# Anyone have any issues yet with "contaminated fuel" and HPFP?



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

TDIwyse said:


> http://www.forums.bimmerfest.com/showthread.php?t=483991&highlight=water&page=2
> 
> Please see post #42. Then post #95. Water took out the 335d's whole fuel system at the tune of ~$10k.


I just reread them and maybe I missed it again but I did not see where they determined it definitely was water.

I believe in water seperators though. My trucks finds more than enough water to sell me on it. I also believe in regular fuel filter changes and baffled why it seems like BMW has no set interval for that. Of course I come from other diesels where the car/trucks always had a 15k interval for both fuel filters.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Agreed. 

However the fuel was obviously contaminated with water and sediment. The pictures of the cloudy fuel are exactly what it looks like if one adds water to diesel and mixes it up. There's obviously a bunch of other sediment in those pictures as well, based upon what I've drained out of my fuel filters in my other diesel vehicles. I'd wager several rounds of beer it was water and sediment that got past the fuel filter (which has no ability to warn the operator of water/sediment contamination) and took out the hpfp, injectors, etc. 

Having had 7 diesel vehicles over the last 15 years, this is the first one without a water/sediment warning, drainable, fuel filter. A filter system with a water/sediment sensor would've warned the owner as soon as that sludge hit the filter. Which would give warning to shut down the vehicle and check the filter. Which would've greatly reduced, or eliminated, the damage to the fuel system (based on my own personal experience).

It just makes me nervous not having one. And knowing that it's so easy to fit in the engine bay makes it even more enticing. But I design systems that require multiple redundant backups so I'm a bit conservative by nature . . .


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I really think it was more the sediment than the water. That sediment at these pressures would be very destructive. Plus it was an insurance job and seemed clear they over reacted on what all they did. 

In my 20+ years of driving diesels, my current truck is the only one that has had a water separator warning light on the dash. Only one that had a water separator too or that I knew about at least. After having one though it kind of amazes me that all don't have one. I think these BMW cars just have one fuel filter, if that is true then it is the first diesel powered thing I have owned that did not use two filters. Then like I said, I am still baffled that filters are not changed at 15k miles and actually that nothing blatantly obvious to me as to when they ever would be replaced as a maintenance item.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

I think the sediment would clog the filter as opposed to pass thru the filter and damage the hpfp/injectors. However, if the clogging starved the hpfp of fuel then it could have damaged the hpfp in short order. Over on the tdiclub discussing the common rail vw hpfp mess they have posted a plot from Bosch about the lifespan of a hpfp with different lubricity ratings for fuel. Low lubricity fuel radically reduces the hpfp lifespan. Water in fuel strips the lubrication properties of diesel. 

Just for grins I went out and got a sample of fuel. Then started adding small amounts of water and mixing it up. The pics are Dry, 0.5ml pre-mix, 0.5ml post mix, 2 ml post mix, 3 ml post mix.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

For some reason I was ignoring the fact the older would catch the sediment. Shame we can't know what was actually broken over what was all replaced on his car.


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## swood02 (Nov 30, 2010)

TDIwyse said:


> Hypothetically, if someone was of the belief that EVERY diesel engine should have a water separating, check-able, drain-able, 2-5um fuel filter then it appears on the 335d such a person could, hypothetically, take advantage of the fuel lines and open space in this area . . .


Hypothetically, of course


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Of course . . .

Was doing some more hypothesizing on this.

Those bolts I was showing originally may not be such a good choice. The threads are serrated and they don't have a lot of surface area to support much weight. There are several other BIG bolts in that area that make a great bracket holder, but the bracket construction is more complicated.

Tying into the fuel stream could, hypothetically be easily accomplished right at the output of the oem fuel filter. A set of pics for this location (and procedure for changing the oem filter) is located here:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387120

Couple notes on that thread.:

1. Wouldn't recommend the use of a hacksaw. Using a small flat edge screw driver and a set of pliers will hypothetically remove that clamp in no time.

2. The way the author suggests to initiate the in tank lift pump to push fuel and vent the air introduced during the change does not work on my D. However, if you were to, say, use a BT (www.bavariantechnic.com/) then you could go under the Fuel Pump menu to the Activation sub menu and turn on/off the in tank lift pump. The fact that he wrote "may take a few cranks
" to start his engine makes me believe he wasn't, in fact, initiating the lift pump like he thought. I think this because for, some reason, I know that if you cycle the lift pump with the BT then the engine will fire up as fast as normal.

3. The OEM rubber hose extension has an I.D. of 8mm. A 3/8 hose barb can be put into that size hose if you are strong enough and determined enough.

Some things to consider if you are messing with the fuel system.

When dealing with a fuel system, cleanliness is next to Godliness. Anytime you open up the system you introduce air and contamination.

If you change a filter you introduce air and contamination on the dirty and clean side.

If you add an additional filter you introduce air and contamination.

I would HIGHLY recommend initiating the lift pump anytime you add a new filter (OEM or supplemental) and push a lot of fuel through it/them into a separate container (to flush any debris that might exist in filters/hoses that may have been introduced during manufacture, shipping, storage, etc.) before connecting back to the "clean" tubing that goes to the HPFP/injectors.

Upon connecting everything back up, run that lift pump some more to push ALL the air out of the system before trying to start the engine. This is due to the fact that air has virtually 0 lubrication properties to protect the HPFP. Lubrication of the HPFP is critical for a long, healthy life of the HPFP. See post #384 here from the ongong TDI HPFP saga (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=308323&page=26) for data from Bosch regarding HPFP lifespan vs. lubricity.

Fortunately our BMW's are using a HPFP that has proven to be (in my opinion) more robust than the generation the TDI's are using.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> I just reread them and maybe I missed it again but I did not see where they determined it definitely was water.
> 
> .


+1. Bad fuel is bad fuel. Doesn't matter how many filters you have. If I pour sand in my fuel tank the HPFP will die.

The problem with the TDI's is either bad fuel and/or manufacturing defect from the supplier.

Thankfully the fuel filter in our cars also removes water so there's no reason for anyone of us to implement a solution in search of a problem.

I simply refuse to loose sleep over this kind of thing.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> +1. Bad fuel is bad fuel. Doesn't matter how many filters you have. If I pour sand in my fuel tank the HPFP will die.
> 
> The problem with the TDI's is either bad fuel and/or manufacturing defect from the supplier.
> 
> ...


Our filters can only hold so much water. So what happens when they can't hold more? When I get a tank of diesel in my powerstroke that has water in it, I might have to drain my separator many times across several days to get it all out. I only know it is there because of the warning light on my dash. Since it is a water separator, does that stop the excess water from getting passed the filter when it is already full of water?

This does remind me that way back when I got bad gas in one of my porsches the filter did not stop all the dirt and grime. The stuff took out at least multiple injectors.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Just to clarify my position . . . I'm not encouraging or discouraging altering your filtration system. The system as designed will provide adequate coverage for the vast majority of people over a reasonable lifespan as evidenced by the low number of reports of hpfp related failures.

However there's no doubt that added protection can be achieved. Many studies (Caterpillar and others) show increased injector life with low um filtration. Water and lack of lubrication shorten the life of hpfp's. All these components are expensive to replace.

And the info on running the lift pump (even if changing the oem fuel filter) was something I hadn't seen mentioned before and is a very important point for people outside of warranty who may be doing maintenance themselves.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

TDIwyse said:


> However there's no doubt that added protection can be achieved. Many studies (Caterpillar and others) show increased injector life with low um filtration. Water and lack of lubrication shorten the life of hpfp's. .


Of course but to what end? Some TDI guys go nuts over this thing. Trying to "improve" a system which will function normally for the lifespan of the car. Also don't forget this isn't heavy equip which uses 500 ppm sulphur diesel that has been sitting in an exposed tank at a job site for 2 months.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

One could argue to what end on many things car people end up over analyzing and worrying about. Such as types of oil used and how often to change that.

I personally would never both adding a water seperator to a vehicle but that is more me just not wanting to mess with things. After having one though from the factory, I have always been quite surprised just how much water ends up in the fuel system. So I can understand why anyone might want to put forth the extra effort to add a seperator to any of their vehicles.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Of course but to what end?


To extend the lifespan of the system.



BMWTurboDzl said:


> Some TDI guys go nuts over this thing. Trying to "improve" a system which will function normally for the lifespan of the car.


The new common rail TDI's lifespan is starting to look increasingly unsatisfactory to many diesel enthusiasts. And possibly the NHTSA.

Besides TDI guys, you could also throw in owners of Cummins, Duramax, Powerstroke, Sprinter, Mercedez . . . .

And what constitutes a lifespan? To get you through warranty? Or to get you to multiple 100,000 miles? The common rail diesels availble here since 2001 (first year of the Duramax) that have/had 100k powertrain warranties (2x our D's) have low um water separating, water warning, drainable filter systems. If your designed lifespan is 50-100k miles then design tradeoffs are much, MUCH different than if the designed lifespan is 200-300k.



BMWTurboDzl said:


> Also don't forget this isn't heavy equip which uses 500 ppm sulphur diesel that has been sitting in an exposed tank at a job site for 2 months.


Correct. It's a precision, incredibly high pressure, modern, common rail injection system which makes cleanliness and lubricity even more important. Especially since ULSD has less inherent lubricity and greater water holding capacity than the previous LSD.

I attached a couple references (from a whole bunch of available reports) about the cost/benefit tradeoffs of have having outstanding filtration capability for water and contamination which will hopefully answer the question "to what end".

http://www.fleetwatch.co.za/magazines/may00/007.htm

http://www.fleetwatch.co.za/magazines/NovDec08/61-A few microns.htm

Not all of us have the same goal for our vehicles. Not all of us have the same operating environments. Design tradeoffs are a part of life. As an engineer I like to understand as much of the cost/benefit tradeoffs as possible. And improve upon the baseline design if it fits my situation. You will likely have different goals than me, and that's OK.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

TDIwyse said:


> And what constitutes a lifespan? To get you through warranty? Or to get you to multiple 100,000 miles? The common rail diesels availble here since 2001 (first year of the Duramax) that have/had 100k powertrain warranties (2x our D's) have low um water separating, water warning, drainable filter systems. If your designed lifespan is 50-100k miles then design tradeoffs are much, MUCH different than if the designed lifespan is 200-300k.


I think Ford still puts in water separators but do not think they have had the 100k mile warrantees on their diesel engines since the 6.0 Powerstroke which was prior to the 6.4 that is prior to the current 6.7 I actually have wondered about this because the 6.0 was plagued with so many issues and the latest engine being all Ford build/design is supposed to be so much better. To me, as a 6.0 owner, it is not too reassuring that the latest/greatest is going to be better when they will not even warranty it for the same period of time. It is interesting that the domestics even find the need to have a drainable water separator when I think they all call for filter replacements around 15k miles. Then our cars appaear to have no set or obviously set filter replacement schedule or the dual filter setups and lack a drainable water separator. I think a little too much faith has been put into the fuels qualities over here.


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## DnA Diesel (Jul 31, 2010)

TDIwyse said:


> ...
> Fortunately our BMW's are using a HPFP that has proven to be (in my opinion) more robust than the generation the TDI's are using.


Indeed. The Bosch CP-3 is a very reliable CRFP. Less some minor differences with wiring looms, etc... this is the same CR pump that is used on the Duramax and the Powerstroke diesels.

There may be some increased risk where fuel quality in other parts of the world from where the car was designed may impact the reliability of the engine. Shades of the high-sulphur gasolines of the mid-90's affecting the top of the cylinder, resulting in degraded leakdown pressures in nickel-silicon engines (the BMW Nikisil-block M60 as well as Jag and Merc high nickel were well known victims of bad North American gas) is what happens when the designers depend on reasonable fuel standards in other markets.

While an OEM water-separator would no doubt guard against poor quality fuels with higher than acceptable water content, sticking with a reputable, high-volume fuel provider should minimize the risk of water damage. In theory, providers must supply ULSD to the ATSM D975 1-D S15 standard, which includes maximum allowable water content. There are no doubt suppliers and stations out there that may not take as much care in the storage and transport of diesel as they should, but you should still be in decent shape sticking to well-used, fuel stations.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

DnA Diesel said:


> While an OEM water-separator would no doubt guard against poor quality fuels with higher than acceptable water content, sticking with a reputable, high-volume fuel provider should minimize the risk of water damage. In theory, providers must supply ULSD to the ATSM D975 1-D S15 standard, which includes maximum allowable water content. There are no doubt suppliers and stations out there that may not take as much care in the storage and transport of diesel as they should, but you should still be in decent shape sticking to well-used, fuel stations.


I have always done just this for all of my cars in regards to sticking to well-used, appear to be well maintained and name brand stations. Yet still find it pretty amazing just how often my water separator does get filled up. We are not talking monthly occurrences or anything but it does happen none the less and more than once a year.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Good points all.

I've been looking off and on for several months trying to find a filtration spec on our D's fuel filter. Have been unsuccessful. Does anyone know what the rating is? It's size is really small compared to what I'm used to seeing on my other diesel filters that call for shorter change intervals.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

magbarn said:


> Not trying to start a firestorm here, but I'm curious as a few VW TDI 2009+ have had their HPFP's grenade sending bits of metal into their common rail - ergo destroying the fuel system, causing $11,000+ repair bills. Some VW dealers have been blaming "contaminated diesel" and not honoring the repair under warranty. I hope our d fuel filters keeps the crap out well enough to prevent this from happening.


Do a search in this forum for my post of the issues I had with bad diesel fuel (from a local BP station). It caused 10k worth of damage to my car. Luckily my insurance covered it. The car was in the shop for a month while they diagnosed the problem. The car has been running great since it was fixed...and I will never go to another BP station as long as I live.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Sad thing is the contamination you got was probably from something local to the station and most stations are not corporate owned. So simply avoiding the brand probably is not buying any added insurance from it happening again. I have had contaminated fuel over the years from Chevron, Shell, Exxon, and Shamrock(Vallero now) stations.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Sad thing is the contamination you got was probably from something local to the station and most stations are not corporate owned. So simply avoiding the brand probably is not buying any added insurance from it happening again. I have had contaminated fuel over the years from Chevron, Shell, Exxon, and Shamrock(Vallero now) stations.


That was pointed out to me before...but nonetheless.


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## krsabs (Apr 22, 2011)

Wondering if there are any additives that might work to take care of the water problem, e.g.: seafoam.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

krsabs said:


> Wondering if there are any additives that might work to take care of the water problem, e.g.: seafoam.


Some additives can deal with water to a limited extent. True water contamination should be dealt with by draining the tank and lines and replacing the filter.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

krsabs said:


> Wondering if there are any additives that might work to take care of the water problem, e.g.: seafoam.


Seafoam for water problem? seafoam treatment is used for carbon deposit cleaning has nothing to do with water in diesel :tsk:


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

The excellent technology guide shared in the other thread  by Pasa-d has this statement: 


> The high pressure fuel system is mostly identical in design and
> function as compared to the European version. However, some
> components have been adapted to the *different fuel specification*.
> These components are:
> ...


The only thing that makes sense to me is that they are referring to the sub-standard fuel lubricity we have here in the US being addressed by better material and coatings. Is this why we aren't seeing exploding HPFP in BMW diesels while the VW's seem to have a problem?


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## TopDog5450 (Feb 11, 2011)

railroader said:


> Guys, it's like we're all in the same boat holding our "collective" breaths, but I still have a good feeling about the fuel delivery systems of our fabulous new cars. While I probably wouldn't put any "third world" diesel fuel in my car (don't plan on a trip through the Americas down to the tip of Argentina) I feel pretty secure with the mainstream fuels such as Shell (my personal favorite choice if available) and Chevron....


However, the independent stations in the U.S.A selling your standard diesel fuel are much cheaper than the overly expensive name brand stations, e.g., Shell and Chevron.

No problems with the HPFP or diesel fuel sold by the independent stations.


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## krsabs (Apr 22, 2011)

tlak77 said:


> Seafoam for water problem? seafoam treatment is used for carbon deposit cleaning has nothing to do with water in diesel :tsk:


Seafoam indicates to the contrary: http://www.seafoamsales.com/tech-info-diesel-engines/ - which is what I thought when I posted my question, but let me be more to the point, does Seafoam work as claimed, and if not, does anything else work to remove water in diesel fuel? Or is the problem with water such that only solved by the suggested draining of the tank, purging of all lines coupled with filter replacement?


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## TopDog5450 (Feb 11, 2011)

*Biodiesel*

Are you advocating the use of B5 biodiesel to solve the problem?


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## Scartissue27 (May 15, 2011)

LOL those VW guys are probably making there own biodiesel with these rising fuel prices. LMFAO!!!!!!!!!


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## krsabs (Apr 22, 2011)

TopDog5450 said:


> Are you advocating the use of B5 biodiesel to solve the problem?


TD - if you are directing this question to me because I've inquired about additives to reduce/alleviate the problem of water in fuel, then I respond: no.

I confess, I don't know enough of biodiesel to know its constituent parts, nor its waste by-products, but I will presume that the 'bio' prefix means it is some form of food grain (e.g.: soy?), and given that presumption alone, I would stay away from it as I am completely against the diversion of any food supplies towards fuel production.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

krsabs said:


> Seafoam indicates to the contrary: http://www.seafoamsales.com/tech-info-diesel-engines/ - which is what I thought when I posted my question, but let me be more to the point, does Seafoam work as claimed, and if not, does anything else work to remove water in diesel fuel? Or is the problem with water such that only solved by the suggested draining of the tank, purging of all lines coupled with filter replacement?


krsabs, 
Bottom line is that If you have large amount of water in the fuel you cannot do much about it. Our ds don't have water separators (some believe that fuel filter should trap some but I have doubts- where would the water go:rofl, draining the tank would be your only option. If you are stressing about it use Power Service additive - white bottle which is designed for winter and regulates water in the fuel - keep in mind that BMW does not allow any type of additives :eeps:
Power Service has been in the industry for years and I would rather use their products that one advertised by seafoam; statements they make on their side are just plain weird.


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## krsabs (Apr 22, 2011)

tlak77 said:


> krsabs,
> Bottom line is that If you have large amount of water in the fuel you cannot do much about it. . . . . - *keep in mind that BMW does not allow any type of additives* :eeps:


You know that's pretty funny about disallowing additives, given that it's pretty common knowledge that BMW slaps their name on bottles of Techron and if you buy Techron from its patent holder, Chevron, my recollection is that it clearly states that it is for use with both diesel and gasoline.

But let's take this ridiculous thought of 'no additives' further: and I'll stick with Chevron for the moment - Chevron's diesel fuel comes with Techron added. In fact, from what little I know of the fueling industry, every freakin' company out there puts additives in their fuel, so if one were to follow BMW's prohibition to the hilt, one might not be able to drive one's car because there would be no fuel available.

Finally - while I'm not now going to waste the time to track down the either Canadian or Euro link I found sometime back showing all the BMW chemicals available, there seemed to be several additives that were diesel fuel specific other than DEF.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Techron is not in Chevron diesel. Techron D is in Chevron diesel but only in very limited places out in California, if I remember correctly. But with that said, I do see your point because other additives do exist in fuels just depending on which brand you go with.


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## TopDog5450 (Feb 11, 2011)

*No additives!*

BMW does not recommend additives because there are additives in most brand-name diesel fuel--brilliant! Finally, I can throw away the STA-BIL.:flush:


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

TopDog5450 said:


> BMW does not recommend additives because there are additives in most brand-name diesel fuel--brilliant! Finally, I can throw away the STA-BIL.:flush:


I thought they did not recommend them because they have no way of testing for all of them to know which ones might cause more harm than good. Probably with the biggest worry being towards the emissions systems but perhaps towards other pieces of the system as well with equally sized worries. I know with the branded fuels that the oil companies test their additives in all sorts of scenarios or at least I know Chevron does. I have said it in the past but I know for a fact that for at least a couple years now Chevron has been testing the very type of engines our cars run on. I also know that in regards to additives that they have all sorts of different engines and scenarios they test them on, be it a fuel additive or an oil one.

Now whether their is just some sort of blind trust between the auto maker and the fuel makers or some sort of colaboration is beyond my knowledge. But with smaller additive companies there just is no way they can or have done the same level of testing.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Talking about BMW stand on the additive is futile point anyhow in my opinion. Most if not all diesel fuel distributed advertise (and use) additives therefor I would say that D2 in pure form does not exist at all.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

And I seriously doubt BMW does not fully realize that fuel sold at stations has additives approved by the branding on that fuel station. To take the stance that it is pointless to consider their stance on additives since all fuel has additives then implies might as well put any old snake oil sold on the shelf into any car.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> And I seriously doubt BMW does not fully realize that fuel sold at stations has additives approved by the branding on that fuel station.


I don't know, they did blame ethanol for causing HPFP failures....
As far as dismissing any additives (good or bad) by car manufacturers is a legally safe way to go.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

tlak77 said:


> I don't know, they did blame ethanol for causing HPFP failures....
> As far as dismissing any additives (good or bad) by car manufacturers is a legally safe way to go.


And I am betting they were fully aware from the get go that ethanol was in the fuel. Whether they knew ahead of time it was damaging or whether it was the real cause, who really knows. But yes I agree just dimissing any is the legally safe way to go.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

tlak77 said:


> ... I would say that D2 in pure form does not exist at all.


Sure it does. All diesel from the refinery to the distribution terminal is additive free because of concerns about adverse effects of additives mixing between fuels that share the same pipeline. 

You can be garanteed that all diesel you get from a retail pump does indeed have a lubricity additive at a minimum in order to meet ASTM lubricity spec.

As I posted yesterday, BMW is fully aware of the inadequate lubricity in US fuel (ASTM spec is not up to Bosch recommendations). That is why they used "special coatings and materials" on the critical components of this system. Makes me feel much better about considering a used one now. :thumbup:


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## danix (Jul 17, 2011)

Bump. Was considering a 335d but cheaped out and got a used 2010 Jetta TDI. 4 days later my HPFP failed, it's in the shop now.
I would be really curious to see if there are any reports of similar failures on the 335d. I'm also wondering how similar/dissimilar the pumps on these two vehicles are.


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