy.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

AWD is better than RWD in low traction coditions. There is a reason they rule in WRC. And in low traction, FWD tends to be better than RWD. 

But in high tration situations, RWD has some advantages, especially when it comes to throttle steer. This is why the Subies have variable front rear split to go from more FWD to more AWD to more RWD in character.

Thsis all assumes a good driver. With a more average driver, AWD/FWD is better than RWD because it will help them do teh right thing and stay on the road. 

And I knew what you were saying about brakes, but it was WHAT you actually said.


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## lupinsea (May 23, 2006)

I didn't mean to beat up on the guy or trash Audis but more to post a point (or points):


All cars have their limit and exceeding those can be very dangerous. I'm sure Audi's AWD traction system does wonders (never experienced it personally, well, from inside the car  ) but it's not a magic-supa-driving-spell or anything. And here was an example where the the limits were exceeded. I'm sure there are also lots of images out there of RWD cars in similar situations (BMWs, too, I bet).
These are public roads, not race tracks. As such they are much more dangerous to drive. If there is a problem it could end VERY badly for both the driver or any bystandards or other drivers. Given this none of us should be pushing our cars (or ourselves) to the limit. It leaves no safety margin whatsoever for the unexpected.
In the event of an accident, for God's sake get your frigg'n car out of the way if you can, or go wave people down if you can't. Fortunately, I was following this guy and so was expecting to come upon a crash sooner or later. It's one thing to screw around and get yourself hurt but it's unconscionable to involve others. I had to pointedly tell him to move his car 200 ft down the road to the middle of the straight. Hell, I was nervous just standing around his car just in case someone else came whipping around the corner.
A reminder, blind corners are called blind corners for a reason. . . . you can't see around them. One of the reasons I wasn't driving balls out on this (or any) public road. I want to leave some kind of safety margin so there's time to hit the brakes, slow the car down, or make last-minute direction changes or course corrections. Remember the traction circle? If you're max'ed out at any of the limits you have virtually no room to do much else.

Well, I guess I'll get off my soap box.

There are a lot of cool cars out there and some incredible roads upon which to drive, but there are also other drivers and people who'd just assume not be involved with what we're doing or any potential consequence of our mistakes. I still kick it up and have fun but I try to be very mindful of where I'm driving, whos around me (or could be), driving/road conditions, any intersecting roads or driveways, and visibility.

Drive accordingly, I guess.


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## MCSL (Jan 30, 2005)

Mitsubishi Evo vs. Ferrari & Porsche

Race Track: Dijon (France)

http://videos.streetfire.net/recentvideos/0/eaa34e81-6ee0-45a5-b746-987c005e2f81.htm


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

Here's the scenario
- One driver
- B6 Audi S4
- dry conditions

Car A: AWD
Car B: Disabled AWD (and minus 100 lbs)

1- Who is faster around the ring?
2- Who is faster on a regular AutoX course where speeds don't reach over 60 mph


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

MCSL said:


> Mitsubishi Evo vs. Ferrari & Porsche
> 
> Race Track: Dijon (France)
> 
> http://videos.streetfire.net/recentvideos/0/eaa34e81-6ee0-45a5-b746-987c005e2f81.htm


I could catch a Ferrari in track day traffic too.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

shizat63 said:


> Here's the scenario
> - One driver
> - B6 Audi S4
> - dry conditions
> ...


Front drive Audi would be slower on both.

Better comparison is awd and rear drive versions of a car - the rear drive would win those. G35 for example. Or 330Xi vs 330i.


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

elbert said:


> The TT originally was much more neutral.
> Unfortunately there were quite a few high speed wrecks after a couple months (apparently the TT's body generates a lot of lift when sliding sideways), so there was a recall including new anti-roll bars, different control arms, reprogrammed stability control, and a rear spoiler (Audi people call this revised car the MkII). Of course all subsequent cars had these safety "features" which is why the car understeers so badly.


The original TT you speak of was FWD, I had one in 1999, an early release 2000 model. The car had been tuned to be very neutral, probably the best FWD handler of its time. That, mixed with the lift resulted in several high speed accidents where people lifted off throttle while already too hot and spun out. I had a 2001 225 Quattro later and it was never as nimble as the first, there was even a black market for the Mk I control arms for awhile. My experience with that car was that the quattro was probably a viable accessory for those in colder climates, for me in Texas it was heavy and understeering. I am a big Audi fan, but am not indoctrinated to Quattro like most Audi afficionados. The company has done a bang up job of selling the US market on it, most ROW Audis are FWD.


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## MCSL (Jan 30, 2005)

400hp Mitsubishi Evo

Race Track: Lime Rock

Lap Time: 59.7 s

http://www.hotlapmotorsports.com/productcart/pc/viewcontent.asp?idpage=1

http://www.hotlapmotorsports.com/productcart/pc/index.asp


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## MCSL (Jan 30, 2005)

Infineon Raceway (2.52-mile) Lap Times

SCCA ITE Mitsubishi Evo _ 1:43.221

SCCA T1 Ferrari _ 1:47.352

http://www.sfrscca.org/RoadRacing/R...h=2.52&selSession=Qualifying&cmdSubmit=Submit

http://www.muellerized.com/videos/index.php?path=92-silver_car/Sears_Point/

http://www.muellerized.com/


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## MCSL (Jan 30, 2005)

Road&Track Slalom Test

Mitsubishi Evo IX RS _ 69.7 mph

Honda S2000 _ 69.7 mph

Mercedes SLR McLaren _ 69.6 mph

Ford GT _ 69.5 mph

BMW M6 _ 69.5 mph

Mini Cooper S _ 69.5 mph

Audi A4 2.0T Quattro _ 69.2 mph

BMW M5 _ 68.9 mph

Porsche 911 GT3 _ 68.7 mph

BMW M Roadster _ 68.7 mph

Aston Martin V8 Vantage _ 68.6 mph

Mercedes SLK350 _ 68.4 mph

Mazda RX-8 _ 68.4 mph

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=3688

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2006/112_news061218_mitsubishi_prototype_x

http://www.caranddriver.com/autoshows/12188/2008-mitsubishi-lancer.html


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

That's an interesting mix. Fastest car was a relatively high power/weight ratio AWD car, but the MINI is only a "reasonably" fast car and its FWD probably makes the purists here shudder (hint: its nimbleness based on its light weight is a key element). The 2.0T Quattro A4 isn't a rocket either.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

In absolute terms, AWD has advantages.

The question is whether or not those advantages outweigh the extra weight, the extra complexity, extra drivetrain loss, and whether you could have gotten enough grip out of the rear tires in the first place.


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## MCSL (Jan 30, 2005)

2006 NASA Championship

Mid-Ohio w/chicane (2.4-mile) Lap Times

NASA TTU Mitsubishi Evo _ 1:34.366

NASA TTA Audi S4 _ 1:36.863

http://www.nasachampionships.com/track-records.html

http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=416884

http://www.amsperformance.com/roadraceevo.php

http://www.racerjon.com/


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Q. Is AWD really an advantage? 
A. Sometimes.

I don't think there is any other answer.  

What is the best AWD sports car? I'm guessing right now, the 997C4S & TT. Maybe the new Skyline will have an amazing AWD system? The 06 STI system is good, but I find it sends a bit too much power to the front wheels at times. They should develop a system that sends 100% power to the rear wheels untill they slip and only then transfer power to the front. I don't think any AWD cars are setup this way? Maybe that's a bad idea, I don't know. I love the RWD in my M3, but at times I really love the AWD in my STI. I can't decide.


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## MCSL (Jan 30, 2005)

Phoenix Road Course (1.5-mile) Lap Times

Sun Auto Cyber Evo _ 1:01.803

Grand-Am GT Pontiac GTO.R _ 1:03.694

http://www.gtlivetour.com/about/pir_results.html

http://gallery.modified.com/gallery.php?i=/media/images/13-410188/gal/&page=5

http://www.superstreetonline.com/fe...mitsubishi_evolution_vii_tuner_car/index.html

http://www.grand-am.com/Events/SessionResults.asp?SessionID=681

http://www.theracersgroup.com/racing/pro/gto.php


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

not all awd are created equal, same for tires

my Honda Ridgeline truck with Blizzak DM-Z3 winter tires is freaking awesome even on glare ice, if I hadn't experienced it I never would have believed what it can do in snow & ice is possible. My only issue is getting around all the slow pokes ...


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

TeamM3 said:


> not all awd are created equal, same for tires
> 
> my Honda Ridgeline truck with Blizzak DM-Z3 winter tires is freaking awesome even on glare ice, if I hadn't experienced it I never would have believed what it can do in snow & ice is possible. My only issue is getting around all the slow pokes ...


You have ice in Tejas? :yikes:


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## MCSL (Jan 30, 2005)

AWD cars dominate Winged Warrior competition.

Skidpad + Auto-x + Slalom + Drag Strip

http://media.putfile.com/WW2-Teaser

http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i14/michaelbenz/?action=view&current=WW06AXIC.flv

http://www.wingedwarrior.net/docs/WW2_Final_Results_Web-1.xls

http://www.wingedwarrior.net/


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