# Is This Forum Dead?



## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

No posts since 11/07/19


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## Trinitony (Feb 10, 2010)

It's definitely struggling. Has the year-old +/- BMW ED pricing structure deliberately removed the incentive we enjoyed or is it our new government's much hyped economy that is making it unattractive?


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## Jason66 (Apr 1, 2008)

It is a little sad to see. With Jon's return and mention that BMW NA may be looking at ways to add back some incentives (not holding my breath ), there's a glimmer of hope of seeing some activity like the old days.

Might be too little too late, but merging The Travel Forum back into the main ED forum would help. Trip planning was always a highlight of the forum, but moving those discussions away diluted some of the value.

I've been away for awhile, but hoping to be more active now with an ED trip next spring -- even with an "ED premium" cost to buy the car.

Jason


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## akthorp (Jun 16, 2012)

Yes, it’s dead. I know ED numbers are down but I get the impression this board is down much more than the ED program itself. I just did an ED in September and there were other Americans there that day. I previously enjoyed posting trip reports but I couldn’t be bothered this time. I just felt that no one would read it.


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## dandanio (Jun 20, 2008)

I think BMW lost its appeal to people, both in the cars they offer (BMW's best selling cars are its SUVs, not available for ED) as well as in the financing side (2for 1 with Lufthansa?, special financing? extra lease payments?). I am not holding my breath either, but I will be an EDer for life!


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## BickUW89 (Apr 18, 2008)

akthorp said:


> I just felt that no one would read it.


It's up to us to keep it alive. It's not too late; post a report!!

My trip report from this July has >3,700 reads (https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1337087), which is actually more than my previous last trip reports in 2016 and 2011, and I got questions from some newbs about details of the process and experience.


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

dandanio said:


> I think BMW lost its appeal to people, both in the cars they offer (BMW's best selling cars are its SUVs, not available for ED) as well as in the financing side (2for 1 with Lufthansa?, special financing? extra lease payments?). I am not holding my breath either, but I will be an EDer for life!


There are certainly multiple, complex factors involved, but you're right about the decline in popularity of the models that BMW offers for ED. Once upon a time, when there was a new 3-series, I'd quickly see brand new ones all over the S.F. Bay Area. By contrast, I've only seen a handful of the new 3 in "the wild." Why? Many/most of the 3 series buyers have either switched to SUVs/crossovers OR if they're still with sedans are driving the Tesla Model 3. BMW's i4 can't come soon enough and it better be good, since the Model 3 is just killing that premium small sedan segment... at least where I live.


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## BMW4Lee (Aug 17, 2007)

I did my ED back on 11/2/2007 and the Welt had only been open for about a week. I remember seeing my car for the first time from the top of the stairs at the premium lounge. Not only did I get an amazing deal thanks to this board, but it was the trip of a lifetime for me. I would love to go back. I hear that the ED pricing structure has changed -- what is it like now?


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

This used to be my forum as evidenced by my 7600 posts I have here compared to the ~1200 over at the other place. But there seems to be so much more traffic over there that if I'm going to ask a question I'd ask it there. Always loved this as an ED forum and would become super active on here some months before and after my ED while trying to plan it.


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## akthorp (Jun 16, 2012)

Snareman said:


> This used to be my forum as evidenced by my 7600 posts I have here compared to the ~1200 over at the other place. But there seems to be so much more traffic over there that if I'm going to ask a question I'd ask it there. Always loved this as an ED forum and would become super active on here some months before and after my ED while trying to plan it.


At the risk of putting another nail in the coffin, what is the other place you speak of?


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

akthorp said:


> At the risk of putting another nail in the coffin, what is the other place you speak of?


Bimmerpost


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## Shon528 (Oct 3, 2003)

I too keep checking back here to look for more activity. Even though it will cost me ~$65 more per month, I'm placed an order for an M340i for ED in April. Just waiting for the thumbs up from BMW and my order #.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

US incentives have been so much better than ED for a long while, say, since 2012, at least for 3-series(and probably 5-series too). The other poster's point of no SUV ED is also valid.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Hey Gang,

I am here to answer questions and offer my services for Bimmerfest Members who still wish to take European Delivery.

True, the "incentive" to do so has faded a bit, but I personally have watched/read/observed/participated in literally hundreds no THOUSANDS of BMW European Deliveries over the years, and I happen to believe that there was more to the success of the program than saving a little money when buying a new BMW. 

...Just my $02..


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

Jon Shafer said:


> Hey Gang,
> 
> I am here to answer questions and offer my services for Bimmerfest Members who still wish to take European Delivery.
> 
> ...


My €.02 as a past ED customer and two-decade observer of the situation...

There are multiple factors at play... but here are the main ones...

1.Yes, the ED pricing structure changed (I believe with the 2016 model year). The discount was reduced. Absolutely, there was more to the success of the program than the discount, but it was a factor. ED is a great experience, but unless you're going to be in Munich anyway for some reason, it's a long way to go just to do ED. In terms of justifying the trip to budgets, spouses, etc., the fact that you could say, "Yes, we're splurging on this car/vacation... but we saved $xxxx compared to if we just bought a car off the lot" If $xxxx is smaller than it was, that does affect things.

2. The decline of mom-and-pop BMW dealers and the growth of mega-dealer chains like AutoNation and Penske. ED was an area where the small, family-owned dealers really seemed to shine. They could do ED orders beyond allotments, and with an ED specialist on staff, they could really build up a niche business. For the mega-dealers, the whole thing is so inconsequential to the bottom line, that there's not a lot of effort. I have a theory that the big dealer groups pushed to reduce the discount, as there's anecdotal claims of annoyance that customers were doing ED not with their local mega-dealer but with the small ED specialist dealers. Kill the discount, and there's less ability for the mom-and-pops to compete.

3. Product mix. The bread-and-butter 3/4 series is still popular but not like it was. As I said up the thread, I used to see countless new 3s around the Bay Area whenever there was a brand new model. I'm not seeing that anymore. Tesla's Model 3 is killing that segment where I live. And, of course, there's been an overall trend toward SUVs & crossovers that doesn't favor BMW's German-produced offerings.


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## CarSwami (Oct 2, 2005)

Jon Shafer said:


> Hey Gang,
> 
> I am here to answer questions and offer my services for Bimmerfest Members who still wish to take European Delivery.
> 
> ...


Jon, you are quite right. When I did an ED in 2007 to buy my 335i convertible, I did not do it for the incentives. I did it because it gave my Mom, my two sisters and me a chance to have a vacation of a lifetime without spouses and kids. We really bonded on that trip and regained the closeness that we had when we were growing up. I did not save any $$ on that trip since I had to pay for airfare and I picked up all our hotel costs. But it was a trip that we still talk about so many years later and I don't regret it one bit. Although my Mom is sadly no longer with us, I know that when the time comes for me to replace my 335i, I will definitely look at doing another ED. My sisters are on board too! 

CarSwami


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## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

you can't read out of me. I am here day and night :rofl:


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

The Gothenburg drop off point for Saab used to have "hundreds" of people turn in cars. By spring 2005, the man accepting cars said that there hadn't been a return for "a couple of days".

I expect to do a European Delivery in a few years. However, I believe it will be more expensive than US delivery even if one doesn't count travel costs.


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## shakes (Mar 15, 2007)

aardvark said:


> My €.02 as a past ED customer and two-decade observer of the situation...
> 
> There are multiple factors at play... but here are the main ones...
> 
> 1.Yes, the ED pricing structure changed (I believe with the 2016 model year). The discount was reduced. Absolutely, there was more to the success of the program than the discount, but it was a factor. ED is a great experience, but unless you're going to be in Munich anyway for some reason, it's a long way to go just to do ED. In terms of justifying the trip to budgets, spouses, etc., the fact that you could say, "Yes, we're splurging on this car/vacation... but we saved $xxxx compared to if we just bought a car off the lot" If $xxxx is smaller than it was, that does affect things.


I agree with this in particular- I had hoped to take my entire family on an ED adventure back in 2017, but the new economics of the program were too much of a hurdle. When the $xxxx of savings became extra expense, the program no longer made sense for me. I would say that the several EDs I was able to do were very enjoyable and I thank Jon and all of the members of this forum for some great memories.

I hold out hope that one day the program will return to its past glory and popularity. Only BMW can decide to make that happen.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

MB330 said:


> you can't read out of me. I am here day and night :rofl:


What great memories!! Thanks for posting!

I have a feeling that we can truly revitalize this forum. It has been brought to my attention that many oldtimers are still frequenting the site, choosing mostly to lurk.

Posting begets more posting, and European Delivery season is right around the corner.

:thumbup:


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## pawarrant (Jun 15, 2006)

I sure hope not. This forum is the best resource for ED.


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## jhm5 (Jan 8, 2016)

I wonder what the Euro delivery numbers are now versus several years ago? One key factor in less interest in Euro Deliveries is that more than half of BMW's US sales are X models, primarily made in South Carolina. Therefore, the number of potential Euro Delivery customers logically is down. I did a Euro Delivery in '17, 2018 440i, not for cost savings but for adventure, and participated in the forum frequently around that time. I lurk sometimes and answer a question now and then, though things may have changed in two years. When I did a Euro Delivery in '84, not surprisingly, there was no forum. One had to depend on word of mouth and the occasional feature in the Roundel.
John
CCA #6428


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

I have completed 6 BMW Euro Deliveries and they were great fun. They were also a great way to get an awesome deal that was actually better than standard ordering. It was also great for BMW brand loyalty. With BMW's moves to reduce the financial benefits of BMW Euro Delivery, they effectively greatly reduced interest and demand. I believe it be rather stupid on their part. For Euro Delivery I leased 4 BMWs from my local dealership. Plus I referred at least 20 people to them for BMW Euro Delivery that resulted in sales. With diminished BMW Euro Delivery I and my referrals went away. When my lease is up on my current US Delivery 2017 BMW 540ix, I will likely go to another German brand. I just don't feely jay connection to BMW like I used to.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

pharding said:


> I have completed 6 BMW Euro Deliveries and they were great fun. They were also a great way to get an awesome deal that was actually better than standard ordering. It was also great for BMW brand loyalty. With BMW's moves to reduce the financial benefits of BMW Euro Delivery, they effectively greatly reduced interest and demand. I believe it be rather stupid on their part. For Euro Delivery I leased 4 BMWs from my local dealership. Plus I referred at least 20 people to them for BMW Euro Delivery that resulted in sales. With diminished BMW Euro Delivery I and my referrals went away. When my lease is up on my current US Delivery 2017 BMW 540ix, I will likely go to another German brand. I just don't feely jay connection to BMW like I used to.


+1

You are the ideal/prototypical BMW Owner. I was just thinking about you and your son as a matter of fact..

:angel:

What do you suppose it would take to rekindle the passion for ED (besides the obvious)??

:dunno:


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## mconley3 (Jun 24, 2015)

Did my first ED in 2016. Got a lot of fantastic information here. Still check this forum every couple of days. Hoping to do another ED in a couple years, no other way I will ever buy a car.


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## shakes (Mar 15, 2007)

pharding. When my lease is up on my current US Delivery 2017 BMW 540ix said:


> I hate to admit the same- my wife and I just bought an Audi and when my lease is up in April I am going to look around at other options to replace my bimmer. My current lease is my 9th BMW but i definitely don't feel the connection to the brand that I used to during my ED days.


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

pharding said:


> When my lease is up on my current US Delivery 2017 BMW 540ix, I will likely go to another German brand. I just don't feely jay connection to BMW like I used to.


I'm kinda in the same boat, though I do love this forum. A number of the decisions BMW has made of late didn't sit well with me.

I'm probably in the market for a car next year and contemplating an RS-6, though I'm hoping to hold off till I see what BMW does on the LCI for the new ///M


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

I was thinking of a new 3 series (G20) but since it only comes with an automatic, I will keep my F30 longer than originally planned. That F30 will likely be my last manual transmission car ever. I will likely keep it until around the time the G20 is replaced.


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## Nightdriver (Mar 6, 2009)

I did an ED for my 530e last year and really enjoyed it. Drove the car to Romania and back. Of course I got to let it loose on the no-limit autobahn coming back into Munich. I would definitely do it again unless the program is completely scrapped.

However, my SA here in Dallas was new to the program and gave me the US incentives on top of the ED. Her manager didn't notice until much later and asked it I would mind voluntarily surrendering those extra dollars! HA!! However, even with the decline in the discount, with ED we get the tours, 2 weeks of our own car rent-free, 2 weeks of insurance, and the discounts. Still a nice plan if you intend to visit western Europe. My brother did the Volvo ED version and they've cut back more than BMW. I've heard from friends that Mercedes is also backing off on its ED offers.


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## 808dakine (Jul 21, 2016)

Nightdriver said:


> I did an ED for my 530e last year and really enjoyed it. Drove the car to Romania and back. Of course I got to let it loose on the no-limit autobahn coming back into Munich. I would definitely do it again unless the program is completely scrapped.
> 
> However, my SA here in Dallas was new to the program and gave me the US incentives on top of the ED. Her manager didn't notice until much later and asked it I would mind voluntarily surrendering those extra dollars! HA!! However, even with the decline in the discount, with ED we get the tours, 2 weeks of our own car rent-free, 2 weeks of insurance, and the discounts. Still a nice plan if you intend to visit western Europe. My brother did the Volvo ED version and they've cut back more than BMW. I've heard from friends that Mercedes is also backing off on its ED offers.


Did the Volvo OSD on a 2019MY XC40, BMW's ED equivalent and they paid for upgraded air from Hawaii, dinner and lodging at a first class hotel in Goteburg, prestige transportation service from airport to hotel, hotel to factory delivery site, return to hotel after returning the car 2 weeks later, and transportation to the airport for the paid trip home. Factory tour and museum visits included as well as a sit-down lunch at the FDC. All of this for over 20% less than my local dealer wanted for the same car versus the 5% from BMW. Incidentally, the local dealer said it would be 6-8 months before I'd even see the car. Through the OSD, we were driving it back home in 4 months with great memories of driving around Denmark, Sweden, and Norway and the Pacific Northwest.

That said, I'd still likely do another ED, and definitely another OSD when the full electric version hits the street. Pays to check the competition and be open to different brands.


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## Ucla95 (Jul 23, 2004)

My view - the reduction of discount & concurrent increase in US incentives has had a major effect, no matter how much people like to travel to Germany - it was a big factor for many that you knew you were getting a better deal than in the US. And I think it created more velocity, you could buy a car, own it for a year or two and sell it without taking too much of a depreciation hit and do it all over again. Plus the other forum has a much more dynamic front page which generates traffic. Finally some of the people who were huge brand ambassadors like jspira and beewang appear to be gone unfortunately.


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## pawarrant (Jun 15, 2006)

Jon Shafer said:


> What do you suppose it would take to rekindle the passion for ED (besides the obvious)??


I really think BMW does an amazing job with the process of ED. It is top notch. I would imagine people that do ED are almost always going to be multiple repeat customers. I never looked at it as a a money saver, but with the past discounts it pretty much paid for your trip so it was a wash and you got a great experience out of it and BMW gained a loyal customer. Now it actually costs you more money so it discourages people and hurts loyalty.


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## Santorini Blue (Apr 7, 2014)

BMW enthusiasts are the ones who do European delivery. Fewer these days.


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## 808dakine (Jul 21, 2016)

pawarrant said:


> I really think BMW does an amazing job with the process of ED. It is top notch. I would imagine people that do ED are almost always going to be multiple repeat customers. I never looked at it as a a money saver, but with the past discounts it pretty much paid for your trip so it was a wash and you got a great experience out of it and BMW gained a loyal customer. Now it actually costs you more money so it discourages people and hurts loyalty.


hear-hear!


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## Ucla95 (Jul 23, 2004)

To restimulate ED they simply need to allow customers to apply US incentives (loyalty, UDE, cash back) on ED's. 2nd step - allow ED to have its own allocation of the M models, so enthusiasts who order early (say when the new M3 comes out) can get a car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation.


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## BSquared (Aug 26, 2018)

With the big shift in popularity from sedans to SUV/SAV, BMW should be offering a USAD for Europeans to pick up their rides in SC


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Ucla95 said:


> To restimulate ED they simply need to allow customers to apply US incentives (loyalty, UDE, cash back) on ED's. 2nd step - allow ED to have its own allocation of the M models, so enthusiasts who order early (say when the new M3 comes out) can get a car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation.


:angel:

I could not agree more..

:thumbup:


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## VIZSLA (Mar 16, 2007)

Between the Ho-hum current product mix, BMW***8217;s disincentifications and lack of dealer enthusiasm, I have little reason to do a third ED.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Ucla95 said:


> To restimulate ED they simply need to allow customers to apply US incentives (loyalty, UDE, cash back) on ED's. 2nd step - allow ED to have its own allocation of the M models, so enthusiasts who order early (say when the new M3 comes out) can get a car that doesn't come out of dealer allocation.


Excellent suggestions.

In my particular case, I add Individual options to my ED which raises the price to match the non-ED cost of getting the car at a crappy dealer. It helps BMW, helps Individual, helps the German economy, helps me. Then I top all that with a European vacation.

It seems to me that dealers, not BMWUSA, want to kill ED for quite some time. Lazy crappers that don't know even their own product in most cases. Sometimes buying a Kia at half the price with more warranty is more satisfying than buying a 330i at a BMW dealer. We have been spoiled in Bimmerfest with the fantasy that all salespersons are Jon when reality tells us time and time again that they are just average people selling a car from a lot. There is no Welt gusto in the US delivery; the closest is a Performance Delivery. And even that is not encouraged by dealers.

I will continue to do ED as long as the level of service is kept, and have the time for a vacation. Pricing may affect my decision, but then mediocre sales service levels that off.


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

Technic said:


> Excellent suggestions.
> 
> In my particular case, I add Individual options to my ED which raises the price to match the non-ED cost of getting the car at a crappy dealer. It helps BMW, helps Individual, helps the German economy, helps me. Then I top all that with a European vacation.
> 
> ...


I liked European Delivery because my car was made across the street from the Welt. For most BMW's, the Welt is just a delivery center far removed from the factory. That is what the US located Performance Center is. However, some day, I might opt to buy a Performance Center delivery only then drive across the US to see the sights that I would not make a special trip to see. For example....

BMW South Carolina factory
Montgomery Alabama Southern Poverty Law Center black granite memorial designed by Maya Lin
Huntsville Alabama NASA rockets
Airplane museum near Midland, Texas
Santa Fe, NM
Mesa Verde
Grand Canyon
Edwards AFB museum if opened to the public
Yosemite
stop by San Francisco


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