# SES light, NOX sensor



## riskybz (Sep 23, 2010)

About two weeks ago, a SES light popped up on my 2011 335d with 16k miles . Ran the CAN tool diagnostic and got a code that I could not find a description for. Deleted the code but it came right back. Drove the car for about 200 miles before getting in for service, no noticeable issues except a slight stutter at the first start up of the day.

The SA notified me that it was a NOX sensor that had failed. The dealership in Phoenix did not have the part, so they had to bring it in from California the next day. Sensor was replaced and no further codes so far. 


Anyone else have this happen?:dunno:


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I have seen a few people on here talk about getting the NOX sensor(s) replaced.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

riskybz said:


> About two weeks ago, a SES light popped up on my 2011 335d with 16k miles . Ran the CAN tool diagnostic and got a code that I could not find a description for. Deleted the code but it came right back. Drove the car for about 200 miles before getting in for service, no noticeable issues except a slight stutter at the first start up of the day.
> 
> The SA notified me that it was a NOX sensor that had failed. The dealership in Phoenix did not have the part, so they had to bring it in from California the next day. Sensor was replaced and no further codes so far.
> 
> Anyone else have this happen?:dunno:


I had something similar that I posted on already. Mine was the DPF/DEF control module. Threw out one then later three or more alarms with SES light. i used my Garmin Ecoroute to read and reset but it did not reset.

What was your code number/nomenclature?

A NOx sensor is no big deal, quite common in all cars.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

NOX at 16k miles though is not common


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

NOX sensor? yeah, two of them. And the catalyst...and a slew of other stuff.

http://www.xoutpost.com/846433-post20.html

I actually suspect at the root of these "diesel emissions" failures, you have BMW software which is crap- they trip errors which are not errors, and they fail diagnostic routines, replace parts and refail the same (flawed) diagnostic routines... I also suspect BMW is working of fixing their software and rolling out updates for both cars AND their test routines....

A


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## edwin191 (Apr 27, 2011)

I had two NOX sensors replaced in my '11 335d this week, 14k on the car. While there, the SA mentioned that there's a recall coming of some sort...they had no details of any kind re: the recall, but the notice is supposedly due out soon.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

edwin191 said:


> I had two NOX sensors replaced in my '11 335d this week, 14k on the car. While there, the SA mentioned that there's a recall coming of some sort...they had no details of any kind re: the recall, but the notice is supposedly due out soon.


Back in January I was told the same thing about a recall coming "soon"


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

Same is issue for me at about 7,000 kms. Dealership replaced them as the car was under warranty.


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## HIREN (Jul 14, 2006)

What was your trouble code? Did you use a BT Tool?
I just had a SES light come on as well, comes back after clearing. Mine is 4bcd on the BT Tool.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

HIREN said:


> What was your trouble code? Did you use a BT Tool?
> I just had a SES light come on as well, comes back after clearing. Mine is 4bcd on the BT Tool.


I got the tool after the fact. I still have the documentation from the dealer after I got the car. I could look at that for you if you'd like and see what fault code they found.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

This is the ONLY recall I found on DIESELS thru NHTSA:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/results.cfm

Only the x5d has had problems year 2011, the year 2010 had NO recalls on 335 series whatsover!!!


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

But I went to aUTOPEDIA and found NTSB forum and found that INDEED 2010 3 series had its issues and a few i might add!!

http://autopedia.com/html/NHTSAtsb.html

I just went there and 2010 supposedly had and no have issues???? WTF you guys check it out!!!


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)




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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

So, a NOX sensor. Sh^t happens.

I've been getting a triangle with exclamation in it, check the services and it shows what look like an oil can?:dunno:

Now I have to go read the manual to figure out what that means. It comes and goes, and my next service (3rd) is getting close now.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> So, a NOX sensor. Sh^t happens.
> 
> I've been getting a triangle with exclamation in it, check the services and it shows what look like an oil can?:dunno:
> 
> Now I have to go read the manual to figure out what that means. It comes and goes, and my next service (3rd) is getting close now.


It can mean a number of things but the first thing I'd check is the oil level. That is what it was in my car when it happened and my light was much like yours. There is an additional oil warning that can show up center of the dash but that happened once during all of it and only after an engine shutdown and was a quick flash on the screen. You could be like a whopping 0.5 quart low or something to trigger the light.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Just read the manual, you are correct sir, low oil level.

I did not know you could read the level as well. I'll have to give that a try today as well.

It seemed to be intermittent, so that makes sense, parking angle etc....

So, it looks like the "D" has sucked down a bit of oil since last service some 12k miles ago. Not bad.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Just read the manual, you are correct sir, low oil level.
> 
> I did not know you could read the level as well. I'll have to give that a try today as well.
> 
> ...


You read the level via the dipstick tube. What I was saying is the display on the dash in some cases will actually say you have low oil level. I went for awhile with the ! randomly coming on and was baffled what the issue was. Then one day I turned the car off and really quickly I saw my center display in the gauges say something about low oil. At that point I realized what the ! probably was and I checked the dipstick, sure enough it was a little low. For me I think it was the first dealership failed to fill it up all the way because it happened much sooner than 12k for me.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> You read the level via the dipstick tube. What I was saying is the display on the dash in some cases will actually say you have low oil level. I went for awhile with the ! randomly coming on and was baffled what the issue was. Then one day I turned the car off and really quickly I saw my center display in the gauges say something about low oil. At that point I realized what the ! probably was and I checked the dipstick, sure enough it was a little low. For me I think it was the first dealership failed to fill it up all the way because it happened much sooner than 12k for me.


You calling me a dipstick! The manual says you can read the level using the thumb wheel selector. All I can get is a oil can indicator, no actual level as shown in the manual. If you hold the BC down long enough I get some sort of CC Code 175 or something like that.:dunno:

My oil change is still about 3k away as per the OBCD. My rear brake pads have read 1200 miles for the past 5k, so what's up with that?

My low fuel light went on and now the oil light is gone, so I guess I'm all good till I run out of fuel.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> You calling me a dipstick! The manual says you can read the level using the thumb wheel selector. All I can get is a oil can indicator, no actual level as shown in the manual. If you hold the BC down long enough I get some sort of CC Code 175 or something like that.:dunno:
> 
> My oil change is still about 3k away as per the OBCD. My rear brake pads have read 1200 miles for the past 5k, so what's up with that?
> 
> My low fuel light went on and now the oil light is gone, so I guess I'm all good till I run out of fuel.


You are what you are.

The manual is referring to the non diesel cars, those have no dipstick and you have to check via the method you read about.

My rear brakes say 6k miles and my fronts 60k miles, whats up with that, means 84k or so miles on the front brakes. I think my computer lies to me sometimes, probably because I insult it a lot.


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## burjoes (Dec 18, 2012)

*Biodiesel?*

Did any of you use biodiesel at all? My 2011 335d has 35k miles on it, and I just had both NOx sensors replaced. I had used B5 for about 2000 miles, B20 for another 1500 miles, then B50 for about 2000 miles. The CEL came on, and I let the tank run empty, then put in 3/4 tank of diesel. About 200 miles later, the light went off. I took it to the dealer, who said they could see the history of codes, and that the NOx sensors "shorted out". It was $937 just for the part, covered under warranty. No labor reported since it's warranty work.

Because biodiesel has a different emissions profile, I wondered if perhaps the CEL came on because it was expecting different readings. Then, when enough diesel went through, the light went off because it didn't see the same condition again (OBD-II systems continually monitor and turn off when a failure condition is no longer present).

Any thoughts on this?

Before answering, know that I've been in the biodiesel industry for 7 years. I've given presentations to national audiences about the DPF issues with biodiesel, among other things. Please spare me the elementary biodiesel anecdotes. Anything BMW-specific would be greatly appreciated.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

For what it is worth I have been forced to run B5 for quite sometime now. I have seen no negative impacts from it but since the car is rated for just above that then would not expected anything negative to happen.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

burjoes said:


> Anything BMW-specific would be greatly appreciated.


Well, I wouldn't tell the dealer I was using B50, since BMW specifies a maximum of B7.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

That's a weird one; I wouldn't think running biodiesel would have any effect on NOx emissions...

As Snipe says, I've run B5 for over 57K miles with no problems at all.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

burjoes said:


> Because biodiesel has a different emissions profile, I wondered if perhaps the CEL came on because it was expecting different readings. Then, when enough diesel went through, the light went off because it didn't see the same condition again (OBD-II systems continually monitor and turn off when a failure condition is no longer present).
> 
> Any thoughts on this?
> .


I can confirm that on the BMW, as with all other OBD compliant cars, after a certain number of starts with the error not 'active' the CEL will turn off, but the code will be retained. On bmws, they can also see the engine operating hours at the time the error occurred.

(Hypothetical: Does failing to tell them you were running B50 constitute fraud? I mean if you believe it to be 'safe', why not be 'honest'?)

Anyway, I wonder if the sensor was fine once it cleaned up- and they just replaced the sensor because 'that code=replace sensor'....


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Well if they never ask you what fuel you ran then would it be fraud to not bother to just tell them out of the blue?


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## mc335d (Nov 9, 2013)

*How many NOX sensors are there?*

SES light for my 2011 335 d with 27600 miles came on in July. Fault code 4D16. They diagnosed Crystalized exhaust diffuser and told me this is unusual. Also replaced "NOX sensor before CAT". (in shop 3 days)
SES light on again at 31k miles (October) Same 4D16 fault code, now faulty catalytic converter, 2 days in shop & then 2 weeks to wait for the part. Replaced Catalytic converter with note "had to remove exhaust system for repair"(!?) 3 more days in shop.
SES light returned on my way home (within about 15 miles). "Faulty NOX sensor before catalytic converter" replaced again. SA states bad CC caused this. 5 days in shop.
SES light on the day following return and car is still in. Advised they have replaced All NOX sensors but test plan requires they drive the car for an hour - that was a day ago so I assume SES light has reappeared and they have tired of calling me. All covered under warranty to date but obviously a problem.

I loved this car before this began, now wondering if I should trigger "lemon law". Car is just under 2 years and at 32k miles. Any ideas, incompetent service or problem with the vehicle?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

If it is incompetent service then do you have another dealer to try and start using? If so then that is what I'd do. Should be able to help quickly determine if your issues are related to some bonehead working on the car or if the car itself is "cursed". I'd also research lemon laws there and make sure you follow what ever steps are needed just in case the car is in fact cursed.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Read:

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-for...-should-i-lemon-report-5uxff0c55alj98900.html

4D16 was the start of my trials.... Love my 2012 X5d though...

Know the lemon law in your state. BEFORE you approach BMW you should be sure you have a winnable lemon law claim- approach too early and they will circle the wagons... mine was sweet as the first event was at 9k miles, which in CA is when the $$$-clock starts. Even thought it was turned in at 32k miles, the amount I paid was 9000/120,000 of the original price, minus all taxes etc.

I assume the dealer is working with BMWNA and they have a PUMA case open, yes???? if this is a PUMA then it isnt up to the bonehead at the dealer...they have a highly paid bonehead at headquarters working it.

GL

A


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

mc335d said:


> SES light for my 2011 335 d with 27600 miles came on in July. Fault code 4D16. They diagnosed Crystalized exhaust diffuser and told me this is unusual. Also replaced "NOX sensor before CAT". (in shop 3 days)
> SES light on again at 31k miles (October) Same 4D16 fault code, now faulty catalytic converter, 2 days in shop & then 2 weeks to wait for the part. Replaced Catalytic converter with note "had to remove exhaust system for repair"(!?) 3 more days in shop.
> SES light returned on my way home (within about 15 miles). "Faulty NOX sensor before catalytic converter" replaced again. SA states bad CC caused this. 5 days in shop.
> SES light on the day following return and car is still in. Advised they have replaced All NOX sensors but test plan requires they drive the car for an hour - that was a day ago so I assume SES light has reappeared and they have tired of calling me. All covered under warranty to date but obviously a problem.
> ...


From my experience, the dealer has very little saying at determining what is wrong and what need to be replaced. The mechanic at the dealer has to relied on the diagnostic tools and fault tree, that is the only way they get reimburse for warranty work from BMW. They have to submit this data to BMW.

My car started to get into all kind of issues at around 35 K miles (now 49.6K miles). These issues are all related to the stringent anti-pollution control on these car that is unique to the NA market. Are we the guinea pig? Before 35K miles, except for few recall and minor problems here and there, I was generally happy with the car. After 35K, I had to visit the dealer so many time that I lost count of it. As I mentioned in another thread, I had many injector change between the annual oil change.

To me, this is not a reliable car and it is not acceptable. If I compare the 335d reliability to our other car, a Honda Odyssey 2005 with over 120K miles, except for regular maintenance items and timing belt replacement, we had one recall (brake booster) and one CV joint replacement.

I did look at the law here in GA to see if I can lemon the car. After reading the law, it was clear that it was too late for it. I am not a believer in extended warranty because on average the customer is the looser. However, from my experience with the 335d, I recently got an extended BMW Powertrain warranty.

My advise: If you do not lemon it, you probably should look at getting an extended warranty for your car.


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## mc335d (Nov 9, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. I have looked in FL lemon laws and I have about 5 weeks left to pull the trigger. Would much rather they gave me a nice value on a trade in but I will do what I have to. 

I have been told that BMW is "involved" but have seen no references to PUMA on my service reports. How would I know if they have triggered PUMA.


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## burjoes (Dec 18, 2012)

*biodiesel?*

I was wondering if you have knowingly used any biodiesel - B5, B20, or B100?

I used B100 in my 2010 335d for about 20,000 miles and never had a problem in it.

That being said, with my longtime involvement in the biodiesel community, I am well aware of the potential pitfalls with warranty coverage if the dealer finds fault with the fuel in a repair situation. Obviously, the whole warranty isn't void, but that's the scare tactic phrase they'll throw out - as if a failure in the transmission, suspension, interior, trim, and the other parts of the vehicle are out of warranty because you used a different fuel!

Anyway, I always "like" to know about problems with people's fuel and emissions system with no biodiesel use, to ensure folks hear about the number of problems that exist with those systems independent of fuel.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

montr said:


> . These issues are all related to the stringent anti-pollution control on these car that is unique to the NA market. Are we the guinea pig?.


IMO it is due to the poor job BMW did in ENGINEERING this solution for the NA market.

Big diesel 18 wheelers use this system...with success. I expect that there is ONE vendor for these SCR systems and BMW, MB and Audi all use the same guys. My opinion



mc335d said:


> I have been told that BMW is "involved" but have seen no references to PUMA on my service reports. How would I know if they have triggered PUMA.


You are relying on VERBAL information, correct? You will find that this all goes away with nary a wisp, and you will be stuck with the dealer and BMWNA simply relying on the printed documents you sign and never read!

If you looked at my thread and the pdf documents you will note that they read like a storybook...why? becuase I wrote the work orders and I negotiated what they put on the repair orders (work order is when you drop off, repair order is what they did)..codes were included.

You ASK the SA if this is under a PUMA with BMW. Simple. If he says "no" say "I'll be in tomorrow afternoon to meet with you, the tech and your service manager to discuss our next steps- what time will be best for you?"

Until you take the time to eductae yourself on the ins and outs of this stuff, dont expect the 'bmw system' to make it easier. In a perfect world you drop it off and say "CEL is on" and they put you in a nice shiny loaner, you come back and pick up a freshly washed car...who cares what was done, right? Well, if it happens once, nobody cares,,,but at the 4th time you are kicking yourself for not paying attention the first time.



burjoes said:


> I was wondering if you have knowingly used any biodiesel - B5, B20, or B100?.


If asked say "never", period, end of story. Make sure the tank is fresh too. I would not allow those d1cks to open the door on this. Aside from the issue of biodiesel, BMWAG seems to try and blame all sorts of issues on "north american fuel", which is a total scam- they know what fuel we have, they have a duty to design a motor that handles it, period. This is the law.


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## burjoes (Dec 18, 2012)

btw - I didn't go into all the problems I had with my car which were unrelated to fuel. The SCR system became corroded on the outside and had to be completely replaced - it cost the dealer several thousand dollars. The NOx sensors also failed, twice; they had to replace the climate control system because it made the belts make funny noises. I think I had it in the dealership 8-10 times in the 18 months I had it. I asked one of the advisors if they had seen a lot of problems with the 335d's and he said "with all BMW's - they are just high maintenance". That was enough for me to decide never to buy another one. 

As you said, getting a nice wash and new loaner (with start/stop!) is fine once or twice - especially if you have long trips to take. But scheduling to get that loaner (instead of a cheap economy rental) was always a hassle, along with moving the car seat, etc.


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## mc335d (Nov 9, 2013)

I have never (knowingly) used biodiesel - I have never seen it for sale here.


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## finnbmw (Jul 6, 2008)

mc335d said:


> SES light for my 2011 335 d with 27600 miles came on in July. Fault code 4D16


Had this same code appear (checked with generic code reader) on our 2010 X5 diesel at 43,500 miles. After two initial faulty diagnosis, the dealer finally replaced both front and rear NOx sensors.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

finnbmw said:


> Had this same code appear (checked with generic code reader) on our 2010 X5 diesel at 43,500 miles. After two initial faulty diagnosis, the dealer finally replaced both front and rear NOx sensors.


NOx sensors seem to be a problem. I had mine replaced at around 37K, and I talking with a few over-the-road truckers, NOx sensors have apparently been a problem on the new SCR-equipped OTR trucks.


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## mc335d (Nov 9, 2013)

finnbmw said:


> Had this same code appear (checked with generic code reader) on our 2010 X5 diesel at 43,500 miles. After two initial faulty diagnosis, the dealer finally replaced both front and rear NOx sensors.


Looks like I will have 2 new NOx sensors, another new SCR Catalytic converter and the Cat Converter by the time I get the car back. Any problems since you got the new NOx sensors?


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

The dealer replaced my NOx sensors along with both catalytic converters at around 35,000 miles. I've since changed fuel from Texaco to Shell, but can't tell much difference. The Shell in my area has up to 5% Biodiesel. My theory is that when I started strong downshifting to clear the crud (no large black exhaust plume in the DPF equipped d) as I used to in my previous DI diesels, the converters couldn't handle the first large batch. 

Car has 38k miles now.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Here's what happens and both forward and aft NOX sensors go out


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

an BTW here's another pic of the UREA pump ruined by a leak in it


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## mt3ch (May 4, 2003)

Buy extended wty..... Got 7yr/100k powertrain plus for $1900. Now I dont care about all these issues for the next 3.5 years!


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## finnbmw (Jul 6, 2008)

mc335d said:


> Looks like I will have 2 new NOx sensors, another new SCR Catalytic converter and the Cat Converter by the time I get the car back. Any problems since you got the new NOx sensors?


I've put about 2,500 miles since the repair with no issues, knock on wood...


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## finnbmw (Jul 6, 2008)

mt3ch said:


> Buy extended wty..... Got 7yr/100k powertrain plus for $1900. Now I dont care about all these issues for the next 3.5 years!


Where do you get a warranty for that price? Is that a BMW plan? The Gold plan I've looked at is $4,200 for the same coverage period as yours. Maybe 335d is less expensive than X5 or is that for your X5?


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

finnbmw said:


> Where do you get a warranty for that price? Is that a BMW plan? The Gold plan I've looked at is $4,200 for the same coverage period as yours. Maybe 335d is less expensive than X5 or is that for your X5?


Powertrain Plus is much more limited than the Gold warranty, and, as a result, much cheaper.

That said, $1,900 is pretty cheap if it is a BMW NA Powertrain Plus warranty and not an independent warranty.

I just paid $5,030 for a Platinum 100K warranty on my X5 and cringed while doing it. I am not a believer in extended warranties' however, my experience with my X5 while under the original warranty convinced me that I either had to trade it in or buy the warranty. Buying the warranty to get another three years of use seemed the most economical alternative, e.g., just replacing the power liftgate struts while under warranty was almost a $1k repair bill.


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## 335dCBU_YAY (Dec 26, 2014)

*335d bankruptcy*

Yay
Bought Used 335d 43k miles,

thus far
CBU $ 1970
NOX engine and cat converter DDE reprograms $ 2700

I did get a BMW keychain from the dealer


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## txagbmw (Apr 15, 2013)

Yeah my 13 went out a few month ago, Think it was around 9,000 miles. Along with
the Def Tank, some other sensor. Than replaced the Converter and a exhaust pipe piece too.
Would have to find the old post for all done. On working under the hood they out a hole
in the plastic engine cover. When replaced they got a old one since
was dusty, scratched LOL LOL


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## 335dCBU_YAY (Dec 26, 2014)

Allegedly def crystalises at 25 deg f

How the hell are they driving this piece of junk in canada all happily frolicking in the swamps up there 

The only common denominator is the gas ; 

At any rate it is a piece of junk; the emmission system is a joke 

I parked next to wrx today and I cried ...

If by some tectonic gods of deep german forest this hulking piece of junk lasts another 100 miles without lighting up the dashboard like a f'n Christmass tree 

I'm trading the bastard in all CBU out for the next poor bastard that may nurse it for next 25
Miles 

Absolute garbage of an emission system


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## koolio (Sep 13, 2014)

Thought I'd add to the thread...

2012 X5d with 30,124 miles. Got the CEL / SES light last week (Tuesday, 10/4). Dropped car off at dealer on Friday, 8/7. Just got the car back tonight. Fault code was 4BB2 "Nox sensor before DeNox cat plausibility." They replaced the "pre-SCR NOX sensor, initialized system, cleared faults."

Hopefully, this is the start and end of my issues with the sensors and SCR system.


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