# How well does 3-series do in snow?



## skingsland (Feb 1, 2003)

I'm pretty close to ordering a 330, and am a little worried about the performance of the car in snow. A coworker has a '01 325, and can barely make a 1% incline when it snows. Another acquaintance rents an SUV instead of driving his '02 330CiC. And believe me, it has *really* snowed around here in the last couple weeks.

My current car is a vw passat (front wheel drive) with traction control, and it kicks ass in the snow and ice. But guys I work with who own rear wheel drive sports cars usually walk to work when it snows. Even though it doesn't usually snow much here in DC, that still doesn't sound good to me.

Sure, snow tires will help (and I think I would definitely get them), but only so much, right? Same for DSC?

Anyway, how do your bimmers fare in snow & ice, especially compared with front wheel drive cars? Do you feel comfortable driving in snow?

Steve


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

skingsland said:


> *I'm pretty close to ordering a 330, and am a little worried about the performance of the car in snow. A coworker has a '01 325, and can barely make a 1% incline when it snows. Another acquaintance rents an SUV instead of driving his '02 330CiC. And believe me, it has *really* snowed around here in the last couple weeks.
> 
> My current car is a vw passat (front wheel drive) with traction control, and it kicks ass in the snow and ice. But guys I work with who own rear wheel drive sports cars usually walk to work when it snows. Even though it doesn't usually snow much here in DC, that still doesn't sound good to me.
> 
> ...


I live in Boston, where we get much more snow than you do, and I am getting a 330i. I currently drive a 1990 M-B with no traction control of any kind, yet despite all the snow, with Blizzaks this is the best car I have ever driven on snow. I expect the 330i to do better.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

With this set up it's sucks










WITH THIS SET-UP IT 'S GOOD










You can buy these great wheels for your car here

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33748&item=2405318821&rd=1


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## coryg (Sep 12, 2002)

Used to have 99 3 series when I lived in VA. In deep snow, it had clearance issues like all cars. 

I had high performance all season tires on the car and it performed ok in the snow, but I drove cautiously or not at all because I was more concerned with the SUV drivers that think they can drive anywhere / anytime running into me.

I drove slowly with moderate throttle changes and slowed way down to handle the conditions. But remember, this was not on snow tires.

In ice, it did an fine job. I was caught off guard hitting a patch of ice and traction control / ABS did well.

However, if you are really needing to drive in lots of snow you should get a set of snow tires. That is the only safe way to go if you must drive in the snow.

Car and driver did a test of cars with and without snow tires / with and without awd a while back. Pretty much, snow tires for the better than any front or awd without snow tires.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> *With this set up it's sucks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shameless plug Alan 



No offense but for RWD and real snow I would go with dedicated snow/winter tires not AS. With my xi part AS has done quite well.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

skingsland said:


> *I'm pretty close to ordering a 330, and am a little worried about the performance of the car in snow. A coworker has a '01 325, and can barely make a 1% incline when it snows. Another acquaintance rents an SUV instead of driving his '02 330CiC. And believe me, it has *really* snowed around here in the last couple weeks.
> 
> My current car is a vw passat (front wheel drive) with traction control, and it kicks ass in the snow and ice. But guys I work with who own rear wheel drive sports cars usually walk to work when it snows. Even though it doesn't usually snow much here in DC, that still doesn't sound good to me.
> 
> ...


Ah, another D.C. area 'Fester. Welcome! 

I currently have a '99 M3 and I wouldn't drive it in snow more than .5 to 1 inch deep. Even then I have to be very judicious with the throttle. Your 330 would not fare much better in the snow if you have aggressive summer tires on it.

In fact, the tires have more to do with your traction (or lack thereof) in the snow than anything else. Even FWD cars suck in snow if you have high-performance rubber. If you are very concerned about being able to drive in all conditions, I recommend you buy a set of cheapie wheels and winter tires. They make a HUGE difference in snow traction.

I'm lucky enough to be able to use my wife's Civic if the weather gets bad. This is why I don't have my own winter tires, along with the fact that the D.C. area hardly ever gets snow.


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## jaisonline (Mar 24, 2002)

*325xi rules!*

in the blizzard last week, my '02 325xi sliced right thru ice , sleet, and snow. i have no problems driving up and down icy hills. in past snow and ice storms, no problems here.

however, i can't understand why XI owners want to lower their cars. the lower ground clearance sorta ruins the benefits of all wheel drive in deep snow.


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## Jspeed (Dec 23, 2001)

... pretty darn well if you have good winter tires. It'll climb hills better than FWD w/ all-seasons.


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## DMD (May 23, 2002)

I live in boston, MA & we had 30" of snow a couple of weeks ago...I was worried also but with high performance dry weather tires in a 325i I was perfectly fine. You have to be careful but I managed to get through the snow just fine, I decided to save the money on the snow tires and buy other things for the car....V1 Radar Detector is next on my list as I just got a speeding ticket....


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## sshuit (Apr 15, 2002)

I have an inclined driveway and 325Ci with blizzaks on it and I can still get stuck if I get onto a patch of ice. The clearance is not very good and I shudder every time I hear the *skritch*ing of the front airdam as I go over ice and snow. I'm sure there will be scratches there come summer.

So you will be able to get around OK but I'd much rather get an old 4wd A4 or something to bum around in in the winter


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## Ashe too (Dec 22, 2001)

I've got a '02 325i w/ sport package and in recent snows, ice and sleet storms in Charlotte (bad winter for us), I've been amazed at how well the car performs. I have found myself passing SUVs driven by morons while going up steep hills...no problem (mind you, they were stopped and/or slid off the road or creeping along at 5 MPH and I was only going 15 MPH). The DSC/ASC+T system simply works as advertised. And this with lame Continental ContiSport (old series) tires! Of course, I have to be gentle with the throttle and use a light foot on the clutch. I'm sure if the snow were any deeper than about 6 inches, I'd have clearance problems but so far, no traction problems.


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## xmas63 (Sep 11, 2002)

skingsland said:


> *A coworker has a '01 325, and can barely make a 1% incline when it snows. *


I can guarantee that your coworker is running performance tires that probably came with a sport package. (I've been there!) But this is not in any way an indication of the car's ability to handle in the snow. Slap 4 winter tires on that same car and he'll get through just about anything.


skingsland said:


> *Sure, snow tires will help...but only so much, right? *


 Wrong. The difference is like night and day.

BTW, I'm in CT with a 330i, and as you may know, and we've had a TON of snow this year. No problems at all.

Regarding RWD vs. FWD in the snow, I can tell you that BMW's handle a lot better than the FWD Honda that I used to drive. In fairness, that could be due to weight balance, weight of the car---I really don't know to be honest. All I can tell you for sure is that BMW's, when properly equipped, handle GREAT in the snow!


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

skingsland said:


> *ISure, snow tires will help (and I think I would definitely get them), but only so much, right? Same for DSC?*


It's all about physical traction. Snow tires make a night and day difference on all cars.

DSC is a good safety net, but you'll find with good snow tires, it rarely comes into the mix. I really have to push my 330Ci in the snow to light up the DSC light. If you have summer tires on, you will probably find DSC is intruding all the time.

Absolutely get real snow tires. Modern snow/ice tires like the Alpins, Graspics and Blizzaks perform exceptional in the dry as well... it won't give you the maximum grip of a summer, but they ride nicely and feel close to summer tires.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

The 3'er is totally useless in the snow on summer tires...
And quite decent with winter tires.

Next time around, I'm not even going to bother with AWD. RWD and a set of proper snow tires will cover me quite nicely.


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## ChadS (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: How well does 3-series do in snow?*



alee said:


> *It's all about physical traction. Snow tires make a night and day difference on all cars.
> 
> DSC is a good safety net, but you'll find with good snow tires, it rarely comes into the mix. I really have to push my 330Ci in the snow to light up the DSC light. If you have summer tires on, you will probably find DSC is intruding all the time.
> 
> Absolutely get real snow tires. Modern snow/ice tires like the Alpins, Graspics and Blizzaks perform exceptional in the dry as well... it won't give you the maximum grip of a summer, but they ride nicely and feel close to summer tires. *


Have to agree exactly with Al. I have LM-22's on my 325Ci and Z3 (yes the little car goes out for fun in the snow) for the winter and haven't had a problem yet even with the winter we have had in the northeast. I also through a couple bags of water softener salt in both of the trunks for a little more weight if I go out in the snow. It's always funny to see the looks all the SUV drivers give me when I am out in the snow and having no problems. It must set of some sort of alarm bell in their head . . . "BMW + snow = bad, but how it that BMW driving in the snow without a problem". When they see me it must through them for a loop . Yes Virginia, a BMW is just fine in the snow (with the proper shoes).


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: How well does 3-series do in snow?*



ChadS said:


> *It's always funny to see the looks all the SUV drivers give me when I am out in the snow and having no problems. It must set of some sort of alarm bell in their head . . . BMW + snow = bad. When they see me it must through them for a loop . Yes Virginia, a BMW is just fine in the snow (with the proper shoes). *


That's for damned sure. 

The funny thing is that when you're coming up behind people in a BMW in the snow, they seem to be a lot nicer on average. I think they're terrified you're going to spin out into them.


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## steve (Jan 7, 2002)

Living in Canada, we've been blessed with a ton of snow this season -- and I have yet to shovel the area out where my car is parked even after being plouged in.

I've got a set of Pirelli Winter 210s on my car, and it goes, stops and corners through just about anything. Similar, believe it or not, to the unstoppable nature of a Jeep Grand Cherokee that I used to have, without the gas milage penalty.

My wifes Jetta wagon has FWD, but all-seasons, and it's okay -- haven't gotten stuck either, but it requires a lot more skill to drive.

So, end analysis -- snow tires make a big difference, and there is no reason not to get a rear driver even in snow. If you don't plan on getting snow tires -- get a good life insurance policy. Not being able to go, also means not being able to turn, nor stop.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

The 3 Series handles very well in snowy conditions with SNOWTIRES and the DSC/ASC+T system. BMW has excellent weight distribution compared to most rear wheel drive cars and this definitely helps. A front wheel drive car with snows would probably be better then the BMW because of the added weight of the engine over the front wheel drive. And yes a 4x4 would be the best for really deep snow.


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## dusterbuster (Jan 29, 2003)

i know this is probably a really stupid question, but can you just use the included tire jack and install a winter set of wheels yourself? or is it recommended that you go to a tire shop to get a set of winter tires installed? would be less convenient if it was the latter.

also, about how much would a set of decent winter tires and wheels costs? thanks!


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

dusterbuster said:


> *i know this is probably a really stupid question, but can you just use the included tire jack and install a winter set of wheels yourself?*


You could, but the included jack is crap and isn't designed to do this very well. I bought a $40 floor jack from Sears and it works fine... 3 full swaps so far without a problem.


> *also, about how much would a set of decent winter tires and wheels costs? thanks! *


I believe you can buy full sets (wheels with tires mounted) from Tire Rack for about $1000. Someone else can correct me if I'm not remember the price correctly.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Seriously it takes about 30 minutes to swap tires, make sure you torque the bolts to the correct settings.

I picked up wheel package from Tire Rack for around 800 bucks mounted balanced and shipped. They are steel wheels and look like crap but for the winters here in Chicago with the potholes they are good enough. For about 200 bucks more you can get nicer looking rims.


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## bh330ci (Feb 6, 2002)

Do what I did-get a beater 1986 Volvo station wagon. :rofl: 
It didn't cost me much more than a set of wheels, I can bring a shovel with me everywhere I go, I can leave my baby covered at home, and, to top it all off, it lowered my insurance.:thumbup:
It really is nice to be able to drive around in the snow without worrying about anything. Not recklessly mind you, but just comfortable that if anything unforseen should occur, it's really no skin off my back. 
Also, the cherry on top is that I'm all that much more excited to get back in the 330 when the roads clear up.

*EDIT* P.S. DC guys- it's still snowing like crazy down here in C-ville so don't expect it to let up for you any time soon:thumbdwn:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

If you're going to mount them yourself, buy a torque wrench and a 17mm socket.

Also, if you have a drill, get a 3/8" socket adaptor too. It will let you spin the bolts on and off with tremendous ease, requiring you only to hand loosen and tighten them.

And yes, get a floorjack if you have space. Otherwise, the BMW jack is fine. IF AND ONLY IF you are NOT on a polished or painted surface.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Correction on the steel wheels, last time I checked they will not fit 330 only the 325.


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## dusterbuster (Jan 29, 2003)

hmm, $800-1000 for a set of wheels/tires? i guess that's not too bad, although i'm in the bay area and the only time i'd really need snow tires is if i went up to tahoe for some skiing. seems like an expensive option. but at least it sounds like i don't need to get anything recalibrated and that i could just do the swap myself. thanks for your help!


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

bh330ci said:



> *Do what I did-get a beater 1986 Volvo station wagon. :rofl:
> It didn't cost me much more than a set of wheels, I can bring a shovel with me everywhere I go, I can leave my baby covered at home, and, to top it all off, it lowered my insurance.:thumbup:
> It really is nice to be able to drive around in the snow without worrying about anything. Not recklessly mind you, but just comfortable that if anything unforseen should occur, it's really no skin off my back.
> Also, the cherry on top is that I'm all that much more excited to get back in the 330 when the roads clear up.
> ...


Thats a good theory except here in the Midwest winter last for 4- 5 months. I didn't buy a $30,000 plus car to only drive 7 months out of the year.


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## bh330ci (Feb 6, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> *Thats a good theory except here in the Midwest winter last for 4- 5 months. I didn't buy a $30,000 plus car to only drive 7 months out of the year. *


You're right. This guy's in Fairfax, VA though, and he's seen more snow this year than he'll probably see the next five years combined. If I still lived in CT, I'd definitely have gotten snow tires or possibly gone with an xi.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

hmmmm - $800 to $1000 for snow tires, change them a couple of times per year and god forbid you have a storm prior to changing them over, storage for the spare set, need to have correct torque or your rotors will warp....

Why not just get an XI? Next time someone tells you something bad about an XI you can challenge them to the following:

1. Race around back roads thru the twisties and I'll bet the XI will do just as good as the RWD model, maybe even better depending on road surface conditions.

2. Race around in the snow and I'll bet the RWD does not stand a chance in hell at keeping up with your XI.

I know these are not practical situations, but too many people think the XI is a sacrifice But in reality you don't sacrifice on anything by going with the XI.

Some complain about the little gap between the wheels and wheel well. If something like that bothers you, then you are better off getting a RWD BMW.

And the thing about the XI being heavier. Well, I guess all that weight must make it go faster because it's quicker off the line than a RWD 3 series.

The only true negative about the XI is the fact that it's only available in a 4 door.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

A RWD car with snows will beat a AWD car with summer tires on it in the snow.

Again it's all about traction. 4 spinning wheels doesn't do a thing if you can't get the power effectively to the road. Nick can attest to that.

Change to snows in late fall, switch to summers in mid spring, and there should be no reason to be caught off guard. Your tires will last longer too. Torque wrenches are idiot-proof... torque them to the right number, and you won't warp them.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

FireFly said:


> *hmmmm - $800 to $1000 for snow tires, change them a couple of times per year and god forbid you have a storm prior to changing them over, storage for the spare set, need to have correct torque or your rotors will warp....
> 
> Why not just get an XI? Next time someone tells you something bad about an XI you can challenge them to the following:
> 
> ...


The xi has a HUGE disadvantage compared to the RWD bimmers when it comes to highway stability. Cornering is also just plain not as good. And ADB-X generates massive understeer under certain circumstances.

The xi is fast off the line because you can dump the clutch at ludicrous RPMs without wheelspin. Launch at, say, 2500RPMs, and the 330i will take it.

Besides, if you want your car to be able to corner, you REALLY need a set of decent summer tires. The OEM all seasons are crap, AND the stock tires are narrow.

If I'd gone with a RWD SP, I'd have saved a good deal of money. I WOULDN'T have shelled out for the xi and I wouldn't have bought performance wheels and rubber. Instead, I'd have gone for the winter tire/wheel package from TireRack.

Finally, I'm not convinced the RWD bimmers are any worse off than the xis if they have proper winter tires, instead of the all seasons that come on the AWD bimmers.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

alee - Xi's don't get summer tires. They get As tires...

So then lets do an apples to apples here. Put summers on an XI in the summer and it will rock around a RWD BMW. Put winters on an XI in the winter and it will put to shame almost anything on the road.

Why is it that RWD BMW drivers are the first to put the XI down yet all of my friends who drive A4's and s4's think the Xi rocks?

Why does the X5 share the same AWD system as the Xi? Why didn't they make the X5 a RWD SUV? Why is the X5 rated as one of the best automobiles ever tested?

Save yourself the troubles of buying torque wrenches and spare wheels and beater cars and go for something which will keep you safe and make you happy.


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## beauport (Jul 2, 2002)

skingsland said:


> *I'm pretty close to ordering a 330, and am a little worried about the performance of the car in snow. A coworker has a '01 325, and can barely make a 1% incline when it snows. Another acquaintance rents an SUV instead of driving his '02 330CiC. And believe me, it has *really* snowed around here in the last couple weeks.
> 
> My current car is a vw passat (front wheel drive) with traction control, and it kicks ass in the snow and ice. But guys I work with who own rear wheel drive sports cars usually walk to work when it snows. Even though it doesn't usually snow much here in DC, that still doesn't sound good to me.
> 
> ...


I've got a 330Ci and it came with 18" summer tires. I learned quickly in December and our first large snowfall that the car is horrible with the summer set up. I couldn't get 10 feet from the house. Bought a set of Blizzak LM-22 and its a wholly different car. Tonight may be the worst driving in DC for some time as the snow went on top of slick roads and made for real treachery. The car did fantastic, my only concern were the crazies in the SUV's and people who just don't know better. Easily drove up a hill that others failed to get up and who had to turn themselves around and go back down. Don't judge a BMW rwd in the winter without proper tires.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

FireFly said:


> *Why is it that RWD BMW drivers are the first to put the XI down yet all of my friends who drive A4's and s4's think the Xi rocks?*


I'm certainly not down on the AWD system. Depending on the conditions you face, it may or may not be more than you need.

For what it's worth, if you compare apples to apples, you are spending more money for an AWD with snows than you are for a RWD with snows.


> *Save yourself the troubles of buying torque wrenches and spare wheels and beater cars and go for something which will keep you safe and make you happy. *


A good torque wrench should be in everyone's garage.

As for spare wheels, if you run with A/S tires, you are always compromising. I have maximum traction for the summer and maximum traction for the winter. I would say that's the safest way to go on any car... RWD, FWD or AWD.


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## skyehill (Feb 19, 2003)

Living in Chapel Hill, we mainly get ice and sleet and not snow. This year we've had it all. My BMW323ci (and I assume my new 330i) had fun in the snow. It's fun to make the car spin out and swerve around a bit. Where these cars stink is on the ice. We had a sleet storm recently that left 2 inches of packed ice on the roads. Sheer ice. On sheer ice all DSC does for you is make you go straight into a ditch instead of slipping and sliding sideways into a ditch. On icy days my car doesn't leave the garage. On snow days, I go out and enjoy myself (I have AS tires. We don't get enough snow to warrant snow tires).

There's very few cars that could handle turns on a sheet of ice, though.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

*So then lets do an apples to apples here. Put summers on an XI in the summer and it will rock around a RWD BMW. Put winters on an XI in the winter and it will put to shame almost anything on the road.*

Sure. But then you've spent a lot more money than putting snow tires on a RWD Bimmer. Besides, by the time the snow gets deep enough that AWD is actually necessary, the snow is too deep for an xi to move, ANYWAY.

*Why is it that RWD BMW drivers are the first to put the XI down yet all of my friends who drive A4's and s4's think the Xi rocks?*

I'm an AWD Bimmer owner, and I say the AWD system and it's associated compromises annoy me based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. ADB-X makes the car understeer like a pig when cornering under power. It's almost impossible under most cirumstances to get the tail loose.

*Why does the X5 share the same AWD system as the Xi? Why didn't they make the X5 a RWD SUV? Why is the X5 rated as one of the best automobiles ever tested?*

The X5 had to be AWD or it would sell. And the X5 AWD system is little more advanced than that of a Jeep Wrangler.

*Save yourself the troubles of buying torque wrenches and spare wheels and beater cars and go for something which will keep you safe and make you happy. *

If you care about performance, you'll end up buying another set of wheels ANYWAY.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

"The xi has a HUGE disadvantage compared to the RWD bimmers when it comes to highway stability. "

Nick you gotta explain this one to me. How is an AWD vehicle less stable at HW speeds? 

I don't exactly know what you mean by this either:
"Cornering is also just plain not as good. "

And Alee, you really don't need snows on an XI.

I'm by no means bashing RWD BMW's- I am a former RWD BMW owner and loved it. But hated it in the winter. It was just terrible. I even had studded snow tires on the rear rims and it was a PITA to get around when there was hardpack snow on the ground.

I would not try and convince someone in a warm climate to get an XI- I think that would be foolish. But if it snow where you live, it's hard to justify not getting an XI if you want to get a BMW.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

skyehill said:


> *(I have AS tires. We don't get enough snow to warrant snow tires).*


Not to pick on you, but this is one of my own personal pet peeves, so don't take it to heart! 

Snow tires are NOT just for snow. They are for ice and cold weather as well. In fact, the compound is optimized for cold weather. As the weather gets progressively colder, summer tires lose their traction rapidly -- snows do not have this problem.

All season tires remain the ultimate compromise. I choose the right tire for the right season. Summers for the warmer weather, snows for the colder weather.


> *There's very few cars that could handle turns on a sheet of ice, though. *


Blizzaks are exceptional on ice. Studded snows are also good on ice too.  It's not the car that makes or breaks this situation.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Get snows. We've had about 50 inches of snowfall this winter. My 330 has never been stuck, never slipped a wheel except if I'm playing :bigpimp:, and driven through blizzard conditions without a wimper from DSC. Great on icy roads too. I have Dunlop Winter Sport M2's, which I highly recommend, mounted on the factory M68's. :str8pimpi RWD in winter is awesome. Gotta love kickin the tail out at will.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

FireFly said:


> *I even had studded snow tires on the rear rims*


What were on the fronts?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

*"The xi has a HUGE disadvantage compared to the RWD bimmers when it comes to highway stability. "

Nick you gotta explain this one to me. How is an AWD vehicle less stable at HW speeds? *

Purely a suspension issue. I'm assuming that a combination of a higher center of gravity, more turbulence under the car, and a less well tuned suspension contribute to this. The car is simply not as stable. And I've driven the car on so many different tires by now that I can reasonably definitively say that that is NOT the issue.

*I don't exactly know what you mean by this either:
"Cornering is also just plain not as good. "*

It isn't. At low speeds in tight corners, ADB-X kicks in on the front wheels, generating massive understeer. At high speeds, the comparatively poor body control, higher center of gravity, less stiff shocks, smaller swaybars and all the rest come into play.

If the xi had front and rear limited slip differentials, AND a suspension that matched the RWD SP, it would be a great car. Heck, if you could disable ADB-X and leave the double open diffs, the car would handle a LOT better in low speed corners. It's a good car, but it is IN NO WAY as good as a RWD Bimmer in the dry. And I'm simply not convinced that the system is significantly better in all the rest.


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