# what triggered you to EGR delete?



## T67Regal (Aug 25, 2019)

New owner of 2016 535dx. I came across a super deal and the timing was right. I am assuming its one of the last US BMW diesels to be made...?

While learning about the N57, I see many photos/videos of the EGR causing all kinds of intake soot. Gosh it makes me cringe!!! 

I went through about a years worth of posts looking for when some owners are triggered to delete their EGR but can't find too much. Those who have deleted their EGR, at what point/mileage/other made you decide to do it? 

I am in a quandary....I want to remove my EGR since it only has 31k miles and its intake system is probably still super clean. However, it still has factory warranty another 19k miles or until November 2020. But, if I wait until the warranty is over (November 2020 or 50k miles) then will it be CHOCKED with soot and then become a big cleaning project?? Or is it not worth deleting my EGR until my warranty is up ?? 

yes, I do have a T67 Buick Regal w/built motor, trans, FMIC, cutout, etc. etc. Just like Grammy drives but with 550 fwhp.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

I think you will find that most often the stuff you will be deleting are the items that give people the most trouble under warranty.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

alacey said:


> I think you will find that most often the stuff you will be deleting are the items that give people the most trouble under warranty.


 /sarcasm/ Yeah, but after the warranty is up then smoooth sailing. /sarcasm/


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## robnitro (Aug 3, 2016)

Not a smart idea to delete before warranty is over. The dealer/bmwna can use this to weasel out of a repair. It's not worth the danger of that or your tune getting overwritten by accident, which would also be a headache.


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## T67Regal (Aug 25, 2019)

Many thanks fellas. I am going to wait until the warranty is up. Just hope its not a big clean at 51k miles.

Is there anything I can do now to lessen the soot buildup over the next year? I reviewed alot of posts and did not see any specific soot/buildup cleaner other than hand/mechanical cleaning. But I may have missed it so if you all recommend a cleaner/process to reduce soot please reply with that thread so I can read it. 

thanks again.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

To help minimize soot buildup in the EGR and intake:
1. Put only the best diesel fuel you can find in your area from high turnover stations along major routes.
2. Drive the P!$$ out of it. Do not baby it by driving "gently" all the time. Also avoid using the car exclusively for short trips. Regularly get on the power and use it. "Drive it like you stole it" applies. Use Sport mode.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.

These are rules which apply for the life of the car.




Sent from my XP8800 using Tapatalk


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

There are certain communities of BMW diesel owners that I would classify as "diesel bros." Their first response to anybody getting a diesel is "delete it!" Beware of these guys because their knowledge base is from M57s and they really don't know much about the N47/57 platform. These are the same guys that think "MOAR BOOST!" is the best way to make power from tuning, but in actuality that's not the limiting factor for the N47/57.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

In most modern diesels, the limiting factor is often the emissions devices. After speaking with various tuners that offer both emissions intact and emissions deleted tuning for my BMW, I believe the N47 is no different which is why their higher powered tunes require these devices deleted. They all told me that the emissions devices will not last long at these power levels and a few even told that the the emissions system life is probably reduced even with the lower power tunes. 

This is also true in the diesel truck world which I am more familiar with. High in-cylinder temps of the higher power tunes will create more NOx which will cause the EGR/SCR to be utilized more often. Increased EGR usage will create more soot on the DPF which will cause more regen events. Excessive regen events will cause the DPF to get full quicker and more fuel dilution in the oil due to injecting fuel on the exhaust stroke to heat up the DPF. 

However, I tend to disagree with with the US EPA emissions requirements that favor gas emissions like CO and CO2 which is more harmful for the environment. I agree with the EU emissions requirements that has a NOx limit over 30 time higher than the US and is more strict on CO and CO2 from gas engines.


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

alacey said:


> In most modern diesels, the limiting factor is often the emissions devices. After speaking with various tuners that offer both emissions intact and emissions deleted tuning for my BMW, I believe the N47 is no different which is why their higher powered tunes require these devices deleted. They all told me that the emissions devices will not last long at these power levels and a few even told that the the emissions system life is probably reduced even with the lower power tunes.


The problem with those tuners is they don't really know the system as well as they think they do. They do things "the old way" but haven't dove deep enough to see why those techniques are silly on the latest platforms. Because they don't know better, they do silly things like change the limp-mode maps (why the hell would you do that), or control turbos as if they had to compensate for delays of older turbo designs.

Thinking they need to delete stuff for euro 325d performance is just stupid, since the 325d uses the same emissions equipment. I saw a dyno from one guy with a DUDMD stage 3 full deletes tune and his increase over stock was proportionally less than KermaTDI's dyno increase over stock where they keep all the emissions equipment. Emissions equipment can be a limiter, however for this platform there are other things limiting power before the emissions system does.

With my previous JR stage 2 tune both EGTs and boost were higher than the KermaTDI tune, yet I've gained power with the switch. Additionally my regen frequency decreased. It used to be about 225mi between regens and now it's about 325mi.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

FaRKle! said:


> The problem with those tuners is they don't really know the system as well as they think they do. They do things "the old way" but haven't dove deep enough to see why those techniques are silly on the latest platforms. Because they don't know better, they do silly things like change the limp-mode maps (why the hell would you do that), or control turbos as if they had to compensate for delays of older turbo designs.
> 
> Thinking they need to delete stuff for euro 325d performance is just stupid, since the 325d uses the same emissions equipment. I saw a dyno from one guy with a DUDMD stage 3 full deletes tune and his increase over stock was proportionally less than KermaTDI's dyno increase over stock where they keep all the emissions equipment.
> 
> With my previous JR stage 2 tune both EGTs and boost were higher than the KermaTDI tune, yet I've gained power with the switch. Additionally my regen frequency decreased. It used to be about 225mi between regens and now it's about 325mi.


KermaTDI was one of the ones I spoke with and they said the same thing everyone else did. From what they stated, they turn off the EGR or keep it from being utilized as much under high load. Turning off or reducing the EGR use will have a significant effect on regen cycles because it will create less soot. So I am not surprised you have less regens.

Although, the EU regulations have a much higher NOx limit than here in the US. So even though it has the same equipment, then EGR is probably not opening up as much or under high cylinder temps as it is needed here in the US due to our stricter NOx limit of .02 g-hp/hr. This alone will allow you to create more power because the engine is not being held back by introducing as much cooled exhaust air with less oxygen content.

As far as dyno's go. It is really hard to compare two different dyno's if they are on different types of dyno's, different roller resistance loads, different altitudes, different correction factors, and different weather. Heck, even having the same dyno on the same day, but with different roller loads will make a big difference when it comes to VG turbos. I saw it with many diesel trucks including my own. Mine would make 450 hp with low load on the rollers, but will make well over 510 hp with more load. Same truck, same tune, same dyno, same day, but with different roller loads.

Dyno's are good for showing any gains losses when done on the same dyno with the same settings and similar weather conditions, but not that great for comparing numbers between two different dynos. To many factors come into play and even more so for forced induction vehicles.

Here is a great article that further explains what I am talking about.

DIESEL HORSEPOWER HUNTING: THE WHAT, HOW & WHY OF CHASSIS DYNO TESTING


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## T67Regal (Aug 25, 2019)

n1das said:


> To help minimize soot buildup in the EGR and intake:
> 1. Put only the best diesel fuel you can find in your area from high turnover stations along major routes.
> 2. Drive the P!$$ out of it. Do not baby it by driving "gently" all the time. Also avoid using the car exclusively for short trips. Regularly get on the power and use it. "Drive it like you stole it" applies. Use Sport mode.
> 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
> ...


TY. I do remember reading a lengthy and good post from 2018 regarding choosing high turnover fuel stations, centane, etc. Maybe you crafted that post, TY. Also remember reading a post about recommended BMW specific diesel oil and the recommended long mileage duration between oil changes. I may or may not use that recommended BMW diesel oil but I did see that info.


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## jck66 (Nov 28, 2017)

I don't see a KermaTDI tune available for the N57 5-series - am I looking in the wrong place?


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

alacey said:


> KermaTDI was one of the ones I spoke with and they said the same thing everyone else did. From what they stated, they turn off the EGR or keep it from being utilized as much under high load. Turning off or reducing the EGR use will have a significant effect on regen cycles because it will create less soot. So I am not surprised you have less regens.
> 
> As far as dyno's go. It is really hard to compare two different dyno's if they are on different types of dyno's, different roller resistance loads, different altitudes, different correction factors, and different weather. Heck, even having the same dyno on the same day, but with different roller loads will make a big difference when it comes to VG turbos. I saw it with many diesel trucks including my own. Mine would make 450 hp with low load on the rollers, but will make well over 510 hp with more load. Same truck, same tune, same dyno, same day, but with different roller loads.
> 
> ...


Yes they do modify the EGR behavior, but it's not necessarily for more power. They also don't support full deletes like all the other tuners do. While you're not wrong that deleting all emissions could help with power gains, like I said prior, it's not necessarily the first limiting factor on this platform.

Additionally, you'll note I never compared direct dyno numbers, but rather proportionality of change, which should be comparable from dyno to dyno.



jck66 said:


> I don't see a KermaTDI tune available for the N57 5-series - am I looking in the wrong place?


They don't offer a tune for the N57.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

FaRKle! said:


> Yes they do modify the EGR behavior, but it's not necessarily for more power. They also don't support full deletes like all the other tuners do. While you're not wrong that deleting all emissions could help with power gains, like I said prior, it's not necessarily the first limiting factor on this platform.


You would have to alter the EGR system to make power because of how the EGR system is designed to operate based on NOx output. High cylinder temps above 2,800F created when making more power also creates an excessive amount of NOx . The ECM or whatever BMW calls it for there diesels will sense this and open the EGR valve to introduce cooled exhaust gas with lower oxygen content(less power potential) back into the intake to cool down these cylinder temps. The intake throttle valve will also partially close at times to create a vacuum to pull this exhaust gas into the intake which also causes a restriction.

This also creates even more soot which will cause your DPF to clog up quicker which means more frequent regens. If they didn't alter the EGR actuation and parameters in their tune, then it would keep trying to introduce exhaust gas every time you were making power due the high cylinder temps. So if the EGR is altered, then they are either over utilizing the SCR system, which needs time to heat up to reduce NOx, or they are allowing the car to create more NOx than stock.

Another problem may be the DPF. They are adding power by adding more fuel by adjusting injector actuation timing and duration. Depending on how they programmed the VG turbo, it may not be able to add enough air for the amount of fuel being added at all rpm's. As you know, adding fuel in a diesel with not enough air for a complete burn equals rolling coal. So they are likely forced to limit the amount of fuel added(limit power) at certain rpm's to keep this soot in check to ensure long DPF life.

I am not saying that you can't make power with the emissions systems intact, I am just saying that you can make even more with them gone. Not only that, but you can make power with lower much EGT's since you are removing the DPF/SCR which traps heat especially when in regen. Making more power with emissions system intact will put more of a strain on the DPF and SCR because they are working overtime to keep up fuel/heat/power/soot being made. A tuner will likely have to find the right balance of power and ensuring these devices have a long life. Something you don't have to worry about when they are not there. Either way, you are making more NOx than stock when tuned deleted or not.

This is why I say that today's engine's are tuned to meet emissions especially diesels. Power output is severely restricted with the very low .02g-hp/hr NOx limit we have in the US. NOx is not harmful in the stratosphere and is actually beneficial there yet our laws allow vehicles to emit more CO ad CO2, which are harmful to the environment, than others like the EU. Our standards were written by those who either ignorantly or purposely favor gasoline engines over diesel engines



FaRKle! said:


> Additionally, you'll note I never compared direct dyno numbers, but rather proportionality of change, which should be comparable from dyno to dyno.


Proportional change is also not accurate between two dynos unless you know exactly how each dyno was configured.


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## Buick430 (Jun 14, 2019)

As others have mentioned - messing with the EGR under warranty is probably a bad idea.
Until then, i would recommend:
- Many long trips where the engine gets to operating temp
- Highway speeds or increased revving to get full airflow - helps keep the intake clean
- Use diesel additives regularly (like Bell Add or similar) for a cleaner burning engine

And as soon as the warranty is out - block or delete the EGR depending on what is possible in your state. Better mileage, less soot, longer lasting DPF & engine oil, etc...it's all good 

I wouldn't recommend tuning for better performance - mainly because it's puts increased strain on the entire drivetrain, and secondly; a stock 535d should have plenty of torque and HP :thumbup:


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## T67Regal (Aug 25, 2019)

I wish we could give likes/thumbsup for individual posts within a thread. I know we can reply with a thumbs up but being able to click within the post without replying would be great. There are several very good posts within this thread that are of great value for new diesel owners. (there are also posts from people who unfortunately were just not trained well and would confuse a new owner). Thank you Buick430, Alacey, N1DAS and others for the great info.

As I had initially suspected, my registration arrived and for my county in PA it says "emissions inspection required, diesel vehicles exempt" :banana: 

Upon research it seems many counties of many states have "diesel vehicles exempt" with the predicted exception being densely populated counties. I suppose I should have previously researched this before being surprised. I own 4 diesel tractors and all are Tier III or older (zero emissions equipment) so the diesel emissions are new to me. Does that mean I can remove or delete pieces of emission and still be emission legal in my state ?? or does it need to be intact and just not need to be tested/inspected?


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## graphicjunkie (Nov 15, 2016)

So I do have the KermaTDI tune on my 328d, and from my understanding. They DO limit the amount of time the EGR is open to just the first couple of minutes the engine is started. After that, it isn't needed, so it's deactivated. BEWARE doing deletes. From what is told to me, the EPA is starting to go after folks, as well as after the vendors of the kits. SO unless you can make it completely invisible to the naked eye, it might cost you.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

graphicjunkie said:


> So I do have the KermaTDI tune on my 328d, and from my understanding. They DO limit the amount of time the EGR is open to just the first couple of minutes the engine is started. After that, it isn't needed, so it's deactivated. BEWARE doing deletes. From what is told to me, the EPA is starting to go after folks, as well as after the vendors of the kits. SO unless you can make it completely invisible to the naked eye, it might cost you.


The same EPA fine applies to the KermaTDI tune as well since it alters emissions devices. Even gas engine tunes break the EPA rules since the remove emissions limiters to increase power.

To be honest, you really can't tell that the 328D is deleted unless you really know what you are looking for. I have a catted downpipe so even if you took the plastic engine cover you would see a catalyst. You would have to remove the plastic cover underneath the car to see that the SCR is gone. My muffler is still there and the car is just as quiet as stock until you get on it. Even then it is just a slight growl. There is no black smoke unless you stomp on it and even then it is very little. You would almost have to be a 328d expert to tell.


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## Bolosman (Apr 5, 2017)

After your warranty expires then yes definitely delete the darn thing and get it mapped to prevent any warning lights etc. You could also get the inlet valves walnut blasted thereafter and whilst the inlet manifold is off have the swirl flaps removed too, that way you'll be as clean as new, well almost


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