# ZHP Marketing issues



## KU Ned (Apr 23, 2003)

Are there a couple of people out there that want to coordinate our research efforts regarding the ZHP marketing information? I have sent Team Z4 my VIN information as he requested in the Roundel thread so he can do some detailed research of specific parts.

If BMW NA misrepresented the ZHP I believe they will be quick to try to remedy the situation once it is brought to their attention. M-B was quick to offer my dad any option available on the car when he notified them that his C32 AMG did not have the exact seats that were listed in the marketing information. Mazda has offered refunds and to repurchase the RX-8 and Miata after misrepresenting hp. 

I believe we have a claim against BMW NA if in fact the modifications to the stock 330i that were represented in press releases and marketing materials are not as represented.

Who wants to run with the research?


----------



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Hack, Kaz and Vince did an extensive research on the ZHP package, IIRC.


----------



## KU Ned (Apr 23, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> Hack, Kaz and Vince did an extensive research on the ZHP package, IIRC.


Their research is a good start. We need to compile the information that is reported in other posts and do a quick review of the law to determine what, if any laws have been violated and put together a letter to BMW NA. I don't have the technical expertise to do this but many on this board do.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Ned,

What makes you question this ? Just curious because I don't recall reading anything on the board that says the ZHP package isn't what it should be ... do you have any threads you can point me to so I can catch up on this ?


----------



## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> Ned,
> 
> What makes you question this ? Just curious because I don't recall reading anything on the board that says the ZHP package isn't what it should be ... do you have any threads you can point me to so I can catch up on this ?


Where on earth have you been the last couple of weeks? If I remember correctly, you've commented in a couple of the marketing package threads? (are you being sarcastic?)

KU Ned, let me know what I can do to help. I'm pretty isolated as far as being near other 'fest members. But I'll lend a hand wherever I can.


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm in, I want to get to the bottom of this issue. Hack & Co.’s exam contradicts just about everything in regards to the marketing material. Love my car, however, if there are no differences in the suspension components between the standard sport suspension and that of the zhp, than there is some serious misrepresentation here.


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

If I understand their arguments correctly, Hack & Co. maintain that there are 3 discrepancies between the marketing materials and what was actually delivered to customers:

BMW claimed the ZHP had firmer springs, by 6% at the front and 8% at the rear. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.

BMW claimed the ZHP had different shock absorbers: Front, 50% firmer in jounce, 35% in rebound; Rear, 20% firmer in jounce, 8% softer in rebound. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.

BMW claimed the ZHP had larger diameter anit-roll bars by .5 mm front and rear. I believe Hack's physical exam of a ZHP's bars showed the cars had 23mm and 18mm front and rear bars, identical to the 330 sport package.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

philippek said:


> If I understand their arguments correctly, Hack & Co. maintain that there are 3 discrepancies between the marketing materials and what was actually delivered to customers:
> 
> BMW claimed the ZHP had firmer springs, by 6% at the front and 8% at the rear. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.


Small correction. We didn't have a way of verifying any changes in the springing, as there are only paint stripes on the springs, not part #s.


----------



## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> Has anyone's ZHP become less enjoyable or handle worse since our information came out?


Mine definitely has become much less enjoyable. Well, I can't figure out if it's because of what I now know, or because the streets are lined with snow and ice...

Hack, the problem isn't that we didn't get what we expected to get. The problem is that we paid a LOT more money for a bunch of stuff we didn't get.

I can take my car in to Sears and have them dial in some negative camber for $39.99 (plus tax. hazardous waste disposal fees may be extra). That's a lot less than the $2300 that BMW charged me for the same service last spring. Hell, it's more than just $2300. What about the huge hit I took in vehicle value the second I drove off the lot.

I was hoping for M3 handling, at a 330i price. I didn't get what I was hoping for.

edit: I should mention, that ever since I put on my set of 16" winter wheels, this car has more body roll than a mo-fo.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

ff said:


> Where on earth have you been the last couple of weeks? If I remember correctly, you've commented in a couple of the marketing package threads? (are you being sarcastic?)


I really didn't know there was an issue :dunno: . . . I'll check out the threads later tonight . . . lately I visit the board quickly, make a comment, then sign off.

Unfortunately my dad has been very sick so it's been a crazy time (almost lost him but thank g-d he made it).


----------



## bavarian19 (May 11, 2003)

philippek said:


> If I understand their arguments correctly, Hack & Co. maintain that there are 3 discrepancies between the marketing materials and what was actually delivered to customers:
> 
> BMW claimed the ZHP had firmer springs, by 6% at the front and 8% at the rear. Part numbers are the same as the 330 sport package.
> 
> ...


Could it be that these numbers are a comparison to the non-sport packaged e46's? I remember seeing these numbers back when the ZHP was introduced, but have yet to ride an a ZHP... So my opinion for the most part is irrelevant.


----------



## bavarian19 (May 11, 2003)

AF330i said:


> I really didn't know there was an issue :dunno: . . . I'll check out the threads later tonight . . . lately I visit the board quickly, make a comment, then sign off.
> 
> Unfortunately my dad has been very sick so it's been a crazy time (almost lost him but thank g-d he made it).


Alan, hope all is ok with your father. Ill say a quick prayer for him.


----------



## ak330i (Jul 17, 2002)

ajt819 said:


> Could it be that these numbers are a comparison to the non-sport packaged e46's? I remember seeing these numbers back when the ZHP was introduced, but have yet to ride an a ZHP... So my opinion for the most part is irrelevant.


all 2002+ e46 330 have sport suspension standard. i wouldn't make sense to compare a 330i ZHP with a 325i non-sp.


----------



## bavarian19 (May 11, 2003)

ak330i said:


> all 2002+ e46 330 have sport suspension standard. i wouldn't make sense to compare a 330i ZHP with a 325i non-sp.


But if BMW was claiming these increases in performance, it may be over a non-sport package :dunno:


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Wow I'm amazed by all this talk about BMW's "supposed" marketing deception of its ZHP package. I guess all the nitpicking of the ZHP package from certain 330 owners has finally brain washed some ZHP owners into believing they been ripped off by BMW.


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

ff said:


> I was hoping for M3 handling, at a 330i price. I didn't get what I was hoping for.


I think it's unrealistic to believe that $3900 option package (most of which consists of cosmetic upgrades) could make your 330 (or mine) handle like an M3.



The HACK said:


> From what I can recall, almost all the references to the "0.6" drop, better dampening rate...etc" all came from an early *internal* marketing brochure that's designated for salespersons to use.


I'm not sure that would make a difference in court, Hack. If a plaintiff can prove that a salesperson made the assertion that the ZHP had a "better" or even a "different" suspension, then that misrepresentation could be traced back to BMWNA, and their marketing materials.

There is precedent for BMWNA getting whacked by the courts for deceptive trade practices (Gore v. BMWNA), and if you wanna go for the money, then punitive damages are the way to go.

I don't think any attorney could make a believable argument that I (or any other ZHP owner) was materially damaged by not having an extra .5mm on my sway bars.

For the record, I love my car, and I doubt I'd accept any offer from BMW to buy it back.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

ajt819 said:


> Alan, hope all is ok with your father. Ill say a quick prayer for him.


Thank you very much, I really appreciate it . . . it's one of the hardest times I've been through.


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

Artslinger said:


> Wow I'm amazed by all this talk about BMW's "supposed" marketing deception of its ZHP package. I guess all the nitpicking of the ZHP package from certain 330 owners has finally brain washed some ZHP owners into believing they been ripped off by BMW.


I think you're right Artslinger, and I think it's issues like this that make it so expensive for companies like BMW to do business in the U.S.


----------



## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> Wow I'm amazed by all this talk about BMW's "supposed" marketing deception of its ZHP package. I guess all the nitpicking of the ZHP package from certain 330 owners has finally brain washed some ZHP owners into believing they been ripped off by BMW.


Exactly. If it performs satisfactorily, and one enjoys it, what's the problem? :dunno:

Some people are always just looking for a reason to think they were ripped off. Case in point: that Mojojojo character that was squeezing his festering spleen around here a few weeks ago over a couple of trim pieces.

Lighten up. Some people are just wrapped up a little too tightly.


----------



## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

philippek said:


> I think you're right Artslinger, and I think it's issues like this that make it so expensive for companies like BMW to do business in the U.S.


If you bought this Bic pen for 10% more than the standard Bic pen, under the assumption that the new Bic has a 50% stiffer shaft and 10% more ink, only to find out that the marketing people were comparing it to the Bic pen made in 1956, instead of the current 'lesser' Bic pen, how would you feel? Would you want your money back?


----------



## e46shift (Oct 12, 2002)

: popcorn:


----------



## GeoMystic (Aug 21, 2002)

The HACK said:


> Has anyone's ZHP become less enjoyable or handle worse since our information came out? Have you all not driven the car before you made your decision to purchase?
> 
> Just because we've confirmed that a majority of the parts on the ZHP package is standard sports suspension fare, doesn't mean BMW hasn't put together an excellent package. The camber upfront has changed. The front control arms are changed. Both of those can combine to offer better handling and performance.
> 
> ...


Well said :thumbup:

This car has gotten more enjoyable for me to drive as the months go on and miles scroll up! I have no regrets what so ever on my purchase.

It seems like most of the people complaining about the ZHP package, had nothing to really complain about until you started matching part numbers. 
Aren't you embarressed to label the Performance Package, the "Marketing Package". Everytime I see that phrase it drives me nuts especially in peoples sigs. Have you no pride in what you drive and SPENT MONEY FOR!

I personally do notice the difference between my car and a SP 330i. 
Even if they use the same shocks, springs or whatever. I'm sure changes were made in other areas to achieve the difference in suspension feel. Regardless I am happy with the change and look forward to driving my baby every time I turn the key.

So get out there, throw your car in gear and drive it the way a BMW was meant to be driven! And don't compare the Performance Package to an M3, that makes no sense!


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Man what hell have ya'll been smokin?


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

GeoMystic said:


> Even if they use the same shocks, springs or whatever. I'm sure changes were made in other areas to compensate. Regardless I am happy with the change and look forward to driving my baby every time I turn the key.





rumatt said:


> b) Even if the ZHP is the best handling BMW, it could be due to just a few of the changes (for example, the wheels and final drive ratio). Does this mean that it's OK for BMW to pad the list of features in the ZHP package with 10 fake additions to make it look more marketable? What if the extra 10HP is intentionally fake, as well? Is this OK?


 :dunno:


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

I love my car, I just want what I paid for. I think I have that right.


----------



## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> I love my car, I just want what I paid for. I think I have that right.


Ditto, out of technical curiousity I just want to know what I really have suspension wise.

If the suspension ends up not being much different from the 330 SP it would cause me to raise my eyebrows a little, based on how it was pitched, but I won't enjoy my car less.


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Andy had a good idea; little refund? Or treat it like the m3 engine issue? Or just address the issue. Make a statement.


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

greginaz1 said:


> I didn't scrutinize this entire string to see if somebody has brought this up already but I have a BMW Magazine in my lap dated 1/2003 that indicates on page 22:


This seems to dispute the claim that BMW's statements were in internal documents only (I think it was Hack's post, but now that post is gone.  )

We will probably never come to a consensus on what to think of the ZHP package, but just to set the record straight we could at least create a definitive list of claims made by BMW in official public documents (with verified references).


----------



## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

rumatt said:


> This seems to dispute the claim that BMW's statements were in internal documents only (I think it was Hack's post, but now that post is gone.  )
> 
> We will probably never come to a consensus on what to think of the ZHP package, but just to set the record straight we could at least create a definitive list of claims made by BMW in official public documents (with verified references).


FYI, I also printed 'The 2003 BMW 330I Performance Package' info off of the BMW website when it was on there after I ordered my car in May.

One section states:

*Sport Suspension*

*Upgrades: * Sport calibrated suspension, Lowered stance
*Results:* A firmer ride that stiffens in corners, Reduced body lean, Enhanced feedback, Suppleness over bumps, Faster turn-in, Overall quicker steering response


----------



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

FWIW, I just checked bmwusa.com and in the 330 features and options pages, "sport suspension" is listed as a standard feature and listed under the performance package. No mention of any differences. Under the ZHP blurb on the 330 page it lists "more responsive handling"

: popcorn:


----------



## Frobozz (Oct 10, 2003)

Artslinger said:


> Wow I'm amazed by all this talk about BMW's "supposed" marketing deception of its ZHP package. I guess all the nitpicking of the ZHP package from certain 330 owners has finally brain washed some ZHP owners into believing they been ripped off by BMW.


I don't feel ripped off....I'm pretty ecstatic since I bought my car


----------



## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

ObD said:


> FWIW, I just checked bmwusa.com and in the 330 features and options pages, "sport suspension" is listed as a standard feature and listed under the performance package.  No mention of any differences. Under the ZHP blurb on the 330 page it lists "more responsive handling"
> 
> : popcorn:


That's consistent with new control arms and some additional negative camber. :dunno:


----------



## imola325 (Jun 10, 2003)

I posted the part number on my rear shock (33-52-2-282-461) a while ago and I have yet to see the part number on someone's regular 325 or 330 with sport package. If it's the same I will be upset but I'm not about to start accusing BMW of anything until I see the part numbers. I think people should get the facts straight before making claims of wrongdoing.

I drove cars with and without the M-sport package (sport suspension II) before I bought my car and could feel a difference (I don't think it was tire pressure, although I will check on future test drives). 

This is how BMW Canada lists the performance package:

Includes: Engine: Specially Tuned 3.0L I6 DOHC SMPI, Includes special intake and exhaust camshafts, special electronic engine management system with 6800-rpm redline, specific flywheel configuration and 155-mph top-speed limiter., Sport Suspension II, Sport Seats, M Multi-Function Alcantara Sport Steering Wheel, M Aerodynamic Package, High-Gloss Shadow Line, Black Alu Cube Trim, Anthracite Roof Liner, 18'' M Double Spoke Alloy Wheels - 135 M, Includes 8.0J'' x 18'' front wheels and 8.5J'' x 18'' rear wheels., Transmission: 6-Speed Manual w/Performance Edition, Includes short shifter with 6-speed shift pattern on knob. 

Has BMW released a document that said the sway bars are larger?

I just wish BMW would provide more than vague statements about improved suspension performance. I have also attached a picture of my control arm.


----------



## LDV330i (May 24, 2003)

ObD said:


> FWIW, I just checked bmwusa.com and in the 330 features and options pages, "sport suspension" is listed as a standard feature and listed under the performance package. No mention of any differences. Under the ZHP blurb on the 330 page it lists "more responsive handling"
> 
> : popcorn:


When I was trying to decide whether to buy the Sport (standard on 330i) or Perfomance package I noticed that on the Pricing Sheet the sport suspension on a 325 sport package and on the (330i) performance package had an identical option code of 226.  I did a posting at that time on the info I came across but I do not believe I got any responses. I cannot believe that both packages would have identical suspension parts since the 330 is a heavier car.

I tested the sport (standard 330i) and perfomance packages back to back and the performance package just felt better and knew that was what I wanted to get. 

Many people are complaining about the $3,900 MSP for the Performance Package. Though it is a lot of money, it sounds reasonable to me who paid $2,900 (MSRP) for the sport package for the 318ti, whose base price was $21,000 (in '97 dollars). :yikes: That did not buy any engine tweaks, only a sport suspension, sport seats, alloy wheels,and performance tires, and M bumper covers.


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

KU Ned said:


> Their research is a good start. We need to compile the information that is reported in other posts and do a quick review of the law to determine what, if any laws have been violated and put together a letter to BMW NA. I don't have the technical expertise to do this but many on this board do.


Do you have that much spare time? I know the US is a somewhat litigious place but life has got to be WAY too short for this.

It wouldn't be so bad if it could be proved conclusively that the 330i had, for example, exactly the same suspension. Every time I post that the M Sport II package has different shocks to the standard, sport-suspended 330i, it gets ignored probably because I didn't mention the magiw words "ZHP".

A long long time ago it was brought to everyone's attention that the ZHP suspension is not unique to your market. It's straight out of the M Sport II package, a mostly trim option that has sold in tens of thousands around the world for the last few years. I have seen part numbers for 330i PP owners' front and rear shocks, and they match my 2002 ETK for the 330i with M Sport II package (often called "sporty suspension" in the ETK).

Time to get over it, and put your lawyers away. Really. You know, keep doing this and BMW will just take things away and you'll be back to big-bumpered underpowered beasts. Fine, I don't care, I can still buy all the fun stuff (at a cost, of course).


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

LDV330i said:


> When I was trying to decide whether to buy the Sport or Perfomance package I noticed that on the Pricing Sheet the sport suspension on a 325 sport package and on the (330i) performance package had an identical option code of 226.  I did a posting at that time on the info I came across but I do not believe I got any responses. I cannot believe that both packages would have identical suspension parts since the 330 is a heavier car.
> 
> I tested the sport and perfomance packages back to back and the performance package just felt better and knew that was what I wanted to get.
> 
> Many people are complaining about the $3,900 MSP for the Performance Package. Though it is a lot of money, it sounds reasonable to me who paid $2,900 (MSRP) for the sport package for the 318ti, whose base price was $21,000 (in '97 dollars). :yikes: That did not buy any engine tweaks, only a sport suspension, sport seats, alloy wheels,and performance tires, and M bumper covers.


"Option code 226" means sportier suspension tuning as a standalone option. The US "Sport" pack (for the 325 anyway) combines option 226 with a bunch of other stuff. The Sport pack for the 330i does not contain option 226, as the 330i comes with sports suspension as standard away. Iin fact the 330 range has a "sports suspension delete" option (code 225). Of course just having the same option code (e.g. 226) cannot possibly mean the same actual parts - that would be ridiculous, as BMW would then need an option code for sports suspension for each of the 9 engine variants and 5 bodystyles it makes.

The 330i PP is based around option 338, the M Sport II package, as I keep saying, and as some keep ignoring in the belief that the 330i PP is the only 330i in the world which looks like that. This comprises sportier suspension settings, IN A TUNING WHICH IS NOT available separately (the shock part numbers have a magic "2" as the fifth figure). Thus, you could project this onto option 226 if you were feeling creative, as technically speaking the 330i PP does have sportier suspension settings than the "standard" 330i.

At the end of the day, people can sue, start a class action, punish the liars at BMW because the suspension is not firm enough for their liking. It will leave the rest of us open-mouthed and speechless, but I guess you can do that if you want. Don't then whinge that BMW then takes practically every option away from you. Jesus, I would if all I got was lawsuits because my shock absorbers' rebound rate wasn't sufficiently different to the standard car!


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> Andy had a good idea; little refund? Or treat it like the m3 engine issue? Or just address the issue. Make a statement.


A refund?

Pardon my language, but what the :nono::nono::nono::nono: for?


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

LA525iT said:


> Maybe you should sue for multi-million in punitives and try to get the US Supreme Court to overturn BMW of North America, Inc. v. Gore, 517 U.S. 559
> 
> http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-896.ZO.html


Yes. In fact try and kick them out of the US market altogether. That'll show 'em!


----------



## xfactor (Nov 5, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> Yes. In fact try and kick them out of the US market altogether. That'll show 'em!


I'm not sure if you are mocking this case, but people should be thankful that Gore pursued this claim against BMW. Most of us would agree that we would want to be made aware if our new car (especially one valued at $40,000) was damaged during the course of production or delivery.

As a result of this case, BMW has altered its policy so as to disclose to potential buyers any damage that occurred to the car. The legal system worked as it should -- it compensated the victim for his loss (measured by loss in value) and it provided the notice necessary to BMWNA to change its deceptive policy. The appellate system also functioned appropriately by reducing the punitive damages to those necessary to punish BMW for its conduct while still providing incentive to enact and maintain their new policy of disclosures.

As to the issue with the ZHP, it seems by my casual reading that BMW's promotional materials are NOT inaccurate or misleading. It sounds as if the suspension is different on the ZHP. This hopefully will satisfy most buyers that they got what they paid for. As others have suggested, a court will not be receptive to a claim that the suspension isn't quite firm enough to their liking. Especially among car enthusiasts, everybody has a slightly different preference for how the car drives. As long as BMW did not charge additional money without providing the promised upgrades, there is no case.


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> A refund?
> 
> Pardon my language, but what the :nono::nono::nono::nono: for?


uh...I know that you have tried to make your point that the 330 w/zhp has the m sport II suspension, and Hack & Co. have concluded after a part check that apparently, aside from a control arm or something, that the 330i Sport has the same suspension components. So by simple deduction the 330i Sport also has the m sport II suspension in the US spec cars. This car (zhp) was sold to me having "upgraded" suspension parts including but not limited to shocks, sway bars, etc...it lead me to believe that I was geting a different suspension. It doesn't make any sense that they would compare a 2003 model w/ 2001. apples and oranges. It's not about how the car handles etc. its the fact that I was told this is what it comes with and it doesn't, I paid for it so I'm entitiled. Refund, I was thinking along Andy's line in his post above.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

hugh1850 said:


> It's not about how the car handles etc. its the fact that I was told this is what it comes with and it doesn't, I paid for it so I'm entitiled. Refund, I was thinking along Andy's line in his post above.


I can understand some disappointment that the suspension changes are not as different as we all thought they were but I don't think a refund is really the answer.

First look at what you did get . . . the sports option ($1200) along with the 18" wheels ($900 option) would have totalled $2100., add all the other goodies and you'll be past that $3900 you spent plus keep one thing in mind, at trade-in time, I sure you will get quite a bit more then the $900 trade in addition I'll get for my sport package.

So in the end that $3900 option will not even come close to costing you that much.

To me options are the cost of what the manufacturer charges minus the extra resale value I will get for them. Which in my case makes the $1200 sport package only cost me $300 for the time I have the car.


----------



## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> First look at what you did get . . . the sports option ($1200) along with the 18" wheels ($900 option) would have totalled $2100., add all the other goodies and you'll be past that $3900 you spent plus keep one thing in mind, at trade-in time, I sure you will get quite a bit more then the $900 trade in addition I'll get for my sport package.


What other goodies? A different colored headliner (same cost)? The 325's shadowline trim (less expensive)? Fuzzy shift lever boot (probably less expensive)? Fuzzy steering wheel (maybe a buck or two more expensive)? 
I'd gladly sell my performance-hurting 18" wheels for the $900 profit, and go back to the M68's. 
Also, resale on the ZHP will likely be worse than the 330 SP (when speaking in terms of percentages). The more options you have on the car, the more money you lose at resale time. The smartest buy in any car line will always be the least expensive model with no options.

On a side note: mine came with the same lower control arms as the standard 330i. I checked with Hack a several months ago. I would check a 2004 330i to see if all new 330's have the new control arm.


----------



## KU Ned (Apr 23, 2003)

*Since I started this mess/thread*

I love my car.

With that said, if a letter to BMW NA with specific references to misinformation in marketing materials and internal materials can get some relief (refund or otherwise), why not send the letter. My original post asked for the specific information about specific parts so that a letter can be formulated.

When my dad asked his salesperson about the 10-way adjustable sport seats that were advertised as being in the C32 AMG, the saleperson researched it and told him it was a mistake. The C32 has its own seats and does not have the 10-way adjustable seats that were an option on the normal C320. The saleperson contacted MB USA and they immediately told him to offer any option package that my dad wanted to make up for the mistake. They realized that although the seats in the AMG were great, they were not as advertised which exposed them to liability for false advertising.

This is exactly the same situation. The ZHP is a great package but if specific marketing claims are incorrect, BMW NA has mislead the buyer and should make reparation. If the ride is advertised to be lower by 0.6 inches it should in reality be 0.6 lower than the model it is compared to. Same thing for the other claims.

Anyone with specific information, please pm me and I will try to compile the information. If you have marketing information that can not be sent by pm, pm me and I will send you my e-mail address so you can send pdf's or other electronic information.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

ff said:


> What other goodies? A different colored headliner (same cost)? The 325's shadowline trim (less expensive)? Fuzzy shift lever boot (probably less expensive)? Fuzzy steering wheel (maybe a buck or two more expensive)?


Since you asked . . .

$350 M3 steering wheel
$125 for unpainted Lip spoiler
$350 minimum for an intake
$550 minimum for exhaust plus installation
$800 M tech front 
---------------------
$2175

I am sure I am forgetting some things but also I know your going to tell me that the parts replaced like the stock exhaust, stock steering wheel etc have some value to it which I agree with but there will also be some added resale value plus the fact you get a warranty along with it.

I can also tell you I have added some of these items to my car and will not be getting any resale back for them.

Also for the record, the black trim around the windows is not the same as the 325. The 325 has a flat black compared to your shiny black.


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

AF330i said:


> I can understand some disappointment that the suspension changes are not as different as we all thought they were but I don't think a refund is really the answer.


I agree. My interest in this is not to create a lawsuit or force a refund. I'm just tired of seeing magazine articles report long lists of upgraded suspension parts when it's simply not true. This is either BMW's fault for giving them the wrong info, or the magazines' fault for reporting false facts. Either way, it should stop. Everyone must agree with that. :dunno:


----------



## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> Since you asked . . .
> 
> $350 M3 steering wheel
> $125 for unpainted Lip spoiler
> ...


Your additions make the assumtion that a standard 330 doesn't include any of these items. However, the standard 330 does include an intake, an exhaust system, a bumper, and a steering wheel. 
You can't calculate the value of options based on what it would cost you to buy all new parts aftermarket. Given that thought process, the upgrade $$ from a 325i to a 330i should be equal to buying a 2nd brand new engine, a 2nd set of wheels and tires, a 2nd set of power seats, a 2nd transmision, a 2nd set of bumpers, a 2nd... well, you get the idea.

I love my car (I loved my previous 330 just as much), but I hate being sold something that isn't what was advertised. This is a matter of principle.


----------



## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

To me this is simple. There is specific BMW literature indicating that the Perf Pack had a revised suspension. Now, they could argue that it does, and so do all 330's. But that is deceptive. Deceptive enough that the press bought it. That's already VERY wrong.

In the end, even if BMWNA could argue that the sticker on the window (and this is true - check if you still have yours) says only "sports suspension," I bought my car way before any reviews, any physical evidence, or any opportunity to compare. So at the VERY least, all those who placed an order before the first perf pack arrived definitely were deceived.

The argument is not weather they lied. Because they could say that the suspension was changed, along with all other 330's. The point is that I can get those suspension improvements without paying $3900.


----------



## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> To me this is simple. There is specific BMW literature indicating that the Perf Pack had a revised suspension. Now, they could argue that it does, and so do all 330's. But that is deceptive. Deceptive enough that the press bought it. That's already VERY wrong.
> 
> In the end, even if BMWNA could argue that the sticker on the window (and this is true - check if you still have yours) says only "sports suspension," I bought my car way before any reviews, any physical evidence, or any opportunity to compare. So at the VERY least, all those who placed an order before the first perf pack arrived definitely were deceived.
> 
> The argument is not weather they lied. Because they could say that the suspension was changed, along with all other 330's. The point is that I can get those suspension improvements without paying $3900.


But there were some real and meaningful changes in the $3900 package (which does include some suspension changes) - extra cams and software (10 more hp and speed limiter at 155), final drive change, suspension tweaks and all the cosmetic stuff. For the 330 ZHP consumers, I think you guys got a nice package at an okay deal. I don't think anyone should feel ripped off.

Now for the track/autoX people that have possibly gotten their car classified incorrectly (if it was based partially on press materials and magazine information), this is where the truth can be put to good use. It's possible that the car should be re-classified to C Stock, but it's going to take facts for the contestants to make their case to the SCCA.


----------



## EZ (Feb 27, 2003)

AF330i said:


> $350 M3 steering wheel
> $125 for unpainted Lip spoiler
> $350 minimum for an intake
> $550 minimum for exhaust plus installation
> ...


Engine upgrades and higher electronic limiter. Nomatter how small these upgrades may appear to you, they still cost money and go in the direction that I want.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

ff said:


> Your additions make the assumtion that a standard 330 doesn't include any of these items. However, the standard 330 does include an intake, an exhaust system, a bumper, and a steering wheel.


ff . . .go re-read what I wriote, I did mention that . ..

I don't disagree with you on certain points ... in fact I do agree that it is not right that you (as well as the rest of us) are under the impression that the suspension changes were more then what they actually are . . .

No doubt this is misleading and BMWNA should correct this misleading information.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

rumatt said:


> I agree. My interest in this is not to create a lawsuit or force a refund. I'm just tired of seeing magazine articles report long lists of upgraded suspension parts when it's simply not true. This is either BMW's fault for giving them the wrong info, or the magazines' fault for reporting false facts. Either way, it should stop. Everyone must agree with that. :dunno:


As I wrote above to ff, I completely agree with this train of thought !!

You are 100% correct, something should be done about this.


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Since some of us are having a hard time with the "principle" of this, here's an analogy:

You pull into the drive through at your local fast food joint. The server asks if you would like to super size your order, she says that you get 35% more French fries, an extra slice of cheddar rather than American cheese, and a super sized coke, all for a $1.50 over and above the "large". You say great I'll take it, 'cause its America and its about excess, your buddy who apparently is un-American or perhaps is not as hungry as you are ops for the standard meal deal (items consisting of large size, not supersize). You pull up, pay, and head home. Upon opening the bag you realize that you indeed get the larger coke, and sure enough there is an extra slice of cheese in your burger, however the fries are the same size...when in fact the server stated that you would get 35% more. You didn't get what you paid for, despite that the meal was satisfying.

Hope this helps. :dunno: Damn, is it lunch yet?


----------



## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

AF330i said:


> As I wrote above to ff, I completely agree with this train of thought !!
> 
> You are 100% correct, something should be done about this.


I agree with rumatt, it is a problem that has been around for a while. A lot of these magazines also do this with performance numbers. They take the information given to them by the manufacturer and print it in a table to make it look like they've performed tests on the car (when all they did was get to joy ride it so they could write the subjective part of the article).

For the magazines they you guys find to have the blatant errors (citing improvements over the 330 sport package components), letters asking for a correction are in order. Maybe they in turn (if they care) will send a letter to BMW showing displeasure at being given bad information. But I doubt any magazine would want to risk a good relationship with a manufacturer that lets them joy ride the cars.

Again, I think BMW needs to issue a clarification of the package.


----------



## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

greginaz1 said:


> FYI, I also printed 'The 2003 BMW 330I Performance Package' info off of the BMW website when it was on there after I ordered my car in May.
> 
> One section states:
> 
> ...


Right, and the firmer ride can come from different suspension bushings, and the quicker turn-in and quicker steering response would come from additional negative camber. The promise could have been made while keeping the standard springs/shocks.


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> Right, and the firmer ride can come from different suspension bushings, and the quicker turn-in and quicker steering response would come from additional negative camber. The promise could have been made while keeping the standard springs/shocks.


That's what it might say now, but 6 months ago it said and I quote..."Volumes have been written by independent critics, praising the roadability and handling of the BMW 3 series - and the 330i Sedan got even better in '01, when it was updated with a crisper, quicker steering system and a sport suspension calibration as standard equipment.

The Performance Package calibration, developed by BMW M, is even sportier. It incorporates Firmer springs, by approximately 6% at the front and 8% at the rear. Firmer shock absorbers overall, specifically Front-50% firmer in jounce, 35% in rebound; Rear-20% firmer in jounce, but 8% softer in rebound. Larger-diameter anti-roll (stabilzer) bars. 23.5 mm at the front, vs. the standard 23.0; 18.5 mm at the rear, vs 18.0.

More rigid forward bushings fpr tje arc-shaped lower arms of the front suspension. The hydrolic cushions at the rear of these lower arms are retained.

Lower ride height, by 15mm (0.6in).

Shorter auxiliary springs, the polyurethane components that limit spring travel. These are 15mm (0.6in) shorter at the front and rear, corresponding to the reduction in ride height."

If it wasn't different than the standard sport suspension, then what the hell did they mean by all that crap!? They are not comparing, in my opinion to the non sport 2000 model 330i that did not have the standard sport suspension...read the first 2 paragraphs again!

WTF?


----------



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Plaz said:


> That's consistent with new control arms and some additional negative camber. :dunno:


Agreed, which is why I posted it. IMHO any lawsuit is a waste of time. For me I have no interest in the Alcantara bits, 18 in wheels, and the extra 2700 clams over the SP. Since you can now order the sport seats separate, and I have a set of non-staggared summer wheels, I'd even consider not getting the SP.


----------



## Tanin (Dec 21, 2001)

Hugh, I'm on the same page as you. Do I enjoy my car? YES! To be honest, I would order the same car again today. However, I did expect a physically different suspension (sways, shocks, springs) than my previous 330i SP. Was that expectation a variable in my decision? YES!

Personally, I would like to have BMWNA clarify and address this issue. 

BMWNA showed loyalty to me when they retrofitted the steering on my ’01 330i SP. I returned the loyalty when I ordered my next 330i "specifically targeted" toward me (BMW Enthusiast, BMWCCA Member). I held up my end of the bargain and purchased the Performance Package, it would be nice to have BMWNA hold up theirs.


----------



## EZ (Feb 27, 2003)

I agree with Hugh, Tannin and others on that BMW should address the issue.


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

HEY BMW...WTF! uch: 

Do you think they heard? :eeps:


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

ff said:


> What other goodies? A different colored headliner (same cost)? The 325's shadowline trim (less expensive)? Fuzzy shift lever boot (probably less expensive)? Fuzzy steering wheel (maybe a buck or two more expensive)?
> I'd gladly sell my performance-hurting 18" wheels for the $900 profit, and go back to the M68's.
> Also, resale on the ZHP will likely be worse than the 330 SP (when speaking in terms of percentages). The more options you have on the car, the more money you lose at resale time. The smartest buy in any car line will always be the least expensive model with no options.
> 
> On a side note: mine came with the same lower control arms as the standard 330i. I checked with Hack a several months ago. I would check a 2004 330i to see if all new 330's have the new control arm.


Other goodies? In every other market, BMW charges more for the anthracite headliner (about $250 more). Same for the high-gloss shadowline trim (a whopping $700), which - I promise you - is not the same as your "base model" (ho ho) 325i - which everywhere else comes with chrome trim as it tends to appear at the top of the range, not the bottom. The bodykit is not available separate to the rest of the pack, although you can buy it after the fact for around $1,100 (front valance, rear valance, lip spoiler).

Don't like it? Not to your taste? Not, to you, worth the extra? Then don't buy it. Easy.

I agree with you on the wheels though. IMHO form over function, and unlike any trim component, having a negative impact on dynamics. I also agree that the best resale will be had at the bottom of the range. It's also where BMW makes the least margin.


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> To me this is simple. There is specific BMW literature indicating that the Perf Pack had a revised suspension. Now, they could argue that it does, and so do all 330's. But that is deceptive. Deceptive enough that the press bought it. That's already VERY wrong.
> 
> In the end, even if BMWNA could argue that the sticker on the window (and this is true - check if you still have yours) says only "sports suspension," I bought my car way before any reviews, any physical evidence, or any opportunity to compare. So at the VERY least, all those who placed an order before the first perf pack arrived definitely were deceived.
> 
> The argument is not weather they lied. Because they could say that the suspension was changed, along with all other 330's. The point is that I can get those suspension improvements without paying $3900.


According to the ETK:

330i (USA national version) front shock p/ns:

31 30 6 757 043/4

If you were to somehow specify option 225 (sports suspension, deleted):

31 31 6 749 097/8

330i USA cars with M Sports II package (option 338):

31 31 2 282 097/8

Unusual listing, as this was never made available. But examples of that are littered throughout the ETK, including entire models which never make it to market. But, lo and behold, for the '02 model year and beyond, the part numbers for a 330i USA national market version with "sporty suspension" (listed as option code 226), over and above the standard sports-version 330i:

31 31 2 282 459/460.

Different to the standard, sports-suspension-tuning 330i.

Please divert all requests for class action lawsuits to /dev/null, where they belong.


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

rumatt said:


> I agree. My interest in this is not to create a lawsuit or force a refund. I'm just tired of seeing magazine articles report long lists of upgraded suspension parts when it's simply not true. This is either BMW's fault for giving them the wrong info, or the magazines' fault for reporting false facts. Either way, it should stop. Everyone must agree with that. :dunno:


Spin and misinformation must also stop. "Not true"? I just posted the p/ns for the precious bloody "ZHP" shock absorbers, and they are different to the "standard" US-market 330i which comes with "sports" suspension tuning (vs, for example, the standard suspension of a 325i). Furthermore these match exactly with the p/ns posted on various fora and in various pictures I've seen.

For reference:

330i (USA national version) front shock p/ns:

31 30 6 757 043/4

"Sporty suspension" (listed as option code 226), over and above the standard sports-version 330i:

31 31 2 282 459/460.

That "2" in the middle? See that? That broadly signifies an 'M' part number. Has done for years. Common-or-garden 330s don't get shocks with a 2 in the middle of the part number, not in Germany, the UK, France, anywhere in AsiaPac, nowhere.

Oh, the front swaybars have different p/ns, too. The "ZHP"'s is a modicum thicker than the regular item. But I guess it's much easier to piss and moan and threaten BMW NA with legal action than to maybe crawl under the car for five minutes, or blow $5 on a six-month-old ETK to have a look for yourself. :dunno:


----------



## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

KU Ned said:


> I love my car.
> 
> With that said, if a letter to BMW NA with specific references to misinformation in marketing materials and internal materials can get some relief (refund or otherwise), why not send the letter. My original post asked for the specific information about specific parts so that a letter can be formulated.
> 
> ...


If you research what Ford did for Cobra owners you'll find they found a way to make up for the false HP claims for the Cobra.


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

imola325 said:


> I posted the part number on my rear shock (33-52-2-282-461) a while ago and I have yet to see the part number on someone's regular 325 or 330 with sport package. If it's the same I will be upset but I'm not about to start accusing BMW of anything until I see the part numbers. I think people should get the facts straight before making claims of wrongdoing.


I agree.



> Has BMW released a document that said the sway bars are larger?
> 
> I just wish BMW would provide more than vague statements about improved suspension performance. I have also attached a picture of my control arm.


Yes - it's called the ETK, although it's not official. What is official is picking up the phone and calling the dealer and saying "''Scuse me, mate, but what are the p/ns for the oily bits under the cooking 330i and the PP version?" You'll get the same information as you would from the ETK.

I hope BMW is not driven to desperately quoting jounce rates, spring rates, bushing resilience and anti-roll bar thickness ("Guaranteed 24 mm in the new money, ladies and gentlemen!!") in its adverts in order to kowtow to a few litigious types who won't be happy until they've got a factory-approved "I spent more money on this car and I'VE got a certificate saying I've got better suspension than you Na-Na-Ne-Na-Na!" badge on the back.

Actually, I don't really care. BMW UK does its own advertising, although it barely needs to. But the sheer volumes of BMWs sold in the US make the cars cheaper for the rest of us overtaxed paupers to be able to afford one, so we need the US market (though it may not sound like it if you ever read the European media). Please don't jeopardise it, for your sakes and ours.


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> That "2" in the middle? See that? That broadly signifies an 'M' part number. Has done for years.


Wow. You have a real attitude. :dunno:

I have no personal knowledge of whether the parts are the same. Some people have said they looked and they verified personally that they are the same. Others claim that the part numbers are different. I have no idea who to believe. I just want to know the truth. Why is that such a big deal?



> But I guess it's much easier to piss and moan and threaten BMW NA with legal action than to maybe crawl under the car for five minutes, or blow $5 on a six-month-old ETK to have a look for yourself. :dunno:


Umm...

a) the whole point is that people DID look under their cars and they said they saw the same parts. You're not keeping up with the conversation.  
b) I never said that I wanted legal action, so don't throw that in with a reply to my post.


----------



## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

ObD said:


> It just goes to show how shoddy journalism has become these days. It's all spin and no facts. In the old days they would have put both cars on the lift and compared them ala the SCTS clan. Of course if you need the ad revenue you walk the party line.


That's a bunch of baloney. . . . you have no idea what you're talking about if you're referring to Roundel. We had no reason to believe that BMW NA was quoting misinformation on the press release, and if you want to come and have a lift installed in my garage, that would make a great Xmas present.


----------



## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Andy_Thomas, first relax, second there seems to be a lot of conflicting information here. We are all trying to understand it. A group of people (Hack & Co.) have jacked up a zhp and recorded the part numbers on the components in question, they have looked at their ETK too and the numbers seem to be the same for the sport package 330i. If the parts are truly different as you say, then great, that's what us drivers thought in the first place. However when you have people on this board who are providing empirical evidence that flies in the face of both the marketing material and the ETK, that you have been quoting, it does lead to questions. I think after spending $40k that we deserve to know exactly what it is we have under there. It shouldn't be that difficult for someone to answer the question, it's just a matter of addressing someone at BMW AG/NA that holds the truth.

As far as the package being worth more than the sum of its parts...great, that still does not change the fact that I was sold supersized French fries.

Regardless of the mystery that surrounds the zhp, its :bigpimp:


----------



## Tanin (Dec 21, 2001)

Andy, take a deep breathe and listen to what is being said here. 

The issue of $ for the PP option is not in question. I’m questioning the statements and literature surrounding the PP option and concerned that these statements are either false or miss leading. I’m not posting with anger or aggression toward BMWNA. I’m not looking for a lawsuit! I interested in BMWNA addressing these questions in a direct and productive manner. If the sways and shocks are the same as the 330 SP (as the SCTC / Hack and Co. confirmed when "my" car was up on the lift with 5+ guys armed with laptops and access to ETK) then I expect BMWNA to tell me. However, if BMWNA claims they are different, I expect them to be.



For the record….”I love my car……. It’s my second BMW and plan on many more.”


----------



## Donnalee (Dec 13, 2003)

*One way to solve it*

Get 4 ZHP's and 4 "regular" 330i 's all manufactured in say October ( use their VIN numbers to confirm this )

Lift all of them and Check the parts by part number ( they should still be visible on cars of this young age )

The ETK does state the ZHP gets different control arms 
The ETK shows 3 Different Shocks for USA 330i 's, ZHP getting SA226

Everyone forgets about the SPRINGS which could also be different


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Seneca said:


> That's a bunch of baloney. . . . you have no idea what you're talking about if you're referring to Roundel. We had no reason to believe that BMW NA was quoting misinformation on the press release, and if you want to come and have a lift installed in my garage, that would make a great Xmas present.


This is your second post in this thread asking for a piece of equipment that you would think as a Automotive magazine writer, you should have access to.

As much as I enjoyed your article and reading Roundel every month, I am surprised and disappointed to hear that you don't have access to a lift, a radar gun, etc.

Please don't take offense but without certain testing equipment I don't see how you could possible judge if a vehicle handles or performs better . . . it sounds like you are using the 'seat of the pants' feel.


----------



## jh (Jul 15, 2003)

driving the performance package, back to back with regular 330 back in June it seemed obvious to me that the performance package was stiffer. perf pack also appears to sit lower, as advertised. it clearly has a different exhaust (louder) and higher rev limiter.

what's the source of these part numbers sited above?

one would need a precise instrument to tell if the stabilizer bars were .5 mm larger.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

jh said:


> driving the performance package, back to back with regular 330 back in June it seemed obvious to me that the performance package was stiffer. perf pack also appears to sit lower, as advertised. it clearly has a different exhaust (louder) and higher rev limiter.
> 
> what's the source of these part numbers sited above?
> 
> one would need a precise instrument to tell if the stabilizer bars were .5 mm larger.


Not sure if it sits lower . . . here is a picture from a mini-meet we had.
The white car (Carfreaks car) is a regular 03 330i and the Mystic blue car is GeoMystics ZHP.

If anything the white car looks a little lower though I doubt it is.


----------



## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

AF330i said:


> This is your second post in this thread asking for a piece of equipment that you would think as a Automotive magazine writer, you should have access to.
> 
> As much as I enjoyed your article and reading Roundel every month, I am surprised and disappointed to hear that you don't have access to a lift, a radar gun, etc.
> 
> Please don't take offense but without certain testing equipment I don't see how you could possible judge if a vehicle handles or performs better . . . it sounds like you are using the 'seat of the pants' feel.


Roundel magazine is not a big budget operation like Road & Track or Car & Driver. Almost all of our writers are BMW enthusiasts that have "regular" full time jobs on the side and do the Roundel work in their spare time. We don't make much money at it either. If you check many of the other magazines out there (BMW Car, Sports Car International, Bimmer, Forza, etc.) you will see that many of their reviews go by the "seat of the pants," which in my opinion is the most important. If you don't like it, don't read it.


----------



## Scott ZHP (Jul 17, 2003)

If anyone cares, I have an original copy of the BMW factory press kit announcing the ZHP and the Alpina Z8. It lists all the changes included in detail. This isn't something from the BMW website, it is a document issued from BMWNA. This is a folio that is typically given to journalists to assist in a writeup.

I dont have a scanner, but I can take photos on macro with my digicam...


----------



## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

andy_thomas said:


> According to the ETK:
> 
> 330i (USA national version) front shock p/ns:
> 
> ...


The '02 model year? The ZHP wasn't available until 2003. Wasn't 2002 the first year of the revised sport suspension that BMW advertised, that also included the revised-revised steering?

Hack sticking to his guns about the Ci part numbers also makes me think there's still an issue here that BMW NA needs to address.


----------



## imola325 (Jun 10, 2003)

I've been looking into the suspension differences between the regular sport and the sport II suspensions for about 2 years since I bought my 325ci with the M sport package. I've emailed BMW Canada (lame vague response), my dealer (lame vague response), I've spent time at the dealer's parts counter (they don't like giving out part numbers) and I believe the shocks, springs (very difficult to verify) and bushings are different. I've measured my ride height and it doesn't appear lower (I was told it was lower by my dealer). I've measured my swaybar and as I remember it was the same as standard. I've seen other Msport cars that appear lower (similar to convertibles).

Maybe this weekend I'll go over to my dealership's car yard and roll around under the cars for a while. The last time I was there they had several Msports, regular 325, 330's and a performance package 330i.

Tanin, do you have any photos of your car's suspension when you were looking at it? Is there a link to Hack's part number comparison?

If I buy another BMW it will be a 330ci with the performance package (6900CAN). I would not buy one without the sport II suspension (they must really have me suckered). 

I'm just trying to find and pass on accurate information. Please don't post that the suspensions are the same unless you have something showing otherwise (I would love to see it, if it's out there).

Here is a picture of my car with Sport II (I wish it was this low all the time).


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Seneca said:


> Roundel magazine is not a big budget operation like Road & Track or Car & Driver. Almost all of our writers are BMW enthusiasts that have "regular" full time jobs on the side and do the Roundel work in their spare time. We don't make much money at it either. If you check many of the other magazines out there (BMW Car, Sports Car International, Bimmer, Forza, etc.) you will see that many of their reviews go by the "seat of the pants," which in my opinion is the most important. If you don't like it, don't read it.


Didn't you read the part of my post that says 'no offense' ?

You need to understand that a lot of people read your magazine and don't realize that your not using actual test equipment on the vehicles.

Stop taking this thread so personally since it isn't a personal thing. You have enlightened us with some interesting information on how Roundel works and most of us appreciate it.

Peace !!


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

PhilH said:


> Hack sticking to his guns about the Ci part numbers also makes me think there's still an issue here that BMW NA needs to address.


What was that about Ci part numbers? :eeps:


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Okay, I did a little more digging around the ETK, and I spoke with Paddle.Shift on the phone.

It appears Andy_Thomas *was* on the right track. We dug up the PNs for 330i's again and what appears on the ETK as "sports package" shocks and springs turns out to be the same PN as M-Tech sports package shocks and springs under the 325i. We figured it out...

Basically, the ZHP is only offered in North America, and there is no such thing as sports package shocks that's different than the standard package shocks for the 330i. At least, not in the U.S...But in Canada, when you specify sports package for the 330i, you get the M-Tech II bits. So on the ETK, it lists the M-Tech II shocks and struts as "sports suspension" pieces for the 330i, when in fact, if you buy ZSP for the 330i you get the same 043/044 shocks, while for the ZHP package you get the M-Tech II shocks and struts (459/460 are the last 3 digits).

When we were comparing the PNs with PNs on the ETK, it MATCHES that of the 330i with "sports package", while not investigating further we concluded that the ZHP uses the same shocks. Well, in fact it sort of does. It matches the same shocks and struts as 330i with "sports package" in *CANADA*, not U.S.

And when we went to explore the ZHP springs vs. 330i springs, the spring color codes matches (there are no PNs printed on the springs). This part is still under contention and unless someone figures out how to decode BMW's cryptic color coding system and ETK spring table, I'm at my wits end as to how to compare the spring parts.

I hope this clears a few more things up. The ZHP package DOES in fact, uses up-rated shocks and struts compared to U.S. spec 330i. We put too much faith in the ETK and it came back to bite us in the @SS. I apologize for all this fury over *my* mistake.


----------



## missing23 (Feb 1, 2002)

The HACK said:


> Okay, I did a little more digging around the ETK, and I spoke with Paddle.Shift on the phone.
> 
> It appears Andy_Thomas *was* on the right track. We dug up the PNs for 330i's again and what appears on the ETK as "sports package" shocks and springs turns out to be the same PN as M-Tech sports package shocks and springs under the 325i. We figured it out...
> 
> ...


Dang, no free XM satellite radio upgrade for me now! Good news though!


----------



## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Been following this thread the whole time, but had nothing to contribute, really. I just like to drive the car. Its fun. I paid the 3,900. I'm not giving it back.

However, I did want to add that my HACK-o-METER just went up a couple notches. Takes a big person to own up to amending their opinions. To the man in capital letters: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

(OT) Sorry, got to go now and wire up the fuel pump in the Mini...I do so love owning an old British Car...


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

AF330i said:


> How is this solved ? ? :dunno:


ZHP-gate, baby.. If you listen carefully, you can hear the original documents being shredded.  :bigpimp:


----------



## topspin627 (Nov 15, 2003)

*ZHP-Gate*



rumatt said:


> ZHP-gate, baby.. If you listen carefully, you can hear the original documents being shredded.  :bigpimp:


I hear the book is coming soon to be followed by the film. Who will play Bangle?
On a completely different topic and question, I've seen some photos of sedans that appear to have the matching body colored molding. Is this now standard, an option or an aftermarket deal. I never understood why the coupe got the match and not the sedan. IMO it looks much nicer.


----------



## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

topspin627 said:


> I hear the book is coming soon to be followed by the film. Who will play Bangle?
> On a completely different topic and question, I've seen some photos of sedans that appear to have the matching body colored molding. Is this now standard, an option or an aftermarket deal. I never understood why the coupe got the match and not the sedan. IMO it looks much nicer.


Fair point, mine is an 03 sedan with black molding...


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

topspin627 said:


> I hear the book is coming soon to be followed by the film. Who will play Bangle?
> On a completely different topic and question, I've seen some photos of sedans that appear to have the matching body colored molding. Is this now standard, an option or an aftermarket deal. I never understood why the coupe got the match and not the sedan. IMO it looks much nicer.


It's not OEM . . . I had mine painted on my 03 330i and installed the moldings myself . . . it was very easy to do. If you want some tips on how to do it, let me know.


----------



## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

AF330i said:


> It's not OEM . . . I had mine painted on my 03 330i and installed the moldings myself . . . it was very easy to do. If you want some tips on how to do it, let me know.


AF - looks great, I wonder if its better on the blue. With Silver Grey on mine I think the Black looks ok...very nice though.


----------



## Frobozz (Oct 10, 2003)

wingspan said:


> Fair point, mine is an 03 sedan with black molding...


silver grey 04 with black moldings as well


----------



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Even if the parts are different a comparison of performance numbers between like models ... except for ZHP is required. The parts are a curiosity but not germane to the arguement that the ZHP will blow the doors off of a SP equipped car at the track.


----------



## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

ObD said:


> Even if the parts are different a comparison of performance numbers between like models ... except for ZHP is required. The parts are a curiosity but not germane to the arguement that the ZHP will blow the doors off of a SP equipped car at the track.


Plus, different part numbers doesn't necessarily mean that the parts are different.

To be honest, I'm thoroughly confused. What is the current status regarding what we know for SURE.?


----------



## Tanin (Dec 21, 2001)

ObD said:


> The parts are a curiosity but not germane to the arguement that the ZHP will blow the doors off of a SP equipped car at the track.


IMO "blow the doors off an SP equipped car" has never and should never be used. The suspension improvements don't give me +1 G on the skidpad, however I am able to carry a higher speed while maintaining the same level of confidence and stability compared to my '01 SP (with RD Sways).

As for gains in straight line performance (if any), we will see. Regardless, +/- .02 sec (my '01 330i did a best of 5.85 to 60) would be near impossible see at a stop light.


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

rumatt said:


> To be honest, I'm thoroughly confused. What is the current status regarding what we know for SURE.?


Here is what we know for SURE so far:

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our BMW and other automobile companies, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.

Clearly in this case it is better to circomlocute by embracing, rather than eschewing, obfuscation.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

philippek said:


> Here is what we know for SURE so far:
> 
> There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our BMW and other automobile companies, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.
> 
> Clearly in this case it is better to circomlocute by embracing, rather than eschewing, obfuscation.


I'm sure of one thing, noone knows, if someone really new, we would all know. :thumbup:


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

philippek said:


> There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know.


 :rofl:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ultrabithorax/18152.html


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

wingspan said:


> AF - looks great, I wonder if its better on the blue. With Silver Grey on mine I think the Black looks ok...very nice though.


thanks wingspan !!

I originally did it after I got my first set of aftermarket wheels, I thought it completed the look better . . . though with the stock wheels it looks good either way.


----------



## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

AF330i said:


> thanks wingspan !!
> 
> I originally did it after I got my first set of aftermarket wheels, I thought it completed the look better . . . though with the stock wheels it looks good either way.


You're welcome, but you know, its wierd, I look at the pictures of your car in blue and think, wow, that looks really great, just like it ought to look. Then I go out and look at mine and think, wow, that looks really great, just like it ought to look :dunno: . Either way, I guess it underscores the classic elegance of the E46 design. (can't tell I really like it eh?  )

ws


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

rumatt said:


> Plus, different part numbers doesn't necessarily mean that the parts are different.


Oh come on.

The ride quality of the M Sport II chassis is just a little firmer than the regular (sport, for 330i) chassis. the parts are different. You would have to have manure in your head not to work out that the former is caused - at least in part - by the latter.

The only way to test would be to take brand new shocks from a 330i PP and a 330i and test them. But that would be really rather pathetic, desperately testing BMW's parts to somehow prove that they'd shafted you and giving you the opportunity to roast them in court. Jesus. Why not do it with the engine? Or the bushings? Or the anti-roll bars?

Hey, IT'S A CONSPIRACY!


----------



## blackhawk77 (Mar 16, 2003)

philippek said:


> Here is what we know for SURE so far:
> 
> There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our BMW and other automobile companies, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.


-

I think I know what you mean. But I don't know if I really know.

http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/footinmouth.html

-


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

andy_thomas said:


> Oh come on.
> 
> You would have to have manure in your head !


LMAO :rofl::rofl: I never heard that expression before but it is funny as hell !!!


----------



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

andy_thomas said:


> Oh come on.
> 
> The ride quality of the M Sport II chassis is just a little firmer than the regular (sport, for 330i) chassis. the parts are different. You would have to have manure in your head not to work out that the former is caused - at least in part - by the latter.
> 
> ...


A change in feel does not necessarily equate to performance. Let the chips fall where they may in a head to head comparison and no one will have to defend anything. It's just when people start with hyperbole, the manure is in their head.


----------



## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

ff said:


> The 325's shadowline trim (less expensive)? .


the 325 sedan's trims are rubber/plastic i believe whereas the shadowline is alu alloy anodized/painted black.


----------



## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

*Does this mean...*

From what Hack said, does this mean I can get an M Sport suspension 325i in Canada but not here! If so, why not? Why would our north-of-the-border comrades get better packages than the largest BMW market in the world?


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

BloodRedHog said:


> From what Hack said, does this mean I can get an M Sport suspension 325i in Canada but not here! If so, why not? Why would our north-of-the-border comrades get better packages than the largest BMW market in the world?


This has been done to death several times, but to summarise its *because* the US market is the largest in the world that you don't get the choice. By making hundreds of thousands of cars which are restricted in spec, BMW AG can sell cars in the US market at a fraction of the price they cost elsewhere. How many 330is do you think BMWNA would sell if they were forced to sell at, say, Australian prices (currently around US$70,000)?

AIUI the lack of choice is also related to US consumer laws. If you can legally expect the return of an ostensibly non-refundable deposit every time, BMW will never risk taking a bath - hundreds of thousands of baths - on a car they can't then sell to someone else.


----------



## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

ff said:


> Your additions make the assumtion that a standard 330 doesn't include any of these items. However, the standard 330 does include an intake, an exhaust system, a bumper, and a steering wheel.
> You can't calculate the value of options based on what it would cost you to buy all new parts aftermarket. Given that thought process, the upgrade $$ from a 325i to a 330i should be equal to buying a 2nd brand new engine, a 2nd set of wheels and tires, a 2nd set of power seats, a 2nd transmision, a 2nd set of bumpers, a 2nd... well, you get the idea.
> 
> I love my car (I loved my previous 330 just as much), but I hate being sold something that isn't what was advertised. This is a matter of principle.


Didn't AF330i forget LABOR?


----------



## imola325 (Jun 10, 2003)

You can no longer get the M-sport package option on a 325 in Canada. It's only an option on 330's. And now you can get 330's in the US with the performance package.


----------



## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> AIUI the lack of choice is also related to US consumer laws. If you can legally expect the return of an ostensibly non-refundable deposit every time, BMW will never risk taking a bath - hundreds of thousands of baths - on a car they can't then sell to someone else.


Yet another example of the US legal system restricting consumer choice.


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> Yet another example of the US legal system restricting consumer choice.


Apart from the fact that it seems to prevent fun stuff coming your way, it's also interventionist. (Ha, a Brit lecturing a US-based board on interventionism. Oops ) Why should the state, or indeed the State, come between you and a private transaction with a dealer involving a truly non-refundable deposit? If you want a particular specification that badly, and are prepared to put your money where your mouth is (sacrificing it if you decide later that you really don't want it), shouldn't that be the business of just you and the dealer?


----------



## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

*What is the history on this?*

What is the history on this? Do dealers here feel they must return a "non-refundable" deposit to a buyer who changed their mind?



andy_thomas said:


> Apart from the fact that it seems to prevent fun stuff coming your way, it's also interventionist. (Ha, a Brit lecturing a US-based board on interventionism. Oops ) Why should the state, or indeed the State, come between you and a private transaction with a dealer involving a truly non-refundable deposit? If you want a particular specification that badly, and are prepared to put your money where your mouth is (sacrificing it if you decide later that you really don't want it), shouldn't that be the business of just you and the dealer?


----------



## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> Apart from the fact that it seems to prevent fun stuff coming your way, it's also interventionist. (Ha, a Brit lecturing a US-based board on interventionism. Oops ) Why should the state, or indeed the State, come between you and a private transaction with a dealer involving a truly non-refundable deposit? If you want a particular specification that badly, and are prepared to put your money where your mouth is (sacrificing it if you decide later that you really don't want it), shouldn't that be the business of just you and the dealer?


It's because the US is always passing laws to protect really dumb people from themselves, hurting everyone else in the process. We always make our laws for the lowest common denominator.

Americans think they live in the world's most free society, but in fact the US is one of the most restrictive countries in the world.

Can't driver over 65 mph
Can't play on a public jungle gym or long slide
Can't drive on a racetrack with insurance
Can't order steaming hot coffee
Can't order Super size fries cause some fat guy might get fatter
Can't buy a small car cause it's not safe from the SUVs
Can't buy any of the hundreds of British sports cars
Can't smoke
Can't have oral sex in your own home (in some states)
(This is my favorite)
Can't hurt a criminal who's trying to steal your car, or break into your house.

But you can buy an M-60 machine gun or a silenced sniper rifle, whoohoo for the USA!


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

BloodRedHog said:


> What is the history on this? Do dealers here feel they must return a "non-refundable" deposit to a buyer who changed their mind?


There is plenty in the archives about this, mainly relating to the limited range of options and non-availability of BMW Individual in the US. The picture is not very clear to me, but even if a customer makes a supposedly non-refundable deposit to buy a car with unusual spec, that deposit is refundable by law. (What's not clear to me is exactly *why*, or whether that's a by-state law, or applicable across the country.)

So even if the dealer says "well, you gave me a non-refundable deposit, you don't want the car, and now I've got a snot-coloured 325iT manual without premium *or* sport pack, but with bright green leather and red wooden trim which I haven't a hope in selling to someone else", the buyer can still demand the return of his non-refundable deposit.

Answer: the dealer takes a bath. Limiting the options and colours available means that if the car is turned down after delivery, the dealer might be able to shift it without losing money. Importantly, it also enables the importer to strike a better deal with the factory, and obtain cars at a cost which makes them saleable in the US market.


----------



## Scott ZHP (Jul 17, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> There is plenty in the archives about this, mainly relating to the limited range of options and non-availability of BMW Individual in the US. The picture is not very clear to me, but even if a customer makes a supposedly non-refundable deposit to buy a car with unusual spec, that deposit is refundable by law. (What's not clear to me is exactly *why*, or whether that's a by-state law, or applicable across the country.)


Agreed.

I just read (latest copy of Bimmer, IIRC) that BMW is easing up on this somewhat and allowing dealers to order some of the package options on a piecemeal basis.

I believe the article mentions that the Individual options are still available only at the individual dealer's discretion.


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Scott ZHP said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I just read (latest copy of Bimmer, IIRC) that BMW is easing up on this somewhat and allowing dealers to order some of the package options on a piecemeal basis.
> 
> I believe the article mentions that the Individual options are still available only at the individual dealer's discretion.


Praise be. You know what this means? No more sets of Myrtle wood on eBay .


----------



## ClubSpec330i (Oct 22, 2003)

Ok guy let's try this.

I will try to take measurement of the suspension of both '03 330i SP and '03 330i ZHP on Sunday. To say the least, 330i SP FEELS like it has more torque down low but I still think 330i ZHP is faster. 330i SP is my wife's car and 330i ZHP is my car. I have driven both on AutoX and on track, stock vs. stock, my car was faster on both venues.

Is there anything in particular you want me to look for on both cars? 

I will test and video tape the following parameters and configuration:
Freeway approach, on-ramp, and off-ramp 135º turn

- 330i SP with stock M68 wheel
- 330i ZHP with stock M135 wheel
- 330i ZHP with M68 wheel
- 325CI with 17" '04 SP wheel (if available)
- S2000 with stock 16" SO-3 tire (if time permits - I want to see if my '02 S2000 is faster than my '03 ZHP)

Of course, let's assume that my wife won't want to go out of town on Saturday for our aniversary, I should be able to do the above testing on Sunday just fine.


----------



## Tanin (Dec 21, 2001)

Dawg90 said:


> Can't have oral sex in your own home (in some states)


My wife tells me that regardless of which state we are in 

:rofl:


----------



## eksath (Apr 4, 2003)

ff said:


> I was hoping for M3 handling, at a 330i price. I didn't get what I was hoping for.


This statement is very telling....As mentioned before quite well. THere is no freaking way you are going to get a M3 out of a 330i with minor changes...

Perhaps the pissed of ZHP owners could start a Class action lawsuit (like teh guy with FM reception) and then get BMW NA to take their 330i with performance package in and get M3 for free.... 

just a joke...but i think you get the sarcasm...enjoy the car man...not the part numbers...do you aurocross it?...

Peace


----------

