# Rollover at Button Willow



## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

I just read over on SCCAForums.com about this rollover at Button Willow that happened last weekend. This isn't anybody we know is it? It appears the guy is ok, but just looking at the car makes me sick at my stomach. I feel really bad for the guy. 

All you guys who will be doing HPDEs this year&#8230; BE SAFE!!


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

BW is tricky in the winter, as the dirt around the track turns into deep mud. Sideways off-track excursions are a sure way to flip the car.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Earlier in the year two people were killed (in a convertible) at that same spot during a lunchtime 'parade lap' which was supposed to be sub 60mph speeds.


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## Test_Engineer (Sep 11, 2004)

Raffi said:


> BW is tricky in the winter, as the dirt around the track turns into deep mud. Sideways off-track excursions are a sure way to flip the car.


Exactly! Some of the other track in the area have all that gravel that does the same thing no matter what time of year it is.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

The car doesn't look that bad for rolling. Mainly dirt, the windsheild looks pretty much intact. Testament to BMW design.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

This isn't unusual during the wetter times at Buttonwillow. The instructors generally emphasize staying a good distance from the edge of the track when slick for that reason...


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

> I heard the baby seat was still strapped into the back. As I read on another site "I bet his wife will have issues...".


 

I thought they were supposed to take everything out?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mathew said:


> I thought they were supposed to take everything out?


Another reason I generally stay away from those other so-called "HPDE schools"


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> This isn't unusual during the wetter times at Buttonwillow. The instructors generally emphasize staying a good distance from the edge of the track when slick for that reason...


Uh... not me. Same as with a walled track, the harder you try to stay away from the edge/wall, the more likely you are to hit it. (you end up holding the wheel bound up instead of unwinding, yet the car is travelling forward and you get to a straight, where you should have no steering input and at full throttle, but end up at full throttle, with steering input = tail out = spin = off road excursion)


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SergioK said:


> Uh... not me. Same as with a walled track, the harder you try to stay away from the edge/wall, the more likely you are to hit it. (you end up holding the wheel bound up instead of unwinding, yet the car is travelling forward and you get to a straight, where you should have no steering input and at full throttle, but end up at full throttle, with steering input = tail out = spin = off road excursion)


What I meant was... I remember hearing warnings to leave some space for error... particularly at Talladega.... should've been more clear there...


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

That's not who it looks like at first glance, is it?


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Nope, don't believe it is.


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## operknockity (Apr 19, 2002)

Plaz said:


> That's not who it looks like at first glance, is it?


His blue car is down and out for reasons other than having rolled it


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

operknockity said:


> His blue car is down and out for reasons other than having rolled it


Glad the above is not him... but bummer! What happened?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Plaz said:


> Glad the above is not him... but bummer! What happened?


Not sure, but I think the post said the guy went off at Magic Mountain into the mud. Must've gone off sideways or something to do that I'd imagine. A friend of mine knows some of the other people that were there. I'll have to see if he found out anything from his friends.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> Not sure, but I think the post said the guy went off at Magic Mountain into the mud. Must've gone off sideways or something to do that I'd imagine. A friend of mine knows some of the other people that were there. I'll have to see if he found out anything from his friends.


Interesting, but I was actually inquiring/hijacking with a question about our friend.

Why is the blue demon on the DL?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Plaz said:


> Interesting, but I was actually inquiring/hijacking with a question about our friend.
> 
> Why is the blue demon on the DL?


Oh. oops... 

Er... he's had some bad luck with a few road hazards lately.


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## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

I actually think that it is good to check out other schools just to see what else is out there. just like bmw cca likes you to have different instructors to see what different people have to say, it would make sense to go to other schools. whether in martial arts or other hobbies, i've always been cognizant of not getting brainwashed or tunnel-visioned into believing that one technique/art/person/style/vehicle is superior over others. it's always good to keep an open mind. i will say that the one other school i went to (scca) was much, much less restrictive than the bmw cca schools. you could drive by yourself after the first session (even if it was your first time at the track) and there was open passing with no signalling needed. it was kind of scary at first because the bmw cca schools are definitely much safer and more sheltered, but then i just got used to the rules and had fun with it. i found that i could drive more aggressively at this other school, but the negative is that i definitely had a higher chance of not being able to drive my car home in one piece.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> I actually think that it is good to check out other schools just to see what else is out there. just like bmw cca likes you to have different instructors to see what different people have to say, it would make sense to go to other schools. whether in martial arts or other hobbies, i've always been cognizant of not getting brainwashed or tunnel-visioned into believing that one technique/art/person/style/vehicle is superior over others. it's always good to keep an open mind. i will say that the one other school i went to (scca) was much, much less restrictive than the bmw cca schools. you could drive by yourself after the first session (even if it was your first time at the track) and there was open passing with no signalling needed. it was kind of scary at first because the bmw cca schools are definitely much safer and more sheltered, but then i just got used to the rules and had fun with it. i found that i could drive more aggressively at this other school, but the negative is that i definitely had a higher chance of not being able to drive my car home in one piece.


Well that's the thing... I WANT to have my car to drive home in one piece. 

And I have gone to some of the other organizations to watch before and I'll tell you even as a spectator I was cringing at what I saw. So maybe I'm over generalizing it a little but hearing about things like this doesn't make me want to rush up and sign up with them.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

I've done track days with other 'organizations' that allow 1st time track drivers to go out on track with no instruction what so ever. The 1st event... two of the 45 cars went home on flat beds

I learned way back, when I was a C student, that paying the extra $$$ for the BMW Instructors pays off in the end.


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## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

SergioK said:


> I've done track days with other 'organizations' that allow 1st time track drivers to go out on track with no instruction what so ever. The 1st event... two of the 45 cars went home on flat beds
> 
> I learned way back, when I was a C student, that paying the extra $$$ for the BMW Instructors pays off in the end.


I actually don't think that the bmw schools are that much more expensive. Having said the above about keeping an open mind, I forgot to add that I definitely have enjoyed the bmw schools a ton. I really do think that the bmw schools are the best ones for what I am looking for. Realistically, I am never going to be a professional race car driver. I think that the other schools may be more aggressive, but that is not necessarily what I am looking for. The people I have met have been awesome through bmw cca, and I feel like I've started making new friends in the area. The safety aspect is cool, and the driving is of course always fun. But what has really sold me on the bmw cca hpdes are the people I've met hands down!
:thumbup:


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Andy said:


> I just read over on SCCAForums.com about this rollover at Button Willow that happened last weekend. This isn't anybody we know is it? It appears the guy is ok, but just looking at the car makes me sick at my stomach. I feel really bad for the guy.
> 
> All you guys who will be doing HPDEs this year&#8230; BE SAFE!!


just remember, that could be you Mr. Iwannatrackmyzhp


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamM3 said:


> just remember, that could be you Mr. Iwannatrackmyzhp


Trust me, I know&#8230; that's the exact thought that went through my head.  That's why I really need a dedicated track car for that stuff&#8230; I've got that on my wish list for next year.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> I think that the other schools may be more aggressive, but that is not necessarily what I am looking for.


More like the other schools aren't really "schools" but more like open hot lapping days. At least thats what it seems like to me.


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## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

doeboy said:


> More like the other schools aren't really "schools" but more like open hot lapping days. At least thats what it seems like to me.


I think that you're right about that. They really don't teach you anything, but at least you do get the practice. The thing that hit me hard after I went to my first hpde was the fact that I really wouldn't get a chance to practice. I guess you can practice driving in the streets, but that's probably not legal nor safe. In any sport, you have to practice to get better. When I was competing on a martial arts team or boxing, we used to practice 5 times a week. The thing that sucks is that you can't just go to a track everyday and practice (well, I guess you could, but you'd have to be extremely wealthy, which I am not  ) So, I figure that I'll just resign to having a whole bunch of fun with guys who have a similar interest. I've also learned alot from the whole DIY bmw community.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> I think that you're right about that. They really don't teach you anything, but at least you do get the practice. The thing that hit me hard after I went to my first hpde was the fact that I really wouldn't get a chance to practice. I guess you can practice driving in the streets, but that's probably not legal nor safe. In any sport, you have to practice to get better. When I was competing on a martial arts team or boxing, we used to practice 5 times a week. The thing that sucks is that you can't just go to a track everyday and practice (well, I guess you could, but you'd have to be extremely wealthy, which I am not  ) So, I figure that I'll just resign to having a whole bunch of fun with guys who have a similar interest. I've also learned alot from the whole DIY bmw community.


I know how you feel... I'm still trying to figure out which schools and how many that I'll be able to go to as well. (Unless I somehow hit it big in the Lottery... :eeps: yeah right... )

True you get seat time and practice. I've considered it too... but I want to practice without having to constantly worry about Mr. Knucklehead who thinks he's some racer already who might overcook something and end up punting me somewhere, etc etc.... 

Most high speed things you probably can't practice taking a turn at 40mph or something like that on the street but some things you can... like pedal footwork, just the basics of being smooth etc... those can be practiced to some extent without being at tracking speeds.


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

Like other physical disciplines, practice won't do you any good if you're not practicing the right things or the right way. I find that my first session at any track, even familiar ones, tend to be pretty messed up, and it's good to have an instructor along to correct bad habits and other things that may have built up since the last school. 

There's also lots of things you can do on the street for the track. The speeds and g forces involved will be much lower (I hope!), but it's still useful. Things I try to practice when I drive every day include: heel-toe downshifts, looking far ahead and where I want to go, relaxed hands on the wheel and gearshift, smooth inputs (steering, brakes, gas with the goal of the passenger not knowing when you've started an input) and transitions, smooth control of suspension movement, visualizing weight transfer and traction between the 4 contact patches as the car does something, and awareness of the cars around me (where they are, what they might do) as well as the environment (knowing what escape routes I have if something bad happens). A fun thing to do on a long drive is to see how precisely you can place the tires by clipping lane markers and Bott's dots (of course, don't do this if there are other cars nearby). Or if there's a corner you take every day, you can try out different entries (early, geometric middle, late) and lines with various inputs, and see where the car ends up and how it reacts (eg. how disturbed is the suspension?).

I'm far from successful at doing any of these things on a consistent basis, which probably shows that I could do this a lot more! But away from the more stressful situation of a track school, it's easier to work on a lot of these things.

--Andre


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Andre Yew said:


> Like other physical disciplines, practice won't do you any good if you're not practicing the right things or the right way. I find that my first session at any track, even familiar ones, tend to be pretty messed up, and it's good to have an instructor along to correct bad habits and other things that may have built up since the last school.
> 
> There's also lots of things you can do on the street for the track. The speeds and g forces involved will be much lower (I hope!), but it's still useful. Things I try to practice when I drive every day include: heel-toe downshifts, looking far ahead and where I want to go, relaxed hands on the wheel and gearshift, smooth inputs (steering, brakes, gas with the goal of the passenger not knowing when you've started an input) and transitions, smooth control of suspension movement, visualizing weight transfer and traction between the 4 contact patches as the car does something, and awareness of the cars around me (where they are, what they might do) as well as the environment (knowing what escape routes I have if something bad happens). A fun thing to do on a long drive is to see how precisely you can place the tires by clipping lane markers and Bott's dots (of course, don't do this if there are other cars nearby). Or if there's a corner you take every day, you can try out different entries (early, geometric middle, late) and lines with various inputs, and see where the car ends up and how it reacts (eg. how disturbed is the suspension?).
> 
> ...


Yup, you hit the nail on the head with that one. You can practice quite a bit during regular driving. I do it every day. Sure the adrenaline, speeds, etc aren't there, but the core items which you learn on the track still apply. ( I find hitting apexes in my R1100S quite interesting too! )


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## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

doeboy said:


> Most high speed things you probably can't practice taking a turn at 40mph or something like that on the street but some things you can... like pedal footwork, just the basics of being smooth etc... those can be practiced to some extent without being at tracking speeds.


Yeah, I've got to practice more what I can on the street. Everytime I've gotten into the car with Raffi (who was my instructor my first weekend on the track) and Stuka, all I hear is how I miss the apexes. It totally cracks me up! Last time I drove the two of them around a corner here was the dialogue:

Stuka: You early apexed again.
Raffi: and you downshifted in the turn.
Me: D'oh!

Need more practice, need more practice... 

edit: oh yeah, and I forgot that Raffi said I should be demoted. Fortunately, I'm in D and can't get any lower.


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

Sergio, any plans on a motorcycle track school? :thumbup: 

--Andre


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## operknockity (Apr 19, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> edit: oh yeah, and I forgot that Raffi said I should be demoted. Fortunately, I'm in D and can't get any lower.


 But you can be DFL'ed


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> Yeah, I've got to practice more what I can on the street. Everytime I've gotten into the car with Raffi (who was my instructor my first weekend on the track) and Stuka, all I hear is how I miss the apexes. It totally cracks me up! Last time I drove the two of them around a corner here was the dialogue:
> 
> Stuka: You early apexed again.
> Raffi: and you downshifted in the turn.
> ...


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Stuka did that to me last time. Just tell him "That's not an apex... it's called a curb... they like to eat up nice expensive wheels.... and them being painted with a red stripe doesn't mean it's a burm... it means NO PARKING... " 

"oh.. and that yellow thing is not an apex cone... it's called a fire hydrant..." 



> edit: oh yeah, and I forgot that Raffi said I should be demoted. Fortunately, I'm in D and can't get any lower.


There's always "E" for "El Passo"  Have you met Carl McGinn yet?


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## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

doeboy said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> Stuka did that to me last time. Just tell him "That's not an apex... it's called a curb... they like to eat up nice expensive wheels.... and them being painted with a red stripe doesn't mean it's a burm... it means NO PARKING... "
> 
> "oh.. and that yellow thing is not an apex cone... it's called a fire hydrant..."


:bustingup :bustingup :bustingup


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Andre Yew said:


> Sergio, any plans on a motorcycle track school? :thumbup:
> 
> --Andre


I'm learning and am holding off for the motorcycle track school. Plus, I'd need to get full leathers, boots, gloves, etc and my budget is 'ahem' slimmer this year. :bawling:


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## Mdk330i (Feb 24, 2002)

Andre Yew said:


> Like other physical disciplines, practice won't do you any good if you're not practicing the right things or the right way. I find that my first session at any track, even familiar ones, tend to be pretty messed up, and it's good to have an instructor along to correct bad habits and other things that may have built up since the last school.
> 
> There's also lots of things you can do on the street for the track. The speeds and g forces involved will be much lower (I hope!), but it's still useful. Things I try to practice when I drive every day include: heel-toe downshifts, looking far ahead and where I want to go, relaxed hands on the wheel and gearshift, smooth inputs (steering, brakes, gas with the goal of the passenger not knowing when you've started an input) and transitions, smooth control of suspension movement, visualizing weight transfer and traction between the 4 contact patches as the car does something, and awareness of the cars around me (where they are, what they might do) as well as the environment (knowing what escape routes I have if something bad happens). A fun thing to do on a long drive is to see how precisely you can place the tires by clipping lane markers and Bott's dots (of course, don't do this if there are other cars nearby). Or if there's a corner you take every day, you can try out different entries (early, geometric middle, late) and lines with various inputs, and see where the car ends up and how it reacts (eg. how disturbed is the suspension?).
> 
> ...


I do that stuff all the time on the street. Everytime I get back to the track, it makes a difference in my skill level.


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## Mdk330i (Feb 24, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> Yeah, I've got to practice more what I can on the street. Everytime I've gotten into the car with Raffi (who was my instructor my first weekend on the track) and Stuka, all I hear is how I miss the apexes. It totally cracks me up! Last time I drove the two of them around a corner here was the dialogue:
> 
> Stuka: You early apexed again.
> Raffi: and you downshifted in the turn.
> ...


Stuka hasn't honked your horn yet?


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

Mdk330i said:


> Stuka hasn't honked your horn yet?


 :bustingup :bustingup


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

1. You do NOT, do NOT go off at Butt-on-Willow sideways, especially during wet season. :tsk: 

2. There is a reason why BMW schools cost more $$. :thumbup: 

3. Especially when the owner of some school sent his GT2 flying in front of other Turbo and GT2 owners on a canyon run. :thumbdwn: 

4. If you are going off, STRAIGHTEN THE DAMN CAR. They practically drill that into your head in the C and D student classrooms. Now this guy is going to think that all "HPDE's" are like the carnage on wheel crap that he attended. That's like people who think the NASA schools are the same as the CCA schools. :rofl: 

If you don't over drive your own talent, chances of this happening to you is quite slim. And if you pay attention in class, and still ended up going off, chance of this happening to you is even slimer.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> I think that you're right about that. They really don't teach you anything, but at least you do get the practice. The thing that hit me hard after I went to my first hpde was the fact that I really wouldn't get a chance to practice. I guess you can practice driving in the streets, but that's probably not legal nor safe. In any sport, you have to practice to get better. When I was competing on a martial arts team or boxing, we used to practice 5 times a week. The thing that sucks is that you can't just go to a track everyday and practice (well, I guess you could, but you'd have to be extremely wealthy, which I am not  ) So, I figure that I'll just resign to having a whole bunch of fun with guys who have a similar interest. I've also learned alot from the whole DIY bmw community.


Of course you can practice on the street. Turn in, apex, and track out rules still apply.

See that turn coming up? You aim for the apex, you make your turn it a few inches away from the curb (or you can pretend that you are Monty and drive over it anyway), and you unwind and foot to the floor on exit. :bigpimp:

It's no different. :bigpimp:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

SergioK said:


> Yup, you hit the nail on the head with that one. You can practice quite a bit during regular driving. I do it every day. Sure the adrenaline, speeds, etc aren't there, but the core items which you learn on the track still apply. ( I find hitting apexes in my R1100S quite interesting too! )


I'll be happy to demonstrate to you what happens when you get on the throttle hard at the apex in the rain. :bigpimp:

It's always fun driving out of your driver side window, eh? :drive:


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