# STILL can't get a smooth 1-2 shift



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

Arrrg! I've got 3K miles on my 330i and I still can't shift smoothly from 1-2 when I'm trying to accelerate strongly. I know this has been discussed before (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35776&highlight=2nd, http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29518&highlight=shift+1-2) and I've figured out most of the basicis, but still can't get it mastered so I'm still am hoping to get some advice.

in my case I think it's the DBW delay that is killing me. If I shift out of 1st at 4000 rpm, I need to let the engine drop to about 2600 before re-engaging to match revs. When I do this, the clutch engagement is seemless *if I stay off the gas*, but then when I hit the gas after shifting I get a slight pause, followed a big jerk (unless I apply the gas really gently). If I try to hit the gas smoothly but sooner, while I'm engaging the clutch, I get inconsistent results.

Can someone who has mastered this let me know *exactly* what you do when you shift into second? After letting the rpm's drop to the appropriate point, do you:

A) let out clutch fully, then hit the gas slowly enough to avoid the throttle jerk

B) 1. start letting out the clutch, 2. hit the gas to give it some power, 3. then finish letting out the clutch, 4. finish pressing the pedal

C) Something else?

The fact that I can't shift smoothly without driving like a grandma is really starting to piss me off, and is making me enjoy driving the car less. I need to figure this out. Advice welcome.


----------



## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

With 8,000 miles on my car, I'd say both 1st and 2nd take a bit of finesse in the 330, but I find it a welcome challenge instead of a problem. 

When I'm not smooth, 90% of the time it's because I don't give it enough gas (or you could say that I let clutch out too quickly). I'd go with choice B, but you mention letting the revs drop to some appropriate point; I can't say I ever really think about that at all. If I ever shift like you describe in choice A, it's only because I'm stuck in gridlocked traffic.


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

PhilH said:


> You mention letting the revs drop to some appropriate point, I can't say I ever really think about that at all.


I don't normally think about it either. But since my shifting sucked I decided to do some controlled experiments. I tried shifting out of first at 4000 every time, and experimenting a) where to re-engage, and b) when/how to hit the gas.

I managed to get a) smoothly , but not both a & b.

In a way I welcome the challenge also, but I guess I'm starting to get frustrated because I'm not improving.


----------



## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Just give it time... I've been driving BMW's manual for 3 years now, and even though I take pride in the way I drive the car and always try to do it just right... I am still rough quite often.

It's all in the feel. Occasionally I have to give it a big pause before releasing the clutch, occasionally I can just "snick" it into gear with instantaneous clutch release... And I don't have a sign above my head telling me which way it's going to go right now, it's all about how the car feels... I can't explain it :/

I feel it's A) (without the jerk  ) for me. B) you're just slipping clutch, it shouldn't be necessary in 1-2 shift, I think. In fact, I never apply power until the clutch has fully hooked up.

Just give it time. I know, not much help, but just letting you know that you're not the only guy in this boat (and I also have DBW).


----------



## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Oh, and take a look at this. It's meant for a different car with different engine, but I feel that it might be interesting to you.

BMW M5 Driving school


----------



## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

16+3=19


----------



## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Ryan330i said:


> 16+3=19


It took me a minute to figure it out.

I'm not American/Canadian, so it's not 16. And my first car was a chevy, not a bimmer :/

There's food for thought, since you seem to want some.


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

Ryan330i said:


> 16+3=19


 :rofl:

So you're not 19 because you're 18! :yikes:


----------



## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

rumatt said:


> :rofl:
> 
> So you're not 19 because you're 18! :yikes:


Whatever. As long as I don't act my age... :fingers:


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

rost12 said:


> Oh, and take a look at this. It's meant for a different car with different engine, but I feel that it might be interesting to you.
> 
> BMW M5 Driving school


Thanks for the link. I had actually just discoved that site earlier today. The fast shifts are pretty awesome.


----------



## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

rumatt said:


> The fast shifts are pretty awesome.


And they are actually easier than the slow ones :eeps: Given that DSC is off, of course


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

rumatt said:


> Can someone who has mastered this let me know *exactly* what you do when you shift into second? After letting the rpm's drop to the appropriate point...


A smooth upshift from 1 - 2 can mean huge variances between throttle position, shift speed, clutch engagement speed and throttle input increase/decrease depending upon what type of 'smooth 1-2 shift' you are trying to achieve.

So, in order to answer your quesiton correctly we'd need to know what kind of upshift you are doing. I regularly upshift from 1-2 at about 2500rpm, but depending upon my throttle input at 2500rpm my upshift may take more or less time thus my clutch input will coorespondingly take more or less time.

Simply stated, you can accelerate quikcly up to 4000rpm and perform an upshift or you can accelerate very very slowly to 4000rpm and also perform an upshift. Your throttle position, shift speed, clutch engagement speed and throttle input will have a direct coorelation to how you need to perform your shift and clutch engagement thus achieving your smooth 1-2 upshift.

During fast acceleration in 1st to 2nd gear, quick shifting and quick clutch engagement is key. You don't 'wait' for the RPMs to drop, you simply disengage the clutch, shift, engage the clutch, apply throttle (quickly).

During slow acceleration in 1st to 2nd gear, you shouldn't let the RPMs get too high, the higher the RPMs the higher the variance in drive line strain, especially at slow acceleations levels. So if you slowly acceleration to 4000rpm and then slowly engage 2nd gear, you'll find the shift is quite abrupt and harsh. The opposite is true. If you shift at 1500rpm, and use a very slow (easy) clutch engagement, you'll find that a 1-2 shift is rather seamless and 'easy'. As your RPMs increase, it becomes more and more difficult to engage the clutch (during slow acceleration) without this 'jerky' clutch engagement.

Hope this helps.


----------



## hmr (Jul 28, 2002)

rumatt said:


> Arrrg! I've got 3K miles on my 330i and I still can't shift smoothly from 1-2 when I'm trying to accelerate strongly.


There's something wrong with your clutch mechanism. I too have had problems with smoothness. In the last couple of months, though, and after 30K miles, my car is behaving differently. The clutch feels much lighter, the car feels like a rocket, and shifting and clutch uptake is beautiful and effortless. I know now that BMW manuals are very smooth and forgiving when everything is working properly.

The behavior still isn't consistent and is still changing, however. But, at least more often than not, it is behaving as I described.

My theory is that either there's something wrong with the dual mass flywheel or the throwout bearing.

I've had the clutch replaced under that TSB for clutch pop (21-01-01, I think) about a year ago. That didn't really do anything. I even experienced the clutch pop after that.

I also had the clutch slave cylinder replaced. That didn't do anything except make money for the dealer.

Also, I removed the CDV. That really had no effect. It's a myth.

Myself, I'll wait to see how it behaves in the next couple of months. Hopefully it will stay consistent, and I'll just attribute it to break-in, an awfully long break-in.


----------



## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

Fisrt of all shifting at 2500 rpm's is to low...try at least 5-6k...this has been posted here ad nauseam....I started a thread not to long ago on this very topic

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39198


----------



## sshuit (Apr 15, 2002)

Huh?....

So I should almost redline the car before shifting? In order to get a smooth 1-2 shift?

That makes no sense..........



PABS said:


> Fisrt of all shifting at 2500 rpm's is to low...try at least 5-6k...this has been posted here ad nauseam....I started a thread not to long ago on this very topic
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39198


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

On my 325 i find that i get the smoothest shifts aroudn 2-3k rpm (which is lower than what most people seem to recommend for smooth shifting). I'm also able to start out in 1st gear at a pretty low rpm (less than 2k)


----------



## richard (Apr 3, 2002)

sshuit said:


> Huh?....
> 
> So I should almost redline the car before shifting? In order to get a smooth 1-2 shift?
> 
> That makes no sense..........


I agree...I can't imagine shifting at redline when just tooling around town. I usually shift a 2500 also and have no trouble with smooth shifts.


----------



## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

At 2500 rpm I would always be in 1st or 2nd. Otherwise the engine would just lug.

I guess we are talking to different kind of smooth. At 2000 - 3000 rpm it's no problem at all getting a smooth shift. I don't care about that. My problem is at higher rpm's.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

PABS said:


> Fisrt of all shifting at 2500 rpm's is to low...


Too low for what?? :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

PABS said:


> ....At 2000 - 3000 rpm it's no problem at all getting a smooth shift. I don't care about that. My problem is at higher rpm's.


What's your acceleration rate? Meaning, are you slowing accelerating and leaving the car in gear thus going up to 4k to 6k rpm slowly? Or are you applying fast throttle input to give you a very fast acceleration in 1st gear (like when testing 0-60mph acceleration) ?


----------



## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

No I'm not talking about dumping the clutch. I accelerate to 6k and then shift into 2nd, again accelerate to 6k shift into 3rd, etc.

Accelerating to 2k and then shifting is always easy and smooth.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

PABS said:


> No I'm not talking about dumping the clutch. I accelerate to 6k and then shift into 2nd, again accelerate to 6k shift into 3rd, etc.


You'd only need to 'dump the clutch' if you need to shift quickly. So, I assume that you are shifting slowly yet accelerating all the way up to 6k. I've never done that before really.

Why would you accelerate slowly, all the way up to 6000rpm?

I think you'll find it increasingly difficult to perform a smooth shift as your tach increases if you maintain a slow acceleration rate. It's just not easy to do.

As a simple rule, smooth shifts happen at lower RPMs, harsh but rapid shifts happen at higher RPMs. Allot of it has to do with the mass of the vehicle, torque from the engine, and the forces exerted on the clutch.


----------



## mithiral67 (Mar 13, 2003)

try letting off the gas half way, then disengage the clutch while letting off gas completely, shift to second. 

with my 330 zhp and shifting for a smooth slow acceleration i shift at 3k, and let the rpms drop to 1800 for 2nd, 2000 for 3rd, 2200 4th, 2500 for 5th and as fast as i can shift for 6th. I depress clutch shift and release as fast as possible and usually nail a smooth shift through ever gear

What does everyone let thier rpms hit when they start from first in everyday driving, if i break 800 rpms its unusual, is this to low?


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Maybe you are forcing the shifter when using higher RPMs? Try holding the shifter less tightly with your hand, I find this will let the shifter engage the gear more smoothly.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

If you are having problems dealing with the DBW and the balky BMW clutch try shifting the gear in a slower and smoother motion. I'm not sure what you mean by dropping to match the revs, you should have no problems shifting at 4 grand. Just be steady on the throttle after engagement. Its kind of sounds like you are give the car throttle before the clutch is fully engaged.


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

sergiok said:


> A smooth upshift from 1 - 2 can mean huge variances between throttle position, shift speed, clutch engagement speed and throttle input increase/decrease depending upon what type of 'smooth 1-2 shift' you are trying to achieve.
> 
> So, in order to answer your quesiton correctly we'd need to know what kind of upshift you are doing. I regularly upshift from 1-2 at about 2500rpm, but depending upon my throttle input at 2500rpm my upshift may take more or less time thus my clutch input will coorespondingly take more or less time.
> 
> ...


People look at their RPMs when shifting? Been driving stick for close to 20 years, the only time I look to my tach is when I'm on it hard in second and I don't want to hit the rev limiter...


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

hmr said:


> There's something wrong with your clutch mechanism. I too have had problems with smoothness. In the last couple of months, though, and after 30K miles, my car is behaving differently. The clutch feels much lighter, the car feels like a rocket, and shifting and clutch uptake is beautiful and effortless. I know now that BMW manuals are very smooth and forgiving when everything is working properly.
> 
> The behavior still isn't consistent and is still changing, however. But, at least more often than not, it is behaving as I described.
> 
> ...


Heck, my 6 speed locks me out of gears, pops me out of some gears and at times it feels like I'm pushing the lever through cold, hardened spaghetti.


----------



## cokray (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm a relatively new 325i driver; I've learned to be very smooth when doing 1-2 at 3000 RPM. I've also concluded that trying to shift smoothly at much higher RPMs than that seems self-defeating as one has to wait so long for the revs to fall. This is not normally a problem when I'm tooling around the city, but when I'm out in the suburbs or something where cars routinely accelerate up to 50-60 MPH after stop lights I find it frustrating to shift out of first at such a low RPM. 

I believe you can achieve quick, smooth shifts at high RPMS (especially 1-2) by lightly feathering the clutch while waiting for the RPM's to fall. In theory, if you do this right you'll 'encourage' the engine to slow down quicker thus allowing you to reach the desired RPM and quickly release the clutch the rest of the way. I've heard that SMG uses this technique during upshifts.

Unfortunately, due to my lack of skill and the awful, vague clutch in my car I've never been able to master doing this -- I usually release the clutch too far too fast thus causing the car to jerk.

Does any other bimmerfestians do this trick when shifting? Or is it just crazy and I should just wait the interminable period for the revs to fall if I want smooth shifts above 3 grand?


----------



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

So is the throttle "hanging" open between shifts? I don't mean wide open, but in that the revs to not drop instantly when your foot is taken off the gas.

Is that what it is?


----------



## bluskye (Jul 24, 2002)

racerdave said:


> So is the throttle "hanging" open between shifts? I don't mean wide open, but in that the revs to not drop instantly when your foot is taken off the gas.
> 
> Is that what it is?


I dont think the throttle is hanging, I would assume that it's just the dual mass flywheel taking awhile to slow down.


----------



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

The reason I asked is because my POS Ford Contour, that I thankfully will be jettisoning in favor of a 325i, actually *hangs* the throttle for a second when shifting at low to moderate RPMs. 

Or, for that matter, even when you lift off the throttle to decelerate without using the brakes. It almost feels like an automatic when you first lift off (little to no deceleration) but it's a 5-speed. (FWIW, my wife's Volvo V70 with auto actually decelerates when lifting off the gas. What a concept.) That was apparently Ford's lame way of meeting emissions... hang the throttle open for 1 second after driver lifts, *then* actually close the throttle body. 

And if the 325/330 did the throttle hang? It would drive me freaking nuts! So I really hope that isn't it.

It'd be "back to the drawing board" before ordering a car.


----------



## cokray (Feb 13, 2003)

racerdave said:


> The reason I asked is because my POS Ford Contour, that I thankfully will be jettisoning in favor of a 325i, actually *hangs* the throttle for a second when shifting at low to moderate RPMs.
> 
> Or, for that matter, even when you lift off the throttle to decelerate without using the brakes. It almost feels like an automatic when you first lift off (little to no deceleration) but it's a 5-speed. (FWIW, my wife's Volvo V70 with auto actually decelerates when lifting off the gas. What a concept.) That was apparently Ford's lame way of meeting emissions... hang the throttle open for 1 second after driver lifts, *then* actually close the throttle body.
> 
> ...


I would say it does "hang" some. The other car I drive frequently, a Hyundai Accent 5-speed, drops the revs immediately and quickly when the throttle is lifted. Even at high-rpm 1-2 shifts I need to shift fairly quickly to time it correctly -- which I like. In contrast I feel like I'm waiting forever for the revs to drop in my BMW. Sometimes it seems to take longer than others to drop - I find I'm much smoother when I actually watch the tach so I can time the release properly. Also annoying is at low revs, like when you're inching along in traffic, the engine speed will definitely hang -- often at 1500 RPM or so after I lift off the pedal. This is extremely annoying as it makes it difficult to smoothly start and stop when the engine is not predictably responding to the pedal -- sometimes you give it way to much gas, other times it almost stalls because the revs decided to drop right at just the wrong time. Since you really can't hear the engine at low speeds (esp if windows up and radio on), I end up watching the tach to see what it's doing, which does help a lot.

To be honest, this is so annoying it almost takes away the joy in driving the car, which is fantastic in nearly every other regard. I know with more practice you can compensate for these problems -- but I shouldn't have to. If BMW hasn't fixed this in the e90 I'll definitely be shopping around before purchasing another BMW.

There are others on this board who will say they've had no problems at all with their e46's, but I think they are in the minority. If you're skilled enough and pay very close attention to the engine speed you can compensate for the various 'hangs' and so forth, but again, why should we have to? I'm sure the design was done for emissions purposes (sharp drops in engine speed would logically cause an increase in emissions), but they need a better way. The fact that it is much easier to drive my $2000 Hyundai than my $34,000 BMW really, really, annoys me. OK, end of rant.

Edit: I'm not sure exactly what causes the 'hang' -- probaby a combination of the dual-mass flywheel and the DBW throttle. The unpredicability I referred to is probably because sometimes the lag is flywheel induced and sometimes DBW induced.


----------



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Cokray,

Thanks for the input. Yes, it sounds exactly like the Contour's throttle hang. It's done for emissions purposes.

And like you say, it's one of the most annoying issues in a manual-trans car. I actually don't think it has *anything* to do with DBW. It's simply the ECU programming among other things.

My stupid Contour had the throttle hang and that had a throttle cable. But it was the combo of the ECU, EGR valve, etc, that caused the hang. It was designed into the car for emissions sake. There was a slight DIY remedy, but it was [email protected] and didn't totally fix it. And it involved NO software upgrades, just a restrictor in the EGR hose coming back to the motor.

Boy, I have to say I'm a bit distressed by the E46s exhibiting this behavior. It's like #2 on the list of "Why I hate my Contour," and I really don't want to pay 30+K for a car that does the same thing.

Even if every car doesn't do it as much, they'll still do it. My Contour does it intermittently... every so often it doesn't hang. But it does more often that not.


----------



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

sergiok said:


> During slow acceleration in 1st to 2nd gear, you shouldn't let the RPMs get too high, the higher the RPMs the higher the variance in drive line strain, especially at slow acceleations levels. So if you slowly acceleration to 4000rpm and then slowly engage 2nd gear, you'll find the shift is quite abrupt and harsh. The opposite is true. If you shift at 1500rpm, and use a very slow (easy) clutch engagement, you'll find that a 1-2 shift is rather seamless and 'easy'. As your RPMs increase, it becomes more and more difficult to engage the clutch (during slow acceleration) without this 'jerky' clutch engagement.
> 
> Hope this helps.


This is very true. I have experienced the same.


----------



## dynosor (Jul 15, 2003)

*I get perfectly smooth shifts in my 2003 330i*

I get perfectly smooth shifts in my 330i by shifting from first to second anywhere from 3500 to 4500 RPM. Somehow the shifting is easier and the RPMs drop just to the right level for the next gear with medium fast shifts. At higher RPM the revs hang a little too long and you either have to wait for them to drop or let the clutch out deliberately to drop them in a cushioned way.

It does not matter how hard I was accelerating just prior to this as I always throttle back to the point where the road speed is constant just before depressing the clutch. If I am a little slow in shifting or letting the clutch out, I dab the throttle a little to bring the revs back up so when I let out the clutch there is no shock.

When driving all out with quick shifting, I find that there is invariably a big jerk as I get back on the gas in second. At first I thought it was me jerking the clutch, but discovered it was throttle lag - traveling at constant speed in second at 4000 RPM and mashing the pedal gives the same slight delay and big jerk.

I have most fun driving 3/4 hard as this seems the perfect rhythm for smooth shifts.

The engine and transmission seem happiest when I shift in the 3500 to 4500 RPM band and I rarely shift below 3000 RPM.


----------



## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

dynosor said:


> When driving all out with quick shifting, I find that there is invariably a big jerk as I get back on the gas in second. At first I thought it was me jerking the clutch, but discovered it was throttle lag - traveling at constant speed in second at 4000 RPM and mashing the pedal gives the same slight delay and big jerk.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly what I am talking about...I've never had a car that was as difficult to drive hard as this 330 w/5spd.
> ...


----------



## e46shift (Oct 12, 2002)

i find it the more throttle you give the more the revs will hang and you will have to wait that much longer to engage the next gear. less throttle and you will have to shift quicker.
it becomes apparent when you drive on hills,for example when you are going downhill you will find you shift faster while when going uphill you will have to pause for that extra time.


----------



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

It's all about learning the timing.

I shift anywhere between 2000 RPMs and redline.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Trouble with 1-2 shifts. 

I have absolutely no trouble with my 1-2 shifts, so for the last couple of days I have been observing my 1-2 shifts in the 4000 rpm range. A couple of things... 

Frist, I noticed that the E46 clutch does no like to be dropped, the cleanest shifts are accomplished with a steady medium release of the clutch. Second, get off the throttle as soon as the clutch is depressed, do not stay in the throttle when depressing the clutch this can cause the rpms not matching, and may induce throttle lag. Third, get in the throttle exactly the same instance you reach your engagement point of the clutch pedal, and apply steady good amount of throttle, especially if you are in the 4000 rpm range. The amount of throttle is important, at least with my car, to little and it causes a lag in the throttle.


----------



## AndDown (Jun 17, 2003)

Here's what works for me...didn't realize I was doing it until reading all the responses on this thread:

During slow acceleration (e.g. heavy traffic, city driving), I shift at about 2500 rpm with a slow, smooth, steady clutch release that takes almost 2 secs from completely depressed to completely released. When doing a fast acceleration above 4000 rpm, I find that I do a faster clutch release, still smooth and steady, taking less than 1 sec.

Wasn't realizing I was doing this until reading Sergiok's remarks...works for me! :thumbup:


----------

