# BMW Antifreeze VS TOYOTA RED antifreeze



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

OK, I know I sound a bit crazy, but I am not convinced about the 50 water / 50 BMW antifreeze mix thing.

I 'll tell you why. Every time I go to my specialist, I see one car that has either had cracked gasket, blocked cooling system, etc.

The answer I get is: "This is what water does to the engine. It slowly eats the alloy up with electrolysis, causing this to happen eventually.

Now, my car has had the original BMW factory thing for three and 1/2 years. I have just changed it recently with the 50% BMW antifreeze / 50% Table filtered water.

I must admit, I have never seen TOYOTAS having this kind of problem. It must be down to theit good quality antifreeze.

This is it. It must not be mixed with water. 
This thing is said over here(unoficcally) to be the best. It is said to last for 100k miles! It is expensive though. Comes in 4l bottles and costs 25$ the 4l. I am thinking of switching my BMW with this thing. Toyotas engines are all alloy, as well as BMWs engines.









_Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant, with its distinctive red appearance, provides maximum protection without the use of harmful silicates. This formula is extremely durable and because of its compatibility with non-metallic materials, it helps extend the life of water pump seals. _

_Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant is the same high quality red fluid that's found in all new Toyotas. Its unique formulation was developed exclusively to meet the specific requirements of your Toyota engine. Other benefits to using Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant are: _

_Will not clog radiators from silicone "gelling." _

_Will not corrode aluminum surfaces like coolants that contain borate. _

_Helps protect water pump seals_.
Ethylene-glycol type coolant should be used in your Toyota vehicle, as it provides for proper corrosion protection of aluminum components, protection at lower temperatures, and it has the ability to be used year round.

Toyota recommends Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant (factory red fluid) as the first choice when maintaining your vehicle. Toyota coolant was developed to meet the specific requirements of our engines and provides maximum protection without the use of harmful silicates. Silicates, a main ingredient in the vast majority of antifreeze coolants, can actually damage the water pump seal, causing leakage. Our coolant is a high-performance, non-silicate coolant that provides better protection for metals without deterioration of the water pump seal.

Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant is available at your local Toyota dealership.


----------



## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

MMMMMmmmmmmmmmbut Toyota's have problems with motors getting destroyed by sludging of the oil, regardless of the use of conventional or synthetic?

Maybe Cyprus is different in terms of the water people use, but using 50/50 BMW AF and distilled water, I've seen people going hundreds of thousands of miles on BMW engines with regular coolant changes and system maintenance.

What I do see is that BMW has relatively short-lived water pumps. If one does not change water pumps at 60-80K miles preventatively, they are begging for overheating problems. And overheating problems lead to blown headgaskets and warped and cracked heads.

As far as the Toyota AF, it's probably just pre-mixed down to a 50/50 mixture, ready to use. Much easier and more accurate than making your own mix, to be certain.


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

MicahO said:


> MMMMMmmmmmmmmmbut Toyota's have problems with motors getting destroyed by sludging of the oil, regardless of the use of conventional or synthetic?
> 
> Maybe Cyprus is different in terms of the water people use, but using 50/50 BMW AF and distilled water, I've seen people going hundreds of thousands of miles on BMW engines with regular coolant changes and system maintenance.
> 
> ...


Why is it that BMW doesn't offer a pre-mixed version of their coolant?


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Um, all coolants have water in it. It's just a matter of whether it has less of it in the bottle (concentrated) or more (ready-to-pour).

Japanese coolants have different checmical content than european coolants, and mixing or substituting may cause abnormal problems with components.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

robg said:


> Why is it that BMW doesn't offer a pre-mixed version of their coolant?


Water costs a lot to ship.


----------



## ak330i (Jul 17, 2002)

The way i understand it is that water has very high thermal capacity, meaning it can absorb a huge amount of heat. You can use alcohol as coolant if you can supply large enough quantity and at a fast enough flow rate. But it's impractical in automotive application. Pure 100% alcohol or other chemicals are used as coolant in industrial applicaitons, but water is a good choice coz it's cheap, stable and non-toxic.


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

I'm thinking that your problems may lie with the water. I've seen enough people go for a long enough time on BMW coolant - and seen first hand what off-the-shelf coolants did to the coolant system on my 325e - that I'm sticking with BMW coolant. But it is hard if you don't have access to water that you know is decently pure. Thought about setting up a home still?


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

I dont think that it is good to compare the toyota item with off the shelf products. 

I tihnk it is not by luck that TOYOTAS are rated the most reliable cars in the world. Yes, they are excellent engineered, but so are BMWS. 

I think the excuse of an expensive shipment of ready mixed coolant fluid is quite cheap, to say the least. 

If Toyota can do it, I am sure BMW can do it, which is a more upmarket vehicle manufacturer.

I think the reasons are much more dark. The more oxidisinfg agents you have in your engine, the sooner you will need to have a re-builf of some sort. DADA!!!

More money for BMW. A Head gasket for a 2.2l 320i (M54) costs 2000$ almost here in Cyprus. I would imagine in the US the price to be around $1.000.


Now, having seen so many vehicles suffering from this failure, and knowing for sure that this pre-mixed fluid is the best, I will definitely put it in my BMW engine. And I bet you, it will be far better than the 50/50 mix, and even the distilled water mix.

I mean, for Gods sake, BMW main dealer puts TAP WATER mixed 50/50 with antifreeze. DO YOU KNOW WHAT TAP WATER IS HERE IN CYPRUS???

It is De-Salted SEA WATER!!!!! Yes. De-salted sea water. Due to the lack of rainfall the recent years, the GVMT has installed these plants, which de-salt the sea water.

That is what the main dealer and most mechanics(Well besides Honda and TOYoTA here in Cyprus) put in their vehicles. And gues who has the better rates regarding reliability over here??

1. TOYOTA
2. (Really close HONDA)

Now, who said that BMW antifreeze is a good choice????



Oh, yes I forgot. BMW DUBAI uses BMW pre-mixed antifreeze from the factory.I know cause the GM is Cypriot and he told me. So this product really exists.......What is the Part number?????????


----------



## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

Fifty_Cent said:


> I mean, for Gods sake, BMW main dealer puts TAP WATER mixed 50/50 with antifreeze. DO YOU KNOW WHAT TAP WATER IS HERE IN CYPRUS???
> 
> It is De-Salted SEA WATER!!!!! Yes. De-salted sea water. Due to the lack of rainfall the recent years, the GVMT has installed these plants, which de-salt the sea water.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like the problem is the dealer's service behavior, not the coolant. That same coolant is used all over the world by BMW dealers. If your local dealer is putting de-salted sea water in your car, the problem is the water, not the base coolant.


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

MicahO said:


> Sounds to me like the problem is the dealer's service behavior, not the coolant. That same coolant is used all over the world by BMW dealers. If your local dealer is putting de-salted sea water in your car, the problem is the water, not the base coolant.


Yeap, agree on that, but how can BMW allow such a behaviour from the ONLY authorised and main BMW dealer on the island??

Still to my question:

My car now has 50% drinking water in it, 50% coolant. I think this is not really good. Well, at least it is not sea water!!:yikes:

Coming back to my question......do you think the premixed toyota antifreeze will be good to use in a bmw 6 cylinder alloy engine?


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Fifty_Cent said:


> Coming back to my question......do you think the premixed toyota antifreeze will be good to use in a bmw 6 cylinder alloy engine?


The engine will probably be fine. The gaskets and plastic bits (radiator endtanks, necks, waterpump) will suffer over time.

Read up about what happens to VW VR6 engines when you switch from 'old' VW coolant to 'new' VW coolant. THey are BOTH VW coolants. But you switch it wrong and it will destroy the motor.

Like I said before, the makeup of Japanese vs european coolants is different. BMW specifically states that their coolant must be NAP-free (nitrite/amine/phosphate). But Japanese coolant almost universally has high doses of phosphate. On the other hand, european coolants have silicates in them whereas Japanese ones have none.


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

Kaz said:


> The engine will probably be fine. The gaskets and plastic bits (radiator endtanks, necks, waterpump) will suffer over time.
> 
> Read up about what happens to VW VR6 engines when you switch from 'old' VW coolant to 'new' VW coolant. THey are BOTH VW coolants. But you switch it wrong and it will destroy the motor.
> 
> Like I said before, the makeup of Japanese vs european coolants is different. BMW specifically states that their coolant must be NAP-free (nitrite/amine/phosphate). But Japanese coolant almost universally has high doses of phosphate. On the other hand, european coolants have silicates in them whereas Japanese ones have none.


KAZ, I am reposting this because I dont think you read it, and your opinnion really counts for me.(as for you all guys, dont misunderstand me)

"_Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant, with its distinctive red appearance, provides maximum protection without the use of harmful silicates. This formula is extremely durable and because of its compatibility with non-metallic materials, it helps extend the life of water pump seals. _

_Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant is the same high quality red fluid that's found in all new Toyotas. Its unique formulation was developed exclusively to meet the specific requirements of your Toyota engine. Other benefits to using Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant are: _

_Will not clog radiators from silicone "gelling." _
_Will not corrode aluminum surfaces like coolants that contain borate. _
_Helps protect water pump seals_.
Ethylene-glycol type coolant should be used in your Toyota vehicle, as it provides for proper corrosion protection of aluminum components, protection at lower temperatures, and it has the ability to be used year round."

Oh, I forgot, radiators and water pumps will fail eventually, anyways. Cannot blame it onn the coolant...


----------



## ak330i (Jul 17, 2002)

Fifty_Cent said:


> KAZ, I am reposting this because I dont think you read it, and your opinnion really counts for me.(as for you all guys, dont misunderstand me)
> 
> "_Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant, with its distinctive red appearance, provides maximum protection without the use of harmful silicates. This formula is extremely durable and because of its compatibility with non-metallic materials, it helps extend the life of water pump seals. _
> 
> ...


Never trust 100% what manufacturers or any seller say. They are sales pitch and are designed to get a sale. Of coz Toyota says other coolants are not as good as theirs, but you know what, the margins on parts like these are huge and no manufacturer will let it go and want you to buy generic. By the same token, just because McDonald's says its food is healthy doesn't mean it is.


----------



## ak330i (Jul 17, 2002)

i think changing engine oil more frequently do more for your engine than any improvement you can find switching among Toyota, BMW and self-mix 50/50 coolant.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Fifty_Cent said:


> "_Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant, with its distinctive red appearance, provides maximum protection *without the use of harmful silicates.* This formula is extremely durable and because of its compatibility with non-metallic materials, it helps extend the life of water pump seals. _


Well, this just supported what I just posted. No silicates. This is a NO NO for european cars (with the exception of VAG cars that use the pink 'G12' OAT coolant, which is a different story altogether).


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

ak330i said:


> Never trust 100% what manufacturers or any seller say. They are sales pitch and are designed to get a sale. Of coz Toyota says other coolants are not as good as theirs, but you know what, the margins on parts like these are huge and no manufacturer will let it go and want you to buy generic. By the same token, just because McDonald's says its food is healthy doesn't mean it is.


no, I said " it is unofficially said in garages" that the toyota product is the best.

So, whats your point?


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

Kaz said:


> Well, this just supported what I just posted. No silicates. This is a NO NO for european cars (with the exception of VAG cars that use the pink 'G12' OAT coolant, which is a different story altogether).


Yes, but it didnt say that it has the other stuff (nitrite/amine/phosphate) in it, did it?

Anyways, does the colour has anything to do with it???

Why is it that european cars must not use NAP collants, where japanese must not use silicates coolants>?? especially since both toyota and bmw engines are aluminium?


----------



## ak330i (Jul 17, 2002)

Fifty_Cent said:


> no, I said " it is unofficially said in garages" that the toyota product is the best.
> 
> So, whats your point?


My point is that they are all similar in term of coolant performance. Each is designed for an application, which differ between Toyota and BMW. There are so many different formula even within Toyota Red. One onsale in Asia is totally different from one sold in Northeast US, because Asia has high humdity with higher pollution and acid rain.

Genuine Toyota Long Life Antifreeze Coolant, with its distinctive red appearance, _*provides maximum protection*_ without the use of harmful silicates. This formula is _*extremely durable * _  and because of its compatibility with non-metallic materials, it helps extend the life of water pump seals

Every manufacturer would say its coolant provides maximium protection and is extremely durable. Afterall, most people can't tell the difference in performance without a lab.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Fifty_Cent said:


> Yes, but it didnt say that it has the other stuff (nitrite/amine/phosphate) in it, did it?
> 
> Anyways, does the colour has anything to do with it???
> 
> Why is it that european cars must not use NAP collants, where japanese must not use silicates coolants>?? especially since both toyota and bmw engines are aluminium?


Colors are meaningless now. Yellow, green, blue, orange, red, pink. SOme of those are the same, some ar not.

I'm not a chemist or metallurgist, but I'm willing to bet that each manufacturer (hopefully) picks materials and coolants that are compatible with each other. That's not just the engine and radiator, but includes gaskets, hoses, water pump components, thermostats, etc. And radiators are no longer made of one material, either. And 'aluminum' isn't pure aluminum, either. They're all alloys, and those other alloying materials may react differently to different chemicals.

Go ahead and use what you want. But you've been warned. And if something happens because you decided to switch, you don't have anyone else to blame.


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

Kaz said:


> Colors are meaningless now. Yellow, green, blue, orange, red, pink. SOme of those are the same, some ar not.
> 
> I'm not a chemist or metallurgist, but I'm willing to bet that each manufacturer (hopefully) picks materials and coolants that are compatible with each other. That's not just the engine and radiator, but includes gaskets, hoses, water pump components, thermostats, etc. And radiators are no longer made of one material, either. And 'aluminum' isn't pure aluminum, either. They're all alloys, and those other alloying materials may react differently to different chemicals.
> 
> Go ahead and use what you want. But you've been warned. And if something happens because you decided to switch, you don't have anyone else to blame.


Hey, I am just trying to get opinions here, the decision will be mine at the end of the day, so is the responsibility, isnt it?

Now, my car has 50% filtered drinking water, 50% BMW antifreeze. How bad can that be?


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Fifty_Cent said:


> Hey, I am just trying to get opinions here, the decision will be mine at the end of the day, so is the responsibility, isnt it?
> 
> Now, my car has 50% filtered drinking water, 50% BMW antifreeze. How bad can that be?


Considering you're arguing against FACTS, it seems you hardly care about OPINIONS. In fact, it seems this isn't isolated to just this thread.

:tsk: Feels like I'm talking to a 6-year-old.


----------



## chris_1001 (Jun 3, 2004)

Use DISTILED or deionized water. Not tap, not filtered, not Disanti...

Even quality filtered water has some harmful stuff in it...


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

Kaz said:


> Considering you're arguing against FACTS, it seems you hardly care about OPINIONS. In fact, it seems this isn't isolated to just this thread.
> 
> :tsk: Feels like I'm talking to a 6-year-old.


Yeah, Just because I am trying to get some statement regarding this particular antifreeze, I am a 6 year old. Hey, I am not an antifreeze expert, I am just a 30 year old Engineer with an MBA.

BTW, you didnt state that the TOYOTA antifreeze has these materials in it.
-nitrite/amine/phosphate-
You said BMW reccomends non NAP coolants.

So, 
1. is the TOYOTA RED one with, or without these materials???

Kaz, feel free to point ANY other thread that you think I acted as a 6 year old as you say, and repost it here on this thread.

Anyways, this conversation with you and me is over for my part. I guess forums are like the real world,there are good guys, and there is always the occasional jerk.

P.S. Will someone who knows about the TOYOTA antifreeze help abit here?


----------

