# MotorWeek Re: E90



## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

stated a base price of $37K :yikes:


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

For which trim level?


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

the 330i?


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

There is no way that a 325i at that price point is going to fly in the US. Especially not with the new design and interior.

I can't imagine much of a price increase over the current model.


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## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

That must be for 330i. If not, BMW is going to have a problem.


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## brybarrett (Feb 2, 2002)

That's the project base price for the 330i. A well equipped model will probably get you in the mid 40's. :thumbdwn:


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

brybarrett said:


> That's the project base price for the 330i. A well equipped model will probably get you in the mid 40's. :thumbdwn:


If this is the pricing, I'll bet it comes down in the second year - much like the X3 3.0. Sounds overpriced compared to the competition. Also, with the cheapish interior, many US buyers will walk to Infiniti and save $10K. Many nicer cars can be had for $45K.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2004)

But there isn't going to be a 325, right? There's a 330 and a 335.

So this would be the base price of the "smaller" engine.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

TD said:


> But there isn't going to be a 325, right? There's a 330 and a 335.
> 
> So this would be the base price of the "smaller" engine.


I thought there was a 325i, a 330i, and then the possibility of a turbo 330i to bridge to the M variant.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2004)

xspeedy said:


> I thought there was a 325i, a 330i, and then the possibility of a turbo 330i to bridge to the M variant.


 I could be wrong. I'll admit I'm not paying close attention. There is very little chance I'll ever buy one.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

335 diesel, not petrol. I think that we should wait and see it come out of BMW because I just cannot believe that they will jack the prices like that, especially when the competition is so fierce.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

TD said:


> I could be wrong. I'll admit I'm not paying close attention. There is very little chance I'll ever buy one.


There'll be a 218hp 325i and a 258hp 330i.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

brybarrett said:


> That's the project base price for the 330i. A well equipped model will probably get you in the mid 40's. :thumbdwn:


If your took a second to check, a 2005 330i starts at $36,395. So, "around $37,000" means that the new model would have a very minimal price increase from the current model. I don't see what the big deal is... the current 330i sells just fine at the current pricing level.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

SARAFIL said:


> There'll be a 218hp 325i and a 258hp 330i.


A 218hp 325 will be quite a bargain and a great car. That's only 7hp short of the current 330.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

Warot said:


> 335 diesel, not petrol. I think that we should wait and see it come out of BMW because I just cannot believe that they will jack the prices like that, especially when the competition is so fierce.


Don`t bet on it....this past January, I was trying to decide on a replacement for my `99 528i SP, which, pretty well optioned, stickered for $46,300....an `04 530i with comparable options stickered at a hair under $58,000....that`s a *big* increase, don`t think I could justify that price even if I did like the car....so I ordered a ZHP Coupe instead....no regrets....

Regards,
Bob


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## brybarrett (Feb 2, 2002)

I believe everyone here knows what the current prices of the three are. The new model won't be a deal until around the 3rd year of production, that is when bmw will start adding optional equipment as standard. :tsk: BMW has to be very careful because they could be on their way on pricing themselves out of the sports sedan market, a market which they created. : :dunno:


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

brybarrett said:


> I believe everyone here knows what the current prices of the three are. The new model won't be a deal until around the 3rd year of production, that is when bmw will start adding optional equipment as standard. BMW has to be very careful because they could be on their way on pricing themselves out of the sports sedan market, a market which they created. Funny how things can come full circle.


If BMW has made no announcement on equipment levels, how can you assume that the new model will be much more expensive than the outgoing model? It's still too soon to make any determination on whether or not they are pricing themselves out of the market.


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## brybarrett (Feb 2, 2002)

Well this whole thread is based on speculation. But being a customer for over 8 years and seeing how they package their cars I believe my assessment is right on!


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## HankM3 (Nov 5, 2002)

I'd imagine the first few years of the E90 BMW will do some serious "nickel and diming" of the customers. Example... the nonstandard armrest on early E46 325's.

We can only hope that in a few years an equivalent "ZHP"package for the E90 330i won't push the price into the range of the upcoming Porsche Boxster Coupe.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

SARAFIL said:


> If your took a second to check, a 2005 330i starts at $36,395. So, "around $37,000" means that the new model would have a very minimal price increase from the current model. I don't see what the big deal is... the current 330i sells just fine at the current pricing level.


Yup. And we have over 100 names on our E90 interest list, so I'd have to say that early signs point to this car being a hit.


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

SARAFIL, do you know the torque #'s on the 2 engines?

Thanks


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

tgravo2 said:


> SARAFIL, do you know the torque #'s on the 2 engines?
> 
> Thanks


330i: 258bhp and 300Nm (221lb-ft) at 2,500-4,000rpm

325i: 218bhp and 250Nm (184lb-ft) at 2,750-4,250rpm

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=939492&postcount=13


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## tgravo2 (Dec 7, 2002)

Technic said:


> 330i: 258bhp and 300Nm (221lb-ft) at 2,500-4,000rpm
> 
> 325i: 218bhp and 250Nm (184lb-ft) at 2,750-4,250rpm
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=939492&postcount=13


I thought the torque would have increased more than that over the current engines


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

tgravo2 said:


> I thought the torque would have increased more than that over the current engines


I've noticed that torque figures seem to pretty much follow engine displacement --even acrosss engine manufacturers and years. So, while you might se one car getting 150 hp from a 2.5 liter 4 cyliner, another getting 200 HP, and nother getting 180-- they'll all have roughtly the same torque figures. :dunno:


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

But just look where you have this torque available. 1000 RPMs lower than in the current models. I bet that you WILL be able to tell that when you drive them and they WILL feel faster to you in daily driving which in the typical city driving happens mostly at lower RPMs.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Technic said:


> 330i: 258bhp and 300Nm (221lb-ft) at 2,500-4,000rpm
> 
> 325i: 218bhp and 250Nm (184lb-ft) at 2,750-4,250rpm
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=939492&postcount=13


Those are pretty disappointing numbers. The 330i ZHP puts out more torque then that. :tsk:


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

They also stated the 3-Series moves upscale and the 1-Series obviously becomes the entry level BMW. 

Keep in mind the E60 increased around $5k. Correct? :dunno:


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

TD said:


> But there isn't going to be a 325, right? There's a 330 and a 335.
> 
> So this would be the base price of the "smaller" engine.


? There is 320i, 320d, 325i and 330i. I am not aware of any published material for the US market, although clearly the 320x models won't be sold there. Either way, $37k is pretty cheap considering the strong Euro, even if its strength is probably temporary (and is starting to hurt Euroland exports).


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Sean said:


> They also stated the 3-Series moves upscale and the 1-Series obviously becomes the entry level BMW.
> 
> Keep in mind the E60 increasing around $5k.


If BMW raises the price of the E90 by $5,000 next year, without having a cheaper 1-series available, they will be totally screwed. They can afford that bump on a 5-series, but they can't do that with a 3-series. They really can't go too crazy with the price if they want to maintain strong sales-- the 325 has to stay in the $30,000 neighborhood, and the 330 has to be pretty close to the current price.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Andy said:


> Those are pretty disappointing numbers. The 330i ZHP puts out more torque then that. :tsk:


...yes, at a peak. And (as if you need reminding!) the "ZHP" is a NA-only special, made in limited numbers, not a world-market car. So while the current, tweaked NA-markets car still puts out a whopping 4 lb-ft more than the new E90, the rest of us will be able to enjoy the broader plateau of the newer engine, and its larger rev range (though the outgoing, regular 330i was hardly peaky in the first place).


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

TD said:


> But there isn't going to be a 325, right? There's a 330 and a 335.
> 
> So this would be the base price of the "smaller" engine.


Yes, there is going to be a 325. New engine is mentioned in the Oct. Roundel.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

Sean said:


> They also stated the 3-Series moves upscale and the 1-Series obviously becomes the entry level BMW.
> 
> Keep in mind the E60 increased around $5k. Correct? :dunno:


Not in America (no 1 series here, at least for now), nor in Europe - they had Compact for the entry level BMW for as long as I can remember.

This is all speculation but I can't see the price of E90 go up more than say $1K compared to the equivalent models.


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

Wallenrod said:


> Not in America (no 1 series here, at least for now), nor in Europe - they had Compact for the entry level BMW for as long as I can remember.


Incorrect. BMW AG has confirmed the 1-Series is coming in Sedan, Coupe and convertible form. It will be initally availbale with the new 2.5 engine (valvetronic)

1-Series Coming to America


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

Sean said:


> Incorrect. BMW AG has confirmed the 1-Series is coming in Sedan, Coupe and convertible form. It will be initally availbale with the new 2.5 engine (valvetronic)
> 
> 1-Series Coming to America


Many things can happen before 2007 but even if it does happen (and I sincerely hope it does, don't get me wrong) this is still 2 years away from E90 launch. They can't just jack up prices and reshuffle the product line so drasticly "in anticipation" of the new entry level 1 series.


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

Wallenrod said:


> Many things can happen before 2007 but even if it does happen (and I sincerely hope it does, don't get me wrong) this is still 2 years away from E90 launch. They can't just jack up prices and reshuffle the product line so drasticly "in anticipation" of the new entry level 1 series.


I would assume that would be MY 2007. SOP 09/06, if not before then.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

The 2005 330 includes a moonroof, H&K stereo, power seats, all standard. If the E90 doesn't have those standard, yet is $37k starting, that's a price increase of $2k or so.


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## Fzara2000 (Jan 22, 2004)

BMW's strategy wasn't so smart then. The only reason they bumped up the HP numbers was to make it look appealing and attractive on paper compared to other cars.

Its still a 2.5L, and it still produces the same amount of torque as the current 325. If I was BMW AG, I would have definitely bumped the displacement of the 325 and created a 335 or something.


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## RandyB (Mar 4, 2003)

I would like to see the torque curves of the two new motors vs. the old ones just for the sake of comparison. Just because the peak numbers didn't move much doesn't mean that they didn't make any progress. If the new motors have a broader torque curve and an earlier peak, then you will definitely be able to tell a difference. Since displacement stayed the same, the torque peak isn't going to go up much if at all but hopefully the characteristics are much improved.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Agreed. Peak torque by itself means nothing.


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## jrp (Nov 11, 2004)

xspeedy said:


> Agreed. Peak torque by itself means nothing.


Very true. A case in point would be the US-spec E36 M3 vs. an E46 M3, 236 @ 3800 vs. 262 @ 4900 (on a heavier car). Just looking at the numbers on paper would suggest that the E46 will be a peaky pig next to the more svelte E36. However, driving them back to back leaves no doubt that the E46 is definitely much faster at any RPM range.


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

You really need to see a torque curve to be able to say anything useful about the torque numbers. All else being equal, maintaining high torque at high RPMs is what you want, and that combo naturally produces high HP. A car that peaks its torque low in the RPMs and drops off wouldn't be very interesting (something unfortunately that the M52TU in my car does ). 

Look at the torque curve of the Nissan 350Z for something that's pretty ideal: torque is flat all the way to redline, while HP (as a consequence) rises linearly with RPM. That engine cannot be improved with breathing mods since it's just about perfect as it is. You'd have to do forced induction to get any real improvements.

--Andre


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

Like Dawg says, it's the decontenting that really amounts to a price increase.

I'm concerned the 325 may come in at around thirty, but with what missing?

If the new interior feels as cheap as the one in the new five, then I'll be disappointed.

I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude.

Ed


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

EdCT said:


> Like Dawg says, it's the decontenting that really amounts to a price increase.
> 
> I'm concerned the 325 may come in at around thirty, but with what missing?
> 
> ...


Don't know how its going to feel-- but we've all seen the interior pics, and it does look cheap-- maybe not quite as bad as the 5 though.


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## fundman (Oct 14, 2004)

SARAFIL said:


> If BMW raises the price of the E90 by $5,000 next year, without having a cheaper 1-series available, they will be totally screwed. They can afford that bump on a 5-series, but they can't do that with a 3-series. They really can't go too crazy with the price if they want to maintain strong sales-- the 325 has to stay in the $30,000 neighborhood, and the 330 has to be pretty close to the current price.


I agree, but I think they'd be screwed even with a 1-Series available; there are too many strong competitors for the 3. I'm in the market for one this spring. I've decided to go with the E90 as long as the price increase is not significant (i.e. more than $2k or so) and I get the the same content level. If they jack up the price any higher than that, it becomes a no-brainer and I take my money to Audi, or Infiniti, or Acura. I can live with the risks/headaches/kinks of a first model year car but I'll be damned if I pay a premium for that when other perfectly good options exist.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Considering that the majority of 330s I see on the road are equipped past the $40k mark, a $37k base isn't going to stop anyone around these parts. Take the 325's starting up to $32k (it's just under $30k now, IIRC) and it won't make a difference, either. And IMO the 1er won't make a huge dent in 3er sales either. It'll just make the ~$4k(???) up to the E90 seem worthwhile to get a far larger car with usable back seats.

And since the industry game is HP numbers, BMW needs to play that game too And it doesn't help that the auto press is caught up in it too. Every review I see for the new Ford 500 bitches about how it 'only' has 203bhp. Considering the Taurus comes with 155...

And you do 'drive torque' but it's definitely NOT about peak torque. I'll be honest and say that in normal driving my 325 with 170lbft of fat torque feels a lot more responsive than my M6 with 236lbft of peaky torque.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

I wouldn't say that we are seeing decontenting as much as content shuffling. BMW basically took money out of the interior and put it towards the greater aluminum structures in the front end. Of course, we won't visually see the aluminum, so the appreciation is less, and the overall effect becomes one of decontenting.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> I wouldn't say that we are seeing decontenting as much as content shuffling. BMW basically took money out of the interior and put it towards the greater aluminum structures in the front end. Of course, we won't visually see the aluminum, so the appreciation is less, and the overall effect becomes one of decontenting.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the E90 has an aluminum front end.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

philippek said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the E90 has an aluminum front end.


You're right, just the 5 series does. So maybe the E90 will have a better interior than the 5?


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Dawg90 said:


> You're right, just the 5 series does. So maybe the E90 will have a better interior than the 5?


From the pictures, it does look a little better than the 5's. Unfortunately, the basic "concept" for the dash is flawed.


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

robg said:


> I've noticed that torque figures seem to pretty much follow engine displacement --even acrosss engine manufacturers and years. So, while you might se one car getting 150 hp from a 2.5 liter 4 cyliner, another getting 200 HP, and nother getting 180-- they'll all have roughtly the same torque figures. :dunno:


A 600cc dirt-bike single making 33 bhp and a 599cc supersport four making 95 bhp will both produce peak torque figures of c. 40 lb-ft. One is much faster than the other, so I'm not clear on whether the new, 'zingier' 325 is going to feel slower. Maybe outside of the last 3000 rpm it will...

I don't know, some part of me says it'll just be an overpriced option package....


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

norihaga said:


> A 600cc dirt-bike single making 33 bhp and a 599cc supersport four making 95 bhp will both produce peak torque figures of c. 40 lb-ft. One is much faster than the other, so I'm not clear on whether the new, 'zingier' 325 is going to feel slower. Maybe outside of the last 3000 rpm it will...


That's because torque by itself doesn't tell you how fast the car is going to go. You need to know RPMs and gearing as well. 40 lb-ft of torque at 1000 RPM is not going to generate much power compared to 40 lb-ft at 10000 RPM.

--Andre


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## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

robg said:


> From the pictures, it does look a little better than the 5's. Unfortunately, the basic "concept" for the dash is flawed.


My feelings exactly.

I think both engines will likely be very nice with noticible (useful) power increases (hopefully without noticlble weight increases for the larger size car...) - seems like they will be very quick to rev to the limit - giving useful power throughout the band - I expect that they will be a high point...

Overall new 3 seems a very nice package - but the dash - complelty does not do it for me....but I think the 3 is going from sport to lexus like luxury...unfourtunatly - I think the Jap cars provide some great alternatives for such...and I'd like to see BMW go towards greater sport & performance vs luxury...I think they might be missing the mark here. And I saw the 1 series in Germany (took a few pics..) - and frankly I was not so impressed - interior in particular looked really cheap...Audi 3 series seems much nicer IMO....(of course without having driven either)...just from looks of the package.

So we'll see if BMW can maintain its marque image...I don't think that there is a question that they will slip a bit...they need a real home run image car (thats at least reasonably affordable)...perhaps a sport/lightweight version of the new 3 series (all cladded up etc to actually look good)...or perhaps a 1 series derived (very affordable) convertable - stripped down but with great handling/performance and looks the girls like....etc


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