# Can a dealer pull up a Manheim INSIGHT Condition Report?



## dekaliber (Aug 17, 2007)

I was wondering if anyone with a Manheim subscription could do me a huge favor and pull up an INSIGHT Condition Report on a vehicle I'm about to buy. I'm pretty much ready to pull the trigger, and am just curious what information is in the "DAMAGES - SUGGESTED REPAIRS" area so I have a sense for what has been fixed on the car. Thanks in advance!


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## [email protected] (May 6, 2010)

dekaliber said:


> I was wondering if anyone with a Manheim subscription could do me a huge favor and pull up an INSIGHT Condition Report on a vehicle I'm about to buy. I'm pretty much ready to pull the trigger, and am just curious what information is in the "DAMAGES - SUGGESTED REPAIRS" area so I have a sense for what has been fixed on the car. Thanks in advance!


Manheim only provides condition reports on vehicles at or heading to auction. They are usually done by a lot jockey and as accurate as the weather. Are you purchasing from an auction or dealer?

Also the CR will not tell you what has been done, only what needs to be done. And it really only covers cosmetic flaws, you wont find mechanic necessities.


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## dekaliber (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm buying from a dealer who purchased the vehicle from the auction in late April. It's a lease return from BMW FS. I basically just wanted to get a sense for what cosmetic condition it was in when it was up for auction. One, so I have a starting point in my inspection once the vehicle arrives at the dealership (still in transit), and two, because I'm curious regarding the extent of the work that was required to return it to "like new" condition. Lots of vehicles are ridden with dents and scratches and scuffs and while all of this can be repaired, I'd like to buy a vehicle with as much original paint as possible.

It's a 2007 vehicle still under warranty with low miles and no claims on the service record or any stories in the Carfax/Autocheck, and I play to get a PPI done before I purchase, so I'm covered as much as I could be on the mechanical side. I was just curious more than anything about the cosmetic history, and from the CRs I've seen, the inspection seems pretty picky and thorough.

Here's a sample I found -- just wondering it's feasible for anyone with manheim access to pull the same info back if I provided the VIN, mileage, and date of auction.
http://mmsc400.manheim.com/MABEL/EC...ECRTYPE=**&SAUCI=RAA&locale=en_US&SWO=5501343

Thanks!


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## [email protected] (May 6, 2010)

dekaliber said:


> I'm buying from a dealer who purchased the vehicle from the auction in late April. It's a lease return from BMW FS. I basically just wanted to get a sense for what cosmetic condition it was in when it was up for auction. One, so I have a starting point in my inspection once the vehicle arrives at the dealership (still in transit), and two, because I'm curious regarding the extent of the work that was required to return it to "like new" condition. Lots of vehicles are ridden with dents and scratches and scuffs and while all of this can be repaired, I'd like to buy a vehicle with as much original paint as possible.
> 
> It's a 2007 vehicle still under warranty with low miles and no claims on the service record or any stories in the Carfax/Autocheck, and I play to get a PPI done before I purchase, so I'm covered as much as I could be on the mechanical side. I was just curious more than anything about the cosmetic history, and from the CRs I've seen, the inspection seems pretty picky and thorough.
> 
> ...


The condition reports are only available online up to the auction day. There is no archive that "I" know of. So if its already on the lot then you're out of luck as far as a CR. Your best bet is to find someone with a paint gauge and run it around the car to check the depth. I wouldn't be concerned with door dings that can be dent wizard fixed, we do it to $250k Ferrari's. And just FYI, auction cars usually need to the most reconditioning and are usually more expensive than trade-ins or private purschases/consignement so either the margins are smaller for the dealer or the car cost more. But there are always exceptions. Hope this helps.


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## dekaliber (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback! Would it be possible for you to run a quick check on the year/make/model auction history so I can at least get a sense for what the general condition was (above/avg/below) and where the auction took place? In theory by changing the work order number and auction location in the URL, it's possible to pull up records for any particular vehicle, but it's kind of like trying to hit a bulls-eye in the dark.


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## [email protected] (May 6, 2010)

dekaliber said:


> Thanks for the feedback! Would it be possible for you to run a quick check on the year/make/model auction history so I can at least get a sense for what the general condition was (above/avg/below) and where the auction took place? In theory by changing the work order number and auction location in the URL, it's possible to pull up records for any particular vehicle, but it's kind of like trying to hit a bulls-eye in the dark.


Now if I told you what they paid for it what kinda fellow dealer would I be. 

Shoot me a pm and I'll give you a base value though.


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## slebis (May 12, 2010)

*dont just use the CR in manheim*

try Callaspotter.com they will walk the cars at the manheim auction while you are on the phone with them...it's a great service.


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## [email protected] (May 6, 2010)

slebis said:


> try Callaspotter.com they will walk the cars at the manheim auction while you are on the phone with them...it's a great service.


He was trying to get the report after the sale. Good info tho.


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## silverprl (Nov 5, 2015)

*The dealer that bought it from Manheim CAN call up any of his old reports*

just went through a nightmare buying a car for my wife. I'm an experienced buyer, owner, and builder of high-value automobiles. Even the best of us can get ripped off in this new era of used auto-dealers taking advantage of internet buyers, bargain hunters, and those who don't understand their scam....

After the fact - After we received a car with dried-in paint drips and masking-tape still in place...

The dealer ran the Manheim insight report from his account, which had all of his auction purchases on file. The car was a 3.7 at Auction, the dealer, "Elliott Bay Autobrokers" or Phelps Auto - voided the finish warranty with a wet sand and terrible paint job - then, listed it as EXCELLENT. If you're near Seattle or think of buying from this place online, know in advance that they "recondition" every car they buy at auction - meaning they buy cars with extensive minor damage, repaint, and then sell below CPO price, but 20% above what a 3.7 Average Auction car should get.

It's a nightmare to unwind a deal from 1000 miles away - not to mention they somehow funded a loan on the car 2 weeks before we actually picked it up and signed for it... so there's that problem too.

This is the business model being established by Manheim for these Second Tier resellers. They are only getting the opportunity to see the cars that a dealer will not CPO. More important - increasing numbers of repair and maintenance companies are not reporting to carfax and autocheck - so those services are becoming worthless sources of data. And - if bought at auction with tons of un-repaired problems - if fixed privately, the reports show nothing.

I've always bought private party M cars 30-36 months old and been very happy. After this, and seeing how CPO is forcing prices, I'd rather pay an extra $5,000 than get ripped off ever again. Not to mention the EXTREME waste of time and energy going into the return - and also the search for the "great deal."


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## Ace535i (Jan 28, 2012)

In general, would buying a lease return from a dealer that acquired it from an action a red flag?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

How you would buy a car sight unseen is the real question.

I can see the benefits of auction- 'getting that pristine deal, blah blah'... so many newbies are intoxicated with stories of $10k savings.

But to buy a used car and not lay eyes on it until after the deal is done is simply reckless.

HAVING SAID THAT. Thanks for posting a warning to others. Carfax and autocheck engender an absolutely false sense of security- these companmies fill their reports with bits of data that create the impression of accuracy and completeness. People think that paperwork and reports they get are created by honest people with the usual disclaimers on them- yet when completed by scam artists, the fine print can make it quite difficult to prove fraud.

Nothing replaces 'eyes on'. Plane tickets are relatively cheap.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Ace535i said:


> In general, would buying a lease return from a dealer that acquired it from an action a red flag?


A BMW dealer?


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

silverprl said:


> just went through a nightmare buying a car for my wife. I'm an experienced buyer, owner, and builder of high-value automobiles. Even the best of us can get ripped off in this new era of used auto-dealers taking advantage of internet buyers, bargain hunters, and those who don't understand their scam....
> 
> After the fact - After we received a car with dried-in paint drips and masking-tape still in place...
> 
> ...


Just so you know, CPO is no guarantee that the car is in good condition. Never, I mean NEVER buy a pre-owned car sight unseen and without a PPI. I am sorry to hear about your negative experience, but given your level of experience with the auto market, I am surprised that you did this. I would never buy a pre-owned car that I did not thoroughly research and inspect. I will only _*lease*_ cars that I have not seen. If it is a buy, I will not do the deal until I have gone over the car very carefully regardless of if I custom ordered it or not.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Ace535i said:


> In general, would buying a lease return from a dealer that acquired it from an action a red flag?


IMHO, no. Some dealers auction perfectly good lease returns because they cannot move them in their market. For example, a New York dealer gets a clean 2012 M3 coupe on lease return. Perfect condition and garaged car, but it came into stock in late December 2015. That New York dealer knows he can't move it before June 2016 because it is extremely hard to sell pre-owned RWD M cars with snow and salt on the ground. He decides to cut his losses and auction it out and it gets purchased by a Florida dealer in Miami. The Florida dealer knows he can sell that M3 in a week so he ll pay for shipping down to Miami from New York. To highlight my point in the post above this one, you cannot simply look at Manheim transaction records and figure out if the pre-owned car is a good one or not. You have to do some legwork, research and PPI. It has been my experience that most pre-owned BMW's are not priced low enough, CPO or not, to be worth the risk over a brand new BMW. Back in 2007-2011, the pre-owned market was much weaker and pre-owned was a much better deal. Not so anymore. Want a CPO M3 coupe for 45k and finance it for 60 months? Why not just lease a new one for 850-900 a month because you are paying roughly the same amount per month and the lease gives you a new car with a full warranty and no guesswork as to how it was treated and maintained (and we all know you are not going to keep that 8 year old M3 after you pay it off in 5 years so the advantage of buying is gone since you will have a continual car payment once you trade in the 8 year old M3 and start fresh with a new unit or newer pre-owned unit).


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## silverprl (Nov 5, 2015)

All that's great, and pretty obvious. Sadly, you are missing the point. BMW Finance is purposefully suppressing maintenance and records of vehicles they send to certain auctions off lease - thus stripping all but DMV reported accidetns from public VHR's. They do not strip this data from CPO cars, or cars auctioned between branded dealerships. Second, cars that fail CPO, are not sent between branded dealers, stripped of their VHR's maintenance and damage hit Manheim - and the new used dealer model is to SEEK these cars. They can through BMW Finance usually obtain service records, and then they have their in-house body shop make quick repairs and re-paint. What was a C- car is quickly changed to an A - except that same car will have the Finish and Rust warranty void if taken to a BMW Dealership at year five when the cheap paint starts peeling. None of the Body & Paint work is reported, as it is done privately. Buyers get a C- car at an A price, below CPO, so without the warranty & unwittingly without the Paint and Rust warranty.

I've confirmed the above with BMW. I have letters and communications from 5 Used Car Dealers across the West Coast that exist join this Business Model. This is not an outlier situation, it is purposeful. Worse, the prices are held-up by the CPO program and mega-dealers holding 10-50 dealerships.

It's likely a matter that will come across the desk of a State Attorney General at some point in the future. I've also been told by multiple BMW dealers, within large Dealer Groups, that they price-fix within their group, within the brand, and with other dealers.... Making buying an unfair market....

Last - I'm surprised I did this too. I did thoroughly research the car and the dealer. However, I missed some opportunities searching for only negative info on the dealer, and most importantly having the car delivered in the pouring rain - where my Paint Micrometer was only giving errors, I had a 2 day drive and was rushed, and 5 different people (including the owner, GM, F&I, and 2 sales people all LIED about the process and vehicle)

At this point, I spent so much unwinding the deal, I decided to also spend time finding others with the same bad experience. I now have nearly 2 dozen owners with Paint warranties that have been void. I bought 100 domain names, and soon, verified purchases with void warranties will be posted as reviews of these places.
:angel:



Alpine300ZHP said:


> Just so you know, CPO is no guarantee that the car is in good condition. Never, I mean NEVER buy a pre-owned car sight unseen and without a PPI. I am sorry to hear about your negative experience, but given your level of experience with the auto market, I am surprised that you did this. I would never buy a pre-owned car that I did not thoroughly research and inspect. I will only _*lease*_ cars that I have not seen. If it is a buy, I will not do the deal until I have gone over the car very carefully regardless of if I custom ordered it or not.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

silverprl said:


> I've also been told by multiple BMW dealers, within large Dealer Groups, that they price-fix within their group, within the brand, and with other dealers.... Making buying an unfair market....


I'm not sure what you mean by "large Dealer Groups?"

Price fixing "with *other* dealers" is definitely "price fixing" but if you're talking pricing policies within the same company, then that's not "price fixing." For example, AutoNation owns about 300 dealerships and Hendrick Automotive Group owns about 100 dealerships but AutoNation is one company and Hendrick Automotive Group is one company. Each of those companies sets pricing policies as they see fit within their company. That's not price fixing. On the other hand, if AutoNation and Hendrick get together to discuss pricing strategy, that could be considered price fixing.


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## silverprl (Nov 5, 2015)

Exactly. And Autonation & Hendrick do speak together about pricing. They also speak directly and indirectly via the Brand CPO pricing guidelines they are required to meet.

You might disagree - although I have the on-record documents - and am not on a witch hunt or trying to go after them.... But look no further than the public companies, their record profit margins on used cars, their ability to Wal Mart independents out of their way or into niches and you can see the pattern. This is a new and evolving marketing and business model helped along with shopping apps and the appearance of published avg selling prices... the old Blue Book which is no longer used but part of the consumer shopping lexicon... etc...

Last - goto Vegas the next massive dealership conference, and rather than wine and dine, sit in on the conferences - this is all talked about and encouraged - its not a secret or a conspiracy theory....



Ninong said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "large Dealer Groups?"
> 
> Price fixing "with *other* dealers" is definitely "price fixing" but if you're talking pricing policies within the same company, then that's not "price fixing." For example, AutoNation owns about 300 dealerships and Hendrick Automotive Group owns about 100 dealerships but AutoNation is one company and Hendrick Automotive Group is one company. Each of those companies sets pricing policies as they see fit within their company. That's not price fixing. On the other hand, if AutoNation and Hendrick get together to discuss pricing strategy, that could be considered price fixing.


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