# Doesn't it bother you guys to rip up your street tires on the track



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

I can see what 2 events have done so far to my tires and they looked really ripped up on the edges . . . 

I know it's a ton of fun but 99% of your driving is done on the street with these same tires . . . 

The only solution I can think of is to get a winter set of wheels and switch tires on that set depending on the season

In other words, in the spring put on the track tires and in the Fall put on the winter tires but this is such a pain in the a** . . .


Otherwise who wants 3 sets of wheel (summer, winter and track)

What do you guys do ?
Doesn't it bother you guys to rip-up a set of $900 tires on the track ?


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## Guest (May 13, 2003)

This is how Clyde's tires looked after one of the autoxes last season-










It happens. I've found that if I'm smoother out there, I experience far less tire wear.

But, YES, many people who autox seriously do get a set of dedicated track rims/tires.

So far, I have not seen enough wear on my decent tires to be concerned. I tried to tear up my Contis but they refused to wear AT ALL. They just slid. Bye bye Contis.

Oh, and as far as the $900 reference goes, why do you think I switched to Kumhos?


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

It doesn't bother me at all. There's really nothing I'd rather spend money on than on having fun driving my car.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> So far, I have not seen enough wear on my decent tires to be concerned. I tried to tear up my Contis but they refused to wear AT ALL. They just slid. Bye bye Contis.
> 
> Oh, and as far as the $900 reference goes, why do you think I switched to Kumhos? *


That is funny you bring that up, this morning when I was thinking about this, I said to myself no wonder why Tom went for Kumhos . . .

You probably haven't even broken them in yet though to give a review right ?

I really want to dump the Conti's but keep them for track (ab)use but now I am down to only 1 set of wheels so I have no other set to put them on (though I might get the type 44's if I can find a set at a decent price)


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> *I can see what 2 events have done so far to my tires and they looked really ripped up on the edges . . .
> 
> I know it's a ton of fun but 99% of your driving is done on the street with these same tires . . .
> 
> ...


Yeah, it bugs me. But I am not good enough to take advantage of track tires yet, and they really would just mask the deficiencies in my driving.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TD said:


> *This is how Clyde's tires looked after one of the autoxes last season-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To put it in context, that was after 10 or 11 autocrosses and ~8500 street miles. Those tires are very unsuited to autocrossing as the sidewalls rolled over terribly no matter how much air I crammed in there. Also, poor driving led me to push pretty severely at many of those autocrosses which only made the wear worse. What you can't see form the pic is that there is nearly full tread on the inner edges (and still is after ~11,000 miles).



> *I've found that if I'm smoother out there, I experience far less tire wear.
> 
> But, YES, many people who autox seriously do get a set of dedicated track rims/tires.
> 
> ...


The smoother you are, the longer the tires will last. The composition and quality of the surfaces you run on will have a large impact on the amount of wear you experience as well. The reason that many people use dedicated wheels and tires for track/autocross isn't to make their street tires last longer, but to be faster on the track. They use tires on the tracks and courses that most wouldn't want to use on the street, and even if they did, they would only last a couple thousand miles (if that).

THe reason that TD hasn't seen much wear from autocrosses is becuase he hasn't done many autocrosses.

The tires I'm running this summer (and probably next summer as well) cost me $448 for all four.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

PhilH said:


> *It doesn't bother me at all. There's really nothing I'd rather spend money on than on having fun driving my car. *


Phil, maybe I should elaborate a little, I was thinking that since the main reason we buy good tires is really for our everyday driving enjoyment.

I am new at tracking but the person I am competitive with would be myself and getting my times down. So if I use the same set of tires whether they are Crappy Conti's or not doesn't matter since I am racing against myself. I don't want to cut down a second or two because of tires, I want to cut it down because my driving skills got better . . .

So back on topic for a second, here we are spending a lot of money so we can drive around on good tires then we rip them up at the track so we really aren't getting the full potential of these tires on the street.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Yes it does, until you change your front camber, you will be tearing up street tires.

My last event that I went to, I did not tear up the front edges because they were set to -0.8 degrees and I had reverse mounted. But, enough events, even with large caber,you will wear the edges...

But, I now have a set of R-comp A032s in the garage...


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> *THe reason that TD hasn't seen much wear from autocrosses is becuase he hasn't done many autocrosses.
> 
> The tires I'm running this summer (and probably next summer as well) cost me $448 for all four. *


I thought Tom was a big track junkie :dunno:

Also what tires are you going with for the summer ?


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> *I can see what 2 events have done so far to my tires and they looked really ripped up on the edges . . .
> *


Two things: 1) make sure you're running the proper pressures; 2) as you get better/smother tire wear should improve.



> Or maybe a set of steel rims for your snows, and go to three sets??


He's got a 330. Last I checked, they don't make steel wheels that are big enough to fit over the brakes on 330s. Best bet for cheap wheels is to find a set with some curb rash or a set of take offs.

EDIT: damn you people are fast!


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## Guest (May 13, 2003)

AF330i said:


> *That is funny you bring that up, this morning when I was thinking about this, I said to myself no wonder why Tom went for Kumhos . . .
> 
> You probably haven't even broken them in yet though to give a review right ?
> 
> I really want to dump the Conti's but keep them for track (ab)use but now I am down to only 1 set of wheels so I have no other set to put them on (though I might get the type 44's if I can find a set at a decent price) *


As JST said with respect to himself, I'm just not good enough for track tires yet either.

But I have no real qualms about ragging on street tires, to a point.

I started autoxing when my car had Contis and, I have to say, they suck so bad as to be discouraging. I couldn't get them to wear and they exihibited absolutely ZERO grip. I experienced nothing but understeer.

I suppose one could argue that going out with tires without grip is educational. But I just found it to be frustrating.

I certainly would not recommend thinking of Contis as a rag them on the autox until they are shot tires. They'll NEVER wear out and you'll have horrible autox experiences until you finally give up on them.

As for my Kumhos, they're on the rear. It's really hard to review tires that are just on the rear. And with my car being essentially undrivable for a week or so now (tranny issue to be resolved at the end of the week), I really have not driven it much since I got the tires.

I am debating autoxing my wife's car later this month instead of mine. But she insists that if her car is to be autox-ed, SHE will be the one doing it.


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## Guest (May 13, 2003)

AF330i said:


> *I thought Tom was a big track junkie :dunno:
> *


Nope.

I only went to my first driver's school last spring (and, for multiple reasons, do not plan to do another for some time) and I only went to 3 autoxes plus an autox school last season.

That's it.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I am debating autoxing my wife's car later this month instead of mine. But she insists that if her car is to be autox-ed, SHE will be the one doing it. *


Easy solution.

Co-drive with her.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

Alan, I think part of the problem is the Nassau Colesium lot. You may want to post this on the NYBMWCCA board, but my opinion is that lot is in major need of repaving. Rough surface, tons of potholes (I think I can still feel that big one near the lamp post).


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

alee said:


> *Alan, I think part of the problem is the Nassau Colesium lot. You may want to post this on the NYBMWCCA board, but my opinion is that lot is in major need of repaving. Rough surface, tons of potholes (I think I can still feel that big one near the lamp post). *


Sounds like Rosecroft Raceway (where most of the DC area events are hosted; NCC and others).


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Yes it does, so after 2 sets I've bought track wheels/tires


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## FSelekler (Jan 15, 2002)

I know Clyde really does not like Rosecroft, but the "committee" does  I think they will be hosting more events there :dunno: 

Also, just to add my experience, I went to 1 autox and 1 autox school and I have 21K mi. on my Michelin Pilot Sports. No significant decay on the edges and still 50-60% tread left. I am very happy with them thus far.

I think the fun in autox'ing is the competition of it. I do not know where else we can get this type of clean competition besides go-karts and even those are not that much fun in my opinion. So, if the purpose is competition (friendly of course), then I'd really like to have the best equipment I can afford and still stay "stock." 

I'd get a new set of rims and tires (which I will later on).


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

FSelekler said:


> *I know Clyde really does not like Rosecroft, but the "committee" does  I think they will be hosting more events there :dunno:*


They like it because it's cheap and available. I actually do like it. One of the problems I have with it is that over half of the autocrosses I did last year were there and more than half of them will probably be there this year as well. The pavement is in such bad shape that course are sometimes have to be altered _during_ an event because a portion will deteriorate so quickly that it becomes unsafe. On top of that, the lot is kind of smallish and the course designs wind up being different variations on two or three themes (because if someone gets really creative, too many people whine).



> *So, if the purpose is competition *


Many of the people there are not looking to compete against each other, but rather to compete against themselves, improve their driving and participate in a social event with like minded people.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

alee said:


> *Alan, I think part of the problem is the Nassau Colesium lot. You may want to post this on the NYBMWCCA board, but my opinion is that lot is in major need of repaving. Rough surface, tons of potholes (I think I can still feel that big one near the lamp post). *


While I agree that the Course has too much gravel on it I wouldn't complain since I seriously feel honored that all I give them is $25 and they allow me to autocross.
These guys that run the autocross work very hard to set-up the course and they make no money on it. Meanwhile for them it is actual work though I know htey enjoy it.

I am too new to complain about it plus what can they really do anyway ?

They aren't going to repave the Nassau Coliseum and they aren't going to sweep the entire area either . . . so I wouldn't want to upset them by complaining since I feel lucky to be able to do this in the first place.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

I will probably put a feeler out there on the nybmwcca board to see what others think about the conditions. Granted I am a total newbie at auto-x, but I certainly know good roads from bad ones. If nobody complains, they'll just go ahead and think everything is ok.

Certainly $25 isn't a whole lot of money, but I think it does entitle you to complain if you don't find something agreeable.


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

I got 20k miles and 12 or 13 track days and about 5 autoX days out of my Yokohama AVS Sports, running in B, C, and D groups. Wear was quite even across the tire, with perhaps a little more wear on the outside shoulders of the fronts. I replaced them because they were down to the wear bars on the rear, and close to it on the front.

Suspension is completely stock on an E46 328Ci with sport package. Downsides after the 5th or 6th school were noise --- it sounded like a UFO was going to land on me everytime I braked --- and severe tramlining, but the AVS Sports exhibited that even when near new, so I'm not sure that's part of the wear. The car remained neutral throughout, unlike the stock ContiSports which had massive understeer when worn (but the front shoulders were completely gone, too).

I now have S-03s and will see how well they do. Initial impressions after 4 track days and about 4k miles is that they're much quieter (naturally), softer, more comfortable, less communicative, but grippier than the AVS Sports. They're just starting to slightly tramline, but they feel like a luxury ride compared to the Yokos.

--Andre


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## FSelekler (Jan 15, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *Many of the people there are not looking to compete against each other, but rather to compete against themselves, improve their driving and participate in a social event with like minded people. *


Hmmm. How do you determine your improvement then? You cannot compare yourself from your previous performances as the track layout is different each time. The only comparitive base point you can have is against other regular autoxers; such as Rafael, Bill, Henry, etc. To me that's "freindly competition."

Well, at least, that's how I compare it. What ever time they post, I try to see if I am getting closer in terms of percentage of delta time.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

FSelekler said:


> *Hmmm. How do you determine your improvement then?*


You don't even need a time for yourself to determine if you're getting better or worse, let alone someone else's time to compare it to. You don't need a time to know that you got on the brakes too late for this turn and apexed too late for that one.

Having an objective yardstick such as time helps quantify your improvement over time after the fact, but it doesn't do a hell of a lot for you while you're making your runs. When you drive the course right, you'll know that you were fast. When you drive it wrong, you'll know that you were slow.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

I found the three sets solution quite agreeable. Of course, my third set of wheels was also absurdly cheap.  Driving on the street with your autox tires can be kind of annoying. As it turns out, though, the Azeni are a LOT more pleasant to drive on than the S-03s.

Unfortunately, I bought the S-03s with the intent of autoxing on them. I'd have gone for a MUCH more pleasant tire for the street, otherwise. The New Jersey Turnpike is a MISERABLE experience on S-03s. (Anyone want to buy mine? )

And to top that off, I managed to curb my left front wheel today.


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