# During/after Fishtailing What Are You Supposed To Do?



## 330ciPfmcePkg05 (Jan 17, 2005)

When there is a lot of snow on the ground, and I take a left or right turn in my 2005 330ci ZHP obviously my car fishtails many times...at this point can anyone please explain to me what I am supposed to do..during and after the fishtail...am I supposed to brake? turn the wheel the opposite way? gas it up? please help me so i dont make a mistake and run my car into another car coming in the opposite direction, a telephone pole, or tree. Thanks.


----------



## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Gently ease off the throttle. If it is severe, you may need to countersteer a little bit to help get everything straightened out. Give too much, and you'll keep sending your tail in opposite directions.


----------



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Steer into the spin and lift throttle. (This means that if the tail is going left, you need to steer left.)

Be aware that you may need to re-apply throttle to stabilize the car.

If you're on summer tires, don't be yet another BMW driver that everyone else laughs at because you're stuck.

I'd recommend finding an empty parking lot to practice this in. I'd also recommend that you modulate your throttle inputs better.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

If your good... steer into the spin and keep your foot in the throttle.


----------



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> If your good... steer into the spin and keep your foot in the throttle.


 :thumbup: Then again if your good, your only fishtailing on purpose.


----------



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

misterlance said:


> :thumbup: Then again if your good, your only fishtailing on purpose.


 Uh.

I guess Schumacher's a ****ty driver, then.


----------



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Uh.
> 
> I guess Schumacher's a ****ty driver, then.


Schue is haulin azz (on purpose). Its frickin simple dude. lose traction = lift off throttle. Steering and braking as well until control is acheived.


----------



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

misterlance said:


> Schue is haulin azz (on purpose). Its frickin simple dude. lose traction = lift off throttle. Steering and braking as well until control is acheived.


 And it's not nearly as simple as you'd apparently like to think it is.


----------



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And it's not nearly as simple as you'd apparently like to think it is.


Are you still talking about Schumacher?

Alright, Do you think Schuey fishtails his personal Ferrari around Germany on accident? Or that those spinouts or fishtailing (In an F1 race) are caused by error and not by aggressive driving?

Whatever, you can think your M3 is an F1 car if you like.

All Im saying is, If SOMEONE is not driving AGGRESSIVELY, it is EASY to lift throttle to regain control of a fishtail slide.

:tsk:


----------



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> I'd recommend finding an empty parking lot to practice this in.


 :stupid:

You'll understand how the car will react so you won't be suprised when it starts to step out on you.


----------



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

misterlance said:


> Are you still talking about Schumacher?
> 
> Alright, Do you think Schuey fishtails his personal Ferrari around Germany on accident? Or that those spinouts or fishtailing (In an F1 race) are caused by error and not by aggressive driving?
> 
> ...


 My point was actually that there are plenty of times when it is better to manage the car with steering inputs and NOT lift throttle as a first response. This applies especially strongly to higher speed driving, where lifting throttle when the tail is out can be fatal.

I don't see any reason to train in a dangerous reflex, particularly when we're talking about a guy who clearly has zero experience in a RWD car.


----------



## wheel-man (Sep 28, 2004)

shuey is a great driver, no doubt...

but, i think all the greats of f1 pale to the greats of wrc... Petter Solberg, Tommi Makinen, etc...

take a page from the guys who control slide to beat the clock, turn into the direction of the spin... ease of the accelerator, don't brake...

if you fishtail and still have traction, opposite lock.

remember, tires do one of their three jobs well at a time, i.e. maintaining sufficient contact friction... turn, accelerate, decelerate. when losing control, turning the wheels in the direction of the spin is key to try to have the tires hook-up with the surface and establish friction.

braking or accelerating, while turning will only prolong the loss of traction.

my 3.4cents


----------



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> My point was actually that there are plenty of times when it is better to manage the car with steering inputs and NOT lift throttle as a first response. This applies especially strongly to higher speed driving, where lifting throttle when the tail is out can be fatal.
> 
> I don't see any reason to train in a dangerous reflex, particularly when we're talking about a guy who clearly has zero experience in a RWD car.


And what Im saying is to tell a novice to stay on the throttle when fishtailing around a corner may not be the best advice either. As Im sure you are aware, throttle is a component of steering.


----------



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Steer into the spin and lift throttle. (This means that if the tail is going left, you need to steer left.)
> 
> I'd recommend finding an empty parking lot to practice this in. I'd also recommend that you modulate your throttle inputs better.


Again, im not really sure what we are arguing about.


----------



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

misterlance said:


> Again, im not really sure what we are arguing about.


 I should have typed "and then lift throttle if necessary."

My apologies for that.


----------



## wag-zhp (Apr 8, 2004)

For God sakes, stop driving in the snow and ice until you get some all season or winter/snow tires on that car! The ZHP and ZSP equiped cars come with summer tires. Summer tires turn into very hard, unsticky, tires when the temperature drops below 40 degrees. Summer tires in the winter is like driving on ball bearings.

You need to take a driving course if you are asking how to control fishtailing.

The crash course (no pun intended) goes like this... Never hit the brakes as the 1st course of action when fishtailing. Step one, let up on the gas. (If you're trying to maintain speed, perhaps not all the way, but enough to allow the rear tires to get their grip on the road again.) Step two, look in the direction that you want to go, not at what you want to avoid hitting. Step three, steer in the direction that you are looking, which should be the direction that you what to go, which should also be the direction that the rear end is sliding toward. The trick to controlling a car on ice and snow is to do everything with the steering wheel smoothly, and treat the pedals like there are eggs on them. Try not to over correct as you get the slide under control, which is easier said than done.

Like others have said, go to an empty, snow covered, parking lot and practice.

Oh yeah, don't try to drive with summer tires on a high performance car in the winter.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

It all comes down to feel and knowing the limits of your car, you can stay in throttle and turn into the spin, but you walk a fine line between a controlled slide and having the rear come around and a nasty spin out. Whatever you do don't panic and jump off the throttle and apply the brakes.


----------



## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

wag-zhp said:


> Summer tires turn into very hard, unsticky, tires when the temperature drops below 40 degrees. Summer tires in the winter is like driving on ball bearings.
> ...
> Oh yeah, don't try to drive with summer tires on a high performance car in the winter.


For NorCal winters (i.e. no snow, daily highs between 40s and 60s, nights 30s to 50s), do you still stick with summer tires or do you switch?


----------



## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

For countersteering, a more intuitive and easier thing to remember to do instead of "turning into the slide" is to look at where you want to go. Your hands will do the right thing with the steering wheel. For fishtailing, keep looking down the road where you car would be headed if you weren't fishtailing.

This is also why if you want to avoid an object on the freeway, look at the empty space instead of staring at the thing you don't want to hit. Looking at the thing you don't want to hit is the surest way of hitting it. And no, covering your eyes with your hands doesn't count!  (Though it's happened at a driving school, much to the consternation of the instructor.)

--Andre


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Driving school with skidpad.

Repeat.

You can read what you're supposed to do all day. Until you've done it a few times under controlled conditions, you won't be able to automatically do the right thing when it happens on the street.


----------



## obmd1 (Jan 17, 2005)

and to avoid the tail coming loose when starting from a dead stop, start in second gear....


----------



## gmlav8r (May 28, 2003)

Go to a driving school that uses rear wheel drive cars.....

Such as the BMW Performance Center in South Carolina. They got a skid pad. You will get a lot of time on it with DSC on and DSC off.


Everything is covered in snow here.:thumbdwn:


----------



## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

And be steady. The worst thing you can do in the snow is abrupt input.

Alex


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

gmlav8r said:


> Go to a driving school that uses rear wheel drive cars.....


The best is to go to one that lets you use your own car.


----------



## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

Do one of these:










Alex


----------



## wag-zhp (Apr 8, 2004)

FenPhen said:


> For NorCal winters (i.e. no snow, daily highs between 40s and 60s, nights 30s to 50s), do you still stick with summer tires or do you switch?


Here in NorCal we are fortunate enough to not need to change tires for the season, but that is said with reservations. I take an assesment of the condidtions and drive accordingly. If the temp is below 50 I stay pretty close to the speed limits and allow more room between other cars. If the temp is below 40 I drive like a little old lady and watch my mirrors for cars approching rapidly. If the situation allows I'll speed up a little to reduce the speed differential between me and the car that's approaching from behind.

If the temp drops too low for too many days in a row I try to borrow my mother-in-laws car, which has all seasons on it, if she doesn't need to run any errands. Fortunately, we don't get any of that slippery white stuff on the roads here in the Sacramento area. It's only been really cold (below 32) here a few times in the eight years I've lived here. Now where I grew up, in Michigan, that was a different story....


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I've always heard that you apply more throttle, not lift throttle, if fishtailing in a RWD car. I thought lift throttle was for non-RWD cars... :dunno: 

Also, I don't get this "steer where you want to go, not what you're trying to avoid hitting." If you're turning left and you fishtail, the rear slides to the right more than you'd want. That means you'll start looking more to the left of the lane you wanted to be in. Makes sense that you'd steer where you want to go, because you'd have to turn the wheel right. But what you want to avoid hitting is also on the right...


----------



## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

swchang said:


> Also, I don't get this "steer where you want to go, not what you're trying to avoid hitting." If you're turning left and you fishtail, the rear slides to the right more than you'd want. That means you'll start looking more to the left of the lane you wanted to be in. Makes sense that you'd steer where you want to go, because you'd have to turn the wheel right. But what you want to avoid hitting is also on the right...


They didn't say "think about where you want to go," cause you'd probably end up with the analysis above. :rofl:

Move your eyeballs to *look* at where you *want to go* (your correct destination); do not look at the object you're avoiding. Your hands will tend to steer you toward where you're looking (hand-eye coordination). The second part about avoiding an object applies to an obstacle that's in front of you when you are travelling toward it, I think.

In an oversteer situation like the one above, you would look to your right and counter-steer right.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Lifting is not always a great idea if you lose rear traction. Why? Because lifting shifts weight forward lowering weight on the rear tires, which need MORE traction, not less. It really dependson on what you did to fishtail. If yo udid it with too much power, yes, you have to reduce power. If you did it by lifitng, you need to add power.

In the case of too much power causes the rear to move out, more of a feathering to slightly reduce power. And as you recover you do need to get some of that power back in.

If you induced fishtailing by lifting in a turn, to recover you have to add power to shift weight rearward for traction. If you lift more, you will make things worse.

The MOST important part of dealing with fishtailing is to keep your eye looking down the ropad the way you want to go. This coupled with proper hand position (9 - 3 perferably) will cause you bady to react automaticlly to steer in the proper direction.

Lastly, go get some high performance driving instruction.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Pinecone said:


> Lifting is not always a great idea if you lose rear traction. Why? Because lifting shifts weight forward lowering weight on the rear tires, which need MORE traction, not less. It really dependson on what you did to fishtail. If yo udid it with too much power, yes, you have to reduce power. If you did it by lifitng, you need to add power.
> 
> In the case of too much power causes the rear to move out, more of a feathering to slightly reduce power. And as you recover you do need to get some of that power back in.
> 
> ...


I understand losing the rear by lifting, but how do you do it by giving too much power? I know the standard 'fest response is first going to be, "If you don't know, then you're not driving it hard enough." Okay, so that out of the way...


----------



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

swchang said:


> I understand losing the rear by lifting, but how do you do it by giving too much power? I know the standard 'fest response is first going to be, "If you don't know, then you're not driving it hard enough." Okay, so that out of the way...


Well the start of this thread was based on snow driving, and fishtailing around corners. IMO at slower speeds is when your gonna fishtail from over throttle...in which case coming off throttle or feathering is most logical approach. At high speeds IMO is where your gonna lose the rear end from lack of throttle. Anyway I agree the topic is almost moot. Without the experience or instruction, none of this will probably make any sense.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

misterlance said:


> Well the start of this thread was based on snow driving, and fishtailing around corners. IMO at slower speeds is when your gonna fishtail from over throttle...in which case coming off throttle or feathering is most logical approach. At high speeds IMO is where your gonna lose the rear end from lack of throttle. Anyway I agree the topic is almost moot. Without the experience or instruction, none of this will probably make any sense.


Interesting. Seems counterintuitive.


----------



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

swchang said:


> Interesting. Seems counterintuitive.


hmmm, I had to look it up to really understand your statement.

Something is *counter-intuitive * if it does not seem likely to be true using the tool of human intuition or "gut-feeling" to perceive reality.

The phrase is most often used to describe bits of scientifically-discovered, objective truth that, for one reason or another, our so-called "right brain", intuition, emotions, and the sum of our cognitive processes outside of deductive rationality interpret as 'false' or 'wrong.'

Of course, the subjective nature of intuition make it impossible to say with any objective accuracy what is counter-intuitive -- what is counter-inuitive for one may very well not be for another, since the sources of intuitive 'knowledge' are very much open to debate and epistemological inquiry.

I suppose thats why no matter how driving is explained, you can only learn by doing it and being trained.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

misterlance said:


> hmmm, I had to look it up to really understand your statement.
> 
> Something is *counter-intuitive * if it does not seem likely to be true using the tool of human intuition or "gut-feeling" to perceive reality.
> 
> ...


Are you saying you looked up the meaning of counterintuitive and then used your acquired knowledge and skills of deduction to intuit that saying "it's counterintuitive" logically makes no sense when speaking of a group of disparate peoples?

That seems almost counterintuitive to me. :stickpoke


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> If your good... steer into the spin and keep your foot in the throttle.


 :supdude: :supdude: :bigpimp:


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

swchang said:


> I've always heard that you apply more throttle, not lift throttle, if fishtailing in a RWD car. I thought lift throttle was for non-RWD cars... :dunno:
> 
> Also, I don't get this "steer where you want to go, not what you're trying to avoid hitting." If you're turning left and you fishtail, the rear slides to the right more than you'd want. That means you'll start looking more to the left of the lane you wanted to be in. Makes sense that you'd steer where you want to go, because you'd have to turn the wheel right. But what you want to avoid hitting is also on the right...


Driving school, take some, you'll get it. :dunno:

Your hands WILL follow your eyes. Same reason why people who are scared of the walls usually end up stuffing themselves and the cars into the wall. :rofl:


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

misterlance said:


> Well the start of this thread was based on snow driving, and fishtailing around corners. IMO at slower speeds is when your gonna fishtail from over throttle...in which case coming off throttle or feathering is most logical approach. At high speeds IMO is where your gonna lose the rear end from lack of throttle. Anyway I agree the topic is almost moot. Without the experience or instruction, none of this will probably make any sense.


Having lived in St. Louis for four frigid cold arse years in college, snow driving is like driving in the rain with too much throttle all the time. :bigpimp:

I agree that without proper traing, none of this theory stuff will save you anyway. Modding the driver is way better on your ROI than modding the car. The car is already way mroe talented than most drivers who don't even have RWD 101 down. :tsk:

It's going to rain tomorrow, sideways time! :drive:


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

obmd1 said:


> and to avoid the tail coming loose when starting from a dead stop, start in second gear....


Axle hop rocks! :supdude:

Going sideways from a standstill, even better. :thumbup: :bigpimp:


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Scenario 1: You are driving along, start into a curve and realize you are going too fast. So you lift. Since you really ARE going to fast, weights shifts forward, and the rear comes around. Can be dry, wet or on snow. If you lift more, you shift more weight forward and you have less rear traction and less chance of recovering. Recovery is put some power on, and steer the car where you want it to go. If you are REALLY going way to fast, you are SOL no matter what, it becomes a matter of going off forwards or backwards.

Scenario 2: You enter a turn and before you get straight you punch the throttle a bit too much. Rear comes around. In this case you already have too much power for the rear tractiopn, so you have to feather the throttle to regain rear traction. If you lift too much, you go from Scenario 2 to Scenario 1 immediately and the rear still comes around. Again steer where you want to go.

The thing with the eyes is, if you stare at the wall, you will hit the wall. You want to look at the road right next to the wall. In a skid the normal person will continue to look over the hood, but the hood it no longer pointing down the road, it is pointing off the road into the ditch. And that is where you will end up. You have to turn your head to look down the road in the direction you want to go. Your hands will naturally follow in the proper direction. Magic. 

Watch the in car cameras of race drivers if they spin, their eyes and head will move to look down the road, even turning around as far as possible if they spin all the way around.


----------



## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

Pinecone said:


> The thing with the eyes is, if you stare at the wall, you will hit the wall.


I had an experience autocrossing that is proof of that. I came into the finish box way too fast, and fixated on the timing light in order to avoid nailing it. I stared so intently at it that I ended up flattening it.

And I cost everyone a run that day as they spent what seemed like an eternity repairing it....

Alex


----------

