# Why does BMW wire the parking lights to stay on when the ignition is off



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

My family used to have Volovs and Saabs that would shut off all their lights (parking and headlights) when the headlight switch was left in the headlight position and the ignition was off. BMW likes to wire their cas such that the parking lights stay on in this scenario? If you really wanted the parking lights you could just select the parking lights position. I'm sure there's some reason for it (if it was just about being cheap they would just leave the headlights on too), but I don't get it.

IS there a simple way to rewire or reporgram the Light module so that this doesn't happen?


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## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I think this is a German tradition, since it's also true for MBZ as well. If your car is parked on a dark road, it allows you to leave the parking lights on for greater visibility while the car is unattended. You'll also notice that if you activate the turn signals when the car is shut off, one side of the car illuminates continuously.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

Every car I've ever driven has done one of two things when you leave the switch in the headlight position and turned off the car:

1) leave ALL the lights on, including the headlights (usually older or American cars.)

2) leave the parking lights on.

The only suggestion I have for you is to use the auto headlights, if you have them.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

OBS3SSION said:


> Every car I've ever driven has done one of two things when you leave the switch in the headlight position and turned off the car:
> 
> 1) leave ALL the lights on, including the headlights (usually older or American cars.)
> 
> ...


GUess i was spoiled with Volvos and Saabs. Going back to the mid-80s, they wire them so that all lights shut off if left in the headlight position. Seems like such a simple, obvious thing to do that I wonder why more carmakers don't do this. :dunno:  If you really wanted to leave the parking lights on, you can always choose the "parking lights" position-- that's what its there for. I don't have auto headlights--was just sort of curious as to why this is the case.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Robert A said:


> I think this is a German tradition, since it's also true for MBZ as well. If your car is parked on a dark road, it allows you to leave the parking lights on for greater visibility while the car is unattended. You'll also notice that if you activate the turn signals when the car is shut off, one side of the car illuminates continuously.


Yes, I know about the turn signal trick and can see how that's nice. If you wanted to leave all the parking lights on, you could always select that position on the headlight switch (that's why its there for). Why even have that switch position if it does the same thing as the headlight position w/ the ignition off? Actually, I think VW does just that-- they have only 2 headlight positions.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

It's better than a lot of cars that leave the headlights on. I still see that a lot on rainy days.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Kaz said:


> It's better than a lot of cars that leave the headlights on. I still see that a lot on rainy days.


Agree its better than that. But, for the extra $.20 (if that) it would cost BMW to go all the way why not just go for it? Its a really small thing, but it seems so incredibly stupid. I got into this discussion cause I was visiting my parents last weekend. My dad has a 740, and we were drinvg around in it. He said to me "I like everyting about this car, but why dont' all the lights shut off w/ the ignition. Even my old Saab did that". I opened my mouth to try and explain, but there was no explanation-- it was just stupid.

It probably is some sort of strange German wiring tradition that no one can really explain anymore.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

robg said:


> Agree its better than that. But, for the extra $.20 (if that) it would cost BMW to go all the way why not just go for it? Its a really small thing, but it seems so incredibly stupid. I got into this discussion cause I was visiting my parents last weekend. My dad has a 740, and we were drinvg around in it. He said to me "I like everyting about this car, but why dont' all the lights shut off w/ the ignition. Even my old Saab did that". I opened my mouth to try and explain, but there was no explanation-- it was just stupid.
> 
> It probably is some sort of strange German wiring tradition that no one can really explain anymore.


My last American-built Japanese car did the same thing. Why is this 'German?'


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Kaz said:


> My last American-built Japanese car did the same thing. Why is this 'German?'


I stand corrected. Its just some sort of strange automotive wiriing tradition that makes no sense. Are Volvo and Saab the only manufacturers in the world who know how to properly wire headlights and parking lights?


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## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

I never bothered to have the auto lights, most of them turn on too late, and while it would be nice to have the parking lights shut off with the ignition, I never really forget to turn them off. I do wish they made the cigarette lighter power shut off with the ignition though. Subies have the separate button for the parking lights on top of the steering wheel column, and people who do turn them on forget to turn them off all the time.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

KP said:


> I never bothered to have the auto lights, most of them turn on too late, and while it would be nice to have the parking lights shut off with the ignition, I never really forget to turn them off. I do wish they made the cigarette lighter power shut off with the ignition though. Subies have the separate button for the parking lights on top of the steering wheel column, and people who do turn them on forget to turn them off all the time.


I don't want auto lights either and I've never forgotten to turn the lights off. Its jsut one one the design quirks that makes me wonder "Why?". BTW, IIRC my parents old Volvos and Saabs did kill the power to the cig lighter too (but I could be wrong).

had read that newer BMWs kill the power after 15 minutes-- but that's not the case for the parking lights.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

One explanation I just thought of..
IN europe, I think the parking lights are not even allowed to remain lit when the car is on--they're only for signalling. So, in other countries it might be that the parking lights are never on w/ the headlights, and this is never an issue. Since the US requires that they be lit w/ the headlights BMW makes a simple modificatoin but doesn't bother to add the necessary wiring or relays to shut the parking lights off in this scneario since it would be just for the US market. I never paid attention to this in Europe and I rented a bunch of BMWs-- darn. Sweden's regs might be closer to what the US requires and that's why VOlvo and Saab do it the right way.


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## Cowboy Bebop (May 17, 2003)

in Europe due to the Narrow and dark streets, it is common to use the running/parking lights as a way to prevent people from smashing the side of your car in the dark.

When I lived there EVERY car I drove was set up this way.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Cowboy Bebop said:


> in Europe due to the Narrow and dark streets, it is common to use the running/parking lights as a way to prevent people from smashing the side of your car in the dark.
> 
> When I lived there EVERY car I drove was set up this way.


yes, but if you want to use the parking lights, you can just choose the middle position.


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## 16hr Day (Apr 17, 2004)

yeah, but then you are driving a saab or volvo. I will deal with the lights! :thumbup:


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## Cars (Jul 19, 2004)

that's why i love auto light!!!!! life is sooooooooooo much eaier and fun when you have that, especially in a Lexus, I found Lexus auto light is one of the best design among the car makers!!! love Benz, too. But BMW, really have some problem!!!!! (not very luxury, if you know wat i mean)


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Cars said:


> that's why i love auto light!!!!! life is sooooooooooo much eaier and fun when you have that, especially in a Lexus, I found Lexus auto light is one of the best design among the car makers!!! love Benz, too. But BMW, really have some problem!!!!! (not very luxury, if you know wat i mean)


I don't need the sophistication of full auto headlights. Just a simple wiring scheme that allows the parking lights to stay off w/ the ignition off regarldess of headlight swithc position. This a wiring challenge that could've been accomplished in the 50s.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

robg said:


> I don't need the sophistication of full auto headlights. Just a simple wiring scheme that allows the parking lights to stay off w/ the ignition off regarldess of headlight swithc position. This a wiring challenge that could've been accomplished in the 50s.


But in a modern BMW it's not a wiring challenge; it's a programming the LCM challenge.


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## Karl (Dec 23, 2001)

You know, I don't think it's the parking lights that are being left on, I think it's the headlights that are being turned off! From personal experience, the Honda Accord (1991 and 1998), Ford Expedition and Mercedes C55 AMG allow you to turn on the parking lights and headlights with the key in any state, including being out of the ignition. On the other hand, my 330xi and the Porsche Boxster don't allow the headlights to be on unless the key is in the 'on' position (engine started, or not). I have a hunch that it's to protect against accidental battery drain. The fact that the parking lights are the only lights that remain on if the headlights alone are switched off are leading you to the conclusion that it's keeping the parking lights 'on', when in fact it could be keeping the headlights 'off'. It's entirely legal to have your parking lights on when your car is parked, that's what they're for. And when's the last time you heard about someone draining their battery by leaving the parking lights (without the headlights) on?

If you think about it from a programming perspective, you're adding complexity to the system - currently the parking lights only have to respond to one state, and that is the state of the light switch - 'on' or 'off' (let's forget about the turn signal stalk for a second). To get the parking lights to do what you describe, it would have to listen for a "headlights on" state coupled with an "ignition off" state to shut them off. It's added complexity for the sake of routine of people coming from different marques, and I'm not sure if BMW would want to compromise like that.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Kaz said:


> It's better than a lot of cars that leave the headlights on.


Miata will do headlights on with key out. I find that functionality useful, especially in my no-street-light area. It's effectively area lighting for the back yard.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Karl said:


> You know, I don't think it's the parking lights that are being left on, I think it's the headlights that are being turned off! From personal experience, the Honda Accord (1991 and 1998), Ford Expedition and Mercedes C55 AMG allow you to turn on the parking lights and headlights with the key in any state, including being out of the ignition. On the other hand, my 330xi and the Porsche Boxster don't allow the headlights to be on unless the key is in the 'on' position (engine started, or not). I have a hunch that it's to protect against accidental battery drain. The fact that the parking lights are the only lights that remain on if the headlights alone are switched off are leading you to the conclusion that it's keeping the parking lights 'on', when in fact it could be keeping the headlights 'off'. It's entirely legal to have your parking lights on when your car is parked, that's what they're for. And when's the last time you heard about someone draining their battery by leaving the parking lights (without the headlights) on?
> 
> If you think about it from a programming perspective, you're adding complexity to the system - currently the parking lights only have to respond to one state, and that is the state of the light switch - 'on' or 'off' (let's forget about the turn signal stalk for a second). To get the parking lights to do what you describe, it would have to listen for a "headlights on" state coupled with an "ignition off" state to shut them off. It's added complexity for the sake of routine of people coming from different marques, and I'm not sure if BMW would want to compromise like that.


Agree-- it is the headlights that are being turned off, and it is slighlty simpler to "wire" or "program (as the case may be)" a car like this. But, I really odn't think we're talking about much added complexity. And, its not just for the sake of "routine of people coming from different marques". Its just a feature that is pretty easy to implmenet, with low complexity, and just makes a lot of common sense. I don't see how it would be a "compromise"?

As Kaz points out, recent BMW use a light control module. Mofifying the software to do this would be even simpler for BMW than having to add extra wiring as they might've had to in the past. Even when it did inovle added some extra wires or a relay, we're talking about little added cost or complexity. Liek I said, Volvo and Saab were able to do this on their even on their most basic cars in the mid 80s (possibly before then). FWIW, i did some google seearches and there are quite a lot of people with various makes of cars that wish the headlights and parking lights shut off w/ the igition. Many of htem have run down their batteries from the parking lights alone. Some BMW owners were wondering about this in the early 90s.

I have a hunch that if I could re-program theLCM to think it was in "european" mode, it would sort of work the qay I think it should-- since my hunch is that parking lights are never on w/ the headlights in Europe. But, this would be sort of illegal in the US.


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## 16hr Day (Apr 17, 2004)

Cars said:


> that's why i love auto light!!!!! life is sooooooooooo much eaier and fun when you have that, especially in a Lexus, I found Lexus auto light is one of the best design among the car makers!!! love Benz, too. But BMW, really have some problem!!!!! (not very luxury, if you know wat i mean)


he is talking about an older BMW. The newer cars have very simple automatic headlamps. Leave it to Lexus...cough..toyota...cough.. to dream up some complex "auto light" system that might be hard to hear over the rattles and clunks of a 60K toyota...I mean Lexus..


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

16hr Day said:


> he is talking about an older BMW. The newer cars have very simple automatic headlamps. Leave it to Lexus...cough..toyota...cough.. to dream up some complex "auto light" system that might be hard to hear over the rattles and clunks of a 60K toyota...I mean Lexus..


Exactly. I'm not talking about creating some over-engineered "auto headlamp" system (which Iknow they've already done)-- just some simple wiring or maybe LCM programming changes. That's all.


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## Karl (Dec 23, 2001)

robg said:


> Agree-- it is the headlights that are being turned off, and it is slighlty simpler to "wire" or "program (as the case may be)" a car like this. But, I really odn't think we're talking about much added complexity. And, its not just for the sake of "routine of people coming from different marques". Its just a feature that is pretty easy to implmenet, with low complexity, and just makes a lot of common sense. I don't see how it would be a "compromise"?
> 
> As Kaz points out, recent BMW use a light control module. Mofifying the software to do this would be even simpler for BMW than having to add extra wiring as they might've had to in the past. Even when it did inovle added some extra wires or a relay, we're talking about little added cost or complexity. Liek I said, Volvo and Saab were able to do this on their even on their most basic cars in the mid 80s (possibly before then). FWIW, i did some google seearches and there are quite a lot of people with various makes of cars that wish the headlights and parking lights shut off w/ the igition. Many of htem have run down their batteries from the parking lights alone. Some BMW owners were wondering about this in the early 90s.
> 
> I have a hunch that if I could re-program theLCM to think it was in "european" mode, it would sort of work the qay I think it should-- since my hunch is that parking lights are never on w/ the headlights in Europe. But, this would be sort of illegal in the US.


 You're right about the parking lights in Europe, they do not use the amber signals in front for forward lights and instead have smaller bulbs called "city lights" mounted in the high beam housings to act as a front-facing beacon.

From a business perspective, I could see this as being problematic when lazy car drivers start leaving their headlights on all the time (because they think they're "auto" or something). Bulbs would burn out quicker, they'd waste fuel because the alternator would need to run to operate the lights, etc. Then you can choose, as a manufacturer, whether to go that route or the full-auto headlight route, and, though BMW was late to the game, they've made their choice. While it is a simple feature to implement, I just don't see the necessity of it (nor do I see the need for auto headlights). It never was too much to ask people to turn on and turn off their headlights at the appropriate times (including when shutting the car off). It becomes routine just like closing any open windows, putting up any applicable sunshades, turning off the windshield wipers and locking your doors.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Auto headlights, auto wipers, power windows, power steering, power and auto everything -- these things are great, they're immense helps and I love them.

What's wrong with making things easier? That's what technology is good for, right?

At the same time, what's wrong with headlights and parking lights that stay on if they're turned on, even if the ignition is off? The car makes a dinging noise as soon as you open your door, doesn't it? If you're deaf, it'd be one thing, but if you're not...


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Karl said:


> You're right about the parking lights in Europe, they do not use the amber signals in front for forward lights and instead have smaller bulbs called "city lights" mounted in the high beam housings to act as a front-facing beacon.
> 
> From a business perspective, I could see this as being problematic when lazy car drivers start leaving their headlights on all the time (because they think they're "auto" or something). Bulbs would burn out quicker, they'd waste fuel because the alternator would need to run to operate the lights, etc. Then you can choose, as a manufacturer, whether to go that route or the full-auto headlight route, and, though BMW was late to the game, they've made their choice. While it is a simple feature to implement, I just don't see the necessity of it (nor do I see the need for auto headlights). It never was too much to ask people to turn on and turn off their headlights at the appropriate times (including when shutting the car off). It becomes routine just like closing any open windows, putting up any applicable sunshades, turning off the windshield wipers and locking your doors.


What about DRLs? Its been shown that they do improve visibility and safety so having people drive around w/ their headlights on all the time owuldn't be the worst thing. The amount of extra fuel and extra bulb cost is so neglible and is far outweighed by the cost and damage to electronics of jump starting a car w/ a dead battery. And, if you really care about it, you can always just shut the headlights off. IMO, this feature is worth it even if it just saves you once or twice from a dead battery. If you were to apply your reasoning to other areas of a modern car, there would never be any progress "Why power locks", "Why power steering", etc. OR, why do we need ignition keys--why not make people out and crank-start their car--they're just being lazy by wanting to sit in th ecar and start it? Granted, some people do feel that way about those features. But, this is a feature that could actaully prevent a dead battery if you're careless a few times, promote better visibiltiy and safety, costs very little, weighs next to nothing (probably nothing with computer controlled lighting systems0, doesn't add to the complexity of using the car, and just makes so much sesne. Thansk for confirming that European-spec cars don't light their parking lights when the car is on. I think this is the real reason for why the parking lights aren't also killed w/ the ignitoin-- BMW probaby doesn't even think about it because in Europe its not a factor. If you shut off the car, all the lights will go off because the parking lights were neer on to begin with. I'm betting that in Sweden they do run w/ the parking lights and headlights on which explains the feature on Volvos and Saabs.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

swchang said:


> Auto headlights, auto wipers, power windows, power steering, power and auto everything -- these things are great, they're immense helps and I love them.
> 
> What's wrong with making things easier? That's what technology is good for, right?
> 
> At the same time, what's wrong with headlights and parking lights that stay on if they're turned on, even if the ignition is off? The car makes a dinging noise as soon as you open your door, doesn't it? If you're deaf, it'd be one thing, but if you're not...


If it can make a dinging noise, it can't be that much harder to make the parking lights go off too. What's wrong is that it only takes being forgetful (even w/ the dinging) to drain the battery. Why have a spare tire? What's wrong with never getting a flat? Actually, carmakers are subsscribing to that philosophy recently.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

robg said:


> If it can make a dinging noise, it can't be that much harder to make the parking lights go off too. What's wrong is that it only takes being forgetful (even w/ the dinging) to drain the battery. Why have a spare tire? What's wrong with never getting a flat? Actually, carmakers are subsscribing to that philosophy recently.


I understand what you're saying, but I'd still rather have the option of having my lights on. Actually, no, I see what you're saying and now I agree with you. I was thinking that I want to be able to keep my lights on if I'm sitting in the car, but if that were the case, I would have my keys with me. Well, maybe it's nice for parking after all, then.

Maybe the best solution would be to have the parking lights turn off after like 15 min if your key is out of the ignition?

I prefer a temporary spare. Still something to keep me going if I get one flat, but not as heavy as the alternative full spare. I wouldn't mind giving run-flats a shot, either, and I might come this winter.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

swchang said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I'd still rather have the option of having my lights on. Actually, no, I see what you're saying and now I agree with you. I was thinking that I want to be able to keep my lights on if I'm sitting in the car, but if that were the case, I would have my keys with me. Well, maybe it's nice for parking after all, then.
> 
> Maybe the best solution would be to have the parking lights turn off after like 15 min if your key is out of the ignition?
> 
> I prefer a temporary spare. Still something to keep me going if I get one flat, but not as heavy as the alternative full spare. I wouldn't mind giving run-flats a shot, either, and I might come this winter.


Well, if you really need the parking lights on you'd just leave the switch in positoin II. That's how it worked in the Volvos and Saabs:
with the key in and ignion in postion I or greater:
-With switch in headlight position: headlights and parking lights on
-with siwthc in parking lights position: just parking lights

With key out:
-swich in headlight position: no lights (BMWs and other cars leave the parking lights on in this position for no good reason).
-switch in parking light position: parking lights

BEst of all worlds. This just seems so logical as to be irrefutable.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

robg said:


> Well, if you really need the parking lights on you'd just leave the switch in positoin II. That's how it worked in the Volvos and Saabs:
> with the key in and ignion in postion I or greater:
> -With switch in headlight position: headlights and parking lights on
> -with siwthc in parking lights position: just parking lights
> ...


Okay, guess I misunderstood you. This does seem irrefutably logical.


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## Karl (Dec 23, 2001)

robg said:


> What about DRLs? Its been shown that they do improve visibility and safety so having people drive around w/ their headlights on all the time owuldn't be the worst thing. The amount of extra fuel and extra bulb cost is so neglible and is far outweighed by the cost and damage to electronics of jump starting a car w/ a dead battery. And, if you really care about it, you can always just shut the headlights off. IMO, this feature is worth it even if it just saves you once or twice from a dead battery. If you were to apply your reasoning to other areas of a modern car, there would never be any progress "Why power locks", "Why power steering", etc. OR, why do we need ignition keys--why not make people out and crank-start their car--they're just being lazy by wanting to sit in th ecar and start it? Granted, some people do feel that way about those features. But, this is a feature that could actaully prevent a dead battery if you're careless a few times, promote better visibiltiy and safety, costs very little, weighs next to nothing (probably nothing with computer controlled lighting systems0, doesn't add to the complexity of using the car, and just makes so much sesne. Thansk for confirming that European-spec cars don't light their parking lights when the car is on. I think this is the real reason for why the parking lights aren't also killed w/ the ignitoin-- BMW probaby doesn't even think about it because in Europe its not a factor. If you shut off the car, all the lights will go off because the parking lights were neer on to begin with. I'm betting that in Sweden they do run w/ the parking lights and headlights on which explains the feature on Volvos and Saabs.


 There is still the possibility that the taillights (in low-wattage non-braking mode) still remain on if you shut a European spec car off. I have no way of confirming this, however.

DRLs are DRLs... Saab (9-5) implements them by running the low beams (no parking lights or tail lights), BMW does it by running the high beams at 80% power, GM does it by running the front ambers (can't run the taillights too without running the headlights, otherwise that configuration would be "parking lights" and illegal to drive around in). Saab doesn't officially make them optional though (you have to pull a fuse to get them to turn off), whereas BMW does give you the option of having them enabled or disabled. I've yet to see a manufacturer implement DRLs by just turning on the headlights as normal, tails, ambers and all. Perhaps some Canadian 'festers could shed some light on this?

I guess there's just something about convenience features that makes them slow on the uptake in German companies (except for Mercedes-Benz). While I agree that your suggested feature is a good idea, I could see why it didn't enter the minds of the BMW engineers when designing the LCM programming. Unfortunately, all we can do at this point is just keep complaining... there's no easy solution and there's no one at BMW who will listen.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Karl said:


> There is still the possibility that the taillights (in low-wattage non-braking mode) still remain on if you shut a European spec car off. I have no way of confirming this, however.


Was wondering about that myself. I wish my obsession w/ this feature had taken place when I actually lived in europe.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

KP said:


> I do wish they made the cigarette lighter power shut off with the ignition though.


If it behaves like the flashlight power socket (which I'd guess it does), the cigarette power will cut off when you lock the car or after 15 minutes.

This is nice for when you, oh say, want to power a music device or light a smoke without needing the engine.


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## 16hr Day (Apr 17, 2004)

swchang said:


> I prefer a temporary spare. Still something to keep me going if I get one flat, but not as heavy as the alternative full spare. I wouldn't mind giving run-flats a shot, either, and I might come this winter.


You should try and M3 NO SPARE AT ALL!! :thumbup:


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