# Shipping a BMW Across the US for an Experienced ED CA



## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

It is ludicrous to ship a car halfway across the US after delivery because a dealership or CA claims to be an expert on Euro Delivery. European Delivery is not terribly complicated. The rumor that you need an experienced ED CA or dealer is way over-rated. What you need is a responsible CA that will place the order promptly. You need to follow up to make sure that the CA did what he/she said that they were going to do. BMW has established in place procedures to do ED. BMW has been doing this for years and they are committed to the program. It is not rocket science for CA and dealer. 

Plus there is a BMW ED Department that one can call to make sure that your order is qued up.


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## Northcar (Sep 21, 2005)

pharding said:


> It is ludicrous to ship a car halfway across the US after delivery because a dealership or CA claims to be an expert on Euro Delivery. European Delivery is not terribly complicated. The rumor that you need an experienced ED CA or dealer is way over-rated. What you need is a responsible CA that will place the order promptly. You need to follow up to make sure that the CA did what he/she said that they were going to do. BMW has established in place procedures to do ED. BMW has been doing this for years and they are committed to the program. It is not rocket science for CA and dealer.
> 
> Plus there is a BMW ED Department that one can call to make sure that your order is qued up.


Just ask those who have ended up having problems because they were the Guiney Pig for a an ED inexperienced dealership. Since you live near Irv, who is probably the most experienced ED specialist in the US it is easy for you to say. That said, you are correct that many other dealers are capable and nine out of ten times things will probably work out OK. It is that one out of ten than can be problematic though.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

pharding said:


> It is ludicrous to ship a car halfway across the US after delivery because a dealership or CA claims to be an expert on Euro Delivery. European Delivery is not terribly complicated. The rumor that you need an experienced ED CA or dealer is way over-rated. What you need is a responsible CA that will place the order promptly. You need to follow up to make sure that the CA did what he/she said that they were going to do. BMW has established in place procedures to do ED. BMW has been doing this for years and they are committed to the program. It is not rocket science for CA and dealer.
> 
> Plus there is a BMW ED Department that one can call to make sure that your order is qued up.


Ironically, while you may think that it's "ludicrous", I find that many of my clients traveling from out of state do business with an "expert" not really just for the sake of expertise, or even savings, but for dealing with guys with historically positive, hassle free experiences, and perhaps more important, because they do so to support sponsors of Bimmerfest.

If I was ordering any mods, for example, I'd order from across the country just to support our mod sponsors. Sure, there's logistical differences, but I think that alot of guys want to deal with experts because they don't want the brain damage of having to baby sit and hold the hand of a CA to do your ED. You can't put a value on that, but I'm sure if you had a high billable rate, you might not want to burn that kind of time. I don't think we go around claiming we're know-it-alls, but I do think our reputations speak for themselves and that says alot to prospective EDer's.

You don't have to hear the stories I hear from my clients who tell them what their CA's tell them about ED when they go whereever they go. It's pretty ridiculous, but hey, their incompetence and lack of initiative to want to do ED or bother with it only helps guys and gals like me, Ricki, Phillipe, Irv, and Jim.

I'd love to say that I'd replace your word "ludicrous" with admirable, devoted, supportive, dedicated, loyal, and fun.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

If you are dealing with an inexperienced CA, like I was, make sure you follow up and verify with BMW ED in New Jersey every step of the way. Get to know the GSM, and follow the old Russian proverb: Trust, but verify. (Regan called it a Russian proverb, I don't know if it is or isn't).


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

Motor Werks has a great service department. However the buying experience sucks there. They are duplicitous on the leasing and arrogant if you ask questions, even if you are a repeat customer. On my first ED lease there, they based the residual value on ED MSRP. This boosted their profit by over $3,000 and increased my lease payments by that amount over three years. On the next lease they attempted to do the same thing. I complained to BMW NA and they got a letter telling them that they could not do that. Irv may be good at marketing. However if management has questionable sales and leasing practices and is arrogant, then that is not the best place to do Euro Delivery.

Euro Delivery is made out to be more complicated than it really is by so called Euro Delivery Specialist CA's. BMW would never tolerate 10 percent screwed up Euro Deliveries. The poster that made that claim is telling ghost stories.


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## gbarros (Apr 19, 2007)

As Adrian mentioned, what you are getting is peace of mind that things will get done right. It drives me nuts to know that I understand the ED process better than my current CA, I'm constantly having to tell him to call up BMWNA on things he thinks I'm wrong about. Not to mention triple-check every document he sends my way...


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

gbarros said:


> As Adrian mentioned, what you are getting is peace of mind that things will get done right. It drives me nuts to know that I understand the ED process better than my current CA, I'm constantly having to tell him to call up BMW NA on things he thinks I'm wrong about. Not to mention triple-check every document he sends my way...


In my opinion what is critical is not the dealer's or CA's experience with Euro Delivery, but his/her professionalism and a desire to get it right. What I think happens on most deals, whether ED or typical Us Delivery, is that Sales Manager and/or Finance Manager, engage in duplicitous business practices. If they present the buyer with papers to sign with math errors or errors of any type, and you sign it, then they just boosted their profit, possibly substantially at your expense.

BMW dealers have had issues with customer satisfaction in the purchase experience, forcing BMW to police it as best they can with customer satisfaction surveys with severe penalties. There is no substitute for the buyer doing his or her homework and being diligent to check the fees and math with every submittal. The problem is that too many people trust the CA and dealership and do not take the time to do their homework. This encourages and rewards unethical business practices. It makes the process more time consuming and frustrating for the informed BMW Enthusiast. BMW needs to do a better at policing their dealers. BMW's recent strategy of adding and allowing ever more fees, is counter-productive to the important strategy of BMW Enthusiast satisfaction and loyalty.


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## iversonm (Nov 15, 2004)

adrian's bmw said:


> Ironically, while you may think that it's "ludicrous", I find that many of my clients traveling from out of state do business with an "expert" not really just for the sake of expertise, or even savings, but for dealing with guys with historically positive, hassle free experiences...


+1. This is big.


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## tjgolden (Jan 12, 2007)

pharding said:


> ship a car halfway across the US


Hire me. I drive it anywhere for gas only.


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

I think it comes down to this. Would you rather pay a premium and go with a CA who's done a ton of EDs or would you rather save $$$ and baby sit the process? Whatever works for you.


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

coontie said:


> I think it comes down to this. Would you rather pay a premium and go with a CA who's done a ton of EDs or would you rather save $$$ and baby sit the process? Whatever works for you.


I do not believe that European Delivery is as complicated you indicate. You do not need a CA that has done a "ton of EDs". It is a fairly simple and straightforward process. Why is it that making a follow up call to BMW CA is "baby sitting"? I have done Euro Delivery 4 times. It went well all four times, except that the experienced ED dealer overcharged me by $3,000 on the lease when he used ED MSRP to calculate residual value. Twice I worked with CA's at two different dealerships that did them infrequently and it went quite well and I was treated fairly on the price and lease. Some CA's like to tell "ghost stories" that make out European Delivery to be much more complicated than it is. After all BMW NA has established standards for this that are rather straightforward and a European Delivery Department. I would much rather deal with a trustworthy dealership AND get a fair competitive price than a so-called ED expert that charges a premium either openly or through duplicity. I cannot conceive of why anyone would need the services of BMW ED expert such that the car had to be driven thousands of miles.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

pharding said:


> I do not believe that European Delivery is as complicated you indicate. You do not need a CA that has done a "ton of EDs". It is a fairly simple and straightforward process. Why is it that making a follow up call to BMW CA is "baby sitting"? I have done Euro Delivery 4 times. It went well all four times, except that the experienced ED dealer overcharged me by $3,000 on the lease when he used ED MSRP to calculate residual value. Twice I worked with CA's at two different dealerships that did them infrequently and it went quite well and I was treated fairly on the price and lease. Some CA's like to tell "ghost stories" that make out European Delivery to be much more complicated than it is. After all BMW NA has established standards for this that are rather straightforward and a European Delivery Department. I would much rather deal with a trustworthy dealership AND get a fair competitive price than a so-called ED expert that charges a premium either openly or through duplicity. I cannot conceive of why anyone would need the services of BMW ED expert such that the car had to be driven thousands of miles.


You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it.

Indeed, you don't need to go with an ED specialist from any of the ED power houses. As long as you have a short leash on your CA, I'm sure you can achieve a comparable, trouble-free purchase experience.

I agree that the ED order process is relatively easy. There is definitely ED for Dummies training available from BMW for CA's that should make your purchase with a CA who's done few, if any, European Deliveries hopefully trouble free and painless. Regretfully and often times, many CA's seriously don't want to be troubled with what I've heard as "high maintenance" ED clients. I have to confess that I welcome them. Is it alot of work and follow up for what's usually a $200 minimum commission? Absolutely. Why? Relationships are timeless and unforgettable with most ED clients and they're the most dedicated, loyal clients I will ever have and I love them.

True, you should definitely be able to walk in to your trustworthy center and march right on in and say I wanna do ED, I'd like to pay $a,bcd, where do I sign. You deserve that experience. Unfortunately, that's not the case all the time. Should it be? Yes. This is perhaps one of the main reasons why clients resort to ED specialists like myself and a few others. Sometimes, many clients do walk in to their center and they get so turned off the first go round, they don't have the _time_ or the _patience_ for the rigmarole.

While you cannot fathom driving or traveling such distances to purchase an ED from an ED expert, why is it that people can travel long distances for "expert" medical care from a well known specialist and pay whatever they have to pay, but you don't feel like some people can _choose_ and go out of their way to buy from someone who has a high level of expertise in ED?:dunno:


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## InsaneSkippy (Aug 28, 2007)

gbarros said:


> As Adrian mentioned, what you are getting is peace of mind that things will get done right. It drives me nuts to know that I understand the ED process better than my current CA, I'm constantly having to tell him to call up BMWNA on things he thinks I'm wrong about. Not to mention triple-check every document he sends my way...


That's why I sent him a PM regarding my order. I'm in FL and he's in GA and I'm willing to work with him because I know I will have peace of mind.


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## Northcar (Sep 21, 2005)

OK, now I get it. The OP was just trying to badmouth Motorwerks because of past prior negative experience. I guess that's fair.


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

My personal experiences with inexperienced CA's on the subject oif ED:

"BMW does not permit any discount beyond the European Discount"

"Options prices are the same for US or European Delivery" (i.e. you must pay full price for options too.)

"The car should arrive at the dealer within two weeks after it is dropped off"

"You can get any model you want as long as BMW hasn't fill its allocation"

Mercedes & Audi also had CA's who wanted to do ED anddidn't know what they were talking about either. I ended up buying my SL from a CA who did several ED's himself.

I would have to admit withoutthe help of festers, I might have believed some of this BS.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

dunderhi said:


> My personal experiences with inexperienced CA's on the subject oif ED:
> 
> "BMW does not permit any discount beyond the European Discount"
> 
> ...


But you didn't. And I'm fairly sure you did your homework on other major purchases. I almost always know more about the car than than the salesman does. I expect to be the one who is better informed, and when I get misinformation or disinformation, I check it out and call the person on it. I read above about 'math errors' giving the dealer additional profit. How does anyone allow 'math errors'? Math is simple enough to check, we are talking about arithmetic here, not differential calculus. All the necessary information is available if you seek it out.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Northcar said:


> OK, now I get it. The OP was just trying to badmouth Motorwerks because of past prior negative experience. I guess that's fair.


I'm catching what you're throwing. You do have a point. I think I'd be pretty salty, too.


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## Bombay Jay (Mar 20, 2006)

Sounds like he is sour because someone may have made an honest mistake (or maybe they were trying to bang him for a few extra bucks). What really makes him sour is that he didn't realize it prior to signing the documents and returning them.

They nicked him, he didn't catch it, he should probably be more pissed at himself than at the dealership?!


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

There are many capable CA's across the US that are capable of doing Euro Delivery. That was the point of the original post. I do not believe "ghost stories' that BMW ED is so complicated and unusual that a BMW should be shipped 1600 miles by BMW on a car carrier and then shipped 1600 miles back to the buyer at his/her expense. Not only does it waste the buyer's time and money but it contributes unnecessarily to global warming.


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## ddtan (Apr 28, 2006)

pharding said:


> There are many capable CA's across the US that are capable of doing Euro Delivery. That was the point of the original post. I do not believe "ghost stories' that BMW ED is so complicated and unusual that a BMW should be shipped 1600 miles by BMW on a car carrier and then shipped 1600 miles back to the buyer at his/her expense. Not only does it waste the buyer's time and money but it contributes unnecessarily to global warming.


+1
Right now there are at least 2 other threads on this forum that illustrate this point;
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227842
and
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228130
And with the help of BF, a simple question, such as "who would you recommend as a CA in or near my location", wouldl probably turn up many suggestions much closer to any buyer. What always amazes me is that someone will ask for recommendations for a local dealer on this board, and will get recommendations for CA's that are halfway across the country. And even more amazing, they will end up buying through that far away CA, even though they also receive recommendations for capable CA's much closer.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

pharding said:


> There are many capable CA's across the US that are capable of doing Euro Delivery. That was the point of the original post.


I agree. The "ED specialists" CA's aren't the only ones arranging all the ED's. Naturally, there's others sprinkled out there that are capable of handling an ED order.

In fact, I've personally had instances where I've recommended CA's closer to the client that I feel will be capable of handling their order. There's a few rare circumstances that I have to admit that a client is so gung ho about wanting to order from me or give me the business that I couldn't talk them out of it. How can I turn them away? Why would I?



pharding said:


> I do not believe "ghost stories' that BMW ED is so complicated and unusual that a BMW should be shipped 1600 miles by BMW on a car carrier and then shipped 1600 miles back to the buyer at his/her expense. Not only does it waste the buyer's time and money but it contributes unnecessarily to global warming.


I don't dispense "ghost stories" about the ED order process. I hope you weren't implying that I was. I think there's a few stories to go around this forum that I don't even need to try to talk them up. Indeed, it's a little more "administrative" than your standard order, but so is a PCD.

I haven't had to truck or drive a car 1,600 miles or had a client willing to do so at their expense without first either investigating courtesy delivery, PCD, or the logistical expense of transport or driving back.

Wastes buyer's time and money? Hmmm, I firmly believe that a client has a choice and deserves the freedom of choice of who they want to do business with and where. I do believe these clients do take their time and money seriously and are intelligent enough to make an informed decision on the logistics involved in cross country purchasing. That being said, I don't feel that many of these clients do business with me or anyone else far away for purely economic reasons or even because they were disenchanted with the initial local center encounter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this very small minority of clients and Bimmerfest members do it not just for the spirit of supporting a Bimmerfest sponsor, but because _*they want to*_ and they had the best reason to do a fun road trip reunited with their re-delivered BMW whether it be at the originating center or the Performance Center.

Before throwing in the "Green" card and making a statement about "unnessecarily contributing to global warming", I find that statement pretty funny from someone driving a 550i that get's 15/23 mpg when these cross country drivers are driving across America (at hwy rated mpg, too boot) seeing this beautiful country in their new BMW that they might not otherwise had the "wasted time and money" to do had they ordered locally. 

Bottom line: It's freedom of choice if you asked me. You can initiate this "go with your local center to ED" campaign. I'm okay with that. It's your choice. Ultimately, I don't think you'll be able to stop everyone from wanting to make a recommendation even if it means skipping over anyone local.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

There is board-sponsoring ED-experienced CA within a few hours drive, no matter where you are in the country. If you want to avail yourself of their services it is not very difficult to work with them. At the very least these vendors provide a good basis from which to shop, and they provide a very valuable service to the BMW community.

But this is still a free country, and you can patronize any CA you want. If you want to work with the guy who was making lattes at Starbucks the day before yesterday, fantastic, best of luck to you. But for some people, $50k is a lot of money, and they sleep better knowing their working with someone who's done this a time or two.

Clearly the OP has an ax to grind, and he's more than welcome to do so. But for him to paint every CA with the same brush is as ridiculous as to ship a car cross-country after ED redelivery.


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## SCBMW4ME (Aug 14, 2007)

pharding said:


> European Delivery is not terribly complicated. The rumor that you need an experienced ED CA or dealer is way over-rated.


It may not be. But you know what? I don't want to have bring someone up the learning curve. My time is too valuable. Assuming I am not getting raped on the financial end and we all can add cant we - why would I not leverage someone's experience?

Would I ship a car across country - no - but I live in SC and would just pick it up (again) in Greer.

I will tell you that I have walked on to 3 different lots from the same dealer (the one who owns that NASCAR team) and I should keep a scrapbook of the comments I get when I ask if they would do an ED and what the margin over ED Invoice for them is. Its really sad, but pretty funny.


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## Davisjl (Jun 6, 2006)

SCBMW4ME said:


> It may not be. But you know what? I don't want to have bring someone up the learning curve. My time is too valuable. Assuming I am not getting raped on the financial end and we all can add cant we - why would I not leverage someone's experience?
> 
> Would I ship a car across country - no - but I live in SC and would just pick it up (again) in Greer.
> 
> I will tell you that I have walked on to 3 different lots from the same dealer (the one who owns that NASCAR team) and I should keep a scrapbook of the comments I get when I ask if they would do an ED and what the margin over ED Invoice for them is. Its really sad, but pretty funny.


I think it's good that there are "ED specialist" out there to help make the consumer feel better and to explain the details of ED. Every buyer has the choice to use that ED specialist or if they wish, they can use someone else. It's not like anyone is twisting any arms.

However, having one of these "ED specialists" doesn't guarantee that things will go correctly. I would highly recommend following up constantly with any CA you use. I myself had my ED experience evaporate even though I used a respected "ED specialist".

In the end each buyer has to decide what's going to be the correct decision for them and live with it....


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## SCBMW4ME (Aug 14, 2007)

Davisjl said:


> However, having one of these "ED specialists" doesn't guarantee that things will go correctly.


Agreed - no guarantees. Sometimes I find the easiest things on paper, are the most difficult to execute.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

If you order a car for US delivery and it gets screwed up, you just order another car, no big deal. If your ED order get screwed up, you have made a trip to Germany and spent a fair amount of money. Go with an experienced ED CA like Adrian or Irv. Pick it up in SC and enjoy the drive home. Some dealerships do not have a clue about ED. Do not, I repeat do not, do business with someone who asks, "What's an ED?".


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## GOFASTR (Apr 13, 2007)

Here's my $0.02:

I researched this Forum extensively before making my decison to purchase a BMW and to do an ED. In fact, ED is probably the reason that cemented my decision to actually buy a BMW. That being said, I was nervous about using a local person that may not be as familiar with the ED process as someone like Adrian or Irv, but I called my local dealership, spoke with the General Manager and asked how many ED's they've done and which CA did the most of them. I called this CA to schedule an appointment to discuss ED. I was direct about some of my concerns and mentioned that I was considering using one of the Forum sponsors. He was very knowledgable about the process and even with some of the Forum sponsors, spoke highly of them, and said he was confident that I would have a positive experience if I went with one of them. He also showed me several letters from previous ED customers he had received after the process expressing their satisfaction.

In the end, I went with my local guy. He worked hard through all of the process, he was responsive, and even as recently as last week (6 weeks after my return) in working to schedule PCD re-delivery. Turns out he's probably going with me to take PCD delivery of a Z4 himself, and we're riding together. I'm glad I went with him, but if he hadn't impressed me during that initial appointment, I would not have hesitated to go with one of the Forum sponsors.

At the end of the day, the onus lies with the you - let the buyer beware. I wouldn't buy or sell any property without properly interviewing a real estate agent, and I would spend $40K+ on a car without doing the same with my CA.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

GOFASTR said:


> Here's my $0.02:
> 
> I researched this Forum extensively before making my decison to purchase a BMW and to do an ED. In fact, ED is probably the reason that cemented my decision to actually buy a BMW. That being said, I was nervous about using a local person that may not be as familiar with the ED process as someone like Adrian or Irv, but I called my local dealership, spoke with the General Manager and asked how many ED's they've done and which CA did the most of them. I called this CA to schedule an appointment to discuss ED. I was direct about some of my concerns and mentioned that I was considering using one of the Forum sponsors. He was very knowledgable about the process and even with some of the Forum sponsors, spoke highly of them, and said he was confident that I would have a positive experience if I went with one of them. He also showed me several letters from previous ED customers he had received after the process expressing their satisfaction.
> 
> ...


Nice!:thumbup: I'd love to have a chance to drive a client to the PCD. That's a great idea!! I think I'll just do that one of these days.

Like I said before, the big ED houses aren't the only ones doing ED's. Ultimately, you made a informed _choice_ in who you wanted to do business with and you were satisfied with your choice.


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## Me530 (Feb 17, 2005)

adrian's bmw said:


> Nice!:thumbup: I'd love to have a chance to drive a client to the PCD. That's a great idea!! I think I'll just do that one of these days.


Hint hint wink wink.... :angel:


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## smlee (Feb 5, 2007)

1. Peace of Mind - Knowing that your order is done just right, not to Alpine white, not to Jet Black, just a perfect shade of Barbera Red with a lovely Saddle brown interior.
2. Self respect - I shopped locally 1st, twice to be exact, 1st for my own car and 2nd my wife***8217;s car. These were to be haggle free Costco deals, the salesman gives me the line, the 530i is a hot car and they sell themselves routine. Guess what I got when I went to order a convertible, the ED is discounted of US MSRP, it***8217;s a great deal, I sell these at plus MSRP all day. I went to the other dealer in town and I thought I was really smart. I***8217;ll just go straight the fleet manager and talk to him about an ED purchase. He walks out, saw me and called for some one on the floor to help me, priceless moment. I felt like dirt!
3. Knowledge - Every time I call my CA (Adrian), I get his full attention and he answers all my questions, I'm never felt rushed and get a straight answer. No, car salesman double talk or mumbo jumbo.
4. Best Price - Even with courtesy delivery he beat all the local folks by $1500 bucks on the 1st shot. No haggling or faxing a zillion letters to dealers around the country.
5. Experience - Did I mentioned that he got us Oct 25 (my requested date) on a 335i convertible, opening week at the WELT, yeah baby! I have been reading nightmare stories about folks getting dates pulled or the CA not getting it done. Guess what, my CA got it done!!!!
6. Support the Board Sponsors - Folks, these guys don't work for free. They are online answering all your questions and giving a perceptive your local CA would never share or even bother telling you. I'm willing to support these folks and so should you, if you like all the insight and info these guy***8217;s share with us every day on ED and the overall experience. I need them here in a few years, when I plan to get my environmentally friendly and freaking fast 535D twin turbo!!!! Remember somebody leaks wholesale prices and I bet it***8217;s not the local dealer trying to charge me MSRP ++ and bump the rate to the max BMW allows.

Pharding, no hard feelings, I respect your opinion and that***8217;s the point of this board. Ask the hard questions and let everyone toss in their 2 cents. But without everyone including the board sponsors, I would not being buying my wife***8217;s car. I got all my information about ED from bimmerfest and feel confident on my decision to go with Adrian. I saved money, time and sleep with peace of mind that on Oct 25, I will put my wife into the car of her dreams. Enough said goodnight!!!!!!!!

Here I come Munich :drink:


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## IrvRobinson (May 10, 2006)

Have a great trip and thanks for your input.


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## DavidNY (Feb 18, 2006)

IrvRobinson said:


> Have a great trip and thanks for your input.


Beewang was right. Your posts such as the one quoted above add nothing (this one doesn't even come close to making sense) and are just there for you to get your sig. in front of people. :thumbdwn:

Maybe it's time to realize you are a sponsor, not a "member" and that you should act more sponsorly.


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

smlee said:


> 1. Peace of Mind - Knowing that your order is done just right, not to Alpine white, not to Jet Black, just a perfect shade of Barbera Red with a lovely Saddle brown interior. ........


You certainly have extremely low expectations of the BMW purchase experience is you feel compelled to seek a CA that can get the color right on your order. Also, is it difficult to review the order before the buyer signs his name to it? If you sign your name to a legally binding agreement that lists specs on your car, I can assure that between the dealership and BMW Customer Service you will get what was agreed to in writing.

Some sales people even, if they are sponsors, rely on "ghost stories", and marketing hype in order to troll for business here. Trolling is supposedly not permitted here. If some here choose to believe "Ghost Stories", good for them. European Delivery is not rocket science. BMW has long standing experience with European Delivery and just built a $500 million dollar building for that purpose in Munich. They have not and will not let the BMW European Delivery Experience become the complicated screwed up experience that some of the sales people here paint it out to be. People across the US rely on local CA's to provide a very simple and straightforward service in placing an order for a BMW European Delivery car. The BMW system works quite well.


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## DavidNY (Feb 18, 2006)

pharding said:


> Some sales people even, if they are sponsors, rely on "ghost stories", and marketing hype in order to troll for business here. Trolling is supposedly not permitted here.


If you recall, Irv from Motorwerks :thumbdwn: was caught posting under fake names (which is a violation of the terms of service here at the Fest). The posts were recommending, uh, Irv.


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## horatiub (Aug 25, 2004)

this forum has become a joke. For some reason DavidNy only posts when he has something negative to say and obviously you and Beewang have an issue with Irv. The topic with Irv posting under a fake name is history and it has been debated enough at that time. It's time to move on and stop trying to put people down.

And btw, DavidNy, for some reason I think your account is fake also.

now carry on with this non-sense


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

DavidNY said:


> If you recall, Irv from Motorwerks :thumbdwn: was caught posting under fake names (which is a violation of the terms of service here at the Fest). The posts were recommending, uh, Irv.


In addition past clients have made numerous complaints about their experience with Irv and Motor Werks via private messages to BeeWang.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

pharding said:


> In addition past clients have made numerous complaints about their experience with Irv and Motor Werks via private messages to BeeWang.


I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you are posting in a sincere attempt to help the community, but this post is a clear indication that you are not acting in good faith. Do you have any other purpose except to assassinate Irv professionally?


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## DavidNY (Feb 18, 2006)

horatiub said:


> this forum has become a joke. For some reason DavidNy only posts when he has something negative to say and obviously you and Beewang have an issue with Irv. The topic with Irv posting under a fake name is history and it has been debated enough at that time. It's time to move on and stop trying to put people down.
> 
> And btw, DavidNy, for some reason I think your account is fake also.
> 
> now carry on with this non-sense


Sorry to disappoint, Ms Vatasoiu, but I am quite real as is my acct.

I don't advertise my business on my signature like you do, but that doesn't make me "fake".



horatiub said:


> For some reason DavidNy only posts when he has something negative to say


Although a quick look at my posts would reveal this to be so far from the truth as to be plain silly.


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## horatiub (Aug 25, 2004)

philippek said:


> I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you are posting in a sincere attempt to help the community, but this post is a clear indication that you are not acting in good faith. Do you have any other purpose except to assassinate Irv professionally?


seriously...

this thread and the ED forum has become a personal vendetta.

I am friends with Irv and I have never stepped in to defend him and I let him handle the criticism, but this is going too far. For the past 2 weeks, certain individuals have started to attack him and come up with the same stories over and over. Pharding has been posting on other forums about his experience with Motorwerks, which is fine, but he is repeating himself several times.

Now DavidNY comes out of nowhere again to attack Irv ( he has done it many times in the past) and it's hard to believe that it's just a coincidence.

I really wish the board owners will take action and not ruin this great ED forum.


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## horatiub (Aug 25, 2004)

DavidNY said:


> Sorry to disappoint, Ms Vatasoiu, but I am quite real as is my acct.
> 
> I don't advertise my business on my signature like you do, but that doesn't make me "fake".
> 
> Although a quick look at my posts would reveal this to be so far from the truth as to be plain silly.


sure, whatever you say. I wish we could see your IP logs.

now grow up and stop with this internet war and mind your own business. If Beewang has a beef with Irv, then let them handle it.

Obviously you had to go through my signature to see who I am, so I guess it was helpful somehow


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## smlee (Feb 5, 2007)

pharding said:


> You certainly have extremely low expectations of the BMW purchase experience is you feel compelled to seek a CA that can get the color right on your order. Also, is it difficult to review the order before the buyer signs his name to it? If you sign your name to a legally binding agreement that lists specs on your car, I can assure that between the dealership and BMW Customer Service you will get what was agreed to in writing.


 No, I have low expectations of the CA who may not take me or the ED purchase experience to seriously. I choose to work with someone that has performed more than just a few ED's in their careers. I believe someone who is passionate or dedicated and enjoys doing what they do will get it right more often than not. I'm buying a very expensive car, It needs to be order right the 1st time. I'm planning a trip that will run me close to $5-7K; I need my dates and the overall process to be executed flawlessly. I choose experienced as a hedge to ensure it will get done right!
Almost every CA my wife and I spoke to at local dealerships are unaware of the details around ED or even knew what was ED (non-fleet folks). Also they don't seem too interested in spending the time to review the ED process, outside of taking my order and taking a deposit. Buddy, the color thing was to add some humor to this thread, which is one example of many of my concerns that I felt an experience CA or i.e. professional salesman brings to the table. These folks have a history and get lots of referrals from bimmerfest members, that works for "ME":thumbup:, maybe not "YOU".



pharding said:


> Some sales people even, if they are sponsors, rely on "ghost stories", and marketing hype in order to troll for business here. Trolling is supposedly not permitted here. If some here choose to believe "Ghost Stories", good for them. European Delivery is not rocket science. BMW has long standing experience with European Delivery and just built a $500 million dollar building for that purpose in Munich. They have not and will not let the BMW European Delivery Experience become the complicated screwed up experience that some of the sales people here paint it out to be. People across the US rely on local CA's to provide a very simple and straightforward service in placing an order for a BMW European Delivery car. The BMW system works quite well.


 I agree that it's not rocket science, but the experience person avoids all the little mistakes and pays attention to the little details. Once the order and all the paperwork is filled out and you pay for the car, then BMW takes over on the ED process. Until re-delivery and then you work with your CA again. So, yes once the order is in BMW takes over, but that is not the bulk of the process that you would need an experienced CA for to help you in your process. 
Actually, pharding you are 100% right!:thumbup:
BMW has made a lot of effort to ensure that no matter whom or where, you buy your new BMW from its going to be perfect every time. So, why should I limit myself to local dealers:dunno:? It's the same car right? So, ideally in a free market and global economy, I should buy my car from the person that gives me the best price (check), best customer service (check), overall piece of mind (check) and experience (check).
Thank you for helping me validate my decision and trusting the number of other bimmerfest members that have recommended these folks and why I went with a board sponsor ED specialist.

Cheers and bottoms up :drink:


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

horatiub said:


> seriously...
> 
> this thread and the ED forum has become a personal vendetta.
> 
> ...


You and I agree on that one. They need to stop the sales people incessantly trolling for business and sales people overstating what they do by telling "ghost stories" for their financial benefit. If the complaints pile up about unethical business practices and gross overstatement of a sales person, even if the company is a sponsor, then they should take action. If the company has questionable business practices that is another reason to stop the trolling for business.

The original post was about the questionable value of having a car shipped to Chicago from the VDC in New York and then shipped back to New York just because a salesman claims to be an expert on European Delivery. Another salesman jumps in to defend the practice as if he has nothing to gain by the practice. Then you have friends of the salesman jumping in to defend the practice. Like they have something impartial to add. I have posted on BMW Enthusiast Forums for years well before trolling for ED business came to these message boards. I have done European Delivery 4 times. I have a realistic understanding of what BMW European Delivery is all about and I have something to contribute without financial gain.


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## Bombay Jay (Mar 20, 2006)

In almost every industry people believe in and want to deal with people with experience, and I believe that purchasing a car (expecially thru ED) is no different. I came to this board prior to doing my ED and found a wealth of information regarding my car and the ED process. 

I have heard enough horror stories of people getting to Munich and finding out that their car didn't have this option or didn't have that option or was not configured correctly. What a let down that would be (at least to some degree). The feeling you get when you go through those doors into the decorated delivery area is amazing and to see your car built in the correct configuration tops it off. I could not imagine the differing emotions that you would feel and problems you would have to worry about if it was not correct. Yes, BMW ED usually does the right thing, but who wants to deal or worry about that.

Again, most people, when doing something for the first time want to deal with someone with experience. Just think, if you are building a house you most likely wouldn't pick a rookie homebuilder to do it. 

That is why I believe that it is important that you deal with someone with experience in the ED program. I discussed the ED program with several CA's until I found one that I was comfortable with. The first few I talked with knew less than me about the ED program and I knew that could be a problem. The CA that I chose gave me a comfort level that told me that he was the one to deal with. He kept me informed of where we were in the process the whole way throught the process. And for that I was grateful, no worries on my part and got the car exactly as I wanted when I wanted.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

pharding said:


> You and I agree on that one. They need to stop the sales people incessantly trolling for business and sales people overstating what they do by telling "ghost stories" for their financial benefit. If the complaints pile up about unethical business practices and gross overstatement of a sales person, even if the company is a sponsor, then they should take action. If the company has questionable business practices that is another reason to stop the trolling for business.
> 
> The original post was about the questionable value of having a car shipped to Chicago from the VDC in New York and then shipped back to New York just because a salesman claims to be an expert on European Delivery. Another salesman jumps in to defend the practice as if he has nothing to gain by the practice. Then you have friends of the salesman jumping in to defend the practice. Like they have something impartial to add. I have posted on BMW Enthusiast Forums for years well before trolling for ED business came to these message boards. I have done European Delivery 4 times. I have a realistic understanding of what BMW European Delivery is all about and I have something to contribute without financial gain.


This is a commercial board. Sponsors pay for the ability to be able to solicit members. It is not the duty of the owners of this board to police the sponsors, and decide what claims against them have merit and which do not.

Personally all of my solicitations have been discreet and to the point, and I have yet to receive any complaints about the nature or conduct of my business here at bimmerfest.

I don't know how Irv has wronged you, but it's in the past and it's over. Now thousands of people know all about it. So believe me when I tell you that you've already paid him back for whatever damage he's done to you.

If you truly want to contribute to the community you need to find more constructive ways of doing it than by tearing down an individual or company.


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

philippek said:


> This is a commercial board. Sponsors pay for the ability to be able to solicit members. It is not the duty of the owners of this board to police the sponsors, and decide what claims against them have merit and which do not....


The primary purpose of this board for the sharing of information between BMW Enthusiasts, not selling stuff to BMW Enthusiasts. Mindless posts just to keep one's name and business out there, inflated claims, ghost stories, and constant trolling for business goes well beyond acceptable decorum. At some point it becomes an unending stream of propaganda. I respect your discretion, I wish that others would follow suit. (Notice that I used the plural in others.) Shameless exploitation of this message board and other BMW boards because one is a sponsor may be somehow permitted, but it is totally contrary to the fundamental purpose of this message board and other BMW Enthusiast Boards. And when one hears of a disconcerting level of dissatisfaction of fellow Enthusiasts about their experience with a self-proclaimed ED expert, then one can't help but question all of the self-promoting marketing hype and propaganda.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

pharding said:


> The primary purpose of this board for the sharing of information between BMW Enthusiasts, not selling stuff to BMW Enthusiasts. Mindless posts just to keep one's name and business out there, inflated claims, ghost stories, and constant trolling for business goes well beyond acceptable decorum. At some point it becomes an unending stream of propaganda. I respect your discretion, I wish that others would follow suit. (Notice that I used the plural in others.) Shameless exploitation of this message board and other BMW boards because one is a sponsor may be somehow permitted, but it is totally contrary to the fundamental purpose of this message board and other BMW Enthusiast Boards. And when one hears of a disconcerting level of dissatisfaction of fellow Enthusiasts about their experience with a self-proclaimed ED expert, then one can't help but question all of the self-promoting marketing hype and propaganda.


Strong post! :thumbup:

You know, I remember back in the early 2003 when there was just one dealer sponsor here... TedW from Carbone BMW in Utica, NY. If there was one guy who wanted to emulate on the boards it was him. He's moved on to bigger and better things, but I personally feel an obligation to carry his torch. Do you know what his avatar says? It says "Ask Ted". What's more, below his name it says, "*Here to help*".

TedW was invaluable to the forums when he was a CA by contributing _unselfishly_ to the boards and I try to be like him every time I post on the boards. I will never forget when Jon scolded me for being a little too friendly with members and inviting them to do business with me before I became a sponsor. He was like.. If you be like TedW, you'll earn the respect and business of many and make a lot of friends here.

Now, the dealer sponsors has mushroomed to ten. pharding, Bimmerfest like many other internet websites derives it's revenue from sponsors and unfortunately, there's gonna have to be some advertising and effort to sell their wares. I know you know that. I think what you're pointing out is that it bothers you that that it's infected the discussion boards around here. True, there have indeed been some ED "ghost stories" floating around. I don't dispense them. I do emphathize with many of these stories posted by those who had to deal with the frustration and disappointment. [on a personal level, one of the toughest times of the year in those terms was breaking the news to Davisjl about the "October Bummer". He didn't put me out there publicly, but it was the hardest thing to deal with. Goes to show that even the ED Goliaths are not immune to some troubles]. Bad things can happen to even the best of us including me.

I have to to the museum with my wife now, but will respond further later.


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## Davisjl (Jun 6, 2006)

adrian's bmw said:


> [on a personal level, one of the toughest times of the year in those terms was breaking the news to Davisjl about the "October Bummer". He didn't put me out there publicly, but it was the hardest thing to deal with. Goes to show that even the ED Goliaths are not immune to some troubles]. Bad things can happen to even the best of us including me.


When you educate yourself, pick a CA that you feel comfortable and then follow up constantly and still have your ED evaporate... you get a little jaded to the experience. However, having said that, I can't deny the wealth of knowledge and experience the CA/sponsor's add to this board.

I'ver personally decided not to buy a BMW, but I can tell you from looking around the net at other forum groups... this one is by far the best I've found. It's a very valuable resource to BMW owners and potential owners and it would not be the same without the input from the likes of Irv and Adrian. *Everyone here should be proud of this forum group and be happy it has knowledgable posters like Irv and Adrian. *

In any "world" of annonymous posting, you should take everything posted with a grain of salt and verify it to you satisfaction before you take it as "Truth". This holds true for this forum group as well as any other forum group out there.

Bottom line, I'm glad that people like Irv and Adrian are spending time on here and feel they should reap the rewards of spending their time on the boards with sales. No person on here that I've seen has every been told that they MUST use Irv or Adrian and in the end it's each buyers responsiblity to use the CA/dealer they feel best about.


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## bagbklyn (Apr 28, 2006)

Davisjl said:


> When you educate yourself, pick a CA that you feel comfortable and then follow up constantly and still have your ED evaporate... you get a little jaded to the experience. However, having said that, I can't deny the wealth of knowledge and experience the CA/sponsor's add to this board.
> 
> I'ver personally decided not to buy a BMW, but I can tell you from looking around the net at other forum groups... this one is by far the best I've found. It's a very valuable resource to BMW owners and potential owners and it would not be the same without the input from the likes of Irv and Adrian. *Everyone here should be proud of this forum group and be happy it has knowledgable posters like Irv and Adrian. *
> 
> ...


Well Said!!!:thumbup:


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## mwagner1 (Aug 13, 2004)

Davisjl said:


> When you educate yourself, pick a CA that you feel comfortable and then follow up constantly and still have your ED evaporate... you get a little jaded to the experience. However, having said that, I can't deny the wealth of knowledge and experience the CA/sponsor's add to this board.
> 
> I've personally decided not to buy a BMW, but I can tell you from looking around the net at other forum groups... this one is by far the best I've found. It's a very valuable resource to BMW owners and potential owners and it would not be the same without the input from the likes of Irv and Adrian. *Everyone here should be proud of this forum group and be happy it has knowledgeable posters like Irv and Adrian. *
> 
> ...


AMEN...let us PLEASE end this UGLY and VINDICATIVE thread...


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

mwagner1 said:


> AMEN...let us PLEASE end this UGLY and VINDICATIVE thread...


+1


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## mcg-doc (May 3, 2005)

Kamdog said:


> old Russian proverb: Trust, but verify. (Regan called it a Russian proverb, I don't know if it is or isn't).


It is.


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## mcg-doc (May 3, 2005)

pharding said:


> Some sales people even, if they are sponsors, rely on "ghost stories", and marketing hype in order to troll for business here


Before our first ED, I did extensive reading on this forum. Then I went to my local BMW, just as you recommend. Their answer was "ED? Now, You don't THAT, do you?" I even talked to the sales manager. He too new little about the ED. So, I decided to take my business some where else. I asked for references on the forum and choose on of the sponsors. This persons is very knowledgeable and accommodating. Moreover, he helped us greatly when the wheels on the car were stolen on the way from Europe. In a few weeks we are going back to Munich for the second ED.


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