# So I got a set of A3S04s for Mother’s Day...



## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

&#8230;well, actually for the Mother's Day OVR/WOR Challenge in Dayton this weekend.

I intend to use the Hoosiers for the CENDIV events and continue to use my Kumhos for the local events. I ordered the Hoosiers yesterday (5/6) afternoon from [email protected]ck over the phone and I received them this afternoon (5/7)!!! Holy crap Gary, that's what I call service (I even had them heat cycled)!!

I checked the online entry list for the WOR/OVR Challenge this weekend and noticed M. Pettus was registered to compete in my class. After a little research, I noticed that not only did he win the WOR (not my region) Points Event #1, but he was FTD!! A little more research and I find out he does really well on a divisional level. At first I was a little disappointed seeing my winning streak in 2004 coming to an abrupt halt. However, the more I thought about it, this will give me a good feel of where I stand on a divisional level (I guess I'm just not ready for the heart brake so quickly  ).

My first CENDIV event is not until May 22-23 in Rantoul, IL, however since I got my Hoosiers sooner then expected, I think I'll mount those babies up for this weekend to see how well I do against Pettus. At least I won't be able to blame it on my tires. 

I spoke with Bob Tunnell from BimmerHaus yesterday about what tire pressures he thinks I should run on the A3S04s. He said for my car, tire size, and minimum amount of camber that I can run up front, he suggested I try 55 PSI (cold) up front to start out with. So I'll probably start with 55 front and 50 in the rear and check the shoe polish after each run.

Now, my question for you guys... How far should I be letting the front tire roll over onto the sidewall? Check out this first picture&#8230;should the tire roll clear over to that line just above the word "Traction"? Or is that too far? I was thinking maybe 1/8" to 1/4" above that line. :dunno:

Also, are the A3S04s fast right out of the box or do I need to scuff them up a bit before my first run?


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

Do they recommend heat cycling those tires? If you didn't have Tire Rack do it, you could drive them around on the street some.

Might be different for AuoXers, but on the Yokohamas, there are locaters (Michelins have the little Michelin man) for the wear bar indicators around the outer edge. That is what we try to roll the tires over to. On your picture, that would probably be where that little stubble thing is above the line or even a little higher.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Unless you want to throw away your first run, at least do a couple of hard corners on the street. That mold-release compound will make your first corners adventureous. 

Man, those new Hoosiers look like F1 tires!


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

racerdave said:


> Man, those new Hoosiers look like F1 tires!


Yeah, how the heck did they get DOT approval on that tread pattern?


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

they need a good scrub before they work well, so probably the next autox.

Also, IMO 50 psig rear pressure will be way too high and result in wheelspin, I'm usually around 30 psig rear, sometimes less even

still recommend 225's on the front, due out later this month


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

*Autoxing the ZHP on Hoosiers Part I*

Well, I didn't want to leave you guys hanging so I thought I would do a little (actually it got longer then I thought it would) write up of my impressions of these new Hoosier A3S04s and also give you the blow by blow of how the event went yesterday (I was inspired by Clyde's RX-8 Part II write up&#8230; I love reading those by the way Clyde!! ... you too Nick, I just read it).

*Scuffing up the new Hoosiers:*

I got up early Saturday morning, gave the 330i a nice bath (which she badly needed) and then took my race wheels (M72s) with the Kumho mounted on them over to Discount Tire and had them mount my Hoosiers on the wheels. Later that afternoon, I went ahead and mounted the wheels/tires on the car to scuff them up a bit before the event the following day. I pumped up the front tires to 55 PSI (per Bob Tunnell recommendation) and the rears to 50 PSI (this was pretty much a guess on my part, I have just been use to running 5 lbs less in the rears with my Kumhos).

I took the car out to an empty parking lot and made a few figure eights. I didn't push the car too hard because I didn't want to scrub too much rubber off. I then wanted to see how they would feel from a launch and also going through a slalom. There was a brand new 5 lane road that was built not far from my home that doesn't get a lot of traffic (if any) and is also plenty wide, so I thought I would drive out there to do a slalom test. On the way there, I thought I would practice a few launches and see how these tires launch compared to my Kumhos (which if you read my other thread, I'm not too happy about how the Kumho Ecsta V700s launch off the line).

My first launch was at 3500 RPM. There was absolutely no tire spin off the line. Wow, I was impressed&#8230; my Kumhos would have just sat there and spun and my street tires would have spun for at least a couple feet. So that felt pretty good. So I decided to do my next launch at something a little crazy, 5000 RPM. Again, no joke, zero tire spin off the line. At this point I am floored!! The car just squats and goes!! My next launch is at 5500 RPM, this time I got tire spin, and once they started spinning, they spun a lot&#8230; for about 10 to 15 feet. I was tickled pink to find out that I can now actually launch the car at a descent RPM with these tires!!

I finally get to the location and perform a few slalom tests (basically, just going back and forth between imaginary cones). I was really impressed with how the tires stuck, but again didn't want to push the tires too hard so I really couldn't get a good comparison between my Hoosiers and Kumhos at this point.

*The OVR/WOR Challenge Autocross Event:*

I pull into grid ready to run Heat #1, and who grids directly behind me? Yep, you guessed it&#8230; Pettus. We had a total of four guys running B Stock that day (a lot smaller then what I like to have), Pettus in his light blue S2000, a guy in a red MR2, a novice in a bright blue 350Z, and myself in the black 330i ZHP.

I had read Mark's post (in this thread) about rear tire pressure earlier that morning, so I wanted to adjust my rear tire pressure before my first run. Mark, I appreciate the advise, and no offense, but dropping the rears by 20 lbs right off the bat scared me to death. I have read so many posts about guys cording their brand new A3S04s just because they didn't run enough pressure, that I was a little scared to drop the rears by the much. So before my first run, I left the fronts at 55 PSI and dropped the rears from 50 PSI to 45 PSI. I then put a dab of white shoe polish on the side walls to check the rollovers after each run. I had planned to drop the rear pressures slowly during the day just to make sure I don't roll them over too much. Mark, I'm sure I'll eventually be down to 30 PSI in the rears, I just want to get there slowly. 

I lined up for my first run and noticed that Pettus was going to be running directly after me. So my thought was, after I go through the finish line, I should be able to hear his time announced over the loud speaker and get to see how close our times are. I noticed that Pettus was running brand new Hoosier A3S03s, 225s in the front and 245s in the rear (which is the most common setup for the S2000s, from what I hear).

I always use my first run, as my smooth, clean, consistent and slow run mainly because my tires are cold and I'm basically throwing away my first run to heat up the tires and to work on car position at a slower pace. I crossed the finish line of my first run with a 48.0 (clean). I get back to the grid and hear Pettus finish with a 48.9 (clean). Hmmm, I guess my first run wasn't as slow as I thought, but then again I knew that both he and I were going to improve on these times a lot and we'd be getting a lot closer in times.

During my first run on the Hoosiers, I noticed that the Hoosiers weren't nearly as sloppy cold as what my Kumhos usually are. I tend to have to be very carefully on my first run with the Kumhos because they squirm and slide all over the place. I didn't really notice that as much with the Hoosiers, in fact the more I thought about it, the Hoosiers seemed to stick better cold then the Kumhos do when they're hot!! After my first run I knew I would be shaving at least another second off my time because I was no where near the limits of the tires on my first run and couldn't wait to see what these things could do when they got warmed up.

On my second run I pushed the car (and the tires) a lot harder. I was hitting all my marks perfectly, however I found that I was still nowhere near the limits of these tires!! I found myself lifting off the gas in areas that I normally would be with the Kumhos underneath of me, but as soon as I did, I'd put my foot back into the gas because I would notice that I still had grip left. I found myself doing this a lot in slalom and the high speed corners. I crossed the finish line on my second run with a 47.5 (clean). I then hear Pettus finish with a 47.9 (+ 1 cone). Even though he hit a cone, his time told me that he was reeling me in and that I better keep dropping my times or he'd catch (and pass) me.

Before my third run, I'm running the course through my head trying to figure out where I can pick up some time. This was a pretty high speed course, a couple tight slow sections, but for the most part some nice high speed corners (i.e. long straight away into 45 to 60 degree corner into another straight away). There were three corners like this. On my previous run I would lift slightly for these corners, but realized that I was not near the limits of the tires going through these corners. So I made up my mind that I would not lift for these corners. So on my third run, I did just that. The first two high speed corners were about 55 to 60 degree corners, the tires stuck like glue and I hit those corners perfectly. The third corner was more of a 45 to 50 degree corner, as I went through there at WOT, the back end started to come around on me a little, I kept my foot in the throttle, counter steered slightly and kept it going in a straight line. I went through the finish line with a 46.9, but the announcer said, "plus one cone". What?! I don't remember hitting a cone, I didn't feel it or hear it. I began running that previous run back through my mind trying to figure out where I hit it, I couldn't recall. I thought to myself, I must have barely brushed one and scooted it outside of the box. Darn!! I was a little frustrated with myself, that was a GREAT run, and I hit a freakn' cone!! I then hear Pettus finish with a 47.1 (clean). CRAP!!! He's got me, he just took the lead. It will all come down to the next and final run (only 4 runs total).

Well, before my last run, some guy in a Neon goes through the finish line sideways and takes out the timing box. They had a spare timing box, but the event was delayed for a while, while the new one was being setup. That cone that they said I hit was still running through my mind. I wanted to find out where it was at so I'd be a little more aware of it on my last run. I checked with a few of my friends and asked if they saw me hit a cone on my last run, and they all said no, in fact they said they were surprised when the announcer called "plus one". Since the event was delayed while the new timing boxes were being set up, I decided to walk out to each of the corner stations and find out for myself which corner this had happened in. I checked the cone audit forms and none of the stations had me marked as hitting a cone on my third run!! Wohooo, the announcer had made a mistake and my third run was indeed clean, which put me back into first with a 46.9 (clean).

They finally got the timing boxes set back up and working and it was now time for our forth and final run. Now, with Pettus being only 2/10ths off my time, I knew I had to make a prefect, clean run or he'd certainly beat me. I began to think of where I could pick up some more time on the course and the slalom section immediately came to my mind. I was already going through the slalom a lot faster then what I would be with my Kumhos, however I still wasn't exceeding the limits of the tires through there, and with this being my first time on Hoosiers I wasn't sure how much more I could push it through there. I thought back to my previous run and realized I was WOT going into the slalom, would lift slightly through it and then would be full throttle again coming out. I thought to myself, that I could probably keep my foot to the floor, not lift for the entire section, but I was not confident that I wouldn't exceed the limits of the tires. But, I thought I would do it anyway because I knew Pettus would be pushing hard on his last run since he's got nothing to lose.

The slalom section leads right up to the finish line. My final run was near perfect, I hit all the high speed corners with out lifting, took the slow sections slow and got good drives coming out of the corners, I felt really good heading in to the slalom. I put my foot to the floor, and I'm going in and out of cones so fast that it was insane. I have just two more cones to go, I feel the back end start coming around slightly, but I don't lift, I just leave my foot planted. I counter steer slightly, but that throughs me off my line slightly and I smack the last cone in the slalom with my rear tire. I cross the finish line with a 46.7 (plus 1 cone). CRAP!!! There's no question about it, I knew I hit that cone. It was all up to Pettus at this point, all he has to do is finish with clean 46.9 or better and he takes the win. I hear his time come in with a 47.XX, (+1 cone). It sounded like we were both pushing a little too hard on that last run!!

I was really happy to take home the first place trophy, especially after all that, but to be honest I would have been ok taking second, because I had so much fun with our times being so close. I guess it just makes it more exciting and makes for better racing.

To be honest, I give credit to my new Hoosiers for that win. I can guarantee you that if I were running my Kumhos yesterday, that win just plain would not have happened. On that 47 second course, I feel confident in saying that those Hoosiers were easily a second faster (if not more) then my Kumhos. I think I'll only get faster the more I get use to these Hoosiers. I know I said that I wanted to run my Kumhos locally and use the Hoosiers for the CENDIVs, but to be honest, those Hoosiers were so much fun to drive on that I don't want to go back to those Kumhos&#8230; ever!! However, I think my pocket book may force me too.

I'm a Hoosier convert and proud of it!! :thumbup:


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

the cording issue is in the front, not the rear

the combination of steering angle and body roll cause much higher scrub on the outside edge of the front tires, the outside corner on the front tires carries a substantially larger load than on the rear tires

rear tire corner rollover has never been an issue in my autox experience

peace

ps: I have an open seat in the Z4 if you want to come try it out at the Peru National Tour event, looks like I won't make the Toledo events


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> ps: I have an open seat in the Z4 if you want to come try it out at the Peru National Tour event, looks like I won't make the Toledo events


:wow: Are you serious?!?!

If you're asking if I'd like to co-drive your car for the Peru National Tour event, then yes I'd love too!!! I was thinking about running at least one National Tour event this year and I figured I'd probably run Peru.

I was talking with Pettus yesterday and he said that if I wanted to go to Topeka this year that it would be good for me to run at least one National Tour event. Something about a discount on the entry fee or something... is that true?

Let's talk about Peru a little more offline... you've got me excited!! :thumbup:

Thank you!!


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Andy... :thumbup:

Looks like the ZHP might be a bit better against S2k than you thought? 

Keep it up!


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

Andy said:


> :wow: Are you serious?!?!
> 
> If you're asking if I'd like to co-drive your car for the Peru National Tour event, then yes I'd love too!!! I was thinking about running at least one National Tour event this year and I figured I'd probably run Peru.


Congrats, Andy, looks like you're kicking butt! I think I'm the only guy in my class still on Kumhos. :rofl: I'm envious of all you Hoosier guys, from what I've seen locally once you figure out the pressures they stick like glue.

I'm keeping my schedule open for Topeka, on the off chance that I find some local person who wants a tire warmer. If I don't get my butt kicked too badly at the DC tour that is. Somehow I can't convince the g/f that Topeka is a reasonable vacation spot though... 

Have fun...

John


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

racerdave said:


> Andy... :thumbup:
> 
> Looks like the ZHP might be a bit better against S2k than you thought?
> 
> Keep it up!


Thanks Dave!! I really think it's the low end torque of the ZHP that really helps. Pettus told me there were three corners yesterday where he had to down shift into 1st to get any pull out of those corners. I was leaving it in 2nd, getting great drives out of the tight stuff. The S2000s are really lacking in low end torque, however makeup for it in weight and size.

IMO, the S2000s will still have the advantage, but I think the ZHPs will be a little better in BS then people (including myself) originally thought.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

SoloII///M said:


> Somehow I can't convince the g/f that Topeka is a reasonable vacation spot though...


Thanks John!!

That's funny I was just thinking the same thing this weekend... "How can I convince my wife to spend a week in Topeka, it was hard enough to get her to spend a day in Dayton". :rofl:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SoloII///M said:


> I think I'm the only guy in my class still on Kumhos. :rofl: I'm envious of all you Hoosier guys, from what I've seen locally once you figure out the pressures they stick like glue.


On Saturday, I think DJ told me that he's going back to Kumhos when his A3S03s are shot. :dunno:



> I'm keeping my schedule open for Topeka, on the off chance that I find some local person who wants a tire warmer.


I'm wondering if my Hoosiers will make it until September and still have enough left to survive the concrete.


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

Andy said:


> Thanks Dave!! I really think it's the low end torque of the ZHP that really helps. Pettus told me there were three corners yesterday where he had to down shift into 1st to get any pull out of those corners. I was leaving it in 2nd, getting great drives out of the tight stuff. The S2000s are really lacking in low end torque, however makeup for it in weight and size.
> 
> IMO, the S2000s will still have the advantage, but I think the ZHPs will be a little better in BS then people (including myself) originally thought.


Well, locally a lot can happen. Ask me how I know. 

Nationally the courses tend to be more open so that low speed corner situation probably won't be an issue, hence the S2000s' domination.

john V


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Andy said:


> :wow: Are you serious?!?!


yes, and if you like it I need a codriver for Nationals too

"Nationally" has more to do with drivers than anything else


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

The love in this thread is bringing tears to my eyes. 

:thumbup:


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> yes, and if you like it I need a codriver for Nationals too
> 
> "Nationally" has more to do with drivers than anything else


Mark, I just sent you a PM about co-driving. :thumbup:



·clyde· said:


> The love in this thread is bringing tears to my eyes.
> 
> :thumbup:


Autocross... it brings us all closer!!  :thumbup:

:grouphug:


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> yes, and if you like it I need a codriver for Nationals too
> 
> "Nationally" has more to do with drivers than anything else


Sure, the driver is the most important part of the equation, but at the highest level having a competetive car that is well prepared means a lot, no?

I don't see any E36 M3s or E46 ZHPs winning a championship this year...


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

SoloII///M said:


> I don't see any E36 M3s or E46 ZHPs winning a championship this year...


But John, that's only 'cause you and I haven't been running all the Tour events!!

(ha ha... just kidding  )


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

Andy said:


> But John, that's only 'cause you and I haven't been running all the Tour events!!
> 
> (ha ha... just kidding  )


LOL. I have no doubt that a good driver in my car (or yours) could beat me driving a competetive S2000, Z4, 350Z, etc...

[miscellaneous ramblings]

... I'm just stubborn enough that I signed up for the tour event so it can be proven to me  It is much too easy to win at the local events, become complacent, and start thinking you're hot ****. Hell, it took me getting beaten at the previous local event to realize that I've been pu$$yfooting it in specific spots. I rode with a couple guys and learned areas that I was going much too slowly, and I worked to fix those areas. I think the Tour event will wake me up and force me to face more of my weaknesses instead of getting into a "I'm good enough" rut like I had been.

This weekend made me realize I will never be satisfied with my autocross performance. I won my class (if only barely) by beating the guy (S2000) who destroyed me at every event last year. Most of that I chalk up to him getting used to his new tires (S04s) but I do think I'm doing better than last year. Bottom line, I think the only way to gauge one's driving is to use "the best" drivers as your baseline. Yeah, the DC Tour won't attract "the best" drivers necessarily, but the competition will be stiffer than at the local events.

Still, as I was driving home from the event I kept replaying the mistakes I made in my head. I know I lost a tenth or two not sticking close enough to the inside cone of a box, which made my path to the next gate a bit longer. I lost some time spinning the rear tires coming out of a tight turn. I lifted a smidge to get them back in friendly contact with the pavement, but at that point the damage had been done. I didn't drive hard enough into the uphill slalom (where Clyde and others spun out) and I didn't keep a tight enough line at the _end_ of that uphill slalom, so I lost some time there.

Hopefully at the Tour I can get some of the better drivers to give me feedback as observers.

[/Miscellaneous ramblings]

Am I crazy? Any of you other autocrossers feel this way?


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