# Really used BMW vs. Brand new cars.



## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

Hello everyone!

I'm sure similar questions have been asked a million times before, but it would be great if I could get some advice on my problem as well:

Should I get a used (~$15k) BMW 3 series vs. (~$21k) new non-BMW car? 

Here's some background to why I'm considering the BMW: 

I am fresh out of grad school and have picked up a decent enough paying job with which I should easily be able to afford something around 20-25k. Being an engineer, I was okay with doing simple DIY kind of jobs with my old beaten up GM car - I replaced valve covers, throttle bodies, body repairs, etc. I also feel like I take good care of my cars and drive very responsibly. I would like to own a polished and well powered car to drive and that is why I'm considering a BMW. The other non-BMW cars feel a bit like plastic toys in front of a BMW. A $15k BMW would correspond to something made between 2005-2008 I think.

Here's why I'm confused:

Internet searches tell me that maintenance cost can be off the roof. But for that I am keeping a $5k difference in initial cost to begin with. Will that take care of it? The new non-BMW I would consider would be the dreary old Toyotas or Hondas with really low running costs. I like to keep things till they completely die and a new car will stick around for a decade or so. I also would like to get to work everyday (even weekends) and since I am living alone, there will be only one car in the "household". 

I need some advice from you guys as I don't know many people with BMWs and I have never owned anything nice. Now is a good chance since I am young and have fewer responsibilities. An advice from a "BMW adult" is what I'm looking for.

Thanks!


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## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

When you consider the tax, and possible insurance advantages along with the +- $6k difference.....I'd go for the used BMW, non turbo. Barring any engine or trans failure, it would be highly unlikely you would ever spend that much on repairs over the remaining life of the BMW, although you will spend a few thousand. The only advantage of the new vehicle, you're much less likely to break down and be without a car for periods of time. The dealership you buy the new car from will likely provide loaners, or shuttle service in the event you need it, unless your buying a CPO BMW you might not have so much luck.

For what its worth, I drove a 180,000 mile 540i for 2 years, on a 100 mile per day round trip. Spent alot keeping it up, but it NEVER left me stranded. I fixed lots of clunks, and leaks, and check engine lights....but it started and ran every time I needed it to. Goes without saying to get a PPI though.


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## Tom K. (May 10, 2008)

Here are the used 3 series (mostly E46) currently listed on BMWUSA.com with an asking price of $15k or less. As you can see, many have fairly high mileage, but hopefully it will help in your comparison with a new(er) less expensive marque.

Happy hunting.

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/cpo/modelsearch.aspx

Tom


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## haskindm (Jun 1, 2011)

Any used car can be a maintenance/repair nightmare. I bought a brand new engine for a pickup truck I had a few years ago for $1300. Those days are gone. A major repair on anything is expensive. All these new things that make cars so nice to own are EXPENSIVE! Fuel injection is more expensive than a carburetor. New transmissions are ridiculously expensive. Variable valve timing, turbochargers, etc. Parts for a BMW are a little more expensive than some others, but not drastically so. I heard one time that a new engine for a Lexus can cost $20K! If you want a cheap car to own and maintain, you will need to find one with none of the "nice things" that people want. Crank windows are cheaper and more reliable than power windows for example. You decide how much risk you want to take. That said, a used BMW in good condition, with a good service history, and checked out by a competent mechanic should not be much more risk than any other brand. Don't buy the hype about the invincibility of Hondas and Toyotas. They have their own problems and can be expensive to repair. Maintenance costs should be about equal. Oil costs the same whether you put it in a Honda or a Bentley! The main difference is that with a new car you will have a warranty, so you know that you will have no major repairs during the warranty period, but you have already figured out that you pay for that one way or the other. The last few cars that I have had - 2 Chevrolets, a MINI Cooper, and a BMW 335i have had little to no repairs done under warranty. So, if you know what you are getting into, and you will not "hit the roof" the first time your car needs repair, go for the used BMW. You will be glad every time you drive it!


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## snowboardjoe (Mar 20, 2012)

bmw_or_else said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I'm sure similar questions have been asked a million times before, but it would be great if I could get some advice on my problem as well:
> 
> ...


I have a 2003 325xi (bought new) with 120K on it. A few months ago I finally decided to get a new BMW X3 (will be here in a few weeks). Aside from needing additional cargo capacity and ground clearance, my main reason was to sell the old/current car is that maintenance is getting more frequent and costing more. Since I moved to Seattle, I don't have a garage to do major work anymore either. I've taken great care of this car with good indy mechanics along with quite a bit of preventative maintenance. With that said, my car has never left me stranded.

If you do by a used BMW, find an owner who has records of all maintenance. Arming yourself with that history will help you make a good decision. When I sell mine here in a few weeks, I'll have a notebook to hand over to the new owner. Know what preventative maintenance is coming up for that used car and budget for it. Good, used BMW's can be hard to come by, so be patient in your search.

Good luck!


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## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for the input guys! 

I was planning on looking for the simplest BMW with a manual transmission and no turbos. I don't really care that much about being the fastest car on the road or the one with most gadgets, but I do want to own something that is well built, handles well and does not look childish. I should be able to keep up with a few occasional visits to a mechanic, but I would stay away from this if it was getting stranded too often. 

Looking at a lot of posts on this forum, it seems like BMWs can typically last quite some time if kept with proper care. It is certainly a bit of a relief to know that the typical maintenance costs are not too much more than most cars. Just reading online had given me an impression that I could be looking at something 10x usual - which was my major concern. 

Tom, on the link you provided, I was able to find a few that have been driven between 70-90k miles in my area - which does not sound bad at all. I will get as thorough of a check as possible before the purchase. if I can push this car for 6-7 years, then I'll consider it well worth the money. 

It will be a few months of searching before I actually do get a car. I hope I find one!


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## QDog (Apr 23, 2012)

You probably want to take recommendations with a grain of salt, after all, everyone here has already decided BMW is the right car to buy or they wouldn't hang out here 

I just purchased an 09 128i, which I'm hoping will run for a good long time (it only has 7k miles, so odds seem fair). Interest rates are ridiculously low right now, I have 2.64% from my credit union. 

If you read up a lot, yes the BMW "might" cost a lot. One of my friends has an 04 or 05 325i, it needs a new headlight (possibly more), at least $700. They had an oil leak, $3k later they are getting close to certain it's fixed (this may reflect on the mechanic, I can only relate what they tell me). 

Another guy I know likes his Corvettes/Camaros, and thinks nothing of $1000-$1500 repairs, but thinks BMWs are unreliable. 'Cheap to own' is in the eye of the beholder.

I just got rid of a civic hybrid for the BMW, I had no worries about taking the hybrid to the local jiffy lube for an oil change on coupon, the BMW not so much. I'll be heading to the independent BMW mechanic or go back to doing it myself.

Looking over the consumerreports reliability, the 328 non-turbo gets noticeably better reliability scores starting in 2008. Overall the BMW brand is not as high as the Japanese brands on reliability, but the reliability of all car manufacturers has increased over the last decade (except perhaps vw). Doing a cpo search returns a number of bmw 328i below 25k with the cpo warranty, some under original warranty, so I think you have plenty of options. 

However, if you are just commuting, maybe the small japanese car works and you can save up for the M3 with European Delivery


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## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

> You probably want to take recommendations with a grain of salt, after all, everyone here has already decided BMW is the right car to buy or they wouldn't hang out here


That's true indeed, but the comments here have kept my BMW aspirations alive and not strike them out completely 

I'll test out a few BMWs and compare them to new cars and see what I actually like and the mechanics' opinions. I haven't looked up any financing options yet, as I was thinking of just buying with cash and avoiding all the interest payments. But if the interest rates are that low, then I might be more willing to push things a bit more.


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## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

On a related note:

Where do most BMWs go for repairs? Do you always go to the BMW dealer or are there more options? With a GM car, I could take it to pretty much anyone and get things fixed. Things like oil leaks were in fact within my reach so I just fixed those myself... I would be a bit more reluctant in tearing apart a BMW though.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

bmw_or_else said:


> Thanks for the input guys!
> 
> I was planning on looking for the simplest BMW with a manual transmission and no turbos. I don't really care that much about being the fastest car on the road or the one with most gadgets, but I do want to own something that is well built, handles well and does not look childish. I should be able to keep up with a few occasional visits to a mechanic, but I would stay away from this if it was getting stranded too often.
> 
> ...


Check out the E46 330i ZHP/Performance package model. Spend some time in the E46 forum. Look for cars in the classifieds here and www.ZHPMafia.com and E46Fanatics.com.


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

Expect to pay around $1500 a year average on repair and maintenance thats been my experience with owning my 1999 E46 for almost 10 years. If your a diy type person then that goes down significantly so if that doesn't scare you than by all means buy the BMW!


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

We have one of the most expensive used car markets in years. Either wait or lease something new. FYI there are some amazing lease deals on the outgoing 3 series....


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

bmw_or_else said:


> On a related note:
> 
> Where do most BMWs go for repairs? Do you always go to the BMW dealer or are there more options? With a GM car, I could take it to pretty much anyone and get things fixed. Things like oil leaks were in fact within my reach so I just fixed those myself... I would be a bit more reluctant in tearing apart a BMW though.


Generally speaking, beyond warranty there is little reason to visit the BMW dealer.

BUT many of the newer BMWs using the MOST-BUS computer architecture are much more complex and require the diagnostic equipment to properly treat and fix issues. So often a trip to a dealer or high-end independent shop is necessary. This includes vehicles like the E90 3er, which explains why their resale value plummets after any warranty expires. Too damn hard to fix. Heck, replacing the battery requires resetting the intelligent charging system.

BMWs generally aren't cars you'd want to just drop off at Jiffy Lube or non-specialised garage. No question, maintenance WILL cost more. Using cheap parts or poorly-trained technicians can lead to a much more expensive repair. Budget $1500-2000/yr on preventative maintenace and repairs. Getting a used car is luck of the draw, and BMWs are no exception.

There are some really nice domestics out there in the market. I don't know your needs or driving environment, but cars like the Ford Fiesta make a great urban runabout and the Focus is a good value when optioned properly. The Chevy Cruze is set to come out in a diesel next year. Those will have a warranty, be easier on fuel, and you won't really need to worry about fixing stuff.

It's really whether you're willing to take a bit of a gamble on a used BMW. It could turn out well, be a great car to drive, and be reasonable ($1500-2000/yr) in running costs. But not every story has a fairy tale ending.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

I disagree with you on the value of E90s plummeting out of warranty. Even if the more sophisticated electronic architecture requires more expensive diagnostic equipment I don't think the general public has enough awareness of that for it to affect re-sale prices.

You can still do a lot of diy work on the newer models. Brakes are not any harder to do than on other BMWs. Ignition coils are a pretty easy diy. Changing the oil is easier than it is on almost any other car out there. I replaced my battery myself with the exactly correct one that I was able to buy at Wally World. Then I took it to my indy who registered it for $45.


BMWs do require a little more maintenance and are a little more expensive to work on, but they don't have to be gawd awful expensive. Maintenance on any car is expensive for owners who know nothing about their car or how to do any work on it.


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## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

$1500-$2000/year seems quite reasonable. Even a beaten up old domestic car can get that expensive quite easily. I would certainly be concerned if it was getting up to 4k or more a year. 

If I decide against paying cash straight up, I might get it financed and get a CPO and keep the car till gas prices make sense (I hope there's at least 5-10 years of cheap gas left in the world). I guess that should take care of my reliability concerns to a large extent. 

As for DIY repairs: I was very comfortable in taking every bit of my current car apart, but I am aware that BMWs can get very complicated. Being an engineer does make it easy for me to read up instructions and fix things, but I'd be a little worried in messing with things like complicated electrical problems. 

I do admit that I'm considering a BMW mainly for its brand appeal. I grew up in a poor country and now I have the requisite education and income to afford something crazy like this. The most logical thing is perhaps to get a Toyota Camry or a similar car and drive it for 20 years. I guess can do that at some later point in life 

Thanks for all the input guys! It's good to get this kind of information from actual owners. I will take my sweet time with this purchase and keep reading up till then


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## N_O_I_S_E (Apr 5, 2012)

I have been in your shoes. I made the call for the newer car and I was not happy. After two years of mediocre driving experience and lack of excitement or love for my ride, I had to give it up and switch back to something older and more fun.

Go for the Bimmer! Take that extra cash you are saving yourself and buy an old beater truck. Every man needs a truck right? Plus, when your Bimmer is in pieces in your garage because you are saving money by doing your own repairs and maintenance, you'll have something to get you to work the next day.


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## snowsled7 (Mar 20, 2012)

If you are setting aside $5k for maint initially, and getting the car fixed is a concern, why not spend half of it on a good extended warranty. For me, today, that would be a waste. I purposely have cars I can fix myself. For someone without the tools, time or space, a warranty might be a good investment.

I love my 20 yr old bimmer. Requires a little tinkering now and then but is dead reliable, and very simple to repair if need be. It looks and drives better than cars half it age, performs with new cars, it was the right choice for sure. 

I have a truck, because here, you HAVE to. Funny thing is, it is the '99 Ford that is broken and the '92 BMW is working fine as frogs hair


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## thumper_330 (Jan 3, 2009)

tturedraider said:


> Check out the E46 330i ZHP/Performance package model. Spend some time in the E46 forum. Look for cars in the classifieds here and www.ZHPMafia.com and E46Fanatics.com.


+1... and then some.

Seriously, the E46 was an awesome car (I had one) and the ZHP was definitely the one I'd buy if I were to go out and get another E46. Quite apart from that though; it was one of the easiest cars to work on I've ever owned. If you want to turn a wrench yourself (and you stated that you were cool with that), I would heartily suggest the E46, either in regular ZSP 330i form, or in ZHP awesome form.

In that regard, I miss my E46. My E60 and now my 135i are really not made to be worked on yourself. Too many electronics and nannies in the way, and although I love the N55 engine (and loved that 4.4 V8 in my E60 as well) from an engineering perspective, there's no doubt in my mind that it's far more complicated than the wonderful inline 6 in the ZHP.

HTH.


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## Turbo_525 (May 29, 2011)

I like your thinking - and if there's anything I could encouarage you to do, as one fellow engineer to another - is pay cash for whatever you buy. Do not go into debt on a depreciating asset. Start a great financial future now and be counter-cultural. http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2012/5/14/more_families_have_no_savings.htm

That said, I would encourage you to stick to a simple, manual transmission E46 or maybe (just maybe) an e39. The lower the mileage the better, the simpler the car the better too. However, (and I'll get some heat for this I'm sure) I would encourage you to go drive a Mazda 3 5-speed from 2004 - 08. Maybe an Acura TSX or TL with a 6-speed too. Sure they are FWD, but they'll handle and drive 90+ percent of a 3-series and return much less maintance requirements and get great fuel mileage (except possibly the TL.) What finally broke the deal on my e39 was the usability of the car itself. I enjoyed driving it, but having not folding rear seat (optional and rare on sedans) and wanting to tote around bicycles, skis, etc without an $800 rack mounted to the roof started to irritate me. Puls, as the years go and platforms change, these cars have gotten softer. Without the sport package, the e90 I had as a loaner felt pretty un-sporting unless pushed quite hard.

So I'll be the contrarion on this one. Cooling systems need to be replaced, ball joints and control arms will wear quickly, tires will wear quickly due to the camber and toe settings. By now you're probably getting the feeling - these are not low-maintance cars. Every BMW I've owned - e30 325i, e36 325i and e39 525i cost more and required more care than other vechiles I have owned. sometimes it was worth it. Sometimes...well, fill in the blank. My next one, which will be down the road, will be either an E36 M3 or a Z3 M coupe, it will be purely for driving enjoyment, not a DD.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I owned a '95 325i from age 5 to age 10, it cost me about $2000/year to maintain, but I tracked it a couple times a year. 

My 2004 330i costs me about $1000/year, but has only 88k miles. They start to go through parts around this age. 

I'd look at a late E36 328i ($6k) or an E46 like mine ($13-14k). There are some nice new cars in the $21k range but nothing nearly as nice as a 5 year old 3 series.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Another option is a used GTI - they drive very similar to a 3 series in feel, just not so good at going sideways around corners.


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## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

GTI would have been excellent, but I do like having a full 4 seater sedan. Friends and family complain a lot otherwise


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## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

I just noticed all the comments above. Thanks a lot guys! I have to say that you are far more sensible than what I find typically on other car forums (I have had to do that just to keep my old one running). 

I am going to keep pushing my old car for maybe a year or so more so that I have enough time to check my financial situation and evaluate my options. I have always looked at BMWs with awe ever since I was a kid, but I have always been told that they can drain cash quite easily. But, it seems I can quite easily manage to pay off the kind of numbers you guys have been taking about and still save enough to buy a house in a few years  I will test out a few old BMWs, but I might just get a CPO to be at ease for the initial few years I have it. I really don't mind doing any DIY jobs, but they require time and equipment which I don't always have.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

bmw_or_else said:


> GTI would have been excellent, but I do like having a full 4 seater sedan. Friends and family complain a lot otherwise


The 5 door GTI has similar rear room to a 3 series (which haven't really grown in terms of passenger space in 3 generations) - however the trunk is tiny compared to a 3.


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## Turbo_525 (May 29, 2011)

Yep, save up and buy a starter house first, then look into an older one to have some fun with.

My house has not been nearly the drain on the bank account that I thought it was going to be. 

Plus the house *may* even appreciate slowly over time. Can't say the same of a car.


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## YinD (Apr 10, 2012)

I was in your shoes about 20 years ago and kept buying the logical car. Well now I am 40 and said f** the logical decision. If you have a grin on your face and it turns your head, then get one and get that out of your system. Then let your brain do the thinking about the costs, planning and reliability. 

Anyone who loves the driving experience will find ways to keep the car running.

I have owned a 93 Acura integra and it had 260k miles on it. I still own a 97 land cruiser with 188k miles. They leak oil, have fits, and run about the same price for parts. In my experience, thought, my 03 540 with 130k miles has had way more parts replaced than either of my other beaters. But driving it puts a grin on my face. So I am in it with no complaints.

I agree with these guys about not taking it to just any mechanic. Too many detailed things that can screw up things. I also keep my backup cruiser for when I want to tinker with the 540. I also use the cruiser to haul the fam. 

I say follow your heart and let your brain tell you what you need to do to keep the heart happy.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

+1 don't let us old guys talk you into the sensible thing (buying a Honda Civic) - when you're young and still have decent testosterone levels, get a fun car, even if you can't afford it. That's what I did when I was young. 

After all, when you're 40, you might have lots of money, but you won't have the testosterone to enjoy it with.


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## bmw_or_else (May 8, 2012)

You guys are great! My older siblings said the same thing


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Go used BMW, just be sure it has been maintained properly. N4S


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

Keep reading the forums, but keep in mind you're only seeing posts with problems. Silent majority.

You know what you're in for with a $5k repair budget.
If you're willing to DIY, you might enjoy this new hobby.

You're not looking for a race car.
You're not looking to piss $10k on "ricer mods"

I say go for it.

I also say, go cheaper.
I bought a 2001 BMW 530i with 118k miles for about $6000.
I've put in about $3000, which includes a lot of preventative repairs that didn't need to be done.
I still have a massive budget surplus compared to buying a newer BMW.

Sometimes, a car with 120k miles may need less work than a car with 60k miles, b/c tons of stuff has already been done.


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## joels328i (Mar 31, 2012)

*Used bimmer ftw*



bmw_or_else said:


> Blah blah blah...
> 
> Should I get a used (~$15k) BMW 3 series vs. (~$21k) new non-BMW car?
> 
> ... blah blah blah...


I say get the Bimmer. I was in almost exactly the same situation. I am a fresh college grad as well, and I was originally planning on buying a brand new car. My price range was $24-26. So I was looking at things like a Cruze/Jetta.

Then I started looking around at CPO BMWs, and ended up buying a 2009 BMW 328i xDrive with tons of equipment.

If you are able, go CPO for the extra piece of mind. Otherwise, I say buy the Bimmer anyway. It's been my absolute favorite thing I've ever done. The car is incredible, and using BMWUSA to find CPOs, I was able to get exactly what I wanted from another state.

Good luck!


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## joels328i (Mar 31, 2012)

Oh yeah, and I was eligible for the College Grad program, so I got a $750 incentive and 3.9% APR.


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

$23K.... hmmmm

VW Jetta GLI, skip the nav and you could get it for under 23K. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds with the auto (Dual clutch). 22 city, 33 hwy mpg.... 
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1112_2012_volkswagen_jetta_gli_autobahn_first_test/


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## DrivenByF30 (Feb 8, 2012)

*cheaper with mileage or more expensive virgin*

Up until now, i have always driven used BMWs only...










... but this year i have decided to pull the trigger on a brand spankin new virgin BMW :bigpimp:

you can view my F30 honeymoon in euro delivery thread very soon


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