# DIESEL=Worth?, DO MATH



## oilbelcher (Apr 2, 2006)

Just to focus on the predicted BMW price premium for diesel, if they make the 335d more than $1800 higher than the 335i, they will have big problems with diesel adoption rates. Forget all the great analysis and debate, but the average consumer is not that bright or motivated to conduct cost/mile, depreciation advantages,...

I can see making the X5d $1800 more than the 3.0si gas engine, as that is not the twin turbo gas engine now.

Looking only at price, in my opinion, think BMW should do $1800 premium for x5d, but $1000 for 335d vs 335i. The dollar amount has to be small enough that it is perceived as "rounding" or about same as an extra attachment/feature. More than that, and even the average consumer will be forced to seriously think about why BMW brought diesel here. And keep in mind, I am talking about consumer perception and buying behavior; I am not looking from BMW's perspective which can be different when considering cost premiums for diesel, exchange rate...

And I'm a diesel guy, and really want BMW to succeed with it here (I miss my 320d I had overseas).

Lastly, UCLA95 has a good point. I didn't see that article, but have heard others discuss the US refinery process vs Europe, where we produce less diesel per barrel of oil, and that ratio can't be changed. This will put pressure on diesel price as more cars/trucks accept diesel. In just 2 years there will be many more options. Just wait until Ford/GM finaially put a smaller diesel in their 150/1500 size chassis. There will be many more diesels on the road. Great that our dependence on oil will reduce, but this production ratio will be an issue. Need new oil refineries in the US.


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## Saintor (Dec 14, 2002)

People bothering about saving a few pennies on fuel should not buy a BMW or Mercedes. Period.

If you are serious about saving money, just get a car that is 15000$ cheaper. Otherwise, you are just another typical gadget lover and give us a break about "saving money".


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## Lifestyle (Mar 7, 2008)

Now let me present you the disadvantages of a diesel... poor diesel means high risk to get foulty injectors... 300+ euros a piece, the Turbo... is expensive to replace, and it breaks down... Here in europe 90% of the diesel cars have had the injectors replaced or the turbos.... there are no such problems with a car running on petrol..
The revisions are more expensive with a diesel car.. the fuel filter must be changed at every revision.. etc...


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## oilbelcher (Apr 2, 2006)

Saintor said:


> People bothering about saving a few pennies on fuel should not buy a BMW or Mercedes. Period.
> 
> If you are serious about saving money, just get a car that is 15000$ cheaper. Otherwise, you are just another typical gadget lover and give us a break about "saving money".


good point. it's easy to get lost in discussion and forget the big financial picture. keep in mind though that this is a forum of people who would buy BMW/Merc anyway (or even exclusively), so given this, people are just 1) have good debate about new products and consumer behavior, and 2) probably want some product advantages that come from new features. I would buy a BMW no matter what, but still want advantages of diesel - as long as capital price premium isn't too high (and yes this last statement sounds odd when acknowledging your main point).


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## DM3MD (Nov 11, 2007)

Living in a fairly rural area, I'd have to drive over 30 miles just to get to a diesel pump if I owned a diesel car. 

Not happening.


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## Starab (Feb 17, 2007)

DM3MD said:


> Living in a fairly rural area, I'd have to drive over 30 miles just to get to a diesel pump if I owned a diesel car.


Majority of car ownwers go for decent HP not giant HP,I believe.

I am not against diesel but diesel will not make a big difference unless we get good mpg cars with 2-6 cylinder(VCM varaible /automatic cylinder output), VHP(varaible/auto Horse power output), electricity-gasoline/Diesel hybrid-not battery hybrid.

So many small models of BMW(1 series 3;5 door) are available in Europe(4-6cylinder with Diesel, alternative fuel, Auto-Start-Off etc.) I wonder why we do not get such good economical BMWs here in US?

With the gas/diesel prices now we need some of those BMW models-Period. AND NO ETHANOL, It has no major impact on environment and we still need fuel, either from other countries or from within (RESERVES). Ethanol is just killing us with mpg, auto maintenence and inlating grocery prices-big time.


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## sayemthree (Sep 8, 2006)

hybrid = toxic lead and mercury stripped mined in china and shipped across the world in a polluting ship only to save a few mpg and then require disposal or recycle of the toxic stuff.

hybrid = wanna be tree hugging hypocrite. that or good marketing.


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## bimmercontrol (Jul 15, 2007)

its gonna have to come down to fuel pricing. in europe you can expect to get diesel for 30% less, in canada diesel was generally a good 10cents less, right now im looking premium is about $1.17 and diesel is at about $1.15 per litre, pretty much the same.


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## Malfatto (Dec 4, 2007)

Starab said:


> Majority of car ownwers go for decent HP not giant HP,I believe.
> 
> I am not against diesel but diesel will not make a big difference unless we get good mpg cars with 2-6 cylinder(VCM varaible /automatic cylinder output), VHP(varaible/auto Horse power output), electricity-gasoline/Diesel hybrid-not battery hybrid.
> 
> ...


+1
Agreed. This is what I've said in a few other posts. Just look at the 118d that just got voted world green car. It delivered over 50mpg. And the test of the 520d vs the Prius. 520d delivered ~50mpg.

335d with fantastic performance only delivers about 20% better fuel economy, plus the initial price premium over 335i, plus the higher diesel fuel prices = not such a good idea economically.:thumbdwn:

118d, 320d, 520d with decent performance (0-60 around 8 seconds), probably no price premium (compared to 128i, 328i, 528i), and fantastic fuel economy of 50mpg = makes better sense economically.:thumbup:

My 2 cents...


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## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

Ucla95 said:


> Here's where the OP is wrong:
> First off the 335d has already been stated to be the same price as the 335xi, so we already know it's about $1800 more.
> Secondly, you didn't factor in the FAR higher resale value diesel cars have here in the USA. Check any MBenz, VW, etc.; the resale of a 335d will be AT LEAST $1800 more than a similar 335i. Therefore all you're paying for is the time value of the money, and you're saving money on gasoline. Bottom line, the diesel is CHEAPER.
> Finally you didn't even talk about 425lb/ft of torque!! Do you know how much fun that is??


It isn't fair at all to say the OP is "wrong". The numbers are what they are, is analysis is sound, as far as the economics go.

Of course the numbers will vary by region depending upon your local fuel prices, but for most of us diesel is the same or more expensive than PREMIUM.

With the increase in price over the gas 335, the 335d is not a great financial choice. Although it offers more torque, the redline is lower and the engine isn't nearly as flexible. Everyone who has driven both always prefers the gas motor, it is much more sporting and "fun" to drive.

So to summarize all the foregoing posts:

1. At current fuel prices, buying a diesel won't really save you any money

(ignoring the intangible aspects that a diesel might be cheaper to own after 150k plus miles which I would LOVE to see an analysis on and resale value, most Americans I know would be LESS likely to buy a diesel, not more likely);

2. Diesels are more efficient, take the 520d for example, by returning nearly 50mpg city/highway, so they do allow you to reduce your overall consumption of fuel, despite not technically saving money.

Is that a fair analysis?

There are other reasons to reduce consumption, other than just economic, you can exercise politics a little and reduce your reliance upon the middle east.

BMW will never bring small displacement diesels here, the fact is most BMW owners are badge whores who buy the cars for status, and that is why BMW won't bring those models here (remember the 318)

VW is bringing a TDI passat here which is a pretty nice vehicle, this year, that should return 50mpg...


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## ua549 (Oct 22, 2007)

In town traffic in EUR is much slower than in the US. In the Tampa Bay area poor performing cars such as the 118d, 320d and 520d would have great difficulty getting into the typical 45mph-55mph traffic flow. 0-60 in 8 seconds won't get you into an arterial street without a long wait. :thumbdwn: I've experienced 10 minute delays getting into traffic in a poor performing loaner car. For a diesel to succeed traffic must either slow down, doubtful, or the car must have performance similar to its gasoline counterparts, 0-60 < 6 seconds. The 535d is marginal at 0-60 ~6.5 seconds.

Bottom line is the current crop of diesel cars are fine for leisure minded driving or low volume traffic, but won't cut it for driving in high speed, high volume urban traffic. I drove a MB 300d on the highway for many years. To make it drivable in town I upgraded the turbo and had the engine management chip reprogrammed.

Smaller cars are not the answer either. The driving position in my 535i is somewhat cramped with only 41.5' of legroom. (That's 1 reason why I bought Steptronic.) If there is an adult in the rear cabin, the driving position is almost impossible without amputating the rear passenger's legs. What good is an economy car if the passengers don't fit? It will put more cars on the road. The classic example is 3 people going to lunch together and it requires 2 cars to transport them.


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## Malfatto (Dec 4, 2007)

pilotman said:


> BMW will never bring small displacement diesels here, the fact is most BMW owners are badge whores who buy the cars for status, and that is why BMW won't bring those models here (remember the 318)
> 
> VW is bringing a TDI passat here which is a pretty nice vehicle, this year, that should return 50mpg...


I think you hit on the sad truth of many BMW owners. They would not want to be caught dead in a 320d that would get out run by a Acura TL or Nissan Altima. Even though they would still be in a beautiful premium luxury car that gets twice the gas milage.


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## Malfatto (Dec 4, 2007)

ua549 said:


> In town traffic in EUR is much slower than in the US. In the Tampa Bay area poor performing cars such as the 118d, 320d and 520d would have great difficulty getting into the typical 45mph-55mph traffic flow. 0-60 in 8 seconds won't get you into an arterial street without a long wait. :thumbdwn: I've experienced 10 minute delays getting into traffic in a poor performing loaner car. For a diesel to succeed traffic must either slow down, doubtful, or the car must have performance similar to its gasoline counterparts, 0-60 < 6 seconds. The 535d is marginal at 0-60 ~6.5 seconds.
> 
> Bottom line is the current crop of diesel cars are fine for leisure minded driving or low volume traffic, but won't cut it for driving in high speed, high volume urban traffic. I drove a MB 300d on the highway for many years. To make it drivable in town I upgraded the turbo and had the engine management chip reprogrammed.
> 
> Smaller cars are not the answer either. The driving position in my 535i is somewhat cramped with only 41.5' of legroom. (That's 1 reason why I bought Steptronic.) If there is an adult in the rear cabin, the driving position is almost impossible without amputating the rear passenger's legs. What good is an economy car if the passengers don't fit? It will put more cars on the road. The classic example is 3 people going to lunch together and it requires 2 cars to transport them.


I bet if you take the average 0-60 time of all the cars that are driving around you on your speedy commute in Tampa, it is going to be in the 8-9 second range. Plus, when we are talking about mid-gear passing acceleration (45-55mph) that you mostly use in commuting, a diesel with all of its added torque will blow away a comparable gasoline car.

Plus, you must be 7 feet tall to think there is not enough room in a 5-series. And for you to think there will be more cars on the road because there isn't enough room in the smaller cars to pack people in... Have you looked around you during your commute??? Almost every car has only 1 person in it already!!!:dunno:


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## creator8 (Jan 16, 2008)

sayemthree said:


> hybrid = toxic lead and mercury stripped mined in china and shipped across the world in a polluting ship only to save a few mpg and then require disposal or recycle of the toxic stuff.
> 
> hybrid = wanna be tree hugging hypocrite. that or good marketing.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Lifestyle (Mar 7, 2008)

the problem is that you petrolheads don;t know how to drive a diesel car with turbo.. that's why you find it laggy... for example i drove 202 km in 1h20 min averaging 150 km/h on the return trip i drove 220 km in 1,30 min.. so you can't really say that diesel engined cars aren't capable driving at high speeds, i don't know why do you speak of 318 i mean in general about the smallest engine.. i get offendet of how you talk about diesel, cars i know it's not a petrol engine but it can take the punishment... change gears at 3500 rpm in the next gear the revs will be at around 2000 rpm and you'l have the ful torque of the car and no lag...it's no 4.0 L petrol but it's ok


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## ua549 (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm talking about leaving a stop sign and trying to enter neighborhood arterial streets where the traffic is flowing between 45 mph and 55 mph with very high density. Openings of 10 to 15 car lengths are few and far between. Bigger openings are less frequent. One must accelerate quickly or wait a long time to enter traffic. The arterial street in my neighborhood carries more than 60,000 cars per day. Most of the traffic is within a 10 hour period, 8am to 6pm (~100 cars per minute). The "rush" is between 8am-9am and 5pm-6pm when the traffic density is greater and the speeds are closer to the 45mph limit.


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## ua549 (Oct 22, 2007)

Lifestyle said:


> the problem is that you petrolheads don;t know how to drive a diesel car with turbo.. that's why you find it laggy... for example i drove 202 km in 1h20 min averaging 150 km/h on the return trip i drove 220 km in 1,30 min.. so you can't really say that diesel engined cars aren't capable driving at high speeds, i don't know why do you speak of 318 i mean in general about the smallest engine.. i get offendet of how you talk about diesel, cars i know it's not a petrol engine but it can take the punishment... change gears at 3500 rpm in the next gear the revs will be at around 2000 rpm and you'l have the ful torque of the car and no lag...it's no 4.0 L petrol but it's ok


Diesels are great once you get them moving. 
It's the acceleration from a dead stop that is unacceptable to most people including myself. 
I won't even buy a gasoline car with 0-60 mph times >6 seconds.


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## vernonpat (Jun 20, 2007)

I know the original post is about 335d, but I would like to offer my calculation on another forthcoming BMW diesel.

We are planning on buying the X5 diesel when it comes out to replace our V8 LandRover LR3. Our thinking is that for less money than X5 4.8 and a little more than x5 3.0 (I know the price is not set, so it's just my estimate based on news reports), I can get more torque than the X5 V8 and better mileage than X5 I6. It's as simple as that for me. While diesel cost more than premium, the increase performance and efficiency justify it for me.

We are not buying the X5 diesel for its top speed performance (we would get the 4.8 for that). We are buying it for its utilities (seating for 7, good acceleration from the diesel low-end torque and longevity of diesel engine).


Just trying to offer another perspective.

P.s. We are also in the process of ordering a 535i for European Delivery to replace my wife's V8 Jaguar S-Type, so the 535i would take care of my need for speed


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## ua549 (Oct 22, 2007)

Comparing the performance of a twin turbo diesel (slow 0-60) with a normally aspirated gasoline engine of the same size (slower 0-60) is comparing apples and oranges. However, whatever works for you ...


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## bimmercontrol (Jul 15, 2007)

ua549 said:


> I'm talking about leaving a stop sign and trying to enter neighborhood arterial streets where the traffic is flowing between 45 mph and 55 mph with very high density. Openings of 10 to 15 car lengths are few and far between. Bigger openings are less frequent. One must accelerate quickly or wait a long time to enter traffic. The arterial street in my neighborhood carries more than 60,000 cars per day. Most of the traffic is within a 10 hour period, 8am to 6pm (~100 cars per minute). The "rush" is between 8am-9am and 5pm-6pm when the traffic density is greater and the speeds are closer to the 45mph limit.


if i could get a 2.0L diesel opel vectra onto the autobahn without any problems im sure you can drive it in city streets. i often drive around town and nobody floors it and races off pushing their car to the limit. diesels handle more than fine for getting around anywhere.


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