# "Audi remains a BMW wannabe"



## ccraig13 (Aug 5, 2009)

Just read the article "Audi remains a BMW wannabe" in the latest Roundel. I couldn't agree more. Audi focuses way too much on pretty plastic parts that don't last. Sure the R8 is sick ( mainly because Iron Man has one ) and the RS5 has some serious power but that's where my Audi respect ends. I owned a TT before I saw the light, so I'm not just hating on Audi without any ground.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

Is there a link to the story?

What would you compare the R8 to in the BMW line up?


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

furby076 said:


> What would you compare the R8 to in the BMW line up?


Furb....Furb. This Audi / BMW contention _must die._

She will never be turned. No, not so long as she owns an Audi.

Never. 
.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Link to the story? Pay up and join BMWCCA!!!


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## ccraig13 (Aug 5, 2009)

I don't have a link cause it's from Roundel ( the BMW CCA magazine ) and is only available to subscribers. I could take a screen shot of the online version but I'm not sure if that would be frowned upon by the moderators.

I guess the closest car BMW has to the R8 is the M6. There's some footage of the M6 beating the V8 R8 but I dont think it can beat the V10 R8


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

What would you expect to read in Roundel, that the BMW is an Audi wannabee?


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## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

I say "westwest888" pop up by the page 2.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

CALWATERBOY said:


> Furb....Furb. This Audi / BMW contention _must die._
> 
> She will never be turned. No, not so long as she owns an Audi.
> 
> ...


I bet she hired the dunkin donuts lady



bayoucity said:


> I say "westwest888" pop up by the page 2.


Hmmm..I bet between page 2.5 and 3, more likely 3.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

I love these threads.

If a publication praises BMW or if BMW wins a comparison test the publication is lauded as the Gospel of automotive knowledge.

If they print anything negative about BMW there will be 18 pages of posts about how full of crap they are. Needless to say an article stating that BMW is better than Audi appearing in the official publication of the BMWCCA is not really very surprising. 

CA


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Audis are rebadged Volkswagens.

OK, at least we got that one out of the way.


CA


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

ccraig13 said:


> Just read the article "Audi remains a BMW wannabe" in the latest Roundel. I couldn't agree more. Audi focuses way too much on pretty plastic parts that don't last. Sure the R8 is sick ( mainly because Iron Man has one ) and the RS5 has some serious power but that's where my Audi respect ends. I owned a TT before I saw the light, so I'm not just hating on Audi without any ground.


"Top Gear" put the Audi RS5 against the M3 and the M3 came up on top. Other European car magazine tests revealed the same results (Google Audi RS5 vs M3). The Audi will forever suffer from its AWD weight penalty. It's a pretty car. Odd that Audi, EU thinks that it can get a premium price for its car over the M3.


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## ccraig13 (Aug 5, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> I love these threads.
> 
> If a publication praises BMW or if BMW wins a comparison test the publication is lauded as the Gospel of automotive knowledge.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. I just couldn't help myself 



pointandgo said:


> "Top Gear" put the Audi RS5 against the M3 and the M3 came up on top. Other European car magazine tests revealed the same results (Google Audi RS5 vs M3). The Audi will forever suffer from its AWD weight penalty. It's a pretty car. Odd that Audi, EU thinks that it can get a premium price for its car over the M3.


I haven't seen that one yet. Now I gotta find it! The only video I've seen shows the RS5 as the victor, though the driver said he still prefers the M3.

Ha this thread is heating up more than I had expected.


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## mstrq (Jun 28, 2010)

I haven't read the article but it sure sounds like it deserves a Pulitzer.


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## RaceBlood (May 3, 2010)

If only BMW would hire the Interior designer from Audi...


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

pointandgo said:


> "Top Gear" put the Audi RS5 against the M3 and the M3 came up on top. Other European car magazine tests revealed the same results (Google Audi RS5 vs M3). The Audi will forever suffer from its AWD weight penalty. It's a pretty car. Odd that Audi, EU thinks that it can get a premium price for its car over the M3.


I will read (and draw my conclusions from) any even nominally objective review. This excludes the aforementioned Roundel article -- and TG the show, since it doesn't even attempt to be objective or impartial. If anyone followed JC's recommendations over 16 seasons, nobody would ever have bought a Porsche (and to a lesser extent, BMW - which was labelled the car driven by "cocks" in the UK before that title was later given to Audi). Lets call TG what it is, which is purely entertainment

FWIW, that episode didn't have the M3 "win" over the RS5. The M3 in question was the new ZCP, and it and the Audi were both "rejected" (in lieu of a base M3). I suppose all ZCP owners should just kill themselves now.


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

Audi ads do seem to mention BMW more than BMW ads mention Audi.

It's good, clean, competition. I looked briefly at Audi, but as soon as I learned they had no RWD options, I moved on. (MB had no MT, so they were quickly off my list too.)

Sent from my DROIDX using Bimmer App


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

1985mb said:


> I will read (and draw my conclusions from) any even nominally objective review. This excludes the aforementioned Roundel article -- and TG the show, since it doesn't even attempt to be objective or impartial. If anyone followed JC's recommendations over 16 seasons, nobody would ever have bought a Porsche (and to a lesser extent, BMW - which was labelled the car driven by "cocks" in the UK before that title was later given to Audi). Lets call TG what it is, which is purely entertainment
> 
> FWIW, that episode didn't have the M3 "win" over the RS5. The M3 in question was the new ZCP, and it and the Audi were both "rejected" (in lieu of a base M3). I suppose all ZCP owners should just kill themselves now.


Yes, but there are other E.U magazine tests that put the M3 on top (not by much). You do recognize Audi's problem...the AWD...and the constant power to weight dilemma?


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

pointandgo said:


> Yes, but there are other E.U magazine tests that put the M3 on top (not by much).


Nothing wrong with that. If you want to mention or link to those, it would be perfectly worthy of discussion. I'm sure the open-minded enthusiasts on this board would appreciate any worthwhile review, no matter who "wins"



pointandgo said:


> You do recognize Audi's problem...the AWD...and the constant power to weight dilemma?


AWD isn't the problem in itself. It's not a problem per se in cars ranging from the B8 S4 (mag comparo winner against rwd 335i), Porsche Turbo, R8 etc to the Bugatti Veyron and upcoming Ferrari. The problem for cars like the S5 is weight distribution and it's corollary, unpredictable understeer/oversteer transitions. Another issue is steering feel, which has nothing to do with awd and has been complained about on numerous rwd Mercedes, Lexus and even BMWs


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## Spagolli94 (Jan 27, 2009)

If I wanted another BMW, I'd buy a BMW. Maybe I will when the new 3 comes out. That's why I remain active on this board. I'm a fan of cars. Not just Audi's or BMWs or whatever. For now, I'm still loving my RS4 and haven't looked back. Is the M3 better? Maybe. But if I wanted the M3, I would've bought the M3. 

The funny thing is, when I'm on the RS4 forums, there is no mention of BMWs. But on this forum, there is at least one "Audi sucks" thread per day. Why?

Waiting for somebody to answer, "because Audi sucks." haha


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

1985mb said:


> Nothing wrong with that. If you want to mention or link to those, it would be perfectly worthy of discussion. I'm sure the open-minded enthusiasts on this board would appreciate any worthwhile review, no matter who "wins"
> 
> AWD isn't the problem in itself. It's not a problem per se in cars ranging from the B8 S4 (mag comparo winner against rwd 335i), Porsche Turbo, R8 etc to the Bugatti Veyron and upcoming Ferrari. The problem for cars like the S5 is weight distribution and it's corollary, unpredictable understeer/oversteer transitions. Another issue is steering feel, which has nothing to do with awd and has been complained about on numerous rwd Mercedes, Lexus and even BMWs


Noted, thank you. Although it seems that the Audi S5, RS5 has its "understeer" problems...similar to another car that I know as a former E46 M3 owner. I know all this can be ameliorated with tire adjustments to some extent.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

pointandgo said:


> Noted, thank you. Although it seems that the Audi S5, RS5 has its "understeer" problems...similar to another car that I know as a former E46 M3 owner. I know all this can be ameliorated with tire adjustments to some extent.


When is the Audi RS5 available to order in the US?


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## GiaGiaJa (Sep 6, 2010)

What???? "Audi remains a BMW wannabe"
I only waiting for 1 man who can clarify that!


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## Ausgang (Jan 4, 2002)

A thread like this winds a few dedicated people up, but offers little to change minds. Debating Audi vs. BMW in certain segments is rather like asking someone whether they like their kids more from their first wife/husband vs. those from their second.

From a product perspective in any given segment, we must first of all keep in mind that there is so much cross-over at the tier-1 and tier-2 levels --- where the majority of engineering is done --- and perhaps the majority of manufacturing also. These days OEMs 'design' the envelope into which the requirements for a platform must fit. The same suppliers (Ref: SAE top 500 suppliers list) bid for those contracts across company lines. Yet, the content of what we buy is very much inter-related. 

Not discussed regularly, but a fact nonetheless, is that the reason 'German' vehicles tend to look similar within a generation is largely the result of the influence of tier 1 suppliers. If you doubt this, keep in mind that 'manufacturers' of automobiles are evolving into design (i.e. marketing) centers .... looking for Tier 1 and Tier 2 MANUFACTURERS to fulfill their requirements. OEMS even outsource production line management, just-in-time parts delivery systems, etc. They spend more time on marketing and choosing adverts (and agencies) that reflect their intended message.

The crux of my long-winded reply is that Audi and BMW OVERLAP at the marketing level, and individual buyers should closely evaluate their options. Depending on the given year, and one's own needs, you could easily find 'superior' product one year from one and the next year from the other. This fact is, in part, caused by a LOT of the engineering emphasis being passed along to the suppliers. The result is similar or identical technology being offerred to multiple OEMS. Look, every smart guy in sales is not going to say, "I just sold 200K of these units to XXX. He/She's going to say, "A significant customer in xxxxx is specifying the xxxxx on their next generation xxxxx. German engineers, hating to be laggards on technology, think very differently when faced with a supplier who makes such a statement.

The 'other' factor we fail to grasp in the states is that German industrial policy is supportive of shared technology and processes to the extent that it supports the export market. Thus, the sale of an Audi A4 vs a BMW 3 is relatively the same to policy wonks. 

Aus-in-da-haus

Just don't buy MB. ;-)


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

captainaudio said:


> Audis are rebadged Volkswagens.
> 
> OK, at least we got that one out of the way.
> 
> CA


I know you are joking about but I often wonder why it such a crime for a company to take advantage of technology developed for a mass market brand. VW builds some of the best FWD vehicles on the planet. So, Audi would be dumb not to incorporate any of that wonderful tech into their vehicles. Part of the reason Audi builds a fantastic car is because they benefit from their relationship with VW.

Ditto Acura with regard to Honda.

All that said, I personally don't view Audi as BMW's main competition (at least in North America). That honor goes to Infiniti. The G37 is the most competitive rival of the 3 series, and I like the M37 a lot more than the 5-series.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

The article in Roundel was written by an Audi owner reporting on his experience with his own car. For full disclosure he was a BMW owner who was lured away and says he cannot wait to go back.



Spagolli94 said:


> If I wanted another BMW, I'd buy a BMW. Maybe I will when the new 3 comes out. That's why I remain active on this board. I'm a fan of cars. Not just Audi's or BMWs or whatever. For now, I'm still loving my RS4 and haven't looked back. Is the M3 better? Maybe. But if I wanted the M3, I would've bought the M3.
> 
> The funny thing is, when I'm on the RS4 forums, there is no mention of BMWs. But on this forum, there is at least one "Audi sucks" thread per day. Why?
> 
> Waiting for somebody to answer, "because Audi sucks." haha


Honestly, I think that is probably more or less because the Audi guys are not being chased by the BMW guys. There is no denying that Audi is, in fact, chasing BMW. Worldwide they were 400,000 car sales behind BMW last year.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Where do folks go who are dissatisfied with BMW within this price range and category? Audi and who else?


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## Duncan17 (Nov 23, 2007)

ProfessorCook said:


> Audi ads do seem to mention BMW more than BMW ads mention Audi.
> 
> It's good, clean, competition. I looked briefly at Audi, but as soon as I learned they had no RWD options, I moved on. (MB had no MT, so they were quickly off my list too.)
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Bimmer App


You're way too young to drive a Mercedes. Should be at least 75 before you consider one.....


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## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Where do folks go who are dissatisfied with BMW within this price range and category? Audi and who else?


furby will say "infiniti".


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

GiaGiaJa said:


> What???? "Audi remains a BMW wannabe"
> I only waiting for 1 man who can clarify that!


That's cute. Where did you make that?



bayoucity said:


> furby will say "infiniti".


What's an "infiniti"


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

^^^ It's Allstate's drawing of a typical claims customer.


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## S4RIN (Oct 20, 2010)

Duncan17 said:


> You're way too young to drive a Mercedes. Should be at least 75 before you consider one.....


That's if you're going for something like an E-Class or S-Class.

They have plenty of models that are not old man.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Actually, I'll give Roundel some credit for being more impartial than you'd expect. Often they'll have comparisons w/ other cars and give credit where credit is due. And Mike Miller is not shy about blasting BMW for their wrong-headed engineering decisions and its effects on durability and reliablility. He often recommends that readers buy subarus or hondas and basically says you'd be nuts to own a new BMW past its warranty.

The article in question is the kind of stuff you'd expect to see more of Roundel...and more like the posts you see here. The main focus of it was on Audi's lack of reliability. I just think that any German car owner should be careful abotu the "calling teh kettle black" when it comes to reliablity. All of the german makes have had their chronic issues and unresponsive dealers. If he had complained about weight distribution, steering feel, etc it would have more credence.


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## 07335i_sport (Apr 7, 2010)

captainaudio said:


> Audis are rebadged Volkswagens.
> 
> OK, at least we got that one out of the way.
> 
> CA


But a BMW is just a rebadged Mini ....


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

bayoucity said:


> furby will say "infiniti".


Power without the handling.:thumbdwn:


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

beden1 said:


> What would you expect to read in Roundel, that the BMW is an Audi wannabee?


No, bias does not exist among BMW folk.

We are mature.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

07335i_sport said:


> But a BMW is just a rebadged Mini ....


A Ferrari is just a rebadged Fiat.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Where do folks go who are dissatisfied with BMW within this price range and category? Audi and who else?


Porsche.

Hey....waitaminute....given his recent purchase, _*this cannot be hpowders!*_

*Who are you really, POSEUR!?*


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> I love these threads.
> 
> If a publication praises BMW or if BMW wins a comparison test the publication is lauded as the Gospel of automotive knowledge.
> 
> ...


No, there is no bias among BMW folk.

We are mature.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

1985mb said:


> I will read (and draw my conclusions from) any even nominally objective review. This excludes the aforementioned Roundel article....


No, there is no bias among BMW folk.

We are mature.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

Spagolli94 said:


> The funny thing is, when I'm on the RS4 forums, there is no mention of BMWs. But on this forum, there is at least one "Audi sucks" thread per day. Why?
> 
> Waiting for somebody to answer, "because Audi sucks." haha


No, there is no bias among BMW folk.

We are mature.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Nordic_Kat said:


> Maybe if we say it enough, it will be true.


Dang! Tell that _boy_ to get a drink of low-_cal water_ on me! He's earned it!:rofl:


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## GiaGiaJa (Sep 6, 2010)

furby076 said:


> That's cute. Where did you make that?
> 
> What's an "infiniti"











A simple Paint program will do :thumbup:
And this one for you and Kilgore..... 
With Love,

Gia


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## sekitori (Feb 12, 2009)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Acura = Audi
> 
> When it comes to designing ugly looking grilles, I couldn't agree more.


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## guerilla twang (Jan 17, 2010)

Kilgore Trout said:


> RC cola is just a rebadged Toyota anyway.


Fix't.

KT you'll never guess what I had for lunch.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

hpowders said:


> The best thing Audi could do is buy up all the 335i coupes, replace the run-flats with Pirelli zeros and stamp them as Audi S5's.


One does not simply 'stamp' a 335i, hp.

One _rebadges_.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

guerilla twang said:


> Fix't.
> 
> KT you'll never guess what I had for lunch.


RC Cola -- the best. :thumbup:


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

CALWATERBOY said:


> One does not simply 'stamp' a 335i, hp.
> 
> One _rebadges_.


Okay. Audi should get right on it.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

Nordic_Kat said:


> Maybe if we say it enough, it will be true.


You got it!

A guy says: 'Geez he saying that alot.'

But you see the point....outstanding, Kat. 
.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Dang! Tell that _boy_ to get a drink of low-_cal water_ on me! He's earned it!:rofl:


OK, HP!

Your very amusing response could not be that of westwest888. Abject apologies!


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

CALWATERBOY said:


> OK, HP!
> 
> Your very amusing response could not be that of westwest888. Abject apologies!


Where is he anyway? He doesn't usually walk away from a good Audi/BMW debate.

I think most of us would be quite satisfied with BMW's driving dynamics and the interior designed by Audi in one car.


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## Nordic_Kat (Aug 5, 2009)

CALWATERBOY said:


> You got it!
> 
> A guy says: 'Geez he saying that alot.'
> 
> ...


Just call it a BFO
(blinding flash of the oblivious)


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Wannabe or not if I was using my car to drive around NYC I would take an Audi over a 3 Series any day,

CA


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

I wouldn't drive either one in NYC. I would take the freakin' bus-the shocks would be very BMW-like too!


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## BM32516 (Mar 5, 2011)

I almost got a Jetta, thank god


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Jettas are mediocre.


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## BM32516 (Mar 5, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Jettas are mediocre.


CORRECT!
http://files.sharenator.com/citizen...ared_How_Wed_Get_Laid-s480x360-132744-580.gif


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

BM32516 said:


> CORRECT!
> http://files.sharenator.com/citizen...ared_How_Wed_Get_Laid-s480x360-132744-580.gif


Not only are Jettas mediocre, but poor misguided VW decided to cost cut an already cheap ass car and the latest result is predictably horrible!


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## BM32516 (Mar 5, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Not only are Jettas mediocre, but poor misguided VW decided to cost cut an already cheap ass car and the latest result is predictably horrible!


idk... looks legit


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

BM32516 said:


> idk... looks legit


Folks won't fall for their lies! Just sit inside one of them-cheap ass interior; cheap ass seats. I bet the AT shifter falls off some of them.


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## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

bayoucity said:


> Where is westwest888? I'll change my prediction to page 4. :bigpimp:


Okay that SOB westwest888 is playing shy. I'll change my prediction to page 6.


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## boilers93 (Mar 10, 2011)

I guess it's not possible that Audi and BMW both make good cars? God, please don't tell me this is the BMW fanboys forum. If it is, can somebody direct me to the adult BMW board?


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## Rock36 (Jan 27, 2011)

I love brand rivalries.

I will admit those LED on the Audi are pretty slick, and they stand out even here in Germany where I see like 6 zillion Audis each day.

However, I cross-shopped the BMW 328iT and the Audi A4 wagon, and still found the BMW to suit my individual needs better. I have no real brand loyalty yet to either Audi or BMW.

I do have a thing for the Audi RS3 though.

Looking bac, I don't know what the point of my post was :rofl:. Just some stream of consciousness writing here.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Brand rivalries are terrific because we, the consumers will benefit from the competitive drive to match and surpass the rival.


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## thekurgan (Jul 22, 2007)

boilers93 said:


> I guess it's not possible that Audi and BMW both make good cars? God, please don't tell me this is the BMW fanboys forum. If it is, can somebody direct me to the adult BMW board?


Both are damn good cars, most folks here are reasonable and enjoy driving both as they're both well-built, sound great and both have a cult following. We just drove an A5 MT and found that 2.0 f/i motor sweeeeet, loved to rev, sounded great and had an awesome fit and finish for the interior.


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## guerilla twang (Jan 17, 2010)

boilers93 said:


> If it is, can somebody direct me to the adult BMW board?


Is this a joke? You obviously aren't from around these parts..


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

guerilla twang said:


> Is this a joke? You obviously aren't from around these parts..


If someone has to ask, he should be directed to the children's section. :thumbdwn:


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

Spagolli94 said:


> Sales volume is irrelevant. McDonald's sells the most hamburgers. After owning both brands, i don't think you can clearly say one is better than the other. Hence the debate. Both have good and bad points. In the end, it all comes down to personal/subjective choice. I have no brand loyalty whatsoever. If the next 3 series comes out and rocks, I'll be back in the BMW camp.


Audi's advertising does seem to emphasize comparisons with BMW and M-B products. I don't see BMW keying on Audi in quite the same way though.

And, I'll disagree that one brand is not clearly "better" than the other - at least given what I value in autos. This is entirely subjective but based on the features I think are important in this class of vehicles, I would personally see Audi's product line as a notch or two below BMW's.

Keep in mind that I am not saying BMW > Audi in a absolute sense - just that BMW exceeds Audi on the totally subjective equation that I personally use to guide car choices.


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

boilers93 said:


> I guess it's not possible that Audi and BMW both make good cars? God, please don't tell me this is the BMW fanboys forum. If it is, can somebody direct me to the adult BMW board?


And, if you guys touch any of my stuff, I'll kill you.


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## Spagolli94 (Jan 27, 2009)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Audi's advertising does seem to emphasize comparisons with BMW and M-B products. I don't see BMW keying on Audi in quite the same way though.
> 
> And, I'll disagree that one brand is not clearly "better" than the other - at least given what I value in autos. This is entirely subjective but based on the features I think are important in this class of vehicles, I would personally see Audi's product line as a notch or two below BMW's.
> 
> Keep in mind that I am not saying BMW > Audi in a absolute sense - just that BMW exceeds Audi on the totally subjective equation that I personally use to guide car choices.


You hit the nail on the head. The BMW has a more connected feel to it, no doubt. More road feel. But being that I live in an urban area with crappy roads, the BMW seemed to amplify the crappiness and really remind me of every little crack or imperfection in the road. While with the Audi, I still get a very solid, planted feel - just without so much road feel. So for me Audi is the better choice. But I can certainly see how for those who live around better roads, the BMW would be the better choice. Plus, looking at the lower-end models, I don't think the 2.0T can hold a candle to the inline 6. I remember I absolutely loved the engine and transmission in my 330i. It always felt much more powerful than the 250hp it was rated and sounded oh so sweet.

Now that I have the RS4, I suppose the BMW equivalent would be a M3 sedan. I've never driven one though, so I can't compare.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

hpowders said:


> If only Audi would hire the driving dynamics department of BMW.


Why would they if they had Porsche?


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

sf_loft said:


> Why would they if they had Porsche?


You think they really communicate?


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## HPIA4v2 (Mar 30, 2006)

hpowders said:


> You think they really communicate?


Yeah like FBI and CIA prior to 9/11, wait even now:bigpimp:


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

HPIA4v2 said:


> Yeah like FBI and CIA prior to 9/11, wait even now:bigpimp:


Yeah. I was thinking the same thing.

Like back in the good old GM days, Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Pontiac and Chevrolet engineers were out partying together.


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> Wannabe or not if I was using my car to drive around NYC I would take an Audi over a 3 Series any day.


Porsche?


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

CALWATERBOY said:


> Porsche?


My car is primarily a weekend fun car but I do need a certain amount of practicality and I need a (semi) usable rear seat and enough cargo space to use the car as a "family grocery getter". I can't get past the looks of the Panamera and the Cayman or 911 are not going to work for me as my only car. At $500 per month for a parking space I am not about to have two cars sitting in the garage 90% of the time.

CA


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> My car is primarily a weekend fun car but I do need a certain amount of practicality and I need a (semi) usable rear seat and enough cargo space to use the car as a "family grocery getter". I cna't get past the looks of the Panamera and the Cayman or 911 are not going to work for me as my only car. At $500 per month for a parking space I am not about to have two cars sitting in the garage 90% of the time.


All pretty good points.

Have a brace o'Odyssey's to supplement toys -- work well as haulers of kids or Costco booty.

3's my fun car, but, might go hp's route. Love the bottomless Porsche suspension!
.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

My car is an every day fun car.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

hpowders said:


> My car is an every day fun car.


Aren't you the guy that said that anyone who uses a Porsche as a daily driver is insane?

CA


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

captainaudio said:


> Aren't you the guy that said that anyone who uses a Porsche as a daily driver is insane?
> 
> CA


Nope. I'm the guy who said anyone who uses a Cayman as a daily driver is nuts-from the perspective of a 6'2" driver. The 911 has more room-not as much as the 328i, but a whole lot better than the Cayman. Also, I still have the 328i. The 911 is not alone.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

hpowders said:


> Nope. I'm the guy who said anyone who uses a Cayman as a daily driver is nuts-from the perspective of a 6'2" driver. The 911 has more room-not as much as the 328i, but a whole lot better than the Cayman. Also, I still have the 328i. The 911 is not alone.


A number of my friends from the Planet-9 Nor'Easters have both Caymans and 911s. The general consensus is that the more spacious cabin of the 911 makes it a better car for long trips.

CA


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

CALWATERBOY said:


> I've noticed BMW owners are a rascally bunch, not content with the usual thing. Maybe the Munich engineers have a philosophy and intent to create a certain space....they seem to....
> 
> Owners of these cars may be expected to explore much more than an OP begins a thread with, and be sensitive to competitors. They have a level of passion. Contrariness. Curiosity. Youth. Humor.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

CALWATERBOY said:


> I've noticed BMW owners are a rascally bunch, not content with the usual thing. Maybe the Munich engineers have a philosophy and intent to create a certain space....they seem to....
> 
> Owners of these cars may be expected to explore much more than an OP begins a thread with, and be sensitive to competitors. They have a level of passion. Contrariness. Curiosity. Youth. Humor.
> 
> ...





pointandgo said:


> Yes, I do.


Me, too. I've said in the past BMW owners tend to like to do things for themselves and Mercedes owners tend to like to have things done for them. I've had several Merc people agree with that assessment.

Now, Audi people, I don't have a such a certain grasp of. I think you could say they like to be as much like BMW people as they can, but they also want to be pretty as they drive around. :dunno:


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

beden1 said:


> No F'n way that law should be changed. It's now being strongly enforced by the states, starting the last few years where the LEOs are ticketing drivers who do not comply. You must have seen the TV ads in Florida. They are on all of the time.
> 
> I don't want to start a race war, but the black female drivers in Florida are the worst offenders. I swear to God they stay in the left lane just to stick it to the man. It pisses me off to no end, particularly when I've been on the road for over 12-16 hours driving down from PA to Florida.


I've never seen that, but I mostly drive in Florida.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

I honestly haven't read this whole thread, but you all must remember the source for that article is Roundel - they don't drink BMW Kool-Aid, they are swimming in it.

How about this article on Autoblog: "Is BMW becoming too soft."

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/09/opinion-is-bmw-becoming-too-soft/

As an insider, and someone who drives every car from every manufacturer, I am worried about BMW's direction. The 3 Series is stellar (and getting old), but the 5 Series and 7 Series not at the top of their segment... and they are new.

In the "old" days, BMW made some of the best cars in the world.

- Mike

P.S. - I'm moving this to General BMW shortly.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

+1

The article in Roundel was one person's experience - with one car - and could have been written about any German car, BMW included. 

Personally, I think Audi has become a highly compelling alternative to BMW and Mercedes and they make some absolutely excellent products.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

swajames said:


> +1
> 
> The article in Roundel was one person's experience - with one car - and could have been written about any German car, BMW included.
> 
> Personally,* I think Audi has become a highly compelling alternative to BMW and Mercedes and they make some absolutely excellent products*.


Nearly all automotive journalists, myself included, would agree. I still feel the M3 is more enjoyable to drive when compared to the S4 (subjectively)... but the next 3 Series had better be stellar....

Interestingly enough, I am going to the Sebring race in Florida this week and Audi is giving me a new A8 to drive while I am there. I've spent tons of time in the 7 Series, XJ and S-Class, so this will be interesting.

- Mike


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## CALWATERBOY (Aug 26, 2009)

beden1 said:


> The Uniform Vehicle Code states:
> 
> Upon all roadways any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic ...
> 
> "Note that this *law* refers to the "normal" speed of traffic, not the "legal" speed of traffic. The 60 MPH driver in a 55 MPH zone where everybody else is going 65 MPH must move right."


Good luck with that! Much over the limit, I want to see you convince Smokey to enforce that reg. Let's say....about over limit as hp was driving.

Can you do YouTube? With your cell phone?

Go to it, Lad -- _you've a fire in your belly!_ :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Emission said:


> I honestly haven't read this whole thread, but you all must remember the source for that article is Roundel - they don't drink BMW Kool-Aid, they are swimming in it.
> 
> How about this article on Autoblog: "Is BMW becoming too soft."
> 
> ...


I think Bimmer magazine is swimming in BMW Kool-Aid as well. In their lastest issue they reviewed a F10 535i 6 speed and they basically said anyone who criticized the F10 steering is on drugs :rofl:.

Mike what car do you think is the best in class in the midsize luxury segment. When I drove the F10 I thought it was the best ever regular eclass but it was missing its bmwness. I also think the 7series is not top in its class. I think the S class is better. In addition, I also believe the Mercedes Sl is better than the old 6 series.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

eazy said:


> I think Bimmer magazine is swimming in BMW Kool-Aid as well. In their lastest issue they reviewed a F10 535i 6 speed and they basically said anyone who criticized the F10 steering is on drugs :rofl:.
> 
> Mike what car do you think is the best in class in the midsize luxury segment. When I drove the F10 I thought it was the best ever regular eclass but it was missing its bmwness. I also think the 7series is not top in its class. I think the S class is better. In addition, I also believe the Mercedes Sl is better than the old 6 series.


That's a tough question.

A decade ago, BMW dominated the mid-size sport sedan segment with its 5 Series (E39 6MT and E39 M5). Sporty, tossable and fun to drive. However, the segment has changed quite a bit since then.

Today, it is all about _*luxury*_. As I said in my review of the F10 550i, it is much more of a miniature 7 Series than a larger 3 Series. Most of the "sport" is sadly gone. The new 5 Series is seriously overweight and isolated. While that is just fine for those looking at the brand for the first time, previous-gen 5 owners are left frustrated with nothing to replace their current rides. My dad, a three-generation 5 Series owner (now in an E39 6MT), and my brother (E60 6MT) are both at a loss when it comes to replacing their cars...

That said, I think the current segment leader in the "midsize luxury" segment is the new '12 A6, followed by the E-Class. I'd put the 5 Series in third, followed by the Infiniti M (while I do like the new '12 Infiniti M35h Hybrid), the transmission on the standard M drives me nuts.

I bought several 3 Series models because I could never find a 5 Series that was fun to drive... I almost got an E60 (glad I didn't).

- Mike


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Emission said:


> That's a tough question.
> 
> A decade ago, BMW dominated the mid-size sport sedan segment with its 5 Series (E39 6MT and E39 M5). Sporty, tossable and fun to drive. However, the segment has changed quite a bit since then.
> 
> ...


Have you driven the 2012 A6 yet? I think the 2012 A6 design looks like a bigger A4 which is not a bad thing. It is kind of sad that the 2012 A6 with Quattro wieghts less than a F10 with RWD.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

eazy said:


> Have you driven the 2012 A6 yet? I think the 2012 A6 design looks like a bigger A4 which is not a bad thing. It is kind of sad that the 2012 A6 with Quattro wieghts less than a F10 with RWD.


I will drive it this Thursday, in Florida. However, my peers have told me its pretty amazing.

That said, it isn't a "sport sedan" like the 5 Series should have been. BMW made the 5 Series a luxury sedan... and lost its way. 

- Mike


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## AlexK (Jul 25, 2009)

Emission said:


> I will drive it this Thursday, in Florida. However, my peers have told me its pretty amazing.
> 
> - Mike


It would be interesting to read that review. From what I've seen so far, the new A6 is absolutely awful from purely aesthetic point of view (I really dislike the new all-LED, "emo"-looking headlights, as well as many interior elements).


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Emission said:


> I honestly haven't read this whole thread, but you all must remember the source for that article is Roundel - they don't drink BMW Kool-Aid, they are swimming in it.
> 
> How about this article on Autoblog: "Is BMW becoming too soft."
> 
> ...


Read the autoblog article. Kinda on point. The scarier thing is that there isn't a manufacturer for us to turn to. As soft as BMW is becoming, the competitors are even worse. Infiniti engines still feel coarse and they don't make a compact sedan; Audi's still got a massive problem with quality, costs and dealer service; Mazda was once a junior low price BMW but now they just make cars without much thought to performance; Acura/Honda curled up and died about a decade ago. What's left?

While BMW's gone soft, everybody else seems to have melted or just never really improved.


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## AlexK (Jul 25, 2009)

blueguydotcom said:


> While BMW's gone soft, *everybody else* seems to have melted or just never really improved.


http://www.hyundaiusa.com/genesis-coupe/
Manual transmission, naturally-aspirated 300hp engine, sport-tuned suspension, mechanical LSD, Brembo brakes. Of course, it's not as expensive as "premium" cars and doesn't have a "premium" badge, so earning other people's "respect" might be an issue


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

AlexK said:


> It would be interesting to read that review. From what I've seen so far, the new A6 is absolutely awful from purely aesthetic point of view (I really dislike the new all-LED, "emo"-looking headlights, as well as many interior elements).


I'm not reviewing the A6, I'll just get to drive it. I'm flying out to hang with the Audi team at the Sebring 12 Hour race (and cover it from the pits).



blueguydotcom said:


> Read the autoblog article. Kinda on point. The scarier thing is that there isn't a manufacturer for us to turn to. As soft as BMW is becoming, the competitors are even worse. Infiniti engines still feel coarse and they don't make a compact sedan; Audi's still got a massive problem with quality, costs and dealer service; Mazda was once a junior low price BMW but now they just make cars without much thought to performance; Acura/Honda curled up and died about a decade ago. What's left?
> 
> While BMW's gone soft, everybody else seems to have melted or just never really improved.


I agree. BMW is still the only "sport sedan" option... I just wish they were sportier.

Years ago, I left BMW for an Infiniti G35 6MT. Regretted it immediately, and replaced it with an E90 335i 6MT. I have the Audi now, and I really miss the 3 Series.



AlexK said:


> http://www.hyundaiusa.com/genesis-coupe/
> Manual transmission, naturally-aspirated 300hp engine, sport-tuned suspension, mechanical LSD, Brembo brakes. Of course, it's not as expensive as "premium" cars and doesn't have a "premium" badge, so earning other people's "respect" might be an issue


The Genesis Coupe is nice (and I like it a lot), but far from a E92 when it comes to chassis dynamics, fit and finish and interior appointments. Different price point completely. A BMW owner won't be happy dropping down to a Gen Coupe.

- Mike


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## AlexK (Jul 25, 2009)

Emission said:


> The Genesis Coupe is nice (and I like it a lot), but far from a E92 when it comes to chassis dynamics, fit and finish and interior appointments.
> - Mike


They are still learning... BMW also didn't come up with their "chassis dynamics" overnight  As far as for fit and finish - a "true enthusiast" shouldn't care about such minor things


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

AlexK said:


> They are still learning... BMW also didn't come up with their "chassis dynamics" overnight  As far as for fit and finish - a "true enthusiast" shouldn't care about such minor things


I should have clarified... substitute "fit and finish" for "mechanical perfection" (I like the mechanicals to feel solid and expensive). I don't give a hoot about infotainment systems.

- Mike


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## Justin T (Oct 10, 2006)

Just stumbled upon this thread...

I have two BMWs; both of which are pretty agressive cars. I had the B5 S4 and loved it to death. Of course, I swapped out the suspension, ECU, exhaust, blah blah blah, but the car was wonderful.

I think comparing the two brands to try and come up with a winner is silly. They have their strong suits and weaknesses across the board. For example, I would much rather have an auto 328i versus the stupid CVT FWD A4; not even a discussion. Much rather have a Z4 than a TT. Rather have a X3 than a Q5. But, after driving the S4 yesterday, I would rock that over a 335... That was a very nice ride... I still take my M3 sedan over the RS4, but I bet I would prefer the A6 3.0T over the F10 535...

It is basically puts and takes across the board. Oh, and whoever tried to compare the M6 to the R8...please...


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

AlexK said:


> http://www.hyundaiusa.com/genesis-coupe/
> Manual transmission, naturally-aspirated 300hp engine, sport-tuned suspension, mechanical LSD, Brembo brakes. Of course, it's not as expensive as "premium" cars and doesn't have a "premium" badge, so earning other people's "respect" might be an issue


Maybe, I should have been clear - i was talking about what BMW is known for: sport sedans. Fun, affordable, great driving sedans with a manual. That's a tough thing to find today.


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## ccraig13 (Aug 5, 2009)

Justin T said:


> Oh, and whoever tried to compare the M6 to the R8...please...


The M6 was being compared to the V8 R8.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

GiaGiaJa said:


> You said *195mph*.....? With windows down?


Windows up. A/C off.

- Mike


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

Emission said:


> I drove an Audi R8 5.2 V10 _*195 mph*_ today. Any stock BMWs about to do that? Just sayin'...
> 
> - Mike


The manual tranny? This is a marvelous car...525 HP, 0 - 60 in 3.7 seconds. I envy your driving experience. The price premium over the V-8...$33K! About $146,000 I understand, but priced below the Italian cars that start at $200K. Where is BMW's supercar??


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

pointandgo said:


> The manual tranny? This is a marvelous car...525 HP, 0 - 60 in 3.7 seconds. I envy your driving experience. The price premium over the V-8...$33K! About $146,000 I understand, but priced below the Italian cars that start at $200K. Where is BMW's supercar??


No, the single-clutch automatic. BMW needs another M1... the good one.

- Mike


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

Emission said:


> No, the single-clutch automatic. BMW needs another M1... the good one.
> 
> - Mike


A long time ago. I have a feeling that they can't stand this humiliation; let's wait in anticipation!


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## dnaer (Jan 13, 2011)

Piech reinvented VW/Audi and brought it back from oblivion (it isn't your fathers 5000 anymore). It started with the A4 and just kept getting better. The brands seem pretty equivalent to me and I actually have liked my Audi interiors more than the BMW's. But I am really enjoying the diesel in the 335D.


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## AlexK (Jul 25, 2009)

pointandgo said:


> Where is BMW's supercar??


We already had this kind of topic:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520803
BMW simply has a different view on what is considered a "supercar", or a "showcase car". Whether you agree with it or not doesn't really matter (at least not to BMW).


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

AlexK said:


> We already had this kind of topic:
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520803
> BMW simply has a different view on what is considered a "supercar", or a "showcase car". Whether you agree with it or not doesn't really matter (at least not to BMW).


Noted. Far be it that BMW would overly influenced by competition in deciding their comporate direction; they march to their own drummer (although their hearing seems to be impaired somewhat). I've decided that their 'supercar' is the X6...super heavy, super fuel inefficient, super marketing error...whether you agree with them or not.


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## BigguyinaZ3 (Mar 23, 2011)

Let me start by saying that I have an awesome job where I regularly get to drive (and abuse) new cars. At one time in the not so distant past (08-09) my company had access to BMW's and Audi's. I have to say Audi does have some nice vehicles. But none beat BMW's in terms of fit and finish and sheer driving excitement. 

Audi paint is incredibly soft; scratches and bird-do etchings on the paint were a daily occurrence. I remember one car which had to have the hood repainted as a result of a seagull's drippy wrath. Twice. 

Bottom line is that if you are in the market for a new car drive the Bimmer and the closest comparable Audi. The choice will be clear.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

BigguyinaZ3 said:


> Let me start by saying that I have an awesome job where I regularly get to drive (and abuse) new cars. At one time in the not so distant past (08-09) my company had access to BMW's and Audi's. I have to say Audi does have some nice vehicles. But none beat BMW's in terms of fit and finish and sheer driving excitement.
> 
> Audi paint is incredibly soft; scratches and bird-do etchings on the paint were a daily occurrence. I remember one car which had to have the hood repainted as a result of a seagull's drippy wrath. Twice.
> 
> Bottom line is that if you are in the market for a new car drive the Bimmer and the closest comparable Audi. The choice will be clear.


That really is no longer true. As modern BMW's get bigger, softer and (much) heavier they are far harder to distinguish from the comparable Audi or Mercedes. Take away the biases of ownership, and it is pretty clear to see that the big three German marques now have more similarities than differences. A modern Audi is at least as compelling as a modern BMW, and in many cases for many customers can be even more so.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

swajames said:


> That really is no longer true. As modern BMW's get bigger, softer and (much) heavier they are far harder to distinguish from the comparable Audi or Mercedes. Take away the biases of ownership, and it is pretty clear to see that the big three German marques now have more similarities than differences. A modern Audi is at least as compelling as a modern BMW, and in many cases for many customers can be even more so.


that is so true while the new A6 lost weight the new 6 series gained weight. The reviews for the new 6 series are not that good.

The new 5 series is no longer the sporty choice in its class =(


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

swajames said:


> That really is no longer true. As modern BMW's get bigger, softer and (much) heavier they are far harder to distinguish from the comparable Audi or Mercedes. Take away the biases of ownership, and it is pretty clear to see that the big three German marques now have more similarities than differences. A modern Audi is at least as compelling as a modern BMW, and in many cases for many customers can be even more so.


+1

Audi dropped a brand-new TT 2.0 in my driveway yesterday. I'd take it over the Z4 in a heartbeat. The TT is sporty and fun, while the Z4 is simply overweight.



eazy said:


> that is so true while the new A6 lost weight the new 6 series gained weight. The reviews for the new 6 series are not that good.
> 
> The new 5 series is no longer the sporty choice in its class =(


Exactly.

We are going to have to wait 4-5 years for BMW's "light" chassis to fill showrooms. :tsk:

- Mike


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

Emission said:


> +1
> 
> Audi dropped a brand-new TT 2.0 in my driveway yesterday. I'd take it over the Z4 in a heartbeat. The TT is sporty and fun, while the Z4 is simply overweight.
> 
> ...


Mike, 
Does the TT have the Toyo T1 Sport tires by any chance?


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

pointandgo said:


> Mike,
> Does the TT have the Toyo T1 Sport tires by any chance?


No, I just went out and looked:

Pirelli PZero Rosso 245/40R18

Why?

- Mike


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Emission said:


> +1
> 
> Audi dropped a brand-new TT 2.0 in my driveway yesterday. I'd take it over the Z4 in a heartbeat. The TT is sporty and fun, while the Z4 is simply overweight.
> 
> ...


Mike:

Did you drive the 2012 SLK if so is it sportier than the Z4(which will be sad for the bimmer)?


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

eazy said:


> Mike:
> 
> Did you drive the 2012 SLK if so is it sportier than the Z4(which will be sad for the bimmer)?


I sat in the 2012 SLK in Germany in late January, but I didn't drive it. A few friends have, but they aren't raving about it... The SLK seems like it is a bit sportier, but I want to drive it before I form a judgement (the Z4 just felt heavy and isolated, but it handled well). The TT is fun, but still no Cayman. I keep calling it a mini-R8 (the one I have is a 2.0T Quattro with the DSG).

- Mike


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

Emission said:


> No, I just went out and looked:
> 
> Pirelli PZero Rosso 245/40R18
> 
> ...


I am seeing in the Audi forums that Toyo is showing up as original equipment on more and more platforms: S6, TT, Q7. Just curious. I know that Toyo was OE on Porsche some years ago (early 90's?). I know what Porsche OE tire fitments are all about: Huge prestige, but huge investments for the fitment and no ROI (no volume). As a relatively unkown tire, they seem to be holding their own as a Toyota/Lexus supplier (and other Japanese platforms)...now Audi. Toyo was a strong supporter of the BMW CCA chapters (driving schools) in the Southwest for decades, and many driving instructors/advanced students used their RA1; a decent DOT street tire, now replaced with the R888...mixed feelings about the R888.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

pointandgo said:


> I am seeing in the Audi forums that Toyo is showing up as original equipment on more and more platforms: S6, TT, Q7. Just curious. I know that Toyo was OE on Porsche some years ago (early 90's?). I know what Porsche OE tire fitments are all about: Huge prestige, but huge investments for the fitment and no ROI (no volume). As a relatively unkown tire, they seem to be holding their own as a Toyota/Lexus supplier (and other Japanese platforms)...now Audi. Toyo was a strong supporter of the BMW CCA chapters (driving schools) in the Southwest for decades, and many driving instructors/advanced students used their RA1; a decent DOT street tire, now replaced with the R888...mixed feelings about the R888.


Well, I am sure Audi put the best tires on its press car. 

Interesting you say that. I raced my Boxster spec with Kuhmo Victoracer V700 tires in 2009. In 2010, the spec switched to Toyo R888, and my times went up.  I am not a big fan of the R888... in fact, since my team's Formula Drift car is sponsored by Nitto, I switched over to their NT-01 (R-compound). I've been very happy with that tire. :thumbup: (And I had to pay for them, so I am speaking with my wallet.)

Now, don't quote me, but I've heard the R888 and NT01 have the same basic carcass, but the NT01 has a different compound that is better for endurance, and withstands more heat cycles. Toyo R888 tires are fried after 20+ cycles in a Boxster.

Yeah, the RA1 was a damn fine tire too. :bawling:

- Mike


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

Emission said:


> Well, I am sure Audi put the best tires on its press car.
> 
> Interesting you say that. I raced my Boxster spec with Kuhmo Victoracer V700 tires in 2009. In 2010, the spec switched to Toyo R888, and my times went up.  I am not a big fan of the R888... in fact, since my team's Formula Drift car is sponsored by Nitto, I switched over to their NT-01 (R-compound). I've been very happy with that tire. :thumbup: (And I had to pay for them, so I am speaking with my wallet.)
> 
> ...


Hearing good reports on the Nitto NT01, except for some "open tread splice" issues that may have been resolved now. I believe you are correct on the "same carcass."


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Emission said:


> That's a tough question.
> 
> A decade ago, BMW dominated the mid-size sport sedan segment with its 5 Series (E39 6MT and E39 M5). Sporty, tossable and fun to drive. However, the segment has changed quite a bit since then.
> 
> ...


Mike I have to agree with you in several respects and this is coming from someone who was a VW/Audi fan before I started driving BMW's. I think Audi makes some very good cars and they are better today then they have ever been (BTW the VW Jetta is an awesome car for 16-20 grand....those of you who say otherwise need to compare it to what else is out there for 16-20 grand and then you will realize that VW is way above the others in safety, driving dynamics and performance). However, I do think the BMW's are, by and large, better cars than Audi/MB at a higher price point. When I decided on my E60 535 6MT I compared it to the A6 3.0T and the E350. The 5 was the best car IMHO, but the differences between the three cars was closer than I ever imagined. I remember telling the better half that while I prefered the BMW I was sure I would be happy with either 3 cars. It is important to note that I got the 535 because it ended up being the best price (great CPO deal) AND it had a 6MT. I am fairly certain that, all factors considered, the best bang for the buck (new) is the E350 sport. Im not a MB fan and the last MB I owned was a disaster, but the new MB's handle much closer to BMW/Audi than the older ones. There is a reason why I see a ton of new E350's on the road and only a handful of F10's....price and value (a new E350 is within a couple grand of a similarly equipped 335i). I like the new F10, but I agree that the sport is pretty much gone and it is about 7 grand too expensive.



blueguydotcom said:


> Read the autoblog article. Kinda on point. The scarier thing is that there isn't a manufacturer for us to turn to. As soft as BMW is becoming, the competitors are even worse. Infiniti engines still feel coarse and they don't make a compact sedan; Audi's still got a massive problem with quality, costs and dealer service; Mazda was once a junior low price BMW but now they just make cars without much thought to performance; Acura/Honda curled up and died about a decade ago. What's left?
> 
> While BMW's gone soft, everybody else seems to have melted or just never really improved.


You are also correct. The biggest problem or bad memory of my VW/Audi days is the reliability. Hey, I fully admit that I have had some issues with the HPFP and fuel delivery systems in the N54's that I have owned, but prior to the N54 most of my BMW's were fairly problem free. I am confident that BMW will iron out the fuel delivery issues with time and if they dont then I just will not buy another...enough said. Even today my Audi/VW owning friends report bad dealer service, warranty claim issues, and frequent breakdowns as a mar on the ownership experience. A couple of years ago I was enamored by the Jetta GLI enough to get one as my daily commuter. Had it a month and it was in the shop for electrical issues. It was then I realized that nothing had changed in the VW/Audi reliability department and I dumped it for a 135 coupe. I always look at Audi, but I doubt I ll buy another one because they just cannot seem to get the reliability under control. The BMW's are getting softer, but they still IMHO offer the best combination of safety, reliability, driving dynamics and sport. As soon as another brand beats them in all these I will jump ship and never look back.



Justin T said:


> Just stumbled upon this thread...
> 
> I have two BMWs; both of which are pretty agressive cars. I had the B5 S4 and loved it to death. Of course, I swapped out the suspension, ECU, exhaust, blah blah blah, but the car was wonderful.
> 
> ...


Well said...very well said.



swajames said:


> That really is no longer true. As modern BMW's get bigger, softer and (much) heavier they are far harder to distinguish from the comparable Audi or Mercedes. Take away the biases of ownership, and it is pretty clear to see that the big three German marques now have more similarities than differences. A modern Audi is at least as compelling as a modern BMW, and in many cases for many customers can be even more so.


Agreed. Basically sums up my opinion as well. I think BMW's small cars (1 and 3 series) are more sporty than the MB300 or A3/A4 competitors. However, I think the larger BMW cars (5 and 7) are not a big improvement over the competition A6/A8 and E350/S550. BMW's speciality was always the small sports sedan and that is where they still shine. The larger BMW's are being watered down in the performance segment and, as such, the competition is overtaking BMW. I am serious when I say that I would pick a E350 over a F10 528/535, a Panamera over a 550 and a S550 over a 750.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

In car and driver recent comparo between the 750i, XJ supercharge, & A8. The were basically saying why pay the extra money for the bmw if it was not the sport Oriented car in it class. They also mention that the Jag was the sportier car out of the three. Here is how they rank them.
1st A8
2nd XJ
3rd 750i


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