# BMW: reliable?



## alpinewhite325i (Jan 20, 2002)

Wallenrod said:


> It was not my only or primary requirement but it was one of them. I think they are fairly reliable in general. And more importantly they are fairly durable. Unlike most Japanese or American cars.
> All anecdotal evidence is not worth much but I have friends with new Accords and Camrys and they have quite a bit of reliability and durability problems in their cars. IMO they are really crappily mass produced vehicles. But most people don't really care. They don't even notice that their tires need air and engine new oil. But as long as they can move forward (and occasionally backwards) they give their vehicles top notch marks in the reliability department.


 You've got to be kidding.

I'm sure a lemon may get out once and a while, but overall Honda's / Toyotas are the most reliable cars money can buy.

Period.


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## Terry Kennedy (Sep 21, 2002)

jstalin said:


> For the BMW owners, would you rate BMW as being reliable? The reason I ask is they rank very low on all indexes


Aside from some annoying problems when new (< 100 miles), my wagon has been rock solid for 29 months / 40,000 miles so far. The only non-scheduled maintenance was a bad ignition coil, and I showed up at a random dealer (I was traveling) and was in and out with 6 new coils in less than an hour.

I also think it is holding up well to NY-area roads - almost all of the squeaks and rattles are from stuff I put in the car (stuff in the glove box / warning triangle in the trunk / etc.) and the rest are easy to deal with (change in the change holder, seat belt not fully retracted on the passenger side, etc.).

I plan on keeping this wagon forever.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

alpinewhite325i said:


> You've got to be kidding.
> 
> I'm sure a lemon may get out once and a while, but overall Honda's / Toyotas are the most reliable cars money can buy.
> 
> Period.


Based on what? JD Power survey, resale value, anecdotal evidence or common belief? As I said, anecdotal evidence is not worth much but both of their cars have plenty of issues. Plastic parts warp/break, rubber door insulation detaches etc. plus some minor mechanical/electrical stuff. They don't really care about their cars and they don't even notice most of these things or at least it doesn't bother them much. When it does, they bring it in and have it fixed and they are happy. Honda and Toyota spent a lot of money to make you believe they make bullet-proof boring cars. 
One of the better examples is the joint Toyota/GM plant in Fremont, CA. On the same production line the same workers produce Toyotas and GM cars (I think mostly Pontiacs). Guess what? Toyotas sell better, have better resale value and are perceived as much more reliable vehicles. I'm not saying that they aren't but it's perfect example of well spent propaganda money (aka marketing).


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## alpinewhite325i (Jan 20, 2002)

Wallenrod said:


> Based on what? JD Power survey, resale value, anecdotal evidence or common belief? As I said, anecdotal evidence is not worth much but both of their cars have plenty of issues. Plastic parts warp/break, rubber door insulation detaches etc. plus some minor mechanical/electrical stuff. They don't really care about their cars and they don't even notice most of these things or at least it doesn't bother them much. When it does, they bring it in and have it fixed and they are happy. Honda and Toyota spent a lot of money to make you believe they make bullet-proof boring cars.
> One of the better examples is the joint Toyota/GM plant in Fremont, CA. On the same production line the same workers produce Toyotas and GM cars (I think mostly Pontiacs). Guess what? Toyotas sell better, have better resale value and are perceived as much more reliable vehicles. I'm not saying that they aren't but it's perfect example of well spent propaganda money (aka marketing).


Based on exactly what you stated, in addition to personal experience with several vehicals.

Like I said, when large volumes are produced there are going to be some that don't live up to expectation. But for the most part, I think quality / reliability is very high.

I do agree with you about the GM / Toyota (NUMMI I think) joint venture. A few years back, used Prizms could be had for basically nothing compared to the Corrolla's. A prime example of the ignorant nature of most consumers.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

jstalin said:


> For the BMW owners, would you rate BMW as being reliable? The reason I ask is they rank very low on all indexes


Yes, as an owner, very reliable. Note the sample size (=1) though, as well as a new car bought near the end of its model run (3 series E46 - 2003 MY). So would have thought the bugs would have been worked out of this model. :dunno:

I can't talk about the 5er or 7er. I know my MBZ (99 C280) was a major dissapointment, reliability wise, so while reliability was not a primary purchase influencer, it was important.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

So far (45,000) my car has not been reliable, in fact my '01 325 is the most unreliable car I've owned, I have an appointment tomorrow for another strange noise on cold startup. I attribute this below average reliability to the complexity of the car, this gives me some concern about the up coming E90 and its added complexity. My guess is that the new E90 would be a good candidate for a BMW extended warranty.

Aside from the inconvenience of a service visit every 4 or 5 months the car starts every morning and has never left me stranded. I'm hoping I will have fixed all the "little" problems on my 325 before he warranty runs out in April. 

Even with the frequent service visits I really like my car; it looks nice and drives great.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

alpinewhite325i said:


> Based on exactly what you stated, in addition to personal experience with several vehicals.
> 
> Like I said, when large volumes are produced there are going to be some that don't live up to expectation. But for the most part, I think quality / reliability is very high.
> 
> I do agree with you about the GM / Toyota (NUMMI I think) joint venture. A few years back, used Prizms could be had for basically nothing compared to the Corrolla's. A prime example of the ignorant nature of most consumers.


Not totaly ignorant.GM has different parts suppliers than Toyota and with that in mined the quality could differ.
vern


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

mkh said:


> A quick answer to your question is NO.
> 
> I have owned 4 BMWs in the past 15 years, and none of them qualifies in my definition of being reliable. I also had owned a bunch of Hondas and Acuras. The number of problems I had in any one of the BMWs is more than that of ALL the Hondas and Acuras combined.
> 
> ...


Honestly you are comparing apples and oranges. My BMX bike was obviously more reliable then any of my cars  . Much like comparing a Camry to a bimmer. Announcement: The more complicated a vehicle, the more likely it will break, hence the 7 series. sheesh.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

alpinewhite325i said:


> Based on exactly what you stated, in addition to personal experience with several vehicals.
> 
> Like I said, when large volumes are produced there are going to be some that don't live up to expectation. But for the most part, I think quality / reliability is very high.
> 
> I do agree with you about the GM / Toyota (NUMMI I think) joint venture. A few years back, used Prizms could be had for basically nothing compared to the Corrolla's. A prime example of the ignorant nature of most consumers.


Yep, NUMMI-built, Toyota designed, GM badged vehices probably represent a very good deal. The current Pontiac Vibe/ Toyota Matrix falls into this category too.


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## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

jstalin said:


> For the BMW owners, would you rate BMW as being reliable? The reason I ask is they rank very low on all indexes


BullSh*T.

BMWs are the most reliable german cars. They are definitely more reliable than MBENZ and VW's(and AUdis).

Engineerly wise, they are the best.
Driving experience has yet to be matched by anyone.

OK, so they have some minor control arm bushing problems, and the disks fade earlier than most japanese cars, but if you want a household appliace buy a MITSUBISHI.

If you want a car, buy a bemmer!


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

BTW, for the original poster, here's my summary of the different points of view that you'll see expressed in every "BMW reliability" discussion you'll ever see. My point is that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

in no particular order:
1. My BMW has never had any problems, all BMWs are wonderful, i've owned (insert some large number here) of them and everything else is crap
1a. Consumer Reports and JD Power are (scams, junk, etc). Who cares what they say?
2. My BMW has been a complete disaster because of (insert lots of small things like rattles, sqeuaks, etc) and they're all horrible
3. My BMW has been a complete disaster because of (insert lots of big problems like engine failures
4. Some BMW models and years score higher in reliability surveys than others
5. BMWs are pretty good, but they're not as good as some other makes in terms of reliability and not as bad as some other European makes. 
6. BMWs aren't that reliable, but who cares? its all about the driving experience. Besides, these are very "complex" cars and reliability problems are inevitable.
7. BMWs aren't terrible, but poor dealer service exascerbates the problems
8. All Hondas and Toyotas are more reliable than all BMWs
9. Never own a BMW outside of the warranty
10. A BMW will be reliable of you perform all of the scheduled maintenancce


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## Rowag (Nov 12, 2004)

This may help.


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## Curious Joel (Oct 2, 2004)

Both my BMWs have been reliable. I had an '02 X5, and I had two problems with that. The Mass Airflow Sensor went, causing the car to stall every time it stopped. Also, the ignition coils failed. I now have an '03 330xi with 51,000 miles and the only problem has been the ignition coils. The dealer service was excellent, though. Any car will have problems. BMWs have them too, but it's worth the small problems to drive an excellent car.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

misterlance said:


> Honestly you are comparing apples and oranges. My BMX bike was obviously more reliable then any of my cars  . Much like comparing a Camry to a bimmer. Announcement: The more complicated a vehicle, the more likely it will break, hence the 7 series. sheesh.


Ok, at least you admitted that BMW is less reliable. You are just making some justifications as to why it is not reliable.

More complicated? What makes you think your 3-series is more complicated than other cars? What's so interesting is that most of their problems are NOT on the complicated parts but the simple ones. A few most common examples they have are window regulators, stereo/speakers, ignition coils, etc. Unless you tell me that their power windows and speakers are much more technologically advanced and complicated than other cars, why everyone can make a power window works but BMW? I don't consider a BMW more complicated than others (except the 7 series which is a disaster). And I'm not talking about comparing individual cars or lemons. But in general, it is not as reliable as the Japanese, and this is a fact. By the way, I love my BMWs regardless of their reliability. So I'm not trashing it, but I'm not fooling myself either. I'm simply being honest and stating the facts.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

mkh said:


> What makes you think your 3-series is more complicated than other cars?


Have you driven a Ford lately? (new Mustang excluded)


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## jrp (Nov 11, 2004)

robg said:


> 8. All Hondas and Toyotas are more reliable than all BMWs


And we have to keep in mind that the very definition of _reliability_ is all relative. As enthusiasts/car nuts, we tend to expect more out of a car...every little thing that goes wrong counts as a big demerit to reliability.

On the other hand, those who buy Camrys (and other boring cars, including Lexus) are less demanding, anything short of a connecting rod failure does not consitute as a hit to reliability.


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## Rowag (Nov 12, 2004)

jrp said:


> And we have to keep in mind that the very definition of _reliability_ is all relative. As enthusiasts/car nuts, we tend to expect more out of a car...every little thing that goes wrong counts as a big demerit to reliability.
> 
> On the other hand, those who buy Camrys (and other boring cars, including Lexus) are less demanding, anything short of a connecting rod failure does not consitute as a hit to reliability.


 The biggest flaw with BMWs has been and is the electrical systems. This includes any electrical-related mechanicals (seat motors, power windows, power locks, etc.)

Bosch just doesn't make as reliable a part as what the Japanese car manufacturers use. A 25,000+ unit recall for seat heaters that burn through your seat? Remember the wave of ignition coil problems with recent BMWs? How about stalling ZHP motors? When's the last time a Toyota or Honda *in its seventh model year* needed its ECU flashed? :thumbdwn:

BMW also tends to have more of these specific little gizmos than other manufacturers as well, and tends to specialize them for specific applications. All of the little motors inside of a 3-series are different beasts built for specific purposes.

I had a 1987 Toyota Celica GTS in 94-96 that had a power sunroof, power windows, and flip-up headlights. I was installing a stereo and looked at all of these motors - each of them was the *exact* same part and part number. Even the wiper blades were powered by the same type of motor! If that motor broke (which none of them ever did) it would have been really cheap to replace. :thumbup: I ran into that car a couple of years ago still on the road with 280,000 miles on the original alternator and air compressor. THAT's reliabililty.

And I disagree that Lexus owners are less demanding. Most Lexus owners I know love luxury, and anything that gets in the way of that is considered detrimental. They have the same concerns we do - window doesn't go up, fix it. Rain-sensing wipers don't work, fix it. Radio fizzles, fix it. We BMW owners are more discerning when it comes to performance, but BMW's strong in that department. The powertrains are tanks. :thumbup: It's the little stuff that kills you.

All of that being said, these are fantastic cars to drive, and that's why most of us here drive them anyway. I would NOT own one without a warranty unless I was allocating about $50-$100 a month for maintenance. Not because I'd be worried about the engine, but because something stupid like the fuel-tank-door-lock-solenoid would break and it'd be a $60 part plus 30 minutes of labor to replace.

In the end, though, I can fix a broken relay on my BMW. I can't "upgrade" a Lexus chassis to a BMW. :thumbup:


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## jrp (Nov 11, 2004)

Rowag said:


> In the end, though, I can fix a broken relay on my BMW. I can't "upgrade" a Lexus chassis to a BMW. :thumbup:


So very true...everything else matters little.


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

What he said.........


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## Matthew330Ci (Sep 9, 2002)

misterlance said:


> Honestly you are comparing apples and oranges. My BMX bike was obviously more reliable then any of my cars  . Much like comparing a Camry to a bimmer. Announcement: The more complicated a vehicle, the more likely it will break, hence the 7 series. sheesh.


counterpoint: Lexus


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