# New BMW gas 4 cyl beats Diesel?



## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

I expect to be in the market for a new car, potentially as early as next week. Had my sights on a used 335D with low miles. Was pretty clear in my mind until I started reading about the new turbo 4 in the F30 3 series. The diesel claims 37 MPG, the new 4 claims 36.7 MPG, essentially the same. Diesel 3 series 0-60 about 5.9 secs, the 4-cylinder something like 5.7 seconds, again essentially the same. Also will cost about $5K-8K less than the diesel (not the same).

Was the whole point of the diesel just eliminated, or is the 37 MPG of the diesel pessimistic?

So confused......


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## GB (Apr 3, 2002)

To some degree, I think it does make the 335d irrelevant, at least in terms of BMW's CAFE goals. If they were to bring over an F30 320d or something similar that could crack 50mpg, then that would make more sense, and also help raise the corporate mpg average. And to answer your question, the EPA mpg figures for the 335d are pretty close to what most people seem to get in real world conditions...

The other alternative is BMW could aim for ///M level performance with the larger diesels, which has been alluded to in the press recently, but only as a rumor at this point.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Depends whose times you are comparing. MotorTrend clocked the d to 60 in 5.3 seconds and a mid 13 sec quarter. The d has been shown many times to be faster than many of the published times.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

As best I can tell, the new 4 comes with the 8 speed auto; it's a shame our engine isn't paired up with that tranny, would love to see how much fuel economy would improve.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

62Lincoln said:


> As best I can tell, the new 4 comes with the 8 speed auto; it's a shame our engine isn't paired up with that tranny, would love to see how much fuel economy would improve.


One other factor is the F30 with the 4 cyl is nearly 500 lbs lighter than a 335D. That is part of the MPG imrovement. The 335D will have normal hydraulic steering, the F30 will be electric. The F30 will have a bigger back seat.

Of course until people really get a F30 in their hands and can put some miles on it, the MPG may be optimistic. The same engine and Trans is 32MPG in the 5 series but that is about the same weight as the 335D, about 500 lbs heavier. Don't think 500 lbs difference is worth 5MPG.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

KeithS said:


> One other factor is the F30 with the 4 cyl is nearly 500 lbs lighter than a 335D. That is part of the MPG imrovement. The 335D will have normal hydraulic steering, the F30 will be electric. The F30 will have a bigger back seat...


How can you compare the weight of an F30 4 cyl with a F30 335d that has no specs released on it yet? How do you know the steering systems would be different?

the 3.0 twinturbo diesel coupled with the 8spd auto would acheive much better FE than the e90 335d.



KeithS said:


> ...The same engine and Trans is 32MPG in the 5 series but that is about the same weight as the 335D, about 500 lbs heavier. Don't think 500 lbs difference is worth 5MPG.


http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/5series/sedan/2010/showroom/technical_data/index.html

The 535d is 105 kg heavier than 528i. 535d is anywhere from 10 to 32% more efficient than the 528i depending on the type of driving.


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## zibawala (May 1, 2006)

Indeed. Any ay, my next 3 or z will be twin turbo 4. But fr x5 Godzilla it is too week to pull. It should do the best for x1 and possibly x3, or how abt mini countryman


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

d geek said:


> How can you compare the weight of an F30 4 cyl with a F30 335d that has no specs released on it yet? How do you know the steering systems would be different?


I'm not comparing F30's, I am extrapolating by comparing the current E90 335D with the new F30 328i. In regards to steering, if I'm not mistaken all new BMWs (excluding M) are now outfitted with electric steering. Not that it's bad, think there is a little more perfection to do to regain the old 'feel'.



d geek said:


> the 3.0 twinturbo diesel coupled with the 8spd auto would acheive much better FE than the e90 335d.


I would suspect the 8 speed would help 0-60, not FE so much. But the 8-speed is lighter than the 6.


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## GB (Apr 3, 2002)

KeithS said:


> In regards to steering, if I'm not mistaken all new BMWs (excluding M) are now outfitted with electric steering. Not that it's bad, think there is a little more prefection to do to regain the old 'feel'.


Having put some miles on an F10 loaner, I'd have no hesitation in calling it "bad" in comparison to the E90 (which itself could be a bit better). But hopefully they've improved it for the F30.

Graham


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## wxmanCCM (Feb 17, 2010)

KeithS said:


> ...I would suspect the 8 speed would help 0-60, not FE so much. But the 8-speed is lighter than the 6.


According to a report recently issued by the National Academies ("Assessment of Fuel Economy Technologies for Light-Duty Vehicles." Committee on the Assessment of Technologies for Improving Light-Duty Vehicle Fuel Economy, Board on Energy and Environmental Systems Division on Engineering and Physical Sciences, National Research Council of the National Academies - Table 7.5, page 109), 8-speed automatic transmissions lower fuel consumption by 3%-5% over six-speed auto transmissions.


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

GB said:


> ...... *If they were to bring over an F30 320d or something similar that could crack 50mpg*, then that would make more sense, and also help raise the corporate mpg average. And to answer your question, the EPA mpg figures for the 335d are pretty close to what most people seem to get in real world conditions...
> 
> The other alternative is BMW could aim for ///M level performance with the larger diesels, which has been alluded to in the press recently, but only as a rumor at this point.


Yes, let's wait and see if a 4 cylinder diesel turbo for the US makes it here after the petrol model is released!

Those 320d in Europe and other countries have specs that make me drool - economy and performance - 50MPG diesels we are waiting.....


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Pat_X5 said:


> Yes, let's wait and see if a 4 cylinder diesel turbo for the US makes it here after the petrol model is released!
> 
> Those 320d in Europe and other countries have specs that make me drool - economy and performance - 50MPG diesels we are waiting.....


I fully agree, but I may need to do something in the next week, which is what started all of this. My son needs a car. One option is he gets my 2000 328i 5-speed (140K miles but over maintained and essentially in like new condition). If that is what happens (decision very soon), I will be car shopping. The increased size of the F30 back seat is just one more factor making the decision difficult. And I keep cars a long time (purchased the 328i new).

Just gathering input, suggestions welcome.


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## GB (Apr 3, 2002)

If you're looking at something to keep longer-term, then your original ideal of a slightly used 335d or maybe a really good deal on a new one would be my suggestion. The last of any BMW series tends to be the most reliable and the 335d is going to end up as a somewhat unique (for the NA market) E90 model variation. Some of the teething problems with the DEF tanks and related systems will likely get resolved over time, if not by BMW then probably the aftermarket. And at this point that doesn't appear to be a major issue anyway. And speaking from experience, just make sure you really want an automatic! 

Good luck with the decisions...

Graham


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

GB said:


> If you're *looking at something to keep longer-term, then your original ideal of a slightly used 335d* or maybe a really good deal on a new one would be my suggestion. * The last of any BMW series tends to be the most reliable and the 335d is going to end up as a somewhat unique (for the NA market) E90 model variation.* Some of the teething problems with the DEF tanks and related systems will likely get resolved over time.......


+1 
The time to grab the last of the 335d is now because they are no longer making them and the resale value coupled with diesel engine will make it worthwhile to have on the long run.

A couple of months ago, I got a great deal on a loaded exec demo 2011 335d - $39995 selling price down 13K from $53K sticker!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

KeithS said:


> I would suspect the 8 speed would help 0-60, not FE so much. But the 8-speed is lighter than the 6.


8 speeds help fuel economy in other cars, I see no reason why it would be any different. Perhaps it is just a weight reason but the selling point is supposedly because of the better gearing view more gears.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

KeithS said:


> I'm not comparing F30's, I am extrapolating by comparing the current E90 335D with the new F30 328i...


OK- I misunderstood and thought you were projecting the performance of the yet to be decided F30 335d.

Have you driven the e90 335d? It would be interesting to drive that and the new 328i back to back



KeithS said:


> ...I would suspect the 8 speed would help 0-60, not FE so much. But the 8-speed is lighter than the 6.


Compare the F10 535d with the higher output engine and 8 spd auto with the e92 335d:
F10 is more powerful, 145kg heavier, half a second quicker AND its FE is 7.6% better on the highway, 22% better combined, and 28% better on the highway. :yikes:

The 8 spd makes a HUGE difference...


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

As for how the F30 328i might compare to an F30 335d-both with 8spd, consider how the the 328i compares to the F10 535d
weight (unladen):
1530.............1800
0-100km/h (s):
6.1.........5.5
urban l/100km:
8.2............6.6-- 328i uses 24% more fuel
exra-urban l/100km:
5.2............4.9-- 328i uses 6% more fuel
combined l/100km:
6.3............5.5-- 328i uses 14.5% more fuel

Now consider that the engine in the 535d (assuming it will also be used in the eventual F30 335d), evidently weighs 105kg more than the engine in the 328i. So that would put the total weight of the F30 335d at around 1635kg, or 165kg less than a 535d. What would a further 9% reduction in weight do to the fuel economy difference between those two drivetrains? :thumbup:


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## Savheagle (Jul 2, 2011)

I do not believe anyone has mentioned the 335d is fun as heck to drive and has a ton of torque ! I would rather have it with the 6 cyl than a 4 banger -- especially if keeping a long time.


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## HoustonScott (Sep 19, 2010)

If you think a 4 cyl gasser compares on paper with 6 cyl diesel you are crazy. Those 425 foot pounds of torque crushes gassers. You can't possibly understand what you are getting in the diesel. 

HS


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## wxmanCCM (Feb 17, 2010)

The European-spec F10 535d not only beats the Euro-spec F10 528i (w/4-cylinder turbo GDI) in 0-100 km/hr (5.5 sec vs 6.3 sec), the 535d has significantly lower fuel consumption (5.4 l/100 km vs 6.5 l/100 km) AND has lower CO2 emissions (142 g/km vs 152 g/km), according to BMW data.

The F10 525d has a 4-cylinder sequential turbo-diesel that has 160 kW (~215 hp), and gets even lower fuel consumption (4.8 l/100 km, 126 g/km CO2), although the 0-100 km time is "only" 7.0 sec. Hopefully, BMW will bring at least one of these diesels to the U.S.


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