# latest road&track....handling issue..M3 owners...



## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

did anyone else read this with a tightlipped sort of grimace?

they compared a mazda MP3, zo6 vette, M3, 911TT, evo VII, and ferrari 360?

the M3 finished 7th out of 8 cars in terms of handling. am wondered how M3 owners feel about the critiques of the car and the handling issues brought up by the assembled road testers?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

The M3 is ultimately a little too useful to be a true sports car.  If you eliminated all the stuff that makes it a usable daily driver, I'll bet it would kick the asses of all those two seaters. As for sedans like the Evo VII... They may have four doors, but I wouldn't call them usable.


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

Hold on... Didn't Car and Driver do a "Best Handling Car > $30K" comparo a few years back in which the E36 M3 BEAT all contenders including the then-current exotics? As a matter of fact, they did. And the M3 won BY A LARGE MARGIN.

Hmmm.....


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

Isn't R&D known for dastardizing BMWs? Or was that Automobile:dunno:?For C&D, they compare everything to every BMW model. 7th place ? Yes, the E36 M3 beat out the F355 and NSK, and some others I can't recall.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

To be fair, TD, there is a LOT more out there for the purist sports car driver right now. If I wanted absolute handling, I'd buy a WRX, put in an STi 6 speed transmission and tweak the turbo. There is NOTHING out there that compares to the combination of handling, practicality and refinement of the M3. That said, there are plenty of cars that can outhandle it these days, at the cost of some of the other wonderful M3 attributes.


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

For the record, it was the September 1997 issue of Car and Driver.

Here's the M3-specific section of THAT article (cut and paste)-

BMW M3. 

A flawless handler. 

BMW's M3 is one of the least-expensive cars in this group. It's also the tallest and narrowest car and has the most-usable rear seat. Its first-place finish proves that superb handling does not require exotic-car packaging or exotic-car prices. 

The M3's cockpit works naturally. The driver's seat offers a commanding view of the road and the hood's corners. Hands fall instinctively to the steering wheel and shifter, as do feet to the pedals. Heel-and-toeing is possible, and a dead pedal is included. An adjustable steering wheel would have been nice, as well as more lateral support, but these issues didn't get in the way of our adoration. 

The M3 possesses uncanny roadgoing ability. This is the most-agile car here. The steering eagerly bites into corners and is alive with feel. "Constantly talking to my fingers," wrote Csere. It latches onto a line in corners as if on a mission from God. Webster: "Rolls gracefully into curves at a constant rate and goes right where you point it." 

The M3 covers for you. The suspension shrugs off bumps, swells, and off-camber depressions without upsetting the line. Not once did any driver cross it up. Smith: "Overcooked a corner, and the BMW's forgiving nature made it interesting rather than scary." Even at the hairy edge of traction, the M3 is accepting of further driver input, which builds tremendous confidence. Unlike the Acura NSX, the Dodge Viper, or even the Ferrari F355, you feel free to explore the M3's limits without fear that something awful awaits if you miscalculate. 

The M3 is like one of those mules that pull tour duty in the Grand Canyon, year after year: It isn't capable of a misstep. This car lets you seek out its limits quicker and more confidently than any of the other cars here. If that doesn't make for a winning handler, we don't know what does. 

.... So, what's the best-handling car at any price? ...It's an eight-horn salute to the BMW M3 as "the best-handling car."


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

Hmmmmm...let's see....September 1997 to May 2002.

Elapsed time...oh, around 56 months, or 5 1/2 years. 

Why are we so surprised that our pride and joy, an E36 M3 that was once the 'king of the hill' in terms of handling at any price, may no longer be so? And besides, I suspect (haven't read the article), that they compared an E46 M3.

Big deal.


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

hts said:


> *Hmmmmm...let's see....September 1997 to May 2002.
> 
> Elapsed time...oh, around 56 months, or 5 1/2 years.
> 
> ...


You're so slow it's scary.

Go play on a G35 board.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> You're so slow it's scary.
> 
> Go play on a G35 board. *


nice comeback (as usual) tom. what a surprise. why don't you try actually responding to the point someone makes rather than dragging it down to the gutter with ther personal attacks, as is your typical want?

hey, btw, have you seen the latest washingtonian magazine? 
:thumb:


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

hts said:


> *
> 
> nice comeback (as usual) tom. what a surprise. why don't you try actually responding to the point someone makes rather than dragging it down to the gutter with ther personal attacks, as is your typical want?
> 
> ...


Jeez...

Of course the R&T comparo is comparing the E46 M3 to the others. And the old test is comparing the E36 M3 to the others.

But the thing is, many of the "others" have not changed substantially in that time. And for the E36 M3 to place ahead of the Ferrari F355s and Porsche 911s of it's day and then for the E46 M3 place behind virtually EVERYTHING reflecets more on the E46 M3, IMO, than it does on the competition.

And, yes, my neighborhood rocks. Thanks for telling everyone where I live.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

hts said:


> *Hmmmmm...let's see....September 1997 to May 2002.
> 
> Elapsed time...oh, around 56 months, or 5 1/2 years.
> 
> ...


Tom's point was that the E36 M3 was dubbed the Best Handling Car in the World in comparison to then-available competitors in 1997. Apparently, R&T conducted a similar comparo using the 2002 M3 (and the competitors available now in '02) and concluded the M3 was 7th out of 8.

Either the competition has gotten much better, or (as I suspect Tom is suggesting) the M3 has lost some of its magic.

Interesting to speculate about, but it's difficult to compare an R&T and C/D comparo; who knows what the various biases of the reporters are? A repeat of the 97 test by C/D would be more informative.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Jeez...
> 
> ...


well at least you're finally on point, so i s'pose i should be thankful for that, even though you're wrong.

the e36 m3 rocked back then. that was then, this is now. as for your blanket statement "many of the 'others' have not changed substantially in that time," i'm afraid i'm going to have to beg to differ. in fact, i'd suggest that many of the cars compared in this current comparo (mp3, z06, evo7) didn't exist in the u.s. market in '97, or (in the vette's case) are drastic improvements over the car(s) that was available then.

it's blind faith in the bmw brand ("it's a bmw, therefore it must be the best") that makes the opinions of some of you bmw fanatics worth much less than it otherwise would be worth if you were a little more objective. that's why i'm so excited about the g35. i'm not a bmw fanatic, i could care less about racing heritage, etc., i simply want a car that puts the biggest smile on my face, all things considered. if that's a 330i, great. wrx sti, fine. g35, so be it.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

JST said:


> *
> 
> Tom's point was that the E36 M3 was dubbed the Best Handling Car in the World in comparison to then-available competitors in 1997. Apparently, R&T conducted a similar comparo using the 2002 M3 (and the competitors available now in '02) and concluded the M3 was 7th out of 8.
> 
> ...


JST,

I understand your point clearly, and if you're correctly summarized Tom's point (God only knows how you could have surmised all that from his comments), then I would have to agree with both of you (competition has gotten better while the M3 may have simultaneously gotten softer).


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

So when are you coming here Harrison? I may have found a new enemy:lmao:


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

Sorry Kun, but we decided to buy a place in North Raleigh instead.

:-(


Ever heard of Wakefield Plantation?


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *Sorry Kun, but we decided to buy a place in North Raleigh instead.
> 
> :-(
> 
> Ever heard of Wakefield Plantation? *


Damn, and I took all those pictures too  . What changed your mind? There is nothing left for sale now. I haven't heard of Wakefield Plantation. Where is that near? Cary?


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

Yeah, thanks for the pix!

We just decided that we could get 'more for less' up there. Also, it's a nice golf course (PGA/TPC) community. It's up in the NE part of Raleigh, up near Wake Forest.

I'll see if I have the link...

http://www.wakefieldplantation.com/home.htm

We'll have you over for a bbq/beer after we get settled...


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## Adrian 330Ci'01 (Apr 16, 2002)

blackdawg said:


> *did anyone else read this with a tightlipped sort of grimace?
> 
> they compared a mazda MP3, zo6 vette, M3, 911TT, evo VII, and ferrari 360?
> 
> the M3 finished 7th out of 8 cars in terms of handling. am wondered how M3 owners feel about the critiques of the car and the handling issues brought up by the assembled road testers? *


I looked for the article online and couldn't find it.

How did they define handling? The M3 has a LOT OF POWER which could arguable make it a poor 'handling' car for the typical driver. Good handling could be defined as the best match between power weight and suspension that makes the car FEEL good when tossing it through the turns. Using this definition, something like a Miata (or go-cart) would score very well vs. something with a lot of power. Another metric could be 'band-for-the-buck' where I would argue that a 325i would score better than the M3...

I noticed however that there are some other power beasts in the mix.

Can anyone elaborate on their definition?


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*yeah....reviews such as this.....*

really put a damper on my enthusiasm for my M3 which won't get here for another 8 months.

right now i'm thinking i'll just keep the order going and find a different car maybe? it's sort of disheartening to read the criticisms as well as take what i know firsthand from short test drives and a track ride in an E46M3.

the steering was a tad light. the body did tend to roll more than i personally liked.

what a bargain at $52k to have a 3 series which has the same issues as a $40k 330.


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *Yeah, thanks for the pix!
> 
> We just decided that we could get 'more for less' up there. Also, it's a nice golf course (PGA/TPC) community. It's up in the NE part of Raleigh, up near Wake Forest.
> 
> ...


I didn't know the name of this place, but I've seen pictures of it before. My significant other's family was shopping around for a new home, and I saw some pictures. This is near Wade Avenue and Capital Blvd. You're going to have a hell of a time at 5p.m. traffic on I40 :lmao:. I'll show you some good eats around the area when you get here. Yes, you're right, we have inflated prices here, but when we bought our condo, the demand wasn't as high as it is now. Meadowmont is hideously expensive, but they get a Harris Teeter:yikes: . All we get is Weaver:dunno: . So much for the kids eh:lmao: :lmao: ?


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

*Re: yeah....reviews such as this.....*



blackdawg said:


> *really put a damper on my enthusiasm for my M3 which won't get here for another 8 months.
> 
> right now i'm thinking i'll just keep the order going and find a different car maybe? it's sort of disheartening to read the criticisms as well as take what i know firsthand from short test drives and a track ride in an E46M3.
> 
> ...


You can't trust everything you see. Those people get letters all the time by people who give them whole lots of sh*t about what they write, etc. If YOU like the car, get it. I agree that I had a more enjoyable experience with the E36 m3, and although it does not have the power of the E46, it sure puts a big grin on my face. Yes, the E46 has more body roll. I like my setup on my car more so than the M3. But that's how all cars are coming out these days, "created for the masses":dunno:


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

Kids/schmids.

I've got 1/2-acre wooded, 3-car side-load (finally!), 4,200 sq. ft. finished (around another 1100 finishable), 4BR + 4.5 bath, less than one block from the 9th fairway, for 550k.

who could ask for more?

;-)


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## Adrian 330Ci'01 (Apr 16, 2002)

*Re: yeah....reviews such as this.....*



blackdawg said:


> *really put a damper on my enthusiasm for my M3 which won't get here for another 8 months.
> 
> right now i'm thinking i'll just keep the order going and find a different car maybe? it's sort of disheartening to read the criticisms as well as take what i know firsthand from short test drives and a track ride in an E46M3.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind a lot of people like to criticize whoever is on top.

We ARE talking about a car (3er) that almost every manufacturer is trying to emulate in some way or another.

The 3er is still the best car I have ever driven for the price. If it doesn't handle well I guess I am just too incompetent to tell. 

Even if you put all the handling/drivability aside, the M3 is still the best looking car of its type BY FAR IMHO.


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *Kids/schmids.
> 
> I've got 1/2-acre wooded, 3-car side-load (finally!), 4,200 sq. ft. finished (around another 1100 finishable), 4BR + 4.5 bath, less than one block from the 9th fairway, for 550k.
> 
> ...


:yikes: :yikes: :yikes: That's a good deal. My parents are wanting to move as well, but we just can't find the classic homes they used to make. No land, piss poor quality. A garage here would have cost us a civic. 550k = deadbeat dad will do:lmao: . Congrats, I'm sure you're happy


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

KP said:


> *
> 
> :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: That's a good deal. My parents are wanting to move as well, but we just can't find the classic homes they used to make. No land, piss poor quality. A garage here would have cost us a civic. 550k = deadbeat dad will do:lmao: . Congrats, I'm sure you're happy *


Hey, KP... You aren't normally a thread hijacker. You hijacked a perfectly good thread. ;P


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Hey, KP... You aren't normally a thread hijacker. You hijacked a perfectly good thread. ;P *


:eeps: So my conclusion is that you ought to go with what you like. The US+media is blasphemy, but does that keep Ford Explorer buyers down? If I had a choice now, I would have gotten your car hands down rather than my M54+dbw+bit*hy clutch+rattle package. But I still love my car, and I'm sure he would love his E46 M3 when he got it, and will have forgotten all about this thread:lmao:. By the way, did Arch take the silver m3? We never heard back from him.


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

KP said:


> *
> 
> :eeps: So my conclusion is that you ought to go with what you like. The US+media is blasphemy, but does that keep Ford Explorer buyers down? If I had a choice now, I would have gotten your car hands down rather than my M54+dbw+bit*hy clutch+rattle package. But I still love my car, and I'm sure he would love his E46 M3 when he got it, and will have forgotten all about this thread:lmao:. By the way, did Arch take the silver m3? We never heard back from him. *


He was about to and then, THAT DAY, he found out his wife was pregnant with twins. I haven't heard much from him since except that, for obvious reasons, the M3 was off.


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

TD said:


> *
> 
> He was about to and then, THAT DAY, he found out his wife was pregnant with twins. I haven't heard much from him since except that, for obvious reasons, the M3 was off. *


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: He did say holy sh*t that day in the lounge. I can reason with the man, he's going to have some fun . The silver one is very immaculate... I'm sure it's gone by now


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: yeah....reviews such as this.....*



Adrian 330Ci'01 said:


> *
> 
> Keep in mind a lot of people like to criticize whoever is on top.
> 
> ...


Your first two points were true in 1997, as well.

I personally love the way the "base" E46 *handles.* I don't like the way that it *steers,* but the handling is quite good. I still haven't been able to find an E46 M3 to drive, though, so I am reserving judgment about its handling.

FWIW, I still think the 330i is a much, much better proposition for the street than the new M3. It has all the performance I need, much more practicality, and with the extra 20K, I could buy a club racer E30 325 or decent E30 M3 to use on track days. Maybe my opinion will change once I actually drive one.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

KP,

It just seemed to us that the prices in N. Raleigh were MUCH more reasonable than CH. Also, since N. Raleigh is in the lake watershed (Jordan? Neuse?), they have strict density limits, so it was very easy for us to find neighborhood after neighborhood that had the 'look and feel' we were looking for (larger, wooded lots) as opposed to the neo-trad neighborhoods down in CH (SV and MM).

I'm sure we'll be fine. We'll still have you over (if you care to drive all the way out there!).

:thumb:


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

KP said:


> *
> 
> :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: He did say holy sh*t that day in the lounge. I can reason with the man, he's going to have some fun . The silver one is very immaculate... I'm sure it's gone by now *


Yeah. I'm the only one of us who saw it in person and it was absolutely flawless. And only 11,800 miles. 5 oil changes in that time too.

If I were in the market for a 2-door, I'd have had to fight Arch for it.

I still have the seller's contact info if anyone reading this is interested. PM me.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *An adjustable steering wheel would have been nice, as well as more lateral support, but these issues didn't get in the way of our adoration. *


The E36 doesn't have any steering wheel adjustment ability? That's pretty weak! What if you just happen to be of a height that the wheel blocks your view of the guages?


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

TD said:


> *Hold on... Didn't Car and Driver do a "Best Handling Car > $30K" comparo a few years back in which the E36 M3 BEAT all contenders including the then-current exotics? As a matter of fact, they did. And the M3 won BY A LARGE MARGIN.
> 
> Hmmm..... *


You go TD, you E36 M3 god you! :thumb:

Let's look at numbers: Lateral accelleration:
M3 - .89
Z06 - 1.00

Don't know the others but I'm sure the exotics are closer to 1.00 than .89


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *KP,
> 
> It just seemed to us that the prices in N. Raleigh were MUCH more reasonable than CH. Also, since N. Raleigh is in the lake watershed (Jordan? Neuse?), they have strict density limits, so it was very easy for us to find neighborhood after neighborhood that had the 'look and feel' we were looking for (larger, wooded lots) as opposed to the neo-trad neighborhoods down in CH (SV and MM).
> 
> ...


That's about 40 minutes from where I live:eeps: . I believe it's Neuse (Jordan crosses there as well). A six pack of Sierra Nevada will do


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

Plaz said:


> *
> 
> The E36 doesn't have any steering wheel adjustment ability? That's pretty weak! What if you just happen to be of a height that the wheel blocks your view of the guages? *


Tilt, but no telescope. That's what the seats are for . The vader seats are superb (2door, 4door is little different), and adjustment is very flexible with manual seats.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

A 6-pack of SN it is then!!

(Although truth be told, Tom's promised to show me how to home-brew my own brewski, I'm partial to Belgian Whites myself, so p'haps you're feeling a little adventurous?).

:thumb:


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

KP said:


> *
> 
> Tilt, but no telescope. That's what the seats are for . The vader seats are superb (2door, 4door is little different), and adjustment is very flexible with manual seats. *


Oh, okay... I inferred from the article that there was no tilt adjustment either. That just seemed _wrong_ to me... and apparently it was. 

Thanks for the clarification.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Plaz said:


> *
> 
> Oh, okay... I inferred from the article that there was no tilt adjustment either. That just seemed wrong to me... and apparently it was.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification. *


The Z3 had no tilt and telescoping either...And it fit me like a glove.


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *A 6-pack of SN it is then!!
> 
> (Although truth be told, Tom's promised to show me how to home-brew my own brewski, I'm partial to Belgian Whites myself, so p'haps you're feeling a little adventurous?).
> 
> :thumb: *


We'll use your bathtub:lmao:


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Plaz said:


> *
> 
> Oh, okay... I inferred from the article that there was no tilt adjustment either. That just seemed wrong to me... and apparently it was.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification. *


No tilt, no telescope on the M3 in the US. I think some very early 95s may have had it, but it became clear that the car wouldn't meet US safety standards with this feature, so it was deleted. My late model year 1998 does not have it.

I got used to it fairly quickly; I think you'd have to have an extraordinarily odd body shape for the wheel to present any visibility concerns.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

KP said:


> *
> 
> We'll use your bathtub:lmao: *


I'm not even gonna' go there....

How 'bout I just buy some proper equipment for brewing up some batches?

:thumb:


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

Okay, after a little digging, HERE IS A LINK TO THE ENTIRE C&D COMPARO FROM 1997- http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/1997/September/199709_feature_thebe.xml

Specs, comments, everything...

BTW, in_d_haus, the then-current Ferrari F355 had a skidpad rating of .98g and still placed behind the M3 in that comapro. Specs alone do not great handling make.


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *
> 
> I'm not even gonna' go there....
> 
> ...


I'm up for it. My parents own a gas station, and some of our customers bring moonshine every year:lmao: . When do I expect you?


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

KP said:


> *
> 
> I'm up for it. My parents own a gas station, and some of our customers bring moonshine every year:lmao: . When do I expect you? *


July 4th week-end (with any luck!).

As a fellow BMW enthusiast (some would say I'm a BMW fanatic), do I qualify for the "KP fill 'er up with premium for the price of regular unleaded" discount?


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *
> 
> July 4th week-end (with any luck!).
> 
> ...


If you're willing to drive all the way down to High Point:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

KP said:


> *
> 
> If you're willing to drive all the way down to High Point:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: *


Is that where they make/sell all that cheap furniture?


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

hts said:


> *
> 
> Is that where they make/sell all that cheap furniture?
> 
> *


Over-gouging up the (__X__), and 60% of the places are not open to the public. If you're looking for furniture, I can help you with that too:thumb: . I don't think you're an IKEA guy


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

KP said:


> *
> 
> Over-gouging up the (__X__), and 60% of the places are not open to the public. If you're looking for furniture, I can help you with that too:thumb: . I don't think you're an IKEA guy *


You're right about that (not being an Ikea kinda' guy). Up here in NoVa, we hear about the 'great prices and quality' regarding NC furniture all the time. "Go directly to the factory and save big bucks," they say. High Point? Hickory? Who the heck knows?

We're going to have an entire house (more or less) to furnish, so any info. you can provide on where to go (in due time) would be much appreciated Kun!

:thumb:


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

KP said:


> *
> 
> Over-gouging up the (__X__), and 60% of the places are not open to the public. If you're looking for furniture, I can help you with that too:thumb: . I don't think you're an IKEA guy *


I think Harrison's style is more along the lines of-









A couple of those shouldn't set him back too much...


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I think Harrison's style is more along the lines of-
> 
> ...


:lmao: :lmao: Harrisson, if you need a mattress, I'll give you the back seat of my van


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I think Harrison's style is more along the lines of-
> 
> ...


One can always count on you for a personal dig. BTW, I noticed (when you were giving me the grand tour) that you've furnished your house in a most unusual style.

:thumb:


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

hts said:


> *
> 
> One can always count on you for a personal dig. BTW, I noticed (when you were giving me the grand tour) that you've furnished your house in a most unusual style.
> 
> :thumb: *


I don't even want to know what made-up "true" detail you''ll come up with now.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I don't even want to know what made-up "true" detail you''ll come up with now. *


So you're going to deny the story about your mother-in-law (or was it your aunt-in-law, I forget) 'helping you' with some of your living room decorating selections?


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## Guest (May 1, 2002)

My mother-in-law is a professional interior decorator who did do our window treatments and selected a number of pieces. We happen to like what she did. And it's all professional work. 

That's certainly a non-issue. If you don't care for it, well, tastes vary.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

*a way to settle this.....*

Forget the other cars,I guess the real issue here is thus: Is the current M3 a "better handler" than the old.

A professional driver on a closed course, flogging the hell out of both models would give us an answer, easily recordable as lap times.

I suspect the new car would win it for its sheer power alone.

Having said that, I'm NO fan of the current M3, i think it's too heavy, too overpriced and marketed to middle-aged wannabe's (with all that luxury) and to rich kids to get killed in.

And it's decontented, too,the american market M3 doesn't even get the euro model's brakes for heaven's sake.

Great handling cars need to be light. Start with a stripped e46, add on some performance and some suspension mods or do what TD did and get a ready-made e36, it's got to be more fun than the boulevardier E46 m3.

Ed


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: a way to settle this.....*



 EdCT said:


> *Forget the other cars,I guess the real issue here is thus: Is the current M3 a "better handler" than the old.
> 
> A professional driver on a closed course, flogging the hell out of both models would give us an answer, easily recordable as lap times.
> 
> ...


The E46 model gets better lap times than the Euro spec E36 as well; the euro car has over 320hp...

"all that luxury," It seems to me that there are not many features added on to the E46 M3 that weren't on the E36 model...

I'm not going to comment on the article until I read it or at least see some exerpts. I will say that the competition has gotten better for shure, but I seriously doubt that the E36 M3 would have won this test  Even if it is the holy grail of automobiles


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*um, read that article, nate.*

curious to see what you think.

i agree with the light steering. i think even the M coupe has steering a tad light, but NOT AS LIGHT as the e46m3.

the weight issue. good lord, i have never read a review (driving review, not just some stupid first glance or preview article) which did not bring up the added weight.

um, while this does not completely deter me from my purpose of getting a suitable family friendly but also track-able car, it sure is a wake up call.

am betting that on the track, at my level of ability (group 3 of 5 groups, 5 being the instructor group) that i could tune a 330i and be just as fast as i would be as in an M3. and keep the pocket money for house work....nah....just keep it socked away for the P car.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: um, read that article, nate.*



blackdawg said:


> *curious to see what you think.
> 
> i agree with the light steering. i think even the M coupe has steering a tad light, but NOT AS LIGHT as the e46m3.
> 
> ...


Lighter steering isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, I agree that it can be too light, but ligher steering is beneficial at the track. It allows you to make faster adjustments and also is much less tiring. Most sports cars have light steering. Ferraris do, I was talking to a Ferrari driver at the last event and he was saying that it was so easy to drive because of the light steering. The E46 M3 is very trackable, I really don't understand why some hate them so much :dunno:

I will get it as soon as possible.

What are your impressions of the E46 M3? Street and track?


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*street....track....*

i drove it around a tad on the street. it's a remarkable 330. so easy to drive, yet everything is dampened. a bit disconcerting compared to what i drive everyday. too refined? i dunno if that's good or bad.

since i had just driven a 2002 911 with the new 3.6 litre engine, the M3 felt a tad sluggish to me off the line. no substitution for cubic inches. i konw that's nascar thinking, but it's true. you can only do so much with trickery to get power out. from a standstill is when one is the most acutely aware of the limitations of any engine.

on the track....i wasn't driving. car was a tad softly sprung and dampened. surprisingly it moved around on its suspension much more so than i would have liked. instructor knew how to really throw it around, though. very nice.

drove with an instructor in a 330i, however. his 330i has coilovers and the ride was better.

so: from my own experience? it's okay. i wouldn't complain if i owned one, but i would only own one knowing full well it would be trade-in bait after about 2 years. honestly, to keep focus, and i know it's hard, drive a 2002 911 and then try to get a ride/drive in the M3. it really puts perspective on things like torque, gearing, brakes, and ride feel through the steering wheel.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: street....track....*



blackdawg said:


> *i drove it around a tad on the street. it's a remarkable 330. so easy to drive, yet everything is dampened. a bit disconcerting compared to what i drive everyday. too refined? i dunno if that's good or bad.
> 
> since i had just driven a 2002 911 with the new 3.6 litre engine, the M3 felt a tad sluggish to me off the line. no substitution for cubic inches. i konw that's nascar thinking, but it's true. you can only do so much with trickery to get power out. from a standstill is when one is the most acutely aware of the limitations of any engine.
> 
> ...


Yea, it would be pretty hard to fall in love with an M3 after driving a Porsche. Then you keep prices in you mind and then it seems pretty good.  I thought that the 2001 M coupe had no low end torque when I drove it, but that was due to speding the day driving an M5 

It is hard to evaluate track performance if you are a passenger though :dunno:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Not even sure how relevant this is to the "best handling" qualification, but didn't Motor Trend (TD's favorite) do a comparo between the M3 and the Z06 last year, with the 2 cars posting nearly identical slalom numbers?


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Some one should take an E36 M3 and and E46 M3 to the track and settle this once and for all. This is getting as bad as Leather vs Ette. Who gives a rats pitutie.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

ObD said:


> *Some one should take an E36 M3 and and E46 M3 to the track and settle this once and for all. This is getting as bad as Leather vs Ette. Who gives a rats pitutie.  *


There is NO question in anyone's mind that the E46 would be faster


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> There is NO question in anyone's mind that the E46 would be faster *


Hmmmmm...I'd be willing to wager there's at least one person around here (anyone care to guess who I'm thinking of) that might take exception to that statement...


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: street....track....*



blackdawg said:


> *i drove it around a tad on the street. it's a remarkable 330. so easy to drive, yet everything is dampened. a bit disconcerting compared to what i drive everyday. too refined? i dunno if that's good or bad.
> 
> since i had just driven a 2002 911 with the new 3.6 litre engine, the M3 felt a tad sluggish to me off the line. no substitution for cubic inches. i konw that's nascar thinking, but it's true. you can only do so much with trickery to get power out. from a standstill is when one is the most acutely aware of the limitations of any engine.
> 
> ...


P car... Oh well, I can only dream about it right now... I agree with Nate, it must be hard to fall in love with an M3 after driving a 911...

Anyway, after seeing what the car can do (Tiff Needle's video, SpeedVision's comparo - Hartge vs M3 vs B3, etc), I'm happy with it. Even if it's not the #1 (was the E36 M3 really #1? One can always dispute how accurate magazine comparos/reviews are)... The Z06 for one has made huge improvements in the handling dept. compared to C5 Coupe and Convertible... The competition is definitely tougher...


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> *Not even sure how relevant this is to the "best handling" qualification, but didn't Motor Trend (TD's favorite) do a comparo between the M3 and the Z06 last year, with the 2 cars posting nearly identical slalom numbers? *


I don't recall which car magazines did it (I'm pretty sure Automobile was one of them), but I think at least two magazines compared 911 vs M3 vs Z06. The M3 was the best overall car. Anyway, as a previous Corvette owner (2 C5's), I'd say it doesn't take a Z06 to outhandle an M3...


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: um, read that article, nate.*



> am betting that on the track, at my level of ability (group 3 of 5 groups, 5 being the instructor group) that i could tune a 330i and be just as fast as i would be as in an M3. and keep the pocket money for house work....nah....just keep it socked away for the P car. [/B]


That's a great point. I wonder how many people who buy the M3 can actually use it properly. A good driver could probably beat 95% of M3 drivers in a 330 or even dare I say a 325. I guess mos people like it because it looks cool, gives lots of neck snapping acceleration, and you feel like you COULD in theory beat lots other cars on a track.


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## planet (Dec 22, 2001)

TD said:


> *You're so slow it's scary.
> 
> Go play on a G35 board. *


For a second there, I thought I clicked on the wrong bookmark and ended up on the .org.

Thanks for the flashback, TD. Way to build community!


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## Guest (May 3, 2002)

planet said:


> *
> 
> For a second there, I thought I clicked on the wrong bookmark and ended up on the .org.
> 
> Thanks for the flashback, TD. Way to build community! *


You certainly have not been paying attention. hts is the problem, not me.

Don't believe me, ask around.


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

TD said:


> *
> 
> You certainly have not been paying attention. hts is the problem, not me.
> 
> Don't believe me, ask around. *


The posting of a trailer park broken lawn chair and a smart-ass remark does not exactly make you a "non-problem", TD.

Same old crap, different day.

Ryan

:tsk:


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## Guest (May 3, 2002)

Ryan330Ci said:


> *
> 
> The posting of a trailer park broken lawn chair and a smart-ass remark does not exactly make you a "non-problem", TD.
> 
> ...


You are humorless. It was a gag in keeping with the spirit here. And following him slamming our decorating, it was appropriate.

Let up, will ya'.


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

TD said:


> *
> 
> You are humorless. It was a gag in keeping with the spirit here. And following him slamming our decorating, it was appropriate.
> 
> Let up, will ya'. *


Always quick to show everybody you are ALWAYS RIGHT, yet calling "HTS the problem here, not me." Are you an aspiring politician?

Too funny.

Have a great weekend! :thumb:

Ryan


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## CaliChris (Jun 11, 2002)

My X5 will beat all of them M3 poseurs damnit!  :flipoff: :lmao:


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## Blasterbator (Jul 18, 2002)

Road and Track is a joke, always has been always will be, everytime I pick up a copy at the barber I just laugh and renew my C&D subscription


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Wow, this thread came back from the dead...


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