# Do stick shifts have a future? BMW's view



## user1 (Oct 5, 2005)

Tom Purves, CEO of BMW North America, was quoted as saying "There's a great affection for the traditional manual gearbox among many enthusiasts. But only in the United States. Europe is more focused on Formula One, with the faster paddle shifters. In the U.S., the pinnacle of motor sports is NASCAR, and they have four on the floor. The Hollywood image of a race car driver is him shifting down here [pointing to the floor]".1

Why is it American's are stuck on manual shifters over SMG and paddle shifting? I understand our "hollywood image" of racing makes many of us choose tradition over new technology. Are there any studies that can prove one type of transmission is better than another? Maybe someone knows of a study where they tested which is faster, smoother, more reliable, less movable/breakable parts, better for the engine.

1 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/051028/28rickspicks.htm


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## mapezzul (Jun 14, 2005)

The DSG system is a great thing and is the future. I much rather drive that, than a stick, much faster but until we get it here in more than just Audi's my only choice is the stick. The F1 transmissions are also a thing of beauty but left to expensive makes at this time, in a few years the stick shift will be a thing of the past. I for one would buy an F1 or DSG if it was available (but it is not), note how I never said I would buy an SMG...... As for NASCAR, go fast turn left wow what fun :thumbdwn: They market that towards a certain customer, usually not German car fans, and that is the majority of our countries population. All I know is the only Nascar race anywhere near me(300 miles away) is in the middle of nowhere at Watkins Glen and it is not a go fast turn left race, more of windy course and where I watch Porsches and Ferraris as well...so that race is not a norm for NASCAR and it happens to not be where the majority of NASCAR fans are, coincidence??? I think not. Nascar has nothing on an Audi R8 or a BMW Williams car.... that is the future, The US tends to stick in the past, appealing to the baby boomers sense of childhood etc. Where foreign companies appeal to technology and the future; part of the reason most US manufacturers have gone retro.


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## SpeedFreak! (May 1, 2005)

user1 said:


> Tom Purves, CEO of BMW North America, was quoted as saying "There's a great affection for the traditional manual gearbox among many enthusiasts. But only in the United States. Europe is more focused on Formula One, with the faster paddle shifters. In the U.S., the pinnacle of motor sports is NASCAR, and they have four on the floor. The Hollywood image of a race car driver is him shifting down here [pointing to the floor]".1
> 
> Why is it American's are stuck on manual shifters over SMG and paddle shifting? I understand our "hollywood image" of racing makes many of us choose tradition over new technology. Are there any studies that can prove one type of transmission is better than another? Maybe someone knows of a study where they tested which is faster, smoother, more reliable, less movable/breakable parts, better for the engine.
> 
> 1 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/051028/28rickspicks.htm


We Americans... are control freaks... plain and simple.


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## obLu (Jan 10, 2002)

Um .... yeah, I was all excited to get an SMG until they *PULLED IT* from the options list!  Idiots. No wonder we don't like it as much ... we can't f&cking GET IT! Of course I'd be the first one pissing and moaning when it was always breaking.

I think it's more that German brands don't have a great track record with new, complicated electronics systems. Americans are conditioned that the most simplistic system is going to be the most reliable one. If it's got gears, cogs and levers, the Germans can do that real good. If it's electronics and software, better leave it to Honda or Toyota.

I still would've bought one ....


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Since the US M5 will get a manual option, I'd say they are here to stay.  I never saw the point of SMG ... just buy an automatic.


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## ViperSSD (Jul 16, 2005)

ObD said:


> Since the US M5 will get a manual option, I'd say they are here to stay.  I never saw the point of SMG ... just buy an automatic.


I though SMG had faster shifts than a manual tranny


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## akhbhaat (Apr 29, 2003)

USNews said:


> We discussed the virtues of the two transmission types while driving BMW's new M5, a superpowered version of its 5-series sedan with a 500-horsepower V-12 engine.


Oops.


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## glenmal (Jan 17, 2005)

*It does*

And it is faster than the Italian beauties...


ViperSSD said:


> I though SMG had faster shifts than a manual tranny


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## glenmal (Jan 17, 2005)

*M5*

[It is a V10 not V12QUOTE=akhbhaat]Oops.[/QUOTE]


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

The main reason for the future demise of the stick is emissions. Every time a manual transmission is shifted, there is an uncontrolled burp of emissions. Automatics and SMG type trannies can talk to the ECM and coordinate so as to avoid the outgassing.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

ObD said:


> ...I never saw the point of SMG ... just buy an automatic.


I'm guessing you've never really driven an SMG equipped car, at least not for any length of time, or you wouldn't compare it to an auto. SMG is nothing at all like an automatic. The only thing it has in common is lack of a clutch pedal, but the similarities end right there. But it does have plenty in common with a manual transmission, because it is one, albeit with the SMG hardware/software controller added.

I have SMG II and it has been every bit as engaging, responsive, and high performance as a standard manual, if not more so; and I've driven manuals for nearly 30 years (with a 3 year hiatus in a 530iA). Furthermore, SMG II really shines one the track where you can get wicked fast shifts, and never have to worry about missing gears on a downshift.


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## Rascal (Nov 1, 2004)

:stupid:

I have an SMG on my 325. My prior car was also a 325 with manual. I can tell you it behaves EXACTLY like a true "manual" tranny. The only thing automatic is the clutch. As far as the "automatic" mode, I NEVER use it. It doesn't work well because it is not an automatic. When they asked BMW why they do not employ a dual clutch system like Audi's they replied the Audi system is too much like an automatic.
I have not had one problem with my SMG. Would I get it again. It would be a tough call. There is something engaging about a true manual, clutch pedal and all.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

Rascal said:


> :stupid:
> 
> There is something engaging about a true manual, clutch pedal and all.


:stupid: Yes, literally, You have to engage the clutch and actually shift the gears.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

mapezzul said:


> The DSG system is a great thing and is the future. I much rather drive that, than a stick, much faster but until we get it here in more than just Audi's my only choice is the stick. The F1 transmissions are also a thing of beauty but left to expensive makes at this time, in a few years the stick shift will be a thing of the past. I for one would buy an F1 or DSG if it was available (but it is not), note how I never said I would buy an SMG...... .


Have you EVER driven a car w/ DSG in it??  If you did, you wouldn't be singing this tune :bustingup .

mapezzul, Sounds like you got some bad info from reading some clowns posting his opnion online. Yeah, I read that same post, and the rumor of how DSG is superior over SMG burned like wildfire  . Its amazning to me how people post on line and pretend that they know more than they really do. Its pathetic :tsk: Don't believe everything you read a message board.

Ask this question.... if DSG is that good... why is it NOT being implemente into a race car, such as F1?? :dunno: Do a lil' digging and you will have your answer my friend 

The SMG is excellent and will run circle around other tranny currently on market. That is why I order them w/ cars 

cheers,

beewang :bigpimp:


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

ViperSSD said:


> I though SMG had faster shifts than a manual tranny


Since I don't race for a living who cares? SMG is for F1 poseurs.  Admitted to by Purves in the article.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

xspeedy said:


> The main reason for the future demise of the stick is emissions.


A manual will get better fuel economy mooting your point. The computer can be groomed to the EPA test, but even the gov't admits its EPA test is flawed. The market will demand manuals, and there shall be.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

ObD said:


> Since I don't race for a living who cares? SMG is for F1 poseurs.  Admitted to by Purves in the article.


In that case, until you actually experience true high performance driving on a track, then your comment is pretty meaningless. As far I'm concerned, the true value of a BMW is best judged by pushing it towards its limits. This is where SMG II shines, but it's also great on the street (although the Auto mode is worthless and could have been omitted altogether). It has absolutely nothing to do with posing as anything.

I don't have anything to prove by having a mechanical clutch pedal. And when I attend DEs nobody even cares who has SMG and who has 6MT. Other things matter more.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Car manufacturers will dictate any type of transmission they see fit, whining won't help the case.

It looks like this thread will turn to a pro SMG vs contra SMG debate. I'm happy that SMG is still optional (at least yet)


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> Car manufacturers will dictate any type of transmission they see fit, whining won't help the case.


The market dictates. If BMW ever drops manuals they are toast.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

ObD said:


> *The market dictates*. If BMW ever drops manuals they are toast.


The manufacturers are dictating, not the market. There are already small cars on the market that are only available with automatic or semi-automatic transmissions, manual is not even optional.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

Alex Baumann said:


> The manufacturers are dictating, not the market. There are already small cars on the market that are only available with automatic or semi-automatic transmissions, manual is not even optional.


Alex, the market _always_ dictates. Sometimes based on consumer demand, sometimes based on governmental edict, which affects consumer demand.

(It reminds me of a friend who told me that he thought developers were crazy to be building on the San Andreas faultline in Palmdale. I told him that the developers weren't crazy - because they would be able to sell the houses -- and did. The buyers, on the other hand, were certifiably nuts. :loco: )


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## jelliotlevy (Aug 12, 2005)

Yeah, yeah. I would love to get 325i or 330i with SMG. But let the record show that SMG for the E90 is dead for this model year. D - E - A - D... How sad.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Malibubimmer said:


> Alex, the market _always_ dictates. Sometimes based on consumer demand, sometimes based on governmental edict, which affects consumer demand.
> 
> (It reminds me of a friend who told me that he thought developers were crazy to be building on the San Andreas faultline in Palmdale. I told him that the developers weren't crazy - because they would be able to sell the houses -- and did. The buyers, on the other hand, were certifiably nuts. :loco: )


I have BA and Economics major, I hear you. But during the last decade, I came to the conclusion that the manufacturers are steering the market with their decisions. For example, the current 3-Series became as big as an E39. Why? Because it had to make room for the coming 1-Series, which is the new entry-level BMW. And this new entry-level costs as much as the former 3-Series. See what I mean? The idea with the 1-Series was a bold move, but it worked. It worked because the blue-white propeller badge was at its strongest position in the history of the company.

Even the price is not being dictated by the market anymore (contrary to what we have been thought in the college. But this was in late 80s, early 90s. maybe it's been changed now) There's a huge move towards niche marketing at the moment. The car manufacturers are defining new body forms and demanding extraorbitant prices for them, of course, when the brand is strong enough (see above).


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## M3Mad (Feb 7, 2004)

user1 said:


> Why is it American's are stuck on manual shifters over SMG and paddle shifting? I understand our "hollywood image" of racing makes many of us choose tradition over new technology.


True paddle-shift systems like that offered in the M3 are faster than manual systems - no dispute. The M3 SMG system, at its fastest, can swap cogs in 80 milliseconds. Michael Schumacher can change gears with a manual in 200 milliseconds. There have also been tests where a variety of drivers were asked to do the fastest quarter-mile runs that they could in both a manual M3 and an SMG equipped M3 - all the drivers were significantly faster in the SMG car.

For me, at least, the reason I prefer a manual is because the driving situations I am in most often don't involve coming down from 150mph into a left-handed cork-screw and then accelerating away hard. Not much really happens in terms of _daily driving_ that is exciting. Having a manual adds some excitement to that drive. It's simply more engaging and more fun playing with a lever in the middle of the car than buttions or paddles on or behind the steering wheel. Plus, there is that great sense of achievement when you pop off the perfect shift.


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## ic (Apr 1, 2005)

beewang said:


> Ask this question.... if DSG is that good... why is it NOT being implemente into a race car, such as F1?? :dunno:


It is because DSG pre-select the next gear. It won't allow in any race that requires the driver to choose the gear no matter fully manual / F1 / SMG type. BTW, I'm arguing DSG/SMG is better. I'm just saying the reason why DSG is not allow in racing in general.

DSG/F1/SMG for sure is faster than any human can shift and the most important point "consistency" especially for racing. For me, I will choose manual for involvment of driving pleasure. As I'm not prof for racing, I don't need any second of possible faster than others. All I need is driving fun even in the track.


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## Cowboy Bebop (May 17, 2003)

the answer to that question is just plain obvious... NO.
end of discussion.

the real question we all would like answered is just how long before that time arrives?
Maybe 10 years, or it coulld be 15, but it will get here.


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

I'm a little late to this party but thought I would toss in my thoughts anyway...  

While I love my manual tranny, and will try to drive one to the day I die, I would like to give an SMG a try. I would probably like it ,and would embrace it if a true manual is no longer available.

What I DON'T want to happen is for the SMG idea to get lost and watered down into nothing more than an a shiftable slushbox with paddles. It seems today there are boat loads of cars out there with paddle shifting trannies that are nothing more than tarted up automatic slush boxes with a torque converter instead of a proper tranny with a clutch(s).


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

I guess Mr. Purvis forgets that many BMWs are campaigned in ROAD RACING here in the US. Why didnt he use them as an example?

Is he seriously drawing a comparison between BMW customers who choose manual trans to nascar fans? :tsk: :thumbdwn: 

Was he trying to alienate core enthusiasts of the brand or just sell more automatics and SMGs? :dunno:


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

beewang said:


> Ask this question.... if DSG is that good... why is it NOT being implemente into a race car, such as F1?? :dunno: Do a lil' digging and you will have your answer my friend


I am pretty sure audi and/or porsche used a DSG like transmission during the 80s for rally racing :dunno:


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

ObD said:


> The market dictates. If BMW ever drops manuals they are toast.


I doubt it. They just will lose their advantage. People will still buy them, just a different set of people.

I'd be very interested in SMG. What I've read, though, suggests that the versions BMW has that I'd want are only in the M cars, which, lamentably, I can't afford. I'm pretty sure by the time I buy my next one, it will be ready, assuming it's an option in the US.

My mom, who's a real stick-shift devotee, despite having both ankles and both knees replaced, is quite excited about the SMG concept. I hope she'll get one in her next car.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Its kind of funny that the US-- always seen as the land of automatics, is now being portrayed as lovers of manual transmissions. Kind of ironic, eh? I'm proud of my fellw US manual lovers who are proving to be such thorns in BMW's side.  Who would've thunk?

I don't understand why its so hard for BMW or anyone else to grasp why we'd prefer regular manuals. Its about the experience. Sure, we could go faster w/ SMG or DSG, but without the same experience. I guess europeans generally don't care as much because a manual trans is still seen as something you get for economy reasons--so there's no love lost by going to SMG. But, theyre so rare in the US, that most people here probably buy them for the experience. 

If you're going to race or do seriouis competition, by all means, get the SMG. But, if like many, you just want to have a good driving experience, a regular manual is still nice to have.


I realy doubt it has anything to do w/ Nascar vs Formula 1, btw.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

As for the "good driving experience" of a manual, I'm not missing that at all driving SMG II. It's just as much a thrill to me, on the track or off. And I drove manuals for nearly 30 yrs., starting with a 70 AMC Hornet 3-on-the-tree (followed by a 4 sp 72 Datsun 240Z).

Also, the SMG II is common enough in the U.S. If m3forum is any indication, SMG II vs. 6MT M3s in the US are divided about 50/50. I could be way off, but I think BMW wouldn't have kept the SMG II on the US M3 if it didn't sell.

I agree the choice has little or nothing to do with aligning with NASCAR or F1.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Tanning machine said:


> People will still buy them, just a different set of people


Most BMW's are already sold without a stick or sport package. Who out of that crowd is going to buy an M (think more profit)? The fact that an M5 manual is going to be offered in the USA speaks volumes. BMW isn't going to out Lexus Lexus or out Honda Honda. While I understand the need for a bigger umbrella to get an economy of scale, that umbrella ought to at least cover those that brung ya to the dance.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

Everybody loves manuals. A real thrilling experience, that is until you are confronted with the joys of city traffic. Then everyone wishes they had an automatic which is why 80% of all BMW's sold in the US are auto's.

I suspect most of the 80% once had manuals, and then moved away due to driving convenience. :dunno:



ObD said:


> Most BMW's are already sold without a stick or sport package. Who out of that crowd is going to buy an M (think more profit)? The fact that an M5 manual is going to be offered in the USA speaks volumes. BMW isn't going to out Lexus Lexus or out Honda Honda. While I understand the need for a bigger umbrella to get an economy of scale, that umbrella ought to at least cover those that brung ya to the dance.


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## Bob Clevenger (Dec 17, 2004)

chuck92103 said:


> Everybody loves manuals. A real thrilling experience, that is until you are confronted with the joys of city traffic. Then everyone wishes they had an automatic which is why 80% of all BMW's sold in the US are auto's.
> 
> I suspect most of the 80% once had manuals, and then moved away due to driving convenience. :dunno:


No, _everybody_ does not like manuals. Here in the US, most drivers under the age of about 45 or 50 don't even know *how* to drive a manual. Heck, I took driver training in 1960 and they didn't even have one training car with a manual trans, not even ONE!

Now there are many who do love the manual trans, such as I, and I still love it in city traffic (don't love the traffic, though!). So be careful about claiming what *everybody* likes or dislikes.

As far as the 50-50 mix of SMG _vs_. 6MT in new M3s, it can partly be ascribed to marketing. When there is an SMG M3 sitting on the lot waiting for you to take it home with you, but you are told that you'd have to order a 6MT M3 and WAIT for delivery it influences your decision.

Does the manual transmission as we know it (with the foot-operated clutch) have a future? Yes, but the question is how long is that future. Almost all technology becomes obsolete. I am sort of lucky in that I don't think I will live long enough to see the day when the MT is completely extinct.

The MT is now relegated to a niche market. If you don't believe that, just try to buy one from most auto manufacturers. 
Even on a performance-marketed car such as the Chrysler 300C you can not get a manual trans. It isn't made. 
Highest powered Crossfire? Auto only. 
Jaguar Estate Wagon? Auto only for the US.

The auto makers don't think that they can sell enough manuals to the lazy-a**ed Americans like Mr. & Mrs. Joe Sixpack (who don't know HOW to drive a stick and don't want to learn --- "Hey,why shift if you don't have to?") to cover the cost of having another engine/trans combination emissions-certified. They may be right.


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## grahambishop (Mar 27, 2005)

When we ordered our 6 in January of 2004, I ordered the SMG. When the car came in, in April, I picked it up at the BMW dealer in Kaiserslautern, Germany, and called my wife and said the car is great except they ( you may insert an adjective her for your choosing) up the order because it has a 6 speed manual transmission. My wife said that it was time to 'fess up; she had changed the order because she didn't want no stinkin' slushbox. So, being a true MAN, I put my foot down and said GREAT IDEA! And in retrospect, after two minutes in the car, I am glad she changed it. And it ROCKS! And Iam a 63 year young fart and I can handle it. So enjoy the manuals guys! Manuals rock. I blow away 99.9999% of what I come across and I love it! Hoo Hah! :rofl:


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

chuck92103 said:


> Everybody loves manuals. A real thrilling experience, that is until you are confronted with the joys of city traffic. Then everyone wishes they had an automatic which is why 80% of all BMW's sold in the US are auto's.


Amen. And you, Chuck, live in beautiful San Diego which, from a traffic perspective, is LA in 1965.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Malibubimmer said:


> Amen. And you, Chuck, live in beautiful San Diego which, from a traffic perspective, is LA in 1965.


 :soapbox: 
you been to San Diego recently, north county I5 during rush hour or on the weekends aint pretty, not as bad as LA but it is getting close. Definitely multiple times worst then when I moved here as a kid in 1979. We are the next The OC, just need to sell off Pendleton and join us together.

back on subject, SMG does not have a torque convert and is not a slushy  :soapbox:


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## 2006330i (Oct 17, 2005)

I'd switch to an SMG in a New York minute if it was available. I'm in an MT for the control of the engine, not the physical act of depressing the clutch and pushing the stick around. I think that the MT will go away completely very, very soon. There are just too few people who want only an MT - complete with a clutch and stick.


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## LA525iT (Oct 27, 2003)

I buy cars with MTs because I dont like buying new ATs at 80k-100k.


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## Cowboy Bebop (May 17, 2003)

you can think whatever you want, but the bottom line is that the Manual tranny is a dinosaur and it's days are seriously numbered... anyone who doesn't see this is delusional.
it is obsolute technology that will go the way of rotory dial phones very soon, and definately within my lifetime and I am way old!
whether you wish it or no is of no concern.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

The reality is this.

All you folks who have manuals/SMG's, good for you! Enjoy!

All you folks who have auto's, good for you Enjoy!

However, let's be clear. If it were not for the fact 80% of sales are autos, there would be no manuals. BMW would be out of business in the US.

The 80% auto buyers give BMW a chance to sell manuals in this country.

So be kind to us auto drivers. You rely on us more than you will ever know. :thumbup:


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

As long as there are Germans who live in America, stick shifts will have a future here.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Malibubimmer said:


> As long as there are Germans who live in America, stick shifts will have a future here.


I´m german and I´m tired of manuals. The only reason I drive one is because I HATE torque converters. Give me SMG anytime. I loved the SMG on my E46. I wish BMW would offer it on the E90. If they had, I´d say goodby to the clutch pedal without hesitation.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Jeff_DML said:


> I am pretty sure audi and/or porsche used a DSG like transmission during the 80s for rally racing :dunno:


True. Audi used it on a few Rallying protoypes (and I believe on the Pikes Peak Sport Quattro)

Porsche even ran a PDK (Porsche Doppel Kupplung) in LeMans in the 80´s. But it DNF


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## GimpyMcFarlan (Aug 13, 2002)

Cowboy Bebop said:


> it is obsolute technology that will go the way of rotory dial phones very soon, and definately within my lifetime and I am way old!
> whether you wish it or no is of no concern.


Careful with that analogy... Take a look at just about any home telephone and you will find a selector switch that says TONE / PULSE. Tone dialing has been the "norm" for decades but that doesn't meant there are pulse dialers out there somewhere. :stickpoke


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## Cowboy Bebop (May 17, 2003)

none of my phones do, but that is neither here nor there, I do still have one luddite friend who has a rotory dial phone!

the statement was exaggerated for effect of course, but it won't be that long till no manufacturer will offer a Manual on Any car.
I still have 3 manual cars and no Autos and hate the though of not having some form of manual in the future... but something like the SMG and DSG are just fine with me.


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## wag-zhp (Apr 8, 2004)

While I love the involvement that is provided by a traditional manual transmission, with a clutch pedal, I would have ordered my current car with the SMG if it were an option. (I'm still don't know why BMW didn't offer SMG with the ZHP package...) 

With the lockup torque converters in modern automatics, they are getting to be very efficient and comming very close to providing acceleration performance that rivals a manual transmission. The down side is that they don't provide the same physical link between the engine and rear wheels that you get with a manual gearbox, and thus don't provide the precise ability to control the attitude of a car in a corner with the gas pedal. They are getting close with the new shiftable automatics, but they aren't there yet. Even BMW's steptronic will automatically upshift if you bump into the rev-limiter. Do that in a corner at your tire's limit of adhesion and you will be in the weeds. For that reason, I will not by an auto-equiped car that I intend to drive in a spirited manner.


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## ic (Apr 1, 2005)

Cowboy Bebop said:


> the statement was exaggerated for effect of course, but it won't be that long till no manufacturer will offer a Manual on Any car.


I think it will be EVERY long (>10 years) for ALL manufacturers not to offer manual. A lot of manufacturers don't offer SMG/F1 type of transmission yet. And the customers of the boy racer cars (Civic SiR, WRX STi, EVO, etc...) want manaul if no SMG/F1 available or the customers of economic cars want manual for economic reasons (cheaper to buy, better acceleration especially for hwy merge, better fuel mileage if drive properly, less "potential" problems, etc...).


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

ic said:


> I think it will be EVERY long (>10 years) for ALL manufacturers not to offer manual. A lot of manufacturers don't offer SMG/F1 type of transmission yet. And the customers of the boy racer cars (Civic SiR, WRX STi, EVO, etc...) want manaul if no SMG/F1 available or the customers of economic cars want manual for economic reasons (cheaper to buy, better acceleration especially for hwy merge, better fuel mileage if drive properly, less "potential" problems, etc...).


next Evo, X, is supposedly going to have a SMG type transmission. You can get a slushy evo in Japan :yikes: . I prefer a manual(but I have never driven a SMG)


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## ic (Apr 1, 2005)

Jeff_DML said:


> next Evo, X, is supposedly going to have a SMG type transmission. You can get a slushy evo in Japan :yikes: . I prefer a manual(but I have never driven a SMG)


Does it mean it is their 1st generation? It takes time with experiences to make it better and it takes time to face out manual if its ever happen.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

ic said:


> Does it mean it is their 1st generation? It takes time with experiences to make it better and it takes time to face out manual if its ever happen.


yep but it could be licensed/designed from another company :dunno:


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## Cowboy Bebop (May 17, 2003)

that may be true IC, but those manufacturers that do not offer SMG/F1 type trannies do sell substantially more Autos than Manuals.

I never said that they would abandon manual for SMG, I only said that I hoped that this type would still be an option. We will be lucky if there is ANY option to Auto!

you are probably not old enought to remember the first gas crisis in the early 70's. California prohibited the Manual tranny for many years at that time simple to reduce fuel milage... a rediculous assertion for sure, but that is what they did.
you had to buy a car in Nevada or Oregon to get a Manual.

the point is that whether you or I want it, the Manual will go the way of the dinosaur, that is not open to debate.
the only question is when?

last year I took one of my other cars in for service (warranty) and the person who drove the cars around for pick-up sheepishly approached me and asked if I minded bringing my car around as she COULD NOT DRIVE A STICK!

how is this possible at a dealership!

that is just the way it is moving and it can not be stopped.


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## Passenger (Apr 26, 2005)

Stick shift is still the norm here in the UK.
The thing that made me chuckle was a US friend's comment when my wife collected him from Manchester airport in our manual car 
" wow, you drive a _stick shift_...I'm impressed ! "


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## ic (Apr 1, 2005)

Cowboy Bebop said:


> that may be true IC, but those manufacturers that do not offer SMG/F1 type trannies do sell substantially more Autos than Manuals.


That's true and that's why I raise the specific examples like boy racer cars and economic cars. I have a co-worker who bought a manual civic (base model) because it is $1K (5%)cheaper, better fuel mileage and better control for hwy merge as there is not much power.



Cowboy Bebop said:


> the point is that whether you or I want it, the Manual will go the way of the dinosaur, that is not open to debate.
> the only question is when?


Unless you said the "when" is 30 years later or may be 20 years later. In this case, may be, may be not. Otherwise, I don't think it will happen that soon.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Here in Los Angeles, it is very difficult to find a BMW, especially a 5 series, with a anything but Steptronic. Dealers used to order stick shifts, and they generally just sat on their lots. Nowadays, they just don't order them at all.

At some point, BMW may well decided that the lack of interest doesn't justify the cost of importing, support and certification.



user1 said:


> Tom Purves, CEO of BMW North America, was quoted as saying "There's a great affection for the traditional manual gearbox among many enthusiasts. But only in the United States. Europe is more focused on Formula One, with the faster paddle shifters. In the U.S., the pinnacle of motor sports is NASCAR, and they have four on the floor. The Hollywood image of a race car driver is him shifting down here [pointing to the floor]".1
> 
> Why is it American's are stuck on manual shifters over SMG and paddle shifting? I understand our "hollywood image" of racing makes many of us choose tradition over new technology. Are there any studies that can prove one type of transmission is better than another? Maybe someone knows of a study where they tested which is faster, smoother, more reliable, less movable/breakable parts, better for the engine.
> 
> 1 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/051028/28rickspicks.htm


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## Cowboy Bebop (May 17, 2003)

ic said:


> Unless you said the "when" is 30 years later or may be 20 years later. In this case, may be, may be not. Otherwise, I don't think it will happen that soon.


Are you kidding?
We may all be prescient enough to see that there will come a day... none of us are psychic enough, or crazy enough to venture just when.


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## LA525iT (Oct 27, 2003)

Robert A said:


> Here in Los Angeles, it is very difficult to find a BMW, especially a 5 series, with a anything but Steptronic. Dealers used to order stick shifts, and they generally just sat on their lots. Nowadays, they just don't order them at all.
> 
> At some point, BMW may well decided that the lack of interest doesn't justify the cost of importing, support and certification.


I found my 5 speed, 5 series * Touring * sitting unloved and unwanted on a dealer's lot in the SF Valley. But that works to the enthusiasts advantage, because I was able to get a heckuva deal.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

ic said:


> That's true and that's why I raise the specific examples like boy racer cars and economic cars. I have a co-worker who bought a manual civic (base model) because it is $1K (5%)cheaper, better fuel mileage and better control for hwy merge as there is not much power.


I have some current/ex coworkers who are the same way, by a manual accord for example because cheaper and better gas mileage.


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## drmusic (Nov 9, 2005)

It seems odd to me that no one has mentioned what I noticed recently while car shopping: manual transmissions most often were "standard" and autos were usually a higher cost "option". If I didn't know better (tongue firmly in cheek), I would think that meant people most often would opt for MT. In any case, my preference for MT has often netted me a better deal, and I'm happy with that. I've never experienced SMG, but wouldn't mind trying it. My wife's car is a VW Passat with Steptronic, and I hate it. As much as I dislike auto transmission, it's better than that Steptronic.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

drmusic said:


> It seems odd to me that no one has mentioned what I noticed recently while car shopping: manual transmissions most often were "standard" and autos were usually a higher cost "option". If I didn't know better (tongue firmly in cheek), I would think that meant people most often would opt for MT. In any case, my preference for MT has often netted me a better deal, and I'm happy with that. I've never experienced SMG, but wouldn't mind trying it. My wife's car is a VW Passat with Steptronic, and I hate it. As much as I dislike auto transmission, it's better than that Steptronic.


The MT is standard in the 6er and the Steptronic and SMG are "no cost" options. HOWEVER, you pay a gas guzzler tax of from $1300 to $1700 for the MT and SMG and no gas guzzler tax for Steptronic. Now that's what I call "odd" today.

What was it you didn't like with Tiptronic? (I think that's what Wolfsburg calls its version.) I like my Steptronic a lot.


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## drmusic (Nov 9, 2005)

Malibubimmer said:


> What was it you didn't like with Tiptronic? (I think that's what Wolfsburg calls its version.) I like my Steptronic a lot.


What I don't like is its sluggishness. There is a short (but annoying) lag between pushing the stick and the response. It's also very bad at downshifting. So I just drive it as an automatic. And you're right; it is TipTronic.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

drmusic said:


> What I don't like is its sluggishness. There is a short (but annoying) lag between pushing the stick and the response. It's also very bad at downshifting. So I just drive it as an automatic. And you're right; it is TipTronic.


Steptronic is not like that, especially when I am in Sport mode.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

Malibubimmer said:


> Steptronic is not like that, especially when I am in Sport mode.


Maybe that's with the new Step 6 speed you get on the 6er. On the E39 5er, the 5 sp Step was sluggish to respond on both upshifts and downshifts.

Dean


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## anon (Jul 8, 2003)

chuck92103 said:


> However, let's be clear. If it were not for the fact 80% of sales are autos, there would be no manuals. BMW would be out of business in the US.
> 
> The 80% auto buyers give BMW a chance to sell manuals in this country.
> 
> So be kind to us auto drivers. You rely on us more than you will ever know. :thumbup:


How does this make sense?

Maybe if you phrased it like this:

"If it were not for the fact 80% of sales are [badge-hounds] there would be no manuals. BMW would be out of business in the US.

NOW, this is correct.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

anon said:


> How does this make sense?
> 
> Maybe if you phrased it like this:
> 
> ...


Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance. Some people enjoy the handling and are not "badge hounds." Indeed, I can afford to buy anything but have selected a 650i Steptronic because of the driving experience. Go insult some Lexus driver. It is unbecoming for you to insult BMW drivers.


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## 46Lover (Nov 17, 2005)

Interesting points brought up here. 

I prefer a good manual to any other transmisison out there, but I think ALL transmissions mentioned here will go away sooner or later... manual, auto, SMG, Dual-whatever... gone.

As fuel consumption becomes more and more of an issue, I think we'll go the direction of the CVT. Continuously variables offer better acceleration, better efficiency, better everything... assuming it's durability keeps improving.

I think today's engine/transmission relationship is backwards.... The engine/tranny link needs one side to be continuously variable, and the other to have several different "steps" in order to motivate a vehicle quickly to a given speed. 

For examply, today's backwards drivetrains have the engine operate in a continuously variable fashion (RPM range from idle to redline) coupled to a trans with several (3 to 7) "steps" or gears. From this combo, we can cover the entire range of RPMs... but an engine's performance and efficiency can go from sh!tty to good to sh!tty again on every gear shift. 

CVTs reverse the engine/tranny relationship and make the tranny variable, while the engine operates only at a few key RPMs or "steps" - say idle and the engine's torque peak. So, if an engine is rated at xx horsepower, it would ALWAYS operate at xx horsepower, and at the torque peak, would be very fuel-efficient. 

Of course, this will also take away all the fun of driving a car... and engines coupled to a CVT would probably have performance similar to diesels, since a low-RPM/high-torque engine sounds like it would be ideally suited. 

I love high-revving, short-geared cars as much as the next guy, but I also realize how this world of ours is changing as we need to look to the future more and more... Thanks for your time.


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## Cowboy Bebop (May 17, 2003)

my point exactly... not brave enough to suggest when, or by what type tranny (CV is a good guess) but the 3 pedal set-up is on borrowed time.
This is with regards new production of course.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

46Lover said:


> As fuel consumption becomes more and more of an issue, I think we'll go the direction of the CVT. Continuously variables offer better acceleration, better efficiency, better everything... assuming it's durability keeps improving.


You know what bugs the hell out of me though? Current CVTs are set up to simulate the shifting-jerk of an automatic, meaning not completely CVT. And then cars that have an electric motor have a non-zero "idle" when in Drive, so they creep. All because people (Americans) have been made driving-stupid by the automatic transmission. 

I rode in an Escape Hybrid cab a couple months ago (w/CVT). The acceleration feeling was like an electric train. Very weird, but interesting.


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## 46Lover (Nov 17, 2005)

I've never felt a CVT-equipped car, but it does sound interesting that current CVTs (Audis... maybe others?) have the ability to "imitate" a 6-speed. But without a clutch how close could it come to a real manual? Probably no closer than a semi-auto... anyone know about this?


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

46Lover said:


> I've never felt a CVT-equipped car, but it does sound interesting that current CVTs (Audis... maybe others?) have the ability to "imitate" a 6-speed. But without a clutch how close could it come to a real manual? Probably no closer than a semi-auto... anyone know about this?


It's not like a manual at all. It is a continuously-variable automatic, meaning it is capable of continuously changing the gear ratio while the engine stays at one rpm. Ideally, the engine would be generating peak torque all the time. In theory, it should feel like an intial strong shove that gradually lessens in a linear fashion until the car reaches its maximum velocity.

In an Escape Hybrid, the acceleration feels like you're sitting in an electric train.


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## 46Lover (Nov 17, 2005)

FenPhen said:


> 46Lover said:
> 
> 
> > I've never felt a CVT-equipped car, but it does sound interesting that current CVTs (Audis... maybe others?) have the ability to "imitate" a 6-speed. But without a clutch how close could it come to a real manual? Probably no closer than a semi-auto... anyone know about this?
> ...


We all know how a CVT works. What I was referring to are CVTs in certain Audis which can be switched to a "manual" mode, where a computer can select 6 preset ratios and shift between them like a 6-speed gearbox. I'd assume it would then operate just like a sequential. It's a feature that allows the driver to enjoy the benefits of a CVT but still return to a more traditional feel of 6 "gears" whenever desired.

Anyone try this before?


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

46Lover said:


> We all know how a CVT works. What I was referring to are CVTs in certain Audis which can be switched to a "manual" mode, where a computer can select 6 preset ratios and shift between them like a 6-speed gearbox. I'd assume it would then operate just like a sequential. It's a feature that allows the driver to enjoy the benefits of a CVT but still return to a more traditional feel of 6 "gears" whenever desired.


I see what you mean now, but the defining feature between a manual and an auto is the automatic's torque converter if you're asking about feel and performance. :dunno: I would guess a CVT that is operating in non-continuous mode would feel like any other automatic.

manual, sequential manual (SMG) | automatic (Steptronic), CVT


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## 46Lover (Nov 17, 2005)

FenPhen said:


> I see what you mean now, but the defining feature between a manual and an auto is the automatic's torque converter if you're asking about feel and performance. :dunno: I would guess a CVT that is operating in non-continuous mode would feel like any other automatic.
> 
> manual, sequential manual (SMG) | automatic (Steptronic), CVT


I'd tend to agree with you. I wonder how fast this manual CVT mode can switch between gears.... guess it depends on its construction and the computer that controls everything.

Regardless, any trnasmission that gets you LESS involved in the enjoyment of driving would be less appealing to me. Shifting gears and using my clutch foot will be the only way to go for me... as long as manuals are still being produced.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

46Lover said:


> any trnasmission that gets you LESS involved in the enjoyment of driving would be less appealing to me. Shifting gears and using my clutch foot will be the only way to go for me... as long as manuals are still being produced.


 :thumbup:


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

I miss my SMG equipped E46. I´ll choose the MT over a slushbox any day (as I did on my current car for lack of availability of SMG), but I sure would like the third pedal to go.

To me, the futures seems to be double clutch trannies. You get the car control of an MT, no slushy torque converter and yet never have to clutch again.

With them, I dont think anyone will ever miss the MT. 

Or does anyone miss the crank handle?


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

tierfreund said:


> Or does anyone miss the crank handle?


We have the technology today to build completely automated cars that drive themselves and park themselves. Since the '90s, we've known how to make a automated highway system using special guidance slugs in the roadbed. Even without infrastructure, we have lane-departure systems, active cruise control, park-distance control, the ability for cars to network with each other, the navigation system, and we've seen the Toyota that can parallel park on its own. There would likely be fewer accidents if every car was automated in this way.

Would anyone miss driving the car?

(Okay, I wouldn't miss parallel parking...)


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

FenPhen said:


> ...Since the '90s, we've known how to make a automated highway system using special guidance slugs in the roadbed....


I worked with someone who was involved with research into these systems. He told me the big stumbling block was not the systems per say, but the transitions from the automated to manual systems (like cars entering and exiting the highway from/to manually navigated streets, etc). This requires human intevention and ensuring that happens smoothly tuened out to be a most difficult problem.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

FenPhen said:


> Would anyone miss driving the car?


Sometimes I might. Most times, I wouldn´t. So much better things to do while traveling than steering. Only very little of my driving is fun. Most is transportation. I drive a BMW because I like to make the transportation more fun, enhancing the quality of the time I have to spend behind the wheel. But it´s been a long time since I got into any car, just to drive for the fun of it. That need wore down somewhere between my 100.000th and 200.000th mile . (I´m up to about 500000mls now, I´m getting old )

When I need to get somewhere for business and I don´t need a car at the location, I will allways check out the train connections. If the door to door travel time by train (we have some pretty nice high-speed trains in Europe) roughly matches the time by car, I´ll choose the train and either work, or read or just watch the landscape.

As long as I could still switch off the autopilot for the occasional late night blast, I´d be quite happy to have one.
:thumbup:


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## szuszu (Jan 30, 2005)

Here are the shift times that I found. Looks like DSG is above and beyond other systems currently offered and it is perhaps the reason why I read somewhere that BMW is rethinking SMG....

Audi/VW DSG
8 ms upshift 40 ms downshift

BMW SMG II (M3 E46)
80 ms

Ferrari F1 (Maserati 4200GT)
80 ms

Ferrari F1 (360 F1)
150 ms

Ferrari F1 (Enzo)
150 ms

Bugatti Veyron (proposed)
200 ms

Ferrari F1 (575M)
220 ms

BMW SMG (M3 E36)
220 ms

Aston Martin Vanquish
250 ms

BMW SSG (3-series)
250ms (150ms for 1st to 2nd)

Alfa Selespeed (156 Selespeed) (old)
700 ms


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