# X3 smashed at the dealership @$!*& - advice needed



## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

My favorite dealership (former favorite?) managed to do the unthinkable - they smashed my wife's X3 when taking it out of their parking lot.

Yeah, I know - I mean you read about these (mercifully rare) incidents, a cold wave goes up your spine, the hair on your arms stands up and think - God, I hope this doesn't happen to me, I should be luckier than that.

Well no more of that for me.  

The teenager who hit her was the physical embodyment of driving incompetence - shoddily dressed in clothing that can easily catch on a control, barely old enough to be driving or shaving, and sufficiently inarticulate as to not be able to muster a decent apology. Man I wanted to strangle his puny neck right there and then - maybe it's better that he didn't speak much.  

The only manager left there (they were closing up at 6:30PM) said something about a patch of ice - but that's of course BS. From the damage it looks like Mario Jr. took a right-hander too close to a wall, nothing more. (Pics below).

They were very apologetic and said they would take care of me: give me another car like it, fix it etc. And I certainly would like to let them be nice to me. But I do have some questions and so I'm asking for your advice:

1. Should I let them take it to their own bodyshop? I used that in the past and was pleased with the paintwork, but not with the bodywork. I probably could get them to take it to another bodyshop, at the expense of time (the good ones are booked at least 30 days in advance).
2. Should I insist that they change the door shells? (and not attempt to bondo-patch).
3. Or should I just let them know that I want perfect results, and not care how they do it?
4. Should I ask for a feel-good compensation? I'm thinking of trying to get them to install the aluminum running boards for example (a $375 value plus labor, but they'd have to replace the side skirt anyway so the difference would be less). Or maybe ask for another item from the accessories catalog (roof rails or similar).
5. Should I insist they put me in another X3, or failing that in a 325ix?
6. Should I negotiate with a particular manager? (For instance, should I request to talk to the general manager, or the service manager etc.).

What I do intend to make certain they understand, in no uncertain terms - is that I will be absolutely ruthless and anal about the end result. It must be darn perfect in all aspects, as the car was only a few months old and had perfect paint.

I need your advice to prep up my little Monday morning speech - so please keep it flowing.

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## avalys (Oct 14, 2003)

That's inexcusable. I would negotiate hard for a new car. Yours was almost brand-new, and this was their fault. I wouldn't settle for anything less.

It's not like someone rear-ended it while they were taking it for a test-drive. One of their employees is an idiot, this was completely his fault. If there was indeed a patch of ice, he should've been more careful. If there wasn't, he just can't drive. Either way, it was entirely his fault, and thus entirely the dealership's fault.

You've bought two (or more?) BMWs from them already. Make it clear that if they handle this right, you will continue to do so. If they don't, you'll tell everyone you know to avoid buying cars from them: family, friends, colleagues. Tell them that you post on forums like these. Are you a member of the CCA? If not, pretend you are (and become one, Roundel is great!)

_That said_, the damage doesn't look too bad. If the paint is almost brand-new, the matching shouldn't be a problem. But the doors definitely should be replaced, not repaired. Is there any other damage, besides the doors, mirror and running board?

If you let them convince you to have it repaired, tell them that you want the orange peel on the doors to match exactly. A good body shop will do that, while a lousy one won't, and the difference will be obvious, especially on large vertical panels like the doors.

If it was an older car, like more than six months old, I would give in and let them repair it. But less than that? No. They can take the car and use it as a demo or something.


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## Bioking (Oct 24, 2005)

New car at a maximally discounted price.


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

I agree with the points above. Accept nothing less than a new car.


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## LA X3 (Jul 5, 2005)

Well ... it looks reparable to me, but then it's often worse than it looks.

You absolutely _must_ take it to another shop for a damage assessment and estimate before you make _any_ agreement, verbal or otherwise, with the dealer. You should take it to the very best shop you know of and have them go over it with a fine-toothed comb and tell you what it would take to bring it back to perfect spec. Your insurance will cover it, and you have the right (in CA anyway) to take it to any body shop you choose. That is part of your leverage, because if you do that it will come out of the dealer's pocket and/or their insurance. Either way, they don't want that.

On Monday, I would not make any agreements. Tell them up front you are only there to get their damage assessment and their proposal to repair, and that you need to take it to _your_ shop for the same before you can even consider beginning work.


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## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

This is significant damage. Definitely get an estimate from a high end body shop.

I think the bill will be between $5-$10K both the doors need to be redone and their might be other panels also.

It will be in the dealership's interest to take the payment from the insurance company and repair it in their own shop where the costs are low. Make sure it is their property damage liability insurance and not your collission insurance. There is no reason for your rating to be affected.

Ask them to pay you retail value for your car, and agree to sell you a car of your choice at invoice. Let them know that even at invoice they are making about 5% by just selling you a new car because of the CSI cash (BMW's version of the holdback). If they crib on giving you full retail, remind them about the 5% CSI money.

I think the dealer should agree to that. They will have a minimum cash cost and will keep the customer happy.

If they dont give them hell.


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> Ask them to pay you retail value for your car, and agree to sell you a car of your choice at invoice. Let them know that even at invoice they are making about 5% by just selling you a new car because of the CSI cash (BMW's version of the holdback).


Exactly what I would demand, and I wouldn't take NO for an answer.


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

I think they should replace your vehicle since its almost brand new! 

Obviously that damage is not from a patch of ice. . . I live in Toronto I see those patches of ice all day long and trust me thats jus BS! they made up on their part!  
That is some young mechanic or driver's fault who was jus being a JACKASSSS!  

If I were you I would ask them to keep the vehicle and find you the same kind of X3 with the same packages equipped on your car . . .and give them a time deadline say within 2 weeks or something. . .
and if they dont find something then give them the threat of a lawsuit! 
Also meanwhile in the 2 weeks you are to be provided with a complimentary loaner which has to be an X3! no questions asked or something similar like I dunno a 330Xi or a 325Xi. . .watever they decide on has to be of the same class and value of the X3 you were driving before.

ALSO. . .tell them that I its not my fault that the car was into a crash and I have to suffer for that. . .I mean think about it this is a car market you are dealing with. . .when you get your car repaired repainted doesnt matter where you get it from. . .the dealer and wholesaler once you are trading in your car will label your car as been damaged, repaired, and/or repainted. . and easily knockoff a few grand of the trade-in value that you would have gotten if it were not for that teenage faaaag! who scrapped your car :bawling: 

So jus remember to keep these things in mind becuz you will at some point or the other down the road wanna trade-in your vehicle for a newer one! and if you are to keep the same vehicle it will pinch you at the time the sales agent says "oh sir we jus found out your 2 doors were replaced. . .was this car in an accident? oh im so sorry to hear that well we can only offer you 2/3 of what we promised you before!"

Trust me I have been in this boat before . . .being young and stupid and buying my first BMW . . . and that too a flagship model!! 
I mean there a lot of BMW's in my family. . My mom's brother in-law bought his 540i '00 in 99, his brother the M5 '01 in '00. My cousin's uncles both bought 745i '02 and 745Li '03 in the respective model years (new). My cousin bought an X5 4.4i '01 & 325i '06 this summer along with 2 of his aunts who bought with him '05 X5 3.0's for each of themselves. . .and then he bought his dad the 745Li '02 a month and a half ago. I am waiting for my 745Li delivery for next week. 
But all of the above vehicles were purchased either brand new or certified series. . . 

However with my first BMW the 750iL I later found out its right rear quarter panel was repainted and so was its hood. . .I mean it didnt say anywhere in the used vehicle package and certainly didnt feel like it either when you were driving the car! 
I waxed my baby 2wice a month . . .did not feel it ever! but what can you do ? :dunno: thats life . . .you make mistakes you learn . . .and can certainly advise other members not to do the same!


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> This is significant damage. Definitely get an estimate from a high end body shop.
> 
> I think the bill will be between $5-$10K both the doors need to be redone and their might be other panels also.
> 
> ...


They might have an incentive to fix thing "on the cheap side" if they're paying, because most insurance policies have very high deductibles (so that they are not paying every time someone does lot damage). The insurance is mostly there for when they total a car, and definately for liability purposes. In a case like this, the entire cost of that repair is probably going to be charged to their "Lot Damage" account, or to their "Service Policy" account. I don't see this being expensive enough to reach their deductible.

In other words, make sure you stay on top of them to demand top quality work if they do fix the car. I'd take it to one or two body shops on your own and get estimates, and then compare that to what they plan to do in house.

I wouldn't be afraid of bad work (it doesn't really save them money to do crappy vs. quality work), but I would be careful that they aren't cutting corners (that is how they CAN try to save money).


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## whiskey.org (Sep 9, 2005)

they should give you a new car, with more options and a few grand for your trouble

plus they should also re landscape your front yard

anything less is unacceptable


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## coelacanth (Jul 5, 2005)

OUCH! Bondo on a BMW that was bondo-free to begin with. At the very least I'd have them replace the sheet-metal. I agree that they should just take your car at retail and sell you another at invoice, or get you an exact replacement if possible.

A patch of ice...yea right. Good luck and play hardball with them. They owe you.


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## 01silber (Jun 28, 2002)

I would get a new x3 or a lawyer, let them choose
even though any new car loses value after its sold, yours just lost alot more due to the body work that is needed. no way I would take it if they repair the doors and if they replace them with new doors now its a 4 month old repaired vehicle


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## ase2dais (Aug 26, 2005)

adc said:


> My favorite dealership (former favorite?) managed to do the unthinkable - they smashed my wife's X3 when taking it out of their parking lot.
> 
> Yeah, I know - I mean you read about these (mercifully rare) incidents, a cold wave goes up your spine, the hair on your arms stands up and think - God, I hope this doesn't happen to me, I should be luckier than that.
> 
> ...


bring it to the best body shop, and let yur insurance deal with them.


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

ase2dais said:


> bring it to the best body shop, and let yur insurance deal with them.


Why on earth would he get HIS insurance involved?!?!


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Thanks guys!

You all seem to favor getting them to talk about seeling the car to them at retail, and getting a new one at invoice.

If that were possible, it would be interesting - despite the headache I don't need, and the $2k sales tax I would have to pay etc.

I'll wait until tomorrow morning and see what they offer, get them to do an estimate on the repair and perhaps do an estimate of the repair myself at a separate shop.

I'll report back with my findings - and I sure do appreciate your advice and support.

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

MrAirbags said:


> Why on earth would he get HIS insurance involved?!?!


It is called subrogation. It is when you don't agree. You let your insurance company deal with their insurance or them to get the loss covered.

My example: a tow truck driver back into my car. They had me go to 2 of thier body shops, I went to mine. Estimates were way different. They drug their feet. I went ahead and turned it into my insurance and had the car fixed. I paid the deductible that my insurance required and let the insurance deal with it. In the end I got a check from their insurance for my deductible.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

*Think Buyback*



adc said:


> They were very apologetic and said they would take care of me: *give me another car like it,* fix it etc. And I certainly would like to let them be nice to me. But I do have some questions and so I'm asking for your advice:


I think the answer is simple if the car is 4 months old. Have them give you a new one where they will also pay for the tax and registration, so that you are in the same position you were in before the accident. (Slightly better, since you'll have a car with 4 months less miles on it, but that's for your inconvenience.) Didn't you say they offered to do that? (See your quote above.)

You made some comment about having to pay the taxes. That's part of your damages. Let them pay tax and registration; you paid it the first time, now it's their turn. It's similar to a lemon buy back. (If this were an insurance claim with a totaled car, the insurance company - yours or the other guy's - would pay tax and registration in California to replace a car 4 months old.)


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## ilkhan4 (Jul 8, 2004)

Just to add to what others have said, make sure you deal with the general manager and don't get railroaded into talking to some underling of his sent down to deal with you. We went through something similar when Vista smashed up my M Coupe. Only difference there was that it was leased, so they didn't have much incentive to make us happy, as the leasing company owned the car. I'm assuming that you actually own it and that's why they're offering as much as they are.

Make them get you into a new car. You should be put back into the same position you were in financially before the accident. A car with an accident history isn't just worth less, it's also harder to sell. You don't want to deal with that later on, trust me.


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## PALELLA (Dec 12, 2005)

Those that have said that the dealership should give you a new car are ridiculous!! Accidents happen. The damage is cosmetic and can be easily taken care of. The dealership should not repair either of the doors or any other damaged parts, but replace them with new parts and provide a loaner X3 or better. Also you should be offered a discount on your next purchase or some sort of credit.


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## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

Also there is a diminished value issue you need to worry about if you take back the car. The accident will show up in Carfax and when you sell it you would lose 10-20%


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## PALELLA (Dec 12, 2005)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> Also there is a diminished value issue you need to worry about if you take back the car. The accident will show up in Carfax and when you sell it you would lose 10-20%


If the accident is not reported and a claim is not filed it will not show up on a CarFax. The vehicle will also not lose 10-20% value. That's ridiculous. The damage is cosmetic and if it's properly fixed will not diminish anything at all.


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## James (Jun 30, 2004)

PALELLA said:


> If the accident is not reported and a claim is not filed it will not show up on a CarFax. The vehicle will also not lose 10-20% value. That's ridiculous. The damage is cosmetic and if it's properly fixed will not diminish anything at all.


 So when selling the car and someone asks if it's been in an accident you lie? Or do you tell the truth....which then requires you to give some incentive to buy your fixed X3 vs someone's X3 of identicle value that's never been in an accident.


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## ___lk___ (Dec 21, 2001)

personally, i would call a lawyer before talking to anyone at the dealership. 

this is a complicated situation, especially w/ the other driver involved. u need at least basic advice from a professional to handle this properly. 

money well spent, in my opinion.


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## PALELLA (Dec 12, 2005)

James said:


> So when selling the car and someone asks if it's been in an accident you lie? Or do you tell the truth....which then requires you to give some incentive to buy your fixed X3 vs someone's X3 of identicle value that's never been in an accident.


I wouldn't lie but instead keep pictures of the damage and invoices to show that it was fixed to be perfect again. That IMO is minor damage. Just cosmetic. Nothing that was damaged will affect the drivability or reliability of the vehicle.

I'm basically saying that the dealership will not replace the vehicle and call it a day. Selling it back to them at the right price could be an option though.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

James said:


> So when selling the car and someone asks if it's been in an accident you lie? Or do you tell the truth....which then requires you to give some incentive to buy your fixed X3 vs someone's X3 of identicle value that's never been in an accident.


That's just it - I could/would never lie to a potential buyer, come selling time. Out of principle if you want, maybe it's something I would never want to happen to me. Ommission is also not on the menu...

In 6-7 years the car will probably be worth $11-$13k and a car with a repair history will indeed easily fetch $1-2k less than a pristine one (prospective buyer must have some incentive to buy mine, as opposed to the pristine one next door).

Another thing to consider is this - will their paint job last 6-7 years or more the same way a factory job would? Do they maintain the car's corrosion warranty? If someone has had any long term experience with an "aftermarket" paint job, I'd appreciate your sharing it.

So the bottom line is this: do I let them repair it now and loose the $2k later, or do I struggle to get it "replaced" with a new car, and pay the $2k upfront?

My car is 6 months old (June 30 ED) and I doubt that they will pay everything including the sales tax to get it replaced. I can certainly try, but I suspect it will be very uphill...

To add a point of clarification to something I've mentioned earlier - they had offered to put me in a similar car (X3) for the duration of the repair only.

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

My only recommendation is to let them make you an offer first. If you go in with hostility, mentioning lawyers, insurance, and pointing fingers claiming someone is at fault (regardless of how accurate you are), you will put them on the defensive and what may have been a quick settlement might turn into something far more complicated and drawn out.

Don't accept their offer right away... but get it in writing. Think about it.

I'd guess you will need to seek counsel sometime after this meeting, and you've got a long road ahead of you. However, if it were me, I'd be interested in seeing how reasonable the dealer is. Their first pass offer of what they would like to do for you might be exactly what you're looking for.

Personally, I'd push for a replacement vehicle with a pre-negotiated trade-in value of the repaired X3 plus a substantial discount on the new X3. I'd want a loaner to cover me until the new vehicle arrived. Failing that, I'd insist on using my own body shop so you have some better control over having it fixed properly. 

In the end, put your frustration aside, take the dealer's offer home and sleep on it. You'll do much better with a clear head. They sound cooperative so far.


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## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

PALLELA:

Have you ever tried selling a car with an accident? I have and it is not pretty.
If the car is worth less than $7-8K it does not matter. But for a BMW that is 7+years.

If the OP wants to sell his car after 4 years, when the car is worth $20K, he will definitely take a hit. People buying premium cars are not that price sensitive. The buyer would need a substantial incentive to go for a car with an accident. On a $20K car, that translates to $2-3K, not $500.


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

That's just it - I could/would never lie to a potential buyer said:


> I understand what you are saying. . .but trust me start from the top by seeing what they are offering. . .and then tell them what you are looking for. . .
> i.e replacement of this vehicle with one of similar age and mileage. . .perhaps they have a demo X3 and negotiate that they conduct a straight trade. . .
> because were it not for the accident which was the dealership's fault . . .both vehicles would be valued similarly :angel:


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## TJS///M3 (Sep 13, 2004)

PALELLA said:


> If the accident is not reported and a claim is not filed it will not show up on a CarFax. The vehicle will also not lose 10-20% value. That's ridiculous. The damage is cosmetic and if it's properly fixed will not diminish anything at all.


And this is why I think CarFax is worth nothing more than the paper it is printed on. It seems for some people that they always know a way around the system and can manipulate it when they want to gain an advantage.

And I also disagree with you on the diminished value of the vehicle. It WILL diminish the value of the car, and for someone looking to buy an X3 a few years down the road they WILL be expecting a nice discount on a car that has had paint work in order to consider buying it. To think otherwise is what is ridiculous.

When I am considering purchasing a used car, the first question out of my mouth is: "Any paint work and/or damage?" If the answer is yes, that is an immediate reduction in what I'm willing to offer.

To the OP, I would listen to what the dealer is offering, then take a day or two and come back with what you want. Realize that they are going to play the "Oh, no way we can do that!" game. You'll have to be firm, and remind them alot that this is THEIR fault.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Push for vehicle replacement. If they force the bodywork option, ask for compensation for reduced value since the car is so new. If the dealer declines reduced value, then go back to demanding a replacement vehicle.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

xspeedy said:


> Push for vehicle replacement. If they force the bodywork option, ask for compensation for reduced value since the car is so new. If the dealer declines reduced value, then go back to demanding a replacement vehicle.


My thoughts exactly.Get it repaired and you'll pay for it at trade in time.Get a new vehicle.
Good luck.
cheers
vern


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

You´re asking for advice, so here´s mine:

I´d simply stay calm and let them fix it. Make sure they replace the door skins, not try to pull them out / plaster them. But they´d have to do that anyway, the dent is so through the crease, replacing the skin is the only way anyhow. All you need is new doorskins and a new running board and door handle.

Really it is a harmless denting. The structure of the vehicle has not been molested.

Let them put you into a really nice loaner or rental for the while (If you ever wanted to drive a 650 or similar, this is the time) and give them time to fix your car properly.

Be attentive when they present the repaired car and make sure the paintjob is top notch and you´ll be fine.

When time comes to sell the car, and you were happy with the treatment at the dealership, just trade it in. They wouldn´t dare argueing a lower trade-in because of the accident. Make sure to keep the pictures if you care to sell it privately later. This kind of damage really does not warrant any depreciation and any knowledgable buyer will be able to tell from the pictures.

All in all, just stay calm. It´s really just a bit of bent metal. If the dealership treat you nicely now, there´s no reason to make a big fuss out of it. You´ll get your car back good as new, with less miles on it than if you´d driven it for the duration, and you´ll be riding some other fine car for the while.

Nothing to loose any sleep over. Life is too short to worry about a fender bender.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

adc said:


> Another thing to consider is this - will their paint job last 6-7 years or more the same way a factory job would? Do they maintain the car's corrosion warranty? If someone has had any long term experience with an "aftermarket" paint job, I'd appreciate your sharing it.


The factory does not have "magic paint" such as some seem to believe. Of course there are bad body shops and bad paint shops. But a competent car painter will put on paint as well as or even better than the factory.

If the sheet metal is replaced instead of bent back (which really, with the kind of damagae should be easier AND cheaper), there´s really actually little for the bodyshop to do. Just weld the new skins to the door frames and replace the running board. Then a good paint job and voila, the car really is as good as new.

All you people out there with what you consider factory paint: How do you know it is?  So often cars get damaged before delivery, they get repaired without your knowledge. It really is practically impossible to find non structural damage that has been well repaired.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

tierfreund said:


> The factory does not have "magic paint" such as some seem to believe. Of course there are bad body shops and bad paint shops. But a competent car painter will put on paint as well as or even better than the factory.


True. But trade in a car to a dealer, and the appraiser will run a tool over the paint to measure the thickness. Factory paint is thin and uniform, and bodyshop paint is thick and uneven. If the appraiser sees the signs of non-factory paint, they'll assume the car has collision damage. If the appraiser asks the owner, he is in a position where he has to be honest about the car having been damaged and repaired.


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## FDMeloan (Jan 17, 2005)

*Where in the Washington, D.C. area?*

adc:

Accidents happen. If someone other than a dealer had hit you you wouldn't expect them to give you a new vehicle and no insurance company would do anything much more than pay for your repairs.

None of the Washington, D.C. BMW dealer body shops have a great reputation.

Find the best body shop in the Washington, D.C. area and have them do the work and let your insurance company deal with your BMW dealer. From my personal experience I can highly recommend First Choice Body Shop in Arlington, VA. They have done two major repairs on my wife's 525iT and they did a perfect job both times. If you let them do the work on your X3 I'm willing to bet that you will be totally satisfied. Unlike the dealer's body shop they have no incentive to cut corners on your repair.

I strongly suggest that you call Ray Moxley at 703 836-6920 and make an appointment for an estimate.

Finally, I believe that Wagon Werks in the Arlington area will also do a great job for you. However, I have never used them as I have always been totally happy with the work from First Choice.

My $0.02. YMMV


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## PALELLA (Dec 12, 2005)

xspeedy said:


> True. But trade in a car to a dealer, and the appraiser will run a tool over the paint to measure the thickness. Factory paint is thin and uniform, and bodyshop paint is thick and uneven. If the appraiser sees the signs of non-factory paint, they'll assume the car has collision damage. If the appraiser asks the owner, he is in a position where he has to be honest about the car having been damaged and repaired.


You guys must have some PICKY dealerships!!! I've seen them check for frame clamp marks and look at seems and gaps. If a dealer or appraiser doesn't give you what the car is worth, simply take it somewhere else.


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## Bioking (Oct 24, 2005)

Would you not pay sales tax on the difference between your car and a new one? It is a trade-in. Where you live, would the tax actually be as high as you stated?

In a lot of the posts, it is recommended to be demanding and tough on the dealer. Right now you have the high ground. Be demanding and tough, and try it in a nice way. Once you piss them off, you will be getting your hurt car fixed, and in the end you will come out on the short end of the situation, even it the repair is top quality.


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## 01silber (Jun 28, 2002)

PALELLA said:


> Those that have said that the dealership should give you a new car are ridiculous!! Accidents happen. The damage is cosmetic and can be easily taken care of. The dealership should not repair either of the doors or any other damaged parts, but replace them with new parts and provide a loaner X3 or better. Also you should be offered a discount on your next purchase or some sort of credit.


actually your post is ridiculous, when he goes to sell or trade his x3 in the future and the repair is noted at the dealer he will get much less for the x3, why would he be making payments on a new x3 that the dealer wrecked??? would you be ok with it???
when he is told that they are subtracting 4k from his trade in value or the sales price due to damage repair he will not be happy


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

PALELLA said:


> You guys must have some PICKY dealerships!!! I've seen them check for frame clamp marks and look at seems and gaps. If a dealer or appraiser doesn't give you what the car is worth, simply take it somewhere else.


I dont think you have ever traded-in your vehicle and later be surprised with the low trade-in value jus becuz the owner before you got some repainting done......  
Every DEALER has the paint meter to measure thickness of the paint.......the factory paint comes within a certain range......ANY REPAINTING....and I REPEAT ANY REPAINTING....will show on the paint meter as being not original!

WHY SHOULD "adc" SUFFER AS A RESULT OF THE DEALERSHIP'S MISHAP?????

HE SHUD BE GIVEN AN X3 similar to the one he has.....or be allowed to trade it in for a new one and be given a discount on a new one...or a demo perhaps whichever is feasible for the dealer!


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Well guys,

The guns are out blazing... I just returned from the dealership where I had a short chat with the service manager. First he took a good look at the vehicle, then we went inside and he laid out his proposal.

Basically they want to fix the car "perfectly" as he put it (so that I could not tell the difference - of course that can be debated) and meanwhile offer me a loaner X3 while the repairs are done. He mentioned that if I'm thinking about diminished value, that's not going to be the case, because they will use OEM parts, paint etc and BMW-approved repair techniques.

I didn't reply specifically to any point, but rather asked that I get a copy in writing - which he readily agreed to. Then I told him that I'll take the next couple of days to do some research into the subject and will get back to him - and take it from there.

He was very polite and apologetic, but obviously will not go out of his own way to satisfy this customer - at least not at the first encounter.

Now I need to do some online research into diminished value - does anybody have any pointers or ideas where to start?

I also plan tomorrow to get a couple of independent estimates for the repair, from some good bodys shops as recommended by some of you.

Thank you very much for the advice, I'll keep the board posted with the latest developments. Not necessarily to complain, but as a potential guide to anybody who may find themselves in my situation...

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## Bioking (Oct 24, 2005)

I must admit this one has been very interesting to follow with the different opinions and back and forth. I hope adc lets us know how it all turns out.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

tierfreund said:


> The factory does not have "magic paint" such as some seem to believe. Of course there are bad body shops and bad paint shops. But a competent car painter will put on paint as well as or even better than the factory.


As someone who has insurance and bodyshop background, what you said above is absolutely 100% incorrect. :spank:

Bodyshops do not have chemical treatment capability to really clean the panels. I don't care if it has been pre-treated at teh factory. It was not handled by robots without oil and crap or stored in a clean room. Trust me, the paint prep process in most, if not all bodyshops are nothing special compares to the factory. :thumbdwn:

Add to that most don't use Glasurit, or a real mixer, or be able to spray the right thickness (afterall, you got painters who are human competing with robots, and I guarantee you thees painters aint no Aston Martin master painter). :thumbdwn:

Let me put it this way, knowing what I know about the business, I will never ever keep/buy a car worht more than a few grand that has been painted.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

LA X3 said:


> So the question then becomes, what solution maximizes adc's value, while minimizing the cost to the dealer? Some of this requires numbers we don't have, like the cost of the repairs at both the dealer and an independent shop, a reasonable estimate of the diminished value, and the invoice cost of an identical replacement. Given those, it might be possible to fashion a solution for adc.


Give me a day or two, I'm working on it...  But by all means, let's all try to maximize adc's value. :thumbup:

The only hard numbers I have right now is the *US invoice* cost for a replacement - $39k and the *retail* value of my car (in outstanding condition) - $38k.
Hopefully I'll be able to come up with the other numbers in a few days.

Of course, having these numbers and convincing the dealer what's best for them may be two completely different things... :dunno: In the meantime I'll settle for my recipe of not getting dissappointed: accept the worst case, work your hardest, and aim for the best case.

After all the information and goodwill shown to me by you posters, of course I'll keep you posted as to any new developments.  (just tell me when to stop).

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

Stuka said:


> Dealers are there to make $$.
> 
> To really protect yourself, you need to buy yourself a paint meter. When we were entertaining the thoughts of a nice E34 M5, I was looking into paying a few hundred bucks to get a paint meter for me to run along ALL panels to confirm that no repaint was done.
> 
> Certified Preowned doesn't mean "certified original paint." :tsk: :thumbdwn:


I never said that certified preowned means certified orginial paint....but the dealership where I am getting my vehicle from gave me an accident free report....and have given me there word that the car hasnt been repainted...
My cousin as I mentioned earlier in my post bought his Silver 7475Li also certified...whereby the passenger's door is repainted.....i MEAN u cud jus feel the paint being rough along the door....  ...i mean its sad but its true that yes certified doesnt mean certified original paint......but jus for the record yet once I get my vehicle I will run a paintmeter on it....but since the dealership has given me there word of no repaints... I will go with that....since its BMW...they would not lie or misrepresent any of there vehicles once they say somethin......
However in the case of m cousin's 745 he never asked them about any repainting.....and they never told him....but i guess thats life....u make mistakes and then learn...which is why i asked for the accident report and if it was repainted before.... :angel:


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## miz4 (Jul 20, 2005)

*Accident Report*

What is the accident report you speak of ? CarFax-its not accurate.
The salesman told you so? Nuff said.

If you want to be 100% sure that the care you buy from the dealer has never ever
been painted, touched up, or in any way or shape mangled-Ask them to put it in writing.
My guess is that they won't without a lot of fine print.

Bottom line; there is that old saying of caveat emptor-buyer beware. If you want to be sure go buy a paint thickness gauge, a magnet, AND take the car to a body shop to have them check it out.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

01silber said:


> if they are not going to give you a new one no matter what then I would
> 1. get them to give you a 500.00-1000.00 worth of x3 accessories from the bmw catalog
> 2. have a contract signed by the owner/owners of the dealer that at time of trade in(at that dealer) they will give you full market trade and NOT deduct one cent for the repaired paint
> 2.pay a very small amount and get a brand new one from them now and trade yours back to them


Good. I´d say point 2 is a very viable option. That plus a perfect repair job and ADC should be fine.

It think some ppl around here are beeing unresonable. Accidents do happen all the time and all you´re entitled to when somebody dents your car is a perfect repair and a loaner. Maybe some very slight depreciation payment (usually a lot less than one would expect)
Just because it was damaged by a dealership doesn´t change the basic legal position.

@adc. I think your doing fine. From what you´re writing, it seems you´re keeping your cool at all times and continue to be friendly and polite. That´s always a good recipe for a good outcome.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Stuka said:


> As someone who has insurance and bodyshop background, what you said above is absolutely 100% incorrect. :spank:
> 
> Bodyshops do not have chemical treatment capability to really clean the panels. I don't care if it has been pre-treated at teh factory. It was not handled by robots without oil and crap or stored in a clean room. Trust me, the paint prep process in most, if not all bodyshops are nothing special compares to the factory. :thumbdwn:
> 
> ...


Well you obviously have more experience in the area than me, so I´ll succumb.

All I know is that we´ve had repainted and repaired cars in our family for many years of ownership and have never been able to tell which part was repainted and which wasn´t. Except for cases where rust appeared in areas that still had original factory paint (Popular on some generation VW´s) but never on repainted areas. 
Depending on manufacturer and model year, I´d say that sometimes factory paintjobs are far from first rate. While in principle, as you rightly stated, the factory has a chance to do a better job via robotic automation and cleaner environment, they also are more prone to try to cut costs as much as they can. Spraying the thinnest possible paint, looking for the shortest possible drying time etc.
I still think a good painter CAN put on a paint job as well as the factroy, maybe even better. Wether the average repair paint job will be as good as factory paint certainly is debatable.


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## TJS///M3 (Sep 13, 2004)

Well, I was wondering how long until Stuka added some comments to this, but I wanted to say one other thing.

All of you saying that the dealer is a business like any other and accidents happen all the time. First off, he left his car in THEIR care to perform a service. He was not in the drivers seat when said accident happened. A representative of the dealer was. Tell me why he should absorb any monetary loss associated with said accident? Imho, they are fully responsible for the damage. Now, had he been driving at the time, and had someone crash into him, yes, I would agree that full vehicle replacement is probably a ridiculous thing to push for. However, this is a case of the dealer trying to minimize their loss as a result of poor judgement on the part of one of their employees. I dont think that pushing for a new X3 at invoice, and full value on a trade in is out of the question. "adc" should not be losing anything at all in this matter.

And.. PALELLA, this statement: "I have fixed cars witf over $25,000 in damage that the dealer couldn't tell were in such a major collision." only means to me that you fooled the dealer. Yes, the dealer still knew there had been paint/repair work, but not to the extent which you knew. Advantage you.


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## cattman (Dec 1, 2005)

The dealer has insurance for "loss" such as this. Just as they have insurance in case your car, while in their care, was damaged in a fire. Bottom line: deal ONLY with the owner of the franchise, and politely request that you deserve a new car, as exact to yours as possible. Remind him that their insurance will cover it, and it's not like selling a car at a loss. Believe me, it is a reasonable request, that any business owner worth a darn would honor.


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

MrAirbags said:


> Why on earth would he get HIS insurance involved?!?!


Paying the $500 deductible would still be cheaper than selling it to the dealership at retail and buying a new one at invoice, as you suggested.


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

adc said:


> The only hard numbers I have right now is the *US invoice* cost for a replacement - $39k and the *retail* value of my car (in outstanding condition) - $38k.


I don't know where you got those numbers, but if they are realistic, it would be simple to get the dealer to agree to pay the $1K difference. It'd be less than their deductible and both parties would be happy.
I'm affraid your car is not going to seel for $38K, even though it's only 4 months old.


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## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

Boile said:


> I don't know where you got those numbers, but if they are realistic, it would be simple to get the dealer to agree to pay the $1K difference. It'd be less than their deductible and both parties would be happy.
> I'm affraid your car is not going to seel for $38K, even though it's only 4 months old.


There is also the 5% CSI money in play here so you should be able to get an even trade if not better. By upfront and blunt about the CSI money so that they do not try to pull any stunts.

What are the buyback rules in your state? In some cases if the car becomes a buyback and you get a replacement vehicle you may not owe use tax (sales tax) on the new vehicle as long as they are substantially identical.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

It was funny reading some of these posts...

"The dealer giving the guy a new X3, and paying the taxes on a new vehicle, hire lawyer, diminished value compensation, 3 grand of free stuff from the dealer".

I don't know what dream world some of you live in, yes it sucks, but it was an accident it happens thousands of times every day.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> It was funny reading some of these posts...
> 
> "The dealer giving the guy a new X3, and paying the taxes on a new vehicle, hire lawyer, diminished value compensation, 3 grand of free stuff from the dealer".
> 
> I don't know what dream world some of you live in, yes it sucks, but it was an accident it happens thousands of times every day.


Agreed. Reminds me of those rap stars on Cribs that wear t-shirts and socks once then throw them away.

And I say Humans can and do better paint jobs than robots, it just takes a lot longer.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

If you can get more compensation than repair costs from the dealer all the more power to you. Just don't think it is going to happen.


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> It was funny reading some of these posts...
> 
> "The dealer giving the guy a new X3, and paying the taxes on a new vehicle, hire lawyer, diminished value compensation, 3 grand of free stuff from the dealer".
> 
> I don't know what dream world some of you live in, yes it sucks, but it was an accident it happens thousands of times every day.


I knew there would be posts like this; I am surprised it took this long. 

Accidents do happen every day yes. In addition, I think most people here are not in the camp of bending the dealer over, and most don't have the juvenile (and wrong) mindset of $3K of free dealer accessories and other simply unreasonable requests.

However, fair IS fair. I think it is a VERY reasonable request for the dealer to give this guy a generous trade in allowance on his X3 and to sell (read: NOT GIVE, not take a HUGE LOSS), but SELL him an X3 at the lowest possible pricepoint that they feel is fair and they can agree upon.

What is so wrong or unfair about that? :dunno:


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

MrAirbags said:


> I knew there would be posts like this; I am surprised it took this long.
> 
> Accidents do happen every day yes. In addition, I think most people here are not in the camp of bending the dealer over, and most don't have the juvenile (and wrong) mindset of $3K of free dealer accessories and other simply unreasonable requests.
> 
> ...


Like I said in my last post if he can get the dealer to do that, good for him.

I just don't see it happening, they screw people on car deals everyday what makes you think they are going to go beyond the insurance standards for compensation.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

misterlance said:


> Agreed. Reminds me of those rap stars on Cribs that wear t-shirts and socks once then throw them away.
> 
> And I say Humans can and do better paint jobs than robots, it just takes a lot longer.


Human can, but those people work at Aston Martin (cars there are manually sprayed by master painters, because you can have your car painted in any custom color). 

The average shop painters don't get pay enough to give a rats arse about your paint, and even one employed by a good shop cannot compare with the factory stuff. Put it this way, good painters can replicate orange peel, but they can't control the thickness like a robot can, and the paint gauge will always know that it's a respray because it's thicker.

To top it off, you have to blend it. It means, you have to spray adjacent undamaged panels to blend the paint.

Tell me, how many shops/painters can strip the paint in those area so that when they are blending, the thickness comes out the same.

And we have not even take the lack of chemical treatment into account.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> Like I said in my last post if he can get the dealer to do that, good for him.
> 
> I just don't see it happening, they screw people on car deals everyday what makes you think they are going to go beyond the insurance standards for compensation.


Remember how long it took Savage to make whole on the situation, even with the assistance of an attorney?

I don't think adc stands a good chance of getting a new car at invoice, and a retail blue book buy back of the car plus some rental fees.

Fair you say? But in my case, the dealer was dragged there kicking and screaming.


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## *Paul (Dec 13, 2005)

Just saw this post, a similar thing happened to me when I took my 2003 Golf into a SoCal dealer for a warranty repair at only 5000 miles. I had a bad feeling when I left my car there and sure enough two hours later they called and said "we verified the problem you mentioned, and by the way we had an accident in the car." I was absolutely furious - it was clear to me that the mechanic had been speeding through a neighboring parking lot. Another car stuck him as he drove through across an access lane without pausing. Very similar damage to what you have - rear axle was bent in addition.

I went through the same issues and questions - only difference is that being a VW dealer they are typically extremely rude to their customers, and they didn't disappoint in that regard.

Bottom line is this - it's an "accident" as far as anyone's liabilty is concerned. They will have your car fixed and provide you with a loaner. The idea is that your car will be restored to "as new" and you will be in the same position as you were when you first entered the dealership. The insurance company told me they do not cover loss of value as the repair should not be detectable, nor reduce the value. The final bodywork and paint was very good, and the car was as "good as new" structurally.

All you can do (without suing them) is ensure the bodyshop is using new parts, and that all the parts they bill the insurance for actually get installed. This is where I believe the bodyshop will try to shortchange you to improve their profits. They will charge time for parts to be removed for painting, and then just mask them off. Obviously you will check the paint match and overall quality of work.

The dealer is likely pretty much out of the picture, other than paying for the loan car. In my case the bodyshop did all the work as the dealer's billing rate is too high for the insurance company.

Don't accept the car until the repair is undetectable by eye. That was the premise of the repair. As was pointed out before, even new cars get minor body damage, then are repaired, and it is not usually disclosed to the new owner. This should not show up on Carfax.

The hardest thing is to get over it mentally. Drive their loaner for the month and beat the living sh*t out it - (helped me anyway.) Be polite to the dealer and they will be polite to you, it's not going to do you any good to get mad. If you are not happy driving the repaired car, trade it in and insist on book value.

My guess is that after a few months you will forget most of what happened. Hope this is helpful.

-Paul


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## mapsbmw (Jan 16, 2006)

So What Happened??


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

mapsbmw said:


> So What Happened??


I was planning on updating this saga in a few days when I - hopefully - get the car back.

But if everything turns out right, then here is what will have happened:

1. The dealer agreed to use a similar car (05 model in the exact same color combination) that they have on the lot, and basically swap the doors out. This way they get to repair the dented doors however they want, and I get doors with OEM paint and no more than 1-2 months difference in age.

2. They will handle any repairs (paint, straighten) that may be needed to the rocker panels, under the plastic covers.

3. I get an X3 loaner for the duration.

4. I get free aluminum running boards installed.

This works out OK for me, since I didn't like much any of the alternatives. A deal for a new car would have involved too many compromises on both sides. :dunno:

But again, I'll post the final word when I get the car back.

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

Ahem... was this a VA, DC or MD dealer? I just don't want to inadvertantly buy a used X3 with your old doors on it...


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Salvator said:


> Ahem... was this a VA, DC or MD dealer? I just don't want to inadvertantly buy a used X3 with your old doors on it...


1. It is VOB. Nothing in this deal is hush-hush or hidden.

2. When buying a used car, a reputable and honest dealer should inform the buyer of any prior damage/repair history that they are aware of.

3. If they don't do this routinely, then you can never be sure of what exactly you are buying. If you are worried about this - as I will be from now on - I'd take any potential contended to a bodyshop to get it inspected before purchase.

4. BMWNA repairs body damage at VPC. You can never be sure that your brand-new BMW did not have any body repair, even at 5mi on the odo. :dunno:

5. I will disclose these repairs to any potential buyer of my X3, come selling time. Even if the doors have OEM paint on them. :dunno:

6. The ordeal is not over yet. I will have to verify that indeed the doors were swapped with new ones, after I get the car back. 

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## gos (Dec 22, 2005)

Bruce said:


> It is called subrogation. It is when you don't agree. You let your insurance company deal with their insurance or them to get the loss covered.
> 
> My example: a tow truck driver back into my car. They had me go to 2 of thier body shops, I went to mine. Estimates were way different. They drug their feet. I went ahead and turned it into my insurance and had the car fixed. I paid the deductible that my insurance required and let the insurance deal with it. In the end I got a check from their insurance for my deductible.


I have always gone straight to my own insurance company first. My company wants to help me (unlike the other driver's company that ALWAYS drags their feet), I pay my deductable, and get on with my life. Once they settle/sue/whatever the other company or driver and get their money, they send me a check for my full deductable. I've never had it take more than 3-4 months.

--gos


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

gos said:


> I have always gone straight to my own insurance company first. My company wants to help me (unlike the other driver's company that ALWAYS drags their feet), I pay my deductable, and get on with my life. Once they settle/sue/whatever the other company or driver and get their money, they send me a check for my full deductable. I've never had it take more than 3-4 months.
> 
> --gos


The problem here was that I did not want to have the doors fixed and repainted. Non-OEM paint can easily be detected. I reasoned that a set of doors from a similar aged car would cancel the diminished value of the car come re-sell time. :dunno:

Time will prove me right or wrong.

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

adc said:


> 1. It is VOB. Nothing in this deal is hush-hush or hidden.


Phew! Another good reason to stick with Sterling!



adc said:


> 2. When buying a used car, a reputable and honest dealer should inform the buyer of any prior damage/repair history that they are aware of.


I know two people personally who purchased vehicles from reputable, honest dealers, and were not told of damage to the vehicle prior to their purchase... They found out later when they had the vehicle in the body shop for unrelated repairs... Unfortunately, it's not something that can be counted on anymore...


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

*The conclusion of this saga*

Well it has finally come to an end.

The dealer lived up to his promises, after a little bit of wrangling and lots and lots of patience. They swapped the doors for a set of undamaged ones from a car of similar mileage and age and to my untrained eye the paint matches perfectly.

I wanted this solution to retain factory paint and unblemished doors on the car, mainly for future resale value.

As per our agreement, the dealer also installed the aluminum running boards free of charge (a $550 catalog value plus installation).

I took some quick pics in a hurry, please forgive the quality as I'm running a bit of a cold and could not stay outside long enough...

Feel free to ask any questions, I didn't sign any disclaimer for silence. 

(In a side not to this all, after the X3 3.5 Step non-SP that we had for the duration, our car feels positively like a race car. :rofl: )

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

adc said:


> Feel free to ask any questions, I didn't sign any disclaimer for silence.


How do you know they swapped the doors and not just painted the original ones?


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Boile said:


> How do you know they swapped the doors and not just painted the original ones?


I suppose I can double check by going to an independent bodyshop and pay them to run a paint meter over the doors. :dunno: I'm probably going to do this in a few days...

But I got an agreement signed by them in which they wrote down the VIN of the donor vehicle. I doubt they would expose themselves like that if they didn't swap the doors for real.

(Plus the front door has the smallest nick in the corner - I doubt they would have puhed the realism that far... :rofl: ).

adc
03 330 ZHP
05 X3 3.0


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## ___lk___ (Dec 21, 2001)

Boile said:


> How do you know they swapped the doors and not just painted the original ones?


a car's VIN s/b stamped on the doors. might be hard to find it, but it's probably there someplace.


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

___lk___ said:


> a car's VIN s/b stamped on the doors. might be hard to find it, but it's probably there someplace.


Can you prove what you said?
I don't think the assembly line, at the time the door is made (that's when stamping happens), would know which car (VIN) the door will belong to. At most, a VIN plaque or decal could be glued to the door after it's already on the car. But that should be easy to get rid of. 
If that were true, wouldn't a car with not matching VIN parts be worse (resale wise) than one with slightly thicker paint than OEM?


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## James (Jun 30, 2004)

Boile said:


> Can you prove what you said?
> I don't think the assembly line, at the time the door is made (that's when stamping happens), would know which car (VIN) the door will belong to. At most, a VIN plaque or decal could be glued to the door after it's already on the car. But that should be easy to get rid of.
> If that were true, wouldn't a car with not matching VIN parts be worse (resale wise) than one with slightly thicker paint than OEM?


When I was importing a car to CA one of the requirements was that the vin number had to be stamped in 12 places on the car. I'm not sure what the requirements are for other states (and I never got the VIN's stamped and no one seemed to care). Anyway, it's plausable that the door is one of the 12 places if _adc_ lives in such a state.


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