# Very impressive snow performance



## lsedels (Jul 12, 2003)

rumatt said:


> I'm not sure why so many people say this. It is 100% false. Snow tires do improve stopping distance and turning ability in snow and even on pure ice. It's been shown in several studies.
> 
> Studies, Schmudies. You get a car going with any decent forward motion at all on a sheet of black ice ... or down an incline that has gotten coated with ice ... even with snow tires ... and you're in for a trip to the body shop. On slippery surfaces ... on packed down snow ... sure ... snow tires will be immensely helpful.
> 
> It's pretty amazing isn't it? I was couldn't believe how fast people were driving. It was unbelievable. :tsk:


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

lsedels said:


> Studies, Schmudies. You get a car going with any decent forward motion at all on a sheet of black ice ... or down an incline that has gotten coated with ice ... even with snow tires ... and you're in for a trip to the body shop.


I didn't say they work miracles. I said they help. I'm basing my statements on articles like the one below, that was performed on an ice rink. This seems to suggest your statement "Nothing helps on ice or slippery conditions" is not correct.



[url said:


> http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tires/articles/100811/article.html?tid=edmunds.h..reviews.specialreports.2.*[/url]]
> A trio of Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited V8s awaited us on the ice of an indoor hockey rink.
> [...]
> The test consisted of accelerating up to and braking at a set of cones. As expected, the Jeep with the "all-season" rubber had the most trouble starting and stopping as it scrabbled for grip when the throttle was squeezed and took the longest distance to come to rest.
> ...


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

BazBoy said:


> I am very impressed with the snow performance of my 330i with Dunlop M3 225/45 on 17" rims. The grip and stability was amazing. Living in New England I was nervous buying a rear wheel drive car, but this combination of tires and car beats all the front wheel drive cars I have had.


Your experience matches mine exactly. These are very good cars in the snow provided snow tires are used and you aren't climbing hills on glare ice.


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## lsedels (Jul 12, 2003)

rumatt said:


> I didn't say they work miracles. I said they help. I'm basing my statements on articles like the one below, that was performed on an ice rink. This seems to suggest your statement "Nothing helps on ice or slippery conditions" is not correct.


Please don't take this the wrong way  , but I must be missing something. Where in this article is an objective statement made that snow tires make a difference vs. all-seasons on ice? You're not talking about the statement "... the studded snows felt grippy as they bit into the ice under acceleration and braking ..." are you? Even "... the Jeep with the "all-season" rubber had the most trouble starting and stopping as it scrabbled for grip when the throttle was squeezed and took the longest distance to come to rest..." is hardly a valid objective comparison. Longest distance by what? A mm, an inch, a foot, a mile?

If you want to trust snows on ice, suit yourself. I trust NOTHING on ice ... short of possibly chains ... which I don't own.


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## Marco (Mar 7, 2003)

FireFly said:


> Marco-
> 
> Although I believe snows on an XI would be a great ride, I think for this season I will be keeping the AS tires on and buying a set of chains (cables actually) to keep in the trunk.
> 
> ...


My main doubt about snows is about how much worse road holding is when there is NO snow on the road (which even in New England is most of the winter). So the question is to have a combination AWD +SnowTires that is excellent in extreme cases (relatively few) but not that good when the road is clean VS. a combination AWD alone that is not equally good (perhaps) when there is snow on the road but is excellent (most of the winter) when the roads are clear. (Obviously I do not use the car to go offroad seeking out snow banks  )
The chains/cables idea seems to solve the problem . Have you done some research (or have sources) on what is available and not damaging?
TIA


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

*Snows and etc.*

My car handled OK with Pirelli snow sports and RWD. I did get caught on a couple of deep snow spots, parking lot, driveway, but I was able to pull through by turning off the DSC. I would say RWD with snows is about equivalent to FWD with all seasons. Now my wife's outback was able to plow through these same snow spots with ease.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Marco said:


> My main doubt about snows is about how much worse road holding is when there is NO snow on the road (which even in New England is most of the winter). So the question is to have a combination AWD +SnowTires that is excellent in extreme cases (relatively few) but not that good when the road is clean VS. a combination AWD alone that is not equally good (perhaps) when there is snow on the road but is excellent (most of the winter) when the roads are clear. (Obviously I do not use the car to go offroad seeking out snow banks  )
> The chains/cables idea seems to solve the problem . Have you done some research (or have sources) on what is available and not damaging?
> TIA


 I like my solution:

Change wheels as soon as most of the roads are clear.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

Rumatt- Emission posted this on the X5 forum:

_I'm buying a set of "chains" for our X5 this month (our X5 did fine in the snow without them, but the State of California requires chains on many roads - regardless of AWD - when it is snowing).

The best I've found (and I had them for my '97 4Runner) is the "Z-Chain" line by Security Chain Company. It isn't really a chain, but a steel cable that is "low profile" (won't damage the vehicle) and fits snugly. They also ride pretty smoothly. They have an informative website:

http://www.scc-chain.com/

For our X5 (3.0 without Sport Package), this is what fits:

Z-Chain Lt - ZL 671
Super Z LT - ZT 729

They really are the best._

The site has the "cable" chains for a 205/50/17. If people throw these on their X5 in California and drive around with them for extended periods of time, I believe they would be more than enough to get me up my driveway. They would most likely be good for the 1x per year when I'm away from home and we get a nasty ice storm and I need to get home. I'd guess that once on the road in such a storm you'd be driving 10-20 miles per hour.

My only concern is damage to the wheel well if it were to snap. But since it will only be on for a short period of time, I may have nothing to worry about.

When we have a storm around here the roads are terrible for less thna 24 hours. Then we get bare pavement the next day once the plows have had at it.


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## BazBoy (Apr 30, 2003)

Marco said:


> My main doubt about snows is about how much worse road holding is when there is NO snow on the road (which even in New England is most of the winter). So the question is to have a combination AWD +SnowTires that is excellent in extreme cases (relatively few) but not that good when the road is clean VS. a combination AWD alone that is not equally good (perhaps) when there is snow on the road but is excellent (most of the winter) when the roads are clear. (Obviously I do not use the car to go offroad seeking out snow banks  )
> The chains/cables idea seems to solve the problem . Have you done some research (or have sources) on what is available and not damaging?
> TIA


I am happy with the dry performance of my Dunlop M3's. There is less grip, but only when you are driving more aggressively. For normal driving they are fine. They do feel very stable at higher speeds.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

rumatt said:


> Marco, I'm starting to like this idea. My main concern is that putting on chains is a bit of a pain, so you don't want to have to do it very often.
> 
> Does anyone know if it's OK to put the chains just on the back? That's probably what I would want to do.
> 
> yes, I found that afterward. Thanks.


First thought would be to place the chains on the front for 2 reasons:

1. Easier to put on tires since you can turn the wheel.
2. Having them on the front would allow you to pull the car up a steep hill.

I could be wrong but this seems to make sense to me.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

rumatt said:


> Oops. I left out the minor detail that I have a RWD 330i. It would be pretty silly to put them on the front only.
> 
> Having your front tires have more grip than the rear can (in theroy) be dangerous because the care would be more prone to have the back end come around. But if you have AWD and you're just climbing your driveway and taking them off again, I'd put them on the front also.


Forgot you are RWD- probably would not do any good having them on your front tires. 

Ok- my 2cents for ice: Nothing but chains or studs would help. And chains are a bit iffy if it's smooth ice but would at least help. I've been out on frozen lakes/ponds and once you hit ice wih no snow pack it does not really matter what you do because nothing will work if you've only got snows or AS tires on your vehicle. You may be able to accelerate a bit but forget about applying the brakes or trying to turn- it's useless.

Also found these which look interesting: http://www.spikes-spiders.com/


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## lsedels (Jul 12, 2003)

rumatt said:


> Yes, I agree. I'm not providing any hard data (distances, etc). But fortunately I don't specific quantified value to dispute your general claim that "nothing helps". I just need to argue that it was "better".
> 
> Seriously though, in every study I've seen they were always suprised at much improvement was observed from snow tires on pure ice. This doens't make a quantified statement, but IMO it does say _something_. I agree specific stopping distances would be nice, shown over a wide range of tires. Tirerack.com shows charts, but they are "scores" not distances.
> 
> I have no first hand experience with the following, but there is one thing I believe is misunderstood. Many people think studs or chains are needed on ice, but I believe this is actually not when they're needed the most. On smooth ice, snow tires have done nearly as well (or just as well) as studded tires. It's whan you have packed snow that studs/chains really help because they dig through the snow, wheras without chains, the snow under the tires can slide against itself, so having a sticky tire surface doesn't help much. :dunno:


Fair enough!


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## belsouth (Aug 16, 2003)

FireFly said:


> Forgot you are RWD- probably would not do any good having them on your front tires.
> 
> Ok- my 2cents for ice: Nothing but chains or studs would help. And chains are a bit iffy if it's smooth ice but would at least help. I've been out on frozen lakes/ponds and once you hit ice wih no snow pack it does not really matter what you do because nothing will work if you've only got snows or AS tires on your vehicle. You may be able to accelerate a bit but forget about applying the brakes or trying to turn- it's useless.
> 
> Also found these which look interesting: http://www.spikes-spiders.com/


These look interesting as well:

http://www.flex-trax.com

I'm considering a pair of these, to use with a set of Pirelli Nero M&S, when conditions warrant.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

belsouth said:


> These look interesting as well:
> 
> http://www.flex-trax.com
> 
> I'm considering a pair of these, to use with a set of Pirelli Nero M&S, when conditions warrant.


I checked out the site and noticed on the Photo Gallery section that the fit seems a bit loose. Do you know anyone who has used these? Do they have as much "play" in them as the pictures would indicate?

I'd hate to have them loosen up and damage the vehicle...


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## belsouth (Aug 16, 2003)

FireFly said:


> I checked out the site and noticed on the Photo Gallery section that the fit seems a bit loose. Do you know anyone who has used these? Do they have as much "play" in them as the pictures would indicate?
> 
> I'd hate to have them loosen up and damage the vehicle...


I don't know anyone who has used them. I simply found the site while surfing.

I'm interested because they seem easy to install and they're reasonably priced. They are waiting on a model that fits 225/45/17's, however. They tell me these should be in by the end of the month.


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