# MSD's Are Back in California for Returning Customers



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

CTSoxFan said:


> I assume having a lease previously with MSDs (a few years back) does not get you in under the grandfathering... (yes I am grasping for a loophole here!)


That would be interesting if it worked... but I suspect its "does BMW FS have your money right now" type thing.

Maybe one of the CAs can confirm.


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## jillyjellyroll (Oct 4, 2005)

Do MSDs truly "roll over" or do you pay again at the start of the new lease and then get your existing refunded back from BMWFS (less any deductions for damages)?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

jillyjellyroll said:


> Do MSDs truly "roll over" or do you pay again at the start of the new lease and then get your existing refunded back from BMWFS (less any deductions for damages)?


Greg answered in post #19. With damages, you would have to pay in addition to the 'true up' balance.


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## jillyjellyroll (Oct 4, 2005)

Ibiza said:


> Greg answered in post #19. With damages, you would have to pay in addition to the 'true up' balance.


That's what I thought. But a previous CA I had threw a hissy fit when I wanted my MSDs rolled over to my new lease, claiming the dealership was "not a bank" and that I had to put down my new MSDs and fill out a form from BMWFS to get my old MSDs back. I pulled out my lease paperwork that said clearly "existing MSDs will roll over/transfer to new lease" [I had that clause specifically handwritten in to avoid any doubt], and we came to an agreement to honor the written buyer's order, but I was surprised at what I was being told.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

jillyjellyroll said:


> That's what I thought. But a previous CA I had threw a hissy fit when I wanted my MSDs rolled over to my new lease, claiming the dealership was "not a bank" and that I had to put down my new MSDs and fill out a form from BMWFS to get my old MSDs back. I pulled out my lease paperwork that said clearly "existing MSDs will roll over/transfer to new lease" [I had that clause specifically handwritten in to avoid any doubt], and we came to an agreement to honor the written buyer's order, but I was surprised at what I was being told.


Some dealers do not want to do it because of the paperwork etc I have read on here, so your experience is not unheard of.

We know its possible to roll them over, so if thats what someone wants to do (and why not) thats what they should insist on happening


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## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

jillyjellyroll said:


> That's what I thought. But a previous CA I had threw a hissy fit when I wanted my MSDs rolled over to my new lease, claiming the dealership was "not a bank" and that I had to put down my new MSDs and fill out a form from BMWFS to get my old MSDs back. I pulled out my lease paperwork that said clearly "existing MSDs will roll over/transfer to new lease" [I had that clause specifically handwritten in to avoid any doubt], and we came to an agreement to honor the written buyer's order, but I was surprised at what I was being told.


My CA has told me he can do it (rollover), but does not like to because BMW often screws it up and the customer ends up all annoyed. One of the CA's on here (MJ) mentioned when I posted this before this has also been his experience.

I have always just paid the whole thing again and received my old MSD refund from BMW in a week or so.


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## jillyjellyroll (Oct 4, 2005)

Happy to report that I was just able to roll my existing MSDs over to my new lease that I just picked up today. Eastern region!


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## zoombie99 (Mar 27, 2012)

ZoomVT said:


> I assume the prior lease could have been anywhere in the country, but can only get MSDs from a California dealer?
> 
> So bmw is favoring California stores? This is good news though. Hope it sticks around. Even if the benefit is lower.
> 
> ...


New MSD rollover program has been available in the northeast for months now (NY excluded by law)

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Ty Vil said:


> MSDs are also back in Arizona, Vegas, NM for clients who have them already.


This is great but suck for people who don't have MSD on their current leases.


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## HPIA4v2 (Mar 30, 2006)

I have a feeling MSD would be back for all, just give it time.

Not many can afford to purchase/finance a ballooning BMW car price, average BMW price in the last 10 years probably move up $10K across the fleet if not more.
Unless Benz and other alternative kills MSD as well, BMW has no choice to yield to competition or just sell/lease fewer cars in the process.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

HPIA4v2 said:


> I have a feeling MSD would be back for all, just give it time.
> 
> Not many can afford to purchase/finance a ballooning BMW car price, average BMW price in the last 10 years probably move up $10K across the fleet if not more.
> Unless Benz and other alternative kills MSD as well, BMW has no choice to yield to competition or just sell/lease fewer cars in the process.


The return of MSD at a reduced reduction of 0.0005 per deposit is offsetting the increasing MF, but allowing Centers to mark-up the MF. Its just a shell game, as production is being moved to China by BMW AG. As mentioned above, New York doesn't allow MSD and this is area is the largest US market for BMW NA.

'Festers who re-lease with MSD, please post the pre-MSD money factor to track if there is a mark-up on MF, as I wouldn't be surprised that the BMW National Dealers Forum gave pressure to BMW NA/BMW FS and successfully negotiated the return of the program, but with a basis point reduction per deposit.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> The return of MSD at a reduced reduction of 0.0005 per deposit is offsetting the increasing MF, but allowing Centers to mark-up the MF. Its just a shell game, as production is being moved to China by BMW AG. As mentioned above, New York doesn't allow MSD and this is area is the largest US market for BMW NA.
> 
> 'Festers who re-lease with MSD, please post the pre-MSD money factor to track if there is a mark-up on MF, as I wouldn't be surprised that the BMW National Dealers Forum gave pressure to BMW NA/BMW FS and successfully negotiated the return of the program, but with a basis point reduction per deposit.


MSDs are usually not something that novices in the "lease game" do. I dont think dealers even talk about them unless the person brings it up, because its too hard to explain to someone who doesnt understand ( and just adds another "uneeded" decision point that may make them say "let me go research that" and get on the "beback bus").

Since dealers (in general) do not push it, then the MF markup situation is roughly the same with or without MSDs, in my opinion ( want to be clear that this is just my opinion, not based on anything but gut feeling based on discussions with CAs and a couple of Sales Managers about MSDs).

This MF discount reduction was done once before to the MSD program, according the MSD thread that Jon posted a long time ago about what they are (which is now buried unfortunately).

My leases are up on both my BMWs Jan 20th of 2019, but I will be looking at pull aheads etc, starting in July. I have not decided if I am going to roll over my MSDs on both deals or not. My current lease money factor is completely, spectacularly unavailable (lol). On my current leases, the MF is .00061, which is somewhere around 1.4% interest rate equivalent. Base rate of .00130 + corp fleet discount + max MSDs. Now, no corporate fleet discount, Max MSD discount reduced, and MF is .00026 higher base than it was then... and may go up more.

I likely will roll them over because I am going to have a hard time paying 150 more a month for the same car. Psychologically, if Levi's jeans are MSRP 65.99, but you have been buying them for 35.99 on sale, the price is 35.99. If the sales get reduced, and they are now 49.99, you are not going to be happy they are reduced from MSRP of 65.99, you are going to be UPSET that they are too expensive, compared to the ones you bought at 35.99.

Same principle here, but more zeros involved (increasing the anger / frustration).


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> MSDs are usually not something that novices in the "lease game" do. I dont think dealers even talk about them unless the person brings it up, because its too hard to explain to someone who doesnt understand ( and just adds another "uneeded" decision point that may make them say "let me go research that" and get on the "beback bus").
> 
> Since dealers (in general) do not push it, then the MF markup situation is roughly the same with or without MSDs, in my opinion ( want to be clear that this is just my opinion, not based on anything but gut feeling based on discussions with CAs and a couple of Sales Managers about MSDs).
> 
> ...


Interesting that the 1st time I was asked about MSD was from a former 'Fest sponsor for my 1st ED who snuck in full MF mark-up when I received the ED paper work 1 day prior to departure. My 1st 3 BMW's were ordered from a super high volume Center in New York for PCD, so thus my reason for not participating in MSD- New York Centers under state law can't offer MSD.

That is one low interest rate you had. @JJ are you a BMW CCA member? If yes, the one draw back of taking delivery in the same year of 2 vehicles is qualifying for only one 1 rebate then. But, since you have taking advantage of Corporate Fleet in the past, I assume no then.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> @JJ are you a BMW CCA member? If yes, the one draw back of taking delivery in the same year of 2 vehicles is qualifying for only one 1 rebate then. But, since you have taking advantage of Corporate Fleet in the past, I assume no then.


I actually am a BMW CCA member. I signed up for 4 years to get the magazine, and just in case my corporate fleet discount became less than the BMW CCA rebate. Figured the magazine was worth the membership, even if I never use the rebate.

I need to do the math this time to see which (fleet or BMW CCA) is better this year when I get down to Xs and Os.

On the MF, yeah, both times (I have that MF on 2 different cars from 2 different dealers) the F&I person left in the middle of the paperwork to "go talk to their manager because they had never seen MF that low and wanted to make sure it wasnt a mistake".... and like I said, 2 different F&I people, at 2 different So. Cali Dealerships no where near each other (BMW of Santa Monica and Crevier BMW).

Anyway, back to MSDs.. BMW is incentivizing buying more than leasing right now, but I might buy a 2-3 year old BMW to keep. I am getting a bit older and am thinking about getting off the lease merry go round.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

jjrandorin said:


> Psychologically, if Levi's jeans are MSRP 65.99, but you have been buying them for 35.99 on sale, the price is 35.99. If the sales get reduced, and they are now 49.99, you are not going to be happy they are reduced from MSRP of 65.99, you are going to be UPSET that they are too expensive, compared to the ones you bought at 35.99.
> 
> Same principle here, but more zeros involved (increasing the anger / frustration).


Very well said! This is the nub. (And I write this wearing my trusty 501's that I bought "on sale" for $36).

I have opined over and over that the price of BMWs will be determined by the customers who choose whether or not to buy/lease them at the pricing offered by dealers.

If folks are willing to pay $150 more per month to lease the latest version of the BMW model they just turned in at lease end or traded in, then that's what it's gonna be.

Those who say the US market is unimportant to BMW are, IMHO, mistaken. The multi-billion dollar investment BMW and its USA dealer network have made is not to be taken lightly, and I don't think it is or will be.

The question is, are BMWs, at higher ownership cost, compelling enough for the loyal BMW base and are they compelling for a new generation of prospective BMW owners?

Without doubt, there is a new generation that does not understand the old school method of grinding out a car deal. I don't know if the next generation will "lay down" and pay the asking pricing for these cars. Maybe there are enough members of the next wave who have the loot, want the Roundel, and don't care about paying more than their parents paid. You know, the kids who pay $300 for jeans. 

I'm proud to wear my $36 501's. Probably sewn in a foreign sweat shop by young children for starvation wages.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> I likely will roll them over because I am going to have a hard time paying 150 more a month for the same car. Psychologically, if Levi's jeans are MSRP 65.99, but you have been buying them for 35.99 on sale, the price is 35.99. If the sales get reduced, and they are now 49.99, you are not going to be happy they are reduced from MSRP of 65.99, you are going to be UPSET that they are too expensive, compared to the ones you bought at 35.99.
> 
> Same principle here, but more zeros involved (increasing the anger / frustration).


From another perspective, BMWNA cash/finance prices are still similar, it is just that lease/rental prices get normalized to FMV(e.g. 55% RV for 3-year), since BMWFS can no longer subsidize leases against a backdrop of rising interest rate and (slow) end of lax monetary policies.

Many among family and friends have been cash buyers for a long while, so these recent BMWFS changes do not register much for them.

As for my bimmer, it is now 5.5 years of age, and still works great. With leases it would have been a 3rd one coming soon, in the same 3-series product cycle, and it can a bit boring.


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## jillyjellyroll (Oct 4, 2005)

jjrandorin said:


> My leases are up on both my BMWs Jan 20th of 2019, but I will be looking at pull aheads etc, starting in July. I have not decided if I am going to roll over my MSDs on both deals or not. My current lease money factor is completely, spectacularly unavailable (lol). On my current leases, the MF is .00061, which is somewhere around 1.4% interest rate equivalent. Base rate of .00130 + corp fleet discount + max MSDs. Now, no corporate fleet discount, Max MSD discount reduced, and MF is .00026 higher base than it was then... and may go up more.
> 
> I likely will roll them over because I am going to have a hard time paying 150 more a month for the same car. Psychologically, if Levi's jeans are MSRP 65.99, but you have been buying them for 35.99 on sale, the price is 35.99. If the sales get reduced, and they are now 49.99, you are not going to be happy they are reduced from MSRP of 65.99, you are going to be UPSET that they are too expensive, compared to the ones you bought at 35.99.
> 
> Same principle here, but more zeros involved (increasing the anger / frustration).


I share the same sentiment (although I don't wear 501s). It was for this reason that I wound up going with a 2017 in inventory over ordering a MY2018 this time around. The 5% drop in residual (65% to 60%) plus interest rate markup and discontinuation of MSDs (at least in early February) would make my lease payments jump nearly $100/month for essentially the same car.

Ultimately with the "reintroduction" of MSD rollovers last week, I was able to drop $30/month on my lease payment for a car with a higher MSRP than in 2015, but that deal was only possible because I was willing to take from inventory.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> As for my bimmer, it is now 5.5 years of age, and still works great. With leases it would have been a 3rd one coming soon, in the same 3-series product cycle, and it can a bit boring.


That's why BMW releases special edition models towards the end of the chassis 7 year model cycle, and opens up the individual catalog so you don't get bored, but it comes at a price as the vehicle increases in price each go around.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Apparently *33% of all BMW MSDs in the US* are through one NorCal COE, and very likely a majority through the President's man there. :thumbup:

It is surprising BMWFS does not implement the pilot [email protected] first.

The specific demographics of this group of MSD customers at that COE may not bemoan the loss of MSDs, nonetheless utilize them if available.


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## kcdc368 (Jan 4, 2015)

Just signed a new lease for a M550 this weekend with $6300 MSD. 

The existing MSD on my M5 does not roll over into the new lease, you have to pay for the new MSDs and wait for BMWFS to send you a check to refund the previous MSDs.


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