# BMW quality going south?



## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

Is it me or is the quality of BMW going south? It seems I'm at the BMW Center every month for repairs. Nothing major just small things like AC fan switch, wiper motor, windshield washer, etc... While in the service center, I hear other owners talk about their problems. Consumer Reports had an article that talked about how the German cars are falling behind in quality compared to the Japanese cars. My beater car (1992 Mazda 323 with 160K miles) gives me less trouble than my 2001 330i with 42K miles.


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

Your observation is right, my windshield wiper is flapping, my trim is fading, I had two recalls on my M3, I m worried what would be next, the SMG hydraulics failing?

Also, its so packed at each BMW dealership service center I go to, Westchester, Manhattan and Park Ave..

Compare it to my Honda or Acura, the service center is dead quiet, not many people waiting, service is quick and its done.

BMW looks like it is going south...but....its only from my observations as well.


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## drmwvr (Feb 21, 2003)

Alamo said:


> Is it me or is the quality of BMW going south? It seems I'm at the BMW Center every month for repairs. Nothing major just small things like AC fan switch, wiper motor, windshield washer, etc... While in the service center, I hear other owners talk about their problems. Consumer Reports had an article that talked about how the German cars are falling behind in quality compared to the Japanese cars. My beater car (1992 Mazda 323 with 160K miles) gives me less trouble than my 2001 330i with 42K miles.


No, it's only because you live in "south" Texas :stickpoke  :angel:


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

drmwvr said:


> No, it's only because you live in "south" Texas :stickpoke  :angel:


Hey, San Antonio is great. I look out my office window and overlook the San Antomio Riverwalk & the Alamo.


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

Riuster said:


> Your observation is right, my windshield wiper is flapping, my trim is fading, I had two recalls on my M3, I m worried what would be next, the SMG hydraulics failing?
> 
> Also, its so packed at each BMW dealership service center I go to, Westchester, Manhattan and Park Ave..
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. I have to wait three weeks to get my car in the BMW shop. 
My next car might be a Acura


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## drewpsb70 (Aug 4, 2004)

we really enjoy our BMW ... but ... the quality of the car, the service, the costs and dealing with the dealerships are really not as enjoyable

we have an old 4Runner and it costs nothing to maintain ( 90k service came to USD 1000 ) and the service reps at Toyota are courteous, professional, WARM!, respectful and most importantly provide GREAT customer service

maybe they should go back to their old slogan " who could ask for anything more "

no flaming for this don't get me wrong we really like the BMW but we'll probably not buy another one

the driving experience above everything else is just not worth it because of all the negatives one must put up with when it comes to BMW


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Alamo said:


> Is it me or is the quality of BMW going south? It seems I'm at the BMW Center every month for repairs. Nothing major just small things like AC fan switch, wiper motor, windshield washer, etc... While in the service center, I hear other owners talk about their problems. Consumer Reports had an article that talked about how the German cars are falling behind in quality compared to the Japanese cars. My beater car (1992 Mazda 323 with 160K miles) gives me less trouble than my 2001 330i with 42K miles.


Last time I was in the dealership getting my DBW reflashed, the lady in front of me was incandescent...she said she would never buy another BMW, the car had been nothing but trouble, the whole nine yards... :dunno:


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## drmwvr (Feb 21, 2003)

Alamo said:


> Hey, San Antonio is great. I look out my office window and overlook the San Antomio Riverwalk & the Alamo.


I agree; I have spent many years in the Uvalde area :thumbup:


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

drmwvr said:


> I agree; I have spent many years in the Uvalde area :thumbup:


I lived in Uvalde 1992 thu 1997. My girl was born there. I did some Petro Geology work south of Uvalde.


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

norihaga said:


> Last time I was in the dealership getting my DBW reflashed, the lady in front of me was incandescent...she said she would never buy another BMW, the car had been nothing but trouble, the whole nine yards... :dunno:


Our dealer feeds us Krispy Kreams and Starbucks coffee. Not too smart. Now they have pissed off customers full of caffeine & sugar


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## cantona7 (Apr 8, 2004)

Alamo said:


> Our dealer feeds us Krispy Kreams and Starbucks coffee. Not too smart. Now they have pissed off customers full of caffeine & sugar


 There must be something wrong with those Krispy Kremes you get in Texas, then. :rofl:


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## cantona7 (Apr 8, 2004)

I was just wondering, though, when did you guys start taking your cars in for warranty repairs? I've brought my car in once--to get that BMW Assist part added to my car and also to get my tilt-down mirror and the HK speaker rattle in the door fixed. I'm closing in on 10,000 miles in my car now and haven't brought it back since. This doesn't mean that there isn't anything to fix, as the tilt-down is not working again and I suspect that I have an inconsistent light sensor for the auto headlights. Still, these issues are minor enough that I would rather not part with the car for them to fix it. But I was curious to know if there was any identifiable point in time when your regular visits to the service center started.


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## drmwvr (Feb 21, 2003)

Alamo said:


> I lived in Uvalde 1992 thu 1997. My girl was born there. I did some Petro Geology work south of Uvalde.


Nice...I'm sure you've heard of Batesville then :eeps: (That's were our ranch used to be)


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

Latest Roundel has an article showing JDPower numbers which indicates that BMW quality is not going south. It remained steady through the years. Unfortunately, the rest of the industry improved significantly, so the net result is that BMW perceived quality and ranking slipped.


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

drmwvr said:


> Nice...I'm sure you've heard of Batesville then :eeps: (That's were our ranch used to be)


Yep. South of Uvalde. I did some horizontal directional drilling wells there in the Austin Chalk formation


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

cantona7 said:


> I was just wondering, though, when did you guys start taking your cars in for warranty repairs? I've brought my car in once--to get that BMW Assist part added to my car and also to get my tilt-down mirror and the HK speaker rattle in the door fixed. I'm closing in on 10,000 miles in my car now and haven't brought it back since. This doesn't mean that there isn't anything to fix, as the tilt-down is not working again and I suspect that I have an inconsistent light sensor for the auto headlights. Still, these issues are minor enough that I would rather not part with the car for them to fix it. But I was curious to know if there was any identifiable point in time when your regular visits to the service center started.


I purchased my car Pre-owned certified. The lady that had it before me had a lot of small things go wrong. I asked for the history of the car. I needed a binder


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Here we go again.


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> Latest Roundel has an article showing JDPower numbers which indicates that BMW quality is not going south. It remained steady through the years. Unfortunately, the rest of the industry improved significantly, so the net result is that BMW perceived quality and ranking slipped.


I don't know. I had no problems with my 1997 740i. Maybe they are using different vendors for some of their parts. Dear I say it? They might be outsourcing to eastern European countries


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## BarryH (Oct 13, 2003)

I have an '04 325cic and other than an issue with the "all-down" window switch, the car's been perfect. Not a single defect either cosmetic or mechanical. I owned two Acura's and their dealer network's pretty lame. You may not visit them a lot but you'll go back a couple of times just to get a single problem resolved.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

I've always been under the impression that BMW quality is just 'average.' Most people have the wrong impression that they have Japanese-like reliability, when they never did.

I knew going in that a BMW would need more work than if I bought a WRX or IS300, though luckily I've had less problems with it than my last Mitsubishi.


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## BMNewbie (Sep 12, 2004)

Was just wondering if where your car was manufactured makes a difference in terms of the problems people are having.

I've read that the SA built ones have fewer defects than the German built ones but I assumed that this refered to fresh out of factory. Now starting to wonder if this also holds true in the long run.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

BMNewbie said:


> Was just wondering if where your car was manufactured makes a difference in terms of the problems people are having.
> 
> I've read that the SA built ones have fewer defects than the German built ones but I assumed that this refered to fresh out of factory. Now starting to wonder if this also holds true in the long run.


It could be, but I don't think we'll ever know. BMW would never let this information out if they can help it!


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## cantona7 (Apr 8, 2004)

kurichan said:


> It could be, but I don't think we'll ever know. BMW would never let this information out if they can help it!


 Aren't the SA-built ones all 325s? If so, do 330s have more trouble than their smaller-engined cousins?


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## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

kurichan said:


> > i mean the WRX is a great car, but the ride is extremely harsh
> 
> 
> This makes me wonder if you've been in one, because it simply is not true.


yup, i actually have - my cousin got one after his Integra Type-R was stolen and i've ridden in it a few times. it was rough and very noisy... but you have to remember, my standards being here in the Northeast are probably a lot softer than for you Cali guys. our roads suck and something that rides tolerably out there on the newer highways is probably pretty brutal over here on our crappy roads.

as for the "ricey" comment, i should have been clearer, i meant the exterior look; the interior is not really ricey, just leans towards the sporty/austere side. anyway, the car is what it is, and what you make of it is of course a matter of personal taste. again, maybe in Cali it's comparitively tame-looking, but over here the standards are more conservative luxury/premium-leaning, e.g. Benz, BMW, Lexus... i don't see a lot of WRXs and when i do, it's usually driven by, well, let's just say more "youthful" people.  it's just an image thing in these parts, and it's unfortunate because really at its core the WRX is a superb enthusiast/rally car, no doubt about it. a riced up Civic it certainly is not.



BMNewbie said:


> I've read that the SA built ones have fewer defects than the German built ones.


maybe, but i think they only make 325i E46's in SA so it's moot for 330i's anyway. i think 325i's do tend to be slighly more reliable, but i could be wrong.


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## richard (Apr 3, 2002)

I have an SA build 325i and after 2 1/2 years it's been wonderful. No issues at all...knock wood. That being said, it is pretty much a base model. I've noticed that a lot of the complaints seem to include electronic items that aren't on my car. Tell you the truth I wish they would go back to more basic cars like the 2002 and put all the emphasis on handling and performance and screw the luxury items.


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## BMNewbie (Sep 12, 2004)

dorkus said:


> i think they only make 325i E46's in SA so it's moot for 330i's anyway. i think 325i's do tend to be slighly more reliable, but i could be wrong.


Hi, not too sure about that cos here in Australia ALL E46 sedans come from SA. Only the Compact, Coupe, Cab and M3 come out for Germany.

So based on this SA do make the 330i but not sure if BMWNA import them into the US apart from the 325i.

Here's a link with all the models and place of manufacture for the Australian market. To view place of manufacture click on 'more information' under the specific car.

http://yahoo.drive.com.au/buy/new/search_results.asp?make=BMW&m=BMW||SearchFrom=63&


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## hormazd (Aug 18, 2004)

*its a world gone crazy!*

It seems the entire industry is cutting corners. I drove a Japan made 1990 Accord for 14 years. No problems. Sold it to one one lucky lady for $2200. The car doesn't have a rattle and still cruises at 100mph effortlessly.

Our 2000 American made Honda Odessey has had suspension problems, transmission replaced, two AC compressors replaced and rattles.

The Mercedes E series of 10 years ago still drives like bank vault. The new ones are plagued with quality problems. The M class, back in 2000 when we looked at it had door molding falling off on the showroom floor.

My BMW dealership is the most commited automoble dealership I have ever come across. The customer service is second to none and I have never received a BS answer to any issue. My 2004 545i 6spd does have a few electronic issues, but I am optimistic that they will be resolved next week.

I don't think BMWs quality is going south. I just think they are struggling with some local (US) issues related to transmission through the airwaves.

The common complaints seem to be Radio, Sat, Bluetooth, Assist. All software based problems that will be resolved.


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## jm8571 (Mar 3, 2002)

*Quality Rant ( a little long...sorry)*

Quality is a tough thing to define. I think JDPower tracks initial quality, and I can say my BMW's initial production quality was great, except for my crooked roundel. Now, if we define quality in terms of engineering design reliability...hmmm. I think BMWs are average or below average.

Euro manufacturers are starting to cut corners to be more profitable, a radical change from previous. This is especially problematic considering Euro manufacturers tend to lead the technology curve. I think this is why in overall reliability European carmakers trail even the Americans!

I also believe that overall reliability, industry wide, has decreased, not stayed constant while a few others have improved. This is because (especially American) car companies perceive adding cost to increase reliability doesn't increase the "purchaseability" of a car. There is this notion of discardability. To some extent, I belive BMW has followed this trend. Even Toyota and Honda have, to a much lesser extent. Its sort of like they just have to be better than the other guy. You don't want to be too good, because then you're less profitable.

Profitability aside, right now, NO ONE can touch the Japanese (Toyota and Honda) in reliability. Their design systems tend to avoid cutting corners and also bring in new technologies very slowly. Much more slowly than European or American carmakers. For example, American auto manufacturers are integrating more functions into electronic modules than ever. Honda and Toyota still insist on having all kinds of old, little electronic modules littered throughout their vehicles. Not as profitable, but less risky. Even major exterior changes only brings subtle changes to drivetrain, electronics, etc. Result, the new Accord wasn't really all that new.

One last comment. Everybody has problems when they release a new platform. Everybody. Even Toyota. It takes a year to get the bugs worked out. What really hurts are CHANGES. Everytime something changes, something goes wrong. Every BMW problem can be tracked to some cost save, some design change, some change somewhere.


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Alamo said:


> I don't know. I had no problems with my 1997 740i. Maybe they are using different vendors for some of their parts. Dear I say it? They might be outsourcing to eastern European countries


That's probably not it. BMW was already outsourcing to the Eastern Europe when your car was built.


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## gojira-san (Mar 1, 2004)

jm8571 said:


> Their design systems tend to avoid cutting corners and also bring in new technologies very slowly. Much more slowly than European or American carmakers. For example, American auto manufacturers are integrating more functions into electronic modules than ever. Honda and Toyota still insist on having all kinds of old, little electronic modules littered throughout their vehicles. Not as profitable, but less risky. Even major exterior changes only brings subtle changes to drivetrain, electronics, etc. Result, the new Accord wasn't really all that new.


Yeah you are on to it there IMHO. Larger integrated electronic systems are more prone to failure then smaller systems if the testing strategy is not right. The worst car I ever owned was a Chrysler, and almost all the problems could be traced back to issues with the body control computer. After 3 of them, multiple sensor problem, and issues the dealer could not fix, the service manager confided that "they just can't seem to get the hang of building [the body control computers] correctly"

Most European car companies traditionally took a more conservative, evolutionary approach to building automobiles. Unfortunately for all of us, they've been lured by the promise of cheaper and faster by integrating more complex electronic systems into the cars. I think that until the ability to make those systems more bulletproof comes along, it is just a siren's song.


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

2003 325 coupe, with all this talk about complicated electronics being the downfall of modern BMW's I thought I would chime in. Since new my car has had 6 doors seals, two sunroofs cassettes front control arms and a thermostat. The stereo still rattles, window regulators up to 5 and counting. That amounts to more money thrown at this car than my Maxima and Infinity have had combined in 14 years of driving. All this in the first 18 months. I love my car more than most can understand but if I cant get a door seal that doesn't fail in 6 months I don't see me buying another BMW, this aint rocket science ask around if anyone you know who doesnt have a BMW needed control arms on a 18 month old car. Im to expect this how often? and its gonna cost how much?


To make matters worse my dealer has been woefully inadequate, I found tools and spare parts in my car after one visit, lugs falling off on the next. My last call to my dealer remains unanswered 30 days later. I called from the side on I 95 after finding my lugs falling out 24 hours after he put new tires on. When I contacted NA they said yea they have horrible CSI numbers... WTF? I would love to have the quality of build I had in infinity and the infinity dealer experience in this car and still have it drive like a BMW. 
As a deal breaker Infinity gave me a real loaner, Park Ave BMW gives Ford Focus loaners........ In 6 years with infinity they had to give me a car once. So far I have figured out most of the features of the Ford Focus :thumbdwn: 

I am going to give a different dealer a shot but if my exp. is the norm im out, too many great cars out there now to accept this kind of quality. Who can afford a car like this out of warranty? :dunno:


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

Single ownership observations don't mean much over relatively short periods of time. I've got 7000+ miles with zero problems and I wouldn't dare say that BMW reliability and build quality is outstanding. I can say that my experience is great, but that doesn't mean much to the person who's driving a problem on wheels.

Quality surveys show that BMW's are mid pack, right? Build quality wasn't near the top of my shopping list, performance and driving enjoyment were.

Alex


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## Wagon Man (Oct 17, 2003)

FalconGuy said:


> I am going to give a different dealer a shot but if my exp. is the norm im out, too many great cars out there now to accept this kind of quality. Who can afford a car like this out of warranty? :dunno:


I feel for you regarding Stealer .. my local BMW delaership had bene extremely GOOD & customer focused / oriented ... until Lithia bought them out 2 yrs ago ... they have become true STEALER... SA changed every 3~5 months, none of the salesman I used to know are still around .... Lithis SUCKS.


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## LDV330i (May 24, 2003)

BahnBaum said:


> Single ownership observations don't mean much over relatively short periods of time. I've got 7000+ miles with zero problems and I wouldn't dare say that BMW reliability and build quality is outstanding. I can say that my experience is great, but that doesn't mean much to the person who's driving a problem on wheels.
> 
> Quality surveys show that BMW's are mid pack, right? Build quality wasn't near the top of my shopping list, performance and driving enjoyment were.
> 
> Alex


I bought my first BMW for the same reason that you did. I could not imagine that it could be any worse that 2 previous POS VW I had. I have been extremely pleased when since 1997 my visits to the dealer have been mostly related to regular maintenance. Never had any thing fail in the 7 years I had my 318ti, the only issue was that batteries only lasted an average of 24 months for some unknown reason. With the 330i so far I have had no problems. 

I feel for the people that have issues with their cars. My VW's needed to be at the dealer every 6 weeks, while other people swore that theirs were bulletproof. :dunno:


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## Mantis (Sep 7, 2004)

O wow,
Iwonder if it was a good thing I read this thead or not.I'm looking to buy a 328i tomarrow.One of the 3 I have ready to go.

I owned 2 Nissans and no problems.A maxima Se and a Xterra.They don't ride like a BMW,there not as fast as a BMW but they last as long as you want them 2...


Man.....................


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Get the dealer to print you a service history, explain the service codes, and see whether your 328 is a 'problem car'. Then drive it and make sure the previous owner didn't just ignore a lot of problems. Other than buying an old Civic, that seems like your best bet.



Mantis said:


> O wow,
> Iwonder if it was a good thing I read this thead or not.I'm looking to buy a 328i tomarrow.One of the 3 I have ready to go.
> 
> I owned 2 Nissans and no problems.A maxima Se and a Xterra.They don't ride like a BMW,there not as fast as a BMW but they last as long as you want them 2...
> ...


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## Wagon Man (Oct 17, 2003)

Mantis said:


> O wow,
> Iwonder if it was a good thing I read this thead or not.I'm looking to buy a 328i tomarrow.One of the 3 I have ready to go.
> 
> I owned 2 Nissans and no problems.A maxima Se and a Xterra.They don't ride like a BMW,there not as fast as a BMW but they last as long as you want them 2...
> ...


I wasn;t joking in my earlier post ... my 00 323iT has been rock solid .. my PERCEPTION is that E46 starting 01 & beyond has more grelims than the older ones .. I agree with the other comment that too many new & more complicated electronics might be the source(s0 of the problems ..

328 is definitely 00 max ... is the one you;re considering a 00 or an earlier E36? 00 is the LAST and most matured model yr as for 328 goes ... hence I perosnally will feel more comfy than the newer ones. BUT like the other post suggested ... you MUST look at the service history ... the same goes to any made of (used) car you'll buy anyway.

Happy shopping.


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## Mantis (Sep 7, 2004)

Jlew,
I'm loking at 3 328i's. 2 are 1999 and one is a 2000. I like the newer bdy style over the 98 and eariler 328's.

The car I'm looking at are pictured in my thead.


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## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

FalconGuy said:


> To make matters worse my dealer has been woefully inadequate... When I contacted NA they said yea they have horrible CSI numbers... WTF?
> 
> I am going to give a different dealer a shot but if my exp. is the norm im out, too many great cars out there now to accept this kind of quality. Who can afford a car like this out of warranty? :dunno:


wow, this is Park Ave? i have heard their service is mediocre but didn't know it was THAT bad. i think finding the right dealer in really really key with these cars... especially here in the Northeast where 3's sell like hotcakes and dealers tend to be complacent. i took this into account when picking JMK to buy my 325i and so far my experience has been great, although i have not had to do any service yet (only 1800 miles). if you are willing to take one last shot at a bimmer down the road, i'd highly recommend JMK.


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

dorkus, my next service appointment is with JMK, so far I have heard great things about them. As a result of my earlier posts I have gotten a few emails from other Park Ave customers, apparently I am not the only one getting poor service there.


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