# '03 330i PP v. '04 330Ci SP



## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

*'03 330i ZHP v. '04 330Ci SP*

Ready to trade in my '02 330Ci SP for a new 3. Tough choice between '03 330i PP and '04 330Ci SP.

Any opinions as to the likely performance of each? While looks are important, based on pure performance, which do you think is better?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Did you mean '03 330i SP?

The sedan w/o folding seats is the stiffest E46 chassis out there, so it would perform marginally better than the Coupe.

Out of curiosity, why are you looking to trade your '02 on another E46?


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

PP = Performance Package.

I drive about 35k miles a year. If I order a new one within the next week or so, I will be able to trade in my car prior to 50k miles. This will allow a better trade in value as the dealer will be able to re-certify it for another 50k.

I am going crazy trying to decide what to do.


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## dusterbuster (Jan 29, 2003)

i'd really be interested in people's thoughts on this as well. i'm trying to decide between an '03 330i SP and an '04 330ci SP. the performance package on the 330i just doesn't do it for me due to the interior materials (not to mention the price).

i didn't think about how the folding rear seat would make a difference in chassis stiffness, but i guess that makes sense. finally, an answer to my question regarding why bmw would make the folding rear seat an option, instead of standard. still, i don't think they should charge for the folding seats, which i prefer.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

I don't think there is much of a performance difference.

The sedan has a stiffer body, but I don't know if the shock and strut towers move more on the coupe, which is what matters from a performance point of view. The coupe is lower and wider though...

Consider them the same...


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## jrubens (Aug 14, 2002)

1. How much do you want a back seat?
2. What would you do with the additional $ from the Perf. Package? Are there mods you would make to a coupe which would make it a better buy for your needs?
3. How much do you like Imola Red II?
4. Dealer Allocation may be an issue also, depending on when you want the vehicle.


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

I like the idea of the 330i PP as it is supposed to have a different feel due to the swapped camshaft/torque curve. The rear end gearing is also appealing.

If I get the Ci I will likely upgrade the suspension. I am leaning toward the Ci, but then again, I like the i stiffness idea.

One thing that always makes me look at the i is the racing curcuit. Why is it that the vast majority of 3's on the track, with the exception of the M, are i's? Understood they are stripped down and reinforced, but why do you only see i's out there?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Probably because they want the stiffest chassis to start with. I'd DEFINITELY get the ZHP.

And I suggest calling it the HP, as that's what BMW uses. It also helps avoid any confusion with the ACTUAL PP.


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## jrubens (Aug 14, 2002)

luckily, I didn't have this problem, as I knew that I wanted a convertible.....

Given how frequently you turn cars, you might as well try the Performance Package. If you don't like it, you'll be trading it in soon enough.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *
> One thing that always makes me look at the i is the racing curcuit. Why is it that the vast majority of 3's on the track, with the exception of the M, are i's? Understood they are stripped down and reinforced, but why do you only see i's out there? *


I see a nice variety :dunno:


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

I think you may be right on the rigidity issue. "Start with the best" makes sense and has been my suspicion.

If I go with the 330i ZHP I do not have much to do. I would likely pass on the suspension upgrade, would have the increased power, etc.

I still don't know what to do, but appreciate the input.

Anyone else with thoughts? Keep them coming, please!


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *Ready to trade in my '02 330Ci SP for a new 3. Tough choice between '03 330i PP and '04 330Ci SP.
> 
> Any opinions as to the likely performance of each? While looks are important, based on pure performance, which do you think is better? *


I dont know why there is a discussion. This is easy since you said

"based on pure performance"

330iPP assuming you mean ZHP will have the best performance. It is a half second faster then the normal 330i. The 330Ci is probably barely faster if any then the 330i so the ZHP will be faster.

Order a stripper ZHP without a sunroof and fold down seats for maximum performance.

Jeff


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

Nate, keep that seat belt tight!

In particular, I was referring to professional racing, such as that seen on Speed Channel. The vast majority are i's.


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

Thanks Jeff.

No fold downs and sun roof a definite. (My current Ci is with no sun roof as well for the same reason.)


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *Thanks Jeff.
> 
> No fold downs and sun roof a definite. (My current Ci is with no sun roof as well for the same reason.) *


Too lazy to look up the specs but I am also assuming the i is not much heavier then the Ci.


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## bren (Jul 1, 2002)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *I drive about 35k miles a year. If I order a new one within the next week or so, I will be able to trade in my car prior to 50k miles. This will allow a better trade in value as the dealer will be able to re-certify it for another 50k.
> 
> I am going crazy trying to decide what to do. *


50k on a 1 year old car :yikes: .....I can't imagine the depreciation hit you are taking on trading that in 

I've got an idea for you, how about a Civic Hybrid and an E36 M3 for the weekends :angel:


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## jrubens (Aug 14, 2002)

Hybrids are actually better for city driving.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Jeff_DML said:


> *Too lazy to look up the specs but I am also assuming the i is not much heavier then the Ci. *


For '01 it was lighter. Since then, it's been a couple lbs. heavier for some unfathomable reason.


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

bren said:


> *50k on a 1 year old car :yikes: .....I can't imagine the depreciation hit you are taking on trading that in
> 
> I've got an idea for you, how about a Civic Hybrid and an E36 M3 for the weekends :angel: *


According to Kelly Blue Book it should not be too bad. Also, fortunately, I am pretty good at negotiating the deal and have an exceptional finance rate on only a portion of the purchase price.

I have faced the facts regarding my long commute and have accepted them. I love to drive, particularly my 330Ci, and realize I have to spend more on my car because of the commute.

If I am going to drive 100+ miles a day, it might as well be in a proper ride!


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

I have to ask this: Why don't you put 200K on your car, and then sell it for whatever you get in four years? That has to be a lot better than trading in every year...


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

I am leaning toward the '03 330i ZHP. Would anyone like to try to convince me on the '04 330Ci SP?

Let's hear those opinions!


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *I have to ask this: Why don't you put 200K on your car, and then sell it for whatever you get in four years? That has to be a lot better than trading in every year... *


Just what I was thinking. :dunno:


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *I have to ask this: Why don't you put 200K on your car, and then sell it for whatever you get in four years? That has to be a lot better than trading in every year... *


I am with you on this! I am doing this for this round only as I will cut my commute within the next year or so. (This is a one time deal.)

My hope is a M3 within the next two to three years, with whatever I get now as the daily driver.


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## DrBimmer (Dec 23, 2001)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *PP = Performance Package.
> 
> I drive about 35k miles a year. If I order a new one within the next week or so, I will be able to trade in my car prior to 50k miles. This will allow a better trade in value as the dealer will be able to re-certify it for another 50k.
> 
> I am going crazy trying to decide what to do. *


Don't worry about that. The dealer can Certify a car that is up to 4 yrs old or has up to *60,000* miles. Little loophole in the BMW CPO guidelines.

And FYI, the Performance Package is not referred to as PP, that is the Premium Package. The Performance Pack is either the HP or ZHP (its ordering code).

Which dealer are you dealing with?


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## DrBimmer (Dec 23, 2001)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *According to Kelly Blue Book it should not be too bad. Also, fortunately, I am pretty good at negotiating the deal and have an exceptional finance rate on only a portion of the purchase price.
> 
> I have faced the facts regarding my long commute and have accepted them. I love to drive, particularly my 330Ci, and realize I have to spend more on my car because of the commute.
> 
> If I am going to drive 100+ miles a day, it might as well be in a proper ride! *


You can't go by KBB. No dealer is going to be happy about getting a 2002 with 50k miles, so they will screw you on trade. Around here, they use www.galves.com. You'll notice it is MUCH lower than KBB. :dunno:


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

DrBimmer said:


> *Don't worry about that. The dealer can Certify a car that is up to 4 yrs old or has up to 60,000 miles. Little loophole in the BMW CPO guidelines.
> 
> And FYI, the Performance Package is not referred to as PP, that is the Premium Package. The Performance Pack is either the HP or ZHP (its ordering code).
> 
> Which dealer are you dealing with? *


I will give Inskip a shot, though I am sure they will not make it happen with me. (I won't even get into what happened last round.)

My current 330Ci is through AutoCenter, Middletown, but I will go wherever I get the best deal. (I work outside of Boston, so I am comfortable purchasing from that area.)


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

DrBimmer said:


> *You can't go by KBB. No dealer is going to be happy about getting a 2002 with 50k miles, so they will screw you on trade. Around here, they use www.galves.com. You'll notice it is MUCH lower than KBB. :dunno: *


I will look into Galves.

I am not so sure they will react as you have suggested. Yes, 50k on a 2002, but it is still a 2002 reselling in 2003. That has to be worth something. Also, all higway miles. (I could certainly be wrong. Time will tell...)

Thanks.


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## DrBimmer (Dec 23, 2001)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *I will give Inskip a shot, though I am sure they will not make it happen with me. (I won't even get into what happened last round.)
> 
> My current 330Ci is through AutoCenter, Middletown, but I will go wherever I get the best deal. (I work outside of Boston, so I am comfortable purchasing from that area.) *


Its the same company anyways, to the money goes to the same person. He doesn't care which one you buy it at. 

I've had no problems at Inskip, but I can see the point you made.


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## DrBimmer (Dec 23, 2001)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *I will look into Galves.
> 
> I am not so sure they will react as you have suggested. Yes, 50k on a 2002, but it is still a 2002 reselling in 2003. That has to be worth something. Also, all higway miles. (I could certainly be wrong. Time will tell...)
> 
> Thanks. *


That is ALOT of miles for a car that is one model year old. They might not be as bad as I say they are, but they will still be reluctant. 20-30k miles is pushing it on a one year old car, but 50k will be a big problem. They are going to have big problems on that car.

Don't hold me to it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they wholesaled that car and didn't even bother trying to sell it.


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

DrBimmer said:


> *Its the same company anyways, to the money goes to the same person. He doesn't care which one you buy it at.
> 
> I've had no problems at Inskip, but I can see the point you made. *


Yes, same company, but Inskip would not match the price AutoCenter offered. I walked in a said, "I have this offer from AutoCenter. I live 2 miles from you and would prefer to buy the car from you. Match the price and you have a sale right this minute." They would not match the price. Ridiculous!


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

DrBimmer said:


> *That is ALOT of miles for a car that is one model year old. They might not be as bad as I say they are, but they will still be reluctant. 20-30k miles is pushing it on a one year old car, but 50k will be a big problem. They are going to have big problems on that car.
> 
> Don't hold me to it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they wholesaled that car and didn't even bother trying to sell it. *


They will be selling me a new car, plus making cash on the trade once sold. I have no question they will be able to sell my car for a nice profit. Hopefully, they will be willing to work with me. If not/I can't get a reasonable sum, I will sell on my own or keep my current ride. (I will not let myself get screwed.)


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

I've been juggling this same question also. I've noticed on the coupes though that the door windows are "frameless" My old integra has a similar design and my problems with wind leak and noise at high speeds was never really fixed. The sedan on the other hand has the typical framed door windows. Does the 330ci ever have this problem like the integra did?


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

magbarn said:


> *I've been juggling this same question also. I've noticed on the coupes though that the door windows are "frameless" My old integra has a similar design and my problems with wind leak and noise at high speeds was never really fixed. The sedan on the other hand has the typical framed door windows. Does the 330ci ever have this problem like the integra did? *


No question, the 330Ci does have wind noise through the windows; at times significant. The no-frame doors are a factor.

Still a tough decision. What to do, what to do?


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## dusterbuster (Jan 29, 2003)

Jeff Waldman said:


> *No question, the 330Ci does have wind noise through the windows; at times significant. The no-frame doors are a factor.*


ugh, not what i wanted to hear. but then again, it can't be any noiser than my miata roadster, which has the same type of windows plus the ragtop.


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## Jeff Waldman (Jan 30, 2003)

dusterbuster said:


> *ugh, not what i wanted to hear. but then again, it can't be any noiser than my miata roadster, which has the same type of windows plus the ragtop. *


Don't worry about it. For the most part, it is not an issue. At times, depending on speed, wind direction, and wind speed, you will get a good amount of noise. Again, for the most part, not a big deal.


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