# Drove a 545i - 6sp at the Komen event



## Josh (PA) (Jan 21, 2002)

Last Friday I attended the Ultimate Drive and the Komen event at Philadelphia Park Raceway (parking lot of a horse track). The Ultimate Drive is a great event, I learn something new every year I go. This year BMW was using X3s (3.0, step, non-sport). They lengthened the standard cone track to a 1 mile loop now, I think to help the X3 get around and changed the lapping format, focusing instruction on best lines through the course. They used green marked cones to highlight where to place the X3 to get the best line through the course and it did help demonstrate chosing the largest cornering radius quite well. The course was straighter than in years past, but had two tight s-turn sections. The X3 was impressive for a 4000lb vehicle with a high center of gravity. It had more body roll than I would be comfortable with but was pretty easy to muscle through the course with balanced breakaway that of course was understeer biased but not excessively. 

Anyway, after the 2 hour Auto-X session I grabbed the 545i -6sp for a test drive. I have to say I was very unimpressed. I really wanted to like the car, in the next couple of years we'll be looking at kids and I'll need something bigger to replace the M. Unfortuntely the e60 will not be on my shopping list. I'll start with the positives: The engine was SWEET, great power, flat torque, nice sound. The active suspension kept the car extremely flat through turns and the ride smooth on the straights. The seats were pretty comfortable. That's all I can come up with for positives.

The negatives: The steering was light and NUMB. It had active steering. I didn't notice it (as in it wasn't intrusive) on the road, but when I tried backing into the parking place at the end of the drive I over steered and couldn't get it lined up. I could live with active steering and probably grow to like it if the weight of the steering at all speeds was heavier and communicated even a little bit. The 6 speed was notchy and had very long throws. The clutch take up was vague, the whole manual system was unrewarding. 

The thing that completely drove me nuts about the car was the ergonomics or more importantly, lack there of. Nothing was intuitive in the car. I've talked about this in other recent BMW reviews. The ergonomics of the e36 was one of the main features that hooked me and made me obsess over BMWs since the first time I drove one. Everything in my car is a finger reach away and falls into your hand as if it was tailored to you. The e60 was the exact opposite. I had to search and prod and fumble with almost every control. Even the electronic turn signals were a pain in the ass. Why in the hell would you redesign the turn signal stalk? What is wrong with a design that has worked perfectly for 100 years??? The new electronic ones return to center whether you push them a little bit (for a 3 flash signal for lane changing) or a lot (to keep them on for an intersection turn). Of course the detent to separate a little push from a lot is nowhere near tactile enough, so to make a lane change you push too far and wind up leaving the turn signal on. When you realize the signal is still on the turn signal stalk is back on center, so you push too far the other direction (in a feable attempt to shut it off) and turn it on the other way. Having a police officer behind you while you're going through this excercise only makes it more infuriating. 

The door locks are located in the most common sense of places too. No not on the door where they would make sense, not even on the center console where they've been on every BMW I've had in the last 8 years. No they are right smack in the middle of the dashboard between the center vents, which incidentally you have to lean out of your seat to reach now since BMW abandoned the sweep of your arm Interior design philosophy. I won't even get into I-drive, which I do think is a system with potential to declutter Nav and accesory systems, but that shouldn't be required to change airflow from your face to your feet or to select a new radio station or band. 

All in all, it's a very good chassis/engine in need of some old fashioned BMW Engineering Driven, Driver Centric Product Development. I went in with a good attitude but was very disappointed. What upsets me most is I got back in my M3 afterwards and everything fels SOOO right. I really love that car and have no clue what I'm going to find to replace it that will be even 1/2 as rewarding to own. Unless BMW wakes up before the E90 is launched, I can't see it being a newly designed BMW.


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## mrogers (Mar 2, 2004)

I agree with you on most points about the 545i. I just wouldn't be willing to make that many sacrifices in ergonomics. The new bimmers just plain suck in that department, and even though I've gotten used to the exteriors, the insides aren't growing on me a bit.

Here's my suggestion for you, from how you described your love for your M3: pick up a CPO '03 M5. Larger, but still incredibly powerful, and with those great ergonomics that you know and love. I remember the E36, and in fact I think the E39's ergo is even better. If I were getting ready to drop that amount of cash on a new car, that's what I'd get...an '03 M5, good as new. Or perhaps an '00 740i sport (those are cool), for carrying the family around, and keep your M or pick up something else fun like an M coupe or a newer M3.

Ok, enough of me fantasizing about what I'd do with someone else's budget  Thanks for your opinions on the E60, that was a good writeup.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

COmpletely agree on the disgraceful ergonimics. I really do not know what BMW was smoking. I'm so sick of hearing the "slipperly slope" i-drive reasoning: There were too many buttons on the dash for every single function in a high-end car. So, we created 1 interface for nearly every single button. Its not necessarily a bad idea to have a central interface for dealing w/ the more obsucre features that are being added to cars now. But it MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to remove all of the buttons from the radio faceplate and severly hobble the dash mounted climate control buttons. Most of the stuff they did seems just like "change for change sake". I can't think of 1 thing about the e60 interior that improves upon the e39-- it manages to be worse in every possible way. This is is why my next car will likelly be a used e39.


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## Josh (PA) (Jan 21, 2002)

mrogers said:


> I agree with you on most points about the 545i. I just wouldn't be willing to make that many sacrifices in ergonomics. The new bimmers just plain suck in that department, and even though I've gotten used to the exteriors, the insides aren't growing on me a bit.
> 
> Here's my suggestion for you, from how you described your love for your M3: pick up a CPO '03 M5. Larger, but still incredibly powerful, and with those great ergonomics that you know and love. I remember the E36, and in fact I think the E39's ergo is even better. If I were getting ready to drop that amount of cash on a new car, that's what I'd get...an '03 M5, good as new. Or perhaps an '00 740i sport (those are cool), for carrying the family around, and keep your M or pick up something else fun like an M coupe or a newer M3.
> 
> Ok, enough of me fantasizing about what I'd do with someone else's budget  Thanks for your opinions on the E60, that was a good writeup.


Right now there are 4 or 5 fantasies of mine running through my head for my next car purchase (in approx 2 years).

Most Realistic: '02, or '03 540i sport

Somewhat Realistic and much preferred: 01 or 02 M5 (drove one a few 
months ago and did really like it)

Most Interesting: '04 Legacy Wagon 2.5 and '04 Elise

Not Holding My Breath: E90 blows my socks off and they put the 3.0 in the wagon

There's always the s4 too, but I hate the Audi dealerships in my area.

For being such a die hard BMW person, it's sad that they have nothing on the horizon that gets me excited.


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## DotBalm (Jul 27, 2004)

Josh,

You make some very good points. I feel the same way that Toyota hasn't changed their interior dramatically over the years.

Miiiiiinor point: i-drive is not required to change radio stations or band. Like any car radio you have to set up your presets first. i-drive will remember you are in preset mode for AM and FM, then using either the dash button (which I don't use), or the buttons on the steering wheel (I have 545 iA sport) you can change stations. To change bands, a one time 10 second config in i-drive allows you to program 1 of 2 steering wheel buttons for band change. In my case AM - FM - CD, and then it just loops.

Fair enough though. I was infuriated by the center dash door unlock button. Also, while the new 5 is not the first car to have this IIRC, I don't like that the DSC button, etc are on the center dash near the ash tray. While I went to the ATM once day, I left the car on in Park w/AC running for our infant, my wife who was in the front passenger seat tried the DSC button thinking it meant "disk", as in CD. When I returned she said nothing and I realized it as I pulled out that she had disabled DSC.


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## cprgolds (Jul 18, 2004)

Josh (PA) said:


> Even the electronic turn signals were a pain in the ass. Why in the hell would you redesign the turn signal stalk? What is wrong with a design that has worked perfectly for 100 years??? The new electronic ones return to center whether you push them a little bit (for a 3 flash signal for lane changing) or a lot (to keep them on for an intersection turn). Of course the detent to separate a little push from a lot is nowhere near tactile enough, so to make a lane change you push too far and wind up leaving the turn signal on. When you realize the signal is still on the turn signal stalk is back on center, so you push too far the other direction (in a feable attempt to shut it off) and turn it on the other way. Having a police officer behind you while you're going through this excercise only makes it more infuriating.


I find this to be an interesting comment.

Before I bought my 525, I test drove one and the turn signals were a little irritating.

Once I took delivery, it took less than an hour to get used to the feel and now I prefer the electronic one. It just takes a little time...


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Does Audi have the unlock button between the center vents as well? I know MB does. I wonder if the Germans just feel the need to all emulate each other, as MB switch from center window controls to driver's side door a while ago as well.


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## heezyo2o (Mar 23, 2004)

The things that you disliked may be due to your short period of time in the car. When I first drove the car, I honestly found things to be quite intuitive, from Idrive to the turn signals. The stalk for the turn signal is a bit higher when compared to your e36 or e46, but if you drive the car around just for a short while, you shouldn't confuse the turn signal stalk with cruise control. If you take the car around the block and signal a few times, I dont' see how you could have trouble with the turn signal anymore. Not sure if the auto 3 flash signal is available in the e46, but I'd greatly appreciate if this feature were available in all cars.

If you had trouble parking the car, that can be expected if you weren't comfortable with active steering yet. Once you get accustomed to active steering, driving either at highway speeds or in the parking lot is second nature, and I for one would not want an e60 without this feature.

I don't see the big deal with the door locks. Just stick your finger out and press a button. If you have to lean forward to reach this button, perhaps your chair wasn't properly adjusted.

When you say the clutch was "vague," what did you mean by this? I find the clutch to be light and the engagement point to be short. I guess some people prefer a heavier clutch, I don't know, but it feels good to me. In the future, I plan on doing a CDV replacement along with a short shift kit, so this department will be improved.

I can relate when you say your "M3 feels so right" as I have an older 5 series, an e34 525i that I just feel very comfortable in. The e34 was my first car and even though the e60 is just a better car in every conceivable way, I'm just right at home in the e34. People enjoy familiarity and like things to stay the same, but change is often necessary and good. If you can get use to the changes in the e60 like you got use to your M3, then I'm sure the e60 will be a viable choice when your looking to upgrade.

Either that or you can scratch the e60 off the list and find a better car in it's category. Do tell me when you find it.

About the e39 M5. I was considering one when I was in the market for the e60. I'm a bit sad I didn't get it as a M5 is always a M5, but I am more than happy with the 545i.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

DotBalm said:


> Miiiiiinor point: i-drive is not required to change radio stations or band. Like any car radio you have to set up your presets first. i-drive will remember you are in preset mode for AM and FM, then using either the dash button (which I don't use), or the buttons on the steering wheel (I have 545 iA sport) you can change stations. To change bands, a one time 10 second config in i-drive allows you to program 1 of 2 steering wheel buttons for band change. In my case AM - FM - CD, and then it just loops.


Glad you said this, I'd actually been wondering about this on I-drive on the new 5er (not that I'll ever buy one - can't afford it right now )


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## KatanaPilot (Mar 25, 2003)

heezy545i said:


> If you had trouble parking the car, that can be expected if you weren't comfortable with active steering yet. Once you get accustomed to active steering, driving either at highway speeds or in the parking lot is second nature, and I for one would not want an e60 without this feature.


I think this is precisely the problem with Active Steering. BMW's steering has always been "intuitive". If you need to get "accustomed" to the steering, then there is definitely something wrong with it.

My biggest gripe about the new 5 series is actually the seat controls. I tried it in the show room, and it was an extremely frustrating experience. The seat seems to move in all different directions other than the direction I want it to move.....


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## cprgolds (Jul 18, 2004)

*E60 Seat Adjustment*



KatanaPilot said:


> My biggest gripe about the new 5 series is actually the seat controls. I tried it in the show room, and it was an extremely frustrating experience. The seat seems to move in all different directions other than the direction I want it to move.....


I can agree with the frustration, and it is not *intuitive", but once again, once you have if figured out, you are there.

My issue is that up is not really up, but instead it is up and back. I suspect that this is a design issue related to cost or component packaging issues.

:dunno:


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## CSBM5 (Mar 10, 2004)

KatanaPilot said:


> I think this is precisely the problem with Active Steering. BMW's steering has always been "intuitive". If you need to get "accustomed" to the steering, then there is definitely something wrong with it.


Absolutely. See a write-up I did on my experiences with AS at the Performance Center 2-day Advanced Course a few weeks back: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=44007

I'm pretty sure the E60 M5 will not have AS...at least we can hope so.


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## avalys (Oct 14, 2003)

KatanaPilot said:


> I think this is precisely the problem with Active Steering. BMW's steering has always been "intuitive". If you need to get "accustomed" to the steering, then there is definitely something wrong with it.


I don't buy that argument. If you're going to own a car for three years or more, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having to get "accustomed" to the steering (or any other mechanism/feature for that matter) during the first few hours or days you drive it. This is the same case I make for iDrive - BMW's are not meant to be rental cars. iDrive was not designed so that you could hop in and master everything in the first ten minutes. It, along with active steering, was designed for the driver to take advantage of over the entire period he owns the car.

Did you have to get accustomed to driving a manual transmission? I would guess you did, as it really isn't "intuitive" at all.


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## DotBalm (Jul 27, 2004)

avalys said:


> Did you have to get accustomed to driving a manual transmission? I would guess you did, as it really isn't "intuitive" at all.


Completely agree.

And getting used to "forward and back" racing shifting also takes getting used to if you're used to manual H-pattern shifting. Driving a full size vehicle like a pickup takes getting used to. Etc.

FWIW, this is my experience.

After 2 months of driving my car with Active Steering (AS), I think this is one of the, if not the, best things in steering since the advent of power steering. Just as I would not want to go back to the days prior to power steering - I remember them clearly - I would not want to go back to the days prior to AS. I now wince when driving my pickup and SUV, neither of which have AS, but do have power steering. The difference is only prounounced to me at low speeds (parking, U turns).

This is not to say AS doesn't take getting used to.

I had some doubts during my test drive, but not enough to not order the car. When I picked up my car, it was prepped and ready on the showroom floor, and when it came time to drive through the glass double doors, I was nervous because it was a tight fit (in my view). The F/I sales guy motioned me forward, watching the clearance on both sides, like he was directing an airplane. This helped because the steering is sensitive at these speeds. Once the car was in the sunlight he noticed water spots near the grille and directed me to the detailing area for a quick touch-up. That was a hairy 40 ft winding drive at about 1 or 2 mph I'd guess. I had to steer around other vehicles, cement structural columns and such at this busy dealership. I was not used to AS yet and had an inkling of doubt whether this new capability was just gadgetry getting in the way of my driving or not.

After a few days behind the wheel I was hooked. Other folks may never like it I suppose and that is fair enough.


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## Josh (PA) (Jan 21, 2002)

DotBalm said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> And getting used to "forward and back" racing shifting also takes getting used to if you're used to manual H-pattern shifting. Driving a full size vehicle like a pickup takes getting used to. Etc.
> 
> ...


I can understand having to get used to something like Active Steering. I see it as part of the time required to get used to and comfortable with the driving dynamics of any performance car. Personally, in my review I didn't say I disliked the ratio changing of AS, but I disliked the overall lightness and numbness of the steering feel in general. I suspect I'd have the same complaints in a 5 series w/o AS.

I can also accept needing to take time to learn I-drive, as it would take an equal (give or take) amount of time to learn just about any navigation input system. I do think too many functions are buried in the menus, but there is a happy medium out there somewhere. BMW just hasn't found it yet.

What I find unacceptable is having to take time to *learn* or relearn completely basic functions of an automobile. BMW has had intuitive designs for turn signals, seat controls, door locks, CD selector, climate control, radio etc. for a long time, and the e60 takes DRAMATIC steps backwards in these driver interface areas.


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## CSBM5 (Mar 10, 2004)

There is really nothing intuitive about the changing ratio versus velocity when you are in a rapidly changing scenario. In my case I referenced above, I had just come through a high speed slalom (70mph or so), slowed to around 35-40 for a sharp turn-in, and AS had increased the ratio to unnatural levels. There is no way that one can learn and know intuitively just how much response the system will give when faced with a rapidly changing speed scenario such as my case above. It will inevitably result in applying too much steering input (in the deceleration case) which at best will just upset the chassis by requiring steering adjustments to counter the incorrect input; at worst, near the limits of adhesion, the outcome is either a spin or a large loss of time at a track (on the street, good luck). Trying to get the car under control from a wild oversteer condition that results in oscillations back the other way, and back, etc...can be a real challenge due to the changing ratio as one is either dialing in too much correction or too little as speed changes.

There's a good reason that it will not be part of the E60 M5 setup  (same reason you will never see this "feature" on a race car).


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Josh (PA) said:


> DotBalm said:
> 
> 
> > Completely agree.
> ...


Exactly- BMW is far from achieveing the "happy medium" w/ i-drive. They need to altleast include the same amount of hard-buttons and swithces that a basic e46 has. You should be able to:
-adjust fan speed, temp, blower direction, turn on/off ac, defroster, switch/program radio presets, change bass/trbele/fader, swithc CDsin the CD changer seek/manual tune radio stations/, and change audio source without programming any steering wheel buttons or fiddling w/ i-drive.

Of the capabilities I listed, i-drive equipped cars are missing:
-blower direction
-audio source
-swithc/program radio presets
-switch CDs in the CD changer
-bass/treble/fader

They also need to give up their quest to re-invent the turn signal stalk and power seat controls. If they did these things, they'd solve about 80-90% of the complaints tha tpeople have w/ the system. I they'd also be able to make the i-drive screen a pop-up (since you wouldn't need it for 99% of the stuff you do while drivig), which would help to make the interior less ugly, and allow them to move the radio back up to a more ergonomic position (i.e. where it is in the e46).

This is such basic, common sense and I have no idea why BMW hasn't figure this out.


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## mwagner1 (Aug 13, 2004)

Wow,

I am stunned that someone would trash a car after something like a short Komen drive. I am a veteran of many Komen drives, and that includes driving any one of the fleet cars from city to city. So, I got to spend extra time in a car beyond what a "regular" participant gets. I did not however, get to do a Komen drive this year  

So, trashing a car (when driven for a short time) seems to be a waste of bandwidth. I have already driven a 545i 6-speed as well as a 53oi. I found both cars to be a hoot, and though some of the interior aspects are indeed quirky, that did not in any way affect the superb driving of the cars.

Both cars had Active Steering, and once again, trashing Active Steering because your one time trying it failed is ludicrous.  

I found (on both cars) things to be rather intuitive. iDrive was fine and I was able to change radio stations with no problem (with no previous iDrive experience). The climate controls were just fine and I was able to change (make cooler) the cabin temperature with NO problems, and that was done without using iDrive. And believe me, it was rather toasty on the days I drove the cars.

What does all of this mean??? That iDrive may be a nightmare for one person, and a breeze for the next. Active Steering may be weird, but I found it to be cool. Does that make me wrong and the person who trashed it right??? Does that invalidate the person's opinion who likes it or hates it???

Instead of trashing a feature, why not state your concerns, and then let someone else go and make his or her own assumptions??

Just my $.02,

Cheers,

Mark in Austin


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## eksath (Apr 4, 2003)

mwagner1 said:


> Wow,
> 
> I am stunned that someone would trash a car after something like a short Komen drive. I am a veteran of many Komen drives, and that includes driving any one of the fleet cars from city to city. So, I got to spend extra time in a car beyond what a "regular" participant gets. I did not however, get to do a Komen drive this year
> 
> ...


Sure you are not Mr.BMWNA? 

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion..i am sure before somebody lays out $60 grand he/she will test the quirks described and be willing or not willing to live with them for 3-5 years.


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## Josh (PA) (Jan 21, 2002)

mwagner1 said:


> Wow,
> 
> I am stunned that someone would trash a car after something like a short Komen drive. I am a veteran of many Komen drives, and that includes driving any one of the fleet cars from city to city. So, I got to spend extra time in a car beyond what a "regular" participant gets. I did not however, get to do a Komen drive this year
> 
> ...


You need to go back and read through the entire thread.

First I didn't "trash" the active steering. I trashed the steering feedback, weight and feel, which were all subpar for BMW standards. That is something you can develop an accurate opinion on the first time you try to make a lane change at speeds and find the car neither easy nor pleasing to place accurately.

Second, while you may be able to figure out how to change the radio station, or adjust the cabin airflow using I-drive the first time you use it, that doesn't make it easy to use or, more importantly, an improvement over previous layouts. I figured all of that stuff out too, but it was at the expense of taking my eyes off the road for prolonged periods of time to read menu options, navigate through screens and select options. Just because it's useable, doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

You do come across as overly apologetic for BMW, and overly forgiving of quirky ergonomics


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## Ågent99 (Jan 7, 2002)

Thanks for the write-up, Josh.

We I bought my first BMW (2001 530i), I had all sorts of things to learn but that was cool...this was a car unlike anything I've ever owned or driven.

Think about anytime you've driven an unfamiliar car and what is the first thing most of us have to get used to: brakes! Okay, no biggie. Before I did the CDV mod, shifting the 530i was something else, too....

While I have grown to like the exterior of the E60, the interior still never did it for me. Keep in mind that I have not _driven_ an E60...just sat in one.

So for all these changes in the car compared to what you are used to, I think the key is to give it time and to not so quickly chuck an E60 out the window as a viable car that, with some time, you might actually grow to love. I don't think we all realize how comfortable we get in a car we've driven for a few years. Even annoyances might start fading into the background and we just don't even think about them anymore. You just get used to them.

I guess what I am saying is that go for a few more rides in the E60 and then see what you think. The E60 is a pretty new BMW...all kinds of "new" and it may well need adjusting to.

All that said, I'm looking to purchase a new car in 2006-7 and I figure that BMW will have most of the kinks worked out by then on the E60. We'll see, we'll see....

Chris


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## waapples (Jan 5, 2004)

sorry to use your pic, heezy545i; i like your bimmer~

i used to hate the new e60 5 series but the design has grown on me lately.
i really like the 545i - 6spds, but i would prefer the new M5 front & rear bumper designs over the current e60 regular designs.

i might get the e60 530i next time~ :thumbup:

$.02


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## shabbaman (Dec 16, 2002)

mwagner1 said:


> Wow,
> 
> I am stunned that someone would trash a car after something like a short Komen drive. I am a veteran of many Komen drives, and that includes driving any one of the fleet cars from city to city. So, I got to spend extra time in a car beyond what a "regular" participant gets. I did not however, get to do a Komen drive this year
> 
> ...


So on what basis should you base your 60K purchase on? I've done the Philadelphia Park thing in 2001 when they were doing the X5 Ultimate Drive in 2001, and while we were waiting we drove a few of the Komen cars. The course is very appropriate with a nice mix of highway and city driving.

A 10 mile drive is usually longer than most people take and the fact that these are BMWNA cars, there's nobody at the dealership to tell you to 'take it easy'


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