# Why the Deception ?



## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Seems there are many upset with several facets of the 5 series. I dont understand why BMW is deceiving its customers and why its dealerships are accessories after the fact.

Check out this recent post from the -fly:

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e60/forum.php?postid=4265519&page=1


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## SupraRZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Maybe the E60 is secretly being made in Detroit by GM :rofl: 

Although I havent complained about the quality of my North (south) Carolina X5? I just know it's made in the USA


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Seems like an overreaction to a blown out of proportion "problem" to me. They probably just had a shortage in materials from their suppliers during the first round of manufacturing, hence the titanium finish pieces on wood-interiored cars.

Besides, the quality and workmanship complaint seems totally baseless. The gaps and seams look much tighter on the "delivered" pic than on the "promised" pic.

Worst case scenario -- BMW refuses to replace the trim with the now available wood... what would it cost to buy the pieces yourself? Couple hundred bucks tops? BFD.

No one forced anyone to accept delivery. 

:dunno:


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Plaz said:


> Seems like an overreaction to a blown out of proportion "problem" to me. They probably just had a shortage in materials from their suppliers during the first round of manufacturing, hence the titanium finish pieces on wood-interiored cars.


Yep.



Plaz said:


> Besides, the quality and workmanship complaint seems totally baseless. The gaps and seams look much tighter on the "delivered" pic than on the "promised" pic.


Yep.



Plaz said:


> Worst case scenario -- BMW refuses to replace the trim with the now available wood... what would it cost to buy the pieces yourself? Couple hundred bucks tops? BFD. No one forced anyone to accept delivery.
> 
> :dunno:


Woah, I can't go that far.


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

Plaz said:


> Worst case scenario -- BMW refuses to replace the trim with the now available wood... what would it cost to buy the pieces yourself? Couple hundred bucks tops? BFD.


Id guess it would cost many hundreds of dollars.

Hell the little glove box wood strip on my E36 is $300. So I am sure wood for a brand new E60 would be considerably more.

What that poster misses is that BMW always has several interior options based on the level of the series and option packages. He may well have purchased a lower level than what was pictured.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

At least there is one BMW dealer who freely admits BMW's position: that it is acceptable to mislead its customers, and make light of their concerns regarding the inadequacies of this vehicle.

One would have thought that BMW would be happy to correct their errors and apologize for any customer inconvenience. Instead, they appear to be accusing their customers of overreacting and refuse any responsibility for this and other problems with the new 5 series. 

This is the quality control and customer service one might expect from a $15K low budget car manufacturer, but certainly not from a company selling a $65K vehicle in the luxury segment.

YEP, YEP, YEP; a rather unfortunate state of affairs indeed.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

MojoJojo said:


> At least there is one BMW dealer who freely admits BMW's position: that it is acceptable to mislead its customers, and make light of their concerns regarding the inadequacies of this vehicle.
> 
> One would have thought that BMW would be happy to correct their errors and apologize for any customer inconvenience. Instead, they appear to be accusing their customers of overreacting and refuse any responsibility for this and other problems with the new 5 series.
> 
> ...


Did you ask your dealer if they would replace the trim before you accepted delivery? If so, what did they say?

If their answer was unacceptable to you, why did you accept the car?

Would you rather they have delayed manufacture and shipment of the new 5er because of a few pieces of veneer would be missing from the first batch of cars?

Manufacture and release of a brand new design/model, especially in its first weeks of production, is bound to run into some insignificant little hiccups like this. If you're not prepared to accept that, you should wait until the second year of the new model, at least. There are thousands of parts from a huge number of suppliers, many of which have to begin production simultaneously. It must be an absolutely gargantuan task to coordinate and execute. There are a huge number of variables.

If you're this bent out of shape over this, all I can say is I'd hate to be the neighborhood dog or cat that inadvertantly takes a wizz on your lawn.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

You miss the point.

There are no doubt issues that arise during production that necessitate some "improvisation" by a manufacturer. If these "improvisations" require the outfitting of a product with inferior materials, the manufacturer should be ready to rectify the problem once appropriate materials are available.

Are here lies the REAL issue and point. Why has BMW (the manufacturer) refused to stand by their product and provide the materials as promised ? Instead of blaming the customer for what is obviously a problem related to manufacturing, and attempting to extort more money for parts that should be present in these vehicles, don't you believe that BMW should attempt to correct their error ? 

Spending around $65,000.00 dollars for a car should buy one the right to have the interior trim delivered as promised. Who has time to worry about the lawn habits of the neighborhood dog and cat, when it is BMW taking the wizz on your car.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

MojoJojo said:


> You miss the point.
> 
> There are no doubt issues that arise during production that necessitate some "improvisation" by a manufacturer. If these "improvisations" require the outfitting of a product with inferior materials, the manufacturer should be ready to rectify the problem once appropriate materials are available.
> 
> ...


You have yet to answer the questions.

Why did you buy a car that was not to your satisfaction?

Did you ask your dealer about the trim before completing the transaction? If so, what did they say?

I get the impression you impulse-bought the car off the lot, as is (w/warranty of course), then saw a brochure or a website and decided you liked the look in the brochure or on the website better. And now you're bitching and moaning about it.

If so, your gripe is nothing more than baseless sour grapes and buyers remorse, as BMW did nothing to "deceive" you. You bought the car after having ample opportunity to inspect it and make a decision whether you wanted it or not.

If you bought a suit in a store that had plastic buttons on the jacket, then returned to the store a week later to see that the new shipment of the same suit had metal buttons, you wouldn't expect the store to replace your buttons, would you? Well, maybe YOU would. But all that makes you is an unreasonable customer. It doesn't make the suitmaker a liar.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

You may have a great future in BMW customer service (if indeed you dont already work there) ! You have all the qualities: the ability to render judgement without appropriate data, the ability to chastise the customer for inherent inadequacies of the vehicle, and the inability of answering the question at hand.

Lets use your feeble textile analogy, but make it more true to life: 

A customer wishes to purchase a suit that he needs for a special occasion. The vendor doesn't have the actual suit in stock but shows the customer the specifications and pictures of the suit which include nice metal buttons. The suit is pricey, but the customer wants to have one of the best. The suit company is well known and considered "high end", so the customer gives all his specifications (cuffed trouser etc) and measurements and awaits delivery of his garment.

After waiting quite some time, the garment is shipped to the buyer, close to when the customer needs it for his occassion. The suit fits, but the buttons are plastic and cheap looking (and certainly not the nice metal buttons pictured/promised in the buyers guide). 

It seems that the metal buttons were in short supply for a couple months, and in order to keep inventory moving, the manufacturer substituted some easily acquired and cheap plastic buttons instead. The customer calls the vendor who refers him to the manufacturer. The manufacturer acts confused, does not disclose the truth, and refers the customer back to the vendor. And so it goes.

I believe most sensible people would agree that the manufacturer should be responsible for the shipped product, and once the metal buttons became available, should furnish them to the vendor so they could be placed on the suit as promised.

Common sense and customer service should dictate to BMW what the right course of action is here. It is truely sad that they and their dealer agents are acting irresponsibly, and must to rely on surrogates of little moral "fabric" like yourself to defend them.


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

MojoJojo said:


> ...


Why won't you answer his questions? :dunno:


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

I can only assume by your reticence with regard to my questions that I am correct.

My "moral fabric" is just fine, thank you. If anything, your attempt to change the terms of a deal after it has been completed should cause you to turn that moral examination scope in the other direction to evaluate your own principles, rather than engaging in blathering tu quoque attacks.

I'm done here. Have a nice day.


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## SupraRZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Even if it was a couple hundred bucks I probably dont want to waste/spend that time to do it... That's like 2 weeks of lease payments for me


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

It is a familiar tactic of lawyers and other so inclined seedy individuals, when faced with a question where they know the answer is not to their liking, to instead "answer" it with another question.

As the originator of this post, I posed a question to BMW and its dealers. A rather simple question that would apply to those who have taken delivery of their vehicle, those who might be waiting for their vehicle, and those who may be considering the purchase of such an appointed vehicle. There was no need to make "assumptions" on your part, as these were not germane to the question at hand, and were INCORRECT. I have not consumated a deal for a 5 series vehicle.

Furthermore, you never never answered the original questions, before finding yourself "done". Prostitution of ones principles for "team BMW" must make you feel quite good about yourself and your vehicle.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

rumatt said:


> Why won't you answer his questions? :dunno:


I have.

But the real question is: why has he (and more importantly) BMW, refused to answer the ORIGINAL questions ?

I think we know why.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Excuse me, but please help me to understand the problem here. The pictures which Mojojo posted on the first post , are showing two interior trims.

What was promised and *where* was this promised ? I have press photos of the E60 with beige interior and aluminum trim too.

I have also noticed that the lighting in the below pic is different than the one on the above (in the photos posted on the thread on the 'Fly). The photo above have probably been shot in a studio with professional lighting and photo equipment, where was the gray interior photo made ? This makes a *huge* difference too, IMO.

And also how can we judge the quality of something by looking at the pictures ?

Here are two more photos for evaluation. One with beige and wood trim, the other gray and alu trim.


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> Excuse me, but please help me to understand the problem here. The pictures which Mojojo posted on the first post , are showing two interior trims.
> 
> What was promised and *where* was this promised ? I have press photos of the E60 with beige interior and aluminum trim too.
> 
> Here are two more photos for evaluation. One with beige and wood trim, the other gray and alu trim.


And this goes to my point above about BMW offering different trim levels on the various models within the series.
The 525 is certainly going to have different trim levels thatn the 545 or M5. Do we know what E60 he is complaining about?


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

I hate to break it to you MojoJojo, but most of the people here don't work for BMW, and they are not the type who think BMW can do no wrong. These same people regularly b!tch and complain about many aspects of BMW, both in terms of how it designs it's cars, and how they treat their customers. 

If you can't convince them there is a problem, then good luck with BMWNA. You can pretend they're biased and call them lawyers if it makes you feel better, but it hurts your cause more than helping it. If you want to argue your point more strongly, you should wait until you calm down and then address their questions / comments with less attitude.

By the way, a lot of people are disappointed with BMW for not making a nicer interior on the E60. But what you're arguing (that BMW deceived people and didn't deliver what it owes people) is a totally different story.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> Excuse me, but please help me to understand the problem here. The pictures which Mojojo posted on the first post , are showing two interior trims.
> 
> What was promised and *where* was this promised ? I have press photos of the E60 with beige interior and aluminum trim too.


I would be happy to help you understand.

In the US market, ALL promotional brochures for the "new 5" included images of the wood trim on dash, center console AND ALL DOOR HANDLES. In fact, BMW touts it with close-up imaging claiming an "elegant mix of rich materials" etc.

All 545i vehicles were to come with the brown "poplar" wood trim unless the customer prefered the black "anthracite" wood trim which was a no-cost option. In fact, the titanium trim was not offered in this model.

The aluminum trim is not an option in the USA for any 5-series model.

Lastly, the "titanium" plastic trim is standard on base 525 and 530 models.

What BMW has done in the US and possibly other markets, is place the base "titanium" trim on the door handles of 545i vehicles. This was done without customer knowledge or consent. Some may have wished to change their interior color options, but were never given the chance. Their cars came with wood trim on the dash and titanium trim on the nearby door handles.

Surely you would agree that when every BMW brochure picture and descriptor for the interior of these vehicles specifies wood trim all-the-way-around, that customers would reasonably expect the car to come appointed in this way ....

And where is BMW on this issue ? Why do they not provide a $65,000.00 vehicle as promised ? Why should otherwise loyal customers paying this amount have to struggle with BMW to have this problem addressed ? 
These are the first questions asked in the original post, and the questions that still remain to be answered.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Mojojo, thanks for the clarification. Now I got it.

Is wood trim on the door handles an option ?


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## Lomag (Jul 17, 2003)

What's all this rambling about? :dunno: 

Initial models got delivered with titanium trim on the door handles if they had ordered poplar trim on the dash. BMW corrected this over a month ago and it was almost only dealer demo's that were affected, only some customer cars.

The anthracite trim still comes with the titanium on the door handles. BMW is not hiding anything. This was well announced everywhere. They state anthracite trim should be fully available as of the 1st quarter of 2004 in the E60 brochure. It's right there.

Now, haven't we learned that buying the first year model is often not the wise choice to make? You made the choice to buy it, BMW didn't force you to buy it. Buying the first year model is bad, buying the first months production is even worse.

Stop the b!tching. You sound like one of the trolls from roadfly who is trying to infect these boards.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> Mojojo, thanks for the clarification. Now I got it.
> 
> Is wood trim on the door handles an option ?


No, the standard 545i vehicle is supposed to come with wood trim, the only issue for prospective US buyers is whether you want it in brown burl or black anthracite.

BMW is just not delivering them as they promised.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Lomag said:


> This was well announced everywhere. They state anthracite trim should be fully available as of the 1st quarter of 2004 in the E60 brochure. It's right there.
> 
> Now, haven't we learned that buying the first year model is often not the wise choice to make? You made the choice to buy it, BMW didn't force you to buy it. Buying the first year model is bad, buying the first months production is even worse.
> 
> .


"Well announced everywhere".. ? Really? I guess that is why so many of the other posters here (even a moderator) are not aware of this problem and the issues surrounding it. Did BMW notify customers of the changes made to their vehicles on-order as well ? The fact is that the BMW brochure available to buyers and dealers (until possibly very recently) clearly displays wood trim on the door handles.

http://e60.doit.wisc.edu/releases/b...ochure_US/E60_Sales_Brochure_US-Images/20.jpg

Please provide the documentation of this formal announcement, and be so kind as to include its date of release. If you would be gracious enough to provide details of customer notification too. Such glasnost practiced by BMW would be commendable (only problem is that it NEVER happened).

If for the sake of arguement, BMW indeed intends to resolve this error by the first quarter of 2004, would you not agree that they should correct the problem for customers who took delivery of their vehicles already ? This is Ethics 101 people (a class that BMW, and evidently several here, appears to have soundly failed) .

Let me get this straight: BMW's most loyal customers who place early orders for their vehicles deserve to be shortchanged, mislead, and ridiculed ? Thanks for that tender BMW moment. I guess such faith in BMW is misguided, and those who place such orders have given BMW implied consent for such abuse.

And alas, the questions I posed throughout this post remain unanswered.


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## Lomag (Jul 17, 2003)

Why would they know about the problems? Apparently they aren't interested in purchasing the car now so why should they even care? Apparently they don't care, again, why should they?

The poplar wood trim is not debatable any longer. They fixed that last month already. Poplar wood which is the standard trim on the 545 comes on both the dash and the door handles.

The only problem now is the anthracite trim and that is clearly stated that it would be available as of the 1st quarter of 2004 so it you order it before hand you will get the titanium on the door handles. You are well aware of it.

When I went to my dealer the first thing he told me was the door handle issue and secondly the reflector issue which were clearly visable problems on the demo car they had. BMW isn't hiding anything although I do wish these problems would have been corrected before they launched this car.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Lomag said:


> Why would they know about the problems? Apparently they aren't interested in purchasing the car now so why should they even care? Apparently they don't care, again, why should they?
> 
> The poplar wood trim is not debatable any longer. They fixed that last month already. Poplar wood which is the standard trim on the 545 comes on both the dash and the door handles.
> 
> ...


In addition to not providing the documentation of your emphatic statements ( "well announced everywhere" & "They state anthracite trim should be fully available as of the 1st quarter of 2004") you haven't provided details regarding customer notification. Surely you aren't generalizing your anecdotal dealer experience to what has occurred throught the USA ! (or are you ?).

I posted the BMW brochure proudly displaying the wood door trim that dealers and buyers used to place orders for this vehicle earlier this year
http://e60.doit.wisc.edu/releases/b...S-Images/20.jpg
(I guess you conveniently forgot to peruse this).

You haven't even answered the basic questions posed in my posts.

What is really funny is this: how do you explain the FACT that poplar trim is the "standard" wood trim on the dash and doors of the 545i vehicle, but if one had opted for the no-cost anthracite wood trim, you would recieve wood on the dash and titanium plastic on the doors. The titanium trim is NOT even standard on the 545i, and is available only as a special order in the 545i. 
Using BMW's logic here, one could order the titanium trim and receive a car with titanium dash and anthracite wood door trim !

BMW should correct their mistakes WHENEVER they have occurred. As I said before, this is Ethics 101.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

: popcorn:


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

wingspan said:


> : popcorn:


To the original poster:

You are entitled to your opinion, and you are entitled to be as upset as you want to be. However, I thought something was fishy about some of your claims, so I went in to my room and got a 5er brochure that I brought home several weeks ago (right around when the demos hit dealers), and lo and behold, on pp. 18-19, 20-21, 22-23, 70, there is a picture of a beige interior, with poplar trim on the dash and titanium trim on the doors.

Further, on the bottom of page 75, BMW clearly states (in bold print) that that specs shown in the brochure reflect configurations in place at the time of print, and that BMW reserves the right to make changes without notice in colors, materials, equipment, specifications, and models.

If a BMW representative specifically lied to you, then please offer us proof. From what I've seen, you are basing your info on initial product info released before the car was on US shores, and I'm sure that info clearly has a disclaimer in it as well.

This does not mean you do not have a reason to be dissatisfied with the current specs on the car. However, I don't feel you have provided evidence to justify your claim that BMW is deceiving you and offering untrue information.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

So the "new 5" brochure you "brought home" a few weeks ago has titanium trim and is over 75 pages in length. I'm sure everyone received their copy of this tome and read it cover to cover.

The US sale brochure was released by BMW in early to mid August 2003, and coincided with formal releases of standard equipment and available options. It was followed soon thereafter by official pricing, and orders for these vehicles were officially taken on September 2. 
EVERY and mean EVERY picture depicting the E60 door handles in this brochure display the wood trim. Please see for yourself:

here's one link :
http://e60.doit.wisc.edu/releases/brochures/us/E60_Sales_Brochure_US/E60_Sales_Brochure_US.html

here's another:
http://www.bmw545.com/e60_sales_brochure.pdf

Wouldn't you agree that customers who ordered their vehicles at this time should have been informed of the changes being made to their orders ? Don't you think BMW should assist these customers in obtaining the trim PROMISED in the brochure ?

Something certainly is "fishy". And the source of this stink is coming from BMW and its dealerships who have mislead some of their most faithful customers.

What is particularly sad is BMW's (and their dealerships) apparent course of action after these misleading events. Instead of trying to correct their problem, they resort to falling back on the fine print and disclaimers. Here's where "misleading" morphs into "deception".


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

MojoJojo said:


> What is particularly sad is BMW's (and their dealerships) apparent course of action after these misleading events. Instead of trying to correct their problem, they resort to falling back on the fine print and disclaimers. Here's where "misleading" morphs into "deception".


As others here have also attempted, trying to be realistic and take a look at this in a reasonable manner have failed. You think you are right, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, after this post, I will not contribute further to this thread, as I deem it worthless to do so. Your accusations that BMW has been deceiving consumers are going a bit too far, and I just can't say I agree with you.

Plus, any customer that had an issue with the trim in his/her ordered 5er could have passed on taking delivery, put delivery on hold until the trim was available, or made it part of the deal to swap the trim over when it was available. You can't say someone was deceived if he saw the trim with his own eyes and did nothing to rectify the situation if he was not satisfied.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

SARAFIL said:


> Plus, any customer that had an issue with the trim in his/her ordered 5er could have passed on taking delivery, put delivery on hold until the trim was available, or made it part of the deal to swap the trim over when it was available. You can't say someone was deceived if he saw the trim with his own eyes and did nothing to rectify the situation if he was not satisfied.


Yep.... at BMW it's always the customers fault.

It was the customer who placed the glossy pictures of wood trim in the 5-series buyers guide.

It was the customer whose extra-sensory perception failed when BMW decided to substitute plastic trim for wood in their flagship 5 vehicle.

And, of course, it was again the customer who did not check-in with the BMW factory, to find out that the car would not be built as he had ordered.

So this is how BMW rewards its core customers when they purchase a $65,000.00 top of the line 5-series vehicle. A sad sad state of affairs. I never insinuated a car should be returned or that BMW should owe compensatory damages. I have only suggested that BMW offer their affected customers a fix for what is quite obviously a problem of BMW's making. It is unbelievable the amount of resistance encountered in attempting to see if they would do what is ethical and just.

In retrospect, it was "unreasonable" of me to expect honest answers to ANY of my questions from BMW car salesmen. Despite the roundel badge some try to hide behind, at their core they are the same hucksters famous for lies and innuendo. I guess congratulations are in order: you and the parent company really duped quite a few folks this go around.


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## Terry Kennedy (Sep 21, 2002)

MojoJojo said:


> Yep.... at BMW it's always the customers fault. yadda yadda yadda


First, I have to say that my initial reaction is "Jeez, give it a rest". I believe you said you didn't purchase one of these cars, so I'm somewhat at a loss to understand why this is such a hot-button issue for you. However, in a possibly foolish attempt to engage in a meaningful dialog...

I am told that the issue with the poplar trim has been resolved, and the birch trim will be resolved by 01/04. Which means that if you ordered a car now, it will come with the correct trim.

The brochure which you so gleefully wave in our faces (from http://www.bmw545.com/e60_sales_brochure.pdf) says (at the bottom of page 40):

"_All illustrations and specifications contained in this brochure are based on the latest product information available at the time of printing. BMW reserves the right to make changes at any time, without notice, in colors, materials, equipment, specifications and models. ... Some vehicles pictured may contain non-US equipment. Some models may be shown with optional equipment. ..._"

The 3-series wagon brochure shows a 330 wagon, even though that isn't available in the US. This happens, particularly at model launch.

There was a poster here who was prepared to walk away from his ordered 5er based on the trim issue. I don't know if he worked it out with his dealer, but I would assume that most dealers would rather eat the cost of the trim pieces (assuming they can't get them free from BMW, which I'm not sure of) and tell the customer they'd swap the trim for free once the pieces the customer thought they were getting became available. Likewise, I'll make a leap and assume that the average customer would rather enjoy their new car with the "wrong" trim for a few months than hold off on buying until the "right" trim is available.

Sure, there is the occasional jerk dealer who can say "take it or leave it", but as the customer you have the final say and can always (in the US) decide to walk away from the deal and get your deposit back.

BMW could probably have handled this better, by doing something like putting a tag in each car saying "Oops, the trim you wanted wasn't available and we didn't want to hold up you order. Enclosed find a coupon for free replacement trim and installation once it is available, as well as $50 for you to purchase any BMW accessory at your dealer." They didn't do that, and that's a marketing decision. As a customer, I don't know why they didn't do that. I'm not even sure BMWNA knows - BMW AG often does things BMWNA doesn't understand.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Terry Kennedy said:


> However, in a possibly foolish attempt to engage in a meaningful dialog...
> 
> BMW could probably have handled this better, by doing something like putting a tag in each car saying "Oops, the trim you wanted wasn't available and we didn't want to hold up you order. Enclosed find a coupon for free replacement trim and installation once it is available, as well as $50 for you to purchase any BMW accessory at your dealer." They didn't do that, and that's a marketing decision. As a customer, I don't know why they didn't do that. I'm not even sure BMWNA knows - BMW AG often does things BMWNA doesn't understand.


Thank you for addressing the original questions and concerns posed in this post.

It is unfortunate that BMW representatives find it easier to assail the customer rather than assign ANY responsibility for such problems with BMW.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

I think I can understand both sides of the story. 

As for the fine print stating that BMW has the right to do whatever they want, I see that as poor excuse for notifying the customer. The only reason people within this thread found the "emergency exit" was because they hunted for it to teach Mojo a lesson.

The proper way for BMW to handle a situation of not having the parts required is to provide them as a complimentary retrofit for those customers who so desire them. The customer essentially paid for the entire set of trim (the parts) when he/she ordered the vehicle that includes it as standard. Since the logistics error of not having sufficient quantities of parts available at the start of production is only the fault of the manufactururer, BMW should pick up the labor cost involved in replacing the titanium trim. BMW is not Ford, and we should not expect Ford customer service.

Now, the power of actually accepting/rejecting a car with BMW's trim mistake is just like taking a car with any other defect. If you don't like it, you can just walk out with your check. Hell, even if you paid for the car at the dealer and signed all the papers, you can walk out. The sales agreement is not consumated until the customer drives the car off the lot. You are going to see what you get, and arrangements can always be made to either satisfy you or send you on your way without a new 545.


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## 01silber (Jun 28, 2002)

when I bought mine the brochure said "European options shown" in small print, I wish I could have gotten those options but I cant
why is the world still in a position to think that it deserves what ever it wants.
the brochure did not say that "this is the exact car mojo was getting" did
it?
If you have already spent the cash I do understand your position; truly I do, but I'm sure your dealer would change out the handles for free if you spent 65,000 with them, once the handles are available
i do hope that people buying the new acura don't think that the local city they are in will remove all the traffic for them so they can drive in a empty city at high speeds, or that the road appears in front of them while they are driving through the mountains e/g. another commercial
hope you get it all figured out
will you post pic of the car you bought???


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> I think I can understand both sides of the story.
> 
> As for the fine print stating that BMW has the right to do whatever they want, I see that as poor excuse for notifying the customer. The only reason people within this thread found the "emergency exit" was because they hunted for it to teach Mojo a lesson.
> 
> ...


Thank you for a moment of sanity here. I think you summed-up this issue quite well.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

01silber said:


> why is the world still in a position to think that it deserves what ever it wants.
> the brochure did not say that "this is the exact car mojo was getting" did
> it?
> If you have already spent the cash I do understand your position; truly I do, but I'm sure your dealer would change out the handles for free if you spent 65,000 with them, once the handles are available
> ...


I cannot speak to your complaint regarding "the fine print" as you have not explained the circumstances of your order. I do find it interesting that you brought it up. Are you implying that "fine print" and disclaimers are a frequently utilized ruse by BMW for cost-containment etc. ?

I can tell you that the BMW brochure states quite clearly that the 545i comes STANDARD with poplar wood trim and in EVERY picture depicts this trim on the doorhandles. The anthracite wood could be ordered to replace poplar trim, for those who want black wood grain instead of brown. It's that simple.

The gray plastic is not even an option in the 545i vehicle (nor is it standard) yet these cars come with it on the door handles. Go figure.

Lets see if BMW or its dealers replace this trim once it becomes available. That should be soon, as this trim is available and appropriately being placed in vehicles bound for the European market.

Care to make a guess on what BMW will do ?


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## 01silber (Jun 28, 2002)

Assuming you have purchased the car, then I'm sure they will retro the handles/trim to what you were expecting it to be
but for whatever reason the parts are not available right now, no amount of anger or demeaning remarks toward us here or BMW will make it happen, If you take the type of position with your dealer as you did here, Don't expect much of anything


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

MojoJojo said:


> Seems there are many upset with several facets of the 5 series.


who, besides yourself, is upset?


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

atyclb said:


> who, besides yourself, is upset?


I suggest you take a gander at E60 specific boards (eg: roadfly) and you will find there are quite a large number of individuals dissatisfied with MANY facets of this vehicle.


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> As for the fine print stating that BMW has the right to do whatever they want, I see that as poor excuse for notifying the customer. The only reason people within this thread found the "emergency exit" was because they hunted for it to teach Mojo a lesson.


I don't agree. The reason the fine print is relevant is because o fhis attitude that BMW didn't have the right to do what they did. . If he were just complaining about BMW and said "wow, I'm disappointed," then nobody would bring up the fine print, or jump on him they way they have.



MojoJojo said:


> Thank you for a moment of sanity here. I think you summed-up this issue quite well.


Convenient how you didn't quote the rest of his text from his post, or comment on it. And once again, :thumbdwn: for implying that any viewpoint other than your own is not sanity. :tsk:


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

MojoJojo said:


> It would appear that for some, the protection of the roundel takes precedence to truth and the concept of fair play.


:snooze:

Do you ever actually read any of the posts in this message board? These same people you you automatically assume are blind protectors of "the roundel" are often complaining about BMW, and criticize them sharply when appropriate.

You just can't accept that people don't agree with you, so it makes you feel better to pretend that they are BMW sales drones, even though they are not. You are pretty far from reality on this one.


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## xfactor (Nov 5, 2003)

I'm so glad that somebody found it necessary to top this thread after it had been long out of sight.

(Yes, I understand the irony in me now posting -- but it's at the top anyways.)


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

: popcorn:

This is the best thread ever. I gave it a 5 rating.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Terry Kennedy said:


> First, I have to say that my initial reaction is "Jeez, give it a rest". I believe you said you didn't purchase one of these cars, so I'm somewhat at a loss to understand why this is such a hot-button issue for you. However, in a possibly foolish attempt to engage in a meaningful dialog...
> 
> I am told that the issue with the poplar trim has been resolved, and the birch trim will be resolved by 01/04. Which means that if you ordered a car now, it will come with the correct trim.
> 
> ...


Gawd, don't mention that, Terry.

Now he'll sue for the missing 500 cc 



> There was a poster here who was prepared to walk away from his ordered 5er based on the trim issue. I don't know if he worked it out with his dealer, but I would assume that most dealers would rather eat the cost of the trim pieces (assuming they can't get them free from BMW, which I'm not sure of) and tell the customer they'd swap the trim for free once the pieces the customer thought they were getting became available. Likewise, I'll make a leap and assume that the average customer would rather enjoy their new car with the "wrong" trim for a few months than hold off on buying until the "right" trim is available.
> 
> Sure, there is the occasional jerk dealer who can say "take it or leave it", but as the customer you have the final say and can always (in the US) decide to walk away from the deal and get your deposit back.


That (always refundable deposit) is good for US consumers but it also seriously restricts option availability. If BMW NA gets battered for every minor inconsistency (a month's production of titanium vs wood door handles) they will stop offering interior choices altogether to stay in the market and out of the courts.



> BMW could probably have handled this better, by doing something like putting a tag in each car saying "Oops, the trim you wanted wasn't available and we didn't want to hold up you order. Enclosed find a coupon for free replacement trim and installation once it is available, as well as $50 for you to purchase any BMW accessory at your dealer." They didn't do that, and that's a marketing decision. As a customer, I don't know why they didn't do that. I'm not even sure BMWNA knows - BMW AG often does things BMWNA doesn't understand.


I would have thought it to be BMW NA's decision, and responsibility, to make up any perceived shortfall with its customers. The titanium-trim thing has not even have broken surface outside of the US - no-one's as mentioned it on any board that I read, English language or otherwise. And as my Jul 2003 5er brochure clearly shows titanium door trims with the poplar dashboard, there's nothing any reasonable consumer could really do about it.

No doubt a re-print, or next year's brochure, will say something different. (And it won't be the only thing that's different - forget the bloody wood trim, has anyone tried to operate the electric windows in a new 5er? You have to use the opposite hand!)

FWIW a few magazines have already highlighted the trim mismatch between gear lever ("Ruthenium") and the poplar wood dashboard. BMW says it's to match the i-Drive knob. I wonder if that was the idea with the metal door handles, only the trim people decided it didn't work?


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

swchang said:


> : popcorn:
> 
> This is the best thread ever. I gave it a 5 rating.


Ditto, *and* its good for my language skills, despite the bleed through of posts from my ignore list (which I promise I only checked this thread today to make sure it worked with the new board software. Honest. :angel: )

rich


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

MojoJojo said:


> "Ignore"-ance is a talet perfected by some here, and you appear to be the master.
> 
> Such spineless retorts to an obvious issue of negligent ethics and customer care from BMW displays what pathetic lengths some individuals will go to supporting their brand no matter what. BMW has hooked a few suckers to be sure. I half-way expect such nonsense from some the 3-series owners as many of them purchased the entry class roundel logo and the "good vibrations" they believe it confers to them. These individuals (yes you know who you are) will defend their purchase at all costs, as anything that deflates their esteemed view of BMW, in turn deflates them.
> 
> Maybe if a few of you drink your milk and read a bit on the topic of honesty and customer service, you too can shed your notochord and join us vertebrates.


Actually, no. I've not been called on, in person at least, to defend my car purchasing decision (a car so low down the BMW chain there are TWO others further up in the range BEFORE you get to the US "entry-level" flavour). Besides, I don't get any vibrations at all; one of good things about a BMW. Any BMW, including the pauper's varieties.

Defence implies some form of attack; if you come up to me and attack me for buying the car that I did, then I will simply respond in kind, only three times as hard, to make sure you appreciate what kind of effect your egregious personal negativity has. And the world will be a slightly poorer place for that person having such a terrible issue with the car I drive.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> I will simply respond in kind, only three times as hard.


There seems to be little else harder than your head.

Once again, the issue here is simple. Let me spell it out for the umpteenth time:

BMW promised wood door trim.

BMW substituted unsightly plastic trim in its place, and did not notify their customers.

BMW should correct this error for those customers who desire it.

You cant tell me that a person who has taken an international flight to germany for ED delivery has a real option of walking away when BMW pulls this BAIT & SWITCH deception, do you. This is an issue of quality, attention to detail, customer service, and ultimately right vs. wrong. I'm _*right*_; and BMW has done _*wrong*_ to their customers.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> Actually, no. I've not been called on, in person at least, to defend my car purchasing decision (a car so low down the BMW chain there are TWO others further up in the range BEFORE you get to the US "entry-level" flavour). Besides, I don't get any vibrations at all; one of good things about a BMW. Any BMW, including the pauper's varieties.
> 
> Defence implies some form of attack; if you come up to me and attack me for buying the car that I did, then I will simply respond in kind, only three times as hard, to make sure you appreciate what kind of effect your egregious personal negativity has. And the world will be a slightly poorer place for that person having such a terrible issue with the car I drive.


Hey Andy, have you still got spineless retorts in the UK? I had one once when I lived there and man, was it salty. I mean really, it was up there with Jellied Eel, know what I mean? And tell me, is there really no cure for Spotted Dick?

l8ter....rich


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

MojoJojo said:


> There seems to be little else harder than your head.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

MojoJojo said:


> BMW promised wood door trim.


 No they didn't.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Plaz said:


> No they didn't.


The 2004 US BMW Brochure and all dealership information available for orders placed in early September 2003 quite CLEARLY show that INDEED they DID.

BMW even went so far as to picture a close-up of the wood door trim while patting themselves on the back as they described the sumptuous interior of the E60 and its craftsmanship. Now that's a joke if I ever heard one !


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

MojoJojo said:


> The 2004 US BMW Brochure and all dealership information available for orders placed in early September 2003 quite CLEARLY show that INDEED they DID.


That's not a promise. In fact, there was an explicit disclaimer.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

MojoJojo said:


> There seems to be little else harder than your head.
> 
> Once again, the issue here is simple. Let me spell it out for the umpteenth time:
> 
> ...


Great - thanks for summarising your initial post. Now, why did you start having a go at owners of lesser BMWs?


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

wingspan said:


> Hey Andy, have you still got spineless retorts in the UK? I had one once when I lived there and man, was it salty. I mean really, it was up there with Jellied Eel, know what I mean? And tell me, is there really no cure for Spotted Dick?
> 
> l8ter....rich


We do have spineless retorts, but if someone has a go at us for being unable to afford rich men's things, we tend to lay into them. Less reliance on money as a way of self-improvement, if you see what I mean, but not as bad as some other Europeans


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> We do have spineless retorts, but if someone has a go at us for being unable to afford rich men's things, we tend to lay into them. Less reliance on money as a way of self-improvement, if you see what I mean, but not as bad as some other Europeans


Roger that. Well, we have an extra spineless retort we'll be glad to send over to you in the UK and you can deal with it as you wish! cheers...


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

Plaz said:


> That's not a promise. In fact, there was an explicit disclaimer.


Indeed it is a promise. A disclaimer does not absolve the vendor from certain responsibilities.

But I think I understand your point:

BMW need not keep ANY promise it has made, as there is always a fine print disclaimer buried somewhere that allows them to not do the right thing.

Great company you pander to.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

MojoJojo said:


> Indeed it is a promise. A disclaimer does not absolve the vendor from certain responsibilities.
> 
> But I think I understand your point:
> 
> ...


 :rofl:

I swear, you're more fun than an oversized pair of BVD's full of live fish!


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

MojoJojo said:


> But I think I understand your point:
> 
> BMW need not keep ANY promise it has made, as there is always a fine print disclaimer buried somewhere that allows them to not do the right thing.


I don't think this summarizes his point of view, given that he said he doesn't think they made a promise!

Plaz, I'm hoping the large font will help.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

this is STILL going???

he should join up with Named Plaintiff and pool resources...

:loco:


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

rumratt said:


> he doesn't think they made a promise!


Actually, that should read: he doesn't think !.

Describes plaz to a tee.


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

Good lord, why did you awaken this thread.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

rumratt said:


> Good lord, why did you awaken this thread.


Found it performing a search that someone suggested...and thought I'd be belatedly helpful.


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## Cliff (Apr 19, 2002)

berford said:


> Found it performing a search that someone suggested...and thought I'd be belatedly helpful.


Why the microfiche-sized attachment then? What does it say?


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Cliff3 said:


> Why the microfiche-sized attachment then? What does it say?


I had to reduce it to fit before it would load when I posted it earlier. Let me try again.

Edit: I worked...click on image to read.


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## MojoJojo (Oct 10, 2003)

*Salutations*

Salutations ye olde Knights of the Roundel !

Seems like BMW learned a few things about customer service over the years. There's a whole lot more begging for "5 stars" than in days gone by.

History, of course, is the final arbiter in many a dispute and has proven the righteousness of my point again and again.

I see many a denizen of these environs now bandies about a moniker calling back to this original thread! Many a "Sir", "Duke" and even "lord" can be found. Glad to provide some amusement !

Strength and Honor...


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## Ågent99 (Jan 7, 2002)

I don't think we need to rewaken this...locked...and still loaded!


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