# Does your car feel slower with winter tires than with summer tires?



## SizzlerMA (Sep 23, 2003)

Forget about handling on curves, etc., summers win. But for some reason my car feels slower at all engine speeds, any kind of acceleration, with winters than with summers . . .

I'm running Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 225/45VR17 snows on Mille Miglia 17x8 MM11-2 Sport Silver wheels vs Bridgestone Potenza RE-040 summers on ZHP 18" wheels.

Are the winter wheels and tires just that much heavier, i.e., can the greater unsprung weight make that much of a difference?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Yes, and it is a bit of a different ride going from 17" summer wheels/tires to the 15" winter set up.


.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

I was suprised by the feel I noticed after switching to the 17" set for winter over the stock 18's. The difference in mass is there and makes the car feel a bit quicker. I haven't weighed the 2 but from lugging the 18's out of the car and back into the garage if I had to venture a guess it's got to be getting close to 5 lbs per wheel/tire.


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## 330soon2b (May 30, 2004)

SizzlerMA said:


> Forget about handling on curves, etc., summers win. But for some reason my car feels slower at all engine speeds, any kind of acceleration, with winters than with summers . . .
> 
> I'm running Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 225/45VR17 snows on Mille Miglia 17x8 MM11-2 Sport Silver wheels vs Bridgestone Potenza RE-040 summers on ZHP 18" wheels.
> 
> Are the winter wheels and tires just that much heavier, i.e., can the greater unsprung weight make that much of a difference?


Could you post a pic of your tire setup. I am about to purchase a setup from tirerack, but wanted to see what your ZHP looks like with the Mille Miglia rims. Thanks. I am looking at the AT Italia Type 5 Sport


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

No snow in the Alamo city :thumbup:


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## Elwood (Dec 20, 2002)

SizzlerMA said:


> Forget about handling on curves, etc., summers win. But for some reason my car feels slower at all engine speeds, any kind of acceleration, with winters than with summers . . .
> 
> I'm running Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 225/45VR17 snows on Mille Miglia 17x8 MM11-2 Sport Silver wheels vs Bridgestone Potenza RE-040 summers on ZHP 18" wheels.
> 
> Are the winter wheels and tires just that much heavier, i.e., can the greater unsprung weight make that much of a difference?


 I noticed just a slight difference. But you have to consider that my winter setup is heavier (actually weighed). However, Winter to Summer's are only 3# diff on the rear so I could be just imagining the difference.

Winters: 44's with 225F/R weight 49#/ea
Summers: 68M's 225/245 are 45#/46#.
Track: SL's 235F/R @ 40#/ea

If your winter's weighed the same, you'd probably get better (theoretically) performance out of the 17"ers due to a more favorable moment of inertia.


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## Gabe (Sep 20, 2004)

I think it is all in your head.

I highly doubt you are feeling the weight, if there even is much of a weight difference. (Style 135's are heavy) Your wheels should also be about the same diameter, so it is not effecting your final drive at all either.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

IIRC winter tires use a softer compound so there is more grip.


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## Test_Engineer (Sep 11, 2004)

Your car should definately "feel" slower with snows. Snow tires are made of extremely soft compounds and have really high rolling risistance. It is as simple as the fact that a snow tire is just that much softer and is much stickier. 

The weight difference is pretty noticable. Unsprung mass added to a vehicle is A LOT more noticable than sprung mass. For handling and ride, adding 5 lbs. to the tire/wheel assembly has way more effect than an additional passenger in the vehicle.


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## Gabe (Sep 20, 2004)

Test_Engineer said:


> Your car should definately "feel" slower with snows. Snow tires are made of extremely soft compounds and have really high rolling risistance. It is as simple as the fact that a snow tire is just that much softer and is much stickier.
> 
> The weight difference is pretty noticable. Unsprung mass added to a vehicle is A LOT more noticable than sprung mass. For handling and ride, adding 5 lbs. to the tire/wheel assembly has way more effect than an additional passenger in the vehicle.


I am well aware of what unsprung weight is, but we are talking about ridiculously weight differences here. A difference that I would argue can not be felt by the average joe when accelerating in a straight line.

Also the tire softness/stickiness argument is ridiculous. Go to any road course or drag strip, and check out the tires that the serious guys are running. I guarantee they are softer, and stickier than any DOT approved snow tire. Are you suggesting that these guys could go faster with a harder/less sticky tire?

Asides from that, a snow tire will perform worse on dry pavement than any performance radial. The tire rack has done many tests to prove this. Softness is not the only factor. Check out the amount of rubber that actually makes contact with the road on a snow tire. Should be much less than a good performance tire. Also compare things like sidewall stiffness. All of this will have en effect on traction, but outside from that it should not make your car slower.


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## Test_Engineer (Sep 11, 2004)

Gabe said:


> I am well aware of what unsprung weight is, but we are talking about ridiculously weight differences here. A difference that I would argue can not be felt by the average joe when accelerating in a straight line.


Yes, Unsprung mass is very easy to feel a difference, especially 5+ lbs.



Gabe said:


> Also the tire softness/stickiness argument is ridiculous. Go to any road course or drag strip, and check out the tires that the serious guys are running. I guarantee they are softer, and stickier than any DOT approved snow tire. Are you suggesting that these guys could go faster with a harder/less sticky tire?


Tire rubber is very temperature sensitive. At the temp at wich you would change from summers to snows, the summer tires are very hard, and the snows are still very soft. This is why I say the snow tire feels VERY sticky when you put them on. Look at the sidewall of most snows, it will say something like don't use over 40 degrees F or something like that. And the comment about race tires... well, yes, snows are a much softer compound, but the tread stiffness is very poor. The ability of the snow tread to flex so much is what gives you the edges to grip slippery surfaces. The lack of sipes in a rcae tire means its tread is very stiff and has better chemical adhesion on smooth asphalt. Snows and race tires are the complete opposite of each other.



Gabe said:


> Asides from that, a snow tire will perform worse on dry pavement than any performance radial. The tire rack has done many tests to prove this. Softness is not the only factor. Check out the amount of rubber that actually makes contact with the road on a snow tire. Should be much less than a good performance tire. Also compare things like sidewall stiffness. All of this will have en effect on traction, but outside from that it should not make your car slower.


Basically answered by the previous staement. It comes down to tread stiffness and compound.


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## BMWmike (Dec 5, 2004)

winter wheels are like half the weight of summer wheels, so in my cas my car is a slug with my rims on and even uses more gas to


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

330soon2b said:


> Could you post a pic of your tire setup. I am about to purchase a setup from tirerack, but wanted to see what your ZHP looks like with the Mille Miglia rims. Thanks. I am looking at the AT Italia Type 5 Sport


I'd be curious too. Yesterday, I saw a set of the 16" AT Italia TYpe 5 on a clone of my car, and didn't like the look.


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## 330soon2b (May 30, 2004)

My car "feels" slower. I believe it is due to the softer rubber (blizzak LM22). These tires seem to create a lot of friction between the road.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

My car feels slower on snows because the snow wheels are a lot heavier.


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## Wolfcastle (Feb 11, 2004)

Summer wheels = 18 lbs. + rubber
Winter wheels = 25 lbs. + rubber

Of course the difference in unsprung weight will make a noticeable difference.
But it's all good. The additional mass helps the snow tires in powder or hardpack.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Like others have said, the difference is most likely due to the heavier weight. I've been through 7 or 8 sets of wheels when I had a 330i and I could feel the difference when it was 3 lbs or more per wheel/tire.

Also I bet the snow tires weigh a lot and being that the unspring weight is farther from the middle of the wheel ... in other words it is far from the center, the feel of the weight is even greater ...

Weigh both of your wheel set-ups and you'll find out the weight difference.


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## qwiktiger (Jan 20, 2004)

*ZHP with snows from Tire Rack*

Very please with these: 17x7 Sport Edition Fox 6 with Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50's - got them Tire Rack


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

What's snow :dunno:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

BMWmike said:


> winter wheels are like half the weight of summer wheels, so in my cas my car is a slug with my rims on and even uses more gas to


 And it looks like ****, too.


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## Wolfcastle (Feb 11, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And it looks like ****, too.


 Be quiet, Dick.


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And it looks like ****, too.


No doubt in my case. I had to put the BBS's away and remount my bottlecaps with my Vredesteins on my e30. Looks like azzz but I like the tires so far.

Alex


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## Mapman (May 26, 2003)

No difference as far as I can tell. What I do notice is that my Pilot Alpins are a lot less noisy than the Dunlop 8080's that the car came with.


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## rev2red (Oct 5, 2004)

*Michelin PA2's*

I use #96 rims with 225/45/17 Bridgestone Turanza's for the summer (oem tire) and I just put new Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2's (225/45/17) on my #44's for the winter.

I actually think the Michelin winter set feels better. The noise and ride quality is excellent and I don't notice any speed difference. I haven't had them on snow yet, but they definitely inspire a lot of confidence on those 35-40 degree rainy days. I know the Blizzaks are popular, but I think Michelin has a winner with these new PA2's.

My Bridgestone's are ok for a summer touring tire, but I will probably go with something different when they wear out. Any suggestions assuming I stick with the #96 17's?


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

I just put on my winter set-up yesterday and the car feels a bit slower accelerating and defintley slower cornering. I gained about 5lbs per wheel going from 68Ms with stock Conti's to a used set of OEM type 44's with new Dunlop Wintersport M3's at 225/45/17 all around. I set them to 36psi in my 50 degree garage all around, when I left work it was 20 degrees out and before I left the psi in each tire went down to exactly 33psi. I don't think the stock psi of 32F/38R makes any sense, especially for winter tires. The conti's I set at 38 all around and I think the winters a little less at 36 makes sense. I hope the winter traction I gain when the freezing rain and snow starts is worth the trade off.


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

SizzlerMA said:


> Forget about handling on curves, etc., summers win. But for some reason my car feels slower at all engine speeds, any kind of acceleration, with winters than with summers . . .
> 
> I'm running Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 225/45VR17 snows on Mille Miglia 17x8 MM11-2 Sport Silver wheels vs Bridgestone Potenza RE-040 summers on ZHP 18" wheels.
> 
> Are the winter wheels and tires just that much heavier, i.e., can the greater unsprung weight make that much of a difference?


If anything, my car is noticeably faster in colder temperature. Someone on a Miata enthusiast board had calculated that for every 4 degrees in lower ambient temp, his car gained ~ 1% in power. Even if the gain isn't that significant with our cars, it is still there and it is very noticeable. My wheel/tire combo weighs about the same with either setup (my snow wheels and tires are both narrower). Even if your winter setup weighs 5 lbs more per corner and considering that unsprung weight equates to something like 4 times regular weight, I doubt the difference would be noticeable in street driving.


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