# Fuel additives and BMW Engines(I already know manual says not to)



## Stevieg0515 (Oct 23, 2018)

I know the manual says not to put any additives into your BMW Diesel fuel but I was wondering if anyone dies to clean the carbon off of the fuel/emissions systems and if so what additive you use. Also if you have noticed a difference or not since using it and how often you use it. Not to be an ass bug if your going to write your manual says not to don***8217;t bother because I don***8217;t care what the manual says I***8217;m curious about real world experiences with it!


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

Additives and diesel engines was discussed to death on the VW diesel forum I subscribed to before BMW. no scientific tests were ever shown that showed any value to additives. If there were, why wouldn't diesel fuel suppliers add them?


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## Stevieg0515 (Oct 23, 2018)

southcoastguy said:


> Additives and diesel engines was discussed to death on the VW diesel forum I subscribed to before BMW. no scientific tests were ever shown that showed any value to additives. If there were, why wouldn't diesel fuel suppliers add them?


If you look up Shell and Mobil diesel websites they are starting at add additives to the fuel actually and and if someone knows of an additive that gets rid of carbon then I see that the value in that because it saves money because you don***8217;t have to pay to get the car on removed


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*Diesel additives are snake oil for the Gullah-bull*

Here is a list of a common diesel fuel additive ingredients. There is no "gets rid of carbon" else why pay $1K+++ for CBU removal.
Chemical name. CAS No. Concentration

Distillates, petroleum, hydrotreated light. 64742-47-8 70-90%

Naphtha, petroleum, heavy aromatic 64742-94-5 5-10%

Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether 111-76-2 5-10%

Trimethylbenzenes (mixed) 25551-13-7 1-3%

1,2,4 Trimethylbenzene. 95-63-6 0.1-0.9%

1,3,5 Trimethylbenzene 108-67-8. 0.1-0.6%

Naphthalene. 91-20-3 0.1-0.3%

Cumene. 98-82-8. 0.1-0.2%


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*Here's another*

Name
Distillates, petroleum, hydrotreated middle
Product identifier
%
(CAS-No.) 64742-46-7
56.00
Stoddard solvent
(CAS No) 8052-41-3
29.33
Petroleum distillates, hydrotreated light
(CAS No) 64742-47-8
13.80
Benzene, 1,2,4-trimethyl-
(CAS No) 95-63-6
3.63
Solvent naphtha, petroleum, light aromatic
(CAS-No.) 64742-95-6
2.85
Nonane
(CAS No) 111-84-2
1.38
Xylenes (o-, m-, p- isomers)
Naphthalene
(CAS No) 1330-20-7
0.64
(CAS No) 91-20-3
0.46
Ethylbenzene
(CAS No) 100-41-4
0.14


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*Here's AmSoil*

Naphthalene, Phenol, 4-dodecyl-, branched Cumene, Ethylenediamine
1 -5 1 -5 0.1 - 1 0.1 - 1
64742-95-6 95-63-6 64742-94-5 1330-20-7 91-20-3 210555-94-5 98-82-8 107-15-3


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## Stevieg0515 (Oct 23, 2018)

Doug Huffman said:


> Here is a list of a common diesel fuel additive ingredients. There is no "gets rid of carbon" else why pay $1K+++ for CBU removal.
> Chemical name. CAS No. Concentration
> 
> Distillates, petroleum, hydrotreated light. 64742-47-8 70-90%
> ...


I wasn't talking about what additives they put in the actual diesel fuel, I was talking about additives you buy at autozone that clean your engine and fuel system and possibly emissions system.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Sort of the BG intake cleaning chemical procedure?

I was tempted to use this to keep my intake clear of carbon buildup (CBU - direct injection engines only) but so far with several diesels going more than 100,000 miles I haven't had any issues with CBU. I take long trips at full engine/oil temperature and only use branded "top tier brand" diesel from a busy station and proper premium engine oil (LL04 in the case of BMW diesels I've owned).

Being a trained biochemist, it seems possible to me that additives, especially ones based on metallic polarization adhesion principles (which is how Techron works for gassers) may actually contribute to CBU. There really hasn't been molecular proof of what causes CBU - just educated guesses so far - with some additive choices better than others as well as some base stock better than others.

PL


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## Stevieg0515 (Oct 23, 2018)

Pierre Louis said:


> Sort of the BG intake cleaning chemical procedure?
> 
> I was tempted to use this to keep my intake clear of carbon buildup (CBU - direct injection engines only) but so far with several diesels going more than 100,000 miles I haven't had any issues with CBU. I take long trips at full engine/oil temperature and only use branded "top tier brand" diesel from a busy station and proper premium engine oil (LL04 in the case of BMW diesels I've owned).
> 
> ...


I only use shell for filling up my car but I***8217;m going to switch over to Mobil once they have their synergy diesel out( they said it will be at all Mobil Exxon gas stations by mid 2019). I feel like that and the shell diesel fit are going to be the 2 ***8220;premium***8221; diesels in the US, but shell only has the diesel fit out in Washington state right now. I totally wish they would use it in the north easy because I like Shell fuel a lot!

https://www.exxon.com/en/synergy-diesel-efficient-passenger


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## SmokinCummins (Sep 16, 2018)

A good additive is worth the cost. A good additive will increase pump and injector life due to the increase in lubricity. The seals will last longer, and the cetane boost will help with power and cold starts. 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

SmokinCummins said:


> A good additive is worth the cost. A good additive will increase pump and injector life due to the increase in lubricity. The seals will last longer, and the cetane boost will help with power and cold starts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


I***8217;m all ears. Without the advertising hype, good data (anecdotes are not data) would be very helpful. I***8217;m not holding my breath.


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## SmokinCummins (Sep 16, 2018)

Pierre Louis said:


> I***8217;m all ears. Without the advertising hype, good data (anecdotes are not data) would be very helpful. I***8217;m not holding my breath.


What are you wanting to gain from running additives? There is plenty of data out there on fuel and additive packages as well as supplemental additives.

Will additives benefit a vehicle if you plan to sell it before 100,000 miles - not typically. But when you stretch the miles out, that's when you see the benefit from supplemental additives. This is especially true in HPCR fuel systems.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

SmokinCummins said:


> What are you wanting to gain from running additives? There is plenty of data out there on fuel and additive packages as well as supplemental additives.
> 
> Will additives benefit a vehicle if you plan to sell it before 100,000 miles - not typically. But when you stretch the miles out, that's when you see the benefit from supplemental additives. This is especially true in HPCR fuel systems.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


With all due respect, no such data exists. There are plenty of opinions, however.

To be specific, using a top-tier brand of fuel which presumably comes with adequate additives to raw diesel, there really is no long-term data that scientifically shows improvement in longevity or cost-effectiveness. Gasoline additives such as Techron have been shown to be advantageous to certain types of engines and are also found in top-tier brand fuels making it unnecessary to use aftermarket additives.

Cheers


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## SmokinCummins (Sep 16, 2018)

So you are specifically taking about long term testing over hundreds of thousands of miles? I don't know of any long term lab tests being done. 

There are, however, plenty of laboratory tests proving the effectiveness of a strong additive package. Sales propaganda and opinions aside, lab results separate the quality additives from those that are a waste of money. 

Remember, the only differance between a top tier fuel and a low grade fuel is the additive package. The fuel comes from the same pipeline, the additive package is added between the pipeline and the pump. This is where I have seen the long term damage being done. Many different customers, but repeatable results. 
Logical, yes.
Scientific and lab documented, no.

Understand, this is just for information and I'm not trying to start an argument. I have better things to do than argue in a forum. 

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## SmokinCummins (Sep 16, 2018)

I just reread what you posted....
You are talking about adding additional additives to a top tier fuel which already comes with a strong additive package. I 100% agree with that. Additional additives are redundant with no real benefit. 

I use additives because a top tier fuel may not be what you are pumping in tank - even though that's what the pump says. 


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

SmokinCummins said:


> I just reread what you posted....
> You are talking about adding additional additives to a top tier fuel which already comes with a strong additive package. I 100% agree with that. Additional additives are redundant with no real benefit.
> 
> I use additives because a top tier fuel may not be what you are pumping in tank - even though that's what the pump says.
> ...


Thanks.

So what you and many others are saying: you don't trust fuel suppliers.

OTOH BMW, Mercedes, VW, etc. say explicitly not to use additives. Presumably they have a reason other than the "great unknown" of potions such as "Magic Mystery Oil" etc.

So is everyone not trusting the automotive manufacturers too?

My theory is that BMW, for example, did actually test drive its new diesel engines before introducing them to North America in 2009, and found them to be within reliability parameters. How would a company do this? With a "top tier" brand s.a. Chevron or Shell, of course. Companies have done this with gasoline engines and Chevron for example. Why should they use any discount or random brand given the number of variables involved!?

I've also stated that the heavy truck diesel market is different than light truck/automotive diesel. If you are running million mile engines in a fleet on off-brand fuel to save money, sure, using a well-researched additive package may make sense, but to my knowledge this is not universally done.

I understand if a problem is found that can be solved by additizing current fuel, it is probably OK. But using lab tests is not the gold standard for scientific evaluation - real life testing is.

PL


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## SmokinCummins (Sep 16, 2018)

I would imagine the reason they say to not use additives is they can not control the additives you buy. There are many additives on the market that make the fuel worse. MMO is one of them. 

As a rule, fuel from the pump should be sufficient. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, and the cost for repairs is astronomical on a HPCR fuel system. Additives are cheap insurance. 

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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

SmokinCummins said:


> I would imagine the reason they say to not use additives is they can not control the additives you buy. There are many additives on the market that make the fuel worse. MMO is one of them.
> 
> As a rule, fuel from the pump should be sufficient. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, and the cost for repairs is astronomical on a HPCR fuel system. Additives are cheap insurance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


My view is that if this was indeed a fact, companies would rally behind official recommended products just like they did when recommending Techron for intake valve deposits or synthetic oil for gummed up hydraulic lifters. This has not happened for much of the "insurance" additives that many seem to believe in.

BG is about as close to "real insurance" as far as guaranteed products go, since they back up their customer engines if problems occur. My private mechanic likes them.

PL


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## Stevieg0515 (Oct 23, 2018)

SmokinCummins said:


> Pierre Louis said:
> 
> 
> > I'm all ears. Without the advertising hype, good data (anecdotes are not data) would be very helpful. I'm not holding my breath.
> ...


I put 29,000 miles on my X5 in 8 months so I***8217;m up to 128,000 and I do not plan on selling it, I plan on having it until it no longer runs which I***8217;m hoping sense it***8217;s diesel that will be quite a few hundred thousand miles from now lol so what I***8217;m looking to gain from an additive is a very clean and kubricated engine that lasts for a very very long time! I also want to delete the emissions system because that***8217;s the only thing that has caused problems so far but I can only imagine how dirty the engine must be from reburning the exhaust!


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## Stevieg0515 (Oct 23, 2018)

Pierre Louis said:


> SmokinCummins said:
> 
> 
> > What are you wanting to gain from running additives? There is plenty of data out there on fuel and additive packages as well as supplemental additives.
> ...


You said cheers so I***8217;m going to assume that you are from the UK and do not live in the US. My understanding is that their are some top tier diesel fuels in the US but not everywhere has them and also from my understanding from reading is that most diesel fuels don***8217;t have additives. When Mobil synergy diesel comes out and is at most Mobil stations I won***8217;t need sedative because the synergy diesel has additives in it. I only use shell because they have top tier gasoline so I assume that they have better diesel that might have additives in it(their diesel fit does but is only sold in Washington state) so that***8217;s why I was wondering about putting an additive to clean the diesel and engine because if you are from the UK my friend lives their and said that they have low grade, mid grade and top grade diesel like our gasoline is here at most gas stations.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Stevieg0515 said:


> You said cheers so I'm going to assume that you are from the UK and do not live in the US. My understanding is that their are some top tier diesel fuels in the US but not everywhere has them and also from my understanding from reading is that most diesel fuels don't have additives. When Mobil synergy diesel comes out and is at most Mobil stations I won't need sedative because the synergy diesel has additives in it. I only use shell because they have top tier gasoline so I assume that they have better diesel that might have additives in it(their diesel fit does but is only sold in Washington state) so that's why I was wondering about putting an additive to clean the diesel and engine because if you are from the UK my friend lives their and said that they have low grade, mid grade and top grade diesel like our gasoline is here at most gas stations.


I live in the South East US where people tend to drive long distances in very warm conditions compared to Europe and the UK.

I am philosophically against adding anything to the best fuel I can buy at the best price because it seems unnecessary and I lament lack of evidence to do so. But, my German mechanic likes additives so it becomes more of a personal choice and I can accept that.

PL


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## SmokinCummins (Sep 16, 2018)

Stevieg0515 said:


> I put 29,000 miles on my X5 in 8 months so I***8217;m up to 128,000 and I do not plan on selling it, I plan on having it until it no longer runs which I***8217;m hoping sense it***8217;s diesel that will be quite a few hundred thousand miles from now lol so what I***8217;m looking to gain from an additive is a very clean and kubricated engine that lasts for a very very long time! I also want to delete the emissions system because that***8217;s the only thing that has caused problems so far but I can only imagine how dirty the engine must be from reburning the exhaust!


One of the best is Stanadyne. The performance formula is the one used for most situations. It has all the additives that turn a regular fuel into a top tier. If you are looking for a specific additive, they have other additives as well.

There have been a lot of new additives that have hit the market over the last few years. I need to get up to date on those, but Stanadyne is hard to beat.

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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*Stanadyne Safety Data Sheets with ingredients. Not much variation!*



SmokinCummins said:


> One of the best is Stanadyne. The performance formula is the one used for most situations. It has all the additives that turn a regular fuel into a top tier. If you are looking for a specific additive, they have other additives as well.
> 
> There have been a lot of new additives that have hit the market over the last few years. I need to get up to date on those, but Stanadyne is hard to beat.


https://www.diamonddiesel.com/pages/stanadyne-safety-data-sheets/


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