# Pinnacle Souveran or P21s



## Fixxer (Mar 8, 2006)

This has most been beaten to death but having trouble spending 69.00 on the Pinnacle.
I know that they are both good products and each has its own luster results. But which will hold up longer? 
Where is the value in the Pinnacle Souveran ?


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## eric77 (Mar 8, 2006)

depends on the color of your car. Lighter color go p21s for sure. Darker go souveran or if you wanna save some cash get poorboys nattys blue. i have souveran on my car now, used to have nattys on it, and have used p21s on plenty of light cars. Souveran is a little better than nattys imo with regards to shine, depth and beading. I just drove 20 miles in the pouring rain on the freeway, pulled into my garage and the car didn't have a single drop of water on the paint. THat says something about souveran (and 4star upp).


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## Cliff (Apr 19, 2002)

Fixxer said:


> ...but having trouble spending 69.00 on the Pinnacle...


I hear you. They seem to have it on sale periodically for $50, which is merely absurdly expensive instead of ludicrous. I have a virgin jar of it in the detailing supplies cupboard (at the $50 price) and my upcoming spring detail will be the first time I've tried it, so I don't have any product opinions yet. I have been using P21S for about 2-3 years, and I am quite happy with that product.


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## hockeynut (Apr 14, 2002)

Cliff3 said:


> I hear you. They seem to have it on sale periodically for $50, which is merely absurdly expensive instead of ludicrous. I have a virgin jar of it in the detailing supplies cupboard (at the $50 price) and my upcoming spring detail will be the first time I've tried it, so I don't have any product opinions yet. I have been using P21S for about 2-3 years, and I am quite happy with that product.


I've been using Zaino but I too have an unopened Souveran waiting patiently. I hear that it works great on top of Zaino. We shall see...


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## Fixxer (Mar 8, 2006)

My 530 is Orient blue so dark with a deep metalic reflection. I am thinking that the PS would do an excellent job bringing out the luster as a topper on the AIO but even 50 is alot for a topper.
can you suggest the site I might look for it on?


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## Fixxer (Mar 8, 2006)

Eric, how many coats have you got on your car?
Are you quick detailing it after every wash?


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## eric77 (Mar 8, 2006)

Fixxer said:


> Eric, how many coats have you got on your car?
> Are you quick detailing it after every wash?


I just have one coat of four star ultimate paint protection (upp) and one coat of pinnacle souveran. The pic in my sig is with poorboys ex-p and natty's blue. Here are some pics of my car with 4 star and souveran. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136828

I would highly recommend applying a sealant like upp and then topping with a carnauba like souveran or natty's. It would also be a good idea to clay and apply a glaze (i use clearkote rmg) before sealing.


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## Fixxer (Mar 8, 2006)

Will AIO due for sealant?


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## eric77 (Mar 8, 2006)

Fixxer said:


> Will AIO due for sealant?


no. It does seal somewhat, but it is not very effective.


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## fuz (Feb 6, 2002)

AIO works just fine as a sealant. Lasts 2-3 months, easy to apply, pretty good shine, also has a mild polish. 

P21S is a no-nonsense wax that works well--easy to apply, wipe off, genuine carnauba looks, lasts a couple months at the most. Souveran is just a touch deeper looking and applies the same as P21S, but as a 'show wax' it barely stays on the car for a month, or even a couple weeks in the summer heat. There is no justification for souveran--just that it smells like pina colada and looks different when applied to a dark car.


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## Mark_325i (May 1, 2003)

Zaino four times a year. That's it.


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## Fixxer (Mar 8, 2006)

Does the AIO need a lubricator like a quick detailor ( Eagle One Wet Wipe N' Shine )when applied? Holy Cow ! one month...will Crystal Mist improve on that? I have to say I'm really couroius about the Souveran.


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## Fixxer (Mar 8, 2006)

Is there any wait time needed before you apply the topper to AIO? or a wash?


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## eric77 (Mar 8, 2006)

fuz said:


> AIO works just fine as a sealant. Lasts 2-3 months, easy to apply, pretty good shine, also has a mild polish.
> 
> P21S is a no-nonsense wax that works well--easy to apply, wipe off, genuine carnauba looks, lasts a couple months at the most. Souveran is just a touch deeper looking and applies the same as P21S, but as a 'show wax' it barely stays on the car for a month, or even a couple weeks in the summer heat. There is no justification for souveran--just that it smells like pina colada and looks different when applied to a dark car.


I would not recommend using AIO as a sealant. It does seal to some extent, but it will not last very long or protect the paint nearly as well as a true sealant. There is a reason why klasse sells AIO as well as SG, thir sealant. As long as you apply a sealant before waxing, durability of the wax should not be a big concern. Afterall, the wax is mainly for looks. I have used p21s numerous times and honestly on a black car like yours, souveran is much better. If you want a cheaper alternative then get poorboy's nattys blue.


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## eric77 (Mar 8, 2006)

Fixxer said:


> Does the AIO need a lubricator like a quick detailor ( Eagle One Wet Wipe N' Shine )when applied? Holy Cow ! one month...will Crystal Mist improve on that? I have to say I'm really couroius about the Souveran.


AIO should be used like a polish, not a sealant. No qd is needed for application. Just polish it on and wipe off with a microfiber.


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## fuz (Feb 6, 2002)

IMO AIO is not good as a polish, it's just a better-than-nothing cleaner with no abrasives.

Personally I use Mezerna FP as a real polish, and use AIO as... well, an All-In-One. It *is* a true sealant, is not however, a pure sealant. It is a compromise--cleans a bit to leave a more adherent surface, and seals some with an acrylic layer.

AIO's longevity is not really an issue if you're using a carnauba wax that needs to be re-applied every month. AIO in my experience, lasts around 2-3 months in the winter, maybe 4 at the most in the summer. If AIO is all you are using, then either re-apply it every couple months, or add SG on top to have the protection last longer. But really, the paint will accumulate enough crud to want to use AIO again before more than 3 months expire, if you use the car in question as a daily driver.

The difference between P21S and Souveran is mild--you need to be a real cognoscenti to really take notice. In the big scheme of things, $60 isn't much for a wax that will easily last you several years; and it will sate your curiosity once you try it--and you will stop agonizing over a P21S inferiority complex.

At least souveran is arguably worth it, compared to those exotic (and genuinely sub-par) zymol waxes.

And there is no need to apply AIO with a lubricant, just use a lightly wet (like a wrung towel) microfiber cloth or sponge. You'll need far less than an ounce to cover an average car.


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## NH-SHICKS (Nov 3, 2003)

My $.02

AIO = Excellent Chemical Cleaner with not ability to remove swirls, Ideal for perfect paint, and provides a great base for almost anything, not the longest lasting products, but SG is, and it's reflective, but not deep. (Not an abrasive)

P21S/S100 = Very easy to use, great on light colors, durability not so good. Overall a great wax.

Souveran = Dark colors exceptional, durability not bad, easy to use, too expensive. Great for garage queens.

souveran on black

http://autopia.org/gallery/data/500/18990caddysideafter.jpg

Steve


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## Fixxer (Mar 8, 2006)

Yes this is my daily driver, so it does sound like I will be removing everything in a three month periods. I will definately pull the trigger on the souveran as well as the Crystal mist i think which sounds like will increase the protection time some what. I think your right on the 60 bucks. I'll have the can for some time so its worth it.

One last thing...is there a wait time before I can puta topper like souveran on AIO?


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## eric77 (Mar 8, 2006)

fuz said:


> IMO AIO is not good as a polish, it's just a better-than-nothing cleaner with no abrasives.
> 
> Personally I use Mezerna FP as a real polish, and use AIO as... well, an All-In-One. It *is* a true sealant, is not however, a pure sealant. It is a compromise--cleans a bit to leave a more adherent surface, and seals some with an acrylic layer.
> 
> ...


Well said. However, I need to ask: How can you justify purchasing p21s when S100 is identical and sells for half the price? 

I dont use AIO very often, but it does have its uses. Sometimes you just want a chemical cleaner that is quick and easy to use to strip a coat of wax, remove some water spots, etc.

In this instance though, i dont p21s/s100 should even be considered. The original poster has a black car and for black, p21s is put to shame by both souveran and natty's blue.


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## fuz (Feb 6, 2002)

As a wax snob myself, I only tried P21s from a friend...

Before that I had went out and bought Souveran without flinching (computer games cost as much), so I never considered S100 ahaha. 4 years later, I still have my little container.

Truthfully though, P21s or Souveran, it matters less than the polish and glaze. Souveran for me has only made my car look deeper/wetter, but not shinier. It's an _understated_ but impressive look, akin to a subtle business suit. I try not to get people worked up about souveran as they are bound to be disapointed if they are looking for a miracle wax.

For topping AIO/SG it's best to wait 24hrs, or at the very minimum 6 hours, assuming it's not lower than 60F where you're working.

AIO and SG has an interesting effect in that it has a lot of refraction--it's not a very sharp reflection like polymer waxes. Topped with a carnauba, it provides a very wet look not achieved by topping zaino (which doesn't seem to do anything).


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