# DEF and free (?) maintenance



## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

BMWNA confirmed to me that 

- the car when new comes with full urea system (a little more than 6 gallons)
- during the oil service refill of only 2.5 gallons is covered under free maintenance program

Taking into consideration that BMW claims that the car is under the free maintenance program, something is wrong. 

I got the "NO START" message at approx. 10,5k miles, i.e. the car burned over 5 gallons of DEF. If they refill only 2.5 gallons it means either that the car burns two times more than it should (I think this is not the case) or they are lying that the car is under free maintenance program.

Anybody was complaining about this to BMW?


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## EYE4SPEED (Apr 19, 2010)

I would suggest working with the same service writer each time and make sure he/she is accommodating. If you bought your car from that dealer, they may be more inclined to top both of your tanks off. If you didn't buy it there, even though the service is suppose to be the same, you might not get the same treatment.


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## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

Good advise, but my point is a little bit different. It is what BMWNA should cover under the free maintenance plan? I do not want to be treated as an idiot.

Urea system capacity is enough to be maintenance free between the oil services - I do not want to care about DEF between the services.


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## CrazyINP (Dec 2, 2005)

You can always email BMWNA and ask them. I have found the dealer makes things up sometimes.


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## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

CrazyINP said:


> You can always email BMWNA and ask them. I have found the dealer makes things up sometimes.


as I wrote

"BMWNA confirmed to me that

- the car when new comes with full urea system (a little more than 6 gallons)
- during the oil service refill of only 2.5 gallons is covered under free maintenance program"


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

In a little more than 2 years (and a little less than 30K miles) I never got a "low DEF" warning.Most of my miles were Interstate miles...I've read that that can make a difference.


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## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

As far as I know BMW changed the guidelines - not long time ago they were draining the DEF tanks and refilling them full during the oil service

if they were still doing that I would not be annoyed

my miles are 75% Interstate - 25 MPG avg


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

kanar200 said:


> As far as I know BMW changed the guidelines - not long time ago they were draining the DEF tanks and refilling them full during the oil service
> 
> if they were still doing that I would not be annoyed
> 
> my miles are 75% Interstate - 25 MPG avg


Yes but after they got off the policy of fulling draining them, they went to a policy of topping them off. Sounds to me that the response you got sounds like they do not do the topping them off any more.


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## ductman (Dec 17, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> Yes but after they got off the policy of fulling draining them, they went to a policy of topping them off. Sounds to me that the response you got sounds like they do not do the topping them off any more.


I have about 7k on my 2011 X5, picked up 2.5 gallons of DEF on sale at 11.99, topped my tank even though the light was not on, my point is that if I needed DEF between maintenance
I would just add it my self, it took me only about 15-20 minutes to add 2.5 gallons rather than spending hours at the dealership waiting for them to do it, if I needed my oil topped off, surely I wouldn't go to the dealership either for that, I would rather " save" my visits for when I really need a service rather than a service I could easily do myself, should BMW completely fill the tank, yes, but my point is I have other issues in life that require my time rather than DEF.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

ductman said:


> I have about 7k on my 2011 X5, picked up 2.5 gallons of DEF on sale at 11.99, topped my tank even though the light was not on, my point is that if I needed DEF between maintenance
> I would just add it my self, it took me only about 15-20 minutes to add 2.5 gallons rather than spending hours at the dealership waiting for them to do it, if I needed my oil topped off, surely I wouldn't go to the dealership either for that, I would rather " save" my visits for when I really need a service rather than a service I could easily do myself, should BMW completely fill the tank, yes, but my point is I have other issues in life that require my time rather than DEF.


The problem as I see it though is at service they are(or were if the first post is correct) suppose to top off the tanks completely. Completely topped off tanks should never result in the vehicle needing more DEF between service dates. Which means if in between service dates someone needs to add fluid then something is not right with the car. It means either the vehicle is not transferring between its two pumps so a clogged valve(we have seen many examples of this on here), it has a leak(we have seen at least one example of this on here), or the dealer did not do what they were supposed to do at the time of service(we have seen what appears to be a LOT of examples of this on here). If it were the last reason then yeah I'd just top it off myself over dealing with waiting on the dealership unless the car had to go in for some other service then I'd argue the point that they did not do their job right the first time.

When my car was low on oil I took it in. But it also was in for some other service, I simply told the guy "BTW it is low on oil" and while there they topped it off without a charge. If the car had not needed to go in for something else, then I'd probably not done that although I'd still had to go to the dealer to buy the oil because to the best of my knowledge the local store does not have the correct oil for me to buy. Now days though I pass right buy the dealer twice a day, so stopping by there is actually more convenient than making it to an auto parts store.


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## kanar200 (Feb 15, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> Yes but after they got off the policy of fulling draining them, they went to a policy of topping them off. Sounds to me that the response you got sounds like they do not do the topping them off any more.


no, they do not top off the tanks - this is what I heard from dealer and from BMWNA

@ductman - I have also other issues in life than DEF. Therefore, I wanted BMW to take care about it during the oil service. This is what they were supposed to do. Their current solution is for 4-5k miles... This is not right

The reason they are doing this is pretty obvious to me. The reason why BMW owners agree with this is not.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

kanar200 said:


> no, they do not top off the tanks - this is what I heard from dealer and from BMWNA
> 
> @ductman - I have also other issues in life than DEF. Therefore, I wanted BMW to take care about it during the oil service. This is what they were supposed to do. Their current solution is for 4-5k miles... This is not right
> 
> The reason they are doing this is pretty obvious to me. The reason why BMW owners agree with this is not.


My oil was changed just 1-2 months ago and I recall looking at the paper work at the time and verifying the amount of DEF used and it was far more than 2.5 gallons. Now perhaps that is just a dealer decision or even a misscommunication to that dealer. Have you tried talk to more than one person at BMWNA? I have a hard time believing this is what they switched to given how cheap it is to buy the fluid.


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

I spoke with a high level product technology manager at bmwna. According to him, DEF is covered completely at regular service intervals. I think you got hosed and bmwna is trying not to out your dealer.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

OP: I don't understand why your dealer is being so cheap. It is not costly or difficult to fill both tanks. Although this is a minor issue in terms of cost, I agree with you that free maintenance should absolutely include filling the vehicle with DEF as often as it needs it.

I bought 5 gallons of DEF at the local Pilot Truck Stop at $2.79/gallon. I was curious to see how much DEF my car was using so at 5K miles, I topped off both tanks but could only add about 1/2 gallon. When I took the car in for the first service at 13K miles, I asked that both tanks be topped off. I can only assume they did as I did not check but I now have 19K miles and no DEF light.

Good luck with your issue.


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

How big are the tanks in our X5?


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

kanar200 said:


> as I wrote
> 
> "BMWNA confirmed to me that
> 
> ...


Kanar,

Perhaps that is what they told you but that makes no sense. The vast majority of us get our DEF tanks refilled at each scheduled oil service interval of approx 13k miles. I don't know how many gallons of DEF that takes, but I did get the low level warning just prior to my last service, so I would assume very near to a full refill of some 6 gallons of DEF. I was not charged for any DEF, nor have I been charged for any DEF now with alomost 36k miles on my vehicle.

That is "Maintenance Free".:thumbup:

That is what you should expect.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

I am in a similar spot,,, had took the car in for its first oil change 5k mi ago, ticket said they added DPF fluid, now I am getting the low DPF warning light car will not start in 800mii due to low reserve tank. Now if they truely topped off the tank 5k mi ago the reserve tank should not be empty already. I am a little annoyed that I need to go back to the dealer again for something that should have already been addressed.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

cssnms said:


> I am in a similar spot,,, had took the car in for its first oil change 5k mi ago, ticket said they added DPF fluid, now I am getting the low DPF warning light car will not start in 800mii due to low reserve tank. Now if they truely topped off the tank 5k mi ago the reserve tank should not be empty already. I am a little annoyed that I need to go back to the dealer again for something that should have already been addressed.


Could always be a clogged transfer pump. Someone on here said they just unclog it themself because it is easy to do. I don't think though that they ever posted up some instructions on how they did it.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> Could always be a clogged transfer pump. Someone on here said they just unclog it themself because it is easy to do. I don't think though that they ever posted up some instructions on how they did it.


Me thinks that would trigger an SES light/code, but then again maybe it manifests itself in the form of this warning. Me also thinks that if the pump were clogged it would not read as "low" but rather empty and thus trigger an SES light, unless of course the active tank has enough capacity to cover me for the next 1k miles.

Would love to see that DIY.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

cssnms said:


> Me thinks that would trigger an SES light/code, but then again maybe it manifests itself in the form of this warning. Me also thinks that if the pump were clogged it would not read as "low" but rather empty and thus trigger an SES light, unless of course the active tank has enough capacity to cover me for the next 1k miles.
> 
> Would love to see that DIY.


The descriptions I have read online when the problem happens do not agree with your thoughts. As I recall the valve/pump gets clogged due to the fluid crystalizing. This then causes the car to continue to run off the smaller tank until it gets to the point of having enough for 1k miles of driving. At that point you get the light about no start in 999 miles. You can go around 5-6k miles before this happens. Again though my comments are based on reading what other people said happened to them, so I could messed something up. I am not 100% sure if they said no SES for the clog but really don't remember them saying they had the light.


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