# 3 series down 40 percent, 7 series down 50!



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

ard said:


> just be prepared to sit in that dealership for 9 months while that market corrects.....
> 
> For well healed enthusiasts, who enjoy being able to afford that which the unwashed masses cannot, this move by BMW is indeed good news.


You do have a way with words...

And your observation is deeply insightful in that BMW, at least in North America, appears to have been trying to have it both ways -- building a status brand while also selling, and marketing, for a chunk of the upper/middle of the mass market.

I've done quite a few Jaguar deals and they are also caught in the same schizophrenic bind -- I once leased an X-type Sportwagon (nice Ford re-badge job, in essence). It was a great car, leased at give-away pricing. Then Jag decided they wanted to complete in the 6 figure range, which, for a minute or two on a few of their high performance models, they sorta, kinda have been doing. But their bread and butter is below $60K, with the newest sedan entry trying to go against the BMW 3 series and their 'new' Jag SUV, though initially selling well for a Jag, already in the resale market at discounted prices.

And Jags drop in value worse than Bimmers as soon as you drive one off the lot (and tow it back to the dealer shortly thereafter because, after all, they are Jags!).

But I don't think one need wait 9 months to do a deal on a BMW. Maybe a CA will weigh in to truly enlighten us, but I'm still thinking there are deals today, for the persistent. Maybe not what was available this time last year, but reasonable deals nonetheless. And if not today, real soon. Maybe.


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## FrankAlba (May 19, 2017)

Dr. F said:


> Lease deals are bad, and buying new is horrible if you will want out after 3-5 years. I'm starting to think that buying a pre-owned or taking a second hand lease assumption is the only thing that makes sense anymore.


Agreed. In January I bought a 2016 M235 cabrio with 1,350 miles. It has every conceivable option, including M Sport exhaust and diffuser. I paid $15,000 less than the best price I was quoted on a brand new model. If I had gone with a 2014 M4 cabrio with 2,500 miles, savings would have been about $35,000. Both cars had come off a lease, and were in immaculate condition. I did have to pay $700 to carry over the warranty because the M235 was not a BMW certified car.

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## alex2364 (May 8, 2006)

FrankAlba said:


> If I had gone with a 2014 M4 cabrio with 2,500 miles, savings would have been about $35,000.


There is no such thing as a 2014 M4. The first model year was 2015.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Don't think for a second that BMWAG didn't plan this.

They've known for at least 4 months that The Twitter in Chief was going to bash German auto manufacturers. (Putin told them). They cleverly cut incentives and jacked up MF's to show a decline in sales. They knew Audi would be in the hot seat again for fudging yet more emissions tests (Putin again), and BMWAG cleverly decided to play the card "Hey, don't pick on us Herr Drumpf - ve are ze GOOD Germans, und ve build ze hottest selling BMW's right there in South Carolina. If you are going to sanction any German carmakers, make it the BAD Germans, the Lying VWAG, who make Lying Hillary look like Mother Theresa."

It will work, and by the time POTUS shuts down VW and Audi, BMW Centers across the country will have sheiss tons of inventory ready to be unleashed, in a veritable blitzkreig of sales, a counteroffensive to rival Model's and von Runstedt's _Unternehmen Wacht am Rhein_.

Remember, you heard it here first.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

quackbury said:


> Don't think for a second that BMWAG didn't plan this.
> 
> They've known for at least 4 months that The Twitter in Chief was going to bash German auto manufacturers. (Putin told them). They cleverly cut incentives and jacked up MF's to show a decline in sales. They knew Audi would be in the hot seat again for fudging yet more emissions tests (Putin again), and BMWAG cleverly decided to play the card "Hey, don't pick on us Herr Drumpf - ve are ze GOOD Germans, und ve build ze hottest selling BMW's right there in South Carolina. If you are going to sanction any German carmakers, make it the BAD Germans, the Lying VWAG, who make Lying Hillary look like Mother Theresa."
> 
> ...


Come on Quack. BMW's reduction of incentives and change of policy started before the most recent election was in full swing. I doubt BMW's changes has anything to do with the POTUS.

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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

I think Quack has nailed it....

But if you think it wasn't a Putin/Jared back channel... (Despite the overwhelming evidence Quack has exposed...  ) It could have started out with a bit of tightening, "we aren't going to compete hard for the 2016 luxury brand of the year, so let's dial back- we can revisit this for 2017", and then proceeding to a full blown retreat.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

1968BMW2800 said:


> And your observation is deeply insightful in that BMW, at least in North America, appears to have been trying to have it both ways -- building a status brand while also selling, and marketing, for a chunk of the upper/middle of the mass market.


They all do.

It has been a bit disheartening to see BMW smear "M" all over everything, to the point of making it almost irrelevant. M seats, M sport package, M doors sills...M whatever. Now every BMW model has an M version it seems, with multiple 'packages' on the base models to 'goose' buyers up the MSRP ladder. They still spin the story of the Motorsports group taking the model and breathing their magic over it- but they are now just mass produced variants on a well designed product portfolio.

Oh, who thinks the 7 series is the 'flagship'? For me, personally- the big dog is the M5/M6. The 7 series is a geezer-mobile. (Just being honest after a few beers by the pool...)


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

ard said:


> I think Quack has nailed it....
> 
> But if you think it wasn't a Putin/Jared back channel... (Despite the overwhelming evidence Quack has exposed...  ) It could have started out with a bit of tightening, "we aren't going to compete hard for the 2016 luxury brand of the year, so let's dial back- we can revisit this for 2017", and then proceeding to a full blown retreat.


Now boyz, be sure to remain _courteous_ -- the NSA and KGB are listening and they have ways to mess with your engine management software. They've been doing it to my Jags for years!


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Take a close look at the new 5. I am in a loaner 5 now and, while it is a tremendous improvement in handling over the F10, the cost cutting and cheapness of the interior is unforgivable. This loaner probably killed the chance that I would pick up a G90 m5.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


I've driven the new 5er, 530i and 540i, and I've read a ton of G30 forum posts by owners of the new 5er and yours is the only post I've seen calling the G30 interior cheap. The one universal complaint is the lack of lining in the little cubby under the headlight switch. I've read a few complaints about a lack of lining in the front door pockets. Overall the comments I've read have given glowing reviews.


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## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Take a close look at the new 5. I am in a loaner 5 now and, while it is a tremendous improvement in handling over the F10, the cost cutting and cheapness of the interior is unforgivable. This loaner probably killed the chance that I would pick up a G90 m5.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


The interior is what I loved. Didn't seem cheap at all. If deals get just a little better, I think I'll pull the trigger on the new 5er. The one at a local dealer with dark rims/white exterior was beautiful.


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## mikeriley (Mar 20, 2008)

socal59 said:


> The interior is what I loved. Didn't seem cheap at all. If deals get just a little better, I think I'll pull the trigger on the new 5er. The one at a local dealer with dark rims/white exterior was beautiful.


dark rims look terrible on this car. agree with last poster there are cheap parts to interior. SensTec is awful.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

tturedraider said:


> I've driven the new 5er, 530i and 540i, and I've read a ton of G30 forum posts by owners of the new 5er and yours is the only post I've seen calling the G30 interior cheap. The one universal complaint is the lack of lining in the little cubby under the headlight switch. I've read a few complaints about a lack of lining in the front door pockets. Overall the comments I've read have given glowing reviews.


Go back and drive them again. I have had every 5 since the E39 and this one feels cheap inside. The dash is this soft plastic that bends when you touch it. It gives off a cheap vibe. The wood trim flexes when you touch it, that also gives off a cheap vibe. The plastic cover over the cup holders is loose and should be tight. I can list many more cheap things, but I think I have made my point. My loaner is brand new with 1500 miles on it and my previous 5's were very solid inside and much more premium feeling than this one.

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## FrankAlba (May 19, 2017)

alex2364 said:


> There is no such thing as a 2014 M4. The first model year was 2015.


True. Fat fingers and an iPhone. Once texted my girlfriend if she wanted peanuts, hit the wrong letter, and spell check converted to penis. Her sister got a kick out of it, but not her dad.

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## Folgen Sie Mir (Jan 5, 2014)

Maybe people are tired of the high cost of maintenance/parts & general unreliability of their product. You pay to play, but if half the time is spent with your car in shop...why bother? Whats the resale loss on a BMW compared to other brands? Perhaps that has something to do with it.

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## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

mikeriley said:


> dark rims look terrible on this car. agree with last poster there are cheap parts to interior. SensTec is awful.


That's your opinion. To each his own.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Folgen Sie Mir said:


> Maybe people are tired of the high cost of maintenance/parts & general unreliability of their product. You pay to play, but if half the time is spent with your car in shop...why bother? Whats the resale loss on a BMW compared to other brands? Perhaps that has something to do with it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Bimmerfest mobile app


Maintenance and parts are free, at least for the first 3 years.

The resale loss is zero if you lease. (Or more precisely, it is someone else's problem). If you buy, the resale loss is the same as Audi or Mercedes, and much less than Jaguar or Cadillac.

Nice drive by trolling, though.

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## Folgen Sie Mir (Jan 5, 2014)

When you lease you pay your depreciation up front so the next guy gets a "good" deal. Maintenance & parts are NOT free, do you not think its rolled into the price? Do you think BMWs busniess plan is to lose money? Keep bouncing on BMWs flesh rod Fan Boy, they depend on your kind 

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## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

quackbury said:


> Maintenance and parts are free, at least for the first 3 years.
> 
> The resale loss is zero if you lease. (Or more precisely, it is someone else's problem). If you buy, the resale loss is the same as Audi or Mercedes, and much less than Jaguar or Cadillac.
> 
> ...


It's been documented all over this sight and many others that BMW' are expensive to repair. CPO, doesn't cover everything, just read about the sunroof failure to name just one issue. The list goes on.

For people that appreciate high performance vehicles, the cost of repairs can be somewhat more tolerable, for your average driver, it will send them running away as quick as they can.

So really? You have to call Folgen Si Mir a troll? Chill.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

FrankAlba said:


> True. Fat fingers and an iPhone. Once texted my girlfriend if she wanted peanuts, hit the wrong letter, and spell check converted to penis. Her sister got a kick out of it, but not her dad.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


Too funny.

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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Folgen Sie Mir said:


> When you lease you pay your depreciation up front so the next guy gets a "good" deal. Maintenance & parts are NOT free, do you not think its rolled into the price? Do you think BMWs busniess plan is to lose money? Keep bouncing on BMWs flesh rod Fan Boy, they depend on your kind [/URL]


Wow. Stunning logic. How do you square your statement with the fact BMW lease payments are historically LOWER than the payments on comparable Audi's, Mercedes and Jags? Those marques bake depreciation into the payment, and don't come with "free" maintenance (unless you purchase the additional MB coverage and add it to your lease).



socal59 said:


> It's been documented all over this sight and many others that BMW' are expensive to repair. CPO, doesn't cover everything, just read about the sunroof failure to name just one issue. The list goes on.
> 
> For people that appreciate high performance vehicles, the cost of repairs can be somewhat more tolerable, for your average driver, it will send them running away as quick as they can.


Wait, you are talking about USED cars? Do you really think for a minute that BMW's cost more to repair than Mercedes, Audi's, Jags or P-Cars? Have you ever actually owned one of those marques? It was the cost of brakes on my 911 that got me started wrenching, and the cost of struts on my last AMG Mercedes that convinced me BMW was a better option.

But if you want to run back to Honda or Kia, we understand. Watch that screen door.

Still trying to understand WTF your comments have to do with this thread, which was about the volume of NEW cars BMW is selling.......


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## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

quackbury said:


> Wow. Stunning logic. How do you square your statement with the fact BMW lease payments are historically LOWER than the payments on comparable Audi's, Mercedes and Jags? Those marques bake depreciation into the payment, and don't come with "free" maintenance (unless you purchase the additional MB coverage and add it to your lease).
> 
> Wait, you are talking about USED cars? Do you really think for a minute that BMW's cost more to repair than Mercedes, Audi's, Jags or P-Cars? Have you ever actually owned one of those marques? It was the cost of brakes on my 911 that got me started wrenching, and the cost of struts on my last AMG Mercedes that convinced me BMW was a better option.
> 
> ...


I was responding to a post, which was probably about used cars, since new ones are covered by maintenance and warranty by BMW. Who's talking about MB and Porsche? Yea, they're pricey as well, that does not make BMW's inexpensive to repair. So you "wrench" (which does not involve paying hourly prices at dealers ) and you're an expert and have researched which brand are the most expensive to repair? And that gives you the right spew out fouled mouth comments? Assuming one owns a Kia? Screen door? What you live in a trailer?

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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

I am reminded of Mark Twain's advice. Buh bye.


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## Ace535i (Jan 28, 2012)

mikeriley said:


> well the new leasing strategy is really taking its toll on the company as a whole, down 11 percent, to its bread and butter 3 series down 40 percent and to its flagship 7 series down 50 percent.
> 
> these are YUGE NUMBERS. the 7er was just redesigned and to be down that much is astonishing. for the 3 series which really established the brand to be down this much is unprecedented.


How are the new 5-series selling percentages?

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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Ace535i said:


> How are the new 5-series selling percentages?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app


5 Series UP 12.7% for May of 2017 compared to May 2016

5 Series DOWN 22.9% year-to-date through May.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Interesting. I wonder if they do leases in SE Asia?


Yes. BMW offers full payout and balloon leasing plans in several SE Asia markets. Here's an example from Thailand: https://www.bmw.co.th/en/topics/off...-services/hire-purchase.html#/financial-lease


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## Ace535i (Jan 28, 2012)

1968BMW2800 said:


> 5 Series UP 12.7% for May of 2017 compared to May 2016
> 
> 5 Series DOWN 22.9% year-to-date through May.


Dealers are more open to negotiating on most models with the exception of M2? My experience has been that most people wanting a BMW wait for the manufacturer's incentives. Otherwise, the dealerships are pretty much empty.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Ace535i said:


> Dealers are more open to negotiating on most models with the exception of M2? My experience has been that most people wanting a BMW wait foe the manufacturer's incentives. Otherwise, the dealerships are pretty much empty.


Which suggests the incentives will return/improve, sooner rather than later, if BMW wants to keep moving metal.

One wonders what secret incentives are already in play????:dunno:


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## mikeriley (Mar 20, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Which suggests the incentives will return/improve, sooner rather than later, if BMW wants to keep moving metal.
> 
> One wonders what secret incentives are already in play????:dunno:


Yeah. It would b nice to know those secrete incentives. In the old days some of it would have filtered to the forums.

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## mikeriley (Mar 20, 2008)

Now 7 series down 55 percent for June. This with new A8 launching and refreshed S class. 


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## [email protected] (Jan 27, 2014)

From the data we have seen, the US market demands SUVs. About 20% of BMWs production are SUVs. They know they are behind. They are trying to fix it. They also know the lineup is a little older than Audi and Benz. Audi is producing 50% SUV. 


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

quackbury said:


> Don't think for a second that BMWAG didn't plan this.
> 
> They've known for at least 4 months that The Twitter in Chief was going to bash German auto manufacturers. (Putin told them). They cleverly cut incentives and jacked up MF's to show a decline in sales. They knew Audi would be in the hot seat again for fudging yet more emissions tests (Putin again), and BMWAG cleverly decided to play the card "Hey, don't pick on us Herr Drumpf - ve are ze GOOD Germans, und ve build ze hottest selling BMW's right there in South Carolina. If you are going to sanction any German carmakers, make it the BAD Germans, the Lying VWAG, who make Lying Hillary look like Mother Theresa."
> 
> ...


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## Mykatie (Aug 8, 2012)

DDGator said:


> There have been an number of things lately, like decreased maintenance, less promotions, less favorable lease deals, reducing ED discount -- all of which will make my next BMW (if I get one) considerably more expensive than my current one.
> 
> I find myself looking at other cars as my current lease matures.


Same here. Mine is up early 18. I plan on looking over the competition very soon.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

I have seen the future and there will be deals.

The more things appear to change, the more they stay the same.

What will influence prices paid will be, as it has always been, what buyers are willing to pay.

If the lower residuals and higher money factors do not stop people who desire BMW's from acquiring them, then prices will be higher and the deals won't be as good.

If, on the other hand, enough people determine that the market value for these machines should be as it has been in the past -- substantially less than MSRP with subvented factory support -- then that's what it will be.

Many have done leases because they were smart enough to figure out that buying a car for $90K that will be worth 30% less in the marketplace a year later was not wise. The leases became a good option because BMW made them attractive.

If the leases become unattractive, but the cars continue to depreciate steeply and quickly, sales will fall, as will prices. And there will be deals, as always.


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## Boraxo (Sep 6, 2005)

Most have done leases because the cost of maintaining a BMW out of warranty is too high. As I have sadly learned with my 2006 330i. This was the first BMW I purchased (leased all the prior ones) and won't be making that mistake again. 

Will be interesting to see what happens when those cars start piling up on the lot.


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## Folgen Sie Mir (Jan 5, 2014)

People are realizing BMWs are for a good time, not a long time.

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## Jerseyal (Mar 9, 2013)

Dr. F said:


> Lease deals are bad, and buying new is horrible if you will want out after 3-5 years. I'm starting to think that buying a pre-owned or taking a second hand lease assumption is the only thing that makes sense anymore.


I've come to the same conclusion. I will likely keep the car when the lease is over.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Boraxo said:


> Most have done leases because the cost of maintaining a BMW out of warranty is too high. As I have sadly learned with my 2006 330i. This was the first BMW I purchased (leased all the prior ones) and won't be making that mistake again.


Not sure why you categorize this as a BMW problem. Back when I had a 911 and did 20-plus track days a year, I was doing a lot of my own wrenching because the dealership's charges were so high. An 11 quart oil change after every 3 track days, new filters, rotors, pads and a brake fluid flush at least once a year, etc.

It was my last AMG Mercedes that got me started leasing BMW's. Any idea what AMG shocks cost to replace? Trust me, you don't want to know.

The fact is, we've all gotten spoiled by free maintenance, and 50,000 mile warranties. a couple decades ago, we were accustomed to having to pay for routine maintenance, and budgeting for the inevitable stuff that would break and need replacing. Most of us have gotten into the mindset that we're going to pay the monthly lease or loan payment, buy one set of tires in 3 years, and nothing else. The "problem" isn't that BMW's are expensive to maintain, it's that for the first 50,000 miles someone else has been footing the bill.


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## smed melo (Jul 3, 2017)

DDGator said:


> There have been an number of things lately, like decreased maintenance, less promotions, less favorable lease deals, reducing ED discount -- all of which will make my next BMW (if I get one) considerably more expensive than my current one.
> 
> I find myself looking at other cars as my current lease matures.


sooooooooooooo true-son's friend came by with new subaru-around $30m-everything included-no options. with bmw lucky to get air in tires for 0. paying for logo


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## socal59 (Oct 24, 2004)

Here is a link from Consumer To exports showing cost of ownership for vehicles. They show the 750iL as the most expensive per year after 5 years, but not by much from a Mercedes or Lexus. No AMG model @quakbury, probably off the charts. It will be interesting to see how the cost of repairs will increase with the shorter maintenance programs, a few years down. 
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/12/what-that-car-really-costs-to-own/index.htm


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## mjsbmw (Jan 5, 2008)

Jerseyal said:


> I've come to the same conclusion. I will likely keep the car when the lease is over.


My 2015 535xi lease ends in 8 months. Great car with great options. No way I would buy the car at the current residual buyout particularly if not certified. These cars depreciate so much after you own it. These cars will be high maintenance costs waiting to happen.

With that said, my brother just picked up a 2017 530xi for a crazy low lease price. BMW recognizes that the 3 and 5 are not moving (nor the 7) and they are pulling out incentives and being flexible with the dealer to help them close the deal.


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