# One more time on throttle response



## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

I know we've talked about this ad nauseum..but why is it that aftermarket tuners can't get rid of the delay..for that matter why doesn't BMW.

I have the Dinan S2 software and CAI...this helped but it still has that sickening dead feeling when shifting into second and stepping on the gas.

It's incredible that my little garden pick up (1986 Nissan, 5 spd, 2.4 l) can actually react better in the 1-2 shift than my 330ci.

It is a simple software issue...other models don't have the problem...

Some one please save us.....


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## rmongiovi (Feb 7, 2003)

I think it's horrible customer service that BMW hasn't come up with a new release of the software. I certainly don't believe I should have to buy aftermarket stuff to make my already expensive car operate well.


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## GregE_325 (Jan 16, 2002)

I agree that it's a problem. The other day I tried to pass a car, only to step on the gas and nothing happen. There was a several second delay in the throttle response, all while I'm watching a big truck closing in on my rear. It was a little frustrating, to say the least. And only a bit dangerous. A number of times that I've tried to make left turns at an intersection only to find when I try to accelerate across oncoming traffic the car just won't go immediately.


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## mys_iii (May 9, 2003)

Unfortunately, BMWNA hasn't done anything about this yet. Sadly, I suspect that it is mainly due to the fact that the regular 3 series cars tend to be family cars and since they have a decent amount of power, they are detuned so to speak in order to keep the average driver safe. Realistically, not everyone has the same driving skills, awareness, and reaction time. Some people turn the key and just go pretty much spaced out the whole time. If they made it too responsive, I think it may lead to more rear ending or other problems. It seems that they did get it right on the M3 and also offer a more aggressive throttle response with the Sport button. I wish they offered that button option with the 3 Series that come with the SP or the ZHP package so that the true enthusiasts can be satisfied and grinning.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

One word for you: emissions control

Well OK, that's two words. How much you want to bet that if you got rid of that nasty throttle delay, that the engine would lose its ULEV status (or whatever it is).


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

A lot of E46Fanatics.com members with 325/330s have been getting Technik stage 1 software to remove the delays. Info can be found at www.renn-sport.net.

Tim


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

tim330i said:


> A lot of E46Fanatics.com members with 325/330s have been getting Technik stage 1 software to remove the delays. Info can be found at www.renn-sport.net.
> 
> Tim


$839 for Stage 1 engine software.... :yikes:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

doeboy said:


> $839 for Stage 1 engine software.... :yikes:


 The stage 1 power kit includes a Gruppe M. Still pretty damned pricey, but somewhere slightly closer to the realm of reason.


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## mys_iii (May 9, 2003)

ff said:


> One word for you: emissions control
> 
> Well OK, that's two words. How much you want to bet that if you got rid of that nasty throttle delay, that the engine would lose its ULEV status (or whatever it is).


You may be right but that's absurd given today's technology and engineering. If a Corvette can have that much power and meet the standards while getting almost 30 MPG (so does a 911, actually), a 330i should definitely be able to without an annoying delay. As far as I can tell, that delay just means the car emits later as opposed to sooner so I don't see how it really lowers the overall emissions. There are plenty of cars out there that push the envelope and still offer good throttle response while meeting emissions requirements. Next!


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## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

uh what button w/SP...not on any 330 w/sp I've seen...

fact is the other cars equipped w/3.0l don't have this issue...I've driven a Z4 5spd and it does not exhibit such delay.


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## mys_iii (May 9, 2003)

PABS said:


> uh what button w/SP...not on any 330 w/sp I've seen...
> 
> fact is the other cars equipped w/3.0l don't have this issue...I've driven a Z4 5spd and it does not exhibit such delay.


If that is the case then this may be a marketing ploy by BMWNA. They don't want their non-sporty cars to be too responsive so that you'll buy the sporty models too. Otherwise, I can't see why they would put in different ECU's in different models with the same engine and most likely, same other parts. :tsk:


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## rmongiovi (Feb 7, 2003)

If that's the case, then the ploy is backfiring. All it's doing is convincing me to choose a different manufacturer next time.


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## rmongiovi (Feb 7, 2003)

My current question is "How do we band together and get BMW's attention on this?"

We had the "sticky throttle" problem, which was a physical problem with the design of the accelerator pedal. Somehow BMW noticed we weren't happy and designed a new pedal, and the new pedal is fantastic! It took them a year or so to do it, but we got there. So how do we get the same attention to this problem?


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## marcelgood (Jan 24, 2003)

You guys got me thinking. Is this a sedan only problem? I don't notice an artifical delay whatsoever. I hit the throttle and off it goes.


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## rmongiovi (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't believe so. I have a convertible, with steptronic even. Most of the time it's just fine. And then once or twice a week (or so) I hit the gas and it just sits there and stares at me for a second or a second and a half before it takes off. Most distressing especially with oncoming traffic.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

marcelgood said:


> You guys got me thinking. Is this a sedan only problem? I don't notice an artifical delay whatsoever. I hit the throttle and off it goes.


My suspicion is that the problem went away with the 6-speed. I drove a couple of pre March-2003 330i 5-speeds and saw the delay everyone speaks of in second gear. It was like the car didn't want to give all it had in second, a hesitation if you will.

I then drove two post-March 6-speeds (330i SP and 330i ZHP) and did not notice the problem. I also noticed that clutch engagement from a standstill was much easier on the post-March cars.


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## binaryfarms (Feb 2, 2003)

*Sedan owners take heart, my 330 coupe does it*

I notice it from time to time on my 03 330ci. My wife has even commented on it, and she's much less geeky on this stuff than me. It seems to come and go though, and has been better as I've gotten more miles on it, but it's still the only problem I have with the car. Sometimes it grabs hold and takes off like a bat outta hell, other times it lags SOOO badly, and slowly eases into what seems like severly limited power application.

If it's better with the new six speeds, maybe there's a chance they adjusted the DBW for the new models? If so, maybe there's a chance of a retrofit like the infamous steering fix?


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

As long as there's an interface between the gas pedal and the engine , the throttle delay will be there most of the time, IMO.

The Alpina has a very different mapping than the other BMWs I have driven so far (E46, E39, E60, Z4). It is near linear and the throttle response is excellent. 

Something I have learned lately is that re-programming Alpina ECU is not possible, that's why they are changing the control unit completely in case of a repair.


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## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

Alex:

I am software engineer. This is strictly a software problem. Since the butterfly is controlled by software then I can make it as fast or slow as I want. Like in the Z4 I can have a separate program for sport with a more aggressive curve. Heck I could even make a non linear curve that opened the butterfly with less pedal application.

There is obviously something coded in the ECU that is telling the system to either not open the butterfly or some how restrict air/fuel flow or something like that.

Point is, the behavior is totally unacceptable for no good reason.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

rmongiovi said:


> My current question is "How do we band together and get BMW's attention on this?"
> 
> We had the "sticky throttle" problem, which was a physical problem with the design of the accelerator pedal. Somehow BMW noticed we weren't happy and designed a new pedal, and the new pedal is fantastic! It took them a year or so to do it, but we got there. So how do we get the same attention to this problem?


It is a mystery to me too. For some issues, BMWNA wakes up and is suddenly very attentive (steering retrofit, sticky pedal). But other issues (some of which have festered for years, and are even more widely complained about), seem to go unnoticed. Strange.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

PABS said:


> Point is, the behavior is totally unacceptable for no good reason.


I completely agree.

On the other hand, I don't understand how the throttle delay (i.e. ECU mapping) is helping the emmission.

The question is, what is the purpose (not the reason) of throttle delay ? I remember reading somewhere that it's for the fuel efficiency. But as it's said above, there are other cars with stronger engines and better (or equal) fuel consumption. Were the cars without DBW burning more fuel ?

Hmmm....


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

PABS said:


> Alex:
> 
> I am software engineer. This is strictly a software problem. Since the butterfly is controlled by software then I can make it as fast or slow as I want. Like in the Z4 I can have a separate program for sport with a more aggressive curve. Heck I could even make a non linear curve that opened the butterfly with less pedal application.
> 
> ...


someone else asked steve dinan about this and got a long explanation about what the issue is: it has to do with the DBW throttle system and it is some sort of potentiometer mechanism and it is relatively adaptable to driving style....do a search for Paddle.Shift's thread on the Main board about resetting the ECU.....the explanation is in there.

basically what dinan software does (with some success) is to set the DBW throttel to full on, and gets rid of some of that delay. not perfect, but still far, far, far better than stock software.


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## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

Yeah I responded to that thread as well...I don't buy Dinan's explanation. 

The potentiometer is reading pedal position and sending a signal to the software. What come out the other end to the butterfly is controlled by the software. What happens in between if the coders responsibility.


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## marcelgood (Jan 24, 2003)

PABS said:


> Alex:
> 
> I am software engineer. This is strictly a software problem. Since the butterfly is controlled by software then I can make it as fast or slow as I want. Like in the Z4 I can have a separate program for sport with a more aggressive curve. Heck I could even make a non linear curve that opened the butterfly with less pedal application.
> 
> ...


I'm a Software Engineer, too and I agree that it is all a matter of software. What I have issue with is the "it comes and goes.." explanation of some members. Unless there's a bug in the software, things don't "come and go" with software and I would assume that by now BMW Engineers would have fixed such a bug. The throttle response should be consistent, since it is software that doesn't have a mind of its own. The only reason, why there could be inconsistent behavior is if the ECU takes some other inputs besides the throttle position into consideration, things as temperature, fuel quality etc. and that who knows maybe the engine does not get enough fuel for some reason, which causes the ECU to delay the throttle response. Anyway, there must be some input from some sensor or sensors that causes the delay under certain conditions and there's probably a good reason for that. Kinda a like the ECU retards the ignition timing if you have bad fuel quality.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

PABS said:


> Yeah I responded to that thread as well...I don't buy Dinan's explanation.
> 
> The potentiometer is reading pedal position and sending a signal to the software. What come out the other end to the butterfly is controlled by the software. What happens in between if the coders responsibility.


okay, but we agree that it's software, and that it seemingly adapts to driver input with time because i "reset" this adaptation when i drive the car and it reverts to pokey response again if i do not drive that vehicle for a week or so.

i think it's just typical DBW garbage and sloppy code. :dunno:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

marcelgood said:


> I'm a Software Engineer, too and I agree that it is all a matter of software. What I have issue with is the "it comes and goes.." explanation of some members. Unless there's a bug in the software, things don't "come and go" with software and I would assume that by now BMW Engineers would have fixed such a bug. The throttle response should be consistent, since it is software that doesn't have a mind of its own. The only reason, why there could be inconsistent behavior is if the ECU takes some other inputs besides the throttle position into consideration, things as temperature, fuel quality etc. and that who knows maybe the engine does not get enough fuel for some reason, which causes the ECU to delay the throttle response. Anyway, there must be some input from some sensor or sensors that causes the delay under certain conditions and there's probably a good reason for that. Kinda a like the ECU retards the ignition timing if you have bad fuel quality.


Very interesting points. So, this suggests that there are some default values which ECU is constantly comparing with and adjusting the throttle behavior.


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## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

Bingo. In my experience that is how all the ECU's work. Each manufacturer does it slightly different of course. BMW usually is better than most.

This is why I am so frustrated with this.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Just came across the link below. Interesting stuff.

http://www.evc.de/en/


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## rmongiovi (Feb 7, 2003)

Yes, of course. The engine, operating under the control of the ECU, is running some sort of algorithm, and therefore results should be repeatable. Nevertheless, the lousy throttle response clearly does "come and go", so there must be some input to the ECU that is triggering it. The point that has to be made here is that it happens relatively frequently. BMW must have the hardware to instrument the ECU and store its inputs and outputs for later examination. It wouldn't take very long driving the car with the instrumentation in place to determine what factor is causing the delay in acceleration.

My concern is that when there's oncoming traffic, and I mash on the gas pedal, I need the car to GO! Since the throttle response is unpredictable, I may have eased out halfway into oncoming traffic when I expected the car to launch itself and be humming down the highway. That's a great recipe for a trip to the body shop, or worse. This isn't a matter of a nit that annoys me, this is a case of I've been afraid I was going to end up in an accident because there was simply no way for me to force the car to do what I needed it to do....


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Can someone tell me if this is just a 3.0 problem? Does it affect the 2.5 as well?


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## DevExpert (Sep 6, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> Can someone tell me if this is just a 3.0 problem? Does it affect the 2.5 as well?


I've seen it on my 2003 325 xi...


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

DevExpert said:


> I've seen it on my 2003 325 xi...


I'm almost wondering with all this talk if I made a mistake ordering a 330 :dunno:


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## marcelgood (Jan 24, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> I'm almost wondering with all this talk if I made a mistake ordering a 330 :dunno:


Don't sweat it. I don't experience this delay at all on my MY04 coupe and I drive very spirited. If my throttle had a one second delay I would definitly notice that.


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## binaryfarms (Feb 2, 2003)

It definately comes and goes, I had chalked it up to the "adaptive throttle" that several people had talked about in the past. From these past posts, it was my understanding that the ECU tried to learn your driving habits. If you drive conservatively it would assume that you wanted smooth throttle application and ease into it it more slowly, almost assuming that any sudden increase in throttle application was a mistake that needed to be smoothed out. If you are aggressive, it assumes you are ok with rapid throttle changes and allows the throttle spikes more readily. Problem is, it seems that no matter how aggressive you are normally, there are times you need to take it easy, and now matter how tame you normally drive, there are times you need the car to get up and go, as in the oncoming traffic example. 

You guys seem to be much more versed in this stuff than some of the previous threads I've read on the topic. Is it possible that this is what's happening? Would it even be possible to switch DBW programs based on driving habits? How would it decide what was aggressive and what was not? Would it just be a timed based thing, if you spent the majority of the time driving one way or the other it could use this data to determine the throttle mapping? :dunno:


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## flashinthepan (Jul 25, 2003)

> I'm almost wondering with all this talk if I made a mistake ordering a 330


I have not noticed any throttle delay on my 04 330cic, in fact the throttle response is quite impressive ???

Hmmmm...... :dunno:


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## marcelgood (Jan 24, 2003)

binaryfarms said:


> It definately comes and goes, I had chalked it up to the "adaptive throttle" that several people had talked about in the past. From these past posts, it was my understanding that the ECU tried to learn your driving habits. If you drive conservatively it would assume that you wanted smooth throttle application and ease into it it more slowly, almost assuming that any sudden increase in throttle application was a mistake that needed to be smoothed out. If you are aggressive, it assumes you are ok with rapid throttle changes and allows the throttle spikes more readily. Problem is, it seems that no matter how aggressive you are normally, there are times you need to take it easy, and now matter how tame you normally drive, there are times you need the car to get up and go, as in the oncoming traffic example.
> 
> You guys seem to be much more versed in this stuff than some of the previous threads I've read on the topic. Is it possible that this is what's happening? Would it even be possible to switch DBW programs based on driving habits? How would it decide what was aggressive and what was not? Would it just be a timed based thing, if you spent the majority of the time driving one way or the other it could use this data to determine the throttle mapping? :dunno:


It would be pure speculation from my side. I have not heard anything conclusive to this. I only know for sure that Mercedes has the adaptive throttle and you can get rid of the grandma dust by stumping on the throttle a couple of times. The adaptive throttles monitor your most recent driving habits, but change the mapping pretty quickly after you change your style. If the BMW DBW truely is adaptive, then that would explain the "comes an goes..." theory.


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## rmongiovi (Feb 7, 2003)

I wouldn't think so. In my case, at least, the "comes and goes" means once or twice a week, separated by many, many normal starts. It's exactly like, one time only, you hit the gas and the engine says "ain't gonna!" It doesn't seem to be impacted by turning the DSC off, either.


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## PABS (Apr 3, 2003)

It appears that in later model years (maybe '03/'04) the problem may have been addressed. My car is MY'01.

I need to stop by the dealer. The problem is there is never a 3.0l E46 w/manual.

Even so, I would think that some one like Conforti would have figured it out.

Does any one know if we can e-mail Conforti. Might be very interesting if he would join our thread. 

Hmmmm....just looking for reasonable explanations.


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

Even if the problem has been addressed in later models, what we want is a software rev that will fix this problem in older models.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

JetBlack330i said:


> Even if the problem has been addressed in later models, what we want is a software rev that will fix this problem in older models.


I agree...

...BMW!?


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