# Carbon Fiber Hood question



## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

About a year ago, my friend Daniel at BeastPower.com was "talking" on one of the M5 boards about producing a carbon fiber hood. For some reason, that project seemed to die away, but lately there's been talk of a hood made by MA Shaw for the E39. Now, on the Roadfly classifieds, there's an advertisement for a carbon fiber hood for just $999 that supposedly shaves 56 pounds of weight from the car. Is this a third hood or is it the same as the MA Shaw one?










Being the curious type, I went to my ETK and checked out the specifications on the stock hood. According to the ETK, it weighs 21.66 kg, which translates into only 47.75 pounds. (Same part on all the E39 models from the 525i to the M5.) So unless I'm missing something, this carbon fiber hood is impregnated with hydrogen or helium and provides a negative weight of 8.25 pounds! Am I missing something? Do all the ancilary hood parts get discarded when the hood is replaced and do these add up to enough weight to make the claim reasonable? For those who've worked with carbon fiber before, can you tell me what you would expect a piece as large as the E39 hood to weigh? How about after it's clearcoated and painted?



















This sort of modification seems like it could really make a difference on a car like my Impala SS with a huge, heavy hood. But the BMW E39 hood always seemed like it was relatively light. Of course that could be due to the gas charged struts helping to lift it. And what about those struts? Perhaps if you discarded them too? But the ETK says they only weigh 0.214 kg each, which translates to less than half a pound. No, that's not it. Where does all the weight savings come from?


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## DSPTurtle (Oct 4, 2003)

wow


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

DZeckhausen said:


> About a year ago, my friend Daniel at BeastPower.com was "talking" on one of the M5 boards about producing a carbon fiber hood. For some reason, that project seemed to die away, but lately there's been talk of a hood made by MA Shaw for the E39. Now, on the Roadfly classifieds, there's an advertisement for a carbon fiber hood for just $999 that supposedly shaves 56 pounds of weight from the car. Is this a third hood or is it the same as the MA Shaw one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2 years ago I contacted a bunch of CF specialists. The wieght savings is 10lbs max and that is if the CF hood is a real CF hood without the fiberglass backing. BeastPower did make one for an M5, but it was very expensive. In fact, any good CF hood will be over 2k.

There were a couple reasons why I decided not to do the mod:
a) The hood is not going to save any wieght, its for looks only.
b) In the event of an accident, the CF hood will shatter, thus eliviating the structural integrity of the front end. CF will not absorb energy.
c) Of the 3 hoods I saw, only one was the real deal, a local shop in Chicago is making them, but only if a heavy deposit is put down. The price is over $3500.

Lastly, and this is no BS. Ma Shaw makes really poor components. 2 shops I called would not install their parts on any car. When I bought the Pcar, I was going to do some body mods, and I contacted a very reputable tuner and he told me not to even think about Ma Shaw. For those who have never seen Ma Shaw parts they are not a CF specialist. They make fiberglass parts and they fit poorly. 
If you want a good CF hood contact Greddy.
If you are thinking about this mod, take a big step back and consider a CF trunk instead. You will see significant weight savings on the trunk lid.


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## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

jzdinan540i said:


> If you are thinking about this mod, take a big step back and consider a CF trunk instead. You will see significant weight savings on the trunk lid.


Thanks for the information! I'll continue to hold off and watch and wait.

How does one get significant weight savings on the trunk lid? The ETK says that only weighs 12.08 kg or 26.6 pounds.


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## DSPTurtle (Oct 4, 2003)

Because they fill the trunk with helium.
JB


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

DZeckhausen said:


> Thanks for the information! I'll continue to hold off and watch and wait.
> 
> How does one get significant weight savings on the trunk lid? The ETK says that only weighs 12.08 kg or 26.6 pounds.


The trunk lid doen't require any backing, so it should just be CF. A pure CF trunk lid should wiegh less then 5 lbs. I also forgot to tell you, the good shops who make real CF for racing applications usually make 3 different grades of CF. Top quality for those who don't want to paint, a medium grade that will show some of the defects when the CF is laid, and a dirt cheap grade made for paint. The only difference is the way the CF is laid, and the cheaper ones look great for anyone who is going to paint. Also, don't forget that if you are looking at a hood, pay close attention to the brackets and the fit. I have seen many wannabe CF hoods that lift at speed. Some have drilled holes and pinned the hood down.

It all depends on what you are after. If you want looks then go for it. I personally think you would get a bigger bang for the buck by saving this cash for a big mod.

You should look into drive shafts. I broke mine right before I sold the car. I know Danb toasted his as well. This leads me to beleive that anyone running over the stock HP rating will eventually see a drive shaft failure. So you might just be able to come up with a stronger lighter shaft, and I have to imagine it wouldn't be 1k like BMW oem parts are.


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## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

jzdinan540i said:


> You should look into drive shafts. I broke mine right before I sold the car. I know Danb toasted his as well. This leads me to beleive that anyone running over the stock HP rating will eventually see a drive shaft failure. So you might just be able to come up with a stronger lighter shaft, and I have to imagine it wouldn't be 1k like BMW oem parts are.


I have the M5 drive shaft in mine. I'm probably fine for now. Where did your driveshaft fail? At the center bearing, like Dan's?

By the way, the Roadfly classified advert has just been edited to show a more realistic weight savings of just 16 pounds. So, this carbon fiber hood supposedly weighs about 30 pounds. That makes much more sense. For $1000 I can think of more fun ways to lose 16 pounds. Perhaps I'll sign up for tennis camp.


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

DZeckhausen said:


> I have the M5 drive shaft in mine. I'm probably fine for now. Where did your driveshaft fail? At the center bearing, like Dan's?
> 
> By the way, the Roadfly classified advert has just been edited to show a more realistic weight savings of just 16 pounds. So, this carbon fiber hood supposedly weighs about 30 pounds. That makes much more sense. For $1000 I can think of more fun ways to lose 16 pounds. Perhaps I'll sign up for tennis camp.


I think 16lbs is a decent number. It all depends on how much crap they use for backing. Obviously a pure CF hood for a track car would weigh almost nothing. I would buy tires or brakes, or lots of beer before putting a CF hood on a steet car 

My shaft broke at the guibo (sp?) I made a post a while back about it, under thanks Nikolus. It was a big pain in the butt, I don't envy Danny boy at all. The drive shaft must have been slightly out of acceptable margins, because it took an hour of troubleshooting to figure it out. I made some calls and it appears as if these drive shafts are failing often. I can't imagine how much more stress I put on it with all the power I had. If you can figure out a mod on this you might make a nice niche for yourself. I got rapped on the price, but they had me on the road in less then 24 hours.
Another thing to watch out for is the windshield wiper relays, these things are a fortune. Again after numerous calls I found out it is a common problem. I had no wipers for a week trying to figure it out. The relays were $160 with labor at Earhart in Michigan.


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## DanB (Feb 20, 2002)

jzdinan540i said:


> My shaft broke at the guibo (sp?) I made a post a while back about it, under thanks Nikolus. It was a big pain in the butt, I don't envy Danny boy at all. The drive shaft must have been slightly out of acceptable margins, because it took an hour of troubleshooting to figure it out. I made some calls and it appears as if these drive shafts are failing often. I can't imagine how much more stress I put on it with all the power I had. If you can figure out a mod on this you might make a nice niche for yourself. I got rapped on the price, but they had me on the road in less then 24 hours.


My center support bearing took a $hit, and instead of using a machine press for a new center support and risk that the shaft was even slightly bent (requiring having to buy new parts and spend more on labor), I just ordered a whole new driveshaft unit with center support bearing included. It was $340 shipped.

I'm going to throw it in on Friday evening using a friend's shop lift, and if Randy Millar can get permission from his boss (wife), he's going to help out.

I'm not so sure that driveshaft failure is common on E39's. Aside from yours and mine (which were/are very heavily modified), I haven't really heard of many going bad. We do have a source for a company that can make them in Carbon Fiber, but they are about $1000.00 ea cost to make, and would need to have the center support pressed into place. The advantage is that we could then make the u-joints servicable because they'd be machined out of billet aluminum. (Again, not worth it for an E39... No market)

BTW, The RF ad was changed to say it was 16 lbs SAVINGS, not that the new hood is 16 lbs. With rough math, the CF hood is 30 lbs (47 stock weight - 16 lbs "savings" = 31 lbs). $1000 for 16 lbs is $62.5 per lb saved. DaveZ or Millar, would you care to do the math on performance gain?

A rough calculation of weight to 1/4 mile time is that .1 second is gained for every 45 lbs taken off the car, so you are dropping roughly .033 (one third of one tenth) seconds for $1000.00. I could spend $40.00 on a month of trimspa for the same thing. 

So we're left with bling bling factor... The fitment of these MAShaw hoods from Vince at Iforged's pictures indicates that they got this one down right at least in terms of mold quality and tolerances. Yes, there's a lot of fiberglass in this hood (which is why it doesn't weigh 10 lbs), and yes it's ghetto that customers have to clearcoat them (which, BTW, better be done with the right clearcoat or else it's pis$ yellow city in 6 mos), but as far as looks are concerned, these hoods are da bomb.

If I had wager a guess as to how the hoods are made, I would say they pulled a gel-coat mold directly off of a stock hood for the top portion, and filled in the underside of the stock hood with clay or wax to pull a mold off of the structural supports for the bottom portion. The bottom portions were made with 100% fiberglass, and the top was made with a few layers of fiberglass and one or two layers of 3K twill CF on top. Without seeing the hood or knowing the laminate schedule, your guess is as good as mine as to what fabric they used and where. Both portions were likely vacuum bagged for compaction but not autoclaved (or else you wouldn't have to clearcoat them), rather, cured in a conventional industrial oven.

-DanB


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

DanB said:


> My center support bearing took a $hit, and instead of using a machine press for a new center support and risk that the shaft was even slightly bent (requiring having to buy new parts and spend more on labor), I just ordered a whole new driveshaft unit with center support bearing included. It was $340 shipped.
> 
> I'm going to throw it in on Friday evening using a friend's shop lift, and if Randy Millar can get permission from his boss (wife), he's going to help out.
> 
> ...


What up homie?
I owe you a call, but I am probably coming out your way soon. Gotta drive Jimmys new toy , some has to anyway, we all know he can't drive stick :rofl:

If you reread your last paragraph you will see that you aren't really buying a real CF hood, but a fiberglass hodd with a CF top coat. I have no doubt you are right on the fabrication. I had no clue there was no clearcoat on them, if I knew that I wouldn't have had to say a thing. You get what you pay for. Ma Shaw is known for fiberglass, so I am sure it is strong, just not to pretty.

I would go ahead and have a CF shaft made, 1k is the same price as a stock dealer list OEM shaft. The Cf one should wiegh a lot less (might actually be a huge wieght savings here) and be able to take anything you throw at it.

So tell me do I spend 5K for 550hp or 12K for 650? Choices LOLOLOL


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## DanB (Feb 20, 2002)

jzdinan540i said:


> What up homie?
> I owe you a call, but I am probably coming out your way soon. Gotta drive Jimmys new toy , some has to anyway, we all know he can't drive stick :rofl:
> 
> If you reread your last paragraph you will see that you aren't really buying a real CF hood, but a fiberglass hodd with a CF top coat. I have no doubt you are right on the fabrication. I had no clue there was no clearcoat on them, if I knew that I wouldn't have had to say a thing. You get what you pay for. Ma Shaw is known for fiberglass, so I am sure it is strong, just not to pretty.
> ...


Yeah, give me a call sometime you friggin work-a-holic!

In the world of composites, fiberglass is often used as a "filler" material for high quality pieces. Unfortunately, it's also HEAVY. While there's nothing wrong with a fiberglass hood (corvette), it's misleading to call it a Carbon Fiber hood if it is in fact mostly fiberglass, and it's certainly not as light as a true hood.

To make a CF hood the way we would make it (pre-preg material, vacuum bag and autoclave), you would need NO clearcoat because of the quality of the molds and the curing process, it would weigh around 10 lbs, but it would cost $3500 to the market (as you pointed out earlier).

The real problem is that the E39 is still a family sedan, not a PorscheTT. While you and I could name off 10 people who would buy the $3500.00 hood (and CF driveshaft, etc.), it would take 30 hoods sold to recover the cost of the mold alone (with profit). The E39 market is NOT largely a mod-friendly group. In running an aftermarket business, you have to seriously consider the opportunity cost of doing projects like CF hoods for E39's vs. any other product for a better suited market.

-DanB


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## DSPTurtle (Oct 4, 2003)

Hey, this post is world famous. The RF E39Lounge board has lots of discussion regarding this. Interesting read.
JB


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

DSPTurtle said:


> Hey, this post is world famous. The RF E39Lounge board has lots of discussion regarding this. Interesting read.
> JB


You read that board? Its almost as silly as this mod 
Poor Rev, he called us all morons. I find it funny how a guy can have false advertising yet we are morons. Let people buy these crap hoods and sue.

Anyone else find it interesting how Rev only posts during the day? He must be up all night trying to create the next mod; afterall, the guy is a genius, a guru, the most intelligent man in the world. Surely he has come up with a way to turn shale into oil by now.


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## jzdinan540i (Nov 22, 2002)

DanB said:


> Yeah, give me a call sometime you friggin work-a-holic!
> 
> In the world of composites, fiberglass is often used as a "filler" material for high quality pieces. Unfortunately, it's also HEAVY. While there's nothing wrong with a fiberglass hood (corvette), it's misleading to call it a Carbon Fiber hood if it is in fact mostly fiberglass, and it's certainly not as light as a true hood.
> 
> ...


Yes, work has most of my time these days. I am actually able to post this week for a change. 
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree most wont spend the cash on mods. To be honest most should stay away from complex mods as it usually causes them trouble. The E39 is a great car, especially now that they can be bought for the same price as an STI. 
I still think buying one of these hoods is like buying one of those Rolex watches with 2 L's. It is a wannabe mod, and you are buying a fiberglass hood with a CF top coat. It should be advertised as such. I am thinking someone could make a huge deal out of this if they wanted to. OEM's use steel for a reason, and on the track you don't have the same issues. I really don't care how nice it looks, its not CF.
It tends to bother me when people try and steal from a community that allowed them to become part of the group in the first place. I know you would never sell anything the way some have. 
So now that we have figured out that the E39 isn't the market, where are you guys going to start focusing your attention?
If you want a really good laugh, go to www.hartge.com click on the new 6er and brace your self.


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## jvr826 (Apr 22, 2002)

jzdinan540i said:


> So now that we have figured out that the E39 isn't the market, where are you guys going to start focusing your attention?
> If you want a really good laugh, go to www.hartge.com click on the new 6er and brace your self.


Yacht sales?  CF for yachts?

http://www.hartge.de/html/6series.html


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## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

jzdinan540i said:


> If you want a really good laugh, go to www.hartge.com click on the new 6er and brace your self.


Ugh!


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

DZeckhausen said:


> Ugh!


I like that :thumbup:

I hope Bangle does not have me lowering my standards


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

DZeckhausen said:


> Ugh!


That design didn't then work for Studebaker, it probably wouldn't work now for Hartge


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## DSPTurtle (Oct 4, 2003)

I did not think it was possible for me to not like the new 6... I guess anything is possible.
JB


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## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

And if you really want to freak out, take a look at Hartge's X3.... :yikes:


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