# Is the unreliablility of German cars simply accepted in Germany?



## GG Hyundai (Feb 26, 2007)

Ok, we all generally agree that unfortunately, German cars aren't as reliable as Japanese ones, but I was just thinking, in Germany, is it simply considered "normal" or are there a lot of Japanese cars in Germany? >_>


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## sdbrandon (Mar 18, 2006)

Even in the U.S. our own Ford/GM/Chrysler managed to sell crap for decades.

I think we need to realize the many factors go into a car buying decision. Reliability, technology, performance, comfort, etc. Which one you choose at the top of your list of priorities may not align with others.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

In Europe, German cars are considered reliable. If you want an unreliable car, buy something from France or Italy. Japanese cars have a very small market share in Europe because although they're known to have great reliability, their vehicles don't line up with consumers' tastes and preferences. Europeans place a higher emphasis on driving dynamics, fuel consumption, design, and CO² emissions and Japanese vehicles tend to fall short on all of these aspects. In Japan, most highways have a speed limit of 100km/h, versus places in Europe that have limits of 120 km/h, 130, or unlimited speed limits. Hence, the solidity of a vehicle and feel at high speeds is crucial.

The nail in the coffin is the fact that most Japanese automakers either don't offer a diesel or make mediocre diesel offerings.


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

sdbrandon said:


> Even in the U.S. our own Ford/GM/Chrysler managed to sell crap for decades.
> 
> I think we need to realize the many factors go into a car buying decision. Reliability, technology, performance, comfort, etc. Which one you choose at the top of your list of priorities may not align with others.


As far as I know, Germans are extremely demanding consumers, but they are also obsessive about maintaining their vehicles. Maybe that's the secret.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

AzNMpower32 said:


> The nail in the coffin is the fact that most Japanese automakers either don't offer a diesel or make mediocre diesel offerings.


Not quite... All of them offer diesels in Europe, and Honda in particular has an excellent diesel engine offered on the European Accord (which is sold as an Acura TSX on the US).


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

swajames said:


> Not quite... All of them offer diesels in Europe, and Honda in particular has an excellent diesel engine offered on the European Accord (which is sold as an Acura TSX on the US).


Yes, the DTEC engine is pretty good for an automaker. Arguably though, BMW and VW make better engines at that level.

The Honda Accord is only offered with one diesel, versus 4 for the VW Golf and 6 for the 3er. In addition, the comparable engines for VW and BMW make more power, consume less fuel, and emit fewer CO². A 320d will blow the Accord out of the water in acceleration as well. 7,5s versus 9,8s, take your pick.


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

GG Hyundai said:


> Ok, we all generally agree that unfortunately, German cars aren't as reliable as Japanese ones, but I was just thinking, in Germany, is it simply considered "normal" or are there a lot of Japanese cars in Germany? >_>


Looking back on your opening message, it is not true that we all agree on this. I have about 150K on my 1999 528. It has had some things replaced, but it's generally been extremely reliable for a 10 year old car.


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## fuz (Feb 6, 2002)

Well, Japanese cars are increasing in presence, but growth is still slow. It should be pretty obvious though, Germans as well as many other European cultures favor a more rounded approach to what a car is. Reliability alone is not something that is attractive if other factors of a car do not hit an acceptable level. European cars tend to be significantly more complex with more components and tighter design elements.

Besides, cars are much more of a luxury there than a necessity as it is in the US. If you're poor or simply do not care for a car, there are plenty mass transit options. Nobody likes trying to park in a city. 

There is also a viewpoint that says a car breaking down is the result of poor maintenance by an inept owner, rather than the engineering.


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## equ (Aug 11, 2004)

I'll venture forth and make up some stuff. Having lived on the other side of the Atlantic, I think perception/use of cars are different there compared to here.
1. There is so much public transport that the car being out of service for a day or two for maintenance is not crippling, whereas here, especially in exurbia, it would be a royal pain. You cannot get bread or go to work without your car in many places in the US.
2. Another reason service/maintenance is very painful in the US is the longer workday. With 35 to 40hr weeks, you have more time to drop it off. 
3. Cars are more viewed as 'treats', used for trips and not so much the grind of stop & go. (Once again due to public transport prevalence and high gas prices).
4. Perhaps Americans are more convenience-oriented? They want it to work every day, all the time.. E.g. plumbing here is much better than Europe, people are more used to small failures over there.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

equ said:


> I'll venture forth and make up some stuff


Oddly people in the UK buy Renaults knowing that they are unreliable. Price maybe? :dunno: People with Peugoets often start sentances with "I know it is French".

Renault and Rover aside, European cars aren't all that bad. And yes, you don't need a car here but it is nice to have one.


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## Jakked (Feb 6, 2009)

equ said:


> E.g. plumbing here is much better than Europe,


is that why they've been using PEX for decades and we're still stuck in the dark ages of copper and PVC?


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

GG Hyundai said:


> Ok, we all generally agree that unfortunately, German cars aren't as reliable as Japanese ones, but I was just thinking, in Germany, is it simply considered "normal" or are there a lot of Japanese cars in Germany? >_>


Define "reliable". I'd say the Japanese built the best electronics, which are the number one annoyance in modern cars. However, if you want to talk about durability, the Germans have been way ahead - the cars were designed to be maintained and come without a predetermined life expectancy. I've been in properly maintained 300k mile BMWs and 400k mile Mercedes that, even being 20 years old or older, are as good as what Japan is building today.

The problem is the average American today doesn't have a clue how to do something as simple as a brake job, and therefore is a slave to the stealership.


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## Bmwcat (Jul 30, 2004)

I have read the secret to owning German cars is to keep up on maintainence. If drivers cut corners their Euro-mobile won't last. 
My 328 has 130K on the clock and runs great.


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## stelb03l (Mar 6, 2007)

My BMW is a state of the art machine with more computing and electronic power than most vehicles in its class. Why is it a surprise that the more money you pay for a car, the more electronics it will have and the more maintenance it would require. A model T was considered reliable but it did not have brakes that dry themselve in when the road is wet or ARS. Technology = higher cost of ownership. And as for Japan making more reliable cars, anybody see Toyota lately.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

stelb03l said:


> My BMW is a state of the art machine with more computing and electronic power than most vehicles in its class. Why is it a surprise that the more money you pay for a car, the more electronics it will have and the more maintenance it would require. A model T was considered reliable but it did not have brakes that dry themselve in when the road is wet or ARS. Technology = higher cost of ownership. And as for Japan making more reliable cars, anybody see Toyota lately.


It really isn't. The technology in a 3 series is far from state of the art. The technology built in to a Camry Hybrid is significantly more advanced.


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

ProRail said:


> As far as I know, Germans are extremely demanding consumers, but they are also obsessive about maintaining their vehicles. Maybe that's the secret.


I'd venture to say that is a big part of it.

That and my dad just said that while Japanese cars may be cheaper to buy, they will nickle and dime (or Euro cent ) you for service in Germany.

German cars such as Audi, MB, BMW, or VW are considered highly reliable in Germany. As with everything, it does not mean they never fail, but with proper maintenance they can go forever. Case and point #1, my dad's E36 316i has 225k miles on the clock with just regular maintenance. He said he'll buy a new BMW convertible if the E36 ever dies but it just won't die!

There is a lot of stereotyping going on with Japanese, vs European, vs US cars. Case in and point#2, your thread title. Less reliable statistically does not necessarily mean unreliable. A lot of blanket statements are based on statistics that I wouldn't necessarily include to determine "reliability" of an automobile.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

There are some new statistics out from the ADAC (German equivalent of AAA in the US) revealing some reliability and break down rates.

Overall, Mercedes was the brand with the lowest breakdown rate. BMW and Citroen also did very well. Poorest scores were awarded to the Chevy Matiz, Ford Transit, and older Opel Vectra. The report was generated from a data set of 3,9 million breakdown reports requiring ADAC assistance.

Greatest source of problems was the battery and alternator-related problem, surprise surprise.

http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/p...it.asp?ComponentID=288954&SourcePageID=288970

In the sub-compact vehicle class, the Mini and Ford Fusion (different model than North America) scored highest.

In the compact class, the B-class, A3, and 1er scored positions 1, 2, and 3 respectively.

In the mid-size and executive sedan class, the C-class, 3er scored tops.

In the SUVs, the BMW X3 and X5 scored tops with the VW Touareg, M-class in positions 4, 5.

http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/Pannenstatistik_2009/default.asp

You can click on the results and individual models to pinpoint the common problems. For example, the BMW 3er or the Toyota RAV4


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