# As an American, do you think there is a responsibility to buy American cars?



## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

My '04 e46 is my first non-American car (bought e30 after it). There was and is no American competitor to it, so I don't feel guilty for buying it. 

I bought more than my share of Chrysler products over the years. My '98 Ram never had issues, other than the three transmissions, an annoying driveline vibration that was never found, and an engine that started to die at 150k. The '05 Dakota in my driveway had so many issues in its first two years that it had more trips to the dealer than all other cars I've ever owned combined, including the Ram. So I shed no tears for Chrysler going belly up - they did it to themselves.


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## enc0re (Nov 26, 2006)

I feel a moral obligation to buy the best product available for the money and reward the firm that brings it to me.


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## MMMM_ERT (Mar 13, 2004)

As a previous "GM lifer"... I finally gave up the ghost after years of getting kicked in the balls at the dealer in regards to warranty and service issues. Way to treat customer loyalty... See ya...f**k you...I've moved on. Now with the UAW getting a political present from the Messiah...I will NEVER support any American car company again. It was only GM that I wouldn't buy from before. I will burn in hell before I will support the Big 3. 

Most of the components of those "American" cars are made elsewhere. 
Their dealers are crap and the cars are even worse. What a joke. 

I'm hoping some independant new American car company will come up unchoked by the UAW scum...but I doubt we'll ever see that.


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## RCK (Jan 29, 2003)

Hey Brit...is that a freaking panda in your avatar? :rofl:


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## synenergy52 (Apr 10, 2008)

no


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

a couple people here have mentioned the Pontiac G8. Wasn't that made in Australia?


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

philippek said:


> Hmmm. Seems like you are concerned about the morality of your car buying decisions lately.
> 
> Jus sayin'


Interesting...


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## djfitter (Sep 12, 2007)

All in all I've purchased 4 American (2 Chevys, a Ford, and a Plymouth), 2 German (Mercedes and BMW), and a Japanese (Mazda). I have also driven 8 different service body trucks (company owned) that were all American. I figure I've given American models a shot. They couldn't give me what I wanted this last time. *BMW did*. :thumbup:

dj


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## Fulltone74 (Oct 19, 2005)

When and if the day ever comes that I could afford a Ford GT40 or a Corvette Z06/ZR1, I'll buy American.


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## JagConvert (May 18, 2009)

As others have said, what exactly is an "American" car? I've owned a Chrysler (300M) and it was crap. My wife drives a Lincoln Navigator--don't know where it's made/assembled and don't care, it's what she wanted. I drive a BMW now simply because I want to. As far as cars are concerned, my allegiances are to whichever company brings me the product I want. Free market competition benefits the consumer, all consumers around the world.


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## abelhands (Mar 4, 2009)

vern said:


> Its realy a big joke. Quite a few years ago I worked for a company that made fastners for the auomotive industry and was a UAW shop and on all the bulletin boards they had posters that read "Buy American suport your country " . When I needed a new vehicle I bought a Ford 150. American made. What a joke, the gear box came from Mexico, most of the fastners came from China or Japan etc. and the truck was assembled in Canada. Like I said, what a big joke.
> cheers
> vern


It's not just about where the parts of the car are built though, it's also just supporting American companies, right? Helping them through the tough times.


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## abelhands (Mar 4, 2009)

1985mb said:


> Interesting...


Yes, that is true. I am looking into selling my 95 BMW 525i (if anyone is interested, PM me).


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## Missmodena310 (Oct 9, 2008)

no


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## Z4luvr (Jun 23, 2006)

I used to think that way but after buying a few POS American cars in the 80's, I said "never again". At least one of my Bimmers is made in the USA.


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## superbrew (May 14, 2009)

No, I do not feel any responsibility at all. As others have said, it is the "Buy American" that has contributed in large part to the situation they are in now. There was no need for the big three to be competitive because the American public was going to buy domestic anyway. Now they have nothing to offer that can compete with cars like the Camry or Accord. And the younger generation does not have anything to connect with domestics, as most of the small, entry level domestic cars do not appeal to them. Companies like Honda, Toyota(Scion), and Nissan all have small, likeable(for younger buyers) cars that will create brand loyalty when it comes time to upgrade.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

abelhands said:


> It's not just about where the parts of the car are built though, it's also just supporting American companies, right? Helping them through the tough times.


Yea help them through the tough times. Why didn't UAW members give up any thing ? I remember floor sweepers at the GM plant in Linded, NJ were getting $28.00 per hour while skilled Tool and Die Makers were struggling to make $ 20.00 per hour in UAW shops that were supplying the automotive industry with parts. Yea tough times.
cheers
vern


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

d geek said:


> a couple people here have mentioned the Pontiac G8. Wasn't that made in Australia?


Yup.

Most of GM and Ford's best vehicles are built outside the US.

Ford is finally bringing the Fiesta to the US. Last I checked the US market was finally getting the better Euro Focus too.

GM Europe has a couple of OK small and mid sized cars. Now that GM Europe is seperate from US GM, I doubt GM can build the Astra, Tigra, Corsa or the any of their other european cars in the US. Too bad for GM.

All this has happened before and it will happen again.

*
GM made all the mistakes that British Leyland did. Soon a restructured GM will make the same mistakes as Rover Group. Next BMW will buy GM. After a few years of making crap cars that look like BMWs, BMW Group will walk away from the mess. An employee buyout will follow. A couple more years of miss management, chapter 13 and then a Chinese company will pick up the tooling at 5 cents on the dollar.
*


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> *
> GM made all the mistakes that British Leyland did. Soon a restructured GM will make the same mistakes as Rover Group. Next BMW will buy GM. After a few years of making crap cars that look like BMWs, BMW Group will walk away from the mess. An employee buyout will follow. A couple more years of miss management, chapter 13 and then a Chinese company will pick up the tooling at 5 cents on the dollar.
> *


:bustingup :rofl:


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## BerfsBimmer (Aug 25, 2007)

JagConvert said:


> As others have said, what exactly is an "American" car?


I agree. My last two Acuras were built in Ohio. Many Toyotas are also built in the US.
America is capitalistic and the big 3 need to compete. Competition is good for the consumer.


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## joegwillett (May 3, 2009)

Nope...not at all. 

Try buying tennis shoes (Sneakers) that are made only amaerican...it's almost not possible. 

Same with a coffee pot.


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## RAS100 (Feb 24, 2009)

The ingredients are simple: create quality products that are well-engineered and thoughtfully designed. Market them at a reasonable price and back them up with top-notch service and iron-clad warrantees. The US automakers lost their way and in my opinion have a small chance to come back from collapse. It's a hard market to figure out. Do Americans want low price, top quality, performance? Can we compete with other countries that pay their workers a fraction of what we need to make in the US? Don't know.


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## gcreese (Feb 24, 2009)

I will buy the best car for my needs that is well-built and good value for the money. I had a 1966 Chrysler Newport that was awesome. Since then, I've bought a Subaru, several Volvos, and now a BMW. If an American car were better than a BMW, I'd have no qualms about buying it.


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## jhontou (May 29, 2009)

i might be a little more inclined also about american auto industries "big three" if they were more inclined to take care of there workers and not just inclined to line their ceo's pockets so they can snatch and run. and like mentioned before they arn't worried about employing their fellow country men they are only worried about their profit margins. i bought my car because i like it and enjoy it. buying aftermarket parts supports the small shops..lol does it ever. but i couldn't agree with all of you more


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## 900 (May 25, 2008)

I do go out of my way to "buy american" at my local farmer's market. As for cars only if there from the 1960's or older.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

jhontou said:


> i might be a little more inclined also about american auto industries "big three" if they were more inclined to take care of there workers and not just inclined to line their ceo's pockets so they can snatch and run. and like mentioned before they arn't worried about employing their fellow country men they are only worried about their profit margins. i bought my car because i like it and enjoy it. buying aftermarket parts supports the small shops..lol does it ever. but i couldn't agree with all of you more


You say," if they were more inclined to take care of there workers ", what planet are you living on? Thats one of the main reasons the big three are in trouble. I say again , ' one of the main reasons". The wages and benefits helped kill the big three.
cheers
vern


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

philippek said:


> :bustingup :rofl:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1cO53Kphnc&feature=related


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

vern said:


> Yea help them through the tough times. *Why didn't UAW members give up any thing ?* I remember floor sweepers at the GM plant in Linded, NJ were getting $28.00 per hour while skilled Tool and Die Makers were struggling to make $ 20.00 per hour in UAW shops that were supplying the automotive industry with parts. Yea tough times.
> cheers
> vern


Lately the UAW has given up a hell of a lot. Certainly they were fat and happy for a long time but those times are gone.

Thanks, Mike.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

Michael Schott said:


> Lately the UAW has given up a hell of a lot. Certainly they were fat and happy for a long time but those times are gone.
> 
> Thanks, Mike.


Just maybe they didn't give up enough. Look at what they gave up sense they declared bankruptcy. NOTHING. Retained their wages and ALL their benefits.
cheers
vern


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1cO53Kphnc&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=245NCBsj4Lc&feature=player_embedded


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## indykappa (Jun 15, 2009)

i was a "buy american" guy. my first cars were (in order): oldmobile, buick, chevy, ford, then another oldsmobile.

i fell on some hard times, and had to get some wheels quick. i bought a toyota avalon from an auto auction. the car had 220,000 miles on it. i just sold it a week ago because it couldn't pass the damn NC emissions test (what a racket). it had 296,000 miles on it and was running like a champ. i never replaced a SINGLE thing on the car (not even the battery!!)

from then on, i looked at "foreign" cars differently. i just bought a BMW, and for the first time in my life, i have a car that i truly ENJOY DRIVING. it sounds nice to run around beating your chest and yelling "buy american", but like so many other people have already posted, american car manufacturers better start producing stuff worth buying.

a front wheel drive impala? blah
getting rid of the G8? mistake
not much other than a friggin hybrid to get me 23+ mpg?? try again


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## daisi (Jan 13, 2009)

*New Cars More Scarce Expensive*

The Auto industry has reached a milestone. I don't see the US getting back to the 16-18 million units per year. My perception of cars has changed. I want a car that I can drive for 200K miles over 10 years. That is the plan for my 06 525i.
I have owned a lot of GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles over the years, and presently have an 04 GMC 2500HD crew cab and a 02 Jeep Liberty. Both of these vehicles are pretty good for their intended uses, but they are both trucks. Same plan, keep them 10 years and try to get 200K, they are both about half way now. When its time to replace them the government better be out of the picture or GM and Jeep will not be considered.
I feel that the government will force Ford into accepting a similar fate. Ford's success without the Feds would be a big embarassment. I don't think that Ford is going to win many contracts for military or postal vehicles with the present state of affairs. I would buy a Ford product, but with all the uncertainty in the market, it is a good time to sit tight.
I don't know what the future will bring, but I would bet that larger displacement, higher end cars will be taxed. With all the financial trouble in the USA, drivers might get used to the idea of paying off their car and continue driving it for another 5 years.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

vern said:


> Just maybe they didn't give up enough. Look at what they gave up sense they declared bankruptcy. NOTHING. Retained their wages and ALL their benefits.
> cheers
> vern


At one time the UAW had amazing benefits including full medical coverage for life. That is all gone and workers now have to contribute to their health coverage. Not to mention the 10's of thousands who have lost their jobs.

Don't blame the unions exclusively for the downfall of the US auto industry. There are many factors including product design, high fuel costs, increased foreign competition and most of all the banking crisis and terrible economy.

Thanks, Mike.


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## Z4luvr (Jun 23, 2006)

Michael Schott said:


> At one time the UAW had amazing benefits including full medical coverage for life. That is all gone and workers now have to contribute to their health coverage. Not to mention the 10's of thousands who have lost their jobs.
> 
> Don't blame the unions exclusively for the downfall of the US auto industry. There are many factors including product design, high fuel costs, increased foreign competition and most of all the banking crisis and terrible economy.
> 
> Thanks, Mike.


GM was dead before this latest crisis. It was just the final nail in the coffin. Surely there are many reasons for its failure, but higher costs (both current and legacy) are the number one reason. Higher costs forced them to cut corners on design and allowed foreign competition to undercut them.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

Z4luvr said:


> GM was dead before this latest crisis. It was just the final nail in the coffin. Surely there are many reasons for its failure, but higher costs (both current and legacy) are the number one reason. Higher costs forced them to cut corners on design and allowed foreign competition to undercut them.


+1 $28.00 per hour,in the past, for a floor sweeper. Come on give me a break.
cheers
vern


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## mickey513 (Jun 12, 2003)

Were live in a GLOBAL ECONOMY, not "Made in USA" or "Buy American" only.


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

Z4luvr said:


> GM was dead before this latest crisis. It was just the final nail in the coffin. Surely there are many reasons for its failure, but higher costs (both current and legacy) are the number one reason. Higher costs forced them to cut corners on design and allowed foreign competition to undercut them.


I agree 100%. GM has been "dying" for a decade. If their name wasn't GM and they hadn't started with formerly the largest cash horde of a corporation in the world, they would be long gone now.

I do prefer to buy American when I can - I'll pay more for something that helps my county, but the quality and the workmanship must be as good as I'm giving up. The challenge in this global age is you can't say what is made in America and what isn't. Ford's made in Mexico and GM's made in canada with Toyota's in Alabama, Bimmers in South Carolina. What is American and what isn't? Its easy when buying asparagus or limes, more difficult when you look at cars...


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## peripherique (Jan 18, 2009)

I looked at the Cadillac CTS but just liked the BMW better. An excellent book on the U.S. car makers demise is by David Halberstam, "The Reckoning"


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## peripherique (Jan 18, 2009)

Michael Schott said:


> At one time the UAW had amazing benefits including full medical coverage for life. That is all gone and workers now have to contribute to their health coverage. Not to mention the 10's of thousands who have lost their jobs.
> 
> Don't blame the unions exclusively for the downfall of the US auto industry. There are many factors including product design, high fuel costs, increased foreign competition and most of all the banking crisis and terrible economy.
> 
> Thanks, Mike.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Bethesda E39 (Sep 23, 2008)

I associate American cars with awful reliability, safety, design and build quality.

I credit Ford (somewhat) for their R&D, and large exposure (and decent cars) in other markets around the world, but as far as Chevy and Dodge go....good riddence.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

abelhands said:


> Based on all of the way things are going in the US, do you think American's are obligated morally to buy American cars? I personally feel some responsibility, however, the cars that they make, GM, Chrysler & Ford do not suit my needs really, they are not efficent fuel economy for the most part, and I don't believe, despite recent reports from Consumer reports and JD Power that they are on the right track -specifically for GM and Ford reliability wise. Thoughts?


As an economist I believe Americans are obligated to buy the best value for what meets their needs and preferences. It is a global economy now more than ever and protectionist purchasing habits and actions are just about the worst thing in which Americans could engage. Protectionist attitudes and policies were MAJOR factors that lead to the Great Depression. The 1930 Smoot-Hawley Tariff, enacted because of the United States' lack of understanding of the importance of the global economy, even those many years ago, almost singlehandedly doomed the U.S. to the Great Depression. And the U.S. automakers' refusal to accept and adapt to the global economy for more than the last 30 years is what lead to their current situation.


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## ish (Jan 23, 2007)

No, it's my responsibility to pay taxes, not to buy crap!!!

The unions and the morons that run american auto makers have always lived in the moment, go for the quick bucks, and do not think forward.
Unions suck they are killing our nation.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

ish said:


> No, it's my responsibility to pay taxes, not to buy crap!!!
> 
> The unions and the morons that run american auto makers have always lived in the moment, go for the quick bucks, and do not think forward.
> *Unions suck they are killing our nation.*


Unions certainly are a dichotomy. They played an important role in giving labor representation and improving their lives as the U.S. became an industrial nation.


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## Boraxo (Sep 6, 2005)

abelhands said:


> Based on all of the way things are going in the US, do you think American's are obligated morally to buy American cars? I personally feel some responsibility, however, the cars that they make, GM, Chrysler & Ford do not suit my needs really, they are not efficent fuel economy for the most part, and I don't believe, despite recent reports from Consumer reports and JD Power that they are on the right track -specifically for GM and Ford reliability wise. Thoughts?


ha ha ha ha ha ha! :rofl:

and i say that as a former union steward.

your only obligation as an american is to support the free market system, which means letting the marketplace decide which companies survive, not government. for me that means buying the best car for me, not what some bureaucrat decides should be made. in fact that is a good reason to boycott GM entirely.

in my case I have no doubt BMW makes the best driving sedans, so that is what i bought. did not even consider an american car because there are none that are even close in terms of performance luxury build quality factors.

recently i also bought an acura mdx. in this case i did briefly consider american models (my last SUV was an explorer) but rejected all of them as they offered far less for about the same price. also considered bmw but my brother has one and the reliability was inferior, not acceptable when the price was so much higher.

do not buy because of some misguided patriotic or labour obligation. remember many cars with japanese labels are assembled here in USA with many USA parts.


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## 330ximd (Sep 20, 2005)

tturedraider said:


> As an economist I believe Americans are obligated to buy the best value for what meets their needs and preferences. It is a global economy now more than ever and protectionist purchasing habits and actions are just about the worst thing in which Americans could engage. Protectionist attitudes and policies were MAJOR factors that lead to the Great Depression. The 1930 Smoot-Hawley Tariff, enacted because of the United States' lack of understanding of the importance of the global economy, even those many years ago, almost singlehandedly doomed the U.S. to the Great Depression. And the U.S. automakers' refusal to accept and adapt to the global economy for more than the last 30 years is what lead to their current situation.


Economist? :rofl: Hilarious.


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## ish (Jan 23, 2007)

tturedraider said:


> Unions certainly are a dichotomy. They played an important role in giving labor representation and improving their lives as the U.S. became an industrial nation.


That was valid 100 years ago


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## Flex (Feb 23, 2004)

As some of the folks have mentioned, it's a global economy. Today, the products that we buy in the US may be assembled/made somewhere else in the world although a US company is the one who manufactures it. 

Take a look at Apple. They design their laptops, desktops, iPod, iPhone, etc in the US. But, the products are assembled in China or other oversees locatons. Same thing with Cisco products. Since we're talking about cars, I'm sure the pattern is the same thing for all car manufacturers around the world. Toyota makes the Tacoma in California. Honda makes some of their Civics in Canada and these are sold in the US. How about Mattel products? Where is Barbie really manufactured and assembled these days???

The list goes on and on. You just don't know what's under the hood these days, so to speak. 

Having said all this, as a consumer, I gravitate towards products that fit my needs. Quality to me is important. If that product is crap, then the likelihood of me buying that same product or from that same company in the future will be minimal. If the quality is great, then there's a high probability that I'll buy that same product from that same company again. Name brand recognition is important. 

From my experience, vehicles made by the Big Three just don't fit my needs. Plus, I'm not sold on their quality, design, fuel efficiency, etc. Their products don't speak to me. 

Until the Big Three starts to re-think their strategy and actually listen to the voice of the consumer (the pains, wants needs, etc), they will not be able to compete effectively in today's market. 

So, my 2 cents is, I will not spend my dollars on vehicles from the Big Three. Haven't done so in a long, long time.


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## bluedogok (May 21, 2007)

It just depends on if you worry about it or not, for most of us on here it is probably a non-issue. If it something that concerns you, then maybe you should move to a domestic nameplate.

The "domestic" manufacturers have been closing plants for the last 20-30 years and moving production to other countries, from components to complete vehicles. I see trainloads of new truck frames and complete vehicles coming up from Mexico. What is "American" anymore isn't really tied to a nameplate. Others companies make theirs here and in fact have more "domestic content" than many of the vehicles on Chrysler, GM or Ford lots. The Toyota Tundra pickups are made in San Antonio, many Nissan's are made in Tennessee, and Honda in Ohio. In fact, when Honda first introduced the Accord Coupe it was only made in Ohio and they shipped from there to Japan for that market. Hyundai has a plant somewhere.

I have had mostly Ford's, and a couple of Mazda's before I bought my Z4 a few months ago, I traded in an F-150 Extended Cab when I got it. I find most of the American cars are better than what the perception is but for the most part what is an "American" vehicle really isn't. My wife's Ford Escape and my former F-150 were both assembled in the ClayCoMo plant (Kansas City) but while most of the components on the pickup were from American sources much of her Escape is Mazda sourced parts since it shares the platform with the Mazda Tribute and I think the Mazda 6. There may be more American sourced parts on the South Carolina built Z4 than there is on her Escape. In the 80's I had a couple of Ford products that had parts sourced from all over, the 2.3L 4-cyl engines came out of Brazil, the transmission in my 80 Mercury Capri was German. It doesn't matter to me where something is made, I was looking at Corvettes among many others before I bought the Z4, some domestic, some Japanese and some Euro. When it comes to bikes, I am Eurotrash, I ride a Triumph and the only ones that really interest me are a few models from Triumph, Ducati or Moto Guzzi. The only Japanese bike that I have any interest in is the Yamaha FJR, I have no interest in a Harley or Victory. They just make nothing that I am interested in.


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## sakura (May 17, 2009)

American car manufacturers hurt themselves... i love this country, however, why should i tollarate/bear the false burden of enabling them with their poor management skills. GM does make a dandy truck though.


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## Ctortora (Feb 3, 2008)

It should come as no surprise Toyota has passed GM in world-wide auto sales. The reason is simple. Consumers have suffered long enough.

GM's initial response to gas storages was the Chevy Vega. Although Motor Trend named the Vega their 1971 "Car of the Year," the car self destructed within 30,000 miles. The aluminum engine was a poor design. Consumers suffered. Next came GM's "Metric Transmission." Every one of these transmissions failed. Consumers suffered. The 80's saw GM's attempt to modify their V-8 into a diesel engine. The engine couldn't handle the high compression required in a diesel. The engine, used in the high priced Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs failed. Consumers suffer again. Cadillac tried to pass off a Chevy Cavalier as a Cadillac Cimarron, Consumers laughed. Cadillac then tried their 8-6-4 engine. It didn't work and consumers suffered. They developed the 4.1 Cadillac engine. It didn't work. Consumers suffered.

GM didn't learn form these failures. They said their problems were caused by high wages and poor worker performance. They blamed the Unions and the American worker. They don't get it!

GM continues to take their customers for fools. They design substandard equipment and refuse to made modifications. Over 50% of the heater blower motors failed on their 1998 to 2001 Chevrolets and Pontiacs. Most of the intake manifold gaskets fail on 3.1, 3.4 and 3.8 liter engines fail. What does GM do about the high failure rates? Nothing. They continued to uses the same defective parts, year-after-year. Consumers suffer.

GM has an ongoing problem with their engines. The engines have "Piston Slap," a condition caused by mismatching piston diameter to the engine block. The engines make a banging sound resulting in high oil consumption. Although "Piston Slap" is well known by GM engineers, GM refused to address the problem. They have published technical service bulletins stating the condition is normal. Consumers suffer. This time the consumers developed a web site to inform fellow consumers of the "Piston Slap" problem, www.pistonslap.com.

GM has taken their customers for granted for over 35 years. Customers who would like to buy "American," now turn to Toyota, Nissan, Honda and BMW. Toyota, Nissan and Honda consumers want a reliable, affordably priced car. BMW benefited from Cadillac's failures. Consumers now have the opinion GM can not make a quality automobile. GM's reputation is ruined. Toyota, Nissan, Honda and BMW are eating their lunch.


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## 02325xi (Apr 18, 2007)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> Yup.
> 
> Most of GM and Ford's best vehicles are built outside the US.
> 
> ...


More likely Chapter 7, but that's semantics. I'd also bet that BMW would be smart enough to get burned again.

What is worth noting, however, is the way the Chrysler bankruptcy process was politicized, steamrolling legal precedents, and using taxpayer funds to strip lenders' rights, solely to benefit the UAW (*The Treasury wrote off its entire initial $4bn taxpayer funded loan to Chrysler, recovering zero value, while letting the UAW take a majority of the new company's equity*). (The 9.85% ownership by the Treasury Department should be counted as consideration for providing the post-bankruptcy filing financing, which *nobody else would provide*)

The purchase of a Chrysler vehicle for idealogical reasons only makes sense if your goal is to support the UAW and Fiat (who paid nothing, that's right, $0, for a 20% stake in the new Chrysler), the new owners of the vast majority of Chrysler. GM's process has not yet been finalized, but I assume it will play out in a similar fashion. Ford, while not steered by the Treasury Department, has a put in place a structure with the UAW, where the UAW will also gain a very significant ownership stake in the company.

So, I think the original question needs to be rephrased-- As an American, do you think there is a responsibility to support the UAW (and in the case of Chrysler, Fiat)?


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## 02325xi (Apr 18, 2007)

Bethesda E39 said:


> I associate American cars with awful reliability, safety, design and build quality.
> 
> I credit Ford (somewhat) for their R&D, and large exposure (and decent cars) in other markets around the world, but as far as Chevy and Dodge go....good riddence.


Let's not give Ford too much operational credit. A large part of why Ford was able to squeeze by without government funding was because they mortgaged the company to the hilt when the credit markets were open, then used their cash pile (plus some stock) to repurchase their debt at a discount when the credit markets collapsed. Brilliant, to be sure, but this has *nothing* to do with the quality of their products, R&D, or workforce. Purely a financial exercise.


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## roadwarrior687 (Feb 22, 2006)

​


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## mark-X3 (May 26, 2008)

My X3 has a transmission built by GM (in France). Good enough, I guess.

For a pickup, I won't go other than GM or maybe Ford. Our Fords are pretty craptastic, but our Chevy Dually Crew Cab 4wd with a Duramax diesel and Allison auto can't be beat for pulling a 37' gooseneck trailer. Try buying that from a Japanese or German company... you can't (except for the Isuzu, err..... GM duramax diesel, with leaky Bosch fuel injectors) We have routinely put 200-300k miles on GM vans and suburbans. Might have to do a tranny around 250k, maybe not. Never touched an engine.

The mere thought of buying a car from a company run by the Gubmint Car Czar (Car Fuhrer?) and/or the UAW makes me gag bile. 

Fords are pretty fraking ugly right now too. And if Ford is too stupid to import their little Focus Turbo Diesel 6-Speed from Germany, they deserve a fail too. I drove one on the 'bahn at 220kph, and I got no where near the feeling of imminent death like when I drove a Tempo at 90mph in Texas in the mid 90s.

Plus, if you're so stupid you can't figure out how to turn Pontiac into some sort of performance boutique brand, you need to have your MBA or marketing degree revoked.

Oh and giving Chrysler to Fiat, yeah, right. If the German's can't fix it, I'm sure the Italians can. Remember how Chrysler got old Mercedes parts? Now they'll get old Fiat parts... you know what that is? A YUGO! Bwahahahahaha! :rofl:

Go down to middle Ohio around Marysville/Columbus and see how many jobs Honda and its suppliers provide. There's a pretty much American car company right there. Not just assembly, but R&D too. An aquaintance of mine designed the patented side door on the Honda Box-mobile (whatever that's called)

You can't just go by brand name anymore I guess....


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## jesimmons (Jan 11, 2008)

An interesting question/discussion to say the least.

I'll buy a Big 3 vehicle when they have something that I truly want to buy from them.

I think its ironic - They were producing and selling tons of vehicles in the last few years - exactly what Americans wanted to buy - Big, fuel inefficient SUVs and trucks. We were buying them as fast as the assembly lines could pump them out. Had I been interested in an SUV or truck, I would have considered one myself.

So the manufacturers were living long on the robust market for these vehicles... a market which simply dried up overnight when the gas prices hit $4 and financial markets collapsed. Without alternate products that were "production ready" to fill the void, and a financial infrastructure to support sales, they crashed and burned. 


I guess in the end, I am supporting the Big 3 (morally or otherwise) whether I buy a vehicle from them or not. The Government made sure of that as a result of the bailout.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

330ximd said:


> Economist? :rofl: Hilarious.


Kind of like the Hippocratic Oath and you calling yourself a physician. 

So, where is your post that's actually relevant to this thread? .......oh yeah, you haven't posted one. :tsk:


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## Shark01 (Jan 6, 2009)

I'll buy anything that meets my requirements......I bought a car in February after a year of looking. Here were my requirements:

1. 4 seat convertible (back seats for 3-14 yr old kids)
2. Real manual 6 speed transmission
3. 24 mpg on the highway
4. $40k or less, 2007 or newer

Not a SINGLE American or Japanese car met the requirements, here is what did:

1. BMW 335i (bought)
2. Audi S4
3. VW EOS
4. Saab 9-3
5. Volvo C-70

Thats it, when American companies want my business they will have to have a better car. They way I see it, the list of desireable American vehicles is quite short:

1. Viper
2. Corvette
3. CTS-V
4. Jeep Wrangler

Pathetic......


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

I would buy American, but only if their cars were more well-rounded. My saying has been "The best American cars are the ones that aren't", referring to GM or Ford vehicles engineered and built overseas. Pontiac G8? Great car. Saturn Astra? I'd buy one. And of course, those aren't really American at all.

Then again with global outsourcing and globalisation, its hard to define "American".


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## jhontou (May 29, 2009)

well vern reguardless of what you say i still think the top ceo's raped the company and if your idea of taking care of the companies is running it into the ground so they don't have any jobs that im curious what plannet you live on. they have to pay their employees a deicent wage to keep them working but they don't have to pay their guys holding the clipboards millions.


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## jhontou (May 29, 2009)

i do have to agree though that 28 per hour is alot for a floor sweeper. but parrt of those wages go to the unions and so on. how many people are really sweeping the floors seriously.


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## goodman (Mar 8, 2007)

No. If I needed a pick-up, I would buy a Ford F-150. If I were buying a car, I'd probably buy a Honda.


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## 330ximd (Sep 20, 2005)

tturedraider said:


> Kind of like the Hippocratic Oath and you calling yourself a physician.
> 
> So, where is your post that's actually relevant to this thread? .......oh yeah, you haven't posted one. :tsk:


Have the diploma/credentials to prove my end, but highly doubtful on your end. But c'est la vie, if you want to copy and paste economic information, it's your prerogative. :rofl:


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

jhontou said:


> i do have to agree though that 28 per hour is alot for a floor sweeper. but parrt of those wages go to the unions and so on. how many people are really sweeping the floors seriously.


Enough to use it as a wage comparision. I agree the clip board people were raping the companies but you still need them to run the companies but not at the price there were getting.I was a UAW member for quite a few years,and a good one at that, went to all the meetings ,drank the beer and would eat the sandwichs,but in the end I could see how IMO they hurt the automotive industry.
cheers
vern


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

02325xi said:


> More likely Chapter 7, but that's semantics. I'd also bet that BMW would be smart enough to get burned again.


No sane company is going pay good money for the American part of GM.



> What is worth noting, however, is the way the Chrysler bankruptcy process was politicized, steamrolling legal precedents, and using taxpayer funds to strip lenders' rights, solely to benefit the UAW


I'd add Fiat to that. But yeah. Bad solution to a very difficult problem. If Chrysler went into liquidation, a lot of union people (voters) would be out of work. So would thousands of workers at car dealers, parts suppliers and the little business that surround them. In the end this is likely just softening the crash a bit. Fiat could inject some needed engineering and patent help but I don't think Americans are ready to drive a Panda instead of a Wrangler.



> GM's process has not yet been finalized, but I assume it will play out in a similar fashion.


I'm watching from afar.

Magna and Sberbank are close to signing on a deal for GM europe. I'm not sure if the details are public but the German govt. has already dumped in a ***8364;1.5bn bridge loan. More is sure follow. This isn't a done deal. UK unions are shouting. Not sure who's listening.



> So, I think the original question needs to be rephrased-- As an American, do you think there is a responsibility to support the UAW (and in the case of Chrysler, Fiat)?


I think allowing GM to go into liquidation this year would have dire consequences for the US economy.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

330ximd said:


> Have the diploma/credentials to prove my end,........


We just have to take your word for that, just as you'll have to take my word for my degree and training.

Now, Dr. Who, I hope you can move on and find something more useful to do for Bimmerfest than continue with this fetish you seem to have for petty, little personal attacks. :dunno: Maybe you could post your opinion to the question posed in this thread. If you have one.


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## 330ximd (Sep 20, 2005)

tturedraider said:


> We just have to take your word for that, just as you'll have to take my word for my degree and training.
> 
> Now, Dr. Who, I hope you can move on and find something more useful to do for Bimmerfest than continue with this fetish you seem to have for petty, little personal attacks. :dunno: Maybe you could post your opinion to the question posed in this thread. If you have one.


:rofl: Actually there are enough people on this site I have helped in real life to vouch...unlike you, but that's a good one, Dr. Who :rofl:, great show. Well, Mr. Economics, you got me, I should interject on the buy American thread, so I guess I wills.

American cars are beginning to get better and better, now w/ the Volt coming down the tracks and the new Taurus, the quality is rising, and there will be reason to actually purchase American instead of forcing oneself. Kind of like forcing oneself to move out his parents' basement at mid-life, right pal? :rofl:


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## KingBeef (Apr 7, 2009)

This is something my father told me recently. The first brand new car my father bought was 1981 Carolla right after he graduated high school, he went 50,000 miles before it even occurred to him to change the oil (Dino at that). No problems whatsoever, and sold it in '89 with 220,000+ miles on it, try that in a Focus or a Cavalier and see what happens.

But with regard to the original question, no, I feel no obligation whatsoever. My allegiance to this country deals with protecting its borders, sovereignty, constitution, and it's people, not its corporations that for one reason or another are no longer viable. I'm a free market capitalist, I believe you have the right to succeed, but you also have the right to fail. Having said all that, I own an 06 F-150 FX4, had an 05 STX before that, and a 98 Explorer before that, that I was given after I graduated high school. Dare I mention the 94 Oldsmobile Achieva with the infamous Quad-4 engine (aka Blue Demon, as my brother and I were thoroughly convinced it was built in GM's Hades Plant) that I drove before that, it broke down weekly. The Fords (trucks) never had any mechanical problems, just quality issues as far as the materials used on the interior and exterior trim. Gas mileage sux, but its a truck. But anyway, I drive what I like, and right now it's BMW cars and Ford Trucks (with the Titan and Tundra close behind).


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## C-Bear (Jun 27, 2002)

vern said:


> Its realy a big joke. Quite a few years ago I worked for a company that made fastners for the auomotive industry and was a UAW shop and on all the bulletin boards they had posters that read "Buy American suport your country " . When I needed a new vehicle I bought a Ford 150. American made. What a joke, the gear box came from Mexico, most of the fastners came from China or Japan etc. and the truck was assembled in Canada. Like I said, what a big joke.
> cheers
> vern


This.

OP's question is decades late. A better understanding of commerce, international business and globalization in general is the best answer.


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## BIMMERUSAM5 (May 20, 2007)

*Nononononooooooooooo!*

Hell the fluck NO. I do own a F-150 and a Mustang but I would take my Bimmers over them any day


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## jhontou (May 29, 2009)

couldn't agree more vern ive just thought there is an excess of clipboard guys im most companies. most people would rather be holding the clipboard rather than doing the physical labor.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

bimmerusam3 said:


> Hell the fluck NO. I do own a F-150 and a Mustang but I would take my Bimmers over them any day


What about the GT 40 listed in sein auto?


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## invariant (Jun 19, 2007)

Just when I was going to say, "heck, no!" I recalled that I owned an American car. A true performance rig in its own category, a jeep wrangler. I would buy it again in a heartbeat if I needed a second vehicle. I would buy a Dodge or Ford truck too, if I needed a truck.
In fact, I bought my 335 because there was no diesel jeep (there is still no such thing in the US, despite its availability in Australia and Europe, isn't it ironic?), and I had no prospect of off-roading for a few years at least.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

invariant said:


> In fact, I bought my 335 because there was no diesel jeep


Wrangler currently sold in the UK has a 2.8L 4 cyl -- 175 bhp 302 lb/ft built by VM Motori. 0-62 with that motor is 11.2 seconds. I don't think this motor meets US emissions.

Fiat's biggest car diesel is a 2.4L inline 5 with a 207HP / 295ft-lb output.


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## Neutrino45 (Feb 5, 2008)

abelhands said:


> Based on all of the way things are going in the US, do you think American's are obligated morally to buy American cars?


Hell no!


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## tarf (Jun 5, 2009)

What makes a car company "American"? If they happen to be incorporated in Delaware, then why are they considered to be "American", regardless of where their employees or production facilities are located? See this list of GM's subsidiaries and where they are located. http://www.secinfo.com/d14D5a.s1c2n.v.htm Also, it is my understanding that over half of GM's employees are *not* located in the USA. http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/07/business/fi-gmworld7 So why do we keep calling GM an American company?

The fact is that virtually all auto companies must be international to survive. Their employees, suppliers, customers and shareholders are spread throughout the world. The auto industry is much different than it was 50 years ago and it will never go back. Which country a car company happens to be incorporated in isn't the real determining factor as to whether they are an "American" or "German" company. I drive an X3 made in Austria and my cousin who is an Italian citizen living in Italy drives an X5 that was made in South Carolina. So just buy the car that is best for you and don't worry about which country the company happens to be incorporated in.


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## invariant (Jun 19, 2007)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> Wrangler currently sold in the UK has a 2.8L 4 cyl -- 175 bhp 302 lb/ft built by VM Motori. 0-62 with that motor is 11.2 seconds.
> I don't think this motor meets US emissions.


I think 0-60 numbers are not really meaningful at all when talking about 4x4 utility vehicles. It's a totally different segment of automobile market. Low end torque is considered important.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

invariant said:


> I think 0-60 numbers are not really meaningful at all when talking about 4x4 utility vehicles. It's a totally different segment of automobile market. Low end torque is considered important.


For people that actually use them off road -- yes. Its important for towing too.

Fiat's 'big' diesel has enough torque and more than enough HP.

Many Americans do look at the 0-60 times. For those shoppers, anything over 10 seconds would be considered 'too slow'. Personally I disagree. 11 or 12 is more than fast enough for a Wrangler.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

I think power delivery is more important than acceleration. It's not like we have many on-ramps with "stop sign" and no acceleration lane. A lot of American cars have automatic transmissions that are hopeless at kicking down........drop the hammer and the gearbox takes 3 ice ages before taking the lowest cog.

Actually, the bigger problem is that Americans cannot merge. They don't know how to use the full length of the merge lane and full throttle (if necessary). Instead, they stop at the beginning of the lane and then accelerate moderately, hoping that the BMW X3 barreling down at 130km/h will stop for him/her. Oh wait, that's me.


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## searich07 (Jun 18, 2008)

We are in a global economy which is extremely competitive. We americans purchase goods and services based on our utility curve. Some people purchase KIAs, others Mini's, BMWs, or so on. I like performance, but not too much performance where MPG is a factor. 20-30 mpg is reasonable, but 10-15 mpg is a bit too much for me. Then there is maintenance, some cars last 5 years, others 10, some 15 years, nly a very few last 50, 60, or 70 years.

SO we tend to purchase cars from other nations whild GM, Ford, and Chrysler flounder in red ink wondering if they will survive this economic down turn. Remember American Motors, or Plymouth, or Packard, or any number of American cars that have disappeared from our landscape, only to reappear as rebuilds in Phoenix at expensive car auctions.

For me a BMW E46 330i was a ultimate driving machine when I originally purchased it in March 2003, and it still is for me now. I have looked at newer BMWs, but my 330i is still everything it was when purchased new.

Cars get down to enjoyment, practicality, and rational of each individual. That is what a market is – customer fullfillment and their expectations


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## pmgreer (Jun 28, 2009)

No.


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## 1986pacecar (Jun 22, 2009)

I do feel some guilt whenever I buy a "foreign" car but over the years I've bought a bunch of new American cars. Out of the 4 cars we own, only my BMW isn't American made. I just traded in an 08 Chevy Malibu for my 06 325xi and have zero regrets. Quite simply the BMW is the best car I've ever owned, and one of my other cars is a 99 Corvette.


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## DonnaBlackson (May 14, 2006)

Why, so 60% or more of the cost of the car can go to retired GM workers to pay full benefits while they do nothing to earn it ?? no thanks!! besides, American cars are not reliable and they are not attractive, except maybe the Mustang, but thats about it.....the rest all have the " American car" look......I'd rather take the bus, haha!!


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## SergioCordoza (Mar 27, 2009)

i think we are obligated to buy american only....lol


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

No. It's a global economy.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

AzNMpower32 said:


> I think power delivery is more important than acceleration. It's not like we have many on-ramps with "stop sign" and no acceleration lane.


Penmaenmawr, North Wales, UK. Bangor Road onto the A55

By chance I had the camera set up in the van. 0-70 as fast as I can get the van to go. 1,25l diesel. 1-2 shift was a little late. I could shave second or two off the time. 9:48PM no traffic.


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## chefron (Jun 28, 2009)

Mushy brakes, sloppy trans and uninspired performance in a vehicle which will most likely break down at least 2 times a year (my last Pontiac) and WILL be dead in 3 years? Where do I sign up!
It's called Natural Selection. The weak will be eaten (or govt. subsidized).


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## BMWenthusiast (Feb 27, 2005)

Well, if you consider BMW has a factory in Spartanburg, SC then purchasing BMW helps America to a respect. 

American cars to me have a long way to go to match German quality. At my job our Ford Focus's engine's are dieing at 100k miles. We had near 11 and are now down to 8. The three that died all died at 100k miles from their Engine's dieing. Our other vehicles are getting close to that mileage and are having issues, so we will see if they continue to die. I know that USC, which used to have exclusively only Ford's, different ones from each department, are now buying other brands and foreign cars due to the issues and downtime we have been having with Fords.


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## Chrisdridley (Jun 29, 2009)

This is an issue that I have struggled with.....until last year I had never owned a foreign brand car....not even one made in Ohio, Alabama or South Carolina. 
I work in the construction field as a project manager and over the last 30 years, all my cars and trucks have had an American badge.
I drive 65,000+ miles a year and until last week, my daily driver was a '07 Hemi Charger. In 23 months, I put 131,114 miles on the clock and enjoyed driving the car...an American name, built in Canada by CAW workers....now the Charger is tired, uses about a quart of oil in 5000 miles and needed to be replaced. Last week it was replaced with a '09 335d.
Until last year, I didn't know what I was missing. I purchased a new Porsche and now, I also have a new BMW. These cars quality, fit and finish are better than anything American I have found. The Charger or the G8 don't come close...the Vette can't hold a candle to the build quality of the German nameplates.....There is no American car I can purchace and get the value I get in the German builts.
As far as keeping Americans working goes, let me share a recent experence I had. 
My jobs are non-union for the most part. I can't pay union scale and be competitive, so on one of my jobs, I had a visit from the union...put union trades on the job or we'll picket your jobsite....you need to support the American worker or we'll bring out an inflatable rat and do what ever else we can to encourge you to use union labor. The shop steward was driving a Honda pick-up....I didn't give that much thought till the union workers I did hire, showed up driving IVECO trucks. Not a lot of support for the UAW there I thought.
When American car makers can deliver the value that BMW can, I'll take a look...till then, I'll be speaking German.


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