# RWD in snow and other nasty New England weather



## mecklaiz (Mar 20, 2003)

I can't help but mention to people that I'm looking at BMWs for my next car. (After all, if you were looking to get one, wouldn't you want others to know?) However, most people respond with:

"Yeah? Well I hope you have a second car to drive around during winter cause you're probably going to kill yourself driving a rear wheel drive car in the nasty snow we get up here in New England"

The last time I drive a rear wheel drive car was in another life in a place where it never snowed.

Just how do I respond to people who say things like that? 

   mecklaiz

PS, I'm sure this has come up a million times before but I'm going to risk asking again.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

You should get a second set of wheels with REAL snow tires. Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50s, for example. Your RWD Bimmer will handle better than most AWD cars on all seasons. (And yes, I regret getting an AWD car.)


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Get winter tires, you'll be fine. Snow tires are critical. What tires are driven only matter when you are hitting the gas. When cruising and braking, winter tires will save you. If you need better traction up a hill, throw some weight on your trunk.


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## uter (Jan 6, 2002)

*New Hampshire bimmers*

After driving in New Hampshire for the past five years in three bimmers, I'd have to say:

1. The E46 325 xit was superior in heavy snow, even with all-season tires. This winter has been very snowy and the AWD has been terrific.
2. My E36 with manual transmission and Bridgestone Blizzaks did pretty damn well
3. My E34 touring without snow tires was a struggle.


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## xmas63 (Sep 11, 2002)

Ditto what Nick said. I'm also in New England, I'm on my third RWD BMW, and have absolutely no regrets about not getting AWD, even after the winter we just had.

Anyone who says something about needing a second car for the winter and you're gonna kill yourself has absolutely no idea what they're talking about and---I can guarantee you---has NEVER---not even once---driven a BMW in the winter with snow tires.


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## Ack (Mar 16, 2002)

I picked up my 330Ci last May and drove thru its first winter in Buffalo. I have a great winter tire on the car (Blizzak LM-22's) and the car handled better than any other car I've had in the winter. Snows make a huge difference and I wouldn't think of driving on anything other than them in the winter. I would routinely pass SUV's on the highway when it was snowing out. 

With the ABS/DSC and winter tires on our cars, you will be more than fine driving in New England during the winter.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

Can't say anything here that hasn't already been said. In the winter, I easily prefer my 330i with snow tires to any FWD car w/ all-season tires that I've owned.

This past year excluded, MN winters are normally filled with frequent, deep snow and very frequent glare ice. The 330i handles it, no problem.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Like everyone else mentioned buy some Bridgestone Blizzaks and beater rims from Tirerack and you should have no problems. If you've never driven a rear wheel drive car in the snow, take the car to a empty mall parking lot after a snowfall and do some test driving to get a feel on how the car responds to the snow. 

The only problems I have ever had with my 325 with the Sport Package is the car is fairly low and the front scrapes in deep snow.


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## 325i RocketGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

I live in Wisconsin and have a 325i with the standard all-season tires. I have found this to be more than adequate for winter weather. Snow tires, as others have suggested, would be even better.

Once you do get going, the balanced weight distribution and RWD are actually *benefits* IMO that make the car *more* controllable in snow. Ever try to steer a FWD car in the snow and accelerate at the same time?


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## jaisonline (Mar 24, 2002)

this issue has been debating many times on this forum. personally, i think the XI outperforms the I in snow, sleet, ice, etc... conditions MUCH better than rear wheel drive even with snows. however, the rear wheel drive people on this board don't agree. i think most I owners on this web site haven't even driven both cars in the snow to compare. i have. my friend has a '02 325i with snows and my car is MUCH MORE stable on the snowy hilly roads. i could climb hills w/o any problems and slight slippage while his car couldn't make it 1/4 up the hill. some goes for going down hills. his rear end was going all over the place.

note: we all agree with driving rwd or awd doesn't make a difference when it comes to stopping. in fact, awd stops are usually longer depending on the driver and the car's weight/momentum going forward. all awd does is keep the car stable (going straight while driving by keeping the rear end in check) and assist in moving the car from a standstill.


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## mecklaiz (Mar 20, 2003)

My experience this winter was with a set of

Dunlop Winter Sport M2
205/55HR16

On my Galant. It was much better than the stock all seasons (which had 24,000 miles on 'em). I definately felt the difference between wet traction between the two tires and noted significant benefits.

Biggest problem I had was braking or doing any corrective manuvers. I kept getting significant understeer and plowing in the direction i *didn't* want to go.

So I guess heavy understeer was a big problem especially with any significant turn in, which, giving New England roads is very frequent where you get off 45 MPH roads at a 90 degree angle onto a 25 MPH road.

mecklaiz


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2003)

How do you respond?

Mention that it snows in Germany too. 

With snow tires and careful driving, it's no problem.


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## JimmyNY (Jan 11, 2002)

Actually in Germany just like the majority of European countries.... During snow storms of any kind snow chains are mandatory by law. Chains are the best for any car.


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## mquetel (Jan 30, 2003)

*When best deal from Tirerack?*

Does anyone know if Tirerack is more likely to offer better deals on snow tire packages now, at the end of the season or next fall at the beginning of the winter season?

Thanks in advance!


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: When best deal from Tirerack?*



mquetel said:


> *Does anyone know if Tirerack is more likely to offer better deals on snow tire packages now, at the end of the season or next fall at the beginning of the winter season?
> 
> Thanks in advance! *


As of last spring, they don't. I would still send Jim an email and see if they are this year. [email protected]


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: RWD in snow and other nasty New England weather*



jaisonline said:


> *this issue has been debating many times on this forum. personally, i think the XI outperforms the I in snow, sleet, ice, etc... conditions MUCH better than rear wheel drive even with snows. however, the rear wheel drive people on this board don't agree. i think most I owners on this web site haven't even driven both cars in the snow to compare. i have. my friend has a '02 325i with snows and my car is MUCH MORE stable on the snowy hilly roads. i could climb hills w/o any problems and slight slippage while his car couldn't make it 1/4 up the hill. some goes for going down hills. his rear end was going all over the place.
> *


I don't think that anyone here is arguing that RWD w/snows is better than AWD w/snows. What they are saying is that with snows, a RWD BMW is better than a FWD car with all seasons and as good as (maybe a little worse than) an AWD car with all seasons.

Personally, my 330Ci with Dunlop Winter Sport M2s has taken me anywhere I've wanted to go in the last 3 winters. This includes windy, hilly PA back roads with several inches of snow and all kinds of places around Worcester, MA and other areas in central MA, in all kinds of conditions and on all kinds of roads.

Unless you get frequent deep snows and you regularly travel on steep hills, AWD is not a requirement.


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## XKxRome0ox (Mar 3, 2003)

*Re: New Hampshire bimmers*



uter said:


> *After driving in New Hampshire for the past five years in three bimmers, I'd have to say:
> 
> 1. The E46 325 xit was superior in heavy snow, even with all-season tires. This winter has been very snowy and the AWD has been terrific.
> 2. My E36 with manual transmission and Bridgestone Blizzaks did pretty damn well
> 3. My E34 touring without snow tires was a struggle. *


i can vouch for the heavy snow in new hampshire~
:thumbup:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I have now driven three different BMWs (2 X E46 and 1 E39) through three Finnish winters and I have never had one problem. I do have a dedicated set of snow tires/wheels as Nick mentioned and this works fine.

Unless there are 2000' elevation changes in New England, I am sure that you will be fine.


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## Jspeed (Dec 23, 2001)

I have a set of Yoko AVS Winter tires mounted on steelies. I drove up to a local ski resort while it was snowing, and I had no problem following those over-confident SUV's passing the snow plows. Of course if you gas it hard DSC will come on but in terms of overall traction and control it was superb. I'm sure I could out-brake all those SUV's too.


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## Zaphod (May 23, 2002)

xmas63 said:


> *Ditto what Nick said. I'm also in New England, I'm on my third RWD BMW, and have absolutely no regrets about not getting AWD, even after the winter we just had.
> 
> Anyone who says something about needing a second car for the winter and you're gonna kill yourself has absolutely no idea what they're talking about and---I can guarantee you---has NEVER---not even once---driven a BMW in the winter with snow tires. *


xmas63 really put it well. I'm CT as well and had the same concerns as you. Other comments about snow tires are critical, snows are the key to survival.

What impressed me most about my 325i this winter was the braking performance. No more FWD push. I can count on two hands how many times ABS kicked in this winter.


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## uter (Jan 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: New Hampshire bimmers*



XKxRome0ox said:


> *i can vouch for the heavy snow in new hampshire~
> :thumbup: *


Vox Clamantis In Deserto.
Maybe change that to Vox Clamantis In Nieve.


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

If you know what you're doing (rare in NA), RWD is A LOT more capable than any FWD car in the snow, save for absolute straight-line traction.

Example: If my car is understeering (read:sliding) towards a curb, I can grab the clutch to change the weight transfer, or even stab the gas quickly to get the car back in line. In FWD cars those same situations have gotten very hairy.

Once again, just practise with the car on snow tires in an empty parking lot on the first snowfall and approach then exceed the grip limitations of the car, and learn how to control the thing.

An automatic camera will always take decent pictures, even if you're an idiot. However, an SLR in the hands of an expereinced person is a LOT more capable. A RWD car on snows is like the SLR, so you just learn how to use it. :thumbup:


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Achtung!

4 Dunlop Winter Sport M2's 225/45/17










Commuted 35 mi every day this winter, the result:










Get winter tires, and ignore the :bs:


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

I see more and more XI's in NH and there's gotta be a good reason for it. All of my friends with snows complain about the PITA the whole snow tire changing thing is. Some have 5's, some have 3's but they all agree both drive a lot better with snows than without.

So if you have your heart set on RWD, make sure you get snow tires. I have yet to see an XI around here require snow tires but I am sure some have done it.


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## powerdrift (May 21, 2002)

mecklaiz said:


> *I can't help but mention to people that I'm looking at BMWs for my next car. (After all, if you were looking to get one, wouldn't you want others to know?) However, most people respond with:
> 
> "Yeah? Well I hope you have a second car to drive around during winter cause you're probably going to kill yourself driving a rear wheel drive car in the nasty snow we get up here in New England"
> 
> ...


How did I respond? You people don't know what your talking about. There is a thing called winter tires.  Plus I suppose all those BMW's owners in german have a FWD car for a winter car?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

FireFly said:


> *I see more and more XI's in NH and there's gotta be a good reason for it. All of my friends with snows complain about the PITA the whole snow tire changing thing is. Some have 5's, some have 3's but they all agree both drive a lot better with snows than without.
> 
> So if you have your heart set on RWD, make sure you get snow tires. I have yet to see an XI around here require snow tires but I am sure some have done it. *


Why's it so hard? Spend $70 on a floor jack and a torque wrench and you can do it in less than half an hour. Get a socket adaptor for your drill, and you can spin the lug bolts off in seconds.

I can change all my wheels in less than fifteen minutes these days. It's not like I'm rushing, either...


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## powerdrift (May 21, 2002)

mecklaiz said:


> *My experience this winter was with a set of
> 
> Dunlop Winter Sport M2
> 205/55HR16
> ...


The Galant is a FWD car. FWD cars are known to have huge understeer in any condition when pushing it, espcially without a real sports tuned suspension. It become even more evident in snow, which is what is happening in your case.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *Why's it so hard? Spend $70 on a floor jack and a torque wrench and you can do it in less than half an hour. Get a socket adaptor for your drill, and you can spin the lug bolts off in seconds.
> 
> I can change all my wheels in less than fifteen minutes these days. It's not like I'm rushing, either... *


It takes me 15-20 minutes to change the wheels in my Benz and that's jacking each corner. It's less if I just jack it front and rear. this is all with a regular hand torque wrench.


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## 325xi-SteelGray (Dec 27, 2001)

Personally, I used my 325xi one winter in Rochester and traded it in for the 330ci. I have NO regrets, except maybe that I bought the 330 in the first place!

As a side note, I was told NOT to put extra weight in the trunk because of the preexisting weight distributions. I never added anything.

Go with the rwd, if that is where you heart is!


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

Nick- most of my friends who own BMW's are women 

Can't figure out why many of my guy friends who had BMW's have recently traded them in for saab's and G35's- but it's their decision. maybe the economy has something to do with it?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

FireFly said:


> *Nick- most of my friends who own BMW's are women
> 
> Can't figure out why many of my guy friends who had BMW's have recently traded them in for saab's and G35's- but it's their decision. maybe the economy has something to do with it? *


Were they afraid the E46 is too gay? :angel:

I still don't understand why people fear changing tires so much.


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## 325xi-SteelGray (Dec 27, 2001)

I'm a girl and I have no fear of changing tires! I have an awesome MAC torque wrench, that I stole from my Dad!  I take my wheels off once a year just for cleaning and a good wax job. There's a little ocd in all of us! :thumbup:


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## '02-325XiT (Jul 27, 2002)

I don't think the debate on RWD with snows vs AWD without snows is really asking the right question. The use of snows and the use of AWD are not mutually exclusive, and AWD and snows add different value to the winter driving experience.

I believe that anyone who thinks that Xi is worth the extra money "for winter driving" should also spend the extra money for a set of snows. AWD will help get you out of the thick stuff, and up the steep hills. Snows will help get you around the corners and get you stopped. DSC and DHC will help also. The combination of all of these is awesome. Any one of these does not substitute for the other.

'02-325XiT' (the Michelin Artic Alpins came off yesterday...)


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## Marco (Mar 7, 2003)

I confess. If it wasn't for the debate in this forum I would have happily (and ignorantly) gone on with all-season tires on my (still to come) AWD. I am thankfull for the info.

Now the question: let's say I put on snow-tires in December till March. I guess I'll get 40 days with snow on the road out of 120.
Isn't my car's breaking etc. worse than with all-season for the remaining 80 days? 
Short of keeping switching tires and keeping in mind that I (will) have an AWD, is snow-tires still the best solution?
m.


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## xmas63 (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: New Hampshire bimmers*



rumatt said:


> *...I don't have anything against AWD, but I think many people don't even understand the tradeoffs and simply go out and buy AWD under the impression that it automatically makes them safer in snow...*


Very well said, Matt. I agree completely.

I also have nothing against AWD, and I mean no disrespect to people who have it, but for me, I wouldn't take it if it were given to me for free. Since RWD with snows handles so awesome in the snow, I see it as solving a problem that simply doesn't exist, and paying for it dearly by sacrificing performance. I am certain that BMW introduced AWD solely to compete with Audi for the segment of the luxury sports sedan market that demanded AWD no matter what.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

This is being beaten to death, but what the hell. My Benz runs on 185/65/R15 Blizzaks WS-50's during the winter (stock tire size). The narrow width and great pattern makes them incredible in the snow and ice. My car does't even have traction control, yet I can count on one hand the number of times I lost control of the car at all, despite the horrible winter we had. Add to that that it is HEAVILY front weight biased. 

That said, performance does suffer. The car takes noticibly longer to stop, and handling and acceleration suffer too. But the truth is, even if there is no snow storm going on, parking lots, driveways, backroads can always have ice/snow from a week-old snowfall. So I think it is worth it to keep them on for 4 months (my winters go on early Dec and I take them off mid-march).

Personally, I will keep my Benz for really nasty weather and as a 2nd car, so I will put performance snow tires on the 330i (LM-22's)... just enough to safely get me by small snowfalls and leftover ice/snow, while still giving me good performance. 

Weather you get regular winter tires, or performance winter tires, they will both brake and handle much better than A/S, and you NEVER know when you will hit a snowy/icy patch.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

Ok so here's a bit of a curve-ball to throw into the mix:

The majority of AUDI's sold here in the N. East come with quattro. In fact, the dealer near me only orders cars with quattro. I know he's making more money on these cars but that's a discussion for another time.

Do you think in climates where it snows a lot will we also see BMW sell more AWD models than RWD models? If so, why? If not, why not?


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

FireFly said:


> *Ok so here's a bit of a curve-ball to throw into the mix:
> 
> The majority of AUDI's sold here in the N. East come with quattro. In fact, the dealer near me only orders cars with quattro. I know he's making more money on these cars but that's a discussion for another time.
> 
> Do you think in climates where it snows a lot will we also see BMW sell more AWD models than RWD models? If so, why? If not, why not? *


The reason A4's sell so well with quattro is that if you choose not to get the quattro your only other option is FRONT wheel drive, which just sucks (and that is an entirely different subject altogether).


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## xmas63 (Sep 11, 2002)

FireFly said:


> *Ok so here's a bit of a curve-ball to throw into the mix:
> 
> The majority of AUDI's sold here in the N. East come with quattro. In fact, the dealer near me only orders cars with quattro. I know he's making more money on these cars but that's a discussion for another time.
> 
> Do you think in climates where it snows a lot will we also see BMW sell more AWD models than RWD models? If so, why? If not, why not? *


I think the ratio will increase, but I don't think AWD BMW sales will surpass RWD. Over the last five years, we have seen a huge push in the market for AWD sedans, a market comprised mostly of people who like the idea of "magic solution" for improved winter handling---people who tend to jump on a bandwagon rather than do any real research. Audi happened to be one of the few automakers out there with the right product at the right time. They very smartly capitalized on this and made this an important part of their product line and of their marketing focus. This is why, IMHO, Audi is in the situation they're in.

BMW on the other hand is more "driver experience"-focused in both their products and marketing efforts, and, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, began to offer AWD only (IMHO) in response to the market, and to the threat that Audi had placed on their market share. Unlike Audi, though, I believe that a very significant percentage of BMW owners are, in fact, driving enthusiasts, and the demand for RWD BMW's will remain extremely strong.


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## mecklaiz (Mar 20, 2003)

And hence Mercedes making 4MATIC available on more cars in their product line in the past year.

It's all about what the market wants. Which is good and bad, at least the Mitsubishi EVO showed up and the RX8 is coming to town and so on and so forth.

mecklaiz


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