# Small RWD coupes or sedans



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Why has this market been completely abandoned? Where are the small, solid roof, nimble RWD cars?

I picked up my e90 330i in April and no matter how much I drive the car, I always feel like I'm behind the wheel of some big, manual-based Buick. The car's so quiet, refined and heavy that I never get the sensation I'm _driving_. Even at 140+ MPH on the Autobahn the car bored the blazes out of me. Carving canyons on side roads in Switzerland was mildly fun but the car failed to leave me breathless. The car feels buttoned-down and nearly unflappable; the e90 also lacks urgency and the connected feeling I love in cars while also feeling positively massive.

Everyone at work looks at me as if I'm nuts because I shrug when asked about my e90. How could I fly across the planet for a car I don't like? Why did I buy a car I knew bored me compared to my ZHP? Desperation. My ZHP was unreliable and I couldn't find anything truly fun with RWD and a fixed roof.

Anyway, am I alone in this? Am I the only person who still wants a small (sub 3000 lbs) car with a fixed roof?

These options I'm discounting based on age and difficulty finding stock versions:

95 Turbo MR2 
95 RX-7 
NSX

So what else is there?

Used 911? Some of you guys are hardcore Porsche 911 fans. Is there a model/year range that offers great bang for the buck?

Anything else? No to the Vette, Mustang, Camaro, etc *anything* American or BMW (sorry, don't trust BMWs to run worth a damn).


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Why has this market been completely abandoned? Where are the small, solid roof, nimble RWD cars?


I think the market was abandoned due to lack of interest. Years ago, everyone built RWD small cars, but now they don't so there's nothing to base the sporty models on. Its hard to develop a new platform and then use it only for a small volume product. The mass-market drones could care less what wheels drive and have been convinced by advertising that FWD is better. A coupe built on the Miata platform would be great, but they didn't import the last generation Miata coupe either. Small 2-seat coupes don't sell as well as the convertible versions - the M roadster for example will sell better than the M coupe.


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## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> Why has this market been completely abandoned? Where are the small, solid roof, nimble RWD cars?
> 
> I picked up my e90 330i in April and no matter how much I drive the car, I always feel like I'm behind the wheel of some big, manual-based Buick. The car's so quiet, refined and heavy that I never get the sensation I'm _driving_. Even at 140+ MPH on the Autobahn the car bored the blazes out of me. Carving canyons on side roads in Switzerland was mildly fun but the car failed to leave me breathless. The car feels buttoned-down and nearly unflappable; the e90 also lacks urgency and the connected feeling I love in cars while also feeling positively massive.
> 
> ...


NSX would be my choice. Due to the original entry fee, that would be the most likely candidate to find in stock form. I checked them out when I was looking for something more fun than the Bimmer and without practicality in mind - ended up with a 300ZX twin turbo, which was a bit difficult to find in virgin form. The forums for those cars are a great resource and might be your best bet as far as finding a bone stock specimen.


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## Jspeed (Dec 23, 2001)

How about getting an S14 240SX and do an SR20DET swap?


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Jspeed said:


> How about getting an S14 240SX and do an SR20DET swap?


Funny I saw a 240SX on my drive home tonight and thought of that. My dad's in the middle of building some stupid cobra race car but after he finishes I bet he could do a 240sx engine swap for me. Retired gearhead dads can be useful.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

It's the RWD part that kills it. There are tons of small two door cars out there.

But frankly, most of the buying public does not care if a car is front or real wheel drive.

Most of America is looking for nice, reliable transportation. Tiny cars are not practical for most folks. They buy cars that can meet many needs.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

there is none :tsk:


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

chuck92103 said:


> It's the RWD part that kills it. There are tons of small two door cars out there.
> 
> But frankly, *most of the buying public does not care if a car is front or real wheel drive.*
> 
> Most of America is looking for nice, reliable transportation. Tiny cars are not practical for most folks. They buy cars that can meet many needs.


they do care. it's just that they have been brainwashed to think that rwd's are bad in the snow. 

and most people in us'of'a buy pickup trucks. the top seller down there is the ford f150.
else it's the minivan or suv. :tsk:

small cars are just not that popular. not like europe or anywhere else in the world.

the sport car phase of the early 90's has gone and past. the suv is almost at it's tail end. the 4 dr sports sedan rwd craze started about late 90's and seems to be still going.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

HW said:


> they do care. it's just that they have been brainwashed to think that rwd's are bad in the snow.
> 
> and most people in us'of'a buy pickup trucks. the top seller down there is the ford f150.
> else it's the minivan or suv. :tsk:
> ...


But less not forget, go look at the tiny cheap small cars in France for example. Their roads are tiny. There is no parking. A lot of folks ride scooters. They could care less about smog there. Crappy polluting little cars. We don't have them because they are huge polluters and they will not meet our safety regulations.

Your best bet is a Z coupe or maybe BMW will bring the 1 series here. But that car will still be over $30k.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

chuck92103 said:


> But less not forget, go look at the tiny cheap small cars in France for example. Their roads are tiny. There is no parking. A lot of folks ride scooters. They could care less about smog there. Crappy polluting little cars. We don't have them because they are huge polluters and they will not meet our safety regulations.
> 
> Your best bet is a Z coupe.


what is the per-capita output of pollutants in france vs. the u.s.? :dunno: isn't it just recently that light trucks/suvs require tier ii standards to be phased in the u.s. and a large % of people in the u.s. operate light trucks/suvs.

i love some of those peogeot's. may not run very well but nice lookin. :thumbup:

perhaps little cars because people are not as obese there :dunno: and gas is $$$.

as for roads, it's usually the older the city, the narrower the roads... it's not like they would tear up heritage buildings and landmarks to widen up the roads for wider cars.

well, if we only we all can afford bmw's. let them have cake i say. :angel:


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

chuck92103 said:


> Most of America is looking for nice, reliable transportation. Tiny cars are not practical for most folks. *They buy cars that can meet many needs.*


:rofl: a hummer just meets my needs :thumbup:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> Used 911? Some of you guys are hardcore Porsche 911 fans. Is there a model/year range that offers great bang for the buck?
> 
> Anything else? No to the Vette, Mustang, Camaro, etc *anything* American or BMW (sorry, don't trust BMWs to run worth a damn).


Depending on your budget, on the high side, 996 GT3, can be had for 75K nowadays.

On the low side, no frills 993 C2.

For the 996, get a dealer one with CPO.

For the 993, get one from rennlist or PCA members. A not well cared for 993 is expensive repair waiting to happen.

And BTW, I am no hardcore Porsche fan, I would have bought the M3 CSL instead of the Turbo, but they decided to not bring that sweet car here.

Lastly, aty loves his Elise, but it is pretty bare bone, and if you are on the taller side, fit will be an issue.


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## WildKarrde (Jun 14, 2006)

NSX would be a great car if you could find one... you could get a hardtop for a Miata if you don't need any storage. The very first thing that popped into my head was the RX-8 though... mad fun. I test drove an RX-8 for my 3rd time one day... right before test driving a '01 Porsche Boxter. I know,I know... it's evil, but I'd take the RX-8 over the Porsche without even batting an eye. The Porsche is a wonderfully engineered vehicle... but in my opinion just not as fun as the RX-8. It's too solid, too controllable, too much traction, too big of a powerband... it drives itself.

Other options include the Nissan 350Z, Lexus IS300, umm... the Chrysler Crossfire is a Mercedes. I'm hard pressed to think of others... but I'm sure there's a couple more out there.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I feel the same way with my ZHP, it's not nearly as fun as I'd hoped. But other than an E36 M3 or 328i sedan, I can't think of another car that would be better. 

The market is not forgotten, Mazda is bringing out a small rear-drive coupe (MX-3 I think?) which thankfully won't be a rotary. BMW will bring the 2 coupe. 

I think light front-drivers can be more fun though - certainly an ITR is more fun than my ZHP, same goes for the Cooper S. But yeah, RWD and light would be better still.


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## bear330 (Oct 10, 2005)

Dawg90 said:


> The market is not forgotten, Mazda is bringing out a small rear-drive coupe (MX-3 I think?) which thankfully won't be a rotary.


Are you referring to the Kabura concept? It is still only a possibility though. There is actually a forum dedicated to it:

http://www.kaburaforums.com/forums/

But yeah, it would be cool if they do build it.


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

My take:

Americans don't really want sporty cars (at least not in using the definition you outlined).

They want cars that are big, powerful, comfortable, safe, and hopefully reliable. To the extent that 'sport' versions of these models are offered, I'd say that's because a lot of guys like to _think_ of themselves as the type that drives sporty cars.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

bear1234 said:


> Are you referring to the Kabura concept? It is still only a possibility though. There is actually a forum dedicated to it:
> 
> http://www.kaburaforums.com/forums/
> 
> But yeah, it would be cool if they do build it.




























:thumbup: some style elements could be improved but overall, very nice!


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Thanks for the all the suggestions. I forgot about the Chrysler Crossfire. I've heard it's a blast to drive but I believe it's an automatic. Still I'll check it out.

I know Miatas very well - my family has owned several. They're insane fun and for 07 they're even offering a folding hardtop - http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/1261

The Porsche question - I did some research but not extensive. The 993s seem pretty cheap but they can be pricey to keep running? The early 996s might be a good option.

Kabura = dreamy for me.

This weekend I'll give the new Civic SI a shot. A coworker with an M3 drove one last Saturday and he dug it. He's looking for something more reliable and far less expensive to operate than his e46 M3 (poor guy has been to the dealer for warranty work constantly and they never solve his problems).

Mazdaspeed3 is really high on my to-try list even though it's FWD. I owned a Protege ES and loved it. And I helped a friend buy an 03 Mazda3 hatch/manual - her car's a gas in the twisties. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=116119

NSX...hmm.

Cooper S: I've only driven the convertible (which was a fat, lousy pig) but ridden in a coworker's Cooper S - choppy ride. Really worried about BMW reliability with the Cooper too.

Anyway, thanks.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

HW said:


> :thumbup: some style elements could be improved but overall, very nice![/QUOTE]
> 
> Perfect. Mazda handling, sub 3k weight, Miata platform...slip in that old 2.3 turbo and they'd have a crazy fast little car that cornered on rails.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

I heard Acura is discontinuing the RSX. not sure about the TSX. Seems the cars are a great value but they are cheapening the Acura brand.

I know it is FWD, but I like the RSX. :thumbup:


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

chuck92103 said:


> I heard Acura is discontinuing the RSX. not sure about the TSX. Seems the cars are a great value but they are cheapening the Acura brand.
> 
> I know it is FWD, but I like the RSX. :thumbup:


yes that's what i've heard too. very sad  that rsx/integra line is a great car. best fwd available. i don't see how it's cheapening the acura line when it's been there at the start. :dunno: the tsx is a pretty good seller from what i've heard. it's also the accord for outside of northamerica. it's too bad that acura has removed the 4 dr integra and replaced it w/ the EL/CSX line of upscaled civics a few years back though. :tsk:


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## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

Reading your valid lament I thought of the RX8, proposed hard-top Miata, and the Lotus Elise. I suppose the 350Z is a bit heavy but it does also handle well. Why does it have to be a hard top? The S2000 is a big powerful go-kart and weighs around 2850 lbs. What about the new GTI? Hadn't heard the weight yet.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

Penforhire said:


> What about the new GTI? Hadn't heard the weight yet.


are they making it rwd now


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## gojira-san (Mar 1, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Thanks for the all the suggestions. I forgot about the Chrysler Crossfire. I've heard it's a blast to drive but I believe it's an automatic. Still I'll check it out.


the crossfire comes with a 6 speed manual standard but only on the regular model. the SRT-6 model only comes with an automatic. I don't think i've ever seen one at the dealer that has a MT though. Doesn't this break your "no American car" rule though? I tend to put the crossfire more in the camp of the GTO - it is a larger grand touring car rather than a small coupe.

The Kabura is nice looking on the outside, but that dash is not my cup of tea.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Penforhire said:


> Reading your valid lament I thought of the RX8, proposed hard-top Miata, and the Lotus Elise. I suppose the 350Z is a bit heavy but it does also handle well. Why does it have to be a hard top? The S2000 is a big powerful go-kart and weighs around 2850 lbs. What about the new GTI? Hadn't heard the weight yet.


Just not sure I want to live with a flapping, uninsulated convertible top. My family has several convertibles and they're fun for a bit. But I'm the kind of guy who uses AC 24/7 in my cars...I'm always warm. Convertibles are almost always hot in my lifelong experience. The hardtop convertibles are attractive to me for this reason - AC most of the time and top down when it's under 70 degrees outside.

RX-8's an idea I've considered. The really bad gas mileage and the underpowered rotary engine make it less attactive. 350z's a tad heavy for me.

GTI's FWD and is not very good handling little car. Great engine/tranny. But the tall design makes it sloppy in hard cornering. The A3's more fun (much lower center of gravity) but again it's FWD (unless you opt for the overpriced A3 3.2 with Audi's stinky Quattro).


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

HW said:


> yes that's what i've heard too. very sad  that rsx/integra line is a great car. best fwd available. i don't see how it's cheapening the acura line when it's been there at the start. :dunno: the tsx is a pretty good seller from what i've heard. it's also the accord for outside of northamerica. it's too bad that acura has removed the 4 dr integra and replaced it w/ the EL/CSX line of upscaled civics a few years back though. :tsk:


According to Acura, selling a Honda civic (RSX) next to a $50k RL that only has a V6 is hurting RL sales.

When you walk into Lexus dealers, cars start around $30-$35k+, Acura can't move RL's because for a lot less money you can get an ES350, or and GS430 if you want a V8.

I think Honda made a mistake with Acura by not offering a V8. Clearly the TL is a huge value over the RL.

I like the RL, but way over priced for what you get.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

chuck92103 said:


> According to Acura, selling a Honda civic (RSX) next to a $50k RL that only has a V6 is hurting RL sales.
> 
> When you walk into Lexus dealers, cars start around $30-$35k+, Acura can't move RL's because for a lot less money you can get an ES350, or and GS430 if you want a V8.
> 
> ...


the CSX is the upscaled civic
the RSX is a coupe that is based on the civic chassis. I guessing it's based on the previous civic chassic.

i don't believe honda has ever offered anything higher than a v6. i'm not sure if it's still the case but japanese manufacturers have to pay additional taxes on each cylinder produced.


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## Betcour (May 23, 2003)

chuck92103 said:


> But less not forget, go look at the tiny cheap small cars in France for example. Their roads are tiny. There is no parking. A lot of folks ride scooters. They could care less about smog there. Crappy polluting little cars. We don't have them because they are huge polluters and they will not meet our safety regulations.


What are you talking about ? Air pollution is monitored and reported in local newspapers everyday and frequently, extra speed limits and special driving rules are enforced on days with "heavy" air pollution. All new cars have to pass Euro standards which are very stricts. Tiny European cars are built following the same standards as larger ones, and are overall less polluting because of their higher fuel efficiency. The cars might be small, but the interior quality and equipment often rival large sedans.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

HW said:


> the CSX is the upscaled civic
> the RSX is a coupe that is based on the civic chassis. I guessing it's based on the previous civic chassic.
> 
> i don't believe honda has ever offered anything higher than a v6. i'm not sure if it's still the case but japanese manufacturers have to pay additional taxes on each cylinder produced.


The Acura Integra was originally base don the Honda Accord. Then Acura lowered to the Civic chassis. Not sure. They even go rid of their upscale coupe. I have no idea what they are thinking.:dunno:


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

chuck92103 said:


> The Acura Integra was originally base don the Honda Accord. Then Acura lowered to the Civic chassis. Not sure. They even go rid of their upscale coupe. I have no idea what they are thinking.:dunno:


i know for sure that the gen2's are from the civic line. i was kinda sad to find that out because i used to have a gen2. so are you saying that the gen1's are based on the accord then? gen3 was civic as well.

those on the accord chassis are: accord, prelude, odyssey, cl, vigor, tl (i think).

i don't think the cl was that popular. it got a lot of hoopla on it's release but it wasn't popular. my beef w/ it was that it was too long. 192" ... that's longer than a volvo s sedan.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

HW said:


> i know for sure that the gen2's are from the civic line. i was kinda sad to find that out because i used to have a gen2. so are you saying that the gen1's are based on the accord then? gen3 was civic as well.
> 
> those on the accord chassis are: accord, prelude, odyssey, cl, vigor, tl (i think).


Yes. I like the first model that came out. :thumbup:


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## 645ilubu (Oct 22, 2004)

Consider the new retractable hardtop Miata:

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/06/20/mazda-miata-to-flip-a-new-lid-with-retractable-hardtop/


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## sunilsf (Sep 22, 2003)

As somebody else mentioned, why not the Z4 Coupe?


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## SWISS (Apr 3, 2005)

blueguydotcom said:


> Why has this market been completely abandoned? Where are the small, solid roof, nimble RWD cars?
> 
> snip *anything* American or BMW (sorry, *don't trust BMWs to run worth a damn*).


:rofl: That's the reason I wouldn't buy one newer than a 99. I have a 89 e30 325i with RWD LSD and it is a blast to drive, with 148k on the clock I drive it to work everyday and the a\c works. Not trust the newer BMW's to run worth a damn, maybe, to put the whole linage in a box, I don't think so.


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## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

I forgot the GTI was FWD. So is the upcoming Mazdaspeed 3, which would otherwise be the sweet spot of what you're asking for!


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## WildKarrde (Jun 14, 2006)

A retractable hardtop on a Miata would rock!! Wonder how much extra it will cost? And how much weight it will add?

If retractable hardtops are in, how about a Mercedes SLK230? I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple that are MTX.



sunilsf said:


> As somebody else mentioned, why not the Z4 Coupe?


He's worried about BMW reliability.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

RX-8... have you driven one? Yes, the thirsty engine is a turn-off, but take a few turns in the thing and you'll find the kind of communication you're looking for.

I saw a recent Car and Driver (July?) where they turbocharged a RX-8 and it makes pretty respectable numbers (low 13s in the quarter) and supposedly is just what the doctor ordered... except for gas mileage. 

Oh, and I also read somewhere that the Kabura is dead in terms of production possibilities...


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

WildKarrde said:


> A retractable hardtop on a Miata would rock!! Wonder how much extra it will cost? And how much weight it will add?
> 
> If retractable hardtops are in, how about a Mercedes SLK230? I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple that are MTX.
> 
> He's worried about BMW reliability.


Miata with hardtop weighs an extra 81 pounds. Not a bad penalty.


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## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

I never thought wind noise or soft-top leaks were an issue in my S2000 but to each his own. I had the early-years plastic rear window so scratching was a problem.


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## WildKarrde (Jun 14, 2006)

blueguydotcom said:


> Miata with hardtop weighs an extra 81 pounds. Not a bad penalty.


Not bad at all... I definately wouldn't mind that.  Now for the price... guess we'll see....


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## wolke9 (Aug 24, 2005)

TD said:


> It's FWD. There is simply no way it has the right feel. Impossible. The wrong wheels are driving.


It's not "impossible". Drive the car and then make an opinion. As I stated, I prefer RWD, but this vehicle has excellent balance and limited Torque Steer for a FWD car. Any car can have the "right" feel for it's respected owner. What is right for you isn't necessarily right for everybody else


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

wolke9 said:


> It's not "impossible". Drive the car and then make an opinion. As I stated, I prefer RWD, but this vehicle has excellent balance and limited Torque Steer for a FWD car. Any car can have the "right" feel for it's respected owner. What is right for you isn't necessarily right for everybody else


The TSX was fun. It feels far more light and nimble than its weight would indicate. The six speed manual is buttery smooth. With more power and a tighter suspension it'd be a really fun car.


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## AK (Jan 19, 2002)

Penforhire said:


> I never thought wind noise or soft-top leaks were an issue in my S2000 but to each his own. I had the early-years plastic rear window so scratching was a problem.


I've owned an '02 S2000 for a couple years now. No issues with the top whatsoever (and '02+ models have the glass window).


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