# "Maverick Service"?



## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

I have a CA that agreed to do an ED and PCD for $999 over invoice, including doc fees. The vehicle purchase agreement I received appears largely as I would expect, except for a line called "Maverick Service," which tacks on an additional $240.

What is "Maverick Service"? It seems outside the realm of tax, title, and license, and so my initial inclination is to lump this in with dealer profit. If we agreed to $999 over invoice, should that item be there?

On that note (although I a less concerned about this, just looking for clarity) there is also a tag & title fee listed. Should I expect to see this fee, even if I live in a different state from the dealer and am doing a PCD? What tag and title service should I expect from a dealer in this situation?

Thanks in advance for your insights and advice.


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## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

Perhaps there is some relation to the "Maverick Technology" described in this link? Nothing else popped up on Goggle to be instructive.

https://www.mavericktechnology.co.uk/products/bmw-passthru-package


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

Did you ask your dealer what the "Maverick Service" was? Never heard the term used reading this forum. Obviously, tax/title/tags would be extra.

The $999 profit/doc fees seem reasonable. What model are you ordering?


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

I am ordering an M235xi, picking it up in Munich next week. 

I've not asked the CA what the "maverick service" is yet; figured that I would try to verify that this was not something obvious and standard that I was overlooking first.


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

In my out-of-state ED&PCD purchase I had a similar deal, $1,119 over invoice including all fees except ttl and applicable incentives. I paid $300 for ttl and will be refunded the overcharge once the ttl has been processed, awaiting PCD. Never heard of "Maverick Service". I can only say that my CA has provided me with maverick service. When signing the final paperwork the dealer had tacked on some sort of new 'service', but ate that charge and my CA honored the deal as agreed upon months earlier.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Could it be a third-party contractor the dealer uses to handle out-of-state registrations?


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## JTDM (Jul 22, 2014)

Once a board sponsor mentioned this as notarized services. Obviously you do deal out of state. Make sense to use a notarized service.


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

Is $999.00 over invoice "good"? That seems high to me. I paid $500 over invoice on my 2012 128i convertible and 2015 X1 xDrive. But that was then and this is now.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Maverick Signings: https://mavsign.com/


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

It turns out to be what Mr. Avila indicated. ^^^^^^

I would consider $999 over invoice to be reasonable, more so because I was able to apply the $1000 option allowance. True, it wasn't $500 over minus the option allowance, but the total came in about where I expected it to come in when I was planning the purchase. When my expectations are met, I'm happy.

An exception to having my expectations met in this case was the Maverick fee and, perhaps more importantly, how and when it was introduced. The CA understands that I am unhappy about the fee because it was not made transparent earlier in our transaction and, of course, affects the bottom line. That said, I understand why a dealership might mandate the use of such services and that it incurs a cost that would not be necessary if I was there in person to sign papers.

In any case, the upshot seems to be that some dealers now assess this charge in certain circumstances, and they aren't open to negotiation. Use that info as you see fit.

As an aside: I am very hopeful that everything else will proceed smoothly and will meet or exceed my expectations. For me (as I am sure it is for many of you), this event is the culmination of years of toiling, planning, and saving. I am bringing my dad along for ED, and he has made it clear that this is a one-shot deal for him. I'd really like it to go well, and I can't wait to get on the plane. :thumbup:


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

shinobiprof said:


> It turns out to be what Mr. Avila indicated. ^^^^^^
> 
> I would consider $999 over invoice to be reasonable, more so because I was able to apply the $1000 option allowance. True, it wasn't $500 over minus the option allowance, but the total came in about where I expected it to come in when I was planning the purchase. When my expectations are met, I'm happy.
> 
> ...


Based on what I've seen others pay for an ED, 1K-incl-doc-fee over invoice is a good price indeed. If the $300 Maverick Service fee is so you don't have to go to an out-of-state dealer to sign papers, then I would consider that to be a good deal still. I was lucky it worked out in my case, but had it not, I would have paid $300 over travelling 8 hours to sign papers.

Enjoy your ED!


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

I would tell him to take the Maverick Service and shove it. You can Fedex paperwork back & forth - that's what the doc fees are for.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

If you don't like paying it, then ask him about going to a different notary and you pay the notary fees yourself. You can go to places like AAA and UPS Store and they will charge you 10-20 for notary services


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Notary for what? I don't remember going to one and the first time I was at the dealers was to pick up the car. Everything was done by phone, fax, email and FedEx.


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

Gluhwein said:


> Is $999.00 over invoice "good"? That seems high to me. I paid $500 over invoice on my 2012 128i convertible and 2015 X1 xDrive. But that was then and this is now.


You never know how the dealer structures a deal. At the end of the day he has to make a profit or he won't survive. Generally speaking $500 over invoice isn't enough profit for the dealer to survive. 
Maybe he needed that last car to make a quota and get a bonus so he gave you a good deal. Or maybe he marked up the money factor and made up his profit on "the back end". Or maybe he knows you're a loyal customer and will get your service. 
Or maybe.....(fill in the blank)


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Isn't it more than notarization? Also out of state registration? Tax and payments?

I did it myself, and it was a hassle. I had to go to the DMV two or three times, documents MSO going back and forth with corrections etc. There was a staffing change at my dealership, so they were in some ways making rookie mistakes.

I think $299 to avoid the hassles, for myself and the dealership, is probably about right. Caveat - when it's more than just notarization.


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

Given the circumstances, I'm going treat the experience as $240 for an "immersive learning" exercise. We'll see what it turns out to be like. I'll report on what is included and will let you know how the rest of the process goes.

Again, I'm really hoping for a great time in Germany, and smooth sailing from here through PCD. I'm also looking for clear, timely, courteous, competent, and fair treatment by the dealership and the CA. They should be proactive when needed and responsive when required. I'm sure that it within their capacity to deliver these things; we'll see if they do. That's what they're being paid for, after all. I would really like to be able to give them a positive recommendation when this is all done.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

///m-furby said:


> if you don't like paying it, then ask him about going to a different notary and you pay the notary fees yourself. You can go to places like aaa and ups store and they will charge you 10-20 for notary services


+1


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Wine-O said:


> I would tell him to take the Maverick Service and shove it. You can Fedex paperwork back & forth - that's what the doc fees are for.


Really? So you'd tell me to shove it?  And I thought we were friends, buddy. 

As I mentioned to the OP via email. It's not only for the client's protection against identity theft and fraudulent deals, but for our protection as well. Plus, it ensures that all paperwork gets properly signed, mistakes can be avoided, and that paperwork is executed promptly.


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## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

shinobiprof said:


> It turns out to be what Mr. Avila indicated. ^^^^^^
> .....
> 
> An exception to having my expectations met in this case was the Maverick fee and, perhaps *more importantly, how and when it was introduced.* The CA understands that I am unhappy about the fee because it was not made transparent earlier in our transaction and, of course, affects the bottom line. s is a one-shot deal for him. .....:


That of course is the salient point - "how and when it was introduced." Anytime fees are added after the deal is made the customer has a right to be miffed. I tend to agree that in substance these are "document fees" and since the original deal was that the dealer included "all document fees" in the original negotiations then this really should be absorbed by the dealer as part of office overhead - especially since as Adrian pointed out this is in reality, as much as anything, for the dealer's protection.

Hopefully the dealer can make amends by some type of goodwill gesture such as offering a credit toward accessories or at least giving the customer that $300 BMW jacket that has been sitting in the showcase unsold for two years.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

1northcar said:


> That of course is the salient point - "how and when it was introduced." Anytime fees are added after the deal is made the customer has a right to be miffed. I tend to agree that in substance these are "document fees" and since the original deal was that the dealer included "all document fees" in the original negotiations then this really should be absorbed by the dealer as part of office overhead.
> 
> Hopefully the dealer can make amends by some type of goodwill gesture such as offering a credit toward accessories or at least giving the customer that $300 BMW jacket that has been sitting in the showcase unsold for two years.


It was clearly noted as documentation fee and profit. The goodwill gesture was doing $999 over invoice altogether.


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## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

adrian's bmw said:


> *It* was clearly noted as documentation fee and profit. The goodwill gesture was doing $999 over invoice altogether.


? Not clear what "it" refers to?

Is the OP incorrect with regard to not being told at the time the deal was made that there would be an extra $240 as a Maverick Fee?

"QUOTE: That of course is the salient point - "how and when it was introduced." *Anytime fees are added after the deal is made the customer has a right to be miffed*. I tend to agree that in substance these are "document fees" and since the original deal was that the dealer included "all document fees" in the original negotiations then this really should be absorbed by the dealer as part of office overhead - especially since as Adrian pointed out this is in reality, as much as anything, for the dealer's protection.

Hopefully the dealer can make amends by some type of goodwill gesture such as offering a credit toward accessories or at least giving the customer that $300 BMW jacket that has been sitting in the showcase unsold for two years."


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## pranav_jindal (Apr 9, 2012)

I am in the same boat and have the same deal with Adrian! If my understanding is correct, the reason why the Maverick fee surfaced towards the end was because United Gwinnett (Adrian's new work place) does only Maverick signings while his old place was fine with using FedEx. 

Now of course, you can argue how this fees should be split, and I discussed the same thing with Adrian. Bottom line - this is fee which Maverick signing charges United Gwinnett for the notary services. Even though am not too happy about it myself, I trust Adrian and agreed to pay this additional amount to leverage Adrian's expertise for ED and PCD of my car in May this year.


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## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

pranav_jindal said:


> I am in the same boat and have the same deal with Adrian! If my understanding is correct, the reason why the Maverick fee surfaced towards the end was because United Gwinnett (Adrian's new work place) does only Maverick signings while his old place was fine with using FedEx.
> 
> Now of course, you can argue how this fees should be split, and I discussed the same thing with Adrian. Bottom line - this is fee which Maverick signing charges United Gwinnett for the notary services. Even though am not too happy about it myself, I trust Adrian and agreed to pay this additional amount to leverage Adrian's expertise for ED and PCD of my car in May this year.


Thanks for the added insight. Of course when the prior employer was using FedEX its support staff had to spend time that is presumably now being saved by the new employer now contracting out those services. In effect the buyer is now helping to pay for what in the past was office overhead and thus could only be passed on to the purchaser as part of the profit from the deal. All can be remedied though by the buyer being told up front that there will be an extra $240 charged when the deal is made. That would be needed information for someone who is "shopping" comparative deals.


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## pranav_jindal (Apr 9, 2012)

1northcar said:


> All can be remedied though by the buyer being told up front that there will be an extra $240 charged when the deal is made. That would be needed information for someone who is "shopping" comparative deals.


Completely agree! Except for in this case, I am assuming Adrian didn't know how the system worked at the new dealership, which is fair.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

1northcar said:


> ? Not clear what "it" refers to?
> 
> Is the OP incorrect with regard to not being told at the time the deal was made that there would be an extra $240 as a Maverick Fee?
> 
> ...


Allow me to clarify. This fee wasn't in play at my old center. It is in play at my new center. It's required on every out of state deal.

Just the dealer's protection? Really? No, it's for the client's protection as well- as I mentioned in other posts elsewhere: fraud and identity theft exist out there. What if one's identity was stolen and someone did ED in their name? The car's in Europe and gets exported elsewhere. You think that doesn't happen? It's happened. And I'm actually glad that this center uses this service. It's professional, there's someone there to go over the paperwork, it's expedited, and it's secure. Overnight fees cost what- $30-40 each way? So we're talking about $60-$80 included in the Maverick fee. Now we're at $120-$160 fee. On a $40-$100k plus automobile- is that really going to break someone's budget? :dunno: I'd trade that for security and assurance any day. And if one doesn't want to pay it, well, I won't take it personally and we won't do business. Or that person could be trying to buy a car through fraudulent means and I just helped one person who's identity was stolen from buying a car. I'm fine with that.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

Adrian, I have an ED booked through you for June 3rd at a price we agreed a few weeks ago. Is this going to be charged over and above what we agreed? What other surprises are in store for me?


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

It's an additional fee above and beyond documentation fee and profit. Those two items exclude any additional fees necessary to facilitate the purchase. Surprises? No...


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

Correct. Adrian did not know about the fee when he switched dealers. It appears that some of us got caught by surprise in this transition (along with Adrian). I am sure that this fee will be made transparent to everyone who considers using Adrian's services in the future.

I can see the potential value in a service like this. I'm not going to debate that value (or perhaps necessity) right now, or whether the same work could be accomplished with a local notary. That is a different point. From my perspective, the point is that the original deal was for $999 over invoice, including all doc fees. When Adrian changed dealers, he explicitly offered me the choice of continuing the transaction with him for the same deal. I agreed. He was also gracious to apply the $1000 incentive, which I appreciate.

To be clear, though: My first encounter with this Maverick fee was when I received the vehicle purchase agreement on Tuesday. It appeared without explanation or discussion.

I can certainly understand that moves come with some chaos, changes, and surprises. It also makes sense to consider how those complexities are handled and to do it well. I think that perhaps part of the price of recruiting Adrian to join one's dealership might include one or some combination of the following: (a) Respect the existing deals that Adrian has already made with his clients and absorb any additional costs that might come with that brief introductory period; (b) Go the extra mile to make sure that communications with those "in-transition" clients about any alterations to such deals are clear, and (c) Make profuse apologies and/or reasonable token concessions to those who got stuck with mandatory extra charges that were not part of the deal made with Adrian. Doing just a few things like this well would show respect for the CA and for his clients and potentially foster strong relationships and customer loyalty in the long run.

Just my two cents.

Still looking forward to getting on the plane on Monday. :thumbup:


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

shinobiprof said:


> Correct. Adrian did not know about the fee when he switched dealers. It appears that some of us got caught by surprise in this transition (along with Adrian). I am sure that this fee will be made transparent to everyone who considers using Adrian's services in the future.
> 
> I can see the potential value in a service like this. I'm not going to debate that value (or perhaps necessity) right now, or whether the same work could be accomplished with a local notary. That is a different point. From my perspective, the point is that the original deal was for $999 over invoice, including all doc fees. When Adrian changed dealers, he explicitly offered me the choice of continuing the transaction with him for the same deal. I agreed. He was also gracious to apply the $1000 incentive, which I appreciate.
> 
> ...


Well said.

To be clear, my move was not a recruitment. I was fortunate that I was able to continue the same overall deal structure and even more thankful you wanted to continue the deal with me. Indeed, every company has their own polices and processes. Thanks for your feedback.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

shinobiprof said:


> Correct. Adrian did not know about the fee when he switched dealers. It appears that some of us got caught by surprise in this transition (along with Adrian). I am sure that this fee will be made transparent to everyone who considers using Adrian's services in the future.
> 
> I can see the potential value in a service like this. I'm not going to debate that value (or perhaps necessity) right now, or whether the same work could be accomplished with a local notary. That is a different point. From my perspective, the point is that the original deal was for $999 over invoice, including all doc fees. When Adrian changed dealers, he explicitly offered me the choice of continuing the transaction with him for the same deal. I agreed. He was also gracious to apply the $1000 incentive, which I appreciate.
> 
> ...


Well put, this reflects rather badly on the dealership. Their lack of respect for Adrian and his client's agreements is just not good business practice.

Enjoy the rest of your ED experience.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

What ever happened to "on the street" pricing? Is it still possible to get the final price with everything added in before commitment?


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

4Fan said:


> Well put, this reflects rather badly on the dealership. Their lack of respect for Adrian and his client's agreements is just not good business practice.
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your ED experience.


I disagree, 4Fan. If anything, this is a direct reflection of ME. So please don't pin this on the new dealership.

In getting settled in last month, I'm learning about the new store's processes and fees. The OP's purchase is the first ED coming to the finish line to do paperwork this month. Two others and you followed me through my move. In doing so, it's enlightening that the OP posted a discussion about this. Being a forum sponsor and contributor, I have no issues engaging in discussion, learning, and growing from this. Some very good points have been made. 1Northcar and the OP, especially. That being said, I do apologize that this necessary fee hasn't been disclosed since it is new. For the three of you, as 1Northcar pointed out as an excellent idea, as a matter of goodwil and service recovery, I will purchase an accessory for each of you. And not on the dealership's dime as they have no part in this unique situation. I trust and hope this is a fair solution.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

adrian's bmw said:


> I disagree, 4Fan. If anything, this is a direct reflection of ME. So please don't pin this on the new dealership.
> 
> In getting settled in last month, I'm learning about the new store's processes and fees. The OP's purchase is the first ED coming to the finish line to do paperwork this month. Two others and you followed me through my move. In doing so, it's enlightening that the OP posted a discussion about this. Being a forum sponsor and contributor, I have no issues engaging in discussion, learning, and growing from this. Some very good points have been made. 1Northcar and the OP, especially. That being said, I do apologize that this necessary fee hasn't been disclosed since it is new. For the three of you, as 1Northcar pointed out as an excellent idea, as a matter of goodwil and service recovery, I will purchase an accessory for each of you. And not on the dealership's dime as they have no part in this unique situation. I trust and hope this is a fair solution.


Adrian, it appears that we, your clients, and also you have been caught unawares by this Gwinnett business practice. The discomfort is in being blindsided more than the actual increased cost. I appreciate your offer, but I do not think you should have to incur a personal expenditure as a result of this, I would rather we just accept the situation and move on.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

4Fan said:


> Adrian, it appears that we, your clients, and also you have been caught unawares by this Gwinnett business practice. The discomfort is in being blindsided more than the actual increased cost. I appreciate your offer, but I do not think you should have to incur a personal expenditure as a result of this, I would rather we just accept the situation and move on.


I think it's really my responsibility to effectively communicate the increased cost. Thankfully, going forward, this cost is now properly disclosed in my proposals.

Again, it's not Gwinnett's fault. It's mine alone.


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

Thanks, Adrian. I think that we're on the right track and appreciate your reply. I'll email you with some questions shortly; I have not heard from Maverick yet and time is growing short.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> What ever happened to "on the street" pricing? Is it still possible to get the final price with everything added in before commitment?


Yes, of course, and that's the best way for you as the buyer to structure your offer to make sure there aren't any surprises later. We called it OTD (out-the-door). That works on cash deals and finance deals but doesn't really apply to lease deals unless you structure your offer with all of the money terms spelled out by you: x-dollars total drive-offs, x-dollars total monthly payment for x-months, x-dollars residual for x-miles per year. That would be the same as an OTD offer on a cash deal or a finance deal. This would be a great way for you, the buyer, to structure any ordered-car deal so that you don't get hit with surprises later on. Just say, "deal is x-dollars OTD," draw a circle around it and have both the salesperson and a manager sign inside that circle. That's your deal.

If there is a trade-in involved, then all you have to do with a cash or finance deal is structure your offer as balance due from you. The only thing that could change would be if your payoff on your trade was not a verified payoff. You would owe the difference or the dealer would owe you a refund because when you sign the authorization for payoff it will have an amount shown on it. It that amount is too low, you owe the difference; if it's too high, they owe you a refund.

Some customers prefer dealing that way and some salespeople do, too, but for different reasons. No need to haggle forever on the value of the trade when you're dealing on an OTD basis. Just tell the salesperson, "my car and $40,000 OTD is my deal." If they come back "$42,000 and your car OTD," then you negotiate from there but always on an OTD basis. Their computer can roll the numbers to arrive at an exact total price to the penny. Makes it easier to write the check.


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## pranav_jindal (Apr 9, 2012)

Adrian, as 4Fan said, thank you for the generous offer but I do not want this deal to burn a hole in your pocket. If everything goes smoothly, I might not even remember the 240 bucks when I get back from Europe


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

So, as has been noted several times this service protects both the seller and the buyer. However, it is absolutely true the dealer is much more concerned about protecting themselves than they are with protecting you. And why wouldn't they be? Their exposure to loss is exponentially larger yours. Dealers who have their dealership personnel handle this task open themselves up to fraud they could otherwise avoid. The service includes substantially more than getting some notary signatures.

I must admit the fee struck me as high and my first thought was that the dealer was padding it with some additional profit. I'm glad Adrian confirmed it is not marked up.

All the talk of whether $999 over invoice is low enough really makes me wonder how many people here understand how BMWNA compensates dealers for ED deals. BMWNA makes ED deals pretty unattractive for dealers and there is no shortage of dealers who will not do an ED deal for less than full ED MSRP.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

tturedraider said:


> All the talk of whether $999 over invoice is low enough really makes me wonder how many people here understand how BMWNA compensates dealers for ED deals.


And I wonder how accurate that $999 number is once all sales incentives extended from BMWNA to dealers are accounted for.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

Gary J said:


> And I wonder how accurate that $999 number is once all sales incentives extended from BMWNA to dealers are accounted for.


Remember that if you are doing an ED this year at invoice plus, you are paying about $1,500 more than you would have paid last December. (Due to the 2% reduction in the ED discount, and the $475 added to invoice price) How that money is divided between BMWNA and the dealers is of course a mystery, but given the objections some of the large dealers have to ED I would expect there is some sweetening of their deal.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

4Fan said:


> ...but given the objections some of the large dealers have to ED I would expect there is some sweetening of their deal.


Or maybe it is just the opposite. Maybe BMW made it more expensive to choose European Delivery at the request of those large chain dealers who look at it as a way for out-of-the-area dealers to pull potential customers out of their available pool of potential customers.


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## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

4Fan said:


> Remember that if you are doing an ED this year at invoice plus, you are paying about $1,500 more than you would have paid last December. (Due to the 2% reduction in the ED discount, and the $475 added to invoice price) How that money is divided between BMWNA and the dealers is of course a mystery, but given the objections some of the large dealers have to ED I would expect there is some sweetening of their deal.


The economics of it have changed definitely - this will likely be my last European Delivery unless BMW sweetens the deal for the consumer somehow:

Improved Dropoff Network - Allows for more creative itineraries. Current locations are relatively limited compared to several years ago. There are a lot of places in Europe I'd like to visit that would be difficult on an ED trip. Additionally, public transportation in Europe is cheap, convenient and easy.
Special behind-the-scenes tours (not the factory tour which is open to the general public). Something special and unique (not that ED isn't) to draw consumers back for multiple ED's.
Improved travel discounts - Airfare, hotels, restaurants. Currently not even worth the trouble to quote.

I personally like the savings received from the ED program and I never considered doing ED for the savings alone. However, if I can get a better deal locally and allows me to travel elsewhere on the limited vacation weeks I receive each year, I'll go with local (or PCD).

I understand why they changed the program, I recall some of the threads on this forum where people were merely going over there for the savings - turning right around and flying home. Additionally, BMW was quick to tout record number of deliveries. Any smart company would capitalize on the excess demand and increase the cost to balance out supply and demand. I'm going to be curious to see if this has any long-lasting impact on the number of people doing ED from the states (and this forum).

However, I may change my tune after my upcoming ED, but after some of the troubles I've had with this recent transaction (unable to get a delivery date), I've definitely lost the feeling of "It's the only way to purchase a new car" and feel that it is more of a novelty.


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## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Back on topic. My dealer charged me a reasonable documentation fee in addition to the agreed upon Invoice+ price. I am assuming they are also using the Maverick service as they indicated that for closing of the financing they would send a service to my home/work to complete my paperwork. Sounds pretty convenient, and I don't have to get the hard sell from the Finance department on additional services. Given the cost involved with traveling to this out-of-state dealer in lieu of being charged for the service, I thought it was reasonable.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Face128i said:


> The economics of it have changed definitely - this will likely be my last European Delivery unless BMW sweetens the deal for the consumer somehow:
> 
> Improved Dropoff Network - Allows for more creative itineraries. Current locations are relatively limited compared to several years ago. There are a lot of places in Europe I'd like to visit that would be difficult on an ED trip. Additionally, public transportation in Europe is cheap, convenient and easy.
> Special behind-the-scenes tours (not the factory tour which is open to the general public). Something special and unique (not that ED isn't) to draw consumers back for multiple ED's.
> Improved travel discounts - Airfare, hotels, restaurants. Currently not even worth the trouble to quote.


Just to show how different viewpoints can be I think 12 dropoff points are great, don't much care about tours and discounts is just more talk about money.


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## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Gary J said:


> Just to show how different viewpoints can be I think 12 dropoff points are great, don't much care about tours and discounts is just more talk about money.


:dunno: I'll admit the last bullet point is "talk about money" - but the others aren't. Although I don't want to drive a MB, someone concerned only about money will find the MB program superior, no?

All I am saying about the drop off points is that it limits options in Europe. I've already spent two weeks in Germany, and while I love the country, I'd like to spend some of my limited vacation time experiencing other cultures. IIRC, there used to be drop off locations in London, Madrid (or Barcelona) and Italy used to be free (although still required a third party driver).

Of the 12 locations, a few of them aren't convenient to popular tourist locations or locations with international departures:

Hamberg - I understand there are some cultural sites nearby, but this is close enough to Bremerhaven to be redundant
Bremerhaven
Sindelfingen (Stutgart)
Frankfurt (Convenient for the Ring)

That leaves eight locations in: Paris, Nice, Amsterdam, Antwerp, Geneva, Zurich, Munich and Vienna.

If they add a few more locations it opens up a much wider range of itineraries:

Copenhagen, Stockholm, or Oslo 
Madrid or Barcelona
Rome
Somewhere on the eastern Adriatic (Dubrovnic)

Please don't take my post as complaining - I love the ED program. Perhaps I'll change my mind after visiting again in April - but currently ED has begun to lose it's luster.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> :dunno: I'll admit the last bullet point is "talk about money" - but the others aren't. Although I don't want to drive a MB, someone concerned only about money will find the MB program superior, no?


It's more of a discount from the factory if that's what you mean. It's still 7% off the entire MSRP instead of 5% off base MSRP. Also, MB does not charge the destination & handling fee ($995 on BMW) on ED. They throw in one night at a hotel in Stuttgart. Another advantage is that their free insurance is for 15 days instead of 14.

However, you get taxi vouchers instead of Sixt limo service to pick you up at the airport and they limit you to breakfast or lunch the day of your delivery. BMW lets you hit up the Premium Lounge at will. The tricky part is that many Mercedes dealers will still not match the prices you can get at many BMW dealers. Some of them refuse to discount from the ED MSRP at all. Most BMW dealers will. Of course, the biggest issue with the MB European Delivery program is that you have to take a Mercedes, not a BMW. So there's that. :tsk:



> IIRC, there used to be drop off locations in London, Madrid (or Barcelona) and Italy used to be free (although still required a third party driver).


Quite a few Bimmerfesters have reported that you can still drop off in London provided you get permission and provided you pay an extra fee.



> If they add a few more locations it opens up a much wider range of itineraries:
> 
> Copenhagen, Stockholm, or Oslo
> Madrid or Barcelona
> ...


There are still 8 drop-off locations in Italy for a fee. Rome will cost you 858.80 euro. The BLG Logistics driver will meet you at the reserved time and place and drive your car back to Munich.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

*Is BMW letting ED die?*



Face128i said:


> Please don't take my post as complaining - I love the ED program. Perhaps I'll change my mind after visiting again in April - but currently ED has begun to lose it's luster.





Ninong said:


> Maybe BMW made it more expensive to choose European Delivery at the request of those large chain dealers who look at it as a way for out-of-the-area dealers to pull potential customers out of their available pool of potential customers.





Face128i said:


> The economics of it have changed definitely - this will likely be my last European Delivery unless BMW sweetens the deal for the consumer somehow:
> 
> However, I may change my tune after my upcoming ED, but after some of the troubles I've had with this recent transaction (unable to get a delivery date), I've definitely lost the feeling of "It's the only way to purchase a new car" and feel that it is more of a novelty.


Is ED dying?


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## Face128i (Nov 19, 2008)

Ninong said:


> It's more of a discount from the factory if that's what you mean. It's still 7% off the entire MSRP instead of 5% off base MSRP. Also, MB does not charge the destination & handling fee ($995 on BMW) on ED. They throw in one night at a hotel in Stuttgart. Another advantage is that their free insurance is for 15 days instead of 14.
> 
> However, you get taxi vouchers instead of Sixt limo service to pick you up at the airport and they limit you to breakfast or lunch the day of your delivery. BMW lets you hit up the Premium Lounge at will. The tricky part is that many Mercedes dealers will still not match the prices you can get at many BMW dealers. Some of them refuse to discount from the ED MSRP at all. Most BMW dealers will. Of course, the biggest issue with the MB European Delivery program is that you have to take a Mercedes, not a BMW. So there's that. :tsk:
> 
> ...


Very good points - and agree with the biggest issue with the MB ED program is the choice of vehicle. 

I wonder what the take rate is on some of the delivery locations and the Italy drop-off for a fee. I am curious why they don't drop some of the lesser utilized locations? I understand Stuttgart makes sense if visiting the Black Forest, but who is going to drop off there when Munich, Frankfurt and Zurich are only ~2 hours travel time? Does anyone know why BMW would put a drop-off office there?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> I wonder what the take rate is on some of the delivery locations and the Italy drop-off for a fee.


Nice and Paris add one to two weeks extra. If you drop off in Italy, your car is going to be driven from there to Munich. It's not going to get trucked. And you're paying up to a $1,000 for that.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

argh said:


> Based on what I've seen others pay for an ED, 1K-incl-doc-fee over invoice is a good price indeed. !


I need to start charging more..


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Ninong said:


> Nice and Paris add one to two weeks extra. If you drop off in Italy, your car is going to be driven from there to Munich. It's not going to get trucked. And you're paying up to a $1,000 for that.


Has something changed with Nice? It used to fall within the normal 6-8 week East coast range.


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

By way of an update, for those who are interested in how the Maverick service works: The local Maverick representative received the papers yesterday and contacted me late in the afternoon. He said that he would not be able to get the packet sent back out until today. We just met a few minutes ago; all of the papers are signed, things notarized as needed, checks and copies of IDs enclosed, and he'll have it sent back out today by FedEx. (He did not leave me with any copies of anything, but said that the dealership would send my copies back to me after processing.) Very easy and quick experience overall.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

shinobiprof said:


> By way of an update, for those who are interested in how the Maverick service works: The local Maverick representative received the papers yesterday and contacted me late in the afternoon. He said that he would not be able to get the packet sent back out until today. We just met a few minutes ago; all of the papers are signed, things notarized as needed, checks and copies of IDs enclosed, and he'll have it sent back out today by FedEx. (He did not leave me with any copies of anything, but said that the dealership would send my copies back to me after processing.) Very easy and quick experience overall.


Cutting it rather fine weren't you? Flying to Munich on Monday I understand.....


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> Has something changed with Nice? It used to fall within the normal 6-8 week East coast range.


It may still arrive within 6-8 weeks to the East Coast but BMW's European Delivery FAQ tells you that "vehicles dropped off outside of Germany may take an additional week."


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

shinobiprof said:


> We just met a few minutes ago


You met? I did not have to go anywhere or meet anyone until re-delivery pickup.



Ninong said:


> It may still arrive within 6-8 weeks to the East Coast but BMW's European Delivery FAQ tells you that "vehicles dropped off outside of Germany may take an additional week."


From Nice mine was 8 weeks.


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## CliffJumper (Aug 24, 2008)

Ninong said:


> It's more of a discount from the factory if that's what you mean. It's still 7% off the entire MSRP instead of 5% off base MSRP. Also, MB does not charge the destination & handling fee ($995 on BMW) on ED. They throw in one night at a hotel in Stuttgart. Another advantage is that their free insurance is for 15 days instead of 14.
> 
> However, you get taxi vouchers instead of Sixt limo service to pick you up at the airport and they limit you to breakfast or lunch the day of your delivery. BMW lets you hit up the Premium Lounge at will. *The tricky part is that many Mercedes dealers will still not match the prices you can get at many BMW dealers. Some of them refuse to discount from the ED MSRP at all. Most BMW dealers will.* Of course, the biggest issue with the MB European Delivery program is that you have to take a Mercedes, not a BMW. So there's that. :tsk:


As someone who is about to do an MB ED in a month, I can verify that MB dealers loathe to negotiate off of the ED MSRP. In the end, my dealer is doing it because of a special situation that I don't want to get into, but I had called a number of dealers who wouldn't budge.

Re: Maverick service... while I was a very happy customer of Adrian's 7 years ago, and would probably use him again if there was a BMW that fit my desires/needs, his posts in this thread don't make me feel warm and fuzzy.

This Maverick service seems like it saves time, cost and risk for a dealer to do functions that are core to a dealer's business. Much like a "doc fee", it feels a bit sleazy that this is added in excess of "profit" above invoice. What next, charge for the electric and internet bills? Maybe charge per minute for phone calls the way lawyers do?


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

CliffJumper said:


> Re: Maverick service... while I was a very happy customer of Adrian's 7 years ago, and would probably use him again if there was a BMW that fit my desires/needs, his posts in this thread don't make me feel warm and fuzzy.
> 
> This Maverick service seems like it saves time, cost and risk for a dealer to do functions that are core to a dealer's business. Much like a "doc fee", it feels a bit sleazy that this is added in excess of "profit" above invoice. What next, charge for the electric and internet bills? Maybe charge per minute for phone calls the way lawyers do?


I'm with you. My local dealer gave me an excellent ED price, but his "doc fees" were in excess of $500. That was a deal breaker for me. To me, that was just to pad his profit. How much are reasonable "doc fees"? A couple overnight packages can't cost more than $40.

If you're doing ED/PCD, shop around for a board sponsor who won't charge these exorbitant prices.


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

Wine-O said:


> I'm with you. My local dealer gave me an excellent ED price, but his "doc fees" were in excess of $500. That was a deal breaker for me. To me, that was just to pad his profit. How much are reasonable "doc fees"? A couple overnight packages can't cost more than $40.
> 
> If you're doing ED/PCD, shop around for a board sponsor who won't charge these exorbitant prices.


I don't understand the fuss about 'doc fees'. You negotiate for sales price including doc fees, so it doesn't matter what does doc fees are. Ignore the "We have to charge this doc fee" talk and focus on the final price including dealer fees, excluding ttl and potential incentives.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

argh said:


> I don't understand the fuss about 'doc fees'. You negotiate for sales price including doc fees, so it doesn't matter what does doc fees are. Ignore the "We have to charge this doc fee" talk and focus on the final price including dealer fees, excluding ttl and potential incentives.


Both Doc Fees and Maverick Service play a big part in your overall negotiation. If the dealer offers a price $750 over invoice then add in $750 Doc Fees/Maverick Service, I make a big fuss over that. It's all part of the deal that I would walk away from.

Of course, tax, title, registration, plates, yada, yada, yada, are extra.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

argh said:


> I don't understand the fuss about 'doc fees'. You negotiate for sales price including doc fees, so it doesn't matter what does doc fees are. Ignore the "We have to charge this doc fee" talk and focus on the final price including dealer fees, excluding ttl and potential incentives.


Rationalize it all you want but it still amounts to paying more.


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

4Fan said:


> Cutting it rather fine weren't you? Flying to Munich on Monday I understand.....


I believe that the phrase, "just-in-time delivery" applies here. I am guessing that the timeline may have had something to do with the process of getting settled at the new dealer, but perhaps Adrian can chime in on that. Nothing was late, though, and Adrian indicated to me that the PO binds the dealer as a back up in case the paperwork for funding is delayed.

Speaking of "just in time," I'd better get back to packing...


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

Gary J said:


> You met? I did not have to go anywhere or meet anyone until re-delivery pickup.


Yeah, he came over to my house; scheduling was convenient and pretty flexible. The whole thing took about a half hour. I didn't have to go anywhere.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Wine-O said:


> How much are reasonable "doc fees"? A couple overnight packages can't cost more than $40.


The "doc fee" has nothing to do with those costs. It's charged to cash buyers, too. And it was invented long before it was possible to overnight anything. When it was originally invented, more than four decades ago, it was supposed to cover the service of the dealer handling the registration of the car.

In those states that have laws regulating how much the dealer can charge for a "doc fee," you will find that it is reasonable and doesn't vary from dealer to dealer. In most states it is completely unregulated and would require that the customers (aka voters) have more influence over that state's legislators than the NADA in that state. Lots of luck with that. Perhaps you have noticed which states have the highest doc fees. In some states the dealer can't cut the price of the doc fee at all, so in a state like that the best you can do is tell the client advisor that your offer is x-dollars over invoice including the "doc fee" and any other dealer imposed unofficial fees, plus actual official fees, minus all applicable incentives.


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

Wine-O said:


> Both Doc Fees and Maverick Service play a big part in your overall negotiation. If the dealer offers a price $750 over invoice then add in $750 Doc Fees/Maverick Service, I make a big fuss over that. It's all part of the deal that I would walk away from.
> 
> Of course, tax, title, registration, plates, yada, yada, yada, are extra.





Gary J said:


> Rationalize it all you want but it still amounts to paying more.


My point is that you include dealer fees in your negotiations, just like ninong just reiterated. So no surprised or paying more because of a 'doc fee'.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

argh said:


> My point is that you include dealer fees in your negotiations, just like ninong just reiterated. So no surprised or paying more because of a 'doc fee'.


I understand your point. My point is "find another dealer" who doesn't tack on all that crap.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Wine-O said:


> I understand your point. My point is "find another dealer" who doesn't tack on all that crap.


*Wine-O*, speaking of dealer doc fees, what do they charge now in South Carolina now that the South Carolina Supreme Court recently upheld a judgement of $3.6 million against Hendrick for charging excessive doc fees? http://www.fi-magazine.com/channel/...-jury-court-s-3-6-million-doc-fee-ruling.aspx

It's always possible to compare deals from dealers in different states if you simply ask for a total price including the dealer's doc fee and any other unofficial fees imposed by the dealer. That seems easy enough. After all, $1,000 over invoice in California means $1,080 including the doc fee but it means $1,599 in Georgia or $1,699 or more in Florida. If the Florida dealer wants to match the California dealer, he's going to have to give you $619 over invoice plus his doc fee.

You also want to know what they charge, if anything, for a third-party contractor to witness your signing of the documents or for handling the out-of-state registration. In other words, you have to ask them for all of their dealer imposed unofficial fees. Don't forget to ask them if they remove the 78% nitrogen air from the tires and pump them back up with what they claim is 100% nitrogen and then charge you another $125 for that whether you like it or not.

No one has to be concerned about official fees because those are set by the state where the car will be registered. People on the East Coast have to live with the $249, $299, $399, $449, $599, $699 and $899 that some BMW dealers charge them for the so-called doc fee. Or they can move to the West Coast where it's $150 in Washington, $75 in Oregon and $80 in California. In other words, those consumer-friendly states. New York actually has a $75 doc fee and they're on the East Coast but they're sort of an exception.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Here was mine from Georgia dealer

European Delivery MSRP: $67,055 

Proposed Sale Value: $65,555 plus + $199.50 documentation fee + SC sales tax of $300, SC license fees ($116 RegUSA fee + $65 estimated SC license fee), $3 lemon law fee, and $49.95 electronic title registration fee = $66,288.45

2014 BMW 435i Convertible U.S. Delivery


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> Here was mine from Georgia dealer: $199.50 documentation fee


If you used the client advisor I think you used, he gave you his lowest doc fee. His standard doc fee is $599 and maybe $699. So you got his very best doc fee. Of course, all of that may have changed now that he has changed dealerships. For one thing, his new dealership charges a $240 third-party service fee that is the topic of this discussion. Don't forget that the owner of the dealership determines what their doc fee will be and if any of the salespeople will be allowed to stray from that standard dealership doc fee. It's not really up to the individual client advisor to stray from what he is allowed to do.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Yes I don't remember even bringing up doc fee with him but MY17 will be coming up soon and I have some history to remind him of if things look much different this time. :angel:


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> If you used the client advisor I think you used, he gave you his lowest doc fee. His standard doc fee is $599 and maybe $699. So you got his very best doc fee. Of course, all of that may have changed now that he has changed dealerships. For one thing, his new dealership charges a $240 third-party service fee that is the topic of this discussion. Don't forget that the owner of the dealership determines what their doc fee will be and if any of the salespeople will be allowed to stray from that standard dealership doc fee. It's not really up to the individual client advisor to stray from what he is allowed to do.


Same CA, and he assured me that his original quote of a $199 doc fee still stood after his dealership move. Of course he did not know then about the extra $240 Maverick fee.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> Yes I don't remember even bringing up doc fee with him but MY17 will be coming up soon and I have some history to remind him of if things look much different this time. :angel:


Since you're in South Carolina, did you see that the South Carolina Supreme Court recently upheld a $3.6 million judgment against Hendrick over his doc fees? http://www.fi-magazine.com/channel/...-jury-court-s-3-6-million-doc-fee-ruling.aspx


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

No but I am better equipped because of people like you. I'm in Pawleys Island south of Myrtle Beach.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> No but I am better equipped because of people like you. I'm in Pawleys Island south of Myrtle Beach.


My younger brother lived in Myrtle Beach back in the 1950's and I visited him once to be godfather to his first child. Now I'm giving away my age.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

Ninong said:


> *Wine-O*, Or they can move to the West Coast where it's $150 in Washington, $75 in Oregon and $80 in California. In other words, those consumer-friendly states. New York actually has a $75 doc fee and they're on the East Coast but they're sort of an exception.


If you're doing ED/PCD, an agent on the West Coast or even NY would work if the deal was right.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

4Fan said:


> Same CA, and he assured me that his original quote of a $199 doc fee still stood after his dealership move. Of course he did not know then about the extra $240 Maverick fee.


The grand total is almost $1k over invoice plus $240 Maverick Signing Service with the new place. To AZ from GA, overnight expenses are $40 each way, and the difference goes to a mobile notary that brings you your paperwork to your home, office, or wherever you want to meet on your schedule at your convenience to review and sign your paperwork properly and securely.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Jon Shafer said:


> I need to start charging more..


I agree. I think I will going forward. If I was at $2,000 over invoice inclusive of all fees, we'd all get precious minutes of our lives back from reading through this thread because there may not have been a deal. But because I charged the cheapest price, $240 for basically paying for overnight fees and a mobile notary breaks some budgets. Yet if a dealer makes $1k over invoice, they're supposed to absorb these "expenses" because they're making too much money. :angel: It's finally dawning on me why many dealers shun ED's or ask ED MSRP&#8230; And the ones that take the small deals treat them more like transactions than relationships.


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

Is overnight even necessary all the time? My docs were overnighted to me but they sat on my kitchen table for a couple days before I even sent them back. I get if it's a time crunch, but why is overnight necessary if it's months before delivery. If it was simply stated that the fee was b/c of the new dealership and no one had any control over it, it would be more easily accepted by me versus trying to justify something that wasn't apparently necessary for years prior to now, then saying I'm benefiting from it. Just tell it like it is -- you don't have any control over it and it's now a required part of the deals.


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

adrian's bmw said:


> I agree. I think I will going forward. If I was at $2,000 over invoice inclusive of all fees, we'd all get precious minutes of our lives back from reading through this thread because there may not have been a deal. But because I charged the cheapest price, $240 for basically paying for overnight fees and a mobile notary breaks some budgets. Yet if a dealer makes $1k over invoice, they're supposed to absorb these "expenses" because they're making too much money. :angel: It's finally dawning on me why many dealers shun ED's or ask ED MSRP&#8230; And the ones that take the small deals treat them more like transactions than relationships.


Sorry if I'm being a dick, but I refuse to believe this. You wouldn't be a sponsor at this forum if there wasn't something in it for you. Walmart could charge more for their products, but then they'd lose customers just like you would if you stick to 2K over invoice. I"m not saying you're Walmart, but by being here you're smart in the way that you do your business (at least from the perspective of us forum frequenters). If you make a good deal with people here, you're guaranteed to get business from this forum. If you say you're now going to charge a lot more, then you've doomed your business here which would not make sense. If "maverick service" is now forced on you, then just state that it's now a part of your deals because of your new dealership. Don't try to say it's a big benefit to your customers. I'd happily do another deal with you, as long as you're honest about what that fee is and don't try to sell it to me as something I should be glad I'm getting.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

frank325 said:


> Is overnight even necessary all the time? My docs were overnighted to me but they sat on my kitchen table for a couple days before I even sent them back. I get if it's a time crunch, but why is overnight necessary if it's months before delivery. If it was simply stated that the fee was b/c of the new dealership and no one had any control over it, it would be more easily accepted by me versus trying to justify something that wasn't apparently necessary for years prior to now, then saying I'm benefiting from it. Just tell it like it is -- you don't have any control over it and it's now a required part of the deals.


Yes, overnight services are required. It's consistent and expeditious. Uniquely, many times, for ED's, the car gets built a couple of weeks prior to delivery, so the dealer doesn't have a VIN up to that point to contract on.

But yes, the second point is true, too. It's a fee that's required of all out of state deals, new or pre-owned, PCD, or ED. I don't have any say or control over it. If you're not coming to the dealer to sign, we use Maverick Signings to verify the buyer, get docs properly signed, and get them promptly back.


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

adrian's bmw said:


> But yes, the second point is true, too. It's a fee that's required of all out of state deals, new or pre-owned, PCD, or ED. I don't have any say or control over it. If you're not coming to the dealer to sign, we use Maverick Signings to verify the buyer, get docs properly signed, and get them promptly back.


That's all I'd have to hear to completely understand the fee. Thank you.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

adrian's bmw said:


> If you're not coming to the dealer to sign, we use Maverick Signings to verify the buyer, get docs properly signed, and get them promptly back.


What is the window for stopping by before ED to sign and save the $240? A couple of weeks before ED date?


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

Gary J said:


> What is the window for stopping by before ED to sign and save the $240? A couple of weeks before ED date?


Oh, come on now -- pay the $240, just because.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

If I pay I'm going to withhold my ED license plate from his collection this time, just because. :rofl:


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Ninong said:


> Since you're in South Carolina, did you see that the South Carolina Supreme Court recently upheld a $3.6 million judgment against Hendrick over his doc fees? http://www.fi-magazine.com/channel/...-jury-court-s-3-6-million-doc-fee-ruling.aspx


Look who is on the 2016 Center of Excellence Award Recipients. :yikes:


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Gary J said:


> What is the window for stopping by before ED to sign and save the $240? A couple of weeks before ED date?


Yes, it's usually a couple of weeks.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Wine-O said:


> Oh, come on now -- pay the $240, just because.


:rofl: Because it's what we do. If one doesn't want to pay it, they can definitely stop by or I can meet them at the airport if they're flying through Atlanta on a layover and I'll take the documents to get signed. Otherwise, the $240 pays a mobile notary and overnight services. If one wants to avoid that altogether, then, well, I guess we won't be doing business. No hard feelings and we're still friends. :thumbup:


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## Boraxo (Sep 6, 2005)

Wine-O said:


> I would tell him to take the Maverick Service and shove it. You can Fedex paperwork back & forth - that's what the doc fees are for.


Agree 100%.



adrian's bmw said:


> Really? So you'd tell me to shove it?  And I thought we were friends, buddy.
> 
> As I mentioned to the OP via email. It's not only for the client's protection against identity theft and fraudulent deals, but for our protection as well. Plus, it ensures that all paperwork gets properly signed, mistakes can be avoided, and that paperwork is executed promptly.


Umm, with all due respect, this is a garbage fee.

I can get free notary service from my local bank to guarantee the signature.

$240 is absurd - if that's the price that the dealer actually pays then the dealer needs to assign one of his negotiating team members to handle vendor contracts.

I would also be curious as to how Maverick ensures paperwork is correct. Really? Do they provide a warranty to that effect? Because every notary and title company I've ever dealt with expressly disclaims any liability for mistakes that are not their own.

Even real estate agents use Docusign now, for transactions that by law must be in writing.



adrian's bmw said:


> :rofl: Because it's what we do. If one doesn't want to pay it, they can definitely stop by or I can meet them at the airport if they're flying through Atlanta on a layover and I'll take the documents to get signed. Otherwise, the $240 pays a mobile notary and overnight services. If one wants to avoid that altogether, then, well, I guess we won't be doing business. No hard feelings and we're still friends. :thumbup:


I have a personal FedEx account where overnight delivery runs me about $8 thanks to a handy negotiated discount from my employer.

Certainly you are entitled to turn away deals, but if your cost is really $240 for Maverick service then I wonder how you can operate a dealership profitably.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Boraxo said:


> I would also be curious as to how Maverick ensures paperwork is correct. Really? Do they provide a warranty to that effect? Because every notary and title company I've ever dealt with expressly disclaims any liability for mistakes that are not their own.


Apparently they do.

"Third party Liability. Notaries carry personal E&O Insurance as well as our blanket E&O Insurance up to $1,000,000 per transaction!"

https://mavsign.com/services/automotive.html

Although it does not cover fraudulent acts according to the definition of E&O insurance and it seems to me to be more about protecting the dealer than the car buyer.

http://www.hiscox.com/small-business-insurance/errors-and-omissions-insurance/e-and-o-coverage/


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> Apparently they do.
> 
> "Third party Liability. Notaries carry personal E&O Insurance as well as our blanket E&O Insurance up to $1,000,000 per transaction!"
> 
> ...


What their E&O insurance policy is covering is only the function they performed in getting the signatures done properly on all the forms that needed signing and in all of the right places. It doesn't cover E&O on the contract itself, which they had nothing to do with preparing. However, it's still a convenience to use an experienced notary who will make sure all of the forms are properly signed.

The most important function they are performing, in addition to providing the customer with convenient personalized service, is verifying the identity of the person signing the documents. Yes, that does protect the dealer but it also protects the customer. Do you want your no-good brother-in-law, who has lousy credit, to borrow your identity to sign your name to a lease at his address because he wasn't able to lease a car in his own name? He won't look anything like the picture on his driver's license unless he has a counterfeit driver's license with your identity and his photo. That could be hard to spot. I did have a situation where a customer's younger brother who looked very much like him, but with a different haircut, did lease a car in his brother's name and then almost immediately after taking delivery he changed the address on the account to his own address to make sure all of the documents went to his house and not his brother's house. That one blew up before the second payment came due and we ended up taking the car back.

There were probably three or four identity fraud situations that I remember but we caught all of them in advance. That was years ago. I'm sure that is even more common now. Even if you aren't held responsible for any of the money involved you are going to have a very stressful time getting all of your credit files straight if it goes on long enough to show unpaid payments and possibly a repo. Do you think the dealer wants to get caught in the middle of something like that? Absolutely not.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Wine-O said:


> Did you ask your dealer what the "Maverick Service" was? Never heard the term used reading this forum. Obviously, tax/title/tags would be extra.
> 
> The $999 profit/doc fees seem reasonable. What model are you ordering?


I wonder if John McCain will be at The Welt to greet the OP...


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

Eagle11 said:


> I wonder if John McCain will be at The Welt to greet the OP...


Fortunately/unfortunately, he was not. It was a tremendous experience -- the delivery at the Welt, the trip, the time with my dad, and of course the car. I'll have a trip report up in the next few days--slammed with work at the moment.

I do have to comment on the quality of the rear view camera. I think that it may be a special prototype unit; the picture is exceptionally clear. In fact, one time when I was backing up in the Alps, I swear that I could see all the way to Russia.


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

My take. If the price were too high or the fees were exorbitant, people would go elsewhere. They don't, therefore the market can sustain the price as it is set.

If the business owner sees sales slipping, then he is free to adjust prices accordingly. This is all basic price economics.

I've been to stores where an item was "on sale" for $20, whereas it was a $4 on Amazon, free Prime S&H. But it made no sense to start going ballistic on the store prices. They are what they are for a reason. Set them too high, sales drop. Set them too low, money is lost.


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

Boraxo said:


> Agree 100%.
> 
> *Umm, with all due respect, this is a garbage fee.*
> 
> I can get free notary service from my local bank to guarantee the signature.


sure. but whence the outrage, comrade?

Don't pay it, easy. It's hard to think of a product more elastic than cars, delivered to the PDC in SC. You can literally get it anywhere in the country! :dunno:


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

zoltrix said:


> My take. If the price were too high or the fees were exorbitant, people would go elsewhere. They don't, therefore the market can sustain the price as it is set.
> 
> If the business owner sees sales slipping, then he is free to adjust prices accordingly. This is all basic price economics.
> 
> I've been to stores where an item was "on sale" for $20, whereas it was a $4 on Amazon, free Prime S&H. But it made no sense to start going ballistic on the store prices. They are what they are for a reason. Set them too high, sales drop. Set them too low, money is lost.


You mean like? -

"BMW USA Sales Slide 10.7% in February - Now Down 8.2% YTD"


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> You mean like? -
> 
> "BMW USA Sales Slide 10.7% in February - Now Down 8.2% YTD"


Hmmm... I assume you were expecting this, right? If you understand how BMW retained their Number One in the USA title again in 2015, you would understand why those results in the U.S. were completely expected. Do you remember that BMW did not announce any of their results until the day after all the other manufacturers? Remember that?

This time I don't remember Dr. Z immediately screaming to the media that BMW cheated once again and robbed Mercedes of their rightful place as No. 1 because this time Lexus was ahead of Mercedes in the U.S. But, lo and behold, somehow or other BMW managed to just barely maintain their Number One ranking in both the U.S. and worldwide. Wow! Talk about magic! 

You would have to understand *how BMW counts cars as sold* to understand how they did it and why it's showing up now as lower than expected sales numbers in the U.S. *in spite of the fact that BMW's sales of BMW brand vehicles increased by 8.3% to a total of 277,304 units worldwide in the first two months of 2016.* http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/03/11/bmw-group-sales-rose-7-9-total-163965-worldwide-february-2016/

Here's another hint: http://www.autonews.com/article/201...s-not-ideal-but-it-happens-says-bmws-willisch

You can't count a car as sold twice. If you count it as sold in 2015, you can't count it again when you sell it to an actual retail customer even if that car has less than 10 miles on the odometer and wasn't really a "demo" in the usual sense of the word. All BMW can do is add the actual buyer's identity to their records.

By the way, do you know what BMW's "terrible" results were in February compared to Mercedes and Lexus? With that horrible decline, you might expect that BMW was crushed by both Lexus and Mercedes in February, right? Here are the actual February sales numbers for Lexus, Mercedes and BMW in February: Lexus - 23,090 (thanks to that little SUV), Mercedes - 22,941, BMW - 22,498. (P.S. - I forgot to say that those are the U.S. results.)

As virtually all of the Automotive News reporters will tell you, "they all do it," it's just that "BMW does it better than anybody." 

BMW is doing great. They had another record year in sales last year and for the 11th straight year they were the Number One Luxury Car Manufacturer in the World! They also had another record year in profits in 2015. Their projection for 2016 is that both sales and profits will increase slightly but there are headwinds ahead, mainly in China, but in spite of a very competitive marketplace and in spite of an expected decline in their number one market, China, they will still keep moving ahead and setting new records for both sales and profits. (P.S. - I forgot to say that by "expected decline in China" I'm talking about a decline in the rate of sales growth, not actual numbers.)


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

I am not entirely sure what your fun with numbers post is saying but it seems generally accepted that BMW kept good incentives in place in December until they were assured of winning the Luxury market in 2015. Then they dropped them and hence the bad numbers so far this year. Check the stock price since 1/1/15 for an indication of consensus on how they are doing.

Also the flagship 7 series is off the a so so start. Look in the forum to see how cheap people are getting them. The good news is Consumer Reports just named it #1 luxury car. I still plan on a MY17 myself.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> I am not entirely sure what your fun with numbers post is saying but it seems generally accepted that BMW kept good incentives in place in December until they were assured of winning the Luxury market in 2015. Then they dropped them and hence the bad numbers so far this year. Check the stock price since 1/1/15 for an indication of consensus on how they are doing.
> 
> Also the flagship 7 series is off the a so so start. Look in the forum to see how cheap people are getting them. The good news is Consumer Reports just named it #1 luxury car. I still plan on a MY17 myself.


Obviously I still haven't gotten my point across. Let me try to put it as clearly as I possibly can: Stop paying attention to the reported sales in January. They are meaningless. BMW is still absorbing sales that were reported as sold previously but that weren't what you, and most others, would consider "sales." When those cars that have already been counted, using BMW's special 'magic,' are really sold to a real live customer, they don't count because they have already been counted. You and I can't possibly know how many cars BMW really sold in January. We can only know what they reported. Please don't take any of those numbers seriously.

Here's some more "fun with numbers" for your amusement. Last month BMW outsold Mercedes by 9,667 cars (that's just BMW brand). BMW outsold Audi by 16,919 cars. Those are worldwide sales. That means BMW is 'catching up' after the poor "reported" sales in January.

*Worldwide Sales for February 2016*

143,419 BMW
133,752 Mercedes
126,500 Audi

http://europe.autonews.com/article/...round-in-february-in-global-luxury-sales-race

Lexus is never a player on the worldwide stage, it's just in the U.S. market that they really competitive and a threat to be number one again.

What those February numbers mean is that BMW is playing catchup now following their poor "reported" sales in January. Yes, it is true that the new 7-series is not yet making a significant dent into the S-Class sales but not all 7-series models have been introduced yet. It's a slow rollout process. In the meantime, BMW can't make SUVs fast enough to satisfy worldwide demand. The new G30 won't be out till early next year, so no help there this year. BMW is still predicting that they will retain both their worldwide title and their U.S. title in 2016. And that's in spite of what they refer to as fierce competition. They have predicted a slight increase in profits as well as sales for this year. Their predictions almost always turn out to be on the conservative side.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

WOODCLIFF LAKE, N.J., April 1, 2016 /PRNewswire/ -- Sales of BMW brand vehicles decreased 12.5 percent in March for a total of 30,033 compared to 34,310 vehicles sold in March, 2015. Year-to-date, BMW brand is down 10.0 percent on sales of 70,613 compared to 78,492 sold in the first three months of 2015.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

I will be glad when BMW finally absorbs all those Specialty 8 Demo Status cars. I heard one particular dealer in Southern California who keeps 800 to 900 new cars in stock actually put hundreds of his cars in that status, meaning BMW already counted them as sold last year. You can only count the same VIN once.

At least I know that BMW fully expects that their 2016 sales will be better than their 2015 sales and that their 2016 profits will exceed their 2015 profits. Both are expected to set new records once again.

BMW set a new record for sales in 2015 and a new records for profits. They are predicting that their sales will be slightly higher in 2016 than they were in 2015 and their EBT will set a new record, while EBIT will remain in the target range of 8 to 10 percent. It was 9.2% in 2015. http://newskitchen.eu/2016/03/16/an...-member-of-the-board-of-management-of-bmw-ag/


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Ninong said:


> Obviously I still haven't gotten my point across. Let me try to put it as clearly as I possibly can: Stop paying attention to the reported sales in January.


If my answer gets deleted so should this condescending gratuitous post.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

I should have said people should not be misled by January's reported sales.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

There is an article in the NY Times on March 31, 2016 that discusses this tactic: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/01/a...etween-dealer-and-carmaker-on-sales.html?_r=0

A member of Bimmerfest posted a link to that article and I responded to his post here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606277&postcount=2

Once again BMW was asked about this practice and they do not deny it. Here's Ludwig Willisch's reponse on March 22: https://home.autonews.com/clickshar...s-not-ideal-but-it-happens-says-bmws-willisch

It happens. It has been happening for several years. They all do it but BMW does it best. BMW has been number one in U.S. luxury car sales four out of the past five years, Mercedes was number one once. Then, several weeks after the end of one of those years, Dieter Zetsche made a big stick that he just learned that Mercedes actually had more registrations than BMW that year and therefore Mercedes should have been number one.

Well, that's not the way it works. It's reported sales, not registrations. It has always been that way. No one wants to wait until sometime in February to see who had the most registrations. Besides, Mercedes reported more sales that year than they registered just like BMW did except BMW did it better. Then the following year BMW still beat Mercedes even though BMWs reported sales were less than their actual registrations because registrations were finally catching up to the previously reported sales.

Now this year Lexus is yelling fowl because on Feb. 12th they realized that they had a few more registrations than BMW last year so they should be number one. That's not how it works, Lexus. Grow up!

BMW announced their reported sales number one day after the other guys this year and, to absolutely no one's surprise, they just barely hung on to Number One in Luxury Car Sales in the U.S. and Number One in Luxury Car Sales Worldwide.

My guess is the Lexus will be number one in the U.S. this year. Before that earthquake and tsunami hit Japan and knocked out a lot of their automotive capacity they had been number one in the U.S. the previous decade. I don't know who will be second and who will be third but those two spots will be held by BMW and Mercedes. Worldwide it will be either BMW or Mercedes at the top with Audi in third place in 2016.


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