# Is BMW one of the worst car manufacturers around, why so many problems?



## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Cmhyde72 said:


> I just came over to the BMW world two weeks ago. I searched long and hard for the right 750LI. I have been an Acura guy forever but needed something bigger. I had an Acura TL, Acura RL, Acura TL, then a 2010 Acura TL. I need something bigger and the Acura RLX had 0 excitement. It was boring to drive and the technology was kinda boring too. I can say that looking at used BMW's and what had been done to them under warranty/maintenance plans was eye opening. Replacing turbo chargers at 25,000 miles? Gasket oil leaks at 30,000 miles? Coil and fuel injector failures galore. I thought it would be just one or two bad apples but pretty much all of the ones I looked at had major work done and hadn't even reached 40,000 miles yet. I never had any issues out of my Acura's at all. Kept the oil changed, filters changed, and did regular maintenance and nothing major ever broke.
> Oh well I do love my 2009 750LI and it has so much more room than my TL. As my Dad used to say "you have to pick your battles"


I understand your pain, I too was looking at some 750's as prices are amazingly low but after the valve stem issues just decided it wasn't worth the risk, I'm generally put off by the BMW brand though.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Kafkaesque328 said:


> This doesnt count for much but this is my 2nd car with the n20 and it has been as reliable as is possible. Zero issues. But the last car was new and driven 3 years, this one ive only had 6 mos so yeah. I only drive 10-12k miles per year so it would take me almost a decade to put 100k on one of these cars so them lasting until the apocalypse is of no concern to me. I think they are engineered to work well when new and they require more maintenance and TLC than your average camry or appliance car, hence much of the complaining.
> 
> If you look at reliability statistics BMW is average to slightly better than average in JD Power ratings and beat out quite a few brands. But yes they are sensitive high maintenance machines and if you want a car you can beat on for years with only oil and filter changes at Jiffy Lube this isn't the brand for you.
> 
> ...


That's just the thing, I think BMW are scatting by on quality perception because most people don't keep the cars for long enough to notice the long term quality problems and theres nothing wrong with this for people who can afford or are willing to spend the money and constantly change the car every couple of years.

I'm a guy who bought an e90 with about 68K miles and now have 120K miles on it in this period I have spent approximately $10,000 on parts. You want to know what's even scarier, I've done all the work myself and bought all the parts from non stealership places.

Now if this is normal to you, I think you need to own a different brand of a car as you've been brainwashed by BMW as to what you will accept as normal. Imagine if I bought all geunine parts and had to pay for labor as well!!

Had a Mazda 6 (2003) from around the same miles, I spend about $800 in a similar period.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Spectre. said:


> I am referring to the OP's first post and have to agree with him. I think your last sentence is a bit harsh.
> 
> I know of an E90 that, under 100K km's has had a radiator replaced, electric waterpump replaced, starter motor replaced and a few other minor issues.
> Compare that to older BMW's, that were, from my experience, super reliable, no problems.
> ...


Honestly it's getting ridiculous the problems there cars are still having and some at super low mileage. People can even say, Oh but I have warranty and I don't keep it after warranty, but I would say to those people that most people don't have the time to take the car in to get it serviced yet alone regular trips for warranty work.

Google F30 oil leak, I'm actually shocked how many threads there are, then google w205 oil leak it really shows a huge difference and this is just one specific google search on a very specific issue.


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## greyhouse (Jan 19, 2017)

*Reliability*

These reliability issues and premature problems in these BMWs could it be that 80 percent are leases and the lesse is wailing on the caras soon as he gets it instead of following manufacturers break in period knowing they'll be done with it before the issues they may have caused appear? I hope so ,because I'm a 20 percenter


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## Folgen Sie Mir (Jan 5, 2014)

The more sophisticated the auto, the more that can go wrong. They are computers on wheels. If BMW is Microsoft, Acura is Mac (nice but not as fun).

Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

greyhouse said:


> These reliability issues and premature problems in these BMWs could it be that 80 percent are leases and the lesse is wailing on the caras soon as he gets it instead of following manufacturers break in period knowing they'll be done with it before the issues they may have caused appear? I hope so ,because I'm a 20 percenter


Babying the car during the initial break in period is more likely to lead to problems later on. Regularly getting on the power and practicing frequent and firm application of power will be better for the engine over the long term. Oil consumption will go down sooner and power and mileage improvements will come sooner than if the engine were babied and the car never driven hard. "Drive it like you stole it" applies.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

Folgen Sie Mir said:


> *The more sophisticated the auto, the more that can go wrong. *They are computers on wheels. If BMW is Microsoft, Acura is Mac (nice but not as fun).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


Yes, and the car becomes more of a victim of "Space Shuttle Syndrome" due to the greatly increased complexity.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

My BMWs might be somewhat of a corner case because I've had next to no problems while logging a combined total of around 190k miles in less than 4 years (87k on 535d (new), 102k on X5 35d w/154k on odometer due to CPO @ 52k miles). I am the only driver of my cars and I split my driving 1k miles/week between them. 100k miles represents a little under 2 years of driving for me so I put the miles on quickly. If I were going to run into early life problems with my BMWs I probably would have already had them by now.

One thing with cars in general is that they need to be driven and driven frequently instead of being kept as garage queens. One of the worst things you can do to any car is let it sit around and atrophy from non-use. Some people's problems reported may be related to age and infrequent use especially if they put less than average miles per year on their cars. I've owned 3 VW TDIs over the past 14 years and got great service out of them for the most part. I say for the most part because my 2005 VW Jetta Wagen TDI was my "garage queen" and it experienced an early timing belt failure which took out the engine. The failure occurred out of warranty but before it was due. The timing belt was bumping up against the age limit for the belt and the effects of dry rot due to infrequent use of the car were factors leading to the failure. Meanwhile I logged over 300k miles over 8 years in my 02 VW Golf TDI and had zero problems, just routine maintenance. In 2010 I sold the car to a coworker whose son needed a car for college and that was at only 361k miles. The 02 Golf TDI is still on the road today at over 400k miles on it in the hands of the second owner.

Cars need to be driven regularly instead of just sitting around being garage queens.

Have fun!


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

aleks001 said:


> All opinions, insults and thoughts are welcome


Opinion: interwebs is a microcosm for folks who love or hate something. The vast plurality of folks go on perfectly happy with their purchase choice; moreover, it is qualitatively untrue that BMW is the worst car maker around or that BMWs suffer from many problems.

Insult: you are an idiot:rofl::thumbup::rofl:

Thought: I wonder if I should get a chili dog today.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Folgen Sie Mir said:


> The more sophisticated the auto, the more that can go wrong. They are computers on wheels. If BMW is Microsoft, Acura is Mac (nice but not as fun).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


I've heard this before and I think it is one of the most flawed arguments out there. What specific electronics are you talking about that your average, mazda, honda, subaru or toyota doesn't have these days ?

I also don't think BMW has any real issues with electronics there are very few problems.

What does any of this sophistication have to do with oil leaks, timing chain wear, pealing plastics etc etc ?

Don't kid yourself these cars electonically are nothing special and most electronics things are not made by BMW. ABS/Stability control = ATE, BOSCH, Adaptive cruise control = Bosch. You will find very few electronic systems actually made by BMW.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

imtjm said:


> Opinion: interwebs is a microcosm for folks who love or hate something. The vast plurality of folks go on perfectly happy with their purchase choice; moreover, it is qualitatively untrue that BMW is the worst car maker around or that BMWs suffer from many problems.
> 
> Insult: you are an indiot:rofl::thumbup::rofl:
> 
> Thought: I wonder if I should get a chili dog today.


I think your letting your self down with that Insult, you can do better man, put some effort in.


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## Folgen Sie Mir (Jan 5, 2014)

A 1965 mustang 6cyl has less BS that could go wrong than an 08 535xi

Besides my shot @ Apple (reliable, but boring), it was a broad statement. What codes does a 65 mustang kick out when the O2 sensor goes bad? Or how about the CEL for the ambient temp sensor keeping it from passing emissions, or the battery registration, or the headlight leveling malfunction, or etc...

Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Folgen Sie Mir said:


> A 1965 mustang 6cyl has less BS that could go wrong than an 08 535xi
> 
> Besides my shot @ Apple (reliable, but boring), it was a broad statement. What codes does a 65 mustang kick out when the O2 sensor goes bad? Or how about the CEL for the ambient temp sensor keeping it from passing emissions, or the battery registration, or the headlight leveling malfunction, or etc...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


I think its a bit silly to compare a car made over 50 years ago to modern car.

Compare a Modern lexus to a Modern German and tell me how there is a huge technological difference yet somehow there is a vast difference between the reliability and let me tell you from first hand experience being in one of the new lexus IS's they are not that inferior to a BMW infact I would say the current lexus interiors and exteriors (although design being very subjective) Is much nicer than BMW's.

There are also very few people that would be able to tell a handling difference between the two as most people just commute to work with these cars.


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## Folgen Sie Mir (Jan 5, 2014)

aleks001 said:


> I think its a bit silly to compare a car made over 50 years ago to modern car.
> 
> Compare a Modern lexus to a Modern German and tell me how there is a huge technological difference yet somehow there is a vast difference between the reliability and let me tell you from first hand experience being in one of the new lexus IS's they are not that inferior to a BMW infact I would say the current lexus interiors and exteriors (although design being very subjective) Is much nicer than BMW's.
> 
> There are also very few people that would be able to tell a handling difference between the two as most people just commute to work with these cars.


 I'm really not interested in what you have to say. You'll have to find someone else to play with.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

aleks001 said:


> I think your letting your self down with that Insult, you can do better man, put some effort in.


yeah, i wrote indiot instead of idiot...i can't even get an insult correct


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Folgen Sie Mir said:


> I'm really not interested in what you have to say. You'll have to find someone else to play with.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


You're a weird person aren't you.

First of all this is my thread so you are not obliged to comment or even read it if you don't like it.

Secondly I think all the points I made make more sense than anything you have had to say, like comparing a 65 mustang to a 2016 BMW , so please feel free to not comment any further on this thread. Everything I have stated can be backed up with some evidence, does this mean all cars have experienced it, no, but in my mind there are too many reports online of these common issues compared to other manufacturers.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

imtjm said:


> yeah, i wrote indiot instead of idiot...i can't even get an insult correct


C'mon man your just sinking further and further lol Come back when you got some real insults lol


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit...fective-according-proposed-class-action-suit/

I wonder what BMW offered for the suit to be pulled.

So much quality. 
https://topclassactions.com/tag/bmw-class-action-lawsuit/


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## Dio///M (Jul 12, 2015)

Those who love Bmw's do so because they want to own a vehicle that provides a exhilarating driving experience and own a car of precision engineering, forward thinking innovation built by a company that refuse to settle in the groove...
These characteristics come at a higher cost in terms of purchase and maintenance, those who don't get this usually happen to hate Bmw's.
Bmw's are designed by people who love to drive for people who love to drive, appreciate precision and are willing to pay for it.
Lesser cars are designed by people who take the bus to work.

NOW TO MY EXPERIENCES.
I've owned 6 Bmw's in 15 years and each one was always bought as a pre-owned vehicle. From a E30, E36, Z3 and a E46, E39 and E36 euro M3. The last 3 I still own and take care of meticulously and have learned to practise PREVENTATIVE MEASURES AND MAINTENANCE. That's where the key lies....one has to learn to recognise issues and take note of small early signs beforehand and have a good friendly mechanic to work with, which is my case or be able to DIY. THIS is why Bm's are not for all and turn out to be nightmares.

THE NUMBERS.:
The E39 I bought 48 months old and have spent €8,000 in 12 years for ALL scheduled services, maintenance and repairs except tires. I should clarify here that although if one were to look at our cars they'd think that they are garage queens, they actually get driven hard. My daily drive home includes a 2 km section of back roads that is adequately tempting to make me drive fast almost every time, but safe as there are no pedestrians. It's a mixture of curves, uphill and snake sections....such a peach..!

The E46 has had extensive work done as well at the tune of €3,000 in the 5 years we've had it which includes rad, front and rear shocks, motor and trans. mounts, crankshaft sensors and cooling items replaced etc. 

The E36 M3 I only put about 2,000 kms on it a year and in 3 years it's only been serviced and had the odd wear and tear items replaced, rotors, pads etc.

Now at some point a f3x 3.5d will be added to the garage because I've never owned a diesel Bmw (and it's expensive europetrol that fills the gas tanks) and having tested those 3.5d's they are absolutely intoxicating and the pull low down is ridiculous.....

Now some might say, "Why would I not sell these cars before adding another car ?"
The answer is simple, these cars have provided us with so much memorable moments and have character and soul. They become members of the family and every trip is a joyous occasion, this is something that you cannot experience with a lot of other brands...some might say that you become smitten and an incurable fool.. .probably both problems are true but theyre nice problems to have.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Dio///M said:


> Those who love Bmw's do so because they want to own a vehicle that provides a exhilarating driving experience and own a car of precision engineering, forward thinking innovation built by a company that refuse to settle in the groove...
> These characteristics come at a higher cost in terms of purchase and maintenance, those who don't get this usually happen to hate Bmw's.
> Bmw's are designed by people who love to drive for people who love to drive, appreciate precision and are willing to pay for it.
> Lesser cars are designed by people who take the bus to work.


I would have to disagree, this may have been the case in the past but I doubt that the majority of owners today fall in this category. I would say majority of owners these days are either attracted by the design or the brand itself. Not to say BMW doesn't have some fantastic sports cars but these are not there volume sellers. Every 3 series is getting softer and softer with smaller engines. I don't know if you guys in Europe have gotten the 3 cylinder 3 series, because we have one in Australia, not very exhilarating and that's there core, bread and butter model. Don't even get me started on the 2 series. : puke:



Dio///M said:


> NOW TO MY EXPERIENCES.
> I've owned 6 Bmw's in 15 years and each one was always bought as a pre-owned vehicle. From a E30, E36, Z3 and a E46, E39 and E36 euro M3. The last 3 I still own and take care of meticulously and have learned to practise PREVENTATIVE MEASURES AND MAINTENANCE. That's where the key lies....one has to learn to recognise issues and take note of small early signs beforehand and have a good friendly mechanic to work with, which is my case or be able to DIY. THIS is why Bm's are not for all and turn out to be nightmares.


That's the problem, you have owned all these cars that are from BMW's glory days and there is a good reason they are so loved even till this day.



Dio///M said:


> THE NUMBERS.:
> The E39 I bought 48 months old and have spent €8,000 in 12 years for ALL scheduled services, maintenance and repairs except tires. I should clarify here that although if one were to look at our cars they'd think that they are garage queens, they actually get driven hard. My daily drive home includes a 2 km section of back roads that is adequately tempting to make me drive fast almost every time, but safe as there are no pedestrians. It's a mixture of curves, uphill and snake sections....such a peach..!
> 
> The E46 has had extensive work done as well at the tune of €3,000 in the 5 years we've had it which includes rad, front and rear shocks, motor and trans. mounts, crankshaft sensors and cooling items replaced etc.
> ...


I'm honestly glad you have had such a great experience and I'm not attacking any owners here. This thread is more about the newer cars coming out BMW with more and more issues and what seems to be less and less quality. Right from the start I said that they still drive great but it's not good enough anymore when you have a look at all the problems they are having.

I personally love my E90 but I will never buy another BMW again, because as much as I love the car, it has been ridiculously expensive to maintain (And I've DIY'd everything). Things leaking, plastic's pealing etc things that just shouldn't go wrong in 200,000 miles yet alone at 60,000 miles. I had a W203 Mercedes from the Chrysler years and even though that was Mercedes's worst period the car still held up like a tank, sold it at about 80,000 miles, replaced only consumables.

I hope your cars provide you with years of pleasurable motoring 

I don't know why some people though get so attached to car brands and will defend them tooth and nail, it's a car made by a huge corporation that couldn't give 2 craps about the owners as long as wheels are rolling of showroom floors it's a business after all. The E90 BMW series has had an immense amount of problems it really has put me of the brand for life. Every issue I had I found 100's of other forum posts with people having the exact same problems, there was not a single unique issue that I had.

Have a look at N52 lifter tick, how a class action lawsuit didn't happen there I have no idea. The fix - new cylinder head re-designed by BMW, yeah no thanks BMW and this was probably there most popular engine a BMW straight 6.


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## stonex1 (Oct 10, 2012)

aleks001 said:


> This thread is more about the newer cars coming out BMW with more and more issues and what seems to be less and less quality.


I am interested to hear more about everyone's thoughts on the definition of "reliability".

In terms of bad reliability (and assuming normal maintenance and care is performed), do you mean:

1. A car part fails within warranty period and leaves you stranded on the side of the road.
2. You have to take the car in for several small issues under warranty, but doesn't leave you stranded. (eg: the window won't roll down)
3. The vehicle works normal for about the warranty period, and then everything seems to break shortly after.
4. At any time of ownership within warranty or after, there are major components that fail which leaves you stranded on the side of the road. 
(eg: transmission failure, differential or transfer case grenading, or piston blowing through block)
5. Engine part slowly fails, (eg: slow oil gasket leak) which forces the owner to eventually deal with it. (inconvenience during warranty, PIA and money after warranty)
6. Safety features don't work properly.
7. Something else?

I would guess number 1 and 3.

I also wonder if the perception of BMW reliability is actually worse than other manufactures because it's more expensive, or do they really break down more? (compare the reliability of BMW to Benz, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti and Acura)
Or are we comparing the reliability of BMW today, vs BMW of yesterday?
Is there a ratio of purchase to breakdown?

I think it's unfair to compare a typical BMW 3 series sedan to a Honda or Toyota Sedan.
And what I mean by that is 1.8 L non turbo 132 HP engine will have parts that last way longer than a 3.0 L Turbo 300 HP engine. 
In other words, are there really more BMW's per ratio of cars sold sitting in the shop, than not compared to the rest of the world?


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

aleks001 said:


> https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit...fective-according-proposed-class-action-suit/
> 
> I wonder what BMW offered for the suit to be pulled.
> 
> ...


They got nothing.

You can't equate people suing to quality. Anyone can try and sue and try and bring about a class action. Doesn't mean anything really.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

stonex1 said:


> I am interested to hear more about everyone's thoughts on the definition of "reliability".
> 
> In terms of bad reliability (and assuming normal maintenance and care is performed), do you mean:
> 
> ...


I would say this tread is more about long term quality then Reliability. I don't think the cars are actually un-reliable, just things are breaking/leaking too early. This might not strand an owner but it costs a lot to fix these things that shouldn't be happening at such low Km's. Things like pealing plastics are also annoying as hell and seem to have started happening around the E46 era of cars.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

imtjm said:


> They got nothing.
> 
> You can't equate people suing to quality. Anyone can try and sue and try and bring about a class action. Doesn't mean anything really.


A lot of those law suits and previous ones I saw BMW actually lost them and settled, so it does mean something. I also suspect (not knowing US LAW) That for a class action law suite you need X amount of people with the same problem, but I could be wrong here.

I didn't point this law suits out as a "Hey look, here is the proof of what I'm saying" more as, here are more problems I have found people having and suing for on top of the issues I know about that are quite wide spread.

I'm curious as to how much for example "Oil consumption" and at what intervals will people tolerate.

For me personally a car should not be consuming any oil before 60,000 miles and only small amounts after and by small amounts I mean not needing a top up till the following service. I would accept a liter/quart after about 130,000 miles.

The N52, N54, N62 have a very hit an miss relationship with oil consumption most are either not using any oil and others are usually consuming about a 1 QT every 2,000 Miles give or take of 5w-30 oil. Oil either leaks or burns there is no normal usage despite what manufacturers and people like to claim. If it is burning it is getting to places it shouldn't be simple as that, doesn't mean it will create long term damage but it is definitely not right.

And lets not forget the S62 (V8 M3 engine) with the Rod Bearing issue, seriously how does this happen to a manufacturer this large and prestigious in this day and age. Would this not be engine design 101 (Must get oil to all moving parts lol)


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

aleks001 said:


> A lot of those law suits and previous ones I saw BMW actually lost them and settled, so it does mean something. I also suspect (not knowing US LAW) That for a class action law suite you need X amount of people with the same problem, but I could be wrong here.
> 
> I didn't point this law suits out as a "Hey look, here is the proof of what I'm saying" more as, here are more problems I have found people having and suing for on top of the issues I know about that are quite wide spread.
> 
> ...


well, perusing the link you sent, most of those were dismissed and dismissed with prejudice.


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## Fastpaddler (Sep 29, 2013)

Sorry about your awful accident.hope u recover fully.Perhaps when u r car hit the bog a wire may have shorted out and caused a fire,possibly in engine area.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

imtjm said:


> well, perusing the link you sent, most of those were dismissed and dismissed with prejudice.


I definetly saw a couple that have not been dismissed for example the S62 rod bearings one has been allowed to continue.

I'm also pretty sure the ones where it says "Claim has been withdrawn" is because BMW most likely settled out of court.

Some definitely though have been dismissed.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

part of the problem is the move to sophistication for the sake of making things more sophisticated. I was just reading about a guy who got a nail in his tire on his subaru at 8k miles. The tire shop says that subaru recommends getting *ALL* tires replaced so it wont upset the awd system...:loco: Who ever designed such a stupid azz system should be flogged. But this mindest exist all over the car industry.


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## Dio///M (Jul 12, 2015)

Bmw can't be "best selling premium car brand" for 10 consecutive years up to 2015 for no reason....surely you can't fool so many millions of people...just saying.
https://www.google.com.cy/amp/s/amp...ld-top-selling-carmaker-10th-consecutive-year


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

aleks001 said:


> I definetly saw a couple that have not been dismissed for example the S62 rod bearings one has been allowed to continue.
> 
> I'm also pretty sure the ones where it says "Claim has been withdrawn" is because BMW most likely settled out of court.
> 
> Some definitely though have been dismissed.


not contending that there weren't settlements; however, many/most were dismissed.


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## 3 Series (Aug 11, 2010)

Rusty34 said:


> The answer to your question is no, this is the worst car company:
> 
> 2015 FORD ESCAPE SE 4
> 
> ...


Considering the driver slid on ice into a bog covered with a sheet of ice, my money is on methane buildup under the ice, which was ignited by a short or hot spot in the vehicle. Even if the fuel tank was almost empty, it wouldn't have enough energy to dismantle the vehicle. A cabin filled with methane gas would, however. Mother Nature always has the last laugh.


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## Seppo (May 12, 2014)

I think from long observation that it is true that BMW long term quality is not in the top tier. It is probably getting worse as the number of models proliferate, the electronics become more complicated, and the BMW business model more than ever emphasizes the leasing market. Years ago Mercedes-Benz was generally engineered for durability and long-term use to a greater extent than rival BMW, which emphasized driving character and performance as core traits. We saw this as 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's Benz models stayed on the road longer than most BMWs, and retained values better. A friend who works dealer auctions always pointed out how Benz retained values exceeded BMW, as did the condition of individual cars passing through one of the largest high-end dealer auction houses.

Benz started slipping in the early Nineties as the Reuter and Schrempp regimes ran the business off track, and Lexus appeared as an upstart competitor with great value and reliability and dealer service as their only strengths. BMW hung in there, twenty years ago Audi tended to have more problems especially as the cars aged when compared to BMW. That has changed as Audi now has greatly improved durability and number of faults, while BMW has not improved and has backslid a bit.

Face it, an independent BMW trying to now engineer a slew of models besides a core 3/5/7 sedan line plus a few coupes, electric vehicles, multiple infotainment and electronic control systems, simply cannot also focus on designing for efficient production and simple maintenance. Given their leasing-heavy business model, why would they? Leases restrict most drivers to around 15k miles annually, the cars just have to hang together to make it through the warranty period, then the dealer body incentivizes the customer to turn it in for a new model on a new lease.

While I liked driving the BMWs I have owned and borrowed, and always took great pains to do routine and preventive maintenance, there were always things going wrong. Some quite minor like non-essential LCD screens failing, others like axle and drivetrain problems, check engine lights, oil leaks, coolant leaks, and diesel-specific problems on my 328d. A relative has had multiple disasters with each of four V8's, two 7's and two 5's, ranging from coolant in the oil, massive oil leaks, warped cylinder heads, and crankshaft failures - this on cars that were rigorously serviced and regularly driven on highway miles as well as local driving that always resulted in full-warmed up engines.

Other makes now approach BMW's driving character more closely than they once did, and some of those seem to have fewer problems, even as BMWs have become less sporty overall. The make still has its charms that appeal to many, who may be willing to roll over from one leased/warrantied BMW to another, but the buy and hold buyer should beware, and carefully consider the competitive offerings.


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## Dio///M (Jul 12, 2015)

BMWs, though, are much more reliable than some would let you believe. The thing with BMW, and any premium car for that matter, is that they require maintenance. If you want to own a BMW you’re going to have to take care of it as if it were a child. They require oil changes done at the right time, using the correct oil and not knock off brands from Walmart. If you maintain your BMW it will last forever. At least the engine will.
But that comes with owning something that’s been built to meticulous standards, it needs meticulous taking care of.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

From Consumers Reports: _ "Consistency is key. Consumer Reports' annual analysis reveals that some brands exhibit high-level performance across their lines. Many others do not. In our 2017 analysis of which car brands make the best vehicles, Audi takes the top position for the second year in a row, followed by Porsche, BMW, Lexus, and Subaru. Although these are the same top five as last year, Porsche and BMW rose, and Lexus and Subaru moved down."_


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## Nulevel (Sep 3, 2015)

aleks001 said:


> if you are paying a premium price you would expect premium quality.





Dio///M said:


> The thing with BMW, and any premium car for that matter, is that they require maintenance. If you want to own a BMW you're going to have to take care of it as if it were a child. They require oil changes done at the right time, using the correct oil and not knock off brands from Walmart. If you maintain your BMW it will last forever. At least the engine will.
> But that comes with owning something that's been built to meticulous standards, it needs meticulous taking care of.


I'm convinced that there is a fair amount of risk/reward that goes along with owning every BMW. They're not for people living paycheck to paycheck. They're expensive to buy, maintain, and repair.

An expensive item doesn't guarantee "premium quality." Because there really are no guarantees in this life.

All comes down to desire and choice.

I expect 4 things from BMW (wife and I have owned 4 so far):

1. Tops in engine performance and handling.
2. Near-tops in "social aura" (Google Bob Lutz), i.e. "status." 
3. Expensive warranty or expensive repairs and maintenance. 
4. Sub-par post-sales (i.e. shiatty service at the dealership).

For me personally: 1 and 2 trump 3 and 4.


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## crabu2 (Mar 14, 2017)

stonex1 said:


> I am interested to hear more about everyone's thoughts on the definition of "reliability".


Reliability for me is just doing filter, fluid and wear parts (brakes, tires, wiper blades) changes for the 1st 100K miles. 
From 100K to 150K, plugs, belts, and maybe oxygen sensors, in addition to the maintenance and wear items as before.
150K to 200K is maintenance/wear items and shocks and struts, bushings... bigger things that wear over time.
200K+ is when things start breaking like window motors, but still not leaving you stranded.
250+ all bets are off....

BTW, the above experience is what I've had with Ford, Dodge, Ram, Jeep, Toyota and Honda. And 1 of the 3 Fords I've had needed a window motor and it had over 200K miles at the time. I had a GM car which was a lemon.. had all kinds of problems for the 1st 10K miles, but once those issues were taken care of, it had one problem that happened liked clock work. a radiator by pass hose would spring a leak every 12 to 15K miles. Was lucky that it was easy to get at and could do it on the side of the road in 15 mins or less.


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

I have been a BMW owner since 2002, My cars are as follows:

1) 1999 323
2) 2009 535
3) 2012 650
4) 2015 M4 

All I've had to do with all my cars is mainly oil changes thats about it, they all have been 
problem free. The pleasure I get driving BMW's compared to Toyota and Honda far out ways 
the cost of maintenance and repair. Not to mention how much safer my family and I feel 
compared to Toyota and Honda and all the rest.


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## X5-F15-Bimmer (Apr 21, 2017)

I have had 6 BMW's 318i. 320i. 325ci, M3, X5 e53 that i drove across Australia 6 times without a problem, Now have a X5 F15 that has 1 trip across Australia under it's belt without any Problems, All i had to do is the Service when due and replace tyres, I love the comfort and safety in these cars,


Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest


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## Folgen Sie Mir (Jan 5, 2014)

Elias said:


> I have been a BMW owner since 2002, My cars are as follows:
> 
> 1) 1999 323
> 2) 2009 535
> ...


+1 safety

In 2010 my wife & daughter were involved in a very bad wreck. I wish she had been driving my bimmer instead of the Jeep. I bet their injuries would have been less severe. She drives the 5'er now, but not hoping to test it against a semi anytime soon.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## Dio///M (Jul 12, 2015)

....Which reminds me, in the late 80's I was traveling as a passenger in a E32 730i on a highway in South Africa at 180kmh when the front left tire suddenly exploded....
....the only thing we felt was a good lean of the beast towards the left and the driver just held the steering wheel steady and let the car slow down naturally rather than stamp on the brakes and we came to a controlled stop on the side of the road with no loss of the car or putting other cars in danger..

If this had occured in a lesser car, like a Jap sedan, I'm certain our experience would have been very different...
The 7 performed outstandingly in a dangerous situation and as a result of meticulous German engineering standards it protected its occupants to live and enjoy at least another half a dozen Bm's since then....


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

X5-F15-Bimmer said:


> I have had 6 BMW's 318i. 320i. 325ci, M3, X5 e53 that i drove across Australia 6 times without a problem, Now have a X5 F15 that has 1 trip across Australia under it's belt without any Problems, All i had to do is the Service when due and replace tyres, I love the comfort and safety in these cars,
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest


How many kilometers did your cars have on average when you replaced them and when you undertook these trips ?


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Dio///M said:


> BMWs, though, are much more reliable than some would let you believe. The thing with BMW, and any premium car for that matter, is that they require maintenance. If you want to own a BMW you're going to have to take care of it as if it were a child. They require oil changes done at the right time, using the correct oil and not knock off brands from Walmart. If you maintain your BMW it will last forever. At least the engine will.
> But that comes with owning something that's been built to meticulous standards, it needs meticulous taking care of.


Anything will last forever if you maintain it and keep throwing money at it. The problem I find with BMW is the milege at which things start going wrong. Especially things like oil leaks and oil burning.


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## aleks001 (Nov 14, 2011)

Seppo said:


> I think from long observation that it is true that BMW long term quality is not in the top tier. It is probably getting worse as the number of models proliferate, the electronics become more complicated, and the BMW business model more than ever emphasizes the leasing market. Years ago Mercedes-Benz was generally engineered for durability and long-term use to a greater extent than rival BMW, which emphasized driving character and performance as core traits. We saw this as 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's Benz models stayed on the road longer than most BMWs, and retained values better. A friend who works dealer auctions always pointed out how Benz retained values exceeded BMW, as did the condition of individual cars passing through one of the largest high-end dealer auction houses.
> 
> Benz started slipping in the early Nineties as the Reuter and Schrempp regimes ran the business off track, and Lexus appeared as an upstart competitor with great value and reliability and dealer service as their only strengths. BMW hung in there, twenty years ago Audi tended to have more problems especially as the cars aged when compared to BMW. That has changed as Audi now has greatly improved durability and number of faults, while BMW has not improved and has backslid a bit.
> 
> ...


I think this thread can end here. This is about the most accurate summary I have seen of what I believe the problem is. Well written sir


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