# Is ED dead?



## calvol (May 15, 2003)

I did ED back in 2001 for a 330i, picked up in Munich on a business trip, and dropped off in Frankfurt... saved about 8% as I remember.

Now I'm semi-retired, and wonder if the financial incentive is basically gone?


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## 808dakine (Jul 21, 2016)

I just did an ED in September. While the savings has dropped to 5%, still was better than buying in my home state. If the purchase is tied to a European driving tour, it's a big bonus cost wise IMO. Even more so, if you are semi-retired and have time to enjoy the ride. There are other ED car makers, but the Welt delivery experience is without compare. Having done one in 2001, it's certainly time to go again, wouldn't you say.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

The discount was reduced from 8 to 5%. Remember, it's a shift of Invoice and MSRP - so you still have to negotiate the new invoice/msrp


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

5% of the base.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Current ED MSRP discount from US delivery MSRP is 5%, from past years ~7%. Current ED Invoice price is also reduced to ~5% from ED MSRP from past years ~7%.

You can still get a minimum of 7% discount in an ED car (not part of dealer allocation) without too much effort or simply ED invoice (~10% discount) + $XXXX depending on your dealer.



calvol said:


> I did ED back in 2001 for a 330i, picked up in Munich on a business trip, and dropped off in Frankfurt... saved about 8% as I remember.
> 
> Now I'm semi-retired, and wonder if the financial incentive is basically gone?


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Yes, ED is dead. I've run numbers on several different types of cars lately. If you are comparing ED invoice + xxx to US invoice + xxx, ED ends up more expensive. 

The ED doc fee, MF adder, reduction in discount, and less spread between invoice and MSRP in 2017 has killed ED for good. The exception might be a hot car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation for ED. Very sad that ED is done, but I guess the Welt is too busy. We need another good global recession.


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## BimmerBahn (Nov 24, 2005)

Depends on if you're only looking at ED for the pure $$ savings factor. If so, then yes, it's not as good as before. You're probably better off looking for a deal on the lot. Doing ED purely for the savings isn't the point IMHO. It's pretty great to be able to drive your own car through Europe and have it show up at your local dealer a couple months after dropoff. If you don't want to drive it around, the few $$ savings is great if you're already going to Europe (Germany). Probably doesn't make sense to make the trek if you're going to have a lot of out of pocket expense.

Compare to BMW Euro customers picking up at the Welt, or Canadian's.... they either pay a premium or no discount for the same privilege. Audi, you're on the hook for VAT until the vehicle is on the boat. Porsche may not be an additional charge anymore... Merc is a flat 5%...maybe 10%..don't remember. All things considered, I think it's still a good program.

Cheers,


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

skilletbgm said:


> Merc is a flat 5%...maybe 10%..don't remember. All things considered, I think it's still a good program.


Mercedes is still 7% for all eligible vehicles; however I believe the C-Class Sedan got taken away with the introduction of the current model,
...but they still allow the E & the S.

Plus they waive the destination charge, & there's no additional doc fee. On a $50K car, that's not a small difference.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> Yes, ED is dead. I've run numbers on several different types of cars lately. If you are comparing ED invoice + xxx to US invoice + xxx, ED ends up more expensive.
> 
> The ED doc fee, MF adder, reduction in discount, and less spread between invoice and MSRP in 2017 has killed ED for good. The exception might be a hot car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation for ED. Very sad that ED is done, but I guess the Welt is too busy. We need another good global recession.


You exaggerate. Speak for yourself.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

the J-Man said:


> Yes, ED is dead. I've run numbers on several different types of cars lately. If you are comparing ED invoice + xxx to US invoice + xxx, ED ends up more expensive.
> 
> The ED doc fee, MF adder, reduction in discount, and less spread between invoice and MSRP in 2017 has killed ED for good. The exception might be a hot car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation for ED. Very sad that ED is done, but I guess the Welt is too busy. We need another good global recession.


Bull****. I've been talking to two PNW dealers who will do ~ 11% off US MSRP for a '17 4 series on ED. If I wait for the inevitable BMW Holiday push it will be closer to 14-15 % off US MSRP. I have no idea what you are talking about with "ED Doc Fees", but with 16 BMW ED's I've never paid one.

BUT, I'm not sure our winter ED won't be a MB.


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

the J-Man said:


> Yes, ED is dead. I've run numbers on several different types of cars lately. If you are comparing ED invoice + xxx to US invoice + xxx, ED ends up more expensive.
> 
> The ED doc fee, MF adder, reduction in discount, and less spread between invoice and MSRP in 2017 has killed ED for good. The exception might be a hot car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation for ED. Very sad that ED is done, but I guess the Welt is too busy. We need another good global recession.


I share your disappointment, but you are making misstatements. There is no such thing as ED doc fees. MF adder is there to offset the skipped payment so that is a wash. The reduction in the spread between invoice and MSRP has occurred on all BMW sales not just ED. ED is not dead. It effectively has been reduced from 11% off of US MSRP to approximately 9%, if you can negotiate effectively.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

Agreed. Essentially ED is now 9% off (based on your negotiation). There is no ED Doc fee, unless you got scammed by your sales person, or BMW just changed a policy. There are regular doc fees, but you would get hit with that on a US delivery vehicle - so that doesn't matter.


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## avidude (Oct 20, 2007)

I don't believe ED is dead. I just completed one myself and saved a chunk of money. I'd do it again. Although the benefit was reduced last year, it can still be a good deal.


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## Asteroid (Aug 17, 2005)

I think there'll be a transition period for this shifting of numbers from front end to back end. What I mean is that instead of dealers seeing the sales profit up front before, it appears they now get some money on the back end after sales. 
Eventually some dealers may go for volume whereas some may go for the after sales money. After this shakeout I believe people will be able to get equivalent Bimmerfest style ED deals again. Even now people are reporting 9-11% off on non-M cars.


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

pharding said:


> There is no such thing as ED doc fees. The reduction in the spread between invoice and MSRP has occurred on all BMW sales not just ED.


That's correct...and the reduction in spread was originally mistaken for some type of added fee. 
But its just another brick in the wall that Mercedes does not have in their program. 
Would I buy an MB instead....? Hell, no....:tsk:

But bottom line is that MB altered NONE of these aforementioned costs to the customer...so what BMW did still sucks big-time;;
especially for someone who doesn't lease. We don't all trade up every 2 or 3 years.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Are you guys suggesting that the $475 ED fee referenced here is not real?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=916797

Just because it's not itemized as a fee doesn't mean it's not an additional fee. Ed invoice used to be .92x.93, now it is .92x.95+$475 from what I understand? 

Further, I would challenge somebody to show me how ED still saves money by posting actual deal numbers. Like I said, for the more in demand cars, ED can still make sense, but I'd say 7 out of 10 deals can be had for cheaper doing US delivery.

ED is a great experience, but I'm not willing to pay more for it. Sad to see it go.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

pharding said:


> MF adder is there to offset the skipped payment so that is a wash.


I think you know that the MF adder is not a wash. It can easily amount to double the free payment. Mercedes handles this issue so much better by not collecting lease payments while the car is in transit. I've always wished BMW would do that. The MF adder has always been the most annoying aspect of BMW's program.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Also, you guys have to consider all the other BMW incentives these days that can't be combined with ED. USAA, corporate discount, etc. Throw these into the equation too when comparing ED to US delivery.


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

the J-Man said:


> Are you guys suggesting that the $475 ED fee referenced here is not real?
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=916797
> 
> Just because it's not itemized as a fee doesn't mean it's not an additional fee. Ed invoice used to be .92x.93, now it is .92x.95+$475 from what I understand?


Yes, but it was argued further down in that thread that since the increase wasn't specific to E.D. that it wasn't something done specifically 
to dissuade use of that program. Retail U.S. deliveries were similarly affected.



the J-Man said:


> Also, you guys have to consider all the other BMW incentives these days that can't be combined with ED. USAA, corporate discount, etc.


Not if your dealer really likes you. Unfortunately, mine didn't...... all 3 times. :yikes:


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## PWsuba (Sep 8, 2016)

I sincerely hope its not 'dead'. I have been dreaming of doing ED for almost 10 years now. I still have another 2-5 years before I will be in a position to, comfortably, be able to do so. While the savings is great, for my dreams its just a bonus. I will ED even if the cost is the same, I would be upset at the lost benefit of the reduced price, but its not a deal breaker. So with that until BMW stops offering ED, i.e. if they build the 3er in Mexico or as in most of the X line, I don't it will die.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Both my 997 C2S and 997 TT had a +$2,500 surcharge over US pricing for ED. VW/Porsche has since seen the error of their ways and no longer applies a surcharge for ED - but no discount. My friends at PCNA tell me ED is becoming much more popular over the last few years, even w/o a discount.

Stop whining.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

RichReg said:


> Yes, but it was argued further down in that thread that since the increase wasn't specific to E.D. that it wasn't something done specifically
> to dissuade use of that program


 But US deliveries have always been subject to MACO and training fees when ED was exempt. Now the "fee" seems to apply to ED too, which narrows the gap. :dunno:


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

dkreidel said:


> Both my 997 C2S and 997 TT had a +$2,500 surcharge over US pricing for ED. VW/Porsche has since seen the error of their ways and no longer applies a surcharge for ED - but no discount. My friends at PCNA tell me ED is becoming much more popular over the last few years, even w/o a discount.
> 
> Stop whining.


 The biggest rub for me with BMW's current program is the delay getting the car back. I suppose I would be "ok" with no discount if they didn't have an ED adder, and didn't collect lease payments while the car was in transit, a la MB's approach. West coast delivery times can be brutal. It's really annoying making three payments AND effectively paying a fourth via the ED adder when you don't even have the car to drive yet.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

calvol said:


> I did ED back in 2001 for a 330i, picked up in Munich on a business trip, and dropped off in Frankfurt... saved about 8% as I remember.
> 
> Now I'm semi-retired, and wonder if the financial incentive is basically gone?


I truly don't think 5% pays for people vacation unless they are using all airline miles and hotel points.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> The biggest rub for me with BMW's current program is the delay getting the car back. I suppose I would be "ok" with no discount if they didn't have an ED adder, and didn't collect lease payments while the car was in transit, a la MB's approach. West coast delivery times can be brutal. It's really annoying making three payments AND effectively paying a fourth via the ED adder when you don't even have the car to drive yet.


You made 4 payments before your car was delivered? Wow... I guess you bought your car and not leased it


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> Yes, ED is dead. I've run numbers on several different types of cars lately. If you are comparing ED invoice + xxx to US invoice + xxx, ED ends up more expensive.
> 
> The ED doc fee, MF adder, reduction in discount, and less spread between invoice and MSRP in 2017 has killed ED for good. The exception might be a hot car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation for ED. Very sad that ED is done, but I guess the Welt is too busy. We need another good global recession.


I think you are missing the whole point of the ED, it really wasn't the money safe, but the fact you get to drive your car in Europe. The euro plate on our 328 starts so many conversation with people.


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

the J-Man said:


> But US deliveries have always been subject to MACO and training fees when ED was exempt. Now the "fee" seems to apply to ED too, which narrows the gap. :dunno:


So are you saying that BEFORE last year's change, that MACO & training fees were always a specifically broken out line item for U.S. deliveries?
....and that now they are embedded in the base price? 
So a car sold retail in the U.S. will never have these fees broken out anymore then? 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was illegal.... OTOH, I've also never bought a BMW any other way other than ED. :dunno:


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Those are very important decisions that must be made in deciding to do or not to do ED and leasing.

Having the cake and eating it never been easy...



the J-Man said:


> The biggest rub for me with BMW's current program is the delay getting the car back. I suppose I would be "ok" with no discount if they didn't have an ED adder, and didn't collect lease payments while the car was in transit, a la MB's approach. West coast delivery times can be brutal. *It's really annoying making three payments AND effectively paying a fourth via the ED adder when you don't even have the car to drive yet*.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Eagle11 said:


> You made 4 payments before your car was delivered? Wow... I guess you bought your car and not leased it


I leased. My re-delivery took almost 12 weeks, so I made 3 lease payments while not having the car, and the ED adder effectively adds an extra payment worth of interest in addition to the "free" payment you receive. So, yeah. 4 extra lease payments while not having the car. Now that the ED discount has been significantly diminished, that's tough to accept. BMW should freeze the lease when you drop-off in Eurpore, and start it again when you pickup at your dealer.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Eagle11 said:


> I think you are missing the whole point of the ED, it really wasn't the money safe, but the fact you get to drive your car in Europe. The euro plate on our 328 starts so many conversation with people.


 That's true, but the topic of this thread is whether the financial incentive to do ED is gone. I would say yes for most cars.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

RichReg said:


> So are you saying that BEFORE last year's change, that MACO & training fees were always a specifically broken out line item for U.S. deliveries?
> ....and that now they are embedded in the base price?
> So a car sold retail in the U.S. will never have these fees broken out anymore then?
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was illegal.... OTOH, I've also never bought a BMW any other way other than ED. :dunno:


As far as I know, MACO and training were always broken out before for US deliveries, and I remember training even appeared on the window sticker. I seem to remember MACO being added in the same way they show acquisition fees on the lease document. Now, as I understand it, "MACO" has gone away and there is a new "fee" to take its place. I don't know where this fee will be shown for US deliveries. Training will now be included in invoice price, but not MSRP, thus narrowing the gap between MSRP and invoice, i.e. higher lease payments.

For ED, as I understand it, the $475 "fee" wont be itemized, it's essentially just an increase to the ED invoice. So the new ED invoice formula is .92 X .95 + $475. :dunno:


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

the J-Man said:


> For ED, as I understand it, the $475 "fee" wont be itemized, it's essentially just an increase to the ED invoice. So the new ED invoice formula is .92 X .95 + $475. :dunno:


Thanks for the clarification. 
"*Within one of the countless dozens of car manufacturers in the universe, lies a medium-sized star.








And one of its purchase programs, a unique overseas and insignificantly discounted experience, ...is now dead.*"


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> I leased. My re-delivery took almost 12 weeks, so I made 3 lease payments while not having the car, and the ED adder effectively adds an extra payment worth of interest in addition to the "free" payment you receive. So, yeah. 4 extra lease payments while not having the car. Now that the ED discount has been significantly diminished, that's tough to accept. B*MW should freeze the lease when you drop-off in Eurpore, and start it again when you pickup at your dealer.*


I agree on this,,


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> I leased. My re-delivery took almost 12 weeks, so I made 3 lease payments while not having the car, and the ED adder effectively adds an extra payment worth of interest in addition to the "free" payment you receive. So, yeah. 4 extra lease payments while not having the car. Now that the ED discount has been significantly diminished, that's tough to accept. BMW should freeze the lease when you drop-off in Eurpore, and start it again when you pickup at your dealer.


And you agreed to it all upfront.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Gary J said:


> And you agreed to it all upfront.


 Indeed I did. At a time when the car was significantly cheaper than it is now. The question is whether I would do it again today. I think a lot of the ED for life guys are going to think twice once they start running the numbers for MY17 and beyond.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> Indeed I did. At a time when the car was significantly cheaper than it is now. The question is whether I would do it again today. *I think a lot of the ED for life guys* are going to think twice once they start running the numbers for MY17 and beyond.


I think a lot of the ED for life guys are in it for the whole ED experience will pay the extra pocket change.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Those that are looking for a deal are not "ED for life" guys. They are just the same guys looking for a deal at the local dealership. The main purpose of ED is to have a direct manufacturer purchasing experience in their country of origin. The rest is frosting. In that order.

Most people that ask me about my EDs always start the conversation with a "I don't understand why you want to go to another country to get your car". It really makes no sense to most people regardless of the money "saved". Only people that like to travel get it right away.



the J-Man said:


> Indeed I did. At a time when the car was significantly cheaper than it is now. The question is whether I would do it again today.* I think a lot of the ED for life guys are going to think twice once they start running the numbers for MY17 and beyond.*


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## preswest (Jul 23, 2013)

Technic said:


> Those that are looking for a deal are not "ED for life" guys. They are just the same guys looking for a deal at the local dealership. The main purpose of ED is to have a direct manufacturer purchasing experience in their country of origin. The rest is frosting. In that order.
> 
> Most people that ask me about my EDs always start the conversation with a "I don't understand why you want to go to another country to get your car". It really makes no sense to most people regardless of the money "saved". Only people that like to travel get it right away.


I agree. I think the magic combination for a person to really enjoy ED is to 1) be a car nut, and 2) love to travel. I am both and I just did an ED last month. The joy I had driving my new ultimate driving machine around on my grand vacation was just amazing.

I did the numbers both for ED and for traditional US delivery. With the different mix of incentives and fees, my ED car is about $50 more to lease per month. So yes, I did pay more for the ed. BUT, my girlfriend and I were already going to vacation on Europe this year. And, most importantly... I WANTED the ED pickup experience. Apparently European customers pay an added fee on top of their purchase price for the factory pickup at the Welt, and there seemed to be a lot of them while I was there.

So, if I were to answer... ED is NOT dead. There is just going to be less people doing it. But given how many people I saw picking up cars in Munich... that might be okay.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Technic said:


> Those that are looking for a deal are not "ED for life" guys. They are just the same guys looking for a deal at the local dealership. The main purpose of ED is to have a direct manufacturer purchasing experience in their country of origin. The rest is frosting. In that order.
> 
> Most people that ask me about my EDs always start the conversation with a "I don't understand why you want to go to another country to get your car". It really makes no sense to most people regardless of the money "saved". Only people that like to travel get it right away.


I have lost count on guys asking me about the European plate on the 328. When I explain that I picked the car up at the Factory in Munich, they want to hear more. The other gravy of the ED is the fact that you have your own car on your vacation.... I think that is the best part of the whole experience.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

preswest said:


> So, if I were to answer... ED is NOT dead. There is just going to be less people doing it. But given how many people I saw picking up cars in Munich... that might be okay.


+1
As mentioned earlier in this thread, U.S. and Canadian customers doing European Delivery represent a very small fraction of total vehicle deliveries at BMW Welt. Germany domestic market customers do the vast majority of such deliveries, and the additional fee of up to 845 € for "BMW Welt Automobilabholung" doesn't faze them. 

So to answer the question in the thread title, ED may be "dead" for a few U.S. BMW customers, but BMW Welt vehicle delivery & pickup overall continues to be alive and well.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> +1
> As mentioned earlier in this thread, U.S. and Canadian customers doing European Delivery represent a very small fraction of total vehicle deliveries at BMW Welt. Germany domestic market customers do the vast majority of such deliveries, and the additional fee of up to 845 € for "BMW Welt Automobilabholung" doesn't faze them.
> 
> So to answer the question in the thread title, ED may be "dead" for a few U.S. BMW customers, but BMW Welt vehicle delivery & pickup overall continues to be alive and well.


WHen we did our ED, I asked Wolfgang what is the average deliveries they have a day, he told me between 140-160 cars.


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

I'm thinking about doing a couple more EDs , so it's definitely not dead to me.


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## John Casey (Nov 4, 2015)

Eagle11 said:


> WHen we did our ED, I asked Wolfgang what is the average deliveries they have a day, he told me between 140-160 cars.


I was told 110-ish was a large day, with the majority of those being to Germans.


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## John Casey (Nov 4, 2015)

ED is not dead to me. Picking up a car at the Welt built just the way I wanted it is a great experience.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

preswest said:


> I agree. I think the magic combination for a person to really enjoy ED is to 1) be a car nut, and 2) love to travel. I am both and I just did an ED last month. The joy I had driving my new ultimate driving machine around on my grand vacation was just amazing.
> 
> I did the numbers both for ED and for traditional US delivery. With the different mix of incentives and fees, my ED car is about $50 more to lease per month. So yes, I did pay more for the ed. BUT, my girlfriend and I were already going to vacation on Europe this year. And, most importantly... I WANTED the ED pickup experience. Apparently European customers pay an added fee on top of their purchase price for the factory pickup at the Welt, and there seemed to be a lot of them while I was there.
> 
> So, if I were to answer... ED is NOT dead. There is just going to be less people doing it. But given how many people I saw picking up cars in Munich... that might be okay.


Thanks for posting your numbers. It confirms what I've been saying about ED no longer being cheaper than US delivery. The question the OP posted in this thread was whether "ED deals are dead." I believe that answer is yes.

Over the life of your lease, you're effectively paying an extra $1800 for the ED experience. Clever BMW. They finally figured out how to charge us MORE for ED, just like the Europeans.


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## preswest (Jul 23, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> Over the life of your lease, you're effectively paying an extra $1800 for the ED experience. Clever BMW. They finally figured out how to charge us MORE for ED, just like the Europeans.


Actually it is not that much more because of the 2nd payment being skipped. But it all changes month to month based on finance and manufacturer incentives and rebates and how badly dealers need to push unsold cars off their lots. Sometimes the programs exclude ED and sometimes they don't. So my story definitely isn't going to be everyone's story.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

the J-Man said:


> Thanks for posting your numbers. *It confirms what I've been saying about ED no longer being cheaper than US delivery. The question the OP posted in this thread was whether "ED deals are dead." I believe that answer is yes.*
> 
> Over the life of your lease, you're effectively paying an extra $1800 for the ED experience. Clever BMW. They finally figured out how to charge us MORE for ED, just like the Europeans.


Basing the dead narrative on cost proves nothing. Good stuff (like a Euro vacay) costs more. You seem to think there is no value added to ED for the added (if any) cost. The cars per day numbers at the Welt prove you wrong.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Basing the dead narrative on cost proves nothing. Good stuff (like a Euro vacay) costs more. You seem to think there is no value added to ED for the added (if any) cost. The cars per day numbers at the Welt prove you wrong.


It doesn't prove the J-Man is wrong; the clarification the J-Man provided about 'ED Deals' for U.S. customers versus the overall 'ED Experience' prove the following:

U.S. BMW automobile customers who have done ED in the recent past, prior to 2016, received an unusual combination of benefits. It encompassed both a significantly lower price for the vehicle purchase itself (even after taking travel costs into consideration) PLUS a BMW Welt Delivery package comparable to the "Premium" option for customers in Germany that costs 655 ***8364;.
The changes BMW of NA applied to ED in 2016 bring the cost/benefit structure for U.S. ED customers closer to that applicable to Canadian and German customers doing BMW Welt delivery.
U.S. customers who appreciated the excellent "deal" ED provided prior to 2016 may no longer find ED on a new BMW automobile, with the higher costs, appealing. Other U.S. customers who like the benefits of ED and are willing to pay extra for them won't mind the changes.
U.S. ED customers will continue to represent a small, almost insignificant, proportion of total BMW Welt automobile deliveries.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

gkr778 said:


> It doesn't prove the J-Man is wrong; the clarification the J-Man provided about 'ED Deals' for U.S. customers versus the overall 'ED Experience' prove the following:
> 
> U.S. BMW automobile customers who have done ED in the recent past, prior to 2016, received an unusual combination of benefits. It encompassed both a significantly lower price for the vehicle purchase itself (even after taking travel costs into consideration) PLUS a BMW Welt Delivery package comparable to the "Premium" option for customers in Germany that costs 655 €.
> The changes BMW of NA applied to ED in 2016 bring the cost/benefit structure for U.S. ED customers closer to that applicable to Canadian and German customers doing BMW Welt delivery.
> ...


Right, guesswork proving nothing.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Right, guesswork proving nothing.


No guesswork involved, just economics. Higher BMW of NA ED costs for U.S. customers lead to lower demand (which was already low).


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

John Casey said:


> I was told 110-ish was a large day, with the majority of those being to Germans.





Eagle11 said:


> WHen we did our ED, I asked Wolfgang what is the average deliveries they have a day, he told me between 140-160 cars.


Sounds like some good numbers to me. Sorry it does not fit your agenda.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Sounds like some good numbers to me. Sorry it does not fit your agenda.


Not sure what "agenda" you're referring to, but those numbers concur with a BMW Group press release regarding BMW Welt Deliveries from 2015:



BMW Group said:


> *"In 2015 more than 22,000 vehicles were collected, and every day between 80 and 120 handovers, and sometimes as many as 160, can take place on the Premiere stage above the display area. The culmination of the handover process is when the customer drives the new car off the Premier ramp and out onto the streets of Munich."*


This represents a little over 1% of BMW automobile deliveries globally that year. As mentioned in the press release, the 150,000th vehicle delivery at BMW Welt since it opened nine years ago went to American ED customers (Bimmerfest member Jard!) in December 2015.


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## Boraxo (Sep 6, 2005)

When I did ED 10 years ago, it saved me two weeks car rental (valued at $1k) ... that would still be the case now. I use FF miles and don't count the meal costs which I would also incur at home. So while the price increase is unfortunate, I don't see it as a deal killer. 

I think you also forget the savings that comes from ordering a car with your exact specs. I just bought a Mercedes off the lot (no ED for the SUVs that are made in USA) and was forced to swallow $1500 in worthless options that I didn't want because they were included on virtually every vehicle (lighted star, trailer hitch, etc.) When I did ED for my BMW, I got exactly the options I wanted. (OF course could have ordered a spec Mercedes but didn't want to wait 3 months).

Really the only significant downside to ED is the wait for redelivery, particularly here on the West Coast. Not a big deal if you keep the car 10 years, but I would certainly be stale if I lost 10% of my lease value (3 of 36 months). 

Given the low #s it does seem very petty of BMW to reduce the discount.


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## sno_duc (Sep 3, 2008)

We've done three EDs, two BMWs and a Porsche.
EDs to us are about the experience.
The discounts on BMWs are nice, but not a deal breaker. (the is no discount on Porsches and depending on dealership a VAT deposit)
The good things about EDs;
Getting exactly the car you want
Being the first person to drive it (not subjected to countless test drives)
Factory tour
ED experience
Driving in Europe (mountain roads, German Autobahns)
The bad things about EDs
Extra paperwork
The WAIT (time really does slow down)
Driving in Europe (any large city)
That's my $0.02.


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## Spagolli94 (Jan 27, 2009)

If you're doing ED to save money, you're missing the point. I may have saved a couple grand on the car, but I spent a TON of money enjoying myself while I was over there. For me, it was about the experience, not the money. It's not everyday I get to go for an epic two-week road trip through Europe so the last thing I was going to do was be frugal or count pennies.


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

People are forgetting that when BMWAG came up with this whole program it was mostly to promote tourism in their homeland; as well as to allow customers a chance to drive their cars as they were built to be driven: On the AutoBahn (ie - _the experience_). So of course, most people *DON'T* do it *JUST* to save money. The _discount_ was implemented to incentivize Americans to participate because they knew then that demand for this program *WAS* and *WOULD ALWAYS* be low here in the U.S.

It is only BMWNA that is missing the point, because *THEY* are the ones concerned about the money. I mean, how long has BMW been the top selling Luxury Brand here now?, what, almost a decade or longer? O.K., so maybe they might get bumped to 2nd this year...


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

RichReg said:


> People are forgetting that when BMWAG came up with this whole program it was mostly to promote tourism in their homeland; as well as to allow customers a chance to drive their cars as they were built to be driven: On the AutoBahn (ie - _the experience_). So of course, most people *DON'T* do it *JUST* to save money. The _discount_ was implemented to incentivize Americans to participate because they knew then that demand for this program *WAS* and *WOULD ALWAYS* be low here in the U.S.
> 
> It is only BMWNA that is missing the point, because *THEY* are the ones concerned about the money. I mean, how long has BMW been the top selling Luxury Brand here now?, what, almost a decade or longer? O.K., so maybe they might get bumped to 2nd this year...


Right and the other theory is that people who take factory delivery are more likely to become loyal customers and tell others about it.

As I understand it, the ED discount was equivalent to the "hold back" that BMWNA gives dealers if they meet csi targets. I wonder if that amount was reduced and therefore the ED discount had to follow


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

Spagolli94 said:


> If you're doing ED to save money, you're missing the point. I may have saved a couple grand on the car, but I spent a TON of money enjoying myself while I was over there. For me, it was about the experience, not the money. It's not everyday I get to go for an epic two-week road trip through Europe so the last thing I was going to do was be frugal or count pennies.


But just think, if you're a cheap SOB like my wife and I, you can do multiple Europe trips each year. I make a pittance on my lousy postal service job, but thanks to credit card perks, staying at rural farms and B&Bs, traveling off season and avoiding fancy restaurants and opting for joints recommended by the locals, we usually get to spend a couple of weeks in Europe every Winter or Fall. I only wish I could figure out a way to stay even longer.


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## Ågent99 (Jan 7, 2002)

Interesting thread. I've been out of the loop for a while but I just kicked off a discussion with my dealer (Jon Shafer here at 'Fest!) to set up an ED.

I didn't realize that the cost savings may not be there but it isn't swaying me from doing it. My wife is from Serbia and we plan to drive there as part of our 4-week excursion of Europe and I'm totally looking forward to it.


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## NYCgal (Mar 23, 2016)

I think ED is still well worth it, but like anything, YMMV. 

I did ED back in April with an out of state (but well known for ED) dealership and saved about $15k off of what any of my in-state dealerships were offering me on the same car. 

ED is definitely not as cost-effective as it used to be, but most people are not doing it purely for the cost. Even if the cost were basically even for ED vs at dealership, I'd still do ED. The experience is incredible, and I can't wait to go back and do it again in a couple of years. Taking delivery of your car in Europe, driving the autobahns, having a limo driver pick you up from the airport, seeing your car spinning on a platform at the Welt... it's an unparalleled experience. 

My in-state dealerships were not willing to "play ball" on negotiating, and it's likely that had I gone to the same out of state dealership and negotiated for a car on their lot I still could have gotten a similar (though higher, because of the lower ED invoice) deal, but like I said -- it's not all about the money. The experience is well worth it, even without the financial incentives they used to have.

The other thing someone else noted is that you can get EXACTLY the options you want -- I personally love heated seats, but hate paying for the Nav package. It's hard to find ANY cars on a lot that do not have NAV (and if you can find it, they don't usually have any other features), so I saved another $2500 by not having to pay for an option I didn't want.


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

Since the original poster is retired, spend a month or two in Europe. I cannot go for more than a week.

See the country and smaller cities, return the car, then see the big cities, like Paris while your car is being shipped.


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

Dave 20T said:


> Since the original poster is retired, spend a month or two in Europe. I cannot go for more than a week.
> 
> See the country and smaller cities, return the car, then see the big cities, like Paris while your car is being shipped.


Exactly what my father did for several years after retirement, except with M-Benz.
Who, as mentioned, still retain their 7% discount;PLUS waiver of the destination charge.
All I got to do was pick him up at the airport at summer's end...

It should be noted that the road insurance up-charge going past 2 weeks starts to increase pretty quickly the longer you stay in Europe.


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## Trinitony (Feb 10, 2010)

I note that a few people are saying that one advantage of doing ED is that you can order exactly what you want in the way of options on the car that you are buying/leasing. I hope that you realize that you do not have to take a car off the dealer's lot with the options that the dealer decides are the most marketable. You can order a US-delivery BMW with the exact options that you want from that same dealer. 

The US Delivery car will take about as long as your ED car would to arrive home in the US. It will probably cost about 5% more than the ED car but you will not have to pay for it until it arrives in the US. So, if you are leasing on the west coast, you will not lose two months while the car takes an Atlantic/Pacific cruise and you stay at home and call both your CA and BMWNA every day to find out where your car is located.

I am not promoting US Delivery - just saying that it is another way that you can get the options that you want and do not have to take "Hobson's Choice". In fact I am a firm believer in European Delivery. I really enjoy travelling around Europe. I have taken several trips to Europe using rental cars and two where I have leased ED BMWs. One of my rental cars just happened to be a 3 Series BMW - which is why I am now a Bimmer Fan. There is no question in my mind that your own ED BMW is the better choice for seeing Europe.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Let's face it. For some ED is price in-elastic, i.e. shifts in the marginal price doesn't have much effect on subsequent demand. For others ED is very price elastic i.e. when the cost goes up demand drops commensurately.

Only you can answer which camp you fall into.

Personally for me, ED is typically part of a larger European vacation strategy. If we happen to be planning a European excursion when in the market for a new car then there is a good chance that ED will be part of the equation.

I will say that it does reduce the gap between a BMW ED and say an Audi/Volvo ED.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

3ismagic# said:


> Let's face it. For some ED is price in-elastic, i.e. shifts in the marginal price doesn't have much effect on subsequent demand. For others ED is very price elastic i.e. when the cost goes up demand drops commensurately.
> 
> Only you can answer which camp you fall into.
> 
> ...


Many folks, myself included, used EDs as a way to save some money on the puchase of a new BMW. Personally I feel those days are over with the increase in travel costs and the reduced discount. That said, ED is still a wonderful opportunity to combine a trip to Europe with the delivery of a new car, be it a BMW, MB, Audi or Volvo.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

rmorin49 said:


> Many folks, myself included, used EDs as a way to save some money on the puchase of a new BMW. *Personally I feel those days are over with the increase in travel costs* and the reduced discount. That said, ED is still a wonderful opportunity to combine a trip to Europe with the delivery of a new car, be it a BMW, MB, Audi or Volvo.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using Bimmerfest mobile app


Actually a great time for ED now between the strong dollar and small carriers putting downward pressure on airfares.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Actually a great time for ED now between the strong dollar and small carriers putting downward pressure on airfares.


who uses money for airfare?


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Eagle11 said:


> who uses money for airfare?


Sorry, comment makes no sense. If you mean ff rewards you spent money to get them.


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## mgthompson (Oct 14, 2007)

Boraxo said:


> When I did ED 10 years ago, it saved me two weeks car rental (valued at $1k) ... that would still be the case now. I use FF miles and don't count the meal costs which I would also incur at home. So while the price increase is unfortunate, I don't see it as a deal killer.


When we did ED 7 years ago we also used airline miles, and used hotel points in Munich and Frankfurt. We saved 1k by not needing a rental car, and had a lot fun driving my new toy. With the cost savings on the car we got a two week vacation in Europe for free. We will do ED again even if there is no cost savings.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Gary J said:


> Sorry, comment makes no sense. If you mean ff rewards you spent money to get them.


Well someone else money, yes.


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## CarSwami (Oct 2, 2005)

Even when my family and I did an ED in 2007, I'm not sure that I saved any money compared to what I would have spent if I had simply bought the car at my local dealership. There were four of us on the ED and I did not have enough FF miles or hotel points for "free" tickets or hotel rooms. But the memories of that trip are still fresh in our minds and we still talk about many of our experiences whenever we get together. For me, that is "priceless".

Fast forward to 2017 and I am starting to talk to my family again about doing another ED, except that this time it will be for an Audi SUV. The logistics will be harder now because of the passage of time and the fact that the family has scattered, but I'm still seriously thinking about it even though I know that the financial justification will be even worse now than it was in 2007. But to me, that was never the point of doing ED in the first place.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

CarSwami said:


> Even when my family and I did an ED in 2007, I'm not sure that I saved any money compared to what I would have spent if I had simply bought the car at my local dealership. There were four of us on the ED and I did not have enough FF miles or hotel points for "free" tickets or hotel rooms. But the memories of that trip are still fresh in our minds and we still talk about many of our experiences whenever we get together. For me, that is "priceless".
> 
> Fast forward to 2017 and I am starting to talk to my family again about doing another ED, except that this time it will be for an Audi SUV. The logistics will be harder now because of the passage of time and the fact that the family has scattered, but I'm still seriously thinking about it even though *I know that the financial justification will be even worse now than it was in 2007. *But to me, that was never the point of doing ED in the first place.


As has been pointed out not necessarily adjusting for inflation, value of the dollar and cheaper airfares. I just booked a luxury room with patio on Lake Como in the lower $100s/day.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Gary J said:


> As has been pointed out not necessarily adjusting for inflation, value of the dollar and cheaper airfares. I just booked a luxury room with patio on Lake Como in the lower $100s/day.


Good point - it's cheaper than ever to travel to Europe now.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

It's true. $ is very strong but do an ED because you want to not to save money. Also USAA incentives are not honored with EDs. Great way to tour Europe in a great "free rental car".

Sent from my LG-H811 using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

bmw325 said:


> Good point - it's cheaper than ever to travel to Europe now.


I am not so sure about that. Cheaper compared to what? Compared to $750 RT from Podunk, OH to Podunk, NC on legacy carrier (only one who goes there) and then paying $138/night for Holiday Inn Express and $50/day for standard size rental? Then yes, is it definitely cheaper to go to EU, you were NEVER gouged by travel industry in U.S. as you are right now.

Compared to U.S. travel for work now, even when 1 Euro = $1.5 not so long ago, it was possibly still slightly cheaper to go to Europe.

I usually fly there, mainly to VCE, about 3-4 times each year. Granted, I am not your usual tourist and do not usually spend money on stuff tourists do, so my experience might be somewhat different. I still spend 2-3 nights in a hotel per trip on average, buy airfare and rent a car - even if it usually isn't myself, someone still pays for it  So I know what it costs ...


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## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

CarSwami said:


> Even when my family and I did an ED in 2007, I'm not sure that I saved any money compared to what I would have spent if I had simply bought the car at my local dealership. There were four of us on the ED and I did not have enough FF miles or hotel points for "free" tickets or hotel rooms. But the memories of that trip are still fresh in our minds and we still talk about many of our experiences whenever we get together. For me, that is "priceless".
> 
> Fast forward to 2017 and I am starting to talk to my family again about doing another ED, except that this time it will be for an *Audi SUV*. The logistics will be harder now because of the passage of time and the fact that the family has scattered, but I'm still seriously thinking about it even though I know that the financial justification will be even worse now than it was in 2007. But to me, that was never the point of doing ED in the first place.


Hope it's not Q5 - assembly of Q5 moved to Mexico for 2017 year build - no more ED.


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## CarSwami (Oct 2, 2005)

Gary J said:


> As has been pointed out not necessarily adjusting for inflation, value of the dollar and cheaper airfares. I just booked a luxury room with patio on Lake Como in the lower $100s/day.


Airfares were actually quite good in 2007 and I got hotel rooms at the Hilton, Marriott and comparable hotels for about $70 per night using Priceline. I know that the exchange rate is much better now than it was then, so my guess is that the economics of doing ED today are probably not much different than they were in 2007. The point I was trying to make is that I did not do an ED in 2007 to save money, and if I do another one in 2017, saving money will not be the decisive factor. It will be more for the experience and time spent together with my family, something that I cannot put a price on. As the years go by, getting everyone in my family to go on a vacation like we used to do when everyone was younger, is getting harder and harder to organize. I'm sure you and others can relate to what I am saying!



MB330 said:


> Hope it's not Q5 - assembly of Q5 moved to Mexico for 2017 year build - no more ED.


Nope, I'm looking at the Q7!


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

CarSwami said:


> *Airfares were actually quite good in 2007 and I got hotel rooms at the Hilton, Marriott and comparable hotels for about $70 per night using Priceline.* I know that the exchange rate is much better now than it was then, so my guess is that the economics of doing ED today are probably not much different than they were in 2007. The point I was trying to make is that I did not do an ED in 2007 to save money, and if I do another one in 2017, saving money will not be the decisive factor. It will be more for the experience and time spent together with my family, something that I cannot put a price on. As the years go by, getting everyone in my family to go on a vacation like we used to do when everyone was younger, is getting harder and harder to organize. I'm sure you and others can relate to what I am saying!


That's 10 years ago is my point. In today's dollars prices are still good and even better with favorable exchange rate.


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