# Diesel Fuel Issues



## lencap (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm about to pick up my new 335d on Monday, and I want to start on the right foot. I've been very aware of BMW's Top Tier gasoline recommendations for my current car, and spoke with the technical assistant on BMW's customer service phone line.

He told me that BMW recommends diesel fuel with 51 cetane rating or higher, no additives of any kind, and no more than 5% biodiesel (B5) in the 335d. 

I want to follow his advice, but in Raleigh, NC I can't find any station that sells 51 cetane fuel. Shell (a top tier gasoline brand - the only one I use in my current BMW) lists the cetane rating at 40 on the pump, although several sites suggest that the actual cetane rating is 46. I asked the gas station attendant if he has details about the cetane rating on the fuel and he looked at me like I was from Mars. Shell makes a premium diesel, but it appears that is sold in Europe - a pretty long commute for fuel.

BP seems to have a premium diesel under the AMOCO brand, but it's not available in my area. The regular BP fuel supposedly has a premium available with a 49 cetane rating, but again it doesn't seem to be available locally. Again, a blank stare from the attendant at the station didn't add any new information to my search.

I want to get all that the car has to offer, and I've located a biodiesel station, but they sell B20 fuel, not recommended by BMW. Sitting at the pump calculating how much regular diesel to mix with B20 to wind up with B5 isn't beyond my capability, but my wife (who is the actual daily driver of the car) thought I needed to see a doctor when I suggested this alternative to her.

Any thoughts? What have you done to get the higher quality fuel in your 335d?


----------



## dnaer (Jan 13, 2011)

Just fuel it and drive it. It would be awfully difficult to maintain that kind of regimen, especially being a spouses car. I have 22,000 miles on my D now and fuel up at a multitude of stations..... never a problem. I am sure there is a benefit to meeting the cetane rating but for a wife's daily driver your looking at nebulous performance improvements. You will both love this car, congratulations.


----------



## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

cetane rating is equivelant to an octane rating. although many manufacturers recommend a min octane rating, the reality is that today's engines can accomodate much lower ratings without mechanical consequence. That being said, anything lower than the min recommended will yield lower performance (hp output and mpg's). 51 cetane is a mid/high grade rating for diesel fuel, 55 being the highest.


----------



## lencap (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info. I'm having trouble finding any local diesel fuel with even a 51 cetane rating. What brand do you use, and what is the cetane rating?


----------



## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

BP usually carries premium as does Shell. I am not brand loyal and I usually don't pay much attention to the cetane rating, more-so to price. High cetane rated fuels are much harder to come by in my experience. That said, I recently filled up with what was likely a low cetane rated fuel which was also combined with Kerosene (#1 diesel), which is a common additive to diesel fuel up north during the winter, this resulted in very poor MPG's and a car that felt less peppy. Needless to say I will not go back to this no-name gas station again, which mind you had one of the cheapest diesel prices in the area (guess you get what you pay for).


----------



## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

The source of your diesel fuel is usually more aligned with the chain store than it is with the brand of gas that is sold at that chain. The local BP and a number of Shell stations in my area their get diesel form the same supplier. The remainder of the Shell stations and the Citgo stations near me get their diesel from another supplier. Although all of the Shell pumps are marked minimum Cetane of 40, the latter chain yields a 2 mpg advantage over the other. During my initial fill-ups, I visited different stations and chains to see which fuel source provide the best economy. After ten fill-ups I was happy that I new who was providing the highest Cetane diesel.


----------



## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Congrats on your d! I'm sure you'll enjoy it.



lencap said:


> ...BMW recommends diesel fuel with 51 cetane rating or higher, no additives of any kind, and no more than 5% biodiesel (B5) in the 335d...


This is nearly impossible in the US 
As posted previously, the min cetane in the US is 40. Biodiesel is much higher, but as you point out, you are limited to B5, so no significant boost there. An additive is the only way to acheive 51 cetane in most cases. If you can find authentic BP Diesel Supreme (min 49 cetane), you'll be about as close as you can get.

I'd run with something between B2 and B5 mixture for sufficient lubricity. It is a bit of a hassle to get this ratio by pumping a mixture of B20 and D2, but I always did that where I used to live-

tank cap is 16.1 gal, so assume a fillup volume of 14 g
target bd content of 3%: .03 x 14=0.42 gal of biodiesel
how many gal of B20 needed?: 0.42/0.2= ~2
So put in 2 gal of B20 and then top off with D2.

If the fillup volume is lower, say 12 g, then your content will be: 0.4/12= 3.3%
If your tank is nearly empty when you fill up, let's say 15 gal, then content is: 0.4/15= ~2.7%
Using 2 gal of B20 at a fillup would not result in a >5% bd content unless the total fill up volume were <8 gal.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Soon I am getting a 335d and I am generally loyal to BP, Shell and Chevron in that order. I was planning on using BP from newer and updated gas stations. Am I right to assume that any station that has complied with the law requiring new tanks should be a safe bet for getting good diesel? Also, are BP, Shell and Chevron all the same in quality or is one better than the others? TIA for your help.


----------



## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Alpine, There is a difference between normal D2 and true "premium" diesel.
go to http://www.bp.com/heliospower/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9028299&contentId=7051508 to read about BP Diesel Supreme.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

d geek said:


> Alpine, There is a difference between normal D2 and true "premium" diesel.
> go to http://www.bp.com/heliospower/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9028299&contentId=7051508 to read about BP Diesel Supreme.


Thanks for the info and I do see the differences. How do I find a station that carries Diesel Supreme and not the regular diesel?


----------



## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Thanks for the info and I do see the differences. How do I find a station that carries Diesel Supreme and not the regular diesel?


Good question. I would start with contacting BP. If you can find a pump labeled as Supreme, then find out who delivers to that pump and find out what their fuel specs are.
I know this sounds like a hassle, but such is life for a US diesel owner


----------



## lencap (Jun 22, 2008)

So far I've spoken with 4 diesel stations in my area. None of them were able to tell me what the cetane number of their fuel is, if it is "premium" diesel, or any other information. Very frustrating.

The local BWM dealer uses BP diesel exclusively. I'll probably try the first tank and see how it runs. I'm leaning to Shell, just because of their top tier gasoline, but I want to get the right food for the new toy.


----------



## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

lencap- Try to contact the distributor of the fuel. They will know what the specs are.


----------



## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

lencap said:


> So far I've spoken with 4 diesel stations in my area. None of them were able to tell me what the cetane number of their fuel is, if it is "premium" diesel, or any other information. Very frustrating.
> 
> The local BWM dealer uses BP diesel exclusively. I'll probably try the first tank and see how it runs. I'm leaning to Shell, just because of their top tier gasoline, but I want to get the right food for the new toy.


 congratulations.... you ll have no regrets with d 
Dont worry most or some of us like me went through this stage. Shell is good if they indeed get it from shell refinery. my order of choice is BP Shell Mobil and then Hess. BP is not famous in MA so I always get it from Shell. Hess and BP stations usually publish cetane rating on their pumps. But in all you would get 45+ in all these pumps. Make sure you go to clean stations and also once with heavy traffic for small diesel vehicles. In 4-5 fillups you will know what you should look for in station. And for now avoid BIO DIESEL till you have researched well


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

dunderhi said:


> The source of your diesel fuel is usually more aligned with the chain store than it is with the brand of gas that is sold at that chain. The local BP and a number of Shell stations in my area their get diesel form the same supplier. The remainder of the Shell stations and the Citgo stations near me get their diesel from another supplier. Although all of the Shell pumps are marked minimum Cetane of 40, the latter chain yields a 2 mpg advantage over the other. During my initial fill-ups, I visited different stations and chains to see which fuel source provide the best economy. After ten fill-ups I was happy that I new who was providing the highest Cetane diesel.


Interesting because at the supplier/depot they are supposed to blend in different things based upon where the fuel is going to end up from the truck transporting it out. So for example Chevron actually does random testing of their fuel to make sure fuel that is pumped out of stations with their name meets their specs.

To the OP I went through this whole fuel thing worry a year ago and made my decision on what to use after finally contacting the manufacturers.


----------



## lencap (Jun 22, 2008)

The BP website provides diesel specs. For BP diesel the cetane number is 40 - pretty much the minimum bottom of the barrel diesel - great for trucks, not so much for a 335d.

BP makes Amoco Premier Diesel - cetane 47. We don't have Amoco dealers in Raleigh, but several BP dealers list AMOCO diesel on their pump. Problem is the cetane label on the pump states CETANE 40. If they really used Amoco Premier diesel I would think they would want to advertise the higher cetane number. Since the pump states cetane 40 it appears as if Amoco diesel sold at BP stations is only regular Shell diesel rebranded as Amoco.

BP makes BP diesel supreme - cetane rating of 47, but all the BP stations in my town only list the cetane as 40 - the basic low grade diesel.

I spoke with several station owners today and they said I'm the only customer who has ever asked. I don't know if I should be flattered or wonder why buyers of performance diesel cars don't bother to ask about the fuel.

I'm still left with the same problem - every diesel pump in town has a 40 cetane rating. That means I can't unlock the true potential of the 335d engine until I find a solution. 

Not a good feeling - not good at all.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Snipe656 said:


> Interesting because at the supplier/depot they are supposed to blend in different things based upon where the fuel is going to end up from the truck transporting it out. So for example Chevron actually does random testing of their fuel to make sure fuel that is pumped out of stations with their name meets their specs.
> 
> *To the OP I went through this whole fuel thing worry a year ago and made my decision on what to use after finally contacting the manufacturers*.


So why the suspense? What was your decision regarding which brand of diesel to buy?


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I only use Chevron but fuels are different in regions which is why I left that detail off.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Snipe656 said:


> I only use Chevron but fuels are different in regions which is why I left that detail off.


Any advice on how to determine the Chevron cetane rating in South Florida. There is a Chevron with diesel 2 minutes from my front door, but the pump makes no mention of cetane rating.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Any advice on how to determine the Chevron cetane rating in South Florida. There is a Chevron with diesel 2 minutes from my front door, but the pump makes no mention of cetane rating.


If I recall correctly I contacted them via some contact page on their website. From what I recall I think they nationally try to meet a certain cetane rating but also do not guarantee that goal. I think it was something like for CARB they make it at a certain cetane level and due to that they try to meet at least level in the other regions. For Shell I think they only promise some level, which I think is the 40 number people were posting but they do state they add some stuff to the fuel that brings the cetane level up. I just did not feel Shell was any better than Chevron so I opted to go with Chevron. I get a discount on Chevron anyway so that too made it make sense to stop with the Shell. Shell though is the only place around here where some stations have the label "premium diesel". No stations around here have a cetane level posted.

I really think if you stick with a name brand then you will be fine. Also after I spent all that time looking into things and worrying, I then saw some link posted on here that was to BMW's website. That page explained how if you do not run the desired cetane rating that the car compensates for that. Although I'd personally just rather run the cetane the car was designed for.


----------



## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

d geek said:


> I don't follow. Please explain.


Sorry. I meant to say that more cetane additive equates to less room for diesel (by volume) in the tank. Not really an issue for us since most additives have dosage limits of ~8 oz.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Sorry. I meant to say that more cetane additive equates to less room for diesel (by volume) in the tank. Not really an issue for us since most additives have dosage limits of ~8 oz.


Are you saying they just don't worry about adding additives or that they do not even worry about the levels of the cetane in the fuel itself being pumped?


----------



## thisispaul (Mar 16, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> Chevron elsewhere on their website lists a much higher cetane rating for CARB than what is on that link. Not sure where it is on their site though, I'd have to go hunting for it but I bet the number was the same as what is listed on the TDI forums.


Sure. In California Chevron cetane is claimed to be 53 (http://www.chevron.com/products/tips/fuel-school/?&aID=98&cID=26).

And in Texas, minimum of 48 (http://www.chevron.com/products/tips/fuel-school/?&aID=101&cID=26).

I'm concerned with Utah, which apparently is 40.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

thisispaul said:


> Sure. In California Chevron cetane is claimed to be 53 (http://www.chevron.com/products/tips/fuel-school/?&aID=98&cID=26).
> 
> And in Texas, minimum of 48 (http://www.chevron.com/products/tips/fuel-school/?&aID=101&cID=26).
> 
> I'm concerned with Utah, which apparently is 40.


The one I am thinking about goes on to say how they try to meet whatever the cetane rating they stated in all regions. Here is a snippet of it that I had quoted somewhere else:



> Typical Chevron production excluding California and Hawaii is 48 cetane. Chevron guarantees product limits only; typicals are average properties, and higher and lower values are to be expected.


----------



## thisispaul (Mar 16, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> The one I am thinking about goes on to say how they try to meet whatever the cetane rating they stated in all regions. Here is a snippet of it that I had quoted somewhere else:


So now the obsessive-compulsive kicks in. The number on Chevron's "contact us" page for technical information on their fuels is disconnected. The "submit" button to email them appears to be broken, at least from my browser. A call to a general number gets me transferred to an answering machine, which results in a call back from a nice woman who gives me the number to Chevron's refinery here in SLC. Score! Two messages in with them; we'll see what that yields.


----------



## lencap (Jun 22, 2008)

Unfortunately the more I dig for information the worse it gets. Try this for frustration.

I contacted several station owners in Raleigh, NC. Several told me that they get their diesel from large distributors who get their diesel fuel from the main pipeline that originates in Louisiana. That pipeline requires a minimum cetane rating of 40. The distributors tell me that there is little benefit for anyone to feed higher than 40 cetane diesel into the pipeline since any supplier is free to produce diesel that just meets the minimum standard. 

Even if some refiners add higher quality fuel to the pipeline it is likely diluted by the larger quantity of lower grade diesel from other refiners/suppliers.

The bottom line is that in an area that feeds primarily on the road truckers (most of the Southeast) all that is required to make the trucks run is 40 cetane fuel - and that's what they produce. 

One station owner told me that even if he wanted to buy premium diesel there wouldn't be enough demand for the supplier to produce it. He owns a chain of 8 stations - only 4 sell diesel. 

I've placed calls to BP and Shell and await their reply - both agree that my area of the country is a 40 cetane area. BP was the most frustrating. They do produce a higher cetane premium diesel fuel, but there isn't sufficient demand in my area to justify the increased costs of transportation and refining - so despite BP's ability and willingness to sell higher grade diesel the overwhelming demand of truckers for low cost diesel outweighs the demand from performance diesel passenger car owners.

I will continue to report my findings as I get them. I also placed a call to a senior BMW exec who is trying to help sort all of this out. I'll provide details as they are available. By the way he did confirm several things: BMW's recommendation for not including more biodiesel in their recommended fuel is due to the lack of standards for biodiesel fuel. He notes that testing confirms that biodiesel manufacturers produce widely differing levels of biodiesel quality. Until a standard emerges, BMW suggests only minimal amounts of biodiesel in their vehicles.

The reason for not using additives is related to the catalytic converters. The type of additive used can impact the converters and if that happens it is a major expense. This executive agrees that European diesel is generally superior to US diesel and that BMW vehicles using 51 cetane or higher fuel will generally perform to a level as originally designed by BMW. The implication, although not directly stated, is that the 335d engine will "dumb down" the engine to meet the quality of the fuel fed into the engine. I imagine its similar to what happens when you fuel a gasoline fed BMW with regular gas instead of premium - the car runs well enough, but not to its full potential. 

Again - as I learn more I'll post my findings. I will say that BMW USA, BP and Shell have been very civil and helpful, have put me in contact with high level executives that are willing to help and sympathetic to the needs of performance enthusiasts, and actually want to provide premium fuel to everyone - after all the profit margin would justify the results.

I just wish that the premium diesel owners would band together to make our desires known to the service station owners - if they sense a higher profit margin I suspect they would be willing to support premium diesel all the time.


----------



## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

lencap said:


> I just wish that the premium diesel owners would band together to make our desires known to the service station owners - if they sense a higher profit margin I suspect they would be willing to support premium diesel all the time.


I agree it would be nice. Unfortunately, if you take he total diesel demand, subtract the large truck demand, then subtract the pick-up truck demand, then subtract the people with personal diesel vehicles that would buy the cheapest diesel, there really isn't a lot of demand left, even if it has a higher profit margin.

I'm afraid that until there are a lot more luxury/performance diesel vehicles on the road, there won't be much premium diesel available. In a 10,000 mile trip through the West camping, I only found premium diesel in one place -- Jackson Hole.


----------



## thisispaul (Mar 16, 2010)

Penguin said:


> . . . . In a 10,000 mile trip through the West camping, I only found premium diesel in one place -- Jackson Hole.


And that's probably only so Harrison Ford can fill up his Ford Super Duty.


----------



## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

I did seem to get better mpg with the one tank of Premium diesel I bought, but one tank is much too small of a sample to really conclude anything.


----------



## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

lencap said:


> Unfortunately the more I dig for information the worse it gets. Try this for frustration.
> 
> I contacted several station owners in Raleigh, NC. Several told me that they get their diesel from large distributors who get their diesel fuel from the main pipeline that originates in Louisiana. That pipeline requires a minimum cetane rating of 40. The distributors tell me that there is little benefit for anyone to feed higher than 40 cetane diesel into the pipeline since any supplier is free to produce diesel that just meets the minimum standard.
> 
> ...


Aside from the engine 'dumbing down' due to the lower cetane that's about what I gathered in my research over a year ago.

Personally my feeling about ULSD in the US is that refiners/additive companies (provide aftermarket additives) wanted to insure the ULSD did NOT meet EURO standards in order to preserve current and future revenues.* Long haul truckers weren't thrilled about it because they felt they wouldn't benefit either (cost of diesel would go up higher than it is now, and they would have received little benefit from the higher cetane and better lubricity).

Thankfully the ACEA release standards for biodiesel back in 2008 or so, and biodiesel in very small concentrations (B2/B5 for example) provides tremendous improvements in lubricity (wear scar numbers reach that of or go below euro diesel standards).

* What I mean by this is that aftermarket additive companies could retain market share for selling their cetane booster and lubricity improvers only IF our ULSD didn't meet Euro standards. Also, the current standards gave refiners and oil companies the ability to bring 'premium' diesel to market if demand rose to that point. With Euro quality diesel there's little reason to offer 'premium' quality.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

My worry is how clean of a burn happens when the engine "dumbs down". The dirtier the burn leads to the more chances of buildup on the bakside of the valves. Being a DI motor means simply adding additives after the fact to break up that buildup will not have the desired effect. I know back purging systems exist for this, one even being developed by Chevron and licensed or sold to BMW for service use. Might not even be a valid worry at the end of the day though.


----------



## pogopop77 (Jun 19, 2009)

lencap said:


> Unfortunately the more I dig for information the worse it gets. Try this for frustration.
> 
> I contacted several station owners in Raleigh, NC. Several told me that they get their diesel from large distributors who get their diesel fuel from the main pipeline that originates in Louisiana. That pipeline requires a minimum cetane rating of 40. The distributors tell me that there is little benefit for anyone to feed higher than 40 cetane diesel into the pipeline since any supplier is free to produce diesel that just meets the minimum standard.
> 
> ...


I spent a lot of time wrestling with similar issues when I bought my 335d a couple of years ago. My experience is that no one brand (on the east coast) is guaranteed to be premium (> 45 cetane). Labels higher than 40 are rare. BP and Shell seem to be the most likely to have premium diesel, but you have to try out their fuel to really be sure.

I've had the best luck with BP stations that used to be Amoco, but it's still a pretty low hit rate. In your area, you could try checking out these stations:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=amoco....767686,-78.684082&spn=0.733194,1.381531&z=10

If you do find a station with premium diesel, please let me know and I'll add it to a map I'm working on...


----------



## thisispaul (Mar 16, 2010)

"Dear Mr. thisispaul,

Thank you for the inquiry. The minimum cetane rating for diesel fuel sold in the US is 40. Chevron can only guarantee the product specifications. The cetane rating of each batch of diesel fuel will vary, but will always be above 40. The U.S. average cetane is 45. There is no way to tell what the "at the retail pump" cetane value would be and is not required to be posted by law, as is the case for gasoline octane minimum rating.


Sincerely,

Chevron Fuels Technical Services"

:thumbdwn:


----------



## Diesel Bimmer (Aug 20, 2007)

We need to start a campaign to:

1. Have the minimum U.S. diesel fuel cetane raised to a higher level (45 or 50), and 

2. Require diesel fuel cetane ratings to be posted at the pump.


----------



## thisispaul (Mar 16, 2010)

For what it's worth: I happened to spot a Sinclair fuel truck driver filling tanks this morning and pulled over to chat. He says that in winter he knows for a fact they pull from a pipeline with premium diesel and he thought he remembered 55 for cetane. Wasn't sure about summer fuel. A call to corporate gets me a confirmation of around 50 all year long. They claim they run premium diesel exclusively even though the pumps aren't marked.


----------



## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> .... With Euro quality diesel there's little reason to offer 'premium' quality.


They do sell premium diesel in Europe.


----------



## lencap (Jun 22, 2008)

Thisispaul - what region do you deliver to? I'd love to find premium diesel.


----------



## thisispaul (Mar 16, 2010)

Er... I'm in higher education. They don't let me drive big trucks.


----------



## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

dunderhi said:


> They do sell premium diesel in Europe.


lol..I knew someone would chime in about that, but you have to wonder how much they sell. Would I pay more for diesel with a cetane of 55 over 50? no. I've read on the UK forums that some people don't notice a difference between their 'premium' and non-premium diesel but I don't know if the UK follows the EU in this regard.


----------

