# RFT v Non-RFT - What is BMW's tire philosophy?



## ronbo335 (Aug 22, 2016)

Hi All,
I have a question that will likely elicit a massive range of responses and, I don't really expect an actual answer, so this is more of a rhetorical post. But, perhaps there is someone out there who is close enough to the product engineers at BMW to help shed some light on a question I've been wondering about since I purchased my 2013 F30 335 xDrive M-Sport sedan. Then I wondered again with our 2014 F30 328i M-Sport and now, find myself again scratching my head with the 2019 X3 M40i (20" wheel pkg) I just picked up a few months ago. My question is, what is BMW's tire philosophy when it comes to run flat tires (rft's) versus non-run flat tires?

So a few foundational assumptions:

BMW seeks to be the "ultimate driving machine" (admittedly interpreting this slogan is highly subjective)
BMW exercises significant effort in selecting the best tire for any given vehicle and it's intended purpose
Tires are like opinions...you know how that goes!
Most of us are not fans of rft's for various reasons, mostly centering around ride quality, noise, and/or wear
Safety is a primary concern
Eliminating the spare saves space and money for the mfg
Perhaps I've left some key ones off so feel free to comment on that issue alone. However, I've come to the conclusion that BMW has a very different set of criterion for selecting the best tire for a vehicle than do I. 

This strikes me as odd as I generally love their cars well beyond that of any other brand...and I've owned a wide variety including: Audi, Mazda, Acura, Honda, Subaru, and Nissan. Chief among the reason for this love is the way they are engineered and the resulting driving experience.

All 3 of my BMW's (335, 328 & X3) had rft's as the OE tire. When buying new you can likely opt for something else, but I almost exclusively look for 1-3 year old cars with low miles (under 15k). The 335 had Pirelli P7 Cinturato rft's, the 328 had Conti ContiSport rft's (these may have not been the OE tire as that car had aftermarket wheels) and the X3 had, until today, the Bridgestone Alenza 001 rft's.

In each case, in my opinion, the rft's wore quickly, were noisy, harsh and brittle riding. The only significant factor in my mind to fit these rft's is the last "assumption", safety. I believe this is a critical decision point and, if/when my wife drives our car, especially if out of our immediate vicinity, I believe that rft's do provide a margin of safety and security for her. However that situation is very rare. Also, very rare, flats. I can't recall the last time I had one that disabled me on the side of the road. Typically it's a nail that causes a slow leak that I can get repaired without being stranded. Additionally, I have road side service if ever needed. And, anecdotally, I frequently hear that if you do get a flat with rft's you then have the added challenge of getting to a shop that has your tire available and probably at least two (since it's not best practice to just replace one), and that will be quite an expensive tire to boot! Repairing a RFT, I don't believe, is possible but not certain about this aspect but it likely depends on the location and size of leak, just as it does on a standard tire.

As a result, I've changed out the run flats on each car at my first reasonable opportunity. I'm too cheap to just immediately replace them so I typically have driven on the rft's for some period of time before replacing. And each time I've done this, I've wondered why I waited so long to do it! Admittedly I replace them with either Michelin Pilot Sport or Conti DWS's which both I've found to be excellent tires, but the improvement is massive and immediately noticeable, I mean before I leave the damn parking lot!

The non-rft's are quieter and have more supple, damped feeling, but with no reduction in ultimate grip or handling traits. My X3 in particular was extremely harsh riding, and tramlined like crazy, pretty much sucked in heavy rain and, due to the temperature range and selection of a summer tire for an SUV, could not be driven in snow . As I live in Seattle, this rendered my X3 a garage queen during our recent bout with snow and on most days that are below 45 degrees, but this is an SUV! Oh, wait, sorry, SAV! Just not an all-weather one!

I'm relating all of this information to illuminate why I'm about to ask the key question. How does BMW arrive at their tire selection? Because on all 3 of my vehicles, I believe they selected tires that degraded the performance of the vehicle in all measurable ways except, again, from a safety/security, space & weight-saving perspective. Is their decision process tainted by cost, corporate relationships, or product managers that don't know their customers?

I'd love to read about peoples opinions on why BMW persists in offering their vehicles with rft's. Is the space saving/cost reduction really that significant of a factor? Do they place roadside security above all else? Do they feel that most of us will not notice the difference? Is BMW deaf to customer feedback about our dissatisfaction with the rft experience? Or is all of this offset at the time of a new purchase when you can likely select non-rft tires and I've just happened to buy 3 used BMW's all with rft's?

I've read rft's are making strides in all of the areas I criticize them for but it seems that they still have a ways to go judging by others more recent comments. 

So, am I just out of touch and missing the point, or do others feel this way too and wonder about BMW's tire philosophy as do I?

I look forward to the dialogue, let the discussion begin! 

Oh, and btw, for you trolls and haters out there who are chomping at the bit to make me look like a fool for my opinions, don't bother, it's more of a reflection on you then me.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

TL;DR

BMW are lighter for not carrying spare tire, jack, wrench. That’s all.

As far as YOUR subjective impressions of tires (supple handling) BMW are not ideally aligned for anything from the factory.


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## LogicalApex (Aug 5, 2019)

I agree with @Doug Huffman BMW uses RFTs primarily for the weight savings that they afford. That weight savings helps with the car's handling (a lighter car is always better to drive sporty), but more importantly that weight savings will increase the fuel economy of the car and lessen the fines BMW has to pay for not meeting fuel economy standards across their fleet.

You'll soon wake up some who think RFTs should be burned from the earth and should never exist and people who are fine with them. I'm fine with them for a variety of reasons...

That said, RFTs don't have to wear quickly. It all depends on the tire. My BMW OEM Goodyear Eagle Sport RFTs on my 530e are wearing on pace to last 50K miles. I have put over 20K miles on them already. Pirelli wears much faster, but that's a Pirelli for you. They optimize "sporty performance" over longevity.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

ronbo335 said:


> BMW seeks to be the "ultimate driving machine" (admittedly interpreting this slogan is highly subjective)



No, BMW seeks to make customers THINK it is the "ultimate driving machine" 
BMW seeks to drive CAFE as low as possible

Not all Run Flats are created equal, yet people refer to "RFT" as if it is one tire...


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## ronbo335 (Aug 22, 2016)

Not my intention to claim all rft's are created equal however I've driven Pirelli, Continental and Bridgestone rft's and their common characteristics (stiff sidewall) adversely affect the vehicle similarly regardless of brand. 

I appreciate the comments about weight and its affect on mileage and handling, I'm sure that plays a role in their decision making. Maybe I just need to be more cynical about BMW and their marketing messaging and should appreciate having options!

Also, to Ard, I think you meant they seek to drive CAFE as HIGH as possible, correct?


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

ard said:


> No, BMW seeks to make customers THINK it is the "ultimate driving machine"
> BMW seeks to drive CAFE as low as possible
> 
> Not all Run Flats are created equal, yet people refer to "RFT" as if it is one tire...


Good point!

@opie. I am on my second set of RFT. I preemptively changed the CPO OE Duelers at 40K miles with half tread remaining. I changed for NOKIAN WR G3 SUV RFT year around snow tires. They’re not going to last as long as the Duelers but they are true year around SNOW tires, better for where I live.

RFT may adversely affect YOUR EXPECTATIONS of your vehicle. Stop projecting.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

I was def anti-RFT's for a number of valid and "copy-spouted reasons" however the 2 series AWD, has blown my exp[ectations outta the water, I got some Pirelli RFT's for my winters and they are BLOODY AWESOME, expensive but awesome. The summers, forget what they are now, are like shit sticking to a blanket on a warm cosy night


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

one word PROFIT, don't put a jack and a tire in a million cars, how much money are you saving, "FORGET" weight loss, performance, MPG's all that good stuff. IT IS PURELY about saving money.

Hell wasn't it Chrysler who stopped putting some 10c washer into there car's and even if it meant one lawsuit for death, they would still make out like bandits.

Car makers dont give a CRAP about you, they are just selling you a dream and making money, IF they can make YOU feel good and part you from a cash, then everyone's happy,

Hmmm car makers=hookers....maybe that will help the analogy 



ronbo335 said:


> I'd love to read about peoples opinions on why BMW persists in offering their vehicles with rft's. Is the space saving/cost reduction really that significant of a factor? Do they place roadside security above all else? Do they feel that most of us will not notice the difference? Is BMW deaf to customer feedback about our dissatisfaction with the rft experience? Or is all of this offset at the time of a new purchase when you can likely select non-rft tires and I've just happened to buy 3 used BMW's all with rft's?


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## Ohthatguyjax (11 mo ago)

I always switch away from run flats just for the weight savings.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

weight savings ? how much are you think your saving ? and how is that benefiting you, unless your tracking your car ? means nothing, performance, no additional gains as a daily driver, I've used RFT's and Goflats and both have NEVER effected my driving ,handling, performance or fuel consumption. The only thing that changes is the weight of your wallet, it will feel more heavier with ordinary tires than run flats


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

RFT's are heavier than non-RFT's. A 245/40-19 Michelin PS 4S ZP (RFT) weighs 30 pounds, where the same size PS 4S (non-RFT) weighs only 24 pounds.

Tire Rack : Tire Comparisons 

Spare tires have got a lot lighter with the advent of aluminum spare wheels. Jacks could get a lot lighter if they were also made of aluminum.

Car manufacturers like ditching the spare tire to increase profits and to increase the volume of the trunks. Spares are fairly rigid and are stored in the rear crumple zones (excepts on Porsche sports cars). So, having a spare can reduce a car's performance in crash testing.

RFT's have higher rolling resistance than non-RFT's. This reduces fuel economy by about one percent.

RFT's are more expensive and generally don't last as long as non-RFT's. That's money in the bank for tire manufacturers.

My first set of RFT's will also be my last set of RFT's. From here on out, all my new cars will have a spare tire and a hole under the trunk or cargo area floor to put it.


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## Ohthatguyjax (11 mo ago)

jaye944 said:


> weight savings ? how much are you think your saving ? and how is that benefiting you, unless your tracking your car ? means nothing, performance, no additional gains as a daily driver, I've used RFT's and Goflats and both have NEVER effected my driving ,handling, performance or fuel consumption. The only thing that changes is the weight of your wallet, it will feel more heavier with ordinary tires than run flats


Yeah, makes a noticeable difference in basically every performance parameter, even in the street. I put ridiculously wide tires on my cars (325’s on Q50’s, 335/345’s on a Widebody challenger, 325’s on a Durango SRT, 325’s on mustangs, etc). If I used RF boat anchors it wouldn’t work out as well.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

I've had/have 2 BMW's which had runflats and goflats. my 1 series msport and the 2 series AWD
I never noticed "ANY" difference in performance on either car, whatso-ever and absolutely no change in the amount of gas I was using.
I kept meticulous gas records BTW, I also drove both cars like I stole them.

Price point on the tires that's obvious, my 1 series, handled worse on RFT's that goflats, tramlining but I could put my foot down and people behind me eat my dust,
On the 2 series, probably a mix of RFT and AWD, but that is like shit of a blanket, that car moves, Even changed to winter RFT's

I also went from RFT's to goflats, on the 1 series with not a single impact on any metric.

I was so impressed with the RFT's I went with OEM for my winters RFT's mind you I will probably progress to goflats, mainly because ot the price point,
not performance, weight saving or any other metric.

Sounds like a placebo effect to me. 
.


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## Ohthatguyjax (11 mo ago)

I’m sure it felt fast but you wouldn’t believe how much better they would’ve performed with non-runflats. 👍🏻


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## Judy G (Jan 27, 2011)

We hated the RFT's on our 330 so much that we bought new go flats for it. We did opt for the spare when we ordered the car though. It takes up a ton of trunk space though. This car is not our trip car though. The RFT's are waiting in the garage for the end of the lease to get put back.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

were really going to start going down the rabbit hole, so you have people who are pro and anti RFT's and that's fine.
my experience stems from 2 cars and at least 4/5 sets of summer/winters, different makes, RFT and XL's for both cars.
I will conceded if your tracking a car and looking to shave 10ths of a second, but you'll probably be running N2 in them and not air.
On the street , sorry, your not going to see anything and your gas consumption is minimal if no difference.
I spent 2 years documenting my own gas and the only thing that happened was gas prices went up LOL
It is a straight up placebo effect, I always feel better coming from the doctor when my bloodwork is great !
Anyway, I'll bow wow wow out of this one


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

I stopped at Fields BMW Chicago-land the other day, on my route south, and spent a minute in their cafe snaking while my parts were fetched. I chatted with the other customers. ALL were there for tire service due to the highway construction damaging tires, RFT and nRFT.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

We get a lot of flat tires after a hurricane direct hit. The last big one hit the mainland but left us mostly unscathed. I didn't drive over to the mainland in one of our BMW's for six months. The catch was that one of the routes to the Bubba County landfill was through our town. The debris trucks were constantly dropping crap on the roads.

Back when BMW of Bubbaville's building was getting remodeled and expanded, their operation camped out with MINI of Bubbaville next door. Sitting in the customers lounge, it seemed like every MINI customer was getting the news that their front tires were worn out. I guess tire rotation isn't part of a MINIs maintenance schedule.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Doug Huffman said:


> I stopped at Fields BMW Chicago-land the other day, on my route south, and spent a minute in their cafe snaking while my parts were fetched. I chatted with the other customers. *ALL were there for tire service due to the highway construction damaging tires, RFT and nRFT.*


I mean who goes to the dealer for flats?!? Amazing.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Some car dealerships, including BMW of Bubbaville, have competitive prices on tires.

Luxury car dealerships are also more likely to have lever-less tire mounting machines that don't scratch your rims.


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