# Any thoughts on long term durability of the 335d?



## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

I have 33k on mine now and have had zero problems other than routine maintenance. I keep tabs on the forum and have not observed any trends in engineered defects. This being my first BMW, my question for those of you who have owned more than one or who have many more miles on your 335d is whether the lack of overt problems with the design imply a trouble-free future. When there are design flaws, when would one expect them to emerge. I have mostly owned Japanese cars before this one so i do not have a good frame of reference.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

IME, having owned BMWs for over 30 years, they last just as long or longer than Hondas or Toyotas (we currently have 3 Toys in our drive). The engines are completely bullet-proof, as long as they are maintained (mostly cooling systems). Transmissions were somewhat problematical in the E46 era. Suspension components wear out - this is almost universal, as they're all sealed any more with no grease fittings. It seems pretty obvious that the electrical systems are a problem spot in recent years, but at least they're not Lucas! The bodies remain solid out beyond 200K miles.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I have a really hard time believing that any modern car can't last to at least 200k miles with minimal repairs and of course all maintenance done. In my experience at least one high dollar repair happens somewhere in the 150-200k range for any make/model. The exceptions to this still usually do not present the needed repairs until post 100k miles. I have a feeling this is why most manufacturers are so willing to do CPO warranties up to at least 100k miles these days.


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## AZ335D (Aug 19, 2010)

Mine has been in the shop an average of once every 2-3 months for non-scheduled repairs for the last year and a half. I will be turning mine in at the end of the lease. I will miss the driving, but not the lack of reliablity. Every time I get in it now I wonder if the SES light is going to stay on. 

Most of the repairs have been related to the SCR system, however, this year I had a steering angle sensor fail and then a couple of weeks later, an injector failure. 

This car has been in the shop for non-scheduled repairs more than all of the other four cars I have, combined. I am so glad this car is under warranty, If I had to pay for all these repairs, it would be gone. I love the way it drives, but at this point, I am scared to take it out of town.


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## KF (Jan 4, 2012)

*335d Life*

Hi all

All low emishion diesels have the Diesel Particulate Filter problem. It will wear out just like a set of brake pads, but unlike brake pads that will cost a couple of hundred dollars to replace the DPF will cost several thousand to replace. Effectively eliminating any fuel cost savings you may have had during the life of the car up to that stage.

KF 
X3 30d


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

KF said:


> Hi all
> 
> All low emishion diesels have the Diesel Particulate Filter problem. It will wear out just like a set of brake pads, but unlike brake pads that will cost a couple of hundred dollars to replace the DPF will cost several thousand to replace. Effectively eliminating any fuel cost savings you may have had during the life of the car up to that stage.
> 
> ...


Gee, that depends on how you look at it. A 335i might get 18 mpg overall vs 26 mpg for the 335d. With diesel costing 10% more than premium, over 200,000 miles, the savings would be as follows:

Cost of fuel for 335i with 18 mpg and premium at $3.75/gal in 200,000 miles: $41,667
Cost of diesel for 335d with 26 mpg and diesel at $4.00/gal in 200,000 miles: $30,769

The fuel savings is substantial. At the end of 200,000 miles, there may be a premium in the diesel's resale value as much as $5000. This was my experience with the 2005 E320 CDI that I sold to my mechanic at 203,000 miles. I might have been ahead of a less powerful, less responsive gasoline version to the tune of $15,000 in expenses, not to mention what an equally powerful V8 engine would have cost in comparison instead.

Gasoline engines have their own issues during 200,000 miles, the fuel pump, top end, and fuel injectors themselves as problem areas. It seems that a DPF problem would not occur with every 335d out there either.

Do the Math. I don't believe a 335i gets much North of 20 mpg average, but your numbers may differ according to the driving you do. Many 335d owners average over 32 mpg.

PL


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

My experience with selling and buying 200k miled cars is most are all around the same cost if they looking at like conditioned cars at least.


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## KF (Jan 4, 2012)

*DPF Cost*

Hi everyone,

Have you checked the cost of a BMW DPF? You may also need two replacements in your 200,000 miles too!

Many are have to replace long before 100,000miles, typicle life being 120 thousand to 150 thousand kilometers.

Yes I understand that US diesels have addBlue which may extend the DPF life but the Australian cars do not and BMW Australia will not stand behind any DPF problems from new.

KF


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I thought the life expectancy of a DPF was around 120-150k miles. I do believe places exist that can rebuild the old ones. I personally would just bypass it if I keep my car that long and it becomes an issue. I am figuring a straight pipe and a ECU flash will cost me about the same amount of money. I'd probably have the cat bypassed at the same time. In my mind once a car has that many miles it is all about making it last for the least amount of money.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> My experience with selling and buying 200k miled cars is most are all around the same cost if they looking at like conditioned cars at least.


It may be also related to where you are dealing.

NADA guides for similar models of same condition figures show 2-3K difference w/ diesel coming out better:

All w/ 200,000 miles: trade in: rough/average/clean; clean retail
2005 E320 CDI w/HK stereo: $5,460/$7,910/$9,985; $13,385
2005 E320 w/HK stereo: $3,785/$6,060/$7,960; $11,135
2005 VW Passat GLS TDI turbo: $3,425/$4,725/$5,775; $8,675
2005 VW Passat GLS turbo: $1,570/$2,670/$3,570; $6,095

The cost of diesel when new for Mercedes was only about $1000 but the extra power was much more like the V8 version which was about 6-8K more and sells for prices closer to the above used.

I did a bit better than average and local/state auction prices were higher for the CDI at the time. My mechanic knew the car and how well it was taken care of too.

It all depends on how much maintenance and repair go into the new diesel engine designs compared to equally complex gasoline direct injection engines over 200,000 miles. The DPF is an extra that is from too much government intrusion but has a silver lining.

Anyone familiar with the research on particulate matter can tell you they ignore the very small particulates that gasoline vehicles spew and that really do get into the lungs - likely worse than any diesel, but we might never find out because the research isn't being done. The research that is being done does not discount the large particulates that fall to the ground and are not inhaled because they take everything directly from the exhaust. But at least we can say our cars are extra clean, enough for the inside of the exhaust tips to be free of the black soot found on the cleanest hybrid gasoline cars.

I don't necessarily mind spending the extra money on the DPF which still can be recovered at resale and over time with fuel savings.

PL


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

There are of course exceptions to what I have experienced but those tend to be those rarely desirable cars. Heck people still pay stupid amounts of money for falling apart old Mercedes 240D models yet damn near anything else from that ere fetches about what it is worth in scrap metal. As I understand it people fight over getting CDI Mercedes and a lot of the TDI year ranges fetch huge premiums, both because of those models reputations.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Snipe656 said:


> There are of course exceptions to what I have experienced but those tend to be those rarely desirable cars. Heck people still pay stupid amounts of money for falling apart old Mercedes 240D models yet damn near anything else from that ere fetches about what it is worth in scrap metal. As I understand it people fight over getting CDI Mercedes and a lot of the TDI year ranges fetch huge premiums, both because of those models reputations.


Yes, and your point is? Its the diesel engine that makes them so!

Actually the models I mentioned do not have good reputations for the 2005 year. The first CDI that came over had problems with the EGR and suspension while the Passats had some problems with transmissions. Both are a bit rare but available on the open market and auctions I believe.

PL


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

There are pundits, like those in the WSJ, that are cautious about the long term reliability of modern diesels. They worry about the high pressure fuel injection systems as well as the expensive add-on pollution control equipment too. I don't believe the naysayers about fuel quality after reading most of the technical publications, including Bosch and NSTM. 

My approach is to avoid putting in any additives which are more likely to upset the chemistry of fuel supplier additives and just stick with the best branded fuel such as Chevron for its reputation and additive. This and driving the thing in the way it was meant to be driven may be the best solution for the DPF, we shall see.

The 335d hasn't been around long enough in the North American market to see how it does. European driving is different as well as the approach to maintenance, so we shall see. Witness how Fiat has done over the years in Europe vs NA.

PL


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

My point being I have looked at 240D cars for sale for $1-2k and they were utter pieces of crap, shot bodies, rust, shot interiors, most "accessories" not working and so on. They were not worth more than about $500 due to the condition of everything outside those diesel engines. Its that specific diesel engine that makes them so, not just because it is a diesel engine. My 2003 truck with its diesel engine is not worth much more than my 1985 300SD with it's diesel engine, car has 205k and truck 218k or so. I have owned two other 1985 Mercedes, a 380SE and 500SEL, both were worth about what my 300SD was when I got it. 

I also do not trust NADA one bit. I looked at a 2011 C63 here recently and it's NADA price was $2k less than it's MSRP(including gas guzzler tax and destination charges) was when it sold new 2 years ago. Yet you can find TON of 2011 C63 cars selling for easily $10k less than their MSRP was, I even found new ones still on the lot for $15k-18k less than MSRP.


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## cssnms (Jan 24, 2011)

If you kept tabs on the forum then you would know there is already another thread on this very subject both here and on e90 post under the UK section. After reading those threads I don't see how you could state you have not noticed any engineering defect trends???? How about the following.... Clogged metering valves, head replacement, a/c compressor belt squeal, injector replacement etc....


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

Most of the 355d on Ebay seem to be high mileage.

that being said, I brought this up with my local SA and he was telling me about a customer with a 335d with over 180k miles on it. Apparently the guy drives it up and down the coast. I feel for the guy. Hopefully, he has the sports seats


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

KF said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Have you checked the cost of a BMW DPF? You may also need two replacements in your 200,000 miles too!
> 
> ...


How long have you guys been burning ULSD?


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

I am cautiously optimistic about the long-term reliability of my 335d. There are known issues which seem to have been addressed either in production or in recall. My July 2011 build did not even require the recall.

After a year and about 12k miles my car has only had oil-change and one replaced tire (screw in the sidewall).
The thing I am most concerned about are rising requirements of biodiesel content beyond which some engine components were designed for. 

I have 3 years left on the warranty. By then there will be much more "data" about the long-term reliability of these cars. As I get closer to expiration I will crunch some numbers and see if it makes sense to keep the car and whether to get an extended warranty.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

There's a lot of options out there for cleaning the DPF instead of replacing which substantially lowers cost. For example:

http://www.dieselfiltercleaning.com/landing-page.php

Although, there are also options (in Europe as of right now) for eliminating the DPF all together . . .


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## twgdotcom (Jul 23, 2014)

60K miles and nothing crazy. Oil changes and a warped brake rotor. One sensor went bad but BMW paid for the replacement as it was very early for it to fail. I plan on putting at least 200K on the car if possible.


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## diesel fan123 (Nov 25, 2011)

68k miles
My experience has been like AZ335D reported, the SES comes on every few weeks, neither the dealer or BMW can fix it. 80% of the time it is :

"P02D2	BMW	Cylinder 4 Fuel Injector Offset Learning At Min Limit"

The rest of the time the code is the same, except it is injector #2, or 3.

But the car runs great, functions perfectly, so I made a deal w/ the service rep - I don't bring it in any more, just drive it with the SES permanently on.

I check w/ a scanner every month or so to see if any new codes have appeared, none yet. 

I won't keep the 335d, when it nears end of CPO, I'll sell/trade it on something else for the wife to drive (it's her turn for a new vehicle). 
Never had a BMW before the 335d, never will again. Neither will any of my family or co-workers, after witnessing this debacle.

I have restored a 1985 300TD and partially restored a 1985 300SD, I will drive those for 20 more years after the BMW is gone. 

Frank


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

The thing that kills me is that from time to time you'll read a post on this forum claiming that we who have had major 335d problems are just whiners who neither represent a majority nor, by implication, even a minority. I guess we are just bad eggs intent upon bringing everyone down in happy, trouble-free BMW-land.

Yet what these posters forget is that most of us joined the forum long BEFORE we began having problems, not AFTERWARDS. I read post the other day saying "CBU - just get over it already" or some such tosh - like it isn't a problem. I have been here a very long time, since 2010 when I bought my first 335d. I was smitten with it like I haven't ever been with a car. I began having troubles right around 20k miles and pretty much had something go bad about every 5k after that to 65k. I had my 2011 from 17k to 26k and threw four unresolved SES lights in a row before I said f**k it - donesville. Fool me once - your fault. Fool me twice - my fault.

Unfortunately it seems rather obvious - more obvious so some than others - that this car was equipped with a poorly designed propulsion system prone to failure at multiple nodes. Emissions? Bad. Injectors? Lots. (I had two replaced myself at one point). CBU? Commonplace. You know how many SES lights any of my wife's three Priuses have thrown combined since she bought her first one back in 2003? Zero SES lights, that's how many. Drivability aside, it was and remains far more well-engineered than the 335d. Some owners may not have had troubles and some of those will and others won't. But given the tight manufacturing tolerances and the fact that it isn't rings, valves, clutches, or other wear components that are failing, doesn't it make you wonder if you do own one when your turn will come? Either the 335d was poorly designed OR it was shoddily manufactured (or perhaps both) if there is such a wide experience of THE SAME commonplace problems.

I like your solution - ignore it for now with a plan to ditch it later - but that would've driven me nuts - a constant reminder of BMW's hubris. There is ample evidence that the legend of the superiority of German engineering is really just a myth, much like the alleged superiority of our armies leading us to engage in wars we don't win.


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## DaveN007 (Oct 4, 2013)

I am tempted to see what BMW would offer me to trade in my car.

Kelley has my car at exactly the same range as a 335i.

Anyone consider trading in for an equivalent 335i?


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

DaveN007 said:


> I am tempted to see what BMW would offer me to trade in my car.
> 
> Kelley has my car at exactly the same range as a 335i.
> 
> Anyone consider trading in for an equivalent 335i?


No way no how. Considering that BMW no longer imports one single new naturally aspirated vehicle to the US means I've written BMW off entirely after this car.


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## henrycyao (Oct 23, 2012)

tonyspumoni said:


> I like your solution - ignore it for now with a plan to ditch it later - but that would've driven me nuts - a constant reminder of BMW's hubris. There is ample evidence that the legend of the superiority of German engineering is really just a myth, much like the alleged superiority of our armies leading us to engage in wars we don't win.


I agree the Germany do not have hold on engineering. It is all about optimization and trade offs. Sometimes one company does it better than the other. The other time it does not. What is important is to learn from your mistake and gradually improve the product these company offers to consumers.

Lets see if 328d experiences the same issue as 335d. If it does, I think BMW has really lost their edge. Perhaps the crown belong to some one else.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

My experience has been that except for the 3 series, which BMW did better than everyone else, Mercedes has always had better quality and durability. The C-class was an embarrassment in the 1990's and into the 2000's, breaking down as much as any other mediocre manufacturer.

JD Power reliability surveys almost never have BMW in the top 50%, and Consumer Reports rarely has BMW in the reliable category.

But technology and suppliers have improved, with significant strides every year except for 2013 when average reliability did not go up the usual 3-5% as I recall for all cars.

My opinion (or $.02) is that BMW takes more technological risks than other manufacturers s.a. Toyota and Mercedes, so the number of problems is higher. Partly because the number of features s.a. electronic gizmo's is greater. In 2005, Mercedes decreased by about half the number of tasks its electronic brain has to do on the car, and simplified the brakes for its problematic E-class (W211).

PL


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## bhs 61 (Aug 9, 2013)

After reading all of these posts, the 2009 335d with 82000 miles on it has got to go before Aug. 2016 when the warranty is up. I have had a 1978 320, 1995 M3, 1999 323, 2002 525, and 2009 335d but can't think the next will be a BMW. Drove a FJ60 Toyota for 18 years and didn't have as much downtime as I did with this 335d in it's first year!


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## carotene (May 27, 2014)

I'm taking the d in this week for my third injector failure in 6 months. 2010 60k miles CPO. I've also had scr issues and brake pad sensor go bad. Running the numbers to figure out the optimal point to sell.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Pierre Louis said:


> My experience has been that except for the 3 series, which BMW did better than everyone else, Mercedes has always had better quality and durability. The C-class was an embarrassment in the 1990's and into the 2000's, breaking down as much as any other mediocre manufacturer.
> 
> JD Power reliability surveys almost never have BMW in the top 50%, and Consumer Reports rarely has BMW in the reliable category.
> 
> ...


I think I agree with the Benz comparison. My wife has driven a Mercedes for over 14 years and has never had the same kind of issues that I had with my BMW's. However that said, my vehicle has always been more fuel efficient, had better brakes, better handling.

Funny thing is that until I developed a nagging emissions issue at 55k miles my 335d has been rock solid. 3 SCR tanks, NOX sensors, a SCR catalyst, and a control module within last 10 months.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

henrycyao said:


> I agree the Germany do not have hold on engineering. I think BMW has really lost their edge. Perhaps the crown belong to some one else.


Not sure if anyone in particular has taken the crown. I think it's more like the crown has been cut up and shared among multiple brands. I've stated before BMW has made changes to make themselves more mainstream instead of enthusiast oriented. They have something like 80 different models now? But this change does result in higher sales, but for different reasons than before. Unfortunately unless you have a very fat wallet, the enthusiasts are staring to be left behind.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

KeithS said:


> ...Unfortunately unless you have a very fat wallet, the enthusiasts are staring to be left behind.


Actually, they recognize that and have added the 228i with track package and M235i (which comes only in a msport/sport? trim). Gotta want a coupe, however.:thumbdwn:


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

floydarogers said:


> Actually, they recognize that and have added the 228i with track package and M235i (which comes only in a msport/sport? trim). Gotta want a coupe, however.:thumbdwn:


I really wanted to like the 2 series, but the 1990's ended a long time ago and the competition has changed for E36 sized cars.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

KF said:


> Hi all
> 
> All low emishion diesels have the Diesel Particulate Filter problem. It will wear out just like a set of brake pads, but unlike brake pads that will cost a couple of hundred dollars to replace the DPF will cost several thousand to replace. Effectively eliminating any fuel cost savings you may have had during the life of the car up to that stage.


Could it be that the DPF issue is dependent on how you drive the car? For example...about 95% of the miles I've driven in recent years are on the Interstate at 70mph rather than 5 mile commutes to work (I take the train) and two mile trips to the supermarket (I usually walk).It's on long trips at highway speed that the DPF is able to purge itself as it's required to regularly do lest it become clogged.


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## ChasR (Aug 29, 2012)

DaveN007 said:


> I am tempted to see what BMW would offer me to trade in my car.
> 
> Kelley has my car at exactly the same range as a 335i.
> 
> Anyone consider trading in for an equivalent 335i?


After paying for CBU cleanup and subsequent replacement of injector 4, I found the car still runs regens twice or three times per tank, 2 to 3x as often as it used to. I decided to trade it in. 2011 335d at 92K miles, the dealer offered me $15.5K in trade on a 2013 335i Sportline. I didn't make the deal, since I had just invested $4100 in repairs. My advice would be to get out of the car around 60K miles.


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

ChasR said:


> After paying for CBU cleanup and subsequent replacement of injector 4, I found the car still runs regens twice or three times per tank, 2 to 3x as often as it used to. I decided to trade it in. 2011 335d at 92K miles, the dealer offered me $15.5K in trade on a 2013 335i Sportline. I didn't make the deal, since I had just invested $4100 in repairs. My advice would be to get out of the car around 60K miles.


How did you drive your car? Everytime I get stuck in city driving the DPF regens much more frequently. When I'm doing my usual freeway routes I almost never notice the DPF regen. I drive almost 90% highway at an average of 75-85 mph so I'm hoping that I can avoid these issues or all of us are just going to have to pay the piper?


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## ChasR (Aug 29, 2012)

My commute is mostly highway. 2 miles of surface streets to get on the freeway, 17 miles at 70+ then another 2 miles on surface streets. I've tracked the average speed on each tank of gas since I got the car. THe average of those averages is almost 54 mph. I get some WOT almost every day. As a reference, on the two loaners I got while my car was being repaired, the average speed shown on the trip computer was in the 20s.

I think almost everybody is going to have injector problems and CBU at least once, and probably more, in the life of the car. At least I got to brag about not having any problems for 90K miles


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

CBU for sure but I think the injector issues are questionable. They seem to always tie in with a bad DDE as some people have had countless injectors changed until the dealer finally corrects the "real" problem by replacing the DDE.


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## ChasR (Aug 29, 2012)

You may well be right. I happen to have both. The dealership said they had a very hard time selling 335ds, at least in part due to known reliability issues, which is why the trade in was so low. Car Max offered $15K.


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

ChasR said:


> My commute is mostly highway. 2 miles of surface streets to get on the freeway, 17 miles at 70+ then another 2 miles on surface streets. I've tracked the average speed on each tank of gas since I got the car. THe average of those averages is almost 54 mph. I get some WOT almost every day. As a reference, on the two loaners I got while my car was being repaired, the average speed shown on the trip computer was in the 20s.
> 
> I think almost everybody is going to have injector problems and CBU at least once, and probably more, in the life of the car. At least I got to brag about not having any problems for 90K miles


Since you've driven your car much harder than mine (my avg MPH is only 45), I basically have about 15K or so miles left on my car before I'm going to dump her at Carmax when she gets to 60K miles. No way I'm going to be spending 50% of a value on a car just to keep it running. This will be my last BMW also...


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## tonyspumoni (May 23, 2010)

When I sold my 2011 335d Msport with 23k miles CarMax offered me $22k and my local dealer $26k, both without trades. To be clear the car had had a serious fender bender, to which I alerted both dealers. I still see 335d's here from time to time but not so many.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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