# ED picked up in Munich 2.5 months ago but still waiting on lease paperwork



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

A noob here, both to the forum and to ED. I appreciate advice and pointers.

Before making the decision to do an ED purchase, I did a lot of research about the process, pricing, and recommended CAs to work with. The forum was super helpful. 

Back in June, I pulled the trigger and went with a recommended CA who does a lot of straight clean ED deals. Without naming who, he is supposed to be one of the top CAs

The deal I got was 750 over invoice for 528i. There was a lot of back and forth on model and options, etc. , and the CA was very responsive and professional. Working with him was easy. I filled out the paperwork for August delivery.

After I had the date confirmed, I kept following up on the purchase/lease paperwork, but it never came. I called the CA a couple of days before my trip to Europe very concerned. He assured the car is mine and their finance office is backed up and I will have paperwork mailed over after I come back from Europe (mid September). The trip to europe was phenomenal and amazing. Everything went very smoothly.

I arrived to the US and the paperwork was mailed, but the numbers looked way off. I could use your help for sanity checking.

16' 528i
US MSRP: $60,420
Sale value agreed on: $53,135 (invoice + 750) + $199.50 documentation fee + sales tax/license fees,
Last minute, I requested 30 day insurance because I had the car over 14 days.

Lease paperwork I got (note: it was for 10k when I asked for 12k, and didn***8217;t include max MSDs as requested). 

36 months, 10k miles/yr, $0 deposit
1- Gross capitalized cost: $54,449 (this should be agreed on sale value of $53,135, since license and doc fees are included separately in downpayment)
2- Residual value: $35,647.80 (isn***8217;t residual value based on US MSRP. if so, this means 58 or 59% residual?. I would***8217;ve thought it should be more around 62%)
3- Rent charge: $5,838.28 (based on my math, this is 0.0018 when we had agreed on a clean deal with buy rate MF. I believe that should be 0.0016)

so with these numbers, the lease paperwork they sent me was for monthly payment including tax (CA) was well above $700 for 36 months 10k miles. When based on my calculations and what I asked for (36 months, 12k miles, max MSDs), should be around ~$580 

Am I off base here?


So I refused to sign the lease paperwork asking for the numbers to be clarified and the terms be fixed to 12k miles and max MSD.

The car is probably going to be ready for delivery in the US in a couple of weeks, and I haven***8217;t gotten a clear response and no purchase agreement signed except for the original PO.

All I keep getting from the CA is it***8217;s coming, it***8217;s coming without any confirmations of the final numbers. I have been very patient because partly, I am not losing anything and don***8217;t mind waiting, but at this point I am starting to wonder if they will try to screw with me last minute. 

I made sure all communication has a paper trail.

I am still not sure how I have gone so far into the process without the car getting funded, and in case they do try to screw me last minute, what my options are.

Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

*Q*



wwnomad said:


> A noob here, both to the forum and to ED. I appreciate advice and pointers.


Okay, I think I'm going to break this down and see if I can possibly add anything you each of your questions. I may add a few comments along the way just for our mutual understanding of how this could have happened. 



> Before making the decision to do an ED purchase, I did a lot of research about the process, pricing, and recommended CAs to work with. The forum was super helpful.
> 
> Back in June, I pulled the trigger and went with a recommended CA who does a lot of straight clean ED deals. Without naming who, he is supposed to be one of the top CAs


Considering that you live in California, I find it unusual that you used an out-of-state dealer for a European Delivery but that's certainly your choice. I say that because I can't imagine anything remotely close to this happening with any of the very active Bimmerfest sponsors in California who are also highly recommended and usually beat or match the deals offered by out-of-state client advisors.



> The deal I got was 750 over invoice for 528i.


You say the deal you got was $750 over invoice but then you say you paid $199.50 "doc fee." That means you did not buy your car from a dealer in California, Oregon or Washington because that "doc fee" is higher than any of those states are allowed to charge. In California the "doc fee" is $80. So you paid $750.00 + $119.50 excess "doc fee" = $949.50 over invoice, allegedly.



> There was a lot of back and forth on model and options, etc. , and the CA was very responsive and professional. Working with him was easy. I filled out the paperwork for August delivery.
> 
> After I had the date confirmed, I kept following up on the purchase/lease paperwork, but it never came. I called the CA *a couple of days before my trip to Europe* very concerned.


A couple of days before your departure for Europe and you still hadn't received the lease contract to sign and return to him? That's simply beyond belief. Not on your part but on the part of the dealership.



> He assured the car is mine and their finance office is backed up and I will have paperwork mailed over after I come back from Europe (mid September).


I can't understand how this happened. I'll just leave it and that and not speculate any further. 



> The trip to europe was phenomenal and amazing. Everything went very smoothly.


And everything was in order when you signed the delivery receipt paperwork at the BMW Welt? No problems? I wonder who paid BMW for the car?



> I arrived to the US and the paperwork was mailed, but the numbers looked way off. I could use your help for sanity checking.
> 
> 16' 528i
> US MSRP: $60,420
> ...


Anything at all on the lease agreement that is not exactly what you requested and your client advisor agreed to accept will have to be redone to your satisfaction. You should not accept anything at all other than what you and the dealer's representative agreed was the deal. I assume you have a paper trail to back up all of the agreed upon terms, right?



> 36 months, 10k miles/yr, $0 deposit
> 1- Gross capitalized cost: $54,449 (this should be agreed on sale value of $53,135, since license and doc fees are included separately in downpayment)


Do not sign the lease if anything is not in accordance with what you agreed to pay! Period! End of sentence. Do not accept any changes to your deal, especially under these extremely unusual circumstances that I have never heard of in my entire career in this business, which spanned more than three decades.



> 2- Residual value: $35,647.80 (isn't residual value based on US MSRP. if so, this means 58 or 59% residual?. I would've thought it should be more around 62%)


Yes, the residual is a percentage of the US MSRP, not the ED MSRP. I don't remember what it was back in August, which is the date that should have controlled what the residual and money factor should have been on your lease because *your lease should have been dated before you left for Munich*.



> 3- Rent charge: $5,838.28 (based on my math, this is 0.0018 when we had agreed on a clean deal with buy rate MF. I believe that should be 0.0016)


The money factor today is .00131 + .0003 ED adder = .00161 today (November 2015). However, I'm pretty sure it was .0013 back in August, as you say. That would have made it .0016 for European Delivery minus .00049 for maximum MSDs = .00111. Do you have something in writing confirming that the dealership would give you the base money factor without any mark-up?



> so with these numbers, the lease paperwork they sent me was for monthly payment including tax (CA) was well above $700 for 36 months 10k miles. When based on my calculations and what I asked for (36 months, 12k miles, max MSDs), should be around ~$580
> 
> Am I off base here?


I am not going to try to calculate the lease. All I want to say is that this entire situation is absurd on the part of the dealership. I am assuming that you have something to back up all of what you were told was the agreed upon deal. If so, that is what your lease should and will reflect once you straight this whole mess out. There is no way they can get out of this mess without agreeing to whatever the client advisor told you, provided you can prove all of that.

You realize, I assume that BMW Financial Services is responsible for paying your second payment on a European Delivery lease. That's why they add that extra .0003 to the money factor. So when this whole mess is straightened out, either BMWFS or the dealer is going to make your second payment for you because you are going to make sure that point is agreed to in writing before you sign anything at all. Don't forget to make that clear to the dealer when you explain to him how he is going to prepare your lease agreement.



> So I refused to sign the lease paperwork asking for the numbers to be clarified and the terms be fixed to 12k miles and max MSD.
> 
> The car is probably going to be ready for delivery in the US in a couple of weeks, and I haven't gotten a clear response and no purchase agreement signed except for the original PO.


Correct. Make sure everything is exactly what you agreed to before you left for Munich.



> All I keep getting from the CA is it's coming, it's coming without any confirmations of the final numbers. I have been very patient because partly, I am not losing anything and don't mind waiting, but at this point I am starting to wonder if they will try to screw with me last minute.


Did you say this guy was a Bimmerfest sponsor or just a client advisor who was recommended by others on this forum?



> I made sure all communication has a paper trail.


This is extremely important!



> I am still not sure how I have gone so far into the process without the car getting funded, and in case they do try to screw me last minute, what my options are.


Where are you scheduled to pick up this car when it arrives here in the US? Are you going to this dealer out of state to get your car? Is he supposed to have it trucked to you?

You have obvious options. I hesitate to go into them here but let's just say that if you are not satisfied with the way your client advisor is handling this transaction, you can always call or email the General Sales Manager (if they have one), or the General Manager, of the dealership. In addition, at any point you can call BMW Financial Services to explain to them that you took delivery of your car in Munich that you were told was being leased through them but the dealership told you not to worry about signing the lease agreement until after you returned home from Europe and you were just wondering how that works and when they will show your account on their website.

Good luck! Just remember that is you have a paper trail, and you have your copy of the delivery receipt at the BMW Welt with your name on it, you are in charge of this situation. The dealership is going to do whatever you tell them to do. Just go easy on them.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Ninong said:


> Okay, I think I'm going to break this down and see if I can possibly add anything you each of your questions. I may add a few comments along the way just for our mutual understanding of how this could have happened.
> 
> Considering that you live in California, I find it unusual that you used an out-of-state dealer for a European Delivery but that's certainly your choice. I say that because I can't imagine anything remotely close to this happening with any of the very active Bimmerfest sponsors in California who are also highly recommended and usually beat or match the deals offered by out-of-state client advisors.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your response.

West coast CAs were at about 900-1k... so the CA I went with was in that same ball park. The decision to go with out of state CA was purely out of convenience. I am planning to visit family who live few hours away from the dealer, and I had a bunch of things I need shipped from there to California. So I thought it would be nice to just pickup the car there, visit family, packup the stuff in the car and drive cross country (my idea of a great time ).

Everything in Munich was super smooth with my name on the paperwork, not a single hiccup (I was a little nervous).

I still don't understand how this happened or what it means. The main reason I didn't want to mention CA name, is he is a sponsor and probably easy to guess who and nothing he did so far has indicated any malicious intent. I have read in another places that that dealer's finance department sucks and is too slow. This whole thing is so weird.

As far as pickup, I was going to pickup from dealer but I put in a request to do PCD because of the timing works best. I haven't gotten a date yet.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> West coast CAs were at about 900-1k... so the CA I went with was in that same ball park. The decision to go with out of state CA was purely out of convenience. I am planning to visit family who live few hours away from the dealer, and I had a bunch of things I need shipped from there to California. So I thought it would be nice to just pickup the car there, visit family, packup the stuff in the car and drive cross country (my idea of a great time ).


Oh, okay. That answers my question. You went with an out-of-state dealer for virtually the same total price (as quoted anyway) because it worked out better for personal family reasons.



> The main reason I didn't want to mention CA name, is he is a sponsor and probably easy to guess who and nothing he did so far has indicated any malicious intent. I have read in another places that that dealer's finance department sucks and is too slow. This whole thing is so weird.


There's no need to mention the client advisor's name, especially if he's a Bimmerfest sponsor. As long as he makes sure that everything is straightened out in the end and you get exactly what he promised you, then there is no reason to bring the name of his dealership into this thread -- assuming everything works out.



> As far as pickup, I was going to pickup from dealer but I put in a request to do PCD because of the timing works best. I haven't gotten a date yet.


The Performance Center won't give you a delivery date until after your car clears US Customs at the port of entry. That's because they don't know in advance if it will need any body/paint work to repair in-transit damage or damage done on your European vacation that is covered by BMW's ED insurance. Also, they don't know how long it might be tied up clearing Customs.

The bottom line is that whether your client advisor is a Bimmerfest sponsor or not and whether he seems like a nice guy or not, this is totally unacceptable and beyond belief. Personally, I wouldn't stand for this one day longer. You need a lease contract in order to get this car in your name. The dealership was supposed to cash that lease contract with BMWFS to pay for the car before you left for Munich. The actual registration in your name as lessee with BMWFS as lessor, doesn't get done until you take re-delivery here in the US, but the lease agreement is supposed to get signed, sealed and delivered before you leave not after you get back home.

I don't know how they are going to back date this lease agreement and then cash it with BMWFS this late when you took delivery in August. Your first payment was due the date you signed the lease, which should have been in August. Your second payment, the one BMWFS makes for you, was due exactly 30 days after the date of the lease -- meaning it was due in September. Your third payment, the first one you are responsible for after you paid the first one with your total drive-offs, should have been due in October. Your fourth payment should be due sometime this month. The only thing I can think of is that they intend to date your lease agreement this month, November, and then somehow explain this to BMWFS. That should be fun. Which terms will BMWFS allow them to use?? Who knows? I can't understand how this could happen, especially since everything went so smoothly at the Welt. Somebody paid for the car. Maybe they processed it as a cash deal? Now what do they do? Try to explain to BMWFS that it was a mistake? 

If they can somehow put a current date on your lease agreement, then today's money factor is .00131, the residual for 36/10K is 60%, making it 61% for 12K. They have to call it a European Delivery to get the 7% ED discount and to get BMWFS to pay the second payment. That would add .0003 to the money factor, making it .00161 - .00049 MSDs = .00112. For the month of November, there are two BMWFS cash-to-customer incentives: $1,000 Novemberfest Adder and $1,000 Option Credit, so if the lease is dated in November you qualify for both of those, assuming you accept November's program as I just outlined. It's much more likely that they will have to date this lease in November somehow. I still don't understand how they intend to get away with this and get BMWFS to pay the second payment.

P.S. -- You picked up the car at the Welt in August, so the car has a ED invoice. The lease really should be dated in August. I don't know if they will be able to date it November or not, maybe not. That definitely complicates the number of payments that are already due. Lots of questions about this that I really can't give you a definite answer on because I have never heard of this before. If the lease has a current date, then I don't know how that would work out either.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Okay, here is my advice. Quit fooling around. Pick up the phone tomorrow, Friday, and call the dealership's General Sales Manager or General Manager and just tell him that you took delivery of a European Delivery car in August but you have never signed the lease agreement because your client advisor told you not to worry about that because it's not necessary to sign that until after you return from your trip, but they still haven't sent you a lease agreement that matches the terms you were quoted. You just received a lease agreement that is totally incorrect and does not match any of the terms you were quoted.

Your question for him is, "What's going on?" That's it. Just ask that question and then don't go any further with the details. Let him take it from there.


----------



## CalvinH (Apr 5, 2003)

watching and waiting.... before I add a potentially related story.


----------



## RKA (Dec 1, 2002)

Completely agree with ninong, except for one statement. Please share the name of the dealer once you reach a conclusion to this mess. This situation is highly unusual and requires your time to sort it out.


----------



## Hangman4358 (Nov 26, 2013)

How does this even happen? You need to have the paperwork signed to pick up the car...


----------



## cnair (May 25, 2015)

I don't understand how you can do an ED pickup without signing the lease docs. As Ninong said contact the dealer ASAP and straighten it out.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

CalvinH said:


> watching and waiting.... before I add a potentially related story.


Now you have us all wondering how anything could be remotely related to this mess. 



RKA said:


> Completely agree with ninong, except for one statement. Please share the name of the dealer once you reach a conclusion to this mess. This situation is highly unusual and requires your time to sort it out.


It's definitely out of the ordinary, isn't it? One would think that the client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor would have been aware of any internal problems at the dealership and seen to it that the lease agreement, when it was finally prepared, was in exact agreement with the agreed upon deal. If he requires approval of all of his deals, then he knew if his was out-of-line. I have a sneaky suspicion that this may be at the heart of this situation. He may have stuck his neck out for something that was unacceptable and didn't get it fully approved in advance?

Regardless of how this happened, it shouldn't have happened. Who is ultimately responsible for seeing to it that everything is done properly if it's not the client advisor? Who is the one in direct communication with the customer? It's not enough to be "nice and caring" if you're not effective at doing your job.



Hangman4358 said:


> How does this even happen? You need to have the paperwork signed to pick up the car...


You need your passport and it must match what the Welt has on record. The Welt has a copy of the purchase order you signed showing all of the equipment but it might be that the dealership submitted it as a cash deal? That's the only thing I can think of right now.



cnair said:


> I don't understand how you can do an ED pickup without signing the lease docs. As Ninong said contact the dealer ASAP and straighten it out.


I guess it could go through if the deal was processed by the dealership as a cash deal. The car isn't going to be registered until after it is redelivered here in the US at either a dealership or the Performance Center. It's the financing part of the transaction that is going to be difficult to fix this late in the game. By that I mean that I don't know how the dealership is going to explain this to BMWFS. What date will they show on the lease agreement? What terms will apply? What incentives, if any, will be applicable? How can the dealership expect BMWFS to fund a lease that is about to have its *4th payment* due this month?

Based on what the OP is reporting here, his client advisor is giving him the impression that this is not a problem and that they have done this previously -- waited until the customer had returned home before bothering to sign the lease. Who knew???


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Hangman4358 said:


> How does this even happen? You need to have the paperwork signed to pick up the car...


Not really. AG (Welt) is only concerned that they have been paid by NA - and NA is very good at ensuring they've been paid by the dealer.

I've done one ED lease where the lease docs caught up with me and the M5 in London - a week after Munich delivery.


----------



## djsaad1 (Sep 3, 2012)

dkreidel said:


> Not really. AG (Welt) is only concerned that they have been paid by NA - and NA is very good at ensuring they've been paid by the dealer.
> 
> I've done one ED lease where the lease docs caught up with me and the M5 in London - a week after Munich delivery.


I am sure you have a great relationship with your dealer. But for the OP, doesn't that put a huge risk on the dealer? What if OP doesn't sign the paperwork now?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> ... AG (Welt) is only concerned that they have been paid by NA - and NA is very good at ensuring they've been paid by the dealer.


This is what appears to have happened in this deal. It was processed as a cash deal.



djsaad1 said:


> I am sure you have a great relationship with your dealer. But for the OP, doesn't that put a huge risk on the dealer? What if OP doesn't sign the paperwork now?


If the OP doesn't sign the paperwork, then the dealer has a car with miles on it that has never been registered. The BMW warranty started back in August on the date the OP picked up the car at the Welt.

The dealership cannot register it in the first customer's name if he refuses to sign the report of sale and odometer certification statement. If it were to be registered in the first customer's name, it would go on a new car report of sale (in California). In California, the sales tax (on a sale), license and registration fees are due upon registration -- in California use tax on a lease is paid to the state by the lessor. You can't transfer title out of the original customer's name if it was never titled in his name to begin with. So whoever buys it would be the first registered owner. None of that should matter when it comes to the BMW factory warranty except the part about the 4 yr/50,000 miles maintenance. That might be tricky??

Exactly what financing terms such a car would qualify for with BMWFS when sold is anybody's guess. That would be up to BMWFS to decide, not the dealer.

However, none of that is going to happen anyway. The dealer and the customer are going to come to an agreement on what his deal actually is because the customer says he has a complete paper trail of exactly what deal he agreed to with the client advisor. It's the dealership's job to figure out how to deal with BMWFS. The customer is going to be satisfied with the agreement, whatever it is, because I believe he is in the driver's seat. He wants the car but not nearly as much as the dealer wants to avoid taking it into stock.


----------



## Brian R. (Sep 5, 2002)

djsaad1 said:


> I am sure you have a great relationship with your dealer. But for the OP, doesn't that put a huge risk on the dealer? What if OP doesn't sign the paperwork now?


Guess they bought a slightly used service loaner for their service dept... :rofl:


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Thanks again for the conversation and tips. 

I will follow the advice and try to get hold of the general manager. 

Based on what I am hearing, makes me wonder if the lease agreement they sent me back in September was a reflection of a deal they could make work and were hoping I would blindly sign. and now they are stuck figuring out a way out. The other scenario which I am hoping for is that it's just them being overwhelmed with deals. Ok that latter is a stretch at this point. 

Is the PO a binding agreement for me to purchase the vehicle? With all this happening, my wife is on my case about walking away and may be getting a minivan. Haha. I told her only if it involves another ED. 

Seriously speaking when the car goes through customs, whose name is it under? BMWNA, BMWFS, dealer, or my name?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> Based on what I am hearing, makes me wonder if the lease agreement they sent me back in September was a reflection of a deal they could make work and were hoping I would blindly sign. and now they are stuck figuring out a way out.


The lease agreement they sent you in September is the deal as far as they are concerned. You are saying that it's not the deal you thought you agreed to with the client advisor and that you have a complete and detailed paper trail to prove it.

At this point it's a standoff between you and the dealership. They say the deal is what's on the lease agreement they sent you in September and you say that agreement is full of errors and you won't sign it.

This is November. How could it take this long to get to this point with you not talking to someone besides the client advisor? I'm not being critical, I'm just asking.



> The other scenario which I am hoping for is that it's just them being overwhelmed with deals. Ok that latter is a stretch at this point.


That's not the answer and never was. When the client advisor told you the reason you didn't receive the lease agreement to sign prior to leaving for Munich because the F&I office was backed up, he was full of BS. The lease agreement is supposed to be signed and returned to the dealership before you depart for Munich so they can cash it with BMWFS and BMWFS can pay BMWNA for the car. It's a lease! It's not a cash deal. So any excuse they gave you is absurd.



> Is the PO a binding agreement for me to purchase the vehicle?


It's a purchase order. It shows that you agreed to purchase that car with that equipment from BMW. The lease agreement shows the terms agreed to between you and the dealership for paying for that car that you ordered. You never agreed to pay cash for this car. You agreed to lease it through BMWFS on the terms agreed to between you and the client advisor. As long as you have a detailed paper trail of exactly what that agreement was then I don't understand how you got to November without this being resolved?



> Seriously speaking when the car goes through customs, whose name is it under? BMWNA, BMWFS, dealer, or my name?


BMW of North America is the importer of all BMW cars from overseas. After the car clears US Customs, BMWNA will prepare a Certificate of Origin, which is the "title" to the car. They will send that with the dealer's invoice to the ordering dealer. The car is your car in the sense that it was a ED Priority 1 car with your name on it. The disagreement now is between you and the dealership over the exact terms of the lease.

How you proceed at this point is up to you. Surely there has been some communication between you and the dealership over the lease agreement you received in September? If that was not satisfactorily resolved in a timely manner, why didn't you bump this up higher? First to the General Sales Manager or General Manager of the dealership and then to both BMW Financial Services and BMW of North America. They will send a notification to the dealership asking them to get in touch with you to "resolve the matter."

Good luck!


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Sent messages and left voicemail. Let's see if I hear back this weekend. 

As far as I am concerned, there is not standoff. When I sent the CA emails and texts and about the lease being completely off. Not one number on there is accurate except the fact it's a 36 month lease. The response has been all along, 'we are swamped, we will get back to you soon' and hen turned into 'finance manager is finalizing today' 'it's sent out today'etc 

There has been no indication that they are saying the September lease is the deal, otherwise I would've escalated immediately. 

Because of that I was ok waiting it out September and October but
at this pointi I don't want to wait any longer to make sure I don't get the paperwork a couple days before delivery date. That leaves me no time to address issues since I don't trust the updated paperwork will be accurate. 

Will keep you posted


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Ok. Patience have officially run out. I got paperwork in the mail today. And the only difference from one sent back in September is they put in the max MSD. They didn't even adjust it to 12k miles. What a ****ing joke. 

Is there a way I can confirm Buy rate MF and residual for 16' 528i 36/12k in August. Would BMWFS give that to me if I call and ask? I haven't been able to find it anywhere online. I need a way to confirm those numbers.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

By the way, what's "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee"? Is that same as destination charge? They have listed here at $925


----------



## djsaad1 (Sep 3, 2012)

wwnomad said:


> Ok. Patience have officially run out. I got paperwork in the mail today. And the only difference from one sent back in September is they put in the max MSD. They didn't even adjust it to 12k miles. What a ****ing joke.
> 
> Is there a way I can confirm Buy rate MF and residual for 16' 528i 36/12k in August. Would BMWFS give that to me if I call and ask? I haven't been able to find it anywhere online. I need a way to confirm those numbers.


In my opinion you have the leverage, unless I am missing something. You have put no money down, you can walk away from this now if you wanted, and they get a slightly used car they will end up losing money on compared to your original deal.

Worse case scenario you paid for a trip to europe, had a great time, and got a free rental while you were there.


----------



## CalvinH (Apr 5, 2003)

wwnomad said:


> By the way, what's "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee"? Is that same as destination charge? They have listed here at $925


Haven't seen this fee before. Destination is $995, not $925.


----------



## The Sage (Nov 27, 2014)

Wow, unbelievable. The dealer I worked with provided a written quote on our ED lease deal 3 months before ED. We sign lease a week before ED and not only was it exactly what was quoted, it was slightly better. 

Something else is going on here. Your CA saying the finance department is backed up seems like a really lame excuse. This is even more unbelievable if this CA is a forum sponsor.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> By the way, what's "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee"? Is that same as destination charge? They have listed here at $925


Sorry, I have never heard of a "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee" in the state of California. The only thing I can think of that is $925 would be the BMWFS lease acquisition fee but that can't possibly be what they're talking about here. You will have to call them to ask them.

Wait a minute... Are you registering this car in the state of Georgia or the state of California? You live in California, right? But you ordered the car through a Bimmerfest sponsor in another state, right? Georgia? What are they doing?



wwnomad said:


> Ok. Patience have officially run out. I got paperwork in the mail today. And the only difference from one sent back in September is they put in the max MSD. They didn't even adjust it to 12k miles. What a ****ing joke.


I wouldn't be all that concerned about 10,000 miles or 12,000 miles because you can always buy extra miles towards the end of the lease if you need them. This is just not a big deal, really.



> Is there a way I can confirm Buy rate MF and residual for 16' 528i 36/12k in August. Would BMWFS give that to me if I call and ask? I haven't been able to find it anywhere online. I need a way to confirm those numbers.


The buy rate in August was either .00129 or .00130, if I remember correctly. What money factor did they use on this lease agreement? Divide the monthly rental charge by the sum of the net cap cost and the residual to arrive at the money factor.

You can probably find out the buy rate money factor and the residual by doing a search on this forum (or others) for posts from August. Even a regular google online might pull it up because that stuff is always discussed online between BMW enthusiasts who frequent the Internet. 

What is the date on this lease agreement? I don't think you posted that information? That's so important to this entire discussion because it controls a lot of things. 

The date of the lease agreement is extremely important in your case because this was a European Delivery and I'm curious to know how this is going to work out now that we are in November and you picked up the car in August. So many interesting questions here. Is the money factor marked up with the usual ED mark-up of .0003 to make sure BMWFS pays the second payment? Will BMWFS make the second payment on a car that was picked up back in August? Will BMWFS fund a lease contract in November that has an August date? Is it even legal to sign a contract in November that is dated in August? -- probably not.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Where exactly is your car right now? What ship is it on? When is it due in port? Which port is it going to? 

Is it possible the F&I department at the dealership thinks the car is going to them for delivery? Do they think it's being registered in their state?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> By the way, what's "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee"? Is that same as destination charge? They have listed here at $925


I'm calling BS on this one! If "Arb" stands for air resources board, then Georgia doesn't even have one. California does, but they don't charge a fee on new vehicles. If it stands for "arbitration," then even Georgia doesn't have a fee like that as far as I can tell. Did you tell us how much they're showing on your lease for license/registration fees?

I'm beginning to think that you ordered this car from a certain dealership in Georgia. And you are experiencing unbelievable problems getting the paperwork done properly, possibly because the Bimmerfest sponsor client advisor was on vacation at the time (maybe even because he just got married or something). That doesn't excuse the dealership's responsibility to handle the paperwork in a timely and efficient manner.

That $925 has to come off. It's utter BS as far as I can tell. You may as well have them correct the mileage while they're at it and make it 12,000 as you requested.

If this was a dealership in Georgia, then it's interesting to see that they actually do play around with their "doc fee" more than they like to let on since they charged you $199.50. It's unregulated, so I guess they can do whatever they want with it but some other 'festers have posted paying $599 "doc fee" in Georgia. Florida dealers routinely charge a $699 "doc fee" even to people buying from "sponsors." In regulated states (there are about a dozen of those), the dealers all charge the same "doc fee." In unregulated states, it's like the Wild West -- whatever the market will bear.

The most important thing here (at least as far as I am concerned) is the date on this lease agreement. I find it hard to believe they can cash this thing if it's dated in August showing the second payment due in September (that's the one BMWFS was to pay). That contract would be seriously in default at this point because the fourth payment is due this month. Maybe they intend to send the past due payment(s) with it when they attempt to cash it?

If it has a current date, then the current date should determine the money factor and residual but I have no clue about what, if any, incentives would apply since the car was picked up originally in August at the Welt.

Good luck! 

P.S. -- Today is Saturday. They're open but the General Manager may not be there today. None of the sales managers can help you on this, only the GM or the GSM, but you can yell at the F&I director, if he or she is in.  It's obvious the Bimmerfest sponsor/client advisor is not controlling what happens in the F&I department very well.


----------



## CalvinH (Apr 5, 2003)

Ninong said:


> {snip}
> If this was a dealership in Georgia, then it's interesting to see that they actually do play around with their "doc fee" more than they like to let on since they charged you $199.50. It's unregulated, so I guess they can do whatever they want with it but some other 'festers have posted paying $599 "doc fee" in Georgia. Florida dealers routinely charge a $699 "doc fee" even to people buying from "sponsors." In regulated states (there are about a dozen of those), the dealers all charge the same "doc fee." In unregulated states, it's like the Wild West -- whatever the market will bear. {snip}


My GA dealer had a "fixed" doc fee of $599 that they were unwilling to give up. I realize that it's just another dealership profit element. I did get another offer from an out of state dealer, but the bottom line price differential was less than $100. Mark-up is mark-up, no matter how you slice it.

Sorry for the digression, just wanted to add to the "doc fee" comment.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

CalvinH said:


> My GA dealer had a "fixed" doc fee of $599 that they were unwilling to give up. I realize that it's just another dealership profit element. I did get another offer from an out of state dealer, but the bottom line price differential was less than $100. Mark-up is mark-up, no matter how you slice it.
> 
> Sorry for the digression, just wanted to add to the "doc fee" comment.


I'm just speculating because so far the OP hasn't told us anything about the Bimmerfest sponsor he used to order his ED car. He said he paid $199.50 "doc fee" and that's a rather unusual number. I'm really not sure what state that is but since he posted they are charging him a "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee of $925" I'm jumping to conclusions. Obviously GA is the abbreviation for the state of Georgia.

We'll see. Waiting for OP to tell us more. This is getting interesting. :yikes:


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

The only way I can interpret the $925 is lease acquisition fee. I guess I will find out Monday.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> The only way I can interpret the $925 is lease acquisition fee. I guess I will find out Monday.


That's not the way the lease acquisition fee shows up on a BMWFS lease.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

also the lease agreement is back dated to 8/29/2015. I picked up the car 8/17


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

The acquisition fee is never described as "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee." Never.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> also the lease agreement is back dated to 8/29/2015. I picked up the car 8/17


That's an interesting choice of dates. If it's dated Aug. 29, then the second payment was due Sep. 28 (to be paid by BMWFS), and the third payment (to be paid by you) was due Oct. 28. The lease contract is technically in default at this time. Maybe the dealership will ask you to pay them the third payment so that they can pay it to BMWFS when they attempt to get this lease funded?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

If they're going to backdate it to August, they may as well backdate it to August 15 so that it would be two days before you picked up the car.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Ninong said:


> If they're going to backdate it to August, they may as well backdate it to August 15 so that it would be two days before you picked up the car.


Yeah. seems random. The first version of the lease agreement they sent back in September had the same date. It could be that was the date they finally got to do the paperwork,


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

They should probably date the lease back to August and use a date before you left for Munich. Then they should ask you to pay them (the dealership) the October and November payments. Then, after they make up an excuse of some sort to explain why they're so late sending this thing in for funding, they either include the October and November payments or just have BMWFS short them that amount. It will be too late for BMWFS to bill you in time for the November payment (which would be the fourth payment on this lease).

Whatever money factor and residual were in effect in August will apply. I don't remember if they're were any incentives. You can't possibly qualify for the current (November) incentives because you picked up the car on Aug. 17 and that's the date your warranty started.

Good luck!


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Ninong said:


> The acquisition fee is never described as "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee." Never.


Curious, in your experience, what does it show up as?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> Yeah. seems random. The first version of the lease agreement they sent back in September had the same date. It could be that was the date they finally got to do the paperwork,


That's right. That's the date they ran it through but it's not a correct date because your factory warranty started on August 17. Since BMWFS will be the legal owner (lessor) of this vehicle, their ownership interest shouldn't start after that date.

When they do this over, they should probably date it on the last date you were in this country and let it go at that. They will still need to collect the October payment and probably the November payment.

Yes, it's true that the lease acquisition fee happens to be $925 but it is disclosed as an acquisition fee, never as "GA New Vehicle Arb Fee."

Do they show the correct license & registration fees for California? Is the use tax they included in your payment correct for your county in California? Did you calculate the money factor yet? What is it?


----------



## djsaad1 (Sep 3, 2012)

This whole thing sounds sketchy to me, I would have been so frustrated by now that I would have probably have just told them I am moving on and don't want the car anymore. 

I would calculate what the monthly figure your original deal was supposed to be, and tell them send me the paperwork with this payment or I am not signing. Let them deal with the problem, I doubt they want a slightly used car back.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> Curious, in your experience, what does it show up as?


It shows up as acquisition fee.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

In California, both the acquisition fee and the "doc fee" are taxed. They can be paid as part of the total drive-offs or they can be rolled into the cap.

"GA New Vehicle Arb Fee" obviously describes a Georgia fee of some sort.


----------



## Brian R. (Sep 5, 2002)

Ninong said:


> P.S. -- Anybody: Do PCD cars get unloaded in Brunswick first to clear Customs and then get trucked up to Spartanburg?


All PCD cars get dropped at Brunswick.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Brian R. said:


> All PCD cars get dropped at Brunswick.


Thanks. That's what I thought; just wanted to be sure.


----------



## djsaad1 (Sep 3, 2012)

skier said:


> UNBELIEVABLE! Classic example of why working with ED experienced CA is so important for smooth ED.


To his defense, he supposedly did work with an experienced ED CA, that is also a sponsor of this forum.

If this was a random CA, I would somewhat understand this.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

skier said:


> UNBELIEVABLE! Classic example of why working with ED experienced CA is so important for smooth ED.





djsaad1 said:


> To his defense, he supposedly did work with an experienced ED CA, that is also a sponsor of this forum.
> 
> If this was a random CA, I would somewhat understand this.


Yes, he did work with a Bimmerfest sponsor and he did request PCD, but just so people don't jump to the wrong conclusions, seeing that he lives in California, he's not working with a West Coast Bimmerfest sponsor.


----------



## Brian R. (Sep 5, 2002)

Regardless of the outcome I'd reach out to Tim330i right away with the details via PM. If I'd be promoting a sponsor and they blew it this bad I would want to protect my brand.


----------



## RKA (Dec 1, 2002)

Find out when the car arrived at port and whether any work was done. If it's been sitting for more than a week, hang the 4th lease payment on the dealer. They should have called to schedule the PCD delivery and if it's been sitting a month, I was ask them to buck up.


----------



## bimmer335is (Nov 27, 2010)

I can guess which CA is this based on 750 over invoice quote, GA and MF markup. Bimmerfesters sponsors do not mean why don't squeeze maximum profit out of each customer, at the end, it is a for profits organization and sales model. Some of us will still choose site sponsor even they charge a higher price, this could be because 1) they expect better service/ no hassle transaction , 2) loyal customer, bought car before from them, 3)recommendations from others. OP is a victim of purchase agreement, contract is a contract regardless it's verbal, email or hard copy paper. Dealership means to make money through all channels, but they will have to obey the law at least in the States. OP should not worry too much, he will get the original contract or better at the end, but the frustration he dealt with was unforgettable. Good luck OP!


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

bimmer335is said:


> I can guess which CA is this based on 750 over invoice quote, GA and MF markup. Bimmerfesters sponsors do not mean why don't squeeze maximum profit out of each customer, at the end, it is a for profits organization and sales model. Some of us will still choose site sponsor even they charge a higher price, this could be because 1) they expect better service/ no hassle transaction , 2) loyal customer, bought car before from them, 3)recommendations from others. OP is a victim of purchase agreement, contract is a contract regardless it's verbal, email or hard copy paper. Dealership means to make money through all channels, but they will have to obey the law at least in the States. OP should not worry too much, he will get the original contract or better at the end, but the frustration he dealt with was unforgettable. Good luck OP!


Thank you! I was really not going into this wanting to nickel and dime. For exactly the reasons you mentioned. I wanted a fair, clear and honest, hassle-free transaction.

To respond to some of critiques and questions I got since started this thread.

Going with an east coast dealer while living in California was purely decision of convenience and my special situation. Actually if I have gone with a Socal dealer, I would've saved a little bit of money based on the quotes I got. Again, I picked a CA that was recommended and a sponsor.

Not escalating and throwing a ruckus until now. Some suggesting I should make all these calls and keep bugging them. there is really two-fold, one is I thought I trusted the CA and I thought I had time 10 weeks. The more important point, I thought they had higher incentive to straighten things out and get my money. If you they don't care to fix the lease in timely manner, may be they don't care enough to take my money. I can take it some place else. Like many people, I am really busy between family and working 16-hour days. Even with that, I would reach out every few days. I preferred to do everything in writing (email & SMS) for exactly these kinds of situations.

Again, it's not really about a standoff. They never said, 'no thats not what we agreed on'. They simply said NOTHING. 'we're busy, we're busy. we will get back to you. we are finalizing today'. even when I asked them simply to send the updates by email first so I make sure I don't have any questions. they couldn't do that. it took them 2.5 months from PO date to send the first lease agreement which didn't even have the milage and MSD I clearly requested. Then it took them another 1.5 months to send a second agreement which only had MSD addressed, not the milage, and none of the other questions marks.

I didn't out the CA because I want to give them one final chance to make this right. I am not making any more phone calls or emails. I sent one final email to the CA, an email to BMWNA. If they don't resolve it this week, clarify all the questions and send a correct lease agreement by Friday, I would have to consult with a lawyer and walk away. As far as I am concerned, they are not upholding their part of the deal.

It's week 9, and I Was told PCD is 10 weeks. I haven't received any communication about where the car is. I have a feeling they are dropping the ball on this too, and the lease issue will probably delay this even further. The thing is, I have a closing window where I can travel to pickup the car. I won't be able to travel in December as we're expecting newborn. So whoever is responsible for the delay will have to ship it to home at no cost to me, and cover the lease payments for the delay period.

I checked on the website and it is showing that is 'getting final touches' stage or something. Would I get more details if I call the 800#?


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

A quick update. Haven't heard back from dealership but I expect to hear back from the CA on Wednesday.

I reviewed the paper trail and started to research my options. Some folks are suggesting:

1- I have the legal right not to sign a backdated agreement certainly not one that is backdated 2.5 months. 

2- I never agreed to purchase the vehicle in cash. When submitting the credit application back in July, I was asked specifically how I was financing it, and I specifically asked for 36mo/12k miles lease. My credit application was approved. So I am not obligated to purchase the car if the dealer failed to provide the appropriate paperwork and file it in time.

3- I was also told when starting this process that because the lease numbers weren't out, I can lock the delivery date and then when the lease terms come out, I can cancel the order if I don't like them. But I never got lease terms when I asked.


----------



## djsaad1 (Sep 3, 2012)

I don't see how you are legally obligated to pay them anything, there should be no reason why you couldn't walk away now. They took the risk of you not signing before you left for ED.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

You should be able to cancel at any point before you actually accept delivery, especially if you haven't signed the contract yet. In California you can cancel at any time before delivery without owing a dime. If you did put up a deposit in California, the dealer would have to refund it to you.

I don't know what the laws are in the state where you placed your order but if you didn't give them a deposit and didn't sign a correct contract yet, then you have nothing to worry about. No dealer in any state bothers to enforce a contract if the customer backs out before taking delivery. In some states the dealer is allowed to retain the deposit but that's not true in California... but you didn't order your car in California.

You have to remind your client advisor of the correct terms that you and he agreed to when you placed your order and he has a responsibility to review the lease contract before it is sent to you for your signature to make sure everything is correct, including the money factor and the number of miles per year.

*Dept. of Corrections:* I forgot this was a European Delivery! The above only applies to non-European Delivery deals.

At this point you have to inform your client advisor of the correct terms that you and he agreed to and ask him to make sure your lease agreement is correct before it is sent to you for your signature. I am confident that it is in the best interest of your client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor, as well as his dealership, that this matter be resolved to your satisfaction. And you can take that to the bank. If the matter is resolved satisfactorily, and I suspect it will be, then there would be no need to reveal the identity of the client advisor whose dealership support team dropped the ball on this deal.

To repeat my previous advice, I think the contract should be dated Aug. 15, two days before you took European Delivery in Munich. You pay the first, third and fourth payments, BMWFS pays the second payment. The reason you have to pay the October and November payments now is because BMWFS cannot accept a lease contract in default. The dealership makes up an excuse for why they misplaced the contract. BMWFS begins billing you with the December payment.


----------



## Bikie (May 2, 2004)

I wonder why, when you seem to have plenty of time for posting here, yet you cannot find the time to discuss this matter with BMW Finance,the Dealers general Manager and or BMW Customer relations. No real solutions here only unvetted advice. Been on this board 11 years and have never heard a problem like yours?


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Bikie said:


> I wonder why, when you seem to have plenty of time for posting here, yet you cannot find the time to discuss this matter with BMW Finance,the Dealers general Manager and or BMW Customer relations. No real solutions here only unvetted advice. Been on this board 9 years and have never heard a problem like yours?


His first step is to attempt to resolve it with his client advisor. Only if that is not satisfactory should he then proceed to the General Sales Manager (if they have one) or General Manager.

If that does not resolve the matter to his satisfaction he could then contact BMW of North America. They will refer him back to the dealership and send the dealership a notification asking that they resolve the matter. They don't resolve such matters with the customer, the dealership does. They do ask the dealership to "resolve the matter." And they expect the dealership to keep them informed.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Bikie said:


> I wonder why, when you seem to have plenty of time for posting here, yet you cannot find the time to discuss this matter with BMW Finance,the Dealers general Manager and or BMW Customer relations. No real solutions here only unvetted advice. Been on this board 9 years and have never heard a problem like yours?


I tried to reach GM twice last week and haven't heard back. I called BMWFS I was told they can't do anything since they don't have anything for me there and I need to work the dealer and BMWNA. I emailed BMWNA and they responded saying they assigned a person to this issue and they will contact me.

as far as I am concerned the ball is in their court. I don't k ow what good me calling everyday and bouncing between different parties will do. I shouldn't be working for it. They should be.

It's mind boggling how something that's supposed to be so straight forward gets screwed up like this.

I am hoping this thread can help folks in the future who find themselves in similar situation. Bottom line, dont leave for ED unless you have signed lease agreement in hand.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> I called BMWFS I was told they can't do anything since they don't have anything for me there and I need to work the dealer and BMWNA.


Correct. As far as BMWFS is concerned, you're not one of their customers yet, so there is nothing for them to talk to you about.



> I emailed BMWNA and they responded saying they assigned a person to this issue and they will contact me.


They will contact the dealer and ask the dealer to "resolve the matter" with you and keep them informed.



> ...as far as I am concerned the ball is in their court.


True, but it's in *your best interest* to see to it that this is cleared up so that you can pick up your car at the Performance Center without delay.

You said you will be talking to the client advisor Wednesday (tomorrow). If that doesn't resolve matters to your satisfaction, meaning he doesn't agree to the exact terms you guys agreed to before he went on vacation, then you proceed immediately to the General Sales Manager, or General Manager, by phone. Leave a detailed message if you are unable to connect immediately explaining the urgency of this situation.

If you are still not satisfied by Friday morning, call BMW of North America on the phone and ask for their assistance in resolving this matter so that you can pick up your car at the PC without delay.
Good luck!


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> Bottom line, dont leave for ED unless you have signed lease agreement in hand.


*Very true!*

You have two main issues to resolve. The money factor was marked up by .0002 and your paper trail shows the client advisor agreed to no mark-up on the money factor. You requested 12,000 miles per year and the contract says 10,000 miles. Verify if they are using the correct residual percent for August. Right now the residual is 60% for 10,000 and 59% for 12,000. The lease they sent you shows 10,000 miles but 59% residual. That would only be correct if the residual for 10,000 was 59% back in August, making the residual 58% for 12,000 miles. If the correct residual for 10,000 miles was 60% back in August (which I suspect is true), then they have the residual correct as 59% but forgot to enter 12,000 in their computer in place of 10,000 which is probably in there already by default.

So I believe you will end up with only one real issue -- the MF mark-up. If he agreed to no mark-up, then tell him to fix that. The rest is just a typo, changing 10,000 to 12,000 on the lease. BMWFS would check that anyway and bounce it for correction if the dealer tried to cash it showing 10,000 when they used the residual for 12,000.

You definitely have to pay the dealership for all payments that are due from you and that includes the November payment. BMWFS won't accept a contract that is already in default and they don't have enough time to bill you for the November payment. That's the initial payment due in August as part of the total drive-offs, along with the third payment due in October and the fourth payment due in November. Then BMWFS will start billing you in December for the fifth payment. There is nothing unusual about that except that it usually only happens with a finance contract that has to be redone for whatever reason and the first payment, the one that was due 30 days after the contract date, is now past due. The customer pays that payment to the dealer and BMWFS starts billing him with the second payment. They simply won't accept a contract that is in default. You pay the dealer the past due payments and then BMWFS adjusts the funding to the dealer.


----------



## poleposition (Feb 14, 2005)

If in fact you are not legally bound to anything, and i dont see how you are if nothing is signed, i would walk away. Consider it a lesson learned, and start over with a new dealer. I've been on this board a long time as others have stated and I have never heard of an issue like this. I still really cant believe its even possible to take delivery at the welt without signing and settling beforehand. Ive done 3 ED's and just cant fathom this sequence of events. Walk away and start over. If you feel the need to waste your time with anyone, make it someone at BMWNA. Curious to see the outcome of this one.


----------



## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

I'd be happy just doing the ED. My wife couldn't give a damn about the car. She loves the whole pampered experience and thus allows me to lease a car I have no business leasing. 

Cars are a dime a dozen (not quite literally). At this point I'd be doing exactly what you've been doing - it isn't your duty to bug the dealership. Either they make good by the end of the week or you go elsewhere. Right now I'd be exploring Audi's Euro Delivery just in case. Hang in there. Most of us are in your corner. I just hope this doesn't turn out to be the very CA who I've been praising and recommending for the past year.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Hahah. man. Guys! please tell me I am being punked! Please!

I got an email clarifying the 925 as acquisition fee. The milage was a typo. And that MF markup was never discussed (may be I am crazy).

GET THIS? the car 'just arrived at the dealership!' WHAT???!! I forwarded him the email on September 15th, a week after dropping off the car asking PDC and he said it's not too late, I will reroute it!

so wow, 9 weeks! to get delivered to east coast?

OK IT GETS EFFING BETTER!

I call BMWNA, and they give me these dates (remember I dropped off the car on 9/8):
10/12 arrive at port
10/14 cleared port
10/20 cleared VPC
10/21 delivered to dealership

so they had the car for 1 month now sitting in the lot! while I am emailing and texting the CA about the paperwork and him telling me 'it's coming, it's coming'!!!


----------



## argh (May 25, 2015)

wwnomad said:


> Hahah. man. Guys! please tell me I am being punked! Please!
> 
> I got an email clarifying the 925 as acquisition fee. The milage was a typo. And that MF markup was never discussed (may be I am crazy).
> 
> ...


Have been following this thread for a while and I am speechless. Sounds like this a good moment to reveal the CA and dealership in question, because this is turning into a tragicomedy.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

argh said:


> Have been following this thread for a while and I am speechless. Sounds like this a good moment to reveal the CA and dealership in question, because this is turning into a tragicomedy.


We will be talking tomorrow. He is saying he wasn't aware the car was delivered. I want to take this as far as I can to see where it ends up.

What's been holding me back is the belief that the CA is a good guy and this is a result of a dysfunctional dealership, and personal/life distractions that the CA has gone through. But I have been hearing tidbits from people that this has happened, but to a lesser degree.

I believe in a fair deal and the business making profit. I am not sure at this rate, if the business deserves any profit at all. They should be happy if they break even and end it in good terms


----------



## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

I've heard some ED screw ups before, but this take the cake. Sorry to hear your plight.

Being 99.99% sure who your CA is, I know that his dealership does a MF markup which is nonnegotiable. Apparently, that how they fund their finance shop. The CA has publicly posted this fact here at the Fest. I'm surprised if he offered no MF markup. Then again, my info could be dated, so things may have changed . :dunno:


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

dunderhi said:


> I've heard some ED screw ups before, but this take the cake. Sorry to hear your plight.
> 
> Being 99.99% sure who your CA is, I know that his dealership does a MF markup which is nonnegotiable. Apparently, that how they fund their finance shop. The CA has publicly posted this fact here at the Fest. I'm surprised if he offered no MF markup. Then again, my info could be dated, so things may have changed . :dunno:


Just a couple of hours ago, 4 months after this all started, he comes out and says he consistently charges a standard 0.0002 markup and we never discussed it. I went back and confirmed that there was no explicit 'I want no markup. Ok that's the deal', even when I asked multiple times about lease terms, I always asked for buy rate and he never mentioned the markup. I was strung along past the point of no return whether intentionally or not. Honestly, it was technically my bad on this one because all other dealers I spoke with were fine with that, and the way this was handled, my brain believed it was going to be whatever the standard lease terms that BMWFS puts out.

Related to knowing who the CA is. People have asked me to just come out and reveal the dealer. The tricky thing on this forum is the dealer on here is strongly tied to the person (CA), and I would never out a person publicly unless I feel they were malicious or intended to behave recklessly. I work in this field and I know first hand that once you put a person's name out publicly on the internet tied to anything negative. it's there forever and can have much bigger damage regardless of who was truly at fault or the specific circumstance.

Having said that, if the dealer as an organization doesn't stand accountable and take responsibility of this and resolve it in a fair way to me, I will do everything I can to let as many people know of my experience and to steer away from them.

At this point, it is clear they messed up big. It was compounded between delays, lack of communications, and errors, and lack of explanation. I kept asking of what that $925 is and what that fee is, and months later I am told it's acquisition fee but it's not listed under that line item as if it's no big deal and I should've know. I am told 10k miles is on there as typo and everything else is correct and I can just 'scratch it and put 12k miles' like its ok. One, why didn't someone tell me that months ago, two is that normal practice? and I expected to decipher this puzzle. In my emails, I asked specific questions, and never got a response. All I got was, 'I will get back to you' and that turned to 'Finance Manager is finalizing this'

The huge icing on the cake (not sure how it will be addressed), is PCD is gone, and car sat there collecting dust. Some people pointed out that it's 3 weeks, and not 4 weeks. The reality is, it would've been 3 weeks if lease has been correct and signed and I can fly tomorrow and get it. The reality, it will be at least another week for the lease to be corrected and mailed for signature. funny how the car would be sitting in the lot while I am email and texting, getting told to wait a little longer. 

Bottom line, dealer messed up big time, and I am starting to think it would make more financial sense to take the car into inventory than try to do whats right. But we will see how that unfolds.


----------



## djsaad1 (Sep 3, 2012)

If you are going to move forward with this, I would get them to pay the third payment. You paid the first, bmwna paid the second, and dealer should pay the third for these screw ups. 

As I said before though, I would drop all communication with this dealership and move on. Let them get stuck with a slightly used car.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

poleposition said:


> If in fact you are not legally bound to anything, and i dont see how you are if nothing is signed, i would walk away.


It's not that simple. It's true that he did not sign a contract with the dealership prior to leaving for Munich because, as he was told by his client advisor, don't worry about that you can sign it after you return home, we do that all the time at our dealership. 

However, he did sign a delivery receipt for the car at the BMW Welt and he did sign for the German temporary tourist registration in his name. So it's a little complicated.



Gluhwein said:


> I just hope this doesn't turn out to be the very CA who I've been praising and recommending for the past year.


Did you pay a markup of .0002 on your lease money factor? The OP was just now told by his client advisor that they automatically add a .0002 money factor markup on all of their leases without exception. At least that's what they're claiming today.

Sometimes I think some customers shop for a car, especially one for European Delivery, based on what they read on forums like this one about what they should pay "over invoice" without remembering that there are other things that are important. One thing that is important is having a clear understanding BEFORE you commit to anything of exactly what you will be paying it total, not just "over invoice." And if it's a European Delivery deal, get everything in writing well before you leave for Munich. Long before you leave for Munich. And if you're doing business long-distance, get the lease agreement FedEx'd to you at least a week, maybe even 10 days, before you leave. Don't let them tell you the day before you depart to just not worry about it, our office is all backed up and they'll get it to you after you return. Enjoy your trip.

One more point to remember. Not all client advisors/Bimmerfest sponsors are created equal. Some of them appear to have very little authority or control over the deals they are allowed to offer.



wwnomad said:


> Hahah. man. Guys! please tell me I am being punked! Please!
> 
> I got an email clarifying the 925 as acquisition fee. The milage was a typo. And that MF markup was never discussed (may be I am crazy).


Exactly as expected as to the lease agreement they sent you. The residual is correct, it's just the 10,000 miles that is a typo as far as they're concerned. Yes, you can draw a line with a ballpoint pen through the 10,000 miles and write in 12,000 and initial it.

Remember next time to get everything in writing from "them" so that you don't have to rely on your personal "paper trail." A good paper trail is one that came from "them." And don't go with this guy next time.



> GET THIS? the car 'just arrived at the dealership!' WHAT???!! I forwarded him the email on September 15th, a week after dropping off the car asking PDC and he said it's not too late, I will reroute it!


Do you have an email from the client advisor promising to reroute the car for PCD?



> I call BMWNA, and they give me these dates (remember I dropped off the car on 9/8):
> 10/12 arrive at port
> 10/14 cleared port
> 10/20 cleared VPC
> ...


That's really awful on the part of your client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor. No excuse for something like that. It would have been easy for him to check on your car's exact location.



wwnomad said:


> We will be talking tomorrow. He is saying he wasn't aware the car was delivered. I want to take this as far as I can to see where it ends up.
> 
> What's been holding me back is the belief that the CA is a good guy and this is a result of a dysfunctional dealership, and personal/life distractions that the CA has gone through. But I have been hearing tidbits from people that this has happened, but to a lesser degree.
> 
> I believe in a fair deal and the business making profit. I am not sure at this rate, if the business deserves any profit at all. They should be happy if they break even and end it in good terms


I understand how disappointed you feel. Anybody would.



dunderhi said:


> I've heard some ED screw ups before, but this take the cake. Sorry to hear your plight.
> 
> Being 99.99% sure who your CA is, I know that his dealership does a MF markup which is nonnegotiable.


Some dealerships are like that. However, all dealerships that claim that are not being 100% truthful because they will and have made exceptions. They just don't allow their salespeople to cut the markup. Sometimes those very same dealerships are the ones that tell everybody they charge a $599 "doc fee" to everybody but that's something else that is not true. Sometimes they charge some people (especially those calling from California, only $199 or $199.50). In California they definitely charge everybody the same "doc fee" and it's $80. You can count on that. In some of those other unregulatged states, well, look up the word "unregulated" in the dictionary. 



> Apparently, that how they fund their finance shop. The CA has publicly posted this fact here at the Fest. I'm surprised if he offered no MF markup. Then again, my info could be dated, so things may have changed . :dunno:


I don't know. I do know that he might not get much lease business from this particular forum if he advertises that he will not match money factor terms against other Bimmerfest sponsors who do offer no markup on the money factor. A money factor markup is not a problem if it's part of a total package and the total package is acceptable to the customer. We had a customer a couple of weeks ago who bragged about getting a lease that saved him at least $3,000 compared to his local quotes but then was very upset to learn that there was a markup on the money factor. He wanted the $3,000 cheaper selling price as well as no money factor markup. It's a total deal and he still saved thousands compared to other quotes. He did quite well. 



wwnomad said:


> Just a couple of hours ago, 4 months after this all started, he comes out and says he consistently charges a standard 0.0002 markup and we never discussed it. I went back and confirmed that there was no explicit 'I want no markup. Ok that's the deal', even when I asked multiple times about lease terms, I always asked for buy rate and he never mentioned the markup. I was strung along past the point of no return whether intentionally or not. Honestly, it was technically my bad on this one because all other dealers I spoke with were fine with that, and the way this was handled, my brain believed it was going to be whatever the standard lease terms that BMWFS puts out.


Well, now you know. Next time make sure to get everything in writing from the dealership at the time the order is placed instead of waiting until days before you leave. Many people seem to make that mistake. Or they post that they ordered this great car at a great price but then ask on the forum how they should approach "negotiating terms" now that the car is at the dealership and ready to be picked up. What?



> I can just 'scratch it and put 12k miles' like its ok. One, why didn't someone tell me that months ago, two is that normal practice?


Nothing they did is "normal." However, it's okay to correct the typo on the miles since the residual is correct. Just change it and initial it. If you were sitting there at the dealership, they would run off a new correct one but you're 3,000 miles away. So just fix it yourself to speed things up.  That's assuming you accept the .0002 MF markup. When you talk to your client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor again, don't forget to bring up the issue of the October and November payments. The October payment is already past due and it is illegal for BMWFS to purchase a contract that is in default. The November payment will be due soon and it should be paid along with the October payment to the dealership so that there will be no additional delay in funding this lease. Then BMWFS can begin billing you in December.

How you deal with your client advisor and his dealership is entirely your problem. I really can't advise you on that end of it at this stage in the game. I don't know what would be fair compensation for the mess they have put you through.



> I asked specific questions, and never got a response. All I got was, 'I will get back to you' and that turned to 'Finance Manager is finalizing this'


That's a terrible way to run a business.



> The huge icing on the cake (not sure how it will be addressed), is PCD is gone, and car sat there collecting dust. Some people pointed out that it's 3 weeks, and not 4 weeks.


How can the client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor explain something like that to his customer? I can't imagine how he would do that? Maybe the same way he kept telling you to not worry about doing the paperwork before you left for Munich because you can just wait to sign it when you return because they do that all the time.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

*Here's your present situation:*

(1) You have nothing in writing from them promising anything about the money factor.

(2) They did not get the lease agreement to you for your signature prior to your departure for Munich. They told you not to worry about it because you can just sign it when you return and they do that all the time at their dealership. It's something you should make a point to bring up if this goes to BMWNA. Also, don't forget to bring up the point about being misled for weeks about the whereabouts of your car when it has been at their dealership since Oct. 21. I'm sure BMWNA would be interested in that, too.

(3) Communication with the client advisor was ridiculous throughout this experience. He repeatedly misled you on what was going on. He repeatedly told you not to worry about the paperwork.

(4) This is *very important*, do you have an email from the client advisor telling you he would have the car sent to the Performance Center for delivery there?

(5) If you want to argue the money factor, you have to do that with the GSM or GM, not the client advisor who pretends to know nothing and who obviously has no authority to make his own ED deals.

(6) Don't forget to bring up the issue that the lease contract they want you to sign is already in default. You (or somebody) will have to pay the October payment (and probably the November payment as well) to the dealership because BMWFS does not accept contracts that are already in default. They only accept them if the dealership has already collected all payments that are in arrears. You may have to explain this to your client advisor, who may not even understand this.

Good luck and I'm terribly sorry you won't be able to enjoy the Performance Center Delivery experience, especially since this may be your only opportunity to do something like that since you live in California. And next time, stick with California Bimmerfest sponsors who won't mess things up.


----------



## bimmer335is (Nov 27, 2010)

wwnomad said:


> Hahah. man. Guys! please tell me I am being punked! Please!
> 
> I got an email clarifying the 925 as acquisition fee. The milage was a typo. And that MF markup was never discussed (may be I am crazy).
> 
> ...


Haha, like I said this is how dealership makes profits. You can dislike them, but don't hate them. Do you really believe the dealership will only make 750 over invoice for each car? They will squeeze any amount of money at any stage. The reputable CA tried post sales and typo tactics. When u r ready to sign the paper, there will be alarm, wheel tire insurance, typo again, and many more. One thing the dealer won't mess up is the government tax, they don't have the courage to play with government, lol. Keep us posted.


----------



## The Sage (Nov 27, 2014)

While you go around in circles with the dealer on the terms of the lease, the bottomline is this is the dealers fault. The lease should have been negotiated, approved and signed prior to the ED at the Welt. 

I don't believe it was mentioned anywhere in this thread, but did you sign a Purchase Order for the car prior to it being built?


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

The Sage said:


> .
> I don't believe it was mentioned anywhere in this thread, but did you sign a Purchase Order for the car prior to it being built?


Yes. I did. I remember when reading that document that it was a really odd purchase order to make especially that pricing and financing is not included in there. You sign this thing with BMWNA and the. Seperately you deal with pricing and financing with dealer, what if that falls through. I guess it wouldn't be bad under normal circumstances because the order would just be canceled. My case it was a little bit extreme. But I do remember feeling something was off signing that thing.


----------



## wwnomad (Nov 6, 2015)

Ninong said:


> (1) You have nothing in writing from them promising anything about the money factor.


This is my bad. I spoke with 6 dealers and five of them. The last five did no markup and somehow I didn't bring I failed to include 'buy rate mf' in the first email to this dealer. lesson learned for sure.



Ninong said:


> (4) This is *very important*, do you have an email from the client advisor telling you he would have the car sent to the Performance Center for delivery there?


Yes, I do have an email. The dealer is assuming responsibility and working on a satisfactory resolution to all this.


----------



## BimmerBahn (Nov 24, 2005)

wwnomad said:


> Hahah. man. Guys! please tell me I am being punked! Please!
> 
> I got an email clarifying the 925 as acquisition fee. The milage was a typo. And that MF markup was never discussed (may be I am crazy).
> 
> ...


Dude, you're being taken for a ride. I'd politely call the dealership and speak with the GM...time for them to cut out all the BS. You need to decide if you even want to finish the transaction....me, I'd tell them to pound sand and take my business elsewhere.

The fact that it's been at the dealership for 3 weeks without your CA knowing seems _very_ odd...smells fishy to me.

Cut your losses and go buy from one of the many west coast sponsors who will take care of you.

Cheers!


----------



## The Sage (Nov 27, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> Yes. I did. I remember when reading that document that it was a really odd purchase order to make especially that pricing and financing is not included in there. You sign this thing with BMWNA and the. Seperately you deal with pricing and financing with dealer, what if that falls through. I guess it wouldn't be bad under normal circumstances because the order would just be canceled. My case it was a little bit extreme. But I do remember feeling something was off signing that thing.


The PO is basically documentation that a customer is getting a car outside of the dealer allocation. It's not attached to a purchase or lease contract. The customer is ordering the car, as opposed to the dealer.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

wwnomad said:


> Yes, I do have an email. *The dealer is assuming responsibility and working on a satisfactory resolution to all this.*


This is what is important to you at this point -- not what any of us think. Make your decisions based on what you want to do.

I know you wanted to pick it up at the Performance Center but your client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor dropped the ball on this as well as almost everything else. If you reach an agreement with the dealership that is acceptable to you, then that should be the end of it. You should not provide any further details of your agreement because there is no need for any of us to advise you on what we think about it. It's over with. Just come back and post that the matter has been resolved to your satisfaction and ignore any requests for further details or that you name the client advisor. I'm sure many people on the forum will want you to name the client advisor but if you do that, you lose a lot of your leverage in reaching a satisfactory conclusion to this disaster of an experience.

Good luck!

P.S. -- It's okay to tell us all about it if you're totally unhappy with the final agreement. No doubt your client advisor is aware of this thread.


----------



## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me like the dealership should be wanting to get this done and out of the way asap. They really messed this up. Even if you take the PO as a forerunner to the actual contract, you have no signed contract as to terms. No money factor/interest rate, no final agreed on price, no end date when it must be paid off. Not really seeing how this is legally your car at this point. Hence not your problem. The dealer on the other hand has a used car that they want new car money for. They may need to explain to BMWNA how this happened, also who ever is in charge of the ED end of things is going to have issues with this. The paper work signed in Germany was for a car he did not own. If I were the dealership I'd want to get this mess out the door and closed down fast. N4S


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

need4speed said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here... The paper work signed in Germany was for a car he did not own. If I were the dealership I'd want to get this mess out the door and closed down fast. N4S


I think you have a good idea of just how messed up this actually is. It's a European Delivery that the dealership paid for but not by cashing a BMWFS lease agreement because they didn't even bother to prepare the lease agreement until 12 days after he picked up the car at the Welt.

It's a PCD that was promised by the client advisor but that the client advisor apparently didn't follow up on. It's a car that was in stock at the dealership for 3 weeks before the client advisor even knew it was there and while the client advisor kept telling his customer he knew nothing. Oh, wait... it's here. No wonder I couldn't find it. Oh, well... I guess you'll just have to come here to pick it up.

I agree that the dealership, at this stage of the game -- and it has been a game, will want to do everything in their power to put an end to this mess as quickly as possible so that it doesn't go any higher. They don't want the car and they don't want to have to explain to BMWNA why they were unable to "resolve" this matter to the customer's "complete satisfaction."


----------



## Northcar (Sep 21, 2005)

..... of course just remember to give all 5s, as requested, when you get the customer satisfaction survey.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Northcar said:


> ..... of course just remember to give all 5s, as requested, when you get the customer satisfaction survey.


Do they survey European Delivery customers?

P.S. -- I think they changed it from 5's to 10's now.


----------



## Diesel Power (Oct 2, 2010)

Only head one side (OP's). If OP is spot on, then CA/sponsor should incur a significant ding in their armor. It's hard to imagine a reasonable justification exists for what appears to have occurred in this particular case.


----------



## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

Seriously, they really need to waive the payment for the month the car sat on the lot. The good news is that you have some extra miles to play with on your lease.


----------



## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Diesel Power said:


> Only heard one side (OP's). If OP is spot on, then CA/sponsor should incur a significant ding in their armor. It's hard to imagine a reasonable justification exists for what appears to have occurred in this particular case.


You know what, *DieselPower*, I had some reservations myself when I first got involved in this thread wondering how this could possibly be true and whether maybe the OP was not providing the full story. But guess, what? All we have to do is go by the dates and the facts that are paper and forget about the dispute over the agreed upon figures, okay?

Both the OP and another Bimmerfester who just happened to comment on this thread beginning with post #6 are dealing with the same client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor. Did they tell me this? No, they didn't because both have promised, for the time being anyway, not to identify the client advisor or the name of his dealership. So how do I know they are dealing with the same guy? Because I can read between the lines and all of that is in this thread from both of them!

See post #9: *GA* New Veh Arb Fee of $925, what is this? Actually it turned out to be the lease acquisition fee even though the lease has N/A on the line for acquisition fee. Must be something unique to Georgia?

Just for kicks, check out something in post #26 and compare it with post #1. Do you see what I'm talking about? I'm talking about the $599 doc fee in post #26 charged to that Bimmerfester and the $199.50 doc fee charged to the OP. Why do I find that "interesting?" Because, according to the second Bimmerfester, he was told by "his" client advisor that the $599 doc fee was not negotiable (fair enough) but the OP paid only $199.50 doc fee. I'm 99% sure they're dealing with the same client advisor, whether they realize it or not! 

See post #42 where the OP tells us that he just figured out the money factor and it appears to be marked up by .0002 over base rate. That's correct, it is marked up by .0002 over the base rate and that's allowed. However, whether OP was confused or not about this as regards the money factor, let's not forget that the lease agreement was dated Aug. 29 while he was still in Europe. He didn't drop off his car until Sep. 8. He departed on Aug. 15 and picked up the car at the Welt on Aug. 17. He says he kept asking his client advisor when he would receive the lease to sign and the client advisor kept telling him their office was "backed up," finally telling him not to worry about it, they would send it to him after he returned from Europe because they "do that all the time." What??

After the OP returned from Europe and after he finally received the lease agreement to sign, he noticed that it is dated Aug. 29. He also noticed that it shows 10,000 miles/year instead of 12,000. This has been resolved because the dealership admits they made a mistake on that but since they did use the correct residual all he has to do is draw a line through 10,000 and write in 12,000 and initial it. That's okay actually.

So the lease isn't even dated until two weeks after he left for Germany. It didn't get it until sometime after he returned from Germany. He refused to sign it because he says he thought he was getting the buy rate money factor. Would you like to know what he thought that? Because he was also dealing with a client advisor/Bimmerfest sponsor in Southern California who told him he would get the buy rate money factor and who quoted him a very good deal. The other Bimmerfest sponsor, the one he went with, knew he was competing against the California Bimmerfest sponsor when he offered his deal which appeared, on the surface anyway, to be $150 cheaper (it's actually several hundred dollars more) and because the OP thought it would be a great idea to take delivery at the Performance Center and then take the car to visit relatives on the East Coast before driving back across the country.

Now, let's fast forward to more recent events. Nov. 10, the OP is still trying to locate his car. He emails and texts the client advisor almost daily asking him where is my car and when will I be able to pick it up at the Performance Center? He says the client advisor sent him repeated messages telling him "it's coming." The OP finally calls BMW ED and they tell him his car was delivered to the dealership, not the PC, on October 21. Three weeks ago!

He calls his client advisor and informs him that his car has been at the dealership for the past three weeks! The client advisor was surprised to find out that the car was at his dealership all that time while he was telling the customer "it's coming."

That's where we stand right now with the OP and his _situation_. He has posted that the dealership has promised to work things out with him. So we will see how that turns out. Hopefully the OP will be a little bit satisfied with the results of whatever compromise they reach. If he is, then I have advised him to not identify the client advisor or comment any more other than to say the matter has been resolved. But I'm not that constrained and do you want to know why I'm a little bit upset over this deal? Because I have figured out there both of these guys are dealing with the same client advisor. Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me if the second guy, who is also expecting to take Performance Center delivery, is also disappointed. Why? Because the second guy is also being given the runaround about the exact location of his car that was supposed to go to the Performance Center. Will it surprise me if he's disappointed, too? Absolutely not. I'm waiting for that to happen and I fully expect that it will because no one was "minding the store" while all of this was going down.

/End rant.


----------

