# It's time for the DSC debate



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

So to my amazement, some A guys from the East Coast are saying on Turdfly E46 M3 board that their instructors want them to drive on the track with DSC on. 

My first question is, how does someone advanced into the A group and not have the instructor be comfortable enough with his skills that he is asked to leave DSC on?

Furthermore, how do you get to be an A guy without knowing how to deal with tank slapper and CPR?  :dunno: 

I know that it's absolutely frightening to me to know that someone in B at the speed that we are going does not know how to do CPR and deal with tank slapper. That is just insane. :yikes:


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Uhhh... what are "tank slapper" and "CPR"?

"Tank slapper" sounds like power oversteer, but that's just a wild guess.

:dunno:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Plaz said:


> Uhhh... what are "tank slapper" and "CPR"?
> 
> "Tank slapper" sounds like power oversteer, but that's just a wild guess.
> 
> :dunno:


Tank slapper is a motorcycle term that also applies to cars. It's when the back end came out, you corrected it, but you are having to kept correcting to try to keep the car from looping. I had to do a two correction coming out of the horse shoe at Vegas, that's the idea of tank slapper. Only think 5, 6 times. :thumbup:

CPR is Correct, Pause, Recover. It is the sequence required to save the car when the back end comes out. :drive: :bigpimp:


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## operknockity (Apr 19, 2002)

Stuka said:


> CPR is Correct, Pause, Recover. It is the sequence required to save the car when the back end comes out. :drive: :bigpimp:


 And if you don't manage to save the car, in extreme situations, it'd be the technique used to save the driver's life... cardiopulmonary resuscitation.


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## BMWRacerITS (Mar 17, 2004)

A tank slapper in a car just means you weren't quick enough catching the car the first time it got a little out of shape.

Trust me, there are even instructors at DE's that wouldn't know what to do if they got in a lot of trouble because they've never drive hard enough to get into a lot of trouble. More times than not, folks get shoved into the higher groups based on experience alone. I haven't done any DE's lately, but the last few I did it seemed like there were tons more newbies getting into it, which made people without much experience "verterans".


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Stuka said:


> Tank slapper is a motorcycle term that also applies to cars. It's when the back end came out, you corrected it, but you are having to kept correcting to try to keep the car from looping.


The motorcycle terminology comes from the fact that when it happens on a bike, that's literally what your lower body is doing for the duration...slapping the gas tank over and over and over again.


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## teamdfl (Sep 24, 2002)

Stuka said:


> So to my amazement, some A guys from the East Coast are saying on Turdfly E46 M3 board that their instructors want them to drive on the track with DSC on. ...


Your first mistake is visiting roachfly.com

Ed


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Aw man.... as if you didn't hear enough of this debate at Vegas?   Wait till certain other people see this... it'll get them going again... 

Some people asked the question at a DCI event I attended. Their response was to try it both ways and see what it feels like. But I believe they said they generally tell people to turn it off. :dunno:


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

just take the fuse out :eeps:


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## Guest (May 21, 2004)

I have no idea why any instructor anywhere, be it for a full track school or an autox school would ever advise students to leave DSC (or even AST) ON. Turn it off. The idea is for YOU to learn how to drive the car yourself, not the computer. How can you feel the effects of your inputs with the computer kicking in to reign you in constantly? Stupid. Turn it off and leave it off until you are back out on public roads.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> Aw man.... as if you didn't hear enough of this debate at Vegas?   Wait till certain other people see this... it'll get them going again...
> 
> Some people asked the question at a DCI event I attended. Their response was to try it both ways and see what it feels like. But I believe they said they generally tell people to turn it off. :dunno:


My eyes lit up when I saw this thread... and when I saw your post... I jumped! :rofl: :bustingup

Okay Stuka... you asked for it... 

I'll just quickly post since I'm in the middle of 10 things (one of them being wrapping up my day for the weekend... hehe).


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Stuka said:


> So to my amazement, some A guys from the East Coast are saying on Turdfly E46 M3 board that their instructors want them to drive on the track with DSC on.


If it's a new student, and I have no idea how they drive... I'd rather have the 'nanny' turned on for the first couple laps.



Stuka said:


> My first question is, how does someone advanced into the A group and not have the instructor be comfortable enough with his skills that he is asked to leave DSC on?


Like someone already said... some people are placed in some groups just because of previous experience. Simply cause someone is in A doesn't mean they are an A driver.



Stuka said:


> Furthermore, how do you get to be an A guy without knowing how to deal with tank slapper and CPR?  :dunno:


Again, lack of experience.



Stuka said:


> I know that it's absolutely frightening to me to know that someone in B at the speed that we are going does not know how to do CPR and deal with tank slapper. That is just insane. :yikes:


I think that's why some chapters organize car control clinics so that people learn what it feels like to get the car sideways and to learn how to correct.

Like I said, I'll post my opinion of when to turn DSC on/off later on when I have more time.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

sergiok said:


> My eyes lit up when I saw this thread... and when I saw your post... I jumped! :rofl: :bustingup
> 
> Okay Stuka... you asked for it...
> 
> I'll just quickly post since I'm in the middle of 10 things (one of them being wrapping up my day for the weekend... hehe).


:rofl:


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

IMO, first 2 run sessions for people that have never been to a track, DSC is a good idea. After that, DSC should be off. Mandating DSC on for 'A' drivers is crazy :tsk:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

StahlGrauM3 said:


> IMO, first 2 run sessions for people that have never been to a track, DSC is a good idea. After that, DSC should be off. Mandating DSC on for 'A' drivers is crazy :tsk:


For my first school at Laguna Seca, I left DSC on for the first two sessions while I got acquianted with the track.... then I turned it off the rest of the school.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

I have had DSC ON recommended for the first couple of laps when a mid day rain wet teh track down. But I turned it off because it was driving me NUTS.

If I were an instructor, with a student I didn't know, I would consider DSC on for the first couple of laps to see what they are going to do.

But the heck with this DE stuff, DEs are just to learn a new track to go racing.  In racing, no DSC, if you go off track, no big deal, get back on and go. And if you never lose it, you aren't driving hard enough.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> If I were an instructor, with a student I didn't know, I would consider DSC on for the first couple of laps to see what they are going to do.


It's not just what a driver will or won't do... it's the unknown of the unkown...

There are drivers that don't know what the car will do on certain turns. If you have an inexperienced driver that doesn't know to countersteer when the back end comes out... you're simply asking for trouble. I know there is an argument for 'well, turn DSC off so they do learn'. But I think it's better, especially for newer track drivers, to leave it on. Once they learn the track, learn what the car will do, then they can turn it off.

Plus, DSC is designed to kick in at about 8/10ths to 9/10ths of the car's potential. Many new track drivers never even get close to that! Sure, the driver might think he's at 9/10ths, but that's only his potential, not the car's. I may be able to drive my car at 10/10ths but I may only be pushing myself 8/10ths, or vice-versa.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> It's not just what a driver will or won't do... it's the unknown of the unkown...
> 
> There are drivers that don't know what the car will do on certain turns. If you have an inexperienced driver that doesn't know to countersteer when the back end comes out... you're simply asking for trouble. I know there is an argument for 'well, turn DSC off so they do learn'. But I think it's better, especially for newer track drivers, to leave it on. Once they learn the track, learn what the car will do, then they can turn it off.
> 
> Plus, DSC is designed to kick in at about 8/10ths to 9/10ths of the car's potential. Many new track drivers never even get close to that! Sure, the driver might think he's at 9/10ths, but that's only his potential, not the car's. I may be able to drive my car at 10/10ths but I may only be pushing myself 8/10ths, or vice-versa.


 Doooood, yo uare sooooo wrong, it's not even funny....  :tsk:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Uh... DSC kicks in at 2/10ths in the M3. Virtually every time I have to make a turn from a stop, I kill DSC. Whenever I forget to do so, the car bogs. It's kind of frightening, actually.

On the xiT DSC kicked in at about 5/10ths. Still far too early to be useful. And the whole idea of having the car automatically stall the engine for me was just a little too frightening to tolerate.


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## Mdk330i (Feb 24, 2002)

operknockity said:


> And if you don't manage to save the car, in extreme situations, it'd be the technique used to save the driver's life... cardiopulmonary resuscitation.


That's what I was thinking too.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Raffi said:


> Doooood, yo uare sooooo wrong, it's not even funny....  :tsk:




: popcorn:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Uh... DSC kicks in at 2/10ths in the M3. Virtually every time I have to make a turn from a stop, I kill DSC. Whenever I forget to do so, the car bogs. It's kind of frightening, actually.
> 
> On the xiT DSC kicked in at about 5/10ths. Still far too early to be useful. And the whole idea of having the car automatically stall the engine for me was just a little too frightening to tolerate.


Must be my car then (or my exceptionally smooth driving)  ... cause I can push my car to around 8/10ths... even higher in some turns, and it doesn't even kick in. Weird.

And... no, I'm not exaggerating. I've had other instructors in the car with me and even they have commented that they couldn't tell that I still hadn't disabled DSC.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Uh... DSC kicks in at 2/10ths in the M3. Virtually every time I have to make a turn from a stop, I kill DSC. Whenever I forget to do so, the car bogs. It's kind of frightening, actually.
> 
> On the xiT DSC kicked in at about 5/10ths. Still far too early to be useful. And the whole idea of having the car automatically stall the engine for me was just a little too frightening to tolerate.


No, you just aren't used to have enough POWER to kick in DSC at low speeds.  Mine never kicks in unless it is wet or sand/gravel and I get enthusiast with the throttle.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Must be my car then (or my exceptionally smooth driving)  ... cause I can push my car to around 8/10ths... even higher in some turns, and it doesn't even kick in. Weird.
> 
> And... no, I'm not exaggerating. I've had other instructors in the car with me and even they have commented that they couldn't tell that I still hadn't disabled DSC.


Then you are not getting on the throttle early enough. That's when DSC kicks in. In just hard cornering, no DSC, hard cornering plus throttle application gets the DSC in.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> No, you just aren't used to have enough POWER to kick in DSC at low speeds.  Mine never kicks in unless it is wet or sand/gravel and I get enthusiast with the throttle.


 The thing is that when I have DSC off, I hardly ever squeal tires or spin wheels. DSC is kicking in FAR before I start losing grip. It's miserable compared to the ESP in the E55 and SL55 AMG, which recognizes that that when you have enough power, a little wheel spin is just inevitable. (I actually think that the SL55's ESP is probably a little bit unaggressive for the average driver--I've been 30 degrees sideways in the DRY with it on.)

Also, one important note is that 85% of the time, DSC cuts my power WITHOUT FLASHING THE IDIOT LIGHT. For a little while, I thought something was wrong with my car, because power tended to come on strong until I hit 2500-3000 RPMs, at which point it seemed like I had a foot on the brake.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

> Uh... DSC kicks in at 2/10ths in the M3. Virtually every time I have to make a turn from a stop, I kill DSC. Whenever I forget to do so, the car bogs. It's kind of frightening, actually.


This sounds strange to me. I guess you might be exaggerating at 2/10ths ...OK, but I don't ever seen this kind of thing. Maybe you're more that 2/10ths than you think?

I agree with Pinecone, I almost never see DSC unless it's wet or I'm on gravel.



> Also, one important note is that 85% of the time, DSC cuts my power WITHOUT FLASHING THE IDIOT LIGHT.


Maybe I'll play around with it some, but whenever I get DSC I've been aware of the light.

I also drove M3's at M-School very hard with DSC on and off, and with it on it was never as intrusive as you are describing. It slowed the car and I couldn't achieve the same lap times or do some of the same things with car control that I could with it off.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> Then you are not getting on the throttle early enough. That's when DSC kicks in. In just hard cornering, no DSC, hard cornering plus throttle application gets the DSC in.


I've been driving on tracks long enough to know 'when to get on the throttle' and trust me, it's not that i'm 'not getting on the throttle early enough'.

I guess I come from the McGinn school of driving where you must be smooth. Now, I can understand if you come from the Monty school of driving that DSC will be kicking in at all times.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> I've been driving on tracks long enough to know 'when to get on the throttle' and trust me, it's not that i'm 'not getting on the throttle early enough'.
> 
> I guess I come from the McGinn school of driving where you must be smooth. Now, I can understand if you come from the Monty school of driving that DSC will be kicking in at all times.


 :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Raffi said:


> :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:


 :stupid:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> In just hard cornering, no DSC, hard cornering plus throttle application gets the DSC in.


There are many ways to kick in the various components of DSC. If you want to talk about the traction control aspect, then yes, if the system discovers wheel slippage from too much throttle input, it will regulate that part.

Simply saying DSC won't kick in during hard cornering is incorrect. Overcook a turn-in and you can get it to kick in, sometimes quite easily depending on how the suspension is tuned.

If you are new to a track, new to the conditions on track, new to the car, I suggest leaving DSC on until you are comfortable and have learned your braking & turn-in points for each turn.

I've had some very new drivers leave it on and been able to knock out some very quick laps without it kicking in until they've made a mistake. My point with new drivers is to use it not only to save their ass but so that they learn when they are over extending themselves and the car. Once they learn where they are comfortable, and what the car WILL do and most importantly how to correct/prevent the situation from coming up again, then yes, turn it off. To simply let a completely clueless driver go out without the nanny on is foolish.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> There are many ways to kick in the various components of DSC. If you want to talk about the traction control aspect, then yes, if the system discovers wheel slippage from too much throttle input, it will regulate that part.
> 
> Simply saying DSC won't kick in during hard cornering is incorrect. Overcook a turn-in and you can get it to kick in, sometimes quite easily depending on how the suspension is tuned.
> 
> ...


 Just because DSC kicks in, doesn't mean the driver is over-extending himself or herself and would necessarily get in trouble without DSC. Also, by leaving DSC on, you are depriving them of an incredible opportunity to learn how to catch the car, learn the car's capabilities without the electronic nannies. DSC sucks for anyone but a brand new driver for the first couple of sessions. Since DSC will not save a driver all the time, by getting used to driving DSC, they get a false sense of security and when in trouble, they have no idea what to do. Remember Laguna Seca? If those students knew how to handle the car when the back end gets loose, I can almost guarantee they would not have crashed.

Give it up, Sergio!  :neener:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Raffi said:


> ...by getting used to driving DSC, they get a false sense of security and when in trouble, they have no idea what to do.


Disabling DSC will not instantly give them the knowledge of what to do... and the learning curve can be way too $teep for some people. Yes, LS.

Like I've said, if the driver can prove to me that they know what the car is going to do before it does it, then yes, turn DSC off. If they are clueless, and still want DSC off, then let the learning curve begin! (I hope I remember to put my neck ring on!) *Two in... two in!!!!*


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

: popcorn: : popcorn:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> : popcorn: : popcorn:


C'mon Doeboy... you can chime in too!  :rofl:


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Disabling DSC will not instantly give them the knowledge of what to do... and the learning curve can be way too $teep for some people. Yes, LS.
> 
> Like I've said, if the driver can prove to me that they know what the car is going to do before it does it, then yes, turn DSC off. If they are clueless, and still want DSC off, then let the learning curve begin! (I hope I remember to put my neck ring on!) *Two in... two in!!!!*


 Yeah, but if the electronic nannies are there, how is the driver going to prove anything to you? He's not going to have to countersteer or anything of that sort.... He (she) probably won't even know what the car is doing, when he's at the edge, if the nannies are saving his @ss all the time.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> C'mon Doeboy... you can chime in too!  :rofl:


 You need back-up for your unfounded position? :dunno:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Raffi said:


> Yeah, but if the electronic nannies are there, how is the driver going to prove anything to you?


I liken it to a leash... you don't just unhook the guy and let him run free. I like to start at a conservative pace then work up from there. I don't like $teep learning curves and I'm sure most students don't either.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> I liken it to a leash... you don't just unhook the guy and let him run free. I like to start at a conservative pace then work up from there. I don't like $teep learning curves and I'm sure most students don't either.


 You make no sense whatsoever. The learning curve does not have to be steep at all, if you start learning from the bottom up. If you only turn DSC off after you've become a B or an A student (allegedly...), then the learning curve is too steep.

And since when do you liken students to dogs on a leash?  :tsk:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Raffi said:


> You make no sense whatsoever. The learning curve does not have to be steep at all, if you start learning from the bottom up. If you only turn DSC off after you've become a B or an A student (allegedly...), then the learning curve is too steep.


Re-read this post...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=766736&postcount=12



Raffi said:


> And since when do you liken students to dogs on a leash?  :tsk:


Since I saw Seabiscuit last night... I was really thinking of horses, you know... 'racing ponies around the track'.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Re-read this post...
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=766736&postcount=12


 I read it the first time around, and you're still wrong. :neener: DSC SUCKS!


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