# Asking for friend: xi versus i



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

lsedels said:


> I would not have bought a RWD BMW because they have a reputation for fishtailing in the snow.





> I also respectfully disagree with the statement that someone can do better in the snow with a RWD (if you're careful) over an AWD.


With winter tires I never fish tail unless I force it on purpose. I also would contend that the i will stop quicker than the xi in snow due to less weight. The advantage the Xi has is on steep inclined snow covered roads and it's not like night or day between the two.


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

e46shift said:


> depends if its used for snow. snow tires perform better than awd w/ allseasons


I can't imagine a RWD w/ snow tires being better than any AWD system with any tires. AWD is suppose to be superior in bad weather. Why else would there even be an AWD system to be begin with?


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

solsurfr said:


> I can't imagine a RWD w/ snow tires being better than any AWD system with any tires. AWD is suppose to be superior in bad weather. Why else would there even be an AWD system to be begin with?


 :flame: 
: popcorn:


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

rumatt said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I suggest everyone read the following before continuing to discuss this topic: http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3888&page_number=1
> 
> Here's a highlight.


 :thumbup:

saves me from replying


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

ObD said:


> With winter tires I never fish tail unless I force it on purpose. I also would contend that the i will stop quicker than the xi in snow due to less weight. The advantage the Xi has is on steep inclined snow covered roads and it's not like night or day between the two.


 It is a night and day difference when you can get up the hill with one system and not the other...or coming to a stop somewhere for some reason and then either being able to get moving again or not.

I wouldn't argue that a 330i or 325i with snows is inadequete for driving in the sloppy stuff. But I do believe that a 330xi or 325xi with snows will do better in the areas where AWD can be helpful.

The xi system does not add so much weight (at ~150 lbs) that it can reasonably be seen as an issue in a vehicle that already weighs well in excess of 3200 lbs. In fact, if you leave the car in gear, the addition of engine braking applied to the front wheels instead of just the rears can aid stability.

Another benefit of the xi system is the Hill Decent Control. Even with all the snow we had here last year, I only used it a handful of times, but it did make descending those hills at super low speed much easier.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

solsurfr said:


> I can't imagine a RWD w/ snow tires being better than any AWD system with any tires. AWD is suppose to be superior in bad weather. Why else would there even be an AWD system to be begin with?


And this is the type of ignorance that fills our roads with lousy, dangerous drivers. :tsk:


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

OBS3SSION said:


> And this is the type of ignorance that fills our roads with lousy, dangerous drivers. :tsk:


Danger is when you are stuck on an incline on a snowy night and holding everyone else up and possible causing a multi-car accident. I did mention in another post that you have to practice common sense no matter system you are driving. Telling us that a RWD with snow tires is better than an AWD system is just as ignorant. If you think a little about that statement, it makes absolutely no sense. An AWD system is designed for inclement weather. A RWD systems designed for performing on dry surfaces and adding stability control and winter tires may help but it still can't hold a candle to an AWD car. If you don't have an AWD car then getting snow tires will keep you safer but not as safe as an AWD car. How is this even debateable?


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## Phil F (Mar 16, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> RWD is one hell of a lot more fun, and the steering feels a hell of a lot better.


I think that Nick325xiT is mostly right here. The RWD is more fun (but not "one hell of a lot"); and the RWD steering is a more precise (but, again, not by that much).

Still, everything in life is a compromise. I chose an xi so I could get up my driveway. (The car has exhibited many virtues beyond its ability to climb icy inclines, though.)

Would I get another xi? Yes. Unless, of course, I move to the 'Sun Belt'.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

rumatt said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I suggest everyone read the following before continuing to discuss this topic: http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3888&page_number=1
> 
> Here's a highlight.


Since when does anyone on this board listen to anything C&D has to say?


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

solsurfr said:


> Danger is when you are stuck on an incline on a snowy night and holding everyone else up and possible causing a multi-car accident. I did mention in another post that you have to practice common sense no matter system you are driving. Telling us that a RWD with snow tires is better than an AWD system is just as ignorant. If you think a little about that statement, it makes absolutely no sense. An AWD system is designed for inclement weather. A RWD systems designed for performing on dry surfaces and adding stability control and winter tires may help but it still can't hold a candle to an AWD car. If you don't have an AWD car then getting snow tires will keep you safer but not as safe as an AWD car. How is this even debateable?


The plain, simple fact is that in most cases, a 2WD (RWD or FWD) car shod with snow tires will outperform in the snow an AWD vehicle shod only with all-seasons. It all comes down to traction... and all-seasons, at best, are adequate in the snow.

The point of my statement was that too many ill-informed American consumers have taken the misbelieve hook, line and sinker and really, honestly think that an AWD car is the BEST solution available... no matter what. It's not.

As stated before, an AWD with snow tires is going to be the better than a 2WD car in the snow... But do most people need it? RWD cars were not designed for performing on dry surfaces. They were designed to propel cars forward, period. FWD was designed to propel cars forward as well... more cheaply. AWD does have benefits (as discussed in previous posts), but is certainly not the end-all, be-all drive system.

How on Earth do you think we survived winters 20-30 years ago when all cars were huge, heavy behemoths and RWD was pretty much the norm? AWD was reserved for trucks (SUV's weren't even invented yet) and those trucks actually did truck-like stuff.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

OBS3SSION said:


> How on Earth do you think we survived winters 20-30 years ago when all cars were huge, heavy behemoths and RWD was pretty much the norm?


Skinny, tall profile tires. :eeps:


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

OBS3SSION said:


> The plain, simple fact is that in most cases, a 2WD (RWD or FWD) car shod with snow tires will outperform in the snow an AWD vehicle shod only with all-seasons. It all comes down to traction... and all-seasons, at best, are adequate in the snow.


I haven't the opportunity to try out a RWD car with snow tires and drive thru 6inches of snow up a hill vs. that same scenerio with AS AWD car. If your telling me studded winter tires on a 330i will out perform a 330xi with AS tires up a steep incline in packed powder, then maybe I was wrong all along about AWD ---it is a waste of money!



> The point of my statement was that too many ill-informed American consumers have taken the misbelieve hook, line and sinker and really, honestly think that an AWD car is the BEST solution available... no matter what. It's not.


In terms of overall safety in winter driving, an AWD car is a better choice. I'm not even going to argue this point anymore.



> As stated before, an AWD with snow tires is going to be the better than a 2WD car in the snow... But do most people need it? RWD cars were not designed for performing on dry surfaces. They were designed to propel cars forward, period. FWD was designed to propel cars forward as well... more cheaply. AWD does have benefits (as discussed in previous posts), but is certainly not the end-all, be-all drive system.


If I lived in San Diego, I wouldn't even be in this thread. In it's literal definition, any drive system is made to propel cars forward. AWD is a nice2have and that is all. It is a choice. If you don't need it, then you don't need it, period.



> How on Earth do you think we survived winters 20-30 years ago when all cars were huge, heavy behemoths and RWD was pretty much the norm? AWD was reserved for trucks (SUV's weren't even invented yet) and those trucks actually did truck-like stuff.


My old man has a mazda miata and always brags to me that he's "survived" many winters in his little RWD car. To me, survived is a term used when things are looking bleak. He's called me many times when he can't get to a place and when he's been snowed in for 3 or 4 days. He tells me that when he puts his chains on his tires, he's as good as all of us SUV drivers --ok, fine. Is surviving and changing tires worth the price of admission when there are other options like AWD? To me, I'll spend a little extra for the added safety for my family rather than spending money on another set of tires and spending time to change them and making sure they are on correctly. The AWD craze is definitely over-rated in the US and I won't argue that. Everyone and their grandma's are driving SUV's and most don't even go off-road or even see a dusting of snow. I only go full 50/50 in my Isuzu if I'm heading on the beach. During the crazy storm in February here in Philly last year, where we got 20+ inches in one night, I still kept my SUV at 40/60 and still charged thru hills and any snow banks that were in my way and all on AS Yokahama tires.

It's a matter of choice and I guess we could debate this till we are blue in the face. Every XI owner has told me that they'll never go back. I found one on this forum that regrets getting the XI. It isn't for everyone but it definitely is for me.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

solsurfr said:


> If I lived in San Diego, I wouldn't even be in this thread.


:lmao:


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

rumatt said:


> One last try....
> 
> 1) *Do you realize that AWD does not help you STOP?*
> 
> ...


1. OMG, a revelation from the expert on stopping, thanks.
2. Yes, great article and insight on AWD vs RWD vs FWD. 
3. Where I live, there are a lot of windy, backroads with hills. Too many times, I see RWD cars clogging up both lanes and spinning out thus creating dangerous situations for everyone on the road.

I am correct in stating that for inclement weather you can't go wrong with an AWD system. They are built for safety and inclement weather. It is a no brainer. I did mention in previous posts about the tradeoffs and benefits of a RWD Bimmer. Like I mentioned BEFORE, if I lived in an area where snow wasn't an issue there would be no reason for me to get an XI. Since your defensiveness makes you agressive, you failed to see that I did point out that AWD isn't for everyone. If you think that is blind, than I can't help you with your point of view.

Having owned a 4WD, AWD, RWD, and FWD car, I have no qualms in stating that my 4WD/AWD vehicle was hands-down the best vehicles for me during the winter months on AS tires. I had absolutely no worries and it kept my family safe from idiotic drivers from all types of drive systems.

BUT... if you don't need it, then you simply don't need it. ( I did mention this before as well, perhaps you were blind to see that? )


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

rumatt said:


> Clyde, I agree if you you have snows. But if it's AWD without the snows, it's a tough choice.


I've never really understood why people like to fall into the comparison of 2WD w/ snows and AWD w/o snows. It's as if people were going out of their way to introduce as many variables as possible in order to ensure that they end up with an apples to oranges comparison.

That said, I don't feel like snows are a reasonable tire choice where I live (DC area). I don't think that we get enough snow here to justify their lousy performance in everything other than sloppy conditions. All seasons are good enough to handle what limited amounts of snow comes our way and their dry weather on-road performance is good enough for me during the winter. It wouldn't matter if the car was AWD or RWD. If I lived somewhere with a lot of snow, the car would get snows in the winter, again without regard to whether the car was AWD or RWD. In either case, I'm going to have more confidence in the AWD car when the roads turn to shit.

Regarding all seasons in the snow...I've said a number of times that I was quite impressed with how well the GY Eagle RS-A all season did in the snow last year. I had absolutely no complaints about their snow performance. I was always amazed at how much traction I had while starting, stopping and turning especially considering the unique treadwear situation I had on those tires. There was always more traction available than I would have expected. I never would have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself.



> Here's a hypothetical for you. If you had to pick a vehicle for you wife to get through the winter in your area (where are you again?) would you pick a RWD vehicle with snows, or an AWD with all-seasons?


As I said above, that's an unfair comparison and not one that I would make.



> With the AWD she'd be less likely to get stuck somewhere, but I don't live in a particularly hilly area.


We live at the end of a cul-de-sac at the bottom of a hill that doesn't get plowed/treated until anything that fell from the sky has long since melted away. There is a litmus test...you can get up the hill and get out of the neighborhood, or you can't. That kind of sets the tone for the whole day.

On a side note, nearly all of the times that I have gotten stuck in winter conditions it has not been on a hill of any significance. I've had some interesting adventures getting up hills of significance, but I can't recall ever actually getting stuck. I've gotten stuck in parking lots a number of times in 2WD cars when the tires came to a stop in icy ruts and just had no traction to get out without extensive rocking or pushing. I got my wife's Altima good and stuck on level ground at the top of the aforementioned hill last winter while trying to turn around after coming into the neighborhood. I've had forward progress come to a halt going up very gentle but lengthy inclines and frequently gone up similar inclines sideways in RWD cars or with the front swaying back and forth in FWD. All of those situations were on all season equipped 2WD cars (I'll skip the summer tired 5.0 Mustangs and C4 Corvette in the snow stories ). I did not have a single similar issue in the all season equipped xiT last year...which includes the xmas day snowstorm in a rural, hilly section of CT.



> A more likely danger is probably accelerating in mildly slippery conditions without her realizing how slippery it is (AWD makes this worse), and needing to stop and not being able to.
> 
> My guess is that she's actually safer having RWD where the wheels slip a little when she tries to accelerate so that it provides feedback that it is slippery. And then of course having the snow tires would provide superior stopping and turning ability.
> 
> ...


It's still an invalid comparison. Still, perhaps your wife would pick up on feedback if the rear started to step out a little while pulling away from a stop light/sign. What makes you think that mine would? Also, what makes you think that the conditions at that stop light/sign are necessarily going to be an indicator of conditions a little ways down the road? IME, around DC, when there's crap on the roads, about the only thing that you can count on is that traction will be continuously variable until you park and get out of your vehicle.


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## Terry Kennedy (Sep 21, 2002)

I've driven RWD, FWD. and AWD cars. I grew up driving RWD cars when those were all that were available, I followed the herd when auto makers switched to FWD, and I bought my first AWD car in 1994 - a 1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD.

The Talon was the first car in many years that I was comfortable with in rainy conditions. Here in NY, we have roads that get quite oily, and which have pronounced ruts at the spacing of truck wheels from the combination of overweight trucks and poor road maintenance.

The car I had before the Talon (an '87 Dodge Colt DL) would wander all over the road when the road got wet - one tire would just hydroplane or skid on the oily water, leaving only one tire to pull the car forward (and in the direction of that tire). 

The Talon solved all that - it would go in a straight line no matter what the road was like. It didn't even wander on steel grid deck bridges. Part of that was due to the tires it came with, which were a huge improvement over the Colt's tires. The Talon acted it like it was glued to the road - incredible handling. Though it might alienate some folks here, I think it handled better than my BMW wagon.

When it came time to buy a car to replace the Talon, AWD was a requirement based on my experience with the Talon.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

rumatt said:


> I think it's reasonable to discuss the tradeoffs between these two situations


I think that we'll have to agree to disagree on this.



> Of course, it's no guarantee. But the possibility of some feedback is better than no feedback.


Not when that feedback leads you to believe that the situation is different than it actually is. Dunno about you, but I'd prefer not to get feedback that makes me think that there is more traction available than there actually is.



> Yep. This is the true shortcoming of the "RWD with snows" scenario. I'd like to know how well performance snows do relative to all-seasons. If they're relatively close on dry pavement, then I think they make sense for us (NYC area). But even here the roads are dry 90% of the time so it's actually not a no-brainer.


From the exclamations of people on this and other boards in March/April when their snows come off, I don't get the impression that even the best of snows are satisfactory in nonslop conditions yet. :dunno:



> I guess the only solution is to be like Nick and change daily based on the forecast. :eeps:


Being like Nick is no solution for anyone other than Nick. :angel:


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## machmeter (Aug 6, 2002)

The original question in this thread is a good question. Unfortunately, no simple answer exists, but some people sure have strong opinions and are very talented at babbling on and on.  

I just think the letter "x" looks especially sexy on the back of my car.  :rofl:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

rumatt said:


> I don't agree to disagree. I am right on this one.  (Seriously)
> 
> The only reason you don't want to compare the two scenarios is because you already understand that they're not comparable, ie, you understand the tradeoffs. But many people don't get this, and they compare them as if it is apples to apples. I'm advocating any discussion that enlightens them on understanding exactly what is better and worse about each scenario. My whole point is that one is not better than the other, but they are different. I really think we're saying the same thing.


Around here, it's rare to ever see any cars equipped with snow tires, 2WD or AWD. Each would be better on snows when in the snow, but neither kind is likely to be on snows, ever. It's not a choice of RWD w/ snows or AWD w/ a/s. It's a choice of which one w/ all seasons. In snowier climates, I would guess that it's a different story.



> True. But this is somewhat skewed because many of them are going from snows all the way to z-rated performance tires. They don't count if we're assessing performance-snows vs all-seasons.


Most of the people talking about their tires don't really know what they're talking about anyway so it's a questionable reference point at best, but it seems clear that there is a substantial perceived difference in feel that leads me to believe that I would be unhappy with them even if the actual difference in ultimate performance was minimal.


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

rumatt said:


> I'm trying to figure out if you realize that a RWD car with snows has _some_ advantages over an AWD car with all-seasons. If your answer is yes, then your statement above (and many of the other statements you made in this thread) are obviously false. If your answer is no, then you didn't read the article... or my point #1 above. (I hoped that the bold would help, but I guess not.  )
> 
> *sigh* Did you confirm that they had snow tires?


There are obvious advantages to putting snow tires on a car that doesn't have AWD. To me, that is not a fair comparison because you have to *add* something to a car to make it perform equally to a car already equipped for inclement weather. That isn't an apples to apples comparison. If you want to go in that direction, then lets look at it deeper. Putting on snow tires during the months of Dec/Jan/Feb/Mar can be *more* dangerous if you didn't happen to get any snow during that time. Snow tires (from what i've read) perform horribly in non-shitty conditions which lead to a shorter shelf-life and can potentially be hazardous if not swapped out in a timely manner. Sure, you could *add* snows to a car so that it can be *adequate* in the snow and when you add snows does it outperform an AWD car with stock AS tires? In some scenarious, sure. You also have to remember that not every driver on the road works for C/D and those test results come from above average drivers in the minimum, if not professionals. If you want a true performance test between an 330xi w/ stock AS tires vs. a 330i with snows, then run the test in all conditions (dry, rain, sleet, ice, snow, hills, StuckInTheParkingLotWithYourGroceriesDuringABlizzard, etc.) send me your results. My money will go to the AWD w/ stock tires without even blinking.

You guys can start all the name-calling and get defensive, if you want to. I merely stated an opinion and as I stated, again, it isn't for everyone and not everyone needs snows or an AWD system. To me, it isn't worth my time and money to swap out tires every 3 or 4 months. If anything, I'll invest on a good pair of performance tires for the summer cuz I don't have to worry about the winter anyway.


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## Birdman (Jan 8, 2002)

My driveway is an incline going up.
I don't have space in my garage to store 4 winter tires.
I live in Toronto where we get enough snow to make the AWD worthwhile but not enough in the city to require snows.
I decide to buy the Xi and I have been extremely satisfied. 
'nuff said. (for me)


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

MysticBlue said:


> OK, maybe not a complete queen, but I have a little more of a relationship with it than "just an appliance". I know; a lot of people in certain income brackets just consider 3's pretty ordinary...See plenty of them in some high school parking lots. If I could afford a 60k, 70k, 90k, or whatever garage queen, then maybe that would be a little more understandable to you. But I truly believe I got the best car 42k could buy. And I do drive it everyday, to work, to the store, etc. Just choose not to drive it much in snowy, icy weather. And If you truly believe it is just an appliance, what are you doing spending time on this forum?
> And to answer the original question... if it was the *ONLY* vehicle I owned, and the xi or the i were the *ONLY* choices, it would probably be the xi. But then again, if I were getting an xi, I would seriously look at an Audi.


You are right. For the money, you can't go wrong. Leave it in the garage for crappy days? Not me. It is a car, it is transportation, and that is it's purpose. The people in this forum are just fortunate enough to be able to have really *nice* transportation . For me, I surf, I'm in a band, and I wish I could have a beater car for those days that aI'm lugging around gear but the reality is my soon-to-be 3 is going to have to accomodate me and my hobbies. Sand, surboards, amps, guitars, wetsuits, etc. are all going to be a part of this relationship because I won't be able to NOT drive my 3! But you can be for damn sure I'll do my best to keep it as sparkling clean as possible too!


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## lsedels (Jul 12, 2003)

rumatt said:


> I just saw this post. Wow. This is frustrating.
> 
> Of course it's personal choice. But if you don't understand the advantages and disadvantages of each option, then it is an uninformed and ignorant choice.
> 
> ...


Aw ... comeon ... don't give up yet! We haven't even called each other names yet ! Stick around!


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

rumatt said:


> I have an xi fan cheering me on. Hey, I like it. :thumbup:
> 
> BTW, just for the record, I'm not anti-AWD. I'm just against being confused about it's benefits. My wife needs a car soon and we're thinking of getting an xi (or X3). We'll probably put performance snows on it in the winter.


Don't be so confused or frustrated. The debate isn't that complicated. The XI is the best all-around performer in all-weather conditions. What else is their to argue ;-) ? If you don't have to be concerned about snow, ice, rain, sleet, etc., then don't bother with the XI. Only get one if you NEED one. Snows in the winter will be helpful but they might not be there to save your butt on a dark, snowy uphill climb or stuck in the parking lot at the mall. The benefits, to me, are obvious. If you don't think so, and you'd rather switch out tires, then the XI is simply not for you. Most XI owners will tell you they are happy with their decision as would most RWD owners would say adding snows solves the problem. If that's the case, then the debate is over and we all go on our way happy.

I'll be sure to wave "hi" as I pass you on a hill during a snow storm ;-).


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## solsurfr (Oct 19, 2003)

rumatt said:


> Sorry lsedels, but after this reply I'm done. Sometimes a rational discussion just isn't possible.
> 
> Can we move on to the name calling now?


LOL... Dude, I'm half teasing you and half serious. Lighten up a little! YOU BIG SISSY! :tsk::rofl:


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

rumatt said:


> Why does everyone say this? Your car has DSC and anti-lock brakes. You would NOT be sliding sideways by gently braking. The HDC uses the brakes to stop you anyway. Please explain why you think you could not navigate that situation without HDC.
> 
> I have yet to figure out any advantage to HDC other than that it prevents you from needing to keep your foot on the brake. Big deal. Am I missing any legitimate functionality provided by HDC?


I think now you are just trying to be a wise guy with questions like this 

Using HDC allows you to drive down a steep icy slope without needing to apply your brakes. In fact, with HDC on you can ACCELERATE if the situation demands. My XI has DSC and there is no comparison to using only DSC and using HDC when going down a steep icy hill.

Have you ever driven a vehicle with HDC?

I'm getting a little bored with people who spend time commenting on things they have never tried yet they think they are an expert on just about everything.

Many on this board will say RWD with snows are just as good as AWD yet they have never driven an AWD vehicle. Those that have, tend to compare old AWD systems to the those with HDC and DSC and think they are equal.

Do and apples to apples comparison and you'll see the light.

Yesterday was 66 degree's here in the N. East. How would those mushy snow tires perfrom on dry pavement on a hot day? It's nice to know that some fest members have room the garage for extra tires/rims and they have a torque wrench handy. What about the majority of the population who has neither? They'll have to make and appointment and go to a tire shop to have rims swapped 2x per year. What a pain and what a hassle.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

rumatt said:


> My question was dead serious.
> 
> Yes, I understand that you don't need to use the brake. Buying an automatic transmission allows you to drive without using a clutch, but that doesn't mean I want one. Other than saving you some work, I'm trying to (honestly) figure out if HDC allows you to do anything that can't be done without it.
> 
> ...


I think your best bet is to try both cars out on a nasty day to see which you are most comfortable with and determine which car is best for you. If you are not able to test both cars then you may never know which will work best for your situation.

I am not an expert in HDC or DSC so I can't give a good explanation. But I can tell you that DSC alone, when going down a steep icy road/driveway, is not enough to save you. HDC makes a night and day difference. HDC does have it's limitations (speed) and you really have to know ahead of time when you are going to use it. My situation last winter with me hitting the button was pure luck.

When I purchased my 330xi I thought about RWD with snows but then thought that what would happen if it did not work for my situation? Then what? I'd be screwed. So I went with AWD and figured that if my AS tires did not make it up the steep hils around my house then I could always put snows on it.


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