# 2nd HPDE down.



## jaydoc1 (Mar 20, 2005)

Well, BMW CCA HPDE number two was today and it taught me two very important lessons:

1) I don't need more horsepower than I have.

2) I MUST HAVE more horsepower!!


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## operknockity (Apr 19, 2002)

jaydoc1 said:


> Well, BMW CCA HPDE number two was today and it taught me two very important lessons:
> 
> 1) I don't need more horsepower than I have.
> 
> 2) I MUST HAVE more horsepower!!


Yup...... HPDE hook is firmly planted in you! Welcome to the addiction.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

You need more DEs, then you will figure out you NEED suspension mods more than HP.


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## jaydoc1 (Mar 20, 2005)

Pinecone said:


> You need more DEs, then you will figure out you NEED suspension mods more than HP.


  That was the #1 part of my original post. My 325 is a little tipsy in the really tight corners and tends to chatter the DCS a little in the tight stuff. So do I need more HP? No. But I would love to have it!


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

jaydoc1 said:


> That was the #1 part of my original post. My 325 is a little tipsy in the really tight corners and tends to chatter the DCS a little in the tight stuff. So do I need more HP? No. But I would love to have it!


Why are you running your car with DSC on on the track? 

I would suggest that you take some car control classes and drive with DSC off at your next DE. DSC is a crutch that the sooner you are rid of it, the better.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Stuka said:


> Why are you running your car with DSC on on the track?
> 
> I would suggest that you take some car control classes and drive with DSC off at your next DE. DSC is a crutch that the sooner you are rid of it, the better.


I understand for a seasoned HPDE veteran who's done like 3 schools this year like yourself, DSC may be a crutch you want to discard. But for someone who's only done 2 HPDEs and no Autocross/car control? Do whatever make you and your instructor comfortable. If you don't like to drive with the DSC off, leave it on. Do it after you're comfortable enough to try it with DSC off. If you can't drive without DSC, then OSB.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

The HACK said:


> I understand for a seasoned HPDE veteran who's done like 3 schools this year like yourself, DSC may be a crutch you want to discard. But for someone who's only done 2 HPDEs and no Autocross/car control? Do whatever make you and your instructor comfortable. If you don't like to drive with the DSC off, leave it on. Do it after you're comfortable enough to try it with DSC off. If you can't drive without DSC, then OSB.


Yeah, Mr. Button Willow dirt.  :angel:

I did tell him to sign up for some car control classes before the next DE, so there. :thumbup:


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Stuka said:


> Yeah, Mr. Button Willow dirt.  :angel:
> 
> I did tell him to sign up for some car control classes before the next DE, so there. :thumbup:


B*tch. I've been in the dirt less often this year than YOU'VE BEEN ON THE TRACK!


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

BTW if you are getting into the into the DSC, more power will only make this worse.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> I understand for a seasoned HPDE veteran who's done like 3 schools this year like yourself


That's seasoned? :eeps: :angel:


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## jaydoc1 (Mar 20, 2005)

Actually our instructors for the C and D groups insisted we kept the DSC on. The A and B group drivers with E46 M3s or better were also asked to keep their DSC on. I don't make the rules, I just enjoy the $140 track days RMBMWCCA gives me for following them. :thumbup:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

jaydoc1 said:


> Actually our instructors for the C and D groups insisted we kept the DSC on. The A and B group drivers with E46 M3s or better were also asked to keep their DSC on. I don't make the rules, I just enjoy the $140 track days RMBMWCCA gives me for following them. :thumbup:


The A and B's had to leave their DSC on!? :yikes:

I guess flushing $140 down the toilet is better than flushing $550, eh? :tsk:

It's just car control for crying out loud. :thumbdwn:


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## vaio76109 (Feb 3, 2005)

Stupid that they categorize groups by their cars and not the drivers.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

jaydoc1 said:


> Actually our instructors for the C and D groups insisted we kept the DSC on. The A and B group drivers with E46 M3s or better were also asked to keep their DSC on. I don't make the rules, I just enjoy the $140 track days RMBMWCCA gives me for following them. :thumbup:


I don't know what's big freaking deal with DSC anyway. Some prefer to learn it with DSC on, others prefer it off. Just do whatever makes you comfortable.

$140 is a bloody good deal for a _CCA _ event.

Was it at Pueblo Motorsports Park? I have a feeling I like Turns 6A,B, 7 and between 8 and 9. Are there elevation changes? Walk through the turns with us if you can.


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## vaio76109 (Feb 3, 2005)

Its hard to tell on paper but thats an akward line through turn 4. Looks like id rather dive deeper into that corner to the outside of the track, then turn in...hopefully giving me more speed out of the corner.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

vaio76109 said:


> Stupid thats they categories groups by their cars and not the drivers.


Say what now? :dunno:


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## vaio76109 (Feb 3, 2005)

doeboy said:


> Say what now? :dunno:


 Oh, I misread what he said. I thought he said people with an E46 M3 or better were in group A and B.

EDIT-categorize*...I think thats how you spell it.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> I don't know what's big freaking deal with DSC anyway. Some prefer to learn it with DSC on, others prefer it off. Just do whatever makes you comfortable.


The big deal is, we already have a generation of drivers raised on electronic nannys that can't even recover a simple oversteer. :thumbdwn:

Stick them in cars with lots of HP and let them loose on the track without some kind of car control skills is disaster waiting to happen, DSC or not.

DSC will only masks your mistakes making you think that you are the hot shot driver, and when the time comes for you to correct and catch the car, and you couldn't because you have never done it way back when the speed was low.

You now have a spectacular crash on the track. :yikes:

My issue is not about "comfort," it's about the fact that they are making people leaving it on, furthering the myth that DSC will save the day 100% of the time and end world hunger.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Oh f**kin' sh*t not this again. It's like Ground Hogs day here everyday the second you mention DSC in front of Stuka.  

Dude, look, if the organizers mandate that you run with DSC on, you F**KIN' BETTER RUN WITH DSC ON. Don't like it? It's not like anyone is forcing you to take BMWCCA schools. There are plenty of alternative schools (SpeedTrial USA? SpeedVenture? TrackQuest? TCRA? NASA? None of them will require you to drive with DSC.) that won't require you to leave PSM on your car.

As recent incendents clearly dictates, there are more and more rookie drivers with way too powerful cars (and I would consider the 330i too much power for most drivers) entering into this "sport." Organizers now must take measures to protect themselves as well as egotistical noobs from themselves. Don't be surprised if you see the West Coast BMWCCA implement the same rules starting next year.

What are you going to do then, boycott BMWCCA schools too?


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

The HACK said:


> As recent incendents clearly dictates, there are more and more rookie drivers with way too powerful cars (and I would consider the 330i too much power for most drivers) entering into this "sport." Organizers now must take measures to protect themselves as well as egotistical noobs from themselves. Don't be surprised if you see the West Coast BMWCCA implement the same rules starting next year.
> 
> What are you going to do then, boycott BMWCCA schools too?


Well, at the speeds that A and B's are carrying, DSC is not going to do jack for you. DSC is not going to save anyone in A abd B going into the bus stop too hot.

DSC is not going to save you from not settling the car before going on top of the magic mountain then sliding sideways down.

So what good is it in A and B?

And what about cars like the GT3's or any flavor of 993's that come without traction control? Are they now banned?

They already ask C's and D's to leave DSC on anyway.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> Disagree. Having DSC on allows you to be less smooth and get away with it. Having it off forces you to be smooth or the car lets you know, big time.
> 
> Having the DSC on smooths their inputs, it doesn't teach them to be smooth.


Not quite... if one is jerky with their steering inputs how does that smooth their inputs out? DSC doesn't slow the steering inputs for the driver. One should be able to tell when DSC is actually kicking in... if it's kicking in... it's because the driver is probably doing something they shouldn't be (to an extent). Especially for beginners, if it's kicking in all the time, they are not doing the right things. It doesn't mask their mistakes, it makes itself quite known when it does kick in usually. I guess some people can feel what the car is doing better than others. If the driver isn't changing their behavior to stop DSC from kicking in, then it's not really helping anything other than attempting to keep them on the pavement. If the driver uses its activation as a sign to them that maybe they didn't do something quite right, and needs to dial it back a notch or two, then it can actually be a great learning tool as well. IMO of course....


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

jaydoc1 said:


> p.s. Did I mention that I had a great time at my second DE?


Yes, we heard ya! :angel:


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> if it's kicking in... it's because the driver is probably doing something they shouldn't be (to an extent).


Well, since you used "to an extent"....

Here's my 2cents at Buttonwillow going CW with DSC on (<2.5s). I did an experiement with DSC on, DSC stage 1 and DSC off. I wanted to data log the corresponding g-loads, speed and RPM of the car under three setups.

For those not familiar with BW, the map is above. I went through Grapevine with full throttle. Yes, it can be done if you haven't already. The DSC system started kicking in that corner although I don't think I was doing anything wrong. I want to and I know I can carry more speed through that corner. Andy Chang and I always have this mouse and cat game on the track and I hate to lose my momentum through that corner due to DSC kicking in.

Turned the system completely off, and I can fly through that corner. So in this case, DSC is a hindrance.

Same with coming out of Star Mazda.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Well, since you used "to an extent"....
> 
> Here's my 2cents at Buttonwillow going CW with DSC on (<2.5s). I did an experiement with DSC on, DSC stage 1 and DSC off. I wanted to data log the corresponding g-loads, speed and RPM of the car under three setups.
> 
> ...


Not surprising... but you have a lot more track time than people who are just starting out. For these people, they should not be driving at those limits without having the basics down for driving at speed.

More advanced drivers who keep their cars on the edge would probably find it to be a hinderance, but people just starting out have no business getting that far to the limit so early on.

Not sure if this is also a factor but might your mods and increased power have some factor in this? Could it be throwing off the DSC? If the car was in stock form, could you do the turn the same way and get the exact same effect with DSC? Just something I'm wondering. You've done more experimenting and testing so you're more knowledgeable on that than myself I'd imagine.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> Not sure if this is also a factor but might your mods and increased power have some factor in this? Could it be throwing off the DSC? If the car was in stock form, could you do the turn the same way and get the exact same effect with DSC?


Mods? What mods? Don't know what you talking about...my car is as stock as the hamster from the pet shop.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Mods? What mods? Don't know what you talking about...my car is as stock as the hamster from the pet shop.


 :rofl:


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

SergioK said:


> I guess when you start instructing and see sh1t go down that directly affects your life and limb, you take a more cautionary stance when it comes to sitting in the right seat. Once you guys start sitting in the right seat and get a hotshoe big ego driver wanting to go balls out DSC/PSM off and foot to the floor sideways all the time cause it's fun and I like the slip angle cause it means I'm going fast, be my guest, have your student turn it off and be happy. See how productive you can be at teaching them car control when your rolling off into the weeds. I just don't trust other people as freely with my life and well being.


I have nothing against a brand new student, wihtou seeing their resume using DSC for at least the first session. But a CCA event, with driver resumes, with people running in A or B group, nope.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Only problem is, sometimes drivers in A or B are simply there because of enrollment, not skill level.


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

jaydoc1 said:


> Actually our instructors for the C and D groups insisted we kept the DSC on. The A and B group drivers with E46 M3s or better were also asked to keep their DSC on. I don't make the rules, I just enjoy the $140 track days RMBMWCCA gives me for following them. :thumbup:


Kinda lame. In my novice group, they let us turn off the DSC if we wished. I left it on during my first DE, mostly because I getting used to braking and following a line, and not really worried about cornering speed (that and it rained/snowed during half of my track time). During my second DE, I did turn it off after noticing that the car simply wouldn't accelerate out of the turns as the DSC light flickered. With it off, I was able to push a little more exiting corners; with it on, my instructor kept telling me to give it more gas. We had a few spinouts in our group, but nothing that hurt any of the cars. I will probably do a few mods this winter to reduce understeer, unless I get a dedicated track car to mod.

To paraphrase some famous driver: if you are in complete control, you're not going fast enough.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

SergioK said:


> Only problem is, sometimes drivers in A or B are simply there because of enrollment, not skill level.


And THAT is dangerous. Drivers should ONLY advance due to skill. With certain, published criteria.

If a driver is not safe without DSC, they should not be in B or A. These ARE supposed to be driver EDUCATION events, if no education is taking place, the whole thing is a sham. WHich could be one reason insurance companies are starting to exclude coverage for them.

This is also why I STRONGLY recommend a pro school first to actually learn some things, then on to track days for practice.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

It's only dangerous if people don't know what they are doing. Most everyone is quite slow on Saturday morning, but by the 2nd or 3rd session, if someone simply isn't able to hang with the group, it typically shows and something is done about it. Other times, because of logistics, that person, along with everyone else in the group, just has to cope. (You don't get off the freeway on your daily commute simply because there's traffic, do you? You simply deal with it.)


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

cwsqbm said:


> Kinda lame. In my novice group, they let us turn off the DSC if we wished. I left it on during my first DE, mostly because I getting used to braking and following a line, and not really worried about cornering speed (that and it rained/snowed during half of my track time). During my second DE, I did turn it off after noticing that the car simply wouldn't accelerate out of the turns as the DSC light flickered. With it off, I was able to push a little more exiting corners; with it on, my instructor kept telling me to give it more gas. We had a few spinouts in our group, but nothing that hurt any of the cars. I will probably do a few mods this winter to reduce understeer, unless I get a dedicated track car to mod.
> 
> To paraphrase some famous driver: if you are in complete control, you're not going fast enough.


 You should know you're in trouble when you start quoting famous drivers.

That famous driver you quoted is a RACECAR DRIVER. These HPDEs are educational events. If your goal is to become a racecar driver, what he said certainly applies. If your goal is to learn how to drive at a high level of efficiency and skill, have fun, and GO HOME IN ONE PIECE, you better make sure you're in complete control.

Spin outs are clear signs that drivers are starting to drive past their skills and clear signs that they need to be reigned in. Guys that spin out at West Coast schools usually get a full earful from chief instructors, and if they proceed to spin out again, be asked to leave the track. If multiple drivers are spinning out in an event, don't be surprised that someone isn't going home with their car. It's one thing to have 1 wheel off or 2 wheel off, spinning the car is a sign of several mistakes compounded by ego. I should know. I've spun my car twice in B already. I count my lucky stars every day knowing that both times the spins were at Buttonwillow, a place where there's plenty of run-offs but still run high risk of flipping the car.

My opinion, if you've only had two schools, and your car is seriously bogged down when you turn DSC off coming out of corners, possible it's not DSC's fault. You may have gone into the corner WRONG. Your steering wheel may either still bound and cocked when you applied gas, or you early apexed. What could have alleviated the DSC problem is to unwind the steering wheel, as you throttle out. You should not feel DSC kick in on the track if you properly unwind your wheel upon throttle application. And if you can't unwind the wheel because you will run out of track...Well, then you early apexed the turn.

It's not likely the car is holding you back now. It's more likely YOU holding your car back now.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

The HACK said:


> It's not likely the car is holding you back now. It's more likely YOU holding your car back now.


That's a really good way of looking it.


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## cchan (Sep 19, 2002)

SergioK said:


> Only problem is, sometimes drivers in A or B are simply there because of enrollment, not skill level.





Pinecone said:


> And THAT is dangerous. Drivers should ONLY advance due to skill. With certain, published criteria.


 I think what SergioK was getting at was that A/B/C/D aren't always an "absolute" designation in skill levels. If a given DE happens to have a lack of very experienced drivers and half the enrollees are first time novices, they obviously have to shift students up just to balance out the number of cars in different run groups since all the novices won't fit in D. ABCD grouping is presumably done on more of a *relative *basis than absolute skill levels.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

cchan said:


> I think what SergioK was getting at was that A/B/C/D aren't always an "absolute" designation in skill levels. If a given DE happens to have a lack of very experienced drivers and half the enrollees are first time novices, they obviously have to shift students up just to balance out the number of cars in different run groups since all the novices won't fit in D. ABCD grouping is presumably done on more of a *relative *basis than absolute skill levels.


 Which is very, VERY dangerous. Especially on tracks where advanced drivers drive a very different line from the newbies. For example, last time I drove in a group with inexperienced people in it (it wasn't supposed to have inexperienced people, but it did anyway), I saw a few of them almost crash out simply because they got fixated in their mirrors watching my line as I came up on them. Remember that my track car is a 323i. We aren't talking about E46 M3 banzai syndrome (I've been there, too, and it's pretty boring being the fastest car by a large margin on track).

There is nothing more frightening for advanced AND unskilled drivers than having entirely unsuitable experience levels mixed.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

cchan said:


> I think what SergioK was getting at was that A/B/C/D aren't always an "absolute" designation in skill levels. If a given DE happens to have a lack of very experienced drivers and half the enrollees are first time novices, they obviously have to shift students up just to balance out the number of cars in different run groups since all the novices won't fit in D. ABCD grouping is presumably done on more of a *relative *basis than absolute skill levels.


Usually and only to an extent.  The last school I was at (Firebird Int'l near Phoenix AZ) we had a relatively small group, but the C and D groups were fairly well packed while A and B were fairly low counts... There were only 5 people in A and 8 people in B out of a total of 36 students (small enrollment this time I know).


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

doeboy said:


> Usually and only to an extent.  The last school I was at (Firebird Int'l near Phoenix AZ) we had a relatively small group, but the C and D groups were fairly well packed while A and B were fairly low counts... There were only 5 people in A and 8 people in B out of a total of 36 students (small enrollment this time I know).


how many events you been to this year? :yikes: you are going to sears next week right?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Jeff_DML said:


> how many events you been to this year? :yikes: you are going to sears next week right?


Yup... going to Sears Point...

How many events? Um.. I... er.... :eeps: 9.5? :eeps:


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Some of the SV events actually allow more advanced drivers in the novice groups _if and only if_ there are less than a certain number of novice drivers on the track. Usually towards the end of the day, the crowd in the novice group thins out.

So how do I look at this? I take it as a challenge and an opportunity to learn something: to observe how novice drivers behave under pressure and learn to anticipate what to do should that driver goes off the track. I am guilty of following an E46M3 too close and novice driver went into a wave of panic. Wiggly tail and dropped 2 wheels. Later on, when I passed him, he went off in another corner.

I know some of you will probably stoned me to death. But I see it as passing on the baton. When I was a novice, I hated people tailgating me at the track, forcing me to go off. But the upside is I turned that grudge into a valuable lesson well learned.



Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Which is very, VERY dangerous. Especially on tracks where advanced drivers drive a very different line from the newbies. For example, last time I drove in a group with inexperienced people in it (it wasn't supposed to have inexperienced people, but it did anyway), I saw a few of them almost crash out simply because they got fixated in their mirrors watching my line as I came up on them. Remember that my track car is a 323i. We aren't talking about E46 M3 banzai syndrome (I've been there, too, and it's pretty boring being the fastest car by a large margin on track).
> 
> There is nothing more frightening for advanced AND unskilled drivers than having entirely unsuitable experience levels mixed.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> When I was a novice, I hated people tailgating me at the track, forcing me to go off. But the upside is I turned that grudge into a valuable lesson well learned.


wow, what club ran those events? :yikes: I assume you mean you forced yourself off


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