# BMW Dealerships Receptive to Invoice (+) or (-) Pricing?



## Devon (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm a very loyal BMW lessee and honestly have never been proactive about negotiating a Cap Cost via " Invoice Plus" pricing. My wife and I both have leases ending this fall 
(2011 328xdrive sedan and 2011 X5d) and I am quickly becoming informed from the forum that a fair deal would be invoice +$500 or maybe invoice +$1000. I live in a mid size city with one BMW dealership and the two closest competitor dealerships would be 60 miles away. 

I clearly remember that the dealership offered us MSRP minus $2500 when we leased our 2011 X5d. We then deducted $2500 Holiday Cash, $3500 Eco Credit . Even though the Mfg credits were generous at the time, I really dropped the ball with regards to accepting MSRP minus $2500. Appears that I ended up paying something like Invoice +$3000 which is no where near the +$500 or +$1000 referenced frequently on this forum.

So, my questions are... how receptive is my dealership going to be if I press the issue about Invoice +$500 pricing (or even Invoice +$1000 pricing)? Is this a common request to CA's when there really isn't a competing dealership in the immediate area? I am more than happy to know my dealership is making a fair profit on my business, but isn't it fair to say that invoice pricing may not be a realistic expectation with no competition near by? I would love to hear some feedback from CA's or customers familiar with my demographics.


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## Dallas550 (Jan 16, 2011)

I can give you an example from Austin, they usually are not receptive to invoice + pricing. Since it is a smaller market, the alternatives are driving up to 1-3 hours away and they price their cars with that fact in mind. Is there any reason why you're set on that one dealership? The midwest is a large region, so I can't pinpoint a location to go to but you could probably save yourself a few thousand dollars going to Chicago.


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## Trinitony (Feb 10, 2010)

You might consider a couple of alternatives if your dealer will not budge on Invoice Plus pricing:
1) Buy from a sponsor of Bimmerfest. They often will accept Invoice Plus pricing. If the sponsor is a long way from you it is possible to have your car delivered to the PCD in Spartanburg at no cost to you (see the PCD forum on Bimmerfest for more information). The treatment that you get in Spartanburg is awesome.
2) Most dealers will accept an Invoice Plus deal on a European Delivery (ED) purchase. There is a 7% saving on the MSRP and Invoice Price for ED and again you could have your car redelivered to the PCD. The treatment that you get when accepting your car at BMW's Welt in Munich is as awesome as the PCD (you can find out more about ED on the ED Forum on Bimmerfest). Once you have done one ED you are hooked for life and with both of you leasing you can save some money - in fact in rare cases you read about some families doing two EDs on one trip.

But I would try your local dealer first. I started by talking to the Sales Manager first. That way you can save a lot of time if he is totally against Invoice Plus pricing. You have nothing to lose.


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## williakz (Apr 14, 2013)

Why are so many people hung up on Invoice Plus pricing? At the end of the day, you are going to pay a certain amount for the car (or set the cap cost). Do you really CARE whether this number is produced by invoice plus versus MSRP less discount? Look, let's keep it simple. You (the customer) and he (the dealer) both know all the associated numbers. MSRP? Yup, right off BMW Build Your Own or other configurators. Invoice? Yup, off BMWConfig as well as many other internet sources. So you figure out what you're willing to pay and present an offer to the dealer. If he's the only game in town and you're not willing to go elsewhere, he has all the bargaining leverage and may well hold out for a higher price for the vehicle. If you are willing to accept PCD, you have opened the dealer network to (almost) every one in the country and your local guy must trim his margin or lose the sale. It's really a fairly simple proposition. My objection is the reflexive customer fixation on invoice plus (damn Consumer Reports for all time!). There's nothing magical about how a final price is arrived at. Invoice plus or MSRP less discount are each fully capable of producing a price satisfactory to both customer and dealer. The REAL challenge is to ensure that your local dealer is in competition with other dealers for your business. Work on that; not the whether the calculation of price has a + or a - sign associated with it.


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## Dallas550 (Jan 16, 2011)

I understand where you're coming from, but it helps with the understanding from both sides that you have justification for the price you give out. If I walk into a dealership and offer a specific number, most likely they're going to say how in the world did you come up with that? Oh I used BMWconfig, haven't you heard of it? 

It's just much easier to get the dealer to print out the invoice sheet and mark it up say $500 or so and you're out the door. It provides no room for back and forth and is a much simpler process IMO overall.


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## williakz (Apr 14, 2013)

The exercise is not about what is simpler or what is easier; it's about what will get you the lowest price in the least amount of time with the fewest ruffled feathers (you may need the dealer later on). You need to be be flexible in adopting whatever approach achieves YOUR goals when sitting across from a salesperson. Again, my objection is to the unthinking, reflexive reliance on the Consumer Reports method. If the dealer HATES this kind of price negotiation (and many do), why do you insist on rubbing his nose in it? You derive no benefit from doing so. Different strokes applied to different folks, right? If you know anything about sales, you know the experienced salesperson probes the customer to decide which sales technique best suits the customer and the situation. Your making a deal on a vehicle requires the same approach; you "sell" the dealer on selling you a vehicle for a price you both can accept. Probe, select approach, negotiate, make the deal, drive away happy. Good luck.


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## Dallas550 (Jan 16, 2011)

If the dealer is unwilling to accept an invoice + price model, then one can sometimes infer that the dealer is not open to any major discount off of MSRP. This was my example with BMW of Austin. I'm not sure how many BMWs you have bought, but you can get a feel for which dealerships will work with you and which ones will tell you to pound sand. I'm not sure what you consider "simpler" or "easier" but I along with a majority of others will equate that with spending the least amount of time possible on a deal. So in theory yes, this "exercise" is about what is simpler and easier for the typical car buyer. Being a good salesman requires you to adapt to the situation, if my salesman is not accommodating to a simple request related to invoice pricing then I can move on and find someone else. 

I really don't care at this point but it is entertaining to play devils advocate to your observations.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

invoice plus $500-$1,000 is fair for most models............take all incentives out of equation... because they are what they are. Try a few dealers for best price, if you find out can't make a deal maybe it's time to look out of state, especially if you can do a PCD.


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## williakz (Apr 14, 2013)

So sorry you don't really care, but I'll respond so others can benefit from the correction of your errors of logic.

It is a non sequitur that NO! on Invoice Plus leads to NO! on MSRP less discount - it does not. Many salespeople will entertain a discount negotiation even where they refuse to participate in invoice plus price negotiation. As a customer, you should be agnostic as to which approach the dealer prefers. Either can lead to a successful negotiation. In the same way, I have argued elsewhere that customers do themselves a disservice by demanding dealers scratch out doc fees; dealers CANNOT do so by law, but they can (and do) readily increase the discount or trade-in allowance to offset doc fees in full or in part. The number of BMWs I have purchased is irrelevant to the discussion; in fact, your raising the point could be considered an ad hominem attack as you are questioning my credibility instead of addressing my arguments. It is in keeping with the cheap throwaway comment with which you closed your post. Consequently, I offer you no information whatsoever on my qualifications to opine on the negotiating process. Do with that what you will. Finally, you erroneously conflate simpler/easier with more efficient. While a time component certainly does exist, and negotiations should not drag on indefinitely, the savvy car customer can and should expect to deal with significant complexity and adversity during the vehicle purchase process. It is well-established here that one must fully comprehend lease components and their interrelationships as well as incentives, prepayments, and termination eventualities in order to obtain maximum advantage from a lease transaction. Nothing easy or simple about it. Such is life, and such is the car business. Caveat emptor remain watchwords worth remembering.


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## Dallas550 (Jan 16, 2011)

Taking the high road...

Good luck OP.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

OP - You can make this really easy for yourself. Go to BMWConfig.com, and build your model with options, etc. Once you have it done, download it to Excel, and then add a row for dealer profit and rows for any incentives. Once you do that, you should have a one page document which shows MSRP, Invoice, Dealer profit, Incentives, and final cost. Put it what you consider a fair dealer profit, and when you go in, you say this is the exact car I am looking for, and here is what I will pay. If they don't want to play ball, thank them for their time and go to another dealer (if they are not local you may want to reach out and can email the sheet). This way you haven't wasted their time, and they haven't wasted yours, and if you need to go back there, you haven't soured the relationship.

This is the method I used for my ED. CA took one trip into Finance office, showed him my paper, and we had a deal. No back and forth BS.


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## aberrant (Apr 20, 2013)

CTSoxFan said:


> OP - You can make this really easy for yourself. Go to BMWConfig.com, and build your model with options, etc. Once you have it done, download it to Excel, and then add a row for dealer profit and rows for any incentives. Once you do that, you should have a one page document which shows MSRP, Invoice, Dealer profit, Incentives, and final cost. Put it what you consider a fair dealer profit, and when you go in, you say this is the exact car I am looking for, and here is what I will pay. If they don't want to play ball, thank them for their time and go to another dealer (if they are not local you may want to reach out and can email the sheet). This way you haven't wasted their time, and they haven't wasted yours, and if you need to go back there, you haven't soured the relationship.
> 
> This is the method I used for my ED. CA took one trip into Finance office, showed him my paper, and we had a deal. No back and forth BS.


Exactly this. Don't worry about whether it's "markup from invoice" or "discount from MSRP" - the point is that you're presenting a number that you're willing to pay, and there's no negotiation required. They either accept it or you walk. There are other dealers out there.

That said, I'd say that depending on the model, you can get even more aggressive than $500 over invoice. I had a dealer call me back and counter with $250 BELOW invoice on an X3. I had already placed the order with my local dealer and was happy with the price, so I didn't switch, but it goes to show that dealers' willingness to negotiate will vary. Once you decide on a price you're willing to pay, keep looking until you find a dealer willing to accept it. If it's a "fair" price, it won't be too difficult.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Devon said:


> I am more than happy to know my dealership is making a fair profit on my business, but isn't it fair to say that invoice pricing may not be a realistic expectation with no competition near by?


Fair is difficult to define, let alone coming to a fair price. I wouldn't even bother going down that path with a dealership, since they can likely come up with many valid arguments, that don't help get a deal done. If you're paying cash, a quick way to make an offer is an out the door/drive off price. Naturally, you'll need to work out what your offer is before drive off fees, incentives, and then add those in, but it simplifies everything and avoids creep shock during negotiations. If you're leasing, you should take a different approach.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

ok.. interesting thread.....Let me thrown some info, in the mix...reality is, we can sell a car for MSRP or -$5k below invoice.. there are so many components the most knowledgible customer will never know ...here are some key points.

1 how long has car been on lot?
2 what are color and options, is it a desireable color?
3 what factory incentives do we have (You may NEVER know) sometimes only dealer principals know
4 are you a local or long dist cust
5 does the car have any lot damage
6 how many of the similar car does dealer have
7 what is market like in your area... I can tell you the LA market is wayyyyyy more competative than say a area with 2 stores in the whole city (Las Vegas for example) we have 12-15 stores in a 60 mile radius!! so competition is fierce
8 what is market value on car i.e. a M3 will hold more profit than a 328
9 how many miles on car

That's my input for the day......


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

[email protected] BMW said:


> ok.. interesting thread.....Let me thrown some info, in the mix...reality is, we can sell a car for MSRP or -$5k below invoice.. there are so many components the most knowledgible customer will never know ...here are some key points.
> 
> 1 how long has car been on lot?
> 2 what are color and options, is it a desireable color?
> ...


I take it that there's no set formula/system that spits out a price for the sales manager based on the above. Heck, for all we know, a lot on whether a deal goes through may depend on the mood of the SM at that point in time. You may get a better deal just by getting him or her their favorite beverage and a donut prior to asking for approval.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

keep in mind that not all sales managers make final decisions... it can go to the General Manager or even the owner. Bottom line is................. well Chris said it right. Anything can happen any day. You the customer will never know the TRUE bottom line. So just do your research and go with what YOU think is best deal, whay YOU are comfortable with........... because in the end YOU are writing the check.


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## Stitches (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] BMW said:


> ok.. interesting thread.....Let me thrown some info, in the mix...reality is, we can sell a car for MSRP or -$5k below invoice.. there are so many components the most knowledgible customer will never know ...here are some key points.
> 
> 1 how long has car been on lot?
> 2 what are color and options, is it a desireable color?
> ...


Could you possibly elaborate on any of these points? I am particularly perplexed by the how color and options matter? I could guess that if we are talking about a car on the lot the popularity of the color and options could impact supply and demand. But do color and options matter if the car is being ordered? Or obtained from another dealership in a swap? 
Also, how does whether I am local or long distance matter? Less interest in a customer where there won't be a future service relationship?


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## lezam (Apr 24, 2013)

You can definitely get invoice pricing on a BMW. You have to negotiate, and don't be afraid to call up the internet department at the dealership. They can give better prices


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## aberrant (Apr 20, 2013)

[email protected] BMW said:


> You the customer will never know the TRUE bottom line.


Greg, wait a second... How does this comport with what you said here? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7571772&postcount=21)



> we buy the car from BMW NA for invoice, whatever we sell below that is a loss.


I'm obviously missing something here. Do you buy the cars at invoice, or can dealers get them for less than that?


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

aberrant said:


> Greg, wait a second... How does this comport with what you said here? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7571772&postcount=21)
> 
> I'm obviously missing something here. Do you buy the cars at invoice, or can dealers get them for less than that?


From what I understand, dealers purchase the car at invoice. The longer the car sits on the lot the more interest is paid on the vehicle and money is lost, if the car doesn't sell the dealership will usually sell it below invoice just to remove it from their inventory. Also sometimes there is "trunk money" only the dealer knows about, besides that BMW gives the dealers a "bonus" based on their surveys/performance.


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## 328 M Sport (Apr 4, 2013)

Look; when I found the car I wanted with the options I needed, I was happy to get $2,600 off the $52,295 sticker. We have BMW dealers in Rochester, Syracuse and Binghamton N.Y. area, and I tried all. The Binghamton dealer was the only one who was willing to seach for my car, and discount the sticker price on a "not on the lot" vehicle. I did not want to wait many weeks to order; I am happy with my deal, but yeah I would have LOVED to pay $500 over invoice!
_________________________________________________________________________
2013 Estoril Blue II 328i M Sport


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## merithynos (Jan 22, 2013)

I want to second the notion of trying different CA's at the same dealership. I recently sold my '03 Z4, and had my eye on a 2011 Z4 at my local dealer. I emailed the internet guy with an offer, basically got the brush off. Since I've been dealing with the same service advisor for the past 7 years, I called him up and asked him to steer me to the best CA. Drove the car off the lot a couple days later.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

aberrant said:


> Why would a dealer offer to sell a build-to-order below invoice, then? Just because of the "trunk money"?


Try this scenario on for size. The Center needs to contract X cars this month to hit their target bonus (extra $$$ from BMWNA). You walk in on the afternoon of the last day of the month, and they have sold X -1 (that's "X minus 1", not the small SAV). The difference between hitting that target and missing it -even by one unit - could mean several thousand dollarss to their bottom line.

Think they would be willing to blow out that unit at a discount to get the bigger check?

Obviously, this logic works on the last day of the month when dealers are hungry. One day later, and you are SOL.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

*Are Dealerships Receptive to Invoice+ Pricing*

For the record rarely do dealers like to do a ordered car for below invoice.... Now a in stock car end of month sure ...that is a no brainier especially if there is a bonus for ca or for store.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

[email protected] BMW said:


> For the record rarely do dealers like to do a ordered car for below invoice.... Now a in stock car end of month sure ...that is a no brainier especially if there is a bonus for ca or for store.


I guess I am the exception. I take orders for far below invoice all day long.

This is my preferred modus operandi.

My clients get all of the options they want, don't have to pay for equipment they don't want, and drive home factory-fresh virgin bimmers every time. No high-mileage 90+-day units with lot rot here.


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

Jon Shafer said:


> I guess I am the exception. *I take orders for far below invoice all day long.*This is my preferred modus operandi.
> 
> My clients get all of the options they want, don't have to pay for equipment they don't want, and drive home factory-fresh virgin bimmers every time. No high-mileage 90+-day units with lot rot here.


Really you guys do that up there? Interesting


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## BMWFanboy (Apr 27, 2008)

The problem is also that the term "invoice" is thrown around here to refer to different things. MACO + training are included or excluded, etc.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Bottom line.. We can all sell cars below invoice... Really comes down to inventory and demand and objectives for the store. I say to certain clients.. Go-ahead shop around then contact me. If you are on the correct car.. I am sure I can make an offer that would swing you my way.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

BMWFanboy said:


> The problem is also that the term "invoice" is thrown around here to refer to different things. MACO + training are included or excluded, etc.


Why don't we all agree then on a standard -- references to invoice should reflect what is actually printed on an invoice (this includes
MACO and training).


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## BMWFanboy (Apr 27, 2008)

Jon Shafer said:


> Why don't we all agree then on a standard -- references to invoice should reflect what is actually printed on an invoice (this includes
> MACO and training).


I agree, just saying because of some other sites not listing these in their "invoice" price people have different definitions of this.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Really you guys do that up there? Interesting


Really? Sorry to hear that you can't/don't Justin... It seems to be the market in your area too. Keep working that lease portfolio.

I don't do this on all models, of course. European Delivery, no. US delivery Models (cars) that would be objectively called "volume models", indeed!

SAVs = slighlty higher. I'll match or beat anyone's deal presuming I have cars available, and the buyer is willing to place a custom order.

Those are the only caveats.

I have been given the green light to be extra-aggressive this month, so California prospects, please take note.

:bigpimp:


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