# Snows and snow



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I read all this stuff on here about how snow tires + RWD = super awesome handling in the snow. My first experience with snow tires in the white stuff was coming back from the Detroit auto show. Going at highway speeds on the (duh) highway, they performed quite well. My second experience was a couple days ago when we got maybe an inch in Baltimore. Driving around town, I noticed some wheel slip, but nothing big. My third and most recent experience was today. I don't have any real complaints, but a few observations.

For background purposes, here in Baltimore we're forecast to get about 6-10 inches of snow. When I went out to Blockbuster's, visibility was less than 1/4 mile, streets were mostly unplowed, and there was about 1-2" of snow on the roads. First I tried to go up a hill near my apartment. Ascent was okay, so I stopped midway up to see if I could start on a grade. I could move, but just barely (I can't remember if I turned DSC off). So I spun my way up the rest of the hill slowly. Good thing the light was green by the time I reached the top, because the hill got more steep the higher up I went. If I had to start from a stop at the top, I probably wouldn't have made it. So hill + RWD + performance snows (Dunlop M3's) = not so great, especially from a stop.

Driving straight on roads was also somewhat more difficult than I'd have expected. Occasional wheel slip and slight fishtailing on all three levels of DSC operation. No major complaints, but I definitely thought it was more drama than it should have been.

Turning corners was probably the most challenging, especially with cars immediately to my side. At Lombard and President (for those of you who know Bawlmer), I attempted to turn left onto Lombard and immediately fishtailed. Correction was fine, even though I only steered right and let go of the throttle (a no no in RWD cars, I guess), but I really was slipping and sliding all over the place.

So, concluding thoughts. I realize that it wasn't going to be like driving on dry pavement in the middle of the summer, but I guess I did expect a bit better performance from my snows. I'd be interested to try non-performance ("real") snows, like WS-50's, on a RWD, as well as FWD/AWD with good all-seasons and FWD/AWD with both performance and non-performance snows. I appreciate the handling advantage the M3's probably give me in the dry (which is most of the winter in this area) over WS-50's, but if the performance snows are going to limit me to driving 10 mph in 2" deep snow, I wonder if it would have been better to just get all-seasons like those Pirellis (P Zero Nero?) that people rave about. Wouldn't they give better winter performance in the dry and still be pretty good for the snow, or at least comparable to the performance snows (i.e. 10 mph without fishtailing)?


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## RChoudry (Jan 13, 2002)

that's exactly my experience with LM-22's that were on my 330 coupe last year and are now on my best friend's ZHP. 

snow tires take off the edge, but it's not gonna make a RWD equal to a FWD car.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

swchang said:


> So, concluding thoughts. I realize that it wasn't going to be like driving on dry pavement in the middle of the summer, but I guess I did expect a bit better performance from my snows. I'd be interested to try non-performance ("real") snows, like WS-50's, on a RWD, as well as FWD/AWD with good all-seasons and FWD/AWD with both performance and non-performance snows. I appreciate the handling advantage the M3's probably give me in the dry (which is most of the winter in this area) over WS-50's, but if the performance snows are going to limit me to driving 10 mph in 2" deep snow, I wonder if it would have been better to just get all-seasons like those Pirellis (P Zero Nero?) that people rave about. Wouldn't they give better winter performance in the dry and still be pretty good for the snow, or at least comparable to the performance snows (i.e. 10 mph without fishtailing)?


I've got non-performance snows, Michelin Alpinas, I can go almost anywhere in the snow, and I live way up high in the hills of CT.

A little fishtailing is to be expected, and it's fun.

Weight transfer to the rear should give you good grip going uphill, as long as you're not fishtailing too much.

Getting off the throttle will definitely stop the fishtail, at the slow speeds you're driving in snow, you don't have to worry about weight transfer to the front when lifting off.

Driving in snow is always dicey, the snows give you an extra measure of security, that's all. My advice, stay home if you can.

Ed


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Tire size makes a difference too. What width/aspect ratio are you running?


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## Josh (PA) (Jan 21, 2002)

We went out in the snow today for some XC skiing. When we got to our destination and parked there was only about 3" on the ground. By the time we got done skiing there was a good 8+ and it made for a tough drive home. Most of the roads were unplowed, or at least not recently plowed and there was at least 2 to 4" of packed snow everywhere with some areas even deeper. Our 328i w/ Dunlop Wintersports got through it all, but with some challenges. I found I was shutting off DSC a lot (mostly going up hill or when starting from a standstill) because it was intefering too much making me lose my momemtum. I had to *carefully* run a couple of uphill red lights (nobody was on the road) because if I had completely stopped I'd have never gotten restarted. EVERYONE was having difficulty, I saw a Grand Cherokee lose it and swap ends, I had to stop at one point and help push a Honda Civic. Watching the few other cars that were out there though, I felt my setup performed as well if not better than any FWD car on stock tires. I confirmed this last year when my friend w/ his AWD Passat with crappy all seasons and I did a little head to head parking lot runs in the snow. The E46 with snow tires cornered and braked far better than the Passat. The AWD was pretty helpful getting the Passat going though.

I did learn today when we got back to our housing development that a little more ground clearance would be nice. We turned into our development road and plowed into 8" of fresh powder. I was able to get about 100ft in before we got stuck. My wife jumped into the driver's seat, and I found a home on the back bumper and pushed us the rest of the way home. It was a lot of fun, but we're stuck in for the night as we now have at least 16" outside.

During the two storms we had this week, I've been able to learn all about lift throttle oversteer (I take any snow oppurtunity to find a big parking lot and practice performance driving skills at super low speeds) and how to avoid it. I spent my lunch times the last couple of days hanging the back end out on my e36 M3 (with Blizzaks) at 5 to 8 miles an hour and practicing catching it. Snow driving is so much fun.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

The only real trouble I run into with my 325 with WS-50's is ground clearence in deep snow because of the sport package. In fact the car is fun to drive in the snow.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

It's 82 degrees and sunny.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Josh (PA) said:


> We went out in the snow today for some XC skiing. When we got to our destination and parked there was only about 3" on the ground. By the time we got done skiing there was a good 8+ and it made for a tough drive home. Most of the roads were unplowed, or at least not recently plowed and there was at least 2 to 4" of packed snow everywhere with some areas even deeper. Our 328i w/ Dunlop Wintersports got through it all, but with some challenges. I found I was shutting off DSC a lot (mostly going up hill or when starting from a standstill) because it was intefering too much making me lose my momemtum. I had to *carefully* run a couple of uphill red lights (nobody was on the road) because if I had completely stopped I'd have never gotten restarted. EVERYONE was having difficulty, I saw a Grand Cherokee lose it and swap ends, I had to stop at one point and help push a Honda Civic. Watching the few other cars that were out there though, I felt my setup performed as well if not better than any FWD car on stock tires. I confirmed this last year when my friend w/ his AWD Passat with crappy all seasons and I did a little head to head parking lot runs in the snow. The E46 with snow tires cornered and braked far better than the Passat. The AWD was pretty helpful getting the Passat going though.
> 
> I did learn today when we got back to our housing development that a little more ground clearance would be nice. We turned into our development road and plowed into 8" of fresh powder. I was able to get about 100ft in before we got stuck. My wife jumped into the driver's seat, and I found a home on the back bumper and pushed us the rest of the way home. It was a lot of fun, but we're stuck in for the night as we now have at least 16" outside.
> 
> During the two storms we had this week, I've been able to learn all about lift throttle oversteer (I take any snow oppurtunity to find a big parking lot and practice performance driving skills at super low speeds) and how to avoid it. I spent my lunch times the last couple of days hanging the back end out on my e36 M3 (with Blizzaks) at 5 to 8 miles an hour and practicing catching it. Snow driving is so much fun.


Those blizzaks are well proven


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

I used to use contitouring all-seasons in the winter and I found they got me home pretty well when I needed them. 

The main difference between summer tires and winter ones are that ride you took with your snows would have been extremely dangerous if you had the summer tires on. I had my car when it had Pilot's and it got stuck whenever I came to more then 2" of snow plus it was so slippery when stopping I was literally scared that I was going to crash my car. It was very stressful.

Today I went out with the Quattro which has All-seasons and if I turn the DSC (called esp by Audi) off, I had no problem loosing grip and slipping and sliding. Even with AWD if the roads are slippery your going to feel it. The biggest difference is that you are able to take off from a stop quicker and more confidently.

You made a great choice getting winter tires again for the sole reason that your car is undrivable when it snows if you kept the summer tires on.


Quick example the other day I took the CLK500 which has Michelin Pilots for a ride because it had been sitting in my driveway for 2 weeks without being started or driven. Just using the brakes down my driveway was scary as the car just slid like it was on a set of ski's ... obviously I took a very short drive, was happy to get it back in the driveway in one piece and call it a night.


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## Elwood (Dec 20, 2002)

AF-RX8 said:


> I used to use contitouring all-seasons in the winter and I found they got me home pretty well when I needed them.
> 
> The main difference between summer tires and winter ones are that ride you took with your snows would have been extremely dangerous if you had the summer tires on. I had my car when it had Pilot's and it got stuck whenever I came to more then 2" of snow plus it was so slippery when stopping I was literally scared that I was going to crash my car. It was very stressful.
> 
> ...


 So....you're saying putting rcomps on for tomorrow is a bad idea?


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

ObD said:


> Tire size makes a difference too. What width/aspect ratio are you running?


225/45/17 x 4


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

swchang said:


> 225/45/17 x 4


I ran both 205/50/17 with type 79's and 225/45/17 type 44's ... I noticed no difference in snow driving ...


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Elwood said:


> So....you're saying putting rcomps on for tomorrow is a bad idea?


It's not a bad idea *unless you want to actually drive*


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

AF-RX8 said:


> I used to use contitouring all-seasons in the winter and I found they got me home pretty well when I needed them.
> 
> The main difference between summer tires and winter ones are that ride you took with your snows would have been extremely dangerous if you had the summer tires on. I had my car when it had Pilot's and it got stuck whenever I came to more then 2" of snow plus it was so slippery when stopping I was literally scared that I was going to crash my car. It was very stressful.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know getting non-summers was good, but I wonder if getting good all-seasons like the Pirelli PZero Nero's would have been a better choice, as they appear to be better than the M3's in the dry and only marginally worse in the snow.

About AWD, I don't think for a second that it enable me to cut through the snow like a hot knife through butter and that I'll be doing 55 around bends in no time, but it would help with hills and standstill starts and, I'd imagine, eliminating oversteering through corners (fun as it can be). Perhaps I'd still slip during straightline driving, but I could live with that.

When you took your CLK out, was there snow on the ground, or did the summers just suck so bad 'cuz it was really cold out?


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

AF-RX8 said:


> I ran both 205/50/17 with type 79's and 225/45/17 type 44's ... I noticed no difference in snow driving ...


Oh good. I was originally thinking of getting 205/50/17, but I didn't think it'd snow enough for the benefit of cutting through deeper snow to outweigh the drawback of worse dry handling.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

swchang said:


> Yeah, I know getting non-summers was good, but I wonder if getting good all-seasons like the Pirelli PZero Nero's would have been a better choice, as they appear to be better than the M3's in the dry and only marginally worse in the snow.
> 
> About AWD, I don't think for a second that it enable me to cut through the snow like a hot knife through butter and that I'll be doing 55 around bends in no time, but it would help with hills and standstill starts and, I'd imagine, eliminating oversteering through corners (fun as it can be). Perhaps I'd still slip during straightline driving, but I could live with that.
> 
> When you took your CLK out, was there snow on the ground, or did the summers just suck so bad 'cuz it was really cold out?


 Are you basing your comparison of the Nero M+S on the TireRack's entirely arbitrary consumer rating system, or something else?


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

swchang said:


> 225/45/17 x 4


That is what I run in M2 flavor. No problems here after 3 winters on them. Though mine are H rated so they may have a different compound.

My guess is that under that few inches of snow was ice. What you describe does happen when the roads get icy.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Are you basing your comparison of the Nero M+S on the TireRack's entirely arbitrary consumer rating system, or something else?


Tire Rack and forum comments, although it's possible the forum comments are based off Tire Rack.

Do you have a bad opinion of the Pirellis?

BTW, people, when you say Blizzaks, do you mean WS-50's? The LM-22 and LM-25 are technically Blizzaks as well...


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

swchang said:


> Tire Rack and forum comments, although it's possible the forum comments are based off Tire Rack.
> 
> Do you have a bad opinion of the Pirellis?
> 
> BTW, people, when you say Blizzaks, do you mean WS-50's? The LM-22 and LM-25 are technically Blizzaks as well...


 But WHAT rating on tirerack are you going off of? The 1-10 thing that has absolutely no objective basis in reality?

I have no experience with the Nero, but the fact remains that people rate tires based on their expectations. An all season that works well in the snow will get a higher rating than a snow tire that performs equally as well.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> But WHAT rating on tirerack are you going off of? The 1-10 thing that has absolutely no objective basis in reality?
> 
> I have no experience with the Nero, but the fact remains that people rate tires based on their expectations. An all season that works well in the snow will get a higher rating than a snow tire that performs equally as well.


Comments in general and the 1-10 scale, as well as its overall rating as #1 ultra high performance all-season. The Tire Rack rating system isn't perfect, but unfortunately, I have no other basis to work off. The same reason why I use c|net's ratings. 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=UHPAS


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

swchang said:


> Comments in general and the 1-10 scale, as well as its overall rating as #1 ultra high performance all-season. The Tire Rack rating system isn't perfect, but unfortunately, I have no other basis to work off. The same reason why I use c|net's ratings.
> 
> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=UHPAS


 OK, but why are you willing to consider compromising your safety on the basis a completely arbitrary rating system?


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> OK, but why are you willing to consider compromising your safety on the basis a completely arbitrary rating system?


I'm not. That's why I asked here, as part of my post, whether Pirelli PZero Nero's would be better than my M3's for dry performance and comparable in the white stuff.

Besides, I wouldn't be considering compromising my safety if I were solely relying on the Tire Rack site, because I'd have no other option other than buying both and trying both in a parking lot. That's a lot more expensive, though.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

swchang said:


> ...I wonder if getting good all-seasons like the Pirelli PZero Nero's would have been a better choice, as they appear to be better than the M3's in the dry and only marginally worse in the snow.


At this point, you're complaining about snow traction, and it seems you're convinced that all seasons would be even worse in the snow (I agree). I don't see why you're second guessing yourself about all seasons. If anything, you might consider a snow tire that is more biased towards snow grip...like some Blizzaks.

I like my Dunlop M2s in the snow. As you say, they'll still slip some, but the car is totally driveable when you're careful. That's all I'm asking of them. Plus, they're very acceptable in the dry IMO, as I don't feel like I have to pu$$yfoot around offramps. Sure, I can't push the car hard in the dry, but driving reasonably quick can be done without worrying about dry grip at all. Overall, I think the M2s have a good compromise of dry grip and snow grip for someone in Philadelphia where we don't get all that much snow.


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## Spiderm0n (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> OK, but why are you willing to consider compromising your safety on the basis a completely arbitrary rating system?


I have never had so much information and data to use when buying tires as when I go to the Tirerack site. Before Tirerack I was BLIND when it came to buying new tires. I can't think of a better system: the advice of hundreds of people who have had a given tire, coupled with road tests done by the TireRack staff, and finally topped off by further advice from Gary. I don't see anything "arbitrary" about it.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Spiderm0n said:


> I have never had some much information and data to use when buying tires as when I go to the Tirerack site. Before Tirerack I was BLIND when it came to buying new tires. I can't think of a better system: the advice of hundreds of people who have had a given tire, coupled with road tests done by the TireRack staff, and finally topped off by further advice from Gary. I don't see anything "arbitrary" about it.


 He's using the 1-10 ratings to compare the snow traction of tires. If you can't see why that's BADLY flawed, then I really can't help you.


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## Spiderm0n (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> He's using the 1-10 ratings to compare the snow traction of tires. If you can't see why that's BADLY flawed, then I really can't help you.


Nick, you keep telling us how "flawed" it is to use Tirerack to help decide among tires, yet you provide no other solution. I'd love to hear how you do it.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Here are my ratings with 2" of snow on the ground:

M3 + 18" Summer Tires: 0/10--- you will die
M3 + 18" snows: 4/10--- barely passable, you wonder when you will die.
ML320 with mediocre truck tires: 9/10
ML320 with aggressive offroad tires: 10/10


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Spiderm0n said:


> Nick, you keep telling us how "flawed" it is to use Tirerack to help decide among tires, yet you provide no other solution. I'd love to hear how you do it.


 Well, for one, I speak to my tire shop. For another, I recognize that the 1-10 ratings CANNOT BE COMPARED BETWEEN TYPES OF TIRES!

The TireRack's somewhat scientific tests are kind of useful, but not really.

I pick my tires this way:
1) What will the tire be used for? In this case, the use determined was SNOW.
2) What are the choices out there and how much do I want to spend? In this case, anything in 225/50-17, and as little as possible for a low use tire.
3) What grip levels are reported by people who actually know what they're talking about? This isn't as easy with snow tires, and I ended up just buying based on price.

To reiterate, the TireRack's system CANNOT BE USED TO COMPARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF TIRES. I decide what kind of tire I want and work from there. I don't try and waffle between types, which just isn't going to accomplish anything. If they do one of their semi-objective tests, you can use that as a reasonably baseline of comparison, but there are VERY few of those.

Does this answer your question?


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## bren (Jul 1, 2002)

Spiderm0n said:


> Nick, you keep telling us how "flawed" it is to use Tirerack to help decide among tires, yet you provide no other solution. I'd love to hear how you do it.


He buys a crapload of tires and tests them himself


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## Spiderm0n (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Does this answer your question?


yea. I agree on determining the type of tire first. However, once you have decided on a type of tire I think using the combination of the tire rack tests, customer submitted reviews, and the advice of someone like Gary makes you a very educated consumer.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Spiderm0n said:


> yea. I agree on determining the type of tire first. However, once you have decided on a type of tire I think using the combination of the tire rack tests, customer submitted reviews, and the advice of someone like Gary makes you a very educated consumer.


 My whole point is that using the reviews to compare all seasons to winter tires is pointless.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> My whole point is that using the reviews to compare all seasons to winter tires is pointless.


Well, there's got to be a good way to do it.


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

PhilH said:


> At this point, you're complaining about snow traction, and it seems you're convinced that all seasons would be even worse in the snow (I agree). I don't see why you're second guessing yourself about all seasons. If anything, you might consider a snow tire that is more biased towards snow grip...like some Blizzaks.
> 
> I like my Dunlop M2s in the snow. As you say, they'll still slip some, but the car is totally driveable when you're careful. That's all I'm asking of them. Plus, they're very acceptable in the dry IMO, as I don't feel like I have to pu$$yfoot around offramps. Sure, I can't push the car hard in the dry, but driving reasonably quick can be done without worrying about dry grip at all. Overall, I think the M2s have a good compromise of dry grip and snow grip for someone in Philadelphia where we don't get all that much snow.


What I found using Artic Alpins versus all-seasons (Edit: Sumitomo HTR and Eagle RS-A) on my old Eclipse (never used all-seasons on the BMW) was that the snow tires didn't so much give you velcro grip (though it was better), as massively improve braking performance, as well as cornering predictability. By comparison, the problem with SP9000s in snow wasn't getting moving, which was possible, but what happened when you hit the brakes - instant sliding with zero speed reduction.

I like the Alpins on my 330 (225/45 17), oversteer and all. Hey, that's what makes winter driving fun!


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## Elwood (Dec 20, 2002)

norihaga said:


> What I found using Artic Alpins versus all-seasons (Edit: Sumitomo HTR and Eagle RS-A) on my old Eclipse (never used all-seasons on the BMW) was that the snow tires didn't so much give you velcro grip (though it was better), as massively improve braking performance, as well as cornering predictability. By comparison, the problem with SP9000s in snow wasn't getting moving, which was possible, but what happened when you hit the brakes - instant sliding with zero speed reduction.
> 
> I like the Alpins on my 330 (225/45 17), oversteer and all. Hey, that's what makes winter driving fun!


 I had RS-A's on my old eclipse as well. Truly horrible tire. The replacement toyo's a/s were far better.

edit: I speeka da gooda engrish


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