# BMW and ties to Nazi Germany



## abelhands (Mar 4, 2009)

A friend of mine the other day sent me this article (below is the link).

it seems like the major shareholder in bmw, still to this day had ties to nazi germany. his father and his grandfather were nazi's, his grandfather is the one that started bmw. they used many jews as slave labor, many people died, and i guess they still to this day have not paid the families the money in retribution. i think if i were to redo my decision, which i cannot do now, i would buy a lexus, infiniti or acura instead of the bmw. i love bmw's, i love the way they drive and the look of them, but it just seems wrong now after learning all this. i just think it's a moral thing, and i don't feel all that comfortable with it really anymore, after this article.

here is the article if you are interested in reading it. what are your thoughts?

here is the article:

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/oct2007/gb20071010_765240.htm


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## Bimmerista (Sep 21, 2005)

I hear you and its not an easy decision.

Toyota has also used slave labour and fully participated in the Japanese war effort - and the Toyodas have never appologized or payed war reparations to anyone (and neither has Toyota). So I'm not sure that I feel any better about any of the Japanese companies.

Or for that matter about Henry Ford, a know anti-semite until well after the war.

BMW was not started by the Quand familly (the controlling shareholders).

During WWII, the grandfather, Herbert, was married to a woman who later divorced him and married Goebels. The Quands back then were war profiteers who used slave labour to make munitions and other industrial production. The Quands were indeed close to the Nazi regime.

After the war, BMW had serious financial problems and was faced with the option of being acquired by Mercedes or going bankrupt. In 1954 the Quand familly bought into BMW and acquired control and re-launched the company (which before WWII was a public joint stock company). Therefore the Quands were associated with BMW after WWII.

Like all major German companies, BMW as a corporate entity paid war reparations and came clean on its history during the war.

The Quands less so, until recently, when one of their own blew the lid on the past out of shame. To my knowledge none of the Quand children who currently control the company have any Nazi ties or sympathies.

I knew this coming in.

Unless we start boycotting everything German, at one point we have to satisfy ourselves that amends have been made and carry on, but this is just my view, I have firends who refuse to buy German cars and that is their own decision.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

Tough call on who was worse, the Nazis or Imperial Japan. I do vote for the Nazis as being worse, because of the millions of people killed in the concentration camps. However, they did treat American prisoners of war much better than the Japanese did. Don't forget, on the Japanese side, the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, the millions of Chinese killed and turned into slave labor, the forced rape and prostitution of large numbers of women. The horrible state of our POWs is another real problem too.


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## loveless4577 (Feb 29, 2008)

OP I understand your quandry. There are many products (Reebok, Timberland, Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, etc) that historically had ties to slavery or present day have expressed disdain for the use of their products by minorities (Blacks in particular). This always causes a moral dilemma in my eyes. Some products such as clothes I can discontinue buying a car, if you are still making payments can be a lot more difficult to get from under.

In the end you have to do what will allow you to sleep at night. Good luck.


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## Jakked (Feb 6, 2009)

Just to toss in the mix: add Mitsubishi. Built Japan's Zero fighters.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

I've known about the Quandt family's past as well as what BMW was doing during WWII. It isn't exactly a secret.

But that was 50 years ago.

Here is a quote from the Annual theme for the BMW Stiftung (foundation) Herbert Quandt: ( http://www.bmw-stiftung.de/index.php?action=show_pages&siteID=8 )



> *Social Diversity ***8211; Boundaries and Points of Contact Between Social Groups*
> The intercultural skills of sophisticated "cosmopolitan knowledge workers" often only go so far when it comes to the social integration of migrant workers. Due to modernization and urbanization, more and more people live in a complex social environment. Increasing migration not only entails changes in the age and social structure, but also in the ethnic and religious composition of society.
> 
> How does social cohesion manifest itself in urban spaces? How do members of different economic classes, ethnic and racial groups and milieus interact with one another? Where do they come into contact with one another?
> ...


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## RambleJ (Oct 20, 2008)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> I've known about the Quandt family's past as well as what BMW was doing during WWII. It isn't exactly a secret.
> 
> But that was 50 years ago.


Exactly! thank you very much! 
You guys going to stop wearing cotton clothing as well? Don't think I really need to explain that one.


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## Grentz (May 16, 2009)

War time from years ago is hard to judge by. These are large companies with no moral grounds except for those by their leaders/controllers, which change frequently over the years. If we tried to trace every company back, you would be buying from pretty much no one as in the past they all pitched in to help the war effort for their side.

Times change quickly as well, 60yrs is not that long ago, but then in reality it is with how fast our world changes. It is better to look in a more recent view to determine how good or bad a company is IMO.


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## BMWFM1 (Jan 22, 2008)

Nothing really new... 

FM


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

+1 
Nothing new.

My thoughts are that it was 50 years ago...

FWIW, our very own Ford happily supplied vehicles to both sides.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

There are some very thoughtful responses above to what can be a disturbing question for many people. The only thing I would add is this. The _companies_ as business entities are guiltless. Where the guilt lies is with those who made policy, which includes those who may have gone above and beyond merely using slave labor. Those who cruelly exploited their workers, working them to the point of disease, starvation or death, bear universal and perpetual guilt.
However, just as we tried and hung the policy makers in the Nazi government at Nuremburg, and overlooked those who truly were "following orders", we can come to some resolution of our own feelings about what happened. I know many Jewish owners of various German cars, including of course BMWs, who have managed to reconcile history with modern realities.
My own father who was a gunner's mate on a destroyer in the Pacific during the second world war has no hostility towards the Japanese. His fleet was attacked numerous times, and quite viciously by Kamikaze pilots towards the end. His ship won the Presidential Unit Citation for valor for shooting down 6 Kamikazes that were targeting his destroyer. My father recalls two thoughts he had during the thick of the fighting. The first was that if only he could live one more week until his birthday he "knew" he would be OK. The second was thinking "poor bastards" about the pilots murderously boring in on his destroyer. If he can today still bear no animosity towards those who were intent on killing him, then I will do the same.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

mullman said:


> +1
> Nothing new.
> 
> *My thoughts are that it was 50 years ago...*
> ...


I'm afraid that that is not a satisfactory answer. The Armenian genocide was even longer ago. Do we forgive and forget everyone and everything? At which point- how many years? How about the Darfur genocide. In a year do we say that was long ago and far away?

I think you meant to say it like with a shrug, and if so I can understand it a little.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

mullman said:


> +1
> Nothing new.
> 
> My thoughts are that it was 50 years ago...
> ...


Technically true, but you should add that was only true up until Pearl Harbor and Germany declaring war on the US. After that, Germany nationalized all Ford interests in Germany and we nationalized all German interests in the US.


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

DSXMachina said:


> I'm afraid that that is not a satisfactory answer.


I'm afraid it was not your question.

Regardless, you just said in an earlier post that:

*the companies as business entities are guiltless. Where the guilt lies is with those who made policy*

I agree, and that was my point.
No reason to 'punish' _companies_ which really would only lead to higher prices for consumers 50+ years later...


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

mullman said:


> I'm afraid it was not your question.
> 
> Regardless, you just said in an earlier post that:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. The subject is certainly bigger than we will ever set to rest on a Forum.


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## BadgelessM3 (Dec 24, 2008)

Jakked said:


> Just to toss in the mix: add Mitsubishi. Built Japan's Zero fighters.


God thank you for saying it. Honestly might as well throw All American car companies as well. Most If not all were slave owners. This post is stupid:rofl:


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## BadgelessM3 (Dec 24, 2008)

Can you say MERCEDES


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

^^^

I cannot see the logic of punishing these companies now, a company is an entity that will only pass the price onto the consumers.
The people behind the war-time policies are long gone.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

don't forget the dassler brothers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puma_AG



> *Company split*
> 
> Both brothers joined the Nazi Party, but Rudolf was slightly closer to the party. During the war, a growing rift between the pair reached a breaking point after an Allied bomb attack in 1943 when Adi and his wife climbed into a bomb shelter that Rudolf and his family were already in: "The dirty bastards are back again", Adi said, apparently referring to the Allied war planes, but Rudolf was convinced his brother meant him and his family[4]. After Rudolf was later picked up by American soldiers and accused of being a member of the Waffen SS, he was convinced that his brother had turned him in.[2]
> In 1948, the brothers split their business, when Rudi left the high hill for the other side of the Aurach river: Adolf called his firm *Adidas* after his nick name Adi and the first three letters of his last name *Adi* *Das*sler; Rudolf called his new firm *Ruda* - from *Ru*dolf *Da*ssler.


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

Y, Adidas & Puma - brothers...


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

BadgelessM3 said:


> God thank you for saying it. Honestly might as well throw All American car companies as well. Most If not all were slave owners. This post is stupid:rofl:


What? Huh? "...All American car companies...were slave owners"? Surely I've misunderstood you?


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## boothguy (Feb 1, 2007)

So the guy bought into the company in the 1950s. And he has a past that bears examining. But BMW's role during the war years doesn't seem to be at issue here, which to me is a much more significant issue. Meaning if BMW or its management at the time had used slave laborers and refused to own up to it, then there's an issue for me. The excerpt below is from the article linked above, regarding BMW's position on the war years.

Many German companies including BMW, Volkswagen (VOWG.DE), and Deutsche Bank (DB) already have explored their own wartime collaboration and misdeeds during the Nazi era, publishing books, turning over documentation to experts, and paying millions of dollars into funds distributed to forced-labor survivors. Volkswagen's book documents its deployment of 20,000 slave laborers during the Third Reich. In 1999, BMW and other German companies founded the "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future" foundation, which provides compensation to former forced laborers.


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

Two life stories.

My father's business partner in the late 60s-early 80s was a German born Jew.
He married into another wealthy Jewish family in the mid 30s in Bavaria.

Come 1938 they felt like they should leave, they saw a black cloud forming over their people and decided to get out.
He mentioned the money lending and raising of rates post WW1.
He told me a Jew, under their law, can charge interest to a gentile, but not charge interest to a Jew.
I am not sure about this since I am not Jewish. Anyone?

They left their grand estate and were only allowed to take a very miniscule amount of currency out of Germany at the time.
He told me they basically ate and drank that money on the boat to America and landed in NYC with little more than the clothes on their backs.

They dug in, worked hard and made a name for themselves in textiles.
He did very well. He LOVED America and was an 'American success story'.
Proverbial prince to pauper to prince.

Through the 70s and 80s I met with him several times over lunch.
One question I had for him, as a teen, was how could he always drive a Mercedes after what happened to him and the Jews under the Nazis.
He said he believed Mercedes made the finest cars in the world and he would always buy them.
(In context, I will not hold that against him on a BMW forum ;^)

I asked him about relatives lost in the holocaust and he said that he and his wife lost many family members in the camps.

He told me that 'History is written by the victors' and believed his relatives died of typhus or lack of food in the camps.
He continually blamed the Allies for blocking the rail lines to get food to the camps.

I first heard of the USA camps from him, it was not in my textbooks.
We held many Japanese in camps, yet we could feed them since we did not fight a war on our land.

He always had the biggest and best Mercedes sold in the states until his death in April of 2009.
It was a pleasure to know him. I went to his funeral.




I ushered at a Presbyterian church with an old gentleman in the late 90s.
He was very quiet, his wife died in the early 80s.
We (wife and I) befriended him.
After several months and a few lunches he opens up.
He was a German Luftwaffe pilot during the war.
Many Allies kills.

Can I not be friends with this gentleman?
Was he not just following orders?

He claimed he was not a Nazi party member, but I cannot say for sure.

How many innocent people have been killed by the US wars around the globe in the last 30 years.
Do soldiers not just follow orders?

He died in January and I went to his funeral.



I have read the complete Churchill memoirs as well as Patton's reflections.
Our finest Allied men, right?
Yet neither, in their works, wished to prosecute war crimes.

Read them and tell me what you think.
Patton's is short (a weekend).
Churchill's is volumes (took me 6 months)...


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## BadgelessM3 (Dec 24, 2008)

DSXMachina said:


> What? Huh? "...All American car companies...were slave owners"? Surely I've misunderstood you?


Did you read were I said Most?

Main Entry: most 
Function: adverb 
Etymology: by shortening 
Date: circa 1584 
: almost <we'll be crossing the river most any time now - Hamilton Basso> 
usage Although considered by some to be unacceptable in all cases, most is often used to mean "almost" in both spoken and, to a lesser extent, written English to modify the adjectives all, every, and any; the pronouns all, everyone, everything, everybody, anyone, anything, and anybody; and the adverbs everywhere, anywhere, and always. Other uses of this sense of most are dialectal.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

WW2 is over.

My father fought against the Japanese, mostly in New Guinea, from late 1942 through the end of the war, at which point he was on readiness for the invasion of Japan. He hated the Japanese. He never bought a Japanese car (or a German one, either). When I bought my own first car, it was Japanese, and he wasn't too happy about it, but, at that time (1973), the war was well over, and we had made peace with Japan. Peace is peace.

The biggest mistake of WW1 was in not making real peace between the combatants. There was real peace between the combatants after WW2 (thank you Truman and Marshall), and that peace has both held, and transformed the world.

You don't want to buy a BMW because they powered the FW 190? fine, don't. Just know that the fighter pilots who flew against each other did often meet up after the war and share stories. They sometimes met the same people at the cocktail hour that they met in the skies, and were able to discuss things in a friendly way. (Adolph Galland overheard a P-38 pilot tell of an encounter with an ME 109, where he thought for sure he had angles on the 109, but the 109 managed to escape. The P-38 driver explained the fight in detail, and ended up saying that the 109 pilot was the best he ever faced. Adloph Galland went up to him and said 'You SOB, you damn near killed me that day' and they went on to discuss the manuvers and tactics that they each employed in the fight. If they can get past it, we can too.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

BadgelessM3 said:


> Did you read were I said Most?
> 
> Main Entry: most
> Function: adverb
> ...


I assure you your etymological sarcasm was entirely unneccessary. If it makes you feel better for me to rephrase my question I will be happy to do that. Please read it in the utterly astounded tone in which it was written.
What? Huh? Which American automobile companies were slave owners?


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## E36Shikara (Apr 16, 2007)

abelhands said:


> A friend of mine the other day sent me this article (below is the link).
> 
> it seems like the major shareholder in bmw, still to this day had ties to nazi germany. his father and his grandfather were nazi's, his grandfather is the one that started bmw. they used many jews as slave labor, many people died, and i guess they still to this day have not paid the families the money in retribution. i think if i were to redo my decision, which i cannot do now, i would buy a lexus, infiniti or acura instead of the bmw. i love bmw's, i love the way they drive and the look of them, but it just seems wrong now after learning all this. i just think it's a moral thing, and i don't feel all that comfortable with it really anymore, after this article.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm... if you feel so bad about it - why not sell the car.. and go buy something that soothes your soul/morality.

btw the plural of BMW is BMWs...

This post is UNREAL...


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Kamdog said:


> WW2 is over.
> 
> My father fought against the Japanese, mostly in New Guinea, from late 1942 through the end of the war, at which point he was on readiness for the invasion of Japan. He hated the Japanese. He never bought a Japanese car (or a German one, either). When I bought my own first car, it was Japanese, and he wasn't too happy about it, but, at that time (1973), the war was well over, and we had made peace with Japan. Peace is peace.
> 
> ...


Hey Kam, the difference is that these were brave and honorable men fighting for their countries. They did not create the policies which directly led to systematic slaughter. The OP has difficulty with the direct connection of our marque with the war effort, and the significant use of slave labor in that effort. I don't agree with it affecting MY decision to buy BMW, but I can understand his considered pause in that regard.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

In post 24 mullman wrote this excerpt. "I asked him about relatives lost in the holocaust and he said that he and his wife lost many family members in the camps. 
He told me that 'History is written by the victors' and believed his relatives died of typhus or lack of food in the camps.
*He continually blamed the Allies for blocking the rail lines to get food to the camps*."

I regret having to disagree with someone who was there, and faced what he did, but I take exception with that statement. I am no scholar of WWII, but I have read histories, chronicles, diaries, biographies, and autobiographies, including the multi-volume 'Churchill' by his son Randolph. I have read very extensively of the Holocaust and have visited camps in Poland and Germany, and have spent days at the Holocaust Museums in Europe and Washington, DC. I have read from Mein Kampf to accounts of the Nuremburg Trials. I feel I am at least qualified to make my point.
You are right in stating the old axiom that history is written by the victors. However,that does not make it incorrect in all which it records. Your friend was wrong in blaming the allies for the suffering of his family. Did not the same railways which were transporting food also transport millions to their eventual deaths in the camps? What would your friend have said if we had NOT bombed the railroads, which also carried soldiers and munitions? I find it difficult to understand how your friend could make his comments unless the context has been lost and his much broader condemnation of the bastards who would murder his friends and family has been omitted.
Regardless, my apologies to the memory of your friend, may he rest in peace.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

I will second what DSX said. I too am a bit of a student about the war, and, it seemed to me, that the man got it wrong. I had the impression that he was convincing himself of something, rather than relying on anything factual. It seemed to me that he was most comfortable having a blind spot regarding the death camps, and who was to blame for them. Many German Jews went to the camps not accepting the current situation. They still saw themselves as Germans who happened to be Jewish (much like most American Jews do), while the Nazis thought of them as subhuman.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

E36Shikara said:


> Hmmmm... if you feel so bad about it - why not sell the car.. and go buy something that soothes your soul/morality.
> 
> btw the plural of BMW is BMWs...
> 
> This post is UNREAL...


I am surprised that you flip the OP off so casually. Political leaders, philosophers, heads of government, religious leaders, educators and the enlightened everywhere have considered similar questions. What exactly offends you, or at least makes you call his post "UNREAL"?
(Yes, the generally accepted plural of BMW is BMWs. But BMW's is not always possessive and has been used by many editors as a plural form. Usually an apostrophe is called for if the last letter of the pluralized noun is a vowel, to make it clearer to the reader the intention of the writer. Sometimes for the sake of continuity this practice is continued in the work when a noun ends with a consonant.
I found it odd that you should want to impress the OP with such a trivial matter in light of the overall discussion.)


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Kamdog said:


> I will second what DSX said. I too am a bit of a student about the war, and, it seemed to me, that the man got it wrong. I had the impression that he was convincing himself of something, rather than relying on anything factual. It seemed to me that he was most comfortable having a blind spot regarding the death camps, and who was to blame for them. Many German Jews went to the camps not accepting the current situation. *They still saw themselves as Germans who happened to be Jewish *(much like most American Jews do), while the Nazis thought of them as subhuman.


A very poignant story I read concerned a Jew who had been a hero in the Great War, and had even received a medal directly from the Kaiser himself. As he was marched off to his death he proudly wore his medal and his last words were to the effect of "...but...but...I _fought_ for Germany!"


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## RG1 (Oct 1, 2006)

It's odd that so many casually dismiss BMW's ties to Nazi Germany. Sixty years is not that long ago in the grand scheme of things. I think the real question is what are BMW and other car companies doing now to make up for their past?


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## Spokane540ia (Jul 4, 2008)

This is one the most sensitive posts I've ever seen. Kudos for all you guys for keeping this serious. 

Many points have been made. Most of them have value IMHO. 

Corporations are not, of themselves, to blame. As was said before, it is the humans that run the corporations that should be held liable. 

During MY lifetime, BMW has not employed slave labor, etc. The BMW Corporation has only tried to make better cars, and make money. And BMW has done that. 

Who built the atom bomb? Americans. Who unleashed it? Americans. 

So are we all now currently at fault for the Indian Wars in the US in the 1800's? 

Not to make light pf the OP's dilemma. 

Good luck figuring this out for yourself, my OP friend.

As you all know, there are people from all over the world who read this stuff. Most of them own BMW's.


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## loveless4577 (Feb 29, 2008)

After some thought I came to the realization that a company supporting the country in which they reside is only natural. 

They might even be considered patriots in some circles.


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## Spokane540ia (Jul 4, 2008)

+1


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## MikeLogan (Feb 27, 2009)

Sure the Jews built Bimmer's back in the 40's...as did Blacks, Slavs, Romanians, Freemasons, Gays, Jehovah's, Activists, anyone that didn't agree with the Nazi Regime...they also built VW's and Mercedes.

As a Jew, I'm not offended, or have a grudge against the company. It wasn't the car companies that made these people assemble their cars...it was Nazi Germany telling BMW who would be doing the assembly...


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## Stevej2001 (Jan 26, 2008)

*Buying a German Car was a Tough Decision for Me*

Growing up Jewish in America, one of my good friends' father was a survivor of the camps. I used to steal glances at the number tattooed on his arm when he wore short sleeves. I could never have bought anything German back then although I took German in high school. Go figure.

I remember agonizing over whether to buy a piece of German diagnostic equipment, an otoscope, while a medical student.

But somehow over the years the feelings about this have been blunted. Not so much that I didn't think about it when I bought my 535i, and have my wife comment on it. I think I'm still just a little uncomfortable with my decision from a moral perspective (but not from an automotive perspective!)

It's true the Japanese treatment of Allied prisoners was far worse than the Germans (and Japanese behavior in China was beastly), but the Japanese didn't systematically attempt to kill entire cultures. Our treatment of our Japanese citizens was truly shameful, but in no way comparable to how the Nazis operated with regard to Jews, Gypsies, and others.

My bottom line is this: I'm a late middle aged guy and I'm not going to last for ever. My wife and I have done well. I'm finished with boring cars. I'll just live with the fact that my BMW is German.

Germany has been a steadfast supporter of the Jews since WWII, and I think it's time not to forget, or even quite forgive, but certainly to move on.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

Just a couple of other points, if I may.

First time I was in Germany, probably 5 years or so ago, I sure felt odd. I can't say that I was real comfortable in Germany at any time, the holocaust still hangs on my mind. But, my logical self tells me that it is over, that almost all of the people who were around and could possibly have had anything to do with it are dead, and, as a nation and a people (Germany once again has something of a Jewish population), Germany's past is past.

On a separate note, I am doing some research to decide whether to spend a couple weeks in Arizona. My wife has a pal in Vegas, and we want to see the Grand Canyon again, and I was reading a book on sights. One of the sights suggests a particular Burger King someplace in Navajo country. Why? That Burger King has an exhibit about the Code Talkers. I figure that if, in 1943 or so, the Navajo can forgive the American White Man enough to go war with him, after what was done to the Navajo, well, I can put Germany's past behind me too.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Kamdog said:


> Just a couple of other points, if I may.
> 
> First time I was in Germany, probably 5 years or so ago, I sure felt odd. I can't say that I was real comfortable in Germany at any time, the holocaust still hangs on my mind. But, my logical self tells me that it is over, that almost all of the people who were around and could possibly have had anything to do with it are dead, and, as a nation and a people (Germany once again has something of a Jewish population), Germany's past is past.
> 
> On a separate note, I am doing some research to decide whether to spend a couple weeks in Arizona. My wife has a pal in Vegas, and we want to see the Grand Canyon again, and I was reading a book on sights. One of the sights suggests a particular Burger King someplace in Navajo country. Why? That Burger King has an exhibit about the Code Talkers. I figure that if, in 1943 or so, the *Navajo can forgive the American White Man enough to go war with him, after what was done to the Navajo,* well, I can put Germany's past behind me too.


The Navajo, maybe, I'm not so sure about the Sioux or the Apache.


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## RambleJ (Oct 20, 2008)

My grandparents were living in Germany when the Nazi party started taking over. During that time German or not if you did not support the Nazi's, you were basically killed. Which did happen to a couple of my family members. With that said they had to flee Germany and sought shelter in Indonesia. 
With that being said , I would say that BMW/Mercedes and others at that time really had little if any choice of their own.


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## DXK (Jun 1, 2007)

RambleJ said:


> I would say that BMW/Mercedes and others at that time really had little if any choice of their own.


Not exactly true; they were made to employ slave labor, but they were not made not too feed them and not to treat them better. See Oscar Schindler enterprises for an example of human treatment of slave labor


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

DXK said:


> Not exactly true; they were made to employ slave labor, but they were not made not too feed them and not to treat them better. See Oscar Schindler enterprises for an example of human treatment of slave labor


Give us a break and get off your soap box.
cheers
vern


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Random comments:

The Business Week article was very poorly written - more a diatribe than a piece of journalism. I found it curious coming from a major publication. 
The article indicted the Quandt family forebears, not the company. Should we all boycott Budweiser if we learn the current owners' grandfathers were Nazi sympathizers? While I understand the OP's sentiments, I have difficulty with that logic.
Mullman, I find your friend's protests about deaths in the camps being caused by Allied bombing of the railways disturbing - almost as if the claim was made by Ajmedinejahd (sp?). Sure sounds like he was in denial, and trying hard to rationalize his "German-ness" and love of German machinery.
Apropos of nothing, I watched a documentary on the Bismark last week and was surprised to hear that her Captain was Jewish. The program claimed there was a sizable portion of the Kriegsmarine officer corps that was also Jewish. Don't ask, don't tell 50 years early?
Should we refuse to buy Jeeps because they will soon be owned by Italians, whose great-great-great-great grandfathers fed early Christians to lions?
Should the whole world refuse to buy anything from us, because or great-great grandfathers slaughtered Native Americans, and our great-grandfathers owned slaves?

Where does the whole concept of paying for the "sins of our fathers" end?


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

quackbury said:


> I realize this is your first post, but it really adds nothing to the discussion as this duplicates the OP post. BTW the "expose" in question occurred in October of 2007. Everyone who cites it is presupposing it is unbiased, objective reporting.
> 
> Ever seen "Roger and Me?" The German film film may be factual, or it may be exaggerated. All I know is there doesn't seem to be much global furor / backlash against the Quandts 20 months later.
> 
> ...


Hi quackbury. I went back and read the OP. He had recently learned of information which troubled him. He mentioned specific events which gave him pause. In a very introspective manner he considered what it should all mean today. To him, it just didn't sit right that things had been the way they were and he wondered what influence history should exert on his decision today.
There was not a single line of "bashing" in his post. He closed decently by asking us our opinion. Almost all subsequent posts have been thoughtful and incisive. They may have helped the OP to resolve his conflict.
Let me close by saying this. If you don't know why people today are still trying to figure our how the hell what happened could have happened, then you are among those who are doomed to repeat history. This lack of connection with history seems to be a uniquely American thing. Even Germans, and German companies including BMW, are often originators of the questions remaining unanswered today. Yet you would quash any discussion at all as meaningless. So sad.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

No, I most certainly would NOT quash any discussion as "meaningless." However, it seems you have decided my opinion is meaningless. 

In post #45 I stated I have trouble with the underlying logic of condemning CURRENT DAY INDIVIDUALS for the sins of their fathers. This is completely different from condemning the PERPETRATORS for their actions, which I do. In fact I have a very hard time with Mullman's friend rationalizing away what the Germans did in the camps. However, I refuse to lay the blame for those heinous acts at the feet of any German born after, say, 1935.

I also refuse to lay the blame at the feet of BMW AG, which (according to the Business Week story), accepted responsibility for its role a decade ago. Quote: "In 1999, BMW and other German companies founded the "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future" foundation, which provides compensation to former forced laborers. "

I was moved by Elie Weisel's comments at Buchenwald this week, and I sympathize with the OP and his dilemma. However, I have an issue with the tone of the Business Week article, and from a new forum member (Apostile, not the OP) rescuscitating an almost-two-year-old story as if it had just been on the Evening News.

I completely understand if the OP or any other 'Fester is troubled by Germany's past. Daimler Benz, Porsche, Audi, VW, etc. all have similar history. If your conscience bothers you buying any German car, so be it. But I don't understand why BMW shoudl be singled out?


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Quackbury, I certainly didn't think your comments were meaningless. My problem was with what I took as your meaning. It's odd that I find so much to agree with in your response that I wonder what I missed. I probably took some comments out of context, and also didn't recall the various points you had made in other posts. Your points are all well taken.
I guess the gist of my comments is that the OP wasn't attacking BMW, and his comments applied only to the extent that he was looking at BMWs. Had he looked at Mercedes maybe he would have had second thoughts after reading a different article about that company.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

DSX I will extend the olive branch right back to you. 

Like I said several times above, I understand the OP's concerns. What I do not agree with is the effort by others (a couple on this thread, plus the Business Week author or editor) who feel BMW should somehow be held accountable for actions of the Quandts, a decade before the family bought the company.

Like Kamdog's and most American families, we had some level of involvement in the war. My dad was an Army Air Corps General's aide, flying around the country monitoring bomber production. His older brother Jim landed in North Africa and Sicily with Patton, while his kid brother Willy flew with a B17 squadron in the South Pacific. My mom's brothers were in the Navy, Wally on convoy duty in the North Atlantic, Frank teaching damage control at Mare Island. 

I am working hard to educate my children about this very complex period of history - not just the geopolitical issues and the genocide, but the sacrifices and hard choices that American families and their allies made to defeat fascism. I am doing my part to make sure the next generation remembers, and is not swayed by the crackpot revisionists like Ahmedinijad.

I am deeply troubled by the atrocities commited by the Nazi's and by the Imperial Forces of Japan. But since those atrocities were caused by a different generation of Germans and Japanese, I don't in any way feel I am "condoning" them by driving a BMW, washing my dishes in a Bosch, or watching Daisuke Matsuzaka throw a no hitter on my Sony television.


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## abelhands (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi,
I am the original poster (OP) and I just thought I should respond to some of the posts and explain some of how I am feeling.

First off, thanks guys for all of the conversation regarding this issue I was having. It's always better, I feel to discuss issues, debate, and then resolve. I don't like some of the banter that has been going back and forth though. I also was not trying to relate this to anything currently that is happening in the world. I was looking at it purely from a historical perspective. I also was most certainly not placing blame on the country of Germany, nor was I placing any blame on people who drive BMW's. I currently own a BMW myself! So that would be incredibly hypocritical of me and I'm just not like that. 

I was just looking for other peoples thoughts and opinions regarding this subject. Not only in regards to the Quandt (sp) family, but also the subject of me myself being Jewish and supporting outwardly a German product such as an expensive car. I understand all of the issues with buying a Toyota or Lexus as well. The only thing is, I do consider myself American, but I also am Jewish. The Holocaust was a terrible trajedy for the world and for the Jewish people, amongst many other groups, i.e. Jehova Witness, homosexuals and gypsy's just to name a few. Sure, during Pearl Harbor and the war with Japan in WW2 it was terrible, and honestly, my Grandfather (in law) who fought in the war with the Navy will still to this day not buy a car made in Japan. He admitted to me it was silly and they should be forgotten, especially since the government's have made up and are at peace. Most of the people are long dead, the people making Toyota for example are the grandchildren of these people who fought against him, yet, he still only buys American. I think a lot of people from his gerneration and even the BabyBoom generation have that sentiment as well. 

It just bugged me a little that the person who is the top shareholder seemed to have ties to the Nazi party through his father & grandfather. With the other corporations that were involved with the Holocaust in some way, like Ford and GM, those companies are not run by the same individuals any longer, while BMW is still pretty much in control by the same family and blood line that it was originally from that era. 

In the case of Japanese cars as well, Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Nissan are not in control by people who had anything to do with Pearl Habor or WW2. So, for me, (in my opinion) not saying it is right for everyone, Japanese cars do not pose the same issue as the BMW, Mercedes or VW do. At least not in my conscience. 

And really, that's all this is. Like I said in my original post, I am not in a position right now to sell the car. I don't think it's worth as much as I would need to say buy a similar car, similar size but in a Lexus form. I did actually try putting a classified ad on this site, as well as others and have had no inquiries. I suppose if I could sell it, and make somewhere in the 5,000 dollar range, I might just do that. I keep going back and forth in my head to about it. I know I might not be as happy in a 95-98 Lexus LS400 (which is what I am looking into), but I am not sure that I can continue with owning a BMW. I am not totally convinced yet either way though, I need to continue looking into my own conscience to see if I think it's ok. 

Thanks again for all of your input. Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone on this site at all. I myself drive a BMW, that I love until I read this article and info. When I bought the car, I was under the impression that only Mercedes and VW were truly involved with the Nazi's and WW2. 

Take care,
Steve


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Steve, I don't think you offended anyone. The beauty of this board is that folks feel comfortable expressing a wide range of opinions.

Your dilemma reminds me of a similar situation. A good friend was a stockbroker at Morgan Stanley. He took a big signing bonus to switch firms to UBS, only to learn that his biggest client would not move with him due to stories about UBS' alleged activities in WWII.

I understand and respect your issue with the Quandt's (though you know my position on not punishing the heirs for the actions of the grandfather). On a symbolic level, your proposed sale of your BMW makes sense.

But on a practical level, how much would you really be "supporting" the Quandt family if you hold on to your car? They are certainly not making any financial gain from your continued ownership. Is it really worth taking a several-thousand-dollar financial hit to get the BMW out of your driveway?

May I suggest it might be more productive to write a check for that finacial hit to the Anti Defamation League or some other qualified charity? At least that way, the $$$ you are prepared to part with will do some good, and you may also benefit from a tax deduction.

Good luck with your decision.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

quackbury said:


> ....
> 
> I am working hard to educate my children about this very complex period of history - not just the geopolitical issues and the genocide, but the sacrifices and hard choices that American families and their allies made to defeat fascism. I am doing my part to make sure the next generation remembers, and is not swayed by the crackpot revisionists like Ahmedinijad.
> 
> I am deeply troubled by the atrocities commited by the Nazi's and by the Imperial Forces of Japan. But since those atrocities were *caused by a different generation *of Germans and Japanese, I don't in any way feel I am "condoning" them by driving a BMW, washing my dishes in a Bosch, or watching Daisuke Matsuzaka throw a no hitter on my Sony television.


I don't think it is the generational change itself that matters, but the new generation(s) acknowledging the depravity of what went on before them and condemning it. I say this because it is in quite stark contrast to comments made on another auto forum about how the Serbs were justified in killing and raping the Bosnians. IIRC, even terms like "final solution" were used. Although that poster was unlikely to have been of a different generation from the perpetrators of a genocide committed barely 15 years ago, I find it quite unlikely his Serbian children will grow up to condemn the atrocities of their forebears.


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## abelhands (Mar 4, 2009)

quackbury said:


> Steve, I don't think you offended anyone. The beauty of this board is that folks feel comfortable expressing a wide range of opinions.
> 
> Your dilemma reminds me of a similar situation. A good friend was a stockbroker at Morgan Stanley. He took a big signing bonus to switch firms to UBS, only to learn that his biggest client would not move with him due to stories about UBS' alleged activities in WWII.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. It shows that you are really taking an active interest in the subject matter based on the thoughtful responses that you write.


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## gtxragtop (Feb 25, 2008)

Any chance he was in the B25 Marine Bomber squadron 611? My dad was and his unit was to invade Japan. It was likely a one-way flight due to the distance.



Kamdog said:


> WW2 is over.
> 
> My father fought against the Japanese, mostly in New Guinea, from late 1942 through the end of the war, at which point he was on readiness for the invasion of Japan. He hated the Japanese. He never bought a Japanese car (or a German one, either). When I bought my own first car, it was Japanese, and he wasn't too happy about it, but, at that time (1973), the war was well over, and we had made peace with Japan. Peace is peace.
> 
> ...


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

gtxragtop said:


> Any chance he was in the B25 Marine Bomber squadron 611? My dad was and his unit was to invade Japan. It was likely a one-way flight due to the distance.


No, he was a dogface. He went over with 240 men in his company, and only 4 originals were still there at the end.

As a real depression kid, he was one tough SOB. Quit school at 14 to help raise the family (he was the eldest). Was a couple of months short of the max age for drafting, so he got drafted right away in the first draft, and wound up losing his business as a result. He was sent to the south for basic training, when some DI called him a Jew Bast*rd, and Jews don't fight. My dad kicked his ass real bad (all that time on the lower East side taught him something). The Base Commander decided to ship him out rather than courtmartial him.

As he described it (when he would talk) as guys got killed, he would get promoted till he got to tech sargent, where he would get busted when he would no longer make up patrol rosters and send his friends out to get killed. Sometime in mid '44, they realized he had a talent for 'procurement' and made him the supply sargent. He understood the entire system, and was often sent back to Australia in gooney birds (C47) to go on requisition runs for the base. That is what saved his life, he became too valuable to send out on patrol.

Them depression era guys, what a tough generation they were.

He would roll over in his grave if he knew I bought a 60K German car. And he loved cars. Always drove Detroit big iron.


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## gtxragtop (Feb 25, 2008)

Yes, this was a different time. My dad lied about his age to join the corps. Lots of patriotism. He was stationed in the pacific islands and his squadron in B25s would do low level over the tree top bombing raids. Needless to say, the losses were high. For years all I heard about was the "Japs". He as others were greatly affected by the war. Over time he mellowed, but he was never going to buy a car made/developed in Japan or Germany.

If interested, check out the VMB611 website... http://www.vmb611.com/fish1.htm

I've been following this thread a bit and personally I think people need to move on. There are instances in time where peoples and nations do bad things. You need to acknowledge this, remember it so that it does not repeat again. There is now a vote in congress to issue a formal apology to the black community on slavery. Give me a F'in break. We as a nation of people have clearly made great progress in racism and condemning past actions of LONG DEAD individuals that were involved with slavery. What's the point of this? Do you think it is going to solve any problems? Do you think it is going to make many African Americans feel like a great weight has been lifted? Do you think that 5-20 years from now anybody is going to remember this historic moment? The answer is no to all 3. Those SOBs in congress need to focus on this countries larger issues instead of wasting valuable time and tax payer dollars on this sort of crap. Sorry... I'm ranting



Kamdog said:


> No, he was a dogface. He went over with 240 men in his company, and only 4 originals were still there at the end.
> 
> As a real depression kid, he was one tough SOB. Quit school at 14 to help raise the family (he was the eldest). Was a couple of months short of the max age for drafting, so he got drafted right away in the first draft, and wound up losing his business as a result. He was sent to the south for basic training, when some DI called him a Jew Bast*rd, and Jews don't fight. My dad kicked his ass real bad (all that time on the lower East side taught him something). The Base Commander decided to ship him out rather than courtmartial him.
> 
> ...


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## Adi (Jun 3, 2006)

Steve

The company is not run by the same people who were in charge during that period. The central idealogy of nazism was purity of blood, ie it was genetics that were important and not character. When you make statements like "BMW is still pretty much in control by the same family and *blood line* that it was originally from that era" you should also question your own world view. Do you think that the Quandt's somehow have 'evil blood'???? If you really do then, even though you are Jewish, your ideas are pretty much in line with Hitler's.
Should you also be avoiding US brands because somewhere along the line, some white employee's ancestors owned slaves, raped them, worked them to death? Give it a break. The past is the past and BMW is not a nazi company. People are individuals, not part of some genetic collective with collective responsibilty.


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## ish (Jan 23, 2007)

abelhands said:


> i think if i were to redo my decision, which i cannot do now, i would buy a lexus, infiniti or acura instead of the bmw.


You really need to research this .........as others have already pointed out, the japanese are not saints !


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## pmgreer (Jun 28, 2009)

Do you ever think of how much of your own country was built by slave labor? Does that bother you?


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## RG1 (Oct 1, 2006)

pmgreer said:


> Do you ever think of how much of your own country was built by slave labor? Does that bother you?


Yes and yes.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

pmgreer said:


> Do you ever think of how much of your own country was built by slave labor? Does that bother you?


Yes, I thought about it. No, it doesn't bother me.

A. Lincoln, second inaugural http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Lincoln/lincoln-2.html



> The Almighty has his own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through his appointed time, he now wills to remove, and that he gives to both North and South this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to him? Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. *Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn by the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said, "The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." *


A bit religious nowadays, but, essentially, it is true. The part of the nation that was built on slavery was the South. That wealth built up by slavery was destroyed. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died in the war. https://www.phil.muni.cz/~vndrzl/amstudies/civilwar_stats.htm

Almost half a million casualties from the side that enslaved, over a half a million casualties from the side that set them free.

IMO, that debt has been paid.

Current day America has no more business feeling guilty about slavery than do current day American black people have any business feeling grateful that they were freed.

America today is not what it was 150 or so years ago.


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

DXK said:


> I didn't mean at that sense...
> as an example, here in Boston, there several great schools and there is lots of supply of talent.


Do these great schools teach Grammar 101? 

J/K, you make a valid point, just playing with you.


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## DrivingPassion (Nov 17, 2006)

Mitsubishi is the original company that manufactured the Zeros which bombed Pearl Harbor. And, we helped them off the feet to be a global conglomerate.


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## fully loaded (Jun 24, 2009)

mullman said:


> I do not particularly care for that either, but why be so easily 'offended' by words on a silly sticker on a crappy pickup??


It's not like I wanted to cry about it or write my congressman in disgust.



mullman said:


> Grow a pair...


Really?


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## fully loaded (Jun 24, 2009)

Michael Schott said:


> To me this sounds like a gross stereotype and as one with Jewish parents and dozens of Jewish friends, I know this to be wrong. regarding Jews driving German cars, most Jews in the US in 2009 had few if any direct ties to WWII. So the owning of a German vehicle has no social or mental stigma anymore. However I do have Jewish friends who lost aunts and uncles in the camps and to this day will not drive German cars.


Not really. I didn't say all persons of Jewish descent, I said of all the Jewish people I know, making it an accurate statement. I only know one who lost relatives in the camps and he drives a RR but one of his sons and his daughter both drive BMWs having switched from Mercedes in the late 90s.


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## Adi (Jun 3, 2006)

mullman said:


> And that precisely is a problem.
> 
> But, Thx!
> 'Deluded' is one of the least nasty things I have ever been called....


I don't see it as a problem. There is always a balance to be struck between individual freedom and responsbility to your fellow man. People can't be allowed to say anything they want without _some_ limitations or there would be no functioning commúnity any more. We often modify the way we express ourselves to take account of the effect on other people. The issue is of course defining the boundary between what is socially permissible/desirable and what is not.


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

Since this thread has mentioned German & Japanese firms during the war years, let's not forget Henry Ford's opinion on Jews.
In the early 1920s he published a series of articles in the Dearborn Independent:

The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem.

and in scanned book form

Many younger people today are probably not aware of this.
Talk about blatant anti-semitism.

Would one man's rantings prevent you from buying a Ford today?


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## fully loaded (Jun 24, 2009)

mullman said:


> Since this thread has mentioned German & Japanese firms during the war years, let's not forget Henry Ford's opinion on Jews.
> In the early 1920s he published a series of articles in the Dearborn Independent:
> 
> The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem.
> ...


And I'll never buy another Ford


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

fully loaded said:


> Not really. I didn't say all persons of Jewish descent, I said of all the Jewish people I know, making it an accurate statement. I only know one who lost relatives in the camps and he drives a RR but one of his sons and his daughter both drive BMWs having switched from Mercedes in the late 90s.


I don't want to get into semantics but go back and read the post I quote. I may have misinterpreted what you said but it sounds to me like a stereotype. I apologize if I didn't get the correct meaning or am being too sensitive.

Thanks, Mike.


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