# 328d Loaner vs Camry SE



## Sike2014 (May 26, 2014)

I have had a 328d for a couple of days as a loaner and I had a new Camry SE as a loaner a few weeks ago. They are both, to me, more or less transportation in place of a car that has the characteristics BMW is built upon. The BMW handles better, but $300 worth of sway bars would even that out. There is about 15k difference in price, so putting a few bucks into the Camry would be OK. The 328d will crush the Camry for fuel economy, but it would take a long time to pay off 15k in gas savings. The interiors are pretty similar, but the Camry has more of the modern electronics, with an awesome backup camera. The V6 in the Camry was very nice, but not exciting. The Camry could probably do 300k miles with much out of the pocket. 

If a car is not going to be exciting, ultimate driving machine, or luxurious like MB, then why spend the extra bucks.

I am wondering if the diesel lovers in the group can shed light on this. I am just giving my impressions and these are honest questions from a lifelong car enthusiast.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

There are other reasons to get a BMW over a Camry SE, perhaps explained by words like "panache" "styling" "soul" etc. Its possible that BMW expects enthusiasts to order the "performance" options also.

Porsches used to be considered the "ultimate in personal transportation" but this has changed to what I would consider "Corvette wanna-be's" or worse yet, cars for rich poseurs, in many respects, rather than for well-heeled engineers with good taste. Audi seems to have become more like the old Porsche anyway with its plurality of recent Le Mans wins.

Being an "ultimate driving machine" is hardly what a Camry is, so BMW becoming more like a Camry in softness and driving feel is hardly a good thing. I certainly don't expect BMWs to suddenly top the reliability ratings either. 

But boring may not describe almost any other marque. My 2005 E320 CDI had the "luxury" suspension from Mercedes but never once screeched a tire or felt unbalanced in fast curves. It also had fantastic brakes and very good steering.


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## 2010335dsport (Apr 21, 2014)

People that say BMW has gone soft must be driving base models. Drive a M-sport or a M and tell me they have gone soft. I think it's great you can choose your ride characteristics. 

Camry is front wheel drive, hard to even compare in the same category if you ask me if you like to 'drive'..


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## Sike2014 (May 26, 2014)

I am not comparing the Camry to BMW in general, instead just these two individual car models. The 328d is a very nice car, but I do not think BMW while driving it.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Sike2014 said:


> I am not comparing the Camry to BMW in general, instead just these two individual car models. The 328d is a very nice car, but I do not think BMW while driving it.


I think "poor man's E-class" when driving a base F30


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

If you order your 328d with DHP for an extra $1K and then get the Shockware upgrade from Dinan for ~$450 installed you won't be thinking about the Camry much anymore. It's a pity that you have to pay another $1500 to get a BMW that drives like it should, but that's the way it is. Forego one of the creature comfort options and get the DHP+Shockware instead. On a RWD car of course. I have no premium package, no winter package, no comfort access, no navigation in my car--I put the money into better tires, bigger wheels, an upgraded suspension, and the exterior mods I wanted instead.


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## Sike2014 (May 26, 2014)

stevehecht said:


> If you order your 328d with DHP for an extra $1K and then get the Shockware upgrade from Dinan for ~$450 installed you won't be thinking about the Camry much anymore. It's a pity that you have to pay another $1500 to get a BMW that drives like it should, but that's the way it is. Forego one of the creature comfort options and get the DHP+Shockware instead. On a RWD car of course. I have no premium package, no winter package, no comfort access, no navigation in my car--I put the money into better tires, bigger wheels, an upgraded suspension, and the exterior mods I wanted instead.


What kind of performance gains did you get and what does it "feel" like?


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

2010335dsport said:


> People that say BMW has gone soft must be driving base models. Drive a M-sport or a M and tell me they have gone soft. I think it's great you can choose your ride characteristics.
> 
> Camry is front wheel drive, hard to even compare in the same category if you ask me if you like to 'drive'..
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


In the past you wouldn't have had to opt for the uber sports pkg. A base model alone would provide a noticeable difference. The competition has caught up in one way or another. Oh and don't knock FWD because there's a FWD BMW "Golf " getting ready to run around Europe.


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## 2010335dsport (Apr 21, 2014)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> In the past you wouldn't have had to opt for the uber sports pkg. A base model alone would provide a noticeable difference. The competition has caught up in one way or another. Oh and don't knock FWD because there's a FWD BMW "Golf " getting ready to run around Europe.


I totally get that. I'm just saying there is an option.. A lot of the people that are complaining just don't have enough knowledge about what BMW has done to pick the correct car to drive to get the driving experience they expect.

And don't get me wrong. I think fwd cars like the Golf can be fun to drive also. I just came from a TDI Cup, and it was fun, just not the same when you are mashing the throttle especially around a corner.

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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

Or you could get a Buick Verano (turbo), or a Nissan Maxima, or Ford something as a loaner as well. Actually there are a lot of great choices now, including some marques that one would never really think of when considering a good driver's car. Yes, the Germans -- some of the Swedes -- Koreans -- Japanese -- and of course even some of the (Horrors!) American iron. Easy to laugh at Detroit iron -- but then take a drive in a new CTS "V", Chev 'vette, SRT8 Dodge, Chrysler 300, JGC, Shelby 'stangs, and even the Raptor/Lightening trucks, for an eye opening experience. We are fortunate to have such a plethora of iron from which to choose.:angel:


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## stevers (Oct 20, 2013)

Pierre Louis said:


> Porsches used to be considered the "ultimate in personal transportation" but this has changed to what I would consider "Corvette wanna-be's" or worse yet, cars for rich poseurs, in many respects, rather than for well-heeled engineers with good taste. Audi seems to have become more like the old Porsche anyway with its plurality of recent Le Mans wins.


Porsche makes two kinds of cars. Incredible cars for the track, and cars for your dentist to get a piece on the side.


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## 2010335dsport (Apr 21, 2014)

stevers said:


> Porsche makes two kinds of cars. Incredible cars for the track, and cars for your dentist to get a piece on the side.


Now that's funny right there..

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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

Sike2014 said:


> What kind of performance gains did you get and what does it "feel" like?


The first F30 I test drove was a base AWD, and the OP remarks comparing it to a Camry were not too far off. Then I drove a base RWD and it was a bit better. Then I got my RWD with DHP and in Sport chassis/throttle it's more or less acceptable as a BMW. I'm having Shockware installed in the next week or two and from all reports Shockware makes Comfort into what Sport is now, and Sport becomes something that matches what a BMW should drive like.


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## Sike2014 (May 26, 2014)

stevehecht said:


> The first F30 I test drove was a base AWD, and the OP remarks comparing it to a Camry were not too far off. Then I drove a base RWD and it was a bit better. Then I got my RWD with DHP and in Sport chassis/throttle it's more or less acceptable as a BMW. I'm having Shockware installed in the next week or two and from all reports Shockware makes Comfort into what Sport is now, and Sport becomes something that matches what a BMW should drive like.


Sounds like a great solution. Is there much of a gas mileage penalty in regular driving, or is it just when one starts to play?


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Sounds like shockwave is a handling software tune, so it shouldnt affect mileage on its own


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

Hoooper said:


> Sounds like shockwave is a handling software tune, so it shouldnt affect mileage on its own


x2--although it will have an indirect effect as you'll want to drive the car harder/faster.


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## Jamolay (May 11, 2014)

Hoooper said:


> Sounds like shockwave is a handling software tune, so it shouldnt affect mileage on its own


I think this might be a great idea. Small, inexpensive and software only.

I am personally new to BMW so do not really know what they are "supposed" to be like. What I do know is that although I do not find comfort mode too boat like or soft, my predilection is to drive in sport mode as I feel the difference and prefer it. 
What I really want is sport chassis in Eco-pro mode. My concern is that the Dinan shock-ware update does not affect steering weight, so in Eco-pro and comfort, there may be improved dynamic shock control, but too loose steering and I will prefer sport anyway.

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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Sike2014 said:


> I have had a 328d for a couple of days as a loaner and I had a new Camry SE as a loaner a few weeks ago. They are both, to me, more or less transportation in place of a car that has the characteristics BMW is built upon. The BMW handles better, but $300 worth of sway bars would even that out. There is about 15k difference in price, so putting a few bucks into the Camry would be OK. The 328d will crush the Camry for fuel economy, but it would take a long time to pay off 15k in gas savings. The interiors are pretty similar, but the Camry has more of the modern electronics, with an awesome backup camera. The V6 in the Camry was very nice, but not exciting. The Camry could probably do 300k miles with much out of the pocket.
> 
> *If a car is not going to be exciting, ultimate driving machine, or luxurious like MB, then why spend the extra bucks.*
> 
> I am wondering if the diesel lovers in the group can shed light on this. I am just giving my impressions and these are honest questions from a lifelong car enthusiast.


This has been my question about BMW's new softer strategy (at least for their base cars) all along. Yes, you can still get a "real BMW" loading up on the options. But most people who buy are not going to do that. At some point I would think the alure of a roundel will wear off for those people when they realize, they have a Camry/Accord like car, but BMW prices. I guess time will tell. N4S


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

need4speed said:


> This has been my question about BMW's new softer strategy (at least for their base cars) all along. Yes, you can still get a "real BMW" loading up on the options. But most people who buy are not going to do that. At some point I would think the alure of a roundel will wear off for those people when they realize, they have a Camry/Accord like car, but BMW prices. I guess time will tell. N4S


Well, I would say you figured it. I would wager that well over 50% of the sales they make are due to the name/brand and not the driving dynamics. Sure, if it drove like crap few people would buy it, but very few new cars actual drive poorly. They will still make the sales because a lot of the buyers wont even notice that the handling quality is diminished on the base model, or wont cross shop with a car like the Camry. The number of new 3 series in the 320i and 328i varieties on base suspension tells you a lot about who is buying new BMWs, but I dont feel like that type of purchaser has really changed in a long time, BMW just decided if people are going to buy them anyway why not sell them a cheaper suspension at the same price? I used to see 323i variants all over the place, same story there aside from that it might have driven more excitingly just as a side effect. I doubt anyone buying a 323 was buying it because of how great of a driving car it was


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

Jamolay said:


> I think this might be a great idea. Small, inexpensive and software only.
> 
> I am personally new to BMW so do not really know what they are "supposed" to be like. What I do know is that although I do not find comfort mode too boat like or soft, my predilection is to drive in sport mode as I feel the difference and prefer it.
> What I really want is sport chassis in Eco-pro mode. My concern is that the Dinan shock-ware update does not affect steering weight, so in Eco-pro and comfort, there may be improved dynamic shock control, but too loose steering and I will prefer sport anyway.
> ...


This is a correct analysis, however I gather that because Shockware improves damper control it does to some extent affect steering wheel feel in the sense of improved feedback. While feedback (or sensitivity) and weight (or heft) are not the same thing they are related in the sense of providing improved overall "feel".


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## Jamolay (May 11, 2014)

stevehecht said:


> This is a correct analysis, however I gather that because Shockware improves damper control it does to some extent affect steering wheel feel in the sense of improved feedback. While feedback (or sensitivity) and weight (or heft) are not the same thing they are related in the sense of providing improved overall "feel".


I hear you saying "do it"!

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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

Jamolay said:


> I hear you saying "do it"!
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Uh, duh...:roundel::roundel::roundel::roundel:


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

Sike2014 said:


> I have had a 328d for a couple of days as a loaner and I had a new Camry SE as a loaner a few weeks ago. They are both, to me, more or less transportation in place of a car that has the characteristics BMW is built upon. The BMW handles better, but $300 worth of sway bars would even that out. There is about 15k difference in price, so putting a few bucks into the Camry would be OK. The 328d will crush the Camry for fuel economy, but it would take a long time to pay off 15k in gas savings. The interiors are pretty similar, but the Camry has more of the modern electronics, with an awesome backup camera. The V6 in the Camry was very nice, but not exciting. The Camry could probably do 300k miles with much out of the pocket.
> 
> If a car is not going to be exciting, ultimate driving machine, or luxurious like MB, then why spend the extra bucks.
> 
> I am wondering if the diesel lovers in the group can shed light on this. I am just giving my impressions and these are honest questions from a lifelong car enthusiast.


Couldn't agree more. BMW has lost its mojo. What continues to puzzle me is how similar a series of cars can be from a performance perspective and while diverging so greatly in price. Status certainly has its attractions, but that penalty has gotten steeper and steeper it seems. My first BMW 335d was a base suspension and, while it had massive grunt, it rode (seriously) like one of those old Buick stationwagons. Swapping the suspension out entirely fixed that problem and were it not for a series of emissions problems and other maintenance issues I'd still be driving it. My second BMW 335d, which went bye bye last weekend (also owing to mounting emissions problems), came stock with the Msport suspension, which was a step down from the BMW Performance Suspension I had in dropped into the first 335d. Some aftermarket sways fixed the body roll but danged if it didn't still have plenty of secondary rebound in the rear suspension that always bugged me a bit. I am now out of BMW diesels and into a 2015 WRX and brother, I'm whole. Handles way better, steers better, corners better, rides better, lacks any secondary rebound over bumps, plenty firm, and just as much pop. Doesn't get the highway mileage, it a** ugly, and has zero status, but the WRX new was 27k whereas the second 335d, had I bought it new, would have been 54 large. It's a head scratcher alright.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=767533

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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

stevers said:


> Porsche makes two kinds of cars. Incredible cars for the track, and cars for your dentist to get a piece on the side.


+1 LOL.

There's a "dentist" at my gym who drives a GT-R like my grandmother drives her Sentra. If he handed me the keys for 15 minutes I bet I could dust off enough carbon to seed 100 pencils.

But if we are being fair, most BMW drivers are perfectly happy these days to think that their F30 base 328i's really are Ultimate Driving Machines, despite never driving them like UDMs. There ARE still loons who do push BMWs though - there's a guy in my neighborhood who drives a blue M5 like a prize lunatic. Come to think of it, I haven't seen him in a bit. Maybe his crazy UDM ways landed him in the pokey.

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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

I think the difference between the best Camry and a base 3-series would be best experienced at the track. But I completely changed my stock suspension too. I took the D to the track before and after. Only real shortcoming was the OEM run flats before. Bad after some laps. 


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## Seppo (May 12, 2014)

Eh, BMW makes a lot of different vehicles, they are not all Ultimate Driving Machines, and they never were. For each 1980's M3 they also did the 325e, hinky rear suspensions on Fives and Sevens up until the early Nineties, trucks like X5, Sevens that were overpriced Mercury Grand Marquis competitors, girly Z3s, and lots of quite ordinary small displacement bare-bones workaday cars all over Europe. Special models could be quite exciting fun to drive, but their range has always been all over the map. Now that they are growing volume by expanding model variations, buyers have to pick and choose models and especially options with care to tailor a driver's fun car rather than something else.

To the OP, I had a need for quality and comfort, a reasonable amount of room, good driving dynamics, and fuel efficiency. I'm coming from a Passat TDI I loved but whose seats caused me back problems, but VW is transitioning to a new Golf and Sportwagen, not yet available in the US in TDI. Audi and Volvo weren't roomy enough to be practical, but 328xd pretty much checked all the boxes I was looking for. I've owned E36 with sport package, so the contrast was clear to me, this F30 diesel does not try to be that sporty and involving, but I'm okay with that for my present requirements. I think lots of people would be happy with the quality, comfort, room, driving characteristics, and fuel efficiency of 328d or xd as long as they know what they are getting. AWD plus diesel plus build quality and seating etc. is worth a premium over Camry or Accord or Fusion.

For that matter, I'm not fixated on BMW. They make some good models for various needs, but so do other manufacturers. Right now 3-series probably is better at what it attempts to be than its direct competitors (old C-class, A4, IS, ATS, S60, Q50) for a broad part of the market, it's the pick of the litter. Not so much 7-series, or 5-series either, I'd much rather have an A6 or E-class than any 5er of F10 generation. There are lots of fine vehicles on the market today from many manufacturers, and they almost have to be evaluated individually. Sometimes just the wrong option package or wheel size can ruin just about any car on the market.


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

Pierre Louis said:


> Porsches used to be considered the "ultimate in personal transportation" but this has changed to what I would consider "Corvette wanna-be's" or worse yet, cars for rich poseurs, in many respects, rather than for well-heeled engineers with good taste. Audi seems to have become more like the old Porsche anyway with its plurality of recent Le Mans wins.


Explain how I am a Corvette wanna-be. :dunno:

Anyone who has spent time behind the wheel of my car describes it as "near driving perfection".

Well-heeled engineer with good taste? That is an oxymoronic sentence? :dunno:

Audi victory at LeMans has what, exactly, to do with their street cars?

Mercedes is crushing Ferrari in F1 right now.

I have NEVER been passed by an Audi (on a dry track....LOL.) Well...maybe there was the guy in the Groupe B Spec Quattro...

Are you just trolling?


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## algreen345 (Oct 18, 2011)

*420d convertible*

Hertz gave me a 420di for the weekend here in Denmark. It is white, with the M-sport package. Nice red stitches on the black leather and very nice red accents on the dash. It looks very elegant. I have a 2011 335d at home in the USA. Of course it has rained very day here so I've only had a few chances to drive the car with the top down.

Driving the car, steering is fine by not very exciting. The car feels wider and longer than the 335d, a bit more planted and stable. Suspension is more compliant, even in sport mode. I like the 8 speed transmission. There is enough power in the 420d, especially in sport mode. If I didn't have the 335d to compare it to I would think it is a fine car. It drives more like the MB C250 I rented in LA a few months ago. That is, it is more like a luxury car.

Last week, Hertz gave me a Ford Focus with a 1.4 litre diesel. The car felt tight. Steering had more responsiveness than the 420d. The interior was in no way as nice, but the handling dynamics were very close to my 335d (without M-Sport).

Net: there are lots of small cars that can probably handle as well as the F30, and with everyone using small engines the differences between cars today are far smaller than they were a decade ago.

Buying preferences come down to ego and wallet.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

DaveN007 said:


> Explain how I am a Corvette wanna-be. :dunno:
> 
> Anyone who has spent time behind the wheel of my car describes it as "near driving perfection".
> 
> ...


I've owned 3 Porsches and have known personally top mechanics and body men, attended Parade etc. I did my own maintenance and tune ups. I didn't track them however I had my Carrera 3.2 aligned to track specs. It was never about the bragging rights or flash. Sure, being passed by anyone when driving my 911 was a rare event... My Carrera still had manual steering, no airbags or ABS, and felt mechanical/connected. We could still dance, but it had a lot of extra understeer dialed in so it didn't feel as good as my 1966 912.

The following may explain it to you a bit better. Sorry you are so offensive ("trolling") in judging others' opinions/experience. http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...vs-2014-porsche-911-carrera-s-comparison-test In the past, this would be a contest that the Corvette would be so different that it would have been a matter of preference: boudoir dragster vs. precision engineering sculpted beauty.

That Porsche has lost its moxie is more subtle. Its advertising has made it seem like they own Le Mans etc. They put in electronic controls/nannies for much of their performance hardware to make them faster but lessen the driving experience (now you get your thrills from super high speed). There was an article/editorial in Excellence a few years back with a similar sentiment, but the magazine has changed since and has little if any passion for how Porsche enthusiasts used to think. Its all about speed and styling now. You can't work on them yourself even if you tried, and a large bank account to keep them in your driveway. Corvette may now be the more honest sports car, mechanically speaking, without having the engine sounds artificially piped into the cabin! Corvette can come with an exhaust that changes with a special valve, but at least its not fake!

The worst offense in my view at the Savannah Parade was a car Porsche AG made the center of their marketing: a new Targa optioned out: how a car that already costs $100,000 could be priced up to $150,000 with only cosmetic options! This is not your grandfather's well engineered but reserved Porsche any more.

Except for perhaps the Boxster/Cayman which are their lowest priced cars and can be ordered without an automatic transmission, electronic enhancements, and cosmetic enhancements, the others are not what I would call very different from very overpriced Corvette competitors. Nothing wrong with a Corvette, but the image and practicality of a 911 is no longer "cutting edge" IMO. See the newest comparison of the M4 to a 911 in the August 2014 Car and Driver (not published on the Internet yet). The car market has changed.

PL


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## diablo2112 (Nov 19, 2006)

All your points are valid. Only you can decide what you want. Sounds like the new BMWs aren't for you. Luckily, there's dozens of other brands. Find something else and knock yourself out.

From BMW's perspective, they're happy, too. Sales numbers continue to increase. They'll move more than 2 MILLION cars this year alone. So, they don't have much incentive to change their current direction, either. As much as you'd like to think BMW is making cars that appeal to your personal needs, they aren't. They're making cars to appeal worldwide, to the largest possible base of potential customers.

And whether you personally approve or not, BMWs direction is correct if judged on sales numbers and profit. Simple fact: improved fuel efficiency, carbon taxes, fuel costs, and other regional factors are driving the world automotive market to efficient diesel engines. Whine all you want. It's inevitable.


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

I am not the OP but a bystander. My disagreement with BMW is not petrol versus diesel for I agree strongly with diesel as a path to reducing carbon footprint, but rather with BMW's hamfisted implementation of that strategy. The F30 328d weighs upwards of 2 tons. In Europe one can choose among three different diesel engines in the 2 series, shaving ca. 700 lbs and, with the largest diesel variant, obtaining 328d-like efficiency with 335d-like power. The OP's argument seems to be that there are a great number of cars in that offer good efficiency, decent everyday driving dynamics, comfort, and lots of luxurious appointments for $10-20k less than the 328d. According to Fuelly, 328d economy is good but not great and no one is bragging about their trap times on Youtube. General Motors sells a gazillion cars a year too but I would not use that as an argument in favor of owing one.

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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

diablo2112 said:


> And whether you personally approve or not, BMWs direction is correct if judged on sales numbers and profit. Simple fact: improved fuel efficiency, carbon taxes, fuel costs, and other regional factors are driving the world automotive market to efficient diesel engines. Whine all you want. It's inevitable.


I think that was the point of this thread. BMW sacrificed driving quality for sales numbers. From a company standpoint they seem to be doing the right thing, but from an enthusiast standpoint they arent.

FWIW, nobody has complained about the use of diesel engines. Maybe about the downgrade of engine that is available, but thats more a conversation about engine options than the overall car.


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## Sike2014 (May 26, 2014)

Hoooper said:


> I think that was the point of this thread. BMW sacrificed driving quality for sales numbers. From a company standpoint they seem to be doing the right thing, but from an enthusiast standpoint they arent.
> 
> FWIW, nobody has complained about the use of diesel engines. Maybe about the downgrade of engine that is available, but thats more a conversation about engine options than the overall car.


Since I started the thread, I can comment on that fairly accurately. The 328d is a great car, but it does not make me think "ultimate driving experience" any more than that Camry does. So, they are making decisions that are great for sales, but might need to modify their slogan. And, 44k for a car that really feels mostly like a point A to point B car might not be reasonable, if that experience is removed. But, these are just some thoughts, and with these and about $5, you can get a cup of coffee these days.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Hoooper said:


> I think that was the point of this thread. BMW sacrificed driving quality for sales numbers. From a company standpoint they seem to be doing the right thing, but from an enthusiast standpoint they arent.
> 
> FWIW, nobody has complained about the use of diesel engines. Maybe about the downgrade of engine that is available, but thats more a conversation about engine options than the overall car.


And do we even know how much of the additional revenue is being converted into profit? I haven't looked at BMW profit margins but with all the new models I'm thinking that they're getting squeezed.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

I doubt they are getting squeezed. They are selling a car which under other brands similar models are selling in the $35k and under range, but BMW is selling it for $40k. Sure the $5k difference is definitely not pure profit as there are some differences in build/transport/materials/labor but I would be surprised if their margins dropped much or at all


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

tonyspumoni said:


> I am not the OP but a bystander. My disagreement with BMW is not petrol versus diesel for I agree strongly with diesel as a path to reducing carbon footprint, but rather with BMW's hamfisted implementation of that strategy. *The F30 328d weighs upwards of 2 tons*. In Europe one can choose among three different diesel engines in the 2 series, shaving ca. 700 lbs and, with the largest diesel variant, obtaining 328d-like efficiency with 335d-like power. The OP's argument seems to be that there are a great number of cars in that offer good efficiency, decent everyday driving dynamics, comfort, and lots of luxurious appointments for $10-20k less than the 328d. According to Fuelly, 328d economy is good but not great and no one is bragging about their trap times on Youtube. General Motors sells a gazillion cars a year too but I would not use that as an argument in favor of owing one.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T399 using BimmerApp mobile app


3318 lbs (manual) - 3366 lbs (auto) does not sound like "upwards of two tons" to me. And that is exactly 7 pounds heavier than the E90 328 was.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

yeah I was under the impression that the f30 was similar in weight or lighter than the e90 when compared to the equivalent variant


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## diablo2112 (Nov 19, 2006)

tonyspumoni said:


> According to Fuelly, 328d economy is good but not great


According to an actual owner of this car, your comment is ridiculous. The 328dx is the most fuel efficient AWD vehicle sold in the USA. By any standard - ANY - that's stunning fuel economy. I disagree completely with your statement. Fuel economy on our F31 has been nothing short of stellar. We occasionally see over 50mpg for long stretches of highway driving, and our lifetime mpg, over every mile driven, is right at about 40mpg. How is that not great??????

I also disagree that the 328d isn't "sporty" or "the ultimate driving experience". It's handling dynamics are stellar, as good as our prior E90 and very nearly the same as our current F30 335i. Of course, I have the luxury of living the rural Rocky Mountains, and get to drive twisty, traffic free roads nearly every week. The 328dx is brilliant in these conditions.

The amount of ignorance, misinformation (the 328d isn't "nearly 2 tons"), and bias against this model is laughable. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But stop trying to convince this rest of us that it was a poor choice.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

To be fair, this started as an opinion of someone's rental drive. It can hardly be ignorant or wrong. His experience likely doesnt reflect the experience of driver's who own the DHP package as was noted early on and also wont necessarily reflect the opinions of someone who bought the actual car. Fact is, driving feel is not quantifiable and what one person thinks is a great handling and tight car might feel loose as a school bus to someone else. If you want to compare the cars on actual data then start a thread comparing track times, but in a thread about someone's opinion of the drive they can hardly be "wrong".

There is definite misinformation and also bias. Honestly, a lot of people are disappointed in the perceived softness of the new chassis and others (myself included) are disappointed that they downgraded the diesel option to only a 2.0L. Its not a question of whether the 2.0 is a crappy engine or inefficient, few here would believe it is, but if you have an e90 with M57 and now the only 3 series choice is the N47 youre going to disappointed IF the power and fun is the reason you own the M57.


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

Curb weight on BMW 328d xdrive is 3790 lbs. Nearly 2 tons. Hardly a ridiculous comment and certainly far from misinformation.

I am genuinely glad that those who own them prize them, as stated in nearly every post in which I have offered my views on the 328d. Yet those views have not changed nor do they represent extremest ones - others have felt likewise, particlularly those who felt as I did and do that thye 335d represented a much superior compromise between power and effieciency. I almost never lend too much credence to the "OMG I saw 50 mpg....." because if it were true it would be stated in in a wide range of formats. I am much more inclined to believe formats such as Fuelly where the claimant does not get a reward for posting data that validates their own choices. And far from trying to convince anyone of anything I am merely offering my own views. If others choose to regard them as either the ranting of a lunatic or as a cautionary note, so be it. 

The 328d has style, cachet, and good efficiency. For my money it offers nothing more and a lot less than the 335d, its erstwhile predecessor. 


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

I tend to keep a car until its no longer reliable enough or my needs change. Getting it right the first time I buy makes a difference in how much money is spent.

Dunno if the 328d would fit my needs, but if I was looking, it would get my attention. The 335d was more of a sports car replacement than a practical choice. I see the higher line of sight in a sedan an advantage in driving fast over country road hills....


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

tonyspumoni said:


> Curb weight on BMW 328d xdrive is 3790 lbs. Nearly 2 tons. Hardly a ridiculous comment and certainly far from misinformation.


When you made your comment about two tons you said 328d, not 328dx.



> I am genuinely glad that those who own them prize them, as stated in nearly every post in which I have offered my views on the 328d. Yet those views have not changed nor do they represent extremest ones - others have felt likewise, particlularly those who felt as I did and do that _*thye 335d represented a much superior compromise between power and effieciency*_. [...]
> The 328d has style, cachet, and good efficiency. For my money it offers nothing more and a lot less than the 335d, its erstwhile predecessor.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


I think this about summarizes our discussion. The 335d sacrificed some fuel efficiency for power; the 328d sacrifices some power for fuel efficiency. We each have our preference and to say the 335 is somehow a better car choice because it has more power is just bias. Saying that more-is-always-better car zines like C&D were drinking BMW's kool aid when even they suggested that the 335 had a bit too much muscle for it's own good doesn't hold water for me. Other reviewers and many drivers felt the torque numbers were a bit gratuitous and that the larger engine negatively affected handling characteristics because of the extra weight on the front end. I vividly remember reading that review and others like it because at that time I was interested in buying a diesel. Those reviews allowed me to decide to wait for the next iteration. Add to that the engine and emissions problems that come with a beta test powertrain, and I'm glad I did.

I can see how keeping up with the Porsches in the hypercompetitive and hyperfast thruways in SoCal help you appreciate every horse and lb-ft you've got, but I think your needs are the exception rather than the rule. I think the head honchos in Munchen agree with me.

If I had a choice between the 335d and the 328d then or now I would opt for the 328d just because of improved fuel efficiency and lower emissions. Those things are more important to me than the extra power that I will rarely be able to take advantage of. When I get Dinan's Shockware in the car next week I'm convinced that the handling will be superior to the E90 335d, which will take my 328d one step closer to the heavenly realms of UDM.

I believe that BMW will put out another 3 litre diesel when the 2 litre gets established in terms of sales in NA. Then everyone can be happy!:roundel:


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

Yep, Steve, that's a pretty good and rational summary of the state of the BMW diesel sedan landscape (and wagons too, lest I get accused of generalizing and then get parsed). You clearly prize the car for what it is, which is good. And yes, I checked now and the 328d has a curb weight of 3,460 so I stand corrected (I think I had looked at the Xdrive originally, so good catch all).

I would happily give a 225d a thorough look because I am definitely in the enthusiast category and, if I cannot have that, then to me ALL other cars become a mere commodity to me.


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

stevehecht said:


> When you made your comment about two tons you said 328d, not 328dx.
> 
> I think this about summarizes our discussion. The 335d sacrificed some fuel efficiency for power; the 328d sacrifices some power for fuel efficiency. We each have our preference and to say the 335 is somehow a better car choice because it has more power is just bias. Saying that more-is-always-better car zines like C&D were drinking BMW's kool aid when even they suggested that the 335 had a bit too much muscle for it's own good doesn't hold water for me. Other reviewers and many drivers felt the torque numbers were a bit gratuitous and that the larger engine negatively affected handling characteristics because of the extra weight on the front end. I vividly remember reading that review and others like it because at that time I was interested in buying a diesel. Those reviews allowed me to decide to wait for the next iteration. Add to that the engine and emissions problems that come with a beta test powertrain, and I'm glad I did.
> 
> ...


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

All thumbs today and not the good kind. I meant 'do KEEP us posted'. I thought the handling was probably better unmodified than the 335d, probably owing to the lower curb weight. 

Sent from my SGH-T399 using BimmerApp mobile app


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

In case you missed this thread http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=777556&highlight=stelvio OP has a very interesting review of Shockware on the 328.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

FWIW this isn't a comparison of the 328d vs 335d, but the 328d vs. Competitor X.

IMO the issue is that BMW positioned the 328d as a fuel miser so naturally it's going to get compared to other fuel misers that happen to cost thousands less. 

Just as many can't use all of the post of a 335d, many won't use all of the handling of a sport pkg optioned 328d. So if the 328d is relegated to an A-to-B car is a tough sell unless you MUST have a BMW. 


It was much easier to compare the 335d to the 335i.


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> FWIW this isn't a comparison of the 328d vs 335d, but the 328d vs. Competitor X.
> 
> IMO the issue is that BMW positioned the 328d as a fuel miser so naturally it's going to get compared to other fuel misers that happen to cost thousands less.
> 
> ...


All good points. BMW has clearly lowered the bar to get into a base BMW. They realized (probably when they found out that the vast majority of 1-series owners didn't know they had RWD) that the way to go to improve market share was to offer a bargain base model for those who wanted the cache/badge. But the value of that badge continues to rest on the enthusiasts who will buy the base model and modify it to achieve a "real" BMW. For the enthusiast it's still a bargain price-wise. For instance, my E30 325 coupe came OEM as "the UDM" straight from the factory and the MSRP was $28,950. That translates into $51,600 in today's dollars. I spent just over $40K for my 328d optioned with DHP, Sport AT, Light Package, and Moonroof. When I'm done modding with wheels, tires, suspension, power upgrade (not counting exterior mods) the total cost will be about $8K south of $51,600.

So BMW wins from a sales point of view and I end up with a custom car I've optioned and modded for $43-44K, much less than relative cost of the UDM of 1990. Amazing! 

So, OP, if you want to complain that the base model feels like a Camry, go buy a Camry and save some bucks. Sounds like BMW is not the choice for you.


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## diablo2112 (Nov 19, 2006)

stevehecht said:


> For instance, my E30 325 coupe came OEM as "the UDM" straight from the factory and the MSRP was $28,950. That translates into $51,600 in today's dollars.


Nice post Steve. I would only add, that 80s icon E30 (the first UDM) had a beautiful inline-6 that made 168 BHP at the shaft with 166 ft-lb of torque. And no-one accused it of being underpowered. To the contrary, all the car mags praised its powerful engine and RWD balance.

Now, our 328d makes 180 BHP with 280 ft-lb. And somehow, its bland and underpowered?

Of course, I had a 1990s NSX super car that got 275HP from a naturally aspirated, 3.0 V6. Now, your stock Nissan Maxima makes about the same power from a similar configuration. The times, they do change...


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

diablo2112 said:


> Nice post Steve. I would only add, that 80s icon E30 (the first UDM) had a beautiful inline-6 that made 168 BHP at the shaft with 166 ft-lb of torque. And no-one accused it of being underpowered. To the contrary, all the car mags praised its powerful engine and RWD balance.
> 
> Now, our 328d makes 180 BHP with 280 ft-lb. And somehow, its bland and underpowered?


Yes, thats how technology works. The very first "sports car" made 20 HP, does that mean we should forever accept 20 HP as "sporty"? 168 HP/166 lb-ft in 1988 was a lot, much like the 245 HP and 345 lb-ft the 1990 corvette made was a pretty respectable dose of power back then, but would be laughed off the block today. 180 HP/280 lb-ft is rather underpowered for a car that is called "the ultimate driving machine" for 2014, but that doesnt mean it cant still be fun to drive. Just like a Prius or a Camaro ZL1, the 328d is probably the perfect car for a lot of people, so whether it is underpowered is subjective. Coming from a 335d, I would think it is terribly underpowered, but if I was coming from a Geo Metro I would probably think it was an absolute beast.


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## stevehecht (Apr 13, 2007)

Another way of looking at power is lb. per unit horsepower (power/weight ratio). For the E30 it's 16.99. For the 328d AT it's 19.22. For the 335d it's 14.43. (The 335d works out to be about 25% more powerful/faster than the 328d.) So the E30 actually has an advantage over the 328d in terms of pounds per hp. But the 328d is able to more than make up the difference with additional low-end torque due to a bigger engine (0-60 for the 328 is 7.4, for the E30 325i it's 7.7).

BTW, here's a listing of the top ten power/weight ratios for cars <$40K: http://www.windingroad.com/articles/lists/list-top-ten-best-power-to-weight-ratios-under-40000/#1 You can see that the 335d would not even be close to getting on this list even costing >$40K but again its humongous torque allows it to run with these cars on the road.


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## diablo2112 (Nov 19, 2006)

Best power to weight vehicle I own is my Birel 32CR shifter kart. Just at 40HP. 385 pounds total weight including driver. 9.625 #/HP. That thing hauls. Race for several years with SKUSA. Never had more fun on a track.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

I think I just saw the only 328d's in Las Vegas. Both on or crossing Industrial. Haha..


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