# clutch replacement?



## SilverE39 (May 13, 2003)

I was in San Francisco on Sunday to watch the Blue Angels' performance. I was looking/driving around for an hour to find parking. Traffic was a nightmare! Cars everywhere! Anyways to make long story short, I was riding on my clutch up a steep hill (around Lomabard/Union Street area) and I've notice smoke near the top of hill. I knew I burned the clutch, 'cuz it has that burnt smell and was hard for me to get into all the gears (yes, it's a 5 speed). 

After finding parking and watching the air show, the cooling down period helped me regain my clutch, but still have that burning smell even after 2 days.

Question 1: Do I need a clutch replacement?

'01 E39 has 78, 000 miles (mainly freeway). When is it normally changed? I'm having Phaedrus look at it next Tuesday.

Quesion 2: Should I still drive it? I commute from Belmont to San Francisco everyday.

Thanks for any input.


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## Ågent99 (Jan 7, 2002)

SilverE39 said:


> I was in San Francisco on Sunday to watch the Blue Angels' performance. I was looking/driving around for an hour to find parking. Traffic was a nightmare! Cars everywhere! Anyways to make long story short, I was riding on my clutch up a steep hill (around Lomabard/Union Street area) and I've notice smoke near the top of hill. I knew I burned the clutch, 'cuz it has that burnt smell and was hard for me to get into all the gears (yes, it's a 5 speed).
> 
> After finding parking and watching the air show, the cooling down period helped me regain my clutch, but still have that burning smell even after 2 days.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about BMW clutches but a buddy had a '69 Mustang that he was always burning the clutch out. He usually drove it until the damn car wouldn't hardly move anymore, then replace it, and then it was fine for a while. He was always burning cookies in the high school parking lot and squealing his tires everywhere he could...I think he's in jail now or something! :tsk: (didn't see that coming!  )

Anyway, I think it would be safe to drive it assuming it might need replacement in the future. Clutches are wear items...you just may have accelerated the wear a bit. Does driving around still feel the same as "pre-smell" driving? If yes, then you are probably okay and the smell may just linger for a while. The streets of San Francisco are TOUGH on clutches!

:wow: 78k on a 2001 and I thought my 37k was kinda high for my 2001. 

Chris


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## DKSF (Apr 4, 2003)

SilverE39 said:


> Question 1: Do I need a clutch replacement?
> 
> '01 E39 has 78, 000 miles (mainly freeway). When is it normally changed? I'm having Phaedrus look at it next Tuesday.
> 
> Quesion 2: Should I still drive it? I commute from Belmont to San Francisco everyday.


Experienced the same thing. I burned up my clutch in the same area a couple years ago. I was at a stop sign on a steep hill, when I tried to move forward from a dead stop, I released the clutch, took my foot completely off the pedal, and all I got was a lot of slipping and eventually smoke. There were cars behind me so I didn't really have any choice but to limp up that hill. At the time, my car only had about 30K on it, and the clutch never slipped on me before. I don't think CDV's and SF hill mix too well.

In any case, unless your clutch is still slipping, you probably don't need to replace it. You probably just took a couple years off your clutch .

To test it.....stop on a flat surface, pull up your parking brake and slowly engage the clutch (with some gas) and you should be able to feel if your clutch grabs or slips. Again, it should be fine to drive if it isn't slipping.

Obviously you'll need to replace the clutch eventually, but if it isn't slipping I would just wait until you really need to change it. This is my first manual BMW, so I don't know how long the clutch normally lasts, but I would expect at least 100K miles. BTW, Phaedrus is good (I used to take my car there) but they really aren't that much cheaper than the dealer.

I wouldn't have replaced mine at the time if I had to pay for it, but my tranny needed to be dropped for another issue and Weatherford BMW convinced BMWNA to replace my clutch under warranty.


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## SilverE39 (May 13, 2003)

Thanks for sharing your experience, DKSF. The clutch seems okay, now.....but the smell is still there. I will have a minor tune-up/oil change on Tuesday and will just have Phaedrus inspect the clutch.

BTW, that's a mouth-dropping E39 you got there.


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## DKSF (Apr 4, 2003)

Glad to hear that your clutch seems OK. 

It's funny, when this all happened to me, I immediately took my car to BMWSF to have it checked. They told me the clutch was toast, and needed to be replaced. Quoted me $1,800....I said WTF! $1,800!!!, the damn clutch kit is only $275....$1,525 for labor?!?!. Service writer say, "Yes, that's right." So I call Weatherford, and they say all in it will cost $925, and I can bring it in right away. I call SF back and ask why are they charging so much, then the service writer says that he never quoted me $1,800. He claims he said $975. So, I'm like, "$1,800 doesn't sound anything like $975, I want to talk to the service manager!" Service manager comes over and I tell him what happened, and he basically said "f" you, take the $975 or leave it. Freaking criminals.

So I said :flipoff: , and took it straight to Weatherford in Berkeley. The service advisor promptly kicked me out of there saying that there was no need to change it!

A couple months later, I'm having this continuing problem with not being able to get the shifter into first, take it to Weatherford to have it fixed under warranty. Tell them to replace the clutch since the tranny will be out so I don't have to pay for the labor, they agree. A week later, they call me back and say, "Hey, were sending you a check for the clutch, we got BMW to cover it under warranty."

Needless to say, I don't recommend BMWSF and highly recommend Weatherford.

I used Phaedrus primarily because it was super convenient since I lived in the city. There pricing is only marginally better than the dealer. Pretty much just used them for oil and fluid changes. Didn't find them much cheaper in price or better in service than the dealer for anything else.


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## zhangqj (Apr 6, 2003)

Ågent99 said:


> :wow: 78k on a 2001 and I thought my 37k was kinda high for my 2001.
> 
> Chris


Chris, do you know if a CDV-less clutch would be better at handling those SF hills? I have always had the impression (personal) that those hills were harder on brakes (going downhill) than clutches (climbing uphill). Maybe CDV is the difference?


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## cokray (Feb 13, 2003)

I get to joy of driving up and down those hills every day. I've smelled smoke a few times from slipping on the hills, but after it cools down everything is fine (my clutch doesn't slip). I'm sure I've taken quite a bit of life off of the clutch, but that's just how it goes. After slipping the clutch you'll notice it get's really "spongy" and feels like it's not engaging properly, normal feel will return when it cools down.

When on really steep hills I often set the handbrake and use it to hold position while I work the gas/clutch. This lets me take my time and not over-rev, which is really easy to do on a 30% grade with some moron glued to your bumper. Also, about this time I curse BMW for the DBW delay. It's a ritual of mine.

Edit: As far as I know my car is not equipped with the CDV (I believ e the only 3ers that have it are the XI's). I blame a generally vague clutch and terrible throttle response (DBW lag) for making it exceptionally difficult to do steep hill launches. Well, that and my general lack of coordination. But I don't have nearly as much trouble when driving other M/T equipped cars.


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## DKSF (Apr 4, 2003)

cokray said:


> When on really steep hills I often set the handbrake and use it to hold position while I work the gas/clutch. This lets me take my time and not over-rev, which is really easy to do on a 30% grade with some moron glued to your bumper. Also, about this time I curse BMW for the DBW delay. It's a ritual of mine.


Try that with a e39 handbrake  , it won't hold on any hill that's a little steep. Never driven an e46, but the e39 is the same, not very easy to get moving on a steep incline.


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## DKSF (Apr 4, 2003)

zhangqj said:


> Chris, do you know if a CDV-less clutch would be better at handling those SF hills? I have always had the impression (personal) that those hills were harder on brakes (going downhill) than clutches (climbing uphill). Maybe CDV is the difference?


Not sure what you mean by "better". It is much easier to work the clutch on a hill once the CDV has been removed.

Also, with the CDV, I always found it difficult to do a "quick" launch, especially on hills where it's helpful. It would just slip the clutch for a second or two, then engage. Irritating.


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## Ågent99 (Jan 7, 2002)

zhangqj said:


> Chris, do you know if a CDV-less clutch would be better at handling those SF hills? I have always had the impression (personal) that those hills were harder on brakes (going downhill) than clutches (climbing uphill). Maybe CDV is the difference?


DKSF said it just fine. Let me know if you'd like me to "adjust" your CDV for you. PM me.

Chris


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## Steve D (Oct 10, 2002)

Years ago they solved this problem with a device called a hillholder. It basically locked the brake line pressure when on a hill with the clutch disengaged. As the clutch pedal was released the brakes were released as well. This allowed you to have your right foot on the treadle and the car would not roll back.

This was done mechanically and was available as a factory option on some models. Today we could do this electronically perhaps integrated into the ABS system but they probably do not sell enough manual transmission cars to justify the expense.

Steve D


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## cokray (Feb 13, 2003)

DKSF said:


> Try that with a e39 handbrake  , it won't hold on any hill that's a little steep. Never driven an e46, but the e39 is the same, not very easy to get moving on a steep incline.


Really? The handbrake won't hold the car on a hill? That's makes it rather useless as a brake, doesn't it? I have to pull the brake pretty hard on mine to hold position on a steep hill, but it will certainly hold the car in place (albeit with some unpleasant creaking noises, but then it makes those when I set the brake in my driveway).

It is a tricky to get my car moving on a steep hill. It's difficult to describe, but what happens is that I can steadily release the clutch (which holding the engine at say, 1500 RPM) until it is 95% of the way out and the car still hasn't started rolling forwards. If I give it more gas it just starts burning the clutch up. If I release the clutch the rest of the way it will fully engage, either stalling or lurching off, depending upon how much gas I'm giving it and how steep the hill is.

My solution to the problem is the quickly come off the clutch while increasing the gas, either the car will start rolling or jump ahead as the clutch "pops", but at least I'm moving up the hill and haven't fried the clutch. By momentarily holding the parking brake as I do this I prevent the car from gaining any momentum in the wrong direction, which just makes the clutch situation worse.

The parking brake trick is a common one, I learned all about that before ever even driving a stick shift car...


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## cokray (Feb 13, 2003)

Steve D said:


> Years ago they solved this problem with a device called a hillholder. It basically locked the brake line pressure when on a hill with the clutch disengaged. As the clutch pedal was released the brakes were released as well. This allowed you to have your right foot on the treadle and the car would not roll back.
> 
> This was done mechanically and was available as a factory option on some models. Today we could do this electronically perhaps integrated into the ABS system but they probably do not sell enough manual transmission cars to justify the expense.
> 
> Steve D


Subaru still has this feature on some of their cars, I know it is available on 2002 and newer Foresters. Also, Studebaker was the first car company to offer such a feature.

BMW seems more interested in allowing their customers to adjust their climate control 500 different ways via an overcomplicated knob than in features that might actually be useful, such as hill holding manual transmissions.


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## DKSF (Apr 4, 2003)

cokray said:


> The parking brake trick is a common one, I learned all about that before ever even driving a stick shift car...


I don't use the handbrake on a hill because it's girly  . In any case, I find that there is too much slip in the clutch to launch smoothly on hills. I like to "pop" the clutch on hills, because burn outs are always cool :yikes:.

Actually, yes this is a pretty effective way to deal with rolling back, but seriously, the e39 brake is not especially good on steep hills. I always hate parking on steep hills because of this. Every car I have owned was a manual (except for a auto e39 I had prior to my current one) and have never had this much difficulty dealing with hills.


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## cokray (Feb 13, 2003)

DKSF said:


> I don't use the handbrake on a hill because it's girly  . In any case, I find that there is too much slip in the clutch to launch smoothly on hills. I like to "pop" the clutch on hills, because burn outs are always cool :yikes:.


I'm actually with you on the girly part -- those couple of times I burned my clutch was because I had people in the car and didn't want to seem weeny by pulling the brake. So instead I came off as an incompetent non-weeny by burning my clutch up  So the moral of the story is I'm a moron.

Sadly, burn-outs in my 325 with traction control on sound more like an agitated cricket than a racecar. Also, the stupid traction control cuts back the power, making the car bog right when I need the power the most, powering up a steep hill. I know I could disable the DSC, but that's a pain to do every time I am on a hill.

That said, I got a lot better at hill launches in this just through practice, but on the super steep hills (which, in SF, are downright scary, even in an automatic -- you know the hill you're going up is steep when you never shift out of 1st gear) I still often wimp out and use the brake. Better my pride than a $1000 clutch, I suppose.


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## the worm (Nov 4, 2004)

DKSF said:


> Glad to hear that your clutch seems OK.
> 
> It's funny, when this all happened to me, I immediately took my car to BMWSF to have it checked. They told me the clutch was toast, and needed to be replaced. Quoted me $1,800....I said WTF! $1,800!!!, the damn clutch kit is only $275....$1,525 for labor?!?!. Service writer say, "Yes, that's right." So I call Weatherford, and they say all in it will cost $925, and I can bring it in right away. I call SF back and ask why are they charging so much, then the service writer says that he never quoted me $1,800. He claims he said $975. So, I'm like, "$1,800 doesn't sound anything like $975, I want to talk to the service manager!" Service manager comes over and I tell him what happened, and he basically said "f" you, take the $975 or leave it. Freaking criminals.
> 
> ...


BMWSF is a joke... Phaedrus is great but if your car is under warranty, it is not an option. I am always disappointed when I leave BMWSF.


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