# Shimmy solved by balancing



## BrettInLJ (Oct 3, 2003)

This shimmy problem is weird. Others have had to replace control arms, etc., but I just got a high-speed on-car balance done this morning and the shimmy between 50-60mph is completly gone! Could the same 50-60mph shimmy my symptomatic of two different problems (control arm and balance)?

FYI, if you are in San Diego I highly recommend Clarence Brown Alignment. They are legendary here in SD and have discovered and solved many problems for me over the years.


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## marinakorp (Oct 3, 2003)

YES,


the diagnosis process starts with the cheap stuff (balance, tire pressure, clean wheels, torq lugs, torq rotors, etc)

when you are tired of doingthis on a monthly / weekly / daily basis... the control arms are shot... replace the bearings.

I have done all of the above... would last for a week... then check pressure almost daily, etc

getting the bearings done today / tomorrow... will let you know how it goes


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## crete (May 16, 2003)

I already have shimmy from 45-60 mph and I only have 4500 miles on my 2003 540ia. Couldn't be control arms this soon, so maybe it is a balance problem. But will dealer do high-speed on car balancing under warranty?


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## marinakorp (Oct 3, 2003)

crete said:


> I already have shimmy from 45-60 mph and I only have 4500 miles on my 2003 540ia. Couldn't be control arms this soon, so maybe it is a balance problem. But will dealer do high-speed on car balancing under warranty?


If the dealer even has the high speed on car balancing!

EVERYTHING should be covered under FACTORY Warrantee, maintenance, wear, etc


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## Lscman (Aug 5, 2003)

IMO, the E39 rubber thrust (control) arm bushings are deteriorating due to their soft, low durometer design combined with ozone/dryrot. My guess is they will crack, rip & fail in a certain number of years & mileage/use probably has little to do with it. It appears they begin failing in 3 to 5 years.

My experience with various marques shows that certain batches of rubber parts will last longer than other's. You might find a left control arm bushing rots out in 3 years and the right side lasts for 8. It's hard to predict, so proactive changeout during strut replacement around 50-75K miles is probably wise. Why drive around with an annoying vibration for a year and cup a set of $400 tires & disassemble the front suspension twice? No need, really.


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## BrettInLJ (Oct 3, 2003)

Its back. 

I'll check the bushings the next chance I get.


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

*Rotor runout*

Borrow or buy a dial guage and can check rotor runout which, on cars with big rotors, can definitely cause vibrations at certain speeds.


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## BrettInLJ (Oct 3, 2003)

jamietre said:


> Borrow or buy a dial guage and can check rotor runout which, on cars with big rotors, can definitely cause vibrations at certain speeds.


This is true even when not braking? What exactly is "rotor runout"?


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

BrettInLJ said:


> This is true even when not braking? What exactly is "rotor runout"?


Yes - runout is measurement of uneven wear on a rotor. It is possible that you could have runout that wasn't enough to cause braking vibrations, or had certain chacteristics that wouldn't cause brake vibrations, but still resulted in uneven weighting in the rotor. The dial gauge measures over the rotation of the rotor the difference between the "lowest" and "highest" point. I am not sure what the maximum acceptable spec is for that car but that ought to be easy to find out.

Anyway the unbalanced metal can cause vibrations while driving for the same reason unbalanced wheels do - more weight on one side of the rotor. If you have an area that is substantially thinner on a big rotor (and even on my 330 they are BIG, so I suspect a 540 would also have substantial rotors) that's a decent amount of weight, even though the diameter isn't as great as the wheel.


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## jun (Oct 10, 2002)

I have a 2003 540 with vibration felt from the gas pedal. I used to have the steering shimmy as well. For some reason, when I replaced the oem brake pads with Axxis deluxe pads, the sterring wheel shimmy 'disappeared'. The gas pedal vibe is still present though. I 've had this problem when cruising at 60 and over since I got the car new in October last year. The car now has about 5100 miles. the wheels have been balanced multiple times from 2 different dealers. The tires also have been replaced by the dealer. 

Is it possible that my car, at 20 miles, have a rotor runout problem?


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## Lscman (Aug 5, 2003)

Brett,

The correct answer to your question is NO. Rotor warpage (runout) will not cause the vibration you feel when you're not using the brakes. You have another problem, since your vibration exists when the brakes are not applied.

Runout is NOT a measure of rotor imbalance (either). A perfectly straight rotor can have a terrible imbalance. A terribly warped rotor with 0.060" runout can be in perfect balance. Rotors are balanced when manufactured. Unless your dealer spins your wheels with a special machine while they're mounted on your car, the rotor's balance will not be verified. This is not your problem anyway.


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

Lscman said:


> The correct answer to your question is NO. Rotor warpage (runout) will not cause the vibration you feel when you're not using the brakes. You have another problem, since your vibration exists when the brakes are not applied.


This is definitely not true. It is well documented (and perfectly logical) that imbalanced rotors can cause vibrations. If an imbalanced wheel causes vibrations, why would you think an imbalanced rotor couldn't? It's a spinning mass about an axis, just like the wheel. It is certainly less common, but it absolutely happens sometimes.



Lscman said:


> Runout is NOT a measure of rotor imbalance (either). A perfectly straight rotor can have a terrible imbalance. A terribly warped rotor with 0.060" runout can be in perfect balance. Rotors are balanced when manufactured. Unless your dealer spins your wheels with a special machine while they're mounted on your car, the rotor's balance will not be verified. This is not your problem anyway.


Well, that is true - runout measures the lateral range of "motion" in a rotor. As such it measures thickness, or possibly warping. But when people say rotors are "warped" it usually means they have worn unevenly due to manufacturing imperfections or deposits of brake pad material. This means more metal in some parts of the rotor, less in other parts -- which causes imbalance.

So - while runout is not a measure of rotor imbalance - it is an indicator. If the rotor is thinner in one place than in another, it is rational to expect it is also no longer balanced from one side to the other. I suppose it is possible that a rotor could be balanced properly even though it exhibits runout, and it is possible that a rotor that exhibits no runout could be out of balance -- but at the same time the greatest likelihood is that a rotor with excessive runout is also out of balance. Since it's easy to measure runout, this is a good place to start.

Anyway, the bottom line is, a spinning mass that is out of balance can cause vibrations. This could be a wheel, a tire, or a drive shaft. I personally have experienced a bad rotor causing vibrations -- much like our friend here, after getting the wheels balanced, tire roundness checked, the problem wasn's solved, I changed the front rotors and it disappeared. :dunno:


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## jun (Oct 10, 2002)

jamietre said:


> This is definitely not true. It is well documented (and perfectly logical) that imbalanced rotors can cause vibrations. If an imbalanced wheel causes vibrations, why would you think an imbalanced rotor couldn't? It's a spinning mass about an axis, just like the wheel. It is certainly less common, but it absolutely happens sometimes.
> 
> Well, that is true - runout measures the lateral range of "motion" in a rotor. As such it measures thickness, or possibly warping. But when people say rotors are "warped" it usually means they have worn unevenly due to manufacturing imperfections or deposits of brake pad material. This means more metal in some parts of the rotor, less in other parts -- which causes imbalance.
> 
> ...


Do you think this rotor problem also might be the case in my issue. I have the vibration in the gas pedal even when I am not braking. It has been a problem in my car since I got the car last October when the car has 20 miles in it. It now has about 5100 miles int.


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

jun said:


> Do you think this rotor problem also might be the case in my issue. I have the vibration in the gas pedal even when I am not braking. It has been a problem in my car since I got the car last October when the car has 20 miles in it. It now has about 5100 miles int.


I would be surprised that the car would have defective rotors out of the factory, though I suppose it is possible. But you would usually feel this kind of vibration through the steering wheel or through the whole car. I'm not sure what to make of a vibration felt through the gas pedal, maybe motor mounts or something? But the car is brand new. Has the dealer done anything about it or acknowledged the problem?


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## jun (Oct 10, 2002)

jamietre said:


> I would be surprised that the car would have defective rotors out of the factory, though I suppose it is possible. But you would usually feel this kind of vibration through the steering wheel or through the whole car. I'm not sure what to make of a vibration felt through the gas pedal, maybe motor mounts or something? But the car is brand new. Has the dealer done anything about it or acknowledged the problem?


when I first got the car, it had the steering wheel shimmy as well as the gas pedal vibration. The wheels have been balanced several times at 2 dealerships. The tires were also replaced in my second visit. After the 3rd or 4th time it was balanced on the second dealership, the problem improved a little bit, but, the vibration issues were still definitely there. Last Saturday, I replaced the oem pads with axxis deluxe plus pads and I was surprised to notice that the steering wheel shimmy 'disappeared'. The gas pedal vibration though is still present starting at about 60 and growing worse as I speed up. Dave Z. menitoned in one of his post that it could be a driveshaft problem. I also have a new set of BBS wheels and Goodyear tires coming in next week. so, I am not too worried if this is a wheel/tire problem.

Btw, do you have a shop? I am also in the Wash. DC area?


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

jun said:


> Btw, do you have a shop? I am also in the Wash. DC area?


When I was having vibration problems I took my car to a place called D&R Servicenter in Kensington because they have a Hunter GPS9700 balancer. This place was able to solve vibration problems (out-of-round tires; bent wheels) that the BMW places could not. This was my 330 - I've not had rotor problems on this car though, that was on a Volvo 850.

For BMW service under warranty I've been to VOB and BMW of Arlington, some good and some bad with each of them... mostly steering retrofit related, though.


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## jun (Oct 10, 2002)

jamietre said:


> When I was having vibration problems I took my car to a place called D&R Servicenter in Kensington because they have a Hunter GPS9700 balancer. This place was able to solve vibration problems (out-of-round tires; bent wheels) that the BMW places could not. This was my 330 - I've not had rotor problems on this car though, that was on a Volvo 850.
> 
> For BMW service under warranty I've been to VOB and BMW of Arlington, some good and some bad with each of them... mostly steering retrofit related, though.


I bought my previous 01 330ci and my current 03 540a from VOB. They also did the balancing ot the wheels as well as replacing all the tires. Unfortunately, they were not able to resolved anything. The second dealer that looked into my car is BMW of Sterling. They were able to somewhat reduce the vibration issue. I just can't accept the fact that a brand new $50,000 + plus car will have these kind of problems.


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

jun said:


> I bought my previous 01 330ci and my current 03 540a from VOB. They also did the balancing ot the wheels as well as replacing all the tires. Unfortunately, they were not able to resolved anything. The second dealer that looked into my car is BMW of Sterling. They were able to somewhat reduce the vibration issue. I just can't accept the fact that a brand new $50,000 + plus car will have these kind of problems.


On the 330, VOB had installed a new set of S03's that I bought from Tire Rack, and the vibration began (or got worse) after that. I at first assumed they had screwed something up, but then D&R determined that two of my wheels were bent and two of the new tires were out of round (this began soon after I had a new set of tires installed). It's pretty hard to pin this on VOB, since I can hardly deny that my wheels take a beating around DC and two of the new tires were defective. The roads suck and I drive the car every day. So I think it's equally likely that my wheels had slowly become bent over time and I didn't notice until the brand new tires were on (and of course two of the new tires were out-of-round - replaced immediately by Tire Rack I might add).

Anyway, D&R sent the wheels out to be straightened ($100 apiece) to someone, and rebalanced everything, and put the two replacement tires on. They actually told me straight up that the wheel guy wasn't able to get them perfectly straight, but honestly I've had the car up to at least 100 on occasion and have not noticed a hint of vibration. That was almost a year ago and I've still had no more trouble.

In the end, I think you need to go to someone with the right equipment and experience to really solve these problems. Vibrations are hard to identify and fix and dealers don't specialize in this.


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## BrettInLJ (Oct 3, 2003)

Thats scary that you would get out of round tires from TireRack. They advertise that they inspect all tires for this kind of thing before they are shipped out.

I had this problem once with one of the S03 tires I special ordered from Costco, and they replaced it right away... I was going to order from TireRack next time just to avoid the hassle since I thought they checked ahead of time.

I agree that this problem is very annoying on a $50k+ car. It seems very common. BMW should offer free labor to replace bushings and/or control arms for cars with this problem.


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

BrettInLJ said:


> Thats scary that you would get out of round tires from TireRack. They advertise that they inspect all tires for this kind of thing before they are shipped out.


:dunno: maybe they could be damaged in shipping? Mine were S03's also, maybe they have a high rate of manufacturing defects. Love the tires though.. no comparison to stock contis.



BrettInLJ said:


> I agree that this problem is very annoying on a $50k+ car. It seems very common. BMW should offer free labor to replace bushings and/or control arms for cars with this problem.


That presumes that this is the cause of the problem.. in my case, it had nothing to do with it. I think the reason this is common is because the tolerances are very tight on these cars. The high priced aluminum wheels get bent very easily, the big rotors warp easily (e.g. as evidenced by the fact that BMW generally changes rotors and brakes at the same time on 330's, as they usually are at the edge of thickness tolerance by the time the brakes are done), and so on.


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## jun (Oct 10, 2002)

About 3 years ago, I also had the experience of receiving out of round Bridgestone Duelers for my wife's SUV from Tirerack. Fortunately, the shop that was installing the tires had no problem getting replacement tires from Tire rack.


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2003)

We've not found that S-03's have a higher instance of defects. Like with any max performance tire, imperfections in the wheel (normally from bent wheels) can be more easily felt however.


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> We've not found that S-03's have a higher instance of defects. Like with any max performance tire, imperfections in the wheel (normally from bent wheels) can be more easily felt however.


What is the typical out-of-round rate in general out of curiousity? When this happened to me, the Tire Rack representative was very surprised that I had two bad tires , but as I said they replaced them without question.

I suspect in my case, the wheels were probably already bent, but maybe the worn out contis caused it to be less noticeable until I put the S03s on. Is it correct to assume that sidewalls become softer with use, which might cause vibrations to be less noticeable on older tires?


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## Lscman (Aug 5, 2003)

jamietre said:


> This is definitely not true..........


Guy, you're misinterpreting my post & disagreeing with your own "slant".

Again, my point was that warped rotors with excessive runout are not necessarily out-of-balance. Runout measures warpage/wobble, not balance. With all due respect, this *IS* true. A perfectly straight rotor with zero runout can exhibit severe rotational imbalance. A wobbly rotor with excessive runout can have perfect spin balance. Warpage causes brake pulsation and vibration when brakes are applied. As a rotor warps due to heat cycling, it does NOT become poorly balanced. This is precisely why automotive service shops do not balance rotors. If they wear unevenly, they are straightened and re-trued with a brake lathe. This does not cause imbalance.

A poorly-balanced rotor can definitely cause vibration with no brakes applied, although it's usually caused by other things. Rotors with balance problems are very rare and the problem exists when new. Manufacturers no longer use hammer-in balance weights between the fins of new rotors that are prone to fly or rust off. Instead, meat is cut off the outer section of the rotor to balance it. A rotor will usually remain balanced for it's whole lifespan, although it may warp or crack.


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## jamietre (Aug 16, 2002)

I am not misunderstanding you, I said in no uncertain terms that I agree with what runout measures. However, I simply don't agree with you that it is completely unrelated to likely imbalance problems. It does not "measure" imbalance, but imbalance is a possible side effect of uneven rotor wear. And this is NOT necessarily a condition that can only exist as a result of manufacture; I would argue this is very unlikely since rotors are surely tested for balance before they leave the factory.

As I said, imbalance can occur because rotors can wear unevenly. Wearing unevenly means that one part is thinner than another part. This can be measured as runout. Don't misunderstand me, runout can measure other things, and excessive runout may not definitively mean imbalance. And, yes, you can be out of balance without runout, this is not meant to be the ONLY test, but it's an easy one that MIGHT give you an indication of a problem.

All I am trying to say is that if you have a vibration problem that you are pretty sure is not driveline related, and you've balanced the wheels professionally, then rotors are a very likely next suspect. Measuring runout will at the very least give you something else to go on. If it's excessive, replace the rotors. If not, then you are no worse off than you were before.


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## crete (May 16, 2003)

Looks like I'm next up on the shimmy problem... I have the vibration in the steering wheel from 40-60mph, I feel the vibration in my seat and I see the passenger headrest vibrate as well. With a new 2003 540 with only 4450 miles on it..I'm taking it into the dealer next week.

I will see how they go about diagnosing the problem... 

I'm wondering if the vibration is occuring more on sport models than non-sport.


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## jun (Oct 10, 2002)

crete said:


> Looks like I'm next up on the shimmy problem... I have the vibration in the steering wheel from 40-60mph, I feel the vibration in my seat and I see the passenger headrest vibrate as well. With a new 2003 540 with only 4450 miles on it..I'm taking it into the dealer next week.
> 
> I will see how they go about diagnosing the problem...
> 
> I'm wondering if the vibration is occuring more on sport models than non-sport.


I had the shimmy problem since getting my 2003 540 sport last October. The then had 20 miles in it. It has been to 2 different dealers. The wheels have been balanced multiple times and the tires have been replaced with brand new tires of the same make and model. The shimmy condition improved a little bit, but it was still defitinely there. 3 days ago, I installed my new set of BBS wheels and Goodyear tires, and voila, no more shimmy. So, my shimmy problem was definitely a wheel/tire issue. Keep coming to the dealer to have your wheels balanced. If nothing works, try an independent wheel/tire shop that has a good reputation.

Good luck.


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## crete (May 16, 2003)

I just dropped my 540 at the dealer to look at the shimmy problem and they stated that if the problem is due to wheel balancing...this is NOT covered under the warranty after 2000 miles. Being that I have more than 2000 miles I have to pay $150.00 for the service.

Ouch!... Is this correct?


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## jun (Oct 10, 2002)

I am not sure how much balancing cost at the dealer. I had my problem right from the start when I got my car with 20 miles in it. You might want to try an independet tire shop also. The dealers I went to never realy solved my problem 100%.


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## joema (Aug 28, 2002)

crete said:


> ...NOT covered under the warranty after 2000 miles. Being that I have more than 2000 miles I have to pay $150.00 for the service... Is this correct?


I heard likewise from my dealer.

However it's a moot point -- your best balance will usually from a shop using a Hunter GSP9700. If your dealer doesn't have one, $150.00 is ridiculous. If he does have one, it's still excessive. Most independent shops will road force balance four tires on a GSP9700 for under $100.

See www.gsp9700.com for technical details and a locator tool for shops having this machine.

Make sure you have them write down the max radial force variation for each tire. It should be under about 20 lbs, maximum.


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## crete (May 16, 2003)

My dealer just called me back and said the shimmy problem was not due to wheel balance but low tire pressure. It appears I had 3 of 4 tires showing only 5 psi of pressure. He said he never saw this before and couldn't believe how this happen.

They added air up to 36psi and said the shimmy was not present. I wil have to see for myself once I get the car back.


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## Lscman (Aug 5, 2003)

If you don't regularly check your tire pressure, I know how it happened (lol). Radial tires lose pressure quickly. You should carry a $5 pressure gauge in your glove box and check tire pressure every 3 months or more often. Low tire pressure costs huge gobs of money in premature tire wear, fuel economy drop, bent wheels & wrecks. With 5 psi, your car handles worse than Sandford and Son's 1949 pickup truck & you could never execute a handling maneuver to avert an accident. Did you ever try to ride a bicycle with 5lbs of pressure in the tire? Something tells me you're gonna pay a pretty penny to have somebody add air to your tires (lol). 

This is, of course assuming you didn't check the pressure a month or two and somebody let it all out. If this was sabotage, I apologize for the heckling.


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## crete (May 16, 2003)

Well I just picked up my car from the dealer with 36psi of pressure in all tires. Dealer says there appears to be no damage to the tires due to riding with low pressure. Dealer thinks the shimmy problem was related to low tire pressure. I'll see how it goes over the next week or so. Got my pressure gauge and will monitor tire pressure weekly.

My dealer thinks kids were fooling around with the valve stems and since 3 of 4 tires were low, they probably had to take off quick before they made it to the fourth tire.


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## Bearcat (Oct 15, 2003)

Do they still charge you $150 to put the air in the tires? :rofl:


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## crete (May 16, 2003)

Bearcat said:


> Do they still charge you $150 to put the air in the tires? :rofl:


That's the best part of it all.. they waived the $150.00 charge, did some other repairs under warranty and threw in a full service car wash all at no charge.


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