# 335d: DTUK CRD-T Vs. JBD box?



## Ligament (Jan 6, 2009)

I'll dyno my 2011 335d with the DTUK CRD-T box and post results, however I need instructions on how to do the dyno the right way, and in particular a way that will help posters on this board. 

What specific dyno should I look for, what gear to dyno in, what settings to have enabled on the car, etc would all be helpful to expedite this process. I don't have enough time to do research on this so if you could spoon feed me it would help.

I live in Seattle, WA and if any of you could recommend a good place to go for the Dyno would be appreciated. thanks!


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

62Lincoln said:


> Did a little digging around and here's what I found: http://www.hybridturbos.com/hybrid-...-turbos/bmw-330d-e90-e91-hybrid-turbocharger/
> 
> VERY interesting - I would imagine that Evolve would write a tune to take advantage of the upgraded capabilities of the turbo.


Very interesting indeed, reminds me of the modified wheels that people used to put on eclipses. If it works anything like them then it increases peak boost but also delays spool up a bit as the new larger compressor is now larger relative to the turbine. But looks like they do something to the turbine wheel to maybe help with the slower spool up?


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Ligament said:


> I'll dyno my 2011 335d with the DTUK CRD-T box and post results, however I need instructions on how to do the dyno the right way, and in particular a way that will help posters on this board.
> 
> What specific dyno should I look for, what gear to dyno in, what settings to have enabled on the car, etc would all be helpful to expedite this process. I don't have enough time to do research on this so if you could spoon feed me it would help.
> 
> I live in Seattle, WA and if any of you could recommend a good place to go for the Dyno would be appreciated. thanks!


The type of dyno doesn't really matter, since you are simmply measuring the delta between the baseline and tuned results. Dyno Jets are good machines as are Mustang Dynos. Don't get to fixated on the actual HP results; remember dynos are just a tool to measure gains. Find a shop that has the latest software and make sure they can get your torque readings. Most operators know what their doing, but generally speaking the dyno should be done in 4th gear, smoothing set to 5. You also want to make sure the environmental conditions are nearly the same i.e. outside temps, humidty etc. as well as make sure you car sat for the same amount of time (a hotter engine will produce lower results).


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## EYE4SPEED (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm confused - on their site, it does not show the t-box available for the US spec car. Or maybe I can't understand their English. If you order the t-box, will it still work on US spec cars?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Offhand I know two people who build custom turbo lits(intercoolers as well) and quite easily could make one for these cars. Now if they have the interest to do this or what they would charge is beyond my knowledge. They also of course could do custom exhaust work. One is in San Antonio and the other I believe San Diego(sp?). they mainly do domestic based race cars or custom street ones.


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

Snipe656 said:


> Offhand I know two people who build custom turbo lits(intercoolers as well) and quite easily could make one for these cars. Now of they have the interest to do this or what they would charge. They also of course could do custom exhaust work. One is in San Antonio and the other I believe San Diego(sp?). they mainly do domestic based race cars or custom street ones.


In 4 years or so when it is out of warranty I will probably experiment with this a bit. I figure adding a car a year or so for two years then the reliability is slightly less critical on any given car and I can play with swapping turbos and the like.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Sure but mentioning for the people having trouble finding a solution.


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

Snipe656 said:


> Sure but mentioning for the people having trouble finding a solution.


Tell them to post the build process and what they used if you happen to run into anyone. My hope is that by the time I do it maybe someone else will have already...


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Ligament said:


> Regarding the 3 channel DTUK box, Andrew told me a few weeks ago the 3 channel system is not available in the US.


Yes, he confirmed in an email that they are not offering it due to more costly and requires a power supply (12v input), and is more complex.

The 2 channel sounds to me to be about the best option out there, given the results shown so far and the price.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

EYE4SPEED said:


> I'm confused - on their site, it does not show the t-box available for the US spec car. Or maybe I can't understand their English. If you order the t-box, will it still work on US spec cars?


Eye for speed, yes they have the DTUK-CRD-T for the US spec 335D. No problema. Two folks on here have it installed, Stugouts and Ligament.

Price is BP 340 or about $550.00. If interested just send Andrew a note and tell him Ronin sent you.

I'm seriously interested.


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## Ligament (Jan 6, 2009)

It was 65 F yesterday in Seattle, and I threw 4 limp modes in an hour on MAP 1, +20% setting. Changed to MAP 1, +10% setting and no more codes all day despite hard driving. 

The higher settings are very sensitive to temperature in my car. However, I am still super happy with the unit. The manual warns not to go above +10% anyway, so does Andrew himself.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Stugots said:


> Limp mode can happen, yes. Running Map 3 at Stage 7 (30%) will trigger limp almost 100% reliably under WOT. Depending on conditions, Map 3 Stage 6 (20%) will do the same (interestingly enough, only under intense acceleration going from 2nd to 3rd).
> 
> I can reliably run Map 3, Stage 5 (10%) without concern for limp, and a massive increase in power and torque.





Stugots said:


> Baseline for my car was 245bhp. JBD yielded 308bhp, DTUK Program 3 Map 7 yielded the 365HP.
> 
> JBD at 100% and DTUK @ Program 3 Map 7.





Stugots said:


> Program 3 Map 7 can, and more often than not, will trigger limp and SES...it is very, very aggressive, and only seems to be content on very cool days.


So if program 3 and map 7 more often than not triggers limp/ses lights I see that setting as virtually unusable, despite the impressive gains on a dyno.

So I have distilled this down to program 3, map 5 is the useable setting, in which case I would be interested in seeing the hp/torque gains under this setting as compared to the JBD at 100%. I am guessing they are very similar.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Am I missing something here?:dunno:

Why would I want a tuner with 4 settings, two of which will most likely 100% set off the limp mode?

I'm getting the feeling it is best to just leave it alone.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Why would I want a tuner with 4 settings, two of which will most likely 100% set off the limp mode?


The same reason when you have an amp that goes to 11, that you turn it up to 11?


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## vicsx5d (Jan 1, 2011)

even if that is 365 at the crank, that's better then JBD. That tune sent my car into limp mode then stopped working alltogether. wanted to send it back but he'll only do a swap not refund.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> Am I missing something here?:dunno:
> 
> Why would I want a tuner with 4 settings, two of which will most likely 100% set off the limp mode?
> 
> I'm getting the feeling it is best to just leave it alone.


Simply put, it's the same reason that JB4 and PROcede has multiple options. Each car performs differently, resides in different areas, has different environmental conditions, etc. To be locked down to one safe value, while nice, is not something I want to be restricted to. I honestly wish someone would come up with something more along those lines for us, so that we could really tap into the potential of the car. And there aren't 4 settings, there are 28 settings. 



vicsx5d said:


> even if that is 365 at the crank, that's better then JBD. That tune sent my car into limp mode then stopped working alltogether. wanted to send it back but he'll only do a swap not refund.


The JBD is a solid, solid product. However, as I said above, not all cars are created equal, and while Terry (and the other tuners) do their best to create a 'safe zone' for the tunes so that you can enjoy them without (much) worry. You're the first person I've heard have that problem in over 2 years, to be honest.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

I think another thing we are over looking is that the fuel in Europe has much higher cetane than in the US. Combine that with all the different versions of software BMW has, differences between the cars themselves and just because those maps trigger codes here doesn't necessarily mean they will elsewhere depending on what those codes are of course.



cssnms said:


> So if program 3 and map 7 more often than not triggers limp/ses lights I see that setting as virtually unusable, despite the impressive gains on a dyno.
> 
> So I have distilled this down to program 3, map 5 is the useable setting, in which case I would be interested in seeing the hp/torque gains under this setting as compared to the JBD at 100%. I am guessing they are very similar.


I was under the impression that most cars couldn't run the JBD at 100% either without throwing a code?


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

hotrod2448 said:


> I think another thing we are over looking is that the fuel in Europe has much higher cetane than in the US. Combine that with all the different versions of software BMW has, differences between the cars themselves and just because those maps trigger codes here doesn't necessarily mean they will elsewhere depending on what those codes are of course.
> 
> I was under the impression that most cars couldn't run the JBD at 100% either without throwing a code?


I am not sure about which maps/settings trigger codes/limp on European cars, but I did a little digging around in the UK section on e90 post and many users experienced the same thing depending on map/setting. What I seemed to gather is that the limp/ses lights occur with high frequency.

As for the JBD, its hit or miss. Some can run it at 100% without issue while others can't. I run it at 100% all of the time. Once every few months it triggers limp mode.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Stugots said:


> Simply put, it's the same reason that JB4 and PROcede has multiple options. Each car performs differently, resides in different areas, has different environmental conditions, etc. To be locked down to one safe value, while nice, is not something I want to be restricted to. I honestly wish someone would come up with something more along those lines for us, so that we could really tap into the potential of the car. And there aren't 4 settings, there are 28 settings.


Difference being the jb4 and procede offer different maps by design to account for running meth, race gas etc, not so in the case of the jbd, dtuk etc. For the diesel it makes no sense. I tend to agree with flyingman here. It seems most tuners like to use the dyno numbers taken at the higher settings for marketing purposes.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

cssnms said:


> Difference being the jb4 and procede offer different maps by design to account for running meth, race gas etc, not so in the case of the jbd, dtuk etc. For the diesel it makes no sense. I tend to agree with flyingman here. It seems most tuners like to use the dyno numbers taken at the higher settings for marketing purposes.


Maybe some of those setting are for European guys who've removed the DPF? Of course given the options they have I'd go with a tune for that application but, who knows.

I'd say it may also be a possibility that DTUK uses the same internals for multiple applications across different manufacturers and that could contribute to why there are so many "map" options.:dunno:

It doesn't really matter when you get down to it. It's nice that both JBD and DTUK have options to adjust your tune to the maximum trouble free potential for your car.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

János said:


> I also recall seeing an animation somewhere, but couldn't find it. This is a good document however; on page 14 it shows several illustrations of how the two turbos work together.


That is a really good document. Thanks.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Snipe656 said:


> Looking past that page in that document it looks like the small turbo is on standby for most of the rpm range and the big one does the bulk of the power making.


Isn't the purpose of the smaller turbo to be ready for "immediate" power at the bottom of the power range (because it spools up so quickly)? And then the larger turbo, as you mention, does the heavy lifting beyond that point?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

62Lincoln said:


> Isn't the purpose of the smaller turbo to be ready for "immediate" power at the bottom of the power range (because it spools up so quickly)? And then the larger turbo, as you mention, does the heavy lifting beyond that point?


That is my understanding and the document appears to support that.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Terry @ BMS said:


> Hi Ronin!
> 
> Long time no talk.  For the JBD we used the dynojet at specialtyZ. You can not compare results from that dyno to another, especially a non-dynojet, as they will vary greatly. If you'd like to get together again at specialtyZ I'd be happy to pay for a dyno comparison of the systems. The JBD is a quick install easy to use type product so we've never been going for the most power with it. But if there really is something else out there making 30hp+ more (which I doubt) even if the install is more involved I would be very happy build a better mouse trap for you more serious guys. We're also working on a D meth kit currently.


Terry,

You know me...I'm always open to suggestions and options. No need for you to pay for the dyno...I'd be happy to throw up the car and the tunes for comparison. I still love the JBD, fwiw, and I still consider myself a very happy owner.

When it comes to the Meth kit, make sure to remember me when it comes time to test it. I have no problems driving up there and getting things set up.


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## Terry @ BMS (Apr 27, 2007)

Stugots said:


> Terry,
> 
> You know me...I'm always open to suggestions and options. No need for you to pay for the dyno...I'd be happy to throw up the car and the tunes for comparison. I still love the JBD, fwiw, and I still consider myself a very happy owner.
> 
> When it comes to the Meth kit, make sure to remember me when it comes time to test it. I have no problems driving up there and getting things set up.


Sounds good! FWIW I'm not trying to come down negative on the DTUK I'm sure it's great too. Just want to make sure people who have not tried either are evaluating them on their merits as much as possible. I'll let you know when the meth kit is ready. To be candid it's been bumped a few times on the priority list for various projects like the N55 OCC, N55 intake, N20 tuning, C250 intake, etc, but it will get done sooner or later.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Terry @ BMS said:


> Sounds good! FWIW I'm not trying to come down negative on the DTUK I'm sure it's great too. Just want to make sure people who have not tried either are evaluating them on their merits as much as possible. I'll let you know when the meth kit is ready. To be candid it's been bumped a few times on the priority list for various projects like the N55 OCC, N55 intake, N20 tuning, C250 intake, etc, but it will get done sooner or later.


No worries...we're a patient bunch. And I've never spoken ill about the JBD. As I said above, I still find it an amazing solution to getting more juice out of our diesels, and I still recommend it frequently.


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## NotNormal (May 3, 2012)

Flyingman said:


> Here is their Dyno Graph on a 335D. I assume this may be a EU Spec, not US Spec.
> 
> Still reseraching asking questions. Comments?
> 
> View attachment 321515


Hey, new to this site, but hopefully I can help you out here

Thats my dyno graph, and yes, my cars a UK spec car
Running map 3 at 10%



Stugots said:


> I'd be interested to know which map that's on, actually. The reason I ask is because I've had the car dynoed (HP only) with the DTUK tune, and I peaked at just over 365HP.


Map 3 @ 10%



Snipe656 said:


> So which setting seems to not pull any codes or limp mode? I assume it is kind of like the JDB where if you dot get too greedy with the settings then fear of codes/limp should be nonexistent.


As above, I run my car on map 3 @ 10%, code free....tried map 1 at 10% and it was fine, map 1 at 20% was ok .... Only had one reduced power mode, 4 people n the car, hot day, very very heavy loading in 5th gear from low revs

I've nt tried the JBD unit, but I have run the DTUK single system back to back wit the CRD-T system, but very capable and reward you with impressive power gains.
I kept the CRD-T system, it felt alittle sharper, and alittle crisper .... A more remapped feel to the drive of the car.

I'd be be interested in comparing the CRD-T unit I have against the JBD system....as I've done 60,000 + miles in this car on the CRD-T system, and feel I know it quite well. A comparison would be interesting

If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask, if I can answer, I will....

Regards

Tom


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

@NotNormal WTF a whole lot of miles of fun traveling wow. I have put 13k in less than year here in Puerto Rico thats 100 miles x 35 miles LOL. Sorry I love driving my DIESEL!!! Anyway finally people are coming to grasp at the potential our BEASTS have and are being unleashed. I am happy the RENNtech flash I have. I almost bought Terry's product which BTW my mechanic here in Puerto Rico sells alot. I support RENNtech's product as well as Terry's and anyone who tries to make our babies drive how they were intended to be driven.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

NotNormal said:


> Hey, new to this site, but hopefully I can help you out here
> 
> Thats my dyno graph, and yes, my cars a UK spec car
> Running map 3 at 10%
> ...


Hey Tom,

Glad to see you found the "other" site!

On your dyno, did you get a bseline? Peak hp # mean little since every dyno spits out different peak hp numbers where some read higher and some read lower. I am interested in are gains from the baseline on the same dyno.

Guys - Tom is the guy that ordered the EGR by-pass for his d. Looking forward to seeing how that goes.


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## NotNormal (May 3, 2012)

Hey, sadly no, I've not got the baseline HP figure to hand....next time I go past the dyno place I'll pop in and find out the uncorrected figure 

Egr pipe....arrived today but I wasn't around when the postman came, collecting it for the sorting office tomorrow 
If I get chance I'll set too fitting it .....


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Kepp us informed amigo


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## NotNormal (May 3, 2012)

Sorry folks, it's been a while ..... I would have liked this fitted and sorted by ow but the pat week I have been quite ill.
Starting to feel better now, si I'll set to fitting it this week 

Tom


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## NotNormal (May 3, 2012)

Well....fitted my EGR blank, effortless and simple, as expected.
Done 60 miles or so, stretched my cars legs alittle .... First impressions, marginally quicker spool, seems alittle stronger midrange and has a crisper more constant feel to the power delivery top end too 

The shock so far, no engine management light. Although, I'm sure that'll pop up in due course haha

Booked in for a remap on Thursday, so I'll see what that yields !

So far so good....


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## bigjack (May 7, 2012)

Thanks, keep us posted...! Hope you are feeling better.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey Tom, 

Thanks for the follow up! Did you install or did a shop do that? Can you walk us through the install process? 

Also can you post up the link for the part that you purchased?


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## NotNormal (May 3, 2012)

bigjack said:


> Thanks, keep us posted...! Hope you are feeling better.


Thankyou, yes, feeling allot better

Done about 100 miles now, mixed driving, from town stop start to high speed hard acceleration too.
No lights as yet.



cssnms said:


> Hey Tom,
> 
> Thanks for the follow up! Did you install or did a shop do that? Can you walk us through the install process?
> 
> Also can you post up the link for the part that you purchased?


Hi, yes, sure, I fitted it myself.
Not at all difficult ... One bolt was alittle awkward/fiddly button stress.

*remove engine cover

*removed the central air duct above radatior

*release boost hose from throttle body

*disconnect electrical connector for throttle body

*remove three torques screws (t30)
Throttle body comes off at this point

*undo the jubilee clip on the left of the egr valve

*remove vacuume pipe on right of egr

*undo four 5mm allenkey bolts holding egr on

At this point you have an open inlet manifold and are ready to fit the egr removal pipe

Clean the faces of any oil residue

Refit the egr blank in the reverse process of the above

Please note, you will loose one of the mounting points for the engine cover, but fear not, it doesn't effect it in any way. There are enough bolts on the engine cover to keep it secure and you'll not have any rattles.

Here is where I got my kit from :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E60-E...arParts_SM&hash=item257057a096#ht_2013wt_1501

It comes complete with bolts ect... But tbh, I felt more comfortable reusing the standard BMW bolts

Any questions, please feel free to ask.....if I can help, I will .....


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Tom -

Many thanks. Needless to say this is promising! Unfortunately we don't have a tuner here stateside that can code for this (yet). Maybe Evolve has something? But perhaps based on your experience so far it is not needed. Iwould be interested in seeing if your light ever does come on. I realize you are taking the car in to have it tuned for this but man wish I could convince you to drive it another 500 miles or so to see if that damn ses light ever comes on

Is the part sold by the same guy I spoke to a while back and is this part different then the one I was looking at?

Chris


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## NotNormal (May 3, 2012)

Chris, yes, same bloke, but it's listed for a different vehicle
His English is appalling but his product is good. 

The item I linked you to is the one for the 335d 

I'll have covered more than 500 miles before I t ale my car in. At the moment, if all stays the same, I'll not bother with the remap at this rate. We shall see ......


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Here's some info from BMW on the EGR in the U.S. E90:


> Compared to the European version, the high pressure EGR is equipped with the following special features:
> ***8226; Electric EGR valve with positional feedback
> ***8226; Temperature sensor before high pressure EGR valve
> ***8226; EGR cooler with bypass.
> ...


Those first 3 items (electric valve, sensor, cooler) make me believe that our EGR is significantly different from the Euro EGR, so we need to tread carefully. I have an image of our EGR part (including the cooler), but I haven't been able to figure out how to get it posted yet.


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## NotNormal (May 3, 2012)

62, post that image.....upload it to a photobucket account or similar

I'll have a look and compare with my euro version


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