# Feedback on Lease Deal - 2018 X1



## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

namelessman said:


> To OP, as others suggested, do consider board sponsor(e.g. Greg) and do courtesy delivery/PCD.


I definitely want to do PCD.

Two used to be sponsors, and two others were recommended to me. Just crickets for the most part...

I'll reach out to Greg.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

DDGator said:


> I'm not sure you are reading my comments in context. I am responding to non-specific comments like -- $600 per month is X5 territory, or an X1 should be $400 per month, or you should target 1% of MSRP.
> 
> The hyper specific $46,845 is the car I am looking at.
> 
> ...


You're getting your numbers right. In the early post where I got you to $472 it was, as you correctly point out, back of invoice to get there.

So, you have done the first part. You know the numbers cold.

Now it is time to go unicorn hunting -- find the dealer who, for whatever magical reasons, will get super-aggressive for you because moving the unit works in some way to get that dealer into a bonus.

I am NOT in any way saying the deal is out there. Just depends on timing, on how hard you are willing to work, how much you value your time, and, of course, what role, if any, a trade-in plays in your situation.

But I do think it is reasonable to reach out to BMW salespeople who post in this forum, tell them what you're shooting for, and give them an opportunity to tell you what they can or can't do for you.

And, of course, other brands besides BMW, are out there waiting for your call


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> You're getting your numbers right.


Thanks, '68! :thumbup:

I'm working on it.


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## Chiropractor (Jul 17, 2011)

DDGator said:


> Thanks, '68!
> 
> I'm working on it.


The shipping cost from California to Florida may offset any incentive. I've worked with Greg in the past. Good deals for sure. My last car however they needed me to ship my car to cali and also pay for the cali car to come to Texas. It was easier to deal locally. But also I agree with one of the other posters that stated get ur deal and force a local to match. If it doesn't then maybe the out of state dealer can split shipping cost with u

Sent from my SM-N950U using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Chiropractor said:


> The shipping cost from California to Florida may offset any incentive. I've worked with Greg in the past. Good deals for sure. My last car however they needed me to ship my car to cali and also pay for the cali car to come to Texas. It was easier to deal locally. But also I agree with one of the other posters that stated get ur deal and force a local to match. If it doesn't then maybe the out of state dealer can split shipping cost with u
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Bimmerfest mobile app


I want to have the car delivered at the Performance Center in Greenville, so shipping costs don't really matter.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Chiropractor said:


> I agree with one of the other posters that stated get ur deal and force a local to match.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Bimmerfest mobile app


Just a comment on this. While I agree that it is generally accepted to give a dealer the opportunity to match or beat the best firm offer one has, IMHO it is TOTALLY NOT OKAY to use the sponsors and CAs who help us out on this forum in that way.

It is really, really bad karma to PM a sponsor and say you are a 'Fester looking for a better deal than you've been able to find locally and then get their friendliest pricing _only_ with the intent of using that friendly price to go grind a local dealer.

Also, if one has any hope of getting a price match from the local dealer, that local dealer is gonna ask for confirmation of the low offer, which means the customer will need to say, "Oh yeah, this guy in California named X at Dealership Y gave me this quote. I'll email it to you so you know it's real." That's a sure way of biting the hand that feeds you.

If one asks a sponsor or participating CA for a very friendly deal, and such a deal is offered, then that means you're buying from the guy/gal who bent over to give you that offer or you're not buying at all. Period.

If, on the other hand, one contacts a sponsor just to ask what one should hope to pay for a certain BMW, and it's made clear that one is asking for those numbers to inform a local negotiation, then it's clear and it's up to the sponsor as to what transpires. But no games.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Just a comment on this. While I agree that it is generally accepted to give a dealer the opportunity to match or beat the best firm offer one has, IMHO it is TOTALLY NOT OKAY to use the sponsors and CAs who help us out on this forum in that way. .


Agree. :thumbup:


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

The plot thickens that you have acknowledge that you want a June 2018 PCD date. Being on the East coast you can lock in incentives/MF/residual 60 days out, exception is 90 days of using a West coast CA/Center. Shouldn't the X1 model year change to 2019 by June 2018? Being so far out might be a reason for your pricing difficulties. If you planning this far out, your only play is to agree on purchase price now and let the incentives/MF/residual price out April 2018. MF will probably rise by June 2018, and incentives are unknown as its now month-to-month/region specific.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

I understand the lock in on the financials and the changing incentives.

Funny that everyone gives me a different time frame to place this order. One CA told me to do it now! One said March. One said April.


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## pmc123 (Dec 3, 2006)

That's outrageous.

go have a look at lease hacking sites for tips.

People are getting Mercedes GLEs for less money without much effort.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

pmc123 said:


> That's outrageous.
> 
> go have a look at lease hacking sites for tips.
> 
> People are getting Mercedes GLEs for less money without much effort.


People keep saying this, but no one shows me numbers that work for these killer prices.

If you buy a $47k X-1 at invoice with $2,500 in incentive and no dealer fee (a deal that no one has offered me yet), I get $555 per month.

If you guys know how to get one more than $2,500 under invoice with no dealer fee, I'd like to know how.

Again, I don't mean to sound unappreciative, but I keep getting vague comments about how no one pays $550 a month for an X1 and I can't make that math work at all.

I'll look at the GLE for comparison, but I don't tend to like the Mercedes vibe.

Thanks again.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

DDGator said:


> Funny that everyone gives me a different time frame to place this order. One CA told me to do it now! One said March. One said April.


Here's some info:

*How does the BMW Performance Center determine and schedule customer delivery
dates?*

Customer delivery dates are determined by the production week of the ordered vehicle and are scheduled on a first come first serve basis. If the timing of the ordered vehicle permits, the customer's client advisor may contact the BMW Performance Center to discuss specific vehicle production weeks that can meet a customer's requested timeframe. Please note there are some black-out dates throughout the year due to holidays, driving school programs and events that utilize the facility

*Can a customer participate in both the BMW European Delivery program and the BMW
Performance Center Delivery program with the same ordered vehicle?*

Yes, currently a customer can participate in both the BMW European Delivery program and the BMW Performance Center Delivery program with the same ordered vehicle. Please note this is subject to change without notice based on delivery availability at the BMW Performance Center. Due to the uncertainty of shipping times and Custom's processing, a Performance Center Delivery date can not be assigned for European re-delivery vehicles until they have arrived in the US and have cleared both US Customs and the BMW VPC. Since European Delivery already provides a vehicle overview in Europe as part of their program, customers taking re-delivery at the Performance Center will not receive another overview session.

*Guidelines for determining delivery dates, based on the vehicle's production, are listed below.*

Please be aware that production changes, EPA/CARB holds for new models, shipping delays, repair holds, VDC Installed Accessories and PCD availability may affect this calculation.

German Built Vehicles

Delivery dates are scheduled a minimum of 8 weeks after completed production.
Customer must take delivery no later than 12 weeks after completed production.
South Carolina Built Vehicles

Delivery dates are scheduled a minimum of 2 weeks after completed production.
Customer must take delivery no later than 6 weeks after completed production.
European Re-Delivery Vehicles

These vehicles must arrive in the US and be processed by both US Customs and the BMW VDC before a delivery date can be determined.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> German Built Vehicles
> 
> Delivery dates are scheduled a minimum of 8 weeks after completed production.
> Customer must take delivery no later than 12 weeks after completed production.


So say a June 15 PCD. Back time 12 weeks and end of production has to be by March 15. So you need to order an go into production ASAP.

But, it says they can have a minimum of 8 weeks before PCD to schedule. Now you have gained a month. So April production.

Make sense?


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

MJBrown62 said:


> So say a June 15 PCD. Back time 12 weeks and end of production has to be by March 15. So you need to order an go into production ASAP.
> 
> But, it says they can have a minimum of 8 weeks before PCD to schedule. Now you have gained a month. So April production.
> 
> Make sense?


Yes! Thank you. Experienced CAs told me different, so its nice to have in writing. Thanks so much.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

DDGator said:


> ... If you guys know how to get one more than $2,500 under invoice with no dealer fee, I'd like to know how.


Me too.

Maybe one of those infamous SoCal high volume dealers ...


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## pmc123 (Dec 3, 2006)

DDGator said:


> People keep saying this, but no one shows me numbers that work for these killer prices.
> 
> If you buy a $47k X-1 at invoice with $2,500 in incentive and no dealer fee (a deal that no one has offered me yet), I get $555 per month.
> 
> ...


this is from October, the RV might be different now, but you get the idea:

https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/2017-bmw-x1-socal/23173


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

pmc123 said:


> this is from October, the RV might be different now, but you get the idea:
> 
> https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/2017-bmw-x1-socal/23173


See this is the problem ... it's $6000 less MSRP!

It's only comparable cuz it's an X1.

SMH


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> See this is the problem ... it's $6000 less MSRP!
> 
> It's only comparable cuz it's an X1.
> 
> SMH


Well, here in LaLa Land our many, many BMW Centers have to compete fiercely against the low-ball,back-of-invoice quotes that Internet Managers in the Pacific Northwest throw out left and right

And then there are the expert 'Festers who confidently opine that a $47,000 BMW should be leased for no more than $400, and that prospects should solicit quotes from CAs who participate in this forum so that local dealers can be ground down.

And we wonder why there are few participating BMW sales professionals left on this forum???

All kidding aside, the OP who started this thread is truly and honestly seeking an aggressive deal, an activity which many of us support. And he is adjusting to the new numbers, which are profoundly higher than his last BMW lease. And we are all scratching our heads, trying to find the value proposition in paying over $600/month to drive an X1 15,000 miles/year for 3 years. That's a high opportunity cost for a roundel on a car with a drive train very, very similar to a MINI Clubman or Countryman. :dunno:


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

MJBrown62 said:


> See this is the problem ... it's $6000 less MSRP!
> 
> It's only comparable cuz it's an X1.
> 
> SMH


(I am agreeing with you, and have stayed out of this discussion because it was obvious that the OP knows how to look at the numbers and calculate invoice, etc).

I havent even clicked the link, but. in general, each 1k more financed adds roughly 25-30 per month in payment, right? So if the MSRP is 6k more, lets assume that the amount financed is 5580 more (7%, so additional amount at invoice).

So, that means to compare this car payment and the OPs, to even get close, we need to add around $140 to whatever they are paying.

Taking a quick look at the first post in that link, we see that they had a payment of $484 quoted. Add the difference in the cars (as described above,) and the equivalent payment to that one on OPs car is 624 (for the same level deal).

ALSO, that post says RV on that quote was 61%. RV right NOW on a x1 is 59% on a 2018 for 10k miles. for 15k miles its 56%.

There are two things in play for OP..

1. OP is speccing out a highly specced X1. This is similar to my 2016 435 GC, which I am paying 628 a month for and is an excellent deal. It had an MSRP north of 64k which is extremely high for a 435 of that year, when most of them are in the low to mid 50s. On the surface it would seem my payment is outlandish, but to get it I had to do MSDs, and get base MF etc etc.

2. Doc fee in florida is absurd, and that alone would cause me to not buy there if I was taking PCD. California's doc fee is $80, so even if you get the exact same deal on a car in california vs florida, if florida's doc fee is 699-899 the car will cost about $20 a month more because of that.

OP, trust your eyes. You know how to calculate invoice, and you know what a good deal looks like . Ensure that you are not missing out on any incentives, and negotiate from there.

You can waste a bunch of time searching for a unicorn deal on an ordered car, which MIGHT be out there somewhere if someone needs to sell a car to hit their quotas, or you can calculate invoice, look at your incentives, and see what the market (various dealers) are quoting you on your fully specced out X1 and buy it when you feel comfortable.

You might look at an X3 to see if there is a sweet spot on the features and RVs to see if getting one of those might be similar priced. I have not checked but you know how to, so if you are interested, take a look.

On the "you could get alternate brand XXX for that price", that only matters if you were considering that car anyway, or dont care what you drive. What a MB is going for on a lease is irrelevant if one doesnt want it and is not going to buy / lease it.

To reduce your price much past where you are looking at, you will need to consider taking one off the lot, and you will likely not find one specced that highly on the lot.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

The Leasehacker referenced monthly payment residual is 61%, probably a 10,000/mile per year lease. OP is looking at 15,000/mile per year. I was under the assumption that the 1% of MRSP monthly payment was based on a 10k per year lease. Buy rate MF is the same at 0.00152, but OP has the MF marked up the max.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

For purposes of comparison, a very very nicely equipped Infiniti QX30 (not saying anything good or bad about that car, which is a re-skinned Mercedes) can be leased for around $400 plus tax with low drive-offs and their lease fee is $700.

There's the new Jaguar small SUV and the smaller Range Rovers, and the Alfa, and the small Lexus, not to mention, dare I say, the very solid Toyota Rav4.

And, for the record, in 2016, looking to replace my end-of-lease Range Rover, I went to the local BMW Center to look at 2017 X1's and X3's and ended up ordering a very fully kitted MINI Clubman S All4, which, with tax, is south of $400/month for 10,000 miles/3years. Having enjoyed a series of high line Euro performance cars over the years, we are having more fun tossing this little MINI around than I ever imagined possible. Our Jags are almost never driven anymore, because the little Missus always says, "Let's take the Clubby."

World of choices at the $400/month price point. Maybe not much to choose from in the way of a BMW, but a world of choices..... choose wisely. And if it has to be a BMW, don't overpay!! Whatever that magic number is...


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## exl_ent_v6 (Aug 8, 2012)

jjrandorin said:


> 2. Doc fee in florida is absurd, and that alone would cause me to not buy there if I was taking PCD. California's doc fee is $80, so even if you get the exact same deal on a car in california vs florida, if florida's doc fee is 699-899 the car will cost about $20 a month more because of that.


where the heck do you get this from? that's wrong. There's no cap here so you can get ripped off, but I've always paid about $150 and that included transferring tags.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Well, here in LaLa Land our many, many BMW Centers have to compete fiercely against the low-ball,back-of-invoice quotes that Internet Managers in the Pacific Northwest throw out left and right


LOL, touche!



1968BMW2800 said:


> And then there are the expert 'Festers who confidently opine that a $47,000 BMW should be leased for no more than $400...


This is the bane of my existence in Internet sales. Can't count how many, "Well, my cousin got the same car for $100 less a month," comments I get from clients, but either they can't dig up the details or the details are easy to show why the deal is different (residual/miles needed, money factor, incentives, etc.) I sometimes tell people, "Fantastic! Just send me a copy of cousin Vinny's contract and I will see if I can match it. Oh, he 'can't find it?' That's unfortunate..."



1968BMW2800 said:


> All kidding aside, the OP who started this thread is truly and honestly seeking an aggressive deal, an activity which many of us support. And he is adjusting to the new numbers, which are profoundly higher than his last BMW lease. And we are all scratching our heads, trying to find the value proposition in paying over $600/month to drive an X1 15,000 miles/year for 3 years. That's a high opportunity cost for a roundel on a car with a drive train very, very similar to a MINI Clubman or Countryman. :dunno:


It's all perspective. Would I prefer the BMW Countryman (lol) to a Subaru Outback? Absolutely. And I owned and sold Subarus. Especially if I'm driving that many miles a year (which I am, at 18,500 annually).


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

An other route is swapalease, there are a few 2017 X1's listed for under $400/month with approx 1,000 miles per month.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> LOL, touche!
> 
> This is the bane of my existence in Internet sales. Can't count how many, "Well, my cousin got the same car for $100 less a month," comments I get from clients, but either they can't dig up the details or the details are easy to show why the deal is different (residual/miles needed, money factor, incentives, etc.) I sometimes tell people, "Fantastic! Just send me a copy of cousin Vinny's contract and I will see if I can match it. Oh, he 'can't find it?' That's unfortunate..."
> 
> It's all perspective. Would I prefer the BMW Countryman (lol) to a Subaru Outback? Absolutely.


:thumbup:

If BMW is able to deliver all the X1's and X3's at a higher price point, then, indeed, the market is supporting those higher prices.

The OP started at about $740/month, which, I think, we all feel is way high for a $47K X1. Really difficult to find value there. Since this is a PCD deal, I'm betting even an Internet Manager in the greater Seattle area can beat $740/month on a PCD. Or maybe a CA from Northern California -- certainly a manager from Glendale....:angel:

As the thread has unfolded, OP is now calculating around $550 for a super-aggressive deal given current incentives, which is about $6,800 less over the life of a 36 month lease than where he started with the first quote he was offered from his local dealer. But, to get to $550, OP is at invoice and is including $2.5K in incentives.

So, BMW seems to be saying that around $600/month for a 15,000 mile/year lease is an aggressive deal. If customers agree, then it will be $600. If customers hold onto their wallets and won't pay that much for an X1, then, if history tells us anything, factory support will increase.

I think many of the BMW models are wonderful cars and still retain qualities that are difficult to find in other brands. At what price? Well, not $750/month for an X1. At least not for me.YMMV


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

exl_ent_v6 said:


> where the heck do you get this from? that's wrong. There's no cap here so you can get ripped off, but I've always paid about $150 and that included transferring tags.


There are multiple people that have told us that the "typical" florida doc fee is 699-899, and even the previous florida sponsor dealer used to charge that 699 doc fee (but I heard he tried to make it work by lowering the price of the car some to match).

So, Maybe thats a south florida thing? I dont know, because I dont live there, but I have helped enough people with florida quotes and seen 699-899 doc fees to feel comfortable saying that it is not unusual at all for a florida dealer to put that on there. Also, just to make sure we are talking apples to apples, the DOC fee has nothing (zip) to do with tag fee or registration.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> And then there are the expert 'Festers who confidently opine that a $47,000 BMW should be leased for no more than $400, and that prospects should solicit quotes from CAs who participate in this forum so that local dealers can be ground down.


One observation is at times the spatial(location) and temporal(time) discrepancies cause much confusion and disagreement, as CAs and festers alike hotly debate deals that were/are/will be from different times and different spaces.

E.g. 1% MSRP for monthly on 3-year lease is quoted a lot throughout the years, but dependent on prevailing market conditions, that 1% can be too low or too high.

Buyers and sellers alike need to adjust to prevailing market conditions.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> One observation is at times the spatial(location) and temporal(time) discrepancies cause much confusion and disagreement, as CAs and festers alike hotly debate deals that were/are/will be from different times and different spaces.
> 
> E.g. 1% MSRP for monthly on 3-year lease is quoted a lot throughout the years, but dependent on prevailing market conditions, that 1% can be too low or too high.
> 
> Buyers and sellers alike need to adjust to prevailing market conditions.


_Deep stuff_, Namelessman!

Only way to figure out what the current time and space really is would be, it seems to me, to keep testing the bottom in whatever ways, using whatever negotiating skills, one has. With _courtesy_, of course, always.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

This last bit has been very helpful. I don't feel like I am "missing" anything -- the numbers are what they are, and sub-invoice deals are not falling out of trees...

Ordering a loaded X1 that is exactly what I want is clearly not the best way to get a deal. On the other hand, I get exactly the unicorn car that I want. I'll have to see if its worth the premium.

I looked at the MB GLA and the Infiniti QX-30. They are much more like what the E84 was--more hot hatch than small SUV. I'm not sure they are for me.

Thanks, all. I'll update when I make a decision and may or may not reveal the terms of any deal struck!


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

jjrandorin said:


> There are multiple people that have told us that the "typical" florida doc fee is 699-899, and even the previous florida sponsor dealer used to charge that 699 doc fee (but I heard he tried to make it work by lowering the price of the car some to match).
> 
> So, Maybe thats a south florida thing? I dont know, because I dont live there, but I have helped enough people with florida quotes and seen 699-899 doc fees to feel comfortable saying that it is not unusual at all for a florida dealer to put that on there. Also, just to make sure we are talking apples to apples, the DOC fee has nothing (zip) to do with tag fee or registration.


FL dealers can call it different things. Doc fee, FL dealer fee, garbage fee

Dont get trapped in his nonsense....


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> _Deep stuff_, Namelessman!
> 
> Only way to figure out what the current time and space really is would be, it seems to me, to keep testing the bottom in whatever ways, using whatever negotiating skills, one has. With _courtesy_, of course, always.


Information is king, e.g. the coveted playbook! 

Courtesy is usually assumed, but not mandatory. E.g. the not-too-courteous CAs/SMs (in person/email/phone) may need to hit the trend lines that day/week/month, so do pay attention.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

ard said:


> FL dealers can call it different things. Doc fee, FL dealer fee, garbage fee
> 
> Dont get trapped in his nonsense....


Speaking of trapped -- off topic, but are you getting any snow up there ard??

Well, maybe snow is on-topic


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

DDGator said:


> This last bit has been very helpful. I don't feel like I am "missing" anything -- the numbers are what they are, and sub-invoice deals are not falling out of trees...
> 
> Ordering a loaded X1 that is exactly what I want is clearly not the best way to get a deal. On the other hand, I get exactly the unicorn car that I want. I'll have to see if its worth the premium.
> 
> ...


Best of luck to you. Gotta drive what you love! Life is too short not to, if you can.

I believe, if you quietly tap into the resources of participating BMW professionals, you will find the best options for your situation. Maybe not at $400, but there's a solid deal waiting for you.

Do let us know how it all works out -- even if your final numbers are too good to tell about in a public forum. Just tell us you scored. :thumbup:


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Information is king, e.g. the coveted playbook!
> 
> Courtesy is usually assumed, but not mandatory. E.g. the not-too-courteous CAs/SMs (in person/email/phone) may need to hit the trend lines that day/week/month, so do pay attention.


@Namelessman don't you know the Playbook is a very sore subject around here, as the posting apparently drove away the 0.5% monthly lease payment of MRSP deals that sponsor CA's were handing out like candy on Halloween?:thumbup:

The 7 series is possible to receive sub-invoice pricing exclusive of incentives from the start due to trunk money and significant amount of AVP. Problem with the lower priced MRSP models ($30,000 - $50,000) is the AVP anywhere from $1,500 to $2,500 which goes to pay the overhead bills/back office/mortgage/financing of BMW NA required renovations.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> ... financing of BMW NA required renovations.


Oh lordy lets not go there. For many dealers the "future retail" renovations are not what we need ...

Did I say that out loud? I bet I'll get a nastygram for that.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> Oh lordy lets not go there. For many dealers the "future retail" renovations are not what we need ...
> 
> Did I say that out loud? I bet I'll get a nastygram for that.


Future retail renovation, as in remodeled showroom floors?

Local dealers of all makes are doing lots of those. E.g. The local Audi sales said Audi these days require specific lighting, product placements(distances, alignments), layout of main office/sales office/wait areas, ceiling heights, etc, etc.

There appears to be lots of research and studies going into this area.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> Future retail renovation, as in remodeled showroom floors?
> 
> Local dealers of all makes are doing lots of those. E.g. The local Audi sales said Audi these days require specific lighting, product placements(distances, alignments), layout of main office/sales office/wait areas, ceiling heights, etc, etc.
> 
> There appears to be lots of research and studies going into this area.


BMW Centers can have 20% of the bonus AVP withheld if brand value minnium standards are not adhered to otherwise known as CORA (Center Operating Requirements Addendum). Centers have to adhere to BMW Corporate Identity Facility Standards.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

February 2018 sales numbers were released today and X1 sales up almost 40%. If I was a GM/SM of Center why discount a vehicle that is selling so well? Apparently, the customer is receptive to a higher X1 lease monthly price which is driving the sales numbers.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Future retail renovation, as in remodeled showroom floors?


Yep


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> February 2018 sales numbers were released today and X1 sales up almost 40%. If I was a GM/SM of Center why discount a vehicle that is selling so well? Apparently, the customer is receptive to a higher X1 lease monthly price which is driving the sales numbers.


Might be selling well because it's heavily discounted.

and it's a significant % of service loaner cars too. Those count too.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> Might be selling well because it's heavily discounted.
> 
> and it's a significant % of service loaner cars too. Those count too.


Discounted meaning the current incentives based off MRSP.

The AMT/Service loaners are being retired and 'punched' as a vehicle sale to a customer? Didn't BMW NA prohibit Centers from punching vehicles for the AMT/Service fleet late 2016 as sold vehicles?

Yesterday, I was given a ride from the local dealership to the airport in a X1 and the driver making a turn at 25mph hit a curb on the right front tire. The abuse the servive vehicles receive, at least it's not a retired PC vehicle for sale.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> BMW Centers can have 20% of the bonus AVP withheld if brand value minnium standards are not adhered to otherwise known as CORA (Center Operating Requirements Addendum). Centers have to adhere to BMW Corporate Identity Facility Standards.


Right on but it's more than just the CORA requirements for brand imaging. BMW has done research on the consumer demographics and have determined what they feel meets a new approach to sales.

Product Geniuses are just an example of the elements of "future retail."

It's basically what do millenials respond to.

" ... a global initiative called Future Retail which mimics the philosophy behind the popular Apple Stores - highly digitized, minimalistic and cool looking.

BMW aims to create a similar environment for its 339 U.S. dealers by 2019 with a total cost of $500 million."


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> Discounted meaning the current incentives based off MRSP.
> 
> The AMT/Service loaners are being retired and 'punched' as a vehicle sale to a customer? Didn't BMW NA prohibit Centers from punching vehicles for the AMT/Service fleet late 2016 as sold vehicles?
> 
> Yesterday, I was given a ride from the local dealership to the airport in a X1 and the driver making a turn at 25mph hit a curb on the right front tire. The abuse the servive vehicles receive, at least it's not a retired PC vehicle for sale.


Yes, trick-effing has been eliminated. But I'm talking about the actual "punching" of cars to go into service loaner duty. As they are registered to the dealer, BMWNA gets to count them in their sales data.

LOL on the PC vehicles and any other BMWNA car. I like to write down the VINs of the ride and drive cars just to see where they end up.

This truly is the "I have no life" sign ....


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> Right on but it's more than just the CORA requirements for brand imaging. BMW has done research on the consumer demographics and have determined what they feel meets a new approach to sales.
> 
> Product Geniuses are just an example of the elements of "future retail."
> 
> ...


But this business model is opposite of the Lexus model of one person, as now a potential BMW customer has interaction with a genius, CA, possibly SM, F&I, then product delivery specialist- that's 5 different people.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> But this business model is opposite of the Lexus model of one person, as now a potential BMW customer has interaction with a genius, CA, possibly SM, F&I, then product delivery specialist- that's 5 different people.


Yes, it will be interesting to see how each model goes.

I've said this before, but I think if BMW had its druthers they would opt for Geniuses to a Sales Manager/Finance Manager combined position.

Ultimately walk in traffic on a weekend is too much to not have people on the floor to help. It's cheaper with the current model to have commission-based sales people do that than to have investment in 20+ geniuses at a fixed expense.

But, who knows what the future holds....


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> Yes, it will be interesting to see how each model goes.
> 
> I've said this before, but I think if BMW had its druthers they would opt for Geniuses to a Sales Manager/Finance Manager combined position.
> 
> ...


The current AVP structure requires 1 genius per 400 SPG, at least this was as of 2016. With the commission based sales, who's going to hold their ground and not budge off of MRSP then? As the NFL playoff slogan from the past, "Who want's it more?" CA or customer, priority 1 vehicle the CA has the edge/upper hand.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Ibiza said:


> The current AVP structure requires 1 genius per 400 SPG, at least this was as of 2016. With the commission based sales, who's going to hold their ground and not budge off of MRSP then? As the NFL playoff slogan from the past, "Who want's it more?" CA or customer, priority 1 vehicle the CA has the edge/upper hand.


BMW NA really doesn't care about a CA or dealer holding ground. They want us to move the metal. And get great "voice of the customer" scores (the new CSI.) Be higher up in JD Powers initial satisfaction surveys. That's what BMW wants.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> BMW NA really doesn't care about a CA or dealer holding ground. They want us to move the metal. And get great "voice of the customer" scores (the new CSI.) Be higher up in JD Powers initial satisfaction surveys. That's what BMW wants.


I was in an Apple store at Newport Beach Fashion Island last month. My first visit to an Apple store -- had to get an iphone battery replaced. The decor and "feel" of the place did not appeal to me at all for the very reasons the whole Apple thing is so successful. All these trendy-nerd millennials, being very efficient and friendly, and somewhat patient with us old geezers who were in the store on a weekday at 11AM. The guy who helped me said it's a zoo on weekends -- I assume that's when their target demographic shows up.

But, I must say, the customer experience with my battery issue was outstanding from start to finish. I called an 800 number, had a bit of a wait on hold (they gave me my choice of music-on-hold) and a cloyingly upbeat, chipper customer service person was able to run some tests on my phone during the call, schedule the battery replacement, and everything went like clockwork from there, with lots of email and text updates and follow-up. They have researched and tweaked every possible aspect of the customer experience -- nothing spontaneous or human about it. Just friendly and efficient, in a disembodied sort of way.

So, BMW, that may be your future. Hard surfaces, trendy furnishings, dudes with neck beards and weird-fitting pants who look like they just rolled out of bed but are efficient and have big brains full of product knowledge. With every aspect of the customer experience tightly managed down to the last detail. No wheeling or dealing -- just here to take your order on this high-priced, non-discounted,premium product that is the coolest thing on the market. Get one and show all your friends.

I'm gettin' too old.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> I was in an Apple store at Newport Beach Fashion Island last month. My first visit to an Apple store -- had to get an iphone battery replaced. The decor and "feel" of the place did not appeal to me at all for the very reasons the whole Apple thing is so successful. All these trendy-nerd millennials, being very efficient and friendly, and somewhat patient with us old geezers who were in the store on a weekday at 11AM. The guy who helped me said it's a zoo on weekends -- I assume that's when their target demographic shows up.
> 
> But, I must say, the customer experience with my battery issue was outstanding from start to finish. I called an 800 number, had a bit of a wait on hold (they gave me my choice of music-on-hold) and a cloyingly upbeat, chipper customer service person was able to run some tests on my phone during the call, schedule the battery replacement, and everything went like clockwork from there, with lots of email and text updates and follow-up. They have researched and tweaked every possible aspect of the customer experience -- nothing spontaneous or human about it. Just friendly and efficient, in a disembodied sort of way.
> 
> ...


I had a battery issue with my iPhone 6, went to an indi shop by work, $50 and 20 minutes later new battery.

I agree with that Apple has it processes down and it works, I like that when I make an appointment that I'm seen within 15 minutes of showing up and the people working there are very upbeat and friendly. There are many companies out there that can learn a thing or two from apple in the customer service area.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Eagle11 said:


> I had a battery issue with my iPhone 6, went to an indi shop by work, $50 and 20 minutes later new battery.
> 
> I agree with that Apple has it processes down and it works, I like that when I make an appointment that I'm seen within 15 minutes of showing up and the people working there are very upbeat and friendly. There are many companies out there that can learn a thing or two from apple in the customer service area.


But there is no discounting on Apple products from MRSP, customers aren't walking into a Apple store and requesting pricing starting at invoice. The superb customer service is baked into the Apple tax that Apple's products carry.

For example, I have a Apple Watch 3 Hermes edition, black watch band was starting to show signs of wear and tear. Took to the Hermes store in Paris and after sales customer service fixed the band on the spot, but I paid a premium for the watch at US MRSP, they even offered me a drink while I waited.

PS- Apple has reduced the price of replacement iPhone batteries to $29.


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## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> But there is no discounting on Apple products from MRSP, customers aren't walking into a Apple store and requesting pricing starting at invoice. The superb customer service is baked into the Apple tax that Apple's products carry.
> 
> PS- Apple has reduced the price of replacement iPhone batteries to $29.


Sometimes they have rare sales. I just ordered a new battery for my iPhone, and they have new batteries for $29. But, yes for the most part they have a strict MSRP sales policy, as do most high end designer brands. I say most, because even the most sought out brands like Chanel, Montblank jackets, Louis Vuitton etc have sales either private or public. My wife, a manager at Bloomingdales says people line up for hours on these sales. Sometimes 40% off. That's quite a bit on a $6000 handbag.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

socal59 said:


> My wife, a manager at Bloomingdales says people line up for hours on these sales. Sometimes 40% off. That?s quite a bit on a $6000 handbag.


I would like to know the profit margin on a $6,000 handbag. Must be AT LEAST $5,500, right?

Leaves a lot of room for discounts.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

DDGator said:


> I would like to know the profit margin on a $6,000 handbag. Must be AT LEAST $5,500, right?
> 
> Leaves a lot of room for discounts.


And that doesn't include the trunk money ... :angel:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

DDGator said:


> I would like to know the profit margin on a $6,000 handbag. Must be AT LEAST $5,500, right?
> 
> Leaves a lot of room for discounts.


From hints from other festers, the import price paid by BMWNA to BMWAG versus US MSRP has at least 40% margin, e.g. the import price of a US MSRP $50k car is $30k. The rest of the $20k possibly accounts for:

difference between MSRP and invoice paid by dealer
BMWNA/BMWFS operating margin
AVP, stairs step(sales quotas), incentives to dealers
incentives to customers
margin to cover lease end write off.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

namelessman;12378082[B said:


> ]From hints from other festers, the import price paid by BMWNA to BMWAG versus US MSRP has at least 40% margin, e.g. the import price of a US MSRP $50k car is $30k. [/B] The rest of the $20k possibly accounts for:
> 
> difference between MSRP and invoice paid by dealer
> BMWNA/BMWFS operating margin
> ...


You have said this quite a few times here, but I cant find where you are referencing this, or who referenced it. Do you still have links to these statements? I would like to read the context in which they were said, and like I said I cant find them and dont remember. where they might be.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> You have said this quite a few times here, but I cant find where you are referencing this, or who referenced it. Do you still have links to these statements? I would like to read the context in which they were said, and like I said I cant find them and dont remember. where they might be.


My recollection was a post(either on this or the other forum) that showed some form of import doc that was left in the car when it was delivered.

It is possible the thread/posts were cleansed/redacted per their proprietary and confidential attributes.

The breakdown of MSRP to invoice, AVP, customer incentives, etc, etc are known, the rest(BMWNA/BMWFS margin, padding for lease end writeoff, ec, etc) are my guesstimates.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

namelessman said:


> My recollection was a post(either on this or the other forum) that showed some form of import doc that was left in the car when it was delivered.
> 
> It is possible the thread/posts were cleansed/redacted per their proprietary and confidential attributes.
> 
> The breakdown of MSRP to invoice, AVP, customer incentives, etc, etc are known, the rest(BMWNA/BMWFS margin, padding for lease end writeoff, ec, etc) are my guesstimates.


Ok.

Thanks for answering.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

BMW AG reports the operating margin as 10%. 40% import mark-up seems high by NA. It was my understanding that the 5% AVP is given back by the dealership to NA for ED, thus the 5% MRSP discount and 'free' allocation for ED exclusive of M vehicles. 

Wonder what the US CBP import tax is then? A lot of BMW NA 'employees' are contracted through other companies, such as a majority of the Performance Center staff. 

'Festers that have done ED could file a Freedom of Information Act request with the US Treasury Dept for a copy of the import invoice. Non ED could also request the documents to see the import mark-up. It's a not a national secret, so BMW NA has no holding to object the release.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> BMW AG reports the operating margin as 10%. 40% import mark-up seems high by NA. It was my understanding that the 5% AVP is given back by the dealership to NA for ED, thus the 5% MRSP discount and 'free' allocation for ED exclusive of M vehicles.
> 
> Wonder what the US CBP import tax is then? A lot of BMW NA 'employees' are contracted through other companies, such as a majority of the Performance Center staff.
> 
> 'Festers that have done ED could file a Freedom of Information Act request with the US Treasury Dept for a copy of the import invoice. Non ED could also request the documents to see the import mark-up. It's a not a national secret, so BMW NA has no holding to object the release.


A import doc would be quite interesting, it is like a rosetta stone to decode the BMW price structure. 

My guess is the import price already accounts for BMWAG's 8-10% margin, so as far as BMWAG is concerned, BMWNA/BMWFS is its own P&L to move metal for BMWAG.

The 40% does not seem high, e.g.

15-20% off MSRP(customer and dealer incentives, plus dealer profit)
5% AVP
10% BMWNA/BMWFS operational cost(personnel, training, drive events, advertisements)
10% stair step, lease end loss, currency/interest fluctuation


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

DDGator said:


> I would like to know the profit margin on a $6,000 handbag. Must be AT LEAST $5,500, right?
> 
> Leaves a lot of room for discounts.


So DD....did you get your deal yet? Or a deal that you are satisfied with and is reasonably attainable?

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

DDGator said:


> Am I missing something? I thought the X1 was only being built in Germany and Holland -- not Spartanburg? :dunno:


He was talking about the x3


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Ibiza said:


> Haven't these $1,000 vouchers been a 50:50 split between BMW NA and Center contribution recently? If Center is discounting to their limit already, then it could well be only a $500 reduction coming from NA.


Very true. However, it can't hurt for ddgator to get the voucher and then go to the dealer with the 577 offer and say "Here is my 1000 voucher. If you apply that to my deal then we are at 547 a month and I will happily buy the car for that payment."The dealer might do it....

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

bmw325 said:


> Not even saying it needs full leather door panels. On other bmws I've had, even the lower door panels are made of matte finish soft touch plastic. And there are no sharp injection mold Seams that could be felt on the inner portion (which was also felt lined on ny e92 and f10). The lower door panels on the f25 wouldn't even pass muster at FCA.
> 
> Didn't understand your second point? Were you saying that there are known quality issues at Spartanburg that bmw germany is trying to address? If anything, my guess is the local suppliers aren't as good. Assembly quality seems acceptable. Mostly the plastic that's not up to par. Turn signal stalks also have an unpleasant seam that can be felt on the underside - never had that before on a bmw


All F15/F16/F85/F86 for the German market upon off loading at Bremerhaven, DE are transported to Werk Dingolfing for additional quality inspections prior to Center delivery. A BMW AG employee, who will remain anonymous, told me this privately during my September 2017 ED trip- it is not a Welt employee nor did the conversation occur at the Welt.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Very true. However, it can't hurt for ddgator to get the voucher and then go to the dealer with the 577 offer and say "Here is my 1000 voucher. If you apply that to my deal then we are at 547 a month and I will happily buy the car for that payment". The dealer might do it....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Agree it can't hurt to try, but would only apply to an in-stock vehicle if I was willing to go that route. Here is the fine print:

*$1,000 offer valid on eligible vehicles test-driven March 9th, 2018 through March 12th, 2018 and delivered and retailed March 9th 2018 through May 31st, 2018. Eligible models include most new 2017 and 2018 BMWs, ineligible vehicles include any 2016 BMW, M2 Coupe, MINI vehicles and BMW CPO/CPO Elite vehicles. This offer cannot be used for previously ordered or previously delivered vehicles and is only valid on delivery of in-stock vehicles. Offer valid to the First-Ever X2 March Test Drive Sales Event participants and their family members residing within the same household. Offer valid on final negotiated price and may be combined with other applicable BMW offers that are available at the time of purchase. It may not be used toward tax, title, destination and delivery charges. Only one redemption code per vehicle may be used. Only valid at participating dealers in AL, FL, GA, NC, OK, SC, TX. Please see your participating BMW Center for complete program details. ©2018 BMW of North America, LLC. The BMW name, model names and logo are registered trademarks.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Very true. However, it can't hurt for ddgator to get the voucher and then go to the dealer with the 577 offer and say "Here is my 1000 voucher. If you apply that to my deal then we are at 547 a month and I will happily buy the car for that payment". The dealer might do it....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


:thumbup:

Still a lot to pay for an X1, IMHO. Not saying it isn't a fair price, given the MSRP of a loaded car, and the residual and the increasing MF, but, over $500/month plus drive offs -- given what else is out there at that price point, you gotta really be lovin' the X1. A lot.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DDGator said:


> Agree it can't hurt to try, but would only apply to an in-stock vehicle if I was willing to go that route. Here is the fine print:
> 
> *$1,000 offer valid on eligible vehicles test-driven March 9th, 2018 through March 12th, 2018 and delivered and retailed March 9th 2018 through May 31st, 2018. Eligible models include most new 2017 and 2018 BMWs, ineligible vehicles include any 2016 BMW, M2 Coupe, MINI vehicles and BMW CPO/CPO Elite vehicles. This offer cannot be used for previously ordered or previously delivered vehicles and is only valid on delivery of in-stock vehicles. Offer valid to the First-Ever X2 March Test Drive Sales Event participants and their family members residing within the same household. Offer valid on final negotiated price and may be combined with other applicable BMW offers that are available at the time of purchase. It may not be used toward tax, title, destination and delivery charges. Only one redemption code per vehicle may be used. Only valid at participating dealers in AL, FL, GA, NC, OK, SC, TX. Please see your participating BMW Center for complete program details. 2018 BMW of North America, LLC. The BMW name, model names and logo are registered trademarks.


Easy way around the 'ordered' status if going for local Center pick-up would be for the CA to remove the Priority 1 status, but unfortunately this can't be done for PCD- which is Priority 9- Performance Center status.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

1968BMW2800 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Still a lot to pay for an X1, IMHO. Not saying it isn't a fair price, given the MSRP of a loaded car, and the residual and the increasing MF, but, over $500/month plus drive offs -- given what else is out there at that price point, you gotta really be lovin' the X1. A lot.


Check out this deal for a 2016 M3 at $650 per month.

Early lease return, 2016 F80 M3
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1253232


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Still a lot to pay for an X1, IMHO. Not saying it isn't a fair price, given the MSRP of a loaded car, and the residual and the increasing MF, but, over $500/month plus drive offs -- given what else is out there at that price point, you gotta really be lovin' the X1. A lot.


This is what people keep saying, but I'm curious -- what do you think is out there that is better that is significantly cheaper? I say significantly because I'm not going to drive a car I don't like as much over $25-$50 a month.

I summed up my thoughts on a lot of the other cars above. I'm open to suggestions. I might consider a Mini Countryman, I suppose -- not sure yet if its much cheaper. The lease prices predicted on the Mini website are much higher than traditional financing. Maybe there is a bug in their calculations.

I think to save significant money I would need to look at a Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4, and that's not really what I want.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

DDGator said:


> This is what people keep saying, but I'm curious -- what do you think is out there that is better that is significantly cheaper? I say significantly because I'm not going to drive a car I don't like as much over $25-$50 a month.
> 
> I summed up my thoughts on a lot of the other cars above. I'm open to suggestions. I might consider a Mini Countryman, I suppose -- not sure yet if its much cheaper. The lease prices predicted on the Mini website are much higher than traditional financing. Maybe there is a bug in their calculations.
> 
> I think to save significant money I would need to look at a Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4, and that's not really what I want.


I hear ya. I always say that life is too short not to drive what you love. If you've driven the other brands and they don't do it for you, then there you are. It's a compliment to BMW that their offering is so compelling.

Unless there is a continuing upsurge in new car sales over the next 60 days, one might be looking at better offers in the near future. But maybe not on the X1 you seek.

I have been there, as have others. Great deals offered on cars I didn't want and then deciding if I was willing to pay a premium to drive exactly what I sought. I kept digging until I got a deal I could live with on what I wanted to drive. Sometimes it takes some work. But BMW appears to be tightening the reins, based on your experience thus far.

But, yes, with drive-offs and annual tags, over $600/month for an X1 does seem like a premium to drive one. And, when you factor in everything, that's the price point you're looking at. Sobering.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Sobering.


Definitely. And I realize I am making it worse by being potentially inflexible on wanting to order and do PCD.

There probably are $400/mo. lease deals possible on the right X1 sitting on the lot.

I would have to forego ordering now and rolls the dice in June to see what is available and what the deals might be. If the deal was not SIGNIFCANTLY better I would probably be sad!


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

And for what its worth... my local Center is stymied as to how to get to $577/mo. on that car...

Maybe they need to look in the trunk! :rofl:


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

DDGator said:


> This is what people keep saying, but I'm curious -- what do you think is out there that is better that is significantly cheaper? I say significantly because I'm not going to drive a car I don't like as much over $25-$50 a month.
> 
> I summed up my thoughts on a lot of the other cars above. I'm open to suggestions. I might consider a Mini Countryman, I suppose -- not sure yet if its much cheaper. The lease prices predicted on the Mini website are much higher than traditional financing. Maybe there is a bug in their calculations.
> 
> I think to save significant money I would need to look at a Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4, and that's not really what I want.


Did you try pricing out/ looking for a17 (or possibly even 18) x3 ? Didn't see it in your post about other cars you considered. I could swear that I calculated a 0 down lease on an 18 x3 to be about 1% of msrp (so mid 500s for a mid 50s msrp) . But I may have included some additional incentives (like x3 lotalty). Worth a shot perhaps...(unless you just don't like the x3)

Another suggestion is a 3 series wagon- I've seen really good deals on those. Similar interior space as an x1 but you lose the higher ride height

Having driven both, I wouldn't consider a countryman. Feels much less refined /we'll put together than the x1


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

bmw325 said:


> Did you try pricing out/ looking for a17 (or possibly even 18) x3 ? Didn***8217;t see it in your post about other cars you considered. I could swear that I calculated a 0 down lease on an 18 x3 to be about 1% of msrp (so mid 500s for a mid 50s msrp) . But I may have included some additional incentives (like x3 lotalty). Worth a shot perhaps...(unless you just don***8217;t like the x3)
> 
> Another suggestion is a 3 series wagon- I***8217;ve seen really good deals on those. Similar interior space as an x1 but you lose the higher ride height


I do like the X3 and I'm going to look into that. It seems counter-intuitive that an X3 at a significantly higher price could be more in the price range I want, but the magic of a higher residual and a model specific promotion could make a difference.

UPDATE: It appears the residuals are the same on a 2018 X3 and there is actually $500 less incentives... So I am guessing that is not going to help on an ordered car.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

DDGator said:


> Agree it can't hurt to try, but would only apply to an in-stock vehicle if I was willing to go that route. Here is the fine print:
> 
> *$1,000 offer valid on eligible vehicles test-driven March 9th, 2018 through March 12th, 2018 and delivered and retailed March 9th 2018 through May 31st, 2018. Eligible models include most new 2017 and 2018 BMWs, ineligible vehicles include any 2016 BMW, M2 Coupe, MINI vehicles and BMW CPO/CPO Elite vehicles. This offer cannot be used for previously ordered or previously delivered vehicles and is only valid on delivery of in-stock vehicles. Offer valid to the First-Ever X2 March Test Drive Sales Event participants and their family members residing within the same household. Offer valid on final negotiated price and may be combined with other applicable BMW offers that are available at the time of purchase. It may not be used toward tax, title, destination and delivery charges. Only one redemption code per vehicle may be used. Only valid at participating dealers in AL, FL, GA, NC, OK, SC, TX. Please see your participating BMW Center for complete program details. 2018 BMW of North America, LLC. The BMW name, model names and logo are registered trademarks.


Technically, there is a way around the in-stock vehicle thing (or there used to be a way around it). Only a seasoned CA or fest sponsor is going to do this. FWIW, the former fest sponsor that I use did this for me a few times. Here is how it works, the CA places your order under his personal name as a priority one order. You get the voucher and then he sells you "his" car after it arrives and is placed into general stock. Obviously, this eliminates the possibility of doing PCD.....

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Technically, there is a way around the in-stock vehicle thing (or there used to be a way around it). Only a seasoned CA or fest sponsor is going to do this. FWIW, the former fest sponsor that I use did this for me a few times. Here is how it works, the CA places your order under his personal name as a priority one order. You get the voucher and then he sells you "his" car after it arrives and is placed into general stock. Obviously, this eliminates the possibility of doing PCD.....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


That is very interesting and makes perfect sense. All the little tricks... :thumbup:


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Technically, there is a way around the in-stock vehicle thing (or there used to be a way around it).


For some programs, they've caught on to this. They might require that the P1 car has to be sold to the person with the name at the time of the P1 order. If it gets changed, NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Again, not sure if this applies universally, but it's a rule out there, for some programs.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

MJBrown62 said:


> For some programs, they've caught on to this. They might require that the P1 car has to be sold to the person with the name at the time of the P1 order. If it gets changed, NO SOUP FOR YOU!
> 
> Again, not sure if this applies universally, but it's a rule out there, for some programs.


I am not surprised. That is why my comment to ddgator came with the disclaimer that this used to be something that could be done since I had my doubts it can still be done. Thanks for your input Mike.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm having a hard time finding anyone who wants to touch the deal mentioned above -- $0 down and $577 a month.

Best I can tell, that is about $1,500 under invoice with no dealer fee and base MF. I think that is the price of entry for what I am looking for -- i.e., placing an order on a 2018 for PCD.

My local Center wants $3,000 down to do that deal.

My real question now is whether it's worth it to me. Planning to drive a M-B GLC 300 today just for fun.

Side note --> Internet sales on luxury cars is broken. 1/2 the times I request an internet quote from a local dealer i get nothing other than an autoresponder email saying I will hear from someone. Then...mostly crickets. German cars seem to be the worst. I guess "cold leads" from the internet must not be the way most luxury cars are sold.


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## jillyjellyroll (Oct 4, 2005)

DDGator said:


> I'm having a hard time finding anyone who wants to touch the deal mentioned above -- $0 down and $577 a month.
> 
> Best I can tell, that is about $1,500 under invoice with no dealer fee and base MF. I think that is the price of entry for what I am looking for -- i.e., placing an order on a 2018 for PCD.
> 
> ...


Do you have an existing lease with MSDs that you can roll over? I just got $30 off my monthly lease payment when BMW re-introduced that program this week.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

It just goes to show where "ask-a-dealer" has progressed to. Back in the day(10 years ago), CA's would be competing for 'Fester orders. And for the Monday morning quarterbacks, the Playbook didn't scare em all away.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

DDGator said:


> Sorry, this thread is all over the place... But...
> 
> Driving the GLC 300 this weekend. Nice car. Definitely heavy on the luxury and low on the sport. Has a nice quality feel to it. Too many controls on stalks. The infotainment system is not great. It requires you to insert and turn a key...:dunno: Ultimately this is really bigger than what I want for my mostly solo trips to work and for work. To get in the price range I want, it would be a pretty basic GLC. I will say that BMW's lease pricing though is very competitive.
> 
> ...


What is an X3 lease ?


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Eagle11 said:


> What is an X3 lease ?


The short answer is -- I don't know exactly. There is no advantage to leasing the X3. The residual is the same, and the incentives are less.

I'd rather drive a loaded X1 than a stripped down X3.

If I can make the $577 deal work -- I think that's the answer for me. I'm trying to close that deal.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

DDGator said:


> The short answer is -- I don't know exactly. There is no advantage to leasing the X3. The residual is the same, and the incentives are less.
> 
> I'd rather drive a loaded X1 than a stripped down X3.
> 
> If I can make the $577 deal work -- I think that's the answer for me. I'm trying to close that deal.


Just a question here, but if you can't ask, how can you make an informed decision that you can't get an X3 for the same $$. I just think an X1 for that price is insane. How about an X2? Saw one at my dealer and liked the looks much better than the X1 and I saw that the X2 M Sport comes with the 704 suspensions.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Eagle11 said:


> Just a question here, but if you can't ask, how can you make an informed decision that you can't get an X3 for the same $$. I just think an X1 for that price is insane. How about an X2? Saw one at my dealer and liked the looks much better than the X1 and I saw that the X2 M Sport comes with the 704 suspensions.


I hear you. I guess I could ask for numbers. I discussed this with several CAs who explained that the residual was the same and the incentives were $500 less. I'm not sure how it would ever be a similar number for a much more expensive vehicle.

In order to get a quote I would have to go through the process of figuring out what options I could live without.  A similarly equipped X3 is about 10k more. I think the truth is I just don't want a lesser equipped X3 over a loaded X1.

I think the X2 is cool, but not for me. I commend BMW for being very aggressive in the styling, but it is too "boy racer" for me.

I was at my local dealer this weekend while the X2 test drive event was going on. Not much interest locally in the X2 I guess -- or they did a bad job getting the word out.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Found this pending on swap-a-lease for $350 per month.

"Lease Details
Actual Lease Payments$350.00
Remaining Miles28,500
Miles Per Month864
Lease CompanyBMW Financial Services
Months Remaining33
Est. Lease End Date12/26/2020
Opt. Lease End Buyout$0
Total Mileage Allowance30500

Vehicle Details
StylesDrive28i
TrimM Sport FWD 2.0L Turbo 5dr SUV
Current Mileage2000 mi
Enginenot listed
TransmissionAutomatic
Ext. ColorWhite
Int. ColorBeige
VINWBXHU7C38J5H42453
SAL Vehicle ID#1231363

AMAZING DEAL!!!! Brand new off the lot in December... unexpectedly moving to East coast won't need a car. You won't find a better deal out there. Top of the line Beamer Fully loaded. Got a great deal only $350 a month all the bells and whistles and free XM radio for a year. Non-smoker, well maintained with factory warranty. Only been driving it for 2 months. Absolutely nothing wrong, just wont be using it. Won't last! Please call or email with any questions XXX-XXX-XXXX"

The VIN is not working within bimmer.work to see what options were ordered, but it's fully 'loaded.' Each $1,000 down reduces the monthly payment by $33, doubt this seller put $6,800 down ($577-$350= $227/$33= 6.87 * $1,000) as he would be looking for some upfront money with 33 months left. I know it's a 10,000 mile per year lease and your interested in 15,000, as purchasing an extra 5,000 miles per year is 20 cent? If so, this would add $83 to the monthly payment for a total of $433. Your best deal of $577/month which is $143 per month off. The unicorn deals are out there.

http://swapalease.com/mobile/details.aspx?p=1&salID=1231363


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Found this pending on swap-a-lease for $350 per month.
> 
> "Lease Details
> Actual Lease Payments$350.00
> ...


Here is the vin decoded on that car from bmwvin.com. Didnt really look at the options since I dont know X1 packages, just posting since you said bimmer.work didnt work :

View attachment 5H42453.pdf


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> Here is the vin decoded on that car from bmwvin.com. Didnt really look at the options since I dont know X1 packages, just posting since you said bimmer.work didnt work :
> 
> View attachment 782084


@jjrandorin thanks for posting, hopefully, @ddgator can follow-up if his proposed X1 is similar to the swap-a-lease vehicle. December 2017 was great for incentives, but a $143 per month price difference if each vehicle is 'loaded'?


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

DDGator said:


> I hear you. I guess I could ask for numbers. I discussed this with several CAs who explained that the residual was the same and the incentives were $500 less. I'm not sure how it would ever be a similar number for a much more expensive vehicle.
> 
> In order to get a quote I would have to go through the process of figuring out what options I could live without.  A similarly equipped X3 is about 10k more. I think the truth is I just don't want a lesser equipped X3 over a loaded X1.
> 
> ...


The X2 reminds me of the Mustang Fastback which I also hated back in the 70s.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

DDGator said:


> I hear you. I guess I could ask for numbers. I discussed this with several CAs who explained that the residual was the same and the incentives were $500 less. I'm not sure how it would ever be a similar number for a much more expensive vehicle.
> 
> In order to get a quote I would have to go through the process of figuring out what options I could live without.  A similarly equipped X3 is about 10k more. I think the truth is I just don't want a lesser equipped X3 over a loaded X1.
> 
> ...


I wonder how much optional items on the X1 is standard on the X3. Are you really sold in having a BMW? Did you look at the QX30 or 50?


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks, guys. The swap-a-lease X1 has about $5k less in options than what I was looking at. The deal killer is the lack of sport seats which is hard to find in a non-M-Sport model. The standard seats are not very good.

Also, I don't need the car until June. I am working on it now because I expect to order for PCD. I'm sure I could get a better deal by waiting until June and shopping stock on lots if I want to take the chance of getting what I want. Most stock cars are not equipped the way I want.

I don't care for the QX30 because it doesn't look like an SUV. Same with the M-B GLA. I guess the QX50 is a possibility, but then I might consider the M-B GLC too, which can be had in my price range with some finagling.

I appreciate all the feedback. This is becoming a much bigger thread than I would have ever expected!


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

DDGator said:


> Thanks, guys. The swap-a-lease X1 has about $5k less in options than what I was looking at. The deal killer is the lack of sport seats which is hard to find in a non-M-Sport model. The standard seats are not very good.
> 
> Also, I don't need the car until June. I am working on it now because I expect to order for PCD. I'm sure I could get a better deal by waiting until June and shopping stock on lots if I want to take the chance of getting what I want. Most stock cars are not equipped the way I want.
> 
> ...


You have been around here and a member of the community for a while. I hope you can find what you want. I think (as 1968 alluded to) that your situation.. an experienced 'Fester who knows what he wants, and is comfortable with how the numbers work, is still in a situation where the cost is substantially more than it used to be, is "sobering" as 1968 said.

As a side note, poster "peteinca" said he is looking at an X1 and is getting 11% ish off List, prior to incentives. Maybe you could PM him and see if that dealer is willing to order a car for you? Could be that he is looking at an in stock unit but I dont know. Worth a shot.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DDGator said:


> Thanks, guys. The swap-a-lease X1 has about $5k less in options than what I was looking at.


With the 15,000 mile/year residual at 56%, the $5,000 option difference would be 44% depreciation during the 36 months = $2,200 over 36 months is an extra $61 per month. The swap-a-deal was cited to compare apples to apples, as now your monthly price would around $494 ($350 + $83 mileage + $61), round up to $500 as there is no interest charge on the additional option. Your best price is $577, but there is still $77 per month to be uncovered in the trunk as @1968 would point out.

I personally believe that you CAN get the payment lower from a vehicle on the lot, but then can't do PCD. Could always get a 1 day car control school voucher from BMW NA to make up for the loss. It comes down now to is PCD worth the extra $$?

You can always extend the lease for 2 months without a production number, which would take you out to August 2018 to order (an other 5 months of contacting CA's), then with the production number can have an other 4 month extension from FS (6 months total) if your willing to continue the search, which I think your sold on the X1.

Would you mind posting which Internet CA's/Centers never responded so fellow 'Featers don't waste their time?


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

DDGator, you sure have us all going on this one -- and we are pulling for you. Especially since many of us are wondering if what is happening to you is gonna happen to us sooner or later.

If you haven't already, it might be a good exercise to compare purchasing to leasing. Which, of course, is what BMW wants us all to think about.

Anyway, I think in FL there's 60 month 1.9% APR with, I believe, $3,000 in credit applied against MSRP. With a near-invoice deal and little or no down, it is possible that you would be looking at about $125/month more than your $577 lease, and, at the end of 5 years, you'd own whatever equity was left in your X1.

Let's say 5 years and 75,000 miles down the road the car is worth 6 ~ 10 grand. Figuring some maintenance and tires and whatever, just wondering how the purchase numbers pencil out?

Another way to look at it is, on a zero down purchase, where are you, say 4 years into a 5 year loan?

I'm thinking crusty, courteous old ard is getting into my head -- he has always questioned the value of short lease terms vs. outright purchasing. In the case of $47,000 X1 MSRPs, one needs to slice and dice it every way to see what might make the most sense.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

1968BMW2800 said:


> DDGator, you sure have us all going on this one -- and we are pulling for you. Especially since many of us are wondering if what is happening to you is gonna happen to us sooner or later.
> 
> If you haven't already, it might be a good exercise to compare purchasing to leasing. Which, of course, is what BMW wants us all to think about.
> 
> ...


Could very well be. Once a lease payment exceeds 1% of msrp, an outright purchase deserves a very close look.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

bmw325 said:


> Could very well be. Once a lease payment exceeds 1% of msrp, an outright purchase deserves a very close look.


OP's $577 monthly versus around $47k MSRP is, say, 1.23%.

OP's cap cost is $41.2k, so 87.7% of MSRP, and add on top 10% tax + fee, for 97.7% total.

Let's say 2 back-to-back leases of 72 months, with total cost of 72 * 1.23% = 88.56% of MSRP.

Is a 6-year old X1 still worth 10% of original MSRP, say, $4700? Very likely, in fact it probably will be around $10k.

So the break-even point of OP's case will be around 5+ years, assuming interest rate and RV hold constant.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Guys... I appreciate all the BMW camaraderie, but I have a confession to make...

I thought I was over the Mercedes, but I am still seeing her... In time I figured out the infotainment system, and Apple Car Play worked really well for me. And the lack of a push button start was a misunderstanding--the button covering the emergency key receptacle was missing. Weird, but fine now. Still too many control stalks, but...

My local dealer is getting very close to $0 down and $600 per month on ordering me a 2018 GLC 300 with three years maintenance included. We are still talking.

In comparing a lightly equipped GLC to a loaded X1, I am giving up a few things--intelligent cruise control, heads-up display, heated seats, sunroof, and a touch screen. I don't care about the three really at all. In turn, I get a larger very nice SUV that is pretty quick, but just a bit more disconnected from the road.

Just saying, it is an option still in play. I'm trying to get the $577 deal for the X1 on paper, but it hasn't happened yet.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

DDGator said:


> Guys... I appreciate all the BMW camaraderie, but I have a confession to make...
> 
> I thought I was over the Mercedes, but I am still seeing her... In time I figured out the infotainment system, and Apple Car Play worked really well for me. And the lack of a push button start was a misunderstanding--the button covering the emergency key receptacle was missing. Weird, but fine now. Still too many control stalks, but...
> 
> ...


Great! Understand if you prefer the MB but equipped the way you describe, I think an x3 30i also might come out to a similar amount even assuming an ordered car. Then again, sounds like you have an MB dealer who is more willing to play ball than the bmw dealer.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Wait, how was the $577 per month presented to you that it's not on paper? On the phone? I suspect that the CA dosen't want you cross shop his offer? 

Regarding the 1% of MRSP for the monthly payment, isn't that based on 10,000 miles per year? @ddgator is looking at 15,000 miles per year.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Wait, how was the $577 per month presented to you that it's not on paper? On the phone? I suspect that the CA dosen't want you cross shop his offer?
> 
> Regarding the 1% of MRSP for the monthly payment, isn't that based on 10,000 miles per year? @ddgator is looking at 15,000 miles per year.


I misstated that a bit. It is in writing, but only in an email, and not on a buyers order. I figure nothing is official until all the numbers are put into a buyers order.

I have asked for the paperwork so we can move forward. There has been some delay in getting that. I hope its just the typical problems with a high volume seller and a transaction that is not pressed for time.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DDGator said:


> I misstated that a bit. It is in writing, but only in an email, and not on a buyers order. I figure nothing is official until all the numbers are put into a buyers order.
> 
> I have asked for the paperwork so we can move forward. There has been some delay in getting that. I hope its just the typical problems with a high volume seller and a transaction that is not pressed for time.


The e-mail is legally binding, as there is an offer from the CA, acceptance from @DDGator, and consideration. 3 parts of a contract are present.

Personally, I haven't signed a buyers order since my 1st ordered BMW back in 2004, don't sweet waiting for it. Just go with the X1, submit your specs and request the VIR with production number from the CA.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

DDGator said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> I honestly don't want a sunroof. At least not a giant one that isn't completely opaque when closed. I'm in Florida. It's hot, and the sun blasts through those "sun shades" on the big roofs. Not to mention the extra weight and loss of structural strength. I'd rather say no to that.
> ...


My choice of options usually is relatively spartan, at least on the cars that are paid by me. 

Nav/HUD/infotainment are distractions to me. Basics like HID lights, leather, moonroof(to quickly vent aon hot days) usually are good enough. Adaptive suspension can be nice, although if not standard it won't be considered. And rain sensing wipers.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DDGator said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> I honestly don't want a sunroof. At least not a giant one that isn't completely opaque when closed. I'm in Florida. It's hot, and the sun blasts through those "sun shades" on the big roofs. Not to mention the extra weight and loss of structural strength. I'd rather say no to that.
> ...


You don't know what your missing with iDrive 6.0. Nav is very smooth with voice comand. Technically, part of your lease will be subsidized by tax free mileage reimbursement, then X3. How many miles do you get reimbursed per month? Figure at least 100 miles per week, which is at minimum over $200 per month. Figure $650 monthly X3 lease payment is net cost of less than $450/month.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> You don't know what your missing with iDrive 6.0. Nav is very smooth with voice comand.


I could be... but the Waze app is really good. The real time crowd sourcing for red light cameras, cops, and traffic is amazing. Does iDrive Nav find cops running radar and red light cameras?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DDGator said:


> I could be... but the Waze app is really good. The real time crowd sourcing for red light cameras, cops, and traffic is amazing. Does iDrive Nav find cops running radar and red light cameras?


No red light cameras or radar with iDrive 6.0. Can't load Waze through Apple CarPlay, unless your running a jailbrooken iOS. I run Waze on out of town trips with a V1 for radar.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> No red light cameras or radar with iDrive 6.0. Can't load Waze through Apple CarPlay, unless your running a jailbrooken iOS. I run Waze on out of town trips with a V1 for radar.


I know. I hope that will change, but here is a potential partial work-around:

https://carlysis.com/how-to-enable-waze-navigation-on-apple-carplay/


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

This is currently in the lead... Getting close to making a decision.

The GLC is much nicer than the X1 -- of course, that is to be expected. Measuring entry level against a larger vehicle. But the GLC also seems to be a much better value than the X3, at least right now. 

The closest arguably comparable X3 is $50,250. That could be had around $600ish. That gives up the M-Sport look and a couple other things. Getting something truly comparable is really $56,500, which is closer to $740 a month. 

This AMG package build with LED lights, advanced parking features, keyless, the safety/driver assistance items (other than smart cruise control), CarPlay, and such is just over $600 per month (and within the insurance savings!).

By the way, the $577 deal is still not documented on paper, so I'm not sure if that is/was going to happen or not. No serious written offers better than $500 over invoice and no dealer fee. So I'm not sure I could get that loaded X1 under $600 or not.

I'll update again when there is new info. Thanks for following this thread.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Just saw this on another thread asking for input on an X5 lease. Discount, if for real, is food for thought:

_Need opinion from experts here on lease offer on 2018 X5 xDrive Mineral White in Pennsylvania

packages and options:

Premium
Driving Assistance
Parking Assistance 
Terra Dakota Leather
Heated Steering & Rear Seats
Running Boards
Manual Side Window Shades
Apple CarPlay
Wireless Charging

MSRP - 66940 + 995 = 67,935
Sale price = 58,953
15K/36 Months 
Out of Pocket = 679
Monthly payment = 836
Residual = 55%
MF = 0.00156 _


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Just to put a cap on this for now, I placed an order for a 2018 Mercedes GLC 300.

I really never expected this to happen. BMW kind of opened the door for this by not having as competitive lease rates (bad residual, lesser incentives, higher MF). They also reduced coverage for prepaid maintenance, which made it easier to compare head to head with Mercedes prepaid maintenance plans. Mercedes also offered a $2,500 rebate on the GLC for ABA members. Wow. There was $4,000 in incentives on top of a 10% discount. The way the options packages played out for what I wanted also favored Mercedes this time.

I'm not upset with BMW and I still love the cars, but they left the door cracked open and the Benz stuck it's nose in... 

I may well be back to BMW in 3 years. But I want to do a European Delivery again that time -- so I'll be comparing the ED programs too.

Thanks to all for the help. The GLC won't be here until June and I'll post a little review then.


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

DDGator said:


> Just to put a cap on this for now, I placed an order for a 2018 Mercedes GLC 300.
> 
> I really never expected this to happen. BMW kind of opened the door for this by not having as competitive lease rates (bad residual, lesser incentives, higher MF). They also reduced coverage for prepaid maintenance, which made it easier to compare head to head with Mercedes prepaid maintenance plans. Mercedes also offered a $2,500 rebate on the GLC for ABA members. Wow. There was $4,000 in incentives on top of a 10% discount. The way the options packages played out for what I wanted also favored Mercedes this time.
> 
> ...


You 100% made the right choice. The GLC is a big, big upgrade from the X1 for a few more (maybe less??) bucks a month. I think your opinion of it will be as positive as my own :thumbup:


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Congrats!!

In 3 yrs you can qualify for conquest incentive coming back to the roundel from the star.

Here is a recent MB ED write up, sense you'll be heading over to Stuttgart in 3 years, unless BMW NA steps their game up. Current BMW owners like yourself changing brands en mass will maybe wake up Woodcliff Lake.

Mercedes European Delivery Write Up for Comparison
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1235521


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Covfefe said:


> You 100% made the right choice. The GLC is a big, big upgrade from the X1 for a few more (maybe less??) bucks a month. I think your opinion of it will be as positive as my own :thumbup:


The way I see it, the price was about the same as a loaded X1, and less than a comparably equipped X3.

It is a definite upgrade from an X1.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

DDGator said:


> The way I see it, the price was about the same as a loaded X1, and less than a comparably equipped X3.
> 
> It is a definite upgrade from an X1.


Sounds like a great deal. Keep us informed how MB compared to BMW.


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## KevinMR (Jul 12, 2006)

Great for you. What options/MSRP does your GLC have (sorry if I missed it above).


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

DDGator said:


> Just to put a cap on this for now, I placed an order for a 2018 Mercedes GLC 300.
> 
> I really never expected this to happen. BMW kind of opened the door for this by not having as competitive lease rates (bad residual, lesser incentives, higher MF). They also reduced coverage for prepaid maintenance, which made it easier to compare head to head with Mercedes prepaid maintenance plans. Mercedes also offered a $2,500 rebate on the GLC for ABA members. Wow. There was $4,000 in incentives on top of a 10% discount. The way the options packages played out for what I wanted also favored Mercedes this time.
> 
> ...


Wow. 2500 rebate for ABA members. I'll have to keep that in mind for my next lease (I am a fellow lawyer in Southeast Florida). After reading your comments, the Benz certainly makes the most sense and BMW has lost a sale. I considered a C63 and E63 before I picked up the M3 in November and Benz could not come close to to BMW pricing. However, I have been hearing that Benz is killing BMW on SUV leases.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

@DDGator, do you mind sharing the financial specifics? Such as MRSP, capital cost, Money Factor and monthly payment? Did you ever receive a written offer for the ?$560 payment?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Wow. 2500 rebate for ABA members. I'll have to keep that in mind for my next lease (I am a fellow lawyer in Southeast Florida). After reading your comments, the Benz certainly makes the most sense and BMW has lost a sale. I considered a C63 and E63 before I picked up the M3 in November and Benz could not come close to to BMW pricing. However, I have been hearing that Benz is killing BMW on SUV leases.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


@Alpine300ZHP

It's a fleet discount, link: https://www.americanbar.org/content...e/2018_mercedes_lineup_march.authcheckdam.pdf

2018 C63 inventive is $1,500
2018 E63 incentive is $1,500

MB fleet blows away BMW fleet incentives. This is an eye opener.

EDIT: 
From the ABA Members Benefits, it appears that @DDGator lucked out with this special with an extra $1,500 incentive through April 2nd, 2018:

"Special Offer:

Now through April 2, 2018, get a $2,500 incentive on the GLC SUV. That***8217;s $1,500 more in savings from the regular ABA pricing. Get your hands on this best-selling vehicle today and save!"

Only vehicle manufacture that ABA has discounts with is MB, but only one control number per year. MB will e-mail this number within 48hrs after submitting via ABA website. There is also Hertz vehicle sales, $250 discount.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

KevinMR said:


> Great for you. What options/MSRP does your GLC have (sorry if I missed it above).


I covered this above, but to be fair -- things changed a bit and I might not have been super clear about it.

2018 GLC 300 SUV
Selenite Gray 
Black M-B Tex
Black Ash Wood
AMG Package (AMG body styling, 19-in 5-spoke AMG wheels, sport brakes, sport wheel, brushed aluminum pedals)
Night Package (gloss black exterior elements, black accents for wheels)
Advanced Parking Package (Parktronic sensors with active parking assist, surround view, hands-free rear hatch opening)
Premium Package (Blind spot assist, Keyless-GO, 115v outlet, Sirius XM)
LED Headlights and Taillights
Smartphone Integration Package (CarPlay, Android Auto)
MSRP = $47,505

3 years prepaid maintenance - $1,000 (residualizes with the lease)

Also worth noting some of the standard features: awesome power seats both sides with power headrests, memory, and on drivers side only - power thigh support adjustment; power folding 40/20/20 seats, dual zone A/C; auto power folding side mirrors, power liftgate, 9-speed tranny with paddle shifters, crosswind assist, collision prevention braking assist).


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Congratulations DDGator on getting a very, very nice car that, while very different from an X1, is a lot of car, with a lot of refinement and lux features, at a strong price point.

And it sounds like you are getting the right deal. Well done -- enjoy your new ride this summer.

Thanks for sharing all of the process details with us -- I certainly learned a lot from your candid play-by-play.

As an aside, word has it that Benz is planning to bring some A-class front drive sport vehicles to the USA later this year at an entry-level price point -- going after MINI and the X1, among others. FWIW, what you are getting is a giant cut above the smaller hot hatch offerings. Enjoy!


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Congratulations DDGator on getting a very, very nice car that, while very different from an X1, is a lot of car, with a lot of refinement and lux features, at a strong price point.
> 
> And it sounds like you are getting the right deal. Well done -- enjoy your new ride this summer.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Interestingly, the build slot I have is for the plant in Finland, where a lot of the A class production is going to take place, I think.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> @DDGator, do you mind sharing the financial specifics? Such as MRSP, capital cost, Money Factor and monthly payment? Did you ever receive a written offer for the ?$560 payment?


They have agreed to a price, which is $630/mo. and won't change absent credit issues. The final stages of negotiation (once I felt comfortable I was in the ball park of where I needed to be) were just about $0 down and the payment -- so I'm not totally sure where they made concessions to get there. I'll know when we do the paperwork and I have it all in front of me.

In theory it could get batter based on incentives and such, but won't get worse.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> @Alpine300ZHP
> 
> It's a fleet discount, link: https://www.americanbar.org/content...e/2018_mercedes_lineup_march.authcheckdam.pdf
> 
> ...


BMW EPP should have $2k discount for cash/non-BMWFS, and $500 for BMWFS lease/finance, for this month.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

DDGator said:


> I covered this above, but to be fair -- things changed a bit and I might not have been super clear about it.
> 
> 2018 GLC 300 SUV
> Selenite Gray
> ...


That is a nice Benz for $47K MSRP. Please keep us informed the final price after all incentives.

So $1000 3-year maintenance plan only costs the depreciation, even when the plan runs out in 3-years? That is nice.  Do BMW leases work the same if lessees(unneccesarily) add maintenance/extended warranty?


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

namelessman said:


> So $1000 3-year maintenance plan only costs the depreciation, even when the plan runs out in 3-years? That is nice.


Yes. I was debating whether to include this or pay out of pocket for service as it comes -- but since they residualize it -- the sales manager talked me into it.

My question now is whether to do the plan that includes 3 services or 4. The 4th is more expensive, but may or may not be needed before lease end.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

DDGator said:


> They have agreed to a price, which is $630/mo. and won't change absent credit issues. The final stages of negotiation (once I felt comfortable I was in the ball park of where I needed to be) were just about $0 down and the payment -- so I'm not totally sure where they made concessions to get there. I'll know when we do the paperwork and I have it all in front of me.
> 
> In theory it could get batter based on incentives and such, but won't get worse.


$630/month all in is $22680 for 3 years. Assuming the cap cost/final price is $41000(e.g.), or out-the-door $45000 in CA, so 3-year cost is 50%+ of cash buy. 

These leases are not cheap.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

namelessman said:


> These leases are not cheap.


Not what they used to be for sure, but everything is relative I guess. I really don't want to buy a premium luxury car and own it out of warranty.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Did you ever receive a written offer for the ?$560 payment?


It was $577, and no. To be fair, I let him off the hook over the weekend and told him I bought somewhere else. I didn't want him doing work on my account that was not necessary. Maybe that deal would have come together, but I'm not totally sure.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

DDGator said:


> Not what they used to be for sure, but everything is relative I guess. I really don't want to buy a premium luxury car and own it out of warranty.


Yes these cars are not cheap to maintain/repair when the miles pile up.

Mine(F30) is a *****and-hold, 55k miles so far. My strategy to mitigate out-of-warranty risk is to pick a PZEV with OEM 15-yr/150k-mile warranty on emission parts(in PZEV states).

Many old timers believe such warranty is limited coverage, but since the advent of efficient dynamics, these bimmers are built around fuel efficiency and emission, and many not-so-obvious parts(e.g. transmission parts) are now labeled as emission parts.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

I am reminded of the time we were just not getting to the right numbers on a Land Rover and I finally said to the sales manager, "Please don't make me go across the street and buy a Jeep." He asked me if I had actually shopped Jeep, which I had and I showed him the very, very aggressive numbers the Jeep store had offered me. My punishment for all of this was I did the deal I wanted on the Range Rover.

Today, if one says, "Don't make me go across the street," the salesperson's likely response will be, "Be sure to look both ways before crossing the street."


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DDGator said:


> Yes. I was debating whether to include this or pay out of pocket for service as it comes -- but since they residualize it -- the sales manager talked me into it.
> 
> My question now is whether to do the plan that includes 3 services or 4. The 4th is more expensive, but may or may not be needed before lease end.


Your lease is at 15,000 miles per year? What is the oil change interval for MB? 12k? If so, you'll be 3/4ths to the 4th oil change at 45,000 miles.

What is the price difference? Any major service that the 4th includes? Brake fluid?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

1968BMW2800 said:


> I am reminded of the time we were just not getting to the right numbers on a Land Rover and I finally said to the sales manager, "Please don't make me go across the street and buy a Jeep." He asked me if I had actually shopped Jeep, which I had and I showed him the very, very aggressive numbers the Jeep store had offered me. My punishment for all of this was I did the deal I wanted on the Range Rover.
> 
> Today, if one says, "Don't make me go across the street," the salesperson's likely response will be, "Be sure to look both ways before crossing the street."


+1

It's a different culture today.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> My punishment for all of this was I did the deal I wanted on the Range Rover.


That is hilarious and painful at the same time.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> That is hilarious and painful at the same time.


Yup. Full Disclosure: That was 2008. Making the same error again, hoping for a better outcome, I leased another Range Rover in 2013!!

Having finally learned, in fall of 2016, I went to the BMW Center to get an X1 or X3 or maybe a wagon, and ended up ordering the 2017 MINI Clubman S All4 that I'm enjoying the heck out of now. None of this don't make no kind of sense. If it did, we'd all be driving Toyotas.

Did you hear the one about DDGator? Went to lease a BMW X1 and ordered himself a Mur-Sadie's Bends. It happens.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Your lease is at 15,000 miles per year? What is the oil change interval for MB? 12k? If so, you'll be 3/4ths to the 4th oil change at 45,000 miles.
> 
> What is the price difference? Any major service that the 4th includes? Brake fluid?


My understanding is that the service intervals are roughtly 10k, 20k, 30k, and 40k. However, it is condition based service so those intervals can vary. I would have to perform the final service before lease turn-in only if the CBS monitor was saying the service was over-due.

I'm not sure. Mercedes alternates A and B services. The 40k service is the more expensive B service, maybe plus something else. Sounds like the cost is much more than adding the fourth service to the package -- the question is just whether you will need it or not.


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

One thing to consider on the packaging is removing the park assist. Unless you KNOW you will use it frequently, you might find that money is better spent on the air suspension, leather, or the comand system (I know it removes apple carplay/android auto, but it's something to consider). The Mercedes self park is a little behind in the sense that you still need to use the gas, brake, and gear shifter whereas BMW now only requires you to hold the button.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Covfefe said:


> One thing to consider on the packaging is removing the park assist. Unless you KNOW you will use it frequently, you might find that money is better spent on the air suspension, leather, or the comand system (I know it removes apple carplay/android auto, but it's something to consider). The Mercedes self park is a little behind in the sense that you still need to use the gas, brake, and gear shifter whereas BMW now only requires you to hold the button.


One of the goofy things with Mercedes option packaging is that without the parking package you don't even get parking sensors. Nothing. I don't know how much I will use the self parking feature, but I will use the sensors and surround view cameras every day.

Funny you say this -- I have seen a video of the Mercedes self parking where is does everything except shift the gears (runs the brake, gas and steering). I wonder if that varies by model? On the other hand, I had a BMW X1 loaner with self parking that required me to do everything except turn the wheel -- I had to run the gear shift, gas, and brakes. That too may vary by model?


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

I know 100% the new X3 does everything and I'm 80% sure that the GLC requires gears, gas, and brake from the driver.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

DDGator said:


> One of the goofy things with Mercedes option packaging is that without the parking package you don't even get parking sensors. Nothing. I don't know how much I will use the self parking feature, but I will use the sensors and surround view cameras every day.
> 
> Funny you say this -- I have seen a video of the Mercedes self parking where is does everything except shift the gears (runs the brake, gas and steering). I wonder if that varies by model? On the other hand, I had a BMW X1 loaner with self parking that required me to do everything except turn the wheel -- I had to run the gear shift, gas, and brakes. That too may vary by model?


Correct about BMW auto parking. The 4 series is different than the X5 which you hold down the button on the latter. X1 is simile to F3x. I have had the auto assist parking for 4+ yrs on my F15/F85's and has been successful only once! Current F83 has yet to be successful to date that the sensors are unable to locate a space, so I manually park, only ordered to protect the 20" rims from curb rash especially with 30 height tires


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

How about the Volvo xc40 or xc60. The xc40 momentum lease rates are .00047mf and 61% for a 36/15 lease according to edmunds. It in the same class as the X1. Xc60 is nicer car but it lease residuals are not as good as the xc40. 


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

eazy said:


> How about the Volvo xc40 or xc60. The xc40 momentum lease rates are .00047mf and 61% for a 36/15 lease according to edmunds. It in the same class as the X1. Xc60 is nicer car but it lease residuals are not as good as the xc40.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


I'm not a big Volvo fan, but that is a great residual for sure!


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

DDGator said:


> I'm not a big Volvo fan, but that is a great residual for sure!


Volvo and the X1 use the same gearbox

Jaguar just introduce the new E-pace but it has that terrible zf-9 speed auto.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

eazy said:


> Volvo and the X1 use the same gearbox
> 
> Jaguar just introduce the new E-pace but it has that terrible zf-9 speed auto.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


I think the OP has sold himself on a BMW, just can't wait to see the numbers when he signs the lease.


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

Eagle11 said:


> I think the OP has sold himself on a BMW, just can't wait to see the numbers when he signs the lease.


I think he sold himself on an MB...


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Covfefe said:


> I think he sold himself on an MB...


Eagle -- you are behind... I surprised myself by picking the M-B GLC. I put down a deposit and the car will be here in June.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Looking back on this thread, the BMW European Delivery program that @DDGator enjoyed for his 528 nor the enticement of taking delivery of a X1 at the Performance Center could not overcome the higher than expected lease price for the X1, nor the higher perceived value in a purchasing a MB product. BMW AG and NA marketing was a failure, due to the fact that these experiences failed to develop brand loyalty.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Looking back on this thread, the BMW European Delivery program that @DDGator enjoyed for his 528 nor the enticement of taking delivery of a X1 at the Performance Center could not overcome the higher than expected lease price for the X1, nor the higher perceived value in a purchasing a MB product. BMW AG and NA marketing was a failure, due to the fact that these experiences failed to develop brand loyalty.


I dont know if it was a failure. @ddgator himself said he was "surprised" to like the MB, so there was definitely a built in BMW bias, which is the goal of any marketing I would think ( I am not in marketing).

All of that stuff is designed to make sure that BMW is in the conversation the "next time", and BMW WAS in the conversation, but their value proposition for him (and maybe for many others) simply was not there for the comparison he made. I would argue that the car he is getting is more comparable to an X3, but the cost is higher, so the value is not there for him there either.

@DDGATOR, I want to echo 1968s "thank you" for taking us along on this ride with you. I think you represent a LOT of us in your approach to this, your thought processes, and in "wanting" to go with BMW but increasingly looking at the value of other brands.

For myself, I generally dont like mercedes styling, so have not included them in my searches... with that being said, I saw the first mercedes that made me go "whoa, thats NICE (amg C43).

Anyway, thanks @ddgator for allowing us to ride along, and showing us your rational, well thought out thought processes.


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

Not only does this highlight BMWs decreasing appeal due to worse lease conditions (among us 'festers, at least), it also reflects the failure to get the RWD X3 to market. Why they wanted to wait until MY2019 to release the RWD version, I have no clue. Really, how much work could it be for them to TAKE AWAY the front diff during the first model year? I assume that an M-Sport RWD X3 would have come close enough to Gator's price range and might have won him over. BTW Gator, are you sure you don't want heated seats?!? They are the best thing since sliced bread!


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Covfefe said:


> .....are you sure you don't want heated seats?!? They are the best thing since sliced bread!


Ventilated seats trump heated.


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## Covfefe (Jun 12, 2017)

Ibiza said:


> Ventilated seats trump heated.


You must be crazy! I feel like I have cold sweats or have just peed myself when using ventilated seats. Ventilated seats also remove sport seats on the X3 and I assume the "comfort seats" are miserable.


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Covfefe said:


> You must be crazy! I feel like I have cold sweats or have just peed myself when using ventilated seats. Ventilated seats also remove sport seats on the X3 and I assume the "comfort seats" are miserable.


1st, @DDGator lives in Florida, so heated seats are not required. Now @Ibiza lives in humid, coastal SC and on the X5M the ventilated seats have been fantastic so far through the winter months (used ventilated >> heated). We're now comparing apples to oranges. Wish BMW brings ventilated to the new G20/G80's, would be perfect in the humid summer with ventilated seats in a convertible.

X5M has ventilated with the M seats, pic attached.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

jjrandorin said:


> I dont know if it was a failure. @ddgator himself said he was "surprised" to like the MB, so there was definitely a built in BMW bias, which is the goal of any marketing I would think ( I am not in marketing).
> 
> All of that stuff is designed to make sure that BMW is in the conversation the "next time", and BMW WAS in the conversation, but their value proposition for him (and maybe for many others) simply was not there for the comparison he made. I would argue that the car he is getting is more comparable to an X3, but the cost is higher, so the value is not there for him there either.
> 
> ...


I thought Ibiza was correct until I read this... I tend to agree that the BMW marketing was not a failure. I loved the prior PCD experience, and my ED vacation was one of the best ever. IF we had been in a position to do ED this year, that may have weighed more heavily on my decision too.

I have a pang of regret about not doing PCD this time. And my wife and I have decided that summer 2021 will be another European delivery -- and BMW will be in the mix.

So, I'm not mad at BMW. Just disappointed with them this time around. We will see how it goes with The Star.

I have had a lot of fund with this thread. I don't think its over yet. I will report back in June or when there are developments along the way. Thanks to all of you for your help, your input, and for tolerating my indecision throughout the process.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Covfefe said:


> BTW Gator, are you sure you don't want heated seats?!? They are the best thing since sliced bread!


I have had heated seats. I don't really like them. First, my car is always garage kept (home and work) in Florida, so it never gets all that cold. Then I tend to get hot easily so when I have used heated seats, I use them for about 2 minutes then I'm over it.

It does annoy my wife that I don't order the heated seats. 

I would probably like ventilated cooling seats although the Lincoln ones I tried felt a bit odd... Like you were wet or something. I would probably get used to it and like it in time.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Covfefe said:


> Not only does this highlight BMWs decreasing appeal due to worse lease conditions (among us 'festers, at least), it also reflects the failure to get the RWD X3 to market. Why they wanted to wait until MY2019 to release the RWD version, I have no clue. Really, how much work could it be for them to TAKE AWAY the front diff during the first model year? I assume that an M-Sport RWD X3 would have come close enough to Gator's price range and might have won him over. BTW Gator, are you sure you don't want heated seats?!? They are the best thing since sliced bread!


BMW has a limited supply. right now just building only x drives makes sense for them, especially In the winter months. 
Next month the Rosslyn plant will start building the X3. Bmw dealers should see an increase in x3's in the coming months.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Bumping this thread up. Getting close to delivery @DDGator?


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> Bumping this thread up. Getting close to delivery @DDGator?


I'm still here! 

My GLC is being built right now and should be on a ship by Friday. The car is being built at Mercedes new plant in Finland. Delivery sometime in the next few weeks.

I had a pre-lease inspection on my 528i and they are going to ding me for $200 for a ding in the front fender along the body line, and a rock chip through the paint. Not too bad, I guess.


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## Vitacura (Jul 22, 2005)

DDGator said:


> I had a pre-lease inspection on my 528i and they are going to ding me for $200 for a ding in the front fender along the body line, and a rock chip through the paint. Not too bad, I guess.


Mind sharing what dealer you did the pre-inspection through? My lease ends in just over three months and I am starting to look at making an appointment to get mine inspected and seeing which of the local dealers I will do the return at.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Vitacura said:


> Mind sharing what dealer you did the pre-inspection through? .


Sure... I did my pre-lease end inspection at Ferman in Palm Harbor. I went in without an appointment. One of the new "BMW genius" guys inspected the car and filled out a report. It was pretty cursory -- no measurement of tire tread depth or anything. I honestly think he might have missed a ding in the top of the front fender, but I didn't want any surprises later so i pointed it out. A manager looked at it to assess the ding and also found a spot with rock damage to the front end down to the metal. They assessed me only for one "small" damage, or $200.

We will see if anything else comes up at final lease turn in.


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## Vitacura (Jul 22, 2005)

I actually live only a few miles from Ferman and they are the dealer who services my BMW's, so I appreciate the info!


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

DDGator said:


> I'm still here!
> 
> My GLC is being built right now and should be on a ship by Friday. The car is being built at Mercedes new plant in Finland. Delivery sometime in the next few weeks.
> 
> I had a pre-lease inspection on my 528i and they are going to ding me for $200 for a ding in the front fender along the body line, and a rock chip through the paint. Not too bad, I guess.


Hmm. I had my pre-inspection done last week. My car is in perfect shape so no issues there. They noted my right rear tire was below spec (as I suspected) and my left rear tire was right at spec. I just ordered two used rears so I will not have any lease end charges (I ll pay mileage overage by phone a couple of days prior to lease turn-in.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> My car is in perfect shape so no issues there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


The one ding in my car was the result of my wife parking the car in the garage. She drove a bit too far and hit a cardboard box that jostled my workbench...suffice to say that after a series of events similar to a Rube Goldberg cartoon...a metal box tumbled onto the hood of the car.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

DDGator said:


> I'm still here!
> 
> My GLC is being built right now and should be on a ship by Friday. The car is being built at Mercedes new plant in Finland. Delivery sometime in the next few weeks.
> 
> I had a pre-lease inspection on my 528i and they are going to ding me for $200 for a ding in the front fender along the body line, and a rock chip through the paint. Not too bad, I guess.


It built by Valmet in Finland. It sort of like Magna building the 5 series in Austria

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