# opinions on the dinan engine software



## Magna (Jan 4, 2002)

i attended a talk given by steve dinan and i am intrigued by the engine software. i am interested in the software for better trottle response. basically he said that BMW's software is written for average driver and to control emissions, while his software is more oriented for performance. he doesn't directly claim a hp increase. he said the software would help with acceleration (and that in turn would increase hp).


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Magna said:


> *he said the software would help with acceleration (and that in turn would increase hp). *


you should have asked him to explain this. the software makes no HP as stated on their web site. the way that it might affect acceleration (and it would likely depend on the driver) is that it increases the red-line by 240RPM and therefore your shift point (albeit slightly). that's really splitting hairs, though and unless you competed for a living or even a hoby, the cost may not be worth the miniscule advantage under extreme conditions. you can also "accelerate" past the previously governed top speed.

since the throttle doesn't open any further (doesn't actually let any more air in), I'm not sure what the recalibrated EML does that the driver can't already compensate for with his/her foot on the accelerator pedal.


----------



## Magna (Jan 4, 2002)

*31st330i:*

Thanks for your feedback, by the way, we have the same color car, except mine is a 323i.

I don't particularly like the slow trottle response from the BMW software when I rev-match on downshifts, but reading your webpage and other feedback, I don't think I am going to get it. I've read that Dinan's software makes the trottle response quicker only the up (opening), while others have said the software only affects the trottle on the down (closing). All the uncertainties doesn't make me comfortable.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

*Re: 31st330i:*



Magna said:


> *I've read that Dinan's software makes the trottle response quicker only the up (opening), while others have said the software only affects the trottle on the down (closing). All the uncertainties doesn't make me comfortable. *


I don't quite understand what you mean here (sounds like you might understand it either). to the best of my knowledge, the net effect of the recalibrated EML is that the throttle valve reacts more agressivly to input at the electrically coupled accelerator pedal.

in the motorcycle world, the same thing is accomplished mechanically by changing the cam pulleys that actuate the throttle cable. the cam pulley in the hand grip can be made larger and/or the cam pulley on the carburetor cluster can be made smaller. this is very different from making the engine itself more responsive to the *same* movement of the throttle *valve*.


----------



## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: 31st330i:*



Magna said:


> *Thanks for your feedback, by the way, we have the same color car, except mine is a 323i.
> *


ummm....you have a 323i, the software DOES increase power. It does not re-calibrate the throttle settings because 323s do not have electronic throttles...


----------



## Magna (Jan 4, 2002)

31st330i:

i don't completely understand what they are saying either. some say, that pressing the trottle pedal is more responsive (reach higher rpm with same pressure on the pedals) with Dinan. other say the responsive comes from letting go of the trottle (rpms don't hang, they fall faster) with the Dinan. if that's true than i would say that rev-match downshifts would be easier to accomplish. right now, i would want trottle to more responsive when i press the pedal and when i let go (no hanging).


nate:

do you have the dinan software in your car? how's is it in your opinion. i believe i have a mechanical pedal linkage to an electronic trottle, while the new 330i's have electronic pedal linkage to an electronic trottle.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: 31st330i:*



nate328Ci said:


> *ummm....you have a 323i, the software DOES increase power. It does not re-calibrate the throttle settings because 323s do not have electronic throttles... *


yes, Nate is correct, sorry for not catching the fact that you have a 323. by all acounts that I've read, the Dinan software does make HP on the 323/328 models.

as I recall, the reason for this is that the number of fuel maps were doubled on the 325/330 models so the OEM sofware has more information available for a wider variety of conditions. with respect to the 325/330 software, Dinan is the ounly vendor out of the 4 total that I've heard of that does not play with cam timing via the VANOS. this accounts for other vendors making higher HP claims even on the 323/328 software and *any* HP with the 325/330 software.


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: 31st330i:*



nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> ummm....you have a 323i, the software DOES increase power. It does not re-calibrate the throttle settings because 323s do not have electronic throttles... *


Technically, the 323 and the 328 DOES have electronic throttls...Except it's hooked up to the gas pedal by a mechanical linkage.

The 325 and the 330 takes this one step further and has a 100% electrical system, where the pedal input into the electronic throttle is ALSO electronic.


----------



## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: 31st330i:*



The HACK said:


> *
> 
> Technically, the 323 and the 328 DOES have electronic throttls...Except it's hooked up to the gas pedal by a mechanical linkage.
> 
> The 325 and the 330 takes this one step further and has a 100% electrical system, where the pedal input into the electronic throttle is ALSO electronic. *


I was waiting for someone to say this, thank you. I think you know what I meant...


----------



## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Magna said:


> *
> nate:
> 
> do you have the dinan software in your car? how's is it in your opinion. i believe i have a mechanical pedal linkage to an electronic trottle, while the new 330i's have electronic pedal linkage to an electronic trottle. *


I like it. Nice power gain. Better mid range torque. Might want to consider the Conforti as well...


----------



## DKJBama330ci (Dec 22, 2001)

Magna said:


> *31st330i:
> 
> other say the responsive comes from letting go of the trottle (rpms don't hang, they fall faster) with the Dinan. if that's true than i would say that rev-match downshifts would be easier to accomplish. right now, i would want trottle to more responsive when i press the pedal and when i let go (no hanging).
> 
> *


AFAIK The only thing that is going to materially make revs drop faster would be a lighter weight flywheeel. I'm no expert though.

DKJ


----------



## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

DKJBama330ci said:


> *
> 
> AFAIK The only thing that is going to materially make revs drop faster would be a lighter weight flywheeel. I'm no expert though.
> 
> DKJ *


That is one way, but it won't help much if BMW has the DME keeping the throttle open for a fraction of a second after you take your foot off, and from what I've seen with my car this appears to be the case in some situations. I vaguely recall a TSB that was put out for the early 325s/330s to fix this, does anyone else remember that?

I would have liked to have gone to the Dinan tech session, but the 4th autocross event was the same day.   I chose to wear down my Pilot Sports instead of just sitting around.


----------



## Magna (Jan 4, 2002)

thanks for all the feedback. hmmm, not sure what to do now. i suppose i could take a chance and buy it and see if i like it.

by the way, the dinan rep. said that the DME can take only so many flashes (another word for download?), thus buying the Shark could be a problem.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Magna said:


> *thanks for all the feedback. hmmm, not sure what to do now. i suppose i could take a chance and buy it and see if i like it.*


no can do. fist of all, you don't get a physical product with the Dinan software. they flash your car with their computer and their flashing algorythm. Hack can fill you in on the transferability of ownership bit (even between *HIS OWN* two cars).

once you've flash a car with a shark injector, it becomes personalized to that car and is useless to anyone else (except perhaps a very knowledgable hacker).



Magna said:


> *by the way, the dinan rep. said that the DME can take only so many flashes (another word for download?), thus buying the Shark could be a problem. *


sounds like the Dinan sales drone is spreading some FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) designed to do nothing more than prevent you from purchasing a competing brand. Steve Dinan himself is a straight shooter so unless I heard something like that from him or perhaps one of his software engineers, count it as pure, unfiltered, 100% genuine, BS.

besides, why would you switch back and forth between software once installed unless you had a problem? from what I've been told by a VERY reliable source, there may be like five people in the world who can tell that your software has been modified.


----------



## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

Magna said:


> *
> 
> by the way, the dinan rep. said that the DME can take only so many flashes (another word for download?), thus buying the Shark could be a problem. *


This is likely correct, but exagerated. If the DME stores its software in a Flash ROM or an EEPROM (Electrically Erasable Programable Read Only Memory), which is very likely, there is a finite number of times that it can be programmed. However, this number is usually somewhere in the thousands.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

cenotaph said:


> *which is very likely, there is a finite number of times that it can be programmed. However, this number is usually somewhere in the thousands. *


but it still means that the sales drone is spreading FUD designed to do nothing more than prevent one from purchasing a competing brand.

I've spoken to the Dinan sales drones myself and couldn't believe the info that they spewed. on the other hand, I have in the past spoken to a sales person or two over there that has been very knowledgable as well as ethical.


----------



## Munich (Jun 29, 2002)

I have reflashed my car at least 2 times with different software and I don't think it is a problem, however there are traces of it when you connect it to a dealer DIS, as except them can clear the error codes that happens when you reflash your ECU.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Munich said:


> *I have reflashed my car at least 2 times with different software and I don't think it is a problem, however there are traces of it when you connect it to a dealer DIS, as except them can clear the error codes that happens when you reflash your ECU. *


how are these traces visible (how do you know that any Dinan or Conforti software turds still exist)?

can you clarify the last part of the sentence?


----------



## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*actually, i have also been told this.*

for some reason, the ECU in my 2000 m coupe, which was tweaked all of the time....i was warned about the finite number of times the ECU could be flashed with new software.

they must get this idea from somewhere.......


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> no can do. fist of all, you don't get a physical product with the Dinan software. they flash your car with their computer and their flashing algorythm. Hack can fill you in on the transferability of ownership bit (even between *HIS OWN* two cars).
> *


Indeed. Dinan does offer something like a 30 day money back guaranteed, if you don't like the software download they'll give you your money back.

However, there is NO WAY they'll transfer the software from one car to another, even between two IDENTICAL cars. My wife and I both drive 323Ci, production date seperated by two month and she's got an automatic transmission. It's the same software download and they wouldn't even let me try to transfer the software from my car to her car.

Coming from a person who's tried both the Shark Injector and the Dinan software on the same identical car (my 323Ci), I'd say wait for the Shark if you can. It is a dramatic difference and the ease of operation for the Shark won me over.


----------



## ed325i (Dec 20, 2001)

Original Intel FLASH had a limit of 100,000 writes per lifetime. I think they have improved it since then.

Ed


----------



## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*i'd wait for the convenience of the shark injector, too.*

i truly would.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

I too am waiting for the shark, especially after my email conversation with the land shark himself.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

so magna...

yes, the Dinan software is a quality product and will make more HP for your 323 plus do a number of other things. the Shark Injector (Conforti) is also a quality product and it does everything that the Dinan software does *plus* it modifies your cam timing via VANOS giving you even more HP.

as part of their agreement with BMWNA, Dinan must report all cars that they upgrade the software on to BMWNA and your car will be flagged in their computer as modified. this is according to the software engineer who developed the 330 software on my car.

as I've said before, if you use the shark injector on your car, it's your own dirty little secret.


----------



## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

So HACK, you'd say without a doubt that the Shark provided a more noticeable increase in performance? I had Dinan on my mind, but it's true, the conveneince of being able to reset the software in my garage is tempting. If the performance is that much greater I guess it's a no-brainer.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> *So HACK, you'd say without a doubt that the Shark provided a more noticeable increase in performance? *


yes. this is due to the reasons I mentioned above.


----------



## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

31st330i said:


> *as part of their agreement with BMWNA, Dinan must report all cars that they upgrade the software on to BMWNA and your car will be flagged in their computer as modified. this is according to the software engineer who developed the 330 software on my car.
> 
> as I've said before, if you use the shark injector on your car, it's your own dirty little secret.  *


Are you serious? That's scary, almost a Big Brother type of thing. :tsk:


----------



## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> yes. this is due to the reasons I mentioned above. *


Yeah, I read how it would work better _in theory_ thanks to your very good replies, but I was curious of how it performs in the real world.


----------



## Munich (Jun 29, 2002)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> how are these traces visible (how do you know that any Dinan or Conforti software turds still exist)?
> 
> can you clarify the last part of the sentence? *


Sure, yesterday I went by the dealer with an EML and ASC Light that went on and then disappeared from the radar screen as fast as it showed up last weekend. I explained that to the dealer, and he went and put my car on the DIS tool. It had like 10 or 15 errors in the memory of the car computer. He looked at it and asked me if I had changed the software. I said yes, and he said that is why there is so many codes in here, those codes happens when you reflash your ECU, so there were no way that he would know what was the problem with my car, he deleted those codes and told me to come back in case the problem arises. So, they definitely know that the software has been upgraded. Regarding your specific question about Comforti or Dinan, I dunno, as I haven't used them, I used an extreme agressive software from Nowack.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> *
> 
> Yeah, I read how it would work better in theory thanks to your very good replies, but I was curious of how it performs in the real world. *


think of it this way...

your ignition timing is advanced and the mixture is tweaked in the fuel and ignition maps of your software (in the old days, you did this by advancing the timing by turning the distributer and replacing or rejetting your carburetor).

playing with the VANOS is like installing an adjustable cam sprocket where you could tweek the cam timing to tune your power curve. retarding the exhaust cam timing a few degrees typically nets you better top end. I'm not sure specifically what conforti does or at what RPM but with electronic control of cam timing, there's much more room for improvement than with adjustable cam pulleys. for example, you could tweek cams one way at a given low RPM for improved torque and another way at the upper RPS for improved top end.

it's not just theory, it's fact based on what people do to less advanced fuel injected systems on earlier cars (just take a browse of the miata tweakers boards for example).

the magic isn't in what they do with the software, it's how they do it. all you're paying for is a way to advance your timing a little more and tweak the air fuel mixture slightly under given conditions. mucking with VANOS takes it a step further.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Munich said:


> *Sure, yesterday I went by the dealer with an EML and ASC Light that went on and then disappeared from the radar screen as fast as it showed up last weekend. I explained that to the dealer, and he went and put my car on the DIS tool. It had like 10 or 15 errors in the memory of the car computer. He looked at it and asked me if I had changed the software. I said yes, and he said that is why there is so many codes in here, those codes happens when you reflash your ECU, so there were no way that he would know what was the problem with my car, he deleted those codes and told me to come back in case the problem arises. So, they definitely know that the software has been upgraded. Regarding your specific question about Comforti or Dinan, I dunno, as I haven't used them, I used an extreme agressive software from Nowack. *


so he in fact could NOT tell that the software was flashed. you told him when he suspected it. furthermore, the software didn't cause the codes, the tech installing the software did. the tech you spoke with sounds sharp. because of his own experience his *guessed* correctly.

no the don't know that the software has been "upgraded" just that it was flashed.


----------



## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> think of it this way...
> 
> *


Yeah, I know what you're saying. The Nissan SR20DE was one of the last engines produced that could be tuned with simple distributer timing adjustment. Like you with your Miata, a 200SX SE-R or old Sentra SE-R is tempting me for it's lightweight and simplicity in general.

My main concern was that although the Shark Injector would increase performance more than the Dinan, I wanted to know if it is a meaningful increase over _stock_, not relative to other ECU-tuning products.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> *My main concern was that although the Shark Injector would increase performance more than the Dinan, I wanted to know if it is a meaningful increase over stock, not relative to other ECU-tuning products. *


ah! well, the vendors that are mucking with VANOS (all but Dinan: Conforti, AutoT & AA) are all claiming about the same HP gain (~15 peak? - well, JimC didn't mention a number but the other two did). most people can't feel gains less than 5HP, myself included. a 15HP is noticible and will likely be at the upper end of the RPM band. there should be dyno charts to prove this.


----------



## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> ah! well, the vendors that are mucking with VANOS (all but Dinan: Conforti, AutoT & AA) are all claiming about the same HP gain (~15 peak? - well, JimC didn't mention a number but the other two did). most people can't feel gains less than 5HP, myself included. a 15HP is noticible and will likely be at the upper end of the RPM band. there should be dyno charts to prove this. *


Yeah, I found a .pdf file on the UUC site with the graph for the Shark Injector. I was really interested in that 7000RPM redline. :yikes: There's only like a 6hp peak gain, but it is all over the rev range. See it here: http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_product/conforti/dyno_charts/E46323i.pdf


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> * There's only like a 6hp peak gain, but it is all over the rev range. See it here: http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_product/conforti/dyno_charts/E46323i.pdf *


interesting. I guess it's clear then that you need an intake to take full advantage of the new upper end HP.


----------



## Munich (Jun 29, 2002)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> so he in fact could NOT tell that the software was flashed. you told him when he suspected it. furthermore, the software didn't cause the codes, the tech installing the software did. the tech you spoke with sounds sharp. because of his own experience his *guessed* correctly.
> 
> no the don't know that the software has been "upgraded" just that it was flashed. *


Talking about real World, if would not have tell him that the ECU was flashed, he would then presume that the ECU was bad, he would go back in there, reflash it with the factory software for my car, and would clear the errors. Long story short, I would have lost my 400 dollars upgrade.


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Munich said:


> * Long story short, I would have lost my 400 dollars upgrade. *


nope. first of all, dinan puts a label on the BMW diagnostic port that states not to flash it (it would also tell him that the software was modified). secondly, I'm fairly certain that with your receipt, dinan would reflash it at no charge (perhaps a 1/2 hour of labor).


----------



## Munich (Jun 29, 2002)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> nope. first of all, dinan puts a label on the BMW diagnostic port that states not to flash it (it would also tell him that the software was modified). secondly, I'm fairly certain that with your receipt, dinan would reflash it at no charge (perhaps a 1/2 hour of labor). *


I don't want to be obnoxious, but I told you, my sw is not Dinan, it is Nowack.:thumbup:


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

Munich said:


> *I don't want to be obnoxious, but I told you, my sw is not Dinan, it is Nowack.:thumbup: *


I didn't catch that. I've never heard of them. so does it make any power? did you have to send your ECU in or did they flash it on the car?


----------



## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

31st330i said:


> *
> I've never heard of them.*


If I'm not mistaken, Nowack is famous for their normally-aspirated, huge-horsepower tuning.

kurt


----------



## Cal (Jan 4, 2002)

If I had to chose a software download again, I would go for the shark injector instead of the Dinan due to all the good reviews I've heard from owners. However, either of those will increase your 323s power, especially above 4K rpm. 

Looking at the dyno graphs for the shark and the dinan software, it doesn't look like the shark provides that much more power, if any, over the Dinan software (for the 323 at least). Both show that it is only above 4K that the increases start to become more noticeable, and the shark might put several more horses over the Dinan. I don't know...I currently have the Dinan, and by looking at the dynos, it doesn't look like it would be worth another $350 to upgrade to the shark. However, if you don't have either, then maybe just go with the shark.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Munich (Jun 29, 2002)

31st330i said:


> *
> 
> I didn't catch that. I've never heard of them. so does it make any power? did you have to send your ECU in or did they flash it on the car? *


Check this out: www.nowack-tuning.de , and yes I had to send the ECU, they would do in the car if the car were in Germany.


----------



## Magna (Jan 4, 2002)

*didn't think engine software would be this complex*

just read that i would need a battery charger when i install the Shark because it needs a constant flow of charge (or something to the effect)--another hassle.

31st330i: perhaps more FUD, the dinan rep. also said that often times when a car comes in for service it's because of a software issue and if someone bought the Shark they would unflash (to preserve warranty) when bringing it in for service, thus the tech would not find the software problem. whereas with the dinan upgrade, the tech would see the software problem.

reading all these posts i am getting a little paranoid, that the benefits may not be worth the risks. i am feeling like i am brainwashing the car, although i believe there's room for improvement in the software. i believe steve dinan when he's says the bmw wrote their software with a conservative bias with a focus on emissions and fuel economy, while the performance software (i.e. Shark and dinan) is written with a performance bias.

the dinan rep. did say that once you bought the software and if bmw overwrote it you could have it installed again without paying $399, but you might have to pay for the labor.


----------



## Munich (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: didn't think engine software would be this complex*



Magna said:


> *just read that i would need a battery charger when i install the Shark because it needs a constant flow of charge (or something to the effect)--another hassle.
> 
> 31st330i: perhaps more FUD, the dinan rep. also said that often times when a car comes in for service it's because of a software issue and if someone bought the Shark they would unflash (to preserve warranty) when bringing it in for service, thus the tech would not find the software problem. whereas with the dinan upgrade, the tech would see the software problem.
> 
> ...


Magna, upgrade it man, it is not a hassle as it seems, and you will enjoy more of your driving experience.

:thumbup:


----------



## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

ride365 said:


> *
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, Nowack is famous for their normally-aspirated, huge-horsepower tuning.
> 
> kurt *


Yeah, they made that M5 with the 2 huge air intakes in the air dam. :yikes:


----------



## 31st330i (Jan 11, 2002)

*Re: didn't think engine software would be this complex*



Magna said:


> *31st330i: perhaps more FUD, the dinan rep. also said that often times when a car comes in for service it's because of a software issue and if someone bought the Shark they would unflash (to preserve warranty) when bringing it in for service, thus the tech would not find the software problem. whereas with the dinan upgrade, the tech would see the software problem.
> 
> reading all these posts i am getting a little paranoid, that the benefits may not be worth the risks. i am feeling like i am brainwashing the car, although i believe there's room for improvement in the software. i believe steve dinan when he's says the bmw wrote their software with a conservative bias with a focus on emissions and fuel economy, while the performance software (i.e. Shark and dinan) is written with a performance bias.
> 
> the dinan rep. did say that once you bought the software and if bmw overwrote it you could have it installed again without paying $399, but you might have to pay for the labor. *


it does sound like FUD to me. based on my OWN experience at the BMW dealer, I've never had any software related problems and my file over there is very thick (have been there a number of times for numerous repairs)! if there was a software problem with the confori, you'd be calling them anyway, not BMW.

I have not seen many complaints about drivability at all or even smog related issues. these are the kinds of things that would warrant a software update.

back when I had the Dinan software and wanted to get it over written without paying, I asked the dealer about this. they said that there hadn't even been any software updates at the time and that they weren't very common anyway (it's not like video card driver updates on your PC or DAT file updates for your antivirus software). even if there was an update.... with the Dinan, there's a sticker on the port stating not to flash the software but rather to contact Dinan regarding the update. if they overwrite your conforti software, simply break out the shark injecter and squirt it back in.

yes, the shark requires an external power source but they are cheap and are still useful when you are done. furthermore, you can rent one or borrow one. they're not even that expensive to begin with. don't let that be an obstical.

remember... the Dinan salesman is well.... a salesman. treat anything that comes out of his mouth with skepticism.


----------

