# You're supposed to change rotors when you change brakes?



## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Because of their extremely strict laws regarding vehicle safety and maintenance , along with sophisticated and reliable quality assurance methods, I tend to trust parts sourced in Europe.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

DSXMachina said:


> Because of their extremely strict laws regarding vehicle safety and maintenance , along with sophisticated and reliable quality assurance methods, I tend to trust parts sourced in Europe.


Absolutely correct....if a part (particularly brake & suspension components) does`nt meet strict TUV standards, it`s probably best to avoid it. I have had good experience with Balo rotors....they`re one of the few manufacturers that owns their own foundry, and control every aspect of production, from the initial casting, proper heat-treating, and precision machining to insure you get a top-quality component. They`re also reasonably priced, typically around $60 each from online suppliers. One caveat: they DO tend to rust, so if you care about having nice-looking rotors, it would`nt be a bad idea to mask them off and shoot the hats with some VHT paint before installation.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Fast Bob said:


> Absolutely correct....if a part (particularly brake & suspension components) does`nt meet strict TUV standards, it`s probably best to avoid it. I have had good experience with Balo rotors....they`re one of the few manufacturers that owns their own foundry, and control every aspect of production, from the initial casting, proper heat-treating, and precision machining to insure you get a top-quality component. They`re also reasonably priced, typically around $60 each from online suppliers. *One caveat: they DO tend to rust, so if you care about having nice-looking rotors, it would`nt be a bad idea to mask them off and shoot the hats with some VHT paint before installation*.


I've got 10K miles and 1 1/2 NH winters on my coupe and the only thing I've had to 'fix' were the oem rotors! They can be clearly seen inside the wheels and they were all 50-75% rust coated in the non-swept area. They looked disgusting. I took them off, glass bead blasted them, and sprayed them with VHT silver. They look brand new again!


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

DSXMachina said:


> I've got 10K miles and 1 1/2 NH winters on my coupe and the only thing I've had to 'fix' were the oem rotors! They can be clearly seen inside the wheels and they were all 50-75% rust coated in the non-swept area. They looked disgusting. I took them off, glass bead blasted them, and sprayed them with VHT silver. They look brand new again!


I know (grins)....IMHO, nice wheels really improve a car`s appeal, but crusty rotors are totally out of place., spoiling the whole look...


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Fast Bob said:


> I know (grins)....IMHO, nice wheels really improve a car`s appeal, but crusty rotors are totally out of place., spoiling the whole look...


I was under a lot of pressure to paint my calipers (Brembo) red when I was doing the rotors, but I resisted. I don't want to look like a poser.
The guy who was leaning on me the most drives a turbo charged Camaro. I have to admit his car is scarey fast, but at the end of the day it's still a Camaro... He hates it when I tell him that.


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## The BoatMan (Apr 2, 2002)

Turning, resurfacing, whatever you want to call it is 100% LABOR. Even if it is 20% cheaper than new rotors, it is 100% profit. I'd go for the new rotors. My 2 cents. Throw it out. I dont care but I'd choose the new rotors any day of the week.


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## jvr826 (Apr 22, 2002)

wingspan said:


> For my car, a pair of front rotors from e.g. www.autohausaz.com are: $66.95: http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pr...e & Wheel Hub&[email protected] Disc/Brake Rotor


That price is per rotor and they only sell in pairs, which makes sense obviously. I had to check cuz I pay about $129 at Bimmerworld for a pair of OEM front rotors and thought $67 for a pair was quite the deal.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

The BoatMan said:


> Turning, resurfacing, whatever you want to call it is 100% LABOR. Even if it is 20% cheaper than new rotors, it is 100% profit. I'd go for the new rotors. My 2 cents. Throw it out. I dont care but I'd choose the new rotors any day of the week.


Hi BoatMan. Labor isn't free. My techs average $46/hr with fringes and benefits. Throw in my administrative and tax costs and they're well over $50/hr. That is real money and that is their cost to me per hour worked. It takes us about 20 minutes to measure, mount, turn (at least 2 cuts per rotor) and solvent wash a rotor. In addition I have electricity, insurance, maintenance/repair, and depreciation costs for my Hofman brake lathe. Basically it costs ME about $20 to turn each rotor. I charge $30 to $35 per rotor. Most Bimmers get out of here at $30.
That's a 33% margin. One day you may learn that a 33% average margin will result in a business failing. Fortunately we have much higher margins for other types of work, and certainly for parts. If you take away the profit motive then two things will happen. BMW will no longer make cars, and garages will no longer fix cars.
If you "choose the new rotors any day of the week" then that's your choice and I have no argument with that. But if you are doing it to avoid letting someone else make " 100% profit" I can only laugh.


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## Ghost-Flame (Jan 10, 2009)

Hey Guys and Girls,
I just bought a X5 with 80,000 miles on it. The brakes are good for about 10,000 more miles so I'm told. 

What does a brake job cost and what do th rotors cost... rough idea of course?


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

Ghost-Flame said:


> Hey Guys and Girls,
> I just bought a X5 with 80,000 miles on it. The brakes are good for about 10,000 more miles so I'm told.
> 
> What does a brake job cost and what do th rotors cost... rough idea of course?


Don`t know about the X5, but for an E46, you can buy a complete parts "set" from one of the `fest sponsors (or just about any online supplier), all 4 wheels, for around $300-325....figure around 2 hours labor for an experienced mechanic (independents usually get from $65 to $95 per hour, depending on location). Dealers typically quote $1000 to $1200 for a 4-wheel brake job, you can cut that in half if you`re smart....(or cut it by 75% if you`re a DIY kind of guy)


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## gtxragtop (Feb 25, 2008)

DSXMachina said:


> Hi BoatMan. Labor isn't free. My techs average $46/hr with fringes and benefits. Throw in my administrative and tax costs and they're well over $50/hr. That is real money and that is their cost to me per hour worked. It takes us about 20 minutes to measure, mount, turn (at least 2 cuts per rotor) and solvent wash a rotor. In addition I have electricity, insurance, maintenance/repair, and depreciation costs for my Hofman brake lathe. Basically it costs ME about $20 to turn each rotor. I charge $30 to $35 per rotor. Most Bimmers get out of here at $30.
> That's a 33% margin. One day you may learn that a 33% average margin will result in a business failing. Fortunately we have much higher margins for other types of work, and certainly for parts. If you take away the profit motive then two things will happen. BMW will no longer make cars, and garages will no longer fix cars.
> If you "choose the new rotors any day of the week" then that's your choice and I have no argument with that. But if you are doing it to avoid letting someone else make " 100% profit" I can only laugh.


Well it is 100% GROSS profit. Some folks seem to forget that it costs real $$$ buy special equipment, pay employees, insurance, heat, taxes, and so on. Hey, if BoatMan is a good mechanic perhaps he will work for you for free with no benefits. This way you can lower your labor rate. :angel:


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## vocalthought (May 5, 2008)

Look at it this way. This is how it works out for the shop labor if you turn rotors.

1) 60K miles: Brake pad change + turn rotors = labor to a)take off rotors b) turn rotor c) put rotor back
2) 90K miles: Brake pad worn halfway, rotor worn down to minimum you bring to shop, shop says change rotor only = labor to a)take off rotors b) put rotor back on
3) 120K miles: brake pad change + turn rotors = a) take off rotors b) turn rotor c) put back rotor

vs if you change rotors every time you do pads.

1) 60K miles: brake and rotor change = labor to a)take off rotors b) put rotor back
2) 120K miles: brake pad change + rotor change = labor to a) take off rotors b) put back rotor
.
.
.

See where the shop gets its additional labor charges? This is exactly why the shop always recommends turning the rotors down! Paying for new rotors does not feed the employees, paying to turn rotors does. Yes, now you see why shop owners like to attack people who recommend just changing the rotors. :thumbdwn:

Sorry shop owners, I rather get a set of new rotors than pay for an additional unnecessary shop trip.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

jvr826 said:


> That price is per rotor and they only sell in pairs, which makes sense obviously. I had to check cuz I pay about $129 at Bimmerworld for a pair of OEM front rotors and thought $67 for a pair was quite the deal.


Whoopsies!  My bad. Trust me to read the fine print next time...


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

vocalthought said:


> Look at it this way. This is how it works out for the shop labor if you turn rotors.
> 
> 1) 60K miles: Brake pad change + turn rotors = labor to a)take off rotors b) turn rotor c) put rotor back
> 2) 90K miles: Brake pad worn halfway, rotor worn down to minimum you bring to shop, shop says change rotor only = labor to a)take off rotors b) put rotor back on
> ...


Hi Vocalthought. Here's where your logic breaks down; you don't figure in the bottom line costs which make it very attractive to many customers to cut rotors rather than replace rotors.
Example: First front brake job on the average Bimmer. I slap in a new set of pads and turn the rotors (we also disassemble and clean and grease the caliper slides, clean the caliper mounts and all kinds of other stuff but we do that in both examples I'll give).
Pad set $80, 2 rotors cut at $30 ea. = $60., plus 1.6 hrs @ $82/hr. = $131.20. Total cost to the customer is $271.20.
You come in and ask for new rotors. No problem with that if that's what you want. Here's your bill.
Pad set $80, 2 new rotors @$140. ea. = $280., plus the same labor $131.20. Total cost to you is $491.20.
Personally I just MADE A LOT MORE MONEY SELLING YOU A SET OF ROTORS that you insisted I install to keep me from ripping you off in the future. There isn't a shop owner in the world that wouldn't love you as a customer. Me included. I only have so much labor to sell but I can sell parts all day long.
I hope you don't consider this an "attack", I thought you might like to know what the facts are.


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## jvr826 (Apr 22, 2002)

DSXMachina said:


> 2 new rotors @$140. ea. = $280.


There's the problem right there.


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## The BoatMan (Apr 2, 2002)

DSXMachina said:


> Hi Vocalthought. Here's where your logic breaks down; you don't figure in the bottom line costs which make it very attractive to many customers to cut rotors rather than replace rotors.
> Example: First front brake job on the average Bimmer. I slap in a new set of pads and turn the rotors (we also disassemble and clean and grease the caliper slides, clean the caliper mounts and all kinds of other stuff but we do that in both examples I'll give).
> Pad set $80, 2 rotors cut at $30 ea. = $60., plus 1.6 hrs @ $82/hr. = $131.20. Total cost to the customer is $271.20.
> You come in and ask for new rotors. No problem with that if that's what you want. Here's your bill.
> ...


Why is there over a 50% markup, in your example, for the cost of the rotors? Why is labor the same amount of time? It should be less labor to change rotors as opposed to turning them. Your example is flawed.


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## The BoatMan (Apr 2, 2002)

...


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

The BoatMan said:


> Why is there over a 50% markup, in your example, for the cost of the rotors? Why is labor the same amount of time? It should be less labor to change rotors as opposed to turning them. Your example is flawed.


Ever try running a small business, Dude ? It really cracks me up that everybody assumes you`re rolling in dough because you own a business, when in truth, you`re a lot closer to being just another grunt who`s working twice the hours of a regular employee, plus you have the pleasure of taking the problems home with you at night....believe it or not, but the small business owner gets his balls squeezed on a regular basis, and these days, it`s a struggle to keep everything moving forward....


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

The BoatMan said:


> Why is there over a 50% markup, in your example, for the cost of the rotors? Why is labor the same amount of time? It should be less labor to change rotors as opposed to turning them. Your example is flawed.


Let me answer each of your questions.
*
Why is there over a 50% markup, in your example, for the cost of the rotors?*
I used an average rotor cost which unfortunately isn't even a 50% markup. A BMW OEM rotor for a 2002 530i nets at $114. A BMW OEM rotor for a 2007 335 E92 nets at $166. Please cut me some slack for using $140. in my example.
*Why is labor the same amount of time? It should be less labor to change rotors as opposed to turning them.* 
The labor IS the same amount of time. We don't charge $30 for turrning a rotor AND the cost of the labor. We only charge the $30.
*Your example is flawed*
I disagree.

BoatMan, you seem like a nice enough guy, but your understanding of how an honest, respected and professionally run business works is poor at best. If you want to keep spouting then be my guest, but if you really want to know how to run a business then you need to get some books or take a course. As for me, I'm done with this thread.


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## vocalthought (May 5, 2008)

DSXMachina, your example is flawed because you did not go thru the whole 60K,90K,120K estimate vs 60K, 120K only estimate. I totally understand why you recommend a rotor turn rather than a rotor replacement. A turned rotor will not last until the next pad change and a rotor turn needs shop experienced labor and equipment. As for the rotor replacement, most any shop can do it with a simple labor charge if one brings in an OEM rotor. My objective as a customer is to minimize trips to the service shop, yours is to maximize trips to the service shop.

I'm not saying that you should pay your workers less, labor should be paid, but you shouldn't be recommending a penny-wise, pound foolish solution to increase shop traffic. This is the issue that most people have with the service place. It increases the perception that mechanics are dishonest.


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