# Improving turn-in - '01 E46 Coupe



## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

norihaga said:


> So your advice is, go with an E30 M3?


  :dunno:


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## Mike48162 (Oct 17, 2003)

*H&R bar etc.*

[QUOTE went with H&R front from Turner...looking forward to it.[/QUOTE]

With the new front bar, new alignment, and some playing with the tire pressures (i.e. higher in front), the car should drive much better.

I have an H&R bar on a stock 04 sport package coupe...the softest setting hole will be plenty. Using the stiffer setting is too much without a heavier rear bar.

If you are getting a three year alignment deal (I had that when I had my Eclipse GSX) you might decide to be a bit less aggressive (than our rookie said) with the front toe out if you are in a winter climate. With toe out (I used to run almost 1/4 out total on the Eclipse in the front, even more in the back), the car will REALLY wander in standing water or slick surfaces. I'd suggest setting it a zero in front for now, and see if you like it. Note: if you take out the camber pins in front (you should do this before the alignment, do a search) to get a little more camber, this will give you less toe in.

Eclipse vs. 330: Spent the first part of the 04 year getting used to a one wheel drive BMW vs. the 4 wheel drive GSX. Both cars will teach and reteach the lesson of 'slow in, fast out'. BMW brakes are way better...it's amazing how late you can begin braking compared to the Eclipse even with Porterfield pads. Driving at over 8 tenths the Eclipse really made you pay attention, and any mistakes made were permanent; the BMW is forgiving and drivable up near 10/10's...mistakes are more correctable in the BMW than the Eclipse. So for example, make a mistake on an autox course in a Eclipse and it will cost a 1/2 second (i.e. forever), with the BMW you can save things and it'll only cost you one or two tenths.

Give us the report when you get things done!


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Mike48162 said:


> With the new front bar, new alignment, and some playing with the tire pressures (i.e. higher in front), the car should drive much better.
> 
> I have an H&R bar on a stock 04 sport package coupe...the softest setting hole will be plenty. Using the stiffer setting is too much without a heavier rear bar.
> 
> ...


Definitely...though I doubt it will be news to anyone. I'll start with the softest setting.

Supposedly the alignment deal is for the car's lifetime (!). Those poor bastards. So you think ask them to set up the car with -1o camber, zero toe in/out on the front? That means standard set up for our cars includes some toe-in as standard? I have a 45 minute commute, so I definitely don't want anything that's going to be scary on a snowy highway.

Interesting to hear that the GSX was a handful. My 3G was a *****cat, so much so that I stopped doing trackdays in it because it got boring. Short of driving that car into a wall, nothing you could do with the controls would make it do anything other than gentle understeer. On the road, you could drift it easily and it was lots of fun. The limits were a lot lower than my 330, but it was much easier to drive - you just had to get the nose pointed in approximately the right direction and it would go round the corner.

So how much stuff broke on the GSX? Was the AWD at least reliable? 

Ok, why the "****" did the forum's engine automatically substitute five asterixes for p u s s y cat ? That is "****ing" lame.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamM3 said:


> my first piece of advice would be not to listen to rookies :neener:


I'll let my rookie season speak for itself, thank you very much. 

EDIT:
By the way, I only give advise on stuff that I know actually works. I've autox'd my car with the stock alignment, with zero toe and max camber up front, and with 1/8" toe-out and max camber up front... and I can tell you that 1/8" toe-out will dramatically help turn-in. I don't disagree with the other posts, but the alignment is the cheapest, quickest and IMO the most effective.

Ask GH Sharp what alignment he's running on his 330Ci.


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

I'll probably try the 1/8" after winter weather is over, if it's likely to make the car very nervous in slippery conditions. I have a long commute, and often early enough that the highways aren't clear.



Andy said:


> I'll let my rookie season speak for itself, thank you very much.
> 
> EDIT:
> By the way, I only give advise on stuff that I know actually works. I've autox'd my car with the stock alignment, with zero toe and max camber up front, and with 1/8" toe-out and max camber up front... and I can tell you that 1/8" toe-out will dramatically help turn-in. I don't disagree with the other posts, but the alignment is the cheapest, quickest and IMO the most effective.
> ...


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

norihaga said:


> I'll probably try the 1/8" after winter weather is over, if it's likely to make the car very nervous in slippery conditions. I have a long commute, and often early enough that the highways aren't clear.


Yes, I'll admit the 1/8" toe-out will cause the car to tramline a little more and if you're not careful, if you sneeze, you'll be changing lanes&#8230; but that's what quick steering response / turn-in will give you. 

I have camber plates on my car now. For the street I run -2 degrees of camber up front. For the track I set it to -3 degrees. Adjusting the camber equates to about 1/16" toe-out on the street and 1/8" toe-out for the track.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Andy said:


> .. the alignment is the cheapest, quickest and IMO the most effective.


true, but leave it to a rookie to not also mention the rear alignment  :stickpoke


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamM3 said:


> true, but leave it to a rookie to not also mention the rear alignment  :stickpoke


I've found that an aggressive front alignment will help turn-in and a rear alignment changes how the car will rotate once you've already started the turn-in. I do agree, for optimal handling, you want a front and rear alignment that will work well together. I was only giving advise on what he was asking about, which was how to improve turn-in and steering response.


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Andy said:


> I've found that an aggressive front alignment will help turn-in and a rear alignment changes how the car will rotate once you've already started the turn-in. I do agree, for optimal handling, you want a front and rear alignment that will work well together. I was only giving advise on what he was asking about, which was how to improve turn-in and steering response.


Seems like it rotates quite a bit.... 

Probably a result of not having learned to drive RWD cars properly, after 3 years abusing my FWD barge.


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## Mike48162 (Oct 17, 2003)

*GSX report*



norihaga said:


> Interesting to hear that the GSX was a handful.
> So how much stuff broke on the GSX? Was the AWD at least reliable?


The 'handful' comment was primarily about on an autox course. The car was quick and competitive, you could toss it around and let the AWD dig you out of corners, but if you made a mistake it was a 3300 pound front wheel drive car on very skinny wheels. Also the Type R's would have it for lunch on courses with faster sections as above 5000 rpms (45mph) you started to run out of torque just when their VTEC was kicking in. Atleast that's my excuse.

On the street at 8 tenths, 2g AWD's even in fairly stock form were impressively quick rides. The driving position is excellent. On the highway in 5th gear, the engine turbo power range (3-5K) was 70-90mph...never had to shift but you could be gone in a blink. With 8 inch wide wheels, 235/40 tires, and adjustable Koni shocks...they would have sold tons of them. Mine was a '97. I sold it last year with 75K for $10,000...primarily because it was in almost like new shape (garaged in winters) and was basically stock (not all modded and cut up, not street raced etc). Girls love the looks, and boys loved how it went.

Actually I found the drive train (left in stock form) to be reliable and forgiving. There were a number of recalls (transfer case, front ball joints, seat backs), and annoyances with things not working on the interior (e.g. radio, windows, mirrors). But I actually got over 60k miles on the original clutch with 4-5 summers of autox launching!


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Skinny wheels, tell me about it. My GT came with the 6.5" GSX rims. 

Pity there will never be another good Eclipse...I suspect Mitsubishi will be toast by the time 2009 rolls around and the next Eclipse is due. 



Mike48162 said:


> The 'handful' comment was primarily about on an autox course. The car was quick and competitive, you could toss it around and let the AWD dig you out of corners, but if you made a mistake it was a 3300 pound front wheel drive car on very skinny wheels. Also the Type R's would have it for lunch on courses with faster sections as above 5000 rpms (45mph) you started to run out of torque just when their VTEC was kicking in. Atleast that's my excuse.
> 
> On the street at 8 tenths, 2g AWD's even in fairly stock form were impressively quick rides. The driving position is excellent. On the highway in 5th gear, the engine turbo power range (3-5K) was 70-90mph...never had to shift but you could be gone in a blink. With 8 inch wide wheels, 235/40 tires, and adjustable Koni shocks...they would have sold tons of them. Mine was a '97. I sold it last year with 75K for $10,000...primarily because it was in almost like new shape (garaged in winters) and was basically stock (not all modded and cut up, not street raced etc). Girls love the looks, and boys loved how it went.
> 
> Actually I found the drive train (left in stock form) to be reliable and forgiving. There were a number of recalls (transfer case, front ball joints, seat backs), and annoyances with things not working on the interior (e.g. radio, windows, mirrors). But I actually got over 60k miles on the original clutch with 4-5 summers of autox launching!


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## Mike48162 (Oct 17, 2003)

*E46 rear alignment issues.*



Andy said:


> I've found that an aggressive front alignment will help turn-in and a rear alignment changes how the car will rotate once you've already started the turn-in. I was only giving advise on what he was asking about, which was how to improve turn-in and steering response.


Agree with your comment about front alignment helps turn in, and rear alignment adjustments affect more mid corner/exit maneuvers i.e. how much you want the rear end under you (or not!).

For stock E46's though I've heard different versions about what works for rear alignment, and as spring comes I will be researching. Some say toe out to get that back end a-walking to help rotate the car, others say go with more toe in to stay on that tight line and help get the power down on corner exit. I'm thinking that part of this 'disagreement' may relate to autox vs. track usage...the back end loose at 30mph is alot different than at 80mph. we'll see.


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

Mike48162 said:


> Agree with your comment about front alignment helps turn in, and rear alignment adjustments affect more mid corner/exit maneuvers i.e. how much you want the rear end under you (or not!).
> 
> For stock E46's though I've heard different versions about what works for rear alignment, and as spring comes I will be researching. Some say toe out to get that back end a-walking to help rotate the car, others say go with more toe in to stay on that tight line and help get the power down on corner exit. I'm thinking that part of this 'disagreement' may relate to autox vs. track usage...the back end loose at 30mph is alot different than at 80mph. we'll see.


Rear alignment changes will have an effect on turn-in, though not as much as the front. I don't see why the E46 would be a whole lot different from the E36. That said, I noticed a difference in turn in when I decreased my rear toe from 1/8" total to zero and went from -1.5 degrees negative camber to -.7 degrees in the rear.  Now, when you get on the power mid-corner, THAT is when you notice a HUGE difference from the rear alignment. Instead of an understeering pig, you have a pig that dives to the apex. :rofl:


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