# Autobahn Speeding Ticket - Paid at the Scene - I Got Mail



## Guards Red Car (Sep 8, 2007)

Three weeks ago the Polizei pulled me over (A8 between Munich and Stuttgart) doing 155km in 120km zone, I was given 8km "grace" then notified of my 100 Euro penalty for 27km over -- *I paid 100 Euro Cash at the scene*, given a pink slip, then drove away (after taking the obligatory photos) -- Now back home in USA, I just received a 4 page letter mailed to my home - looks like a speeding ticket containing all of the details in the pink slip given to me at the scene - and although I have not yet had the opportunity to have someone fluent in German read it for me, I ask -- Is it possible that this is merely a tidy typewritten receipt for my adventure -- or -- did the Polizei not give me credit for my 100 Euro paid at the scene and I am now subjected to "double jeopardy??!!"


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## dalekressin (Sep 3, 2008)

The answer is in the German written letter.


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## DonnaBlackson (May 14, 2006)

maybe its an official receipt... maybe you can scan it and someone can read it for you on here...


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## hayden (Jun 6, 2006)

You can also try scanning it with a OCR program and using Google translate to give you a rough translation.


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## GusIsBoosted (Jul 12, 2009)

i smell an international lawsuit.....


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## chicagofan00 (Feb 10, 2008)

Just type portions of it into a online translator like google or babelfish and you should be able to get the idea of what the letter is about.


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## Calif65GM (Mar 27, 2005)

I got a ticket and paid in US $ as didn't have anymore EURs on hand, didn't have enough, so got a bill for the balance when I got home.


My balance due was like 35 EUR.

The 4-page letter sounds about right. It should have all the pertinent date info and location, in case you think it's a duplicate or a camera ticket.

I think on 1 of the pages, it should have some EUR amounts due and a remittance instructions/international EFT bank routing numbers along with the precinct address.

I scanned it and e-mailed it to JS and he translated it for me.


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## TofuTurkey (Mar 15, 2009)

Guards Red Car said:


> ... -- *I paid 100 Euro Cash at the scene*, given a pink slip, then drove away (after taking the obligatory photos) -- ...


I'm guessing the pink slip given by the cop is some sort of receipt? At least you have something you can use to contest if the worst turns out to be true...


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

This is like a bad "Carnac" skit from Johnny Carson. Without seeing the letter, here is the translation:

_Pay us some more money. Send an international draft with large sums to ..._

Send me a PM, and I'll give you the address and payee information. :rofl:


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

I would write them a letter, saying you neither speak nor read German.

That's it.


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## hayden (Jun 6, 2006)

zoltrix said:


> I would write them a letter, saying you neither speak nor read German.
> 
> That's it.


They may respond in German saying they do not conduct official business in English.

It's his responsibility to get it translated.


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## Guards Red Car (Sep 8, 2007)

*Lost without translation*

I will get the letter properly translated as soon as possible - My dentist speaks German - The details contained within the letter are definitely for the infraction for which I was pulled over (I was able to note duplication of the details with respect to the milemarker, exact time, exact km/h data...) - The reason I asked this board about the letter (prior to getting the proper translation) is because I recall Hayden and some others also wrote about recent Autobahn speeding tickets - and, I was just trying to see if they may also have gotten some mail from Germany upon their return. Will keep you posted!


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## hayden (Jun 6, 2006)

Guards Red Car said:


> The reason I asked this board about the letter (prior to getting the proper translation) is because I recall Hayden and some others also wrote about recent Autobahn speeding tickets - and, I was just trying to see if they may also have gotten some mail from Germany upon their return. Will keep you posted!


While I was stopped twice, I was never ticketed. (even though I was speeding the first time)

Anxious to hear what the translation yields...


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

hayden said:


> They may respond in German saying they do not conduct official business in English.
> 
> It's his responsibility to get it translated.


No, it's not.

If you were detained in Germany, would you like your charges read to you in German, under the assumption that it's "your responsibility to get it translated??!"

This is no different (in fact, a moving violation citation in the US counts as an "arrest").

You have to understand the charges made against you, otherwise it's a kangaroo court.


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

Besides, there is no PROOF that you ever received the letter.

In the US, if you get one of those automated camera-generated letters in the mail, you can simply shred it. There is no proof of delivery, hence they drop the charges automatically. It's a suckers game, basically.


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## hayden (Jun 6, 2006)

zoltrix said:


> Besides, there is no PROOF that you ever received the letter.
> 
> In the US, if you get one of those automated camera-generated letters in the mail, you can simply shred it. There is no proof of delivery, hence they drop the charges automatically. It's a suckers game, basically.


What happens in the US is totally irrelevant. Good luck with the "I never received it" excuse the next time you present your passport when you enter Germany. While I doubt they'll deny your entry... It's likely the issue will take several hours to clear up. Is it really worth the time and headache? Keep in mind that the US State Department routinely denies visas to foreigners who have previous unpaid tickets.

And yes, if I was detained in Germany I suspect the charges would be read in German. It would be my responsibility to seek the assistance of the US embassy/consulate and/or hire a lawyer to translate.

You think your local courthouse has staff on hand who can translate the courts business into any language on the planet?

When you enter Germany you surrender yourself to their way of doing things. They will not adapt their system to you.


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## Alfred G (Apr 1, 2007)

Guards Red Car said:


> Three weeks ago the Polizei pulled me over (A8 between Munich and Stuttgart) doing 155km in 120km zone, I was given 8km "grace" then notified of my 100 Euro penalty for 27km over -- *I paid 100 Euro Cash at the scene*, given a pink slip, then drove away (after taking the obligatory photos) -- Now back home in USA, I just received a 4 page letter mailed to my home - looks like a speeding ticket containing all of the details in the pink slip given to me at the scene - and although I have not yet had the opportunity to have someone fluent in German read it for me, I ask -- Is it possible that this is merely a tidy typewritten receipt for my adventure -- or -- did the Polizei not give me credit for my 100 Euro paid at the scene and I am now subjected to "double jeopardy??!!"


That would surprise me very much.

Please scan+post the letter (or mail it to me). Mail-adress via PM.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I strongly suspect that I may be getting one of those letters in the mail. 

However, it would be interesting to add Italy to the long list of countries that have cited me for failing to follow their speed limit guidelines. :rofl:


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## Guards Red Car (Sep 8, 2007)

*It is a receipt!*

I had the letter interpreted - seems it merely an official receipt  (souvenir) of my adventure! Very efficient system!


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

:rofl:

Very efficient of them to provide that service to you!


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

hayden said:


> And yes, if I was detained in Germany I suspect the charges would be read in German. It would be my responsibility to seek the assistance of the US embassy/consulate and/or hire a lawyer to translate.


Well, I can't speak for Germany (I'm guessing neither can you) but if you were detained in the United States, a court-appointed interpreter would be provided FOR YOU, at no cost. For more popular languages, she'd be physically present, for more obscure ones, over the phone.

Same for a hospital in the US. If you end up in an ER State-side, an interpreter would be provided for you.

But this is in ass-backwards United States. Who knows how they do it in more progressive countries.

of course if I had to *guess*, I'd say Germany is no different from the US and indeed, a English-speaking interpreter would be present at a hearing. Whether court-appointed or consulate-appointed doesn't really matter. WHAT MATTERS is that the charges against you would be made in a language you understand.

*What this means* is sending people a letter in a language they don't understand, accusing them of a crime allegedly committed long ago, with no clear recourse to contest the charges is a farce.


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## chaz58 (Sep 11, 2007)

This is a joke, right? You can't be serious.

Naturally, they will try to accommodate you in person (even if it is just supplying you with a lawyer that speaks your language).

The foreign government has no obligation to translate their documents into a language of your choice (there are plenty of businesses who make good money doing this). It is you who are the visitor.



zoltrix said:


> No, it's not.
> 
> If you were detained in Germany, would you like your charges read to you in German, under the assumption that it's "your responsibility to get it translated??!"
> 
> ...


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## markinva (Jan 8, 2009)

chaz58 said:


> This is a joke, right? You can't be serious.
> 
> Naturally, they will try to accommodate you in person (even if it is just supplying you with a lawyer that speaks your language).
> 
> The foreign government has no obligation to translate their documents into a language of your choice (there are plenty of businesses who make good money doing this). It is you who are the visitor.


+1... in fact if you reverse the situation... can you imagine a local cop in the USA mailing a citation letter to a German tourist back at his house in Germany, then receiving a letter in German saying "I dont' speak English" Getting that translated, and then taking the time to translate a second citation letter into German to mail to the German tourist? :rofl:

lol


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## Guards Red Car (Sep 8, 2007)

*If you speed again....*

My translator told me the letter contains one additional message*...."There is a warning: should you get caught again while speeding, your license will be revoked!"*


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## hayden (Jun 6, 2006)

Guards Red Car said:


> My translator told me the letter contains one additional message*...."There is a warning: should you get caught again while speeding, your license will be revoked!"*


Well there's a whole new twist... What good would it do to revoke a US license? You could just replace it once home.

I assume that's probably just a standard warning statement.


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## MSY-MSP (Aug 14, 2009)

hayden said:


> Well there's a whole new twist... What good would it do to revoke a US license? You could just replace it once home.
> 
> I assume that's probably just a standard warning statement.


Actually, I think there might be meat to that statement. Don't quote me on this (but i am sure some will). Germany is one of the few countries that has an agreement with a number of the US states that will allow the conversion of a US license (from certain states) to a full German license without a test. The same works vice-versa. I assume that in order for this to work there would be at least some sharing of information about the licenses. Therefore, i would think that a German revocation of your US License might get sent to the state and therefore you would end up with a revoked US license. I don't know if tickets would get you points back in your home state, but I wouldn't count on it either way.

Then again it could be exactly that a warning.


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## hayden (Jun 6, 2006)

I know many countries offer a license based on your existing license elsewhere... but in my experience (done it twice) they simply take a look at the original document and don't do any kind of "verification" (electronic or otherwise).

Germany may be different however.


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## Ian_L (Aug 13, 2009)

All they will do is take away your international driving permit as they don't have the means to suspend your United States licence only uncle Sam can do this not uncle Hans :thumbup:

This means you either get the passanger to drive or you ring someone to collect your car at the roadside as in their eyes you are no longer able to drive the car as you have no licence and insurance cover ( In Europe it is an offence not to tell your insurance company little things like this).

On the law side your under German law the moment you land if you need an English translation of written documents then one will be provided there and then, as it was just a receipt and a lots of love note and you had left the country one was not provided, In court they suspend any action till YOUR embassy can appoint a translator, as you don't pay German taxes why should they get you help and pay for it (this applies across all the E.U member states).

On the linking of driver licenceing this happen's in Europe already, if i get caught (well did) then any fine or points added anywhere in Europe are automatically put on my UK licence by the DVLA (DMV).


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## mookjohnson (Aug 5, 2005)

Ian_L said:


> All they will do is take away your international driving permit as they don't have the means to suspend your United States licence only uncle Sam can do this not uncle Hans :thumbup:
> 
> This means you either get the passanger to drive or you ring someone to collect your car at the roadside as in their eyes you are no longer able to drive the car as you have no licence and insurance cover ( In Europe it is an offence not to tell your insurance company little things like this).
> 
> ...


This is true. In fact, in the states, one state cannot suspend a driver's license form another state, only the privledge to drive within the suspending state.

To Zoltrix. Although mostly correct about being provided an interpreter free of charge, your "mail" analysis is off base.

You can't hide behind the "you have no proof I received it so I don't have to abide" theory. That is not how our laws work. For example, in NY, after receiving a traffic infraction, a letter is sent to you saying that if the matter is not cleared up in x amount of time, your license will be suspended.

In a court of law, the prosecution will rely on that notice sent to prove the charge of "driving with a suspended license." The law assumes a sent letter is received by the recipient, and if that's not the case, the burden shifts to the recipient to prove otherwise.

Can you just not pay your bills by claiming you never received them? Not how this country works, and I assume it's not how Germany works either.


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## MSY-MSP (Aug 14, 2009)

mookjohnson said:


> This is true. In fact, in the states, one state cannot suspend a driver's license form another state, only the privledge to drive within the suspending state.
> 
> To Zoltrix. Although mostly correct about being provided an interpreter free of charge, your "mail" analysis is off base.
> 
> ...


You are partially correct in you analysis. You are correct that one state cannot directly suspend/revoke the license from another state. They can only suspend the priviledge to drive in that state. However, through various compact agreements, the state that suspended the license in their state, may and can, send a notice to your home state indicating that they have taken the administrative action. This in turn could in turn result in your home state suspending your license, based on the other states action. The net result is that your license is suspended.

I have always wondered about statutes and rules that rely on the mailbox rule for proof of delivery. I have an issue with any rule that presumes that you recieved something without proof that the actual item was mailed and delivered to the person. For example, how does one prove the absense of something. I cannot figure out a way to prove that i didn't recieve something. Sure I could take the stand and state that I didn't recieve it, but how much weight would that carry. Zero. Thus, the burden is too high. This is why in situations like this proof of delivery is needed.

Now with bills, the situation is totally different. If one reads the agreements that you sign for a credit card or almost any other billing issue, there is a statement that says the bill is considered recieved when mailed, and that you are responsible for the bill even if not recieved. Thus getting around the issue of "i didn't get the bill".


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## Alfred G (Apr 1, 2007)

zoltrix said:


> Well, I can't speak for Germany (I'm guessing neither can you) but if you were detained in the United States, a court-appointed interpreter would be provided FOR YOU, at no cost.


Same in Germany.

Most interpreters in German court have to translate Serbo-Croatian, Turkish or Arab however...


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## Glenfiddich (Sep 30, 2009)

Guards Red Car said:


> My translator told me the letter contains one additional message*...."There is a warning: should you get caught again while speeding, your license will be revoked!"*


Your license just will be revoked, if you drive more than 26km to fast in the next 12 months. And than you're not allowed to drive in GERMANY for one month. So you don't have any problems in the USA.


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## chaz58 (Sep 11, 2007)

Yeah, they are a little more serious about driving infractions (i.e. revoking your license) than they are in the US. That is a big reason why you see such crazy driving in the US.



Glenfiddich said:


> Your license just will be revoked, if you drive more than 26km to fast in the next 12 months. And than you're not allowed to drive in GERMANY for one month. So you don't have any problems in the USA.


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Where did you see these things?


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Moin moin.

I'm afraid that I don't know those areas or their traffic.

You might also have seen drivers from new members of the EU. Some of them have quite interesting driving styles.


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## ViaPerturbatio (Jul 25, 2009)

Beenthere said:


> I'm surprised and disappointed to see more dimwitted driving in Germany than ever...
> 
> Yesterday a jackazz in a Chrysler mini-van running about 90 mph on the A-Bahn almost crashed into two cars while illegally talking on his hand-held cellphone. Today an Audi driver almost took out an Opel in a lane change without looking. Unless the only people on the roads in Germany are American drivers, things are deteriorating rapidly in recent years.


I experienced the same in Germany last month. I intentionally checked plates (when I could) and all but one of the drivers in the bad driving scenes I encountered had German EU plates. While still better than in the States, driving in Germany is not what it used to be.


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## enigma (Jan 4, 2006)

Ian_L said:


> All they will do is take away your international driving permit as they don't have the means to suspend your United States licence only uncle Sam can do this not uncle Hans :thumbup:


Actually, I don't think even Uncle Sam can revoke your license. It's issued by each state's DMV, not the federal government.


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## Pleasanton335 (Jun 19, 2008)

*You are joking, right???*



zoltrix said:


> Besides, there is no PROOF that you ever received the letter.
> 
> In the US, if you get one of those automated camera-generated letters in the mail, you can simply shred it. There is no proof of delivery, hence they drop the charges automatically. It's a suckers game, basically.


Do you really think that just shredding the letter will make it go away? Just wait until the DMV suspends your license...maybe that will motivate you to talk to the proper authorities about the ticket. You will eventually have to deal with the ticket...either through the courts or with DMV.


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## voltigeur (Jun 29, 2008)

hayden said:


> What happens in the US is totally irrelevant. Good luck with the "I never received it" excuse the next time you present your passport when you enter Germany. While I doubt they'll deny your entry... It's likely the issue will take several hours to clear up. Is it really worth the time and headache? Keep in mind that the US State Department routinely denies visas to foreigners who have previous unpaid tickets.
> 
> And yes, if I was detained in Germany I suspect the charges would be read in German. It would be my responsibility to seek the assistance of the US embassy/consulate and/or hire a lawyer to translate.
> 
> When you enter Germany you surrender yourself to their way of doing things. They will not adapt their system to you.


Exactly! Get it translated - btw, online translators don't tend to go a great job on tehcnical/jargon translations - and make sure you're good.

Scan it and post here (less your personal data).


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## voltigeur (Jun 29, 2008)

ViaPerturbatio said:


> While still better than in the States, driving in Germany is not what it used to be.


Noticed the same since I lived there: more tailgating (highly illegal on the A-bahn!); but I still don't see passing on the right, as lane discipline (moving over) is still better than the US.


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## Guards Red Car (Sep 8, 2007)

voltigeur said:


> Exactly! Get it translated - btw, online translators don't tend to go a great job on tehcnical/jargon translations - and make sure you're good.
> 
> Scan it and post here (less your personal data).


Had two German fluent friends translate letter - It is merely a receipt!


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## mookjohnson (Aug 5, 2005)

MSY-MSP said:


> You are partially correct in you analysis. You are correct that one state cannot directly suspend/revoke the license from another state. They can only suspend the priviledge to drive in that state. However, through various compact agreements, the state that suspended the license in their state, may and can, send a notice to your home state indicating that they have taken the administrative action. This in turn could in turn result in your home state suspending your license, based on the other states action. The net result is that your license is suspended.


That may be, but I only stated that the home state is the only one that can suspend/revoke your license. The other state is merely recomending your home state take action.



> I have always wondered about statutes and rules that rely on the mailbox rule for proof of delivery. I have an issue with any rule that presumes that you recieved something without proof that the actual item was mailed and delivered to the person. For example, how does one prove the absense of something. I cannot figure out a way to prove that i didn't recieve something. Sure I could take the stand and state that I didn't recieve it, but how much weight would that carry. Zero. Thus, the burden is too high. This is why in situations like this proof of delivery is needed.


The statute states that: "while knowing or having reason to know that such person's license ... is suspended."
Based on the fact that the ticket you receive states clearly that failure to answer the summons in ____ days will result in the license being suspended, coupled with the fact a certified letter was sent to the offender's current address, is presumptive evidence that the offender either had knowledge, or had reason to know the license was suspended.

The reliance isn't on the mailing alone. It's on the fact that the warning of suspensiion is on the actual ticket received, as well as the follow-up letters. So a defendant would have to claim both that he never received the actual summons (hard to show, since if speeding, you were HANDED the summons), and then never received any follow-up letters. This would make for a highly implausible defense.



> Now with bills, the situation is totally different. If one reads the agreements that you sign for a credit card or almost any other billing issue, there is a statement that says the bill is considered recieved when mailed, and that you are responsible for the bill even if not recieved. Thus getting around the issue of "i didn't get the bill".


Just like the private agreement you mentioned, the law has a similar one - ignorance of the law is not a defense. Therefore, the mailbox rule applies, as does your knowledge of it, as well as your knowledge of the fact that your license is suspended if you do not answer summonses.


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## EAMcClintock (Sep 4, 2009)

Actually, Zoltrix is right, at least for here. In the U.S., people who do not speak English are provided with interpreters in their native language and if documents are readily available in a foreign language, they are provided, such as for Spanish speakers/readers (the most common alternate language here in Colorado), and other documents are translated for defendants at court expense. I say this from experience as a former prosecutor and as a current criminal defense attorney. The problem is, Germany does not have our system of justice and I personally do not know what rights would be afforded there. I am also interested in this discussion because my husband got a speeding ticket on the way back into Munich and I simply told them we did not have any Euros on us to pay the 100 right there. They were very nice and said they would mail us a bill. I suspect I will just go ahead and pay the bill because frankly 100 Euros is not worth the headache, even for a criminal defense attorney. And frankly he was speeding and loving it.


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## Calif65GM (Mar 27, 2005)

EAMcClintock said:


> I am also interested in this discussion because my husband got a speeding ticket on the way back into Munich and I simply told them we did not have any Euros on us to pay the 100 right there. They were very nice and said they would mail us a bill.


I told them the same thing that I only had dollars left and they took US $s too at a not terrible x-change rate :thumbup: in fact.

Also I believe another member (possibly JSpira) actually had the incident where the police were more than willing to follow the member to a local ATM to get money to pay the fine. It's discussed in one of the "I got a ticket on A-bahn" threads.


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