# Tiered MF Rates?



## eagleeye (May 11, 2004)

It would be very helpful to receive more information on this topic. This could make a big difference during the negotiation process. I'm in the process of trying to secure an X5 in So Cal. When I brought up the topic of tiered rates - on CA in Orange County told me I was wrong; no such program was in place. However, the CA also insisted that the "buy" money factor on the X5 35i Sport Activity (36 mo) was .00240, instead of the .00230 listed within this forum, so who knows...


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## zgaspen (Apr 29, 2010)

When I ordered in April, I was told there was a .0004 swing for 740+ credit. For 15,000 miles, 36 mo, 2011 x5 35d i was given .0027. In May, when rates changed (residual went from 55 to 56%), I was told they no longer had varying "buy" money factors and .0027 was going to be it. But then again, when I last spoke to my CA on the 28th, he mentioned June rates could be better (as a positive note while they continue to have no clue when my car will arrive). Reading here, however, I see folks mentioning May rates are good until June 30.


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## thethethe (Jan 22, 2010)

the sponsers are terrible!!!!
they won't answer our question if MF are indeed tiered.


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

thethethe said:


> the sponsers are terrible!!!!
> they won't answer our question if MF are indeed tiered.


+1

Need clear answers. Or maybe Tarry from Leasecompare knows something as well.


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## want_a_7 (Apr 4, 2006)

thethethe said:


> the sponsers are terrible!!!!
> they won't answer our question if MF are indeed tiered.


Wow, what a comment about people who pay for this site to be available to everyone. Did you consider it was the end of the month on a busy weekend? It is not their job to put out all of the info. I am sure if you contact one by email or pm with a specific question on a car you want to buy you would get your answer.:thumbdwn:


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## thethethe (Jan 22, 2010)

want_a_7 said:


> Wow, what a comment about people who pay for this site to be available to everyone. Did you consider it was the end of the month on a busy weekend? It is not their job to put out all of the info. I am sure if you contact one by email or pm with a specific question on a car you want to buy you would get your answer.:thumbdwn:


well this thread was started on Tuesday before the long weekend. also, i see sponsers answering other questions on this forum. it just seems like they are ignoring this one on purpose.

:thumbdwn:


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

want_a_7 said:


> Wow, what a comment about people who pay for this site to be available to everyone. Did you consider it was the end of the month on a busy weekend? It is not their job to put out all of the info. I am sure if you contact one by email or pm with a specific question on a car you want to buy you would get your answer.:thumbdwn:


Did you know about the confidential pricing on F10 being taken OFF the 5post forum? 
Dig that, and you may be forced to wonder about the other side of it too.

Kudos to the sponsors though! They make so much of info available and the BMW community through the fests, unbeatable!


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## caveatesq (Jun 23, 2005)

This question has been answered over and over again on this forum. Try a search!


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## Syntax (May 18, 2010)

want_a_7 said:


> Did you consider it was the end of the month on a busy weekend?


I doubt that's the reason.


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## thethethe (Jan 22, 2010)

.


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## eagleeye (May 11, 2004)

The question has not been answered with any sort of certainity. I've searched. I'm ready to pull the trigger on an X5 right now, but I'm trying to obtain more clarity on this issue. I have a CA in So Cal telling me directly that tiered money factors do not exist. Is the CA uninformed or lying? Yes, I'm in the process of reaching out to other dealers. My potential payment could be $40 less per month - $1440 over the life of the lease. I called BMWFS and they won't give any specifics related to money factors. She thought credit scores were considered - but was not sure, stating that only the dealers know. Really? Why the lack of transparency? I appreciate all the information that's posted on this website - a lot of us take it for granted - so there's no need to start demanding answers. However, I am starting to read between the lines given the silence on the topic and that a potential profit center may have been uncovered.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

caveatesq said:


> This question has been answered over and over again on this forum. Try a search!


+1

For those who are unsure, you can always just get your car from a sponsor - in fact, this is highly recommended.


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## davidc1 (May 1, 2008)

caveatesq said:


> This question has been answered over and over again on this forum. Try a search!


This question has NOT been answered! Sponsors are conspicuously silent on this. Perhaps fearing reprimand from BMWFS, perhaps not. If it's been answered, pls kindly repeat the answer for those of us that are a bit slow.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

thethethe said:


> the sponsers are terrible!!!!
> they won't answer our question if MF are indeed tiered.


Really?  :wahwah: It's sponsors like us that keep this website running. Plus, I don't post as much because of curmudgeons like you. Please put me on your ignore list. I'll put you on mine.

And for the record, tiered rates are regional, so they can vary by region. Plus, tiered mf's are usually used for models that aren't eligible for sales support rates which surprise- there's not a single 2011 model that doesn't have sales support lease mf's, so what's the big fuss about? Geez. I might add that there's this little disclosure at the bottom of every bulletin:

"The contents of this distribution are confidential and should not be shared with third parties for distribution."

So if you're working for a company and they issue a bulletin, are *you* going to comply or break out confidential company information to the public? Jus sayin'.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

adrian's bmw said:


> And for the record, tiered rates are regional, so they can vary by region. Plus, tiered mf's are usually used for models that aren't eligible for sales support rates which surprise- there's not a single 2011 model that doesn't have sales support lease mf's, so what's the big fuss about? Geez. I might add that there's this little disclosure at the bottom of every bulletin:


For other folks - this info has already been posted, more than once... Best thing is to search by the sponsors' names/handles, and you will have their responses.


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## thethethe (Jan 22, 2010)

adrian's bmw said:


> Really?  :wahwah: It's sponsors like us that keep this website running. Plus, I don't post as much because of curmudgeons like you. Please put me on your ignore list. I'll put you on mine.
> 
> And for the record, tiered rates are regional, so they can vary by region. Plus, tiered mf's are usually used for models that aren't eligible for sales support rates which surprise- there's not a single 2011 model that doesn't have sales support lease mf's, so what's the big fuss about? Geez. I might add that there's this little disclosure at the bottom of every bulletin:
> 
> ...


 I would never put you on my ignore list. You are the best for answering my question. 
Obviously I know sponsers are awesome with All the info they put out. I was just tryingto make a post that would catch some attention to answer my question.


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## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

thethethe said:


> the sponsers are terrible!!!!
> they won't answer our question if MF are indeed tiered.


This is highly inappropriate, the sponsors don't have to tell us anything. When they do it generally makes us tougher negotiators taking money out of the deal and they are paying bimmerfest for this privilege ! :yikes:


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## bmrowe (Aug 9, 2007)

adrian's bmw said:


> Really?  :wahwah: It's sponsors like us that keep this website running. Plus, I don't post as much because of curmudgeons like you. Please put me on your ignore list. I'll put you on mine.
> 
> And for the record, tiered rates are regional, so they can vary by region. Plus, tiered mf's are usually used for models that aren't eligible for sales support rates which surprise- there's not a single 2011 model that doesn't have sales support lease mf's, so what's the big fuss about? Geez. I might add that there's this little disclosure at the bottom of every bulletin:
> 
> ...


Even with sales support .00195 is significantly lower than the base .0023 on a 2011 335i.


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## eagleeye (May 11, 2004)

I moved on to a new CA in So Cal - a bimmerfest legend and sponsor (I believe). He informed me via e-mail that there's no money factor discount for higher credit scores. So I have to assume that at least in my "region" - .0023 is the best I can do on an X5 Sport Activity. :banghead: 

Obviously, I'd like to receive .00195 instead of .0023. :thumbup: 

Since my order won't be done till July, I guess there's always hope the lease program gets better. If anyone has had a different experience, please let me know, I'm ready to pull the trigger soon. Thanks.


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

I do not understand the point of not having clear answers on this issue. A buyer has every right to ask how much he is paying in interest and why it is so. One party is not expected to keep some secrets before making a business transaction. At the time of credit application, they take every single detail about you which can probably be enough for someone from outerspace to locate you on the planet.

Could be that the MFs are not tiered in CA, maybe they are. We don't know. Some believe they are, and even if they are not, it is hard to know the truth, because information is not provided by BMWFS in writing. I would expect every single detail to be revealed when the deal is signed, base rate etc. saying it depends on credit score in these following states and not in the rest of the states (if that is the case) and here are your numbers . BMWFS may keep it to themselves, they don't need to provide you a copy. 


Something is messed up. BMWs are great cars, business model of BMWNA and BMWFS are perhaps still not transparent enough. Drives me crazy how the dealer has complete control and BMWFS will not say a word.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

xerovelocity said:


> Something is messed up. BMWs are great cars, business model of BMWNA and BMWFS are perhaps still not transparent enough. Drives me crazy how the dealer has complete control and BMWFS will not say a word.


So you think BMWFS should be legally required to disclose how much they borrow money for, and how much they make lending it to you? Good luck on that one. Feel free to also add the profit margin on the acquisition fee while you're at it.


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## TXPearl (Apr 16, 2010)

xerovelocity said:


> I do not understand the point of not having clear answers on this issue. A buyer has every right to ask how much he is paying in interest and why it is so. One party is not expected to keep some secrets before making a business transaction. At the time of credit application, they take every single detail about you which can probably be enough for someone from outerspace to locate you on the planet.
> 
> Could be that the MFs are not tiered in CA, maybe they are. We don't know. Some believe they are, and even if they are not, it is hard to know the truth, because information is not provided by BMWFS in writing. I would expect every single detail to be revealed when the deal is signed, base rate etc. saying it depends on credit score in these following states and not in the rest of the states (if that is the case) and here are your numbers . BMWFS may keep it to themselves, they don't need to provide you a copy.
> 
> Something is messed up. BMWs are great cars, business model of BMWNA and BMWFS are perhaps still not transparent enough. Drives me crazy how the dealer has complete control and BMWFS will not say a word.


While I want as much information as possible about invoice pricing, base lease money factors, etc., I' don't view it as my right to have access to that information. What other business provides you with precise details of their cost structure so that you can know exactly where and how much they are profiting?


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

chrischeung said:


> So you think BMWFS should be legally required to disclose how much they borrow money for, and how much they make lending it to you? Good luck on that one.


Oh did I imply that? :dunno:

All I meant was, they can mention what is the "Base Rate" THEY CHARGE. Like we see on this forum, floating around, ON WHICH dealers add a markup which is dealer's profit.

Why would I want to know what BMWFS pays in interest? I am only talking about what they charge us, and if it is tiered (or not), why not put it on paper?


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

TXPearl said:


> While I want as much information as possible about invoice pricing, base lease money factors, etc., I' don't view it as my right to have access to that information. What other business provides you with precise details of their cost structure so that you can know exactly where and how much they are profiting?


It is not about BMWFS profit, it is about the disconnect between BMWFS and Customer, in which your dealership also kicks in to make things more interesting.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Why do you want to know how much the dealer makes? If you want to know that, why wouldn't you want to know how much BMWFS makes? It's like saying you care about how much Kroger buys their Coke for, but not how much it costs in delivery to the store.

The only reason I can gather for your interest is marked up cost. As such, you need to understand the COMPLETE supply/value chain - not just 1 facet. So the dealer makes $1000 on you. BMWFS could be making $3000 on you (highly likely between the acq fee and Fed to bank lending rates). All you care about is that $1000?. Penny smart, Pound foolish.


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

chrischeung said:


> Why do you want to know how much the dealer makes? If you want to know that, why wouldn't you want to know how much BMWFS makes? It's like saying you care about how much Kroger buys their Coke for, but not how much it costs in delivery to the store.
> 
> The only reason I can gather for your interest is marked up cost. As such, you need to understand the COMPLETE supply/value chain - not just 1 facet. So the dealer makes $1000 on you. BMWFS could be making $3000 on you. All you care about is that $1000. Penny smart, Pound foolish.


There is 100s of dealers to choose from, you can make your being penny smart 'worth', BUT there is only one BMWFS, unless you are going through a completely different Leasing company (not even sure how it works). And if we go to that extent in our comparisons, then what you saidabout COMPLETE supply/value chain speaks volumes.

If we are with BMWFS without other options, it brings me back to - do we know in the first place what are the BMWFS offerings in terms of MF? And tiered or not? Hypothetically, BMWFS gives MF of '190' to guy with score of 740+ but dealer says base rate is still '230' and with min. markup you get '245'. (I am having to re-iterate what is the main worry of the buyer).

I am sure someone is looking at this thread with that Popcorn/Movie icon (except there isn't any on bimmerfest) :thumbup:


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

1 highly recommended example - www.leasecompare.com

I wish you well on your quest to save at the most $1 per day before taxes (or thereabouts on a $50,000 car). Personally, my time is slightly more valuable.

This may be sacrilegious, but I *knowingly *paid more for my latest car than I did my last (with the same CA), and did not even attempt to find a better deal even though I had read of better deals. I like my CA, his service, and I didn't want to waste my or his time.


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

chrischeung said:


> 1 highly recommended example - www.leasecompare.com
> 
> *I wish you well on your quest to save at the most $1 per day before taxes (or thereabouts on a $50,000 car). Personally, my time is slightly more valuable.*
> 
> This may be sacrilegious, but I *knowingly *paid more for my latest car than I did my last (with the same CA), and did not even attempt to find a better deal even though I had read of better deals. I like my CA, his service, and I didn't want to waste my or his time.


I think that was uncalled for. I never asked you to indulge in a discussion here. If posting on forums is a waste of time, I would not understand the reason for so many posts that show up on your profile.

I am not a stingy bugger trying to save a $1 a day, I would not be buying/driving a BMW if I was. It is about information and mis-information. I would still not close my eyes and go to my CA to buy my cars, though I would not shop around either. It is about trust and service and not just like an eatable we can pick up from a supermarket aisle. I don't see any reason why I frustrated you into saying this. No hard feelings on my side. Thanks for a discussion! :thumbup:


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## bmrowe (Aug 9, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> 1 highly recommended example - www.leasecompare.com
> 
> I wish you well on your quest to save at the most $1 per day before taxes (or thereabouts on a $50,000 car). Personally, my time is slightly more valuable.
> 
> This may be sacrilegious, but I *knowingly *paid more for my latest car than I did my last (with the same CA), and did not even attempt to find a better deal even though I had read of better deals. I like my CA, his service, and I didn't want to waste my or his time.


A money f actor of .0023 vs .00195 is a savings of over $40/month on a $55k car for 36 months. Thats $1440 alone. While not a huge amount of money, I'd rather have that money in my pocket than in the dealer's. And it might take what, an extra ten minutes of research to keep that money? That is just common sense.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

xerovelocity said:


> I am not a stingy bugger trying to save a $1 a day, I would not be buying/driving a BMW if I was. It is about information and mis-information. I would still not close my eyes and go to my CA to buy my cars, though I would not shop around either. It is about trust and service and not just like an eatable we can pick up from a supermarket aisle. I don't see any reason why I frustrated you into saying this. No hard feelings on my side. Thanks for a discussion! :thumbup:


Here's my point. Reading Adrian (and other's) posts, I see this as asked and answered.

Just say there is a different rate in the Western region, perhaps California, or just Los Angeles. Or even another rate just at your dealership. The MOST a dealership can mark up the MF is 0.0004. I can't see how in 10 minutes you will find this info out as *bmrowe *is saying. Say you can't - you just lost $1 a day. Not a big deal - in my book.

If the markup of MF irks you, don't even look into the CSI bonus payment to the dealership. It's bigger than the MF markup at 0.004 for those dealerships that get it.

I post here because I honestly truly enjoy it and the community, and do hope to offer advice that will help MOST people. I'm all for looking at invoice pricing, leasecompare's rates, and reasonable profit to craft an offer. Personally, I also use model cycle timing and work with a CA I trust. But beyond that, I honestly think marginal benefits outweighs marginal efforts.


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## M2audioman (Jan 16, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> Here's my point. Reading Adrian (and other's) posts, I see this as asked and answered.
> 
> Just say there is a different rate in the Western region, perhaps California, or just Los Angeles. Or even another rate just at your dealership. The MOST a dealership can mark up the MF is 0.0004. I can't see how in 10 minutes you will find this info out as *bmrowe *is saying. Say you can't - you just lost $1 a day. Not a big deal - in my book.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I can't understand how you justify your logic. Why would I pay over $1000 more for a car over 3 years if I don't have to? I like to buy or lease cars every few years so if my mentality was like yours, i'd be throwing away thousands of dollars for no reason at all. I'm completely aware that not every purchase people make will be financially intelligent, but when it comes to big ticket purchases, I think it is beneficial to be well informed and waste as little as possible, even if that means doing a bit more research.

I need to feel like I got the best deal possible. If I knowingly did not, then I would have made a poor purchase decision...


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## bmrowe (Aug 9, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> Here's my point. Reading Adrian (and other's) posts, I see this as asked and answered.
> 
> Just say there is a different rate in the Western region, perhaps California, or just Los Angeles. Or even another rate just at your dealership. The MOST a dealership can mark up the MF is 0.0004. I can't see how in 10 minutes you will find this info out as *bmrowe *is saying. Say you can't - you just lost $1 a day. Not a big deal - in my book.
> 
> ...


With the tools available at this forum, 10 minutes is a conservative estimate. I had the info I needed to negotiate a lease in less than 5. If your opportunity cost of 5 minutes is greater than $1500, all the power to you. I did the quick research in my office at work so I'm not even sure I can calculate a good opportunity cost at that time -- unless I start trading stocks at my desk (which would take longer than 5-10 minutes anyway).


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## bmrowe (Aug 9, 2007)

335audioman said:


> With all due respect, I can't understand how you justify your logic. Why would I pay over $1000 more for a car over 3 years if I don't have to? I like to buy or lease cars every few years so if my mentality was like yours, i'd be throwing away thousands of dollars for no reason at all. I'm completely aware that not every purchase people make will be financially intelligent, but when it comes to big ticket purchases, I think it is beneficial to be well informed and waste as little as possible, even if that means doing a bit more research.
> 
> I need to feel like I got the best deal possible. If I knowingly did not, then I would have made a poor purchase decision...


Also, when you are informed, it makes the purchasing process a whole lot more efficient. I handled all my conversations through email, and had a 30 minute talk or so to seal the deal once I was comfortable with the offer.


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## ///M Rakete (Apr 1, 2002)

chrischeung said:


> This may be sacrilegious, but I *knowingly *paid more for my latest car than I did my last (with the same CA), and did not even attempt to find a better deal even though I had read of better deals. I like my CA, his service, and I didn't want to waste my or his time.


I've done that. It was well worth it. The relationship has long term value.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

bmrowe said:


> With the tools available at this forum, 10 minutes is a conservative estimate. I had the info I needed to negotiate a lease in less than 5. If your opportunity cost of 5 minutes is greater than $1500, all the power to you. I did the quick research in my office at work so I'm not even sure I can calculate a good opportunity cost at that time -- unless I start trading stocks at my desk (which would take longer than 5-10 minutes anyway).


OK - so you tell us. What are the tiered MFs in California that *Xerovelocity *is trying to find? I honestly don't think I can find them in 10 minutes. Remember - he/she is not referring to the rates that Tarry/leasecompare posts.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

335audioman said:


> I need to feel like I got the best deal possible. If I knowingly did not, then I would have made a poor purchase decision...


You must get called some pretty choice words as you leave the dealership to go to the next to have them beat their offer. But there are many people who value their time more than money. I'm now one of them. But if all you care about is the best deal, I'd be wary how you go about it.

Why did I knowingly pay more? Because I like my CA. I want him to stay in his job, since if he lost it, then I would have to find another one - and they likely will not be as good. It will end up costing me more. I know - because it has happened TWICE to me. The person I ordered from was not the person who delivered my car. And there were issues. Apart from wasting my time, both were unpleasant experiences - not really what I want to associate my BMW purchase with.

One thing my CA told me - he can tell when folks are fishing (ie. using the Rizzo method) - and he deliberately raises the offer price to those folks. Why? Because he CANNOT afford not to, since the sales conversion rate is really poor for the work that needs to be done. If he is doing this, then isn't it likely that all the CAs that you ask for their best offer is doing the same? C'mon - you don't think they know you are fishing? Resulting in less than ideal offers?

But if someone comes along with a genuine and sincere offer, and my CA feels very confident the deal will go through, no matter how low his profit, he will try his best to meet the offer. I know I get excellent deals - always. But have I gotten the best deal in the Bimmerfest community - I'm almost 100% sure I didn't. But I'm not going to spend my time trying - it wouldn't be worth it. For me to try and get it would mean burning my relationship with my CA - and that is far more valuable than any chance I can get at saving at most $300 (based on my research and what I know). Because once I go to another dealership, shopping an offer, that relationship with my CA would be over - it would be worthless.

I figure there is a 1% chance I left $1000 on the table in some obscure tiered MF rate in California that I'm unaware of, and that board sponsors say has no effect. I'm willing to take that risk and not be at all bothered by it.


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## xerovelocity (Apr 23, 2010)

chrischeung said:


> OK - so you tell us. What are the tiered MFs in California that *Xerovelocity *is trying to find? I honestly don't think I can find them in 10 minutes. Remember - he/she is not referring to the rates that Tarry/leasecompare posts.


I did not start the thread, neither did *thethethe* who was furious about not seeing any answers on the forum. This is a more than non-significant question for most BMW buyers. I am sure there are many more people interested in this thread.

True, can't find the answers in 10 minutes. :rofl:



335audioman said:


> With all due respect, I can't understand how you justify your logic. Why would I pay over $1000 more for a car over 3 years if I don't have to? I like to buy or lease cars every few years so if my mentality was like yours, i'd be throwing away thousands of dollars for no reason at all. I'm completely aware that not every purchase people make will be financially intelligent, but when it comes to big ticket purchases, I think it is beneficial to be well informed and waste as little as possible, even if that means doing a bit more research.
> 
> I need to feel like I got the best deal possible. If I knowingly did not, then I would have made a poor purchase decision...


As most dealers on bimmerfest say, little money saved is still some money saved (it was a time when a 2010 and a 2011 with same MSRP were only differing by $1000 over 36 months). Being financially intelligent, $1400 looks small on a daily expenditure basis, but is still a significant amount.

If asking the right question on forums like this one can make us save that money, worth the effort and wait for some people who are not rushing into any deal or purchase decision.

Not sure if I completely agree with the best possible deal concept. Reasonable when we are looking at ~$500 margin. I believe that's what you are referring to here.

As everyone would agree (hopefully), at a certain point you stop caring about that $200 - $300 that you will save by ditching one dealership and taking business elsewhere. Not to mention hours and hours wasted in trying to squeeze that margin to smallest level, which may not even result in any savings at all. Not worth it IMO



chrischeung said:


> You must get called some pretty choice words as you leave the dealership to go to the next to have them beat their offer. But there are many people who value their time more than money. I'm now one of them. But if all you care about is the best deal, I'd be wary how you go about it.
> 
> Why did I knowingly pay more? Because I like my CA. I want him to stay in his job, since if he lost it, then I would have to find another one - and they likely will not be as good. It will end up costing me more. I know - because it has happened TWICE to me. The person I ordered from was not the person who delivered my car. And there were issues. Apart from wasting my time, both were unpleasant experiences - not really what I want to associate my BMW purchase with.
> 
> ...


Agree with sticking to your CA philosophy. A business relationship is a vital component of a purchase/lease. They are experienced people, they make a living out of that, nobody else would know better than them about the intentions of a new customer when he/she come in. How much extra can be paid over and over, while still being with the same dealership is a bit fuzzy and more of a personal decision IMO.

It was interesting, that you mentioned the CSI Bonus that dealerships get, why would we care about how much dealerships make from other sources. The sole point of discussion is the connect/disconnect between Dealership (lack of documentation available from BMWFS, if at all) and the Customer on a given Lease Deal. If my trusted dealership gets $1000 (per car sold i think?) as bonus for ratings the customers gave them, that would only please me further and take me to the dealership again and again.

All in all, it is about minimizing your own expense while getting a legit deal, and not about minimizing the dealer's gain from all different sources.


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## davidc1 (May 1, 2008)

*This may be sacrilegious, but I knowingly paid more for my latest car than I did my last (with the same CA), and did not even attempt to find a better deal even though I had read of better deals. I like my CA, his service, and I didn't want to waste my or his time.*

Chris, I understand that. But there's a huge difference between knowingly paying more and paying more without knowing. I want to do the former. I don't want to be taken. Hence the questions.


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## erdoran (Feb 29, 2008)

David said it perfectly. There's a big difference between "I know your true markup is $x and I'm willing to pay that because I value your services and our relationship" and being lied to and BS'd in order to get a profit. If a CA is honest with me and deals with me like that, it's a very quick decision and if the markup is acceptable I'll continue to do business with him. I am even willing to pay a slight premium for honesty and excellent service--it's knowing I'm not being taken advantage of that I value!

As to "what other business has to expose their internal cost structure?" my response is "what other business routinely lies, BSs, inflates prices, and gouges whenever possible?" I am NOT referring to individual CAs, ESPECIALLY board sponsors who I have found for the most part are legitimate and honest, nor am I referring to my most recent deal--but for every CA like these exceptions, there seem to be far more for whom the NORM is to gouge customers, sneak in extra profit whenever possible (ie we'll sell it to you for $x above our cost--and then bury additional profit in the drive-off which was tried on me). Life would be much easier all around if this wasn't the case.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

davidc1;5235051Chris said:


> You're missing my point. I'm not saying deliberately ignore information. I'm saying sometimes the complete picture is not worth the effort.
> 
> No one can ever know if they got the best deal. For them to do that, they would have had to have negotiated the best price with every dealership, and every individual sales manager at that dealership, at the most vulnerable point of time for that sales manager.
> 
> I choose not to play that game. But as I said, for those that think it beneficial, please go for it.


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## bmrowe (Aug 9, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> OK - so you tell us. What are the tiered MFs in California that *Xerovelocity *is trying to find? I honestly don't think I can find them in 10 minutes. Remember - he/she is not referring to the rates that Tarry/leasecompare posts.


Thats not my exact point. My point is that within 10 minutes of research, you would know that tiered money factors exist. You would then bring that to the table during your discussions with your CA and say something like 'I've heard about tiered money factors, how can these affect my purchase?'. The car purchasing process is a negotiation, and having all the information you can reasonably collect is never a bad thing.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

erdoran said:


> David said it perfectly. There's a big difference between "I know your true markup is $x and I'm willing to pay that because I value your services and our relationship" and being lied to and BS'd in order to get a profit. If a CA is honest with me and deals with me like that, it's a very quick decision and if the markup is acceptable I'll continue to do business with him. I am even willing to pay a slight premium for honesty and excellent service--it's knowing I'm not being taken advantage of that I value!
> 
> As to "what other business has to expose their internal cost structure?" my response is "what other business routinely lies, BSs, inflates prices, and gouges whenever possible?" I am NOT referring to individual CAs, ESPECIALLY board sponsors who I have found for the most part are legitimate and honest, nor am I referring to my most recent deal--but for every CA like these exceptions, there seem to be far more for whom the NORM is to gouge customers, sneak in extra profit whenever possible (ie we'll sell it to you for $x above our cost--and then bury additional profit in the drive-off which was tried on me). Life would be much easier all around if this wasn't the case.


There's a big difference between a client who asks about the minutae about a lease and one who does not.

Like any other business, you explore (not exploit) every profit opportunity no matter how small or big. But let it be known- no major news announcement here- *some* customers lie (about price, their trade, their credit, downpayment, etc.), BS, make low ball ridiculous offers, and try to swindle dealers whenever possible. Believe me, I know. I do this everyday.

The vast majority of people buying a car are on a *monthly* budget. The maximum mark up in a money factor, for example, only affects a very small percentage of the overall monthly payment, but it doesn't break the monthly budget if you're still spending $500-$1,200 a month on a car. If one can spend that kind of money out of their budget, there shouldn't be a contentious issue with the dealer trying to earn a modest profit from executing a lease. That's expressly my opinion. Flame suit on. (and it's made of asbestos *wheezing*)


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Thanks Adrian. And for those who don't know, Adrian is one of the top producing BMW salespersons in the USA - so he does know what he is talking about.

I'm going OT, but remember one thing - a CA, in a business transaction, is not your friend. They are an employee of the dealership, and have an obligation to best represent the dealership. Saying that, there is no reason not to be frank, up front and professional.

Instead of trying to identify and negotiate every profit center, my approach is to convince the CA it is in their best interest to deal with me honestly and openly. It has worked for me - I've never discovered something after the fact that was deliberately used against me from my current CA. And remember this, to CAs, first impressions count. I like my first impression to be a phone call, or appointment. How you want to do it with your CA is up to you.

Finally, I don't purposely overpay, unless it's deliberate. But I don't let the fact that I may have overpaid get me down. I think of money as not something that is used - but something that is fluid. When I buy a BMW, I'm not using money, I'm redistributing it. And if you have more than you need...

I'll sign off now.


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## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

: popcorn: Interesting that in one thread one can clearly see the differences in buyer personalities and motivation***8230;to each its own.

Back on topic***8230; Is there a tiered program being offered by FS? The answer is yes/no and come July 1st definitely a YES. 

FS offers two different lease programs; 
1. Sales support rates aka SSRs; these are the leases you see posted daily. These rates are fixed. It is not credit score driven. You are either approved or you are not. Some call these subverted rates because they are normally lower than your standard regional programs. 99.99% of the time dealers***8217; quotes are based of their regions SSRs. 100% of the time a rate lock is based on SSRs. 

2. Regional programs/standard rates or non SSRs are credit score driven. Standard programs are tiered. Standard programs are very rarely used because there usually are SSRs for most years and models. Standards rates are usually higher than SSRs. For example the MF for a MY11 for someone with a +740 FICO is .00230***8230;739-700 FICO is .00235 (west region). 

There are only two models not being supported by FS***8230;MY10 760li and MY10 X6 Hybrid. All MY11 have SSR support. So if you were planning on leasing a MY11 X5 Premium the best you can do is .00230 because .00230 is the SSR for the MY11 X5 premium. 

* All lease rates are subject to markup***8230;markup will vary by dealer. 

Finally, on July 1st FS will be changing their SSRs to a tiered program. It will be credit score based. It will no longer be the same for everybody even if you are approved by FS. Someone with a 675 fico will not get the same rate as someone with a 740 fico. Times are changing.


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## thethethe (Jan 22, 2010)

i'm assuming that if u were preapproved before the tiered MF come into play and your credit is terrible, you'll still be locked with the pre july 1 rates?

how does this work in a cosigning lease. will they use the credit score of the cosigner?


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## M2audioman (Jan 16, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> You must get called some pretty choice words as you leave the dealership to go to the next to have them beat their offer. But there are many people who value their time more than money. I'm now one of them. But if all you care about is the best deal, I'd be wary how you go about it.
> 
> Why did I knowingly pay more? Because I like my CA. I want him to stay in his job, since if he lost it, then I would have to find another one - and they likely will not be as good. It will end up costing me more. I know - because it has happened TWICE to me. The person I ordered from was not the person who delivered my car. And there were issues. Apart from wasting my time, both were unpleasant experiences - not really what I want to associate my BMW purchase with.
> 
> ...


Actually, I do NOT get called "choice words" as I leave a dealership. As an informed buyer, i'm not trying to screw a dealer. I'm simply spending the time to find out what kind of prices people are paying for a vehicle, and walking into the negotiating table with all my facts in order. I never waste a sales person's time. If they are a few hundred dollars off from my ideal number, but i liked the service, then i'd definitely buy since I also believe in building long term business relationships in both my personal and professional life. Also, I want to have a high level of service after the sale in case of issues down the road. For you to assume that a buyer who wants the best deal possible would automatically be called names by a sales person says a lot about your mentality...

What you consider a "sincere" offer, I call an "informed" offer. However, my offer would be backed up my money factors, residuals, actual cap cost, mileage considerations, etc. I walk in with a fully prepared sheet so that as we start the process, I know how to direct the negotiation. At the end of the day, both sides need to feel good about the deal or it wont make business sense. That doesn't mean you need to overpay to get that feeling. You simply need to be informed and that will earn the respect of your CA equally..


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

335audioman said:


> I need to feel like I got the best deal possible. If I knowingly did not, then I would have made a poor purchase decision...


I strongly doubt that you can achieve "the best deal possible" with the strategy you have outlined. I think you do get very good, perhaps excellent deals. I define "best" as being a deal that cannot be beaten by any other dealer or sales manager within the same metropolitan area within that month. I also never get the "best" deal.

But I personally think the only way to find out the "best deal" for each dealer is to work your way to the point just before signing, then leave to get that offer beaten at the next dealership - at which point the "choice" words come in - from the finance manager, sales manager and client advisor. The same process is followed at every dealership until the best deal is found. And there is no way to tell if another Sales Manager at the same dealership would have done better - some SMs are more aggressive than others.

OK, let me ask this - how are you sure the next dealer won't better your deal by $50? I'm always surprised when I hear people who ask the CA/FM/SM if they got a good deal or not - suprirsingly, they are all told they did . The only likely way to see if you got the best deal is to look at all the indivdual sales figures that BMW distributes. And I think those are only available to certain people within BMW centers. And then who knows if there were any factors like trade in etc.


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## M2audioman (Jan 16, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> I strongly doubt that you can achieve "the best deal possible" with the strategy you have outlined. I think you do get very good, perhaps excellent deals. I define "best" as being a deal that cannot be beaten by any other dealer or sales manager within the same metropolitan area. I also never get the "best" deal.
> 
> But I personally think the only way to find out the "best deal" for each dealer is to work your way to the point just before signing, then leave to get that offer beaten at the next dealership - at which point the "choice" words come in - from the finance manager, sales manager and client advisor. The same process is followed at every dealership until the lowest deal is found.
> 
> OK, let me ask this - how are you sure the next dealer won't better your deal by $50? There comes a point where effort and morality transcend benefit and pride.


As stated in my post, if i like a dealer's/CA's service and feel the deal is reasonable, then I would pay the few hundred more. I'm not looking to save $50. Will I pay $500 more than what I consider to be the best deal based on my research? Perhaps. Will I pay $1000 more? Probably not since that to me is too great of an amount to pay.

Oh...and let's not forget the most important part to all this. A dealer can always say no to a deal if they don't think it makes sense for them. When I bought my Z4M Coupe back in 2007, one dealer came down about $8K from MSRP after a lot of negotiation, but I found that people were getting much more off than that. I found a similar car at another dealership, made him an offer that was $12,600 below MSRP since I saw people were getting about $12K-$13K off msrp at the time. Without any negotiation, he agreed to the deal and I completed it the same day.

Bottom line is know the market, know your numbers, and make an offer based on that. If you are a few hundred off, but like the service/dealership relationship, then all is well. Otherwise, go to another dealership.


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## M2audioman (Jan 16, 2007)

To clarify my definition of best deal..

What I mean is a deal that is in an appropriate range of the prices people are paying my my area. For example, if the best price I've seen for a 335I with the options I want in my area is $50K, with a number of people paying in the $50K-$51K range, then I'm going to shoot for $50K and possibly end up somewhere in the middle of that range. So my apologies on not being clear about this. It's all relative to each person's mentality about a purchase, but I personally will shoot for a number close to the lowest price i've seen. 

I also work from invoice minus any rebates/promotions as a base when negotiating. If it's a previous year model (i.e. 2010), then i'll shoot for maybe another grand below that price. If it's a 2011, then i'll shoot for invoice or a few hundred higher depending on the car. This would probably work for 3 series cars, but not for new models like the 5 series, so i also consider those variables as well. 

I'm sure many board members would agree with me on this as being the proper way to go about it...


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

335audioman said:


> I found a similar car at another dealership, made him an offer that was $12,600 below MSRP since I saw people were getting about $12K-$13K off msrp at the time. Without any negotiation, he agreed to the deal and I completed it the same day.


Why wouldn't you have offered $13K or even $13.5K off if you knew of similar deals having occurred in the $13K off range?

The only reason I can see based on what you have said, is that if your car was specc'd lower than other cars that were specc'd highly, otherwise any volume dealer (all other things being equal) should be able to match or better any current deal.


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## M2audioman (Jan 16, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> Why wouldn't you have offered $13K or even $13.5K off if you knew of similar deals having occurred in the $13K off range?


Because my particular car had more options than the cars for which people were getting more money off and was much tougher to find at the time. I was therefore willing to offer a bit more to ensure I get it since I knew i'd have a hard time finding one like it again. Like I said, I take all variables into consideration. Plus, the car was located in AZ and i'm in CA, so I had him pay for the cost of shipping the vehicle to me, which would have run me $600. All in all, I got a great deal and had all my facts/numbers in order, which resulted in a quick sale for both sides.

Had I gone with the first dealer I began negotiating with, I would have paid $5K more than I should have...


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

So let me get this straight - you knowingly offered more than other closed deals, plus you bought a car from a dealer in AZ, where I've heard doc fees can be in the hundreds. So you may have paid close to $1K over a similar deal - knowingly and happily. You tangibly valued other factors and possibilities as well.

This is exactly what I probably would have done as well. When I know a deal is good, I'm not going to be too concerned in the off chance a better deal could be done - even if it is to the tune of $1K.


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## M2audioman (Jan 16, 2007)

chrischeung said:


> So let me get this straight - you knowingly offered more than other closed deals, plus you bought a car from a dealer in AZ, where I've heard doc fees can be in the hundreds. So you may have paid close to $1K over a similar deal - knowingly and happily. You tangibly valued other factors and possibilities as well.
> 
> This is exactly what I probably would have done as well. When I know a deal is good, I'm not going to be too concerned in the off chance a better deal could be done - even if it is to the tune of $1K.


Here are the numbers:

MSRP: $56,500
Purchase Price: $43,900
Doc Fee: $249 (in 2007)
Total Price: $44,149

That is $12,351 below MSRP w/doc fee. Best price I had seen at the time if I recall correctly was about $12,800 off MSRP without doc fee for a car without navigation and premium package, of which there were many to choose from in the country at the time. The colors and options I wanted (nav, premium, heated seats, Black Sapphire, with Sepang Brown interior) existed in only 2 cars nationwide. The first dealership wouldn't go below $8K off msrp. Luckily the other dealer was willing to play ball. That made my deal the best possible at the time and within $500 dollars of the best discount I had seen on any Z4M Coupe to date, even with the doc fee taken into consideration. To me, that was a solid deal and I was happy with it.


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