# Announcing the BMW Santa Barbara Year-End Event!



## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

mjsbmw said:


> Why should anyone pay a mark up on acquisition fee or mark up on money factor. Too many dealers to choose from that will charge the "buy rate". Walk (run) away from a dealer that is trying to make a profit on those items.
> 
> If they are trying to screw with you on those items, where else are they trying to play games. Doc fees?
> 
> ...


What I don't understand, is that I put in plain English in my post that this deal is for California buyers. You are a New Jersian.
How relevant is it at all what your dealers are doing 3,000 plus miles away from here? Market condition vary by region, don't they?
I mean seriously, you guys have a 27 month lease special, we don't. It is obvious that your market is more distressed than ours...

More importantly, do you think it fair stiff a waitress who serves you a fine meal? You pay your restaurant bill, right? 
Why do you pay a tip? The measley $200 on the $725.00 Bank Fee on the $45,000 BMW lease helps the F&I Department
feed their families. You don't believe in that. And this is our "Christmas Special". I think it's time to watch that black
and white Christmas movie again....

: popcorn:

And of course this begs the question now: how do you earn your living?

:dunno:

I have the sense you've been screwed some time before. I feel bad for you. Buy rate + Bank Fee mark-up is not
getting screwed any day. If you surveyed with accurate data the AVERAGE Back-End profit per deal of NON-FEST dealers,
I would venture to say that number would be around $800 PNVR (that's Per New Vehicle Retailed).


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## j3ff (Nov 20, 2011)

i expect the dealer to make some money somewhere in the deal. it can be in the markup over invoice, it can be in the acquisition fee, it can be in the money factor, it can be in the holdback. they've got to make money somewhere- it's their business, not a charitable enterprise. the question is what constitutes a reasonable return to the dealer. how it is distributed among the various available pockets isn't very relevant to me.

my deal had a small markup over invoice. it had a relatively high doc fee. it had no markup in the money factor, and none in the acquisition fee, no maco. i was an easy sale. i had done my homework, knew the numbers, took very little of anyone's time and profitably utilized an allocation slot at my high volume dealer. my job in negotiating was to keep track of the whole package, not to worry about which label was put on a particular subfraction of the money involved.


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

Jon Shafer said:


> What I don't understand, is that I put in plain English in my post that this deal is for California buyers. You are a New Jersian.
> How relevant is it at all what your dealers are doing 3,000 plus miles away from here? Market condition vary by region, don't they?
> 
> *Jon, Rates and programs do differ by region. And the market condition vary by region too. Your program is in very clear English and careful wording of "Zero front end profit" *More importantly, do you think it fair stiff a waitress who serves you a fine meal? You pay your restaurant bill, right?
> ...


*Not sure how you get your numbers. Assume a nicely loaded 328 with a MSRP of $45K, the backend incentives is about $1,400. Add to that any spiffs, end of month (last day) regional incentives and I think your $800 is low.

Jon - you are entitled to do what you want in how you approach a sale. I wonder why not just sell the car for $200 over invoice and not pad the F&I. As one post on this thread said, I am looking at the net overall price but to say selling at invoice just seems wrong to me.

My intentions is not to offend you but just to give you an East Coast reaction. And someone should counsel Will on how to speak to people. He is in sales????? :yikes:*


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## ZoomVT (May 30, 2008)

Errr did you miss the "before incentives" part?

The way I read it is invoice minus incentives. So 0 markup on the purchase price and only 200 on the laf. Am I reading it wrong?

Because that sounds like an outstanding deal to me....

If I was close I would get it even as I'm not in the market for 1.

Sent from my SGH-I997 using Bimmer


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## sdg1871 (Mar 9, 2009)

Jon Shafer said:


> I was a gas station attendant once. That's where I learned all about cars (and people)..


Small world. I too was once a gas station attendant. In a bad hood


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

ZoomVT said:


> Errr did you miss the "before incentives" part?
> 
> The way I read it is invoice minus incentives. So 0 markup on the purchase price and only 200 on the laf. Am I reading it wrong?
> 
> ...


You read it correctly...

:thumbup:


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

*Sigh....*



mjsbmw said:


> Not sure how you get your numbers. Assume a nicely loaded 328 with a MSRP of $45K, the backend incentives is about $1,400. Add to that any spiffs, end of month (last day) regional incentives and I think your $800 is low.


In context, whenever I refer to the "back end" of a deal, I am talking specifically about F&I Profit. $800/car is the mean.

In my deal above it is exactly $140.00.

The back-end you are alluding to matters nothing to me. I've never been paid on it, who knows, maybe some day. When the F&I Department recaps a deal after the customer leaves, nobody (except the owner) tracks what you are comparing to holdback. Holdback was eliminated over a decade ago. The bonuses you are thinking of have become insurance for BMWNA that Dealer Principals employ fully-trained personnel, that prescribed best practices are followed, and that a certain minimum level of CSI/SSI is maintained. "Profit"?? That's not what I call it...



mjsbmw said:


> Jon - you are entitled to do what you want in how you approach a sale. I wonder why not just sell the car for $200 over invoice and not pad the F&I. As one post on this thread said, I am looking at the net overall price but to say selling at invoice just seems wrong to me.


I do this specifically because I have two of the sweetest F&I girls that you will find anywhere, and they work hard for their money. They are paid on commission, and now that I am keeping them busy with all of my labor-intensive (for them with Fed-Exing back and forth) Internet Deals, it's the absolute least I can do...



mjsbmw said:


> My intentions is not to offend you but just to give you an East Coast reaction. And someone should counsel Will on how to speak to people. He is in sales????? :yikes:


Feedback is great and welcomed. I think it came off as an attack, and I suspect that's what Will was responding to. I am not at all offended. Sometimes it is good to throw some of these ideas around in a lively discussion. In the grand scheme of things, the CAs that answer questions here and who support Bimmerfest are some of the unsung heroes of the site. Yes, they do make some sales, but you can tell that it is more than just about that for them. They are here because they love it, and they are here because they are genuinely altruistic in nature.

One of the main reasons why Bimmerfest became a success is because we had CAs who were willing to stick their necks out and post publicly, 24 hours per day.

Will was just standing up for me, let's let it slide. I've never seen him do that before, probably never will again.

:grouphug:


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## iwantone (Jun 2, 2005)

Please note - Not all east coast (read NJ) buyers think Will, Jon and Greg (CA fest sponsors) are thugs...most of us prefer to buy from you guys and do an ED/ PCD - just to avoid the other 95% of car dealerships and their cheap tricks.

mjsbmw - care to point me in the direction of 1 NJ dealer who will work with the transparency that these guys do? I bet you cannot, coz they dont exist. If you are indeed able to get a deal with $1000 below invoice before any and all incentives/ conquest cash etc. prove it by posting copies of some legit deal paperwork. I am willing to bet you cannot coz that doesnt exist either.

Once again, I would like to thank awesome dealers such as Greg, Jon and Will who go the extra mile to make our BMW buying process memorable. Cheers!!!


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Now this is an interesting thread!!!.............


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## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2011)

mjsbmw said:


> * And someone should counsel Will on how to speak to people. He is in sales????? :yikes:*


I don't need counseling. Your post rubbed me the wrong way and I chose to respond the way I did.

I know how to speak to people and I do just fine.

Don't come in here and bash Bimmerfest client advisors. You'll just look dumb. Dummy


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

iwantone said:


> Please note - Not all east coast (read NJ) buyers think Will, Jon and Greg (CA fest sponsors) are thugs...most of us prefer to buy from you guys and do an ED/ PCD - just to avoid the other 95% of car dealerships and their cheap tricks.
> 
> mjsbmw - care to point me in the direction of 1 NJ dealer who will work with the transparency that these guys do? I bet you cannot, coz they dont exist. If you are indeed able to get a deal with $1000 below invoice before any and all incentives/ conquest cash etc. prove it by posting copies of some legit deal paperwork. I am willing to bet you cannot coz that doesnt exist either.
> 
> Once again, I would like to thank awesome dealers such as Greg, Jon and Will who go the extra mile to make our BMW buying process memorable. Cheers!!!


How about two dealers. Open Road and JMK. Both realize that they are getting the new F30 in a month or so and having a ton E90s is just not a good thing. And there is a year end push. I might be intolerent of BS, but I do not play that game of creating BS.

BTW, you have a dozen BMW points to choose from in the NY Metro area.


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I don't need counseling. Your post rubbed me the wrong way and I chose to respond the way I did.
> 
> I know how to speak to people and I do just fine.
> 
> Don't come in here and bash Bimmerfest client advisors. You'll just look dumb. Dummy


Will - I asked that in your next reply you explain the 3-4% backend money each dealer earns and the difference between invoice and the REAL cost. Dealers make ton of $$$$ in all sorts of places. In fact, the profit (or loss) on a new car sale is the least amount of gross for a store. What is your "absorption factor" for fixed ops? Call me dumb if I am asking your to explain the financial workings of your dealership. Do you really know?? I am pushing this issue since YOU said that the $200 padding is the only money your dealership makes on the deal. BS.

Also, please post the CSI for your store and how it compares to those in your region. That might be interesting to see if consumers see your practices as a problem.

As I said to Jon, you can choose to price your cars anyway you want and local market demands can have an important impact on how you market.


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## iwantone (Jun 2, 2005)

mjsbmw said:


> How about two dealers. Open Road and JMK. Both realize that they are getting the new F30 in a month or so and having a ton E90s is just not a good thing. And there is a year end push. I might be intolerent of BS, but I do not play that game of creating BS.
> 
> BTW, you have a dozen BMW points to choose from in the NY Metro area.


Don't know about JMK, but try to go buy a car at Open Road. They are the sleaziest [email protected]#$#

Finalize a deal and share the numbers...

Sent from my SGH-I997 using Bimmer


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

[email protected] BMW said:


> Now this is an interesting thread!!!.............


Glenn,

Glad you are enjoying it. I am! And there is more to come!


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## ckm1515 (Feb 10, 2006)

iwantone said:


> Please note - Not all east coast (read NJ) buyers think Will, Jon and Greg (CA fest sponsors) are thugs...most of us prefer to buy from you guys and do an ED/ PCD - just to avoid the other 95% of car dealerships and their cheap tricks.
> 
> mjsbmw - care to point me in the direction of 1 NJ dealer who will work with the transparency that these guys do? I bet you cannot, coz they dont exist. If you are indeed able to get a deal with $1000 below invoice before any and all incentives/ conquest cash etc. prove it by posting copies of some legit deal paperwork. I am willing to bet you cannot coz that doesnt exist either.
> 
> Once again, I would like to thank awesome dealers such as Greg, Jon and Will who go the extra mile to make our BMW buying process memorable. Cheers!!!


Current ride from Park Ave BMW. Net was 500 over in Dec 2010 after 2,500 rebate, buy rate and no mark up. Prior two cars from Hunterdon around same terms. Would've went there but my CA moved on to dealership in south NJ and not worth the ride.

Entertaining thread


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

iwantone said:


> Don't know about JMK, but try to go buy a car at Open Road. They are the sleaziest [email protected]#$#
> 
> Finalize a deal and share the numbers...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I997 using Bimmer


Where do you buy your BMWs? I agree Open Road is sleazy. Picked up a 5 series at a price that blew me away compared to price shopping other BMW stores. But you get incredible pricing there.

If you have some negotiating skills, you can easily find $1000 under invoice deals. Check multiple threads on E90Post.com to support my comments. My 2011 328xi was leased in October 2010!!!. And it was $1,000 under invoice, and another $1,000 for the test drive and they picked up my last two months of my 2008 three series. No other incentives at that time that were made public!! Who knows what else was there. Deal should be better today and with loyalty and year end push, and they are.

So, here are my deal numbers from October 2010

2011 328 xi base 35,650 
Space gray 550
Sport pkg 1,650
Paddle shifters 100
Steptronic 1,375
Fold down rear seats 475
Navigation 2,100
Sat radio 350
Destination 850
Total Sug Retail price $45,965

Selling price:
Cost of above $42,320
Adv & Training 500
Below cost discount (1,000)
Test Drive Coupon (1,000)
NJ Sales tax @7% 1,187
Net cost to be cap't $41993

Are you still with me.

Lease for 36 months, 15k a year
Residual 61%
Money Factor .00076 (7 MSDs)
Normal inceptions paid
Monthly lease $438

Now this deal is October 2010. With year end push and new F30s almost at the dealer's front door, do you think the deals will be even better? I would suggest under $400 a month for a 15k lease with all the year end push incentives.

Is this transparent enough?

And another one for you to ponder.

My brother just signed a lease for a 2012 328 Convert. White on Beige. Premium, Nav. 10K lease, 36 months with no money down and 7 MSDs for $499 (with taxes baked into the deal). That deal reflected all the incentives and year end pushes.


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

ckm1515 said:


> Current ride from Park Ave BMW. Net was 500 over in Dec 2010 after 2,500 rebate, buy rate and no mark up. Prior two cars from Hunterdon around same terms. Would've went there but my CA moved on to dealership in south NJ and not worth the ride.
> 
> Entertaining thread


Agree...I am being entertained too.

This might be a left coast vs right coast thing.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

For those that don't feel like reading two pages of drama, here is a summary.

1) Jon is offering a fair and transparent deal to bimmerfest members

2) Dealers in NYC Metro (mostly the ones in the Dirty Jerz) whore out cars. There are tons of dealers in a very small geographic area, and you can can probably get a very aggressive deal but you will also have to deal with their general shadiness. You might be able to get a better deal than Jon's, but if you are a West Coaster that obviously means a trip to Jerz.

3) mjsbmw wants to show everyone just how much he knows about car dealer operations. 


p.s. mjs-- why would you expect a salesperson to know what their dealer's fixed absorption is? If you know as much as you suggest you do, you'd clearly realize that fact is far out scope for what a salesperson would know. You might as well go an ask them what their parts obsolescence was last month, or how much the electric bill was...


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

Jon Shafer said:


> In context, whenever I refer to the "back end" of a deal, I am talking specifically about F&I Profit. $800/car is the mean.
> 
> In my deal above it is exactly $140.00.
> 
> ...


Jon,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I see that you are one of the moderators (and founder) and you appreciate the value of robust discussions. That is what makes forums of value.

We can take this discussion off line if you would like. I have read previous threads (albeit a bit vintage), on the money the owners receive for every car they sell, as long as the CSI is not in the tank. And being on the sales side, you do not see one penny of that when your commission is being calculated.

But some stores see the value of selling one more unit to achieve certain sales numbers and knowing that BMW NA will pay 3-4% on cost for that incremental unit. You appreciate the difference between invoice and cost.

I understand your interest to help your F&I folks. Tough job. The F&I business is very different today as compared to years past. Years ago, the highest paid person at the dealership (except for the principals) were F&I folks. And at a BMW store, with warranty and maintenance included on new cars, not an easy job to pull off a $100k salary, although many do. But with tons of after sale products now in demand (penetration for wheel and tire insurance is up big time), they are doing better.

I think you know one of my hot buttons. For me, it is the adding to acqiuisition fees (aren't they high enough?) or doc fees over $300, or padding the MF. My general philosphy is that if you can get from the "other guy" along with a higher profit on the sale, it makes sense. The origins of the car business was based on horse trading, negotiating deals and that not everyone ends of paying the same. Attempts to change that practice (Saturn) with one price selling strategy failed. When I hear "we are losing money on this deal", I wonder why they are taking it. If you think your business is tough, talk to a doctor who is now being paid less for a surgery by managed care than what it cost to change the oil on his Lexus.

Thanks for keeping the Forum alive. And I appreciate your style of handling this open forum.


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

SARAFIL said:


> p.s. mjs-- why would you expect a salesperson to know what their dealer's fixed absorption is? If you know as much as you suggest you do, you'd clearly realize that fact is far out scope for what a salesperson would know. ...


Hmmm. Interesting view of the sales person scope of knowledge. I am assuming that better sales folks know how their store operates.

I bet Jon knows the profit centers of his store and how his store is successful. My comment is not about salespersons. It is about Will who makes comments that the only profit the store earns. And I am paying for Training and MACO charges so I hope the sales staff knows more.

I do agree with you that they should not know about electric bills. Your definition of what a sales person should know is somewhat insulting to their knowledge of the business.

I am not trying to impress anyone. Just trying to tell Will that I know as much if not more about the world in which he operates.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> It is industry standard (not a dealer or manufacturer choice) that any mark up on interest rate or lease fees is split between the dealer and the bank. The percentage will vary a bit, but 70/30 is about average.


There are a few lenders that pay 100% reserve on finance deals, and "flats" on everything else. At least there used to be. 
If BMWFS could/would pay dealers a flat comm. at the buy rate, that would be sweet, and would certainly solve a lot of this..
I know, I am dreaming..

:brent:


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

petriej said:


> Can we lock this thread already? No new information since page 2...


Something truly worthwhile to add will surely come up before this month is over..



I have to admit, I never expected to get flamed on my own board (buy a BMW owner no less) for a post like the original...

I edited it. Our normal ad deal is just as good... I just thought I would try something novel and creative. I am moving forward now.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Jon Shafer said:


> There are a few lenders that pay 100% reserve on finance deals, and "flats" on everything else. At least there used to be.
> If BMWFS could/would pay dealers a flat comm. at the buy rate, that would be sweet, and would certainly solve a lot of this..
> I know, I am dreaming..
> 
> :brent:


For a while when I was at MINI, they were trying out a couple of flat options... at buy rate, you got a flat and at buy rate +0.30% on a retail contract they would pay you a double flat fee. You could also reduce the buy rate by the same amount if you were willing to waive your flat (i.e. trying to match a rate to convert an outside finance to in-house to roll a car and possibly get some aftermarket).


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## petriej (Jul 29, 2010)

Jon Shafer said:


> Something truly worthwhile to add will surely come up before this month is over..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very level headed to let it continue, I applaud that. Have to take the good with the bad, it seems.


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## sdg1871 (Mar 9, 2009)

Jon Shafer said:


> Something truly worthwhile to add will surely come up before this month is over..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jon, the reality is that many people out there really believe that car dealers should work for nothing. Me: all my BMW deals (2003 540i M Sport, 2009 550i M Sport and 2012 550i xDrive M Sport) have been $750 over invoice minus incentives, base BMW money factor and no acq fee markup. My deals have all taken 2 minutes to negotiate. To me, that is a fair profit for the dealer and we each take up a minimum of each other's time.

I can relate to being in a profession where the public thinks I should make nothing. It's absurd.


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## bimmer335is (Nov 27, 2010)

iwantone said:


> Please note - Not all east coast (read NJ) buyers think Will, Jon and Greg (CA fest sponsors) are thugs...most of us prefer to buy from you guys and do an ED/ PCD - just to avoid the other 95% of car dealerships and their cheap tricks.
> 
> mjsbmw - care to point me in the direction of 1 NJ dealer who will work with the transparency that these guys do? I bet you cannot, coz they dont exist. If you are indeed able to get a deal with $1000 below invoice before any and all incentives/ conquest cash etc. prove it by posting copies of some legit deal paperwork. I am willing to bet you cannot coz that doesnt exist either.
> 
> Once again, I would like to thank awesome dealers such as Greg, Jon and Will who go the extra mile to make our BMW buying process memorable. Cheers!!!


I concur. mjsbmw, I will bet $100. If I lose, I will give you $100 as a xmas gift. I just don't buy a gift for myself. mjsbmw, you just need to give me your name, a check will arrive in 5 days. However, if you lose, you need to apologize to Jon and Will. You paperwork has to posted on this thread (you can black out your name) to prove that NJ dealer offers 1000 below invoice. 
On a side note, I have never met Greg/Jon/Will. I live in TX. However, I do honestly believe them. They offer the best price in west coast and best customer service according to what I have read in last one year bimmerfest threads. That's a lot of threads in over 365 days.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

sdg1871 said:


> Jon, the reality is that many people out there really believe that car dealers should work for nothing. Me: all my BMW deals (2003 540i M Sport, 2009 550i M Sport and 2012 550i xDrive M Sport) have been $750 over invoice minus incentives, base BMW money factor and no acq fee markup. My deals have all taken 2 minutes to negotiate. To me, that is a fair profit for the dealer and we each take up a minimum of each other's time.
> 
> I can relate to being in a profession where the public thinks I should make nothing. It's absurd.


This only bothered me for a bit. Having worked as a Marriage & Family Therapist for the last seven years since giving up my GSM position at Cutter BMW, I have gotten pretty good at reframing issues to see the positive and not let the negative keep me down. As I've said before, I can't lose. I win no matter what. Every time that someone obtains a useful piece of information from my website, or makes a friend on my website, I win. I win when they come back to Bimmerfest.com, I win when they share their experiences with a friend, I win when they buy a part from a site sponsor, and I win if they buy a BMW from a competitor. What took me by surprise is that a BMW owner was calling me out (and not another BMW dealer!).. 

Whether it's interacting in the forums, or getting to know my buyers online, I enjoy the interaction, and appreciate the authentic personal relationships. I shouldn't be surprised when something like this happens. The population of Bimmerfest members is a normal distribution. As hard as I try to please, not everyone is going to appreciate it.

Thanks for your support!

:thumbup:



bimmer335is said:


> I concur. mjsbmw, I will bet $100. If I lose, I will give you $100 as a xmas gift. I just don't buy a gift for myself. mjsbmw, you just need to give me your name, a check will arrive in 5 days. However, if you lose, you need to apologize to Jon and Will. You paperwork has to posted on this thread (you can black out your name) to prove that NJ dealer offers 1000 below invoice.
> On a side note, I have never met Greg/Jon/Will. I live in TX. However, I do honestly believe them. They offer the best price in west coast and best customer service according to what I have read in last one year bimmerfest threads. That's a lot of threads in over 365 days.


*mjsbmw* raised some valid points. There are some who believe a dealer should make as little as possible. Car dealers, empirically speaking, are about as beloved as horse theives and PI lawyers. Certainly, the "pros" of the past earned the reputation. I especially can't fault someone who has been burned before. Who knows how I would feel about car dealers if I hadn't spent the majority of my adult working life in the car business?

:dunno:

Again, I do appreciate the support of those of you who value the efforts Bimmerfest CAs.

:thumbup:


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## JustinTJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Jon Shafer said:


> Again, I do appreciate the support of those of you who value the efforts Bimmerfest CAs.
> 
> :thumbup:


Me too, because they give their time for the good of the community. Sure they make sales as well, but they work hard for them. The sales originating from here for most, if not all, are also minis.

I for one, am not about to worry about $200-500. Especially when the ease of contact and knowledge gained saves me thousands in the endgame.


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## 01Byte (Jun 22, 2003)

JustinTJ said:


> I for one, am not about to worry about $200-500. Especially when the ease of contact and knowledge gained saves me thousands in the endgame.


I couldn't agree more. I have always been fascinated by people who will spend days on end searching out for that one elusive dealer who will discount another $200 bucks.

For me, if a CA offers me full transparency I am willing to pay a little more just to save myself a headache.

My last two deals took 30 minutes each and most of that time was spent building the car I wanted. Now that's the kind of service that puts a smile on my face.


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## BravoMikeWiskey (May 28, 2007)

Jon Shafer said:


> I think I realized what made me ill...I never thought I'd see the day when a BMW dealer would have to lose money to retail a new vehicle. The bonus money some refer to as holdback is not considered Gross Profit in the Sales Department. ...


Bayerische Motoren Werke Aktiengesellschaf's (BMW Group) mission is clearly defined: "by 2020 the BMW Group is the world's leading provider of premium products and premium services for individual mobility". Which means a lot more cars built and sold than the current ~1.3MM BMW cars a year. Who knows what the number will be 8 short years down the road, but one thing is for sure: a dramatic increase in supply of cars with a corresponding lowered, or none-existing 'front end' margin for retailers. Currently, that doesn't mean, however, that the dealer/retailer isn't making money on the car overall. Only those who derive their commissions from the front-end of the deal aren't making much money. Hopefully, there's enough 'heavy' cars that a salesperson can make money on to be able to pay for his dry cleaning and electric bills...

But the trend is not very favorable to the little guy on the front lines, as most salesperson's year-end W-2 forms will attest.

I'll even be bold enough to make a prediction: in not too distant future, there will be very few, if not at all, independent dealers. Premium brands will revert back to manufacturers for a tightly controlled, vertically integrated and uniform sales/service model. The example of this model has already been showcased by an unprecedented success of one premium brand manufacturer whose brand is recognized world-over.

Every manufacturer in the world is currently studying, or should be studying, this model and trying to figure out a way to implement it. As soon as one trail-blazes the way, the rest will follow along...

Change is good and it stimulates progress, but a highly trained, skilled, disciplined sales person will always be in high demand and very low supply, regardless of how the industry is shaped. The 'less' skilled ones, not so much.


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## The BoatMan (Apr 2, 2002)

iwantone said:


> ...care to point me in the direction of 1 NJ dealer who will work with the transparency that these guys do?....


I agree, not many in NJ but I have to give a shout out to Ivan Romero at BMW of Bloomfield. He is one of the good ones in NJ. He is a board sponsor here as well. No markup on MF or ACQ. Full disclosure on all incentives and great pricing.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

BravoMikeWiskey said:


> Bayerische Motoren Werke Aktiengesellschaf's (BMW Group) mission is clearly defined: "by 2020 the BMW Group is the world's leading provider of premium products and premium services for individual mobility". Which means a lot more cars built and sold than the current ~1.3MM BMW cars a year. Who knows what the number will be 8 short years down the road, but one thing is for sure: a dramatic increase in supply of cars with a corresponding lowered, or none-existing 'front end' margin for retailers. Currently, that doesn't mean, however, that the dealer/retailer isn't making money on the car overall. Only those who derive their commissions from the front-end of the deal aren't making much money. Hopefully, there's enough 'heavy' cars that a salesperson can make money on to be able to pay for his dry cleaning and electric bills...
> 
> But the trend is not very favorable to the little guy on the front lines, as most salesperson's year-end W-2 forms will attest.
> 
> ...


Manufacturers buying back all their dealers in the US won't happen, at least while you and I are alive. Way too many laws in way too many states built to protect the franchise system.

Chrysler just got forced by the state of CA to sell their "test bed" corporate store in the LA area to a private operator. I think they were trying to do as you suggest (see if they could build an Apple-like experience) and the state said "hell no" and they were forced to sell (at a big loss, from what I hear).

The only state that I know that is flexible on mfr-owned dealers is NY, and that has come to be because of the ginormous operating costs in Manhattan which have resulted in mfr-run dealers being the only option.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> Manufacturers buying back all their dealers in the US won't happen, at least while you and I are alive. Way too many laws in way too many states built to protect the franchise system.
> 
> Chrysler just got forced by the state of CA to sell their "test bed" corporate store in the LA area to a private operator. I think they were trying to do as you suggest (see if they could build an Apple-like experience) and the state said "hell no" and they were forced to sell (at a big loss, from what I hear).
> 
> The only state that I know that is flexibleeManhattan which have resulted in mfr-run dealers being the only option.


Interesting. "South Bay BMW" (pre PK) was a company-run BMW Center back in the late 90's. The former DP, Vasek Polak
passed away, and Jim Ryan, Manager of the Western Region ran that store until it became South Bay BMW. They did a good job.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

FWIW, I blew out a 2011 328i for $1k under invoice recently for a Bimmerfest member. That was the price _*before*_ applicable incentives. This was the oldest one we had (too many days on the lot), not some one-off, funky color/configuration, but a primo specification! There are several others in similar situation that I need to find a good home for. For prices this low, the car must come from dealer stock, and delivery must occur at BMW Santa Barbara. If you are in the area and still on the fence, don't miss the opportunity to absolutely SCORE a new BMW 3 Series at historic record low prices...

:supdude:


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

Jon Shafer said:


> FWIW, I blew out a 2011 328i for $1k under invoice recently for a Bimmerfest member. That was the price _*before*_ applicable incentives. This was the oldest one we had (too many days on the lot), not some one-off, funky color/configuration, but a primo specification! There are several others in similar situation that I need to find a good home for. For prices this low, the car must come from dealer stock, and delivery must occur at BMW Santa Barbara. If you are in the area and still on the fence, don't miss the opportunity to absolutely SCORE a new BMW 3 Series at historic record low prices...
> 
> :supdude:


Jon - I am glad you did not take my comments personally. Although several on this thread thought I was simply BS that there are dealers out there that are selling for $1,000 under invoice. It does happen when a dealer wants to move units.

BMW deals are getting absolutely crazy, beyond my expectations (if that is possible). BMW NA is on a mission (as well as Mercedes).

Keep going on pushing out those units. And thank you and several others for the contributions to our knowledge. And why are there no more 750 hybrids out there? I am still trying to understand those low monthly leases.


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

bimmer335is said:


> I concur. mjsbmw, I will bet $100. If I lose, I will give you $100 as a xmas gift. I just don't buy a gift for myself. mjsbmw, you just need to give me your name, a check will arrive in 5 days. However, if you lose, you need to apologize to Jon and Will. You paperwork has to posted on this thread (you can black out your name) to prove that NJ dealer offers 1000 below invoice.
> On a side note, I have never met Greg/Jon/Will. I live in TX. However, I do honestly believe them. They offer the best price in west coast and best customer service according to what I have read in last one year bimmerfest threads. That's a lot of threads in over 365 days.


I have a thought since your comments are basically suggesting the deal I outlined in Post #36 to this thread is not real. I am not posting my contract on this thread. Too much info to be on the internet.

However, lets have Jon verify my details. If Jon agrees, we will speak on the phone, and I will provide him my VIN and he can look up the contract with BMW Financial and confirm or not the numbers mentioned in Post #36 to you. I do not BS. But it seems like you do not understand that some dealers are ok selling for $1K under invoice when they want to hit numbers and move product. Including Jon.

And I do not need your $100. Give it to charity. God Bless.

Lastly, I agree that the information provided by Jon, Greg and Will are valuable to all of us. They are valuable to the community, even when fees are padded. 

Thanks.


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## iwantone (Jun 2, 2005)

mjsbmw said:


> Jon - I am glad you did not take my comments personally. Although several on this thread thought I was simply BS that there are dealers out there that are selling for $1,000 under invoice. It does happen when a dealer wants to move units.
> 
> BMW deals are getting absolutely crazy, beyond my expectations (if that is possible). BMW NA is on a mission (as well as Mercedes).
> 
> Keep going on pushing out those units. And thank you and several others for the contributions to our knowledge. And why are there no more 750 hybrids out there? I am still trying to understand those low monthly leases.


The 750iAH's low monthly leases are due to -
- $7500 eco credit + $3500 + 2500
- MSD's
- ED
- good residual

There are no more 750iAH's 'coz many members of the forum put in their orders for this deal of the year (incl. me). All the best.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

*We have a 2011 335d advertised for $8,500.00 from MSRP* (Sorry, just one at this exact price).

*VIN #BA950564* which is Jet Black / Beige Dakota Leather Premium Pkg., and iPod/USB as only options.

*MSRP*: $48,075.00 
*Take Away Price*: $39,575.00

Since it is "on ad" I can't hold it per se. However, if you are serious and can take delivery in SB right away,
I can take a CC deposit and hold it til you get here.


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