# Calling all 2002 facelift haters!



## Dan (Dec 27, 2001)

I like the new look of the '02 models now, although it took me a while to warm up to them. As I looked through all the pictures posted on this topic, the pre-02's are starting to look just a little bit dated.


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## OJ330i (Jan 25, 2002)

Dan said:


> *As I looked through all the pictures posted on this topic, the pre-02's are starting to look just a little bit dated. *


This is exactly what I am trying to say. I never said the pre-facelift was ugly at all. The new 2002 w/facelift just simply looks better.


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

OJ330i said:


> *
> The new 2002 w/facelift just simply looks better. *


I don't blame you for being so adamant about it and for taking the issue so personally. Frankly I'm surprised so many people flatly call the facelift ugly when they know other members of the forum own the car and find it beautiful. I'm not saying we all have to agree, but I think people are harsher than they need to be.

It's no wonder so many 2002 owners start the game with something to prove. *You don't have to convince me that your car looks better*... all that matters is that you like it.

kurt


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Reaction when seeing a 2002 sedan: I cringe.

Reaction when seeing a 2002 A4: I Smile.

I'm voting with my wallet and not going to upgrade to a 2003 330i as I had originally intended to after the steering debacle ended. But I'm not prepared to hop into an A4 until the S4 comes out. We all get to put our money where our mouths are.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

JPinTO said:


> *Reaction when seeing a 2002 sedan: I cringe.
> 
> Reaction when seeing a 2002 A4: I Smile.
> 
> I'm voting with my wallet and not going to upgrade to a 2003 330i as I had originally intended to after the steering debacle ended. But I'm not prepared to hop into an A4 until the S4 comes out. We all get to put our money where our mouths are. *


So, your decision will be based purely on looks? :dunno: You know the S4 will be more expensive than a 330, right? We've been reading that it will be cheaper than an M3, etc, but I'm willing to bet it will cost 6-7K more than a loaded 330i = 3-4K less than a pretty loaded M3. Not to mention the markup...

Anyway, the new S4 sounds very promising (although I doubt it'll be balanced as well as an E46 M3 - weight, weight distribution, etc).

PS: I'm NOT factoring in 4-door vs Coupe.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> Anyway, the new S4 sounds very promising (although I doubt it'll be balanced as well as an E46 M3 - weight, weight distribution, etc).
> *


That is the problem with Audis. They look pretty, but drive terribly compared to BMWs. The new S4 may have M5 weight on a smaller car :dunno:

understeer...understeer...understeer...


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)




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## thaydith (Apr 2, 2002)

JPinTO said:


> *Reaction when seeing a 2002 sedan: I cringe.
> 
> Reaction when seeing a 2002 A4: I Smile.
> 
> I'm voting with my wallet and not going to upgrade to a 2003 330i as I had originally intended to after the steering debacle ended. But I'm not prepared to hop into an A4 until the S4 comes out. We all get to put our money where our mouths are. *


Good then you can annoy people in an Audi forum. You already put your money where your mouth was when you bought a 323 instead of a 328.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> That is the problem with Audis. They look pretty, but drive terribly compared to BMWs. The new S4 may have M5 weight on a smaller car :dunno:
> 
> understeer...understeer...understeer... *


Well, you know my opinion about Audi's...  Honestly, I don't think my former 98 A4 1.8T w/quattro drove "terribly". Sure, I have more fun driving my 325i, which does drive/handle/perform better...

That's correct. Audi's are damn heavy. But I bet you the new S4 will be a very capable car...

Yup. AWD... AWD... AWD...  Understeer comes with the territory... :bigpimp:


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> Well, you know my opinion about Audi's...  Honestly, I don't think my former 98 A4 1.8T w/quattro drove "terribly". Sure, I have more fun driving my 325i, which does drive/handle/perform better... *


Notice that I said "terribly compared to" 

Yea, the new Audis are huge, but the old A4 1.8T was acually pretty lean and IMO, looks better than the current one.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

thaydith said:


> *
> 
> Good then you can annoy people in an Audi forum. You already put your money where your mouth was when you bought a 323 instead of a 328. *


:lmao:


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

thaydith said:


> *
> 
> Good then you can annoy people in an Audi forum. You already put your money where your mouth was when you bought a 323 instead of a 328. *


:lmao: Ouch... Like Nelly would say: "It's getting _hot in herre_..." :lmao:

Seriously though, what's wrong with buying a 323? I bought a 323Ci back in 2000 because I couldn't bring myself to spend another 6K on 23HP/25ft-lbs (i.e. 328Ci)... I thought that was a lot of money for those extra ponies/torque... :dunno:


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

I like my '02. I'm the only one that has to. :flipoff: the rest of you. Go vote with your wallet. STFU and quit :bawling: 

:angel:


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> :lmao: Ouch... Like Nelly would say: "It's getting hot in herre..." :lmao:
> 
> Seriously though, what's wrong with buying a 323? I bought a 323Ci back in 2000 because I couldn't bring myself to spend another 6K on 23HP/25ft-lbs (i.e. 328Ci)... I thought that was a lot of money for those extra ponies/torque... :dunno: *


328Ci RULES!!!!!! :bigpimp:


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> 328Ci RULES!!!!!! :bigpimp: *


323/325's do too...


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> 323/325's do too...   *


I'm shure there are some that will say the 328 is superior to all E46s 

I think the M3 is :bigpimp:


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> I think the M3 is :bigpimp: *


I _have_ to agree with you...


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> I have to agree with you...  *


Edit:

Damn Nate, now I'm missing my M3...


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## bmwguynj (Jun 12, 2002)

I'd say the rims definitely make the car. That is why you go for the sports package.

You could have those same 17" Sport Package Rims on a 2001 or 2002 3 series and both cars will look great even with different face lifts.


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## LarryN (Dec 24, 2001)

Just about everybody (except Alex) is sticking up for what they own (me too). I happen to really like the front of my car, much more so than the 323i SPP that I just got rid of.

What ticks the bejeezus out of me is people coming out and saying it's UGLY. What I mean is not saying that it's their opinion, rather saying it's plain ugly.... and argue back to people who own said "ugly" cars...

Realistically, it's not _that _ much different to have such a swing in loving and hating it.

OJ, why'd you have to stir this up anyway? Did you want people to tell you they didn't like your car? I'm really curious, because I saw this post when it was brand new, with no replies, and expected most of these replies (both for and STRONGLY against).


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> So, your decision will be based purely on looks? :dunno: You know the S4 will be more expensive than a 330, right? We've been reading that it will be cheaper than an M3, etc, but I'm willing to bet it will cost 6-7K more than a loaded 330i = 3-4K less than a pretty loaded M3. Not to mention the markup...
> 
> ...


It's not all about looks, but having a car that doesn't make me cringe when I look at it, is important. I had a loaner 02 320i a few weeks ago and I went to lunch forgetting I had it. I physically stopped and cringed when I saw the 320i in my car's normal place. That's not the response I want when I look at my car.

A 330i would be a logical upgrade as my 323i is 3 years old now and coming off lease in 2 weeks. But I will not buy a car that I perceive (!) as uglier than my current one. You kind of want your next car to be better than your current one.

I've have already determined that my next car will have 270-300hp to get the kind of highway acceleration that I want. The 30 hp upgrade to a 330i isn't going to cut it. I'm dreaming about my old Talon TSI AWD that was modded to almost 300 hp. That thing was ballistic.

I wish that BMW would bring out a high 200 hp E46... but I doubt it. I'm concerned about longevity of the 3.2L M3 engine. If that was detuned a little to favour longevity at the expense of some power, it would be tempting (to me).

A lot of potential products are coming out that hold my interest. I have a strong preference towards 4 doors for practicality's sake. Since BMW will not be bringing out a M3/4, the S4 is the only real alternative.

The other alternative will be the E60 5-series. Either the 3.0 Twin Turbo or 4.4L Valvetronic engines will suffice.

So basically except for the S4, I'm waiting for BMW to come out with higher power Valvetronic engines and 6 speed trannies. Hopefully they won't be so ugly that I wouldn't want them either. If BMW continues to produce design abominations then I will simply move to Audi. The S4 will be more expensive than a 330, but the additional power & 6 speed will be well worth it to me.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> :lmao: Ouch... Like Nelly would say: "It's getting hot in herre..." :lmao:
> 
> Seriously though, what's wrong with buying a 323? I bought a 323Ci back in 2000 because I couldn't bring myself to spend another 6K on 23HP/25ft-lbs (i.e. 328Ci)... I thought that was a lot of money for those extra ponies/torque... :dunno: *


I made the exact same decision. The 2.8L wasn't worth the extra money. Then in 2001 I was going to upgrade to the 330 except for the steering debacle which was resolved in 2002... then the designs went ugly.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WIth the sport pkg, the 2002 looks nice. I could live with it, if I could get one. The minor downside is the overly wide grill. The old grill is more proportional.


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## LarryN (Dec 24, 2001)

JPinTO said:


> *WIth the sport pkg, the 2002 looks nice. I could live with it, if I could get one. The minor downside is the overly wide grill. The old grill is more proportional. *


Woohoo! A concession! :thumbup: Like I said, those 2 front ends are not that different from each other.

Regarding the grill... I would totally agree with you regarding the width of the grill, if BMW kept the hood with it's lines they way it was in 2001. I think that the wider grill does work due to the hood creases now going out ot the A pillars, instead of travelling nearly parrallel to the sides of the car. Although it gives the hood more of a 5 series look (makes the car look a little wider too, imho).


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## ChetG (Dec 26, 2001)

come on JP, just admit it, the 02 simply looks like the subtle improved evolution it is. To call a car ugly (especially when so many here proudly own them) because of some of its bumper designs is utterly mindless. It would be great to see you make the logical upgrade to the 330, and somehow get the M-tech bumper (shudnt b 2 difficult) fitted. The s4, while hugely potent, feels like a typical underdamped, overweight VAG effort IMO.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

LarryN said:


> *
> 
> Woohoo! A concession! :thumbup: Like I said, those 2 front ends are not that different from each other.
> 
> Regarding the grill... I would totally agree with you regarding the width of the grill, if BMW kept the hood with it's lines they way it was in 2001. I think that the wider grill does work due to the hood creases now going out ot the A pillars, instead of travelling nearly parrallel to the sides of the car. Although it gives the hood more of a 5 series look (makes the car look a little wider too, imho). *


As others have said in the thread, I don't have an issue with the US 330 sport pkg bumpers. But those skirts do not come to Canada. So CDN 330i SP bumpers are the EXACT same ones as the 325 bumpers... which is what makes the CDN 330i undesirable to me. If others like them, fine- enjoy.

With the US sport bumpers, I can live with the flared nostrils and slightly cross eyed lights, and other mild differences that aren't any better than the pre-02's.... just different.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

ChetG said:


> *come on JP, just admit it, the 02 simply looks like the subtle improved evolution it is. To call a car ugly (especially when so many here proudly own them) because of some of its bumper designs is utterly mindless. It would be great to see you make the logical upgrade to the 330, and somehow get the M-tech bumper (shudnt b 2 difficult) fitted. The s4, while hugely potent, feels like a typical underdamped, overweight VAG effort IMO. *


ChetG--- I like your car, OK! Unlike Europe, we can't order car's picking and choosing the options we want.

What I refer to as ugly are the standard bumpers... and yes I find them ugly. Whether that is mindless or not, it's my personal preference. The M-aero skirts that are available in the US are nice... but I can't get them short of buying a OE body kit and having it painted after the fact.... something I'm not prepared to do.

The M-Technic sport skirts are drop dead gorgeous.

Here was a M-Technic equipped 330i at the Toronto auto show that was drop dead gorgeous. Again, I can't order one like this... it was a special BMW Canada car:










That said, other than styling, the 330 is underpowered for my needs. Perhaps if the Valvetronic 3.0 comes in with an extra 20 or so hp.

As for underdamped S4's... the standard BMW sport suspension is too sloppy and requires upgrading, something the S4 will also.


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## ChetG (Dec 26, 2001)

WOW, is that estoril blue???,

btw, no offence intended JP, just saying that i think the bumper should be blamed, not the whole car. it seems the ideal car (apart from the power thing) for you would be an 02 euro sport model, which comes with the M pack, including much firmer suspension, along with the 02 mods, a fantastic car to drive, which inarguably slaughters the s4 handling wise.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

It's estoril. :thumbup:


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> Notice that I said "terribly compared to"
> 
> Yea, the new Audis are huge, but the old A4 1.8T was acually pretty lean and IMO, looks better than the current one. *


Yep my 98 A4 is a light, compared to today standards, 3000 pounds even. New A4 added a few hundred pounds to this Add quattro, some options, the V6 and you are almost pushing 4000 pounds.

One of the reason I went with the bimmer wagon over the A4 wagon was it is a lot lighter. Bimmer is still heavy in reality at about 3400pounds.

Why can car companies start lower the weight of these cars? I guess HP sell cars so they dont worrry about it.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Jeff_DML said:


> *
> 
> Yep my 98 A4 is a light, compared to today standards, 3000 pounds even. New A4 added a few hundred pounds to this Add quattro, some options, the V6 and you are almost pushing 4000 pounds.
> 
> ...


My car weighs in at 3220lbs, yes, I weighed it. Not too bad.

This is what happens when car companies (BMW) decide to lower weight.










*drool*


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Yep, I am hoping the CSL production rumor will come true. Ready to sign up with the wait list.


I would say Lotus Elise is the best example of a light way car, guess a little too extreme for most people

Jeff


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Jeff_DML said:


> *
> I would say Lotus Elise is the best example of a light way car, guess a little too extreme for most people
> *


yup, the Elise is fantasic, but unreasonable for almost anyone to drive every day. Most people need a 4-5 seat car, BMW has done a pretty decent job on cutting it down, the E46 is fairly light compared to its competetors. If you want to cut the weight, tear out all your insulation to the bare metal, remove your A/C and stereo. You will probably shed about 350lbs


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> M68s are played out too :thumbdwn:
> 
> *


Played out ? ? ?

M68's are played out only on this board, in the real world I see more of your wheels then M68's . . .

I rarely see a sport package 330


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Oh and one more thing Nate .. . .


:flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: 



heh heh . . . you know I can't resist . . .


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Alan F said:


> *
> 
> Played out ? ? ?
> 
> ...


umm...no

M68s are everywhere, type 43s are much less common. Lots of SP cars here. See 5+ 330 SPs per day. Maybe SP is more popular where there is no snow :dunno:


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## OJ330i (Jan 25, 2002)

LarryN said:


> *
> 
> OJ, why'd you have to stir this up anyway? Did you want people to tell you they didn't like your car? I'm really curious, because I saw this post when it was brand new, with no replies, and expected most of these replies (both for and STRONGLY against). *


Because of the folowing reasons.

1. I was surfing .org and found the great pic of the white E46's. It was the first time I had seen a good side by side comparison, although the original poster didn't intend for it to be a comparo. But it had all the same colors, All w/o SP, and all un-modded.

2. I'm tired of people telling trolls who ask if they should get a 2002 or wait till later, to get one now before it gets bangled like the sedan facelift. I personally think my car is one of the best looking E46's in my area (Mannheim, Germany) and with a modest drop it would definately be the best.

3. Since this is the first side by side comparo I have seen, its probably the first that many people have seen. And I figured that if more people see them side by side they might start to realize that the facelift does actually look very good.

But now I realize that some people live with their head up their ass and don't wanna see the truth for what it is. The pre-02 is a nice looking car that I could live with. But the Facelifted 02 is one sexy son of a B!tch, that is very visually appealing.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

Jeff_DML said:


> *
> 
> Yep my 98 A4 is a light, compared to today standards, 3000 pounds even. New A4 added a few hundred pounds to this Add quattro, some options, the V6 and you are almost pushing 4000 pounds.
> 
> ...


Not that it's too relevant, but your A4 weighs 2877lbs if it's manual FWD. 3130lbs if it's manual quattro. Although quattro models are heavier, I kind of like them better. As you may know, Audi's take on AWD is different than BMW's, and quattro cars are better balanced than FWD's (i.e. weight distribution).

Yup, the new A4 is damn heavy. The new A4 cabrio weighs ~3,800lbs. :yikes: New generation Audi's are getting MUCH heavier than previous generation ones. Sure, BMW's are too, but NOT as MUCH. See, that's my gripe when people bash the E46. Is it heavier? Yup. But look at the competition.

Well, BMW is doing that. Another example (in addition to the CSL), will be (?) the upcoming Z5. Audi's doing that too - ASF. Hopefully, the new S4 will exploit that technology.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

OJ330i said:


> *
> 
> But now I realize that some people live with their head up their ass and don't wanna see the truth for what it is. The pre-02 is a nice looking car that I could live with. But the Facelifted 02 is one sexy son of a B!tch, that is very visually appealing. *


I'm with you on this one :thumbup:


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

In the current Road & Track 11 car comparison... if you look at the vehicle weights, the 330i was the lightest car in the entire comparison by at least 100 lbs to several 100lbs. I think the G35 was the next lightest by at least 100 lbs.

I was amazed at how fat this segment of vehicles is getting... some of them are pushing 3800-3900 lbs. They all need serious weight reduction.


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