# Just drove ZHP back to back with M3/4, M3C



## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

This will be a quick review, as I'm just in the house for a minute. I'll post some pics later. 

SteveMD and his 500 mile-old ZHP met up with TD and I this morning so that we could ooh and aah over the new car, and get some back to back impressions against TD's M3/4. 

Cutting to the chase: The ZHP is a DAMN impressive car. The problem areas that plagued the first 330s are mostly gone (or at least mitigated). Throttle delay is present, but not as severe as in the first 330s (and maybe not as bad as the E46 M3 in non-sport mode). Steering feel is excellent (though the furry wheel feels like something that should be in Shaft's car), with a nice weighting. It doesn't transmit the same road feel as the M3 (esp. mit Konis), but it feels like a BMW should. No apologies necessary--and, believe it or not, better than the current M3. 

Handling is solid. The ride is less harsh than a Koni E36 M3, and while there may be a touch more lean, you can also tell that the structure is stiffer. No squeaking, no flex--just thumpthump over bumps. Very nice. 

Acceleration? Well, the butt dyno says the M3/4 is still a bit faster, but it's also a whole lot louder, so maybe the butt dyno is wrong. Oddly, the exhaust in the ZHP is louder than that in the M3/4, but the M3's other engine noises are much more pronounced. The ZHP is not slow. Still, an even shorter differential would be appreciated.

Finally, the interior is pretty wicked (other than the wheel). I dig the cloth/alcantara combo, and I even like the black cube trim. 

I could own a car like this and be happy. Believe it or not, in moderate driving (because of the steering feel) it's more fun than the E46 M3. It's clearly the pick of the current litter. 

Even if the top doesn't go down.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

waiting for Mr. TD...


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

I agree that the E36 M3 _feels_ faster than an E46 330. However, tests by the magazines show differences that are only within maybe 0.2-0.4 seconds 0-60. I think the torque curve of the E36 M3 gives you more grunt which throws off the butt dyno a bit.

From the NJ BMW CCA autocross I attended today, I'd have to agree that the E36 M3 has a cooler (and louder) exhaust note to it too.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Driving the M3.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

And the 330:


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Handing over the keys:


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

Still has the warning sticker on the dash, eh?


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2003)

nate328Ci said:


> *waiting for Mr. TD... *


LOL.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2003)

And before we headed out...


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2003)

Okay...

First of all, JST and I discussed our opinions as we drove and I agree with everything he posted at the top of this thread.

In summary- We would both buy this car.

It is a slightly heavier, more isolated, more rigid and quieter E36 M3 sedan. And it is the first post-2001 model year BMW that I've driven that feels worthy of being a BMW.

We all (including Steve) agreed that the steering wheel, while the perfect size and thickness, really would be better off were it not so fuzzy. But all of the other ZHP elements are perfect. The shifter feels great, although without a back to back comparo with a non-ZHP 330i 6-spd, one cannot be sure if it has a shorter throw or not. And the steering weighting and overall feel was very similar to the E36 M3. :thumbup: 

We also sought to determine whether it exhibited the infamous DBW throttle delay. And, while the throttle is still not as immediate as the E36 M3 throttle response, it is about 90% of the way there (if you treat the '01 throttle response as"0" and the E36 M3 response as 100%). It also doesn't "blip" as well, but still it's SO much better than the '01s.

What we also noticed is that, while the exhaust is rather loud on the ZHP (which is good) you cannot hear the engine sing. The opposite is the case on the E36 M3 where you hear the engine wail but barely notice the exhaust. 

Steve noticed immediately on starting my car how much more vibration is felt in the cabin on the E36 M3 and indicated that was a good thing. On the ZHP, parked, you'd be tempted to re-start an already running engine (were it not for the exhaust drone) it's so still.

We agreed the suspension on the ZHP was a triumph. It is very controlled and communicative while still isolating the cabin from rude impacts and noises. For a hard-core enthusiast driving experience, the E36 M3 is much more visceral. But for most enthusiasts, the ZHP suspension is an ideal blend of comfort and feel. And for a daily driver, it's probably the perfect suspension.

For me personally, I'm beginning to geez, so the isolation offered by the ZHP suspension did hold some appeal. And the rest of the feel elements felt so very similar to those on my M3 that I definitely could see myself driving one.

Bottom line- If they made a wagon variant, it might motivate me to give up my E36. Driving them back to back, they (honestly) are more similar than they are dissimilar. Of course, I still prefer the E36. But the ZHP is, by far, the best E46 offered. Period.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TD said:


> *For me personally, I'm beginning to geez, so the isolation offered by the ZHP suspension did hold some appeal.*


:yikes:

Quick! Someone check to see if the earth just stopped spinning.

:angel:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> But the ZHP is, by far, the best E46 offered. Period. *


...that you've driven


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> *:yikes:
> 
> Quick! Someone check to see if the earth just stopped spinning.
> 
> :angel: *


:eeps: :lmao:

Hey, there is always hope for change 

j/k TD


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2003)

atyclb said:


> *...that you've driven
> 
> *


Even aside from the fact that the E46 M3 has two few doors, I still will tell you that I don't think I'd like it. From the Honda sounding exhaust to the jittery throttle response to the light steering and porky weight, I really doubt it.

BTW, you pick this out of my review yet you ignore this line from JST- "Believe it or not, in moderate driving (because of the steering feel) it's more fun than the E46 M3. It's clearly the pick of the current litter. "


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *Even aside from the fact that the E46 M4 has two few doors, I still will tell you that I don't think I'd like it. From the Honda sounding exhaust to the jittery throttle response to the light steering and porky weight, I really doubt it.
> *


What's an M4? :dunno:

And, how can you confirm any of your allegations :dunno:

Honda exhaust? :dunno:


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2003)

nate328Ci said:


> *What's an M4? :dunno:
> 
> And, how can you confirm any of your allegations :dunno:
> 
> Honda exhaust? :dunno: *


M4 - obvious typo

Honda exhaust - Heard them with my own ears many times. Piss poor exhaust note

Steering weight, throttle response - From reviews from objective sources not defensive owners

And anyone past the age of 2 can count high enough to know that the E46 M3 only has 2 doors.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

About the fuzzy steering wheel...You may not appreciate it now, but if you're on the track with driving gloves, you'll love how the alcantara wheel just STICKS to your hands like glue. I've had problems with sweaty palms at the track, but with a regular driving glove the leather just simply does not stick to my hand too well.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *Even aside from the fact that the E46 M3 has two few doors, I still will tell you that I don't think I'd like it. From the Honda sounding exhaust to the jittery throttle response to the light steering and porky weight, I really doubt it.
> 
> BTW, you pick this out of my review yet you ignore this line from JST- "Believe it or not, in moderate driving (because of the steering feel) it's more fun than the E46 M3. It's clearly the pick of the current litter. " *


you expected a reponse, JST didn't.

I obliged.

For anyone to say that a 330i ZHP is far and away better than an E46 M3 is just pure trolling and/or blindness and/or ????


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> Honda exhaust - Heard them with my own ears many times. Piss poor exhaust note
> *


It doesn't sound like any honda that I have heard :dunno:

I actually like the chainsaw engine. Sounds really nice as a corner worker with one screaming by...


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> *
> For anyone to say that a 330i ZHP is far and away better than an E46 M3 is just pure trolling and/or blindness and/or ???? *


Have you driven both?

I have.

The ZHP has better steering. The handling, at non-insane speeds, is similar. The ZHP may ride slightly better, though there was some time between my having driven the two. The ZHP has two extra doors. The interior in the ZHP is much nicer; the M3 seats feel flat and unsupportive in comparison to the well-executed alcantara/cloth. The ZHP costs substantially less. The ZHP has a spare tire.

On the plus column for the ///M car, the M3 is faster, but its extra performance is really most pertinent at speeds above 75 or so mph, at which point you are *already* committing "reckless driving" in Virginia. The M3 has an "M" badge.

As I said above, the ZHP is (IMHO) the obvious choice for someone who wants a BMW to drive daily, and isn't looking for track-day perfection or bragging rights re: number of throttle bodies. When cost is factored into the equation, it's the best car BMW makes.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

TD - NOW DO YOU BELIEVE ME ? ? ? ? 

LOL I am loving your review . . . I TOLD YOU about the DBW and the revised steering and you never beleived me . . . or as you said "I don't buy it'

I told you so, I told you so, I told you so :rofl: :rofl:

This made MY DAY !!!! Thanks  :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

JST said:


> *Have you driven both?
> 
> I have.
> 
> *


nope.

I don't remember ever commenting on the 330i ZHP, as I have never driven one.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2003)

atyclb said:


> *you expected a reponse, JST didn't.
> 
> I obliged.
> 
> For anyone to say that a 330i ZHP is far and away better than an E46 M3 is just pure trolling and/or blindness and/or ???? *


For the enthusiast who makes occasional yet infrequent visits to the track, the ZHP is the ideal car. I could see how the extra top end on the E46 M3 would be put to full use by hard-core track junkies (like some of the E46 M3 owners who have recently migrated over to the Fest). But even you have never once tracked your M3. And you have also never driven either car referenced primarily in this thread, the ZHP or the E36 M3.

For real world driving, I am quite confident that I would MUCH rather drive the ZHP than the E46 M3.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *For the enthusiast who makes occasional yet infrequent visits to the track, the ZHP is the ideal car. I could see how the extra top end on the E46 M3 would be put to full use by hard-core track junkies (like some of the E46 M3 owners who have recently migrated over to the Fest). But even you have never once tracked your M3. And you have also never driven either car referenced primarily in this thread, the ZHP or the E36 M3.
> 
> For real world driving, I am quite confident that I would MUCH rather drive the ZHP than the E46 M3. *


Sounds like you are turning into a C&D old man 

Speaking of atyclb and his driving, why doesn't he ever go out to TWS?  :dunno:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *For the enthusiast who makes occasional yet infrequent visits to the track, the ZHP is the ideal car. I could see how the extra top end on the E46 M3 would be put to full use by hard-core track junkies (like some of the E46 M3 owners who have recently migrated over to the Fest). But even you have never once tracked your M3. And you have also never driven either car referenced primarily in this thread, the ZHP or the E36 M3.
> 
> For real world driving, I am quite confident that I would MUCH rather drive the ZHP than the E46 M3. *


Even if I NEVER track my car, I am truly convinced that I would MUCH rather drive the E46 M3 than the E36 or ZHP.

Those others are not nearly trendy enough.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

atyclb said:


> *Even if I NEVER track my car, I am truly convinced that I would MUCH rather drive the E46 M3 than the E36 or ZHP.
> 
> Those others are not nearly trendy enough. *


 I saw that one coming from a mile away :rofl:


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2003)

AF330i said:


> *TD - NOW DO YOU BELIEVE ME ? ? ? ?
> 
> LOL I am loving your review . . . I TOLD YOU about the DBW and the revised steering and you never beleived me . . . or as you said "I don't buy it'
> 
> ...


Logically, I have to assume that non-ZHP '03 330s have the same steering and throttle response as the ZHP. And, yes, both are MUCH improved. Which only proves what a disaster the 2001s were. God that car was awful.

On one level, I was relieved that the ZHP was as good as it was. It means that there is a sliver of hope. May BMW continue to offer a second-tier sport package for those who find the regular SP to be way too pedestrian. IMO, they should offer this suspension on the 325 as well.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2003)

nate328Ci said:


> *Sounds like you are turning into a C&D old man
> 
> Speaking of atyclb and his driving, why doesn't he ever go out to TWS?  :dunno: *


No. I'm far from being THAT big of a geez.

I doubt that I would find the E46 M3 suspension to be harsh. Because it IS an E46 after all. Nothing about the E46 is harsh.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *Sounds like you are turning into a C&D old man
> 
> Speaking of atyclb and his driving, why doesn't he ever go out to TWS?  :dunno: *


It's in College Station---who wants to hang out with these guys?


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

You can avoid them. I have only been on the campus to see the Bush library. :rofl:


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> *nope.
> 
> I don't remember ever commenting on the 330i ZHP, as I have never driven one. *


"For anyone to say that a 330i ZHP is far and away better than an E46 M3 is just pure trolling and/or blindness"


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

JST said:


> *"For anyone to say that a 330i ZHP is far and away better than an E46 M3 is just pure trolling and/or blindness"
> 
> *


I meant to add "without ever drivng them"


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2003)

atyclb said:


> *I meant to add "without ever drivng them" *


How do YOU know it's not a true statement without driving them?

I mean, as you have never driven the ZHP, you have no idea if it's better than your car or not. Assuming yours (the E46 M3) is better is certainly no different than what you're accusing me of.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I doubt that I would find the E46 M3 suspension to be harsh. Because it IS an E46 after all. Nothing about the E46 is harsh. *


The "objective" reviews that you mention also consitantly complain about the low refinement and harshness :dunno:


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## Cal (Jan 4, 2002)

JST, TD, SteveMD,

Thanks for taking the time to do an honest review on both the 330i ZHP and e36 M3. Just as I expected, the 330i ZHP is truly a great car. I had been pondering since the announcement of this car whether or not to trade in my 323i for it. However, due to the price differential and the fact that I have always loved the M3/4s, I decided to go for the latter. I will post pics and a quick review of my 98 M3/4 once I finish with my taxes.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Cal said:


> *JST, TD, SteveMD,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to do an honest review on both the 330i ZHP and e36 M3. Just as I expected, the 330i ZHP is truly a great car. I had been pondering since the announcement of this car whether or not to trade in my 323i for it. However, due to the price differential and the fact that I have always loved the M3/4s, I decided to go for the latter. I will post pics and a quick review of my 98 M3/4 once I finish with my taxes.
> 
> *


As long as you don't mind the minor inconveniences that can come with owning a used car, there's nothing wrong with an M3/4--it's still the driving feel champion, and for what they are going for now (less than a stripped 325 :yikes: ), well worth it.


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## SteveMD (Apr 22, 2002)

I will always regard the E36 M3 as the feedback king. Gotta love it (and I do). I dig the Koni's in TD's car. 

I want the E46 M3 ...... I mean, I want the light forged wheels and the steering wheel. I have never driven one. 

Refresh my memory: the only reason that BMW continues to fit staggered wheel sizes is to induce understeer? I fail to see the reason for the huge 255/35/18 rear tires. The car has only 235 hp.

Throttle response: yeah, still a bit of lag but this is on a tight engine. Check with me again @ 10k miles.

I am not sure but I think all that cloth makes for more intense 'new car' smell or stink (my opinion) than leather or leatherette would. 

To sum up: the E36 M3 is the best E36 built and the 330I ZHP is the best E46 (sedan) built.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SteveMD said:


> *Refresh my memory: the only reason that BMW continues to fit staggered wheel sizes is to induce understeer? I fail to see the reason for the huge 255/35/18 rear tires. The car has only 235 hp.*


It's also done for looks. Fatter tires at the back is (rightly or wrongly) a symbol of high performance.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> You can avoid them. I have only been on the campus to see the Bush library. :rofl: *


I lived in that town for 3 years... CS is the epicenter of hard-line conservatism in the US.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Interesting review. I had an incredibly full schedule yesterday, but it would have been fun to check out the lineup and add my stock-suspension M3 coupe to the fray. Actually, it would have been even cooler to add an E46 M3 to the test.

Having never driven either an E46 M3 or a ZHP, I can only say that the findings are very encouraging to an enthusiast's eyes. My test drives of two different '02 330s led me directly to an E36 M3, but it sounds like the ZHP is far more seductive than the regular-issue sedan. It's good to know that you can buy a four-door car as exciting as you three make it out to be.

Unfortunately, it kinda blows that it took until the end of the E46 production run for BMW to make this option package a reality. I wouldn't be surprised if the E90 doesn't offer a ZHP-like package until a few years have passed.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

the ZHP bits and pieces are Steve Dinan's nightmare. now he can no longer sell his $2200 stage 2 bits (cold air plus software plus a (useless) throttle body).

and compared to dinan prices, the ZHP is a bargain. have no idea why future people would order regular 330i's now if they can afford this package, even guessing that they might want to upgrade the car a little in the future.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

pdz said:


> *the ZHP bits and pieces are Steve Dinan's nightmare. now he can no longer sell his $2200 stage 2 bits (cold air plus software plus a (useless) throttle body).
> 
> and compared to dinan prices, the ZHP is a bargain. have no idea why future people would order regular 330i's now if they can afford this package, even guessing that they might want to upgrade the car a little in the future. *


Even though the ZHP seems like a nice package, it will still likely understeer like a pig...

A car with a Dinan suspension (esp. stg. III) will be MUCH more balanced.


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

pdz said:


> *the ZHP bits and pieces are Steve Dinan's nightmare. now he can no longer sell his $2200 stage 2 bits (cold air plus software plus a (useless) throttle body).
> 
> and compared to dinan prices, the ZHP is a bargain. have no idea why future people would order regular 330i's now if they can afford this package, even guessing that they might want to upgrade the car a little in the future. *


Well, compared to Dinan products, just about anything would seem like a bargain, at least on paper. For a lot of people, not getting the ZHP is not a matter of affordability - it's perceived value more than anything else.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

*For JST, SteveMD, and TD*

Found your reviews to be very interesting. Just a couple of questions about the handling. How much did the ZHP understeer compared to the M3/4? How easy is it to bring the tail out either under trail braking or under power? I'll understand if you didn't get a chance to explore these aspects of the ZHP's handling.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: For JST, SteveMD, and TD*



GregD said:


> *Found your reviews to be very interesting. Just a couple of questions about the handling. How much did the ZHP understeer compared to the M3/4? How easy is it to bring the tail out either under trail braking or under power? I'll understand if you didn't get a chance to explore these aspects of the ZHP's handling.  *


Yes, since they were both someone else's car, and we were on public roads, we didn't really push the limit.

Generally, I found the 323 that I used to have to be very neutral, but it had equal size tires all the way around. With more negative camber up front, I've got to figure that (if anything) the ZHP will understeer less, though the staggered tires may dial this out. Rotating the tail on the 330 shouldn't be that hard, even without LSD.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: For JST, SteveMD, and TD*



JST said:


> *Yes, since they were both someone else's car, and we were on public roads, we didn't really push the limit.
> 
> Generally, I found the 323 that I used to have to be very neutral, but it had equal size tires all the way around. With more negative camber up front, I've got to figure that (if anything) the ZHP will understeer less, though the staggered tires may dial this out. Rotating the tail on the 330 shouldn't be that hard, even without LSD. *


ah geez.

i can rotate the tail of an xiT. it's just speed, momentum, and a nice arc around the corner. i see that DSC light come on a lot in dry conditions. even more in the wet.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: For JST, SteveMD, and TD*



pdz said:


> *ah geez.
> 
> i can rotate the tail of an xiT. it's just speed, momentum, and a nice arc around the corner. *


Gentle to severe trailbraking will do it to, provided that you set up the turn properly. It's all about moving the weight to where you want it.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: For JST, SteveMD, and TD*



JST said:


> *Yes, since they were both someone else's car, and we were on public roads, we didn't really push the limit.
> 
> Generally, I found the 323 that I used to have to be very neutral, but it had equal size tires all the way around. With more negative camber up front, I've got to figure that (if anything) the ZHP will understeer less, though the staggered tires may dial this out. Rotating the tail on the 330 shouldn't be that hard, even without LSD. *


I have -0.8 deg negaive on the front and equal sized tires, still plows like crazy at the track...just has more grip.

I wish that I had some power, or a better diff ratio to get some real oversteer...


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## Jspeed (Dec 23, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *I have -0.8 deg negaive on the front and equal sized tires, still plows like crazy at the track...just has more grip.
> *


... and I paraphrase our local auto-x guru and multiple-time SCCA national Solo II trophied driver. With the wrong driving style, even Michael Schumacher's Ferrari F1 will understeer into a corner. I'm not criticizing your driving style at all, as I've never seen you drive. I'm merely suggesting that you might not have gotten down your weight transfer into corners.


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