# Travelling Impressions of Germany



## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

My wife and I have been to Germany six times and we have always been impressed by Germany. The US pales in comparison to modern day Germany. German cities and towns are generally immaculate in comparison to American cities. On the Munich subway you could eat lunch off of the floor of the subway cars. They run precisely on time. German infrastructure and public buildings are incredibly well crafted and designed to last several times longer than the typical US counterparts. Plus they are much more energy efficient and green. The Munich airport is amazing in comparison to its poorly constructed and poorly maintained US airport. Plus the typical US airport is very poorly maintained in comparison. German cities and towns reflect the priority within German society that is placed on the common good. German cities and towns are inherently walkable and very cohesive. The pedestrian and cyclist gets equal consideration to the automobile in urban design for German cities. Reflecting American society's emphasis on the rights of the individual at the expense of the common good, American cities are less cohesive and less aesthetic. German workers across the spectrum are well trained and extremely professional in what they do. You can go to a fast food restaurant in Germany and the place is immaculate and the staff are incredibly professional. In a German hotel if an issue arises with your room, which is incredibly rare, it is addressed very promptly and professionally with a sense of embarrassment that things were less than perfect. My wife and I have been on hiking trails in German mountains and they are absolutely immaculate. If it is rainy out Germans stay off the trails because they don't want them all mucked up for the community as a whole. One of the reasons that wifey and I do European delivery every 3 years is that Germany itself is such a great place to visit.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

I dunno, the NYC subways also look like someone ate off the floor. Or at least some of the dried puddles there look like they had food bits in them.


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## DXK (Jun 1, 2007)

pharding said:


> My wife and I have been to Germany six times and we have always been impressed by Germany. The US pales in comparison to modern day Germany. German cities and towns are generally immaculate in comparison to American cities. On the Munich subway you could eat lunch off of the floor of the subway cars. They run precisely on time. German infrastructure and public buildings are incredibly well crafted and designed to last several times longer than the typical US counterparts. Plus they are much more energy efficient and green. The Munich airport is amazing in comparison to its poorly constructed and poorly maintained US airport. Plus the typical US airport is very poorly maintained in comparison. German cities and towns reflect the priority within German society that is placed on the common good. German cities and towns are inherently walkable and very cohesive. The pedestrian and cyclist gets equal consideration to the automobile in urban design for German cities. Reflecting American society's emphasis on the rights of the individual at the expense of the common good, American cities are less cohesive and less aesthetic. German workers across the spectrum are well trained and extremely professional in what they do. You can go to a fast food restaurant in Germany and the place is immaculate and the staff are incredibly professional. In a German hotel if an issue arises with your room, which is incredibly rare, it is addressed very promptly and professionally with a sense of embarrassment that things were less than perfect. My wife and I have been on hiking trails in German mountains and they are absolutely immaculate. If it is rainy out Germans stay off the trails because they don't want them all mucked up for the community as a whole. One of the reasons that wifey and I do European delivery every 3 years is that Germany itself is such a great place to visit.


They don't always admit they're wrong, though, often they blame the user. Their approach is basically "we designed it, that means it is correct". Only after it's been proven beyond the reasonable doubt, would they admit a mistake.
Also, the top salaries there are much lower than in U.S. And I don't mean Wall Street bonuses. I am talking Sr. Managerial type of position. Although poor, lower middle class, and most of middle class fare better, the upper middle class has it better over here. Starting a business is not as easy, either. I know many people who work and live there, and when I paint the picture of Germany similar to yours, they have plenty of counterarguments, so it's not always greener on other side. However, public infrastructure is in much better shape, no doubt about that. 
When I travel there, I see Germany exactly as you've described.


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## ViaPerturbatio (Jul 25, 2009)

I agree that Germany has many positive attributes. I have enjoyed all of my visits there. I believe that the good and bad exist in all places as do the advantages and disadvantages.

That is the beauty of getting multiple perspectives. I have many German friends many of whom, after spending some time in the U.S. absolutely fall in love with it and don't want to leave. I've seen even the proudest of Germans "convert." The majority note a few common reasons: far more freedom and fewer roadblocks to build your own success; more opportunity; more land; the middle class can afford a nice sized home on a decent amount of land and have good amenities in close proximity to work; the U.S. has a lower cost of living; Americans are generally nice people and easy to get along with. On the other hand, they have also noted that America/Americans are less tidy or orderly; Americans work too many hours (German law provides min. 4 weeks vacation to start with and 7 Statutory Holidays); Americans get worse employment and public benefits (usually referring to vacation, health or retirement).

When I travel abroad I enjoy discovering how other countries and cultures differ from my own. I've come to appreciate many other countries for their more positive attributes that invite re-visiting. My travels abroad, however, have also enhanced my vision of the positive atrributes of my homeland and though I have and could live in other countries, I am always glad to come back home.


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

DXK said:


> They don't always admit they're wrong, though, often they blame the user. Their approach is basically "we designed it, that means it is correct". ....


That has not been my experience with BMW. BMW and BMW FS have always treated me well and every reasonable request or issue has been addressed promptly and fairly. Although I am prone to remind them that I have leased X BMW's. If BMW's were made in Italy, they would have technical issues, parts would not be available, promises would be made to fix the problem promptly only to be never fixed.

In general I much prefer to buy German products. You can count on the product being well designed, incredibly well crafted, and prompt technical support. I have had great experiences with BMW, Festool, Leica, Zeiss, Stevens bicycles, etc.


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## DXK (Jun 1, 2007)

pharding said:


> That has not been my experience with BMW. BMW and BMW FS have always treated me well and every reasonable request or issue has been addressed promptly and fairly. Although I am prone to remind them that I have leased X BMW's. If BMW's were made in Italy, they would have technical issues, parts would not be available, promises would be made to fix the problem promptly only to be never fixed.
> 
> In general I much prefer to buy German products. You can count on the product being well designed, incredibly well crafted, and prompt technical support. I have had great experiences with BMW, Festool, Leica, Zeiss, Stevens bicycles, etc.


I agree with you there; I always try to buy products made in Germany; all my home appliances are made there. Their manufacturing is second to none; however, U.S. is leading in discoveries including number of Noble price winners by a large margin.


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## DXK (Jun 1, 2007)

ViaPerturbatio said:


> Americans get worse employment and public benefits (usually referring to vacation, health or retirement).
> 
> .


There is a different approach: in Germany nobody invests in 401K (defined contribution)
Mostly it's company benefits (defined benifit) like it used to be in U.S. before they were cut in favor of 401k So if you invest wisely, markets go up and the company is matching, you'll do well, otherwise, not so much.


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

I feel compelled to remind you all that clean mass transit (and everything else, for that matter) comes at a price. Nation-states make choices all the time, and while I prefer some alternatives over others, I find it difficult to argue one approach is always "better".

While visiting a winery in the Burgenland, I asked the owner/wine-maker where she got her vineyard workers and how much she paid them. This progressed to a discussion of taxes and benefits. She surprised me with the comment something like: "They aren't too bad. We only have to pay 100% for the combination of payroll taxes, health insurance, and retirement plan. That is true for both workers from Austria and from Hungary."


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

Clean mass transit as much as anything comes from a social culture in Germany that values the good of society, neatness, and cleanliness. 

As far as a functional mass transit system, it is valued in Europe as an efficient, cost effective, way to provide for population movement so that fewer cars are needed by each family unit. It is certainly cheaper per passenger mile than the American approach marked by self-indulgence at the price of the common good and the environment.

Another aspect of German culture is that long term solutions are valued as opposed short term solutions.


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## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

pharding said:


> Clean mass transit as much as anything comes from a social culture in Germany that values the good of society, neatness, and cleanliness.
> 
> As far as a functional mass transit system, it is valued in Europe as an efficient, cost effective, way to provide for population movement so that fewer cars are needed by each family unit. It is certainly cheaper per passenger mile than the American approach marked by self-indulgence at the price of the common good and the environment.
> 
> Another aspect of German culture is that long term solutions are valued as opposed short term solutions.


Try taking a train from Fargo to Houston, or New York to LA. I'll take the M5 and delight in the expelling of dead dinosaurs into the atmosphere.  isn't that why we buy BMW's? :thumbup:


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Being in Germany works if you're "German". I believe there is less acceptance of diversity of ideas etc. Everything you have said could be applied to Japan and Singapore - not exactly on the top lists of where most people want to immigrate to (or visit for that matter). So it's not all cookies and cream.


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## skier (Oct 19, 2004)

pharding said:


> That has not been my experience with BMW. BMW and BMW FS have always treated me well and every reasonable request or issue has been addressed promptly and fairly.


Both BMW and BMW FS you're dealing with are US based - so what's you point again?


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## ddtan (Apr 28, 2006)

These days Germany and Singapore look better and better to me. I wouldn't mind living there, but then I've already made it.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Not sure what making it has anything to do with it. If you want to live in a country that runs like clockwork, having money in one that doesn't won't make it so. You still have to drive the same poor roads, fly airlines that offer bad service, deal with the grocery store etc. For example, my wife flies Delta first class twice a week for 8 hours - she judges it to be the same level as Premium Economy for most Asian internatoinal airlines - it's a joke. In other countries, when you have made it, things operate at a different level - when things break, they get fixed, the help do the shopping and the chores, and service is more of a requirement than an afterthought.

Having said that, I honestly believe it's easier to be happy and engaged in the US as an average person, than wealthy in many others. There just isn't that much to do, and after a while, it becomes boring - which is where the beauty of diversity comes in. The US is also by and large a wonderful place to raise and nurture kids - a big reason why I'm here. Having one of the largest percentage of middle classes in the world doesn't hurt either.


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## john lance (Oct 15, 2005)

chrischeung said:


> The US is also by and large a wonderful place to raise and nurture kids - a big reason why I'm here.


I agree ...... to a point. Raising my daughter in sunny Florida and 5 miles from Disney World gave her a fabulous first 8 years with all the outdoor life, swimming, beaches and of course unlimited theme-park fun and I am so pleased she had the opportunity to experience all of that.

Once she reached that age though I couldn´t wait to get her over to Europe for some culture, healthy food, better schooling, safer towns, more respect for the environment and fellow citizens, a great transport system and generally a much higher quality of life. I hope therefore that she remains in Europe where she may well have a lower standard of living than if she lived in Florida but will not have all the worries that I see people in the USA have all the time, particularly when it comes to the outrageous cost of healthcare and medicine. The schools and universities she goes to do not need metal detectors, the house she lives in will be built to last hundreds of years not just a generation, the possession of firearms is rare, big business does not control government policy (nor do they invade your privacy with unacceptable cold-calling), the poor, ill, old and unfortunate are not left by the wayside, she will enjoy at least six weeks of vacation time every year, will not need to work till she drops just to keep health insurace and statistically speaking should have a longer and healthier life, be safer when giving birth to a child and all in a body 20% lighter than if she lives in America.

Having said that, what great vacations she can have visiting ... the fabulous USA (flying with a European airline of course!).


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

skier said:


> Both BMW and BMW FS you're dealing with are US based - so what's you point again?


BMW and BMW FS are German, not American. The consumer has a better experience as a direct result IMO.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

pharding said:


> BMW and BMW FS are German, not American. The consumer has a better experience as a direct result IMO.


Not exactly.

BMW FS is headquartered in Ohio. As a company, it is thoroughly American and far less influenced by BMW AG than BMW NA is.

BMW NA is headquartered in N.J. and is a good example of a U.S. subsidiary that is heavily influenced by its German parent.

In general, from posts I´ve seen on line as well as first hand experience and friends´ experiences on both sides of the pond, BMW NA customer service is better than BMW Germany and the Americans are far more oriented towards customer service (in terms of what Americans seemingly expect, such as make-goods, etc.) than their German counterparts.


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## mgthompson (Oct 14, 2007)

DXK said:


> They don't always admit they're wrong, though, often they blame the user. Their approach is basically "we designed it, that means it is correct". Only after it's been proven beyond the reasonable doubt, would they admit a mistake.


I ran into this in a Munich hotel. In the morning following my first night, the sheets and pillow case were covered with little spots of blood. It didn't take long for me to figure out that the cause was bed bugs.

Since the previous guest in the room didn't report a problem I must have brought them with me and infested their hotel. It was not possible for their clean hotel to have been infested before I arrived.

It took a long discussion with the hotel manager (and threats of posting a travel review of the hotel) to get moved to a different room. There were no problems with the second room. The fumigated my original room.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

john lance said:


> Once she reached that age though I couldn´t wait to get her over to Europe for some culture, healthy food, better schooling, safer towns, more respect for the environment and fellow citizens, a great transport system and generally a much higher quality of life. I hope therefore that she remains in Europe where she may well have a lower standard of living than if she lived in Florida but will not have all the worries that I see people in the USA have all the time, particularly when it comes to the outrageous cost of healthcare and medicine. The schools and universities she goes to do not need metal detectors, the house she lives in will be built to last hundreds of years not just a generation, the possession of firearms is rare, big business does not control government policy (nor do they invade your privacy with unacceptable cold-calling), the poor, ill, old and unfortunate are not left by the wayside, she will enjoy at least six weeks of vacation time every year, will not need to work till she drops just to keep health insurace and statistically speaking should have a longer and healthier life, be safer when giving birth to a child and all in a body 20% lighter than if she lives in America


Sounds perfect. No downsides?


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## DXK (Jun 1, 2007)

John Lance, 
Here is what’s going on: Europe has been living in the dream world for a number of years now.
They taxed the companies and individuals to the max and spent on social welfare that you describe. It’s been working in the past since the only competition for production came from U.S. and Japan countries with expensive labor. Now since the advent of Asia and E. Europe, the production is moving there, so the tax base is shrinking, at the same time, the successful individuals who are taxed heavily, are moving or not producing as much since there are no incentives to produce when taxes are high. That results in yet higher spending by the government to compensate for the loss of tax revenue, which in turn results in budget deficits that causes loss of confidence by the investors who refuse to buy the country’s debt. You’re witnessing that unraveling started in South Europe which will spread further. The only healthy countries left are Germany and to the lesser extend France. Germany is pursuing the policy of lowering taxes, cutting benefits, and not increasing the debt. However, eventually they would have to participate in bailing out the rest of Europe. 
However, if you still want good schools and free healthcare, one can live in Massachusetts.


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## dalekressin (Sep 3, 2008)

Pharding, I agree with you and your wife's impressions of Germany and I would say I'm more impressed with the Swiss.
Nice to be able to do ED and enjoy the experience thoroughly.


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## ddtan (Apr 28, 2006)

It seems to me that, for me, getting my higher education in this country was easier to do. In Singapore, for example, the competition to get into University was greater, and the positions fewer. Having accomplished my degree, I wonder whether I would have had an easier or more difficult time making my career in the US vs Singapore. But having gone through all that, would I like to live the rest of my life in a country that ran like clockwork, with very little crime, a great transportation system, paid for medical care, and great food, it sounds good to me. I think the opportunities are better in the US, after that, I'd give up a little individual freedom, in exchange for a more clockwork.


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## john lance (Oct 15, 2005)

DXK said:


> John Lance,
> Here is what***8217;s going on: Europe has been living in the dream world for a number of years
> However, if you still want good schools and free healthcare, one can live in Massachusetts.


I don´t understand, are you saying that Massachusetts have finally seen the light and now have the same free healthcare for all system as the rest of the World? If so, I congratulate them and hope the rest of the USA soon follows suit.


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## DXK (Jun 1, 2007)

john lance said:


> I don´t understand, are you saying that Massachusetts have finally seen the light and now have the same free healthcare for all system as the rest of the World? If so, I congratulate them and hope the rest of the USA soon follows suit.


Nothing is free. Mass. does have every citizen covered either through an employer or a state if the person cannot afford it. The employers and taxpayers are paying for it. However, our state is unique, it's rich in tax base and has lots of great hospitals / doctors to cope with everyone. The important thing is that the coverage is provided by private insurers.


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

There are several people from Europe in the office I work in. One of my engineers is a British citizen and we have several Swedes. We have a large French customer so they are here fairly often. My daughter spent a year in France, too. So I have been involved in several discussions of this type. You guys have made most of the points. One of my favorite points is that the United States is really composed of individual states that are, considering land area, more similar to European countries. The example of Mass has been mentioned. I live in SC now and previously lived in KS, PA, and NE. All have distinct personalities. I have only been impacted by a criminal personally by our apartment being robbed in the Philadelphis area. Where I live now, a big crime wave is somebody (probably kids) stealing things left lose inside an unlocked car. It's hard for me to imagine any part of Europe being safer.

With respect to mass transit, I think a large difference is the relatively low population density in large parts of the U. S. Where we have population density that would be similar to Europe, there is mass transit (like for Boston/NYC/Philadelphia/Washington). SC's total population is something like 5M. I do not think that is high enough to support mass transit. Even worse would be western Kansas or Nebraska. There are hardly towns in the western 2/3 of both states. Trains would have to run with nobody on them or only run for a day or two each week. 

Jim


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## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

john lance said:


> I agree ...... to a point. Raising my daughter in sunny Florida and 5 miles from Disney World gave her a fabulous first 8 years with all the outdoor life, swimming, beaches and of course unlimited theme-park fun and I am so pleased she had the opportunity to experience all of that.
> 
> Those of us in the States give our children the Disney X2 experience as a vacation. The same way we begin their exposure to Europe. Then we return to our safe cities, with good schools (sans metal detectors) safe streets with very little crime, safe homes because of the prepondernce of armed citizens who hunt, and grumble at the gov't intrusion in our lives. Significantly less intrusion than Europe, but still enough to irritate. Some things I apprecitate about Europe and some things I appreciate about the US, the differences are some of what makes them enjoyable and irritating. However I would never encourage my children to accept a lower standard of living wherever they chose to reside. :dunno:


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

john lance said:


> Once she reached that age though I couldn´t wait to get her over to Europe for some culture, healthy food, better schooling, safer towns, more respect for the environment and fellow citizens, a great transport system and generally a much higher quality of life. I hope therefore that she remains in Europe where she may well have a lower standard of living than if she lived in Florida but will not have all the worries that I see people in the USA have all the time, particularly when it comes to the outrageous cost of healthcare and medicine. *The schools and universities she goes to do not need metal detectors,* *the house she lives in will be built to last hundreds of years not just a generation*, the possession of firearms is rare, *big business does not control government policy (nor do they invade your privacy with unacceptable cold-calling)*, the poor, ill, old and unfortunate are not left by the wayside, she will enjoy at least six weeks of vacation time every year, *will not need to work till she drops just to keep health insurace* *and statistically speaking should have a longer and healthier life,* be safer when giving birth to a child and all in a body 20% lighter than if she lives in America.
> 
> Having said that, what great vacations she can have visiting ... the fabulous USA (flying with a European airline of course!).


Because there are no school shootings in Europe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school-related_attacks

Where do you get the idea that houses are not built to last in the United States? This country is barely 200 years old, and there are plenty of original structures still standing. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt my house is going to collapse when it hits 80 years old.

These houses in Portugal don't quite support your argument of supreme European building codes either...





Big business does not control government policy in Europe? When did that happen? I must not have read my Wall Street Journal that day.

Cold-calling? Here you go, I haven't received a single call since I signed up.
https://www.donotcall.gov/

You don't need to work until you drop to keep health insurance in Europe, but a very large percentage of your paycheck goes to taxes that go to healthcare. So you really ARE working for your healthcare in Europe. In fact, more of your working hours in Europe probably go towards covering your healthcare than they do in the United States. It just isn't as visible where you money is going in Europe as it is in the US.

According to CIA: Avg life expectancy in US: 78.11; Austria: 79.5; Spain 80.05. Negligible differences.
Infant mortality rate: US: 6.6/1000; Austria: 4.4/1000; Spain 4.2/1000. Statistically negligible again.
Furthermore, you can't compare such statistics between very large and very small countries. Compare these numbers to the US as a whole with Europe as a whole. The eastern European countries will drag down the averages in the same way that Louisiana and Mississippi drag down the US averages making the already statistically negligible differences even more irrelevant.

I've pointed out just a few small issues with your arguments, but legitimate holes could be poked through every single statement you made.

The simple fact is that you sacrifice A LOT of money and freedom to enjoy some of the benefits you describe about Europe. For a properly raised and educated person in the United States, it is entirely possible to enjoy both a higher quality of life and higher standard of living than in Europe. In this country, it is the responsibility of the individual and the individual's parents to ensure that this happens. In Europe, the individual gives up those rights and allows the government to take over such matters in exchange for a larger portion of his or her paycheck. The United States is too large and diverse for the socialism you describe and desire. We have the most diverse country on earth with 300+ million people. Not everybody can be taken care of equally in such a large system. Sure it works in Austria with a population of 8 million people that all look the same and speak the same language, but it doesn't work for the US, and never will.

I absolutely love my health insurance and pay very little for it. I get 5 weeks of paid vacation each year, plus holidays. My house is seriously solid; it doesn't even falter or creak when the wind hits it. My body mass index is superb. I went to one of the best colleges planet earth has ever known. Nobody ever shot me in high school, or even threatened to do so. I have never been mugged, beaten, stabbed, raped, drugged or burglarized. And most importantly, I haven't received a single cold call in at least 5 years! Life is good. Now tell me, how can Europe improve upon this?


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## DXK (Jun 1, 2007)

J-Man - excellent!


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

I love Germany and several other countries in western Europe but I am still happy and proud to be an American and live in the USA. Yes, we have our problems but it is still the best country in the world IMHO.


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## john lance (Oct 15, 2005)

*I've pointed out just a few small issues with your arguments, but legitimate holes could be poked through every single statement you made.*
*the J-Man*

Actually you haven´t at all done that and there are no holes! And, with respect, you appear to have the same tunnel vision that so many in the USA have and is so sadly accepted by society in America as quite normal, when in fact it is anything but normal!

Thes following are the facts which, along with the death by shooting of a good (Austrian) friend of mine on vacation in New Orleans some years ago and the shootings and murders reported on an almost daily basis in Orlando & Kissimmee, FL, where I used to live - and some at the very same supermarkets, banks and restaurants which I, too, was using- were all a driving force in my return to Europe.

*SAFETY:*

*School gun-related Incidents per country/average year (2000-2008):* 
USA 10,000
Canada 9
Germany 5
UK 1

*Average number of murders by handguns every year*

USA 11,789
Germany 373
Canada 151
UK 54

*Homicide Rates per 100,000 inhabitants*

USA 4.5
UK 1.5
Spain 1.5
Germany 1.2

Apparently in the USA 50% of homes have guns in them and nearly 4,000 children and teens die every year from being shot. That does not paint a very healthy picture of society and so absurd as to make it impossible for me to comprehend or be a part of. If one child is shot in the UK it is headline news and there are 10 or more every day in the US and that something impossible for Europeans to really get around.

*Incarceration Rates* The USA has by far the highest rate in the World, 750 per 100,000 are locked up in jails & prisons, that´s 2,300,000 people. Even in China there are 1,500,000 from a population 4 times the size, so just 18% of the US rate. In Europe it´s about 150 per 100,000, just 20% of the US rate. And with all those violent people locked up there´s still so much violence! I´m afraid that is unacceptable to me.

As for the rest of the items under discussion:

*Infant Mortality* The figures show that a child born in the USA is 50% more likely to die in its first year than in the countries you quoted for - that is certainly not negligible! The USA is positioned 44th with 6.2 deaths per 1000 within the first year of life.
The comparison you make with Mississipi & Louisiana and the Eastern European countries doesn´t stand up either - MS & LA have 10.1 & 9.9 deaths per 1000, the Czech Republic has 3.8 and Slovenia 4.25. Poland & Slkovakia, with Eastern Europe´s worst statistics, are nearly the same as the USA´s at 6.8

*Life Expectancy* The USA is in 38th position just worse than Cuba & Chile.
Spain is 6th, Canada 11th, Austria 16th and Germany 23rd.

*Housing* Just drive around any 30-year-old subdivision, the houses are falling apart and the values fall in comparison to new. In Europe, the building codes are much, much stricter and homes are built to last, with their values after 30 years similar to newly constructed homes.

*Health* How come the rest of the civilised World has one system with universal health care and only the USA has it correct by having its citizens individually pay such huge costs for insurance and prescription drugs? Health care is a big worry for most people in the US, Europeans do not have that worry and that becomes more applicable with age and until you experience it you cannot really appreciate how good that feels.

*Big Business* Health-care is so expensive in the US because of it, Guns are everywhere because of it - the power of the special interests & lobbyists is obscene and, no, it is not anywhere near such an issue in Europe.

*Intrusion* I did sign up with donotcall when living in Florida but still received dozens of calls both at home and work from my utility suppliers, credit-card comanies etc who seemed exempt as they were already doing business with me and then those horrendous calls from those implying they were from the Sheriff´s office or the like, trying to obtain donations. I cannot remember the number of times I fiercely insulted those innocent telemarketers just trying to earn a living but for businesses to blindly call individuals to market their product is an insult to my intelligence and I am proud that I never, ever, in 15 years of life in Florida, bought anything offered to me over the phone.

Finally, Standard of Living is not Quality of Life. They are entirely different and personally I am delighted to give up so much of the former for so much more of the latter. It had nothing to do with my nationality or roots, just a careful decision after weighing up the pros and cons.

Mind you, I did seriously consider moving to Vail, Colorado and very nearly made it. Maybe I would have been happier there, I don´t know.


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## asaseaban (Aug 9, 2005)

Here is my few take on this whole issue:

1) None of the 7 continents are alike and so are all of the countries in the world not alike.

2) There are more Chinese, and Indians attending Universities/Colleges in the USA more than ever before.

3) More people migrate to the USA than any other country in the world.

4) In the Middle East, majority of the women wear all black outfits and cover their faces in the smoldering heat whilst the men wear all white garments and feel cool, yet the women love their country.

5) Some Americans talk down on Europe, China, Indian, Cuba, etc but yet they go on vacations in these countries all the time.

In summary, Europe is not USA, neither is USA China or Indian, etc. Each country is unique and has it's PROS and CONS. If you don't like the USA, then by all means move to another country. If you hate the government taking all your money in taxes in order to provide you healthcare and pension, then move to the USA and take care of your destiny.

The same BMW that cost about $120k in the USA is selling in China for over $200k and yet they're selling like hotcakes whilst some Americans complaint $120k for a BMW is outrageous.

It's a cowardly act to complaint about how the country you live in sucks yet you wake up everyday in it and don't do anything to change it. I dislike people that complaint all the time yet they offer no solution or refuse to do anything to change the situation. It similar to those that drive BMW and talk about how nice Mercedes looks...blah...blah...blah...please buy a Mercedes already or shut up and drive your BMW. Samething goes for people that drive Mercedes and talks about all the technology that BMWs have. Either buy a BMW or get rid of the Mercedes and walk.

I'm an American and i love living in the USA. I've travelled to different countries and enjoyed each of my trip but when it's all over, i look forward to coming home to the good ol' USA.

****God Bless America, land of the free, and home of the brave.****


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## blauner (Jul 11, 2007)

john lance said:


> I agree ...... to a point. Raising my daughter in sunny Florida and 5 miles from Disney World gave her a fabulous first 8 years with all the outdoor life, swimming, beaches and of course unlimited theme-park fun and I am so pleased she had the opportunity to experience all of that.
> 
> Once she reached that age though I couldn´t wait to get her over to Europe for some culture, healthy food, better schooling, safer towns, more respect for the environment and fellow citizens, a great transport system and generally a much higher quality of life. I hope therefore that she remains in Europe where she may well have a lower standard of living than if she lived in Florida but will not have all the worries that I see people in the USA have all the time, particularly when it comes to the outrageous cost of healthcare and medicine. The schools and universities she goes to do not need metal detectors, the house she lives in will be built to last hundreds of years not just a generation,* the possession of firearms is rare*, big business does not control government policy (nor do they invade your privacy with unacceptable cold-calling), the poor, ill, old and unfortunate are not left by the wayside, she will enjoy at least six weeks of vacation time every year, will not need to work till she drops just to keep health insurace and statistically speaking should have a longer and healthier life, be safer when giving birth to a child and all in a body 20% lighter than if she lives in America.
> 
> Having said that, what great vacations she can have visiting ... the fabulous USA (flying with a European airline of course!).


What does possession of firearms have to do with anything? Maybe she will enjoy drugs in Germany since they are #1 in drug offences. Maybe thats why they are lighter, less money for food. I enjoy my liberty. I am sorry you have to live in such a horrible country.


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## shakes (Mar 15, 2007)

John Lance,
I have to assume that you had some intention of stirring the pot on this board with your blanket indictment of all things American but I also think you feel a need to justify your own decision and that is fine too. With your views on our society, I think you made the right decision for you and your family. My view on what makes America and any society better is probably far different from yours and I suppose we are both in the places that make us the happiest. I love Europe but wouldn't want to live there. I'm glad to have had the opportunity to experience Europe several times and look forward to doing so again. And that is really what the ED forum is all about, isn't it?


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## blauner (Jul 11, 2007)

john lance said:


> *I've pointed out just a few small issues with your arguments, but legitimate holes could be poked through every single statement you made.*
> *the J-Man*
> 
> Actually you haven´t at all done that and there are *no holes*! And, with respect, you appear to have the same tunnel vision that so many in the USA have and is so sadly accepted by society in America as quite normal, when in fact it is anything but normal!
> ...


There are no holes? We have tunnel vision? Wow. Look in the mirror.

http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

You can't compare Germany to the US. You would need to compare all of Europe to the US. It is not worth anything to pick and choose. How about if we compared NY to Italy? Life is much better and the standard of living is much higher in NY than it is in Italy. I live in a very nice house, never been mugged, have good schools, I have excellent health care, etc., etc., I am a middle class person who owns a BMW 535i, a house in the suburbs, a substantial 401k portfolio, and I retired at 56. Can a middle class person in Italy say the same thing?

Besides, it is not about that. People can live where they want and still enjoy it. Personally, I found Germany very neat, proper, clean, and boring. Pop on down to Italy, and there is more beauty, more mess, more disorganization, and more excitement. Greece was fairly poor, but had warm and happy people. Spain seemed to still be waking up from years of dictatorship and was still trying to find itself. We are due for two and a half weeks in France come September. We have travelled all throughout the US of A, and believe me, Boston is as different from Charleston as Rome is from Dusseldorf. We are hitting San Francisco this May, and it is absolutely a world class city, IMO, on par with Vienna. New York and London are very similar.

So, there is plenty good on both sides of the pond, and plenty of good places to live either here or there, and plenty of places you don't want to live, here or there. (Would you want to live on the outskirts of Paris, in the neighborhoods where the rioting took place a couple of years ago?)


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## john lance (Oct 15, 2005)

shakes said:


> John Lance,
> I have to assume that you had some intention of stirring the pot on this board with your blanket indictment of all things American


Actually, no - I just wanted to answer Chrischeung´s statement "The US is also by and large a wonderful place to raise and nurture kids " because after 15 years of living in Florida I happen to disagree with that statement as far as it refers to older kids. That´s all and I did not really want to elaborate on things but the thread got a bit out of hand.

My criticism was not of all things American -I could well have added a long list of the many excellent things that are American, but I did that some time ago on another similar thread on here.

The firm responses certainly remind me how wonderfully patriotic US citizens are. You should be proud of that as it is not usually the case in other countries - only yesterday a poll showed that just under 50% of British people, who are constantly criticising their country, dislike living there and would emigrate if only they could afford it. However, I end my "contribution" to this thread by remarking that without public criticism of where a society has failed (and here my main issue is that of safety, violence & guns), those failures will never be improved upon. I truly apologize if my personal opinion has offended, that was not intended.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

john lance said:


> Actually, no - I just wanted to answer Chrischeung´s statement "The US is also by and large a wonderful place to raise and nurture kids " because after 15 years of living in Florida I happen to disagree with that statement as far as it refers to older kids. That´s all and I did not really want to elaborate on things but the thread got a bit out of hand.
> 
> My criticism was not of all things American -I could well have added a long list of the many excellent things that are American, but I did that some time ago on another similar thread on here.
> 
> The firm responses certainly remind me how wonderfully patriotic US citizens are. You should be proud of that as it is not usually the case in other countries - only yesterday a poll showed that just under 50% of British people, who are constantly criticising their country, dislike living there and would emigrate if only they could afford it. However, I end my "contribution" to this thread by remarking that without public criticism of where a society has failed (and here my main issue is that of safety, violence & guns), those failures will never be improved upon. I truly apologize if my personal opinion has offended, that was not intended.


What you said is not offensive to me. Although I have not lived in Florida, I have been going there regularly since my parents moved there in 1975. My wife's parents moved there, and my best friend just moved there, in retirement. OK place to live in retirement, less good as a place to raise kids.

Schools, culture, physical beauty, and safety are much better here in the suburbs of NY, and taxes are way higher. Health care is better, public services are better, income is higher, and the standard of living is higher.

I am only saying that Florida is not the US, and, you can't say any more than you like Germany over Florida as a place to raise kids. You might very well like Westchester County, NY better than Germany. Or Marin County, CA better than France, for example.


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## shakes (Mar 15, 2007)

john lance said:


> Actually, no - I just wanted to answer Chrischeung´s statement "The US is also by and large a wonderful place to raise and nurture kids " because after 15 years of living in Florida I happen to disagree with that statement as far as it refers to older kids. That´s all and I did not really want to elaborate on things but the thread got a bit out of hand.


Fair enough- and to tell you the truth I agree with you about central Florida as a place to raise children having three nieces and nephews there. I would not put it at the top of the list of places to raise my kids there as much as I love the warm weather, sun and beaches. But central Florida is one part of a very large nation. I agree with you about the level of violence in this country but the causes are many and not easily tied to the number of legally owned firearms.

I value your persepctive and while the USA is not a perfect place, for me and my family it is best.


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## ViaPerturbatio (Jul 25, 2009)

Kamdog said:


> How about if we compared NY to Italy?


You can find a fine cannoli in both regions. :yummy:



Kamdog said:


> Life is much better and the standard of living is much higher in NY than it is in Italy.


Depends where in New York and where in Italy you are comparing to KamDog.



Kamdog said:


> Pop on down to Italy, and there is more beauty, more mess, more disorganization, and more excitement.


Viva Italia!

_Just trying to lighten the mood folks...._


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## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

john lance said:


> Actually, no - I just wanted to answer Chrischeung´s statement "The US is also by and large a wonderful place to raise and nurture kids " because after 15 years of living in Florida I happen to disagree with that statement as far as it refers to older kids. That´s all and I did not really want to elaborate on things but the thread got a bit out of hand.
> 
> My criticism was not of all things American -I could well have added a long list of the many excellent things that are American, but I did that some time ago on another similar thread on here.
> 
> The firm responses certainly remind me how wonderfully patriotic US citizens are. You should be proud of that as it is not usually the case in other countries - only yesterday a poll showed that just under 50% of British people, who are constantly criticising their country, dislike living there and would emigrate if only they could afford it. However, I end my "contribution" to this thread by remarking that without public criticism of where a society has failed (and here my main issue is that of safety, violence & guns), those failures will never be improved upon. I truly apologize if my personal opinion has offended, that was not intended.


John,
Your error is in equating central Florida to the rest of the US. Maybe you should come over here rent some winter tires and see the rest of the US. Until you have driven 20 to 30 thousand miles you really have not seem much of the US. My German daughter has, she and several friends took my suburban and drove from SD to Chicago, on to NY City, down to DC then to Key West, back up to New Orleans, St. Louis, and then back to SD by way of KC. That was their 1st trip. They probably can give a more accurate description of the US than you can. Also the year before Her German parents and she drove the northern route to the west, SD to Yellowstone, down to the Jackson Hole area, the bright lights of Las Vegas, the North rim of the Grand Canyon and back through the Rockies. Followed that up last year with a trip with her boyfriend in my A6 through the southwestern US out to California up to Washington and Back. If you experience all this and then get truly informed on what it is really like in the US then maybe your comments will not elicit such caustic reactions. Health care is costly but available to anyone unfortunately we do have people who could afford insurance but chose not to, when they do get sick or just do not feel well they present to the ER (the most expensive type of treatment) looking for a cure. The US should have some form of universal health care, but not to give even more power to the federal gov't. This is still a nation of freedom, so how do you overcome forcing someone to purchase an insurance product they do not want regardless of whether they need it or not? It is my right to own and bear arms, as long as I do not break any laws with my guns why should anyone else care that I have them. Shall we discuss the Swiss armed population? Guns in the hands of criminals is the problem, not making gun owners criminal. Yes we have a large prison population, partially because we have found incarceration works to reduce crime, and long incarceration reduces it more. That was not the commonly held belief through the 60's until the mid 90's but it is becoming more evident. During our current economic downturn crime has gone down not up as would have been expected. If you think you get an accurate picture of the US by reading The New York Times, Time Magazine, or any of the other MSM news magazines you are not getting an accurate picture. Come over and visit my part of the US it bears no resemblance to the US you portray. I will even take you out and let you have some legal fun with firearms.:thumbup:


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

chaz58 said:


> As one European manager had posted on his office wall:
> _*"In Germany, everything is prohibited unless it is expressly allowed"
> In the US, everything is allowed unless it is expressly prohibited"*_


And the German guy said, 'Is he allowed to say that?'

And the American guy said, 'Even if it is expressly prohibited, I can usually get away with a fudge factor of 10.'


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## mgthompson (Oct 14, 2007)

Kamdog said:


> I can usually get away with a fudge factor of 10.'


We had to have a tutorial in Germany over a few beers about "fudge factors" and "close enough".


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## chaz58 (Sep 11, 2007)

Working in the Automotive industry right in the middle of Europe, understanding the different cultures was important (and often entertaining - especially between the British and the French).

The whole quote read:
_*"In Germany, everything is prohibited unless it is expressly allowed"
In the US, everything is allowed unless it is expressly prohibited
In France, everything is prohibited, but it is all negotiable."*_

Presumably the Swedes, British, and the Italians didn't cause so much grief.


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## john lance (Oct 15, 2005)

There is also this longer version:

*In the United States, everything that is not prohibited by law is permitted.

In Germany, everything that is not permitted by law is prohibited.

In Russia, everything is prohibited, even if permitted by law.

In France, everything is permitted, even if prohibited by law.

In Italy, everything is permitted, especially that which is prohibited

In Switzerland, everything that is not prohibited by law is obligatory.*


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## chaz58 (Sep 11, 2007)

Interesting comments on raising children from Chrischeung and John. I'm leaning to raising kids in Germany.

Before the age of 10, I don't know that it really makes that much difference. Children raised (in my family) in Germany would be multi lingual and multi-cultural in a way American children are not, but other than that it would be similar.

After the age of 10, the difference becomes more distinct. US kids are totally isolated without a car, and dependant on their parents for transportation. The maturity level of the average US teenager is a bit less - they are over protected and very dependent on adults. High school academics are much lower in the US, and US teens tend to have more extreme issues with sex and drinking.

The strongest benefits I see in Germany are that German children 

don't live in the fear that US families seem to have (and don't have to be as constantly monitored), 
have much more freedom in ability to travel around town or just to hang out at places other than the mall 
Have a broader world view of the planet that exists outside their nation's boundaries
Will not be burdened with excessive debt just to go to college.

Children in the US (especially from wealthy backgrounds), have tremendous opportunity, options, and flexibility. The biggest downside I see in Germany for a teenager would be put on an educational/vocational track at a young age that may not turn out to be appropriate. The German system, whether in school or career, doesn't have the flexibility that the US has (which can be a good thing, or not).

Everyone here comes from a relatively wealthy background, which effectively negates many of the potential negatives of the US.

John, I found your insight interesting. Thanks.


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## mgthompson (Oct 14, 2007)

Other observations...

Why is Aspirin so expensive in Germany when it was invented there? When my German friends visit they go to CVS and buy 1000 tablet bottles of Aspirin for what it costs for a bottle of 10 in Germany.
They also stock up on vitamins which are also very expensive in Germany.

I always make the wrong choice between a drug store and an apothicary when I need something in Germany.

We introduced a German friend's 5 year old daughter to pancakes, maple syrup, peanut butter, Trisket crackers, Dr. Seuse books (why does the cat always make such a mess?), and the ability to run around a large yard as much as she wanted. That was priceless.

One of my German friends commented "Its like living in a park." when we drove through my neighborhood.

Why can't my doctor here prescribe a paid 2 week walk on the beach when I get stressed at work?

For some BMW content...
I paid in Dollars what my Germany friends would pay in Euros for the same car.
They couldn't understand why I bought a car with a 3.0L engine that will go 155 MPH when the speed limit is 55 MPH.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

mgthompson said:


> For some BMW content...
> I paid in Dollars what my Germany friends would pay in Euros for the same car.
> They couldn't understand why I bought a car with a 3.0L engine that will go 155 MPH when the speed limit is 55 MPH.


They don't understand that, here, it is a god-given right for a natural born American to go 10 mph over the speed limit on the highway. No self-respecting cop will pull you over. You can often get up to 15 over with impunity if you are doing it in the left lane, or even the right lane, if you are not weaving, and have plenty of space.

On the autobahn, when that 120Kph limit sign glows in your lane, no one is doing 121.


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## Alfred G (Apr 1, 2007)

pharding said:


> My wife and I have been to Germany six times and we have always been impressed by Germany. The US pales in comparison to modern day Germany. German cities and towns are generally immaculate in comparison to American cities. On the Munich subway you could eat lunch off of the floor of the subway cars. They run precisely on time. German infrastructure and public buildings are incredibly well crafted and designed to last several times longer than the typical US counterparts. Plus they are much more energy efficient and green. The Munich airport is amazing in comparison to its poorly constructed and poorly maintained US airport. Plus the typical US airport is very poorly maintained in comparison. German cities and towns reflect the priority within German society that is placed on the common good. German cities and towns are inherently walkable and very cohesive. The pedestrian and cyclist gets equal consideration to the automobile in urban design for German cities. Reflecting American society's emphasis on the rights of the individual at the expense of the common good, American cities are less cohesive and less aesthetic. German workers across the spectrum are well trained and extremely professional in what they do. You can go to a fast food restaurant in Germany and the place is immaculate and the staff are incredibly professional. In a German hotel if an issue arises with your room, which is incredibly rare, it is addressed very promptly and professionally with a sense of embarrassment that things were less than perfect. My wife and I have been on hiking trails in German mountains and they are absolutely immaculate. If it is rainy out Germans stay off the trails because they don't want them all mucked up for the community as a whole. One of the reasons that wifey and I do European delivery every 3 years is that Germany itself is such a great place to visit.


Reading this makes me very proud of my country.

Thank you for your write-up.


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## mgthompson (Oct 14, 2007)

Kamdog said:


> They don't understand that, here, it is a god-given right for a natural born American to go 10 mph over the speed limit on the highway. No self-respecting cop will pull you over. You can often get up to 15 over with impunity if you are doing it in the left lane, or even the right lane, if you are not weaving, and have plenty of space.


I tell my German friends that driving at 65 MPH leaves plenty of time for drinking coffee and sending text messages. They cringe.

When the visit here they say that driving in the highway is "relaxing".


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## chaz58 (Sep 11, 2007)

Nice observations. :thumbup: My BMW cost less than an Opel (Saturn) Astra in Germany (and would take about 50% more Euros than dollars to purchase in Germany).

The TUV exaust restrictions are a bit draconian, but you won't have any Harley's busting your eardrums either.



mgthompson said:


> For some BMW content...
> I paid in Dollars what my Germany friends would pay in Euros for the same car.
> They couldn't understand why I bought a car with a 3.0L engine that will go 155 MPH when the speed limit is 55 MPH.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

pharding said:


> In a German hotel if an issue arises with your room, which is incredibly rare, it is addressed very promptly and professionally with a sense of embarrassment that things were less than perfect.


Well either that, or they treat you like the whiny American that you are - meaning they smile and send you back to your room. 

I think you may be missing some of the other cultural/ethnic/political implications which color their grass in different shades of green...

That said, my wife and I absolutely love Germany and go there at every opportunity we get.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

john lance said:


> There is also this longer version:
> 
> *In the United States, everything that is not prohibited by law is permitted.
> 
> ...


Ah, it was just getting better with each version... thanks to everybody for the good laugh! :rofl:


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

pharding said:


> In a German hotel if an issue arises with your room, which is incredibly rare, it is addressed very promptly and professionally with a sense of embarrassment that things were less than perfect.


With the exception of true five-star hotels (where this would be the case anywhere), I have to vehemently disagree. Most complaints are addressed in a manner that leaves the person making the complaint feeling somewhat responsible for having caused the problem in the first place.

If you make a complaint in a U.S. hotel, you will immediately be asked "what can we do to make up for the problem - can we comp you one night, can we buy you dinner, can we give you 10,000 points...". In Germany, even in the top hotels, this would never be a topic for discussion.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

M FUNF said:


> Come over and visit my part of the US it bears no resemblance to the US you portray.


To be fair, you live in a state with the population density of Siberia. 

If it was all advantages and no downsides then everybody would move to South Dakota and it would become like any of the other overpopulated, crime ridden states.


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## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

adc said:


> To be fair, you live in a state with the population density of Siberia.
> 
> If it was all advantages and no downsides then everybody would move to South Dakota and it would become like any of the other overpopulated, crime ridden states.


That is why we *Enjoy* a couple of months of Siberian weather, It tends to keep the riff raff out.


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## Alfred G (Apr 1, 2007)

john lance said:


> *Homicide Rates per 100,000 inhabitants*
> 
> USA 4.5
> UK 1.5
> ...


509 people were murdered in Chicago in the year 2008,

3 (three) homicides in Munich in 2008.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Alfred G said:


> 509 people were murdered in Chicago in the year 2008,
> 
> 3 (three) homicides in Munich in 2008.


I will admit that we do have a real problem with homicide in the US, but I also believe that guns don't kill people, people kill people.


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## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

rmorin49 said:


> I will admit that we do have a real problem with homicide in the US, but I also believe that guns don't kill people, people kill people.


To further expound on the gun\no gun argument. Bad people with guns tend to kill or injure good people without guns. If you were to break into my house, the chance of it not ending well for you are very good, so you may contemplate my neighbors house. Where I live your chances there are probably not any better, thus low crime. :thumbup:


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