# Manual Transmission Future



## babikes (Apr 14, 2008)

With the advent of DCT and other new age ATs, what is the future for the MT? It seems that more and more manufacturers are only offering ATs, and there is limited availability of cars with MT. I leased a 2011 E93 M3 with 6MT, and considering purchase at the end of the lease. Assuming I decide to sell it in 4 or 5 years, what's the prospect that there will be any potential MT buyers out there?

Us old guys (I'm 68) who grow up on MT and are still around will disappear down the road. Are there enough younger buyers? If you still drive MT, please post you age.


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

It's possible that I might keep my new BMW for 15 years. If so, it could be my last manual. I don't drive a manual because of learning on it. I didn't drive one until a few years after getting my first driver's license.


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## Tom K. (May 10, 2008)

babikes said:


> With the advent of DCT and other new age ATs, what is the future for the MT? It seems that more and more manufacturers are only offering ATs, and there is limited availability of cars with MT. I leased a 2011 E93 M3 with 6MT, and considering purchase at the end of the lease. Assuming I decide to sell it in 4 or 5 years, what's the prospect that there will be any potential MT buyers out there?
> 
> Us old guys (I'm 68) who grow up on MT and are still around will disappear down the road. Are there enough younger buyers? If you still drive MT, please post you age.


That's a good question, as I got nearly 25% off my new '91 Taurus SHO since it had been sitting on the dealer's lot awaiting someone who wanted a stick shift. Being a year older than you, my last A/T was a '73 Plymouth Fury, as I needed a large trunk (and an inexpensive car) at the time and it only came with Torqueflite.

I share your concern as my daily driver '07 E91 is one of the few with MT. For the new F31 wagon, while Europeans have over 50 drivetrain combinations to chose from (including MT), the US has only two - both with Steptronic and all wheel drive. So unless my current ride lasts long enough for BMW to see the error of their ways, it will probably be replaced by a MT TDI Jetta wagon when the time comes. At least my Boxster is still available with a 6 speed - although more folks are springing for the $3,200 PDK...

Tom


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## Carraway (Sep 16, 2010)

I bought a new manual transmission car last year, and they are not easy to find. Even a local BMW dealer only had automatics in its new car stock. (At least there were two CPOs with manuals to test drive). I was even disturbed to take a look at MX-5 listings at the same company's Mazda dealer and find half were automatics. That's really wrong. 

At 47 now, I'm not young, either, so I have doubts about the future of manuals. I at least see a lot of interest in them among colleagues under 40, but I don't know how many will actually buy one. A couple of DCGs, but I think they'd rather have a true manual, or at least want to know how to drive one.

A while back I had to switch to automatics after a hiking accident. Now I'm very happy to be back to driving stick shifts.


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## BDSBMer (Jul 6, 2013)

Dave 20T said:


> It's possible that I might keep my new BMW for 15 years. If so, it could be my last manual. I don't drive a manual because of learning on it. I didn't drive one until a few years after getting my first driver's license.


Luvin my 6 speed MT at 63!:thumbup:


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## stonex1 (Oct 10, 2012)

babikes said:


> With the advent of DCT and other new age ATs, what is the future for the MT? It seems that more and more manufacturers are only offering ATs, and there is limited availability of cars with MT. I leased a 2011 E93 M3 with 6MT, and considering purchase at the end of the lease. Assuming I decide to sell it in 4 or 5 years, what's the prospect that there will be any potential MT buyers out there?
> 
> Us old guys (I'm 68) who grow up on MT and are still around will disappear down the road. Are there enough younger buyers? If you still drive MT, please post you age.


Future for MT? Very bleek.

Future for a potential buyer of your M3? Very high!
Its an M3, most M3 owners probably want a MT. Even younger buyers.

But most 3 series or X model buyers probably want an AT.


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

stonex1 said:


> But most 3 series or X model buyers probably want an AT.


When doing European delivery, the delivery specialist said that her personal observation was a little more than half of 3 series buyers bought an manual and the total percentage for all BMWs as a whole was not quite half.

In contrast, dealer inventory is almost completely automatics.


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## imp.the.dimp (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm 18 and learned on a manual. I also have quite a few friends who drive manuals and take pride in it. There will always be a market for it if you ask me 


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

My 30 year old son drives two manual transmission vehicles. I own 2. My other three kids cannot drive a manual, however. My wife can but prefers an automatic. I think there will continue to be automatics. In other parts of the world they are still the standard. Try getting an automatic rental car in Europe without reserving it. But in the U. S. the automatic will continue to gain share.

I don't see better automatics as much of a factor. Old style autos can shift the gears quicker than I can. But they also do it when I do not want them to. That's the point. Paddles feel funny. Real cars, particularly sporty ones, have a clutch. My japanese SUV has a clutch.

Jim


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## Tom K. (May 10, 2008)

Dave 20T said:


> When doing European delivery, the delivery specialist said that her personal observation was a little more than half of 3 series buyers bought an manual and the total percentage for all BMWs as a whole was not quite half.
> 
> In contrast, dealer inventory is almost completely automatics.


I wonder where she got those stats as I recall reading a couple of years ago that a maximum 10% of all BMWs (excluding motorcycles) imported into the U.S. are equipped with MT.

Tom


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## babikes (Apr 14, 2008)

Tom K. said:


> I wonder where she got those stats as I recall reading a couple of years ago that a maximum 10% of all BMWs (excluding motorcycles) imported into the U.S. are equipped with MT.
> 
> Tom


Europeans can also pick up, so her observations are probably a mixture of NA and E customers.


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## cxp (Dec 10, 2005)

Five of six cars in my immediate family are manuals (and four are BMWs). Several of my co-workers drive manuals. 

I predict that manual transmissions will become more difficult to find but will remain available. Hardcore manual drivers won't buy autos, so a few manufacturers should be smart enough to offer them. 

If BMW stops offering manuals, I'll look elsewhere. There's a reason I won't even look at Lexus or Infiniti when it's time for a new car - no third pedal, no care.

You will have no problems selling a manual M3.


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## thumper_330 (Jan 3, 2009)

Unfortunately I agree with a lot of the comments here; the future for the manual is quite bleak. It's not helped by the fact that the push for efficiency means that development has gone into autos with more and more gears to get that efficiency up, and they've succeeded. But with government mandates pushing for better and better fuel efficiency it's quite possible we'll see the death of manuals in certain model lines.

I think the 1'er, 2'er and 4'er will still be available with manuals in this generation, but the 3'er and 5'er I think might see the complete loss of manuals by the end of their model run... again due to the efficiency drive.

Modern autos ARE good. I drive a 135i with a DCT and it's a really good transmission. Because of the way I drive it, it shifts only when I want it to and does it very effectively. I drive it in manual mode all the time, using the shifter itself to change gears. I do that because I've driven so many manual cars that it's comfortable to me. There are times I use the paddles though, particularly when slowing down for a set of lights.

In general though we're going to see less and less driver involvement from our cars. Even as a driving nut I realize that sooner rather than later we are headed in the direction of completely automated vehicles; cars you drive yourself will be antiques that you take to special tracks. I honestly believe this'll happen in my lifetime, and I'm 40!


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## boramkiv (Jan 8, 2011)

BDSBMer said:


> Luvin my 6 speed MT at 63!:thumbup:


Unbelievable...:thumbup:

Save the manuals.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

When I was in Munich 2 months ago for ED most of e46 and e90's were manuals. However, most F30 I saw in Europe were autos.


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## Ginobass (Jun 10, 2013)

I bought a 2010 328i coupe with 6MT, my first BMW, for myself for Father's Day (I'm 57) and there's no way I would have considered it without the manual. No. Way. I learned to drive on my grandfather's farm in a WW2 Willys jeep bringback and I love an MT. Had an MGB in the 70s, MT and great fun. Having driven minivans and such (practical but soooooo boring) for the last couple decades when it was time to treat myself an AT was out of the question. I'm glad I found it, and from what I've gathered there's not alot of them around. I'm a happy guy!


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## Ginobass (Jun 10, 2013)

Oh and the future? They'll still be around is my guess.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

First let me state something that you all are missing. Let me state it in bold.

*The only reason there is a danger of MT extinction are bureaucretins you voted into their Washington seats. No, it's not about efficiency, it is about federalization rules.* The most idiotic set of rules known to modern man.

I, as an European, have to shake my head to this fatalism and how readily people here accept it. Let me give you counter-example ... you could have bought AT in Europe forever, even though less than 1% of the cars were sold with one 20 - 30 years ago. Same goes with, for example, top loaders washing machines. Probably less than 2-3% of those were sold, but you still could buy one if you wanted. People want your money even if you think you are in such huge minority. Heck, I just read in Car magazine (UK) that Caterham is still very happily churning all of 500 cars a year and are doing so profitably.

So, kick your useless politicians in the ass and out of the office. Loudly. Making sure they know why they were sent home. Stop whining, moaning, b|tching and crying. Start hitting. Hard. You do that and MT is not going anywhere for as long as ICE is being put in the cars. As a matter of fact, the MT extinction might be coming from electric motor, not AT which will get extinct together with its eternal foe - the glorious manual transmission.

I'm 46 and I will never buy an ICE powered car with an automatic transmission for as long as I can use my 4 limbs normally.


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## Keyser Soze (Oct 24, 2003)

It's not "big gubmint takin' are freedumz" it's the fact that the avg yuppie buyer of our cars doesn't want a MT because they are too busy juggling their phones and coffee and if they are under 40 probably never learned how to drive MT anyway.

I love the MT on my E46 but I don't love the MT on my F10 (mostly due to the cars heft) and would not order it again. I think MT's are pretty dumb on bigger cars now, especially with all the electronic gizmos you have to run simultaneously now. 

I learned how to drive MT on my father's 1981 F150 (I am 45), that thing was a pig. I love MT's but flappy paddle is the future (for at least bigger cars)


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Situation is sooo different in the UK. To get a "full" driving license you must past the road test in a manual transmission car. Take the test in an automatic and you will get a restricted license.

BMW dealer demonstrators are nearly all manuals. When we test drove an X3 with automatic, the sales person asked me if I knew how to drive an automatic 

Many Brits first time in an automatic is when they rent a car in the US.


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## Burning2nd (Aug 26, 2010)

We dont allow automatics in our drive way..

If your a manual trans driver.. your a manual trans driver... 

you wont post about.. how traffic.. this.. and my leg that..

If my leg falls off tomorrow... Ill be making a hand lever for the clutch petal 
end of line


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

Keyser Soze said:


> It's not "big gubmint takin' are freedumz" it's the fact that the avg yuppie buyer of our cars doesn't want a MT because they are too busy juggling their phones and coffee and if they are under 40 probably never learned how to drive MT anyway.


When a stupid Gubmint shows up with extended hand for a north of $1,000,000 vig to allow carmaker to sell that car and the ONLY difference from the other one (for which they already paid a vig of more than $1,000,000) is a transmission ... yea, big gubmint IS takin' are freedumz. Whether you like it or not.

Why do we let them play this Tony Soprano extortion game is beyond me. Not only you pay more for the product (car), but your choices are so restricted on a $30,000 average transaction purchase that it makes me want to take a baseball bat to potato chips shelf in the supermarket. Really? You need more choices for sh|t that costs 99c than something that costs $30,000? Insanity.


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## Keyser Soze (Oct 24, 2003)

$1m is a infinitesimal rounding error for BMW AG - if there was demand they'd bring them there's not so they don't. Nobody wants MT's in their F-150's and Silverado's now either.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Keyser Soze said:


> $1m is a infinitesimal rounding error for BMW AG


BMW Q1 2013 Financials:

Revenue from Automotive €15,907 Million (Q1 2013 set a new record for Q1 volume)

Before tax profit was €1,516 Million.

Net after tax profit from all of BMW €1,312 Million.


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

Keyser Soze said:


> $1m is a infinitesimal rounding error for BMW AG - if there was demand they'd bring them there's not so they don't.


No, it isn't. Every model has to have a viable business case, on its own. If the projected sales and/or benefits to the brand do not justify the costs to bring a particular drivetrain to a market, it does not happen. Demand is only part of the equation.


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## Dougly503 (Sep 24, 2012)

I drive a manual and because of it I cant text, shift, change songs and drink coffee at the same time=/


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## drrpm (Feb 9, 2010)

I drive a manual, so do my wife and the 2 daughters old enough to drive. Out of my 5 vehicles only the Odyssey has an automatic. We got a great deal on a Honda Accord with a manual last fall since it had been on the dealer's lot for months.


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## ///Mariani (May 13, 2012)

Im 23 and i prefer a manual. But I diddnt learn on one. Cars are a really big deal in my area, most guys around my age are droppin big bucks on sports cars and their reasoning is that if it doesnt have a stick in it, it isnt a real sports car, not worth having. So I dont think the problem will be finding young buyers, depending on the area i guess, for now. A lot of guys that I know that dont know their way around a manual really want to learn, and ive taught a few. I think when people have no interest in cars altogether, is when the MT is in danger. 

You need enthusiasts to keep the old stuff that requires extra work alive. Otherwise, to someone who doesn't care, it makes more sense to go for a safe and modest Kia.


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## funkle (Mar 5, 2008)

I've always been a manual RWD guy, but what with a bad past economy, wife, kid & city life, I've somehow ended up with a garage full of FWD automatics  As a result, I think about the auto vs manual thing a lot and miss it every time I drive. I manually activate shifts in the Mini much of the time on the road, and when I autocross it. I have grown more comfortable with it, but still really miss having manual/RWD. The Mini Auto shifts pretty quickly, isn't too slushy, but still decides to shift on it's own, even in manual mode, and has that vague automatic feel to it. The one benefit I've come to like is being able to keep both hands on the wheel. I'm able to be smoother & more in control in nearly all driving situations, whether it's racing or around town. I think a good sequential system can be wonderful, and could easily see myself going to a DCT. I feel it give all the control I could ever need - they are tight & snappy, faster than manual, and both hands on the wheel. But there is something magical about shifting a great car with a manual transmission.


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## Dan_335i (Jun 26, 2013)

i have a auto but i dont like driving stick but i can if i wanted to
i would buy a sports car with MT for the summer time im 20


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## slave2gravity (Mar 28, 2013)

At age 30 I bought my first automatic car - a Subaru Outback 3.6R. My wife and I are having a baby and we needed a bigger family car than our WRX. Unfortunately Subaru only offers a MT on the 4-cylinder model, which was a non-starter with me (too anemic). At least 2/3 cars in our house have a proper manual...

As for its future, I'd bet MTs are gone in 15 years. There certainly are few incentives for manufacturers to continue developing them, so at some point they'll be obsolete compared to the rest
Of the drivetrain.

I forget which senior Porsche engineer said it, but with respects to the 918 they said 'no way' to the manual b/c it simply doesn't shift as fast. Ferrari no longer offers a manual (god I loved those gated shifters), neither does McClaren or Lambo (I think). It seems the writings on the wall.

Sadly, there are also very few, in any, modern day classics - the types of cars that will still be relevant and sought after in the future, which doesn't bode well for the manual's longevity.


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## Mr.750 (Jul 15, 2012)

18 and I just got a Boxster manual and I love it. Most of my friends have or know how to drive manuals also.. I think it helps we are from a rural farm area and grew up on farms with manual tractors and skidloaders and working equipment.. I have to say they can be very difficult to learn at first but its so much more fun than an AT


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

I believe they will still be available for quite a while, but in ever smaller numbers for a niche buyer (including a number of people who've posted in this thread apparently.  Hasn't Ferrari abandoned the manual? When I bought my new Boxster a year ago, the sales guy remarked that mine was the first manual they had sold and now Porsche is selling some 911 models with PDK only.

Putting the matter in BMW terms, if you sell only a small percentage of cars with manuals, the pattern we are seeing where fewer and fewer models are offered with manual (X3 manual? 6er manual? 528i manual? 328d manual? No!) is a no-brainer, albeit sad to see.


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## imae34driver (Feb 26, 2013)

24 years old and a M/T is the only proper transmission for a BMW.. 


Loving my 6 speed!


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## BDSBMer (Jul 6, 2013)

imae34driver said:


> 24 years and M/T is the only proper transmission for a BMW..
> 
> Loving my 6 speed!


Me2!:thumbup:


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## Mr.750 (Jul 15, 2012)

Does anyone else just freak out when people pull up extremely close behind you when your on a hill? Only downfall..


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## boramkiv (Jan 8, 2011)

Mr.750 said:


> Does anyone else just freak out when people pull up extremely close behind you when your on a hill? Only downfall..


No fear at all. That 2 second hill hold assist is the greatest invention since the brake pedal.


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## Mr.750 (Jul 15, 2012)

boramkiv said:


> No fear at all. That 2 second hill hold assist is the greatest invention since the brake pedal.


Wait.. what is that?


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## boramkiv (Jan 8, 2011)

Mr.750 said:


> Wait.. what is that?


Stopped on a steep hill, clutch in all the way while foot on brake. Completely remove foot off brake pedal with foot still on clutch and the car will stay stationary for roughly 2 seconds giving you enough time to start off without rolling back.
Brilliant idea. No more having to fiddle with the hand brake.

Works in reverse too!


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## Mr.750 (Jul 15, 2012)

boramkiv said:


> Stopped on a steep hill, clutch in all the way while foot on brake. Completely remove foot off brake pedal with foot still on clutch and the car will stay stationary for roughly 2 seconds giving you enough time to start off without rolling back.
> Brilliant idea. No more having to fiddle with the hand brake.


Does that come standard on a car or can you purchase it as an aftermarket add on?


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## boramkiv (Jan 8, 2011)

Mr.750 said:


> Does that come standard on a car or can you purchase it as an aftermarket add on?


I think it's on all modern 5 or 6 MT BMW's. Modern being after the year 2004? I really don't know what year is started, but I have driven a 6MT E90 and it had it also.

It's apparently not new to the automotive world, while BMW gives you about 2 seconds I heard that older Subarus would stay there until you actually set off. With the BMW if you do nothing within that time the car just rolls back as normal, so once you let off the brake you have to set off or brake again.

I don't know if it can be retrofitted or not. Either way it is a nice feature. I don't need it because in my other vehicles I practice my take offs three-pedal-style:thumbup::thumbup:


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## imae34driver (Feb 26, 2013)

Ive never had an issue... I got quick feet


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## BDSBMer (Jul 6, 2013)

Mr.750 said:


> Does anyone else just freak out when people pull up extremely close behind you when your on a hill? Only downfall..


No problem with or without the 2 sec hold feature. Been driving a stick for years!


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## usaret (Feb 8, 2012)

boramkiv said:


> I think it's on all modern 5 or 6 MT BMW's. Modern being after the year 2004? I really don't know what year is started, but I have driven a 6MT E90 and it had it also.
> 
> It's apparently not new to the automotive world, while BMW gives you about 2 seconds I heard that older Subarus would stay there until you actually set off. With the BMW if you do nothing within that time the car just rolls back as normal, so once you let off the brake you have to set off or brake again.
> 
> I don't know if it can be retrofitted or not. Either way it is a nice feature. I don't need it because in my other vehicles I practice my take offs three-pedal-style:thumbup::thumbup:


My '09 E83 X3 has it too. It's pretty slick. :thumbup:


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## usaret (Feb 8, 2012)

Our salesman tired to talk me out of ordering ours with a manual. He said they're hard to sell so you get less at trade-in. As you can see I ignored him. :thumbup:


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## mb67 (Aug 12, 2013)

While my 2008 E93 is auto, I've had MT's before this. In fact, my '04 Corolla that I sold before moving back to the mainland was a MT so it's not impossible to find buyers that are willing to get MT's. Oh, and I'm 45...


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## boramkiv (Jan 8, 2011)

usaret said:


> Our salesman tired to talk me out of ordering ours with a manual. He said they're hard to sell so you get less at trade-in. As you can see I ignored him. :thumbup:


Lol, that's funny. Its true though. When we bought our E60 it was the one option the wife an I had to have.
You wouldn't believe how many people think its uber cool that this car is a proper manual. We plan on keeping it for a while, and we knew all along it would be a hard sale, but we enjoy every bit of it. Now I don't think we will ever get rid of it.

I drive a manual because it allows me to use all my limbs, and ill continue to do so as long as I can.


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## imae34driver (Feb 26, 2013)

I feel bad for people who choose there car on how easy to get rid of it, it is...

May as well buy a used car thats basically stopped depreciating


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## babikes (Apr 14, 2008)

boramkiv said:


> I think it's on all modern 5 or 6 MT BMW's. Modern being after the year 2004? I really don't know what year is started, but I have driven a 6MT E90 and it had it also.
> 
> It's apparently not new to the automotive world, while BMW gives you about 2 seconds I heard that older Subarus would stay there until you actually set off. With the BMW if you do nothing within that time the car just rolls back as normal, so once you let off the brake you have to set off or brake again.
> 
> I don't know if it can be retrofitted or not. Either way it is a nice feature. I don't need it because in my other vehicles I practice my take offs three-pedal-style:thumbup::thumbup:


dunno if I have it in my 2011 M3 6MT. We don't have hills in FL!


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## usaret (Feb 8, 2012)

boramkiv said:


> Lol, that's funny. Its true though. When we bought our E60 it was the one option the wife an I had to have.
> You wouldn't believe how many people think its uber cool that this car is a proper manual. We plan on keeping it for a while, and we knew all along it would be a hard sale, but we enjoy every bit of it. Now I don't think we will ever get rid of it.
> 
> I drive a manual because it allows me to use all my limbs, and ill continue to do so as long as I can.


I don't see us ever getting rid of ours. I'm going to try to follow in Murray Fowler's footsteps.






Sadly he passed away this year:

http://www.bmwcca.org/node/5364


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## imae34driver (Feb 26, 2013)

Sounds like a cool wife..

Im just to scared to teach mine, in my car!


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## whersdadipstick (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't think the future for manuals is good. I would bet that only a few "sports" cars in a few years.
It's sad. I'm old enough to remember that seeing a pick-up with an automatic was rare, that full size Chevies, Pontiacs, Olds and even Buicks (late 60's) came with sticks. I go to an occasional car show, if I see a neat car the first thing I do is look inside, if its an auto it just lost my interest. I just walk away. I see small econo boxes with auto's, puzzles me, why kill the fuel economy and ruin the fun of driving it.

A manual box is the soul of a car. 
It lets you control the heart of the car.

A manual gives you more control and lets you rock a car in slippery condition to get moving again. Drop your auto in drive an take your foot of the brake and the tire is spinning without even touching the gas.

I don't care what the experts say, a manual is better on gas. I compared my BMW and my previous car to similar cars with auto's. I always get better milage.

Better be prepared to replace your brakes more often with an auto than with a manual under the same driving styles. 

Ever have a battery go away without enough power to turn the starter? Your screwed with an auto, but with a stick you can kick start it and your off.

Nowadays with fewer and fewer people even able to drive a stick its a theft deterrent to an ignorant theft..

Far as I'm concerned there is no advantage to an auto. Unless your lazy or uncoordinated.


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## usaret (Feb 8, 2012)

whersdadipstick said:


> I don't think the future for manuals is good. I would bet that only a few "sports" cars in a few years.
> It's sad. I'm old enough to remember that seeing a pick-up with an automatic was rare, that full size Chevies, Pontiacs, Olds and even Buicks (late 60's) came with sticks. I go to an occasional car show, if I see a neat car the first thing I do is look inside, if its an auto it just lost my interest. I just walk away. I see small econo boxes with auto's, puzzles me, why kill the fuel economy and ruin the fun of driving it.
> 
> A manual box is the soul of a car.
> ...


Manuals also never do absolutely *nothing* when you put them in gear. They might get hard to shift or pop out of a certain gear but they never just "lay down on you" and leave you stranded like an automatic can do. Even the simple ones of old were not problem free. The modulator valve on our 1969 Oldsmobile 98 blew out on a winter road trip from NC to NY many years ago. It was on a cold, snowy, Sunday, and it was not fun at all.


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## Keyser Soze (Oct 24, 2003)

whersdadipstick said:


> I don't think the future for manuals is good. I would bet that only a few "sports" cars in a few years.
> It's sad. I'm old enough to remember that seeing a pick-up with an automatic was rare, that full size Chevies, Pontiacs, Olds and even Buicks (late 60's) came with sticks. I go to an occasional car show, if I see a neat car the first thing I do is look inside, if its an auto it just lost my interest. I just walk away. I see small econo boxes with auto's, puzzles me, why kill the fuel economy and ruin the fun of driving it.
> 
> A manual box is the soul of a car.
> ...


All this was true until about 4 years ago. I still say that as of now, the MT only "works" - and by mean "works" I mean feels like it's adding anything to the driving experience and control - in the smaller, lighter BMW's...would anyone seriously want a 200 inch long, 4,600 lb 7 series with a 6 speed now? Long term maintenance and ownership wise, sure the MT is gonna be cheaper but the vast majority of 'Festers are doing 3 year lease turn and burn and don't care.

It's not the best option IMO for the 535 either as I've found out as well. It's not that it's bad it's just that the car is so quiet and isolated that it just isn't "fun" and seems horribly out of place in what is now tilted towards the luxury car class.


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## Alex_Lounsbury (Apr 18, 2008)

I needed a new econobox for work, I put on a lot of miles. 22 years old, bought a 2013 Hyundai Accent in M/T. They didn't have one on the mega lot, had to ship one from CA to UT. Looked like it had sat on the lot for a long time, leaves stuffed in the hood and trunk. I do think the market will continue to shrink, but there will always be a small market that demands M/T.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

At this point I do not think there is any longer a technical or performance advantage to MTs as paddle shifted transmissions whether they are DCT or the best of the "conventional" planetary geared ATs have gotten so good. The makers of the highest performance cars seem to agree as companies like Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and Bugatti either do not offer MTs or are moving away from them. Additionally race cars like F1, ALMS, Grand Am, etc. are almost all paddle shifted and most drivers left foot brake. I have found that the brake pedals in most AT road cars are not positioned properly for comfortable left foot braking. Once you master left foot braking it does make it easier to control the contact patches and weight distribution of the car and to trail brake, etc.

To compare a modern AT with 6 to 8 speeds and torque converter lockup to the 2 speed "Slushboxes" of years ago is like comparing a modern 6 speed MT to a "three on the tree" MT with no synchro in first gear of the same era.

That being said I won't deny that a perfectly executed heel and toe double clutch downshift is very satisfying and a lot of fun and I understand why some people are MT die hards but I also realize that much as I enjoy MTs they no longer have any particular advantage other than the fun factor which I do not dispute.

In manual mode DCTs and the best of the ATs shift quickly and the driver has control of the gear choices unless he tries to do something really stupid.
What is amazing is how some of the newer transmissions always seem to be in the right gear in fully automatic mode.

I drove MTs exclusively for years but recently my road cars have been ATs. As was stated a few posts back an MT is rather out of place in a 7 Series and although my 335i is a Steptronic I think an MT would also be a good fit.
The cars that i drive on the track either have MTs or sequential racing transmissions (with a third pedal).
I do think that any advanced driving course should include teaching how to drive an MT as that is a great tool to teach what the purpose of a transmission is.

I also have found that many MT drivers are not all that adept at it. They can get through the gears but are not all that good at heel and toe, double clutch, etc.
This included me for many years until I started with the Skip Barber Racing School but even before I became more skilled I enjoyed my MT cars.


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## Jp12687 (Aug 11, 2013)

Tom K. said:


> At least my Boxster is still available with a 6 speed - although more folks are springing for the $3,200 PDK...
> 
> Tom


I have a Boxster and wouldnt think of getting it with an AT. It cuts the balls off that car. It makes me angry when I see people who buy that car with an AT. It's just wrong.


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## Tom K. (May 10, 2008)

Jp12687 said:


> I have a Boxster and wouldnt think of getting it with an AT. It cuts the balls off that car. It makes me angry when I see people who buy that car with an AT. It's just wrong.


While the Porsche PDK is a tremendous gearbox for an AT and does improve acceleration by a 2/10" or so, I can't see the advantage for street use.

But it doesn't anger me as I feel that even the third pedal challenged folk should be able to drive the car of their choice - be it a Porsche, M3, etc. What bothers me is that more and more Porsche and BMW models are no longer available with MT.

Tom


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## Jp12687 (Aug 11, 2013)

Tom K. said:


> While the Porsche PDK is a tremendous gearbox for an AT and does improve acceleration by a 2/10" or so, I can't see the advantage for street use.
> 
> But it doesn't anger me as I feel that even the third pedal challenged folk should be able to drive the car of their choice - be it a Porsche, M3, etc. What bothers me is that more and more Porsche and BMW models are no longer available with MT.
> 
> Tom


I can see that-- my thing is (and i'm from a much younger generation) i think everyone should know how to drive an MT.


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## imae34driver (Feb 26, 2013)

I think if it was really the car of choice you should learn to drive it with a real trans..

I dont think we should make our sports/super cars so dossle any girl scout can drive it.. I dont want that..

I want my fast car to intimidate the inexperianced, damand my consintration, and force me to respect it..


Not become some overy lush 180 mph mobile phone for wifes to drive while they do there make up



Automatic trans are for those who are towing large items and those who are lilttle girls..

And, "i dont see no tow hitch!!!"


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## ZooMigo (Aug 7, 2013)

46 and I just bought my 2014 Z4 with the manual. Been driving a clutch since 85 and wouldnt consider ordering a vehicle without one. I know a lot of people say that auto is the way of the future, but I truly believe there will always be those who will specifically search out a manual.


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## r33p04s (Jan 28, 2012)

Manual is far from the greatest and will concede to the dct for pure speed...hell I'll concede to a 95 accord for bumper to bumper traffic but for 'daily get in my car and not hate myself from boredom while keeping me engaged and not on my phone' I will and or the foreseeable future will continue to choose M/T

26

And yes they are quickly making an exit stage left, thank god for used cars and new parts


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

r33p04s said:


> Manual is far from the greatest and will concede to the dct for pure speed...hell I'll concede to a 95 accord for bumper to bumper traffic but for 'daily get in my car and not hate myself from boredom while keeping me engaged and not on my phone' I will and or the foreseeable future will continue to choose M/T
> 
> 26
> 
> ...


I maintain that it should not require an MT to keep you concentrated on driving.
When cruising on Interstates, the most frequent venue for "Highway Hypnosis" it is easily possible to cruise in top gear without having to shift for very long periods of time. I frequently drive across route 75 "Alligator Alley" in Florida. That road is almost perfectly straight and flat all of the way accross the state. You can usually maintain a steady speed, rarely shift gears and barely have to steer but you still have to pay attention.

CA

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## williakz (Apr 14, 2013)

I always count gators; keeps you from daydreaming.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

One positive of owning a manual tranny car in a world where fewer people can drive them is the comfort of knowing your car is practically theft proof 

Not too many car thieves understand the "old school" tech, apparently.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

Mark K said:


> First let me state something that you all are missing. Let me state it in bold.
> 
> *The only reason there is a danger of MT extinction are bureaucretins you voted into their Washington seats. No, it's not about efficiency, it is about federalization rules.* The most idiotic set of rules known to modern man.
> 
> ...


Are you seriously suggesting Washington is the reason more and more people want to drive cars with automatic transmissions?

Two things: That is funny and you don't understand Americans


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

Jp12687 said:


> I have a Boxster and wouldnt think of getting it with an AT. It cuts the balls off that car. It makes me angry when I see people who buy that car with an AT. It's just wrong.


I agree, but the inverse of that, to me, is people converting their old 7 series to manual transmissions - to me a luxury car should provide a more "automated" driving experience.

IMO, my car, a 3 series ZHP is about the largest car with an engine in which a manual is still fun - it's (only) 235 HP, so you can get the most out of it with the 6 speed - drive it in third, for example, up a sweeping right hand hill and it just feels great.

I've driven Vettes, on the other hand, with so much power that a manual just doesn't feel right - you end up around town driving in 2nd gear much of the time.

The best cars for manual transmissions? Small, four cylinder sports cars - Mazda Miatas, MGB's, Triumphs etc ... most folks will never experience the pure joy of a two seater, top down, rowing a high strung engine through the gears - it's pure nirvana, and an experience that's almost completely going away.

To all my fester friends, drive a Miata today, it may be the end of en era.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

MT= more fun. AT/DCT= what the future holds. N4S


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

EdCT said:


> I agree, but the inverse of that, to me, is people converting their old 7 series to manual transmissions - to me a luxury car should provide a more "automated" driving experience.
> 
> IMO, my car, a 3 series ZHP is about the largest car with an engine in which a manual is still fun - it's (only) 235 HP, so you can get the most out of it with the 6 speed - drive it in third, for example, up a sweeping right hand hill and it just feels great.
> 
> ...


Yep.

I remember when I bought my 325i. Back then it was a little bigger ticket item for us than it would be if we were making the decision today. At the time, however, it was more horsepower than anything I'd ever owned, and the stick just feels great in it. In retrospect I sometimes wish I'd gotten the 330i e46 (as you said, now considered to still be low HP by some of today's standards).

There's just something to be said about 'needing' to have a manual and to go through the gears at optimal RPM in order to get the most performance out of your car that makes for such a fun driving experience, vs having such a big and torque-y engine that it simply doesn't matter. Obviously there's such a thing as under-powered, but that has as much to do with excess weight as anything else. IMHO neither of the e46 options that were available in America were underpowered.

Yeah, I'm not sure what I'd do driving something like a 'vette. I'd probably spend end up skipping gears, like start in 2nd, go to 4th, etc. I don't know - never driven anything so powerful.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

Rob325_in_AZ said:


> Yep.
> 
> I remember when I bought my 325i. Back then it was a little bigger ticket item for us than it would be if we were making the decision today. At the time, however, it was more horsepower than anything I'd ever owned, and the stick just feels great in it. In retrospect I sometimes wish I'd gotten the 330i e46 (as you said, now considered to still be low HP by some of today's standards).
> 
> ...


There's a great scene in "The Graduate" (a film some of us of a certain age can relate to) where Dustin Hoffman is driving his Alfa Romeo on the freeway, at high speed with that glorious Alfa motor singing, he's rowing through the gears, his trench coat is flapping, he's chasing down a woman ... oh man.


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## r33p04s (Jan 28, 2012)

captainaudio said:


> I maintain that it should not require an MT to keep you concentrated on driving.
> When cruising on Interstates, the most frequent venue for "Highway Hypnosis" it is easily possible to cruise in top gear without having to shift for very long periods of time. I frequently drive across route 75 "Alligator Alley" in Florida. That road is almost perfectly straight and flat all of the way accross the state. You can usually maintain a steady speed, rarely shift gears and barely have to steer but you still have to pay attention.
> 
> CA
> ...


The boredom was in reference to typical shorter commutes. On the longer drives like you describe I derive my entertainment from maintaining the highest speed possible while trying to maximizing mileage. Especially on FL's notoriously straight highway system.

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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

EdCT said:


> Are you seriously suggesting Washington is the reason more and more people want to drive cars with automatic transmissions?
> 
> Two things: That is funny and you don't understand Americans


No, Washington is not the reason that more people "want" to drive automatic, Washington is the reason for the demise of MT. If you think MT will disappear from US market because there will be no people left who want to drive them, then you didn't understand where the problem is.

As I said in the post you were quoting, you could have bought AT in Europe in 1985 without a problem when WAY less than 1% of cars were sold with AT. The difference is that local organized crime enterprises (a.k.a. governments) in Europe don't ask for multi-million dollar vig in order to allow you to sell two IDENTICAL cars where the only difference is AT vs MT.

I bought Golf TDI because BMW would not sell me 328d with MT. THe only reason BMW would not sell me 328d with MT is the Tony Soprano equivalent in Washington demanding multi-million dollar vig/extortion from BMW in order to give them permission to sell 328d MT after they already paid multi-million dollar vig to sell 328d AT.

So, yes, BMW, Audi, MB, VW, Toyota, Honda, Subaru ... will continue to produce cars with MT long after they won't sell any to Americans - thank your Government for that. I hope you will thank them with an ass-kick out of the door comes November.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

Mark K said:


> No, Washington is not the reason that more people "want" to drive automatic, Washington is the reason for the demise of MT. If you think MT will disappear from US market because there will be no people left who want to drive them, then you didn't understand where the problem is.
> 
> As I said in the post you were quoting, you could have bought AT in Europe in 1985 without a problem when WAY less than 1% of cars were sold with AT. The difference is that local organized crime enterprises (a.k.a. governments) in Europe don't ask for multi-million dollar vig in order to allow you to sell two IDENTICAL cars where the only difference is AT vs MT.
> 
> ...


What's a"vig"?

I didn't know BMW sold a 328 diesel with any kind of transmission in the USA - there is a 328d on the way, but it isn't out yet.

BMW did sell a 330 D in the states, with an AT - the reason BMW gave was the torque of the motor was more than the current manuals could handle.

BTW, i had no trouble purchasing my 330i ZHP with a manual, nor is there difficult with purchasing current 328's 335i's and Honda Accords with manuals ... VW, Audi, Merc, Subie, Toyota all make manuals available here in the states on certain models.

I still don't see where the government fits in :dunno:

The reason manuals are disappearing here in the states is Americans don't want them. It's really that simple - they don't sell. Unless you can show a correlation (other than your own suspicion) of government interference as a cause of the europeans and japanese not wanting to sell manuals to americans - you have no case.


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## Boyd9009 (Jul 8, 2013)

I have a 2013 335 convertible 6 speed manual that I love. Lease expires next year and the 435 convertible does not offer a manual  I am prob going to "downsize" to the m235 convertible since it offers a stick!!


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

EdCT said:


> What's a"vig"?


Short for _vigorish_. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vigorish

Will the DCT transmissions bring renewed interest in 'manual' transmissions?


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## xtougher (Jul 9, 2015)

I'm 32, drove a Civic 5MT, currently drive a TSX 6MT, and am waiting for a 340i 6MT hopefully by the end of the week (CARB/EPA hold).

I know everyone has different opinions on all of these things, from transmission choice, to color choice, to manufacturers, etc...

My wife approved an "upgrade" for the next car because they might not make manual transmissions by the time we're in the market for my next car.

I certainly hope that's not true, but as I kept an eye on the market for the last few years just anticipating changing vehicles, it really seemed that market was shrinking every year.

I will be the first to admit that I'm not a track guy or anything, but would only want to drive manuals for the pure enjoyment. Many of you all may argue I don't even know the joy of driving a manual since I haven't been to any driving schools, etc. but I can say I prefer them anyway. I do plan on "learning" how to drive someday.


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## sixpot_simon (Sep 13, 2013)

EdCT said:


> One positive of owning a manual tranny car in a world where fewer people can drive them is the comfort of knowing your car is practically theft proof
> 
> Not too many car thieves understand the "old school" tech, apparently.


Yep, this lady benefited from the bonus "security feature" of a manual gearbox 
www.smh.com.au/nsw/ashfield-alleged-carjacking-foiled-thanks-to-manual-gears-20170619-gwufgo.html


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

BMW should bring back manual chokes, carburetors and distributors - along with manual transmissions.


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## marcozandrini (Feb 13, 2014)

Only about 5% of BMWs sold in the US have a manual tranny. I foresee the time when bmw will no longer sell a car with an MT.


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## marcozandrini (Feb 13, 2014)

southcoastguy said:


> BMW should bring back manual chokes, carburetors and distributors - along with manual transmissions.


An no synchronization!


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