# Iconic and class-leading cars



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

What would y'all say are the iconic or class-leading cars? Like, the ones the magazines go crazy about when they're redesigned, the ones enthusiasts drool about, the ones the manufacturers really don't want to screw up because their bottom lines depend on them, the ones the manufacturers would never consider junking. In other words, the yardsticks of their respective classes. Here're my impressions:

Large luxury:
S-class LWB
To some degree, DeVille/DTS (only in America)

Midsize lux:
5 (sporty oriented) or E (lux oriented)

Compact lux:
3-series (sedan > coupe)

Lux SUV:
Range Rover

Roadster:
Miata (compact)
SL (lux)

Sports car:
911 Carrera (not sure how coupe compares to cabriolet)
Corvette
M3 (coupe > cab or sedan)
Mustang (economy)
Skyline / Skyline GT-R (not in the US)

Truck:
F-150

Small hatch:
GTI / Golf/Rabbit (esp. worldwide)

Economy midsize:
Camry and Accord

Economy compact:
Civic (in the US at least, even though the Corolla sells more)

Rally car:
Tie between STi and Lancer Evo


----------



## Jspeed (Dec 23, 2001)

I think that's pretty much it. Caravan used to be _the_ minivan for some time, but that was overtaken by the Odyssey IMO.


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Jaguar E-Type. Certainly iconic even though Jaguar stopped making anything remotely like it ages ago.

Anything from Ferrari

VW Bug. Still with us. Ditto for the Mini.

Lotus deserves special mention. Lotus has always made interesting cars. Many of them were priced within reach. The Super 7 is certainly iconic. The Europa was another. The first generation Miata was copied from the Elan. James Bond drove an Esprit. Today's Elise is another winner.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Jspeed said:


> I think that's pretty much it. Caravan used to be _the_ minivan for some time, but that was overtaken by the Odyssey IMO.


I agree re: the Odyssey. So it was the Caravan (Grand Caravan?) that was the standard, not the Town & Country?


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> Jaguar E-Type. Certainly iconic even though Jaguar stopped making anything remotely like it ages ago.
> 
> Anything from Ferrari
> 
> ...


Jag E-type, I agree, but I figured anything defunct shouldn't count.

Lotus and Mini, I figured that defunct or recently reincarnated shouldn't count either. VW Bug I would agree with.

So y'all agree with every item I had on my initial list? I thought there'd be some dissension.


----------



## Gran Turismo (Aug 7, 2006)

swchang said:


> So y'all agree with every item I had on my initial list?


Not quite, personally I'm missing 
- something from UK in the Large Luxury section
- something from Italy in the Sports Car section


----------



## LoveTAH (Dec 25, 2005)

swchang said:


> Economy compact:
> Civic (in the US at least, even though the Corolla sells more)


Though it'll never match sales numbers here of the civorolla, I think the Mazda3 has single-handedly redefined the economy car class. It's won every comparison Ive seen, except one, where it would have won had it had 'more power' and it's better-equipped and more fun-to-drive than anything starting less than $17k has a right to be.

It's a hit for Mazda. I just hope they make the next gen even better.


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

swchang said:


> Lotus and Mini, I figured that defunct or recently reincarnated shouldn't count either. VW Bug I would agree with.


The 'old' Mini was still in production when Brisish Aerospace sold Rover Group to BMW. Production of the old car continued while Rover and BMW worked on the replacement. The last old Mini rolled off the line in 2000. The new MINI came out in 2001.

I haven't followd Lotus as closely. I know that Proton recently purchased the company. Did Lotus ever actually close their doors?

Even if Lotus was dead they would still be on my list.
Number 6 drove a Lotus 7 (or was that a Super 7??)
Emma Peal drove an Elan Roadster.
James Bond drove an Esprit.

I'm not sure about Aston Martin. I'd call the DB 5 iconic.

If it were my list/rules I'd include MG even though they are currently not building cars. Blame that on Rover or BMW. The MG TC and MGB certainly are icons. The T and TF are cars that would have come to the US if BMW hadn't killed them in order to protect the Z3.

A Chineese company purchased MG and recently announced it is putting the MG TF back into production. The Chineese are building a new plant in Oklahoma that will build an version of the TF for the American market.

Reference:

http://www.okcchamber.com/page.asp?atomid=1614

The London Taxi is an icon in a class by itself. They have been manufactured at the same plant in Coventry since the 1950's

But the biggest omission from your list is Rolls Royce.


----------



## Jspeed (Dec 23, 2001)

swchang said:


> I agree re: the Odyssey. So it was the Caravan (Grand Caravan?) that was the standard, not the Town & Country?


Doesn't really matter which variation of the three (Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler) you pick.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I wasn't really sure about including makes, like Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, etc. because I'm not sure if there's a particular model that's iconic. The brand itself is, sure, no one can deny that.

Should the M5 be on the list? I've never considered it to be held in as much esteem among BMW honchos and aficionados, but I suppose it has been through 4 gens, while the M3 has only been through 3...

The questions I had from my original post:

3-series: sedan or coupe? I think sedan, but an article I read said coupe :dunno: 

911: coupe or cabriolet? RWD > AWD for sure, but cabs sell more than coupes (or at least in the US), even though I'd think the coupe is probably more hallowed

M3: I'd say coupe over anything else


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

swchang said:


> Should the M5 be on the list?


Depends who you talk too. BMWCCA members or people on this board might say yes. Ask someone from the general public and the best you could hope for is "Nice rims on that Beemer." The M5 carries a low profile. You won't find V10 badges plastered all over one. Some are very special cars. In my opinion the M5 is more of a cult car then an icon.

FWIW if I had to have only 1 car and it could be any car at all, I'd pick a 100% restored e34 M5 Touring.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I'm thinking Jeep deserves mention as well, like their Wrangler and Cherokee/Grand Cherokee lines. Aren't they the ones that kinda kicked off the whole SUV craze? Jeep was like Xerox/Kleenex/Google for some time.

Oh, and the Jag XJ is still held in (somewhat) high esteem among those not as enamored with German cars.


----------



## borntoridefree (Mar 20, 2007)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> Depends who you talk too. BMWCCA members or people on this board might say yes. Ask someone from the general public and the best you could hope for is "Nice rims on that Beemer." The M5 carries a low profile. You won't find V10 badges plastered all over one. Some are very special cars. In my opinion the M5 is more of a cult car then an icon.
> 
> FWIW if I had to have only 1 car and it could be any car at all, I'd pick a 100% restored e34 M5 Touring.


:thumbup: 
I'm lucky in that I don't have far to travel to work. I'm also lucky that I have great big fluffy dog. But the luckiest thing that happened to me recently was combining all this with seeing and buying a fab diamond black M5t.

Handles, goes like a train, sounds great (who needs a sterio), rock solid residual values. Dog loves it, pitty the Mrs doesn't like being in the passanger seat on the wrong side of the road but she'll get over it.


----------



## BmW745On19's (Aug 12, 2005)

Ford trucks are all right, I think the new Sierra/Silverados have overtaken them in terms of the "yardstick" quality.


----------



## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

The Miata may be currently iconic but don't forget it is fundamentally a modern reincarnation of old English roadsters. Truly iconic of that mold would be more like the Triumph TR6, Jensen Healey, or Sunbeam Alpine.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Penforhire said:


> The Miata may be currently iconic but don't forget it is fundamentally a modern reincarnation of old English roadsters. Truly iconic of that mold would be more like the Triumph TR6, Jensen Healey, or Sunbeam Alpine.


Right, but unfortunately they do not exist anymore. Well, maybe they exist, but, well, you know what I mean.


----------



## Frank Rizzo (Aug 2, 2003)

Penforhire said:


> The Miata may be currently iconic but don't forget it is fundamentally a modern reincarnation of old English roadsters. Truly iconic of that mold would be more like the Triumph TR6, Jensen Healey, or Sunbeam Alpine.


I think the Datsun Z really gave that class of car the foothold in the USA.


----------



## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

The 240Z was an imitation of the Jaguar XKE in its form. Besides it was not a roadster (convertible) and the Datsun 1600 was popular in America before the 240Z (which cost too much when new).


----------



## Frank Rizzo (Aug 2, 2003)

yeah, but from a sales standpoint it was a "success" whereas the others were not really.


----------



## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

*Ferrari 355. The best car ever made.*

It says so on TV.


----------



## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

Class-leading and iconic are two different things. Class-leading is cars made today that dominate their class, whether in raw sales or by being the car everyone imitates or wants. Iconic cars are admired by name by non-car people.

Iconic cars (of just the last 25 years, in the minds of Americans (sorry, no 2CV), cars only (no brands), by no means complete and in no particular order):
Chevy Corvette - C4, C5, C6, doesn't matter, a Vette is a Vette in the minds of its fans.
Porsche 911 Turbos - brought the word "turbo" into the vocabulary (inspite of turbo'd Corvairs, etc in the past)
Ferrari F40, Testarosa, 308/328, 360. Other models seem less timeless. F50 and Enzo are too ugly for long term staying power.
Any Lamborghini with scissor doors - 200mph while standing still. 
Land Rover Defender - its the vehicle we grew up seeing on nature TV shows.
pre-BMW Rolls Royce - nothing said money like a Rolls.
Mazda Miata - the only Japanese car that really stands out. All other cars are either bland or have cult-only followings (like Integra, CRX, 240SX, Z cars, etc).
late 80's/early 90's Ford Mustang and Camaro - cheap thrills and dreams of high schoolers when they were new.
Jeep Grand Cherokee - along with the first generation Ford Explorer made SUVs a trendy thing to drive.
Dodge Omni GLH-S - just seeing if you're still paying attention. 

sorry, no BMWs or MB - individual models don't really standout to the general public.


----------



## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

I'm not sure on what you base that list.

If there's any Jeep that's Iconic (in my opinion), it's the CJ models (more recently "Wrangler") based on the Willy's Jeep. When you say Jeep, that's what comes to mind for me. The Grand Cherokee may have been a front-runner in the SUV business, but I think Toyota 4-runner had more of an effect.

You left out 2 classic Ferrari's: The Dino, and the Daytona Spider. Also, the 288 GTO is one of my favorites.

What about Ford Model T? It's the grand-daddy of the manufactured auto.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I still think the Range Rover, S-class, and 3-series deserve special mention.

Perhaps I should have said "iconic, class-leading, and/or manufacturer-defining."


----------



## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

No other Japanese iconic cars beyond the Miata? Maybe among this crowd.

But there could be arguments made for the original RX7 (rotary power plus handling), Supra TT (modified to the moon), and GT-R (race winning, though not sold in America). How about the original AE86 (Corolla), a fine old RWD machine still popular for drifting? Or 2000GT (way ahead of the Miata)? Or NSX (first reliable supercar)? The NOPI crowd would probably make the Civic an icon for its popularity as a base for modifications.


----------



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

cwsqbm said:


> Class-leading and iconic are two different things. Class-leading is cars made today that dominate their class, whether in raw sales or by being the car everyone imitates or wants. Iconic cars are admired by name by non-car people.
> 
> Iconic cars (of just the last 25 years, in the minds of Americans (sorry, no 2CV), cars only (no brands), by no means complete and in no particular order):
> Chevy Corvette - C4, C5, C6, doesn't matter, a Vette is a Vette in the minds of its fans.
> ...


This pretty sums up my thoughts as well.

However, the big MB models were kinda iconic, since it was the choice of the state presidents, oligarchs, wealthy sheiks in many european and far east countries for many years (although they could afford a Bentley or a RR anytime) Most people associated the big S-Class with 'wealth'. Wealthy individualists usually opted for a Jag, for them MB was too mainstream.


----------



## jcg (Feb 25, 2007)

swchang said:


> I wasn't really sure about including makes, like Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, etc. because I'm not sure if there's a particular model that's iconic. The brand itself is, sure, no one can deny that.


I think you could count the Ferrari F40 as a iconic car. I took of my playboy poster to put up a poster of it. You dream about a f40, not about a 612 Scaglietti. I walked pas a Scaglietti without me noticing it (trouble of walking in Monaco, too many beatyfull cars) but F40 will make people turn their heads.

edit: didn't read all the posts, so it's been said before.



Penforhire said:


> No other Japanese iconic cars beyond the Miata? Maybe among this crowd.
> 
> But there could be arguments made for the original RX7 (rotary power plus handling), Supra TT (modified to the moon), and GT-R (race winning, though not sold in America). How about the original AE86 (Corolla), a fine old RWD machine still popular for drifting? Or 2000GT (way ahead of the Miata)? Or NSX (first reliable supercar)? The NOPI crowd would probably make the Civic an icon for its popularity as a base for modifications.


It bedepends who you ask. A car fanatic will say different car that a other person. The other person will say ferraris, lamborghini and such. Car fanatics will say miata, ford escort cosworth and M3.


----------



## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

Not that I could afford either but I'd rather have a 1962 Ferrari GTO over that F40. But no argument that the F40 is special, last of the no-nanny-control Ferraris.


----------



## BMWpurist (Jan 28, 2006)

The current Audi A8,it might not be iconic now but definitely class leading IMO.


----------



## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

mark_m5 said:


> I'm not sure on what you base that list.
> 
> If there's any Jeep that's Iconic (in my opinion), it's the CJ models (more recently "Wrangler") based on the Willy's Jeep. When you say Jeep, that's what comes to mind for me. The Grand Cherokee may have been a front-runner in the SUV business, but I think Toyota 4-runner had more of an effect.
> 
> ...


Obviously my list is my opinion, but let me explain my choices:
Iconic as in the vehicle that everyone wanted or drove a segment. The Jeep Grand Cherokee was what pushed the modern SUV revolution into high gear; I wasn't going off raw sales.

I left out the classic Ferraris because I said I was only looking on cars of the last 25 years. I feel this is fair because the average person nowadays doesn't remember older cars (and my list would be WAY too long). Same answer for the Model T.



Penforhire said:


> No other Japanese iconic cars beyond the Miata? Maybe among this crowd.
> 
> But there could be arguments made for the original RX7 (rotary power plus handling), Supra TT (modified to the moon), and GT-R (race winning, though not sold in America). How about the original AE86 (Corolla), a fine old RWD machine still popular for drifting? Or 2000GT (way ahead of the Miata)? Or NSX (first reliable supercar)? The NOPI crowd would probably make the Civic an icon for its popularity as a base for modifications.


Take a random person off street, and ask them to I identify a car. Other than the Miata, the rest fade in the background for various reasons. This is not a knock on how good the cars are, just on how the average joe or jane perceives them. If you look, I also said the average person wouldn't identify a BMW model, other than it being a BMW. Maybe I should have included an S-class MB on my list, but they are just "big Mercedes" to the average person, so I left them off too.


----------



## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

By that logic the Aztek is iconic (instantly recognizable)! I'll have to grant you it is an icon of ugliness...


----------



## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

Penforhire said:


> By that logic the Aztek is iconic (instantly recognizable)! I'll have to grant you it is an icon of ugliness...


I also said they have to be admired/desired by non-car people. That removes the Aztek from the list. Still, most people now would just call an Aztek "that ugly thing over there."


----------



## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

cwsqbm said:


> Obviously my list is my opinion, but let me explain my choices:
> Iconic as in the vehicle that everyone wanted or drove a segment. The Jeep Grand Cherokee was what pushed the modern SUV revolution into high gear; I wasn't going off raw sales.
> 
> I left out the classic Ferraris because I said I was only looking on cars of the last 25 years. I feel this is fair because the average person nowadays doesn't remember older cars (and my list would be WAY too long). Same answer for the Model T.


Makes sense.


----------



## LoveTAH (Dec 25, 2005)

BMWpurist said:


> The current Audi A8,it might not be iconic now but definitely class leading IMO.


Good choice. The 8's not love-it/hate-it like the 7, arrogantly bloated and understyled like the S, boring/bland/derivative/toyota-ish like the LS.

It's a perfect balance of sport/luxury/elegance/comfort.


----------

