# DINAN for the d - Update



## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Just a heads up, DINAN is making progress with their diesel tune. See note from DINAN below.

_"I can not give out specific details but we are making progress and we do have a 335d in the shop.

Thanks!

Brian"_


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Chris, only three yrs into the "D" here in USA and NOW everyone is jumping on the Bandwagon only to see the "D" dissappear for a year and come back in a new platform and then restart allover again.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

I imagine they're going to find like everyone else that the emissions systems limit gains and increase the chances of drivability issues (DPF faults, Injector or HPFP failure, etc).


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

There is always a limit to what a "respectable" tuner can and is willing to do so they can offer a product that improves peformance without compromising reliability/driveability. I would not say our car's limiting factor is the DPF. Over the long haul the DPF in and of itself has proven to be not the most reliable piece of equipment - tune or no tune. There's a fine line when it comes to optimizing engine performance without necessarily sacraficing in the reliability dept. Remember diesel tuning is nothing new, just take a look at the Cummings diesel forum or the UK section of any BMW forum and the results/feedback regarding true tunes (evolve, smarty etc) are for the most overwhelmingly favorable. Increasing injection timing under certain load conditions, rather than increasing pump pressure across the board to deliver fuel, while at the same time manipulating boost will be the way for DINAN do this in such a way to offer decent performance gains (gains that will hopefully justify the cost) while at the same time not compromise reliability; I mean after all it's their money behind the warranty. There is no reason why our cars cannot safely be tuned for 300+ whp and 470lb ft+ of torque.


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## FormerRotor (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi, Chris, any rumors of progress from Dinan lately?

That Renntech tune is looking more and more appealing, especially since I just sold my old track wheels (other car), and the funds will be quickly reallocated to other expenses if I don't debit it from the play fund. 

Thanks for keeping tabs on it. I know we all appreciate it.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

FormerRotor said:


> Hi, Chris, any rumors of progress from Dinan lately?
> 
> That Renntech tune is looking more and more appealing, especially since I just sold my old track wheels (other car), and the funds will be quickly reallocated to other expenses if I don't debit it from the play fund.
> 
> Thanks for keeping tabs on it. I know we all appreciate it.


Nothing as of late, stopped e-mailing them once a month, but perhaps if you and others start contacting them it might light a fire.

Just keep in mind with the Renntech tune or any other resident tune that you will have to remove your ecu and send it to Renntech, in which case you will be without a car for days. In addition if the dealer overwrites you dme to do a softeware update you will have to go through the same process. Not to mention with a resident tune there is always the off chance the dealer and or bmw na will find that your cars stock operating peramiters were molested.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

cssnms said:


> Nothing as of late, stopped e-mailing them once a month, but perhaps if and others start contacting them it might light a fire.
> 
> Just keep in mind with the Renntech tune or any other resident tune that you will have to remove your ecu and send it to Renntech, in which case you will be without a car for days. In addition if the dealer overwrites you dme to do a softeware update you will have to go through the same process. Not to mention with a resident tune there is always the off chance the dealer and or bmw na will find that your cars stock operating peramiters were molested.


If the dealer does a routine software update (like they do from time to time), does that mean they will necessarily overwrite the ECU Tune? Just curious.:dunno:

I live about 3+ hours away from Renntech so going back is not a major deal to get it retuned if required.


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## CrazyINP (Dec 2, 2005)

Not sure about the BMW dealer but there are a lot of rumors on Audi Forum where dealer is noting the car has been re-flashed. Which in event you go back for warranty use dealer can reject your claim. Again those are rumors on AudiZine website.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Flyingman said:


> If the dealer does a routine software update (like they do from time to time), does that mean they will necessarily overwrite the ECU Tune? Just curious.:dunno:
> 
> I live about 3+ hours away from Renntech so going back is not a major deal to get it retuned if required.


If they perform a major software update then yes they will likely overwrite the tune.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

CrazyINP said:


> Not sure about the BMW dealer but there are a lot of rumors on Audi Forum where dealer is noting the car has been re-flashed. Which in event you go back for warranty use dealer can reject your claim. Again those are rumors on AudiZine website.


If push came to shove, YES BMWNA can tell how many times the DME has been reflashed and they can compare it against their records. If the count is different it indicates the DME was molested in some fashion which may prompt them to dig deeper and there they will find that the ecu was reflashed. All of these tuners say "no way" the dealer can tell, but none of them stand behind it.

Now of course these are worst case senarios, like in the event of some chastostrophic failure.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Chris it is great assumption that the dealer can find the NEW flash, I believe back then in 04 I modded my 02 MCS and the dealer only does read CODES only back then, but nowadays I beleive they might be able to find out. i will ask my sources and i will keep u guys posted ok


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

CrazyINP said:


> Not sure about the BMW dealer but there are a lot of rumors on Audi Forum where dealer is noting the car has been re-flashed. Which in event you go back for warranty use dealer can reject your claim. Again those are rumors on AudiZine website.


I know Ford does this. Though it typically only comes up in issues where it is some major failure such as an engine going south. I know a few people who got dinged by it and were all butt hurt over it. I personally think if anyone is going to be modding a car they should accept from the get go they might very well end up having to pay out of pocket to fix things(that in anyway can be related to the mod) that break. It is kind of like racing a car, if you can't afford to up and loose the thing at any moment then perhaps putting it in a situation that a wreck might happen and insurance will refuse to cover is a bad idea.


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## FormerRotor (Jan 22, 2012)

cssnms said:


> Nothing as of late, stopped e-mailing them once a month, but perhaps if you and others start contacting them it might light a fire.
> 
> Just keep in mind with the Renntech tune or any other resident tune that you will have to remove your ecu and send it to Renntech, in which case you will be without a car for days. In addition if the dealer overwrites you dme to do a softeware update you will have to go through the same process. Not to mention with a resident tune there is always the off chance the dealer and or bmw na will find that your cars stock operating peramiters were molested.


Indeed. That is why I would REALLY prefer Dinan. I will email them again this evening & see what they say.

JBD is may be a decent interim option, but I don't think I would go there. I want to keep the car running as long as possible, thus I would prefer going about tuning in the safER way if possible.

Snipe is right, and i dont think cssnms would disagree, any tune means hence forth you are either lucky or your own warranty (or your own lawyer  )


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

FormerRotor said:


> Indeed. That is why I would REALLY prefer Dinan. I will email them again this evening & see what they say.
> 
> JBD is may be a decent interim option, but I don't think I would go there. I want to keep the car running as long as possible, thus I would prefer going about tuning in the safER way if possible.
> 
> Snipe is right, and i dont think cssnms would disagree, any tune means hence forth you are either lucky or your own warranty (or your own lawyer  )


I wouldn't consider the JBD "unsafe," esp at the default setting I would consider a rather benign way to increase hp. The only thing it is doing is injecting more fuel into the combustion chamber, which is how tuners get the vast majority of power out of a diesel engine. Diesel engines are less complicated than a gasoline engine in that regard, where you have to worry more about AFR's etc. If you add to much fuel idiesels just blow more black smoke. There are thousands of JBD's in service and I am not aware of any problems so far, other than the dreaded limp mode when it's cranked up to 100%.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

As someone who has had diesel injectors on other cars fail and wittnessed countless destroyed motors in friends trucks, I am hesitant about diesel tunes in general. Especially diesel tunes done by people new to diesels since seen the worst happen there. I am also hesitant about upper fuel pressures and how well the injectors will last in the long term. By long term I mean well over 100k miles. But with that said I just don't see me having this car for the long term, so not sure if I care to worry about "what ifs"


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## FormerRotor (Jan 22, 2012)

Am I wrong in that a standard remap would more adjust injection duration/timing than quantity, thus adding the additional fuel without as much additional pressure? My fear more falls along the lines of long-term reliability of the major components if forced to operate at a greater pressure on a consistant basis?

Also, it is my understanding that based on the way in which the signal is manipulated, the JbD is not able to scale back the pressure increase based on load profile. Right/wrong?

If I could overcome these two items, I would probably hop on the JbD boat until the Dinan is released, but, even still, I'd rather not play beta tester for dinan either. I do, however, feel that their well-deserved reputation far overcomes the possible lack of diesel experience argument, but new product lines will always have potential for new product issues until they are tested by the masses.

Thanks for helping me develop an understanding. Keep in mind that over the course of a few weeks I went from knowing the ins and outs of my car with no pistons to knowing next to nothing about my car with no spark plugs.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

FormerRotor said:


> Am I wrong in that a standard remap would more adjust injection duration/timing than quantity, thus adding the additional fuel without as much additional pressure? My fear more falls along the lines of long-term reliability of the major components if forced to operate at a greater pressure on a consistant basis?
> 
> Also, it is my understanding that based on the way in which the signal is manipulated, the JbD is not able to scale back the pressure increase based on load profile. Right/wrong?
> 
> ...


The basic reasons you state are the basic reasons why I'd prefer to have a remap. Now whether they are valid reasons to have or not, I can't say for certain. I'd imagine anyone could take a JBD and toss it on their car and more than likely have zero issues caused by it for the life that they keep the car. I am thinking most people would be lucky if they kept their car to or past 100k miles. I figure that because just seems like many are the type to switch things up over time.


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## 4pipes (Aug 4, 2006)

It boggles my mind that tuners and their customers think that they can program a car more effectively than the engineers that designed and tested the car. Obviously, it's a game of optimization for power, efficiency, pollution, and reliability in a system that has to operate at different altitudes, temperatures, and fuel quality. I personally wouldn't want to trade one for the other.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Of course it is always a trade off for something else. Now whether that trade off will ever have an actual real life negative impact can be debated over and over.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

4pipes said:


> It boggles my mind that tuners and their customers think that they can program a car more effectively than the engineers that designed and tested the car. Obviously, it's a game of optimization for power, efficiency, pollution, and reliability in a system that has to operate at different altitudes, temperatures, and fuel quality. I personally wouldn't want to trade one for the other.


The factory tune maximizes consistent and reliable operation with significant engine protection. The tuners will change the mapping to push into areas the factory deliberately built in as operational safety cushions. Will this impact engine or drivetrain life - one persons guess is as good as another. Will it effect warranty - think that's pretty clear.

For me the 335d already has more than enough power. But then I was satisfied with my 193hp 328i. I'm already projecting that the rear ties will only last half as long as the fronts, and I'm not a particularly aggressive driver. I can't imagine anyone using the additional power a remap will give more than 0.001% of the time.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Since a tune should change partial to moderate throttle as well as WOT them I'd say usage is higher than 0.001% 

I have driven/owned my fair share of modified cars. It would be rare for a day or really drive to go by that I did not use the added power in some fashion. I do get what you are saying though, in comparisons to what the bulk of driving is that added power rarely is tapped into.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

FormerRotor said:


> Am I wrong in that a standard remap would more adjust injection duration/timing than quantity, thus adding the additional fuel without as much additional pressure? My fear more falls along the lines of long-term reliability of the major components if forced to operate at a greater pressure on a consistant basis?
> 
> Also, it is my understanding that based on the way in which the signal is manipulated, the JbD is not able to scale back the pressure increase based on load profile. Right/wrong?
> 
> ...


Wether it is greater pressure or increasing the frequency of injection timing, they both put added stresses on the pump and injectors; how much and what that added stress will do to the uselful life, who knows... A flash tune almost always increases turbo boost, so add that to the mix.

Our fuel pumps, njectors and turbos for that matter are designed/built to withstand operating perameters well an excess of what your car operates at stock, as well as the manufacturers claimed thresholds, which mind you are usually well in excess of the car manufacturer's design/operating specifications. Case in point, the 627hp Vishnu BMW, which is still running on a stock transmission and many engine internals.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...esnt-explode-at-airport-attack-goes-fast.html

Now I am not suggesting the Vishnu BMW will provide the same reliability as a stock BMW, but rather to just demonstrate real world tolerances of OEM engine/transmission components. Unless you have the logged data to support how each tune operates it's all speculation. Arguably a flash vs a fuel box is the preferred way to go about making more power.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

cssnms said:


> Our fuel pumps and injectors are designed/built to withstand operating perameters well an excess of what your car operates at stock, as well as the manufacturers claimed thresholds, which mind you are usually well in excess of the car manufacturer's design/operating specifications.


I think this is something anyone on the fense to modify their car should really think about. It is going to be safe to say if you modify the car with a tune that you are bringing components past the stock operating parameters but probably still within the parts overall parameters. Regardless though you are lessoning the overall lifespan of those parts. They will last the longest when being stressed the least. I guess it all boils down to how does one get enjoyment out of their vehicles. If it is just to see how long it lives and you do not need to deal with repairs then modifying it for more power probably is not in your best interests. If you like to have power and enjoy finding avenues for more power then a tune probably is right up your alley so long as you realize always a chance you are creating future repairs.

I sway on the fense of modifying cars still under factory warrantees. I got slightly bit once for that. I changed out the rear gearing on a car I had. Later on that car had some transmission clutch issues and I took it in. They did the clutch work under warranty but they heard a howling in the rear end so tore into it to find non-stock parts. I got charged for them digging into the rear end. Of course with that same car I pulled into a different dealer with an aftermarket turbo kit(cars did not come turbocharged from the factory) and a few other speed parts with a complaint about the shifting and they rebuilt the factory transmission under warranty then asked me how I liked that turbo.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

I spoke to my source and he told me the only way for the dealer to find out if the car was flashed was for BMW dealer send your ECU to BMW Corporate Headquarters and have it research and that would not be cost effective. For those waiting on Dinan , hurry up and wait.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

Snipe656 said:


> I know Ford does this. Though it typically only comes up in issues where it is some major failure such as an engine going south. I know a few people who got dinged by it and were all butt hurt over it. I personally think if anyone is going to be modding a car they should accept from the get go they might very well end up having to pay out of pocket to fix things(that in anyway can be related to the mod) that break. It is kind of like racing a car, if you can't afford to up and loose the thing at any moment then perhaps putting it in a situation that a wreck might happen and insurance will refuse to cover is a bad idea.


I completely agree with this. If you aren't willing to roll the dice on paying to fix it you probably shouldn't be messing with it. Coming from the Evo world I've lost count how many times I've seen people crying about something not being warrantied after adding 100+ hp and drag racing the car. That's on a car that is relatively affordable to repair too, unlike a BMW. It's a warranty not a sponsorship to go racing or a grant for R&D.

That being said my Evo was making over 400hp (stock is 270) and because I used quality parts with the appropriate supporting mods and drove like an adult I never had an issue with drive line parts failing or getting something warrantied. I think a lot of people look at the initial cost of a mod, say $1000 for a tune, and lose sight of the potential for a $10K+ bill to rebuild the engine if that tune or anything they can blame on the tune sends a rod looking for daylight.

And that's the other problem, it doesn't necessarily have to be the tune that caused the part to fail but, if they find a tune and can potentially attribute blame for the failed part to it you lose there too. I know there were a few guys with 335i's that had procedes and failed HPFPs that ended up paying out of pocket to replace them. It's a common problem that a lot of people without tunes had too but, because a few left their procede in or told the dealer they had one they got burned.

In my opinion that's why using a tuner that has a proven record is important in a car that has lots of expensive parts. If I had a car with a small block chevy that would cost me relatively little to rebuild I'd be a bit less concerned.

On the opposite side of the argument... there is usually a significant safety margin built into driveline parts for street cars and besides even if the engine only lasts 150,000-200,000 miles most of the rest of the car probably won't these days.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Axel61 said:


> I spoke to my source and he told me the only way for the dealer to find out if the car was flashed was for BMW dealer send your ECU to BMW Corporate Headquarters and have it research and that would not be cost effective. For those waiting on Dinan , hurry up and wait.


I honestly have a really hard time believing your source. I mean come on now, if Ford can do it at the dealership level then I'd think so could pretty much any other company. I know with Ford it is much like others have stated here and they simply look at the number of times the ECU has been flashed and then cross reference that with their records. There is a way to erase that number but then that in itself they will start getting pissy about. I guess until we see someone blow up a motor and who had a tune then we just never will know for certain. Although seems like looking at the 335i world we could get a good idea.



hotrod2448 said:


> On the opposite side of the argument... there is usually a significant safety margin built into driveline parts for street cars and besides even if the engine only lasts 150,000-200,000 miles most of the rest of the car probably won't these days.


I have been saying this for a very long time. Too much other stuff on these cars and most new cars that can break and cost a fortune to fix. By other stuff I mean things outside the driveline completely. Unless someone just does a ton of freeway driving and is willing to put up with misc things not working then I just don't see too many of these cars staying with the original owners much past 200k miles. That even ignores the feeling I get that a lot of people who buy these cars are the type who would go to the next great thing long before they ever hit 200k miles anyway.


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## KarlB (Nov 21, 2004)

I would be surprised if the auto side of the house (BMWs) isnt at least as far advanced as the bike side. and on the bike side, everything now goes to and comes from the mothership via internet, when they hook up to your bike BMWNA sees every code /shadow code your bike has, all software upgrades are down loaded directly into your bike from BMWNA, the dealer is no longer able to hide anything from corporate like the old days. can suck too as on one of my bikes a couple years ago (K1200GT) BMW NA downloaded a corrupted file into my bike at a routine service visit, while the bike still mechanically ran all the electronics were screwed up and I had one hell of a show on my dash (it would roll through every light ,warning, tach and speedo needles swinging wildly, then go out completely,and then come back on normal every few miles) took them 8 hours on the computer to get it straightened out.


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## hotrod2448 (Jun 2, 2007)

KarlB said:


> I would be surprised if the auto side of the house (BMWs) isnt at least as far advanced as the bike side. *and on the bike side, everything now goes to and comes from the mothership via internet, when they hook up to your bike BMWNA sees every code /shadow code your bike has, all software upgrades are down loaded directly into your bike from BMWNA*, the dealer is no longer able to hide anything from corporate like the old days. can suck too as on one of my bikes a couple years ago (K1200GT) BMW NA downloaded a corrupted file into my bike at a routine service visit, while the bike still mechanically ran all the electronics were screwed up and I had one hell of a show on my dash (it would roll through every light ,warning, tach and speedo needles swinging wildly, then go out completely,and then come back on normal every few miles) took them 8 hours on the computer to get it straightened out.


I believe this is how the car side works as well.


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## 4pipes (Aug 4, 2006)

Car side works the same way. My CEL fault was downloaded and diagnosed by BMWNA.


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