# 3 series competition - Who are they and could you make the switch



## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

AF330i said:


> *RX8* - 4 doors, engine from clydes report doesn't feel fast (maybe needs to break in:dunno: ) but looks cool, handles beautifully, very comfortable, 4 door convenience in a sports car like body - downside might be resale value since it doesn't seem to be selling too well which is a shame - plus no loaner car when being serviced


I never said that it didn't feel fast, Alan. I said that the engine wasn't exciting and sort of boring, but I never said that it didn't feel fast (or quick for that matter). :tsk:

Resale, who knows? It's selling a little better than Mazda's projected 30,000 annual US sales...but they're delivering more than that to dealers. And it's winter. Still...who knows?

No loaner car? That's contrary to the papers I'm looking at right right now. :neener:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

MR325iT said:


> I took a close look at the RX8 at a car show in Anaheim recently - the benefit of those rear half-doors escapes me. Even with them open, it's pretty tough to get back there. On the other hand, if it's for kids only, it works great. The looks take some getting used to, as would a 1.3 liter engine that needs big revs to make power. Car and Driver said something about a "Honda S2000 power curve". Enjoyable, but a little exhausting after several miles.


My younger brother, who is not a little guy, had no trouble getting into the back of my RX-8 through the rear door opening without having to move the front seat. It actually works out quite well. The power curve is sort of like the S2000, but unlike the S2000, the RX-8 is making almost all of its torque just over idle...and it stays there all the way to the 9,000rpm redline. Also, at 159 ft/lbs, it's not that far off of what the 325i makes at peak (especially when you consider the weight difference between the cars). The S2000 makes almost no torque until you hit 6,000 and then it comes on all of a sudden in a very peaky, exciting way.


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## MR325iT (Feb 21, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> My younger brother, who is not a little guy, had no trouble getting into the back of my RX-8 through the rear door opening without having to move the front seat. The S2000 makes almost no torque until you hit 6,000 and then it comes on all of a sudden in a very peaky, exciting way.


Maybe I'm just a fat @ss. :eeps:

I keep trying to get my wife to go look at the RX8 with me - after she saw one in X-Men2, she got interested.

I was able to get into my old E36 coupe more easily (I had lots of practice putting junior's car seat back there).

The S2000 is definitely a fun little car, and I've never driven anything that handled better. Looks like Honda has upped displacement and made a few oher changes to the S2000 this year for those of us who like a little torque south of 6000 RPM.


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## Kempe (Feb 18, 2002)

You guys need my definitive reply. There is no substitute or equal. 

The G35 coupe is way too small and impractical. It's noisy; the driver's compartment absolutely sucks, pressing on both legs. It's an MCoupe competiitor with lower performance and price.

The G35 sedan handles absolutely tail losing dangerously when you push it. It's noisy, has a punishing ride and the driver's compartment is painful. I'm only 6' and it touches my shoulder and is painful on both legs.

The Audi is beatiful but wife car.

The IS300 is for kids; great in a parking lot, just try to push one on a BUMPY canyon road. You'll die, literally.

The Saab, neat, so?

The TSX, neat fwd 4banger.

The TL, great 530 alternative. I'm gonna buy one. Great power, interior, 6sp, stereo, handsfree stuff, first class. Take on a 330 with fwd, I don't think so. 

The question is do you want a 330i or do you want something very different. If you want what a 330i does, forget it, there ain't no equal. Just drive a G35 and you'll feel the pain while it goes really fast in a narrow band in a straight line.

A TL, great, if you want an E60 with a $20G discount and no silly cateyes or weird steering.

But only a 330 is a 330.

You're welcome.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

1) Honda/Acura RWD sedan (this would be the 3er killer)
2) Porsche "rumored" sedan
3) Ferrari, if I could ever afford one. :angel:


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

G35 Sedan 6-Speed

260 Hp
0-60 in ~6 seconds
1/4 in ~14.5 seconds

LSD Standard

Larger than a 3-series, more standard features.

$32,000 (price they are going out the door for)

The price is so attractive, I just may buy one (I think I may have outgrown the 3-series). 

But, it still doesn't drive like a BMW.


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## Kempe (Feb 18, 2002)

Emission said:


> G35 Sedan 6-Speed
> 
> 260 Hp
> 0-60 in ~6 seconds
> ...


Mike, you're as big as I am. How can you drive it without both legs just being plain old hurting? The door presses my shoulder. the front is smaller than the 330i. Granted, the rear is a lot bigger. And, you drive like I do, what mods are you going to do to take care of the uncontrollable tail. I can lose the tail with very little control, with very little effort on roads where my 330i is a gas, playfully drifting.

The only things I gripe about in my 330 are the noise and room. The G35 is worse on both counts and is no where near as much ftd.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

Kempe said:


> Mike, you're as big as I am. How can you drive it without both legs just being plain old hurting? The door presses my shoulder. the front is smaller than the 330i. Granted, the rear is a lot bigger. And, you drive like I do, what mods are you going to do to take care of the uncontrollable tail. I can lose the tail with very little control, with very little effort on roads where my 330i is a gas, playfully drifting.
> 
> The only things I gripe about in my 330 are the noise and room. The G35 is worse on both counts and is no where near as much ftd.


I'm 6'2" and 190 lbs. I didn't have an issue with the front seat space - my issues are more with the chassis dynamics. I never pushed it hard enough to break the tail lose, but this car will NEVER see any track use (I've got the other car for that). It just has to be mildly entertaining (my Passat is not).

Like I told the HACK today... I think I sold my Passat, so I need:

Sedan
Rear wheel drive
Manual transmission
Needs to seat two adults and two child seats
Price <$35,000 (need to save money for P-car mods!)

My options are limited, especially when you consider my "impractical" car is in my third garage (so the RX-8 is not an option!).

The A4 is too small. The IS300 is too small. I already owned an E46 (and it gets replaced in a year).

My new car options are very, very limited.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Emission said:


> I'm 6'2" and 190 lbs. I didn't have an issue with the front seat space - my issues are more with the chassis dynamics. I never pushed it hard enough to break the tail lose, but this car will NEVER see any track use (I've got the other car for that). It just has to be mildly entertaining (my Passat is not).
> 
> Like I told the HACK today... I think I sold my Passat, so I need:
> 
> ...


Why do you think the RX8 is impractical ? It fits into every thing you have listed above though it's not as roomy as the sedans

Also, can you elaborate on what you mean by out growing the 3 series ?

I know you've driven many of our competitors cars extensively and have alot of time behind the wheel . . . what is it about the G35 Sedan that doesn't quite match the 3er ? Can it be that you are used to the 330 and that the G35 does these things differently ?


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> I never said that it didn't feel fast, Alan. I said that the engine wasn't exciting and sort of boring, but I never said that it didn't feel fast (or quick for that matter). :tsk:
> 
> Resale, who knows? It's selling a little better than Mazda's projected 30,000 annual US sales...but they're delivering more than that to dealers. And it's winter. Still...who knows?
> 
> No loaner car? That's contrary to the papers I'm looking at right right now. :neener:


Ok, that's cool ... thanks for explaining that a little more.

Reading up on the RX8 last night, I saw this from Car & Driver

_With the help of an 8000-rpm clutch drop and the engine buzzing like a flock of angry hornets, the RX-8 scooted to 60 mph in 5.9 seconds and through the quarter-mile in 14.5 seconds at 96 mph. But that performance falls off considerably without a tire-frying launch. In our street-start test from 5 to 60 mph, the RX-8 needed 7.5 seconds-1.6 seconds longer than the hard-launch time, which is twice the deficit we found with either of the other cars. And despite its trim weight and short gearing (20 mph per 1000 rpm in sixth), the RX-8 also had the slowest top-gear acceleration times by a wide margin_

Does this car feel sluggish off the line or does it feel like a fast car espeically how does it companre to your 325 in terms of quickness ?


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

AF330i said:


> Why do you think the RX8 is impractical ? It fits into every thing you have listed above though it's not as roomy as the sedans


I think that you answered your own question to some extent. The RX-8 is perfectly fine for moving four people around town (even if the two in back are adults and the trips are under an hour)...so long as they don't have much stuff to bring. But, while the trunk isn't *that* small, the opening is, which makes it tough to impossible to get some items in there. Our heavy duty stroller won't fit and the lightweight one barely squeaks in. Oh, and if you add the spare tire kit (it comes standard with only fix-a-flat and a compressor), you can kiss away a good chunk of the room and make the access even more difficult.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> Why do you think the RX8 is impractical ? It fits into every thing you have listed above though it's not as roomy as the sedans
> 
> Also, can you elaborate on what you mean by out growing the 3 series ?
> 
> I know you've driven many of our competitors cars extensively and have alot of time behind the wheel . . . what is it about the G35 Sedan that doesn't quite match the 3er ? Can it be that you are used to the 330 and that the G35 does these things differently ?


The RX8 may have four doors - but not in my eyes. I need to load two children into child seats, and I'm not going to do it through a suicide-type entry. Too small and claustrophobic back there too.

I've had two 3-series vehicles (E36 and E46). After owning a loaded 330i, I can't bring myself to buying a mid-pack 325i (my price range) that will feel slow to me. "Out growing" is a bit harsh, and most likely the incorrect choice of words. I also don't want to enter a three-year lease on something that will be replaced in 12 months (once again, especially when I've already owned an E46).

The G35 looks great (actually better than the 3-series) on paper. In reality, however, the $10,000 price difference adds a ton of refinement. There is more engineering, and a lack of cost cutting in the BMW.

Read my article on FreshAlloy:

http://freshalloy.com/site/cars/infiniti/2003/g35/pureperf/home.shtml


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

Alan,

I didn't completely answer your question as to what doesn't feel right on the G35:

Nissan put narrow tires on the G35 (215's with the sport package - my article has a typo). This was to keep interior noise down, and to improve the ride. The G35 Coupe, with the 245's on the rear, roars on the highway. If you put 255's on the back of an E46, the ride barely deteriorates - and sound levels barely increase. This is refinement on BMW's part.

The V6 engine on the G35 is not smooth. Don't give me crap about all the awards it has won - it is not smooth like an inline-6. The shifter buzzes and rattles in your hands. The BMW shifter is solid, and stable. On an item so close to the driving experience, this is unacceptable on the part of Nissan.

The handling felt good, but it just didn't feel right. Hard to describe, most likely impossible to duplicate.

One more thing: Nissan didn't illuminate the steering wheel controls, and many other interior gauges. This is cost cutting - and frustrating.

Remember, the G35 costs about $33,000 pretty much loaded. The same 330i would be about $43,000. 

I can get a killer deal on a G35 (high 20's), so why would I spend $14,000 more for a car I already owned (and sold)? I already have the Porsche if I want fun!


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

AF330i said:


> Does this car feel sluggish off the line or does it feel like a fast car espeically how does it companre to your 325 in terms of quickness ?


In "normal" driving, the RX-8 pulls away from a stop as strongly as a 330 (which is to say better than a 325, particularly a heavy one like mine) and maybe even a little better. It's a function of a much better torque/weight combination at lower revs. The 5-60 test is particularly hard for the RX-8 because it's barely reving above idle at 5mph and stomping on it at that speed will really lug it. WOT at less than 2,000rpm in the RX-8 is not a pleasant experience. OTOH, a "regular" start gets the car moving at above 2k where lugging isn't really an issue.

To answer your question, it doesn't feel sluggish off the line at all. Where other cars start to accelerate more quickly as they start climbing in revs, the RX-8 stays constant and that's the boring nature of it.


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## vexed (Dec 22, 2001)

Emission said:


> I also don't want to enter a three-year lease on something that will be replaced in 12 months (once again, especially when I've already owned an E46).


That may be my predicament next year (November) when my lease expires. If it were today I would most likely lease another E46 but a sedan due the radical change in my family status. Other contenders--they have all been mentioned in this thread. I saw three new TL's being shuttled to the dealer this morning, Acura did a nice job on that one. Once we know what the E90 will look like and when it will be released things will be much clearer.


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## Kempe (Feb 18, 2002)

I disliked the driver's compartment and "break loose" tail on the G35 so much that I just bought a TL. fwd and all, I'd rather have its refinement, engine and comfort than the noise, discomfort and unpredictable handling of the G35. The TL, fwd you gotta think about, etc. is really nice for the family car. It's what my last GS430 shoulda been.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Emission said:


> Alan,
> 
> I didn't completely answer your question as to what doesn't feel right on the G35:


Thanks for giving me a more detailed answer . . . I just looked up one of my old threads where I took a G35 for a long drive so I could refresh my memory about it.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14125&highlight=g35

Something tells me that it really might be what 'we' are used to. We are so used to the German feel that the Japanese feel just doesn't have the same feel. It has a feel of it's own and over time we would get used to that feel and maybe start to think that the german cars are too heavy feeling. I remember that was the one thing i didn't like about BMW's back in the day when I had an RX7 and my mother had an 1987 325is. I was so used to the japanese feel, I really didn't appreciate the german feel. I always felt my RX7 was a much better driving car and was a real sports car compared to her car which felt like a sedan (though it was a coupe)


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Kempe said:


> I disliked the driver's compartment and "break loose" tail on the G35 so much that I just bought a TL. fwd and all, I'd rather have its refinement, engine and comfort than the noise, discomfort and unpredictable handling of the G35. The TL, fwd you gotta think about, etc. is really nice for the family car. It's what my last GS430 shoulda been.


We want details about the TL ... did you trade in your BMW for it ?


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

orion7701 said:


> I would also add the Saab 9-3, I test drove the fully loaded one (don't remember the model.. Arc??) and was trully impressed. Nice handling, excellent seats, strong pull from the turbo.
> 
> IMHO, if I was looking around the 9-3 would definitly be on the list as a possibility.


I agree. The SAAB 93 had a pretty good feel though I was turned off by all of the bugs. Especially the stalling bug. I drove the linear, the arc and the aero and thought that the Linear performed just fine. Good acceleration, precise steering, etc. On all 3 the seats were comfortable but the interior seemed cheese. Then, SAAB stopped leasing in NY so that ended that idea. Also, SAABS depreciate quickly so they are not that economical to lease. My only The 9-5 has a better interior but I felt that the gas pedal and brake pedal were too close and I was getting leg cramps on the test drive.

And to me, the TL is Coyote ugly. I would get a Crown Vic before that one.


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## Kempe (Feb 18, 2002)

OK, I did not trade the 330i. The TL is the family car. First, what I don't like about the G35 is that I always drive like a squirrel. I can't take a 270deg on ramp without trying to slide the car. In the 330i, no sweat, fun drifts and the stability control is indulgent or easy to defeat. In the TL, no sweat, I jsut keep accelerating, lifting the front end and doing a sort of weird push/slide. In the G35, bam, all at once I'm it "throttle off" at the merge point of the on ramp because of the skid control or, if I turned it off, it's a 180. I can't modulate the tail worth a damn.

So, the TL is quieter, better ride, better seats than my GS430. The seats feel just like 5series sp seats. It's absolutely flat cornering. It's a revver, not a torquer. It doesn't snap like the 330i. It's faster, but it revs there. It has high cornering limits but it's fwd. You gotta plan your entry and exit differently, brake early and evenly accelerate through and out. If you don't bring on the throttle just right, torque steer. No 180, just torque steer. 550 mi trip to LA this last weekend, 28mpg; it'll get better.

The stereo, DVD audio is something to behold. Great 6sp, quicker than the bimmer. All in all, it's comfy and quiet and fast and flat.

Handle like a 330i? Somebody's pulling your leg. But it'll fly to Yosemite with a lot more confidence and comfort than a G35 or IS300. And so far, I've found no bugs or gotchas. I drove it off the lot to the tire store and put on Goodyear F1s.


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