# US Muscle car : question for you



## Sherlock (Jun 9, 2003)

I was in the US last week for business. I rent a Ford Mustang for daily connections from hotel / to meeting points. I asked Hertz to give me the V8 , but they only had the 6 cylinders, which was ... hem .. too soft, poor handling, poor brakes, and an automatic gearbox which uses 50 % of the available engine power (at least this is how I explain that, depite a 190 bhp on paper, the car seemed to have only 95...) . I pushed once to 100 mph, I can ony say I felt completely unsecure. 

However I must say I love the exterior design of that car. 
When I bought my alpina, I was searching for an exclusive muscle car, and went also to Ford, asking for a Mustang Cobra SVT. 
Unfortunately the SVT is not imported officially by Ford Belgium (you have to do all the process by yourself... they don't needed my money , apparently). 

On paper, the SVT seems to be a much more serious candidate to compete with Europe's best cars (manual Getrag 6 speed box, Brembo brakes, 4,6 V8 with 390 bhp, ...).

So this is my question: Do you have guys, in the US, any experience, comments with the Mustang SVT? How does it compare to M3 or others ? Any tests in magazine that you can share with me? 

Thanks a lot for sharing. Depending on responses, I could consider importing a Mustang SVT convertible, for the sunny days over here...


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## Betcour (May 23, 2003)

I wouldn't feel very easy with this kind of American cars in Europe. They are usually too big for our cities and have loosy milage (and with the cost of gas over here, it's a huge flaw).


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

All of the points are very valid on not wanting a US car in Europe. I might add a few as an American living in the "old country"  

The biggest would be the size as already mentioned. I could not imagine trying to park a full size American sedan, let alone a SUV in a Euro parking garage or infront of a house. I own a 323i and a Brittish Honda Accord wagon and both are a challenge to park some time.

The other issue would be the handling. I don't know how many times I have seen American cars parked half way through a hedg row or burried half way into an irrigation ditch along side the road. I can't help but wonder if the driver hadn't been driving like a idiot, if the car still would been able to handle the posted speedlimit with those marshmellows that most American car makers use for a suspension.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Sherlock said:


> *I was in the US last week for business. I rent a Ford Mustang for daily connections from hotel / to meeting points. I asked Hertz to give me the V8 , but they only had the 6 cylinders, which was ... hem .. too soft, poor handling, poor brakes, and an automatic gearbox which uses 50 % of the available engine power (at least this is how I explain that, depite a 190 bhp on paper, the car seemed to have only 95...) . I pushed once to 100 mph, I can ony say I felt completely unsecure.
> 
> However I must say I love the exterior design of that car.
> When I bought my alpina, I was searching for an exclusive muscle car, and went also to Ford, asking for a Mustang Cobra SVT.
> ...


The 390 hp SVT is essentially a last hurrah of the 25 year old platform that underpins the current Mustang. I haven't driven one, but it's supposed to be the best handling Mustang ever, and the power is, of course, titanic (but, then again, so is the weight).

Compared to any BMW, any Mustang feels a bit crude. The interior materials are cheap, and the limitations of the old engineering become apparent in things like chassis stiffness. The big advantage is obviously cost; as with the WRX, the engineering budget is spent on performance bits, and the fat is trimmed from areas like interior plastics. In the States, a 390 hp Cobra goes for the low 30s, whereas a similarly equipped M3 will set you back an additional 20 grand.

Still and all, I'd hold off on importing one of the lame duck SVTs. The next generation Mustang is set to be introduced about a year from now. With a thoroughly modern platform, the next SVT will better justify the cost and trouble of importation.


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

I'll give you my view of the Cobra SVT (2001 model that I test drove)

I was on the verge of buying one before placing my order for my current 330ci. You'll have to understand my perspective of being "Married with two kids" as well.

Good points of the SVT:
Excellent acceleration! This car was made for going fast and straight!

Excellent Exhaust tone. Throaty, lets you know "Hey, I'm a BFE and I like to spook small animals"

Handling wasn't bad, but it wasn't BMW either.

Bad points:
No back seat. Well, theres a back seat, but don't plan on using it for transporting humans, not even kids, no leg room once you recline the seat to a comfortable zone.

Cheesy plastic interior. When you pay this much for a car($32,500), I expect to have an interior equal to at least a BMW.

Really bad points:
I'm 6' tall, and with the seat in a comfortable position, the convertible top model I was in, the convertible frame (is that the B-pillar?) was _right up against my head!_ I could not tilt my head one fraction of an inch to the left. That would be surely be instant death if ever T-boned in an accident.

I soon test drove a 330 after the SVT and it was a slam dunk on my decision based on the following:

I needed a "usable" back seat for hauling kids occasionally.
I needed something with decent gas milege for commuting.
I prioritized "Handling" higher than I prioritized "HP".


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

A couple of things about Mustangs, Ford uses the cheapest plastic known to man in the interiors. And no human should ever ride in the back seat, the combination of sitting above a live rear axle with huge tires is not good for the back. This also makes for very bad rear wheel hop. This should not be a problem on the Cobra because of the use of a independent rear suspension though. On the plus side I loved the styling and engine, and the car is very reliable. 

I would wait until the new generation Mustang comes out before buying.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

I see your post has been deleted Ripsnort... your F150 made the list. :fruit:


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## RandyB (Mar 4, 2003)

*SVT Cobra...*

I currently own a '98 SVT Cobra and an '03 330i SP/6-speed. The Mustang is fun to drive because of all the power and torque, but isn't nearly as refined as the Bimmer. And the Mustang build quality/materials is pretty much what everyone else has said so far.

That said, hopefully Ford will fix most of its short-comings with the introduction of the next generation Mustang next April. Unfortunately, the Cobra version won't be out until '06, but is rumored to be getting a twin-screw supercharged SOHC 3V 5.4 engine producing right at or close to 500hp. Sounds like a dream, really. Hopefully, it will lose some mass, but it doesn't sound like it so far.

Also, the Ford Mustang will be built in a new(to the Mustang) plant alongside the Mazda 6, so hopefully build quality will take a quantum leap as well.

I don't think I can take a step backwards as far as build quality goes, now that I have experienced what BMW has to offer in that regard. I'm pretty much spoiled now, so I'll give up a little power for a car that does everything else great. At some point I'll replace the Cobra with another go-fast car. It will be between the new Cobra, C6 Z06, and the next-gen ///M3.

The '03 SVT Cobra is the best Mustang to date in every area, and is a blast to drive, but you might want to wait on the Ford for a couple of years if those other things matter as well...


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *I see your post has been deleted Ripsnort... your F150 made the list. :fruit: *


LOL! You dog!  (heres the list again, but Mustang nor the F150 ain't on there  )
http://cartalk.cars.com/About/Gay-Lesbian/gay-guy1.html


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## Sherlock (Jun 9, 2003)

Thanks for the valuable replies. 
I had indeed noticed about the cheap plastics...
Good to know that the new model will be released next year. 
I'm looking forward to see the pics & specs.


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

Sherlock, if you have a spare $135,000 or so laying around, go for the Ford GT coming out.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Sherlock said:


> *Thanks for the valuable replies.
> I had indeed noticed about the cheap plastics...
> Good to know that the new model will be released next year.
> I'm looking forward to see the pics & specs. *


Check this site out for 05 Mustang info Sherlock...

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=558&thumb=1


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

V6 Mustang is an absolute piece of junk, even Mustang enthusiasts will tell you that.

I have driven the GT V8 a few years ago, and was not really impressed. It wasn't particularly fast and felt very numb.

The SVT Cobra is supposed to be a whole different level car, from what I have seen on the track and read in magazines.

Here is a reveiw, http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=1881


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *V6 Mustang is an absolute piece of junk, even Mustang enthusiasts will tell you that.
> 
> I have driven the GT V8 a few years ago, and was not really impressed. It wasn't particularly fast and felt very numb.
> 
> ...


We talked about this before, right? You drove a pre-99, or an automatic, or some such? The 99+ GT with a stick is very, very quick (0-60 in 5.5), and because it's got a boatload of low end torque, it actually feels a bit faster than it is.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> *A couple of things about Mustangs, Ford uses the cheapest plastic known to man in the interiors. And no human should ever ride in the back seat, the combination of sitting above a live rear axle with huge tires is not good for the back. This also makes for very bad rear wheel hop. This should not be a problem on the Cobra because of the use of a independent rear suspension though. On the plus side I loved the styling and engine, and the car is very reliable.
> 
> I would wait until the new generation Mustang comes out before buying. *


Actually, the live axle setup makes for less wheel hop when you're talking about straight line acceleration. It's much easier to apply all that torque to the ground with a solid axle than with an IRS; for example, C5 drivers have always had to work harder than Camaro drivers when launching at the dragstrip.

Now, when the ride gets bumpy, a live axle will not be the most confidence-inspiring setup. Choppy roads will not cause axle hop, exactly, but it will feel very unsettled and you won't be able to carry as much speed through a corner as you could with an independent suspension.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

A good friend of mine has an 03 SVT Cobra which he has modified a bit. When it was stock, it was pretty fast, roughly comparable to an E46 M3, but the handling was only so, so, somewhat floaty, axle hop, just too soft.

He change the springs, shocks, and upper strut mounts, and the car was transformed. The handling and ride aren't quite as good as my 330i ZHP, but they're close, call it 85% to 90% as good.

For the engine, he changed the exhaust, the computer chip, the intake, the throttle body, and the supercharger pulley. The result was 474 rear wheel horesepower on a Dynojet. The car is seriously fast, low 12's in the quarter mile on street tires. :yikes: 

So after about $5k in mods, he has a car that goes, handles, and stops extremely well. But it's noisy, the chassis is still kind of flexy, and there's a general lack of refinement throughout the car, to say nothing of the cheap interior materials. But it is FUN!

I think the size of an SVT Cobra would be ok in Europe. Compared to a BMW 5 series, it is 4.5" shorter and 2.2" wider. The interior room of an SVT Cobra coupe compared to a 5 series is as follows: .7" more front headroom, .1" more front legroom, 3.2" less front shoulder room, 1.7" less rear headroom, 4.3" less rear legroom, 3.8" less rear shoulder room. So the back seat is fit only for children. But my friend is 6'4" and fits fine in the front seat. The gas mileage should be roughly comparable to an M5, so that would cost a few bucks.

Overall, it's a really fun car, that in a straight line can run with a Porsche GT2 and doesn't embarass itself around the curves for around $38k. But it is noisy and crude, and a bit of a beast, although that's part of its appeal. I wouldn't want to drive it every day, but my friend loves it!


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> *Actually, the live axle setup makes for less wheel hop when you're talking about straight line acceleration. It's much easier to apply all that torque to the ground with a solid axle than with an IRS; for example, C5 drivers have always had to work harder than Camaro drivers when launching at the dragstrip.
> 
> Now, when the ride gets bumpy, a live axle will not be the most confidence-inspiring setup. Choppy roads will not cause axle hop, exactly, but it will feel very unsettled and you won't be able to carry as much speed through a corner as you could with an independent suspension. *


Yes I actually was talking about wheel (axle) hop on bumpy corners or when braking on a bumpy road. The car felt like wheel hop... but I could be wrong... maybe tires were sliding.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

erm, with all this talk about live axle hop and all, I thought one of the improvements made for the SVT was ditching the live axle for a IRS.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

Kaz said:


> *erm, with all this talk about live axle hop and all, I thought one of the improvements made for the SVT was ditching the live axle for a IRS. *


Yes, it has IRS. It's not uncommon to get axle hop with IRS suspensions as well as live axles. Just takes the right (or wrong) combination of traction, springs, and shocks.


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## hythe (Jun 29, 2003)

SWEEET!

Call me old-fashioned, but I hanker after a mint 1970 Dodge Challenger with the 440 Six-Pak - maybe it's just the Plum Crazy paintjobs that have me seduced....


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## GimpyMcFarlan (Aug 13, 2002)

Hmmmm... Could you put a BMW I-6 or V-8 in a Cobra?


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## hythe (Jun 29, 2003)

GimpyMcFarlan said:


> Hmmmm... Could you put a BMW I-6 or V-8 in a Cobra?


Or better yet, wedge an S62 into a Caterham!!! Probably too heavy... 

Saw an awesome race-developed Westfield SEiGHT at the Gurston Down Hillclimb a few weeks ago - talk about visceral, that guy was getting some SERIOUS wheelspin all the way up the hill... on slicks...


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

> MOPAR Rules!


As a Chrysler family from the Motor City I bring you this:

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(remember the V6 Shadow? WOWOWOWOWO!!! :yikes: )

Mopar needs to get their balls back!

End of Transmission...


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

hythe said:


> Or better yet, wedge an S62 into a Caterham!!! Probably too heavy...
> 
> Saw an awesome race-developed Westfield SEiGHT at the Gurston Down Hillclimb a few weeks ago - talk about visceral, that guy was getting some SERIOUS wheelspin all the way up the hill... on slicks...


How about an S14 powered Lotus 7 clone? 

There is the Locost 7 by Champion. This is a kit of the build it yourself Lotus 7 clone. Can take just about any front engine/RWD engine/tranny combo.

Or get the book that spawned the Locost 7? I forget the exact name, but something like How to Build Your Own Sports Car for L250. Starting from there, you could do a S62 powered version. The I-6 is a little long for this type of car, but it could be done.

There is also the Bunton Stalker V6 powered by a Chevy S10/Camaro V6, from 2.8 - 3.4L.


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## streetdeman (Jun 15, 2005)

*owner of 03 cobra and 02 M3*

If you want to know thruth the only avantage that the M3 has over the cobra is the luxary.
power no! handing NO! and speed hell NO! The M3 is no macth for the supercharged cobra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! maybe gas by a little but you tend to us it by tring to speed up to the pace that the cobra would cruise. In traffic the M3 is great because people think your rich. Driving i just want to go fast.


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

At a car show a couple of years ago the REAL Cobra Club was parked next to my Triumph Club. Around 3:00 they all started up the big blocks and made a lot of good noise...of course we Triumph owners were not to be outdone...many laughs were shared by all. The BMW Club was down the way a bit, I think they started up too but we couldn't hear much.


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## Bob Clevenger (Dec 17, 2004)

streetdeman said:


> If you want to know thruth the only avantage that the M3 has over the cobra is the luxary.
> power no! handing NO! and speed hell NO! The M3 is no macth for the supercharged cobra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! maybe gas by a little but you tend to us it by tring to speed up to the pace that the cobra would cruise. In traffic the M3 is great because people think your rich. Driving i just want to go fast.


 You are pretty much on target here. I owned a '96 SVT Cobra and it was very fast, but rather crude compared to the BMWs I now own ('04 35xit and '02 M coupe). I got around 28-29 mpg on pure highway driving.


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## Wingboot (Jan 8, 2002)

.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

the new Mustang is so much better than the previous version that this thread started with. I drove a 6 cyl convertible from Hertz and was extremely impressed by the difference. It's a completely different car now.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

I think the Mustangs with the V8 make great Rental Cars, most car rental agencies have them and tehy are the first to go as most people want to rent them but like someone said earlier when you sit in a BMW and drive one around the block you immediately decide that it is the car you want in your garage and not the Mustang. Friend of mine works for a company in Guangzou , China and they make plastic parts for Ford. The bidder with the lowest bid for the plastic parts gets the order, how sad :tsk: . A ford with plastic parts from China with orders going to the person that gives them the lowest price on plastic parts for the car.


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