# BMWNA recommends 87 Octane fuel on my 330ciC



## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

Ever since I took delivery of my 330ciC, I've had cold start problems being that the ignition takes a while (several seconds) to catch. On occasions, when the ignition does catch, the idle drops and stalls.

I brought the car in the first time and the technician reprogrammed my idle but the problem did not go away. I brought it in again today and the technician had a long discussion with BMWNA tech support regarding my problem. Apparently, this is a known issue with some vehicles and they suggested to me that I use lower grade fuel and the problem should go away.

Have any here had the same problem? Should I take their suggestion and use a lower grade fuel or press them further to find a real fix to my problem. To be honest, I am hesistant about using a lower grade fuel as it will hamper performance.


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## sniper6182 (Apr 24, 2004)

um...i have the same problem and i think a lot of people are experiencing the same...many have mentioned that it's a known problem on the 3.0L engines...

i brought mine in the other day, they told me to set up a service appointment and they'll take a loook at it, but they dont think anything's wrong with it because a lot of people are experiencing the same thing...im like wtf r u talking about/? if everyone experiences something that's bad then that makes it OK???  i almost asked him if he would jump off the bridge if everyone else did too..but i caught myself before i did b/c it would more harm than good... then they said i should drop it off so they can hook it up to the computer and see what's going on...personally im kinda reluctant to do so because the car is still int he breakin period, and lord knows what those 18year olds do to your car when it's in the shop...i happen to be a very fortunate 21 yr old w/ a bimmer...but personally if i didnt have one and had an opportunity to work at the bmw dealer, it'd be an opportunity of a lifetime for me to go insane in other people's cars.....

but anyway to address your problem...i really dont know that's good idea, to use lower grade fuel for your car....i forgot where i read this, possibly in the manual itself, but i believe using lower grade fuel than the recommended type will damage the oxygen sensors...


my friend has an 2001 330i and he said he still experiences that problem to this very day...violent startup, but when u start driving it's fine...he stalls every once in a while too...
let me know if you find more info about this, im very interested as well...


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Search on "stall" or "rough idle" and you'll find hundreds of posts. I posted a poll on the problem today too.


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

sniper6182 said:


> ...i really dont know that's good idea, to use lower grade fuel for your car....i forgot where i read this, possibly in the manual itself, but i believe using lower grade fuel than the recommended type will damage the oxygen sensors....


I cold started the car tonight with my foot partially depressed on the accelerator. It took about 2 seconds to engage and when it did I kept my foot on the accelerator to keep it from stalling. This way, I think I can live with the problem without compromising the grade of fuel. If performance could be compromised, I might as well get a 325. Why pay the extra bucks for a 330? Meanwhile, I will try to demand a permanent fix. 

I really don't know why it takes so long to engage and what the grade of fuel had to do with it. My dealer told me that BMW NA :dunno: does not know why it happens to some cars and not to others. They believed that the problem had something to do with all the additives in the premium fuel. But then, why do I only have the problem only on cold starts? :dunno:


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

kurichan said:


> Search on "stall" or "rough idle" and you'll find hundreds of posts. I posted a poll on the problem today too.


Thanks kurichan, I did participate in your poll earlier today. Stalling wasn't really the main problem. Starting taking a long time to engage was my main concern.


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## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

I have an intermittant stalling problem on my 325Ci and my dealer recommended 89 octane gas... that might be a reasonable compromise... I don't think I'd go down to 87 if I were in your shoes... I didn't even drop down to 89, I just am always ready to downshift and pop the clutch to restart my car if it cuts out while I'm driving...


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## nexadan (Apr 30, 2004)

*lowering to 89 octane did not cure my stalling problems*



Salvator said:


> I have an intermittant stalling problem on my 325Ci and my dealer recommended 89 octane gas... that might be a reasonable compromise... I don't think I'd go down to 87 if I were in your shoes... I didn't even drop down to 89, I just am always ready to downshift and pop the clutch to restart my car if it cuts out while I'm driving...


FYI... downgrading to 3 tanks of 89 octane did not cure my stalling problem.

Reprogramming the DME (although only to SW37) did help for several weeks... but it's back again... just a lot less frequent now.... maybe once a day instead of 5 times a day.

Dan


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## cantona7 (Apr 8, 2004)

sniper6182 said:


> um...i have the same problem and i think a lot of people are experiencing the same...many have mentioned that it's a known problem on the 3.0L engines...


Hey Sniper, when did your car start displaying this problem? I'm about 1000 miles in (only 250 to go till the end of break-in--woohoo!) and my car's been fine (idles around 700 rpm)--knock on wood. I've followed just about all the threads on the various boards about this issue, and it seems there is more than one cause and more than one type of problem with similar symptoms. The ZHPs have a very similar issue, but I don't think it's related to cold starts--just a rough and erratic idle that leads to a stall, sometimes at very low speeds. Various people have had the problems resolved by replacing the ignition coils, reprogramming the DME, raising idle, etc.


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

Quick update: The service department called me the other day and asked me how things are working out with the lower gas grade. I told them I did not downgrade my octane level nor do I plan to. Not much they can do for me at this point but they did note that BMW NA is working on a software fix on this problem but no word out yet when it will be available.


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## sniper6182 (Apr 24, 2004)

cantona7 said:


> Hey Sniper, when did your car start displaying this problem? I'm about 1000 miles in (only 250 to go till the end of break-in--woohoo!) and my car's been fine (idles around 700 rpm)--knock on wood. I've followed just about all the threads on the various boards about this issue, and it seems there is more than one cause and more than one type of problem with similar symptoms. The ZHPs have a very similar issue, but I don't think it's related to cold starts--just a rough and erratic idle that leads to a stall, sometimes at very low speeds. Various people have had the problems resolved by replacing the ignition coils, reprogramming the DME, raising idle, etc.


well car stalled a few times within the first week that i got it...brought it back to bmw, and they said software might be in transport mode...so they deactivated transport mode by takign the car out...and in second gear, they have to push it till it reaches 4500 RPM....then let it cruise without shifting, braking or pushing on gas pedal, till it gets to about 1000RPM...supposedly he heard a click at around 1200RPM which indicates that transport mode is deactivated...

my car astill has a rough start up....like it'll jump to 1500RPM, then down to like maybe 400-500 then back up again...it sounds kinda scary


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## ChrisTO (Jan 24, 2002)

what a load of BS...with all the fancy technology this is how they take the software out of 'transport mode'. sounds more like permission for a joy ride. how does BMW and more importantly us customers put up with BS like this from BMW!



sniper6182 said:


> they have to push it till it reaches 4500 RPM....then let it cruise without shifting, braking or pushing on gas pedal, till it gets to about 1000RPM...supposedly he heard a click at around 1200RPM which indicates that transport mode is deactivated...


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## wmndriver (Jun 3, 2003)

I had a similar problem wiht me '03 330xi and the fix was a new fuel system in the car.


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

Claresecl said:


> I had a similar problem wiht me '03 330xi and the fix was a new fuel system in the car.


New fuel system? How bad did the problem had to be for them to agree to replace the fuel system? I suppose they probably know the extend of the problem and probably trying to *****foot around it. I will probably bring this issue up with them tomorrow. Thanks. :thumbup:


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## sniper6182 (Apr 24, 2004)

ChrisTO said:


> what a load of BS...with all the fancy technology this is how they take the software out of 'transport mode'. sounds more like permission for a joy ride. how does BMW and more importantly us customers put up with BS like this from BMW!


the solution to get it out of transport mode sounded like BS to me too, thats why i tagged alogn when they did that...and the guy did exactly what he said he was going to do....took it to 4500 in 2nd gear and let it cruise to 1000rpm....and my car hasnt stalled since...there's no rough idle at all either...or not yet anyway...and it's been about 4 weeks....but the rough cold start is still there.....yeah, i wasnt about to let him take that car out for a joy ride the first week i got it w/out me sitting right next to him 

but yeah i thoughta bout it, and i would have only helped, iw ouldnt' have been at a loss or anythign since the car wasnt reved past 4500RPM (break-in states that u should keep it at 4500RPM or less)


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## ChrisTO (Jan 24, 2002)

my guess is they were hoping to clear up whatever has 'gummed up' in the fuel system by revving up the engine(injest maximum fuel flow). certainly they can't say that to a customer so 'transport mode' seemed like a likely excuse.

i would seriously ask BMWNA about this transport mode and call their bluff on it. for a premier automotive brand that is certainly not a way to treat by telling a customer with lies.



sniper6182 said:


> the solution to get it out of transport mode sounded like BS to me too, thats why i tagged alogn when they did that...and the guy did exactly what he said he was going to do....took it to 4500 in 2nd gear and let it cruise to 1000rpm....and my car hasnt stalled since...there's no rough idle at all either...or not yet anyway...and it's been about 4 weeks....but the rough cold start is still there.....yeah, i wasnt about to let him take that car out for a joy ride the first week i got it w/out me sitting right next to him
> 
> but yeah i thoughta bout it, and i would have only helped, iw ouldnt' have been at a loss or anythign since the car wasnt reved past 4500RPM (break-in states that u should keep it at 4500RPM or less)


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## sniper6182 (Apr 24, 2004)

i've never heard of it myself, but ended up researching it afterwards...if ud o a search for transport mode there's other peoplethat have had to go to the dealer to get their car out of transport mode...it's been discussed about in here before...the service guy that i talked to basically told me the same thing as the first reply to the OP in the first link listed below...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57432&highlight=transport+mode

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28599&highlight=transport+mode


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

*Problem appears to have disappeared*

Another update: My 330cic has been starting fine the last couple of days. It might have been the warmer weather but I suspect it was because of the kind of gasoline I've been buying.

As I recall starting problems came about after I purchased Sunoco's 94 blend. After that I had several fill ups at Shell and a 7/11 with a variety of 91 - 94 gasoline. All of those fill ups were to partially empty tanks.

Last week when my dealer asked me to empty the tank and use 87 gas, I emptied the tank but filled it up with Esso 91 instead. The problems went away afterward.

My dealer had told me that some additives to high octane gasoline were causing the problem and that's why they recommended 87. Right now I think the problem stem from additives in Sunoco's 94 blend.

I suggest people with similar problems empty their tank and use Esso 91 and see if their problems will go away. My next experiment will be to empty my tank and fill it up with Shell 91 next time. Will keep you all posted.


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## yamato (Feb 11, 2003)

i did an oil change the other day. my idle (just above 500rpm) is smoother now. but i don't know if it is going to last long though.

I agree it is probably just an excuse for the dealer to say get out of the transport mode. Why don't they just say get out of the filagee?


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## gizzy (Apr 4, 2004)

nickeltong said:


> Another update: My 330cic has been starting fine the last couple of days. It might have been the warmer weather but I suspect it was because of the kind of gasoline I've been buying.
> 
> As I recall starting problems came about after I purchased Sunoco's 94 blend. After that I had several fill ups at Shell and a 7/11 with a variety of 91 - 94 gasoline. All of those fill ups were to partially empty tanks.
> 
> ...


My inlaws had a similar problem with their Honda CRX. It would have problems starting in the moring whenever they filled up from Amoco but Shell was fine. My Bimmer and my wife's Buick runs fine with Amoco though.


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

nickeltong said:


> Another update: My 330cic has been starting fine the last couple of days. It might have been the warmer weather but I suspect it was because of the kind of gasoline I've been buying.
> 
> As I recall starting problems came about after I purchased Sunoco's 94 blend. After that I had several fill ups at Shell and a 7/11 with a variety of 91 - 94 gasoline. All of those fill ups were to partially empty tanks.
> 
> ...


My apologies to Sunoco. I haven't had a chance to put gas in the car and the starting problem came back. It appears that the problem comes when temperture is in the teens and goes away when it is above 20 degrees or so (celsius). Back to the drawing board again :dunno:


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

UPDATE

FWIW, I went half tank with 87octane to see if the starting hesistation would go away. I did notice the engine kicks in faster than usual but they have been warm starts. Will take a couple of days to see the result.

Meanwhile, I did not notice much power loss due to the lower octane gas. Maybe it is something that is noticable only when you are flooring it. :dunno:

Will keep you posted on the results. I am hoping that the problem wouldn't go away so I can have my fuel system looked at or replaced.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

What a crock of s#it BMWNA is trying to hand us....the "Ultimate Driving Machine" my ass....the engine`s ECU *should* have enough flexibility to deal with various fuels available in the U.S. ,Canada & Europe....you guys who track your cars and throw in a few gallons of Cam2 once in a while...does this hurt your performance??? All we`re gonna get from BMWNA is a smokescreen until they admit that LOTS of 3-series cars have this problem....they just announced a" stall recall" for 5 & 7-series vehicles....just a drop in the bucket when you consider how many 3-series are on the road compared to all the other models.

Regards,
Bob


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## RSPDiver (Jul 14, 2004)

Just a crazy thought, but could it be related to the 100,000 mile spark plugs? Seems like some Splitfire (or similar) plugs, or just some hotter sparking ones may help this.


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

I've thought all along that this "rough idle" "stalling" "etc" thing (For all models including the ZHP) was probably more bad gas than anything BMW did or did not do. I trust BMW a lot more than my local ****** owned and operated BP station.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

RSPDiver said:


> Just a crazy thought, but could it be related to the 100,000 mile spark plugs? Seems like some Splitfire (or similar) plugs, or just some hotter sparking ones may help this.


This could be worth looking into....Bosch makes a "Platinum +4" plug, with 4 electrodes. I used these with great success on my Audi 5000 TurboQuattros, where cylinder pressures ran high enough to reduce the gaps on lesser plugs. Not sure if the heat range is the same as in the BMW engines. Modern HEI ignition systems dump 40,000+ volts into the plugs, and our engines have a hemi-head combustion chamber, the most efficient of all designs, so at least on paper, all the pieces are in place for maximum performance & efficiency. I think that BMWNA should consult an outside vendor (such as Holley) who makes stand-alone digital fuel-injection systems with electronic management systems that actually work.

Regards,
Bob


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## RSPDiver (Jul 14, 2004)

Thanks Bob. At least I'm not just high on crack with my thoughts!  It just struck me as a possiblity, since higher octane ratings are really higher resistance to detonation, and cause a slower flame front. This is useful in the hot cylinders of high compression engines, but can mean sucky day-to-day issues for the daily driver.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

RSPDiver said:


> Thanks Bob. At least I'm not just high on crack with my thoughts!  It just struck me as a possiblity, since higher octane ratings are really higher resistance to detonation, and cause a slower flame front. This is useful in the hot cylinders of high compression engines, but can mean sucky day-to-day issues for the daily driver.


No, I think you`re on the right track....my personal theory is that most cars (even BMWs) are delivered assuming a "worst-case scenario" i.e., that the owner will not maintain the car in a high state of tune, use mediocre fuel, etc. A good tuner can usually get quite a few more HP out of a particular car by optimizing all available settings....BUT, the ECU *must* provide a big-enough performance window to accomodate these adjustments. IMHO, this is BMW`s biggest problem....let`s see if they step up to the plate and address the issue....

Regards,
Bob


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

Fast Bob said:


> No, I think you`re on the right track....my personal theory is that most cars (even BMWs) are delivered assuming a "worst-case scenario" i.e., that the owner will not maintain the car in a high state of tune, use mediocre fuel, etc. A good tuner can usually get quite a few more HP out of a particular car by optimizing all available settings....BUT, the ECU *must* provide a big-enough performance window to accomodate these adjustments. IMHO, this is BMW`s biggest problem....let`s see if they step up to the plate and address the issue....
> 
> Regards,
> Bob


That was the whole idea of the "chip". BMW tunes their cars for the worst possible gas anywhere in the world, the chip just allows you to take advantage of higher octane fuel if you can get it.


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

You guys kinda lost me there.

Are you saying that my starting problems may be sparkplug related?

On a side note, I had problem starting tonight with the starter taking about 2 seconds to engage despite the lower octane gas. I'm going to give it the weekend before confronting my SA next week. : puke:


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

nickeltong said:


> You guys kinda lost me there.
> 
> Are you saying that my starting problems may be sparkplug related?
> 
> On a side note, I had problem starting tonight with the starter taking about 2 seconds to engage despite the lower octane gas. I'm going to give it the weekend before confronting my SA next week. : puke:


What I`m saying is that every link in the chain needs to be examined, and isolate the weakest link. Putting lower octane fuel in your tank is like putting a Band-Aid on a broken leg....sure, it will ignite at lower cylinder pressure/temp, but in the process, the engine`s management system will retard the timing to compensate, giving substantially LESS than optimum performance....is this what you paid $40k for???

Regards,
Bob


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## nickeltong (Mar 16, 2004)

Fast Bob said:


> ....is this what you paid $40k for???
> 
> Regards,
> Bob


That's what I told my SA (C$70k was about what I paid). If I could compromise performance, I'd save me a bundle and get me a 325i instead. I swapped to a lower grade gas knowing that it wouldn't fix my problem. I suspected that they suggested the lower grade solution simply to throw the ball back at me hoping that I wouldn't go there.

Well, the jury is out. The lower octane solution did not solve my starting problem. The rough idle after a cold start is gone though. They will hear from me Monday.


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