# Heart tells me BMW 3 series but brain tells me....



## JRuiz (Sep 19, 2004)

Hello Guys- I am planning to purchase a new vehicle fairly soon but I'm having a hard time choosing between the 325i and an Acura TL. My brain tells me to go with the Acura TL but my heart tells me the 325i. I have test driven both vehicles and sure the Acura has a little more room and more standard options but I keep coming back to the 325i. Did anyone of you guys struggle with your decision? Any advise or experiences would be appreciated. :dunno:


----------



## gr8330 (Mar 31, 2002)

Sold a BMW and bought a TLS. Kept the TLS for 18 months and sold it. I'm back in a BMW. The TLS was pretty good but definately not anything like a BMW. Remember before you buy, drive, drive, and drive again. Wish you well with your decision


----------



## eksath (Apr 4, 2003)

JRuiz said:


> Hello Guys- I am planning to purchase a new vehicle fairly soon but I'm having a hard time choosing between the 325i and an Acura TL. My brain tells me to go with the Acura TL but my heart tells me the 325i. I have test driven both vehicles and sure the Acura has a little more room and more standard options but I keep coming back to the 325i. Did anyone of you guys struggle with your decision? Any advise or experiences would be appreciated. :dunno:


5 Hondas later...got a BMW...will never go back. You have to to answer the question for yourself....are you a car driver or an car enthusiast......


----------



## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

Yeah drive the 2. TL is a very nice car - don't get me wrong - but the driving experience isn't even close. If you really are into the joy of driving versus just cruising around and looking good - go the Bimmer. The TL has many faults when it comes to enthusiast driving IMO....


----------



## Mantis (Sep 7, 2004)

Yes Yes Yes another looker at the TL.I love that car.It's so nice and the price is very good for what you get.

The 325i is also very nice and a differnt car.I perfer the 330i but money here is closer with the 325i and I see why your looking there.

BMW make road cars.Acura makes nice cars.Acura will last as the BMW will.I don't know which would outlast the other as Japan and Germany build excellent cars.

This will have to come down to a long road test.Forget about the looks and the names and drive.The BMW in my opnion drives much better then the TL.The TL looks as good if not in some ways better then the BMW.But all and all you have to live with this car for however long your planning on owning it.

Tuff choice but I feel Germany is in your near future....engineering that is.


----------



## JCsE46 (Jun 24, 2004)

Just go on what your Heart tells you because your heart will keep on coming back at you and make you will feel regretful that you should bought a BMW instead.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

*hmm*

this is a tough one... the TL really is a nice car and a great value. i never test drove it, but here is my 2 cents. to put things in perspective, i used to be (and still am to an extent) a big Honda fan... i swore i would never buy a bimmer (i hated the yuppie image for years) and thought i would go Japanese for life. but one test drive in a 323Ci did it for me, and 4 years later my first car became a 325i.

if you want a great nav system; a roomy interior/trunk; a super powerful engine; edgy, racy styling; and/or completely loaded car for the money, the TL is the way to go. BMW nav is mediocre and pricey, the interior is quite a bit narrower than the TL, there isn't much storage space inside (bins and pockets are all small), and the trunk is pretty tiny. i love my 325i and i think it's a perfectly-sized car for up to 4 passengers of average height, but the lack of cargo space has been a problem for me at times. the V-6 in the TL is a beast and the car is seriously fast. i also think it's a good looking car, though it's not quite my cup of tea - it strikes me as more racy than elegant. i do like that the TL comes completely loaded (except for nav), it really simplifies purchasing - nav or no nav and what color do you want, that's it. getting a 3 equipped the way you want it can be a pain.

if you want european prestige, sophistication and styling; superbly balanced handling combined with a *very* smooth, comfortable, and quiet ride; a compact but purposeful, driver-oriented cabin; free maintenance for 4 years and a great warranty program; and just the pure satisfaction of owning and driving a BMW, something that is hard to explain til you experience yourself, then the 325i is our answer. the 3 is a gorgeous car however you look at it... it manages to be elegant yet sporty, classic yet contemporary. i can't think of another car in its class that evokes the same sort of positive reaction from so many people... EVERYONE i know thinks it's beautiful, from my conservative old dad to my picky mother to my trendy girlfriend to my car geek guy friends. (of course, as long as YOU like how your car looks that's all that matters, but i think the 3 design has a lot of absolute merit.) the handling and ride balance of the 3 is simply in a class of its own; from what i've heard, no one - TL, G35, A4 - can match it. it's my favorite aspect of my 325i, the ride is as close to perfect as i could imagine. other than the trunk, i think the dimensions of the car are perfect; surprisingly airy and roomy yet tightly-wrapped and easy to park. (incidentally, the turning radius is also very tight; Hondas/Acuras tend to be not so tight.) the BMW maintenance and warranty program is great and you can easily get the car certified and service program extended later. and of course, the pride of owning such a fantastic piece of machinery that does its job so blissfully well is a plus.

for comparison, i did test drive a TSX, which i think is a really good car too, but it was just not the same driving experience as the 325i. it handled well and the engine is wonderful, but i feel like Honda/Acura has lost a little "soul" over the years... the old cars like the early 90's Accords, Integras, Preludes, etc. were nowhere near as refined as the latest models, but they had a certain light, agile feel to them that made them really fun to toss around. they weren't bimmers, but they were great cars in their own right. their latest cars are a lot bigger, heavier, and more isolated... in the pursuit of Lexus they seem to have lost some of the "directness" of the driving experience, everything feels more generic. they are still great cars but i think by moving to global platforms, over-focus-grouping the North American market, maximizing efficiency of production, slicking up their marketing, etc. etc. they have washed out the "flavor" of the cars a bit. unfortunately BMW seems to be moving in the same direction with the latest models, but fortunately you can get a E46 3-series which arguably retains much of the "purity" of the BMW heritage.

anyway, going back to 325i vs. TL, to me the "essential flavors" of the cars are so different, while they are meant to be competitors they cater to very different tastes. the fact that your heart pulls you towards you toward the 325i seems to indicate that you might actually prefer the BMW flavor. in a way i was much the same as you - i looked at less expensive options like TSX, Volvo T40, and even cheaper cars like a Corolla or Mazda3. my mind told me that any of these cars would be perfectly sufficient for my needs, and the TSX in particular i was leaning heavily towards... but my heart was always set on the 3, and i could not be happier with my decision. the car is a dream and i don't regret it one bit.

i agree with everyone else, drive the cars a couple more times and hopefully the decision will become clearer. either way i think you will end up with a great car that you will be very happy with. good luck!

p.s. are you going for stick or auto transmission?

p.p.s. lemme ask you a question... what do you like about the TL? what do you like about the 325i? ok that's two...


----------



## wag-zhp (Apr 8, 2004)

I agree with all of the above. My last car was a '94 Prelude, and we still have a '95 Accord. I test drove the CL type-S and the new TL, they are very nice indeed. I love the way Honda/Acura design and build their cars. They are very reliable and if problems do come up they are easy to maintain and service. The draw back is that unless you get an S2000 or an NSX, they are all front wheel drive. They have done a lot with the FWD platform, but there is no way to over come front end plow when trying to accelerate.

I grew up driving go carts and old american muscle cars and love being able to control a vehicles rotation with the throttle. Unless you mod the suspension to dial in major over steer, that can't be done with FWD.

I also drove just about every car out there that is competing with the 3 series. For me the 330i was the clear choice. 

Is the 3 series right for you? It all depends on what you're looking for, and what your priorities are. If you want speed on a budget, look at the TL, G35, WRX, Evo, Mustang, or even a V6 6MT Accord coupe. (And I'm sure I left a couple out) If you care about style, fit and finish, prestige, razor sharp handling, and don't have to get to 60mph in less than 7 seconds, look at the 325. If you want style, fit and finish, prestige, razor sharp handling, 0 to 60mph in less than 7 seconds, and can afford another $5k, look at the 330. (or look at a pre-owned 330).

But most importantly, test drive each car you're considering. Back to back on the same day if possible. Oh yeah, don't forget to let us know what you end up with, and why.


----------



## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

eksath said:


> 5 Hondas later...got a BMW...will never go back. You have to to answer the question for yourself....are you a car driver or an car enthusiast......


Nice point....OK so bmws have their problems...lower bushings, rotor wear.......but.........they are the ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE.

Make up your mind between buying a car or a tool.


----------



## johnc_22 (Sep 14, 2004)

JRuiz said:


> Hello Guys- I am planning to purchase a new vehicle fairly soon but I'm having a hard time choosing between the 325i and an Acura TL. My brain tells me to go with the Acura TL but my heart tells me the 325i. I have test driven both vehicles and sure the Acura has a little more room and more standard options but I keep coming back to the 325i. Did anyone of you guys struggle with your decision? Any advise or experiences would be appreciated. :dunno:


I'm in the same boat. Have driven a 330i w/premium,sport,steptronic,xenons as well as an auto TL w/o NAV (may or may not get NAV if I go TL). Once I sell my SAAB I believe that those are the 2 cars I'll be choosing between. There are many good cars on the road now making the decision very difficult. For me I'd never buy a BMW close to MSRP (mayby after owning one I would think it's worth it but I'd rather get it at the current model year end pricing as someone who's just testing the waters). Between those two cars I believe that realistically there's probably $5K-$6K drive away difference with current incentives. Both cars will hold their value pretty well with an edge to the BMW. I suspect that over the long term the TL will be more reliable but the BMW will be more durable if well cared for, as most nice cars tend to be. My insurance company quoted me rates within spitting difference of each other for these two cars so that's not a deciding factor (and probably wouldn't be even if there were a vast difference). The TL is probably a faster car but the BMW will outhandle it in the twisties (I'm guessing) with RWD. If I'm driving aggressively it's more likely to be in the mountains than in the city so . . . the BMW wins that one. The BMW comes with a "tag" that may be assigned to you, rightly or wrongly - that's one of the factors hindering my decision. I think the interior styling of the TL might get the nod - it is newer and the Acura designers freely admit their target was a 530i. The TL has a lot more interior room without feeling "large" when you drive it. Larger trunk and more places to stow your stuff inside. TL wins on gadgetry by a long shot. According to the www.acura-tl.com forums the TL develops quite a few rattles after a few thousand miles - my SAAB does this (though it's VERY sport tuned) and it is extremely annoying. I'd be very disappointed dealing with a new car that started rattling early on. You should do your own research on that. On the other hand the BMW felt like a bank vault. I'm sure they *can* rattle but probably are not nearly as prone as the TL.

OK, practicalities aside, the BMW has a more visceral effect on me when I drive it. Hands down. Your subject says it best: hearts says BMW, brain says TL . . .

I'm sure this helped you not a bit but feel good in knowing that you are considering 2 excellent cars and you probably can't go very wrong with either one.

John


----------



## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

The BMW is all about driving pleasure. This is a lasting virtue that is appreciated even after years of ownership.

The TL is about "stuff", toys if you will. You may appreciate these things early on, but the joy fades pretty quickly.

You should buy what inherently feels better from the driver's seat (but that meets your minimum space reqs) and ignore the "stuff".


----------



## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

For me the bottom line with this decision comes down to if I have to drive from point A to point B, which car would I rather make that drive in? For me the clear choice is BMW.

You only go around once... get what you really want.

I was in a similar situation in 1998 and opted for the "reliable" choice and bought a Lexus ES300. As far as smoothness and reliabilty the Lexus was the best car I have ever owned, but B O R I N G.


----------



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Test drive both and come back again. We are looking forward to your second post


----------



## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

From this point forward for me, FWD=no sale.


----------



## chrono111 (Jun 1, 2004)

JRuiz said:


> Hello Guys- I am planning to purchase a new vehicle fairly soon but I'm having a hard time choosing between the 325i and an Acura TL. My brain tells me to go with the Acura TL but my heart tells me the 325i. I have test driven both vehicles and sure the Acura has a little more room and more standard options but I keep coming back to the 325i. Did anyone of you guys struggle with your decision? Any advise or experiences would be appreciated. :dunno:


Like everyone said, what are your priorities? I myself was in the same position as you but I place driving experience as my highest priority. The TL was a very nice car but to me lacked the soul of my ZHP. It wasn't even close. To be honest the TL wasn't even in my top two picks .. the other being the Legacy GT. Obviously the bmw was the better car but I did not know this until I was pressured by my good friend to drive the BMW. If your looking for a nice sedan with standard everything that's fast and reasonably price then hit the TL. If you enjoy pure driving excitement then there is no other choice. You ultimately have to be happy with your choice. Just imagine if you buy the TL .. will you regret not buying the 325i?


----------



## gojira-san (Mar 1, 2004)

Plaz said:


> From this point forward for me, FWD=no sale.


 Agreed. I prefer the RWD characteristics.


----------



## stan1911 (Mar 11, 2004)

This is my BMW story. 
A few vehicles I owned before buying my first BMW were a 76 Toyoto Corolla Wagon, 79 Volvo 244DL, 92 Pontiac Transport minivan, 98 ML320. While the ML was my first SUV and bought for all-weather capability, not for off-roading. A coworker convinced me that a second car for fun and for weekends was what I should look into, so I went looking, not knowing what I was looking for. But after 5 years, the ML320 made me a homebody who started disliking driving. 
I began looking and test drove a couple of vehicles before stumbling on a Motorsports type dealer and his stable of BMW Z3's. A long test drive later, I decided I wanted a BMW Z3 and bought one 2 weeks later. My first convertable, first BMW. The wife and I went out for drives every night after work for months, and drove off to cities and places we never been to before, every weekend. Driving became fun again. The handling my Z3 was far above what I was use to. A 2 seat roadster is about as impractical a vehicle as you can get. And that's just what made it so much fun. 

After a few months, I got rid of the ML320 and got into a 5-series. I was, and still am a BMW admirer. I graduated from transportation that was utilitarian to vehicles that were built to be driven with enthusiam. 

Take that 3-series out for another test drive on roads that are twisty and curvy, not just straight as a rifle shot. See what the rest of us have discovered and gotten in our hearts. 

BMW- driving from the heart.


----------



## JRuiz (Sep 19, 2004)

*Thanks guys..*

Thanks for all the advice and experiences. I think the reason for considering the 2004 Acura TL was because all of the extras, but when I look at the 325i there's just something about the way it stands. Sporty, refined and ready to take on the road. The Acura on the other hand doesn't make me feel this way. They both drive very nice but I'll be honest and say that the looks of my next vehicle is also important to me. I picture the Acura TL in my driveway and it's not the same picture as suppose to the 325i parked on it. Well, anyway thanks for all your help and I will let you guys know what I ended up with. Just waiting on 2 more payments on my current vehicle and than I'll sell it and give it as my down payment.


----------



## guitarman (Mar 29, 2004)

If you get the Acura, I'll bet you'll have that nagging feeling of "should I have gotten the BMW?" If you get the BMW, I doubt you'll second guess yourself. If you've always wanted a BMW and now's the time to get one, then do it. I had wanted a BMW for a long long time, but kept buying cars that were "more practical." A few months ago I decided it was time to get the car I wanted; a German sports sedan. I compared the Mercedes 230K and the BMW 325i. The prices are comparable, and to tell you the truth, I like the looks of the Mercedes better. I almost bought the Mercedes, but then wondered if I would kick myself for not getting the BMW that I had always wanted. I even looked at the Acura, thinking it was more car for the money and more reliable than either the Mercedes or the BMW. I got the BMW because I knew that I would never second guess that decision and wonder, "should I have gotten the Mercedes or Acura instead?" I am very happy with my decision.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

stan1911 said:


> A long test drive later, I decided I wanted a BMW Z3 and bought one 2 weeks later. My first convertable, first BMW. The wife and I went out for drives every night after work for months, and drove off to cities and places we never been to before, every weekend. Driving became fun again.


this is exactly what's happened to me. i live just outside NYC and take public transportation to work every day so the BMW is more of a leisure/weekend/errand car than a commuter. i told my insurance company i'd be driving about 6000 miles a year. i just hit 5 weeks and 1600 miles.. that's on pace for *16,000* miles a year. :yikes: and i don't even have to drive to work! the roads in my area are truly horrible - pot holes, congestion, no open spaces, bad drivers - yet i take every chance i get to hop in the 325i and just DRIVE. i use midnight snack runs and shopping trips as an excuse to go somewhere. hell i don't even mind getting stuck in traffic anymore... i was waiting to get into the Holland Tunnel for over half an hour the other day and i was as carefree as could be. what's great is my gf loves the car too, and i can still have a sporting drive while she falls asleep in the passenger seat. even her mother fell asleep peacefuly in the back seat once while i was having a blast speeding through tunnels in Atlantic City. the balance of handling and ride comfort in these cars is just unreal - i love it, my gf loves it, everyone loves it!

p.s. not sure if you have a significant other to consider, but my gf LOVES the 3... i think she was even crazier about it than i was! i mean i was willing to look at other cars like TSX - i'd ask her "i know it's not a bimmer but this car is ok right? it's comfortable, it's got nav..." "yeah, i guess it's ok...." for her it was basically 3 series or bust... she's usually my better, rational half, but when i was agonizing over my final buying decision, she told me "just get the bimmer already!" it turned out to be the best advice she's ever given me. :thumbup:


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

dorkus said:


> bluedotcom, are you the person who was complaining their ZHP was getting beat off the mark at traffic lights by minvans? did you ever get that diagnosed properly? i remember you said you already made so many visits to the dealer... bummer... i feel for you, but i definitely do not think this is "normal" reliability for this car. from what you said it does sound like you got a lemon.


bluedotcom has the slowest 330ZHP on the planet.


----------



## ClubSpec330i (Oct 22, 2003)

Once you had a taste of VTEC, you would never turn back.

When I sold my 98 Acura Integra GSR for '00 Z3, it was like a dream come true. It was my first real sport car and first BMW. Around the beginning of this year, I drove my friend's S2000 and the VTEC-addict was coming back. At the time, we had traded in Z3 for my wife's 330i SP and I got myself a ZHP late last year. We were expecting our first baby in March. I really want to get my Japanese F1 (Honda S2000) but we have a baby coming. So, I decided to bite the bullet and bought a used '02 S2000 to complement as a present for my baby, what an excuse ha! Now I can enjoy the finest of BMW and Japanese machinery. 

I can bare the thought of playing around with my S2000 but definitely not on my ZHP.

TL is a great car BTW. Good luck.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

ClubSpec330i said:


> Once you had a taste of VTEC, you would never turn back.


honda engines are definitely :thumbup:. just before i drove the 323Ci that stole my heart, i test drove a CL Type-S. unfortunately i can't use a stick, so i had to use the slushbox, but i put it in manual mode. i forgot to shift and hit 7000rpm on a highway onramp - engine just kept going and going until the salesman politely suggested "you may want to shift now..." what a fantastic engine. too bad the chassis couldn't match it, it felt floaty and detached from the road. i left the Acura dealer with just a "nice" impression of the car - the engine blew me away but nothing else about it stood out . the 323Ci, on the other hand, felt like heaven on earth. in the words of my gf, "it's perfect!"

you are very lucky to be able to enjoy two such great cars btw. 330i AND a S2000, definitely the best of both worlds.


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

dorkus said:


> bluedotcom, are you the person who was complaining their ZHP was getting beat off the mark at traffic lights by minvans? did you ever get that diagnosed properly? i remember you said you already made so many visits to the dealer... bummer... i feel for you, but i definitely do not think this is "normal" reliability for this car. from what you said it does sound like you got a lemon.


The week I was going to take my bimmer in, a friend borrowed my protege for 9 days. That sorta snuffed out any chance of getting in for service. I'm still trying to find time as the dealer is in El Cajon and I work in San Marcos - about 35 miles apart.

I'll get it there eventually. Not in much of a hurry as I'm pretty much have gotten used to it...just pining for May 2006 so I can get something else.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> The week I was going to take my bimmer in, a friend borrowed my protege for 9 days. That sorta snuffed out any chance of getting in for service. I'm still trying to find time as the dealer is in El Cajon and I work in San Marcos - about 35 miles apart.
> 
> I'll get it there eventually. Not in much of a hurry as I'm pretty much have gotten used to it...just pining for May 2006 so I can get something else.


won't they give you a loaner?? sheesh. they should be picking up your car and dropping off a loaner for crying out loud. :thumbdwn:

once you get it fixed (if possible), i'm sure you will wish you had gotten it done much sooner!  i have been in my friend's ZHP and it is NOT slow in any sense of the word...


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

dorkus said:


> won't they give you a loaner?? sheesh. they should be picking up your car and dropping off a loaner for crying out loud. :thumbdwn:
> 
> once you get it fixed (if possible), i'm sure you will wish you had gotten it done much sooner!  i have been in my friend's ZHP and it is NOT slow in any sense of the word...


If they gave me a loaner odds are good it'd be either a different brand or a 325i automatic. I'd rather drive my Pro than any of those cars. and especially over any car with an automatic.


----------



## e46shift (Oct 12, 2002)

330i>TL>325i>tsx

if you are looking at auto i wouldn't get a 325i

test drive them again like someone mentioned, best advise really


----------



## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

dorkus said:


> you are very lucky to be able to enjoy two such great cars btw. 330i AND a S2000, definitely the best of both worlds.


Agreed - if I could justify another 2 seater (wife wn't at all have it) - the S2000 would be my choice - absolutly love that car! (though a Lotus Elise might be awfly tempting for a "toy/fun" car!)


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

dorkus said:


> yup, heard the same here. unfortunately, the sheer amount of electronics in modern cars continues to grow, i don't know if the Germans will ever catch up with the Japanese in this game. it seems to be the reason why MB reliability has gone downhill as of late, more computers and electronics than they can handle reliably.


Thats weird I have had quite a few problems but nothing with the electronics unless you consider the engine management to be electronics, that is a software problem.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

Artslinger said:


> Thats weird I have had quite a few problems but nothing with the electronics unless you consider the engine management to be electronics, that is a software problem.


well, electronics, software... i guess that stuff as opposed to mechanical, which is pretty solid on BMWs (except those window regulators, control arms, etc...).

you know, it's not only here that i've heard of BMW problems though. i told my friend i was thinking of getting a BMW, and he said "really? those things have so many problems, my friends are in the shop all the time." he said they were mostly electronics problems. :dunno:


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Torque is overrated, unless you're a streetlight to streetlight racer. With proper shifting and BMW's excellent braking you can get moving around twisty roads pretty quickly. And on the highway few cars at or below the price of a 3 Series can match a BMW for non-busy highend power.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

dorkus said:


> well, electronics, software... i guess that stuff as opposed to mechanical, which is pretty solid on BMWs (except those window regulators, control arms, etc...).
> 
> you know, it's not only here that i've heard of BMW problems though. i told my friend i was thinking of getting a BMW, and he said "really? those things have so many problems, my friends are in the shop all the time." he said they were mostly electronics problems. :dunno:


That is the opposite from the problems I have had, broken trim, water pump, sticky pedal, regulators, belt tensioners, HAVC fan. The only "electronics" problem has been when my engine dies when coming to a stop every couple of months.


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Artslinger said:


> Torque is overrated, unless you're a streetlight to streetlight racer. With proper shifting and BMW's excellent braking you can get moving around twisty roads pretty quickly. And on the highway few cars at or below the price of a 3 Series can match a BMW for non-busy highend power.


Torque is overrated? If you've got the car say at 4500 rpm coming out of a corner the engine with 300 lb-ft is gonna push like a rocket sled compared to the torque on an inline 3.0.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> Torque is overrated? If you've got the car say at 4500 rpm coming out of a corner the engine with 300 lb-ft is gonna push like a rocket sled compared to the torque on an inline 3.0.


Yes. I'd take good brakes and good handling over good torque.


----------



## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> Yes. I'd take good brakes and good handling over good torque.


Well sure who wouldn't want great brakes and handling - but I disagree with you on torque being overated...one thing I just love about the S4 is how - at most anyplace on the rev curve I just flick down the gas and it goes! And I mean it takes off! I can rocket out of corners like you wouldn't believe - it is great great fun - and I can quickly pass without even having to downshift - even in 6th gear... Its a plus for me of course that the S4 brakes and handling really don't lose much at all (if any...but OK I'll concede maybe just a bit) as compared to the 330 ZHP. And actually I find the torque in the ZHP to be fine - I love the engine response - it just requires more working it - and thats nice & fun itself...and it has plenty of get up and go - plenty IMO....but the S4 is just like a rocket at takeoff - and I have to admit - its (to a great degree) that torque thats keeping the grins on my face - and besides it making the S4 one of the very quickest cars on the road - the kick back in the seat is one of the reasons that I'm finding I still prefer (driving) the Audi - all around - as opposed to the 3. Both are fantastic though - don't get me wrong...but I cannot agree about torque being overated - its just awesome IMO.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Roadhawk said:


> Well sure who wouldn't want great brakes and handling - but I disagree with you on torque being overated...one thing I just love about the S4 is how - at most anyplace on the rev curve I just flick down the gas and it goes! And I mean it takes off! I can rocket out of corners like you wouldn't believe - it is great great fun - and I can quickly pass without even having to downshift - even in 6th gear... Its a plus for me of course that the S4 brakes and handling really don't lose much at all (if any...but OK I'll concede maybe just a bit) as compared to the 330 ZHP. And actually I find the torque in the ZHP to be fine - I love the engine response - it just requires more working it - and thats nice & fun itself...and it has plenty of get up and go - plenty IMO....but the S4 is just like a rocket at takeoff - and I have to admit - its (to a great degree) that torque thats keeping the grins on my face - and besides it making the S4 one of the very quickest cars on the road - the kick back in the seat is one of the reasons that I'm finding I still prefer (driving) the Audi - all around - as opposed to the 3. Both are fantastic though - don't get me wrong...but I cannot agree about torque being overated - its just awesome IMO.


Sure gobs of torque is great I'd take a Ferrari any day. My point, if I had choice I'd take the good brakes and the great balance of a 3 Series over a Japanese torquey car. Yes the 3 Series does take some work like proper braking for the corner, downshift and the perfect up shift, the 3 Series is quick if driven right.

I have driven plenty of cars with good torque that have poor brake balance entering a corner and will understeer or hop/oversteer badly in a corner... no thanks.


----------



## Will_325i (Jan 27, 2004)

ff said:


> :stupid:


 :stupid: {this is regarding FWD=no sale}

My dad had his TL S type in the shop for a transmission replacement (under warranty, extended specifically for the trans because of designs problems.)

While his car was in the shop he got a loaner brand new TL. I liked the power compared to my 325 but in no way was it as fun to drive. I attribute most of its handling deficit to FRONT WHEEL DRIVE. Anytime you corner hard the car just wants to plow and plow. Sometimes it's really severe.

I'm RWD for life. (I have no need nor desire for AWD, either)


----------



## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Will_325i said:


> :stupid: {this is regarding FWD=no sale}
> 
> While his car was in the shop he got a loaner brand new TL. I liked the power compared to my 325 but in no way was it as fun to drive. I attribute most of its handling deficit to FRONT WHEEL DRIVE. Anytime you corner hard the car just wants to plow and plow. Sometimes it's really severe.


 Preach it...that thing is scary...and then there's the grannymobile (TM) steering assist.


----------



## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> Sure gobs of torque is great I'd take a Ferrari any day. My point, if I had choice I'd take the good brakes and the great balance of a 3 Series over a Japanese torquey car. Yes the 3 Series does take some work like proper braking for the corner, downshift and the perfect up shift, the 3 Series is quick if driven right.


OK...I hear you - and would generally agree with that (I still don't think torque is overated though...). And totally agree on the 3 series. And what I've learned in the few weeks/month or so owning and driving a BMW is that they are easy to drive fast under all road conditions. BMW really has to be given credit for adhering to the principles of maximizing the total driving experience. The engine on my 3 is very smooth and willing - (revs great!), the steering feel and handling are both great and its so very easy to power on and row through the gears, accelerate, cruise at (any) speed, shift and corner agressively - what a supremely balanced, fun and easy car to drive enthusiastically! - I love it! So yeah I hear you and the balanced handling and brake/acceleration dynamics...the 3 series really has it all! I'm convinced...



Artslinger said:


> I have driven plenty of cars with good torque that have poor brake balance entering a corner and will understeer or hop/oversteer badly in a corner... no thanks.


Well again sure...who wants that? And this is a problem endemic to many American and japanes cars in paticular - much is a FWD problem IMO and a problem of being nose heavy..as well as just not having a chassis that is tuned for spirited driving...and sometimes/often the wheels and tires play into it too. I think that the Acura TL is a very nice car - but it wouldn't be for me (for many reasons) - it definity drives "big" (not a good thing IMO) - and does plow some - even though they clearly have attempted to tune its chassis to minimize this...plus torque steer is atrocious (my Millenia S - with pretty good power & torque - 210/210 - has very little of this - one of the best FWD cars i have ever driven in this regard...great chassis as well...just a bit of body roll - but nice overall..).

With the S4 - even though it is nose heavy and at very high speeds in cetain corners I'll get some plowing/understeering (that ussually a blip of the throttle will corect...) But it basically handles/tracks as well as the ZHP (comparable - better in some cases - perhaps not as well or as easy, anyways, in others - a bit more to handle cornering admittedly - but with the added power/torque and the AWD just grabbing the road and pulling you foreward it really makes up for quite a bit). I've found non lowered S4s (on stock wheels/tires) that I've driven (and been a passenger in) are a bit squishier with quite a bit more roll and more plowing...they are still great fun (as they are not terrible by any means) - and that torquey power is still a hoot...and can pull you through...)...but I can agree with you - I'll take balanced handling over raw straight ahead power nearly any day and in nearly any situation.

When I was younger (high school - back in the 70s) - I always was into (fantasized about/saw myself in... etc) smaller European cars (roadsters & such) and not the big muscle bound American cars that most guys were into at the time. This is why I eventually bought a supercharged MR2...it really had everything IMO - plenty of power and torque - along with the excellent handling in the twisties - particualarly with the soft compound yoko A008s I tread it with....(and can't forget that fun T-top!)...it was the best of both worlds in many ways IMO....and in some ways was certainly one of the most fun and rewarding cars I have ever driven...


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

So I guess we agree. :dunno: 

I have never driven a S4 but from what I have read the S4 may very well be one of the few cars superior to a non-M3 e46 when it comes to the combination of torque, brakes, and handling balance in a four (adult) seater.


----------



## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> So I guess we agree. :dunno:
> 
> I have never driven a S4 but from what I have read the S4 may very well be one of the few cars superior to a non-M3 e46 when it comes to the combination of torque, brakes, and handling balance in a four (adult) seater.


As long as you don't mind the turbo lag...


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

norihaga said:


> As long as you don't mind the turbo lag...


my friend has a S4. he says there is no perceivable turbo lag whatsoever, and he was coming from a (naturally-aspirated) 911 Carerra 4. i'll have to drive it to see for myself sometime.


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

dorkus said:


> my friend has a S4. he says there is no perceivable turbo lag whatsoever, and he was coming from a (naturally-aspirated) 911 Carerra 4. i'll have to drive it to see for myself sometime.


The new S4 is turbo-less, so no lag. If only it were not an audi!


----------



## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

norihaga said:


> As long as you don't mind the turbo lag...


Of course there is some - very slight - turbo lag...but the 2.7 is pretty strong already and its not like you don't move out pretty good - then the turbos spool up...well its a very special thing..... One advantage of the bi-turbo setup is that the turbos are on the small side and work in concert - they spool up very quickly...

I have alwasy admired/respected BMW (like honda) for going the normally aspirated route - and I still do think that this shows real engineering prowess to get what they do out of these cars/engines without resorting to forced induction - but one cannot discount the obvious benefits of those blowers...and say what you will about Audis - but they are very nice cars all around - and the S4 - in whatever guise is a very special (and fun and exciting) vehical...and basically mine gives very little - if anything - to an M3/5 or any other BMW currently in production - as far as I'm concerned....


----------



## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

dorkus said:


> my friend has a S4. he says there is no perceivable turbo lag whatsoever, and he was coming from a (naturally-aspirated) 911 Carerra 4. i'll have to drive it to see for myself sometime.


actually I just blew away a carerra 4 big time this morning - just as a coincidence...he was showing off...and when he pulled out from the light and stepped on it - I did the same right behind him - and blew by/around him pretty good. I also was recently able to keep with a 911 turbo (soft top) who was trying his best to lose me on some twisty back roads. He occasionally could power a few car lengths - but I always managed to quickly real him in...was also able to stay with him on every corner...both of these guys seemed pretty shocked that a wagon could hang with them or in the case of the first guy pass him even under full acceleration...


----------



## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

dorkus said:


> my friend has a S4. he says there is no perceivable turbo lag whatsoever, and he was coming from a (naturally-aspirated) 911 Carerra 4. i'll have to drive it to see for myself sometime.


 Sorry all...I am still thinking previous generation S4, which I have driven. :doh:

The lag on that one is noticeable if you are used to good NA engines, but not too extreme (i.e. not like the Saab Viggen).

I'm sure the current S4 is completely kick-ass...


----------



## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Roadhawk said:


> Of course there is some - very slight - turbo lag...but the 2.7 is pretty strong already and its not like you don't move out pretty good - then the turbos spool up...well its a very special thing..... One advantage of the bi-turbo setup is that the turbos are on the small side and work in concert - they spool up very quickly...


 Sure, I loved the one I drove. Was actually looking at a used one, but they did not have any around my neck of the woods, so I went for the coupe instead. It had lag but at least no DBW nonsense. 

Oh, Avants kick ass... :bow:


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

norihaga said:


> Sorry all...I am still thinking previous generation S4, which I have driven. I'm sure the current S4 is completely kick-ass...


you know, i totally forgot why my friend's S4 doesn't have any turbo lag... it's not turbo. duh. my bad...


----------



## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

norihaga said:


> Sorry all...I am still thinking previous generation S4, which I have driven. :doh:
> 
> The lag on that one is noticeable if you are used to good NA engines, but not too extreme (i.e. not like the Saab Viggen).
> 
> I'm sure the current S4 is completely kick-ass...


Yes - there is a slight lag - so slight a passaenger wouldn't probably even notice - but as the driver you do. Still - even though the turbos do kick in something wicked - its much more linear then say a Saab, Volvo turbo (like the old 850s), and certainly way smoother then the WRX. Its really quite predicdable...I hate that turbo lag feel where there is nothing then it just kicks out - where you find yourself hanging onto the wheel for control...there is none of that in the S4 - sure you can tell its the turbos kicking in - but not nearly as radical as others I've driven. Theres much to be said for that linear feel - I totoally agree...but I don't think the S4 tt is at all nasty in that way...but it kicks out good - certainly - just not jerkey at all - can be well modulated in cornering and such...

And yeah - the avant is pretty special IMO...way cool...


----------



## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Roadhawk said:


> Yes - there is a slight lag - so slight a passaenger wouldn't probably even notice - but as the driver you do. Still - even though the turbos do kick in something wicked - its much more linear then say a Saab, Volvo turbo (like the old 850s), and certainly way smoother then the WRX. Its really quite predicdable...I hate that turbo lag feel where there is nothing then it just kicks out - where you find yourself hanging onto the wheel for control...there is none of that in the S4 - sure you can tell its the turbos kicking in - but not nearly as radical as others I've driven. Theres much to be said for that linear feel - I totoally agree...but I don't think the S4 tt is at all nasty in that way...but it kicks out good - certainly - just not jerkey at all - can be well modulated in cornering and such...
> 
> And yeah - the avant is pretty special IMO...way cool...


Yes, I like the way the turbos come in on the old S4...the thrust sort of ramps in smoothly so you can control it. Nice.

:thumbup:


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

Roadhawk said:


> Still - even though the turbos do kick in something wicked - its much more linear then say a Saab, Volvo turbo (like the old 850s), and certainly way smoother then the WRX.


i've driven only two turbo cars - a '04 Saab 9-5 2.3T, and a '04 Volvo S40 T5. the Saab had quite a bit of lag which made it difficult to drive smoothly in the city, but man when you got out on the highway the extra thrust was great... when you need to pass and kick up from 65mph to 80+, the power just keeps coming and coming... no need to downshift as in my 325i. the Volvo had much less lag and actually felt pretty linear, i thought the engine was pretty decent overall... if you haven't driven something as smooth as the I-6 in the BMWs you probably wouldn't notice the turbo very much.

as for the WRX, i've ridden in my cousins and it is brutal, but there's a lot more at play there than just the turbo lag.


----------



## BarryH (Oct 13, 2003)

I owned two Acura's - a '01 MDX and a '02 TL-S. Previously, I've always driven European cars. It would take a lot to get me back in to an Acura. On the Acura forums you hear "it's as good as a BMW", and "it's the same as a BMW but $8-10K less". BS. Acura is a master of "just enough" engineering. The design, materials, and build quality of the Acura is where the savings is derived. Both my cars had black interiors. By the time their leases were up, different components had faded to about a dozen different colors of gray. They coat their plastic parts instead of dying them all the way through which causes every little knick to show through white. There's already a ton of complaints about the dash fading and the leather deteriorating on the new TL and it's only been out a year. The paint is paper-thin and scratches if you look at it funny. The brakes are undersized and the transmission recall was because it was designed for cheap production not longevity. If you look at the new TL, other than a great V6 engine (that's a bit light on torque considering it's 270HP), every gee-gaw (Bluetooth, talking Navi, DVD-A) is a third party add-on that has nothing to do with the inherent design of the car. They're good cars, not great cars - you get what you pay for.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

BarryH said:


> I owned two Acura's - a '01 MDX and a '02 TL-S. Previously, I've always driven European cars. It would take a lot to get me back in to an Acura. On the Acura forums you hear "it's as good as a BMW", and "it's the same as a BMW but $8-10K less". BS.


i'm not quite as critical, but i basically agree with you. a lot is said about how the TL and TSX material quality is "first rate," but i am starting to get the impression that they are made to look first-rate when you buy the car, but dont' stay that way for very long. the paint, the interior materials, etc. don't quite have the same quality feel of a good European car (or Lexus for that matter). you do get what you pay for... i mean, looking at the specs on a sheet of paper, the TL is an unbelievable value. if you adjust for inflation, it would have cost about $25k just a decade ago... you would have paid that much for a much, much lesser car back then. something has to give somewhere...

p.s. after years of watching Honda Accord interiors go downhill in quality, all the talk of the TSX interior being very upscale got my hopes up. but i was disappointed when i first sat in it - still struck me as cost-cut compared to the old Acuras or even Hondas... way too many painted plastic bits and pieces. my gf (who has impeccable taste  ) also thought the BMW outclassed it in overall quality and design; she thought the Acura looked rather cheap by comparison.


----------



## masud911 (Sep 1, 2004)

don't buy any car until the new e90's come out in about a year or so. Prices will plummet, even if you do not want the new body style, the e46's will be much cheaper.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

masud911 said:


> don't buy any car until the new e90's come out in about a year or so. Prices will plummet, even if you do not want the new body style, the e46's will be much cheaper.


i don't know how much that logic applies. did old 5-series prices plummet when the E60 came out? somehow i doubt it. i'm not sure what you mean by "much cheaper" anyway. i paid $500 below invoice for my '04 325i about a month ago... are you saying i'll be able to get an '05 325i for much below $1k below invoice in several months? besides, i needed a car now...


----------



## masud911 (Sep 1, 2004)

ive noticed a lot more 5 series in the market. Bigger difference in price then last year for 03's. I don't know about where you live but around here when new model years or totally new designs come out they have big clearance on all vehicles.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

masud911 said:


> ive noticed a lot more 5 series in the market. Bigger difference in price then last year for 03's.


for used cars, that will tend to be the case, but i thought we were referring to new ones on dealer lots.



> I don't know about where you live but around here when new model years or totally new designs come out they have big clearance on all vehicles.


i think it depends on the make and model, and obviously location. where i am (NYC area), 3's sell like hotcakes, and there isn't a huge inventory sitting around at any given time. you might be right about getting a break on a lower-demand model though, e.g. a base 325i or something... if it's something high-demand like a 330xi, forget it, they are always on order here. i overheard a sales manager at my dealer the other day telling another salesperson that she had 330xi's come in that week, and by Friday all but one was accounted for.


----------



## PHXEd (Aug 27, 2004)

I am doing a European Delivery on a 2005 330CiC (pick up in Munich 18 Oct - can't wait!) after driving an Acura RSX-S for 3 years & 39000 miles. I can not complain about the quality of the electrical and mechanical components of the RSX-S but had way too many chips in the paint on the hood -- more so than any other car that I've owned. I also was not happy with the way the trunk sealed. And although I enjoyed driving the car (200HP out of 4-cylinders), I knew that it was just an intermediate "vessel" until I could afford the Bimmer that I wanted. So I guess my advice is to go with your heart but set your plan to make it realistic for you.


----------



## JRuiz (Sep 19, 2004)

*Heart talking to the brain..*

Hello guys and thanks for all the great posts. My heart has been talking more and more lately to the brain and brain says yes, yes, yes to the bimmer. Went out for a test drive again yesterday and am convinced to go with it. Like I stated before I needed two more payments on my current vehicle and want to use it as my down payment. I am looking at a 2005 325i silver grey. By the way can anyone tell me if I go with the sports package will the car stand higher or lower than with the standard tires? Just wondering. Also, how close to sticker price should I expect to pay? Again, thanks for all the great responses.

J. Ruiz


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

JRuiz said:


> Went out for a test drive again yesterday and am convinced to go with it.


great! welcome to the club. :thumbup:



> I am looking at a 2005 325i silver grey. By the way can anyone tell me if I go with the sports package will the car stand higher or lower than with the standard tires? Just wondering. Also, how close to sticker price should I expect to pay?


good color choice.  sports package gives you firmer springs and shocks that lower the car by about an inch or so, the wheels are larger but the tires lower profile so the overall diameter of the combo stays the same. how are the roads in your area? if they are ok (i can't imagine they're worse than Pothole Jersey), def. get the SP, it seems expensive at first but it is actually a really good deal... the sport wheel is great, the seats hold you really well in corners and the wheels are a lot nicer than stock. i am regretting i didn't get it a litte. 

not sure what the 2005's are going for, but figure out the options you want, then check what Edmunds.com's "TMV" is... but you can always do better than that, that's just a guideline. certainly never pay MORE than TMV. for comparison, when i bought my '04 about a month ago, the TMV was about $500 above invoice, but i paid $475 below invoice (thanks to the incentives). if there are no incentives on the 2005, i'd say $700 - $1000 above invoice (about $1500 below MSRP) is fair.


----------

