# 335d worries.



## Hu99 (Aug 29, 2010)

I've ordered a 335d which will be delivered sometime in December, and despite it being a superlative vehicle with an excellent engine I'm left with the worry that it's going to be unsellable as a used car because of the high-tech diesel engine's need for urea additive.

When the "d" is no longer under the maintenance program and the next poor schlep has to fork over about $600 to fill the DEF reservoir at every service, who in their right mind would buy one? 

Seriously, this is a question that we should all be asking ourselves.


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## Kanuck (Feb 18, 2003)

$600? Where did you hear that? Search the threads for a more realistic number.


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

DEF is available at many place in North America. To refill the DEF on a 335d should be less than $25
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/locator/def/
http://www.discoverdef.com/


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## Hu99 (Aug 29, 2010)

montr said:


> DEF is available at many place in North America. To refill the DEF on a 335d should be less than $25
> http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/locator/def/
> http://www.discoverdef.com/


I would assume that many buyers of 4 year old BMW's would still like to get them serviced at BMW dealers and they're still charging a premium for the DEF. Not so?


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Hu99 said:


> I would assume that many buyers of 4 year old BMW's would still like to get them serviced at BMW dealers and they're still charging a premium for the DEF. Not so?


Some do; others don't. If you have a good indie network where you live they are a viable option. Alternatively, you could buy the extra maintenance coverage (2 more years?) from BMW.

Personally, if you only concern is the cost of DEF refills, you should start worrying about how long it is going to take to get your car delivered to you. You could put some effort into researching availability of indie repair shops and start meeting the owners of some in your area to learn what they are planning on doing regarding DEF refills.

You have to love the BMW diesel. Over in the gasser forums, the N54/N55 engines problem with HPFP failures seems to be going strong. Maybe a slight reduction in the failure rate, but the collateral consequence (reduced engine responsiveness) seems to be an unwelcome trade-off. In diesel-land, we are just having to obsess about whether to get the DEF refilled at the dealer when the car goes off the factory/dealer maintenance. I bet the gasser owners would gladly trade places with us d owners....


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## mecodoug (Nov 30, 2007)

I personally don't buy the current line from BMW that the old DEF neeeds to be purged (unless it gets OLD), which is what can drive up the cost. 

My opinion is if you drive enough so and wait until the DEF is close to empty, you shouldn't need to have the old DEF flushed out. That way, you only need to add DEF. DEF is cheap.

I plan to use the small BMW bottle with the fitted neck once, then carefully refill that container from a larger container. The small ~2 liter BMW bottle is around $15, and 5 gallon containers available at Pilot truck stops and elsewhare are around $25 I think. So I'd say it will be closer to $50 for a refill for those who drive their cars enough to use their DEF in 12 months. I may get fancy and fabricate my own larger container feed into the fitted small bottle, but I'll wait to see how difficult my plan is first.

I forget if the expected life of DEF is 1 year or 18 months, but since I drive 20K plus per year it does not matter for me.


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## DnA Diesel (Jul 31, 2010)

...as with BlueTec Mercs, anyone who isn't willing to do a little (simple) work on their own will have to pay $$$ for servicing, even simple servicing like a DEF fill or an oil change. If you're not willing to buy a small DEF bottle (for the proprietary filler) and a larger DEF supply (for much less cost per volume than synthetic oil), then yes...be prepared to pay. What about people complaining about the high cost of an oil change....or tire rotation? What gets me is when people say, "I drive a $50,000, $60,000, whatever $$$$$ car - I shouldn't have to do work myself!" Well....true, but if you drive a $$$$$ car, then why be surprised to have to pay $$$ to have someone else service it for you if you are either not competent technically, or not motivated enough to do the work yourself? 

On the other hand, you could be a car enthusiast, no matter the cost of your car, who doesn't take it as a monetary/social status insult to do at least the simplest of basic maintenance upkeep on your vehicle.

Not to sound overly harsh Hu, but you have two choices here: 1) cancel your order and potentially lose your deposit, never to worry about the dreaded DEF-after-maintenance issue, or 2) accept that cars, whether it be DEF in the case of a diesel, oil, brake fluid every two years, etc... need servicing and that you can either do much of it yourself or pay for someone else to do it for you.


Regards


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## KarlB (Nov 21, 2004)

all diesel trucks in the US are going to be going to Def also (form what a ford dealership told me), I looked at the 2011 F250 fords and they have a DEF filler cap right next to the fuel cap. from what I understand DEF will be sold at the pump later(at major stations), which may make BMW drop the proprietary cap or an aftermarket company to make an adaptor that is easily fitted. either way, I dont view it as an issue at all.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

KarlB said:


> all diesel trucks in the US are going to be going to Def also (form what a ford dealership told me), I looked at the 2011 F250 fords and they have a DEF filler cap right next to the fuel cap. from what I understand DEF will be sold at the pump later(at major stations), which may make BMW drop the proprietary cap or an aftermarket company to make an adaptor that is easily fitted. either way, I dont view it as an issue at all.


I just inspected a "Trash to Cash" Power Plant in West Palm Beach. They burn the municipal trash in boilers, generate steam to drive a steam turbine generator.

They are retrofitting new emission control equipment and guess what the latest state of the art is? That's right Urea injection. By the truck load!

It is going to be the standard in all diesel engines I would expect, so availability of DEF should be even more widely available and hopefully cheaper.:thumbup:


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

mecodoug said:


> I personally don't buy the current line from BMW that the old DEF neeeds to be purged (unless it gets OLD), which is what can drive up the cost.


I think that might have changed or is in the process of changing. I heard a rumor that BMW maintenance is planning (or did) switch to a policy where DEF is flushed only if the car drives less than some number of miles per year. Otherwise they'll just top off during oil change.

What I read (unofficial) is that DEF has about a 2 year shelf life. You don't know how long it has been on the shelf before it goes into your car. And that fresh DEF has about 1-1.5 years life in the non-climate-controlled tank in the rear of your car.

If you spill DEF and don't clean it up then allegedly it turns into a white crystalline powder. I've seen the powder around the filler of an X5d and was told that's what spilled DEF looks like. I would image that the biggest risk of not flushing DEF is if it crystallizes and clogs up. I don't know if it becomes less effective at emission reduction first. I think I was told that the first 2009 models did not measure the effectiveness of DEF at reducing emissions but that the latest X5d has an additional sensor that does...but I'm not sure about this.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

Hu99 said:


> about $600 to fill the DEF reservoir at every service


If that number is real then it is my personal belief that the owner who was quoted that figure was getting robbed.

Topping off DEF is about as difficult as topping off windshield washer fluid. Maybe a little easier due to the no-spill filling system. (Do you use a funnel to top off washer fluid or do you carefully try not to spill?)

DEF itself is relatively inexpensive, as others have pointed out. It will be very common in the future as all new diesel vehicles sold in the US, I think including 18 wheelers, must meet requirements that given current technology probably implies the inclusion of an SCR system (i.e., DEF).

Flushes are not required anymore. But should you desire a flush, perhaps because you have an exceedingly low mileage car, then flushing DEF is a bit more involved. There is specialized equipment
http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/bulletin_graphic_temp/B041409g.htm
that connects to the shop's air compressor and uses the Venturi principle to create a 0.8 bar vacuum to siphon out the old fluid and dump it into a holding tank. You have to flush/clean the equipment when done or it gets clogged up.
http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/bulletin_graphic_temp/B160109g.htm
For additional discussion see http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5420457#post5420457


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

autoJeff said:


> I think that might have changed or is in the process of changing. I heard a rumor that BMW maintenance is planning (or did) switch to a policy where DEF is flushed only if the car drives less than some number of miles per year. Otherwise they'll just top off during oil change.


I found the reference. From http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/bulletin_graphic_temp/B160109g.htm



> SI B 16 01 09
> September 2010
> ...
> This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B16 01 09 dated March 2010.
> ...


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Link is not working, take out ":" at the end Jeff


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## mecodoug (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks Jeff, good info and agrees with my intuition on this.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

I have no worries in regards to DEF after 4yrs. I found the link Jeff provided in earlier post when I was thinking abt DEF refill during 1st month of ownership. Whether DEF is commonly available or not I will do it myself after 4 yrs.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

tlak77 said:


> Link is not working, take out ":" at the end Jeff


Fixed


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> I just inspected a "Trash to Cash" Power Plant in West Palm Beach. They burn the municipal trash in boilers, generate steam to drive a steam turbine generator.
> 
> They are retrofitting new emission control equipment and guess what the latest state of the art is? That's right Urea injection. By the truck load!
> 
> It is *going* to be the standard in all diesel engines I would expect, so availability of DEF should be even more widely available and hopefully cheaper.:thumbup:


California is requiring urea injection to be retro-fitted to large (buses, trucks; CARB is considering requiring urea injection on stationary sources like generators as well) diesel engines.... Urea injection is here to stay. I expect the pricing will fall as more production gets ramped up.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

I saw speculation on some environmental activist web site that there is an effort to try to get urea injection on some gasoline cars. I think I read that our diesels actually put out less of those sorts of emissions than do 4 cylinder gasoline autos.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

autoJeff said:


> I saw speculation on some environmental activist web site that there is an effort to try to get urea injection on some gasoline cars. * I think I read that our diesels actually put out less of those sorts of emissions than do 4 cylinder gasoline autos*.


Doing an apples-to-apples comparison, the modern diesels are clean, but compared to today's gasoline engines, diesels lag. Here is one article that explains the present emissions compliance standards: http://www.hybridcars.com/emissions-standards.html The BMW M57 diesel engine is certified for LEV II compliance in California. For comparison, the N54 gasser engine is certified for California's ULEV II compliance, which has CO and HC emission levels that are ~50% lower than the LEV II compliance of the M57 engine.

Urea injection is used to reduce NOX emissions, which in gassers are already lower than diesels.


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## Hu99 (Aug 29, 2010)

A quick Google search does indeed prove that urea will be ubiquitous in the future subsequently lowering the price. I do think BMW could have made the refilling process a little more user-friendly and what the hell am I supposed to do with 4 gallons of urea when I drain the system?


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## mecodoug (Nov 30, 2007)

Hu99 said:


> and what the hell am I supposed to do with 4 gallons of urea when I drain the system?


Flush it.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Hu99 said:


> ...and what the hell am I supposed to do with 4 gallons of urea when I drain the system?


And why are you going to be draining the system? Are you not planning on driving your d many miles between refills? Did you read the SIB that was posted stating that only under extreme circumstances would there be a requirement to drain the DEF?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

KarlB said:


> all diesel trucks in the US are going to be going to Def also (form what a ford dealership told me), I looked at the 2011 F250 fords and they have a DEF filler cap right next to the fuel cap. from what I understand DEF will be sold at the pump later(at major stations), which may make BMW drop the proprietary cap or an aftermarket company to make an adaptor that is easily fitted. either way, I dont view it as an issue at all.


My understanding it is already sold at some pumps. I remember reading an article on the prototype diesel F150 and it talking about DEF at pumps. I recall it mentioning some brand stores already starting to retrofit pumps into their stations for the big rigs. I can't find the article right now so perhaps I am mixing up thoughts in my head.


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## Hu99 (Aug 29, 2010)

anE934fun said:


> And why are you going to be draining the system? Are you not planning on driving your d many miles between refills? Did you read the SIB that was posted stating that only under extreme circumstances would there be a requirement to drain the DEF?


I was under the impression that both DEF tanks are to be drained and refilled at scheduled services. Am I mistaken or has BMW rescinded this recommendation?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

The shelf life of the fluid is not a very long amount, over a year but not a lot over it. It makes sense that the old stuff be drained out and new stuff be put in like what is called for during an oil change. With that said, I doubt it really hurts anything to not do that and just to top it off.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Hu99 said:


> I was under the impression that both DEF tanks are to be drained and refilled at scheduled services. Am I mistaken or has BMW rescinded this recommendation?


cutting cost..... on the main 3 forum there is a thread addressing add changes "free" oil changes....


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Hu99 said:


> I was under the impression that both DEF tanks are to be drained and refilled at scheduled services. Am I mistaken or has BMW rescinded this recommendation?


Try reading post #12 above. autoJeff even quoted the relevant text for you.


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## boooomer (Apr 23, 2010)

So the new Service bulletin says:

"INFORMATION
Note: It is no longer necessary to drain the active and passive tanks during an oil service. Topping up of both tanks is now the approved method of refilling the system during a scheduled service *even if the remaining DEF in the system is over twelve months old. *The extraction tool should still be utilized when draining the SCR system during related repairs."

So what does BMW consider the lifespan of DEF to be? At what point should it be changed? Other literature that I've read has the shelf life to be 1 year - 18 months max.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

boooomer said:


> So the new Service bulletin says:
> 
> "INFORMATION
> Note: It is no longer necessary to drain the active and passive tanks during an oil service. Topping up of both tanks is now the approved method of refilling the system during a scheduled service *even if the remaining DEF in the system is over twelve months old. *The extraction tool should still be utilized when draining the SCR system during related repairs."
> ...


Well, the manufacturer of DEF generally says 24 months in temperature and lighting controlled conditions. Once the DEF gets into the tank at the rear of the BMW, it is probably 18 months depending on temperature extremes.


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## boooomer (Apr 23, 2010)

Unless I'm missing something - It seems as though, with this new SIB, BMW has left it open as to when BMW considers that it should be drained. What guidelines does the dealer have for draining the fluid? BMW should be more affirmative on maintenance like this.

Eventhough the my mileage on my D will only be about 7 or 8k, the onboard computer is calling for the first service on 1/11 - the 1 year aniversary of the build date - I always assumed that the limiting factor was the DEF change.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

anE934fun said:


> Well, the manufacturer of DEF generally says 24 months in temperature and lighting controlled conditions. Once the DEF gets into the tank at the rear of the BMW, it is probably 18 months depending on temperature extremes.


This has a table showing temps and expected shelf life:

http://www.kostusa.com/def/WhatIsDEF.html

I think the biggest worry anyone should have, if they are going to worry about this stuff is extreme heat and cold. I know here my DEF easily gets exposed to 100F temps when parked outside in the sun. But I am not going to worry about the stuff going bad.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

boooomer said:


> Unless I'm missing something - It seems as though, with this new SIB, BMW has left it open as to when BMW considers that it should be drained. What guidelines does the dealer have for draining the fluid? BMW should be more affirmative on maintenance like this.
> 
> Eventhough the my mileage on my D will only be about 7 or 8k, the onboard computer is calling for the first service on 1/11 - the 1 year aniversary of the build date - I always assumed that the limiting factor was the DEF change.


As I understand it the computer will call for an oil change at either one years of use or what ever miles it figured. I did read recently on here though that BMW no longer does one year oil changes unless you exceed 6k miles or the car calls for it. Not sure if that applies to all models though. My first oil change was because of one year, my second oil change will be for the same reason.

Wonder how people will go about proving their DEF was completely filled now. Before if it was drained then we easily could tell via the dealer telling us how much they put in. Now since we have no way of measuring levels current in the car then ....


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## Hu99 (Aug 29, 2010)

It's seems that despite the definitive answer provided in post #12 nobody really has any idea as to the lifespan of DEF or it's realistic replacement cost.

Having said that, I'm still going to buy my 335d. There may be issues but none serious enough to make me distrust BMW.:thumbup:


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Hu99 said:


> It's seems that despite the definitive answer provided in post #12 nobody really has any idea as to the lifespan of DEF or it's realistic replacement cost.
> 
> Having said that, I'm still going to buy my 335d. There may be issues but none serious enough to make me distrust BMW.:thumbup:


Search google for "shelf life of DEF" and you will find a ton of information on it. Most all of it that I have glanced through all gives similar figures for temp. ranges. I think people know how long it will last, just have to go searching for their findings.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

boooomer said:


> Unless I'm missing something - It seems as though, with this new SIB, BMW has left it open as to when BMW considers that it should be drained. What guidelines does the dealer have for draining the fluid? BMW should be more affirmative on maintenance like this.
> 
> Eventhough the my mileage on my D will only be about 7 or 8k, the onboard computer is calling for the first service on 1/11 - the 1 year aniversary of the build date - *I always assumed that the limiting factor was the DEF change*.


Nah. It is oil life. The additive package for fighting acidity starts to break down after the 1 year threshold. Until early 2008, I owned a 2003 Corvette that didn't see much drive time (it was tethered to stations that sold 101 octane racing unleaded). The oil (Mobil 1 5w-30) would start to drop the TBN value after something like 3,000 miles and 12 months in the engine (at the 12 month period, the TBN was 4 - 5) . It would take roughly 6 more months (1,500 miles) for the TBN value to drop to 2.0, but most of the drop occurred in the last 6 months.

Go figure. :dunno:


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> This has a table showing temps and expected shelf life:
> http://www.kostusa.com/def/WhatIsDEF.html


There's some interesting stuff at that URL.

"If the fluid is stored in extremely hot temperatures the fluid is not ***8220;bad***8221; it will simply be consumed at a higher rate by the vehicle."​
I wonder if that's true of our BMW autos.

"it allows the engine design to be modified for maximized fuel efficiency; lowering engine EGR rates, thus increasing the in cylinder oxygen content which can lower engine particulate matter output. Less particulate matter also reduces the amount of fuel used for soot regeneration cycles."​
It goes on to give an empirical example that weighs savings from reduced fuel consumption against cost of DEF, for a $627.35 annual savings per big rig (approx 7 mpg) that does 120,000 miles per year.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Hu99-
You are right to be concerned. 
I can help you out: when your first DEF top-off/change is due after the covered maintenance, I will buy the car off of you for $20K CAD at that time.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Snipe656 said:


> As I understand it the computer will call for an oil change at either one years of use or what ever miles it figured. *I did read recently on here though that BMW no longer does one year oil changes unless you exceed 6k miles or the car calls for it. Not sure if that applies to all models though.* My first oil change was because of one year, my second oil change will be for the same reason.
> 
> Wonder how people will go about proving their DEF was completely filled now. Before if it was drained then we easily could tell via the dealer telling us how much they put in. Now since we have no way of measuring levels current in the car then ....


The diesel is not included in the new 6k or less rule. N4S


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