# My ZHP is slow!



## Nefilim (May 17, 2004)

First of all let me say I'm not trying to stir up controversy or anything here. Secondly, the car has about 2000 mi on it now, so while it's still pretty new it's definitely been driven a bit and I don't expect there to be any huge increases in performance as it breaks in further. I broke it in very proggressively and never rev WOT to 6k rpm until about 1500mi. 

I just think the car feels rather sluggish, especially off the line. The dealer gave me a 325iT step loaner while I waited on delivery of my ZHP. That thing flew off the line keeping it in 1st with the tiptronic. Obviously it feels a little more responsive as it winds up the torque convertor first but even so, really flew to red line. My ZHP by comparison feels really lazy, never mind the 50bhp increase! I must say it feels very similiar to what my A4 3.0 felt. The Audi weighed in at 3700lbs and with permanent quattro should be lagging behind significantly. However, the Audi had a proper close ratio 6spd gearbox, while I feel the ZHP has more of 5 + 1 gearbox, 6 just being an overdrive and virtually useless to me. I wish they made all the gears a bit shorter. Who cares about reaching 60 in 2nd. Cruising at 3800rpm at 80mph doesn't bother me, especially with an inline 6. In all objectivity I must confess that the ZHP rear wheels are quite a bit bigger and probably heavier, 255/35/18 vs 235/40/17
Anyways, breaking the rear wheels loose in the ZHP does not appear possible, well not in any authoritive way (traction control off of course), without burning the clutch, which I haven't tried/don't do. 

So to summarize the ZHP feels like it pulls pretty meagerly but it does seem like the speedo climbs a (very little) bit faster than the Audi. I would contribute some of this to the longer gear ratios and bigger rear wheels but even so I wonder... 

How do you other ZHP owners feel? How does it compare with your previous rides?


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## Nefilim (May 17, 2004)

Disclaimer: If it's not obvious, this is all in my opinion and very subjective!! If there are any bay area ZHP owners that I can take for a drive or can take me for a drive in their cars it would be great to get a better feel for things.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Hey dude :hi: and welcome to the fest.

Seems like this has been a topic discussed before etc :dunno: but anyway: My car is plenty fast enough. Breaking the wheels is something I've only done once, when making a U-turn I kind of chirped the tyres just a bit because there was some oncoming traffic.

I've had to accelerate fast only a few times (mostly I like to try and be as smooth as possible and I enjoy driving the car) but both times seeing the tach swing round to the redline was quite, ah, exhilarating.

4 doors and faster than a Boxster! :thumbup:

EDIT: Sorry! but to answer your question my previous car was a '99 C class sedan, so there's no real way to compare them...


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

Find some 93 octane fuel. I can only buy 92 here in MN, but as soon as I venture to most any other state, I can buy 93, and the car runs so much better, quicker.


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

ff said:


> Find some 93 octane fuel. I can only buy 92 here in MN, but as soon as I venture to most any other state, I can buy 93, and the car runs so much better, quicker.


ff, I thought the engine was tuned for 91 octane.


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## Nefilim (May 17, 2004)

BloodRedHog said:


> ff, I thought the engine was tuned for 91 octane.


No. 91 is the minimum. Knock sensors retard and advance the ignition to cope with different octane levels. My Audi was the same. It ran significantly smoother and a little faster with race gas (100 octane).


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## Nefilim (May 17, 2004)

wingspan said:


> Hey dude :hi: and welcome to the fest.
> 
> Seems like this has been a topic discussed before etc :dunno: but anyway: My car is plenty fast enough. Breaking the wheels is something I've only done once, when making a U-turn I kind of chirped the tyres just a bit because there was some oncoming traffic.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the welcome  Yea, that's about the same I got on a few turn and accelerate maneuvers, a few chirps :tsk: Sorry, I wasn't aware this topic has been discussed before, I'll search around a bit 

Nice Mini!!


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## flashinthepan (Jul 25, 2003)

> My ZHP is slow!


Sorry to hear that


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

Welcome to the forum!

First, I know one person on this forum who complained of the same thing, but that was due to a physical problem with their ZHP's engine (I forget who it was and what the problem was).

Second, your car won't completely open up until around 10k miles. 2k is definitely not enough to evaluate your car yet, although if the sluggishness feels really bad, it could be due to some malfunction or problem with your engine.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

TLudwig said:


> Second, your car won't completely open up until around 10k miles. 2k is definitely not enough to evaluate your car yet, although if the sluggishness feels really bad, it could be due to some malfunction or problem with your engine.


 :stupid:


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Need shorter gear, aye  Try a 3.38 diff :bigpimp: Works for me.....


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## Hou330izhp (May 25, 2004)

Nefilim said:


> How do you other ZHP owners feel? How does it compare with your previous rides?


I had a loaner 325i while the dealer fixed a problem with my radio; it didn't come close to the power and performance of my ZHP.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

First of all, comparing the Step loaner to your 6-speed is not a valid comparison....a torque-converter will always give greater power multiplication than a manual, unless a tire-spinning, dump the clutch-style start is employed (which I assure you, *IS* entirely possible). BMW engines are extremely tight from the factory, and the fact that they`re delivered with synthetic oil retards the break-in procedure considerably. If you want to do it right, dump the factory oil at 1000 miles (this will flush out any small pieces of loose casting material, etc. that may have been hidden in the block) Run the next 3000 miles with a good premium detergent-type oil (Castrol GTX,etc.) This will allow the hard-faced rings to "scuff-in", and seat properly....synthetic is too "slippery". After this, switch back to Mobil 1, and you will have a properly broken-in engine that runs like a champ. Unless this procedure is followed, your engine won`t be "broken-in" until around 10,000 miles. As was stated, one of the most effective ways to improve acceleration is to switch to a higher (numerically) rear-end ratio.

Regards,
Bob


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## Ashe too (Dec 22, 2001)

Mine isn't slow at all. My previous cars were a 1968 Buick Wildcat with a 430 CID V8, a 1972 Olds Cutlas with a 350 CID V8, a 1969 Pontiac GTO with the 400 HO engine, 1978, 1983, '84 and '86 Honda Civics, a 1988 Honda CRX Si, a 1992 Honda Accord LX, a 1997 Honda Prelude, a '99 323i w/ sport pkg and an '02 325i w/ sport and premium pkgs - both with 5 speed manuals. My 330i w/ the perf pkg is much quicker and faster than any of them ever hoped to be. 

In fact, the ease with which this car goes about its business makes it seem deceptively fast. 

But...I have to push this car to really hunker down. You can't be afraid to floor it or run it to the redline. Otherwise, you're just not getting the juice. I redline the car a few times a day. Not always at a full throttle tear but neverhtheless. I've even gotten a launch that didn't just spin the tires, but smoked them. There's just no comparison b/t a 330 and a 325 - and that's not an insult to the 325, just a compliment to the 330. 

I say you're just not pushing it hard enough.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Like Ashe said the car is plenty quick just go higher into the rpms. I run near the redline in first and second all the time.


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## LDV330i (May 24, 2003)

I am sorry to hear that you feel that your car feels slow and does not meet your expectations. The people that ride with me complain it is too fast (or maybe it is me who drive too fast). :bigpimp: I heard that same complaint again today from my two co-workers that rode with me to lunch.


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

Fast Bob said:


> First of all, comparing the Step loaner to your 6-speed is not a valid comparison....a torque-converter will always give greater power multiplication than a manual, unless a tire-spinning, dump the clutch-style start is employed (which I assure you, *IS* entirely possible). BMW engines are extremely tight from the factory, and the fact that they`re delivered with synthetic oil retards the break-in procedure considerably. If you want to do it right, dump the factory oil at 1000 miles (this will flush out any small pieces of loose casting material, etc. that may have been hidden in the block) Run the next 3000 miles with a good premium detergent-type oil (Castrol GTX,etc.) This will allow the hard-faced rings to "scuff-in", and seat properly....synthetic is too "slippery". After this, switch back to Mobil 1, and you will have a properly broken-in engine that runs like a champ. Unless this procedure is followed, your engine won`t be "broken-in" until around 10,000 miles. As was stated, one of the most effective ways to improve acceleration is to switch to a higher (numerically) rear-end ratio.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob


Fast Bob-

I'm assuming you did this break in approach with your car, and I agree 100% with it. I'm just wondering whether you ran into any problems from your dealer for changing it prior to the scheduled first change.

I ask because my gf recently bought a lexus and I told her to get the oil changed after the first 800 miles, but I didn't have the time to do it myself, so I told her just to take it into the dealership. Her service advisor told her that she shouldn't do it because lexus uses an oil specially formulated for breakin and that she shouldn't change it until the recommended time. Of course she assumes he knows more about cars (I'm sure he does for most things, but not on this), so she didn't do it.


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## alkao (Jan 3, 2004)

Fast Bob said:


> First of all, comparing the Step loaner to your 6-speed is not a valid comparison....a torque-converter will always give greater power multiplication than a manual, unless a tire-spinning, dump the clutch-style start is employed (which I assure you, *IS* entirely possible). BMW engines are extremely tight from the factory, and the fact that they`re delivered with synthetic oil retards the break-in procedure considerably. If you want to do it right, dump the factory oil at 1000 miles (this will flush out any small pieces of loose casting material, etc. that may have been hidden in the block) Run the next 3000 miles with a good premium detergent-type oil (Castrol GTX,etc.) This will allow the hard-faced rings to "scuff-in", and seat properly....synthetic is too "slippery". After this, switch back to Mobil 1, and you will have a properly broken-in engine that runs like a champ. Unless this procedure is followed, your engine won`t be "broken-in" until around 10,000 miles. As was stated, one of the most effective ways to improve acceleration is to switch to a higher (numerically) rear-end ratio.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob


To back up Bob's statement about the torque. Check out http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter1.htm or more specifically http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter3.htm about the torque multiplication.

About the oil&#8230; I was thinking about that too ever since I was told by one of the instructors&#8230; years ago&#8230; at Skip Barber Driving School (back when they used BMWs) that on their race cars they would break them in with regular motor oil because synthetic took way too long. But&#8230; I guess I'm a little too chicken to do it and 10,000 miles is coming up pretty quickly anyway. Already past 3000 and it has only been about 2 months.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Ashe too said:


> But...I have to push this car to really hunker down. You can't be afraid to floor it or run it to the redline. Otherwise, you're just not getting the juice. I redline the car a few times a day. Not always at a full throttle tear but neverhtheless. I've even gotten a launch that didn't just spin the tires, but smoked them. There's just no comparison b/t a 330 and a 325 - and that's not an insult to the 325, just a compliment to the 330.
> 
> I say you're just not pushing it hard enough.


I'd agree. While familiarity with the ZHP has made me view it as slow, over 4k rpm my car pulls like a damn rocket. Below that...well I get passed by civics.

Keep the revs high and the car's fun though.


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## JAWJr (May 4, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> I'd agree. While familiarity with the ZHP has made me view it as slow, over 4k rpm my car pulls like a damn rocket. Below that...well I get passed by civics.
> 
> Keep the revs high and the car's fun though.


Does anyone think this differs significantly from a regular 330 manual? Referring to a comparison throughout the rev range of course. Meaning could a regular 330 be faster than a zhp up until the zhp gets past that odd dump in power between 4 and 5K?


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

Ashe too said:


> As for the service guy telling you that they use a special oil for break in...maybe they do...but I don't believe it. I believe about 10% of what I hear most employees of a car dealer say (and they are usually right when talking about how much they charge for something or how little they will discount your initial purchase). I changed mine at 1200, 7500 and I will let the dealer do it at approx. 15,000. Then I will change it once about half-way between each dealer visit.


After walking out of dealerships of three different manufacturers while searching for my new car because the salespeople knew less than I did about their own cars, believe me when I say I don't ever trust anything unsubstantiated coming out of a dealer employee's mouth. I explained this to the gf, but she wanted to "do it by the book."

Just as an example, as I was walking with an Acura sales person out to the car to take a test drive of the new TL, I complained to him that it was not RWD. He actually told me and argued with me that FWD made for better vehicle handling. After 2 minutes of him trying to convince me, I told him to find me a new sales person or I was finding a new dealership. I'm sure people here have even better stories than that.

Thanks for the break in advice, Fast Bob. To make sure I understand you, there aren't going to be any negative repercussions from switching from a synthetic oil, to a conventional oil, back to a synthetic? Probably a stupid question, but I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the finer (or even more obvious) points of oil.


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## dusterbuster (Jan 29, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> And there's the ole double vanos too.
> 
> Helping a friend look for cars last week and on a test drive of a TSX the salesperson announced, "Honda/Acura had the first VTEC cars. Do you know the first one?"
> 
> ...


the salesman was absolutely wrong. i purchased a '94 accord ex which had a vtec engine. i remember reading about the virtues of the vtec "technology" in the accord brochure before buying the car. don't know where they came up with the 95 integra.


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> And there's the ole double vanos too.
> 
> Helping a friend look for cars last week and on a test drive of a TSX the salesperson announced, "Honda/Acura had the first VTEC cars. Do you know the first one?"
> 
> ...


You were close, but it was actually the *1990* Acura NSX that got the first VTEC engine here in the US. The VTEC made its first debut in Japan with the 1989 Honda Integra. Either way, that salesperson is a moron.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

TLudwig said:


> You were close, but it was actually the *1990* Acura NSX that got the first VTEC engine here in the US. The VTEC made its first debut in Japan with the 1989 Honda Integra. Either way, that salesperson is a moron.


Sorry, for some reason I thought the US NSX was first released as a 91. My bad.


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Sorry, for some reason I thought the US NSX was first released as a 91. My bad.


didn't mean to nitpick, but i'm anal like that. :eeps: :tsk:


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

330soon2b said:


> I The bimmer, to me, feels like it is just getting warmed up at 60. At 80 it is stilling pulling hard in any gear (haven't gone over 80 yet only 500 miles).


Oh yes, this happened to me as well. I was driving to Cape Canaveral on the beeline, just motoring along at the limit+ (70+). I had to overtake this Minivan who was hogging the left lane. Coming up fast behind was a moron in a Grand Prix. So anyway this guy tucks up under my bumper (I'm behind the minivan but not tailgating.) Finally the minivan switches to the right, and I'm like, right, I am outta here.

I downshifted to fifth, floored it, then passed the minivan and pulled right to see what the GP would do.

Never saw him again.

I looked down at the speedo and saw an unusually large number on the MPH gauge (for me ). I checked the tach and it was well north of 4K if I recall correctly...I remember thinking, holy cow, this thing is deceptively fast...


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

swchang said:


> Salesmen are never right.
> 
> http://applications.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/43849/article.html mentions Integra GS-R and NSX. I'd be inclined to believe you.


1989 NS-X was the first. (1989 year, as a 1990 model)


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

I've even seen people complain around here that their M3s felt slow. I guess it's a matter of individual perception. Some people I've heard saying that VW's 1.8T engine (especially in Golf application) feels much faster than 330i. Now that is so insane. BMW inline sixes are deceptively fast because they are more linear in their power delivery. M3 SMG actually "felt" slower to me because shifting was less obvious than in a manual and I'm sure I was faster in it because of SMG. 330s are faster than anyone would need in any street application. 
Making tires spin or breaking traction - no problem - if you are of course so inclined.

Now, another issue is people constantly complaining about lack of lower torque and need to rev it high. Yeah, I rev it high all the time and it's great but 330i (much more so than 325i) has plenty of low end torque (say between 2 and 3.5K) if you are in the right gear. During ED I kept my cars revs down and had no problems whatsover accelerating, passing etc. Just use this right hand! It's fun  
If I had to complain about the engine I would much rather say that it runs out of breath MUCH faster than M3. M3s are absolutely insane when it comes to high revving ability. There is more power than that you could possibly imagine. On the other hand it makes it maybe a little less fun to drive (paradoxically so) especially in the US. You can much more easily rev 330i or 325i on a daily basis and not end up in jail.
As for comparisons with E36 M3 when it comes to power delivery. I've test driven couple M3/4 s when shopping for my car and they do have better low end torque and are more free revving than 330i ZHP (in my opinion of the things I like about ZHP is that it feels more happy in reaching and coming off of revs than a regular 330i - again it's pretty subtle) but definitely not by much. You notice the difference but it is NOT night and day. On the other hand they improve in so many other area over E36 - mainly chassis rigidity.


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## whitewagon (Mar 8, 2004)

Nefilim said:


> How do you other ZHP owners feel? How does it compare with your previous rides?


I live in the Bay Area, you can drive my 325i 5 speed to compare it to yours if you'd like. Of course, I'd get to drive yours too. :angel:


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

TLudwig said:


> After walking out of dealerships of three different manufacturers while searching for my new car because the salespeople knew less than I did about their own cars, believe me when I say I don't ever trust anything unsubstantiated coming out of a dealer employee's mouth. I explained this to the gf, but she wanted to "do it by the book."
> 
> Just as an example, as I was walking with an Acura sales person out to the car to take a test drive of the new TL, I complained to him that it was not RWD. He actually told me and argued with me that FWD made for better vehicle handling. After 2 minutes of him trying to convince me, I told him to find me a new sales person or I was finding a new dealership. I'm sure people here have even better stories than that.
> 
> Thanks for the break in advice, Fast Bob. To make sure I understand you, there aren't going to be any negative repercussions from switching from a synthetic oil, to a conventional oil, back to a synthetic? Probably a stupid question, but I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the finer (or even more obvious) points of oil.


Nope, no negative repercussions at all, just an engine that runs better because it`s properly broken-in.
I can`t agree with the "Drive it like you stole it" theory for the following reason: Piston rings are hard-faced (in the interest of longevity), harder than the cylinder walls....In a perfect world, they would wear-in at the same rate (Never happen!) With synthetic oil, if you beat the piss out of it from Day One,the rings will NEVER seat,just wearing the cylinder walls, and eventually,you will have a motor with low compression that burns oil prematurely. Now, if you`re only gonna keep the car for 3 years, it won`t have much effect on you, but it`ll make things tough for the poor guy who owns tht car 5 or 6 years down the road. (How many of you are driving cars over 5 years old? Do you *really* want to buy a car from this guy???)

Regards,
Bob


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Wallenrod said:


> I've even seen people complain around here that their M3s felt slow. I guess it's a matter of individual perception. Some people I've heard saying that VW's 1.8T engine (especially in Golf application) feels much faster than 330i. Now that is so insane. BMW inline sixes are deceptively fast because they are more linear in their power delivery. M3 SMG actually "felt" slower to me because shifting was less obvious than in a manual and I'm sure I was faster in it because of SMG. 330s are faster than anyone would need in any street application.


To each his own. There's nothing deceptive about a car that moves like a snail for 60% of the rev range and then explodes as if shot from a cannon.



> Now, another issue is people constantly complaining about lack of lower torque and need to rev it high. Yeah, I rev it high all the time and it's great but 330i (much more so than 325i) has plenty of low end torque (say between 2 and 3.5K) if you are in the right gear.


From first gear my 330i ZHP is slow. If I take off at half throttle and release the clutch in an easy fashion I have civics, minivans, old K-cars riding my bumper. Shift at 3k-4k and cars are passing me. The car couldn't get out of its own way until after 4k rpm. It's a sad fact I've lived with since day one.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

I do agree with you on one thing: to each their own. I am positive that E34 M5, for instance, would feel absolutely terrible to you. 330i, by comparison, feels MUCH faster down low (but gives up the top end). BTW, I think the max torque is achived at what 3.5K or so? It is really geared for being responsive at low speeds. Yes, for sure the car feels so good when you go high in the rev range but I really don't feel it lacking dow low. By the same measure you could say that Carrera feels very underpowered (not to even mention the lowly Boxster). You know turbocharged Saabs FEEL a lot faster than 330i but they are not. That's just the boost kicking in at around 2K and staying for another 2 - after that, there's big nothing. Butt is not always the best measure. But what do I know. I knew I had to have a BMW when I drove my friend's 323i. I felt this was the best sedan I've ever driven in my life. I still remember this test drive. In some way it felt more fun than my 330i, it really HAD to be shifted at red line each time and it felt so great.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

*Try this..*

Try putting some Ligh weight Comp SSr Wheels on it with some Michelins,Take out spare tire in the rear, Adding a Lighweight Flywheel with Better Clutch on it and if money is not an issue get an ASA Supercharger on it as well. Thing will fly! Rear end will break on you most of the time. Will be the funnest car to drive for you..


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

I do think it will feel faster after a few miles are put on it.

I test drove a ZHP in Dallas that had a few WOT runs put on it and that car was loose (in a good way) and fast as %$#&. Mine right now does not "feel" as fast. But that day is coming. :thumbup:


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## MysticBlue (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm at 9100 miles and it's still getting better. I would have thought that by now it would start feeling slower as I got used to it and the novelty of it wore off, but it's exactly the opposite. It is still loosening up and getting faster, I am getting better at driving it, and my appreciation for driving it is increasing.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

I swear my 330i is pulling harder than ever with nearly 32000 miles on it.


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## dynosor (Jul 15, 2003)

*Vanos system may be stuck in high RPM mode*

Your car's vanos system may be stuck in high RPM mode. Have the dealer check it out.

My 330i "comes on the cam" at 2500 RPM, and agian lightly just over 4000 RPM.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Plaz said:


> I swear my 330i is pulling harder than ever with nearly 32000 miles on it.


I was just thinking as I passed 30k yesterday, the same is true :thumbup: So how much faster will my car feel if I were to get wheels that are ~ 8.5 lbs lighter each :dunno:  :angel:


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Dr. Phil said:


> I was just thinking as I passed 30k yesterday, the same is true :thumbup: So how much faster will my car feel if I were to get wheels that are ~ 8.5 lbs lighter each :dunno:  :angel:


 I don't know, but if you don't want to find out, I do. :angel:


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

The size of the wheel becomes a factor here....the farther away from the hub center you get, the less advantage is realized from a lighter wheel,i.e., a 20-lb 19" wheel, a 24-lb. 18" wheel, and a 28 lb. 17" wheel probably probably present about the same inertial resistance from a standing start. Advantage, if any, would be most noticeable in the 0-60 mph range.
Of course, being in the proper gear and whacking the clutch to get the RPMs up quickly also helps 

Regards,
Bob


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Roadhawk said:


> part had to do with having to restrict revs based on dealer request (new car - not broken in).


Guess they didn't want to sell all that badly. Reminds me of an infiniti dealer i visited before buying my 3. I told the joker I was comparing the car to the 330i and I was very concerned that the G wouldn't offer the kind of sublime handling of the bimmer. What was the following test drive? A surface street to the freeway, off the freeway, back on, off and back to the dealer. When asked about handling the salesguy said - no BS - "turn sharp at the light." When I complained he said they sold 100 cars a month to people on that route and all the magazines praise the G's handling. I got his manager and told off both of them. 



> And if you think the ZHP experinces heat related performance drop offs - let me tell you - the S4 - with its twin Turbos almost seems like a different car when the temp is above 90...as compared to at the cooler temps...cooler it just feels like a beast (which it is)...but hot....it feels quick certainly - but so much flatter. I don't knwo how much I lose - but it is
> certainly significant...


Yeah I owned a 1.8T (certainly not in the 2.7T's league) but on cool, crisp nights that engine was so lively. And in the mountains it was a blast.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

BloodRedHog said:


> blueguydotcom said:
> 
> 
> > ...you start to think maybe there is someone sexier and more fun than Jessica Alba...
> ...


I supported your move for TiAg, but you're on your own here.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

FenPhen said:


> I supported your move for TiAg, but you're on your own here.


LOL. Yeah Garner is a little old and used up. Not to say I'm not a little old too but Alba's like 23. She's got at least 10-15 years before everything goes to hell.


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## steve austin (Jun 25, 2004)

*Americans buy horsepower , but drive torque.*

Americans buy horsepower , but drive torque.
Stock I6's are long-legged engines, at home on bahns, long sweepers and grades. Classic display of good roll-on accelaration with strong 3rd & 4th gear acceleration but somewhat weak off-the-line or when caught @ the very low end.
When stock, off-the-line I-6's pay the penalty of weight and moving mass against performance I-4 bangers and can not generate the low grunt of high-displacement 8's.
If you bought a 46 for drag, you bought the wrong car.
Otherwise, there is little else at it's overall level.


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