# Removing TOUGH tree sap



## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

I am asking now for some very specific opinions on removing very tough tree sap, obviously without damaging the finish. The question of tree sap removal has been answered by a number of you and I appreciate your responses, but this is not an easy sap to remove. I actually have what I consider very very hard to remove hardened sap on two cars and have already tried 3 products on it and it is still there and I don’t want to rub too hard – since unfortunately I needed to park both cars outside for a few nights:
Turtle Wax Bug and Tar Remover (liquid in can)
Blue Coral Bug and Tar Remover (gel)
Stoner's Tarminator (in spray can)

I am a novice when it comes to cleaning/detailing – compared to members of this forum. I really need to ask what to try next and what will definitively not mar the finish. One car is almost a year old with black metallic paint – the other is a few years old with lighter color. I have already seen that I have rubbed too hard to remove some sap and have seen some swirls and some dulling.

So, what should I try next to remove the sap:
1.Clay bar – any chance at all of damaging the finish by a novice?
2.Some type of diminishing abrasive such as a swirl remover – I already have Meguiar’s #9, 2.0 – but haven’t used it
3. A wax remover 
4. Some other product

All responses will be greatly appreciated.


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## guitarman (Mar 29, 2004)

Haven't we been through this in another thread? Perhaps you should take your car to a professional detailer. :dunno:


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Have I asked this before?*



guitarman said:


> Haven't we been through this in another thread? Perhaps you should take your car to a professional detailer. :dunno:


Actually in the other thread I was concentrating on wax and got a few opinions on removing the tree sap. Subsequently, I have already tried 3 different Bug/Tar removers to no avail, so I am trying to point out that this is real stubborn stuff that won't come off easily. If you'd prefer, I can post to the other thread. I certainly have listened to everyone's suggestions, but I just don't want to make a mistake since this is not fresh tree sap.

I thought that if I posted with "tree sap" in the title, some others with the same problem may read this.

I'm still not certain about how to interpret your comment. A "professional detailer"? Why would I spend all of this effort trying to solve my problems and then go a "professional detailer"? Also, would they do a better/job and be as careful with my paint job? I think given the right approach, I can most likely solve the problem. I just tend to be very careful and don't want to make a mistake. I am planning to apply Klasse AIO next week, followed by s-100, and want the car ready when I do so. So, I do listen to what people have said.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

It may be a multi step process for you and it looks like you have it right, even the order :thumbup: Good luck!


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Thanks...*



F1Crazy said:


> It may be a multi step process for you and it looks like you have it right, even the order :thumbup: Good luck!


If I haven't said so before, I want you to know that I have read and re-read each of your posts carefully and appreciate the time and effort you have put into answering my questions. On the recommendation of you and others in this forum, I have ordered the Klasse AIO, and as you know, I would have preferred to have purchased the item in a store, but ordered this strictly on what I think is very good advice from you and other members of this forum. I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the product.

Thanks!


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

The clay, polish, and AIO should do it. 

They only other step you may want to add would be a wax on top of the AIO to add more shine and depth to the finish.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Polish?*



Artslinger said:


> The clay, polish, and AIO should do it.
> 
> They only other step you may want to add would be a wax on top of the AIO to add more shine and depth to the finish.


I thought I would:
Wash
Clay bar as necessary
AIO
S-100 wax

Should I polish - if so, when and why?


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

rocky said:


> I thought I would:
> Wash
> Clay bar as necessary
> AIO
> ...


Polish helps minimize swirls but it would remove any stains left after the sap is removed.

I would do a small area with the clay and AIO and see if it removes all traces of the sap before adding another step with the polish. And if you do use a polish use it between the clay and AIO.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

If you don't have a buffer I don't know if it would be a good idea to use a polish. With the clay, AIO, wax and the time required to polish you'd be one tired guy. You may want to consider spending the money and have a pro do the job.


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

Hi again,

I've never had a sap issue (except myself being a sap - ha!) but I suggested S100 Total Cycle Cleaner in your other thread ( http://www.bikedepot.net/s1geltocycl.html ) because I thought it would be the best product you could buy retail for that purpose, it's supposed to be exactly the same as P21S High Performance Total Auto Wash ( http://autopia-carcare.com/p21-130.html ) but about $8 for a 500 ml pump bottle instead of having to buy twice as much at twice the price for the P21S auto version.

Here's a link to the Autopia reviews on bug/tar/sap removers including Stoner and P21S.( http://reviews.autopia.org/censura.php?cmd=browse&category_id=14 ) Looks like people didn't seem to think much of Stoner and if you've tried 3 products already and none worked, I think you're stuck claying or going the alcohol/solvent route suggested by others.

Best of luck with all this.


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## thrillhill (Aug 21, 2002)

if the tree sap is from an evergreen (small, brown lumps) clay bar won't touch it. Rubbing alcohol and elbow grease is the best combo I have found. (My wife seems to park her M3 under every evergreen tree she can find  )

follow this with regular (your choice) wax treatment


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

1Dreamer said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I've never had a sap issue (except myself being a sap - ha!) but I suggested S100 Total Cycle Cleaner in your other thread ( http://www.bikedepot.net/s1geltocycl.html ) because I thought it would be the best product you could buy retail for that purpose, it's supposed to be exactly the same as P21S High Performance Total Auto Wash ( http://autopia-carcare.com/p21-130.html ) but about $8 for a 500 ml pump bottle instead of having to buy twice as much at twice the price for the P21S auto version.
> 
> ...


Yeah I read that the S100 Total Cycle Cleaner will remove tree sap it might be something to try.


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> Yeah I read that the S100 Total Cycle Cleaner will remove tree sap it might be something to try.


Yeah, I was thinking it was his best shot short of clay/pure solvents/alcohol that he could pick up when he was picking up the wax, but if he's actually bought three different products already he might not want to buy a 4th. It's supposed to work well though and some think it's also the same thing as the "Porsche Tequipment" private labeled for Porshe. http://reviews.autopia.org/censura.php?cmd=details&itemid=108


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Will keep trying...*



1Dreamer said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I've never had a sap issue (except myself being a sap - ha!) but I suggested S100 Total Cycle Cleaner in your other thread ( http://www.bikedepot.net/s1geltocycl.html ) because I thought it would be the best product you could buy retail for that purpose, it's supposed to be exactly the same as P21S High Performance Total Auto Wash ( http://autopia-carcare.com/p21-130.html ) but about $8 for a 500 ml pump bottle instead of having to buy twice as much at twice the price for the P21S auto version.
> 
> ...


Yes, I read what you said, but actually I stopped by a local store that had "Tarminator" for $3.95, so I thought I'd give it a try. Next I guess I will try to find the P21S or S100 cleaner at a bike or motorcycle shop, since it is entirely possible that the sap may be as described above, in which case, the clay bar may be a waste of effort. Yet, rubbing alcohol and concerted rubbing as described may not be the best approach for a reasonably new car.

As the post said above:


thrillhill said:


> if the tree sap is from an evergreen (small, brown lumps) clay bar won't touch it. Rubbing alcohol and elbow grease is the best combo I have found. (My wife seems to park her M3 under every evergreen tree she can find  )
> 
> follow this with regular (your choice) wax treatment


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## guitarman (Mar 29, 2004)

rocky said:


> I'm still not certain about how to interpret your comment. A "professional detailer"? Why would I spend all of this effort trying to solve my problems and then go a "professional detailer"? Also, would they do a better/job and be as careful with my paint job? I think given the right approach, I can most likely solve the problem.


You've tried several products that should have worked to remove the sap, but to no avail. Either you can keep experimenting, or take the car to a professional who does this kind of thing for a living. I too would be afraid of using anything that might permenently damage the paint.

Since you've got the Klasse AIO on order, perhaps you could ask the detailer to just remove the sap and then you can follow up with the Klasse and S-100 yourself.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*May give it a try*



1Dreamer said:


> Yeah, I was thinking it was his best shot short of clay/pure solvents/alcohol that he could pick up when he was picking up the wax, but if he's actually bought three different products already he might not want to buy a 4th. It's supposed to work well though and some think it's also the same thing as the "Porsche Tequipment" private labeled for Porshe. http://reviews.autopia.org/censura.php?cmd=details&itemid=108


Well, let me see if I can find it tomorrow at an m-cycle or bicycle shop.

Thanks.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Detailer versus doing it yourself*



guitarman said:


> You've tried several products that should have worked to remove the sap, but to no avail. Either you can keep experimenting, or take the car to a professional who does this kind of thing for a living. I too would be afraid of using anything that might permenently damage the paint.
> 
> Since you've got the Klasse AIO on order, perhaps you could ask the detailer to just remove the sap and then you can follow up with the Klasse and S-100 yourself.


This would mean I'd need to then do a search to locate a reputable detailer in the area. Next, what would happen if they ended up taking off my paint, or scratching the finish, or making swirls, and made things worse?

I honestly think that the people in this forum are a wealth of information and have tried many different approaches and even though a detailer is a "professional", does that mean that he/she will know more than the people in this forum? Isn't the whole purpose of a forum to exchange knowledge and information? If someone works on his/her car for "x" amount of years and "y" hours per year, they then become an expert on the proper way to detail that car. Isn't that what being "professional" means? Or am I missing something?

I don't think removing some bits of tree sap would require a herculean effort. I'm just looking for the right approach.


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## TOGWT (May 26, 2004)

*Tree Resin (Sap):*

Tree Resin (Sap):
(Appears like a dark brown/ red coloured surface mark) some of the most common resinous tree sap types are: White Pine, Maple, Oak, Popular, and Blue Spruce, none of which are water soluble, the acidic content of the sap will etch the paint surface, causing a concave surface.

These can be removed by using detailer's clay to remove any hardened surface deposits and then using either Isopropyl alcohol (ISP) or if that doesn't remove it use a machine polish, Iz einzett TM Metallic Polish or Iz einzett TM Paint Polish and a cutting (LC Orange or Yellow) foam pad (speed # 4) to level the surface, reapply surface protection once spots have been removed (to remove sap etching from glass see Water Spots)

Factors as to the amount of time it takes to remove sap and what damage it has caused are dependent on temperature and time the sap has been on the paint surface. Be careful and take your time removing it, remember always let the products do the work for you.

Tree sap that is still soft can be removed by soaking with Isopropyl Alcohol (or Stoner's Terminator) wet the area with the product and allows it to remain on the surface for 3-5 minutes, then wipe with soft dry towel. For tree sap that has hardened, carefully scrape the top of the spot off with a plastic razor blade to expose the softer sap inside.

Soak a towel with the solvent placing it over the sap and let soak for 10-minutes, repeat in order for the solvents to break down the sap, once it's removed re-apply sealant / wax protection of your choice. 
Some saps will lift and crack the paint, this damage will require refinishing. Turpentine is made from tree resins, in severe cases it can be used to break down the resin in tree sap, use as a last resort only and use sparingly and do not rub hard and give it some time to work.
JonM


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## seadzz (Jun 5, 2005)

Seems tree sap is not really easy to remove if it has "set" on the car.

I found this link which you may find helpful:

http://www.bmwworld.com/repairs/detailing/tree_sap.htm

Not sure about some of the "organic solvents" i.e. mayo and bacon grease mentioned in the link but most of the others should be of help.

sdz


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*More things to try...*



seadzz said:


> Seems tree sap is not really easy to remove if it has "set" on the car.
> 
> I found this link which you may find helpful:
> 
> ...


Yes, thanks, I did search and find this link, as well as some others. This is, in fact, hardened sap, that may have "set" on the paint. The reason why I am so focused on removing it is that I am planning to use Klasse AIO and the S100 on the car this week and want to prep the paint before, since I'm certain that I shouldn't apply the Klasse OVER sap. I'm not sure if the bacon grease, or mayo would be damaging. I can't see how. I have also heard of using margarine. So, here is what I may try, in terms of what I have found in searches and in this forum:
Mineral Spirits
(I just can't get used to the idea of using mineral spirits to remove the sap - I would think logically it would break down the clear coat., so I think I will need to exclude this.)
Margarine 
Clay Magic clay bar
S100 (P21S) wash
3M Adhesive and Wax remover

Again, I certainly appreciate your comments.


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

I know this is going to sound totally silly, but I was thinking about this yesterday after I posted. Have you ever tried eating anything with chocolate in it when you have gum in your mouth? It breaks the gum down so it totally falls apart and almost dissolves. I'm wondering what would happen if you tried rubbing softened chocolate on it? I seriously think I'd try it. 

I'm not sure if you have tiny specs of sap all over or a few bigger droplets, but I get the impression it's the latter and if it is and you haven't already done this, make sure you try heating the sap with either a hair dryer or a hot wet towel and then scraping off the top outer hardened "shell" of the droplets if you can without digging down to the surface. Then I'd try the tissue method where you soak a piece of tissue in one of the many sap removers you now own (ha!) and lay it on top and let it soak on top of the droplet for 5 to 10 minutes before trying to wipe or rub to remove it. 

I don't know why I've become so interested in this, but it's almost as if it's become a mission where I'm intent to see you remove this sap somehow if it kills me! Ha! I wish I was there so I could work on it for you. I'm not a pro by any means, but I really enjoy this stuff for some reason and love sprucing up my parents' and friends' cars and seeing their reaction. In fact, I have a friend coming over in the morning and we're going to detail his 330i. 

Be sure and let us know if and when you removed it and how. By the time you figure all this out I think you'll be ready to start a detailing business for all your neighbors.  Good luck!


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

1Dreamer said:


> I know this is going to sound totally silly, but I was thinking about this yesterday after I posted. Have you ever tried eating anything with chocolate in it when you have gum in your mouth? It breaks the gum down so it totally falls apart and almost dissolves. I'm wondering what would happen if you tried rubbing softened chocolate on it? I seriously think I'd try it.
> 
> I'm not sure if you have tiny specs of sap all over or a few bigger droplets, but I get the impression it's the latter and if it is and you haven't already done this, make sure you try heating the sap with either a hair dryer or a hot wet towel and then scraping off the top outer hardened "shell" of the droplets if you can without digging down to the surface. Then I'd try the tissue method where you soak a piece of tissue in one of the many sap removers you now own (ha!) and lay it on top and let it soak on top of the droplet for 5 to 10 minutes before trying to wipe or rub to remove it.
> 
> ...


I know the feeling of wanting to do something, and knowing if you were only there, you possibly could.

Well, I may have the clay by tomorrow and will try that next I think. I tried a really hot towel and that did nothing. Hair dryer - I may get too carried away and burn the paint. I think I will try the soaked tissue. You know, from the odor of the Bug and Tar removers I have, I'm willing to bet that the contents are pretty much the same, but packaged in different ways. I just hate to be putting the Klasse AIO over the sap.

At 3000 miles away, I think it's not that convenient for us to do this together, but I appreciate the thought.

After getting into this recently, I have washed the car like 3 times in the past week and it really does look nicer. It is that black metallic paint. I can see that the wheels will be a problem though.

I'll let you know.

Thanks.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Prep-all*

Picked up the Clay Magic at the store and also picked up a can of "Prep-all" which I use for other general cleaning. Noticed on the can that it can be used for tree sap removal.
Here is a link showing a photo of the can.
http://www.crashsupply.com/cgi-bin/csupply/klegvoc363gr.html

Does anyone have any experience with this product and is it safe on clearcoat?


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## Z4phillygirl (May 1, 2005)

1Dreamer said:


> I know this is going to sound totally silly, but I was thinking about this yesterday after I posted. Have you ever tried eating anything with chocolate in it when you have gum in your mouth? It breaks the gum down so it totally falls apart and almost dissolves. I'm wondering what would happen if you tried rubbing softened chocolate on it? I seriously think I'd try it.
> 
> I don't know why I've become so interested in this, but it's almost as if it's become a mission where I'm intent to see you remove this sap somehow if it kills me! Ha! I wish I was there so I could work on it for you. I'm not a pro by any means, *but I really enjoy this stuff for some reason and love sprucing up my parents' and friends' cars and seeing their reaction. In fact, I have a friend coming over in the morning and we're going to detail his 330i.  *


:wave: Um... hello.. can I be your friend? Care to wax my new car for me? :angel: I'll even take a picture of you in a sexy pose in front of my hood and post it all over bimmerfest for the guys to drool over.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You are one funny character, dreamer. Have fun detailing the 330i on Sunday.


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

Z4phillygirl said:


> :wave: Um... hello.. can I be your friend? Care to wax my new car for me? :angel: I'll even take a picture of you in a sexy pose in front of my hood and post it all over bimmerfest for the guys to drool over. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> You are one funny character, dreamer. Have fun detailing the 330i on Sunday.


I'm sure the gang here would love to see those pictures. :yikes: Admit it, you just want to see me scantily clad on the hood of your car. I've met your type and I'm not falling for that old trick again. :rofl:

Yes, I can be a character. I have a gardener so I don't have to do any yard work and I'd even take the elevator up to my car in the parking structure at the Sport Club Irvine so I didn't have to walk the stairs after working out, but this will be two weekends in a row I've done mini details on my friends' cars.


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## my_e36 (Feb 26, 2005)

just wondering, would wet sanding helps?


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## guitarman (Mar 29, 2004)

my_e36 said:


> just wondering, would wet sanding helps?


Good question, but my guess is that there is no way in hell Rocky is going to wet sand his vehicle.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

rocky said:


> Picked up the Clay Magic at the store and also picked up a can of "Prep-all" which I use for other general cleaning. Noticed on the can that it can be used for tree sap removal.
> Here is a link showing a photo of the can.
> http://www.crashsupply.com/cgi-bin/csupply/klegvoc363gr.html
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with this product and is it safe on clearcoat?


I think products like Prep-all or Prepsol are used by body shops to clean the paint prior to painting, I think they are clearcoat safe as long as used with care. Just use your imagination.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

my_e36 said:


> just wondering, would wet sanding helps?


Wet sanding would help in extreme situation when everything else fails but what you wanna do is to lightly hit the spots with 1500-2000grit sand paper just to remove the hardened "shell" and then use a solvent to remove the rest.

I would not attempt wet sanding without a machine, RO or rotary to remove sanding marks.


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## johnnygraphic (Jun 26, 2004)

At this point, he's got a ton of money into this venture with products and time. I certainly hope that you can get the sap off of your car! I've been fortunate. Whenever I parked under a tree & got sap on it, I've always been able to wash it fairly quickly & the sap usually comes right off. 

Perhaps, if you can take a photo of the offending sap, someone here can give you more detailed advice? If your car is 'peppered' with sap, it just might be a different approach vs a few big blobs.

My recommendation at this point is to wash and then clay with an agressive clay bar (meguiars has one). 

If this doesn't work, I would try using a Porter Cable Random Orbital (7424) with a yellow pad and some light polish (Menzerna Final Polish). I would try it on one of the more problem areas first to see if it works. If not, try a different polish with a little more of an agressive cut to it. (Menzerna Intensive Polish). Take your time, don't force the machine into the paint. If you do, you run the risk of heating up the pad and then burning the paint. It isn't rocket science, but the acquisition of all of these products can easily run you into the $250 to $300 range. (I've done it!).

No matter what approach you take, once you've done any of the above you MUST wax your car since you now have bare paint exposed to the elements.

Perhaps you can see if any of your fellow BMW-Auto-Detailing-Brethren in your neighborhood has a few hours to spare & if they'd like to help you out. 

Otherwise, it just might be a good idea to take your car to a professional detailer who has likely the experience and the products etc to make your baby shine like new!

Johnny


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## Z4phillygirl (May 1, 2005)

1Dreamer said:


> I'm sure the gang here would love to see those pictures. :yikes: Admit it, you just want to see me scantily clad on the hood of your car. I've met your type and I'm not falling for that old trick again. :rofl:
> 
> Yes, I can be a character. I have a gardener so I don't have to do any yard work and I'd even take the elevator up to my car in the parking structure at the Sport Club Irvine so I didn't have to walk the stairs after working out, but this will be two weekends in a row I've done mini details on my friends' cars.


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Well.... I do take the stairs after my workout and I have no yard to speak of, but I still don't wash my own car. :eeps: I want to get it waxed - it's been 3 months since I got the dang thing and I keep thinking it needs to be detailed, but I have yet to find a decent detailer around here. I don't mind doing it myself, but I don't even have the faintest clue on how to get started. While my dad taught me how to change the oil, a flat tire and a battery when I was a kid, he never did show me how to wax a car. And, please don't tell me to read some of these points & tips here. I have no idea what the difference between Zaino or clay or any of these other "detailing" words.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

johnnygraphic said:


> At this point, he's got a ton of money into this venture with products and time. I certainly hope that you can get the sap off of your car! I've been fortunate. Whenever I parked under a tree & got sap on it, I've always been able to wash it fairly quickly & the sap usually comes right off.
> 
> Perhaps, if you can take a photo of the offending sap, someone here can give you more detailed advice? If your car is 'peppered' with sap, it just might be a different approach vs a few big blobs.
> 
> ...


Actually, not that much money invested yet, but much time searching through posts and garnering what I could about sap removal. ( I'm wondering if I should post the links here of everything I found on sap removal, since opinions seem to vary.) As far as time, probably just a couple hours re-washing and trying out the Bug & Tar Removers.

The car is not really peppered with sap - rather it is isolated to a few stubborn spots that won't come off with any reasonable rubbing. Two spots are like about possibly ¼" and one extends for about ½" but is "flattened" out.

My next step will be using the clay bar. I now have the Clay Magic - I thought this would be the least aggressive to use, and was recommended by many forum members. I was also thinking of trying to hit the top of the sap with the Meguiar's #9 Swirl remover to see if that "breaks" the sap and then I can try something else once it is broken up bit more. In addition, I noticed 3 really good (ie. bad) swirls that I created after too aggressive rubbing to get off some sap, and may need to use the swirl remover on these.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Clay bar question*

I have another question about using a clay bar and since I have once been "chastised" about cross-posting, I'm wondering if this is where I should ask it.

Looking at the "flow" of some of these threads, it looks like people tend to post within a current thread, even if the topic is a bit off the thread.

So, here goes, and let me know if I should post somewhere else for this.

Can I use the clay bar to get off the grime and dirt from the plastic bumper and molding parts on this car or others - is it safe? I have seen that


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## thrillhill (Aug 21, 2002)

rocky said:


> (snip) that the sap may be as described above, in which case, the clay bar may be a waste of effort. Yet, rubbing alcohol and concerted rubbing as described may not be the best approach for a reasonably new car.
> 
> As the post said above:


Why do you ask for help, and then reject answers. WTF is wrong with you?? This is the method that is taught by Mercedes Benz when dealing with tree saps, and it is used on brand new cars, as well as "reasonably new" cars :tsk:


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## johnnygraphic (Jun 26, 2004)

thrillhill said:


> Why do you ask for help, and then reject answers. WTF is wrong with you?? This is the method that is taught by Mercedes Benz when dealing with tree saps, and it is used on brand new cars, as well as "reasonably new" cars :tsk:


Hey Thrill, you may need to just "chill" a little. I think our good buddy Rocky is just a little on the cautious side and has already done some damage to his car and doesn't want to do any more.

Rocky-As for clay, I wouldn't use it on plastic, as it's intended purpose is for removing tiny particulate matter from paint. In order to clean plastic trim mouldings (I'm assuming they're black plastic & not painted), you can use any of the plastic/vinyl cleaners/conditioners out there. 303 Aerospace has a decent product, meguiars, Pinnacle and I'm sure others will chime in with their recommendations.

For some minor swirls you may have put in the paint, I wouldn't worry too much. You can always take your detailing to the next level and perfect your polishing and waxing technique!

I certainly hope you can get the sap off your car. I know how frustrating these types of things can be.

Johnny


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Cautious - yes*



thrillhill said:


> Why do you ask for help, and then reject answers. WTF is wrong with you?? This is the method that is taught by Mercedes Benz when dealing with tree saps, and it is used on brand new cars, as well as "reasonably new" cars :tsk:


WTF is wrong with me? Please "chill". Why the rudeness?

I'm older than I used to be and more cautious then I used to be, and probably a lot older than you. If I hadn't rubbed the sap so hard, I probably wouldn't have gotten the swirls, so, yes, I am being very cautious now. I have gotten a bunch of responses and am considering them. If you can read my posts, I have enumerated what I will try and in what order. I have purchased products strictly on the recommendations of those in this forum. Should I list them? So, how can you possibly say, that I "reject answers".

What is the treatment taught by MB for tree saps? Is this it? You didn't say this in the post.


thrillhill said:


> if the tree sap is from an evergreen (small, brown lumps) clay bar won't touch it. Rubbing alcohol and elbow grease is the best combo I have found.


This is NOT brown sap. It looks clear, since it takes on the color of the car that it is on. Unfortunately it is on TWO cars that I have.


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## my_e36 (Feb 26, 2005)

rocky said:


> This is NOT brown sap. It looks clear, since it takes on the color of the car that it is on. Unfortunately it is on TWO cars that I have.


I am not sure if we are both referring to the same type of sap, I once had some really sticky, jelly, colour-less stuff (like the stuff from your nose when you get a flu, but much stickier), tar remover doesn't work. But then I soak it with undilated heavy duty car wash (or maybe Dawn as well?) for a few minutes, rub it in with finger then rinse and wax then looked new again.

Unfortunately that thing also landed on the windscreen edge rubber and it swelled slightly now. Don't know how to fix that one.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Sounds interesting and safe*



my_e36 said:


> I am not sure if we are both referring to the same type of sap, I once had some really sticky, jelly, colour-less stuff (like the stuff from your nose when you get a flu, but much stickier), tar remover doesn't work. But then I soak it with undilated heavy duty car wash (or maybe Dawn as well?) for a few minutes, rub it in with finger then rinse and wax then looked new again.
> 
> Unfortunately that thing also landed on the windscreen edge rubber and it swelled slightly now. Don't know how to fix that one.


I may give this a try - seems safe.

Thanks.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Progress in removing tree sap and next steps...*



1Dreamer said:


> I know this is going to sound totally silly, but I was thinking about this yesterday after I posted. Have you ever tried eating anything with chocolate in it when you have gum in your mouth? It breaks the gum down so it totally falls apart and almost dissolves. I'm wondering what would happen if you tried rubbing softened chocolate on it? I seriously think I'd try it.
> 
> I'm not sure if you have tiny specs of sap all over or a few bigger droplets, but I get the impression it's the latter and if it is and you haven't already done this, make sure you try heating the sap with either a hair dryer or a hot wet towel and then scraping off the top outer hardened "shell" of the droplets if you can without digging down to the surface. Then I'd try the tissue method where you soak a piece of tissue in one of the many sap removers you now own (ha!) and lay it on top and let it soak on top of the droplet for 5 to 10 minutes before trying to wipe or rub to remove it.
> 
> ...


In case anyone is interested, I finally did try the rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl alcohol) on the sap. From the smell and texture with fresh sap, it looks like pine sap.

I first tried it on my gold metallic SUV. Started with a roof spot (inconspicuous place in case I caused a problem.) With very little rubbing, it took off the sap with no apparent remnants. Next, I went to a stubborn spot on the hood. Took it off. From what I could see under garage light, it seemed to cleanly take it off. Today, I went at the black 745. I removed some good sized small marks (probably about 1" by 3/4" total) and some small spots. On the black metallic paint, it did seem to still leave some kind of rings around where the sap was, but the sap is gone. I washed both cars immediately after with Mother's Gold with lots of the Mother's and lots of water, just to be sure I didn't leave any alcohol on the surface. I think generally the rubbing alcohol seems safe, and the sooner it is applied the better, but I think it best to avoid hard rubbing or leaving it on too long.

As an experiment, I saw a fresh spot of pine sap with a small pine needle attached. I first did try Stoner's Tarminator on the fresh sap and Stoner's really does seem very ineffective on pine sap, in case anyone wants to know. I subsequently used the rubbing alcohol on the very fresh sap and it took it off immediately with no rubbing.

Anyone have any idea how to get rid of the rings? I'm not certain if I should try the clay bar on the rings, or possibly Meguiar's Swirl Remover #2, or go directly to the Klasse AIO when it comes in this week. Is it necessary to claybar the entire 745 before the Klasse, or just spot areas - car less than a year old and has been primarily garaged each night, with little mileage.


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## thrillhill (Aug 21, 2002)

Rocky, I apologize for my harsh post, I had read what you posted too quickly, and mis-construed what you wrote. Glad you (successfully) tried the rubbing alcohol. 

Sometime the expensive stuff is the best way to go, sometimes the cheap stuff works great (or better)

I try my hardest to stay away from claybar more than once a year, cuase I was told it does effect the clear coat


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

thrillhill said:


> Rocky, I apologize for my harsh post, I had read what you posted too quickly, and mis-construed what you wrote. Glad you (successfully) tried the rubbing alcohol.


That's cool. Sometimes things happen and whatever and the fact you're mentioning it shows something about you - something good. 
:thumbup:



thrillhill said:


> I try my hardest to stay away from claybar more than once a year, cuase I was told it does effect the clear coat


As far as the claybar, would you then say, if the car is relatively new, and looks pretty good after being washed, that I should skip the claybar altogether and just use it on some of the sap rings, since the clay does seem like a lot of work and may not be necessary?


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Clay bar is not a lot of work and at 1 year I'd definitely do it, in fact I do it even on brand new cars. I suggest that you read this article: How-To Clean Your Paint with Clay

As far as spots left by tree sap I'd hit them with that Meg's #9 SMR. Take a cotton or microfiber towel to apply the polish and rub the spots until it dries, remove residue with clean towel. That SMR has more cutting action than Klasse AIO and is sure to remove these spots.

I don't know what you plan on using to apply AIO but if I may suggest something it would be Viking foam applicator: http://www.vikingcarcare.com/vikingcarcare/products/polish/applctrs.aspx# 
I buy it locally at AutoZone. It gives you nice grip and allows for nice uniform pressure reducing a chance of swirling the paint.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Great info*



F1Crazy said:


> Clay bar is not a lot of work and at 1 year I'd definitely do it, in fact I do it even on brand new cars. I suggest that you read this article: How-To Clean Your Paint with Clay
> 
> As far as spots left by tree sap I'd hit them with that Meg's #9 SMR. Take a cotton or microfiber towel to apply the polish and rub the spots until it dries, remove residue with clean towel. That SMR has more cutting action than Klasse AIO and is sure to remove these spots.
> 
> ...


As usual, you're a wealth of info. Yes, I wanted to find out where to buy the Viking pads.
I will also try the Meguiar's on the swirls and rings.

If you don't mind, could you please comment o the following by THRILLHILL. Will the clay affect the clear coat?


thrillhill said:


> I try my hardest to stay away from claybar more than once a year, cuase I was told it does effect the clear coat


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

rocky said:


> As usual, you're a wealth of info. Yes, I wanted to find out where to buy the Viking pads.
> I will also try the Meguiar's on the swirls and rings.
> 
> If you don't mind, could you please comment o the following by THRILLHILL. Will the clay affect the clear coat?


 :dunno: I never had a problem and I've done it on so many cars. I'd think that leaving these brake dust and metal contaminants to corrode is gona do more damage. On white cars you can see embedded stuff rusting! I clay my car at least once a year but usually it's more like every 6 months. Just my $.02


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

rocky said:


> If you don't mind, could you please comment o the following by THRILLHILL. Will the clay affect the clear coat?


Clay is just a product that creates a super smooth surface against the clear coat. It does not actually remove clear like polish or swirl mark remover. What it CAN cause if used improperly is scratches in the paint. If something large (sand or other grit) gets caught in the clay and that gets slid along the car, you'll get a scratch. Thats why it's best to check the clay and fold it's surface frequently.

F1 will tell you that polishing a car too often will cause the clear to go away down the road. I think this is a lot like getting a suntan from a full moon.


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## johnnygraphic (Jun 26, 2004)

F1Crazy said:


> :dunno: I never had a problem and I've done it on so many cars. I'd think that leaving these brake dust and metal contaminants to corrode is gona do more damage. On white cars you can see embedded stuff rusting! I clay my car at least once a year but usually it's more like every 6 months. Just my $.02


Clay bar is designed NOT to harm your paint, but rather pull contaminants out of the paint. It IS a lot of work. Since you will need to clay your paint, polish and then wax/seal it. A minimum of 3 steps.

The rings probably will not come out with the clay bar. Since your car is newer, you don't NEED to do it. But, as a test, after you've washed your car, put your hand in a plastic sandwich bag and run it over the car. You WILL feel tons of grit. This is the stuff the clay bar will remove. You can defer this step to a later time. IF you have the time, I would at least polish and wax/seal it. However, it would be a shame to do all of that, when an hour or so could get your car clayed.

The most important step when you're detailing your car is PREPARATION. By using the right products with the right technique, your final application of wax/sealant is maximized.

If you haven't yet, spend some time on the Proper Auto Care website and go thru their tutorials on how to use the different products and you'll feel more confident about what to do. Then, next, just do it! You won't kill your car. It's not rocket science, but, does take time and preparation.

Glad to hear your sap came off!

Johnny


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Hmmm, I don't understand why did you quote me? Is there something in my post you don't agree with?


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

johnnygraphic said:


> Clay bar is designed NOT to harm your paint, but rather pull contaminants out of the paint. It IS a lot of work. Since you will need to clay your paint, polish and then wax/seal it. A minimum of 3 steps.
> 
> Then, next, just do it! You won't kill your car. It's not rocket science, but, does take time and preparation.
> Johnny


Quick question. You said "polish" above, but I didn't really plan on using a polish. I'm planning to:
Possibly claybar
Meguiar's #2 SMR as needed
Klasse AIO
S100 wax

Does this seem reasonable?


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

rocky said:


> Quick question. You said "polish" above, but I didn't really plan on using a polish. I'm planning to:
> Possibly claybar
> Meguiar's #2 SMR as needed
> Klasse AIO
> ...


Mequires and AIO are polishes of varying degrees. Anything with a cleaning agent is a polish. This gets more confusing when one considers that Zaino calls it's *wax* a polish, yet it contains no cleaning agents.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Quoted...*



F1Crazy said:


> Hmmm, I don't understand why did you quote me? Is there something in my post you don't agree with?


I think the JOHNNYGRAPHIC quote of your post most likely was to show agreement with what you said - my interpretation.


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

rocky said:


> I think the JOHNNYGRAPHIC quote of your post most likely was to show agreement with what you said - my interpretation.


He's just edgy from my moon burn comments. :fingers:


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

rocky said:


> In case anyone is interested, I finally did try the rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl alcohol) on the sap. From the smell and texture with fresh sap, it looks like pine sap.


:thumbup: I can't believe you tried 3 products made for the purpose of removing sap and simple 70% alcohol did the trick so easily. Thanks for letting us know. It will probably save me a few $ if I ever end up with a dried sap issue.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*More on sap removal products...*



1Dreamer said:


> :thumbup: I can't believe you tried 3 products made for the purpose of removing sap and simple 70% alcohol did the trick so easily. Thanks for letting us know. It will probably save me a few $ if I ever end up with a dried sap issue.


I think possibly those products are meant for "fresh sap" or non-pine sap. I really don't think they differ that much in content. I will list them again, in case anyone wants the list:
Blue Coral Bug & Tar Remover (gel)
Turtle Wax Bug & Tar Remover (liquid in can)
Stoner's Tarminator (aerosol)

I think Stoner's is a bit easier to apply, since it is a spray.

I still would only reserve using the alcohol for tough situations - it is alcohol which is a solvent. Also, I would recommend washing the area after using any of these products. The best advice, I think, is remove any of this as soon as possible - the longer you wait, you may cause a ring or stain after removal.


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

rocky said:


> The best advice, I think, is remove any of this as soon as possible - the longer you wait, you may cause a ring or stain after removal.


Yes, I have had sap droplets on my car but never let them dry and managed to get them off pretty easily the same day and I'm just very careful about never parking below a tree that looks like it's dropping anything. I also have a car cover for those times when you just can't avoid it or have to leave the car at the airport for several days. I've gotten it down to where I can put it on in about 2 minutes and take it off in about one minute. Not sure if that's something you'd be willing to consider, but it's a relatively inexpensive investment to protect your expensive car from the sun and other elements when you have to park in places you'd prefer not to.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Car cover...*



1Dreamer said:


> Yes, I have had sap droplets on my car but never let them dry and managed to get them off pretty easily the same day and I'm just very careful about never parking below a tree that looks like it's dropping anything. I also have a car cover for those times when you just can't avoid it or have to leave the car at the airport for several days. I've gotten it down to where I can put it on in about 2 minutes and take it off in about one minute. Not sure if that's something you'd be willing to consider, but it's a relatively inexpensive investment to protect your expensive car from the sun and other elements when you have to park in places you'd prefer not to.


As always, I appreciate your suggestions, yet a car cover is too impractical. The problem is this car is used for many short trips during the day. I actually tried a car cover years ago on another car and it just turned out to be too much trouble, and also there was always the possibility of getting some dirt inside the cover and scratching the car. I actually was really into taking care of that car then, but I think after being into this forum for awhile, I'm getting back into it.

I think I'll just be more cognizant of the cars now when I get sap.

Let me ask you another question, if I could. I'm not sure if I can invest the time right now to use Klasse AIO on two cars and then wax them both with S100. I'm assuming the best approach is to put on the Klasse, and wax later when I have more time, and NOT put on the wax now, and add Klasse later. I'm assuming it's always Klasse (or other polish/cleaner), followed by wax. I just need to check to make sure I understand the products, and that's why I'm asking. Of course, I would give the car a good wash before applying the wax.

In the "old days", I used to just wash and use Blue Coral or Classic Wax - many moons ago. Either there weren't that many products to choose from then, or it was harder to find out about products - pre-Internet. Remember then?


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

Yes, you always want to use AIO or any sealant product before waxing. Sealants bond with the paint and seal it, where wax is basically a coating over the paint. If you coat the paint with wax, the sealant has nothing to bond with so you'd have to strip off every bit of wax before you could apply sealant. Since AIO is actually a cleaner/polish/sealant in one product, the cleaners in the product will actually remove wax, but I don't think I'd be comfortable depending on it to remove all the wax unless you went over the whole car twice to make sure you got every inch . . . . or washed the car first with Dawn dishwashing liquid. Dawn is often used for this as it's known to strip wax and prep your car for sealant, but it's also on the harsh side and isn't something you want to use on the paint any more than you have to. I try to avoid using it at all. 

IMO, the sealant in AIO alone may not give your car the showroom shine you should have after using S100, but it will protect your car better and longer than any wax on the market and since you've never waxed, I'm sure it will be shinier than it was and you'll notice the difference. So if you're going to use one or the other, just use the AIO. I did one coat of AIO and one coat of Klasse SG on a friend's white BMW last weekend. The paint was in pretty good condition to start with, but even after one coat of AIO (before we even applied the SG) I still got a "wow" out of him and it was amazing how much dirt came off on the applicator that wasn't visible to the naked eye. I think you'll be happy.

P.S. I completely understand about the car cover. I rarely use mine and most people think I'm a fanatic for owning one. I'm almost embarrassed to get it out and put it on, but it's just something I keep in the trunk for those times when I really need it.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Yet another two questions*



1Dreamer said:


> Yes, you always want to use AIO or any sealant product before waxing. Sealants bond with the paint and seal it, where wax is basically a coating over the paint. If you coat the paint with wax, the sealant has nothing to bond with so you'd have to strip off every bit of wax before you could apply sealant. Since AIO is actually a cleaner/polish/sealant in one product, the cleaners in the product will actually remove wax, but I don't think I'd be comfortable depending on it to remove all the wax unless you went over the whole car twice to make sure you got every inch . . . . or washed the car first with Dawn dishwashing liquid. Dawn is often used for this as it's known to strip wax and prep your car for sealant, but it's also on the harsh side and isn't something you want to use on the paint any more than you have to. I try to avoid using it at all.
> 
> IMO, the sealant in AIO alone may not give your car the showroom shine you should have after using S100, but it will protect your car better and longer than any wax on the market and since you've never waxed, I'm sure it will be shinier than it was and you'll notice the difference. So if you're going to use one or the other, just use the AIO. I did one coat of AIO and one coat of Klasse SG on a friend's white BMW last weekend. The paint was in pretty good condition to start with, but even after one coat of AIO (before we even applied the SG) I still got a "wow" out of him and it was amazing how much dirt came off on the applicator that wasn't visible to the naked eye. I think you'll be happy.


Just a couple more questions, if you don't mind.

First, you said not to apply Klasse over wax. I'm assuming the car was waxed when it came from the dealer about a year go (that's who put in the swirls  ). So, should I assume that wax has worn off and the Klasse will "take" over it. I'd rather not use Dawn on the car if unnecessary.

Second, I was planning to use the S100 on the recommendations of a number of people in this forum -saying it was a great wax and reasonably easy to apply. Yet, you mentioned above the Klasse SG after the Klasse. So, do you still think the S100 isl the best choice for me?


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## 1Dreamer (Oct 23, 2004)

rocky said:


> Just a couple more questions, if you don't mind.
> 
> First, you said not to apply Klasse over wax. I'm assuming the car was waxed when it came from the dealer about a year go (that's who put in the swirls  ). So, should I assume that wax has worn off and the Klasse will "take" over it. I'd rather not use Dawn on the car if unnecessary.
> 
> Second, I was planning to use the S100 on the recommendations of a number of people in this forum -saying it was a great wax and reasonably easy to apply. Yet, you mentioned above the Klasse SG after the Klasse. So, do you still think the S100 isl the best choice for me?


Yes, even the best waxes only last a couple of months, maybe a little longer if you have it in the garage all the time and it's never exposed to the elements. After a year, I'm sure it's all gone. Even if there was a little residual wax on it, the AIO would remove it so I wouldn't worry about that at all, especially since I highly doubt the dealer waxed the car unless you paid them to apply some sort of protection to it.

And yes, I think I was the original person to suggest you use S100 because I thought it would be the best product for you. It's very easy to apply, goes on and comes off like butter, won't stain the trim and gives and incredible shine. It's all my neighbor uses on his Porsche which he's really fussy about and keeps covered in the garage only to be uses as a weekend fun car. SG is the same sealant as they put in AIO, only it's pure sealant with no cleaning properties. It's a great product that will protect your car for up to a year depending on various factors, but there's a trick to applying it. You have to put it on so thinly you can barely see where you put it on or it can be murder to remove and it may cause you more aggravation than it's worth. S100 will give you a deeper, wetter shine. It will only last for a couple of months or so, but you'll still have the sealant from the AIO underneath and the S100 is easy enough to use I don't think you'll find it to be too time consuming or too much work to put a quick coat on every so often.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Thanks..*

Will let you know how things go. I''m also assuming that I should do the wheels first - since wheel cleaner may remove the Klasse - planning to use Eagle One Wheel and Tire Cleaner. Possibly thinking of Klasse on the wheels after - have seen it suggested.


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## rocky (Jun 30, 2004)

*Yes - you were*



1Dreamer said:


> And yes, I think I was the original person to suggest you use S100 because I thought it would be the best product for you. It's very easy to apply, goes on and comes off like butter, won't stain the trim and gives and incredible shine. It's all my neighbor uses on his Porsche which he's really fussy about and keeps covered in the garage only to be uses as a weekend fun car. SG is the same sealant as they put in AIO, only it's pure sealant with no cleaning properties. It's a great product that will protect your car for up to a year depending on various factors, but there's a trick to applying it. You have to put it on so thinly you can barely see where you put it on or it can be murder to remove and it may cause you more aggravation than it's worth. S100 will give you a deeper, wetter shine. It will only last for a couple of months or so, but you'll still have the sealant from the AIO underneath and the S100 is easy enough to use I don't think you'll find it to be too time consuming or too much work to put a quick coat on every so often.





1Dreamer said:


> And yes, I think I was the original person to suggest you use S100 because I thought it would be the best product for you. It's very easy to apply, goes on and comes off like butter, won't stain the trim and gives and incredible shine. It's all my neighbor uses on his Porsche which he's really fussy about and keeps covered in the garage only to be uses as a weekend fun car. SG is the same sealant as they put in AIO, only it's pure sealant with no cleaning properties. It's a great product that will protect your car for up to a year depending on various factors, but there's a trick to applying it. You have to put it on so thinly you can barely see where you put it on or it can be murder to remove and it may cause you more aggravation than it's worth. S100 will give you a deeper, wetter shine. It will only last for a couple of months or so, but you'll still have the sealant from the AIO underneath and the S100 is easy enough to use I don't think you'll find it to be too time consuming or too much work to put a quick coat on every so often.


Yes, you were the first one to suggest this. I just checked. I'm getting psyched to try this out very soon.

And you did your Dad's car with it. You're a good son. 
:thumbup:


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