# When was your first oil change indicated?



## ncbuckeye (Sep 9, 2011)

So, I'm curious as to when the computer told you to have your oil changed the first time? I'm at close to 6000 miles, and I'm trying to figure out if I should plan an early change on my own. I've researched both sides of the change early vs listen to BMW argument (more than I should have), but I'm still torn on an early change. I called the dealer the other day, just to ask how much it would be for an "in between" oil change, and was told not to worry about it- the car will tell me when it needs changed. She also said that the change is indicated at 13K, but most of their diesels have been coming in around 9-10K, per the computer.

Mine hasn't changed it's mind a bit on the 13K yet- did yours later on? 

Thanks!


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

I changed my oil and filter at 2500 miles at my expense. The OBC didn't indicate an oil change was needed until 13K miles. My driving is about 75% highway so I was not surprised at the 13K mile interval. More stop and go or low speed driving might result in a lower interval.


----------



## 4pipes (Aug 4, 2006)

My first indication came around 8500 miles.


----------



## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Mine ran out on time. Once the year expires it stops displaying the miles to oil service. As this time I expect to do the 13K miles in a year I was planning on pulling a sample at about 7K miles and send to Blackstone labs to see how it's doing and make my decision from there.


----------



## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

ncbuckeye said:


> So, I'm curious as to when the computer told you to have your oil changed the first time? I'm at close to 6000 miles, and I'm trying to figure out if I should plan an early change on my own. I've researched both sides of the change early vs listen to BMW argument (more than I should have), but I'm still torn on an early change. I called the dealer the other day, just to ask how much it would be for an "in between" oil change, and was told not to worry about it- the car will tell me when it needs changed. She also said that the change is indicated at 13K, but most of their diesels have been coming in around 9-10K, per the computer.
> 
> Mine hasn't changed it's mind a bit on the 13K yet- did yours later on?
> 
> Thanks!


I generally change at about 10K, although the car is not calling for it that early. Many on this forum suggest much earlier, but I don't worry about them. Follow the advice of the manual and your service advisor....or not.


----------



## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

rmorin49 said:


> I changed my oil and filter at 2500 miles at my expense. The OBC didn't indicate an oil change was needed until 13K miles. My driving is about 75% highway so I was not surprised at the 13K mile interval. *More stop and go or low speed driving might result in a lower interval.*


Ya think?


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Mine was around 6k miles but it was telling me because it had been 12 months since the car was made.


----------



## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

My last 2 oil change happened around 11k miles interval.


----------



## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

last 2 oil changes were around 13k and this time its saying 10k. I do early oil changes around 6k. Its no harm if I change my oil early so why not.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

ncbuckeye said:


> Mine hasn't changed it's mind a bit on the 13K yet- did yours later on?


My mileage estimate drops like a rock as I approach the 12 month period for an oil change. My guess is it starts dropping 4-5 weeks before it is going to hit the 12 month period. That has been the case for all three of my oil changes.


----------



## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

Here is the advice of a lubricants engineer on the topic. He now works for Exxon/Mobil in the area of lubes for heavy duty diesels and formerly worked for Castrol and was part of the team back in the 90's that developed Castrol RS 10w60 that later became the Castrol TWS spec'd by BMW for M cars. Incidentally, I don't think any of you that have used shorter oil change intervals have done any "harm" if that 's the right word to use. 

A lubricants engineer***8217;s comments on first 335d oil change on factory fill ***8211;

My email question to the lube engineer:


Something you said in the article (on used oil analysis) piqued my interest:
"Many modern engines have unique lubricants as their Factory fill and in some cases a special specification lubricant many be needed for the first 10k miles or so. This is for specific ***8220;bedding in***8221; reasons and often depends on the engine***8217;s design and certainly on its ***8220;wear face***8221; metallurgy! People that chose to ignore the Manufacturer***8217;s advice concerning the first oil change period and the lubricant to be used then are IMO quite foolhardy ***8211; especially if they intend to keep their vehicle for many years."

I have a new 2011 BMW 335d diesel. In the past, I've always changed the factory fill on my BMWs at about 1500 mi. I guess I got into this habit due to owning several different BMW M cars down thru the years (BMW always does a first oil change on M cars at 1500 mi). But, I am wondering if this would be appropriate on the 335d. BMW doesn't do an oil change (under their free maintenance program) until 10k-13k mi. I believe the factory fill on the 335d is a FUCHS oil similar to their Titan GT1 Pro Flex 5w30. I've noticed on several UOAs on BITOG from 335d owners, on the factory fill, that the oil has no zinc, which is a trademark of sorts on the FUCHS GT1 for diesels.

I know FUCHS makes good oils (and seems to specialize in factory fills) and I'm wondering, after reading your article, if I ought to delay replacing it, maybe even take it as far as BMW's 10-13k OCI. I have 2k mi on my 335d right now and was planning on doing an oil change at 3k mi (to wash out some of the wear metals) and then at about 5k mi OCIs thereafter. The service fill that BMW uses (I'm in the U.S.) is Castrol SLX Professional OE 5w30. 

Any advice you can give would be appreciated.

The lube engineer***8217;s response:

thanks for the email

It is best to follow the OEM's recommendation for the first OC. In your case - for peace of mind - I would go to around 9-10k

Recently a new engine in my Fleet required a 1kkms (600miles) oil and filter change. A waste? yes, but I know that the FF is a cheap Grp 2 product used for that purpose and that's the OEM's reason!

The service fill you allude to and FUCHS lubricants are top of the line products. FUCHS is the (part) FF for Daimler AG and for a number of others too. Their OEM Approved and Listed products are excellent for their intended task

FF lubricants can include special additives that are targeted to allow a trouble free and programmed pace of "bedding in". This is a product of the engine development process - it is the same for Heavy Truck engines too of course. These lubricants typically cannot be purchased at consumer level

BMW use at least two engine development organisations in Germany that conduct exhaustive field testing of components and lubricants. Sadly I can't divulge who they are but at least one of their Engineers is an ex Development Engineer from Daimler AG. He is a very skilled guy and I have spent quite a bit of time with him and the FUCHS and Castrol Lube Engineers

Enjoy your 335d and don't be too alarmed if some fuel dilution appears in your UOAs - within reason all parties are aware of this. OCIs are programmed around all of this data

I'm just about to leave for two months in Europe - and the Goodwood Revival in particular. It is Juan Manuel Fangio's memorial year - Mercedes will be their hence my visit - and a celebration of 70 years of the Spitfire! Goodwood was a WW2 Spitfire airfield


----------



## ncbuckeye (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks m6pwr for this informative post. I've always been curious of an expert's opinion on the matter.


----------



## 831Doug (Dec 20, 2011)

I got a call from the dealer before the car told me it was due for service. I think at about 6k miles.


----------



## ncbuckeye (Sep 9, 2011)

*Update- Not so easy Mityvac story*

I decided to do an intermediate change on my own. It wasn't as simple as I thought it should've been. I bought a Mityvac 7400 (first extraction- I've done many the "old" way). I wasn't sure which diameter of tubing to use, and since they both fit easily, I decided to use the biggest tubing. When I inserted the tubing, I pushed it in until I felt definite resistance. A couple pumps, and the oil was flowing- great! I waited there and at about 3 quarts it started spitting. Everything looked fine, so I figured the tube wasn't in far enough. I pushed past the resistance, and it did go in a good bit further. When I tried the pump again, it still was sputtering. What happened next really freaked me out. I tried to pull out the tube, and it wouldn't come out- it felt like it was hung up on something. I pulled very hard and it finally gave loose, but I really had to pull. When the tube came all the way out, there was a cut into the tube in two places, one was pretty deep, the other dented. I replaced this tube with the smaller diameter tube and never felt any resistance. I was able to get the rest out with the smaller tubing w/ no trouble.

Has this happened to anyone else?? Is there some kind of flap near the oil pan that the tubing was caught in?


----------



## 831Doug (Dec 20, 2011)

ncbuckeye said:


> I decided to do an intermediate change on my own. It wasn't as simple as I thought it should've been. I bought a Mityvac 7400 (first extraction- I've done many the "old" way). I wasn't sure which diameter of tubing to use, and since they both fit easily, I decided to use the biggest tubing. When I inserted the tubing, I pushed it in until I felt definite resistance. A couple pumps, and the oil was flowing- great! I waited there and at about 3 quarts it started spitting. Everything looked fine, so I figured the tube wasn't in far enough. I pushed past the resistance, and it did go in a good bit further. When I tried the pump again, it still was sputtering. What happened next really freaked me out. I tried to pull out the tube, and it wouldn't come out- it felt like it was hung up on something. I pulled very hard and it finally gave loose, but I really had to pull. When the tube came all the way out, there was a cut into the tube in two places, one was pretty deep, the other dented. I replaced this tube with the smaller diameter tube and never felt any resistance. I was able to get the rest out with the smaller tubing w/ no trouble.
> 
> Has this happened to anyone else?? Is there some kind of flap near the oil pan that the tubing was caught in?


Why did you decide to do an interim oil change?


----------



## ncbuckeye (Sep 9, 2011)

bimmerdiesel said:


> Its no harm if I change my oil early so why not.


This is how I feel, after spending way too much time reviewing the pros and cons of intermediate changes. I plan on sending a sample to Blackstone to have the oil analyzed.


----------



## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

ncbuckeye said:


> This is how I feel, after spending way too much time reviewing the pros and cons of intermediate changes. I plan on sending a sample to Blackstone to have the oil analyzed.


Exactly what I was going to do. Change the oil at 6500 miles and send to Blackstone. I'm just uncomfortable going 13K miles between changes.

So far I've had lots of oil changes. At 7500 miles when the car was first offered for sale by the dealer (was a service loaner, they did not reset anything). Then at 9200 miles because it time expired. Now that is driven regularly will be in more of a normal pattern. Expect to be doing more than 13K miles a year so will be by mileage, not time.

On all my gas BMWs, as a generally conservative driver, I was able to go much longer than initially indicated by the OBC, usually out to 16K-17K miles (was still changing oil in between). But on the d, it seems to track right at 13K miles, have not seen any variance due to driving conditions/style. Has anyone experienced otherwise?


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Wouldn't an early oil change be a potentionaly long term bad thing if BMW actually used some sort of break in oil or additive? Hasn't some of the Blackstone reports speculated that a break in oil was used by the factory? Just playing devils advocate because I don't think it really matters if you do an early or not.


----------



## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Snipe656 said:


> Wouldn't an early oil change be a potentionaly long term bad thing if BMW actually used some sort of break in oil or additive? Hasn't some of the Blackstone reports speculated that a break in oil was used by the factory? Just playing devils advocate because I don't think it really matters if you do an early or not.


Believe this discussion is more around long term oil change philosphy, not just the first oil change. There is no hard evidence to indicate anything other than the regular dealer supplied oil is used even from the factory. Think the question is about the removal of Zinc from the oil. As i understand it this is more important to long term wear than initial break-in.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

KeithS said:


> Believe this discussion is more around long term oil change philosphy, not just the first oil change. There is no hard evidence to indicate anything other than the regular dealer supplied oil is used even from the factory. Think the question is about the removal of Zinc from the oil. As i understand it this is more important to long term wear than initial break-in.


Well the thread is about when was the first oil change was indicated and comments are morphing to about when people did it earlier than indicated. I'd think if BMW actually did use a different oil and/or additive for initial break in that it could possibly matter if that was drained out prematurely to put in what is called for after that initial fill. BUT I am not trying to say they actually do use anything different initially or if they do that they do it for any sort of break in purposes. I am just simply trying to play devils advocate on it because really never will know for certain what they dump into it at the factory. Just trying to offer some food for thought for people perhaps on the fense to do it early or just trust what the factory says. I personally don't think it matters either way and people should just do them whenever it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside about their decision.


----------



## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

KeithS said:


> Believe this discussion is more around long term oil change philosphy, not just the first oil change. There is no hard evidence to indicate anything other than the regular dealer supplied oil is used even from the factory. Think the question is about the removal of Zinc from the oil. As i understand it this is more important to long term wear than initial break-in.


Here is the oil that is probably pretty close (maybe identical) to the oil that BMW fills the 335d with at the factory -
http://www.thedieselstore.com/template/productOutput.php?partNum=VWA452491A&VehNum=1117792

FUCHS is and always has been at the leading edge of lube development. They did much of the original research into synthetic ester-based oils back in Germany in the thirties when everyone else was refining what got pumped out of the ground.

The trend in engine oils (int. lube stds amd oem stds in Europe) is toward cleaner oils, less "additized oils" - - oils that leave fewer deposits in direct injection and turbo charged engines (e.g N54 and M57), and in emission control systems. The elimination of zinc (as well as a reduction in a lot of other additives) from the FUCHS oil is an indication of that. Zinc is the "carrier" for phosphorous which is the element that does the actual anti-wear work. Evidently FUCHS has figured out how to keep the phosphorous in solution without the zinc which along with other additives forms the unwanted deposits.

I'm like a lot of other folks on this forum who have been conditioned (almost since birth it would seem) to believe that frequent oil changes are the holy grail. Times change. Technology changes. The lube engineers have seen data that shows a lube oil can be made that actually improves it lubricating qualities the longer its been in service in the engine. This is a paradigm shift like the move from a geocentric to heliocentric solar system.


----------



## ncbuckeye (Sep 9, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> I personally don't think it matters either way and people should just do them whenever it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside about their decision.


This is what it came down to with me- it made me feel better so I did it. I tried to collect as much "data" pro/con, and decided to err on the side of changing. My opinion may change on this from the analysis...


----------



## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

ncbuckeye said:


> This is what it came down to with me- it made me feel better so I did it. I tried to collect as much "data" pro/con, and decided to err on the side of changing. My opinion may change on this from the analysis...


My concern in going the full distance is not so much the lubrication aspects, but the sludging. I have seen plenty of BMW's with oil changed at the OBC intervals that had horrendous amount of crud built up in the valve train. While I do not have the statistics to back it up, these cars were probably often driven short distances. And with high speed delicate turbo bearings and seals to worry about, another vote for cleaner is better.

I always pull this one out when having this discussion. My '00 328i, 140K miles, BMW synthetic changed at half the OBC indication (approx every 8K miles) it's whole life. Nothing was cleaned for this picture (VC gaskets still stuck to head)


----------



## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Just in case the conversation veers down this path, the d *does not* use break in oil.

From "BMW Operating Fluids" dated October 2010:



> BMW engines do not require special break-in oils.
> All of the multiple grade engine oils can be used, as long as they conform with BMW specifications.


The article also mentions the exception of the M engine, which I think is technically regarded internally as an "M" engine, versus a 'regular' BMW engine.


----------



## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

62Lincoln said:


> Just in case the conversation veers down this path, the d *does not* use break in oil.
> 
> From "BMW Operating Fluids" dated October 2010:
> 
> The article also mentions the exception of the M engine, which I think is technically regarded internally as an "M" engine, versus a 'regular' BMW engine.


Good to know. Do you have a link? Does this come from an owner's manual, BMW web site, TIS?


----------



## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

KeithS: here's another one - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1143203&fpart=1 Its from a '96 328 where the factory recommended OCI at that time was probably around the 10k mark - - tho I can't remember.


----------



## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

It's from a document that I downloaded from somewhere (can't remember). The only other wording on the cover page (other than the title/date I mentioned earlier) is Group 11/Engine/Technical Service. Hope that helps.


----------



## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

m6pwr said:


> KeithS: here's another one - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1143203&fpart=1 Its from a '96 328 where the factory recommended OCI at that time was probably around the 10k mark - - tho I can't remember.


Yes that looks the same as mine. Believe in '96 that may have not been synthetic thus the shorter interval. We need to be asking this question from our European friends as they have had Diesels long enough to accumulate high mileage. The handful in the US with high mileage will not have been driven in a typical/average manner. With the kind of driving of several thousand miles a month, believe the 13K interval will be fine. I know the higher operating temperatures in the more modern BMW gas engines helps keep out moisture and keeps crud to a minimum. But it seems as the Diesels do not run as hot, so...

It's a $50K+ car. Unless I have tangable proof that the OBC intervals casues no harm or sludge in the LONG term, think I'll be sticking with changes in-between. And if you going to do it, of course halfway (6500 miles) makes the most sense.


----------



## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

BMW in Europe schedules oil changes every 30k km under free maintenance, I changed oil in my 530d every 20-22k km (the car was not under free maintenance program)

I think it is difficult to find "tangible" proof whether or not you need to change the oil in shorter intervals than recommended... maybe the engine will work 20% longer... but who cares? at that time other parts will be broken


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

kanar200 said:


> BMW in Europe schedules oil changes every 30k km under free maintenance, I changed oil in my 530d every 20-22k km (the car was not under free maintenance program)
> 
> I think it is difficult to find "tangible" proof whether or not you need to change the oil in shorter intervals than recommended... maybe the engine will work 20% longer... *but who cares? at that time other parts will be broken*


This has always been my outlook with any car I have owned. Admittedly I have not owned BMW before so perhaps they just make motors that will not outlast the rest of their cars. But with Porsche, Mercedes, Ford, Honda, VW, Mitsubishi and who knows what I am forgetting they all had engines that out lasted everything else. It always was something unrelated to the engines that made me give up on continuing to own them. Most of them saw 200k miles with a number upwards of 300k miles. There is only one exception and that was a 1985 Mercedes 380SE that at 280k or so miles a friend talked me to into adding some additive and shortly after that it started to smoke(oil past the rings) around 300k miles I sold it because of the oil consumption.


----------



## 831Doug (Dec 20, 2011)

kanar200 said:


> BMW in Europe schedules oil changes every 30k km under free maintenance, I changed oil in my 530d every 20-22k km (the car was not under free maintenance program)
> 
> I think it is difficult to find "tangible" proof whether or not you need to change the oil in shorter intervals than recommended... maybe the engine will work 20% longer... but who cares? at that time other parts will be broken


I agree. I've always followed factory recommendations for oil changes in previous cars that I've owned. I got 200K miles out of my Mazda 929 and 245K miles out of my Acura 3.2TL changing the oil (non-synthetic) every 5K to 6K miles. Hate to say it, but once the Acura was out of warranty I went to Jiffy Lube and used whatever oil/filter they were offering. Like you said, other parts will probably start failing before an engine failure occurs.

No harm in changing the oil between intervals though.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

831Doug said:


> I agree. I've always followed factory recommendations for oil changes in previous cars that I've owned. I got 200K miles out of my Mazda 929 and 245K miles out of my Acura 3.2TL changing the oil (non-synthetic) every 5K to 6K miles. *Hate to say it, but once the Acura was out of warranty I went to Jiffy Lube and used whatever oil/filter they were offering. Like you said, other parts will probably start failing before an engine failure occurs.*
> 
> No harm in changing the oil between intervals though.


When our old Accord got to around 200k, I think shortly before, I decided to heck with it towards oil changes. I'd often put them off LONG after it should have been done and many times I just tossed in whatever oil I had on my shelf. I distinctly remember one time using one quart of some Amsoil that was the wrong weight for my truck so never was getting used then a couple different weights of dino oil. I sold that car off with around 284k miles on it and had zero issues with the motor but had issues with AC, cat, transmissions, and power steering just to name a few that basically made the car worthless regardless of the engine condition.


----------



## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

m6pwr said:


> Here is the advice of a lubricants engineer on the topic. He now works for Exxon/Mobil in the area of lubes for heavy duty diesels and formerly worked for Castrol and was part of the team back in the 90's that developed Castrol RS 10w60 that later became the Castrol TWS spec'd by BMW for M cars. Incidentally, I don't think any of you that have used shorter oil change intervals have done any "harm" if that 's the right word to use.
> 
> A lubricants engineer's comments on first 335d oil change on factory fill -
> 
> ...


Mr. Hillary strikes again !


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Actually the oil change interval is every 15k, with this adjusted based on how you actually drive the vehicle and the algorithm/sensors they use to tweak that.

My first oil change was at 13k, the second was at 24k and my third is going to be at about 37k. Hopefully I can squeeze out one more before I hit the 50k end of warranty/maintenance period.:thumbup:

DEF intervals have matched up so far with my OCI.

As far as any metal or other material in your drain pan, they would have to pass through your fine filter to make it to the engine moving parts to cause any damage, and that is highly unlikely unless you have a collapsed or compromised filter element, i.e. high differential pressure due to plugging up, and that would be caught by a low pressure alarm which is sensed somewhere at a further point up in the engine.

Me, I'm sticking to the OEM program and see no need to change from this. If anything OEMs are usually conservative on these points, so you could probably go even further.

Unless you are doing frequent Lube Analysis and trending, you really have no idea what is actually happening with the oil.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I am pretty sure in one of these threads someone posted up how the longest factory interval for a 335d is not 15k miles but a couple less.


----------



## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> I am pretty sure in one of these threads someone posted up how the longest factory interval for a 335d is not 15k miles but a couple less.


All three of my oil changes have been ~13,000.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> I am pretty sure in one of these threads someone posted up how the longest factory interval for a 335d is not 15k miles but a couple less.


I stand corrected, 335d is every 13k as per the BMW NA Service Maintenance Checklist.

Gas Engines are every 15k.


----------



## roadrunner320 (May 8, 2011)

Mine, 320d, Thai version, 15K (KM), the first waring was around 13K and told me that I still have 2K to go before change is needed.


----------



## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

roadrunner320 said:


> Mine, 320d, Thai version, 15K (KM), the first waring was around 13K and told me that I still have 2K to go before change is needed.


Do you get free maintenance over there? I'm just curious since 15,000 km = 9,300 miles.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> I stand corrected, 335d is every 13k as per the BMW NA Service Maintenance Checklist.
> 
> Gas Engines are every 15k.


That really should read "up to every 13k" because the computer will change the estimated time for an oil change based upon the driving conditions the car is used for.


----------



## roadrunner320 (May 8, 2011)

@bayoucity
Yes, I do. 5 years or 100.000k whatever comes first.


----------



## aljlin (Feb 11, 2011)

My first oil change came at about 12.5k and I was nearly empty of the DEF, but still had enough that it wasn't warning about low def fluid.


----------

