# MP3 Players: iPod vs iRiver



## GM (Aug 6, 2003)

Thinking of getting a hard-drive MP3 player for my daughter; any thoughts on which is better between the iPod and the iRiver? She doesn't drive a BMW, so connectivity to her car stereo will have to be via FM modulator. Thanks.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

GM said:


> Thinking of getting a hard-drive MP3 player for my daughter; any thoughts on which is better between the iPod and the iRiver? She doesn't drive a BMW, so connectivity to her car stereo will have to be via FM modulator. Thanks.


I have one of these coming in a couple of days. It is very compact, it has an FM Radio built in, 5GB of storage, works with Windows Media Player 10, and has a consumer replaceable battery. Offers much more than IPOD Mini for the same $$.

http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=213&subcategory=214&product=10795


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## zoofa (Dec 11, 2004)

Caveat would-be emptor: I'm a mac person  

That said, if you really love your daughter, you'll get her an iPod  As someone who owns a BMW, you clearly value quality, beauty, and intangibles in products more than you value price. So here's what I'd say:

The iPod is aesthetically superior to every other mp3 player on the market. It has clean, elegant lines, is uncluttered, and is very functional. The other players try to look cool with a lot of bells and whistles and various textures and colors, but it just makes them cluttered and clumsy to use. The iPod controls are very intuitive, and the click wheel allows you to scroll through a very large music collection easily, much more easily than any other marketed player. Likewise, the screen is easy to read, large (except on the Mini, where everything is small), and the backlight is very good. Some other players have confusing, small screens. 

Furthermore, the iPod is not substantially more expensive than the iRiver or other players. For $299, you can get a 20GB iPod, which holds about 5,000 songs (we're talking 2 weeks of continuous listening). It's easy to interface with cars using casette adapters, FM transmitters, or auxiliary audio inputs (if the car has one). None of the other players have anything better to offer in this category.

So in sum, you can either buy your daughter an iPod or a knockoff iPod. The real thing is more elegant, more functional, less confusing, and interfaces well with any car stereo. Granted, it is more expensive (perhaps $40-50 on average, depending on who you compare to). However, isn't that amount of money worth it if you're getting something better? It's like cheaping on a BMW 3er to buy an Accord instead. Sure they both work fine, and look OK, the stats look similar on paper, and the Accord is less dough, but if you experience it the choice is crystal-clear :thumbup: 

If your daughter is a college student, you can buy the iPod from Apple education online and save $30.

I tried to make this thread as BMW-related as possible, but it's still kinda music-y...time for self-punishment uch:


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## Bob Clevenger (Dec 17, 2004)

Go to www.dapreview.com and you can learn more about Digital Audio Players than you ever thought possible.

Personally, I like the Rio Karma because it can play so many different formats.

Secondly (or is that thirdly?), Is she going to be using this as a portable player or just in the car? What kind of car is it -- more importantly, what kind of stereo Head Unit does it have? There are some very good options for car players that will work for some but not for others. Is she into the technology or is she more of an "I just want to push the 'play' button" kind of person? Does she value style over performance or _vice-versa_?


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

My own caveat: I went out of my way specifically to get a discontinued iRiver iHP-140 player a few weeks ago.  The following opinions apply mostly to the first generation hard-drive players from iRiver, and the replacement generation's execution seems rushed, but consider this an iPod-versus-everybody-else post...



zoofa said:


> The iPod is aesthetically superior to every other mp3 player on the market. It has clean, elegant lines, is uncluttered, and is very functional.


Debatable. An Accord has very clean, elegant, and uncluttered lines too. Personally, I think iPods are too plain. The outlines of the front of the iPod consists of a rounded outer rectangle, a rounded inner rectangle, and two concentric circles. :snooze: 



> The iPod controls are very intuitive, and the click wheel allows you to scroll through a very large music collection easily, much more easily than any other marketed player.


I haven't used an iPod extensively, but the scroll wheel I can definitely see is good for business.



> It's easy to interface with cars using casette adapters, FM transmitters, or auxiliary audio inputs (if the car has one). None of the other players have anything better to offer in this category.


My iRiver has headphone-out, line-out, and optical-out to stereos that have optical-in. It also has aux-in, optical-in, and mic-in (supports powered and unpowered mics). 

Truth be told, any player can interface with a car. But, iRiver is the only company I know of that offers remote controls that feature an LCD display. This lets the driver or passenger get the full use of the player without a custom interface, mount, or having the player sitting in the passenger compartment.



> The real thing is more elegant, more functional, less confusing, and interfaces well with any car stereo. Granted, it is more expensive (perhaps $40-50 on average, depending on who you compare to). However, isn't that amount of money worth it if you're getting something better? It's like cheaping on a BMW 3er to buy an Accord instead. Sure they both work fine, and look OK, the stats look similar on paper, and the Accord is less dough, but if you experience it the choice is crystal-clear :thumbup:


For me, I chose the iRiver for the same reasons I chose BMW: performance and enthusiast features. My particular player [vs. the 4th-gen iPod]:

It features an *in-line remote with a back-lit LCD display*. This is probably the main reason I chose this player. A remote with display means you can keep the main unit concealed in your bag, or in the glovebox, and you get all of the main controls accessible with the remote.
Reviews give the iHP *high marks for sound quality*, with a disclosed SNR of > 90 dB [Apple won't disclose the iPod's SNR], though if you want the best sound quality, the Creative Zen is the current quality benchmark (with a 98 dB SNR).
It uses a *lithium polymer battery rated for 16 hours* of playback and charges in 3 hours [lithium ion, 12 hours / 4 hours]. Another plus for some Creative players is a consumer-replaceable battery, for when the rechargeable eventually starts to lose it. iRiver and iPod batteries can be replaced, but require a little reading, shopping online, and a screwdriver.
It *mounts as a USB hard drive* on Windows XP/2K boxes with no drivers. True plug-and-play using USB 2.0 or USB 1.1.
It can make *quality audio recordings*. There's an internal mic with a very wide sensitivity range (I've tested it in a variety of conditions, and if your ear can hear what someone is saying across a large space, like a lecture hall, the internal mic will pick it up, with surprisingly good bass response). The player also came with an external lavalier clip-on mic for more convenient voice recording. You can record from external mics, line-in, and optical-in sources, using WAV format or on-the-fly MP3 encoding (constant bit rates from 40 kbps up to 320 kbps).
It supports the *open-source, high-quality Ogg Vorbis format*, in addition to MP3, WMA, and WAV.
The *upgradeable firmware* has active iRiver and third-party support (firmware and database software).
It has *FM tuning* (which I admittedly will probably never use).
It's *not white*.  (many players can be skinned with accessory faceplates)

The short of it is that although iPods are very popular and trendy, they are not the ultimate player. There are plenty of pros/cons and plenty of improvement that can be done on all existing players out there, and you should try to do homework reading online reviews and also trying out features in-store (and soliciting opinions from us  with salt).

This long-winded post being said, without knowing anything else about your daughter, she'd probably like the iPod. :rofl:

(Sorry for the crappy pictures. I'll try to take some better ones later.)


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Yeah, the whole iPod craze has to go. As far as intuitive, I would not say so. If you pick it up for the first time, you won't find your way around immediately. There is no stop button for example.

Would you call a BMW that does not have a self replaceable battery a good design? How about if you had to dismantle the entire car to get to the battery? How about if you had to spend 1/4 or 1/3 the price of your BMW to send it in to have the battery changed by BMW? And what if you had to do this every 18 months? A non consumer replaceable battery is a black eye in consumer products design to me.

*Zen Micro*: Better Sound, good controls, more features (FM tuner, equalizer, sound recording built in, FM recording, good battery life, replaceable battery, remote option...

*iPod*: Scroll wheel.


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

FWIW: I dont onew a player (yet)

I have to say that to my eye the iPod is hands down the best looking player on the market. However, I think it will start to look dated in the next year or so.

I think the new Rio Carbon is a great looking product and gives the iPod a run for its money from a purely astehetic standpoint. However the relativly small hard disk competes more with the mini than the standard iPod and is priced accordingly.

But if I were to guess. A girl at that age (or any age for that matter) is pretty fashion concious and anything other than an iPod just wouldnt carry the hipness factor she may crave.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/16/technology/circuits/16musi.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/16/technology/circuits/16stat.html


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## oarnura (Oct 15, 2004)

*I vote ipod*

I own one and I would give it my full recommendation. I don't know how old your daughter is but ipod is the "in thing now" and she will really appreciate it.

The one thing about the ipod is the user interface. Yes it doesn't have a stop button but only because it doesn't need one. It is simple, elegant and beautifully crafted and extremely easy to use just plug and play. The sound quality is very good, though the headphones it comes with are so-so. If you want audiophile quality sound you would have a dedicated headphone amp and a electrostatic head set any way. It takes a few seconds to master the UI of an ipod.

I haven't delved into the music player market after I got the ipod but I am sure there are many good players out there.

The one big plus is the sheer amount of accessories that are available for the ipod. It is like the windows of music players.

Remember, you are buying for your daughter and if she is a teen she already wants an ipod.


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

I have the iriver, I can record, you Ipod users CAN'T!!!...

SO i record all digital music right off off Itunes radio and Winamp radio, right into my Mp3 players..

ipod users cant, congrats on purchasing an iCant

:rofl:


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## Blax (Apr 8, 2004)

Well despite what has been said above, Apple has the whole space sewn up. I know people who have bought a Rio/Dell/etc and then ditched them for an iPod. Apple has cornered the market in digital music like Microsoft has for computing...and they are using it to their advantage.

Getting a non iPod player is like buying your daugther a Betamax instead of a VHS or an Intellivision instead of an Atari. Furthermore, to paraphrase zoofa, if you are not driving an Accord, then don't get a Rio.

With Mini's Rivals, More Is Sometimes Less
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/16/technology/circuits/16stat.html
http://news.com.com/With+Minis+rivals,+more+is+sometimes+less/2100-1041_3-5495422.html

Having said that, whatever you get for Christmas will be outdated within two weeks. Apple knows that they can not make Christmas iPods quick enough, so are not introducing new products until January 11th when demand will not be as stong. They already have a war chest of micro iPods (smaller than the mini) waiting in the wings. My money says that they will also be introducing a video iPod and video iTunes store in January, and also look out for the Apple/Motorola cell phone which will also play iTunes music.


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## Mika (Oct 8, 2003)

I have a Rio 500 from about 4 years ago. At the time Win 98 was the operating system du jour. I upgraded to Win XP two years ago. Rio went bankrupt and hasn't released new support for Win XP. I can't install the software designed for 98 on my XP machine. I havent been able to change music on the darn thing for 2 years.  

Something to think about - the company behind the product and their financial stability. The choice is obvious - Apple.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

oarnura said:


> Yes it doesn't have a stop button but only because it doesn't need one.


Does it at least have pause? 



oarnura said:


> It is like the windows of music players.


That's irony. :rofl: It's like Windows in terms of market share, but beyond that, it's still Apple and a little Sony (well-executed, but a predilection to proprietary formats and vertically-integrated products/services).



Blax said:


> Getting a non iPod player is like buying your daugther a Betamax instead of a VHS or an Intellivision instead of an Atari.


Maybe you know this, but in case you don't, Betamax was regarded as being technologically superior to VHS and its reasons for losing to VHS aren't really comparable to iPod's success.

I have never played an Intellivsion console, but from what I can tell, it was also technologically superior to Atari (as these screenshots hint). Another site states: "In one corner you had Atari who was owned by Warner Communications with their deep pockets, tons of arcade game translations and a head start. In the other corner you had the more graphically superior Intellivision who was owned by Mattel."

So yes, I suppose you could say buying other players that have better features than an iPod is like choosing the technologically-superior underdogs of the past, but at the same time not, because there isn't really a format war. And if there is a format war, Apple's on the wrong side of it in the analogy.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

FenPhen said:


> So yes, I suppose you could say buying other players that have better features than an iPod is like choosing the technologically-superior underdogs of the past, but at the same time not, because there isn't really a format war. And if there is a format war, Apple's on the wrong side of it in the analogy.


The interface, seamless computer integration, and controller on the iPod are superior to its competitors, other features notwithstanding. Additionally, the AAC (".m4a") file format is far superior to MP3 or WMA on the quality:bitrate ratio. So to equate the iPod to VHS vs. a superior Betamax competitor is a flawed analogy, IMO.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

Plaz said:


> The interface, seamless computer integration, and controller on the iPod are superior to its competitors, other features notwithstanding.


I've read conflicting reports about seamless computer integration. Some hard-drive players (iRiver's, for example) offer plug-and-play without drivers, whereas the iPod requires software (correct me, please). iRiver units are exactly like using a USB flash/pen drive.

Being a usability guy, I do think a jog wheel with variable-speed sensitivity is a good design (VCR remotes have had them since the mid-'90s).



plaz said:


> Additionally, the AAC (".m4a") file format is far superior to MP3 or WMA on the quality:bitrate ratio. So to equate the iPod to VHS vs. a superior Betamax competitor is a flawed analogy, IMO.


I agree that it's a flawed analogy. However, AAC is not the only "better-than-MP3 codec" out there.

AAC beats MP3 on quality:size at low bit-rates. So does Ogg Vorbis. Audiophiles say Vorbis and AAC are close, and from what I've read, Vorbis has an edge based on super-hearing tests and spectrum analysis. If you go to high quality settings, the difference between MP3, AAC, and Vorbis blurs, and you have to do ABX testing (blind testing) to find out which one sounds better to you.

The advantage MP3 has is de-facto support. Any digital audio device will support MP3, now and for a very long time, and you can always take pieces of your music collection to other players (and share :eeps: ). MP3 also uses less processing power, which extends battery life. Pros and cons.

Ogg Vorbis is trying to push into industry as well, with no licensing and patent hurdles to deal with, since it is completely open-source. (Though I don't doubt MPEG-4 AAC will stick around and succeed MP3.)

One nice feature Vorbis has, that I don't know if AAC has, is the ability to do lossless quality reduction. That is, you can encode your collection at a high-quality setting (high bit-rates) and then do a quality reduction for use in portables, downloads, streaming, or whatever, without re-encoding the audio. (As opposed to doing a lossy compression on a lossy source.)


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## zoofa (Dec 11, 2004)

Riuster said:


> I have the iriver, I can record, you Ipod users CAN'T!!!...
> 
> SO i record all digital music right off off Itunes radio and Winamp radio, right into my Mp3 players..
> 
> ...


The point is moot; if you want to record music off Itunes radio or Winamp radio, there are any number of software programs which do it easily and simply. Not that you are supposed to do this sort of thing... :tsk: 

I respectfully disagree on your comments on intuitiveness. The iPod is so simple and uncluttered that you really can't help but see that play/pause, menu, forward, and back are the four buttons. Seems quite clear to me how to work the thing. The "enter" button in the center is logical as well.

I tend to think that most of the imitation players (and they are imitations, the sincerest form of flattery, because the iPod was the first successful hard drive music player) are kinda like riced-out cars...they have a lot of flashy colors, bells and whistles, rubberized this and 4 outputs that and what have you. As with cars, some people like this, and some people don't, it's a matter of taste. I happen to find the simple two rectangles and two circles school of design more tasteful than the super bells and whistles design.

But I have to say, if you're buying it for your daughter, there is only one cool one, the iPod. It's what everyone wants (modulo a few die-hard supporters of other models), and she will be very excited to get it. I doubt she will ask you for optical out, recording capability, or s/n ratio (which is just dandy, by the way, from my experience). Some people do care about these things, but for the vast majority they are unimportant.

Finally, the battery...I know people have had the complaint about the battery not being user serviceable. I agree, that is a design flaw. However, the dead-every-18-months thing is a load of hooey. Sure, some have died; show me a product that never fails. I have had my 1st gen iPod since they initially came out 3 years ago, and it's only had one small problem. One of the buttons died about 10 months in, so I mailed the iPod in and they replaced it for free and sent it back. It's been used almost every day since then, no problems at all.


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

This forum has the most outdated baby boomers I know, I bet half of you guys dont even know where MP3 was created and what it really means..,just because the mass has the ipods..you guys follow....just follow the herd...but nobody really does a intuitive research.

Go to www.mobilemag.com

How about the creative Zen...or the Zen Micro..I use creative products and they are fanatistic...

Now please do a search for all you IPOD users on what MP3 stands for

...simpletons....absolute simpletons...


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

Riuster said:


> This forum has the most outdated baby boomers I know, I bet half of you guys dont even know where MP3 was created and what it really means..,just because the mass has the ipods..you guys follow....just follow the herd...but nobody really does a intuitive research.
> 
> Now please do a search for all you IPOD users on what MP3 stands for
> 
> ...simpletons....absolute simpletons...


layer 3 of mpeg1 :dunno:


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## zoofa (Dec 11, 2004)

Riuster said:


> This forum has the most outdated baby boomers I know, I bet half of you guys dont even know where MP3 was created and what it really means..,just because the mass has the ipods..you guys follow....just follow the herd...but nobody really does a intuitive research.
> 
> Go to www.mobilemag.com
> 
> ...


mpeg-1 layer 3. the mpeg stands for "motion picture experts group". I resent being called a simpleton; I don't think I've levelled any personal attacks against you, Ruister. We have a difference of opinion, I don't like your player, you don't like mine, fair enough, but no need to get personal, hombre... 

As far as the iPod newbie thing goes, I've owned one since November '01, when they first came out (and I've been ripping CDs to mp3 on my computer since about '99, running SoundJam on my old iMac running 8.6). I gotta say, I was somewhat disappointed when the iPod became such a huge mass-market success because the white earphones were no longer an exotic curiosity 

My point is, since you don't know me, please don't make unkind blanket generalizations about what I do and don't know about players, mp3, or computing. It doesn't make people see things your way, it just makes them mad.

And since when does being 23 qualify me as a baby boomer?


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Riuster said:


> This forum has the most outdated baby boomers I know, I bet half of you guys dont even know where MP3 was created and what it really means..,just because the mass has the ipods..you guys follow....just follow the herd...but nobody really does a intuitive research.
> 
> Go to www.mobilemag.com
> 
> ...


People are just slaves to fashion. There was also a stampede at one time for those arse-ugly Cabbage Patch Kids.


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