# Europe Road Trip (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France)



## ItaliAlfa (Aug 28, 2011)

Hello Everyone!

I'm new here, and from my username you can see I'm an Alfista, but I always admired BMW's, especially the amazing M3, and finally I have a chance to drive it And I think there's no better to ask for advice than in this great forum!

The purpose of the topic is not a European delivery, but my friend and I are planning a road trip to Europe, similar to the ones posted in this section. We are planning a 2 week trip in the beginning of September, and we got the inspiration for the route from Top Gear episodes (especially 10x01 - Stelvio episode) and from sites from the web.

The start and end point will be Munich, so we planned to go through Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France, and back to Germany within the 2 weeks period.

As I mentioned before, we plan to rent a BMW M3 E92 , we will have it practically for 12 days. We're limited to *3000KM* (250km per day), so we have to take this limitation into consideration. This distance might not seem a lot with such a car, but we plan to combine cool driving roads and and enjoy some attractions along the way.

the current route is like this: 
Google maps link

We'll start in Munich, go west through road 96, and then south to Fussen, and visit the Neuschwanstein Castle and Schlosse Hohenschwangau. Then we head south to Austria - Innsbruck. We'll visit the Krimml waterfalls by going through the Gerlos pass. Then we drive East and drive in the Grossglockner alpine road, and head south to Italy where will drive through some roads in the Dolomiti mountains. We'll stay in Cortina d'Ampezzo, and head west through the Stelvio Pass, then we head to Livigno. We plan to stay in the Bike Park for half a day (depending on weather conditions). Next we go to Davos - and go through the road between the Stelvio pass and Davos (as in the Top Gear episode). From there we go to the S. Bernardino Pass, and we head south to Italy - specifically in the area around Lago maggiore. We plan to visit the islands (Isola Bella especially). From there we head southand watch a soccer match of AC Milan. Then we drive through the Riviera of Liguria, do the Sanremo rally route, and then stay in Nice -France for at least a night. From there we will drive through the Col de turini. After we drive in that great road, we head back to Switzerland through the Mont Blanc tunnel and Great St Bernardo pass. If the weather is good, we might visit Zermatt and and check the Gornergrat Bahn. We then plan to drive through 3 close passes - The Nufenen, the Oberalp and Grimsel passes (as seen in the link above). From there we head to Lucerne, visit the Rhine Falls, and then head back to Munich.

According to the current Google map, the updated overall distance is about 2800KM. This route goes through many highways, and since we won't be driving many KMs a day we will most probably take detours out from the highways, but I guess it won't make it much longer. I think that even if there will be some detours, we can still be in the 3000KM margin we are limited to.

The route is obviously not final, and we're also thinking about things-to-do in each location, so any suggestions are welcome!!!


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## boothguy (Feb 1, 2007)

A very driving-intensive trip. That rental is going to be needing some new tires before the next customer takes it out. I think you'll find the M3 about as different from your Alfas as chalk is from cheese. The one comment I'd make about the Top Gear episode on the Stelvio is that most of the footage/comments seemed to be on the south or Bormio side of the pass. The most photogenic is the north or Davos side, but my take is that portion is so tightly-wound it's not all that much fun to drive.


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## sno_duc (Sep 3, 2008)

We did a european road trip vacation (not ED, next time will be an ED) last summer.
From Davos drop down to St Moritz then drive along Lake Como on your way to Milano.


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

I'm beginning to realize I can't understand these itineraries without at least a tentative schedule. The comment that got me was: "stay in Nice -France for at least a night". Do you really think you could stay for part of a might?

Even for the most fanatical car person, this is too much driving for 12 days. And you're an Alfisti. You'll be near, but miss the Castello Sforzesco in the center of Milan, the only castle I know of with a car badge over the entrance. :angel: Where are you going to stay near Stresa? The boat trip to Isola Bella will use up some of your time. (BTW, make it a multi-island trip and have lunch on Isola Pescatore.)

The bottom line is that while hitting almost every pass imaginable, you'll miss lots of Europe.

(I have some credentials here...I used to be a national officer of the American Lancia Club and club-raced Lancia and Alfas. Also, I drove the Col de Turini when there were real border crossings.)


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## ItaliAlfa (Aug 28, 2011)

Thanks for the replies !



boothguy said:


> A very driving-intensive trip. That rental is going to be needing some new tires before the next customer takes it out. I think you'll find the M3 about as different from your Alfas as chalk is from cheese. The one comment I'd make about the Top Gear episode on the Stelvio is that most of the footage/comments seemed to be on the south or Bormio side of the pass. The most photogenic is the north or Davos side, but my take is that portion is so tightly-wound it's not all that much fun to drive.


I'm sure it's very different than my Alfa. I know that the best part is after passo stelvio, and not the pass itself.



sno_duc said:


> We did a european road trip vacation (not ED, next time will be an ED) last summer.
> From Davos drop down to St Moritz then drive along Lake Como on your way to Milano.


AFAIK, Lago Maggiore is somehow more interesting that Lago Como (although I haven't visited both really). Also throuh the route you're suggesting I'll miss the san Bernardino Pass



b-y said:


> I'm beginning to realize I can't understand these itineraries without at least a tentative schedule. The comment that got me was: "stay in Nice -France for at least a night". Do you really think you could stay for part of a might?
> 
> Even for the most fanatical car person, this is too much driving for 12 days. And you're an Alfisti. You'll be near, but miss the Castello Sforzesco in the center of Milan, the only castle I know of with a car badge over the entrance. :angel: Where are you going to stay near Stresa? The boat trip to Isola Bella will use up some of your time. (BTW, make it a multi-island trip and have lunch on Isola Pescatore.)
> 
> ...


We already have a schedule for each day, but we're changing it a lot, that's why I didn't post it. All this route will be done in 2 weeks time. I agree with you it's maybe too much driving, but again - if we see along the road it's too much, we'll spare some places to see. And that's why i posted this thread. 
regarding Nice - I meant we'll stay of course there for a night, but now the plan is to stay there for 2 nights before heading back to Munich. I hope it's clear now.
Isola Bella - in the current schedule - we plan to stay in the Lago Maggiore from the morning until the afternoon, the soccer game in Milano will be at least at 18:00, so we have to be an hour earlier.

Maybe i didn't mention I'm Italian (although I'm not living in Italy right now), I'm not interested that much in visiting cities etc, but more interested in driving and nature sights. that's why we filled the route with lots of passes.

If you have any practical suggestions - like sparing a place in the route or giving more time to another one - it would be great


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## RichQY (Oct 21, 2007)

ItaliAlfa,

I just came back from my own ED trip and I can offer you some tips.

1. After Neuschwanstein, use this route to hit Innsbruck instead. I felt it was my favorite route during the entire ED trip vs. Stelvio, Furka, Grimsel, St. Mortiz. http://www.ultimatedrives.net/routes/route_detail.php?route_ID=40005. I drove it relatively later that evening around 7- 8 ish, and I only saw 8 cars. 6 of them are on-coming. Watch for cows and bulls on the fast sections though. Book Neuschwanstein a day ahead using the internet, other wise your walk in ticket might be too late such as 5:55 or 6 pm.

2. Food in Tyrol (innsbruck) area, I didn't realize this, but they have a pretty distinctive food culture, with Tyrolean food especially sausages. If you visit a market, you can buy a bunch of Handl Tyrol mountain sausage and Kaminswurst (sp). I bought a couple of packs and I loved them, wish i got more.

3. Livigno has THE CHEAPEST GAS i have ever seen during my entire journey. Super 95 Oct at 1.02 Euro Per liter, vs 1.64-1.68 in Germany 1.54 ish in Italy. Plan your routes to load up gas there. It has some outlets as well, they are packed like crazy, so do expect some traffic.

4. Stelvio is pack with cyclist when we were there, and the roads are too tight to "enjoy". But enjoy the amazing scenary.

5. If you are into food, you should visit Peck deli in Milan, it's right next to the Duomo. Go to the 2nd floor and order "Culatello", the king of ham in Italy, can be served over melons. It was amazing and not importable to the US. So definitely get your fix there. I liked it over Jamon Iberico Bellota (super expensive ham from spain). The Culatello was so tender it straight melts in your mouth. Wine by the class was surprisingly good too. Get some Pistachio cookies for the road as well. Walk by the Duomo for some photos.

6. If you are into shoes, then you should hit the Golden Triangle in Milan, Silvio Lattanzi, Berluti, Santoni, Sutor Mantellassi, A. Testoni. all have stores here. Lattanzi (with hundreds of pair on display, starts at 3K euro to 17K euro) and Santoni right next to each other, Berluti and Sutor across the street. Unfortunately, Santoni, Sutor, were closed for summer O) when i visited and Lattanzi and Berluti are outside of my price range. I bought some Testoni Black Labels at over 50% off. Felt like a good deal.

7. Fox Town Mall has better shopping and deals. It's in Mendrisio Swiss.

8. Traffic!!! There seem to be a lot of traffic between Milan to Como and Switzerland due to customs and road work. We got stuck for a couple of hours in Como. So plan accordingly.

9. Food in Switzerland was very expensive, I would suggest to buy local farmer's bread and cold cuts and picnic around lakes to offset dine in price. I had the best bread and Rauchwurst in Interlaken, 17 euros just for 2 items, but tasted great. My wife and I visited a 1 star michelin in interlaken and that set us back over 300$!! But it was worth it though.

10. Coffee is best in Italy, try some Shakerato if you care for it, it's espresso mixed with flavors and shaken with ice and strained into a martini glass. Instant buzz!!

11. Be aware of high speed cameras...


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## Nefilim (May 17, 2004)

RichQY said:


> ItaliAlfa,
> 
> 8. Traffic!!! There seem to be a lot of traffic between Milan to Como and Switzerland due to customs and road work. We got stuck for a couple of hours in Como. So plan accordingly.


great feedback & tips thanks!

bit concerned about that one, where exactly did you get stuck and which roads did you encounter a lot of traffic?

our longest driving day is the long way from como (lenno) to lauterbrunnen.


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## RichQY (Oct 21, 2007)

1. Highway from Como to Milan, A9. Btw, don't drive top down there, it stinks like ****. We were stuck for over 2 hours due to some accidents, the entire road was shut down both direction with that italian efficiency. Construction on both directions as well. 

2. From Como to Mendrisio/Lugano there was a good wait to clear customs as well. i think the delay is probably around 20 minutes. 

3. In Switzerland on the A2, right before Airolo (exit for Furka pass). there was a stupid tunnel with traffic light on it, over 1 hour of delay, it was f'n retarded, i don't understand why it was slow. The good thing is there is a gas station and rest area at that tunnel. Ironically, 10 miles before that i got caught by a camera at around 100mph in a 120Km.


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## RichQY (Oct 21, 2007)

Nefilim said:


> great feedback & tips thanks!
> 
> bit concerned about that one, where exactly did you get stuck and which roads did you encounter a lot of traffic?
> 
> our longest driving day is the long way from como (lenno) to lauterbrunnen.


I just looked up como to lauterbrenne. That's the same route that I had a lot of trouble with, although I turned off at Furka.


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## Nefilim (May 17, 2004)

RichQY said:


> 1. Highway from Como to Milan, A9. Btw, don't drive top down there, it stinks like ****. We were stuck for over 2 hours due to some accidents, the entire road was shut down both direction with that italian efficiency. Construction on both directions as well.
> 
> 2. From Como to Mendrisio/Lugano there was a good wait to clear customs as well. i think the delay is probably around 20 minutes.
> 
> 3. In Switzerland on the A2, right before Airolo (exit for Furka pass). there was a stupid tunnel with traffic light on it, over 1 hour of delay, it was f'n retarded, i don't understand why it was slow. The good thing is there is a gas station and rest area at that tunnel. Ironically, 10 miles before that i got caught by a camera at around 100mph in a 120Km.


ouch, speed ticket made it over here yet?

i'm actually going up the A13 to drive san bernardino pass, and then taking the 19 across to the 1, bypassing that tunnel airolo. definitely the long, hopefully scenic, route  google estimates at just over 6 hours!

my route


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## ItaliAlfa (Aug 28, 2011)

Thanks for the great tips everybody!!



RichQY said:


> ItaliAlfa,
> 
> 1. After Neuschwanstein, use this route to hit Innsbruck instead. I felt it was my favorite route during the entire ED trip vs. Stelvio, Furka, Grimsel, St. Mortiz. http://www.ultimatedrives.net/routes/route_detail.php?route_ID=40005. I drove it relatively later that evening around 7- 8 ish, and I only saw 8 cars. 6 of them are on-coming. Watch for cows and bulls on the fast sections though. Book Neuschwanstein a day ahead using the internet, other wise your walk in ticket might be too late such as 5:55 or 6 pm.


Very nice, I didn't know about this. I'll book the tickets and drive through that road. BTW, in the website you gave me they say that the road is closed. I can't figure out if that the precise route. Here's my route from Munich to Innsbruck - is it the correct road??
Munich - Innsrbuck



> . Livigno has THE CHEAPEST GAS i have ever seen during my entire journey. Super 95 Oct at 1.02 Euro Per liter, vs 1.64-1.68 in Germany 1.54 ish in Italy. Plan your routes to load up gas there. It has some outlets as well, they are packed like crazy, so do expect some traffic.


the gas price is one of the reasons i wanna go to livigno 



> 4. Stelvio is pack with cyclist when we were there, and the roads are too tight to "enjoy". But enjoy the amazing scenary.


Exactly, the great thing about the Stelvio pass is actually the stupendous scenery rather than the road itself.



> 8. Traffic!!! There seem to be a lot of traffic between Milan to Como and Switzerland due to customs and road work. We got stuck for a couple of hours in Como. So plan accordingly.


Am I missing something here? Why is everyone advising to go to the *Lago di Como* instead of Lago Maggiore? As i stated earlier I haven't been to both yet, but my family said that lago Maggiore is more interesting, especially the islands in the lake itself. Besides, the plan to watch a soccer match was cancelled, so we're planning to detour and avoid getting into Milano completely.

Should I really consider changing the plan to Como???


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## Alfred G (Apr 1, 2007)

ItaliAlfa said:


> Am I missing something here? Why is everyone advising to go to the *Lago di Como* instead of Lago Maggiore? As i stated earlier I haven't been to both yet, but my family said that lago Maggiore is more interesting, especially the islands in the lake itself. Besides, the plan to watch a soccer match was cancelled, so we're planning to detour and avoid getting into Milano completely.
> 
> Should I really consider changing the plan to Como???


I've been to both lakes, and they are both georgeous.

Bellagio on Lake Como is extremely picturesque and has a unique site.

But Lago Maggiore is great, too. And good to see the difference between Switzerland and Italy. North is Swiss, Rest is Italian. Judge yourself.


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## 97X (Sep 19, 2007)

ItaliAlfa said:


> the gas price is one of the reasons i wanna go to livigno


If you're planning on staying in Livigno, I can recommend the Hotel Lac Salin Spa. As far as gas (or anything else) goes, just be aware that the gas stations are not open early in the morning. We left Livigno at about 7am with the hope of filling up the tank on the way out of town...everything was shut tight and wouldn't open until 9am at the earliest.


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## ItaliAlfa (Aug 28, 2011)

Alfred G said:


> I've been to both lakes, and they are both georgeous.
> 
> Bellagio on Lake Como is extremely picturesque and has a unique site.
> 
> But Lago Maggiore is great, too. And good to see the difference between Switzerland and Italy. North is Swiss, Rest is Italian. Judge yourself.


I guess I'll keep the current plan then and go to Lago Maggiore, passing from The Swiss side south to the Italian side. Going to Lago di Como I might face lots of traffic.



97X said:


> If you're planning on staying in Livigno, I can recommend the Hotel Lac Salin Spa. As far as gas (or anything else) goes, just be aware that the gas stations are not open early in the morning. We left Livigno at about 7am with the hope of filling up the tank on the way out of town...everything was shut tight and wouldn't open until 9am at the earliest.


Thanks for the tip about the gas stations. I'll keep that in mind! Regarding the hotel, it's rated is #3 in tripadvisor.com, but I guess it's beyond my budget :angel:


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## RichQY (Oct 21, 2007)

ItaliAlfa said:


> Thanks for the great tips everybody!!
> 
> Very nice, I didn't know about this. I'll book the tickets and drive through that road. BTW, in the website you gave me they say that the road is closed. I can't figure out if that the precise route. Here's my route from Munich to Innsbruck - is it the correct road??
> 
> Should I really consider changing the plan to Como???


That's the correct route, I used way point of Raunchwand to Imst to force that route on google map. But i have found that BMW Nav doesn't plan that route correctly until you get closer, I would recommend bringing google map with you as a back up.

As for como, my wife commented that she'd rather spend more time in Switzerland next time as she likes a secluded getaway.

That being said Como is beautiful, however, the driving is pretty bad. Roads are too narrow, for my Z4 (long hood, bad visibility on my front end). I was definitely outside of my comfort zone for the first 30 minutes. Also, it's a pretty slow drive from Como to the highway. Trivia, one night we were walking by the lake, an Abarth flew by at over 80 mph , about one minute later, we saw a cop chasing in a stupid Panda, but the Abarth was far ahead. :rofl:

If you do go Villa d' Babianello is a must go (via boats otherwise it's a hike). Villa d' Este could be a good destination if you catch one of their events. Millie Miglia etc. Lido di Lenno (right next to Villa Babianello) is a good cove for renting boats and food, low price vs rest of the lake. They have a local market from 9 - 2pm on some days, worth checking out the local scene.


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## RichQY (Oct 21, 2007)

Nefilim said:


> ouch, speed ticket made it over here yet?
> 
> i'm actually going up the A13 to drive san bernardino pass, and then taking the 19 across to the 1, bypassing that tunnel airolo. definitely the long, hopefully scenic, route  google estimates at just over 6 hours!
> 
> my route


Tickets are not here yet, i just got back 2 days ago. I am contemplating on not paying it because they scammed me off on the VAT refunds in Germany... They owe me hundreds of Euros.

It's only fair if i don't pay. hahahaahaha.

Your route looks long!!!!!!!!!! Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ItaliAlfa (Aug 28, 2011)

Thanks for the tips *RichQY* !!

While coming back from Nice to Munich, and after staying a day in Zermatt, I plan to go through some passes in Switzerland which are close together, and I'm willing to split the route to 2 days while sleeping a night in Airolo or somewhere close to that.

Here's the current route : Google Maps

Is it reasonable to be done in 2 days?? Is the order of the passes OK (coming for Zermatt) ?? Am I missing any other good passes in that area??

Thanks


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## RichQY (Oct 21, 2007)

You will be driving a lot more than I did in that region. I only hit Furka and Grimsel, which didn't take long. It was light traffic but with slightly wet condition (so i was going super slow), some parts dont' have barriers!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I think if your trip is pure driving, then you can possibly do it in 1 or 1.5 day. 

Also check Ultimate Drives, i found it to be very helpful. But it seems you got all the good ones covered. GLHF!


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

RichQY said:


> You will be driving a lot more than I did in that region. I only hit Furka and Grimsel, which didn't take long. It was light traffic but with slightly wet condition (so i was going super slow), some parts dont' have barriers!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I think if your trip is pure driving, then you can possibly do it in 1 or 1.5 day.
> 
> Also check Ultimate Drives, i found it to be very helpful. But it seems you got all the good ones covered. GLHF!


Maybe I'm a wimp, but there are times when downshifting and braking get tiresome. IMO you should build in some down time when you are either relaxing or at least driving on plain European through routes. (Even those are exciting for those of us who are used to American roads.)


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## Alfred G (Apr 1, 2007)

Here some pics I took of Lago Maggiore 4 years ago.


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## ItaliAlfa (Aug 28, 2011)

RichQY said:


> You will be driving a lot more than I did in that region. I only hit Furka and Grimsel, which didn't take long. It was light traffic but with slightly wet condition (so i was going super slow), some parts dont' have barriers!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I think if your trip is pure driving, then you can possibly do it in 1 or 1.5 day.
> 
> Also check Ultimate Drives, i found it to be very helpful. But it seems you got all the good ones covered. GLHF!


Yes, it might seem as lots of passes, but it's not that long distance, and I hope we'll be able to do it in 1.5 days. The main issue will be obviously traffic and weather. 
It turns out I have almost all roads in the TOP 10 from Ultimate Drives, so I guess we're ok 



ProRail said:


> Maybe I'm a wimp, but there are times when downshifting and braking get tiresome. IMO you should build in some down time when you are either relaxing or at least driving on plain European through routes. (Even those are exciting for those of us who are used to American roads.)


You're right, that's why we're making it in 2 days, we plan frequent stops to enjoy the scenery and take some rest.

@Alfred G - nice pics!


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