# For Those Who Think That BMW Has Lost It's Way...



## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

I disagree wholeheartedly. When you drive new BMWs every day and have the opportunity to compare them to Japanese cars and/or US domestics, you can appreciate the difference. It all about balance, and BMW still goes much further than any other brand save Porsche in achieving balance.

If you are looking for the postmodern interpretation of say the E21 or E30, then the new M240xi is your car.


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## M_Bimmer (Dec 14, 2019)

Jon Shafer said:


> .....and BMW still goes much further than any other brand save Porsche in achieving balance.


I agree with you, except your claim about Porsche....just the technical data that is made available about our BMW's that supports our "self-help" is well beyond what others provide...including Porsche.

The bang-for-your-buck, BMW is a bargain if compared to similar cost points across Brands, and BMW beats Porsche by along shot....

I would only drive, and own a 911 (which I do) from Porsche's vehicle lineup. The rest? BMW has them beat all day long....and while there isn't technically an equivalent BMW to the 911, and if you spent the equivalent of a 911 at BMW, you'd get so much more, and additionally have money left over to invest.....given that they both have comparable material, comparable construction, and comparable engineering....IMHO.

My colleague owns an M240 soft-top and had no problem outpacing the rest of the pack up Palomar Mountain's windy roads....my 911 was pushing it to just keep up...and the M240 was impressive (it just needed wider rear tires).....


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## kmersh (Oct 13, 2015)

My Brother owns a Lexus and it is a perfectly good car, nicely appointed, excellent fit and finish, but it is so incredibly boring. He loves it, I had for a week and it is a very nice car to live with every day, Lexus does a very good job at making a very nice, comfortable car, but it did not excite me in the slightest and that touchpad things is terrible.

A neighbor drives an Audi S4 and it is also a perfectly good car, the seats are especially nice, but he jokes that the S stands for slightly sportier.

I came to BMW only 6 years ago after having a Mustang as my sports car for many years, I always knew that Mustangs were not the most balanced cars, but they always appealed to me and I always enjoyed the V8 noise they made.

The BMW is indeed very balanced, especially the driving dynamics and you can tell that the Engineers in a sense allotted their budgeted dollars to things others than luxury niceties, that is not to say that the fit and finish is not nice, it is very nice, however, it is just not as nice as say Audi or Lexus. The Audi cabin is nicer, especially the seats, but it just does not drive as nicely nor corner like my 330i did/does (just turned it in due to my lease being due).

If anything, I sincerely wish BMW would do something about its dealers (at least in the USA), hiding behind they are a franchisee and thus able to do as they please (within reason) is no bueno when I am spending the cash I am on a vehicle.

There should be a set of standards that all franchisees have to abide by and a franchisee should not be able to get special exceptions just because they were able to make a deal with BMWNA (like my local dealer did in not providing loaners to those who did not directly purchase/lease for them). It is annoying and just seems very anti-customer service.

I have a friend who is a Swiss and the dealership experience in Zurich was night and day different, granted, I am sure that there are good dealers in the States too, but when I went in with my friend to buy his BMW a number of years ago, it was like walking into what I imagine a luxury dealer should be like. Professional, knowledgeable, wanting to be helpful, something Jon has talked about, a lack of professionalism that some US dealers exhibit.

I do not profess to understand car sales, I have never sold a thing a day in my life, but I have got to imagine that there is a failure of training somewhere, when I go into my local dealer (because if I buy anywhere else I will not get a service loaner for any reason, it is just a hard no) and the young man I have an appointment with looks like he just got out of bed 30 minutes before, wearing a BMW polo shirt and a pair of jeans, has no idea who I am, what I am looking for nor how to even proceed without going to the "Manager" 5 times in 30 minutes (I counted).

Finally we get going and I say I would like to do PCD (and I am not making this up), he looks at me like a deer in headlights, (you can see the cogs in his brain turning) and he says, umm do you mean you would like to take delivery of your car in front of the BMW M Performance logo in front of our building?

I pulled up the PCD website and hand him my phone, he proceeds to read my phone for a few minutes and then I kid you not, he gets up with my phone and says I need to talk to the Manager and just walks off with my phone without even asking if he can take my phone to show it to the Manager. Only coming back to ask me to unlock my phone because it locked on the way to the Manager's office, I followed him to the Manager's office where he informed me that I am not allowed inside and would need me to wait outside, but please unlock your phone before I go in.

The BMW is a great car, no two ways about it, the removal of features sucks, but it is not out of spite or malice, BMW is suffering along with every other company right now who needs computer chips.

This too shall pass, I will get my car delivered at the PCD and I will be happy, but it should not be this hard, if BMW really wanted to stand out, they would have more "Jon Shaffers" selling cars, they would tightly regulate their franchised dealers and in my very layman view of things make a better buying experience than I had when the CA says to me, do you mean you want to take delivery in front of the BMW M Performance sign in front of the dealer


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

I drove a Porsche 911E from 1973 purchase (~$18K) until 1979 when I had to fit a family. I’d try a Porsche SAV. But I am pleased with my X5 and hope to drive it to my grave.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

My back is hurting just thinking about climbing in that back seat to wash the inside of the back windows.

I'm not crazy about the big chunk of black trim on the back bumper.

They're offering non-run-flat tires, but no spare tire. That seems to be a trend with coupes. That would stop me from buying one. That's also what will stop me from getting a 992 Carrera. The 991 Carrera offered a collapsible spare tire kit..

I see a 330i in my future, after the parts shortages are over and my 535i hits ten years old.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

The litmus test for any BMW is, how does it handle and how well does the steering connect your hands to the road?


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## mattinfll (Oct 5, 2010)

I spend a lot of time in Florida for work, and when there I often drive a buddy's year old MB GLE with an AMG look package. It's luxurious inside and out and the tech inside is very impressive, but it drives like a marshmallow. No steering connection, no optimized pull from the engine for passing. Just mush. Even my 2019 X1 was more fun to drive and just more engaging. Now my new X4 M40i is putting a smile on my face every day. No one does driving dynamics like BMW, in an accessible package. (IMHO, Porsche way overcharges to get like content )


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## Justbananas (Jul 5, 2021)

kmersh said:


> *There should be a set of standards* that all franchisees have to abide by and a franchisee should not be able to get special exceptions just because they were able to make a deal with BMWNA (like my local dealer did in not providing loaners to those who did not directly purchase/lease for them). It is annoying and just seems very anti-customer service.


You mean like… NOT making your customer leave a 5 star review BEFORE they’ll complete the deal with a threat to pull your deal and give it to someone else if you don’t? Who needs standards ? Standards schmanders 🤦‍♂️


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

And you reward this egregious behavior by dealing with that shop? SMH


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## kmersh (Oct 13, 2015)

Justbananas said:


> You mean like… NOT making your customer leave a 5 star review BEFORE they’ll complete the deal with a threat to pull your deal and give it to someone else if you don’t? Who needs standards ? Standards schmanders 🤦‍♂️


I would report that sort of behavior to BMWNA, while nothing might come of your complaint, Corporate needs to know.


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## Justbananas (Jul 5, 2021)

quackbury said:


> And you reward this egregious behavior by dealing with that shop? SMH


Yeah for 8% off MSRP in 2021, you do. At least the review they requested was honest.. to say, the review was truthful, short and sweet. That review was worth 5600 bucks, however, it was shaaaty to be threatened after you’ve ordered a car, paid a down payment, and waited months while rest of the car market burns to the ground…


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

The 230i with MT I bought from Jon is a direct descendent of the e36 and e46 models.

The 2 series are amazing cars.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

paulg said:


> The 230i with MT I bought from Jon is a direct descendent of the e36 and e46 models.
> 
> The 2 series are amazing cars.


The 2er is my favorite of all these days.. If I were to order something new today it would surely be a 2 Series!


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Jon Shafer said:


> The 2er is my favorite of all these days.. If I were to order something new today it would surely be a 2 Series!


The lack of a spare tire (and a hole under the trunk floor to put it) will prevent me from getting a 2 Series coupe, and a 4 Series, and an M 2/3/4, and a Porsche Carrera for that matter.


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## M_Bimmer (Dec 14, 2019)

Autoputzer said:


> The lack of a spare tire ...., a Porsche Carrera for that matter.


Last time I looked, all 911 991's and 992's, not just the Carrera, didn't have a spare from the factory...but you can get one for $1495 from Suncoast...and it will fit in the Frunk...😁

Bimmerzone has a similar spare tire kit for a much reasonable price, $334, for the M240....cheap insurance that shouldn't sway your options.....

(Cheaper and lighter to just carry a AAA card, and not sure how many 911 owner's actually use their vehicle as a long hauler, but I agree, it would a PITA when ever and where ever it would occur without a spare....)


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

M_Bimmer said:


> Last time I looked, all 911 991's and 992's, not just the Carrera, didn't have a spare from the factory...but you can get one for $1495 from Suncoast...and it will fit in the Frunk...😁
> 
> Bimmerzone has a similar spare tire kit for a much reasonable price, $334, for the M240....cheap insurance that shouldn't sway your options.....
> 
> (Cheaper and lighter to just carry a AAA card, and not sure how many 911 owner's actually use their vehicle as a long hauler, but I agree, it would a PITA when ever and where ever it would occur without a spare....)


You "dot-dot-dot-ed" out the part of my comment about also having a hole under the trunk floor to put a spare tire in. In addition to having a spare tire, I also need a trunk with a flat floor. We balked at buying an E84 X1 or an F25 X3 because they didn't have a spare tire and a hole to put it in. We eventually got a G01 X3 which has an optional spare tire AND optional 19" all-season, non-run-flat tires. 

The F22's out of production. The G42 doesn't offer a spare, or have a hole to put one in.

That Porsche spare was a factory option in some countries, just not in the US. It doesn't go in the frunk, because that would affect frontal crash performance. It goes in a "baby seat" in the back seat. It only fits on the front. If you get a flat tire on the back, the usual case, you have to put a front tire on the back and then put the spare on the front. The 991 had the same tire rolling diameter front and rear. The 992's rear tires' rolling diameter is one inch more than the front. So, that spare tire doesn't work. So, the 992 is off my shopping list.


















I'd feel really stupid sitting on the side of the road with a shredded tire, in BFE, with no spare, at 2 a.m., waiting for BMW Roadside Assistance thinking "Damnit, if I'd taken my Chevy Cobalt, I'd be home in bed by now."










The main reason I buy expensive cars is for road trips. No spare, and no hole for a spare, means no deal.


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## ghpup (Nov 19, 2008)

M_Bimmer said:


> (Cheaper and lighter to just carry a AAA card, and not sure how many 911 owner's actually use their vehicle as a long hauler, but I agree, it would a PITA when ever and where ever it would occur without a spare....)


I once had a back and forth follow the leader bit at 85mph through South East Oregon (back when the speed limit was 55mph probably 6 years ago) with a 911...in the rain... we were at least 200 miles outside of Reno meaning probably 100 miles outside of Winnemucca on US 95 north of McDermott... yes, that is out is the middle of nowheresville... I was in my f10 diesel.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Autoputzer said:


> The lack of a spare tire (and a hole under the trunk floor to put it) will prevent me from getting a 2 Series coupe, and a 4 Series, and an M 2/3/4, and a Porsche Carrera for that matter.


More importantly, where do your store your buggy whip, your 8 track collection, and the spare jets for your Fish carburetor?

I thought you were a baller. Don't you have people who can drive behind you with a UHaul?


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

quackbury said:


> More importantly, where do your store your buggy whip, your 8 track collection, and the spare jets for your Fish carburetor?
> 
> I thought you were a baller. Don't you have people who can drive behind you with a UHaul?


That monkeyazzduck, he so funny.

Just wait until you're sitting on the side of the road at 2 a.m. with a shredded tire, wondering who will show up first: BMW Roadside Assistance or that "squeal like a pig, boy" guy from Deliverance, and then you find out that BMW Roadside Assistance IS that "squeal like a pig, boy" guy from Deliverance.


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## JC-TX (8 mo ago)

kmersh said:


> I do not profess to understand car sales, I have never sold a thing a day in my life, but I have got to imagine that there is a failure of training somewhere, when I go into my local dealer (because if I buy anywhere else I will not get a service loaner for any reason, it is just a hard no)


I've stated here before that, if you want top service from BMW, including things like loaners, you need to have purchased an extended warranty when you bought the car and, preferably, purchased the car from them. That is why when, in many dealerships, when you drop off a car the first thing a service advisor will ask you is "Do you have an extended warranty?" even if the car is still under original warranty. And, as you've stated, there is nothing you can do about it. I, too, wish that BMW owned or controlled their US dealerships.

In the US, everything is based on the dollar, EVERYTHING. And when we are in a period, as we have been for several years now, when every desirable model sells immediately at window sticker, the service is going to go down. They don't need to sell themselves. In my very large city, there are no BMWs available period, other than custom order. Everything is sold. And the dealer sales people know it.

Some dealerships are bottom-of-the-barrel, but there are others that are top notch. it all depends on the dealership manager.


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## JC-TX (8 mo ago)

ghpup said:


> This is probably your issue. You're looking for a two wheel BMW (i.e.: Beamer) at a 4 wheel BMW (Bimmer) dealer.


If you'd hand 70k to a sales guy that didn't return your calls the problem is on your end, not mine bro.


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## ghpup (Nov 19, 2008)

JC-TX said:


> If you'd hand 70k to a sales guy that didn't return your calls the problem is on your end, not mine bro.


Never happen, past or future. Also not likely to pay $70k for any vehicle. Hopefully the last two we purchased are the last.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

JC-TX said:


> I’ve been here since 2005. I don’t care what you think.


How very strange. Your signature says you joined in May of this year. Whether or not you care what I think, don't bother responding, as I have added you to my "Ignore" list. 


bjsbuds said:


> Went to the same local dealership, put a deposit down in March, and from there it has been all I can do to keep from asking for my deposit back and totally forget about ever owning a BMW again.
> Unanswered emails, and when answering no specific answers and no explanations. It's like I am totally bothering them. So frustrated, I finally reached out to the new car sales manager, who admitted that he had received complaints from other customers about this SA (who by the way is rated so high on dealerater... so what is that website worth?). He said from now on just deal with me. I thought finally...but, the same responses, delayed and when they come back, vague and no answers.
> 
> Would love to know if others are getting the same treatment at Kia, Honda, dealerships.


Sadly, while there are still terrific dealerships around, more are more are being bought up by consolidators / chains, like Penske, AutoNation and various regional chains. Some of those do a great job at customer satisfaction. Others? Not so much.

There is a dealership in MA that for decades was owned by an enthusiast. They gave great service, and the GSM was a big sponsor of BMWCCA events. All around class act, and a terrific sales and service experience. I won't name the dealership, but they were located on Cape Cod.

BMWNA issued one of its periodic edicts: In order to continue representing the marque, the enthusiast owner would have to invest in a ginormous new showroom, with espresso bar, meditation rooms, and all the frou-frou nonsenses that some clueless marketing moron felt distinguished the marque. The local guy threw in the towel and sold out to one of the giant conglomerators. And the sales and service experience went straight into the toilet.

I was seriously interested in a gorgeous Snapper Rocks 440i MSport Vert with M Performance bits, and pre-arranged a test drive before I drove over the bridge. I was met by a salesman who I am sure was selling used cars at the chain's Kia store the week (maybe the day) before. Despite the email correspondence, the 440 had not been prepped. Its battery was not charged. It was not even on the lot. But I could drive this lovely 320i lease return, because "it's really the exact same car". This is why those of us who love BMW's stay loyal to a dealer; mine is an hour from my house (longer during Boston rush hour) despite the fact there are three closer to me, all owned by faceless chains.

My advice: Cancel the order. Order from Jon Shafer or Adrian Avila and take Performance Center Delivery. Hit up the Tail of the Dragon on the way home, maybe stay the weekend in Nashville. Better pricing, better experience, no drama and no bullsh*t.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

PS: The ultimate weapon in negotiating with dealerships - over loaners or anything else - is your CSI score. Those have a direct economic impact on the principal, the management, and maybe even the service advisor. While I believe BMWNA mandates a loaner be provided if you made an appointment, since COVID the dealership has not been required to provide you with a traditional BMW Service Loaner. How you play the CSI game can make a big difference.

My 2020 540 is sitting at that dealership an hour from my house. It was taken there by the dealership's valet who dropped off a 2018 540 lease return at my house on Wednesday. The valet will return my car on Monday, saving me 4-plus hours of my life in traffic going to and fro. And I will have nothing but praise - and high CSI scores - for the experience.


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## JC-TX (8 mo ago)

quackbury said:


> How very strange. Your signature says you joined in May of this year.


when the password requirements changed some people had to create new ids. Nothing strange.


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## JC-TX (8 mo ago)

4


quackbury said:


> PS: The ultimate weapon in negotiating with dealerships - over loaners or anything else - is your CSI score. Those have a direct economic impact on the principal, the management, and maybe even the service advisor. While I believe BMWNA mandates a loaner be provided if you made an appointment, since COVID the dealership has not been required to provide you with a traditional BMW Service Loaner. How you play the CSI game can make a big difference.
> 
> My 2020 540 is sitting at that dealership an hour from my house. It was taken there by the dealership's valet who dropped off a 2018 540 lease return at my house on Wednesday. The valet will return my car on Monday, saving me 4-plus hours of my life in traffic going to and fro. And I will have nothing but praise - and high CSI scores - for the experience.


they certainly do NOT have to provide a loaner, regardless of what you “believe”. My credit score is quite well known by my dealer and sa and has absolutely nothing to do with anything outside of your session with finance.


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## alex2364 (May 8, 2006)

JC-TX said:


> 4
> 
> 
> they certainly do NOT have to provide a loaner, regardless of what you “believe”. My credit score is quite well known by my dealer and sa and has absolutely nothing to do with anything outside of your session with finance.


Ughhh, CSI isn’t your credit score. 😂


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