# DPF and DEF / SCR Removal



## GMaur335d (Oct 2, 2012)

Hi Guys,

In light of all of the conversations in regards to new exhausts and downpipes, I wanted to share that I am currently having my SCR removed and the DEF Injection portion of my car removed (both physically and in software). The work is being done by Jarek @ JR Auto in Oakville. 

I am already DPF free (hollowed out and functionally removed from tune for 4 months) and I think will be one of the first (in North America) to disable the DEF/SCR portion of the car. 

The car is being worked on for the next couple of weeks and I will keep you posted with the updates. 

Because of the nature of the continuous exhaust piping, this might be a good opportunity to build a custom down-pipe and piping to the rear mufflers. So that might be part of the fun! We will just have to wait and see what he comes up with. I'm happy with the way it sounds now, but if this is way to get more power (or the tune can be pushed further - lower EGTS etc.) I am all for it. 

I will keep you posted with any updates over the next week.

Feel free to let me know if you have any questions in the meantime.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

A question for Jarek as your project proceeds: does he expect to be able to reduce down time (on future installs) as he determines a course of action for this project? 2 weeks is major downtime, especially if someone has to drive from elsewhere for the work. 

If you don't mind, could you pm me a general idea of how much he is charging for the work? If that's too nosey, I apologize in advance.


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## GMaur335d (Oct 2, 2012)

Yes, of course. Unfortunately I am the first to get this done so it's a little bit of trial and error. At the moment he has removed the DEF Injection from the tune but has to make sure no CEL's come on afterwards. Sometimes they don't show themselves after several days of driving. I offered my car as I am out of town on business and can't use the it anyways. 
Once the parameters that need to be modified are figured out, it should be as normal as getting a tune. He works directly with Megaspeed to figure and implement those changes. 

The SCR removal is a different story as it depends on the owner and how far they want to go. But again, they can use my car as a testing ground to figure out the downpipe, hangers, bungs etc. Somebody's gotta be a guinea pig...and because the exhaust is completely different than the EU one no one has the specifics until they get in there and start playing around with different combinations. 
We are forging some new roads here !!


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

Does Canada or any of her Provinces have mandatory emissions testing like many US states do? If so,couldn't that cause problems for you down the road? Also,I'm almost certain that US Federal law prohibits the disabling of any factory installed emissions equipment.Is the same not true in Canada? If it is it seems that you could wind up in legal trouble at some point.

Just askin'....I'm not trying to start trouble here.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

GMaur335d said:


> Somebody's gotta be a guinea pig...and because the exhaust is completely different than the EU one no one has the specifics until they get in there and start playing around with different combinations.
> We are forging some new roads here !!


Amen Brother! Thank you for sharing your experience as this progresses - I'm really going to enjoy reading about the progress.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

GMaur335d said:


> I am already DPF free (hollowed out and functionally removed from tune for 4 months) and I think will be one of the first (in North America) to disable the DEF/SCR portion of the car.


What benefits have you seen from removing the DPF, e.g., any idea how restrictive it was to the exhaust flow? Shooting some DEF into the exhaust doesn't really provide any performance reduction, so I assume the benefits of removing the SCR system would be reducing backpressure by eliminating the related converter?

If will be interesting to see what performance improvements removal of the DPF and SCR systems will have on power and.or fuel economy. Are you dynoing it to document the impact of the changes?


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Penguin said:


> ...any idea how restrictive it was to the exhaust flow?


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6695813&postcount=25

This may be helpful to you. I measure about 2psi of DPF restriction at well above stock performance levels at max power output.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

TDIwyse said:


> This may be helpful to you.


Thanks!


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## Stussy109 (May 23, 2010)

Get ready for the bkack plume of smoke and smelling like an f350. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Bimmer App


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

like an OLD F350!:rofl: In CA if you did that it would be off the road in a heartbeat. Just sayin.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

The DPF removal has the long term benefit of less oil dilution from not having anymore DPF regens happening. It's not just a performance thing. The SCR removal doesn't at first glance seem to be anything about performace. I guess we wouldn't be paying $2.79/gallon for DEF (truck stop price). By the way if one assumes 3% DEF usage per gallon of diesel consumed, ths worksd out to about $0.08/gallon. In other words, when you pay $3.79/gallon for diesel (Houston price anyway) you are really paying 8 cents more per gallon when DEF usage is computed in. 

From a different perspective, I have wanted to install a receiver hitch but the damn tanks are in the way save for the invisihitch which is an investment of ~$700 (but it has a 2" receiver) or uhaul makes one for ~$200 that is supposed to be a true bolt in but only has the smaller receiver and the max tounge weight is 200 lb. Neither option has attracted me enough to take the plunge yet. @Axle, before you start up, I don't want to cut my bumper cover like you had to. Your hitch is a bad MF'r though. I can say that as my initials are MF


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

LOL Cuda I know I had to cut a little piece of the bottom bumper but its not noticeable since its in the lower part and be ONLY seen if you get under the car. But I dont regret it I have the 2" part and load both my mountain bikes(hers and mines) and go off to the beach  to see the babes oops i mean the beach scenary LOL!!!


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## subdude (Apr 11, 2013)

Hey I am new to the forum but not diesels. I own an '11 F250 6.7L and just purchased a '10 X5 35d. How much oil dilution is typical in the 3.0L? I have had oil tested in my '11 twice and both times fuel concentration was 1.0%. I have read that for the 6.7L that concentrations below 7% are acceptable.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

subdude said:


> Hey I am new to the forum but not diesels. I own an '11 F250 6.7L and just purchased a '10 X5 35d. How much oil dilution is typical in the 3.0L? I have had oil tested in my '11 twice and both times fuel concentration was 1.0%. I have read that for the 6.7L that concentrations below 7% are acceptable.


Do a Google on:

oil analysis diesel fuel dilution limits

And a lot of interesting stuff will pop-up.

My understanding has been that 4-5% is roughly the limit before the dilution is enough to cause the oil viscosity to go out of spec. Of course, there are other issues, such as increased oxidation, associated with fuel dilution, so less is always better, but most oil analysis places I've used don't seem to flag it until it gets to the 4-5% region.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

subdude said:


> Hey I am new to the forum but not diesels. I own an '11 F250 6.7L and just purchased a '10 X5 35d. How much oil dilution is typical in the 3.0L? I have had oil tested in my '11 twice and both times fuel concentration was 1.0%. I have read that for the 6.7L that concentrations below 7% are acceptable.


Our Blackstone labs reports list the fuel dilution limits at less than 2%. All the ones I've seen (even at 10K miles or so) are less than that.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Maur keep us posted the exhaust system Im interested in w DPF removal


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

subdude said:


> Hey I am new to the forum but not diesels. I own an '11 F250 6.7L and just purchased a '10 X5 35d. How much oil dilution is typical in the 3.0L? I have had oil tested in my '11 twice and both times fuel concentration was 1.0%. I have read that for the 6.7L that concentrations below 7% are acceptable.


Some 335d UOA's in this thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=537349


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

Any updates on the DPF removal yet?


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

subdude said:


> Hey I am new to the forum but not diesels. I own an '11 F250 6.7L and just purchased a '10 X5 35d. How much oil dilution is typical in the 3.0L? I have had oil tested in my '11 twice and both times fuel concentration was 1.0%. I have read that for the 6.7L that concentrations below 7% are acceptable.


Subdude, in the My Oil Analysis thread you can find some data we received from Blackstone labs on BMW Diesels. I don't recall seeing anyone with a fuel dilution problem and I would not expect it would be given the design of our fuel injection system. I think the risk of fuel mixing with the lube oil is quite low.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Be careful if you live in an area with biodiesel blends. Bio changes the equation in regards to fuel dilution, and oil change intervals.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

62Lincoln said:


> Be careful if you live in an area with biodiesel blends. Bio changes the equation in regards to fuel dilution, and oil change intervals.


As a data point on this issue: My UOA's were done with fuel primarily from the local Sinclair truck stop I fill up at ~95% of the time using between 5-20% biodiesel (you don't know exactly what % blend you're getting).

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6406054&postcount=20

No issues with oil dilution.


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## GMaur335d (Oct 2, 2012)

UPDATE - I now have the DEF Injection removed the from the car in software and the Injector and sensors all un-hooked. 
The DEF tank has now been emptied and I have driven for about 1-2K without it. 
I also had the tune dialled up a bit so I get a tad bit of smoke a WOT, but nothing with anything less. 
We haven't had a chance to remove the SCR / DPF housing physically as the piping is odd. All of the links between the DPF and SCR are OVAL in shape, so it's not easy to just cut it out.
What we have been considering doing is creating a new down-pipe that goes in place of the DPF (eliminates Pre-cat) and goes all the way to muffler split after the SCR.
I do like how quiet the car is now, but Megaspeed has been seeing results of 350+HP and 550+TQ with the EU spec car so I'm tempted to try for that with the SCR and DPF!
In any case, something for the near future ..maybe.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Doesn't it make sense to get rid of the EGR as well? That isn't doing our engine any favors.:yikes:

I can imagine if it is finely tuned and working it accomplishes its goal of NOX reduction, but one miscue and you are sucking in your exhaust fumes in the intake once again.:violent:

These folks with intake manifold build up issues must be from an EGR problem.:eeps:

If I end up keeping my car past the 100k mark, I'll seriously be looking to eliminate the EGR and DEF. These seem to be the root of all evil in these cars.


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## GMaur335d (Oct 2, 2012)

I agree that this is the problem.
I have bee running EGR deleted from the tune for quite a while now.
In fact - it was one of the first things I did!


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

GMaur335d said:


> I agree that this is the problem.
> I have bee running EGR deleted from the tune for quite a while now.
> In fact - it was one of the first things I did!


Did you bore it out or replace the EGR with a bypass?:dunno:


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## GMaur335d (Oct 2, 2012)

No - it's just "tuned out".
The ECU doesn't open the EGR valve to let re-circultated air into the engine - it's 100% intake air. 
The physical unit itself is still stock.


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

GMaur335d said:


> No - it's just "tuned out".
> The ECU doesn't open the EGR valve to let re-circultated air into the engine - it's 100% intake air.
> The physical unit itself is still stock.


WOW!!! How did you do that? Is there a DIY or something we can follow. I remember how my EGR used to foul up on my 90's Mercedes 250D.


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## GMaur335d (Oct 2, 2012)

Sorry - it was part of my tune done by JR Auto.
I don't think there is DIY like some of the older cars...


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

GMaur335d said:


> UPDATE - I now have the DEF Injection removed the from the car in software and the Injector and sensors all un-hooked.
> The DEF tank has now been emptied and I have driven for about 1-2K without it.
> I also had the tune dialled up a bit so I get a tad bit of smoke a WOT, but nothing with anything less.
> We haven't had a chance to remove the SCR / DPF housing physically as the piping is odd. All of the links between the DPF and SCR are OVAL in shape, so it's not easy to just cut it out.
> ...


Econtune already has a pipe fabbed for this expressed purpose, FYI. Might be something to look into.


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## GMaur335d (Oct 2, 2012)

Only for EU cars tho right?

The US exhaust system is quite a bit different from what I have heard. 

Maybe now that it's more like the EU version (No SCR) it will be easier??


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm quite sure that a capable fabricator could modify an Ecotune pipe to have the same inlet/outlet parameters (shape and location that is) as our US spec DPF cannister. Is the Ecotune part stainless steel? Just need someone patient with a decent TIG welder and other fabrication equipment. From the other thread, a Florida road trip might be worth pondering. Perhaps in another year this capability (DPF decoding) will work its way to the gulf coast. 

So the ultimate emission removal mod is 
a) closing the EGR permanently (coding it off), 
b) DFP removal with fabbed pipe, and 
c) SCR removal and pipe replacement. 

Am i missing something or is the cat delete happening too? Perhaps this was adressed in an old thread where Csnns (i likely butchered his alias) had a long pipe assy made by a muffler shop.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

If not mistaken ECOTUNE had sent me an email and they wanted a US DPF so that they could do a downpipe for us and that was a while ago, Stugots if you have yours available 3d scan it and send it to ECOTUNE.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Axel61 said:


> If not mistaken ECOTUNE had sent me an email and they wanted a US DPF so that they could do a downpipe for us and that was a while ago, Stugots if you have yours available 3d scan it and send it to ECOTUNE.


I've been talking to both Stan and Mark (Ecotune and Redline, respectively).

The US DPF and the UK DPF are different. The sensors are in different locations, so the Ecotune downpipe would require some changes to it. My DPF is still attached to the car atm, so I'm unable to send it, but I'm still working out some logistics with them.



BB_cuda said:


> So the ultimate emission removal mod is
> a) closing the EGR permanently (coding it off),
> b) DFP removal with fabbed pipe, and
> c) SCR removal and pipe replacement.
> ...


In talking to Ecotune, the SCR cat is suggested to remain intact, as it is a high flow cat, and assists in backpressure, as well as more stable boost pressure for tuning purposes. Mine still remains, although it's empty now.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

great Stugots if you can get someone to do a 3d scan then they ecotune can work it from there, thats how WAGNER did for the IC although they did in their own house


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

OK, I think a trip to Canada is worth it. How do I get in touch with JR Auto?


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## Sylvan Lake V35 (Nov 18, 2012)

How has this been going, any codes or errors from removing urea injection?


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

IMO a plug and play solution to this, like an O2 sim, would be way better than an ECU tune. Once you tune the ECU to ignore the DPF pressure feedback you cant really put the DPF back on or it will never go into regen. It should be pretty easy to wire up a simulator that just constantly shows the equivalent of a 2 PSI difference so the ECU thinks there is a clean DPF still in the system but it wont go into regen. I dont really care about the smoke/sound portion of this, but if I want to keep this car for over 100k it sounds like the DPF might have to be replaced at some point, at least according to some of the reviews I have seen out of Europe. I dont really want to end up replacing a $2000 part that also is a power and economy restriction, but I also dont want to be stuck with an ECU that will kill the DPF in case I need to put it back on for emissions or to sell the car. I cant imagine that a flash is the only way to take care of this.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

kakalika said:


> OK, I think a trip to Canada is worth it. How do I get in touch with JR Auto?


Link


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

GreekboyD said:


> Link


Thanks. :thumbup:


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

kakalika said:


> Thanks. :thumbup:


No problem. I plan on contacting Jarek very soon.


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## stoked335d (Jan 4, 2010)

Someone please explain to me how you would pass the State inspection and emissions test with this modification?


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

stoked335d said:


> Someone please explain to me how you would pass the State inspection and emissions test with this modification?


Do you an inspection for Diesel cars in NJ? In GA, there is an inspection for gasoline powered cars but none for diesel.


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## FredoinSF (Nov 29, 2009)

We have yearly inspections for all vehicles where my cars are registered. I assume this would be a fail, right?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

FredoinSF said:


> We have yearly inspections for all vehicles where my cars are registered. I assume this would be a fail, right?
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Yes.

SCR DPF removal are for the @sshats who think they know better. Sorry but I'm going to call it like it is. People who remove emissions system on their personal vehicles reek of selfishness and irresponsibility. There's absolutely zero justification.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

stoked335d said:


> Someone please explain to me how you would pass the State inspection and emissions test with this modification?


You would pass after you paid off the technician who performed the test. Seems very common in California for example.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Yes.
> 
> SCR DPF removal are for the @sshats who think they know better. Sorry but I'm going to call it like it is. People who remove emissions system on their personal vehicles reek of selfishness and irresponsibility. There's absolutely zero justification.


Ok I respect your opinion but as soon as I get my 50k over its gone as in 3/4 of the world. I careless

Sent from my SPH-L710 using BimmerApp mobile app


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Yes.
> 
> SCR DPF removal are for the @sshats who think they know better. Sorry but I'm going to call it like it is. People who remove emissions system on their personal vehicles * reek of selfishness *and irresponsibility. There's absolutely zero justification.





Axel61 said:


> Ok I respect your opinion but as soon as I get my 50k over its gone as in 3/4 of the world. *I careless*
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using BimmerApp mobile app


I think you are proving his point.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

i cant changed other people's politically correct responses cause thats me let him go huge a tree i dont hug any i plant them, so i will be selfish LOL


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Axel61 said:


> i cant changed other people's politically correct responses cause thats me let him go huge a tree i dont hug any i plant them, so i will be selfish LOL


As long as the exhaust is routed into the cabin and you get the cancer caused by the particulates, it's fine with me.

And I DO NOT like your taking this lightly; cancer and lung function is not a laughing item.:thumbdwn:


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

the only time exhaust will ever enter any cabin is when there is a LEAk in the exhaust system, otherwise cancer can be caught even eating PUNTANG just ask Michael Douglas the actor LOL jajajajajja and yes cancer is NO JOKE my mother passed away in part due to cancer. that said even if you dont smoke drink or whatever you maybe prone to cancer or any other issues

Btw floyd don't worry I don't like you taking the pipe in your cabin either lol. So you won't breathe the cancerous fumes lol


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Axel61 said:


> Btw floyd don't worry I don't like you taking the pipe in your cabin either lol. So you won't breathe the cancerous fumes lol


So you admit don't mind causing cancer to the people living along the streets you drive on.

Since I'm going to leave my emissions controls alone, I won't be causing cancer, to anyone. Sorry that you don't care for others.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Obviously as u can see no skin off my back u be the judge and besides why beat on a dead horse issue


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

wow, this thread went into left field.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

yes indeed amigo mark people want to always put in their 2 cents , if they dont like the thread dont write or comment on it, i for one if i dont like the thread I dont comment or even go into it, its a waste of my time but, i guess other peoples perception are differnet oh welll!!!


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

Given that the large number of our D's DPF/SCR/DEF systems will not make it past 100K miles without at least 1 $1,000+ repair, the deletion of the stupid CARB mandated crap on our diesels is the only way to own one of these vehicles in a cost effective manner past 100,000 miles!


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

magbarn said:


> Given that the large number of our D's DPF/SCR/DEF systems will not make it past 100K miles without at least 1 $1,000+ repair, the deletion of the stupid CARB mandated crap on our diesels is the only way to own one of these vehicles in a cost effective manner past 100,000 miles!


Based on what? Your gut? Is the DPF replacement interval that much any different than a catalytic converter?


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

This thread has turned into a debate as to whether we should do anything to modify our emissions equipment or not. With all due respect, the OP was not trying to communicate his clean air political opinion. The last 10 or so entries has gotten fairly contentious and in my opinion shut down the earlier friendly dialogue. In my experience, I have never had to purchase a replacement catalytic converter for a gasoline burning vehicle. I am not the typical "buy it and trade it in 4 yrs later" guy. I have a little car pushing 209,000 miles that still has a properly functioning cat. Girlfriend has a Mustang pushing 180,000 miles with twin cats that are still doing fine as well. All of this stated, I understand the role of a DPF is uniquely different than a cat. It is physically filtering particulate and subsequently becomes a burn off chamber for that filtered matter. A cat is a gas scrubber so it inheritly should last longer (unless a bonehead ran leaded fuel in it which can't be purchased any longer). I don't see a DPF comparison to a cat replacement interval as being pertinent. They are different beasts.

Intellectual disagreements aside, I hope we can taper off the earlier animosity. Before you 2 or 3 guys rip me to shreads, just consider we are here to help each other and are allowed to disagree without getting personal. I hope the much earlier conversation can start again without negativity damping things out.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

BB_cuda said:


> ...Intellectual disagreements aside, I hope we can taper off the earlier animosity. Before you 2 or 3 guys rip me to shreads, just consider we are here to help each other and are allowed to disagree without getting personal. I hope the much earlier conversation can start again without negativity damping things out.


An entirely reasonable and forum-friendly posting and thoughts.

I personally believe that the hopes of people opting for DPF/SCR delete (and EGR) are overblown. There has been some data provided that indicates that a DPF delete isn't going to gain much. Deleting the SCR probably isn't going to gain much if any HP, although you may lose some weight in DEF, and certainly complexity and repair costs. If you're looking for "massive" HP/TQ gains, I believe you're going to be disappointed. Mileage gains are going to be small but measurable.

Let's be clear: a few people doing this isn't going to cause major pollution problems. But let's be equally clear: you're being selfish and short sighted because YOUR ACTIONS do have an effect on others. I think the people who have posted opposition to this have made our point about this fact; let's not continue to piss our brother diesel-heads off. And invective is not a constructive use of posting bandwidth.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Frankly speaking I dont BELIEVE that one or two cars w/o DPF will kill the world. Hello amigos, you have million cars right next to you and your still breathing their exhaust fumes if only one diesel in Puerto Rico and maybe 4 or 5 in the US do it, will they cause me to rot in hell, nop!!! So Floyd as much as i appreciate you please maintain yourself in the Northwest with SASQUATCH!! Let us be, i respect you want to be Mr MotherNature Friendly and I dont condone you but DONT put words in our way of thinking, you sound like a catholic Priest of the past LOL!!!!!!


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

Axel61 said:


> Frankly speaking I dont BELIEVE that one or two cars w/o DPF will kill the world. Hello amigos, you have million cars right next to you and your still breathing their exhaust fumes if only one diesel in Puerto Rico and maybe 4 or 5 in the US do it, will they cause me to rot in hell, nop!!! So Floyd as much as i appreciate you please maintain yourself in the Northwest with SASQUATCH!! Let us be, i respect you want to be Mr MotherNature Friendly and I dont condone you but DONT put words in our way of thinking, you sound like a catholic Priest of the past LOL!!!!!!


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

I'd be real interested to see this discussion going on at a BMW CCA monthly social, face-to-face, instead of in the usual anonymity of the internet. Social etiquette seems to break down a bit on the net, although I must say this Diesel forum is largely much better than most.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Only talking tech from this point on hopefully. If our EGR were cleaner in content [no soot in it], I would not have a big problem leaving it in its current functioning config. I notice the inlet to the EGR system is coming DIRECTLY off of the exhaust manifold. Why OWE WHY would it not feed back to EGR post DPF? This would seem to have much less soot coming into our intake from EGR injection. I'm not so much trying to learn of modifying our emissions systems for power but rather letting the engine stay in a good and healthy state and avoiding the intake clean outs we enevidably are having to do.

Am I wrong about the EGR tract input being pre rather than post DPF? I understand using EGR reduces available oxygen and thus cools off the exhaust temps. Cooler exhaust produces less NOx. I'm guessing the counter point would be turning EGR off would cause a higher consumption of DEF trying to scrub it off there.


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## lpcapital (Mar 1, 2007)

Actually, that is the difference between low and high pressure EGR: the 335d only has the HP, while the X5 35d has both. I'm not familiar with the N57 configuration.

The HP is called so because it takes gas an recirculate them into the pressure side, post turbo & IC side, of the intake. Therefore it needs to take the gasses from the pressure side of the exhaust which is the pre-turbo. The particulate filter is after the turbo, and actually the LP EGR takes exhaust from after the DPF and injects them before the turbo and before the IC. In these case you're dealing with filtered exhaust. That's why conjunctures are made that the X5 35d is less susceptible to carbon buildup since a great deal of EGR is done on the LP side.

Here's a useful link with a diagram: http://www.sttemtec.com/en/egr/egr.php

However, I think there are limitation in ability to use only a LP EGR. In both EGR you're using pressure differentials and I suspect that under certain condition, such as immediately after a request of load and right before the turbo spools up, a LP EGR might not be able to deliver enough volume to properly reduce NOx, particularly in a fixed geometry turbo. In a variable geometry turbo you're able to drive backpressure and turbo spool up so more effectively manage pressure differentials between intake and exhaust.

The bottom line is that there's certain situation where the pressure differential is more favorable for a LP EGR and others where is more favorable to HP EGR and that's what drive which one is or is active to ensure gasses flow the correct way (i.e. from the exhaust side to the intake side)


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

if you are seriously concerned that even several thousand 335ds across the US with DPF delete are going to significantly add to the cancer risk, the fact that there are millions of questionably tuned, unfiltered, high load semi engines at 10+ liters puffing away must scare the cancer right out of you, not to mention that 70s mercedes next to you that is puffing black smoke while just sitting at a stoplight


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

touche hooper well said!!


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

lpcapital said:


> Actually, that is the difference between low and high pressure EGR: the 335d only has the HP, while the X5 35d has both. I'm not familiar with the N57 configuration.
> 
> The HP is called so because it takes gas an recirculate them into the pressure side, post turbo & IC side, of the intake. Therefore it needs to take the gasses from the pressure side of the exhaust which is the pre-turbo. The particulate filter is after the turbo, and actually the LP EGR takes exhaust from after the DPF and injects them before the turbo and before the IC. In these case you're dealing with filtered exhaust. That's why conjunctures are made that the X5 35d is less susceptible to carbon buildup since a great deal of EGR is done on the LP side.
> 
> ...


Thanks LP. I had heard people here talking about LP and HP EGRs. Frankly, i didn't have a clue what was going on until you explained the above. The X5 being a heavier vehicle likely produces more "stuff" at the exhaust, Perhaps, BMW engineers realized this and tried to find a way to have the X5's EGR tract to be cleaner.

Now, i will be curious what they do with the heavier 5 series with the N57 engine with regard to the EGR system design.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Pasted in from LP's link.
================
Low pressure EGR technology has great potential for reducing emissions of NOx from diesel engines.

There are two distinctively different types of EGR available. The, so called, High-Pressure EGR (Fig. 2) re-circulates exhaust between the two high pressure points - exhaust manifold and inlet manifold (downstream of an intercooler). The Low-Pressure EGR (Fig. 3) re-circulates exhaust between the two low pressure points - exhaust system tail pipe (downstream of a PM filter) and turbocharger inlet (downstream of an air filter).

When part of the exhaust gases is re-circulated to the intake air the oxygen content is decreased and the heat capacity is increased resulting in lower peak combustion temperature and less nitrogen monoxide formation.

Decrease in oxygen content causes increase in the amount of PM produced. Therefore, it is essential to control EGR rate at various engine operating conditions.

The differential pressure across the EGR line on a high-pressure EGR system is limited and achieving sufficient EGR flow rates is a challenge. As such, required differential pressures must be created artificially by *altering the efficiency of a turbocharger or by introducing other sub systems.*

The problem with achiving sufficient EGR flow rates does not exists on a low-pressure EGR system as other means of achieving required EGR rate are available without de-rating efficiency of a turbocharger.* High-pressure EGR re-circulates unfiltered exhaust causing contamination of the engine itself and lubricating oil with soot. Contrarily, the low-pressure EGR re-circulates particulate matter free exhaust taken from downstream of the PM filter. *


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Low pressure seems like the way to go, recirculating soot into the engine just seems like an obviously terrible idea


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

can anyone then fabricate or produce a catch can for this yes or no?


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Axel61 said:


> can anyone then fabricate or produce a catch can for this yes or no?


catch can for the EGR or PCV? PCV wouldnt be too difficult, there is a small section where you could make connections and not deal with the plastic connectors I believe. EGR would be a lot more difficult since it would need to deal with a lot of heat, make connections in tight places, and not have excessive pressure drop. EGR delete oughta be a heck of a lot easier.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Hoooper said:


> if you are seriously concerned that even several thousand 335ds across the US with DPF delete are going to significantly add to the cancer risk, the fact that there are millions of questionably tuned, unfiltered, high load semi engines at 10+ liters puffing away must scare the cancer right out of you, not to mention that 70s mercedes next to you that is puffing black smoke while just sitting at a stoplight


They drive me nuts as well. Same goes for all the catless cars on the road. About a month ago I drove up on a diesel pickup where they removed all pollution controls and fabricated two vertical stacks behind the cab. The driver hit the exhaust and of course out came plumes of soot which then blew into a flea market full of people. I guess that driver really thought he was hot sh!t.

BTW I have no problems emissions deletes on race cars.


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## Philm35 (Aug 19, 2010)

Cough! Cough!


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Hooper in the e 90 post we are gathering info and I will have Turbo eddie make one for us, DOC from Germany has ordered a catch can for a 335i and is doing his stuff in Germany, call sign for me over htere is Puerto Rican 335d


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

Watching this thread with interest.


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

Looks like Malone tuning can do DPF deletes on our cars right here in the US. Plus tune for more power etc. Anyone here heard of, or dealt with them?

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.253386888011054.80228.115095405173537&type=1


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## Hivolts (Nov 4, 2013)

*Mods???*



BB_cuda said:


> wow, this thread went into left field.


I agree...I was learning about our exhaust systems and now I feel ashamed to even read this thread as I'm causing everyone cancer. Does this site have Mods and where are they? I'm fairly new here, but owned a TDI before my 335d and own a Powerstroke. I can assure you that it breathe through clean empty pipes :thumbup:. And as for those that think tampering with the exhaust system is trashing the environment, my truck gets 30% better fuel economy than a stock truck.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

kakalika said:


> Looks like Malone tuning can do DPF deletes on our cars right here in the US. Plus tune for more power etc. Anyone here heard of, or dealt with them?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.253386888011054.80228.115095405173537&type=1


Haven't heard of them but clicked on their dealer and noticed that these guys are a 10 minute drive from me:

*K&H	416-266-7777 3596 St Clair Ave E Unit #2 Toronto*


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

GreekboyD said:


> Haven't heard of them but clicked on their dealer and noticed that these guys are a 10 minute drive from me:
> 
> *K&H	416-266-7777 3596 St Clair Ave E Unit #2 Toronto*


Yes I checked their web site. They seem to have dealers all over the place. I just wonder if all their dealers have the required experience. Perhaps you can check on the one close to you if you have some time and post here.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

kakalika said:


> Yes I checked their web site. They seem to have dealers all over the place. I just wonder if all their dealers have the required experience. Perhaps you can check on the one close to you if you have some time and post here.


I'm calling to see if they're open tomorrow. If so, I'll go in to talk to them in person.


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## Blackfly (Nov 10, 2010)

*Abc*

Q


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

GreekboyD said:


> I'm calling to see if they're open tomorrow. If so, I'll go in to talk to them in person.


Greek, what did you find out?


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

I did manage to contact them. I was told that they only do VW and Audi TDI's at the present time, even though they state on their facebook that they do BMW. They said that they had not done a BMW yet. :dunno:


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

Copied from their facebook page:

Proper DPF and EGR deletion for 2009+ VW TDI, Mercedes, BMW, etc.

Some tuners may be able to simply block fault codes from deleting the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). Some may even succeed in reducing the DPF regeneration that otherwise causes a large puff of white or grey smoke at least once a week. Properly deleting DPF is however much more involved. The majority of tuners fail to completely disable post-injection, which is designed to assist DPF regeneration. Post-injected fuel hits the cylinder wall and then is washed into the oil sump by piston rings. The fuel is vaporized from oil and then consumed by the engine via the crank vent. This is normal as long as each DPF regeneration is far enough apart.

An improper DPF delete file can inadvertently increase the frequency of post-injection, which results in significantly more fuel contamination in oil. The excess fuel vapor is sucked into the intake via CCV and it can cause a fatal engine run-away condition! Engine damage has not been observed yet, but through research and collaboration with automakers, we found that this risk exists.

Fully turning off post-injection also ensures optimal fuel economy. Our DPF delete clients have reported a 4-6 MPG gain with our tune! We may see an additional 1-2 MPG soon with our new tuning tricks soon.

The easiest or least expensive solution to delete DPF is to gut out the DPF canister. However, the stock downpipe and exhaust flapper are still somewhat restrictive. The flapper is also a common failure item and a completely unnecessary item if the DPF is removed. The performance and fuel economy from a straight-through exhaust system is unmatched. At the time of this writing, we may be exclusive in achieving a fault-code-free straight exhaust tune.

The EGR can also be blocked or deleted with no adverse effects to the DPF system.

We set the bar high for economy, longevity, and performance.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

maybe they just need a ginny pig?


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

kaka be their guinea pig Im going to be one of RENNtech's guinea pig on DPF Removal we are just waiting for the downpipe from Ecotune that TDi worked out with them


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## kakalika (Mar 12, 2006)

Axel61 said:


> kaka be their guinea pig Im going to be one of RENNtech's guinea pig on DPF Removal we are just waiting for the downpipe from Ecotune that TDi worked out with them


I can't be a guinea pig. They don't, or can't do our cars yet.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

There's been a lot of progress with Ecotune and the DPF and DEF/SCR removal, as well as complete EGR/EGR cooler removal. Lots of info posted on the other popular 335d forum on a thread Axle61 started (he goes by a different name over there though).


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## sinisaaas (Jan 19, 2007)

Link? 

Sent from my LG-D801 using BimmerApp mobile app


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

sinisaaas said:


> Link?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using BimmerApp mobile app


http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904968

It's a long one ...


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## Hivolts (Nov 4, 2013)

*DEF vs. Diesel Fuel*



kakalika said:


> Copied from their facebook page:
> 
> Proper DPF and EGR deletion for 2009+ VW TDI, Mercedes, BMW, etc.
> 
> ...


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Hivolts said:


> kakalika said:
> 
> 
> > I know that the new TDI's use the diesel fuel to clean the DPF by burning it out. They do not use DEF fluid. Since our cars use DEF, do they still spray fuel into the DPF?
> ...


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Ok amigos Im back and i got some not so good news. ECOTUNE has contacted me and i have the emails to prove it, there ARE NOT willing to sell the downpipe ALONE!! but as a pkg deal, TDi has informed that he cannot help me or I believe anyone else to this matter,but, I strongly beleive if he puts some input we can get it w/o their programming. that said here is a copy of the emails recieved and sent yesterday:

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® 3

_Its a shame but frankly all I want is the downpipe as far as liability your product is for off road here in the USA so you cant say its a liability. I have a tuner RENNtech that will do my mapping therefore you will be out of the picture also if its pkg deal as u say many ovehere hv our tunes either JB Evolve or RENNtech. So I suggest you reconsider our offer this, email will be posted on BMW 335d sites. Gracias_

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® 3

-------- Original message --------
From: Campbell Booth <[email protected]> 
Date:01/15/2014 10:42 (GMT-04:00) 
To: 'axelhernandez61' <[email protected]> 
Subject: RE: Ecotune Enquiry

_Hi Axel,

For liability reasons both in the UK and US our downpipes will only be available as part of a package including our software.

As you may be aware it is imperative to realign the turbo charger geometry to the reduced exhaust back pressure found when removing a DPF.

We have spend 100s of hours dyno development ensuring that our turbocharger calibrations are perfectly mated to our downpipes.

This is due to a large volume of sales to mainland Europe where customers will use high rpms in long gears when travelling on non speed restricted carriageways. This scenario may result in turbo charger over speed due to relatively weak turbocharger waste gates. The result broken exhaust wheel tips and failed turbochargers.

Our pipes and software are available directly from us or through our approve US agents.

Best wishes,

Campbell._


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Heres their esponse today and my response:

_Hi Axel,

I am sorry your feel this way.

Our liability does not end at the roadside on your turbochargers.

I have referred your concerns to our Technical Director who, I believe, will be replying to your concerns publically.

Best wishes,

Campbell_

Here's my response to them:

_Thank you for your response but as you will see the thread i started(17 pages now and counting) some people are not to happy with your response in this forum I will see what the other forum says.

Here's the link: _http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904968


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Ecotune's response on e90post:

_Hi Guys,

Our geographical location has no bearing on our customer service. We pride ourselves very much on service and satisfaction.

We will not simply respond to the forceful demands of one customer who in reality is actually only interested in his own car and not the majority of x35d drivers.

The engine management system on this car is not new, and the majority of the R&D time is spent years in advance on a hoard of other BMW diesels to gather the information required to make the correct adjustments therein.

I own a x35d car, I have done for years now and believe that in Europe our product and performance results cannot be matched. This is not just due to having a unique DPF removal solution but in fact due to the countless hours of study and calculations to ensure a perfect result.

The main difference between the US and the EU version of this car is the generation of engine management system on the US vehicles is later and of course the emission controlling components are more restrictive.

The initial prototype downpipe was built very quickly so that we could install it on the flow bench and based upon the data acquired some simple math permitted us to recalibrate the turbocharger duty cycle maps and how the vehicle scales them relative to exhaust gas backpressure.

Naturally a large amount of data acquired from R&D on the EU models was transferable to the US vehicles with consideration made to injection timing due to different cetane ratings of the fuel where you are located.

Now, here is our reason for making this part exclusive to Ecotune software customers....

Install this downpipe onto your car without the correct software adjustments and you have a turbocharger that is going to go supersonic and damage the compressor wheels. We know this to be the case as we deliberately damaged a few turbochargers during R&D here in the UK to ensure we were 100% aware of the hardware limitations.

This information was used to develop our x35d Stage 3 kit which has revised turbochargers.

A responsible establishment should not supply a part that is known to cause damage to a customers vehicle. A class action lawsuit from a group of angry forum members is simply not something we would be willing be part of.

We have a loyal customer base in the UK and rest of the EU and i'm confident once customers experience our products and results that we will have similar confidence from the USA marketplace.

I would be happy to respond to any questions.

Stan Ward
Technical Director
Ecotune UK Ltd
[email protected]_

My response on the same post:

_Stan good response BUT as you have read my emails I have my own tuner therefore I am NOT going to do ANy class action suit agianst you specifically on a part that by all means can be considered an aftermarket part that will fall under the OFF ROAD criteria, that said, can YOU promulgate your part as EPA/CARB certified. I think not therefore, it falls as OFF ROAD use only and Im willing to sign a paper for it . I respect your plight and respect what you have done in EUROPE only part and not the USA part. My tuner is going to figure out the parameters for me.

BTW good try on the my supposedly selfish side as you will see on ALL my blogs I take interest and give positive feedbacks to ALL members of both forums(BTW i have mentioned you positively on EURO customers to look you up), trying to bestowe me makes you seem more selfish as you state of me. It is my vehicle and figure out, if I try to sue you on an aftermarket OFF ROAD use part. Hello amigo i believe you're incorrect on this_


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Here's their response today from the head HONCHO Stan:

_Hi Axel,

Perhaps you forget that whilst you are dealing with a company it is a family business and as such we are all very passionate about it.

If forum members feel we are being selfish then this is unfortunate.

Naturally we could sell many more parts if we simply opened the gates, this would be selfish?

I think you are missing the point. The liability doesn't lie on the EPA front as our part can be marked for motorsport use, the fact is that without the correct calibration you can damage your car and I want no part in that.

I do not believe that the information to make the correct adjustments is openly available to any other firmware calibrators on this ecu at present.

It is our development and whilst we have seen attempts at achieving the same results, to my knowledge our solution has remained in-house and has not been leaked.

Kindest regards,

Stan _

Here's my response in a better manner:

_Stan again I come to you in response to this, I firmly beleive you have reputable company and more so a family business and thats GREAT, but, as a man of my word I will refrain of stating the word SELFISHNESS part and let the readers of both forums state their own agendas. The reason of stating such word is not because you would and i quote you "Naturally we could sell many more parts if we simply opened the gates, this would be selfish?"

Yes, you can sell many parts but I think you're also missing the point , you as an aftermarket resource have come to our plight for a downpipe but your holding that part from being sold individually sounds lets say personal, WE customers know what we are getting in return a better enhancing product for our vehicles and YES we know the risk entailed. As i stated again and again some of us have TUNERS that are willing to elaborate on your product. YOU are the ONLY tuner to come up with such product for our cars.

Lets make a poll here if you , lets have our readers make a poll here and see who would like it in a package or who wants for himself i believe it will be a close tie. OUR tuners are as reputable as you are, Activeworks sells downpipes for 335i and never seen them require their MAPPING. maybe you should think outside the box and I believe our readers will not denigrate you as one has done.

I have had terrible experiences with other (sorry) British Tuners with an exhaust system that SUPPOSEDLY was stainless steel made and it rotted!! Does not make you the same category but lets start this with a positive note OFFER the downpipe in both packages or individually and a cost that will cater everyone. Lets us know, your turn to respond amigo!!

P.D. I quote you again "The liability doesn't lie on the EPA front as our part can be marked for motorsport use, the fact is that without the correct calibration you can damage your car and I want no part in that."

My friend for you to pass EPA/CARB regs on your part would put a DENT in your pocket admit for one this part is for OFF ROAD USE Only. Therefore, again we CANNOT sue you_


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

here we go AGAIN!! his hopefully final response i got to work:

_A 335i petrol car has no deliberate variable backpressure, the engines or engine management systems are not comparable here.

I hear you Axel but for now our decision has been made, we would be delighted to have you onboard as a customer should you at some point desire the services of Ecotune, I can assure you that this is nothing personal.

In business it is impossible to meet the needs of all clients when we adhere to certain business practices.

If anyone else has any other questions regarding the Ecotune package we would of course be delighted to assist.

Best wishes,

Stan _

Here's my response as usual:

_Stan I used the 335i as an example of the practices used in the USA for sales and not to equate it against to different engines ,again you miss the point.

Unfortunately, your criteria is different than some of us seek. No , I believe I should buy the downpipe itself and not your program which I beleive has NOT been TESTED on a US Version 335d and only a EURO DDE and not the encrypted US version DDE.

And, I quote you again "In business it is impossible to meet the needs of all clients when we adhere to certain business practices."

Your faltering here my friend again. Your business practice is catered to your family owned business, may i ask do you make your clients sign a waiver for your products? i dont think so otherwise it would be published in your website and a disclosure ensued in it.

I must admit you're looking very good on this but I will let everyone make his own judgement on your business practices, Ok BTW do you have a warranty on this also?

Rest my case amigo_


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

Axel61 said:


> here we go AGAIN!! his hopefully final response i got to work:
> 
> _A 335i petrol car has no deliberate variable backpressure, the engines or engine management systems are not comparable here.
> 
> ...


Axel, I understand your position, but I think his position is quite reasonable as a business man. Unfortunately his position doesn't match your needs. Businesses often make decisions that frustrate their potential or erstwhile customers.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

I do understand , he does not want to understand that some of us have already tuners and his PROGRAM is not tested with the US Version 335d DDeE thats necrypted!!


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

Axel61 said:


> I do understand , he does not want to understand that some of us have already tuners and his PROGRAM is not tested with the US Version 335d DDeE thats necrypted!!


I guess I will betray my ignorance and say I thought TDIWyse had the Ecotune.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Tdi gave them his dpf to scan I believe heas hos own tune but I migght be wrong


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Axel61 said:


> I do understand , he does not want to understand that some of us have already tuners and his PROGRAM is not tested with the US Version 335d DDeE thats necrypted!!


to be honest, that not how it reads on e90. it reads more like you have a tune already, so you dont want to switch out the tune for the ecotune + downpipe. If they really do map the tune to the downpipe his position makes sense. If they just sell the downpipe and you use the renntech tune, if your turbos give out you would most likely be inclined to blame it on the downpipe since youve had your tune without issues already. For a product that likely has thin full life margins, they cant afford the bad press of one person's bad experience.

If you *really* must have the downpipe and dont want the tune youre going to have to give in and buy the downpipe/tune and then get reflashed back to renntech.



Axel61 said:


> Tdi gave them his dpf to scan I believe heas hos own tune but I migght be wrong


he doesnt have an ecotune downpipe yet either, he only got his back so far, that I can tell.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Hooper hv you not read other posts I posted a dpf from france that was on ebay and it looks simmilar the Euro one posted on their site . Tdi saw the pics I posted and he confirmed me that dpf is not compatible. Ecotune used tdi dpf to make of their own. Only tdi knows. Yes I hv a tne RENNtech and a they will program car. I even offered via post that if anything if theres a discloser form I for one will sign im no douche bag that will blame others for my actions. That said I will reaffirm myself if Stan sells me the US Version pipe I will sign any papers. Is there anyone hrre that hv the cojones I hv in this forum not many do so. Im almost out of warranty. So I hope this clears everybody's mind on my thinking


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Also renntech has a dpf delete but no guinea pig I live in the island so im sol. And tdi I believe doesn't hv the pipe but will get it eventually he did lend it to them. In reference to the bad experience it was with another British manufacturer and what did I do nothing I could do I told to stay with their product. They eventually lost their bid with their subpar product. I dont believe Ecotune is that way and anyone could of pulled it of was them. But im a little distraught over their decision and will keep posting in the thread I started


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Axel61 said:


> Hooper hv you not read other posts I posted a dpf from france that was on ebay and it looks simmilar the Euro one posted on their site . Tdi saw the pics I posted and he confirmed me that dpf is not compatible. Ecotune used tdi dpf to make of their own. Only tdi knows. Yes I hv a tne RENNtech and a they will program car. I even offered via post that if anything if theres a discloser form I for one will sign im no douche bag that will blame others for my actions. That said I will reaffirm myself if Stan sells me the US Version pipe I will sign any papers. Is there anyone hrre that hv the cojones I hv in this forum not many do so. Im almost out of warranty. So I hope this clears everybody's mind on my thinking


yes, Ive been reading the posts. Not sure what youre trying to get at with the downpipe. TDI sent his to europe to get scanned but from my understanding they only scanned it, they didnt make a prototype and send it to him. The euro downpipe not fitting is known, I think it was a minimum of the fittings/flanges not being the same as well as nor having enough bungs for sensors.

While I dont doubt you wouldnt complain, ecotune doesnt know you and I guess they arent willing to take the risk, it has nothing to do with signing something and I would guess has everything to do with their reputation.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Hoop I do understand their reputation wouldn't RENNtech done a flash for our D's without risking defamatory remarks from the 335d owners. Not everyone would be happy then why Ecotune take the plunge oh I see it know Ecotunes downpipe works great with JB Evolve and RENNTECH better than thirs thats why. Im not saying they're subpar but scared the can be tarnished by someone that knew what he was getting into but his car got ****ed cause he didnt do the proper procedure. Lenny at renntech told me NEVER remove dpf without proper programming. I know I wouldn't be that stupid but there are people out there that would do such thing.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Man, this is getting out of hand... 

Yes, I took one for US "M57 Team" by spending significant $'s and down time to ship the DPF over there. Ecotune spent significant $'s and time to create a US compatible downpipe that matches their specific requirements for what they want. There are differences between the US and Euro version of the downpipe that needed to be addressed. If they want to only sell it to people who use their tune, that's their choice. Please, let's refrain from beating on a business because we don't like how they choose to do business. I for one am ECSTATIC they were even willing to help us, as a small community, accomplish this. If you want a downpipe to use with someone else, no one is stopping you from making/developing it yourself.

Now then, there is at least one 335d in the US running their tune with DPF/SCR/EGR completely and 100% out of the system. The EGR part required some hardware modification to get it to be 100% out. 

The car in question does not yet have their downpipe, but does have the DPF canister altered such that the Diesel Oxidative Catalyst in still in place, but the DPF section is no longer in place. They both share the same canister. The back section is the DPF (wrapped in white fiber in the pics) and the front part is the DOC. 

The DEF has been drained for a couple months. The SCR catalyst is still in place, for a little longer.

The tune is working well, Ecotune and their US representative Redline Speed Worx have been good to work with. There's a lot more info about the evolution of this over on the e90post forum for those interested.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

So I gather u will purchase their tune and im not condoning u but you're the only one that provided the DPF for them and I commend you. This thread was started by me and I will voice personal opinion on ecotune. Im not bashing them I merely am stating the truth. You went to them not all the way around so to say the least im still interested without the tune


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## David276815 (Jul 12, 2015)

*Bmw 335d mods*

I have a stock 2011 bmw 335d
what are some good upgrades to get more power and speed?


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## ponch (Jan 25, 2013)

Just thought I'd chime in on this as I just completed my project on this. I have a 2015 328d and just completed DPF/SCR/EGR delete. I used down pipe from evolution racewerks. That got rid of my dpf. Then I used mid section pipe from a 328i and that got rid of my SCR. That pipe slides in to downpipe like it belongs there. Then I just cut and weld the back right after scr. I decided to leave stock muffler on and it does sound good. All the tuning was done locally by mission performance. I have about 3500 miles now since deleted and no issues. I got a very mild tune since I was not looking for power mainly just to turn off egr,scr,dpf.


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

ponch said:


> Just thought I'd chime in on this as I just completed my project on this. I have a 2015 328d and just completed DPF/SCR/EGR delete. I used down pipe from evolution racewerks. That got rid of my dpf. Then I used mid section pipe from a 328i and that got rid of my SCR. That pipe slides in to downpipe like it belongs there. Then I just cut and weld the back right after scr. I decided to leave stock muffler on and it does sound good. All the tuning was done locally by mission performance. I have about 3500 miles now since deleted and no issues. I got a very mild tune since I was not looking for power mainly just to turn off egr,scr,dpf.


How do you plan on passing smog test?


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## ponch (Jan 25, 2013)

magbarn said:


> How do you plan on passing smog test?


thats the least of my worries..... All i worry about is running a healthy engine. as you know all that emission crap kills your engine faster, especially the egr..:thumbup:


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## asbsecu e93 (Sep 24, 2011)

Picked up a 2010 335d this past weekend to go along with my Supercharged E93 M3

I'll soon make the 2 hour trip down I-40 to Raleigh NC so Bimmer Performance Center can do DPF/SCR/DEF delete and Stage II tune!!!


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

asbsecu e93 said:


> Picked up a 2010 335d this past weekend to go along with my Supercharged E93 M3
> 
> I'll soon make the 2 hour trip down I-40 to Raleigh NC so Bimmer Performance Center can do DPF/SCR/DEF delete and Stage II tune!!!


I bet it'll be cheaper than the inevitable SCR Tank, injector, NOx sensor replacements I'll be paying for so I can pass CA's crappy 'smog check'


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

ponch said:


> thats the least of my worries..... All i worry about is running a healthy engine. As you know all that emission crap kills your engine faster, especially the egr..:thumbup:


lol


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

asbsecu e93 said:


> Picked up a 2010 335d this past weekend to go along with my Supercharged E93 M3
> 
> I'll soon make the 2 hour trip down I-40 to Raleigh NC so Bimmer Performance Center can do DPF/SCR/DEF delete and Stage II tune!!!


What have they quoted you for the service to do this? It's been a while since I communicated with them, they seem to have a good set up there.


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## asbsecu e93 (Sep 24, 2011)

Flyingman said:


> What have they quoted you for the service to do this? It's been a while since I communicated with them, they seem to have a good set up there.


~$3k for what I am looking at doing.

Tune, DPF/SCR/EGR delete.

The tune is only about $1k though.

The car had a carbon cleaning and walnut blasting in August - so I'm skipping this with BPC.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

asbsecu e93 said:


> ~$3k for what I am looking at doing.
> 
> Tune, DPF/SCR/EGR delete.
> 
> ...


I recall they offered my a complete package including the carbon cleaning. I did not want the tune at the time. I don't think they had one of the parts required to block the EGR as I recall, maybe now they can offer the full thing.

If I lived closer I would definitely have them do this. I don't seem to find any one in So. Fla. that can offer this.

Let us know how it goes!:thumbup:


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## asbsecu e93 (Sep 24, 2011)

Flyingman said:


> I recall they offered my a complete package including the carbon cleaning. I did not want the tune at the time. I don't think they had one of the parts required to block the EGR as I recall, maybe now they can offer the full thing.
> 
> If I lived closer I would definitely have them do this. I don't seem to find any one in So. Fla. that can offer this.
> 
> Let us know how it goes!:thumbup:


Just my .02 - it's worth the effort to take a week and drive up. Their service is superior to every dealer and indy shop I have used. They installed my S/C for my M3.

Every customer with a 335d who has received their tune raves about how improved the car feels.


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## jims2321 (Oct 3, 2010)

Well since I am selling back my TDI (dieselgate) and it looks like 335d are reasonably priced, I might just pick one up, and visit BPC for these mods. asbsecu, who did you talk with at BPC and should I have BPC do anything besides the delete and tun?

Jim


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## asbsecu e93 (Sep 24, 2011)

Jim - Call BPC and ask for Randall. He'll work up a quote and outline everything separate.

I'm going with stage 2+, DPF/SCR delete and EGR block. I am also getting a 2.5 gallon water/meth kit for the trunk with remote switch to turn on/off from the cabin of the car. 

My 335d was sold and serviced at the same dealer for the life of the car. It had a carbon cleaning and walnut blasting in August of this year. I'd highly recommend this if the one you buy does not have this service documented - and swirl flap delete too.


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## armourbl (Jan 12, 2018)

Contemplating either a 535d or 328d. Already have a Dodge 6.7 with full deletes. Can anyone tell me some reputable shops in Phoenix for performing the deletes on these cars?

I installed the deletes on my truck myself, but from my reading it doesn't sound like a job most can do themselves on the BMW's.

Really like the idea of a nice luxury sport sedan but having a lot of trouble deciding if the BMW will be a choice I end up regretting due to reliability issues. My truck has been worry free since doing the deletes.

Thanks,

ben


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

armourbl said:


> Contemplating either a 535d or 328d. Already have a Dodge 6.7 with full deletes. Can anyone tell me some reputable shops in Phoenix for performing the deletes on these cars?
> 
> I installed the deletes on my truck myself, but from my reading it doesn't sound like a job most can do themselves on the BMW's.
> 
> ...


If you want to pass emissions, you need a shop that can tune the DDE's programming. The engines and transmissions seem very reliable. I was looking at my records log yesterday: about 14 out of 66 items on the list were related to SCR/DEF problems.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

armourbl said:


> Contemplating either a 535d or 328d. Already have a Dodge 6.7 with full deletes. Can anyone tell me some reputable shops in Phoenix for performing the deletes on these cars?
> 
> I installed the deletes on my truck myself, but from my reading it doesn't sound like a job most can do themselves on the BMW's.
> 
> ...


How do you deal with emissions testing on your current vehicle??



> *OBD (On Board Diagnostics)*
> 
> The newest test to be used in Arizona is the on-board diagnostic test. Used on 1996 and newer light duty vehicles only, engine operating data is accessed by connecting directly to a computer in the vehicle that continuously monitors engine emission control systems operation. The on-board diagnostic test can identify problems before they lead to engine damage and emissions system failure.
> 
> ...


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## lawlknight (Sep 13, 2016)

ard said:


> How do you deal with emissions testing on your current vehicle??


Looks like Arizona diesel emissions are similar to Nevada. They only do an opacity test. I just did a full delete on my X5 and there's little to no smoke from the exhaust. Also depends on where they live. In Nevada, only those living in Clark and Washoe county are required to do emissions testing on diesels. Seems like it's only required in certain parts of Phoenix and Tucson.

"Diesel
Diesel vehicles are tested for opacity (smoke density). The test uses an opacity meter, which is an instrument that measures the percentage of opacity of the exhaust. Light duty diesel vehicles and all Tucson area diesel vehicles are tested under load on a dynamometer. In metro Phoenix, heavy duty diesel vehicles are tested using a procedure called "snap acceleration"."


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

lawlknight said:


> Looks like Arizona diesel emissions are similar to Nevada. They only do an opacity test. I just did a full delete on my X5 and there's little to no smoke from the exhaust. Also depends on where they live. In Nevada, only those living in Clark and Washoe county are required to do emissions testing on diesels. Seems like it's only required in certain parts of Phoenix and Tucson.
> 
> "Diesel
> Diesel vehicles are tested for opacity (smoke density). The test uses an opacity meter, which is an instrument that measures the percentage of opacity of the exhaust. Light duty diesel vehicles and all Tucson area diesel vehicles are tested under load on a dynamometer. In metro Phoenix, heavy duty diesel vehicles are tested using a procedure called "snap acceleration"."


Its why I asked.

Our diesels have OBD. They have an ODB category, that MIGHT be in addition to the 'diesel' category you cite.

here in CA, you get an OBD and a visual inspection.


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## lawlknight (Sep 13, 2016)

ard said:


> Its why I asked.
> 
> Our diesels have OBD. They have an ODB category, that MIGHT be in addition to the 'diesel' category you cite.
> 
> here in CA, you get an OBD and a visual inspection.


Granted the vehicle does have an OBD port, they don't use it for testing diesels in Nevada or Arizona. When I go for emissions testing they stick a thing in the tail pipe and run it on a dyno for a minute or two and that's all.


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## armourbl (Jan 12, 2018)

Yep, just opacity test in AZ. For my truck, they don't even put it on the dyno. They just have me rev it to red line a few times with no load, which really makes me 

On my TDI they put it on the dyno and run it in gear.

Both they just sniff the exhaust and my PPM are always super low, even on the truck with all of the deletes. I do make sure to romp on the truck hard before I go in for the test to blow out any residual soot that may be lingering in the exhaust. On the truck they also do a visual for a cat, but that is it. The techs pop the hood, scratch their heads a bit, call over a manager, etc., presumably because there are clearly parts missing. But ultimately they pass me every time.

Drove a 2014, 535d and 328d today. Still tying to determine which I prefer and if BMW is the right choice or not.

ben


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

I’m looking into DPF/EGR delete here in Canada. What is a good price for this? 2010 X5 35d “truck” lol
Recommendations for shops in Montreal?


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## DZLMoose (Jun 16, 2012)

Bille7035d said:


> I'm looking into DPF/EGR delete here in Canada. What is a good price for this? 2010 X5 35d "truck" lol
> Recommendations for shops in Montreal?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Come to Toronto.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lawlknight (Sep 13, 2016)

Bille7035d said:


> I'm looking into DPF/EGR delete here in Canada. What is a good price for this? 2010 X5 35d "truck" lol
> Recommendations for shops in Montreal?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


I spent about $225 for the EGR race pipe, $750 for the turbo back exhaust, $1000 for the tune, and around $1300 in labor to have it all installed. That's all in USD.


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

How long have you been running the delete?
Was it worth it?


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## lawlknight (Sep 13, 2016)

Bille7035d said:


> How long have you been running the delete?
> Was it worth it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


About 3 weeks so far. It was definitely worth it. My DPF went bad and would have been around $3500 to replace. I have a lot more power and the whistle from the turbos is really nice. That along with my transmission tune make my X5D pretty fast.


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

lawlknight said:


> About 3 weeks so far. It was definitely worth it. My DPF went bad and would have been around $3500 to replace. I have a lot more power and the whistle from the turbos is really nice. That along with my transmission tune make my X5D pretty fast.


I will end up doing this.
My price here in Montreal is $939 for the down pipe, waiting for other prices for tune and EGR delete.
Still loving it?

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## lawlknight (Sep 13, 2016)

Bille7035d said:


> I will end up doing this.
> My price here in Montreal is $939 for the down pipe, waiting for other prices for tune and EGR delete.
> Still loving it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Yeah I'm still really happy with it. Only bad thing right now is I hit a rock on the freeway and it put a small dent in it and bent it upwards so it's rubbing and making weird noises. Have to get to a exhaust shop and have it fixed soon.

These are the items I bought for mine;

http://www.fixmyvw.com/buzzken-bmw-x5d-dpf-and-scr-cat-delete-3/

http://www.fixmyvw.com/egr-race-pipe-for-bmw-335d-and-x5-35d/

There are cheaper options for the EGR delete, but this one comes with everything for the EGR cooler delete and it has some extra ports for a boost gauge or something if you want it.


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

:thumbup:

Any new news on your mod?


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## sunny_j (Sep 24, 2006)

what mod?


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

Lawlknight did the DPF delete, just checking in to see how things are going with it.
Looking st the same thing for late summer on mine.


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## sunny_j (Sep 24, 2006)

I've put about 3k km on my x5d with the JR stage 2.8 and haven't had any issues. Getting the TCU tuned next


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

sunny_j said:


> I've put about 3k km on my x5d with the JR stage 2.8 and haven't had any issues. Getting the TCU tuned next


So that's EGR delete, DPF delete and the down pipe replaced and a tune for codes, right? Better hp and torque?
Fuel mileage better?

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

I have generally gained 2-3 mpg in every diesel truck I have deleted. My 328D, not so much.....


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## sunny_j (Sep 24, 2006)

Bille7035d said:


> So that's EGR delete, DPF delete and the down pipe replaced and a tune for codes, right? Better hp and torque?
> Fuel mileage better?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


That is correct. Much more hp and tq which the stage 2.8 tune. Fuel mileage has improved too


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

sunny_j said:


> That is correct. Much more hp and tq which the stage 2.8 tune. Fuel mileage has improved too


You have to send them the ÉCU from your truck?
Did you remove the swirl flaps?

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## sunny_j (Sep 24, 2006)

Bille7035d said:


> You have to send them the ÉCU from your truck?
> Did you remove the swirl flaps?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


I had it tuned locally in Vancouver. JR has a deal with Nixon here. Once the delete is complete you still have to pull out the DDE to unplug the 10amp fuse for the urea system.

swirl flaps are disabled via tune and I will install blanks when I pull the intake off to change the vacuums lines.

pretty sure JR can delete and tune if you drive down to them. make it a road trip


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

sunny_j said:


> I had it tuned locally in Vancouver. JR has a deal with Nixon here. Once the delete is complete you still have to pull out the DDE to unplug the 10amp fuse for the urea system.
> 
> swirl flaps are disabled via tune and I will install blanks when I pull the intake off to change the vacuums lines.
> 
> pretty sure JR can delete and tune if you drive down to them. make it a road trip


Thank you for sharing and the info!

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

My 35d goes in Friday for DPF delete with Rawtek down pipe, highflow cat and Malone stage 2. 


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## kozlio (Mar 14, 2018)

Bille7035d said:


> My 35d goes in Friday for DPF delete with Rawtek down pipe, highflow cat and Malone stage 2.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


How will u pass quebec emissions? Im also interested in deletes (and stage2 JR tune) but my mechanic warned me in addition to failed emissions, local police does surprise blitzes of hardware check on suspiciously loud cars


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

A turbo is not likely to be ***8220;suspiciously loud.***8221;


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

kozlio said:


> How will u pass quebec emissions? Im also interested in deletes (and stage2 JR tune) but my mechanic warned me in addition to failed emissions, local police does surprise blitzes of hardware check on suspiciously loud cars


No emissions check in Quebec and it's really not loud at all, just a turbo wine, but no one but a diesel guy would no that it was a DPF delete.

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## kozlio (Mar 14, 2018)

Bille7035d said:


> My 35d goes in Friday for DPF delete with Rawtek down pipe, highflow cat and Malone stage 2.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Hows the new power gain?


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

First day was great! Then I lost 2 injectors. Water shield at the windshield was broken, hard rain over night and shorted out 4 and 6 injectors. Replaced them and we are good, 1000km on the weekend. Power is smooth and strong. But... the smell is strong too. I don’t have a big issue with the smell except i was stuck in traffic and we could smell it inside the truck. Anyone else notice this? Is there a way to reduce the smell? I did put on the high flow cat, should I add another cat?


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## kozlio (Mar 14, 2018)

Bille7035d said:


> First day was great! Then I lost 2 injectors. Water shield at the windshield was broken, hard rain over night and shorted out 4 and 6 injectors. Replaced them and we are good, 1000km on the weekend. Power is smooth and strong. But... the smell is strong too. I don't have a big issue with the smell except i was stuck in traffic and we could smell it inside the truck. Anyone else notice this? Is there a way to reduce the smell? I did put on the high flow cat, should I add another cat?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


I've read of the diesel smell in cabin after tunes/deletes i think on YouTube comments, for 335d/x5d deletes. Sorry i got no solutions to report.


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## kozlio (Mar 14, 2018)

Bille7035d said:


> First day was great! Then I lost 2 injectors. Water shield at the windshield was broken, hard rain over night and shorted out 4 and 6 injectors. Replaced them and we are good, 1000km on the weekend. Power is smooth and strong. But... the smell is strong too. I don't have a big issue with the smell except i was stuck in traffic and we could smell it inside the truck. Anyone else notice this? Is there a way to reduce the smell? I did put on the high flow cat, should I add another cat?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Are you still experiencing diesel exhaust smell around the car and in the cabin?

Hows the Malone tune so far?

I had the JR stage 2 tune mapped today. No deletes for me yet, just software for now. Jarek himself advised against removal of the DPF due to smoke/smell, if I understood correctly. Said without a DPF the diesel smell is very prominent. Not very refined for a mid level luxury SUV.


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

Hi, the smell has gotten better but still there. When it’s really cold it gets stronger. Here’s hoping summer is better.
The truck is running great with the delete and the sound is great.
The DPF clogs over time, I agree it reduces smell and smoke significantly, but the restriction is huge.


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

No smell inside anymore.


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## 328DxVancouver (Aug 27, 2017)

I deleted my 328d and removed the DPF and cat, so it definitely smells. Smells like an old school diesel bus, from before the turbo era.

Inside it smells sometimes .... depending on conditions. If you back up on start up, and drive into your own exhaust that's when you really notice it. 

If i could have gone back, i would have kept the cat in, just gotten rid of the DPF.


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

Ya, I was thinking about putting my old cat back on with the new hi flow cat to see if it will help with the smell.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

I will smell it every once in a while. Being around diesels all my life it doesn't really bother me though. Although when I do get a whiff of it, the smell itself is worse than my deleted trucks exhaust smell. It is a different kind of smell. Not sure if it is because I have a Cated downpipe on the BMW and nothing but a flow through muffler and resonator on my truck. 

It is not as bad as the gas smell of my wife's Infiniti SUV or my last gas truck when you cold start it and it runs rich to warm up the engine. That stinks.


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## sunny_j (Sep 24, 2006)

Bille7035d said:


> Ya, I was thinking about putting my old cat back on with the new hi flow cat to see if it will help with the smell.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


that's why I went with the Buzzken downpipes with a DOC. it helps cutting down the fumes


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## Bille7035d (Sep 17, 2017)

What’s a DOC?


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## sunny_j (Sep 24, 2006)

Bille7035d said:


> What's a DOC?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Diesel Oxidation Catalyst. My buddy has a X5d deleted without a DOC and his smells more than my x5d with a DOC


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