# 2010 335d $11,021 Repair at 65k miles



## rmeltz (Mar 19, 2010)

From my earlier posts these past 6 months, you will see that my car was in perfect running condition (so I thought) until 55,000 miles. I've offered the details in an earlier post. Last Thursday, the SES light came on and I noticed the engine vibrate at red lights. It was code P02CE (cylinder 2 fuel injector offset learning at minimum limit). I brought it to the dealer the next morning. I learned today that I have excessive carbon build-up on the intake valves and cylinder heads. Dealer already contacted BMW for 'direction'. They want to:

1.) Replace all injectors, seals, valves at $5,400 which BMW will pay (Calif. extended emissions warranty)

2.) Remove engine head and send out the remaining components to have the carbon removed for $5,621 which would be "my cost"

There are a few similar posts to mine concerning carbon buildup on these 335d's. Important notes:

a.) I've had a string of other issues these past 6 months which you can read in my earlier posts;
b.) The EGR recall from last year: I had mine replaced in May 2012 when I already had 42,415 miles on the car. 

I asked my service advisor to go back to BMW and have them consider my service history. I'll turn this car over to the California Air Resources board for tear-down before I pay for such extensive (and expensive) repairs for what I earnestly believe is a cause that BMW created.


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

rmeltz said:


> From my earlier posts these past 6 months, you will see that my car was in perfect running condition (so I thought) until 55,000 miles. I've offered the details in an earlier post. Last Thursday, the SES light came on and I noticed the engine vibrate at red lights. It was code P02CE (cylinder 2 fuel injector offset learning at minimum limit). I brought it to the dealer the next morning. I learned today that I have excessive carbon build-up on the intake valves and cylinder heads. Dealer already contacted BMW for 'direction'. They want to:
> 
> 1.) Replace all injectors, seals, valves at $5,400 which BMW will pay (Calif. extended emissions warranty)
> 
> ...


My car had numerous time the generic OBD code P02CE. Injector #2 has been replaced a total of 4 times. Last time (few months ago), they replaced all injectors to "index" them. Since then my car has been running better and I did not get the hesitation at idle.

Last week, I had another SES light. This time it was the differential pressure sensor on the DPF. Talking to the dealer service advisor and the service department general manager, they admitted that the 335d is problematic. I am not the only one having numerous issues with the 335d at the dealership.

I am now at 48K miles. I usually not the type that buy an extended warranty. However, for this car, I bought a 100K miles 7 years powertrain warranty. BMW is using the North American market as a guinea pig to test the emission system!

If it was me and I did not have an extended warranty, I will say replace all injectors and UPDATE THE DDE SOFTWARE (had this done prior all injectors replacement). I do not want to spend a dime! In California, you are covered for emission until 80K miles. I do not pay to have the head cleaned. What could happen? Maybe your injectors will show the fault again. Who care, you go to BMW and say: BWM replace all injectors again.


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## txagbmw (Apr 15, 2013)

If got hit with a repair estimate like that. The car is gone, traded.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

What do you expect CARB to say?


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Nothing at ALL!! They imposed the BS emissions we have now so why would they care about one car if so.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

with CARBs opinions about diesel they would likely give BMW a high five


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

......and further increase the difficulties in owning a diesel here with even more stringent and unsupportable regulations.:tsk:


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## rdorman (Sep 4, 2008)

It is my understanding that the EGR problem agrevated the carbon problem. 

Either way, the head does NOT need to be removed to remove the carbon, only the intake manifold. BMW has a machine used just for this type of carbon removal (your service advisor should know this!). A few hours or so of labor and a handfull of gaskets are all that is required. Have that done along with the work they are going to pay for. Contact BMWNA if need be.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

rdorman said:


> It is my understanding that the EGR problem agrevated the carbon problem.
> 
> Either way, the head does NOT need to be removed to remove the carbon, only the intake manifold. BMW has a machine used just for this type of carbon removal (your service advisor should know this!). A few hours or so of labor and a handfull of gaskets are all that is required. Have that done along with the work they are going to pay for. Contact BMWNA if need be.


Walnut blast won't work on the M57. The passages through the head are too long and narrow.

Many agree about the EGR recall, but the question is whether it simply pushed the service to post warranty.


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## rdorman (Sep 4, 2008)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Walnut blast won't work on the M57. The passages through the head are too long and narrow.
> 
> Many agree about the EGR recall, but the question is whether it simply pushed the service to post warranty.


That stinks!


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Cleaning of intake more along the lines of removal and pressure washing. Intake ports of head (done while still mated to engine) more along the lines of tooth brushes and carb cleaner. The stuff is more paste like (not charcoal like). Only pain is rotating engine to where both intake valves are closed prior to cleaning. Hoooper did point out there was an extra path for each cylinder for the swirl flaps. He said it was hard to access so he couldn't clean it. We have the same dilemma as N54 but different technique to clean and a whole bunch of extra worries on the injector/DDE/DPF fronts. 

Wow, we are having to be the trail blaizers for future NA BMW diesel owners. These problems sound like they take 45 to65 kmiles to come to fruition on average and it may take us a couple more years to get a managible plan to remedy them (hopefully). The solution can't be just buy the 7 yr/100 kmile warranty. I probably won't hit 60kmiles until 7 years.


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## dakarm (Apr 1, 2002)

Ouch. good luck.


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

Yeah, my X5 will be gone before the warranty ends. I'm not dealing with crap like this.

$5k for a carbon clean? WTF


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

rmeltz said:


> From my earlier posts these past 6 months, you will see that my car was in perfect running condition (so I thought) until 55,000 miles. I've offered the details in an earlier post. Last Thursday, the SES light came on and I noticed the engine vibrate at red lights. It was code P02CE (cylinder 2 fuel injector offset learning at minimum limit). I brought it to the dealer the next morning. I learned today that I have excessive carbon build-up on the intake valves and cylinder heads. Dealer already contacted BMW for 'direction'. They want to:
> 
> 1.) Replace all injectors, seals, valves at $5,400 which BMW will pay (Calif. extended emissions warranty)
> 
> ...


I think that if you've driven and maintained the car exactly as prescribed, you shouldn't have to pay for any of that crap.

I hate it when manufacturers try to get owners to pay for half of what is essentially their mistakes. You paid more for it (being a diesel) in the first place, now they want you to keep paying.

BMW should own up and take care of you.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

EdCT said:


> I think that if you've driven and maintained the car exactly as prescribed, you shouldn't have to pay for any of that crap.
> 
> I hate it when manufacturers try to get owners to pay for half of what is essentially their mistakes. You paid more for it (being a diesel) in the first place, now they want you to keep paying.
> 
> BMW should own up and take care of you.


The only issue u have proving it's a mistake. It's not like every diesel is having this issue under 50k miles. The numbers are small.


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## quasimodem (Nov 9, 2011)

At that kind of cost, why not replace the engine and rebuild the old one to drop in when the new engine gets carbon buildup?

Has anybody priced a new engine? And if it is done in an '09 with the M57, would the replacement be an N57?


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

quasimodem said:


> At that kind of cost, why not replace the engine and rebuild the old one to drop in when the new engine gets carbon buildup?
> 
> Has anybody priced a new engine? And if it is done in an '09 with the M57, would the replacement be an N57?


You would get the same engine M57. Besides the engineering difficulties it's illegal for them to do so.


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## rancur (Nov 5, 2013)

so basically I should avoid the 335d?


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

quasimodem said:


> At that kind of cost, why not replace the engine and rebuild the old one to drop in when the new engine gets carbon buildup?
> 
> Has anybody priced a new engine? And if it is done in an '09 with the M57, would the replacement be an N57?


you would only need to replace the head, intake, and valve cover. For the that you would be looking at about $5k in parts cost, then its all labor cost from there. You can avoid the $3500 head+core price if you get the head dipped instead of just replacing it. The cost of replacing the entire engine is $12k+ and you still need $1k worth of intake manifold and valve cover.



rancur said:


> so basically I should avoid the 335d?


if you are the kind of person who typically ends up being that unlucky 1 in 1000, then yeah probably. If you are the kind of person who doesnt usually find themselves in that group you will likely be ok. Odds are in favor of not having this issue, but there of course is a chance that you will


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

Hoooper said:


> you would only need to replace the head and intake. For the head and intake manifold you would be looking at under $5k in parts cost, then its all labor cost from there. You can avoid the $3500 head+core price if you get the head dipped instead of just replacing it
> 
> if you are the kind of person who typically ends up being that unlucky 1 in 1000, then yeah probably. If you are the kind of person who doesnt usually find themselves in that group you will likely be ok. Odds are in favor of not having this issue, but there of course is a chance that you will


There is no such thing with modern cars.

As much as we wrap up a lot of emotion in our cars, they are machines built by machines.

Carbon build up is not like being struck by lightning.

Only time will tell as the "fleet" of US 335d cars start clicking past 40, 50, 60, 70,000 miles.


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## mrblahh (Oct 9, 2006)

they said these things about DI engine valve deposits too, ie N54
turns out 100 % are affected and will need walnut blast cleaning


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

DaveN007 said:


> There is no such thing with modern cars.
> 
> As much as we wrap up a lot of emotion in our cars, they are machines built by machines.
> 
> ...





mrblahh said:


> they said these things about DI engine valve deposits too, ie N54
> turns out 100 % are affected and will need walnut blast cleaning


no doubt 100% of us will have buildup, but its not 100% that youre going to end up with a carbon engine cake, I would wager a guess that there will be a number of US M57s that never experience an issue. Im at almost 70k now and no issues, im also one of only a handful who have actually had the manifold off and can confirm the status of my buildup. There are some similarities and a lot of differences between direct injection valve deposits and our carbon buildup.


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## cz335d (Dec 6, 2009)

*CA lemon law*

rmeltz,

i had a 2010 335d. CA resident. Same problem with my car. Same mileage. Lemoned the car. BMW repurchased. Look up the CA Lemon Law. Vehicle was in the shop over 60+ days since December 2009 purchase. Good Luck!


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

rmeltz said:


> From my earlier posts these past 6 months, you will see that my car was in perfect running condition (so I thought) until 55,000 miles. I've offered the details in an earlier post. Last Thursday, the SES light came on and I noticed the engine vibrate at red lights. It was code P02CE (cylinder 2 fuel injector offset learning at minimum limit). I brought it to the dealer the next morning. I learned today that I have excessive carbon build-up on the intake valves and cylinder heads. Dealer already contacted BMW for 'direction'. They want to:
> 
> 1.) Replace all injectors, seals, valves at $5,400 which BMW will pay (Calif. extended emissions warranty)
> 
> ...


Remember BMW is in a dance with CARB (despite morons here thinging this is CARBs fault or that CARB designed this POS system) in which BMW doesnt want CARB to demand that BMW expand the parts covered under the CA warranty.

My tact would be to elevate issues at BMW so that they are acutely aware that you will be vocal woth CARB regarding this and other failures.

GL

A


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Hoooper said:


> you would only need to replace the head, intake, and valve cover. For the that you would be looking at about $5k in parts cost, then its all labor cost from there. *You can avoid the $3500 head+core price if you get the head dipped instead of just replacing it.* The cost of replacing the entire engine is $12k+ and you still need $1k worth of intake manifold and valve cover.


I was wondering about either cold-tanking the parts or alternatively, soaking overnight in 100% biodiesel. Biodiesel is quite the solvent and would probably make short work of the carbon build-up.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

ard said:


> Remember BMW is in a dance with CARB (despite morons here thinging this is CARBs fault or that CARB designed this POS system) in which BMW doesnt want CARB to demand that BMW expand the parts covered under the CA warranty.
> 
> My tact would be to elevate issues at BMW so that they are acutely aware that you will be vocal woth CARB regarding this and other failures.
> 
> ...


Why fiddle-fart around with BMW NA? Let CARB put the screws to BMW NA. CARB has waaaaay more leverage than a consumer ever will. If the carbon build-up is causing the car to fail an emissions test, it is per se subject to the emissions warranty.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

anE934fun said:


> Why fiddle-fart around with BMW NA? Let CARB put the screws to BMW NA. CARB has waaaaay more leverage than a consumer ever will. If the carbon build-up is causing the car to fail an emissions test, it is per se subject to the emissions warranty.


Uh, you dont know what you are talking about.

1. Many people think "there is an 70k mile emissions warranty, if your car doesnt pass then it is covered"...wrong.

2. The 'emissions warranty', at least the 'must perform' is 3years/50k. He is outside that period. There is an extended warranty for SPECIFIC parts, which is the CA 7/70 warranty... is it your position that the OPs parts are, in fact, covered by BMWs list of parts? Do tell.

3. The issue one has is "is my failed part on that list?" and what I was discussing was "can we get BMW to be required to list those parts?"

Info:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/inusecom/inusecom.htm

My recollection is that the CARB can demand BMW add parts to the list if they cost over a certain amount and they exceed 4% failure rate.



> Setting aside objections from the motor vehicle aftermarket and the vehicle manufacturers, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) approved new regulations on March 22 that will mandate an extended warranty for emissions-related components with high failure rates. The changes would amend Emissions Warranty Information Reporting regulations that currently require a car company to undertake a recall of a vehicle component if emissions warranty reports, that are required to be filed with CARB by the car companies, indicate that a specific component has more than a 4 percent failure rate.


So again, unless the part is covered, going to CARB will not result in CARB calling the dealer and saying "pay for his car"...they will eventually, maybe, add the part to the list. In a year. I'd rather fiddle-fart with BMW and use the threat of CARB to get my car fixed in a few weeks then go to CARB and wait for that process to resolve.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

ard said:


> Uh, you dont know what you are talking about.
> 
> snip...
> 
> So again, unless the part is covered, going to CARB will not result in CARB calling the dealer and saying "pay for his car"...they will eventually, maybe, add the part to the list. In a year. I'd rather fiddle-fart with BMW and use the threat of CARB to get my car fixed in a few weeks then go to CARB and wait for that process to resolve.


Have you been successful using the threat of going to CARB to get BMW NA to reverse a repair denial decision? Please post your experience(s).


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## chetah45 (Dec 12, 2011)

My experience with CARB mandated smog check on passenger car diesels:
Shop tech takes a visual check for missing emission parts and since the 335d is tightly packaged, most of the stuff he was looking for he could not find and since they are not allowed to remove or disassemble anything on the car, it passed. No computer hookup since the car is a CANBUS and not OBDII so he could not check for codes. Last was a snap idle test and do you really believe that there's gonna be any visible smoke??? Waste of time, money and a total joke the process is.
As an individual, you ain't going to have any luck with CARB on an engine design issue. It will take a class action suit to get their attention and there is not enough of these cars in this state to make a difference.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

chetah45 said:


> My experience with CARB mandated smog check on passenger car diesels:
> Shop tech takes a visual check for missing emission parts and since the 335d is tightly packaged, most of the stuff he was looking for he could not find and since they are not allowed to remove or disassemble anything on the car, it passed. No computer hookup since the car is a CANBUS and not OBDII so he could not check for codes. Last was a snap idle test and do you really believe that there's gonna be any visible smoke??? Waste of time, money and a total joke the process is.
> As an individual, you ain't going to have any luck with CARB on an engine design issue. It will take a class action suit to get their attention and there is not enough of these cars in this state to make a difference.


You are describing an experience you had with a SMOG test administered by an independent technician. If the OPs car did not pass a SMOG test after BMW NA's agent (the dealer) replaced parts, there would potentially be recourse to CARB. The problems with OPs engine didn't magically occur immediately before the car was taken to the dealer. They built up over time and most probably started while the car was under factory warranty.


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## rancur (Nov 5, 2013)

chetah45 said:


> My experience with CARB mandated smog check on passenger car diesels:
> Shop tech takes a visual check for missing emission parts and since the 335d is tightly packaged, most of the stuff he was looking for he could not find and since they are not allowed to remove or disassemble anything on the car, it passed. No computer hookup since the car is a CANBUS and not OBDII so he could not check for codes. Last was a snap idle test and do you really believe that there's gonna be any visible smoke??? Waste of time, money and a total joke the process is.
> As an individual, you ain't going to have any luck with CARB on an engine design issue. It will take a class action suit to get their attention and there is not enough of these cars in this state to make a difference.


weird i though CAN is part of the OBD2 connector spec


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## chetah45 (Dec 12, 2011)

My point is that it's going to be difficult to fail a smog test on these cars. There is no sniffer test, no dyno run, and no computer check. Hell, techs can't even see if all the required equipment is on the car. If an owner shows up with a check engine light on, they are not even going to bother looking at the car. Class action is the only way to get BMW NA's attention. CARB ain't going to do squat to remedy the issue.


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## rancur (Nov 5, 2013)

chetah45 said:


> My point is that it's going to be difficult to fail a smog test on these cars. There is no sniffer test, no dyno run, and no computer check. Hell, techs can't even see if all the required equipment is on the car. If an owner shows up with a check engine light on, they are not even going to bother looking at the car. Class action is the only way to get BMW NA's attention. CARB ain't going to do squat to remedy the issue.


yeah I being a pedant sorry

so there no obd2 connector?
no connector on driver side near hood release?

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## chetah45 (Dec 12, 2011)

Rancur: just relaying my experience and the techs excuse for not plugging the car into their machine. I have used this place for the last 4 years and they are good about explaining the process and letting you look over their shoulder as they do the check. They are a STAR rated station and smog test only station.


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## chetah45 (Dec 12, 2011)

Rancur: I just checked and there is a port behind a cover and it looks like obd but that was his excuse for not plugging the car in. It was fine with me at the time. For diesels, all they are looking for is missing equipment and visible smoke...no thanks to owners of modified Cummins, Powestrokes, and Duramaxes.


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## rancur (Nov 5, 2013)

chetah45 said:


> Rancur: I just checked and there is a port behind a cover and it looks like obd but that was his excuse for not plugging the car in. It was fine with me at the time. For diesels, all they are looking for is missing equipment and visible smoke...no thanks to owners of modified Cummins, Powestrokes, and Duramaxes.


interesting

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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

CARB cares about California's "Air Resources".

A 335d that won't run is a car that can't pollute.

If keeping pollutants out of the air kills the car, so be it. That is what you get for not taking public transportation to a government job every day, you damned "One Percenter". LOL.

As long as BMW keeps carbon inside the engine, why would CARB care?

I think best strategy is to start complaining about carbon build up while you are well within factory warranty.

"It just doesn't feel like it performs like it did when I first got it."

"It seem like it is struggling for air or fuel. I think it is starting to clog up with carbon buildup."

"Please confirm that my intake system and injectors don't need cleaning. I don't want the car to die right after the warranty runs out when I am telling you that I think there is a problem starting right now."

"If you tell me that I have a carbon build up issue shortly after my warranty expires, I am not going to be happy."

Get all of this entered into the service history.

"Customer states that engine is experiencing carbon build."


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## chetah45 (Dec 12, 2011)

DaveN007:
I have to agree with you there about a pre-emptive complaint. I am 2 years into my ownership and I am at 24k and change and will be paying close attention to any changes. It is not my daily driver (my SO's DD) and when I get behind the wheel, I don't puzzyfoot around with it(drives her crazy). I am also hoping that since mine is one of the last ones built, EGR carbon fouling won't be an issue????


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## rancur (Nov 5, 2013)

Just don't cry wolf! How much for inspection without intake removal?

Best do that first then take it in when know for sure

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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

DaveN007 said:


> CARB cares about California's "Air Resources".
> 
> A 335d that won't run is a car that can't pollute.
> 
> ...


While I agree with your tactic, the premise that somehow CARB only cares about air and not the inside of motors seems misguided, unless you mean this as a joke.

I deal with highly regulated industry issues daily, and have done this for many years. You live and die by the regs. Once a documented issue comes up, and there are regs on the books requiring action, there is no choice- regulators must act, even if they dont want to.

I posted an interesting (I thought) article that describes a regulatory process by which a manufacturer can be required to recall cars and/or offer extended warranties to cars/parts that are on the market. This is the long term solution. Short term is BMW changing their mind. I dont care, as I dont have this issue. If I did, I'd have a process underway which would not be calling people over the phone nor chit chat with SAs.....

I can tell you that BMW has a massive misinformation effort to blame carbon build up on fuel. Period. When they do this they avoid the 'defect' label. What we all suspect is that the design allows this fouling with fuels that are sold in North America. Their problem- they decided to sell cars here, they knew what kind of fuel we have, they have a legal obligation to make the product work in the market in which it is offered for sale.

Complaints to CARB will give them the ammo (or will create the pressure on them) to act. But as we all should know, the wheels of regulatory agencies grind very slowly.


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

ard said:


> While I agree with your tactic, the premise that somehow CARB only cares about air and not the inside of motors seems misguided, unless you mean this as a joke.


CARB cares about emissions. I am not joking. You must be thinking of some other government agency. I could be wrong here, of course. The key would be proving that the problem affects emissions... Not longevity. CARB doesn't care about your radiator rusting through or your ball joints going bad.


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