# Are there any truly Desirable BMW's left?



## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Sure, the Cooper S counts. It's cool, but I have a hard time drooling over them while thinking about being sent into the next dimension when an Escalade hits it!


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Desertnate said:


> Now, I just sit and read the magazines...


You and me, both! It's almost as fun as a trip to the dentist.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2004)

atyclb said:


> well, he _did_ specifically say "produced by BMW"


 Yeah, unfortunate choice of words on my part since I'm pretty sure I'd drool over BMW motorcycles too if I knew more about them.

But the BMW automobile line up leaves me cold.

I get more excited at an Audi dealership (S4.... drool...). Hell, I get more excited at a VW dealership (R32.... drool...).


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> I get more excited at an Audi dealership (S4.... drool...).


I really can't see you enjoying the S4 any more than the E46 M3 though


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2004)

atyclb said:


> I really can't see you enjoying the S4 any more than the E46 M3 though


 Maybe. The drive (while boring) isn't the problem with the E46 M3. The lack of doors is. Audi offers the S4 in sedan or wagon form. If there was an M3 sedan or Touring, I might be able to say that there is ONE BMW that I'm interested in.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

Scorp76 said:


> There are plenty of "desirable" BMW's left, to some of us. A lot of us think they look better now, then they did in the 90's when they were like a small, medium, large, and extra-large corn dog (no visual distinction other than size).


Well, this is the interesting thing...

BMW loses a majority of their loyal followers under the assumption that the propeller badge means everything, and a little design controversy is nothing. But they gain a totally new kind of customer, which appears to be generally younger, and more receptive to dramatic change, and has less ties to the "old" BMW.

For me, BMW has ruined their perfect formula. For me, my first BMW will probably turn out to be my last BMW. BMW has gotten arrogant with their design philosophy, and they have chosen to ignore countless negative reviews in favor of some unknown and IMHO, misdirected mission. For every one line of praise I read about this new generation of BMWs, I read a paragraph or more of complaints.

The end will be when the next generation E90 3-series fails to appear in the annual car magazine 10-Best, All Star, etc. special issues. BMWs used to be distinctive in a good way. Contrary to what you say, it wasn't the old generation that was the "corn dog"... it's the new generation, which is reaching towards the mainstream and IMHO, fails to deliver that special something that me want to wander into a dealership and beg for a test drive.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

alee said:


> But they gain a totally new kind of customer, which appears to be generally younger, and more receptive to dramatic change, and has less ties to the "old" BMW.


I have to disagree. Most of the people I hear complaining about new BMWs are those who own the almost-new BMWs - the E36s and E46s. I know of a number of the old-school BMW fans who like the new designs. I think the E30 is the best-looking of the 3ers, and I like the new designs. A guy who had several E28s and E30s mentioned in my ear at a track event that, although he never got into the Z3, the Z4 is really sexy to him...

New customers are a good thing, and a MUST for a big car company like BMW, but I think their record of turning off old buyers is no different than their record of turning off E30 owners with the E36, turning off E36 owners with the E46, turning off E34 owners with the E39... etc.


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## vexed (Dec 22, 2001)

alee said:


> Well, this is the interesting thing...
> 
> BMW loses a majority of their loyal followers under the assumption that the propeller badge means everything, and a little design controversy is nothing..


From today's Autoweek

Bangle has had the backing of the BMW management board throughout his turbulent tenure.

But he prefers talking about the future to talking about the past. At the moment, he's thinking a lot about China, where BMW just opened an assembly plant.

Bangle is intrigued to see what kinds of vehicles Chinese customers will want.

He believes the future of car design is evolving rapidly in the face of new technology, relentless competition, and ever more sophisticated consumers.

"We've gone through three major phases in the 100 odd years of personal motor vehicle that changed the look and feel of cars. We could easily be entering a new fourth phase. But, we have to get this industry focused on how to make cars differently. And, I'm saying this not just so that designers can have new toys to play with. I'm saying this because the demands of our customers are so high and the demands of the marketplace are so intense."


 

*******>
********>


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

vexed said:


> "But, we have to get this industry focused on how to make cars differently. And, I'm saying this not just so that designers can have new toys to play with. I'm saying this because the demands of our customers are so high and the demands of the marketplace are so intense."


Do we? And focused on whose vision and direction...his?  Please... :thumbdwn:


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

The Roadstergal said:


> New customers are a good thing, and a MUST for a big car company like BMW, but I think their record of turning off old buyers is no different than their record of turning off E30 owners with the E36, turning off E36 owners with the E46, turning off E34 owners with the E39... etc.


There are those who are resistant to all change, and there are those that welcome some change with each generation as long the overall vision of the brand is intact.

What makes a car instantly desired? BMW used to have the traits that fulfilled that "desired" quality (great looks, great performance, a healthy balance of innovative options and just the right amount of throwbacks to tradition to remind you of its heritage). The unusual quirks with the brand were mocked, but the strength of the brand generally remained intact. What I see now is a not what I saw with the E30 to E36 design, or the E36 to E46 design.

People generally don't like change, and when familiar things are modified, people tend to resist them unless there is good reason for the change. For many I-Drive did not represent a necessary change... it was a sign that as a manufacturer, BMW was trying to introduce too many new features into a car that weren't necessary. It represented a new interface and a new level of complexity that many weren't ready for.

For others, the design changes were dramatic for the sake of being different, and started to affect things like interior ergonomics, and exterior design while losing a lot of what was familiar with BMW exteriors.

I certainly do not argue that new customers are a good thing, but I see for the first time BMW owners actively cross-shopping other brands. Other brands have gotten competitive, whereas BMW seems content to rely on its name to perform its own sales.

It seems like a lot of them are going to the other brands too. But that's just a casual observation.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

The Roadstergal said:


> Most of the people I hear complaining about new BMWs are those who own the almost-new BMWs - the E36s and E46s.


Because they see the danger coming, that's why.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

TD said:


> If there was an M3 sedan or Touring, I might be able to say that there is ONE BMW that I'm interested in.


Looks like Cadillac is making the M3 sedan!


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

vexed said:


> Bangle is intrigued to see what kinds of vehicles Chinese customers will want.


Reading between the lines: "Bangle is intrigued to see if Chinese customers will want to buy ugly cars!"


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

The Roadstergal said:


> I have to disagree. Most of the people I hear complaining about new BMWs are those who own the almost-new BMWs - the E36s and E46s. I know of a number of the old-school BMW fans who like the new designs. I think the E30 is the best-looking of the 3ers, and I like the new designs. A guy who had several E28s and E30s mentioned in my ear at a track event that, although he never got into the Z3, the Z4 is really sexy to him...
> 
> New customers are a good thing, and a MUST for a big car company like BMW, but I think their record of turning off old buyers is no different than their record of turning off E30 owners with the E36, turning off E36 owners with the E46, turning off E34 owners with the E39... etc.


Untill now I have always loved BMW's. My first experience was in the early '80's with an E21 (?) 318 and later an E30 320 owned by a friends parents. I drooled over the 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8 series growing up. I fell in love with the first E36 I saw and the first E36 M3 was amazing. I was smitten by the Z3 when it was in the Bond film and again when the 740 debued on the big screen. My first glimpse of an E46 in a magazine took my breath away, because I was now at a stage in life where I could own one of the most beautiful BMW's I had ever set eyes on. I was a lover of all things BMW.

Now that the Z4, 5er, 7er, 6er, and X3 are on the market, I could care less. Rather than staring as they drive by, I don't even take a second look. I don't care too much for any of them (though the E60 is growing on me) and I find myself taken by designs of many other makers. All of the electronic gimmacry does nothing for me either...

As a fan for 20 years and an owner for 5, I am sorely dissapointed in my favorite car maker because my first love has turned into a toad.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Dave 330i said:


> The E46 (330i) is the best 3 series ever built.


... other than the steering!


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

JPinTO said:


> ... other than the steering!


For those of us who bought '99s that was never an issue...neither was the throttle by wire or possibly even the CDV. :angel:


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

alee said:


> BMW used to have the traits that fulfilled that "desired" quality (great looks, great performance, a healthy balance of innovative options and just the right amount of throwbacks to tradition to remind you of its heritage). The unusual quirks with the brand were mocked, but the strength of the brand generally remained intact. What I see now is a not what I saw with the E30 to E36 design, or the E36 to E46 design.





Dave 330i said:


> The E46 (330i) is the best 3 series ever built. It combines performance with luxury. I hope BMW listened (no Bangle influences, and no i-Drive) and that I am looking forward to trading my 330i for the E90. I don't care about the other models. The 3 series is what BMW is all about.


It's isolated, heavy, and ugly.

You see? When the changes are made to a car you like, they're in keeping with the brand. If you happen not to like them, they are suddenly un-BMW. 

<img src=http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24184>


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2004)

JPinTO said:


> ... other than the steering!


 and the throttle delay.... and the clutch vagueness.... and the engine fan fires... and the lack of an available LSD...


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2004)

JPinTO said:


> Looks like Cadillac is making the M3 sedan!


 Yup. Or as I said, Audi (with the S4).


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

The Roadstergal said:


> If you happen not to like them, they are suddenly un-BMW.


Isn't this normal ? :dunno:

It is not that we suddenly do not like them, we don't like them, because they LOOK un-BMW


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

alee said:


> I don't think it's shallow at all. You don't just buy handling. You buy a total package. You have to wake up and live with the looks of your new car every day. You have to sit inside the cockpit everyday, and use the controls.
> 
> It can drive great, but if the ergonomics suck, I'm the one who loses. It can outhandle others in its class, but if I can't stand how it looks, it won't find a place in my garage.
> 
> ...


:stupid:

For me, styling is one of the factors that gets me to look at a car in the first place. I could care less what other people think about the car I drive, but I do care. I don't want to buy that makes me look away when I see it in my drive way. The interior is the biggest issue for me. I could probably get around the exteriors if the interior of the new models were better. The current rejection of ergonomics and function as well as a decline in material quality is what has dissapointed me most. Like Alee said, it I don't like the way it feels and looks inside, why would I want to spend long periods of time there. I spend enough time in a place I don't find appealing, my cube at work, why would I want to continue that trend with my car. The whole gizmo trend with I-Drive is another dead horse that we have already beat to death.

I plan on holding on to my E46 for a while. Hopefully by the time I do get ready to replace it, this current silliness at BMW will have passed and the next generation of cars will be better...I really don't want to buy a 10-year old E39 in order to stay in the BMW fold.


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## ///M-Spec (Jun 3, 2004)

TD said:


> Dude, the Z4 is a fat pig. It may be more competent but it's less fun to drive. Throw in the M54 throttle lag and numb clutch and the numb suspension and you have a fast pig. Just like the current M3.
> 
> And the Z4 may be the single ugliest car currently in production. Bar none. And that kind of ugly *can* override whatever good there is in how it performs. However, in this case, the performance is uninspiring as well. "Fun" is more than simply numbers.


Fat pig? It weighs the same as a Z3 3.0 and still less than an M Roadster. Fat pig compared to a Lotus Elise, perhaps but not compared to other BMW roadsters.

Fun to drive I suppose is subjective. But if you are implying the Z4 is somehow a step back from the dynamic train wreck that is the Z3, I really have to wonder how you'd arrive at that conclusion. If fun means overboosted steering, poor body control and snap oversteer to you, then have at it.

And at no time did I reduce the essense of my argument to "simply numbers". You will not find me magazine racing here. I have driven the new cars the way they were meant to be driven and I found the BMW spirit alive and well in them.


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## Bruce128iC (Feb 16, 2003)

Sure, the new 645ci convertible is stunning! I want one! :thumbup:


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

I am _*STILL*_ waiting for someone on here to present a viable alternative design that is an evolution of the old designs. :tsk:

I mean, really. Someone show me how you could round off the car more, add more weight, take more feel out of the steering, etc., etc. etc.

Not only are the new cars a fresh new dynamic in styling, but they flat out kick the crap out of the older cars as far as performance in concerned. My Z4 will kick up on just about every stock BMW out there on the track (save maybe the E46 M3 due to long straights) and I have a blast doing it! Several instructors drove my car and each commented on how it was a true driver's cockpit, position, feel, steering wheel, etc. Each positively commented on the aggressive styling (and they drive Porsches, Audi's and Z06's).

So, I guess you guys are willing to give up BMW performance for a nicer outward appearance. OK. :thumbup:

But please show me a "next generation" E46 or E39 that isn't rounded into an Audi. Thanks.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

///M-Spec said:


> The styling the only way to judge a BMW?


I'm sure the new models handle superbly. It's the styling which makes a car unique. Most modern art is of a confrontational nature ... either you love it or hate it. Hence the polar opinions on this board since Bangle has chosed this path for BMW. Bangle is betting that car artwork will generate more sales than it will offend. Personally I wouldn't develop a product which offends return customers. Repeat business is a long term strategy.


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

I must be right in BMW's target market, because I like 'em all. In fact, I didn't really like anything from BMW until the 8er, and then skipping until the E38/39/46, when I thought their designs finally "caught up."

I think the Z4 is far-and-away a more handsome car than the Z3.

I'm not impressed by any of the alternative Japanese offerings like the G35 (interior is more cramped than my 330 was), or the TL (FWD, enough said), or any Lexus model, really.

Audi's designs are totally boring to me; they lack definition in their lines. The new A6 is just an amorphous blob with a huge gaping mouth. The A4 is just a mini-A6, and the A8 is a maxi-A6. I never "got" the TT; it looks just a squished VW new-Beetle.

In summary, all the new bimmers are desirable to me.

-MrB


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Jayhox said:


> I am _*STILL*_ waiting for someone on here to present a viable alternative design that is an evolution of the old designs. :tsk:
> 
> I mean, really. Someone show me how you could round off the car more, add more weight, take more feel out of the steering, etc., etc. etc.


Porsche 993 --> Porsche 996 --> Porsche 997

Back to the basics. The headlight treatment on the 996 sucked so much that they had to go back to the 993 design. 

*Porsche 993*









*Porsche 996*









*Porsche 997*


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

THE BMWolvo E90  Progress


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

I see the E39 right there. (You might have to squint and "unfocus" your eyes. It will appear eventually.)


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

Yeah, who wants "Bangle Butt" when you can have this? (Maybe I should rephrase that.)


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

THE NEW E90!!! Rounder = Better :rofl:


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

///M-Spec said:


> Frankly, I find this a bit shallow. Supposed fellow BMW enthusiasts dismiss an entire generation of cars, and most of them haven't even driven one. The styling the only way to judge a BMW?
> 
> If you're hung up on styling, let me pass on something. There's a place down the street where they have cars much better looking than the E46s and E39s you revere. There have four interlocked rings on the sign and they also happen to come from Germany.


What a load of BS... why the heck is it shallow for BMW owners to criticize the design direction of the current cars? I do not care for the traditional BMW European design morphing into current Japanese design trends so I give my opinion.


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## ///M-Spec (Jun 3, 2004)

alee said:


> I don't think it's shallow at all. You don't just buy handling. You buy a total package.


And that's fine. If you decide a car is too ugly to buy, its your business. I've no problem with that.

But my point is people are ready to assume the newer cars have NO MERIT in the legacy of cars that came before them. The people who say "New BMWs suck. The older ones were so much better," and all they've done was look at a picture in a magazine and decide the car must be crap because it looks like crap. This is the attitude I find shallow.

And there are plenty of ugly cars out there I find truly desirable. Evo's and STi's are butt-ugly, but no true enthusiast would argue they are not desirable cars.


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## ///M-Spec (Jun 3, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> What a load of BS... why the heck is it shallow for BMW owners to criticize the design direction of the current cars? I do not care for the traditional BMW European design morphing into Japanese design trends so give my opinion.


Let me make something clear. I'm not saying it is shallow for you to feel a design is ugly. I'm saying it is shallow to pass judgement on the entire car because it is ugly. What it tells me is that some people are not interested in anything other than how the car looks; that the appearance is first and foremost the most important aspect of the car. Given that we're talking about "The Ultimate Driving Machine", I would think the rest of the car beneath the sheet metal might deserve some attention.

If this is BS to you, then sorry. I'm giving my opinion same as you.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> The headlight treatment on the 996 sucked so much that they had to go back to the 993 design.


 :bawling:

And 997 front end looks like a Bug, not like a 993


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

///M-Spec said:


> Let me make something clear. I'm not saying it is shallow for you to feel a design is ugly. I'm saying it is shallow to pass judgement on the entire car because it is ugly. What it tells me is that some people are not interested in anything other than how the car looks; that the appearance is first and foremost the most important aspect of the car. Given that we're talking about "The Ultimate Driving Machine", I would think the rest of the car beneath the sheet metal might deserve some attention.
> 
> If this is BS to you, then sorry. I'm giving my opinion same as you.


 I'm sure the newer cars do out-perform the older generation, and in some cases, may even be more fun to drive. But, its interesting that many owners of the newest BMWs seem to have "gotten past" the styling because they liked the perfromance of the car. That's great-- but it makes me think BMW could've done even better by not changing the designs and just making hardware improvements. . Also, if you don't care about styling at all, why not buy an EVO or an Impreza? If you like the styling AND performacne of the new cars- that's great; you're getting the whole package. ITs that sense of "completeness" that some of us are missing in the newer cars. I honestly find the Subie and Mitsu just as ugly as the e60/65/z4.

I could think of ways that they could've evolved the e46/39 exterior and interior without making it ugly.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Jayhox said:


> My Z4 will kick up on just about every stock BMW out there on the track


You'll have to wait for M Z4 to make a statement like that  :angel:


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

robg said:


> I could think of ways that they could've evolved the e46/39 exterior and interior without making it ugly.


Please do. I am not trying to be a smartass. I honestly want to see some renditions of what the new generations should look like to appease the "traditionalists". I also realize that photoshop is not a simple talent.


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## KU Ned (Apr 23, 2003)

Jayhox said:


> THE NEW E90!!! Rounder = Better :rofl:


I don't think anyone is saying BMW needs to continue to round off the cars. In fact, the basic shape of the e90, e60 and e65/66 are not all that bad. What I question and I think many in this thread question is why does BMW now have to do goofy/trendy things with the headlights and tailights. Why screw up the e65 7-series (eyebrows), e60 5-series (squint) and e90 3-series (misfit turn signal) and to a lesser extent the new 1-series (SURPRISE) with strange headlights? I liked the general resemblence of the line of cars from the 70's into the early 00's. Mercedes was somewhat radical with the round headlights it came out with in the mid 90's but at least there was tradition (large round headlights of the 70's and 80's) and well thought out design. The new BMW's look like the designer tried too hard and ended up with a mess.

My biggest problem with the new BMW's is the interior layout, I-drive and quality. I like the driver positon of the Z4 but the other cars make me feel like I am driving a first generation front-wheel drive GM product (think mid-80's Oldsmobile) the only thing missing from the e60 and e90 is the long sweeping speedometer.

I personally never thought any non-black e36 interior looked finished. The plastic around the vents was black and IMHO didn't match the interior. The e46 was the first 3-series to match the interior quality of comparable MB and Audi cars. Quality wise, the interior of the X3 feels cheap and is downright horrible in my opinion. The e60 feels cheap to me as well and from the pics Baumann posted of the e90, it also looks cheap. I fear BMW is taking a step backwards with the interiors.

Interior and exterior wise, the new BMW's are trendy. Trendy may sell well today but rarely becomes a classic. By classic I mean a car that looks as good in 10 years as it did new. Mercedes has this aspect of design down to an art. A late 80's 300E looks as good today as it did when it was sold. I believe the 2002, e21, e30 and e36 all still look good today. I think the e46 will look good in the future. I am not sure about the new BMW's (particularly the interiors).


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Jayhox said:


> Please do. I am not trying to be a smartass. I honestly want to see some renditions of what the new generations should look like to appease the "traditionalists". I also realize that photoshop is not a simple talent.


Just some thoughts from a guy who's "okay" with the new trend... I even like the 7er 









1) Get rid of that "desert dune" on the top part of the dash.
2) Keep driver oriented center console, there's nothing ergonomically wrong with it and it has been a defining feature in BMW cockpits for the last few generations
3) Get rid of the dawg awful steering wheel, c'mon, "old" 3 spoke is perfection itself
4) That cubby whole under the HVAC controls... even E46 had a lid on it
5) Window switches placement... I realize E39 placement is not much better, but this is just ridiculous

Increase the quality of materials... or at least keep it at E39 level. The feel of plastic in my E39 M is way above what current models offer, imho.









1) Give the top right side of the dash at least SOME kink or defining feature, it looks like a featureless blob
2) Get rid of the swelling in the middle of the dash :eeps: 
3) At least the steering wheel here isn't that scary...
4) Give us back some steering wheel feel!

Do that, and I personally would find the interiors more attractive :dunno:


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## ///M-Spec (Jun 3, 2004)

robg said:


> I'm sure the newer cars do out-perform the older generation, and in some cases, may even be more fun to drive. But, its interesting that many owners of the newest BMWs seem to have "gotten past" the styling because they liked the perfromance of the car. That's great-- but it makes me think BMW could've done even better by not changing the designs and just making hardware improvements. . Also, if you don't care about styling at all, why not buy an EVO or an Impreza? If you like the styling AND performacne of the new cars- that's great; you're getting the whole package. ITs that sense of "completeness" that some of us are missing in the newer cars. I honestly find the Subie and Mitsu just as ugly as the e60/65/z4.


No doubt BMW would have done much better in the short term by keep the redesigns more conservative. But in the long term, I think the board made the right call to make a big departure from the "multi length sausage" idiom. The only way to retain a strong brand visual identity was to do something daring enough, no one else would try it.

And its not that I don't care about the design at all. For the record, I dislike the new 7, am lukewarm about the Z4 and love the new 5 and 6. But Like alee said, you buy a total package. And for now, BMW still makes one of the best total packages in the business. I test drove both the Evo and STi before I order the ZHP. They are great cars, but too hardcore and uncompromising for my daily use.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

i know just what you mean - visiting a BMW dealership used to be a rush - go sit in an E39, drool over the M3, bow down to the M5.

Today, you have to walk through the showroom with blinders on to avoid burn-in.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

///M-Spec said:


> no one comments on how they drive, only how they look.


Your new here, so we'll cut you some slack--- It's a BMW board... they drive well. Next.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

///M-Spec said:


> And there are plenty of ugly cars out there I find truly desirable. Evo's and STi's are butt-ugly, but no true enthusiast would argue they are not desirable cars.


They may be desirable if you have no other options. It *USED* to be that you could have your performance AND styling in the same package... at a premium price. Why buy a butt-ugly BMW when you can buy a butt-ugly something else and save the money?


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Just came back from lunch and saw a black E60 545. It has presence and the black hides alot of the lines. Pretty muscular overall, except for the butt, which has to be ignored. 

Saw a black Z4 also--- unfortunately, the lines are less and less appealing to me as I see it more and more. Even black can't help much with it. No doubt it drives great.... it better!


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## ///M-Spec (Jun 3, 2004)

JPinTO said:


> Your new here, so we'll cut you some slack--- It's a BMW board... they drive well. Next.


Sounds to me like a polite way of saying "shadup, newguy." That's fine; I don't expect a warm round of applause for my earlier comments. :eeps:



JPinTO said:


> They may be desirable if you have no other options.


Well if you have no other options that would make them mandatory and therefore desire is irrelevant. I'd say they are desirable even in the presence of their competition..



JPinTO said:


> Why buy a butt-ugly BMW when you can buy a butt-ugly something else and save the money?


That is a quandry only you can answer. I know I am in the minority, but I decline to see the new BMWs are butt-ugly. Well, maybe the 7. But the 5 and 6 are very much to my taste.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Rost-

Agree w/ your comments regarding the interior changes that are necessary. There were plenty of ways BW could've modernized the interiors without making a totla mess.

Jayhox-

Unfortunatley, my photoshop skills aren't quite up to snuff. Let me try and describe what i would do. Like Rost and JP, I think the basic shape of the e60 and 65 is ok. ITs the details that make them ugly.

e60
-Hood shutline should not bow-out so much into the side panels. Intersection of front fender, hood and A pillar should be done like it was on the e39 (and i've noticed increasing amounts of Japanese cars doing it that way). 
-Less front overhang-- this car looks like it could be FWD. The e39 had a fair amount too, so they could both stand improvement hear
-Front-- keep the grilles as part of the hood. Mercedes, Audi and other makes whose grille is 1 rectangualr piece can get away with making the grille part of the bumper. BMW, with its kidneys, cannot-- they should continue the e46/39 theme of having the hood incorporate the griles. While on th esubject of kidneys, make them less blobbish. THe e60's have deformed to an extent that is just not attractive.
-(Obvious) lose the eyebrows. IF I had to pick just 1 thing to change, this would be it 
-rear-- go back to a conventional shutline and ditch the funky tail lamps.

NOw, I actually might be able to get over all of the above if the interior wasn't so bad. If they fixed the interior, I might be able to squint enough to get somewhat interested in the car. Rost has already hit upon the most glaring defects-- namely the double-hump, the steering wheel and the overall quality. THe door panels are also ridiculous and the window switch placement is awkward.

e65
I actually like the exterior of this slightly more than the e60. THe side profile is ok. They just need to re-do the front without eyebrows (which they're doing) and incorporate the grilles into the hood (which they're not for cost reasons). THe rear obviously needs major surgery. It will help when they get rid of the ridiculous horizontal reflector strip.

Interior (same comments as e60 and Rost).

z4:
-lost the slash on the side
-lose the hump on the runk
-make the tail lights a bit less funky-


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

///M-Spec said:


> I know I am in the minority. . . .


Maybe on this, but I don't think so in the grand scheme of things. Notice that the only vocal people are the detractors (just like in any aspect of life). Most people I have talked to like the new designs.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

///M-Spec said:


> But the 5 and 6 are very much to my taste.


I am glad that somebody finds them desirable. 

Don't you find the butts even a little ugly?


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Jayhox said:


> Maybe on this, but I don't think so in the grand scheme of things. Notice that the only vocal people are the detractors (just like in any aspect of life). Most people I have talked to like the new designs.


Well get more of those "people" you know to voice their postive reviews. :dunno:


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

JPinTO said:


> Don't you find the butts even a little ugly?


I don't. In the metal, the E60 trunk area isn't that much different than the E39. The cut-lines are down the sides in response to E39 owners' complaints that the trunk opening was too narrow to fit anything in, like a golf bag or large suitcase.

In photographs from the side, the cut-line makes the back-end look a little droopy, and in 2D, the trunk does look like it kinda just goes straight back from the C-pillar; but in 3D, the trunk's integrated lip-spoiler raises it up just enough, and from the C-pillar rearward, the "planform" of the vehicle piches in nicely.

There's a shot of the E60 from almost directly overhead in the brochure that I have (it's on page 3 or 4) that really illustrates this.

From the rear, the E39 and E60 look almost identical.

-MrB


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Golf bag  That's the new marketing hype from BMW. How did people carry their golf bags before the E60 ? :dunno: 

I know people who are playing golf on this board, they are carrying their golf bags in an E46, and I haven't heard them complaining yet.


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## Nbtstatic (Oct 9, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> Well get more of those "people" you know to voice their postive reviews. :dunno:


Love the current models, also love the new models. 

Nb


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> Golf bag  That's the new marketing hype from BMW. How did people carry their golf bags before the E60 ? :dunno:
> 
> I know people who are playing golf on this board, they are carrying their golf bags in an E46, and I haven't heard them complaining yet.


I'll start complaining when the Elise comes


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> Golf bag  That's the new marketing hype from BMW. How did people carry their golf bags before the E60 ? :dunno:
> 
> I know people who are playing golf on this board, they are carrying their golf bags in an E46, and I haven't heard them complaining yet.


I play golf, too, alot, and my E46 trunk was barely wide enough to fit just my bag (a lightweight walking/stand bag, not one of those monstrous 11in diameter staff bags) in, much less a whole foursome's worth of bags.

What I find ironic is how BMW is being villified by some simply for responding to complaints that they received from owners.

Not to be argumentative, but if one of the complaints from owners was that they couldn't get 4 golf bags in the trunk of their car, how would you propose solving that problem without drastically changing the "bounding box" of the cars geometry? Seems to me that widening the trunk opening the way they did was a pretty ingenious solution.

-MrB


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> I'll start complaining when the Elise comes


:bigpimp:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

mrbelk said:


> I play golf, too, alot, and my E46 trunk was barely wide enough to fit just my bag (a lightweight walking/stand bag, not one of those monstrous 11in diameter staff bags) in, much less a whole foursome's worth of bags.
> 
> What I find ironic is how BMW is being villified by some simply for responding to complaints that they received from owners.
> 
> ...


This is something we can never agree on. To some of us (including me), the new designs that are coming from Designworks, is not saying much.

I'm not moron, I do understand what Bangle is trying to say, when he explains his designs. But for me, it is over with the love at the first sight. No, I don't want Bangle to touch the old designs. I want them to remain as beautiful cars in my memory.

You can give me seven 6 Series for free (one color for each day in the week), I wouldn't trade it for a 1972 3.0 CSi. Never.


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## ///M-Spec (Jun 3, 2004)

JPinTO said:


> I am glad that somebody finds them desirable.
> 
> Don't you find the butts even a little ugly?


A little. Mostly on the 7, where it is not integrated at all with the rest of the car. The 6 gets away with it because it looks like a 911 with an add-on whale tail. Can it look better? Yes. Do I mind it? Not really.. the rest of the car is very good.

Its about perfect on the 5. The E60 is selling well in my town and I see a lot of them on the road. It looks gorgeous to me, butt and all. The ZHP will do nicely for now, but a 545i is my target car in 4-5 years.

The Z4 butt is very nice :thumbup:


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> The E46 is still in the second place in the sales charts, right behind the VW Golf. But the E36 and E46 dudes are not happy with the styling gags on the E60. In the media, the new interior is getting a lot of heat. *The disappearing of the driver oriented cockpit, the separate dash/middle console combo and the material quality is where it gets the most critic.*


You can add another critic... :eeps:

To be honest, the new designs are not that bad IMO, just unfinished in some areas. Some combinations of colors, trim and wheels can take care of this new styling direction. Some 5, 6, 7 and Z's actually look pretty impressive on certain dark colors and nice rims.

However, their interiors are too much to handle for me and not the "bangle butt" or the "eyebrows". There is some serious cost cutting in all the new designs interiors, even in the 6 and 7 series. The dash material composition is not the same as the E46 much less the E39, the details are not well done (like the comment above about the center console cubbyhole in the E60) and overall quality and feel of the plastics; it seems to me that we are back to the E36 interior era. IMO what makes this interior cost cutting worse is not the material used per se but the overall design vision. It is just lame and lackluster...

If you tell me that these cars sell for $20-$30,000 I would not care this much, but they are not. They are $40-$100,000 cars and simple expectations can't just be ignored.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Nbtstatic said:


> Love the current models, also love the new models.
> 
> Nb


Hey, I thought the only vocal people are the detractors?


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