# Dealer says I need a new cylinder head...thoughts?



## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

Background:
Bought car at 33k.
No problems until 36k. Problem occurred where idle was a little rough and acceleration from stop felt like it was 'kicking' until over 1k RPM. SES light comes on eventually. Brought to dealer. They kept it for 4 weeks, could NOT figure it out, PUMA case opened. After 4 weeks they gave it back saying it was fixed after 'significant diagnostics'. They gave no diagnosis but it was fine. I prodded further through phone calls but no official fix provided. The car ran great for 3.5 months.

March 2012: Issue from before re-occurs. SES light occurs, and same symptoms (rough idle, kicking randomly, kicking at acceleration whether in 1st or 2nd gear from a stop). Brought to dealer. They mentioned they would look at it immediately and they did. They've had it for a week, tried 'replacing a few parts'. I asked them to look at the MAF sensor, no dice unless they just ignored my suggestion.

Today get a call from my SA, they want to replace the cylinder head. They asked me to call back but I imagine it was just to explain and get permission. Anything seem off here to anyone else? This is a big fix that I am certainly worried about at 40k miles......


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Ask them why the head needs to be replced. Does it have low compression in a cylinder?


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

Under warranty still. Maybe good to get it fixed now.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

Hope that is core problem and all your troubles are resolved before factory warranty ends. Which dealer in Mass r u using for work?


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

F that tell them to give you ANOTHER engine its the 3rd time, fight them!!!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

You are not the first person to post up about replacement cylinder heads. I'd love to know what BMW's reason is for why the head needs to be replaced.


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## BrianNC81 (Dec 16, 2011)

They replaced my cylinder head due to carbon buildup. The engine was running just fine except I was getting a yellow SES light. Even after changing the cylinder head and EGR valve the SES came back. They ended up replacing the ECU which corrected the SES light issue. (ECU kicking false codes for replaced parts)


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Snipe656 said:


> You are not the first person to post up about replacement cylinder heads. I'd love to know what BMW's reason is for why the head needs to be replaced.


It sounds like they're just throwing parts at the problem. As Brian's experience showed the ECU was the cause of the SES indicator. If intake clogging was bad enough to warrant head/manifold replacement you can bet there'd be drivability issues as well.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

d geek said:


> It sounds like they're just throwing parts at the problem. As Brian's experience showed the ECU was the cause of the SES indicator. If intake clogging was bad enough to warrant head/manifold replacement you can bet there'd be drivability issues as well.


Yes, it does sound like just throwing parts at a problem(which seems more typical than not on these cars). But I am just curious if each person who had their cylinder head replaced was given the same basic reason as to why.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

BrianNC81 said:


> They replaced my cylinder head due to carbon buildup. The engine was running just fine except I was getting a yellow SES light. Even after changing the cylinder head and EGR valve the SES came back. They ended up replacing the ECU which corrected the SES light issue. (ECU kicking false codes for replaced parts)


This is the same reason I was given. Excessive carbon buildup. Honestly the SES light in my case isn't false, there are drive-ability issues. Hopefully that won't be the case after the replacement but we will see. I will report back once it is completed.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

bimmerdiesel said:


> Hope that is core problem and all your troubles are resolved before factory warranty ends. Which dealer in Mass r u using for work?


PM'd.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Curious to know about your driving habits. City, hwy, with traffic or faster?


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Curious to know about your driving habits. City, hwy, with traffic or faster?


70% highway, 30% city. Usually about 80 mph on highway at cruising speeds. I definitely don't track or ride the car hard really.


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## diesel335d011 (Apr 4, 2012)

I have a "rough" idle as well. 23k miles on my 2010 d. Every once in a while, I get a hesitation after it sits for a few days and I start moving (in 2nd gear,) reproduce-able on a certain road and conditions. That is rare, but the rough at idle is not (for instance when slowing to a light and the engine is idle.)

I drive about 50% suburban, 50% highway. My 50% suburban contains lights where I have to idle for minutes...


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

SpeedyD said:


> 70% highway, 30% city. Usually about 80 mph on highway at cruising speeds. I definitely don't track or ride the car hard really.


Makes me wonder about fuel quality ...cetane primarily

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Makes me wonder if there are some underlying EGR issues.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Makes me wonder about fuel quality ...cetane primarily
> 
> Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


I only use 'premium' stations for diesel (name brands)



Snipe656 said:


> Makes me wonder if there are some underlying EGR issues.


I can agree with this though...


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

SpeedyD said:


> I can agree with this though...


I only wonder on it because I have had EGR issues on my truck and it "plugged" up the intake tract and I am sure did a fair amount of carbon in the heads too. The descriptions I am reading here about the BMW cylinder head replacement needs just really reminds me of the same thing I was experiencing.

Carbon build up in the heads though is one of my fears with any direct injection engine. Not like any additive is going to address that after the fact since fuel should not be seeing the back side of the valves. This is why I try to run what I think are quality fuels.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

They mean carbon inside the cylinder no?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> They mean carbon inside the cylinder no?


If they are replacing the entire head then I assume they mean carbon inside the cylinder head itself. Since they probably feel only way to remove is via taking the head apart? Although I bet a back purge could get most if not all out.


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## wanderlust (Feb 19, 2012)

in all honesty it does not seem like ebay seller speaks english well

powered by lemings


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## ojk995 (Sep 25, 2009)

*EGR/Cylinder head problem*

I too am dealing with an EGR/cylinder head replacement ordeal with what used to be VOB bmw in Rockville, md. They've had my car for almost a month now. So far they've reinstalled the ecu software, replaced cylinder #2, EGR valve, and now they tell me it is throwing a code for cyliner #4. The 2010 335d has 44K miles and I'm worried this could be a continual and very expensive issues once it goes out of warranty. Any thoughts?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

What does it mean to replace cylinder #2?


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

It's beginning to sound like the engineers at BMW have (had) a flawed approach to feeding our engines with the EGR. Unfortunately, when I read the description of the complicated EGR system (does BMW know any other way?) that they put on our engines, I'm concerned that we might not be able to install a simple bypass. 

I hope we can figure this one out - I have been planning to keep the car, and this issue is, to me, very worrisome.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

ojk995 said:


> I too am dealing with an EGR/cylinder head replacement ordeal with what used to be VOB bmw in Rockville, md. They've had my car for almost a month now. So far they've reinstalled the ecu software, replaced cylinder #2, EGR valve, and now they tell me it is throwing a code for cyliner #4. The 2010 335d has 44K miles and I'm worried this could be a continual and very expensive issues once it goes out of warranty. Any thoughts?


This is almost the exact sequence of events for my car also. Still at the dealership as the head took 2 weeks to get here from Germany. I'll keep everyone updated but certainly concerning that I am not the only one...


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## ojk995 (Sep 25, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> What does it mean to replace cylinder #2?


sorry, meant cylinder head #2. I'm really concerned that if they replace the #4 cylinder head, then it will say there is a misfire on #6, if that is the sequence.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

ojk995 said:


> I too am dealing with an EGR/cylinder head replacement ordeal with what used to be VOB bmw in Rockville, md. They've had my car for almost a month now. So far they've reinstalled the ecu software, replaced cylinder #2, EGR valve, and now they tell me it is throwing a code for cyliner #4. The 2010 335d has 44K miles and I'm worried this could be a continual and very expensive issues once it goes out of warranty. Any thoughts?


Wow another one.... Look at the bright side, just be thankful its not VOB anymore. I too go to this dealer for service so will be interested to hear your thoughts on your service experiencr under new ownership.

What was the code your car through for the cylindar head?

Goog luck and keep us posted.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

62Lincoln said:


> I hope we can figure this one out - I have been planning to keep the car, and this issue is, to me, very worrisome.


I agree.....


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

ojk995 said:


> sorry, meant cylinder head #2. I'm really concerned that if they replace the #4 cylinder head, then it will say there is a misfire on #6, if that is the sequence.


I am still confused because the car only has one cylinder head, not six of them. Unless I just have been grossly misinformed.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> I am still confused because the car only has one cylinder head, not six of them. Unless I just have been grossly misinformed.


No you are correct, just one head. Maybe he meant injector?


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

BTW has any 2011 had this issue yet, Im scared myself since I have the RENNtech flash!!


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## ojk995 (Sep 25, 2009)

*Soot buildup on EGR and Head*

Finally, after 32 days, got my 2010 335d back from dealer. They basically replaced the cylinder head, EGR, and DDE(not sure what that is), as well as most of the sensors. What scares the hell out of me is that the SA told me when I picked up the car that the labor alone, if not under warranty, would have been $14,000!! I have 45K miles on the car. He also said the only explanation for the buildup is that I'm not driving the car hard enough. 
What can I do? I love the car. For me, it's the perfect combo. of power, handling, and economy. Having said that, I can't rationalize keeping it if I'm going to have to have the whole engine de-gunked every 40K miles. What do you all think about this???


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

ojk995 said:


> Finally, after 32 days, got my 2010 335d back from dealer. They basically replaced the cylinder head, EGR, and DDE(not sure what that is), as well as most of the sensors. What scares the hell out of me is that the SA told me when I picked up the car that the labor alone, if not under warranty, would have been $14,000!! I have 45K miles on the car. He also said the only explanation for the buildup is that I'm not driving the car hard enough.
> What can I do? I love the car. For me, it's the perfect combo. of power, handling, and economy. Having said that, I can't rationalize keeping it if I'm going to have to have the whole engine de-gunked every 40K miles. What do you all think about this???


I got mine back yesterday also. Same parts replaced as you (Cylinder head, head gasket, EGR Valve, DDE (it is part of the computer that throws the SES lights). My SA told me 9k in parts, probably 5k in labor. Extended warranty time.....mine is at 41k miles.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I say BS to the reason being not driving it hard enough. Do not know why but everytime I hear a person given that reason for any car, I cringe. I have heard that reason given from anything to a simple gas powered Bug all te way up to high end AMGs.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

SpeedyD said:


> I got mine back yesterday also. Same parts replaced as you (Cylinder head, head gasket, EGR Valve, *DDE* (it is part of the computer that throws the SES lights). My SA told me 9k in parts, probably 5k in labor. Extended warranty time.....mine is at 41k miles.


More on the DDE:
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/...uide/articles/digital_diesel_electronics.html

My SA did say that they thought the DDE was the underlying issue and the updated DDE should resolve it. We will see though...who the hell knows.


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## jashearer (Nov 9, 2011)

32 days 

You need to look into your states lemon laws. Seems to me, they are just throwing parts at a problem and hoping they stick.

Lemon it out and get see if you can find a leftover '11 hanging around somewhere for a smoking deal, and hope that its not a design problem.

Jay


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

jashearer said:


> 32 days
> 
> You need to look into your states lemon laws. Seems to me, they are just throwing parts at a problem and hoping they stick.
> 
> ...


Mine was there for 42 days. At least 30 of them was 'waiting for parts from Germany'.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

SpeedyD said:


> Mine was there for 42 days. At least 30 of them was 'waiting for parts from Germany'.


My car was once in the shop for around a month. The bulk of that was waiting on a single sensor from Germany. Everytime my car has needed a part specific to it being a diesel, ends up turning into huge delays for the parts. I find it a little baffling that it seems more the norm than the exception.


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## BrianNC81 (Dec 16, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> I say BS to the reason being not driving it hard enough. Do not know why but everytime I hear a person given that reason for any car, I cringe. I have heard that reason given from anything to a simple gas powered Bug all te way up to high end AMGs.


I think there may be some truth to the not driving the 335d hard enough. Diesel engines generally thrive on being loaded down so that they reach operating temperature. 425 lb torque moving 3800lb car hardly puts a load on the engine when driven "normally". The x5 on the other hand is heavier and I'm sure the 3.0 is worked harder thus reaching operating temperature quicker. The dealer that fixed mine stated they have not seen any carbon buildup issues with the same engine in the x5d. I'm curious if anyone with an X5 has had similar issues.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

BrianNC81 said:


> I think there may be some truth to the not driving the 335d hard enough. Diesel engines generally thrive on being loaded down so that they reach operating temperature. 425 lb torque moving 3800lb car hardly puts a load on the engine when driven "normally". The x5 on the other hand is heavier and I'm sure the 3.0 is worked harder thus reaching operating temperature quicker. The dealer that fixed mine stated they have not seen any carbon buildup issues with the same engine in the x5d. I'm curious if anyone with an X5 has had similar issues.


I still am going to say BS to that being the reason for this happening. But if it is truly the reason then there must be countless non US 335d examples people could show me. Simple fact remains everytime I have heard this reason given for any type car it is pretty hard to find many examples at all of cars with similar issues of their intake/heads "gumming up" and I doubt it is because of a shortage of old ladies to drive the cars in this world. Also if it is because of driving nicely then why did the DDE need to be replaced and I bet could question a number of other items that were thrown at the car in hopes of fixing the problem.

I think it is trying to lay blame on the customer over admitting the car has an issue but they are not too certain what that issue actually is. Accepting reasons like this dealer gives to me implies the cars are poorly engineered for a variety of driving conditions.


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## pjuhlin (Jan 28, 2013)

I have an extended warranty that the dealer recommended I purchase through AUL warranty company. They are not whiling to cover it due to their claim of this being an emissions issue.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

pjuhlin said:


> I have an extended warranty that the dealer recommended I purchase through AUL warranty company. They are not whiling to cover it due to their claim of this being an emissions issue.


Oh damn, that sucks. I will say that is why I went with the BMW warranty.

So your warranty company won't pay because it is emissions related, and BMW won't pay because they say it isn't? Somebody is wrong but that is going to be tough to convince one of them...


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

pjuhlin said:


> I have an extended warranty that the dealer recommended I purchase through AUL warranty company. They are not whiling to cover it due to their claim of this being an emissions issue.


What all is the dealer wanting to replace and how much do they want to charge?


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## pjuhlin (Jan 28, 2013)

They are wanting to replace the intake manifold take the head apart and clean all the carbon out by doing a Walnut shell blast. Total cost $4,8000!!!!!!!!


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

pjuhlin said:


> They are wanting to replace the intake manifold take the head apart and clean all the carbon out by doing a Walnut shell blast. Total cost $4,8000!!!!!!!!


Sounds about right (cost-wise). I had the cylinder head replaced, EGR valve and a million other parts replaced and between parts and labor it was a bit over $14,000. Of course, this was covered 100% under warranty. It was the obvious #1 reason I got the extended warranty.


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## UncleJ (May 7, 2006)

There is a seperate emissions warranty mandated by the fed -- and in CA an even more comprehensive warranty mandated by CARB. I would certainly check your emissions warranty carefully to see if any of this can be covered.:dunno:


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

SpeedyD said:


> Sounds about right (cost-wise). I had the cylinder head replaced, EGR valve and a million other parts replaced and between parts and labor it was a bit over $14,000. Of course, this was covered 100% under warranty. It was the obvious #1 reason I got the extended warranty.


Thats nuts! I think it would have been cheaper to just swap the entire engine..


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

pjuhlin said:


> They are wanting to replace the intake manifold take the head apart and clean all the carbon out by doing a Walnut shell blast. Total cost $4,8000!!!!!!!!


Do they give a break down on the costs? I am curious how much of that is just the intake. It to me seems pretty high but I never have done the job before. Seems almost like that cost has multiple days worth of labor within it.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

pjuhlin said:


> They are wanting to replace the intake manifold take the head apart and clean all the carbon out by doing a Walnut shell blast. Total cost $4,8000!!!!!!!!


For that chunk of change I would look at Luqui Moly diesel products first.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

KeithS said:


> Thats nuts! I think it would have been cheaper to just swap the entire engine..


Well parts was about 60% of the cost. The cylinder head, DDE (computer) and a couple other parts were absurdly expensive. Plus they had my car for 4 weeks between diagnosing it and waiting for parts from Germany (they weren't stocked in the US).


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## moorefa (Feb 9, 2014)

I have a 335D with 51k miles - Just had the same issue. Car went into limp home mode. Dealer states that the cylinder head was clogged with carbon and they had shipped it to a machine shop.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

moorefa said:


> I have a 335D with 51k miles - Just had the same issue. Car went into limp home mode. Dealer states that the cylinder head was clogged with carbon and they had shipped it to a machine shop.


What year is the car?


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## moorefa (Feb 9, 2014)

keiths said:


> what year is the car?


2011 -


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## mt3ch (May 4, 2003)

Ah, $1900 for 7yr/100k extended BMW wty sounds like a deal right now!


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## terry740 (Apr 2, 2008)

Lots of egr comments in other forums. The forums in the U.K. sometimes are useful because they've had the diesels in Europe much longer.
I recently saw a a YouTube video of a guy vieotaping the output of his EGR (smoke and soot!)


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## rg (Dec 24, 2001)

mt3ch said:


> Ah, $1900 for 7yr/100k extended BMW wty sounds like a deal right now!
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


The BMW warranty (any level, including Platinum) specifically excludes carbon buildup.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Carbon build up is the symptom, not the cause.

You need to argue for the root cause of the problem to be addressed.

Good luck!


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## mt3ch (May 4, 2003)

Thats not what happened to SpeedyD in his posts.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

mt3ch said:


> Thats not what happened to SpeedyD in his posts.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


There is a difference here.

If you go into the dealership and ask for them to clean your carbon buildup, as a preventative measure or 'just because', that won't fall under warranty.

If you have engine problems/SES lights/limp mode/etc... and they determine it is due to carbon buildup, it will be covered.


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

*my story*

Hi, I'm new to the forum and had been looking for other people with 335d problems. I bought my 2011 in October 2011, it was a loaner with 4500 miles.

I absolutely love driving this car, but then SES appeared in November 2012, after 3 months of going in and out of service, my dealer works with BMW and figured out the valves need cleaning due to carbon build up. Car comes back and runs great until November 2013, seems like the car really does not like the cold and prefers to spend its time at the dealership, as it throws the SES a couple more times. At this point the car has 48.5k miles on it, so barely covered under warranty. I make a stink with the dealer how they need to fix the problem correctly and not just keep replacing sensors and such as the problem comes back within a week.

They again run extensive diagnostics with BMW NA and determine cylinder block needs to be reviewed, as they take apart, a lot of carbon build up is found. Everything gets cleaned and I question how they are going to fix this permanently. The final answer, by replacing the manifold with a newly designed gasket that prevents leakage and carbon buildup.

I have been waiting for almost 3 months now, so they have offered to sell me a 328D at a very nicely discounted rate. Of course this comes with a new 50k warranty and maintenance, which looks like a no-brainer after reading about the frequency of this problem and difficulty of resolution.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

goesD said:


> Hi, I'm new to the forum and had been looking for other people with 335d problems. I bought my 2011 in October 2011, it was a loaner with 4500 miles.
> 
> I absolutely love driving this car, but then SES appeared in November 2012, after 3 months of ..........


I have almost the exact same car. A 2011 service loaner that I got in Nov 2011 with 8000 miles. Currently at 44k miles. I've never had SES, in fact the only warranty item so far was the AC belt. I'm baffled Why the exact same cars behave so differently.

In regards to the 328d. As long as the intoxicating torque of the 6 cyl is not a MUST have, and it's a really good deal, I would take it.


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

Did you get yours from Park Ave? I was looking at a blue one with beige interior there around the same time. I chose mine as it had m sports package with saddle brown interior. I agree that this issue seems isolated to a number of them, certainly not all. People say you have to drive them hard to avoid the problem, well did that, did not help. 

Surprisingly, BMW NA has really made a nice offer and I have accepted pending test drive. The car is in port right now, hopefully it will come in this week.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

goesD said:


> Did you get yours from Park Ave? I was looking at a blue one with beige interior there around the same time. I chose mine as it had m sports package with saddle brown interior. I agree that this issue seems isolated to a number of them, certainly not all. People say you have to drive them hard to avoid the problem, well did that, did not help.
> 
> Surprisingly, BMW NA has really made a nice offer and I have accepted pending test drive. The car is in port right now, hopefully it will come in this week.


Actually purchased mine from Flemington. I really wasn't looking for a diesel at the time but it was sitting on the showroom floor, and I always like something a little different than everyone else is driving. I'm sure we would all like a detailed review/opinion of a 328d coming from a 335d owner.

I'm thinking that rumor about driving them hard to avoid carbon is nothing more than that, a rumor. My wife drives the car at least 1/2 the time if not more, and she's not aggressive at all. So drive them hard if you want to (won't hurt them), not because you think you have to. I'm sure that excuse will not fly with the police when they pull you over.


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

Indeed it did not. Going over a 100 on rt.80 is still frowned upon. It will be a good thing to have a little less torque... Looking forward to writing up a comparison.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> Carbon build up is the symptom, not the cause.
> 
> *You need to argue for the root cause of the problem to be addressed.*
> 
> Good luck!


I doubt that BMW will be admitting the EGR system is the root cause of the carbon build-up problem anytime soon.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

goesD said:


> Hi, I'm new to the forum and had been looking for other people with 335d problems. I bought my 2011 in October 2011, it was a loaner with 4500 miles.
> 
> I absolutely love driving this car, but then SES appeared in November 2012, after 3 months of going in and out of service, my dealer works with BMW and figured out the valves need cleaning due to carbon build up. Car comes back and runs great until November 2013, seems like the car really does not like the cold and prefers to spend its time at the dealership, as it throws the SES a couple more times. At this point the car has 48.5k miles on it, so barely covered under warranty. I make a stink with the dealer how they need to fix the problem correctly and not just keep replacing sensors and such as the problem comes back within a week.
> 
> ...


Something is amiss here. They cleaned the valves initially? Technically that's not possible without also cleaning the narrow intake tracts within the head as well. BMW has not created a tool for it unlike what they use for gassers. If the dealer pulled the head to remove the valves for cleaning then shame on them for not also sending the head out for cleaning. In fact I'm surprised BMW didn't require it the first time since it's in their best interest from a financial perspective to get the warranty repair done correctly the first time. The amount of time remaining on your factory warranty is a moot point because they obviously haven't fixed the problem while you were under warranty.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

A gasket that prevents buildup? Sounds like a pretty large serving of nonsense.


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## luigi524td (Apr 4, 2005)

*BMW Diesel issues in United States/Canada?*

BMW diesels have been running on other parts of the world for years so I wonder if the string of issues are limited to countries with different emissions requirements, engine management system settings, fuel, etc.

I've been wanting to give serious consideration to a 535d but have had my desires dampened by stories as reported on this thread. :thumbdwn:


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

luigi524td said:


> BMW diesels have been running on other parts of the world for years so I wonder if the string of issues are limited to countries with different emissions requirements, engine management system settings, fuel, etc.
> 
> I've been wanting to give serious consideration to a 535d but have had my desires dampened by stories as reported on this thread. :thumbdwn:


535d uses the newest engine family (N57). Our cars use M57. The only possible issue would be if they used a similar head design but I doubt it. IIRC the N57 is part of BMW's modular engine initiative where gas and diesel share many of the same parts.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Hoooper said:


> A gasket that prevents buildup? Sounds like a pretty large serving of nonsense.


Was thinking the same thing unless they had some gasket leaking issues being handled at the same time. Wonder if they can coat (like with Teflon) the surfaces of the intake and if that would help? We keep hearing about a redesigned intake, but unless they redesign the entire engine (at least the head) I can't see the ability to make any substantial changes in a physical sense other than using different materials.

I also believe these issues are directly related to emissions systems and the fact that soot is ported directly into the engine via EGR.


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## Geotrash (Dec 22, 2013)

KeithS said:


> I also believe these issues are directly related to emissions systems and the fact that soot is ported directly into the engine via EGR.


EGR systems are evil in gasoline engines as well. I pulled the heads on my old Acura Legend a few years ago after a gasket failure and found the plenums in the intake manifold severely restricted with carbon, some ancillary ports completely closed off, and the intake ports in the heads also restricted. All of this was contributing to drivability issues that accumulated so slowly I only noticed the difference one I drove the car after reassembly. Amazing performance by comparison.

I can't see how we would NOT have severe problems with EGR systems on any diesel automotive engine - including my 328d. I'm bracing for this issue to crop up now on mine in the future.

Dave


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

goesD said:


> Hi, I'm new to the forum and had been looking for other people with 335d problems. I bought my 2011 in October 2011, it was a loaner with 4500 miles.
> 
> I absolutely love driving this car, but then SES appeared in November 2012, ...
> I have been waiting for almost 3 months now, so they have offered to sell me a 328D at a very nicely discounted rate. Of course this comes with a new 50k warranty and maintenance, which looks like a no-brainer after reading about the frequency of this problem and difficulty of resolution.


The F30 328d is a very nice car, but there are substantial differences between it and the E90 335d. It has less power, and is definitely a bit softer and plusher ride (of course I've not driven a sport/msport 328d and my 335d is sport). If you like it, go for it. Or buy an extended warranty for the 335d - make the dealer discount it down to $2K or so in light of your problems.


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Something is amiss here. They cleaned the valves initially? Technically that's not possible without also cleaning the narrow intake tracts within the head as well. BMW has not created a tool for it unlike what they use for gassers. If the dealer pulled the head to remove the valves for cleaning then shame on them for not also sending the head out for cleaning. In fact I'm surprised BMW didn't require it the first time since it's in their best interest from a financial perspective to get the warranty repair done correctly the first time. The amount of time remaining on your factory warranty is a moot point because they obviously haven't fixed the problem while you were under warranty.


Ok, let me try to be as specific as possible about the history of service and current situation. My first SES happened late 10-15-12, cannot find the service paperwork, but they reset the SES and sent it back, as they could not find any issue. 
11-6-12 car goes back in with same SES, they identify same error and determine that it is too much work to run the same test plan as on 10-15 as everything came back ok. Removed the air tube of the EGR and from the EG cooler on front of engine. some soot noted, but not excessive. They created PUMA case and ran a few more tests, no leakage of smoke noted anywhere, no extreme soot build up looking into intake manifold past the EGR valve and diesel throttle valve. Tested valve cycles and works smoothly. Puma instructs to replace DDE, no more SES, car comes back.
30-11-12, SES comes back, I notice a drop in fuel efficiency, PUMA case re-opened and updated. Intake manifold removed to take pictures for PUMA, only slight residue in ports, should not be an issue. After reinstalling the intake manifold and replacing air mass meter, they removed the SCR valve, they found def crystals severely clogging up the ports of the valve. After replacement and valve calibration car comes back and drives fantastic.
11-13-13, SES comes back on, garage very busy, waits for a week in the shop and by the time they examine no more SES, they check logs from key and find that the air temp sensor needs to be replaced.
12-10-13, SES is back on car gets picked up on 12-17-13. After examination with another PUMA case, they are instructed to remove cylinder block, once removed a lot soot and build up is found. They will send out for cleaning and should be back in 2 weeks. Early January 2014, I check in to see when I can get my car back and they tell me that BMW recommends a new intake manifold design (not sure if this involves a gasket or not). None available, should be a few weeks. I am in no rush, we have a harsh winter so I "enjoy" driving the X1 loaner for now. 
2-19-14 Salesperson from dealer calls to inform me that the part is not available and that BMW feels bad, the dealer as been working with BMW NA and they are willing to sell me a 2014 for invoice minus a big BMW incentive.

I ask about the 328D, as that is the only suitable replacement in my mind. They don't have any so no deal. The following week I notice they have a few 328Ds in stock so I reach out to see if there is any progress on my car and if they are now interested in dealing me a 328D.
We go back and forward over the phone for a couple of days, talking price and model/options and we come to an agreement.The last 2 winters (only winters I owned the 335D), I have not really driven my car, but mostly loaners. While this has saved on mileage, it has been frustrating to say the least. Bottom line, I am ready to move on to something reliable, absolutely uncertain whether the 328D will fit that bill.

I really hope this clarifies things for everyone, I don't really understand engines, that may be obvious, but I tried to put the techs words in verbatim as they are on the service reports.


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

floydarogers said:


> The F30 328d is a very nice car, but there are substantial differences between it and the E90 335d. It has less power, and is definitely a bit softer and plusher ride (of course I've not driven a sport/msport 328d and my 335d is sport). If you like it, go for it. Or buy an extended warranty for the 335d - make the dealer discount it down to $2K or so in light of your problems.


I have been toying with the extended warranty idea in my head. The 335D is fully loaded with M sports package (56.7k sticker back in the day), my wife does not even want to ride in it as she finds it way too stiff, I mostly drive highway, so maybe the 328D is the better car for me. I will miss the punch, but as posted earlier that may not be such a bad thing...


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

goesD said:


> I have been toying with the extended warranty idea in my head. The 335D is fully loaded with M sports package (56.7k sticker back in the day), my wife does not even want to ride in it as she finds it way too stiff, I mostly drive highway, so maybe the 328D is the better car for me. I will miss the punch, but as posted earlier that may not be such a bad thing...


IMO, the 328d will be better...
1) Wife will like it
2) Engine is more stressed than the 35d; many people believe that that is part of the problem with 35d, as the X5/35d has not had problems like 335d have experienced. X5 has different EGR system (carbon) and higher load due to 1000 lbs and more wind resistance.
3) 2L turbo-diesel has many more examples and more testing due to more sales - fewer problems, probably.
4) Killer mileage.


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

floydarogers said:


> IMO, the 328d will be better...
> 1) Wife will like it
> 2) Engine is more stressed than the 35d; many people believe that that is part of the problem with 35d, as the X5/35d has not had problems like 335d have experienced. X5 has different EGR system (carbon) and higher load due to 1000 lbs and more wind resistance.
> 3) 2L turbo-diesel has many more examples and more testing due to more sales - fewer problems, probably.
> 4) Killer mileage.


After #1, the rest didn't really matter right?


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

floydarogers said:


> IMO, the 328d will be better...
> 1) Wife will like it
> 2) Engine is more stressed than the 35d; many people believe that that is part of the problem with 35d, as the X5/35d has not had problems like 335d have experienced. X5 has different EGR system (carbon) and higher load due to 1000 lbs and more wind resistance.
> 3) 2L turbo-diesel has many more examples and more testing due to more sales - fewer problems, probably.
> 4) Killer mileage.


I'm not so sure. I've had a 328i loaner for a while now and it's more like a glorified Maxima. It's a nice car no doubt, but if it weren't for the 8 sp AT it would be a bigger disappointment. I also notice a weird grabbing from the steering wheel as you slowly unwind when coming out of a curve.

The [email protected] key fob thing is stupid. No place to put the damn fob unless you opt for the convience pkg or whatever they call it. I also can't stand the electronic parking.


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## ficklerx (Sep 16, 2013)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> I'm not so sure. I've had a 328i loaner for a while now and it's more like a glorified Maxima. It's a nice car no doubt, but if it weren't for the 8 sp AT it would be a bigger disappointment. I also notice a weird grabbing from the steering wheel as you slowly unwind when coming out of a curve.
> 
> The [email protected] key fob thing is stupid. No place to put the damn fob unless you opt for the convience pkg or whatever they call it. I also can't stand the electronic parking.


Wow! Could not have said it better. I have been with a 328i for a little over 10,000 miles. I haven't noticed the steering issue, other than the terrible electric pump.

Everything else is spot on, especially the key fob.....no where to put it. Still can't get used to the ASS button and have repeatedly restarted the car after parking it. Supposedly there is an update that will allow you to turn it off and it stay off, but I can't bring myself to ask for software updates on a loaner......maybe when schedule it for service they will do it for me.

Overall, the hatred I have developed for the F30 has made me not even pursue a 'generous' BMW incentive to consider a 328d. Mine will eventually be ready and will hopefully have an extended warranty. 136 days and counting!


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

ficklerx said:


> Wow! Could not have said it better. I have been with a 328i for a little over 10,000 miles. I haven't noticed the steering issue, other than the terrible electric pump.
> 
> Everything else is spot on, especially the key fob.....no where to put it. Still can't get used to the ASS button and have repeatedly restarted the car after parking it. Supposedly there is an update that will allow you to turn it off and it stay off, but I can't bring myself to ask for software updates on a loaner......maybe when schedule it for service they will do it for me.
> 
> Overall, the hatred I have developed for the F30 has made me not even pursue a 'generous' BMW incentive to consider a 328d. Mine will eventually be ready and will hopefully have an extended warranty. 136 days and counting!


I will await test drive for final decision, however appreciate the feedback on the 328i models. The ASS has not been a problem in the past. The X1 loaner has it and seems fine, took some getting used to. I was considering the 328D already for other reasons, as mentioned previously, but with the extra incentive it really makes sense. As long as I like the handling and feel of the car. I like the 335D, but not sure if I want to keep dealing with issues, not that there is any guarantees on that with the 328D.


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## stclairej (Jun 19, 2013)

goesD said:


> After #1, the rest didn't really matter right?


You guys are depressing the hell out of me....


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Question for anyone who has had to replace either the intake or head for carbon build-up: Are there any of you from CA? The reason I ask is that I am thinking the carbon build-up is related to low cetane number of the fuel. If no CA owners have had to replace either the head or intake for carbon build-up, that would tend to confirm my theory, since CA diesel is mandated by CARB to have a minimum cetane number of 53.

So, back to my question - have any CA owners had to replace either the head or intake for carbon build-up?

Thanks in advance.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

anE934fun said:


> ...CA diesel is mandated by CARB to have a minimum cetane number of 53...


This is not entirely accurate. CARB diesel min cetane number is 40, like most of the rest of the nation. But because of other requirements for CARB diesel that demand different refining and/or additives, higher cetane typically is the result.

Many people get tripped up on this because the CARB specs allow for "alternative refining" for small volume refiners, and under certain scenarios one of these specs is that cetane must be at least 53.

Its a subtle distinction, but what you need to remember is that if they ever find a way of refining diesel to meet the CARB distinctive specs (I believe it is aromatic hydrocarbon content), without having higher cetane, and they can save a fraction of a cent in doing so, then they will have lower cetane.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

d geek said:


> This is not entirely accurate. CARB diesel min cetane number is 40, like most of the rest of the nation. But because of other requirements for CARB diesel that demand different refining and/or additives, higher cetane typically is the result.
> 
> Many people get tripped up on this because the CARB specs allow for "alternative refining" for small volume refiners, and under certain scenarios one of these specs is that cetane must be at least 53.
> 
> Its a subtle distinction, but what you need to remember is that if they ever find a way of refining diesel to meet the CARB distinctive specs (I believe it is aromatic hydrocarbon content), without having higher cetane, and they can save a fraction of a cent in doing so, then they will have lower cetane.


It is aromatic content/volatility in the fuel spec that sets CARB diesel apart from the rest of the ULSD in the U.S. I completely agree that if refiners find a way to meet the requirements of CARB diesel with a lower cetane number, if the cost savings are there, they will do it in a nanosecond. However,... given that we are talking about fundamental physics of fuel properties, that point may be off in the future - when the carbon build-up issue has hopefully been solved (and my d has gone off to d heaven). 

Meanwhile, I am curious to learn if any CA 335d owners have had the carbon build-up issue. Anyone?


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## Frediesel (Apr 28, 2012)

Not me, 2011 335d 53,000 miles. Live in SD drive to LA 1 to 2xs per month. Daily 20 mile commute (weekdays) mostly highway (80-90%). I use Chevron and at 50,000 miles started using PowerService Diesel Kleen. JBD as well after 50,000.


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## goesD (Mar 2, 2014)

goesD said:


> I will await test drive for final decision, however appreciate the feedback on the 328i models. The ASS has not been a problem in the past. The X1 loaner has it and seems fine, took some getting used to. I was considering the 328D already for other reasons, as mentioned previously, but with the extra incentive it really makes sense. As long as I like the handling and feel of the car. I like the 335D, but not sure if I want to keep dealing with issues, not that there is any guarantees on that with the 328D.


OK, I test drove the 328D and was pleasantly surprised. It is not comparable to the 335D, its a totally different car. I have driven about 250 miles with it and I am happy with the way it handles, it does not have the power of the 335D, but that was to be expected. As mentioned before, the trims on both cars are very similar, just not the M sports package on the 2014 328D. It seems to be a more practical daily driver for my purposes anyhow. I will write up a more detailed comparison, after a few thousand miles and past the break-in period.

While I was at the dealer on Saturday, I emptied my car and my manifold was laying in the service area, I took a quick picture to show the carbon/soot build up. I don't really have a frame of reference of how bad this looks, but thought some of you on here might find it interesting.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

anE934fun said:


> Meanwhile, I am curious to learn if any CA 335d owners have had the carbon build-up issue. Anyone?


yes, there have been a handful who have posted their CBU woes in CA. CA diesel does not prevent buildup. From e90post: dixy2k, thepicturepro...others. I can recall several others who posted their issues from within CA. Probably more telling though are those who live in CA and have posted after visiting dealerships that had several 335ds in for CBU, according to the service managers. A poster from San Diego noted his service adviser was seeing 335ds and even x5ds with increasing frequency with clogged heads.



goesD said:


> While I was at the dealer on Saturday, I emptied my car and my manifold was laying in the service area, I took a quick picture to show the carbon/soot build up. I don't really have a frame of reference of how bad this looks, but thought some of you on here might find it interesting.


Doesnt look that bad really, there have been way worse posted. After seeing several of these that dont really look that bad, Im inclined to believe the difference between codes/drivability issues is in the head more so than the intake.


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## turbi (Apr 4, 2014)

*carbon*

we also have a 335d 2011 in the shop for carbon. I will keep you posted. As of now not looking good. kc


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## turbi (Apr 4, 2014)

*carbon*

got the car back today. in a nut shell they pulled the head and cleaned it.lapped the valves,new seals,head gasket etc. I would have liked a new head but oh well. will keep posted on the vehicle running condition kc


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

turbi said:


> got the car back today. in a nut shell they pulled the head and cleaned it.lapped the valves,new seals,head gasket etc. I would have liked a new head but oh well. will keep posted on the vehicle running condition kc


How many miles? Under warranty I am hoping?


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## turbi (Apr 4, 2014)

52,00 miles with ext warranty. the engine light just came on so back it goes. i will update soon. kid says it runs very good. maybe some residual fluids i hope. kc


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

turbi said:


> 52,00 miles with ext warranty. the engine light just came on so back it goes. i will update soon. kid says it runs very good. maybe some residual fluids i hope. kc


Probably need a DDE replacement if they didn't already do that.


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## robster10 (Oct 8, 2012)

If the head is carbon filled, the intake must be, as well as egr, and DPF. $$$$$


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## turbi (Apr 4, 2014)

I just took it for a spin with the wife and it runs terrible. She has a rough idle and hesitates pretty good. Car goes back in monday. will keep posting progress.


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## turbi (Apr 4, 2014)

picked up the car today. runs awesome. so a cylinder head and dde fixed it. kc


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