# Will 330 get Z4 3.0's 6-speed?



## MikeW (Dec 20, 2001)

They found a six speed manual for the three liter in the Z4. It's basically the same engine as the 330. Do you think it will replace the five speed manual? Most of the 330 competition has six cog manuals.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Not likely.

The 6 speed is coming out in March of 2003. The E46 replacement is due out in September 2004. Do the math...It does not make any sense to replace the transmission now to a 6 speed since it cost BMW $100,000,000.00 to certify each transmission. That's why the 330i still uses the ZF unit from the 328i.

However you can bet your *ss that the E46 replacement coming out in 2004 WILL have either an SMG or a 6 speed in one of its trims.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

I hope not, unless the 6 speed offers some real benefit in fuel economy or acceleration. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a gimmick.


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## MikeW (Dec 20, 2001)

It's not a gimmick. With the 6 speed, the car can have 5 close ratio reducing gears for acceleration, and a tall overdrive gear for efficient highway cruising. I think right now the 330's top gear is 1:1. With a six, you have less of a compromise.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

MikeW said:


> *It's not a gimmick. With the 6 speed, the car can have 5 close ratio reducing gears for acceleration, and a tall overdrive gear for efficient highway cruising. I think right now the 330's top gear is 1:1. With a six, you have less of a compromise. *


Wrong. The 6 speed in ALL the BMWs have the same first 5 ratio as their 5 speed counterparts with 5th gear being a direct, 1:1 ratio (except for the E65), and the 6th gear being an overdrive. You will NOT see a closer ratio first 5 gears regardless because to move the first few gears closer means you'll have to make a shift to 3rd to get to 60mph, and you end up with about +.2-.5 second performance DECREASE in the one number EVERYONE looks at.

The M3, M5, 540i, Z4 3.0 ALL have 1:1 5th gear.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

MikeW said:


> *It's not a gimmick. With the 6 speed, the car can have 5 close ratio reducing gears for acceleration, and a tall overdrive gear for efficient highway cruising. I think right now the 330's top gear is 1:1. With a six, you have less of a compromise. *


I'm reasonably happy with the gearing of the 5sp in my wagon, with 5th at 1:1, but having an overdrive sixth would be nice.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

The HACK said:


> *Not likely.
> 
> The 6 speed is coming out in March of 2003. The E46 replacement is due out in September 2004. *


As recently as this month, Roundel states that the E90 will debut in 2006. That's probably the model year, so I guess their prediction/information points to September 2005.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

PhilH said:


> *
> As recently as this month, Roundel states that the E90 will debut in 2006. That's probably the model year, so I guess their prediction/information points to September 2005. *


You're right, the E46 came out as a '99 model in September of '98. Assuming the 7 year product cycle it SHOULD be September of 2005 as a 2006 model.

Still, we're so far into the production cycle it's not likely BMW will make back their cost for certification. It would certainly be a lot cheaper if BMW just introduced the 6 speed with the E90.

It's still BMW's perogative, and I think if we start to see 3 series sale drop significantly to the competition BMW may sack up and bring the 6 speed out sooner. Again, it's unlikely though.


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## MikeW (Dec 20, 2001)

Dan,

On two subjects:

Even if they keep the first five gears the same ratio and add a overdrive sixth, it's an improvement. Acceleration would be the same, but highway crusing would be more efficient.

As far as the new platform intro's go, I don't think that would dissuade BMW from moving to a six speed gearbox for the E46. Remember, they tend to introduce the new platform, with the powertrain from the old platform, then a year or two later, introduce a new powertrain. If they are planning to introduce the new platform in '05, they would probably want to get a new powertrain out in the '03-'04 (calender year) timeframe.

BMW now has some serious competition, especially in the powertrain department, and needs to address it. I really can't see them waiting to '06+ to do it, and they don't tend to do it with the plaform release. This means they'll probably do it earlier. With the new S4 going V8, the M3 will likely have to go V8 also. That leaves room for the main line E46s to get more engine. Maybe a 3.2L Valvetronic I6 with the 6-speed manual and/or SMG for MY '04?


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

The 6MT will only come along if BMW feels it needs a lower-end image product aside from the M3. MT sales are low enough as it is that it will be hard to justify the costs, as HACK said, of recerting a whole new tranny.

And the rear end ratio of the 330 makes a overdrive 6th unnecessary. MY car with the super short diff, though, could use it. 330s can reach their topspeed with RPMs to spare, but mine is riding the revlimiter at ~130MPH.

Also, if you look at the pics of the Z4 shifter carriers that Ron Stygar posted recently, the 2.5 5MT carrier looks a lot like the E46 one but the 3.0 6MT one looks completely different (sorta a cross between the normal E46 one and the xi) so its probably not a simple matter of dropping in the 6MT.


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## rcc (Jul 21, 2002)

The 6-speed would be really nice on the 330i for improving fuel economy during sustained high-speed cruising. With the 5 speed, you don't get 29 mpg at 80-85 mph. You're not going to get that with a 6-speed but it would be nice to have a gear that would let you cruise at that speed at around 2000 rpm instead of around 3500 rpm.

- Ray


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## CD-55 (Dec 19, 2001)

The direct 1:1 ratio of 5th gear is very efficient, look at an exploded view of a transmission and you will see that 1:1 ratios are kind of just go straight through. If the 330 had and overdrive (6th) gear there would be more friction in the transmission, which may not yield a net reduction of miles per gallon at USA driving speeds.


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

If the competition comes up with a car with 7 gears, does that mean that we should demand 7 gears in our Bimmers as well? You don't need a sixth gear in the E46. You need less weight.


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## visor (Sep 7, 2002)

CD-55 said:


> *The direct 1:1 ratio of 5th gear is very efficient, look at an exploded view of a transmission and you will see that 1:1 ratios are kind of just go straight through.*


CD-55 or anyone, just wondering if you happen to know of a link for the exploded view of the E46 transmission, because I've also read that the direct ratio 5th gear is super efficient (instead of another rotating gear to convert to a lower ratio ie. overdrive, I'd imagine). It would help me visualize it better... Thanks!


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

visor said:


> *
> 
> CD-55 or anyone, just wondering if you happen to know of a link for the exploded view of the E46 transmission, because I've also read that the direct ratio 5th gear is super efficient (instead of another rotating gear to convert to a lower ratio ie. overdrive, I'd imagine). It would help me visualize it better... Thanks!  *


I don't know exactly which model ZF the 330 uses, but 325s use the Getrag 220, if that helps in finding some info.


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## mwette (Sep 16, 2002)

MikeW said:


> *They found a six speed manual for the three liter in the Z4. It's basically the same engine as the 330. Do you think it will replace the five speed manual? Most of the 330 competition has six cog manuals. *


I remember reading a comparison of BMW 330Ci vs Infiniti G35 coupe 6-speed. The speed range versus gear for the two cars was the same; the 6th gear on the G35 just upped it's top speed.


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## toshweir27 (Jan 4, 2002)

Yea, why the hell is BMW so late? Chevy did it in 1991!

The 5-spd in the 3 series works fine. The E90 will have one so just wait. In the meantime enjoy what you have compared to all the rest.:thumbup:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

toshweir27 said:


> *Yea, why the hell is BMW so late? Chevy did it in 1991!
> *


Don't you mean 1989?


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)

its because the Z4 is a roadster it gets that 6sp us enthusiasts always want. The point of a 3-series is that of a highly different purpose, therefor I really do not believe BMW will waste a ton of money to mate a 6sp into the car just for people like us. Demographics show, we are a very few margin in BMW sales, so unless you sleep with the guy who decides these things, looks like steptronic and SMG is all that is left for the future 3er

just wanted to say hi  coming from other boards, found this one to be the most informative of all.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *its because the Z4 is a roadster it gets that 6sp us enthusiasts always want. *


Enthusiasts always want a 6 speed?


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)

so if offered a 6sp...youd actually take a 5sp over that? im sure most drivers would love to have another ratio to tap on.


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## Adrian 330Ci'01 (Apr 16, 2002)

andy323ci said:


> *so if offered a 6sp...youd actually take a 5sp over that? im sure most drivers would love to have another ratio to tap on. *


They have an excellent 5 speed. Also, the 3er gets great fuel economy as it is.

Another benefit of the direct drive 5th is that I never need to downshift when cruising on the highway, there is always lots of power there (I will drop a gear to get a real rush!).

Finally, I would rather BMW use the space and weight available to create a robust, reliable 5 speed than trying to cram in a 6 for no good reason except that everyone else is doing it. With new features, usually comes the weight...

To other's comments above. I don't think the 3er is behind the competition yet in any perceivable way IMHO. If you focus on stats alone maybe, but they don't say much... I have yet to drive anything short of a Porche that makes me think about replacing the 330...


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## chazzy (Apr 2, 2002)

The HACK said:


> *\It does not make any sense to replace the transmission now to a 6 speed since it cost BMW $100,000,000.00 to certify each transmission. That's why the 330i still uses the ZF unit from the 328i.*


Are you sure about that figure? $100M is a lot of money for government approval process. I seem to recall a figure of $1M for every engine-transmission combination in the US, but I can't cite that figure.


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)

Adrian 330Ci'01 said:


> *
> To other's comments above. I don't think the 3er is behind the competition yet in any perceivable way IMHO. If you focus on stats alone maybe, but they don't say much... I have yet to drive anything short of a Porche that makes me think about replacing the 330... *


i think bmw has alot of catching up to do as of now. with cars such as the infiniti g35s, acuras, even entry level hondas offering more hp to the crank, the average consumer is definitely going to be turning their cheeks away from bimmer. Of course bmw has those customers that dont care for excellent engineering, drivetrain, comforts, and buy bmw because the label says bmw. however to the more cautious buyer, bmw isnt looking too hot these days. Now loyalty aside, i am going to admit that yea my 323ci isnt keeping up with maybe cars on the road these days. I dominate most cars with excellent sport suspension, seating, and creature comforts, but when it comes to pen and paper ehh..i really cant boast.


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *so if offered a 6sp...youd actually take a 5sp over that? im sure most drivers would love to have another ratio to tap on. *


if it's the standard 5 plus an overdrive, honestly i wouldn't care either way. for the driving i do, i don't have any real need or desire for overdrive. i wouldn't reject it if it was the only option, but i wouldn't miss it and i definitely wouldn't "love to have another".


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *i think bmw has alot of catching up to do as of now. with cars such as the infiniti g35s, acuras, even entry level hondas offering more hp to the crank, the average consumer is definitely going to be turning their cheeks away from bimmer. *


now HP is a different story. obviously there's more to a bmw than power, and i think my opinion on that is exemplified in the cars [and motorcycles] i drive. but a little more power is always good.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *i think bmw has alot of catching up to do as of now. with cars such as the infiniti g35s, acuras, even entry level hondas offering more hp to the crank, the average consumer is definitely going to be turning their cheeks away from bimmer. *


Marketing people love consumers like you.

"Wow 260 HP!!!" (circus music plays in the background)










If the 330 is faster and gets better mileage, then what does that extra HP buy you? Bragging rights?


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *so if offered a 6sp...youd actually take a 5sp over that? im sure most drivers would love to have another ratio to tap on. *


Nope. Another gear means more wear on the clutch (more shifting), more wear on the transmission (more shifting), more wear on the drivetrain (more shifting)...well, you get the picture.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Kaz said:


> *
> 
> I don't know exactly which model ZF the 330 uses, but 325s use the Getrag 220, if that helps in finding some info. *


Either S5-31 (310Nm) or S5-39 (390Nm).


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## MikeW (Dec 20, 2001)

ff said:


> *
> 
> Nope. Another gear means more wear on the clutch (more shifting), more wear on the transmission (more shifting), more wear on the drivetrain (more shifting)...well, you get the picture. *


It sounds like you'd be happier with three on the tree.

Given the fact that six speeds sprouting up all over the place, including in a BMW using the same engines as the E46, I really doubt there are any reliability or packaging issues. That leaves performance and convenience. While there is a point of diminishing returns for the number of ratios, six isn't past that point. What are bikes (human powered) coming with now, 18 ratios? More? I've lost track.


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## 328bimma (Apr 9, 2002)

i am waiting for the E46 to update its suspension so i can get one. since the 7er already has a 6speed auto, i don't see why 3er won't be following its footsteps. taller final drive ratio will give much better crusing RPM. hence better fuel economy.

Jerry


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)

ff said:


> *
> 
> Marketing people love consumers like you.
> 
> ...


 of course it gives me bragging rights! not to say i do not appreciate my vehicle, i love it for what it is. I truely understand that bmw isnt alll about hp and speed, that is what the Motorsports division is for. For the marketing people, they really have two things to lean on, loyal customers like yourselves and those that want bmw for the name. This recent revelation came to me when drivingmy friends newly aquired G35 coupe, an awesome with performance, suspension, and braking power to gloat. I paid almost the same for my 323ci new as I would have this car. Now to the new car consumer I wonder which he/she is going to pick.

Also I am not that consumer you presumably pick on me to be. I understand there is much more the crank hp, and because bmw has such awesome drivetrain engineering the parasitic loss is almost not there.

Advertently I think I may have stepped into the wrong crownd. Is it always the norm for people to judge people by their criticism of BMW in here?


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

328bimma said:


> *i am waiting for the E46 to update its suspension so i can get one. since the 7er already has a 6speed auto, i don't see why 3er won't be following its footsteps. taller final drive ratio will give much better crusing RPM. hence better fuel economy.
> 
> Jerry *


Better cruising RPM is very subjective. Many people like the cruising RPM's where they're at, because it allows the engine to roam at engine speeds that are closer to the torque peak. This means that acceleration is much more responsive, and without having to switch gears. If I can have this, and 30 MPG to boot, I just don't see any reason to change it. Honestly, no reason at all.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> * of course it gives me bragging rights! not to say i do not appreciate my vehicle, i love it for what it is. I truely understand that bmw isnt alll about hp and speed, that is what the Motorsports division is for. For the marketing people, they really have two things to lean on, loyal customers like yourselves and those that want bmw for the name. This recent revelation came to me when drivingmy friends newly aquired G35 coupe, an awesome with performance, suspension, and braking power to gloat. I paid almost the same for my 323ci new as I would have this car. Now to the new car consumer I wonder which he/she is going to pick.*


If we're talking about price comparisons, then this is a different story. The Japanese imports offer a lot more for your money than BMW does. That's a given. But, the Japanese still can't match the accelerstion of the 330, and they certainly don't have the same soul. I couldn't look past this when chose the 330 last year. It was worth the extra $$ to buy BMW.


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## CD-55 (Dec 19, 2001)

328bimma said:


> *i am waiting for the E46 to update its suspension so i can get one. since the 7er already has a 6speed auto, i don't see why 3er won't be following its footsteps. taller final drive ratio will give much better crusing RPM. hence better fuel economy.
> 
> Jerry *


In other words at highway speeds you perceive that due to the indicated RPM that the vehicle is not running as efficient as it would at a lower RPM? It is that line of thinking has lead to many of the comments on this thread, but no one has any real data to support that theory with this specific combination of equipment.

Who has measured that our combination of:
4-chassis styles (i, Ci, Cic, & iT) 
2-manual transmissions (Getrag & ZF)
4-engine variations
2-drivetrain options (RWD & AWD)
is operating less efficiently that they would if it included a theoretical new transmission or transmissions with a 6th gear? Exactly what speeds over what incline grades would the 6-speed be more efficient? Is it still more efficient at high altitude or with the vehicle heavily loaded?

The higher 6th gear would not accelerate as fast as the current 5th gear. How much slower would it be? Would that be satisfactory or would shifting down to 5th become annoying? Would the extra shifting from winding up and down 6 gears be annoying compared to 5 gears?


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)

ff said:


> *
> 
> If we're talking about price comparisons, then this is a different story. The Japanese imports offer a lot more for your money than BMW does. That's a given. But, the Japanese still can't match the accelerstion of the 330, and they certainly don't have the same soul. I couldn't look past this when chose the 330 last year. It was worth the extra $$ to buy BMW. *


of course thats your opinion and its subjective but i still wholy respect that. the bmw is a bmw, and nothing else will substitute it and nothing has the soul nor the heritage to match its presence. typical of the japanese imports are they lose so much torque and have such whiny acceleration, whereas the 330 has the strongest linear na pull ive felt. however there is not where to go but up. the japanese being as adeptive as they are might jsut start focusing on drive train engineering and patent some way to get crank power straight to the wheels. All im saying is BMW should be more cautious, since they are the benchmark car manufacturers, there are nothing but haters.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *...snip... there are nothing but haters. *


Is "haters" the new word for "people who does not agree with me?"


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *
> 
> Is "haters" the new word for "people who does not agree with me?" *


I'm surprised you could even understand any of that. There's one other person (don't remember who offhand) whose posts just run on and I don't even bother reading em.

People, if you don't want others thinking you're some dumbass, quit typing like one.


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *Advertently I think I may have stepped into the wrong crownd. Is it always the norm for people to judge people by their criticism of BMW in here? *


wait a minute now, don't take this kinda stuff personally. there are discussions of differing opinions on all boards. at least they didn't start calling you names... yet. 

many of the people on this board have been on the scene for a long time. with that comes a good pool of knowledge, as well as strong opinions and little patience to express them. you'll get used to it... or not.


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

ride365 said:


> *at least they didn't start calling you names... yet.
> *





Kaz said:


> *People, if you don't want others thinking you're some dumbass, quit typing like one. *


oops, i spoke too soon. 

.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

ride365 said:


> *
> 
> oops, i spoke too soon.
> 
> . *


Hey, just calling 'em like I see 'em.

I'm not one to waste my time on someone who looks like they won't understand a word I'm saying to begin with. :dunno:


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

ride365 said:


> *
> 
> oops, i spoke too soon.
> 
> . *


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Dumbass.

j/k


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *
> 
> Wrong. The 6 speed in ALL the BMWs have the same first 5 ratio as their 5 speed counterparts with 5th gear being a direct, 1:1 ratio (except for the E65), and the 6th gear being an overdrive. You will NOT see a closer ratio first 5 gears regardless because to move the first few gears closer means you'll have to make a shift to 3rd to get to 60mph, and you end up with about +.2-.5 second performance DECREASE in the one number EVERYONE looks at.
> 
> The M3, M5, 540i, Z4 3.0 ALL have 1:1 5th gear. *


What's the final drive ratio on the Z4? One thing constraining FDs on BMWs is the direct drive 5th; go much past 3.25, and the engine revs at cruising speeds just gets obnoxious. Putting in a 6th gear allows you to bump the FD up (the M3 went from 3.2X to 3.46 or 64 when it got a six speed), which lowers the effective gear ratios of the first five gears, and thus increases acceleration.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

JST said:


> *
> 
> What's the final drive ratio on the Z4? One thing constraining FDs on BMWs is the direct drive 5th; go much past 3.25, and the engine revs at cruising speeds just gets obnoxious. Putting in a 6th gear allows you to bump the FD up (the M3 went from 3.2X to 3.46 or 64 when it got a six speed), which lowers the effective gear ratios of the first five gears, and thus increases acceleration. *


I don't know what other models have/had this setup, but from SOP 03/01, the FD on MT 2wd Tourings got changed from 3.15:1 to 3.46:1 (the AT's ratio) with no other changes. Sure, the car launches like a mofo, but t really makes the overall ratios a bit awkward, since everything now is a bit too short. I start in 2nd if the car has any forward movement at all (like in traffic) and often make right turns in 3rd. It also means at freeway speeds (70-80mph) the motor is ticking over like a Honda.

The car is really responsive in that in any given condition, the engine tends to be in a fatter part of the powerband, but it could stand to be a little more relaxed most of the time. I'd bet some of the track and auto-x buffs would kill for a setup like this. But as a daily driver, I think I would be happier with the 5MT as it is, and the FD set back to 3.15.

Now, people with 330s and their 2.93:1 FDs should have NO reason to want a OD 6th.

Aside from my little corner of gearing weirdness, I see no reason for BMW to start dropping 6MTs in E46s. The engines have a wide enough powerband to make narrowing the box ratios unnecessary, and as long as the rear end is reasonable, there's always perfect gearing for most any task. I'm with JST; I'd like to see all the ratios in the Z4's 6MT box to see what they did.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

andy323ci said:


> of course it gives me bragging rights!


In this case, there's a really simple response to "my car has more horsepower", it's "oh, yeah? well then why is my car faster?".



> ...This recent revelation came to me when drivingmy friends newly aquired G35 coupe, an awesome with performance, suspension, and braking power to gloat.
> 
> ...the japanese being as adeptive as they are might jsut start focusing on drive train engineering...
> 
> Advertently I think I may have stepped into the wrong crownd


:dunno:


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## rcc (Jul 21, 2002)

With respect to crusing rpms, mileage and torque peaks.

On a 2003 330i, if you cruise in 5th gear around the torque peak at 3500 rpm, you're doing around 80-85 mph or so and your mileage is down around 20 mpg or so. Ask me how I know  .

From what I can tell, according to the instantaneous mileage guage on the dash, the engine is much more fuel-efficient at 2000 rpm than it is at 3500 rpm.

For responsiveness, >3500 rpm is where it's at. For fuel efficiency, it's nice to have the engine turning over less, say 2000-2500 rpm.

So I would really like to have a high-speed cruising gear as a 6th speed for those long runs.

Maybe the next car  .

- Ray


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

rcc said:


> *With respect to crusing rpms, mileage and torque peaks.
> 
> On a 2003 330i, if you cruise in 5th gear around the torque peak at 3500 rpm, you're doing around 80-85 mph or so and your mileage is down around 20 mpg or so. Ask me how I know  .
> 
> ...


Cruising at 80-85MPH puts me at about 4K in fifth... Long distance cruising at these speeds is the only time I've ever gotten near 30MPG.

IMHO, the instantaneous gauge is pretty useless.  I also seriously doubt that the engine would be more efficient at 2000RPMs at 80-85MPH. You'd REALLY have to push on the gas pedal to get it moving, and the engine would be working really hard at a rev where it doesn't make much power.

I've been using fifth gear a lot less lately, and my average fuel efficiency has gone UP.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

rcc said:


> *
> From what I can tell, according to the instantaneous mileage guage on the dash, the engine is much more fuel-efficient at 2000 rpm than it is at 3500 rpm.
> *


Um, this is why C5 Vettes are EPA rated at something like 25mph hwy. They tick over like 1500rpm in 6th (5 and 6 are OD on that car, I think). If the engine isn't bogged down, obviously the slower it turns the less gas its going to use.

But how far are you gonna go? Do you want the car geared so its at 600RPM in 9th gear @75mph? Since when did most Americans care about fuel economy anyhow? :dunno:


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## CD-55 (Dec 19, 2001)

rcc said:


> *With respect to crusing rpms, mileage and torque peaks.
> 
> On a 2003 330i, if you cruise in 5th gear around the torque peak at 3500 rpm, you're doing around 80-85 mph or so and your mileage is down around 20 mpg or so. Ask me how I know  .
> *


Ray, it sounds like you have a dud. At 80 MPH, both of my 330s have always made 30 MPG or better.


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## SONET (Mar 1, 2002)

rcc said:


> *With respect to crusing rpms, mileage and torque peaks.
> 
> On a 2003 330i, if you cruise in 5th gear around the torque peak at 3500 rpm, you're doing around 80-85 mph or so and your mileage is down around 20 mpg or so. Ask me how I know  .
> *


Hmm that's odd... on the longer trips I have been on while running the A/C doing 85-90 in my 2002 330Ci I average above 29MPG, and that is includes going over the Grapevine.

Lower RPM doesn't always equate to better MPG. Cars have an optimum RPM range where they are the most efficient (and there are many variables to this), this range being different for every motor. Otherwise every car with enough power would have a super-overdrive gear that would bring the motor to 700RPM at 65MPH (for 100MPG, of course!).

--SONET


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

SONET said:


> *
> Lower RPM doesn't always equate to better MPG. Cars have an optimum RPM range where they are the most efficient (and there are many variables to this), this range being different for every motor. Otherwise every car with enough power would have a super-overdrive gear that would bring the motor to 700RPM at 65MPH (for 100MPG, of course!).
> 
> --SONET *


My sentiments, exactly. If the 330 engine has an easier time turning the gears at 2700 RPM in 5th (than it does at, say, 2300 in 6th), it stands to reason that the average driver will get better mileage in 5th. 
The lower the RPM's, the more an engine has to grunt. The more an engine needs to grunt, the more gas that needs to be dumped into the cylinders to get acceleration.


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> * of course it gives me bragging rights! not to say i do not appreciate my vehicle, i love it for what it is. I truely understand that bmw isnt alll about hp and speed, that is what the Motorsports division is for. For the marketing people, they really have two things to lean on, loyal customers like yourselves and those that want bmw for the name. This recent revelation came to me when drivingmy friends newly aquired G35 coupe, an awesome with performance, suspension, and braking power to gloat. I paid almost the same for my 323ci new as I would have this car. Now to the new car consumer I wonder which he/she is going to pick.
> 
> Also I am not that consumer you presumably pick on me to be. I understand there is much more the crank hp, and because bmw has such awesome drivetrain engineering the parasitic loss is almost not there.
> 
> Advertently I think I may have stepped into the wrong crownd. Is it always the norm for people to judge people by their criticism of BMW in here? *


Up to this point, you still had me. After reading this post, I have only one thing to say, and some one else said it far better than I could.



> Dude, why don't you try typing in English instead of stupid?
> -- Mojo-jojo ([email protected])


I'm more than willing to help people on these boards out, but once they prove that they are stupid and have no plans of changing that, all bets are off.

Oh yeah, add me to the list of people that gets ~30 MPG @ 80 mph in 5th with a '01 330Ci.


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)

oh jesus christ..my first post and already nothing i say is respected..way to respect an opinion.. gg assholes (there you go my personal attack.)


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *oh jesus christ..my first post and already nothing i say is respected..way to respect an opinion.. gg assholes (there you go my personal attack.) *


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)




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## 328bimma (Apr 9, 2002)

acutally... 1 extra gear DOES help... i know since on my 328 (4 speed auto) and the M3 (5 speed auto) both have the same city milage consumption, and the M3 has a better highway milage. maybe 5 speed auto is enough? i don't know... but i had the idea of a 5 gear will give me a better fuel milage.

Jerry


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## visor (Sep 7, 2002)

Hey andy, just a bit of friendly advice. 

We're usually a pretty civil bunch here at the Fest (as opposed to the bimmer.org). But occasionally there are a few of us who have pseudo-dyslexia (hence, find it difficult to read someone's typing off in rambling sentences without proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation such as yourself), so you should correct those if you want to be taken seriously... otherwise you'll just be considered as noise in the bandwidth.


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## andy323ci (Nov 16, 2002)

visor said:


> *Hey andy, just a bit of friendly advice.
> 
> We're usually a pretty civil bunch here at the Fest (as opposed to the bimmer.org). But occasionally there are a few of us who have pseudo-dyslexia (hence, find it difficult to read someone's typing off in rambling sentences without proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation such as yourself), so you should correct those if you want to be taken seriously... otherwise you'll just be considered as noise in the bandwidth. *


thanks visor for your sound advice. next time i shall be more cautious with my grammar, its my second language.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

328bimma said:


> *acutally... 1 extra gear DOES help... i know since on my 328 (4 speed auto) and the M3 (5 speed auto) both have the same city milage consumption, and the M3 has a better highway milage. maybe 5 speed auto is enough? i don't know... but i had the idea of a 5 gear will give me a better fuel milage.
> 
> Jerry *


:tsk: Is that an apples-to-apples comparison? Nope.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

328bimma said:


> *acutally... 1 extra gear DOES help... i know since on my 328 (4 speed auto) and the M3 (5 speed auto) both have the same city milage consumption, and the M3 has a better highway milage. maybe 5 speed auto is enough? i don't know... but i had the idea of a 5 gear will give me a better fuel milage.
> 
> Jerry *


I'm not sure what the gear ratios are on those cars... But from my experience with an auto 328 loaner, the 4th gear was an overdrive. Differences in fuel efficiency could come from all sorts of things... Like the fact that you don't have to mash the pedal nearly as much in the M3.

Mind you, I'd like an extra gear, so long as the rest of the gears become LOWER.


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

andy323ci said:


> *oh jesus christ..my first post and already nothing i say is respected..way to respect an opinion.. gg assholes (there you go my personal attack.) *


Your main problem, IMO, is that you seem oblivious to what others are saying. There are some very knowledgeable people on this board. You'd do well to take some time and read some of the older posts and figure out who knows their stuff and then listen to what they have to say. Ignoring people that the rest of us know are correct, or at least very well informed, is a good way to get labled an idiot.

As far as the typing goes, sorry about that. With a location of Philly and a nick of andy it's not obvious that english is your second language.

I still don't think that slapping an overdrive onto the curent 5sp to get a 6sp is needed. I wouldn't mind a FDR over 3 though.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

328bimma said:


> *acutally... 1 extra gear DOES help... i know since on my 328 (4 speed auto) and the M3 (5 speed auto) both have the same city milage consumption, and the M3 has a better highway milage. maybe 5 speed auto is enough? i don't know... but i had the idea of a 5 gear will give me a better fuel milage.
> 
> Jerry *


What year is the 328? I don't remember any of the E36 328's coming with a 4 speed automatic...They've always been 5 speed, no?

Anyone care to shed some light?


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *Anyone care to shed some light? *


Yep, produced between 95-99 and all had ZF 5 Speed


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> *
> 
> Yep, produced between 95-99 and all had ZF 5 Speed *


I don't think so.

I had a 328 auto loaner for a week or so. D-3-2-1. It was one of the worst automatics I have ever driven.  Maybe the fifth speed was reverse?


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> I had a 328 auto loaner for a week or so. D-3-2-1. It was one of the worst automatics I have ever driven.  Maybe the fifth speed was reverse? *


Sorry, I should've written ' the ones for the german market'.

EDIT: My big blue book doesn't mention of a 4 speed automatic transmission.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*more likely need a 6 speed in 325xi's....*

or any of the xi's for that matter.

they all have higher ratio rear ends to make up for the weight gain.

since the 330 has a 2.93:1 rear end, it doesn't necessarily need the 6th gear for fuel economy.

but anyting 3.23:1 or higher, for instance, with a 1:1 5th gear, would be nice to have that extra cog for a less nervous engine on highway trips.

just my 2 cents.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: more likely need a 6 speed in 325xi's....*



pdz said:


> *or any of the xi's for that matter.
> 
> they all have higher ratio rear ends to make up for the weight gain.
> 
> ...


I want a six speed and a 3.93-4.10 FD. I LOVE cruising at 4K RPMs.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: more likely need a 6 speed in 325xi's....*



Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *
> 
> I want a six speed and a 3.93-4.10 FD. I LOVE cruising at 4K RPMs. *


So, you don't care about top end?

You would have a gear limited top speed of 120 or so :dunno:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: more likely need a 6 speed in 325xi's....*



nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> So, you don't care about top end?
> 
> You would have a gear limited top speed of 120 or so :dunno: *


Assuming a .83 6th gear and a 3.93 FD, I'd be able to hit 145 at 6350. 
4K in 6th would give a crusing speed just over 90.

Sure doesn't seem like a problem to me!


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: more likely need a 6 speed in 325xi's....*



Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *
> 
> Assuming a .83 6th gear and a 3.93 FD, I'd be able to hit 145 at 6350.
> 4K in 6th would give a crusing speed just over 90.
> ...


Well, I was assuming cruising speed of a more typical 75-80. At 4K there, you would be limited to 'round 120 top end..

What about those of us that want to exceed 150? :dunno:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Those of you who want to exceed 150 in a stockish E46 are insane. 
It's not like you can realistically do that on the track... And it's not like you can do that on more than a couple of roads.

Edit: And to cruise at 4K at 75-80, with a 3.93, you'd just downshift to 5th.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *Those of you who want to exceed 150 in a stockish E46 are insane.
> It's not like you can realistically do that on the track... And it's not like you can do that on more than a couple of roads.
> 
> Edit: And to cruise at 4K at 75-80, with a 3.93, you'd just downshift to 5th.  *


What about those of us that want (and have) exceeded 185 in a stockish E39?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> What about those of us that want (and have) exceeded 185 in a stockish E39?  *


Just as insane, if not more so.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *
> 
> Just as insane, if not more so. *


I thought you would say so


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> I thought you would say so  *


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> What about those of us that want (and have) exceeded 185 in a stockish E39?  *


What does that have to do with the top end of an E46? :dunno:


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> I had a 328 auto loaner for a week or so. D-3-2-1. It was one of the worst automatics I have ever driven.  Maybe the fifth speed was reverse? *


If I recall correctly, the none step, automatic E46 5 speeds have the same pattern. D-3-2-1, when you shift from 3-D "manually" you get put into 4th gear and will/can only shift into 5th by the computer.

Doesn't mean that tranny has only 4 gears.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *
> 
> If I recall correctly, the none step, automatic E46 5 speeds have the same pattern. D-3-2-1, when you shift from 3-D "manually" you get put into 4th gear and will/can only shift into 5th by the computer.
> 
> Doesn't mean that tranny has only 4 gears. *


That I know...
I felt for a fifth gear, but it never seemed like it had one.  Of course, that may have simply been because I was beating the shit out of that car. (Slushiest slushbox, I've ever driven.)


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## MikeW (Dec 20, 2001)

Bumping back to top...

For those who doubted, the below is stole from a thread on a new performance package on Jon's forum:



> Well here's the text of the press release, as posted on the BMW NA web site:
> 
> BMW Introduces the 330i Performance Package To Debut at the Los Angeles International Auto Show
> The quintessential sport sedan once again raises the performance bar
> ...


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

:yikes: 

throw in a better fuel map, throw out the CDV, and you throw my entire financial outlook into a spin.

well, if i had a financial outlook.


this deserves a new thread btw.


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## SONET (Mar 1, 2002)

ride365 said:


> ...this deserves a new thread btw. [/B]


I second that. :thumbup:

--SONET


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## DW (Oct 31, 2002)

andy323ci said:


> *so if offered a 6sp...youd actually take a 5sp over that? im sure most drivers would love to have another ratio to tap on. *


The gearing of the transmission really matters more than the number of gears.

My wife has a 6 speed MB. I'd rather have a BMW 5 speed.

It sounds like the BMW 6 speed is just the 5 speed with a extra overdrive gear stuck on. I guess that's ok, but not really something an "enthusiast" would necessarily care about. I've never found BMW 5th gear to be too low, even for high speed cruising.

The MB 6 speed is more of an "enthusiast" box, I guess, in that they use it to make a closer ratio box. The problem is, they made first gear really low. A stump puller. Even for an "enthusiast" it makes for a lot of unnecessary shifting around town.

IMO, in a car with any significant torque (like a BMW), 6 speeds are really mostly for marketing. That is kind of evidenced by the Z4, where the big engine gets the 6 speed and the small engine gets the 5 speed! From a mechanical standpoint, that is backwards - it only makes sense from a marketing standpoint.


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## Adrian 330Ci'01 (Apr 16, 2002)

WHAT NO LSD?!?!? Ahhhhhh....


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Adrian 330Ci'01 said:


> *WHAT NO LSD?!?!? Ahhhhhh....  *


Probably has 255/35/18's (same as the Z4 3.0i SP) on the back. Traction really shouldn't be much of an issue to 99.5% of buyers.


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## Adrian 330Ci'01 (Apr 16, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> *Probably has 255/35/18's (same as the Z4 3.0i SP) on the back. Traction really shouldn't be much of an issue to 99.5% of buyers. *


I guess so... I have the 245 S-03's on the rear and I still (think) I would benefit from LSD. However, until I have it, I'll never know.

I find it strange that the guys at the car magazines never ***** about the lack of LSD. i.e. These guys know what they are doing and tend to drive the cars hard, yet they do not send this (via thier articles) as a recommendation for improvement... does this mean I will not notice any difference?


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*is this debate closed now?*

the 330 is, in fact, going to get a 6 speed transmission with tighter ratios between gears in the form of the "club sport package" or whatever it's called.

and while some would argue that the 6th cog is unnecessary, 6 speeds are an enthusiast car's friend. the 330, for example could easily dip into the mid 5 second range consistently to 60mph with a higher rear end, something like 3.15:1 or 3:23:1 but as it is, it is 2.93:1. you can have your cake and eat it too, by having a 3.23:1 rear end, phenomenal acceleration besting or equaling the e36m3, plus get 25mpg crusing at 90mph.

for reference, a 996 has 6 cogs, and the rear end is 3.44:1, and gets 25mpg cruising at 100mph on an extended run (as tested by CAR magazine recently).


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

I was going to point out that the Roundel article (I think Nate posted a link to a copy of it in the general forum) on the Z4 claimed that 6th gear was direct drive on the new transmission. But then I noticed that one of the side bars listed the ratio for the gears and it appears that 6th is a tacked on over drive with 5th the direct drive gear.


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## ed325i (Dec 20, 2001)

Does anyone know the ratio of the final drive (diff) on the 6 speed Z4 3.0 or the new 330i Club Sport? 3.15? 3.07?

Ed


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: is this debate closed now?*



pdz said:


> *the 330 is, in fact, going to get a 6 speed transmission with tighter ratios between gears in the form of the "club sport package" or whatever it's called.
> 
> and while some would argue that the 6th cog is unnecessary, 6 speeds are an enthusiast car's friend. the 330, for example could easily dip into the mid 5 second range consistently to 60mph with a higher rear end, something like 3.15:1 or 3:23:1 but as it is, it is 2.93:1. you can have your cake and eat it too, by having a 3.23:1 rear end, phenomenal acceleration besting or equaling the e36m3, plus get 25mpg crusing at 90mph.
> 
> for reference, a 996 has 6 cogs, and the rear end is 3.44:1, and gets 25mpg cruising at 100mph on an extended run (as tested by CAR magazine recently). *


It simply would not matter because the 6th drive is an overdrive. And no, the 330 is NOT getting a 6 speed, the 330i HP is. It will be a limited production package, and you can not simply choose "manual" on a 330 and get the 6 speed, you will need to buy a special 330i HP. BMW may even choose to give it a different chasis number and sell it at a small enough volume that they do not need to pay for certification, but in all my definitions, the 330 is still NOT getting a 6 speed.


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: is this debate closed now?*



The HACK said:


> *And no, the 330 is NOT getting a 6 speed, the 330i HP is.... but in all my definitions, the 330 is still NOT getting a 6 speed. *


like, wow. i like to rationalize as much as the next guy, but my skills pale in comparison.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: is this debate closed now?*



ride365 said:


> *like, wow. i like to rationalize as much as the next guy, but my skills pale in comparison.  *


Whatever.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*okay.*

you are truly right, in the tightest definition, HACK.

but to me, if i were to buy a 330 and ask, will it get the z4's 6speed? the answer is yes, because i could order the 330HP. to me, that's the answer.

there will, in fact, be a 330 with a 6 speed. it is a "package". not an entirely different car. therefore, according to my definition, it is "yes" to the original question.

semantics to be sure, but i think you see my point. it's as valid as yours. it has to do with as loose or tight you wish to define "330". chassis and drivetrain configuration? this isn't like the 330 with the "m3" package as that is truly an altogether different driveline (engine, rear diff, and tranny). this is a hotted up 330.

further, this isn't even as bifurcated as the X5 4.4 and the X5 4.6, where two different engines are involved. again, this is the same engine with a different intake manifold and a loud exhaust.


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