# What's a polite way to enter "negotiation" on price?



## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

I'm going to look at this CPO car soon, and I have the approximate numbers in my head of what the car is worth, from trade-in value to CPO retail. Also have an idea of what my current car's trade-in is worth as well, so I have a good idea of where I'd like to end up. I personally think the price could come down another $1k-$2k at least. This particular car was a trade-in from this dealer's own customer, not a lease return bought from BMWNA.

I don't want to seem rude, but I also tend to be an ineffective pushover. After I've looked at the car and decided I want to pursue it, what's an effective way of saying "I want to buy this car but I need to see if you can work on the price"?


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## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

don't ever say that!!! you give them the numbers you want - minus $$. then they can accept or counter.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Maxwagen said:


> I'm going to look at this CPO car soon, and I have the approximate numbers in my head of what the car is worth, from trade-in value to CPO retail. Also have an idea of what my current car's trade-in is worth as well, so I have a good idea of where I'd like to end up. I personally think the price could come down another $1k-$2k at least. This particular car was a trade-in from this dealer's own customer, not a lease return bought from BMWNA.
> 
> I don't want to seem rude, but I also tend to be an ineffective pushover. After I've looked at the car and decided I want to pursue it, what's an effective way of saying "I want to buy this car but I need to see if you can work on the price"?


It isn't rude to let the dealer know what price you are willing to pay for a car.
Something along the lines of, " I like this car but all I can/will pay for it is xxxxx" Be prepared to walk if they say no.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Gotcha- but I would imagine I would want to start out a bit lower than where I intend to end up, in case they counter, right? Or is it just more efficient to go out with the number you want, and not accept any counters?


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## Tirpitz (Sep 10, 2012)

Maxwagen said:


> Gotcha- but I would imagine I would want to start out a bit lower than where I intend to end up, in case they counter, right? Or is it just more efficient to go out with the number you want, and not accept any counters?


Either can work. Time is money though and you might not want to spend the time grinding them down for the last nickel possible.

However say $30K is your walk away point. So you say, "I don't want to pay more than $30K". Salesman does a happy dance and says no problem, sold at $30K. Will you feel like you just left money on the table? Perhaps they were willing to do to $25K to move that car?


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## Ty Vil (Dec 19, 2002)

The consumer who has a number in mind and doesn't play games is one of my favorites. Pick your number and present it up front. Also, setup an appointment in advance with a salesperson you've been recommended or has great reviews online as opposed to just walking in.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Tirpitz said:


> Either can work. Time is money though and you might not want to spend the time grinding them down for the last nickel possible.
> 
> However say $30K is your walk away point. So you say, "I don't want to pay more than $30K". Salesman does a happy dance and says no problem, sold at $30K. Will you feel like you just left money on the table? Perhaps they were willing to do to $25K to move that car?


This all depends on what the customer wants to get out of the negotiation. You can get a lower price sometimes if you "grind down", but that requires some back and forth.

If you know what you want to pay, figure out what you would "LIKE" to pay (so if your walk away number is 30k maybe shoot for 29k as your starting number. Alternatively, what generally works is having your number and stating it, and stressing you are ready to buy RIGHT NOW if they can meet your number.

I personally prefer that method but it is possible to leave money on the table using it.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Don't go on a weekend - they will be busy. I like Mondays and Tuesdays best. A long time until their potential next sale, so they may be more willing to deal.

They will likely lowball your trade it. So have a backup plan to sell it yourself or to CarMax if an option - and just buy the CPO separately.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Here are my tips from the CA side:


If you want to work with an experienced CA, do as Ty suggested and research the review sites for a name that comes up. Or call the sales receptionist and ask from whom would s/he get a car. Or call for a sales manager and have them set you up with a good CA. Anything is better than just walking in cold.
If you want to meet with that specific CA, don't set up an appointment for a Saturday. The best CAs have appts set up but get a lot of repeat and referral clients on weekend.
If you have to go on a weekend, set it up for the first hour of their day. You will get our attention, and we see it is a chance to "get one under the belt" early. 
Pick a weekday as early in the week as possible; you don't want that car to hit the following weekend when the next waive of walk-in buyers come in.
Trade values: if you don't want to be disappointed about the "low-balling" of a trade in value, do some homework up front. Don't just walk in with KBB Excellent value and think that the dealer will match that after you've asked for a big discount off the price. Look at Good Value, and use three sources so you can see what we see. And also check to see what your car is retailing for. Example: a 95k mile Acura TL in good condition has an average trade value of $11.8 or so. But retail list is $14.9 a Franchise dealer can't give you $12k for a high-mileage off-brand trade and try to sell it for $15 and make much money doing so. These are the data points we consider.
Same with price: use multiple researchers and look up average trade-in value so you have a sense of what we might have in the car. If it's a CPO car, plan to add $1500-$2500 to the average trade value for Certification and the warranty.
If it's the car you want, tell your CA that other than the final numbers, there is no reason why you won't drive home in the car today. If they haven't asked YOU that question, they aren't quite as good as their reputation!
Feel free to start out lower on the price and higher on the trade if you see fit. But, don't be upset about having some back and forth. That's OK, it is called a negotiation for a reason.
Don't say you will "walk." Just like you don't believe you got our best price, we don't always believe you really want to leave your targeted car behind. If after at least 2 full attempts at the numbers you haven't got it done, just ask to speak with the sales manager. If you're there on a weekday, they should have time to meet with you.
Finally, ask yourself honestly how much deviation from your numbers are you willing to accept. If they're not to that point after 2-3 attempts, offer your bottom and see what happens. Then walk if they can't do it. Because it's your pain point.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> I'm going to look at this CPO car soon, and I have the approximate numbers in my head of what the car is worth, from trade-in value to CPO retail. Also have an idea of what my current car's trade-in is worth as well, so I have a good idea of where I'd like to end up. I personally think the price could come down another $1k-$2k at least. This particular car was a trade-in from this dealer's own customer, not a lease return bought from BMWNA.
> 
> I don't want to seem rude, but I also tend to be an ineffective pushover. After I've looked at the car and decided I want to pursue it, what's an effective way of saying "I want to buy this car but I need to see if you can work on the price"?


Get your mind in the best place to politely not worry about being rude to the dealer.

It's all about having your ducks in a row and clarity regarding the numbers, and then keeping a close eye on all the moving parts of a deal. Good luck.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

chrischeung said:


> Don't go on a weekend - they will be busy. I like Mondays and Tuesdays best. A long time until their potential next sale, so they may be more willing to deal.
> 
> They will likely lowball your trade it. So have a backup plan to sell it yourself or to CarMax if an option - and just buy the CPO separately.


But take into account applicable sales tax credits you might receive. For an example in Washington, that private party or CarMax sale has to be 10% higher than the dealer trade in value to be better than just trading it in and getting the sales tax credit on the new car.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

This is all great info guys, very helpful. 

As for my tradein, I'm not opposed to selling privately if I have to. This CPO is cheap enough that I don't need the tradein to make the deal work, I can deal with them seperately. My trade-in is not too old, it's a 2013 Focus ST. It's in excellent shape mechanically, other than one badly rashed wheel, one small paint scuff in the front, and absolutely needs tires. I'm assuming the dealer will try and lowball me over the tires alone. Is it fair to ask them how much they're dinging me for needing to put a new set of new tires on the car? I know what it costs to have an inexpensive set of tires put on a car (retail price anyways) and I'm not willing to let them have too much over it. 

On a related note, back when I was pricing out new builds (before I decided it was unaffordable to me) I did have another dealer offer me a fair trade in value (sight-unseen). Wasn't lowball, $14k on a car worth probably $17k. Even though at the time they were assuming the tradein was for a new car purchase, is it fair to use that as a benchmark?


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

MJBrown62 said:


> But take into account applicable sales tax credits you might receive. For an example in Washington, that private party or CarMax sale has to be 10% higher than the dealer trade in value to be better than just trading it in and getting the sales tax credit on the new car.


I'm in CT, and I'm not sure we have any sort of sales tax credit on cars at all (except possibly some alternative fuels, not sure). What exactly is that in Washington?


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> On a related note, back when I was pricing out new builds (before I decided it was unaffordable to me) I did have another dealer offer me a fair trade in value (sight-unseen). Wasn't lowball, $14k on a car worth probably $17k. Even though at the time they were assuming the tradein was for a new car purchase, is it fair to use that as a benchmark?


Trades are tough these days -- the used market is dynamic and changes weekly. I always assume the dealer needs a couple of thousand margin just for rehab if he keeps a trade. If he resells it or sends it to acuction, he has no clue what it will actually fetch, so he's got to go low.

My view has been that I don't want my email or cell phone out there, I don't want to wait for no-shows to meet me somewhere, I don't want prospective buyers coming to my house, I don't want to go on test drives with carjackers.... The dealer earns his money when he takes my trade and I'm happy for him to do it.

As mentioned earlier, CarMax takes about an hour and they have a fair read on the market -- their quote is usually solid wholesale.

Whether you are selling or buying, a fair price is what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will take.

When I go to buy a car, my attitude is that I'm giving the dealer an opportunity to sell me a car. I get to choose how much I'm willing to pay. The dealer gets to choose if he is willing to meet my terms. If he doesn't, I can pay more or move on.

And I'm always polite and make an appointment and respect the salesperson's time and tell them I am looking forward to giving all 10's on the survey when the deal is satisfactorily concluded. And I honor my word and give the 10's. And if I can't give a 10, I give the dealer the opportunity to earn the 10 so I can give it.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Quick trade story on my most recent deal. The Sales Manager told me over the phone to take my trade to a dealer who carries the line. He said his lot is for BMW's and MINI's and he couldn't offer me as much for my trade as the Range Rover dealer would. I made an appointment with the GSM at the Range Rover dealer -- he gave me an excellent price, had the direct computer link to unwind my lease-end with the Range Rover captive lender, and had me out in less than half an hour for $2,000 more than CarMax offered.

The lesson I learned is that being straight up with sales professionals at reputable high line dealers saves time and maintains everyone's dignity and, in my experience, usually results in better and more satisfactory deals.

The magic often happens when a customer says, "I'm prepared to by this car for $X today. I need $Y for my trade and I need (whatever else you want). What can I do to help you make this happen for us today?" Start reasonable but low on your offer and reasonable on your trade demands and watch the magic unfold.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

I'll keep this in mind, thanks!


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> I'll keep this in mind, thanks!


Dealers have a 6th sense -- they know when they've got a buyer vs. a shopper. If you decide, after doing your homework, that you're a buyer and that is the car, then receptivity to a low but reasonable offer increases on the dealer's side. What "low" and "reasonable" are will be determined by your diligent research.

Best of luck.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

Maxwagen said:


> I'm in CT, and I'm not sure we have any sort of sales tax credit on cars at all (except possibly some alternative fuels, not sure). What exactly is that in Washington?


If you own the current car (not leasing), when you trade it in it will be used as an offset against the sales tax owed on the new car. So for example, if they are giving you $10K for the car, and your new car is costing $40K, instead of paying the sales tax on $40K you will only be paying it on $30K, which would save you $635 (assuming CT's sales tax rate is still 6.35%).

If you are leasing the new car, then you will get a credit towards the monthly use tax payment on the lease.

Note - this was the case when I lived in CT...be sure to check that tax policy hasn't changed since 2014.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Dealers have a 6th sense -- they know when they've got a buyer vs. a shopper. ...


No, we don't. No such thing. I don't know how many conversations in 13 years of doing this that guys and gals say, "I knew I had a buyer" about people they sell, or "I knew they were just shopping around." They end up finding out that we a) has the only 340xi in Estoril Blue and Coral Red interior with Tech, or they went down the road and they just wanted a nice used 328 and you wanted to sell them the one with the most gross that wasn't what they want.

It's a ludicrous belief, and also involves an unhealthy dose of pre-qualification from CAs that their managers hate.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

MJBrown62 said:


> No, we don't. No such thing.


Look... I know you are required to say this. BMWNA rules require that your superpowers be kept secret... So we can all just go along with the "story".

But we all know the truth.

:angel:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> No, we don't. No such thing. I don't know how many conversations in 13 years of doing this that guys and gals say, "I knew I had a buyer" about people they sell, or "I knew they were just shopping around." They end up finding out that we a) has the only 340xi in Estoril Blue and Coral Red interior with Tech, or they went down the road and they just wanted a nice used 328 and you wanted to sell them the one with the most gross that wasn't what they want.
> 
> It's a ludicrous belief, and also involves an unhealthy dose of pre-qualification from CAs that their managers hate.


Okay, Superpowers aside (which we know you have), I will modify my comment to say that, WHEN A BUYER CLEARLY COMMUNICATES a willingness to buy a specific car for specified terms, many salespeople have an intuitive sense about the pending deal. Customer behavior can, and does, influence the sales process.

All kidding aside, I do think the more clearly customers communicate, the more likely a good, fair deal can come together quickly. I think there are ways customers can align their interests with those of the CA and the desk, and, whether a 6th sense is involved or not, the signals sent from customer to salesperson can, and do, make a difference.

All deals happen within the context of a relationship. The dealer may be using word tracks and soft closes and qualifying questions, and steps to the sale to manage that relationship. Nothing in the rules to prevent a customer from using relationship skills, courtesy, and clarity, to send the right signals to the salesperson's... 6th sense.

The salesperson's senses may be deceiving them due to either wishful 'I know he's a buyer' thinking or 'every buyer is a liar' skepticism from years of being stroked by funky customers, but my experience has been that when the salesperson gets the feeling I'm ready to pull the trigger if my terms can be met, the conversation changes and the focus moves toward getting the deal rather than qualifying and trial closing me. And I have been impressed at how hard salespeople will work to get me the skinny deals I have asked for over the years -- after they figure out I'm a buyer, using their magical 6th sense that they don't have, but do.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

I think I've asked the OP like 3 times. "Why are you only shopping for a CPO?"

If the answer is "I have a trade; I want CPO financing; I think a "CPO" is a special car; I don't feel comfortable buying from the public"...all these will cost you $3000-5000. You can, of course, buy a used BMW and add a BMW warranty to get the same end result.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

ard said:


> I think I've asked the OP like 3 times. "Why are you only shopping for a CPO?"
> 
> If the answer is "I have a trade; I want CPO financing; I think a "CPO" is a special car; I don't feel comfortable buying from the public"...all these will cost you $3000-5000. You can, of course, buy a used BMW and add a BMW warranty to get the same end result.


I've answered this before (in another thread). I understand that CPO commands a premium, and I'm interested in getting that premium down to what I feel is an acceptable level.

My answer is, that do a search for BMW 328i wagons with m-sport package that are around $35,000 (so basically 2014's, since anything newer is too expensive and there aren't any 2015's:

- Use a search radius that doesn't involve any sort of undue travel (just too lazy, but that's my problem).

- Now reduce that search to my color choices which are are grey, silver, estoril blue, or red, and either beige, black or brown interior.

- Now tell me how many you find that are being privately sold.

And yes, this is my first BMW so maybe I'm slightly skittish of cost and reliability. But I've wanted 1. a BMW and 2. a wagon (combine the two, yay!) since I could drive a car. So, once I buy my first one, there is a distinct possibility that I will be sticking with this brand for the rest of my life, so it would behoove me to ensure I have a good ownership experience the first time around.

There is your answer.


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## Dr. F (Apr 29, 2017)

The most polite way to negotiate is to do your homework and present an offer based on actual math:

1) Establish the car's market value, or your top dollar
2) Discover any applicable purchase incentives
3) Determine financing options & rates, or money factor (dealer or private) 
4) Prepare a worksheet to calculate the best price/payment using the above factors, tax, and the residual if a lease 
5) Create a worksheet to calculate the best outcome
6) If satisfied with the worksheet, present it to dealer and tell them here is what I'd like to pay given the math I understand to be true


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> I've answered this before (in another thread). I understand that CPO commands a premium, and I'm interested in getting that premium down to what I feel is an acceptable level.
> 
> My answer is, that do a search for BMW 328i wagons with m-sport package that are around $35,000 (so basically 2014's, since anything newer is too expensive and there aren't any 2015's:
> 
> ...


Welcome to BMW World. I hope you get connected with the right car at the right terms and that the result is the satisfying ownership experience you are seeking.

What many seasoned Festers have learned over the years is that there are times when acquiring a new BMW works out as well or better than buying used. Also, the CPO thing can be very useful if the dealer plays by the rules and if the technician doing the CPO evaluation really treats the car as if his own sister was going to be the next owner -- but this doesn't always happen and what the buyer sometimes gets is a piece of paper entitling him to go get limited warranty service from the dealer.

So, educate yourself about CPO and, armed with knowledge, make sure the dealer has done the right thing through the certification process.

When you go for the test drive, DO NOT let the salesperson start showing you the radio and the nav -- concentrate on how the car drives and feels and sounds -- no rattles or squeaks or strange thunks from the drive train or suspension -- no pulling or binding of the brakes. The car should track arrow straight.

Tell the salesperson that, if you have any questions, you'll ask but that you prefer to concentrate on driving the car -- conversation can happen after the test drive is done.

As for the deal itself -- look around the various current threads to learn what sorts of deals people are snagging. Know the numbers cold. If you want the car, tell the dealer what you're prepared to say "yes" to, and, if your numbers make sense, it should fall into place.

Yes, it's satisfying to drive a good deal. But, in the end, it's the CAR you're driving, so you need to be satisfied that you have purchased the car you want, hopefully on favorable terms.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

I'm not trying to sound like I know everything because I absolutely don't - but I've been down the new vs. used road already and waffled back and forth to the point of obsession. I've spent hours and hours pouring over the incentives, payments, leases, financing, etc. etc. for a new car vs. CPO/Used. And I've been looking at new and used 3er wagons for two months at least. It's difficult to get a baseline on a car that is sold so rarely, with this particular packaging.

At this point, with the car/features I want and the incentives that are available (or I should say have dissapeared - would have worked out better if I rushed and sprung on something back in March) my payments would be higher, even on a lease. Realizing what you can afford is also important- and this is a long term thing for me, not just a "own for three years and dump it" so all things considered, it's spending $35k @0.9% vs. $55k @~3%. In the end, it's still $20k less and that buys a looooot of things, including repairs.

This particular car was bought and serviced through this dealer, and in fact was bought and traded in to the same CA that is showing it to me. So knowing that, I will be asking for the dealership service records, and I AM telling them that the sale is contingent on 1. my wife seeing it (I mean, duh) and 2. me taking it to a qualified BMW indy to check it out. If they don't let me accomplish that, then sorry- no deal.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> I'm not trying to sound like I know everything because I absolutely don't - but I've been down the new vs. used road already and waffled back and forth to the point of obsession. I've spent hours and hours pouring over the incentives, payments, leases, financing, etc. etc. for a new car vs. CPO/Used. And I've been looking at new and used 3er wagons for two months at least. It's difficult to get a baseline on a car that is sold so rarely, with this particular packaging.
> 
> At this point, with the car/features I want and the incentives that are available (or I should say have dissapeared - would have worked out better if I rushed and sprung on something back in March) my payments would be higher, even on a lease. Realizing what you can afford is also important- and this is a long term thing for me, not just a "own for three years and dump it" so all things considered, it's spending $35k @0.9% vs. $55k @~3%. In the end, it's still $20k less and that buys a looooot of things, including repairs.
> 
> This particular car was bought and serviced through this dealer, and in fact was bought and traded in to the same CA that is showing it to me. So knowing that, I will be asking for the dealership service records, and I AM telling them that the sale is contingent on 1. my wife seeing it (I mean, duh) and 2. me taking it to a qualified BMW indy to check it out. If they don't let me accomplish that, then sorry- no deal.


Sounds like you've got your mind right. My wife has always been my secret weapon on car deals -- she always gets more out of the deal just by putting her hand on her hip and pouting.

Looks like you're on your way to the right deal. Go get it!


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Funny, so now the CA is telling me there is a "lot of activity on this car" and is trying to get me to come in before 10 am. It's a possibility, considering the rarity of this model combined with this color. (Red m-sport wagon) I guess now we'll get to see how the cards fall and how willing they are to let me take the car for a day or two, and strike a deal on it. 

Such a game. :rofl:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> Funny, so now the CA is telling me there is a "lot of activity on this car" and is trying to get me to come in before 10 am. It's a possibility, considering the rarity of this model combined with this color. (Red m-sport wagon) I guess now we'll get to see how the cards fall and how willing they are to let me take the car for a day or two, and strike a deal on it.
> 
> Such a game. :rofl:


Your original question was regarding a polite way to enter negotiation on price.

IMHO you are already deep into the negotiation.

Possibility A is your CA is being honest and he doesn't want to lose the sale and he wants you to get the car.

Possibility B is your CA's manager told him to call you and get you in.

Either way, I am reminded of a call I received from a sales manager. I had looked at and driven a hard-to-find used car I really wanted, but they were asking too much.

I told him I would be delighted to return to his dealership to purchase the car and then I told him my terms. He said he would do it if I came in that day.

I carefully restated the terms of the deal. He confirmed he would do it. I showed up two hours later and bought the car as agreed.

Point being, if you agree to go back to the dealer, and you want the car, call your CA and tell your CA your terms and confirm that if the car turns out to be what they claim it is, and your independent inspector agrees, you are prepared to do whatever your deal terms are, _today._ If he says "yes," then you have a deal if you want it.

But if you don't make your terms clear before you walk back into the dealer, you've made more work for yourself.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Well the only reason I haven't gone down there is that I've actually been waiting for the dealer to make the car ready to see. Very confusing, and makes the whole story feel a little bit like "Possibility B". Bear with me:

- Car went on sale, and I called about it immediately (yeah I know, rookie mistake)
- CA tells me that the car is in the shop (presumably being CPO'd) they will call me with a time, the next day.
- Next day comes, and they call and say the car is fine and ready, but the manager took the car on vacation (or the manager was ON vacation, I wasn't clear on that). Very strange either way. CA says the car will be available the next week.
- The next week rolls around (this is last week) and I don't hear from the CA.
- Meanwhile I'm contact by another CA at the dealership (one whom I actually like better in fact) and so I respond to him saying that I still want to look at this CPO car.
- We play phone tag a couple times, and finally connect and I had a slot to go down and see it today.
- He calls back 5 minutes later, says the car is being detailed in their detail shop downtown.
- (At this point I'm being very patient) CA says I can come tomorrow, so I said OK fine.
- Now he is telling me I better hurry up and come earlier in the morning as there is "lots of activity in the marketplace for this car".

So.... it's wait, wait, wait, - now hurry up? So puzzled, and I'm starting to think the waiting was indeed bull**** to see how much activity they could generate on the car before I actually came in and made an offer. But I'm losing my patience over this car that I've been waiting three weeks now to even take a look at, so I'm not interested in screwing around with offers any more. I'm going to put some good numbers down and see if they take it, and if not.... oh well. It's just a damn car- I've been researching since early March, I can wait as long as it takes.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> Well the only reason I haven't gone down there is that I've actually been waiting for the dealer to make the car ready to see. Very confusing, and makes the whole story feel a little bit like "Possibility B". Bear with me:
> 
> - Car went on sale, and I called about it immediately (yeah I know, rookie mistake)
> - CA tells me that the car is in the shop (presumably being CPO'd) they will call me with a time, the next day.
> ...


For whatever crazy reasons on their end, you are in the _perfect negotiating position.

You're in no hurry to buy. They've played games. You have yet to see the car. If you like it at the right numbers, you win. If you don't like it at any numbers, you win. If you like it and they are firm on numbers you think are too high, you can tell them they have a deal at the numbers you like, otherwise you're no longer interested. Or you can let them push your numbers up if you love the car that much.

All scenarios give the advantage to you. Don't relinquish your advantage and, as you said before, the cards will fall... play your hand well. A wise buyer has all the time in the world and never needs the deal. Whereas, the dealer needs every deal -- they just don't want customers to know this._


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## RonBurgundy (Feb 18, 2016)

Out of curiosity, did you happen to reach out to Greg @ Pacific about the loaded Estoril/Saddle 2016 factory demo car? IIRC it was right around $40k mark and he could have likely done better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

RonBurgundy said:


> Out of curiosity, did you happen to reach out to Greg @ Pacific about the loaded Estoril/Saddle 2016 factory demo car? IIRC it was right around $40k mark and he could have likely done better.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


I did, spoke to him on the phone twice, and unfortunately he never got around to calling me back on either occasion. Not sure it was meant to be anyway, because that car was $45k ($10k more than I ideally want to spend), and was a stinking deal, but even at 40k, I'd still be pushing my budget limit pretty hard, and would still have to pay for shipping and selling my current car for a good price to cover what I'd need to put down. That car is gone now anyway.

That was my absolute dream car- but gotta pay to play, and know your limits. ;-)


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

The only thing that doesn't sound out of the norm is the whole manager on vacation thing. Wasn't this on another thread??

Just hang in there. If they are suggesting you get in tomorrow morning, why not? If you're available, of course.

I've dealt with this scenario quite a few times in 11 years. 
Car gets put up online, so I get inquiries
Car has just been priced online, but hasn't completed the CPO work
CPO service adviser says it's all set, but doesn't tell me it hasn't been detailed, or is off to the body shop for a corner scrub repair. So not really all set.
The other CAs are getting leads. Now we're all fighting for this car we probably haven't seen yet.​
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. get in there as soon as you're reasonably assured it's available. Then go through your process.

The good news is that it hasn't been sold yet!

Have you got all your research done?



Maxwagen said:


> Well the only reason I haven't gone down there is that I've actually been waiting for the dealer to make the car ready to see. Very confusing, and makes the whole story feel a little bit like "Possibility B". Bear with me:
> 
> - Car went on sale, and I called about it immediately (yeah I know, rookie mistake)
> - CA tells me that the car is in the shop (presumably being CPO'd) they will call me with a time, the next day.
> ...


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Totally. I'm going to go in the morning so long as he gets back to me, but if not then I gotta get to work and I'll go later in the day. Chances of it selling on a wednesday between 8am and lunch time are slim, I think.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Oh and yes, this was on another, impulsive, thread that I had started about dealer weirdness.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> Oh and yes, this was on another, impulsive, thread that I had started about dealer weirdness.


:thumbup: Thought it was unusual two have two people with that same weird scenario.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> :thumbup: Thought it was unusual two have two people with that same weird scenario.


Did I tell ya about the time I bought a demo that a dealership guy had just been assigned? Rare car. They didn't want to sell it. I said to the SM, "The salesman says the car over there isn't for sale. My understanding is this entire dealership is for sale. It's just a matter of price and terms." To which the SM smiled and replied, "You're absolutely right. Let's go nail this down for you." A fist fight broke out between the guy who thought it was his demo and the salesman who got my deal. Weird Scenarios in the world of car deals.....


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Did I tell ya about the time I bought a demo that a dealership guy had just been assigned? Rare car. They didn't want to sell it. I said to the SM, "The salesman says the car over there isn't for sale. My understanding is this entire dealership is for sale. It's just a matter of price and terms." To which the SM smiled and replied, "You're absolutely right. Let's go nail this down for you." A fist fight broke out between the guy who thought it was his demo and the salesman who got my deal. Weird Scenarios in the world of car deals.....


I just wanted to say that, reading your posts, you absolutely sound like someone I could have a beer with.

:thumbup:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Did I tell ya about the time I bought a demo that a dealership guy had just been assigned? Rare car. They didn't want to sell it. I said to the SM, "The salesman says the car over there isn't for sale. My understanding is this entire dealership is for sale. *It's just a matter of price and terms.*" To which the SM smiled and replied, "You're absolutely right. Let's go nail this down for you." A fist fight broke out between the guy who thought it was his demo and the salesman who got my deal. Weird Scenarios in the world of car deals.....


My past experience is that GM/GSM has much better grasp of reality than CAs/SMs.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

namelessman said:


> My past experience is that GM/GSM has much better grasp of reality than CAs/SMs.


That's what I'm getting simply reading threads in this forum...

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Maxwagen said:


> I've answered this before (in another thread). I understand that CPO commands a premium, and I'm interested in getting that premium down to what I feel is an acceptable level.
> 
> My answer is, that do a search for BMW 328i wagons with m-sport package that are around $35,000 (so basically 2014's, since anything newer is too expensive and there aren't any 2015's:
> 
> ...


Technically this is not an answer as to why you are only looking at CPOs.

"I'm scared and a CPO seems like less risk" seems the answer. CPO 'command' a premium as they are designed to appeal to the fear in some buyers- with a veneer of 'BMW stands behind this, like a new car'. There is nothing in a CPO that cannot be purchased privately. And BMW doesn't stand behind them.

As others have pointed out- here and throughout Bimmerfest- a CPO is not any kind of guarantee of a good ownership experience. A well shopped private party with a PPI and a BMW warranty gets you the same for $4k less.

Hey, hope you get this one deal done at a reasonable number.... As most here know, it can be a stress. But if it blows up, maybe broaden your scope...remember, someone sold that car you are looking at to the dealer for, what, 8k under their asking?

GL


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Even a lot of the privately sold listings that I can find (albeit in colors that I don't want) have asking prices equal to what is available as CPO. So I think there is a bit of a supply and demand thing here with the m-sport wagons, in the Northeast where the x-drive wagons are going to be more popular than other areas. Out of 16 CPO wagons (only 4 of which are m-sports) avaiable within a 100 miles radius, this one is the 7th from the bottom in terms of price, and the cheapest m-sport around.


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Maxwagen said:


> Even a lot of the privately sold listings that I can find (albeit in colors that I don't want) have asking prices equal to what is available as CPO. So I think there is a bit of a supply and demand thing here with the m-sport wagons, in the Northeast where the x-drive wagons are going to be more popular than other areas. Out of 16 CPO wagons (only 4 of which are m-sports) avaiable within a 100 miles radius, this one is the 7th from the bottom in terms of price, and the cheapest m-sport around.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Since you are looking at something that is somewhat rare to begin with (wagon), you likely are going to need to expand your search beyond 100 miles. Try looking at the absolute edge of where you would drive to, whatever that is. I would suggest doubling your search radius to 200 miles personally and see what that gets you.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

jjrandorin said:


> I just wanted to say that, reading your posts, you absolutely sound like someone I could have a beer with.
> 
> :thumbup:


Having read and enjoyed many of your posts, I am confident that, should we enter a bar together, the bartender would end up paying for our beers and thanking us for the business !

As ever, your compatriot in advancing the Zen of the art of the deal.

Cheers, and thanks.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> Totally. I'm going to go in the morning so long as he gets back to me, but if not then I gotta get to work and I'll go later in the day. Chances of it selling on a wednesday between 8am and lunch time are slim, I think.


Today's the big day. We're all pulling for ya. Best of luck.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

OK so I went and drove the car today. I didn't negotiate anything yet as I had a meeting and had to leave (really convenient actually...) I told him I'd call him later, and he was trying to push the whole "lots of interest in this car, it won't stick around, etc" even though they recently dropped the price $500. (Which doesn't make sense on a car that is supposedly in high demand.)

Anyways, the car drove great and I want to pursue it. They did agree to let me take it to an indy (after a refundable deposit and signature of course..), but the CA actually seemed surprised that I would want to.... 

One thing though- I did point out a ding in the side of the rear door, looks like it was whacked by another car door. Scuffs and light scratches are easily fixed of course, but the ding will take some specialty treatment. Is it reasonable to expect a three year old CPO to be free of anything that would require professional body work (even a ding-removal specialist?). Should I negotiate that into the price, or simply demand they fix it before I sign anything?


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Another question- the CA assured me the deposit is refundable, but everything I've read on these forums suggests that the CA's don't necessarily know or care about the fine print (sorry to any CA's here...). Where in the documentation can I look to ensure that I can get my deposit back if, say, something comes up in the inspection and I change my mind?


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> Another question- the CA assured me the deposit is refundable, but everything I've read on these forums suggests that the CA's don't necessarily know or care about the fine print (sorry to any CA's here...). Where in the documentation can I look to ensure that I can get my deposit back if, say, something comes up in the inspection and I change my mind?


Not giving legal advice but placing a deposit on a credit card is easily reversed.

Important is to MAKE SURE you aren't agreeing to their asking price by leaving a deposit -- deposit is your assurance you will return the car, only.

Read up on BMW CPO protocol. Usually they take care of dings and scratches as part of the CPO qualification -- body condition is evaluated.

If you make a firm offer, it should be subject to whatever conditions you specify, which might include the ding repair and any other corrections your independent evaluation specifies.

If you have a specific number you will pay for this car and a specific number you will accept for your trade, you can let your CA know those numbers any time.

"If my mechanic gives the green light, I am prepared to purchase this car for $X, and I'll need $Y credit for my trade and the ding needs to be repaired, and anything else my mechanic finds."

*No point in paying for an independent inspection on a car you can't make a deal on.*


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Not giving legal advice but placing a deposit on a credit card is easily reversed.
> 
> Important is to MAKE SURE you aren't agreeing to their asking price by leaving a deposit -- deposit is your assurance you will return the car, only.
> 
> ...


+100 (to everything 1968 just said... every word).


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Not giving legal advice but placing a deposit on a credit card is easily reversed.
> 
> Important is to MAKE SURE you aren't agreeing to their asking price by leaving a deposit -- deposit is your assurance you will return the car, only.
> 
> ...


I was planning on doing exactly that (re: the mechanic inspection, conditional sale, all that. The CA understood completely.)

So if I request the CPO checklist/paperwork, and it does say that the bodywork was inspected, then I should be able to expect a ding to be taken care of then? When I put a deposit and sign an agreement, will they actually write these conditions onto the paperwork? I can't gentleman's agreements go very far when it comes to buying a car.

What does it "cost" for a dealer to take care of a small ding? I know that a lot of them don't have internal body shops, so I full expect them to come back at me with a counteroffer due to the fact that they need to "take care of" this little ding.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Things to watch for:

The dealer accepts your offer AND THEN ADDS THE CPO fee, explaining they agreed to sell you the car for $X, but the CPO is really just like any other extended service contract and, like tire and wheel coverage, it's extra. So MAKE SURE the agreed upon price INCLUDES CPO.

Out-the-door price vs. out-the-door price PLUS dealer packs like doc fees, wire transfer fees, prep fees, etc.  Your offer is out-the-door, the total amount you will put into the deal.

Interest rate bumps. If the dealer tries to add anything beyond BMW's best current rate, if you are qualified for the best rate, insist on getting it.

Rustproofing, paint protection, fabric protection -- you decide if these have value for you and, if so, at what price. As a general rule, the "protection" offered is of much less value than the full retail price dealers charge.

GAP -- if you have any concern that, should your insurance company 'total' the car you would be left in a negative equity position, contact your primary car insurance carrier to inquire about adding GAP. Dealer GAP is often more expensive and you really only need GAP for the first 3 years in most situations, if you need it at all.

EVERYTHING IN WRITING. When you walk into Finance, have a piece of paper with your entire deal specified and signed off so that if the Finance Director adds ANY additional cost to your contract, you can reference your deal sheet to get any added charges or fees removed.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

They should fix the ding. Period. A CPO should be clean when you drive it off the lot.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

The dealer quoted me 0.9%/24, 1.9% up to 60, and 2.9% on 72 month. I know (from reaching out to a close friend that works at Mini/BMW) that the buy rate is 0.9%/1.9%, so I'm also going to see what luck I have asking for that. Even without the buy rate, it's still better than the credit union, but can't hurt.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Just pay asking. That is where you will end up. Don't bother with 'negotiations'.

Some odd zen deal advice here... Everything you do that commits you to THIS car, acts to 'stiffen' the dealer on price. The idea that you would take a car for inspection BEFORE negotiating a price is insane. (Someone suggested making sure your deposit is only ti cover the inspection, not a commitment to buy!), Once you give a deposit and drive the car to a mechanic, AND SPEND $200 AT THAT MECHANIC, you are telegraphing "this guy is committed to this car' in a big way.

The trick is getting to a price with as little contact and investment as possible (with the caveat that any defects from the inspection are subject to discussion)...THEN hammer them with your inspection, the fact that their CPO inspection was a sham, that bodywork and paint correction needs to be done.

I do agree that the wagon is a rare one...people don't buy a wagon on a whim, so they are less likely to show on resale. If you buy a new waogon it is becuase you WANT to own one- for more than the lease term usually.

I want to reiterate something- you wanted a CPO becuase these are special cars, that have been carefully refurbished to factory standards- now, with your own eyes, you can see that aspects of the CPO process are indeed a sham. What now? Glad you are getting a PPI. Would not be surprised to find tires or brake pads under the CPO limits.....


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Maxwagen said:


> I was planning on doing exactly that (re: the mechanic inspection, conditional sale, all that. The CA understood completely.)
> 
> So if I request the CPO checklist/paperwork, and it does say that the bodywork was inspected, then I should be able to expect a ding to be taken care of then? When I put a deposit and sign an agreement, will they actually write these conditions onto the paperwork? I can't gentleman's agreements go very far when it comes to buying a car.
> 
> What does it "cost" for a dealer to take care of a small ding? I know that a lot of them don't have internal body shops, so I full expect them to come back at me with a counteroffer due to the fact that they need to "take care of" this little ding.


Just to piggyback a bit on what 1968 said, its likely the dealer could say something like "CPO is for mechanical certification, it does not certify the car is perfect" or some such. You would need to check the CPO documents carefully to see the exact verbiage but it doesnt really matter to me.

What matters is what you feel you need to buy this car. The key thing is, if you are ready to buy, the dealer needs to KNOW you are ready to buy RIGHT NOW, if, they can just meet your reasonable conditions. You are not "kicking tires" you are a buyer with "check in hand" so to speak, but you would like A B and C taken care of to seal this deal.

(A is the ding).

Do not accept any sort of "gentlemans agreement" on any fixes to the car. The only way I would do that at all would be at a dealer organization that I had considerable history with ( with the CA / Service advisor and Sales manager). Since you dont have this, dont accept a gentlemans agreement.

Anything they are promising you that is not completed should be listed very clearly on a "We Owe" piece of paper. In the finance office they will have you sign one of these. It generally has verbiage that they dont owe you anything.

If they promise to take care of the ding for example, they MAY put one of those "we owe" in front of you that says "nothing" on it and then verbally tell you "on thats just a formality, we will fix it for you". IF that happens, be polite but firm and state you would like the "we owe" document to include XXXXXX where X = whatever it is they are stating they owe you.

For completeness sake, I made a copy of one from my last car purchase. It was a new car, and I am not in the car business so I am not 100 percent they do this on used cars, but I am like 99 percent sure. I would ASK for one to be generated if they dont give you one that shows anything they are promising you.

Mine just has my wifes (whose car it was) personal info blocked out on it:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

BMW CPO Checklist here:

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/cpo/certification.aspx

Note, door panels are on the list.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> As others have pointed out- here and throughout Bimmerfest- a CPO is not any kind of guarantee of a good ownership experience. A well shopped private party with a PPI and a BMW warranty gets you the same for $4k less.


Is CPO the same coverage as ESC Gold? If so the pricing of CPO, say, $2k extra(per local CPO pricing), versus ESC of 6-yr/100k Gold for $2760 MSRP(for my car). $4k savings seems to be a bit tricky to achieve, esp. on high volume F30 and such.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> BMW CPO Checklist here:
> 
> http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/cpo/certification.aspx
> 
> Note, door panels are on the list.


The CPO checklist is quite extensive and beats PPI of most indy shops. Having said that dealer tech may just tick all the items without close inspection, but since it is signed off, customers can go back to ask for all issues to be fixed. Some items(e.g. door dings and paint scratches, windshield cracks, torn leather) can become arguable(pre or post purchase), but even those items can be missed by PPI too, so buyers beware.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> BMW CPO Checklist here:
> 
> http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/cpo/certification.aspx
> 
> Note, door panels are on the list.


If the CPO is done they way it's supposed to be done, there is value.

And here's the language from BMW:

BODY & MECHANICAL
TAKING A DEEPER LOOK.
Only the best pre-owned BMWs qualify for the BMW Certified Pre-Owned Program. To be eligible for enrollment in the Certified Pre-Owned Vehicle Program, a late-model vehicle must be in service for at least six months or have more than 6,000 miles but less than 60,000 miles on the odometer.
They must pass an extensive examination and a thorough and rigorous inspection by BMW factory-trained technicians. They inspect the vehicle for safety, performance and wear. *If something is not right, it is fixed. If it cannot be fixed, the vehicle cannot become a Certified Pre-Owned BMW.*
In short, we're picky. But when you see everything covered under our Protection Plan, you'll understand why.
Every Certified Pre-Owned BMW also comes with a vehicle history report so you know it's maintenance history at the time of certification.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> If the CPO is done they way it's supposed to be done, there is value.
> 
> And here's the language from BMW:
> 
> ...


That is the price premium of CPO, at least that's the pledge from BMWNA, and it is up to the local service and sales to implement that.  Should the CA be responsible to check that all items are OK before delivery?


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

OK so round 1 of negotiations is over. I asked for a number that was a decent amount lower than the asking price of $34,9, but left some room in case they wanted to work it up to where my hard limit is. CA immediately balked, and said the car was popular, won't last long, it's already underpriced etc and said there was a lot of interest in it. 

So here's the thing- the car was listed 2-3 weeks ago, and after a week and a half or so, the price was dropped $500. Why would the price drop on a car that is showing a lot of interest? That's where I basically called his BS, and he said he'd call me back after "checking on another model that came in" to see if I was interested.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Deal done, deposit down. They went at $33k (which is actually my limit)for a car that was at $35,5 two weeks ago, buy rate on financing. Private party value on Edmunds and KBB was $31,5 so I'm pretty happy with what I got.

Thank you all for the help - it came in very handy. Still gotta tackle the trade in though...


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Maxwagen said:


> Deal done, deposit down. They went at $33k (which is actually my limit)for a car that was at $35,5 two weeks ago, buy rate on financing. Private party value on Edmunds and KBB was $31,5 so I'm pretty happy with what I got.
> 
> Thank you all for the help - it came in very handy. Still gotta tackle the trade in though...


You selling the "trade" separately? If not, and you are doing it at that dealer, your deal is NOT done until all of the parameters are agreed to. they will just claw back some or most of that discount from your trade.

Anyway, be prepared for that and what you will do if you do not get an acceptable trade number. Those are definitely 2 different transactions but they tend to bundle them together to make it easier for them to move money around in the deal.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

jjrandorin said:


> You selling the "trade" separately? If not, and you are doing it at that dealer, your deal is NOT done until all of the parameters are agreed to. they will just claw back some or most of that discount from your trade.
> 
> Anyway, be prepared for that and what you will do if you do not get an acceptable trade number. Those are definitely 2 different transactions but they tend to bundle them together to make it easier for them to move money around in the deal.


Yeah I am prepared for that. I have a trade number in my head, so we'll see. I made it a point to keep them separate.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Maxwagen said:


> Yeah I am prepared for that. I have a trade number in my head, so we'll see. I made it a point to keep them separate.


That is a good strategy, namely, treating new car(purchase/lease), trade, and F&I as 3 separate transactions.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

Maxwagen said:


> Yeah I am prepared for that. I have a trade number in my head, so we'll see. I made it a point to keep them separate.


Before you head down there again, you should take your car to CarMax (if you haven't already) to see what they will give you for it. Only takes about 30 min and gives you another data point. If the dealer meets/beats CM great, if not you can decide your next move.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> Deal done, deposit down. They went at $33k (which is actually my limit)for a car that was at $35,5 two weeks ago, buy rate on financing. Private party value on Edmunds and KBB was $31,5 so I'm pretty happy with what I got.
> 
> Thank you all for the help - it came in very handy. Still gotta tackle the trade in though...


Congratulations on your first BMW.

As has been said, this deal is far from "done," but you've got a firm price on a CPO car.

They need to take care of the ding.
They need to show you all the CPO paperwork/Carfax, etc.
You got the buy rate financing -- excellent, almost free credit.
Is your negotiated price "out the door"* plus ONLY Tax and Government mandated fees?* Or is there a fat dealer doc fee lurking ahead in Finance? Careful. Get it sorted before you set foot into the F&I office!!

You asked about "polite." I think it's always wise to be polite. FIRM, but polite. And, in this case firm means not being low balled on your trade, not being intimidated into claw-backs in the Finance office, not accepting ANY verbal dodges when you ask for CPO documentation and, if you wish, asking to speak with the tech who did the CPO cert.

We have great respect for the CA's who contribute to this forum and this is not to dis anyone, but the reality is dealers are after every last dollar -- that is their job. Your job is to decide how many of YOUR dollars the dealer gets. Hang tough. Be clear. Keep restating terms that are agreeable to you and DO NOT let the dealer trick you into negotiating against yourself.

FOR EXAMPLE, if you have a number for your trade and the dealer comes in lower, your response is, "I need (your number) to do this deal. Go back and get my number approved.

When they say they can't possibly, you are at a choice point. You can stop the deal and tell them you can't go below your number on the trade, period. If they can't do that reasonable number, which you can support from your current market research, then you understand that they will have to unwind the deal.

Or you can give a little by saying, "How close to my number can you get?"

When they say, "We've given you our best number," the optimal response is to repeat the number you need and say, again, "We need to do better on the trade. How much closer to my number can you get?"

When they go into meaningless word tracks about how they aren't making anything on the deal already and they've already accommodated you on the price of the BMW, and, and, and..., you say, "How much closer to my trade number can you get? You need to do much better for me to do this deal today, which I am ready to do."

Being "polite" DOES NOT MEAN allowing the dealer to change the conversation. They can talk all the want to about how well they've treated you on the deal already. This means nothing to you. IF, that is, you can defend your trade number.

Of course, a BMW store wants to sell BMW vehicles, not your trade, so you won't get top dollar. But if you know the dealer trade value of your trade, don't give away any more than you must, within reasonable parameters.

Finally, you are fortunate in that now you can become a "monthly payment buyer." Since you know the APR, and you know the agreed selling price of your new BMW, and you can determine tax and DMV on your own, you can CAREFULLY calculate what your monthly payment will be if your trade number is what you want.

So, you can say, "I really don't care how you move the numbers around. You get my trade for however you want to value it and I drive out in the BMW, with the ding repaired and the CPO paperwork for $X/month for Y months." This way, you don't care if they discount the BMW further or over-allow on your trade, or add a doc fee, or whatever. You know that at $x/month for Y months, you've got the deal you want. A simple Excel interest calculation spreadsheet template is all you need to massage the numbers to work for you.

I think that's probably more advice than you wanted.

Enjoy your new car. Those wagons are great.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Anyone have any comment on dealer conveyance fee? My initial purchase agreeemebt (which does not yet bear my signature) has a $599 "conveyance fee" which the dealership says INCLUDES things like the tile and lisencing, ref transfer, etc. Still seems like a lot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

And here's the thing about being a monthly payment buyer. It becomes simple multiplication. Every additional dollar added to a monthly payment, multiplied by the number of months of the loan is an easy way to keep track of where you are.

For example, on a 60 month loan, an extra dollar per month adds $60 to your total transaction cost. Conversely, every dollar you decrease that monthly reduces your total transaction cost by that dollar multiplied by the months of the loan.

A $10 monthly bump on a 60 month loan is $600. 

So, who cares how the dealer writes up the final deal if that monthly payment, plus your trade, plus any down payment cash you add to the deal equals the TOTAL TRANSACTION COST with which you are comfortable.

BUT BE CAREFUL. If the dealer senses you are fixed on a monthly payment amount, they can increase the loan length or increase your down payment cash. HOLD FIRM ON ALL OF THESE MOVING PARTS, and all will be well. And, before you sign, DOUBLE CHECK loan length, cash down, and monthly payment amount. Then check it again and, if their numbers match your numbers, it's time to drive your BMW off the friggin' lot!! Woo Hoo!


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Congratulations on your first BMW.
> 
> As has been said, this deal is far from "done," but you've got a firm price on a CPO car.
> 
> ...


No this is great. If anything, responses like this give people confidence which is 90% of what people need when buying a car.

I'll fight the trade-in fight tomorrow.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> Anyone have any comment on dealer conveyance fee? My initial purchase agreeemebt (which does not yet bear my signature) has a $599 "conveyance fee" which the dealership says INCLUDES things like the tile and lisencing, ref transfer, etc. Still seems like a lot.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Careful. If this includes DMV tags and other government fees, you want it broken out. Otherwise it's dealer pack. Hard to fight, but there is always a way to negotiate offsets -- like additional free service visits or something of value equal to what they may be clawing back in that fee.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Oh, so we can all sleep well tonight, *DO NOT TAKE THE CAR FOR INDEPENDENT INSPECTION UNTIL YOU'VE NAILED DOWN THE FINAL DEAL*, including trade, payments, down, add-ons, fees, EVERYTHING.

If they know you've spent time and YOUR MONEY at your mechanic, they will become more rigid, because they know you are less likely to walk away from a deal where you've already invested your money and extra time.

Play the game by their rules. And their rules say they are after every last dollar they can get from you. Nothing wrong with those rules, but never forget, those are the rules.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

*What's a polite way to enter "negotiation" on price?*

I'm actually leaving the Ford on the lot to be appraised while I take the BMW to be inspected tomorrow. Sort of a convenience matter.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Oh, so we can all sleep well tonight, *DO NOT TAKE THE CAR FOR INDEPENDENT INSPECTION UNTIL YOU'VE NAILED DOWN THE FINAL DEAL*, including trade, payments, down, add-ons, fees, EVERYTHING.
> 
> If they know you've spent time and YOUR MONEY at your mechanic, they will become more rigid, because they know you are less likely to walk away from a deal where you've already invested your money and extra time.
> 
> Play the game by their rules. And their rules say they are after every last dollar they can get from you. Nothing wrong with those rules, but never forget, those are the rules.


My strategy usually is to nail down the car first(the primary transaction), while trade and/or F&I are secondary transactions. In other words, the final price on the CPO needs to be with no-string attached(or no contingency). From that perspective, the PPI is basically the sunk cost to complete the primary transaction, and if PPI goes south, there will be no need to proceed to the secondary transactions.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> My strategy usually is to nail down the car first(the primary transaction), while trade and/or F&I are secondary transactions. In other words, the final price on the CPO needs to be with no-string attached(or no contingency). From that perspective, the PPI is basically the sunk cost to complete the primary transaction, and if PPI goes south, there will be no need to proceed to the secondary transactions.


Interesting approach. I prefer to give the dealer the opportunity to play with all the moving parts of a deal from the start. If I have a fix on my desired total transaction cost, then how the dealer moves the numbers around is of less concern. Before I sign the contract I have the chance to see how the dealer has put my deal together -- but usually I don't care what was done if the bottom line is where I need it to be. And where I need it to be is where it needs to be -- and I make sure, politely of course, that the dealer understands that getting there is a necessary step to the sale.

I've had my trades over-allowed and under-allowed and I've been told to take my trade elsewhere because the dealer flat out told me up front I could get more for it down the street. And, when a dealer understands the customer isn't moving on total transaction cost, they will call the dealer down the street for the customer to secure a higher price on the trade to get the deal done. Truth.

My only concern with allowing the dealer to watch me sink money into a private party inspection BEFORE we have a complete deal is, no offense to forum CA's, I prefer not to make more work for myself -- and the dealer is gonna be thinking, "This customer just sunk cash into a PPI. Now we've got him so we ain't giving an extra nickle on his trade."

I've heard stories of people who think they're being clever by leaving their trade at home, negotiating a deal on a new car, and then trying to backdoor their trade, thinking they've fooled the dealer. In an 'out slick the dealer' contest, the dealer wins every time, because car buyers do deals infrequently whereas car dealers get to practice their trade every friggin' day of the year. And they get pretty good at it. (Not saying the OP is trying to out slick anyone on this deal)

I just prefer to lay out all my cards and let the dealer shuffle the deck all they want. I know my final numbers. The dealer needs to get to those numbers, any way he wants. My job is to convince the dealer that my final, reasonable numbers can't be bumped. Once everyone understands that reality, either I get the great deal I'm seeking, or I choose to pay more, or I walk. I've done all three.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

I actually did mention a trade in number that I could be happy with, to the CA when I made my offer on the car on the phone. So we'll see if it comes close, but I'm sure it sorta went in one ear and out the other.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> I actually did mention a trade in number that I could be happy with, to the CA when I made my offer on the car on the phone. So we'll see if it comes close, but I'm sure it sorta went in one ear and out the other.


Excellent. You got a number on the table early on. When your CA doesn't remember that number, you can politely remind him, as in "As we discussed, I need $X for my trade."

When he says no can do, it's time for your gentle expression of disappointment, as in, "Hey, that was the number we discussed and I have proceeded in good faith based on that number. You never told me that was not a doable number."

If he says, "Well, that would have been based on $35K for the BMW and we've gone way below that for you," wash, rinse, repeat your number as the number you need. "Well, my trade number has been on the table throughout this negotiation and it's still on the table as part of this deal. What can you do, Mr. helpful, can't wait to give you all 10's on the survey CA, to get me this deal done the way I need it to be done??"

Cede no ground!


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> I'm going to look at this CPO car soon, and I have the approximate numbers in my head of what the car is worth, from trade-in value to CPO retail. Also have an idea of what my current car's trade-in is worth as well, so I have a good idea of where I'd like to end up. I personally think the price could come down another $1k-$2k at least. This particular car was a trade-in from this dealer's own customer, not a lease return bought from BMWNA.
> 
> I don't want to seem rude, but I also tend to be an ineffective pushover. After I've looked at the car and decided I want to pursue it, what's an effective way of saying "I want to buy this car but I need to see if you can work on the price"?


quite honestly if your main concern in negotiation is being polite, you've already lost.....


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> quite honestly if your main concern in negotiation is being polite, you've already lost.....


Profoundly, and, with all due respect, politely* disagree! *

I have never needed to abandon common courtesy and the politeness my mother taught me in order to secure excellent car deals.

I am confident that every CA on this forum will confirm that courteous customers, overall, do better on deals than those who flunk the attitude test.

As an aside, when my wife had a retail business, she would, on rare occasion, add a PMO surcharge on a customer's order, if that customer managed, through demands and/or rudeness, to Pis# her off.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> ... because I just wasn't comfortable with the monthly payment I'd have.


Car biz slang, "Sir, you don't drive a payment, you drive a car ..."

Maybe you are looking for too much car for your budget.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> Car biz slang, "Sir, you don't drive a payment, you drive a car ..."
> 
> Maybe you are looking for too much car for your budget.


:thumbup:

I said in an earlier post:
_"$20/month is $1,440 opportunity cost over 72 months to drive the BMW you want.

While we're all rooting for you to make this deal, and we all squeeze every nickle until the buffalo screams on our own deals, to a point, sooner or later it becomes more about the car."_

Yet I understand the 'first BMW' jitters, especially if it is a used car which may involve some repair costs down the line.

Hoping OP makes his deal and is happy with the result. He certainly got a ton of advice from this thread!


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I said in an earlier post:
> _"$20/month is $1,440 opportunity cost over 72 months to drive the BMW you want.
> ...


:thumbup:


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

MJBrown62 said:


> Car biz slang, "Sir, you don't drive a payment, you drive a car ..."
> 
> Maybe you are looking for too much car for your budget.


Car salesman slang- turn it back to the customers fault. (With all due respect- you know that.)

As we know, the dealer doesn't care WHO buys it. Maybe the price is higher than true market? Maybe it takes a week or four of not moving for the sales manager to price it 'right'. Or not.

We shall see.

(OP- DO NOT call them or reach out for at least 2 weeks. IMO. Anyone else have a recommendation??)


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## Milliwatt Rob (Aug 27, 2016)

Does it have a carfax? If yes, see how long the dealer has had it on the market. The longer, the better your bargaining position.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

1968BMW2800 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I said in an earlier post:
> _"$20/month is $1,440 opportunity cost over 72 months to drive the BMW you want.
> ...


No disrespect intended, but who in their right mind would finance a 3 year old CPO for 72 months. The car will be 9 years old when it gets paid off unless paid off early!!!!


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

ard said:


> Car salesman slang- turn it back to the customers fault. (With all due respect- you know that.)
> 
> As we know, the dealer doesn't care WHO buys it. Maybe the price is higher than true market? Maybe it takes a week or four of not moving for the sales manager to price it 'right'. Or not.
> 
> ...


Your recommendation is a good one. The reality is that the OP was not comfortable with the deal offered. He has a car so he can afford to wait. I have no doubt he will get the deal he wants eventually. It just may not be at that particular store or on that particular car. Patience is a virtue.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Your recommendation is a good one. The reality is that the OP was not comfortable with the deal offered. He has a car so he can afford to wait. I have no doubt he will get the deal he wants eventually. It just may not be at that particular store or on that particular car. Patience is a virtue.


You basically summed up my situation perfectly. I've been looking at these cars since early March, so I'm not one who rushes into a car deal. I did the same thing with my Ford, and granted I knew much less about negotiating back then, but I still got money off on THE exact car I wanted- the last Red ST3-package + sunroof 2013 Focus i could find in the state.

Everyone had valid points. The price of the BMW was good, and the dealer couldn't go farther on either end of the deal. Fair enough, I can't exactly fault them. I'm totally aware that this is all on me at this point.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## RonBurgundy (Feb 18, 2016)

Best of luck. You might have another epiphany when Carmax gets you their bid (the BMW store deal might not be bad at all).


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

*What's a polite way to enter "negotiation" on price?*



RonBurgundy said:


> Best of luck. You might have another epiphany when Carmax gets you their bid (the BMW store deal might not be bad at all).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


I think it was a bit low due to my needing tires (valid concern) and they said "oh we'll have to respray both bumpers". (Total BS). The car was going to go straight to auction, and I highly doubt they were going to do much more than slap a set of tires on.

Plus the " auction valuation" sheet they were showing me to show what my car was worth was basing it on an "average" condition. With some new tires on, my car would be in excellent shape if it weren't for one small primer-deep scuff on the front bumper. My Ford was actually in better exterior shape than the CPO BMW I was buying...

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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

If the car needs tires and has a primer deep scuff, then it's not worth as much. You can't base the value on what it should be like.
 It's pretty rare to use an "excellent value." That's a showroom ready trade in.
 Even if the car is going to auction, the value reflects the current condition. The person at the auction will base their bid on it needing new tires and a bumper re-paint. So they bid less as well. An issue with a trade in doesn't just go away; it has an impact no matter which direction it is headed in.



Maxwagen said:


> I think it was a bit low due to my needing tires (valid concern) and they said "oh we'll have to respray both bumpers". (Total BS). The car was going to go straight to auction, and I highly doubt they were going to do much more than slap a set of tires on.
> 
> Plus the " auction valuation" sheet they were showing me to show what my car was worth was basing it on an "average" condition. With some new tires on, my car would be in excellent shape if it weren't for one small primer-deep scuff on the front bumper. My Ford was actually in better exterior shape than the CPO BMW I was buying...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> If the car needs tires and has a primer deep scuff, then it's not worth as much. You can't base the value on what it should be like.
> It's pretty rare to use an "excellent value." That's a showroom ready trade in.
> Even if the car is going to auction, the value reflects the current condition. The person at the auction will base their bid on it needing new tires and a bumper re-paint. So they bid less as well. An issue with a trade in doesn't just go away; it has an impact no matter which direction it is headed in.


When I offer a high line dealer the opportunity to evaluate my trade, I present it in as close to 'front line ready' condition as is reasonable. And even then, I assume the dealer will base his offer on auction/Black Book/current sales data. I expect to receive less as the opportunity cost for my not having to do the car dealer's demanding job. I don't want to take carjackers for test drives, I am not a credit union, and I don't want men with too much cheap cologne driving my car or seeing where I live!

Whether BMW is considered a high line car or a "German Chevy," we know that the ownership experience of a BMW differs from that of a Chevy or Ford in significant ways, including costs and including the need to maintain the car well in order to always feel the joy of driving a nice car.

This may sound silly or vain to some, but most of the time when I'm out and about, someone comes up and admires my car. Weird as it sounds, I feel a certain responsibility to make sure the car that is being admired is worthy of that admiration -- thus, the bumper scratches and curb rashes get fixed, the car stays washed, and, if necessary, the tires are renewed before they have to be. If I'm worrying about $20/month more in car payments, this might add stress when my baby need a couple of hundred bucks worth of heavy detailing.

I have always considered it a privilege to drive a nice car. With privilege comes responsibility. The beasts must be fed.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

So in your experience car is it worth spending $600-$700 to have tires put on before it's appraised? 


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen said:


> So in your experience car is it worth spending $600-$700 to have tires put on before it's appraised?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


I doubt one could hope to recover the $600 -$700 investment on a trade-in.

And I would expect that the worn tires would reduce the value of the trade by a lot.

While dealers might not admit this, there is a Gestalt about a trade appraisal. The worn tires and the scratches feed that Gestalt and, collectively, lower the value beyond the sum of the individual costs of the tires and scratch repair.

On my most recent deal, as I have mentioned before, the dealer from whom I bought my new car suggested I take my trade to the dealer down the street who sells the line of cars that my trade was. It worked out well, and didn't take much of my time. CarMax was on the low end in my case.

Trades are tough. And on your deal, you will need to hit it just right to recover more value from the trade side of things. Just not enough net dollars to play with, I fear.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

But then again, sometimes one gets lucky. Once a dealer over-valued my trade because a salesman wanted the car as a college car for his son, so I got a few bucks extra and once the mechanic who put my trade up on the rack as part of the dealer's appraisal (back when they went to that sort of trouble) wanted my trade for his wife and I got a few hundred extra.

Whereas when I did a lease return on a drop dead gorgeous, flawless, with new rubber all around, 2012 Jaguar XK, the dealer grounded the car as a courtesy and sent it off to Jaguar's internal auction -- the car showed up at a Jag dealer in another state and was listed for sale at less than the lease residual. That was in 2014, exactly 2 years and 36,00 easy miles after I drove that Jag off the lot. A $96,000 car became a $50,000 used car in the space of 2 years and 36,000 miles.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Maxwagen:

You've done well for yourself. You have truly tested the bottom on where the dealer will go today. They let you walk.

Next week they may sell the car for $35,000 to someone else who will buy some F&I add-ons and pay a higher margin for financing.

Or you may get a call to see if you're still interested.

Or you may wake up tomorrow and say what the hell and go do the best deal they have offered you.

The car is a few years old and not getting newer. Your plan is to make payments for a long time and hopefully, after the warranty ends and you're still driving the car, all will be well. But if the air conditioning malfunctions or the fancy all wheel drive system hiccups, or the electronics do what BMW electronics sometimes do -- well, it ain't cheap and there won't be much value in the car in a few years if you decide it's time for another change.

The joy comes from negotiating a solid deal, which you have done, on what one hopes is a solid car. FWIW, I have never driven a CPO beyond the warranty. Just no fun to drive these costy beasts knowing the liability will be mine if, inevitably, the mechanic comes out from under the car shaking his head and with a grim face tells you to pull out your wallet.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Maxwagen said:


> So in your experience car is it worth spending $600-$700 to have tires put on before it's appraised?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Used tires off eBay/craigslist with 40, 50%+ tread can be had for $300 mounted, set of 4. Lots of places sell used tires- do an eBay search based on miles from your zipcode. No need to buy crap no-name new tires- you can fine OE brands/models that people just leave at the tire store when they change tires- companies collect these tires and sell the good ones.


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## OBB (May 12, 2017)

I've just spend over an hour reading this whole thread and I'm pulling for ya. I hope something works out. I'm in a similar situation about buying a used one myself but I won't highjack your thread with my story.


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## Maxwagen (Mar 17, 2017)

OBB said:


> I've just spend over an hour reading this whole thread and I'm pulling for ya. I hope something works out. I'm in a similar situation about buying a used one myself but I won't highjack your thread with my story.


Meh, go ahead, my story is floundering. 

I went to Carmax today and they beat the dealer by $1,500. Which is great.

And now my wife is getting cold feet about having a larger car payment altogether on one of the cars... *sob*

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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Maxwagen said:


> Meh, go ahead, my story is floundering.
> 
> I went to Carmax today and they beat the dealer by $1,500. Which is great.
> 
> ...


Thats 1500 extra... you probably need to buy it before your wife puts down the hammer and decides you dont need a BMW at all.... just sayin... ( :angel: )


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