# Most overrated cars...



## suneil (Nov 2, 2012)

this thread will implode soon....but yeah, Camaro (recent gen) very highly overrated. I may be too short to drive it though (at 5'10")


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## 408Racer (Jan 16, 2013)

hans007 said:


> In every day driving you dont need 400+ hp and that little torque...


Exactly. I want/need more torque than HP 99% of the time.



hans007 said:


> ...I'd rather have a 335i most days than an m3 for actual driving with some money for carefully chosen mods.


I'd rather have my 328i than a 335i most days for actual driving.....whoops, sorry. :angel:


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## 408Racer (Jan 16, 2013)

Chris90 said:


> So basically like every M3 then?
> 
> I wouldn't want them any other way.


I've only been a passenger in the older M3 cars but from what I can tell/remember, the previous generations were clearly more superior by a much wider margin to their competition/contemporaries. With the E90/E92, cars from Audi and MB have significantly narrowed the gap with very compelling alternatives to the King.



chris328 said:


> ....backroads dont have the capacity to handle that or allow you to really wake up the engine. so otherwise you're just paying 10 grand more for status and the badge, and the ability to furrow your brow and pout your lips at every kid in a 335 that goes by


Indeed! I know a guy who defected to AMG and he is of the opinion that the E92 M3, as good as it is, is simply very popular in no small part due to heritage: the greatness of the E46 M3. E46 ZHP drivers were not nearly quite as "uppity" as some in the 335 crowd.



Jamesonsviggen said:


> I put down more tq than an M3 with n N20. Lol. Big whoop. Just the proper LSD of the M3 is worth $2500 of that difference. M cars often add up to more than the sum if their parts, just feel a bit special.


They do have that special feel although I'm not sure if 9 out of 10 buyers drive well enough to benefit LSD.

And what was that old saying, you buy HP but what you really drive is torque?


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

furby076 said:


> Isn't Sonata a hyandai?
> 
> Is the m3 only 10k more then the 335?
> 
> You can look at the paper stats all day long, m3 is hands down faster and quicker then the 335 and has better handling (due to improved suspension, brakes) then the 335.


Pretty much this. I would take ANY generation M3 over the 335. M cars are just so much more special.


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## mr29 (Sep 2, 2012)

good call my bad was trying to m-task at the time

Sent from my XT557 using BimmerApp mobile app


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## tankton (Feb 22, 2013)

Michael Schott said:


> The Hyundai is an appliance and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Still looks good to me. Who in their right mind buys a non-Quattro A6? I didn't even know Audi made one. The F30 is still the sportiest car in it's segment. I too had one as a loaner this week and found it less connected to the road than my E90. Still a damn nice car but needs better steering and brake feel. As far as the E90 being a sports car, it's not and does not pretend to be so. It's a very sporty family sedan.


They make a FWD A8, as well. I don't know if they pulled it from all markets, yet.


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## enigma (Jan 4, 2006)

408Racer said:


> I've only been a passenger in the older M3 cars but from what I can tell/remember, the previous generations were clearly more superior by a much wider margin to their competition/contemporaries. With the E90/E92, cars from Audi and MB have significantly narrowed the gap with very compelling alternatives to the King.
> 
> Indeed! I know a guy who defected to AMG and he is of the opinion that the E92 M3, as good as it is, is simply very popular in no small part due to heritage: the greatness of the E46 M3. E46 ZHP drivers were not nearly quite as "uppity" as some in the 335 crowd.
> 
> ...


So basically you are bashing the M3 based on hearsay and your experience as a passenger?

I must have two of the most overrated BMWs ever produced because the torque from the S65 and the S54 is nothing like the N55 or N20.

And if 9 out 10 drivers cannot benefit from all the stuff that the car offers, it's overrated? Gee... add the 328i to the list since 9 of 10 328i buyers get it for the roundel as a status symbol.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

enigma said:


> So basically you are bashing the M3 based on hearsay and your experience as a passenger?
> 
> I must have two of the most overrated BMWs ever produced because the torque from the S65 and the S54 is nothing like the N55 or N20.
> 
> And if 9 out 10 drivers cannot benefit from all the stuff that the car offers, it's overrated? Gee... add the 328i to the list since 9 of 10 328i buyers get it for the roundel as a status symbol.


Yeap. Also why get RWD? 9 of 10 buyers will probably never benefit from it. The M is in a different league than the 335. I never understood why people compare the 335 to the M.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

Chris90 said:


> Acura TSX (the first gen is the only one I test drove). If you think this car is sporty, you need to get out more. When I told the salesman it wasn't very sporty, he looked at me like I had three heads.
> 
> Any Mazda.


No way can I agree with this. I actually found the first generation TSX just as sporty a MK6 GTI. I spent a significant time with the two. I was actually surprised how sporty and underrated the TSX was.


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## chris328 (Jul 16, 2008)

LegendsNeverDie said:


> Yeap. Also why get RWD? 9 of 10 buyers will probably never benefit from it. The M is in a different league than the 335. I never understood why people compare the 335 to the M.


people compare the 335 to the M as a daily driver because the performance is comparable at a lower average speed (such as one you would find when using it on a daily basis in commuting on back roads). The M is in a different league, just a shame you cant really experience it unless you track it or drive it like an idiot on backroads thinking you're on a racetrack, putting everyone else's lives at risk and reinforcing the BMW douche stereotype :eeps:


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## woodswatchco (Oct 13, 2012)

So, a BMW is no fun and lacks personality but your front wheel drive Accord is a "beast" I'll bet.




deznium said:


> Not trolling, sorry if you think that way.. you can see my past posts that I am not the type to troll.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

chris328 said:


> people compare the 335 to the M as a daily driver because the performance is comparable at a lower average speed (such as one you would find when using it on a daily basis in commuting on back roads). The M is in a different league, just a shame you cant really experience it unless you track it or drive it like an idiot on backroads thinking you're on a racetrack, putting everyone else's lives at risk and reinforcing the BMW douche stereotype :eeps:


No, it is not. Straight line acceleration is only a part of the equation. If this was the case then why not get a WRX, it will post better daily driver performance than the 335 for half the cost. Torque does not necessarily equal performance. The argument that you can't really experience the M on daily basis is silly. If that was the case nobody would get the 335 over the 320. You experience the suspension, steering, brakes, V8 growl...etc. The M is a performance sedan that could also be a very good daily driver. It is a special car. The 335 is really nothing more than a 320/328 with more power.


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## chris328 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hold your horses cowboy, I acknowledged it was in a different league. You can experience the M on a daily basis, but you dont experience what differentiates it from the 335, which is the point. Maybe a stock 335. Also hard to see where you're coming from when you drive a 328. Maybe you should be in the WRX, you sound like it's more your style.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

Jamesonsviggen said:


> C5 Corvette-Drove my friend's 2000 6mt, was quite dissapointed
> '10+ Camaro. I know they can be fast, I know they can handle, but the sight lines, visibility, complete deal breaker.
> E90-I have driven about 1000 miles in a handful of iterations. The way people around here talk and put it on some kind of pedestal waxing on about it being a SPORTS CAR, yeah that is the definition of overrated.


I owned a 2001 Corvette Coupe 6MT (GM upped 15-20HP in '01) and loved it, especially after I installed headers, cat back, 410 gears, a racing clutch, DTE bracket and ZO6 anti roll bars. Best bang for the buck with a sticker of $46,000 for a loaded car.

My wife and I love our 2011 335is convertible. It's s fun sporty car.

My opinion based on ownership.


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## dxt78 (Apr 26, 2013)

For the average driver, I have always found Subaru's to be somewhat overrated. Even though they are extremely reliable, safe, and are a good values, they are typically much noisier and have a rougher ride compared to the Hondas and Toyotas that they compete with.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

dxt78 said:


> For the average driver, I have always found Subaru's to be somewhat overrated. Even though they are extremely reliable, safe, and are a good values, they are typically much noisier and have a rougher ride compared to the Hondas and Toyotas that they compete with.


We had a 2004 Subaru WRX. Very reliable, yes. Fun also, absolutely! It is supposed to be a sporty car.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

chris328 said:


> Hold your horses cowboy, I acknowledged it was in a different league. You can experience the M on a daily basis, but you dont experience what differentiates it from the 335, which is the point. Maybe a stock 335. Also hard to see where you're coming from when you drive a 328. Maybe you should be in the WRX, you sound like it's more your style.


The point is that you do experience what differentiates it from the 335. What does it matter what I drive?. Sorry, don't mean to offend the 335 Super Car but it is far from the M3. There is nothing special in particular about the 335 as daily driver or on the track. It is a nice sporty sedan, just like the 328 but with a little more power.


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## Jamesonsviggen (Jun 18, 2007)

beden1 said:


> I owned a 2001 Corvette Coupe 6MT (GM upped 15-20HP in '01) and loved it, especially after I installed headers, cat back, 410 gears, a racing clutch, DTE bracket and ZO6 anti roll bars. Best bang for the buck with a sticker of $46,000 for a loaded car.
> 
> My wife and I love our 2011 335is convertible. It's s fun sporty car.
> 
> My opinion based on ownership.


I am pretty sure there was no power bump on the ls1 on the c5, was 345hp. The zo6 did get a bump from 385 to 405hp after its first year.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

chris328 said:


> Hold your horses cowboy, I acknowledged it was in a different league. You can experience the M on a daily basis, but you dont experience what differentiates it from the 335, which is the point. *Maybe a stock 335. *Also hard to see where you're coming from when you drive a 328. Maybe you should be in the WRX, you sound like it's more your style.


This is kind of a pet peeve of mine. THere is a comparison of two cars (e.g., 328 and 335) and someone says "well if i mod'd my 328 it would be just like a 335"...except they totally ignored that a modded 328 wont touch a modded 335.

Given that, saying modded 335 to M3 without saying modded M3 is not exactly fair. Though, to be honest, a modded 335 still doesn't have the inherent advantages of a stock M3.


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## solstice (Aug 1, 2010)

All I can say is that if you keep thinking the M3 is like a 335 in day to day use you are making yourself a disfavour since you will be missing out on one of the best sub $100k driving cars available (and sports car deal). They are not even remotely the same experience. Now, you might prefer one over the other but don't make the mistake thinking that it's just a little extra power or track abilities that differentiates them. If you find one M3 owner that thinks it's an overrated car I'll be surprised.


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## chris328 (Jul 16, 2008)

LegendsNeverDie said:


> The point is that you do experience what differentiates it from the 335. What does it matter what I drive?. Sorry, don't mean to offend the 335 Super Car but it is far from the M3. There is nothing special in particular about the 335 as daily driver or on the track. It is a nice sporty sedan, just like the 328 but with a little more power.


so all of a sudden this turns into a discussion about the 335 not being special? I thought this was about the M3. Believe what you want, i also had a 328 before my current (although mine was the coupe), and i feel for you :thumbup:


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## chris328 (Jul 16, 2008)

base msrp for the m3 is 60k, 335 is 45k

so the question is what do you get for 15k, and is it worth it? to me, that determines if the car is overrated. 

The main differences are the s65, lsd, and m suspension.

lsd = 1600
m suspension = 1500

that's about 3100, so basically you're paying 12 grand for the extra 100 horsepower. :dunno:


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## Jamesonsviggen (Jun 18, 2007)

chris328 said:


> base msrp for the m3 is 60k, 335 is 45k
> 
> so the question is what do you get for 15k, and is it worth it? to me, that determines if the car is overrated.
> 
> ...


LSD installed is more like $2-2500, Suspension, more like $2-2500 installed, the brakes, $2-2500 installed.


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## solstice (Aug 1, 2010)

chris328 said:


> base msrp for the m3 is 60k, 335 is 45k
> 
> so the question is what do you get for 15k, and is it worth it? to me, that determines if the car is overrated.
> 
> ...


Even if you added some of the other upgrades you get as seats, brakes, wheels and aero kit you are still missing the point. It's the result that matters most not the parts and the result is a car that is very different to the 335. And the observation that you limit the S65's added value to "100 extra horsepower" further shows that your focus is off when comparing these cars. Also overrated and overpriced are two different things and the S65 pretty much put an end to the overpriced argument when it comes to cost of components.


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## sr5959 (Feb 10, 2012)

Going back to the original post, most over-rated car I have ever driven was a beautiful-looking Jaguar E-Type, honestly drove like crap.

Most unexpectedly fun...Mercedes 560SEC! :thumbup:


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## 408Racer (Jan 16, 2013)

enigma said:


> So basically you are bashing the M3 based on hearsay and your experience as a passenger?
> 
> I must have two of the most overrated BMWs ever produced because the torque from the S65 and the S54 is nothing like the N55 or N20.


Actually, if you read more carefully...

1. I've had extended drives in several E90 and E92 M3s but zero behind the wheel time with the E46 and older. The E90 and E92 generation of M3 left me underwhelmed, particularly when compared with the AMG and Audi competition. Not saying the others are better, more like the M3 is not that much better.

2. As I understand it, the E46 M3 in its time was far more dominant and therefore more special as it did not have to deal with the likes of the 335, C63, and RS4.

3. Most importantly, to say that something is overrated is not the same thing as saying M3 sucks.



enigma said:


> And if 9 out 10 drivers cannot benefit from all the stuff that the car offers, it's overrated? Gee... add the 328i to the list since 9 of 10 328i buyers get it for the roundel as a status symbol.


LOL...you don't have to be Clarkson to know that far more people can benefit and enjoy gobs of torque down low than those that can exploit their cars enough to even know what an LSD is.


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## 408Racer (Jan 16, 2013)

chris328 said:


> people compare the 335 to the M as a daily driver because the performance is comparable at a lower average speed (such as one you would find when using it on a daily basis in commuting on back roads). The M is in a different league, just a shame you cant really experience it unless you track it or drive it like an idiot on backroads thinking you're on a racetrack, putting everyone else's lives at risk and reinforcing the BMW douche stereotype :eeps:


QFT.

Or to be less diplomatic about it:

The 335 isn't as pretty and you only have to buy her a Coach purse but it doesn't take much (maybe just one glass of pinot) to get her in a mood to give you a wild ride (although she may lack some stamina and you may have to take a little break before Round 2).

The E9x M3 is like a very very sexy woman who requires Gucci, eats all your food and needs to get really really hammered before admitting entrance to paradise by the dashboard light.

Then there are those equally hot AMG and Audi chicks who get drunk quickly and actually make even more interesting noises.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

Jamesonsviggen said:


> I am pretty sure there was no power bump on the ls1 on the c5, was 345hp. The zo6 did get a bump from 385 to 405hp after its first year.


'01 C5 had 350HP. The '00 had 345 HP. A 5HP bump. I was incorrect in saying it was a 15HP bump.


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## Jamesonsviggen (Jun 18, 2007)

beden1 said:


> '01 C5 had 350HP. The '00 had 345 HP. A 5HP bump. I was incorrect in saying it was a 15HP bump.


I was obviously wrong that it had NO power bump too-so we're even lol.

5hp obviously did not do enough of stay in my mind.

I felt the C5 was a bit too big, the shifting a bit clunky, the interior obviously plastic fantastic(my '98 is not much better but does have a fair bit of leather on the console and what not). Power was decent stock, and the highway MPG was cool.

I also hated the driving position in my friend's '95 Trans AM, and recently drove a 5mt '08 Mustang GT.


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## enigma (Jan 4, 2006)

chris328 said:


> Hold your horses cowboy, I acknowledged it was in a different league. You can experience the M on a daily basis, but you dont experience what differentiates it from the 335, which is the point. Maybe a stock 335. Also hard to see where you're coming from when you drive a 328. Maybe you should be in the WRX, you sound like it's more your style.


If you are calling a car "overrated" based on how much of car's ability you can harness on public roads, pretty much every BMW model is overrated. What urban areas can you drive your 335i to the fullest potential? None.

You can say the same about pretty much every Porsche?



408Racer said:


> Actually, if you read more carefully...
> 
> 1. I've had extended drives in several E90 and E92 M3s but zero behind the wheel time with the E46 and older. The E90 and E92 generation of M3 left me underwhelmed, particularly when compared with the AMG and Audi competition. Not saying the others are better, more like the M3 is not that much better.


Where exactly did you mention you had extended drives in E9x M3? Even if you had, how can you make a meaningful comparison between something you know (E9x M3) and you don't (E46 M3)? The exact thing you are bashing about in the E9x M3, lack of torque, was more pronounced in the E46 M3. I know because I own cars with both engines.

Do you care to elaborate what exactly left you "underwhelmed"?



408Racer said:


> 2. As I understand it, the E46 M3 in its time was far more dominant and therefore more special as it did not have to deal with the likes of the 335, C63, and RS4.


All generations of the M3 had strong competitions. C&D declared the RS4 a winner in a comparo among AMG C55, BMW E46 M3 and Audi RS4 (link). Conversely, your apparent idol, Jeremy Clarkson, commented on the E9x M3: "M3 is one of the most perfectly balanced machines ever created by man." I am not saying one is necessarily better (for its time) than the other, but your lopsided comment is not accurate.



408Racer said:


> 3. Most importantly, to say that something is overrated is not the same thing as saying M3 sucks.


I never said you did.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

I think people are confusing "Over Rated" with "more car than I need" or "I can't really take advantage of it"

I think the M3 is a great car. It is great on the track and very docile as a daily driver. 

In my case it is probably more than I need for the street and not really what I want as a track car but I respect the M3 for what it is and it has been the benchmark in the segment for a very long time.

CA


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## falar (Mar 23, 2013)

For all the criticism of the 3 and 5 series (F30 and F10) moving up in size and feel I think people don't see the big picture.

With the way BMW is reshaping the lineup (1,2,4 series) some people may need to go down a digit or two to get to the size/feel they are used to.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

chris328 said:


> base msrp for the m3 is 60k, 335 is 45k
> 
> so the question is what do you get for 15k, and is it worth it? to me, that determines if the car is overrated.
> 
> ...


You can make a similar argument for the 328 vs 335. You are neglecting the overall package. The whole is greater then the sum of the parts.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

chris328 said:


> so all of a sudden this turns into a discussion about the 335 not being special? I thought this was about the M3. Believe what you want,* i also had a 328 before my current (although mine was the coupe), and i feel for you* :thumbup:


I own more than one car and why would you "feel" for me? :dunno: I bought the 328 as a daily driver with sporty intentions. It handles better, stops shorter, consumes less fuel and is a lot more reliable than the 335. So I have no clue as why you would "feel" for me. Think whatever you want but the 335 is far from the M3.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Jamesonsviggen said:


> LSD installed is more like $2-2500, Suspension, more like $2-2500 installed, the brakes, $2-2500 installed.


How much to make a 335 a wide body? That won't be cheap. But like with most M cars (save the 1M) you're really paying for the motor.


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## slave2gravity (Mar 28, 2013)

408Racer said:


> QFT.
> 
> Or to be less diplomatic about it:
> 
> ...


Only a guy citing his location as Santana Row would post something like this...  SR - the most materialistic, plastic place north of LA-LA-Land... That stereotype of BMW owners being D-bags...? Yeah...

I guess I'm in the minority of those who disagree about the M3 as overrated. If they made a 4 door version, I'd be waiting on its delivery instead of a 335. I LOVED my e46, which had even less torque, and my e39 M5 was also lacking in the low end twist. Didn't mean they weren't an absolute hoot to drive.

I also disagree about Subarus in general, and WRXs in particular as overrated. My '07 Rex has taken me to the ski slopes and back every weekend since mile 0 and is still going strong at 110k. It is loud and it feels cheap, but nothing has offered the same combo of fun, practicality and reliability for a lower cost. I'm loving our new Outback, too, but for different reason than the "boy racer" qualities.

I'm going to throw the new Audi Allroad in as overrated, albeit on a very limited test drive. The steering downright sucked with the new electric steering system, brake pedal was mushy and throttle tentative. And holy **** it was expensive for what you get! Which is why I went with the Outback...3/4 the luxury, 5/4 more space and 3/5 the price.

Lexus LFA and Nissan GTR, also, based purely on conjecture and magazine articles.


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## 408Racer (Jan 16, 2013)

enigma said:


> ....The exact thing you are bashing about in the E9x M3, lack of torque, was more pronounced in the E46 M3. I know because I own cars with both engines.
> 
> Do you care to elaborate what exactly left you "underwhelmed"?


I'm probably underwhelmed by the same things you like about it. 

Anyway, torque is a big slice of that pie. When they moved to a V8, I was disappointed that it didn't have that trademark V8 character. There was no sense of occasion in firing it up. I have a former co-worker who had owned several M3s but then switched to a C63. That car has far more presence and drama (the good kind of drama).

The M3s I sampled were all very competent but also very clinical and felt cold to me. They would generate ungodly performance numbers but it was like some girl who would say "Sure, whatever" without even looking up as she continued to chew gum and file her fingernails. And when not pushed, it felt too docile.

The visual presence of the car does not excite me very much. Maybe the ///Marketing division is to blame for making "M Sport" body kits available.

With the S54, I suppose things are as they should be...you rev it to get something out of it. I also feel that even as a passenger, the E46's rough edges were endearing.

I very much look forward to owning one (as a second car) some day. During its reign, it may still have lacked torque but not to the same degree when you compare the E90 to its contemporaries (cars that not only overwhelm it in the very important torque department but have closed the gap in other areas as well). And in my eyes, the E46 M3, is the best looking M3.

Now this Car and Driver article is one that probably explains my viewpoint much better than I can: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-bmw-m3-vs-2012-mercedes-benz-c63-amg-comparison-test



enigma said:


> Conversely, your apparent idol, Jeremy Clarkson, commented on the E9x M3: "M3 is one of the most perfectly balanced machines ever created by man." I am not saying one is necessarily better (for its time) than the other, but your lopsided comment is not accurate.


Well balanced does not equal most fun. And Jezza has more fun in the Mercedes. 



enigma said:


> I never said you did.


Ok.



captainaudio said:


> I think people are confusing "Over Rated" with "more car than I need" or "I can't really take advantage of it"
> 
> CA


There's probably some truth to that as well. There's also a bit of "all hail the almighty and perfect M." All I'm saying is, "Yes, great car, but........"

Some like Enigma bring some good points/valid arguments while others essentially just go "well, it's an M. It's special. Period."


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## TannerT (Mar 5, 2012)

Subaru BRZ
328i, 335is is one hell of a car
Charger/Camaro/Challenger , the mustang is the only NEW muscle car worth it.
New vette stingray
This new Lexus/Hyundai stealing euro styling crap.

Most under rated cars

BMW 135/M1
Audi RS7

Flame me!!

Sent from my PantechP9060 using Bimmer App


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

408Racer said:


> They would generate ungodly performance numbers but it was like some girl who would say "Sure, whatever" without even looking up as she continued to chew gum and file her fingernails. And when not pushed, it felt too docile.


I kind of like that - understated elegance. Ungodly performance, subtle package. It doesn't need to make noise, or flash a gold tooth - it just does what it's made to do, and it does it in a kickbutt way. It's the difference between a bruiser and a boxer - the m3 is the boxer.


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## 408Racer (Jan 16, 2013)

slave2gravity said:


> Only a guy citing his location as Santana Row would post something like this...  SR - the most materialistic, plastic place north of LA-LA-Land... That stereotype of BMW owners being D-bags...? Yeah...


So where do you live? Petaluma? :brent: Palo Alto? :jack: San Leandro? : puke:

:bigpimp:


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## 408Racer (Jan 16, 2013)

furby076 said:


> I kind of like that - understated elegance. Ungodly performance, subtle package. It doesn't need to make noise, or flash a gold tooth - it just does what it's made to do, and it does it in a kickbutt way. It's the difference between a bruiser and a boxer - the m3 is the boxer.


Certainly can't disagree with what one likes. :thumbup:


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

slave2gravity said:


> I guess I'm in the minority of those who disagree about the M3 as overrated. If they made a 4 door version, I'd be waiting on its delivery instead of a 335.


What do you mean, they do make a 4 door? Or if you mean the F30, did you not know that was on the way too?












> I also disagree about Subarus in general, and WRXs in particular as overrated. My '07 Rex has taken me to the ski slopes and back every weekend since mile 0 and is still going strong at 110k. It is loud and it feels cheap, but nothing has offered the same combo of fun, practicality and reliability for a lower cost. I'm loving our new Outback, too, but for different reason than the "boy racer" qualities.
> 
> I'm going to throw the new Audi Allroad in as overrated, albeit on a very limited test drive. The steering downright sucked with the new electric steering system, brake pedal was mushy and throttle tentative. And holy **** it was expensive for what you get! Which is why I went with the Outback...3/4 the luxury, 5/4 more space and 3/5 the price.


+1 we traded a 2002 WRX w/ 140k flawless miles for a 2012 Outback, because it was so quiet and comfortable compared to the CRV, which was loud on the highway. The Outback is a really good deal at $27k, imo.


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## solstice (Aug 1, 2010)

Most overrated cars? To me that would be modern Mercedes and F-series BMWs. They both have a reputation and legacy that is over rated compared to what they currently deliver. Benz no longer deliver those carved from one block vault like cars that lasts forever and the F-series BMWs do not live up to the ultimate driving machine legacy built by earlier generations.


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## EddieB (Jun 5, 2003)

slave2gravity said:


> I guess I'm in the minority of those who disagree about the M3 as overrated. If they made a 4 door version, I'd be waiting on its delivery instead of a 335. I LOVED my e46, which had even less torque, and my e39 M5 was also lacking in the low end twist. Didn't mean they weren't an absolute hoot to drive.


After owning an E46 M3 for 6 years it's been a pleasurable experience moving to the F30 335i. I wouldn't say the M is overrated, it seems like the F30 is underrated to an extent. There's less of a gap between them than people give credit.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

I think the F30 BMW is a nice car, but, it gets completely overrated by many of it's owners/posters here on Bimmerfest, IMO.


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## justinnum1 (Nov 22, 2011)

beden1 said:


> I think the F30 BMW is a nice car, but, it gets completely overrated by many of it's owners/posters here on Bimmerfest, IMO.


I enjoy you posting your dislike of the F30 in every thread.

Good to know that old people don't think high of it.


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## suneil (Nov 2, 2012)

When was the F30 touted or overrated by someone? I think it's always been described as a german sedan that gets the job done...I'm conflicted by mine.
It drives excellently and the experience is superb - after I spent $7k in upgrading everything to the M Performance line. Was it bad before? No. But much better now.
What disappoints are the minor issues it has, like the random squeaking the dealership has to address, etc. Not really acceptable in this price range...


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

justinnum1 said:


> I enjoy you posting your dislike of the F30 in every thread.
> 
> Good to know that old people don't think high of it.


Every thread. Not even close. I actually say more good things about the car than bad. Here, I said it is a nice car.

Another very insightful thread by you however.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

A car must first have been highly rated before you can say it is possibly overrated.

As an example, the Accura TSX cannot be overrated since it was never much rated.

The difficulty here is, that leaves only a few cars people can actually say they might be overrated, and these cars happen to be dear in our hearts.

I suggest the mods shut this thread down before people are forced to talk s#&* about their own cars here.


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## Db750 (Jun 16, 2010)

enigma said:


> If you are calling a car "overrated" based on how much of car's ability you can harness on public roads, pretty much every BMW model is overrated. What urban areas can you drive your 335i to the fullest potential? None.
> You can say the same about pretty much every Porsche?
> Where exactly did you mention you had extended drives in E9x M3? Even if you had, how can you make a meaningful comparison between something you know (E9x M3) and you don't (E46 M3)? The exact thing you are bashing about in the E9x M3, lack of torque, was more pronounced in the E46 M3. I know because I own cars with both engines.
> Do you care to elaborate what exactly left you "underwhelmed"?
> ...


You're fighting an uphill battle on this forum, brother. Wish I had time to argue along with you, but unfortunately I have company over and a wife who has a low tolerance to bimmerfest and M5board.

Just enjoy your beautiful stable and the fact that you're right.:thumbup: Having unlimited time to post is the best weapon here.:rofl:


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Db750 said:


> You're fighting an uphill battle on this forum, brother. Wish I had time to argue along with you, but unfortunately I have company over and a wife who has a low tolerance to bimmerfest and M5board.
> 
> Just enjoy your beautiful stable and the fact that you're right.:thumbup: Having unlimited time to post is the best weapon here.:rofl:


You let your wife know? Some people here'd rather admit their mistresses to their wives, than admitting their love affairs with Bimmerfest.


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## Db750 (Jun 16, 2010)

dtc100 said:


> You let your wife know? Some people here'd rather admit their mistresses to their wives, than admitting their love affairs with Bimmerfest.


Haha sorry only been married for about 7 months now so haven't really had time to pick up a mistress. She, on the other hand, has had several years to build her hate for bimmerfest.:rofl:


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## AzWildcatG (Mar 31, 2013)

slave2gravity said:


> Only a guy citing his location as Santana Row would post something like this...  SR - the most materialistic, plastic place north of LA-LA-Land... That stereotype of BMW owners being D-bags...? Yeah....


Hey, my wife and I love to party at Santana Row! I could care less with the self absorbed crowd there. We have fun doing our thing!

The Scottsdale AZ crowd if far more self absorbed and materialistic. D-bags x 1000!


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Db750 said:


> She, on the other hand, has had several years to build her hate for bimmerfest.:rofl:


Any particular reason? Or does she just think Bimmerfest is overrated?


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## Db750 (Jun 16, 2010)

dtc100 said:


> Any particular reason? Or does she just think Bimmerfest is overrated?


:rofl::rofl: Actually, she just thinks driving is overrated. I was lucky to get her into a car that I love to drive (335).

Literally when we bought her car she suggested I drive home. I declined even though I really wanted to. Whe we pulled of onto the main road our house is off of (3 miles from dealer) I suggested she turn right rather than left and enjoy the drive. she did so, and literally did a u-turn at the next light and went straigh home!

She went straight inside and put on Greys Anatomy or something similar. I took the car out for a drive the night we bought it and had a blasts!

Her last car before the 335 was a clk550. She wanted a "white Mercedes convertible". All she cares about is a badge and a certain two door form factor.:rofl:


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## slave2gravity (Mar 28, 2013)

Chris90 said:


> What do you mean, they do make a 4 door? Or if you mean the F30, did you not know that was on the way too?
> 
> +1 we traded a 2002 WRX w/ 140k flawless miles for a 2012 Outback, because it was so quiet and comfortable compared to the CRV, which was loud on the highway. The Outback is a really good deal at $27k, imo.


Yeah, I meant the F30. I thought about getting a CPO E90, but my brother just had a baby in December and I saw what a tight fit it is in his M3 with a rear facing child seat, which killed that idea. We're expecting our first daughter in August, so decided the F30 was a better choice. I know the new M is coming, so I'm leasing the 335 M Sport to give the new M3 time to come out and for BMW to address any issues that come with it.

I am loving the Outback more and more. Just drove it 5 hours up to Tahoe in stop and go traffic and open freeway, and it was so much more comfortable than the WRX. And holy crap the space... I do miss the acceleration of the WRX, though.  I'd hoped Cobb Tuning would have something for the 3.6, but sadly nothing.


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## slave2gravity (Mar 28, 2013)

408Racer said:


> So where do you live? Petaluma? :brent: Palo Alto? :jack: San Leandro? : puke:
> 
> :bigpimp:


Hahahahaha...the Palo Alto emoticon is awesome, I've never seen that before! :rofl: But no, none of those places...



AzWildcatG said:


> Hey, my wife and I love to party at Santana Row! I could care less with the self absorbed crowd there. We have fun doing our thing!
> 
> The Scottsdale AZ crowd if far more self absorbed and materialistic. D-bags x 1000!


Visiting and partying there is one thing...my wife is there right now with one her girlfriends as a matter of fact!


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## -=Hot|Ice=- (Jan 9, 2008)

enigma said:


> so basically you are bashing the m3 based on hearsay and your experience as a passenger?
> 
> I must have two of the most overrated bmws ever produced because the torque from the s65 and the s54 is nothing like the n55 or n20.
> 
> And if 9 out 10 drivers cannot benefit from all the stuff that the car offers, it's overrated? Gee... *add the 328i to the list since 9 of 10 328i buyers get it for the roundel as a status symbol.*


bj 1.0


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## LarryboysUDM (Sep 18, 2012)

Most overrated? Not the 3 Series....too many on the road, car mags and car reviewers give it excellent reviews.
Overpriced? If you add too many options and after the warranty runs out.


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## buckybadger (Dec 21, 2008)

woodswatchco said:


> So, a BMW is no fun and lacks personality but your front wheel drive Accord is a "beast" I'll bet.


Now from where did this come from? Stick to the topic and stop trolling...
FYI I drive a E90....

Feel a little disappointed with this forum sometimes... seems like we have a bunch of kids who just want to provoke other members for no apparent reason...


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## Justin T (Oct 10, 2006)

TacticalBassist said:


> I would agree on the new Camaro. The new Mustang is not bad (especially a certain cammed 5.0 that I see at the college from time to time), haven't really looked at the new Corvette, and the 370Z is alright. Toyota Camry can't really be overrated, it's not a driver's car. It's a mass produced people mover, and I believe it does its job well.
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using BimmerApp mobile app


+1

And AMG, seriously? I mean sure it goes fast in a straight line but many of the AMG models have never been able to properly use the power outside of the dragstrip and I am not plopping down that much for a one trick pony.


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## salesman (Oct 13, 2012)

probably the one that sticks out in my mind is the 350z/370z or maybe even the b7 audi rs4. the newer Z drives like a tank and has a TERRIBLE sounding engine, and also doesn't feel as fast in a straight line as it's numbers suggest. it certainly has a lot of grip in the turns but feels about as nimble as my 4000lb E39. as for the RS4...looks and sounds fantastic, but could quite possibly be the slowest 420hp car i've ever driven.


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## Justin T (Oct 10, 2006)

salesman said:


> probably the one that sticks out in my mind is the 350z/370z or maybe even the b7 audi rs4. the newer Z drives like a tank and has a TERRIBLE sounding engine, and also doesn't feel as fast in a straight line as it's numbers suggest. it certainly has a lot of grip in the turns but feels about as nimble as my 4000lb E39. as for the RS4...looks and sounds fantastic, *but could quite possibly be the slowest 420hp car i've ever driven.*


I thought the B7 RS4 did 0-60 in 4.5 seconds with 1/4 mile of around 13 flat...not exactly a slouch... I know the E90 M3 is faster but the RS4 is not a dog or anything...


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

The new S-Class. The design is kind of a mess with the altering lines motions, the front is blocky/clunky and not very fluid, namely the headlights and their relationship to everything around them, and the interior looks like a modern interpretation of a 70's Lincoln "Old Country Club" style (and that 2 spoke steering wheel.... never seen something so shamelessly geriatric in a car). M-B loyalists and those who have been rooting/needing M-B to put out something that looks remotely cohesive and decent after so many IMO upsetting designs lately are going hysterical over it, and I just don't get it.

Oh, and it rides on the EXACT platform from the W221 S-Class, so that means its proportions are engineered exactly as they were in 2005, i.e the overhangs haven't been shrunken and the wheelbase hasn't been extended (i.e usually with new cars even if they stay the same overall length, the wheelbase will be longer and the overhangs shorter, resulting in a more sprawled-out, athletic and tight stance, not to mention improved right dynamics).


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## Keepittrill (Jun 5, 2013)

LOL @ the people with little dick syndrome. 

"I put down more torque than an m3" 

Hahaha shut up. 


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

K-A said:


> The new S-Class. The design is kind of a mess with the altering lines motions, the front is blocky/clunky and not very fluid, namely the headlights and their relationship to everything around them, and the interior looks like a modern interpretation of a 70's Lincoln "Old Country Club" style (and that 2 spoke steering wheel.... never seen something so shamelessly geriatric in a car). M-B loyalists and those who have been rooting/needing M-B to put out something that looks remotely cohesive and decent after so many IMO upsetting designs lately are going hysterical over it, and I just don't get it.
> 
> Oh, and it rides on the EXACT platform from the W221 S-Class, so that means its proportions are engineered exactly as they were in 2005, i.e the overhangs haven't been shrunken and the wheelbase hasn't been extended (i.e usually with new cars even if they stay the same overall length, the wheelbase will be longer and the overhangs shorter, resulting in a more sprawled-out, athletic and tight stance, not to mention improved right dynamics).


I hope you're joking. The S Class is the most technologically advanced car on the market. Nothing comes close, especially from BMW.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

Most Hondas, Acuras, and Infinitis. 
All hideous and saddled with mediocre outdated technology

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

AutoUnion said:


> I hope you're joking. The S Class is the most technologically advanced car on the market. Nothing comes close, especially from BMW.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


I just think some people who seem to need it to be the most impressive thing to ever grace the roads are exaggerating it (in some cases they're practically hysterical over it). Technologically advanced is one thing (and many of those are options which the vast majority won't have). I'm basing this off of looks (no big deal IMO with of course its very nice points along with some discordant points) and I know especially M-B fans love the interior but I find it to be excessively "old school country club-ish" with an odd mating of an upper giant screen portion.... that steering wheel alone is one of the worst and most "Great-Grandpa" things I've seen in a car), chassis construction (sits on a beefed up W221 chassis with a torsional rigidity figure that is pretty much in line with the F10's), and drive- which First Drive reports so far don't seem to imply breaks much new ground from the outgoing model (a proper evolution). Magic Body Control seems to be a gimmick at this point as apparently it doesn't read potholes and jagged road surfaces, and is mainly meant for speed bumps.

It's a very impressive car and objectively will most certainly (better be) the class leading large luxury barge, but IMO the hoopla surrounding it from Benz faithful is overblown. My prediction is it won't be a standout for the S Class nameplate after it's on the road for 2-3 years, if based on how I feel it will aesthetically age alone, as I'm assuming the fundamental engineering should be top notch.


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## Kayani_1 (Dec 8, 2005)

I agree with most all of your post. Except for the fact you have it other way around. The new C7 is bang for the buck that makes it underrated not overrated. It matches the performance, looks, and interior of cars $20K-$40K more.



Gus the Sig said:


> To the original question:
> 
> Overrated cars? Where to begin: New Corvette (yes I said it),
> 
> .


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

Kayani_1 said:


> I agree with most all of your post. Except for the fact you have it other way around. The new C7 is bang for the buck that makes it underrated not overrated. It matches the performance, looks, and interior of cars $20K-$40K more.


You're confusing "value" with "overrated". The C7 Vette is a good value relative to the cars Chevrolet is aiming it at. Howver, if you read the hype, you'd get the impression that it was designed by Michelangelo, outruns a 918 around Nurburgring, and rides like Rolls Royce.

You may point to the latest C&D issue were the C7 beat a 911S in a comparison test by a few points. C&D claimed that it won even regardless of price, but ignored that it gain 19 points because the 911S was ridiculously optioned. So, those with the dough will still continue to buy the better car - the 911.


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## Kayani_1 (Dec 8, 2005)

Your argument to me is not making sense.

To me you judge a car based on what it offers at a certain price point. The C7 by no stretch is over hyped. It gets the hype cause it deserves it. It is comparable in performance, exterior, and interior to cars costing much more. Sometimes $30-$40K more. That not only makes it bang for the buck but a car that deserves the hype for offering all that it does at the price point it does.

The Porsche 911 C4S even with price as no factor is over hyped. It is slower at the track and might be marginally better in built quality and why should it not be your spending thousands more. Otherwise the engine, exterior design and interior design of the C7 and performance is all on par or better for much less. Where is the over hype???

If having money no option is your criteria of determining over hyped or under hyped then either you are a millionaire or your pockets are way deeper then mine and full of $1000 billls.

Hey why stop at over hyped 911 C4s lets get a car that would dump on 911 C4S a Ferrari 458 itallia. It makes 911 C4S according to your criteria seem over hyped. Then again why stop their lets get a Porsche 918 that would dump on Ferrari 458 itallia or better yet lets get a Pagani Zonda R that would dumpon on 918........may I continue because if we go by your theory......cause your theory is looking at a best car at any price point not over hyped at certain price point. One would end up stopping at Formula one race cars or something even more breath taking that would be ignoring cost as a criteria.

The E46 M3 got the hype cause it deserved it. It was a hell of deal for all that it offered for under $50K. The E92 M3 got it because it was that good. The E60 M5 got it because it was ground breaking for a sports sedan with its formula one derived V10 and amazing performance. Fast forward a decade and C7 is doing exactly the same as what the E46 M3 did a decade ago. No over hype just the deserved hype.

What is over hyped is the new M4/M3 they are not as ground breaking as the E46 M3 or E92 M3 was. The ditto goes for over hyped F10/F12 M5 and M6. Because after they came they did not start to win comparisons by blowing everyone's mind by offering performance at that price point that was awesome.

In fact what is over hyped is the new i8 and most new dull and boring void of feel and feedback BMW's.

As for standard Porsche 911 it was always over hyped to me. I would take the better balanced and more rewarding Cayman S any day. Now what is not over hyped but a bit over priced is the GT3. It would be awesome at $100K but still can justify its price tag at $130K. One can say the Viper was bit over hyped because C7 brings out its flaws even more dramatically. It should have been priced around $70K to not be over hyped for what it offered. To me GT-R was never over hyped because it shamed pure performance machines when it came time to take gloves off at price points way higher.

Anyways, I would take C7 in my sleep over the 911 C4S with or without money. Because if I got a 911 C4S for over $100K I would kick myself for not getting a better drivers car in Cayman S or better yet buy a used Cayman S and a new C7 for the price of over hyped 911 C4S.

On the other hand you might be happy with an over hyped 911 C4S at over $100K not me.



cwsqbm said:


> You're confusing "value" with "overrated". The C7 Vette is a good value relative to the cars Chevrolet is aiming it at. Howver, if you read the hype, you'd get the impression that it was designed by Michelangelo, outruns a 918 around Nurburgring, and rides like Rolls Royce.
> 
> You may point to the latest C&D issue were the C7 beat a 911S in a comparison test by a few points. C&D claimed that it won even regardless of price, but ignored that it gain 19 points because the 911S was ridiculously optioned. So, those with the dough will still continue to buy the better car - the 911.


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

Kayani_1 said:


> Your argument to me is not making sense.


That part is clear, and oddly enough you make my point. In your mind, the C7 is clearly better than a 911S regardless of price. Why? Because its been overhyped, as it common with new models. Go read the latest issue of Car & Driver magazine - they spew a lot of hype about why the Vette is better, but it only wins because its much cheaper. If they said the Vette was almost as good overall as the 911S, but much cheaper, that wouldn't be hype BASED ON THEIR OWN RATING SYSTEM.

You went way off base on the 911 vs 458 Italia comparison. The 911 isn't overhyped* in relation to a 458 Italia* because NO SAYS A 911 IS BETTER. The 911 may be overhyped too, not in relation to the Vette, but in relation to a Cayman. The 911 only wins because Porsche hobbles the Cayman with less powerful motors.


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## Kayani_1 (Dec 8, 2005)

No I don't make your point clear that is where you are confused. Instead showed u how your philosophy is flawed. Your theory is based on one single test from a single car magazine. Go check others where the C7 is faster on track around laguna secca then a 911 C4S not just a S.

By the way I have read that article a week ago as the mag is sitting in my living room. It is quiet evident that there is much bias on part of the author. A corvette that actually looks much better is cut down on subjective ratings of looks?????. For god sake the 911 has looked the same for last 4 decades it looks a VW Bettle on steroids and it gets more points.

The interior of the 911 design wise has no breakthrough variable instrumentation a la LF-A style. The same old generic dials from 4 decades ago. The interior in 911 comes in somber one tone instead of what BMW likes to call more individual pkg. two toned full leather costing thousands extra found in C7. The center tunnel of a 911 is lined up with more buttons then the Boeing 747, way too busy, causing you to take eyes off the road. Yet it gets the nod give me a break. 

Lets talk about engine NVH I would take the roar of a naturally aspirated V8 over a soft purr as they describe of a flat-6 911......u got to be kidding again here with utterly stupid deductions. Its as if they author was finding ways to make the legendary 911 not look so bad by just awarding points based on subjective nonsense. :thumbdwn:

How about the 5 points awarded for rear seats. Yeah like I will cross shop C7 against 911 and then buy 911 for a joke they call seats. If I was that concerned about seats I would have bought a M3 or M5.

Then the biggest load of you know what is the fact that they compare acceleration of a 7-speed manual car to the acceleration of 7-speed PDK.........what the heck. Everyone knows even identical cars with manual vs DCT. The DCT one will be a lot faster. So the legendary Porsche does not have a proper manual transmission or it is done on purpose to give P car some hope in this comparison.. Lets compare apples to apples before you start awarding points based on acceleration. Line up a manual 991 CS against a C7 manual and taillights is all Porsche would see up and down any front or back straightaway on track .

Lets not talk about hype....... because that right there .....what this mag did is the prime example of 911 hype and hysteria that drives the sales of this inferior car up and supporters like yourself love it (other wise based on in house cheaper Cayman S) this thing should be scrapped minus GT3 examples or sold at half the price....maybe even less).

LOL.....the legendary Porsche has worst steering feel, inferior interior styling, inferior exterior styling, inferior apples to apples acceleration figures, much less power, weaker sound flat-6, slower around track, and has bulldozer 305 rear tires to just keep up with a much narrower tire wearing C7 yet still loses in braking and has marginal edge in slalom and outright grip. Add the horrendous maintenance prices that Porsche charges on top of robbing you blind at the time of sales is just beyond me.

At the end lets not get carried away with or without price C7 would be my choice. This is if 911 CS was being sold for $68K fully loaded to teeth.

You can twist and turn to justify but fact of the matter is C7 is better in my opinion and that has nothing to do with the hype or no hype. 

Your article that you so stand by reeks of bias as they made it seem that 911 is worthy competitor when it is not the case. Like I said even if this thing was $68K I would rather buy a Cayman S or C7 then be seen in this thing called 911 CS. At least they had enough sense to give victory to C7.

As for 458 vs 911 yes there are people that claim it is a better overall pkg. based on price and daily use ability. The 911 hysteria/hype is that in all situations 911 is best. The base 911 is the most over hyped vehicle recently on market. Only 911 lovers disagree. In fact cars like 911 make the C7 that much more appealing. I would never be caught dead in a 911 unless it is a GT3.



cwsqbm said:


> That part is clear, and oddly enough you make my point. In your mind, the C7 is clearly better than a 911S regardless of price. Why? Because its been overhyped, as it common with new models. Go read the latest issue of Car & Driver magazine - they spew a lot of hype about why the Vette is better, but it only wins because its much cheaper. If they said the Vette was almost as good overall as the 911S, but much cheaper, that wouldn't be hype BASED ON THEIR OWN RATING SYSTEM.
> 
> You went way off base on the 911 vs 458 Italia comparison. The 911 isn't overhyped* in relation to a 458 Italia* because NO SAYS A 911 IS BETTER. The 911 may be overhyped too, not in relation to the Vette, but in relation to a Cayman. The 911 only wins because Porsche hobbles the Cayman with less powerful motors.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

FWIW, I see Kayani_1 point and agree. The C7 does deserve all the praise it has been getting. It has been properly hyped (not over or under). The 911 has always been overhyped, especially when given it's price. All of these cars are good (Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche, etc). But sometimes fanboys get carried away. Biggest fanboys are Porsche fanboys. They can do no wrong. BMW owners are in a close second (based on what people think of BMW owners). 

Mags are always trying to say how great Porsche (and BMW) is/are. In the last couple years, I think BMWs are way overhyped. Their products are more numb than ever before. I, for one, would take the C7 and a Wrangler for the same price as a M4 anyday.


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## EddieB (Jun 5, 2003)

thebmw said:


> FWIW, I see Kayani_1 point and agree. The C7 does deserve all the praise it has been getting. It has been properly hyped (not over or under). The 911 has always been overhyped, especially when given it's price. All of these cars are good (Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche, etc). But sometimes fanboys get carried away. Biggest fanboys are Porsche fanboys. They can do no wrong. BMW owners are in a close second (based on what people think of BMW owners).
> 
> Mags are always trying to say how great Porsche (and BMW) is/are. In the last couple years, I think BMWs are way overhyped. Their products are more numb than ever before. I, for one, would take the C7 and a Wrangler for the same price as a M4 anyday.


Then take one bitch.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

The "overhyped" 911 4S is Motor Trend's 2013 Best Driver's Car. The supposed "better drivers car", the excellent Cayman S, came in 5th, even the phenomenal GT-R came 6th. Bottom line - if you find the price tag on a 4S offensive, you weren't the target customer.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1311_2013_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/viewall.html


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

EddieB said:


> Then take one bitch.


Thank you for proving my point.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

swajames said:


> The "overhyped" 911 4S is Motor Trend's 2013 Best Driver's Car. The supposed "better drivers car", the excellent Cayman S, came in 5th, even the phenomenal GT-R came 6th. Bottom line - if you find the price tag on a 4S offensive, you weren't the target customer.
> 
> http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1311_2013_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/viewall.html


Yes, the same drivers that picked the Ford Focus above the Gen 5 Viper. MT drivers are complete pansies and can't control a naturally aspirated RWD drive car if their lives depended on it. No wonder they like the 911 4S with all of the nanny gadgets that make them think they are better drivers than they really are.

All of this is not to say the 911 is not a good car...it is great. But, it is overhyped. It is made out to be some gift from God, which of course, it is not.


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## Keepittrill (Jun 5, 2013)

thebmw said:


> Yes, the same drivers that picked the Ford Focus above the Gen 5 Viper. MT drivers are complete pansies and can't control a naturally aspirated RWD drive car if their lives depended on it. No wonder they like the 911 4S with all of the nanny gadgets that make them think they are better drivers than they really are.
> 
> All of this is not to say the 911 is not a good car...it is great. But, it is overhyped. It is made out to be some gift from God, which of course, it is not.


I agree...but Randy Pobst...I mean...

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

The Corvette is a GM product and it comes from a much different perspective of refinement and inherent quality than the Porsche does. I haven't sat in a C7 but those used to a high "German" standard of build and design will probably find it as cheesy as any newly launched Corvette before it, after the "hype" wears off.

Even C&D mentioned things like gigantic panel gaps between the door and dash and a flexing door panel when you pressed the window switches on the C7, classic GM lazy craftsmanship.

I'll take the 911, but do think the C7 is cool.


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## Keepittrill (Jun 5, 2013)

K-A said:


> I haven't sat in a C7 .


Frankly, that sentence should have ended there. The new Vette interior is worlds apart from anything GM has EVER made.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

thebmw said:


> Yes, the same drivers that picked the Ford Focus above the Gen 5 Viper. MT drivers are complete pansies and can't control a naturally aspirated RWD drive car if their lives depended on it. No wonder they like the 911 4S with all of the nanny gadgets that make them think they are better drivers than they really are.
> 
> All of this is not to say the 911 is not a good car...it is great. But, it is overhyped. It is made out to be some gift from God, which of course, it is not.


Ah, so _you're_ the guy that Randy Pobst has on speed dial for whenever he needs some performance driving tips.... 

The article clearly documents why the Viper placed last, and it notes that the car was originally a few places higher until the quality, performance and safety issues got in the way.

As for the 911, the rear wheel drive GT3 would have won this competition had it been available. With that said, the C4S won because it is a beautifully well-engineered and high-quality car. Quality doesn't come cheap. Those of us who have written checks for a 911 know this. They also know that the car is AWD for performance reasons, not because its owners need training wheels... I'm sure that they would all welcome driving lessons from an expert such as you though :rofl:

Either way - whatever you think of MT, they - and Randy Pobst - got the right answer. What's more, EVO (easily the best and most performance oriented auto publication) has chosen the 911 as it's car of the year more times than any other model.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

Keepittrill said:


> Frankly, that sentence should have ended there. The new Vette interior is worlds apart from anything GM has EVER made.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Yep. The C7 is an awesome car :thumbup:


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

Keepittrill said:


> Frankly, that sentence should have ended there. The new Vette interior is worlds apart from anything GM has EVER made.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


I hope so. It costs about the same as my 535i and frankly I'd love to have it in the running for my next car (without having to even go up the price bracket, at that).

I know for almost certain that design will make me want to vomit in about 3-4 years, as gimmicky, over-stated designs always do (I LOVED the Camaro when it first came out and now find it hard to look at sometimes), but right now it's simply crazy and looks awesome in its way thus and will probably get the attention of a Ferrari for a couple of years (until what it did to generate that reaction prematurely dates it).

The 911 is a different animal, it's the anti-Stingray (and the Stingray is the anti-911). The 911 is an inherent classic, it doesn't do gimmicks, or follow trends, it simply is on its own plane, it will always look the same because it is one of the the only consumer products that practically can. It defines "timeless", it's wanted and sets trends without even trying to. That's why I'll always be a 911>Vette guy.

You can get a 911 today and have a design that's still relevant in 20 years, which will not be the same for this Vette who is very much "today" and will look so in the future (i.e "yesterday" in the future). IMO that's why 911's carry such ridiculous price premiums, in part because you have one of the only modern cars who you are certain will be a future classic, and even more-importantly on a short-term basis: Something that won't age or date for a long, long time.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

Agree, K-A. With that said, I have to say I really like the C7. I think the design is stunning, the interior does indeed seem to a leap ahead of the C6 and the price/performance ratio is hard to beat.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

I can't wait to test it out. Like I said, as much as I'd be embarrassed to say "I drive a Corvette", I'll be considering one for my next car. Though I know a design like that which initially drops my jaw due to its overstatedness will have a reverse effect in due time where I can't look at it anymore (or maybe the C7 will defy logic and be the first one like this to not do that.... doubtful).

.... Maybe by that time lightly used 991 CS prices will have come down enough.


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## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

kinda sad that anyone would be "embarrased" to drive a corvette

actually it's pathetic


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## Cvaria (Sep 26, 2011)

The vette has been the "old man's" sports carsas long as I have been alive. Synonymous with sudden man-ponytails/bald spot combs, earrings, young trashy girlfriends/mistresses.... midlife crisis. And they have sucked for years... tail happy spinout kings. 

The vette is a straight line beast like all the muscle cars.. they are terrible in the curves though. The c7 is said to have fixed all thus and the slalom s look good. But id take a base model 911 c2 over a vette any day. 

Im sure the vette is nice, I'll go play with one. But I'll never buy one of those things. The old fire breathing porsche s willvstill put it to shame. 

M4 vs c7/wrangler jk? 
They are all completely different vehicles with completely different design and performance intentions. If you are looking at it from a cost pov.... the m4 base is 60k... the c7 base is 50k and the jeep base is 18k... that 10k more for you combo... how aboat a 997s and your jeep. Better deal. Vettes are ugly anyway



sent from my mind. Mentoc the Mindtaker


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## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

vettes have not been terrible in the curves for quite some time, talk about sterotypes someone should worry less about that stuff


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## Keepittrill (Jun 5, 2013)

mrblahh said:


> vettes have not been terrible in the curves for quite some time, talk about sterotypes someone should worry less about that stuff


Yeah, who said corvettes are terrible in the corners?

Don't Corvettes utterly dominate the LM GT1 class?

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Cvaria (Sep 26, 2011)

Z06+curve=funeral

sent from my mind. Mentoc the Mindtaker


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## Keepittrill (Jun 5, 2013)

Cvaria said:


> Z06+curve=funeral
> 
> sent from my mind. Mentoc the Mindtaker


Have you driven a Z06? I drove a ZR1 at Bondurant here in AZ and that took the corners pretty damn well.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Cvaria (Sep 26, 2011)

I did, loved the qnx infotainment but, tail was begging to get loose. My father still has it. And his earring 

I think you missed where I said the slalom on the c7 looked good. But id never buy one. I have no love for Vettes. The modern ones just look trashy when they age. Im glad they stopped the plastic heavy interiors.




sent from my mind. Mentoc the Mindtaker


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

mrblahh said:


> kinda sad that anyone would be "embarrased" to drive a corvette
> 
> actually it's pathetic


Take it up with the horrible demographic-stereotype that have tarnished the name and idea that is "Corvette". Yes, 911 owners have their own stereotype.... but Vette's just have a trashy stigma.

Do I buy cars for stigma? No, but there's a reason they get a stigma and it weighs on your mind as now you inevitably identify or share identification with said stigma.


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## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

what's the stima about bmw owners? Ohh right

no self respecting car guy would diss the performance of a c6 or c7, turn in your card, if you ever had one


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

mrblahh said:


> what's the stima about bmw owners? Ohh right
> 
> no self respecting car guy would diss the performance of a c6 or c7, turn in your card, if you ever had one


I'd rather be associated with the BMW stigma.

And where did I diss the performance? I respect Vette performance, best out there on a value scale by far (no one really comes close).

The BMW brand, quality and ideals fit in more with me. The Corvette and GM brand and ideals don't, I'd almost feel awkward being a guy who "drives a Corvette" because it just doesn't seem "me". I wouldn't NOT avoid buying a great car because of that, but it's just how it is.


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## Cvaria (Sep 26, 2011)

K-A said:


> I'd rather be associated with the BMW stigma.
> 
> And where did I diss the performance? I respect Vette performance, best out there on a value scale by far (no one really comes close).
> 
> The BMW brand, quality and ideals fit in more with me. The Corvette and GM brand and ideals don't, I'd almost feel awkward being a guy who "drives a Corvette" because it just doesn't seem "me". I wouldn't NOT avoid buying a great car because of that, but it's just how it is.


Just admit it... you don't wear a fanny pak or party/Hawaiian shirts. Theres no shame in it....

I'll say it. I dont have a ponytail. So im not driving that tacky car.

You know who aspires to owning a vette... Dale, the mullet guy. That's who.

My dad likes his mullet mobile and it is fast.. horrifyingly fast. But it has no class

sent from my mind. Mentoc the Mindtaker


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

Cvaria said:


> Just admit it... you don't wear a fanny pak or party/Hawaiian shirts. Theres no shame in it....
> 
> I'll say it. I dont have a ponytail. So im not driving that tacky car.
> 
> ...


Hahaha.

Indeed, seems the worldwide stereotype for a Vette owner is sandals, gold necklace, a little chest hair out, and white hair.

I'll say I don't look nor act like the stereotype of either a Vette or BMW owner at all, but I find it humorous to make fun of myself being a "BMW driver" in context with the general stigma/stereotype this brand has. I'd find it less funny (and more scary in case it became true ) to be associated to the classic Vette stigma.


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## EddieB (Jun 5, 2003)

K-A said:


> Hahaha.
> 
> Indeed, seems the worldwide stereotype for a Vette owner is sandals, gold necklace, a little chest hair out, and white hair.
> 
> I'll say I don't look nor act like the stereotype of either a Vette or BMW owner at all, but I find it humorous to make fun of myself being a "BMW driver" in context with the general stigma/stereotype this brand has. I'd find it less funny (and more scary in case it became true ) to be associated to the classic Vette stigma.


Just curious and no disrespect meant, but just wondering why you post here or are you as active on the F10 boards as well.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

EddieB said:


> Just curious and no disrespect meant, but just wondering why you post here or are you as active on the F10 boards as well.


"Here" meaning this thread or this forum? I'm most "active" in the F10 section.


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