# ECU vs. Programable Logic Controller



## Coqui_pr (Nov 11, 2016)

As I spend more time reading these forums, I realized how complex BMW computers and sensors are. I wonder if there is an open source group reverese engineering monitoring of sensors and implementing pieces of code using commercially available PLCs to migrate the move into more customizable control options.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

The code is copyright and BMW closely protects it. See Right to Repair at EFF.org. This is what the DMCA is all about.


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## Coqui_pr (Nov 11, 2016)

Not to steal the code. That is illegal. To mimic its fuctionality with an alternate means. Replacing one computer with another. BMW owns their code, vehicle owners own the hardware, I believe people can write their own code to control their hardware any way they choose. But the reverse engineering I was thinking is not referring to their code. For example: Using oxigen sensor readings (and other parameters) to perform changes to the fuel/air mixture. Open source in a more modern PLC, that can be modified by the community. Just an idea.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

How is that not plagiarism? The DCMA does not protect so shallowly as only the lowest level code but protects the embodiment of the concepts, the intellectual property.

I Am Not A Lawyer, but BMW has troops of attorneys.


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## Coqui_pr (Nov 11, 2016)

Well, think of it this way. Strip the vehicle of all BMW computers, fit a computer that makes it operate without any BMW code. A PLC brain and a buses of sensor readers and signals going out to control/feed information to other sensors. Have the PLC being developed by the community, all open source. Not their code, but the PLC manufacturer's code. If the PLC manufacturer requires a licence, it is very likely whoever is developing/using to code has the hardware (there could be simulators outhere, I do not know). I understand the DCMA issue, but basic operation is public domain. Example: If a team is writing the alarm/security module of such PLC, opening a door on the car should trigger the security protection, whatever the code you write specify (like honk the horn). How is that plagiarism? So all those alarm systems out there pay somebody for using an alarm? That is basic electronics and software operation. The cost of hardware may be prohibitive, but conceptually, I see no problem because there is no use of their intelectual property.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Coqui_pr said:


> Well, think of it this way. Strip the vehicle of all BMW computers, fit a computer that makes it operate without any BMW code. A PLC brain and a buses of sensor readers and signals going out to control/feed information to other sensors. Have the PLC being developed by the community, all open source. Not their code, but the PLC manufacturer's code. If the PLC manufacturer requires a licence, it is very likely whoever is developing/using to code has the hardware (there could be simulators outhere, I do not know). I understand the DCMA issue, but basic operation is public domain. Example: If a team is writing the alarm/security module of such PLC, opening a door on the car should trigger the security protection, whatever the code you write specify (like honk the horn). How is that plagiarism? So all those alarm systems out there pay somebody for using an alarm? That is basic electronics and software operation. The cost of hardware may be prohibitive, but conceptually, I see no problem because there is no use of their intelectual property.


Your basically building a car at that point, since everything about BMW is controlled by its sensors and software.

What would be the goal of such a thing you are talking about, other than boosting HP or something (which is already being done by add on companies using chips that fool the current BMW software into thinking one thing when something else is the case)?


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## Coqui_pr (Nov 11, 2016)

Guys, I was just brainstorming. It is a monumental project. But you will get the ability to have a more modern reliable controler (in the end). You may have a chance to add features your car did not come equipped with. Instead of fooling BMW systems with pseudo signals, and gadgets, you can tweak it at the code level, everybody can see your code, others can point out problems with it, etc. If you are happy with BMW systems keep using them, fooling them, etc. If you want to have all control, the project may be your thing. Is just an idea. Maybenot profitable, but if you get 100 people writing that open source code, it can be very powerful very quick. Again, just an idea.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Coqui_pr said:


> Guys, I was just brainstorming. It is a monumental project. But you will get the ability to have a more modern reliable controler (in the end). You may have a chance to add features your car did not come equipped with. Instead of fooling BMW systems with pseudo signals, and gadgets, you can tweak it at the code level, everybody can see your code, others can point out problems with it, etc. If you are happy with BMW systems keep using them, fooling them, etc. If you want to have all control, the project may be your thing. Is just an idea. Maybenot profitable, but if you get 100 people writing that open source code, it can be very powerful very quick. Again, just an idea.


You still havent mentioned how thats not completely re designing a new car which has nothing to do with BMW, or what the benefit is.

I certainly would not want to drive in an open source car, especially given the state of current network security etc (and I work in IT).

What you are describing is creating a car company and taking a shell of a car, and building a new car from it.


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## Coqui_pr (Nov 11, 2016)

No, I was not thinking on competing with any manufacturer. I particularly like new cars and their operation. I was thinking that as vehicles get old, something like this can bring new life to those vehicles left behind. A universal PLC (now controlling like an ECU) but in an old vehicle. One system to do it all. For example, if your vehicle is so old that has no ABS valve controlling system, you need not to load the ABS piece. If it has no alarm system you do not need to use that one; if you want to add an alarm, add the sensors and the module for alarm.

BTW JJ, I too work on IT. Also, not a company for profit (or sustained with donations like LinuxMint), only for the love of coding and sustaining our old vehicles. I would drive a car like that, risky, sure, same as any DIY project, with the difference that some projects are more risky than others. This will be one. LOL


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