# Is BMW becoming an unreachable brand for US customers?



## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

Welcome to the $50k 320i. I've long thought that 2007-2011 was a crazy grace period; a long sunset on the back of a credit boom, after which we would all pay dearly. I bought my S4 for one reason and one reason alone - never again in the history of the world would Germany sell the United States a car that fantastic that cheaply ever again - a model that used to cost $60k being let go for a mere $46k. 

It looks like BMW is taking the lead with jacking the price to the moon, as if they want to again usher in the 1980s. I'm not saying I'm going to be precluded from buying a 3 series, or anyone else in San Francisco for that matter. But westwest888 from 8 years ago would have no business buying one at these prices. 

I don't see BMW doing 1,000,000 units a year if this is their entry level price. Any comparison shopper is going to notice the missing heated seats, the missing moonroof, the 2 line radio display. BMW is handing entry lux to the Japanese and the C class.

I really thought Sport - Modern - Luxury would be like Audi's Premium - Premium Plus - Prestige. A single no nonsense, options bucket scheme. Instead I see an even deeper pyramid where a seemingly affordable car needs $18k in options just to have xenon lights.


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## justinnum1 (Nov 22, 2011)

335i>s4 imo


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## wessew (Feb 9, 2007)

A fully equipped 550i is $80K. So a $50K 328i is right in line. 1) You don't have to buy one; 2) The market will decide; 3) You don't need every option in the book.


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## justinnum1 (Nov 22, 2011)

My 328 is costing me 40K. Thankfully it wont have the weight problem the S4 has.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

westwest888 said:


> I don't see BMW doing 1,000,000 units a year if this is their entry level price.


But a 328i isn't their entry level car. A 128i Coupe starts around $32,000.

In most of the world, the 128i Coupe isn't the entry level car either.

There is a good chance the US market will eventually get the F20 1 series. I doubt BMW will try and sell the 116i in the states, but the 118i 5 door would be a good entry level BMW for the US. There is a market for the F20 120d too, but I don't know if BMW NA will risk it.

There is also the UKL front wheel drive BMW on the way. Rumors say that will be sold in the US market.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

You have a strong tendency to skew numbers to favor your favorite brand which is of course Audi. First of all the S4 starts at about $46K, it can be optioned to over $60K.The F30 328i starts at under $35K. Judiciously optioned it can be had for well under $40K. My 2011 328i with leather, heated seats, power rear shade, metallic paint, BMW Assist and Bluetooth was well under $37K. Lets get some perspective for once.

By the way the S4 is a great car but it's fat and needs the electronic differential to drive well.

Edit...I just looked at the Audi website. The S4 starts at $47,300 plus $875.00 destination. That's $48,175.00 to start. Add metallic paint and the sports differential and you're looking at $50K for a fairly basic S4. Frankly you're trolling.


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

I will bite and humor the troll, I for one do not want to see a BMW on every corner, it cheapens the brand imo. BMW made it clear that they are not going to be market share whores at the cost of exclusivity so if Audi wants the crown have at it, thats VW's business model anyways so it makes sense for them. I for one don't ever see myself buying an Audi ever!


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## Munich77 (Jul 16, 2008)

Elias said:


> I will bite and humor the troll, I for one do not want to see a BMW on every corner, it cheapens the brand imo. BMW made it clear that they are not going to be market share whores at the cost of exclusivity so if Audi wants the crown have at it, thats VW's business model anyways so it makes sense for them. I for one don't ever see myself buying an Audi ever!


I don't think that BMW has the deep resources to be a "market share whore." What BMW has been doing is just alll so slightly broaden the appeal of the car with each model reiteration.


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## haskindm (Jun 1, 2011)

Cars are getting more expensive. Get used to it! The new CAFE standards are going to drive prices even higher. Of course consumers are also demanding more and more features on their cars which also drives prices higher. Now even "inexpensive" cars must have power windows, power door locks, etc. I was in the car business when American Cars first started costing over $10K. People complained bitterly. Then when they hit $20K they complained again. Then $30K, then $40K, and now $50K. Everyone predicts "the end" when a price threshold is crossed, and yet we keep on going. The same is true of gas prices. Everyone thought life as we know it was over when gas hit $1.00 per gallon. The world did not end and we would be very happy to pay $1.00 per gallon now. Eventually we may hit a ceiling, and have to accept less luxurious, less powerful, less expensive cars, but we are not there yet....


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Elias said:


> I will bite and humor the troll, I for one do not want to see a BMW on every corner, it cheapens the brand imo.


Since 2000, BMW NA has been careful not to do anything in the US that would be seen as cheapening the brand.

That is why:

Cloth upholstery hasn't been available in the US, even as a P1 custom option. 
BMW NA hasn't imported a hatchback since the e36/5.
The base model has been creeping upward. The last US market 318 was an e36 and the current base is a x28i.
Rest of world options are standard on US market cars. For example BMW's mid-range "Business Audio" is typically the base audio for the US. 
BMW NA typically offers incentive finance or option credits instead of sale prices or rebates.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Michael Schott said:


> You have a strong tendency to skew numbers to favor your favorite brand which is of course Audi. First of all the S4 starts at about $46K, it can be optioned to over $60K.The F30 328i starts at under $35K. Judiciously optioned it can be had for well under $40K. My 2011 328i with leather, heated seats, power rear shade, metallic paint, BMW Assist and Bluetooth was well under $37K. Lets get some perspective for once.
> 
> By the way the S4 is a great car but it's fat and needs the electronic differential to drive well.
> 
> Edit...I just looked at the Audi website. The S4 starts at $47,300 plus $875.00 destination. That's $48,175.00 to start. Add metallic paint and the sports differential and you're looking at $50K for a fairly basic S4. Frankly you're trolling.


+1!!! on all points.

I haven't crunched the numbers yet on the F30, but if you check my theads you'll find two or three where I did just that on comparably equipped E46s and E90s. It turns out in those comparos BMW prices have remained pretty flat. The key is using comparably equipped cars.

The 335 took the 3er into a different power league than it had ever been in. The E9x 328 was the comparable car to the E46 330. The other variable that skews the price comparisons is the added cost of new "gee whiz" options that are added to the slate each year. If you take those out those, prices year over year remain pretty steady; sometimes even dropping some when inflation is factored in.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

tturedraider said:


> +1!!! on all points.
> 
> I haven't crunched the numbers yet on the F30, but if you check my theads you'll find two or three where I did just that on comparably equipped E46s and E90s. It turns out in those comparos BMW prices have remained pretty flat. The key is using comparably equipped cars.
> 
> The 335 took the 3er into a different power league than it had ever been in. The E9x 328 was the comparable car to the E46 330. The other variable that skews the price comparisons is the added cost of new "gee whiz" options that are added to the slate each year. If you take those out those, prices year over year remain pretty steady; sometimes even dropping some when inflation is factored in.


Right... Satch Carlson in Roundel made the same point. He was saying that people always complain at how expensive every new model from BMW is. But they forget to factor in inflation and eqipment levels. He pointed out that even without adjusting for eqipment, a base 1988 e30 M3 cost more than an e90 m3. Overall BMWs have actually been getting cheaper in each successive generation (as of other German makes i'm sure due to increased compettion) And in some ways, this shows in certain choices they make in terms of making the cars a bit less durable and serviceable.


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## Bruce128iC (Feb 16, 2003)

Elias said:


> I will bite and humor the troll, I for one do not want to see a BMW on every corner, it cheapens the brand imo. BMW made it clear that they are not going to be market share whores at the cost of exclusivity so if Audi wants the crown have at it, thats VW's business model anyways so it makes sense for them. I for one don't ever see myself buying an Audi ever!


I guess you've never been so So Cal. BMWs are a dime a dozen out here.


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## thumper_330 (Jan 3, 2009)

westwest888 I happen to really like the current S4 but I'm not an Audi customer. Quite simply I couldn't justify paying $50K for the car particularly when it was dynamically as compromised as the S4 is.

While I have made no secret of the fact that I think the S4 is a technological marvel and masterpiece, I decided recently to fill that void in my garage with a 135i. Sure, it's a hell of a lot smaller than the Audi but it provides an edge to its handling and performance that the S4 can't even touch. I admit I've only had it for less than a week at this point but you don't find me trolling the Audi boards telling potential Audi buyers that they're somehow deluded. For the record, my 135i pretty much loaded to the hilt cost me less than a BASE S4 would have cost me at the maximum discount I could effectively negotiate with the dealer. I think the only option I didn't throw into my car was Sirius because I really didn't care for it.

I understand your love for the car, I really do; as a mid-size family sedan it's one of the best of breed... but I don't understand your insistence on hanging around here and telling us all why we're so deluded to be owning BMW's. I had a choice of buying an S4 or a BMW, but chose the smaller, nimbler and (dare I say it) faster car with more toys for less money and I seriously couldn't be happier. Seriously, I have to start wondering; are you trying to get everyone here to buy an Audi? If so, what's your motivation?

As an aside, one thing I decided I DIDN'T like about Audi's when I went to a few S4 meets locally was the attitude. It's the same attitude I get from people who have a pathological need to carry an iPad and tell me constantly how they've replaced their laptop with it and that I should move into the 21st Century. Yay, I'm glad for you that you've discovered that 95% of what you did with a laptop was surf the web and consume media. For those of us who actually have to get some work done with their computers, that iPad will never replace it. I wouldn't be so irritated with it except that I OWN an iPad 2 that sits on its sync cable more often than it gets lugged around.


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## WaxComb (Oct 11, 2011)




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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

bmw325 said:


> Right... Satch Carlson in Roundel made the same point. He was saying that people always complain at how expensive every new model from BMW is. But they forget to factor in inflation and eqipment levels. He pointed out that even without adjusting for eqipment, a base 1988 e30 M3 cost more than an e90 m3. Overall BMWs have actually been getting cheaper in each successive generation (as of other German makes i'm sure due to increased compettion) And in some ways, this shows in certain choices they make in terms of making the cars a bit less durable and serviceable.


I wasn't aware there is inflation. I thought we were deflating and had negative interest rates.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

thumper_330 said:


> westwest888 I happen to really like the current S4 but I'm not an Audi customer. Quite simply I couldn't justify paying $50K for the car particularly when it was dynamically as compromised as the S4 is.
> 
> While I have made no secret of the fact that I think the S4 is a technological marvel and masterpiece, I decided recently to fill that void in my garage with a 135i. Sure, it's a hell of a lot smaller than the Audi but it provides an edge to its handling and performance that the S4 can't even touch. I admit I've only had it for less than a week at this point but you don't find me trolling the Audi boards telling potential Audi buyers that they're somehow deluded. For the record, my 135i pretty much loaded to the hilt cost me less than a BASE S4 would have cost me at the maximum discount I could effectively negotiate with the dealer. I think the only option I didn't throw into my car was Sirius because I really didn't care for it.
> 
> ...


:stupid:

(Except for a 135i)

I would really like to have a go in one of those little beasts. :bigpimp:


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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

thumper_330 said:


> westwest888 I happen to really like the current S4 but I'm not an Audi customer. Quite simply I couldn't justify paying $50K for the car particularly when it was dynamically as compromised as the S4 is.
> 
> While I have made no secret of the fact that I think the S4 is a technological marvel and masterpiece, I decided recently to fill that void in my garage with a 135i. Sure, it's a hell of a lot smaller than the Audi but it provides an edge to its handling and performance that the S4 can't even touch. I admit I've only had it for less than a week at this point but you don't find me trolling the Audi boards telling potential Audi buyers that they're somehow deluded. For the record, my 135i pretty much loaded to the hilt cost me less than a BASE S4 would have cost me at the maximum discount I could effectively negotiate with the dealer. I think the only option I didn't throw into my car was Sirius because I really didn't care for it.
> 
> ...


Yeah it was about $50k. I did want a big, fast car.

I've been to the track about 25 times with my e90 325i and twice with the S4. I can honestly say that my factory S4 was a lot faster than my heavily modified 325i with coilovers and a VERY aggressive camber setup. The line it drives isn't terribly different. The 325i enters corners MUCH faster, but the S4's torque vectoring sets it up with a much faster corner exit speed. Once the S4 is pointed straight again it's game over. I think the 335i and the S4 would be about the same when pointed straight (aside from the frequent overheating at the track with the turbo BMW). The 335i has trouble putting power down mid corner, so it is effectively as gated to being as slow as its 328i brother by its open differential (when cornering at a track < 15% of your weight is on the inside wheels so the BMW has no friction with which to put the power down).

FWIW the 335i is faster around most road courses than the 135i. Something about the longer wheelbase settles out the chassis. The opposite may be true in a very technical low speed course like an autocross.


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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

Michael Schott said:


> You have a strong tendency to skew numbers to favor your favorite brand which is of course Audi. First of all the S4 starts at about $46K, it can be optioned to over $60K.The F30 328i starts at under $35K. Judiciously optioned it can be had for well under $40K. My 2011 328i with leather, heated seats, power rear shade, metallic paint, BMW Assist and Bluetooth was well under $37K. Lets get some perspective for once.
> 
> By the way the S4 is a great car but it's fat and needs the electronic differential to drive well.
> 
> Edit...I just looked at the Audi website. The S4 starts at $47,300 plus $875.00 destination. That's $48,175.00 to start. Add metallic paint and the sports differential and you're looking at $50K for a fairly basic S4. Frankly you're trolling.


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585660

It was in reference to this thread. To get a 320i with leather, moonroof, heated seats, power seats, xenons, a real radio screen, and sport package is about $46,000.

I suppose it depends if people are expecting to cross shop this car with a C300, G25, and IS250. Then it looks very expensive. If they're cross shopping it against C350, G37, IS350 I suppose it's right in line.


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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> But a 328i isn't their entry level car. A 128i Coupe starts around $32,000.
> 
> In most of the world, the 128i Coupe isn't the entry level car either.
> 
> ...


News flash: the 328i the smallest car most people will buy. It's too small for most American adults, and 4 people can't comfortably take a road trip in it (at least 1 of them will be uncomfortable).


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## JONNYCHIRO (Dec 25, 2011)

To the OP, really?
As to BMW's pricing scheme--the Market will decide.
As to Entry level Luxury market going the way of Asian motors. Maybe so. 
While it's true Infiniti all the way to Genesis load their base models--the comparisons stop there... German engineering far exceeds the step up Nissans, etc. Is that even debatable?

As for the S4--it's a nice ride albeit a little bloated. But the rest of Audi's line are all dogs
(the S5 come on!) until you start dropping over $100K.

My buddies S4 had no navigation and a velour/cloth-like seats! And that poor Dash--the orange readout and interface were tragic IMHO.

I agree you can really spend a mint optioning up the build. But it's the price of doing business.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

JONNYCHIRO said:


> *German engineering far exceeds the step up Nissans, etc.*
> 
> * Is that even debatable?*
> 
> .


Yes


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## Bob Shiftright (Feb 3, 2006)

In 1968, the BMW 2002's radio, sunroof, and chrome exhaust tip were optional at extra cost. If AC was available, it was an option. BMW has asked buyers to pay extra for the good parts for decades! 1976 saw the introduction of the Honda Accord. It was the first Japanese small car with features like cloth seats, a tachometer, intermittent wipers, and an AM/FM radio as standard equipment. In 1978 an LX version of the coupe was added which came with air conditioning, a digital clock, and power steering.

The most popular nameplate in the History of Man is the Toyota Corolla. They've sold about 40 _million_ copies since 1966. A new 2012 Corolla LE goes for $18,036 in my zip code. We have a Toyota Corolla in our motor pool. IMO, it does everything a car should do, and it does it well, (including not breaking very often). It is not a lot of fun to drive.

As a consumer, I moan about paying BMW extra for stuff like the sports suspension, power seats, and bun warmers. OTOH, my BMW cost maybe $10k more than an Accord V6, it's a station wagon with room for a dog, flats of flowers and bags of fertilizer and it's fun to drive.

I bought my daughter a Honda Accord a few years ago. IMO. it's more fun to drive than a Toyota Corolla but not quite as much fun as a BMW. Amortized over 10 years, the premium of my BMW versus a Honda Accord V6 works out to $83 per month, or $2.77 per day. (I don't smoke, but a pack of cigarettes costs $8.35 in New Jersey). Is it worth less than $3 per day to me to drive a BMW? It is. Is the BMW price premium worth it to everyone? it's not. That's why Toyota has sold many more Corollas than BMW has sold 3-series.

Honda, Toyota and BMW have not required massive government bailouts. I might not agree with BMW's marketing strategy but if they sell every car they make, and the company earns a profit, why is it a problem? :dunno:

Nobody is forcing you to buy a BMW, or a Corolla, or a Trabant.


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

I am brand new to the BMW world, and I am going to add a contrarian viewpoint. 
I am ONLY going to speak about the used car market.

Let's talk inflation-adjusted numbers ....Over the last 20 years, what has a 10 year old BMW with 125k miles generally sold for, in today's dollars?
Maybe I never noticed, but the used BMW market seems very affordable, compared to the Jap car "bubble". 
You can't give these cars away, compared to a Honda. My 530i was cheaper than a used Toyota or Honda
(Fear of Gas prices? Fear of insane repairs? Cashflow...People can only afford leases? Obsession with Jap car reliability?)

I just got in at $5800 (Invested about $2000 more), and my car looks and runs great. (unmolested stock 2001 E39 530i)
First ever luxury/sport car. I love this thing. It looks awesome.

I am happy to play the very used angle. The depreciation on these cars is staggering. Benz also. 90% depreciation by 100k miles.
So, to me, speaking for the used BMW market, it seems affordable as hell. Was this always the case??

For a completely opposite take on this thread, check out this conversation:

*Why are people more impressed by a used $6k BMW than a $25k Accord/Camry ??*
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1761068


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## Bob Shiftright (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't know, but I think the market is an efficient market!

Buying an older $5000 Eurocar without a pre-purchase inspection, a few basic metric tools, some basic maintenance skills and a tame indy mechanic is a shortcut on the road to bankruptcy!

KBB gives a trade-in price for a 2001 Honda Accord EX 4-cyl AT with 120K of $3739 while a 2001 BMW 325i AT with 120K is $4070. Not a lot of price premium for the BMW, but Honda parts are cheaper, the Honda will break less often, and if a typical ASE certified tech can't fix a Honda Accord, he needs to find a new line of work. 

KBB also gives a trade-in price of $1779 for a 2001 Chevy Malibu with 120K in "good" condition. There is a > 2x price premium for the used Honda because it's assumed to be reliable and with the BMW ... because it's a BMW!

A 2012 328i sells for roughly 2x the price of a 2012 Chevy Malibu.


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## Bumer (May 23, 2008)

Michael Schott said:


> You have a strong tendency to skew numbers to favor your favorite brand which is of course Audi. First of all the S4 starts at about $46K, it can be optioned to over $60K.The F30 328i starts at under $35K. Judiciously optioned it can be had for well under $40K. My 2011 328i with leather, heated seats, power rear shade, metallic paint, BMW Assist and Bluetooth was well under $37K. Lets get some perspective for once.
> 
> By the way the S4 is a great car but it's fat and needs the electronic differential to drive well.
> 
> Edit...I just looked at the Audi website. The S4 starts at $47,300 plus $875.00 destination. That's $48,175.00 to start. Add metallic paint and the sports differential and you're looking at $50K for a fairly basic S4. Frankly you're trolling.


This sums it up good. :thumbup:


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

Dunno, Have people stopped buying them?


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Bumer said:


> This sums it up good. :thumbup:


Thank you. Finally someone posting common sense about Audi. IMHO they are grossly overpriced and underwhelming. Now that BMW has x drive I really do not see why anyone buys them. Prior to x drive (and xi) the Audi appeal was, to me, the availability of all wheel drive.



ProRail said:


> Dunno, Have people stopped buying them?


No...actually BMW is selling more cars now than the competition. That says something about the new direction BMW is taking. Not that I agree with all of the changes though....


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

BMW is selling more cars than ever and recently became the best selling so called "luxury" brand. I say "so called luxury brand" because I suspect that BMW is selling a lot more 3 Series than Mercedes is selling C Class but the S Class probably outsells the BMW 7 Series. I have no statistics to back this up and my impression is totally based on personal observation and impressions.

The impressive BMW sales numbers would seem to indicated that the brand is by no means "unreachable". 
In light of some of the very favorable lease deals that are offered BMWs are relatively affordable.

CA


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## Fryguy29 (Nov 27, 2011)

captainaudio said:


> BMW is selling more cars than ever and recently became the best selling so called "luxury" brand. I say "so called luxury brand" because I suspect that BMW is selling a lot more 3 Series than Mercedes is selling C Class but the S Class probably outsells the BMW 7 Series. I have no statistics to back this up and my impression is totally based on personal observation and impressions.
> CA


It looks like he is right....

For those who don't want to read the links:
I just looked at October 2011 sales numbers. They were the easiest to find.

Oct 2011
BMW 3 series- 7748 (YTD 78,314) MB C-Class- 7084 (YTD 53,212)
BMW 7 series 1103 (YTD 8853) MB S-Class 927 (YTD 9804)

The difference was even more pronounced in 2010:

Oct 2010
BMW 3 series- 8520 (YTD 81,915) MB C-Class- 3771 (YTD 49,931)
BMW 7 series 680 (YTD 10,426) MB S-Class 1787 (YTD 11,512)

So BMW sells a lot more 3 series than C-Class, and a little less 7 series than S-Class.

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/...mercedes-benz-usa-october-2011-sales-figures/

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/578674/bmw-brand-sales-up-13.5-percent-in-october-2011!/


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