# Long cranks...engine malfunction decreased power light...



## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

For the last week or so I've noticed slightly longer cranks when starting the car. Sometimes it would fire right up and other times take a few seconds. I started wondering about HPFP failure, since that seems to be the early symptom for 335i owners. And then this morning I got the engine malfunction: decreased power indicator on the way to work... I didn't notice any drop in power, however, since I was going 30-40 mph in town on my way to the BMW dealership. Anyone have any similar problems? Am I the first 335d to have HPFP failure (if that is in fact what it is)?


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## TXPearl (Apr 16, 2010)

I noticed something similar on my last tank of fuel - longer cranks (not much, but it usually fires up instantly), and sluggish performance. Since I've refueled, the issues appear to have gone away. I will continue to monitor, but right now, I'm attributing it to fuel quality.

One thing to mention, I have the JBD chip. Don't know how that might affect sensitivity to fuel quality.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

ON e90 forums 1 owner got engine malfunction reduced pwer and it was something to do with EGR system. Or may it be its just bad fuel like TXPearl mentioned.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

No word back from dealership. Person I spoke to on the phone a few minutes ago said it might be the "hpfp sensor" and not the seal itself... Anyway, they are running diagnostics.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

bimmerdiesel said:


> ON e90 forums 1 owner got engine malfunction reduced pwer and it was something to do with EGR system. Or may it be its just bad fuel like TXPearl mentioned.


I suspect it will be something other than the HPFP. Probably emission system related if not due to bad fuel.

OP - please post the outcome.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

Unfortunately, it is officially a failure of the high pressure fuel pump sensor. They had to keep the car overnight to wait on shipment of the part. I should get it back later today. I've had the car since February and only have a little over 6,200 miles on it. Other than this, I have had zero problems. I hope that the long cranks some others are experiencing are indeed gas-related.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Good news that it's a sensor and not the pump itself. USLD doesn't have the formualtion inconsistencies like that of gasoline so there should never be a failure of the seals.


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## TXPearl (Apr 16, 2010)

Neutrinolad - can you elaborate on the long cranks? How long were they?


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## bayarea2007 (May 20, 2010)

I had long cranks one only once and it would not start at all. The Nav display showed "Engine Failure". I had to wait a minute or so, then it started again but "check engine" light stayed on for a few days. Dealer's checked showed NOx sensor fault code 4955 and CN fault CF33. They didn't have explanation as for what might have caused it. So they just reset the code. It's been fine since then. Mine is 09 model with 16000 miles.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

Not so fast my friends...just got a call from the dealership. They replaced the sensor but when they took it for a test drive the warning light came on again...newest hypothesis is that it might be a problem with a pump in the tank...at least that is what the person I talked to told me. They are going to let it cool down and then run more diagnostics on it. So it may not be the HPFP after all...maybe. I won't get the car back today in any case. Bummer.

When I was deciding on which car to buy, my reading of the HPFP issue with the 335i was that it was due to the ethanol content in USA gas eating through some sort of rubber ring in the HPFP system...which I thought wouldn't apply to diesel cars. So having something that seemed like that problem with the 335d surprised both me and my local dealership. 

About the long cranks: until a week or so ago when they started, the car would start immediately when pushing the start button. When they started to occur, the car would often, but not always, take anywhere from 3-5 seconds to start. When warm, however, it seemed to start more like before, although perhaps not quite as fast.

I'll report back tomorrow when (cross your fingers) it's fixed.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Neutrinolad said:


> Not so fast my friends...just got a call from the dealership. They replaced the sensor but when they took it for a test drive the warning light came on again...newest hypothesis is that it might be a problem with a pump in the tank...at least that is what the person I talked to told me. They are going to let it cool down and then run more diagnostics on it. So it may not be the HPFP after all...maybe. I won't get the car back today in any case. Bummer.
> 
> When I was deciding on which car to buy, my reading of the HPFP issue with the 335i was that it was due to the ethanol content in USA gas eating through some sort of rubber ring in the HPFP system...which I thought wouldn't apply to diesel cars. So having something that seemed like that problem with the 335d surprised both me and my local dealership.
> 
> ...


Curiouser and curiouser. It is possible the fuel filter is clogged.... Especially if the other hardware/software items are ruled out.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

anE934fun said:


> Curiouser and curiouser. It is possible the fuel filter is clogged.... Especially if the other hardware/software items are ruled out.


The plot thickens.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

anE934fun said:


> ...It is possible the fuel filter is clogged.... Especially if the other hardware/software items are ruled out.


if the dealership didn't check this out first, then they aren't qualified to work on the car...


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm no car engineer, but I'll mention this to them tomorrow morning.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

The symptoms sound a lot like someone elses who had a clogged fuel filter.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> The symptoms sound a lot like someone elses who had a clogged fuel filter.


Which is why I am thinking a clogged fuel filter....


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

d geek said:


> if the dealership didn't check this out first, then they aren't qualified to work on the car...


Well, that is a separate matter. Sometimes you get so caught up with the diagnostic computers, that you become a slave to them. Forrest for the trees and whatnot.

If the diagnostic tests come up empty, then for $20-ish, it would be time to replace the fuel filter.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

d geek said:


> if the dealership didn't check this out first, then they aren't qualified to work on the car...


IIRC there are 2 filters. One in the fuel tank and then one outside somewhere along the driver side of the car. Checking the one in the fuel tank (where fuel pump is located) is a complete PITA, and I wouldn't expect them to tear out the back seats to check that first.

IJS.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Nice write with photos on on fuel filter change Link 
Not suggesting OP should do it but I think it's useful. :thumbup:


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Neutrinolad, did the dealer determine the source of the problem?


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

Not yet. Long wait. Apparently it's not the HPFP, but they don't know what it is... The mechanic is having to contact some BMW diesel expert in New Jersey for help. I'll report back with the final story.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Neutrinolad said:


> Not yet. Long wait. Apparently it's not the HPFP, but they don't know what it is... The mechanic is having to contact some BMW diesel expert in New Jersey for help. I'll report back with the final story.


Clogged fuel filter? Looking more likely with each passing iteration on troubleshooting....


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Sure would be really sad if the guru from new jersey had to get called up for advice and turned out to be the fuel filter.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

Lol. I called them a few minutes ago and someone in the service department said, "I think they are going to check the fuel filter next."


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Neutrinolad said:


> Lol. I called them a few minutes ago and someone in the service department said, "I think they are going to check the fuel filter next."


UGH...BMW needs to be more forthcoming with their repair instructions. From what I've read in BIMMER and ROUNDEL, BMWNA has an iron grip on repair procedures where the technicians basically read codes to someone in NJ and it's those in NJ who have the troubleshooting guide. (Warranty repairs can't be done willynilly so a tech won't throw parts at a problem).


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

If that is true then basically the "grunt" at the dealership need only be able to turn a wrench and know how to read instructions? Sounds a lot like the "grunts" I had to deal with at the Honda dealerships a few years ago.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Neutrinolad said:


> Lol. I called them a few minutes ago and someone in the service department said, "*I think they are going to check the fuel filter next.*"


Ha! I hope the solution to the problem is a new fuel filter.... It basically affirms (re-affirms?) the fundamental soundness of the fuel system in the presence of clean fuel. There is a separate question about why the fuel filter wasn't replaced first, but I guess BMW NA has its diagnostic procedures (although I bet more $ has been burned diagnosing than if a new fuel filter had been put on the car in the first place...). Oh well.

I really hope it is the fuel filter. But then the OP has to give some thought to where they fill their car up. :angel:

EDIT: One more item if it is the fuel filter - the tank may have a bunch of crap in it. It may be necessary to drain the tank and fill with fresh, clean fuel.... That expense should be covered by the service station that sold the contaminated fuel.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

anE934fun said:


> That expense should be covered by the service station that sold the contaminated fuel.


This is sometimes easier said than done. If the station were a company(for example it has a Exxon sign and is in fact owned by Exxon) owned store then it tends to be easier but most stations are individually owned and then tends to be harder. I have been through this more than once, I recall getting payed for two of them. I actually fought to my success with the corporate entity even though they did not own the station, my argument more or less was based around their name is on the store.

After having it happen a few times, I do not think it always can boil down to something so simple as watching where you fill up. The most damaging of my experiences were at name brand stations that were rather new facilities. It was just crap luck on my part more than anything else.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> *This is sometimes easier said than done.* If the station were a company(for example it has a Exxon sign and is in fact owned by Exxon) owned store then it tends to be easier but most stations are individually owned and then tends to be harder. I have been through this more than once, I recall getting payed for two of them. I actually fought to my success with the corporate entity even though they did not own the station, my argument more or less was based around their name is on the store.
> 
> After having it happen a few times, I do not think it always can boil down to something so simple as watching where you fill up. The most damaging of my experiences were at name brand stations that were rather new facilities. It was just crap luck on my part more than anything else.


It shouldn't be. In my neck of the woods, the service station is required to carry insurance to have the tanks removed if the tank starts to leak. The insurance policy would be hit for the cost of the contaminated fuel repairs. Worst case, the Comprehensive coverage on the auto insurance policy covers the cost of the repairs and then the auto insurance company goes after the service station owner/insurance policy. The only obligation for the owner is to be able to prove where they purchased the contaminated fuel. If they have been purchasing their fuel from the same station and have the receipts, the 'proof' generally becomes a non-issue.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

But of course your neck of the woods is not like all the other forests out there. I have had this happen to me a number of times. First time was on my old green 928 and it was a non issue to get payment and probably was the most expensive time. The next two times were on my truck, I could have tried taking it to court to fight for a payment but I'd ended up spending more fighting than it cost me to pay a shop to fix it each time. The last time it happened was in my old blue Bug and that time turned into a fight but ultimately did get payment out of it.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> But of course your neck of the woods is not like all the other forests out there. I have had this happen to me a number of times. First time was on my old green 928 and it was a non issue to get payment and probably was the most expensive time. The next two times were on my truck, I could have tried taking it to court to fight for a payment but I'd ended up spending more fighting than it cost me to pay a shop to fix it each time. The last time it happened was in my old blue Bug and that time turned into a fight but ultimately did get payment out of it.


Out of curiosity, did you try to get your auto insurance policy to cover the repair expense under the Comprehensive coverage? I have two friends who live in Arizona and Oregon who had contaminated fuel and the Comprehensive coverage was used to fund the repairs to their cars. They had to pay the deductible amount, but ultimately got that back via subrogation.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> If that is true then basically the "grunt" at the dealership need only be able to turn a wrench and know how to read instructions? Sounds a lot like the "grunts" I had to deal with at the Honda dealerships a few years ago.


IIRC it has something to do with BMW and what they feel is proprietary(SP?) information. Of course they're not the only ones, and there's a bill going through Congress which would essentially require the car companies to release this information.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I avoid using insurance for anything if at all possible. I go as far as if I get in a wreck that is obviously my fault and I can talk the person into it then I will pay for their damages and rent car out of pocket over getting a police report done and dealing with the insurance companies. Every time I have had to use insurance for something, be it my fault or someone elses, the end result has typically resulted in my rates going up. For example I had Allstate flat out tell me that if I claimed when an 18 wheeler hit my truck and ran(a whopping $900 worth of damage), that my rates would go up and not because I had anything at fault on my record but because 1-2 years prior someone ran a red light and hit my old Accord and that guys insurance paid for all damages then. So no, I did not involve insurance any time for bad fueling experiences, it is not worth the risk of rates going up and staying that way for a few years.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> IIRC it has something to do with BMW and what they feel is proprietary(SP?) information. Of course they're not the only ones, and there's a bill going through Congress which would essentially require the car companies to release this information.


In the long run I could see that being a good thing. I think part of what allows for quality service for repairs is having people experienced with the merchandise and access to all the available information about it. My experience with Honda was more or less that the guys were just following a computer screen, they typed in the symptom and then followed what the computer said. None of them ever seemed to have any real skills at diagnosing something, it felt like I was dealing with outsourced IT tech support. My first BMW dealer experience I have a feeling was much the same sort of situation, second one seems far better than the first.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> I avoid using insurance for anything if at all possible. I go as far as if I get in a wreck that is obviously my fault and I can talk the person into it then I will pay for their damages and rent car out of pocket over getting a police report done and dealing with the insurance companies. Every time I have had to use insurance for something, be it my fault or someone elses, the end result has typically resulted in my rates going up. For example I had Allstate flat out tell me that if I claimed when an 18 wheeler hit my truck and ran(a whopping $900 worth of damage), that my rates would go up and not because I had anything at fault on my record but because 1-2 years prior someone ran a red light and hit my old Accord and that guys insurance paid for all damages then. So no, *I did not involve insurance any time for bad fueling experiences, it is not worth the risk of rates going up and staying that way for a few years*.


Wow. I hope there are other reasons to live in Texas. The business climate sure seems to be anit-consumer there. If an insurer tried to pull the stunt with telling me they would raise my rates over an accident that was not my fault, the California insurance commissioner would roll back the insurance company's rates. State Farm tried a variation on that theme (by compelling use of non-factory replacement sheetmetal) and got hammered.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Their excuse had something to do with being considered a higher risk. But this is the same company that claimed my wind insurance did not cover my wind damages during a hurricane because the wind carried water. That I got a lawyer for and they got no where, paid damages out of pocket and that is when I finally wiser up and switched companies.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> *Their excuse had something to do with being considered a higher risk*. But this is the same company that claimed my wind insurance did not cover my wind damages during a hurricane because the wind carried water. That I got a lawyer for and they got no where, paid damages out of pocket and that is when I finally wiser up and switched companies.


It would seem they make the bullsh*t excuse because they can do it with impunity. State Farm is so gunshy about getting tagged again for refusing to pay for factory body parts in California that when my ex-E93 was involved in an intimate encounter with one of the signs that political campaigns like to put in the front yards, the State Farm adjuster came out and inspected the car to the point of requiring it to be put on a lift and raised so he could inspect the underside of the car. Sure enough, there was an additional panel that got pierced by the lawn sign that had the adjuster not found it, no one would have been the wiser (least of all me). The additional panel was replaced for a further cost of ~$200. I am not complaining; but as a result of trying to screw California policyholders, State Farm got hammered (and couldn't recover the judgement through higher premiums) and now they are being extra careful to avoid getting dragged into court again.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> Their excuse had something to do with being considered a higher risk. But this is the same company that claimed my wind insurance did not cover my wind damages during a hurricane because the wind carried water. That I got a lawyer for and they got no where, paid damages out of pocket and that is when I finally wiser up and switched companies.


If your claim was flood related than this is the first I've heard where an insurer paid a claim when the homeowner didn't have flood insurance.


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## TXPearl (Apr 16, 2010)

anE934fun said:


> Wow. I hope there are other reasons to live in Texas.


There are - like a sound economy, and a solvent state government.

I wouldn't draw too many conclusion from one guy on a forum complaining about his insurance settlement (or lack thereof).

Snipe, you did the right thing - exercise your right as a consumer and switch companies.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

TXPearl said:


> There are - like a sound economy, and *a solvent state government.*
> 
> I wouldn't draw too many conclusion from one guy on a forum complaining about his insurance settlement (or lack thereof).
> 
> Snipe, you did the right thing - exercise your right as a consumer and switch companies.


If Texas had a requirement for a 2/3s majority in both houses to pass a budget, I doubt it would have a solvent state government either, but that is another matter.


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## VLS_GUY (Oct 7, 2010)

Ah but Neutrino lad's HPFP did fail; likley as the result of bad fuel. Check his posts and see that more than the HPFP is going to be replaced. The possible reason you haven' t heard of these failures here is due to a small diesel population. I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

If there are failures then I'd imagine the much larger euro based 335d population would have been crying about it by now since they have also had the cars longer than the stateside folks. But of course people could be paranoid and think the dealer purposely contaminated the fuel in those cups.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

VLS_GUY said:


> Ah but Neutrino lad's HPFP did fail; likley as the result of bad fuel. Check his posts and see that more than the HPFP is going to be replaced. The possible reason you haven' t heard of these failures here is due to a small diesel population. I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt.


*Any* HPFP will fail if contaminated diesel is introduced into the system. The VW failures are not an issue of contaminated fuel, and if you are as versed in VW as you claim, you already know that.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> If there are failures then I'd imagine the much larger euro based 335d population would have been crying about it by now since they have also had the cars longer than the stateside folks...


except that Europe has much more stringent fuel lubricity requirements than we do here


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Then I guess we should just live in constant fear.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> Then I guess we should just live in constant fear.


heck no! just use a lubricity additive and enjoy your car


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

No thanks.


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## VLS_GUY (Oct 7, 2010)

I am not trying to knock the 535d, BMW or anything or anybody else by posting this bad news. It is absolutely true that North American Diesel fuel lacks the lubricity of that sold in Europe. This may mean that the Bosch HPFP sold as part of the CR systems does not play well with our fuel. This means either the pump, the fuel or both may have to change to solve this problem. The use of biodiesel or additives may take care of this problem time, will tell. TDIClub has information on biodiesel blends and additives and how they impact lubricity on HPFPs. 
Lastly, laboratory fuel testing immediately after you have problems may allow you to have the fuel supplier pay for the repair since you have traceable expert evidence that a problem exists, not because you fear the dealer voiding your warranty.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Out of all the people on here with these cars and the SUV(which I bet has the same fueling system) one person has had a failure and the pictures of the fuel make it pretty obvious it had crud in it. Then the other BMW forum people keep tossing links to randomly appears to have zero failures. I think with three years of probably an unchanged system and the only failure(seen online at least) shows crud in the fuel is probably a good sign things will last well enough, but certainly is not a sign of any more than bad luck and contaminated fuel. But I suppose people could over analyze it because some other vehicle has a problem with it's system and we all know the fuel here v. Europe sucks. I personally see additives as mostly just snake oils, perhaps it is because my wife for a number of years work in their additives division and did testing of competitors products amongst their own. 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> Out of all the people on here with these cars and the SUV(which I bet has the same fueling system) one person has had a failure and the pictures of the fuel make it pretty obvious it had crud in it. Then the other BMW forum people keep tossing links to randomly appears to have zero failures. I think with three years of probably an unchanged system and the only failure(seen online at least) shows crud in the fuel is probably a good sign things will last well enough, but certainly is not a sign of any more than bad luck and contaminated fuel. But I suppose people could over analyze it because some other vehicle has a problem with it's system and we all know the fuel here v. Europe sucks. I personally see additives as mostly just snake oils, perhaps it is because my wife for a number of years work in their additives division and did testing of competitors products amongst their own.
> 
> If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


too late to fix when it's already broke .

Although there are some snake oils, there are also proven additives. Remember that lubricity is measured in how much wear a particular fuel causes. US fuel is allowed to wear the components up to 20% more than the maximum allowed by Euro fuel. Accumulated wear has to have an impact on the longevity of the pump and other FI components.

If I still had access to it, I'd use 2-5% biodiesel for my additive.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

They sell partial biodiesel at pumps in New Braunsfels, they don't there in San Antonio?

Sometimes additives address one thing and have some negative effectives. I am not going to try and sell someone on not using them just like someone would never sell me on using them.

I highly doubt the quality of refined fuel here in the states had one single bit to do with the damage the OP got.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

VLS_GUY said:


> Ah but Neutrino lad's HPFP did fail; likley as the result of bad fuel. Check his posts and see that more than the HPFP is going to be replaced. The possible reason you haven' t heard of these failures here is due to a small diesel population. I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt.


It was DIRTY fuel, not bad fuel. Lubricity additive can't do anything for dirt in your fuel pump. Red Herring!!!


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Snipe656 said:


> I personally see additives as mostly just snake oils, perhaps it is because my wife for a number of years work in their additives division and did testing of competitors products amongst their own.


Snipe, read the following report: http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

Additives are not necessarily snake oil; ULSD diesel has additives added to it at the terminals, otherwise it cannot meet U.S. specs (pitiful as they are). The topic of additives is a can of worms, but not all of them are snake oil.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I meant ones you buy from stores and not what is added at the depot and/or refinery. The stuff from the factory is exactly what my wife was an engineer in for a number of years. They test all sorts of additives and oils though and on all sorts of engines, including the ones in our cars. I am going to make my choices about such things based upon what I find out from those folks. They at least are testing all of these things and inspecting the engines throughout and afterwards.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

Still no car. It's been almost 4 weeks now. After installing the fuel pump, they found other parts that needed replacing, including another one they can only get from Germany. Basically anything that came into contact with the bad fuel I was using is being replaced. The total cost of repairs is now around $10,000, according to the most recent estimate from the dealership. Fortunately, the insurance company is picking it up. The parts are on order. Maybe next week...


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## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

I can smell some debate here regarding additives & diesel quality. I hate to re-post the photos that I just posted in the other thread. However, the mother goose does write "NO ADDITIVES" on my 2011's fuel cap. 

On the other hand, European does not necessary has a higher lubricity in their diesel. It's all relative to where you are located. If you read my fuel cap, it seems to prefer straight diesel but it will tolerate up to B7. BMW has done an amazing job of creating a turbo diesel engine with such a flexibility.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

bayoucity said:


> I can smell some debate here regarding additives & diesel quality. I hate to re-post the photos that I just posted in the other thread. However, the mother goose does write "NO ADDITIVES" on my 2011's fuel cap.
> 
> On the other hand, European does not necessary has a higher lubricity in their diesel. It's all relative to where you are located. If you read my fuel cap, it seems to prefer straight diesel but it will tolerate up to B7. BMW has done an amazing job of creating a turbo diesel engine with such a flexibility.


you are incorrect. Europe clearly has more lubricity in their fuel. Tell me why a US fuel distributor would be compelled to additize to a level that meets Bosch fuel requirements? Lubricity additives (B5 or other) are a very smart investment here in the US.

51 cetane is another spec that is nearly impossible to meet at a N American retail pump- additives are the only way to acheive that here.

Not saying that any additives would have helped Neutrinolad's car in this case...


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Neutrinolad said:


> Still no car. It's been almost 4 weeks now. After installing the fuel pump, they found other parts that needed replacing, including another one they can only get from Germany. Basically anything that came into contact with the bad fuel I was using is being replaced. *The total cost of repairs is now around $10,000, according to the most recent estimate from the dealership.* Fortunately, the insurance company is picking it up. The parts are on order. Maybe next week...


Out of curiosity, how does the $10K break-out:
- HPFP: 1 @
- Injectors: 6 @
- What else and at what price?

Presumably the cost of the bad fuel experience is being covered under the Comprehensive coverage?


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

My d is ready for 2nd service in 800miles. I was going through this link under Service Maintenance it mentions Diesel Fuel filter to be changed in 2nd service. Anyone who got their 2nd service got filter replaced? If this news is true then I will ask my SA to take pics or show it to me. Atleast it will give some idea of fuel I have been using till now.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> It was DIRTY fuel, not bad fuel. Lubricity additive can't do anything for dirt in your fuel pump. *Red Herring*!!!


Red Herring? Or Troll???? Or, someone who is trying to pump up the search engine ranking results for TDIClub.com


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

bimmerdiesel said:


> My d is ready for 2nd service in 800miles. I was going through this link under Service Maintenance it mentions Diesel Fuel filter to be changed in 2nd service. Anyone who got their 2nd service got filter replaced? If this news is true then I will ask my SA to take pics or show it to me. Atleast it will give some idea of fuel I have been using till now.


I think I might have been told the current policy is every 3rd CBS. My 2nd service did not include a new fuel filter.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

anE934fun said:


> Red Herring? Or Troll???? Or, someone who is trying to pump up the search engine ranking results for TDIClub.com


Saintor, is that you?!?


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

autoJeff said:


> I think I might have been told the current policy is every 3rd CBS. My 2nd service did not include a new fuel filter.


I will talk to my SA when I take it in.


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## dalekressin (Sep 3, 2008)

Sure hope it's only the sensor. Why would the sensor fail though?


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

dalekressin said:


> Sure hope it's only the sensor. Why would the sensor fail though?


hm, I'm lost


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, the odyssey is over...I finally got the car back. Total cost for repairs = $10,620. :yikes:


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Neutrinolad said:


> Well, the odyssey is over...I finally got the car back. Total cost for repairs = $10,620. :yikes:


Can you fill us in on what they replaced?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Breakdown of the parts and costs would be really nice to see.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Can you fill us in on what they replaced?


Here it is:

Fuel pump w/o m3
fuel flow valve
fuel strainer/filter
high pressure fuel pump
6 fuel injectors
fuel rail supply line
12 intake seals
egr clamp


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## joeincs (Sep 15, 2009)

Neutrinolad said:


> Here it is:
> 
> Fuel pump w/o m3
> fuel flow valve
> ...


I am definately getting the extended warrenty!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

The extended warranty would not have covered this just like the factory one did not. So not sure why this would be a reason to justify the extended one.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

joeincs said:


> I am definately getting the extended warrenty!


Warranty didnt come in picture at all. Neutrinolad's insurance is paying the bill. I guess all of us should confirm we have good comprehensive with low deductible. I checked mine after I read about issue and thank goodness its 300.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Or be willing to pay out of pocket then go after the station for the cost of damages. Would require a heck of a deep pocket though.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Neutrinolad said:


> Here it is:
> 
> Fuel pump w/o m3
> fuel flow valve
> ...


Food for thought: The FF in the tank will filter particles of X size, and the secondary FF along the feed line will filer particles significantly smaller than X, therefore surely the particles we saw floating around in the OP tank would have never made it past the secondary FF so why would they replace the HPFP, injectors, EGR clamp, and fuel rail supply line which are all located after the secondary filter?

I'm curious.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Neutrinolad; glad you got your car back 
Just wonder how did you get your insurance involved (maybe I missed something), did you just call them and told them you fueled your car at a station, car is damage, cover it.....
I have no idea how I would approach such situation, do car insurance cover damage do to the fuel? 
Thanks


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Food for thought: The FF in the tank will filter particles of X size, and the secondary FF along the feed line will filer particles significantly smaller than X, therefore surely the particles we saw floating around in the OP tank would have never made it past the secondary FF so why would they replace the HPFP, injectors, EGR clamp, and fuel rail supply line which are all located after the secondary filter?
> 
> I'm curious.


Probably more because they could do it. I bet the injectors could have been rebuilt, surely nothing unique about the injectors in these motors that makes them unrebuildable but have a hard time believing they even needed it let alone to be completely replaced.

I hydrolocked the motor in my truck years ago and did it via insurance and the dealer. They replaced all sorts of things that IMHO did not need to be replaced at all. The dealer said it is just want they do for vehicles that receive that sort of damage.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> why would they replace the HPFP, injectors, EGR clamp, and fuel rail supply line which are all located after the secondary filter?
> 
> I'm curious.


To ensure a complete repair that will not result in additional work or problems later.

Cost-effective? Probably not. But from the dealers perspective, as long as insurance is paying the bill, they want to ensure a problem-free repair, rather than risk needing to do additional work later. And even the insurance company would probably prefer paying more and being done with the claim for good, rather than have to deal with it again down the road if one of the components mentioned failed.


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## Neutrinolad (Jun 23, 2009)

tlak77 said:


> Neutrinolad; glad you got your car back
> Just wonder how did you get your insurance involved (maybe I missed something), did you just call them and told them you fueled your car at a station, car is damage, cover it.....
> I have no idea how I would approach such situation, do car insurance cover damage do to the fuel?
> Thanks


After the problem was diagnosed at the dealership, they notified me and I contacted my insurance agent. I had pictures the mechanic took, but they sent out a claims adjuster to the dealership. He confirmed that it was bad gas-related.

I had zero problems about it with my insurance company (Hanover) and was treated extremely well by the dealership throughout. :thumbup:


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> Probably more because they could do it. *I bet the injectors could have been rebuilt, surely nothing unique about the injectors in these motors that makes them unrebuildable but have a hard time believing they even needed it let alone to be completely replaced.*
> 
> I hydrolocked the motor in my truck years ago and did it via insurance and the dealer. They replaced all sorts of things that IMHO did not need to be replaced at all. The dealer said it is just want they do for vehicles that receive that sort of damage.


Any time you have crap like what was showing in the photos that Neutrinolad posted running through the injectors, they are basically toast and need replacement. BMW sells remanufactured injectors (p/n 13537808094), so I expect the original injectors were swapped for remanufactured injectors. Rebuilding injectors is not something I would trust the dealer to do, given the tight tolerances and performance criteria.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

anE934fun said:


> Rebuilding injectors is not something I would trust the dealer to do, given the tight tolerances and performance criteria.


I wouldn't expect a dealer to have staff that's qualified to rebuild injectors. Sounds like specialized work requiring specialized, and potentially expensive, tools. No?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

János said:


> But is it really _better_ for our cars? I've read the pros and cons but am still undecided. ....



More lubricity=better protection for your pump internals and theoretical improvement to fuel economy because of less friction (but probably not measurable) 
incremental cetane boost
B5 is low enough that it will not adversely impact your oil change interval


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

János said:


> But is it really _better_ for our cars? I've read the pros and cons but am still undecided.


It's not WORSE. My 335d has been running on B5 for almost 2 years/33K. It's all we have in WA State.


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## TopDog5450 (Feb 11, 2011)

pauliewa said:


> Ok that makes sense. The thing is, the one on my commute is a valero selling propel b5. So, with valero's 40ish cetane rating, is the benifit of the lubricity worth the loss in cetane?


Pauliewa, Propel Fuel is not refined by Valero or any of the other stations which have Propel pumps. Propel produces its fuel according to its own standards. So when talking about Propel cetane content, it has nothing to do with the station brands which feature the Propel pumps. You can click on the "Contact Us" link on the Propel web page and request information regarding cetane content.

Disclaimer: I am not an employee or distributor of Propel Fuels. The statements I express on Bimmerfest are simply my opinions as a satisfied customer of Propel Fuels.


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## TopDog5450 (Feb 11, 2011)

János said:


> But is it really _better_ for our cars? I've read the pros and cons but am still undecided. I'd have to go a bit out of my way to get to one of those Propel stations.
> 
> TopDog, what sort of price are they charging for B5? They don't show up on any of the online fuel websites such as GasBuddy.


Janos, I filled up the tank on August 8th and the price was $4.15 per gallon. On combined city/highway driving I am averaging about 520 miles per tank of B5 biodiesel blend.


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## TopDog5450 (Feb 11, 2011)

d geek said:


> More lubricity=better protection for your pump internals and theoretical improvement to fuel economy because of less friction (but probably not measurable)
> incremental cetane boost
> B5 is low enough that it will not adversely impact your oil change interval


d geek, current research on biodiesel blends and oil dilution support your statement that B5 is low enough that it will not adversely impact your oil change interval:

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/44833.pdf


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

:thumbup: That's why I made the statement 

I don't make this stuff up...


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## TopDog5450 (Feb 11, 2011)

*B5 Biodiesel blend*



floydarogers said:


> It's not WORSE. My 335d has been running on B5 for almost 2 years/33K. It's all we have in WA State.


Flyoydarogers, you could not state the use of B5 biodiesel blend in the 335d more succinctly.

I rest my case.


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## pauliewa (Jun 15, 2011)

I fueled up almost 12 gallons of the propel b5. I'm confident this wasn't a placebo effect, as I didn't have any expectations for performance to be increased, but it did. The car pulls substantially harder and performs even better than on the chevron ulsd. The mpgs for the 60miles or so are worse by about 15%...is the car is relearning with the new fuel?


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

B5 is 40 cetane

cetane = (Bx/100)*55 + (1-Bx/100)*40

For the different blends:
B2: 40.3
B5: 40.75
B10: 41.5
B20: 43
B33: 44.95
B50: 47.5
B67: 50.05


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

cssnms said:


> B5 is 40 cetane
> 
> cetane = (Bx/100)*55 + (1-Bx/100)*40
> 
> ...


I would not assume that the cetane of any D2, and especially in CA, is only 40.


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## pauliewa (Jun 15, 2011)

I can't believe that the valero propel b5 I pumped yesterday could have made my d drive so much better if it had cetane level that low. It had to be the combination of a higher cetane rating as well as the increased lubricity of the b5


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