# BMW Now Accused of not Meeting Diesel Nox Standards



## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

*BMW shares skid on report of higher-than-allowed emissions*

BMW AG shares fell 7% early Thursday, after magazine Auto Bild reported one of the German car maker***8217;s model***8217;s emissions on the street were much higher than allowed in Europe under standardized testing conditions

The magazine reported in a pre-release of an article to be published Friday that BMW***8217;s X3 xDrive 20d sports utility vehicle, powered by a diesel engine, emitted more than 11 times more nitrogen oxide during a street test conducted by the International Council on Clean Transportation, a nonprofit research organization, than permitted by the European Union under standardized conditions.

Here it is: Link


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

*Game on!*

Let's see where this one goes but I suspect it won't develop into much past a few days of noise.

I think you will see BMW aggressively defend their cars and emissions.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-that-x3-diesel-s-emission-exceeded-eu-limit

Fingers crossed!


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

Who the heck are these clowns called: International Council on Clean Transportation that failed a Euro X3 20d ???

Aren't emissions standard different from US and Europe ??

At least the X5 diesel passed their tests....


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

BMW denies manipulating or rigging emission tests

English.news.cn 2015-09-24 20:24:07 

FRANKFURT, Sept. 24 (Xinhua) -- German car maker BMW on Thursday said it does not manipulate or rig any emission tests and abides by the law in every country.

The company made the remarks in response to a report by a German weekly Auto-Bild, according to which emissions from BMW's X3 xDrive 20d model exceeded the EU's Euro-6 diesel emissions level by 11 times during an official road test by the International Council on Clean Transportation.

BMW said its vehicles did not have functions to recognize the emissions cycles and that it followed all local testing requirements. Share prices of BMW fell sharply on the report of Auto-Bild, according to local press reports.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) found the software on VW diesel cars showed false emission data. The software installed by Volkswagen in its cars violated the Clean Air Act, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said in a statement last week.

According to the findings of EPA, the software called "defeat device" by the EPA can turn on full emission controls only when the car is undergoing emission tests to make the car meet the legal emission standards, but during normal driving, the car will emit nitrogen oxides at up to 40 times the standard.

"Using a defeat device in cars to evade clean air standards is illegal and a threat to public health," said Cynthia Giles, EPA's assistant administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance Assurance.

The allegations cover roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars sold in the United States by Volkswagen AG, Audi AG, and Volkswagen Group of America since 2008. The models include Jetta, Beetle, Golf, Passat and Audi A3.


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## glangford (Dec 11, 2013)

Pat_X5 said:


> Who the heck are these clowns called: International Council on Clean Transportation that failed a Euro X3 20d ???
> 
> Aren't emissions standard different from US and Europe ??
> 
> At least the X5 diesel passed their tests....


Yea, I can't find the usatoday article to link to, but in an article yesterday it was noted that the X5 had the same emissions on the road and bench. If BMW does have higher emissions on some cars on the road than on the tests you have to blame the test people who designed the test. BMW says they meet all requirements. If the tests are poor, then one has to ask if this type of thing is limited to just diesels.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

It seems that if the 3.0 liter, heavy, U.S. spec' X5d can pass the U.S. NOx requirement, that that a 2.0 liter, lighter X3d would easily pass the less stringent EU NOx requirement.
BMW AG's stock is plummeting this morning. If this turns out to be a false alarm, as logic would suggest, somebody's going to make a whole lot of money. That sort of makes me has suspicions about the BMW X3 story.


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## MotoWPK (Oct 5, 2012)

From my recent post on Bimmerpost;

This statement really muddies the waters:
"Some "manufacturers seem to be focusing on meeting emission limits over the current test cycle while neglecting real-world operating conditions,"ICCT study co-author Vicente Franco said in a statement."

When I first read of the ICCT test results in Europe, it seemed to me this was the point of the tests; a comparison between emissions under test condition and on-road conditions. Then the ICCT test in cooperation with WVU out of which came VW's admission of cheating. These are two very different issues.

That there are differences between results under test and on-road conditions is to be expected - while designed to simulate real world situations, test conditions are always an approximation. That "manufacturers seem to be focusing on meeting emission limits" over the test cycle is an unfair criticism. Of course they focus on this, that is the regulatory requirement.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

I suspect that emissions are like MPG, varying greatly with driving conditions and driving habits. I've read that even German cars' emissions go off the chart at Autobahn speeds. That was the motivation for the Greens to lobby for speed limits on the Autobahn.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

glangford said:


> Yea, I can't find the usatoday article to link to, but in an article yesterday it was noted that the X5 had the same emissions on the road and bench. If BMW does have higher emissions on some cars on the road than on the tests you have to blame the test people who designed the test. BMW says they meet all requirements. If the tests are poor, then one has to ask if this type of thing is limited to just diesels.


It's not specific to diesels and it's really not news that the test doesn't perfectly replicate on road conditions. This has come up in the past and it's definitely not a surprise, on road conditions vary greatly, along with a huge variation in the type of driver. You could significantly increase any cars emissions simply by comparing grandma behind the wheel to some on/off pedal maniac.

The tests may or may not be poor, I have no idea, but the point of the test is to provide a standard for manufacturers to meet and if BMW did that without any trickery then that realistically is the whole point. I'm sure the test designers don' have any misconceptions about whether the test is the perfect representation of real world emissions


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## glangford (Dec 11, 2013)

Hoooper said:


> It's not specific to diesels and it's really not news that the test doesn't perfectly replicate on road conditions. This has come up in the past and it's definitely not a surprise, on road conditions vary greatly, along with a huge variation in the type of driver. You could significantly increase any cars emissions simply by comparing grandma behind the wheel to some on/off pedal maniac.
> 
> The tests may or may not be poor, I have no idea, but the point of the test is to provide a standard for manufacturers to meet and if BMW did that without any trickery then that realistically is the whole point. I'm sure the test designers don' have any misconceptions about whether the test is the perfect representation of real world emissions


The design of the tests is poor as it should be designed to mimick as close to real conditions as possible. I'm in aerospace. We have a saying. Test like you fly, and fly like you test. The same logic should apply to cars.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Hoooper said:


> It's not specific to diesels and it's really not news that the test doesn't perfectly replicate on road conditions. This has come up in the past and it's definitely not a surprise, on road conditions vary greatly, along with a huge variation in the type of driver. You could significantly increase any cars emissions simply by comparing grandma behind the wheel to some on/off pedal maniac.
> 
> The tests may or may not be poor, I have no idea, but the point of the test is to provide a standard for manufacturers to meet and if BMW did that without any trickery then that realistically is the whole point. I'm sure the test designers don' have any misconceptions about whether the test is the perfect representation of real world emissions


Everything you may want to know about the testing regime, both prior, current, and proposed, is in a white paper I uploaded on the VW Emission Cheating thread. It is very technical but they summarize their findings there.

Bottom line is the testing protocols are being improved to more accurately reflect real world driving, and this will impact the emissions significantly. What is clear is that the SCR (with Urea injection) or the combination of SCR and LNT (Low NOx Trap) will be required to meet these more stricter requirements and NOx emission limits in Europe. Obviously the US and Ca. have the strictest limits already.

That report did find that many cars were able to meet it and they mentioned BMW and Mercedes as performing better than the average, in regards to the new test regime.


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

I wonder if the drop in BMW stock would cause the prices of diesel BMWs in the USA ?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Pat_X5 said:


> I wonder if the drop in BMW stock would cause the prices of diesel BMWs in the USA ?


Bad press is always bad for the resale value of the vehicles involved. Even when the story eventually turns out to be not entirely true. The reality of the situation is that it's all a matter of supply and demand. If the demand goes down, which it will if potential customers are exposed to bad news, then the fair market value of the vehicles involved goes down. That has always been the case.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

glangford said:


> The design of the tests is poor as it should be designed to mimick as close to real conditions as possible. I'm in aerospace. We have a saying. Test like you fly, and fly like you test. The same logic should apply to cars.


Real conditions for driving are so wildly varied it would be impossible to create a single test that reflects them. As a result the test should be designed to show "normal" conditions, which depending on who you are and where you drive might be nothing even close to your conditions. I imagine a test protocol for flying could be a lot more accurate, as there is obviously no stop and go traffic or similar difficulties that are specific to on land travel which make for much larger deviations from average. The emissions rating is based on emissions per mile, do anyone who drives really hard, in stop and go traffic, or just doesn't understand the concept of regulating the gas pedal will throw the numbers way off due to their bad mileage


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## Flying Ace (Jan 26, 2015)

Pat_X5 said:


> I wonder if the drop in BMW stock would cause the prices of diesel BMWs in the USA ?


It all depends on the validity and how hard BMW's PR machine works


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Here's the main difference between what has been reported so far on VW and BMW:

Volkswagen deliberately violated the Clean Air Act by installing a defeat device as part of the design of its diesel engines starting back in 2008 on the 2009 models. Defeat devices are specifically prohibited by law! VW's defeat device recognizes when the steering wheel is being used and turns off emission controls.

BMW issued a statement that it does not design its cars to perform differently whether on rollers (testing) or on the road. They are not familiar with the test of a BMW X3 in real road driving conditions that Auto Bild is reporting as being over NOx limits.

A very good summary of the situation here: http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-claims-the-bmw-x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600

*"In summary, BMW is playing by the rules to be competitive, VW is cheating."*

I believe current US rules do not include read road testing. I'm not sure about EU rules, although I think they are scheduled to include real road testing within the next couple of years. Do they include real road testing now for 2015 models?

The WVU story broke more than two years ago. They tested two VW 2L diesels and one BMW X5 3L diesel. Their conclusion was that the X5 passed their tests with results that were legal but the two VWs did not. Then CARB got interested. Then the EPA got interested. Then VW told CARB and the EPA that it was merely a "technical glitch" that they could fix with a recall and installation of a "software patch." VW was given permission to issue a recall letter to California owners of the affected engines in December 2014. It was a rolling recall. Subsequently it was discovered by CARB or the EPA that VW had lied to them and that all of those VW diesel engines had been designed with a "defeat device."

The software patch "didn't work," according to a CARB official. Apparently being lied to didn't go down well with CARB and the EPA, so now VW cannot import any more vehicles with those engines until they have been redesigned and they cannot sell any more vehicles with those engines that are currently unsold. A total freeze on sales because approval of those engines has been officially suspended. VW may have to buy back all of those unsold vehicles from the dealers if they cannot design "a fix" and arrive at a settlement of some sort with current owners and the governmental entities.

There's also the question of whether VW is in violation of EU regulations. Apparently they are because they issued a statement that it's not just the 482,000 cars in the US, another 10.5 million cars worldwide have the same "defeat device" installed as part of their design. If real road testing is used, then VW's current defeat device design won't work.

Someone in Germany is pushing the storyline that "they all do it" as a defense of VW.

P.S. -- Here's a previous case from 1998 where the EPA forced several large truck manufacturers to pay $1 billion in total settlement costs because they had been caught designing their large diesel engines to pass the EPA tests but perform much worse on the highway: http://jalopnik.com/how-the-epa-won-1-billion-from-diesel-cheaters-long-be-1732109485

The EPA accused the manufacturers of being in violation of their specific rule that prohibits designing and engine with a "defeat device." They cited this case in their recent correspondence with Volkswagen.


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## Grubrunner (Jul 13, 2015)

According to the original West Virginia University on emissions, that exposed VW Group, the BMW X5 they tested.... "gave off the exact results they expected."

http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...s-diesel-scandal/story-fnjwucvh-1227542137162


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

The WVU report was issued last year in May 2014. I posted the report on the "VW Accused of Cheating" thread. They were fully expecting to find that these vehicles would meet the emission standards.

My understanding is all of this was to help the ICCT support the implementation of better testing protocols that were more related to real driving conditions. This is detailed in the White Paper the ICCT released earlier this month which I also posted on the same thread.

The surprise was how poorly the two (2) VW vehicles failed the real life NOx emissions while the BMW X5D met them. Yet the VW's were always able to meet the emission tests on the test stand. They were left scratching their heads.

As for the BMW X3d that is now being singled out, I believe it is a 2.0 liter engine and may not use SCR, but the LNT technology, unlike all of the BMW Diesel models that have been released here in the US. I have yet to see any actual test results of this published so could just be speculation or perhaps that test car was malfunctioning at the time it was being tested.

I would expect these car manufacturers have a very well staffed group of engineer's designing and testing all of this kit and "certifying" to management that the vehicles will meet the emission requirements.

Again, mind boggling that VW would program an emissions defeat into their ECU. Adds new meaning to the word "dummkopf"!


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## Grubrunner (Jul 13, 2015)

If it wasn't for the presence of EPA members at the San Diego confrence a few months later, to present their findings, how long would this deception have continued for?

VW made their own bed....


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

BMW hits back on emissions claims


BMW has moved to shore up its reputation after German motoring magazine Auto Bild claimed emissions from one of its cars were 11 times the EU limit, writes Alan Tovey. 

The auto-maker strenuously denied earlier today that it rigged emissions tests. 

Now BMW has pointed out that instead of being criticised in the report from the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) - which also blew the whistle on VW's violations in the US - it was actually praised. 

"The ICCT tested 14 BMWs in the US, and they all passed," a BMW spokesman said. 

The ICCT said the BMW X5 – a larger version of the X3 model – adhered to the standards required, unlike the VW Jetta and Passat, which it also monitored at the same time. 

The ICCT found that the BMW X5 "was generally at or below the standard, and only exceeded it during rural uphill operating conditions". 

"The BMW vehicle's performance on the in-use tests shows that the technology needed to meet the US motor vehicle air pollution emission standards for diesels is available," was the verdict of Francisco Posada, who led the ICCT research project. 

The BMW spokesman said: "We can reassure people we do not manipulate our cars' performance", adding that the company "did not recognise" the test results on its X3 SUV reported by Auto Bild. 

The report by Auto Bild sent BMW shares tumbling earlier today. They are now down around 6.3pc.


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## Flying Ace (Jan 26, 2015)

Update, Autobild has retracted their story.

So Autobild either intentionally or was an unknowingly accomplice to publishing false information and caused the stock price to drop 10%....

Sounds like a classic "Short and Distort" situation to me. BaFin needs to investigate transaction history and throw some people in jail for this.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Flying Ace said:


> Update, Autobild has retracted their story.
> 
> So Autobild either intentionally or was an unknowingly accomplice to publishing false information and caused the stock price to drop 10%....
> 
> Sounds like a classic "Short and Distort" situation to me. BaFin needs to investigate transaction history and throw some people in jail for this.


I fully expected they would have to.

Unfortunately the stock of both MB and BMW will suffer from what VW did, in fact all German makes will do so, even those that don't offer diesels (if there are any?). The stock was already in decline from earlier this year.

I do think diesel will be toast in the USA now. :tsk:Only us die hard fans will keep touting them. Misery loves company!:bigpimp:


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## Flying Ace (Jan 26, 2015)

Flyingman said:


> I fully expected they would have to.
> 
> Unfortunately the stock of both MB and BMW will suffer from what VW did, in fact all German makes will do so, even those that don't offer diesels (if there are any?). The stock was already in decline from earlier this year.
> 
> I do think diesel will be toast in the USA now. :tsk:Only us die hard fans will keep touting them. Misery loves company!:bigpimp:


I'm not kidding, there's something more sinister going on than just a rumor. I think this was done intentionally (the source likely tricked Auto Bild to release it as news for legitmacy) to drive the stock price down. I'll be shocked if the German securities commission BaFin doesn't investigate unusually high volume of trading of options and CS of BMW stock on the Frankfurt exchange.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Autoputzer said:


> I suspect that emissions are like MPG, varying greatly with driving conditions and driving habits. I've read that even German cars' emissions go off the chart at Autobahn speeds. That was the motivation for the Greens to lobby for *speed limits on the Autobahn.*


:fingers: to that!


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