# San Marino GP 2005 ****SPOILER****



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

The HACK said:


> They've been doing that for several races now to conserve the engine. The practice times were not indicative of actual qualifying times, where they're usually in the top 3 rows.
> 
> I think partly due to the engine regulation and the fact that Webber and Heidfeld both have had some significant seat time at some of these tracks they're limiting the use of their cars during practice. Especially since they can't run a third car, it makes judging their practice times especially difficult.
> 
> I believe at Bahrain one of the drivers didn't even bother to log time for a practice session.


Does anyone know who is running new engines this race?


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

berford said:


> Does anyone know who is running new engines this race?


Second race for Mahk Webbah, new engine for Nickers.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

Great race. Amazing drive by Michael from that far behind . Looks like he's baaaaack.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

Great race!! but it has his home field


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

What happened to Williams boys?  

What Michael did must've been one of the best of his races.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Impressive drive by Schumi. Nice one on Alonso to hold him off. Well done Jenson.

Have to give CBS credit, Reheen (sp?) and Daly decent commentary.


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## blazingbeat (Sep 9, 2003)

Why did CBS broadcast San Marino GP? Those two commentators did an okay job, but SPEED TV commentators (Steve Matchett, David Hobbs, etc.) are definitely more knowledgeable IMO. During today’s race, one of the CBS commentators talked about how powerful F1 carbon fiber :dunno: brakes are….. come on, you can do better.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Well, at least some people who otherwise may not have watched F1 before didn't just see the (somewhat more typical) someone (Schumey) taking a 1min lead and walking across the finish line kind of race.

Given some of Spoonface's comments coming into this one, it's good that he actually made it to the podium, lest he look like a total ass.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

But I still wonder why they didn't put a bit more fuel in his car on teh first stop. That way, if he had been able to get 2 - 3 more laps prior to his last stop, he would have come out AHEAD of Alonso. I guess they JUST MISSED in the calculations.

Good job by Alonso in not getting antsy watching a lot of red in his mirrors.

Man, did Trulli hold up a bunch of people or what?


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

It was a very interesting race. Michael really made his speed during low fuel at the first stop count. He passed a lot of people right there. Alex will be smiling.

Williams is saying the car wasn't as uncompetitive as it seemed. They got a bad start (true), Trulli held them up (also true). Heidfeld said he could have run faster than the Toyotas at the end but passing was not possible. They were also in traffic all day. Ralf must have brake tested Heifeld and got penalized 25 sec for a dangerous move so Williams then picks up 8th place. Pretty dumb move, but what can I say. Webber's engine must have been losing power also at the end. The engine rule is pretty dumb too.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

What we saw today was a master class by Ferrari and MS after his mistake in qualifying. Bodes well for the rest of the season since the tires looked OK and he was way faster than the Renault. too bad about Kimi though.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

What Michael did today was special as was Alonso's fight with him. Performance at Imola doesn't necessarily relate to the other courses they will see in the near future though. Imola is all about curb hopping. The curbs are probably what took out Kimi and broke his CV joint and caused Webber's slip-ups that lost position. The temperature there today was cool and may have suited the Bridgestones better than the Michelins. Let's just say it was a departure from the first three. It was good though. Let's hope none of the top teams are flat out of contention. The more competitive it is the better it is for us the spectators.

Strange issue with Button's car. It made weight as it finished the race, but was under weight when it had been drained of it's fuel. His position was in jeopardy for a while. The quote was:

"The stewards after hearing the explanation of the competitor's representatives and studying all the available documentation decided that the matter requires no further action."

You'd have to as at what point in it's fuel load does it go under weight? They don't mention if the driver's weight factors in.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

blazingbeat said:


> Why did CBS broadcast San Marino GP? Those two commentators did an okay job, but SPEED TV commentators (Steve Matchett, David Hobbs, etc.) are definitely more knowledgeable IMO. During today's race, one of the CBS commentators talked about how powerful F1 carbon fiber :dunno: brakes are&#8230;.. come on, you can do better.


Ralf Shaheen (spel?) and Derek Daly both worked for SpeedTV, Derek even did extensive coverage of USGP, he also drove in F1 so I don't see how you can question his knowledge. They didn't get into more details because it was network TV and network TV audience. :tsk:


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## blazingbeat (Sep 9, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> Ralf Shaheen (spel?) and Derek Daly both worked for SpeedTV, Derek even did extensive coverage of USGP, he also drove in F1 so I don't see how you can question his knowledge. They didn't get into more details because it was network TV and network TV audience. :tsk:


Right, I remember Ralf mentioned that Daly was a former F1 driver. Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning their knowledge; it's just that I am more used to F1 coverage in SPEED TV style: SPEED commentators usually talk about in-depth and technical stuff; whereas Ralf and Derek had to explain the concept of understeer and oversteer.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

MS was pretty darn fast with a fuel load on after the stops also. Seems he just took it easy on the first stint until he had a clear track.


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## WAM (Jan 30, 2002)

That was a heck of a race, great job by MS and the team. All credit to Alonso for doing a superb job in holding off MS, he drove superbly, making just one little error and getting off-line, but he recovered to keep the Ferrari behind him.

Damn shame about Rubens retiring, I was looking forward to him trying to fight his way to the front. The Ferrari site has no mention of what the problem was.

Does anybody have any further info on how Button did not get DQ'd for an underweight car?


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

Where's Alex? I thought he'd be all over the apparent Scuderia resurrection. :dunno:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

WAM said:


> That was a heck of a race, great job by MS and the team. All credit to Alonso for doing a superb job in holding off MS, he drove superbly, making just one little error and getting off-line, but he recovered to keep the Ferrari behind him.
> 
> Damn shame about Rubens retiring, I was looking forward to him trying to fight his way to the front. The Ferrari site has no mention of what the problem was.
> 
> Does anybody have any further info on how Button did not get DQ'd for an underweight car?


Steward ruling. FIA is appealing their own ruling now. It's due to be settled in court on May 4, I believe. We'll probably get lots of details then.


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## WileECoyote (May 7, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> Ralf Shaheen (spel?) and Derek Daly both worked for SpeedTV, Derek even did extensive coverage of USGP, he also drove in F1 so I don't see how you can question his knowledge. They didn't get into more details because it was network TV and network TV audience. :tsk:


Of course, it was a good race, and they covered the 5-10th place racers pretty well.

I'm glad DD was there, since he has some credibility, though the other guy was doing a lot of talking, for talking's sake. I wouldn't say he sucked, but the Speed guys together were better overall.

However, one thing that I learned from them was about the red light/leader indicator on the camera bar - but me and my non-HD tv didn't see it too well. Is that for the other drivers, the crowd, or both?

One other noobie question - how do they limit speeds in the pit area - is there some sort of transmitter (or transmitters) that cover the pit area and prevent the drivers from shifting out of first? I heard them talking about rev limiters, but do they also block transmission shifts?


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Nope, there is a button on the steering wheel that the driver pushes to engage the pit speed limiter.

And yes, they sometimes let off eary and get penalized. And they have to brake to get to the speed before the mark at the pit entrance, also sometimes screwed up and penalized.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> Nope, there is a button on the steering wheel that the driver pushes to engage the pit speed limiter.
> 
> And yes, they sometimes let off eary and get penalized. And they have to brake to get to the speed before the mark at the pit entrance, also sometimes screwed up and penalized.


If I recall correctly, they are penalized by a pit lane drive through, which is to say that they are given an extra chance to practice engaging and disengaging the speed limiter at the right times.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Button's not out of the woods yet The FIA is going to appeal the stewards decision to allow his car to be underweight when low on fuel. The car with driver and fuel at the end of the race weighed 606 kg. Without fuel and fluids the car weighed 594.6 kg. It should not be below 600 kg. It's not much, but every little bit counts and rule's a rule. It's not over for the FIA anyway.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

WILLIA///M said:


> Where's Alex? I thought he'd be all over the apparent Scuderia resurrection. :dunno:


:hi:

It looks like I'm the only Ferrari supporter here, I'm not enjoying the constant bashing, so no party from me. I'm watching the races with great interest and excitement.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> :hi:
> 
> It looks like I'm the only Ferrari supporter here, I'm not enjoying the constant bashing, so no party from me. I'm watching the races with great interest and excitement.


Oh come on Alex, there are many Ferrari fans here (myself included) but they were just turned off by some of the antics of the current team. Brawn and Todt definitely brought success to the team but some of their moves were low class and not what I would call in the spirit of the sport, but if you recall Enzo was the same way - succeed no matter what the price.

I'm not a big fan of Schumi but there is no denying that he is one of the best F1 ever had and I enjoy seasons like this one when he has to fight for the title.

To engage you in the discussion let me ask you this: Do you think Rubens already knows that he'll never be a champion?

...and one more: Who do you want to see driving for Scuderia when MS finally retires?


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> :hi:
> 
> It looks like I'm the only Ferrari supporter here, I'm not enjoying the constant bashing, so no party from me. I'm watching the races with great interest and excitement.


There are others. I have been a Ferrari fan for MANY years, including the VERY lean years.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> Oh come on Alex, there are many Ferrari fans here (myself included) but they were just turned off by some of the antics of the current team. Brawn and Todt definitely brought success to the team but some of their moves were low class and not what I would call in the spirit of the sport, but if you recall Enzo was the same way - succeed no matter what the price.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of Schumi but there is no denying that he is one of the best F1 ever had and I enjoy seasons like this one when he has to fight for the title.
> 
> ...


If you don't want antics, don't get into racing. Check out FasTrack for protest appeals in SCCA Club Racing, and see some antics for a trophy, much less for millions of dollars.

Schumi is not worse than many other champions. Remember Fangio made the other team driver stop FROM THE LEAD to give up his car so that Fangio could finish the race. Check out Senna antics, Mansfield, Lauda, etc, etc, etc. If they were quiet miktoast kinds of people, you would have never heard of them. 

I would guess that lots of drivers know in reality they will never be champion. But Rubens has a chance if he plays nice and sticks with Scuderia.

As for who to replace MS, I will have to think about that one. But for driving style, I really like Button, very smooth and precise with the steering wheel, like MS.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

Bimmerfest Ferrari Bashers said:


> Great race. Amazing drive by Michael from that far behind . Looks like he's baaaaack.
> 
> What Michael did must've been one of the best of his races.
> 
> ...


You gotta admit we give it up when it's due.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

WILLIA///M said:


> You gotta admit we give it up when it's due.


Yeah, we do. Thanks, WILLIA//M!

Alex, no matter what happens now it's gonna be good. If Schumi really gets going he got some competition. I think that's really all most of us want. I don't want Renault to walk off and win all the races either. I'd like to see Williams do better, but that may happen too.


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## Mr. E (Dec 19, 2001)

It's shaping up to be a very interesting season, maybe the best in awhile. Schumi had an awesome drive, to be sure. 

I'd like to give props to Ralph Shaheen (he used to do the Speed coverage of WRC) and Derek Daley (he was great when he used to do color commentary for Speed World Challenge). I thought they did a solid job considering they were covering a sport that's quite foreign to most Americans weaned on "Go fast, turn left." I think it's about the best we could have hoped for. Now let's keep our fingers crossed that the other three CBS races will see the announcers upping the "tech" quotient!

Finally, I never heard any mention of the "winglets" that Renault had on top of their front wing (seemingly turning it into a biplane wing). I figured either we would see them protested and banned immediately, or many more teams will start sporting them in upcoming races (or maybe scenario 2 followed by scenario 1).


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> Schumi is not worse than many other champions. Remember Fangio made the other team driver stop FROM THE LEAD to give up his car so that Fangio could finish the race. Check out Senna antics, Mansfield, Lauda, etc, etc, etc. If they were quiet miktoast kinds of people, you would have never heard of them.


I hope you meant "Il Leone" Mansell  . Now Mansell was difficult character, no doubt but it was hard not to love the guy, talk about unlucky...

I'm not trying to argue here and I know exactly what you mean by saying Shumi is no worse but I simply don't have much sympathy for him. I always thought that his driving was at its best when he had to fight like '98 and '99 seasons when he fought Mika. I truly hope that it's gonna be the same this time with Alonso. I'd love to see one or two more drivers acting as spoilers in championship fight this season.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

It sounds like BAR Honda is in serious trouble with this weight issue on Button's car. 10kg lighter throughout the race = 0.3 seconds a lap faster. Without any fluids on board, Button's car was approximately 6kg under weight once the race was over.

The car will be completely taken apart now by the FIA's technical delegation.

The FIA suspects that his car had a second fuel tank. If this turns out to be true, BAR could be looking at a season long ban from Formula One.

No team has been banned from Formula since ... 1984, when Tyrrel refused to use a turbo engine.

This could be interesting. We will know in a week.


.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> I hope you meant "Il Leone" Mansell  . Now Mansell was difficult character, no doubt but it was hard not to love the guy, talk about unlucky...
> 
> I'm not trying to argue here and I know exactly what you mean by saying Shumi is no worse but I simply don't have much sympathy for him. I always thought that his driving was at its best when he had to fight like '98 and '99 seasons when he fought Mika. I truly hope that it's gonna be the same this time with Alonso. I'd love to see one or two more drivers acting as spoilers in championship fight this season.


Late night and brain dead. Yeah, Mansell. But he made is luck at times.

I just don't see Schumi as that bad a guy. He doesn't have the antics of some drivers in the past, and even some in the not so past.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Patrick said:


> It sounds like BAR Honda is in serious trouble with this weight issue on Button's car. 10kg lighter throughout the race = 0.3 seconds a lap faster. Without any fluids on board, Button's car was approximately 6kg under weight once the race was over.
> 
> The car will be completely taken apart now by the FIA's technical delegation.
> 
> ...


Maybe Jensen is still trying to get out of his contract with BAR.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> Maybe Jensen is still trying to get out of his contract with BAR.


The way that his contract is written, it looks like by August, he should be free to move to Williams for 2006.

.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

SteveT said:


> Yeah, we do. Thanks, WILLIA//M!
> 
> Alex, no matter what happens now it's gonna be good. If Schumi really gets going he got some competition. I think that's really all most of us want. I don't want Renault to walk off and win all the races either. I'd like to see Williams do better, but that may happen too.


Well said. Despite most of us having an affinity for anything powered by BMW (go figure), it's the competition, not the lack of competition that turns us on. Probably the main reason for my distaste of MS derives from the "move over Rubens" incident ('03, was it?). That's counter to the spirit of racing and bad for the sport.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

berford said:


> Probably the main reason for my distaste of MS derives from the "move over Rubens" incident ('03, was it?). That's counter to the spirit of racing and bad for the sport.


Which was on team orders, not MS orders.

Which BTW MS "payed back" at Indy that year.

And there have been worse team orders over the years.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> Which was on team orders, not MS orders.
> 
> Which BTW MS "payed back" at Indy that year.
> 
> And there have been worse team orders over the years.


I know that. The inicident just stuck with me as one of the most blatantly unprofessional and unsportsmanlike of all time. And he surely played along.

I don't remember Indy being so clear cut, though.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

berford said:


> I know that. The inicident just stuck with me as one of the most blatantly unprofessional and unsportsmanlike of all time. And he surely played along.


 Quite the opposite actually.

I just would like to know where all the outrage is for Hakkinen doing exactly the same thing (twice) or for all those countless F1 that have used that prerogative in the past to insure success?

:tsk:


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

AC said:


> Quite the opposite actually.
> 
> I just would like to know where all the outrage is for Hakkinen doing exactly the same thing (twice) or for all those countless F1 that have used that prerogative in the past to insure success?
> 
> :tsk:


I think the difference quite simply are the radio messages from Jean Todt to Rubens; "...Rubens let Michael thru...for the good of the team Rubens, let Michael through." Then that coupled with the image presented by Rubens at Park Ferme where Todt wanted to thank him and Rubens didn't want to get near him. The outrage from the fans was also apparent. In the case of Mika and DC, they did that on their own between the two of them. At least that's my impression.

I was at Indy when Michael more or less let Rubens get close and I thought Rubens just took it at that point. If you watch the in car of Michael he kind of gives it an oh well shrug. At the time I was pissed off, cause I thought Michael should have won and didn't like the fact that he either gave it away or Rubens stole it.

I respect your opinion AC of Michael, but these are my views and recollection of what happened during that period. I'm not saying this to bash Michael. It's a chapter in a long, excellent career that will be very hard for anyone else to come close to.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I'm with Steve here, Schumi is no doubt one of the great champions but his image will always be tainted by 3 incidents: 1994 Adelaide (collision with Hill), 1997 Jerez (collision with Villeneuve) and 2002 Austria (hard to blame him for that one).


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

SteveT said:


> The outrage from the fans was also apparent. In the case of Mika and DC, they did that on their own between the two of them. At least that's my impression.


 Read the interview with DC in this month's F1.... it was Team orders...twice.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> I'm with Steve here, Schumi is no doubt one of the great champions but his image will always be tainted by 3 incidents: 1994 Adelaide (collision with Hill), 1997 Jerez (collision with Villeneuve) and 2002 Austria (hard to blame him for that one).


 But would you say Ayrton was tainted for running into Prost...?


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

AC said:


> But would you say Ayrton was tainted for running into Prost...?


Ahh, I knew you are gonna bring this up...
To be honest I wouldn't look bad at Michael if it happened only once, let's say his run in with Hill but that's not the case. BTW, at season opener in Australia I saw vintage Schumi


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

AC said:


> Read the interview with DC in this month's F1.... it was Team orders...twice.


OK, but it didn't get spread all over the media the way it was between Todt and Rubens. I've been following F1 since the early 70's and if it was team orders it made no impression on me. The Ferrari event was right out there for all to see.

I'd say Senna had a side he couldn't control, that he had a mystical right to win. He couldn't keep his own agreements with teammates because he just couldn't not take the win. Prost could make an agreement and stand by it, but Ayrton just had to be in front. You could call it a flaw. Maybe it was part of his talent...he had lots of talent that's for sure.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

The only difference with the RB/MS event was that Rubens (NOT MS) make it so blatant. If he had just slowed a little, then let MS by the previous lap or even middle of the last lap, fine. But almost stopping between the last corner and the line was a bit much.

But RUBENS did that. So why not hammer him for doing it in such a way that made it so annoying?

And there have been several other end of season shunts to ensure a championship. And if the difference to YOU was say some $20,000,000 plus, for the next year alone, you would do the SAME thing.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

It sounds like BAR Honda may get taken to the cleaners tomorrow.

Rumor has it that 2 former BAR employees (engineers) gave information about the posssible use of an extra fuel tank in Button's car, to the FIA's technical director before the San Marino Grand Prix.

Since 2003, the FIA has offered $1 million USD to anyone that gives information about cheating in the sport that proves to be true. No one has yet been "paid".

A press conference is scheduled for Thursday with details about the FIA's decision.


: popcorn: 


.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> It sounds like BAR Honda may get taken to the cleaners tomorrow.
> 
> Rumor has it that 2 former BAR employees (engineers) gave information about the posssible use of an extra fuel tank in Button's car, to the FIA's technical director before the San Marino Grand Prix.
> 
> ...


If so, it's too bad for Jenson that they ruled against him last year in the contract dispute. Ever seen the movie _"Sliding Doors"?_


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Patrick said:


> ...
> 
> Rumor has it that 2 former BAR employees (engineers) gave information about the posssible use of an extra fuel tank in Button's car, to the FIA's technical director before the San Marino Grand Prix....
> 
> .


 I was reading on GrandPrix.com that it is not illegal to have more than one fuel tank as long as all the tanks are contained in a single outside "bladder". It is also not up to the teams to tell the stewarts that they might have more than one "tank" it is up to the stewarts to discover this if there is a discrepancy like there might have been at Imola. But the simple fact of having 1-2-20 fuel cells is immaterial.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14687.html


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

The FIA recommends that BAR Honda should be disqualified from the 2005 Formula One season - this was reported this afternoon by the FIA.

The final ruling will be made and announced tomorrow afternoon.


.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

And more news ...

The FIA also recommends that BAR Honda be fined "at least" 1 million EUR.

It will be interesting to hear what exactly they have been found to be in violation of.


.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I read it again (the report).

Change the word "recommends" to DEMANDS (that BAR Honda be disqualified from the season).


.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Nobody thinks this has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with signing the new concord agreement by any chance....right?


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## WileECoyote (May 7, 2003)

Patrick said:


> I read it again (the report).
> 
> Change the word "recommends" to DEMANDS (that BAR Honda be disqualified from the season).
> 
> .


Wow. :yikes:

If it's true, how did Honda think they could get away with it? :dunno:


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Let's speculate a little on what might have happened. So there is additional internal tank hidden inside the main tank. This alone is legal but may give the team advantage if it's used as ballast and this is illegal even if the additional tank stays full throughout the event. According to FIA F1 technical regulations Article 4 ballast may be used but only if the tools are required for its removal. No tools are required to remove extra fuel acting as ballast.

Then we have weight issue. According to Article 4 the weight of the car must be no less than 605kg during qualifying and no less than 600kg at all other times during the event. 
I suspect that BAR used the internal tank to run the car under minimum weight. This would happen in the last few laps prior to the pit stop when the main tank was empty. They got caught at Imola with the car 5kg below minimum weight. If you don't want to be caught you have to remember that you can't run the car using the additional tank in the last stint. Somebody screwed up and in addition to that 2 ex-employees decided to reveal information about the extra tank to FIA.

Cheating in the top racing series? Well, it hapened before. I remember Toyota being not only stripped of all the points but also banned for entire following season in WRC for cheating with their turbo. 

If BAR in fact cheated the FIA will ban them, I have no doubt.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

WileECoyote said:


> Wow. :yikes:
> 
> If it's true, how did Honda think they could get away with it? :dunno:


 but contrast with the Williams brake duct debacle....FIA did not want to ban them at the time....


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

AC said:


> but contrast with the Williams brake duct debacle....FIA did not want to ban them at the time....


It's a little different when you put bigger brake ducts or different diffuser or wing, they are out in the open for everyone to see. Concealing a device that will help you to run the car below minimum weight is a different story, we're talking tens of a second per lap here. 
I bet that if FIA could prove that Ferrari had traction control back when it was banned the Scuderia would've been stripped of points. No one of course would dare to ban mighty Ferrari, not when they are the biggest asset of the sport.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> ....No one of course would dare to ban mighty Ferrari, not when they are the biggest asset of the sport.


I hear Alex yelling "FOUL."


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

berford said:


> I hear Alex yelling "FOUL."


I don't really blame the teams for trying. As the good ol' boys say "if you're not cheating then you're not trying hard enough".


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> No one of course would dare to ban mighty Ferrari, not when they are the biggest asset of the sport.


 or McLaren when they were running their "DSC" trick with their rear brakes for that matter.

But if the FIA claims to have known about the extra tank since malaysia...


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

The former BAR Honda engineers that gave up the goose about this to the FIA, now work for Renault.


:eeps: 


.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

berford said:


> Seems like about the right punishment to me, unless you could get into the heads of BAR and determine that they actually intended to defraud.
> 
> Kind of strange how it all worked out. Williams benefitted the most, I believe, picking up 5 points after preliminarily having none.


On top of all that, it means Jensen Button's escape clause in his contract may very well be triggered by the end of the season.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Let's see, this helps teams, ban them for two races, meaning PO the sponsors, fans, team, etc.

How could they have run below legal wieght if they with this mystery tank empty they were only 5 kg under. So they would have had to be running with less than 5 kg ot total fuel on board to be under weight.

And if there is no rule against an extra collector tank, then how can it be illegal? There are sumps in some fule systems that are designed to keep fuel next to the pickup, but not all that fuel is actually usable by the engine, therefore you can't run it below weight, because you can't get the fuel out, without taking the sump out and turning it upside down.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

The HACK said:


> On top of all that, it means Jensen Button's escape clause in his contract may very well be triggered by the end of the season.


It will be triggered. No way he gets 75% of the points that this year's champ gets with the 2 race ban. Button and Webber in '06.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> AC, don't you think that what Ferrari is doing is against the good of the sport? F1 is struggling not only because of the rules but because of escalating costs. How many more teams will have to go down before you realize that? Do you think it's going to be fun watching F1 with only Ferrari and Toyota racing each other?
> 
> I don't think I'd like the racing series where you can pretty much predict the results based on the budget the team has. Wait few more years with no change and it's gonna happen. It would be a sad day when all the races are won by Toyota, wouldn't it? They are determined to win no matter what the cost and they will outspend Ferrari at some point.
> 
> I fail to see how new engine and tire rules help to reduce the costs and even the playing field. Drastic reduction in testing would help a lot. Spend all the money and test as long as you want in winter but during the season keep it to minimum.


I don't see why they should immolate themselves on the altar of ideal none of the other teams follow. After all I'm sure Bridgestone pays for their tire testing and I'm also sure the combined testing costs of the Michelin teams works out to be the same more or less.

Ferrari used to spend more than anyone else and STILL not win. Toyota spends more than anyone and it STILL is not winning. Ferrari did all this testing and it STILL got beaten 4 times this year...it's a smokescreen this controversy.

and next year's v8 already rev to 20000rpm....


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

What's against the rules is that they must do an after race dry weight measurement. They normally do a "lifted pump drain", which means they lift the front of the car and pump out the fuel. There is so little fuel in the fuel pickup catch tank that this isn't typically worried about, but in this case they've got 9kg of fuel and need 6kg for the engine to run correctly. So, a lifted pump drain doesn't provide a dry weight. The car will still run and theoretically go below minimum weight. BAR is acting like they never considered this aspect of the problem. The FIA is saying that they knew about this but the cars hadn't made the end of the race to be scrutineered. If this is allowed you can bet someone would run with 50kg of fuel in the pickup.

I think this is a sorry situation for a manufacturer like Honda to be involved in. I don't think Honda knew. In fact, I wonder what will happen to team personnel if they are excluded. This is no way to influence F1 results or get Jensen to Williams. It's just no good.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

AC said:


> I don't see why they should immolate themselves on the altar of ideal none of the other teams follow. After all I'm sure Bridgestone pays for their tire testing and I'm also sure the combined testing costs of the Michelin teams works out to be the same more or less.
> 
> Ferrari used to spend more than anyone else and STILL not win. Toyota spends more than anyone and it STILL is not winning. Ferrari did all this testing and it STILL got beaten 4 times this year...it's a smokescreen this controversy.
> 
> and next year's v8 already rev to 20000rpm....


Are you trying to say that all that extra testing is for Bridgestone only? :rofl: Let's be real...

Also don't forget that it was Ferrari and Bridgestone that alienated other teams in previous years by designing tires that suited Ferrari only. There are other teams running on Japanese rubber, let Jordan do some testing on Bridgestone budget.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> Are you trying to say that all that extra testing is for Bridgestone only? :rofl: Let's be real...
> 
> Also don't forget that it was Ferrari and Bridgestone that alienated other teams in previous years by designing tires that suited Ferrari only. There are other teams running on Japanese rubber, let Jordan do some testing on Bridgestone budget.


Most of the extra testing was for tires yes.

But you miss the point, both B-Stone and MIchelin spend the same amount in different ways.

Your suggestion of forcing B-Stone do testing with a crappy team like Jordan would be fine in a mickey-mouse series but not when you are playing in F1 and hundred on millions are at stake. Why should B-Stone do that? to make the other teams happy? seen any jordan-bridgestone adds lately?

Do let's be real, shall we?


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1181535&postcount=93

:tsk:


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1181535&postcount=93
> 
> :tsk:


What's to get?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

This is pretty strange. I saw a drawing in today's paper of the double fuel tank. The spare/extra/secondary fuel "collector" was found INSIDE of the existing tank.

I am going to watch the free practice today and see what other details come out.

BAR Honda will not protest the decision by the FIA.


.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Patrick said:


> This is pretty strange. I saw a drawing in today's paper of the double fuel tank. The spare/extra/secondary fuel "collector" was found INSIDE of the existing tank.
> 
> .


On the official F1 site...
http://www.formula1.com/insight/technical_analysis/team/2005/2/111.html


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Yeah, that is the same one.


.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Yeah, that is the same one.
> 
> .


I still say this morw about strong-arming by BernieMax than anything else


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

AC said:


> I still say this morw about strong-arming by BernieMax than anything else


I failed to understand your comment about this having to do with the next Concorde Agreement.

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Wow. The two race suspension will cost BAR approximately 10 million USD. Ouch.

And as others have mentioned, this certainly means that Button will be back with Williams next year (if he wants to). By the European Grand Prix, Alonso could be way out in front ...


.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Patrick said:


> I failed to understand your comment about this having to do with the next Concorde Agreement.
> 
> .


I think the technical term is "hardball"


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Divid Richards' comment about this: "Nick is Fried."  

Meaning the team boss, Nick Fry, of course.

The FIA has known since last year that BAR have been cheating, and has been looking to bust them. I don't therefore, get the hardball idea wrt the next Concorde Agreement.


.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Divid Richards' comment about this: "Nick is Fried."
> 
> Meaning the team boss, Nick Fry, of course.
> 
> ...


 Why wait?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

AC said:


> Why wait?


Supposedly, it wasn't for a lack of looking.

The FIA was tipped off by two former BAR engineers that now work for Renault.

According to Mosley, they have been looking for something since last year ...

.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

AC said:


> Why wait?


From what I read, the cars haven't finished since the suspicions came up. They don't get inspected unless they finish.


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