# A certified flop: VW Phaeton



## LeucX3 (Dec 26, 2001)

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100621

939 unit sales YTD? That's pathetic. They need to drop the $66k MSRP by about $15k to be taken seriously.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

LeucX3 said:


> http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100621
> 
> 939 unit sales YTD? That's pathetic. They need to drop the $66k MSRP by about $15k to be taken seriously.


Dropping the price that much would make it look like more of a joke.

It's a flop; no question. Makes the Jag XType look like a runaway hit. The car itself doesn't seem to have much to fault, so the saying, 'it's the product, stupid' doesn't hold up in this case. Maybe the market really isn't ready for a Volksboot. My question is, where did all the marketing behind this thing go??? :dunno:


----------



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Can you say, "Marketing Fubar?"


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

Non-existent marketing, so far as I know, but I do I think the product is to blame.

It's expensive, it's huge, and it's a gas guzzler.

VW can't make that work with its current corporate identity.


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Has anyone actually seen one on the road? I haven't :dunno: I don't think I ever saw an add in print or TV...explains a lot.  

The only time I saw one in person was the car show. My local VW dealer didn't have a single one in stock. Looking at the numbers tells me he probably never sold one either.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

philippek said:


> Non-existent marketing, so far as I know, but I do I think the product is to blame.
> 
> It's expensive, it's huge, and it's a gas guzzler.
> 
> VW can't make that work with its current corporate identity.


Pricewise, it starts in a good place... relative to the Europeans, but not relative to the Japanese, which start <$60k. So depending on what the customer's POV is, it may or may not be a value proposition.

Size and consumption, at least in the US, are definitely non-issues.


----------



## LeucX3 (Dec 26, 2001)

I have seen one or two on the road.

VW should have started marketing the car with teaser ads a year before the car was ever offered. Kinda like what the luxo Japanese brands did.


----------



## SONET (Mar 1, 2002)

I've read some good things about it. It's a shame that they didn't market it better and/or put a more suitable badge on the hood. If you're losing money on cars like this, the least you should do is put the car in front of everyone so they can admire it and gain more respect for the brand (like Acura does with the NSX). As it is, very few people even know what a Phaeton is - even when they're looking right at it. It seems to me that VW has a thing or two to learn about getting their moneys worth from Honda (NSX) and Ford (GT40), among others.

--SONET


----------



## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Desertnate said:


> The only time I saw one in person was the car show. My local VW dealer didn't have a single one in stock. Looking at the numbers tells me he probably never sold one either.


Keep in mind that most dealers are not Phaeton certified and do not carry the special franchise required to sell and service Phaetons. There are special expenses required in order to carry the product line, including sales qualifications (display space, training) and service/parts qualifications (loaner car program, tech training, special equipment, etc.)

Considering how few cars most dealers will sell, I don't think it is worth the cost of becoming a Phaeton dealer at this point, unless the manufacturer is footing the bills to do so.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> Keep in mind that most dealers are not Phaeton certified and do not carry the special franchise required to sell and service Phaetons. There are special expenses required in order to carry the product line, including sales qualifications (display space, training) and service/parts qualifications (loaner car program, tech training, special equipment, etc.)
> 
> Considering how few cars most dealers will sell, I don't think it is worth the cost of becoming a Phaeton dealer at this point, unless the manufacturer is footing the bills to do so.


Didn't BMW require something similar when the X5 first came out? I recall looking at some list of dealers years ago and there was a separate icon for those that were authorized for SAVs.


----------



## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Kaz said:


> Didn't BMW require something similar when the X5 first came out? I recall looking at some list of dealers years ago and there was a separate icon for those that were authorized for SAVs.


Yes. And so did Mercedes-Benz when the ML came out. Basically, the manufacturers took is as an opportunity to "force" the dealers to make the changes that they had been asking them to make for a while. For example, one of the requirements we had when the ML came out was to make a free-standing Mercedes-Benz facility. In that light, seeing how it's only about 8 years old, it makes it seem really silly that we're currently in the process of totally demolishing our current facility to make a brand new one on top of it.


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

SARAFIL said:


> Keep in mind that most dealers are not Phaeton certified and do not carry the special franchise required to sell and service Phaetons. There are special expenses required in order to carry the product line, including sales qualifications (display space, training) and service/parts qualifications (loaner car program, tech training, special equipment, etc.)
> 
> Considering how few cars most dealers will sell, I don't think it is worth the cost of becoming a Phaeton dealer at this point, unless the manufacturer is footing the bills to do so.


That explains it...the Phaeton was orphaned. VW should have established a whole separate brand for the car if they were going to require a separate franchise. The Phaeton *might* have worked if it was given it's own separate sales environment, a la MINI or Maybach.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

wasnt the Phaeton Ferdinand Piech idea? He seemed like a good engineer/leader but he sure seem to drop the ball on this one. Too much overlap with Audi. Yeah VWAG excuse was VW==Mercedes and Audi==BMW but to me audi sits in the middle of both, more sporty then mercedes, less then bmw. Should of stuck that developement money into fixing all the VW quality problems


----------



## TXE39 (Oct 2, 2003)

I don't get it. When no one wants to pay $40K for a W8 Passat...who will pay $70K for a bigger VW???


----------



## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

TXE39 said:


> I don't get it. When no one wants to pay $40K for a W8 Passat...who will pay $70K for a bigger VW???


Exactly! For $40k, I'd rather get a 6-cylinder A4 than an 8-cylinder Passat!


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Kaz said:


> Dropping the price that much would make it look like more of a joke.
> 
> It's a flop; no question. Makes the Jag XType look like a runaway hit. The car itself doesn't seem to have much to fault, so the saying, 'it's the product, stupid' doesn't hold up in this case. Maybe the market really isn't ready for a Volksboot. My question is, where did all the marketing behind this thing go??? :dunno:


Haven't seen a single Phaeton in London in the last two years, and Londoners are usually obsessed with VWs (you can't move for Golfs, Passats and TTs here). Nary a one. Seen plenty of A8s, though, and the X-Type is now selling like hotcakes since Jaguar adjusted the prices and brought out a diesel variant (I know, I know).


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

philippek said:


> That explains it...the Phaeton was orphaned. VW should have established a whole separate brand for the car if they were going to require a separate franchise. The Phaeton *might* have worked if it was given it's own separate sales environment, a la MINI or Maybach.


Isn't this what they have Audi for ?

For VW to decided to go upmarket makes no sense in my eye's ... they are an established Automaker with a niche that works great for them. The goal they set up totally competes with themselves (Audi) and why would they leave the most popular segment in the Auto industry :dunno:

I think it's a big ego job for Ferdinand ... he wanted to show the world how he can make anything happen and in this case he was wrong


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

BlackChrome said:


> Exactly! For $40k, I'd rather get a 6-cylinder A4 than an 8-cylinder Passat!


I agree for a few reasons ...

- resale for Audi would be better then for a 8 cyl VW
- service facility should be better for Audi though thats not always the case
- loaner car when brought in for service
- for $40k the Audi has more status
- the Audi is more sport oriented


----------



## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

VAG was supposed to implement some sort of brand direction change a couple years back. VW was supposed to become up market, kind of taking over where Audi has been all these years. Meanwhile, Audi was supposed to change over to a more sporty image with sport and luxury sport cars. And I guess other VAG brands such as Skoda and Seat would take over as the everyman's cars (in other markets.) Then Lambo and Bugatti would stay in the exotic and ultra-luxury class.

Problem is... everything became a mixed up mess! VW had some models go upscale like some versions of the Passat, and of course the Phaeton. But then other models stayed firmly in the everyman range. On top of that, VW comes out with sport models such as the R32, 337 and the re-release of the GLI instead of letting Audi take care of the sport end of business.

While Audi comes out with fairly generic-looking, bloated and heavy, slab-sided cars that are in some part a failed mix of sport and luxury. Just look at reviews of the S4 vs.. M3.
I don't think anybody at VAG knows where things are going. And this is why the Phaeton... a great car BTW... got left in the dark.


----------



## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Back in the 70's, did anyone think that Datsun would become a real car manufacturer... with a bonafide premium nameplate?

It's a long term thing for VW... they know it. They'll hemorrage money for a decade and then one day it will change for them. The Phaeton is not a massive flop... it's a variant on the A8 chassis, which Audi would have developed anyway.


----------



## LeucX3 (Dec 26, 2001)

JPinTO said:


> The Phaeton is not a massive flop... it's a variant on the A8 chassis, which Audi would have developed anyway.


They already did...the A8 L.

Everyone knew the Toureg would do well because it's an SUV, but they're letting the mkIV Golf, Jetta and B5.5 Passat die a slow miserable death here in the US.

The Golf and Jetta should have been update like the Passat. I love VW's, but can't see buying a current one because of other 'better', newer cars on the market.


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

From what I've read, the current VW CEO, (Bernd Pischetsrieder) is also not thrilled about the Phaeton. I think he'll probably can it in a few years. But, I wonder whwat they'll do w/ their Willy-Wonka Phaeton factory?


----------



## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

JPinTO said:


> Back in the 70's, did anyone think that Datsun would become a real car manufacturer... with a bonafide premium nameplate?
> 
> It's a long term thing for VW... they know it. They'll hemorrage money for a decade and then one day it will change for them. The Phaeton is not a massive flop... it's a variant on the A8 chassis, which Audi would have developed anyway.


But remember that Nissan created Infiniti for the US market because US stoopidheads wouldn't want to pay luxury money on a luxury Nissan.

Toyota created Lexus for the US market for the exact same reason. As did Honda create Acura.

VW and Audi were always separate companies that joined way back when. VW shouldn't have to make a new name for itself. It should build and market upscale cars using the Audi brand... akin to Lexus, Infiniti and Acura, and keep VW the Toyota/Nissan/Honda brand with every-day cars.

Nothing says you can't have a sporty R32 with a VW badge for the young guys and tuning crowd, and then have an S3 for the affluent successful dude. Same with a Passat/Jetta for the everyman, and a A4/A6/A8 for those with deeper pockets.


----------



## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

AF-RX8 said:


> I agree for a few reasons ...
> 
> - resale for Audi would be better then for a 8 cyl VW
> - service facility should be better for Audi though thats not always the case
> ...


I'd like to add..
- longer warranty for the Audi
- better styling overall (the Passat is just too plain)
- most importantly, the availablity of a 6-speed manual tranny (which would kill the resale advantage but oh well)!


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

BlackChrome said:


> I'd like to add..
> - longer warranty for the Audi
> - better styling overall (the Passat is just too plain)
> - most importantly, the availablity of a 6-speed manual tranny (which would kill the resale advantage but oh well)!


on the passat vw offered a 6-speed on the W8. Now offer the 5-speed with quattro.


----------



## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

Jeff_DML said:


> on the passat vw offered a 6-speed on the W8. Now offer the 5-speed with quattro.


Thanks. I thought the W8 Passat only comes with the automatic tranny...


----------



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

philippek said:


> That explains it...the Phaeton was orphaned. VW should have established a whole separate brand for the car if they were going to require a separate franchise. The Phaeton *might* have worked if it was given it's own separate sales environment, a la MINI or Maybach.


Yes, now you're on to something. Marketing is more than advertising. The separate brand - ala Acura, etc - would've been better. Trying to upsell the VW brand is not the same as for Jag, Mercedes and BMW. That was VW's arrogant mistake and they're paying for it.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

racerdave said:


> Yes, now you're on to something. Marketing is more than advertising. The separate brand - ala Acura, etc - would've been better. Trying to upsell the VW brand is not the same as for Jag, Mercedes and BMW. That was VW's arrogant mistake and they're paying for it.


The problem with that in this case, though, is that VW wants to re-cast the whole brand without renaming it or anything. That's a much harder sell, and something that's going to take a much longer time to do, if it's possible at all.


----------



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

AF-RX8 said:


> Isn't this what they have Audi for ?
> 
> For VW to decided to go upmarket makes no sense in my eye's ... they are an established Automaker with a niche that works great for them. The goal they set up totally competes with themselves (Audi) and why would they leave the most popular segment in the Auto industry :dunno:
> 
> I think it's a big ego job for Ferdinand ... he wanted to show the world how he can make anything happen and in this case he was wrong


:stupid:


----------



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Kaz said:


> The problem with that in this case, though, is that VW wants to re-cast the whole brand without renaming it or anything. That's a much harder sell, and something that's going to take a much longer time to do, if it's possible at all.


Exactly. :thumbup:


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Well, VW is held in high esteem elsewhere. Just not the US. I wonder how sales figures are for non-US markets, particularly Germany and the rest of Europe. Are they meeting their target figures?

WRT going upscale, new branding, etc. I think it takes a substantial amount of money to create a new brand. Hence Honda bringing the Fit over to try to recapture some of the youth segment that Scion is taking away. They don't have the resources to create and market a whole new brand like Toyota does. And for VW to create a whole new brand for just one car, especially of such a small intended market size would be even more of a flop than the current scenario. Also, if you look around, everyone is trying to go upscale. Some, like Subaru, are taking it at a slower pace, but it seems most of the makes want a piece of the "upper crust pie." I'm not saying I agree with their hope that VW could ever rival Mercedes, but I understand why they would want that...

I think VW actually did a nice job with the car. I always applaud more competition, as it lowers costs (eventually) for me, the consumer. However, I think they should have been even more selective about where they were going to offer the car. A Touareg works, I guess, and shows they can sell a pricy vehicle, but a pricy car in this segment in the US is definitely a much tougher sell. It takes a very special person to have enough money to want to dabble in that luxury and yet not have any of the prestige to go with it.


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Who saw the Phaeton commercial during the Olympics last night. For a commercial I give it a :thumbup: It had me and my 11-year old laughing.

I found it pretty ironic after this discussion related to the VW philosophy surrounding the car and the lack of any real advertising. I had never seen any...and then SHAZAM! There it is on TV.


----------



## LeucX3 (Dec 26, 2001)

Desertnate said:


> Who saw the Phaeton commercial during the Olympics last night. For a commercial I give it a :thumbup: It had me and my 11-year old laughing.
> 
> I found it pretty ironic after this discussion related to the VW philosophy surrounding the car and the lack of any real advertising. I had never seen any...and then SHAZAM! There it is on TV.


It's cute, but i think most poeple will probably think the car costs around $40k and might have sticker shock when they find out how much it really costs.


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

LeucX3 said:


> It's cute, but i think most poeple will probably think the car costs around $40k and might have sticker shock when they find out how much it really costs.


Very true...no one would every believe a VW costs that much... :tsk:


----------



## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

There are many of them in China.

I have only seen one here in the US though....


----------



## Betcour (May 23, 2003)

swchang said:


> Well, VW is held in high esteem elsewhere. Just not the US. I wonder how sales figures are for non-US markets, particularly Germany and the rest of Europe. Are they meeting their target figures?


VW sales in Europe are not good - the Golf V hasn't been doing very well. The Lupo and Polo aren't faring well either.
The Golf has lost it's "best selling car" title in Europe to the Peugeot 206. (incidently VW lack of focus on its traditionnal market has profited a lot to both French carmakers  )


----------



## cantona7 (Apr 8, 2004)

I've seen the Phaeton up close and in person because I know someone who drives one. Sadly, he chose the Phaeton because he hates the new bimmers--he went in looking to get a new 760Li and just couldn't get over the styling. He absolutely loves the Phaeton as a daily driver--he's a car collector and has lots of other toys and is also a pro race car driver on top of that. 

I think VW really has an identity crisis on their hands. Trying to go upmarket with a VW badge or a separate new brand was always going to be losing proposition. VW has such strong brand as the everyman car, that asking megabucks for a luxury vehicle is just too much. As for a separate brand, it takes an ungodly amount of money to launch a totally new brand, not to mention dealer network issues. What they should have done, to go after the upmarket luxury segment, was to simply build a better car for Audi to sell. Infiniti has shown with the G35 and FX that if you build them, they will come. The Nissan/Infiniti challenge a few years back was really similar to the one faced by VW/Audi. The only difference is that back then, VW was doing relatively well, while Nissan/Infiniti was on the verge of collapse. Can you imagine what would have happened if the G35 and FX came out with Nissan badges?


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

cantona7 said:


> I've seen the Phaeton up close and in person because I know someone who drives one. Sadly, he chose the Phaeton because he hates the new bimmers--he went in looking to get a new 760Li and just couldn't get over the styling. He absolutely loves the Phaeton as a daily driver--he's a car collector and has lots of other toys and is also a pro race car driver on top of that.
> 
> I think VW really has an identity crisis on their hands. Trying to go upmarket with a VW badge or a separate new brand was always going to be losing proposition. VW has such strong brand as the everyman car, that asking megabucks for a luxury vehicle is just too much. As for a separate brand, it takes an ungodly amount of money to launch a totally new brand, not to mention dealer network issues. What they should have done, to go after the upmarket luxury segment, was to simply build a better car for Audi to sell. Infiniti has shown with the G35 and FX that if you build them, they will come. The Nissan/Infiniti challenge a few years back was really similar to the one faced by VW/Audi. The only difference is that back then, VW was doing relatively well, while Nissan/Infiniti was on the verge of collapse. Can you imagine what would have happened if the G35 and FX came out with Nissan badges?


Curious-- what did he think of the new A8? I think I'd get that over the Phaeton if I was in the market for a big sedan. Can't blame him for not wanting the 760.


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

cantona7 said:


> I've seen the Phaeton up close and in person because I know someone who drives one. Sadly, he chose the Phaeton because he hates the new bimmers--he went in looking to get a new 760Li and just couldn't get over the styling. He absolutely loves the Phaeton as a daily driver--he's a car collector and has lots of other toys and is also a pro race car driver on top of that.
> 
> I think VW really has an identity crisis on their hands. Trying to go upmarket with a VW badge or a separate new brand was always going to be losing proposition. VW has such strong brand as the everyman car, that asking megabucks for a luxury vehicle is just too much. As for a separate brand, it takes an ungodly amount of money to launch a totally new brand, not to mention dealer network issues. What they should have done, to go after the upmarket luxury segment, was to simply build a better car for Audi to sell. Infiniti has shown with the G35 and FX that if you build them, they will come. The Nissan/Infiniti challenge a few years back was really similar to the one faced by VW/Audi. The only difference is that back then, VW was doing relatively well, while Nissan/Infiniti was on the verge of collapse. Can you imagine what would have happened if the G35 and FX came out with Nissan badges?


But Audi already has a nice car in the A8. Piech just wanted a VW cruiser instead to be driven around in instead of an Audi car.


----------



## cantona7 (Apr 8, 2004)

robg said:


> Curious-- what did he think of the new A8? I think I'd get that over the Phaeton if I was in the market for a big sedan. Can't blame him for not wanting the 760.


 The new A8 wasn't out at the time and he wasn't prepared to wait--he wanted the 12-cylinder engine right away.


----------



## LeucX3 (Dec 26, 2001)

The real funny thing is that VW's lineup has the same models and body styles back when Nissan was in their crisis as they do now. That's definitely not good.

I've said it once and i'll say it again: They cannot go more than 4 years without a facelift to their cars...6-7 years is wayyyyy too long. 3 years like BMW is probably ideal.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

LeucX3 said:


> The real funny thing is that VW's lineup has the same models and body styles back when Nissan was in their crisis as they do now. That's definitely not good.
> 
> I've said it once and i'll say it again: They cannot go more than 4 years without a facelift to their cars...6-7 years is wayyyyy too long. 3 years like BMW is probably ideal.


adding some chrome doesnt count as a facelift? :dunno:


----------



## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

Actually, the Passats were facelifted in '01 if I recall. The B5 version came out in '97 as a '98. The facelift was known in the enthusiast circles as a B5.5. I had 2 different B5's. The facelift was actually quite substantial. Entirely new sheet metal on the front and rear fenders, plus the bumpers were different. Headlights, tail lights, trim... all was changed. I forget the number, but something like thousands of different parts across the entire car.

The Jetta was facelifted last year, though I don't think to the same degree. I don't think there is much you can do to the New Beetle because it needs to keep that "Beetle" look.


----------

