# Why don't Audi's sell?



## 323i Man (May 10, 2003)

I have always wondered why BMW's closest German cousins (performance oriented, luxurious), Audis, don't sell well in this country. Last month, Audi sold just over 4,000 cars. Audi's have the image, performance, and heritage to make them very desirable in my mind. That's why I bought an A4 over a 3. I love Bimmers but they are too commonplace today, especially the 3. 

Reading the threads on this board that pertain to Audi, I noticed a lot of people believe that Audi's have quality problems. That is true to some extent but they have really improved them, and after nearly two years with my A4, I have had no quality problems.

Audi's newest models have garnered much praise (A3, A4, and A6) and so far in Germany are outselling BMW and Mercedes. Here, that's not the case. 

So my question is, when you bought you BMW, did you ever consider an Audi? As a BMW owner, what is your perception of Audi and why in your mind don't they sell better?


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## Schnell5 (May 21, 2004)

Audi has come a long way in my opinion. They are getting better and better and now faster and faster. I think they are starting to appeal to more. 

Personally, I have always felt Audi's were much like their sister company VW. Which I guess they are. As I knew Audi's, I remembered them being not so reliable. This stigma stuck with me. 

Now, enter 2006 when my lovely wife gets a job at VW/Audi. Wether I like or not, I have started to study the Audi models a little more closer and actually am very impressed. I'm really eager to drive a S4 or better yet, RS4 or 6. 

In Utah, an Audi is a more practical choice due to the Quattro sake of it. 

If BMW continues to produce these cars that in MY opinion are getting ugly and uglier, I may just have to ponder an Audi. Of course we would be able to utilize the employee purchase/lease program so that may influence me a little more.


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## TXE39 (Oct 2, 2003)

When I bought my BMW the dealer was a lot more convenient to my home. The nearest BMW dealer is only 3 miles away...the nearest Merc dealer about 15 and the nearest Audi about 35.

Now there is an Audi dealer the same distance as Merc. I will take a look at them next time. Hopefully there will be an S6 Avant in the new body style.

As far as reliability I hear nothing but good on recent years. That said I have a 2000 528iA and my cousin has a 2000 A6 (V6). I have 75K miles. He has about 45K. I've done a lot less work to my BMW than he has on his Audi. We are both still under warranty and while my CPO warranty has covered everything that has ever come up (very little) his has covered nothing. He called me last week and told me he had spent $2500 on the car that week and he didn't even know anything was wrong with it. He just took it in for service and to have everything checked out.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

The biggest problem for Audi continues to be overcoming
the stigma / bad reputation that led to the brand's demise
following the "60 Minutes" Audi 5000 debacle of the late
1980's. Amazing, isn't it?


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

In terms of prestige, MB and BMW are top dogs in the US. Lexus is third but not at the same level. Audi may make excellent and sporty/luxurious cars, but I think people don't have room in their brains for more than 3 top dogs, and they're still fixated on perceptions of Audis as unreliable and as upscale VWs.


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## 323i Man (May 10, 2003)

Jon said:


> The biggest problem for Audi continues to be overcoming
> the stigma / bad reputation that led to the brand's demise
> following the "60 Minutes" Audi 5000 debacle of the late
> 1980's. Amazing, isn't it?


Yeah, and that wasn't even real. Dumbass American drivers weren't used to having the brake and gas pedals so close together. Even today, when you start an Audi, the trip computer says "Apply brake before shifting into gear."

Also, I think I'd put Audi and Infiniti together on a rung just below BMW, MB, and Lexus.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

323i Man said:


> Yeah, and that wasn't even real. Dumbass American drivers weren't used to having the brake and gas pedals so close together. Even today, when you start an Audi, the trip computer says "Apply brake before shifting into gear."
> 
> Also, I think I'd put Audi and Infiniti together on a rung just below BMW, MB, and Lexus.


I like Infinitis, but I dunno if they're quite as good as Audis just quite yet. When they make a Q car that actually sells, I'll change my mind. This coming from a Nissan shareholder.


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## 323i Man (May 10, 2003)

swchang said:


> I like Infinitis, but I dunno if they're quite as good as Audis just quite yet. When they make a Q car that actually sells, I'll change my mind. This coming from a Nissan shareholder.


Yeah, they're totally not...I take that back. Audi has established 'S' and 'RS' brands like M and AMG. So if I had to do a "prestige" pyramid it would look like this:

1. PORSCHE, BMW, MB
1.5 Lexus
2. Audi, Cadillac, Jag
3. Infiniti 
4. Acura
5. Volvo, Lincoln
6. Saab

Audi's really do have more of a younger appeal also, which is a good thing. In 10, 15 years that's who'll have the cash to buy luxo cars. I'm 20 and my peers love my car.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

323i Man said:


> Yeah, they're totally not...I take that back. Audi has established 'S' and 'RS' brands like M and AMG. So if I had to do a "prestige" pyramid it would look like this:
> 
> 1. BMW, MB, Lexus
> 2. Cadillac, Audi
> ...


I mostly agree. I'd put Lexus below MB and BMW, and I'd put MB slightly above BMW. Everything else looks pretty good. You did forget Jaguar, though, which I'd put on the same level as Audi and Caddy.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

swchang said:


> I mostly agree. I'd put Lexus below MB and BMW, and I'd put MB slightly above BMW. Everything else looks pretty good.* You did forget Jaguar, though, which I'd put on the same level as Audi and Caddy.*


I don't know about Jaguar... my "luxury brand yardstick" tell me that if I see a so called luxury brand in excessive quantities in used car lots, the kind that you find in lower income areas, then that brand is irrelevant notwithstanding the cars itself.

I've seen so many Jaguars in those kind of used car lots that is not even funny. And the mere fact that Jaguar has lost money every single year in Ford's hands tells me that this is a walking dead brand that is not even worthy of being in that list above.

They need to do way more than aluminum bodied cars to get out of that hole; Cadillac has done it coming from deeply crappier cars than Jaguars ever had so it should not be impossible...


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

I had a 99 audi A4 1.8T, it was a nice car, interior quality and exterior design was actually a bit nicer then our bimmer, good gas mileage too. But our bimmer drives and handles a lot better. So performance is the main reason for preferring bmw. like you do, I liked how audi is not as popular and does not have the bmw stigma. Nowadays road feel and handling is the only reason I would put up with german reliabity and maintenence cost thus BMW or porsche.


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

I looked at the Audi A4 back in 2002 before buying my 325i. To get the equivalent performance of the BMW 325 you had to go to the A4 3.0 (instead of the 1.8T). This was more expensive and you lost fuel efficiency. I guess they're pretty heavy. The interior was nice, but so was the e46's. 

Both cars were more attractive looking than the current generation's offerings (what's up with Audi's new noses?)


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## TJS///M3 (Sep 13, 2004)

I purchased an A4Q 2.8L back in 1996 when they first came out. And that was coming from a VW (I know, not much of a change). I loved the A4, handled pretty good, power was adequate, and it was 4 doors. The thing was unstoppable in the snow - I could go anywhere, even during the middle of a snowstorm.

But, when all of the little problems started to haunt me, like suspension problems, CV joint problems, I decided that it was time to let it go. I got simply DESTROYED on resell value. For a car that I spent a good deal of money on, it sure wasnt worth much after 3 years and 60k miles. And I had those problems fixed for a good bit of $$ too. Maintenance on Audis is not cheap either.

That's why I bought a BMW to replace it, and why I'm still in a BMW (On my third now, and I cant see switching).

The new audis are appealing, but I know better. Dealers are trying to hype them up to be something they are not - a top tier luxury/performance car with the price to go with it.

No thanks.


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## Schnell5 (May 21, 2004)

I'll agree with on the price of them. It's been rather shocking to see some of the price tags on them. Really inflated. 

It somewhat like the Phaeton Volkswagen made. A luxurious V-dub.  It's sad cause it is a nice car, but still carries the VW emblem and that would be hard for me to swallow paying 80,90, or 100K for. :dunno:


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## TopazTim325 (May 20, 2002)

When I was shopping back in 2001, my 1st choice was the 325 (which I ended up buying), 2nd choice was the IS300 (until I drove it) and 3rd choice was an A4. I loved Audi's design philosophy during those years and the quality of the interior bits is, IMHO, nicer than some of the pieces on my e46. 

Ultimately, the Bimmer was a much more enjoyable driving experience. The steering was tighter, the brakes more immediate, and the switchgear had a more substantial feel. While the Audi was very nice (and less expensive), it just didn't have the Bimmer's 'Je ne sais quoi'.


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## Rmart (Feb 20, 2002)

Audis are excellent cars. But I think the main issue is front-wheel-drive. People that are shopping for a premium German automobile do not want the economic production and packaging solution of FWD. And Quattro does not really matter. The cas is still FWD first and foremost, with AWD added on.


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## 323i Man (May 10, 2003)

Rmart said:


> Audis are excellent cars. But I think the main issue is front-wheel-drive. People that are shopping for a premium German automobile do not want the economic production and packaging solution of FWD. And Quattro does not really matter. The cas is still FWD first and foremost, with AWD added on.


No it's not. Audi's are slightly front biased, due to the nose heaviness, but the Quattro is equally distributed on all four wheels. The Quattro system is the most advanced AWD system on any luxury nameplate...they've done it since 1980.

Judging by the responses here, Audi will never be BMW. I think they have an appeal all their own.


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## Terry Kennedy (Sep 21, 2002)

323i Man said:


> So my question is, when you bought you BMW, did you ever consider an Audi? As a BMW owner, what is your perception of Audi and why in your mind don't they sell better?


Audi was one of the brands I was seriously considering when I was shopping for my most recent car (purchased a new 325xiT in 9/2002). When I sat in various Audi models, my right knee was wedged between the steering wheel and the center console (I'm 6'2", mostly in my legs, and the console curves to the left, so the passenger has more leg space than the driver, for some reason). I told the salesman that no matter how much I might like their cars, if I couldn't fit in them I wasn't buying one. The salesman said "yeah, we get that a lot".


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## tamum3 (Feb 27, 2004)

I think it depends on where you are. Overall I dont see that many Audi's in Texas, but in Colorado they are all over the place. I dont want FWD and have no need for Quattro so most of their cars dont interest me that much....would be more likely to look at one if I lived in area with nasty winters.


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## MR325iT (Feb 21, 2002)

I had a '96 A4 and really enjoyed it. It was reasonably quick, very well put together, and (for most of it's life) reliable. Started having serious problems around thr 70,000 mile mark, but that wasn't totally unexpected. I would consider Audi again, though a) the new grille is kind of a turn off for me and b) they're priced a little higher than they should be (I recently saw an A4 pretty well loaded for about $40K, and that was for the 4 cylinder - I nearly fell over).


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## Watchdog (Jan 23, 2005)

I've always noticed that BMW far outsold Audi in both Canada and the US.

I'm quite surprised at those German figures, are you sure they're correct? 

I own both an Audi and a BMW and like both cars for different reasons. 

I think the question you asked could be asked a different way. Why do the Germans buy more Audis than BMWs, but here in North America BMW outsells Audi by a huge margin.

I have no idea why that would be.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Watchdog said:


> I've always noticed that BMW far outsold Audi in both Canada and the US.
> 
> I'm quite surprised at those German figures, are you sure they're correct?
> 
> ...


Because one lot are American, and the other lot are German? You may as well ask why Germans don't speak US English . Audis being a bit cheaper, and not having had the stigma of the so-called unintended-acceleration syndrome which happened 150 years ago, are probably also something to do with it. Also, neither brand is as "premium" as they are in the US, so the markets you are comparing are not the same.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

I didn't know the numbers for Audi was so low ... I am definitely surprised but since their price has come up to almost BMW pricing I guess people not in snow belts are going with the bimmers.

BMW's are more of a 'drivers car' than the Audi's but not by much. I love my A6 and I love the quattro ... they have really done a great job on it from a peformance aspect and the interior blows away the 5er. 
Besides for the MB E500 4matic it is the only one in it's class that you can get an AWD 8 cylinder.

I have to admit I am really hooked on the quattro so unless BMW made the 550i with AWD I will most likely get another one next year.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

Watchdog said:


> I've always noticed that BMW far outsold Audi in both Canada and the US.
> 
> I'm quite surprised at those German figures, are you sure they're correct?
> 
> ...


:dunno: there seems to be a gazillion a4's around. also audi in china (and vw for that matter) sell in large volume. but that i think is more on political reasons.


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## Watchdog (Jan 23, 2005)

andy_thomas said:


> Because one lot are American, and the other lot are German? You may as well ask why Germans don't speak US English . Audis being a bit cheaper, and not having had the stigma of the so-called unintended-acceleration syndrome which happened 150 years ago, are probably also something to do with it. Also, neither brand is as "premium" as they are in the US, so the markets you are comparing are not the same.


I guess that's my question Andy, we know there's a difference but what causes such a big difference.

What are the "premium" brands in Europe and the UK? From some of your other posts it sounds like BMWs cost more in Europe than in North America if you do a straight currency exchange calculation. Are incomes that much higher in Europe that cars that are considered premium in North America aren't in Europe.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

323i Man said:


> I have always wondered why BMW's closest German cousins (performance oriented, luxurious), Audis, don't sell well in this country. Last month, Audi sold just over 4,000 cars. Audi's have the image, performance, and heritage to make them very desirable in my mind. That's why I bought an A4 over a 3. I love Bimmers but they are too commonplace today, especially the 3.
> 
> Reading the threads on this board that pertain to Audi, I noticed a lot of people believe that Audi's have quality problems. That is true to some extent but they have really improved them, and after nearly two years with my A4, I have had no quality problems.
> 
> ...


Sure, absolutely. I give much respect to Audi's and seriously considered an A4.

However, I never even went to test drive one.

Here's why.

I'm older (45+) and remember stories of Audi's and "sudden acceleration". Totally bogus and untrue, but to many in my generation, you say "Audi" and that's what streaks through your mind.

Secondly, I hung around a bunch of Audi / A4 boards in early 2003. I was trying to get an idea of the car's relability. In my case I owned a rather problematic '99 Benz C280. I did not want to repeat the experience. Basically, at the time I was lurking, I heard story after story of the initial pleasure of driving an Audi was replaced by mechanical problems of one type of another.

Thirdly, the only Audi dealer experience I had here in Florida was totally negative. We went up to a VW/Chrysler dealer in Sanford to test drive a Minivan in 1998. I was glad to get out there with my skin. It was the kind of place where I half expected them to "lose" my keys and hold me there with my infant son. Yuck.

Fourth, the only other Audi dealer here in Central Fla was way down in tourist land. So to make a return trip to the dealer was a Major Pain.

Hence, the bimmer:

- Provides a dynamic driving environment like few others
- Acceptable tradeoff between reliability, performance and cost
- Very convenient dealership w/free loanders
- Free maintenance
- Many like minded owners (e.g. Bimmerfest :thumbup
- BMWCCA and Roundel magazine, a real unappreciated diamond of a mag imho


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Rob325_in_AZ said:


> Wow - you're story is nearly identical to mine. I had preconceived notions about BMWs and their negative image. I also didn't realize how much I enjoyed driving until I drove a driver's car.


:stupid: I did forget this in my post above - but very true in my case.

Bimmers (esp 3ers) in the 80s were not seen in a positive light -- reflected "sudden" wealth and all that, posuer's cars etc.

Once I drove a bimmer I was hooked..


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Watchdog said:


> I guess that's my question Andy, we know there's a difference but what causes such a big difference.
> 
> What are the "premium" brands in Europe and the UK? From some of your other posts it sounds like BMWs cost more in Europe than in North America if you do a straight currency exchange calculation. Are incomes that much higher in Europe that cars that are considered premium in North America aren't in Europe.


If you do a truly like-for-like comparison - a 325i, same equipment, without taxes, registration etc. - the difference is not as great as you might think. But European market cars come less well-equipped in the first place. However BMWs are far more common (it was until recently the #2 best-selling car in Germany, a position it's held for several years) and don't forget that what is entry-level in the US is high-end here - a 325i is for someone quite successful with reasonably high amounts of disposable income. And disposable incomes are definitely lower in European countries (although this is not like for like as Europeans tend to pay higher taxes to cover state healthcare, pensions, childcare and so on).

So the differences are manifold. In the UK BMW is more of a premium brand than it is in Germany, and the same would probably apply in other markets like France and Italy but the whole concept of a "premium brand" seems to have less weight attached to it there than it does in the US, the UK etc., even Japan. Also, in the UK VW is seen as having a mild premium, which puts Audi at least on a par with BMW, if not higher.

In the end I bet Audi would have no problem pitching itself as a BMW equivalent if it wasn't for the whole Audi 5000 thing in the 80s. (Consumers really should have gotten over that by now - but I wonder how much of it is really does influence sales.) As BMW becomes as popular in the US _per capita_ as it has in the UK - BMW represented nearly 7% of the market in 2005 - drivers looking for something a bit different might move to Audi if they think they have a reason.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Audis are losing the free maintenance? Damn, that's the nail in the coffin for the A3, might as well buy the GTI 5 door instead.


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

andy_thomas said:


> But European market cars come less well-equipped in the first place. However BMWs are far more common (it was until recently the #2 best-selling car in Germany, a position it's held for several years) and don't forget that what is *entry-level in the US* is high-end here - a *325i* is for someone quite successful with reasonably high amounts of disposable income. And disposable incomes are definitely lower in European countries (although this is not like for like as Europeans tend to pay higher taxes to cover state healthcare, pensions, childcare and so on)..


I basically agree with what you are saying, except saying that BMW's are entry level in this country. Almost everywhere in the U.S., any new BMW is mark of sucess. Entry level buyers in this country buy American, Korean, or Japanese cars now that VW has moved up market.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

cwsqbm said:


> Almost everywhere in the U.S., any new BMW is mark of sucess.


In an America where the average person has close to $10k in credit card debt, and the savings rate is 0%, a new BMW is not a sign of anything.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> Audis are losing the free maintenance? Damn, that's the nail in the coffin for the A3, might as well buy the GTI 5 door instead.


I think it starts MY07,if so then you can still get a MY06 with it


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> In an America where the average person has close to $10k in credit card debt, and the savings rate is 0%, a new BMW is not a sign of anything.


I think it depends on where you're coming from. In Small Town, America, I would think it still is. I find it rare to see any non-70's domestic pickup or large sedan when I drive through small towns.


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## BMNewbie (Sep 12, 2004)

cwsqbm said:


> I basically agree with what you are saying, except saying that BMW's are entry level in this country. Almost everywhere in the U.S., any new BMW is mark of sucess. Entry level buyers in this country buy American, Korean, or Japanese cars now that VW has moved up market.


I think Andy meant entry level 3er in the US is the 325i as compared to Europe, Asia and Australia where it is the 320i.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

BMNewbie said:


> I think Andy meant entry level 3er in the US is the 325i as compared to Europe, Asia and Australia where it is the 320i.


You're quite right - I was talking about entry-level BMWs, not entry-level motoring (which varies so vastly around the planet there is no point in making comparisons). Though the entry-level E90 3er in Europe is actually the 318i/318d, or 316i if you are talking about the E46. Though the concept of an "entry-level 3er" is a bit moot when there is an entire range of cars below it.

To have a 200+ bhp, 150+ mph, three-litre BMW as an "entry-level" BMW is a bit strange to me, though I know why they do it that way.


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## LoveTAH (Dec 25, 2005)

Audi is going to be alright. They have a lot of momentum right now and every year brings an increase in sales. This year will be a good one for them, thanks to the Q, which should be a hit for them.


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