# BMW CPO Woes - CPO Rescinded? - VIN-check "loophole" or scam? - Carfax fails me too!



## bbqBiker (Jun 20, 2007)

*BMW CPO Woes - CPO Rescinded? - VIN-check "loophole" or scam? - Carfax fails me too!*

Sorry about the length of this post. Only read it if you care about used car consumer's rights as this relates to buying a BMW CPO-described car that really may or may not be a BMW CPO even when a dealership pulls up the VIN to check it for you. Also, trust and rely on Carfax? You decide.

*Regardless, if you are buying a CPO via an independent dealer and using a Carfax, this is worth a few minutes of your time...*

Was I purposefully scammed by an independent (non-BMW) dealer using Carfax verbiage and a BMW CPO-loophole or was the indep dealer working off the same misinformation as me? Hopefully this thread will help me solicit more tangible facts over the next few days. If nothing else, I can help the "next guy" not make the same mistake I just made. (I will not use specific names of dealerships or whatever now. Not sure they are as relevant as the bigger picture issue here...but I can share offline with you if you think it is relevant.) You judge...

*Background on me:*
- I have purchased a BMW moto (R1150), three BMW 5-series cars and a Landcruiser via the internet during the last 10 years +or-. Until now, all good.
- I am a tenured, business professional who has extensive professional background managing large corp transactions. I understand "caveat emptor" and perform thorough due diligence before purchasing all higher-$ items online: cars, jewelry, electronics, etc. My DD for this car was thorough and described below.

*Scenario:*
- In late July of 2011, I found an independent dealer (non-BMW) in Florida offering an '08 550. Nice car marketed as having an included BMW Certified Factory Warranty "CPO".
- The Carfax the independent dealer sent me showed the car history and that the car had been offered for sale in April as a BMW Factory CPO car.
- Since other BMWs I had purchased in the past were also out of state CPOs, I knew the routine. I should call the BMW dealership where the car had been previously serviced (in this case FL) and my local BMW dealership (TN) to confirm said CPO-status for myself.
- Either July 26th or 27th I talked to the local Florida BMW dealership that had CPO'd the car. The service tech rep there verified CPO through 2014 (or 100k of course) and gave me a quick service synopsis of the car. 
- The same day, I also called my local BMW dealership (in TN) with the same VIN to hopefully learn more about service history, if available. TN BMW Dealer Customer Service Tech also verified the CPO end-date of 2014 and a few of the same service items that the FL BMW dealer service tech rep had confirmed as well.
- I also hired a third-party car inspector to physically inspect and drive the car at the independent dealer's lot. That checked-out fine too.
- I purchased the car and had it delivered a week or two later. Nice car. Now fast forward the things 6 months to today...

- Today (01/23/2012) I drop off the car at my local BMW dealer (same one I called to re-verify CPO above) to have them replace a few, small nuisance-things under CPO. Surpise, the BMW database now shows no record of this car as a CPO. None. Zero. Squat.
- I asked to see the Head of Service (BMW TN) and explained things as they transpired. He pulled a brand new Carfax (I didn't ask, he just did that), which still shows the car offered as BMW CPO in April of 2010. Still shows it went to auction in June too. Both things I knew. He used the Carfax to deduce car history trail, I am guessing.
- My local TN BMW Service Tech Mgr calls the FL BMW dealership and talks to someone who checks their local (FL BMW) records. Initially FL BMW says (while I am there listening to the call) that they (FL BMW Dealer) CPO'd and filed that April-08, 2011. FL-guy would verify things on his end, find out why it was not showing in the BMW system and call my dealer rep back. 
- Hour later, FL BMW calls TN BMW back to report that they had filed that CPO when they offered the car for sale at the authorized BMW dealership. It didn't sell locally, so FL BMW auctioned car in June and somewhere along the line they "rescinded" the filed CPO.

...............................

Remember, at the end of July I called two separate BMW dealers who both took my VIN and verified CPO through 2014...no mention of "filed CPO" or "pending CPO that could be rescinded"...both verified a BMW CPO thru 2014 using the BMW Dealership computer system. Again, I verified CPO at the very end of July...yes, July is after April (dealer-listing as CPO) and after June (dealer-auction.)

...............................

- So today after TN BMW verified to me FL BMW's "rescinded CPO" and no existing CPO, he became less-helpful and would answer no more of my questions other than suggesting I call BMWNA. Click.
- An hour call with a BMWNA CSR and also a BMWNA CSR Mgr...even more nothing. VIN never shows-up in their BMWNA CPO system. Sorry, consumer. (BTW, if I wasn't the owner of the VIN, they would not have shared that info in the first place.)
*- If it never was a CPO fine, but why-why-why did it show up as a CPO verified by two different BMW Dealerships in two different states? Why?*
- What else can a consumer do except rely on a dealer to verify the CPO pre-purchase regardless of who offers the BMW for sale at anytime? BMW CPO stays with car, not owner.
- BMWNA suggests that maybe the BMW Dealerships use another system for sharing CPO info (but that he wouldn't know for sure.) That makes less than little sense, but he just wanted me off the phone and to quit asking him questions. 
- BMWNA CSR Mgr also says that BMW Dealers should only give out CPO and service history info to BMW owners anyway. He is not sure how the inaccurate CPO info was shared and I am on my own now.
- I just called the independent (non BMW) dealer who sold me the car. He claims he called BMW when he first bought the car from auction (June), and FL BMW verified the CPO info to him as well and that is why he included it in his marketing.

*My questions/concerns:*
- Carfax boldly listed (and still lists!) this car as "BMW Certified Pre-Owned" because the FL Dealer listed it as that in April of 2010 before they decided to go to auction and evidently strip the CPO back-out. Carfax then (and today) makes this car appear CPO-valid even if it is not. In my opinion, Carfax helps perpetrate this misinformation/fraud (hopefully unknowingly). How in heaven's name would a consumer know to doubt this as anything other than once-a-CPO-always-a-CPO? Especially as this is validated by Carfax verbiage.
- WORSE TO ME than the Carfax debacle...a pending or filed CPO-qualification must get into the BMW Dealership computer network as generic CPO info at least for a short period of time. This is what I think sucks most of all! 'Caveat emptor' made me dismiss Carfax and the claim by the independent dealer. What is the most thorough way then to validate BMW CPO when buying a purported BMW CPO car? Call an authorized BMW dealer, right? Better yet, call two BMW dealers to validate. Peace of mind or so I thought.

*Anyone more familiar with the authorized BMW Dealer network of CPO info sharing to help me out or to better understand what just happened to me on BMW side-of-things?*

*Anyone been similarly "frauded/duped/misinformed" by an independent dealer actively working the same "loophole" using Carfax CPO verbiage and the BMW network database info flow?*

*Is Carfax really just that useless or does anyone else see them listing this as a BMW CPO vehicle equally misleading...bordering on used car information 'malpractice'?*

Thanks in advance. Any help and/or constructive suggestions are appreciated.


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## icuc (Dec 31, 2011)

To my understanding, CPO will be offered only if you buy the vehicle from the dealer or it should be transferred from other party.


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## chasz17 (May 4, 2007)

icuc, the CPO certification follows the vehicle not the owner. 

To the OP, on the DAVIS report it probably said under CPO status PENDING. If I'm following your time line correctly, the BMW dealership wholesaled the vehicle to an independent and then never filed the final CPO paperwork to the final RETAIL buyer as they, the BMW dealership never had one. Why would they spend over $2k when they never needed to. The dealership will send the final paperwork AND payment when the vehicle is delivered to the retail buyer. 

The indy actually misrepresented the car and, again if I'm following your timeline correctly, AND you have the P&S stating that this is a BMW CPO vehicle, you have a good cause of action in a small claims court in Florida for misrepresentation.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

chasz17 said:


> icuc, the CPO certification follows the vehicle not the owner.
> 
> To the OP, on the DAVIS report it probably said under CPO status PENDING. If I'm following your time line correctly, the BMW dealership wholesaled the vehicle to an independent and then never filed the final CPO paperwork to the final RETAIL buyer as they, the BMW dealership never had one. Why would they spend over $2k when they never needed to. The dealership will send the final paperwork AND payment when the vehicle is delivered to the retail buyer.
> 
> The indy actually misrepresented the car and, again if I'm following your timeline correctly, AND you have the P&S stating that this is a BMW CPO vehicle, you have a good cause of action in a small claims court in Florida for misrepresentation.


^^ yup, there's the answer

When a BMW dealer puts a car for sale on their lot as a CPO, they do the inspection and then put it for sale. During that time, it is in "CPO Pending" status and it is not actually a CPO car. Only if the dealer sells it to a retail buyer and reports it sold as a CPO car will the CPO warranty be "activated" and then (and only then) does it become a CPO car.

In your case, based on the timeline, the dealer couldn't sell it and shipped it to auction. When they do that, they unenroll the car from the CPO program and it removes the "pending" status. They are not rescinding coverage since it was never retailed as a CPO and the warranty was never activated.

Shame on the two dealers you called for not noticing that it said "CPO: Pending" instead of "CPO: Active" when they pulled up the service history, but there really is nothing you can do. You didn't buy it from a BMW dealer and a used car lot has no ability to sell an actual CPO BMW (they can only sell cars that were previously retailed as CPO and still retain the warranty for future buyers... which is not the case on your car).

And for the record, this is one of the reasons why BMW does not want dealers sharing service histories. They do not want to get complaints when there are misunderstandings like this. Trust me, it happens A LOT... I used to see this stuff all the time.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

so the next point is... what can be done about it?

You can't buy CPO. And there is absolutely zero-zilch-no-way-in-hell chance you will get the car CPO'd at this point. 

Provided you are still under factory warranty (sounds like you might be), you CAN buy a BMW extended warranty that will have essentially the same coverage as a CPO. You can work with the dealer where you bought the car to see if you can convince them to share some (or all) of the cost given that they contributed to your confusion and potentially misrepresented the vehicle.


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## bbqBiker (Jun 20, 2007)

Sarafil, you are thinking what I am thinking at this point too...FYI, I have 60k on this 2008 550 now. I think the independent dealer is the car professional in this instance, who clearly misrepresented the car (intentionally or not) as a BMW CPO (touted on his website that I have cached and in his email correspondence with me.) 

The Carfax docs are still misleading as hell and BMW dealers failed my redundancy too. However, if I botch an M&A deal purposefully or not, I still have a fiduciary duty to my clients and would expect their same response. Not sure if FL small claims will agree with me, but maybe the dealer will step-up and that will not be necessary. Hm.


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## Campfamily (Sep 20, 2010)

I had a very similar scenario, but different result, when I was buying my 550i. One of the cars I was looking at was at an independent dealer here in Los Angeles that specializes in late model BMWs (typically have 50+ BMWs in their inventory at any one time). This car, along with many in their inventory, had a banner across the windshield stating it was a BMW Certified Pre-Owned Car. The advertisement on the Internet said the same (that the car was a BMW CPO car), but also stated that the car was only covered under the original factory warranty, and gave the expiration date. When I went out to test drive the car, the salesman told me that they had purchased the car on auction from a dealer that had previously offered the car as a CPO used car, which is why the banner was on the windshield, but decided to auction it after it didn't sell (this car was a manual transmission car, which are hard to sell, according to many salesman). He was extremely clear that the car did not have any warranty other than the remaining factory warranty, although I could purchase an extended warranty from him if I wanted.

In my opinion, for what it is worth, the dealer that sold you the car made a mistake when he told you the car had a CPO warranty. Whether he acted in good faith on bad information, or whether he intentionally mis-lead you, may be a decision that a judge will have to make, if you decide to pursue this.

Keith


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## Bremen Ben (Sep 1, 2008)

Campfamily said:


> In my opinion, for what it is worth, the dealer that sold you the car made a mistake when he told you the car had a CPO warranty. Whether he acted in good faith on bad information, or whether he intentionally mis-lead you, may be a decision that a judge will have to make, if you decide to pursue this.
> 
> Keith


I suspect the seller would know this information. I have looked at a E60 550 a few years ago listed by an ebay seller. I told him according to the Autocheck the car was listed as a CPO by a BMW dealership local to him. The ebay seller told me that was no longer the case. He explained the BMW dealership had indeed inspected and prepped the car for CPO, but the car sat on the dealer lot for 2 months and subsequently got auctioned off to him. Once that happened the CPO would not go through the system since he is not a BMW dealership.

If an ebay seller (not a big outfit by any definition) knows about this, there is little reason that any more established used car dealer would know less. In any event I agree that OP should go back to the dealer whom he bought the car from to resolve this.


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## bbqBiker (Jun 20, 2007)

OP now thinks the licensed dealer knew (or certainly should have). 
After my call, he sounded too buddy-buddy with some guy from that authorized BMW dealership. 
If you make your living buying and selling BMW's, you know the system.

OP also thinks BMWNA and the local dealership were both far too quick to disclaim any understanding of CPO and pending-CPO in the main BMW Service computer system.
It is my understanding now that CPO can be full or pending in the BMW system. 
Whether BMW should be able to tell a prospective buyer or not about CPO and previous history (they should, I sincerely believe).
They did tell me something incorrectly or not fully..twice in two authorized BMW dealers in two states.
I made a buying decision based on what should be infallible...BMW corporate VIN-validation. 

OP's thoughts on Carfax? Don't get me started. 
Post "Certified BMW Warranty" in big-bold, certified lettering across your report...WTF? 
Wrong. Why do they sell an expensive consumer-focused report and assume no reliability whatsoever for right/wrong in that consumer report?
Especially something like so potentially ambiguous and potentially misleading as "Factory CPO"?

Regardless, I thought I had all three due diligence ducks in a row (dealer, BMW, and Carfax.)
Come to find out I didn't have any of the three. Wow.

Check back for more details as they emerge.
Please keep ideas/thoughts/strategies coming because the OP does appreciate it all!

Thanks,
OP


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your problem OP but I dismissed Carfax long ago as a waste of money and unreliable at best for any information on any vehicle at any time. Now BMW Dealer that's another story but since it wasn't a car on their lot they were very careless on how they divulged information to you. Ultimately its between you and the Used car dealer and you know how upfront and honest they can be especially if they're from FL, dealers in FL are mostly thieves and lier's and I'm being nice, thats been my experience unfortunately!


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

Elias said:


> Sorry to hear about your problem OP but I dismissed Carfax long ago as a waste of money and unreliable at best for any information on any vehicle at any time. Now BMW Dealer that's another story but since it wasn't a car on their lot they were very careless on how they divulged information to you. Ultimately its between you and the Used car dealer and you know how upfront and honest they can be especially if they're from FL, dealers in FL are mostly thieves and lier's and I'm being nice, thats been my experience unfortunately!


I don't think you need to limit it to FL. Used cars dealers have had a bad reputation for a very very long time. Still, never attribute to malice what can easily explain via laziness. I doubt the used car dealer looked into it deeply. Still, I'd sue the used car dealer for the cost of an extended warranty, because the car was sold under the impression it had one. However, suing an out-of-state dealer might not be cost effective.

I gave up on Carfax after (just for kicks) seeing perfectly clean Carfax data on my own truck, that I knew had been in accidents while I owned it.

Still, this gives any one buying a used BMW from a non-BMW dealership pause when claims of CPO status are given. As the saying goes, get it in writing.


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## TRS550 (Jan 2, 2010)

Sorry to hear of your predicament.

However, since you've bought CPO BMW's in the past, you also know all of your CPO paperwork shows up in your mailbox a couple of weeks after you buy the car.

That missing paperwork was your red flag.


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

I bought my first BMW off a very good Independent BMW used car dealer but they have a stellar reputation for sales and service and are highly recommended by BMWCCA. There are good ones out there, you just have to really do your homework, especially if its an out of State Dealer.


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## PAULIN540I (Dec 10, 2011)

RE: Carfax
If they point out a problem --that can be relied upon !
No problems pointed out---carfax is meaningless except for where the car has been used.


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## dalekressin (Sep 3, 2008)

This is an excellent discussion.
Makes me understand the value of new car purchase compared to used.


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## Highmodulus (Aug 16, 2011)

Especially seeing how expensive CPO cars are lately.


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## BeemerGuy (Jan 18, 2007)

So, is there an update to this predicament? 

Oh, and thanks to the OP for sharing this story. It's good information for all of us to know, especially when buying a used car of any kind. I too had a CPO used car issue once, but fortunately mine was resolved without any bad consequences.


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## Virginia Bill (Oct 18, 2005)

TRS550 said:


> Sorry to hear of your predicament.
> 
> However, since you've bought CPO BMW's in the past, you also know all of your CPO paperwork shows up in your mailbox a couple of weeks after you buy the car.
> 
> That missing paperwork was your red flag.


Right. CPO is a warranty contract with BMWNA. After buying the car from a BMW dealer, you get the warranty documents in the mail.

In this case the OP appears not to have understood the details of the system -- easy to do given the way BMW describes the CPO program (emphasizing the pre-sale inspection) and the way ignorant/unscrupulous independent sellers claim CPO status.


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## prolixalias (May 23, 2012)

I have a somewhat similar situation, just with a twist on dealer. I purchased a "CPO" BMW 5-series from a BMW dealer. Now, at the end (a couple weeks of supposed CPO warranty left) of the CPO period I find out the vehicle isn't actually CPO'd. It was represented as such (on their website and by the salesman) including a CPO folder with CPO brochure-type inserts and a warranty history print-out with CPO "pending" in it. They had to have known it wasn't CPO --- since they've done half-a-dozen "warranty" repairs since my purchase and never said a word.

My first time at an out of area dealership I found out it was never CPO'd. It went from "pending" to nothing sometime after I purchased it... Their solution (place I bought it from) was that they'd put it on a flat-bed and take it "home" to their dealership to complete the repairs.

I refused and contacted a lawyer.

Any thoughts on what I can expect to recover? I'm hoping for full purchase price refunded and keep the car to sell on my own after the fact. Am I in the ballpark? Has any one else experienced misrepresentation from an ACTUAL BMW dealership? 

Thanks for any insight.


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## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

prolixalias said:


> I refused and contacted a lawyer.
> 
> Any thoughts on what I can expect to recover? I'm hoping for full purchase price refunded and keep the car to sell on my own after the fact. Am I in the ballpark? Has any one else experienced misrepresentation from an ACTUAL BMW dealership?
> 
> Thanks for any insight.


What you can expect to recover is the out of pocket costs of repairs you spent that should have been covered under the represented warranty assuming you have in writing the represented warranty.

Asking for the full purchase price PLUS keeping the car is out of the question and quite rediculous TBH. The law is meant to put you in your contractually agreed position, you are not entitled to be tens of thousands of dollars ahead.

I'm no lawyer, but that's just common sense.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

prolixalias said:


> I have a somewhat similar situation, just with a twist on dealer. I purchased a "CPO" BMW 5-series from a BMW dealer. Now, at the end (a couple weeks of supposed CPO warranty left) of the CPO period I find out the vehicle isn't actually CPO'd. It was represented as such (on their website and by the salesman) including a CPO folder with CPO brochure-type inserts and a warranty history print-out with CPO "pending" in it. They had to have known it wasn't CPO --- since they've done half-a-dozen "warranty" repairs since my purchase and never said a word.
> 
> My first time at an out of area dealership I found out it was never CPO'd. It went from "pending" to nothing sometime after I purchased it... Their solution (place I bought it from) was that they'd put it on a flat-bed and take it "home" to their dealership to complete the repairs.
> 
> ...


Please give the details of your purchase; car details including the date of sale, mileage at time of purchase and the original in-service date of the vehicle. Are you saying you purchased the vehicle from an Authorized BMW Center that sells new and CPO BMWs? What dealership made this sale?

I'm sorry, but your story makes absolutely no sense. What repairs were made by the selling dealer under the CPO warranty?


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## gw3278 (May 11, 2014)

*Same Problem. Anyone have any outcomes to share?*

Bought an X5 listed as CPO by Florida wholesaler who bought it for me at auction 02/2013. Said CPO warranty was good til 08/2015. Come to find out now that it was never certified despite saying so on Carfax. Has anyone who had this problem had any success with cooperation from the dealer you bought it from or any success from the courts? I'm just beginning my battle and would love any advice.


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## BeemerGuy (Jan 18, 2007)

I had a similar problem with a Porsche that I bought directly from the second owner who had purchased it as CPO. When I went to the dealer to verify the warranty before buying it (in hindsight, you probably should have done that as well), we discovered that the selling dealer had never sent in the paperwork. They rectified it, and later I had a warranty claim and it was handled without a problem. Natch this was easier because the actual person who bought the car CPO was able to motivate them to fix the problem.

You have no recourse against Carfax because they have a disclaimer on the contract when you buy a report. Your claim is against the wholesaler who told you that it was CPO and it is not. He/she needs to resolve this with BMW or buy you a comparable aftermarket warranty or refund some of your money. Hopefully you have this in writing somewhere.

Best of luck.


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## Brandaus (Jan 1, 2016)

I also am having this problem. I paid extra in order to have my BMW dealership sold 335i convertible sold as CPO. I find out later from a dealership where I get servicing that it is not a CPO vehicle. The dealership will not return my emails or my voicemails. BMW North America says there is nothing they can do, only the dealership. So, I guess I need to find a lawyer for this as well...


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## Zyal8r (Jul 14, 2015)

Just a friendly reminder: Any warranty is a contract. It should exist in writing even though it follows the vehicle. It should declare what exactly is covered in detail, who will perform repairs and when. If there are transfer costs, forms need to be obtained and complied with and the fee paid. A warranty I.D. card may also be required. Any thing else like a computer read out is not binding because it can be altered.


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## Oaker55 (Mar 7, 2014)

I think it is quite obvious that anything listed on Carfax regarding CPO status must be taken with a grain of salt. The key here is if the car was *listed* for sale as CPO or whether or not is was *sold* as CPO. If it was listed as listed and then sold at auction, all bets are off. Nothing is true unless you have authentic documents stating the status of the vehicle.

Now that being said, never trust anything contained in a Carfax report. It just doesn't have any legal bearing on anything, period. Also, BMW's CPO program is a joke. Why do I say that? My '13 650xi GC was bought back by BMW for drivetrain malfunction issues and two weeks after I got my new car from the factory, the '13 was sold on the same lot as a CPO car. I would never buy a CPO BMW unless I knew the specific history of the car from an independent reliable source.


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## sampatel1 (Sep 8, 2015)

None of the posters updated the outcome. What happened finally?


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## Miatafanatic77 (Jun 7, 2017)

Carfax is scammer. I checked several cars and it showed no damage at all. Then i used this website https://www.epicvin.com and it shown damages and it even had photo of damages.


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