# Probably not ever going to buy a BMW (newer) ever again



## chivas (Aug 31, 2002)

I got a 328i as a rental here in SoCal and I can honestly say I wouldn't want to buy/own/rent a post 2002 BMW.

The car felt cheap. I know it's a 3 series but the door handle felt like a (insert your fav/unfav Japanese import car company here). 

The dash is starting to look like Audi's dash where the info is all cluttered into a tiny box between the speedo and the tach. the AC only has 6 different fan speed and between speed 5 and speed 6 is so huge, it's annoying; 5 isn't powerful enough and 6 is too much and too loud. 

to adjust the dimmer is more complicated than it should be and the ability to "customize" the setting is equally as complex and annoying to get to.

would it be too much effort to just program in words to go with the "Low Oil" or "Low Coolant" or "Your Motor Is About To Blow Up" pictures? 

can they make the buttons any small and the cup holders more intrusive for the air flow?

traded the 328i in for the C300 and to be honest, I would take the C300 over the 328i. The only grip I do have about the C300 is the HVAC buttons are like on the ground and to change the setting requires you to take your eyes off the road for a longer duration than I feel comfortable with; but then again, there's always the "Auto" button.

Sorry BMW but you have lost another customer or at least one for your new line-up's. I'll stick to the older models where the car has soul.

BMW has essentially taken the word "ultimate" out of "the ultimate driving machine". now it's just an appliance.


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## cruise_bone (Jun 6, 2007)

Interesting views. 
I love my 2010 328i and coming from a 2003 Accord EX-V6 it feels like I hit the jackpot everytime I push in the clutch or turn the wheel on a tight turn. 
Also visited a Mercedes dealer with a friend this past weekend who is looking at the C300 (luxury version, not sport). Took it for a test and liked it quite a bit. But, talk about lacking soul. The car was beautiful, well thought out, and an impeccably made machine, but driving it felt entire too soft and without the soul of my car.


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## energetik9 (Sep 9, 2008)

OK, so don't buy a BMW.... Many people are more than happy with Mercedes, although I can't say the buttons on the Mercedes will satisfy your preferences.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

The 3 Series is badly in need of a re-do. It's interior and exterior have been there seemingly forever.

Hopefully, in 2 years, the new 3 Series will be worth the wait.

I have to disagree on quality issues. My 328i is solid and the interior is well-done; so's the paint. Nothing cheap about it. Just a bit dated and tired looking.


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## chivas (Aug 31, 2002)

coming from a 98 540 and having owned a 89 M3, 89 325iX, and an 88 325ix, they all have a good feel. i'm not saying the C300 has the fun factor like the older BMW's (where the older MB's can't really compete) but the there is negligible driving feel between the two so it boils down to ease of use and ergonomics. 

one slick part about MB's i've always liked: everything is on the left side. from cruise to wipers to blinkers, all on the left side of the wheel. works out well when your right hand is occupied with her...  .... but i digress. LOL

maybe it's the fact that i got an autotragic but i do have to give BMW one up on this one: the way to "manually" shift is very cleaver. Mercedes was a lot more complex and less intuitive. the hide-away screen in the Mercedes did seem a little silly but for the looks, it's needed. i did not like how they tried to implement some sort of an "idrive" wheel control system in the car which required you to fiddle with buttons in the dash console then navigate with the wheel in center console. why have it spaced so far apart? 

the BMW did seat a lot lower giving it a very sporty feel and i did like the manual seats for weight reduction but as a "luxury" rental, it should have been powered. the leather in the BMW did feel very "Kia" like; poor attempt in putting in cheap leather. either put in decent leather or just go cloth; some people are allergic to leather or shun leather since it is made of animal skin (but that's another different argument). 

what I did like about the C300 (not sure if it's optional or came standard) is the bluetooth offered with the car and pairing it up with my Touch Cruise 09 was cake. the BMW didn't offer anything of the likes in the rental fleet. The 328i's steering wheel was relatively cleaner than the C300's 2 5-button round navigation buttons and 2 stand alones. but these are minor details that one can get use to after some time.

the drive of the C300 felt no different handling wise. the motor was just as eager however more subtle while the BMW made it a point for you to know it's working OT for you when you slap it in sport and downshifted and hammered on the gas. the Mercedes, doing the same, pulled smoother and refined. a bit soul less? maybe but it's still something to be reckoned with and just as fun w.o squeezing whatever chemicals is left in the leather on the door handle for your passengers.

even though the C300 has some of the info in the center of the dash, it didn't feel cluttered. it didn't feel... "misplaced at the last minute". it felt thought out for convenience and easy to read. a simple dial for the dimmer works a hell of a lot easier than 3 different clicks and flicks and this and that around a stalk on the steering column. I like how BMW use to lay it out in a more simple and less of "i'm trying to impress you with my complexity" approach they seem to be going for now. always been fan of KISS and K.I.S.S. and BMW should keep it that way. 

i've had an older 93 190E Sportline and the layout isn't so different where it becomes a stranger. It use to be when you sat in an E28 into an E34 into an E39, it felt like your girlfriend (or wife or boyfriend or husband) got a little extra something done to themselves. could be bigger boobs, butt or peck implants, etc... but it was familiar without feeling awkward. The 328i I rented made it feel awkward. The 93 Sportline (which only had 40K miles when I sold it 2 years ago), didn't feel too far apart from the C class. sure the gauges were updated but still in the same location. The turning stalk and the cruise and the wipers were all in the same location. the center console, a bit updated, still had the same comforting familiar feeling so the transition over to a newer model would feel less threatening and the learning curve a lot easier. is this good? well, depends. I'm not longer "familiar" with BMW's and their layout; it just doesn't pay attention to me, the driver, anymore. call me selfish but I liked how the center was always slighted tilted towards me when I drove. it's about ME, not about the other passengers when I drove; sure it would be nice but they aren't the ones in the everyday, i am. 


sorry for the rant, just had to get this off my chest. I'm overall disappointed in the direction BMW is going, that is all. Your opinion, like mileage, may differ.


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## hmc (Nov 4, 2005)

I also prefer C300 to 328i. What I like about C300 is its solid ride quality, feels much solid/smooth over bumpy roads than 328i, closer to 5 series feel if you know what I mean. C300 Sports model also feels reasonably sporty.

Never been impressed by 328i automatic version. Manual transmission 328i (after CDV removal) is a different car though ... very sporty.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

I'm okay with the exterior of the current 3er but the interior is quite a bit of a letdown. It's like they couldn't be bothered to insert more design flair and pizazz into it.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Driving is serious business. The fewer the distractions, the better. You want to drive in an interior like an upscale steakhouse, buy a Lexus. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy/lease a BMW. You don't like what the company offers, move on. Plenty of other choices out there.

The more of you folks who move on, the more BMW's I have to choose from.


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## 6 Brit (Jan 19, 2009)

what he didnt mention is the boom it made while idling lol - the coolant and engine lights coming on for no apparent reason...
unacceptable in such an expensive new car with 400 miles on it.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

Truthfully I find all of your complaints to be petty and not even accurate. Other than the dimmer, which you will never change once you set it, the other complaints don't make sense to me. I find the door handles to be very solid and well engineered. The cupholders could be better but blocking airflow? It sound like you are stretching to find things to bitch about. Regarding the fan speed, once the interior is up to temperature I never need to have the fan over the 3rd or 4th speed. The 6th speed is for near maximum air flow. That's why it's so powerful.

Personally I never even considered the C300 when I shopped my car. It's not nearly as fun to drive and the engine can't compare to the N52. It has way more "soul" than the Mercedes.


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## heffdiddy (Mar 22, 2010)

i would like to know the comparison of a 335 to a C350.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

heffdiddy said:


> i would like to know the comparison of a 335 to a C350.


The biggest issue is that you can't get a manual tranny on a C350. Shows you how Mercedes perceives the car or how they perceive its owners.


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## chivas (Aug 31, 2002)

AzNMpower32 said:


> I'm okay with the exterior of the current 3er but the interior is quite a bit of a letdown. It's like they couldn't be bothered to insert more design flair and pizazz into it.


Not even just more flair or pizazz but just the feel of things.



hpowders said:


> Driving is serious business. The fewer the distractions, the better. You want to drive in an interior like an upscale steakhouse, buy a Lexus. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy/lease a BMW. You don't like what the company offers, move on. Plenty of other choices out there.
> 
> The more of you folks who move on, the more BMW's I have to choose from.


well no kidding. i'm merely making a comparo here since I had the opportunity to rent both back to back



Michael Schott said:


> Truthfully I find all of your complaints to be petty and not even accurate. Other than the dimmer, which you will never change once you set it, the other complaints don't make sense to me. I find the door handles to be very solid and well engineered. The cupholders could be better but blocking airflow? It sound like you are stretching to find things to bitch about. Regarding the fan speed, once the interior is up to temperature I never need to have the fan over the 3rd or 4th speed. The 6th speed is for near maximum air flow. That's why it's so powerful.
> 
> Personally I never even considered the C300 when I shopped my car. It's not nearly as fun to drive and the engine can't compare to the N52. It has way more "soul" than the Mercedes.


I didn't notice the cup holders blocking the air flow until my friend got into the car, opened the cup holders and looked at me with a WTF look: "good idea, place the driver's side cup holder so when you place a drink there, I don't get any air. then i place my drink on the passenger side and the other vent gets blocked. who's the idiot that came up with this design?" that's my friend and she made a good point. you think it's petty but if you were the passenger and it's 105 out and the AC is blowing everywhere but you, you'd be singing a different tune. the door handles... i can't begin to explain how pathetic it feels. if i wanted something so effortless and lack any feedback, i'd drive my mom's lexus or my dad's acura. at least in my 540, when you pull on the door handle, you PULL on it knowing you're pulling on something solid. the 328 feels like i'm pulling on a toy handle. 
the fan speed made me think about my ex's Jetta... cheap. less fan speed, less cost. there should be some linear and gradual increase in air flow than boom... Boom... BOom then BAM-IN-YOUR-FACE fan speed. I'm spoiled with the E39. I can always find a fan speed that it's too much or too little. I do, however, miss what they did in the E30 which is the ability to control how much air you can have in each level; more air to the dash but a little to the legs. the controls these days is just face, leg and head. no 80% to the face and 20% to the leg. it's these tiny things that makes a luxury car different than say... a KIA. you want the super soft door handle? get an Accord. Like smooth manual trans, get an Accord. 
I whipped up the same canyon roads here in Cali with the C300 as I did with the 328 and even my passenger who sat though both of my runs said the C300 felt more solid and fun while the 328 gave them a slight insecure feeling.
as for the dimmer, i do change it up when i drive. sunset is at full brightness. when it's dark, i turn off the nav screen in my e39 and dim the lights all the way down. lets me focus on the road than anything else.
I do agree that there shouldn't be too much flair here and there and the C300 doesn't have a lot either. You should really test out the C300/C350 though. it's not your grandfather's MB that you're thinking.
Oh, and the C300 motor sounds 1000x's better. driving though an underpass at WOT with the windows down, the MB sounds more commanding alive than the muted grunt from the 328; the C just sounded very "German".



heffdiddy said:


> i would like to know the comparison of a 335 to a C350.


that would be interesting. I am going to test drive the C350 saturday.



6 Brit said:


> what he didnt mention is the boom it made while idling lol - the coolant and engine lights coming on for no apparent reason...
> unacceptable in such an expensive new car with 400 miles on it.


LOL... that scared the piss outta me.


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## chivas (Aug 31, 2002)

i'm not here to pick a fight with e90 owners or anything like that. I'm merely stating my experience with both cars of the same segment back to back. 

call me petty about my nit picking is fine because at the end of the day we're talking about luxury cars and what separates the "boys from the men" are these little things. anyone can make a door handle, just look at Tata motors and their tiny whatever-it-is. it is the way it feels and while German cars are not all the same, BMW has always been about having a feel to their cars from the door handles to the turn signals to the touch of a button. if these little things do not bother you, you overspent on your car since a Camry/Accord/Maxima can do all the same.

don't get me wrong, there are drawbacks to the C300 like it feels big on the highway and some location of buttons and how the wipers sometimes click on if you flick the turn stalk weird. Or how the steering column controls are a little too close. it's not perfect but if there was a gun pointed to my head and i had to choose one, the C300 would be my pick.


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## energetik9 (Sep 9, 2008)

heffdiddy said:


> i would like to know the comparison of a 335 to a C350.


I shopped both. the Mercedes didn't seem as comfortable and I hit my head on the headliner of the MB. I have never enjoyed the cluster of buttons on the Mercedes, but buttons are minor and I imagine that once you get used to them not a big deal. In the end the fact that the 335 was far more responsive and a whopping 2 seconds faster in the 0-60, my comparison was complete at that point.


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## cruise_bone (Jun 6, 2007)

Michael Schott said:


> Truthfully I find all of your complaints to be petty and not even accurate. Other than the dimmer, which you will never change once you set it, the other complaints don't make sense to me. I find the door handles to be very solid and well engineered. The cupholders could be better but blocking airflow? It sound like you are stretching to find things to bitch about. Regarding the fan speed, once the interior is up to temperature I never need to have the fan over the 3rd or 4th speed. The 6th speed is for near maximum air flow. That's why it's so powerful.
> 
> Personally I never even considered the C300 when I shopped my car. It's not nearly as fun to drive and the engine can't compare to the N52. It has way more "soul" than the Mercedes.


+1. :thumbup:


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

I believe the fan speed can be adjusted in a much more analog fashion when the system is in AUTO mode. I know the fan speeds up and slows down several times before it actually shows "one notch" lower or higher on the six-speed fan speed display when in AUTO mode. I personally find the auto climate control to work very well, much better than in my wife's Infiniti, where we hardly ever us it.

If I recall, my old E36 has 3 fan speeds, so I am not sure I can complain about 6 possible speeds. :rofl:


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## LHB (Apr 16, 2010)

chivas said:


> i'm not here to pick a fight with e90 owners or anything like that. I'm merely stating my experience with both cars of the same segment back to back.
> 
> call me petty about my nit picking is fine because at the end of the day we're talking about luxury cars and what separates the "boys from the men" are these little things. anyone can make a door handle, just look at Tata motors and their tiny whatever-it-is. it is the way it feels and while German cars are not all the same, BMW has always been about having a feel to their cars from the door handles to the turn signals to the touch of a button. if these little things do not bother you, you overspent on your car since a Camry/Accord/Maxima can do all the same.
> 
> don't get me wrong, there are drawbacks to the C300 like it feels big on the highway and some location of buttons and how the wipers sometimes click on if you flick the turn stalk weird. Or how the steering column controls are a little too close. it's not perfect but if there was a gun pointed to my head and i had to choose one, the C300 would be my pick.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

So based on a single loaner 328's interior you are never buying a post 2002 model year BMW? Makes perfect sense.

I agree about the cup holders though. They are in a crappy location. However, my 750 and X5 both have the cup holder in a normal location in the center console.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Ha! Ha!

If he drove my 328i with SP, PP, CWP, xenons and brushed aluminum, I would never get my car back from him!!


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## CDirks (Jun 28, 2010)

I think reliability has just as much to do with the driver as it does the car. A car could be built to last, but if the owner beats the sh*t out of it and doesn't bother with any regular maintenance, then that person 

shouldn't blame the car for being unreliable. As much as cars should keep themselves together on their own, we can't turn a blind eye to the simple things like 50k mile check-ups. 

When a person loves their car, they generally take care of it --> car is a good experience.

When a person doesn't like their car, they feel no restraint in disregarding any maintenance issues.

Bottom line, you take care of your car and it will take care of you.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

I have a light foot and am no speed demon. As soon as I see a red light way up ahead, if nobody's behind me, I take my foot off the gas and coast to the light. 

My cars last forever.


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## gtxragtop (Feb 25, 2008)

hpowders said:


> I've had 4 BMW's now. The only trouble I ever had was a dying battery in my 3rd year of my 545i
> 
> If it were I, I would post a thread that was the exact mirror image of this thread.
> 
> BMW reliability so totally rocks!!


And how many years and miles do you keep them before trade in? I see you have a 2007 now.

It is generally considered by most forum members that BMWs require far more maintenance than many other vehicles. This is the price for performance and lots of electronic gadgetry built by Bosch. It simply is not as solid or maintenance free as many American and Japanese vehicles.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

gtxragtop said:


> And how many years and miles do you keep them before trade in? I see you have a 2007 now.
> 
> It is generally considered by most forum members that BMWs require far more maintenance than many other vehicles. This is the price for performance and lots of electronic gadgetry built by Bosch. It simply is not as solid or maintenance free as many American and Japanese vehicles.


I kept my first 325i 8 years, 57,000 miles.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

hpowders said:


> Driving is serious business. The fewer the distractions, the better. You want to drive in an interior like an upscale steakhouse, buy a Lexus. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy/lease a BMW. You don't like what the company offers, move on. Plenty of other choices out there.
> 
> The more of you folks who move on, the more BMW's I have to choose from.


Thank you for the obligatory "Buy a Lexus" post.

I have owned Lexus and I have owned BMW and while the BMW may have more "soul" my Lexus had a level of refinement and build quality that my BMW can not come close to. I have less than 30,000 miles on my 335i and it is starting to develop rattles and they are coming from the dashboard not from the convertible top! I put 120,000 miles on my Lexus SC300 and that car felt like it was carved out of a solid block of steel. There is no excuse for a $60,000 plus car developing rattles at less than 30,000 miles.

As I have stated here before this my first and last BMW. You truly do get what you pay for and I chintzed out when I bought a BMW and will not make that mistake again.

CA


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## Killjoy (May 13, 2009)

My mother just got a brand new C300 a few months ago, and being the good son, I've tested its performance a few times- and feel very disappointed with steering feel. Effort is much, much too light.


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## fdupuis (Aug 30, 2010)

It's an interesting comment that a couple of people made (paraphrasing) that it's only really worth getting a BMW if you get it with a good list of options.

I was wondering how a manufacturer like BMW approaches designing something like a 3 series. Do they start with an 'everything on the car' design, then subtract from that, or do they target the volume model (not sure what it is in the current model, but in the past would have been the 325 or 318i) then add to that?

One thing I've always liked about the M cars is you know exactly what it's 'supposed' to be. The options for M cars (historically, I don't know about the current range) are much less dramatic than say going from a 316d to a kitted out 335.

I will say this though: I get just as much driving pleasure from my 318is as I do from my M3's. What I care about (personal preference) is steering feel, car balance, and the rest of the things that connect me to the car (pedal location/feel, shifter, etc...). I have yet to drive another (4 seater) car that does this as well as most BMW's.


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## Shrike (Nov 7, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> You truly do get what you pay for and I chintzed out when I bought a BMW and will not make that mistake again.
> 
> CA


Enjoy the Sword of Damocles that is the IMS failure that afflicts the Cayman's flat-6. And some say that BMWs have issues...


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

captainaudio said:


> Thank you for the obligatory "Buy a Lexus" post.
> 
> I have owned Lexus and I have owned BMW and while the BMW may have more "soul" my Lexus had a level of refinement and build quality that my BMW can not come close to. I have less than 30,000 miles on my 335i and it is starting to develop rattles and they are coming from the dashboard not from the convertible top! I put 120,000 miles on my Lexus SC300 and that car felt like it was carved out of a solid block of steel. There is no excuse for a $60,000 plus car developing rattles at less than 30,000 miles.
> 
> ...


Okay. Which vehicle are you thinking of buying next? Lexus LS 460? Infiniti M? Audi A6?


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## powerharp (Jul 21, 2010)

I remember test driving the SC300. At the time (1992) I was also considering a (pardon the expression) Mercedes 190E 2.6 Sportline. I liked the throatiness of the Lexus and its decent power, but the steering was so totally lacking in road feel that it actually felt dangerous to drive. I ended up with the Benz and it was one of my favorite cars. The rare Sportline version had a very stiff suspension, great sport seats front and rear and cornered like it was on rails. Back then, there was no real auto-manual tranny and the 4 speed automatic pretty much sucked as did the near gutless motor, but that car did bruise quite a few BMW owners' egos in the twisties. Sorry folks.

Yup $60K for a car that rattles is a below average experience.

1950 Midsize - 5'9" 175 pounds, forget 0-60 because I am 60... but I can do 30 one arm push ups, 50 pull ups, 30 Bruce Lee Dragon Flags, 20 one arm hammer curls with 55 pounds, can hold a yoga crow pose for nearly a minute ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=481I6Ozk4Qo&feature=related) ... put that up your modified M cars tailpipes and smoke it!


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## Z4Bob (Jul 25, 2010)

"Probably not ever going to buy a BMW (newer) ever again"

GOOD!


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Very helpful.


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## powerharp (Jul 21, 2010)

How many of you have identities when you're not seated in your cars?

1950 Midsize - 5'9" 175 pounds, forget 0-60 because I am 60... but I can do 30 one arm push ups, 50 pull ups, 30 Bruce Lee Dragon Flags, 20 one arm hammer curls with 55 pounds, can hold a yoga crow pose for nearly a minute (







 ) ... put that up your modified M cars tailpipes and smoke it!


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## Z4Bob (Jul 25, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Very helpful.


Glad I could be of service!


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Even more helpful.


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## powerharp (Jul 21, 2010)

I was manufactured in Los Angeles, long before the invasion of the auslanders who continue to try to destroy nirvana. It was a beautiful place before we had smog, gangs, show biz wannabees and 20" wheels


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

That's more like it.


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## samjennings7 (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm sorry to here that, I actually prefer the newer BMW models over the old ones. I have the exactly opposite feelings about the Mercedes however in that the classic's are the best.


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## HoustonScott (Sep 19, 2010)

Goodbye!

HS


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## smoo9309 (Sep 9, 2010)

chivas said:


> the AC only has 6 different fan speed .


:rofl:


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