# My ZHP has arrived at dealer - I don't know if I want it...



## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Not kidding.

Do I really want a $43,000 car that idles rough, stalls and has a flat spot in the powerband?

I really don't know what to do... This rough idle issue really bugs me.

I MIGHT not take delivery...

Thoughts?


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## Bigerr19 (Feb 27, 2004)

How do you know it will have those problems? I have 12,000 miles on mine and no stalling or idle issues. I've seen the "flat spot" on the dyno printout, but I don't notice it when driving. Give it a go!


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Bigerr19 said:


> How do you know it will have those problems? I have 12,000 miles on mine and no stalling or idle issues. I've seen the "flat spot" on the dyno printout, but I don't notice it when driving. Give it a go!


And if it does have the problem and they can't fix it, like so many other people here...?


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## LarryN (Dec 24, 2001)

Gee, I wonder why they don't allow Individual in the US? :dunno:


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

LarryN said:


> Gee, I wonder why they don't allow Individual in the US? :dunno:


 :rofl: :rofl:

Do not let the idle/stall issue impact your decision. I have 29k on my car and it has never stalled. A slight idle drop occassionally that's it. It is quite likely that a newly produced model with have been remedied any way, bottom line a "what if" scenario should not change your mind. And I certainly hope you did not agree to pay 43k unless you got Nav and every other option


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Dr. Phil said:


> And I certainly hope you did not agree to pay 43k unless you got Nav and every other option


Nah - exaggeration for effect. $38.5 well equipped.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

kurichan said:


> Nah - exaggeration for effect. $38.5 well equipped.


 :thumbup:

Go get it, drive it and post some pics :bigpimp:


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2004)

Dr. Phil said:


> :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> Do not let the idle/stall issue impact your decision. I have 29k on my car and it has never stalled. A slight idle drop occassionally that's it. It is quite likely that a newly produced model with have been remedied any way, bottom line a "what if" scenario should not change your mind. And I certainly hope you did not agree to pay 43k unless you got Nav and every other option


 This is the first time I've seen the "flat spot" mentioned online. It's funny that I noticed it in a <5 minute not-even-very-aggressive drive.

I'm not sure how much it would bug me if it were my car. But it is noticable.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

kurichan said:


> Not kidding.
> 
> Do I really want a $43,000 car that idles rough, stalls and has a flat spot in the powerband?
> 
> ...


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## flashinthepan (Jul 25, 2003)

Excuse me for asking ! but is this just a ZHP issue ?

My 330cic was pretty smooth at idle & my M3 is "Glass smooth"

:dunno: :dunno:


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> This is the first time I've seen the "flat spot" mentioned online. It's funny that I noticed it in a <5 minute not-even-very-aggressive drive.
> 
> I'm not sure how much it would bug me if it were my car. But it is noticable.


If you mean the 4k blip, it has improved with the cai and pulley set up, especially in aggressive mode :bigpimp: Granny driving, easing up to 4k +, you can still feel it a bit. I look forward to getting your and the other "team" members feedback on the things I have done.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

flashinthepan said:


> Excuse me for asking ! but is this just a ZHP issue ?
> 
> My 330cic was pretty smooth at idle & my M3 is "Glass smooth"
> 
> :dunno: :dunno:


No


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## killajoe (Apr 22, 2004)

kurichan said:


> Not kidding.
> 
> Do I really want a $43,000 car that idles rough, stalls and has a flat spot in the powerband?
> 
> ...


I love my 03 ZHP (and I say that even as it's in the dealership right now getting the supposed rough idle fix). Why? Here are a few reasons, by no means comprehensive:

1. It handles like a dream - the steering is just too cool.
2. The engine sounds AWESOME!!!! Nothing else like it out there - no need for mods.
3. The interior has a unique style that IMHO kills the lower 3er's and even the M3's interior
4. The short shifter is way cool, w/ 6 gears.
5. The simple fact that even after over a year and 13K miles, I still try to find excuses to run errands just to drive it. I still look back at it every time I park and just stare with a big smile on my face...every time...

Now having said that, you've got every right to be concerned about paying $43 large for a car with these issues (idle, flat spot).

As for the rough idle, once I had my ignition coils replaced with Bosch units, it hasn't stalled or even come close but still seems to have trouble "finding" the exact RPM to idle at. You probably already have the Bosch units and might even have the updated DME as well.

As for the "flat spot" in the torque band, this is really only noticeable, to me, when if I decide to floor it in second without having already run it hard in 1st (by accelerating hard in 1st, the inertia seems to carry the car through 2nd better making the dip hardly noticeable if at all).

If you have the jack and can take only 2 doors, I would consider the M3. I have to have 4 doors, so that wasn't an option for me. Right now, I'm driving the dealer loaner car which is a 325 SMG and can't wait to get my car back. This car is by comparison boring as hell. Also, I've seen posts saying the 325 SMG "feels" quicker off the launch. Please. That's just the first .5 seconds while the torque multiplication is in effect. My ZHP would kick the crap out of this SMG, not that it's a bad car because it's not (smooth automatic but the SMG idea is a joke, the engine is smooth and strong too).

I'm supposed to get my ZHP back tomorrow and will post updates on the effects of the software update ASAP.

HTH,

killajoe


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Not sure why people would rolleyes to my post... Maybe I'm uptight. Maybe not... I just cannot imagine being in a very good mood if the car turns out to have the problem, especially since I knew about the trouble before taking delivery of the car...


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

killajoe said:


> I love my 03 ZHP (and I say that even as it's in the dealership right now getting the supposed rough idle fix). Why? Here are a few reasons, by no means comprehensive:
> 
> 1. It handles like a dream - the steering is just too cool.
> 2. The engine sounds AWESOME!!!! Nothing else like it out there - no need for mods.
> ...


Thanks for the post killajoe... Can't wait to hear about how your car is after the update. Please share more with us about the flat spot. I only heard about it recently. On my pre-delivery test drive, how can I purposely experience it?

Also, I have to have a 4 door... 2 little kids...


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## alkao (Jan 3, 2004)

My idle's been fine. 4500 miles so far. Only stalls have been my fault.

Flat spot in the powerband? Not that I've noticed. My experience / skill level isn't that high so that might be it.

I'm brining it in to replace a fuel sender next week but I still don't regret getting a ZHP instead of a regular 330i sport (or IS300, G35, C320, etc) . Money wasn't my bigest problem... I get paid too much to do too little. Most importantly... There is a smile on my face every time I start it up. 

My only regret is time... I wish I had gotten a car like this sooner! (Well... actually I would have liked it if there were a light coloured alcantara seat option or air-cooled seats, better/stronger air con, laser canon for those slow left lane cars, but you can't have everything.)

I don’t think the problems people have reported should be the reason not to pick up the ZHP since I seen plenty of posts with satisfied customers. Maybe the ZHP reported problems isn’t the real problem. (Now I am pretending to be a shrink.) Pick it up or not... you got to be happy in the end. Regrets are not good. Know thy self.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

"Flat spot" is an extreme exaggeration. "Tiny notch" is much more descriptive. And it's on EVERY car with the M52 or M54 motor. It is also on other motors from other manufacturers that employ some sort of discrete variable intake runner system. The physics make it unavoidable in the transition between long and short effective runners when the resonance valve opens. A properly functioning M52/54 motor has a power/torque curve that looks like this:










Every dyno graph I've seen over several years on the board for the 3 series has had this basic shape, with the runner switchover notch around 4k RPM. As you can see from the graph, it's almost nothing. You can feel it as the engine revs through 4k, but it's easy to miss if you're not paying attention -- it's that minor.

In contrast, the only owner I know of that's had a serious problem that could be characterized as a "flat spot" was stylinexpat, who modded hi engine with a supercharger, and there is some controversy over whether or not he made further changes to the setup after the supercharger was installed and the car returned to him by the tuner (I'm not making any statements as to what the case is here, just sharing the situation as it was posted by him and contradicted by the tuner in this thread).

His power/torque curve, on a dyno, looked like this:










That is one messed-up dyno chart for an M54 motor! However, it's the only one I've ever seen like that.

So, pick up your ride and enjoy! There's nothing to be concerned about in terms of a "flat spot" in the power curve, the idle problem seems to be affecting a minority of the cars, and it looks like it's on it's way to being resolved. You'll be glad you didn't back out of this decision, if you go and get your Ultimate Driving Machine. :thumbup:

The only person I've seen with a "flat spot" was


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## RChoudry (Jan 13, 2002)

you have solid concerns kurichan.

I have not stalled, but only have the rough intermittent idle.

tough decision for you to make, but overall it's a great car.


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## johnnygraphic (Jun 26, 2004)

You could spend your money on an Acura TL. It has a TON of torque steer, fit & finish problems (double sided tape on the headliner?), peeling paint from the bumper and no where close to the same amount of service from the dealership network as you get from BMW...

Just know that for every pro there IS a con. Doubt every move you make & you'll never leave the house or get out of bed! 

Take another test drive and drive it hard. Be objective. In the end, it is YOUR decision.

Johnny


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Not kidding.
> 
> Do I really want a $43,000 car that idles rough, stalls and has a flat spot in the powerband?
> 
> ...


If you don't get the ZHP do you already know what car you're going to get?


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Is there a such thing as a perfect car? 

There are other nagging problems with the E46 other than the 330 idle/stall problem you either live with them and wait for a fix or move on. 

Performance, fun factor, engineering, luxury, quality, styling, fits 4 adults, in the price range of the average working guy... if there is another car besides the E46 that hits all these points I have not found it.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Moderato said:


> If you don't get the ZHP do you already know what car you're going to get?


Whether I get the ZHP, I'm getting one of these any day now:










I can tool around in it until I find a practical replacement for the ZHP. Problem is, there's nothing out there... Maybe I'll just get a 325 sport. Not as much zip as the ZHP, but a great car... I can hop in the Spyder when I want to get my kicks!


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Not kidding.
> 
> Do I really want a $43,000 car that idles rough, stalls and has a flat spot in the powerband?
> 
> ...


Never had this stall issue or rough idling. 13 months with my ZHP and it runs fine.

IMHO you're only hearing from the whiners. I haven't muttered much of anything about my rattling moonroof as I figure one trip to the dealer will fix it.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

kurichan said:


> And if it does have the problem and they can't fix it, like so many other people here...?


And if I get hit by a falling anvil tomorrow? You're buying an unreliable brand to begin with and you're fretting over stalling? It's a BMW, it's not like you're buying a well made, reliable appliance like a Lexus or Infiniti.

Life's too short to worry about what-ifs. I'll enjoy the hell out of my car in spite of the fact it has quirks.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Never had this stall issue or rough idling. 13 months with my ZHP and it runs fine.
> 
> IMHO you're only hearing from the whiners. I haven't muttered much of anything about my rattling moonroof as I figure one trip to the dealer will fix it.


Unfortunately, I'm probably more the whiner type when it comes to something like this... The stalling issue would absolutely infuriate me. Not much bugs me, but this would drive me bonkers! I can see myself getting mighty ticked off if I get chronic stalling. Additionally, what I haven't seen mentioned is that if it stalls, you lose all power assist. My wife is 5'3". She might not be able to stop the car if it stalls... That worries me!


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> And if I get hit by a falling anvil tomorrow? You're buying an unreliable brand to begin with and you're fretting over stalling? It's a BMW, it's not like you're buying a well made, reliable appliance like a Lexus or Infiniti.
> 
> Life's too short to worry about what-ifs. I'll enjoy the hell out of my car in spite of the fact it has quirks.


Unreliable? Our 528iAT was FLAWLESS. This is news to me. Are BMW's really unreliable?


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Unreliable? Our 528iAT was FLAWLESS. This is news to me. Are BMW's really unreliable?


JD Power report came out today and as usual BMW is dwelling in the middle of the pack with 264 problems per 100 cars. Industry average is 269. Lexus leads with like 164-8 (can't recall). Infiniti and Buick and Acura are right behind.

Some people don't consider average as bad. Scoring in the 50 percentile when I went to school meant you flunked.

German makes, in general, tend to be some pretty poorly engineered/constructed cars. VW, Audi and MB are now cellar dwellers.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

Well, I can bet that Buick is rated higher than BMW in reliability based on any customer-based survey. You know why? Because even if their suspension was falling off and engine was nothing but one big flat spot they would simply not notice it nor would they care.
You keep hearing about all these problems because BMW is still for many people an enthusiast car and they do care about all aspects of it. They notice and seek improvement.
No, I am not saying that it is bullet proof engineered machine. It is not. All cars WILL have problems. And so will your dishwasher, blender, lawn-mower etc etc. They are mechanical devices created by men/women. Many of them are bound to fail. And many will.
Your car is on warranty and will be fixed. Sooner or later. Remember the whole sticky pedal issue? 
Now, most of other peoples cars I've driven seem to have tons of issues but they simply do not notice it. As long as it moves, it's OK. If it was my BMW I would be posting about it multiple times here, complaining to my dealer and bitching to BMWNA all day every day.
Having said that in this price range I cannot think of a better new 4 door sedan to buy. Despite all the competition, you are getting a fabulous car. People in Europe, where this car is made, can only dream of having one as it is completely unattainable to most. People there would be in seventh heaven if they could possibly get a bmw compact.
You are getting one of the top of the line cars and should feel lucky that you can afford one. Many people would love to be in your position.
I hope you come to your senses and enjoy the car.


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## killajoe (Apr 22, 2004)

kurichan said:


> Thanks for the post killajoe... Can't wait to hear about how your car is after the update. Please share more with us about the flat spot. I only heard about it recently. On my pre-delivery test drive, how can I purposely experience it?
> 
> Also, I have to have a 4 door... 2 little kids...


2 little ones here also - hence the 4 doors. My 4-yr old boy calls my ZHP the "super-duper" car, but the 325 loaner is only a "b-vin-w" which about somes it up...

To reproduce the dip: drive through 1st easy so you'll be in 2nd around 2500, then floor it. You'll feel awesome power through 3800 RPM (even though it peaks at 3500), then it starts to lag just a bit at 4000, then really picks up around 4500 through 6000. In a test drive, you probably won't (and shouldn't) be able to get to the second part of the band, but the dip is at 4000 anyway. RKT_BMR's post shows a great dyno, clearly displays the expected torque curve.

It's really not so much as a dip, but a decrease in the rate of acceleration as you're still accelerating, but the rate at which you are accelerating is decreasing, hence a perceived "dip" (I'll chart some acceleration runs to demonstrate this as soon as I get my G-Tech Pro timer).

I just got back from the gym. As I parked the 325, I walked away, looked back. Nothing. No smile. No excitement. Damn, I want my ZHP back...

Later,

killajoe


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> Well, I can bet that Buick is rated higher than BMW in reliability based on any customer-based survey. You know why? Because even if their suspension was falling off and engine was nothing but one big flat spot they would simply not notice it nor would they care.
> 
> ...
> 
> I hope you come to your senses and enjoy the car.


I liked your post right up until the last sentence. It is precisely because I **HAVE** my senses that I am hesitating...

I really might prefer a Honda Civic -- no kidding.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

killajoe said:


> In a test drive, you probably won't (and shouldn't) be able to get to the second part of the band, but the dip is at 4000 anyway. .


Why shouldn't he top it off? One time isn't going to hurt the car. And if he can, maybe he can test drive a different one. )

Heck, I'm the only customer to have ever driven my car. sucker was still in plastic when I took her for a spin.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

kurichan said:


> I liked your post right up until the last sentence. It is precisely because I **HAVE** my senses that I am hesitating...
> 
> I really might prefer a Honda Civic -- no kidding.


I think you really need to think about your priorities first. I think that's why you seem to be confused. 
I say go for the Civic. My wife had it for 12 years. Talk about reliability. She spent maybe a total of $800 for repairs. It started to disintegrate first before anything really failed. Reliability versus longevity I guess. 
Do not expect to spend $800 on your BMW if you are going to keep it for 12 years. If this is what you're looking for in a car, you would be making a big mistake buying the roundel.


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## killajoe (Apr 22, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Why shouldn't he top it off? One time isn't going to hurt the car. And if he can, maybe he can test drive a different one. )
> 
> Heck, I'm the only customer to have ever driven my car. sucker was still in plastic when I took her for a spin.


Ha! Seriously, you ought to be able to hit it if you're going to buy it (actually, if there's 2, maybe test drive the one you don't want...). Reminds me of when I test drove a brand new '96 Integra GSR. 8000 PRM redline and I used up every one...

But to see the "dip", you wouldn't even need to break 5000. BTW, now that I have 13K miles on my ZHP, the dip seems to be not as noticeable...

killajoe


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

That is exactly why I would never buy the car off the lot. When I was buying my ZHP I drove the **** out of the one they had on the lot shifting at redline almost every time. The car had maybe 25 miles on it. When they asked me if I wanted to take this one home I looked at them as if they were out of their mind.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

kurichan said:


> I liked your post right up until the last sentence. It is precisely because I **HAVE** my senses that I am hesitating...
> 
> I really might prefer a Honda Civic -- no kidding.


Then get one. Honestly, based on what you've said, it sounds like your tolerance for problems is pretty low, and figures more prominently in your values than performance. If that were the way my priorities were laid out, I would have gone for a car that rated highest in reliability, not highest in performance.


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## 330soon2b (May 30, 2004)

I traded in an 04 TL 5AT because of terrible tires, paint peeling and chipping at an alarming rate, squeaks, creaks, and rattles, and a horrible vibration between 50 and 60 mph. The ZHP is an awesome car in terms of fit, finish, ride quality, handling, and uniqueness. I have 1800 miles, no stall or rough idle (please no jinx). The car does NOT have the same power band as the TL VTEC; however, that doesn't mean it is slow. At highway speeds I will beat most anything on the road. The car simply pulls with no signs of strain. Initially, I thought the car was slow off the line, then I passed the break in mark and I am driving her harder. Turn off the a/c hold first gear until 6k rpms, keep the pedal to the floor and grab second gear and I guarantee you that you will be afraid to check your speed because you are going so fast by then that all your focus needs to remain on the road. I love the Alcantara steering well and the overall look of the car. This car gets a 10 out of 10 from me. One thing that you need to keep in mind is that the inline 6 has an entiringly different feel than the japanese v6. The acceleration is smooth and without all the howling from the engine. I don't really feel the VANOS at all, where the VTEC kicked in noticeably. That said, I feel that my ZHP is every bit as fast as my TL and handles many times better, without the squeaks and peeling paint. The only mistake you will make is to NOT buy that car!


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## nzDave (May 20, 2003)

Wallenrod said:


> Well, I can bet that Buick is rated higher than BMW in reliability based on any customer-based survey. You know why? Because even if their suspension was falling off and engine was nothing but one big flat spot they would simply not notice it nor would they care.
> You keep hearing about all these problems because BMW is still for many people an enthusiast car and they do care about all aspects of it. They notice and seek improvement.
> No, I am not saying that it is bullet proof engineered machine. It is not. All cars WILL have problems. And so will your dishwasher, blender, lawn-mower etc etc. They are mechanical devices created by men/women. Many of them are bound to fail. And many will.
> Your car is on warranty and will be fixed. Sooner or later. Remember the whole sticky pedal issue?
> ...


I agree....the more you pay for a car and the more you love your car and are a "It's not the destination..it's how you get there.." driver, the more critical you will be of the car.
I take Consumer Reports and JD with a grain of salt....
You can also take this place with a grain of salt...because people will 10 to 1 times come to complain about something then they're to say that they avoided an obstacle on the road and my car stopped safely while changing direction.

Lining up cars side by side doesn't always work....do people compare "stability control" aka DSC to that of a Honda Civic...side curtain air bags....better brakes!! The absolute little stuff that makes a BMW a BMW. Maybe a Maxima is faster 0-60, but there is so so much more to a car's build.

It's all about priorities in a car....the decison is yours.....at the end of the day we won't lose any sleep if someone buys another brand of car....that's why there are so many..so we have the choice that is right for ourselves. :thumbup:


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## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

Here's another tale about a completely different vehicle. All of this is in relation to a car that "shouldn't" have problems. Everyone talks about the vaunted quality of Japanese imports, and when people talk about "330 or G35," one of the items in the G35's favor always seems to be the reliability of the G35 - i.e. the car will never stall or leave you stranded.

We bought my wife a new 2004 Nissan Quest, all loaded up with every possible bell and whistle, last September. At that time there were three potential problems documented with the car. One was that an evap system leak might be spuriously detected, leading to the check engine light coming on for no reason. One was that the engine wouldn't start due to an issue with the anti-theft encoded keys. The other was another no-start issue, I think the Fuel pump or pressure regulator could have problems.

In any event, we bought a VERY early production vehicle, and in 10 months and 17K miles, we've not had a single problem (okay, the driver's side power slider got flaky for a bit, we had to manually open it). Some friends like the car and needed more space, so they got the same thing, right down to the colors. Their car was hit by all of the above probelms in the first month of ownership. This left them TWICE in a month with a new car that would not start, and our friend was getting ready for a recall/lemon law campaign.

And you know what? It wasn't even a BMW!

I've got a new (2/2004 build) ZHP. In 2500 miles, it has had a couple of rough idle spots, a couple of dropped idles, no outright stalls, and the car absolutely kicks ass. I wouldn't trade it for anything, certainly not one of the other cars I tested (RX8, G35, WRX, etc).

Buy it - live it up.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

nzDave said:


> I agree....the more you pay for a car and the more you love your car and are a "It's not the destination..it's how you get there.." driver, the more critical you will be of the car.


I buy a car I want perfection. I know I won't get it with a German car but heck it's fun. If I bought my ZHP, I'd hate it. Because it's a lease I know that I won't have to deal financially with its myriad of problems in the long run.

Cars to me are about fun but that doesn't mean the car should be unreliable.


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

After reading your initial post and your followups, I say don't buy it. If you go into the car buying relationship with expectations of dissatisfaction, then surely your expectations will be met. I had a ZHP for 18K trouble free miles, but would not never have hesitated buying one because of the niggling problems I have heard about here. If you have to ask strangers on an internet site for advice, I'd say you already know the answer. Don't buy it.


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## Hou330izhp (May 25, 2004)

Don't buy it. You are already expecting to have problems; any little thing that goes wrong will just really tick you off. I have 8,000 miles on my 2003 ZHP no stall/idle issue (knock on wood). I absolutely love the car and still make excuses to drive it.


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## NASA43 (Jul 19, 2003)

I bought mine back in March and have had zero stalls. Idle is still rock solid.


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## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

Hou330izhp said:


> Don't buy it. You are already expecting to have problems; any little thing that goes wrong will just really tick you off. I have 8,000 miles on my 2003 ZHP no stall/idle issue (knock on wood). I absolutely love the car and still make excuses to drive it.


I have to agree. Between meetings and other "distractions" (work), it took me about 2 hours to write my reply above (with the Nissan information). I was not checking the thread during that time, and there sure were a lot of new posts in that interim period.

With your other notes tossed in, I'd say don't buy it. But do keep in mind that *any* mechanical, electrical, chemical or biological system (like a car, stereo, drug, or wife) will have pros and cons and features and bugs and side-effects and......

Hopefully whatever you do get will please you. Good luck--

--Micah O'C


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## NetEngWiz (Apr 5, 2004)

A lot of posts about driving experience and power...if you can weed those out and take some advice from the posts that address your issue, I think you will find your answer. I've owned several German brands...VW, Audi, BMW...and they all have had issues. They don't rank too high on the J.D. Power surveys, so it shows. Since reliability is your top priority and concern, you should seek a more reliable vehicle. Good luck!


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## ClubSpec330i (Oct 22, 2003)

Seriously, what ROUGH idles are you talking about. It has been 9 months and 15k miles with the car and no serious problem at all, except for a broken front right bushing.

The longer you wait, the longer you will regret not having it. Geeze, this car was supposed to be my weekend/track car but I am driving it almost everyday. Of course, my Corolla FX16 GTS is also fun to drive but in a different manner.

GO FOR IT
GO FOR IT..


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## apar330i (Aug 19, 2002)

I've had mine for just about three weeks and have just passed the 1200 mile break in. So far no stalling or rough idle issues at all. I have noticed a slight flat spot around 4500 rpms. Until I read this post I had no idea that this was something experienced by most everyone else. I wouldn't worry to much about things going wrong with the car. BMW has a nice warrantee so you'll be covered for four years anyway. However, if you're still unsure maybe it would be best to look elsewhere. It's your dough so you need to do what makes you happy. Good luck with your decision.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

It really depends on your priority and expectations. If you expect it to be trouble-free in its entire life, you'd better rethink. People who are "knocking on wood" are just either lucky or the problems have not hit them yet. I have the ZHP for over a year and with 24k miles. Am I getting those infamous problems? Yes. And I didn't have a single problem till it hit 12k miles. Do I really care? No. Why? Because every time I start the engine, I forget everything, and I start smiling and having fun. If you give me a Lexus and "guarantee" that there will NOT be a single problem, will I be happy? NO. Why? Because I expect my car to be fun, not reliable, as with most of the members in this board.

Do you really need to get another car right now? I noticed you already had two. If you are not in a hurry, maybe you can wait till the idle/stalling problem resolved and then reconsider. I don't think it will be long before BMW comes up with a solution. The only negative about this is you are losing a few months of fun time.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> I think you really need to think about your priorities first. I think that's why you seem to be confused.
> I say go for the Civic. My wife had it for 12 years. Talk about reliability. She spent maybe a total of $800 for repairs. It started to disintegrate first before anything really failed. Reliability versus longevity I guess.
> Do not expect to spend $800 on your BMW if you are going to keep it for 12 years. If this is what you're looking for in a car, you would be making a big mistake buying the roundel.


I think the issue is my tolerance and BMWs lack of action on the issue to date. I guess I'm not very tolerant of people/companies who don't address problems squarely, up front.

But not wanting to take a car in several times because it can't do something as simple as idle is about BASIC QUALITY and BASIC FUNCTION not reliability. Our 528iAT was flawless. Regardless of all of this, I don't think expecting the car to idle right is unreasonable... Besides, I'm leasing for 3 years. Year 4 and beyond I could care less about.

Really sorry if I'm venting at your expense - I think I need to have a long talk with my BMW dealer and quiz them on what they would do if the problem cropped up...


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

I repeat, DON'T BUY IT. Your dealer can promise you anything, but no one could possibly know if you will have problems or not. I would hate to be the dealer that sold you that car going in to it with such negative assumptions.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

kurichan said:


> I think the issue is my tolerance and BMWs lack of action on the issue to date. I guess I'm not very tolerant of people/companies who don't address problems squarely, up front.
> 
> But not wanting to take a car in several times because it can't do something as simple as idle is about BASIC QUALITY and BASIC FUNCTION not reliability. Our 528iAT was flawless. Regardless of all of this, I don't think expecting the car to idle right is unreasonable... Besides, I'm leasing for 3 years. Year 4 and beyond I could care less about.
> 
> Really sorry if I'm venting at your expense - I think I need to have a long talk with my BMW dealer and quiz them on what they would do if the problem cropped up...


We are not saying that you are unreasonable. Everyone has a different level of tolerance and standard. For me, and many of us here, the fun factor of this vehicle is so high that it OUTWEIGHS all the problems and concerns we have. You may disagree. That's what we meant by priorities. Obviously, you care MORE about "basic quality and function" than "fun factor". None of us like to have the problems. But we can put up with them because we can't find another car, within our budget, that is more rewarding, period.

Also, by putting pressure on the dealer may not help much since this problem is beyond their technical capabilities. If BMWNA does not have a solution, what do you expect them to do? They may try to swap this or that under warranty just to keep you happy, but you know that those are not the real fix.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

There are a lot more problems with the MINI's than there are with the zhp package. The boards are full of multiple windshield replacements, hatch latch replacements, coolant bottle replacements, transmission failures, etc., etc. etc.

One day, a guy posted that he had picked up his car with grave misgivings b/c of all the potential problems. His advice to new buyers was to not read the boards b/c the car was so much fun that dealing with problems as they arose was well worth it. All the reading of the boards did was to depress him and make the delivery anticipation much less than it could have been.

I suspect you would feel the same way. The 330i is an excellent car for what it is and it does what it is designed to do exceptionally well. BMW has admitted the idle problem and they are working on it. Even if the current fix doesn't work, they will find one that does soon enough.

Nonetheless, if you are expecting a trouble free ride, you are gambling at greater odds than you would be if you bought a toyota. I can't imagine why you would have selected a zhp package if you would be happy with a toyota though.


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## KU Ned (Apr 23, 2003)

The idle/stall problem is entirely overblown on this board. If a car stalls, the owner jumps on one of these threads (me included) to report it. Those who have not had it happen stay quiet. It has affected my car but it only stalls once every month or so. The minor idle fluxuations do not bother me as they are only in the 100 rpm range. I have confidence that both minor issues will be taken care of soon.

The car is great in traffic, on the open road and on the track. Even with the issues, it is still my favorite car that I have ever owned. I do get upset on the rare occasion that it stalls but within a few minutes I am happy again.



rwg said:


> Nonetheless, if you are expecting a trouble free ride, you are gambling at greater odds than you would be if you bought a toyota. I can't imagine why you would have selected a zhp package if you would be happy with a toyota though.


I agree completely. I don't think you will find another car that does not have a glitch that occurs every-so-often. If you do will you enjoy driving it?

Good luck and let us know your final decision.


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

There was a poll on the Fest about the stall/idle issue and I do not believe a majority said they had the problem. So chances are you will be OK. And you are getting a later build date than any of use driving a ZHP now, so even better odds for you.

I faced a similar situation with my wife's new Yukon. I tried to steer her to an Acura MDX, Lexus, Sequoia, any of the top reliable brands. We were trading in a Honda. But reliability was not the issue with her. She liked the Yukon. You were like me - you wanted the reliabiilty. 

On the ZHP, I knew going in about BMW reliability. But I cared more for driving pleasure.

I have experienced the stall issue. Big deal. I start it back up and go on having fun. I will continue to monitor the Fest and when the issue is acknowledged by BMWNA with a TSB, then I will have the car fixed. 

I say if you know the stall issue is beyond your patience, don't buy. If you know you can deal with it until your dealer can fix it, buy the ZHP.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

BTW, as a side note, does anyone still wonder why American BMW customers get so few options compared to the rest of the world...


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

I can't believe I got sucked in to this thread...but now I'm invested (sigh).

Did you get it or what?


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

philippek said:


> I can't believe I got sucked in to this thread...but now I'm invested (sigh).
> 
> Did you get it or what?


:rofl:

Curiosity is killing' you.

I figure if we don't hear from him in 2 days, he went Asian.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

BloodRedHog said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Curiosity is killing' you.
> 
> I figure if we don't hear from him in 2 days, he went Asian.


I feel bad for whoever sells him a car...sounds like a CSI nightmare.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

philippek said:


> I can't believe I got sucked in to this thread...but now I'm invested (sigh).
> 
> Did you get it or what?


Hahaha! The dealer hasn't contacted me yet, and we agreed on delivery in mid to late July, so I don't have to step up quite yet. But the owners' club announcement of its arrival at the dealer got me to really thinking.

Frankly, I was hoping a miracle cure would have been announced by the time the car arrived.

It hasn't... 

Anyhow, I've got at least a couple more weeks...

But then again... it's there... waiting... to be driven... and some of you have made really convincing arguments to just say screw it and get the damn car...

Ahhh... the drama...


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

philippek said:


> I feel bad for whoever sells him a car...sounds like a CSI nightmare.


Not sure what to think about this comment. Maybe tongue in cheek -- if not, not very nice... I feel sorry for people who make snide comments about things they know little about... What a crappy attitude...


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> BTW, as a side note, does anyone still wonder why American BMW customers get so few options compared to the rest of the world...


Not quite sure what you mean...


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

wrwicky said:


> when the stalling does occur to people it's only pulling away from stops or low speed stiuations


Maybe I'm paranoid, but I wonder if anybody's ever had a stall when trying to pull out into a tight gap in traffic? I would be terrified to be stranded without power, stuck pulled out into a traffic lane with cars coming at me at 50 mph...


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Thanks for the "don't take it personally" otherwise I might have fumed a bit.
> 
> Actually, it's not "people like me," it's the law. And it's the law because dealers scammed too many consumers. Consumers are afforded many protections in the US that most of the world doesn't enjoy (I have lived in both Europe and Japan for a total of 11 years, so I've been there, seen all that). I think that the real reason you HAVE to take delivery is that in Europe, companies still rule. In the US, consumers rule.
> 
> ...


I hope you are kidding. Europe is way more "socialist" ( please DO notice the inverted commas) than the US. They have a law mandated warranties on every single product you buy and very strong consumer support groups.They are much more regulated than the US in every walk of life. Here in the US I was shocked that they actually wanted to SELL me a warranty as an added value thing. It never occured to me that a warranty could be a product in itself...
Also, I don't understand how this law is "because dealers scammed too many customers." Would you care to elaborate. It is not that I love dealers or anything but they are simply just selling products. It is up to you to buy it or not.
Another issue is you keep talking about contacting a sales person about all the technical problems. Why would they care or even know about it? They are there to SELL you things afterall. They are not even part of the BMW. They are independent franchises. They care as much as McDonalds employees about the quality of their product. If you want some service information you should talk to their service department which makes money in a completely different way.
Just my 2 Euros...

P.S. After listening to your arguments for while now - please do not get this car for your own sake - you will just be very very miserable with it.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

wrwicky said:


> 50 Percentile is probably the rough center point of a bell curve (the statistical mean), but that's not your real point, sorry to quibble.
> 
> Me, personally, I like getting a great deal. But I probably wouldn't brand somebody that pulled B's at La Jolla a failure.
> 
> ...


How about this...mea culpa?

Though I still believe 50th percentile equates to failure.  To each his own. Looking at JD Power...BMW's showing can't be termed a success!

"Do you want to be the guy everybody is rooting for, Mikey?"


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Maybe I'm paranoid, but I wonder if anybody's ever had a stall when trying to pull out into a tight gap in traffic? I would be terrified to be stranded without power, stuck pulled out into a traffic lane with cars coming at me at 50 mph...


Yes you're paranoid and in San Diego we only do 50 on residential streets. :rofl:

As everyone has stated, the stall occurs on take off and at low, low speeds. My car has 18k hard miles. Not a sniff of a stall.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> Also, I don't understand how this law is "because dealers scammed too many customers." Would you care to elaborate.


I'd be glad to. By scams, I meant consumers getting into deals they didn't understand, sold cars loaded down with options they don't want or need. Salespeople are pros at it. That's why ordering a car and taking delivery are actually two different things. In fact, in some states, there are "cool off" periods for purchases and leases (I think it's mostly on used vehicles). If you wake up the next morning and think "what have I done" there are ways out.

As to whether corporations or consumers have the upper hand, I still think that the US has gone further to truly protect CONSUMERS. European goverments have gone further to protect PEOPLE in general (national health, social programs, unemployment benefits, etc.).


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

Kurichan-

I'm in the same boat as you, waiting on the ZHP that I ordered. I have to admit that it makes me nervous hearing about the stalling issues that some have had. I want a car that excites me, but I still need it to be reasonably reliable. 

In the process of shopping for a car, I've been on about 5 different car forums, representing 5 different manufacturers (some of them famous for their reliability). Their are two things that I've noticed, that you really shouldn't let impact your decision:

1. EVERY car has certain problems that come up more consistently than in other cars. Go look at the Acura TL forum or the Lexus IS300 forum. It is SCARY how many of these cars, which are made by automakers known for reliability, that are coming up with the same problems. Heck, my current Toyota Corolla, only 4 years old and with 50k miles, is falling apart on me with electrical, engine, and fit and finish issues (I keep shelling out money to get it fixed while I wait for the bimmer).

2. These problems are largely blown out of proportion. First, you don't hear people say anything when they don't have any problems because that's to be expected. So the vocal minority with problems sound like a majority. Second, when you are dealing with people on Internet forums, they are not representative of the entire population driving that type of car. They are much more likely to be very picky about the way their cars run.

Right now, you're looking at the BMW thinking about possible reliability issues. But this is a two-way street: you could turn down the ZHP for a theoretically more reliable, but less fun, car, which may have issues as well. Then you lose twice... 

In the end, you really just have to go with your gut and be honest with yourself. Either way, enjoy that Vintage!


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

kurichan said:


> I'd be glad to. By scams, I meant consumers getting into deals they didn't understand, sold cars loaded down with options they don't want or need. Salespeople are pros at it. That's why ordering a car and taking delivery are actually two different things. In fact, in some states, there are "cool off" periods for purchases and leases (I think it's mostly on used vehicles). If you wake up the next morning and think "what have I done" there are ways out.
> 
> As to whether corporations or consumers have the upper hand, I still think that the US has gone further to truly protect CONSUMERS. European goverments have gone further to protect PEOPLE in general (national health, social programs, unemployment benefits, etc.).


How can you buy something you don't want. I really don't understand it. Don't you do your own research before you go into a dealership? Especially when you buy a $40K product. I hope you know what you want when you go there. I do my research before I buy a $20 bottle of wine. Why would you buy options you don't want? I'm sorry - maybe I'm just really stupid - but I simply can't understand why someone would buy something they don't want in the first place?
How do you deferentiate PEOPLE from CONSUMERS?


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> How do you deferentiate PEOPLE from CONSUMERS?


Not to go OT again, but the law differentiates between people and consumers. While studying law at Oxford, I took a comparative law class dealing with European and US law. In terms of consumer transactions, the US has enacted MUCH more legislation protecting the consumer on both the Federal and state level. The primary difference that I noticed between US and European laws is that European laws regulate consumer transactions more on the front end (placing limitations on the seller), while US laws tend to regulate such transactions on the tail end by providing more remedies to the consumer. Overall, however, the US is a MUCH more consumer-friendly environment, legally speaking, although that has been changing, especially since the development of the EU.

But all that is neither here nor there with respect to Kurichan's decision.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

TLudwig said:


> Not to go OT again, but the law differentiates between people and consumers. While studying law at Oxford, I took a comparative law class dealing with European and US law. In terms of consumer transactions, the US has enacted MUCH more legislation protecting the consumer on both the Federal and state level. The primary difference that I noticed between US and European laws is that European laws regulate consumer transactions more on the front end (placing limitations on the seller), while US laws tend to regulate such transactions on the tail end by providing more remedies to the consumer. Overall, however, the US is a MUCH more consumer-friendly environment, legally speaking, although that has been changing, especially since the development of the EU.
> 
> But all that is neither here nor there with respect to Kurichan's decision.


Yes. I also don't want to take this discussion OT as it really does not have any bearing on Kurichan's decision. 
I do agree with you absolutely on the front end/back end comparison of consumer protection laws. Some of my family members are actually working in both Brussels and Strassburg for EU institutions and I do get quite a bit of feed back from them and overall, as you pointed out with regards to EU, I think EU is more protective than the US in a regulatory way as opposed to litigation (so widespread in the US) - I'm not a lawyer so forgive my ignorence in the nomenclature.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

kurichan said:


> Maybe I'm paranoid, but I wonder if anybody's ever had a stall when trying to pull out into a tight gap in traffic? I would be terrified to be stranded without power, stuck pulled out into a traffic lane with cars coming at me at 50 mph...


Well, you're trying to make a decision, and you sound like you have enough concerns and reservations, but hey, you might as well know this happened to me last night:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64884

Still, I have no regrets about getting this car. The brakes worked fine. I pulled over, and everything was okay afterward. I drove the car to work today, driving as I normally do (mostly relaxed with occasional aggressive spurts, but no revs past 5K), and everything was fine. I'll push it some more Friday and hope that was a fluke... :eeps:

I've not had the stalling/rough-idle problem as described by most people (From a stop).

By the way, if you lose power steering at highway speed, it's no big deal, having driven a car that had no power steering. Losing powered brakes also is no big deal, having driven a car that developed a brake line leak and I needed to stop from ~50 to 0 in the length of a left-turn lane designed for a 55 zone. If you lost brake assist, your stop distance will increase, but I doubt you'd lose more than a third of your braking ability. If your engine quits at speed, you don't lose control of the car. It's not a time to panic if you're driving on normal roads.

All that negativity aside, still my dream car. Okay, so that's a lie, but I'll honestly say it's my third-best dream car, and the most practical of the three. :thumbup:


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

kurichan said:


> Thanks for the "don't take it personally" otherwise I might have fumed a bit.
> 
> Actually, it's not "people like me," it's the law.


What perhaps you take for granted is that you are able to drop the purchase of a car you ordered, on the basis of several complaints on an internet message board. If you come out fighting and shouting, and say "Hey, sell me this car! COME ON!" to your dealer, they won't bother because they know they can sell the car to someone else (who maybe doesn't spend time on internet message boards).

The law in the US is your law - if you like it, keep it; if you don't, lobby to have it changed. But it does come with limitations on the flip side; no matter what you think about BMW NA trying to scam you, screw you, or nail you into buying high-margin packages, there is a real effect on the variations you are allowed. (Also to affect this is BMW NA's desire to maintain healthy pre-owned values. Badly optioned cars in the UK lose thousands compared to a nice, safe spec - caveat emptor.)

BTW in most European countries, and certainly the UK, my deposit would be lost if I didn't accept a car I ordered. If I was concerned about a stalling issue (we don't get the tweaked motor here, and the 330i engine is generally regarded as a paragon of reliability) then I would not be able to drop the sale and demand my money back on the say-so of an internet board community whose members never post to say "Hi, all fine today. Cheers!".

What I might do is write to the dealer and say that the car is being taken with the proviso that if certain problems arise and which aren't fixed within six months or three visits, then the car is returned and I get a full refund. I wouldn't start yelling consumer-power slogans on the dealer's lot - that's not a great way to conduct a business relationship, even in the US.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Buy the car, you will not regret it and the "issues" will be resolved *IF *  you have any which I seriously doubt since the "problem" is known within BMW and they are making any required changes to eliminate the "problems".


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## ChitwnZHP (Jan 30, 2004)

Dr. Phil said:


> Buy the car, you will not regret it and the "issues" will be resolved *IF *  you have any which I seriously doubt since the "problem" is known within BMW and they are making any required changes to eliminate the "problems".


she will be 1 year old in 10 days and has 15,000 on her, she runs like a dream! Not one stall or idle issue , Im loving this car!!!


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

I sure hope kurichan doesn't by the 330iZHP, who hell wants to read a bunch of his whining posts about how the car doesn't live up to his expectations.


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## Hou330izhp (May 25, 2004)

kurichan said:


> I'd be glad to. By scams, I meant consumers getting into deals they didn't understand, sold cars loaded down with options they don't want or need. Salespeople are pros at it. That's why ordering a car and taking delivery are actually two different things. In fact, in some states, there are "cool off" periods for purchases and leases (I think it's mostly on used vehicles). If you wake up the next morning and think "what have I done" there are ways out.
> 
> As to whether corporations or consumers have the upper hand, I still think that the US has gone further to truly protect CONSUMERS. European goverments have gone further to protect PEOPLE in general (national health, social programs, unemployment benefits, etc.).


I just noticed that you also have a 2003 Honda Pilot; Have you ever checked out the www.hondapilot.org web-site? The ZHP stall issue is minor compared to all of the problems reported on that forum. I have already had my wife's Pilot in twice for servicing (did you get your transmission recall notice yet?) and it's a "reliable" Honda! Just goes to show that even Hondas can have issues.

I'll say it again, since you are already expecting problems you will never be satisfied with this car.


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> Yes. I also don't want to take this discussion OT as it really does not have any bearing on Kurichan's decision.
> I do agree with you absolutely on the front end/back end comparison of consumer protection laws. Some of my family members are actually working in both Brussels and Strassburg for EU institutions and I do get quite a bit of feed back from them and overall, as you pointed out with regards to EU, I think EU is more protective than the US in a regulatory way as opposed to litigation (so widespread in the US) - I'm not a lawyer so forgive my ignorence in the nomenclature.


Didn't mean to get nitpicky over words, Wallenrod, that was the anal side of me coming out. Overall, I agree completely with the points you were making earlier. :beerchug:

I will say that this doesn't seem to be one of those times that consumer protection laws were intended for. This whole stalling issue, relatively minor as it is, is something that could have been discovered with thorough research _before_ any sale was negotiated. Shouldn't make the dealer pay for lack of research on the front end.

Hou330iZHP, you're exactly right about the Honda Pilot and many other supposedly reliable cars that you read about online. That was exactly the point that I was trying to make earlier.


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## Hou330izhp (May 25, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> That's a bell curve where a C is the middle point. Who said anything about a bell curve?
> 
> Regardless, working off a bell curve would mean 50th percentile places one as average. Average = failure in my eyes. It's like those people who seek to get the average sale price of a car. So you don't want to be the guy who gets the deal...you want to be the one who is just like everybody?
> 
> Suddenly I'm recalling the Bear and Bunny speech from "Swingers." :rofl:


Doesn't this mean BMWs are above average?

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0406/30/c01-199247.htm


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Hou330izhp said:


> Doesn't this mean BMWs are above average?
> 
> http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0406/30/c01-199247.htm


Barely.  Industry average is 269, BMW is 264. What's lexus at? Yeah a good 100 fewer problems. Obviously BMW is not in lexus' league. or infiniti's.


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## LDV330i (May 24, 2003)

Hou330izhp said:


> Doesn't this mean BMWs are above average?
> 
> http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0406/30/c01-199247.htm


 People are concerned about reliability. Yes your odds are minimized by purchasing a car from a highly ranked manurfacturer but that is not a guarantee that the car will be problem free. When I bought my 318ti, people questioned my judgement since I could have bought at Honda Prelude for less and would have been expected to be super reliable. Well, it turns out that my 318ti exceed my expectations and any prognostication of reliability. In the nearly 7 years I had it, it never ever had any mechanical malfunctions or failure of any component. Just fed it gas and changed the oil routinely. :thumbup:The only issue was that the battery only lasted an average of 24 months. After owning 2 POC VW's that was nothing.

My 330i about 3 months ago did have a couple on instances of the idle stumbling and in 1 case a near stall. Have had no recurring incidents since then. Why worry about something that has not happen yet? :dunno:


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

Hou330izhp said:


> Doesn't this mean BMWs are above average?
> 
> http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0406/30/c01-199247.htm


Interesting to see the marquees Audi, MB, Volvo, and all the Korean brands coming in substantially worse than BMW on this list.

Kurichan, personally I think you're having some serious OCD about this. But, given how you've worked up your expectations in this thread, I think it would be a mistake to get the car at this point because anything less than absolutely flawless perfection is going to piss you off and cause you no amount of angst.


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> I sure hope kurichan doesn't by the 330iZHP, who hell wants to read a bunch of his whining posts about how the car doesn't live up to his expectations.


Come on man...that was uncalled for.
The guy is as obsessive as all of us are. A vast majority of BMW owners never once think about reading or posting on a BMW internet forum.

He has legitimate concerns. Reliability and the nature of the stall as it relates to safety. If he decides to accept the car, then we should welcome his insights on the Fest, even if it is to complain about the dreaded stall. Chances are, he won't have it anyway.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

BloodRedHog said:


> Come on man...that was uncalled for.
> The guy is as obsessive as all of us are. A vast majority of BMW owners never once think about reading or posting on a BMW internet forum.
> 
> He has legitimate concerns. Reliability and the nature of the stall as it relates to safety. If he decides to accept the car, then we should welcome his insights on the Fest, even if it is to complain about the dreaded stall. Chances are, he won't have it anyway.


:thumbup:


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

You people that want him to buy it are gluttons for punishment.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

Here, read this - it's an excellent discussion of what I was talking about:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65013

Who cares if you have a problem or two along the way?


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

*ZHP, all bow to the ZHP god...*

I know my car has the stalling issue, but only when running without AC in hot weather. It's an annoying trait that also has some potential safety side-effects. So what makes it bearable, as I have no intention of getting rid of this car? I'll tell you what:

- having passed *ALL* E36 M3s in my run group at the track. In EVERY session, even after my brakes were toast.

I gave up a 98 M3 to get a bigger, comfier, safer 4 door car that retains some of that M3 magic - well after 1 year of ownership I can definitely say my goal has been accomplished.

It took: an intake, clutch stop and CDV removal to get about 80% of that magic feel (total $300). It would take another $800 (LTW flywheeel) to get another 10% of that feel, and I'll get to that as soon as ROGUE/UUC release one.

Of course, all this is subjective. I would indeed suggest to the original poster to not purchase the ZHP, his priorities are certainly lying elsewhere... and there is nothing wrong with that.

Happy motoring,
adc
03 330 ZHP


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

adc said:


> I know my car has the stalling issue, but only when running without AC in hot weather. It's an annoying trait that also has some potential safety side-effects. So what makes it bearable, as I have no intention of getting rid of this car? I'll tell you what:


Is the stall related to the AC? May explain why i've never felt it as my AC runs 99% of the time.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

BloodRedHog said:


> Come on man...that was uncalled for.
> The guy is as obsessive as all of us are. A vast majority of BMW owners never once think about reading or posting on a BMW internet forum.
> 
> He has legitimate concerns. Reliability and the nature of the stall as it relates to safety. If he decides to accept the car, then we should welcome his insights on the Fest, even if it is to complain about the dreaded stall. Chances are, he won't have it anyway.


The guy hasn't even picked up the f'n car yet! There could be a million different pieces that could fail on the car.

Life is to short... deal with it when and if the problem arises.

What the heck good is it to whine about something that hasn't even happend yet. :tsk:


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

*AC stall*



blueguydotcom said:


> Is the stall related to the AC? May explain why i've never felt it as my AC runs 99% of the time.


It seems to be for me. No stalling since always running with AC on...

Try it out, if it happens then you'll know what to avoid.

adc


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

andy_thomas said:


> What perhaps you take for granted is that you are able to drop the purchase of a car you ordered, on the basis of several complaints on an internet message board. If you come out fighting and shouting, and say "Hey, sell me this car! COME ON!" to your dealer, they won't bother because they know they can sell the car to someone else (who maybe doesn't spend time on internet message boards).
> 
> The law in the US is your law - if you like it, keep it; if you don't, lobby to have it changed. But it does come with limitations on the flip side; no matter what you think about BMW NA trying to scam you, screw you, or nail you into buying high-margin packages, there is a real effect on the variations you are allowed. (Also to affect this is BMW NA's desire to maintain healthy pre-owned values. Badly optioned cars in the UK lose thousands compared to a nice, safe spec - caveat emptor.)
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, I never said BMW NA was trying to scam me. And I'm not a screamer, so you won't find me shouting consumer-power slogans.

I had planned the proviso approach you mention in your last paragraph.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

BloodRedHog said:


> Come on man...that was uncalled for.
> The guy is as obsessive as all of us are. A vast majority of BMW owners never once think about reading or posting on a BMW internet forum.
> 
> He has legitimate concerns. Reliability and the nature of the stall as it relates to safety. If he decides to accept the car, then we should welcome his insights on the Fest, even if it is to complain about the dreaded stall. Chances are, he won't have it anyway.


Thanks for your support BloodRedHog! You won't be surprised to hear that I agree with you 100%


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> How can you buy something you don't want. I really don't understand it. Don't you do your own research before you go into a dealership? Especially when you buy a $40K product. I hope you know what you want when you go there. I do my research before I buy a $20 bottle of wine. Why would you buy options you don't want? I'm sorry - maybe I'm just really stupid - but I simply can't understand why someone would buy something they don't want in the first place?


You and I are informed consumers, which is why we are having this discussion.

But please don't tell me that you are so naive as to believe that folks less savvy than us don't get suckered every single day into buying automotive add ons (and other products) that they just don't need? The law serves to protect them. Think about it: even the most savvy consumer gets excited and makes impulse purchases. Are you aware that 70% of CD purchases at music shops are unplanned impulse purchases? Impulse purchases happen at car dealers all the time. There are even commericals that make fun of it. Do the salespeople take advantage of "showroom excitement" and "showroom jitters?"  You betcha they do. That's how people get suckered into crummy leases too.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Kurichan I saw you mentioned something about power cutting out and being unable to stop that car. Huh? Brakes still work and she can ebrake it.


Roll your car in neutral down a hill with the engine off and try to stop it. Better yet, find a 100 lb woman and have her try it. If she can stop it at all, I'd bet the stopping distance will be at least double. The time from pressing the brake, the car not stopping to the panic pull of the e-brake is enough to be the difference between an accident and escape.

The fact is, assist going out on a 3300 lb car is an unsafe situation for any driver (brakes AND steering!).


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

kurichan said:


> You and I are informed consumers, which is why we are having this discussion.
> 
> But please don't tell me that you are so naive as to believe that folks less savvy than us don't get suckered every single day into buying automotive add ons (and other products) that they just don't need? The law serves to protect them. Think about it: even the most savvy consumer gets excited and makes impulse purchases. Are you aware that 70% of CD purchases at music shops are unplanned impulse purchases? Impulse purchases happen at car dealers all the time. There are even commericals that make fun of it. Do the salespeople take advantage of "showroom excitement" and "showroom jitters?" You betcha they do. That's how people get suckered into crummy leases too.


I assume we are all free adults equipped with brains as standard option here. Unless someone is pointing a gun to your head, there is nothing you HAVE to do. If someone is buying a $40K product on an impulse they are either filthy rich and just don't care, really loved it and this is it for them or are just plain stupid. Whatever the case it is a DECISION they make and should be binding. You really don't have to make it right there. What? You don't want to be rude to the sales person? You really believe that this "deal" is not gonna be there tomorrow? 
Once you decide on something though it should be binding for all parties involved and there shouldn't be any cooling off periods or other protections. It's not communism afterall, you don't want a government to think for you.
How would you like if a dealer could do the same to you? You order a car, maybe even get a great financing deal available at the time and in couple months when your car arrives your dealer tells you that he sold it to someone else because he changed his mind and they were offering more. How would you like that?


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## bimmaboy23 (Jun 7, 2003)

nothing in life is perfect, as im sure everyone knows..

dont let a stupid "idle/stall" issue on a car stop you from getting it..i have an 03 zhp, and yeah it idles rough or stalls very very rarely...but no it definitely doesn't just cut off under regular driving conditions..just at a stop for me...

think of it like getting a new computer...you know at SOME point or another its gonna freeze..and you're gonna have to boot her back up again...its just a formality..and in this case with a new 04, you might not even have to deal with the issue...

only instead of restarting a comp, you should be hearin that nice purr under the hood...go get the car...guranteed you will not be disappointed...goodluck

p.s. or just get an m3


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

kurichan said:


> Roll your car in neutral down a hill with the engine off and try to stop it. Better yet, find a 100 lb woman and have her try it. If she can stop it at all, I'd bet the stopping distance will be at least double. The time from pressing the brake, the car not stopping to the panic pull of the e-brake is enough to be the difference between an accident and escape.
> 
> The fact is, assist going out on a 3300 lb car is an unsafe situation for any driver (brakes AND steering!).


Actually, you should try this. It might make you feel a little better. The brake system has the ability to provide power assist for two or three applications of the brake pedal after the engine dies. I don't remember how or why, but it does. It's been that way for a long time.

You are right about steering though.

Here's another thought - has anyone heard of a single accident caused by the stalling problem?


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

rumratt said:


> And that is their problem!!!!!! God, what ever happened to personal responsibility. :tsk: I don't see why if you sign, it shouldn't be binding.
> 
> But in any case, it's not. And given that it's not, if you refuse the car you're doing what is within your right. I think it's kind of shady, but it is technically within your right. :dunno:


amen. make a mistake, suck it up.


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## rkahn (Feb 11, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> amen. make a mistake, suck it up.


Funny thing about this discussion. I've never owned a car that occasionally stalled when it was new. I've owned Nissan, Chevy, Toyota, Dodge, Triumph (a million problems but not that one), Mercedes, Cadillac, some I can't remember.

Why would a $40K plus car not run rock solid for 100K miles? The $15K cars I had did. (My 330Xi has 4K miles on it and doesn't stall (yet?).


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> I assume we are all free adults equipped with brains as standard option here. Unless someone is pointing a gun to your head, there is nothing you HAVE to do. If someone is buying a $40K product on an impulse they are either filthy rich and just don't care, really loved it and this is it for them or are just plain stupid. Whatever the case it is a DECISION they make and should be binding. You really don't have to make it right there. What? You don't want to be rude to the sales person? You really believe that this "deal" is not gonna be there tomorrow?
> Once you decide on something though it should be binding for all parties involved and there shouldn't be any cooling off periods or other protections. It's not communism afterall, you don't want a government to think for you.
> How would you like if a dealer could do the same to you? You order a car, maybe even get a great financing deal available at the time and in couple months when your car arrives your dealer tells you that he sold it to someone else because he changed his mind and they were offering more. How would you like that?


I'm starting to think that you're trolling because this is getting pretty silly... "or they're just plain stupid?" So you don't think people get worked over on the showroom floor? You are certainly naive...

Besides, the law is not there just to protect people buying $40K cars. We're not just talking about the people "here," we're talking about why the law exists. As I said before, savvy buyers who do their research don't really need the protection. But the typical car buyer is not as savvy as the people on this board, don't you think?

Just answer me this: do you think it is not uncommon for consumers to be oversold when making a car purchase, or be sold items they didn't really want or need? Ever heard of "protective coating?" 

As for your "when your car arrives your dealer tells you that he sold it to someone else because he changed his mind and they were offering more. How would you like that?" Would you believe it happens all the time? And I am sure people don't like it. If you don't believe me, check out the Mitsubishi Evo sites or the Subaru WRX STi sites. Several stories of people ordering cars, the car arrives, they go to pick it up, and it's sold to a higher bidder...

You seem to have a pretty idealistic view of the world. Time for a dose of reality...


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## djovanovi (Aug 3, 2003)

Listen ... don't worry about it so much.

The upside on the car completely outweighs the downside. 

I have the idle "problem" and it's not a big deal (although stalling would be another matter). BMW has apparently tried to meet a rigorous emissions spec and it's an ECU algorithm that's giving rise to the idle drop. 

I came to grips with it by comparing my ZHP to a Harley. Harleys have a rough idle and cost a LOT for a motorcycle but they still maintain their cache big-time ... 

My ZHP has experienced a few idle dives but EVERY time I drive into my parking garage at work, I set off at least 2-3 car alarms due to the resonant exauhst and crunchy idle ... and that's from a "luxery" car 

When the car is moving, it's AWESOME and gives you room for your peeps as well.

Chill, enjoy, be alert to any real flaws with the car by all means, but realize there won't be a car like the ZHP coming off a production line in some time once this production run ir over.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

rumratt said:


> And that is their problem!!!!!! God, what ever happened to personal responsibility. :tsk: I don't see why if you sign, it shouldn't be binding.
> 
> But in any case, it's not. And given that it's not, if you refuse the car you're doing what is within your right. I think it's kind of shady, but it is technically within your right. :dunno:


 Actually, I didn't sign anything except the credit application. I didn't even sign an order form. I was never asked to. When we finished up, I asked if she'd take a personal check for the deposit. She said that with my credit, she didn't need a deposit from me, and besides, if I didn't take the car, the dealer couldn't keep the money anyway (don't know if that's CA or Federal law).

If I just changed my mind on a whim, I'd agree that it's unethical. But as the poster above noted, and I agree, a material problem that BMW hasn't fixed and won't even admit to, despite vast evidence of its existence is in my book a valid reason.

Could it be BMW that is being shady by selling cars with known problems? That's an argument I'd buy...


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## rgzimmer (May 1, 2004)

kurichan said:


> (5) I'm going to get the car


WooHoo!!! :supdude: :drive:

Have fun with it!


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

And the saga ends happily for all involved...:guitar: 


Now search the Fest for the delivery checklist to get ideas on what to look for when you pick it up.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

kurichan said:


> BUT, if the problem does occur, he swore up and down that they'd take care of it...


Definitely, by bumping up your idle.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

kurichan said:


> (4) My car, recently manufactured, will likely not have a problem. Anecdotally, and UNOFFICIALLY, it seems that PERHAPS the cars manufactured late last year have the bulk of the idle/stall problems. REMINDER: This is NOT OFFICAL INFORMATION, so please don't go ballastic on BMW citing "what Todd said."


I have a Nov-Dec 2003 build date (I forget which month). No problems here. In fact, maybe I'll start a thread and post to it daily, "No problems today," just for the benefit of those worried about BMW reliability.


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## docrobot (Jun 23, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Some people don't consider average as bad. Scoring in the 50 percentile when I went to school meant you flunked.


50 percentile as you call it, is the average of 0 and 100. It is not he same as scoring in the middle of the pack; not the average mark or score for a range of vehicles.

Not the best metaphor that you could have come up with BGDC. Not to be personal, but I am guessing you got average marks in math, no? :dunno:


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

docrobot said:


> 50 percentile as you call it, is the average of 0 and 100. It is not he same as scoring in the middle of the pack; not the average mark or score for a range of vehicles.
> 
> Not the best metaphor that you could have come up with BGDC. Not to be personal, but I am guessing you got average marks in math, no? :dunno:


That's simply not true. Percentile is a distribution of scores to points between 1 and 100. Each of the 100 parts contains 1/100 of the total.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

(5) I'm going to get the car[/QUOTE]

Rock and Roll !

Happy Motoring,
Bob


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

kurichan said:


> That's simply not true. Percentile is a distribution of scores to points between 1 and 100. Each of the 100 parts contains 1/100 of the total.


While I'm loathe to enter this argument, I couldn't let this one slip by.

You are mistaken, kurichan, if I understand you correctly above. What you have described is simple percentage scoring, not percentile distribution. The latter is statistically known as a bin-sort.

In a sample of 100 test-takers, the lowest 10th percentile are the 10 people who scored lowest on the test, while the highest 10th percentile (a.k.a. 90th percentile) are the 10 people that scored highest. What their scores are is irrelevant -- no one out of the entire sample may have scored higher than 20% correct answers on the test. Still, those ten people that scored 20% and the next 9 highest scores (all below 20%), make up the 90th percentile of the sample group.

The lowest score in the 50th percentile represents the median -- that score for which half the poeple scored higher, and half scored lower.

Knowing one's percentile on any ranking doesn't tell you anything qualitatively about their performance relative to what they are being ranked on -- it only indicated their performance relative to other people they are being compared against.


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## gr8330 (Mar 31, 2002)

RKT BMR said:


> While I'm loathe to enter this argument, I couldn't let this one slip by.
> 
> You are mistaken, kurichan, if I understand you correctly above. What you have described is simple percentage scoring, not percentile distribution. The latter is statistically known as a bin-sort.
> 
> ...


 :wow:


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

RKT BMR said:


> While I'm loathe to enter this argument, I couldn't let this one slip by.
> 
> You are mistaken, kurichan, if I understand you correctly above. What you have described is simple percentage scoring, not percentile distribution.


Before we go any further, I strongly suggest checking with your handy dandy statistics reference or text book, then we'll chat...

What I have described is not simple percentage scoring, nor is it incorrect.

A clarification which doesn't change what I said: a "percentile" is one of the actual points along the distribution to which I referred.

By the way, to really stir things up, there is no hard and fast correct definition of percentile, only certain definitions that are more accepted than others. Check around. It's an interesting debate.


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

RKT BMR said:


> While I'm loathe to enter this argument, I couldn't let this one slip by.
> 
> You are mistaken, kurichan, if I understand you correctly above. What you have described is simple percentage scoring, not percentile distribution. The latter is statistically known as a bin-sort.
> 
> ...


You are correct. And stated as well as can be stated.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

kurichan said:


> That's simply not true. Percentile is a distribution of scores to points between 1 and 100. Each of the 100 parts contains 1/100 of the total.





RKT BMR said:


> While I'm loathe to enter this argument, I couldn't let this one slip by.
> 
> You are mistaken, kurichan, if I understand you correctly above. What you have described is simple percentage scoring, not percentile distribution. The latter is statistically known as a bin-sort.


If you read *kurichan*'s post again carefully, you're both describing the same (correct) idea, even though *kurichan* didn't say so directly in the follow-up to your post. Most of the posts in this thread about percentiles come down to people not being explicit in their definitions and usage of "total" and "percent" and "score" and everyone just misunderstanding each other.

In any case, when you encounter percentile in the real-world, it is generally used in the sense of if you score in X-percentile, [100-X]% of all other test takers performed better than you, and you performed better than X% of all other test takers. 50th percentile is, like *RKT BMR* said, the median score.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

RKT BMR said:


> Well, technically, this is the "pneumatics" -- brake and steering assist are powered by engine vacuum.
> 
> Pedantry can be fun...


A little oops here, I think. 

Power brakes are powered by engine vacuum, but power steering is powered by a hydraulic pump.


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## 330Legend (Feb 9, 2004)

kurichan said:


> Not kidding.
> 
> Do I really want a $43,000 car that idles rough, stalls and has a flat spot in the powerband?
> 
> ...


Buyers remorse. You have made a major decision and like many a groom before his wedding day, your having second thoughts. It's normal. No car is perfect. Yours will be fine. You made your commitment, now go with it.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

GregD said:


> A little oops here, I think.
> 
> Power brakes are powered by engine vacuum, but power steering is powered by a hydraulic pump.


Absolutely correct. My credibility has now been shattered :yikes:


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

rumratt said:


> The score you describe can never exist.
> 
> :stickpoke
> 
> Edit: (The number can exist, but not as one of the test scores... god this disussion is a waste of time.  ).


It gets even more confusing when the sample size is an odd number.

What does "half" mean in this case?


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

RKT BMR said:


> It gets even more confusing when the sample size is an odd number.
> 
> What does "half" mean in this case?


The person in the middle has Solomon's wisdom applied? :dunno:


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

GregD said:


> The person in the middle has Solomon's wisdom applied? :dunno:


Let me direct everyone to

http://mathforum.org/


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

I majored in math in college, and I have to say that this thread has become quite amusing.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

TLudwig said:


> I majored in math in college, and I have to say that this thread has become quite amusing.


And then you chose law?


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

swchang said:


> And then you chose law?


Yeah, that first semester of law school was pretty rough with the huge adjustment in my way of thinking. Math and the law are almost the antithesis of each other in some ways (math almost always has a discrete right or wrong answer while the law is almost always relative). However, they are very similar in that they both involve a logical progression from a set of given facts and assumptions to a final conclusion/result, guided by a framework of rules/laws.

I say we see just how far astray we can take this thread before it is moved to OT...


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

TLudwig said:


> Math and the law are almost the antithesis of each other in some ways (math almost always has a discrete right or wrong answer while the law is almost always relative).


Well, you could drag in statistics, which is subjective/relative/philosophical things quantified.


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

OT -  


169 replies - what is the record? We could go for that.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

BloodRedHog said:


> OT -
> 
> 169 replies - what is the record? We could go for that.


I think either the original word associations thread or the alee sucks thread probably holds the records for replies and views. Well, maybe Stuka's Savage sucks thread holds the one for views, actually.


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