# Diesel HPR (Premium Biomass Diesel) vs Diesel ASTM D975 (BioDiesel)



## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

i apologize in advance but i hope some of you don't mind if i want to bring back conversation about premium diesel vs biodiesel. in particularly diesel hpr by propel vs biodiesel (B5,B20,B100) ok so lets get down to the numbers. diesel hpr cetane number is a whopping 75 ! vs other biodiesel with the highest cetane number only at 53. and from what i've researched and read from other threads regards to this magic diesel which is only available in california. and expanding to texas soon or its probably already there as we speak. diesel hpr introduced in california 3 years ago but been around for 10 years and also were known as propel biofuel. now some of you that are aware of diesel hpr and have question or concerns about the lubricity level. don't worry they got you covered. it meets european standard numbers and exceeds the US standard. that have been confirmed. 
now, i've actually have been looking for a better diesel fuel than whats been given at the minimum of 40. thankfully, im a california resident and there are few of these available near where i live. talk about a diesel fuel upgrade, right ? i've heard from other diesel forum also that who lucky enough to able to get their hands on these diesel hpr here in california have nothing but good news about it. from vw, mercedes, bmw, old and newer models. some of them said that this diesel hpr actually help and eliminate many current bad symptoms on their car. so i would love to hear more from people in california or texas or anyone that have tried these diesel hpr. 
im looking forward to actually give this a try. and i will try to update with updates. first, i probably will empty tank to the minimal of whatever biodiesel left in the system then fill up with these magic diesel because came to find out mixing biodiesel and diesel hpr is prohibited. im talking about 50/50 mix not mixing with the minimal. remember, these performance diesel fuel lubricity level 'meets' european standard and 'exceeds' the US standard. so no need for additives nor mix with biodiesel. im at quarter tank now so ill be doing some 'cruising' today and probably the rest of the weekend. i was also thinking to replace my fuel filter first to prevent clogging when these premium fuels doing some cleaning process but i want to make sure i can get both stories on paper sort of speak. maybe, just maybe, these premium diesel fuel will clean the lines and i don't have the need to replace the fuel filter after all. 
ill try to keep you guys updated with pics and info that i've gather from other sources that i've accumulated during my research regards to this premium diesel vs biodiesel. :thumbup:


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

I've filled up with HPR a couple of times. I saw no appreciable difference between it and regular diesel. If it's cheaper, I'll use it, if not, I won't. It's about $0.10/gal more expensive than regular diesel where I am.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*Bimmerfest recently moved to I believe Google servers and the database was lost.*

So do the G00gle Custom Search for "propel hpr" to find considerable previous discussion.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FaRKle! said:


> I've filled up with HPR a couple of times. I saw no appreciable difference between it and regular diesel. If it's cheaper, I'll use it, if not, I won't. It's about $0.10/gal more expensive than regular diesel where I am.


sorry to hear that, from what ive read there are more people that are satisfied even if its just as a placebo effect than anything else. although there are a couple that stated clogged their fuel filter which came to find out that diesel fuel (HPR) were actually helping clean out their system than harming it. thus i recommend people replace their fuel filters first then switch to diesel HPR. me, on the other hand, since all this is also new to me and im in california and i still didnt hear about it since last week, i want to use the current fuel filter knowing that maybe it will maintain stability more than actually clogging or harming it from previous deposits. if it does, then i will put that on record and replace my fuel filter. but personally, i would not pass on this opportunity on getting these premium diesel which is available in my backyard. numbers across the board leans toward diesel HPR. now maybe you didn't notice any difference but as for the possibility prolonging the engine life and stability in fuel consumptions in your diesel vehicle and it didn't harm or make things worst for your vehicle itself its a win-win situation. since you are a californian like myself, you have direct access to what i think is the best diesel fuel available. not a lot of people can actually say that.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

eric_dot_com said:


> ...
> 
> now, i've actually have been looking for a better diesel fuel than whats been given at the minimum of 40. thankfully, im a california resident and there are few of these available near where i live. talk about a diesel fuel upgrade, right ? i've heard from other diesel forum also that who lucky enough to able to get their hands on these diesel hpr here in california ...


You should first educate yourself about California emissions standards and diesel in CA (and other states following their standards.) A major part of the CA standards is the fuel. Special gasoline, AND SPECIAL DIESEL. Diesel in CA States, while not specifically specifying a cetane, has other requirements that essentially give it 51 cetane.

Look at the CARB site, and you'll find the standard. Educate yourself - by searching as others have mentioned.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

Doug Huffman said:


> So do the G00gle Custom Search for "propel hpr" to find considerable previous discussion.


yup appreciate that doug. some on here still have never heard of biomass fuel vs biodiesel. and some are californians like myself. shoot, i never heard of it since last week. these were available right on my backyard ! and i want to reach out to other people that have tried it so they can maybe elaborate on what they have experienced and vice versa.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

floydarogers said:


> You should first educate yourself about California emissions standards and diesel in CA (and other states following their standards.) A major part of the CA standards is the fuel. Special gasoline, AND SPECIAL DIESEL. Diesel in CA States, while not specifically specifying a cetane, has other requirements that essentially give it 51 cetane.
> 
> Look at the CARB site, and you'll find the standard. Educate yourself - by searching as others have mentioned.


:thumbup:


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Other than the 53 cetane rating. The CARB diesel fuel requirement is no different than Texas TxLED requirement. Unless there is a newer version than the 2014 revision below?

BRIEF SUMMARY: CARB Diesel Fuel Specifications and Test Methods 

Texas Low Emission Diesel (TxLED) Program


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## FredoinSF (Nov 29, 2009)

I used to fill up with Propel fairly often when I lived in Oakland. There was a station that I drove by regularly on the way to the Gym at dark o'clock in the morning. Actually made a couple of interesting encounters there and could have picked up more than just fuel if I had been so inclined... 
While I like the story behind Propel HPR and the specs looked decent and the price was typically more advantageous than D2 at the same or nearby stations, I found my fuel consumption would increase when I used the HPR juice. That was the opposite of what I expected given the high cetane rating. I can't prove the fuel mileage observation via a scientific method, but I track my fuel consumption almost religiously and enough of my driving involves the same Reno to SF Bay Area route that I know what a typical tank should bring depending on whether I am driving up or down Donner Pass or both, especially after doing this for five years with the same car. 
One of the concerns in prior discussions is what this fuel would do to the already fragile emissions system. I have 81k miles on the car, of which 10-12k miles were done with Propel HPR and I have not experienced any sort of emissions related issues to date. Since my car is past the point where many have already had some emission system issues, I'd say Propel HPR has had no adverse effect that may be directly attributed to the use of that fuel. FWIW I use Power Service fuel additive with every other D2 refill. 
I would still use Propel HPR but we sold the house in Oakland about 18 months ago and there are no Propel stations in Sonoma County. I would resume use if there were a station at a convenient location.


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

FredoinSF said:


> I found my fuel consumption would increase when I used the HPR juice. That was the opposite of what I expected given the high cetane rating.


IIRC HPR doesn't have as high energy density as D2, so that's not surprising.

That said, the last tank I used HPR in I got 34.59mpg, the tank after that (D2) was 34.56mpg. So, like I said before, for me I saw no appreciable difference.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FredoinSF said:


> I used to fill up with Propel fairly often when I lived in Oakland. There was a station that I drove by regularly on the way to the Gym at dark o'clock in the morning. Actually made a couple of interesting encounters there and could have picked up more than just fuel if I had been so inclined...
> While I like the story behind Propel HPR and the specs looked decent and the price was typically more advantageous than D2 at the same or nearby stations, I found my fuel consumption would increase when I used the HPR juice. That was the opposite of what I expected given the high cetane rating. I can't prove the fuel mileage observation via a scientific method, but I track my fuel consumption almost religiously and enough of my driving involves the same Reno to SF Bay Area route that I know what a typical tank should bring depending on whether I am driving up or down Donner Pass or both, especially after doing this for five years with the same car.
> One of the concerns in prior discussions is what this fuel would do to the already fragile emissions system. I have 81k miles on the car, of which 10-12k miles were done with Propel HPR and I have not experienced any sort of emissions related issues to date. Since my car is past the point where many have already had some emission system issues, I'd say Propel HPR has had no adverse effect that may be directly attributed to the use of that fuel. FWIW I use Power Service fuel additive with every other D2 refill.
> I would still use Propel HPR but we sold the house in Oakland about 18 months ago and there are no Propel stations in Sonoma County. I would resume use if there were a station at a convenient location.


ah i see, so then not only you would still keep using propel if it was still available within your reach, you never had problems while using it all those times in oakland. unfortunately because its not available in your area now, you need to take another option which is power service and D2. but nevertheless, hey i appreciate that input tho for sure. your feedback for someone that have used propel is almost the same result as many that have tried it. btw - did you ever in any time replace the fuel filter after or prior using propel ? im curious to know...if you dont remember its all good too...


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FaRKle! said:


> IIRC HPR doesn't have as high energy density as D2, so that's not surprising.
> 
> That said, the last tank I used HPR in I got 34.59mpg, the tank after that (D2) was 34.56mpg. So, like I said before, for me I saw no appreciable difference.


are you still on HPR ?


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

eric_dot_com said:


> are you still on HPR ?


Not recently since it hasn't been cheaper than D2. Last D2 tank I filled up I got 34.12mpg (and that's with a stage 2 tune now).


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## FredoinSF (Nov 29, 2009)

eric_dot_com said:


> - *did you ever in any time replace the fuel filter after or prior using propel ? im curious to know...if you dont remember its all good too*...


Yes, the fuel filter has been replaced every 35k miles so it's on its third fuel filter since leaving the factory.
If interested the oil gets changed at roughly 6,500 miles interval. Used the BMW Castrol diesel oil until about 45k miles then moved to Mobil ESP 5W30 once the BMW maintenance plan turned into a pumpkin.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FaRKle! said:


> Not recently since it hasn't been cheaper than D2. Last D2 tank I filled up I got 34.12mpg (and that's with a stage 2 tune now).


It hasn't been cheaper ? Diesel HPR are supposedly cheaper than D2. At least where I'm at it's cheaper than D2. idk maybe in Texas is not. By anyhow, 
Even if it's 10 cents more to the dollar I would go propel route only if it's available in your area. The 75 cetane rating just by itself its worth 10 cents in my opinion. The rest of the benefits that you get (pic attached) are all the extras that you get by paying 10 cents more to the dollar for Diesel HPR compared to D2. You and some may say that you can't tell the difference but numbers across the board don't lie. By hearing many others testimony, I have come to conclusion that Diesel HPR is by far the best diesel fuel available for our bmw. I wouldn't recommend using additives. I think b adding additives to the D2 tells a lot about D2. You don't need additive when using the best diesel fuel available. The only problem is not many have direct access to diesel HPR. If Diesel HPR made common just like the D2, I'm almost positively sure it will be the standard for all diesel fuel.









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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FredoinSF said:


> Yes, the fuel filter has been replaced every 35k miles so it's on its third fuel filter since leaving the factory.
> 
> If interested the oil gets changed at roughly 6,500 miles interval. Used the BMW Castrol diesel oil until about 45k miles then moved to Mobil ESP 5W30 once the BMW maintenance plan turned into a pumpkin.


Wow 6500 miles intervals eh ? Impressive. Ok so yea good to know that you replaced fuel filter regardless using HPR or not. That's how it should be. 

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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

eric_dot_com said:


> It hasn***8217;t been cheaper ? Diesel HPR are supposedly cheaper than D2. At least where I***8217;m at it***8217;s cheaper than D2.


In my part of the Bay Area HPR isn't cheaper than D2. There are two volume D2 stations between my office and the HPR station that have D2 for $0.10 cheaper than HPR. Is it so hard to believe that prices are different between SoCal and NorCal? You can probably find a cheaper D2 station pretty close to your HPR station on gasbuddy.



eric_dot_com said:


> You and some may say that you can***8217;t tell the difference but numbers across the board don***8217;t lie. By hearing many others testimony, I have come to conclusion that Diesel HPR is by far the best diesel fuel available for our bmw.


Good for you, but until you get some actual data, the "across the board" numbers and "best fuel option" statements you keep talking about are all marketing. Looking forward to your logs with tanks of D2 and HPR over the coming months.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

@Eric dot com

I don't think most people in places where they have higher quality fuel with higher cetane numbers will see that much of a benefit from the HPR fuel unless the engine is re-tuned and re-camed for it. From what I have read about these engines, 51 is the optimal cetane, but the ECM can adjust injection timing for lower cetane fuel. However, there is only so much adjustment the ECM can make without changing hard parts and once it hits that point then more cetane is useless. You might see better improvements in places with low fuel standards.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FaRKle! said:


> In my part of the Bay Area HPR isn't cheaper than D2. There are two volume D2 stations between my office and the HPR station that have D2 for $0.10 cheaper than HPR. Is it so hard to believe that prices are different between SoCal and NorCal? You can probably find a cheaper D2 station pretty close to your HPR station on gasbuddy.
> 
> Yea that's a trip. SoCal and NorCal have different prices.
> 
> Good for you, but until you get some actual data, the "across the board" numbers and "best fuel option" statements you keep talking about are all marketing. Looking forward to your logs with tanks of D2 and HPR over the coming months.


I posted neste (company that distribute these diesel HPR fuels) in for comparison above. The progression data from biodiesel to biomass overall is for my personal data purposes only but I don't mind sharing that with people on this forum. I brought this discussion back to hear from others on this forum that have used the product. Not for marketing purposes. There are a lot of people from other forums have tried it and documented their experiences using it and I hear nothing but good things about it.

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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

alacey said:


> @Eric dot com
> 
> I don't think most people in places where they have higher quality fuel with higher cetane numbers will see that much of a benefit from the HPR fuel unless the engine is re-tuned and re-camed for it. From what I have read about these engines, 51 is the optimal cetane, but the ECM can adjust injection timing for lower cetane fuel. However, there is only so much adjustment the ECM can make without changing hard parts and once it hits that point then more cetane is useless. You might see better improvements in places with low fuel standards.


In certain extent I have to disagree with you. This stuff been around for years now just with a different name so people have tried these without tunes or cams. It's not all come down to only cetane level. Propel don't just make these fuel available just because it has higher cetane ratings. And people that would like to try these biomass diesel fuel shouldn't get them just because of cetane. Biomass fuel is a different beast. Im not on here for marketing purposes so I want people to understand that. But I found this online just some clarifications about diesel HPR...

The second kind of biomass-based diesel is called "renewable diesel" or "green diesel." Like biodiesel, it is made from the oils of seeds, algae, or animal fats. Unlike biodiesel, it is transformed into fuel by a process used in conventional petroleum refining called hydrotreating. The resulting fuel is chemically identical to conventional diesel and can be blended in any proportion. It has a higher energy content than biodiesel and works better in cold weather. Because renewable diesel duplicates conventional diesel, Plaza acknowledges, it's "a product that everybody would rather have."

Diesel HPR has 40% higher cetane than typical diesel for smoother combustion and a better ride.

Refined through advanced hydrotreating technology to meet your diesel engine specifications, Diesel HPR comes from recycled tallow and oils, a byproduct of chicken, beef and fish production.

It outperforms Biodiesel B20, delivering more power and lower emissions, and meets the ASTM D975 petroleum diesel specification required by diesel engines. While some vehicle manufacturers recommend limiting use of biodiesel to blends of 5% & 20% (B5 - B20), there are no limits to the blend ratio of renewable Diesel HPR. Diesel HPR does not contain biodiesel.

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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

eric_dot_com said:


> In certain extent I have to disagree with you. This stuff been around for years now just with a different name so people have tried these without tunes or cams. It's not all come down to only cetane level. Propel don't just make these fuel available just because it has higher cetane ratings. And people that would like to try these biomass diesel fuel shouldn't get them just because of cetane. Biomass fuel is a different beast. Im not on here for marketing purposes so I want people to understand that. But I found this online just some clarifications about diesel HPR...


I wasn't saying that some will not see a benefit. If you are currently using lower quality fuel that what your engine is tuned for and then suddenly use HPR then there is no doubt you will see a difference. However, as Farkle stated, he is not seeing a difference in fuel mileage because the other fuel choice meets the optimum quality that his engine is tuned for so anything more is just useless. Basically diminishing returns past a certain point.

It is kind of like putting premium gasoline in a car that was tuned to only run on regular. Adding premium will not serve any benefit and is just a waste of money. Now if that engine is a multi-fuel engine and can adjust its ignition, valves, and cams for the type of fuel being used like my old Ecoboot could. Then running premium will serve a benefit up to the point the hard parts can no longer adjust.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

alacey said:


> I wasn't saying that some will not see a benefit. If you are currently using lower quality fuel that what your engine is tuned for and then suddenly use HPR then there is no doubt you will see a difference. However, as Farkle stated, he is not seeing a difference in fuel mileage because the other fuel choice meets the optimum quality that his engine is tuned for so anything more is just useless. Basically diminishing returns past a certain point.
> 
> It is kind of like putting premium gasoline in a car that was tuned to only run on regular. Adding premium will not serve any benefit and is just a waste of money. Now if that engine is a multi-fuel engine and can adjust its ignition, valves, and cams for the type of fuel being used like my old Ecoboot could. Then running premium will serve a benefit up to the point the hard parts can no longer adjust.


The point that I was trying to make is that diesel HPR with its ingredients etc should make a difference in a tuned or non tuned car. It's available not just for non tuned car but it goes for all Diesel engine not as a replacement but as a 'refined' option for anyone who prefer it. but diesel HPR is for all Diesel engine. Tuned or non tuned. A tuned car should be running the best diesel fuel available and that also goes with non tuned cars. Now if one can't tell the difference well that's another thing. But neste have specifically (in the chart I've attached above) elaborate by the numbers and details comparing biomass diesel (diesel HPR) and biodiesel. I want diesel HPR in my system because it's simply available in my backyard. There's no reason that I would rather want to put blended biodiesel in my ride and pass on diesel HPR.









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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

eric_dot_com said:


> The point that I was trying to make is that diesel HPR with its ingredients etc should make a difference in a tuned or non tuned car. It's available not just for non tuned car but it goes for all Diesel engine not as a replacement but as a 'refined' option for anyone who prefer it. but diesel HPR is for all Diesel engine. Tuned or non tuned. A tuned car should be running the best diesel fuel available and that also goes with non tuned cars. Now if one can't tell the difference well that's another thing. But neste have specifically (in the chart I've attached above) elaborate by the numbers and details comparing biomass diesel (diesel HPR) and biodiesel. I want diesel HPR in my system because it's simply available in my backyard. There's no reason that I would rather want to put blended biodiesel in my ride and pass on diesel HPR.


When I say tuned, I am referring to how the manufacturer tunes(or maps the fueling) the engine not an aftermarket tuner although an aftermarket tuner can alter these maps for a certain fuel quality a well. I will use map from this point on so there is no confusion.

The manufacturer will generally map the vehicle's fuel tables to run at an optimum fuel quality to coincide with cam profile, turbocharger efficiency map, and other parts. It can run on lower quality fuel(to an extent) sacrificing power and efficiency to do so. The injection timing can only be advanced or retarded to a certain extent depending on the burn rate of the fuel. A fuel quality higher than the what the engine is optimally mapped to run on will serve no added benefit in regards to power and efficiency.

Hence the reason why Farkle didn't see a noticeable difference. He lives in California where fuel quality is already at what his BMW was optimally mapped to run at and having a higher quality fuel did not make any noticeable difference. This HPR fuel might make a noticeable difference for him if he was living in a area where the fuel quality was less.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

alacey said:


> When I say tuned, I am referring to how the manufacturer tunes(or maps the fueling) the engine not an aftermarket tuner although an aftermarket tuner can alter these maps for a certain fuel quality a well. I will use map from this point on so there is no confusion.
> 
> The manufacturer will generally map the vehicle's fuel tables to run at an optimum fuel quality to coincide with cam profile, turbocharger efficiency map, and other parts. It can run on lower quality fuel(to an extent) sacrificing power and efficiency to do so. The injection timing can only be advanced or retarded to a certain extent depending on the burn rate of the fuel. A fuel quality higher than the what the engine is optimally mapped to run on will serve no added benefit in regards to power and efficiency.
> 
> Hence the reason why Farkle didn't see a noticeable difference. He lives in California where fuel quality is already at what his BMW was optimally mapped to run at and having a higher quality fuel did not make any noticeable difference. This HPR fuel might make a noticeable difference for him if he was living in a area where the fuel quality was less.


And if you don't mind me asking - what state do you live in ?

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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FaRKle! said:


> In my part of the Bay Area HPR isn't cheaper than D2. There are two volume D2 stations between my office and the HPR station that have D2 for $0.10 cheaper than HPR. Is it so hard to believe that prices are different between SoCal and NorCal? You can probably find a cheaper D2 station pretty close to your HPR station on gasbuddy.
> 
> Good for you, but until you get some actual data, the "across the board" numbers and "best fuel option" statements you keep talking about are all marketing. Looking forward to your logs with tanks of D2 and HPR over the coming months.


I don't think it's all just about marketing because if you would google diesel HPR you will be taken to all type of legitimate respectable forum and hear testimony from all kinds of reputable diesel owners from bmw heads to vw to mercedes from old school to new school etc that have gone use diesel HPR and you'll be surprise what they would say about it. It's like they just trip into a gold mine. Understand that most of them are Californians and Texans. The idea of using D2 biodiesel in some of these forums and even adding additives to it are just insane knowing that HPR is available in your fingertips. Now i understand that most states don't have the luxury of putting diesel HPR in their system thus they have to stick with a biodiesel. Do you know in those forums that I've mentioned how many people from all across the state envy us because we have direct access to HPR ? But hey if your in Cali or Texas and have direct access to HPR and still prefer D2 because you didn't feel any difference...hey more power to you buddy. In the end, it's your car. Go for it.

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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

eric_dot_com said:


> And if you don't mind me asking - what state do you live in ?


San Antonio, Texas


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

eric_dot_com said:


> I don't think it's all just about marketing because if you would google diesel HPR y


G00gle sells product placement. Do not use Alphabet products.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

Doug Huffman said:


> San Antonio, Texas


Oh hey Doug, 
Good to see you back again.

But let me take a wild guess,

You are NOT on diesel HPR , correct ?

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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

eric_dot_com said:


> Oh hey Doug, Good to see you back again. But let me take a wild guess, You are NOT on diesel HPR , correct ?


Is your point that only empirical _a posteriori_ knowledge is worthy of opinion?

I assure you that I learned much _a priori_ from textbooks that I never experienced. I have watched many many snake oil salesmen in my seventy years.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

eric_dot_com said:


> And if you don***8217;t mind me asking - what state do you live in ?


La Vernia Texas which is about 30 miles east of San Antonio Texas. I just put San Antonio because most people know where that is.


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

eric_dot_com said:


> The point that I was trying to make is that diesel HPR with its ingredients etc should make a difference in a tuned or non tuned car. It***8217;s available not just for non tuned car but it goes for all Diesel engine not as a replacement but as a ***8216;refined***8217; option for anyone who prefer it. but diesel HPR is for all Diesel engine. Tuned or non tuned. A tuned car should be running the best diesel fuel available and that also goes with non tuned cars. Now if one can***8217;t tell the difference well that***8217;s another thing. But neste have specifically (in the chart I***8217;ve attached above) elaborate by the numbers and details comparing biomass diesel (diesel HPR) and biodiesel. I want diesel HPR in my system because it***8217;s simply available in my backyard. There***8217;s no reason that I would rather want to put blended biodiesel in my ride and pass on diesel HPR.
> 
> View attachment 787170
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


That table is nothing but marketing. There's no hard data in it. It's all conjecture and hand waving till hard data is shown. Sure, they can say "more cetane = better!" but at what concentrations and conditions do you need for it to have an SNR high enough to see it?



eric_dot_com said:


> I don***8217;t think it***8217;s all just about marketing because if you would google diesel HPR you will be taken to all type of legitimate respectable forum and hear testimony from all kinds of reputable diesel owners from bmw heads to vw to mercedes from old school to new school etc that have gone use diesel HPR and you***8217;ll be surprise what they would say about it. It***8217;s like they just trip into a gold mine. Understand that most of them are Californians and Texans. The idea of using D2 biodiesel in some of these forums and even adding additives to it are just insane knowing that HPR is available in your fingertips. Now i understand that most states don***8217;t have the luxury of putting diesel HPR in their system thus they have to stick with a biodiesel. Do you know in those forums that I***8217;ve mentioned how many people from all across the state envy us because we have direct access to HPR ? But hey if your in Cali or Texas and have direct access to HPR and still prefer D2 because you didn***8217;t feel any difference...hey more power to you buddy. In the end, it***8217;s your car. Go for it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


There have been some good points here previously that the benefits of one vehicle may not be shown in another depending on the factory tuning. Just because a product works well with VW, doesn't mean it'll show the same magnitude of benefit with BMW. Thus far you have no data showing for the N47 that HPR makes a significant difference worth the extra cost. Even if I were to add the cost of an additive (like diesel kleen for example) the cost would be less than the difference between filling up with D2 and HPR.

Using hearsay when someone says, "prove it" is a poor way of backing up a position.

Now that you've increased awareness of HPR, anything further without data is just shilling.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

FaRKle! said:


> That table is nothing but marketing. There's no hard data in it. It's all conjecture and hand waving till hard data is shown. Sure, they can say "more cetane = better!" but at what concentrations and conditions do you need for it to have an SNR high enough to see it?
> 
> There have been some good points here previously that the benefits of one vehicle may not be shown in another depending on the factory tuning. Just because a product works well with VW, doesn't mean it'll show the same magnitude of benefit with BMW. Thus far you have no data showing for the N47 that HPR makes a significant difference worth the extra cost. Even if I were to add the cost of an additive (like diesel kleen for example) the cost would be less than the difference between filling up with D2 and HPR.
> 
> ...


I do not see anything here but marketing. There is no any data about benefits and downsides of using HPR. 
Only thing I got from this thread is that people are so happy they have HPR that they literally pissing their pants.

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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

edycol said:


> I do not see anything here but marketing. There is no any data about benefits and downsides of using HPR.
> Only thing I got from this thread is that people are so happy they have HPR that they literally pissing their pants.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yea you are absolutely correct. about happy we have access to hpr. but my original thread is to reach out to other people that have used and experienced with these diesel hpr on this forum. but as far as collecting actual data and benefit or downside of this product, im sure you can find it online. what i attached and posted are not some idea but actual facts about the product ingredients from the actual website so that people that never heard of it could see the numbers per say and have an idea. google diesel hpr and you will find more info from other forums from people that have used it for years. those people are the actual results that you want to hear. the reason not too many can elaborate more on this diesel hpr, it is because the fact that is only available in california and texas. again, that is why im trying to see if there are other people that have went this route.


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

FaRKle! said:


> That table is nothing but marketing. There's no hard data in it. It's all conjecture and hand waving till hard data is shown. Sure, they can say "more cetane = better!" but at what concentrations and conditions do you need for it to have an SNR high enough to see it?
> 
> There have been some good points here previously that the benefits of one vehicle may not be shown in another depending on the factory tuning. Just because a product works well with VW, doesn't mean it'll show the same magnitude of benefit with BMW. Thus far you have no data showing for the N47 that HPR makes a significant difference worth the extra cost. Even if I were to add the cost of an additive (like diesel kleen for example) the cost would be less than the difference between filling up with D2 and HPR.
> 
> ...


yea i agree that vw or mercedes numbers cant be compare to bmw. i will do my best to find some more info based on the product. i think when it comes down to it, in the end its up to the owner of the vehicle. everyone wants prove but no one wants to try it first. im fine with that. at least, the awareness part count because if these biomass fuel somehow in near future become the standard or relatively another viable option, which i think it will be, then by then waiting for someone to 'prove it' is irrelevant. but hey i get it man. thanks for all of that. i respectfully respect where you coming from. at least you were decent enough to elaborate on what you mean and not being a big head about it. i appreciate that. :thumbup:


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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

​


alacey said:


> La Vernia Texas which is about 30 miles east of San Antonio Texas. I just put San Antonio because most people know where that is.


yea cuz i have no idea where la vernia also..lol

reason why i ask is because if you have direct access (pretty much) to diesel hpr, what makes you hesitant to even going to biomass route and rather keep using biodiesel blends. or are you on diesel hpr - sorry should've asked you that at first.

the numbers and info that i attached above are not actual personal data, but those comes directly from neste website. i put it out there so people that have no clue that these diesel HPR is somehow available sometimes in their backyard, could see a glimpse of the numbers


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

eric_dot_com said:


> ​
> yea cuz i have no idea where la vernia also..lol
> 
> reason why i ask is because if you have direct access (pretty much) to diesel hpr, what makes you hesitant to even going to biomass route and rather keep using biodiesel blends. or are you on diesel hpr - sorry should've asked you that at first.
> ...


I am not hesitant on anything. I was just trying to explain why Farkle was not seeing any fuel economy benefit due to the fact that the fuel in his area is already at the quality that is optimal for his engine.

I would try HPR if it were available in my area. I record every full-up(for tax reasons) using my aCar app on both my diesel truck and diesel car. If I had a bump in fuel economy then I would know it. Although, if I were to see a gain, it would probably be in my truck since I can personally tune it for HPR using my EFI Live software.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

eric_dot_com said:


> yea you are absolutely correct. about happy we have access to hpr. but my original thread is to reach out to other people that have used and experienced with these diesel hpr on this forum. but as far as collecting actual data and benefit or downside of this product, im sure you can find it online. what i attached and posted are not some idea but actual facts about the product ingredients from the actual website so that people that never heard of it could see the numbers per say and have an idea. google diesel hpr and you will find more info from other forums from people that have used it for years. those people are the actual results that you want to hear. the reason not too many can elaborate more on this diesel hpr, it is because the fact that is only available in california and texas. again, that is why im trying to see if there are other people that have went this route.


One thing is asking people to share experience, another saying: people are happy to have HPR. Unless you can provide evidence that numerous BMW's made more then 300k and HPFP or turbos are fine, this is nothing but utter BS. 
You are flooding two threads with HPR so I would expect some evidence from you, and not: go find online. 
I have no knowledge of HPR (hence, I would NEVER put in my car) so here is your opportunity to enlighten ignorant people like me.

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## eric_dot_com (Aug 1, 2017)

edycol said:


> One thing is asking people to share experience, another saying: people are happy to have HPR. Unless you can provide evidence that numerous BMW's made more then 300k and HPFP or turbos are fine, this is nothing but utter BS.
> You are flooding two threads with HPR so I would expect some evidence from you, and not: go find online.
> I have no knowledge of HPR (hence, I would NEVER put in my car) so here is your opportunity to enlighten ignorant people like me.
> 
> ...


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

eric_dot_com said:


> edycol said:
> 
> 
> > One thing is asking people to share experience, another saying: people are happy to have HPR. Unless you can provide evidence that numerous BMW's made more then 300k and HPFP or turbos are fine, this is nothing but utter BS.
> ...


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## mafiaman (Jan 28, 2013)

I switched to Propel 2 years ago. There is a station 2 miles from my house. (Calif) Last year it was cheaper or same price as reg diesel. Lately it is .10 -.20 cents more expensive. The biggest difference/reason for me is reduced diesel clatter for 1-2 seconds when coming from a complete stop. I can't hear the diesel clatter with any type fuel after the 1-2 seconds. I also feel a slight performance improvement when accelerating from stop. On the negative side I get slightly worse mpg. I have also tried Diesel Kleen additive to increase cetane, with slight improvement to noise when using regular diesel. Also different stations (Brand) make a difference on noise.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

eric_dot_com said:


> BS, huh ? Hmm ok and yet you already came to a conclusion that is bs but needed evidence. Drive to Texas or California if you really want to find out yourself. Stop always looking for evidence or proof from others in order for you to jump on the wagon.


"Evidence" is a paper published in SAE or other engineering peer-reviewed journals that concludes that HPR is "better" than regular California diesel (or ASTM/whatever). Better means less pollution, better mileage, less clatter, better scar/wear ratings, more Torque or HP, etc. Guess what, nothing you have posted has any of that.

All it has is your anecdotal blatherings saying: "it's good, it's good!". That's not enough for anyone to decide to drive out of their way to spend $2.50 or more per tank (almost always false economy on mileage alone) for no or negligible benefits. We're simply not going to take your word for it, because your word is worthless.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

floydarogers said:


> "Evidence" is a paper published in SAE or other engineering peer-reviewed journals that concludes that HPR is "better" than regular California diesel (or ASTM/whatever). Better means less pollution, better mileage, less clatter, better scar/wear ratings, more Torque or HP, etc. Guess what, nothing you have posted has any of that.
> 
> All it has is your anecdotal blatherings saying: "it's good, it's good!". That's not enough for anyone to decide to drive out of their way to spend $2.50 or more per tank (almost always false economy on mileage alone) for no or negligible benefits. We're simply not going to take your word for it, because your word is worthless.


I am not sure he gets that part. 
It is not only MPG. I have to put anecdotal product in car that I worked hard for. There is reason why there is scientific method and manufacturers approvals.

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## wxmanCCM (Feb 17, 2010)

There have been independent studies verifying the reduced engine-out emissions of RD.

One was conducted by FEV (albeit funded by Neste) that showed a major reduction in engine-out emissions when the engine is optimized to use RD. Otherwise, engine-out PM decreased by 33%, NOx by 9%, HC by 30%, and CO by 24% when the engine is not optimized.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/05/20170517-neste.html

The biggest advantage of RD from an emissions perspective of course is its huge GHG reductions. CARB has certified Neste's RD from used cooking oil at 16.89 g CO2e/MJ, or about 84% reduction compared to fossil ULSD.

More info from USDOE can be found at https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_green.html .


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

wxmanCCM said:


> There have been independent studies verifying the reduced engine-out emissions of RD.
> 
> One was conducted by FEV (albeit funded by Neste) that showed a major reduction in engine-out emissions when the engine is optimized to use RD. Otherwise, engine-out PM decreased by 33%, NOx by 9%, HC by 30%, and CO by 24% when the engine is not optimized.
> 
> ...





FEV study said:


> The emission measurements were carried out before the catalytic converter and diesel particulate filter (DPF).
> 
> The results are dependent on the chosen engine, and the improvements may not all be achieved simultaneously.


Those are some pretty big caveats. To you and me, emissions pre-SCR/DPF don't matter a bit (unless maybe doing deletes). I guess your DPF might last a bit longer...


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## wxmanCCM (Feb 17, 2010)

FaRKle! said:


> Those are some pretty big caveats. To you and me, emissions pre-SCR/DPF don't matter a bit (unless maybe doing deletes). I guess your DPF might last a bit longer...


Plus probably less frequent regenerations since the PM mass is 30% less than regular ULSD.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

My question is how much better than gasoline cars does diesel tech need to be regarding emissions before the public (read: journalists, government) notices and cares? From my standpoint, CARB/EPA are extremely biased against diesel, and health studies do not account for location or real ambient pollution from any vehicle, just direct inside-the-tailpipe measurements. Madness.

PL


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Madness +1

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

dbl tap


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