# did i mention that i hate DBW throttle?



## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

roaring into lab today at 7am...i realize again the beauty of mechanical throttle linkages.

it's so linear.

having spent the past two days in DBW cars, it's a relief to drive something where i am plugged into the car.

the new M3 has snappy throttle response, but the non M cars are so disjointed. it speaks to the general excellence of BMW that their bread n butter cars still outperform their peers with this sucky-arsed feedback in the 330s and 325s (even with software tweaking).


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## Guest (May 4, 2002)

blackdawg said:


> *roaring into lab today at 7am...i realize again the beauty of mechanical throttle linkages.
> 
> it's so linear.
> 
> ...


What I've been wondering lately is what forced BMW to intorduce the DBW throttle in it's current highly-flawed state. I mean, BMW, at least from an engineering side, hasn't really previously screwed up. But for '01 we get both the hyper-boosted steering and the DBW throttle, two certifiable goofs. Did they just think that enthusiasts no longer bought BMWs and the badge buyers would never notice? Because you do not have to be an extreme enthusiast to hate the DBW throttle or crappy steering (and the retrofit sucks too, just in a different way).

Supposedly the steering was "fixed" for '02 but they turned around and made the '02s hideously ugly, so they're still not an option.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

BMW design & engineering are obviously going through an identity crisis. Perhaps it's the incredible growth they've experienced that has them running very thin in those departments. The superstars (design & engineering) perhaps get upset and leave when small niche companies grow wildly into large corporations.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*reasons why DBW?*

i think the DBW is audi, bmw, and porsche (at least, don't care about the scandinavian reasons) has to do with all of the DSC/PSM stuff.

pretty sure they cannot implement DSC without a DBW throttle for whatever reason.

they sure can do ASC+T (which is more than fine for my driving purposes) with mechanical throttle linkages, though.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: reasons why DBW?*



blackdawg said:


> *i think the DBW is audi, bmw, and porsche (at least, don't care about the scandinavian reasons) has to do with all of the DSC/PSM stuff.
> 
> pretty sure they cannot implement DSC without a DBW throttle for whatever reason.
> 
> they sure can do ASC+T (which is more than fine for my driving purposes) with mechanical throttle linkages, though. *


My car has mechanical throttle and DSC. :dunno: DSC might be cheaper with DBW though, because the engine can be restrained electronically, rather than using a mechanical linkage.

DBW helps fuel economy, very important with CAFE standards. Also, new engine technologies need DBW, such as VALVETRONIC and the M5s individual throttle butterflies. Mabye DBW was put on the 325/330s in an ancicipation to VALVETRONIC :dunno:


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

well it looks as though brake by wire isn't supposed to be a disappointment:dunno: .


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## Guest (May 4, 2002)

IMO, the DBW throttle foreshadows a coming day when BMW hopes to only have to offer a single tranny per model, some variant of SMG. I honestly think the true manual tranny's days are numbered at BMW. 

The DBW throttle works very poorly with a human controlled clutch. The reason step drivers don't complain about the DBW throttle is that they don't use a clutch. A computer controlled clutch is obviously going to be able to work with a computer controled throttle much better than a manual either will work with a computer controlled other. You pretty much have to have BOTH be manual or BOTH be computer-controlled. But a manual clutch with a computer throttle SUCKS.

But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only.


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

TD said:


> *But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only. *


 I hope not. I like the idea of smg, but not that much


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *IMO, the DBW throttle foreshadows a coming day when BMW hopes to only have to offer a single tranny per model, some variant of SMG. I honestly think the true manual tranny's days are numbered at BMW.
> 
> The DBW throttle works very poorly with a human controlled clutch. The reason step drivers don't complain about the DBW throttle is that they don't use a clutch. A computer controlled clutch is obviously going to be able to work with a computer controled throttle much better than a manual either will work with a computer controlled other. You pretty much have to have BOTH be manual or BOTH be computer-controlled. But a manual clutch with a computer throttle SUCKS.
> 
> But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only. *


Since SMG uses a clutch, maybe we could have a clutch sometimes computer controlled and sometimes human controlled. :dunno:

As I have said, DBW isn't a big deal to me or most people. I'll give DBW track impressons the fist week of June. :angel:


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*just waiting for long term reports on SMG.*

i know from a local ferrari owners that the F1 system in the prancing horses eat clutches.

am curious, since clutches are a wear and tear item, to see (1) how long they last under SMG normal usage (i.e. aggressive M drivers) and (2) how they're covered.

it's too beautiful to heel and toe just for the pure joy of doing it for one's self for me to ever buy an SMG equipped car. maybe when i'm good enough to be an SCCA racer i can then say i need SMG.

ha!


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> Since SMG uses a clutch, maybe we could have a clutch sometimes computer controlled and sometimes human controlled. :dunno:
> 
> As I have said, DBW isn't a big deal to me or most people. I'll give DBW track impressons the fist week of June. :angel: *


I have DBW throttle and "human controlled" clutch on my cars and have ZERO problems with the combo...


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## SteveMD (Apr 22, 2002)

*Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3*

While the 330i 5spd Sport I sold had God's own brakes, I found the controls markedly unlinear (except for the excellent trans and aforementioned killer brakes). So, I bought a '98 M3 sedan. After a year I sold this excellent car. Didn't take long for E36 M3 withdrawal symptoms to set in so I bought another one 2 weeks ago (yes, another sedan)


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## Guest (May 6, 2002)

*Re: Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3*



SteveMD said:


> *While the 330i 5spd Sport I sold had God's own brakes, I found the controls markedly unlinear (except for the excellent trans and aforementioned killer brakes). So, I bought a '98 M3 sedan. After a year I sold this excellent car. Didn't take long for E36 M3 withdrawal symptoms to set in so I bought another one 2 weeks ago (yes, another sedan)  *


Actually Steve, you are the charter member of the Ex-330i E36 M3 Club. You were first. We got our 330is within days of each other but you bagged on yours a good, what, 6-8 months before I did (I don't remember exactly when but I know it was significantly earlier).

Do you still have those pics of the two 330is together over at Congressional?

And, yeah, the brakes were impressive.


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## SteveMD (Apr 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3*



TD said:


> *
> 
> Do you still have those pics of the two 330is together over at Congressional?
> 
> *


I might. Let me check at home. How many posts does one have to make before you can attach pix to sig? Or do I need to RTFonlineM?


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## Guest (May 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3*



SteveMD said:


> *
> 
> I might. Let me check at home. How many posts does one have to make before you can attach pix to sig? Or do I need to RTFonlineM? *


Yes.

You can use the same image tags you use in posts to put an image in your sig.

Take out the underscores in the following, and you have the proper format. Regular HTML works too.
[img_]http://www.yourURL.com/image.jpg[/IMG_]


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*TD: car comparison?*

hey!

i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.

the wife's 325xiT is....well....i used to think it was a pig. now i think it's more of a lean pig. the engine really, once it's spooled up, is a great little thing. i always marvel at it when i get to drive it, especially on the highway.

when you consider most new 2002 altimas have a 2.5litre 4cylinder as the more prevalent engine, the subaru steady is the 2.5litre boxer 4, it's amazing how zippy the little 2.5 litre inline 6 is.

anyhow, i still hate the goddamn drive by wire throttle. i finally figured out how to properly heel toe the car but it's far from a fluent exercise as it tends to be in the mechanical throttle cars.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

TD said:


> *snip...
> 
> But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only. *


TD,
I think you are on the mark but not exactly. I think these "advancements" are more of a way to start controling our driving behavior. I think SMG is a way to wean us of a standard and that the slushie is going to be the only tranny available. It and the DBW allows the manufacturer to control how we drive in terms of milage and even speed. These in combination allow them to really dictate what we do with the car.

My guess is that ALL cars will eventually be automatic.
Haus


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## Guest (May 6, 2002)

*Re: TD: car comparison?*



blackdawg said:


> *hey!
> 
> i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.
> 
> ...


Invert those letters. It's a '99 323iC (as in E36 convertible). The engine is very similar, though. The E36s had the M52 while the E46s had the M52TU. Still, it has nice power (I drove it in this morning) and is very very smooth (compared to the M engine). Compared to the M3 (a sedan), the convertible is very flexible. Cowl-shake is bad. But it's so fun to drive with the top down that you easily dismiss it.

(I know, not the comparison you were looking for, but...)


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: TD: car comparison?*



blackdawg said:


> *hey!
> 
> i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.
> 
> ...


I agree Blackdawg...

Every time I take my 325i on a trip to the Keys or Miami (I'd rather drive from Tampa when I fly overseas - don't like the Tampa - Miami - Tampa _take a chance airlines_ flights), I think to myself: who needs more? I mean, we're talking about a zippy little car that will do 120Mph all day... :thumb:


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: TD: car comparison?*



blackdawg said:


> *hey!
> 
> i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.
> *


I believe JST used to have a 323Ci....


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: TD: car comparison?*



nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> I believe JST used to have a 323Ci.... *


Yep.

The 323 felt bigger and more ponderous than the M3 does. Oddly, a big part of this was the steering, which (IMHO) was overly (and artificially) weighted. The same holds for the throttle return spring, which was heavier than it really needed to be. These two things together, coupled with the slightly softer damping and the slightly larger size, made the 323 feel very sluggish after the M3.

I never took either to the track, but on the autocross circuit the 323 was not measurably inferior to the M3 in terms of handling feel. The ponderous control inputs weren't as annoying or noticeable at the limit, and once past the sort of veneer of luxury that BMW has applied to the E46, it really was nice to drive. The chasis I thought was balanced and well-composed.

Of course, the 323 had nowhere near the power of the M3, but even this isn't entirely bad. The M3 is so quick that you rarely have the opportunity to really wind it out; on public roads, I almost never accelerate at full throttle all the way through any given gear. OTOH, with the 323 I could and did frequently really get on it. With the ECIS intake, the sound at WOT was very nice, making a run up through the gears quite enjoyable.

As a daily driver, the M3 is more fun, but it's more fun in a sort of sensory assault way. It's VERY fast, VERY loud, it handles VERY well, the ride is VERY stiff, etc--even when loafing around town, it feels like a mob enforcer in a suit coat. Restrained and elegant, with violence lurking underneath. It feels like it could easily get you into trouble that you might not really know how to get out of.

In contrast, the 323 felt like a balanced instrument; much more suave, if you will. It handled well, it had adequate power, and it was very refined; the English man-servant to the M3's dressed up button man.

I take nothing away from the E46. If I were a little less of an extremist in my automotive tastes, a 2000 328 (with the original steering and throttle, DSC, and a touch more torque than the 323) would probably be the perfect car.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*drive by wire is becoming ubiquitous.*

i'm a tad worried about this on my upcoming e46m3 (please, i'm almost sick to my stomach about this, but there are always marital compromises) and all of the new 996 911s are DBW.

in both cases, rather abrupt clutch engagement because you can never really feather the throttle. i mean, the thing i've noticed on our 325xiT? i have to thrash the car like hell on weekends when i drive it to "adapt" the OBD2 program. only then can i get anything close to a linear throttle response from a standstill, and in this way, the dinan reprogram of the EML response has helped greatly.

i was on a long drive this past weekend (yesterday) on I-44 in mis-sery (missouri) just outside of st.louis. i left the 325 in 4th gear and punched it. it was fun at that speed. it revs so freely. my worry is that DBW really screws up the track/autocross experience. thing about it, you're coming off the straightaway at 120mph or so, turning sharply to enter the infield part of the course, heel-n-toe, if you screw this up, boy, you've just unsettled the car big time decelerating from 90mph+ or so to 40mph to take that 180 degree left hander. and spin like a top into the grass doing so. or lose a lot of speed and momentum and get passed like crazy.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: drive by wire is becoming ubiquitous.*



blackdawg said:


> *my worry is that DBW really screws up the track/autocross experience. thing about it, you're coming off the straightaway at 120mph or so, turning sharply to enter the infield part of the course, heel-n-toe, if you screw this up, boy, you've just unsettled the car big time decelerating from 90mph+ or so to 40mph to take that 180 degree left hander. and spin like a top into the grass doing so. or lose a lot of speed and momentum and get passed like crazy. *


I've tracked my 325 a lot and this has not been a problem for me. Our turn 2 is exactly the circumstance you describe, 125 mph straight with a hard 180 left hander. My entry speed is 60mph.

Is it different than a mechanical throttle, yes, but once you are used to it you hardly notice it.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*so the car adapts to you or you get used to it?*

indyhaus?

so the car adapts to you and your aggressive fuel/air mixture or do you just get used to how much to blip the gas?

am curious now, man.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: so the car adapts to you or you get used to it?*



blackdawg said:


> *indyhaus?
> 
> so the car adapts to you and your aggressive fuel/air mixture or do you just get used to how much to blip the gas?
> 
> am curious now, man. *


Nah, I don't think the car adjusts. I'm just used to how much to blip to make the throttle to cooperate. It's also timing, you have to do it a half second early to allow for the lag in the DBW.

Track pic attached...course is run CCW.


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## Guest (May 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: drive by wire is becoming ubiquitous.*



in_d_haus said:


> *
> 
> I've tracked my 325 a lot and this has not been a problem for me. Our turn 2 is exactly the circumstance you describe, 125 mph straight with a hard 180 left hander. My entry speed is 60mph.
> 
> Is it different than a mechanical throttle, yes, but once you are used to it you hardly notice it. *


After 15 months and 12K miles on my 330i SP, I still was not "used to it". In fact I hated it more with every passing day. It was especially annoying when I went to drive the car after driving my wife's E36 convertible for a day or so. I never needed time to acclimate to her car after driving my 330i for extended periods but I always had to acclimate when I switched back to the 330i after driving the E36 for even a few hours.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: drive by wire is becoming ubiquitous.*



TD said:


> *
> 
> After 15 months and 12K miles on my 330i SP, I still was not "used to it". In fact I hated it more with every passing day. It was especially annoying when I went to drive the car after driving my wife's E36 convertible for a day or so. I never needed time to acclimate to her car after driving my 330i for extended periods but I always had to acclimate when I switched back to the 330i after driving the E36 for even a few hours. *


I move back and forth from my 1990 5 series to my 2001 3 series with little problem. I won't say I'm perfect every time, I'm not, the DBW isn't perfect.

With all due respect to TD, the last time I was out on the track I had a great duel with a Porsche America. he walked on me in the straight but I was back on him in the corners. The E46 is a very capable car. It is not perfect, it takes time and concentration to drive well. But it can mix it up on the track...


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: TD: car comparison?*



JST said:


> *
> 
> Yep.
> 
> ...


:thumb: :thumb:

I think that you are right about the steering and the trottle. They both feel a little too weighted. But at the limit, the car is incredible. Great balance, the steering is perfect.

I don't think DBW is a problem. Just like anything, you get used to it and there are no problems :dunno:

Just get that 2000 328 and buy a chip and intake and it will be even better :thumb:


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