# BMW Selling Laundered Titles



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

maof2girls said:


> § 56:12-35. Sale, leasing of returned motor vehicle
> 
> If a motor vehicle is returned to the manufacturer, or, in the case of an authorized emergency vehicle, to the manu-facturer, co-manufacturer, or post-manufacturing modifier, *under the provisions of this act* or a similar statute of another state


That is the key clause.

In many cases BMW NA buys the cars voluntarily (trade assist) and NOT under the provisions this act.

BMW isn't alone here. Other manufacturers do the same thing to reduce the number of 'lemons'.


----------



## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

So where does "Manufacturer Buyback" fall in this situation? Can they and should they be resold as CPO without customer disclosure?


----------



## maof2girls (Jul 21, 2010)

1985mb said:


> So where does "Manufacturer Buyback" fall in this situation? Can they and should they be resold as CPO without customer disclosure?


NO. A manufacturer buys back a car under the lemon law because they can't repair it.


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Why is everyone getting their knickers in a knot? 

A CPO is a USED CAR that the manufacturer is warranting. If you are buying a USED CAR, you are taking the chance that it has a "story" - crash damage, repo, trade assist, whatever. Can you imagine anyone making a stink because the used Hyundai they bought at Swifty Soprano's Used Cars had a problem? At least the CPO comes with a warranty - good luck getting Swifty to stand behind the iron he's moving.

There is a problem if - and ONLY if - BMW is laundering titles and misrepresenting a car that under the relevant state statutes is deemed to be a "lemon". There is a lot of bluster here, but I have yet to see any EVIDENCE that BMWUSA wittingly or unwittingly laundered the title of even one vehicle.

Sounds to me like a bunch of sleazy lawyers trolling for business. And second-rate journalists hungry for a splashy headline.

Any mass-produced human-made product is going to have variations in quality (Google Edward Deming). It is inevitable that a sample of new cars will have problems that are challenging to fix; and regular 'Fest members have certainly seen examples of this, not just with the F10 but in vitrually every other BMW model. I give BMWUSA huge props for standing behind the product they distribute (not manufacture), via the trade assist program.


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

BTW I just clicked on the OP's name and the "read all posts" feature. Surprise, surprise: all 32 posts she has made (I'm assuming from the sig the OP is a she) concern her problems with her vehicle, and her over-arching vendetta against BMW.

Oh, the drama!


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

quackbury said:


> BTW I just clicked on the OP's name and the "read all posts" feature. Surprise, surprise: all 32 posts she has made (I'm assuming from the sig the OP is a she) concern her problems with her vehicle, and her over-arching vendetta against BMW.
> 
> Oh, the drama!


Time to let this thread die then. OP will never admit to or  understand the legal difference between a lemon law buyback and a voluntary "trade assist" buyback.


----------



## maof2girls (Jul 21, 2010)

I know the difference, I also know that BMW sells outstanding autos... when they are not in "limp mode"


----------



## RBinDC (Aug 8, 2010)

SARAFIL said:


> BMW will not CPO a car that was repurchased under a state lemon law. Once it is repurchased under the lemon law, it is also "branded" in BMW's system which makes it ineligible to be enrolled in the CPO program.
> 
> They can CPO a car that has been traded in under the "trade assist" program, which *is not* the lemon law.
> 
> So your next question... do they sneak cars into the "trade assist" program to avoid branding them as lemons? The answer is definitely *NO*. I know that the first thing they check on every trade assist package (and they tell every dealer to check this before even thinking about doing a trade assist) is that the car does not meet state lemon law requirements. If it does, they will not approve the trade assist and will require the dealer to go through the lemon law.


This is consistent with an experience I had last year. I visited a dealership near Baltimore that had a low mileage M3 for sale at a very attractive price. I asked if the car was a CPO. The salesman said no and that they would not CPO it. He then said BMW bought the car back from the original owner because he claimed the adjustable suspension did not work. The salesman claimed that BMW could not find anything wrong with the vehicle.

At the time I didn't think much about it but now I think the car was repurchased as a lemon, which would explain why they would not CPO it.


----------



## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

RBinDC said:


> This is consistent with an experience I had last year. I visited a dealership near Baltimore that had a low mileage M3 for sale at a very attractive price. I asked if the car was a CPO. The salesman said no and that they would not CPO it. He then said BMW bought the car back from the original owner because he claimed the adjustable suspension did not work. The salesman claimed that BMW could not find anything wrong with the vehicle.
> 
> *At the time I didn't think much about it but now I think the car was repurchased as a lemon, which would explain why they would not CPO it*.


If the car is repurchased as a lemon, there will be a title restriction that identifies the car as a lemon law repurchase (at least in California). The title restriction will show up in the Carfax report.


----------



## BayAreaBimmer (Dec 30, 2010)

This is extremely common in the 135i's. In fact, i've heard they're so common in the 135's that BMW will replace the HPFP no questions asked. Seems like you're better off getting the 128i due to the fact that they have no HPFP.


----------



## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

maof2girls said:


> *Is BMW Selling Bought-Back Lemons as 'Certified Pre-Owned'?*
> 
> ABC News reported on Oct. 26 that it had an 'exclusive' report on problems with BMW (BAMXY) vehicles that could suddenly lose power due to defective high-pressure fuel pumps (HPFP). That's a story I broke over three months ago on DailyFinance. But no matter, at least the ABC story appears to have sparked BMW into announcing it would recall 151,000 vehicles affected by the HPFP problem and replace their fuel pumps and add new software.
> 
> ...


Good story, but I'm finding it hard to get over the fact that you are "maof2girls" and your first name is Peter. I'm sorry; things like that distract me from the intended message. Okay; I'm done.


----------



## maof2girls (Jul 21, 2010)

Peter wrote the article, I posted it. Mystery solved.


----------



## Naldo (Jan 20, 2011)

RBinDC said:


> This is consistent with an experience I had last year. I visited a dealership near Baltimore that had a low mileage M3 for sale at a very attractive price. I asked if the car was a CPO. The salesman said no and that they would not CPO it. He then said BMW bought the car back from the original owner because he claimed the adjustable suspension did not work. The salesman claimed that BMW could not find anything wrong with the vehicle.
> 
> At the time I didn't think much about it but now I think the car was repurchased as a lemon, which would explain why they would not CPO it.


There are a few reasons that the M3 could not be CPOd, one of the more common is that a new M3 is sold with "break-in" oil and must be changed at 1200 miles, though you do have up to 2400 miles to do this break in oil change. If this oil change does not take place then the M3 can not be CPOd ever.

Many a CA neglects to inform the buyer of a new M3 about this and while it might have a negligible effect on that buyer, any future buyer loses out.


----------



## mhrir (May 17, 2010)

quackbury said:


> Why is everyone getting their knickers in a knot?
> 
> A CPO is a USED CAR that the manufacturer is warranting. If you are buying a USED CAR, you are taking the chance that it has a "story" - crash damage, repo, trade assist, whatever. Can you imagine anyone making a stink because the used Hyundai they bought at Swifty Soprano's Used Cars had a problem? At least the CPO comes with a warranty - good luck getting Swifty to stand behind the iron he's moving.
> 
> ...


+1

I will add that a car becomes a "lemon" when settlement under the terms of the statute has been completed. It does not automatically become a lemon when the requirement of the individual state statute or Magnuson-Moss Act has been reached. In Illinois, for example, the statute requires that the owner first has to go through an "informal" settlement procedure with the manufacturer. Only when the owner is dissatisfied with the outcome of the informal procedure can they then initiate a civil action to enforce their rights under the statute.

So at anytime the manufacturer can buy back or trade assist the defective vehicle and circumvent the car being branded a "lemon". There is nothing illegal or imoral about this. A buyer of any pre-owned vehicle should do their due diligence to determine the history of the car. Caveat emptor.


----------



## sgi4side (Jul 23, 2004)

*BMW is still doing it.*

BMW is still doing this. Last year I bought a 550I in IL with a clear title and brought the car back to CA to register. The title came out as lemon buy back.


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Curious- what is the proper way for manufacturers to handle lemons? Are they meant to be "destroyed"? Or just disclosed to the buyer? 

Have a feeling that its not "BMW" that is involved in some of these sleazy stories but individual dealers. Car gets lemoned, sent to a large dealer auction, dealer from another state purchases and knowingly or not "launders" the title.


----------



## maof2girls (Jul 21, 2010)

It might be reasonable to assume that they are disassembled and crushed by the manufacturer, since they've already been determined to be unrepairable. But that isn't what usually happens.

The cars are often resold to other buyers, who may not be aware that the car is a lemon.

Manufacturers say that when they buy back a lemon, they fix the problem before sending it to a dealer auction and that paperwork is done to identify the vehicle as a "lemon buyback," much the way vehicles decaled total losses by insurance companies are supposed to be branded as "salvage."

But fewer than half the states require that lemon buybacks be designated as such on their titles. And even when a car is labeled a lemon, that designation can conveniently be lost if a car is sold in a state other than the one where a lemon law case was pursued.


----------



## timfitz63 (Aug 10, 2010)

bmw325 said:


> ... Car gets lemoned, sent to a large dealer auction, dealer from another state purchases and knowingly or not "launders" the title.





maof2girls said:


> ... The cars are often resold to other buyers, who may not be aware that the car is a lemon.
> 
> Manufacturers say that when they buy back a lemon, they fix the problem before sending it to a dealer auction and that paperwork is done to identify the vehicle as a "lemon buyback," much the way vehicles decaled total losses by insurance companies are supposed to be branded as "salvage."
> 
> But fewer than half the states require that lemon buybacks be designated as such on their titles. And even when a car is labeled a lemon, that designation can conveniently be lost if a car is sold in a state other than the one where a lemon law case was pursued.


I can say with some authority that this is almost assuredly what happens. Some years ago, I owned a 9-month-old GMC Jimmy that was bought back under PA lemon law; I later learned that the vehicle was held by the buyback dealer for a period of time, sold at a dealer-only auction, then subsequently bought by a likely unsuspecting consumer.

Like the old saying goes: caveat emptor...


----------



## Campfamily (Sep 20, 2010)

timfitz63 said:


> I can say with some authority that this is almost assuredly what happens. Some years ago, I owned a 9-month-old GMC Jimmy that was bought back under PA lemon law; I later learned that the vehicle was held by the buyback dealer for a period of time, sold at a dealer-only auction, then subsequently bought by a likely unsuspecting consumer.
> 
> Like the old saying goes: caveat emptor...


^^^ DITTO ^^^ I lemon-lawed a Nissan Armada back in 2005 for bad brakes. Nissan wholesaled the truck out in Tennessee. The branding of the title does show up if you run a CarFax on it, but would be real curious to know if that was disclosed to the person who ultimately ended up buying it.


----------



## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

Campfamily said:


> ^^^ DITTO ^^^ I lemon-lawed a Nissan Armada back in 2005 for bad brakes. Nissan wholesaled the truck out in Tennessee. The branding of the title does show up if you run a CarFax on it, but would be real curious to know if that was disclosed to the person who ultimately ended up buying it.


If the issue was completely rectified, does it matter? I.E. I'm sure you've sold a vehicle which had problems in the past which were corrected, did you notify the buyer of said long gone issues?


----------

