# 330 ZHP Dyno Chart.. Power drop



## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Car starts pulling strongly till 4000 RPM'S then it's like it lost fuel or hit a wall for a second till it hits 5000 RPM'S. After that it picks back up again. Drops about 45 Horsepower. This is with the stock pulleys on it! Stock exhaust as well with Cats.. Any ideas or opinions?  Car puts down some nice power at the wheels. This will pull on a M3 the way it is running now.


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## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

Did I read it right? 283 max power and 251 max torque? :dunno:


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

*Yes 283 and 251...*

:tsk: Should get better once Headers and exhaust get put on


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## allaboutme (Dec 22, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> Car starts pulling strongly till 4000 RPM'S then it's like it lost fuel or hit a wall for a second till it hits 5000 RPM'S. After that it picks back up again. Drops about 45 Horsepower. This is with the stock pulleys on it! Stock exhaust as well with Cats.. Any ideas or opinions?  Car puts down some nice power at the wheels. This will pull on a M3 the way it is running now.


That dyno is for a modded zhp right? What do you have on it? I thought it was a STOCK zhp at first...


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

*ZHP Engine is Stock*

Had nothing done to engine before instlling ASA Supercharger.


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## Nbtstatic (Oct 9, 2002)

stylinexpat said:


> Had nothing done to engine before instlling ASA Supercharger.


Probably shouldve mentioned that in the initial post, its sortof confusing....

Anyway, thats some nice power.

Nb


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

stylinexpat said:


> Had nothing done to engine before instlling ASA Supercharger.


OMG.... no wonder....

I was thinking "huh? that looks closer to an M3's numbers...."


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Looks like something might be fcuked up with the intake manifold runner valve, since it's supposed to cut in at 4k.

And what's up with the mega-rich AFR action in run 2?


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## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> Had nothing done to engine before instlling ASA Supercharger.


LoL! Thanks for mentioning that NOW! :eeps:


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## allaboutme (Dec 22, 2003)

Your torque is only ~10 lb/ft shy of an m3's... Your hp numbers, though, are in line with it. How much was the charger and installation?


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

There has been discussion before on the hiccup that occurs at ~ 4k rpm. As I recall, it has something to do with transisiton in VANOS operation.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

*Do you recall how to fix it or if it can be fixed?*

Anyone here know how to get rid of this problem? :tsk:


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## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

stylinexpat said:


> Anyone here know how to get rid of this problem? :tsk:


If it is a problem with the vanos cut in (which it looks to be), then the problem could probably be best resolved in software.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Dr. Phil said:


> There has been discussion before on the hiccup that occurs at ~ 4k rpm. As I recall, it has something to do with transisiton in VANOS operation.


Yup I think we've seen the hiccup on just about every E46 dyno so far... but that hiccup looks especially big for some reason... I wonder what it could be that's making it last so long before the power spools back up... :dunno:


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## JAWJr (May 4, 2004)

You know, I test drove a ZHP coupe 6sp yesterday for the first time. There were a few things I noticed:
First of all, I definetaly noticed this "hiccup", at around 4K, and the power would kick back in just after 5K. This was unfortunate because I didn't want to rev the new engine high so I never really got to "feel" the car. I did notice that once it hit 5K it felt like a turbo charger kicked in- major push you back in the seat action. Why is it doing this?

Throttle response- I noticed you couldn't blip the throttle at idle easily- you'd have to give it more gas. It sort of made a sound like a flooded two-stroke if you didn't use enough gas when revving it up from idle. This is hard to describe but it was very noticeable.

All in all, are these symptoms consistant with all ZHP's? All 330's? My father has a 99 328 which pulls so smoothly and quickly all the way to the red line. I guess I don't want to be slower than him, but most of all if I pay so much more for a car that has more character and supposedly is quicker- I want it to act like one.

Thanks for your insight~


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

That's more like what the dyno graph should look like.

This is a stock ZHP (but it had its own problem at the top end) on the same dyno at Evosport.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

So you DID change out your aftermarket supercharger pulley back to the stock one?


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

*Stock Pulley back on..*

The stock Pulley is back on with this Dyno test. This Dyno test was with stock pulley. The stock ZHP had more Torque then Horsepower, yet with the supercharger on the car prduced more power then Torque.. On Monday I will post a new DYNO of the car with Supersprint Headers and racing Cats on.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

does vanos actually "kick in" above a certain rpm ? i thought it was continuously variable and does not actually "kick in" like vtec or generically variable valve lift technologies do.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

HW said:


> does vanos actually "kick in" above a certain rpm ? i thought it was continuously variable and does not actually "kick in" like vtec or generically variable valve lift technologies do.


No, it doesn't 'kick in.' It's the variable length intake manifold valve that kicks over at that RPM.


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## Chocaine (Jul 1, 2003)

Also, you don't lose your entire warranty. If the supercharger causes a problem with the engine it won't be repaired under warranty, but they can't legally blame your supercharger for a problem with say the rear suspension if there is no correlation.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

*Pulley size was 140mm, stock one was 160mm*

Size was safe and boost was safe


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> ASA's tuning philosophy has been that the Siemens ECU can take care by adaptations. Then again that's for Euro BMWs. I am not running any reprogrammed ECU either, just a AFR controller. Rennsport is getting the s/w done very soon. That should be better.


No doubt those guys know a lot more about this than I do, so I won't argue with their design.

I'd like to know more about it, though. From what I've learned troubleshooting my P1193 DTC, the stock maps in the ECU should be whack for the sort of boost you get from the ASA kit. But hey, I've never designed a blower system, so what do I know :dunno:


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## killajoe (Apr 22, 2004)

JAWJr said:


> Isn't the dip for all ZHP's common at 4K rpm? I certainly noticed this when I did a test drive- it made me lurch forward in the seat b/c of the lost power. Picks up again at 5K- why is it so abrupt? This doesn't happen in regular 330's does it? Just a bit confused...


I've definitely got the dip on my ZHP and it is kind of annoying. In fact, unless I racing someone, I try to stay out of that no-man's zone and shift right under 4,000.

I'm considering AA Tuning's supercharger kit - they really stress the importance the software plays, and actually spent 80% of the R&D on it, not the blower. But then there's that warranty issue...

killajoe


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

I am running 6.5psi. The stock map is ok. But could be better. I am still running a tad bit lean on the upper end. We can discuss more when you come on down for the next B&M TS, which is June 19...wait, it's this Sat???



RKT BMR said:


> No doubt those guys know a lot more about this than I do, so I won't argue with their design.
> 
> I'd like to know more about it, though. From what I've learned troubleshooting my P1193 DTC, the stock maps in the ECU should be whack for the sort of boost you get from the ASA kit. But hey, I've never designed a blower system, so what do I know :dunno:


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> I am running 6.5psi. The stock map is ok. But could be better. I am still running a tad bit lean on the upper end. We can discuss more when you come on down for the next B&M TS, which is June 19...wait, it's this Sat???


Can't make that one, Vince. Father's day is the 20th. 

Looks like it's gonna be a bit longer before I see you guys again, and install my B&M short shifter.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> I am running 6.5psi. The stock map is ok. But could be better. I am still running a tad bit lean on the upper end.


Getting any DTCs? Or just discerning that from Vehicle Explorer?


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

*Car Runs Amazing with Supersprint Headers!*

These Headers do not have Cats in them! The breathing difference and sound is insane! CAr sounds like a Formula One car and sounds better then the M3 Engine sound. Never want to leave the thing now. The dip at 4000 is much better now, although the dip still exists but not as much! The dip is there but only a small one. The car pulls amazingly to Redline and the Pull after 5000 RPM'S is unbelievable with the ASA Supercharger combined with the Supersprint Headers. Headers are a must after ASA Supercharger. When you Rev the engine the higher the REVS the bigger the smile on your face.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

killajoe said:


> I've definitely got the dip on my ZHP and it is kind of annoying. In fact, unless I racing someone, I try to stay out of that no-man's zone and shift right under 4,000.
> 
> I'm considering AA Tuning's supercharger kit - they really stress the importance the software plays, and actually spent 80% of the R&D on it, not the blower. But then there's that warranty issue...
> 
> killajoe


Weird. I have no torque or power BELOW 4k rpm. After 4k the car comes alive. Before that, i'm dragging my butt.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> Weird. I have no torque or power BELOW 4k rpm. After 4k the car comes alive. Before that, i'm dragging my butt.


This is very subjective, of course, however...

What you describe would be one of the symptoms you would get if the resonance valve had failed and was stuck open. I'd have it checked.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

RKT BMR said:


> This is very subjective, of course, however...
> 
> What you describe would be one of the symptoms you would get if the resonance valve had failed and was stuck open. I'd have it checked.


really? the car has felt like this since the day i bought it. maybe i need to drive another zhp and see if it's different. :dunno:


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## killajoe (Apr 22, 2004)

*easy torque*



blueguydotcom said:


> Weird. I have no torque or power BELOW 4k rpm. After 4k the car comes alive. Before that, i'm dragging my butt.


Wierd? Not really. Max torque = 222lb @ 3500 RPM. You can see in the dyno below (lifted from this thread) that up to 4000 RPM, you get a nice torque curve for little effort. That's what I was getting at. Seems like you get 80%+ of the car's potential while staying under or around 4000 RPM. Now, if you really want to move, that's different entirely. Of course, you'll run up to 6000 or so to get the HP...

killajoe


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

killajoe said:


> Wierd? Not really. Max torque = 222lb @ 3500 RPM. You can see in the dyno below (lifted from this thread) that up to 4000 RPM, you get a nice torque curve for little effort. That's what I was getting at. Seems like you get 80%+ of the car's potential while staying under or around 4000 RPM. Now, if you really want to move, that's different entirely. Of course, you'll run up to 6000 or so to get the HP...


Folks, keep in mind the basic physics here... HP is a function of both the raw force the engine is producing (torque), and the RPM. So holding torque constant, HP will rise in a linear fashion with RPM. It's in the nature of the power/force equations for rotating systems.

However, acceleration is purely a matter of torque at the wheels, period. Acceleration is what you "feel" in terms of butt-dyno. If the torque output of the motor is flat across an RPM range, as in this case it just about is from 3-6k RPM, you will have the same acceleration through that range as long as you are in the same gear. IOW, in second gear, you will feel the same push in to your seat from 3-4k that you get from 4-5k, or 5-6k.

So don't judge the experience of how the car will feel based on HP. It doesn't tell you much.

That brief dip in the torque curve at around 4k RPM is very noticable, although fleeting and small, as you spin up through 4k and the resonance valve switches over.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

One more point about the variable intake runners and that resonance valve: The dyno picture we're talking about here shows really well the effect of this feature on the engine. You can clearly see the torque peak and then start to drop off around 3500, and then when the valve opens, the slope changes direction again and starts increasing until it peaks again at around 4750. Also note the much shallower rate of decay vs. RPM once it peaks with that valve open.










To get a rough idea of what the engine characteristics would be like without the two sets of different length runners and the valve, just extend the first curve according to its trend forward, and the second curve backward according to its trend. You'll get an idea of what the torque characteristics of the engine would look like, to a first-order approximation, without the dual intake runner scheme, and with one or the other set of effective runners.

As annoying as the little dip at 4100 rpm may be, it's trivial compared to the performance price we'd pay without it. This design is a big part of what gives the motor such a broad, fairly flat torque response.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

That ZHP curve there is probably a bad example because of the junk up at the upper RPMs. Go back to my original thread and look at doeboy's (the 2nd one) and mine (5th). The slope of the HP curve is different, naturally, but the torque curves are essentially identical.

Then take a look at the S54 M3 one (4th) that doesn't have this intake setup.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54518

It's obvious how the resonance system works.

IMO the fact that all of these (as well as the one we're discussing in this thread) were done on the same one dyno makes it an easy apples-to-apples comparison.


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