# So You Think Buying Electric Over Gas Will Save You Money? Think Again!



## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

One of the common beliefs surrounding Electric cars is that you don't need to buy fuel anymore and that very quickly negates any added costs to the vehicle. Thus making purchasing an electric car both an emotionally appealing purchase and an economically sensible purchase as well.

Well, why don't we have a look at the numbers and see exactly how long it will take to reimburse these costs.

First, some assumptions
-Gas cost is $3/gallon
-Electricity cost is $0.08/kWh
-Recharging Batteries is 80% efficient

Now the vehicles and their quick specs:

Nissan Leaf
$32,750 -> Corrected to $25,280 thanks to the American tax payer
24kWh battery
100 miles per charge
$2200 Quick Charger

Chevrolet Volt
~$40,000 -> Corrected to $32,500 again thanks to the American tax payer
16kWh battery -> Run at 8.8kWh to ensure battery life
40 miles per charge
~$2000 Quick Charger (note, prices not revealed, but since it has to store less of a charge I allotted a smaller price tag.)

Tesla Model S
$57,400 -> Corrected to $49,900
~90kWh battery
300 miles per charge
~$5000 Quick Charger, (price not released but the thing is gonna be massive to store enough energy to charge a ~90kWh battery)

And their competition...

Toyota Prius (Hybrid Competitor)
$22,800
50mpg Combined

Ford Fiesta (Economy Car Competitor)
$13,320
33mpg Combined

BMW 5 Series (Model S's luxury Competitor)
$45,950
25mpg Combined

Now for the calculations...

Nissan Leaf
24kWh/(80% charge efficiency)=30kWh to charge
30kWh*($0.08/kWh)=$2.40 Per Charge
$2.40/(100 miles)=$0.024 Per Mile

Chevrolet Volt
8.8kWh/(80% charge efficiency)=11kWh to charge
11kWh*($0.08/kWh)=$0.88 Per Charge
$0.44/(40 miles)=$0.022 Per Mile

Tesla Model S
90kWh/(80% charge efficiency)=112.5kWh to charge
112.5kWh*($0.08/kWh)=$9 Per Charge
$9/(300 miles)=$0.030 Per Mile

Toyota Prius
($3/gallon)/(50miles/gallon)=$0.060 Per Mile

Ford Fiesta
($3/gallon)/(33miles/gallon)=$0.091 Per Mile

BMW 5 Series
($3/gallon)/(25miles/gallon)=$0.12 Per Mile

Clearly the Electric cars do hold an advantage for every mile they drive, but how long will it take to get their fuel economy advantage back?

Check The Graph Below.

Things to note from it
-The quickest payback is the Tesla when compared to the 5 series, but this only happens after a whopping 100,000 miles.
-The Nissan Leaf beats the Prius in monetary terms after about 140,000 miles.
-Then the Nissan Leaf beats the Fiesta after a about 250,000 miles.
-The Chevy Volt, Ford Fiesta, and Toyota Prius, all hit the same cost to own just over 300,000 miles.

Unfortunately, the jury is still out on the lifespan of these new batteries. But from my perspective, electric cars are feasible this day and age, but they still haven't beaten good old fashioned gasoline.

_Source - http://www.autospies.com/news/So-Yo...er-Gas-Will-Save-You-Money-Think-Again-55024/_


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

Very nice analysis Tim.

I'd venture to say that most of these batteries won't last much past 100,000 miles at which point the water gets muddied even more. I'd be interesting if you'd include a 335d in there, since it gets such good gas mileage.


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## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

this analysis has been around for several years, nothing new here. It takes many years and miles to make up the cost.

I would buy one for "political" or social reasons. What do I mean? I mean never having to pay another dime to Middle Eastern, Arabic countries.

It has the potential to destablize the region and take away their wealth. We'd burn our own coal and/or use nuclear.

Then we can put them back into the stone age and they can throw rocks at each for the next 2,000 years.

Islam, the muslims, the terrorists, the never ending conflict with the Jews, etc. etc.

I can stop sending my money there. The oil producing middle east countries have more money than they know what to do with, and I want to stop my dependence and reliance on their oil.


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

pilotman said:


> I would buy one for "political" or social reasons. What do I mean? I mean never having to pay another dime to Middle Eastern, Arabic countries.
> 
> It has the potential to destablize the region and take away their wealth. We'd burn our own coal and/or use nuclear.


+1. One doesn't buy a pure electric car right now based purely on a cost. On a pure cost analysis, one doesn't buy a NEW car at all either.

Of course, its still hard to beat "cheap" gasoline. But honestly, how cheap is gasoline? How much will it cost to clean up the gulf? How much are the wars in the middle east costing us? Double the price of gas (it was nearly there not that long ago anyways) and the electric cars instantly make a lot more sense.


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## drivinfaster (Nov 24, 2007)

at first i thought that this was about stoves...:dunno:


df


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## 6 Brit (Jan 19, 2009)

cool!
I have personally never liked electric cars for their lack of sound...it's just weird. Good to know I can actually have some correct reasoning behind my dislike for them


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## jkp1187 (Jul 2, 2008)

cwinter said:


> Very nice analysis Tim.
> 
> I'd venture to say that most of these batteries won't last much past 100,000 miles at which point the water gets muddied even more.


You're likely incorrect on that assumption. The Prius has been around for over ten years now. There should be quite a few of them past 100,000 miles by now. I have yet to hear any reports of massive numbers of battery failures. Have you seen any?


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## jkp1187 (Jul 2, 2008)

pilotman said:


> I can stop sending my money there. The oil producing middle east countries have more money than they know what to do with, and I want to stop my dependence and reliance on their oil.


Quite. To say nothing of Chavez, too. We'll never be able to do without oil - it just is too useful a commodity - but I think people who are trying to find a way for us to use less of it while retaining the technological advantages we have today should be applauded.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

drivinfaster said:


> at first i thought that this was about stoves...:dunno:
> 
> df


I thought that it was about grills.


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## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

pilotman said:


> this analysis has been around for several years, nothing new here. It takes many years and miles to make up the cost.
> 
> I would buy one for "political" or social reasons. What do I mean? I mean never having to pay another dime to Middle Eastern, Arabic countries.
> 
> ...


:stupid:


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## Robsa (Jan 20, 2005)

You can do without the $2000 charger. It takes longer to charge but most who would consider an electric car aren't commuting very far anyway. As previously said, the batteries on the hybrids have been extremely durable.


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## MarcusSDCA (Jan 14, 2004)

pilotman said:


> this analysis has been around for several years, nothing new here. It takes many years and miles to make up the cost.
> 
> I would buy one for "political" or social reasons. What do I mean? I mean never having to pay another dime to Middle Eastern, Arabic countries.
> 
> ...


Right on! This is exactly why I have abandoned BMWs for leaner machines. When the BMWNA suits pull their heads out of their azzes and start shipping us some 4 cyl. 320d cars or similar I will remain a happy Prius driver. BMWs waste fuel....and the 335d is just too much engine and $$ at close to 50K with goodies.


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

jkp1187 said:


> You're likely incorrect on that assumption. The Prius has been around for over ten years now. There should be quite a few of them past 100,000 miles by now. I have yet to hear any reports of massive numbers of battery failures. *Have you seen any?*


I have not but I have also not looked for it.

I know a mechanic working for a large Toyota Dealership here. I'll ask if he's seen battery replacements yet. Do recall him telling me that getting the battery replaced will set you back near $10k...


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Robsa said:


> You can do without the $2000 charger. It takes longer to charge but most who would consider an electric car aren't commuting very far anyway.


Several days for a Nissan Leaf on a standard 120V US wall socket. But if your commute is only 10-20 miles it shouldn't be too bad all. Even better if you can charge at work.

But it makes it all but impossible to do a 40 mile commute.


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## compusatman (Apr 14, 2010)

In 1977 history was made as the most honest president ever to take office was sworn in. In 1979 he made his history by creating what was then the "oil prohibition" repreive. In 1979 I saw a future as a Solar Engineer. That future dissolved as I was brainwashed by a man named Ronald Reagan. That was the end of the new beginning. Now fully 30 years later we as a nation are in deep with our relationship of sleeping with Islam. And all in the name of oil. Yes, I like to drive the BMW. But if Jimmy Carter had his way every home would have been a solar home by now and there would be massive utility companies producing electricity from wind, solar and water. I have a friend who has a cabin in the south west Virginia mountains in the middle of coal fields that is completely off the grid. With two wind mills, complete solar infrastructure, and geothermal heating and cooling. His problem? Getting the right batteries. NASA won't sell them. Yes, they have them...they just won't release them. These are the new oil. Jimmy Carter stood to destroy the oil companies. Of course George Sr. would not let that happen. Reagan made sure. For those of you who were but children then here is a tidbit...http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0503-22.htm. Maybe our transportation is a bit far off yet. But everything else is well within grasp. That is if you can afford it.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

I've done the same estimate but with UK prices for the cars, fuel and road tax. UK road tax is based on tailpipe carbon emissions.

Electricity at £0.10 kwh
Petrol and Diesel at £4.90 per US gallon
12,000 miles / year. 
UK owners can charge in 8-10 hours from a standard wall socket so I'm not including charging docks.

Sales prices are On the Road. Press Estimates for the Tesla and Vauxhall. I'm using Volt numbers for the Ampera which could be wildly inaccurate as they are different cars.

I'd add the Renault Kangoo ZE to the list if I can find price estimates.

*Nissan Leaf* £23,350	£0.03/mile Road Tax	£0.00	
Fuel + Road Tax * £370.81/year *

*Vauxhall Ampera* £20,000	£0.03/mile Road Tax	£0.00	
Fuel + Road Tax * £340.17*

*Tesla Model S* £50,000	£0.04/mile
Fuel + Road Tax £464.21

*Toyota Prius* £19,505	50	£4.90	£0.10	£0.00	
Fuel + Road Tax *£1,176.00*

*Ford Fiesta* 3 Door Edge 1.4TDCi £14,145	£0.11/mile Road Tax £20.00	
Fuel + Road Tax *£1,298.26*

*BMW 528i SE* £33,040	25	£4.90	Road Tax	£200.00/year
Fuel + Road Tax *£2,552.00* per year

I'll do the graphs later if I can find the time. Don't need a graph to see that the Prius will take ages to catch up to the Fiesta. The Leaf catches up to the Fiesta in about 9 years.

To be fair I should have compared a 4-door Fiesta to the Leaf and included next years VAT increase. 7 or 8 years? :dunno:


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Delete duplicate post.


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## carve (Nov 3, 2008)

Batteries don't like to be fully discharged or fully charged- it reduces their longevity. The Prius only uses the middle portion of the battery capacity. I forget the exact numbers, but I don't think it ever is discharged below 35-40% and never charged above ~75%. The volt will do something similar. Pure electrics will almost always be fully charged, and often deeply discharged, so their batteries won't last long.

That said, they'll be practically maintaince free otherwise, so that'll narrow the delta in upkeep costs.

Since even the best electric cars aren't anything you'd want to take a road trip in, they should focus on developing inexpensive, electrified city cars like the Smart and T.25. They don't require much range or power, making for vastly more affordable batteries.


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## Coconutpete (Feb 7, 2008)

I have faith in electric cars in the LONG run. The ones that are available now ... not so much.

If I was looking for the most economical thing I would drive my mom's Smart diesel instead of either of those 2 options.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

carve said:


> Pure electrics will almost always be fully charged, and often deeply discharged, so their batteries won't last long.


Certainly true for Lead Acid batteries. Less so for other technologies.

There is a 9 year old Citroen Berlingo Electrique on eBay now and the owner claims they are still getting 50-60 mile range on the original NiCad pack.

With the 60-100 mile range you get from LiIon batteries, a typical commute won't take them below 50% charge. While Nissan/Renault may have some engineering data on their new batteries who knows how long they will last in real use.

So far only Think are offering a Sodium battery.



> they should focus on developing inexpensive, electrified city cars like the Smart and T.25.


Renault are building a battery city car. It is somewhat like a 4 wheel scooter. Reminds me a little of the BMW C1. They recently showed an updated concept that is close to the production car. --> http://www.renault-ze.com/uk/?WT.srch=1#/uk/home/gallery-twizy-concept.html

I'm much more interested in the van as it is something we would use daily.


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