# November Lease Rates



## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

Any changes from Oct? I'm specifically interested in the X5 lease rates (as well as rebates/credits)


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Programs won't come out until tomorrow. Sorry.


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

adrian's bmw said:


> Programs won't come out until tomorrow. Sorry.


OK, then please post the requested info tomorrow. Thanks


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## Harald328i (Oct 21, 2011)

adrian's bmw said:


> Programs won't come out until tomorrow. Sorry.


That is fantastic!

Do they usually come on the second day of the month?

My delivery is likely to be early in december and I want to make sure that I will not take delivery until I learn December rates and offers. (I know, I know, we are talking November rates, but I am looking ahead)


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Harald328i said:


> That is fantastic!
> 
> Do they usually come on the second day of the month?
> 
> My delivery is likely to be early in december and I want to make sure that I will not take delivery until I learn December rates and offers. (I know, I know, we are talking November rates, but I am looking ahead)


Depends on the month and where the new one starts. Usually it's the first though.

More than likely, the programs will be a November/December bundled together.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

adrian's bmw said:


> Depends on the month and where the new one starts. Usually it's the first though.
> 
> More than likely, the programs will be a November/December bundled together.


Blame it on the weather! I need those figures now!!


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Harald328i said:


> That is fantastic!
> 
> Do they usually come on the second day of the month?
> 
> My delivery is likely to be early in december and I want to make sure that I will not take delivery until I learn December rates and offers. (I know, I know, we are talking November rates, but I am looking ahead)


Looking at history, November will equal December rates. If they bring back holiday cash, it will likely extend until January lease rates are out, so you'll have two rates to choose from most likely. I'm interested as well, but last year they dropped residual by three points and provided rebate plus lower MF, which evened out but allowed a lower payoff at lease end if you opted for that. Last October has lower residuals and lower MF than this year, so I'm not holding my breath, but it would be a nice surprise. Maybe BMW will heavily subvent their rates to make sure they beat the other near-luxury automakers for 2011.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

My guess is it will be model dependent. Their passenger cars like the 3 series have lower sales numbers than last year, SUV sales (X3 in particular) are way up.


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

That's great... How about we all stop speculating and someone posts the actual numbers


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## 89dle30 (Oct 24, 2011)

It looks like, surprisingly, bmwusa.com has been updated overnight ahead of the sales roundtable discussions today. Usually, it lags the internal sharing of programs by a few days from my experience. I was looking at retail finance instead of lease, and for the X5, the nav credit stayed, 0.9% is available to 24 months, but went up to 3.9% for 25-60 months. There is mention of another $1000 credit available, but what is unclear is whether that is just referencing the existing loyalty credit, or is another $1000 on top of it. 

As usual with the first few days of the site update, some links are old. I can still see the loyalty page separately, but once I go into offers, it disappears from the left hand menu. If it is indeed on top of loyalty, it's better than last year's holiday credit of $2500, unless you don't care about nav, which is the situation that I'm in. I'll take it if it is free, and use the hard drive, but otherwise don't need it. I guess you could argue that existing nav + loyalty (2730) is better than last year's 2500 already, but I was thinking it would be even sweeter for Nov-Dec. And it still could be if the $1000 is separate. I'm also a CCA member, which I would endorse to anyone here even without the membership rewards.

Cheers,
Pat


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

Pat,

Can you PLEASE look at the lease rates and get back to us? I really need this information along with several other people.

What happened to the Eco Credit on the X5d, is it still available.

Is the additional $1000 for one of the "drive" events? I got an invitation to attend one the other day. I bet that's what it is... Bascially a repeat of the BMW Team USA drive event.


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## 89dle30 (Oct 24, 2011)

Matt,

Sorry, I don't have any information beyond what is on the site, so I'm in the dark as you are until we get clarity from the sales organizations. I guess you are looking for MF changes, etc.? I'm told the video will be shown at 3 PM today, but my CA is out at 2. Have a look at bmwusa.com for the details. The d has the nav, eco, plus this $1000, but like you said, I don't know if that's a drive event or a flat credit like last year's cash. I'm sure our helpful dealer posters here will clarify as soon as they can.

Cheers,
Pat


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## Harald328i (Oct 21, 2011)

Crazy good deal on bmwusa!

It seems like they used:

MF = 0.001
Resid 66% for 10,000 per year 36 month lease


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

Harald328i said:


> Crazy good deal on bmwusa!
> 
> It seems like they used:
> 
> ...


I don't see it. Please explain how you got to these numbers...


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## Harald328i (Oct 21, 2011)

Matt_UKTX said:


> I don't see it. Please explain how you got to these numbers...


Website lists MSRP, residual and cap cost reduction.
AdjustedCap = MSRP - 4200 - 1000?
Rent = (adjustedCap + residual) x MF
Depreciation = (adjusted cap - residual) / 36

Now plug this into a spreadsheet and see what should be MF to hit 459 monthly payment


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Nice catch, Herald. To clarify, start by calculating adjusted cap (msrp - down payment).

Second, calculate Depreciation since you have those numbers available and you need them for monthly rent. (adjusted cap - residual) / lease length.

Now, subtract depreciation from monthly listed (monthly - depreciation) = rent.

Now, divide Rent by (adjusted cap + residual) to get a very small number. In this case, it equals 0.001 or close to that, which multiplied by 2400 = 2.9% interest. So MF is 0.001 as Herald pointed out. This should give you the numbers you need.


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

Guys, I must be dumb because I am not seeing any X5 deal with a $459 monthly payment. Can you post a link to the offer?


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Matt_UKTX said:


> Guys, I muse be dumb because I am not seeing any X5 deal with a $459 monthly payment. Can you post a link to the offer?


Harald has a 328i convertible on order. He was regarding his own vehicle numbers. But you should be able to calculate everything as described above with what is shown on bmwusa.com based on what vehicle you're looking for.


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

Can someone, ANYONE, please post the residuals and MF's for November. Plus details of any new rebates available on the X5.

I really need this info ASAP.

Thanks,
Matt.


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

I was finally able to get the rates for the X5. I did this the hard way by calling around the dealers until I could find one to just give me the info. Too bad no-one here could take the time to post the info, but regardless I'll share my findings:

X5 35d
MF: 0.00195 (Unchanged from Oct)
Residual: 51% (on 15,000 miles, add 2% for 12,000, and 3% for 10,000)

X5 35i Premium
MF: 0.00195 (Unchanged from Oct)
Residual: 54% (on 15,000 miles, add 2% for 12,000, and 3% for 10,000)

X5 35i Sports Activity
MF: 0.00195 (Unchanged from Oct)
Residual: 53% (on 15,000 miles, add 2% for 12,000, and 3% for 10,000)

X5 50i
MF: 0.00195 (Unchanged from Oct)
Residual: 59% (on 15,000 miles, add 2% for 12,000, and 3% for 10,000)

So, residuals actually got worse across all the X5's, HOWEVER, there is now an additional $1000 in APR/Lease Assistance available on the X5. So, the net position is that for most people they will be about the same on the Gas X5's, and about $500 or $12 per month better off on the Diesels, depending on the MSRP of the car.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

You think _anything _BMW makes is aimed at the middle class?



dtc100 said:


> If we look at the BMW October sales, cars aimed at the middle class, such as the 3 and 5, were flat or down. Cars aimed at the upper class like the 6 and 7 were up. While the X3 had large gain, it was because last year this time it wasn't available for sale yet.
> 
> A few months ago when I went into a local Hyundai dealer for the first time to try the Genesis 2.0T R, I was surprised how much traffic there was.


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Robert A said:


> You think _anything _BMW makes is aimed at the middle class?


Umm... yeah!


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Like what?


hyperzulu said:


> Umm... yeah!


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Robert A said:


> Like what?


Any 3 series for starters. We are talking about middle class Americans right? Not Nigeria.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

You really think BMW is marketing the 328i at middle class families? Maybe young single folks who are upwardly mobile, but most middle income ppl aren't buying this car. They're going after Jettas, Camrys, Civics and Accords and SUVs/minivans, and those choices are for those individuals who can buy a new car at all.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Robert A said:


> You really think BMW is marketing the 328i at middle class families? Maybe young single folks who are upwardly mobile, but most middle income ppl aren't buying this car. They're going after Jettas, Camrys, Civics and Accords and SUVs/minivans, and those choices are for those individuals who can buy a new car at all.


This is how I look at it.

When the middle class in the US feels financially secure and prosper, they tend to move from Toyota/Accord/Nissan/VW... to entry level MB/BMW/Audi/Lexus/Infiniti..., and when they are hammered, they gravitate to Hyundai...or used cars.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

When the middle class feels secure, they'll buy new Toyota/Accord/Nissan/VW...


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Robert A said:


> You really think BMW is marketing the 328i at middle class families? Maybe young single folks who are upwardly mobile, but most middle income ppl aren't buying this car. They're going after Jettas, Camrys, Civics and Accords and SUVs/minivans, and those choices are for those individuals who can buy a new car at all.


So a 328i sedan is not even considered by families looking at a V6 Accord? Come on...

The 16-25 age group is not even close to the target consumer base for the 3 series and if BMW relied on 20-30 year olds with college degrees and upward mobility, they would not sell nearly as many 3 series as they do.


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Robert A said:


> When the middle class feels secure, they'll buy new Toyota/Accord/Nissan/VW...


Middle class is not individuals with families within the ages of 35-45 that earn under 100k a year. There are younger and older people who are middle class that are target markets for a 3 series. Even the 5 series targets those without children around the age of 50 who may or may not earn over 100k a year. They make up nearly half of the consumer base.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

The marketing demographics for the segment that buys 5 series (and its competitors) as of about 5 years ago was age around 50-55, with a median household income of $180K. I looked at some post purchase marketing stats for this segment a few years back.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Sure the 328i sedan is considered by families, but not too many actually buy them new. Sure, some do, but it's not the target market for BMW.



hyperzulu said:


> So a 328i sedan is not even considered by families looking at a V6 Accord? Come on...
> 
> The 16-25 age group is not even close to the target consumer base for the 3 series and if BMW relied on 20-30 year olds with college degrees and upward mobility, they would not sell nearly as many 3 series as they do.


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Upper middle class is definitely your larger 5 series consumer base, but that is still middle class. Above that you have the upper 1% who make 350-500k or more. This is not the target market for most BMWs.


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Robert A said:


> Sure the 328i sedan is considered by families, but not too many actually buy them new. Sure, some do, but it's not the target market for BMW.


Hey, you're the one that threw in the word "families" after the fact. Nobody else but you decided to make middle class mean lower middle class families with children still in grade school. Middle class is more than those people. So, yes... BMW most definitely targets the middle class with the majority of their vehicles. What stage in their life they are in regarding their offspring was not really the question here when it comes to economics.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

There are middle class people who buy these cars, but the target market for BMW is not that demographic, and never has been.



hyperzulu said:


> Hey, you're the one that threw in the word "families" after the fact. Nobody else but you decided to make middle class mean lower middle class families with children still in grade school. Middle class is more than those people. So, yes... BMW most definitely targets the middle class with the majority of their vehicles. What stage in their life they are in regarding their offspring was not really the question here when it comes to economics.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

We can argue about who is part of what etc. But at the end of the day, things aren't too bad for BMW - weren't October sales pretty robust? At the end of the day isn't that all that counts?


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Robert A said:


> There are middle class people who buy these cars, but the target market for BMW is not that demographic, and never has been.


So BMW has a target market of 1% of the American population? Individuals that can afford a Bentley coupe? Wow... never knew that. They must not be doing too well when their competition outclasses them by a huge margin in terms of luxury.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Folks who buy Bentley, Rolls etc. usually have multiple cars. Some of those are likely BMWs.


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

chrischeung said:


> Folks who buy Bentley, Rolls etc. usually have multiple cars. Some of those are likely BMWs.


And you really think they remain viable selling such a small margin of cars? Bentley does not sell as many cars so they can target 1%. BMW wants to sell to more than the 1% so they do not target these people. Should they choose to buy a BMW is good for the company's image, but when you target the wealthiest Americans you put your cars out of reach for everyone else. This is not the case with BMW. Just on that alone should indicate that lower middle class, single, young people and upper middle class, older folks without kids in the household are the target markets. NOT guys or girls with annual incomes of 200k or more. Not the 328i anyway, BMW's highest selling car.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

You misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that the top 1% would be considered a target market for BMW, in addition to many others. There are also folks who spend well below their means.

Once you reach a certain level, in many things, you're not really paying for greater utility - just for the fact of paying more to say you paid more. A lot of folks recognize this. You're better off buying a BMW and getting a license plate like "1%", or putting a "UBS Wealth Management" bumper sticker on the car.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Well, as a matter of fact, yes, although I think it's broader than 1%. What's relevant is that BMW does not target middle class American buyers for the 3 and 5 series cars, as you originally suggested. Middle America, by and large, does not spend $40k+ for their cars, and when they do, they typically have different feature preferences.

The goal of the 1 and 3 series is to capture younger upwardly mobile, highly educated individuals who will one day inhabit their most costly higher margin 5. 6 and 7 Series cars. This is not middle class.



hyperzulu said:


> So BMW has a target market of 1% of the American population? Individuals that can afford a Bentley coupe? Wow... never knew that. They must not be doing too well when their competition outclasses them by a huge margin in terms of luxury.


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

Robert A said:


> Well, as a matter of fact, yes, although I think it's broader than 1%. What's relevant is that BMW does not target middle class American buyers for the 3 and 5 series cars, as you originally suggested. Middle America, by and large, does not spend $40k+ for their cars, and when they do, they typically have different feature preferences.
> 
> The goal of the 1 and 3 series is to capture younger upwardly mobile, highly educated individuals who will one day inhabit their most costly higher margin 5. 6 and 7 Series cars. This is not middle class.


Seeing as how nearly half of all 3 series buyers are above 45, BMW's marketing department clearly is out of touch if what you say is true. These folks, while having a decent amount of money in the form of equity, money in their retirement accounts, etc. are not in the upper 1%. Maybe a quarter of buyers are your young professionals with upward mobility, who, while earning more than their peers, are not in the upper 1% and may never be.

To say that the 1 and 3 series are not targeting the middle class simply because those targetted will EVENTUALLY be upper middle class or even wealthier when they mature is false. What someone might earn 25 years from now means nothing in respect of their economic class today. And if the 1 or 3 series were targetting the upper 1%, you wouldn't see a 25 year old driving a new 328i sedan because it would be priced out of his range.

I'm not sure how you can say that a 128i is targetting the same class of buyer as a 750Li. It is just not true.


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

These are not middle class buyers. These are upper income folks.



hyperzulu said:


> Seeing as how nearly half of all 3 series buyers are above 45, BMW's marketing department clearly is out of touch if what you say is true. These folks, while having a decent amount of money in the form of equity, money in their retirement accounts, etc. are not in the upper 1%. Maybe a quarter of buyers are your young professionals with upward mobility, who, while earning more than their peers, are not in the upper 1% and may never be.


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

A lot of toilet being spoken here...  How is any of this relevant to the November lease numbers, which are now available here:
http://www.ridewithg.com

That aside, of course BMW sells to middle class folks. I bought my first BMW when I was 27, and I certainly wasn't "upper class" back then, and I'm not now. I think this is all down to definitiions...

How do you define upper class. Well, first off let's get one thing clear - class and money are not synonymous. So let's say middle and upper INCOME, which is a better reflection of what you guys mean.

To me, someone making $250K per year is NOT upper income. They might be middle upper income, but they are not seriously rich, especially not after uncle sam takes his share. I think BMW targets those in the $75K-$250K income bracket.

Those who are upper income (read $1MM per year) might own a BMW, but as another poster said, they probably own a Lamborghini and a Tahoe too.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

chrischeung said:


> We can argue about who is part of what etc. But at the end of the day, things aren't too bad for BMW - weren't October sales pretty robust? At the end of the day isn't that all that counts?


I made a point about the October sales, the 3 sales was down, 5 sales nearly flat, 6 and 7 sold very well. Maybe those at the upper income level did better than those in the middle


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## hyperzulu (Jul 12, 2011)

This thread stopped being about november rates long ago. :rofl:

I'm done arguing the point. I really don't see how someone can in the same thread say that BMW has no cars marketed toward middle class and go on to say that certain cars are marketed toward young up and comers who make 40-50k a year <-- middle class. Beats me, but I'm good with it. Keep rocking on, November rates.


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## Matt_UKTX (Jan 9, 2006)

hyperzulu said:


> This thread stopped being about november rates long ago. :rofl:
> 
> I'm done arguing the point. I really don't see how someone can in the same thread say that BMW has no cars marketed toward middle class and go on to say that certain cars are marketed toward young up and comers who make 40-50k a year <-- middle class. Beats me, but I'm good with it. Keep rocking on, November rates.


Agreed :thumbup:


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

hyperzulu said:


> This thread stopped being about november rates long ago. :rofl:
> 
> I'm done arguing the point. I really don't see how someone can in the same thread say that BMW has no cars marketed toward middle class and go on to say that certain cars are marketed toward young up and comers who make 40-50k a year <-- middle class. Beats me, but I'm good with it. Keep rocking on, November rates.


I first posted the link to the rates:

http://www.ridewithg.com/index.php/2011/11/2011-12-bmw-lease-rates-november-2011/

I think people didn't like the rates they saw and started the argument


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