# The new economics of Euro Delivery



## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

namelessman said:


> What is context of 7%? In the past ED deals would be ED invoice minus ED-eligible incentives + $500(e.g.), so how is 7% computed?


ED invoice = US invoice less 7%. In the old days, anyway.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Zeichen311 said:


> ED invoice = US invoice less 7%. In the old days, anyway.


Got it, the context is ED invoice 7% reduced down to 5% less than US invoice then.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Gary J said:


> Not sure how you figure 5% plus what you negotiate "No incentives whatsoever".


My guess is "no incentives whatsoever" refers to incentives only for US-delivery.


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## CarSwami (Oct 2, 2005)

MB330 said:


> I'm a moderator on AUDI ED forum and Audi ED forum is dead for the last 5 yrs. :dunno:
> Nothing happen there. Or maybe because of me? :rofl:


I had a big smile on my face when I read your post. I did a BMW ED 10 years ago and an Audi ED this year and all I can say is that both were memorable experiences. Each program has their own pluses and minuses and I do not know if I can say that one was better than the other. I do post on the Audi forum from time to time but this is where I come when I am looking for answers to ED questions. This thread is definitely much more active than the corresponding one on the Audi forum.

At the end of the day, I love both my BMW and my Audi!


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## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

CarSwami said:


> I had a big smile on my face when I read your post. I did a BMW ED 10 years ago and an Audi ED this year and all I can say is that both were memorable experiences. Each program has their own pluses and minuses and I do not know if I can say that one was better than the other. I do post on the Audi forum from time to time but this is where I come when I am looking for answers to ED questions. This thread is definitely much more active than the corresponding one on the Audi forum.
> 
> At the end of the day, I love both my BMW and my Audi!


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

CarSwami said:


> I do post on the Audi forum from time to time but this is where I come when I am looking for answers to ED questions. This thread is definitely much more active than the corresponding one on the Audi forum.


How does this thread help with Audi ED?


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

namelessman said:


> How does this thread help with Audi ED?


I can only hope that someday Audi re-discovers the magic of the ED's they promoted ~15 years ago. I had my 2003 RS6** in Europe a month before sending it back to SoCal; one of my favorite cars and one of my most memorable ED's. I'd done an ED on a 2001 E39 M5 just 2 years earlier, and for a short while owned the RS6 & M5 concurrently. Audi builds some great cars, and their ED program far eclipsed BMW's back in the days.

If the RS4 Avant is ever available in the US I'll be the first to sign up for ED regardless of price.

** I saved about 11% from US MSRP on the RS6 ED


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## openwheelracing (Aug 1, 2008)

Gary J said:


> Not sure how you figure 5% plus what you negotiate "No incentives whatsoever".


:thumbdwn:


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## tsoc88 (Jun 27, 2007)

Ibiza said:


> Merc's ED program is limited and doesn't included the S class and high end AMG's.
> 
> As I posted this before recently, a former active forum sponsor attempted to talk me out of my third ED this past September as US delivery is cheaper. I told him that I'm not looking for cost savings from the European trip as I'm taking a vacation that month anyway, so the travel cost is a non factor. It's all about the high picking up at the Welt. BMW can get rid of the 5% base discount and I'll still be doing ED every 3rd year, cause that experience can't be matched stateside. I also enjoy tracking the vehicle from drop off. PS @Ibizaswife is also hooked on it too.
> 
> It's a shame that the 'in and out' 24 hr ED'ers ruined the 7% discount, as I remember your post from 2014. However, those customers were just squeezing buy to afford a BMW and over reaching, that they won't be repeat BMW customers next go around.


I've done 2 EDs and I doubt very much that "It's a shame that the 'in and out' 24 hr ED'ers ruined the 7% discount" BMW has cut back on a number of incentives and programs, including their basic warranty. Two of my EDs were related to business trips in Germany combined with traveling to Switzerland and France. The third, in your terms, was in and out: Intentionally booked my flight to Beijing through Munich. Took the layover time to go to the Welt, sign for the car, drove it back to the airport and onto Beijing.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> It's a shame that the 'in and out' 24 hr ED'ers ruined the 7% discount, as I remember your post from 2014. However, those customers were just squeezing buy to afford a BMW and over reaching, that they won't be repeat BMW customers next go around.


Did next-day Welt pickup(not my car) with friends back in dotcom days, it was tons of fun especially with rowdy crowds.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

tsoc88 said:


> I've done 2 EDs and I doubt very much that "It's a shame that the 'in and out' 24 hr ED'ers ruined the 7% discount" BMW has cut back on a number of incentives and programs, including their basic warranty. Two of my EDs were related to business trips in Germany combined with traveling to Switzerland and France. The third, in your terms, was in and out: Intentionally booked my flight to Beijing through Munich. Took the layover time to go to the Welt, sign for the car, drove it back to the airport and onto Beijing.


Interesting that you mention China, as we all know it's BMW AG's largest market, but unfortunately can't do ED. My feeling is if volume of US customers doing ED drops significantly, then BMW NA would be under pressure to reverse course and reinstate the 7% to match Merc's program. End of the day, ED is part of the marketing effort by BMW to drive sales, just like PCD. MSD's had already been reinstated after a few months of the May 2017 discontinuation for Northeast/current MSD customers.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

I saw plenty of non American ED people at the Welt in September. They were paying significant amounts of money for the experience. Whining Americans only getting 5% off base make me LOL.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> I saw plenty of non American ED people at the Welt in September. They were paying significant amounts of money for the experience. Whining Americans only getting 5% off base make me LOL.


The vast majority of BMW Welt customer vehicle deliveries are for people in the Germany domestic market. Cost for BMW Welt delivery in Germany is 495 ***8364; for "Compact", 655 ***8364; for "Premium", and 845 ***8364; for "Premium Advanced".

The ED program provided by BMW of NA to U.S. customers is closest to "Premium" in the Germany domestic market.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

gkr778 said:


> The vast majority of BMW Welt customer vehicle deliveries are for people in the Germany domestic market. Cost for BMW Welt delivery in Germany is 495 ***8364; for "Compact", 655 ***8364; for "Premium", and 845 ***8364; for "Premium Advanced".
> 
> The ED program provided by BMW of NA to U.S. customers is closest to "Premium" in the Germany domestic market.


Any description of the differences among the 3 levels of delivery?

Interestingly, UK customers can no longer do Welt delivery.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Any description of the differences among the 3 levels of delivery?
> 
> Interestingly, UK customers can no longer do Welt delivery.


Here is the English link: https://www.bmw-welt.com/en/automobile_delivery.html

Attached is a comparison chart of the 3 programs for the German market; US customers have the limo pick-up (value euro 180) and full tank of petrol (value close to 100 USD) from Premium Advanced and remaining activities are from Premium.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Here is the English link: https://www.bmw-welt.com/en/automobile_delivery.html
> 
> Attached is a comparison chart of the 3 programs for the German market; US customers have the limo pick-up (value euro 180) and full tank of petrol (value close to 100 USD) from Premium Advanced and remaining activities are from Premium.


This is great info.:thumbup: It looks like none of 3 levels have factory tours, does it mean factory is closed for touring?


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

namelessman said:


> This is great info.:thumbup: It looks like none of 3 levels have factory tours, does it mean factory is closed for touring?


Right at the bottom is says BMW group plant for the 2 higher tiers, which is the factory tour (read the footnote).


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

CTSoxFan said:


> Right at the bottom is says BMW group plant for the 2 higher tiers, which is the factory tour (read the footnote).


Got it, thanks. So my experience was welt compact(with UK friend) and pre-welt premium(with US friends for 24-hour pickups). 

160 euros extra to get into museum and factory tour is not cheap.

Is there any headcount limit for museum and factory tours nowadays? In the pre-welt premium experience, 4 of us went together.

Another 190 euros extra for chaffeur and dining for 2 is not bad if it is Michelin 3-star.  . And can chaffeur pick up 4 people?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Got it, thanks. So my experience was welt compact(with UK friend) and pre-welt premium(with US friends for 24-hour pickups).
> 
> 160 euros extra to get into museum and factory tour is not cheap.
> 
> ...


Both Premiums include the virtual presentation.

BMW NA advices you to contact the Welt in advance to reserve the daily English tour at 11:45am.

No limit on Museum entrance, but it is closed on Mondays.

Restaurant Bavarie is not a Michelin 2 star restaurant, as the cost of the Chefs 3 course lunch menu is € 42,00. https://static.feinkost-kaefer.de/media/pdf/bb/9c/f4/MenuBavarie-10-2017.pdf


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Both Premiums include the virtual presentation.
> 
> BMW NA advices you to contact the Welt in advance to reserve the daily English tour at 11:45am.
> 
> ...


So out of €190, the chaffeur service is worth €100, while UberX munich airport to welt should be around €50, and UberBlack/Van is around €85. For the experience maybe the Premium Advance is A-OK after all.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

m3m3m3 said:


> So would a m550 be a free allocation when it is ED?
> 
> Thanks


Yes for free allocation for M550. Only full on M's are given back to BMW NA.


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## Oaktree (Dec 29, 2007)

Ive done two ED***8217;s, last one was a 1M, want to do another one with the fam and love/hate hearing this. The last inquiry I made was my wife***8217;s 16***8217; 340 and my guy said they could give a better discount based on corporate pricing and US discounts. Before, it was an easy choice to do ED. Glad I***8217;m not completely crazy but the fact is it appears it***8217;s less of a price thing now and mostly experience.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Haven't been around here much since I sold my bimmer. However, I do think it is a shame that BMWNA is undermining the ED program.

1. I think ED customers are excellent evangelists for the brand. I personally know 5 people who purchased BMWs via ED who never in a million years would have purchased a BMW at all. But when I explained the program to them and the experience and the pricing advantages they all took the plunge. 

2. To me the ED experience and the pricing advantage was one of the key benefits to BMW ownership va other makers. There are lots of great drivers cars out there. This last go around I leased an Alfa Romeo. I love the car. I told myself I would see what BMW does with the G20 3-series when my lease is up and make a decision. However, with the decline in the ED program there is much less incentive to do so. A real shame as I wouldn't mind doing another ED next summer. probably won't happen.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Too bad pricing was the deciding factor.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Too bad pricing was the deciding factor.


Ultimately, the recent degradation of BMW of NA's European Delivery program relates to lower value to the customer: since I did ED in 2013, the cost went up but benefits remain largely unchanged. In other words, y'all doing ED now will pay more, but not get more in return.


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## soledoc (Feb 5, 2007)

gkr778 said:


> Ultimately, the recent degradation of BMW of NA's European Delivery program relates to lower value to the customer: since I did ED in 2013, the cost went up but benefits remain largely unchanged. In other words, y'all doing ED now will pay more, but not get more in return.


I just came back from my fourth ED since I started driving BMW in 2009. I do it for the thrill and enjoyment. It is pure pleasure flying over to Munich going to the Welt and being introduced to your car. Driving your car in Europe is an amazing experience you can't put a price on. My son came with me on my first one at age 6. He just did his third at age 15.

I got a very good deal on my car. Very fair indeed. Plus $1000 back from BMW CCA. I travel a lot to Europe and visit friends there and they think it's an amazing thing to do and IT iS! Do it because you love the experience. I've bought 7 BMWS. 5 new (4 ED and 1 PCD) and two used. I'm a fan of the brand and always will be. I'll continue doing ED. Even with 0% discount. And even without the free picture (they took that away....so what. They took my picture with my camera and it's fine).

So people stop focusing on the negatives. Do what you want of course but ED is, was, and always will Be an amazing experience that will provide wonderful memories for all your life.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> Ultimately, the recent degradation of BMW of NA's European Delivery program relates to lower value to the customer: since I did ED in 2013, the cost went up but benefits remain largely unchanged. In other words, y'all doing ED now will pay more, but not get more in return.


Again, Too bad pricing was the deciding factor.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

soledoc said:


> I just came back from my fourth ED since I started driving BMW in 2009. I do it for the thrill and enjoyment. It is pure pleasure flying over to Munich going to the Welt and being introduced to your car. Driving your car in Europe is an amazing experience you can't put a price on. My son came with me on my first one at age 6. He just did his third at age 15.
> 
> I got a very good deal on my car. Very fair indeed. Plus $1000 back from BMW CCA. I travel a lot to Europe and visit friends there and they think it's an amazing thing to do and IT iS! Do it because you love the experience. I've bought 7 BMWS. 5 new (4 ED and 1 PCD) and two used. I'm a fan of the brand and always will be. I'll continue doing ED. Even with 0% discount. And even without the free picture (they took that away....so what. They took my picture with my camera and it's fine).
> 
> ...


Nice story where price was not the deciding factor.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

In my case I'm not sure I would say that price was the deciding factor per se, but it was definitely an important part of the equation. I go to Europe regularly enough where the trip is great and fun and all but I have plenty of other opportunities for travel.

I think the ED pricing shifts also has to be put into the broader context of BMWNA pricing and product/marketing strategy overall. For example, the substantial decline in the flexibility of options such as forcing me to buy a $4000 package just to get LEDs, forcing me to buy navigation package just for the pleasure of paying another $300 for apple carplay. 

It used to be the BMWs were so much better as drivers cars relative to the competition that you were willing to put up with a lot of that stuff. Those days are gone. The 3-series is no where near the best driver's car in its segment. So why deal the BS?

I haven't sworn off BMW. My Alfa lease will be up in 14 months and I'll evaluate my options at that point.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

soledoc said:


> I just came back from my fourth ED since I started driving BMW in 2009. I do it for the thrill and enjoyment. It is pure pleasure flying over to Munich going to the Welt and being introduced to your car. Driving your car in Europe is an amazing experience you can't put a price on. My son came with me on my first one at age 6. He just did his third at age 15.


I do understand this. If I bought another BMW, it would be ED - but for me, that is just saving money on a car rental which I will need anyway since I go over there on my dime at least twice a year and also other times on company's dime. This year, as of now, I might end up doing 6 flights total - some to VCE and some to MUC.

One more thing ... I do not need to drive a BMW to fully enjoy driving in EU. Some of the best memories about driving Overthere I have with Ford Focus 1.5 diesel with 120 hp from back in 2014. Driving my E92 was fun, but I also couldn't relax as much as I do with rental cars. And do with them (rentals) what here would be categorized as very stupid stuff - Overthere, it is just called "driving"


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Again, Too bad pricing was the deciding factor.


Yeah, it's unfortunate that BMW of NA gutted the ED program to make that the deciding factor for a lot of U.S. customers.


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## soledoc (Feb 5, 2007)

So how's the Alfa Romeo compared to the BMW. is this a good driver's car?


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

soledoc said:


> So people stop focusing on the negatives. Do what you want of course but ED is, was, and always will Be an amazing experience that will provide wonderful memories for all your life.


It is indeed a wonderful experience and I have fond memories of my vehicle delivery and visit to Bavaria in August 2013. And I'm sure the experience is still wonderful. No debate on that.

However, for a U.S. customer considering a new BMW automobile and evaluating ED, PCD, sold order, or new vehicle selection from dealer inventory, current market dynamics and opportunity costs make the ED alternatives more favorable compared to three, four, or five years ago. That's the core concept in the title of this thread, "The new economics of Euro Delivery".


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> Yeah, it's unfortunate that BMW of NA gutted the ED program to make that the deciding factor for a lot of U.S. customers.


I found it less easy to get my slot last time. Less crowded Welt would be nice so save your pennies, Jr.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> I found it less easy to get my slot last time. Less crowded Welt would be nice so save your pennies, Jr.


You can have my pennies and Euro Cent coins; I'm not heading to BMW Welt anytime soon.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Gary J said:


> I found it less easy to get my slot last time. Less crowded Welt would be nice so save your pennies, Jr.


I've always been granted my first choice of dates, as have friends and family. Did you give the Welt ample leadtime?


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

dkreidel said:


> I've always been granted my first choice of dates, as have friends and family. Did you give the Welt ample leadtime?


Months. In fact I got late morning instead of the early morning I wanted on my date.

And there was plenty of activity so I think slots are being filled just less of them by whining Americans. I think BMW probably has pricing models (sort of like Amazon) that maximize utilization of the Welt to the degree they want and with regard to production schedules.


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## RDL53 (Jun 5, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> It is indeed a wonderful experience and I have fond memories of my vehicle delivery and visit to Bavaria in August 2013. And I'm sure the experience is still wonderful. No debate on that.


We did ED July 2013 which I believe was a pinnacle for Welt and ED.

Again like you there is no ED in the future for us, even considering the economics of this program the G12 we were considering left us under whelmed.


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## VIZSLA (Mar 16, 2007)

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RDL53 said:


> We did ED July 2013 which I believe was a pinnacle for Welt and ED.
> 
> Again like you there is no ED in the future for us, even considering the economics of this program the G12 we were considering left us under whelmed.


Having done two Eds and having enjoyed them thoroughly I have to say that it's more the change in the cars than in the program that will have me buying elsewhere.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Gary J said:


> Months. In fact I got late morning instead of the early morning I wanted on my date.
> 
> And there was plenty of activity so I think slots are being filled just less of them by whining Americans. I think BMW probably has pricing models (sort of like Amazon) that maximize utilization of the Welt to the degree they want and with regard to production schedules.


The Welt has always been receptive to my preferred ED date, mater of fact, the only date provided has always been honored. Like the old saying "it's not what you know, but who you know." I'm sure that BMW NA tracks repeat customers and wouldn't be surprised that the high value customers always get first choice of dates.

Production schedules is not correct, as my last ED had a Individual paint and finished production 11 weeks prior to Welt pick-up.


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## Nikolas (Jul 10, 2007)

I***8217;m doing my first ED on my second BMW. I had a giant gap of 8 years between purchases and still got my preferred delivery date. Pricing wasn***8217;t awful, but really excited for the experience.


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

I leave for my third ED this coming Sunday. It still feels like Christmas to me but the lessened value probably means this will be my last one. It was a long, tough battle convincing my recently retired wife to do this again with our reduced income but it's our last chance to live it up a bit. It beats buying a $125,000 RV to like so many of my retired friends have done. I'll still return to visit Europe every chance I get. Now it'll be toured by rental car or rail pass. Since I can get a better deal on a BMW on the lot and wouldn't have to wait weeks for my car to reach America (meanwhile still making payments on the old and the new car) if I do buy another BMW, it won't be through ED. Sniff sniff. I'll miss the exclusivity of the Welt lounge and the VIP treatment but the program seems to be cutting back on that along with the other perks. Just like the airline industry I once worked in. Sadly, for some of us money matters.


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## RDL53 (Jun 5, 2013)

Nikolas said:


> I'm doing my first ED on my second BMW. I had a giant gap of 8 years between purchases and still got my preferred delivery date. Pricing wasn't awful, but really excited for the experience.


You'll have a great time.

Hopefully you have allocated a couple weeks to drive around Europe, preferably northern Italy.


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## soledoc (Feb 5, 2007)

RDL53 said:


> You'll have a great time.
> 
> Hopefully you have allocated a couple weeks to drive around Europe, preferably northern Italy.


I'd be curious to hear some of these "bad" ED deals compared to cars ordered stateside or cars on the lot. I will pull out my deal specifics and post it. I can't really imagine I got such a bad deal doing it with ED.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Nikolas (Jul 10, 2007)

RDL53 said:


> You'll have a great time.
> 
> Hopefully you have allocated a couple weeks to drive around Europe, preferably northern Italy.


Yes, two weeks, of traveling. We like to have a base and do day trips, so Munich for two nights, Zell am See for four nights, Garmisch Partenkirchen for four nights then four nights with the cousins in Fulda for lots of beer drinking. Return in Frankfurt. End of May can't arrive fast enough.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

soledoc said:


> I'd be curious to hear some of these "bad" ED deals compared to cars ordered stateside or cars on the lot. I will pull out my deal specifics and post it. I can't really imagine I got such a bad deal doing it with ED.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Bad deals are a personal problem but whiners gonna whine. And yes preferred date is easy, for preferred time call early for best chance.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

dkreidel said:


> Whining is in the eye of the beholder; I haven't seen any whining in this thread...except yours about whiners :rofl:


We'll see what happens next go around in 2020, if there is one.


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

soledoc said:


> I'd be curious to hear some of these "bad" ED deals compared to cars ordered stateside or cars on the lot. I will pull out my deal specifics and post it. I can't really imagine I got such a bad deal doing it with ED.


I don't think the issue is "bad deals" - it's the narrowing of the spread between all-in price ED vs all-in price USD. With a larger spread one could justify the cost of the vacation, making it either a "free" vacation or a vacation with a "cheap" BMW. Now that's more of a challenge.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

soledoc said:


> I'd be curious to hear some of these "bad" ED deals compared to cars ordered stateside or cars on the lot. I will pull out my deal specifics and post it. I can't really imagine I got such a bad deal doing it with ED.


When you post the specifics of your ED deal, also post the best possible deal you could have negotiated if your car was regular sold order or PCD, and/or a similar new BMW car purchased from dealer inventory. Thanks!


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

gkr778 said:


> When you post the specifics of your ED deal, also post the best possible deal you could have negotiated if your car was regular sold order or PCD, and/or a similar new BMW car purchased from dealer inventory. Thanks!


Sept 2017: ED 2018 M4 convertible , capital cost $83,175 ($100 BELOW ED invoice), MRSP of $94,185, doc fee of $699, buy ED MF (9/17) of 0.00181. Deals are still out there, but this was bundled with a $114,695 MRSP 2018 X5M PCD at $102,360 capital cost- economics of scale pricing due to the fact I have purchased 5 BMW's from this Center over the past 6 years. In 2020 when the M4 lease is up, I'll have an other invoice ED M4 or 8 series.

Purchasing from dealership was never a thought due to the individual paint color and full leather exterior- as most M4's are 'stripper' Alpine white with extended leather in the lots- not full leather.

I consider ED as a opportunity cost, as this September's vacation will be to Scotland for golf after a 2 week Puglia region vacation in July.

Mater of fact, I paid for a 2 day rental car my last ED after Welt pick-up as I drove my M4 vert straight to the tuner for a Stage II tune from the Welt and then did a 2 day BMW professional driving security training at the BMW Academy while the my ED vehicle had a flash bench tune, catless downpipes and BMC airfilter install. Totally worth it!


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

gkr778 said:


> When you post the specifics of your ED deal, also post the best possible deal you could have negotiated if your car was regular sold order or PCD, and/or a similar new BMW car purchased from dealer inventory. Thanks!


^^^ This type of analysis is what prompted me to start this thread. On 16 prior ED's the economics favored ED; but #17 swung towards domestic delivery from an economic perspective.

I went ahead with the ED #17 for non-economic reasons, and will likely do 1 or 2 more, but I may also purchase lease domestic as now the savings from a domestic deal will finance a non-ED vacation. Weird.


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## jlstone (Sep 7, 2006)

I also looked at the economics of Euro delivery for my possible #13 and #14 Euro deliveries this past December. After pricing both options of a buy off the lot vs Euro delivery on a M4 convertible and a M550 I had to go with my wallet and buy off the lot. I used the $12,000 savings to take my family on vacation. The new economics of not doing Euro delivery.


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## Nikolas (Jul 10, 2007)

Having never done a European Delivery, but have driven several times in Europe, I think the experience of taking your own car, spec'd to your liking on a trip through the alps is priceless. I could have saved about $3500 (incentives) or so doing a domestic delivery (not locally), which I think is a small price to pay. When you consider that savings on MSRP for a lease, that equates to about $140/month more.


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## GerWil (Dec 18, 2006)

Nikolas said:


> Having never done a European Delivery, but have driven several times in Europe, I think the experience of taking your own car, spec'd to your liking on a trip through the alps is priceless. I could have saved about $3500 (incentives) or so doing a domestic delivery (not locally), which I think is a small price to pay. When you consider that savings on MSRP for a lease, that equates to about $140/month more.


I do not see how you can save $140 on a lease, The loss of the incentives eats up any cap cost reduction from the 5% ED savings. The money market rate for a ED lease is also higher by .00030 because of the waiver of the first month payment.
I have an ED lease on a 2016 340i expiring in August and have decided to do a US delivery on its replacement. Maybe I'm rationalizing, but driving in Europe in a rental car is not the worst thing. I rented a Seat recently on a trip to southern Spain and driving in some of the old town areas, with narrow streets, is not fun and I would not have been happy doing it in a new BMW; plus it did not use up any lease miles.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

jlstone said:


> I also looked at the economics of Euro delivery for my possible #13 and #14 Euro deliveries this past December. After pricing both options of a buy off the lot vs Euro delivery on a M4 convertible and a M550 I had to go with my wallet and buy off the lot. I used the $12,000 savings to take my family on vacation. The new economics of not doing Euro delivery.


I also looked at the economics of Euro delivery vs. a very expensive family vacation and did both. I also saw a very busy Welt. Must be a lot of locals - you know, the ones those pay BMW for the Welt Experience instead of getting a discount and can tour Europe anytime they want. :eeps:


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## Nikolas (Jul 10, 2007)

GerWil said:


> I do not see how you can save $140 on a lease, The loss of the incentives eats up any cap cost reduction from the 5% ED savings. The money market rate for a ED lease is also higher by .00030 because of the waiver of the first month payment.
> I have an ED lease on a 2016 340i expiring in August and have decided to do a US delivery on its replacement. Maybe I'm rationalizing, but driving in Europe in a rental car is not the worst thing. I rented a Seat recently on a trip to southern Spain and driving in some of the old town areas, with narrow streets, is not fun and I would not have been happy doing it in a new BMW; plus it did not use up any lease miles.


You mis read. ED lease is more. It would be less if I did it domestic. I want the ED experience. Maybe I do it once, maybe not. The added cost is not a factor in my decision. I just crunched the numbers on lease hacker and it's more like $110 more expensive doing ED lease. Your results may vary.


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## RDL53 (Jun 5, 2013)

Gary J said:


> I also looked at the economics of Euro delivery vs. a very expensive family vacation and did both. I also saw a very busy Welt. Must be a lot of locals - you know, the ones those pay BMW for the Welt Experience instead of getting a discount and can tour Europe anytime they want. :eeps:


Everybody who loves BMW, Mercedes.....and the driving experience should do ED at least once in their life time.

Our trip in '13 ranks at the top for smiles and awesome memories.:thumbup:


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## the_fox (Jul 6, 2006)

These days some incentives are regional; some apply to ED, some don’t. I was able to apply both owner loyalty and a financing incentive to my ED. So make sure you and your CA always read the fine print regarding each current program and don’t buy into blanket statements such as “ED excludes all incentives”.


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## GerWil (Dec 18, 2006)

Nikolas said:


> You mis read. ED lease is more. It would be less if I did it domestic. I want the ED experience. Maybe I do it once, maybe not. The added cost is not a factor in my decision. I just crunched the numbers on lease hacker and it's more like $110 more expensive doing ED lease. Your results may vary.


Sorry I mis read


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

I saw very busy picking up cars activity - didn't think I had to spell that out but there you go.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> I saw very busy picking up cars activity - didn't think I had to spell that out but there you go.


Thank you sir. That's as it always has been. Even if BMW of NA and BMW Canada eliminate their European Delivery programs entirely, Germany domestic market customers will keep the BMW Welt vehicle pickup operation very active.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> Thank you sir. That's as it always has been. Even if BMW of NA and BMW Canada eliminate their European Delivery programs entirely, Germany domestic market customers will keep the BMW Welt vehicle pickup operation very active.


Exactly. Apparently remains very popular with paying domestics and less so with whining North Americans getting less of a discount.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Gary J said:


> Exactly. Apparently remains very popular with paying domestics and less so with whining North Americans getting less of a discount.


Gary, you do know major dealerships in Munich charge domestic buyers a fee to pick up their new cars at the dealership - like Neiderlassung Frankfurter Ring - so the choice is pay for the Welt or pay for the dealership. I don't know the cost delta


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

dkreidel said:


> Gary, you do know major dealerships in Munich charge domestic buyers a fee to pick up their new cars at the dealership - like Neiderlassung Frankfurter Ring - so the choice is pay for the Welt or pay for the dealership. I don't know the cost delta


BMW AG Niederlassung München partner locations have a 890 ***8364; transport and registration charge on new vehicle deliveries, included in the posted sale price. In the Germany domestic market, cost of BMW Welt pickup ranges from 495 ***8364; for "Compact" to 845 ***8364; for "Premium Advanced".

I don't know if the standard transport and registration fee is waived for domestic customers who choose one of the Welt pickup options.


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## Nikolas (Jul 10, 2007)

GerWil said:


> Sorry I mis read


No worries.


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

: popcorn:


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## RDL53 (Jun 5, 2013)

We saved a chunk of money on ED back in '13.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

RDL53 said:


> We saved a chunk of money on ED back in '13.


We all had your deal circa 2015.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

Ibiza said:


> We all had your deal circa 2015.


I just went back and looked at my 2013 ED deal on my 550 M-Sport

MSRP of $84,695
Selling Price $72,435 (Inv +$1,000 less $2,250 in rebates)
$775/month+tax with nothing down and rolling fees into the lease.

Not likely to see anything like that anytime soon (strong residual plus 7 MSDs)

For compare, with nothing down my M3 ED in June will have a payment of $945/month + tax on a car that has a MSRP $2,500 less.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Posts deleted.

Be nice.


----------



## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

Rich_Jenkins said:


> Posts deleted.
> 
> *Be nice*.


Bold added

Be nice


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## RDL53 (Jun 5, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> We all had your deal circa 2015.


The good ole days.


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## Prost (Nov 23, 2005)

RDL53 said:


> The good ole days.


Yes indeed, ED of $340 a month (lease, 24m/20K 82% residual and 7 MSDs) for Z4sDrive35iS back in 2011, $11K (multiple incentives) saving for 2011 535i and $500 a month (36/10K, 7 MSDs and ED invoice price) for 2013 M3 is well, the good good old days


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

No free photos. No complimentary bottles of water for the road. No bottle of Sekt this time. But at least the safety vests are still free.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Gluhwein said:


> No free photos. No complimentary bottles of water for the road. No bottle of Sekt this time.


Man it's a rough life. Good thing I had plenty of liquids from the lounge.


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## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2012)

Ibiza said:


> Merc's ED program is limited and doesn't included the S class and high end AMG's.
> 
> As I posted this before recently, a former active forum sponsor attempted to talk me out of my third ED this past September as US delivery is cheaper. I told him that I'm not looking for cost savings from the European trip as I'm taking a vacation that month anyway, so the travel cost is a non factor. It's all about the high picking up at the Welt. BMW can get rid of the 5% base discount and I'll still be doing ED every 3rd year, cause that experience can't be matched stateside. I also enjoy tracking the vehicle from drop off. PS @Ibizaswife is also hooked on it too.
> 
> It's a shame that the 'in and out' 24 hr ED'ers ruined the 7% discount, as I remember your post from 2014. However, those customers were just squeezing buy to afford a BMW and over reaching, that they won't be repeat BMW customers next go around.


THE program was intended to enjoy driving your own vehicle on a EUROPEAN vacation.
So many people did it just to save a buck and AG caught on to this when people were
flying in, signing the papers and giving the vehicle back to ship....a bunch of mooches
ruined it for everyone else who enjoyed the program for which it was intended.


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

While some things have gone away (free photo), they do include 2 vests now. I asked for some 3 years ago and they had some to give (others weren't always as lucky), but now they give you a card to redeem at the gift shop for 2 vests along with the card to get your engraved key chain.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> THE program was intended to enjoy driving your own vehicle on a EUROPEAN vacation.
> 
> So many people did it just to save a buck and AG caught on to this when people were
> 
> ...


John,

Did you have any clients who did this, fly in and out? CA's and BMWNA ED department shouldn't have allowed this, as clients submit the drop-off in advance. It was the BMW NA/AG allowing pick-up from the Welt for a fee.

Going forward the experience loyal brand customers will continue with ED.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Gary J said:


> True that. And all it leaves is whining whiners.


Why do you continue to 'whine'? Must have been raised at an early age to get you way?


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

frank325 said:


> While some things have gone away (free photo), they do include 2 vests now. I asked for some 3 years ago and they had some to give (others weren't always as lucky), but now they give you a card to redeem at the gift shop for 2 vests along with the card to get your engraved key chain.


Regarding the vest, they have always given them to you, since it's law in Germany to have safety vest in the car in case you have to pull over on the side of the road. In fact our vest are still in the car.


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## Shon528 (Oct 3, 2003)

Gluhwein said:


> Agreed
> 
> That's why on my last ED I basically just did a two week trip around the circumference of the state Bavaria of Bavaria with a slight detour into the Czech Republic. We tried to spend two nights in each locale. And we still did over 2000 miles of driving. It was possibly my favorite vacation ever. I'll save visits to Italy and France for other vacations. * I don't mind driving but 5-8 hours of highway driving just to get to the next big city isn't my thing anymore.* I prefer the less traveled back roads.


I'm with you on that on. NYC is only ~4hr drive from here and I don't even bother doing that anymore. A quick flight runs ~100 r/t. Door to door is about the same amount of time but these days I'd rather relax on a plane than sit behind the wheel.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

CTSoxFan said:


> Both my EDs were two week trips, and I felt like I needed a weeks vacation to recover from my vacation.


That can be said about many vacations. However, if you add to it what seems like frantic rhythm of driving or even just walking for people going there the first time, tiny spaces, something that looks "important" everywhere and, not the last, jet lag ... it can get challenging.

I grew up there and go back there multiple times every year for family visits or work. With age (and experience - meaning, I saw most of it already), I by far prefer staying at least 10 miles away from anything that has more than 100,000 population. I also perfectly understand people who think this trip might be the only occasion to be there - yes, you should see city centers in Europe, no matter how much aggravation you will have to suffer for it if this is your one-and-done trip.


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## remythic (Sep 18, 2018)

Dang, so 5% off US MSRP is the best you can do for an ED? There's no negotiating from the invoice? I'm guessing after reading all the previous posts, it would make more sense to just purchase a US delivery? 

I'm one of those who are stretching to try and get an ED for the experience, but if the savings from a US delivery allows for a Europe trip, I'll have to reconsider. I've been wanting to do an ED since I started working at Audi in Jan 2014, but was laid off due to their scandal and have been trying to get back on my feet since. Now that I'm able to possibly buy the car I want, ED changed quite a bit. =\ Such is life. My timing always seems to miss the opportunities.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

remythic said:


> Dang, so 5% off US MSRP is the best you can do for an ED? There's no negotiating from the invoice? I'm guessing after reading all the previous posts, it would make more sense to just purchase a US delivery?
> 
> I'm one of those who are stretching to try and get an ED for the experience, but if the savings from a US delivery allows for a Europe trip, I'll have to reconsider. I've been wanting to do an ED since I started working at Audi in Jan 2014, but was laid off due to their scandal and have been trying to get back on my feet since. Now that I'm able to possibly buy the car I want, ED changed quite a bit. =\ Such is life. My timing always seems to miss the opportunities.


Although it is changed, it still isn't a BAD deal, it just isn't a great deal like it used to be and you can usually get the same deal doing a standard US delivery (it depends on the model of car and the currently available incentives). You still negotiate from invoice, but your starting point is 5% below US MSRP instead of 7%. So if you do an invoice +$500 deal, you are getting the 5% ED reduction then another ~6% discount (depending on the price of the car) for a discount of 11% off US MSRP. The biggest change however is that none of the incentives offered (lease cash, loyalty, etc.) are eligible with ED (except the BMWCCA rebate). As an example:

My 2013 ED (550xi) was a $84K car that I was able to get for $72K (invoice +$1K with $2500 of incentives).

Conversely, the ED I just did on my M3 was a $82K car that I was able to get for $76K (invoice +$2K, no incentives allowed). Had I done a US delivery and taken the available incentives at the time, it would've been a wash as the 5% discount off the base MSRP was roughly equivalent to the available incentives at the time.

*Most important point: If you've never done an ED, the experience is totally worth it.* I have never read of anyone who did an ED and came back disappointed. ED now is purely for the experience, not for a financial gain, but I would 110% recommend doing it.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

remythic said:


> I've been wanting to do an ED since I started working at Audi in Jan 2014, but was laid off due to their scandal and have been trying to get back on my feet since. Now that I'm able to possibly buy the car I want, ED changed quite a bit.


Welcome to Bimmerfest, remythic! If BMW of NA's gutted European Delivery program doesn't meet your needs, Performance Center Delivery in South Carolina or California is another option, and a great experience too.

When you worked at Audi, was it at the Audi of America, LLC HQ in Northern Virginia?


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## remythic (Sep 18, 2018)

gkr778 said:


> Welcome to Bimmerfest, remythic! If BMW of NA's gutted European Delivery program doesn't meet your needs, Performance Center Delivery in South Carolina or California is another option, and a great experience too.
> 
> When you worked at Audi, was it at the Audi of America, LLC HQ in Northern Virginia?


Thanks! I worked in San Francisco, CA. There's an office out there and we focused on infotainment testing and development for the NA Region. Their style of employment is about 70% contractors and I was full time at a German company they contracted with (if that makes sense). Those that did get hired full time (after contracting for 3+ years) worked full time with VWGoA, but the teams worked on all brands except Lamborghini and Bugatti.

So the current problem I have with the dealerships located in Northern California is, no one is budging from the 5% off the US MSRP. I'm not sure how to go about starting from invoice, I've seen the calculation on the 0.92 / 0.93 etc, but how do I hold this as a valid argument from data I got from a forum? First time negotiating as well, got all the cards against me, haha.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

remythic said:


> Thanks! I worked in San Francisco, CA. There's an office out there and we focused on infotainment testing and development for the NA Region. Their style of employment is about 70% contractors and I was full time at a German company they contracted with (if that makes sense). Those that did get hired full time (after contracting for 3+ years) worked full time with VWGoA, but the teams worked on all brands except Lamborghini and Bugatti.
> 
> So the current problem I have with the dealerships located in Northern California is, no one is budging from the 5% off the US MSRP. I'm not sure how to go about starting from invoice, I've seen the calculation on the 0.92 / 0.93 etc, but how do I hold this as a valid argument from data I got from a forum? First time negotiating as well, got all the cards against me, haha.


Reach out to a board sponsor like Greg Poland down at Pacific BMW in Glendale. I've bought 2 cars from him (including my last ED) and would highly recommend (as would other members here). It's not a long ride, and a great way to get reacquainted with your new ride after ED. You can also try David P up in Portland (a bit longer ride) and MJBrown62 in Seattle (a really long ride lol). There are a couple of others as well.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

CTSoxFan said:


> Although it is changed, it still isn't a BAD deal, it just isn't a great deal like it used to be


I suspect (whining) N. Americans will lose at least some of the 5% to make it closer to the Europeans deal who actually PAY a premium for the Welt delivery experience. In that case I will still do it.


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## sno_duc (Sep 3, 2008)

Gary J said:


> I suspect (whining) N. Americans will lose at least some of the 5% to make it closer to the Europeans deal who actually PAY a premium for the Welt delivery experience. In that case I will still do it.


Like Porsche? (no break on MSRP, use to cost more for an ED)

Yes we have done an ED that started in Zuffenhausen.
Plus you have to, depending on dealer, make a refundable VAT deposit.
Still it was worth it.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Audi canceled their European delivery program


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

eazy said:


> Audi canceled their European delivery program...


 For the third time.

Don't worry, when the next recession is in full tilt they'll reinstate it. Again.


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## 808dakine (Jul 21, 2016)

dkreidel said:


> For the third time.
> 
> Don't worry, when the next recession is in full tilt they'll reinstate it. Again.


In the meantime, check out Volvo's OSD program. Sad to say, it is a more complete program then our beloved ED.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

sno_duc said:


> Like Porsche? (no break on MSRP, use to cost more for an ED)
> 
> Yes we have done an ED that started in Zuffenhausen.
> Plus you have to, depending on dealer, make a refundable VAT deposit.
> Still it was worth it.


When stuff hit the fan basically 2-3 weeks after I placed ED order for Zuffenhausen delivery, I had to cancel it and take delivery here, in U.S.

That still burns, after 2 1/2 years, so much that I basically decided to create my own damn ED and ship the Cayman over to Amsterdam, Rotterdam or maybe even Antwerp for a two week vacation, maybe even longer. Haven't made appointments yet, but I am about 85% to go through with it.

Long story short ... some cars are NOT made to be driven in U.S. If at all possible, do yourselves and your cars a favor to at least once experience them where they should be running. And I do not mean Autobahn by that. Those in doubt, check Google for "Alpenstrasse". Or "Napoleon road" if you prefer ratatouille over sauerkraut


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## miata13 (Nov 22, 2007)

808dakine said:


> In the meantime, check out Volvo's OSD program. Sad to say, it is a more complete program then our beloved ED.


I can recommend Volvo's OSD program having done it in 2005. Volvo's Delivery Center, adjacent to their Gothenburg factory is nothing like The Welt but still a great experience if a Volvo is in your future. The free/included round trip airfare for 2 plus arrival hotel night stay, is a great benefit and driving in Scandinavia is very enjoyable too.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

miata13 said:


> I can recommend Volvo's OSD program having done it in 2005. Volvo's Delivery Center, adjacent to their Gothenburg factory is nothing like The Welt but still a great experience if a Volvo is in your future. The free/included round trip airfare for 2 plus arrival hotel night stay, is a great benefit and driving in Scandinavia is very enjoyable too.


Volvo HAS TO have a superior ED. Most know why.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

miata13 said:


> I can recommend Volvo's OSD program having done it in 2005. Volvo's Delivery Center, adjacent to their Gothenburg factory is nothing like The Welt but still a great experience if a Volvo is in your future. The free/included round trip airfare for 2 plus arrival hotel night stay, is a great benefit and driving in Scandinavia is very enjoyable too.


I'm hoping things have changed in 13 years....


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

dkreidel said:


> For the third time.
> 
> Don't worry, when the next recession is in full tilt they'll reinstate it. Again.


Lol, so so true.

Does anybody do BMW Euro Delivery any longer (buyers)? So so sad.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

Jon Shafer said:


> Lol, so so true.
> 
> Does anybody do BMW Euro Delivery any longer (buyers)? So so sad.


I did one in June, and it is still a great experience. Unfortunately they have removed the financial benefits from doing a ED, so it really is all about the experience. I think you'll see the take rate go down significantly now that you can basically get the same (or better) deal doing standard delivery, which is a shame because I have never heard of anyone coming back from an ED wishing they hadn't done it.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Jon Shafer said:


> Lol, so so true.
> 
> Does anybody do BMW Euro Delivery any longer (buyers)? So so sad.


Jon good to see you back! I personally think there are two mind thoughts when it comes to doing an ED, many people did it because the saving, but what kind of savings did people really have when you factor in the cost of going to Europe for X days, others like myself, was being able to take a vacation in MY car in Europe. I was lucky that I had a over 5 Million points from Airlines and Hotels to use so our trip so this helped defer the cost. If I still believed in the BMW brand I would be doing another ED, but I am not.


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

dkreidel said:


> For the third time.
> 
> Don't worry, when the next recession is in full tilt they'll reinstate it. Again.


Why? Please explain. I was recently looking to do an Audi ED for the wife's car and discovered they had cancelled it.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## visi107 (Mar 20, 2013)

Eagle11 said:


> Jon good to see you back! I personally think there are two mind thoughts when it comes to doing an ED, many people did it because the saving, but what kind of savings did people really have when you factor in the cost of going to Europe for X days, others like myself, was being able to take a vacation in MY car in Europe. I was lucky that I had a over 5 Million points from Airlines and Hotels to use so our trip so this helped defer the cost. If I still believed in the BMW brand I would be doing another ED, but I am not.


I did ED in 05/2016. I agree that i did not do it just for the 5% cost savings but rather the experience of picking up my own car there and enjoying driving my car in europe. The savings however helps. The discount had already decreased from 7 to 5% in 2016, if leasing the MF is bumped up (second lease payment by BMW does not overcome this), and now it seems like no rebates are valid for ED anymore. The fact is that I can pick up a car stateside for cheaper than ED and don't have to deal with being without a car anymore for 8 weeks. From an economic standpoint it does not make much sense.

I can still have a similar experience without ordering a BMW for european delivery. I can go for the European vacation and if i wanted to can rent a high performance car . . . merc amg, porsche, M car etc, enjoy the european driving, can still sign up to do museum tours etc.


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

This forum (Bimmerfest) in general is soooo dead. It used to be so good. Sad. I guess this is why I moved to the other forum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MasterYoda said:


> This forum (Bimmerfest) in general is soooo dead. It used to be so good. Sad. I guess this is why I moved to the other forum.


Makes two of us :dunno:


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

MasterYoda said:


> This forum (Bimmerfest) in general is soooo dead. It used to be so good. Sad. I guess this is why I moved to the other forum.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Mods got heavy handed. I only check a few old post notifications.

And this thread is the same old stuff since Day 1 - ED costs more Boo Hoo.


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Mods got heavy handed. I only check a few old post notifications.
> 
> And this thread is the same old stuff since Day 1 - ED costs more Boo Hoo.


I've heard that this forum is also under new ownership. That never helps. It's usually the final death blow.

I learned a lot here about ED and BMWs. It was a great place. Somewhere along the away it went to crap.

Not sure it's gonna make it long term. The other forum is so much better. Vibrant community, way less censorship (Jesus it's bad here), and a lot less bugs with how the forum operates.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

MasterYoda said:


> I've heard that this forum is also under new ownership. That never helps. It's usually the final death blow.
> 
> I learned a lot here about ED and BMWs. It was a great place. Somewhere along the away it went to crap.


Looking back at my life (now almost 60), besides raising two wonderful children, creating Bimmerfest was probably the best thing that I have ever done in my life.
In particular, I am/was most proud of this European Delivery forum (I can still recall the night that I was sitting in the hot tub, ran into my office and and coded this forum after it came to me that it would be a good one).

Perhaps the lowest point in my life was in mid-2017 when my partners turned on me and forced me to sell my share (I took them on as partners a couple of years after I launched Bimmerfest, they were young 20-somethings, right out of college).
It was particularly painful as it came at a vulnerable time for me (dealing with severe medical issues). I am better now, but it still makes me sad, especially when I check back in and see people leaving.

Is the other forum that you are talking about Bimmerpost?

Hopefully the new owners can stop the bleeding. I would try to help if they asked me.

.


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

Jon Shafer said:


> Looking back at my life (now almost 60), besides raising two wonderful children, creating Bimmerfest was probably the best thing that I have ever done in my life.
> 
> In particular, I am/was most proud of this European Delivery forum (I can still recall the night that I was sitting in the hot tub, ran into my office and and coded this forum after it came to me that it would be a good one).
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear that Jon. I've heard nothing but good things about you and that is really a terrible way for things to have played out. Over the years I've seen a few great companies/business go down in flames when they get bought and forget what made them great in the 1st place. Sounds like that's what has/is happening here unfortunately.

When my wife and I 1st discovered ED this was the place that I came for help and information. It was awesome. Loved this forum. Over the last couple years though something has been missing. As stated above the mods are heavy handed here. The other forum is a lot more free (not completely) and I just feel that is a better way to go. Killing the poli sci forum here is a prime example. From what I've heard it was the mods that killed that section.

Don't let them take it away from you Jon. Your the man! You started up Bimmerfest and got many of us into BMW world/ED.

Yes the other form is Bimmerpost. The new owners here could/should take some pages out of their book.

Thank you for getting me into this game! Take care

Rich

Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

MasterYoda said:


> I'm sorry to hear that Jon. I've heard nothing but good things about you and that is really a terrible way for things to have played out. Over the years I've seen a few great companies/business go down in flames when they get bought and forget what made them great in the 1st place. Sounds like that's what has/is happening here unfortunately.
> 
> When my wife and I 1st discovered ED this was the place that I came for help and information. It was awesome. Loved this forum. Over the last couple years though something has been missing. As stated above the mods are heavy handed here. The other forum is a lot more free (not completely) and I just feel that is a better way to go. Killing the poli sci forum here is a prime example. From what I've heard it was the mods that killed that section.
> 
> ...


Thanks Rich, and funny you should say that. For those that were here in the very beginning (2001-2002) we caught traction really when many www.bimmer.org members defected from that site (once Bimmer.org got bought out and rebranded Roadfly)...due to their heavy-handed moderation. It literally drove a small but critical mass of users here from day#1.. It was so cool to watch it happen. I'd be so stoked to see 69 people on the site. For the first few years I insisted on zero moderation as this was inline with my core beliefs. Late 2003, I realized it was time for moderators due to substantial growth, and I selected about a dozen of my favorite posters to take over but under the credo of "laissez faire" - style admin. After a while the trolls came out and we had to acquiesce. I continued to fight for less is more. It became impossible by late 2003.

I could write a book about my 30 years in the car business and 18 years growing Bimmerfest.

Some of it would come of no surprise. Some of it would not. 

Anyway, the topic her of course is European Delivery. I have been away from BMW for exactly two years now, and am wondering what additional changes have been implemented in BMWs ED program?

When I left the ED discount had been whacked, and all of the hot models were dealer-allocation only. EDs cars were also suddenly ineligible for most incentives.

Has it gotten any better?

.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Jon Shafer said:


> When I left the ED discount had been whacked, and all of the hot models were dealer-allocation only. EDs cars were also suddenly ineligible for most incentives.
> 
> Has it gotten any better?
> 
> .


The last time I did ED I had trouble getting a morning delivery appointment 3 months out and when I got there I found out why. The Welt is full of Europeans who are _paying _extra for the experience instead of getting any discount at all. So where is the incentive for BMW to do special discounts for North Americans?

Anyway, what happened to the books we signed at the Welt? You keeping them for posterity?


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Gary J said:


> The Welt is full of Europeans who are _paying _extra for the experience instead of getting any discount at all. So where is the incentive for BMW to do special discounts for North Americans?


ED is a BMW NA marketing tool, it has little to do with BMW AG. The corollary is NA has nothing to do with the BMW AG's pricing or marketing programs in Continental Europe. Europeans paid the same for "factory" delivery at Frankfürter Ring and Freiman (pre Welt) as they currently do at the Welt. Frankfürter Ring was a retail dealership and Frieman was the cockroach corner of a secondary plant. There wasn't much experience at either; I wonder why they really paid (pay) extra for factory collection?

I tried to arrange for Dadong BMW Brilliance delivery of a 5 LWB I bought for one of my PRC managers; didn't happen as it was a local decision, not AG and not NA.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

BMW NA operates under the direction of BMW. Period.


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## miata13 (Nov 22, 2007)

"I could write a book about my 30 years in the car business and 18 years growing Bimmerfest."

Sign me up! I'd buy that! Really...with your lengthy experience in the car business and with BMW...I think that'd be an interesting read. Your ED forum was my guidebook to our 2014 experience. Go for it!


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Gary J said:


> BMW NA operates under the direction of BMW. Period.


Not according to Bernard Kuhnt, CEO BMW NA. Happy to provide you with his cell # if you wish to correct his corporate charge.


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

Jon Shafer said:


> Thanks Rich, and funny you should say that. For those that were here in the very beginning (2001-2002) we caught traction really when many www.bimmer.org members defected from that site (once Bimmer.org got bought out and rebranded Roadfly)...due to their heavy-handed moderation. It literally drove a small but critical mass of users here from day#1.. It was so cool to watch it happen. I'd be so stoked to see 69 people on the site. For the first few years I insisted on zero moderation as this was inline with my core beliefs. Late 2003, I realized it was time for moderators due to substantial growth, and I selected about a dozen of my favorite posters to take over but under the credo of "laissez faire" - style admin. After a while the trolls came out and we had to acquiesce. I continued to fight for less is more. It became impossible by late 2003.
> 
> I could write a book about my 30 years in the car business and 18 years growing Bimmerfest.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately it hasn't gotten any better. ED discount is still only 5% and we are unable to utilize any of the incentives except for BMW CCA.

I think this is a shortsighted move on BMWs part but what do I know Ive only had 11 BMWs and done ED 4 times. I am about to do it again this spring with our newborn son on another M4 if possible. IMO ED was a great way to create brand loyalty and repeat customers. It set BMW apart from the other manufactures. Sure the other Germans have/had ED programs but going to the Welt in Munich was special.

In all honesty I am disappointed in the brand at the moment. I feel that the bean counters have control and are making poor choices. The shareholders are happy at the moment but at what cost. BMW used to be a drivers/enthusiast brand but that is almost completely gone. Sad.

I am holding my ground and doing ED this time as I want to go and enjoy it as a family but this could be the last time for me with BMW.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

MasterYoda said:


> In all honesty I am disappointed in the brand at the moment. I feel that the bean counters have control and are making poor choices. The shareholders are happy at the moment but at what cost.


You're definitely not alone MasterYoda!

The shareholders aren't happy either, unless they have short positions. Share price of Bayerische Motoren Werke AG is barely above their 52 week low right now, and below where it was five years ago.


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## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

dkreidel said:


> Not according to Bernard Kuhnt, CEO BMW NA. Happy to provide you with his cell # if you wish to correct his corporate charge.


Ouch! Take that young whipper snapper. :thumbup:


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

M FUNF said:


> Ouch! Take that young whipper snapper. :thumbup:


Not really, Gary is always right even when proof is shown to him he is wrong.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

MasterYoda said:


> Unfortunately it hasn't gotten any better. ED discount is still only 5% and we are unable to utilize any of the incentives except for BMW CCA.


This thread keeps hiding a dead horse. For some it was about the extra savings on the BMW, but for most people it was the whole experience of picking the car up at the factory and driving it on European roads. I have said this before, the savings is small part since you have to pay for flights, hotels and meals now if you have plenty of airline miles and hotel points saved up you can come out ahead.

The other issue is many SA don't want to deal with ED's, since they do not get paid until you pick up the car in Germany.


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

Let's not get into this. Period. Period stuff.

Opinions are fine but to attribute the behind the scenes roles of BMW NA and BMW AG is futile to prove absent documentation or testimony.

Around 2006, Saab had a generous European delivery program.

*1. 9% of base price and options
2. Additional $2000 check described as "travel allowance"
3. no destination (shipping) charge that US customers paid*
4. 2 weeks of auto insurance
5. full tank of gas
6. Approximately 20% off accessories
7. airport pickup,* free taxi between hotel and factory*, free taxi between factory and delivery center
*8. one night free hotel and hotel dinner*
9. factory tour
*10. road atlas, key ring, coffee table type book*

bolded are what isn't included with BMW

BMW does have a gift shop voucher that one can use to buy a key ring. Also has food at the delivery center lounge.

#1, 2, 3 combined worked out to be about 20% off, more for the base model, slightly less for the most expensive models. In addition, mistakes sometimes led to a second free night at the hotel.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Dave 20T said:


> #1, 2, 3 combined worked out to be about 20% off, more for the base model


Because they _have to_. Because they are SAAB not BMW. Because they are SAAB not Mercedes. To spell it out - they struggle to sell cars at anywhere near the same rate.


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

openwheelracing said:


> Last May, we did our first Mercedes ED after 3 BMW EDs. Sad to say, BMW has dropped the ball lately. Today, there is a Tesla Model 3 in the garage instead of a 3 Bimmer.


I'm in the same boat--decided against doing an ED for the 5th time. If they don't want our business, our business can go elsewhere.

Now--how do you like the Telsa model 3? I'm seriously considering it or the new Jaguar XE-S. :tsk:


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## VDPHB (Apr 4, 2002)

Jon Shafer said:


> Thanks Rich, and funny you should say that. For those that were here in the very beginning (2001-2002) we caught traction really when many www.bimmer.org members defected from that site (once Bimmer.org got bought out and rebranded Roadfly)...due to their heavy-handed moderation. It literally drove a small but critical mass of users here from day#1.. It was so cool to watch it happen. I'd be so stoked to see 69 people on the site. For the first few years I insisted on zero moderation as this was inline with my core beliefs. Late 2003, I realized it was time for moderators due to substantial growth, and I selected about a dozen of my favorite posters to take over but under the credo of "laissez faire" - style admin. After a while the trolls came out and we had to acquiesce. I continued to fight for less is more. It became impossible by late 2003.
> 
> I could write a book about my 30 years in the car business and 18 years growing Bimmerfest.
> 
> ...


Whoa...Jon! So awesome to see you post! I believe I fall into one of those who was here in the very beginning and an attendee at the first Bimmerfest at Cutter when you cleared the lot to welcome us. You were instrumental in me and many friends and family owning BMWs, but after owning a BMW since 1999, my last was a 340i 6MT M-Sport that I took ED of in Sept 2015. Total bucket list experience with Oktoberfest, Nurburgring and much more. Alas, this past August, BMW had nothing that floated my boat and I left the family for now. Perhaps I'll be back in the near future, but you have been a huge part of my BMW experience and I thank you.

That being said, I hope BMW revitalizes the ED program from both a pricing perspective and brings it up to par with Mercedes. It truly is a wonderful experience I would do again...for the right car. Hopefully the G20 lives up to the standards that my F30 didn't.

:beerchug:


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

VDPHB said:


> Whoa...Jon! So awesome to see you post! I believe I fall into one of those who was here in the very beginning and an attendee at the first Bimmerfest at Cutter when you cleared the lot to welcome us. You were instrumental in me and many friends and family owning BMWs, but after owning a BMW since 1999, my last was a 340i 6MT M-Sport that I took ED of in Sept 2015. Total bucket list experience with Oktoberfest, Nurburgring and much more. Alas, this past August, BMW had nothing that floated my boat and I left the family for now. Perhaps I'll be back in the near future, but you have been a huge part of my BMW experience and I thank you.
> 
> That being said, I hope BMW revitalizes the ED program from both a pricing perspective and brings it up to par with Mercedes. It truly is a wonderful experience I would do again...for the right car. Hopefully the G20 lives up to the standards that my F30 didn't.
> 
> :beerchug:


I'm struggling right now with doing another ED on a 2020 M4. We really want to take our 6 month old son on an ED adventure this spring but BMW has dropped the ball on many things. So much so this might be our last BMW. Wife needs a new car as her 2016 340 is off lease this summer. Sadly BMW has nothing that we really want. This would have never been the case years ago. We've had well over 10 BMWs in the family and this potential ED will be #5. I'm seriously considering a few other makes for her this time around.

What has Mercedes done to up the ante on their ED program? Merc has always seemed like an older persons car but I'm looking at a few for the Wifeys next ride. Just curious why their current ED program is better? I was considering doing a C63 AMG for ED but I just can't get past the Honda Accord rear end.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## VDPHB (Apr 4, 2002)

MasterYoda said:


> What has Mercedes done to up the ante on their ED program? Merc has always seemed like an older persons car but I'm looking at a few for the Wifeys next ride. Just curious why their current ED program is better? I was considering doing a C63 AMG for ED but I just can't get past the Honda Accord rear end.


In a nutshell from another source:

"Mercedes-Benz offers up to 7 percent off the purchase price for European delivery and waives the usual $925 destination charge. It also includes a $200 airfare voucher, one night's hotel accommodations, airport transfer, a meal at the Delivery Center in Stuttgart or Bremen"

The key differences being the hotel stay, airfare voucher (if you can use it) and waiving the destination charge.

I was really disappointed that there wasn't a BMW besides the M2 that came close to being something I wanted. Unfortunately, the market conditions and demand for those last year was interesting.


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## ZoomVT (May 30, 2008)

VDPHB said:


> In a nutshell from another source:
> 
> "Mercedes-Benz offers up to 7 percent off the purchase price for European delivery and waives the usual $925 destination charge. It also includes a $200 airfare voucher, one night's hotel accommodations, airport transfer, a meal at the Delivery Center in Stuttgart or Bremen"
> 
> ...


As someone also considering mb ED program, it appears that the 7% is the baseline and that you can get an extra 5-7% off with the right salesperson and approach. If only their cars gave me that same feeling.

I have had 5+ BMWs and never had a chance to do an ED, now finally started to align and their ED program is decimated. Real bummer. I just can't stomach paying almost 30% premium over my current vehicle for a similarly equipped 5 series. And it's not just the ED program, their overall lease programs are not what they used to be.

For the first time in a long time I'm considering another brand, as opposed to just calling Adrian and giving him a build list for PCD pickup. I stopped by local MB dealer today, I'm still hoping I can make BMW ED work but it's not looking good.

MB does seem to have a solid ED program, even with their current terrible residuals (54% for an E class vs 61% for a 5 series), it might make more sense.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

VDPHB said:


> BMW had nothing that floated my boat and I left the family for now.





MasterYoda said:


> Sadly BMW has nothing that we really want.


Wow sure glad I do not have this problem. Sounds more like confirmation bias. I don't like ED so much anymore, oh yeah cars are no more good anyway.

I have never seen so many great BMW choices. Series and models, Numbering within Series, Gas, Diesel and Hybrid, xDrive vs. sDrive, Lines (Luxury, Sport, etc.) The great choices make my head spin.

https://www.cartelligent.com/blog/understanding-bmw-naming-conventions


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Wow sure glad I do not have this problem. Sounds more like confirmation bias. I don't like ED so much anymore, oh yeah cars are no more good anyway.
> 
> I have never seen so many great BMW choices. Series and models, Numbering within Series, Gas, Diesel and Hybrid, xDrive vs. sDrive, Lines (Luxury, Sport, etc.) The great choices make my head spin.
> 
> https://www.cartelligent.com/blog/understanding-bmw-naming-conventions


Choices are great if your making good cars. Choices are bad if your BMW and all your making these days is Lexus's. Not trying to offend but the only cars BMWs makes that even remotely interest me are ///M cars. Yes cars. Almost everything else In BMWs lineup is being manufactured better by another car maker. It's sad. Ya I'm kinda sore about it. Our family has been longtime fans of the Munich brand but it's coming to end unfortunately. My wife's next car won't have a Roundel on it and this 2020 M4 might be my last BMW for a while/ever?

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

MasterYoda said:


> Choices are great if your making good cars. Choices are bad if your BMW and all your making these days is Lexus's. Not trying to offend but the only cars BMWs makes that even remotely interest me are ///M cars. Yes cars. Almost everything else In BMWs lineup is being manufactured better by another car maker. It's sad. Ya I'm kinda sore about it. Our family has been longtime fans of the Munich brand but it's coming to end unfortunately. My wife's next car won't have a Roundel on it and this 2020 M4 might be my last BMW for a while/ever?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Ok we are off choice and on to quality. Got it. :rofl:


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

dkreidel said:


> I really don't recall how many years Freimmann was used, but I picked up my 2001 M5 from that dingy place.


From before 1989 until after 2003 I can say with certainty.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> I have never seen so many great BMW choices. Series and models, Numbering within Series, Gas, Diesel and Hybrid, xDrive vs. sDrive, Lines (Luxury, Sport, etc.) The great choices make my head spin.


"More choices" does not imply "better choices" or "great choices".


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> "More choices" does not imply "better choices" or "great choices".


Amazing factoid!! :rofl:


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> "More choices" does not imply "better choices" or "great choices".


Bingo. Don't mind Gary. He's a diehard Lexus fan. Hahahaha

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Best you've got. I understand.


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## mdurnwald (Apr 12, 2007)

Tanning machine said:


> From before 1989 until after 2003 I can say with certainty.


Until at least 2007... (when I picked up my ED there...)


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

gkr778 said:


> "More choices" does not imply "better choices" or "great choices".


Er ... he is, correctly so, listing that appetizers, soups, steaks, seafood, wine list are just great. You complain because you would like porcelain and proper flatware to go with that great steak. He eats with his hands. Can't win.


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

Gary J said:


> Ok we are off choice and on to quality. Got it. :rofl:


A wealth of options isn't important if none of the options appeal.

BMW clearly is successful, but a lot of that recent success IMO has been catering to different preferences than they once did, witness for example the substantial commitment to SUVs/SAVs that constitute a healthy share of the "options", often displacing options that a BMW traditionalist gravitates towards (e.g., tourings).

It is what it is, but it's hard to tell a BMW enthusiast of decades that the current options are better than they used to be.


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## alewifebp (Sep 20, 2008)

Tanning machine said:


> witness for example the substantial commitment to SUVs/SAVs that constitute a healthy share of the "options"


Which, admittedly, is just following trends in the industry. Whether we like it or not, the SUV is king, at least in the US. I saw a healthy amount of them in Germany too. Imagine being a loyal Ford sedan driver in he US. The best selling MB is the GLC. The new GLE when it arrives will easily sell plenty. Audi Q5, double the sales of the Q7. At least it's still about 50/50 SUV vs car at BMW. After the new X5 takes hold, I'd expect to see those sales increase greatly. Who would have ever thought that Porsche would build more than one SUV, and sell plenty. RR can't even keep up with Cullinan demand.

Luckily the 5 still sells well. And from what I've heard of the new 3, and after sitting in it, I think it will sell well.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

alewifebp said:


> Which, admittedly, is just following trends in the industry. Whether we like it or not, the SUV is king, at least in the US.


Exactly! So how are sales?

"BMW Group remains world's leading premium automotive company in 2018
11.01.2019 Press Release TOP
Eighth consecutive year of record sales +++ Best-ever sales figures for BMW, Rolls-Royce and BMW Motorrad +++ BMW sales up 1.8%: 2,125,026 sold worldwide +++ More than 140,000 electrified vehicles delivered worldwide +++ Sales surge at BMW M GmbH: more than 100,000 sold +++ Positive sales outlook for 2019: further growth expected +++
Corporate·Finance, Facts, Figures·Sales, Marketing·Sales Worldwide"

OK then let's try something else. I got it - how about quality? Crummy construction. I'll start ...

I am waiting for the first thing to go wrong with my 1 1/2 year old 535i, even so much as a squeak! 

You see where this is leading me though - back to whining N. Americans.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> You see where this is leading me though - back to whining N. Americans.


Uh oh, didn't moderator Dave 20T put this thread on temporary hiatus last year due to insults and whining directed at North Americans?

In before the lock!! :bigpimp:


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

gkr778 said:


> Uh oh, didn't moderator Dave 20T put this thread on temporary hiatus last year due to insults and whining directed at North Americans?
> 
> In before the lock!! :bigpimp:


Yep, as the OP I had to promise Dave we wouldn't drive this back in the weeds (again) to have this comprehensive thread unlocked.

I've been biting my tongue and sitting on my fingers


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