# Would you still buy a BMW if only tranny was auto?



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Cowboy Bebop said:


> looking at future possibilities, the real question is what car will you purchase when ONLY Auto Trannys are offered by ALL manufacturers... and that day will come.
> 
> would you still prefer a chevy to a BMW?


Nah...

I'd still be driving my 30 year old BMW with a stick.


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

The argument about urban driving is so stale. I have lived/commuted in Houston all of my adult life, and pretty much all of my vehicles have been manual. It's just not that hard unless I'm trying to eat/talk on the phone/drink/shave/etc instead of just driving.


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

mtbscott said:


> The argument about urban driving is so stale. I have lived/commuted in Houston all of my adult life, and pretty much all of my vehicles have been manual. It's just not that hard unless I'm trying to eat/talk on the phone/drink/shave/etc instead of just driving.


 :stupid:

Due to traffic changes around here, it now takes me 40min to travel the 6~8 miles to work. I am in stop/go/creep traffic for at least 30 of those 40 minutes. I just put my car in 1st, let out the clutch, and it creeps along nicely at speeds below what the speedo will register.


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

mtbscott said:


> The argument about urban driving is so stale. I have lived/commuted in Houston all of my adult life, and pretty much all of my vehicles have been manual. It's just not that hard unless I'm trying to eat/talk on the phone/drink/shave/etc instead of just driving.


 :stupid:

I can drink my coffee/water and talk on my phone via the bluetooth (that's about where I draw the line) just fine in heavy traffic with my 6-speed. I actually prefer the manual in traffic due to the engine braking.

Unless you have some physical disability, I don't see much point in buying an automatic for most of the cars that BMW offers. If you go with one of the sportier models, you lose an element of control with the automatic. If you don't need that level of control, why buy a BMW? If you go with a model with a little less power (Z4 2.5, 325, etc.), you're not maximizing power with an automatic. IMO, the only BMW model an automatic makes sense in is the 7 series (and maybe some of the 5ers). That being said, obviously it's a matter of personal preference.

To answer the original poster's question, my next BMW will probably be the E90 M3. Would I buy one without a manual transmission? Whether I buy a true manual depends on how good the SMG is, but if I had to buy it with an automatic, I'd look elsewhere.


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## 2008-130ci (Oct 12, 2005)

dwette said:


> Downshifting is like braking...best to get it all done in a straight line (i.e. before you turn in). If you are at the limits of tire grip you don't want anything upsetting the car and affecting your lateral traction. It could shift the steering from neutral to oversteer.


For everyday driving yes... but there are times (when racing) that is not true. See here how to prevent upsetting the car.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

2008-130ci said:


> For everyday driving yes... but there are times (when racing) that is not true. See here how to prevent upsetting the car.


For everyday driving it doesn't matter a whole lot one way ot the other unless you're driving in slippery conditions, becuase you're generally not driving the car at anywhere near its limits.

So the technique you link to may be OK for experienced drivers at the track. I have SMG II which makes rev matching downshifts easy, but my track instructor still tells me not to shift during hard cornering.

What about you experienced trackers out there (Advanced/Instructor run groups). How much are you all shifting during cornering?


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## kyle5574 (Aug 26, 2003)

chuck92103 said:


> Since 80% of the BMW's in the US have auto's, the remaining 20% manuals, of the 20% manuals we could also conclude that approx. 14% of BMW's total US market are customers that would leave if BMW got rid of the manual.


Interesting observation, but, when drawing analogies using this site's population, it's difficult to take into accurate consideration how we're all enthusiasts. I wonder how many BMW drivers are enthusiasts? If we were a more realistic population comprised of a large majority of casual drivers and a small minority of enthusiasts, I bet there'd be a far larger number of people who bought manual transmissions, but aren't passionate about them.

By the way, the reasons I chose BMW are because I want a car that (in order of importance):

has a manual transmission
is RWD with good, optional traction control
has at least 6 cylinders (bonus for inline configuration!)


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

dwette said:


> What about you experienced trackers out there (Advanced/Instructor run groups). How much are you all shifting during cornering?


I NEVER shift mid-turn... bad things can happen. 

I heel-toe all the time... but NEVER mid-turn...


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

2008-130ci said:


> For everyday driving yes... but there are times (when racing) that is not true. See here how to prevent upsetting the car.


I think the article said you should finish the heel-toe downshift before turning, i.e., while in a straight line...


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

Thanks. I didn't read the article (I use SMG so I don't need to heel-toe) but I thought shifting in a turn is never desirable. I don't do it on the track or normal driving on the street.

And it makes sense the article would say to heel-toe downshift before the turn, because you brake before the turn, and you don't need to heel-toe if you aren't braking.


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## E2R41L (Sep 29, 2005)

Steptronic is not that bad for daily use, much more convenient.


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## wag-zhp (Apr 8, 2004)

dwette said:


> For everyday driving it doesn't matter a whole lot one way or the other unless you're driving in slippery conditions, because you're generally not driving the car at anywhere near its limits.
> ...
> What about you experienced trackers out there (Advanced/Instructor run groups). How much are you all shifting during cornering?


I very seldom shift during mid corner on the street in dry conditions, and never shift mid corner on the street in slipery conditions or on the track. Once the tires are at their limit of adhesion I try to avoid any inputs that would upset the balance of the car. Things like sharp throttle lift, heavy throttle application, and gear changes tend to push the rear tires beyond their limit of adhesion and will either induce a fishtail, or if you can't catch the slide, will bring the tail end around. (I hate going into the weeds!!!)

If you are driving an automatic that doesn't allow full controll of when a shift occurs, say for instance in mid corner at the limit of adhesion and you hit the engines redline and it shifts for you, you could end up sideways or in the weeds. This is the main reason why I wouldn't consider an a car with the current form of an automatic transmission. The other is that the manual still offers better performance than the automatic.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Hell. ****ing. no.


:stupid:

Didn't take me long to find a kindred spirit on this thread.

Excuse my French but there is NO F'ING WAY I would be buying this car with an AT. The principle reason I sold my Merc (aside from the fact I was on a Christmas card sending-basis with the shop guys) was that it was not fun to drive.

I want to decide when to shift, up or down. I want to decide when to wind it out, when to pootle along, when to barely keep up with traffic, when to open the sunroof and attempt a double clutch for a tight radius bend (rarely achieved by the way).

I've said this before (and I know its wierd) but to me, my bimmer is the closest modern car I've driven that feels like the Mini. Sharp responsive steering, excellent roadholding and fabulous brakes (ok, so the Mini doesn't have fantastic brakes but its still pretty entertaining to lock them up at 65.)


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## Orangefiv5 (Oct 27, 2005)

It all depends on what you are using the vehicle for. So yes and no.


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## Orangefiv5 (Oct 27, 2005)

yes


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## Orangefiv5 (Oct 27, 2005)

no


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## ktc (Jan 10, 2005)

*Probably not.*

The only time I drove an AT 330 was when the dealer did not have a ZHP on hand for me to try. Both my wife and I felt that there was this strange hesitation on the AT even in normal city driving (not aggressive) conditions -- when we started off on a green light, it's like the first half an inch of gas pedal did nothing, and the car "had to think" before it started. So I felt like I kinda had to stomp on the gas to get it to go.

Luckily my MT 330 doesn't have the same problem. I don't know if it was the specific car or if Steptronic has to "think and learn" a new driver's style, but it was pretty annoying.


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

ktc said:


> The only time I drove an AT 330 was when the dealer did not have a ZHP on hand for me to try. Both my wife and I felt that there was this strange hesitation on the AT even in normal city driving (not aggressive) conditions -- when we started off on a green light, it's like the first half an inch of gas pedal did nothing, and the car "had to think" before it started. So I felt like I kinda had to stomp on the gas to get it to go.
> 
> Luckily my MT 330 doesn't have the same problem. I don't know if it was the specific car or if Steptronic has to "think and learn" a new driver's style, but it was pretty annoying.


What you experienced might have been a combination of the auto tranny and the throttle by wire. I drove a 3.0 X5 as a loaner from the dealer that was the same way, yet an X3 and 325 loaner did not have the same behavior :dunno:


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

wag-zhp said:


> I very seldom shift during mid corner...(I hate going into the weeds!!!)
> 
> If you are driving an automatic that doesn't allow full controll of when a shift occurs, say for instance in mid corner at the limit of adhesion and you hit the engines redline and it shifts for you, you could end up sideways or in the weeds....


I think we are in agreement. The only time I shift mid corner on the street is if I'm making a turn from a dead stop & I put it in second while turning. Otherwise, not at all.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I wonder what percentage of people who said "yes" have driven a manual before.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

dwette said:


> I think we are in agreement. The only time I shift mid corner on the street is if I'm making a turn from a dead stop & I put it in second while turning. Otherwise, not at all.


Yep, me too. I might have to try what the article said about downshifting after a turn when driving gently on the streets, though.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

swchang said:


> Yep, me too. I might have to try what the article said about downshifting after a turn when driving gently on the streets, though.


Since I have SMG, I've been practicing (getting used to) left foot braking, so I can brake while blipping the throttle for a smooth downshift, without heel-toe. I definitely get a better feel of control and power for braking if I can use seperate feet for each pedal. Once I get really comfortable with it I will try it at the track.

As for rev matching, so far it seems downshifts with the SMG at high rev (that you do at the track) are smooth enough without having to blip the throttle. The SMG II software does double clutching and rev matching automatically. For track duty, SMG II really rocks.

The first time I did a DE, it was with a 530i Steptronic (with Dinan tranny SW). Never again. I did auto once in my life and regretted it almost immediately.


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## meyer21 (Oct 26, 2005)

chuck92103 said:


> I agree with Malibu, us city folk need to have our lattes as we drive to work in thick traffic and the clutch is just annoying. Clutches are fine on an open road, where you can get in gear and go, but the constant clutch pushing is a bit much for some of us.


I don't understand this "clutch pedal is too much in traffic" line of reasoning. I'm an urbanite, and average 25 mph on my commute in stop and go traffic. I drive a stick, and wouldn't have it any other way. It gives me something to do just when I'm creeping along in a traffic jam in the AM - otherwise, I'd fall asleep I'd be soooo bored. Besides, in the E90, you can creep along in 1st gear without the car dying all day long. In my opinion, manuals are the MOST fun when you ARE changing gears - who cares what tranny you have if all you're doing is cruising in 6th on the highway?


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

I have to sympathize with some of those driving manuals in heavy traffic. Several of you talk about creeping along in first but that's not always realistic. Heavy traffic around here is often truely stop-go. So you spend a lot of time stopping completely, go a little, stop again. And the stops aren't even long enough to just throw the thing in neutral to wait, because by the time you do that you're going again. Or you do wait in neutral letting space open up ahead but people get cranky thinking you've fallen asleep.

Nevertheless, I will not use that as an excuse to get an Auto. If I didn't have the option of SMG I'd still go for a MT regardless of the traffic I have to face. I did a Steptronic for 3 years and hated it (mostly).


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## anon (Jul 8, 2003)

I live in Los Angeles.
I have a commute.
I drive a manual.

This is true of a lot of members here.

Traffic is just an excuse for your inability to drive stick.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

anon said:


> I live in Los Angeles.
> I have a commute.
> I drive a manual.
> 
> ...


Or laziness. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

That's not meant as a shot. "It's inconvenient" just means, "I'm too lazy to do it." IMHO, of course.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Hmm. I hope the motorcycle division can pick up the game. WTF am I going to do with a 200mph Caddilac? BMW's product line is getting farther from what I would consider buying every year. 

Too many electronics makes Lance a dull boy.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

*Little Twerp*



anon said:


> I live in Los Angeles.
> I have a commute.
> I drive a manual.
> 
> ...


:bs:

I drove a stick for 29 years on my 3.0CS, sonny. Got my Bavaria - also a stick shift - probably before your grandprents met. :twerp: Learned on a 1959 Peugeot 403 when I was 15. When you're my age I doubt you'll even be able to drive. (And, of course, the hydrogen BMWs will be a little out of your price range.)

Before you insult people, sonny, get your facts right.

I realize that now you know everything, but when you turn 18 you'll probably start to realize you don't know quite everything.

:asshole:


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Malibubimmer said:


> :bs:
> 
> I drove a stick for 29 years on my 3.0CS, sonny. Got my Bavaria - also a stick shift - probably before your grandprents met. :twerp: Learned on a 1959 Peugeot 403 when I was 15. When you're my age I doubt you'll even be able to drive. (And, of course, the hydrogen BMWs will be a little out of your price range.)
> 
> ...


Noticed you didn't address my lazy argument.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

swchang said:


> Noticed you didn't address my lazy argument.


I was too lazy to do it -- and tired, too, after attacking anon.


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## uter (Jan 6, 2002)

*Not to hijack the thread, but...*

I thought I'd use this thread to bump another one that asks the question of how many manuals vs. automatics are imported for each particular model.


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## Bob Clevenger (Dec 17, 2004)

Malibubimmer said:


> :bs:
> 
> I drove a stick for 29 years on my 3.0CS, sonny. Got my Bavaria - also a stick shift - probably before your grandprents met. :twerp: Learned on a 1959 Peugeot 403 when I was 15. When you're my age I doubt you'll even be able to drive. (And, of course, the hydrogen BMWs will be a little out of your price range.)
> 
> ...


While I disagree with *anon*'s conclusion in detail, I must observe that his (or her) post contained no insults while yours contained (an attempt at) three insulting smilies.

My own take on the auto _vs_. manual trans issue is that people who choose the AT do so because they really don't want to _drive_; they'd rather just ride and they only steer because they can't afford a chauffeur. That's my opinion; yours is probably different. I drive stick because I _want_ to, and I have gone to great lengths to find one to buy. I have also eliminated otherwise desirable cars from my list of options simply becaust they were not available in the US with a manual trans.

And please don't try that "I'm older and wiser than you, sonny" routine with me; I'm probably about the same age as you. My first car was a 1953 Buick Roadmaster -- yeah, I know they didn't make any '53 Roadmasters with MT, but I had that changed when the Dynaflush died. Actually, that car was owned by my Dad; my own first car was a 1959 Plymouth Sport Fury with MT, Isky roller tappet cam, and dual quads.


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## anon (Jul 8, 2003)

Malibubimmer said:


> :bs:
> 
> I drove a stick for 29 years on my 3.0CS, sonny. Got my Bavaria - also a stick shift - probably before your grandprents met. :twerp: Learned on a 1959 Peugeot 403 when I was 15. When you're my age I doubt you'll even be able to drive. (And, of course, the hydrogen BMWs will be a little out of your price range.)
> 
> ...


 Erm... ok.

I'll have to chalk up these comments to senility...

Like Bob mentioned, I didn't exactly insult you per se... if anything your response seems to back up my reasoning, suggesting that at your age you probably are unable to drive a stick, eat solids, and control your urinary functions about as well as your temper.

As for the whole turning 18 comment, since when is suggesting someone is YOUNG an insult? That's a bit of a stinger, geez, at my age, I'll take any compliments, deliberate or otherwise.

C'mon "Malibu" relax a little, I didn't impregnate your gran-daughter or anything.


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## TIE-Fighter (Nov 12, 2005)

Only if it is an M5!


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## ffej (Aug 17, 2005)

wag-zhp said:


> If you are driving an automatic that doesn't allow full controll of when a shift occurs, say for instance in mid corner at the limit of adhesion and you hit the engines redline and it shifts for you, you could end up sideways or in the weeds. This is the main reason why I wouldn't consider an a car with the current form of an automatic transmission. The other is that the manual still offers better performance than the automatic.


While you're right about the manual offering better control, I think (not aimed directly at you) a lot of people are missing the boat on how good the step really is. We took the e90 to the track, and when driven correctly (in sport mode) I never experienced anything other than good or better performance.

The issue was, though, *I had to be driving the car correctly.*

If you lollygag, don't brake with enough force or too harshly, aren't steady with the throttle, etc., the car will make some decisions for you that are annoying. If you DO drive it correctly the car is impressive. Both instructors I had agreed that this newest version of the Step has come a long way in replicating real world driving. I actually find that, in sport, it's shift points are related to how heavy you are on the throttle and what the car is doing. Not just where the tach is.

All that being said...I'd still rather have a Manual Transmission


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

anon said:


> Erm... ok.
> 
> I'll have to chalk up these comments to senility...
> 
> ...


I disagree with you. You were calling all those BMW drivers who don't have MTs basically incompetent. I find that insulting. And at 60 I still remember every case I learned in lawschool almost 40 years ago. So I don't think I'm getting senile. Of course, I can never remember where I left my glasses . . .


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