# Best Family car?



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

We've had many polls/debates about what the best car/sports car/sports sdean is. But, I'm curious to see which cars make the best "family" cars. My assumptions would be that the car should:
-be able to hold 2-3 kids (which nearly every car can)
-be reasonably durable/reliable
-safe
-not annoy its car-nut owner too much
-not cost so much that it cramps your budget.
-can hold enough stuff for said family to take a 1week vacation

I've seen some vehement points of view expressed on this board. Some say that you're silly to not just buy SUV or minivnan. Others think something like an e36 M3 is fine as a family car (and there's all sorts of other opinions in between). I don't have any kids yet, so I'm not as qualified to make this statement, but I'm inclined to side with those who favor sedans/wagons over minivans or SUVs. Because:
-when we were growing up, people got by with sedans and wagons
-Europeans still do fine without minivans and SUVs for the most part (yes, I know they have those horrific looking MPVs). IN Europe, its not uncommon to see a 320d wagon stuffed to the gills with kids and supplies on a 10 hour drive toward Spain (for example). 

If buying used:
-e34 wagon
-e39 wagon
-used Audi a6 wagon
Personally, I'd be probably be most inclined to go with an e39 528i wagon.

If new (this makes it really tough for me)
-wait 2 years and get an e90 wagon (barf).
-a good lease deal on a new style (barf) A6 wagon.
-a good lease deal on a e60 wagon (double barf).
-decide that I find hte other options so unappealing that I'd be willing to trade off some pspace and get a last run e46 sedan or wagon. Despite my low opinion of the styling of these new cars, I'd still rather have one of those than a minivan or SUV.

What are your votes for good family cars (for people that care about cars)? Do you fall into the "it has to be an SUV or minivan camp" or the "a sedan or station wagon is fine". Does it have to be new? or is used ok with you?


----------



## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

robg said:


> We've had many polls/debates about what the best car/sports car/sports sdean is. But, I'm curious to see which cars make the best "family" cars. My assumptions would be that the car should:
> 
> -be able to hold 2-3 kids (which nearly every car can)


depends on their age.

I'm not sure any car will hold 3 kids in car seats

EDIT: or even 2 car seats + one other child


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

atyclb said:


> depends on their age.
> 
> I'm not sure any car will hold 3 kids in car seats
> 
> EDIT: or even 2 car seats + one other child


Good point aty ... I have used the Allroad which is pretty wide with my 3 kids (1 rear facing car seat & 2 booster seats) The problem is the rear facing seat sits over the buckle fasteners and the other 2 kids can't buckle their seatbelts and when I try to buckle it for them it is a major pain in the a**. You hurt your hands each time and it's a struggle.

SUV's are good but then again it really depends on what you need. Luckily in our Volvo, the middle seat is a built in booster or I would have a similiar problem as I have in the Audi.

I've had all the cars you've mentioned, the small SUV (Pathfinder), a larger suv (Volvo XC90), the minivan (odyssey), the german station wagon (Allroad), the 330i, the RX8 & the 330Ci.

I think hands down the Minivan is definitely the best family hauler. It is so easy to put the kids into the seats especially with the electric sliding rear doors, there is an aisle between the 2nd row seat which provides easy access to the 3rd row and the room behind the 3rd row in van's like the odyssey provides a lot of storage space.

BTW I had a Chevy Suburban for a week (it was a rental) and while it was almost as good as the Minivan, the 3rd row was a pain in the a** to access with a car seat in the 2nd row. Overall I was surprised by how good the Suburban was and it was very comfortable.


----------



## drmwvr (Feb 21, 2003)

A friend of mine bought one of the new generation Nissan Maximas. I have to say that it is growing on me and the back seat is huge. While I have not tried to put three kids (and seats) in the back, I would venture to say that is has more room than most sedans. Also has a huge trunk and I think I read somewhere that it did very well in crash testing.

And, I found it fun to drive (torque steer and all).

It's probably worth taking a look at.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

drmwvr said:


> A friend of mine bought one of the new generation Nissan Maximas. I have to say that it is growing on me and the back seat is huge. While I have not tried to put three kids (and seats) in the back, I would venture to say that is has more room than most sedans. Also has a huge trunk and I think I read somewhere that it did very well in crash testing.
> 
> And, I found it fun to drive (torque steer and all).
> 
> It probably worth taking a look at.


I definitely agree ... that Maxima is a great car .... here is my review of it ...

http://bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80389

I was amazed by how great it was


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

For 2 child seat aged kids, I'd think a Maxima/Camry/Accord or a Mazda6/Subaru wagon would be good.

For young but older than toddler kids, I think a Civic-sized car would be fine, as long as you can fit all your stuff in the trunk.

If you're looking for BMW solutions, I'd say 5er wagon for infants/toddlers to fit diapers and strollers, etc., and 3er sedan for slightly older kids would be my ideal minimal size requirements.


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

We've done 3 across in our Saab wagon (2 ours, 1 neighbor kid) and they fit fine. Sure, they have to "get along" as the seats are literally next to each other, but it's really no worse than sitting 4 across in an old Oldsmobile wagon in the '70s without any special seats. Certainly 2 kids fit VERY easily

Our Saab more or less passes the "tolerable for the enthusiast" test, although it falls short as an enthusiast's primary car.

If you compare specs, the Saab is significantly larger than an E39 wagon, especially in terms or rear seat room. When our youngest was still in a rear-facing child seat, I could have it installed directly behind the drivers seat and move the drivers seat to where I am comfortable (at 6' 1") and still have more room to spare (the seat wouldn't be touching the child seat). I've tried the same in an E39 and the furthest back position I could put the drivers seat in wasn't tolerable for me in teh drivers seat for more than 5 minutes.

Our Saab is the 9-5 Aero wagon with the 5-spd.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

TD said:


> We've done 3 across in our Saab wagon (2 ours, 1 neighbor kid) and they fit fine. Sure, they have to "get along" as the seats are literally next to each other, but it's really no worse than sitting 4 across in an old Oldsmobile wagon in the '70s without any special seats. Certainly 2 kids fit VERY easily
> 
> Our Saab more or less passes the "tolerable for the enthusiast" test, although it falls short as an enthusiast's primary car.
> 
> ...


Aren't all Saabs FWD? Do you find it to be fun despite that?


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

swchang said:


> Aren't all Saabs FWD? Do you find it to be fun despite that?


 Dude, people are talking about Maximas in this thread. The Saab is much more fun to drive than any Maxima.

But I did address this with "Our Saab more or less passes the "tolerable for the enthusiast" test, although it falls short as an enthusiast's primary car." Yes, it's FWD. No, it's not perfect. But for what it is (a big ass wagon), it's pretty darn interesting.

And it does better in snow than a RWD wagon would.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

TD said:


> Dude, people are talking about Maximas in this thread. The Saab is much more fun to drive than any Maxima.
> 
> But I did address this with "Our Saab more or less passes the "tolerable for the enthusiast" test, although it falls short as an enthusiast's primary car." Yes, it's FWD. No, it's not perfect. But for what it is (a big ass wagon), it's pretty darn interesting.
> 
> And it does better in snow than a RWD wagon would.


----------



## Keith (Feb 27, 2002)

TD said:


> Dude, people are talking about Maximas in this thread. The Saab is much more fun to drive than any Maxima.
> 
> But I did address this with "Our Saab more or less passes the "tolerable for the enthusiast" test, although it falls short as an enthusiast's primary car." Yes, it's FWD. No, it's not perfect. But for what it is (a big ass wagon), it's pretty darn interesting.
> 
> And it does better in snow than a RWD wagon would.


And don't forget that's one good looking Saab TD! :thumbup:

But you know me, I say an E34 wagon, why, I'm an E34 guy! :neener:


----------



## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Keith said:


> good looking Saab


oxymoron?


----------



## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

TD said:


> If you compare specs, the Saab is significantly larger than an E39 wagon, especially in terms or rear seat room.


Is it really? I didn't realize that. 9-5 is a really great looking wagon TD. I will definitely look at one. hey are so reasonably priced used. Is the cargo space much bigger than E39? How does it stack up to Volvo in terms of driving dynamics? How's the reliability?
Thanks!


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

robg, why do you post essentially the same question phrased differently every 2 or 3 months? :dunno:


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

Wallenrod said:


> Is it really? I didn't realize that. 9-5 is a really great looking wagon TD. I will definitely look at one. hey are so reasonably priced used. Is the cargo space much bigger than E39? How does it stack up to Volvo in terms of driving dynamics? How's the reliability?
> Thanks!


 They depreciate like bricks. So you can get a used one for A LOT less than a new one.

A typical Saab drives a lot like a typical Volvo. The Aero (the "high performance" model - which is only really high performance compared to non-Aero Saabs) feels better than all but the highest performance Volvos. But I understand the highest performance Volvos, the S60R and V70R (I have yet to drive one), feel significantly more sporting.

The Saab is again pretty decent when thought of in terms of a big ass wagon but not as good when thought of in terms of a full-blown sport sedan.

That said, plenty of guys track Saab 9-5 Aeros. It's all a matter of perspective.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

TD said:


> We've done 3 across in our Saab wagon (2 ours, 1 neighbor kid) and they fit fine. Sure, they have to "get along" as the seats are literally next to each other, but it's really no worse than sitting 4 across in an old Oldsmobile wagon in the '70s without any special seats. Certainly 2 kids fit VERY easily


That must be one tight a** fit ... how the heck are you buckling the seats in with no space to work with ...

My Volvo & Allroad are probably wider then your Saab and I know what a b*tch it is to put 3 in when they are all in car seats.

Can it be done ... yes, would I want to do it everyday just so I could have a normal sized car ... no way :thumbdwn:

If our Volvo didn't have the built in booster seat (which gives you more room) it would have been history ...

Now we are only talking 2 kids in car seats, then that would be a totally different story and any mid size sedan or wagon would do the job beautifully ...


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

AF-RX8 said:


> That must be one tight a** fit ... how the heck are you buckling the seats in with no space to work with ...
> 
> My Volvo & Allroad are probably wider then your Saab and I know what a b*tch it is to put 3 in when they are all in car seats.
> 
> ...


 But if Rob currently has ZERO kids, a vehicle that will accomodate 2 kids comfortably will definitely do for AT LEAST the next 3 or so years. Then he can start looking for plan B.

EDIT- Out 3 across outings have involved one booster seat and two regular child seats. I doubt it could have worked with 3 regular child seats. But, then again, by the time you have a third kid, your first one willalmost certainly be old enough to ride in a booster (unless two of your 3 arrive as twins).


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

TD said:


> The Saab is again pretty decent when thought of in terms of a big ass wagon but not as good when thought of in terms of a full-blown sport sedan.


I drove from Copenhagen to Stockholm last October (670km of very nice Swedish highway) and followed/chased what had to be a new 9-5 Aero Wagon, for about 280km of the way.

We were driving between 110km/h (the speed limit in the Kingdom of Sweden) and 190km/h. I was not only impressed with how the SAAB looked, but how quick it was. Ok, compared to my POS E39, anything is quicker/faster. Regardless, I am willing to admit that I like the look of that wagon.

I am not surprised to hear that it has more interior room than the E39 Touring (although I have never seen the numbers).

Regarding RobG's original question: just buy the E39 and get it over with!



.


----------



## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> I drove from Copenhagen to Stockholm last October (670km of very nice Swedish highway) and followed/chased what had to be a new 9-5 Aero Wagon, for about 280km of the way.
> 
> We were driving between 110km/h (the speed limit in the Kingdom of Sweden) and 190km/h. I was not only impressed with how the SAAB looked, but how quick it was. Ok, compared to my POS E39, anything is quicker/faster. Regardless, I am willing to admit that I like the look of that wagon.
> 
> ...


My answer:


----------



## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> But if Rob currently has ZERO kids, a vehicle that will accomodate 2 kids comfortably will definitely do for AT LEAST the next 3 or so years. Then he can start looking for plan B.


not necessarily


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

atyclb said:


> not necessarily


 You don't disappoint. The second I hit post on that prior post, I fully expected YOU to post something about triplets.

In which case, if he survives the suicide attempt, he might as well just get a minivan.


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> I am not surprised to hear that it has more interior room than the E39 Touring (although I have never seen the numbers).


FYI (for Rob as well)... (all specs from Edmunds.com for MY 2000 models)

*E39 540i Wagon specs:*

Front Head Room: 37.4 in. Front Shoulder Room: 56.8 in. 
Rear Head Room: 37.4 in. Rear Shoulder Room: 55.9 in. 
Front Leg Room: 41.7 in. Rear Leg Room: 34.2 in. 
Luggage Capacity: 32.7 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 63 cu. ft.

Horsepower: 282 hp Max Horsepower: 5400 rpm 
Torque: 324 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 3600 rpm

Curb Weight: 4056 lbs.

Automatic transmission only

*Saab 9-5 Aero wagon specs:*

Front Head Room: 38.7 in. Front Shoulder Room: 56.9 in. 
Rear Head Room: 38.2 in. Rear Shoulder Room: 56.5 in. 
Front Leg Room: 42.4 in. Rear Leg Room: 36.6 in. 
Luggage Capacity: 37 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 73 cu. ft.

Horsepower: 230 hp Max Horsepower: 5500 rpm 
Torque: 258 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 1900 rpm

Curb Weight: 3620 lbs.

Manual transmission available


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Kaz said:


> robg, why do you post essentially the same question phrased differently every 2 or 3 months? :dunno:


Sorry- that really isn't my intention. I know that I obsess over e39s and e34s, but I honestly just wanted to specifically talk about family cars. I hadn't really thought about cars in that light before, and most of the candidates I can think of are minivans or trucks. I was interested to see what people thought of using sedans or wagons in tihs capacity.

Today on the way to work, I saw an early 90s S-class. Anotehr possibility? Big, safe, durable and roomy. Don't know how much they cost now or how expensive they are to maintain.

I'll try to be more careful about bringing up the 5 series topic again (but like I said, that wasn't the purpose of this thread).


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

TD said:


> *E39 540i Wagon specs:*
> 
> Luggage Capacity: 32.7 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 63 cu. ft.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting the numbers.

That is quite an impressive difference. The 9-5 Aero Wagon does also seem to have a larger "looking" trunk area, both in terms of width and length.

.


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> Thanks for posting the numbers.
> 
> That is quite an impressive difference. The 9-5 Aero Wagon does also seem to have a larger "looking" trunk area, both in terms of width and length.
> 
> .


Yep.


----------



## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

Thanks for the info TD. 9-5s are so tempting from the financial standpoint. It would probably be the wisest decision. I just love the S4 Avant though. It is perfect for what we need. If money was no object... 
I drove V70R and I didn't like it. At all. I loved S4 (for what it is). I'm afraid Saab maybe too close to Volvo but then again maybe I shouldn't really care so much about driving experience and think of it as a transportation mode.
But it would kill me to think that there are wagons out there like S4 or 540iT (S4 has better driving dynamics BTW). 
One thing I don't like about Saabs though is that weird dashboard, looks like a spaceship. Exteriorwise I think it's beautiful design.


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

Wallenrod said:


> Thanks for the info TD. 9-5s are so tempting from the financial standpoint. It would probably be the wisest decision. I just love the S4 Avant though. It is perfect for what we need. If money was no object...
> I drove V70R and I didn't like it. At all. I loved S4 (for what it is). I'm afraid Saab maybe too close to Volvo but then again maybe I shouldn't really care so much about driving experience and think of it as a transportation mode.
> But it would kill me to think that there are wagons out there like S4 or 540iT (S4 has better driving dynamics BTW).
> One thing I don't like about Saabs though is that weird dashboard, looks like a spaceship. Exteriorwise I think it's beautiful design.


 They do drive a lot like Volvos. But there are worse things. SUVs and minivans to name two.

I LOVE the S4 Avant. But it's small. And expensive. But cost no object, it's a no brainer. However, cost is an object.

And I like the idea of the 540iT as well. But no stick means no sale. Plus the rear seat room in an E39 isn't much (read only ~1 inch) larger than that of an E46. If you're putting child seats back there, that's not enough room to work with.

I just have accepted that the Saab plays the role of family car. Compared to other vehicles offering similar functionality/practicality, it is amazingly performance-oriented. It's just not amazingly performance-oriented compared to my E36 M3 sedan. But since I have that M3 sedan, the family car doesn't *need* to be quite as performance-oriented.

However, I still find myself taking offramps as quickly as the wagon allows (when the kids aren't in it). And I managed to kill a set of tires in 12K miles. So it's not *that* boring.


----------



## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

robg said:


> -Europeans still do fine without minivans and SUVs for the most part (yes, I know they have those horrific looking MPVs). IN Europe, its not uncommon to see a 320d wagon stuffed to the gills with kids and supplies on a 10 hour drive toward Spain (for example).


Just because Germans suffer through ten hours in hell because their government taxes them so much that the can't afford better, doesn't mean you should not try to avoid it if you can.


----------



## ed325i (Dec 20, 2001)

nate said:


> Just because Germans suffer through ten hours in hell because their government taxes them so much that the can't afford better, doesn't mean you should not try to avoid it if you can.


Nate,

Have you been to Europe? Your political views aside, large American style SUVs are not practical for most of Europe, even if their fuel costs are the same as ours. For one thing, their roads are much more narrow.

Back to topic at hand. If I am to buy a "family car" right now, I would get a Subie Outback.

Ed


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

TD said:


> They do drive a lot like Volvos. But there are worse things. SUVs and minivans to name two.


As much as I'd like to agree with the above statement the truth is you are way off base ... yes the Saab is better off when you are driving by* yourself* but when your with the family the most important thing is driving like your a limo driver. In other words the passengers shouldn't feel a thing ... a minivan is 100 times better then your Saab or my Allroad for that matter (which is 10 times the car the saab FWD wagon is). Come on bud ... you've come this for to admit a fwd wagon is better for the family then your M3 ... you only have a little more to go ... admit it, the saab is a great car but you know a SUV or a Minivan is a much better family car.

The problem I see is you have only owned a few cars so experience cannot play in this decision ... so trust someone who has had them all ... a minivan is the best answer.


----------



## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Ed328Ci said:


> Nate,
> 
> Have you been to Europe? Your political views aside, large American style SUVs are not practical for most of Europe, even if their fuel costs are the same as ours. For one thing, their roads are much more narrow.


Yes, I have. I drove as well.

Road size is not as much of an excuse as you might think. Yes, the old cities have space limitations, but new developments and country roads could easily accomidate wider lanes if people were driving larger cars. They can't because of financial reasons.

The point is that those of us in North America can afford and enjoy larger cars if we so choose. I don't see any reason to buy a small uncomfortable car by justifiying it because "Europeans do it."


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

how about a used S6 avant? audi so resale should be bad but it is also a S so maybe not.

My sister has the prev generation 9-3 convertible, interior is horrible GM budget :thumbdwn: is the 9-5 simliar? 

nice looking wagon TD


----------



## Guest (Jan 11, 2005)

AF-RX8 said:


> As much as I'd like to agree with the above statement the truth is you are way off base ... yes the Saab is better off when you are driving by* yourself* but when your with the family the most important thing is driving like your a limo driver. In other words the passengers shouldn't feel a thing ... a minivan is 100 times better then your Saab or my Allroad for that matter (which is 10 times the car the saab FWD wagon is). Come on bud ... you've come this for to admit a fwd wagon is better for the family then your M3 ... you only have a little more to go ... admit it, the saab is a great car but you know a SUV or a Minivan is a much better family car.
> 
> The problem I see is you have only owned a few cars so experience cannot play in this decision ... so trust someone who has had them all ... a minivan is the best answer.


 If you recall, my daughter has a habit of yelling, "Faster, daddy, faster" from the backseat.

While I don't drive like an idiot with the kids in the car, I don't drive like a granny either. Neither does my wife.


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

AF-RX8 said:


> a minivan is 100 times better then your Saab or my Allroad for that matter (which is 10 times the car the saab FWD wagon is).


Our family traded in a station wagon for a minivan when I was still of an age to be tossed in the back and taken on long trips - and I remember the first trip in the minivan. I really hated it. The station wagon was better. Something about the strange squishy feeling of not going anywhere and the inability to open the window and lean on the sill from where I was strapped in...

I'm not saying that eveyone should agree, but the mantra that a minivan is always better for kids is not necessarily true. I loved being in the back seat - or, more rarely for the youngest of 4 - the shotgun position when my brother was driving one of the mildly sporty sedans he had at the time. I felt that cars were for moving, and I wanted to feel and enjoy the movement.


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Oh, the best family car is a Hummer H2, Soviet Style.


----------



## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

The Roadstergal said:


> Our family traded in a station wagon for a minivan when I was still of an age to be tossed in the back and taken on long trips - and I remember the first trip in the minivan. I really hated it. The station wagon was better. Something about the strange squishy feeling of not going anywhere and the inability to open the window and lean on the sill from where I was strapped in...
> 
> I'm not saying that eveyone should agree, but the mantra that a minivan is always better for kids is not necessarily true. I loved being in the back seat - or, more rarely for the youngest of 4 - the shotgun position when my brother was driving one of the mildly sporty sedans he had at the time. I felt that cars were for moving, and I wanted to feel and enjoy the movement.


I kinda think we're talking about kids being in car seats anyway, so that wouldn't seem to make much of a difference

:dunno:


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

The Roadstergal said:


> Our family traded in a station wagon for a minivan when I was still of an age to be tossed in the back and taken on long trips - and I remember the first trip in the minivan. I really hated it. The station wagon was better. Something about the strange squishy feeling of not going anywhere and the inability to open the window and lean on the sill from where I was strapped in...
> 
> I'm not saying that eveyone should agree, but the mantra that a minivan is always better for kids is not necessarily true. I loved being in the back seat - or, more rarely for the youngest of 4 - the shotgun position when my brother was driving one of the mildly sporty sedans he had at the time. I felt that cars were for moving, and I wanted to feel and enjoy the movement.


no offense but aren't you like 40 ? ? ? Of course you don't like a minivan ... you drive a Miata ...

I'm talking about kids who use carseats and enjoy watching DVD movies while being driven around ... not a 40 yr old woman who is driving in her dad's minivan


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

atyclb said:


> I kinda think we're talking about kids being in car seats anyway, so that wouldn't seem to make much of a difference


Well, there are all kinds of families; ours spaced the kids so that the youngest hit booster seat age by the time the next one popped out. 



AF-RX8 said:


> no offense but aren't you like 40 ? ? ?


----------

