# No USAA discount with ED? Seriously?!



## ShinySteelRobot (Aug 22, 2005)

Was just over at my local dealer finalizing the paperwork for my European Delivery next month. I gave the CA my offer code for the USAA discount and also my OL code for the "BMW Ultimate Driving Experience VIP Event" I attended last summer.

Unfortunately the CA said that neither the USAA discount nor the Driving Experience code are applicable to ED cars. Argh, WTH? 

That's $1500 in discounts down the drain.

Has that always been the policy, or is this something new? 

Thanks for any info.


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## shark715 (Nov 20, 2011)

It's correct, and as we discovered, it makes ED not quite the bargain we originally thought it was. Live and learn.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

You are already getting a huge discount, thousands of dollars more than the piddly $1,500 you are whining about, just by doing ED.


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## ChicagoBigHouse (Sep 2, 2013)

Wine-O said:


> You are already getting a huge discount, thousands of dollars more than the piddly $1,500 you are whining about, just by doing ED.


At a certain point, the ED experience is just the 'experience'. It sounds like if you play your cards right with your BMW dealer, with various discounts, you could do close to as well as ED.

Basically, the difference is the ED experience.

If I can score the equivalent of airfare for 2 in terms of the ED discount, I'll take it. I loved the experience. I'll definitely do it again for my next car. But as time goes on, I'll probably just take the discount at the dealer, through USAA and the drive events, and travel without the ED.


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## pbjjj (Aug 2, 2015)

ED isn't really "cheaper" after you add in the travel expenses. I have seen huge discounts at dealerships for 3, 5, 6 series that probably are better deals than ED pricing. It is indeed for the experience, especially the part that you get to drive your own BMW in Europe!


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> Unfortunately the CA said that neither the USAA discount nor the Driving Experience code are applicable to ED cars. Argh, WTH? Has that always been the policy, or is this something new?


USAA has never been stackbale with ED; and it's been ~15-18 years since I've able to stack a driving experience discount with ED.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

dkreidel said:


> USAA has never been stackbale with ED; and it's been ~15-18 years since I've able to stack a driving experience discount with ED.


I saved over $7,000 over MSRP + got an additional $500 from BMWCCA. I don't think any dealer could beat that including the USAA & other discounts.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Good point - the BMW CCA rebates are $500 to $1,500 - and you can get 1 rebate/yr :thumbup:


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## ShinySteelRobot (Aug 22, 2005)

Thanks guys, appreciate all the info/feedback.

Yes, at least there's the $500 CCA rebate.



Wine-O said:


> You are already getting a huge discount, thousands of dollars more than the piddly $1,500 you are whining about, just by doing ED.


Maybe it's just me, I don't consider $1,500 "piddly". Not in my tax bracket anyway. 

And I wouldn't say I'm _whining_ about it. Right at the start of the negotiating process I told my CA I planned to do ED and that I qualified for USAA and Ultimate Driving discounts. He never told me they're not compatible with ED until yesterday when I was about to sign on the dotted line. I was simply _irked_ because it would have been good to know in advance. So I think I have a right to feel that way. :dunno:

FWIW, I don't think my CA was intentionally deceptive, he seems like a great guy and I simply don't think he does that many EDs to know all the gotchas -- he found out when he went to apply the USAA code and Ultimate Driving code yesterday. He's been totally upfront about everything else.


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## Bikie (May 2, 2004)

Before you sign call Jim Mannheimer at BMW Salem I,m sure he will beat any deal you can get in WA. Easy dal with E mail. When car comes one way rental to Salem OR about $100 or less. No haggle deals.


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## ShinySteelRobot (Aug 22, 2005)

Thanks for the great advice. Actually I got a pretty good deal (I think) at my local dealership after cross shopping dealers as far away as Portland. Sounds like there are some excellent dealers in Oregon.

FWIW, if I had been able to apply the USAA discount / Ultimate Driving discount to my local deal, I would have been paying below dealer invoice ED price.


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## RKA (Dec 1, 2002)

He wasn't calling $1500 piddly, he said compared to the ED discount it's relatively small. So if you had an either or choice, you wouldn't want the USAA discount anyway. 

Nobody is debating that $1500 is a lot of money. Just look at all the crying in the price increase thread, including yours truly!


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## ShinySteelRobot (Aug 22, 2005)

RKA said:


> He wasn't calling $1500 piddly, he said compared to the ED discount it's relatively small.


MSRP on the X1 is $34800. The standard ED discount (7%) off the MSRP on the X1 is about *$2400* saved, versus the *$1500* I would have saved had I used USAA / Ultimate Driving _instead_ of ED.

In other words ED was $900 cheaper than just a normal delivery+discounts at the dealership.

In retrospect I look at it as a $900 discount off my $3K Germany trip for 5 days in December, which I'm really looking forward to.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> MSRP on the X1 is $34800. The standard ED discount (7%) off the MSRP on the X1 is about *$2400* saved, versus the *$1500* I would have saved had I used USAA / Ultimate Driving _instead_ of ED.
> 
> In other words ED was $900 cheaper than just a normal delivery+discounts at the dealership.
> 
> In retrospect I look at it as a $900 discount off my $3K Germany trip for 5 days in December, which I'm really looking forward to.


I'm not sure you are using the correct ED formula. You take U.S. MSRP and multiply by .93 (might be .95 now), then take that figure and multiply by .92 to get the ED cost. Take all your options and multiply by .91. Add all that up + $995 destination charge, and $500 dealer profit for an X1, and you could do much better.

You need to get better figures from a BMW ED specialists. I would recommend one of the board sponsors.


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## cruise_bone (Jun 6, 2007)

pbjjj said:


> ED isn't really "cheaper" after you add in the travel expenses. I have seen huge discounts at dealerships for 3, 5, 6 series that probably are better deals than ED pricing. It is indeed for the experience, especially the part that you get to drive your own BMW in Europe!


WRONG. I saved several thousand on my ED even after my all travel expenses.


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## rmichae9 (Apr 27, 2008)

ShinySteelRobot said:


> MSRP on the X1 is $34800. The standard ED discount (7%) off the MSRP on the X1 is about *$2400* saved, versus the *$1500* I would have saved had I used USAA / Ultimate Driving _instead_ of ED.
> 
> In other words ED was $900 cheaper than just a normal delivery+discounts at the dealership.
> 
> In retrospect I look at it as a $900 discount off my $3K Germany trip for 5 days in December, which I'm really looking forward to.


At the risk of sounding snobbish, 7% off of a $100k car and 7% off a $40k car are very different, while $1500 is the same no matter how expensive the car. So many other reasons why ED *may* make sense for an individual, detailed in a multitude of threads. I saved a ton (lots more than 7%) and had an amazing experience.

Can't recommend using a board sponsor enough- I used Greg Poland and will use him again for my next purchase, which I will do via ED again.


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## cptcrunch (Jan 9, 2010)

I just did the math and it seems that with UDE and USAA discounts, ED only saves $200:

F30 340i MSRP 57140
ED Invoice - 40029.2 ((Base 45,800 * .95) * .92)
ED Options Invoice - 9441.25 (10,375 * .91)
Plus Destination and Handling - 995
Total ED Invoice 50465.45

F30 340i MSRP 57140
US Invoice (MSRP * .93) - 53168.1

With UDE at $1,000 and USAA at $1,500, the difference between US and ED Invoice is $202.65

I didn't realize that USAA/UDE and other incentives do not stack with ED Invoice. This doesn't really change anything for me, as I still am going to do ED in April, but it makes the ED discount a wash with current incentives. (of course, if my math is wrong, please let me know)


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## dpritchett (Sep 6, 2006)

I broke even as far as total outlay is concerned ... but instead of driving the 3 miles to Lakeside Drive to pick up the car, I went to Munich and drove all over Germany and Austria for 10 days!


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

dkreidel said:


> USAA has never been stackbale with ED


DKreidel is correct, never been stackable; in fact the USAA offer is also not stackable with BMW CCA Rebate. From my experience, the USAA Offer and BMW CCA rebate both offer the same $$$. The CAs hardly ever know the details themselves, but 'stackability' is pretty clearly laid out in the fine print if you bother.

As per the "ED doesn't save money" sidetrack to this conversation - you 'can' save a great deal of money, particularly on the more expensive BMWs _and_ ED provides fairly significant benefits to the leasers. My approach (if one bothers to look back at my trip reports) is that I get a sizable discount on my monthly car payment for the 'cost' of being forced to take a nice trip to Europe. Life sucks.


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## Milo911MD (Apr 14, 2015)

I have to disagree


AggieKnight said:


> As per the "ED doesn't save money" sidetrack to this conversation - you 'can' save a great deal of money, particularly on the more expensive BMWs _and_ ED provides fairly significant benefits to the leasers. My approach (if one bothers to look back at my trip reports) is that I get a sizable discount on my monthly car payment for the 'cost' of being forced to take a nice trip to Europe. Life sucks.


I think you guys are forgetting to add something in your calculations at least for the leasing situation..
With ED you pay for 2-3 months (east coast vs. west) that you are not using your car. ( You sign 10 days prior to Welt center +6-8 week/ 8-10 week transport time).
Please don't tell me BMW is making your 2nd payment. They do, but they also increase your MF by 0.0003 to make up for that. (if you actually do the math 35 payment with higher MF is overall more expensive than 36 payment with the lower MF. You don't even have an option to picking the lower MF and skipping the free month with ED).
So if you lease a BMW every 3 years, ion order to do that with ED you have to do an overlap of 3 months (vs US delivery). The 3 extra payment will further negate the ED savings.

This is even true with higher priced car as well., since the dealers have a higher margins on the US delivery yo will get relatively a better deal. I will give you an example of of what i was considering almost 9 months ago for a car with US MSRP around 115K. Same CA: US deal US invoice-2.5K. ED deal, ED invoice +1K. That made US $3990 more expensive. But that is before you add other discounts that would apply to US delivery only. Then when you add 3 extra payment $4029 ( for Calif) that I would have with the ED lease for the overlap, The ED would have become more expensive by $39 over the cost of the lease. That is even before you add the following items: travel expenses, work opportunity lost during your ED trip and the discounts that would apply to US program only.

My overall conclusion was at least in my case with back to back leasing, ED is not worth purely as numbers game and the hassle . 
It is good as an experience you should probably do once and combine it with with FC Bayer Munchen game.


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

cptcrunch said:


> I didn't realize that USAA/UDE and other incentives do not stack with ED Invoice. This doesn't really change anything for me, as I still am going to do ED in April, but it makes the ED discount a wash with current incentives. (of course, if my math is wrong, please let me know)


Didn't check the math, but I think the basic principle is correct.

You maximize ED savings when you would otherwise be paying MSRP for the model purchased in the US. For years, many BMWs were selling at MSRP or close to it, no matter how good you were at negotiation. But, with incentives and more flexibility/willingness for dealers to negotiate, the savings on ED vs. what you could negotiate on US delivery (with incentives all in) have declined. That may or may not make ED a less attractive proposition - to be sure, the "savings" are reduced, making the "free" vacation a little less luxurious.


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## shark715 (Nov 20, 2011)

Tanning machine said:


> For years, many BMWs were selling at MSRP or close to it, no matter how good you were at negotiation.


Not sure where this info came from, but that absolutely not has been my experience for the last 30 years, except when you are trying to buy a model that there truly is a shortage on or a waiting list for. Some dealers will always try to tell you there is a shortage of the model you are interested in, when it's simply not the case.

There are still dealers out there claiming that they have few 2 series in stock because they are hard to get. That's just laughable, because the real reason they don't stock them is the lack of demand, at least here in the U.S.

The proof...you can walk into any dealer and special order a 2 series (not including the M2, of course) and it will be rolling out of the Leipzig factory within several weeks, if not faster. If there was such a backlog of orders, obviously that would not be the case.

Don't fall victim to the dealer nonsense. Just invest a little bit of time and find a hungry dealer. I've always (other than as noted above) found wide pricing variations form dealer to dealer. I hate it when I hear of car dealers taking advantage of customers.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

dkreidel said:


> USAA has never been stackbale with ED; and it's been ~15-18 years since I've able to stack a driving experience discount with ED.


Exactly.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

I gladly pay $200 *not* to have my car delivered at my local dealer.



cptcrunch said:


> I just did the math and it seems that with UDE and USAA discounts, ED only saves $200:
> 
> F30 340i MSRP 57140
> ED Invoice - 40029.2 ((Base 45,800 * .95) * .92)
> ...


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

Milo911MD said:


> I have to disagree
> ...
> My overall conclusion was at least in my case with back to back leasing, ED is not worth purely as numbers game and the hassle .
> It is good as an experience you should probably do once and combine it with with FC Bayer Munchen game.


I'm curious if you have done an ED.

I can only speak from personal experience. A good friend of mine and I have almost identical BMWs (550s) leased two months apart. I ED'd my car and he didn't. True it took 7 weeks for my car to arrive in the US, but my monthly payment for nearly identical terms is $400/month cheaper than his. That's a lot of green over three years; more than enough to pay for a very nice multi-week trip.


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## Milo911MD (Apr 14, 2015)

AggieKnight said:


> I'm curious if you have done an ED.
> 
> I can only speak from personal experience. A good friend of mine and I have almost identical BMWs (550s) leased two months apart. I ED'd my car and he didn't. True it took 7 weeks for my car to arrive in the US, but my monthly payment for nearly identical terms is $400/month cheaper than his. That's a lot of green over three years; more than enough to pay for a very nice multi-week trip.


To answer your question, No I have not done ED. I am numbers kind of person. I have been close on 2 occasion to pull the trigger on ED, however the numbers did not make any sense for me to do ED. I have been doing back to back BMW leases every 3 years for numerous years.

I think you are forgetting something or confused, if you think you saved $400 monthly on an identical cars with identical terms except for ED vs. US you are mistaken.:rofl: . This is simple math and differential equation based on lease formula. A very rough calculation, since majority of monthly payment is on depreciation, you save ~ $3600 for every $100 difference on lease payment ( in your case $14,400). If you want to be very precise you need to plug it in to the formula , which would have given you a saving of $13,745.70 on your cap cost between ED vs US delivery. Assuming you negotiated reasonably well, and you purchased the vehicles close to invoice, for the above to be true it means the US invoice - $13,745.70 = ED invoice. Since the average estimation of ED saving is 7%, it also means US invoice x 0.93 = ED invoice. If you solve for that it gives you 0.07xUS invoice= $13,745.70, thus giving you a US invoice of around $196,367.14 with an approximate US MSRP of $213,442.54. I don't believe BMW has ever manufactured a 550 with that that kind of MSRP. I think you are confused about the amount of your monthly savings compared to your buddy, alternatively you might have put down some money towards cap cost reduction that he did not do, thus giving you a false perception of huge monthly savings.

In my case I still have the emails from 9-10 months ago. Same dealer for both quotes: 
US MSRP around 112K. Exact car , exact same terms ( except ED delivery MF higher by 0.0003, in lieu of 1 less payment, the 2nd lease payment)

ED deal: ED invoice + $1000 ( no MF or other markups)
US deal: US invoice - $2500 ( no MF or other markups)

ED monthly payments; $1343.20
US monthly payments; $1386.98

Amount over 36 months paid to BMWFS: 
ED: $47,965.73 = ($1343.20x35) + $953.73 doc/acc fees
US: $50,885.03 = ($1386.98x36) + $953.73 doc/acc fees

It gives an appearance of $2,919.30 savings for ED.

However for in my situation the total cost is different. As I explained in previous post in order for me to have a car at all times with back to back EDs leases. I have to extend/ overlap the ED lease by 3 month, which will cost me additional 3 ED lease payments and additional year of registration fees. Thus bringing the total cost as follows:

ED: $ 54,871.33= $47,965.73 + ($1343.20x3) + ($719 registration x4)
US: $ 53,042.03 = $50,885.03 + ($719 registration x3).

This now makes the US delivery cheaper by $1829.30, even before any travel expenses, work opportunity lost during your ED trip and the discounts that would apply to US program only worked in


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## shark715 (Nov 20, 2011)

Milo911MD said:


> To answer your question, No I have not done ED. I am numbers kind of person. I have been close on 2 occasion to pull the trigger on ED, however the numbers did not make any sense for me to do ED. I have been doing back to back BMW leases every 3 years for numerous years.
> 
> I think you are forgetting something or confused, if you think you saved $400 monthly on an identical cars with identical terms except for ED vs. US you are mistaken.:rofl: . This is simple math and differential equation based on lease formula. A very rough calculation, since majority of monthly payment is on depreciation, you save ~ $3600 for every $100 difference on lease payment ( in your case $14,400). If you want to be very precise you need to plug it in to the formula , which would have given you a saving of $13,745.70 on your cap cost between ED vs US delivery. Assuming you negotiated reasonably well, and you purchased the vehicles close to invoice, for the above to be true it means the US invoice - $13,745.70 = ED invoice. Since the average estimation of ED saving is 7%, it also means US invoice x 0.93 = ED invoice. If you solve for that it gives you 0.07xUS invoice= $13,745.70, thus giving you a US invoice of around $196,367.14 with an approximate US MSRP of $213,442.54. I don't believe BMW has ever manufactured a 550 with that that kind of MSRP. I think you are confused about the amount of your monthly savings compared to your buddy, alternatively you might have put down some money towards cap cost reduction that he did not do, thus giving you a false perception of huge monthly savings.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to calculate all the details. Like you said, there's just no way that the monthly lease cost on a 550 would vary $400 simply because of ED versus traditional dealer pricing. We recently did a ED delivery, and agree with all your logic above. Even if you are not paying for a lease on another car while you are waiting for permanent delivery on your ED vehicle, if there's another car you are holding onto instead of selling it's costing you something. The ED program is not quite the bargain it first appears to be. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of ED...we had a great experience and a wonderful vacation, and would certainly consider it again, but the way we would look at the economics of the decision would be different, especially given the discount reduction to 5%. I'm just suggesting that everyone have their eyes wide open regarding the REAL costs before making the commitment.


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## davidk (Feb 13, 2006)

Having done two EDs, and hopefully another one in 2017, I can verify you will not save any money with the ED program if you include the travel expenses. If all you do with an ED is fly to Munich, drive your car to the drop off location, and fly back home, you may save some, but not much over a properly negotiated deal in the US. With the EDs I have done, the discounted price typically covered the airfare and maybe a little more. If the only reason you are doing ED is to save money, you will lose. ED is about the experience of picking your new BMW up at the Velt and driving it around touring Germany and surrounding countries. A BMW Velt delivery is like none you have ever experienced anywhere else. The worst part of ED is the wait once you drop your car off. You essentially lose about 6 - 8 weeks of warranty due to shipping times, as well as not having your brand new BMW to drive. That being said, I think it sucks that most of the current discounts do not apply to cars purchased through the ED program.


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## shark715 (Nov 20, 2011)

davidk said:


> Having done two EDs, and hopefully another one in 2017, I can verify you will not save any money with the ED program if you include the travel expenses.


A blanket statement like that is erroneous because the economics change substantially if you are buying a $100k vehicle versus a $50k vehicle.


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## pbjjj (Aug 2, 2015)

shark715 said:


> A blanket statement like that is erroneous because the economics change substantially if you are buying a $100k vehicle versus a $50k vehicle.


It is very true that people who benefit the most economically from ED are the ones who purchase expensive and/or in-demand BMW that dealers give little to no discount. When I picked up my X1 at the Welt, there was a guy picking up his white 2016 7-series. Gorgeous car. The ED saving of my sub-50K car seems _almost_ inconsequential compared to his ED saving from the $100K+ 7-series.

Nevertheless, personally the ED experience is priceless, especially for me who has been fascinated by cars since I was 1 month old. I told my friends that seeing and driving my X1 in Germany is like witnessing the birth of a child and holding the child in person at the hospital.  I am not sure why I had not done this when buying my previous BMWs. I am also an avid traveler who would travel abroad for vacation at least twice a year. Thus, I would do ED again despite of the little to no savings for my price range.

I do agree the downside to ED is the wait. It's the same as giving you a nice toy to play just to get you hooked then take it away for couple months.


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## Brian R. (Sep 5, 2002)

The other thing is everyone's experience negotiating is different depending on the model, how new it is, time of year, etc. Even on ED pricing the offers back varied wildly, as I'm sure regular negotiation is as well.


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## jjclyde (Jan 15, 2006)

There is another cost savings that ED provides that I've not seen mentioned. But it's only a savings on the cost of the European travel - so this is an interesting savings only if you assume that it's a given you're going to be spending money on a European roadtrip ...

Free car rental in Europe! We travel to Italy twice a year, and renting a car is a non-trivial expense. Typically we rent an Alfa Romeo Giulietta - and it runs about 300 Euro a week (after adding mandatory theft protect, VAT, Airport "concession fees" etc). I imagine renting a brand new BMW comparable to those that we get to drive on our ED adventures would be twice that. At least.

So - if you assume the cost of car rental is a sunk-cost in your ED adventure - having a "free" car (and a great one at that!) is indeed a cost savings. If you are on more than a 3 or 4 day turnaround, it can add up. We are typically there for 3 to 4 weeks per visit - so for us, it really adds up.

And on top of that - you have a much better ride (not that a Giulietta is so bad - but there's not really any comparison when driving spiritedly through the Dolomiti. )


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## Milo911MD (Apr 14, 2015)

jjclyde said:


> There is another cost savings that ED provides that I've not seen mentioned. But it's only a savings on the cost of the European travel - so this is an interesting savings only if you assume that it's a given you're going to be spending money on a European roadtrip ...
> 
> Free car rental in Europe! We travel to Italy twice a year, and renting a car is a non-trivial expense. Typically we rent an Alfa Romeo Giulietta - and it runs about 300 Euro a week (after adding mandatory theft protect, VAT, Airport "concession fees" etc). I imagine renting a brand new BMW comparable to those that we get to drive on our ED adventures would be twice that. At least.
> 
> ...


Good point
However if you keep the ED and drive it in Europe for 2 weeks, that furthers delays your US arrival atleast by 2 weeks ( more if they need to fix damages incur because of driving it there). Thus requiring additional 2 weeks of an overlap or paying for another vehicle, which will certainly negates any cost saving of not having to get rent a car in Europe.:dunno:


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## jjclyde (Jan 15, 2006)

Milo911MD said:


> Good point
> However if you keep the ED and drive it in Europe for 2 weeks, that furthers delays your US arrival atleast by 2 weeks ( more if they need to fix damages incur because of driving it there). Thus requiring additional 2 weeks of an overlap or paying for another vehicle, which will certainly negates any cost saving of not having to get rent a car in Europe.:dunno:


Well - kinda sorta.

I agree with the point that I'm paying for my ED delivered car (lease, loan, cash, whatever) while waiting for it to be delivered. But I don't really agree that the time I'm driving it in Europe is extending the time during which I must own 2 cars (1 in Europe/on-boat, one in US).

2 points of semi-rebuttal:

1 - My US car would be sitting there idle during my time in Europe whether I was doing ED, or whether I was renting a car - so you can't charge that as an extra period of double ownership. That makes the how-long-I-keep-my-ED-car in Europe a moot point. The double expense is valid only during the shipping-wait-time. No? Which leads me to re-iterate that ED does give you a free car while in Europe. Ok - not free - you are paying for it - but much less than you'd pay for a comparable rented car. Less even, than a non-comparable rental car. Which brings me to point 2 ...

2 - The cost of renting a car (comparable to what you drive when you do ED) is much much higher than the cost of owning the ED car - so there is definitely savings to be had here. Especially if you pay for insurance while renting that protects you as well as ED insurance does (most people are unaware that their US insurance likely provides them zero coverage while driving a rented car outside of the US). Granted - it's not obvious that those savings would be greater than the cost of double-ownership during the shipping wait-time. Might be greater might not - the longer you are in Europe, the more likely this would be a savings.

Just food for thought - not trying to make the case the ED is a giant cost savings mechanism. For me it's all about the adventure. Saving on my rental cost helps me rationalize getting a new car more often than is really necessary. 

That said, I met a couple on my first ED (2005) who were picking up a 3-series touring - and driving it to their second home in Spain. They said they did it annually, and kept the car in Spain for 4 or 5 months, then sent it home to Florida, where they then sold it fairly quickly. They said it provided them the car they needed while in Spain at far less expense than renting. I'm going to have to do the math on that one the next time we spend 6 weeks or more in Italy -- they might be on to something there.


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## shark715 (Nov 20, 2011)

jjclyde said:


> That said, I met a couple on my first ED (2005) who were picking up a 3-series touring - and driving it to their second home in Spain. They said they did it annually, and kept the car in Spain for 4 or 5 months, then sent it home to Florida, where they then sold it fairly quickly. They said it provided them the car they needed while in Spain at far less expense than renting. I'm going to have to do the math on that one the next time we spend 6 weeks or more in Italy -- they might be on to something there.


When we did our ED last month I recall having to sign something when we picked the car up in Munich agreeing to certain restrictions about selling the car. We didn't pay close attention to it as we have no plans to sell the car, but if I recall correctly it addressed the type of situation being referred to above. Does anyone else remember what this was about and the specifics? Also, I'm not clear how BMW could enforce this on a practical basis.


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## Milo911MD (Apr 14, 2015)

jjclyde said:


> Well - kinda sorta.
> 
> I agree with the point that I'm paying for my ED delivered car (lease, loan, cash, whatever) while waiting for it to be delivered. But I don't really agree that the time I'm driving it in Europe is extending the time during which I must own 2 cars (1 in Europe/on-boat, one in US).
> 
> ...


Well, kinda sorta but not quite,
let me give you an example in order to try to explain myself better.
Assume you were leasing a bimmer every 3 years. And you were going to ED every 3 years.

Every 3 years in mid April you place the order, for July 10 pick up.
Every 3 years you sign the lease paperwork on July 1 here in US prior to your trip ( giving you a lease start up date of 7/1)
Every 3 years you pick up your car at Welt center on July 10th, and immediately give it back to them after you victory lap for redelivery. 
Every 3 years you expect to pick up your car at local SoCal dealer the last week of September.
Every 3 year you need to extend your prior lease in July 1st by 3 months, while waiting for the next one to arrive. ( 3 extra lease payments).

Now if you drive the ED car in Germany by couple of weeks and drop it off on July24th instead of July 10th, your car will arrive in your SoCal dealer in first 10 days of October. thus requiring you to extend your lease of your prior car by 4 months instead of 3 months. 
Difference extra month of lease payment vs 2 weeks of free car in Europe. Plus some cities in Europe you are better off not having a car at all (Venice, rome,..) because all you do is pay for parking and use public transportation anyway.

But I could not agree with you more. It is all about the adventure and experience.
When I was growing up in early 70s, My uncle had a BMW 3.0 CSI and Bayern Munich was tearing up the world football. I fell in love with both brands, which has always continued and have remained loyal. For me personally ED does not make sense financially. But I will be doing one in next couple of years. I want to time it correctly. I am trying to find a date around the Octoberfest that Bayern Munich has a Saturday home game, followed by a mid week CL or DFB Pokal Cup home game. That way I can pick the car up on Friday at Welt and return immediately to them. See 2 Bayern's home game and enjoy Octoberfest activities before heading home in a week.:bigpimp:


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

Milo911MD said:


> To answer your question, No I have not done ED. I am numbers kind of person. I have been close on 2 occasion to pull the trigger on ED, however the numbers did not make any sense for me to do ED. I have been doing back to back BMW leases every 3 years for numerous years.
> 
> I think you are forgetting something or confused, if you think you saved $400 monthly on an identical cars with identical terms except for ED vs. US you are mistaken.:rofl: . This is simple math and differential equation based on lease formula. A very rough calculation, since majority of monthly payment is on depreciation, you save ~ $3600 for every $100 difference on lease payment ( in your case $14,400). If you want to be very precise you need to plug it in to the formula , which would have given you a saving of $13,745.70 on your cap cost between ED vs US delivery. Assuming you negotiated reasonably well, and you purchased the vehicles close to invoice, for the above to be true it means the US invoice - $13,745.70 = ED invoice. Since the average estimation of ED saving is 7%, it also means US invoice x 0.93 = ED invoice. If you solve for that it gives you 0.07xUS invoice= $13,745.70, thus giving you a US invoice of around $196,367.14 with an approximate US MSRP of $213,442.54. I don't believe BMW has ever manufactured a 550 with that that kind of MSRP. I think you are confused about the amount of your monthly savings compared to your buddy, alternatively you might have put down some money towards cap cost reduction that he did not do, thus giving you a false perception of huge monthly savings.
> 
> ...


It's good to see that you understand the differences for your situation, but looking at my own situation, I have seen significant ED savings and significant USD savings depending on the car and the timing. My last ED worked out to be ED invoice - $3.5k (due to program incentives that applied to ED) which was much better than the US Invoice deal that I negotiated, but my last USD was US invoice - $10k which was better than I could get with ED which was at ED invoice. I also don't need to overlap my leases (multicar family), so ED can be done purely based on using my savings to pay for a free vacation. I'm going on a couple vacations per year anyway, so the year's I pick up a car, I travel through Europe vice flying to an island. A week on an island usually runs me $5-7k, while Europe usually runs me $3-5k. That said, my next ED will most likely be for an MB AMG GT vert for no savings at all. The experience of driving a vert at 180+ mph will be worth the trip's expense. :thumbup:

P.S. One thing that I think you may have missed in your numbers is that you drove your overlapping lease car roughly 3kmi for a $540 savings ($0.18/mi) and you shouldn't need to pay for an additional year's registration if you back-to-back ED lease since your registration won't happen until you take delivery in the US, so making even the slightest effort for correct timing will save $719. BTW for east coasters, the timing situation isn't as dire, my experience has been 5-7 weeks from signing to redelivery, thus only two months of overlap would be needed for the east coaster. Also, I usually sign my paperwork a day or two before I leave, so that also helps minimize the timeline.


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## jjclyde (Jan 15, 2006)

shark715 said:


> When we did our ED last month I recall having to sign something when we picked the car up in Munich agreeing to certain restrictions about selling the car. We didn't pay close attention to it as we have no plans to sell the car, but if I recall correctly it addressed the type of situation being referred to above. Does anyone else remember what this was about and the specifics? Also, I'm not clear how BMW could enforce this on a practical basis.


Once an ED car is re-delivered in the US, it is no different, legally, than a car you bought from a US dealer. So there can't be any ED-specific restrictions on the sale of the car once it's been redelivered in the US.

In the case of the couple I mentioned above - they were selling the car AFTER re-delivery in Florida. Specifically - they were selling the car in the US. Their basic MO was: Go spend 4 or 5 months attending to their business in Spain, get an ED car to serve as transportation while there. Then spend the remainder of the year in the US, attending to the US-side of their business. Repeat annually. Seemed a pretty neat way to have a car while they were in Spain, and to not have to worry about storing a car there while they were in Florida.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are restrictions (that you must acknowledge via signature during ED delivery at the Welt) that prohibit the resale of an ED car in Europe. That would certainly generate bureaucratic "issues".


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## jjclyde (Jan 15, 2006)

Milo911MD said:


> Well, kinda sorta but not quite,
> let me give you an example in order to try to explain myself better.
> Assume you were leasing a bimmer every 3 years. And you were going to ED every 3 years.


I think we agree about the potential cost-savings (or not) of ED. Without intending to continue the debate, I don't think driving the ED car in Europe makes the savings any better or worse - that is a push. And I do think driving an ED car in Europe is cheaper than driving a (comparable) rented car.

But your example of the recurring 3 year ED lease thing is an excellent simplistic way to look at it. Using the SoCal delivery timeframe of 2 months (my first took 7 weeks, the one I just completed took 9) - you can view this 3 year rotation of cars very simplistically. Going with your example - it requires an extension of each 3 year lease by 3 months (1 for upfront ED lead time, 2 for ED re-delivery). So you are effectively making 38 lease payments (36+3-1) for your 36 month lease time frame. Put ultra simply - it costs you 2 extra lease payments.

But those 38 lease payments are ED lease payments, which will be less than US lease payments for the same car.

So simplistically, if your ED monthly payment is 36/38th's or less than what your equivalent US-purchased lease payment would be, then ED is cheaper. And that ignores the "savings" on car rental that we were discussing earlier.

That's pretty straightforward - no? I'll have to go figure what that would be for mine ....


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## jjclyde (Jan 15, 2006)

jjclyde said:


> I'll have to go figure what that would be for mine ....


Did the math. Compared my ED lease payment with an equivalent-deal (same $$s over invoice) US lease payment. And yes, I did reduce the MF by .0003 for the US lease calc.

Result: ED saved me 9%.

I multiplied my ED lease by N+2. Multiplied US lease by N. ED total was 91% of the US total.

So - with my particular car & deal, I could do the rolling-ED lease thing, and save 9%.

Better than I expected.


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

Stop with the "ED doesn't save money" rants guys. My wife won't let me do it again if I can't tell her it saves big bucks, even on an X1.


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## jjclyde (Jan 15, 2006)

Ok - I'm done - but hey, I just gave you an excellent fact-based argument that ED does save money: Real-world-proven, shipping-wait-time-factored-in. A 9% savings on total of lease payments by doing ED. And that was on a less expensive model (M235i), not a 100K+ car. 

ED-away!


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

shark715 said:


> Not sure where this info came from, but that absolutely not has been my experience for the last 30 years, except when you are trying to buy a model that there truly is a shortage on or a waiting list for. Some dealers will always try to tell you there is a shortage of the model you are interested in, when it's simply not the case.


True story.... one dealer just told me there are only two allocation slots left in the ENTIRE US.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

jjclyde said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if there are restrictions (that you must acknowledge via signature during ED delivery at the Welt) that prohibit the resale of an ED car in Europe. That would certainly generate bureaucratic "issues".


Correct. You can't sell the car in Europe while on ED, but can sell it after re-delivery as you please


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## shark715 (Nov 20, 2011)

furby076 said:


> True story.... one dealer just told me there are only two allocation slots left in the ENTIRE US.


My favorite story is a few years back when I was helping my sister buy a new X3 35i. The dealer told us that they could not discount the 35i price because they were in such tight supply. We returned to the same dealer a few days later to look at colors, and they obviously forgot what they had told us a few days before. We went to an off site storage lot, and they had 14 35i's in stock!


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## cptcrunch (Jan 9, 2010)

So it has been mentioned that USAA discounts do not apply to ED, but what about Holiday Cash or Option Credits?


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

cptcrunch said:


> So it has been mentioned that USAA discounts do not apply to ED, but what about Holiday Cash or Option Credits?


They do. I just signed papers for an ED with Novemberfestadder and Option Credit applied.


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