# 330i with SMG



## jw (Dec 21, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *
> I think last I heard from Shafer, his dealership sells about 10% stick to auto. *


That's probably a good estimate. The US long ago shunned manual transmissions for the general populous.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *DUUDE! He meant that 23.5% of all BMW sold comes to the United States, not 23.5% of all BMW in U.S. is stick. We still don't have that figure tied down...
> 
> I think last I heard from Shafer, his dealership sells about 10% stick to auto. *


OK. That includes the 7er, which has no manual available, the X5, which only comes with a manual in the little engine, and the 5er, which definitely has a smaller percentage of sticks sold than the 3er (for some reason, people equate big cars with automatics).

Anyway, I have also seen the 35% stick/auto ratio for the 3er that Nate referenced. Don't have time to dig up the cite right now, but I have no reason to doubt that it is correct. I recall that number vividly, because I remember Lexus saying that they were only anticipating a 10ish percent take rate on their manual in the IS300, and it didn't make sense to me that a more "sports oriented" car would ship fewer manuals (I wrote a letter to Automobile about this at some point).

Anyway, some huge percentage (80? 90?) of BMWs are pre-sold (i.e., ordered), so the fact that most dealer stock cars are automatic means nothing at all.


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## DaveN323i (Jan 17, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *VOB here has plenty of manuals on the lot. CA is just full of pansies.
> 
> That said, from what I've heard, SMG/SSG isn't that good, anyhow. *


Whatever. Bring your stick over here and I'll direct you to a street in San Francisco. Don't blame me if white smoke comes out of your car and stench your nice leather.

Having had a manual for 15 years, I no longer want that kind of masochist commute.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *I think last I heard from Shafer, his dealership sells about 10% stick to auto. *


And those are all custom-ordered... he orders NO stick-equipped cars for the lot.


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by The HACK
> I think last I heard from Shafer, his dealership sells about 10% stick to auto.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> And those are all custom-ordered... he orders NO stick-equipped cars for the lot.:


Not surprising. Folks who buy sticks are probably the more serious drivers, overall, and are likely to want to place a custom order anyway. The folks who just go looking and are "ready to buy today" from whatever is on the lot are probably happy, for the most part, to buy an auto.

Hack's earlier point is basically right. Even if 20% of the 3ers sold are sticks (since all the 7ers and most of the 5ers are autos), that's still a pretty narrow market for the SMG, especially when it would add $1-2k to the price (at least).

Would I like to see SMG as an option? Yes. Can I understand why BMW doesn't offer it here? Yes. Too bad, but that's business. BMW isn't a charity.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

This is sort of a foolish argument. I test drove a stick 323, 325 and 330i from my dealer before I ordered my car. I guess this must mean that every dealer stocks manual transmission cars and the percentage is higher, right? They order what they think they can sell. In some markets, that will include more manuals than others. The dealership I just went to for service had a fine selection of manuals on the lot.

Besides that, what does how many manuals are sold have to do with SMG? SMG is an automatic with manual like options (bear with me here, SMG lovers, I'm not attacking the transmission). It will replace the step tronic, not the manual. Sure, some drivers who currently drive manuals and want faster shifting and track times are going to go with SMG, but a lot of manual drivers (myself included) are not. I don't care if it's faster and better, I want to operate my own clutch. However, step drivers just got a bonus without having to give anything up - automatic mode and semi-manual mode. So the appeal is to a much broader market than the manual segment imo.


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## Brashland (Nov 20, 2002)

When searching for my BMW criteria #1 was NO AUTOMATIC.
#2 was convertible
#3 was no black interior
#4 was NO AUTOMATIC. 

If I wanted a go cart I would have bought one.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

rwg said:


> *This is sort of a foolish argument. I test drove a stick 323, 325 and 330i from my dealer before I ordered my car. I guess this must mean that every dealer stocks manual transmission cars and the percentage is higher, right? They order what they think they can sell. In some markets, that will include more manuals than others. The dealership I just went to for service had a fine selection of manuals on the lot.
> 
> Besides that, what does how many manuals are sold have to do with SMG? SMG is an automatic with manual like options (bear with me here, SMG lovers, I'm not attacking the transmission). It will replace the step tronic, not the manual. Sure, some drivers who currently drive manuals and want faster shifting and track times are going to go with SMG, but a lot of manual drivers (myself included) are not. I don't care if it's faster and better, I want to operate my own clutch. However, step drivers just got a bonus without having to give anything up - automatic mode and semi-manual mode. So the appeal is to a much broader market than the manual segment imo. *


First of all, the only MANUAL E46es I can test drive on dealer lots when I bought my car were USED cars. Los Angeles dealers (especially around where I live) just simply do NOT order stick shifts.

Secondly, SMG is a MANUAL with automatic like options, period. It does not shift like a automatic, it has a clutch, and when you let your foot off the brake it does not lurch forward like an automatic. In fact the operation of SMG is a lot closer to what a manual gearbox is like than it is to an automatic. Get that straight.

Having said that, no, SMG will not cut into automatic sales or replace automatic sales because BMW knows as a transmission, it fails miserably trying to imitate an automatic. The shifts are HARSH, happens at predetermined RPM and engine load (unlike slushies), and 10X more complicated to operate than an auto. Now, if you're a perspective buyer looking to get a new car and you do not know how to drive a manual, would you pay $1,200 for a steptronic, or would you pay $2,000 for an SMG that's harder to operate and does NOT improve in anyway your driving experience? SMG will share its market with manuals, not autos...Thus it should be factored into the fact that U.S. sales account for ~25% of all BMW sales, and out of that ~30% (giving the benefit of doubt) are stick shift...That's about 8% of total BMW sales. On top of that about 50% of that can possibly be SMG sales (previous SMG sales figure from Europe on E36 M3 w/ SMG). That's a total of 4% of overall BMW 3 series sales in the U.S. that can POSSIBLY be SMG. It's not going to be a money making option for them at all. Compare that to Europe, where about 50% of all cars sold are manuals (probably a higher percentage for 3 series) then you're staring at approximately 10% of 3 series sold are equipped with SMG. That makes a lot more sense to make than a 4% margin.

p.s.: If you run that figure again with a 10% sale being manuals in U.S., then you're staring at a 1 car out of 100 being SMG. The numbers are stacked against U.S. getting SMG, Step, and Manual on the 3 series in the near future.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

The HACK said:


> * [snip]
> Secondly, SMG is a MANUAL with automatic like options, period. It does not shift like a automatic, it has a clutch, and when you let your foot off the brake it does not lurch forward like an automatic. In fact the operation of SMG is a lot closer to what a manual gearbox is like than it is to an automatic. Get that straight.
> 
> Having said that, no, SMG will not cut into automatic sales or replace automatic sales because BMW knows as a transmission, it fails miserably trying to imitate an automatic. [snip] *


Factually, I am absolutely certain you are correct about what the smg feels like and how it operates. I am certain about this for two reasons: you know these things (and probably have a complete understanding of the mechanics and software behind the SMG); and you have probably driven one and I haven't.

Nonetheless, the smg has an automatic mode. It just does. It doesn't have clutch operated by the driver. I know that people like my father would love to have such a thing (although he hasn't driven one yet either, as far as I know, he likes the idea). I know that people like me will buy a Honda before we give up the clutch pedal. So it seems logical to me that the transmission will appeal more to "automatic" people and "gotta have the best performance numbers at any cost" people more than "I like using a clutch pedal" people.

For all I know, I am completely wrong in that assessment, BMW has studied this and determined your opinion is correct, and has no plans to bring the SMG to non /M cars in the U.S. (or worse yet, intends to replace the manual transmission with SMG across all lines). I have no disagreement with your numerical analysis. If it competes with manuals, it's a costly proposition for them. I am just not convinced that it competes with manuals. Driving feel aside, the most important aspect of the transmission to automatic users that I know is not having to use a clutch.

As for your dealer not ordering manual transmission cars for the lot, that was the point. My dealer in Chicago did. The dealer down the street from me here apparently does. Your dealer does not. They buy what they think they can sell. Apparently some dealers think they can sell manuals and some don't.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

rwg said:


> *...snip...
> 
> Nonetheless, the smg has an automatic mode. It just does. It doesn't have clutch operated by the driver. I know that people like my father would love to have such a thing (although he hasn't driven one yet either, as far as I know, he likes the idea). I know that people like me will buy a Honda before we give up the clutch pedal. So it seems logical to me that the transmission will appeal more to "automatic" people and "gotta have the best performance numbers at any cost" people more than "I like using a clutch pedal" people.
> 
> ...


We're mostly in agreement. I have driven the SMG and let me tell you, despite the AUTO mode, it doesn't drive anything like a real automatic. There simply isn't the smooth gear shifts, the the predictable upshift/downshift matched to your pedal movement, the surge of RPM before the car actually takes off...It's like the reverse of Steptronic. The Step is an Automatic that adequately approximates a manual. The SMG is a manual that MIMICS an automatic. Quite frankly, neither one does the other all that well...So for an automatic buyer there's little incentive to pay extra for another transmission that doesn't do the job of an automatic nearly as well as a real automatic, just like for manual buyers, steptronic mode will never measure up to a real manual.

On the topic of the dealerships in my area, unfortunately I do live in an area where the majority of the buyers don't even know another transmission option exist outside of an AUTOMATIC.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

> So it seems logical to me that the transmission will appeal more to "automatic" people and "gotta have the best performance numbers at any cost" people more than "I like using a clutch pedal" people


SMG is marketed and actually best suited for people that go to track and want to race their cars as it doesn't drive anything like automatic, "automatic" people would be very disapointed and it posts worse numbers at drag strip than regular manual and "gotta have the best performance numbers at any cost" people won't be happy either.
Don't be fooled by SMG having an auto mode. It's there because it's easy to do it but I doubt that many people actually use it.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

I hereby withdraw all previously expressed opinions about the SMG and its target market. If I ever have the opportunity to drive a car equiped with the SMG transmission, I will then form opinions that are based on experience instead of magazine articles.


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## Axcu (Dec 19, 2002)

*300-series SMG in Europe..*

Guys I don't want to be rude, but currently only the M3 here in Europe has the fabled SMG (II) paddle-shift gears.

The current other models of 300-series (I trust 325/330 only) have an option of an SSG (Sequential Shift Gearbox), which is quite similar to the SMG II, but it is the poor man's version; and thus, also slower in shifting: Normal-mode, shift takes 400-500ms, Sport-mode 250-300ms (less smooth) and Launch-mode, 150ms for 1st to 2nd gear. Also, to my knowledge the SMG is manufactured by Siemens and the SSG is made by Magneti-Marelli (maker of Alfa Romeo's Selespeed and Ferrari's F1 system). The main point here is also that SMG is for the 6-speed and SSG for the 5-speed box.

On the positive side though, I keep hearing that the real SMG would be 'coming' to the other models than M3 too...probably has something to do with the 6-speed gearbox coming to 300-series. However, yet again there are rumours of a 'boosted up' SSG-version too.

Don't know if you knew this already (being my first post here etc..), but the matter needed a little clarification.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: 300-series SMG in Europe..*



Axcu said:


> *Guys I don't want to be rude, but currently only the M3 here in Europe has the fabled SMG (II) paddle-shift gears.
> 
> The current other models of 300-series (I trust 325/330 only) have an option of an SSG (Sequential Shift Gearbox), which is quite similar to the SMG II, but it is the poor man's version; and thus, also slower in shifting: Normal-mode, shift takes 400-500ms, Sport-mode 250-300ms (less smooth) and Launch-mode, 150ms for 1st to 2nd gear. Also, to my knowledge the SMG is manufactured by Siemens and the SSG is made by Magneti-Marelli (maker of Alfa Romeo's Selespeed and Ferrari's F1 system). The main point here is also that SMG is for the 6-speed and SSG for the 5-speed box.
> 
> ...


SMG-II with drivelogic is what's equipped on somem E46 M3s.

SSG was the original name of the sequential transmission offered on the 3 series.

SMG is the name of the same SSG transmission that we're refering to here.

SMG-II = What comes on the M3s.

SMG = SSG

Hope that clears up the confusion...


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## bls (Sep 16, 2002)

Tanning machine said:


> *Would I like to see SMG as an option? Yes. Can I understand why BMW doesn't offer it here? Yes.*


I understand (and mostly believe) the arguments that SMG on an E46 would be a fairly low-seller, but I don't see why it therefore wouldn't be offered as an option. What's the cost? BMW already has assembly lines that can churn out SMG-equipped E46s for non-US sales. There shouldn't be any additional tooling or research costs.

They'd have to print another box on the US order form. They'd have to explain to their sales staff what SMG is, and train their mechanics to fix them, but they already have to do that for the M-series cars, right? It would cost dealers money to keep a non-seller sitting on the lot, but dealers (around here anyway) already have that problem with 5-speed models, and they solve it by not stocking any, and only getting them special-order.

What am I missing here? Suppose BMW offered it, and they only sold fifty of them in the US. How did they lose money by selling those cars?


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

bls said:


> *
> What am I missing here? Suppose BMW offered it, and they only sold fifty of them in the US. How did they lose money by selling those cars? *


IIRC, there's a rather expensive federal certification requirement for each chassis/tranny combo that has to be done.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I wonder how many members of this board would order their car with SMG/SSG if it was offered here in the US?

I have to say that my vote would go to regular manual.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

nc


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

*Re: 300-series SMG in Europe..*



Axcu said:


> *[snip](being my first post here etc..) [snip] *


Welcome to the board and thanks for inserting at least two cents.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

This is a quote from UK's BMWCar magazine, Septebmer '02 issue:
"Current take-up levels are at 9 percent for the Coupe and just 4 percent on the four door. That strikes me as low, but BMW will be broadening the number of models to offer SSG as an option in the coming months."

Those are UK numbers and they are really low, no wonder BMWNA doesn't want to bring it here.


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