# 325i versus 2005 Volvo S40 T5 6spd



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Well, I don't think you'd be served badly by either car. I know which one I prefer, but your back-to-back tests should tell you a lot.

Keep us posted. :thumbup:


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I love the look of the new S40 T5, very Touring Car, and a nice interior, though the 325i sport has better seats and shifter.
I really wanted to like the car, cause I'd love to Euro Deliver an AWD T5, but it's just not a driver's car. It's way too quiet, and you can't feel anything through the seats, pedals or steering wheel. The steering itself was very good, just has no feedback. The leather is also not that great, hard to believe it's Scandanavian, feels more like an Acura. Anyway, very disappointing for me, but then even an E46 325i is not really sporty enough for my taste.


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## GD (Dec 26, 2003)

That Volvo event at FedEx field was great. I couldn't believe that they brought the 6 speeds.I wish BMW would put on something like that.


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## Jim H (Feb 9, 2004)

If I was only looking for one car to be my perfect car, then I might opt for a 330 or maybe something else entirely. But since I have my TR6 PI for my top down, racing around the hills, I'm looking for something more practical, but still fun to drive. Before the S40 T5 entered the picture, the 325i seemed like an ideal choice. Just a really balanced car. The only things bugging me were the fact that it'll be replaced soon after I take redelivery, and the PRACTICAL side of RWD--possibly having to buy winter tires and wheels, and having to store them in my small garage. On the other hand, one of the Volvo reps mentioned that the T5 with 18" wheels and summer tires would need winter tires too--FWD might help a little, but it would still be slip sliding all over in snow. I had a CRX Si back in the day with summer tires, and man it did not like snow!


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Yeah, I'd agree with needing snow tires on *any* car that came with performance tires standard. I've had Toyotas and Hondas too that with agressive tires just get stopped dead by 1/4-inch of snow. Well, maybe not that bad, but they are next to useless.

The Volvo will be just as bad... especially in T5 form. Heck, even AWD Audi TT's are bad on the wrong tires.

If you drive in snow, then snow tires are your best bet.

And a snow-tire equipped RWD car really doesn't give up much to an FWD car that's also on snows.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Jim H said:


> I agree with you on many points, although I would like to point out that the new S40 is being praised for great steering, certainly the best ever from Volvo (might not beat the e46, but still excellent). I don't like the A4 b/c it's under-powered (and a 4-cyl) unless you get 3.0, but then it's out of my price range. I think the G35 is just ugly, no matter how good a car it is. I found the TSX to be nice but no personality, whjile the Mazda 6 had a little more personality with not so nice interior quality.
> .


I should drive the S40 before I say anything because if your saying it's getting praised for it's steering then Volvo must have done this one right.

I will try to test drive one soon to find out for myself. Meanwhile I think Volvo did an excellent job on it, I saw it at the NY Auto show and it is a real beauty.

At this point in time I wouldn't go for the E46 because the redeisgn is around the corner and after owning 2 of them I guess I am kind of bias as I am kinda tired by it's looks though the feel of the 'drive' is great !!

BTW you say your getting a 2005 ... I thought the new 3er was out for MY2005 :dunno:


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

I would get the last year of a model run way before I would get the first year of a model run every time. I would never buy a first year car, not even a Volvo.

The girl drives a V70 - it's great for what it is. It's a large vehicle that will hold a TON of ****, haul the dogs around and get from point a to point b. It is not about driving. In fact, it doesn't really give a driving experience. It's more like a driving vacuum. I know the S40 will be different, but it will still be a Ford.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

rwg said:


> In fact, it doesn't really give a driving experience. It's more like a driving vacuum. I know the S40 will be different, but it will still be a Ford.


I own 3 fords and have had many other brand cars . .. I gotta tell you ... these Fords are awesome cars !!!


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

rwg said:


> I would get the last year of a model run way before I would get the first year of a model run every time. I would never buy a first year car, not even a Volvo.
> 
> The girl drives a V70 - it's great for what it is. It's a large vehicle that will hold a TON of ****, haul the dogs around and get from point a to point b. It is not about driving. In fact, it doesn't really give a driving experience. It's more like a driving vacuum. I know the S40 will be different, but it will still be a Ford.


From what I"ve read (from many different sources), the s40 is a completely different animal in many ways compared to the 60/70/80. Ford (atleast in Europe) and Mazda are both known for being able to produce good handling, good "feeling" cars-- and the fact that this Volvo has some DNA from these 2 can only be a good thing in my mind. I actually think its a great combination-- Scandinavian design, comfort and safety coupled with Japanese quality (hopefully), and Ford (europe) handling. Even the last generation Focus (our current Focus) was praised both here and in Europe for being the best handling hatch.


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## Jim H (Feb 9, 2004)

AF-RX8 said:


> BTW you say your getting a 2005 ... I thought the new 3er was out for MY2005 :dunno:


Every BMW rep I've talked to says they'll be building and selling MY 2005 e46s this fall, and at the minimum it won't be til calendar year 2005 that e90s come out. That said, I wouldn't put it past all of them to be wrong. I figure I'll know for sure by the time I have to place the ED order this summer.

Also, about the steering and such...Volvo is getting praise for having done this car "right". It might not be equal to BMW, but I think it has its own good qualities.


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## ccha (Dec 30, 2002)

tgravo2 said:


> FWD so I wouldn't buy it. Also I've never sat in one, but I think the S40 is considerably smaller than the 325i. I think it's a modified Focus chassis  I'm not positive on this, just a thought.


I've sat in the new S40. The cabin is about as big as the 3 series sedans. One funny thing that I have to mention is the fact that the center console is "hollow". The driver could reach under the center console and touch the passenger's leg (and vice versa).


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## ccha (Dec 30, 2002)

Jim H said:


> So my new car has to be able to get me around all year round. I have winter tires now for my e30 and it's a pain to switch, and I hate not having my nice wheels on for the winter. I know I can do the same for an e46, but it IS an added expense and hassle.
> The key aspects to my comparison are: Do I want to opt for FWD or AWD over RWD because it helps for winter driving? Do I want to get a new model that is more fresh than the e46?
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

robg said:


> Even the last generation Focus (our current Focus) was praised both here and in Europe for being the best handling hatch.


Yeah, but everyone knows the best handling hatch sold in the U.S. is the RSX.


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## 325SMG (Jan 11, 2004)

I just bought a 325i, my previous car being a 1998 Volvo S70. The only thing I really miss about it is the seats. Much more comfortable than the BMW (sport seats). I think you should definitely sit in both cars, maybe take each one for a drive, and concentrate on how comfortable you are in the BMW seat compared to the Volvo's. If the BMW seat is ok with you, then I'd still go for the Bimmer.


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## Jim H (Feb 9, 2004)

ccha said:


> The debate of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD in snow has been beaten to death on this board and on many others. One point that you can not argue is the fact that winter/snow tires are the best solution, no mater what drivetrain. For my money, for my safety and the safety of the people who ride with me, I believe in a set of dedicated winter wheels. Get a set no matter which car you pick.
> 
> Also, I've been reading all your replies. It sounds like you are a) really want the Volvo and b) trying real hard to talk yourself out of the BMW. There's nothing wrong with that. Get what you want.


CCHA, very well put on the winter tires issue. Hadn't really thought of it that way. I'd been thinking more in terms of "what can I get away with?", which probably is a bad way to go.

Also, I'm not trying to talk myself in our out of the BMW. My posts here have been playing a little devil's advocate because I know most people here, myself included, would be quick to just say "go for the BMW!" I wanted to hear REASONS why people say that.

Thanks for the good response... 
-Jim


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## mickey513 (Jun 12, 2003)

I got a chance to test drive both a Volvo T5 in automatic and 6-speed last month at the Volvo event in Alameda, CA. The Volvo T5 isn't a bad car but it's a FWD :thumbdwn:, plus the interior was pretty cramp for a 4-door. The handling and acceleration weren't too bad but at the end of the day, I still take a 325 over it.

One more thing, be careful with Volvo resale value. Something you should considered.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

mickey513 said:


> I got a chance to test drive both a Volvo T5 in automatic and 6-speed last month at the Volvo event in Alameda, CA. The Volvo T5 isn't a bad car but it's a FWD :thumbdwn:, plus the interior was pretty cramp for a 4-door. The handling and acceleration weren't too bad but at the end of the day, I still take a 325 over it.
> 
> One more thing, be careful with Volvo resale value. Something you should considered.


About the interior, I just can't get over the T-shaped shiny silver spaceship looking center console. I am surprised that no one else has brought this up as well....


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## rdollie (Aug 6, 2003)

Believe me, the steering on the T5 (only) is PHENOMENAL. I flogged the T5 6-speed on the autocross course at El Toro and it is EASILY the best steering system I've sampled (better than M3, S4, S60R.) It still doesn't have the tactile sense through the wheel like an e36 M3 but NOTHING responds as instantly and precisely as the electronically driven steering system that's unique to the T5 trim. I pushed the car in the corners and was surprised how easily it oversteered - not what you expect from a FWD car (the e46 by comparison has more understeer dialed in.) Coming in just over the 3,000 lb mark the car was quite tossable and the optional 445-watt Dolby Pro II audio system was EASILY better than any Logic7, Mark Levinson, or Dolby Pro Surround system I've heard in a car.

Considering the T5 will probably sell for less than $25k through Overseas Delivery (under $27k through the dealership BEFORE the discounting starts) and can be easily chipped it's a pretty interesting option in this price range.

The S40R is going to really challenge cars in the $30k range.



AF-RX8 said:


> I should drive the S40 before I say anything because if your saying it's getting praised for it's steering then Volvo must have done this one right.
> 
> I will try to test drive one soon to find out for myself. Meanwhile I think Volvo did an excellent job on it, I saw it at the NY Auto show and it is a real beauty.
> 
> ...


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

rdollie said:


> Believe me, the steering on the T5 (only) is PHENOMENAL. I flogged the T5 6-speed on the autocross course at El Toro and it is EASILY the best steering system I've sampled (better than M3, S4, S60R.) It still doesn't have the tactile sense through the wheel like an e36 M3 but NOTHING responds as instantly and precisely as the electronically driven steering system that's unique to the T5 trim. I pushed the car in the corners and was surprised how easily it oversteered - not what you expect from a FWD car (the e46 by comparison has more understeer dialed in.) Coming in just over the 3,000 lb mark the car was quite tossable and the optional 445-watt Dolby Pro II audio system was EASILY better than any Logic7, Mark Levinson, or Dolby Pro Surround system I've heard in a car.
> 
> Considering the T5 will probably sell for less than $25k through Overseas Delivery (under $27k through the dealership BEFORE the discounting starts) and can be easily chipped it's a pretty interesting option in this price range.
> 
> The S40R is going to really challenge cars in the $30k range.


I think you need to get out more, I did the Volvo event too, and the steering is good, but has no feel at all, like a video game. I found the car kind of blah, and the stereo is good, but not worth raving about - you sure you don't work for Volvo?


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## rdollie (Aug 6, 2003)

Hmmm...yeah, pretty sure but I wouldn't mind working for Ford's PAG unit (I'm eyeing a AMV8 and an employee discount would go a long way...)

More to the point, I own and or autocross these cars (SCCA Solo2). I stand by my statement and also agree (and have previously stated) the steering feel does not compare but the precision and accuracy are UNPARALLED - PERIOD. Conventional steering systems suffer and lag behind in the the serious twisties as boost pressure fluctuates. The S40 T5 doesn't have this problem (I suspect the new active steering on the 5 might do as well but I haven't pushed one hard enough yet to know.)

Thanks.

-rollie
[email protected]



Dawg90 said:


> I think you need to get out more, I did the Volvo event too, and the steering is good, but has no feel at all, like a video game. I found the car kind of blah, and the stereo is good, but not worth raving about - you sure you don't work for Volvo?


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## Jim H (Feb 9, 2004)

rdollie said:


> Hmmm...yeah, pretty sure but I wouldn't mind working for Ford's PAG unit (I'm eyeing a AMV8 and an employee discount would go a long way...)
> 
> More to the point, I own and or autocross these cars (SCCA Solo2). I stand by my statement and also agree (and have previously stated) the steering feel does not compare but the precision and accuracy are UNPARALLED - PERIOD. Conventional steering systems suffer and lag behind in the the serious twisties as boost pressure fluctuates. The S40 T5 doesn't have this problem (I suspect the new active steering on the 5 might do as well but I haven't pushed one hard enough yet to know.)
> 
> ...


I have not autocrossed, but as far as my test drives go, I can agree for the most part. The T5's steering felt very quick to respond. But as previously stated, it didn't have the feel of the BMWs steering. As time goes by, I'm no closer to a decision on these cars. I think they both have a lot of positives, and neither is the "perfect" car for me. So now I'm just trying to figure out which one I like the most.


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## Buff_AGM (Sep 25, 2002)

I too have driven the S40 T5, having spent the better part of yesterday at the Volvo event tracking both the 2.4 and T5. I acutally had more fun driving the 2.4, it felt more similar to a 325i while the T5 had way too much torque to power out of turns smoothly. Throughout the course, I had the feeling that I was fighting with the car for control, a feeling totally different what you get in a 3 series. The interior also seemed a bit gimmicky, though I must say the special cloth seats on the T6 were amazing, much better than either leather or regular cloth in terms of both luxury and performance IMO. The steering is decent I guess as far a precision, but offers very little feel. Overall, nice and most importantly, safe cars, but the driving experience is no match for any BMW I've driven.


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## Jim H (Feb 9, 2004)

There are those who argue that the T5 6spd will end up being a lot faster than a 325i, almost as quick as a 330 (non-ZHP). I don't know how it will really pan out. However, I'm fine with the T5 being a tad faster than the 325i, so long as the overall handling and performance outweigh that one aspect. Not really sure what my point is...I just want to really love my new car when I get it...


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## rdollie (Aug 6, 2003)

Volvo's published number for the S40 T5 manual (not sure if it was for the 5-speed manual or 6-speed manual) is 6.7 seconds. The best published number I've seen for the car so far by a reviewer is 6.3 seconds. It sounds like in the acceleration department it is a good match for the 330 not the 325.


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## Jim H (Feb 9, 2004)

rdollie said:


> Volvo's published number for the S40 T5 manual (not sure if it was for the 5-speed manual or 6-speed manual) is 6.7 seconds. The best published number I've seen for the car so far by a reviewer is 6.3 seconds. It sounds like in the acceleration department it is a good match for the 330 not the 325.


True, but the price is closer to the 325i, and acceleration is not all there is to it. The 325i will out-handle it and isn't much slower in real world driving (manual vs. manual).


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

tgravo2 said:


> FWD so I wouldn't buy it. Also I've never sat in one, but I think the S40 is considerably smaller than the 325i. I think it's a modified Focus chassis  I'm not positive on this, just a thought.


 Well, the Focus is the only car you sell that I'd consider buying.

(For everyone else, that means it's the only Ford badged product I'd consider.)


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I drove the T5 at the event, and it's very fast, definitely faster than a 325i. But it did the bunny hop for the first 40 feet when I launched it hard. I'll happily trade some power for rear drive.


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