# Finally drove an E46 M3



## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Went to Heishman, and after about 10-15 minutes of convincing them I was serious and not just some punk, managed to get a drive in a 2002 M3 coupe, with 2K miles on it. 

Let me preface by saying that I checked my biases at the door. I've been trying to talk myself into ordering a new M3 for a couple of months now, and as a result I really wanted to like the drive. 

But it's fair to say that I didn't. 

Don't get me wrong; the M3 is a great car. It's just simply not as much fun to drive as my current car. The conclusion was inescapable, and as much as I want a new car, I can't convince myself that the new M3 is worth the money over the old one. 

There are two main areas of concern (and these will be familiar). The first is the steering, which feels overboosted and lifeless compared to the rack in the E36. There is a definite video game element to dialing in lock, as if the wheel isn't really connected to anything more than a servo. Not good. 

The second is the throttle. I've often thought that TD's anti-DBW vendetta was a bit extreme, but after driving the E46 M3, I'm not so sure. Throttle blips that would be perfectly timed in the E36 resulted in no engine activity in the E46; I would blip the throttle pedal, and even though I could *hear* the pedal moving, nothing would happen with the engine. Blipping the throttle for downshifts was an effort involving predicting the delay, rather than second nature. FWIW, engaging the sport button reduced this problem, but made the car unacceptably jumpy in stop and go traffic. 

Other than that (or maybe including those things), the car is a very fast E46. It's substantially quicker than an E36 M3 (especially my convertible), but it's not *usefully* faster around town; low end torque is not dramatically different, although there is a bit more of it. The interior was familiar from my 323, which is not a bad thing, but there were no surprises. The handling, of course, was superb, although I didn't drive anywhere near the limit. 

Other, little things: The lack of a spare tire, and the provision of 18" wheels, means that I'd never be comfortable on a trip. The driveline clunk was both noticeable and a bit irritating. 

In short, I can't justify the extra expense for a car that has performance I'll never use but is less fun to drive in the kind of driving I do every day. Moreover, given two cars with the same mileage and wear, I'd take the E36 over the E46 every time. The E46 just doesn't advance the ball in the right ways. 

The dealer told me "most people who buy these cars don't need to drive them first." Maybe if they did, the E46 M3 would be a bigger step forward.


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## glaws (Feb 21, 2002)

Well, if you are happier with the E36 M3, I say more power to you. I wouldnt spend $50,000.00 + on a E46 either. I cannot comment on the difference in "road feel" between the two models because I have never driven an E36. BUT, I have driven a wide range of cars from MG TD's (talk about "connected to the road" WOW! ) through Corvettes and BMW 328CI's and my E46 M3 feels as connected as any. IMO the balance between handling and comfort is superb. Never had a car that would stick to the road as well and yet be comfortable on long trips. The "sport" setting does take getting used to. One drive won't do it. I have driven in sport since the first week after taking delivery of the M3 and have had no trouble with it being "jumpy" in heavy traffic. You just have to be careful about throttle application with 333 HP and a sensitive throttle. What I *do* appreciate is my ability to find holes in the traffic and just "breathe" on the throttle and *I am gone!* Some time back on a trip up I35 from San Marcos back to the DFW area I had an opportunity to pass some slow movers in the far left lane by moving over two lanes. When I got past I looked at the speedo and was going 115 MPH :yikes: After I got off the throttle (and looked for cops) I thought to myself "that was efffortless". I also have the ability to take turns and curves at speeds that would have most other drivers off the road hanging from their safety belts trying to breath around their (deployed) air bags. The brakes in my M3 are acknowledged to be among the best on the road. The DSC and associated electronics keep my aged ass (I am 63 and don't have the reflexes you young'uns have) out of trouble. The fit and finish is great. I can carry four people, if I want. The car puts a  on my face every time I drive it: heavy traffic, open road or twisties. I love the looks of my Topaz blue M3. My dealer (Moritz) is great. For me, this is absolutlely the best 50 grand I ever spent on anything, any time, any where.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Interesting post. A few comments based on owning one.

1) The steering, it is a little overboosted, but I find that at serious speed it is just right. And piddlying around town is not what this car is set up for.  A few people have had some extra caster dialed in for more steering feel.

2) Mine is SMG so I haven't had a requirement for blipping as much as a manual would. But I am starting to heel and toe blip on off-throttle downshifts, as the SMG software doesn't do this unless you are pushing the car a good bit. And I haven't found any noticeable delay. And I do drive our M Roadster a good bit (including AutoX) and so should be familiar with the difference.

3) I agree that around town the torque doesn't seem like that much more, but having followed my wife in the M Roadster (and she doesn't putter about in that car), the M3 is deceptive. It is much quicker than it feels.

4) How many flats have you had? In 30 years of driving, I have had two flats that a spare helped. One was a LONG time ago, and the second was my fault. I had a tire that was not properly sealing on the rim, and even knowing this, I took it out for a evening meeting some friends. Of course on the way home, the seal broke and the tire went flat. The only other flat we have had in the family was when my wife took out two tires and a rim one day (I told you she didn't putter about  ). Of course a spare was of no use, since nobody carries two spares in town. And BTW the first one, a long time ago, could have been used to get home if I had an air pump as it was a slow leak.

I use AAA+ and if necessary, the mobility kit. And since I am against plugging or patch-plugging a high performance tire on a high performance car, I have no problem using the mobility kit. Also 18 tires aren't as hard to find as they once were. But remember in the early days one big complaint with the E36 M3 was the lack of availbility of those 17 tires. 

Al your points arevalid considerations, I am just pointing out some alternative info. And yes, I am somewhat biased towards the car. 

Also, if you track the cars, the E46 M3 is substantially faster than the E36 M3. :bigpimp:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

If the lag was really bad, I have to wonder how the thing was driven. One problem with OBDII is that it will REALLY screw with the throttle response in a relatively gently driven car.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *If the lag was really bad, I have to wonder how the thing was driven. One problem with OBDII is that it will REALLY screw with the throttle response in a relatively gently driven car. *


But would OBDII actually modify the DBW response? I have definitely noticed that my car is faster than it was when I took delivery, but I wonder if the E46 DBW system would be affected at all.

Anyway, thanks for the post. Your comments more or less mirror what I've heard in the past, but I intend to drive one myself when I get a chance. Not that I'm anywhere near replacing my current car, although it *has* been four months.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Yes, OBDII DOES mess with throttle response.

Sometime you guys will have to try my car after 500 miles of city driving pre and post ECU reset.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> *Interesting post. A few comments based on owning one.
> 
> 1) The steering, it is a little overboosted, but I find that at serious speed it is just right. And piddlying around town is not what this car is set up for.  A few people have had some extra caster dialed in for more steering feel.
> 
> ...


I must be unlikely WRT tires. I've had to change out four or five tires in 15 years of driving, and on my prior two cars (before the M) I had situations where if I had not had a spare I would have been SOL. Changing a tire at 1:30 AM on I-96 in Detroit makes one leery of the idea of being without a spare.

NCC won't even *let* my car on the track, so the E46 would be a whooole lot faster.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

JST, did you drive with SPORT mode on?


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2002)

atyclb said:


> *JST, did you drive with SPORT mode on? *


Re-read his post.

"FWIW, engaging the sport button reduced this problem, but made the car unacceptably jumpy in stop and go traffic."


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *Re-read his post.
> 
> "FWIW, engaging the sport button reduced this problem, but made the car unacceptably jumpy in stop and go traffic." *


sorry, missed that. So, the throttle was TOO responsive in SPORT mode?


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

JST said:


> *Throttle blips that would be perfectly timed in the E36 resulted in no engine activity in the E46; I would blip the throttle pedal, and even though I could *hear* the pedal moving, nothing would happen with the engine. Blipping the throttle for downshifts was an effort involving predicting the delay, rather than second nature. *


I read this over and over, and still just don't get it. I wonder if it's just a matter of acclimating to the car.

I've developed the throttle-blipping/rev-matching/heel-toe habit, and after a few months, I nearly always get it right on the nose in my E46 330i. I've never noticed a lag or delay of any kind on this. :dunno:


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2002)

atyclb said:


> *sorry, missed that. So, the throttle was TOO responsive in SPORT mode? *


If you recall, my complaint about the DBW throttle on my old 330i related to BOTH the lag AND the lack of linearity. I'd associate the "jumpiness" with the lack of linearity. You depress it and it doesn't respond as you would expect it to.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: Finally drove an E46 M3*



Plaz said:


> *I read this over and over, and still just don't get it. I wonder if it's just a matter of acclimating to the car.
> 
> I've developed the throttle-blipping/rev-matching/heel-toe habit, and after a few months, I nearly always get it right on the nose in my E46 330i. I've never noticed a lag or delay of any kind on this. :dunno: *


And I've read some of you, whose opinions I respect, insisting there was no lag. I don't get it.

I do not recall, though, have you driven an E36 M3?


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

I think some of the quirks JST experienced can be "resolved" through experience with the car. For example, the unwieldy Sport mode would take some time to become accustomed with its behavior to the point where it would no longer be unwieldy.

I can see your points - I needed no such acclimatizing in my car - but I would stop short of calling all of them flaws.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> *I think some of the quirks JST experienced can be "resolved" through experience with the car. For example, the unwieldy Sport mode would take some time to become accustomed with its behavior to the point where it would no longer be unwieldy.
> *


I can't agree more. Who here was perfectly smooth with the gas and clutch when learning to drive a stick? Who was perfectly smooth with the brakes the first few times they used them? Who...who gets the idea? It's a different system with its own advantages and disadvantages.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *I can't agree more. Who here was perfectly smooth with the gas and clutch when learning to drive a stick? Who was perfectly smooth with the brakes the first few times they used them? Who...who gets the idea? It's a different system with its own advantages and disadvantages. *


Learning to shift is much different than switching between two manual tranny vehicles from the same manufacturer.

Without rehashing a well-worn topic, when I had the 330i and our E36 convertible, the difference was readily apparent. I could go from having driven the 330i exclusively for a month or so and drive the E36 without and ackward shifts or acclimation period. But then, after driving the E36 for a day or so, I would always have a tough time readjusting to the pedals in the 330i, producing rough shifts and lots of head jerking.

Now when I bounce between the two E36s (with different clutches and different HP levels), I certainly notice differences. But I never require an adjustment period to shift smoothly.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Finally drove an E46 M3*



TD said:


> *And I've read some of you, whose opinions I respect, insisting there was no lag. I don't get it.
> 
> I do not recall, though, have you driven an E36 M3? *


I've told you many times that the 2002 model does NOT have the lag of the 2001. Why don't you drive one already and find out . . . is it really that tough to go drive a car that you comment on so frequently :banghead:

You'll also see the big change in the steering feel as well . . .


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

JST - I think you would love the E46 M3 if you drove it on a regular basis . . . I think you are used to your E36 and when you jump into another car that feels *different* you might find that you tend to feel more comfortable in your own car.

I know when I first drove the Jag XK8 last week I wasn't crazy about it at all, in fact I almost turned around and went back to get my rental car but then by the next day when I drove it again I felt a lot more comfortable with it and really started to enjoy it.

To sum it up, I went from disliking the car to loving it all because I got to spend some driving time with it and got used to the overall feel of it.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

TD said:


> *, I would always have a tough time readjusting to the pedals in the 330i, producing rough shifts and lots of head jerking.
> 
> Now when I bounce between the two E36s (with different clutches and different HP levels), I certainly notice differences. But I never require an adjustment period to shift smoothly. *


I never drove a 2001 330i in a manual but when driving my 2003 I find it very easy to shift smoothly. In fact a passenger in my car today actually commented how smooth the car (and driver  ) were and how they didn't even notice me shifting gears . . .
But then again I've got a lot of miles behind me driving stick since I've had one since I started driving so maybe it's the driver


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Finally drove an E46 M3*



TD said:


> *And I've read some of you, whose opinions I respect, insisting there was no lag. I don't get it.
> 
> I do not recall, though, have you driven an E36 M3? *


I haven't, so I really don't have a frame of reference for an opinion on one being "better" than the other. All I can report on is my experience with my car.

I don't know if my car is an exception that doesn't have this oft-described lag, or if I've just been "trained" by the car to know how to work around it with pure muscle memory. But I've never noticed it. It could very well be an '01 vs. '02 thing. Have you driven CD-55's '03 yet?

I also drive my car consistently hard... only on the few occasions when my wife and daughter are in the car do I take it easy in any sense. So perhaps I've trained the car? I dunno.

:dunno:

On the other hand, I've also posted in the past (truthfully) that my car was rattle-free and didn't have a sticky accelerator pedal. Both those things have changed over the course of the first 13000 miles. 

I'm due for Oil Service I (I've already had two oil changes previously), and will see if the dealer can resolve my rattle and pedal issues. Hopefully after a tightening of the moonroof rails, a sticky pedal fix, and some gummiphledge between the rear seats, all will be well again.

I just noticed a brake squeak for the first time today, too... so I'm guessing it's probably time for new front pads. I also don't know how long I'll be able to convince myself to stay with the very lame hard rubber "under-layer" of my Contis.

But I digress in a tryptophan-induced ramble.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Finally drove an E46 M3*



Plaz said:


> *I haven't, so I really don't have a frame of reference for an opinion on one being "better" than the other. All I can report on is my experience with my car.
> 
> I don't know if my car is an exception that doesn't have this oft-described lag, or if I've just been "trained" by the car to know how to work around it with pure muscle memory. But I've never noticed it. It could very well be an '01 vs. '02 thing. Have you driven CD-55's '03 yet?
> 
> ...


I trust that the '02s+ are better than the '01s. And I figure it's a matter of time until I drive one myself. But I am quite sure that, to me, it will still feel artificial. But I will assess it objectively as I'd like to believe that there's hope for future BMWs.

As for driving the piss out of your car to "train it", I'm the guy who had his first oil service come due per the OBC at only 10,700 miles on the odo. I drove the piss out of that car. And if I ever stabbed the throttle, I could almost literally count to one before the engine responded. It took most of a second. Forget heel/toe. I'd have to make an anticipatory blip.

And, not that it really matters, but you should go test drive an E36 M3 sometime just for perspective. And I intend to see if I can test drive an E46 M3 tomorrow.

As for your brakes, I'm quite sure your pads are not shot yet.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Finally drove an E46 M3*



TD said:


> *And, not that it really matters, but you should go test drive an E36 M3 sometime just for perspective. And I intend to see if I can test drive an E46 M3 tomorrow.
> *


I'm almost afraid to go test drive an E36 M3. I'm afraid I might like it way too much. And it makes more sense for me to be happy with my current car. Which I am.

I'm okay with living in that ignorance for now. I'm certain, however, if I met someone with an E36 M3 and they offered to let me drive it, I wouldn't turn them down. 

Do report on your E46 M3 experience if it happens.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

JST said:


> *It's just simply not as much fun to drive as my current car.
> 
> There are two main areas of concern (and these will be familiar). The first is the steering, which feels overboosted and lifeless compared to the rack in the E36.
> 
> ...


As someone who has had two E36 M3's, one sedan and one coupe, and who currently drives the E46 SMG M3, I must disagree.

I loved the raw feeling of the E36 M3, but I am sorry, the car IS hamster powered compared to the E46. If we had had the real E36 M3 Evo with 321HP that weights 3150lbs, then things might be different. As it stands with our hamster powered 240HP fake M3, no. IMNSHO as someone who had two E36 M3's, they are just toooooo slow compared to the E46. :bigpimp:

3rd gear in the E36 is only 82, while the E46 is a good solid 100. This is great for those freeway merging antics.:thumbup: Not to mention canyon carving, with DSC off, of course.

I agree that the steering is on the light side at slow speed, but at the speed that "Butthead" drives, it is never an issue. And on the track, it feels just right.

The DBW throttle takes a little getting used to, and I will give it to you that the E36 M3 clutch is better. But I have SMG, so there.

As for low end torque, pick a lower gear. I use 1st a lot in stop and go traffic. And am always able to make any hole I want. You signal, people try to speed up, you look and go "oh yeah? watch this." The 1st gear in gear acceleration is awesome! And way better than the E36.

My compaint with the E46 is the weight. I really could stand to lose 200 pounds (and I got the stripper model too). That being said, I would never go back to E36. I have been spoiled by the power.:angel:

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Finally drove an E46 M3*



Plaz said:


> *But I've never noticed it. It could very well be an '01 vs. '02 thing. Have you driven CD-55's '03 yet?
> 
> I also drive my car consistently hard... only on the few occasions when my wife and daughter are in the car do I take it easy in any sense. So perhaps I've trained the car? I dunno.
> 
> ...


Plaz, as I said earlier in this thread, there is a BIG difference in the DBW lag between the 2001 to 2002. I never really noticed the lag on my 2001 until I drove a 2002 and realized just how much there is . . .

As far as needing brakes at 10,000 miles, I really doubt it, however I do remember that my 01 had started to get a squeak or two with the brakes around that mileage as well. I had asked the dealer to check it out and if I remember correctly they made some adjustment or some type of service and the squeaking was gone . . .


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TD said:


> *Learning to shift is much different than switching between two manual tranny vehicles from the same manufacturer.
> 
> Now when I bounce between the two E36s (with different clutches and different HP levels), I certainly notice differences. But I never require an adjustment period to shift smoothly. *


Even with the clutches being different and having a vast difference in power, the two E36s in your garage are much more similar than the your wife's 323 and your old 330 were.

And then there's the fact that the systems used by the E36 are basically identical to what you learned to drive on and have tons of experience with. Those experiences in your formative years have created a benchmark that you will judge every other car that you ever drive. The technology between the cars that you drove early and the E36 was virtually identical (in the limited scope of this subject). It feels natural to you becuase that's how you learned it. The E46 was just the first car you drove regularly that did it differently.

What I was saying was that if you approach shifting an E46 as learning a new process, you may be better off than trying to force the E46 into your pre-existing paradigm of how transmissions/clutches/etc should work. Not to say that one is better than the other, because depending on your criteria, each is arguably better (and to head it off, the 46 is not better in terms of feel ).


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

I don't have enough experience with DBW E46s to make any sort of generalizations about them. My only data point (aside from a long ago drive in TD's 2001 330) is the M3. 

I agree with Jetfire and Clyde that if I lived with the car every day, I would notice the issues with the steering and the lag less and less. And I also agree that, compared to nearly everything else out there, the E46 M3 is a bad ass car in nearly every way. 

But, the fact remains that when compared to the previous edition, there are some noticeable areas where the new car has lost something. These issues are all the more galling in light of a) the car's other attributes, and b) that BMW had it right and got rid of it. 

I appreciate Stuka's points. If I had the opportunity to drive that fast on a daily basis (and I wish I did), I might very well find my E36 to be too pokey. And I, like everyone, notice that the S52US engine just chokes on a lack of air as the revs climb; the E46 certainly does NOT have that problem. 

I honestly did not mean to start a flame fest. I really wanted to like the E46; I had even started thinking about colors (CB/cinn or steel grey/IR). And I take nothing away from those who find the attributes of the E46 M3 more pleasing than I do.


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## glaws (Feb 21, 2002)

Well JST, I dont think you started a flame war. All I think we are trying to say is that you just didn't drive the E46 M3 enough to make a good judgment call. Many of your points are valid. The current M3 probably does weigh too much to be a "real" sports coupe. The slow-speed steering is a little over boosted (but the high-speed steering feel is very good (IMO). But as an all-around one car high speed tourer, sports coupe and occasional track car all rolled into one - it can hardly be beat in it's price range. I can only afford one car, so it is damn near perfect for me. AND I can eat, chew up and spit out most other cars on the road :bigpimp: AND I can do it carrying three other (scared shitless) people. I know, I have. Everybody is different, for me it is perfect.


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## bmwlover (Nov 9, 2002)

go d/l top gear e46 m3...very cool video of a PRO driving it and saying it's PERFECT. I've driven e46 m3 and :thumbup: . M3 KICKS ASS!!!!!!!!!


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

bmwlover said:


> *go d/l top gear e46 m3...very cool video of a PRO driving it and saying it's PERFECT. I've driven e46 m3 and :thumbup: . M3 KICKS ASS!!!!!!!!! *


Tiff Needell is an awesome driver and I'm sure he loves the E46 M3, but I've *never* seen him criticize a single car. Not even once. His fondness for it is no indication of its worth. There is some validity here, though; he typically drives things like McLarens and Ferraris, so enthusiasm for the new M3 is certainly not a negative sign.

Still, have you taken a close look at the review? I'm thinking of a tight hairpin corner, taken from outside the car towards the end of the video. You can see the car very obviously understeering, and the only thing keeping that car from sliding off the road is Tiff's very skillful application of the throttle.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

JST said:


> *I must be unlikely WRT tires. I've had to change out four or five tires in 15 years of driving, and on my prior two cars (before the M) I had situations where if I had not had a spare I would have been SOL. Changing a tire at 1:30 AM on I-96 in Detroit makes one leery of the idea of being without a spare.
> 
> NCC won't even *let* my car on the track, so the E46 would be a whooole lot faster. *


First don't get me started about NCC and not allowing certain cars, even in the Highway Safety School.

Either you are unlucky, or maybe you need to look at HOW you drive. 

The reason I say that is not to give you a hard time, but unless you are using Russian tires (not joking) there is something going on to cause you to have flats. Things like checking tire pressure on a regular basis, not hitting pot holes (and if you can't avoid them, being off the brakes as you hit them to lessen the effects). I assume you are buying and running good quality tires, and not running them way past their life.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> *Tiff Needell is an awesome driver and I'm sure he loves the E46 M3, but I've *never* seen him criticize a single car. Not even once. His fondness for it is no indication of its worth. There is some validity here, though; he typically drives things like McLarens and Ferraris, so enthusiasm for the new M3 is certainly not a negative sign.
> 
> Still, have you taken a close look at the review? I'm thinking of a tight hairpin corner, taken from outside the car towards the end of the video. You can see the car very obviously understeering, and the only thing keeping that car from sliding off the road is Tiff's very skillful application of the throttle. *


The car with stock tires will understeer. In fact it doesn't even rotate with trail braking. And I do know how to trail brake, even to the point of going to far and spinning. 

A change to 245 fronts and 265 rears fixes a LOT of that, and 245s or 265s all around is even better, I have been told. I run 245 f/265 r for the track.

Also there is a little pin on the top of each front strut tower. Remove this pin and push the strut tops inwards when you replace the nuts. Gets you about 1.5 degrees negative camber. This also helps remove understeer. And it is stock class legal.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Finally drove an E46 M3*



Stuka said:


> *As someone who has had two E36 M3's, one sedan and one coupe, and who currently drives the E46 SMG M3, I must disagree.
> 
> I loved the raw feeling of the E36 M3, but I am sorry, the car IS hamster powered compared to the E46. If we had had the real E36 M3 Evo with 321HP that weights 3150lbs, then things might be different. As it stands with our hamster powered 240HP fake M3, no. IMNSHO as someone who had two E36 M3's, they are just toooooo slow compared to the E46. :bigpimp:
> 
> ...


I agree all the way. :thumbup:

And with SMG if you aren't in a low enough gear, a couple of taps of the left paddle and you are there. Downshifts under power in S5 are QUICK.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> *First don't get me started about NCC and not allowing certain cars, even in the Highway Safety School.
> 
> Either you are unlucky, or maybe you need to look at HOW you drive.
> 
> The reason I say that is not to give you a hard time, but unless you are using Russian tires (not joking) there is something going on to cause you to have flats. Things like checking tire pressure on a regular basis, not hitting pot holes (and if you can't avoid them, being off the brakes as you hit them to lessen the effects). I assume you are buying and running good quality tires, and not running them way past their life. *


It's all potholes. On my Contour, I hit a pothole on a freeway that had appeared after a freeze and bent the rim. On the 323, I hit a pothole on the 14th st. bridge and put a bulge in the tire. The late-night incident I described above happened in a friend's Probe GT, after hitting a hole on 6 Mile in Detroit.

None of these were avoidable. My problem is not Russian tires; it's driving in cities with Russian road maintenance.


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## m3bs (Dec 24, 2001)

*re: M3 & DBW*

I've got to throw my $.02 on this one. I own a 95 M3 and a '02 330i, and even after 15K miles, I still can't get used to the DBW throttle. It's never the same response, so it is impossible to learn. As someone else mentioned, I can get back in my M3, and it feels perfectly natural, even though I've only put a couple hundred street miles on it since I got the 330.

I recently drove a new M3, and it was totally different than the 330. Normal mode seemed very sluggish, and Sport was way too responsive for the street. I'd like to try the SMG, though.

As far as I'm concerned, DBW still needs more development. I almost regret not getting the Step.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> *Tiff Needell is an awesome driver and I'm sure he loves the E46 M3, but I've *never* seen him criticize a single car. Not even once. His fondness for it is no indication of its worth. There is some validity here, though; he typically drives things like McLarens and Ferraris, so enthusiasm for the new M3 is certainly not a negative sign.
> 
> Still, have you taken a close look at the review? I'm thinking of a tight hairpin corner, taken from outside the car towards the end of the video. You can see the car very obviously understeering, and the only thing keeping that car from sliding off the road is Tiff's very skillful application of the throttle. *


You are right about Tiff, he doesn't bash cars very often. I only remember him bashing the Auid RS4 Avant and 996tt on understeer.

If I remember his RS4 quote : "and here we go, understeer, understeer, undeersteer..." Pissed him off enough to use the handbrake. He never drives anything without going sideways, and that incudes the M3.

And, JST is right on several points. Sport mode is very jerky around town, use it carefully; and the new M3 is really too powerful to use all of it on the street, right on there.

No other comments, weight, handling?


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

JST said:


> *It's all potholes. On my Contour, I hit a pothole on a freeway that had appeared after a freeze and bent the rim. On the 323, I hit a pothole on the 14th st. bridge and put a bulge in the tire. The late-night incident I described above happened in a friend's Probe GT, after hitting a hole on 6 Mile in Detroit.
> 
> None of these were avoidable. My problem is not Russian tires; it's driving in cities with Russian road maintenance. *


Sorry, but unless the hole runs from edge to edge of the road, it is avoidable. Maybe a couple of good driving schools. 

I have driven many years in the DC area and never hit a pothole hard enough and square enough to blow a tire.

In fact, I still wonder how you did it, as I just hit a curb in DC yesterday (Fri) and didn't hurt anything. And I hit it HARD. I was coming up Virginia Ave (missed the turn to the Whitehurst Freeway) and almost hit the divider where VA Ave splits to go up to 21st (??) street by State Dept. and the ohter lanes dip under. The sun was shining right down the road and the windshield could have been cleaner, and when I went to wash it, the wipers weren't clearing it well. Oh, it wasn't one of my BMWs, but it wass an E30 325is.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> *Sorry, but unless the hole runs from edge to edge of the road, it is avoidable. Maybe a couple of good driving schools.
> 
> I have driven many years in the DC area and never hit a pothole hard enough and square enough to blow a tire.
> 
> In fact, I still wonder how you did it, as I just hit a curb in DC yesterday (Fri) and didn't hurt anything. And I hit it HARD. I was coming up Virginia Ave (missed the turn to the Whitehurst Freeway) and almost hit the divider where VA Ave splits to go up to 21st (??) street by State Dept. and the ohter lanes dip under. The sun was shining right down the road and the windshield could have been cleaner, and when I went to wash it, the wipers weren't clearing it well. Oh, it wasn't one of my BMWs, but it wass an E30 325is. *


There's a perennial pothole that appears in the 14th street bridge, middle lane, about halfway across. Depending on how long it's been since they've patched it, it can be pretty severe. The night I hit it must have been particularly bad, but there's no great mystery to it. I was going about 50 mph, I hit this giant pothole, and when I stopped I noticed a bulge in the tire.

Potholes are easy to avoid when it is light and there is little traffic. When it is dark and traffic constrains your ability to swerve suddenly, they are not necessarily easy to miss.

Anyway, had you hit the same curb with 17" low profile tires, you might have had a different result. Or not.

Nate-- No real comments on weight or handling. I didn't push the car enough to comment on its behavior at anything like the limit. At 3 to 4/10s, it handles very much like my car, except stiffer, with lighter steering.


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## LIL RAJA (Feb 27, 2002)

Josh,

I suggest you test drive a few more before you draw your conclusion. Really, from the e36 m3 to e46 m3, the price is not justifiable. It does not offer that much bang over buck and it's too refined. Most enthu. would end up keeping the e36. I believe 90% of the people who are getting the e46 just have to have the latest and greatest thing or they buy it cuz it has become such an "Icon Car". The reason I am saying this is, my brother is in the same situation. He had a 01 330ci, next e36 95 m3 with obdI and now e36 me with obdII. He has test driven several e46 m3s and depending on which build and how it was broken in, the cars were vastly different. Finally after driving april build 02 bmw m3, he's convinced to get one and is working on getting one. However, we are going to keep the e36 m3 probably. The e36 was the perfect balance between power and weight. Whereas the e46 is a bit too heavy. 

Hey, you should be happy you did not like it. Now you won't be stuck with a higher car payment for sure....

what other cars are you considering? what about a 911?

LIL Raja


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

LIL RAJA said:


> *Josh,
> 
> I suggest you test drive a few more before you draw your conclusion. Really, from the e36 m3 to e46 m3, the price is not justifiable. It does not offer that much bang over buck and it's too refined. Most enthu. would end up keeping the e36. I believe 90% of the people who are getting the e46 just have to have the latest and greatest thing or they buy it cuz it has become such an "Icon Car". The reason I am saying this is, my brother is in the same situation. He had a 01 330ci, next e36 95 m3 with obdI and now e36 me with obdII. He has test driven several e46 m3s and depending on which build and how it was broken in, the cars were vastly different. Finally after driving april build 02 bmw m3, he's convinced to get one and is working on getting one. However, we are going to keep the e36 m3 probably. The e36 was the perfect balance between power and weight. Whereas the e46 is a bit too heavy.
> 
> ...


A 911 (specifically a 993 or an old Carrera) is always on my short list. One of the motivating factors behind looking was getting a bit tired of having little expensive things start to go wrong, which would at least be warranty items on a new car. In this sense, a 911 is worse than what I've got, since it'd be older and likely not covered by any kind of warranty. I also have to drive whatever I get every day, and the M3 at least has a pretense of a back seat; the 911 would be less practical.

One thought rattling around in my mind is to get two somethings; maybe a Mini Cooper to drive every day and an older 911 to use on the weekends. Alternately, depending on what the 04 Mustang ends up looking like, I may do a Mustang GT and an E30 M3, or some combination thereby. OTOH, this plan has the serious disadvantage of barely passing the laugh test with my wife, who has trouble seeing the justification for having more cars than people.


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## LIL RAJA (Feb 27, 2002)

JST said:


> *A 911 (specifically a 993 or an old Carrera) is always on my short list. One of the motivating factors behind looking was getting a bit tired of having little expensive things start to go wrong, which would at least be warranty items on a new car. In this sense, a 911 is worse than what I've got, since it'd be older and likely not covered by any kind of warranty. I also have to drive whatever I get every day, and the M3 at least has a pretense of a back seat; the 911 would be less practical.
> 
> One thought rattling around in my mind is to get two somethings; maybe a Mini Cooper to drive every day and an older 911 to use on the weekends. Alternately, depending on what the 04 Mustang ends up looking like, I may do a Mustang GT and an E30 M3, or some combination thereby. OTOH, this plan has the serious disadvantage of barely passing the laugh test with my wife, who has trouble seeing the justification for having more cars than people. *


i think a older 911 for the weekend and a mini cooper would be perfect for you. The cooper is quick around the corners and won't have any problem with the wheels (not too big). yeah, if the 04 mustang looks like anything like the pix, It would be a good candidate. But i am sure they are gonna screw up the interior with cheap plastic (good ex. corvette).

so i am assuming the e36 is going soon...

lil raja


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