# 98 M3 or 2001 330i?



## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

The Roadstergal said:


> I know of a couple of people who take good care of their E36 M3s and had head gaskets spontaneously go at relatively low miles. Is that an issue with E36 M3s?
> 
> I guess it's what you're used to; I tried out a friend's this weekend, and found it very comfortable, dignified (for lack of a better word) and well-behaved.


 Come on Rgal, the question compared the E36 M3 to the E46 330i. "_____er" are relative terms. And they certainly apply when comparing the E36 M3 to the E46 330i.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

·clyde· said:


> LATCH started with MY2002 E46s.


 I had latch anchors in my 6/00 production MY01 330i.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

rumratt said:


> Ahhhhhhh. You're hitting me where it hurts with that list. You're making me want an E36 M3.
> 
> Oh, and you forgot to mention the LSD.
> 
> I'm worried I'd miss the refinement though.


 You've read it all before. Of course these complaints were why I ditched my 330i when I did.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TD said:


> I had latch anchors in my 6/00 production MY01 330i.


 jw doesn't have them in his 2001 330. :dunno:

LATCH: Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren.

Are you talking about the upper anchors on the rear shelf or the anchors near where the bottom cushions and backrest come together?


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

I might as well throw my pennies into the pot. I would take the E36 M3 if driving pleasure is your primary concern, and things like long trip comfort, LATCH for baby seats, and quietness and smoothness are secondary/tertiary. The 330i is plenty fun to drive but the '98 M3 will be much *more* fun to drive.

Let's face the facts, though. If you are concerned with easy and secure baby seat installs, being able to speak at normal volumes over even rough roads, and being as comfortable as possible, the M3 isn't going to win you any points over the long haul. It's all doable, but perhaps not as elegantly or nicely as in the newer E46. Some might suggest that you just take both  but actually, I don't believe that either car is so bad at any one thing that it requires ownership of the other to compensate.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> Let's face the facts, though. If you are concerned with easy and secure baby seat installs,


The original poster never asked about child seats. That part of the thread is "added value."


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

·clyde· said:


> jw doesn't have them in his 2001 330. :dunno:
> 
> LATCH: Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren.
> 
> Are you talking about the upper anchors on the rear shelf or the anchors near where the bottom cushions and backrest come together?


 I know what LATCH is, thankyouverymuch.

The little bars (covered by little plastic covers) at the bottom of the seatbacks in the rear seat. The covers from mine kept coming off and sliding around the rear seat area.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TD said:


> I know what LATCH is, thankyouverymuch.
> 
> The little bars (covered by little plastic covers) at the bottom of the seatbacks in the rear seat. The covers from mine kept coming off and sliding around the rear seat area.


 Weird :dunno:

But if you recall the covers coming off and sliding around, you definitely had them. (The worst display of engineering in the E46 IMO are those covers with the cheap ass springs.)


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

·clyde· said:


> Weird :dunno:
> 
> But if you recall the covers coming off and sliding around, you definitely had them. (The worst display of engineering in the E46 IMO are those covers with the cheap ass springs.)


 I know you don't like links as support, but- http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46/69457-1.html

It appears they started with model year *'00*.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TD said:


> I know you don't like links as support, but- http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46/69457-1.html
> 
> It appears they started with model year *'00*.


 Supporting links are great when they actually support the cause. 

I honestly don't know and, as always, I am more than happy to stand corrected.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2004)

·clyde· said:


> Supporting links are great when they actually support the cause.
> 
> I honestly don't know and, as always, I am more than happy to stand corrected.


 It does make one suspect that jw does have them but just, um, er, can't find them.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> It does make one suspect that jw does have them but just, um, er, can't find them.


WMD's?


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

rumratt said:


> Ahhhhhhh. You're hitting me where it hurts with that list. You're making me want an E36 M3.
> 
> Oh, and you forgot to mention the LSD.
> 
> I'm worried I'd miss the refinement though.


I was listing the things that I didn't like on the 330, not the bonus features on the e36. :rofl:

Having said all of that, I think the 330 was a wonderful car (I realize that last post didn't come off that way). It just wasn't what I wanted out of a car. There was even a time when I wondered if switching back wouldn't be a good idea (although one quick test drive cured me of that feeling instantly).


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

atyclb said:


> WMD's?


 WMDs: The Nazis/Hitlers of the 21st-century web forum.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

:flipoff:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

atyclb said:


> WMD's?


 Well, it's good to see that Mr. Kay has landed his next job.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> Well, it's good to see that Mr. Kay has landed his next job.


I have discovered evidence of LATCH supporting link related program activities in jw's back seat. Further investigation is called for.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

TD said:


> Come on Rgal, the question compared the E36 M3 to the E46 330i. "_____er" are relative terms. And they certainly apply when comparing the E36 M3 to the E46 330i.


I've actually never driven an E46.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2004)

___lk___ said:


> i would get a ZHP over any 98...even though the 98 is a great car for what it is, the e46 has substantially better crash-worthiness, which would easily slant it for me if kid(s) were ever going to be riding in it.
> 
> imo, that alone seals the fate of a 98...although there are other reasons. a ZHP is a better car in almost every way.


 The comparison was between the E36 M3 and a *2001* E46 330i. As the E36 M3 and a typical 2001 330i both go for low $20Ks, I assume cost IS a factor. A $40K+ ZHP is not in play.


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## hts (Dec 19, 2001)

JHC, I sure hope my '01 330i is worth more than 'low 20's'...





TD said:


> a typical 2001 330i both go for low $20Ks...


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2004)

hts said:


> JHC, I sure hope my '01 330i is worth more than 'low 20's'...


 NADA says $24K.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

___lk___ said:


> i would get a ZHP over any 98...even though the 98 is a great car for what it is, the e46 has substantially better crash-worthiness, which would easily slant it for me if kid(s) were ever going to be riding in it.
> 
> imo, that alone seals the fate of a 98...although there are other reasons. a ZHP is a better car in almost every way.


Where do you people come up with these ridiculous statements that don't even allow for the possibility that not everyone thinks like you? True, the ZHP is a better car in some ways - like refinement, luxury, smooth ride, and so on. It's also got the same "problems" that every other e46 does that some of us don't like, such as softer steering, more detached ride, dbw throttle, the e46 clutch, and so on. Oh yeah - and body roll.

As for safety, that's a personal choice. Some people want the "safest" stuff they can get their hands on. Personally, I don't consider the e36 BMWs death traps. I would be interested to see how they stack up against current non-bmws.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I've driven an '01 330i, and didn't like it - but recently drove an '03 325i, and the steering is a lot better, in fact I'd say it's a toss up with my E36 - less feel, but just as accurate. Definitely can't feel what the rear tires are doing on an E46 though - you notice the car is rotating when the view out your window starts to rotate! But it's also less scary when you are going sideways, the E46 seems easier to catch than my car. Throttle did kind of suck on the '03 though, compared to my E36.

Have you driven a ZHP?



rwg said:


> It seems to be a black and white decision. I am much happier with the e36 m than I was with the 2001 330i. I didn't like the body roll, I didn't like the clutch, I didn't like the steering, I didn't like the throtle delay . . .
> 
> But the refinement of the e46 is definately several notches up.
> 
> ...


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> I've driven an '01 330i, and didn't like it - but recently drove an '03 325i, and the steering is a lot better, in fact I'd say it's a toss up with my E36 - less feel, but just as accurate. Definitely can't feel what the rear tires are doing on an E46 though - you notice the car is rotating when the view out your window starts to rotate! But it's also less scary when you are going sideways, the E46 seems easier to catch than my car. Throttle did kind of suck on the '03 though, compared to my E36.
> 
> Have you driven a ZHP?


There was a time not to long ago when I noticed that the M is worth more than I owe on it. I had been car shopping with my dad and started to get caught up in the hype and idea of a new car. I test drove a ZHP. It was the best test drive ever - saved me something like $40k and reminded me how much I love my car.

Yes, compared to the 2001 I traded for the M, the zhp steering is improved, the engine is like butta, the body roll is reduced, the exhaust note is improved. It's a wonderful car. But the steering and turn in still isn't as good as the m, the clutch is still the e46 clutch, the body roll is still more than I like (although that's relatively easy to fix), the throttle still seems to think about what you are asking of it and then deciding whether to grant your wish, etc. Oh yeah - it doesn't have an LSD. That has become the most important difference to me for some reason.

Compared to the e46, TD's description of the e36 is pretty accurate. It's a brute. It's comparatively rough, it's noisy and it's not anywhere near the luxury standard of the e46. For me, it's also a lot more fun to drive.


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## ___lk___ (Dec 21, 2001)

rwg said:


> Where do you people come up with these ridiculous statements that don't even allow for the possibility that not everyone thinks like you?


hey genius, when i use phrases like "i would get", "for me", and "imo" who the fock do you think i'm speaking for?

and btw, thanks for going on and confirming everything i said about the e46...


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

It sounds like the 330i is the car for you.

That said...

The M3 is a breed apart - it always wants to be driven fast - and it rewards the owner with one hellava driving experience.

The 330i is a bit softer, and more refined. It works well on the track, but is much less communicative and at ease compared to the M3.

I love the E36 M3 - had I not gone Porsche, I'd be driving one now. 

This is the first time I have ever admitted this... but I miss my E36 328i more than I miss my E46 330i. There is something very driver-oriented about the E36 chassis that is missing in the E46.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

___lk___ said:


> . a ZHP is a better car in almost every way.


Well, genius no. 2, please show me where any of the phrases like "i would get", "for me", and "imo" show up in the above quoted sentence.

I didn't mean for that previous post to come off as a personal attack. I meant it to be a generic attack against the "my way is the only way" mind set. I seem to have trouble with this written communication thing. Sorry.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

That's what worries me about trading up from my E36 325i. I'm afraid I'd miss it. It's hardly worth anything, maybe $8k, but with the X-brace, H&R/Koni setup, M3 bushings - it's pretty neutral and so communicative that a ZHP might feel really distant, and I'd kill myself if I missed my $8k car after spending close to $40k on a new one!

I too don't care about the noise, the jiggles, the harsh ride - so the refinement aspect of the E46 doesn't attract me. Not having to maintain it appeals to me.



Emission said:


> This is the first time I have ever admitted this... but I miss my E36 328i more than I miss my E46 330i. There is something very driver-oriented about the E36 chassis that is missing in the E46.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Dawg90 said:


> That's what worries me about trading up from my E36 325i. I'm afraid I'd miss it. It's hardly worth anything, maybe $8k, but with the X-brace, H&R/Koni setup, M3 bushings - it's pretty neutral and so communicative that a ZHP might feel really distant, and I'd kill myself if I missed my $8k car after spending close to $40k on a new one!
> 
> I too don't care about the noise, the jiggles, the harsh ride - so the refinement aspect of the E46 doesn't attract me. Not having to maintain it appeals to me.


 I miss 4 of the 5 5.0 Mustangs I had. I miss the 280Z I had. I miss the 1969 and 1987 Corvettes I had. I miss the 1970 Cutlass Convertible I had. I miss the 1976 Delta 88 I had. I miss the 1991 Q45 I had. I miss the 1992 Civic Si I had. They all had something special to them that made them worth having.

From the sound of it, regardless of when you move on from your E36, you are probably going to miss your E36.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> From the sound of it, regardless of when you move on from your E36, you are probably going to miss your E36.


Yeah, but I've had a ton of cars. I don't miss any of them as much as my E36.

Put it this way, I'd never buy any of my former cars again - except the E36.


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## ARCHER (Dec 26, 2001)

As TD said, I currently own both cars in question and can only echo the sentiments of the pro-E36 M3 crowd. My wife's 330i is a manual with the Sport Package, has the retrofitted steering rack, Racing Dynamics sway bars and is wearing S-03s. It is fast and capable car, no doubt.

My M3 is bone stock other than the UUC clutch stop and it "feels" like ten times the car the 330 is. It is extremely direct, communicative and torque is very pronounced. It is an absolute joy to drive and if you do test drive the two back-to-back, the difference is night-and-day. It becomes glaringly apparent that they were purpose-built for very different purposes.

I don't dislike the 330. In fact, I used to really enjoy until I bought my M3 back in May. But since then, I have driven the 330 on maybe five or six occasions - and that was only because I had to. I haul our twins in the M fairly often and without regret. The twin stroller fits nicely into the trunk as well.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

Well put, Archer. It seems like we have all said the 330 is a great car, it's just different. I would go even one step farther. I suspect that the 330 with either the sport package or the zhp package would get better lap times with a competent driver than the e36 m would with the same driver.

But it doesn't matter. For those of us who like the e36 chasis characteristics, it's just more fun to drive.


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## ARCHER (Dec 26, 2001)

rwg said:


> I suspect that the 330 with either the sport package or the zhp package would get better lap times with a competent driver than the e36 m would with the same driver.


I would have to disagree, with respect to the 330 at least. It gives up both HP and weight to the M3. I can definitely take the twisties faster, and with more confidence when in my car. As for the ZHP, dunno, I haven't driven one.


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

ARCHER said:


> I would have to disagree, with respect to the 330 at least. It gives up both HP and weight to the M3. I can definitely take the twisties faster, and with more confidence when in my car. As for the ZHP, dunno, I haven't driven one.


I don't have any idea what your skill level is, so I can't get a handle on your impressions. I personally am not the competent driver that I was thinking of either. I do know that I have seen e46s put out amazing performance around a track and have seen them out run e36 m3s over and over again. That observation doesn't mean anything unless the skill of the driver is the same, of course and I have seen great drivers in e36s outrun Corvettes with seeming ease.

I think the e46 feels like it is going to come loose earlier (maybe b/c of the body roll), but it doesn't. The power is close, the weight is almost close and the body rigidity is higher. :dunno:

I could also be completely wrong about this, of course. Wouildn't be the first time.


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## jk330i (Aug 13, 2002)

I drove both cars, and in comparison to acceleration I'd say it's a tie. The 330i, however, feels like a boat compared to the nimble e36 m3. You get a harsher ride in the m3, but you'll feel more comfortable and refined in the 330. Your choice.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

If I could buy a brand new E36 M3 sedan for the price of a 330, that would be a no brainer. But now to buy a 5 year old car for $20k, and have to maintain it and feel it grow old, makes me hesitate. Buying a 330 ZHP means I'll have free maintenance, get a nice BMW loaner when I take it in (it's an hour drive to my BMW mechanic), and of course I'll get a unique Euro Delivery experience. It makes the decision tough!


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

rwg said:


> "I suspect that the 330 with either the sport package or the zhp package would get better lap times with a competent driver than the e36 m would with the same driver."


I'd argue the E36 M3 would be faster on the track than even the E46 330i ZHP.

The M3 has lower gear ratios, and more torque across the power band. The handling would be about even, but the E36 could be "wrung out" a bit more than the E46.

Amazing, considering the E36 M3 is now 9-years-old!


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## Tanin (Dec 21, 2001)

I love the E36 M3 and I seriously considered one when my lease was up on my '01 330i. 

Unfortunately, all of the reason I loved the E36 M3 (less isolation, more communicative, more on edge) were also the reason I decided on another E46. For my needs the refinement of the E46 made more sense for my day-to-day needs. 

However, I wouldn't be surprised if an E36 M3 ends up as a 3rd vehicle at some point in the future.


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## Hank (Jun 29, 2003)

Well, you boys have got me worried with your remarks about E46 problems, etc. I was finally able last June to buy my first BMW, a 2001 (Feb guild date, FWIW) 330i steel grey, sport package, 5-speed, tight, well cared-for beauty that I named Lucille. Bought her at the Infinity dealer, where some very misquided soul had mistakenly traded her in for a G35. 28,000 miles on her. Best car I've ever driven. It is ENGINEERED. And yes, I know performance. For sheer testosterone experience, the M3's don't quite peg the thrill-ometer like my 1972 Z28 Camaro did. I ordered it after I got out of the Army, without A/C. Yes, it was me, the 350-hp/350 cu. in. motor, headers and the open road. In '95 I bought a new Z28. That ultra heavy duty 6-speed manual transmission is the best tranny I have ever experienced!
So, am I impressed by the E46 performance? Well, yes, I am because its performance, balanced against it's tight, precision engineering, its solidity, and yes, a bit of luxury, makes it the "ultimate" all-around driving machine. If I were into weekend racing, I'd buy an M. But, for a balanced vehicle, the 330i is it. There's a reason the BMW 3-series has been in the C&D top ten best cars in the world list for 13 years!
Stop agonizing the decision and go for it. You know, if you are unhappy with your decision, you can always find a buyer for a bimmer.


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## Patrick330i (Sep 30, 2002)

Hank said:


> Stop agonizing the decision and go for it. You know, if you are unhappy with your decision, you can always find a buyer for a bimmer.


Hey, this is the most blissful agony the man may ever experience. I think I may be jealous. :thumbup:

So what's the decision, dude?


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

Hank said:


> For sheer testosterone experience, the M3's don't quite peg the thrill-ometer like my 1972 Z28 Camaro did. I ordered it after I got out of the Army, without A/C. Yes, it was me, the 350-hp/350 cu. in. motor, headers and the open road.


That's b/c you were terrified that you might have to either: 1) stop or 2) turn!! :rofl:

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I just couldn't help it. And yes, I understand your real point.


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## Josh (PA) (Jan 21, 2002)

I too echo Archer's comments. I have a '99 E36 M3c while my wife has an '01 325i w/ Manual and Sport. I recently drove my wife's car on a 600 mile weekend round trip and at the end found myself thinking "What a pleasant enjoyable, well rounded car." It does everything well and is an excellent car compared to it's competition. But doesn't do anything superbly.

A year and a half after buying the M3, I still arrive home from my work commute with a big stupid smile on my face. I will take the car out any chance I get just to drive it and experience it. I find myself more times then not getting out tapping the roof and thanking it for a great time. Remember too, this is a convertible in the middle of winter, when I'm dealing with all of the convertible drawbacks without the fun of the top down. The m3 might not be the fastest, most luxurious or most comfortable car around anymore, but I'd be willing to bet it is still one of the most rewarding, communicative and fun cars you can find. It does not need to be pushed to the limit for these virtues to show either. Any simple 3rd gear pass on the highway, long sweeping exit ramp, or curvy back road can be extremely rewarding at 6/10th of the cars ability.

Even with the 325 in the garage we use the M3 for almost all of our errands, grocery shopping, hauling crap around, etc, because it makes all of those daily chures more enjoyable. If I had my choice I'd trade my wife's car for a 98 m3 4 door in a second.



ARCHER said:


> As TD said, I currently own both cars in question and can only echo the sentiments of the pro-E36 M3 crowd. My wife's 330i is a manual with the Sport Package, has the retrofitted steering rack, Racing Dynamics sway bars and is wearing S-03s. It is fast and capable car, no doubt.
> 
> My M3 is bone stock other than the UUC clutch stop and it "feels" like ten times the car the 330 is. It is extremely direct, communicative and torque is very pronounced. It is an absolute joy to drive and if you do test drive the two back-to-back, the difference is night-and-day. It becomes glaringly apparent that they were purpose-built for very different purposes.
> 
> I don't dislike the 330. In fact, I used to really enjoy until I bought my M3 back in May. But since then, I have driven the 330 on maybe five or six occasions - and that was only because I had to. I haul our twins in the M fairly often and without regret. The twin stroller fits nicely into the trunk as well.


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