# Negotiating over invoice for 328/335i lease



## SnapIt (Mar 25, 2012)

Sorry if newbie question, but trying to learn what others have had success in negotiating lease offers.

I am interested in either a 2012 328i or 335i and from my reading, the following are the common required fees from what I can tell and not something you negotiate as part of the capital cost (correct me if I am wrong!):
Acquisition ~$725-925
MACO - $200
Registration/Title - ? (anyone know costs in FL..I think ~$300)

MF: .00195 w/64% residual in March I think.

Using the bmwconfig site, it seems to suggest $1500 over wholesale. Seems a little high? Would dealers easily accept say $500-700 over wholesale...or what is pretty common today?

Appreciate any help


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

hmm....ok, I would say $700 over for a 328 is fair....... 335's are harder to come by so I would say more like $900-$1,200 over invoice, that includes MACO and TSF


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## Ty Vil (Dec 19, 2002)

[email protected] BMW said:


> hmm....ok, I would say $700 over for a 328 is fair....... 335's are harder to come by so I would say more like $900-$1,200 over invoice, that includes MACO and TSF


Why are you cheap selling the car already Greg?


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## jillyjellyroll (Oct 4, 2005)

SnapIt said:


> Sorry if newbie question, but trying to learn what others have had success in negotiating lease offers.
> 
> I am interested in either a 2012 328i or 335i and from my reading, the following are the common required fees from what I can tell and not something you negotiate as part of the capital cost (correct me if I am wrong!):
> Acquisition ~$725-925
> ...


I will tell you this. I'm in the mid-atlantic area, and am about to sign a deal for a fully-loaded 2012 328i at a little less than $800 over invoice. This is with the base MF (with MSDs), base acq. fee, no MACO.

Could I get 500-700 over invoice? Probably, if I pushed hard enough. But given that I spent about 10 minutes on the phone with the CA and they came back to me with a deal that I thought was fair, it's not worth my time to try and push for more.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

[email protected] BMW said:


> hmm....ok, I would say $700 over for a 328 is fair....... 335's are harder to come by so I would say more like $900-$1,200 over invoice, that includes MACO and TSF


Hmm, I can understand giving away a 328i at those levels being that there are enough allocations, but Greg, on the 335i? I mean, if you have plenty of allocations to justify that value, that's one thing; but upon closer examination, you don't even have an allocation to even offer a price on.   Unless you're speaking for other centers that actually have an allocation. :angel:


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

To Ty and Adrian,
I was giving an example of what I THINK ought would be a fair price for an ORDER of a 335 for US delivery on a order based on California sales market.... personally I have not 1 US car, sold OR ordered. Just so you guys understand the S. CA market and competition I can list at least 3 BMW centers in CA that have already sold 328's for invoice or below.. as I have the written quotes, I passed on those counter offers...i.e. I was around $700 over on a 328 and lost 3 sales!. Please keep in mind as Adrian said... there are large allocations of 328's.. and in a 50 mile or so radius there are well.. let me name all the centers, off the top of my head.... RUSNAK BMW, STEVE THOMAS BMW, BOB SMITH BMW, CENTER BMW, CENTURY WEST BMW, PACIFIC BMW, BMW OF MONROVIA, NEW CENTURY BMW, MC KENNA BMW, SHELLY BMW, NICK ALEXANDER BMW, SANTA MONICA BMW, S. BAY BMW, VALENCIA BMW, CREVIER BMW, IRVINE BMW and SHELLY BMW. And Adrian obviously you checked DCS and as you can see we have one 335. As of now I can't do 335 business as I have no cars to sell. For the record It's just my opinion in response to OP first comment.. please feel free to chime in with your comments.. I welcome any conversation.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

[email protected] BMW said:


> To Ty and Adrian,
> I was giving an example of what I THINK ought would be a fair price for an ORDER of a 335 for US delivery on a order based on California sales market.... personally I have not 1 US car, sold OR ordered. Just so you guys understand the S. CA market and competition I can list at least 3 BMW centers in CA that have already sold 328's for invoice or below.. as I have the written quotes, I passed on those counter offers...i.e. I was around $700 over on a 328 and lost 3 sales!. Please keep in mind as Adrian said... there are large allocations of 328's.. and in a 50 mile or so radius there are well.. let me name all the centers, off the top of my head.... RUSNAK BMW, STEVE THOMAS BMW, BOB SMITH BMW, CENTER BMW, CENTURY WEST BMW, PACIFIC BMW, BMW OF MONROVIA, NEW CENTURY BMW, MC KENNA BMW, SHELLY BMW, NICK ALEXANDER BMW, SANTA MONICA BMW, S. BAY BMW, VALENCIA BMW, CREVIER BMW, IRVINE BMW and SHELLY BMW. And Adrian obviously you checked DCS and as you can see we have one 335. As of now I can't do 335 business as I have no cars to sell. For the record It's just my opinion in response to OP first comment.. please feel free to chime in with your comments.. I welcome any conversation.


But therein lies the rub- the OP lives in South Florida and you're talking about the California market. I understand the California market because I worked at BMW of San Francisco for a year and a half before moving to Atlanta, so I know how it is there in SoCal since I would lose a few deals to SoCal centers. Being that the OP lives in SoFL, the centers there might not have many allocations to justify a sale value at that range over invoice being that they won't get a replacement for quite some time, so it's not really fair to say "Hey, $900-1,200 is fair" when maybe that center feels like they need to make all the money on that car because they're selling 328i's at reduced pricing and need to make up for it on a 335i. Are you smelling what I'm cooking now?

You certainly are welcome to your opinion as to what you think should be a fair value over invoice *if* you had one in stock or on allocation. However, I don't think it's fair to your competitors locally and to those of us _regionally_, and even to other Bimmerfest sponsors like myself, Jon, Will, Ivan, and others that you put a number out there or an expectation when the market commands a higher value over invoice or discount off MSRP due to lack of availability. Every franchised center is entitled to sell their alloted cars for whatever they want (even over MSRP- I think your center is reknown for marking up that 1 M for a considerable sum, for example) based on market availability. That being said, I think you could have left it at that 335i's are going for more and leave it at that, IMO. :angel:


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## Ty Vil (Dec 19, 2002)

[email protected] BMW said:


> To Ty and Adrian,
> I was giving an example of what I THINK ought would be a fair price for an ORDER of a 335 for US delivery on a order based on California sales market.... personally I have not 1 US car, sold OR ordered. Just so you guys understand the S. CA market and competition I can list at least 3 BMW centers in CA that have already sold 328's for invoice or below.. as I have the written quotes, I passed on those counter offers...i.e. I was around $700 over on a 328 and lost 3 sales!. Please keep in mind as Adrian said... there are large allocations of 328's.. and in a 50 mile or so radius there are well.. let me name all the centers, off the top of my head.... RUSNAK BMW, STEVE THOMAS BMW, BOB SMITH BMW, CENTER BMW, CENTURY WEST BMW, PACIFIC BMW, BMW OF MONROVIA, NEW CENTURY BMW, MC KENNA BMW, SHELLY BMW, NICK ALEXANDER BMW, SANTA MONICA BMW, S. BAY BMW, VALENCIA BMW, CREVIER BMW, IRVINE BMW and SHELLY BMW. And Adrian obviously you checked DCS and as you can see we have one 335. As of now I can't do 335 business as I have no cars to sell. For the record It's just my opinion in response to OP first comment.. please feel free to chime in with your comments.. I welcome any conversation.


I'm in agreement with Adrian 100%.

I understand your position on 328's - though I do not agree with it. Perhaps it's time for your manager to enroll you in the all day instructor led class "Selling Value." I believe it may have some benefit for you as you seem very focused on price and not building relationships for return customers... Adrian/Jon and I have many happy customers (from these forums) who will return to us many times over for the experience we provide; not because we are the "cheapest/fastest thrill around."

Maybe I'm missing something here; you have zero 335's in your order bank and you're advocating that So. Cal dealers give the car at 900-1200 over invoice for something that doesn't exist.

I was no econ major during my time at Arizona State - but I think it's time for you to study "supply and demand" as well.

I also find it interesting that you work for the Center who was trying to gouge customers on a 1M (we sold both of ours at MSRP to longtime/local customers) and then you're advocating giving up the ghost on new 3's...


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## Pelucida (Sep 20, 2011)

Funny to happen upon this thread. I'm actually in a similar situation as the OP. I picked up a 528 in November for 900 over invoice, but now my wife wants the new 3er. Being that I am in South Florida is it realistic to expect $700 over invoice for a 328 here also (including MACO and training)? Are the prices you guys are quoting also for European Delivery or just US deliveries.


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## JustinTJ (Jun 1, 2011)

The one thing about price oriented buyers, is that they are price oriented buyers. They will come back, especially when they get a low price plus the excellent service, problem solving, and quick replies that Greg is famous for. I will guarantee one thing, and one thing only. Greg gets repeat business. Search this forum by just his name and you'll see a ton of positive posts, and I have yet to see a negative.

I've read posts where he fixes problems created by other local BMW centers and saves EDs for people who originally didn't even order from him. I've read posts where he has made numerous phone calls and emails in order to get delivery options changed when life happens.

My story: I applied for my car originally with a local board sponsor even though he was higher in price. I figured you get what you pay for and he had a good reputation to boot. Getting replies to questions prior to ordering was easy. When I applied for financing, I had a problem with my credit being reported incorrectly and was denied from BMWFS. From that point on, responses dried up, and finally disappeared. I wasn't worth the effort.

Applied with Greg knowing the same credit issue was still on the report. He found a workaround by haggling with BMWFS until the credit agencies got it fixed, a backup plan in case it took too long before the report was corrected. The only problem was they moved EOP for the 335d back to August and then I couldn't get an allocation. If I had went with him first, I could have gotten my D. Nothing changed in my status, he just put forth the effort. Much more effort combined with a lower price = Value.

All this is posted based on my reading this forum daily for the last year and my own personal experience with him fighting for me when others bailed. I have not even ordered a car yet, waiting on the MY13 guide to hit. But I will guarantee you one thing: Greg will get my mini, my referrals, and every BMW I purchase or lease until he stops selling them.

In regards to the 1M attacks, I'm pretty sure that wasn't his call unless he's been secretly promoted to dealer principal. It sounds like his dealership wants to make big money on the big ones, and sell the common cars for volume. It also sounds like other dealerships wants to make a higher profit on the common cars and reserve the big ones for those who have loyalty. Both are legitimate strategies and he shouldn't be berated like it was his call. Every franchised center is entitled to sell their alloted cars for whatever they want, how they want. Some centers screw the small buyer x 100. Some centers screw the big buyer X 1.


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## eddie33081 (May 15, 2006)

Greg has always seemed accessible and honest in his postings here and has contributed well to the community. 

Seems that the forum sponsors should settle any rules/etiquette that they would like each other to follow via the PM system as I do not think it makes anyone look good to the thousands of members /customers here.


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## JustinTJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Pelucida said:


> Funny to happen upon this thread. I'm actually in a similar situation as the OP. I picked up a 528 in November for 900 over invoice, but now my wife wants the new 3er. Being that I am in South Florida is it realistic to expect $700 over invoice for a 328 here also (including MACO and training)? Are the prices you guys are quoting also for European Delivery or just US deliveries.


Invoice doesn't include MACO or Training. So invoice + MACO + Training + Profit.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Pelucida said:


> Funny to happen upon this thread. I'm actually in a similar situation as the OP. I picked up a 528 in November for 900 over invoice, but now my wife wants the new 3er. Being that I am in South Florida is it realistic to expect $700 over invoice for a 328 here also (including MACO and training)? Are the prices you guys are quoting also for European Delivery or just US deliveries.


It really depends on the center. I can only speculate that you will be in that range with a local center for U.S. delivery. ED doesn't have MACO or training fees added.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

JustinTJ said:


> The one thing about price oriented buyers, is that they are price oriented buyers. They will come back, especially when they get a low price plus the excellent service, problem solving, and quick replies that Greg is famous for. I will guarantee one thing, and one thing only. Greg gets repeat business. Search this forum by just his name and you'll see a ton of positive posts, and I have yet to see a negative.
> 
> I've read posts where he fixes problems created by other local BMW centers and saves EDs for people who originally didn't even order from him. I've read posts where he has made numerous phone calls and emails in order to get delivery options changed when life happens.
> 
> ...


Greg deserves many kudos no doubt. I believe he's invaluable to the forum and to the BMW family. And thankfully, there are others on this forum and off the forum that are praiseworthy.

I think in respect to your unique situation, I'm not sure if enough time was allowed to elapse before the credit agencies reported a correction in order to reflect an approval which would have been applicable to any center. Nonetheless, it's unfortunate that you weren't able to get this put through in the first place being that the same call would've been made to any other center regardless of the effort put forth until the credit issue was resolved and when it was, time expired already on the D.

With respect to my 1M comment, it was not an attack nor was I berating _him_ for it. :thumbdwn: It's a statement of fact as an example that centers can sell their cars for whatever they want and can get based on _availability_. Back in 2000, it was pretty commonplace for M cars to be sold for thousands over MSRP. This model was a unique situation and it was his management's decision to place a huge mark up on that car. If a center across town was selling for MSRP, so what? This is what they felt like the market commanded. Privately, I hope Greg was the sales person that sold it or other 1Ms for high grosses. Centers have varying strategies in order to achieve maximum profitability and if a model that's rare enough to make a home run on helps the bottom line, then that center will make it happen. But that's exception to the rule.


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## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

JustinTJ said:


> Invoice doesn't include MACO or Training. So invoice + MACO + Training + Profit.


Greg said in his post #2 that his quote for invoice plus was inclusive of MACO and training.


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## gokro (Apr 5, 2012)

*not to get in between the war of the dealers, but*

Hi Everyone,

saw this post/war and figured i'd chime in since i'm pretty much in the same boat.

i have several questions which i hope you can help me with...

i placed a special order on a 2012 335i Coupe, there is a cash allowance on it but the dealer is telling me that it can't be locked in and the car may arrive end of April or beginning of May (at which point there may be no cash allowance). So according to the dealer he can lock in the MF rate and the residual but can't lock in the allowance, is that true?

also can anyone provide April's money factor and residual for top tier credit, 36months/10k per year?

does the super elite level get a discounted rate, meaning should the rate be different from that of elite or others in the top tier?

i keep seeing people mention 2 months free worth of payments, would that apply to this car?

is there a holdback for a special order car and should that be a part of my negotiation?

the lease numbers i have so far are:

MSRP: $51,646
MF: .0020 (i think it should be lower but the dealer says, and i quote: "I need to make some money on this deal")
Residual: 64%
Invoice as per BMWConfig: $47,705
Sale price: $48,300 minus $1,000 Cash allowance = $47,300
Dealer fee: $600
Advertising fee: $200
Acquisition fee: 725

does this seem like a good deal or am i missing something?

thank you in advance!


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

You can lock rate and residual not the $ they are correct.


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## KlausT (Mar 1, 2012)

eddie33081 said:


> Greg has always seemed accessible and honest in his postings here and has contributed well to the community.
> 
> Seems that the forum sponsors should settle any rules/etiquette that they would like each other to follow via the PM system as I do not think it makes anyone look good to the thousands of members /customers here.


Agreed.

I have learned so much about BMW and how the relationship between AG, dealership, and customer works. This forum, and especially the contributions by the knowledgeable sponsors are amazing and I am thankful for this. The transparency and honest opinions provided in this forum make it so special and I really hope it will continue. NO other brand offers this to the community - it makes owning a BMW even more special.

And on the comment that Greg is in it just for the quick buck - I just don't believe it. So many people have had a great experience with him and I too have decided to order two ED for June through Greg so my family becomes a true BMW family. Greg has treated me perfectly so far and I feel that he went out of his way to make some special wishes I had possible. All that for a reasonable mark up. I couldn't be happier and expect the positive experience to continue through re-delivery and beyond. And that'll mean repeat business.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

gokro said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> saw this post/war and figured i'd chime in since i'm pretty much in the same boat.
> 
> ...


This is true. Spring credit cannot be locked.



gokro said:


> also can anyone provide April's money factor and residual for top tier credit, 36months/10k per year?
> 
> does the super elite level get a discounted rate, meaning should the rate be different from that of elite or others in the top tier?
> 
> i keep seeing people mention 2 months free worth of payments, would that apply to this car?


I haven't heard of any 2 payment program for the new models.

is there a holdback for a special order car and should that be a part of my negotiation?

the lease numbers i have so far are:

MSRP: $51,646
MF: .0020 (i think it should be lower but the dealer says, and i quote: "I need to make some money on this deal")
Residual: 64%
Invoice as per BMWConfig: $47,705
Sale price: $48,300 minus $1,000 Cash allowance = $47,300
Dealer fee: $600
Advertising fee: $200
Acquisition fee: 725

does this seem like a good deal or am i missing something?

thank you in advance![/QUOTE]

Based on what you're paying, it sounds like you thought it was fair enough to put a deposit down and order it. Sounds fair enough to me. I mean, I'm not sure they'll be open to any further negotiation being that you agreed to the terms. Plus, I don't think you'd be open to further negotiation if they wanted to raise the price on you either.


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## BlackBerryCubed (Dec 5, 2007)

eddie33081 said:


> Greg has always seemed accessible and honest in his postings here and has contributed well to the community.
> 
> Seems that the forum sponsors should settle any rules/etiquette that they would like each other to follow via the PM system as I do not think it makes anyone look good to the thousands of members /customers here.


I agree.

Greg is ALWAYS the fastest to respond and 99% of the time the best deal available. I do not see a problem in him giving an opinion about what the price of the car should be.

Seems like other "sponsors" are not happy with the thought of not be able to squeeze more profit out of a limited supply car.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

eddie33081 said:


> Greg has always seemed accessible and honest in his postings here and has contributed well to the community.
> 
> Seems that the forum sponsors should settle any rules/etiquette that they would like each other to follow via the PM system as I do not think it makes anyone look good to the thousands of members /customers here.


I agree with your first comment.

On your second comment, I think it's fair to discuss this openly and freely. It's Ask a Dealer afterall. I'm not trying to look good or make Greg look bad or the other way around. Trust me, Greg has enough compliments going around that it makes you wonder if he walks on water!

Still, it's one thing for forum members to say they've been shopping around and getting this kind of pricing and quite another when a dealer comes on here and says what everybody should pay over invoice on a model (and not have one to offer at that price) when there's other centers who barely have one allocation and determine a different market based value because it's a hard to get model. It can set a precedent and can potentially make it frustrating for some prospective 335i buyers out there who browse the forums, read Greg's post, go to their local dealer and say I read I should be paying $900-$1,200 over invoice because Greg said so when that center only has one available and feels that it commands a higher value than what Greg is suggesting. It'd be like saying I think a $1,000 off MSRP for the new M5 is fair, but I don't have one and Greg does- but the client read that I can discount one for $1,000 off. Does that mean Greg or other centers that have allocation has to sell his for $1k off?

At the end of the day, it's water under the bridge. It's really no big deal. Let's move on. :angel: Heck, I don't even have an allocation to sell either, so I'm not complaining, but I'm sure some of Greg's local competitors aren't happy about it.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

BlackBerryCubed said:


> I agree.
> 
> Greg is ALWAYS the fastest to respond and 99% of the time the best deal available. I do not see a problem in him giving an opinion about what the price of the car should be.
> 
> Seems like other "sponsors" are not happy with the thought of not be able to squeeze more profit out of a limited supply car.


I didn't say I wasn't happy about it. :rofl: But those that read this thread and go to their center who have an allocation to order a 335i and not get the deal Greg's talking about might be a little salty.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Wow, I missed a juicy thread this afternoon....

*Sigh*

Lots to contemplate on so many levels in this particular discussion.

I always appreciate a lively/vibrant discussion on such sensitive topics, I just hope we can do so without regressing...


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## JustinTJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Weaselboy said:


> Greg said in his post #2 that his quote for invoice plus was inclusive of MACO and training.


Correct, but as a rule from BMW, invoice is not inclusive of those fees for US delivery. They are additional line item charges billed to the center and usually passed onto the consumer.

Another big benefit of ED!


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## Pelucida (Sep 20, 2011)

JustinTJ said:


> Invoice doesn't include MACO or Training. So invoice + MACO + Training + Profit.


I thought Greg said in his previous quote that the $700 is inclusive of MACO and TSF. So just to be certain once again, when you guys (dealers) are throwing figures around you are only talking about US deliveries? I'm just trying to get an idea of the market before I walk into the dealership, and if they don't go around $700 over I will look out of state (beyond Florida) for a $700 over ED deal. Does anyone in the country do base MF and Aq with profit in this range on EDs?


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## Ty Vil (Dec 19, 2002)

I have a hard time believing all the "Greg Fan Boy" posts in this thread were completely unsolicited...


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## JustinTJ (Jun 1, 2011)

adrian's bmw said:


> I didn't say I wasn't happy about it. :rofl: But those that read this thread and go to their center who have an allocation to order a 335i and not get the deal Greg's talking about might be a little salty.


I will say this in defense of all CAs. I couldn't do it, people have gotten really cheap, fighting for a few hundred bucks difference, spending hours to save $300. It reminds me of the extreme couponing show. They'd be better off working a few hours than spending 40 hours jumping through hoops.


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

JustinTJ said:


> I will say this in defense of all CAs. I couldn't do it, people have gotten really cheap, fighting for a few hundred bucks difference, spending hours to save $300. It reminds me of the extreme couponing show. They'd be better off working a few hours than spending 40 hours jumping through hoops.


Amen. Kudos to all you SAs for sharing this info with the community of BMW owners/buyers. Muchos gracias.


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## gokro (Apr 5, 2012)

adrian- the question wasn't whether i thought it was a good deal, but rather if it was a good deal...

as far as the deposit, in florida can i pull out of the deal if the car doesn't get here in time, or for whatever reason and get my deposit back?

also can anyone provide April's money factor and residual for top tier credit, 36months/10k per year?

does the super elite level get a discounted rate, meaning should the rate be different from that of elite or others in the top tier?

thanks


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

gokro said:


> adrian- the question wasn't whether i thought it was a good deal, but rather if it was a good deal...
> 
> as far as the deposit, in florida can i pull out of the deal if the car doesn't get here in time, or for whatever reason and get my deposit back?
> 
> ...


gokro, the bottom line is that you have to feel it's a good deal. Anybody on here can say you could get a better deal. It's all subjective. There's _always_ a better deal out there. You just have to invest the time to get it. But you've invested enough time on your own and the client advisor's time who earned your business that it's seems like a fair deal all around. 
Yes, I suppose you could get your deposit back, but how fair is that to the center who special ordered this car for you? What if they don't sell it for 90 days and have to pay floor plan interest because it's stuck on the lot? Yes, I understand that it's cutting it close for the rebate, but that's a call you both made and you both need a back up plan and work that out.


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## johntchow (Jun 25, 2004)

you forgot sterling bmw :thumbup:



[email protected] BMW said:


> To Ty and Adrian,
> I was giving an example of what I THINK ought would be a fair price for an ORDER of a 335 for US delivery on a order based on California sales market.... personally I have not 1 US car, sold OR ordered. Just so you guys understand the S. CA market and competition I can list at least 3 BMW centers in CA that have already sold 328's for invoice or below.. as I have the written quotes, I passed on those counter offers...i.e. I was around $700 over on a 328 and lost 3 sales!. Please keep in mind as Adrian said... there are large allocations of 328's.. and in a 50 mile or so radius there are well.. let me name all the centers, off the top of my head.... RUSNAK BMW, STEVE THOMAS BMW, BOB SMITH BMW, CENTER BMW, CENTURY WEST BMW, PACIFIC BMW, BMW OF MONROVIA, NEW CENTURY BMW, MC KENNA BMW, SHELLY BMW, NICK ALEXANDER BMW, SANTA MONICA BMW, S. BAY BMW, VALENCIA BMW, CREVIER BMW, IRVINE BMW and SHELLY BMW. And Adrian obviously you checked DCS and as you can see we have one 335. As of now I can't do 335 business as I have no cars to sell. For the record It's just my opinion in response to OP first comment.. please feel free to chime in with your comments.. I welcome any conversation.


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## 108598 (Feb 5, 2008)

adrian's bmw said:


> I agree with your first comment.
> 
> On your second comment, I think it's fair to discuss this openly and freely. It's Ask a Dealer afterall. I'm not trying to look good or make Greg look bad or the other way around. Trust me, Greg has enough compliments going around that it makes you wonder if he walks on water!
> 
> ...


Thanks for my 335i allocation :thumbup:Loving the car!!!!


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## schnell525 (Feb 6, 2007)

if you're hunting for an F30, you might want to look at smaller dealers. the RWD models aren't moving due to our climate. no one wants a RWD model....BMW's run into the same issue as Audi. No one stocks non-quattro, or in this case non-xdrive models due to snow for the majority.

it's going to be a while before AWD models come out. i can suggest that if someone is looking to do a deal, look at some smaller centers along the great lakes. the areas get snow are not moving RWD models. first lake effect snow storm tells you why....

you guys that live in nices climes may find a better deal and work a deal on the shipping.

just my .02.


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## coldintake (Oct 18, 2002)

If a Socal dealer is offering 500-700 above inv... It may be worth a buyers time to look at + shipping the car. The marketplace is the US, not just the local city/county. You've got to be competitive to stay on top and from what I've seen, people will pay a bit more if you deliver quality service.


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## gator15 (Jan 6, 2012)

Ty Vil said:


> I'm in agreement with Adrian 100%.
> 
> I understand your position on 328's - though I do not agree with it. Perhaps it's time for your manager to enroll you in the all day instructor led class "Selling Value." I believe it may have some benefit for you as you seem very focused on price and not building relationships for return customers... Adrian/Jon and I have many happy customers (from these forums) who will return to us many times over for the experience we provide; not because we are the "cheapest/fastest thrill around."


In defense of Greg, I am a current customer of his and will continue to be. He has provided me with an amazing sales experience. The other day while in my bank, I was hassled by the branch manager to apply for a credit card. When I got in my car, I smiled, thinking that I was hassled more by my bank than my car dealer. Greg has provided me with the smoothest and easiest car purchase I have ever experienced. So please do not disparage his selling abilities before you have talked to his customers. Also, I am not the only one, as many members here routinely praise him.


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## NASA43 (Jul 19, 2003)

adrian's bmw said:


> Heck, I don't even have an allocation to sell either, so I'm not complaining, but I'm sure some of Greg's local competitors aren't happy about it.


Just wondering, how come no one has 335i allocations? Is supply being limited or are they just selling so quickly?


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## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

JustinTJ said:


> Correct, but as a rule from BMW, invoice is not inclusive of those fees for US delivery. They are additional line item charges billed to the center and usually passed onto the consumer.
> 
> Another big benefit of ED!


I understand that, but the poster's question was do these invoice plus deals often discussed here include MACO and training. It appears at least in this case with Greg those fees are included. Others deals mentioned here do not specify either way, so it makes it difficult to judge a deal.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

NASA43 said:


> Just wondering, how come no one has 335i allocations? Is supply being limited or are they just selling so quickly?


I'm not sure why, but everyone is getting maybe one or two at most. But as soon as they get allocated, they get spoken for.


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## Weaselboy (Jul 7, 2002)

adrian's bmw said:


> I'm not sure why, but everyone is getting maybe one or two at most. But as soon as they get allocated, they get spoken for.


This seems to be the case all over. My dealer got one allocation in February (that I snagged... just got off the ship yesterday), zero in March and one in April.

I was hoping someone here would have some insight into why this is happening?

Is it an engine shortage issue? Are 2012 535i models similarly constrained?


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## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

The LA/SoCal market is an entirely different animal then the rest of the country. Its a dog eat dog world here...but just throwing out a figure and saying that IS the market for the rest of the country is totally unrealistic and unfair. No different than Northeast dealers getting big $$$ for an AWD model and we can't give one away. 

Everybody just needs to use common sense and best judgement in determining if they have already received a fair deal AND how far are you really willing to go to pursue the imaginary best deal.


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## iwantone (Jun 2, 2005)

I find it hard to believe that the amount over invoice has become such a big issue. Its been known for a very long time that the average $ over invoice for most cars is in the $500-750 range with most B'fest sponsors. In Gregs support and from a buyers perspective, I think $500-$750 is very fair for the 328i considering its a brand new model. For the 335, $900-$1200 is also very fair as the car is still very hard to come by. I leased a car from BMW through Greg a while ago and was extremely happy with the transaction.

See my experience below:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=600847

Also, when I was looking, I had B'fest sponsors here who declined my business as I was looking for an aggressive deal. End of the day I got a great deal and Greg got my current deal and will get all my future business.

Greg, I think you made a fair statement. If anything at all, you should be very proud of the fact that you are able to set pricing standards for the entire country with your statements. Cheers.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

JW_BMW said:


> The LA/SoCal market is an entirely different animal then the rest of the country. Its a dog eat dog world here...but just throwing out a figure and saying that IS the market for the rest of the country is totally unrealistic and unfair. No different than Northeast dealers getting big $$$ for an AWD model and we can't give one away.
> 
> Everybody just needs to use common sense and best judgement in determining if they have already received a fair deal AND how far are you really willing to go to pursue the imaginary best deal.


:stupid:

I think this is exactly what I've been trying to articulate and many here (especially anyone who's bought from Greg) seem to paint this as a personal attack and make it another "I love Greg, look what he did for me" post which is off topic anyway and doesn't pertain to the content of this thread. :tsk: Do you see Jon, founder of Bimmerfest, or others doing the same thing ? No.

So as a courtesy to centers locally, regionally, even nationally, I agree with JW- I think center personnel should show some restraint in throwing pricing out there in order to set a precedent especially if you don't have one available. It's not fair to those who have them available.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

iwantone said:


> Greg, I think you made a fair statement. If anything at all, you should be very proud of the fact that you are able to set pricing standards for the entire country with your statements. Cheers.


iwantone, why should one client advisor from one particular BMW center in one market set the precedent for pricing for a particular model * locally, regionally, or even nationally* when they don't have one to sell or even if they had *one* to sell? Is that fair? Silly example, but you drive down the street, there's three gas stations- one has a sign at $4.29 a gallon, another at $4.25 a gallon, and one at $3.50 a gallon, but the station at $3.50 has no gas. Is it fair for the other centers to sell their gas at $3.50 a gallon just because the guy with no gas has a sign up for $3.50?


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## eddie33081 (May 15, 2006)

adrian's bmw said:


> iwantone, why should one client advisor from one particular BMW center in one market set the precedent for pricing for a particular model * locally, regionally, or even nationally* when they don't have one to sell or even if they had *one* to sell? Is that fair? Silly example, but you drive down the street, there's three gas stations- one has a sign at $4.29 a gallon, another at $4.25 a gallon, and one at $3.50 a gallon, but the station at $3.50 has no gas. Is it fair for the other centers to sell their gas at $3.50 a gallon just because the guy with no gas has a sign up for $3.50?


I just dont see how his statement on pricing affects you. If you go to the gas station and the price is 3.50 with no gas, then you will go to the station that is 4.25 as it really is the best price. At the end of the day it is supply and demand. The supply of 3.50 gas was not available so the buyer bought it for the next best price at 4.25. Either way you were the next best price/service.

Now if the buyer comes to you and says he heard the car was 1000 over invoice and you say sorry but with the low allocations I can only sell it at 2000 over invoice and that is your best offer. The buyer will shop around and will still come back to you as he will see that 2000 over invoice for this car is actually a good price for the area.

The reason why people saying that Greg is a good guy is on topic because you had gone off topic by saying he has no right to give out prices to people not in his region which makes it seem like he is breaking some type of "dealer code". The topic was only about what the OP had asked originally which is whether they were getting a good deal and if they could do better.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

eddie33081 said:


> I just dont see how his statement on pricing affects you. If you go to the gas station and the price is 3.50 with no gas, then you will go to the station that is 4.25 as it is the really is the best price. At the end of the day it was supply and demand. The supply of 3.50 gas was not available so the buyer bought it for the next best price at 4.25. Either way you were the next best price/service.
> 
> Now if the buyer comes to you and says he heard the car was 1000 over invoice and you say sorry but with the low allocations I can only sell it at 2000 over invoice and that is your best offer. The buyer will shop around and will still come back to you as he will see that 2000 over invoice for this car is actually a good price for the area.
> 
> The reason why people saying that Greg is a good guy is on topic because you had gone off topic by saying he has no right to give out prices to people not in his region which makes it seem like he is breaking some type of "dealer code". The topic was only about what the OP had asked originally which is whether they were getting a good deal and if they could do better.


Sure it affects me. It affects all of us really. And you've helped helped articulate my point- the buyer comes to me, Jon at BMW of Santa Barbara, Ivan at BMW of Bloomfield, or Irv Robinson at Motorwerks, for example: we have 335i's in stock and on order, but Greg doesn't have one in stock or on order- is it fair for him to set the baseline for pricing on this particular model? This has nothing to do with his level of service, or Jon's, or mine, or anyone else's. I never said he has no right to give out pricing. If you read my post, I casually said, if you have allocations and availability to support that pricing opinion, that's one thing, but he doesn't, so unless he's speaking for South Bay BMW, Long Beach BMW, or even Vista BMW in Florida, why should he dictate what pricing should be? It's a simple question. He gave a sufficient response and said he was expressing his opinion, but that still leaves it open that just because he has the opinion that he feels that $900-$1200 were fair, does it mean that it's fair for everyone else who barely has one in stock or on order? There's no "dealer code", but there is common courtesy for prospective buyers, fellow sponsors, and other dealers of setting expectations. IMO, it would've been better to say that he's seen 328i sedans go for that range over invoice, but since 335i sedans are scarce, expect to pay much more and leave it at that. :thumbup:


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

adrian's bmw said:


> There's no "dealer code", but there is common courtesy for prospective buyers, fellow sponsors, and other dealers of setting expectations.


I thought there was? I'm not sure if it was true or common practice, but don't Sales Managers get to see the prices of cars being sold at other dealerships in the area? And BMW sometimes takes a dim view of those dealers who sell too low, since it undermines the brand, viability of dealerships etc., then they get allocation cuts as a pseudo penalty? Sort of BMW's way of influencing pricing, keeping the field profitable, without breaking the law? It also stops the buyers who come in and say XYZ dealer down the road will sell it for $x - and the dealership knows it's a bluff since they have the area pricing report.

Will Greg follow in the path of BMW? He's built his brand, and now it's time to capitalize a bit more on it. And I've heard he's got expensive tastes - he drives a loaded 2012 750 .


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## gator15 (Jan 6, 2012)

adrian's bmw said:


> :stupid:
> 
> I think this is exactly what I've been trying to articulate and many here (especially anyone who's bought from Greg) seem to paint this as a personal attack and make it another "I love Greg, look what he did for me" post which is off topic anyway and doesn't pertain to the content of this thread. :tsk: Do you see Jon, founder of Bimmerfest, or others doing the same thing ? No.
> 
> So as a courtesy to centers locally, regionally, even nationally, I agree with JW- I think center personnel should show some restraint in throwing pricing out there in order to set a precedent especially if you don't have one available. It's not fair to those who have them available.


I think that the reason why so many people are posting "I love Greg" posts is because there was a certain post that made uncalled for personal attacks on him. The post was pretty nasty and unwarranted. Adrian, I completely respect your opinion and your posts, as you have remained professional. However, when others lob personal attacks, I think people will stand up and say something, especially the many customers that Greg has made very happy. I do not think that this is a place to attack someone on how they do their job. They can send a private message/email or pick up the phone and call him if they have a problem with him. I agree, this post has gone way off topic. However, the personal attack was off topic, and once it was made, I found it appropriate to respond.

I also understand your frustration with setting pricing standards. The internet has changed everything and consumers now have unprecedented control over purchases. Whether this is a good or bad thing is obviously debatable and probably depends on which side of the purchase you are on. The car industry is not in a vacuum and just about every other consumer industry is experiencing the same frustrations that you are. However, this is the capitalist system that we live in and the internet has us operating in an almost pure competitive market. In a system such as this one where identical products are offered for different prices, the guy that sells the product for the lowest price will win, unless there is some added value that someone can add for the higher price. Greg did not create this phenomena, he has been forced to adapt to it. It is unfair to blame him for working in the system that has come to fruition.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

There are so many different issues enmeshed in this discussion. It is tough for me to make a personal comment because I have a dual role, one representing the site where both Greg and Adrian are my customers, and one in which I am actually in direct competition with Greg. Both Adrian and Greg have been helping many clients on my site, and I appreciate their supporting the community. I know that Adrian has been helping buyers here on Bimmerfest for 9 years or so, and Greg for about 1.5. Even though Greg has had an overwhelming number of glowing reviews/feedback threads over the last year, I have no doubt that Adrian's customers are equally satisfied as Greg's. I suppose that he (Adrian) chooses not to ask his customers to make these posts; it's just a different style of marketing -- as is posting comments about pricing. I do know that as a result of Greg's approach to pricing, I've had to cut my own gross profit margins in order to be competitive, and just hope that sooner or later I will sell enough units to make up the difference with volume bonuses. I understand the laws of economics, and I do appreciate the idea that in a competitive free market, the customer wins, and I support that. I think the problem here is really that Greg was suggesting what someone should pay in another market (where different market forces / supply and demand are in play), and that it what Adrian is upset by. I am trying not to take sides, but in a rhetorical way, is it truly helpful to the prospective buyer to have unrealistic expectations? I suspect not...

The tough part for myself as an administrator is that we have never established clear guidelines about this in our Terms of Use or Advertising Agreements. There are no set "Best Practices" or Rules of Etiquette since we've never faced this problem before. Recently there was a site sponsor who was advertising a certain "X over invoice" on their user signature, and that was obviously not ok, and we established a new rule about that. This is a little different, though, since it comes in the context of a member's thread. I have a feeling that if Greg knew the stir it would have caused, that he probably wouldn't have posted that comment. All of this brings up the larger issue -- namely that we have a large community here with many members and many sponsors, and we all have to find a way to get along. We all know that poop happens, and when it does, sometimes we just have to alter our course a few degrees...


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## extremeromance (Sep 14, 2010)

I have to agree with Adrians point of view on how the price in one market doesn't reflect whats going on everywhere else, especially when compared to the Socal market, however in Gregs defense the poster that started a personal attack on him was uncalled for. I guess that attack was purely out of frustration but uncalled for nonetheless. 

Many sponsors here are in direct competition with each other so I'm sure sometimes things can get a little heated but at the end of the day all the services that the sponsors provide to this site are invaluable.


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## iwantone (Jun 2, 2005)

eddie33081 said:


> i just dont see how his statement on pricing affects you. If you go to the gas station and the price is 3.50 with no gas, then you will go to the station that is 4.25 as it really is the best price. At the end of the day it is supply and demand. The supply of 3.50 gas was not available so the buyer bought it for the next best price at 4.25. Either way you were the next best price/service.
> 
> Now if the buyer comes to you and says he heard the car was 1000 over invoice and you say sorry but with the low allocations i can only sell it at 2000 over invoice and that is your best offer. The buyer will shop around and will still come back to you as he will see that 2000 over invoice for this car is actually a good price for the area.
> 
> The reason why people saying that greg is a good guy is on topic because you had gone off topic by saying he has no right to give out prices to people not in his region which makes it seem like he is breaking some type of "dealer code". The topic was only about what the op had asked originally which is whether they were getting a good deal and if they could do better.


+1


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## jims2321 (Oct 3, 2010)

So, back to the really important question :angel:

Why are the new F30 335i in such short supply, and is there a light at the end of the tunnel where supply will start to catch up with demand? Honestly if this issue is going to drag out for a long time, I wonder how many potential sales will walk away, including me. I have no interest in the 328i. If when I get around to ordering my 335i its still supply bound, I will probably just pass and look for something else.

Jim


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

jims2321 said:


> So, back to the really important question :angel:
> 
> Why are the new F30 335i in such short supply, and is there a light at the end of the tunnel where supply will start to catch up with demand?


How bad is it? It sounds like folks are getting May allocations? Perhaps June? It's just a month or two more than any other ordered car, generallyl speaking. The key is to get an order in early I think. If you want an F30, which you will be enjoying for years, for the sake of just a month or two?


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## jims2321 (Oct 3, 2010)

Apparently, pretty bad as note in the above postings. Sounds like most dealers are only getting 1/month, maybe 2 and some months 0.

This means that in my area Central Florida, the odds of test driving a F30 335i are pretty slim, and I would never buy a car without test driving that model. So yeah its pretty big issue. I guess the question is after the model year flips to 2013, will supply pick up.

Jim


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Why don't you call the local dealerships and see who has a demo?

The other option is to show up for the Drive for Team USA event. They should have plenty of cars there.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Production will increase with July august 
production..... Significantly


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## jims2321 (Oct 3, 2010)

Greg,

Thanks. Good to know that it was probably due to the short F30 2012 model year, and not a production issue. I look forward to getting back into a BMW after almost 20 years.

Jim


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## peace2peep (Dec 7, 2011)

So then allocations limits won't allow ED either? 

Hmmm...anyway I grabbed my popcorn for this thread! Dealer calling out another dealer for voicing an OPINION on a buyers question thread...ridiculous! I guess the blog site is no place for opinions or personal points. I just can't think of a time that I saw men fight over something they don't have anyway. 

Seriously gentlemen, we enjoy a PREMIUM product and shouldn't have to hear or read these inflammations if you want to continue our business. I personally do not like drama in my business dealings...but on a blog, kinds sad and entertaining at the same time. 

BTW Adrian, you didn't seems too calm and not caring as you later described. You seemed pretty ticked in your first post, otherwise, you wouldn't have written anything. You were miffed and that's cool, just don't throw a punch and then act like you were swatting at a mosquito. Greg, you are a naughty, naughty boy...drawing attention to your business by tantalizing us with thoughts of inexpensive purchases, I now send you to CA purgatory for doing your job! 

This is fun! I feel like Judge Joe Brown right now! I love all of ya! Peace!


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