# DENIED WARRANTY SERVICE - Lawsuit Time



## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

I had an interesting conversation the other day with a driver for my local BMW dealer. I guess he's a mechanic for them, but an older guy, so he drew the short straw and drove the shuttle for me in the absence of a minimum wage wash-boy. He told me about how they don't really get any training for the new models, and have to figure stuff out on their own. They flew out to the factory in Germany for some testing, and the techs there created problems for them to fix. They ended up fixing stuff in record time, in ways the factory guys hadn't thought of, because they had to come up with their own diagnostic methods.

"Replace stuff until the problem goes away" is one way to fix things. I don't have a lot of faith in mechanics that resort to that. Our local Audi dealer did that with a mysterious misfire issue in our Allroad that we have since sold. My independent mechanic said "Oh, yeah, it has plastic parts in the intake plenum that can break off and bounce around in there." If the techs at the Audi dealer had removed the intake plenum, they probably could have eliminated that possibility. But they're in the business to make money, and charging the manufacturer warranty or customer for parts replacement is more lucrative as a diagnostic method. This is part of what I hate about $tealerships.

The fact that they can't replicate the "Problem" is a huge issue. So maybe a test drive with owner in driver seat and tech in passenger seat, and owner pointing and saying "there! you feel that? You hear that?" might help, but I don't think $tealership mechanics are allowed to talk to customers. They might say something impolite.


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

mark_m5 said:


> I had an interesting conversation the other day with a driver for my local BMW dealer. I guess he's a mechanic for them, but an older guy, so he drew the short straw and drove the shuttle for me in the absence of a minimum wage wash-boy. He told me about how they don't really get any training for the new models, and have to figure stuff out on their own. They flew out to the factory in Germany for some testing, and the techs there created problems for them to fix. They ended up fixing stuff in record time, in ways the factory guys hadn't thought of, because they had to come up with their own diagnostic methods.
> 
> "Replace stuff until the problem goes away" is one way to fix things. I don't have a lot of faith in mechanics that resort to that. Our local Audi dealer did that with a mysterious misfire issue in our Allroad that we have since sold. My independent mechanic said "Oh, yeah, it has plastic parts in the intake plenum that can break off and bounce around in there." If the techs at the Audi dealer had removed the intake plenum, they probably could have eliminated that possibility. But they're in the business to make money, and charging the manufacturer warranty or customer for parts replacement is more lucrative as a diagnostic method. This is part of what I hate about $tealerships.
> 
> The fact that they can't replicate the "Problem" is a huge issue. So maybe a test drive with owner in driver seat and tech in passenger seat, and owner pointing and saying "there! you feel that? You hear that?" might help, but I don't think $tealership mechanics are allowed to talk to customers. They might say something impolite.


All good points. I think another problem dealers have is keeping good technicians. Some of the young ones they hire are naturally sharp and talented, gain lots of knowledge and experience in a few years while rising to the top and eventually realize they'll need to become an Indy in order to be paid what they're worth. So this happens and the process begins again.


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## BUYSELLFIL (Aug 6, 2012)

Mark:
Thanks for the great perspective. I think that the more these cars turn into computers if a fault code DOESN'T register the techs raise their hands and say not sure what to do.... I really believe that old school techs are more hands on and will dig in to find a problem but there are few less of them around. The shop foreman will take a ride but it is literally 10 mins if best. They should take a car for 2 or 3 days to drive it with customer approval to try and replicate. 

I was told that the dealerships aren't allowed for loaners to be out over a certain number of days now too. That I would assume is specific to a dealership as they own those cars.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

mark_m5 said:


> I had an interesting conversation the other day with a driver for my local BMW dealer. I guess he's a mechanic for them, but an older guy, so he drew the short straw and drove the shuttle for me in the absence of a minimum wage wash-boy. He told me about how they don't really get any training for the new models, and have to figure stuff out on their own. They flew out to the factory in Germany for some testing, and the techs there created problems for them to fix. They ended up fixing stuff in record time, in ways the factory guys hadn't thought of, because they had to come up with their own diagnostic methods.
> 
> "Replace stuff until the problem goes away" is one way to fix things. I don't have a lot of faith in mechanics that resort to that. Our local Audi dealer did that with a mysterious misfire issue in our Allroad that we have since sold. My independent mechanic said "Oh, yeah, it has plastic parts in the intake plenum that can break off and bounce around in there." If the techs at the Audi dealer had removed the intake plenum, they probably could have eliminated that possibility. But they're in the business to make money, and charging the manufacturer warranty or customer for parts replacement is more lucrative as a diagnostic method. This is part of what I hate about $tealerships.
> 
> The fact that they can't replicate the "Problem" is a huge issue. So maybe a test drive with owner in driver seat and tech in passenger seat, and owner pointing and saying "there! you feel that? You hear that?" might help, but I don't think $tealership mechanics are allowed to talk to customers. They might say something impolite.


First, I believe that all manufacturers provide training on new models or significant changes to the cars. My brother-in-law spent 5-10 days a year at a training center for Subaru. Second, nobody pays for diagnosis any more. No car owner is willing to pay for 2-3 hours at shop rates to just determine the cause of a problem - and then have the repair done. So, yes, many times mechanics just replace parts.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> Mark:
> Thanks for the great perspective. I think that the more these cars turn into computers if a fault code DOESN'T register the techs raise their hands and say not sure what to do.... I really believe that old school techs are more hands on and will dig in to find a problem but there are few less of them around. The shop foreman will take a ride but it is literally 10 mins if best. *They should take a car for 2 or 3 days to drive it with customer approval to try and replicate. *
> 
> I was told that the dealerships aren't allowed for loaners to be out over a certain number of days now too. That I would assume is specific to a dealership as they own those cars.


So imagine they drive your car for several days and can't replicate the problem? Would you be willing to pay several hundred dollars for this?


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

southcoastguy said:


> First, I believe that all manufacturers provide training on new models or significant changes to the cars. My brother-in-law spent 5-10 days a year at a training center for Subaru. Second, nobody pays for diagnosis any more. No car owner is willing to pay for 2-3 hours at shop rates to just determine the cause of a problem - and then have the repair done. So, yes, many times mechanics just replace parts.


Actually, dealerships do charge for diagnosis. I just take my business to my favorite indy and he'll diagnose for free.

Edit: This isn't just BMW and Audi in my experience. A few cars back, I owned a Nissan Maxima. The Nissan dealer wanted $95/hour to diagnose an electrical problem, with no estimate on how many hours it would take. I spent a few bucks to get the shop manual and a few weeks in my garage, finally found a corroded wire at a low point in a bend in a wiring harness. Spliced, and good as new. With the "just replace parts" philosophy, that would have been a nightmare that never fixed the problem.


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## BUYSELLFIL (Aug 6, 2012)

You ever gone to the Dr and they say not sure why you have that pain or discomfort? Warranty allows for issues that the operator feels are issues to be made present. South I hope you break down on the road after a service. I await your posts to tap into you.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

$39k for an A/C evaporator replacement which didn't need to be replaced? Yikes! :yikes:


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## BUYSELLFIL (Aug 6, 2012)

The dealership was audited and the overall fine for them was $39k. That was NOT for my car. They were scolded by BMW and they did pay my claim but were told they were lucky. 

I already clarified this.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

I think the going price if you Google that part is less than $100. There's a post that comes up in that Google search where someone on another forum is complaining that dealer wanted $4k to replace it. $3900 would be in the same order of magnitude. $39000 to replace any part on the car, even the whole engine compartment, is blatantly ridiculous.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> The dealership was audited and the overall fine for them was $39k. That was NOT for my car. They were scolded by BMW and they did pay my claim but were told they were lucky.
> 
> I already clarified this.


That makes a lot more sense - and maybe other dealers are afraid of getting penalized now too.:dunno:


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

I am going to continue playing this game, because it is fun.

1. The only diagnosed and verified issue with your car stems from the SES light. The repair was covered under warranty.

2. You have several intermittent issues which the dealership could not verify and diagnose. Seems to me that if you are biding your time to until the pull ahead program kicks in, those intermittent issues aren't real issues. They aren't going to affect your wear and tear costs or needing repair before turn in, since they aren't issues according to the dealership since they can't diagnose and verify them.

3. On your most recent receipt that fixed the SES issue, you did not have the dealership check out any of the issues you said were dangerous and intermittent, because they aren't listed...well, the car shaking like crazy was addressed evidently by the SES repair. Seems odd that you argued to BMW NA and on this forum how dangerous those issues are to your safety, but you didn't find it necessary to have the dealership check them out when they did the SES repair? So, why are you mentioning on this forum issues which weren't listed with the dealership?:
"1-The brakes have been replaced but only the back right squeals like a slaughtered pig at low speed stopping.
2-Car sounds like it has a belt issue at low RPM's in the dash when the start/stop disengages and the car turns back on.
3-The right side of the windshield ices up on cold winter days and the BMW blades do not clear it. New blades have not worked and this is documented by many others."

4. Again, the dealership actually performed a repair which you requested based on the SIB (perhaps at your direction?), even though they could not replicate the whistling issue nor attribute it to the evaporator. Since you didn't have to pay for the evaporator and since the whistling still exists, it is obviously not the evaporator. So, why are you continuing to argue that it's the evaporator and wanting to have a 2nd dealership review the work of the 1st dealership, when it isn't the evaporator? The whistling still remains. So, from what you've stated, the 2nd dealership will not do a free diagnosis of the evaporator. Seems to me that is exactly right. You are asking them to review work which was already performed that wasn't the basis for the original issue. There is nothing wrong with the evaporator, so I simply don't get your logic and argument.

5. You have/had like 300 miles remaining on the warranty. I presume that has ended? Even before the warranty expired, from what you stated the dealership would still perform warranty repairs on any other warranty covered items other than the evaporator. So, I don't understand the problem or the argument BMW NA and the dealership are breaking a contract. The only one wanting to brake a contract seems to be you, by wanting to turn the car in early, not having to pay disposition fee or excess mile fees.

6. I understand your concerns about the warranty expiring and you having 11 months remaining on your lease. I understand that even though you admitted back in 2015, "I always have miles issues.", but you still chose to get into a lease anyway and are now facing fees for over mileage and don't want to have to pay anything to turn in your car now.

7. So, let's get rid of all the chaff in your two threads: "Have a huge issue and need suggestions. 2015 X5 35d MSport " and this one.

a. You making ad hominem attacks like "dingleberry" against BMW NA CSR Alison G doesn't resolve the issue and doesn't actually add anything to your argument, except perhaps make you and some other folks feel happy about themselves.

b. You make ad hominem attacks against BMW of Stratham, basing your assessment on the whistling issue you are trying to force them to hear which they don't hear within 300 miles of your warranty expiration, even though that won't impact your lease return since it's not a problem they identified. You then add "look at their Yelp review..." Yet, you seemed to have found them perfectly acceptable here and by referring them here, among other posts you have made praising BMW of Stratham. So, all the praise comes down to one issue that cannot be verified or diagnosed within 300 miles of your warranty expiration.

c. You added additional chaff like BMW of Stratham was audited and fined $39k for filing warranty claims for work they submitted for warranty reimbursement but was ultimately rejected after the audit. This doesn't impact your issue or your argument. Frankly, I don't see how this is a negative on BMW of Stratham, either. In your case, they replaced the evaporator, eating the cost of the repair and did not charge you back for the repair costs. Seems to me the dealership got the $39k combined fine and rejected warranty claims amount, because they were trying to make their customers happy or as you wrote, "customer satisfaction". How is it a bad thing, if a dealership doesn't charge the customer and has to eat a rejected warranty claim the dealership files? The only negative is that the dealership might tighten up its "customer satisfaction" repairs and/or get approval from BMW first before doing the work. Then people will complain that they didn't cover something under warranty that joe blow thinks should be covered.

8. Your whistling sound issue: you've had the whistling sound since before 04/10/2015. You also have stated the whistling sound is louder when you take the foot off the accelerator, or at least that is what is listed here







. So, you didn't write if the whistling sound occurs when the climate control is on, off, or both, no matter how fast you are going, etc. I presume you noticed the whistling sound more when you let off the accelerator since the car is making less noise so you are able to hear the whistling sound. Odd you didn't raise the whistling sound again after the car was in the shop for the a/c until two years later.

So, I have a theory about the whistling sound, but will wait until you provide the answers i asked in item #8.. Well, this was long.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> You ever gone to the Dr and they say not sure why you have that pain or discomfort? Warranty allows for issues that the operator feels are issues to be made present. South I hope you break down on the road after a service. I await your posts to tap into you.


Do you go to see the Dr and expect not to pay for a diagnostic evaluation? Do you go to the Dr. expecting your insurance company to pay for a medical treatment which is not included in your insurance plan? Actually, you are very wrong about the warranty. The warranty does not allow for issues the operator feels are issues: the warranty covers issues that are actually verified and diagnosed and fall within the warranty terms.


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## BUYSELLFIL (Aug 6, 2012)

You have way too much time on your hands and your assessments are somewhat in the correct realm but not an A. Maybe a B-. I traded positive reviews for discounts on cars. It is the nature of the industry. Same way dealerships have services that they pay fools money to write fake reviews to bury the bad ones and raise the average. 

BMW603 and I are customers on the same Salesman and our cars were on the same truck. I will not reveal info about him but the mileage comment is a standing joke. 

#8 - Air is always on AUTO. Not Sync'd. When the start/stop kicks back on at a light is typically when you hear the noise. Front center/right of dash. Girlfriend says it sounds like a train in the distance. Faint and low decibels. The sound has changed since the work was done. Now we hear it under the car on the right hand side. 

The legal matter pertains to ALL my concerns are reported to the dealership but they don't document them unless they have a fix. Classic way to make the manufacturer think you are batting close to 100%.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> You have way too much time on your hands and your assessments are somewhat in the correct realm but not an A. Maybe a B-. I traded positive reviews for discounts on cars. It is the nature of the industry. Same way dealerships have services that they pay fools money to write fake reviews to bury the bad ones and raise the average.
> 
> BMW603 and I are customers on the same Salesman and our cars were on the same truck. I will not reveal info about him but the mileage comment is a standing joke.
> 
> ...


1. The only thing you've refuted or clarified was the $39k total fine, not the cost of your evaporator repair.
2. So, you consciously made an adult quid pro quo decision to trade "...positive reviews for discounts on cars". This directly contradicts "I have been pressured to write positive reviews or denied service". Now, I may say that your one post referencing a salesperson at BMW of Stratham might be what you are talking about, but the other posts clearly are non quid pro quo reviews.
3. So, the thing with interwebs is that it might be a running joke, but the fact that you made the comment and are now seeking to get out of a lease early with overage miles without paying anything and stacking up some unverified complaint history within the waning period of your warranty, does not seem wise if you are trying to convince the dealership, BMW NA, or in a lawsuit.
4. So, does the whistling happen when you are moving or stopped?
5. I don't know how they don't document them. Seems to me every time I've brought my vehicle in for something and they can't replicate they still give me a receipt specifying the the complaint and diagnostics performed. If they can't replicate it is listed. Bat me silly, but I keep all of those.


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## Wgosma (Sep 28, 2009)

OP: have you documented your concerns in writing and provided same to management at BMW NA? I would think a little research would get you the name/title of a manager(s) at a higher level than Allison. Maybe I missed this and you've already done so? Seems moving up the management chain a logical step prior to going with an attorney.

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## BUYSELLFIL (Aug 6, 2012)

Have not written to BMW NA as of the present time. I dropped my order so that someone else could have the build and have been very interested in the Range Rover Sport HSE diesel. Working on finalizing the deal on that order.


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> ... I traded positive reviews for discounts on cars. It is the nature of the industry. Same way dealerships have services that they pay fools money to write fake reviews to bury the bad ones and raise the average.


Aren't fake reviews part of the problem? Potential new customers scrolling through dealer reviews trying to find a reputable dealership and hush money has been paid to influence their decision. Because "everybody does it" or "it's the nature of the business" doesn't make it right. If we can be bought it hurts us also in the end.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

mark_m5 said:


> Actually, dealerships do charge for diagnosis. I just take my business to my favorite indy and he'll diagnose for free.
> 
> Edit: This isn't just BMW and Audi in my experience. A few cars back, I owned a Nissan Maxima. The Nissan dealer wanted $95/hour to diagnose an electrical problem, with no estimate on how many hours it would take. I spent a few bucks to get the shop manual and a few weeks in my garage, finally found a corroded wire at a low point in a bend in a wiring harness. Spliced, and good as new. With the "just replace parts" philosophy, that would have been a nightmare that never fixed the problem.


You are right; dealers (and other shops) DO charge for diagnoses. Most customers aren't willing to pay for them. They think that mechanics working on incredibly-complicated cars should easily determine the cause of any problem and fix it. Some car owners buy code readers so they can hook into the OBD port and read errors.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

The ONLY review that I attend to is that of a trusted acquaintance by word-of-mouth. ALL on-line reviews are LIES and paid for.

Believe nothing heard or read without verifying it oneself, unless it is congruent with ones Weltanschauung.


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## Wgosma (Sep 28, 2009)

Doug: word of mouth from trusted source is clearly the best info; I disagree with your statement that ALL online reviews are either false and/or paid. 
I have used online reviews with some success by contacting the reviewer to verify their statements. This is of course not always possible to do and not 100% reliable even if one receives a reply as one typically does not have a personal connection to the reviewer. 
With online reviews one must always be a bit wary-but I have found they can be of value at times. 
(I have a handful of reviews I've posted on a couple of popular sites....nobody has paid me to post them and as far as my aging mind can recall the info posted is an 'honest' appraisial of the product or sevice, tho that IS a matter of opinion)
Thanks/Bill

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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> Have not written to BMW NA as of the present time. I dropped my order so that someone else could have the build and have been very interested in the Range Rover Sport HSE diesel. Working on finalizing the deal on that order.


Interesting that when i went off in a huff from the BMW dealership some years ago because the dealership felt the need to still lend out the car i was purchasing for test drives while i went to get my bank check, i bought a range rover...the single worst decision i made since the engine blew up within 500miles after warranty expired.

Considering it is the first RR diesel for US market, I would not be a first time adopter. BMW's first diesel foray for US market in decades with the 335d was not good. It's too early i think to pass judgment on RR diesel since it is fairly new, but i would want to see what issues pop up on the ones running around with closer to 40k miles.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

southcoastguy said:


> Some car owners buy code readers so they can hook into the OBD port and read errors.


I think every car owner should have an OBD2 code reader, and have some basic knowledge about how a vehicle works, considering how much we depend on them.


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## ctdw (Sep 17, 2012)

If you want a more trouble free ownership...I would not go with a LandRover. I have owned four over the years and three of them were problematic and the service was not great.


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## Wgosma (Sep 28, 2009)

Mark_M5: .....if we could get the motoring public to crack open their owners manual that would be a huge step in the right direction. Might be advisable to buy a blood pressure cup as a companion to the OBD code reader 

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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Wgosma said:


> Mark_M5: .....if we could get the motoring public to crack open their owners manual that would be a huge step in the right direction.


Amen, brother. That too.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

mark_m5 said:


> I think every car owner should have an OBD2 code reader, *and have some basic knowledge about how a vehicle works,* considering how much we depend on them.


Yes, that would be good. I used to drive a VW diesel and the postings on that forum were amazing. Dumping oil in the fuel tank to improve performance; allowing the engine to run for 10 minutes to warm up before driving, spending $1,000 for a software tune (on a 20K car), coasting in neutral to improve fuel economy, etc.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Wgosma said:


> Mark_M5: .....if we could get the motoring public to crack open their owners manual that would be a huge step in the right direction. Might be advisable to buy a blood pressure cup as a companion to the OBD code reader


In this day and age of computerized cars, why separate the OBD display from the default dashboard display.

Hmm, a blood pressure cup[sic] for blood-letting the excessive pressure?

I came to BMW from VW TDI, a Jetta, for my wife's perception of a larger safer vehicle, so looked at the Tourag of a neighbor. The owners manual is on DVD and 1200 pages equivalent.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Doug Huffman said:


> ... looked at the Tourag of a neighbor. The owners manual is on DVD and 1200 pages equivalent.


:yikes:

Ignore the small print. There's nothing useful in there about how it passes smog or anything...


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## Wgosma (Sep 28, 2009)

1200 pages is definitely off-putting, yikes!

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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Wgosma said:


> 1200 pages is definitely off-putting, yikes!


I have not summed up the pages of technical descriptions in LPCapital's G00gle Drive file, but there are about fifty titles and more than one are over 100 pages long. I have read each and all of those titles at least once, the electrically related ones many times, and the interesting ones more than once.

We contracted for our CPO within 24 hours of deciding to replace the VW and shortly finding it nearby (four hours from home). We were driving the vacation laden VW and not in a position to take possession of the X5 at that moment. I requested and got the owners manual a week before we returned to take possession of the X5. In that week I closely read the OM twice, with highlights and a list of questions for the Genius. And I did exhaust the Genius' knowledge, but which he answered in later communications. We had an extended pleasant and informative correspondence.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

so, my theories on the whistling.

1. If your climate control is always on in auto, the whistling would still exist if it was the a/c system since even in auto stop/start when stopped, the ventilation still pumps out some air. Plus, they replaced everything and the issue still remains. Maybe one of the ducts and/or flaps inside the duct might be causing whistling, but I'm going to say it has nothing to do with your climate system.
2. noise attenuator (11658513672) off the charge air line
3. crankcase ventilation system
4. belt tension pulley
5. if happening while moving, your windshield since the sound started around the time you got it replaced...might explain the windshield cleaning issue, too.


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## Grubrunner (Jul 13, 2015)

Can someone be kind enough to [briefly] summarize what the basis of the vehicle [VIN] being flagged is please....? I've skimmed all three pages and I'm still a little bewildered as to WTF is going on here....

I've never experienced or heard of an OEM warranty claim being denied for any reason and/or [especially] a vehicle VIN being flagged by corporate.... not personally [I just this week purchased car number twenty & twenty-one in just under thirty years of driving] or anyone I know.

I'm not saying you're whistling dixie, I've just never experienced it or heard of it.

Your claim of getting a sour apple at BMW NA is something I've heard at least one-half dozen times. I've had nothing but pleasant and astute representatives the [very] few times I've called, but I know of personally many who whistle the same tune as you.


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## Wgosma (Sep 28, 2009)

....we may never clearly understand the details of what transpired here; I believe OP is off shopping or driving his newly leased Range Rover-

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## dbs600 (Apr 29, 2010)

Any updates on this?


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## BUYSELLFIL (Aug 6, 2012)

Car was sold.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> Car was sold.


lucky buyer


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> Car was sold.





need4speed said:


> lucky buyer


This is probably the state of many used BMWs put up for sale out there. I am glad to see inexperienced prospective buyers for used BMWs join up here and ask questions first. Just wish more knew to really do your homework first if you don't know these cars and you want to buy a used one with no warranty.


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## jinda (Oct 19, 2010)

BUYSELLFIL said:


> Car was sold.


So what new car did you end up getting?
How do you sell a car on lease?


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## BUYSELLFIL (Aug 6, 2012)

You can go to a place and ask how much they are willing to buy the car for. Then you take the agreed amount and cut a check for the difference to BFS, if there is one. Difference is the payoff balance which adjusts each month you make a payment. 


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