# Sorry 4 Series ED Prospects...



## ssedha (Mar 12, 2013)

It's 6/13/2013... Any updates?

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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

ssedha said:


> It's 6/13/2013... Any updates?
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using BimmerApp mobile app


+1

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## I Love BMW's (Mar 18, 2006)

Jon, Are X1's no longer taken out of dealer allocation for ED?


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

I Love BMW's said:


> Jon, Are X1's no longer taken out of dealer allocation for ED?


That is correct, only M Cars and the new 4 Series.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

Kar Don said:


> At least you can use the ultimate drive coupon on them
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Huh? I thought you couldn't use the $1000 coupon on ED cars.


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## E92Carrera (Aug 6, 2007)

Snareman said:


> Huh? I thought you couldn't use the $1000 coupon on ED cars.


Nope! Sucks I know.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

E92Carrera said:


> Nope! Sucks I know.


Ok, that's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

I Love BMW's said:


> The Audi program actually is better than the BMW one except for having to put down a deposit for VAT. The dealer I've spoken with assures me that they will not cash the check unless the car is not returned within the time frame.


Regarding the VAT check something that might be an option would be to make the check payable not only to the dealership but also to the dealership principle - Pay to the Order of xyz dealership and Joe Blow. That way if they felt inclined not to keep their word to hold the check the dealership principle would have to personally take responsibility for that decision.


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## JustinTJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Nice build on the 435 Jon. Exactly what I'd get.

BTW, Congrats on 25 and the sweet new ride.


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## lsleelee (Jan 5, 2007)

That 4 build you posted looks great! I'm bummed they still haven't added the ventilated seats option to the 3/4 series, that's just about the only thing pushing me towards a 5...


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

lsleelee said:


> That 4 build you posted looks great! I'm bummed they still haven't added the ventilated seats option to the 3/4 series, that's just about the only thing pushing me towards a 5...


I will say the vented seats are very nice...much better than the ones we had in my wife Lexus RX350.


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

Jon Shafer said:


> As I suspected, all F32 models for European Delivery must come from dealer allocation for the foreseeable future, until further notice. This is also true for all ///M Models currently in production.


Good info John. Makes perfect sense for BMW to maximize profitability on the release of a new (and popular) model like the 4 series.

Luckily my next ED will be an M4 in 2016 (hopefully model year 2 for the M) and hopefully its loosened by then.


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

Jon Shafer said:


> This is purpose of the post. They will not be available any time soon. Unless you can find a dealer willing to burn a US allocation to convert to ED (doubtful because they will lose a ton of money by doing so), August is out of the question. That we know to be fact.


Hey Jon,

Pricing has just been released for the 4 series. Do you have an idea when I would be able to do ED ?

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## sjd980002 (Jun 16, 2008)

My CA emailed me this week and said Nov would be the earliest for F32 ED. Much later than I was expecting. :bawling:

Does anyone know if this is accurate? Or maybe he just doesn't want to bother with me since, per Jon's post, they are initially part of dealer allocation?


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

sjd980002 said:


> My CA emailed me this week and said Nov would be the earliest for F32 ED. Much later than I was expecting. :bawling:
> 
> Does anyone know if this is accurate? Or maybe he just doesn't want to bother with me since, per Jon's post, they are initially part of dealer allocation?


I've been in contact with 2 CAs and while they don't know for sure. They both think September at some point. One even told me end of August?

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## sjd980002 (Jun 16, 2008)

MasterYoda said:


> I've been in contact with 2 CAs and while they don't know for sure. They both think September at some point. One even told me end of August?
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


That sounds more realistic. Please post if/when you get a firm date and I'll do the same. Can't stand the wait!


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

sjd980002 said:


> That sounds more realistic. Please post if/when you get a firm date and I'll do the same. Can't stand the wait!


Ok will do. The wait is killing me as well!

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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

The official word from ED is starting Nov 1st ...production #s will be pulled from dealer allocation


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> The official word from ED is starting Nov 1st ...production #s will be pulled from dealer allocation


No surprise; this is typical of new model launch: ED delay and from dealer allocations. The only deviations from this was when the US economy was tanking.

dk


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> The official word from ED is starting Nov 1st ...production #s will be pulled from dealer allocation


Wow, so by then the LCI will be out right??? Seems like forever from now...


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

Snareman said:


> Wow, so by then the LCI will be out right??? Seems like forever from now...


You completely lost me...LCI of a F32? What are you talking about? Nov 1st is just a little over 4 months from now...not forever thats for sure.


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

MasterYoda said:


> I've been in contact with 2 CAs and while they don't know for sure. They both think September at some point. One even told me end of August?
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


You know what I used to tell the new CAs when I was training them ...never answer a question that you are not sure about


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> You completely lost me...LCI of a F32? What are you talking about? Nov 1st is just a little over 4 months from now...not forever thats for sure.


I was kidding. It feels like so long from now that the LCI version of the coupe ought to be out by then.  "Not that long" depends on which side of the purchase order you are on and how excited you are to get a new car.


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

Snareman said:


> I was kidding. It feels like so long from now that the LCI version of the coupe ought to be out by then.  "Not that long" depends on which side of the purchase order you are on and how excited you are to get a new car.


icic...in that case you are right. Or might as well wait for the lets beat MB to #1 ...I meant holiday credit drive


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> icic...in that case you are right. Or might as well wait for the lets beat MB to #1 ...I meant holiday credit drive


I guess this will be one more ED without a trip to the Eagles Nest due to the time of year as well as at least some concern for snow depending on where I drive. I was counting on a fall ED. I hear Christmas in Munich is very festive... :beerchug:


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## sjd980002 (Jun 16, 2008)

Snareman said:


> I guess this will be one more ED without a trip to the Eagles Nest due to the time of year as well as at least some concern for snow depending on where I drive. I was counting on a fall ED. I hear Christmas in Munich is very festive... :beerchug:


Same for me. Wanted desperately to do ED in late summer or fall as last 2 were in the winter. Munich is great around Christmas, and Prague too for that matter, but not a fun drive up in summer tires during a surprise snowstorm. Needed an extra glass of gluhwein after that, but I think I learned my lesson.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

What's the cost to have the winter tires put on again? It will certainly make pics I take of my car in Europe less cool looking...


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## sjd980002 (Jun 16, 2008)

Snareman said:


> What's the cost to have the winter tires put on again? It will certainly make pics I take of my car in Europe less cool looking...


It's something like $200 for the first 2 days and $40/day thereafter.


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## EDF30 (Mar 3, 2012)

dkreidel said:


> Technically BMW only offers ~7% off US MSRP. Some of us have done much, much better on an Audi ED, but you have to do a little negotiating to get it. 10-11% is realistic; possibly better if your negotiating skills are sharp and you aren't looking for an RS. There are some elements of the program that are much better. The big deal, in my opinion, is finding an Audi dealer who promises not to cash your VAT deposit check.
> 
> Audi ED isn't the spoon-fed cake walk BMW is, but is a comparable program. Agree that Audi doesn't promote it though :dunno:


You seem to be denigrating BMW ED program as a spoon fed cake walk. If by spoon fed you mean "more transparent" I would agree. If you pay attention to this forum you can learn how to get invoice + pricing, base MF, correct residuals and no bumped up dealer fees. But I still see guys on this forum getting ripped off because they haven't paid attention or went to wrong CA. Just guessing, but I'd estimate that the fest accounts for less than 10% of BMW ED deals from NA. So 90% probably never come close to the deals we get here. So there is more transparency with BMW ED if you know where to look, but I hardly call it spoon fed.

By the way, I got 17.5% off MSRP on my AH3 ED, and the last place I want to spend my time is haggling with a car dealer. It took 5 minutes to write an email to Adrian with my numbers which were accepted immediately.

PS The extra 6.5% I did better than your Audi deal paid for a lot more than a free dinner, hotel and a Swiss Vignette


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## lsleelee (Jan 5, 2007)

I'm confused, Jon's original post led me to understand that F32 EDs were happening but had to come from dealer inventory (so you were probably going to be paying well for the experience), on page 3 here it says they're not happening at all until Nov 1st AND they'll be coming out of dealer inventory.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

lsleelee said:


> I'm confused, Jon's original post led me to understand that F32 EDs were happening but had to come from dealer inventory (so you were probably going to be paying well for the experience), on page 3 here it says they're not happening at all until Nov 1st AND they'll be coming out of dealer inventory.


My understanding is that the earliest you can do ED on an F32 is Nov 1st, and they will come out of dealer allocation/inventory at that time. That is in line with everything you just mentioned.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

MasterYoda said:


> I've been in contact with 2 CAs and while they don't know for sure. They both think September at some point. One even told me end of August?
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Same here. Mine just told me last week of August, 1st week of September. Said to give him my dates and he'd submit them.


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## jwac (Dec 2, 2006)

Anyone willing to guess how long ED F32s will come from dealer allocations? My E92 lease is expiring in September and I'm thinking of sweet-talking BMWFS into letting me extend it 6 months to wait for the F32. My CA told me they won't do an ED 435i, presumably even at MSRP.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

jwac said:


> Anyone willing to guess how long ED F32s will come from dealer allocations? My E92 lease is expiring in September and I'm thinking of sweet-talking BMWFS into letting me extend it 6 months to wait for the F32. My CA told me they won't do an ED 435i, presumably even at MSRP.


I think you need to find a new CA then...there should be no reason that you can't do an ED, now you probably won't get ED invoice plus pricing, but why shouldn't you be able to do it?


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

CTSoxFan said:


> I think you need to find a new CA then...there should be no reason that you can't do an ED, now you probably won't get ED invoice plus pricing, but why shouldn't you be able to do it?


I agree. Reach out to a sponsor and they should make it happen. Expect to pay full US MSRP.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

EDF30 said:


> You seem to be denigrating BMW ED program as a spoon fed cake walk. If by spoon fed you mean "more transparent" I would agree. If you pay attention to this forum you can learn how to get invoice + pricing, base MF, correct residuals and no bumped up dealer fees.


Not more transparent - both programs are transparent. I was not disparaging the BMW program; I've done 12+ BMW ED's with more to come:thumbup: You're right, it isn't rocket science to get a good ED deal with BMW's program. It does, however, take more effort to get an equivalent deal on an Audi...but it is possible. Now that I know where to go and who to see the next Audi will be easy too.
Your AH3 deal was exceptional, congratulations, but 17.5% off MSRP (excluding rebates, allowances, etc) isn't typical for BMW or Audi ED's.


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## jwac (Dec 2, 2006)

CTSoxFan said:


> I think you need to find a new CA then...there should be no reason that you can't do an ED, now you probably won't get ED invoice plus pricing, but why shouldn't you be able to do it?


According to my CA, the dealer doesn't have any available allocations. He may also be assuming that I'm not willing to pay anything near MSRP, as I've bought several cars from him at ED invoice + pricing. Once the 'embargo' is lifted I'd expect him to be willing to write me a deal the next day.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

One more clarification- does this mean that even if you opted to do ED, you'd negotiation from US invoice not ED invoice? In other words, in this secnario, there is no ED invoice price for F32s as of yet?

Jon- when you spoke of the dealer "burining a ton of money" if they agrred to do an ED out of their allocation-- does that refer to giving up the CSI bonus, or that if they honored the ED price it woudl come out of their pokcet?

In your experience, when BMW decides to not offer ED on a new model, how long does the embargo typically last? 6 months? 1 year? Can't remember if they did this for the F30

I'm asking not cause i'm interested in the F32, but because I expect there to be a similar scenario when the F22 becomes availbale for ordering and I want to start planning now.


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

The reason ED pricing is available is because BMW does not have to pay the dealership their percentage for an ED car. This works fine for most dealers/models as it does not come out of their allocation (so they still get their allotment of 4 series to sell). When it comes out of there allocation, they are basically agreeing to losing that 7% they would have made on the car if they sold it in the US. That is why it is so hard to get ED pricing on anything that comes out of dealer allocation. Hope that helps, and good luck getting your Raptor.... F22... get it...:rofl::rofl:


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

What you just wrote makes no sense.



miamiboyca said:


> The reason ED pricing is available is because BMW does not have to pay the dealership their percentage for an ED car. This works fine for most dealers/models as it does not come out of their allocation (so they still get their allotment of 4 series to sell). When it comes out of there allocation, they are basically agreeing to losing that 7% they would have made on the car if they sold it in the US. That is why it is so hard to get ED pricing on anything that comes out of dealer allocation. Hope that helps, and good luck getting your Raptor.... F22... get it...:rofl::rofl:


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

Robert A said:


> What you just wrote makes no sense.


Its pretty clear, what did you not understand?


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

What do you mean that ED pricing is available because BMW doesn't pay a percentage for the car?



miamiboyca said:


> Its pretty clear, what did you not understand?


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

Robert A said:


> What do you mean that ED pricing is available because BMW doesn't pay a percentage for the car?


BMW Germany does not have to pay the dealership their bonus for selling the car.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

That may well be true but I don't think the dealership bonus is the reason for the ED discount. Some believe the discount exists because the German government wanted to encourage tourism in the post-WWII era. Today, it is thought to build brand loyalty and it probably continues as matter of tradition.


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

Robert A said:


> That may well be true but I don't think the dealership bonus is the reason for the ED discount. Some believe the discount exists because the German government wanted to encourage tourism in the post-WWII era. Today, it is thought to build brand loyalty and it probably continues as matter of tradition.


You would be mistaken. Do your research - I suggest you read through the ED forum and stickies... :thumbup:


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I have done my research. I know that dealers don't get sales and bonus incentives on ED, but they also don't incur costs associated with carrying the car in inventory. BMW for its part gets paid before the car is even delivered. All that is true.

But I don't believe that BMW offers the discount because of these factors, and in fact I'll bet it costs quite a bit for BMWAG to run the program. The history of ED goes back at least 40 years, and I think the discount is probably tied to creating brand loyalty, encouraging tourism in Germany, and tradition.



miamiboyca said:


> You would be mistaken. Do your research - I suggest you read through the ED forum and stickies... :thumbup:


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## Greg @ East Bay BMW (Jul 6, 2013)

I'd say you're both right :thumbup:


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

Robert A said:


> I have done my research. I know that dealers don't get sales and bonus incentives on ED, but they also don't incur costs associated with carrying the car in inventory. BMW for its part gets paid before the car is even delivered. All that is true.
> 
> But I don't believe that BMW offers the discount because of these factors, and in fact I'll bet it costs quite a bit for BMWAG to run the program. The history of ED goes back at least 40 years, and I think the discount is probably tied to creating brand loyalty, encouraging tourism in Germany, and tradition.


I dont doubt that the program creates brand loyalty, encourages tourism in Germany, and has a long tradition, however the 7% difference is the kickback from AG to the dealers. We were discussing the pricing not the tradition.

And for anyone who has done it, knows how awesome it is and that it absolutely builds loyalty.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Source?



miamiboyca said:


> ...however the 7% difference is the kickback from AG to the dealers.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Robert A said:


> Source?


Google BMW Added Value Program.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

You mean here.

I think what you mean to say is that dealers don't receive a CSI bonus for a car they don't deliver, and that makes sense. But no where does it say the CSI (or lack of it) is somehow connected to the 7% ED discount -- you're just making that assumption without foundation.

The 7% ED discount predates the CSI concept by decades. The only thing that changed when CSI was introduced was a narrowing of the retail/wholesale profit margins.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Robert A said:


> But no where does it say the CSI (or lack of it) is somehow connected to the 7% ED discount -- you're just making that assumption without foundation.


They don't say it isn't connected either. It's pretty simple in my mind - one things sells for $5, the other for $6. The only difference between the two is 1 item. How much is that item worth?


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

It is not entirely clear to me precisely why a dealer wouldn't offer ED at this point. What I think John Shafer is alluding to is that initial 4 Series cars will go at or above MSRP and dealers want to squeeze every ounce of profit from a high demand car. Nobody knows how much CSI is given up, but to hear dealers talk about it, it cannot be more than a couple percent.

I still think miamiboyca's statement that dealers are "losing that 7%" is just plain wrong.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

on a ED we do NOT get the 5%............. so if on a ED we sell a car for $200 over ED invoice (example ONLY) that is all we make that's it.............


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## German Expat (Sep 29, 2006)

[email protected] BMW said:


> on a ED we do NOT get the 5%............. so if on a ED we sell a car for $200 over ED invoice (example ONLY) that is all we make that's it.............


So does this mean the CSI is 5% ?


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## enigma (Jan 4, 2006)

Robert A said:


> It is not entirely clear to me precisely why a dealer wouldn't offer ED at this point. What I think John Shafer is alluding to is that initial 4 Series cars will go at or above MSRP and dealers want to squeeze every ounce of profit from a high demand car. Nobody knows how much CSI is given up, but to hear dealers talk about it, it cannot be more than a couple percent.
> 
> I still think miamiboyca's statement that dealers are "losing that 7%" is just plain wrong.


Why would you be so certain that it cannot be more than 2%?

I believe the % varies depending on the CSI score, but based on anecdotal stories I heard, it can easily be more than 2%.

Let's assume that it's flat 5% CSI-based bonus (the number given by Greg) and the MSRP is $50,000. So, on a state-side sale, the dealer is profiting (US MSRP - US Invoice) + CSI Bonus, where CSI Bonus = $2,500 (5% x $50,000) and (US MSRP - US Invoice) = $4,000, assuming the typical 8% spread. That brings the total profit to $6,500.

If the same deal were to be made ED sold at ED MSRP, the profit numbers will look significantly different. The ED MSRP on the same car is roughly $46,500 (US MSRP - 7%), and the invoice is roughly $42,780 (ED MSRP - 8%). So, in this scenario, the profit would be $3,720.

So, you can see why a BMW Center would not want to offer ED even at the ED MSRP since the profit on the same car would be significantly less.


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## miamiboyca (Jun 19, 2012)

Robert A said:


> I still think miamiboyca's statement that dealers are "losing that 7%" is just plain wrong.


Go on believing whatever you'd like. Corporations don't give away 7% just because of tradition, that's just silly.

Either way, I think it's pretty clear that it makes no sense for a dealership to give a car out of their allocation for European delivery and miss out on making thousands. John's statement makes perfect sense. The reality is for now you can expect to pay full US sticker whether you pick it up here or there.

Hopefully the M4 Will come out in 2015 that way when I do my next ED in 2016 it won't come out of dealer allocation and Greg can get me a good deal. :thumbup:


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## GreenLantern (Mar 30, 2013)

miamiboyca said:


> Hopefully the M4 Will come out in 2015 that way when I do my next ED in 2016 it won't come out of dealer allocation and Greg can get me a good deal. :thumbup:


:thumbup:

That's my plan too. I don't care if I don't get the first MY. In fact, I prefer not to. I'll wait until the 2nd MY hits, get a killer deal on ED, and be happy.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

GreenLantern said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> That's my plan too. I don't care if I don't get the first MY. In fact, I prefer not to. I'll wait until the 2nd MY hits, get a killer deal on ED, and be happy.


That was always my plan. M3 lease ends May 2016. 

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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

miamiboyca said:


> Hopefully the M4 Will come out in 2015 that way when I do my next ED in 2016 it won't come out of dealer allocation and Greg can get me a good deal


That won't happen. M Cars will forever more come from dealer allocation.

If the M4 bombs and the economy simultaneously tanks, you might have a chance...


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