# Do not buy a ZHP if you want to actually drive it



## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

*Do not buy a 3.0L E46 if you want to actually drive it*

Got my ZHP two weeks ago.

Took it in this morning for the following issues:

(1) Needed to be PROPERLY detailed (was delivered with obvious swirl marks, etc.)
(2) Needed memory settings done
(3) Needed rattling speakers fixed
(4) I noted to the SA that twice I had idle fluctuations of 300 - 400 RPMs

(EDIT: the car had actually stalled once, but that slipped my mind and I neglected to share that fact with the SA)

Turns out there is a service bulletin that states that if there are idle fluctuations, the DME must be removed and sent back to Germany for repair. I asked the SA if he could simply wait for a software update and take care of it with that. No doing. BMW wants the DMEs sent back (if I were paranoid, I would wonder about potential cover ups).

So I get stuck in a much lesser car I don't want to drive for two weeks, have to continue paying my lease, but don't have the car I JUST leased to drive. Seems just a TINY bit inequitable to me...

So I call BMW and talked with some snotty lady who implied that I was LUCKY that I had anything to drive as the warranty doesn't require it and any transportation is simply a dealer courtesy and basically tough luck.

Vive la (non) ultimate driving (and customer service) experience!


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## RSPDiver (Jul 14, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your experiences. Although it's obvious you are miffed, at least you got a loaner, albeit not the same thing. I'm sure that you will become quite enamored with the CAR (if not the service) once you get it back on the pavement.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

kurichan said:


> Got my ZHP two weeks ago.
> 
> Took it in this morning for the following issues:
> 
> ...


1 - If they f'ed it up once, why would you let them touch it again  :thumbdwn:

2 - Your sales person could have done this with his lap top in 10 minutes at delivery so I agree, that sucks.

3 - :angel: I will not comment

4 - That seems like :bs: to me, other here have had the fix done without sending the DME back. Perhaps your car was built with the *updated* version so they are confused as to why you are having the issues :dunno:


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## JAWJr (May 4, 2004)

Sorry but all of that has nothing to do with the fact that it's a ZHP. Not to degrade your problems by any means, but the title was a bit miss leading.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JAWJr said:


> Sorry but all of that has nothing to do with the fact that it's a ZHP. Not to degrade your problems by any means, but the title was a bit miss leading.


I'm not sure how much of a difference this really makes in relation to the actual problem, or the main point -- that BMW's handling of the situation sucks -- but I fixed the title anyway.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Dr. Phil said:


> 1 - If they f'ed it up once, why would you let them touch it again  :thumbdwn:


The "Master Detailer" was on vacation -- I've been promised that only he would touch the car from now on and everything would be made right. I guess we'll see.


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## fpa1974 (Dec 16, 2002)

Sorry to hear about your problems. You will have a lot to catch up after a month of inactivity though 

The one that I still have as a loaner since Friday has been awesome. Other than some rattling throw out bearing (on a car with 400 miles on it) which I do not care about - it is not my car, it has been an absolute blast. I cannot stop myself from driving it. Definitely the most fun non ///M BMW I drove. What it is nice about it, is the fact that if you feel like taking it slowly you can and it is very docile (as opposed to my coupe for example). If you decide to increase the pace it will comply. Lots of grip and very good balance at the limit. 

I will most definitely get one in the next year or so - and I hope I will not have to go through the same ordeal as you.

Florian


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## DrivingMaryland (Jun 16, 2004)

welcome to BMW ownership, my zhp is not perfect either although I don't have the problems you described. I guess I knew what I was getting into when I bought it. BMWs are just not so reliable. Coming from an Acura its hard for me to get used to.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Thanks for trying to smooth out my ruffled feathers and calm me a bit guys. Just so you know, I'll be ballastic for a few days (at least I hope it doesn't go on much longer!). The girl on the phone never once apologized for my trouble and spent more time telling me that the warranty didn't require them to give me any transportation than trying to provide a good customer service experience. I swear I went into it diplomatically and she was a snot from the outset. I think I'll be jousting with some higher ups tomorrow.


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## Frank Rizzo (Aug 2, 2003)

Word from the wise:
You live in California and have some very specific rights under the Song-Beverly consumer act. You need to carefully document all problems and pay close attention to the milage when the issues occured.

I'd send a B.S demand letter letting BMWNA know that they have breeched the "implied warranty of fitness" and the "implied warranty of merchantability" and that you want them to repurchase the car immediately. Give them 2 weeks to respond. Do a google search and plagiarize a sample demand letter that works for California. (FYI: you don't really have a case unless they keep the car over 30 days). I think they will take you much more seriuously if they know that you know what BMWNA's specific obligations are. (well.......you could also piss them off - and alienate them - but you can always go to antoher dealer later)

I wish I took a stronger stance about our P.O.S. Jetta GLX upon delivery. Now I'm stuck with it for 9 more months. Because I was not paying attention (or naive), the dealer documented very few of the problems - and did a lot of things "verbally". I have little history and I'm having a heluva time getting the car out of my life by exercising my rights. VWNA is MUCH worse then BMWNA - I don't have much of a case to stand on they know it and dont even return calls.

Check out: http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/songbev.htm So you know what your rights are.

VW SUX


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## eksath (Apr 4, 2003)

ChosenGSR said:


> welcome to BMW ownership,....BMWs are just not so reliable.


Beg to differ but i havn't had issues with mine (45 Kmiles 2002Ci) compared to my last Honda Accord 1999.

My 330ci and family M3 :thumbup: ..been rock solid....oh, same thing applies to a 1999 M5,2000 X5...so i think i have some basis for saying that  ..perhaps you got an outlier from the quality control group. ...but then again i have seen quite a few threads of performance package owners complaining about troubles on the board. Please do search and good luck


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## JAWJr (May 4, 2004)

kurichan said:


> I'm not sure how much of a difference this really makes in relation to the actual problem, or the main point -- that BMW's handling of the situation sucks -- but I fixed the title anyway.


You're right they don't handle problems well often- I don't blame you for going ballistic recently. I would do the same I'm sure. I just hope it works out for you- it's a shame to see this happen especially so soon after which you've bought your new car.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Frank Rizzo said:


> Word from the wise:
> You live in California and have some very specific rights under the Song-Beverly consumer act. You need to carefully document all problems and pay close attention to the milage when the issues occured.
> 
> I'd send a B.S demand letter letting BMWNA know that they have breeched the "implied warranty of fitness" and the "implied warranty of merchantability" and that you want them to repurchase the car immediately. Give them 2 weeks to respond. Do a google search and plagiarize a sample demand letter that works for California. (FYI: you don't really have a case unless they keep the car over 30 days). I think they will take you much more seriuously if they know that you know what BMWNA's specific obligations are. (well.......you could also piss them off - and alienate them - but you can always go to antoher dealer later)
> ...


Thank you. The dealer has been great so far and has insisted on documenting every issue with the car in detail, in writing! My beef is with BMWNA right now. BMWNA wanted to be snooty and technical with me, so you might be right that they've invited a response in kind...


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## texansd (Dec 21, 2003)

The ONLY way to deal with BMW NA is through legal writing and lawyer's signatures. They wouldn't even call me back until my lawyer called them explaining how they had violated implied warranties AND explicit warranties on my car. This, of course, evoked the response of "you'll have to talk to our legal department." If you want to know more information about speaker rattles, I'm your man. Or call Iden at x7647...he knows plenty about the situation.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

I am really surprised at the way some people act when dealing with dealers and automakers. It seems as though they have never bought a car before, all cars have problems deal with it. Unless the it is a reccurring problem that the dealer cannot fix after a few tries there is no reason to go ballistic and resort to temper tantrums or legal threats.

I’m sure I’ll hear from the people that owned a “Honda” (or whatever make) and the car never once was in the shop for repairs, well sell your BMW and by another “whatever car” and pray you get the luck of the draw and end up with another trouble free car.


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## DrivingMaryland (Jun 16, 2004)

texansd said:


> The ONLY way to deal with BMW NA is through legal writing and lawyer's signatures. They wouldn't even call me back until my lawyer called them explaining how they had violated implied warranties AND explicit warranties on my car. This, of course, evoked the response of "you'll have to talk to our legal department." If you want to know more information about speaker rattles, I'm your man. Or call Iden at x7647...he knows plenty about the situation.


I am convinced that BMWNA are pricks, and so are the BMW dealerships. It's too bad that BMW is unmatched when comes to driving experience because I would love to go elsewhere with my money. Hell, most dealership won't even give you a BMW as a loaner car, you'll be stuck driving an accord.


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## DrivingMaryland (Jun 16, 2004)

eksath said:


> Beg to differ but i havn't had issues with mine (45 Kmiles 2002Ci) compared to my last Honda Accord 1999.
> 
> My 330ci and family M3 :thumbup: ..been rock solid....oh, same thing applies to a 1999 M5,2000 X5...so i think i have some basis for saying that  ..perhaps you got an outlier from the quality control group. ...but then again i have seen quite a few threads of performance package owners complaining about troubles on the board. Please do search and good luck


Howmany threads do you see of this and that doesn't work on a brand new/couple years old car daily? BMW forums are infested with them. On the other hand, go to Honda or Toyota and you will hardly see any. Trust me, I upgraded from an Acura to a BMW and I see the light... But as far as reliability BMW seriously needs to get their had out of their behind because many car manufacturers are catching up. Infinity and Lexus primarely. The G35 for 05 is already unmatched by anything short of the M3 and Lexus is planning a performance oriented solution by 07 I believe.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

My wife owned a stripped down Sentra for 12 years with absolutely no problems accept routine maintenance, and even then the local mechanic could repair the car very very cheaply… would I want to drive the Sentra on a daily basis? No.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

ChosenGSR said:


> Howmany threads do you see of this and that doesn't work on a brand new/couple years old car daily? BMW forums are infested with them. On the other hand, go to Honda or Toyota and you will hardly see any. Trust me, I upgraded from an Acura to a BMW and I see the light... But as far as reliability BMW seriously needs to get their had out of their behind because many car manufacturers are catching up. Infinity and Lexus primarely. The G35 for 05 is already unmatched by anything short of the M3 and Lexus is planning a performance oriented solution by 07 I believe.


A woman I work with has a Toyota and her car has been in the shop three times in the last few months for repairs. A couple of times her car has even broken down on the tollway. And I'm pretty sure she dosen't hit the Toyota enthusiast forums to bitch and complain about it, to her a car is something she uses to get from one place to the other.


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## NASA43 (Jul 19, 2003)

Kurichan,

So what did they give you for a loaner?


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## ChadS (Jan 4, 2002)

ChosenGSR said:


> Howmany threads do you see of this and that doesn't work on a brand new/couple years old car daily? BMW forums are infested with them. On the other hand, go to Honda or Toyota and you will hardly see any. Trust me, I upgraded from an Acura to a BMW and I see the light... But as far as reliability BMW seriously needs to get their had out of their behind because many car manufacturers are catching up. Infinity and Lexus primarely. The G35 for 05 is already unmatched by anything short of the M3 and Lexus is planning a performance oriented solution by 07 I believe.


I also disagree about not being reliable. I have had multiple BMW's ('88 528e, '99 Z3 2.3, and currently an '00 328i, 01 325Ci, and '04 Z4 3.0) and all have been very reliable for us. When I got rid of the '88 528e it had just over 170,000 miles and major parts on the car were still original (engine, transmission). Besides wear items, that car was bullet proof. We traded in the '99 Z3 for the '04 Z4 and the Z3 was also very reliable. The Z3 did leave us stranded once this past winter, but because of a dead battery. It really was my fault because I should have had the battery replaced as it was still the original. Our '00 328 with 45,000 miles has been flawless and the 325Ci is just about to turn 60,000 miles and has been just about flawless as well minus a failure of the throttle body at 5,000 miles. My brother just ordered an '05 330i w/ ZHP and can't wait to get since his '97 Accord has been giving him a lot of trouble lately. I guess it really depends on each person's experiences, but mine has been excellent.

Plus you have to look at this from the perspective that most of us here are car enthusiasts; we notice things that 95% of other people don't. A lot of people look at cars as another appliance. I was in my sister's '04 X5 a few months back and noticed a small scratch in the leather. I didn't say anything about until last week when I was in the car again and she said she didn't even notice it until I pointed it out. :yikes: A friend of mine had a Pontiac a few years back that the radio didn't work at all. I asked him if he was going to get it fixed and he said he would if he got around to it, but it wasn't a big priority for him. He said it hadn't worked for the past few months. With me, I would have made an appointment the second after it stopped working. A slight rattle or vibration that bugs the hell out us is barely noticed but most others. I am the kind of person who will have even the slightest thing repaired. Does BMW have the same level of reliability of say Lexus? No, however in my experience it is pretty damn close.


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## ClubSpec330i (Oct 22, 2003)

Boy oh boy...do I feel sorry for you guys who have(had) problem(S) with your ZHP. I do not have any problems described here with my ZHP or wife's 330i, both are 2003. At close to 17K miles, this car is just like my Integra GSR nicely broken in and MORE. 

Good luck on your car and mini battle with BMW NA.


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## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

ChosenGSR said:


> Howmany threads do you see of this and that doesn't work on a brand new/couple years old car daily? BMW forums are infested with them. On the other hand, go to Honda or Toyota and you will hardly see any. Trust me, I upgraded from an Acura to a BMW and I see the light... But as far as reliability BMW seriously needs to get their had out of their behind because many car manufacturers are catching up. Infinity and Lexus primarely. The G35 for 05 is already unmatched by anything short of the M3 and Lexus is planning a performance oriented solution by 07 I believe.


I'd have to say that your logic has some serious sampling error built into it, sort of like trying to judge how many ZHP's are on the road as a percentage of e46's based on the percentage of ZHP owners found on this forum.

What I mean to say is - how many people with Toyotas and Hondas, as a percentage, spend any time at all at an enthusiast forum where they may be willing or able to air their gripes?

Further, how many of those owners would gripe about "swirl marks?"

Nevertheless, the purchase of a new vehicle like ours should make the owner nothing but ecstatic.


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## 330soon2b (May 30, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your problems. So far my car is great. I can empathize, however. I sold an 04TL because of numerous problems. I only owned it 10 mos. My advice is to sell if you can't get things fixed to your satisfaction. Do you have pics of your swirl marks? My service experience with my dealer was good, not great. However, it was much better than Acura. At the end of the day, I am not really impressed with any dealer's service. My car was not prepped that well either. I haven't had the idle problem so I am sorry to hear about your troubles. I have 4,100 miles on my car. I have no reservations recommending a ZHP to anyone.


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## texansd (Dec 21, 2003)

Artslinger said:


> I am really surprised at the way some people act when dealing with dealers and automakers. It seems as though they have never bought a car before, all cars have problems deal with it. Unless the it is a reccurring problem that the dealer cannot fix after a few tries there is no reason to go ballistic and resort to temper tantrums or legal threats.
> 
> I'm sure I'll hear from the people that owned a "Honda" (or whatever make) and the car never once was in the shop for repairs, well sell your BMW and by another "whatever car" and pray you get the luck of the draw and end up with another trouble free car.


My car was in the shop for 7 times and from June 10th till July 19th straight to fix the problem and it was never fixed. I felt a little justified calling BMW NA after that experience.


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

Sorry to hear. OTOH, they are doing something about it.
The 330 has an intermitent rough launch issue that BMW doesn't recognize, let alone fix.

How's that Pilot EX-L?
I'm thinking in getting one.


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## DrivingMaryland (Jun 16, 2004)

I am glad to hear many of you have good experiences with reliability, but from what I've seen/heard/experienced BMW reliability is no where near Toyota or Honda. I purchased a new car in which the fuel guage doesn't work properly, how can that be overlooked from the factory? The idle problem is apparent although in my case its barely there. MY dad has an e39 that had to have its software relfashed due to the automatic tranny acting weird. I love BMW as much as the next guy, but I hate how customer UN-frandly BMW dealerships or BMW of NA are. Hell lexus gives their dealerships 10 cars per dealer to use as rentals. BMW of NA does no such thing, thats why many of us stuck driving a 20k car after paying 45k just a month ago.

Again, I love BMW which is why I drive a zhp but I certainly don't like certain things about BMW service/quality control.


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## texansd (Dec 21, 2003)

Amen, a great objective way to look at it. :thumbup:


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Having been the owner of two Integras, I have to tell you that Honda's are not always perfect. I had more problems with my Integra in the first year of ownership than my 330i. Honda's will last a long time, but they do require some repairs along the way.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

texansd said:


> My car was in the shop for 7 times and from June 10th till July 19th straight to fix the problem and it was never fixed. I felt a little justified calling BMW NA after that experience.


" Unless the it is a *reccurring problem that the dealer cannot fix after a few tries * there is no reason to go ballistic and resort to temper tantrums or legal threats."


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> I am really surprised at the way some people act when dealing with dealers and automakers. It seems as though they have never bought a car before, all cars have problems deal with it. Unless the it is a reccurring problem that the dealer cannot fix after a few tries there is no reason to go ballistic and resort to temper tantrums or legal threats.


What tempter tantrums (and using belittling language like that only causes trouble by the way...)? I haven't raised my voice once to anyone. Am I angry? Hell yes.

So you think there's no reason for me to be angry. Let's review...

I was leased a car a couple weeks back that they KNEW was defective, they take it away but still expect me to make lease payments. During those weeks that I continue to pay for use the car, I'll have no access or use of the vehicle? I call them and ask politely if they can do something for me while I don't have my expensive performance car and I'm told "we don't owe you anything -- you're lucky to have anything to drive" and they never once apologize.

And you're surprised that I'm upset...


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

ChosenGSR said:


> I am glad to hear many of you have good experiences with reliability, but from what I've seen/heard/experienced BMW reliability is no where near Toyota or Honda. I purchased a new car in which the fuel guage doesn't work properly, how can that be overlooked from the factory? The idle problem is apparent although in my case its barely there. MY dad has an e39 that had to have its software relfashed due to the automatic tranny acting weird. I love BMW as much as the next guy, but I hate how customer UN-frandly BMW dealerships or BMW of NA are. Hell lexus gives their dealerships 10 cars per dealer to use as rentals. BMW of NA does no such thing, thats why many of us stuck driving a 20k car after paying 45k just a month ago.
> 
> Again, I love BMW which is why I drive a zhp but I certainly don't like certain things about BMW service/quality control.


Buy your next BMW from a dealer that offers BMW loaners.

Not only does my dealer have BMW loaners they also have great service hours: 
Mon - Thurs. 7:00 am - Midnight 
Fri 7:00am-6:00pm 
Sat 8:00am-4:00pm

In the larger markets shopping for good service should be one criteria before buying.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

kurichan said:


> What tempter tantrums (and using belittling language like that only causes trouble by the way...)? I haven't raised my voice once to anyone. Am I angry? Hell yes.
> 
> So you think there's no reason for me to be angry. Let's review...
> 
> ...


Cars break down what do you want them to do... give you a new car?


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Maybe I am just too laid back, but I don't get the hang up over the loaner vehicle. 

BMW NA doesn't require their dealerships to even offer a loaner. It's up to the dealer whether they will give you one or not. Getting one is a bonus. As for the type of car, personally as long as I have a car I can take to work and back and maybe run an errand or so I am happy. I LOVE my BMW, but know that being in the shop is only temporary and I will soon be with my baby again.

When I was in England, the dealer would give Mini ONEs (the basic no thrills model) as loaners. The first couple of times I was given the keys the SA flinched as he said, "Here are the keys to the xxxx colored Mini out front". He was expecting me to shoot his face off :tsk: . The relief was apperant when I responded "cool". My dealer here gave me a Camry from their Toyota fleet when I went in for my last service. He apologized repeatedly for giving me that car since his last BMW loaner was in for repairs. His relief was noticable when I thanked him for the car and headed for the rental desk.

Even the loaner BMW's are non-SP slush boxes, so spending time in a non-BMW loaner is not that big of a difference. No sense getting worked up over something that small. I appreciate them taking care of me and not forcing me to bum a ride to work or scramble my wife's work/child taxi schedule.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> How's that Pilot EX-L? I'm thinking in getting one.


As far as we can tell, it is the PERFECT familymobile.

What we like:

* Interior is very large/well designed
* Interior comfortable, slightly luxurious, but stands up well to kids
* Seats 8
* Doesn't feel large
* Gets decent gas mileage
* Honda simplicity and quality
* Rides well
* Handles well
* Does just fine off road (haven't done anything intense)
* Good stereo (better than on my 330i!)
* Reasonable price (at least compared to other SUVs)
* Good HP/torque

What we don't like

* Styling
* Front seats could be a little more comfortable

In terms of problems, none, zippo, zilch, nada!

There is a "click" in the suspension that worries me a bit. It only happens just after first driving off, might just be the springs seating, but I need to have it looked at.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> Cars break down what do you want them to do... give you a new car?


Read again: They knew the car was defective when it was delivered...


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

kurichan said:


> Read again: They knew the car was defective when it was delivered...


Knew it was defective?


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

kurichan said:


> There is a "click" in the suspension that worries me a bit. It only happens just after first driving off, might just be the springs seating, but I need to have it looked at.


My Sequoia does something similar. Its the ABS and the traction control conducting a self test. It only does it after starting the car, but won't happen until the vehicle is in motion. Could your noise be something similar? I had a '93 Accord whose ABS self test was quite noisy :dunno:


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

MicahO said:


> Nevertheless, the purchase of a new vehicle like ours should make the owner nothing but ecstatic.


There you have it! But instead of "what can we do to make you ecstatic" I get "tough luck." Obviously, BMW just doesn't care that much about their image anymore. It seems to be a company in transition. I guess this is the ugly part of that transition. Maybe Bangle is overseeing customer service now? :rofl:


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Artslinger said:


> Knew it was defective?


Yep. There is a service bulletin on the problem. I haven't seen it in person, but I am told that it was released a month before my car was delivered.


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## hmr (Jul 28, 2002)

Dude, relax. Sounds like you got some buyer's remorse. 

Sometimes perfectionists are not the happiest people.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Desertnate said:


> My Sequoia does something similar. Its the ABS and the traction control conducting a self test. It only does it after starting the car, but won't happen until the vehicle is in motion. Could your noise be something similar? I had a '93 Accord whose ABS self test was quite noisy :dunno:


Could be. Thanks for the info. I'm going to have it checked. I'm pretty sure it won't snap like those Saturn Vue suspensions though!


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## Hou330izhp (May 25, 2004)

hmr said:


> Dude, relax. Sounds like you got some buyer's remorse.
> 
> Sometimes perfectionists are not the happiest people.


kurichan, sorry to hear about your problems, some of us tried to warn you when you started this thread :

*My ZHP has arrived at dealer - I don't know if I want it...*
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64855

Hope things work out in the end.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

*Devil's advocate*



kurichan said:


> (1) Needed to be PROPERLY detailed (was delivered with obvious swirl marks, etc.)
> (2) Needed memory settings done
> (3) Needed rattling speakers fixed
> (4) I noted to the SA that twice I had idle fluctuations of 300 - 400 RPMs


Your original post title said "Do not buy a ZHP if you want to actually drive it". Well, it seems to me that if you really wanted to drive it, you'd do just that. 3 out of your 4 complaints are cosmetic or minor, nothing to do with the driving experience. The 4th one would be driving related only if the car stalled.

:dunno: I know I may be coming across as a_prick, but I'm just trying to put some things in perspective as I thought your title was a little melodramatic. My car has a small rattle somewhere and the steering wheel squeaks/groans sometimes around the straight ahead position and it stalls in hot weather with the A/C off. Sure, I'll take it to get fixed someday, but in the meantime I'm driving the snot out of the car...

Just drive it man, stop raising your blood pressure over petty things...

(zipping up the flame suit)


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

ChosenGSR said:


> I am convinced that BMWNA are pricks, and so are the BMW dealerships. It's too bad that BMW is unmatched when comes to driving experience because I would love to go elsewhere with my money. Hell, most dealership won't even give you a BMW as a loaner car, you'll be stuck driving an accord.


My dealership has been awesome so far.


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## ChadS (Jan 4, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> Buy your next BMW from a dealer that offers BMW loaners.
> 
> Not only does my dealer have BMW loaners they also have great service hours:
> Mon - Thurs. 7:00 am - Midnight
> ...


That is similar to how my dealer operates as well. Plus their loaner cars range all over. When I've been in for maintenance, I've had everything from an X5 to 330i SP, to an '04 525i for a loaner car. They usually give me a choice of what vehicle I want too. When we bought the Z4 we needed to bring it back up the following week for them to install the alarm as well as program the car/key memory. Because the service department knew that I had just bought the car and they were going to need it for the day they gave me an equivalent Z4 3.0 as a loaner car. They also offer valet service where they will pickup the car from where you want them to and leave you a loaner car. I know some people who have only been to the dealership to buy their car and have never been back for service since they pickup the car for them. Even if you just getting something small done and want to drop off the car and wait they will give you a gift certificate for any of the local restaurants and drive you there if you want. :thumbup:

Like mentioned above, if you live in an area with multiple BMW dealerships you really should make the service department a key deciding factor. Sure you could always buy your car somewhere else and take it to another dealership, but I know with my dealership certain perks are only available if you purchased the car from them.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

adc said:


> Your original post title said "Do not buy a ZHP if you want to actually drive it". Well, it seems to me that if you really wanted to drive it, you'd do just that. 3 out of your 4 complaints are cosmetic or minor, nothing to do with the driving experience. The 4th one would be driving related only if the car stalled.
> 
> :dunno: I know I may be coming across as a_prick, but I'm just trying to put some things in perspective as I thought your title was a little melodramatic. My car has a small rattle somewhere and the steering wheel squeaks/groans sometimes around the straight ahead position and it stalls in hot weather with the A/C off. Sure, I'll take it to get fixed someday, but in the meantime I'm driving the snot out of the car...
> 
> ...


Nah - I can see where you're coming from, but you don't have the full story.

Just for the record, the car did stall once. I had blocked it out of my memory, but my wife reminded me last night (I'll fix the original post to avoid misunderstandings).

But I wasn't the least bit up in arms about it. I didn't "complain" to the dealer about the idle fluctuation, nor demand that anything be fixed.

This was supposed to be a quick drop off/pick up to do things that should have been done before delivery but weren't. The idle fluctuation was literally mentioned in passing, but the SA, trying to be attentive, fixated on it (doing his job how he should - better than brushing me off, right?). I told him that I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, and I certainly didn't want his guys taking hours and driving the car 100 miles to try and replicate the problem. He said that he'd check the bulletins. Funny thing was, my description to him, and what he wrote on the ticket were quite different. Here's where it gets interesting: the language he used to write up the idle fluctuation is nearly identical to the text in the bulletin. Coincidence perhaps, perhaps not. Who knows?

Anyhow, I really just want my car (especially since I am paying for the damn thing!) When I talked to the SA, it sounded like I didn't have a choice about the DME being sent out. I almost begged him to keep the DME, give me my car back, and wait for the software to come in on disc. He stated unequivocally that the bulletin strictly requires that the DME be sent back to Germany for reprogramming and that there was no choice in the matter 

So, I agree! I'd love to just drive it, but they literally won't LET ME!


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

ClubSpec330i said:


> Good luck on your car and mini battle with BMW NA.


Thanks!

Ya know... if they had just been a LITTLE BIT nice about it and TRIED to help, and apologized, I think my outlook would be different. But they pushed all the wrong buttons.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

I'm afraid it's a little late now but I'll just say it. If I were you, I would have them fix the first three issues and get the car back and wait for an easier solution to the DME reprogram. I've been driving mine with this problem for 16 months now. As long as it doesn't stall, the rpm fluctuation is not really that unbearable. Many of us here are sharing the same problem with you, and we can all live with it. Also, can anyone guarantee that when the reprogrammed DME comes back in three weeks, all idle problems will be fixed? What if you find out the problem is still there? Wouldn't you be even more upset? I'd rather wait till everyone tells me that this is the real fix and can be done at the dealer, then I'll have mine fixed.


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

I am not trying to be mean spirited, but I was one of the people who told you three times in your original thread not to buy this car. You went into the deal expecting problems and now you're getting them. Several posters in the original thread, linked above in Hou330IZHP's post, said they would dread being your dealer. Kind of like deja vu. Good luck in your endeavours.


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## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

mtbscott said:


> I am not trying to be mean spirited, but I was one of the people who told you three times in your original thread not to buy this car. You went into the deal expecting problems and now you're getting them. Several posters in the original thread, linked above in Hou330IZHP's post, said they would dread being your dealer. Kind of like deja vu. Good luck in your endeavours.


Wow - I forgot that this was the same person.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

mtbscott said:


> I am not trying to be mean spirited, but I was one of the people who told you three times in your original thread not to buy this car. You went into the deal expecting problems and now you're getting them. Several posters in the original thread, linked above in Hou330IZHP's post, said they would dread being your dealer. Kind of like deja vu.


Ahem...

(1) Many more people posted "get it."
(2) I had a long discussion with the dealer where I was told "there is not a problem" and "if something crops up you'll be well taken care of" so...
(3) I went into the deal NOT expecting problems
(4) I have not complained about the dealer once, and have, in fact, complemented them numerous times
(5) The comment about them dreading being my dealer is just plain rude
(6) I have no issue with the fact that there is a problem, my issue is how BMW NA has handled it, as stated quite clearly in my posts



> Good luck in your endeavours


Thank you.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

mkh said:


> I'm afraid it's a little late now but I'll just say it. If I were you, I would have them fix the first three issues and get the car back and wait for an easier solution to the DME reprogram. I've been driving mine with this problem for 16 months now. As long as it doesn't stall, the rpm fluctuation is not really that unbearable. Many of us here are sharing the same problem with you, and we can all live with it.


That was my thinking. Check my above posts.



> Also, can anyone guarantee that when the reprogrammed DME comes back in three weeks, all idle problems will be fixed? What if you find out the problem is still there? Wouldn't you be even more upset? I'd rather wait till everyone tells me that this is the real fix and can be done at the dealer, then I'll have mine fixed.


I agree. As per my above posts, I did not want them to send the DME off to Germany. I wanted to wait for a software update. I was led to believe that I had no choice in the matter.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

I don't understand why BMW can't just send out an imrpoved DME, and then have the dealer ship your DME back when the improved on arrives. I guess that would be too logical?


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

robg said:


> I don't understand why BMW can't just send out an imrpoved DME, and then have the dealer ship your DME back when the improved on arrives...


Me neither. Could the DME be keyed to the car in some way? But if that were the case, replacing an outright failed DME wouldn't be possible... Anyone have any thoughts on this? Maybe it's just cheaper for BMW sending it back and forth? Since the dealer pays for the rental car, BMW doesn't care (frankly I think I detected some frustration in the SA's voice regarding how BMW is handling this problem, as if unfair financial burden was being placed on the dealer...)


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Hou330izhp said:


> kurichan, sorry to hear about your problems, some of us tried to warn you when you started this thread :
> 
> *My ZHP has arrived at dealer - I don't know if I want it...*
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64855
> ...


Thanks Hou330izhp. I'm not ready to say "you told me so, I wish I never bought this car!" :rofl:

Let's see how this turns out. Maybe my experience will save some others some pain :dunno:


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Me neither. Could the DME be keyed to the car in some way? But if that were the case, replacing an outright failed DME wouldn't be possible... Anyone have any thoughts on this? Maybe it's just cheaper for BMW sending it back and forth? Since the dealer pays for the rental car, BMW doesn't care (frankly I think I detected some frustration in the SA's voice regarding how BMW is handling this problem, as if unfair financial burden was being placed on the dealer...)


I really hope I'm wrong. I have a feeling that BMW still does not exactly know where the cause of the problem is and how to solve it. By sending bad DME's to them, they can have more time to diagnose the problem and fix it on an individual basis. That means they are trying to make a temporary fix to each individual DME, and that fix may not necessarily applied to others. They are still at the stage of gathering information and hoping to come up with a solution that can apply to all cases in general. When that happens, the fix can be and will be performed at the dealer. And again, this is just my own thinking and have absolutely nothing to back up. And I also hope this is not true!


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

mkh said:


> I really hope I'm wrong. I have a feeling that BMW still does not exactly know where the cause of the problem is and how to solve it. By sending bad DME's to them, they can have more time to diagnose the problem and fix it on an individual basis. That means they are trying to make a temporary fix to each individual DME, and that fix may not necessarily applied to others. They are still at the stage of gathering information and hoping to come up with a solution that can apply to all cases in general. When that happens, the fix can be and will be performed at the dealer. And I said again, this is just my own thinking and have absolutely nothing to back up. And I also hope this is not true!


That sounds painfully likely... 

No offense, but I HOPE you're wrong!


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

Kurichan, sorry to hear about this. Having them take the car away right after you got it really sucks, no matter what the reason. A couple of thoughts that might cheer you up a bit:

1) While you aren't driving your leased car, you also aren't adding miles to it. Maybe it will be the difference between being within the mileage limits and outside of them at lease end. You do live in socal, after all. It seems like there is a 10 mile penalty every time you sit down in the car.

2) If the dealer doesn't fix the swirl marks correctly, you are welcome to come over to my house and we will make the finish perfect - I can show you how to use a porter cable if you don't already know how and the car will shine like the sun. (Just be aware that it takes all day.)


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Got my ZHP two weeks ago.
> 
> Took it in this morning for the following issues:!


Bummer. I need to drop my ZHP off soon for a few niggling issues. I drive it so infrequently now that I sort of put up with the problems.

19k miles:
1 full repair for a defective parking brake
Moonroof rattles
Engine has little power under 4k
DSC light comes on constantly in a straightline even.

Shrug, this is my second german car in 4 years. It could very well be my last in 2006 when I toss the keys back to BMW.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Bummer. I need to drop my ZHP off soon for a few niggling issues. I drive it so infrequently now that I sort of put up with the problems.


Why don't you drive it?



> Shrug, this is my second german car in 4 years. It could very well be my last in 2006 when I toss the keys back to BMW.


Probably too early to tell, if you eliminate German, and I suspect American cars won't tempt you, what's left? Just Japanese?

Oh yeah - and put on some pants!


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## fpa1974 (Dec 16, 2002)

kurichan said:


> Me neither. Could the DME be keyed to the car in some way? But if that were the case, replacing an outright failed DME wouldn't be possible... Anyone have any thoughts on this? Maybe it's just cheaper for BMW sending it back and forth? Since the dealer pays for the rental car, BMW doesn't care (frankly I think I detected some frustration in the SA's voice regarding how BMW is handling this problem, as if unfair financial burden was being placed on the dealer...)


No, the DME is 'keyed' the first time you program it. I know because I had a fried unit (required towing of course) in my M coupe. My dealer got a new blank DME and programmed it with my car info and latest software when they received it.

Florian


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## NC540 (Jul 12, 2004)

Having owned several BMWs and currently own '99 323 (100+Kmiles) and '00 540 (57Kmiles), I can tell you the short term reliability isn't great. Altough, the only problem I've ever had with the 323 is the A/C compressor died at 95k miles. However, BMWs are near the top of the list in long term reliaibilty (3+ years). I know this doesn't help since your leasing and may never reach 3 years. But, BMWs are great, their known for the little quirks at the beginning of the ownership experience, but will be solid for many, many years to come.

If you want to talk about real problems get a VW or Jeep. I've owned both and had numerous short and long term problems. I actually felt guilty when I sold the VW, because I knew that the person that bought the car would constantly have it at the shop--even though I had replaced everything on it.

I know folks that own Lexus, Infinity, Honda, etc., don't think they don't have issues. Ask G35 owners about how their front paint is chipping off. Go to Lexus or Honda, etc. forums and you'll see the same complaints as the one you've described about their dealers and/or automaker reps.


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## Frank Rizzo (Aug 2, 2003)

So we dont loose sight of the original issue:

It is INSANE to spend north of $40k on a car and be treated like this. I can deal with the problems, all cars have problems - but not the solution/treatment they offered you so far.....although I could have been OK with the news depending on the delivery of the information. What I cant deal with is the the "tough s**t meathead" mentality from the dealer and BMWNA.

I'm tellin ya; start calling the dealer and tell them that the car has been in "the shop" *longer* than it has been in your posession and according to Song-Beverly you want to have the vehicle repurchased immediately. Thell them you want to "unwind" the deal right now.

Which dealer is it? Maybe I should call them and pose as Mr. Heywood Jablome Esq. and that I am representing Mr. Kurichan - who we feel has been damaged greatly from his loss of use/breach of implied warranty - due primarially by your malfeasant actions....and we will be seeking punitive and compensatory damages....
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Why don't you drive it?
> 
> Probably too early to tell, if you eliminate German, and I suspect American cars won't tempt you, what's left? Just Japanese?
> 
> Oh yeah - and put on some pants!


I rarely drive it because I have an 80 mile commute to work and use my Protege for that drive. Thus the BMW rolls out on weekends.

And yeah, I'm pretty much left with Japanese cars next. I think a Mazdaspeed3 hatch with a 270 hp 2.3 liter twin turbo and awd sounds mighty yummy.

I'll still try all the cars in 2006, just not sure German cars will get a fair shake.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Frank Rizzo said:


> So we dont loose sight of the original issue:
> 
> It is INSANE to spend north of $40k on a car and be treated like this. I can deal with the problems, all cars have problems - but not the solution/treatment they offered you so far.....although I could have been OK with the news depending on the delivery of the information. What I cant deal with is the the "tough s**t meathead" mentality from the dealer and BMWNA.


Actually, the dealer is busting its hump to help. It's BMW NA who has been horrible. But you make a good point.



> I'm tellin ya; start calling the dealer and tell them that the car has been in "the shop" *longer* than it has been in your posession and according to Song-Beverly you want to have the vehicle repurchased immediately. Thell them you want to "unwind" the deal right now.


If the car is in the shop for longer than I've had it in my possesion, I will definitely consider that. We're not there yet.



> Which dealer is it? Maybe I should call them and pose as Mr. Heywood Jablome Esq. and that I am representing Mr. Kurichan - who we feel has been damaged greatly from his loss of use/breach of implied warranty - due primarially by your malfeasant actions....and we will be seeking punitive and compensatory damages....
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I don't think we're there yet.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

rwg said:


> Kurichan, sorry to hear about this. Having them take the car away right after you got it really sucks, no matter what the reason. A couple of thoughts that might cheer you up a bit:


I like your approach!



> While you aren't driving your leased car, you also aren't adding miles to it.


Yeah - thought about that - I wish I had a long distance trip planned that could provide some extra satisfaction in this respect, but alas, I don't... Until just about the time the car is due back...  Cosmic injustice, wouldn't ya say? :rofl:



> 2) If the dealer doesn't fix the swirl marks correctly, you are welcome to come over to my house and we will make the finish perfect - I can show you how to use a porter cable if you don't already know how and the car will shine like the sun. (Just be aware that it takes all day.)


Cool - thanks for the offer. Let's see how it comes out and go from there. Regardless of the finish, we ought to get together and compare notes. Where are you in San Diego? Maybe better to PM me with a reply?


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

Ok. Check the pm box.

You said the dealer was BMW of San Diego, right? I wonder how the "corporate" ownership affects the service department. It sounds like the service tech was trying to take care of you (even if it did mean killing the car for a couple weeks), but this whole "send it off to Germany" thing sounds really weird to me.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

rwg said:


> Ok. Check the pm box.
> 
> You said the dealer was BMW of San Diego, right?


Just to set the record straight, it is not BMW SD. I don't want to mention the dealer's name in public because even though they are doing a good job, someone could misread the thread, misconstrue blame on the dealer (as has happened already in this thread) and that wouldn't be fair, especially since they are trying so hard to be helpful.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

The SA just called.

He said the DME is back in the car and it's been test driven.

They are starting to detail it now. I'll be able to pick it up today or tomorrow.

I hope the problem is really solved (more than a few people have PM'ed me implying that BMW doesn't really know what's wrong yet, so they can't really fix it...).

Will report...


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

kurichan said:


> The SA just called.
> 
> He said the DME is back in the car and it's been test driven.
> 
> ...


It's hard to believe it only took 3 days, back and forth to Germany? And fixed? If it's true, my hats off to them. Well, keep us informed. Good Luck!


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

mkh said:


> It's hard to believe it only took 3 days, back and forth to Germany? And fixed? If it's true, my hats off to them. Well, keep us informed. Good Luck!


Picked up. It's true, but I doubt the DME was sent to Germany and back. Maybe they sent a new one, or maybe it went to NJ?

The car looks gorgeous. They did the detailing right except for a few small nits.

And the car runs. Only time will tell if it's really been fixed. Maybe it's my imagination, but somehow the car doesn't seem as punchy. It better have a ZHP set DME in it!

Also got the memory programmed, including flashing lamps on lock/unlock. The clown nose blinks too, so don't let the dealer tell you it can't be done, because it worked fine on my car.

The radio is still horrible. Bad reception, poor audio quality. Haven't listened to a CD yet. At least the speakers don't seem to rattle...


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

kurichan said:


> Picked up. It's true, but I doubt the DME was sent to Germany and back. Maybe they sent a new one, or maybe it went to NJ?


Pssst....it did not go back to Germany, it was never going to go back to Germany. You either had a new sw flash installed or received a new DME unit (my guess since they did not do it in a day).



kurichan said:


> The car looks gorgeous. They did the detailing right except for a few small nits.


Surprising but glad to hear so  The local CCA club is having a detail clinic in Sept at my dealer. Self admittedly they said they will only do basic stuff since they do not have the right *ability* to do a OCD job. I'll do my car they day before to show all the difference :bigpimp:



kurichan said:


> And the car runs. Only time will tell if it's really been fixed. Maybe it's my imagination, but somehow the car doesn't seem as punchy. It better have a ZHP set DME in it!


With a new flash or unit, the default will be intact. The computer adjusts to your driving habits, so it will take a bit to get some of the punchy feeling back.



kurichan said:


> Also got the memory programmed, including flashing lamps on lock/unlock. The clown nose blinks too, so don't let the dealer tell you it can't be done, because it worked fine on my car


Yep it is :bs: that you can't do these things. A good rep should do it with you at delivery to make sure it has all the setting you want.



kurichan said:


> The radio is still horrible. Bad reception, poor audio quality. Haven't listened to a CD yet. At least the speakers don't seem to rattle...


I don't think you want me to comment here   :supdude:


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## e46shift (Oct 12, 2002)

www.dealerrater.com


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

e46shift said:


> www.dealerrater.com


OK, I'll be sure to give them a good rating! Thanks!


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

> I don't think you want me to comment here [about the crappy radio]   :supdude:


Actually, I'd love to hear your comments, get a thread link, or a PM. Let me down hard! Give it to me straight!


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

rumratt said:


> Can I come too? If I leave from NY now I'll be there by next weekend.


Absolutley. But, how are you going to get the car home? You certainly don't plan to DRIVE it after we spend a weekend detailing it, do you? :rofl:


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