# Bmw or audi?



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Guys,

I've been toying with replacing my two SUVs (2006 Volvo XC90 T5 and 2008 Tahoe LT) for a BMW X5d or the Audi Q7 TDI.

Nobody needs to sell me on the diesel choice, that's a given.

I need a 3rd row option and would like to have enough room for road trips with family of 4 with an occassional 5th or 6th passenger. All the SUVs give up any storage with the 3rd seat in place. I'm pretty spoiled by the space in my Tahoe with 3rd seats removed, but find that we really only use it for the occasional raod trip perhaps 2 or 3 times per year. The Volvo doesn't have the 3rd row option and also has plenty of usable trunk space for trips, grocery shopping, etc...

I was pricing out new BMW and Audis, with similar options, and it is clear BMW is not offering a 2013 Diesel option (at least I didn't see it), whereas Audi is offering the Q7 and soon the Q5 (too small for my needs).

On pricing through USAA I can get about $10k off MSRP on the 2012 BMW X5D, with a final price well outfitted of around $61k. The similar Audi Q7 is coming in at around $63k with a very modest discount.

I know the BMW comes with 4 year 50k service plan, which is a plus over the Audi.

My concern is that I'm not getting the feeling that BMW is not truelly comitted to the diesels here in the USA, whereas Audi seems to be full steam ahead.

I like both vehicles for looks and technology. The BMW has a more powerful engine and the Audi Q7 has a bit more space which I like.

Anyone out there have any opinions about which way I should go?


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Do people think Audi buyers are just more comfortable with diesels? Maybe because they are often 'graduating' from VW?

I find it curious that Audi and MB are more hung-ho when it comes to diesels in the USA than BMW seems to be.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

3ismagic# said:


> Do people think Audi buyers are just more comfortable with diesels? Maybe because they are often 'graduating' from VW?
> 
> I find it curious that Audi and MB are more hung-ho when it comes to diesels in the USA than BMW seems to be.


I find it curious about Audi but with MB heck they have been selling diesels here in the States for a number of decades now. My guess with Audi is it is the "graduating" from VW deal.

As far as an X5d v. Q7 and coming from a Tahoe, I'd think the Q7 would offer more the size someone is used to. I say go look at them in person and bring a bunch of crap to put inside to see just how well they fit your needs. Having rented Tahoes and been in friends Q7s it seems like neither really has much storage space when using the third row seating. How much room does an X5 have with a third row seat installed?

If I was picking between the two options and it was the secondary(car I don't drive everyday) then it would be the Q7 for the added space during trips. Only reason I could justifiably buy a mid-large sized SUV is if I were to actually use it on the 4-5 road trips I do a year over just renting a vehicle. Since there are 5 people in my family and never know when others will be with us then the 3rd row seating or whatever it takes to legally sit 6 people would be a preference of mine. But if I am going on a road trip with 5 people then I am going to want to carry the luggage for 5 people too and not on the roof hopefully.

If I was picking and it would be my primary car then I'd probably go with the more powerful choice and just think in the back of my head when I need something bigger I will just rent it. Sounds like you only need the extra space a handful of times per year. So really you could take the approach I take currently which is rent a Tahoe, Suburban, or mini van for those trips. Seems almost senseless to own a big vehicle that never really is needed, even though I am guilty of that myself.


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## AndyX5d (Apr 1, 2012)

I found that while the Q7 is bigger, the inside seemed cramped. I didn't like how the rear cargo area was raised seemingly taking away a lot of usable space. I do think that a third row in the Q7 is probably going to give you more room than the X5 with a 3rd row. When it came down to buying an suv with a third row we chose the Accra MDX for the wife. It has a 3rd row that is usable and still has a bit of room in the back for storage, but not much. It doesn't come close to the fuel mileage of one of the these two other cars with a diesel. A great mid sized suv with a great 3rd row and storage to boot is the line up from GM the nicest being the GMC Arcadia Denali. I know that line up can't touch the luxury of the Audi or BMW, but have the functionality and room you want.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I road in some GM SUV the other day and the thing was like being inside a cave. It had three rows of seat and a ton of room but the name is slipping my mind right now. My friends wife ended up going to the MDX after looking at all the others they just liked it the most for their needs and they were looking at Audi, BMW, MBZ and who knows what else.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Flyingman said:


> Guys,
> 
> I've been toying with replacing my two SUVs (2006 Volvo XC90 T5 and 2008 Tahoe LT) for a BMW X5d or the Audi Q7 TDI.
> 
> ...


My suggestion is a contrarian choice and it is based on my feelings that the x5 and Q7 are both too small for long road trips. If you must have a diesel I strongly suggest the MB GL350 bluetec. The price is very similar to the x5 and the Q7, but you get a much larger and more practical SUV. Take a look at one and you will see why I say this.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> My suggestion is a contrarian choice and it is based on my feelings that the x5 and Q7 are both too small for long road trips. If you must have a diesel I strongly suggest the MB GL350 bluetec. Take a look at one and you will see why I say this.


I know someone that got one of these when they retired and specifically for road trips with the grandkids. Those things seem much bigger inside than outside. I'd say somewhere between a Tahoe and Suburban. But also even more money to get than an X5 or Q7.


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## SFbay (Mar 1, 2012)

Bmw is not committed to the diesel???
Look in Europe 80% diesel bimmers and they're doing great. X5 looks much better and handles like a dream. Audi q7 is just an overpriced vw Tuareg.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm in Europe for 3 weeks and it is true that there are as many, if not more diesels on the road than gas powered vehicles. However, I question BMW's commitment to diesels in the US. They have not sold real well and the service departments at many dealers seem unfamiliar with them.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Bimmer App


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Snipe656 said:


> I know someone that got one of these when they retired and specifically for road trips with the grandkids. Those things seem much bigger inside than outside. I'd say somewhere between a Tahoe and Suburban. *But also even more money to get than an X5 or Q7.*


Not really. The GL350BT starts at 62k and can be had well eqipped for 67k minus some discounts it would not be much more than the x5 and Q7, but it is a much larger car. When you take size into the equation you get more for your money with the GL.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

rmorin49 said:


> I'm in Europe for 3 weeks and it is true that there are as many, if not more diesels on the road than gas powered vehicles. However, I question BMW's commitment to diesels in the US. They have not sold real well and the *service departments at many dealers seem unfamiliar with them.*
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Bimmer App


That right there is a very big factor for me. But I could seer the counter argument of if someone presently owns one and has great service experiences. But then I'd question if the dealer ever had to diagnose/fix something diesel related v. just maintenance.



Alpine300ZHP said:


> Not really. The GL350BT starts at 62k and can be had well eqipped for 67k minus some discounts it would not be much more than the x5 and Q7, but it is a much larger car. When you take size into the equation you get more for your money with the GL.


Interesting because I only have shopped them used and they were around the price you are mentioning for new. Probably difference in options. Before I got the BMW the GL was what I wanted but I never seriously shopped them at dealers.


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

I had a GL450 for a 51 month lease and I was sad to see it go. Everyone who rode in it couldn't get over how smooth and quite it was. It wasn't an S"A"V, but it was a very nice way to haul people and cargo on long trips. Since 2013 is a redesign, there might be some good deals on the 2012s in the near future.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

What is a S"A"V?


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Snipe656 said:


> What is a S"A"V?


Sport activity vehicle which is is what BMW calls the x3 and x5.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Sport activity vehicle which is is what BMW calls the x3 and x5.


Okay. They all look like trucks with camper tops to me though.


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

As much as its possible to prioritize and categorize what will be best on paper. I find that the test drive makes the real difference in vehicle choice.


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## DnA Diesel (Jul 31, 2010)

Flyingman, like Alpine said, I would give the GL a look. The X seems the smallest of the X, Q7 then GL crowd. The 3rd seat really isn't much of a seat...


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

@Flyingman I test drove a used MB GL and man was it huge with all its toys in it, but for a single man it was to much for me. I suggest you look at a used MB and go for it, the other SAV/SUV do not have the space "Comparo" to this behemuth. If It were my choice I sadly(sorry guys Im a Bimmer guy) would take the MB over the X5d, remember BMW charges extra for the third row if not mistaken!!


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

Take a look at the Buick Esclade. The "luxo" version of the GM triplets. Very nice machine with plenty of third row room. Worth checking out if only to tell you "how much better the (fill in the blank) is" -- or not. Be careful though, you might wind up buying one. For diesels, the only domestic to offer them next year will be the Jeep GC and probably the year after than the Durango. Good luck!:thumbup:


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

@UncleJ the jeep should be available this summer the way I understand it


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## boooomer (Apr 23, 2010)

Penguin said:


> As poor as BMW reliability is, the experience of my friends over the years is that Audi is much worse. I do not even consider purchase of an Audi simply because every one of my friends with an Audi (about six in the past ten years) all had chronic problems the dealers could not fix.
> 
> Yeah, I know it is a small sample size, but 6 out of 6 is enough for me to mark Audi off my list of possibilities.


With the exception of my '90 v8q, I've had very good luck with my Audis.

The conventional wisdom with any manufacturer is to stay away from a new model in its first year in production. And because of the many unique req'm'ts of US models, I would add to try to avoid cars in their first year imported to the US. 
This is born out with my '07 A3 - which was in it's second year of production in the US. Mine has been trouble free and a GREAT car. But The '06 A3 was more problematic as it was it's first year in the US but had several years of production under its belt in Europe. My source for this is my own experience & Consumer Reports which offer very strong opinions on the A3.

My '90 V8q had 2 strikes against it - first year intro to the US and it had many engineering "firsts" which were great in theory, but wildly expensive to maintain. It was a great car and has a cult following by folks who have the patience and expertise to work on the car. 
As tempting as the new Audi TDIs about to be introduced to the US next year, I would be wary or at least recognize the importance of an extended warranty. It will be interesting to see how the new '12 TDI Passats do. Maybe VAG has gotten past this issue. Time will tell.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule of thumb - for instance, the BMW '09 D's appear to be doing fine.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

hotrod2448 said:


> I also have avoided owning a LR in the past because of the reliability issues you hear so much about but, for some reason much like the G wagen I just can't stop liking them. Every time it comes time for a new car we go to LR and always leave saying "I'd buy one... if I hadn't heard so much about the reliability issues."
> 
> That said I think I'm finally past that. I've noticed for a vehicle that supposedly has tons of problems you still see a lot of the older ones on the road. Not sure if that is a testament to how much the owners love them or an indication that the problems they have are exaggerated.:dunno: I've seen a few Discos/LR3 around here done up in full off-road prep and I really want either on of those or a G500/G550 next.


Something to keep in mind. The older Land Rovers are relatively inexpensive to repair and that might be why you see older ones still laying around. It is a car with a cult following and some people just love them. I am starting to really appreciate the Range Rover for what it is and that is the only reason I am willing to consider a purchase of a car so expensive. I too like the G wagon for the same reasons that I like the Rover, but I think the Rover is a better car for its stated purpose and it does cost a lttle bit less than the G wagon.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Out of curiosity are you going to use what you get for offroad use? I am interested in one for the size of it and quite honestly would probably never leave a paved road with it. Sure I might drove over a median when stuck in gridlock traffic but that is about it for "off roading" from me. I'd expect all of these to wear out their struts/shocks around the 60k mark because of the weight of the vehicles. You probably could tolerate them to 80-100k miles unless it is a failure that effects ride height and that seems to be the common failure for the air suspensions. I have read on the MLs at least that you will save a TON of money on replacements(suspension parts) just by buying the replacements MBZ parts online over the dealers. So almost expect to replace struts/shocks every time you replace tires.

Before I got my BMW the GL is what I wanted to get in 1-2 years. I was saving up for it and my plan was to make our Accord last until ready. The Accord got some problems though I was unwilling to pay the money to fix. So I tried using my old 300SD but unfortunately I had been ignoring a known vacuum leak and discovered that was stupid because it got the transmission to the point it is today which is needing to be rebuilt. I might still eventually get one but never did research problems on them. I just know two people with them, one with the older CDI and one with a 4ish year old Blutec. Neither of the GLs I know about have had any real issues but that is a very small sampling of cars to look at too.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

My buddy's wife had a LR Discovery from the Mid-90s (super tall & boxy) and got rid of it because at the time they just couldn't afford the very expensive upkeep. She loved it and regrets having gotten rid of in favor of a Lexus RS. She isn't interesting in the new ones but would buy an old discovery in a heart beat despite all of the mechanical problems they have.

There was also a great episode of Top Gear where they trekked across South America in 4x4's and of course Jeremy Clarkson chose and circa 90s Range Rover. May and Hammond ridiculed him mercilessly for doing so.


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

Penguin said:


> As poor as BMW reliability is, the experience of my friends over the years is that Audi is much worse. I do not even consider purchase of an Audi simply because every one of my friends with an Audi (about six in the past ten years) all had chronic problems the dealers could not fix.
> 
> Yeah, I know it is a small sample size, but 6 out of 6 is enough for me to mark Audi off my list of possibilities.


I actually traded in a first year 2007 (very early production) Audi Q7. I got one of the first ones off the lot when they came out. Zero major issues in 4 years at all.


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

OP, I've owned both. X5 and Q7.

Q7 is larger, has a better interior, feels higher quality, has better resale, is more comfortable, but the X5 drives so much better. Not to mention, the diesel power plant in the BMW is better IMO.

I wouldn't get a Q7 now because the next gen Q7 is around the corner.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Something to keep in mind. The older Land Rovers are relatively inexpensive to repair and that might be why you see older ones still laying around. It is a car with a cult following and some people just love them. I am starting to really appreciate the Range Rover for what it is and that is the only reason I am willing to consider a purchase of a car so expensive. I too like the G wagon for the same reasons that I like the Rover, but I think the Rover is a better car for its stated purpose and it does cost a lttle bit less than the G wagon.


When I say older I'm talking about early 90's through mid 00's. You know the ones that are supposedly waiting to leave you on the side of the road, crying and bankrupt. I really love the classic old series II and defender 110's but, I don't think I could tolerate one as a daily driver. There was a defender fire truck (yes, I said fire truck) for sale here in Charlotte a few months ago that was a grey market import and I really had a hard time not bidding on it.

I've driven a couple of G wagens and every time I end up not being able to justify the money mainly because of how badly it rides and then and months later yet again I find myself looking at them thinking "I want one of those".:rofl:

I do take my SUV's off road but, nothing too serious. Mostly miles of dirt roads. I like to fly fish and there are a few areas I go that have some pretty minor off road trails to get up, nothing that requires skid plates or even half the capability of a G wagen.


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## billj214 (May 28, 2012)

Our Land Rover group has a member who owns a G-Wagon, we took him in since there are not enough GW owners in any location to form a club. He takes his wagon off-roading and can do any trail an LR3, Series II or D90 can go with ease, I really like his G-wagon, its a beauty!

Also at this years annual rally event we had two 2012 RR Sprorts show up, one of them had installed rock sliders and M/T Tires, the other was stock but did the trails and aquired a few scratches but they had a great time.

http://azlro.org


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

billj214 said:


> I don't typically pay attention to comments that state generalizations without any facts unless its strictly an opinion. The statement that more expensive cars break down may be true but not likely true for all cars, also the statement it costs more to fix would be something I think we can all agree on!
> Anyone that owns an expensive car typically also can afford the extra warranty and will buy it if they intend on keeping the car for a long time.


Although I generally agree with this, it does not relate to anything I said.


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

As far as off road capable SUV's goes no one has mentioned two very capable cars that I suspect hardly ever go off road. Those are the Porsche Cayenne and the VW T-egg. They have very robust suspensions with lockers and I suspect (the Porsche for sure) hardly ever leave the pavement. Of course this was realized and that capability was downgraded in the new versions to save weight and of course $$$$. However the older versions still have a very capable off road suspension, easily matching the very expensive and rare G-Wagen and I supect exceeding the GL/M and R version of the MB chassis:angel:.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

OK, been laying low over the summer months.  Time to pick this back up!:thumbup:

I recently sold my 2008 Tahoe LT. A great car for larger family and road trips, but alas I just couldn't justify having 3 cars any more and it was a gas guzzler in the city at about 12mpg with 18mpg hwy.

So now I'm left with a 2006 XC90 and my trusty 335D.:thumbup:

Plan is to trade-in the XC90 for a new Diesel SUV. After loking at all the option out there today it is coming down to the X5 35D, the Q7TDI and the GL350TDI. What is very clear is that the BMW is much more affordable than the others, coming in at around $55k well equipped after all the discounts and incentives. The Audi will be some $6k-$8k more and the MB GL350 will be even higher at nearly $70k. Throw in the 4yr/50k miles maintenance free, the BMW is just in another league.

My problem remains getting over the lack of rear trunk space in the X5, the Q7 is just a bit better with the GL truely having the space I would like. I'm leaving the T-EGG and Cayenne out because of lack of rear space as well.

I remain concerned about the apparent lack of interest by BMW in the Diesel selections for the US. X5D is not available as a 2013 but you can still order the 2012, so I assume they are holding the line for the 2014 MY (possibly?).

It is hard to look past the great deal on the X5, and can't get anything close to that with MB or Audi.

Anybody have any further suggestions/thoughts/considerations on this?:dunno:


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> Anybody have any further suggestions/thoughts/considerations on this?


VW Toureg, possibly. Only other thing available with diesel, awd and in about the size you want.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

How important is the added space to you? If very important then one thing I would try doing is going on cars.com and searching for new GL350s sitting on dealer lots that are not the current model year. Then contact that dealer and ask them what sort of deal they can pass on since the vehicle is "old". I just looked and using the advanced search to limit the max MY to 2011, selecting only diesel powered GLs and distance from me to Any returned 3 vehicles supposedly still sitting at dealers. You might be surprised at what sort of deal they could pass on those, I was seeing $15k discounts on C63s when I took a similar approach to searching.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

How often do you actually need the trunk space? If it's a situation where it's only every once in a while or only on road trips would a roof box work for the extra storage?

It's been a while so, I don't recall but have you driven the other options? I recently drove the ML (I know it's not the GL) and there is no way I'd be happy driving that everyday compared to my X5. I may just not be an M-B person though. The steering was just so numb and over assisted, I didn't like the user interface, M-command I think it's called, it seemed counter intuitive but, I've had idrive for 5+ years so maybe I'm just programmed to expect things to work a certain way.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

hotrod2448 said:


> How often do you actually need the trunk space? If it's a situation where it's only every once in a while or only on road trips would a roof box work for the extra storage?


Or why not just rent an SUV for when those trips take place and buy a car to replace the Volvo SUV.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Flyingman said:


> OK, been laying low over the summer months.  Time to pick this back up!:thumbup:
> 
> I recently sold my 2008 Tahoe LT. A great car for larger family and road trips, but alas I just couldn't justify having 3 cars any more and it was a gas guzzler in the city at about 12mpg with 18mpg hwy.
> 
> ...


I too am shopping for an SUV and have the x5 on my short list. I have spent some time talking to people over in the E70 forum and I have decided that, if I get an x5, it will not be a diesel. I want the m sport package and BMW does not offer the option to put m sport on the x5d. Stupid in my opinion, but it is what it is. I too am looking at the GL, but I am looking at the 550 version. Going to test drive a 2013 (new bodystyle) in the next couple of weeks. The other choices for me are the ML 550/63AMG and the Range Rover supercharged. Sounds like you need a GL sized car and that is probably the best car for you. There are a few leftover 2012 GL350BT left laying around and you might be able to get a nice deal on one if you do not require the updated body. I personally think the update looks much better so I would pass on the leftover. Back to the x5d...if you can do without adaptive drive (please test drive it before you buy..it is not the best suspension) then a nicely equipped d is 65k with about 10k in incentives plus expected dealer discount (500-750 over invoice, diesel credit, app credit, loyalty and drive for the team). If you add in adaptive drive (which I would require because of the lack of sport suspension) the car's price, for me, jumps to over 70k making the x5d a not so great deal compared with a 3.5i gas car for 5k less. Since I require a real sport suspension or adaptive drive the diesel just does not work for me.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

I found the MB GL to be a very heavy truck when I drove it.

Why not take all of them for a test drive?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I'd imagine it is rather hard to make something big not drive like a heavy truck. With that said, I don't think my heavy truck drives as nice as a GL at all.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> I too am shopping for an SUV ...Since I require a real sport suspension or adaptive drive the diesel just does not work for me.


No SUV can really have a sport suspension that can compete with that on a sedan/coupe.:tsk:


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## billj214 (May 28, 2012)

Back to my original point on this thread, Land Rover seems to be the niche for the luxury SUV owners who want power, comfort, room and off-road capability.

An exiting new possibility is the Range Rover diesel hybrid - http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57507906-48/land-rover-confirms-a-diesel-electric-hybrid-for-2013/


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> I look forward to seeing what you say after you have driven all the options you are considering. I happen to like the ML but think I am in the minority on that in this forum.


I'm with you on liking the new ML design both exterior and interior.
At the time I was looking for a mid-size SUV, it had to be a diesel so my only choice were x5/ML/VW. The Q7 is too big and the wife preferred a M-B but the new ML was not out yet so I leased a 2011 ML for 3 years.

If all the bugs are worked out by the time my lease is up I will likely get the W166. But by then the new x5 and maybe other brands or smaller SUV diesels will be added to the selection.

In the meantime my ML fills the need very nicely. Being the last model year all the bugs had been worked out and it came will all the bells and whistle and added luxury at a discounted price.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Bimmer App


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

DC-IT said:


> I'm with you on liking the new ML design both exterior and interior.
> At the time I was looking for a mid-size SUV, it had to be a diesel so my only choice were x5/ML/VW. The Q7 is too big and the wife preferred a M-B but the new ML was not out yet so I leased a 2011 ML for 3 years.
> 
> If all the bugs are worked out by the time my lease is up I will likely get the W166. But by then the new x5 and maybe other brands or smaller SUV diesels will be added to the selection.
> ...


Last Decemeber I looked at an ML BL that was the old body style and still new on the lot with a hefty discount. When the guy told me about some of the improvements the new body style had is when I decided to pass on the old. If he would have had a a new body style BL on the lot then I'd probably bought it.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

I drove a used one but they wanted $50k for a 3 yr old behemouth I said no way Jose!! plus I wanted something smaller and sportier so I opted for 335d


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

DC-IT said:


> I'm with you on liking the new ML design both exterior and interior.
> At the time I was looking for a mid-size SUV, it had to be a diesel so my only choice were x5/ML/VW. The Q7 is too big and the wife preferred a M-B but the new ML was not out yet so I leased a 2011 ML for 3 years.
> 
> If all the bugs are worked out by the time my lease is up I will likely get the W166. But by then the new x5 and maybe other brands or smaller SUV diesels will be added to the selection.
> ...


DC-IT, what made you go for the ML vs the X5D?

How are you with the ML engine?

How about trunk space overall?

Thanks!:thumbup:


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> DC-IT, what made you go for the ML vs the X5D?
> 
> How are you with the ML engine?
> 
> ...


Here in Canada, M-B offered the ML with special packages for the 2011 final model year before the W166.
1. The Advante Garde.
2. The Grande Edition.
The Grande Edition was the top model with special two-tone 20" alloys, AMG steering wheel and the dash is finished in Artico leather with contrast stitching on the dash and seats. The side mirrors are also updated to the current versions. It also came fully loaded with NAV, rear view camera and special paint.
I went for the Grande Edition. I won't have got the ML if it was the standard model.

The BlueTec engine is well proven and reliable and the 400 lb-ft torque suits it just fine but it's not the same as our D.
The trunk space is more than adequate plus if you fold down the second row you have a humongous storage capacity.

If it were not for the Grande Edition model I would have gone with the X5.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Bimmer App


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Flyingman, I just took a few pictures of my 2011 ML Grand Edition for you to see.
You can check it out against the normal ML. Mine is the unique Chromite Black paint with 20" bi-color alloys and black Antracite panels rather than wood.
If you can find a used one in the US it might be worth checking out as you will save a significant amount when you compare to the new model with the same features.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Very nice indeed. I like the stitched leather seats and dash.

How many miles do you have on it now and what has been it's reliability thus far?


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

I've put in around 25,000 miles without any issue with the diesel engine. It pulls very strong and when you punch the fuel paddle the torque kicks in to let you make a quick pass on the highway much like our D except it doesn't feel the same being a single turbo and a much heavier vehicle.
I do have an issue with the auto lighting which is common with the ML both gas and diesel.
On a bright sunny day with blue skies the headlights would often switched on and you can't turn it off!
I've brought it in to service but can't seem to get it fixed.
M-B claims its a blue-sky syndrome!lol.
Its not a safety issue just an annoyance.
Other than that it's a joy to drive on the highway (solid and instill a lot of confidence) and you can get 30+ mpg.

In Canada the MLBT comes with normal tires not rft with a repair kit.
When my lease is up in mid 2014, I'll likely buy it out if it has been reliable.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Bimmer App


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

DC-IT said:


> Other than that it's a joy to drive on the highway (solid and instill a lot of confidence) and you can get 30+ mpg.
> 
> In Canada the MLBT comes with normal tires not rft with a repair kit.
> When my lease is up in mid 2014, I'll likely buy it out if it has been reliable.
> ...


Do you get 30+ mpg averages for tanks?

I have been wondering about the newer style ML and the tires. Since I was told it does not come with RFTs any more but never actually looked at one to verify that statement.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Do you get 30+ mpg averages for tanks?
> 
> I have been wondering about the newer style ML and the tires. Since I was told it does not come with RFTs any more but never actually looked at one to verify that statement.


No. Only on road trips. Toronto highways often get quite congested and that kills the FE.
Plus I don't use cruise control and tend to drive with a heavy foot to enjoy the benefits of the diesel TQ!
My avarage per tank as per my fuelly records are 23.8 mpg.

The new ML's DEF refill is beside the Diesel refill which is more convenient than mine.
But my ML's DEF refill is in the trunk which is actually quite easy too and certainly much easire than our D.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

DC-IT said:


> .
> The new ML's DEF refill is beside the Diesel refill which is more convenient than mine.
> But my ML's DEF refill is in the trunk which is actually quite easy too and certainly much easire than our D.


The moving of this and therefore supposedly allowing for a spare and non RFTs was a big plus for me. It actually is what stopped me from buying the prior model


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I did notice the donut spare in the center rear area, so assumed it wasn't RFTs. That would be a plus if standard. BMW would of course charge you extra to change them I assume, then you have to figure out where to put the spare kit. If you don't get the 3rd row there is a nice spot for it there underneath the rear floor.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Missus and I did the test drive of both the ML and the GL. The ML350 was gas, no diesels available and it was a 2013. The GL350 was a BlueTec but a 2012. Again, no MB Diesels out for 2013 yet.

The GL was very nicely equipped and after comparing the two models we really prefer the GL size. Price difference after USAA Discount and end of MY got the GL down to about $63K while the similarly equipped but not as "rugged" ML was in the $53k range. For $10k more I think it is well worth it to step up to the larger vehicle we really originally wanted.

I have to say I think MB has done a pretty good job on these newer models. Looks, function, utility, etc... Finish also looked to be quite good.

Let's see if they deal.:thumbup:


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Flyingman
You should check out the 2013 GL even if it's the gas model to see the upgraded interior and exterior.
It's worth waiting for the new MY BlueTec and you may regret getting the out going model.
The higher HP and torque on the new diesel power train would benefit the larger GL.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Bimmer App


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Patience is a virtue.:thumbup:

The 2013 Diesels won't be out till 1st Qtr 2013.

I think we'll wait. One major change is electric steering across the fleet. It is trully amazing to see all of the technology being packed into the new model vehicles now days.

Collision avoidance, lane change control, dowsiness control, heck they are even offering vibrating massage seats now!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

DC-IT said:


> Flyingman
> You should check out the 2013 GL even if it's the gas model to see the upgraded interior and exterior.
> It's worth waiting for the new MY BlueTec and you may regret getting the out going model.
> The higher HP and torque on the new diesel power train would benefit the larger GL.
> ...


Is the GL actually getting the revised BT engine that the ML and S have? I only ask because seemed like the E class did not get it for some reason.

I think the only problem with holding out for the 2013 MY is they are not going to deal much at all on them. The 2012 they will.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree, they won't be dealing much, at first. Might have to wait until well into the year to see what breaks I can get.

We were really quite fond of the GL. I test drove it and the power was ample, only little hesitation.

I also think their MPG is a bit understated, certainly appears to be the case when I look at what is posted for actuals on Fuelly. Avg in the 22mpg range, city/hwy, is pretty darn good for this rather heavy vehicle.

My Tahoe got about 12mpg city and 18 hwy with RWD. Of course it had fantastic acceleration with the 5.3l V-8.

Decisions, decisions.:dunno::dunno:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Reported to have an improved version of the Blue tec in the 2013. A bit more HP and Torque, with some better efficiency.

Not a lot of changes otherwise. I think I can wait!

*The engine choice for 2013 is arguably the best reason owners of the first-gen GL may consider trading up. Our "new" favorite, the base GL350, has a turbocharged, 3.0-liter Bluetec diesel V6. It has more power and is more fuel-efficient than the outgoing diesel. It's rated to produce as much as 240 horsepower and 455 pound-feet of torque.

While the EPA mileage hasn't been announced, we got a startling 23.5 mpg ***8212; assuming we can believe the trip computer ***8212; over a 200-mile loop that included lots of desert and mountain driving from Santa Fe, New Mexico, to Taos and back. With a 26.4-gallon tank, Mercedes says to expect a range of 600-700 miles. *


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Reported to have an improved version of the Blue tec in the 2013. A bit more HP and Torque, with some better efficiency.
> 
> Not a lot of changes otherwise. I think I can wait!
> 
> ...


From what I remember it is actually the same engine but they are using some special block coating they had just used in AMG engines. The coating being used to raise the efficiency of the engine and end result is better mpg and power.

It has been a couple years but I used to know someone with a GL BT and I remember him telling me he was getting low to mid 20s just around town. I can't recall the exact number he said but I was amazed when he said it and it was a good bit over what they are rated at. But of course I have read countless times that the way the EPA rates mpg for diesels is flawed and that is why they all seem to get better mpg ratings for owners.


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

Flyingman said:


> Reported to have an improved version of the Blue tec in the 2013. A bit more HP and Torque, with some better efficiency.
> 
> Not a lot of changes otherwise. I think I can wait!
> 
> ...


That's awesome. I remember the old GL BT was rather pathetically slow in such a huge beast. 240hp and that much torque should liven it up.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Reported to have an improved version of the Blue tec in the 2013. A bit more HP and Torque, with some better efficiency.
> 
> Not a lot of changes otherwise. I think I can wait!
> 
> ...


Update, the wait is over. I'm about to pull the trigger on a new 2013 GL350 Bluetec. I've found one that is moderately loaded, as the price can skyrocket with the available options on this beast. I'm going through USAA Buyers Service so getting a decent discount, a low APR with a further reduction in APR if I set up automatic payment. It is about 2.0% for 60 months, so tough to beat that.

After much debate with the missus over the more practical and affordable X5D, she won out on the GL350. Truth is we really like the extra space the X5 just can't begin to offer. If it was going to be my car, I would have gotten the X5D, but alas, this is for the soccer mom and of course for our bi-annual treks out of Florida.

So far the GL350 has been getting great reviews and I certainly like the looks. HP is upped about 30 more plus about 55 more ft/lbs of torque. EPA is showing 17/21 but folks are reporting closer to 22 combined with up to 26 Hwy.

Last chance if anybody wants to try and talk me out of this!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Is that rate via USAA or MBZ Financial? I am assuming USAA since it seems pretty good and how you worded your post.

Have you driven one of these much? I can't get past the way they shift, bugs me to all ends but that is just me being me.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

Congrats man! I've always loved the Benz diesels growing up as a kid and seeing my dad own many of them.

Only thing about the GL350 is that it's a pretty heavy truck but probably not that much more than an Xd I'd guess.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Arron, I just did a test drive of an ML and a GL. I did not like the way the turn signal was mounted on the 2012 model. They improved this in 2013.

I liked the ride but it was rather short. I didn't really notice any particular issue with the shifting. I know the turbo lag is much more than our Ds.

The interest rate is indeed from USAA. Their Car Buying Service is really nice. It is one stop shopping, pick out your car, apply for loan, get immediate approval, and also get your insurance quote, all in one fell swoop. Print out your certificate, loan approval, and instructions and go pick out your car. No haggling over the price, other than the extra options.

Right now I'm dickering with the internet sales rep over some extras. They have a vehicle that closely matches my requirements, will have to install a few at the dealer, but I'm asking for a break on those options that come with the car I really dont need, like headlight washers and few others.

I'm suffering some sticker shock right now. Definietly the most expensive car I've ever owned (soon).


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

The shifting issue I noticed in all the MBZ Blutecs I drove. It is more of a not shifting issue though. Get on the freeway doing around 60 or so then roll into the throttle, they will not downshift and I find that foreign behavior and it really bugs me. They accelerate but I am used to cars downshifting when apply that sort of throttle level. A sales guy will say it is because of the torque but I am not buying that reason since driven plenty of other diesels that did downshift. Now to be honest last December I decided I just need to learn to live with that and was going to buy a ML Bluetec but that one vehicle sold before I decided and if buying then I had to buy in the 2012 tax season. I really wanted to get an ML550 but only one I found on a lot had almost every option and was a good $15k more than I was willing to pay. 

I'd be curious to know how much you are saving on purchase price via USAA. I have been considering setting up an account with them specifically to end up using their car buying services. I think I can setup a financial account and not have to change insurance providers but not looked hard into it yet.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Aaron,

If ex-military or dependent, you qualify to be a member.

USAA insurance is usually the cheapest around. I work for Liberty Mutual, get employee discounts, etc... and they still can't beat USAA! I've been with them since I got out of college, so some 32 years.

They have a bank as well, which I don't use, but am considering it.

My discount on the price is about $3,500 under MSRP. So it's not a huge savings. The interest rate is much better than what MB offered, unsolicited by the way.

Their discounts on the X5D are better for sure, plus the ECO Credit, really makes that an attractive deal. But the missus says no.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Aaron,
> 
> If ex-military or dependent, you qualify to be a member.
> 
> ...


Strange, I read on the MB forum(admittedly it was 2-3 year old post) that the USAA discount was around invoice plus whatever discounts they have going. So for example if they have a "conquest" program right now that applies to the GL then you'd get that as well. Last Fall they were doing $4k conquests on GLs but that was on 2012 models. guess I just assumed the USAA deal on that expensive of an SUV would be much higher, I remember last fall reading about people getting $10-13k off on GLs but again those were new 2012s and sometimes even new 2011s


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

When I was looking at a 2012 in late 2012, the offer was much better.

The 2013 Diesels just arrived. Apparently they are not much in dealing mood.

Also, the Economy is booming, haven't you heard?:tsk:

I made them a counter offer, asked for $1k more off new or added to my trade in. If they don't take that I will sit out a spell, maybe place a special order and get the features I want to pay for and not have to pay for those I don't want.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Flyingman, consider ordering one for European Delivery and you will save close to 11% off MSRP.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I thought you can't do a ED on a GL because they are made stateside.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Going to buy a car in Europe when it is assembled in Alabama! Heck I'd rather spend a few days on the red neck riviera!:rofl:

Funny thing is when I bought my Z-3 3.0i in Central America I was totally surprised to find out that it was built in USA but shipped from Germany. They apparently ship all of the overseas cars from US to Germany and then they get distributed from there.

Go figure?:dunno:


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

I have USAA and I would gotten somewhat $4k savings in the USoA but not for Puerto Rico and that SUCKED a wad. Those who have USAA go into the auto buying program and you will SAVE some dinero


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Interest rate was 2.25% and for a limited time they will lower the rate by 0.25% to 0.5% if you buy through their buying service.

I assume they get some sort of kickback from the dealers.

I'm still haggling with the Sales Rep at MB. I gave her my final offer lats night and to be honest I kinda hope she does not accept it.

I'd rather just order a new one with all the options as I like them because the one they have has a few that I really do not care about but yet they expect you to pay full price for.

We'll see.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

OK, here is how the saga will end.

After haggling over a $1,000 difference between their offer and what I was willing to give, the SA said the car we were looking at had already been sold, so not available and nothing similar in the area.

They suggested I place an order, get it exactly the way I want it and at the price I was looking for. I really hated paying $1,000s for options I couldn't use or need.

So, I'm placing my order today for a 2013 GL350 Bluetec, Black/Biege Leather, Premium Pkg 1, tow hitch, panarama sunroof, rear entertainment (kiddies), lane assist, 3 zone A/C (for Florida!).

They said it would be built in May and could be delivered end May early June.

I haven't found any negative reviews on this vehicle and they seem to be rather popular on the roads here in S. Flo, at least in the GL450 and 550 configuration.

26MPG Hwy is not too shabby for a vehicle of this size.

I'll have to go find another forum to talk about this vehicle I suppose, but I'll still be hanging out with you guys as my 335D aint going anyplace, but fast!:thumbup:


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## kingbled (Feb 20, 2009)

Going from a tahoe to audi,bmw is an upgrade no matter what. You will feel the change in many ways. Question though why ask random people with all different idea,values,money,family, and tastes?


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

Congrats Flyingman. I've never been an SUV guy but if I was I'd strongly consider the one you're buying!


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## dalekressin (Sep 3, 2008)

Flyingman you won't be dissapointed with your decision.
I chose the Cayenne Diesel and I am pleased with the driving dynamics, fuel efficiency and feel of the vehicle.
My choice was not based on price so much.

USAA rocks and I do not qualify. Thanks to you for your service or those of family.


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

Noticed some fellow USAA members. My 335d is "owned" and insured by USAA. Member since 1967.

I am intrigued by the Cayenne diesel. That is the one high end SUV that interests me. Well, the Range Rover too. Both quite a step above my little Forester.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Flyingman said:


> I haven't found any negative reviews on this vehicle....


Dan Neil the Pulitzer Prize winning car journalist for the Wall Street Journal apparently doesn't like it:

"Ordinarily I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the diesel version of the GL, which has range, mileage and impeccable refinement on its side. The diesel's 455 pound-feet of peak torque (1,600-2,400 rpm), is plenty capable of stirring the big truck to 60 mph in 8.3 seconds, give or take a Russian girlfriend. Fast enough. The OM642 is a tractable, effortless and flexible powerplant at urban speeds, with minimal inertia and almost nothing of what you'd call turbo lag.

However, the GL350 does start to run out of reserve acceleration at interstate speeds. On some of California's more demanding freeways, I imagine the GL might feel a little pokey. The AMG's 5.5-liter certainly has the cure for that."

I haven't driven the diesel GL, but it would still be one of my preferred choices.

PL


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

kingbled said:


> Going from a tahoe to audi,bmw is an upgrade no matter what. You will feel the change in many ways. Question though why ask random people with all different idea,values,money,family, and tastes?


Well, it appears my passion for a well designed and engineered vehicle is shared by most on this forum. It is always great to hear many perspectives.

And as we say, "opinions are not like @ssholes, everyone has more than one!"

I've already registered over at the MB site, so i'll be bouncing back and forth.

But don't fret, the GL350 is the wife's car, I'm still the only one driving the 335D!:thumbup:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Not my style Snipe. I towed my dodge intrepid on a uhaul trailer once, with my Ford Aerostar Van. Not doing that again.

They'll deliver it to my local dealer exactly 8 miles from my house (supposedly I can get home delivery with USAA Buyers Service). I can work out any kinks then consider a road trip.

I suppose I will drop of my Vovlo in exchange. Giving up a car to me is almost like giving up a really good pair of shoes, or something like that!:rofl:


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