# Anatomy of BMW car buyback process?



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

IMO this will be done at the dealer level, not by BMWNA.

It will be hard if not impossible for youi to get clarity on this deal- how much BMWNA is paying, etc IMO, BMWNA has offered the dealer $xxxx to make this go away...and the dealer is playing you to keep as much of that $xxxx as they can...

The dealer will be selling a low mile CPO elite, and making money off that AND putting you into a new car- maybe making a bit there too...

If you feel like you are getting a bad deal, OR if you want to demand some specific numbers, you can always threaten to send BMW a lemon buyback letter and be done with them...


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jjrandorin said:


> So, My wife just picked up her old X5 last week, and basically is refusing to drive it at night because she is worried about the lighting issue returning. ... I told him I was looking for a vehicle substitution (just the new vin plugged into my current lease) and he said something like " I dont know if they do that... let me check but I dont think they do that", and if they do it may take a month or more".


JJ,

Here's the deal. You do not have a cause of action under California's Lemon Law because it doesn't cover "fear" of something happening, only something that "actually happens." Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic, just pointing out where you stand.

They won't do a substitution because that's something they really, really want to avoid. What they are doing is going out of their way to keep you a happy camper. Here's how this will almost certainly go down, assuming you're interested in taking them up on it. They will tell the dealership that the money factor must be the buy rate, the cap cost will be invoice minus all applicable incentives and probably minus a yet to be determined rebate from BMWNA designed to keep you a happy camper. In other words, they would offer you an extra incentive, sort of like if you were to buy a factory exec car or something. I have seen that happen and it's definitely not a substitution and your old car doesn't have to be branded.

That's just my guess at what they are proposing based on experience, although that experience was certainly not recent.

Good luck!


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## stonex1 (Oct 10, 2012)

jjrandorin said:


> It does not happen every time you drive the car, only "sometimes"... but once it happens on start up, it will happen if you turn the car off and back on, until the car is allowed to fully go to "sleep" (10 ish minutes).
> 
> Been to the dealer for the issue, they tried software updates / re flashes twice, and third time they kept the car for a week and half and then replaced some module... problem remains.


I'm surprised they can't fix this. It sounds like a faulty connector, cold solder in a connector, or cooked wiring somewhere.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Ninong said:


> JJ,
> 
> Here's the deal. You do not have a cause of action under California's Lemon Law because it doesn't cover "fear" of something happening, only something that "actually happens." Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic, just pointing out where you stand.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ninong (and Ard),

Regarding the Lemon Law, the lighting modules have failed 4 separate times, how many times would it have to fail for me to be eligible for the Lemon Law buyback program? I am not being argumentative, because I completely appreciate the frank advice. I am just trying to make sure I have a 100 percent clear picture of where I stand, and not sure I 100 percent understand your advice on this topic. If you want to take the conversation to PMs I am completely open to that as well, because I dont want others to jump on you etc. If your comfortable in the thread thats ok too.

Regarding your second point, you (and ard) are likely right, in that they will probably offer the dealer a rebate or something to help this go away and make / keep me happy. I prefer partnerships to adversarial relationships, so I am not adverse to this. I just want to make sure I am being "made whole" as it were... without a ton of extra costs.

I could see why they would want to avoid a buyback branding on the car, so I guess it boils down to what assistance they will be giving the dealer to help me make this deal... and if they are not substituting a vehicle, its likely that i could end up with a higher payment which i definitely do NOT want. I am definitely going to end up with a higher residual number because when I got the car in January the X5 residuals were 58 percent, now they are 60 percent... but I got 3k in incentives, NOT counting my corporate incentive... so I got a 70.5K X5 with a cap cost of 62K, which I thought was pretty good.

In any case, any information helps, as I can be prepared. Is it reasonable for me to expect the Sales Manager to tell me what incentive he is getting from BMW to help with this (transparency in the numbers)?


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

stonex1 said:


> I'm surprised they can't fix this. It sounds like a faulty connector, cold solder in a connector, or cooked wiring somewhere.


They have "fixed" it 4 times so far.... the other 3 times the same issue has come back but its random. Thing is, since I troubleshoot IT equipment for a living, I know how difficult it can be to track down "intermittent" issues, so I am not that bent out of shape with the dealership or service department.

With that being said, we feel this particular car is a lemon with electrical gremlins.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jjrandorin said:


> Thanks Ninong (and Ard),
> 
> Regarding the Lemon Law, the lighting modules have failed 4 separate times, how many times would it have to fail for me to be eligible for the Lemon Law buyback program? I am not being argumentative, because I completely appreciate the frank advice. I am just trying to make sure I have a 100 percent clear picture of where I stand, and not sure I 100 percent understand your advice on this topic.


California's Lemon Law is purposefully vague. That's how it was written and how the lawmakers wanted it to be. The general guidelines for defects that do not involve an imminent threat to your personal safety, are a minimum of four attempts to fix the same problem, at least one of which involves the manufacturer's own employee. If, after all of those attempts, they are unsuccessful in correcting the defect, you have a case to make for why this should be handled under California's Lemon Law. The manufacturer knows where he stands and if he believes you would prevail if you took this to the state commission that arbitrates these things, he won't let it go that far. He will take action to remedy the situation and satisfy you.

Always remember that California's Lemon Law doesn't mean that if they try to fix your car x-number of times or keep it in their shop x-number of days you automatically get a new car. It just means you are now ready to appeal this higher if the manufacturer doesn't voluntarily work something out with you before it goes that far. In my experience, BMW was always able to work something out to keep the customer happy. That was my experience not only with BMW in California but with GM in California, too. That's based on 21 years of experience in California (I'm not counting a dozen years prior to that in a different state that didn't have a Lemon Law at all.)

Don't forget that *ard* is speaking from his personal experience in his own individual case. I don't know what his situation involved although he has posted about it previously.  I'm sure he could tell you about his case if you PM him. I don't know if it's similar to yours or not. In case you haven't noticed, *ard* takes a more adversarial approach to these matters than I do, because as he has pointed out to me on several occasions, I'm biased in favor of BMW.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

My experience with a buyback is that BMWNA will do anything to avoid a "lemon". In my case they bought the car back with some charge for miles driven. As I recall it was a very fair settlement. I owned the car so not not sure how this compares to a leased car.


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## reitmc (May 19, 2016)

I may have mentioned this in a previous post, we did have an issue several years ago with my first BMW. The car would not lock, or unlock properly.
We took it in on 4 separate occasions and it became a safety issue. We would get locked out of the car often. The locking system worked on and off.
We also felt the car was a lemon and wrote a letter to corporate.

I received a call from the dealer and the car was replaced with a new one.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Ninong said:


> California's Lemon Law is purposefully vague. That's how it was written and how the lawmakers wanted it to be. The general guidelines for defects that do not involve an imminent threat to your personal safety, are a minimum of four attempts to fix the same problem, at least one of which involves the manufacturer's own employee. If, after all of those attempts, they are unsuccessful in correcting the defect, you have a case to make for why this should be handled under California's Lemon Law. The manufacturer knows where he stands and if he believes you would prevail if you took this to the state commission that arbitrates these things, he won't let it go that far. He will take action to remedy the situation and satisfy you.
> 
> Always remember that California's Lemon Law doesn't mean that if they try to fix your car x-number of times or keep it in their shop x-number of days you automatically get a new car. It just means you are now ready to appeal this higher if the manufacturer doesn't voluntarily work something out with you before it goes that far. In my experience, BMW was always able to work something out to keep the customer happy. That was my experience not only with BMW in California but with GM in California, too. That's based on 21 years of experience in California (I'm not counting a dozen years prior to that in a different state that didn't have a Lemon Law at all.)
> 
> Don't forget that *ard* is speaking from his personal experience in his own individual case. I don't know what his situation involved although he has posted about it previously.  I'm sure he could tell you about his case if you PM him. I don't know if it's similar to yours or not. In case you haven't noticed, *ard* takes a more adversarial approach to these matters than I do, because as he has pointed out to me on several occasions, I'm biased in favor of BMW.


Thanks, yeah I remember reading Ards post as well and am grateful for all the information everyone is providing. I try to help others out here so its nice to get some help too 

Just to update, My wife and I went to to the dealer to drive a Diesel X5, which is something we had considered when we were shopping in january, but was not available. Sales Manager mentioned that there was a diesel X5 that was coming in that hit all of my wifes must haves on options, including one of her desired colors.

We had never driven a BMW modern Diesel, so we went to his lot during lunch time to drive a Diesel X5. She came away extremely impressed with the torque, and how the car drove.

The one coming in has a higher MSRP than the one we have (the one coming in is around 75.5K and ours was 70.5k). She wants to get the one coming in, so now that we have picked a car, the SM is going back to the regional guy to see what can be worked out.

From the conversation that I had with the SM today, he mentioned he spoke to the regional BMW guy and he thinks I will be happy with what they come up with.

I came away from todays meeting feeling much better than I did yesterday, but he needed to see what car we wanted before he went back to them to see what could be done.

Nevertheless, I believe this is going to be handled in a way I am happy with, and I think I will have an ally at this dealer... the SM there is new (most of the sales staff I was unhappy with previously is gone, and the new staff seem a lot more accommodating).

I will update the thread on the final resolution (likely in general terms), but thank you all for the knowledge and listening to me complain a bit.

:thumbup:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

rmorin49 said:


> My experience with a buyback is that BMWNA will do anything to avoid a "lemon". In my case they bought the car back with some charge for miles driven. As I recall it was a very fair settlement. I owned the car so not not sure how this compares to a leased car.


No difference really. The only difference when it's a leased car is that they will usually find one that matches the one they are taking back, make some adjustments for miles already driven, and have the customer sign a substitution agreement. That's the way it works when the car is only a few months old and that's when most of these issues come up and are resolved.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Glad to hear it's moving along nicely. If you're not THRILLED with the final offer they give you for the 35D, I'd tell them the following:

"I want the same model we have now, with an acceptable color combination (give them a couple choices), and all the options on our current one.

"My current payment is $XXX per month. I want the same number of miles, and a new payment that is within $10/month of my current. No drive away costs, as I've already paid those once. And substitute transportation for my wife till it arrives.

"I don't care what you have to do with incentives, MF, etc. to get there. I feel that's a fair resolution and that's all I'm asking.

"I do appreciate the work you've done on our behalf, and promise I will give you perfect CSI scores on any survey that comes my way. Deal?"


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

reitmc said:


> I may have mentioned this in a previous post, we did have an issue several years ago with my first BMW. The car would not lock, or unlock properly.
> We took it in on 4 separate occasions and it became a safety issue. We would get locked out of the car often. The locking system worked on and off.
> We also felt the car was a lemon and wrote a letter to corporate.
> 
> I received a call from the dealer and the car was replaced with a new one.





jjrandorin said:


> Thanks, yeah I remember reading Ards post as well and am grateful for all the information everyone is providing. I try to help others out here so its nice to get some help too
> 
> Just to update, My wife and I went to to the dealer to drive a Diesel X5, which is something we had considered when we were shopping in january, but was not available. Sales Manager mentioned that there was a diesel X5 that was coming in that hit all of my wifes must haves on options, including one of her desired colors.
> 
> ...


Both of these posts are typical of my personal experience with BMW of North America. They will go out of their way to keep their customers happy, assuming there is a real issue involved and assuming the customer makes an effort to get BMWNA involved. That's the key. Make sure you let BMWNA know that you are having a problem that the dealer is having trouble correcting and you would like them to please investigate and advise you what they would like to do to resolve this matter.


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## reitmc (May 19, 2016)

I think you will be happy with the diesel. We have a 328iD which gets great gas mileage , love the car.
Just purchased a X5D, so far we love it. We've only had it two weeks!


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

PS. The 35D is a two edged sword. Mrs. Quack loved the torque. Till the first time she had to fill it up and spilled Diesel on her shoes. From that moment on, I was the only one who drove it, till my kids got their permits.

Wasn't a problem for me, as I loved the torque and there are no Jimmie Choo's in my footwear collection. Just make sure your wife's eyes (and nose) are open before you go D.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

quackbury said:


> PS. The 35D is a two edged sword. Mrs. Quack loved the torque. Till the first time she had to fill it up and spilled Diesel on her shoes. From that moment on, I was the only one who drove it, till my kids got their permits.
> 
> Wasn't a problem for me, as I loved the torque and there are no Jimmie Choo's in my footwear collection. Just make sure your wife's eyes (and nose) are open before you go D.


Oh wow had not even considered that... does it smell / stain that bad? I think we would be ok, hopefully because we both wear jeans and tennis shoes to work (so our fancy shoes are nike and brooks lol).


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jjrandorin said:


> Oh wow had not even considered that... does it smell / stain that bad? I think we would be ok, hopefully because we both wear jeans and tennis shoes to work (so our fancy shoes are nike and brooks lol).


If you carry a supply of those cheap disposable plastic gloves (the ones that look like the clear plastic bags you put produce in at the supermarket) in your glove box, your wife should be okay. It's definitely easy to get that stuff on your hands when you even touch the pump handle. Do not point the nozzle down or it might drip diesel onto your car or your shoes or anything else underneath it.

In other words, just be super careful that you don't drip it on your car or your hands or your clothes or you will regret it.



P.S. -- Some stations even have a dispenser of paper towels next to their pumps, so you can always pull out a bunch of those to make sure you do not actually touch the diesel pump with your bare hands. Then remember to keep the nozzle pointed up until you are ready to stick it in the tank opening and do that very carefully. Your wife will not be a happy camper if she gets it on her hands or her clothes.


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## bagspacked (Jan 11, 2016)

Ninong said:


> California's Lemon Law is purposefully vague.


I am sure you are basing this on personal experience, which is probably more valuable than my reading/research, but I don't think that the California law is vague at all in this case. A vague law would say something like "unable to be fixed after a reasonable number of attempts" and leave it at that.

This law also includes a lemon law presumption, which as you mention says that a car is is presumed to be a lemon after 4 failed attempts, 2 that involve "likely death or serious bodily injury" (which I'd argue this is, no lights!!), or 30 days in the shop, or a few other things. That presumption means that the burden of proof is now on BMW that this car is not a lemon, and not on jj to prove that it's a lemon. The law and the 4 repair invoices have done all the work for him. The law also specifies what needs to happen, down to the amount of money to be paid out, if the car is a lemon. It also allows for free arbitration provided by the state of California (paid for by the manufacturer). For BMW I believe it's through the Better Business Bureau (the process is listed in your manual). The manufacturer must abide by the arbitrator's ruling, but you don't have to, and the manufacturer must pay your legal fees if it comes to that and you win. I actually think that's a pretty specific and consumer-friendly rule. All of it serves to encourage the manufacturers NOT to keep appealing to make you go away, but rather to deal with it quickly so as to avoid all those expenses. Because, according to the law, your car is a lemon. An arbitrator will look at the 4 invoices and the odometer and be done in 10 mins. You can read several stories of people with N63 issues that were still under warranty getting new cars or large checks extremely quickly by following this process on the forum, without paying any fees or spending much time.

There's a helpful guide to the process here, published by the state of CA: http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/englemn.pdf

As for jj's specific situation, hopeful you can work something out with the dealer but it seems pretty clear that the law is on your side would you want to go the lemon route. If you do that though, you probably won't end up with the diesel...


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

The advice about paper towels and plastic gloves is sound. But re-read my post.

The problem arises when the meathead in the F350 that used the pump before you spills some on the ground. And then your unwitting wife steps in said puddle when she's coming home from a late day at work, and her Nikes track it into your carpets.

Yeah, diesel smells awful. Robert Duvall would say the smell of diesel in the morning is the polar opposite of the smell of napalm in the morning: it smells like fail, not victory.

Don't feel bad. I never considered this either before we got our 35d, which was also our first diesel. Maybe your wife has a fetish for things-that-smell-awful, and she won't mind it one bit.

But mine did.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

California's lemon law is vague in some aspects, but there is case law to fill in those blanks. It is pretty specific and consumer friendly compared to many other states. If you read some of the lemon law sites that summarize different states you can appreciate this.

JJ- if you are in California, issues with diesel fuel are basically non-issues. Almost laughable actually. Our local costco now has diesel. I have a diesel truck, tractor and X5. Zero issues with splashing, pumping, etc, etc. You get gas on you hand it smells like gas...diesel smells like diesel. So dont.

I guess Ive been around diesels all my life- 1970 VW diesel rabbit in the family, then a 220D, tractors, rental cars in europe... then an F250 ibefore the X5... Given the pump situation in California, I just cannot appreicate these diesel horror stories.

Finally a buyback lets BMWNA avoid a title brand- THAT is what motivates BMW to 'treat you right'. If BMW decides to fight, the dealer is gone, gone, gone (and Nimong would likely not be in the loop)...then it is you and BMWNAs paralegals dancing. No bending over backwards. My deal hinged on them being pricks about tire tread at lemon turn in- I said 'legal depth, so above wear bars', they said "we want lease return to apply". I had to play hardball (this is a place where the CA law is silent actually). Anyway, it was not a warm and fuzzy process. But again, they ONLY bend over backwards when they can avoid having to brand the title- once you trigger a lemon claim, no more dealership involved, no more nice guy.

All IME

Oh, so this is the leveage you do have- 'I can lemon this or you can do a buyback to avoid that- I dont care'. Not everyone has the stomach for the latter though...


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

PS. Sorry about the Apocalpse Now reference on this, the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. No disrespect intended to ard and any other WWI vets who may be reading this.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

bagspacked said:


> I am sure you are basing this on personal experience, which is probably more valuable than my reading/research, but I don't think that the California law is vague at all in this case. A vague law would say something like "unable to be fixed after a reasonable number of attempts" and leave it at that.


My statement was too specific and went too far. Perhaps I should have said that its application is inconsistent and information the customer receives, depending on who he talks to, can be vague and sometimes confusing. It is much less confusing once the customer is in direct contact with the manufacturer. Therefore, if you think you have an issue that you think calls for Lemon Law attention, talk directly to the manufacturer.

Let me return to something I believe I said and make that my final statement, okay? Based on 21 years of experience in the state of California with both GM and BMW, both manufacturers always went out of their way to accommodate their customers, assuming there really was an issue, and in all of the cases I am personally aware of (numbering probably no more than two or three a year over two decades) the customer was satisfied with the result. Since I am not an attorney, I'll leave it at that.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

ard said:


> California's lemon law is vague in some aspects, but there is case law to fill in those blanks. It is pretty specific and consumer friendly compared to many other states. If you read some of the lemon law sites that summarize different states you can appreciate this.


All of California's laws pertaining to consumer protection are the most consumer oriented anywhere in the country. If a customer has a problem and the dealership can't solve it after two visits for the exact same problem, the customer has to decide whether to call the manufacturer now or wait until he gives the dealership a third shot at it. To satisfy the law's requirements, one of the four attempts must involve the manufacturer's employee. So either bring him in now or wait until the dealership fails three times, that's up to the customer.

I would tell them to wait until after the dealership fails three times first before calling up the factory and letting them know about the problem. If they let the dealership fail four or five times but none of those attempts involved the manufacturer's own expert, the manufacturer gets to try to fix it one more time under their direct supervision. Usually they just change out everything at that point. At least that is what I have seen them do.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Thanks everyone, I do really appreciate all the advice and information! You guys never cease to amaze me 

As I mentioned in my last post, after my second meeting with the Sales Manager (in the presence of the GM who happened to be there at that time), I got a good vibe from the SM about this getting taken care of in a manner I would be happy with. Of course, the sales manager IS a polished salesman. When I first met with him, he did not promise me things he was not sure he could deliver, and I respect that. After he spoke with the "area factory guy" he said he felt that I would be happy with the results, but he had to work out the details with the factory area guy. 

I got the impression from him that I would be able to get the diesel X5 that was 5K more and not have more payment.. but again he stated he needed to work out the details to make sure this was going to happen. The General Manager pledged to do whatever they could do to help me.

Let me also state that I did not go in there with threats or anything.... I really try not to do that. I just told them how disappointed I was in THIS vehicle, and how I planned on driving BMWs for a long time, etc.. and that we wanted another X5 so we were not sour on either the model or the brand...just THAT car. I chatted with them for a bit and we laughed together about some things, etc...

I posted this somewhere else on bimmerfest, but there is always a large difference in something people Have to do, and something they CAN do... the trick is convincing them that yours is a cause worth fighting for, or you are worth being the "exception" etc. 

This thread helped me tremendously, by knowing the terminology (vehicle substitution, lemon law particulars etc should I need them etc). The process is moving a little slower than I would like, but the car we decided on is in transit. If this works out the way it seems like it will now (which I wont know until everything is done of course), I will be a happy camper, and I did feel that they want me to be happy.

I gave all of your warnings about diesel fuel to my wife. She thinks she will be ok, because our local costco (just like ard mentioned) has diesel now, and they are always busy and walking around checking on things. Shes kinda set on the diesel unless I veto it, and she said she would carry some of those plastic gloves you guys mentioned around. we already have some nitrile gloves (costco) for cleaning / handling meat etc. I think this might be the safest way for us to try a diesel actually. we are 6 months into this lease, so we are talking about 2.5 years... and with the possibility of a 2-3 month pull ahead now about 2 years ish.

Anyways, thanks again everyone.


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## Hachima (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm on the opposite side of things with the end of my 4 year warranty coming to an end but I have now taken my car in for the 5th time over the last year for an issue that still has not been resolved. The short version is the car will stall and lose power randomly and each time it becomes a dangerous situation and mostly on the freeway.

Does anyone have any experience with situations like this with BMW offering a buyback? Its past any lemon law coverage for any legal standpoint but BMW has been unable to resolve an issue that's suppose to be covered by the warranty.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Hachima said:


> I'm on the opposite side of things with the end of my 4 year warranty coming to an end but I have now taken my car in for the 5th time over the last year for an issue that still has not been resolved. The short version is the car will stall and lose power randomly and each time it becomes a dangerous situation and mostly on the freeway.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with situations like this with BMW offering a buyback? Its past any lemon law coverage for any legal standpoint but BMW has been unable to resolve an issue that's suppose to be covered by the warranty.


Have you spoken directly with BMW of North America about this? If not, you should. Just call them and tell them you have a serious safety issue that the dealership is unable to resolve and the car is still under factory warranty.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

jjrandorin said:


> Thanks everyone, I do really appreciate all the advice and information! You guys never cease to amaze me
> 
> As I mentioned in my last post, after my second meeting with the Sales Manager (in the presence of the GM who happened to be there at that time), I got a good vibe from the SM about this getting taken care of in a manner I would be happy with. Of course, the sales manager IS a polished salesman. When I first met with him, he did not promise me things he was not sure he could deliver, and I respect that. After he spoke with the "area factory guy" he said he felt that I would be happy with the results, but he had to work out the details with the factory area guy.
> 
> ...


Any update on the progress?


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

tturedraider said:


> Any update on the progress?


Thanks for asking. Tt,

Current status right now is this:

1. Sales Manager at the dealer I am working with has ordered a new 2016 X5 and let us pick the options. He had an allocation in status 112 that is production week 29. We just talked via phone, and he ordered the car with our exact desired specifications and gave me a production number on the spot. The reason for the order was, there was no car anywhere that he could get a dealer trade from or on his lot that had our desired, non negotiable options.

(Edit: I should mention that the X5 we currently have is fairly well optioned, but I put a couple more things on the one we ordered so it has a higher MSRP than our current one --- current one is 70.5K new one is 74.5k)

2. I have not signed anything, nor have we agreed to pricing or anything on this ordered car. The sales manager has told me that he is "working with BMW NA" on it, and will make it right, one way or another. I let him know my desired outcome was a trade assist (slot this vin into my current contract). We have been friendly, and I can tell he wants to help me.

Given how I know business works, I am fairly certain he needs to have the car I want in hand and then tell BMW NA "this is the car he wants, and we need XXX from you to make him whole" or some such...

3. BMW NA themseves has been pretty non communicative to me. The rep assigned to my account has basically been no help at all other than to say "we are looking into it". Luckily I met the "factory guy" regional rep at Bimmerfest and described my situation to him as I detailed above, and he emailed me directly to say he was working on it. Since he is normally not a "customer facing" person, I felt like my concern was being taking seriously.

4. The car still continues to exhibit issues even after the fourth fix. the lights have not failed as of yet, but the top and side cameras sometimes work and sometimes dont work. I took the car back down to the dealer and asked if they could put me in a loaner till the ordered car came in. They said that they had "reduced their loaner fleet" and did not even have any X5s as loaners, and they would not be able to give me a loaner for a month.

This was the service manager ( the SA's boss) telling me this in an apologetic tone. I did not push it, as I want everyone to be on the same page when the new car comes in thinking "I want to help this nice couple" not " man that guy was a #$%^@#%@# and I dont care what happens"...

My current plan is to see what they offer me when the new car comes in, and if I dont like it, I will complain higher.... but I really dont feel it will get that far at this point, because I think the dealer geniuinely wants to help me... its just a matter of getting BMW NA to sign off on what is needed to help me.

Week 29 production date is Beginning of August so I hope to have the car about 3weeks or so from now.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

*Amazed at how fast Bimmer.work is...*

I am tracking my replacement X5, and I called the BMW Genius line via phone. My X5 went into production today at 12:20 (it was about 2:30 when I called) and on a whim I went to check the Bimmer.work site with the vin they gave me.

My car is already there on bimmer.work. I know that the vin is a decoder, but its amazing to me that with just the last 7 it has all the info, AND its so up to date that the information was there within about 2 ish hours of my car being assigned a vin....


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

As long as the dealer knows that YOU know you could make this a formal lemon (and BMWNA would lose $20k), and the delaer tells this to BMW as the way to 'make the deal happen'..... 

Remember, youi are the one doing them the favor- by being reasonable and not using the lemon law to bludgeon them.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

ard said:


> As long as the dealer knows that YOU know you could make this a formal lemon (and BMWNA would lose $20k), and the delaer tells this to BMW as the way to 'make the deal happen'.....
> 
> Remember, youi are the one doing them the favor- by being reasonable and not using the lemon law to bludgeon them.


Thanks for the reminder, Ard.

If this ends up going in a direction I am not happy with, hopefully you wont mind me PM ing you for advice. Like I said, I dont think it will get that far, but I remember you have some experience with this so if it goes down that road I might need some pointers.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

I don't think it will...my post is really more to frame the situation for others in the future. 

GL!


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

jjrandorin said:


> Thanks for asking. Tt,
> 
> Current status right now is this:
> 
> ...


UPDATE:

As I mentioned in the above post, the dealer ordered a new X5 for us, since there was no car we could find that had the "must have" and "must not have" options we wanted. Specifically, "Must have" options were drivers assist + (even though we are having problems with those features, we really want them), Black Leather, comfort access, and NOT black exterior. "must NOT have" was any interior other than black, any black exterior, and third row seating.

The sales manager knew / knows that if we are not happy with whatever the accomodation is, he would just have a car to sell. He did not seem worried about that at all, as was geniuinely concerned (at least came across that way) in getting us taken care of one way or another.

BMW NA is / was pretty non communicative during this whole process. The assigned rep has sent us a couple of emails that say "we are looking into it". If the sales manager was not so customer friendly / forward, I would be a lot more frustrated. With that being said, This past friday my wife got a call from the BMW NA rep, and the rep basically said " Keep working with the Sales Manager on the new car. He can provide you any details".

I gave him a call, and he said that BW had approved a trade assist, but when I asked him for details of what we were going to be doing, what will be happening is a "substitution of collateral", in that they will be swapping the vin of the new car into my current contract.

Of course, I will see the final nuts and bolts when the new car comes in, but right now I am very happy with both BMW and my sales manager (@ Mossy BMW of Vista CA).

The end result will be that I will be in an ordered car that my wife picked all her desired options, that has a slightly higher MSRP, with the exact same payment and lease agreement I have now. Since I paid invoice minus incentives on my current deal, and there were like 4k in incentives, I feel this is an excellent outcome, and I am completely happy with BMW NA and my dealer as well.

Like I said, I need to actually SEE this happen when the car comes in, but thats where we are now... and as long as everything proceeds as discussed, I am very happy with the proposed outcome.

I will provide another update when the new X5 comes in and we pick it up, as I am a little curious on things like how the Residual Value will be handled since the new car is more expensive, but I am very happy right now with the solution that I am receiving.

Thanks everyone for your advice, and also thanks specifically to ninong and michael who provided me some off line advice as well.


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## bagspacked (Jan 11, 2016)

Glad to hear you're on your way to an acceptable resolution.


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## Squeak (Sep 13, 2014)

jjrandorin said:


> I am tracking my replacement X5, and I called the BMW Genius line via phone. My X5 went into production today at 12:20 (it was about 2:30 when I called) and on a whim I went to check the Bimmer.work site with the vin they gave me.
> 
> My car is already there on bimmer.work. *I know that the vin is a decoder, but its amazing to me that with just the last 7 it has all the info*, AND its so up to date that the information was there within about 2 ish hours of my car being assigned a vin....


I am pretty sure it is not a decoder, but instead uses the last 7 to look up inside a BMW provided database. That is how it gets all of the info.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Squeak said:


> I am pretty sure it is not a decoder, but instead uses the last 7 to look up inside a BMW provided database. That is how it gets all of the info.


I dont know.. that would imply that these online vin decoders have access to a BMW database somewhere, which I doubt. To me, it is more likely that it us using the checksum of the last 7 digits to decode the options than it is that it is looking it up in a BMW PROVIDED database.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Then every car with the same options would have the same VIN wouldn't it?


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

quackbury said:


> Then every car with the same options would have the same VIN wouldn't it?


Hmm.. I guess you are right (at least the last 7). It just seems strange to me that all these various vin decoder sites would have access to a BMW database. Maybe its a governmental database, and the info is available due to freedom of information? No clue, just speculating out loud but you are absolutely correct that if it was simply a checksum then cars with the same exact features would end up with the same vin which we know is not done....


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## bagspacked (Jan 11, 2016)

There's simply not enough information contained in those 7 digits to encode all the options that are or have been possible, and all the other info that the vin decoders show (production date, etc etc). My understanding is that those 7 digits are the serial number and yes that information is saved somewhere and associated with the serial number.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

jjrandorin said:


> Of course, I will see the final nuts and bolts when the new car comes in, but right now I am very happy with both BMW and my sales manager (@ Mossy BMW of Vista CA).
> 
> The end result will be that I will be in an ordered car that my wife picked


I Grew up in San Diego and remember when Mossy got started with it's sole Nissan Dealer, when I left SD in 97 they had 4 car dealers, surprised to see they expanded into the premium cars. So what is the color combo?


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Eagle11 said:


> I Grew up in San Diego and remember when Mossy got started with it's sole Nissan Dealer, when I left SD in 97 they had 4 car dealers, surprised to see they expanded into the premium cars. So what is the color combo?


Check this out :

http://www.mossy.com/dealer-info/dealership-information That is the size of the mossy dealership organization in san diego now.

This is their only BMW dealer that I am aware of, and frankly it feels to me like they bought it so the owners could drive BMWs (its not in a great spot, and they bought it from a stand alone dealer).

To answer your question, Space Gray / Black Dakota.(fineline oak trim) I wanted beige interior but the wife likes black interiors, and its her car.

We decided to try the 35D this time instead of the 35i, and it has the following packages:
Drivers Assist
Drivers Assist+ (with ACC with Stop N go)
Lighting Package
M Sport
Premium Package
Harmon Kardon
Multi Contour Seating
Smartphone Integration

Our current car is similar, except its a 35I and does not have lighting pack and multi contour seating, nor does it have ACC with stop n go. Conversely our current car has soft close doors and rear shades and cold weather package.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

jjrandorin said:


> Check this out :
> 
> http://www.mossy.com/dealer-info/dealership-information That is the size of the mossy dealership organization in san diego now.
> 
> ...


Truly amazing, they bought Pacific Beach Nissan, then changed their name to Mossy Nissan, then had one of the Nissan Dealers in the southbay. I remember when I was in Lemon Grove last (yeah, I grew up there) they bought the Honda Dealer there..

Nice X5, I cant wait to hear your thoughts on the the Oil Burner, if I was to get a X5 that would be the model.. We have the ACC on our 328, I love it my only frustrating issue is having the distance set, there is still a big gap before you and the car in front (about 3 cars lengths) and people will merge in front of you, and of course the system slams the brakes to slow down...


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## schnell525 (Feb 6, 2007)

If you suspect you have a lemon or severely problematic car, and the dealer has made multiple attempts to "fix" or look at the car, you must absolutely contact BMW NA and do not trust the dealer in a b u y back process.

Corporate must know via a formal complaint from the consumer of the problem. A dealer may offer to relay problems to the factory rep, open a PUMA case, etc. However corporate may actually never know of a severe complaint if you don't notify them. If you rely on the dealer, you may not get what you expect.

If the dealer says, "we'll handle everything" do not follow that advice. Contact BMW NA yourself.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

schnell525 said:


> If you suspect you have a lemon or severely problematic car, and the dealer has made multiple attempts to "fix" or look at the car, you must absolutely contact BMW NA and do not trust the dealer in a b u y back process.
> 
> Corporate must know via a formal complaint from the consumer of the problem. A dealer may offer to relay problems to the factory rep, open a PUMA case, etc. However corporate may actually never know of a severe complaint if you don't notify them. If you rely on the dealer, you may not get what you expect.
> 
> If the dealer says, "we'll handle everything" do not follow that advice. Contact BMW NA yourself.


I think you need to read the whole thread to see what is happening.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> Hmm.. I guess you are right (at least the last 7). It just seems strange to me that all these various vin decoder sites would have access to a BMW database. Maybe its a governmental database, and the info is available due to freedom of information? No clue, just speculating out loud but you are absolutely correct that if it was simply a checksum then cars with the same exact features would end up with the same vin which we know is not done....


Check this out:

https://www.esurance.com/info/car/how-to-read-your-cars-vin

There is only one check digit(not in last 7).

There also digits to identify specific features(not in last 7), e.g. safety features, engine type, transmission, and body.

The last 7 digits include the plant code, then 6-digit of production number.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

schnell525 said:


> If you suspect you have a lemon or severely problematic car, and the dealer has made multiple attempts to "fix" or look at the car, you must absolutely contact BMW NA and do not trust the dealer in a b u y back process.
> 
> Corporate must know via a formal complaint from the consumer of the problem. A dealer may offer to relay problems to the factory rep, open a PUMA case, etc. However corporate may actually never know of a severe complaint if you don't notify them. If you rely on the dealer, you may not get what you expect.
> 
> If the dealer says, "we'll handle everything" do not follow that advice. Contact BMW NA yourself.


Yep, you are right, and I did :thumbup:

Waiting on the replacement car now.. its on a train on its way to the VPC in oxnard ca.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

So, I said I would come back and close the loop on this once I had final resolution. As a quick refresher:

1. Wife and I leased a new 2016 X5 from an Orange county California Dealer in Jan 2016
2. We work close to another dealer (Mossy BMW of Vista) which is where we take our cars for service
3. The new X5 had reoccuring problems with lighting modules and camera modules that have not been able to be repaired after multiple attempts. Car had < 3000 miles driven
4. After the 4th attempt at repair, I contacted BMW NA to express my desire for a replacement car due to ongoing problems.
5. BMW NA Techs worked with dealership to attempt to repair car, but car still continued to exhibit issues with either lighting or camera modules.
6. Our cars are leased through BMW FS

Where I left off, I was waiting for the replacement car that BMW Vista ordered to come in. We ordered a car because my wife could not find one she liked that they could dealer trade for etc.

So now that I have summarized the thread...

The ordered car has come in, and I have been working with the GSM at the dealership. He called me to tell me the car was in. We went down and filled out some paperwork called " Substitution of Collateral" which is basically where they swap cars on my lease contract. This means that my payment stays exactly the same, etc. The replacement car has an MSRP that is a little more than 4k more than my current X5. While my payment is not changing, the Residual value of the new car at the end of the lease is higher than my current car. This makes perfect sense to me, because the car is more expensive.

Logistically, the car needs to be re registered, but the dealer and BMW FS will handle re registering the new car. I will need to get new DMV plates etc, but again the dealer will handle that. 

I am extremely happy with how this has been handled by both BMW NA and the dealer I am working with. I was not even mad at the service department for not being able to fix the issues with the original car. The issues occurred randomly, and anyone who has had to troubleshoot / fix anything understands that tracking down an issue that only occurs randomly is difficult. I was just mad with the car itself.

We will be picking up the replacement car either this evening, or tomorrow morning, so this will be fully handled by tomorrow, and I feel BMW has taken care of me without me having to pursue the official channels.

Thanks everyone that chimed in here to give me advice and pointers. It allowed me to know what to ask for.


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## bagspacked (Jan 11, 2016)

Glad to hear this worked out for you - I was curious how it would. Sounds like you were working with some solid people and also took the right tack by not being too aggressive outright. Also, sounds like a pretty great resolution!


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## reitmc (May 19, 2016)

Great to hear this, post photos of new car!


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

You gonna post the VIN of the old (almost a lemon) car?

Or let BMW unload it on someone?



Not so straightforward, is it?


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

ard said:


> You gonna post the VIN of the old (almost a lemon) car?
> 
> Or let BMW unload it on someone?
> 
> ...


LMAO thats an interesting thought, ard. You are right, its NOT so straight forward. If I were to, say, post the vin in this thread, someone google seaching for that vin might come up with this thread, and not buy the car (which is your point I am sure).

I have let the dealership know that it (the car) is still having random camera issues. The lighting issue seems to have been solved, but sometimes the top and side cameras prompt an error message (dont work). This is after the camera modules and the controller have been replaced.

If I was angry with BMW over how this has been handled on my end, I would absolutely post the vin number and not really care about it.... but I am NOT angry, and I feel they have taken good care of me. With that being said, I am sure the "spirit" of them taking care of me is to not have a "lemon branded" car. If I post the vin, it will be the same as branding the car as a lemon.

People can say "its the internet, they wont know it was you"... but I would say "its the internet, you can always find out.. much easier than people think"

So... yeah you are right, not so straightforward.

Here is my compromise:

The car is a the following:

2016 BMW X5 Xdrive35i 
Alpine White / Black Dakota Leather
M Sport model
MSRP between 70k and 71K
Current Mileage is 3,95x
Car currently in southern california
Visually, car is perfect, no scratches, marks, blemishes etc.

If some bimmerfest member finds a car matching this criteria with a great deal, and wants to buy it, they can PM me to check the VIN to see if it was our old car, I am totally open to that... but I am not going to post the vin here as I feel it somewhat goes against the spirit of my exchange with BMW.

Hope people think that is fair.

(GREAT question ard!)


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## tanyahoang (Nov 1, 2017)

*BuyBack Obligations*

After you get the check from the dealership, are you obligated to buying a BMW or can you simply buy anything?

I bought a lemon and BMWNA are in the process of repurchasing my lemon. I have lost faith in BMWs

Thanks in advance


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

tanyahoang said:


> After you get the check from the dealership, are you obligated to buying a BMW or can you simply buy anything?
> 
> I bought a lemon and BMWNA are in the process of repurchasing my lemon. I have lost faith in BMWs
> 
> Thanks in advance


Welcome to Bimmerfest, tanyahoang! Based on lemon laws in all U.S. states, you are not obligated to buy anything BMW related with the proceeds of your vehicle repurchase settlement, whether it's a car, motorcycle, accessories, or shares in BMW AG. 

Spend or invest the money in any way you please. Best wishes!


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