# DPF Delete



## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm actively looking at shops here in Southern California to do a DPF delete on my car, in lieu of repairing the melted DPF and other bits. I'm curious how many of you would be interested in pursuing this avenue if I could get a shop here in the states that will, aside from the one on the East coast, which apparently just opened their doors to this mod (with the support of an EU based company)?

Part of the purpose of this is to create a fire under the shops here to get this moving. I can tell you that 2 very reputable shops I talked to have been considering this, but haven't moved forward with it. My phone calls today definitely peaked interest on their end, though. Both shops have spent extensive time working on BMW's, and I know the owner of one of them...the other came highly recommended from a close friend of mine who knows the Director of Marketing, who won a drift competition in his M3 last weekend, and is very, very well known.

Information is limited at the moment, but both shops are more focused on fabbing a new downpipe, rather than coring out the DPF, which while may be a little more expensive, is worth the work, imo.


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

And this is going to do what to your emissions system? Screwing with this is just asking for trouble with the DMV at emissions testing time, as well as trying to sell it later with the modified emissions system that may or may not pass the diesel test. I doubt many shops in CA would be willing to do this unless the car was flatbedded in and flatbedded out as they are breaking the law by removing emissions controls on a car that will be used on the public roadway.:angel:


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

The California emissions tests for diesels consist of a visual and ODB scan, nothing more. And the visual isn't that intensive.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Admittedly, Texas and California are at near the two extremes. Texas has no emission check for diesels. Just the standard safety inspection for tires, horn, blinkers, safety belts. I've thought about doing something similar. My one obstacle would be trying to sell it to a person out of state that does require a sniff test. When you say OBD scan, does this look at readings from the pre and post SCR sensors? I know you are discussiing DPF not SCR. I'm going to call the inspect company and see if they read the OBD.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

I verified with the inspection place. Texas only does the safety inspect for diesels. Sorry to hear about the DPF meltdown. What happened? Long duration regen or too much diesel after injection crank up the temps in the cannister? I'm on the 3rd coast (Gulf) of the country so either driving East or West will be a long damn way for me.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

My DPF melted/clogged the day after it was replaced. Tell me how *that* makes any sense.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Did an Indy do the job or the dealer? Seems that whichever shop would be liable for some of the costs.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

It was at the dealer.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

I think the Feds, i.e. DOT and/or NHTSA would be interested in this event. The DPF is part of the emissions system. Did you car have more than 80K miles? If not, might be covered under the OEM Emissions warranty. Good luck.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

rmorin49 said:


> I think the Feds, i.e. DOT and/or NHTSA would be interested in this event. The DEF is part of the emissions system. Did you car have more than 80K miles? If not, might be covered under the OEM Emissions warranty. Good luck.


Emissions warranty is 7/70k, not 80k, unfortunately.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Stugots said:


> It was at the dealer.


When I recently had an injector + intake manifold replaced, the dealer said the parts are covered by a 2 year warranty.
So your dealer should fix your D since the work was just completed recently?

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

DC-IT said:


> When I recently had an injector + intake manifold replaced, the dealer said the parts are covered by a 2 year warranty.
> So your dealer should fix your D since the work was just completed recently?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


The warranty administrator is denying because the same thing happened the next day after picking up the car from the dealership. And, some of the parts had been replaced previous to that. It seems to be a frequency issue that they're having.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

If the parts failed so soon after the repair then they could be defective?
I'd tell the dealer that the problem is not fixed right in the first place and make it their responsibility.
Hope they are giving you a loaner while your D is in the shop.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Bimmer App


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

DC-IT said:


> If the parts failed so soon after the repair then they could be defective?
> I'd tell the dealer that the problem is not fixed right in the first place and make it their responsibility.
> Hope they are giving you a loaner while your D is in the shop.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Bimmer App


If the car wasn't modified, this wouldn't be an issue. But because it is, that's what's causing the problem with the warranty replacement (note that the car has always been modified when it's come into the dealership).


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Stugots said:


> If the car wasn't modified, this wouldn't be an issue. But because it is, that's what's causing the problem with the warranty replacement (note that the car has always been modified when it's come into the dealership).


Did you pay for the last repair?
If so then request a refund or the dealer to deliver the car with your problem fixed since it recur when you took it back thus it wasn't fixed properly.

Had the dealer warned you that since you've modified your D they cannot guarantee they can fix it then they have an excuse.

Can you remove all mods and revert back to factory and then get it fixed?

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## ddeliber (Jan 31, 2013)

DC-IT said:


> Did you pay for the last repair?
> If so then request a refund or the dealer to deliver the car with your problem fixed since it recur when you took it back thus it wasn't fixed properly.
> 
> Had the dealer warned you that since you've modified your D they cannot guarantee they can fix it then they have an excuse.
> ...


I'm with DC-IT here. You know what, even if they warned you about the mods and warranty it really shouldn't matter if the failure happened so shortly after the repair work. If you are concerned, go ahead and revert to stock (at least the meth and tune) and go to (you probably should give them a call first) a different dealer (even if you need to drive a bit).

Tell they you are very disappointed with the work that the previous dealer did along with their customer service. I would also say that you are looking for a new place for all of your service needs. This will probably get them more in the mood to work with you. It really can't hurt in this case, if they say no the only thing you lose is a bit of time.

Sure the DPF delete sounds good, but I would be concerned about the issues that would come up in a year or so regarding emissions. The last thing I would want is to have to un-do all that work just to be able to get the car registered.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your problems. I commend you for taking responsibility and not trying to get BMW to pay for something that is in a vehicle operating way outside its intended configuration. When we start modifying things we should all recognize that we are our own warranty station.

Now, some things that may have caused this melting issue ...

From a previous PM exchange you had mentioned you were going to be using methanol concentrations above 50%. It's now a flamable liquid... The autoignition temp of methanol is ~878F (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/methanol-water-d_987.html). The cetane rating of methanol is ~4. I'm not sure how your JBD controller decides to turn on/off injection, but since it only has access to rail pressure I'm wagering it's using that. And I'd also wager you're using a fairly large volume nozzle to spray the methanol into your intake.

So, what may have been happening was the DPF was doing a regen. During regen's the DPF is trying to sustain ~1150F to burn off the soot (see posts 21-23 here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598240). The DDE is creating a controlled burn using post injection (dumping raw diesel out the exhaust to burn in the DPF), and the DPF is well above the autoignition temp of methanol!. If during this time you are also doing some aggressive accelerations which cause the rail pressure to increase, which turns on your methanol injection, and then let off the accelerator pedal, the pre and main fuel injection events stop, so no diesel is going into the cylinders. However, you have your intake loaded up with methanol (and depending on how the JBD controller works, might continue injecting for a bit until the rail pressure drops below some threshold). Due to the low cetane rating of menthol it will fail to ignite in the cylinder now (since there's no diesel being injected to start the burn) and be dumped right out the exhaust ports (like the post injection fuel) into the already burning DPF, but in a way that is outside the control of the DDE. This creates a very, very bad scenario ...

If others are venturing into the methanol injection game I'd encourage you to know how to tell when the DPF is doing a regen, be able to gauge the temp of the DPF, and know how/when you're dumping methanol into the system.

The DPF temp (at least on US cars) can be monitored easily with a cheap OBD dongle and the Torque App for Android phones. This and the EGR/Throttle behavior make it evident when the DPF is doing a regen. AEM sells a nice water/methanol gauge that will show you precisely when and how much liquid you are dumping in your system.

Best of luck, and hope you get your car back on the road soon.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Not venturing with METH I learned my lesson with my amigo Ron1n, to much BS of a system to later try to fight BMW for something i caused!!


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

TDIwyse said:


> Sorry to hear about your problems. I commend you for taking responsibility and not trying to get BMW to pay for something that is in a vehicle operating way outside its intended configuration. When we start modifying things we should all recognize that we are our own warranty station.
> 
> Now, some things that may have caused this melting issue ...
> 
> ...


This is likely what happened, and you're the first person to broach the subject specifically, including my master tech. I was warned about the flammabilitiy above the 50/50 threshold, and while perhaps I've been lucky up to this point, it appears this was bound to happen sooner or later.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Ron1n check your local junkyards to see if they can do a search for any 335d that has been totaled!! and buy it from them it would be LESS cost efective dont you think so


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Axel61 said:


> Ron1n check your local junkyards to see if they can do a search for any 335d that has been totaled!! and buy it from them it would be LESS cost efective dont you think so


I already have someone working on that, actually.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Update on the car: Dealership isn't budging on anything, including cost on repairs. Looking at about $4700. I've suggested they replace everything but the DPF, but Nick isn't sure the car will run with the DPF in its current state. Way I see it, the sensors have to be replaced regardless, no matter how I proceed, so getting a quote just for that. Looks like the car is going to have to be garaged until I find another DPF, or I find a shop that's willing to do the DPF delete and coding.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Threads such as this one lead me to believe that mods while the car is under warranty can be risky.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Mods are risky whether under warranty or not. Just the way it is.


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## Sylvan Lake V35 (Nov 18, 2012)

I have also been looking into this, a few guys would fabricate a one off pipe but it's expensive. I was thinking about drilling it out myself. Another thing I am going to look into is tricking the urea injection I have heard the domestic guys are some how getting around it.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Sylvan Lake V35 said:


> I have also been looking into this, a few guys would fabricate a one off pipe but it's expensive. I was thinking about drilling it out myself. Another thing I am going to look into is tricking the urea injection I have heard the domestic guys are some how getting around it.


I would think the DEF would be the easiest one to jumper out. Just need to figure out what signals the control needs to "run" normal, like level, and I think it has some type of density sensor so it knows if you put in something other than DEF.

Gotta be a few bright boys out there that can solve that one.:thumbup:


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

For the DEF, there are two techniques that are used to check that the tank is refilled with the proper liquid (not water). The resistivity of the fluid is measured in the tank. To check that the system is working properly, there is a NoX sensor in the exhaust after the SRC. DEF is injected and the NoX sensor should detect a change in NoX concentration. I no change is detected, the fault code is turned ON.

If someone bypass the system and the computer is able to detect it, the car will be prevented to start. This is an EPA requirement.


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## subdude (Apr 11, 2013)

I think a lot of these exhaust systems that use DPF/SCR are fairly common. Looking at the sensors for my 6.7l PS the PCM(DDE) looks at DEF tank level and determines effectiveness by a NOx/O sensor post SCR. If those values are above a certain threshold a message is generated informing the operator of bad DEF.


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## subdude (Apr 11, 2013)

Resitivity/conductivity would be fairly simple to fool. The issue would be maintaining the proper ratio of gas concentration measurements inlet to outlet. I do not see the sensor on my 6.7l that measures resitivity but I do see the one that measures NOx/O post SCR. I have not read up on the X5 enough yet....


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

So, after some work under the car today, I've determined that my SCR cat is clogged. Unbolted the DPF from the midpipe and let it run free, and all the power that was lost because of it seems to have returned. My issue before was there was no power at all, going up hills was a serious effort, and the car would continually go into limp. That no longer seems to be the case. Should be visiting a fab shop tomorrow to have the SCR cat removed and replaced with a straightpipe. As a side note, the car sounds beastly at the moment.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Lenny at RENNtech has the DPF delet all he needs is a GUINEA PIG in Florida to test it and needs tha car for several days I believe to get the kinks out!!!


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Driving to Florida is a little more realistic than Cali or far up the east coast. Where in Florida?


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

My SCR cat is getting cored out now, and I'm removing the mufflers, as well. Not touching the DPF yet.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

BB_cuda said:


> Driving to Florida is a little more realistic than Cali or far up the east coast. Where in Florida?


Renntech is in Orlando area. Just up the road from me, but I'm not yet ready to tinker.:thumbup:


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

RENNtech is in WPB in the Lake Park area Flyingman ur GPS is wrong LOL

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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Axel61 said:


> RENNtech is in WPB in the Lake Park area Flyingman ur GPS is wrong LOL
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using BimmerApp mobile app


WPB, that's just about an hour away from me, I thought they were up in Orlando.:yikes:


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

1,127 miles one way from my house to WPB


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

BB_cuda said:


> 1,127 miles one way from my house to WPB


Road Trip! What u waiting for?:dunno:


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

2600 for me. Canada is closer...lol


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Im a flight away from WPB(got to fly into Ft Laud, though!)


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