# Sticky  Learning from others mistakes



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Galun said:


> No, can you post the video or a link?


Here's another one... what did this guy do wrong?


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

PunchIt said:


> Yup! Watched the larger file. One hand on the wheel, using slicks AFAI can tell from the photos.
> 
> edit: rewatched the larger file and now think it is a 5 spd. But that doesn't change my opinion of having two hands on the wheel or the use of his racing slicks in the rain vs. his street tires.
> 
> ...


This happened to m3lieb over at bimmerforums.com. Here is his story...

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146048


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Here's another one... what did this guy do wrong?


He went into the corner too fast and realized it too late. He lifted or hit the brakes, causing oversteer.

As for the car flipping, it's hard to tell, but I think the car slid sideways into the grass. The irregularites in the ground "catches" the tires, and caused the car to flip. I know there is achicane somewhere around there that isn't always used (ie extra pavement), but I think it is slightly further down the track.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

elbert said:


> He went into the corner too fast and realized it too late. He lifted or hit the brakes, causing oversteer.


Yup!

He was following the Porsche in front of him... thus he took the turn too fast and way too early!


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## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

Andy said:


> This happened to m3lieb over at bimmerforums.com. Here is his story...
> 
> http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146048


Thanks Andy


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## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Yup!
> 
> He was following the Porsche in front of him... thus he took the turn too fast and way too early!


Yup. I was at a Beer & Track event this past Wed. night. We watched a bunch of incar cameras from various races (NHIS, Glen, etc...) one of the things that was common in a few of them is the "monkey see, monkey do" error. Guys would follow the car infront of them through a bad line, instead of racing the track, they are just following the guy in front of them.

The guy in this video tries to catch the car infront of him, and possibly pushes beyond the limits of th car, but he definately took the corner too early. Not sure if he lifted or broke or the front wheels ran onto the inside of the corner and upset the car. At that speed it looks like he was close to 10/10ths and a little upset proved costly.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

sergiok said:


> BTW, that clip in the OT forum doesn't show enough of the previous turns.
> 
> Shifting at the apex?!?!? Crazy IMO.
> 
> ...


I think the real problem with this guy is one I spotted at the onset of the video. I immediately thought that when I get to the crash, it's going to be at the exit of a corner.

Why?

Because he's putting TONS of steering input in at the entrance of the corner. He's clearly trusting the back end of the car too much.

By throwing that much lock on in the corners, he was just asking for exit oversteer... the Nascar boys call it "pushy loose." What it means is that the front understeers a bit then bites right at the exit, causing oversteer.

To those who haven't experienced it before, or had it pointed out to them, it seems like the car is loose on exit, when the real problem is that the driver is inducing (or at least not recognizing) understeer which is *causing* the oversteer at exit.

Well, the main thing is that the folks in the car are ok.

It's easy to judge in hindsight, but the abundance of steering lock with no respect for the rear end is what struck me about that crash video.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

PunchIt said:


> The guy in this video tries to catch the car infront of him, and possibly pushes beyond the limits of th car, but he definately took the corner too early. Not sure if he lifted or broke or the front wheels ran onto the inside of the corner and upset the car. At that speed it looks like he was close to 10/10ths and a little upset proved costly.


And this dork wasn't concentrating! He was too busy doing "in-car" commentary. :tsk:

He didn't seem to be taking what he was doing seriously enough and paid for it... IMHO.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

racerdave said:


> And this dork wasn't concentrating! He was too busy doing "in-car" commentary. :tsk:


Yeah, the in car commentary is quite comical. :bustingup :rofl:


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Yeah, especially the end.


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## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

OK, who's got the next video? Let the learning continue.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

PunchIt said:


> OK, who's got the next video? Let the learning continue.


Turn 2 - Laguna Seca (1.23mb)


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

His first problem was he was too busy :blah: 

I think he got into the corner too hot, the car started understeering pushing him outside and off-camber. He probably corrected, but gave the car too much gas too soon exiting the corner.


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Here's another one... what did this guy do wrong?


Oh I remember this one. I had seen it!

Yeah, the last in-car commentary was classic.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

sergiok said:


> Turn 2 - Laguna Seca


Once again :spank: STFU and drive! 

He's not in a Wal-Mart parking lot, he's at a racetrack with real consequences.

Like our pal in the Subaru at Lime Rock, I seriously think he was too busy talking and thinking about what he was saying to realize the car was that close to the edge, gave it too much gas and that's why it came around.

Obviously surprised the sh!t out of him. :rofl:

Thankfully he didn't hit anything.

Remember the friction circle concept? This guy needs to revisit it, along with a strip of duct tape for his mouth.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

elbert said:


> His first problem was he was too busy :blah:
> 
> I think he got into the corner too hot, the car started understeering pushing him outside and off-camber. He probably corrected, but gave the car too much gas too soon exiting the corner.


Actually, it's the instructor that is talking. :blah:

He's carrying allot of speed coming into the turn. It's interesting that the instructor is telling him "that's why Laguna is so hard on brakes" because the exit of 1, entrance to 2 is a downhill and he's probably going from 110mph to 125mph into the Andretti Hairpin. He simply didn't slow the car down enough for the turn.


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

racerdave said:


> Once again :spank: STFU and drive!


Well sometimes my instructors ask me to vocalize what I am doing / seeing to make sure I am doing the right things. Vocalizing it actuall made it easier for me to actually do the things that I am supposed to be doing. And these are great instructors who asked me to do it - including the head instructor of the pacific region.

Just trying to have a balanced view here  Of course talking too much can be a big distraction, like the first case when he seemed like he was showing off to the video cam and the second case where they were kinda chit-chating.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Galun said:


> Well sometimes my instructors ask me to vocalize what I am doing / seeing to make sure I am doing the right things. Vocalizing it actuall made it easier for me to actually do the things that I am supposed to be doing. And these are great instructors who asked me to do it - including the head instructor of the pacific region.
> 
> Just trying to have a balanced view here  Of course talking too much can be a big distraction, like the first case when he seemed like he was showing off to the video cam and the second case where they were kinda chit-chating.


True, thing is... on a fast track, you can't talk about the turn you are in... things are happening so fast, you have to talk about 200+ feet in front of you before you ever get to the turn, otherwise, whatever you are talking about is already in the past.


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## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

I agree, it seems that he came into the corner too fast. Althought, I don't really know the track, it seems he could be further to the outside and apexed a bit late. Would that have helped? Last, he looks like his reaction time is pretty good, but it seems that if he had been constant on the wheel instead of turning, stopping, then turning again, the tail happy fun could have been under more control. Anyone agree?


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

PunchIt said:


> I agree, it seems that he came into the corner too fast. Althought, I don't really know the track, it seems he could be further to the outside and apexed a bit late. Would that have helped? Last, he looks like his reaction time is pretty good, but it seems that if he had been constant on the wheel instead of turning, stopping, then turning again, the tail happy fun could have been under more control. Anyone agree?


Yes, he definitely should have been a bit closer to the turn in cone and he actually earlied this turn. I think this is a 190 degree turn and if you single apex this turn (the racing line is actually a double apex) you have to wait.... wait..... wait... for the qualifying apex to come around.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

I did a 2 day tracquest event at Laguna...Sergio's right about the single and double apex...most of the students were single apexing that turn, but you can see why that's not done in a race, because the inside would be wide open for a pass. From what I remember you need to go very deep before starting your turn...so I agree with Sergio that he began the turn too early and early apexed, also with too much steering input...he needed to straighten out the wheel sooner than he did at the end of the turn. I think his high entry speed scared him and that caused him to turn in too early. He could have bled off more speed by waiting to begin the turn in and staying on the brakes, thus giving him a better angle for the apex. That's an excellent and safe corner to practice throttle steering as well. I really had a lot of fun using the throttle to get the car turned so I could be hard on the throttle right at the apex.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Utlimately what sent him around was too much steering and too much throttle in combination.

This is fun.


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## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

racerdave said:


> This is fun.


It sure is. And educational too. Now, if we could somehow make it healthy or profitable :eeps:


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Actually, it's the instructor that is talking. :blah:


Oh, it seemed to be the driver yapping about braking.



sergiok said:


> He's carrying allot of speed coming into the turn.


Yeah, I know. That's what I said.


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## msimon8 (Jul 30, 2003)

PunchIt said:


> It sure is. And educational too. Now, if we could somehow make it healthy or profitable :eeps:


Step 1: Coment on driving "incedents"
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Galun said:


> Well sometimes my instructors ask me to vocalize what I am doing / seeing to make sure I am doing the right things. Vocalizing it actuall made it easier for me to actually do the things that I am supposed to be doing. And these are great instructors who asked me to do it - including the head instructor of the pacific region.
> 
> Just trying to have a balanced view here  Of course talking too much can be a big distraction, like the first case when he seemed like he was showing off to the video cam and the second case where they were kinda chit-chating.


Well, I certainly understand the instructor's reasoning. You're just verbalizing the same thoughts in your head, which may serve as a good reminder for "brake now, gentle turn-in, ease into the gas, etc."

But like you said... it's the nature of the talk. If you're doing what you and the instructors said about vocalizing, that's one thing. But doing your own "Paul Page" (oh how I hate that toad-man) while your driving (Subaru RS driver) or chit-chatting (Laguna tank slapper) then that's a lack of concentration, no two ways about it.

That said, my favorite way still is to not talk during the run, but pull in after your run and close your eyes and think about your laps... where the car did what, what your inputs were at the time, your line, etc, in order to separate what you are causing the car to do and how the car is handling. It's a good way to separate what the car is doing versus what you are *causing* the car to do.

But since we all learn and respond to things differently, use whichever way works best for you.

But learn from our two buddies about chit-chatting and doing in-car commentary. Don't do it!


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

My take on in car 'yapping' is that it is track dependent. Some tracks, you simply don't have the time to talk about each turn. There is simply too much happening. Other tracks, there's tons of times between the turns. 

Then again, the driver has to be receptive to this 'talking' as well and it's hard at times to listen, comprehend, act while they are also driving. Some people will tune out what the instructor is saying.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Another Laguna Seca clip...

Turn 5 (2.36mb)


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

Maybe too much braking during turn-in (like he was trying to trail-brake but not doing a good job), snapping the tail out.


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## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

elbert said:


> Maybe too much braking during turn-in (like he was trying to trail-brake but not doing a good job), snapping the tail out.


I remember when I did a track event two years ago, one of the instructors said that the S2000s break free very easily. That anytime they were pushed to the limit and the driver lifted they snap spun.

Any ideas? Maybe something to do with driveline?


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

PunchIt said:


> I remember when I did a track event two years ago, one of the instructors said that the S2000s break free very easily. That anytime they were pushed to the limit and the driver lifted they snap spun.
> 
> Any ideas? Maybe something to do with driveline?


The s2k had some revisions recently to the suspension to help dial out the tendency to snap oversteer. Looking at that vid, as soon as the driver released the brake, you can see the left front almost immediately countersteering.

If the driver mis-matched revs bad enough to cause a spin, you'd see the rears lock up.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

elbert said:


> Maybe too much braking during turn-in (like he was trying to trail-brake but not doing a good job), snapping the tail out.


yeap, you can see his brake lights were lit throughout the whole turn. My guess is he saw the M coupe in his mirror and didn't want to let him by, so ended up too hot in the turn and tried to still save it. Ironically, he didn't let off the brake until he had already started to spin...which was his second mistake. When you've lost it, you should have brake and clutch in. Frankly if he had gotten on the gas at turn in I think he would have made it...those S2000s handle great! Worst case he would have dropped two wheels at track out, which would have been better than almost getting T-boned at the apex. Kudos to the M coupe driver for having his car in control.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

PunchIt said:


> I remember when I did a track event two years ago, one of the instructors said that the S2000s break free very easily. That anytime they were pushed to the limit and the driver lifted they snap spun.
> 
> Any ideas? Maybe something to do with driveline?


There is nothing wrong with the S2000 at all...its a pure driver's car. Yes Honda is revising the suspension and dialing in more understeer at the behest of the legal deparment I'm sure. This will help mask driver's mistakes (lifing/braking in a turn). Virtually any car would have spun if taken through turn 5 with the brakes on....braking should be done in a straight line.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

StahlGrauM3 said:


> Ironically, he didn't let off the brake until he had already started to spin...


He didn't do enough braking before the turn-in point and in conjunction with trail braking and the change in camber of the road, he managed to lose too much traction in the rear. This is a great example of why you should get your braking done _before _ your turn-in point.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Not much to add that you guys haven't already said, except I also think he turned in too late.

That, combined with the braking mistakes you've cited = spin.


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## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

Next.....


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

racerdave said:


> Not much to add that you guys haven't already said, except I also think he turned in too late.
> 
> That, combined with the braking mistakes you've cited = spin.


I can't tell if he turned in too late, but what is apparent is that he didn't preload the suspension for the turn-in. It appears that he's snapping the wheel over and there just isn't enough preloading on the suspension for the turn.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

PunchIt said:


> Next.....


I hate seeing clips like this one. I have my theory as to what happened but I want to read what people post first though.

Viper crash at PIR (1.8mb)


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

ugh what a crash. This one has me stumped. Pretty rare a car would swerve just like that for the wall.

Wild guess is either:
--he locked up the rears by mismatching revs
--something broke.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

sergiok said:


> I hate seeing clips like this one. I have my theory as to what happened but I want to read what people post first though.
> 
> Viper crash at PIR (1.8mb)


Wow. It appears only one rear wheel locked up, so I'm guessing he mis-shifted from 5th...tried to get 4th and was really in 2nd. If so, not only does he have body damage, but also a blown engine.


SMG does have its benefits.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Jim44 said:


> Yeah, but that turn is ~80-90mph, given type of car, gearing, etc. I'm in 5th in the 325is (3.91 diff) from Turn 9 through to Turn 11.


3.91? :yikes: man... mine's 2.93...


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

*Good car control skills*

How to do it right!

Slide

(I think Stuka can appreciate this clip)


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

sergiok said:


> How to do it right!
> 
> Slide
> 
> (I think Stuka can appreciate this clip)


That may be "how to do it right" if you've entered a drift competition. Otherwise, it's just _slow_.


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

sergiok said:


> How to do it right!
> 
> Slide
> 
> (I think Stuka can appreciate this clip)


Hehe. Where is that at (track/turn)?


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Yep, I'll agree with Solo II///M... cool, but slow. 

There was really no magic to that. Just a foot full of throttle on the exit on a damp track.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

SoloII///M said:


> That may be "how to do it right" if you've entered a drift competition. Otherwise, it's just _slow_.


Well, yeah, that's what I meant. Anyone who has any amount of knowledge would know that sideways isn't fast.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

scottn2retro said:


> Hehe. Where is that at (track/turn)?


I forgot where I downloaded it from. I think it's a track in England. :dunno:


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Race.


 :eeps: Was that VJ? :eeps:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Ok... new one....

I do NOT want to be anywhere near this guy on the track... all of them actually.... it's utter chaos.... and scary to no end...   

http://bne002z.webcentral.com.au/bne_sm026/CalderPark.wmv


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## SLang (Dec 1, 2003)

:yikes:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SLang said:


> :yikes:


Yeah... isn't it? Watching it gave me the heebee jeebies...


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

doeboy said:


> Yeah... isn't it? Watching it gave me the heebee jeebies...


Really scary stuff. When a guy goes off the track at the first corner... :tsk:

All of them were all over the place! Reinforces my belief that open track days (as opposed to DEs..) are to be avoided unless your car is disposable.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SoloII///M said:


> Really scary stuff. When a guy goes off the track at the first corner... :tsk:
> 
> All of them were all over the place! Reinforces my belief that open track days (as opposed to DEs..) are to be avoided unless your car is disposable.


Exactly... especially when that WRX went off and he had to try to avoid the guy, then it goes zooming across the track right in front of him. :yikes:


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

I was thinking about helping my wallet out a little bit by going to open track days in between BMW DE.... Not anymore!


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

That was a rather nutty free-for-all.

I do have to say that the driver of the camera car did a pretty good job apart from missing his braking point and overcooking a corner when he looked in the mirror for a car he was passing. Overall, I give him pretty high marks for avoiding all the melee.


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## SLang (Dec 1, 2003)

There's a good one to discuss in this OT thread. My comments from the thread are after the link. How many mistakes can YOU count in this clip?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55666



> Wow, some of the worst driving I've seen in a long time....the corvette guy getting into the rev limiter all the time, driving with his hand on the shifter when he's not shifting, missing entrances, apex's, and exits, mid corner downshifts and upshifts, dilly-dallying on the throttle, almost going off....etc., etc., ....
> 
> Ugly.....
> 
> or maybe he was just a beginner, but pretty scary considering it was open passing.


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## SLang (Dec 1, 2003)

Damn, he took it down.....maybe he was embarassed. :dunno:


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## binaryfarms (Feb 2, 2003)

link is back up and, uh, wouldn't it be easier to count the things he did right?

looks pretty scary, especially considering he doesn't make any indication that he's doing anything wrong, other than getting upset when the porkchop won't let him by in the middle of a turn. What group let's you drive like that AND with a passenger no less, is it just open lapping or what?

ADDENDUM - just watched the calder park clip :yikes: and the vette vs. Porsche clip in nothing in comparison. Who would put on events like this? It's no wonder insurance co.'s a putting blanket "no track" clauses in, that was ridiculous. It was a miricle that they didn't all ball up their cars. It certainly wasn't for lack of trying. All open lap days can;t be like this...or are they?


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> Exactly... especially when that WRX went off and he had to try to avoid the guy, then it goes zooming across the track right in front of him. :yikes:


That's an awesome clip!

Anyone know how to save those streams to my disk drive?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

sergiok said:


> That's an awesome clip!
> 
> Anyone know how to save those streams to my disk drive?


Right-Click... Save As....? :dunno:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> Right-Click... Save As....? :dunno:


Nope, the only thing that gets saved is this:



> [Reference]
> Ref1=http://202.139.234.98:80/bne_sm026/CalderPark.wmv


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Nope, the only thing that gets saved is this:


Try this:
Right-Click and Save as this


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> Try this:
> Right-Click and Save as this


Nope! Doesn't work with either IE or Netscape.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Nope! Doesn't work with either IE or Netscape.


Dunno... it sounds like they have configured their server so you can't do it. :dunno:


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

For the Calder Park, I had to left-click on it and just have it run from the browser window. It ran fine. Right-click to save doesn't work.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Does no one else have any 'good' clips??


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Not a racing clip, but kinda amusing nonetheless...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57866


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Reminds me of the Viper video.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779564&postcount=1


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

At the Vegas school last month, one of the instructors was telling me how they rein in the Viper drivers at their schools: they tell them that 13 percent of all Vipers ever made have been totalled. I haven't been able to find solid evidence for that figure, though it's not unbelievable.

--Andre


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Mr. Know-It-All said:


> Jay Leno is personally responsible for 2.


How do you know? Doh! That's right... sorry, I didn't read your sn.


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## 325ci.com (Sep 23, 2002)

this has been a very helpful thread. the best learning is learning from one's own mistakes; second to that is learning from other's mistakes. 

i have one question, though:

for the videos when the car flips, i see that people put their hands up on the ceiling of the car-- is that what you're supposed to do, or is that just a natural reaction? seems like if you have a cage it should be a nonissue that your roof will cave in on you, and isn't a stock car supposed to survive a rollover? :dunno:

also regarding the MR2 video-- MR2s, much like porsches are rear-weight biased (40F/60R) and RWD. lift throttle oversteer and snap oversteer are common with our cars if not driven properly hard to tell in the video what happened, but i'm guessing s/he lifted coming out of the corner after realizing that there was too much gas.

...waiting for more clips and comments; keep them coming! :thumbup:


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

One of my favorite videos is an multiple flip in WRC, with in car footage. Colin MacRae flat flipped a Ford Escort, some 5 times.

As soon as he lost it, he crossed his arms across his chest and was fine. His co-driver had arms flailing everywhere.


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## Bag's330Ci (Jul 22, 2003)

What Pinecone said.

Cross your arms and hold on tight. I think sticking your arm on the roof is just a natural reaction to hanging upside down (to help take the pressure off your bladder, if it hasn't already evacuated by then!).


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Not a track video and not for the faint of heart... quite gruesome... but definitely a lesson learned...

http://www.323ci.net/vids/redlight.mpeg


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

SergioK said:


> I went ahead and downloaded both the 28mb and the 49mb vid clip of him going around the track. The 28mb has the crash on it.


I am having a lazy Sunday afternoon and I just watched the clips. The guy's driving was giving me a headache just watching it. I wanted to reach into the video and grab his hands and put them at 9 and 3 and make them stay there. WTF is up with that one hand bling bling driving? :dunno:

Credit where due, he seems to have decent car control skills, certainly better than some of the A and B drivers who drive with DSC on "because I am so smooth and DSC doesn't kick in when I am smooth."


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Stuka said:


> ...drivers who drive with DSC on "because I am so smooth and DSC doesn't kick in when I am smooth."


 :tsk: :dunno: :angel:

:flipoff: :slap:


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## Strom (Aug 24, 2004)

Haha, I always tell myself that I am going to leave the DSC on for the first 2 laps when I go out on the track since I only do about 3 events a year, but I usually end up turning it off after the first turn of my second lap. At California speedway I had to turn it off after coming out of the pits up onto the oval. It was lighting up (and I was going 70 MPH) like a freakin christmas tree. The DSC in the E46 M3 is way way too intrusive.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Strom said:


> Haha, I always tell myself that I am going to leave the DSC on for the first 2 laps when I go out on the track since I only do about 3 events a year, but I usually end up turning it off after the first turn of my second lap. At California speedway I had to turn it off after coming out of the pits up onto the oval. It was lighting up (and I was going 70 MPH) like a freakin christmas tree. The DSC in the E46 M3 is way way too intrusive.


That's a straightaway! Oh... yeah... the M3 has about 150+ HP on me...


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## Strom (Aug 24, 2004)

SergioK said:


> That's a straightaway! Oh... yeah... the M3 has about 150+ HP on me...


haha no, I was referring to turn 1 and 2. I guess the severe angle of banking had the DSC confused. Anyone else with an E46 M3 have this problem?


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Strom said:


> haha no, I was referring to turn 1 and 2. I guess the severe angle of banking had the DSC confused. Anyone else with an E46 M3 have this problem?


What's DSC?   :bigpimp:

Never used it, never will. :thumbdwn:


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

vaio76109 said:


> Long video, am I looking for one point in particular?


Not too long into it the driver spins. Never catching up to that 240sx again.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

vaio76109 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Also a reason why "fast" driving should be kept on track. I presume he hit the brakes because he saw the motorcycle, but maybe he didnt. What if the motorcycle was 2 seconds behind from where it was?


Kind of hard to see... but what I'm guessing is he was a little further left (almost crossing the double yellow) than he probably wanted to be, saw the motorcyclist, got on the brakes mid-turn (and possibly even added steering lock to avoid the bike) and voila....


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

misterlance said:


> http://www.brannfors.com/~erik/videos/seattle_1002_small.wmv


Looks like maybe he added too much lock on the wheel too quickly while still on the power? Kinda happens so fast and it's hard to see out the front... plus my wet driving experience is very minimal at best... not to mention this is at club race level too. :dunno:


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## ayn (Dec 19, 2001)

found this crash video at the nocalevo forums... http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album06/EvoCrashOnly.avi


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

ayn said:


> found this crash video at the nocalevo forums... http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album06/EvoCrashOnly.avi


Wow.... I..... I'm.... speechless....  :yikes: 

Any idea what organization that was? I want to be sure to avoid them.... :eeps:

Sloppy everything everywhere by everyone....


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Don't see anything wrong with the event. Driver lost control and crashed the car. He probably shouted several 4-letter words. I am sure he will get it repaired and get back on the track soon. That's about it. It's not like someone crashed into him or he crashed into a another car due to lack of corner workers. There are a lot of events out there with open passing. As someone being passed, all you need to do is know when to slow down, point by if needed and the more experienced driver behind will take the hint. I have been in the being-passed and passing situations before. No big deal. You learn to deal with it.

Don't mind me saying this. I think CCA conditioned us WAY too much to think that everyone should behave a certain way. Not to mention the security blanket they put on us is way too thick. It's good for the novices. But there comes a point where we have this fear of attending other events. I have been there so I can vouch for that. I am sure there are others who feel the same way. Please chime in. I admit that my earlier posts about STUSA and SV were very critical. Since then I have completely changed my views about non-CCA events. Rather than critizing those events, why not learn something from these events instead? I overcame the challenges of dealing with aggressive drivers on the track and I learned how to anticipate irrational drivers who show signs of loosing it in front of me and learning how to avoid them if they do spin. All of which I can never pick up from CCA events because simply, these can't be taught by an instructor. 

Gosh, even DCI's latest newsletter use this as a marketing point, along the line of if you attend open track without instruction you are practicing bad habits. Do they really need this to boost their attendence? Lower the price for once. If my bad habit is pushing the limit and that allows me to shave a second off every lap, I'd rather go for it. 

The way I look at track driving, either do it to the limit or don't do it at all.

Again, not directed you John. Just sharing a view in general.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

ayn said:


> found this crash video at the nocalevo forums... http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album06/EvoCrashOnly.avi


So what was the cause of this off? Anyone care to speculate? :dunno:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SergioK said:


> So what was the cause of this off? Anyone care to speculate? :dunno:


Hard to tell because I couldn't really hear/see what the driver was doing. Looks like he tried to correct, but ended up just losing it... possibly trailing throttle oversteer? When he corrected, it seems like he didn't transfer weight to the right and add power to get the car to go right. Seems like the most of the weight was still on the front. I was also wondering after he countersteered, why he straighted it out when he was still on pavement and not going the right way... :dunno: Just a guess since I don't know if there are any things we need to handle differently in a AWD car, but I didn't think it should be THAT different... anyone who knows AWD vehicles well care to share their input?

My observations were just about everyone there was sloppy and all over the place. I'm not saying this is the fault of the organization holding the event, but I just don't want to be around those guys on track at the same time.


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## Tangent (Jan 18, 2004)

It looks like he _barely_ countersteered at all. He tried too hard to stay on the 911's tail, went too hot into the turn, lost the ass, and didn't counter enough. The amount of opposite lock he dialed in looked like it wouldn't have even been enough to avoid tapping the wall even if he had been at a dead stop on the track and was just slowly driving towards it.

The lessons I take from this are 1) drive your own car, not the one in front of you. Just because he can take a turn at _x_ mph doesn't mean you can. 2) When correcting oversteer it's allowable to apply more than a couple of degrees of opposite lock...


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

To me, it looks like he simply went in a bit too fast (or his tires were simply overheated) and earlied the first part. There is also a slight elevation/camber change which affects overall traction right at that section, but he should have accounted for that anyhow.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

doeboy said:


> My observations were just about everyone there was sloppy and all over the place. I'm not saying this is the fault of the organization holding the event, but I just don't want to be around those guys on track at the same time.


Where are the instructors? 

Those guys were all over the place, and clearly should not be out there solo. :thumbdwn:

If this is a lapping day, I certainly hope that they have no timing, or good luck getting insurance to cover the pwnzd Evo. :tsk:


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

OK, my post got lost.

1) At about 14:15 in the video he goes off line to let someone pass (I do NOT like the idea of the one being passed going off line, unless they are VERY slow, likebedding pads or scrubbing tires). He goes into teh gravel, you can hear it pinging the underside of the car.

2) This is th efirst hard left after getting gravel and junk on his right side tires.

3) The car comes around slightly, he makes a small countersteer, then he LOOKS AT THE WALL. Watch his head. At that time, the countersteer comes out, and he hits the wall. You GO where you are LOOKING, and he looked at the wall. rather than down the course. Too bad, because he was doing a pretty good job of turning his head for corners up to that point, but didn't keep doing that when he spun.

He may also not have gotten both feet in, most people tend to not lock up the brakes, which really does help.


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## ayn (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> Wow.... I..... I'm.... speechless....  :yikes:
> 
> Any idea what organization that was? I want to be sure to avoid them.... :eeps:
> 
> Sloppy everything everywhere by everyone....


It was TrackMasters at SP/Infineon, I think the event is fine, just kindda a dangerous track. Though, I don't think they should've solo'ed the driver.

more discussion here: http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5488


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## ayn (Dec 19, 2001)

SergioK said:


> So what was the cause of this off? Anyone care to speculate? :dunno:


From the discussion at NorCalEvo, sounded like he gave too much throttle, you can see that red light at the turbo gauge coming on way early at the turn. He didn't even try to save it, it's hard to say, but maybe he could've left-foot braked a bit to scrub off some speed and make the turn... walls are scary...


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

ayn said:


> It was TrackMasters at SP/Infineon, I think the event is fine, just kindda a dangerous track. Though, I don't think they should've solo'ed the driver.
> 
> more discussion here: http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5488


Most of those guys in the video were not closed to being on line, including the Evo driver. :tsk:

How they were signed off to go solo is beyond me.  :thumbdwn:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

ayn said:


> It was TrackMasters at SP/Infineon, I think the event is fine, just kindda a dangerous track. Though, I don't think they should've solo'ed the driver.
> 
> more discussion here: http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5488


I see.... yeah my remark was more because I don't want to be around those particular drivers on that track... and if they regularly attend that particular organization's events... guess whose events I'm avoiding... 

they were seriously ALL OVER the place... it was scary to watch some of the lines they took...


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

You should have seen the B Group at Octoberfest. 

Solo doesn't necessarily mean you are always ont he line, only that you know when you are not, and what to do when that happens. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, it is just how you handle them that makes some of us who we are and MS who he is. 

Early power may have helped get this started, but with sticky tires it can take a full lap to clean all the gravel off a tire. And like I said, watch his head, he corrects until he looks at the wall, then he drives into the wall. COMMON mistake.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Stuka said:


> If this is a lapping day, I certainly hope that they have no timing, or good luck getting insurance to cover the pwnzd Evo. :tsk:


It's not like if you crash you car at a CCA event you would report to the insurance company with 100% facts. Maybe you might, but I know lot of people don't.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

I get it John. The drivers not the event.

In that case, I doubt you will like me very much around you. :rofl: I try left-foot braking and different lines everytime I go out to BW.



doeboy said:


> I see.... yeah my remark was more because I don't want to be around those particular drivers on that track... and if they regularly attend that particular organization's events... guess whose events I'm avoiding...
> 
> they were seriously ALL OVER the place... it was scary to watch some of the lines they took...


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> It's not like if you crash you car at a CCA event you would report to the insurance company with 100% facts. Maybe you might, but I know lot of people don't.


I am not going to any event where they let people who are so hopelessly off line soloing. :thumbdwn: Again, where are the instructors? 

I know of two incidents where this was properly handled and the insurance paid without reporting less than "100% fact," which has another name, *insurance fraud*. 

So you are saying that you know lots of people who have had incidents (there aren't even that many to being with) at CCA events commit insurance fraud to get coverage? :dunno:


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