# Sales of GM and Nissan electric vehicles fall short of expectations



## tagheuer (Jun 10, 2004)

mstrq said:


> In America, people own 2-3 cars in their garages, and each of them has different purposes. Leaf's 70 mile range is more than enough for commuting, running errands, etc. Most of all it's just ideal for making short stops here and there. Other than saving gas it saves your other precious car from engine wear, useless mileage and aging quickly.


ok, so then why aren't they selling like hotcakes?

Why would I pay $25-$30k for a car with a 70 mile range that takes 8-10 hours to recharge, when I can buy any number of other cars that get great gas mileage (i.e. Prius), handle better (Hyundai Sonata 2.0 turbo, 34mpg), etc. etc. for the same or less money?

The Leaf is very constraining. If my wife drove it all day (she does home care therapy for people) and then I needed to drive it later that evening, I couldn't because it would be charging.

You really have to plan ahead.

And there isn't large room for error...if you get stuck in a massive traffic jam and/or need to get somewhere to an emergency...say your kid lands in a hospital that's 25 miles away, and you already drove 25 miles to work...boy oh boy....

I agree it COULD get me to and from work every day, but it doesn't do it any better then a diesel VW Jetta or a fuel efficient 4 cylinder, and it has very severe range limitations...so why would I ever choose it over a VW diesel that gets 42mpg or a Prius that gets 52mpg, both of which can be driven across the country on a moment's notice.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

tagheuer said:


> ok, so then why aren't they selling like hotcakes?
> 
> Why would I pay $25-$30k for a car with a 70 mile range that takes 8-10 hours to recharge, when I can buy any number of other cars that get great gas mileage (i.e. Prius), handle better (Hyundai Sonata 2.0 turbo, 34mpg), etc. etc. for the same or less money?
> 
> ...


btw, the motor is NOT running while sitting in traffic right. that's one of the greats about an electric motor if you didn't know. but with your emergency scenario, you're screwed even if you have a porsche turbo and a full tank of gas. you're still stuck in traffic and not going anywhere unless you can fly.


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## tagheuer (Jun 10, 2004)

HW said:


> btw, the motor is NOT running while sitting in traffic right. that's one of the greats about an electric motor if you didn't know. but with your emergency scenario, you're screwed even if you have a porsche turbo and a full tank of gas. you're still stuck in traffic and not going anywhere unless you can fly.


but its still using electricity to power the alternator, (i.e. radio, HVAC, etc)

my neighbor across the street is an engineer and lets me drive most of the test mules, the Leaf I drove wasn't very impressive.

Didn't see how it was any better then a Prius...


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

tagheuer said:


> but its still using electricity to power the alternator, (i.e. radio, HVAC, etc)
> 
> my neighbor across the street is an engineer and lets me drive most of the test mules, the Leaf I drove wasn't very impressive.
> 
> Didn't see how it was any better then a Prius...


you don't need electricity to re-convert electricity back to electricity with an alternator . the electricity is already in the form that can be used by the radio and hvac. :rofl:

what will be interesting with electric cars will be really exotic traction controls using a motor on each wheel. also there's a lot less moving and wear'n'tear parts in an electric car so it may put the local mechanics out of business.

but because electric cars are just being "reinvented" after years of the oil lobbies pushing out development of electric cars, it will take some time to get to the point where the electric car's autonomy rivals that of the regular gas cars. development doesn't happen overnight as those in the armchair-analysts and blogosphere expects. i think it still remains to be seen what drive-line combination and layout will win out.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

LuvThatSam said:


> I still don't think we are ready for electric cars. Improved fuel efficiency vehicles, bio diesel should the thing right now. Bring back electric when we are on our last 100 barrels of oil.


development doesn't happen overnight so it doesn't make any sense to stop developing and offering electric cars on the instantaneous price of oil.

the ICE based cars have been developed and driven for billions of "man-years" before it's gotten to this point where it's at now. the electric car development is still at it's embryonic stages relative to the ICE based cars. if it keeps getting aborted, the electric car that is acceptable to the general public will never happen.


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## AlexK (Jul 25, 2009)

tagheuer said:


> ok, so then why aren't they selling like hotcakes?


People already told you "why". They are in very limited production and distribution right now, and there are certain limitations you need to overcome (in terms of location of the parking space in relation to your own property) in order to be approved for some models (like Nissan Leaf). I would gladly get a Leaf (or something like BMW ActiveE) because it would satisfy 100% of my current NEEDS (in terms of daily distance travel) but I already have a lease which I can't get rid of and I can't really afford a secondary car right now.


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## tagheuer (Jun 10, 2004)

HW said:


> you don't need electricity to re-convert electricity back to electricity with an alternator . the electricity is already in the form that can be used by the radio and hvac. :rofl:
> 
> what will be interesting with electric cars will be really exotic traction controls using a motor on each wheel. also there's a lot less moving and wear'n'tear parts in an electric car so it may put the local mechanics out of business.
> 
> but because electric cars are just being "reinvented" after years of the oil lobbies pushing out development of electric cars, it will take some time to get to the point where the electric car's autonomy rivals that of the regular gas cars. development doesn't happen overnight as those in the armchair-analysts and blogosphere expects. i think it still remains to be seen what drive-line combination and layout will win out.


you're right, of course there's no alternator, but you were wrong about not using any power while stopped in traffic.

There is a big power drain while running A/C while sitting in 95 degree heat in rush hour, and running heat while its 3 degrees outside here in Michigan.


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## AlexK (Jul 25, 2009)

tagheuer said:


> There is a big power drain while running A/C while sitting in 95 degree heat in rush hour, and running heat while its 3 degrees outside here in Michigan.


There IS a power drain, but you can regulate it (for example, by switching to "Eco" mode), or you can simply turn the heating/cooling off, which will give you no energy drain (in case if you're stuck on same place for more than several hours... which I personally never experienced)  I know it is possible to be stuck (for example, when highway is closed suddenly due to severe snowstorm) completely for more than 6 hours, I've seen the pictures of such cars littered all over the highway (like during last Chicago's snowstorm), but all of the cars on those pics were totally abandoned by their owners (meaning the owners turned them off and left, because if you'd run out of gas in such conditions you're as screwed as a person in an electrical car since nobody would bother delivering fuel to you).


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

tagheuer said:


> you're right, of course there's no alternator, but you were wrong about not using any power while stopped in traffic.
> 
> There is a big power drain while running A/C while sitting in 95 degree heat in rush hour, and running heat while its 3 degrees outside here in Michigan.


well, then maybe when you're still 25miles away waiting in traffic, the car will tell you how much juice you got left. you have the option to turn off the accessories to conserve should you want to get to your destination.


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## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

HW said:


> well, then maybe when you're still 25miles away waiting in traffic, the car will tell you how much juice you got left. you have the option to turn off the accessories to conserve should you want to get to your destination.


sure you can, that was one of Consumer Report's biggest complaints...the Volt was very cold in the winter.

Again, why would I pay $30k-$40k for one of these electric cars when running the heat/ac saps vital electricity etc....:rofl:

I can buy a 328 for $38k instead of a stupid Chevy Volt.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

tagheuer said:


> There are only TWO reasons why anyone would buy a Volt over a Prius: a) to buy a UAW produced "American" product; or* b) for status, to have the latest thing on the market.*


So, the same reason people buy hybrids then. It should do well.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

pilotman said:


> sure you can, that was one of Consumer Report's biggest complaints...the Volt was very cold in the winter.
> 
> Again, why would I pay $30k-$40k for one of these electric cars when running the heat/ac saps vital electricity etc....:rofl:
> 
> I can buy a 328 for $38k instead of a stupid Chevy Volt.


electric vehicles will have to be subsidized or reduce rate leased for the initial period as the cost manufacturing and development may be more than what the general consumer are willing to pay for initially. it may be the price that car manufacturers need to pay to get enough man hours/years of testing and trying out new technologies in electric cars for reliability, safety, effectiveness and efficiency. if they don't do it during the wild-wild-west early days of developing electric cars, they will risk having to pay huge royalties for ideas that other companies have developed and that would price them out in the future in terms of profit margins. this won't help them in short term profits but if they care about more than the next couple of quarters, they will have to bite it. this is probably one of the downfalls of publicly held companies. it's the shortsightedness of the shareholders and CEO's looking to make quick cash returns without thinking ahead.


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## AlexK (Jul 25, 2009)

pilotman said:


> Again, why would I pay $30k-$40k for one of these electric cars when running the heat/ac saps vital electricity etc....:rofl:
> I can buy a 328 for $38k instead of a stupid Chevy Volt.


Well, nobody is forcing you to buy electric car... At least not yet


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

tagheuer said:


> you're right, of course there's no alternator, but you were wrong about not using any power while stopped in traffic.
> 
> There is a big power drain while running A/C while sitting in 95 degree heat in rush hour, and running heat while its 3 degrees outside here in Michigan.


You are not very educated about these vehicles. You are trying to compare them to a conventional car and they are not normal cars. My wife drives a Honda Insight hybrid. The engine stops under most conditions at a light and if the AC is running it shuts off the compressor. In the winter the engine does not stop as much so there is plenty of heat. The car in general does not generate as much heat as a 100% gas engine car but there are tradeoffs to getting 40+ MPG.

The Volt recharges itself with the gas generator when the power dies but the Leaf is strictly electric and thus only a commuter vehicle.


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## chivas (Aug 31, 2002)

Michael Schott said:


> You are not very educated about these vehicles. You are trying to compare them to a conventional car and they are not normal cars. My wife drives a Honda Insight hybrid. The engine stops under most conditions at a light and if the AC is running it shuts off the compressor. In the winter the engine does not stop as much so there is plenty of heat. The car in general does not generate as much heat as a 100% gas engine car but there are tradeoffs to getting 40+ MPG.
> 
> The Volt recharges itself with the gas generator when the power dies but the Leaf is strictly electric and thus only a commuter vehicle.


so there's no AC when you're at a light or not running?


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

I just spent a couple of weeks in Florida, and for what my friends use a car for, if they dump their 14MPG Liberty (yuucch), and bought a Volt (low '30s after credit), they could probably average about 5 gallons of gas a month max, if that, and charge the car (it comes with the ability to do this) at night when the rates are cheaper. They drive around 9,000 miles a year, so, at 14 mpg, that comes to 642 gallons of gas a year, at 4 bucks per, that adds out to 2500 PER YEAR. Knowing them, they would keep that car at least 4 years, and that would save them 10K, assuming gas stays as low as 4 bucks.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

chivas said:


> so there's no AC when you're at a light or not running?


Not in the Honda hybrids. The car is designed for optimal efficiency. It has lightweight doors,a slippery body, skinny tires, of course the hybrid powertrain and CVT transmission. If you're looking for a conventional driving experience, this is not for you. I don't know if cars like the Prius, Fusion Hybrid and others are the same. It would not be a great car for driving in Florida or Texas. Also, my wife drives hers in Econ mode. Normal mode may be different.


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## nightmareuki (Sep 4, 2010)

here is some "official" info


> Nissan***8216;s Leaf electric car has been in such high demand that the company is struggling to build them fast enough. It***8217;s stopped taking new orders just to fulfill its current demand.


http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/02/nissan-struggling-to-meet-demand-for-the-leaf.html


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

*Earthquake delays*

Nissan shipped 173 Leafs to the US through the end of February and sold all of them. 600 more went on to a ship the day before the earthquake. Dunno how long it will be before Nissan is able to build any more. Rumours say there are serious supply chain problems for the Leaf and the Volt.

Nissan sent out messages to people on the waiting list saying that delays will be unavoidable.

I expect a few more articles quoting low sales volume as proof the Leaf is a "failure"


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> Nissan shipped 173 Leafs to the US through the end of February and sold all of them. 600 more went on to a ship the day before the earthquake. Dunno how long it will be before Nissan is able to build any more. Rumours say there are serious supply chain problems for the Leaf and the Volt.
> 
> Nissan sent out messages to people on the waiting list saying that delays will be unavoidable.
> 
> I expect a few more articles quoting low sales volume as proof the Leaf is a "failure"


there are serious parts supply problems with many japanese cars now. even the ones that are built "domestically" in north america 

edit: seems like even domestic brands and german brands are reliant on japanese sourced components and are having shortages and plant slowdowns now.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> Nissan shipped 173 Leafs to the US through the end of February and sold all of them. 600 more went on to a ship the day before the earthquake. Dunno how long it will be before Nissan is able to build any more. Rumours say there are serious supply chain problems for the Leaf and the Volt.
> 
> Nissan sent out messages to people on the waiting list saying that delays will be unavoidable.
> 
> I expect a few more articles quoting low sales volume as proof the Leaf is a "failure"


Kinda puts a question about the OP's view that electric cars are not up to expectations.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Update -- inautonews says that Nissan has restarted the plant that assembles the Leaf as well as the plant that builds the battery packs. "The ability to sustain production will depend to a large degree on the frequency of rolling blackouts due to electricity shortages."

I've been following the power issues in the Japanese press. Many power plants were damaged besides Fukushima Number One. Electricity shortages won't be ending anytime soon.

A reactor in Omaezaki is set to restart in April. I'm not sure how Japan's grid is configured. Might be helpful :dunno:

http://www.inautonews.com/japan-ear...-resumed-mazda-temporarily-resumed-production


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

FYI - Nissan says they've moved about 5k Leafs so far.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...l-shipment-of-nissan-leafs-arrives-in-us.html


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

*Update on Leaf Sales*

The Leaf is back in production With the earthquake disruption, they won't be able to come close to the original production target of 50,000 units in 2011.

As of June 3, Nissan has delivered 2,094 Leafs in the US and have sold 7,554 units. Nissan hopes to deliver all 7,554 sold units by the end of the summer.

16,000 people who reserved a Leaf have not asked for the $99 deposit back. About 4,000 of the early reservation customers asked for and got a refund.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/06/15/nissan-leaf-sales-updates-5000-deliveries-summer-deposit/


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