# What are you paying for Diesel?



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Since we don't have our own forum, a new thread for you compression heads.

Gas prices still seem to be dropping, amazingly so. Today I saw Regular for around $2.29/gal. Premium was around $2.49 and Super was $2.59. Diesel, which had been about $0.10/gal more than regular, was now $2.59, same as super.

Now I know that should'nt be right, as we all know diesel is always cheaper to produce than gasoline, excluding taxes.

So what are you d's paying out there?:dunno:


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Gas prices are increasing in my neck of the woods. You will feel gratified that you aren't paying what we are. I just filled up one car with Chevron Premium at $3.359/gallon. A Vallero station down the street had ULSD at $3.199/gallon....


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## Marine5302 (Sep 13, 2009)

$2.79 for the oily stuff here.


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## Chrisdridley (Jun 29, 2009)

It depends what state I'm in. 
Gas and diesel are cheaper in Tennessee than in North Carolina. I filled up at a Shell station in Tennessee this morning for $2.449. Tonight I am in North Carolina and the Exxon across the street from my hotel has diesel for $2.59 and regular gas is $2.49.
Fuel prices are almost always lower in South Carolina than North Carolina as well.


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## RoBMWED (Aug 3, 2007)

*Gas price website*

Wow, Munich's Oktoberfest closing day was fun !

Where was I? Oh, yeh!

Another great thread, Flyingman!

I started researching diesel fuel prices because of the proverbial debate about fuel savings comparisons, so I use this website: http://gasprices.mapquest.com/

We will probably not arrange our trek from SC to the west coast based on fuel prices, but it will be interesting to see how divergent it is.

Of course, if we only have to fill five times :rofl:, it won't be difficult to be selective. :rofl:

Got to love that fuel mileage !!!!

I wonder if I should grab a marble and do that relay thing, too! :eeps:


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## ry63 (Oct 3, 2009)

$2.65/gallon here ... slightly less than premium petrol, which is $2.69. I'm only *looking* at diesel prices at the moment ... still have a few weeks to wait (patiently) until my new d arrives.


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## dakarm (Apr 1, 2002)

$2.99/gal which is still cheaper than a gallon of regular at $3.15/gal


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

dakarm said:


> $2.99/gal which is still cheaper than a gallon of regular at $3.15/gal


This is an example of how a monopoly can f**k you. dakarm is located maybe 50 miles from where I am and as a result can get diesel (and gas for that matter)~$0.20/gallon cheaper. If the price differential were greater, it would be worth the savings to drive to Danville to fill up....


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## tcolberg (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm getting it for about 2.70-2.83 here in Los Angeles. It's a good 20 to 30 cent saving over regular unleaded. Then again, these diesel prices aren't the average for LA, since I use Gas Buddy. Diesel is, however, consistently cheaper than regular unleaded for the moment.


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## TJG (Jul 4, 2009)

Here in the South West UK I'm currently buying diesel at $6.50 per gallon (1.08 GBP per litre). My on board computer tells me I'm averaging 37.1 mpg which eases the pain a little.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

At current exchange rates, $5.80 USD/gallon. 

But then again, 98E is around $7.50 USD/gallon.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

TJG said:


> Here in the South West UK I'm currently buying diesel at $6.50 per gallon (1.08 GBP per litre). My on board computer tells me I'm averaging 37.1 mpg which eases the pain a little.


Imperial or US gallons?


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

In Toronto Diesel is currently going for CAN$0.859/Litre or in US Gallon US$3.06/Gallon.
Regular Gas is now higher than Diesel @ CAN$0.939/Litre(US$3.35/US Gallon).
Premium gas is even higher @ CAN$1.071/Litre(US$3.82/US Gallon).

Cheers


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## andyffer (Jul 26, 2008)

it changes. Sometimes its less than regular and right now its a little cheaper than midgrade. But then somtimes it spikes above premium. It varies A LOT


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

*Ulsd*

I have a 335d on order. The car was in the paint shop yesterday and today is the end of production. I have the car delivered at the Performance Delivery Center in SC.

Anyway, my question is: How can you tell the diesel is ULSD? Is there a sticker on the pump.

Thanks

LM in Atlanta


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## TJG (Jul 4, 2009)

Patrick said:


> Imperial or US gallons?


US Gallons - I used a litre/Gallon conversion rate of 0.26417 and a GBP/USD conversion rate of 1.59.

Any how you work it, I'm being ripped off.


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## NCe61 (Jun 23, 2009)

NC has very high fuel taxes. Diesel here ranges from about $2.49 to $2.69. We try to fill up (gas or diesel) in SC when possible and save about 20 cents/gallon. We drove from the Keys to NC last week, and the highest diesel prices we saw were in Flyingman's area in south FL.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

TJG said:


> US Gallons - I used a litre/Gallon conversion rate of 0.26417 and a GBP/USD conversion rate of 1.59.
> 
> Any how you work it, I'm being ripped off.


Well, true.

Not only do we have high fuel costs here, but I have to pay an annual diesel tax: 450 Euros.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

montr said:


> I have a 335d on order. The car was in the paint shop yesterday and today is the end of production. I have the car delivered at the Performance Delivery Center in SC.
> 
> Anyway, my question is: How can you tell the diesel is ULSD? Is there a sticker on the pump.
> 
> ...


congrats on your purchase!

Pumps have been "required" to be labeled with the fuel they dispense for over 3 years now. you will still find unlabeled pumps in spite of this . You will also have diesel-heads tell you that all the diesel is ULSD regardless of labeling. This does not jive with the EPA program that requires all on-road diesel to be ULSD by Dec 2010. You can get more ULSD info here:
http://www.clean-diesel.org/index.htm

I suggest that you play it safe and fill only from pumps that are labeled as dispensing ULSD.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

lotsa fuel pricing info available here:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

I can't stress this enough: There is a huge variance in diesel fuel quality in N America. The best thing to do is to find a local source of high quality diesel in your area and *only *use that in your 335d/X5d. If this means driving out of your way to fuel up, then so be it. pogopop77 has posted a listing of premium diesel stations on this forum. hopefully he will check in here.

Most cases the only way to determine your diesel quality is to talk to the distributor your local station uses. Here are the two factors I believe most important for a high performance diesel engine.
Cetane of minimum 47. The diesel I have access to is minimum 50 cetane.
HFRR wear scar of 460 micron maximum. The ASTM spec for US diesel has a maximum wear scar of 520 microns. So you may need to use an additive to meet the tighter spec. I use 3-5% biodiesel to ensure this.


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## BMW_GAL (Apr 7, 2009)

So I have a question. The diesel around here is diesel #2. Is there a #1 somewhere? :dunno: Why is it considered Diesel #2?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

BMW_GAL said:


> So I have a question. The diesel around here is diesel #2. Is there a #1 somewhere? :dunno: Why is it considered Diesel #2?


D1 is basically kerosene.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

NCe61 said:


> NC has very high fuel taxes. Diesel here ranges from about $2.49 to $2.69. We try to fill up (gas or diesel) in SC when possible and save about 20 cents/gallon. We drove from the Keys to NC last week, and the highest diesel prices we saw were in Flyingman's area in south FL.


I'm always looking around at fuel prices, and it is amazing how much it can vary in a very short distance. Usually, the closer you are to the interstate, the higher it is, with a few exceptions. The nicer the neighborhood (like where I live) the higher it is. That is why I go over to the other side of the tracks to buy fuel. :bigpimp:

I can save about 10-15cents/gal just by looking around the neighborhood during my regular commute. But i generally always buy from the same station which is consitently competitive, not always the cheapest. I'm old school, and if I ever get a bad batch of fuel I know I will be complaining to the right place.

As I recall, the main difference in Diesel #2 and #1 is that #1 is for winter time as it has a lower cloud point (waxing). Something i really don't have to worry about in So Fla!

It is amazing how much our friends across the pond are paying. Just for shiz and grins I'm gonna look up some fuel prices in Venezuela. I recall paying like 8 cents/gal not too long ago.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

BMW_GAL said:


> So I have a question. The diesel around here is diesel #2. Is there a #1 somewhere? :dunno: Why is it considered Diesel #2?


There is a specification for what constitutes 'Diesel #2'. It gets into things like cloud point, ignition point, cetane rating and the like. Diesel #2 versus Diesel #1 is somewhat analogous to Regular unleaded (87 octane) versus Premium unleaded (91 octane) gasoline. They are fuels for a particular type of engine and each have distinguishing characteristics. Diesel #1 is generally used during winter months due the lower temperature at which it solidifies.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

d geek said:


> D1 is basically kerosene.


D1 is definitely not Kerosene. Close to it, but not the same. Here is one site that I found that gives some explanation of D1 versus D2 and Kerosene: http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/diesel_fuel.htm Go about 1/2 down the page in the Q&A section. Jet A is Kerosene that has been certified to a particular engineering specification. See http://www.csgnetwork.com/jetfuel.html for more information. If you are in a cold area with a load of Diesel #2 in your tank, you can add Kerosene to make the fuel resistant to solidification until you can fill with winterized Diesel (Diesel #2 that has had Diesel #1 blended with it).


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

anE934fun said:


> ....Diesel #1 is generally used during winter months due the lower temperature at which it solidifies.


my turn to correct you 
You never use straight D1 in a diesel engine. It is mixed with D2 in the winter time- it does not replace D2.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Gas Buddy, great website! http://www.miamigasprices.com/index...a=Weston&area=Davie,Plantation,Sunrise,Weston

Local Price Snapshot
Today 2.452 
Yesterday 2.432 
One Week Ago 2.461 
One Month Ago 2.611 
One Year Ago 3.610 
Trend

[Points Leaders]

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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

d geek said:


> my turn to correct you
> You never use straight D1 in a diesel engine. It is mixed with D2 in the winter time- it does not replace D2.


My bad. I neglected to say mixed or blended. Used implies 100% utilization.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

anE934fun said:


> D1 is definitely not Kerosene. Close to it, but not the same. Here is one site that I found that gives some explanation of D1 versus D2 and Kerosene: http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/diesel_fuel.htm Go about 1/2 down the page in the Q&A section. Jet A is Kerosene that has been certified to a particular engineering specification. See http://www.csgnetwork.com/jetfuel.html for more information. If you are in a cold area with a load of Diesel #2 in your tank, you can add Kerosene to make the fuel resistant to solidification until you can fill with Diesel #1.


:tsk:
OK. I found a link that says D1 is synonomous with Kerosene. What do you want to argue about now 

http://www.spragueenergy.com/documents/MSDS-Ultra_Low_Sulfur_Diesel_number1.pdf


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

d geek said:


> my turn to correct you
> You never use straight D1 in a diesel engine. It is mixed with D2 in the winter time- it does not replace D2.


d-geek. I think this may spark some debate. According to at least one website I was reading, they don't even offer #2 diesel after October in some of the colder regions.

I recall as a Mariner we had to use JP-5 (Jet Fuel) and add some lube oil to make up for the lubricity when we went too far North. There was no #2 Diesel available up North for the military installations. We were running CAT 3512's. Engine room was plenty warm, problem was the cold storage tanks in the hull. Saltwater can actually get below 32 deg F and still be liquid. But I think the problem was land transport with air temps well below Zero. Brrrr!

Why I'm happy here in So. Fla.:sabrina:


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> d-geek. I think this may spark some debate. According to at least one website I was reading, they don't even offer #2 diesel after October in some of the colder regions.
> 
> I recall as a Mariner we had to use JP-5 (Jet Fuel) and add some lube oil to make up for the lubricity when we went too far North. There was no #2 Diesel available up North for the military installations. We were running CAT 3512's. Engine room was plenty warm, problem was the cold storage tanks in the hull. Saltwater can actually get below 32 deg F and still be liquid. But I think the problem was land transport with air temps well below Zero. Brrrr!
> 
> Why I'm happy here in So. Fla.:sabrina:


When I was in the military back in the '80's we added 10% gasoline to keep our diesels running in Germany during the coldest months, and ATF or marvel mystery oil for lubricity. I wouldn't think about doing that in a modern deisel . How long ago were you at sea?

I've been driving diesels in Michigan since 2001. We use winterized D2 from mid-Oct to end of Mar. We do not use straight D1. :dunno:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

d geek said:


> When I was in the military back in the '80's we added 10% gasoline to keep our diesels running in Germany during the coldest months, and ATF or marvel mystery oil for lubricity. I wouldn't think about doing that in a modern deisel . How long ago were you at sea?
> 
> I've been driving diesels in Michigan since 2001. We use winterized D2 from mid-Oct to end of Mar. We do not use straight D1. :dunno:


Hmmm, let's see, I graduated in 1981, so was at sea from 81 to about 86, then I worked shoreside for another 7 years until 93. Since 93 I've been pretty much always in the tropics.

We should be able to provide some definitive position on what diesel fuel should be used and when.:thumbup:


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## tcolberg (Aug 7, 2009)

d geek said:


> lotsa fuel pricing info available here:
> http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
> 
> I can't stress this enough: There is a huge variance in diesel fuel quality in N America. The best thing to do is to find a local source of high quality diesel in your area and *only *use that in your 335d/X5d. If this means driving out of your way to fuel up, then so be it. pogopop77 has posted a listing of premium diesel stations on this forum. hopefully he will check in here.
> ...


How the hell do you talk to your gas station about the specifications about their fuel supply? :dunno: I'm pretty sure if I went up to the cashier's window and asked about fuel quality or cetane levels I would get blank stares.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

d geek said:


> :tsk:
> OK. I found a link that says D1 is synonomous with Kerosene. What do you want to argue about now
> 
> http://www.spragueenergy.com/documents/MSDS-Ultra_Low_Sulfur_Diesel_number1.pdf


Well, in the composition part of the data sheet, notice the different Chemical Abstract Service Numbers for Hydrodesulurized Kerosene (64742-81-0 with a variable quantity of 0 to 100%), Hydrotreated Distillate (64742-47-8 with a variable quantity of 0 to 100%), and Kerosene (8008-20-6 with a variable quantity of 0 to 100%). All three products fall within a class of petroleum distillates that covers a range of product names (and CAS #s). Are they chemically the same? I tend to doubt it; otherwise they would have the same CAS Number. Plus they have cut the blend of Kerosenes and Distillate with Napthalene, which was probably added to raise the Cetane number, but that is speculation on my part.

So, back to the original question - is D1 the same as Kerosene? I tend to doubt it, but Arctic_Cat could weigh in on the subject from a more informed perspective (Chemical Engineer).


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

tcolberg said:


> How the hell do you talk to your gas station about the specifications about their fuel supply? :dunno: I'm pretty sure if I went up to the cashier's window and asked about fuel quality or cetane levels I would get blank stares.


What language would you speak to them in, anyway!:dunno:


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

tcolberg said:


> How the hell do you talk to your gas station about the specifications about their fuel supply? :dunno: I'm pretty sure if I went up to the cashier's window and asked about fuel quality or cetane levels I would get blank stares.


true statement. you need to get ahold of the station owner/manager, who can either provide the distributor contact or get the fuel info for you themselves.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

tcolberg said:


> How the hell do you talk to your gas station about the specifications about their fuel supply? :dunno: I'm pretty sure if I went up to the cashier's window and asked about fuel quality or cetane levels I would get blank stares.


They might even call the police, thinking a robbery was in progress.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

A trusted source of info

FAQ

FUELS

Gasoline 
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Heating Oils 
Kerosene 
Other Fuels 
Commercial Fuel Services

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What is diesel fuel?
Diesel fuel is principally a blend of petroleum-derived compounds called middle distillates (heavier than gasoline but lighter than lube oil) and may or may not contain additional additives. Other middle distillates include kerosene and No. 2 Heating Oil. Diesel fuel is designed to operate in a diesel engine where it is injected into the compressed, high-temperature air in the combustion chamber and ignites spontaneously. This differs from gasoline, which is ignited in a gasoline engine by the spark plugs.

What specification requirements of diesel fuel should concern me and why?
Sulfur content, Cetane number (ignition quality), cleanliness, lubricity, low-temperature operability and stability are the diesel fuel requirements of principal concern to you.

With the introduction of the 2007 model year, diesel powered vehicles have to meet stringent emissions limits. The equipment used by vehicles to meet those standards depend upon a fuel with very low sulfur content, 15 parts per million (ppm) or less, referred to as Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). Use of LSD, with sulfur content that can be as high as 500 ppm, can, in a single tank full, permanently damage the emission control equipment of the new vehicles. We should note that ULSD is suitable for all diesel engines including those manufactured before 2007. All diesel dispensers have a decal on them indicated the type of diesel fuel being dispensed. Look for the ULSD decal for 2007 model vehicles and newer.

The cetane number is a measure of the ease with which the fuel is ignited in your engine. It is most significant in relation to low-temperature startability, warm-up and smooth, even combustion. The cetane number of the fuel should meet your engine manufacturer's minimum recommendation for the type of service. A cetane number higher than required does not materially improve engine efficiency or operation. Most engine manufacturers recommend diesel fuels with a cetane number of at least 40. Diesel fuels sold by reputable marketers meet or exceed this requirement.

Cleanliness refers to the absence of water and particulate contamination. This characteristic is important because dirt and water can plug fuel filters in your engine and cause severe damage to your fuel injection system because of the close tolerances within fuel pumps and injectors. All diesel engine manufacturers equip their engines with fuel filters to protect the fuel delivery system. You should replace these filters according to the manufacturer's recommendations. Some manufacturers also provide filters with drain valves and recommend periodic draining of any water that may accumulate from condensation and careless handling in storage or vehicle tanks.

Lubricity is the characteristic that ensures protection against fuel pump and injector wear. Since 2005 the use of lubricity additives has become common and all Exxon diesel fuels intended for over the road use contain them.

Low-temperature operability is the ability of the fuel to flow and to be pumped through diesel fuel system filters without plugging at low temperatures. Filter plugging due to the presence of wax crystals in the fuel can be estimated by measuring the cloud point temperature or other low temperature fluidity and filterability tests.

Stability is the term used to describe a fuel's resistance to the formation of gums and insoluble oxidation products. Fuels with poor oxidation stability contain insoluble particles that can plug fuel filters. This may lead to decreased engine performance or engine stalling from fuel starvation.

Is all diesel fuel sold at gas stations and truck stops in the U.s. now ULSD?
No. At present the EPA requires only 80% of the highway diesel fuel manufactured in the U.S. to be ULSD. Consumers may still find some LSD at services stations and truck stops until December 1, 2010 when EPA regulations will require all highway diesel fuel to be ULSD.

Does Exxon have ULSD available at all of its service stations?
No. At most Exxon retail locations where diesel fuel is sold, the product will be ULSD. However, some Exxon locations will still be selling LSD, particularly over the next several months as we make the transition from LSD to ULSD.

How will I know whether a pump is dispensing ULSD or the higher sulfur LSD fuel?
Federal regulations require all diesel fuel pumps to have labels specifying the type of fuel dispensed (except in California where all diesel fuel must be ULSD). Look for this decal.

What vehicles require ULSD?
Vehicles with diesel engines manufactured in the 2007 model year or later require the use of ULSD for proper operation. Using LSD or other improper fuel may reduce the efficiency and durability of engines, permanently damage advanced emissions control systems, reduce fuel economy and possibly prevent the vehicles from running at all. Additionally, manufacturer warranties are likely to be voided by improper fuel use.

How can I determine if my vehicle requires ULSD?
Instrument panel and fuel inlet/fill cap labeling is being mandated for 2007 and newer model year engines and vehicles that require ULSD fuel. Also, you can check yor owner's manual for vehicle fuel requirements.

Can I use ULSD in diesel engines manufactured before the 2007 model year? 
Yes. ULSD is acceptable for use in all diesel engines.

I have heard that removing the sulfur from diesel can cause problems in older engines. Is ULSD going to harm the engine in my pre-2007 diesel vehicle?
Some of the sulfur compounds naturally occurring in diesel fuel provide some wear protection or lubricity. To compensate for the sulfur removal in ULSD Exxon branded diesel fuel is treated with additives to improve lubricity. Customers can be confident in choosing exxon because our branded ULSD fuel meets ASTM D 975 diesel fuel specifications, which provide standards for lubricity, cetane number and other performance characteristics.

How will ULSD fuel affect air quality?
ULSD fuel enables the use fo cleaner technology diesel engines and vehicles with advanced emissions control devices. Even when used in older diesel engines ULSD is believed to result in lower vehicle emissions.

May I continue to blend No. 1 diesel with my diesel fuel to improve cold weather performance?
Only ultra low sulfur No. 1 diesel (No. 1 diesel with no more than 15 ppm sulfur) may be blended with ULSD fuel to improve cold weather performance. Kerosene should never be used to improve the low temperature operability of ULSD; its sulfur level is too high. In cold weather climates Exxon branded diesel fuels are blended with an additives in winter months to improve low temperature performance. This should eliminate the need for supplemental ULSD No. 1 blending in most circumstances.

Will ULSD affect the fuel economy of existing diesel cars, trucks and non-road engines and equipment?
Theoretically, fuel economy may be reduced slightly (about 1%) because the refining process that removes sulfur also can reduce the energy content of the fuel.

Is there a place I can go to get additional industry information on ULSD?
Yes. For additional industry information on ULSD you can go to the Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance's web site (www.clean-diesel.org).

How do I know which grade to use?
Most engines are designed to operate on ASTM No. 2-D grade, but some diesel engines in stop-and-go service require No. 1-D diesel fuels in order to perform satisfactorily. Follow the recommendations of the engine manufacturer and a reputable fuel supplier who recognize that some fuels may have special or additive-derived quality features. Be sure to use ULSD in 2007 model vehicles and newer.

What are some fuel-handling causes of poor diesel engine performance?
Contamination of fuel by water and dirt entering the fuel as a result of careless fuel handling may cause poor diesel engine performance. Extreme care must be exercised. Fuel-tank caps, dispensing nozzles and hoses should be kept clean to eliminate potential sources of contamination. Regularly removing water from storage tanks, vehicle fuel tanks, and filter bowls is important. Dry storage systems will reduce fuel emulsion problems, injection system corrosion and microbial growth.

Why do diesel engines smoke?
Diesel engine smoke is caused by incomplete combustion. White smoke is caused by tiny droplets of unburned fuel resulting from engine misfiring at low temperature. This smoke should disappear as the engine warms up. Black smoke could be caused by a faulty injector, insufficient air and overloading and/or over-fueling the engine. Blue-gray smoke is the result of burning lubricating oil and is an indication the engine is in poor mechanical condition.

Why was the sulfur content of diesel fuel reduced?
Ultra Low sulfur diesel fuels (less than 15 ppm) are required by federal regulations for 2007 model year highway vehicles to ensure that these vehicles will meet emissions standards to improve the quality of the air we breathe. In California, other properties of vehicular diesel fuel are also controlled to help reduce smog.

Do Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuels cause fuel system leaks?
When low sulfur diesel fuels were first introduced in some markets back in the 1990s, there was a rash of fuel injector O-ring failures causing fuel system leaks. The failures were limited to older vehicles and the problems have not recurred. The recent introduction of ULSD has not proven problematic.

How can I avoid having filter plugging problems?
Fuel filters can plug from a variety of causes. In the winter, small amounts of water or using fuel with inadequate low-temperature fluidity can cause filter plugging. At other times, common dirt and fuel distribution debris can cause filter plugging. And, if a fuel storage facility is not properly maintained, bacteria and algae can grow in the fuel and cause filter problems. With the exception of the fuel with inadequate low-temperature fluidity, all of these problems can normally be avoided by keeping the fuel storage system clean and dry. You should be sure to drain water accumulation frequently. That will obviously avoid icing problems in the Winter but will also minimize bacterial growth. Be sure to use dispenser filters when filling the vehicle tank.

How does water get into diesel fuel and what problems can it cause?
Water gets into diesel fuel storage and vehicle tanks in several ways - by condensation of humid air, during transportation from refineries to service stations, by leakage through faulty fill pipes or vents and by careless handling. Water can cause injector nozzle and pump corrosion, microorganism growth and fuel filter plugging with materials resulting from the corrosion or microbial growth. Both vehicle and storage tanks should be checked frequently for water and drained or pumped out as necessary. In extreme cases, biocides may be required to control microorganism growth. In cold northern winters, ice formation in fuels containing water creates severe fuel line and filter plugging problems. Regularly removing the water is the most effective means of preventing this problem.

What does the heat energy or BTU content of a diesel fuel mean?
The energy content of diesel fuel is defined by the amount of energy stored in one gallon. The higher the fuel's heat of combustion, the more power will be derived from each gallon of fuel consumed. Energy content is measured in British Thermal Units (BTU) per gallon and is related to the fuel's specific gravity and the temperature range at which it vaporizes. The BTU content per unit volume increases as the specific gravity increases. The BTU content of a unit volume (gallon or liter) of diesel fuel is higher than that of gasoline, and the BTU content of No. 2-D diesel fuel is generally higher than that of No.1-D diesel fuel. The BTU content of No. 2-D diesel fuel is typically about 130,000 BTU/Gal.

What factors affect power/fuel economy?
Engine design is the most important factor leading to power and fuel economy. However, fuels with a higher density like our Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel No. 2 will provide improved power and fuel economy compared to fuels with Diesel Fuel No. 1 blended into them.

What is low-temperature operability?
Low-temperature operability is a diesel fuel's ability to perform at low temperatures. All petroleum distillate products contain waxy materials, which, at low temperatures, can crystallize and plug fuel filters. The cloud point of the fuel measures the first appearance of the waxes, although filter plugging will not typically occur until the ambient temperature is 5° to 10°F below the cloud point. There are several approaches, both operational and fuel-related, to ensure proper operability in cold weather.

Vehicle-related approaches include the use of fuel heaters, keeping the engine running, parking the vehicle in heated areas, etc. Each of these is designed to keep the fuel warm, above the point where waxing occurs. But each of these approaches has obvious drawbacks, as well.

The low-temperature operability of the fuel can be adjusted in several ways, as well. Blending a No. 2 fuel with No. 1 can lower its cloud point; this has traditionally been the most common approach to dealing with winter operability. But, the use of Diesel Fuel No. 1 reduces power and fuel economy, and often is more expensive, so minimizing the amount of No. 1 Fuel in the blend is an important consideration. Another approach to reduce the filter plugging incidence is to use wax-modifying additives. These additives can give operability benefits equivalent to No. 1 Fuel blending without the power and fuel economy losses. Use of wax-modifying additives is generally the approach for ULSD No. 2.

Note that, especially early in the winter season, water buildup in vehicle tanks, when it freezes, can also plug fuel filters or fuel lines. If you experience filter plugging problems when the ambient temperatures are between 10° and 30°F, the most likely cause is water, not the fuel itself.

What should I do in the winter to adjust for the cold temperatures?
We recommend that you purchase a diesel fuel that has been winterized for your area by mixing it with Diesel Fuel No. 1 or low-temperature fluidity improver additives. Non-winterized diesel fuel will not generally cause problems as long as temperatures are at or above 10°F. The addition of about 15% to 20% Diesel Fuel No. 1 to Diesel Fuel No. 2 will reduce the cloud point of the fuel by about 5°F.

We offer winterized product in a majority of markets that experience severe weather conditions. If temperatures fall well below norms for the local area or you will be driving much farther north, additional Diesel Fuel No. 1 blending is recommended.

Why shouldn't I just use Diesel Fuel No. 1?
While Diesel Fuel No. 1 has an advantage in low temperature operability, there are some disadvantages, as well. The energy content of Diesel Fuel No. 1 is about 95% that of Diesel Fuel No. 2 and will provide a correspondingly lower fuel economy. Diesel Fuel No. 1 is also lower in viscosity and provides less lubrication for the fuel pump and fuel distributor.

What are the differences among diesel fuels, heating oils and kerosenes?
Diesel fuels, heating oils and kerosenes are all products distilled from crude oil. While they are similar, there are some critical specification and legal differences among the products that normally prohibits using them interchangeably. These differences come about because their respective applications differ; diesel fuels are used in internal combustion engines, heating oils in oil burners and kerosenes are used in lamps and non-vented heaters. In addition to these differences, the products are subject to different tax laws. A few of the differences are highlighted below.

Diesel fuels have cetane specifications to assess combustion properties in diesel engines. They are also exposed to outdoor temperatures and relatively fine filtration. The most common measure for low-temperature fluidity is the cloud point. Neither heating oils nor kerosines require cetane number or cloud point specs. In the United States, heating oils and kerosenes are not taxed as are over-the-road diesel fuels. To distinguish them, with a few exceptions, the IRS requires that they be dyed dark red.

How long can I store diesel fuel?
If you keep it clean, cool and dry, diesel fuel can be stored 6 months to 1 year without significant quality degradation. Storage for longer periods can be accomplished through use of periodic filtrations and addition of fuel stabilizers and biocides.

What effect does blending used lubricating oil into diesel fuel have on engine performance and fuel quality?
This practice is not recommended. It may adversely affect fuel quality features and could lead to fuel system and piston deposits, increased exhaust emissions and fuel-filter plugging. This practice may also result in the diesel fuel being out of compliance with state or federal regulations or other specifications.

Does diesel fuel color affect performance?
No. There is no relationship between natural diesel fuel color and such desirable diesel fuel qualities as heat content, viscosity, cloud point, cetane number or distillation range. Diesel fuel color varies with the crude source, refinery methods and the use of dyes. However, if the fuel color darkens appreciably during storage, this could indicate oxidation and/or contamination from dirt, water, or other sources, which can cause operational problems.

What is flash point?
The flash point of a fuel is the temperature at which vapors formed above the surface of the liquid fuel will ignite when exposed to an open flame under prescribed laboratory test conditions. Flash point has a negligible effect on engine performance but can be a significant fire hazard in the handling and storage of fuel. A low flash point temperature may indicate contamination of the diesel fuel with gasoline or other volatile materials such as alcohols.

What is diesel fuel lubricity?
Diesel fuel lubricity is a measure of diesel fuel's ability to reduce wear on contacting metal surfaces found in fuel pumps and injectors. In the case of diesel engines, fuel pumps and fuel injectors are lubricated by the fuel, so lubricity is a measure of a diesel fuel's ability to prevent wear in these parts.


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## RoBMWED (Aug 3, 2007)

*Hey, flyingman !*

Let's tighten this up and put it in the Diesel wiki !

Whaddaya think ?

Or maybe a tatoo !


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> ...Lubricity is the characteristic that ensures protection against fuel pump and injector wear. Since 2005 the use of lubricity additives has become common and all Exxon diesel fuels intended for over the road use contain them. ...
> 
> ...Customers can be confident in choosing exxon because our branded ULSD fuel meets ASTM D 975 diesel fuel specifications, which provide standards for lubricity, cetane number and other performance characteristics....
> 
> ...


Please note that in the US they are not required to meet the wear spec of the fuel that your BMW diesel was designed to use.

here's a Bosch presentation that was done before the fuel lubricity spec was finalized. 
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf
for whatever reason ASTM blew off Bosch and the Engine Manufacturers Association when they finalized the spec.


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## RoBMWED (Aug 3, 2007)

*d geek - I'm really serious.*

We need to put this source info into the bimmerfest Diesel wiki.

You guys got any ideas how to 1) condense these articles, 2) absolve copyright issues, 3) format the wiki ?

I suppose we could just take swatches from all of the posts for the time being ?!?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

I don't know how to make a wiki page, but would be glad to help out. I've collected many technical docs and articles over the years.


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## RoBMWED (Aug 3, 2007)

*Excellent !*

I don't know how to build a wiki either - but I know how I like to read them.

If you have any way of editing all of that material that you have collected into a document (or several) that would help the average BMW genius owner to better understand the facets of diesel fuel, engines, benefits, drawback, etc., that would be great.

Brief articles with references listed for expanded details should do the trick.

I think the only issue that might upset any-/everyone would be copyrights.

Let me know what you think. This might be a lot of fun ! We can PM this if you prefer.

I hope that anyone else interested in helping will get in touch with us !


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

d geek said:


> I don't know how to make a wiki page, but would be glad to help out. I've collected many technical docs and articles over the years.


I'm Wiki illiterate!:dunno: I know what Wikipedia is!


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## Chrisdridley (Jun 29, 2009)

$2.539 at a EXXON in Concord NC today.


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## Grentz (May 16, 2009)

$2.58 - $2.59 around here in MN.


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## swartzentruber (Sep 29, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> Gas prices still seem to be dropping, amazingly so. Today I saw Regular for around $2.29/gal. Premium was around $2.49 and Super was $2.59. Diesel, which had been about $0.10/gal more than regular, was now $2.59, same as super.
> 
> Now I know that should'nt be right, as we all know diesel is always cheaper to produce than gasoline, excluding taxes.


 Just wanted to reply to your comment above about diesel prices, as a former Jetta TDI owner (and having a past history of owning a diesel, I still kind of watch the prices). What you are observing is completely normal for America due to seasonality effects, and is exactly what I observed while owning a diesel. Gasoline tends to cycle down pretty quickly in early fall, once the summer driving season ends, as summer road trips tend to drive peak gasoline demand. Meanwhile, diesel prices stay stable or even increase in early fall, because diesel is very similar to home heating oil, and fall is the peak time for fuel oil production (i.e. need to fill up all the home tanks for the winter), and diesel competes with fuel oil for refinery production. Based on my observation, diesel prices tended not to peak (or start falling) until early winter (once fuel oil demand is fulfilled), well after gasoline prices fell.

So long story short, expect to observe this every year.


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## Grentz (May 16, 2009)

I have noticed the diesel prices are much more stable though. Earlier this year gas was spiking and diesel was constant.


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## swartzentruber (Sep 29, 2008)

Grentz said:


> I have noticed the diesel prices are much more stable though. Earlier this year gas was spiking and diesel was constant.


Yes, that is also very true based on my observations. Diesel demand in the US is mostly driven by semi-truck traffic, and that tends not to fluctuate nearly as much as passenger car driving. It does tend to trend long term based on the overall economy, and I do wonder if we will see diesel above premium again once the economy returns to normalcy.


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## 02 330Ci (Jun 9, 2008)

A point I wanted to make about ULSD and its lubricity, I know it says it is good for all diesels but that is not really true, in older diesels they depend on the heavier sulfur for both power and lubrication. You would want an additive in every tank I believe it would benefit new engines too.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

swartzentruber said:


> Yes, that is also very true based on my observations. Diesel demand in the US is mostly driven by semi-truck traffic, and that tends not to fluctuate nearly as much as passenger car driving. It does tend to trend long term based on the overall economy, and I do wonder if we will see diesel above premium again once the economy returns to normalcy.


agreed on the relative stability of diesel prices. not so sure about equating diesel>premium gasoline to "normalcy". If you look at the EIA site i linked to earlier, you can observe historic prices, and those are typically showing diesel to be much less than premium for a long time. It got switched around a couple of years ago. I would hope that normalcy would show the lower refining costs that should result in cheaper diesel.

I filled up my tdi tonight. Diesel was $2.52 and Premium was $2.56.


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## Grentz (May 16, 2009)

02 330Ci said:


> A point I wanted to make about ULSD and its lubricity, I know it says it is good for all diesels but that is not really true, in older diesels they depend on the heavier sulfur for both power and lubrication. You would want an additive in every tank I believe it would benefit new engines too.


New engines are designed for the ULSD though, so you should be fine using it as is.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

02 330Ci said:


> A point I wanted to make about ULSD and its lubricity, I know it says it is good for all diesels but that is not really true, in older diesels they depend on the heavier sulfur for both power and lubrication. ....


as a an older diesel operator, i can tell you that ULSD does fine for power. I believe the estimate is a 1% loss of energy content, so not enough to notice.

The process of removing sulfur also removes natural lubricity, which is compensated partly for with lubricity additive, but not enough for the standards i referenced earlier.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

I'm seeing prices around $2,40-2,49/US gallon for diesel ($0,63-0,66/litre). Premium varies widely by locality.


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## dakarm (Apr 1, 2002)

anE934fun said:


> This is an example of how a monopoly can f**k you. dakarm is located maybe 50 miles from where I am and as a result can get diesel (and gas for that matter)~$0.20/gallon cheaper. If the price differential were greater, it would be worth the savings to drive to Danville to fill up....


you're gonna be really mad when i tell you that the price at Chevron and at the Arco it's 15-20cents cheaper (gas and diesel). about 1/8th of a mile away from each other.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

*Check out this website*

http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/diesel/index.html

Why are diesel fuel prices higher than gasoline prices?

Historically, the average price of diesel fuel has been lower than the average price of gasoline. However, this is not always the case. In some winters where the demand for distillate heating oil is high, the price of diesel fuel has risen above the gasoline price. Since September 2004, the price of diesel fuel has been generally higher than the price of regular gasoline all year round for several reasons. Worldwide demand for diesel fuel and other distillate fuel oils has been increasing steadily, with strong demand in China, Europe, and the United States, putting more pressure on the tight global refining capacity. In the United States, the transition to ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel has affected diesel fuel production and distribution costs. Also, the Federal excise tax on diesel fuel is 6 cents higher per gallon (24.4 cents per gallon) than the tax on gasoline.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

*And for you folks in the land of fruits and nuts!*

Why are West Coast diesel fuel prices higher and more variable than others?

Diesel prices on the West Coast, especially in California (CA), are relatively higher than other regions of the country, partly because of taxes, but mainly because of supply issues. The State of California assesses a combined State and local sales and use tax of 7.25 percent on top of the 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax and an 18.0 cents/gallon State tax. Washington's tax of 34 cents/gallon is one of the highest in the country. Besides taxes, West Coast retail prices are more variable than others because there are relatively few supply sources: 21 of the 36 refineries located in West Coast states are in CA. California refineries need to be running at near full capacity just to meet in-state demand. If more than one refinery in the region experiences operating difficulties at the same time, the diesel supply may become very tight and prices may spike. The West Coast's substantial distance from Gulf coast and foreign refineries is such that any unusual increase in demand or reduction in supply results in a large price response in the market before relief supplies can be delivered. The farther away the necessary relief supplies are, the higher and longer the price spike will be.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> Why are West Coast diesel fuel prices higher and more variable than others?
> 
> Diesel prices on the West Coast, especially in California (CA), are relatively higher than other regions of the country, partly because of taxes, but mainly because of supply issues. The State of California assesses a combined State and local sales and use tax of 7.25 percent on top of the 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax and an 18.0 cents/gallon State tax. Washington's tax of 34 cents/gallon is one of the highest in the country. Besides taxes, West Coast retail prices are more variable than others because there are relatively few supply sources: 21 of the 36 refineries located in West Coast states are in CA. California refineries need to be running at near full capacity just to meet in-state demand. If more than one refinery in the region experiences operating difficulties at the same time, the diesel supply may become very tight and prices may spike. The West Coast's substantial distance from Gulf coast and foreign refineries is such that any unusual increase in demand or reduction in supply results in a large price response in the market before relief supplies can be delivered. The farther away the necessary relief supplies are, the higher and longer the price spike will be.


Setting aside supply or demand disruptions, CA taxes have to be the highest of any of the western states. Add in supply disruptions and the S.F. and S.F. peninsula monopoly and you have a recipe for having your wallet raped every time you buy gas or diesel.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I think another major factor in the price we see here in the US, is the value of the dollar. Don't for a second believe the international barrel of oil is really based on the $US. I am certain it is a basket of international currencies including the Euro.:freakdanc


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## swartzentruber (Sep 29, 2008)

d geek said:


> agreed on the relative stability of diesel prices. not so sure about equating diesel>premium gasoline to "normalcy".


 Read it again  I didn't say diesel above premium was normal, I said we may see diesel above premium again (meaning as it has been for the past few years) when the economy returns to normal. Historically, you are absolutely correct about the relationship, but see above for a good explanation on why relatively expensive diesel may be the new normal


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## ZymurgyBMW (Sep 27, 2008)

I have had a diesel van for 5 years. I live in Ohio and what I have noticed is that diesel never fluxuates like gas. Every year when the demand for gas goes up, typically near Memorial day, summer vacations start and gas prices pass diesel. As the summer goes on, gas usually peaks and diesel creeps up usually past premium, then they come back down in the fall too. When most people in the US were talking about $4.00 gas 2 summers ago, diesel hit $5.00( I know everyone overseas wish that was what they were paying)


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## joeincs (Sep 15, 2009)

Here is my contribution to this thread. Yesterday i drove from Coral Springs Florida to Clearwater Florida and back. Total trip was 526 miles. THe trip was about 98% highway. I set the cruise at 80mph and had a couple of quick bursts to 100 passing some folks. I paid $2.59 gallon at my local BP. Cost was the same as mid-grade gasoline. I got 33.6 MPG for the trip. I have about 4500 miles on the car.


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## adeberti (Sep 23, 2005)

SF BayArea....

diesel $2.89 --- for our truck
Premium $3.39 ---- for the BMW


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## Marine5302 (Sep 13, 2009)

I just filled up today at a Sunoco station. I usually use Exxon. I had to use the diesel funnel as the pump nozzle was too large. Just a warning for those who haven't used the funnel yet. I had no problems while my tank was filling but when it did finally fill, man did I get a lot forced out just as the pump clicked off! All down the side of the car. 

On a lighter note, the looks I got from the truck drivers as I pulled up was priceless. They all had that "dumbass" look on thier face that went to a look of shock when they thought I was putting diesel in a petrol car. Some guy in a lifted F-150 was passing by after gassing up and stopped, got out of his pickup and said, "Is that a diesel?" I told him it was and he asked what the horsepower was. I told him and added what the torque was and his eyes bugged out. He said, "Man, that must be fast!"


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

joeincs said:


> Here is my contribution to this thread. Yesterday i drove from Coral Springs Florida to Clearwater Florida and back. Total trip was 526 miles. THe trip was about 98% highway. I set the cruise at 80mph and had a couple of quick bursts to 100 passing some folks. I paid $2.59 gallon at my local BP. Cost was the same as mid-grade gasoline. I got 33.6 MPG for the trip. I have about 4500 miles on the car.


Joe, we have been trying to locate you! There are two of us here, I'm in Weston and another in Sunrise. Try and connect up!


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

both premium gas and diesel were $2.62 at my favorite fuel station (Wacker's in Manchester, MI) last friday.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Miami today, Diesel $2.59, Super $2.69, Premium $2.59, Regular $2.39.

Diesel seems to generally equal Premium, +- $0.10.


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## ry63 (Oct 3, 2009)

Manchester NH today: diesel $2.59 to $2.69; premium $2.59 to $2.69. Exactly the same, or within a cent or two of each other, at every station I passed.

Another upward pressure on the price of diesel is the increased costs to produce the Ultra Low Sulfur variety. This will put a short-term increase on prices as all stations transition to ULSD by the end of 2010. Some estimates say the production costs for ULSD adds up to $0.25 per gallon.


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## slugdriver (Dec 30, 2005)

Gents,

For the risk of being flamed - cut an *FNOB* (f'n new oil burner) a break - what brand of diesel are you filling your tanks with. In preparation for taking delivery of my baby, I've been recon'ing filling stations. Here in the NoVa area Shell, Texaco, Sunoco, and Exxon all sell diesel. That said Shell and Sunoco have it available at the most locations.

Thanks ahead,

-Slug


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

d geek said:


> both premium gas and diesel were $2.62 at my favorite fuel station (Wacker's in Manchester, MI) last friday.


last night the same station had D2 for $2.92 and premium for $2.90. B20 was $3.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

slugdriver said:


> Gents,
> 
> For the risk of being flamed - cut an *FNOB* (f'n new oil burner) a break - what brand of diesel are you filling your tanks with. In preparation for taking delivery of my baby, I've been recon'ing filling stations. Here in the NoVa area Shell, Texaco, Sunoco, and Exxon all sell diesel. That said Shell and Sunoco have it available at the most locations.
> 
> ...


note that diesel fuel quality can vary greatly. I would do my best to talk to station managers/owners to find our what cetane their fuel has.

pogopop77 is compiling a list of known high quality diesel stations.


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## 335diesel (Jul 27, 2009)

£1.05 per LITRE over here - that's £4.77 per gallon (using 4.54609188 litres as a gallon) or about $7.90 per gallon!!!

I'm going to have a little cry...

However our diesel does seem to generally be a higher grade as is our petrol.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

It seems like the recent spike in oil prices made a lot of petrol prices jump.

Premium goes anywhere from $2,79-2,89/ US gallon ($0,74- $0,77 per litre). Diesel is around $2,63/US gallon ( $0,70/litre).


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm in north carolina. In my travels through my state and around the east coast I have yet to see premium diesel.
Has anyone found premium diesel on the east coast?
If so, in what state/city, at which brand station, and how much is the price difference compared to non-premium at the same station?
TIA


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Looks like gasoline is heading upwards.

Filled up yesterday here in South Florida, $2.83/gal for regular. Diesel was just $0.05 more at $2.88/Gal. Premium was around $2.95 and Super was well over $3.00/gal.

The barrel of oil was around $78.:bawling:


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## 335diesel (Jul 27, 2009)

Now well over $8.50 a gallon here...


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Still running around $2.60 to $2.75/gal.

By the way, has anyone ever found Shell V-Power Diesel here in the US? I've seen it in Latin America, but never here.

V-Power Diesel
This section requires expansion.

V-Power Diesel is an enhanced diesel fuel, designed for modern diesel engines, to offer enhanced performance along with increased engine protection, for more consistent operation and engine longevity.[2][opinion needs balancing]

It is a blend of regular diesel and synthetic diesel created using GTL (Gas-to-liquids), along with some extra additives designed to clean the injection system and improve injector lubricity.

One characteristic of V-Power diesel is that it is a lot clearer and odorless than normal diesel, mainly due to the synthetic GTL component.

The fuel is slightly less dense than regular diesel so, per volume, the unit energy is actually lower than regular diesel. This is offset as the fuel tends to burn more readily (And thus has a higher cetane rating) than regular diesel, and a side benefit of this is that it tends to produce less soot during combustion.

Anecdotal evidence shows that its performance varies depending on how an engine is set up. In most cases, it will make a rough-sounding engine run noticeably smoother and can also alter the performance characteristics; Typically some low-end torque is lost but performance in the middle of the rev range and above is increased. In some engines however, particularly well-tuned common-rail turbo diesels, very little effect can be seen or felt.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

My last 6 fillups have all been $2.699 except a couple days ago for Shell Premium, their sign said $2.599 when I pulled in but the pump said otherwise and paid $2.659. All fillups have been with Shell Premium or at least that is what the big sign on the road said, I have not filled up at the Shells that just say Diesel.

I saw a news clipping online that said that V-Power Diesel is available in Canada as well.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

335diesel said:


> Now well over $8.50 a gallon here...


My last fill (yesterday) with Chevron D2 was at U.S. $3.039/gallon.

EDIT: At the same station, unleaded regular was 3.039/gallon and premium was 3.239/gallon.


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## mecodoug (Nov 30, 2007)

I want the 335d. But I drive 25,000 highway miles per year. At $2.80 for premium and diesel, and at 28 mpg (330) and 36 mpg (335d) the savings are only $600 per year. So, economically it doesn't cover the 335d premium.

On the other hand, I think the 335d will be WAY more fun to drive, so I'll probably still go for it. I wish we had more d choices in the USA though.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

EnterTheDragon said:


> 87 is the minimum on the 328, 89 on the 335. The manual specifically says "There is no effect on engine life"


Engine life, perhaps, but there's a distinct difference in performance. And, I wouldn't recommend putting in 87, anyway. Gonna call BS on them putting 87 in the manual, too...not very bright.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Why is it not bright? If the motor is designed to work with 87 then no need for people to spend more than they should. One of my old Mercedes the prior owner had been putting 89 octane in it for years because he thought that is what the cars called for and swore it ran better. I followed his lead for a long time until one day I was sitting in the car waiting on my wife and I read the entire owners manual. Plain as day in there it said 87 octane gas so I switched to that for the last couple of years I owned it and I never noticed any difference. So I am not saying the 328 says one way or the other since never read the manual or anything into it before. Now when I had one for a week I do remember the gas cap saying premium fuel only so I assumed it needed higher octane but suppose "premium" could mean quality as in brand/additives and octane.


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## Stugots (Jan 1, 2010)

Because using poorer quality gas is going to affect a higher performance engine regardless, and performance is diminished by a lower octane level, anyway.

I mean, if you want to put 87 octane in your precision German automobile and you're comfortable with that, more power to you (akin to putting Arco Diesel in your d, imo).

My 328 never saw a day less than 91 in its tank.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Running higher octane gas in a motor that is not designed to run on it can in the long run cause problems although in all my years I only know of one example of that damage actually happening. It is not about it being a "precision German automobile" it is about what is the engine designed to run on and running it on that. I know if you go to a Chevron that the only difference between their 87 and 93 octane fuels is the octane level itself, you still get all the same additives with either grade. So you still end up with a quality fuel and not really the same as going and buying Chevron diesel as to compare say Acme diesel. The Chevron is a better burning fuel and has additives in it but the non name brands typically do not which is why they are cheaper and why they lead to build up on the valves after years of usage. 

But again I have no clue what the 328 is suppose to be ran on and the brief time I had one I just assumed it needed the higher octane fuel and was not going to go researching it since was not even my car.


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## Malkavian (Jan 26, 2010)

$2.85.. Premium is $2.86, HA!


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## Dennis328i (Apr 5, 2007)

From the 2007 3-Series Manual:

"Super Premium Gasoline/AKI 91
This gasoline is highly recommended.

However, you may also use gasoline with less AKI. The minimum AKI Rating is:
323i, 328i/xi: 87
335i: 89

If you use gasoline with this minimum AKI Rating, the engine may produce knocking sounds when starting at high outside temperatures. This has no effect on the engine life."

It also goes on to talk about using high quality fuels/brands to prevent performance problems.

That said, I still agree with Stugots. I've always used 91 with an occasional tank of 89 in my 328i.

BTW - Diesel here in the DFW area averages about $2.78.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

Just paid $2.85 at Gulf.Premium was a couple of cents less.There was a neaby mongrel station that had a cash price of $2.82.No thanks on that!


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

anE934fun said:


> One could argue that there is some convergence between diesel and premium unleaded pricing in San Mateo county.


Here in the Northeast (particularly New England) lots of homes heat with oil.My experience so far (since last July) is that in the warmer weather diesel is close to regular's price but goes up,pretty much in tandem,with heating oil starting in Oct/Nov.I'm hoping that this is a regular cycle...paying "regular" price in warm weather and "premium" price (or a few pennies more) during the cold weather.If I'm correct than it could be a national (or maybe even worldwide) thing because I doubt that there's a huge demand for heat around SF.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

listerone said:


> Here in the Northeast (particularly New England) lots of homes heat with oil.My experience so far (since last July) is that in the warmer weather diesel is close to regular's price but goes up,pretty much in tandem,with heating oil starting in Oct/Nov.I'm hoping that this is a regular cycle...paying "regular" price in warm weather and "premium" price (or a few pennies more) during the cold weather.If I'm correct than it could be a national (or maybe even worldwide) thing because* I doubt that there's a huge demand for heat around SF.*


Au contraire. We sun bunnies get cold too. It is just at a higher temperature than Nanook of the North gets cold at. We also predominantly have natural gas forced air heating, so there isn't the heating demand pushing diesel prices. We just have to deal with a garden variety monopoly driving prices in my neck of the woods.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

With rising fuel prices thought it would interesting to see where prices are shaking out across the nation. I for one saw a new all-time high for me since owning my d. The Shell down the road from my house, which I use with frequently listed a price of *$4.10* per gallon! :yikes:


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## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

$4.25/gal in San Diego.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Still around $3.79 for me down here, I am sure it will start to trickle up soon if it is for other people in the country.


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## stoked335d (Jan 4, 2010)

Diesel has been holding at $3.75 for past 2 months at Shell by me(NJ). The premium gas was around $3.59 but now up at $3.89.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

$3.89/gal since fall. Premium gas is around 3.69-3.79


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

$3.93 at a Citgo station near the office.....Premium is $3.79 at the same station.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

m6pwr said:


> $4.25/gal in San Diego.


How does that compare to Premium?


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

cssnms said:


> The Shell down the road from my house, which I use with frequently listed a price of *$4.10* per gallon!


What does Premium cost at that same station?


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## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

listerone said:


> How does that compare to Premium?


The current price for premium here is about 15 cents/gal cheaper than diesel. That difference has remained constant for quite a while.


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## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

I might add a few comments to my previous post: Our first diesel was a VW TDI wagon. When we got it in Aug '09 the price for ulsd was about the same as regular where I live - - around$2.90/gal or thereabouts. It has steadily increased to where it now is now consistently the most expensive fuel you can buy for a highway/road vehicle. Why? A thread on the BITOG oil forum a while ago seemed to indicate that the main reason is demand - - not demand for diesel here in the U.S. but demand for diesel just about everywhere else in the world where about 70+% of the vehicles on the road use diesel. In 2011 the number 1 U.S. export (of any commodity) was oil. I bet most of that went on to be refined as diesel. Apparently there is a very big demand for diesel in China and in the developing countries in South America. Look at the Keystone XL pipeline (what a can of worms). According to several newspaper accounts I've read (New York Times, L.A. Times, USA Today), all the oil that will ultimately be refined in Texas from the product (referred to as "dilbit" or diluted bitumin - - an industry euphemism for toxic petro-sludge) in that pipeline is pre-sold to countries abroad. None of it will be used to fuel cars in America.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

Right now given the rise in prices, diesel is priced on both sides of premium petrol. In most places it's right around $3,89/US gallon ($1,03/litre), some places are less, some are more. For comparison, premium is anywhere from $3,79 to $4/US gallon ($1-1,05/litre).


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I paid the highest ever at $4.099/gal last Friday.

Their street sign said $4.039 but the pump was $4.099.

I could find $3.999/gal but needed to fill up then and there.

My feeling is it is going to continue going up with all the tension in the middle east.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

I filled up today even though I had half a tank. One station hadn't raised their prices and it was still at 3.79(Giant GetGo). All other stations are between 3.95 and 3.99.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

Flyingman said:


> My feeling is it is going to continue going up with all the tension in the middle east.


That, plus for me at least, the fact that NC adjusts its petrol tax every 6 months. With wholesale prices rising, that means a petrol tax hike every 6 months. NC has one of the highest taxes in the nation.

At least the roads are good, and they're building new roads........like Europe I guess? NC does have the most mileage of state-owned/maintained roads.


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## firstbimmer (May 25, 2006)

Been averaging close to $4.35-4.39 the past couple weeks here in northbay. Premium is about.$.30-.40 less. Still worth the diesel since I drive 700-900 miles a week.


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## 4pipes (Aug 4, 2006)

$4.29 here in the South Bay.


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## The Swede (Feb 20, 2011)

Converted to USD I payed pretty much exactly 8 USD a gallon here in Sweden for MK1 ACP-Diesel. You are lucky over there in the States (and still you are wining ). On the other hand, it's the high fuel prices here in Europe that have puched carmakers like BMW to develope and manufacture such good and effective engines.


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## cas (Nov 22, 2006)

*diesel prices*

Here in northeast PA about 4.09 a gallon.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Just filled up with Shell "fuel saver" regular diesel. £1.429 / litre about $8.51 / gal-US.

Paste Shell (UK) Ltd, Mona Road, Menai Bridge, United Kingdom into Google maps to find it.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

The Swede said:


> Converted to USD I payed pretty much exactly 8 USD a gallon here in Sweden for MK1 ACP-Diesel.


Given that the cost of refining and delivering a litre of fuel can't be much different in Sweden than in the US the difference at the pump must be due (largely,at least) to taxes.Your politicians must be blamed for that.



The Swede said:


> On the other hand, it's the high fuel prices here in Europe that have puched carmakers like BMW to develope and manufacture such good and effective engines.


At last month's Detroit Auto Show Mercedes displayed a diesel hybrid E Class which,they claim,gets 4.1L/100km for mileage and features a combined 550 ft lbs of torque.This car is going to be sold in Europe in March but not in the US.In spite of my hatred of hybrids (on philosophical terms) I'd almost certainly buy *this* one if it were offered here.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

currently $3.99.


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## FlyingLow78 (Jul 28, 2011)

Current price on base is $1.039 per liter. Off base it's £1.40 per liter.


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## The Swede (Feb 20, 2011)

listerone said:


> Given that the cost of refining and delivering a litre of fuel can't be much different in Sweden than in the US the difference at the pump must be due (largely,at least) to taxes.Your politicians must be blamed for that.


Well, most of the petroleum products sold in Sweden are refinded from Norwegian oil. Oil that is sold for 118 USD/barell compared to the american oil sold for 101 USD/barrel. But yes still, much is taxes too. Our politicans want to speed up the change from an oildriven society to a society with transportation based on more environmental products that we can produce here in Sweden like cheep electricity, biogas, biofuels (from the forests) etc. A coutry with large distances and a small population like Sweden would be very harmed if the oilprice rocketed to like 500 USD/barrel or if the world would hit an oilcrises or war.

But of course, it's not that fun to drive and pay between 8 and 9 USD/barrel. But then most cars here gets like 40-45 MPG. The car I had when I lived in the US got like 18-20 MPG. So the average mileage-cost is still the same.



listerone said:


> At last month's Detroit Auto Show Mercedes displayed a diesel hybrid E Class which,they claim,gets 4.1L/100km for mileage and features a combined 550 ft lbs of torque.This car is going to be sold in Europe in March but not in the US.In spite of my hatred of hybrids (on philosophical terms) I'd almost certainly buy *this* one if it were offered here.


Because of the higher diesel/petrol prices here we got a larger spectrum of smaller/more fuel efficient engines to choose from.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

listerone said:


> At last month's Detroit Auto Show Mercedes displayed a diesel hybrid E Class which,they claim,gets 4.1L/100km for mileage and features a combined 550 ft lbs of torque.This car is going to be sold in Europe in March but not in the US.In spite of my hatred of hybrids (on philosophical terms) I'd almost certainly buy *this* one if it were offered here.


Unless the price was just obscene then I'd be the first in line for a hybrid diesel. Yet hybrid gas vehicles, MBZ is bringing a hybrid gasser to the States, have zero appeal to me.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Unless the price was just obscene then I'd be the first in line for a hybrid diesel.


If this vehicle was reasonably priced you'd have to duke it out with me to be first in line.



Snipe656 said:


> Yet hybrid gas vehicles, MBZ is bringing a hybrid gasser to the States, have zero appeal to me.


Agree 1000%.The only reason I'd consider this car is the 55mpg COMBINED WITH the 550 ft lbs of torque.


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

4.11 today


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## A8540TDI (Jan 2, 2011)

3.959 for Shell diesel, 4.059 for PUG


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## 831Doug (Dec 20, 2011)

At Valero in Santa Cruz, diesel is $4.05 and premium is $3.95. Prices are all over the map in the Bay Area. The Shell near my office in South San Jose had diesel at $4.29 today!


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## SennaVProst (Apr 9, 2011)

$3.99 at Sunoco


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## grapes87 (Feb 22, 2011)

Diesel hasn't moved much in the last few months, but gas has shot up.

PUG is now more than Diesel locally.


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## ductman (Dec 17, 2011)

Paid 3.73 yesterday, same station today is 3.79.


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