# a $4000 track car?



## Bob330Ci (Oct 15, 2002)

Theoretically speaking...I've been debating in my head getting involved in autocrossing on a regular basis. I've done one and had a great time. But I held back a little because I was nervous about what punting cones would do to my paint, as well as the fact that my car is not insured for the track, so I think if I get serious into it I would need to get a second car specifically for the track.

I started thinking, since you can't really insure a car for the track easily (or can you? I just know my Allstate insurance doesn't cover it.) it'd have to be a car I could afford to lose. I'd prefer rear drive, non turbo. I started thinking between $4000 and $6000 might be a reasonable price range for this. The only cars that have come to mind in that price range so far are the Porsche 944 and Pontiac Fiero. The Porsche is obviously easier to upgrade later with a roll bar as I advance. The fact that it'd have to be a car I wouldn't worry about scuffing up the fenders kinda eliminates any nice BMW's or other classics. The Fiero's fenders at least wouldn't dent.

It'd have to stay street legal too, because I couldn't tow it with the 330.

Are there other cars worth considering? Would it be better to use that money to add track insurance to my 330? What have you guys done or considered?

B.


----------



## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

2002 or E30


----------



## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

I have a 91 miata that has konis,coilovers, braces, CAI, header, cat, cat-back, one owner, california car, 159K, straight body, newish RE-950s, devoted maintenance with all records.

I'm asking $3999. and would love to sell it to an anthusiast who'd get real enjoyment out of the parts. If you want my car, great, send me a PM. Either way there is no doubt in my mind that miatas are the BEST low cost track cars. They're durable, RWD, double-A arm suspensions, with every alignment parameter adjustable, and every conceivable mod is available.

In fact, I think there are several members on this forum with track oriented maitas (Roadstergal et al.). 

Cheers, 
Bill


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

yep, get a miata. Very good at auto-x too.

http://www.specmiata.com/


----------



## kster (Sep 5, 2002)

I bought a '95 Miata a few months ago as a track car and part-time commuter (want to keep the miles off the M3). The car has been great and is a lot of fun to drive at the track. At 2250 pounds, it feels like a big go-kart.

So far, this is how much I've spent on it:
GC Coilovers: $400
KYB AGX shocks: $350
SCCA SOLO I roll bar: $800 (parts + labor)
Major service: $400
Falken Azenis tires: $200 (set of four  )
Track pads: $150

The suspension I installed myself since the car is very easy to work on. So I've spent about $2200 on it to get it track ready.


----------



## Bob330Ci (Oct 15, 2002)

I hadn't realized there was so much respect for the Miata, and I'd forgotten they've been in production that long. I've only ridden in one - a 2003 model a friend was test driving. (It was too small for her to consider it comfortable for daily driving.) I guess I need to get behind the wheel and try one out. Do you run into problems entering events given the lack of a roof?

haus - I guess I have too much respect for those cars to beat them up on the track. I'd wince at every cone hit and want to keep the car shiny.

Another issue is that I have rather minimal mechanic skills. I can change the tires, but most of the maintenance would be shop. So being cheap to keep running or easy to work on is another plus towards the Mazda.

B.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Bob330Ci said:


> I hadn't realized there was so much respect for the Miata, and I'd forgotten they've been in production that long. I've only ridden in one - a 2003 model a friend was test driving. (It was too small for her to consider it comfortable for daily driving.) I guess I need to get behind the wheel and try one out. Do you run into problems entering events given the lack of a roof?
> 
> haus - I guess I have too much respect for those cars to beat them up on the track. I'd wince at every cone hit and want to keep the car shiny.
> 
> ...


You will need a hardtop and roll bar eventually. Some auto-x and track events might let you get by without them.


----------



## kster (Sep 5, 2002)

You must have at least a rollbar, you can also go with a rollcage but then the car is not very practical for the street. I bought a rollbar that's approved for SCCA SOLO I so all car clubs do allow it. However a few car clubs, like BMWCCA, have additional requirements for convertibles.

Mine came with the hardtop so I've ripped out the softtop to save some weight.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

1) AutoX, good place to get started. Don't worry about cone marks. Two ways to handle them. One, don't hit the cones.  Two, they come off easily with normal detailing methods. Try it, enjoy.

2) Some incurance companies do cover track events, as long as no timing/racing. Shop around. Also not that many cars have serious accidents. I have not seen one. A couple of minor ones, easily covered by out of pocket if required.

But if you want a track car, I go with E30 if you want to stay BMW. Miata is good with a spec racing class if you want to take it further, but the same for the E30.

My advice. Go autocrossing now. Try a track event, your first even you should be working on driving the proper line more than speed anyway (and probably for several more events). Then make up your mind. Why spend the money on a car, then find out you don't like it?


----------



## e28Will (Sep 24, 2002)

*go with the miata*

***sorry, this reply should be under "$4000 track car" thread***

dollar for dollar, the miata is a better track car. -Get yourself a Harddog roll bar (with diagonal), Falken Azenis (53 each delivered! from Tires.com) Hawk HP+ pads, stainless lines, some sways and Koni's and your good to go. you'll have the advantage of the torsen rear end (a MUST!!, found only on the "C" package miatas with the leather and BROWN TOP) and the lower cg aswell.

-find yourself some factory 14" BBS wheels from the LE model and you'll shave your unsprung weight by about 3 lbs per corner. (12 vs 8.5).

The steering feel is awesome and responsive, always providing nice feedback. Pedal placement is pretty darn good for double clutching/heel toe. Seats provide good lateral support and are comfortable. You can drive in the rain with the top down as long as you're going faster than 30mph (i think, or 35).

If you feel it's not 'fast enough', get in touch with FM (flyin' miata) and they can get you some serious power. -bottom line is that BMW's are more expensive than many other cars out there including the miata.

A great resource is miata.net forums, it's always great to see a senior member of the original design team of the miata on the boards -aka, bwob. ....so where's Dr. Rosche??


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

e28Will said:


> ***sorry, this reply should be under "$4000 track car" thread***
> 
> dollar for dollar, the miata is a better track car. -Get yourself a Harddog roll bar (with diagonal), Falken Azenis (53 each delivered! from Tires.com) Hawk HP+ pads, stainless lines, some sways and Koni's and your good to go. you'll have the advantage of the torsen rear end (a MUST!!, found only on the "C" package miatas with the leather and BROWN TOP) and the lower cg aswell.
> 
> ...


I'll second the Miata choice! :thumbup:

You really have to flog one to see what a gem that little car really is. Get an R-package or full M-Edition to have the LSD and all other goodies.

At the AutoX, it's is very hard to beat a properly driven/prepped Miata, even with bone stock engine. Harddog is a must, but if you decide to istall yourself, be sure you are confident in your skills.  It takes a lot of time and effort to do the install.

The car is cheap to run and modify. For the driving pleasure and the $$ that the car runs for, it is pretty much impossible to beat.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Akakubi said:


> At the AutoX, it's is very hard to beat a properly driven/prepped Miata, even with bone stock engine.


Compared to what?


----------



## PunchIt (Dec 24, 2002)

Spec Miata! Or find an E30 that is well maintained.


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

The stock Miata shifter and steering response will not make you happy with just about any other regular US car stock.

If you get one without a Torsen or an R package suspension, they're easy to upgrade. Anything is easily added.


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> Compared to what?


E36 and E46, as well as Z-06's...on Hoosier's. :yikes: On tighter courses locally modded (CSP or SM) Miata's are very formidable. For the $$ and performance/fun factor you gain Miatas are the way to go.

I AutoX one also (stock so far, M-edition) and it is quick! Puts a lot more smiles on my face than my E46 tank.

Track is a different story however. :bigpimp:


----------



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

My vote is for an E30 325is. I believe that is the sports package with factory limited slip diff. Not sure on car pricing but I would guess the parts are not as cheap as the Miata.

The great thing about an older car is that they are easier to work on and you can get parts easier new at local parts stores or at the junk yard. Also people start to get creative with older cars to make things run better which is always fun (if you like tinkering with crap).

EDIT - Merged the two threads for everyone. I also seems that I am in the minority for wanting the E30, damn brand loyalty 

Tim


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Akakubi said:


> E36 and E46, as well as Z-06's...on Hoosier's. :yikes: On tighter courses locally modded (CSP or SM) Miata's are very formidable. For the $$ and performance/fun factor you gain Miatas are the way to go.
> 
> I AutoX one also (stock so far, M-edition) and it is quick! Puts a lot more smiles on my face than my E46 tank.
> 
> Track is a different story however. :bigpimp:


E46 M3 is a WHOLE different beast than a E46 330. They may sort of look the same, but in performance, even on autoX they are two different worlds.

Compare the same level of modded CSP Miata versus ASP E46 M3. Or E36 BSP, and the M3s are faster. And the more open the course the faster they get. Yes you can find/design a course that a Miata will beat just about everything out there. But day in day out with equal drivers, the M3s are quicker.

Now an E30 M3 versus Miata in fulll CSP guise is a closer story.

Track though, no contest, M3 wins.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

tim330i said:


> My vote is for an E30 325is. I believe that is the sports package with factory limited slip diff. Not sure on car pricing but I would guess the parts are not as cheap as the Miata.
> 
> The great thing about an older car is that they are easier to work on and you can get parts easier new at local parts stores or at the junk yard. Also people start to get creative with older cars to make things run better which is always fun (if you like tinkering with crap).
> 
> ...


Yes the E30 is models came with limited slip and sports seats.

ANd yes, like all BMWs parts are not the cheapest.


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> E46 M3 is a WHOLE different beast than a E46 330. They may sort of look the same, but in performance, even on autoX they are two different worlds.
> 
> Compare the same level of modded CSP Miata versus ASP E46 M3. Or E36 BSP, and the M3s are faster. And the more open the course the faster they get. Yes you can find/design a course that a Miata will beat just about everything out there. But day in day out with equal drivers, the M3s are quicker.
> 
> ...


Agree, E46 M3 is indeed different from the regular E46, but not a whole lot more in terms of handling. I really wish they both were a lot lighter though, well under 3000lbs.  An E46 M3 that weighs >2700lbs will make an ultimate track/AutoX monster.

But when modding an M3, either one, vesrus a Miata, you start talking about huge $$. For a $4000 car you have to admit that the Miata beats just about anything out of the box at the AutoX. :angel:


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Akakubi said:


> Agree, E46 M3 is indeed different from the regular E46, but not a whole lot more in terms of handling.
> 
> But when modding an M3, either one, vesrus a Miata, you start talking about huge $$. For a $4000 car you have to admit that the Miata beats just about anything out of the box at the AutoX. :angel:


You don't seem to have spent much time with an E46 M3. They are WORLDS apart in handling. Different shock valving (stiffer, heck, different maker of the shocks Sachs versus Boge). Different spring rates (higher), different sway bars (larger), limited slip, different track width (wider), different ride height (lower). Body/chassis has more seam welding (stiffer). Sound like turning a street car into a race car?

As for modding them, OH YEAH, Miata parts are MUCH cheaper than E46 M3 parts. 

But at the track, and most autocross courses, a stock E46 M3 is faster than a reasonably modded Miata. Yes, you could make a Miata faster, but then it wouldn't be streetable Heck, it wouldn't be a Miata anymore than a PTG M3 GTR is an E46 M3.


----------



## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> Current Boston Chapter rules:
> 
> "CONVERTIBLES: All convertibles are required to have an approved rollbar and minimum four point safety harnesses for both driver and passenger. Three point lap belts will no longer be accepted. If we cannot find an instructor who is willing to accompany you on the track and you are not approved for solo driving, your entry fee will be refunded. It is the student's responsibility to have their convertible approved by the Driving Events Committee before coming to the track. "


Hmm. Either they've relaxed the requirements recently, or I'm remembering an instructor's recomendation. :dunno: At any rate, I still don't feel like dealing with an open track car. Maybe once I get into a better position to own one and start driving stuff I'll change my mind.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

cenotaph said:


> Hmm. Either they've relaxed the requirements recently, or I'm remembering an instructor's recomendation. :dunno: At any rate, I still don't feel like dealing with an open track car. Maybe once I get into a better position to own one and start driving stuff I'll change my mind.


I do remember seeing some chapters/organizers do require arm restraints in open cars.

These things vary and change.

I was looking for places that my wife could run the M Roadster. It becomes such a hassle (especailly since an SCCA legal roll bar for a Z3 based car has the support legs going back through the trunk lid) tht we have considered an M Coupe for her to run.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

kster said:


> Here in CA, convertibles with SCCA SOLO I legal rollbars are allowed on all the tracks. The only car club with additional requirements is BMWCCA. But since I'm driving a Mazda, I really don't care if I can't take my Miata to a BMWCCA track day.


It is funny, some tracks will not allow open cars at all for track days, but will allow them (of course) for racing.

And like happened at VIR, what was OK last month, could be not OK this month, aas they baned open cars for track days.

There are a lot of other groups that have less stringent rules. But realize they can change also.

Bottom line is though, a closed car can run anywhere. An open car, no matter what the setup, may not run in some places or with some groups.


----------

