# audi is NOT vw



## wagonman (Apr 7, 2005)

i have noted in the past on this forum that a put down on audi is people citing that it is made by vw. couldnt the same statement be made about porsche? i am playing devils advocate here: i say audi is a worthy competitor to bmw and mercedes. is audi better than bmw? of course not! i own a bmw. i think the 5 series is far superior to the audi a6 and the 3 series clearly is too much for the a4, but audi has done a fairly nice job over the years of gaining ground on bmw. i dont think that the vw knock against audi is completely fair. my two cents...


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## SilverX3 (Sep 2, 2005)

Is the latest Audi RS4 better than new M3 ????? That's the real question


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## AEC (Jan 19, 2003)

wagonman said:


> i have noted in the past on this forum that a put down on audi is people citing that it is made by vw. couldnt the same statement be made about porsche?


No. VW doesn't own Porsche.


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## vegastrashed (Nov 3, 2004)

I wouldn't mind owning a Volkswagen, especially if it's a Lamborghini!  :thumbup: 

Lamborghini -> Audi -> VW


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

jiio said:


> I wouldn't mind owning a Volkswagen, especially if it's a Lamborghini!  :thumbup:
> 
> Lamborghini -> Audi -> VW


and Bugatti >= Lamborghini >= Audi >= VW >= Skoda

Where does Bentley fit in there?

-MrB


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## Commencer (Dec 20, 2005)

For what I understand, VW owns AUDI, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT, Skoda and VW. Porsche owns Porsche and 20% of VW. 

I love my A6 and would not trade it for a 5 series... 
I'll probably trade it in for a Quattroporte though!:thumbup:


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## Burrogs (May 2, 2005)

The reason people associate audi with VW (rightly so I believe) is because they share the same platforms/engines/transmissions/etc. in a large number of vehichles. 

Now when you are talking about the A6 and upwards, then the story is different. If memory serves me right, when I had my GTi, it was essentially the same car underneath as the Jetta, Beetle, TT, and A4. 

I think VW's link to Audi makes VW look better, but I'm not really sure that it hurts Audi that much. I would liken it more to Toyota and Lexus, or Nissan and Infinity (Stateside at least).


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

wagonman said:


> i have noted in the past on this forum that a put down on audi is people citing that it is made by vw. couldnt the same statement be made about porsche?


No. Porsche is an independent company that just recently bought into VW AG. VW AG has owned Audi for eons.


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## OlyVR (May 5, 2006)

blueguydotcom said:


> No. Porsche is an independent company that just recently bought into VW AG. VW AG has owned Audi for eons.


Correct, but they have worked together for eons too. Dr. Ferdinand Porsche designed the Beetle and then set out on his owns. Fast forward a few years and you get to today. Ferdinand Piech the former head of VW and now head of VW supervisory board is a grandson of Ferdinand Porsche and personally owns about 13% of Porsche. So officially Porsche is independent, but in actually those two companies are very intertwined.

http://carscarscars.blogs.com/index/2004/03/who_owns_who.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Piëch


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## SmoothCruise (Jul 23, 2005)

SilverX3 said:


> Is the latest Audi RS4 better than new M3 ????? That's the real question


I'm waiting for the shootout too. What's taking BMW so long? Release the car and let's give it to Jeremy, the Stig and the crew.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

OlyVR said:


> Correct, but they have worked together for eons too. Dr. Ferdinand Porsche designed the Beetle and then set out on his owns. Fast forward a few years and you get to today. Ferdinand Piech the former head of VW and now head of VW supervisory board is a grandson of Ferdinand Porsche and personally owns about 13% of Porsche. So officially Porsche is independent, but in actually those two companies are very intertwined.
> 
> http://carscarscars.blogs.com/index/2004/03/who_owns_who.html
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Piëch


Now they're intertwined. Porsche and VW AG were indie companies vis-a-vis each other. Yes they shared tech but officially they were not a combined company until Porsche recently bailed out VW AG.


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## OlyVR (May 5, 2006)

blueguydotcom said:


> Now they're intertwined. Porsche and VW AG were indie companies vis-a-vis each other. Yes they shared tech but officially they were not a combined company until Porsche recently bailed out VW AG.


On paper yes, but the cooperation between the two is and has been a lot closer than "normal" independent companies. Examples of this are the 1969-75 VW-Porsche as it was know in Europe (aka the Porsche 914) and the Porsche 924 which had very nice Audi running gear.


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## milobloom242 (Dec 28, 2004)

AEC said:


> No. VW doesn't own Porsche.


The CEO of VW is on the boards of both VW and Porsche. Porsche also has a large position in VW shares. Hence, they co-developed their SUV and probably collaborate alot more than that on many levels.


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## milobloom242 (Dec 28, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Now they're intertwined. Porsche and VW AG were indie companies vis-a-vis each other. Yes they shared tech but officially they were not a combined company until Porsche recently bailed out VW AG.


ah - you beat me to it and I didn't scroll down far enough to see your post!


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## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

Have you seen the noses on some recent VW's? Total Audi rip-off.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

In buying parts for our Passat, we often get OEM parts that have the Audi rings on them. Makes sense, considering the same engine comes in both brands. Maybe you're right, Audi isn't VW, instead VW is Audi.


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

I work with the corporate pilots for VW. The typical passengers are Audi, VW and Porsche execs.


BMW is also a customer with one of the newer jets I train on. They have yet to give me anything but a lousy hat......

They arrive in new BMW's since ( My guess) NA is only a few miles away. Sure beats the Malibu rental.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I think you could say the Porsche Cayenne is a VW though, in the same way an A3 is a Golf. 

People may mention the VW relationship as a reason for choosing a 325i over an A4, but that's not the real reason - cause the A4 is every bit as high quality as a 325i. Most people choose between those two based on styling, feel, drivetrain etc.


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## Penforhire (Dec 17, 2005)

I might have purchased the A4 if the styling and front wheel drive weren't issues. Audi lost respect in the USA many years ago but deserves much more today. My boss has a recent A6 Avant (station wagon) and it is a great car. It did suffer one of their recent quality issues. It died in the driveway due to some common problem with the individual spark plug coil system. Hard to say if we should hold that against the brand.

Winning the 24 hrs race with the first diesel engine just has to earn some respect.

I've seen a video of the Gallardo-like prototype (has most of the Gallardo chassis) Audi is working on. That could be a hot ride (gee, only 450 HP instead of 500 but I'll save $75K or more?)


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

Penforhire said:


> Winning the 24 hrs race with the first diesel engine just has to earn some respect.


Actually, BMW was the first to win a major 24hr race with a diesel-powered car. They did it with a 320d (a super touring chassis with a common rail diesel engine) at the Nurburgring 24hr.

But yeah, in recent years Audi have developed their brand pretty well by spending huge money in DTM and Le Mans/ALMS. The road racing imagine defintiely serves them better than the quattro rally offroad racer imagine these days, especially now that they are trying to compete with BMW who established their name in touring car racing. BMW on the other hand, spent billions of $$ in F1 to be seen as a loser.


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## SWISS (Apr 3, 2005)

OlyVR said:


> On paper yes, but the cooperation between the two is and has been a lot closer than "normal" independent companies. Examples of this are the 1969-75 VW-Porsche as it was know in Europe (aka the Porsche 914) and the Porsche 924 which had very nice Audi running gear.


My 944 had a Porsche engine, V dub parts all over from door handles to the steering wheel, and was assembled in an Audi plant. I noticed once when I pulled my trunk lock out to get a key made and it said "Porsche AG" which I learned meant Porsche,Audi,Ghia.:dunno: I thought Porsche owned the others, at least at one point.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

SWISS said:


> I noticed once when I pulled my trunk lock out to get a key made and it said "Porsche AG" which I learned meant Porsche,Audi,Ghia.:dunno:


"AG" after the name of a company in Germany stands for the word "Aktiengesellschaft" and means that the company is legally incorporated. It's like the letters "Inc." for a US corporation.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

VW and Audi are like Dodge/Chrysler, or Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Old/Cadillac, or Ford/Lincoln in the US. Same cars, differnt branding, different interiors, same body/chassis/drivetrain.

And obviously there is a close VW - Porsche connection when you look at the Cayenne/Toureg.


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## EcKoHeD (Jun 24, 2006)

Though it was a long time ago in conversation... Dr. Ferdinand Porsche was not the person who though of the beetle... it was Hitler... it stood for "the peoples car"... he also came up with their highway system plans...


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Wow, lots of misinformation on this thread.

First, Volkswagen is "the people's car." Do a search, read a few books, my God, Volkswagen means "the people's car."

Secondly, cooperation when building cars does not mean companies are one unit. Toyota and Chevy have built a few models side-by-side. The Geo Prizm/Toyota Corolla were built together. Lotus has tuned suspensions for other manufacturers. Toyota's 1.8 sits in the engine bay of US Elises. Last year Range Rovers used engines from BMW even though BMW had already sold Rover to Ford. The Mini has a cruddy engine from DC. Obviously DC and BMW AG are not the same company. Hell, the next mini will use an engine BMW developed with Peugot.

Read up on the history of VW, Posche and Audi. Yes, at one time they were *all* independent of each other. Audi's first automobile was released in 1901. VW AG purchased Audi in 1964...from Daimler-Benz. Yes kids, Benz owned Audi for a spell.

Porsche came around in 1931. Ferdinand Porsche was the engineer behind the first Volkswagen. VW and Porsche had a close connection from the start based on the cross-polination of developers, engineers, etc going from VW to Porsche. The first Porsche used many components from VWs...this is common as I pointed to above with separate car companies. Small companies, especially sports car makers, often use elements from mass-produced established manufacturer's products (McClaren's engines, the Noble's Ford 3.0, Lotus using Toyota's 1.8). That doesn't make a Noble sportscar a Ford.

In 2005 Porsche purchased 18+% of VW AG to help protect VW from a hostile takeover. The companes have long cooperated when building new vehicles (witness the Touraegg and the Cayene or how VW AG uses Porsche's Tiptronic and Porsche will soon use the DSG). Soon Porsche will expand their investment in VW AG to over 20% (new German laws make this possible).

To wrap up - Audi, VW, Porsche all started independently of each other. In 64 VW purchased Audi from Benz. In 2005 Porsche bought into VW AG (and thus Audi, Bugatti, et al). Content sharing among manufacturers does not mean the companies are linked in any fashion beyond cooperation that ideally benefits both parties...DC does not build Minis, Toyota doesn't make the Elise.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Realize that Chevy, Buick, Olds and Caddy started as separate companies. As did Doge and Chysler and Plymouth, and Ford and Lincoln.

And yes, there are many cases of the same car being branded by totaly separate companies, but in this case, VW owns Audi, and the cars are not parts (like the Toyota engine in an Elise), but basicaly the SAME car.


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## SWISS (Apr 3, 2005)

blueguydotcom said:


> Wow, lots of misinformation on this thread.
> 
> First, Volkswagen is "the people's car." Do a search, read a few books, my God, Volkswagen means "the people's car."
> 
> ...


 Well if that's not a merger it's a damn strong assimilation of the three. I think it's safe to say they are pretty much one in the same


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

wagonman said:


> i am playing devils advocate here: i say audi is a worthy competitor to bmw and mercedes. is audi better than bmw? of course not! i own a bmw. i think the 5 series is far superior to the audi a6


Can you please explain what this means ? When you say it is far superior ... exactly what does this mean ?

I test drove both and while both cars were very good I ended up with the A6 4.2 ...

This is coming from guy who has owned 4 bmw's plus a lot of other cars so it's not like I am biased of one over the other ...


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## Ajax (Feb 1, 2002)

SilverX3 said:


> Is the latest Audi RS4 better than new M3 ????? That's the real question


From all indications it's certainly better looking...


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## WildKarrde (Jun 14, 2006)

mrbelk said:


> and Bugatti >= Lamborghini >= Audi >= VW >= Skoda
> 
> Where does Bentley fit in there?
> 
> -MrB


Only one Bugatti is better than Lambo... and sadly, even if you have the money it would be hard to find one to buy.

As for the original topic, yes, it is. Or VW is Audi, however you want to look at it. Just like Acura is Honda, Lexus is Toyota, and Infinity is Nissan... it's just an executive trim level. Why is it such a bad thing? The world keeps turning... and Audi is still a good car.


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## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

Volkswagen> Audi > Porsche

All the same to me. 

And then Porsche uses a lot of parts from Volkswagen. One of the best selling Porsche products is the Cayenne which has Volkwagen printed on the door pillars.


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