# Official BMW DEF top off policy



## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Flyingman said:


> Any other time would not be covered unless you can prove it was somehow a defect or they failed to fill it properly in the first place, i.e. a warranty or delivery problem.


How do you reconcil that with their public press release statement of "Since all BMWs sold in the US benefit from The BMW Maintenance Program, the refilling of the DEF tanks will be a no-charge service for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles?"

They did not have any qualifiers or footnotes with that statement.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I have yet to see someone make it to 15k for an oil change. I think the most I saw was someone stating a hair under 11k. My first change I think was in the 6k range and due to time and not because of mileage. My car currently says oil change I think at 10k, I have been wondering if that means in 10k miles or at 10k because if at then seems like a very short lifespan for that oil.


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## jpeytonii (Feb 18, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> Guys, do we have any statistics on how many folks are not making their 15k oil change interval? I think I'm about halfway there, mine currently says it should happen at 13k.


The standard oil change intervals are different for the diesels. BMW has specified 13K for the 335d and 11K for the X5 35d. YMMV


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Has anyone made it to 13k on the 335d for an oil change?


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## Tedj101 (Nov 24, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Well, I'm not a lawyer but I deal with OEM's all the time.
> 
> I think BMW has not been ambiguous that "regularly scheduled" DEF Change and Fill (at oil change interval) is covered.
> 
> ...


My computer estimates about 13.5 for my first service. No problems with DEF yet...


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Snipe656 said:


> ... seems like a very short lifespan for that oil.


In general, diesels have shorter oil life, primarily due to higher particulate (soot) and blow-by contamination, as compared to gasoline engines.

At 8,000 miles, my 35d is showing a change at 11,000 miles.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Penguin said:


> In general, diesels have shorter oil life, primarily due to higher particulate (soot) and blow-by contamination, as compared to gasoline engines.
> 
> At 8,000 miles, my 35d is showing a change at 11,000 miles.


I've always heard the opposite is true :dunno:
I thought it was because gasoline doesn't play as well with the engine oil...


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I said seems short because it would mean basically 3500 miles between the first and second changes with a large percentage of my driving being freeway. It had read higher after the first change but slowly went down with some driving. Guess I will never worry about running out of DEF at the rate it is calling for oil changes.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

d geek said:


> I've always heard the opposite is true :dunno:
> I thought it was because gasoline doesn't play as well with the engine oil...


Gasoline dilution can be an issue with engine oils, but it will mostly "boil off" if the engine oil gets to operating temperature for a while. But the diesel soot problems are one of the reasons diesel engine oil has been a different spec than gasoline -- diesel engine oil needs to keep a higher level of particulates in suspension and neutralize more acidity, in general.


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## jpeytonii (Feb 18, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> I said seems short because it would mean basically 3500 miles between the first and second changes with a large percentage of my driving being freeway. It had read higher after the first change but slowly went down with some driving. Guess I will never worry about running out of DEF at the rate it is calling for oil changes.


Reading your earlier post you state that the first oil change was due to time. This begs the question - Did your dealer reset the oil life monitor?

The other item is the 10K mile figure you reference. Is this the number that comes on in the instrument cluster at start-up? If so - that is a count-down timer to service required - i.e. you would have 10K miles to your next oil change. "Vehicle Info" in iDrive shows maintenace requirements by date or total mileage.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

They reset it and actually it got reset again during one of the other vacations to the dealer. You answered my question though in regards to if that is an actual mileage on the display or miles till(countdown). I don't have iDrive if I use the control on the wheel though that is the number I get which matches the numer flashed at startup.


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## tcfila (Oct 22, 2009)

Received the DEF warning on Sunday (2010 X5D). Just under 10,000 miles. Have an appt tomorrow with dealer...going to be interesting. I'm hoping the change the oil and flush DEF. Does anyone know how close to 11K miles you have to be before they do the oil change?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

So the vehicle says it needs an oil change in 1k miles but the DEF warning is going off? I'd think in a situation like that, they'd do the oil change a little early.


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## tcfila (Oct 22, 2009)

I guess if they give me a hard time, I can simply leave...drive another 800 miles and go to ANOTHER dealer!


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

d geek said:


> I've always heard the opposite is true :dunno:
> I thought it was because gasoline doesn't play as well with the engine oil...


Penguin is correct. Higher compression, more blow by, more contamination of the oil, tougher duty, more frequent oil changes.


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## tcfila (Oct 22, 2009)

I had my oil change and DEF with no issues from dealer.


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## fonger (Jan 5, 2005)

Has anyone done an 'annual oil change' with a DEF flush?

We'll probably only put about 5-6k miles on the new X5d a year and since the DEF is only suppose to last about a year(not 100% sure though) it would need to be changed as well.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

fonger said:


> Has anyone done an 'annual oil change' with a DEF flush?
> 
> We'll probably only put about 5-6k miles on the new X5d a year and since the DEF is only suppose to last about a year(not 100% sure though) it would need to be changed as well.


I did and it took forever for the DEF part of it. Actually took so long that the guy said next time to get a loaner car. Want to say I was there for 5-6 hours total. My guess is it had to do with the flushing of so much fluid. At the rate I have not been driving the car this year, I might very well end up doing another annual change this year.


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## fonger (Jan 5, 2005)

Snipe656 said:


> I did and it took forever for the DEF part of it. Actually took so long that the guy said next time to get a loaner car. Want to say I was there for 5-6 hours total. My guess is it had to do with the flushing of so much fluid. At the rate I have not been driving the car this year, I might very well end up doing another annual change this year.


Thanks for the heads up.


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## lalitkanteti (Nov 15, 2009)

fonger said:


> Has anyone done an 'annual oil change' with a DEF flush?
> 
> We'll probably only put about 5-6k miles on the new X5d a year and since the DEF is only suppose to last about a year(not 100% sure though) it would need to be changed as well.


Shelf life for DEF is 2 years.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Yeah, well when stored in the proper temperatures then it is two years. Just found this response to the very question:



> Q. What is the shelf life of DEF?
> A. The shelf life of DEF is a function of ambient storage temperature. DEF will degrade over time depending on temperature and exposure to sun light. Expectations for shelf life as defined by ISO Spec 22241-3 are the minimum expectations for shelf life when stored at constant temperatures. If stored between 10 and 90 deg F, shelf life will easily be one year. If the maximum temperature does not exceed approximately 75 deg F for an extended period of time, the shelf life will be two years.


Given that temps here are routinely over 75 degrees then I am betting a whole lot that the temps of my DEF tanks are well over that range. Plus we have no idea how old the fluid was before getting put into the vehicles.

With all that said, I am not worried one bit about the age of the fluid in my car.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Snipe656 said:


> Yeah, well when stored in the proper temperatures then it is two years. Just found this response to the very question:
> 
> Given that temps here are routinely over 75 degrees then I am betting a whole lot that the temps of my DEF tanks are well over that range. Plus we have no idea how old the fluid was before getting put into the vehicles.
> 
> With all that said, I am not worried one bit about the age of the fluid in my car.


Interestingly enough, I bought a bottle of DEF from my dealer since I am going on a trip, and the bottle said two things: (1) there was an inkjet number/date on it implying it was bottled last September, and (b) the label says to discard it after five years.

The five years seems extremely optimistic, from what I have read everywhere else... where the stability of DEF is generally given as 1-2 years.


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## lalitkanteti (Nov 15, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Yeah, well when stored in the proper temperatures then it is two years. Just found this response to the very question:
> 
> Given that temps here are routinely over 75 degrees then I am betting a whole lot that the temps of my DEF tanks are well over that range. Plus we have no idea how old the fluid was before getting put into the vehicles.
> 
> With all that said, I am not worried one bit about the age of the fluid in my car.


Makes lot of sense. My dealer said anything over 2 yrs is not good. He might have said 2 yrs based on MA temps.


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## fonger (Jan 5, 2005)

Regarding the shelf life of a DEF bottle....i wonder if the sensor would be able to recognize that the DEF in the tank is pass it shelf life, ie it's no longer or is less effective in what it's suppose to do.

2nd question: I heard that audi and VW dealerships also sell no-spill DEF bottles just like the BMW branded one but for less. Can anyone confirm this? I want to pick up one for backup but don't want to pay $40+ for a BMW bottle.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

fonger said:


> Regarding the shelf life of a DEF bottle....i wonder if the sensor would be able to recognize that the DEF in the tank is pass it shelf life, ie it's no longer or is less effective in what it's suppose to do.
> 
> 2nd question: I heard that audi and VW dealerships also sell no-spill DEF bottles just like the BMW branded one but for less. Can anyone confirm this? I want to pick up one for backup but don't want to pay $40+ for a BMW bottle.


Someone did in another thread, they went to a VW dealer. If I remember right the part number is the same on the bottle from there as from BMW. The bottle he/she got from VW has the same end on it so it plugs into the BMW just fine. I do not remember what they paid but it was significantly less than from BMW.


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## lalitkanteti (Nov 15, 2009)

fonger said:


> Regarding the shelf life of a DEF bottle....i wonder if the sensor would be able to recognize that the DEF in the tank is pass it shelf life, ie it's no longer or is less effective in what it's suppose to do.
> 
> 2nd question: I heard that audi and VW dealerships also sell no-spill DEF bottles just like the BMW branded one but for less. Can anyone confirm this? I want to pick up one for backup but don't want to pay $40+ for a BMW bottle.


BMW version of same bottle is $23 inclusive of taxes. I will put up a pic with specs of the bottle tomorrow


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

fonger said:


> I want to pick up one for backup but don't want to pay $40+ for a BMW bottle.


My dealer charged me a bit less than $19 for a BMW half gallon bottle.


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## fonger (Jan 5, 2005)

Penguin said:


> My dealer charged me a bit less than $19 for a BMW half gallon bottle.


Good to know, I thought I read someone that someone paid $40. I'll check with my dealership when my x5d come in.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

fonger said:


> Good to know, I thought I read someone that someone paid $40. I'll check with my dealership when my x5d come in.


May be true. The "list price" on my invoice was $38.00. My dealer's parts department has quite good prices on maintenance items such as oil, filters, etc. Their other parts prices are not too bad, but nothing particularly special, e.g., about 10% off list.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

which one do you go to Penguin?
btw VW charges 13.95 for 2.5gl, they did not have 0.5g which I wanted to buy at the time


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

fonger said:


> Regarding the shelf life of a DEF bottle....i wonder if the sensor would be able to recognize that the DEF in the tank is pass it shelf life, ie it's no longer or is less effective in what it's suppose to do.
> 
> 2nd question: I heard that audi and VW dealerships also sell no-spill DEF bottles just like the BMW branded one but for less. Can anyone confirm this? I want to pick up one for backup but don't want to pay $40+ for a BMW bottle.


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5150079&postcount=2428
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5150150&postcount=2431 ---- photo
:thumbup:


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

fonger said:


> Regarding the shelf life of a DEF bottle....i wonder if the sensor would be able to recognize that the DEF in the tank is pass it shelf life, ie it's no longer or is less effective in what it's suppose to do.


The BMW diesel has an NOx sensor, I believe, and I suspect it uses it to trim the DEF injection amount (sort of like fuel trims for th fuel injection system in gasoline engines), If this is true, then at a minimum, the consumption of DEF would likely increase if the DEF is degraded.


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## RoBMWED (Aug 3, 2007)

*DEF and other parts/supplies prices*

Are you guys getting the BMWCCA membership discounts for all of the stuff you are getting from your dealerships ?


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Penguin said:


> The BMW diesel has an NOx sensor, I believe, and I suspect it uses it to trim the DEF injection amount (sort of like fuel trims for th fuel injection system in gasoline engines), If this is true, then at a minimum, the consumption of DEF would likely increase if the DEF is degraded.


Penquin, depends where that sensor is located. If it is after injection and the converter, that would pass the logic test. In a gas car the sensor is in the exhaust pipe before the cat converters, so it has no idea what is happening on the back end.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Flyingman said:


> Penquin, depends where that sensor is located. If it is after injection and the converter, that would pass the logic test.


It is, according to this:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2007/session4/deer07_mattes.pdf

See page 16


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Gas cars have a sensor before and after the cat so that the ecu does know how effective the cat is being. I'd hope the nox sensor on these is something along those lines but perhaps it is not.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=PN73&mospid=51054&btnr=13_1288&hg=13&fg=15
335d has two NOX sensors :thumbup:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Gas cars have a sensor before and after the cat so that the ecu does know how effective the cat is being. I'd hope the nox sensor on these is something along those lines but perhaps it is not.


I had my Cat converter (two fo them) removed on an older car when I was foriegn. They also removed the two NOx sensors. That was fine until I moved back stateside and had to pay for tow converters and two sensors. It wasn't cheap but otherwise my car would not pass emissions test.

In fact the DOT had to inspect and certify my car to verify it was in full compliance, and I had to have local police verify it was not a stolen vehicle. I was the original owner! They said it was policy, the law.

I thought the sensors were before the converters, but after would certainly make more sense. The converter is basiaclly a passive device, it is just getting hot and making a chemical reaction. It has no moving parts or adjustments.

Anyway, I stopped fooling around under the hood since my college days.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

All ODBII gas cars have the pre and post O2 sensors. Some pre ODBII cars have it as well. For example my 1995 Galant has them and has a hybrid ODBII system. I think 1996 onward cars are ODBII. My old 2000 Accord I seem to remember having three oxygen sensors, one in the header then pre and post the converter. Most ODBII cars, if not all, will not run correctly if you simply remove the cat and sensors, have to trick the computer.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Does anyone out there know if there is actually a way to determine or measure how much DEF is actually in the tank? Perhaps it is visual like on the brake fluid or windshield wiper fluid?

I'm planning a trip and would like to know if I'm anywhere close to running out. Thinking of getting one of those small bottles with fill spout to have just in case.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

It sounds like the dealership has some way of measuring the amounts in both tanks but I do not think we as the owners have any way of measuring the levels.


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## DnA Diesel (Jul 31, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> It sounds like the dealership has some way of measuring the amounts in both tanks but I do not think we as the owners have any way of measuring the levels.


...without a Bav Tech scanner. Anyone with a BT want to check if you can verify active/passive DEF tank levels with the scanner?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Someone else on here or maybe it was another forum was saying how the BT does not let you do it and they were inquiring on if it will do it later on.


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## DnA Diesel (Jul 31, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> Someone else on here or maybe it was another forum was saying how the BT does not let you do it and they were inquiring on if it will do it later on.


Ah, thanks Snipe.

Cheers


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## beemer01 (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm surprised that BMW didn't supply any type of user gauges for DEF seeing that is almost important as gas if your car has empty DEF tanks. I sat in my friend's GT-R and it looked a video game console with so much information about the car.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I thought I read once that video game designers were used for that aspect of the GT-R.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> I thought the tank(when full) was supposed to last 15k, even thought some people on here finally did their first oil change around 13k miles and had never gotten a DEF low level notice.


Snipe, I got 13k without a DEF warning.:thumbup:

Wished I could have popped into the repair shop to see firsthand all they did.


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## beemer01 (Aug 12, 2010)

Can independent BMW shops do the DEF refill and/or flush? Has anybody done this?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Since the port for filling looks to be some sort of standard then I'd think an independent shop that does a bit of work on a variety of vehicles might have the flushing equipment. Any shop though could certainly top it off since that is pretty straight forward with the smaller sized bottles.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

A couple months back I asked the shop foreman at my dealer about measuring DEF levels. Going from my, possibly faulty, memory and paraphrasing...

There is a sensor. It measures basically three levels (or is it four?)
- full. You might not see this even when full. Dunno. 
- present
- low (sets off 1000 mile warning)
- maybe empty?

To drain, as I understand it, they basically siphon out the old fluid. The dealer has uni-task equipment for drain and refill. If the equipment isn't working right then you might not drain all the old DEF and/or might not refill sufficient quantity. That's one reason I recommended to ask how much was drained and how much was refilled. 

My car had such a problem. Low DEF warning about half way through the CBS interval. My dealer made it right at no cost to me. I got an apology and an explanation that they serviced a few cars before realizing that something in the equipment was clogged and causing cars not to fully refill. I got a 535i loner dropped off at my house, my car went in to refill DEF, then my car was returned at the end of the day. As I've said before...I'm quite pleased with performance BMW in chapel hill, NC. They seem to sell and service a bunch of diesels, too.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Few links related to DEF in ds:
1) DEF Extraction and Refill (procedure) - Link
2) Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) Extractor/Filler (equipment) Link
3) "Exhaust Fluid Low" Warning Displayed Before Oil Service - Link
4) Proper Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) Level in SCR Reservoirs - Link
5) E90 M57Y - Diagnosis of SCR Metering Valve for Fault Code 4D35 - Link


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

tlak77 said:


> Few links related to DEF in ds


Thanks a bunch for the links.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

tlak77 said:


> Few links related to DEF in ds:
> 1) DEF Extraction and Refill (procedure) - Link
> 2) Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) Extractor/Filler (equipment) Link
> 3) "Exhaust Fluid Low" Warning Displayed Before Oil Service - Link
> ...


Great links!!

I find this comment interesting (SCR Metering Valve for Fault Code 4D35)

"If the outside temperature is 25°F or lower, the DEF will freeze. If this lower temperature lasts for an extended period of time, the DEF in the passive tank will never fully thaw, and transfer of fluid will cease. Only the DEF in the active tank will be utilized for the SCR injection. A full active tank will have enough DEF for approximately 3,000 miles of driving. If freezing is found to be a root cause, inform the customer that he or she may be required to top up the active tank periodically until the DEF in the passive tank has thawed."

I wonder if this is what happenned to Chris last winter.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl
Very possible, also my SA sad that sometimes DEF crystallize and clogs the injection nozzle as well.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

tlak77 said:


> BMWTurboDzl
> Very possible, also my SA sad that sometimes *DEF crystallize and clogs the injection nozzle* as well.


Thats scary.


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## railroader (Apr 12, 2010)

tlak77 said:


> Few links related to DEF in ds:
> 1) DEF Extraction and Refill (procedure) - Link
> 2) Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) Extractor/Filler (equipment) Link
> 3) "Exhaust Fluid Low" Warning Displayed Before Oil Service - Link
> ...


tlak77--can't thank you enough for these links! I read through them all and learned a ton of 'red meat not hearsay' information about our SCR/DEF systems! In one bulletin, did you notice it actually says "both active and passive tanks are filled to full at the factory." Still, there are occasions where an owner will get the "low DEF" notice way too soon and gives some of the reasons why that might have happened. And now I know which one of the filler spouts is the "active" and which is the passive-- I drew a diagram on my factory half gallon DEF bottle so I know which spout to refill it into (if necessary)- the LOWER (active.) (E90) Thanks again, tlak...:thumbup:


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

:thumbup:
Pretty cool animation of how system work; not a BMW system but principal is the same


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

tlak77 said:


> I got my car back form the dealer. They listed code 46EB and referred to it as recirculating pump plausibility. Also, passive tank was at the 60% level and active at the 30% (had about 400 miles left) Updated software, checked all related pumps, refilled both tanks, test drove it checked levels - ok. I have no idea if this is a good outcome or bad but I got my car back, and I'm not driving 328i anymore


Just got my car back. Car had thrown this fault 76 times!!! Funny as the dealer only managed to pull this code after I elected not to take my car back with this issue still outstanding (initial answer was tank needed refill). Unfortunately they are still saying this was CAUSED by frozen fluid. I am throwing BS flag because my passive tank was at 100%. That means fluid NEVER fed from one tank to the other. I assure you I had plenty of time in October and November (when i put the first 3000 of 5000 miles on my car) to drive around in warm weather. Aggravated. Why wont BMW stand behind this issue?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I think it is more why will the BMW dealership not stand behind it.


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

taibanl said:


> Just got my car back. Car had thrown this fault 76 times!!! Funny as the dealer only managed to pull this code after I elected not to take my car back with this issue still outstanding (initial answer was tank needed refill). Unfortunately they are still saying this was CAUSED by frozen fluid. I am throwing BS flag because my passive tank was at 100%. That means fluid NEVER fed from one tank to the other. I assure you I had plenty of time in October and November (when i put the first 3000 of 5000 miles on my car) to drive around in warm weather. Aggravated. Why wont BMW stand behind this issue?


FYI - is there any pattern to how OFTEN a car will throw a code...every time its started? randomly?


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## Philm35 (Aug 19, 2010)

> Few links related to DEF in ds:
> 1) DEF Extraction and Refill (procedure) - Link
> 2) Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) Extractor/Filler (equipment) Link
> 3) "Exhaust Fluid Low" Warning Displayed Before Oil Service - Link
> ...


I'm getting 404 errors on these links. Is there another way to get this info? Thanks.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

If you want the SIBs you have to go to www.bmwtis.com, pay ~$30/day..... and I guess view them 
"Back door" has been closed since mid January.


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

tlak77 said:


> If you want the SIBs you have to go to www.bmwtis.com, pay ~$30/day..... and I guess view them
> "Back door" has been closed since mid January.


If someone needs certain ones, pm me email address and which ones.


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## NJCRD (Feb 10, 2011)

Has anyone deleted the DEF system as the Ford Powerstroke and GM Duramax owners have?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

NJCRD said:


> Has anyone deleted the DEF system as the Ford Powerstroke and GM Duramax owners have?


I did not realize they were doing that. Did they have to reprogram anything? Seems like the cost would be pretty high between the exhaust and the programming.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Snipe656 said:


> I did not realize they were doing that. Did they have to reprogram anything? Seems like the cost would be pretty high between the exhaust and the programming.


Assuming it could be done, it could get expensive to put the system back in if the emissions testing people discover it during their check of the vehicle. I suspect it also would void rather large portions of the warranty, in addition to being illegal.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Down here it would not be a huge deal if for some reason the odbcii reported something wrong during a state inspection. They do no visual inspection of that stuff which is why most diesel pickups around here run around with not cats and have no issues. I'd imagine if they are pulling the DEF systems that they are reprogramming them so nothing is reported. After all who would go through the trouble to pull the system and not have flashed/programmer the truck since I'd assume it all is being done for power. Regardless I am curious how they are doing it, probably will inquire with some of my tuning friends.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

NJCRD said:


> Has anyone deleted the DEF system as the Ford Powerstroke and GM Duramax owners have?


I think the DPF is integrated with the BMW CPU, so trying to remove the system would also require significant rewriting of BMW code, which is not easily accomplished. One would need to have a bottomless pocketbook to do it.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Snipe656 said:


> Down here it would not be a huge deal if for some reason the odbcii reported something wrong during a state inspection. They do no visual inspection of that stuff which is why most diesel pickups around here run around with not cats and have no issues.


Around here in Illinois, they use a mirror to look under the vehicle and confirm that the cat is still in-place when I have an emissions check.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

62Lincoln said:


> I think the DPF is integrated with the BMW CPU, so trying to remove the system would also require significant rewriting of BMW code, which is not easily accomplished. One would need to have a bottomless pocketbook to do it.


Why would it not be as simple as remove the DEF and reflash the compute with the non DEF program used in European cars?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Penguin said:


> Around here in Illinois, they use a mirror to look under the vehicle and confirm that the cat is still in-place when I have an emissions check.


Here for 1996 and newer cars all they ever do for me is a safety inspection and a code scan. Older than that get the safety inspection and a sniffer test. When they do a sniffer test they do look for things like the cat being there. Most of them though have no clue what they are looking at, my old euro spec 928S had zero emissions equipment but always passed the visual and sniffer. My old 1982 C20 though would fail the visual but pass the sniffer which meant no sticker. So even with a visual I highly doubt they would know the DEF was missing.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Snipe656 said:


> Here for 1996 and newer cars all they ever do for me is a safety inspection and a code scan. Older than that get the safety inspection and a sniffer test. When they do a sniffer test they do look for things like the cat being there. Most of them though have no clue what they are looking at, my old euro spec 928S had zero emissions equipment but always passed the visual and sniffer. My old 1982 C20 though would fail the visual but pass the sniffer which meant no sticker. So even with a visual I highly doubt they would know the DEF was missing.


Where I live they have completely done away with the sniffer test to save money, so my old 1992 Explorer got a lifetime free pass, based on passing its last test, since it doesn't have OBD-II. It would never need another emissions test. Sadly, it finally gave up the ghost and I junked it last year.


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## clarkgd (Oct 15, 2010)

*DEF Warning at 9300 KM*

Thanks to Taibani who PM'd me the Special Information leaflet re early DEF warning.
I had my car into the dealer yesterday and sure enough the Passive tank was at 100 full and the Active Tank was low resulting in the NO START warning.
I will need to return the car for Warranty repair as obviously the pump is not working. I live in a cold climate but I keep my car in the garage and when driven to work it spends 8 hours each work day in an underground heated garage. This is ample time to keep the fluid liquid and so the pump should transfer when in liquid mode. If it loses prime because of frozen DEF then this is a design flaw and the designer needs to fix it under warranty.
They filled the Active Tank with a 2.5 gal jug (same part number as found elsewhere in this forum 83-19-0-440-158) as per the invoice until the repair is completed under warranty. The incessant bong is now gone and no more warning.
The mileage is the equivalent of about 5800 miles and less than 1/2 of the mileage until an oil change is due. If the passive is at 100% and the active of 2.5 gal capacity was full then I could have gotten about 11000 KM out of the active tank. Thus with the larger capacity of the Passive tank I would have had no problem reaching the full oil change interval which was the BMW intent (21000 KM under ideal driving conditions).
There is something that requires a design change which could be as simple as implementing a gravity feed between the tanks or something simple like a heating wire around an extended transfer pump intake. This cannot be rocket science.
It is something that I will continually monitor and ensure that I have documented proof of refills versus warnings against distance from this point forward as I am convinced that this is a design flaw and cold weather operation is not just a Canadian phenomenon.
Thanks again to Taibani.



taibanl said:


> If someone needs certain ones, pm me email address and which ones.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Snipe656 said:


> Why would it not be as simple as remove the DEF and reflash the compute with the non DEF program used in European cars?


I've read numerous anecdotal accounts about the persnickety quality of BMW's ECU and code; IIRC, each ECU is coded to that vehicle's VIN, for example. So if that were true, the reflash from a Euro car would have to have your car's VIN in there somewhere. I don't think that would be easily accomplished. The general impression I've gotten is that BMW actively discourages people from tinkering with their ECU's, and attempts to be very punitive when it occurs. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm just saying it wouldn't be cheap. There's a tuner down your way (Cobb) that just spent over a year of development time cracking the BMW ECU to offer tunes. Read about their thoughts on BMW. I imagine they would offer the revised tune for this project, but it would come at a siginificant price (presumably), since there's such a miniscule market for such a tune. I'm sure there is someone willing to invest the time and money to figure it out, but there's those twin bugaboos of time and money.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

If that is true then it means when these factory software updated come out that the update is specific to our VINs? I thought places in Europe already offer flash tunes for these?


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Snipe656 said:


> If that is true then it means when these factory software updated come out that the update is specific to our VINs? I thought places in Europe already offer flash tunes for these?


The mechanic told me the reprogramming came via internet connection from a central location tailored for each VIN.

Don't know if it is true...


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

My guess is it is kind of like other automobiles where the vin is more a parameter placed into the software at the time of burning. I am sure it is not cheap but the big question to me is how much. I'd never do it but I te hot hodder in me is still curious.


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