# $2,800 at Lease End - Am I being screwed?



## Fish1 (May 5, 2015)

I posted this i the 5 series forum, but noticed this forum and think it's more appropriate here:

I have a 2015 528i that I leased new from the dealer. This was a 3 year lease at 30K total miles. I went to turn in my lease this evening and was shocked they wanted to hit me with a $2,800 bill for a car in what I consider great shape. To make matters worse, this is the SAME dealership I leased the vehicle from. I would of thought they would be more reasonable to their own lease customer in the hopes of keeping my business.

Here's where the charges are coming from:

1.) My tires were getting old and I knew BMW would hit me with a charge if I didn't replace them. I replaced them with new tires a few weeks ago. I did not know they apparently needed to be "Run Flat" tires. Because these new tires on my car are not "run flat", bmw is hitting me with $300 per tire for a total of $1,200.

2.) They are charging me $400 fr the front bumper. The guy marked down scratches on the passenger side lower portion and scuffs UNDER the front bumper (who the heck doesn't have scuffs under the bumper)??? Wouldn't these be normal wear and tear? pics attached:




3.) There are a couple scrapes/chips in the rear driver side (these are visible, but small). They are charging me $400 for these. I was also assuming these would be normal wear and tear, but admittedly, this was something I thought might come up during the inspection. I just thought It would be close enough to "okay" that I could get by with them. What do you think? Pics attached:




4.) I am being charged $300 for "Curb Rash" on my Drivers side rear tire. Again, wouldn't this fall under normal wear and tear? Pic attached:


$350 for the lease end fee
$147 for over mileage
(Both of these are fine)

Total after the pre-inspection is $2,797

I am going back tomorrow (or friday) to officially turn in the vehicle. This is when they do the final official inspection, but I don't anticipate it being any better as it's the same dealership.

Anyone have experience with unreasonable charges when turning in your BMW lease?

What do you guys think about #1-#4. What would be the best way to dispute these?

Thanks for any help!!!


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## jillyjellyroll (Oct 4, 2005)

can you switch your image hosting to imgur rather than photobucket - they don't show up in your post.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

You are going to get the same answers here as you are getting in the 5 series form. Short answer, there is little to nothing you can do, and they are completely within their rights to charge you for the things you detail.

For everyone else who might be wondering what was already said in the 5 series forum, here is the thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1253246


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

jillyjellyroll said:


> can you switch your image hosting to imgur rather than photobucket - they don't show up in your post.


or Smugmug


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Eagle11 said:


> or Smugmug


Or just directly upload them to Bimmerfest! There is an 'attachment' function that lets you upload images right here, no need to host oddball pictures of scratches and wheels that will never be of use to you on a hosting site....

OP, cannot see the pictures. There are criteria, did you look at the published on-line lease return guidelines? These are pretty detailed. BMWNA has a few videos to walk you through this

Whatever you do, DO NOT turn the car in and think you can argue later, You will be screwed.

Can you get 4 scrap tires? At least you could sell the new tires for a few hundred. Dealer will charge you 1200 AND can turn around and sell the car with those tires on it- claiming "just put new tires on".

Also, you can turn the car it to any BMW dealer....


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Fish1 said:


> Anyone have experience with unreasonable charges when turning in your BMW lease?
> 
> Thanks for any help!!!


Anything can be negotiated. But realities must be factored in. In my experience, there are ways to fix damage done during one's stewardship of a leased car that can minimize the costs -- but the costs don't disappear. I can pay the dealer what they ask, I can negotiate with the dealer for more favorable treatment if the car is one the dealer wants for resale or if I am negotiating with that dealer for another BMW, I can arrange for repairs myself (usually at more favorable cost), I can sell the car myself, or I can buy the car.

The good news is you now know the maximum cost if you just ground the car at the dealer and walk away.

Run flats with minimum required tread depth must be on the car. That's clearly in the lease and, often, it is explained when the car is first delivered. Others have explained how this can be handled. Perhaps the dealer who sold you the tires that are on your car now can work something out with you. You know what BMW will charge on the lease return, so anything you can save from there is a gain.

As others have said, there are less expensive alternatives for correcting paint scratches and wheel rash. Just depends on the value of your time and the quality of workmanship and pricing available from vendors in your location.

As for "unreasonable." Well, the issues require correction. Someone must bear the costs. Some who crow about how the dealer "looked the other way" may be acquiring another BMW and some of the rehab costs may be folded into the new deal. The costs don't disappear.

And, a final thought on "unreasonable." If I go to a BMW Center to buy a used BMW, I will rightly expect no curb rash, correct tires, and all cosmetics repaired to BMW standards. Fair is fair.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Fish1 said:


> 1.) My tires were getting old and I knew BMW would hit me with a charge if I didn't replace them. I replaced them with new tires a few weeks ago. I did not know they apparently needed to be "Run Flat" tires. Because these new tires on my car are not "run flat", bmw is hitting me with $300 per tire for a total of $1,200.
> 
> 2.) They are charging me $400 fr the front bumper. The guy marked down scratches on the passenger side lower portion and scuffs UNDER the front bumper (who the heck doesn't have scuffs under the bumper)???
> 
> ...


#1 and #4:

RFTs are required. Even with the "newly purchased" non-RFTs, the dealer MUST replace them with RFTs to sell as a CPO.

But, they are double dipping on the curb rash. Can't charge $300 twice.

#2 and #3:

Ask them to show you a measurement with a "Ding-o-Meter". They can choose to make it a small incident or a large. Small is usually $75, with Large being $200 or $400 depending on the location.

$350 will get waived or credited on your next contract if you do another BMWFS contract.

Miles are miles.

So I'd have them drop the $300 for curb rash, and see if they can drop the $400 ones to $75.

On #2:

If the "scuffs under the bumper" are along the underside curve, then yes they can charge that. In the future, be sure to angle approach curbs and gas station entrances! And a full bumper charge is $400.


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## KevinMR (Jul 12, 2006)

Not sure why the $300 is a double-charge. The tires need to be replaced and the wheel has a rash that needs to be fixed.


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## RonBurgundy (Feb 18, 2016)

Perhaps MJB can chime in... I was under the impression that curb rash was not chargeable? Or are we talking about cracked/gouged wheels as opposed to damage to the wheel finish?


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

RonBurgundy said:


> Perhaps MJB can chime in... I was under the impression that curb rash was not chargeable? Or are we talking about cracked/gouged wheels as opposed to damage to the wheel finish?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Curb rash is chargable, according to the lease turn in paperwork.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> Curb rash is chargable, according to the lease turn in paperwork.


Just have the wheel rim(s) re-finished, this is a must with any M Sport/M vehicle with performance tires.

It's a lot cheaper to have independent shops fix the damage than the Center upon grounding. Unfortunately, this is part of the leasing terms as BMWFS is the legal owner that we need to abide to.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

The local prices to refinish rim are around $150/rim, but the rim needs to be off for a day or two, so a spare rim + tire is needed.

$400*2 for front and rear bumper refinish may not be too bad.

festers reported buying used RFTs(approved ones by bmw) with at least 4/32 for $400-ish, so that can be an option.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> The local prices to refinish rim are around $150/rim, but the rim needs to be off for a day or two, so a spare rim + tire is needed.
> 
> .


lol

Do what the dealer do- pay a fly by night company to come out and do it in the parking lot- sand, mask, spray, done.

Take a close look at used wheels on BMW lot cars, some real shoddy stuff. Not always, but pretty common.

No need for a full wheel 'refinish'. For a lease turn in.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

ard said:


> lol
> 
> Do what the dealer do- pay a fly by night company to come out and do it in the parking lot- sand, mask, spray, done.
> 
> ...


I paid over $600 to have 4 rims refinished in 2017 ( 2 rims per vehicle), but the alloy wheel repair vendor also re-installed the OEM RFT for both vehicles, so it saved me time by not having to take the tires down from my Monkey Bar racks in the garage and transport to the local independent shop.

Prior to turning in the X5 50i, I stopped at a ATM to make a deposit 1 mile away from the Center and curbed a rim pulling out- center genius looked the other way when grounded as they only checked the tire threads (OEM factory tires were practically brand new as I had Conti DWS installed after PCD).

As discussed before under the tire and warranty thread, best is purchase non RFT's shortly after delivery from Tire Rack due to the included tire warranty, at lease end re-install OEM factory tires. Still is less money than purchasing tire and rim warranty, especially if living in a warm weather climate that the roads don't freeze and develop pot holes.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> lol
> 
> Do what the dealer do- pay a fly by night company to come out and do it in the parking lot- sand, mask, spray, done.
> 
> ...


My old E39 had one a rim fixed by dealer as they curbed my rim during a service visit. The cash price was also $150 but the dealer got it for $80 or something.

The quality was OK, and SA said it was meant to hide not fix the scratches.

My guess though is that such on-the-spot quality will catch the eyes of the lease end inspectors.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> As discussed before under the tire and warranty thread, best is purchase non RFT's shortly after delivery from Tire Rack due to the included tire warranty, at lease end re-install OEM factory tires. Still is less money than purchasing tire and rim warranty, especially if living in a warm weather climate that the roads don't freeze and develop pot holes.


My thinking is that just ride it until 3/32 and then buy new tires. Buy 4/42 used tires at lease end also works, but feels a bit odd to me(e.g. still needs to ride on these used 4/32 tires to get to dealer).

The strategy of taking off brand new tires implies that at least 6/32 tread is paid but not used.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Do lease end inspectors pick on repaired(plugged + patched) RFTs?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Do lease end inspectors pick on repaired(plugged + patched) RFTs?


No, just worried about the trend and uses the tire wear bars- at least during my 2 recent groundings.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> My thinking is that just ride it until 3/32 and then buy new tires. Buy 4/42 used tires at lease end also works, but feels a bit odd to me(e.g. still needs to ride on these used 4/32 tires to get to dealer).
> 
> The strategy of taking off brand new tires implies that at least 6/32 tread is paid but not used.


I'll pay and absorb that hit to have softer performance tires. Current M's have SuperSports, so I'll drive at least the F83 a few thousand miles before ordering new 4s tires.

If you notice in my signature pic, what happens at lease turn in if the orange front reflectors aren't re-installed? As I plan on keeping the painted reflectors on.


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## Greg @ East Bay BMW (Jul 6, 2013)

We don't charge for the reflector or badge changes.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

We all complain about stuff dealers try to pull -- let's take a hard look at the standards we, as customers, maintain. Do unto others, and all of that sort of thing....

And let's all remember, part of the lease deal is that the leasee pays (a premium) for the "use" of a portion of the car's life and then returns the car to the lessor in excellent condition. 

I may choose to ride on a plugged run-flat or drive around with curb rash, windshield chips, paint dents and scratches. But when I turn the car in at lease end, I gotta clean up my mess or pay the dealer to do it. And there is NO WAY I'm gonna offload a plugged run flat or a substandard paint/rim repair onto the next unsuspecting owner of the car. Very, very, bad karma.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Greg @ East Bay BMW said:


> We don't charge for the reflector or badge changes.


How much does cracked windshield cost at lease end inspection? If it is $500-ish then it will be cheaper than CCRC.

It is surprising to me that bumper scratches only costs $400 at lease end inspection, usually it goes for $1000+ at CCRC.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> We all complain about stuff dealers try to pull -- let's take a hard look at the standards we, as customers, maintain. Do unto others, and all of that sort of thing....
> 
> And let's all remember, part of the lease deal is that the leasee pays (a premium) for the "use" of a portion of the car's life and then returns the car to the lessor in excellent condition.
> 
> I may choose to ride on a plugged run-flat or drive around with curb rash, windshield chips, paint dents and scratches. But when I turn the car in at lease end, I gotta clean up my mess or pay the dealer to do it. And there is NO WAY I'm gonna offload a plugged run flat or a substandard paint/rim repair onto the next unsuspecting owner of the car. Very, very, bad karma.


My guess is repaired RFT is meant to incur charges but at times such repairs can be missed.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

first off, screw them. Take your car to a place away from the dealer and fix the dings rash etc. The dealership will most likely be sending it to a place that fixes those things after you turn it in. BTW the run flats is absolute BS. You may have to eat them but requiring run flats is arrogant


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> My guess is repaired RFT is meant to incur charges but at times such repairs can be missed.


Exactly, which is why it is on the person who plugged the tire to replace it before turning the car in.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Exactly, which is why it is on the person who plugged the tire to replace it before turning the car in.


How about the customers who flash tune the ECU which makes the vehicle ineligible to be a CPO? Should they purchase a new ECU, despite the ECU written back to stock? With tuning via OBDII availability since December 2017 for the F chassis, a lot of tunes are occurring remotely.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> How about the customers who flash tune the ECU which makes the vehicle ineligible to be a CPO? Should they purchase a new ECU, despite the ECU written back to stock? With tuning via OBDII availability since December 2017 for the F chassis, a lot of tunes are occurring remotely.


That is an excellent question.

There is nothing I'm aware of that requires a leased car to be grounded in a condition that would guarantee the car's CPO eligibility. However, there is language about "non-standard equipment" and "If the non-standard equipment cannot be removed or modified without decreasing the vehicle's value or usefulness" the equipment becomes the lessor's property and the leasee may be billed for excessive wear and use. And there is the bit about damage due to installation or removal of non-manufacturer, after-market, or replacement parts.

Is a flash tune a "part?" What constitutes "damage?"

I always felt that if one wishes to add mods to a car, purchasing the car makes sense whereas leased cars should be kept original or any mods should be removable without having caused any "damage" or disfigurement to the car.

I'm sure your question has arisen. My question would be, if it's okay to return a tuned car to factory specs prior to lease grounding, and the evidence of the tune is known to the dealer, is the dealer required to disclose to the next buyer of that car that the car was ECU tuned and restored to factory tune?

Talk about buyer beware!!!


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> That is an excellent question.
> 
> There is nothing I'm aware of that requires a leased car to be grounded in a condition that would guarantee the car's CPO eligibility. However, there is language about "non-standard equipment" and "If the non-standard equipment cannot be removed or modified without decreasing the vehicle's value or usefulness" the equipment becomes the lessor's property and the leasee may be billed for excessive wear and use. And there is the bit about damage due to installation or removal of non-manufacturer, after-market, or replacement parts.
> 
> ...


Many of these are not clearly stated, so it is hard to navigate.

E.g. is repaired RFT considered wear and tear?

If repaired windshield/scratches/dings is acceptable, it will seem that repaired RFT per tire manufacturer/RMA guideline should also be acceptable.

And mods are big topics, e.g. those piggybacks that leave no trace surely push the cars hard during lease terms.

So do lessees replace the engines before lease turn in, just like repaired RFT? Any thoughts?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

1968BMW2800 said:


> That is an excellent question.
> 
> There is nothing I'm aware of that requires a leased car to be grounded in a condition that would guarantee the car's CPO eligibility. However, there is language about "non-standard equipment" and "If the non-standard equipment cannot be removed or modified without decreasing the vehicle's value or usefulness" the equipment becomes the lessor's property and the leasee may be billed for excessive wear and use. And there is the bit about damage due to installation or removal of non-manufacturer, after-market, or replacement parts.
> 
> ...


Here is the fine print from the CPO Manual, September 2017 revision:

"4.3 Special Note on Modifications: (tuning software/components and otherwise)
Important: Modified vehicles are not eligible for enrollment in the CPO Program. Vehicles with modification(s) to the DME/DDE or any other component which could have a detrimental effect on long-term operation or performance of the vehicle cannot be enrolled in the CPO Program even if returned to original BMW factory operating specifications."

Another example is the M4 GTS DCT transmission can be coded remotely onto a M3/M4 DCT. The upcoming M3/M4 CS EDC software is already being coded on to M3/M4's.

"Vehicle Disqualification Criteria:
4.2.6 Vehicles that have (or have been):

k) Alterations from original factory specifications in any manner such as (but not limited to):
***8722; Non-OEM engine replacement
***8722; Suspension modifications
***8722; Chassis modifications
***8722; Exhaust System Modifications
***8722; Vehicles with outer body wrap
***8722; Tire and wheel installations
***8722; Non-BMW performance modifications
l) All BMW training vehicles - including STEP training vehicles
m) Vehicles used in any Ride Share Service, (such as Uber, Lyft and others)"

I find section m interesting, no ride sharing.

What is up with tire and wheel installation?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Many of these are not clearly stated, so it is hard to navigate.
> 
> E.g. is repaired RFT considered wear and tear?
> 
> ...


Piggybacks are yesterdays news, especially with remote flash tune via OBDII that can be reverted back to OEM within minutes:

BPM Fxx M3/M4 OBD-II Port Flashing for End Users - Official Release - Available NOW! https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447224


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Many of these are not clearly stated, so it is hard to navigate.
> 
> E.g. is repaired RFT considered wear and tear?
> 
> ...


I remember asking an attorney an arcane legal question. This particular attorney had clerked for a Supreme Court justice and had written a textbook which became a standard law school text on his area of expertise. A really brilliant lawyer. His response to my arcane question was something like, "I hope common sense still has a role to play in interpretation of the law." I still think about that.

Plugging a tire, run flat or standard tire, generally doesn't meet manufacturer standards but often is a sufficient repair to allow a tire to hold air for its useful lifetime. Run flats, if repairable, require more than just a plug because the design of the run flat is said to be compromised if a non-spec repair is done. That's what they say. A proper repair of a tiny windshield chip, using the special bonding agent designed for chip repair might be considered an adequate repair if the chip isn't deep and if the application of the bond returns the integrity to the glass such that there is no possibility of a crack developing and/or growing from the chip. Who is to say where that line is?

Clearly a run flat tire with a big nail hole that gets a roadside plug is compromised, even if it holds air. Especially if it has been driven "flat" for a few miles after the puncture. And, clearly, a windshield crack that has grown and is artfully filled by a skilled pro is still a cracked and, thus, compromised windshield, even if it looks okay "cosmetically." These are just common sense.

A car that has been tuned and flogged hard may have more wear than a non-tuned, non-flogged car. But then, a stock, never-tuned car can still be mercilessly abused by an aggressive driver who likes to take the car to the track for weekend drifting and so forth. I wouldn't want to be the second owner of such an "always stock tune" car.

The thought we don't want to lose is not so much about what one can "get away with" on a lease return, but rather, what kind of karma do we want to pass on down the line to the next owner of a BMW we have enjoyed? Here, as in so many areas of life, common sense, and common decency, should, I think, come into play.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Plugging a tire, run flat or standard tire, generally doesn't meet manufacturer standards but often is a sufficient repair to allow a tire to hold air for its useful lifetime. Run flats, if repairable, require more than just a plug because the design of the run flat is said to be compromised if a non-spec repair is done. That's what they say. A proper repair of a tiny windshield chip, using the special bonding agent designed for chip repair might be considered an adequate repair if the chip isn't deep and if the application of the bond returns the integrity to the glass such that there is no possibility of a crack developing and/or growing from the chip. Who is to say where that line is?
> 
> Clearly a run flat tire with a big nail hole that gets a roadside plug is compromised, even if it holds air. Especially if it has been driven "flat" for a few miles after the puncture. And, clearly, a windshield crack that has grown and is artfully filled by a skilled pro is still a cracked and, thus, compromised windshield, even if it looks okay "cosmetically." These are just common sense.
> 
> ...


FYI repairing RFT per tire manufacturer/RMA guidelines requires plug + patch(patch requires removing the tire and repairing from the inside, plus the plug). So based on your description, plug + patch appears to be an acceptable repair for lease return, no?

Also, a car with piggyback/ECU flash will have more wear and tear than non-tune cars, provided equal amount of track + daily driving on both cars.

Is your position suggesting that such driven-hard cars should get brand new engines upon lease return?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

I was aware of a situation where someone significantly modified a 996TT, but reverted it prior to trade to a P dealer. P dealer CPOd the car WITH THE DME FLASHED. (with a raised rev limiter) A few months later there were some engine issues, Porsche looked at the 'over-rev data' in the DME, and determined the car had been abused- declined warranty. Dealer sold a car that effectively had no warranty at the time they sold it. Details on the resolution became murky at this point....


When you lease a car, are you allowed- ALLOWED- to modify the car? Does the lease agreement prevent you from flashing/tuning the car? Im going to guess the answer is that the lease is silent on mds. "damage", yes...but nothing about mods.

So a lessee can mod the car, 'legally', and then revert the car to stock, give it to the dealer and the dealer can get stuck with a car that they cannot CPO, or if they do CPO, that BMW could possibly deny coverage. A karmic sin, but any liability to the initial lessee?


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> So a lessee can mod the car, 'legally', and then revert the car to stock, give it to the dealer and the dealer can get stuck with a car that they cannot CPO, or if they do CPO, that BMW could possibly deny coverage. A karmic sin, but any liability to the initial lessee?


So a CPOed car that has been abused prior to CPO cert may still lose warranty if BMW finds abuse evidence from DME?

But the customer does have a clean bill of health from the CPO checklist, right? If so, can the DME evidence be used to request selling dealer to pay for any damage?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> So a CPOed car that has been abused prior to CPO cert may still lose warranty if BMW finds abuse evidence from DME?
> 
> But the customer does have a clean bill of health from the CPO checklist, right? If so, can the DME evidence be used to request selling dealer to pay for any damage?


1, Most DMEs will not specify WHEN abuse occurred. Like when it was flashed, or when a parameter that indicates abuse (an over-rev) was recorded. (Usually you might get the last occurrence of an event, not each, nor the first.)

2, "CPO checklist"?!? You have GOT to be joking. Is there anyone that actually believes it is evidence that the dealer has 'carefully inspected the car and determined it is all within BMW specifications'?!? I know for a FACT that BMW does not require the DME be interrogated for anything- no pending codes, no erased codes, they dont look for modifications, they dont look for any signs of abuse.

3. Customer can 'request' dealers pay for damage all they want. Dealers will basically tell you to pound sand. and BMWNA will say 'bend over, it will make it easier for the dealer'. IMO

4. As a legal matter, BMWNA is likely in the clear- (although IMO this kind of stuff is so rare and usually hidden, it just wouldnt usually come up.) But again, legally, the terms of the BMW new car warranty dont get revised or reset when ownership changes. BMWNAs warranty obligation to the car is the same if there is one owner as if there are 3 and the first two were drag racing and Ubering: any evidence of abuse or modifications, we wont cover a failure.

You would have to try and get around the warranty, CPO and bill of sale language to somehow prove that the dealer knew or should have known- or that BMW or the dealer implied something about the coverage that was different than the words in the documents.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> FYI repairing RFT per tire manufacturer/RMA guidelines requires plug + patch(patch requires removing the tire and repairing from the inside, plus the plug). So based on your description, plug + patch appears to be an acceptable repair for lease return, no?


Maybe. Plug alone, as you confirmed, and as stated in my previous example, no. Plug and patch, if the car has been driven several miles flat (as run flats are designed to do), again, no.

*"Also, a car with piggyback/ECU flash will have more wear and tear than non-tune cars, provided equal amount of track + daily driving on both cars."*

Maybe. Abused is abused. Point is, how a car is driven may be more relevant than whether or not some sort of "tune" (piggyback or ECU) was used. As ard points out, warranty coverage depends on what the dealer determines.



> Is your position suggesting that such driven-hard cars should get brand new engines upon lease return?


No.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> 2, "CPO checklist"?!? You have GOT to be joking. Is there anyone that actually believes it is evidence that the dealer has 'carefully inspected the car and determined it is all within BMW specifications'?!? I know for a FACT that BMW does not require the DME be interrogated for anything- no pending codes, no erased codes, they dont look for modifications, they dont look for any signs of abuse.


There are lots of event counters(with dates) on F-chassis , so there may be evidence logged, but certain expertise is needed to extract those if dealers do not comply. 

The CPO checklist did help a coworker to get a set of new tires when the paperwork said 5/32 while his measurement was 3/32. The dealer tried to attribute that to wear and tear in the 50 miles since the car was driven off the lot, but eventually dealer could not keep a straight face and ponied up.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

RonBurgundy said:


> Perhaps MJB can chime in... I was under the impression that curb rash was not chargeable? Or are we talking about cracked/gouged wheels as opposed to damage to the wheel finish?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Sorry, late correction ... I did so on the other thread .... I thought it was curb rashing on the tire. Curb rash on the RIM is a separate charge.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Maybe. Plug alone, as you confirmed, and as stated in my previous example, no. Plug and patch, if the car has been driven several miles flat (as run flats are designed to do), again, no.
> 
> *"Also, a car with piggyback/ECU flash will have more wear and tear than non-tune cars, provided equal amount of track + daily driving on both cars."*
> 
> ...


My definition of repaired tire in post#17 is "Do lease end inspectors pick on repaired(*plugged + patched*) RFTs? " Your later post#21 says plugged tire, so our definitions of repaired tires diverge somewhat.

My thinking is repaired(plugged + patched per RMA guidelines) run-flat, minor paint dents and scratches(and minor rim and windshield dings/scratches/chips too?)are not bad karma provided they meet BMW lease end return guidelines(e.g. ding-o-meter). Anything that does not meet the guidelines will be flagged like in OP's case.

And your statement of abused engine not bad karma(so to speak) is debatable but lease return is not brand new car anyway, so one argument can be that the 35-45% depreciation paid accounts for the abuses on the engine, yes/no?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> My definition of repaired tire in post#17 is "Do lease end inspectors pick on repaired(*plugged + patched*) RFTs? " Your later post#21 says plugged tire, so our definitions of repaired tires diverge somewhat.
> 
> My thinking is repaired(plugged + patched per RMA guidelines) run-flat, minor paint dents and scratches(and minor rim and windshield dings/scratches/chips too?)are not bad karma provided they meet BMW lease end return guidelines(e.g. ding-o-meter). Anything that does not meet the guidelines will be flagged like in OP's case.
> 
> And your statement of abused engine not bad karma(so to speak) is debatable but lease return is not brand new car anyway, so one argument can be that the 35-45% depreciation paid accounts for the abuses on the engine, yes/no?


3rd party lease inspectors just measure the tire thread. How are they going to inspect tires for a patch, especially when they don't drive the car or can put on a lift to inspect each tire? I believe the lease terms are only thread depth, no mention of patches, etc., so this is staying within the terms of the contract. Contract law has no previous 'karma' holding.

BMW promotes their vehicles to be driven hard (M vehicles with high rev engines), especially with the marketing pharse "The Ultimate Driving Machine". As the PC staff instructs- 'drive it like you stole it. '

Back to thread topic, sorry to see OP be taken advantage of.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

bnguyen1983 said:


> I wonder if you're able to bring it to a different dealer? When I turned my car in, my guy was extremely lenient. Didn't mark me for a huge key scratch on my trunk or my curb rashed rims. Had two non RFT tires in the front and told me to just go get some quick used ones at a Mexican shop and he'll mark them off.


But just as easily he could have screwed you for, what, $1200-1500 in charges??

And you'd have been stuck-

It is almost impossible to 'shop' for a favorable return. Go to one dealer after another, setting up a lease return then walking out?!?


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

ard said:


> And you'd have been stuck-
> 
> It is almost impossible to 'shop' for a favorable return. Go to one dealer after another, setting up a lease return then walking out?!?


I don't think so. You need to sign the return. So if you don't sign, no issues. It didn't happen.

If they were going to make an issue of my curb rash, my plan was not to sign, go get it fixed by their own guy, then return it again. I made sure I returned it a few days earlier to give myself that margin. I didn't need the car, my mileage was up, so it was not a consideration. But your situation may be different. I also saved on insurance by returning earlier.


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## HugH (Apr 26, 2006)

Here's a thought. Take the car as is to CarMax and they will give you a purchase quote. It will be your decision if the offer is close enough to your residual value so you don't have to haggle with the dealer.

CarMax is very profesional and I have made a couple of thousand $$$ at lease end. Of course, they will inspect your car and deduct $$$ for anything and everything. It all takes about 30-45minutes of your time once you get there.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

HugH said:


> Here's a thought. Take the car as is to CarMax and they will give you a purchase quote. It will be your decision if the offer is close enough to your residual value so you don't have to haggle with the dealer.
> 
> CarMax is very profesional and I have made a couple of thousand $$$ at lease end. Of course, they will inspect your car and deduct $$$ for anything and everything. It all takes about 30-45minutes of your time once you get there.


I know that this has been mentioned in the past, but if more BMWFS end of lease customers 'turned in' at Car Max it can potentially have an effect on the CPO sales channel.


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