# Calculating BMW invoice pricing for MY 2017 models



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

Staring with model year (MY) 2017 BMW is changing how invoice pricing and dealer compensation works. This has changed the calculations for US invoice pricing and European Delivery pricing, the new calculations are below. Read on to find out why or just jump down to do the calculations. Use our 2017 BMW pricing and ordering guides for MSRP pricing.

*Back story on why BMW invoice pricing is changing*
Last year BMW NA CEO Ludwig Willisch announced that changes that were coming for dealer compensation. His new plan is intended to move BMW from the bottom of the pile in customer satisfaction rating, especially around service. Under the new plan dealerships can earn up to a 1 percent bonus based on 4 criteria. This was BMW NA's way of providing incentives to dealerships to provided a better customer experience and customer loyalty. That 1 percent has to come from somewhere and we now know it is coming out of the invoice price of the car.

For MY 2016 and prior years the difference in price between MSRP and invoice was 8 percent for the vehicle and 9 percent for options and packages. Staring in MY 2017 the discount between MSRP and invoice is 7 percent for the vehicle and options and packages being 8 percent. In effect BMW has taken 1 percent out of the front end of the deal putting it in the back end of the deal as a carrot for dealerships to chase.

This means we will see deals closer to invoice pricing as dealerships push for volume to hit the back end sales targets. BMW has also increased the holdback (more back end money) from 5 percent of vehicle base cost to 5 percent of the sticker price, giving dealership more room to deal on highly optioned vehicles. What happens in the real market is yet to be seen. As 2017s start hitting the show room stay tuned to find out what Bimmerfest members are getting for deals.

*BMW US Invoice Pricing calculation*
Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets) multiplied by 0.93
+ MACO fee $500.00 (flat rate applied to all dealers)
= Base vehicle US BMW invoice price

To figure the invoice price of your BMW as configured add -
+ Option and packages (anything you can add to the vehicle) multiplied by 0.92
+ Training fee of $180.00
+ Destination and handling charge - Currently $995 
= Total vehicle invoice price +/- $10.00

*BMW European Delivery Invoice Pricing calculation*
Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets below) multiplied by 0.95 gives you the base vehicle European Delivery price. For those wondering, BMW has redueced the (ED discount from 7% to 5% starting in 2016).

Multiple the base vehicle European Delivery pricing by 0.93 
+ $475 fee (this started in 2016 and applies to all dealers)
= Base vehicle European Delivery invoice price

To figure the European Delivery invoice price of your BMW as configured add -
+ Option and packages (anything you can add to the vehicle) multiplied by 0.92
+ Destination and handling charge - Currently $995
= Total vehicle invoice price +/- $10.00

Big thanks to Bimmerfest member Ninong and others for helping to get this figured out.


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## Vitacura (Jul 22, 2005)

Great info, thanks! :thumbup:


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

Man, BMW is really resetting all the pricing to maximize profits. Such a shame. Hopefully this doesn't continue their slide in sales of 3 series.


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## ctorrey (Mar 17, 2007)

I feel like this will result in 'invoice + $0' deals being offered. That's where I'd start for a new 3 series. Need to recover that 1% for sure!


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Not sure ED deals will save buyers enough money to justify the cost of the trip. However if you want to go to Europe AND you want to buy a new BMW then it does make sense.


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## Stevarino (May 14, 2002)

*Pm*



rmorin49 said:


> Not sure ED deals will save buyers enough money to justify the cost of the trip. However if you want to go to Europe AND you want to buy a new BMW then it does make sense.


(Sent you a PM a few days ago.)


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## pdx325i (Feb 26, 2002)

I don't understand why buyers are complaining. BMW is making the dealers work harder to earn that 1%, and the customers will get better service experience at the same price. Yes, the invoice price goes up, but the purchase price will relatively stay the same (closer to invoice, hence invoice + $0).

As a customer, I like it.


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

Change is scary. Also what you're saying is possible but doesn't mean it will happen. Dealer principals could cut back on deals to make up the 1% and BMW has already said that not all dealerships will get the 1% back end money.

Could be good, could be bad. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the next few months.

Tim


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

Another reminder of what a great resource Bimmerfest is!

:thumbup:


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## beware_phog (Mar 7, 2003)

rmorin49 said:


> Not sure ED deals will save buyers enough money to justify the cost of the trip. However if you want to go to Europe AND you want to buy a new BMW then it does make sense.


Saving money is only a small reason. The opportunity to see all that Europe and BMW has to offer in your own car is amazing.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

tim330i said:


> Change is scary. Also what you're saying is possible but doesn't mean it will happen. Dealer principals could cut back on deals to make up the 1% and BMW has already said that not all dealerships will get the 1% back end money.
> 
> Could be good, could be bad. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the next few months.
> 
> Tim


It is unlikely dealers will share the 1% loyalty bonus as it is not guaranteed, just like dealers do not share CSI-based 5% AVP.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> It is unlikely dealers will share the 1% loyalty bonus as it is not guaranteed, just like dealers do not share CSI-based 5% AVP.


If you change that to "it is likely that most dealers will not share the bonus" I think you are right. This has the real potential of creating even more of a "haves" and "have nots" among dealers imo. Dealers who perform well under the new guidelines will be able to get to a place price wise that other dealers simply will not be able to touch.

Will they go there for everyone? of course not... but they will be able to go there for certain deals, and you can be sure that these dealers will be trumpetting their "center of excellence" or whatever it will be called to allow them to be noticed by those "in the know".

From what has been posted, that is the model BMW is going for... high performing (with "performance" defined by BMWs criteria), will be able to stand head and shoulders above other dealers.. and drive even more business if they want to.

I agree with Tim, that we dont know what will happen. If I had to guess, I would think that on the "bread and butter" models like 3/5 (and in the US the X models), those dealers will really be aggressive on certain deals to make sure they hit their numbers.

On more Niche products, the prices will likely elevate higher, and stay there, as the high performing dealer will have less incentive / competition to lower it.

Just my opinions of course, not backed up by anything (disclaimer before people ask me for facts / figures).


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> If you change that to "it is likely that most dealers will not share the bonus" I think you are right. This has the real potential of creating even more of a "haves" and "have nots" among dealers imo. Dealers who perform well under the new guidelines will be able to get to a place price wise that other dealers simply will not be able to touch.
> 
> Will they go there for everyone? of course not... but they will be able to go there for certain deals, and you can be sure that these dealers will be trumpetting their "center of excellence" or whatever it will be called to allow them to be noticed by those "in the know".
> 
> ...


Past experience with the local "centers of excellence" was that their pricing was not that good. They probably had superb CSI scores both from sales and service sides to get the coveted titles, but the 5% AVP was off limit, as to them that's the payouts to the SAs/CAs.

The local dealers that provide the best prices are the volume leaders, they do "share" their monthly/quarterly/year sales bonuses provided your deal is among the ones that make the quotas. The volume leaders do not tend to strive for CSI scores(and probably not fully eligible for 5% AVP), but my guess is their quota bonuses are quite healthy. Usual disclaimer applies.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> If you change that to "it is likely that most dealers will not share the bonus" I think you are right. This has the real potential of creating even more of a "haves" and "have nots" among dealers imo. Dealers who perform well under the new guidelines will be able to get to a place price wise that other dealers simply will not be able to touch.


Is it confirmed this new loyalty bonus will replace 5% AVP for MY17 and on?

If the 1% price hike is collected from all cars sold, it seems each of the dealer in top 20% will get 5% of loyalty bonus, assuming the loyalty bonus pool is evenly distributed among top 20%. 

This is a significant price increase to the dealer, namely, the margin between MSRP and invoice is cut by 1%, plus there is no more 5% AVP, but a 20% chance(based on performance metrics) to get the new 5% loyalty bonus.

Another improvement observation is, *BMWNA can get 5% savings from eliminating AVP*. If so hopefully BMWNA will "share" that savings by lowering MSRPs, e.g. MY17 340i has M sport package as standard for $2k extra base MSRP.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> Is it confirmed this new loyalty bonus will replace 5% AVP for MY17 and on?
> 
> If the 1% price hike is collected from all cars sold, it seems each of the dealer in top 20% will get 5% of loyalty bonus, assuming the loyalty bonus pool is evenly distributed among top 20%.
> 
> ...


I have no clue on the AVP (but i am guessing that your question was not really pointed at me, but just asked out loud).


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

jjrandorin said:


> I have no clue on the AVP (but i am guessing that your question was not really pointed at me, but just asked out loud).





namelessman said:


> Is it confirmed this new loyalty bonus will replace 5% AVP for MY17 and on?
> 
> If the 1% price hike is collected from all cars sold, it seems each of the dealer in top 20% will get 5% of loyalty bonus, assuming the loyalty bonus pool is evenly distributed among top 20%.
> 
> ...


Let me take a crack at answering your questions based solely on what was said publicly by Ludwig Willisch, President of BMWNA, at the Detroit Auto Show in January of this year. According to Automotive News, Willisch said that "BMW will cut its free scheduled maintenance to 3 years/36,000 miles and use the savings to pay for a new dealer bonus."

If that part about using the savings to pay for the new dealer bonus is true, then it's just a coincidence that BMW just happened to take 1% out of the spread between MSRP and wholesale on all new 2017 models by changing the 92% to 93% and the 91% to 92%. My _theory_ last night when I was trying to figure out what they had done to the prices for the new 2017 models was that the 1% change was being done to cover the new 1% dealer bonus. Maybe my assumption was incorrect. Maybe it really is coming from the savings from the reduced free maintenance? Not that it matters because I did figure out exactly what changes they had made without any confirmation from any BMW dealership employee, since I realize why they must all remain silent on such matters. In fact, I haven't even bothered to ask anyone that question directly.

Willisch also spoke at the Automotive News World Congress in January and his comments from both appearances are being quoted mixed together in some articles. Let's hope that they quoted him accurately. You can pick this stuff up using Google.

One article quotes him as saying that *the new 1% bonus was started in April 2016. Dealers who meet (1) BMW's brand standard, (2) customer satisfaction, (3) sales targets, and (4) hire Genius product specialists... will be paid a monthly bonus of 1% of the sticker price of new vehicles sold.* That was said at the Detroit Auto Show.

Other highlights of the new program include changes to the dealer holdback on new vehicles sold. *Starting with the 2017 model year, BMW's holdback will be 5% of the vehicle's full sticker price. Previously BMW's holdback was 5% of the vehicles base sticker price.*

BMW also will let dealers transfer free scheduled maintenance to a new owner, which is now prohibited.

BMW dealers averaged a 2.6 percent return on sales last year. Such a return puts BMW dealers among the most profitable in the industry, Willisch said.

Unfortunately, in a 2015 J.D. Power U.S. Customer Service Survey Index Study BMW was ranked 8th of 12 luxury brands. Willisch is not at all satisfied with that and wants to see it rasied and that's why he's making the changes he announced.

BMW will measure how many buyers repurchase or lease another of its vehicles because "what counts is loyalty," Willisch said. BMW has been working with its National Dealer Forum on these changes for about three years, according to Willisch. Not all dealers will qualify for the new 1% bonus, he said.

So that's about it. That's what has already been announced publicly by the President of BMWNA. It looks like the previous 5% AVP not only stays but it gets increased by being a percentage of full Monroney, including options, plus the addition of a potential 1% extra bonus based on meeting the four criteria mentioned above. I have been told that each of those four items counts for 0.25%.

I don't know how they intend to measure owner loyalty compared to how the old CSI metric worked. In particular, it would be interesting to know what Willisch meant by "how many buyers repurchase or lease another of its vehicles." One friend of mine thinks it means how many of your customers your dealership holds on to, but he's not positive. That would be a lot different from the traditional meaning of brand loyalty, which usually means how many BMW owners stick with BMW for their next car no matter where they buy it.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tim330i said:


> Change is scary.
> 
> Could be good, could be bad. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the next few months.
> 
> Tim


Tim,

I know you linked to the Automotive News article at the time because I remember telling you I wished you wouldn't do that because I didn't like the opening paragraph saying that it would be the changes from the free maintenance program that would be used to pay for the new 1% dealer bonus and the fact that they claimed BMW dealers told them their customers didn't really need that much free maintenance since most of them trade cars every three years anyway. Maybe that's true, I don't know, but I remember not liking the tone of the article.

Anyway, I sort of summarized it in my post above this one because people have a tendency to forget something you posted months ago and it helps to refresh their memories to just spell out the important points once more. 

Some client advisors don't like explaining things like this to Bimmerfest members but I tend to agree with Greg Poland that a thoroughly informed customer is easier to deal with than an uninformed customer. I'm sure everyone understands that a dealer has to make a profit to remain in business. I know their opinion of what constitutes a reasonable profit is way, way too low but that's what the client advisor gets paid to do... convince them that the deal he is offering them is a fair deal. We have lots and lots of threads on the board from customers who wish they had followed the simply advice from almost 2,000 years ago: _caveat emptor_. And, "you get what you paid for."


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Let me take a crack at answering your questions based solely on what was said publicly by Ludwig Willisch, President of BMWNA, at the Detroit Auto Show in January of this year. According to Automotive News, Willisch said that "BMW will cut its free scheduled maintenance to 3 years/36,000 miles and use the savings to pay for a new dealer bonus."
> 
> If that part about using the savings to pay for the new dealer bonus is true, then it's just a coincidence that BMW just happened to take 1% out of the spread between MSRP and wholesale on all new 2017 models by changing the 92% to 93% and the 91% to 92%. My _theory_ last night when I was trying to figure out what they had done to the prices for the new 2017 models was that the 1% change was being done to cover the new 1% dealer bonus. Maybe my assumption was incorrect. Maybe it really is coming from the savings from the reduced free maintenance? Not that it matters because I did figure out exactly what changes they had made without any confirmation from any BMW dealership employee, since I realize why they must all remain silent on such matters. In fact, I haven't even bothered to ask anyone that question directly.
> 
> ...


If the new 5% holdback is not conditional(e.g. not tied to CSI like the outgoing 5% AVP) that will be more significant than the new conditional 1% loyalty bonus. Is this any link/reference to confirm the new 5% unconditional holdback will replace the CSI-based 5% AVP? If this is confirmed, then customers should expect to share some/all of this guaranteed 5% holdback. 

Also it is interesting that the performance-metrics based loyalty bonus is 1%. So BMWNA collects 1% from every car sold, but only distributes 1% loyalty bonus to top 20% dealers, and keeps the remaining 80% to pad its profits? :dunno:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> If the new 5% holdback is not conditional(e.g. not tied to CSI like the outgoing 5% AVP) that will be more significant than the new conditional 1% loyalty bonus. Is this any link/reference to confirm the new 5% unconditional holdback will replace the CSI-based 5% AVP? If this is confirmed, then customers should expect to share some/all of this guaranteed 5% holdback.


I assume that there were no changes to the AVP other than basing it on the total MSRP of the car instead of just the base model MSRP. I think we should assume that it did NOT change and the requirements are the same as before.



> Also it is interesting that the performance-metrics based loyalty bonus is 1%. So BMWNA collects 1% from every car sold, but only distributes 1% loyalty bonus to top 20% dealers, and keeps the remaining 80% to pad its profits? :dunno:


Read it again. Maybe only 20% of dealers will qualify for the full 1% by meeting all four individual requirements but each of those requirements counts for 0.25%, so a dealer might qualify for three of them and receive 0.75%, just not the full 1%.

Customers can "*expect* to share" whatever their little hearts desire. That doesn't mean the dealership will agree with them.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> I assume that there were *no changes to the AVP other than basing it on the total MSRP *of the car instead of just the base model MSRP. I think we should assume that it did NOT change and the requirements are the same as before.
> 
> *Read it again*. Maybe only 20% of dealers will qualify for the full 1% by meeting all four individual requirements but each of those requirements counts for 0.25%, so a dealer might qualify for three of them and receive 0.75%, just not the full 1%.
> 
> Customers can "*expect* to share" whatever their little hearts desire. That doesn't mean the dealership will agree with them.


Your previous posts said CSI-based AVP will be replaced, but your latest post says CSI-based AVP remains, so which is correct? Please clarify.

On the loyalty bonus, if 20% gets 1%, while the remaining 80% gets less than 1%, the total is still less than 1% that BMWNA gets from all cars sold. So BMWNA does get some extra margin from this new 1% price increase.

From another angle, if the reduced free maintenance can pay for this performance-based 1% loyalty bonus, it will imply that extra year plus brakes + clutches + wipers do not cost BMWNA that much(less than 1% of MSRP).


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Thanks, I will check it out to see what it says.


Check this out, this AVP guide is dated 2012 but quite informative. It will be great if the latest 2016/2017 one can be posted here too. 

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=361290&d=1360287625


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Check this out, this AVP guide is dated 2012 but quite informative. It will be great if the latest 2016/2017 one can be posted here too.
> 
> https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=361290&d=1360287625


The most important thing I learned from that was that the entire 5% was combined and made contingent on meeting the requirements established by BMW and that included the original 2% holdback that was established in the stone ages, long before BMW came to these shores. As I previously explained, that had never been subject to any requirements when it was first established and was still untouchable even after they added 1% tied to CSI. At some point after that they added an additional 2%.

Almost all of the requirements in that program are more or less standard in the industry as far as the manufacturer establishing annual training requirements and insisting on having their dealers properly represent the brand and comply with advertising guidelines.

Getting back to questions about the most recent 1% bonus announced back in January of this year by Ludwig Willisch as going into effect in April, I did ask someone about that and was told that each of those four announced requirements would count for one-fourth of the 1% bonus. I didn't specifically ask about the 5% because he had already told me "they increased it to 5% and changed the name to AVP."


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> The most important thing I learned from that was that the entire 5% was combined and made contingent on meeting the requirements established by BMW and that included the original 2% holdback that was established in the stone ages, long before BMW came to these shores. As I previously explained, that had never been subject to any requirements when it was first established and was still untouchable even after they added 1% tied to CSI. At some point after that they added an additional 2%.
> 
> Almost all of the requirements in that program are more or less standard in the industry as far as the manufacturer establishing annual training requirements and insisting on having their dealers properly represent the brand and comply with advertising guidelines.
> 
> Getting back to questions about the most recent 1% bonus announced back in January of this year by Ludwig Willisch as going into effect in April, I did ask someone about that and was told that each of those four announced requirements would count for one-fourth of the 1% bonus. I didn't specifically ask about the 5% because he had already told me "they increased it to 5% and changed the name to AVP."


As the BMW document shows the CSI is 50% of AVP. If your statement of CSI being replaced by customer loyalty is true then it will be a big shift.

And your comment of the requirements of AVP more or less industry standard is true, as there are previous forum posts suggesting the CSI part of AVP was borrowed from Lexus(by a Lexus NA exec joining BMWNA?) If Audi can climb to the top of CSI list(together with Lexus Cadillac as top 3), BMW should be able to improve its CSI, rather than giving up on it.

As a side note BMW's 2016 score is 844, while Audi is 874, so even though BMW is among the bottom 3 of luxury brands, it is not too far off from Audi. So maybe BMWNA thinks BMW's CSI is good enough, and refocus on volume and loyalty going forward. :dunno:

And to give a perspective of the score, online article describes that a repair not done right the first try drops the score by 200 points to 600-ish.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> As the BMW document shows the CSI is 50% of AVP. If your statement of CSI being replaced by customer loyalty is true then it will be a big shift.
> 
> And your comment of the requirements of AVP more or less industry standard is true, as there are previous forum posts suggesting the CSI part of AVP was borrowed from Lexus(by a Lexus NA exec joining BMWNA?) If Audi can climb to the top of CSI list(together with Lexus Cadillac as top 3), BMW should be able to improve its CSI, rather than giving up on it.
> 
> ...


Only the dealers know exactly how the program is changing because they're the ones who receive the memos detailing things like that. The rest of us are just reading what has been written about those changes based on public statements by BMW executives, like BMWNA President Ludwig Willisch. He has been quoted as saying he wanted to replace CSI with owner loyalty but before fully implementing that change he wanted to measure owner loyalty as shown by current BMW owners who stick with the brand for their next purchase.

It is quite possible that the entire 5% will not be replaced by the new standard, so even though he was quoting as saying he wanted to replace CSI as a measure of customer satisfaction maybe he didn't mean all of the 5%?

He did announce the new 1% bonus and spelled out the four categories that must be met. He said it would start in April of this year. I asked about that and was told that each of the four categories counts for exactly one-fourth of the 1%. I assume that is correct since my friend is in a position to know. To tell you the truth I never even thought to ask him about that last 2% that was added to the previous 3% after I retired because I just assumed it was tied to new requirements but that the original 2%, at least, would have remained untouchable. Obviously that didn't happen and I was amused to read in that lawsuit from 2009 that it was described as a "voluntary" program. The one thing that caught my eye right away in the lawsuit's statement of facts was that they claimed that prior to that 5% AVP "holdback" there was no holdback. There certainly was a 2% holdback by BMWNA when they first opened shop in the 1960's and that was increased with the addition of 1% tied to CSI in either the late '80's or sometime in the '90's, I don't remember exactly when they did that. I just remember that the goal posts kept creeping up.

We like to talk about stuff like this but, as other Bimmerfesters have pointed out, what difference does it make? None, really. We don't need to know what the dealer paid for the car only what he wants us to pay for it. We can do quite well in the negotiations without knowing anything about what he paid and that's because of the way the American auto industry is regulated by our various consumer laws prohibiting price-fixing and requiring full disclosure of the terms of any finance or lease contracts.

We do not have the sort of distribution system South African-native Elon Musk is trying to impose. We have a distribution system based on independent franchised dealers and each dealer has the authority to set the selling price. A "good deal" is a good deal if it's a good deal in the eye of the beholder. If you live in Lubbock or El Paso, then a good deal for you will be the best you can get from your one-and-only local BMW dealer unless you think you can do better driving three or four hours away to the next BMW dealer. That's your leverage, plus the obvious fact that the dealer might think he's losing you to the local competition. For a BMW shopper in a market like that, reading forums like this one could lead them to expecting that their local dealer will match the sort of deals available in L.A. and he won't.

Sometimes that works against the buying public but only because they insist on wanting to be the first to have a new model and production cannot keep up with demand. No one forced anyone to pay $100,000 or even $30,000 over Monroney for a new i8. As I said back then, just wait until the price collapses like it always does. Now you can buy one for thousands below MSRP. That happened when the 1984 Corvette came out and we packed it $5,000 (on a $29,000 MSRP) and with the 850i in the late 1980's when we packed it $10,000 over (some competitors packed it $20,000 but they were stuck with all those cars sitting on their showroom floor). We sold all of our first six or seven months worth of allocation of the Z3 for exactly $2,000 over Monroney before supply finally caught up with demand. Even during that period, we lost maybe three customers who decided they couldn't wait any longer so they bought one for $5,000 over because it was sitting on somebody's showroom floor. Some BMW dealers (like one in Houston) were stuck with 7 i8's sitting on their showroom floor collecting dust with their $100,000 packs still in place when the price suddenly began to collapse.

I'm running on again, oh well...


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## pgold1230 (Dec 17, 2014)

mwm1166 said:


> Man, BMW is really resetting all the pricing to maximize profits. Such a shame. Hopefully this doesn't continue their slide in sales of 3 series.


Very glad I bought a '16 340xi - at invoice. And with an additional year of warranty. Upping the invoice on the car and on options? What is BMW trying to pull here?? I think I know the answer to that, unfortunately.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mwm1166 said:


> Man, BMW is really resetting all the pricing to maximize profits. Such a shame. Hopefully this doesn't continue their slide in sales of 3 series.





Ninong said:


> Customers can "*expect* to share" whatever their little hearts desire. That doesn't mean the dealership will agree with them.





pgold1230 said:


> Very glad I bought a '16 340xi - at invoice. And with an additional year of warranty. Upping the invoice on the car and on options? What is BMW trying to pull here?? I think I know the answer to that, unfortunately.


Honestly, I don't think either one of you know the answer to that and, in fact, I think both of you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. 

Let's look at this from the perspective of history and, in my case, history in the car business goes back more than 50 years. Over that time, all of the manufacturers have been playing around with the markup between the MSRP shown on the Monroney sticker and the so-called dealer invoice price. If we go back 51 years ago to 1965 when I first started, all of the manufacturers had a much, much larger spread between Monroney (MSRP) and dealer invoice. The dealer's invoice price for a full-size luxury sedan, such as a Cadillac, was 24% below the total MSRP shown on the window sticker and, in addition, he received a 2% quarterly holdback bonus. That made the total markup 26%.

When they decided to invent mid-size cars, following the first Arab Oil Embargo, they introduced those with less spread between dealer's invoice and MSRP. I believe it was around 21% originally. Plus the same 2% holdback paid quarterly. There were no strings attached to the holdback. Dealers received it quarterly, regardless. Compacts, when GM introduced them, came out with only 11% spread between dealer's invoice and MSRP. Always plus the traditional 2% holdback.

When BMW ventured over here to the New World in the 1960's, they adopted the same pricing structure as the domestics -- a 2% holdback paid quarterly. I can't tell you what their spread was because I spent my first couple of decades with GM. However, when I did make the move to BMW in the mid-1980's, they were still using the traditional 2% holdback paid quarterly with no strings attached. Their spread at that time was comparable to the domestics but the domestics had been squeezing that tighter and tighter, 1% at a time every several years over that time.

I do remember one year -- I forgot exactly which one -- when BMW announced in their ads that their prices had gone up very little in spite of the market (meaning currency fluctuations) but even though they increased the MSRP by about 1% they actually increased the dealer's invoice price by 2% and that was before they invented CSI and added 1% to the original 2% holdback. That last 1% was tied to your brand new CSI score, which wasn't all that hard to meet at first. The first 2% was unconditional but that extra 1% was entirely contingent on you meeting the goals they set for your dealership. And your service department's CSI score counted for 40% of the dealership's total score (sales = 60% and service = 40%). The first time we missed our quarterly CSI payout was entirely because our service department dropped the ball and we, in sales, were furious.

I think that was around the late 1980's or early 1990's that they increased the holdback from 2% to 3% making 1% of it contingent on CSI. All during my time with them, from the mid-1980's to the late 1990's, they were doing exactly what everybody else was doing and that's moving money from the front to the back. After I left the total "holdback" was upped to 5% and it was called AVP. Part of it was contingent on the dealer meeting a whole laundry list of new rules, suggestions, guidelines, requirements -- whatever you choose to call them. I'm only somewhat familiar with how that worked.

Then, in January of this year, Ludwig Willisch, announced publicly in Detroit that he was changing the way his dealers were compensated in the U.S. and replacing the old CSI method of measuring customer satisfaction with a new metric based on owner loyalty. He said it was because owner loyalty -- meaning repeating with the brand (maybe even the same dealer?) -- was a truer measure of customer satisfaction than anything the customer said in a survey: actions speak louder than words. So he was adding another 1% to the back and that 1% was intended to compensate his best dealers more than his bottom of heap dealers. It would be broken down into four parts, which Tim published on Bimmerfest months ago, and each component would count for .25%. He estimated that maybe only his top 20% of dealers at that time would meet all four requirements and his bottom 20% might meet only one or two of them.

So that's pretty much the latest that we know from publicly available information. The back, whether you call it AVP or something else, is now up to a potential total of 6% and the front has been decreased by 1%, as shown in the new calculations. Does that mean BMW is making more for themselves? I don't see that at all. All I see is them moving 1% from the front to the back and making their dealers behave themselves and do as they are told if they want to qualify for the whole thing.



P.S. -- You are still free to shop for a car exactly the same as you did before by comparing the deals you are offered by more than one dealer. Nothing has really changed. What difference does it make to you where the money goes, front or back? The traditional dealer network in the U.S. is still a very competitive marketplace. Dealers in some areas will cut each others throats to steal a deal from the other guy. Obviously this doesn't hold true if you're in the middle of nowhere Nebraska or some place like that but it does hold true if you live in L.A. where there are more than two dozen BMW dealers. 

Try to remember one thing. The dealer's invoice price represents what he pays for the car, it has nothing at all to do with what you pay for the car. If you need more proof of that just look at all the people who paid $100,000 over Monroney to be one of the first kids at their country club to have a new BMW i8. Could it be that your dealer might even offer you a deal that is much closer to his new invoice price than he would have offered you on that same model last year? Have you considered that possibility?

Remember, the only thing that counts is the price you and the dealer agree upon, not what the dealer's invoice shows. The dealer's invoice is his business. How BMW prices their cars to their dealers is their business. Your business is what the dealer wants you to pay for it. That's the number you're interested in, not what he says he paid for it.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Remember, the only thing that counts is the price you and the dealer agree upon, not what the dealer's invoice shows. *The dealer's invoice is his business*. How BMW prices their cars to their dealers is their business. *Your business is what the dealer wants you to pay for it.* That's the number you're interested in, not what he says he paid for it.


Past experience shows that, on a good day, dealers in general are unwilling to go below their invoice(before customer incentives), in spite of all the AVPs and loyalty credit and sales quota bonuses at the back. This scenario is on models with ample inventory(e.g. F30), let alone the ones with scarce inventory(e.g. i8).

Occasionally, when the timing is right, the dealers may dip into the sales bonuses, provided they know for sure the last few deals will hit the quotas.

At times the dealers may have stuck units, e.g. remaining MY15 while in summer 2016, the invoice prices on those are irrelevant as the depreciation is non-trivial.

In summary, a dealer's invoice is very much the customer's business, esp. on models with ample inventory.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> In summary, a dealer's invoice is very much the customer's business, esp. on models with ample inventory.


It's only the customer's business if he *thinks* it is.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Do you want to know who are the easiest customers in the world to close? The ones who know what the dealer's invoice is and what all the available incentives are. In other words, customers like you who already know everything when they first hit the showroom floor are a joy to deal with because you can easily convince them that you are giving them a very good deal.

Want to know who are the most difficult customers to close? The ones who have no clue what the dealer's invoice is but know that their buddy at work told them he just bought the same car last week and he got 20% off the sticker price. And they're usually talking about a new model that just came out a couple of weeks ago.

That's because you can't reason with that guy. First, you have to tell him his buddy lied to him and now he thinks you're lying to him because you're a car salesman and his buddy is more believable than you.

It's a known fact that people lie about the price they paid for a new car by overstating the discount or the value of their trade-in or both when telling their friends and neighbors what a good deal they got. Yet when those same people buy a new house, they are more likely to brag about how much they paid for it.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> It's only the customer's business if he *thinks* it is.


The invoice is very much the customer's business, it is a much better starting point that what the dealer* wants* customers to pay.

And to be specific, dealers seldom want customers to pay less than what dealers *actually* pay(NOT what dealers* say* they pay).


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The invoice is very much the customer's business, it is a much better starting point that what the dealer* wants* customers to pay.
> 
> And to be specific, dealers seldom want customers to pay less than what dealers *actually* pay(NOT what dealers* say* they pay).


Do you know what they're getting right now? If not, then you don't know the full picture. Have you seen some of the deals quoted already on even new 2017's?

Their current compensation structure has a lot of twists and turns in it based on one goal: volume! The dealer can make a lot of money by pushing cars out the door regardless of what you or I think is his so-called "invoice price." Did you notice any "build-out allowances" in the July/August program? Neither did I. Did you see any Purchase Credits or Lease Credits (except for models that end in an 'e' or begin with an 'i')? Neither did I? So, gee, I wonder why?

So maybe we don't know everything about what the dealer's total compensation potential is just by thinking we know his new "invoice price?" Maybe there are other things that are important to the dealer as well as BMWNA. Maybe that's what motivates him to take what appear to be low-gross deals? We don't know that. We can only look at what we see and then put two and two together.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Do you know what they're getting right now? If not, then you don't know the full picture. Have you seen some of the deals quoted already on even new 2017's?
> 
> Their current compensation structure has a lot of twists and turns in it based on one goal: volume! The dealer can make a lot of money by pushing cars out the door regardless of what you or I think is his so-called "invoice price." Did you notice any "build-out allowances" in the July/August program? Neither did I. Did you see any Purchase Credits or Lease Credits (except for models that end in an 'e' or begin with an 'i')? Neither did I? So, gee, I wonder why?
> 
> So maybe we don't know everything about what the dealer's total compensation potential is just by thinking we know his new "invoice price?" Maybe there are other things that are important to the dealer as well as BMWNA. Maybe that's what motivates him to take what appear to be low-gross deals? We don't know that. We can only look at what we see and then put two and two together.


Yes the cost/price structure is changing, notably the incentives seem to be curtailed. And the suggested shift from CSI to loyalty as metrics of AVP is also leaning towards the volume leaders.

One scenario is that BMWNA/BMWAG will further shrink difference of invoice and MSRP, and move the potential dealer profit from front to back, and further entice dealer behaviors, e.g. metal moving. In addition BMWNA/BMWAG can beef up its bottom line, and recoup other costs, e.g. airbag recalls?

As far as relevance of invoice, knowing the invoice does not necessarily mean paying the invoice. The invoice is a point of reference, so the *prevailing* good deal for a specific model can be $500(e.g.) below invoice before incentives.

Other two-and-two clues observed are, dealer CAs/SMs in general are not as motivated with the metal moving business model as previous one. My wild guess is that the CAs/SMs much prefer the wide(r) gap of MSRP and invoice in the past, so they can push lucrative MSRP-minus deals to uninformed customers.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> Yes the cost/price structure is changing, notably the incentives seem to be curtailed. And the suggested shift from CSI to loyalty as metrics of AVP is also leaning towards the volume leaders.
> 
> One scenario is that BMWNA/BMWAG will further shrink difference of invoice and MSRP, and move the potential dealer profit from front to back, and further entice dealer behaviors, e.g. metal moving. In addition BMWNA/BMWAG can beef up its bottom line, and recoup other costs, e.g. airbag recalls?
> 
> ...


Actually I have a different opinion of that. they (CA / SMs) would prefer what is happening now, as its less transparent. They can pull out an invoice and tell a customer "I cant sell it lower than this to you... look here is my invoice" and the vast majority of people would buy it... while they may be making more than previous on the back end.

THAT would be a much easier sell (lower spread, "transparency" by showing every customer the invoice because they can find it online anyway, with more back end money to make up for it) than having a larger spread would. Only my opinion of course, but since back end money is not transparent, THAT is how you make money on uninformed customers, while still appearing flexible etc.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> Actually I have a different opinion of that. they (CA / SMs) would prefer what is happening now, as its less transparent. They can pull out an invoice and tell a customer "I cant sell it lower than this to you... look here is my invoice" and the vast majority of people would buy it... while they may be making more than previous on the back end.
> 
> THAT would be a much easier sell (lower spread, "transparency" by showing every customer the invoice because they can find it online anyway, with more back end money to make up for it) than having a larger spread would. Only my opinion of course, but since back end money is not transparent, THAT is how you make money on uninformed customers, while still appearing flexible etc.


That can be a valid interpretation. There has been discussions of whether invoice plus pricing model is a shell game for the last 15-16 years(at least since the start of this forum), for all those years customers surely have been better off paying invoice plus than MSRP minus/plus(which many dealers are very willing to charge). 

My thinking is that given the airbag costs BMWNA needs to curtail the incentives(e.g. buildout cash) to pay for the extra costs.

It can be possible that most of the incentives now become unadvertised trunk money. Do note a primary purpose of this Ask-A-BMW-Dealer sub-forum is for festers to get clues of such unadvertised factory-to-dealer incentives from board sponsors. :thumbup:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> My wild guess is that the CAs/SMs much prefer the wide(r) gap of MSRP and invoice in the past, so they can push lucrative MSRP-minus deals to uninformed customers.


If we're talking about the salesmen ("client advisors"), that's not a wild guess, that has always been true. They don't want anything to happen that reduces their payable gross unless there is also a change to their volume bonus (assuming they even have one) but they hate that setup. It forces them to hit certain volume numbers every month in order to have a decent month at all. If they have a bad month, meaning they don't hit even their minimum volume bonus level, then it's a really bad month. The salesmen in the top third of the sales force (meaning mostly those who have been there the longest) love pay plans that are loaded with great volume bonuses, especially if they know they will hit the top bonus level every month.

Sales managers are not compensated the same way salesmen are compensated. And general sales managers are compensated on everything -- new car sales, used car sales, fleet, Internet sales and the F&I department. They usually have bonuses tied to the dealership's quarterly payout from the factory and almost always have a nice year-end bonus tied to meeting yearly volume goals and sometimes a little something based on CSI numbers, too.

Every dealership is different and chain dealers can be really different because they have their own ideas. Some are tightly controlled and other let each location's general manager run the store his way, within certain corporate guidelines. Some of them have layers of intermediate managers, usually one for each brand and often one for each region of the country who supervises all brands as long as the dealership is in his region. Try having to report to a Lexus guy whose entire experience was with that Japanese brand if you're a BMW guy. And I'm sure it's even more painful if you're a GM guy or a Ford guy. They were raised in different families, so to speak. LOL

I have talked to a couple of guys who are just regular salesmen and they think their new pay plans put more pressure on them "to move metal" regardless of the gross -- meaning amount over the new dealer's invoice price. Yet at the same time they expect them to still hold "gross." So their pay plan is tilted toward volume but they catch heat for trying to give everything away. LOL


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> I have talked to a couple of guys who are just regular salesmen and they think their new pay plans put more pressure on them "to move metal" regardless of the gross -- meaning amount over the new dealer's invoice price. Yet at the same time they expect them to still hold "gross." So their pay plan is tilted toward volume but they catch heat for trying to give everything away. LOL


Yes that matches with my observations, namely, moving metal is the primary goal. The pressure is on the CAs to move the metal, but the prices still need to be signed off by GSMs/SMs, who still have their incentives(from the GM) somewhat tied to gross. It seems BMWNA is moving towards a volume brand like Honda/Toyota.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> Do note a primary purpose of this Ask-A-BMW-Dealer sub-forum is for festers to get clues of such unadvertised factory-to-dealer incentives from board sponsors. :thumbup:


Well, that may be a "primary purpose" of the board members but it had better not be something coming from a "board sponsor" who works for a BMW dealership or he will be told -- actually his GM or GSM will be told -- for him to chill out and give it a rest. Interesting how that works. They read all the hobbyist forums, they just can't register or post comments. What they can do is report to their superiors who will then call the dealership and report the activities of any employee of a BMW dealership who reveals, or even confirms, what they consider to be their "proprietary information." I'm sure you've seen how that works very recently on this very same forum, haven't you? Notice anyone not posting as much lately as he once did? Notice any other changes? Please don't name anyone but I think you know who I'm talking about.

If a board sponsor who is a BMW client advisor does post to the forum it's usually to answer a procedural question but certainly never to answer a question about invoice or mark up or factory-to-dealer incentives that are not being published by BMW. Even when they do occasionally jump into a thread started by a member looking for a certain car it's usually to say something like, "Hey, OP, contact me directly, I can help..." They're not about to say on the board exactly what they mean by that because that would be going too far. And they're not going to answer any of your questions about mark-ups or new additions to the dealer's base model invoice price. We have to figure that out for ourselves by looking at VIRs that so many client advisors seem more than willing to share with their customers in order to prove how good the deal is that they gave him. Sometimes even Google can come up with that for you.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ninong said:


> Well, that may be a "primary purpose" of the board members but it had better not be something coming from a "board sponsor" who works for a BMW dealership or he will be told -- actually his GM or GSM will be told -- for him to chill out and give it a rest. Interesting how that works. They read all the hobbyist forums, they just can't register or post comments. What they can do is report to their superiors who will then call the dealership and report the activities of any employee of a BMW dealership who reveals, or even confirms, what they consider to be their "proprietary information." I'm sure you've seen how that works very recently on this very same forum, haven't you? Notice anyone not posting as much lately as he once did? Notice any other changes? Please don't name anyone but I think you know who I'm talking about.
> 
> If a board sponsor who is a BMW client advisor does post to the forum it's usually to answer a procedural question but certainly never to answer a question about invoice or mark up or factory-to-dealer incentives that are not being published by BMW. Even when they do occasionally jump into a thread started by a member looking for a certain car it's usually to say something like, "Hey, OP, contact me directly, I can help..." They're not about to say on the board exactly what they mean by that because that would be going too far. And they're not going to answer any of your questions about mark-ups or new additions to the dealer's base model invoice price. We have to figure that out for ourselves by looking at VIRs that so many client advisors seem more than willing to share with their customers in order to prove how good the deal is that they gave him. Sometimes even Google can come up with that for you.


The board sponsor participation(in terms of disclosing incentives and info) have dropped quite a bit in last few years, so it is not a recent occurrence.

And a while back the board founder got heat from posting RV's, so for sure BMWNA(and not necessarily GM's/GSM's) takes notice and starts to curtail disclosures of non-public info in public forums.

As far as a specific respected CA not posting recently, his last few posts had detailed explanations of his rationales.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

namelessman said:


> The board sponsor participation(in terms of disclosing incentives and info) have dropped quite a bit in last few years, so it is not a recent occurrence.
> 
> And a while back the board founder got heat from posting RV's, so for sure BMWNA(and not necessarily GM's/GSM's) takes notice and starts to curtail disclosures of non-public info in public forums.
> 
> As far as a specific respected CA not posting recently, his last few posts had detailed explanations of his rationales.


In this particular case in question, BMWNA called up his GSM. He's no longer a sponsor and he hasn't posted anything in the past 8 days.


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## Dennisis (Oct 1, 2013)

Ninong said:


> In this particular case in question, BMWNA called up his GSM. He's no longer a sponsor and he hasn't posted anything in the past 8 days.


Well that just sucks.


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## Okiekids1 (Sep 21, 2016)

That's very helpful, thanks. I just didn't want to be $500+ off on my invoice numbers.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Is MACO for all regions a change for 2017? 

I just got an invoice printout from a dealer on a 2016, and there is a line item for MACO that says N/C.

I also bought a BMW last January and paid no MACO. 

The BMW that I bought in 2011 DID have MACO. 

All the same region.


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

Yes, it is no longer regional. It is really not "MACO" but some other mystery fee that gets added on in place of MACO. But as everyone knows what MACO is, it is easier to explain it that way. At least that is what I was told from people in the know.

Tim


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

tim330i said:


> Yes, it is no longer regional. It is really not "MACO" but some other mystery fee that gets added on in place of MACO. But as everyone knows what MACO is, it is easier to explain it that way. At least that is what I was told from people in the know.
> 
> Tim


Ouch. That's another $500 price increase for buyers not in a MACO region previously.


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## vikassi (Jan 25, 2017)

Question on calculating invoice, please! Once I calculate the base US MSRP invoice, do I then add the packages and options to that number and then multiply by .92 or just multiply the cost of the packages and options by .92 and then add that to the "calculated" base invoice? I'm sorry ... I failed at math.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

vikassi said:


> Question on calculating invoice, please! Once I calculate the base US MSRP invoice, do I then add the packages and options to that number and then multiply by .92 or just multiply the cost of the packages and options by .92 and then add that to the "calculated" base invoice? I'm sorry ... I failed at math.


Here is the information in the pricing thread:

BMW Invoice Pricing calculation
Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets below) multiplied by 0.93
+ MACO fee $500.00 (flat rate applied to all dealers)
= Base vehicle US BMW invoice price

To figure the invoice price of your BMW as configured add -
+ Option and packages (anything you can add to the vehicle) multiplied by 0.92
+ Training fee of $180.00
+ Destination and handling charge - Currently $995 
= Total vehicle invoice price +/- $10.00

It might help if you have an example, so let me make up one.

Lets assume you are looking at a new 340i (not the X drive version). That car has a BASE MSRP price of 47,900.

Take 47,900 and multiply by .93 = 44,947. This is invoice for the BASE car.

Now lets assume I add the following:

Estoril Blue metalic = 700
oyster dakota leather = 1450
Cold weather package = 800
M sport ( zero cost)
Drivers Assist 950
Adaptive M 700
Technology package 2750
Apple Car Play 300
Lighting Package 800

This is 8450 of options.

Multiply this by .92

8450 X .92 = 7774

So... MSRP is 56,350 + 995 Destination. With the above information we get the following for invoice

Base of car 47,900 X .93 = 44,947
Options = 8450 X .92 = 7774

44,947 + 500 (maco listed above) = 45,447
7774 + 180 (training) = 7954

45,447 + 7954 = 53,401

BMW tends to round up to the nearest 5 so invoice on this car would likely be 53,405


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## vikassi (Jan 25, 2017)

jjrandorin said:


> Here is the information in the pricing thread:
> 
> BMW Invoice Pricing calculation
> Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets below) multiplied by 0.93
> ...


wow, thanks for taking the time to help. that was awesome and much appreciated!


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## vikassi (Jan 25, 2017)

jjrandorin said:


> Here is the information in the pricing thread:
> 
> BMW Invoice Pricing calculation
> Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets below) multiplied by 0.93
> ...


For the record, my example would be the 530i Xdrive.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

vikassi said:


> For the record, my example would be the 530i Xdrive.


I guessed that (I read a lot of bimmerfest F series forums so I saw your post in the 5 series forum), but that car is not on the configurator as of yet, and I did not feel like sifting through the pricing sheets myself to do all that work.

I picked something on the configurator to show you how to do it in a detailed fashion, so I figured you could apply the step by step to a new "G" 5 series by looking at the pricing sheets for it.

Good luck.

EDIT: In my example, it appears that I forgot to add the destination to the final calculations. Doesnt matter since this is a fictitious example, but destination charges are part of the invoice so you have to add it.


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## swimdng0 (Mar 17, 2015)

Based on the latest MY 2018 July build (with 20" 668M wheels, 12.3" dash, etc) for an M550i x, I calculated the invoice below for my desired build. Can someone help verify if my calc look about right? Is my offer of $79K a good offer? My bad if I post in the wrong thread. Thanks!

Base car $72,100 

Exterior color 
416	Carbon Black Metallic - 

Interior Upholstery 
LZFK	Black Nappa $1,000 

Packages 
ZCW	Cold weather pack $800 
ZDA	Driving Assistance pack $1,700 
ZDH	Dynamic Handling pack $3,600 
ZEC	Executive package $1,200 
ZPK	Parking Assistance pack $700 

Options 
300	Space saver spare - need 22E $150 
6CP	Apple CarPlay $300 
6U8	Gesture Control $190 
6WB	Dynamic Digital Instrument - need ZEC $350 
22E	20" M wheels 668M non-RFT Michellin Pilot Super Sport tires $1,100 

Destination & Handling $995 

MSRP $84,185 

Invoice	
.93 x 72,100 + $500 MACO $67,553 
.92 x options & packages $10,203 
Training fee $180 
Destination fee $995 
Total Invoice $78,931 

Dealer profit MSRP $5,254 
Dealer Hold back 5% $4,209 
Dealer Total Profit $9,463 

My offer $79,000 
Actual dealer profit $4,278


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## Bacnbmw (Jun 27, 2017)

swimdng0 said:


> Based on the latest MY 2018 July build (with 20" 668M wheels, 12.3" dash, etc) for an M550i x, I calculated the invoice below for my desired build. Can someone help verify if my calc look about right? Is my offer of $79K a good offer? My bad if I post in the wrong thread. Thanks!
> 
> Base car $72,100
> 
> ...


I'm looking at a very similar build and I'm just curious as to how you actually did?


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## swimdng0 (Mar 17, 2015)

Bacnbmw said:


> I'm looking at a very similar build and I'm just curious as to how you actually did?


A dealer in St Louis accepted my offer for $80K. Very nice guy to work with too.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Der_Kommissar (Aug 16, 2016)

Who did you work with, and which dealer? I live in STL and have only worked with Autohaus.


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## swimdng0 (Mar 17, 2015)

Der_Kommissar said:


> Who did you work with, and which dealer? I live in STL and have only worked with Autohaus.


I ordered mine from Autohaus in STL. Ask for Renard Lasane. Very nice to work with and no pressure.


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## RNJ26 (Aug 22, 2015)

Any changes to calculating invoice on 2018 models?


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

RNJ26 said:


> Any changes to calculating invoice on 2018 models?


Nope.


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## Der_Kommissar (Aug 16, 2016)

swimdng0 said:


> I ordered mine from Autohaus in STL. Ask for Renard Lasane. Very nice to work with and no pressure.


I think they are a very good dealership, overall. Always been happy with sales and service there.


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

are most people getting deals now below invoice based off these new calculations? seems a bit too good to true or something is skewed

im about 6 months out from lease term and reached out to my dealer for pricing on a 2018 X6 sdrive with MSRP of 77644, based off these calcs, the invoice should be about 73400. my advisor quoted me a sales price of about 73000, which should be about 74000 after dest and maco. so ends up being about $500 above invoice for a build to order... seems too good to be true. but i havent had to shop for a new bmw in almost 3 years so not sure if things have changed that much.


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

are most people getting deals now below invoice based off these new calculations? seems a bit too good to true or something is skewed

im about 6 months out from lease term and reached out to my dealer for pricing on a 2018 X6 sdrive with MSRP of 77644, based off these calcs, the invoice should be about 73400. my advisor quoted me a sales price of about 73000, which should be about 74000 after dest and maco. so ends up being about $500 above invoice for a build to order... seems too good to be true. but i havent had to shop for a new bmw in almost 3 years so not sure if things have changed that much.


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## ctorrey (Mar 17, 2007)

johntchow said:


> are most people getting deals now below invoice based off these new calculations? seems a bit too good to true or something is skewed
> 
> im about 6 months out from lease term and reached out to my dealer for pricing on a 2018 X6 sdrive with MSRP of 77644, based off these calcs, the invoice should be about 73400. my advisor quoted me a sales price of about 73000, which should be about 74000 after dest and maco. so ends up being about $500 above invoice for a build to order... seems too good to be true. but i havent had to shop for a new bmw in almost 3 years so not sure if things have changed that much.


After using this type of formula for my previous 3 leases ('Invoice plus' deals), I basically went to a percentage off MSRP (including incentives) on the leases of our '17 340xi & X3 earlier this spring. With all the trunk money, it became too difficult to get everything itemized, etc. For the record, we got ~11% off the 340xi and ~10% off the X3. They were negotiated and custom ordered simultaneously. For the record, I consider myself a VERY educated BMW lessee. I spend hours & hours researching, pricing, and comparing other published transactions to try to ensure a fair deal can be negotiated. A strong relationship with the CA doesn't hurt!


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

I'm finalizing my order today for a 2018 M550 and i noticed my dealer doesnt include the $500 MACO or the $180 in the MSRP. so that skewed a bit of how "great" a deal i was getting. but at least they are not marking up the MF or taking cash elsewhere.

it looks like they just charge a $80 fee at drive off instead.

so im basically paying invoice ($925 bank fee included) and before the $3500 in incentives


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

I'm finalizing my order today for a 2018 M550 and i noticed my dealer doesnt include the $500 MACO or the $180 training fee in the MSRP. so that skewed a bit of how "great" a deal i was getting. but at least they are not marking up the MF or taking cash elsewhere.

it looks like they just charge a $80 fee at drive off instead.

so im basically paying invoice ($925 bank fee included) and before the $3500 in incentives


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

johntchow said:


> I'm finalizing my order today for a 2018 M550 and i noticed my dealer doesnt include the $500 MACO or the $180 training fee in the MSRP. so that skewed a bit of how "great" a deal i was getting. but at least they are not marking up the MF or taking cash elsewhere.
> 
> it looks like they just charge a $80 fee at drive off instead.
> 
> so im basically paying invoice ($925 bank fee included) and before the $3500 in incentives


Those fees (500 and the 180) are not supposed to concern us as buyers (they are dealer borne costs). We are "supposed" (by the model the dealers and BMW would prefer we use) just look at a discount from MSRP. Now that Invoice is readily available everywhere, more car manufacturers are moving money "to the back" so the spread between invoice and MSRP is getting smaller.

Sounds like you are getting a really good price, if you are paying invoice before incentives of 3500 for a M550.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

johntchow said:


> I'm finalizing my order today for a 2018 M550 and i noticed my dealer doesnt include the $500 MACO or the $180 training fee in the MSRP. so that skewed a bit of how "great" a deal i was getting. but at least they are not marking up the MF or taking cash elsewhere.
> 
> it looks like they just charge a $80 fee at drive off instead.
> 
> so im basically paying invoice ($925 bank fee included) and before the $3500 in incentives


If you have a selling price that is invoice and includes the Acq Fee, then you are paying $925 under invoice.

Have they produced an invoice for you to see? They can take your specs and build an invoice. If they haven't, and your deal is based on invoice, I'd have them produce one.


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> If you have a selling price that is invoice and includes the Acq Fee, then you are paying $925 under invoice.
> 
> Have they produced an invoice for you to see? They can take your specs and build an invoice. If they haven't, and your deal is based on invoice, I'd have them produce one.


attached is the lease calc... im about to add the drivers assist package which will bum msrp another $1700 and net cap about $1600 though

ive got the vehicle inquiry form with my production number also but its based off the build without drivers assist. so im going ot have them add that.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

johntchow said:


> attached is the lease calc... im about to add the drivers assist package which will bum msrp another $1700 and net cap about $1600 though
> 
> ive got the vehicle inquiry form with my production number also but its based off the build without drivers assist. so im going ot have them add that.


Napkin math on the deal you are posting looks like 500 over invoice or so, prior to incentives (and prior to that bank acquisition fee, which is being added to the cap cost like normal).


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

johntchow said:


> attached is the lease calc... im about to add the drivers assist package which will bum msrp another $1700 and net cap about $1600 though
> 
> ive got the vehicle inquiry form with my production number also but its based off the build without drivers assist. so im going ot have them add that.


Have them provide the "Wholesale/Retail" version.


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> Have them provide the "Wholesale/Retail" version.


Is the wholesale/retail different from the calculation in this thread? I already ordered the car anyway though. I'm not trying to get the lowest price, lord knows the dealer needs to make something. Was just curious what deals others were getting just so that I wasn't getting raped

Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

johntchow said:


> Is the wholesale/retail different from the calculation in this thread? I already ordered the car anyway though. I'm not trying to get the lowest price, lord knows the dealer needs to make something. Was just curious what deals others were getting just so that I wasn't getting raped
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app


Based on what you posted, it looks pretty solid to me. I did not calculate the MF etc, but it looks pretty darn solid.


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## ctorrey (Mar 17, 2007)

johntchow said:


> attached is the lease calc... im about to add the drivers assist package which will bum msrp another $1700 and net cap about $1600 though
> 
> ive got the vehicle inquiry form with my production number also but its based off the build without drivers assist. so im going ot have them add that.


Don't like the idea of a cap cost reduction. That is simply a pre-payment of the lease and the money is at risk in the event of a loss. My advice: hang onto to the $3500 and use it each month to offset the increased monthly payments - or just use it to make the first 2.5 payments.


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

ctorrey said:


> Don't like the idea of a cap cost reduction. That is simply a pre-payment of the lease and the money is at risk in the event of a loss. My advice: hang onto to the $3500 and use it each month to offset the increased monthly payments - or just use it to make the first 2.5 payments.


The $3500 is from incentives... $2000 from the 5 series loyalty and $1500 from 5 series incentive. Dealer said they could lock in the incentives which I was surprised...

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

johntchow said:


> The $3500 is from incentives... $2000 from the 5 series loyalty and $1500 from 5 series incentive. Dealer said they could lock in the incentives which I was surprised...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Thats why I didnt say anything about the cap cost reduction, because it was coming from your incentives.

Like I said, it looks pretty solid to me for a M550. Somewhere around invoice to invoice +500 (somewhere in between there from eyeball math), before incentives. *I didnt check the money factor on the quote though so I would check that, and make sure you are happy with whatever they are quoting you for it.*

EDIT: After typing that statement, it bothered me so I calculated the MF based on your screenshot. Its .00152 (so base MF for this month). Looks really solid to me :thumbup:


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## ctorrey (Mar 17, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> Thats why I didnt say anything about the cap cost reduction, because it was coming from your incentives.
> 
> Like I said, it looks pretty solid to me for a M550. Somewhere around invoice to invoice +500 (somewhere in between there from eyeball math), before incentives. *I didnt check the money factor on the quote though so I would check that, and make sure you are happy with whatever they are quoting you for it.*
> 
> EDIT: After typing that statement, it bothered me so I calculated the MF based on your screenshot. Its .00152 (so base MF for this month). Looks really solid to me :thumbup:


What he said!


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

johntchow said:


> Is the wholesale/retail different from the calculation in this thread? I already ordered the car anyway though. I'm not trying to get the lowest price, lord knows the dealer needs to make something. Was just curious what deals others were getting just so that I wasn't getting raped
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app


The calculation is fine. As Ninong always said, "+ or - $10"

I'm suggesting that if people are working on an invoice-based deal, the dealer should provide the actual invoice. No surprises that way.

And you don't need to know if MACO is in there (which it won't be, it's baked into the base invoice), etc.

mjb


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> Thats why I didnt say anything about the cap cost reduction, because it was coming from your incentives.
> 
> Like I said, it looks pretty solid to me for a M550. Somewhere around invoice to invoice +500 (somewhere in between there from eyeball math), before incentives. *I didnt check the money factor on the quote though so I would check that, and make sure you are happy with whatever they are quoting you for it.*
> 
> EDIT: After typing that statement, it bothered me so I calculated the MF based on your screenshot. Its .00152 (so base MF for this month). Looks really solid to me :thumbup:


oops sorry, yeah the MF was standard .00152

ive been leasing bmws since 2004 and working with the current CA for almost 10 years now. i created an excel lease calculator and did notice they were marking up the monthly rental years past on some quotes but now they do them straight with me.

just in the past i would build invoice pricing using edmunds to figure out how much i was paying over invoice. but after seeing this thread i started using the new calculation here. but then got thrown off by the MACO and training fees since my dealer didnt show them anywhere so if they are baked in already in the us invoice base price then its call good.

thanks everyone for the clarification and glad to get confirmation that i am getting a "decent" deal.


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## 280BlackPearl (Feb 26, 2013)

*Ordering a 2018 530e*

Hi All,

Although I joined a few years ago, I never pulled the trigger back then on a new BMW but am now contemplating a 2018 BMW 530e.

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong thread but I'd love any advice on pricing you can give.

Here is my build and the pricing being offered by one local dealer (at the bottom):

530e xDrive - $54,700
Carbon Black Metallic - $550
Mocha Nappa Leather - $1,000
Driving Assistance Package - $1,700
Driving Assistance Plus Package - $1,700
Dynamic Handling Package - $1,450
Luxury Seating Package - $1,600
M Sport Package 2 - $6,050
Executive Package - $2,100
Heated Steering Wheel - $190
Ceramic Controls - $650
Harmon Kardon sound system - $875
Apple Car Play - $300
Wireless Charging - $400
Total - $73,265

The dealer is quoting:
$71,170
$(4,000) "Performance Rebate" - must finance
$595 - Documentation Fee
Final Price $67,765

If I use the calculation provided earlier in this thread I get:
Invoice - base price: $50,871 ($54,700 x .93)
MACO: $500
Invoice - options: $17,078.90 ($18,565 x .92)
Training fee: $180
Destination - $995
Invoice: $69,624.90

So the dealer offer appears to be $1,900 under invoice - so I'm sure I've done something wrong!

PS - I had intended to pay cash but would finance the minimum ($15,000) to get the $4,000 credit. I would then pay off the loan after six months.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

280BlackPearl said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Although I joined a few years ago, I never pulled the trigger back then on a new BMW but am now contemplating a 2018 BMW 530e.
> 
> ...


Using your invoice calculation, the dealer is NOT $1,900 under invoice. The dealer is at $71,170 plus an additional dealer profit of $595 for the non-mandatory doc fee.

Rebates/incentives account for the bulk of the reduced price -- those are not coming from the dealer but from BMWNA.

71,170+595=71,765. The dealer is $2,140 OVER your calculated invoice amount. Not a horrible deal, but you should be able to do better, especially this time of year and double-especially if the car is from dealer's inventory.

Always wise to separate out the dealer's "offered discount" from manufacturer's rebates and incentives. Keeps things clearer.

You may wish to start your own thread in this Ask a BMW Dealer section as that might yield more responses.

Best of luck!


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## 280BlackPearl (Feb 26, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Using your invoice calculation, the dealer is NOT $1,900 under invoice. The dealer is at $71,170 plus an additional dealer profit of $595 for the non-mandatory doc fee.
> 
> Rebates/incentives account for the bulk of the reduced price -- those are not coming from the dealer but from BMWNA.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Very much appreciated. I guess I have more work to do with my negotiations.


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## 280BlackPearl (Feb 26, 2013)

280BlackPearl said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Although I joined a few years ago, I never pulled the trigger back then on a new BMW but am now contemplating a 2018 BMW 530e.
> 
> ...


UPDATE:
I've received a quote from another dealer on the build above. So the first dealer is $2,140 over invoice and the second is $1,605 over invoice.

I believe both dealers are willing to negotiate further. What premium over dealer invoice should I be targeting? I want to be fair to the dealer and have them make money but how much is fair? What are others paying / seeing in terms of a profit to the dealer? This will be a factory order.

Thanks for any help!


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

So, you're $500 better already. Nice.

When the margins start getting thin, often it is the details that make the difference. Quality of the delivery experience. Ability of the dealer to get your order entered correctly as specified and going quickly.

Now it comes down to the value of your time and the details of the moving parts of your final deal. And how the deal is executed. And the quality of the BMW Center's customer experience.

Some say, sit down with the CA, looking him/her dead in the eye, and say, "If you can deliver this car at dead invoice minus incentives I'm ready to sign the deal right now." Some believe good deals are measured by how far back of invoice you can get. Some say, it's friggin' Christmas and CAs have to buy presents too, so let them have a little, as in $500 over invoice.

I say, do your own calculations, figure what the car is worth to you, knowing that 5 minutes after you drive it off the lot it will drop in value by thousands and thousands of dollars and then keep dropping from there....

Do you need/want any F&I add-ons like extended service plans or wheel and tire protection? If so, those costs need to be ground down and folded in. Do you plan to keep the car for many years or are you a new car smell sort of person who wants the latest and greatest every few years?

Long way of saying, you lose a bit of price leverage this time of year if you're not willing to buy out of dealer inventory, so if you are hovering anywhere close to invoice, then it's just a matter of how aggressively you want to test the bottom, and, how much more you need the price to come down to get to yes.

In the end, you get the car you want. You drive the car, not the deal. But, in the current market, grinding hard might get you lower than you are. If that's important to you.

Hope this helps.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Can't help myself. It is very decent of you to want to be "fair" to the dealer. Trust me, the dealer will take care of the dealer so you need not worry about that. Remembering that a fair price is what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will take, your situation comes down to deciding what you are willing to pay and then giving the dealer of your choice an opportunity to meet your terms.

And your terms include interest rate/money factor, add-ons, doc fees, and anything else that might add costs to the deal.

You: "If you can deliver this car at dead invoice, minus incentives and rebates, I'm prepared to sign right now."

CA: "I checked with my manager and, on this car, we can't do that."

You: "How close to my offer can you get?"

CA: "We've presented you with a very aggressive offer already."

You: "I appreciate that. We need to do better. and we need your improved offer to be the inclusive price. I don't want to walk into the Finance office and discover they have added any additional fees or charges that aren't government registration or taxes."

CA: "I believe you're looking at our best offer right in front of you."

You: A: "I'll take it. Let's go over it line by line."
B: "We're almost there but not quite. If we can't get down to invoice I think I need to do some shopping. I know I can do a Performance Center delivery from any dealer and I've got time to shop. So, you can get this deal right now and save me a bunch of hassle by telling your manager that we need to get to invoice for an immediate yes, and to prevent me from shopping elsewhere. And invoice guarantees you all 10's on the survey. Word."
C: "If your manger will split the difference between your current offer and invoice, I will, reluctantly, say yes. If that can't be done, I need to keep shopping elsewhere."
D: "Mercedes has some very compelling offers on some very attractive cars. Maybe this is telling me I need to consider another brand."


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## 280BlackPearl (Feb 26, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Can't help myself. It is very decent of you to want to be "fair" to the dealer. Trust me, the dealer will take care of the dealer so you need not worry about that. Remembering that a fair price is what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will take, your situation comes down to deciding what you are willing to pay and then giving the dealer of your choice an opportunity to meet your terms.
> 
> And your terms include interest rate/money factor, add-ons, doc fees, and anything else that might add costs to the deal.
> 
> ...


Really great advice and I very much appreciate your input on negotiating strategies. I love the suggestion "invoice guarantees you all 10's on the survey".

Under a "dead invoice" scenario, is the CA / dealer making any money on the sale? I assume they must be or else they would never agree to it. What are they getting out of a dead invoice deal?


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

280BlackPearl said:


> Really great advice and I very much appreciate your input on negotiating strategies.
> I love the suggestion "invoice guarantees you all 10's on the survey".
> 
> Under a "dead invoice" scenario, is the CA / dealer making any money on the sale? I assume they must be or else they would never agree to it. What are they getting out of a dead invoice deal?


The CA makes very little on an "invoice" deal. That would be known as a "mini" meaning a "mini commission, so they will make something like $200 or $300 (the salesperson). The DEALER *MAY* make any additional "trunk money" if any (factory to DEALER cash that may be available to move certain models).

The dealer *MAY* make additional money from what is commonly called "holdback in the car business (but bmw has some other name for).. "Holdback" is monies the factory pays the dealer if they hit certain incentives. There is UP TO 5% available as rebates from the factory to the dealer, HOWEVER only 10% of all dealers hit all the categories per information that was relayed to us here. Most dealers are likely getting 2-4% of this money, and it goes to the DEALERSHIP itself, not the CA (and usually not the sales manager either).

Sometimes it could make sense for a dealer to sell a specific car (or cars) to "hit their numbers" such that selling a unit means they hit their monthly / quarterly quota, triggering a bigger rebate per car. In a situation like that, they will sell that car or cars at whatever they need to to hit their numbers.. even taking a "loss".

Its VERY hard to try to "time" that or figure it out, because it would obviously be different for different dealers. All you can do is ask for the pricing, and if it makes sense for them, dont try to figure out WHY it makes sense.. just recognize what constitutes a good deal and be ready to "say yes" to a good deal.

One more thing.... 1968 and I are on the same page on almost all of his recommendations. The only place we slightly differ, is that a lot of his suggestions on negotiating and such are what I would call "advanced level" communications.

An example of this is that is the following negotiation recommendation from him:

"invoice guarantees you all 10's on the survey".

Its VERY hard to deliver such a line without sounding like its a threat, or sounding like you are a @$#!$!#@ who is holding the survey results "hostage". It is CERTAINLY possible. I know he has done it, and I have done something similar as well "although I will normally say something like " Gettiing to XXX numbers will make me VERY happy, and I understand the significance of the survey in such matters" with a wink or something like that.....

Anyway, for anyone reading this (not just this OP) when you read 1968s (excellent) suggestions, please think about them in your own words, and understand that if you are not someone who normally "communicates easily" with people, that certain things should just be left off, because they have the potential to backfire (in the case of that particular statement, backfire spectacularly).


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Thank you jj.

Ninong always reminded us, as the customer, it's really none of our business, or our worry, as to how/what the dealer gets paid. There are so many "hidden" manufacturer-to-dealer incentive programs, ever-changing, that often even the person selling us the car doesn't know what the dealer stands to make at any given price point.

Yes, we should be sensitive to the reality that, in most pay plans, CAs make the bulk of their money holding the gross. But, on any specific car, it's almost impossible to know at what price point that transaction turns a profit for the dealer. So we don't worry about it. We focus on what we are willing to pay for an "asset" that falls in value the minute we sign the paperwork, no matter how good the deal.

We can never know if a particular salesperson, in a given month, might be one unit away from a bonus and thus won't really care if all he/she gets is a mini commission on that last unit that puts things over the top into bonusland. Or if the dealer is a unit or two away from a big stair-step payment that will boost the manager's bonus.

So, we learn how to calculate the numbers based on what we can know, and, coming into the BMW Center ready to sign a deal today, we make an informed offer and _give the dealer an opportunity to make a deal_.

And we are courteous throughout the process. Firm, focused, but courteous. And we give top CSI ratings or, if there's an issue the dealer needs to address, we give the dealer the opportunity to do whatever is necessary to earn those top ratings.

Then we drive off in the car, forgetting the deal because we are loving what we are driving.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Other factors can include:

Is there an stair-step monthly volume $ by model and or on the aggregate?

What's the dealer's profit strategy? Do they have enough used car business profit to offset going into holdback or stair-step on new cars? Or do they need new car volume?

Is the dealer focused on client retention vs new client acquisition? If you are trying to build market share, then you might push for more new car deals.

Do managers/GMs get paid on holdback? If not, then they might go into it more. If they do, then they might be less likely to give it up.

It's not as clear cut as, "I've seen online XYZ gave 10% off. Why can't you?"

mjb



jjrandorin said:


> The CA makes very little on an "invoice" deal. That would be known as a "mini" meaning a "mini commission, so they will make something like $200 or $300 (the salesperson). The DEALER *MAY* make any additional "trunk money" if any (factory to DEALER cash that may be available to move certain models).
> 
> The dealer *MAY* make additional money from what is commonly called "holdback in the car business (but bmw has some other name for).. "Holdback" is monies the factory pays the dealer if they hit certain incentives. There is UP TO 5% available as rebates from the factory to the dealer, HOWEVER only 10% of all dealers hit all the categories per information that was relayed to us here. Most dealers are likely getting 2-4% of this money, and it goes to the DEALERSHIP itself, not the CA (and usually not the sales manager either).
> 
> ...


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## titan7 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thoughts on a ordered M4. Basically getting Buy rate on the MF. 5.5% off MSRP of $74725, sale price is $70720. Thought invovice was closer to $68,850. I guess the days of $500 over invoice are gone? I know they need to make $$ too, so is asking for $70k for the sales price being fair? The $3500 in BMW incentives are being used for cap reduction. No other add on fees, doc, 80.00+gov fee 588+ACq 925, drive offs $2881.

Thoughts


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

titan7 said:


> Thoughts on a ordered M4. Basically getting Buy rate on the MF. 5.5% off MSRP of $74725, sale price is $70720. Thought invovice was closer to $68,850. * I guess the days of $500 over invoice are gon*e? I know they need to make $$ too, so is asking for $70k for the sales price being fair? The $3500 in BMW incentives are being used for cap reduction. No other add on fees, doc, 80.00+gov fee 588+ACq 925, drive offs $2881.
> 
> Thoughts


Depends on the dealer, the deal, etc.

Invoice on an M4 is roughly 7%, you say you are 5.5% off MSRP, and that your rebates are being used for cap reduction (which is where they normally go ). Invoice on that car would be ROUGHLY 69.5k. Cali doc fee is 80, lease acq is 925 and reg of 588 looks about right for our yearly registration fees.

I might push for 70k and also make sure the rebate is being applied to the cap cost, and not eaten up by some other fees.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

titan7 said:


> Thoughts on a ordered M4. Basically getting Buy rate on the MF. 5.5% off MSRP of $74725, Thought invoice was closer to $68,850. ...


Invoices on all cars are running between 5.7% and 6.2%, depending on options, from my experience. Even using the higher %, invoice should be around $70,100. So you're pretty close to $500 over right now.


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## titan7 (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks, the dealer is a high volume M dealer, they sent me the photo of the deal screen, the bmw incentives are being applied as a cap reduction as planned. I just thought if invoice was MSRP-$995(destination/handling) x .92 +$995. The build MSRP is $73,730, total MSRP is $74,725. So I figured the invoice was around $68k. That***8217;s why I wanted to check on pricing here first.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

titan7 said:


> Thanks, the dealer is a high volume M dealer, they sent me the photo of the deal screen, the bmw incentives are being applied as a cap reduction as planned. I just thought if invoice was MSRP-$995(destination/handling) x .92 +$995. The build MSRP is $73,730, total MSRP is $74,725. So I figured the invoice was around $68k. That's why I wanted to check on pricing here first.


Invoice calculation is as follows from what is posted here:

==================================

BMW Invoice Pricing calculation
Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets below) multiplied by 0.93
+ MACO fee $500.00 (flat rate applied to all dealers)
= Base vehicle US BMW invoice price

To figure the invoice price of your BMW as configured add -
+ Option and packages (anything you can add to the vehicle) multiplied by 0.92
+ Training fee of $180.00
+ Destination and handling charge - Currently $995 
= Total vehicle invoice price +/- $10.00


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## titan7 (Jun 23, 2008)

jjrandorin said:


> Invoice calculation is as follows from what is posted here:
> 
> ==================================
> 
> ...


Thanks, so invoice is about $69k. The deal I am currently at is $1720 over that, so I will see if I can get the deal at $70k. Fair?


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## LKBimm100 (Nov 4, 2015)

This thread hasn't been updated in awhile. Would this calculation still apply for 2020 models coming out this year, in 2nd half of 2019?



tim330i said:


> Staring with model year (MY) 2017 BMW is changing how invoice pricing and dealer compensation works.
> 
> *BMW US Invoice Pricing calculation*
> Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets) multiplied by 0.93
> ...


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## MauiSteve (Apr 3, 2019)

As to the question on if this applies to 2020 vehicles... I was given a vehicle inquiry report with the wholesale and MSRP columns side by side. It is exactly correct, but there is rounding for each line up or down in the wholesale column to the nearest whole 5 dollar amount. Training fee of $180 in wholesale column only. 

Under the columns there was a box that read: New Cars- PDI $82.60, AR $25, NDR $130, and Detail $150. This attained a subtotal of $387.60 which was added to the total wholesale to represent a total invoice cost.

Given some of the deals I read about in the lease cost threads, I'm surprised the profit margins are this thin. Hold back and incentives must be what keeps the sales staff paychecks afloat. And of course the service bay shows no mercy on their fees.


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## MauiSteve (Apr 3, 2019)

As to the question on if this applies to 2020 vehicles... I was given a vehicle inquiry report with the wholesale and MSRP columns side by side. It is exactly correct, but there is rounding for each line up or down in the wholesale column to the nearest whole 5 dollar amount. Training fee of $180 in wholesale column only. 

Under the columns there was a box that read: New Cars- PDI $82.60, AR $25, NDR $130, and Detail $150. This attained a subtotal of $387.60 which was added to the total wholesale to represent a total invoice cost.

Given some of the deals I read about in the lease cost threads, I'm surprised the profit margins are this thin. Hold back and incentives must be what keeps the sales staff paychecks afloat. And of course the service bay shows no mercy on their fees.


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