# Bright Red BMW 3 series have no clear coat?



## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Where is the color code documented on our cars again?


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *Where is the color code documented on our cars again? *


I'm guessing inside the drivers door, possibly near the tire pressure information.


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

hblair said:


> *Let's just bring the debate over here.
> 
> Sticking to my book and my experience rip. Do I really have to bend over backwards to convince a posse of auto-detailers of my knowledge? Come on. The BMW we repaired a month or so ago did not have a clearcoat. I'm pretty sure it was a red. Secretary is pulling the paperwork right now. I'll post a nice juicy scan of my chip page when I get home if that'll convince you guys.
> Code 438 Japanrot, Code 415 Hellrot, Code 314 Bright red are all showing as not being a clearcoat color. I have personally repaired dents on late model bimmers that had only factory paint on them and DID NOT have a clearcoat. The vast majority of bimmers have a clearcoat, but not all, and that is a fact.
> ...


Hehe, Hblair! Now we ALL gotta settle this! I want to know too!


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## Karl (Dec 23, 2001)

Black plaque on left front shock tower, inside engine bay.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Karl said:


> *Black plaque on left front shock tower, inside engine bay. *


I found mine, it's on the fender almost under the airbox. And to screw things up even more it says:

314 HELLROT

As I understand it "Bright Red" is just the American name (marketing) for hellrot.

AND my car ABSOLUTELY HAS clearcoat.


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *As I understand it "Bright Red" is just the American name (marketing) for hellrot.*


this is off-topic, but... if "bright red" is hellrot, what is brillantrot?

kurt


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## hblair (Jul 18, 2002)

'01 Code 314 is a clearcoat color according to my sherwin williams chip book. Strange huh? 
You should hang around our paint shop a few days. Nothing is for sure in this business. Just because a car has paint code XXX under the hood doesn't mean when ya mix the formula it's going to be anywhere in the ball park with the color on the car. Our guys can spend up to 3 hours tinting a color to get them blendable. And some insurance companies balk at charging 1 hours labor to tint color.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

hblair said:


> *'01 Code 314 is a clearcoat color according to my sherwin williams chip book. Strange huh?
> You should hang around our paint shop a few days. Nothing is for sure in this business. Just because a car has paint code XXX under the hood doesn't mean when ya mix the formula it's going to be anywhere in the ball park with the color on the car. Our guys can spend up to 3 hours tinting a color to get them blendable. And some insurance companies balk at charging 1 hours labor to tint color. *


I thought BMW uses a different paint that has some weird German name? Perhaps the Sherwin Williams book's formulation is just an approximation of the BMW paint code, not the same process?

I'm not that familiar with the bodyshop and painting process, but I can assure you that hell rot or bright red (same color) has a clearcoat. I was fixing a paint chip on my wife's hood, and the repaird area (no clear coat) rubbed off RED with the rubbing compound and the rest of the area rubbed off CLEAN, no paint. :dunno:

Last thing I would guess is that the Red BMW you worked on may have been repaired prior, and the bodyshop that repaired it did not properly clearcoat the car?


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## hblair (Jul 18, 2002)

The HACK said:


> *
> 
> I thought BMW uses a different paint that has some weird German name? Perhaps the Sherwin Williams book's formulation is just an approximation of the BMW paint code, not the same process?*


Standox? We used to use standox mixing banks, but the formulas were way off on average, so we dumped it. Sherwin williams book tells us what kind of factory paint job the car has. And then tells us the best formulas for matching said paint. Sherwin Williams as PPG is a very reputable after market paint.



The HACK said:


> *
> 
> I'm not that familiar with the bodyshop and painting process, but I can assure you that hell rot or bright red (same color) has a clearcoat. *


Oh it does!?!? Well lamb sakes! I'll just tell the customer his car has a clearcoat simply because HACK guy on the internet said so! And hack guys car HAS a clearcoat so therefore they ALL DO!



The HACK said:


> *
> 
> Last thing I would guess is that the Red BMW you worked on may have been repaired prior, and the bodyshop that repaired it did not properly clearcoat the car? *


Dude, as if that's not the very first thing I check.

Face it. It's true. The detailing posse is incorrect. I know more about bimmers than the detailing posse.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

hblair said:


> *
> Oh it does!?!? Well lamb sakes! I'll just tell the customer his car has a clearcoat simply because HACK guy on the internet said so! And hack guys car HAS a clearcoat so therefore they ALL DO!
> *


???

Your opinion no longer matters here if you're going to resort to this type of mud slinging.

And I've had enough experiences with bodyshops and paintshops to know there are clueless idiots working at said shops, and there are intelligent and experienced people working there as well. Judging from your response, I think I can safely categorize you into one of the above.

And the fact that you don't even know Hellrot and Bright Red is the SAME FACTORY PAINT CODE says enough for me.


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

Simple, switch painters and get a second opinion. I know all the new ones have clear coat, I would be astounded to hear they didnt


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

hblair said:


> *
> 
> Standox? We used to use standox mixing banks, but the formulas were way off on average, so we dumped it. Sherwin williams book tells us what kind of factory paint job the car has. And then tells us the best formulas for matching said paint. Sherwin Williams as PPG is a very reputable after market paint.
> 
> ...


What an a-hole.

I see a red door and I want it painted black. I wonder if Mick Jagger used clear coat?


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## hblair (Jul 18, 2002)

Yes, I guess you could say I was an A-hole, and yes I believe it was warranted.
I am qualified to give my views on this subject because I've had years of experience, but not only
my experience and my hands have actually repaired dents on late model bimmers and my own eyes
seen my hands sand through single stage factory paint, but our painter of 20 years too.
As well as 3-4 paint helpers in this shop who also have first hand experience on this subject. And not only that,
but here's you a scan of the PPG chip book. 2002 year model. Read it.










Just because you read this or that on a webpage, or you've detailed X amount of cars in your life,
or your 2001 BMW *does* a have clearcoat has no bearing on this.

And whoever it was who said "I can't believe a modern car would not have a clearcoat" get a clue.

Reminds me of a character about 5 years ago who came in the shop with a then late model high-end Mercedes sedan.
Somebody in b'ham recommended he come to us. He walked in the office with his nose in the air.
He said he'd "let us" repair his automobile if we used "mercedes brand" paint. We respectfully told him there was no such thing.
Took him to our mixing room and showed him our mixing banks and scales, etc. Showed him how it was done.
He thought sherwin williams was only house paint. He still insisted that his friend said he needed "mercedes brand" paint.
He knew that "higher end" shops could get it. In the end we basically told him good luck in his quest. Never saw him again.
Guess he thought the fact that he owned a new mercedes also meant he knew our business too. :tsk:


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## hblair (Jul 18, 2002)

in_d_haus said:


> *
> 
> I found mine, it's on the fender almost under the airbox. And to screw things up even more it says:
> 
> ...


Yup, look at the '01 chips. See bright red II? non clearcoat in '01.
Don't ask me why. Well, ask your BMW of north america guy. 
:thumbup:


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *
> 
> I found mine, it's on the fender almost under the airbox. And to screw things up even more it says:
> 
> 314 HELLROT *


As you can see, we already established that our cars have clearcoats. It's the E30's and E34's in bright red that were lacking the B/C code, and you can see that clearly on my father's 325is for example.

It's all a big misunderstanding, BMW hasn't used that bright red in years.

Here's a 415 BMW:


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Mystikal said:


> *
> 
> As you can see, we already established that our cars have clearcoats. It's the E30's and E34's in bright red that were lacking the B/C code, and you can see that clearly on my father's 325is for example.
> 
> ...


Edit: Thanks for clearing that up Mystikal. Maybe it was a "2002" in bright red that our paint expert saw. :lmao:


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Those two paint books even conflict with each other. One says neither is base/clear. The other says 314 is, and 415 isn't.

Also, 314 is Hellrot and 415 is Hellrot II in BMWAG speak.

The info I've found shows that 314 is a E34/36/46 color and 415 is a E36/7 one.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Kaz said:


> *Those two paint books even conflict with each other. One says neither is base/clear. The other says 314 is, and 415 isn't.
> 
> Also, 314 is Hellrot and 415 is Hellrot II in BMWAG speak.
> 
> The info I've found shows that 314 is a E34/36/46 color and 415 is a E36/7 one. *


BMW uses Sikkens paint not standox. They used to use PPG but dropped them a few years ago in favor of Sikkens paint.

Seems our paint "expert" can't even read his own books (or the errors in them) Been sniffing too many paint fumes.

Detailers = 1, Paint dork = 0

And another thing, we aren't just "detailers" we are dyed in the wool BMW fanatics, we've probably forgotten more about BMWs then you've ever know. Go back to your Camero, grab your Budweiser, and turn your radio on to Nascar and CHILL!


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## AKDejaVu (Jul 17, 2002)

You guys are really very funny. Detailers should rule the world... they have all the right answers without having to support a single bit of it.

Why hasn't anyone produced a scan of a BMW paint catalog showing everything with clearcoat?

I guess its just sufficient for you guys to stand around and participate in a big ol self reaffirmation.

"I bought a BMW and I am a better person because of it. Those that don't have BMWs couldn't possibly understand how great it is to be me."

AKDejaVu


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

Yeah you have to admit that, right or wrong, the BMW/porcupine reputation is in full effect right now. It's the thing I hate most associated with BMW ownership.

kurt


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

AKDejaVu said:


> *
> Why hasn't anyone produced a scan of a BMW paint catalog showing everything with clearcoat?
> 
> AKDejaVu *


Awaiting a BMWNA reply as I sent them an email yesterday regarding this, be patient. 



AKDejaVu said:


> *You guys are really very funny. Detailers should rule the world... they have all the right answers without having to support a single bit of it.
> AKDejaVu *


Experience of finish maintenence. One can easily identify a clear coat on a finish, even you could. in-d-haus has a 2001 Red BMW, I can tell you it does have a clear coat. Its very easy to indentify. If that isn't evidence, I don't know what your seeking, maybe a state approved notary public signature?



AKDejaVu said:


> *
> I guess its just sufficient for you guys to stand around and participate in a big ol self reaffirmation. AKDejaVu *


Hblair had ONE Red BMW that had no clear coat, everyone on this board has a clear coat. So, self reaffirmation or not...numbers do not lie.



AKDejaVu said:


> *
> 
> "I bought a BMW and I am a better person because of it. Those that don't have BMWs couldn't possibly understand how great it is to be me."
> AKDejaVu *


Oh Please, paint every BMW owner (yourself is included now) with a wide brush, how infantile is that?


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

I got a question for those of you who think the NEW year2002 bimmers in bright red do not have clear coat. Have you even seen one? I have seen the red up close, and even driven a red z3 many times. That thing obviously has clear coat. I believe BMW makes a car care kit,which they emphasized was clear coat safe.


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

AKDejaVu said:



> *You guys are really very funny. Detailers should rule the world... they have all the right answers without having to support a single bit of it.
> 
> Why hasn't anyone produced a scan of a BMW paint catalog showing everything with clearcoat?
> 
> ...


Ok got some confirmation although I doubt youd see it that way.
My bro has owned 4 BMW, and is a certified auto body mechanic, ISA certified or some ISwhatever. He says all e46 have clear coat, no question. He said old ass bimmers have a red w/o clear coat, as most cars do. But all the new ones have it.

Just look at haus' car... are you blind? some people would argue if you said the sky was blue, this dude is one of those guys.


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

Dred, I don't think its a question of just E46 bodies, Hblair specified in another thread not related to this BBS, that it was not a 3-series, but he did confirm it was a 2000 model, which model we don't know, we also don't know if that car may have been in an accident, and repainted without clear coat as well. What we do know, and anyone can do this at their nearest BMW outlet, is that all BMW's, regardless of color, have a clear coat on them. I guess that evidence is not enough though...so, we're awaiting for an official BMWNA reply....


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

Ripsnort said:


> *Dred, I don't think its a question of just E46 bodies, Hblair specified in another thread not related to this BBS, that it was not a 3-series, but he did confirm it was a 2000 model, which model we don't know, we also don't know if that car may have been in an accident, and repainted without clear coat as well. What we do know, and anyone can do this at their nearest BMW outlet, is that all BMW's, regardless of color, have a clear coat on them. I guess that evidence is not enough though...so, we're awaiting for an official BMWNA reply.... *


older, has 
ok gotcha, my bro went to work, I will ask him about all BMW later. I cannot see BMW making a car without clear coat in 2000.

Maybe the car was a 2002 and he was all confused between the name and the year?

 :banghead:


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## Alan(iX) (Apr 29, 2002)

Here is the service bulletin when clear coating was applied to all BMWs.
Alan Alfano
88 325iX


Service Bulletin: 99 01 94 (3957)
Jan 1994

Subject: Clear Coating of Non-Metallic Paints

Models: All

Situation: As of 9/93 production all colors (solid colors and metallic) have been clear coated. This additional process on solid colors improves appearance and durability.

When calculating labor for paint processes on vehicles produced after 8/93, the times for metallic colors should be used for all colors.

Warranty Status: Inforamtion only.


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

Alan(iX) said:


> *Here is the service bulletin when clear coating was applied to all BMWs.
> Alan Alfano
> 88 325iX
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing (no pun intended) it up. maybe this is now a closed issue? :thumbup: :thumbup:

Detailers DO RULE THE WORLD!!!


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

Alan(iX) said:


> *Here is the service bulletin when clear coating was applied to all BMWs.
> Alan Alfano
> 88 325iX
> 
> ...


Looks like text to me (and information spelled incorrectly I might add), got a link, or a SB link? Need to validate this.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Ripsnort said:


> *
> 
> Looks like text to me (and information spelled incorrectly I might add), got a link, or a SB link? Need to validate this. *


I assume it's from the TIS. Should be able to be confirmed by anyone else that has one.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

maybe the car was cut polished heavily? will that strip away the clear coat?


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

hblair, honestly, I don't know why you are bothering. You try to prove the lack of clear coat to the board with actual information and you get this response - and you keep coming back for more. It's tough to make any progress against the "b/c we are BMW fanatics and we said so" argument.

Gotta say, I am going to go with the best information available - which right now is the scaned pages of a body shop aid. The 2001 and 2002 body shop paint guides are certainly more meaningful to me than a typed in bulletin from the early 90s. For those of you trying to pick his posts apart, in da hause's car is listed in his 2001 book as having clear coat. Apparently that color might not have a clear coat in 2002. Who knows? Frankly, who cares? Seems like this question matters only to people who own the cars with the suspect colors. It will be interesting to see what BMWNA says about the issue. I wonder if my dealer has any bright reds in stock . . .


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## Alan(iX) (Apr 29, 2002)

> I assume it's from the TIS. Should be able to be confirmed by anyone else that has one.

That is correct.

Other than a misspelling (or two).
It is uneditted from TIS.
Bulletin number is shown and can be found/verified on the TIS.

Alan Alfano
88 325iX


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## hblair (Jul 18, 2002)

All BMW's clearcoated since '93? I don't care if you get a letter of confirmation from the CEO of BMW saying that, it's just not true. 

Guys (and girls), I don't have a dog in this hunt. I don't care either way. But there have been late model bimmers through this shop with factory single stage paint. The last one was a '98 318 ( I thought I remembered it being a '00) It's VIN# was WBACG8322WKC84510. Run the VIN if you wanna. I don't have anything to prove here. I just replied to a topic on a flight simm forum about paint. Rip thought I was wrong. I followed a link he gave to this board, did a search on clearcoat and found this thread. Otherwise guys like "in da house" or whatever could still be having an unopposed "bimmer" orgy. I myself have nothing against BMW's. They are fine cars, as are some other makes. But when somebody states their credentials on a subject as being a "fanatic", well, sorry, but that just means you're biased. You look at a subject like this wanting it to be a certain way, and that's all you want to see happen. I, on the other hand don't care either way.

And whoever the cheesehead was who told me to get back to my budweiser and camaro, what exactly do you mean by that? I assume it's a lil man slight at me because I live in alabama? What do you do for a living? What income bracket are you in? Sorry guys, but somebody who has a 3-series bimmer and thinks he's in some kind of class above me needs to re-evaluate things. If you were all that, you'd be in the high end bimmer or a real sports car.

And for your information, I don't drink beer and I was working on a RUF 911.


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## hblair (Jul 18, 2002)

BTW, Guess what paint system the 911 has on it?
Yep. :thumbup:


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