# Used BMW vs Used Lexus



## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

On another message board, I was trying to talk someone into an E46. Someone else commented that BMW parts were very expensive.

I decided to look up a few random parts and compare the costs between a 2003 BMW 330i and a 2003 Lexus IS300. I also asked a friend that works "in the industry" to look up the shop labor times for replacing the random parts.


This is what I found (parts cost source: autohausaz.com - always the least expensive choice selected):


Obviously this speaks nothing of reliability, but it's interesting nonetheless.


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## noodle (Mar 6, 2007)

interesting & thank you..just proving more to me why i will own one. good work.


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## lochness (Apr 25, 2006)

I own BMWs and a Toyota Sequioa and the Toyota costs more to maintain for normal maintenance (i.e. brake jobs, fluids, belts, hoses, etc) (and I'm not comparing to the BMW free maintenance before someone questions that). My BMW indy mechanic does the work on all of them b/c we take our BMWs there so labor rate is flat. And its a Toyota which I'm guessing parts are less expensive then those for Lexus.


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## wwb4 (Dec 29, 2005)

Huh, that's very interesting. Thanks for posting that.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

We have both a BMW and a 1996 Lexus ES, which everyone knows is a luxury clone of the Toyota Camry. It's a good thing many parts are interchangeable, because the prices that the Lexus stealership charges are downright expensive. $1100 for rear struts/shocks? $741 for valve cover gaskets? Lexus does not mean cheaper parts than their european counterparts, and I know firsthand.


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## SSbear44 (Jan 31, 2007)

I had a 1996 sc400 and then a 1999 sc400 which i loved, but it was not cheap to maintain. The recomended 15k mile service was over $600 for the 15k and over $1k for the 30k and 60k. I had some other maintenance items done, water pump and timing belt (kept the car for 111k miles) and it was a pretty penny for it as well. Lexus cars may run forever, but it will cost $$$ to get them to do so in normal maintenance if you use Lexus. I am looking foward to free maintenance the next four years.


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## Vornado (Feb 20, 2006)

An excellent find. People always scuff at BMWs and glorify lexus and toyota for their reliability, etc. etc.

Now mercedes-benz.. they are just, horrible. It's the best word I can use to describe the quality and cost of repairs of those vehicles.


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## philo98 (Nov 25, 2006)

I've worked for a large Japanese owned Tier 1 supplier and you would be amazed at what those parts actually cost to make. Any aftermarket part you buy is extremely expensive, it just who's more expensive then the other.


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## Aristanet (Feb 12, 2007)

I have owned 5 different Lexus models and never done anything other then change oil (every 10k miles or so) One time I had to replace all 4 tires (car had 45k miles on it). I admit, I only lease my cars and on occasion, I beat the crap out of them but it feels like they can run forever without any maintenance. I hope a BMW can take a similar abuse from me


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## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

this hasn't been my experience at all.

BMW has the highest labor rates around in my area, much higher than Toyota and Honda shops. Also, BMW charges way more than $5 for their oil filter, that number is just wrong.

The whole point in buying a Toyota/Lexus is that they are far less likely to require repairs, which is absolutely true.

BMW inspections are notoriously expensive for nothing (see Inspection 2, what a joke)


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## itzeug (Feb 22, 2006)

lexus just means it wont brake half as often


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## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

pilotman said:


> this hasn't been my experience at all.
> 
> BMW has the highest labor rates around in my area, much higher than Toyota and Honda shops. Also, BMW charges way more than $5 for their oil filter, that number is just wrong.
> 
> ...


The labor costs above are based on TIME and assuming the same labor cost of $100/hr. A dealer will probably be more than that (in both cases) and an independent mechanic will probably be less than that (once again, in most cases).



itzeug said:


> lexus just means it wont brake half as often


Well, how often you brake has to do with if you use engine braking, as well as driving style.

...._Oohh_ you meant *break* . I already mentioned in the first post that I wasn't measuring reliability.


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## itzeug (Feb 22, 2006)

heh, oops, break. 

anyway, comparing the price of oil filters wont let you know anything. a bunch of mechanics i know will charge a bmw owner more cause its a bmw. and cause its a pain in the ass to fix em. and cause the window regulators break every day. anyway, bmws are crap reliability wise, but yeh, you might get cheaper oil filters...


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## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

itzeug said:


> ... and cause its a pain in the ass to fix em.


The labor time listed above proves that it's *not* a pain in the ass to fix 'em.


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## Rowag (Nov 12, 2004)

Interesting spreadsheet, Kris. What's interesting to me though is that if you remove the water pump and tensioner from the equation the Lexus is pretty much dead-on with the BMW. I haven't done the exact math - it might actually be a few pennies cheaper.

With that in mind, remember that the spreadsheet (like you said) doesn't take reliability into account. At 60K you had BETTER change your water pump in your BMW. And from what I've experienced (and read here) you'll probably be replacing a belt tensioner as well.

Is it "best practices" to change a Lexus' water pump at 60k? I'm not sure, but I would guess no. There's some other "BMW-only" maintenance items to consider, too, such as front control arms and bushings that would further skew things in Lexus' favor.

By the way - nice theme on the spreadsheet. Is that a stock theme from some particular piece of software, or did you just whip that up yourself? It looks good.


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## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

Rowag said:


> By the way - nice theme on the spreadsheet. Is that a stock theme from some particular piece of software, or did you just whip that up yourself? It looks good.


stock theme - Excel 2007


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## nowonder (Dec 4, 2002)

Rowag said:


> With that in mind, remember that the spreadsheet (like you said) doesn't take reliability into account. At 60K you had BETTER change your water pump in your BMW. And from what I've experienced (and read here) you'll probably be replacing a belt tensioner as well.


Reliability can't be compared with a small sample set. For instance, my Aunt is on her third transmission on a Lexus with 70k miles. Not exactly what I would call great reliability. Common? I doubt it... But she is the only person I talk to on the regular basis that owns one.

The Japanese have a reputation for reliability, but in a day and age where I get 110,000+ miles on my Jeep Wrangler (a vehicle known for POOR reliability) without a failure, what does more reliable really mean?

--nw


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

Aristanet said:


> I have owned 5 different Lexus models and never done anything other then change oil (every 10k miles or so) One time I had to replace all 4 tires (car had 45k miles on it). I admit, I only lease my cars and on occasion, I beat the crap out of them but it feels like they can run forever without any maintenance. I hope a BMW can take a similar abuse from me


+1 I agree with what you are saying. We currently have 2 lexus models and one we have had for a really long time! We have the newer LX470 and the first gen 93' GS300. 
Both cars provide bullet proof reliability! and are much cheaper to maintain...when comparing to our 2000 750iL which is out of warranty


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

nowonder said:


> Reliability can't be compared with a small sample set. For instance, my Aunt is on her third transmission on a Lexus with 70k miles. Not exactly what I would call great reliability. Common? I doubt it... But she is the only person I talk to on the regular basis that owns one.
> 
> The Japanese have a reputation for reliability, but in a day and age where I get 110,000+ miles on my Jeep Wrangler (a vehicle known for POOR reliability) without a failure, what does more reliable really mean?
> 
> --nw


Yea I have had my engine, driveshaft, u-joints and my transmission replaced on my 745Li which has only 55K:angel:

Whereas my 93 GS300 has 225K....not a single component has failed and our LX is hitting 60K soon...no problems with either of the vehicles..and also my other family members have lexus vehicles and none of them have had any problems other then...reg service


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## Double-S (Nov 30, 2006)

bimmer7 said:


> Yea I have had my engine, driveshaft, u-joints and my transmission replaced on my 745Li which has only 55K:angel:


:yikes: What the hell were you doing with the car, off roading?


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## Rowag (Nov 12, 2004)

nowonder said:


> Reliability can't be compared with a small sample set.
> 
> The Japanese have a reputation for reliability, but in a day and age where I get 110,000+ miles on my Jeep Wrangler (a vehicle known for POOR reliability) without a failure, what does more reliable really mean?
> 
> --nw


You're right (about the small sample set) but there are plenty of large-sample studies that show Lexus kicking BMW's butt in overall reliability. There's also the "rule of thumb" maintenance for BMWs that you simply don't have with a Lexus: water pump @ 60k, radiator, control arm bushings, etc. And if you're talking about the E46 (too early to tell with the E90/E92) then there's window regulators, door seals, etc. Other models have big problems too (7 series electrical systems, various model VANOS problems, etc.)


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## Rowag (Nov 12, 2004)

SSIMON said:


> :yikes: What the hell were you doing with the car, off roading?


:rofl: Maybe the right-most picture in his sig has something to do with it.


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## Double-S (Nov 30, 2006)

Rowag said:


> :rofl: Maybe the right-most picture in his sig has something to do with it.


Yup, missed that. However, I do that everyday and my car is A1!:angel:


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

SSIMON said:


> :yikes: What the hell were you doing with the car, off roading?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

No it wasnt anything like that...I have the Lexus LX470 to do that if i wanna go off-road :bigpimp:

Actually, heres a small section from my workorder..that shows the engine replacement on the 745li!

The tranny...was a weird one...after driving and coming to a stop my RPM would remain around 2000RPM :yikes: My car would not be able to stop properly :thumbdwn: Took it to the dealer they told me your foot mat was pressing the accelerator partly...I was like oh i c  ...but they said they would check it...and after they did....turned out the tranny had to be replaced....

The U-joints/driveshaft was a minor thing....actually there was a humming noise around 130km/h and it was a faulty U-joint...and while they changed that...they had updated a component on the drive shaft....well....so its not like the drive shaft broke becuz i ran over something...but lets jus say they took care of the problem by performing the update and replacing the faulty u-joint :bigpimp:

So now the 745Li has a brand new engine and tranny and it runs beautiful


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

Rowag said:


> :rofl: Maybe the right-most picture in his sig has something to do with it.


Oh trust me...it has nothing to do with this...I do it to all my cars...but its unfortunate that the 745 became an innocent victim and had these problems 

But BMW stands behind there product and provide excellent service...in the end of the day thats what matters


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## Double-S (Nov 30, 2006)

bimmer7 said:


> But BMW stands behind there product and provide excellent service...in the end of the day thats what matters


Good to know!:thumbup:


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## ___lk___ (Dec 21, 2001)

Rowag said:


> You're right (about the small sample set) but there are plenty of large-sample studies that show Lexus kicking BMW's butt in overall reliability. There's also the "rule of thumb" maintenance for BMWs that you simply don't have with a Lexus: water pump @ 60k, radiator, control arm bushings, etc. And if you're talking about the E46 (too early to tell with the E90/E92) then there's window regulators, door seals, etc. Other models have big problems too (7 series electrical systems, various model VANOS problems, etc.)


i agree... i would gladly pay 50% more to fix a car that breaks down 66% less often. it's free money in your pocket, assuming your time is worth anything at all to you.

it's not that bmw's break down, it's the ANNOYANCE FACTOR of the low-tech items with ridiculously high failure rates... you shouldn't have to be afraid to roll down the windows on a $40k car. this is 2007, not 1977.

i would certainly not try to talk somebody into buying an E46, that's for sure. an e39 530i? maybe.


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## bgibson50 (Apr 21, 2008)

*Perfect topic...*

This is just what I needed. I'm currently researching buying a 2004 M3 6 spd hardtop, or a2004 330ci hardtop. My main concern is maintence cost because a friend keeps telling me how expensive Bimmers are to maintain. Is there anyway to find a cost comparison for full brake service, clutch replacement, etc. (common big ticket maintenence-outside of Inspection 1 and 2) between M3 and 330ci versus an American (i.e. 2005 Corvette). If you're able to find an answer or let me know where to look I would greatly appreciate it. Also I live in St. Louis, MO and we have certified BMW shop (Bimmers-r-us) that said M3 brakes (rotors, pads, sensors) would be @$1100 (600 rear, 500 front), clutch (clutch kit, flywheel) @$1000, and service 1 @$150, service 2 @$1000. Does this sound appropriate? Thanks!


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## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

bgibson50 said:


> This is just what I needed. I'm currently researching buying a 2004 M3 6 spd hardtop, or a2004 330ci hardtop. My main concern is maintence cost because a friend keeps telling me how expensive Bimmers are to maintain. Is there anyway to find a cost comparison for full brake service, clutch replacement, etc. (common big ticket maintenence-outside of Inspection 1 and 2) between M3 and 330ci versus an American (i.e. 2005 Corvette). If you're able to find an answer or let me know where to look I would greatly appreciate it. Also I live in St. Louis, MO and we have certified BMW shop (Bimmers-r-us) that said M3 brakes (rotors, pads, sensors) would be @$1100 (600 rear, 500 front), clutch (clutch kit, flywheel) @$1000, and service 1 @$150, service 2 @$1000. Does this sound appropriate? Thanks!


Just the parts for M3 brakes are roughly four times that of the 330ci... something to keep in mind. You can look up the parts yourself at sites like autohausaz.com, for labor, best to just call a local mechanic who will look it up in his/her alldata labor guide..

As for the service 2... that price is ridiculous. Look in the E46 wiki here and you'll see what's included (less than $100 in parts)...


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## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

bgibson50 said:


> This is just what I needed. I'm currently researching buying a 2004 M3 6 spd hardtop, or a2004 330ci hardtop. My main concern is maintence cost because a friend keeps telling me how expensive Bimmers are to maintain. Is there anyway to find a cost comparison for full brake service, clutch replacement, etc. (common big ticket maintenence-outside of Inspection 1 and 2) between M3 and 330ci versus an American (i.e. 2005 Corvette). If you're able to find an answer or let me know where to look I would greatly appreciate it. Also I live in St. Louis, MO and we have certified BMW shop (Bimmers-r-us) that said M3 brakes (rotors, pads, sensors) would be @$1100 (600 rear, 500 front), clutch (clutch kit, flywheel) @$1000, and service 1 @$150, service 2 @$1000. Does this sound appropriate? Thanks!


of course there is a big difference between maintenance and repairs.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever claim that a BMW is more reliable than a Lexus, that simply isn't true and hundreds of independent studies prove this out.

So, I think when most people claim that BMWs are expensive to maintain, well, we know they are compared to Acuras, etc...but more importantly, you are much more likely to have things break, stop working, etc with a used BMW than you are with a used Lexus, assuming the maintenance between the cars is equal.

So, the BMW will undoubtedly be more expensive to own in the long run, because it will suffer from more failures and problems, mechanical defects etc. than the Lexus...

no one can deny this fact based upon years and years of factual, empircal data.

Now of course, BMWs are more rewarding to drive, for sure, just not as reliable as Lexus and more expensive to own.


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## beashonda (Feb 17, 2008)

Cost me $750+ tax to put new breaks on a Lexus ES 330 with $32K miles. I thought that was crazy that I needed new brakes. Yes, I do alot of stop and go driving locally to work, but I do not ride my foot on the brake. I had a 2003 E39 that had 45K miles on it before i traded it for the lexus. Yes, bad decision, but I was worried about the warranty being nearly over on a 2 year old car. Still had 7mm on the pads on the BMW.


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