# ES100 pwnz the rain



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

So my friend Butthead with his E30 325is (it gots LSD) shodded with ES100's has been driving in the rain for the last few days, and he absolutely loves these tires. :thumbup: 

There were sustained 100+ driving in the rain, 75+ driving on the Tepulveda pass, and of course, going sideways after hitting the apex on regular ole corners. :thumbup: 

It was such fun watching the SUV's with their mighty 4 by 4 going less than the speed limit probably scratching their heads wondering how that little "beemer" could be going so fast and not crashing.  :bigpimp: 

Of course, the E36 M3 shodded with S02PP was stilll the record holder for Butthead, at 140+ in the rain. :drive:  

ES100 rocks! Now, maybe I should go get some and see if I can drive like BUtthead, eh? :angel:


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## gfeiner (Jun 27, 2003)

Stuka said:


> There were sustained 100+ driving in the rain


That is just plain wreckless. I don't care how good the tires perform, 100+ in the rain just puts everyone else in danger. Not cool. :thumbdwn:


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

gfeiner said:


> That is just plain wreckless. I don't care how good the tires perform, 100+ in the rain just puts everyone else in danger. Not cool. :thumbdwn:


You should go tell that to all those Europeans.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

gfeiner said:


> That is just plain wreckless. I don't care how good the tires perform, 100+ in the rain just puts everyone else in danger. Not cool. :thumbdwn:


I agree, Butthead's driving was quite wreckless. :thumbup: I will be sure to forward your displeasure at Butthead's driving to him. :angel:

100+ in the rain puts everyone in danger, and this blanket statement comes from your years of experience as a fahrertraining instructor? Or perhaps your years of experience driving in the rain on the Autobahn at 200km/h plus? 

It's not that big of a deal given proper training. But I can see it being a big deal if this is comign from a perspective of drivers who cannot operate RWD vehicles safely without electronic driver's aide. :dunno:


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

gfeiner said:


> That is just plain wreckless. I don't care how good the tires perform, 100+ in the rain just puts everyone else in danger. Not cool. :thumbdwn:


Think thats bad... Try 156mph in Montana with snow... Wreckless ? yes. Adrenaline rush... Priceless.. :angel:


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Stuka said:


> I agree, Butthead's driving was quite wreckless. :thumbup: I will be sure to forward your displeasure at Butthead's driving to him. :angel:
> 
> 100+ in the rain puts everyone in danger, and this blanket statement comes from your years of experience as a fahrertraining instructor? Or perhaps your years of experience driving in the rain on the Autobahn at 200km/h plus?
> 
> It's not that big of a deal given proper training. But I can see it being a big deal if this is comign from a perspective of drivers who cannot operate RWD vehicles safely without electronic driver's aide. :dunno:


Dude, swap the high horse for humble pie...

He was (or should be) referring to the speed differential between your aptly named friend and those other road users, particularly the SUVs going below the speed limit. That makes 45mph difference in one case, and a whopping 85mph difference in another.

If everybody were going a similar speed, it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm no angel when it comes to speeding, matter of fact I do it every single day. But I try to keep the speed differential reasonable, so I can react effectively in an emergency situation.

Ask your friend, how quickly will his car stop in the rain from 100mph? How quickly can he swerve at that speed to avoid a dumb-a$$ SUV?

I think we should all drive based on what the actual conditions are, not what they should ideally be... Who gives a flying f&*k what the Europeans do in their respective countries? He wasn't driving over there...

adc, getting off his high horse and heading home (in the rain!)

On second thought, maybe I was a little harsh... :dunno: nah...


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## jgrgnt (Apr 27, 2002)

Hmm, is it wrong to have expected a thread about a 3-cylinder, AWD Lexus?


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## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

jgrgnt said:


> Hmm, is it wrong to have expected a thread about a 3-cylinder, AWD Lexus?


 :rofl:


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

jgrgnt said:


> Hmm, is it wrong to have expected a thread about a 3-cylinder, AWD Lexus?


I dont get it...


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## MysticBlue (Jun 20, 2003)

misterlance said:


> I dont get it...


1/3rd of an ES300?


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## MysticBlue (Jun 20, 2003)

MysticBlue said:


> 1/3rd of an ES300?


But then that would be make an ES300 9 cylinders.:dunno:


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

MysticBlue said:


> But then that would be make an ES300 9 cylinders.:dunno:


ok.. u lost me :banghead:


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## jgrgnt (Apr 27, 2002)

MysticBlue said:


> But then that would be make an ES300 9 cylinders.:dunno:


I was thinking more in terms of displacement. If the "ES330" = 3.3L, then the "ES100" = 1.0L engine. The first engine that came to mind with that exact displacement is from the '89 Geo Metro, featuring none other than...3 cylinders. So, assuming Lexus crafted a similar 1.0L engine, I simply made a guess that it would also have 3 cylinders.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

I had ES100's on my WRX. 

They were amazing for about 4,000 miles. Then they went hard, noisy and the handling got whacky, especially in the rain. They were completely worn out by 8,000 miles!

Granted the car had a tight suspension and I drove it hard, but I wouldn't trust my safety to ES100's past 5,000 miles!

Just my experience...


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## woohoo (May 29, 2003)

I've had ES100s for 13,000 miles and no problems so far. Nor Cal had its first big storm of the season this week and they've performed beautifully. Of course, I wasn't going 100MPH. :angel:


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

I have the ES100s on my Miata. Not bad, but my friend's (also on a 1.8L Miata) Toyo T1-S are better. When I kill the ES100s, I'll either get Azenis (much better dry traction) or T1-S... if the new-gen Azenis are in, I'm all over 'em.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

gfeiner said:


> That is just plain wreckless. I don't care how good the tires perform, 100+ in the rain just puts everyone else in danger. Not cool. :thumbdwn:


Stuka is the high speed test driver for bimmerfest.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> Stuka is the high speed test driver for bimmerfest.


 :lmao: :lmao: :thumbup:


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

My ES100s sucked in the rain.

At the time I had them, I lived in a place where it rained nearly 60 inches a year. I would say that I have plenty of experience to make that judgement.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

nate said:


> My ES100s sucked in the rain.


They're not as bad as the Kumho 712s, but they're not good enough to merit a post lauding them.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

The Roadstergal said:


> They're not as bad as the Kumho 712s, but they're not good enough to merit a post lauding them.


I've had really good experience with the ES100s, both on track on the street. So had the editor if our national monthly CCA publication. :thumbup:

When I read posts stating that tire X is crap because it only lasted me less than oh... 10,000 miles, it instantly tells me something about the driving habits of the person posting this experience. Don't blame the tire, blame the driver. :angel:

As for autobahn cruising in the rain at 100mph... :tsk: What's your definition of 'rain' and was it actually '100mph' or was it '99.999mph'.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

SergioK said:


> I've had really good experience with the ES100s, both on track on the street. So had the editor if our national monthly CCA publication. :thumbup:
> 
> When I read posts stating that tire X is crap because it only lasted me less than oh... 10,000 miles, it instantly tells me something about the driving habits of the person posting this experience. Don't blame the tire, blame the driver. :angel:
> 
> As for autobahn cruising in the rain at 100mph... :tsk: What's your definition of 'rain' and was it actually '100mph' or was it '99.999mph'.


I suppose that I don't have your skill level, oh great one, but I do think that the ES100s are a bad tire.

Poor hydroplaning resistance, mediocre dry grip, and extremely loud at low speeds.

As for high speed rain driving, just about any performance tire can handle 100+ in a light rain. That is nothing special.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

I give es100 a :thumbdwn: too. Got them on the wagon and havent been impressed. Like my Kumho MX better. Es100 seem like they might last longer too. I like driving in the rain


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

SergioK said:


> When I read posts stating that tire X is crap because it only lasted me less than oh... 10,000 miles, it instantly tells me something about the driving habits of the person posting this experience. Don't blame the tire, blame the driver. :angel:


I'm not complaining because they're short-lived (which they're not proving to be). I'm complaining because, as nate said, dry grip is medicore and wet grip is OK. I can break the things loose in the dry far too easily. It can be fun, but it's not fast.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

nate said:


> I suppose that I don't have your skill level, oh great one, but I do think that the ES100s are a bad tire.


Do you think that skill level and habits are synonymous? I don't.

I believe there can be a distinction in the two, especially if one's daily driving habits are not in line with their skills.

I may choose to scrub off speed around turns using my tires (more wear) but this may be my daily driving habit, not necessarily my skill level.

Case in point, I do this at the track when I'm on my cool down lap. I'd rather scrub speed with my tires and not use my brakes rather than use my brakes and save my tires.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

adc said:


> Dude, swap the high horse for humble pie...
> 
> He was (or should be) referring to the speed differential between your aptly named friend and those other road users, particularly the SUVs going below the speed limit. That makes 45mph difference in one case, and a whopping 85mph difference in another.


If you have ever driven on the Autobahn you will know that the speed differential in their narrow three lane (mostly) highway can be as high as over 100mph.

Trucks can't go over 100km/h, and you got some cars going over 250km/h the next lane over, and guess what? Their highway fatality rate is still lower than ours. What does that tell you? 



adc said:


> If everybody were going a similar speed, it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm no angel when it comes to speeding, matter of fact I do it every single day. But I try to keep the speed differential reasonable, so I can react effectively in an emergency situation.


So it's OK when you speed, but not when other people do it? And who died and made you the judge of what "reasonable speed differential" is? It's like those people who drive 80 on the left lane and won't move if someone coming up faster from behind. "I am already going 80, that's fast enough."  Simply because one is incapable of going a certain speed safely does not mean that all are incapable of such. :tsk:



adc said:


> Ask your friend, how quickly will his car stop in the rain from 100mph? How quickly can he swerve at that speed to avoid a dumb-a$$ SUV?


If anyone driving at 100 needs to suddently react to hard braking from 100 to 0, then that said person probably shouldn't be driving in the first place. You use soft vision, and you manage the traffic around you, and plan (NOT REACT) accordingly. You only react when you are not paying attention. This is track school 101. :thumbup:



adc said:


> I think we should all drive based on what the actual conditions are, not what they should ideally be... Who gives a flying f&*k what the Europeans do in their respective countries? He wasn't driving over there...


I happen to think that driver training has way more to do with being able to operate a car safely at any speed than driving at some arbitrary speed deemed safe by some. 

Being able to drive 100 in the rain or any conditions is really not that hard, given some basic car control and fahrertraining. :drive:

Of course, we all know that I drive the speed limit, and that this is all theoretical.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Stuka said:


> Being able to drive 100 in the rain or any conditions is really not that hard, given some basic car control and fahrertraining. :drive:


Ah, so you agree..



nate said:


> As for high speed rain driving, just about any performance tire can handle 100+ in a light rain. That is nothing special.




I did my first raining track day in Falken Azenis RS. Spun in 8, but once I had the hang of it, they could get me around pretty quickly. But there are better rain tires out there; I'm going to recommend Azenis on dry traction, not wet. And I'd recommend ES100s as decent compromise low-price summer tires, not postworthy traction in either...


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## johnnygraphic (Jun 26, 2004)

Stuka-

Speeding on public roads, no matter what your skill level is dangerous. Planning for and reacting are two different things. You can be Phil Hill and still come over a rise and see a child chasing a ball into the street. Planned for or reacted to?

Yes, I speed. Everybody does to some degree or another. I choose not to do it on streets with traffic or with poor visibility or with less than ideal conditions. I don't race my car on public roads. I don't race others on public roads. I don't put others at risk. 

Just because someone is a trained driver does not put mean that they can avoid all accidents.

Pride comes before a fall or a crash in some instances Stuka. 

Please, everybody, be safe out on the roads. Appreciate your cars and your skill levels on a track.

Thank you.


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## cruztopless (Sep 23, 2002)

Stuka said:


> If you have ever driven on the Autobahn you will know that the speed differential in their narrow three lane (mostly) highway can be as high as over 100mph.
> 
> Trucks can't go over 100km/h, and you got some cars going over 250km/h the next lane over, and guess what? Their highway fatality rate is still lower than ours. What does that tell you?


The difference being they are more disciplinedand only use the left lane from passing only ... generally speaking and from my brief experience there. Besides, regardless of your skill level you cannot control the actions of the drivers around you. I also am not sure about their highway fatality being lower than ours. I've heard otherwise but I don't have any facts at hand to agree or disagree with you.

Regarding the es100 ... I like them but they are only 205/50VR15 and they are probably not representative of the lower profile, wider versions of the same tire. They seem to slice through puddles, handle very well in the dry and last 40k+ miles. For this purpose they are excellent.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

cruztopless said:


> The difference being they are more disciplinedand only use the left lane from passing only ... generally speaking and from my brief experience there. Besides, regardless of your skill level you cannot control the actions of the drivers around you. I also am not sure about their highway fatality being lower than ours. I've heard otherwise but I don't have any facts at hand to agree or disagree with you.
> 
> Regarding the es100 ... I like them but they are only 205/50VR15 and they are probably not representative of the lower profile, wider versions of the same tire. They seem to slice through puddles, handle very well in the dry and last 40k+ miles. For this purpose they are excellent.


You have heard wrong from idiots who can't comprehend the fact that just because they are incapable of operating a car at high speed safely, .de must be a total carnage.  Theirs are lower, :google:

Again, you plan and you manage traffic. Did you know that even in .de, the stupid Richtgeschwindigkeit ruling basically gave crappy drivers blank checks to cut off fast drivers on the Autobahn at any speed? :dunno:


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

You can safely drive a BMW 80mph on highways and avoide morons so 100mph would be a slightly more dangerous but not insane in a BMW or any high performance car. The key to driving fast is watching out for bad drivers and anticipaiting their bad driving habits, do not weave in and out of traffic, leave plenty of room betwen you and the car in front this is especially important with the high sitting SUVs, watch the brake lights lots of driving information can be proccessed from tail lights, keep your car in good repair. 

No one is suggesting driving at high speeds on city or residential streets.


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## johnnygraphic (Jun 26, 2004)

Stuka & Artslinger-

Your assumption is that you CAN control what happens around you. On city streets, on highways, on the autobahn. Your assumption is that YOUR training will avoid all accidents. This is dead wrong. 

Under controlled conditions your skill level may impress you and others. I could care less if you're the high speed test driver for bimmerfest or a formula 1 driver or a test pilot for the air force. Put yourself out on the highway with unskilled drivers and those with erratic behavior and you stand to lose more than just your precious license. How many dead race car drivers are there? Every driver on those tracks are highly trained, spends millions on their equipment and they all travel in the same direction. 

My point is, don't believe that your skill, your car, your tires can make up for the laws of physics and the law of life-accidents do happen. Speed compromises your ability to react to them. I am NOT saying that simple speed will kill you and others. I AM saying that wreckless driving on public roads is plain stupid. 

To get back to the thread-I live in California & don't deal with a lot of rain so I won't be needing 100 mph rain tires.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Stuka said:


> If you have ever driven on the Autobahn you will know that the speed differential in their narrow three lane (mostly) highway can be as high as over 100mph.
> 
> Trucks can't go over 100km/h, and you got some cars going over 250km/h the next lane over, and guess what? Their highway fatality rate is still lower than ours. What does that tell you?
> 
> ...


Are you saying that you can PREDICT other people's behaviour perfectly? Read their minds? Know about that dropped CD that they're just now reaching for? See that nail jutting out of the pavement 300 yards ahead? I'm now very afraid of you...

But seriously, you don't expect me to believe you can plan for these types of situations when you decide to drive 100mph in the rain, on good old US public roads. :dunno:

Friend, you don't MANAGE the traffic, traffic lights do that. You just try to predict how other cars will behave - but that's all that is, a prediction. I agree it can be more or less accurate based on a variety of factors, including driver skill and road awareness. But you only control a small part of it, that is your car and your actions. Sometimes not even that...


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

adc said:


> Are you saying that you can PREDICT other people's behaviour perfectly? Read their minds? Know about that dropped CD that they're just now reaching for? See that nail jutting out of the pavement 300 yards ahead? I'm now very afraid of you...
> 
> But seriously, you don't expect me to believe you can plan for these types of situations when you decide to drive 100mph in the rain, on good old US public roads. :dunno:


You don't need to read minds. You just need to manage traffic. I would think that you would know what this means since you have had some track experience. 

What's your reference for good ole US public roads? The pathetic DC/VA/MD highways? They shouldn't even be called highways as fas as I am concerned. Try driving out west where the roads aren't crap, and cops aren't hiding in the bushes ready to hand you a ticket for misdemeanor reckless driving for merely going 80. 



adc said:


> Friend, you don't MANAGE the traffic, traffic lights do that. You just try to predict how other cars will behave - but that's all that is, a prediction. I agree it can be more or less accurate based on a variety of factors, including driver skill and road awareness. But you only control a small part of it, that is your car and your actions. Sometimes not even that...


Sigh, manage traffic means that you use your soft vision (or maybe they call it something else back east) and you mark your run-off's. On the track, do you, or do you not look past the traffic and drive your own line and mark your run-off's to account for cars spining out or dropping coolants or what have you? :dunno:

Lastly, did you not read my explanation about Richtgeschwindigkeit? Germans are better drivers, but if you think that it's twice as safe to go 220km/h (or heck, let's use the "deadly" 160km/h, since that seems to be the magic number that many of you obsess over) on the Autobahn than on the U.S. highway (fine, we'll just use Western states), then may I suggest that you spend some time driving in .de.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Stuka said:


> What's your reference for good ole US public roads? The pathetic DC/VA/MD highways? They shouldn't even be called highways as fas as I am concerned. Try driving out west where the roads aren't crap, and cops aren't hiding in the bushes ready to hand you a ticket for misdemeanor reckless driving for merely going 80.


Last time I drove on the highways around San Diego up to the outskirts of LA, I found the highways to be noisy concrete nightmares, filled with "buck-me" rodeo-style expansion joints - and slippery in the rain, as evidenced by the numerous accident reports on teh nightly news at even the merest whiff of water.

Did any of that change?



> Sigh, manage traffic means that you use your soft vision (or maybe they call it something else back east) and you mark your run-off's. On the track, do you, or do you not look past the traffic and drive your own line and mark your run-off's to account for cars spining out or dropping coolants or what have you? :dunno:


On the track I doubt I would go over 100mph in the rain. Dry, no problem. I congratulate you on your prowess if you do.

Would you deny it is a lot more risky to do 100mph in the rain than say - 75? With that in mind, please consider that those who join you at the track partake in the increased risk of high speed driving. Not so on the public roads.



> Lastly, did you not read my explanation about Richtgeschwindigkeit? Germans are better drivers, but if you think that it's twice as safe to go 220km/h (or heck, let's use the "deadly" 160km/h, since that seems to be the magic number that many of you obsess over) on the Autobahn than on the U.S. highway (fine, we'll just use Western states), then may I suggest that you spend some time driving in .de.


I am not sure what you are arguing about here, it may be just the late hour here on the East Coast but this starts to look a lot like a German pi$$ing contest. (I'm sure you must be familiar with that since you spent so much time driving over there :rofl: )

I will agree to disagree and I'll keep my speeds in check to what I believe is safe, based on road conditions. I am pretty sure that will not include 100mph in the rain, for me. And I am mighty glad I live several thousands of miles away from you, again particularly when it rains.

adc


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

OK, I had wondered if it was somehow just my Miata that was the problem; light weight, maybe, making the ES-100s do four-wheel drifts through normal turns in the rain? Spinning tires in three gears? Now that I've driven an Z3 with ES-100s, I can say with much more confidence - man, these tires suck.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

The Roadstergal said:


> OK, I had wondered if it was somehow just my Miata that was the problem; light weight, maybe, making the ES-100s do four-wheel drifts through normal turns in the rain? Spinning tires in three gears? Now that I've driven an Z3 with ES-100s, I can say with much more confidence - man, these tires suck.


been driving the wagon recently with the es100s and I agree they suck. :thumbdwn: They tramline very bad and are very noisy. Not buying them again, almost want to throw them away but they dont bug my wife as much.


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## vm (Jul 16, 2002)

I nominate the ES100 as the most polarizing tires ever created. Somebody in Roundel (Mike Miller?) wrote about how great these tires were in both the rain and dry and theorized that people who disliked them were using muche heavier vehicles than his e30. This is not the case for the Z3 and the Miata so maybe the problem is that they are very sensitive to either alignment, suspension geometry, or tire pressure. It is also possible that the different sizes of this tire would behave very differently. I have them (in 205-60-15) and I am very happy with them, particularly in the rain although I have not tracked the car with them.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

vm said:


> I nominate the ES100 as the most polarizing tires ever created. Somebody in Roundel (Mike Miller?) wrote about how great these tires were in both the rain and dry and theorized that people who disliked them were using muche heavier vehicles than his e30. This is not the case for the Z3 and the Miata so maybe the problem is that they are very sensitive to either alignment, suspension geometry, or tire pressure. It is also possible that the different sizes of this tire would behave very differently. I have them (in 205-60-15) and I am very happy with them, particularly in the rain although I have not tracked the car with them.


Mine is on bling bling 14" rim. :bigpimp:

Now that the rears are almost completely bald, it still gets decent traction on the freeway, and I don't have any hydroplaning issue. Heck, Butthead told me that he did 110 in the rain the other day and the car didn't blow up, glide on water, cause instant death and destruction, or the fall of western civilization. :thumbup:

Of course, because the rears are mostly gone, it is quite sensitive to mid corner full throttle application, and can be driven sideways at will in 1st gear and the beginning RPM range of second gear. Just the other day Butthead told me that he got the car over full opposite lock with four wheel drift, that must have been fun. :drive:


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