# No Limited Slip Diff for the 997 Carrera ???



## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Can someone please explain to me why the 997 Carrera doesn't come with an LSD?  It comes with an open rear diff and ABD, pretty much the same thing on all the non M, RWD BMW's. I thought that system was OK on my 330i, but when I got my M3 with the real LSD, I realized how much that system sucks for performance driving and IMO the 330i could've used a real LSD. There is an option for an LSD for the Carrera but it's a special sport package option that's not available on USA cars (what else is new? ) Is not having a real LSD in a car like the Carrera a deal breaker?


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

I had to get one for my 330 ZHP, driving that thing with no rear LSD was a joke. Glad I got mine:thumbup:


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> I had to get one for my 330 ZHP, driving that thing with no rear LSD was a joke. Glad I got mine:thumbup:


That's exactly how I felt when I went from the 330 to the M3. Any ideas about the 997 setup?


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

the POS BMW system is no way the same thing:thumbdwn: , the Porsche system actually works very nicely, but still not quiet as well as a true LSD during max performance driving


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Moderato said:


> That's exactly how I felt when I went from the 330 to the M3. Any ideas about the 997 setup?


My Cousin has a new 997 S. I have not seen the LSD on that car or at least an open one. It must have some sort of a LSD in it though. I have driven his car and it seems to put down power or traction down to both wheels although not like what's on my 330. One would have to push the car pretty hard or attempt to do a donut to see how good the stock LSD is or if there is one in there. If it has a proper LSD in it then the car will do donuts like a compass was drwaing circles That is how my 330 does them in the same spot with the front staying put and the rear coming around nearly matching every previous black line in a circle :thumbup:


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Moderato said:


> Can someone please explain to me why the 997 Carrera doesn't come with an LSD?  It comes with an open rear diff and ABD, pretty much the same thing on all the non M, RWD BMW's. I thought that system was OK on my 330i, but when I got my M3 with the real LSD, I realized how much that system sucks for performance driving and IMO the 330i could've used a real LSD. There is an option for an LSD for the Carrera but it's a special sport package option that's not available on USA cars (what else is new? ) Is not having a real LSD in a car like the Carrera a deal breaker?


You have a 06 STI? Enjoy:thumbup: If you want more fun in that car get the Cusco Rear LSD along with the one for the middle and the front as well by Cusco. You couldn't possible get a bigger smile on your face after. The Apexi AVCR for the Boos controller works great provided the guy tuning or adjusting it knows how to adjust the settings. We aren't getting any here in Taiwan for 2006 as they did not pass fuel consumtion tests along with the new EVO'S. I would have gotten another one for fun.


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

TeamM3 said:


> the POS BMW system is no way the same thing:thumbdwn: , the Porsche system actually works very nicely, but still not quiet as well as a true LSD during max performance driving


If you're talking about the BMW AWD system (not x-drive) vs. the Porsche 997's then I understand, but as far as I can tell an open diff with ABD on the 997 shouldn't be that much different then the system on the E46?


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> My Cousin has a new 997 S. I have not seen the LSD on that car or at least an open one. It must have some sort of a LSD in it though. I have driven his car and it seems to put down power or traction down to both wheels although not like what's on my 330. One would have to push the car pretty hard or attempt to do a donut to see how good the stock LSD is or if there is one in there. If it has a proper LSD in it then the car will do donuts like a compass was drwaing circles That is how my 330 does them in the same spot with the front staying put and the rear coming around nearly matching every previous black line in a circle :thumbup:


I guess the 997 just has those huge rear tires and all the weight of the engine over them but it does have an open diff with ABD.


stylinexpat said:


> You have a 06 STI? Enjoy:thumbup: If you want more fun in that car get the Cusco Rear LSD along with the one for the middle and the front as well by Cusco. You couldn't possible get a bigger smile on your face after. The Apexi AVCR for the Boos controller works great provided the guy tuning or adjusting it knows how to adjust the settings. We aren't getting any here in Taiwan for 2006 as they did not pass fuel consumtion tests along with the new EVO'S. I would have gotten another one for fun.


Yeah I've been enjoying the 06 STI, much improved over the 04, IMO. Why would the Cusco diffs be better then the ones I have now though, they seem very well engineered and how (or why) could I possibly replace the center diff which uses the complicated DCCD system?


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

: popcorn: ... 3, 2, 1 ... waiting for the Stuka rant.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume BMW and Porsche don't put LSDs cause they don't think their customers want to drift around corners or drive on the track. I mean, normal driving you don't need a diff, and I assume it's probably safer for Jo Blow ("my car is rear drive?"), right?


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume BMW and Porsche don't put LSDs cause they don't think their customers want to drift around corners or drive on the track. I mean, normal driving you don't need a diff, and I assume it's probably safer for Jo Blow ("my car is rear drive?"), right?


With a BMW (not M) I can see the rational, although I'd still prefer an LSD even in a 325 or 330, but no LSD in a Porsche? :dunno:


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Moderato said:


> I guess the 997 just has those huge rear tires and all the weight of the engine over them but it does have an open diff with ABD.
> Yeah I've been enjoying the 06 STI, much improved over the 04, IMO. Why would the Cusco diffs be better then the ones I have now though, they seem very well engineered and how (or why) could I possibly replace the center diff which uses the complicated DCCD system?


The original one is very well engineered to keep you of trouble but there pure fun there is no replacement for a real Cusco LSD even on the STI or EVO..


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Dawg90 said:


> someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume BMW and Porsche don't put LSDs cause they don't think their customers want to drift around corners or drive on the track. I mean, normal driving you don't need a diff, and I assume it's probably safer for Jo Blow ("my car is rear drive?"), right?


Right:thumbup:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Moderato said:


> Can someone please explain to me why the 997 Carrera doesn't come with an LSD?  It comes with an open rear diff and ABD, pretty much the same thing on all the non M, RWD BMW's. I thought that system was OK on my 330i, but when I got my M3 with the real LSD, I realized how much that system sucks for performance driving and IMO the 330i could've used a real LSD. There is an option for an LSD for the Carrera but it's a special sport package option that's not available on USA cars (what else is new? ) Is not having a real LSD in a car like the Carrera a deal breaker?


Do not waste your money on regular pretender 997's.

It should come as no surprise that since the best selling 911 is the tippy magic tronic C4s, that PAG thinks very little of its U.S. customers.:rofl:

How little you ask? How about PAG not bother crashing a few 997's without sunroof. Yep, you read that right, 997's in the U.S. can NOT, can NOT be ordered without a sunroof.

So, you got your bored out Boxter engine, your nice big heavy sunroof. Why would any 'mericans need LSD?:rofl:


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Stuka said:


> Do not waste your money on regular pretender 997's.
> 
> It should come as no surprise that since the best selling 911 is the tippy magic tronic C4s, that PAG thinks very little of its U.S. customers.:rofl:
> 
> ...


So you think the 996 Turbo is a much better choice then then any of the 997 variants so far? That sucks about the sunroof because I was planning on ordering my next car without one. For the price of one brand new 997 C4S, I can keep my STI and order an E92 M3 (which was my plan when I transfered the lease on my E46 M3). The Porsche doesn't make sense unless it's absolutely perfect to justify the cost. I was impressed by the 997 when it beat the Aston Martin and the M6 at the Isle of Mann, on Topgear. Even though it has way less power then those cars it's handling more then made up for it.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

The Porsche is actually a very nice car that handles excellent. The LSD can be installed after if you care that much about it. They just released the X51 Package for the new Carrera S. I may get one of those in America or a new Vette. That will be my next car for California. You won't regret buying a Porsche. My cousin owned a few and still has two at the moment. After having driven thew new Carrera I must admit it is one of the best cars around to drive, own and enjoy:thumbup:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Moderato said:


> So you think the 996 Turbo is a much better choice then then any of the 997 variants so far? That sucks about the sunroof because I was planning on ordering my next car without one. For the price of one brand new 997 C4S, I can keep my STI and order an E92 M3 (which was my plan when I transfered the lease on my E46 M3). The Porsche doesn't make sense unless it's absolutely perfect to justify the cost. I was impressed by the 997 when it beat the Aston Martin and the M6 at the Isle of Mann, on Topgear. Even though it has way less power then those cars it's handling more then made up for it.


I think all non M64 911's are worthless pieces of crap. That is the bottom line.

If you really want a 997, WAIT for the 997 GT3 which is confirmed to have the 3.8 version of the M64 (the true dry sump block that costs $40000) instead of the 3.8 M97 that costs about $10000 and cannot be rebuild and has oil leak and oil starvaton blue smoke problem if tracked.:thumbdwn:

If you need one now, your $$ is way better spend on a 996 GT3, at around mid to low 80K's. It will have a real engine with Ti con rods and an 8200rpm redline that PAG races.

Note again that PAG does not race any M96/7 equipped 911's because they are badge unworthy $$ makers for the masses that cannot be tracked. Well, it can. But let me put it to you this way, if your 997 should develop any symptom of oil starvation issue, be prepared to pay 10K. Porsche doesn't cover track use, and damages resulted from track use is not covered. But hey, you do get a new engine with that 10K (installation extra).:rofl:

The regular 997 chassis at this point is crap because it has that nice big hole in the roof that you MUST have because PAG never bothered crashing a few non sunroof shell. So you got tippy magic tronic to go with the sunroof and the bored out Boxster engine. Winning formula for a company that makes $$ hand over fist but has products that bear little resemblence to what made them so successful.

I will say it again, regular 911's are not track worthy in a way that all 993's or M64 996's are.:thumbdwn:


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Stuka said:


> I think all non M64 911's are worthless pieces of crap. That is the bottom line.
> 
> If you really want a 997, WAIT for the 997 GT3 which is confirmed to have the 3.8 version of the M64 (the true dry sump block that costs $40000) instead of the 3.8 M97 that costs about $10000 and cannot be rebuild and has oil leak and oil starvaton blue smoke problem if tracked.:thumbdwn:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight, I appreciate all that info. :typing:

Do you think the 993's are worth the money they're fetching right now?


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Moderato said:


> Thanks for the insight, I appreciate all that info. :typing:
> 
> Do you think the 993's are worth the money they're fetching right now?


They are over priced, but the price is unlikely to go down that much because of the limited number of 993's that were produced.

If you have the $$ for a 997, I would seriously think about a 996 GT3. They have the advacements from the last 20 years of car making, and all indications so far seems that the 996 GT3's are pretty reliable track cars with minimum mods, and it can be driven daily.:thumbup:


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Stuka said:


> They are over priced, but the price is unlikely to go down that much because of the limited number of 993's that were produced.
> 
> If you have the $$ for a 997, I would seriously think about a 996 GT3. They have the advacements from the last 20 years of car making, and all indications so far seems that the 996 GT3's are pretty reliable track cars with minimum mods, and it can be driven daily.:thumbup:


Thanks, I'll look into the 996 GT3.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Porsche is not selling any new 996 GT'S, so one would have to get a used one and the used ones on Porsches website are any where in the 90's to lower $100K in price range which is too much to pay for the GT. My cousin has not had any problems with his Carrera S and all the reviews have not reported the car burning any oil from what I have seen in the magazines for long term updates.:dunno: I think their engines are built pretty solid. I would reccommend driving the new S if you have not driven one yet even with the Sunroof is very nice to drive and quite fast


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

stylinexpat said:


> Porsche is not selling any new 996 GT'S, so one would have to get a used one and the used ones on Porsches website are any where in the 90's to lower $100K in price range which is too much to pay for the GT. My cousin has not had any problems with his Carrera S and all the reviews have not reported the car burning any oil from what I have seen in the magazines for long term updates.:dunno: I think their engines are built pretty solid. I would reccommend driving the new S if you have not driven one yet even with the Sunroof is very nice to drive and quite fast




If you don't know anything about P cars, please shut it. Bad information is worse than no information.:thumbdwn:

Check on rennlist and other P car forums, ther are GT3's for sale in the 80's. The ones listed on the Porsche website are most likely CPO cars, but in any event, even at a dealer, the price should be high 80 to low 90's.:dunno:

If you did not understand the technical differences that were outlined in my previous posts about the M96/7 and the M64, fine. But to say that your cousin's 997 is not burning oil, therefore, 997's are nice car is just well...:loco:

For the price of a new 997, you still get that $10K unrebuilable POS engine that PAG does not race. Why pay the premium over a nice M car when all you get are basically nicer OEM brakes? At least M3's can be ordered without a sunroof.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Stuka said:


> If you don't know anything about P cars, please shut it. Bad information is worse than no information.:thumbdwn:
> 
> I was referring to what I had read online and my cousin's Porsche:
> http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/intellichoice/369_0512_review_2006_porsche_911_carrera/
> ...


I would agree with you that if someone wanted a car just for the track to buy the Carrera GT3. Would be nice if the Porsche could be ordered without the sunroof.


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## AsianImage (Oct 10, 2004)

*for Stuka!*

I guess this is more a question for Stuka then a reply to this thread.

Wiht your very strong opinion on P cars...I wanted your opinion on this. What are your overall thoughts on a:

2000 C4?

Do you like them? not like them? would u pick one up? If you did how much? What should someone look for when buying one? etc. Any and all replies would be appreciated!


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

I will answer for Stuka but I am sure he will answer anyway 

stuka

"any 996/997 porshce with non-M64 engine is a piece of junk.

your C4 does not a M64 engine, just a bored out wet sumped boxster POS.

get a 996 turbo/gt2/gt3 "

:bigpimp:


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## AsianImage (Oct 10, 2004)

Jeff_DML said:


> I will answer for Stuka but I am sure he will answer anyway
> 
> stuka
> 
> ...


Great answer! I would of figured as much! HA! =)


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

AsianImage said:


> I guess this is more a question for Stuka then a reply to this thread.
> 
> Wiht your very strong opinion on P cars...I wanted your opinion on this. What are your overall thoughts on a:
> 
> ...


Well, let me put it to you this way.

Prior to 1999, you can walk into any P car dealership, pay around 70K, and have yourself a 911 with an engine that PAG uses in its factory racing. That engine is the M64.

After 1999, with the advent of 996, you have to pay 100K for a GT3, 180K for a GT2, or 125K for a Turbo to have that same engine.

That coupled with the lower production number is the reason why the 993's are mroe expensive than the 996's.

I would NOT touch a 2000 C4 with a ten foot pole. Why pay the going rate of 60 something to buy a car that has an inferior engine? Right, you get a nice cupholder and a working airconditioning.

Not that 993's are bad cars in this regard, but that was back when Germans don't give a sh*t about what stupid 'mericans want in a car, like cupholders or icy cold air conditioning.

But go take a look at say, ad number 4739 on rennlist, and tell me if that's not a nice car. It will be an excellent weekend track car that you can commute in without worrying about grenading the engine because of oil starvation or RMS, both common problems in the M96/7 series bored out Boxster engine used in the 911's post 993.

Also, ten years from now, that 993 from the rennlist ad WILL be worth more than the 996 C4 that you are interested, if it is still in good condition.

Things to watch out for on the 993's are valve jobs. If a poseur owned the car before, chances are he never opened up the car on the rpm, and you get carbon build up. This can be greatly helped by some Techron and a Pb pedis, but sometimes professional help is required. Also, the 993 uses 16 quarts of oil, IIRC, since it has no water pump and coolant hoses, so it's got less moving parts and less things to break.

If you do go with the 993 route, a few essential upgrades in my mind would be:

A pair of the 996 GT3 seats

A nice 3 spoke wheel from the 996

Let me know if you got other questions, though I really think you should also get on rennlist and read up on 993's.


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

Stuka said:


> I would NOT touch a *2000 C4 *with a ten foot pole. Why pay the going rate of 60 something to buy a car that has an inferior engine? Right, you get a nice cupholder and a working airconditioning.


 :eeps:

And plus, mine doesn't have any cupholders (or a glovebox).

My A/C is ice cold though. :bigpimp:


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

MrAirbags said:


> :eeps:
> 
> And plus, mine doesn't have any cupholders (or a glovebox).
> 
> My A/C is ice cold though. :bigpimp:


P-car poseur  :rofl:


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## AsianImage (Oct 10, 2004)

Stuka said:


> Well, let me put it to you this way.
> 
> Prior to 1999, you can walk into any P car dealership, pay around 70K, and have yourself a 911 with an engine that PAG uses in its factory racing. That engine is the M64.
> 
> ...


OK..giving me alot to think about. Thank you for your honest answer. I am afraid to admit it...I may be one of those p-car poseurs. I am not planning on tracking the car. Just want to drive it and enjoy it. But now I have some more thinking to do. Thanks.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

AsianImage said:


> OK..giving me alot to think about. Thank you for your honest answer. I am afraid to admit it...I may be one of those p-car poseurs. I am not planning on tracking the car. Just want to drive it and enjoy it. But now I have some more thinking to do. Thanks.


A bullet proof engine is cheaper than one with potential RMS and oil starvation problem. You don thave to track your car to get the dreaded RMS problem.

Dollar wise, the 993 will be worth more than the 996 assuming that you don't wreck it.


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Besides carfax is there anyway to determine the accuracy of the odometer reading? I've noticed the 993s have the old style odometers, it looks really easy to turn them back.


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## DaveH (Sep 25, 2003)

Stuka said:


> A bullet proof engine is cheaper than one with potential RMS and oil starvation problem. You don thave to track your car to get the dreaded RMS problem.


Don't forget about the very common SAI (secondary air intake) problem in the M64-engined 993. That requires a partial engine tear down (head off block) for about $8K to remedy. You might not get "oil starvation" issues with the M64, but that engine will "eat" (burn) oil and clog the cylinder ports with carbon deposits!

Also, do you remember the valve guide bushing wear issue......blue smoke on throttle release?......hopefully both these problems are diagnosed at the same time so you only tear down superman once.

Even bullet-proof Superman has his Kryptonite, Stuka.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

DaveH said:


> Don't forget about the very common SAI (secondary air intake) problem in the M64-engined 993. That requires a partial engine tear down (head off block) for about $8K to remedy. You might not get "oil starvation" issues with the M64, but that engine will "eat" (burn) oil and clog the cylinder ports with carbon deposits!
> 
> Also, do you remember the valve guide bushing wear issue......blue smoke on throttle release?......hopefully both these problems are diagnosed at the same time so you only tear down superman once.
> 
> Even bullet-proof Superman has his Kryptonite, Stuka.


AFAIK, most of the carbon deposit issue comes from people driving their 993's at 3000rpm 99.9999% of the time because they don't want to "hurt" the engine.

Most people I know that drive their 993's normally don't really have this problem.

Also, most of these issues should be able to be located at the time of PPI.


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## DaveH (Sep 25, 2003)

Stuka said:


> AFAIK, most of the carbon deposit issue comes from people driving their 993's at 3000rpm 99.9999% of the time because they don't want to "hurt" the engine.
> 
> Most people I know that drive their 993's normally don't really have this problem.
> 
> Also, most of these issues should be able to be located at the time of PPI.


Nah-ah. Sorry.

If one tracks their car, the valve guide issue shows up. Read it on rennlist, too.
If one drives his M64 993 like a wussie, carbon builds up per your response.
What's a person to do?


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## DaveH (Sep 25, 2003)

Stuka:

You've officially been owned...

http://www.systemsc.com/pictures.htm :freakdanc

Just an aside, I do like the 993 and would buy one, despite its issues. I just wanted to put a little humility in Stuka's rants.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

DaveH said:


> Stuka:
> 
> You've officially been owned...
> 
> ...


My biggest problem with the current crop of regular 911's is that they make you pay over 100K for an engine that doesn't self destruct because of the design of the "integrated dry sump.":dunno:

So, if ones budget is around 70K for a bottom of the line 997, would you not agree that a 993 Turbo is a way better buy that the regular 997 with the bored out Boxster engine?:dunno:

It sucks having to pay 8 grand to do the job. But what is someone to do if his 911 is out of warranty, and he has RMS issues? Half the time the resealing deosn't work, and they have to get a new engine. Some on rennlist have gone through 3 engines within the warranty period.:yikes: Granted the new engine is not 40K, but at 10K plus for the engine plus labor, it will quickly sour any P car ownership.:thumbdwn:

So, what is so great about regular 996 and 997's that one should pay the 20 to 30K premium over an M car? Better brakes hardly cost 20 to 30K, no?:dunno:

BTW, the removal of the undertray is a common mod for 993's in California.


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## DaveH (Sep 25, 2003)

Stuka said:


> My biggest problem with the current crop of regular 911's is that they make you pay over 100K for an engine that doesn't self destruct because of the design of the "integrated dry sump.":dunno:


Porsche business decision. What would you do if you onwed Porsche and:
(1) A very small minority of users track their cars and would benefit from a true dry sump
(2) You can save, for arguments sake, $30K per engine. I know that's retail cost but who really knows PAG's true cost per engine.
(3) You still offer those who wish to track their car a racing derived engine.
(4) You still can sell your new cars, but at a higher margin

No brainer there.



> So, if ones budget is around 70K for a bottom of the line 997, would you not agree that a 993 Turbo is a way better buy that the regular 997 with the bored out Boxster engine?:dunno:


Personal decision there. Research has shown that most people who buy new-especially Porsche buyers- only keep their car for the warranty period. The factory will replace the RMS for the warranty period, so they're covered. The 997 is no slouch performance-wise, but I personally would buy the 993 Turbo.



> It sucks having to pay 8 grand to do the job. But what is someone to do if his 911 is out of warranty, and he has RMS issues? Half the time the resealing deosn't work, and they have to get a new engine. Some on rennlist have gone through 3 engines within the warranty period.:yikes: Granted the new engine is not 40K, but at 10K plus for the engine plus labor, it will quickly sour any P car ownership.:thumbdwn:


Having to replace the RMS doesn't require an engine replacement. It just means your engine externally leaks oil. It depends on the source of the information, but the supposed cause is either a centerline misalignment in the crankshaft caused by too small bearings and/or a rear main seal material that wears quickly over time. From my uinderstanding, the current seal material is working for now in many of the replacements.



> So, what is so great about regular 996 and 997's that one should pay the 20 to 30K premium over an M car? Better brakes hardly cost 20 to 30K, no?:dunno:


Purely personal decision there. I like the M-cars very much for their performance. I think we both agree that most of these cars can perform better than their owner's abilities anyway, including mine.



> BTW, the removal of the undertray is a common mod for 993's in California.


 So, I must drop the pan to properly cool my bullet-proof 993. Does that mean that if it goes above 90 deg. F, I need to shut off my A/C to prevent engine damage? Should I stop driving the car? Dude, I live in central Florida. Its above 90 degrees 8 months of the year. That's one way to keep the 993 mileage down-drive it only at night between 11pm and dawn! :loco:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

DaveH said:


> So, I must drop the pan to properly cool my bullet-proof 993. Does that mean that if it goes above 90 deg. F, I need to shut off my A/C to prevent engine damage? Should I stop driving the car? Dude, I live in central Florida. Its above 90 degrees 8 months of the year. That's one way to keep the 993 mileage down-drive it only at night between 11pm and dawn! :loco:


Before buying my 996 Turbo, I did lots and lots of research on the 993 Turbo, because it was the car that I always wanted (well, the 959 was, but in my mind the 993 was close).

Most 993 Turbo drivers in CA removes the tray. Most have not had a valve job done. Most have over 60K on their cars. Most commute in this car. Many track the Turbo as well.

And they seem to be fine. I would have bought one as well, but I spent six month and could not find a 993 Turbo in Speed Yellow. I am not inclined to believe that they do not exist.

The weather in CA aint exactly cool either, but most of these guys aren't complaining about having to do valve jobs.

Anyway, belive it or not, I rarely use my AC in California. I use it maybe 20 days out of the year when I have to be at the TO area where it gets to be 110 form time to time. Mainly because I don't like the AC slowing down the car. Even at 420HP, it still drags. But AFAIK, all those 993 Turbo guys aren't weird like me and they do use their AC in traffic, so I am not sure where the problem lies, or if this actually is a big problem.:dunno:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

DaveH said:


> Porsche business decision. What would you do if you onwed Porsche and:
> (1) A very small minority of users track their cars and would benefit from a true dry sump
> (2) You can save, for arguments sake, $30K per engine. I know that's retail cost but who really knows PAG's true cost per engine.
> (3) You still offer those who wish to track their car a racing derived engine.
> ...


Well, the poster asked about a 2000 C4, which is out of warranty. I would not touch an out of warranty M96/7 car. The potential engine replacement cost of say 12K total on a car that costs 55K now is not worth the hassle.

I can see paying 5 grand every 15K miles to run an F car (that's how much each 15K service cost, because those geniuses designed the car so that each service requires the dropping of the engine), but not on something as plebian as a 996/7. They are massed produced, unlike the 993, which is why a good condition 993 Turbo right now costs the same as a beaten to sh*t 2000 Turbo.:yikes:

Your point about number 4 is why I keep harping on this whole M64 versus M96/7 issue. I know if I had configured and bought a 996 C4s for 95K, I would have been really p*ssed to find out that for another 5 grand, I could have gotten a proper 911 with a racing engine.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Stuka-

I'm confused about something. Isn't the 996 GT3 water-cooled? If so, how did they mange to sue the M64 which was presumably air cooled? Or did they make the M64 water cooled for the GT3 application?


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

robg said:


> Stuka-
> 
> I'm confused about something. Isn't the 996 GT3 water-cooled? If so, how did they mange to sue the M64 which was presumably air cooled? Or did they make the M64 water cooled for the GT3 application?


They make the M64 water cooled for the GT2, GT3, and the Turbo.:thumbup:

The engine case has 964 stamp on them.

But PAG does try to slide this fact under radar, since the official designation for these engines are actually M96, eventhough they have nothing in common with the real bored out Boxster engine M96. The retail for the M96 is about 10K, and about 40K (give or take a few grand) for the M96 (er M64, in the GT2, GT3, and the Turbo).

This is how PAG is able to confunse many new buyers into thinking that they have the same engine as the 100K plus 911's with real engines.


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## DaveH (Sep 25, 2003)

Stuka said:


> Well, the poster asked about a 2000 C4, which is out of warranty. I would not touch an out of warranty M96/7 car. The potential engine replacement cost of say 12K total on a car that costs 55K now is not worth the hassle.


Again, if you don't track the car and just enjoy it on the road, you do not need to replace the engine. It just drips a little oil externally. Why do you continue to say the engine needs replacement?



> Your point about number 4 is why I keep harping on this whole M64 versus M96/7 issue. I know if I had configured and bought a 996 C4s for 95K, I would have been really p*ssed to find out that for another 5 grand, I could have gotten a proper 911 with a racing engine.


Buyer beware is the golden rule. Why do you think I'm researching Porsches in the first place? I don't want financial pit, just a car to have some fun with.:thumbup:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

DaveH said:


> Again, if you don't track the car and just enjoy it on the road, you do not need to replace the engine. It just drips a little oil externally. Why do you continue to say the engine needs replacement?


Because on rennlist it appears that many 996's with RMS issues had a crate engine replacement.

I typed in "RMS engine reaplcement" and came up with quite a few hits there...


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Stuka said:


> They make the M64 water cooled for the GT2, GT3, and the Turbo.:thumbup:
> 
> The engine case has 964 stamp on them.
> 
> ...


Very interesting... So, they use the exact same "official" designation for the Gt3's engine adn the regular 996, engine: M96? Its not even something like "S96" vs "m96", or M96/GT or whatever? Where have you seen Porsche refer to the GT3 engine as an "M96"? If they call it the same thing, how do they differentiate internally?


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

AsianImage said:


> OK..giving me alot to think about. Thank you for your honest answer. I am afraid to admit it...I may be one of those p-car poseurs. I am not planning on tracking the car. Just want to drive it and enjoy it. But now I have some more thinking to do. Thanks.


Then just get the new 997 Carrera S:thumbup:


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> Then just get the new 997 Carrera S:thumbup:


I'm thinking I might just do that also. I really love the look of the 997, and I would want to track it but only occasionally. OTOH, what I'm learning from this thread is that you have to understand that it's not the "race car" it advertised to be. So that makes me lean towards a 996 GT3 or Turbo. Unfortunately the 997 GT3 and Turbo will be out of my price range. I just don't think I could justify a purchase that expensive at this point in my life. Heck, even a new 997S is way overpriced, IMO. One thing I love about the STI is how it feels nimble & tossable, but yet has lots of torque (low & high), traction and a great gearbox. For all of those reasons I would think the 996 Turbo would be the car for me. I'm going to wait for the E92 M3, if that's not what I'm looking for then I'm going to seriously start looking at Porsche. Most likely the 993 or 996 Turbo, but I'll still consider the 997 S & 4S (used). I'm not going to pay 80K - 100K on a regular 997 S. For that money I could keep my STI and get an E92 M3 brand new, so it looks like if I get a P car it will have to be used.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Moderato said:


> I'm thinking I might just do that also. I really love the look of the 997, and I would want to track it but only occasionally. OTOH, what I'm learning from this thread is that you have to understand that it's not the "race car" it advertised to be. So that makes me lean towards a 996 GT3 or Turbo. Unfortunately the 997 GT3 and Turbo will be out of my price range. I just don't think I could justify a purchase that expensive at this point in my life. Heck, even a new 997S is way overpriced, IMO. One thing I love about the STI is how it feels nimble & tossable, but yet has lots of torque (low & high), traction and a great gearbox. For all of those reasons I would think the 996 Turbo would be the car for me. I'm going to wait for the E92 M3, if that's not what I'm looking for then I'm going to seriously start looking at Porsche. Most likely the 993 or 996 Turbo, but I'll still consider the 997 S & 4S (used). I'm not going to pay 80K - 100K on a regular 997 S. For that money I could keep my STI and get an E92 M3 brand new, so it looks like if I get a P car it will have to be used.


With a properly tuned STI you will have more fun at the track then either Porsche unless you have lots of cash to throw around.:dunno: Porsche's are great cars and the GT'S are one of the best around but the price on them is not for everyone. Oil, Insurance and taking such an expensive car to the track to beat would have to be a hobby for the rich and famous. Stick to the STI for the track. Get some Japanese Videos and see how well the Japanese do in Japan on the track versus all the other exotic cars. For the money you just can't beat the STI period but if you have the money and can afford all the expenses the get the GT:thumbup: Personally I would rather get the STI and tune it nicely for the track and stay within my budget as I know I could afford to get the best parts on the Market for my STI:thumbup: The 997 Carrera S is more then enough for Los Angeles Highways, the GT is a bit faster and better but the difference of a better driver in the Carrera S can make up for it


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

stylinexpat said:


> With a properly tuned STI you will have more fun at the track then either Porsche unless you have lots of cash to throw around.:dunno: Porsche's are great cars and the GT'S are one of the best around but the price on them is not for everyone. Oil, Insurance and taking such an expensive car to the track to beat would have to be a hobby for the rich and famous. Stick to the STI for the track. Get some Japanese Videos and see how well the Japanese do in Japan on the track versus all the other exotic cars. For the money you just can't beat the STI period but if you have the money and can afford all the expenses the get the GT:thumbup: Personally I would rather get the STI and tune it nicely for the track and stay within my budget as I know I could afford to get the best parts on the Market for my STI:thumbup: The 997 Carrera S is more then enough for Los Angeles Highways, the GT is a bit faster and better but the difference of a better driver in the Carrera S can make up for it


I want a 911 for the track because of rwd and its messed up weight balance:bigpimp: 4wd is fun and fast but doesnt require as much finesse as a rwd car


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> With a properly tuned STI you will have more fun at the track then either Porsche unless you have lots of cash to throw around.:dunno: Porsche's are great cars and the GT'S are one of the best around but the price on them is not for everyone. Oil, Insurance and taking such an expensive car to the track to beat would have to be a hobby for the rich and famous. Stick to the STI for the track. Get some Japanese Videos and see how well the Japanese do in Japan on the track versus all the other exotic cars. For the money you just can't beat the STI period but if you have the money and can afford all the expenses the get the GT:thumbup: Personally I would rather get the STI and tune it nicely for the track and stay within my budget as I know I could afford to get the best parts on the Market for my STI:thumbup: The 997 Carrera S is more then enough for Los Angeles Highways, the GT is a bit faster and better but the difference of a better driver in the Carrera S can make up for it


I agree with using the STI as a track car, but there's the little boy inside me that always wanted a 911. I used to dream about one when I would play with my matchbox cars. You only live once and I want to have the experience of owning and driving a rear engined Porsche. I guess that makes me a poseur.  I basically want something that is like my STI but is even better and has all the prestige and snobery. I guess that makes be shallow also. :eeps: I'm guessing the closest would be the 996 Turbo or the 997 C4S. I think I'm just experiencing M3 withdrawl. I really miss that "feeling" I had when I was crusing around in the M3. I got the STI for a winter & fun car and intended on keeping the M3 also, but ultimately I decided having 3 cars and paying the lease on the M3 was a waste right now because I'm going to want the new one in a couple years, which was why I transfered the lease on my E46 M3 in the first place.

Where the M3 lacked the STI made up for it and vice versa, it really was great owing both of those cars at the same time. If I could find ONE car that would make me as happy as owning the STI & M3 at the same time did, then I want to discover what that is. Otherwise I'm going to have to looking into getting an M3 again (E90 or E46 depending) and keep the STI. I'm as confused in my mind as I am in this post. :dunno:


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Moderato said:


> I agree with using the STI as a track car, but there's the little boy inside me that always wanted a 911. I used to dream about one when I would play with my matchbox cars. You only live once and I want to have the experience of owning and driving a rear engined Porsche. I guess that makes me a poseur.  I basically want something that is like my STI but is even better and has all the prestige and snobery. I guess that makes be shallow also. :eeps: I'm guessing the closest would be the 996 Turbo or the 997 C4S. I think I'm just experiencing M3 withdrawl. I really miss that "feeling" I had when I was crusing around in the M3. I got the STI for a winter & fun car and intended on keeping the M3 also, but ultimately I decided having 3 cars and paying the lease on the M3 was a waste right now because I'm going to want the new one in a couple years, which was why I transfered the lease on my E46 M3 in the first place.
> 
> Where the M3 lacked the STI made up for it and vice versa, it really was great owing both of those cars at the same time. If I could find ONE car that would make me as happy as owning the STI & M3 at the same time did, then I want to discover what that is. Otherwise I'm going to have to looking into getting an M3 again (E90 or E46 depending) and keep the STI. I'm as confused in my mind as I am in this post. :dunno:


Be Happy You have the perfect Combo:thumbup:


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> Be Happy You have the perfect Combo:thumbup:


*HAD, I Had* the perfect combo. That's what I'm so  about. I transfered the lease on my M3 because I wanted to save up for the E92 M3. It better be worth it, otherwise I'm selling the STI and getting a P car or keeping the STI and getting a used E46 M3. There's something wrong with me :loco: ......:rofl:


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

Stuka said:


> I would have bought one as well, but I spent six month and could not find a 993 Turbo in Speed Yellow.


Hard to believe a purist like yourself would make a decision based solely on color


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

markseven said:


> Hard to believe a purist like yourself would make a decision based solely on color


Wanting a 911 with a real 911 engine (i.e. not wanting to get ripped off by PAG) makes me a purist?

I personally think that if you get a sports car, it should be a loud color. Why buy an F car and have it in silver? I see it all the time in LA. F cars should be red.

Oh, and FWIW, the 996 Turbo press car was in Speed yellow during its introduction. I see plenty of silver, black, gray, blue Turbo's in LA, and they look nothing special to me.

Actually, I think I started the yellow P car trend in the CCA. Back in 2004, I was the only yellow P car, shortly after an instructor sold his silver GT3 and got a yellow one. At the last Sears Point school which I could not go, there were something like 4 yellow P cars.:thumbup:


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

Stuka said:


> Wanting a 911 with a real 911 engine (i.e. not wanting to get ripped off by PAG) makes me a purist?
> 
> I personally think that if you get a sports car, it should be a loud color. Why buy an F car and have it in silver? I see it all the time in LA. F cars should be red.
> 
> ...


Being a purist isn't a bad thing  I've read many of your posts, am aware of your sig... didn't think you would allow color to disqualify a car from having a place in your garage.


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## jrp (Nov 11, 2004)

Stuka said:


> I personally think that if you get a sports car, it should be a loud color. Why buy an F car and have it in silver? I see it all the time in LA. F cars should be red.


:stupid: Seeing a silver Ferrari is like drinking decaffeinated Kona coffee. And I saw a Gallardo this morning...it was white...almost sad to see a neutered bull like that.


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

I just optioned an 06 Carrera 4S at porscheusa.com

Silver
Black
Adaptive Sport Seats
Aluminum dials
Steel door runners
Sport Crono
Headrest Crest
Auto Dim Mirrors

94K - :loco: 


Is it just me or does this seem way overpriced? Is this car worth this much? :dunno:


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Moderato said:


> I just optioned an 06 Carrera 4S at porscheusa.com
> 
> Silver
> Black
> ...


You will be very happy with that car:thumbup:


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Stuka said:


> Actually, I think I started the yellow P car trend in the CCA. Back in 2004, I was the only yellow P car, shortly after an instructor sold his silver GT3 and got a yellow one. At the last Sears Point school which I could not go, there were something like 4 yellow P cars.:thumbup:


Nah, a woman beat you to it. I went to a BMW club track day at Mosport in like 2002, and there was a guy driving a red F355. His wife was driving a yellow 996. And she was tall, blond and hot, so she gets my vote over you anyway.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

just get the standard sport seats and ditch the sport chrono. 

anyone know why Porsche NA doesn off the lsd sport package option? because normal 911 is poser mobile like stuka contends


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Moderato said:


> I just optioned an 06 Carrera 4S at porscheusa.com
> 
> Silver
> Black
> ...


You can get a nice GT3 or Turbo in 996 fashion for less than that.


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Stuka said:


> You can get a nice GT3 or Turbo in 996 fashion for less than that.


True, I especially like the Turbo, but I really like what they've done with the 997 exterior & interior wise. I don't think I'm ready to part with 94K for one though. I'll probably hold off for a couple of years and if I don't get the E92 M3 to replace my STI then I'll go for a 997 C4S or 996 Turbo.


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Jeff_DML said:


> just get the standard sport seats and ditch the sport chrono.
> 
> anyone know why Porsche NA doesn off the lsd sport package option? because normal 911 is poser mobile like stuka contends


The standard sport seats don't offer power adjustments for all the positions, no lumbar, no adjustable side bolsters and no seat & mirror memory. I'll have to sit in them and compare if it's worth it, but you're right I probably could be happy with the regular sport seats and save 2K (as if that matters when you're spending 90K  ).

I've read that the LSD for the rear comes with a sport supension that is even lower and firmer then PASM, but is only offered in Europe because it doesn't comply with bumper regulations.

It's funny because every says that the 997 doesn't need a rear LSD since it has PSM, and that PASM provides great handling, but yet Porshce feels the need to offer a more aggresive dedicated sport supension then PASM and LSD as an option adverstised to "improve" these areas over the regular Carrera S set-up of PSM and PASM.


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