# Oil Change for a 2022 540i before 10,000 miles



## joeyv1985 (Dec 10, 2021)

All,

Relatively new to these forums, so I'm sorry if this question has been asked. I purchased a new 5 series back in Mid December and I'm wondering what are the pros and cons of getting my oil changed say at 2,000 miles is vs waiting until the 10,000-mile mark to do it. The former will come out of pocket, which is no big deal, while the latter is part of my service plan. I've always changed the oil in all of the new cars that I've purchased once I've reached the 1K or 2K mile mark but since this is my first BMW/Premium Vehicle, your input would be greatly








appreciated. Cheers.


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## MarekBMW (Jan 12, 2018)

If/when you do oil change before 10k, ask shop not to reset it as your dealer will refuse free oil change stating car doesn't need it....I learned it hard way.

Btw every 5k is good oil change interval.


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## joeyv85 (12 mo ago)

MarekBMW said:


> If/when you do oil change before 10k, ask shop not to reset it as your dealer will refuse free oil change stating car doesn't need it....I learned it hard way.
> 
> Btw every 5k is good oil change interval.


Hello Mark. What do you mean by "not to reset it"? Also, how will the BMW dealership know? The brand of oil filter? The sticker that the shop puts on the windshield?


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## moosaud1998 (May 14, 2020)

I'd change it 2k miles. Since it's a new car. Break-in period basically. After that, every 5k or 6 months


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## joeyv85 (12 mo ago)

moosaud1998 said:


> I'd change it 2k miles. Since it's a new car. Break-in period basically. After that, every 5k or 6 months


How does that impact the service contract at a BMW Dealership.


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## MarekBMW (Jan 12, 2018)

joeyv85 said:


> Hello Mark. What do you mean by "not to reset it"? Also, how will the BMW dealership know? The brand of oil filter? The sticker that the shop puts on the windshield?


BMWs have "condition-based services" or CBS. The fob gets information on maintenance flashed to it from the car. The Service Advisor can see what maintenance services are needed by reding your key fob. If you reset oil change (lets say at 5k) on car computer CBS will not read (CBS) BMW paid oil change service untill 10k from last reset. 

Hope this helps to clarify it.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

It is your money so you're free to waste it however you please...

The 10K mile service interval is more than adequate so you can leave it be. Much better things to waste your money on IMHO.


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## moosaud1998 (May 14, 2020)

joeyv85 said:


> How does that impact the service contract at a BMW Dealership.


Not sure. I'd call and speak to the service advisor about that


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## MarekBMW (Jan 12, 2018)

LogicalApex said:


> It is your money so you're free to waste it however you please...
> 
> The 10K mile service interval is more than adequate so you can leave it be. Much better things to waste your money on IMHO.


It is "adequate" if you want to keep car only untill warranty expires otherwise it is cheap ($100-150) way to ensure you turbo and internals are in great shape beyond 50k miles mark.


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## MarekBMW (Jan 12, 2018)

moosaud1998 said:


> Not sure. I'd call and speak to the service advisor about that


It doesn't affect at all if not reset as it is stil CBS based.


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## joeyv1985 (Dec 10, 2021)

MarekBMW said:


> BMWs have "condition-based services" or CBS. The fob gets information on maintenance flashed to it from the car. The Service Advisor can see what maintenance services are needed by reding your key fob. If you reset oil change (lets say at 5k) on car computer CBS will not read (CBS) BMW paid oil change service untill 10k from last reset.
> 
> Hope this helps to clarify it.


Gotcha. Thanks.


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## anthonyk56832 (Sep 28, 2017)

joeyv1985 said:


> All,
> 
> Relatively new to these forums, so I'm sorry if this question has been asked. I purchased a new 5 series back in Mid December and I'm wondering what are the pros and cons of getting my oil changed say at 2,000 miles is vs waiting until the 10,000-mile mark to do it. The former will come out of pocket, which is no big deal, while the latter is part of my service plan. I've always changed the oil in all of the new cars that I've purchased once I've reached the 1K or 2K mile mark but since this is my first BMW/Premium Vehicle, your input would be greatly
> View attachment 1050912
> ...


id change every 5k with a name brand 5w40 oil, my 530i has 220k miles using castrol 5w40


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

Things are breaking in and wearing together; engines don’t come “pre-broken-in” as much as modern folklore claims. This is why you’ll see improvements in efficiency over the first several thousand miles. We bought a new 2021 Chrysler last year, and it’s first oil change at almost 1000k miles showed more metal in it on a UOA than my Bimmer with 186k miles. Drive fairly aggressively over the first 100 miles to build cylinder pressure and seat the rings, and you won’t have oil consumption issues. You’ll also get the most metal wear during this time. 

Oil change at 1000 miles, then at 5k, and every 5k thereafter. If you’re only driving a few miles each day and never letting oil get up to temperature, change even more frequently. But, I’m the type who keeps machines until they turn back into dirt. 

I built an engine for my VW last summer: first oil change after 15 minutes run-time to seat the rings (new pistons, cylinders, heads, valvetrain, oil pump, etc)., second after 100 miles. Both oils drained out full of glitter. 3rd oil change at 500 miles was much cleaner, and now with nearly 1000k miles on the 4th fill of oil (which was also switched to full synthetic), looks beautiful on the dipstick. Engine performance and efficiency has been improving the entire time. 

Don’t forget new ATF at 15-20k miles, as the majority of transmission wear occurs during this time. Trans filters don’t have a high filtration rate. With the temperatures that automakers run the transmissions at these days, fluid is toast by 50k miles of mild driving. After numerous warranty claims, GM has recently issued a revised AT thermostat for the 6L80/90 (with revisions to the 8 and 10s forthcoming), lowing the operating temp by a whopping 40*F, for example. 


Via the interwebs


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

MarekBMW said:


> It is "adequate" if you want to keep car only untill warranty expires otherwise it is cheap ($100-150) way to ensure you turbo and internals are in great shape beyond 50k miles mark.


Modern engines running on fully synthetic like the G30 are perfectly fine at 10k miles. Changing oil every 1K miles like OP is claiming is a waste so is 5K miles. People just pull out random numbers on when to change oil. Apparently BMW is wrong, but random intervals from habits built up decades ago on different engines and different oils is correct. Might as well change the oil before every drive 🤣…

I have yet to see a blackstone oil analysis that the 10k interval on these cars is incorrect and more frequent changes are needed.

But it is your money to waste how you please.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

Tell that to the countless modern engines exhibiting sludge or timing chain issues. I've got to start on a sludged 145k mile Volvo with no oil pressure on Friday that got that way on 3k mile/year oil changes; yeah only 6 miles a day through NY winters will do that. A couple of years ago, my friend (who is an expert marine mechanic) had to pull the heads on his LS Silverado because the fuel pump's cam lobe wiped, despite 3k mile semi-synthetic oil changes, at only 220k miles. LS engines are about as bullet-proof as they come. VW 1.8s, 2.0s, Ford engines going back to the introduction of VCT in 2004, etc. Stretching OCI on a multi-displacement or turbo engine doesn't tend to end well. 

BMW was certainly wrong when they were selling 15k mile OCI on cars a decade ago, to the point they backed down to 10k, and have always been wrong with "lifetime" fluids on various drivetrain parts. The engineers don't dictate the OCI, the marketing department does. Reduced maintenance sells cars, end of story. Mike Miller has said the same.

But hey, save money on oil changes, then put my kids through college. Works for me!


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

dukedkt442 said:


> Tell that to the countless modern engines exhibiting sludge or timing chain issues. I've got to start on a sludged 145k mile Volvo with no oil pressure on Friday that got that way on 3k mile/year oil changes; yeah only 6 miles a day through NY winters will do that. A couple of years ago, my friend (who is an expert marine mechanic) had to pull the heads on his LS Silverado because the fuel pump's cam lobe wiped, despite 3k mile semi-synthetic oil changes, at only 220k miles. LS engines are about as bullet-proof as they come. VW 1.8s, 2.0s, Ford engines going back to the introduction of VCT in 2004, etc.
> 
> BMW was certainly wrong when they were selling 15k mile OCI on cars a decade ago, to the point they backed down to 10k, and have always been wrong with "lifetime" fluids on various drivetrain parts. The engineers don't dictate the OCI, the marketing department does. Reduced maintenance sells cars, end of story. Mike Miller has said the same.
> 
> But hey, save money on oil changes, then put my kids through college. Works for me!


So what is your recommendation the Volvo? 1K mile oil changes? 50 mile oil changes?

BMW is motivated to push the OCI as far into the future they can get away with less for marketing I’d argue and more for savings. They have 3Y/36K mile free maintenance so if they can do less and save money the would. But the other side of that reality is their warranty costs. If they push them far enough that they impair reliability they’ll be footing that bill... Remember BMW offers unlimited mileage CPO warranties that can be covering a motor for 7Y or so from the in service date…

10K mile OCI is very common among cars built to high standards with fully synthetic oil. My W204 Mercedes had a 10K/1Y OCI and ran like a charm. I sold it with over 90K miles on the standard OCI and it went through lots of Philly city driving a lots of winters both in Philly and in Southern Ontario.

I’d wager that the electrical complexity of my car will be a problem for me far sooner than any engine issues from the 10K/1Y OCI.

I could understand the recommendation for shorter OCI if people posted data from Blackstone or the like showing problems with the 10K OCI, but I haven’t seen that. Random numbers “just because it feels better” seems silly to me.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

Given the driving style of the Volvo, yes, a 1k mile OCI would not have been unreasonable, because 3k clearly didn't cut it; if sticking with 3k, I'd replace 20% with Marvel mystery oil. The best oil in the world is useless if the vehicle is trashed with a short operation distance, because water doesn't leave the sump; the finest full synthetic doesn't change that.

90k miles? Pshhh that's barely broken in. Vegetable oil can get a NA BMW there, it's 2, 3, 400k+ miles where a few little changes mean the world of difference. Don't forget that VW stated a 7500 mile OCI on its air cooled boxer engines back in the 1970s; you know, the ones that didn't even have oil filters.

Any manufacturer's OCI is designed to get past the warranty, and BMW knows that an overwhelming majority of owners are not going to keep their cars indefinitely. I'd posit that most people who buy new BMWs need clout, and no clapped out, 2nd or 3rd generation-old car will exude that, so they'll trade up long before any warranty claims come around.

Ford claims 10k on its motors and yeah, the OCI will usually get past the warranty period, but the engines can eat their timing chains by 100k miles. I've seen 33k mile engines sludged to hell eat their chains, despite being dealer serviced "on time." GM LT engines have been exhibiting a rash of lifter failures/seizures in their V8 trucks that run 0w-20, much more so than the V6s or the cars that run the same V8s, that run 5w-30. They've also since issued an updated ATF thermostat that lowers transmission operating temp by 40*F (conveniently after most 6L80/90s are out of warranty). If the manufacturer can't be trusted to get the oil grade or operating temperature correct, why should they be trusted to get a service interval correct, when their sole purpose goal is planned obsolescence to get you back in the door? Reliability doesn't sell vehicles, only the perception of it, as Mercedes discovered with the W123.

An oil change costs under $40 for a BMW with a 7 quart sump; buying a new car, especially a BMW, every few years is a far greater waste of money than a couple of extra bucks a year to keep it going for decades. JMO of course, because I still use a '70 VW as a commuter/knock-around at one of my houses. 

So there you go, OP. Weigh it all.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

dukedkt442 said:


> An oil change costs under $40 for a BMW with a 7 quart sump; buying a new car, especially a BMW, every few years is a far greater waste of money than a couple of extra bucks a year to keep it going for decades. JMO of course, because I still use a '70 VW as a commuter/knock-around at one of my houses.


Thanks for the detailed write up.

If I were planning to own my car for 20+ years with a goal of maximizing its longevity during that time span I would have regular oil analysis conducted by Blackstone at each oil change. As the only way to know if the OCI isn’t working for you or if conditions warrant adjustments is to have hard data to back it up with. Otherwise, going from 10K OCI to a 5K OCI could be insufficient and so could going down to a 100 mile OCI or you could just be pissing money into the wind. To me the insurance would come from the oil analysis and not unwarranted oil changes.

Data should inform decisions. 

That said, I agree I think OP has enough data to make a very informed decision!


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## MarekBMW (Jan 12, 2018)

Peace out gentlemen, few more years BMW and other manufacturers will go EV route....we won't have to argue about OCI


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## HotGrbg (Apr 23, 2021)

LogicalApex said:


> Modern engines running on fully synthetic like the G30 are perfectly fine at 10k miles. Changing oil every 1K miles like OP is claiming is a waste so is 5K miles. People just pull out random numbers on when to change oil. Apparently BMW is wrong, but random intervals from habits built up decades ago on different engines and different oils is correct. Might as well change the oil before every drive 🤣…
> 
> I have yet to see a blackstone oil analysis that the 10k interval on these cars is incorrect and more frequent changes are needed.
> 
> But it is your money to waste how you please.


So I disagree but that’s perfectly fine! I’d like to present my evidence as mostly anecdotal but leaning towards the intervals being too long. I’d like you to consider the possibility and happy to try and sway you if I can. 
B engines are seeming to have fuel dilution issues and sludging IS being seen in the oil filter caps with my own eyes. 








Requesting B46 engine Blackstone lab reports


I was hoping for a place for people to post B46 engine blackstone reports. Please do not post engines other than B46. If this works there’s no reason not to start a similar thread for other engine variants. My goal is data about how this engine wears and operates and specifically how this BMW...




www.bimmerfest.com




BMW is very up front about lifetime fluids but that just means they are manufacturing vehicles to last 100k as that’s what’s considered lifetime. A quick example is ZF transmission are lifetime full but ZF themselves state that the fluid needs changed. When you combine this with BMWs past history of engine problems you might start to form the picture that oil intervals may be pushing the limits of protection for the trade off of cost management and CAFE. 
The earliest I personally can remember is M54 which either dies by being overheated or the “rings go” but the “rings going” is actually a failure of the oil control ring caused by improper lubrication over time which wears the rings and scores the cylinder walls.
The next good example is the notorious N63 which BMW themselves have shortened the intervals on AFTER THE FACT as well as changing the oil quantity going in the engines not to mention the countless engines being replaced for low compression which again is directly related to lubrication and heat management. 
The next one is the notorious N20 which suffers from stretched chains, failing guides and wear on the oil pump sprocket causing whining noise. Many people think the chain slack causes the while but they are incorrect. While it’s not good the oil pump sprocket wear is the hair dryer noise that’s synonymous with N20 lubrication problems. 
The next example is N55 which is known to lock up under extreme cold temperatures or fail shortly after oil changes or oil related repairs which only occurs on high mileage vehicles and BMW won’t accept responsibility for. They state techs aren’t priming the oil circuit but plenty do get primed and still lock up. None of these issues occurred when N55 was running good old castrol 5W30 but the EPA made BMW remove the zinc and phosphorous due to poisoning catalytic converters. A quick google search will confirm that zinc and phosphorous are the 2 main wear prevention additives in oil but since we can’t use that any more we load it up with molybdenum and additive packages to combat high intervals and oils designed to be a compromise between CAFE, federal emission standards and wear instead of what’s best for the vehicles longevity.
The N55s that don’t die in this fashion normally wind up setting “calculated air mass plausibility” faults which is a measurement of internal drag on the engine ( confirmed with an SIB ) and therefore basically a worn out engine again due to long life and poor lubrication.
B- engines now are great and I’m a HUGE fan but I fear the intervals are again ludicrous as I’m seeing sludge in oil caps, fuel dilution is high on blackstone reports but the KV100 numbers are still robust which basically means sludge. As fuel dilutes the oil it goes from a 0/20 to like 0/15 or less but the reports show oil still maintaining a 0/20 KV100 reading which means viscosity is going up ( sludging or particles added to the oil as viscosity by definition is “resistance to flow” but I ask if oil is being diluted how can it still have the same viscosity? Think about it.
Finally I defer to @edycol if he doesn’t mind as he worked in oil development in EU and we’ve had many wonderful conversations on oil and I trust his insights.
So again much of this is anecdotal and some of this is hard to prove but the evidence seems to point in one direction. I think it’s cheap insurance to keep my 60k dollar+ ride going by changing the oil more frequently that BMW recommends. There is a possibility that your correct and I’m wasting my money but there’s also a possibly your incorrect. I let history, my experience and the knowledge of others guide my opinions and let’s be honest I sleep better thinking I’m doing the “right thing”.


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## joeyv1985 (Dec 10, 2021)

HotGrbg said:


> So I disagree but that’s perfectly fine! I’d like to present my evidence as mostly anecdotal but leaning towards the intervals being too long. I’d like you to consider the possibility and happy to try and sway you if I can.
> B engines are seeming to have fuel dilution issues and sludging IS being seen in the oil filter caps with my own eyes.
> 
> 
> ...





HotGrbg said:


> So I disagree but that’s perfectly fine! I’d like to present my evidence as mostly anecdotal but leaning towards the intervals being too long. I’d like you to consider the possibility and happy to try and sway you if I can.
> B engines are seeming to have fuel dilution issues and sludging IS being seen in the oil filter caps with my own eyes.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the input. I went ahead and scheduled an “Oil Change Only” with the BMW dealership here in Las Vegas towards the beginning of next month. Per the service technician, “just so you don’t push out the 10K mile scheduled maintenance and oil change, don’t do anything but the oil change when you come in”. After the 10K mile oil change in about December, I’ll go back to changing my oil every 5K miles. I’m a creature of habit I guess. I don’t mind paying for that extra oil change. It’s either that or lose money at the Blackjack Tables.


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## HotGrbg (Apr 23, 2021)

joeyv1985 said:


> Thank you for the input. I went ahead and scheduled an “Oil Change Only” with the BMW dealership here in Las Vegas towards the beginning of next month. Per the service technician, “just so you don’t push out the 10K mile scheduled maintenance and oil change, don’t do anything but the oil change when you come in”. After the 10K mile oil change in about December, I’ll go back to changing my oil every 5K miles. I’m a creature of habit I guess. I don’t mind paying for that extra oil change. It’s either that or lose money at the Blackjack Tables.


I can’t pass up a wheel of fortune slot myself 😆


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

HotGrbg said:


> So I disagree but that’s perfectly fine! I’d like to present my evidence as mostly anecdotal but leaning towards the intervals being too long. I’d like you to consider the possibility and happy to try and sway you if I can.
> B engines are seeming to have fuel dilution issues and sludging IS being seen in the oil filter caps with my own eyes.
> 
> 
> ...


I always enjoy reading your posts and respect your opinion a lot. I'll be following and keeping up with your linked thread too.

You're doing it exactly right IMHO. You're doing regular oil analysis reports and compiling the data. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not against more frequent changes when we have data to help guide us to the right place. I'm just not a fan of random numbers pulled out of thin air and then used as the basis for advice for others. As threads like yours grow we can start to see if the OCI is indeed problematic and, if so, what OCI may be less problematic.


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## joeyv1985 (Dec 10, 2021)

HotGrbg said:


> I can’t pass up a wheel of fortune slot myself 😆


I hear you. Just putting money down on a football game is an exercise in discipline because you have to pass the Casino floor just to get to it. It’s like buying the roasted chicken at Costco, you have to go through the entire store before you reach the prize.


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## HotGrbg (Apr 23, 2021)

It’s an old thread and the problem is that nobody seems to want to pay for a blackstone report and post em 😝.
I’m not sure how helpful my personal reports will be as it’s a 3rd car that I only drive in nice weather so mileage probably won’t go up very quickly.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

LogicalApex said:


> Thanks for the detailed write up.
> 
> If I were planning to own my car for 20+ years with a goal of maximizing its longevity during that time span I would have regular oil analysis conducted by Blackstone at each oil change. As the only way to know if the OCI isn’t working for you or if conditions warrant adjustments is to have hard data to back it up with. Otherwise, going from 10K OCI to a 5K OCI could be insufficient and so could going down to a 100 mile OCI or you could just be pissing money into the wind. To me the insurance would come from the oil analysis and not unwarranted oil changes.
> 
> ...


I don’t do a UOA an every car that comes through the door it’s true. Collectively and anecdotally, thousands of visual inspections and tear downs point to a 5k interval being a safe and logical OCI for most people. Can it be stretched on a car like mine that sees only Highway? Sure. Is it too long for something like the XC90 I’ll be tearing into this weekend? Sure.

A blackstone analysis is good, but not perfect. 1) it is an oil analysis, not an engine condition analysis. Oil condition and particulate is used as a proxy to assess engine health. 2) if the OCI is dragged on, and a UOA shows high metal wear or fuel dilution, then there’s no putting the genie back in the bottle and the damage is done. When it comes to certain things, sometimes it’s not a good plan to cross the line just to be able to know where the line is. 3) as stated, a 7 quart oil change is under $40 (usually under $30). A blackstone UOA is $35. In 10k miles of 2 oil changes, I’ve spent $80. In 10k miles of a single oil change and a UOA, I’ve spent $75, plus the fuel and time to get me to the post office to pay for shipping, only to find probable increased wear. To me, that’s no cost savings, especially considering the cost of a UOA usually exceeds the cost of the oil change itself.

I have posted 3 consecutive UOAs on my N52 which show excellent state on 5k-6200 mile OCI; in fact, after switching oil viscosities, a longer OCI showed a better TAN than 4500 on a “thicker” oil. When I do my next change at 190k, I’ll be sending that one in too, and will post it in my respective UOA thread.

@HotGrbg nailed it again, like usual. 

Via the interwebs


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

MarekBMW said:


> Peace out gentlemen, few more years BMW and other manufacturers will go EV route....we won't have to argue about OCI


Good thing BMW has just announced their next generation of L6 and V8 engines. 


Via the interwebs


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

I had an early E46 M3. Those engines were blowing up left and right. People were getting Blackstone lab's done on the oil, and they could sometimes see a blow up coming. The lab's also said that the oil was severely compromised after about 7.5k miles. Back then BMW"s recommended oil changes were based on fuel used since the last oil change. My M3 "wanted" an oil change about every 13k miles. I did them twice as often. After 115k miles the engine was fine and spotless inside (looking down the oil fill hole). My next two BMW's were/are F10 535i's with N55's. They call for 10k mile oil changes, but I'm doing 8k-mile ones. The engine on my current F 10 is spotless after 76k miles. I'm now doing 8k-mile oil changes on Frau Putzer's G01 X3 30i with the B46 engine. We ran a V6 Honda Accord to 147k miles and a Chevy Cobalt to 125k miles on 8k miles oil changes with synthetic oil, and the engines were spotless inside and ran like new engines, still not needing top-off oil in 8k miles when we sold them.

8k-mile oil changes will cost me about an extra $300 over 100k miles. That's cheap insurance, and when I sell the cars I make a point to show perspective buyers the spotless engines and documented low oil consumption. Like that stupid ad on TV for useless crap... "Sold! Sold! Sold!"

Since I know 8k-mile oil changes work, I'm not going to waste money on 5k-mile oil changes. I'm also not willing to risk sludging or varnishing up an engine with 9k or 10k-mile oil changes. I also make sure our cars get regular runs of over ten miles at a time, to boil off coolant, condensation, and gasoline in the oil.

A friend of Frau Putzer's was selling her late husband's E39 530i. He worked from home and the car was in the garage most of the day. A 16-year-old car with no sunlight damage in Floriduh is a unicorn. I was game until I looked down the oil fill hole. ... never mind. I made a point of "mansplaining" to Frau Putzer's friend the importance of 8k mile oil changes with proper synthetic oil, and I showed her our spotless Honda and Chevy engines with more miles than her 530i.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

I was religious about UOAs on my E39M5. After a while I settled on the best OCI for my driving, my car, my oil. 7-8k miles, so far 235k

Too lazy to do UOAs on all the cars, just take the mfg recommendation and cut it down. 7500 seems fine for most. Prolly throwing out good oil, better than not.

Always get a kick out of these conversations tho....


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

ard said:


> After a while I settled on the best OCI for *my driving, my car, my oil.* 7-8k miles, so far 235k
> 
> Too lazy to do UOAs on all the cars, just take the mfg recommendation and cut it down. 7500 seems fine for most. Prolly throwing out good oil, better than not.


I did the same, approximately. From my first BMW 20+ years ago, long before I heard of UOA, I took one look at the then-15K OCI and said to myself, "well, that's BS even with the best synthetics." Cutting the interval in half made it easy to track without messing up the car's little brain or mine. Been doing that ever since.

The key is the part of ard's post I bolded. Last year, Blackstone advised me that my 335xi--which now has an OCI determined by the calendar, since it clocks under 5k/year--could go longer between changes (not that I'd asked) because modern engines are much better sealed than years past, which supposedly has some bearing on the time-based deterioration of oil. I thought, "that's nice", and will stick with 12-month intervals. What's the alternative? Try 14, 16, 18, 20 months, ... until, 4-5 years from now, UOA finally says "that's long enough?" For a car I plan to keep forever ... thank you, no. I know how I use it, I know what I want out of it, and I have a pretty good idea how to get it.

Auto manufacturers have decided (rightly, I suppose) that modern car buyers/owners know none of those three things. Once upon a time, owner's manuals not only defined the regular maintenance schedules for all service consumables, they also gave separate intervals for "severe duty" (with examples) and owners were expected to service their cars according to _how they were used_. Imagine that.

dukedkt442's Volvo example sure as shootin' would have been in the "severe duty" category.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

Actually, most of ours are severe duty. For those of us with GM transmissions, GM states a 45k mile service interval under normal duty, and as little at 15k miles under severe duty, which is defined as driving in the mountains or stop and go traffic. They made a similar distinction with oil changes, but I forget off hand. 

My 90 year old Uncle Lyle changed the oil on his mid 80s Cadillac every 3k miles whether it’s needed it or not, and drove it into the scrap yard a few years ago with 590k miles on an all original drivetrain. Never used synthetic. It was either the (junk) Caddy 4.1 or the Olds 307 engine, and a 2004-r transmission. To what purpose would skimping on oil changes served him, in hindsight? His brother, my grandfather, sold his ‘72 F250 with a 390 and a 4 speed, used to haul tons of firewood from the farm upstate to his house on LI for decades, far exceeding the “safe” payload of the truck, in 1989 with 450k miles and its original clutch. 

Treat the machine better than you think you need to, and it’ll treat you better than you thought possible. That’s why I can daily drive a 52 year old car in the dead of a NY winter. 

I temporarily fixed the Volvo (not mine, but a customer’s car) in a half hour house call, by the way.  She’s unsure if she wants me to do the rest or sell it. 

Via the interwebs


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## BMWAddict_W (Dec 29, 2010)

I have used NEO Oil full synthetic in my BMWs and other vehicles for 35 years since the 80s. I prefer Hastings Filters but have used Mann and K&N. My oil intervals are 15,000 miles/one year with excellent results. Have gone to 20,000 occasionally..


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## motobman (May 28, 2010)

FYI, I ordered a new 2020 BMW M240i coupe in early 2019. Put 2000 miles on it and took it to the dealer here in Tucson and had them change the oil. Was roughly $200 give or take.... Of course he said it didn't need it and they will do it again at 10K, but I feel better and plan on keeping this one longer than my 135, which was only 3 years.... Enjoy that Five Series, LOVE that color!


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## jadnashuanh (Jun 25, 2011)

When to change your oil really is condition based. An engine on timer may be a more reliable indicator but that is part of the CBS logic. The number shown really can change. On my (sold now) 535i 2011 GT, on a trip, before I left, it said change the oil in 4500-miles. That wasn't all that long since the last oil change, but most of that was shorter stop and go trips. On this one, I was going cross-country. Put about 4000-miles on the vehicle, mostly long days cruising on the interstate. WHen I got back home, it still said change the oil in about 4500-miles.

Short trips, dusty conditions, failure to get the oil fully hot to burn out any condensation or fuel that might accumulate (it takes longer that you think - it needs to be fully hot for a while) will all affect the life of the oil and the engine health. From my experience, the CBS seems to work. I generally end up changing the oil at a year, not because of the miles, but the time. I have also had some of the oil analyzed. The wear components were within range, and the anti-wear ones were not used up. The TBN number was still able to keep the pH within reason, too.

Oil today is not the same as what may have been available as little as 5-years ago, let alone 10 or 40. And, the manufacturing tolerances are way more exact today than they were along with the bearings. Synthetic oils hold their viscosity more reliably than petroleum based oil as the length of the molecular chain on the synthetic is consistent rather than an average where the longer chains get sheared over time, lowering the viscosity. Additive science is much better.

Finding a quality synthetic oil that passes the BMW specs will cost you a lot more than $40 for an oil change. Now, BMW publishes their spec, it's up to the oil manufacturer to decide if they want to meet it or even test to it. So, in theory, there may be some that would pass the BMW specs, but the opportunity to expand their market to sell to BMW owners would seem to be worth it for that one-time testing. So, I'm not sure they would actually pass. Lots of oils already do test and are good for lots of brands, why not BMW's? Maybe because they can't or don't want to meet that spec, and it might mess up a bigger market for others. Don't know.


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## markl53 (Nov 4, 2004)

N/mind...


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## rick47591 (Mar 17, 2017)

MarekBMW said:


> BMWs have "condition-based services" or CBS. The fob gets information on maintenance flashed to it from the car. The Service Advisor can see what maintenance services are needed by reding your key fob. If you reset oil change (lets say at 5k) on car computer CBS will not read (CBS) BMW paid oil change service untill 10k from last reset.
> 
> Hope this helps to clarify it.


My dealership allowed me to change my factory oil in my new X3M40i at 7k miles due to me leaving for an extended 2 week vacation driving from Indiana to Jackson Hole, Wy and other nearby cities. Upon returning, I am now getting my oil changed every 11k-12k miles. I am still getting free oil changes.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

BMWAddict_W said:


> I have used NEO Oil full synthetic in my BMWs and other vehicles for 35 years since the 80s. I prefer Hastings Filters but have used Mann and K&N. My oil intervals are 15,000 miles/one year with excellent results. Have gone to 20,000 occasionally..


I don't see no spec's on that oil's website. It's "off-road / racing" oil. It has additives (ZDDP) that have been banned for oils used in cars that have to meet emissions standards. It's also $16/quart.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Over The Road truck engines are built with life time oil fills with OCI same as overhaul interval - 500,000 miles. They do have 1µ bypass filters for diesel soot. 









Stop Changing Your Oil! | Edmunds.com


Outdated oil change advice is foisted on car owners to keep them coming back.



www.edmunds.com


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Doug Huffman said:


> Over The Road truck engines are built with life time oil fills with OCI same as overhaul interval - 500,000 miles. They do have 1µ bypass filters for diesel soot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been using synthetic oil since 1985. Only my BMW's have required it. In addition to better fuel economy (~2%), synthetic reduces wear and engine deposits. I got tired of giving "Autoputzer's synthetic oil speech," so I made a spreadsheet as I am wont to do. 

The spreadsheet uses all the variables affecting the cost of an oil change, conventional oil change interval, MPG on conventional oil, MPG improvement with synthetic (%), and the cost of a gallon of gasoline. One of the costs is the value of the car owner/driver's time, either doing an oil change or going somewhere to have it done. It first calculates the "break-even" synthetic oil change interval. It then calculates the savings from stretching the oil change interval out further. That value of the owner/driver's time is a big factor.

Even without considering the owner/driver's time, the added oil change interval mileage to break even would only be a few hundred miles. If you stretch oil change intervals from 3k or 4k miles to 7.5k or 8k miles, the savings would pay for most of an oil change (on non-BMW's, anyway).










Synthetic oil was a hard-sell to electrical engineers, but the spreadsheet convinced a lot of them.

Back in college, I had a part-time job as a bank courier. The courier fleet was about 15 vehicles, driving about 1M miles/year. They were using conventional oil and trying to change it every 3k miles. I proposed using synthetic at the Ford warranty requirement of 7.5k mile change intervals. That fell on deaf ears. I also proposed putting air in the tires, but that also fell on deaf ears.

About a decade after finishing college and working in my engineering job, I saw one of the bank's courier vans sitting on the side of the interstate. About a half mile down the road, I saw one of the same guys I worked with walking toward the van with a gas can. That gave me a good laugh. If he'd had synthetic oil in his engine and air in his tires, he would have made it the three or four miles back to the courier office (which had a gas pump in the parking lot).


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

Autoputzer said:


> I got tired of giving "Autoputzer's synthetic oil speech," *so I made a spreadsheet....*


Say it ain't so! 



Autoputzer said:


> Synthetic oil was a hard-sell to electrical engineers, but the spreadsheet convinced a lot of them.


Soon after I selected my undergraduate major (electrical engineering), my father made this pithy observation (paraphrasing): "Check on your classmates in a decade or so. You'll find all the Mech. Es in their basements building ham radios _[remember those?]_ and all the EEs in their backyards working on cars."


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

ex-WB6AAZ


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Zeichen311 said:


> Say it ain't so!
> 
> Soon after I selected my undergraduate major (electrical engineering), my father made this pithy observation (paraphrasing): "Check on your classmates in a decade or so. You'll find all the Mech. Es in their basements building ham radios _[remember those?]_ and all the EEs in their backyards working on cars."


My BS is in ME, but I had a bunch of undergrad' and grad' EE courses. My job title was "electronics engineer," but I did some of both. With a different degree and job title, I could claim knowledge or ignorance in either discipline as necessary for the particular circumstance at hand.

My biggest professional accomplishments always involved Excel, though. I once built at $300k Excel workbook (multiple spreadsheets in a file). It took me over a year and I had people feeding me data and writing the operators manual.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Doug Huffman said:


> ex-WB6AAZ


I guess a nuclear engineer screwing around with a radio in his basement is safer than an electrical engineer screwing around with a nuclear reactor in his basement.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Those idiots at the bank courier office not putting air in their tires was one of my motivations for developing "Tire Whispering". Tire Whispering also uses Excel. It all comes together.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

jadnashuanh said:


> Finding a quality synthetic oil that passes the BMW specs will cost you a lot more than $40 for an oil change. Now, BMW publishes their spec, it's up to the oil manufacturer to decide if they want to meet it or even test to it. So, in theory, there may be some that would pass the BMW specs, but the opportunity to expand their market to sell to BMW owners would seem to be worth it for that one-time testing. So, I'm not sure they would actually pass. Lots of oils already do test and are good for lots of brands, why not BMW's? Maybe because they can't or don't want to meet that spec, and it might mess up a bigger market for others. Don't know.


Castrol full synthetic 0w-40 used to meet BMW LL01 specification but lost it; however, it is all I use in the N52k, available at Walmart for $22/5 quart jug. Despite losing its LL01 certification, UOAs show it to out-perform some oils that do, such as Castrol 5w-40 FS and Liquimoly 5w-30. I don't worry nor care about the BMW spec, as the oil still meets more stringent MB and Porsche specifications. Mann filters are free after the 1st purchase, so that puts an oil change with top-quality oil (based on UOAs) at $30-35/change. 

"Engines have tighter tolerances" is often thrown around for why engines can run a longer OCI. But what does that quote mean? 1) there is better quality control of production and manufacturing so that all "gaps" have smaller deviation from each other. 2) those caps themselves (such as piston-wall clearance) can themselves be smaller, helped in part due to #1, but also improved metallurgy and improved oil technology with regards to stable base stocks and additives. This means that a thinner oil can be used, but not necessarily longer, as the oil molecules of even the best full synthetics degrades over time. A "tighter tolerance" means that there is less "cushion" or "safety zone", as a small amount of oil break-down results in increased friction, decreased film-strength, metal-metal contact, expansion and failure. GM L83 and L86 K2 truck engines have experienced lifter failure at a much higher rate than the LV3 in that same chassis, or the L86 in cars. Why? Despite no change in lifter or VLOM part numbers, the former two specific 0w-20 oil, while the latter specify 5w-30. Same clearances, same lifters, different failure rates. The 5w-30 is thicker than the -20 oil, thereby having greater "safety net." The L82 in the T1 chassis have been seizing their lifters inside of a couple thousand miles, an issue that persists even with updated lifters and part numbers. These don't have the heat associated with turbo engines. All else being equal, a 0w/5w-30 oil could have a longer OCI than a 0w-20.

So what does oil do? Lubricate, of course. But don't discount the ability of oil to transfer heat from bearing surfaces, cylinder heads and valves. Don't confuse oil pressure with oil flow; the two are inverses. Pressure doesn't cool, flow does. I run a 5w oil in an engine originally specced for 30w and have seen sump temperature drop by 15*F. Once its fully broken in, will try out 0w to further decrease wear on a cold-start. If I removed the oil cooler from my VW, the engine would overheat nearly instantly, despite a proper oil pump and coolant flow across the heads and cylinders. Oil viscosity must be reduced enough to be able to flow through ever tighter tolerances and wick away heat, but still be thick enough to separate moving surfaces. As oil ages, its ability to absorb and remove heat decreases, resulting in hotter localized temperatures. 

The engine oil circuit is also a hydraulic system on VVT systems. The VVT solenoids' plungers lack seals or gaskets; pressure and is created based on a perfectly, tightly, machined surface, much like the exhaust manifolds on an Oldsmobile small block or an ACVW cylinder head. The slightest particulate, varnish, or other impingement to solenoid action will affect economy and power, but won't cause a DTC until bad enough. This is why the solenoids have their own filters upstream in the oil circuit, which can varnish and clog. The heads and cams are also usually at the end of the oil circuit, so pressure drop through the system can have disastrous affects; if you've ever had to replace cam phasers, you know how important oil flow to them is. Here's a worn, knocking cam phaser I replaced a few years ago, on an otherwise spotless and varnish-free engine, caused by a failed hydraulic chain tensioner at 150k miles.






Lastly, seal conditioning additives wear out before others, resulting in oil leaks. The types of additives themselves can be particularly problematic for a DI engine, ask any N55 or VW EA888 owner (or even some L83s) who have had to invest in walnut blasting or a catch-can. Some oil comes from PCV blow-by, but some also comes from valve-stem weep, the oil cooks off, and the additives cook the valves.

Used oil analyses are great, until they aren't. Where does the line get drawn between "ok" and "not ok?" Sometimes, the line has to be crossed in order to find it, which IMO is not a good plan. Stretching the OCI until metals increase beyond acceptability isn't a great long-term plan, as the damage is done and new oil won't repair wear. There's also more to the report than simply metals, as oil serves purposes beyond simple lubrication. There's plenty of cases of sludged and failed engines that strictly followed the recommended maintenance: VW 1.8T and EA888 2.0 engines, Chrysler 2.7 V6, Ford Tritons and Ecoboost., Volvos with VVT. BMW M54 engines see CCV issues and oil consumption from stretching the OCI, sometimes not exceeded BMWs maintenance schedule. Remember, a UOA is merely a tool used to guide maintenance, not the law; the UOA judges condition of the used oil itself, looking for clues about the condition of the engine, but clues can be misleading or misinterpreted. We run UOA on our marine diesels on every oil change; positive analyses didn't stop one of the piston-cooling nozzles from clogging and destroying the entire cylinder on a $150k engine midway through an OCI, however. Tearing down and rebuilding a few engines is an invaluable educational experience.

I dunno... coked valves, leaking seals, solenoid valve stiction, oil usage (1 quart every 1000 miles being “acceptable?” Nope) cam timing issues, high CHTs; even if the main bearings are fine, I'd prefer not to deal with any of the other side-affects of stretching the OCI too far, either. 

Some more fun reading:









Oil Cooling - A Deeper Look







www.verus-engineering.com













The Lowdown on Oil Breakdown


“The oil is degrading” is an all-too-common phrase uttered during numerous oil analysis case studies courses I’ve taught over the past few years. This is because oil breakdown is a significant concern for the operators of critical industrial equipment. When oils degrade, their lubricating...




www.machinerylubrication.com


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## joeyv1985 (Dec 10, 2021)

joeyv1985 said:


> Thank you for the input. I went ahead and scheduled an “Oil Change Only” with the BMW dealership here in Las Vegas towards the beginning of next month. Per the service technician, “just so you don’t push out the 10K mile scheduled maintenance and oil change, don’t do anything but the oil change when you come in”. After the 10K mile oil change in about December, I’ll go back to changing my oil every 5K miles. I’m a creature of habit I guess. I don’t mind paying for that extra oil change. It’s either that or lose money at the Blackjack Tables.


I had an appointment at my local BMW dealership and I didn't go through with it. I'll wait until 5K miles.


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## Beamer Schemer (Jun 1, 2016)

MarekBMW said:


> Peace out gentlemen, few more years BMW and other manufacturers will go EV route....we won't have to argue about OCI


I seriously hope not and I seriously doubt that. I saw an interview with GM CEO not long ago about building new battery factories. She would defo agree with you.


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## HotGrbg (Apr 23, 2021)

Beamer Schemer said:


> I seriously hope not and I seriously doubt that. I saw an interview with GM CEO not long ago about building new battery factories. She would defo agree with you.











BMW to phase out fossil-fuel burning cars from main plant in three to four years


The ICE cars currently made in Munich will be produced in BMW's factories in Austria and the UK in future.




www.cnbc.com




Almost every manufacturer has given a rough estimate of phasing out if ice vehicles.


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## dukedkt442 (Feb 12, 2013)

Yet BMW just announced next-gen L6 and V8 engines. 

The companies do what they do for profit. Once insurance, safety, cost, etc. show electric continues to be a novelty, they'll do what they need to for profit, which is IC. 

Even if gas is $10/gallon (which would be due to taxes), my tanks would still be cheaper than some electron-driven crap. OPEC and Big Oil won't stand for that, so I can promise that they are working on synthetic fuels.

Living under high tension wires is a known carcinogen, I wonder what the long term effects of sitting atop a high voltage motor will be?


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## BMWAddict_W (Dec 29, 2010)

The only way for EV technology to dominate is through government mandates and world communism. We all recently experienced how that has worked out. Capital and free market technologies still favor petroleum energy (abiotic oil) which is a natural renewable resource produced within the earth's magma and rises through the crust.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

BMWAddict_W said:


> The only way for EV technology to dominate is through government mandates and world communism. We all recently experienced how that has worked out. Capital and free market technologies still favor petroleum energy (abiotic oil) which is a natural renewable resource produced within the earth's magma and rises through the crust.


Except ICE fuel costs are heavily subsidized...

The amount of money and blood we've spilled to secure oil from the Middle East to keep fuel costs down is one example... If anything the EV push will give us greater energy independence...

EV subsidies are no more communism than the government funding IT development was in the 70s that gave us the modern technology boom we're in the middle of...

But, sure, go back to using words without grasping the meaning of them...


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## BMWAddict_W (Dec 29, 2010)

LogicalApex said:


> Except ICE fuel costs are heavily subsidized...
> 
> But, sure, go back to using words without grasping the meaning of them...


Huh, who said anything about 'subsidizes'? I mentioned 'government mandates' which is how communism rules. The government limitation/shutdown of petroleum production, pipeline construction, research and exploration forcing the rise in demand and costs creating an artificial demand for EV is antithetical to an American free market society.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

BMWAddict_W said:


> Huh, who said anything about 'subsidizes'? I mentioned 'government mandates' which is how communism rules. The government limitation/shtdown of petroleum production, pipeline construction, research and exploration forcing the rise in demand and costs creating an artificial demand for EV is antithetical to an American free market society.


Conveniently ignoring the oil scarcity that is quickly upon us?



> The EIA predicts that by 2025 Brent crude oil's nominal price will rise to $66/b. By 2030, world demand is seen driving Brent prices to $89/b. By 2040, prices are projected to be $132/b. By then, the cheap oil sources will have been exhausted, making it more expensive to extract oil. By 2050, oil prices could be $185/b.


Source: What's Affecting Oil Prices in 2022?

But sure, keep pretending that oil is as unlimited as the sun's rays (when they are exhausted we'll be long gone)... You should be happy that there is a massive push toward EVs. It is softening oil demand and, in turn, softening the price pressure on oil as scarcity continues to climb... Since you're a "free market" sort of guy.


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## Beamer Schemer (Jun 1, 2016)

HotGrbg said:


> BMW to phase out fossil-fuel burning cars from main plant in three to four years
> 
> 
> The ICE cars currently made in Munich will be produced in BMW's factories in Austria and the UK in future.
> ...


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## BMWAddict_W (Dec 29, 2010)

Beamer Schemer said:


>


You all realize EV are built and powered by petroleum and coal energy. Where do you think 27/7 electricity comes from? Wind and sunshine does not occur 24/7. It's funny how people worried about cell phone radiation affecting their brains and reproductive organs or phone batteries exploding, but are sitting on top of gigantic batteries commuting around town. Humorous how my boss worries about his hour commute delayed by unsuspected accidents or traffic that will drain his battery usage causing him to be stranded. EV will remain a niche market.


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## Beamer Schemer (Jun 1, 2016)

Seems OCI is a slippery subject. Will it become an obsolete one along with the ICE? Certainly at some point but what WILL we all be riding years from now, (apart from each other that is ). I’m up for a hover bike like the ones in Riddick or Star Wars.


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## Beamer Schemer (Jun 1, 2016)

BMWAddict_W said:


> You all realize EV are built and powered by petroleum and coal energy. Where do you think 27/7 electricity comes from? Wind and sunshine does not occur 24/7. It's funny how people worried about cell phone radiation affecting their brains and reproductive organs or phone batteries exploding, but are sitting on top of gigantic batteries commuting around town. Humorous how my boss worries about his hour commute delayed by unsuspected accidents or traffic that will drain his battery usage causing him to be stranded. EV will remain a niche market.


Not sure why you quoted me in this? Just because I choose a couple of genial emoticons instead of arguing against an opinion doesn’t mean I agree with it. Not sure I agree with your comment either. Something IS going to have to replace the ICE when the oil runs out. EV’s are currently the only alternative for most people who plan to keep their bosses happy. The only question is when? Electronics are always high priced initially. The smart phone is a good example. I remember the expensive bricks that businessmen carried years ago. Now everybody has one. I was an adult before anybody own a computer and because of that I will likely not be around to witness the EV revolution which is a good thing for me. I could care less either way. That’s a future for the kids to sort out. Good luck to them.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

With enough green, cheap electricity you could make green gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel from air and water.


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## BMWAddict_W (Dec 29, 2010)

Beamer Schemer said:


> Seems OCI is a slippery subject. Will it become an obsolete one along with the ICE? Certainly at some point but what WILL we all be riding years from now, (apart from each other that is ). I’m up for a hover bike like the ones in Riddick or Star Wars.


And the 2021 hover board like Marty McFly's.


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

Autoputzer said:


> With enough green, cheap electricity you could make green gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel from air and water.


And then, in a world free of greenhouse gasses (selectively scavenged to manufacture hydrocarbons), we'd probably all roast to death from the thermodynamic waste heat of converting waste gasses to fuels to waste gasses to fuels, _ad infinitum_.

TANSTAAFL.


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