# Why does BMW prefer to loose clients and keep the run flats?



## John Caring (Apr 7, 2011)

Hello everybody,

I've been a car enthusiast and a BMW fan all my life. I'm presently a subscriber to several BMW magazines (BMW Car, Bimmer, Roundel) and I try to read all I can about my favorite carmaker. 

I'm trying to understand the stubbornness of BMW to remain the only manufacturer offering run-flat tires (mandatory, not even as an option) on their cars (for instance Honda used them on Honda and Acura models, but dropped them definitely in 2008). 

We know that every good feature or option introduced by a car manufacturer is adopted rapidly by the others, but guess what: nobody adopted the stupid run-flat tires (guess why ()

From what I've read here are some the features of these tires :
- they manage to provide an accentuated unconformable ride (especially on American and Canadian roads - hey, the biggest BMW market is the US not Germany with its Autobahn !).
- they wear very quickly (especially on the inside of the tire), and some drivers reported replacing them as much as 3 times a year. You can calculate the cost. Do not forget that they cost more than the regular ones.
- in the case of a puncture, the tire cannot be repaired (in most of the cases) and you have to replace them in pair of two (see four !) - as can be read in the last Roundel number. 

SO, I'm wondering what's the point of having them (other than getting rid of the spare tire), since when having a puncture you cannot repair or replace your tire everywhere, and it is a lot more pain in the a$$ compared to a regular tire that you change with the spare and get it done in the nearest garage!

I know a lot of people that have migrated to Audi and Mercedes because of these stupid run-flat tires on BMWs and I'm sure that there are o lot of other potential clients that BMW is loosing.

When it is time to replace my car I know that I'll have to look to cars with regular tires, that's sure!

Am I missing something here or it is a stupid thing (not even an option) that drives enthusiasts away from BMW. I don't think they don't know it but I think they refuse to listen. 

I have a great admiration for Germans and I think they make some of the best quality products in the world and they are the reference in the car industry that the others try to match or copy (especially in the mechanical field; their weak point has always been the electronics though ), but just don't tell a German that something manufactured in their country or by a German company is not good - he won't accept it and will ignore you (does this attitude sound familiar to you - ever heard of the fuel pump problems and recalls ?). 

What's you impression or experience! Can we all determine our favorite car maker to believe that listening to us can also be good for them ?

Best regards,

John


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

: popcorn:


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## CDirks (Jun 28, 2010)

tturedraider said:


> : popcorn:


I feel the same way.

I think the runflats are just something BMW uses to say that they're one step above the other companies. And while consumers can point out the blatant faults in their decision, I'm sure corporate will just shrug off our opinions.

If you don't like them, get them switched. That's all you can do, and after they're off that first time, you'll never have to deal with them again (until you purchase a new bimmer).

My roommate worked at a Firestone nearby and hated having to mount and dismount runflats. Nobody who is a car enthusiast likes them. While BMW may have the performance oriented pedigree, it's also the company finally planning on fwd vehicles, and using turbocharged engines anywhere possible. The game has changed.

I'll leave you with this: loose vs lose :eeps:


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## 02BMW530 (Nov 19, 2010)

Two things stuck out when I skimmed quickly:
1- BMW sells about 3 times more units in Europe then the US, especially in Germany. A quick google yielded the following table. 









2- if people switch to other car brands due to an aversion to run flat tires, they've been itching to switch for a while. People who buy BMWs will continue to do so, and anyone genuinely interested in one wouldn't let RFT change their mind.

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## too tall (Jul 10, 2010)

A spare wheel and tire weighs about 40 pounds, and a space saver weighs about 27 pounds, and takes up space. That is the main motivation for run flats. I have not heard of anyone replacing run flats three times a year and that is not typical. My wife's E90 needed the OEM Bridgestone run flats replaced before 20K miles and the second gen Continentals are much better. However, BMW did make the suspension a lot softer to work with the run flats. With a little suspension tuning and maybe third gen run flats, I think they could be a lot better. Plus, it does allow you to drive away from a flat in a dangerous area for changing a flat.

I am not a big fan of run flats, but I am beginning to appreciate them better.


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## damyankee (Apr 3, 2007)

There were some hints in the latest Roundel that there are run-flats available that are much superior from a performance, etc. standpoint. BMW uses el-cheapo versions produced in mass quantities for them, just for sale to the US.

I think the average BMW buyer is pretty clueless regarding what they are buying. They hear a 30 second sales pitch about the benefits of run-flats and that's all the thought they put into it. The complaints come from those on the "enthusiast" side; the ones who buy sport-package equipped cars and are able to discern the difference in driveability. This is not BMW's "bread & butter" anymore, and I think it's a pretty small segment of the market complaining very loudly over this.

BMW cares about cost & profitability 1st; "ultimate driving machine" 2nd. Unless run-flats start costing them profits, which I doubt, they will remain stubbornly committed to run-flats in the US. Same for no dip-sticks, batteries only BMW can change for $500, electronic gizmos that are obsolete before the warranty even runs out, and on and on and on.

If I were buying a new BMW, I'd have a set of regular rubber and an emergency spare waiting, and sell the new run-flats on e-bay. You will probably break even on the initial cost, then save in the long run by buying much less expensive tires less frequently. It's not worth getting all worked up over, IOW. So far BMW still makes cars I drool over, despite al this other [email protected]


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

I have had 4 BMWs and the 2007 is the first one that has no spare. As for concerns about a spare increasing the vehicle's mass, have you taken a good look at the E90? It's already too bloated. You think a spare is going to make any difference? BMW could ditch some of the technology and reduce the weight a bit.

It is criminal for any car manufacturer to handicap drivers by not providing a spare tire.


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## Bremen Ben (Sep 1, 2008)

02BMW530 said:


> Two things stuck out when I skimmed quickly:
> 1- BMW sells about 3 times more units in Europe then the US, especially in Germany. A quick google yielded the following table.
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting info. Obviously there is no evidence BMW is losing sale. I like the RFT on my car, I might be the minority in this thread, but I doubt I am the minority among the BMW owners judging from the sales figure.

I like the added peace of mind from the RFT knowing I don't have to stop in the middle of somewhere changing a tire in the event of a flat tire. Replacing the blown RFT is more expensive, but then again everything about BMW is more expensive compared to your average Chevy or Hyundai.

As for the ride, I honest can only detect very minor difference between my summer RFT's and my winter non-RFT's; the RFT's ride firmer by only a bit. But if I want a soft, floaty ride, I would have chosen a non SP model with the 17 inch wheel base setup.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

The RFT provides around 50 miles of protection. So what happens if you get a puncture in the middle of nowhere and the nearest BMW store according to your GPS is 78 miles away?


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

Is there any conclusive statistical evidence that BMW owners are leaving the brand because of run flats? Just because you do does not mean that, in general, people are. :dunno:

I would have stuck with the RFTs if there was an offering for an A/S tire in RFT format for my wheel setup. In fact, if one exists next time I buy tires, I will drop the go flats and get the spare out of my trunk.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Think of all the time-wasting potential of these RFT's. No spare. 50 miles of protection. BMW store may be further than 50 miles away and you are screwed (no pun intended)

or:

Lucky you-you have BMW Assist-so thy come and tow you 20-80 miles to a BMW store where they tell you the tire will be ordered and will be in the store in 2 weeks. All their loaners are out. Sorry.

Both scenarios easily avoided by providing all season tires and a spare and jack under the trunk. Get a flat. You are back on your way in a half hour.

I'm tired of hearing about the "increased mass" the spare and jack would add. The car is already over-weighted due to BMW cramming all that expensive advanced technology into their cars. So what's a few more pounds, especially when it is necessary/practical?


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## kashrahman (May 10, 2004)

*i'm in the minority*

probably but I like run-flats. I agree, having a full size (or even mini) spare would be nice -- extra piece of mind. But I really like the idea of not having to change a tire during an inconvenient/bad weather/unsafe area whatever. I haven't tried non-run-flats on the convertible, so I can't comment on ride quality. But I can tell you the wife barely notices the difference between her 7's summer run flats tires and winter blizzaks. I know, I know - heresy! But I think the majority of BMW owners (not enthusiasts) prefer runflats.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Somewhat OT but I think its relevant given that it effects the potential cost of switching to non-RFTs. If I am leasing and replace the RFTs with regular tires to do I need to have RFTs on the car when I turn it in?


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

The stock RFTs on my 550i Sport were terrible tires - poor ride, absolutely awful in the wet and really very little to recommend them other than some additional comfort in the unlikely event of a blowout. For me, changing the RFT's to a quality performance summer tire transformed the car - feel, grip, ride, handling, and road noise all improved noticably and tangibly. Ultimately, you pay your money and you make your choice. Changing to standard tires for me meant a significant improvement in enjoyment for what I considered to be a limited trade-off in terms of safety - a trade I was more than willing to make.


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## djfitter (Sep 12, 2007)

3ismagic# said:


> Somewhat OT but I think its relevant given that it effects the potential cost of switching to non-RFTs. If I am leasing and replace the RFTs with regular tires to do I need to have RFTs on the car when I turn it in?


Lease it with RFT's and you have to return it with RFT's.

dj


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## Bremen Ben (Sep 1, 2008)

If RFT gives me 50 miles of extra drivability in the event of a blowout, and thus enables me to get the tire replaced at a safer location and condition, then it's done its job. Maneuvering my car to the shoulder of a busy highway and trying to change a tire is not what I would consider a safer alternative.


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## 02BMW530 (Nov 19, 2010)

As a broke college student, a full size spare gives me the opportunity to replace a damaged tire at a time I choose. I can't imagine how stressful it is for some people who lease their cars and have since lost a lot of their income, who are now faced with the unexpected purchase of a $250 tire. 

The spare also lets me have an extra wheel. If my fiancé hits a curb or any other type of thing that only women can manage to do, I can keep a damaged (bent lip, etc) wheel simply as an emergency and use a reliable wheel full-time again. 

None of this is possible with RFTs. I do like the safety of and ability to ride on it to a safer location as stated above though. 


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

John Caring said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I've been a car enthusiast and a BMW fan all my life. I'm presently a subscriber to several BMW magazines (BMW Car, Bimmer, Roundel) and I try to read all I can about my favorite carmaker.
> 
> ...


Not sure what it means to "loose" clients but BMW is very much out there tech-wise and they feel that this is the way to go.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

The logic for runflats on my "d",as well as on my Bluetec,is that the need for a DEF tank...which they placed under the trunk...makes space for a donut impossible.Oh well!


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

02BMW530 said:


> As a broke college student, a full size spare gives me the opportunity to replace a damaged tire at a time I choose. I can't imagine how stressful it is for some people who lease their cars and have since lost a lot of their income, who are now faced with the unexpected purchase of a $250 tire.
> 
> The spare also lets me have an extra wheel. If my fiancé hits a curb or any other type of thing that only women can manage to do, I can keep a damaged (bent lip, etc) wheel simply as an emergency and use a reliable wheel full-time again.
> 
> ...


Dude, no car manufacturer provides a full size wheel and tire as a spare anymore and they haven't for years and years and years. At best, for a passenger car, you will get a temporary spare that you are not supposed to drive at more than 50 mph and 150 miles.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

djfitter said:


> Lease it with RFT's and you have to return it with RFT's.
> 
> dj


Take off the RFTs, put on normal tires and put the RFTs in the garage. When it comes time, swap them again.


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## 02BMW530 (Nov 19, 2010)

tturedraider said:


> Dude, no car manufacturer provides a full size wheel and tire as a spare anymore and they haven't for years and years and years. At best, for a passenger car, you will get a temporary spare that you are not supposed to drive at more than 50 mph and 150 miles.


Both my cars have one. Full size, matching identical wheel. My cars not from "years and years and years ago" either, a 2002 530 (5s had full size spares until at least 2003, but I believe the E60s have them as well) and a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee, which still have them to this day.

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## too tall (Jul 10, 2010)

My 2005 has a full size alloy wheel and tire. My recollection is that one of the first car "years ago" with run flats was a Corvette, but I suspect BMW is manufacturing more cars with run flats than anyone else.


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## mnzhp (Jan 6, 2010)

Funny - E46 M3's have no spare and no run flats - they have the sealant / inflator kit. If it works on thousands of E46 M3's, why not on all Bimmers? It elminates the ability to repair the flat, but no special tires needed, no jack, no spare.


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## 02BMW530 (Nov 19, 2010)

mnzhp said:


> Funny - E46 M3's have no spare and no run flats - they have the sealant / inflator kit. If it works on thousands of E46 M3's, why not on all Bimmers? It elminates the ability to repair the flat, but no special tires needed, no jack, no spare.


That's likely the worst of the possibilities

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## darbyogill (Jan 16, 2011)

John Caring said:


> I know a lot of people that have migrated to Audi and Mercedes because of these stupid run-flat tires on BMWs and I'm sure that there are o lot of other potential clients that BMW is loosing.


BMW Group Sells More Vehicles In March Than Ever Before


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

mnzhp said:


> Funny - E46 M3's have no spare and no run flats - they have the sealant / inflator kit. If it works on thousands of E46 M3's, why not on all Bimmers? It elminates the ability to repair the flat, but no special tires needed, no jack, no spare.


As I mentioned near the beginning of this thread, BMW went to RFTs because they consider them to be a safer tire than GRTs. When you're tooling down the autobahn (or a U.S. interstate) at high speed it is much safer to have an RFT if you encounter a blowout situation.

Contrary to a lot of information that dealers spout, a slow leak in an RFT can be safely repaired. The key is not to drive on it with very low or no air pressure. Just as you would do with a GFT, keep it aired up with a few extra PSI and take it to your favorite tire shop and have it patched from within. Patches are always a better choice than plugs, if you don't mind a little more time and effort to get it done.

btw - Discount/America's Tire will repair RFTs. Or if they have been driven too long on low pressure (or no pressure) they tell you the tire cannot be repaired, because they can see from the inside of the sidewall whether it has been degraded.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Why is the sky blue? Who knows why BMW does what it does? All I know is that BMW is moving away from enthusiasts' wishes in the decisions it makes.


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## greengoose (Dec 17, 2010)

damyankee said:


> I think the average BMW buyer is pretty clueless regarding what they are buying. They hear a 30 second sales pitch about the benefits of run-flats and that's all the thought they put into it. The complaints come from those on the "enthusiast" side; the ones who buy sport-package equipped cars and are able to discern the difference in driveability. This is not BMW's "bread & butter" anymore, and I think it's a pretty small segment of the market complaining very loudly over this.


Very key point made right here. A very large proportion of current BMW buyers are purchasing their car for it's looks and prestige (not necessarily it's performance). Many are busy working professionals and are very easily sold on run flat's benefits. IE: Safety, convenience, and the fact that you can still get to that ever-so-important meeting with a client at 2 PM on a Monday afternoon after hitting a nail on the way there. Or the husband buying the car for his wife, and see's the benefit of her not being stuck at the side of the road with a flat, or the parents buying the BMW for their son and see the safety benefit of their son experiencing a blowout at 75 MPH and not being able to maintain control of the vehicle. This is the reality of who's buying brand new BMW's these days.

In Canada the only current vehicle that does not come with run-flat is the M3, is this the case everywhere else as well?


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## Yorgi (Mar 17, 2005)

You cannot compare German and American BMW car sales. BMW sells more cars in Europe because over there it's a domestic brand like GM is over here. They sell mostly low cost stripper 3 series cars over there that we cannot buy in North America.

To give you an example, in 2010 US M car sales were 6,821 units vs only 1,716 M car sales in Germany. That 4X more M car sales in the US vs Germany. The US buys 40% of all M cars produced.

Why anyone would not buy a car because of the tires mounted is beyond me. Just pull them and switch to non-RF like all enthusiasts do. BMW realizes the M car buyers will notice that RFT suck so they don't mount them on M cars.

BTW, what are the Roundel scribes smoking these days? There are no good RFT on the market period. The Bridgestone RF tires that BMW uses are the best of the lot and they perform much worse than budget Korean non-RF tires.


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## 02BMW530 (Nov 19, 2010)

A comparison between US vs Euro sales is fair. Euro models are equipped with RFTs as well, and the euro customer is much more demanding then a US customer is. Therefore, if RFTs were truly as bad as they're thought to be, it'd be reflected in the euro sales. 

A comparison alluding it to be the "GM" of Europe is a bit unfair. It's not like a stripper 3 or 1 series is Cobalt priced - it's not. While there are cheaper 3 and 1s produced, a more direct comparison to GM is GM itself - Opel. a cheap BMW owner expects just as much from his car as an expensive BMW owner. Meanwhile, people who bought a cheap Opel, Citroën, Renault, etc may be more willing to "put up" with shortfalls. 

And this isn't coming out of my ass, this is from living there for 8 years. 


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## John Caring (Apr 7, 2011)

Hello,

First of all, sorry for the typo - please read "lose" instead of "loose" in the title.

I don't have official statistical evidence that a part of BMW buyers go to Audi or Mercedes. I know people though, that went to Audi and Mercedes after test driving the new BMW models with run-flats, because of the harsh ride. I also found similar reactions on some Audi forums. 

Coming back to our BMWs, I was under the impression that the majority of the buyers were against these run-flats, but reading your posts, it seems that the opinions are quite balanced. 

I start to believe that BMW sees the future in these run-flats that will eventually get better with time (!?) once the technology will mature. I hope they are right.

Regards, 

John


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## djfitter (Sep 12, 2007)

I wasn't unhappy with my OEM Dunlops and am as happy/happier with Michelin PS2 ZP's I replaced them with. 

dj


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

darbyogill said:


> BMW Group Sells More Vehicles In March Than Ever Before


BMW sold fewer passenger vehicles in the US in March than Mercedes and Lexus. One record month neither proves nor disproves the point raised in the OP.

The question was whether BMW might be losing some sales due to its insistence on RFTs - and it is perfectly possible that they may well be.


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## darbyogill (Jan 16, 2011)

swajames said:


> BMW sold fewer passenger vehicles in the US in March than Mercedes and Lexus. One record month neither proves nor disproves the point raised in the OP.
> 
> The question was whether BMW might be losing some sales due to its insistence on RFTs - and it is perfectly possible that they may well be.


It wasn't just a record month. It was also a great Q1 (a typically slow time for BMW).

How else is one supposed to quantify 'losing customers' if not by vehicle sales? Are we just supposed to take the OPs word for it because he doesn't like RFTs?


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

darbyogill said:


> It wasn't just a record month. It was also a great Q1 (a typically slow time for BMW).
> 
> How else is one supposed to quantify 'losing customers' if not by vehicle sales? Are we just supposed to take the OPs word for it because he doesn't like RFTs?


No. But the question he is asking is a legitimate one. Whatever the sales numbers were, the question is could they have been better. RFTs are something that can polarize opinion, and BMW doesn't offer a choice in the matter. My own experience was that the stock RFTs on my 545 and 550 were poor tires, and I was prepared to invest in different tires - but not every customer is prepared to do that.

In the US, the likelihood that you'll be traveling at sustained high speed over distance is extremely low. The likelihood that you'll suffer a catastrophic blowout is also low. The likelihood that you'll need to repair your tires due to minor road hazards, however, is quite high - and here, RFTs again prove to be a disadvantage as not every tire facility is prepared to go against the manufacturer recommendation that RFTs are non-repairable.


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## darbyogill (Jan 16, 2011)

Even if we discounted all the consumer benefits, there is the inescapable engineering benefit of space efficiency and weight savings. That alone should be enough for enthusiasts to realize that BMW is doing right by them, even if RFT technology is only now equaling that of conventional tires.

BMW is really way ahead of the curve on this one. Maybe to its detriment.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

darbyogill said:


> Even if we discounted all the consumer benefits, there is the inescapable engineering benefit of space efficiency and weight savings. That alone should be enough for enthusiasts to realize that BMW is doing right by them, even if RFT technology is only now equaling that of conventional tires.
> 
> BMW is really way ahead of the curve on this one. Maybe to its detriment.


Run flat tires are very heavy... The weight saving with RFTs compared to four conventional tires and a space-saver spare is negligible. Taking the F10 as an example, this is a car which now weighs close to *4600lbs* in 550xi guise - we're really missing the wood from the trees if we think this is part of a design philosophy to control weight.


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## darbyogill (Jan 16, 2011)

The weight decrease is not negligible, and the weight increase in the tires amounts to unsprung weight, while reducing weight in the chassis. ALL GOOD THINGS.

Please don't have me defend the F10 as a paradigm of weight-saving design philosophy. It's a bloated, numb pig and I daresay consumers aren't flocking to it for its handling characteristics.


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

swajames said:


> No. But the question he is asking is a legitimate one. Whatever the sales numbers were, the question is could they have been better. RFTs are something that can polarize opinion, and BMW doesn't offer a choice in the matter. My own experience was that the stock RFTs on my 545 and 550 were poor tires, and I was prepared to invest in different tires - but not every customer is prepared to do that.
> 
> In the US, the likelihood that you'll be traveling at sustained high speed over distance is extremely low. The likelihood that you'll suffer a catastrophic blowout is also low. The likelihood that you'll need to repair your tires due to minor road hazards, however, is quite high - and here, RFTs again prove to be a disadvantage as not every tire facility is prepared to go against the manufacturer recommendation that RFTs are non-repairable.


With BMW hovering around 16th place in the past few years in JD Powers 'IQS' survey you'd think they would want to try harder, but their sales numbers are right. Their main RFT tire supplier may not be contributing to their quality ratings as JDP's quality survey for OE tires in the luxury segment consistently ranks them (B'Stone) below average. Something to do with RFT satisfaction?

BMW learned nothing from their 'TRX' tire experience in the '80s...a disaster, and don't be surprised if we see 'Tweels' on our car in the future. Gen III RFs from Bridgestone are available now; when will BMW apply them?

Mercedes has now dipped their toe in the water with RFs as the 2011 E350 BlueTEC sedan is now standard with RFs; perhaps they're going to measure consumer response before going whole hog.


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## mjr244 (Dec 31, 2010)

Does OP even own a BMW? Ok....he is a BMW fan and subscribes to some BMW magazines. However, does he own one? He mentions he "read" about how run-flats feel. How is he criticizing a brand based on (apparently) the fact he read some stuff about the cars.....yet hasn't actually driven one himself. 

My 750 had run flats....noticed no difference. Who cares anyways? I took the wheels off right away just about. 

Who the heck buys a car or doesn't buy a car based on the tires it has? Get real.....seriously. If you are worried about having to replace a $250 tire because you are leasing the car and a college kid on a tight budget as someone said then get a Kia.

Run flats are safer....they serve a purpose.


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## mahof (Feb 29, 2008)

Actualy, I'm not going to buy out nor buy a BMW because of those tires. I think they are a horrible cash grab, safety might be the goal but money is the motivation here.
Everybody talks blow outs on the highway; I mean honestly, how often does that happen?Not to downplay the saftey aspect, but if your tires are in good shape, then that really shouldn't happen period. The only time it happened to me, I was driving on steel.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

BMW is not losing clients. If anything more folks are driving the 3 Series than ever before. Most folks don't seem to give a crap about the RFT's.


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## John Caring (Apr 7, 2011)

mjr244 said:


> Does OP even own a BMW? Ok....he is a BMW fan and subscribes to some BMW magazines. However, does he own one? He mentions he "read" about how run-flats feel. How is he criticizing a brand based on (apparently) the fact he read some stuff about the cars.....yet hasn't actually driven one himself.
> 
> My 750 had run flats....noticed no difference. Who cares anyways? I took the wheels off right away just about.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm presently driving a BMW 325i 2002 (E46) with regular tires. I drove a lot of BMWs in my life from 3 series (beginning with E30) to 5 series. (I didn't have the occasion to drive a 7 Series though). I test drove BMW with RFTs recently and all I observed was the very firm ride.

I'm not criticizing BMW, but as read a lot about cars, especially about BMWs, the subject of RFTs takes more and more of the tech talk (e.g. in Roundel and Bimmer magazines) and not for good reasons (90% of the cases it is about harsh ride, premature wear, excessive cost, etc.). Therefore the RFTs have a red flag for me presently.

I'm concerned about them as I'm thinking to upgrade to a 5er (E60), and (maybe it is just me) but I always prefer to do my homework before buying the car).

Regards,

John


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

mjr244 said:


> Does OP even own a BMW? Ok....he is a BMW fan and subscribes to some BMW magazines. However, does he own one? He mentions he "read" about how run-flats feel. How is he criticizing a brand based on (apparently) the fact he read some stuff about the cars.....yet hasn't actually driven one himself.
> 
> My 750 had run flats....noticed no difference. Who cares anyways? I took the wheels off right away just about.
> 
> ...


When you drive a car that weighs just a shade under 5000lbs - in itself a pretty shocking weight for a passenger car - then I agree that you may not notice the difference. The more enthusiast oriented models do feel significantly different with run flats.


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## mujjuman (Feb 2, 2009)

"why does BMW prefer to stick with runflats even though they suck?" 

Because most of BMWs customers don't care and aren't real driving enthusiasts. They like the marketing behind them. The real enthusiasts would change them out sooner or later. 
Most BMW customers also lease their new cars..... So they probably will NOT invest in different tires even if they hated runflats because the car is going to be returned in 3-4 yrs. 

When I went to the dealer to test-drive new cars, they were trying tell me that runflats were superior. Fortunately, I know better lol.


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

mujjuman said:


> "why does BMW prefer to stick with runflats even though they suck?"
> 
> Because most of BMWs customers don't care and aren't real driving enthusiasts. They like the marketing behind them. The real enthusiasts would change them out sooner or later.
> Most BMW customers also lease their new cars..... So they probably will NOT invest in different tires even if they hated runflats because the car is going to be returned in 3-4 yrs.
> ...


I don't agree that "most BMW customers aren't real driving enthusiasts." Many of them are. And your statement that "most BMW customers lease their cars" is too broad as I doubt that even 45% of them do. Many BMW owner's can afford to finance their car other than leasing. SMART buyers, depending on their geographic location will realize that the RFTs are NOT going to work for them. Living in the wide open Western U.S.A., the OE RFTs have a 50 mph, 50 mile LIMIT for endurance. Living in L.A. this DOESN'T work if you want to go skiing in Mammoth Mt. (or even a Summer visit), some 8 hrs. away with MANY desolate miles in between. I refuse to take the risk of a long drive with RFTs and have not yet purchased the compact spare (stickey). I am totally annoyed that BMW's tire choice has limited my driving mobility unless I shell out big bucks on my own.

50 mph limit with a RFT flat on CA's I-405 freeway with 75 mph traffic all around you...at night...Gimmee a break.


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## mujjuman (Feb 2, 2009)

Just going by what my dealer told me.


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## tdepetra (Sep 1, 2010)

tturedraider said:


> Dude, no car manufacturer provides a full size wheel and tire as a spare anymore and they haven't for years and years and years. At best, for a passenger car, you will get a temporary spare that you are not supposed to drive at more than 50 mph and 150 miles.


2008 Avalon does.


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## Yorgi (Mar 17, 2005)

mujjuman said:


> "why does BMW prefer to stick with runflats even though they suck?"
> 
> *Because most of BMWs customers don't care and aren't real driving enthusiasts. They like the marketing behind them. The real enthusiasts would change them out sooner or later.
> Most BMW customers also lease their new cars..... *So they probably will NOT invest in different tires even if they hated runflats because the car is going to be returned in 3-4 yrs.
> ...


+1 This.

Most BMW customers do not hang out on car forums. They are professionals that don't lay a finger on their own cars. They don't know how to change a flat tire and they sure as heck don't want to end up stranded on the side of a highway or in some shady neighborhood at night trying to change a tire. Most BMW owners love the safety aspect of these tires and continue to replace RFT with more RFT when they wear out. Go read the 6er or 7 series boards if you don't believe me.

If you don't like RFT either:
1) get an M car 
2) go out and do some drifting on your RFT which you've secretly been dying to try but would never attempt on cars with decent tires installed. Then install some real replacement tires.


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## Carraway (Sep 16, 2010)

pointandgo said:


> I don't agree that "most BMW customers aren't real driving enthusiasts." Many of them are. And your statement that "most BMW customers lease their cars" is too broad as I doubt that even 45% of them do. Many BMW owner's can afford to finance their car other than leasing. SMART buyers, depending on their geographic location will realize that the RFTs are NOT going to work for them. Living in the wide open Western U.S.A., the OE RFTs have a 50 mph, 50 mile LIMIT for endurance. Living in L.A. this DOESN'T work if you want to go skiing in Mammoth Mt. (or even a Summer visit), some 8 hrs. away with MANY desolate miles in between. I refuse to take the risk of a long drive with RFTs and have not yet purchased the compact spare (stickey). I am totally annoyed that BMW's tire choice has limited my driving mobility unless I shell out big bucks on my own.
> 
> 50 mph limit with a RFT flat on CA's I-405 freeway with 75 mph traffic all around you...at night...Gimmee a break.


FYI, according to BMW's site here, "Perhaps that's why more than half of BMW drivers lease"; so yes, the majority lease. They don't say how many BMW owners are "enthusiasts," but judging by the ratio of available auto- to manual-transmission cars around, I'd say the percent is fairly small. Of course, that's not to say an enthusiast can't have an AT nor every MT owner will be one, but generally speaking, enthusiasts will gravitate towards three pedals while non-enthusiasts only want two.

But if it matters, the lack of a place to even put a spare really bothers me, as well, particularly considering the places, times, distances and conditions where I regularly drive.


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## ssaylor (Jun 5, 2005)

Audi does not use RFTs on the R8, nor does it have a spare - where would you put it? 

They provide a can of FixAFlat, a 12V compressor and store it where the jack usually goes. 

This was always a source of anxiety for me so, IT COULD BE WORSE! 

RFTs have come a long way, performance wise, but they're still awfully stiff. I'm still on the fence about replacing the RFTs. If I do dump them, it's going to be for a set of Michelin Super Sports. Glad I waited! I just want to read a few more real-world reviews.


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## AnonCA (Oct 26, 2010)

"Yes, I'm presently driving a BMW 325i 2002 (E46) with regular tires. I drove a lot of BMWs in my life from 3 series (beginning with E30) to 5 series. (I didn't have the occasion to drive a 7 Series though). I test drove BMW with RFTs recently and all I observed was the very firm ride. " If the ride seemed firm in relation to a 9 year old car and handful of other, older BMWs, there are way more factors involved than just RFT


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## John Caring (Apr 7, 2011)

AnonCA said:


> "Yes, I'm presently driving a BMW 325i 2002 (E46) with regular tires. I drove a lot of BMWs in my life from 3 series (beginning with E30) to 5 series. (I didn't have the occasion to drive a 7 Series though). I test drove BMW with RFTs recently and all I observed was the very firm ride. " If the ride seemed firm in relation to a 9 year old car and handful of other, older BMWs, there are way more factors involved than just RFT


My 9 years old E46 is a manual with just 70K miles on it and was extremely well maintained. Some suspension components were preventive replaced and the car drives like new, very tight, very sweet.:thumbup:

I like it so much that I cannot let it go for the moment! I drove E90s with RFTs that had considerably worse rides.

Regards,

John


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

Carraway said:


> FYI, according to BMW's site here, "Perhaps that's why more than half of BMW drivers lease"; so yes, the majority lease. They don't say how many BMW owners are "enthusiasts," but judging by the ratio of available auto- to manual-transmission cars around, I'd say the percent is fairly small. Of course, that's not to say an enthusiast can't have an AT nor every MT owner will be one, but generally speaking, enthusiasts will gravitate towards three pedals while non-enthusiasts only want two.
> 
> But if it matters, the lack of a place to even put a spare really bothers me, as well, particularly considering the places, times, distances and conditions where I regularly drive.


OK, I'll go with that. I was influenced by a poll in another bimmer forum that showed a majority of owner's financing or paying cash; perhaps not totally representative or scientific. I suppose leasing is more popular in those states with a high sales tax.


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## pointandgo (Apr 9, 2010)

I was holding out some hope that RFTs may not be in our future for two reasons: 
1. Ongoing NHTSA rulemaking that (replacement) tires must be labeled for their fuel efficiency...and that RFTs would fare poorly upon the initiation of these rules. 
2. Ever more stringent fuel economy requirements that auto maker's face in the coming years...since the passing of the 2007 Energy Independence & Security Act - EISA.

It seems, however, that RFTs (some) can be heavy _and_ fuel efficient. BMW promotes our OE tires as being fuel efficient, but are they fuel efficient enough? The National Acedemy of Sciences concluded that tires account for 4 - 7% of the energy available from the vehicle's fuel usage (used to overcome tire rolling resistance).


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## Klamalama (Oct 6, 2007)

I swapped my RFTs for Conti DWS tires. Big improvement in every area.


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## bmwNmanhattan (May 19, 2011)

*550xi RFT Blowout Record Holder 14 Tires/4 rims*

Fellow BMW owners i am in a serious conundrum. In the six months 
i have owned my 2011 550xi sedan i have gone thru 11 goodyear rft tires
and 3 pirelli's ( pirelli was the alt option to see if it solved the problem.)
in addition 4 rims were replaced. "Manhattan BMW" is offering only one
recourse. switch to 18inch rims and sign a waiver that says i cannot
seek litigation. they will not compensate me for the difference in the
downgrade. I expressed how nervous i am about getting in my car
because literally everytime i drive it i get a flat. what are my options?


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## too tall (Jul 10, 2010)

That is extraordinary to have that many flats. Is this due to tire failure or debris (nails, etc.)? Alternatives that I can think of:

18" Non run flats and a space saver and jack in the trunk, if it fits, from the dealer.
18" run flats, the best you can find, from the dealer. 

Buy whatever rims and tires you want from Tire Rack and retain your right to sue, but it sounds like they are being reasonable. 

You might be able to negotiate keeping the 19" wheels and selling them as additional compensation.


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## Yorgi (Mar 17, 2005)

bmwNmanhattan said:


> ...what are my options?


Stop hitting pot holes or buy an SUV.:angel:

Just kidding. If you want to stick to 19" I'd get a set of forged wheels and put non-runflat summer tires on them then take BMW's offer for 18" wheels but mount snows on them.


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