# Autoxing the M3, take two...



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Andy said:


> Mark, what rebound and compression settings do you have your Konis set at, front and rear? I know you might adjust them based on certain conditions, but just wondering if you would be willing to share some detailed information on your setup and what you adjust for certain situations.
> 
> Are you willing to share your secrets? :angel:


You're better off talking philosophy than specifics, IMHO. Different cars, different shock valvings... don't get too caught up in specifics.

The how and more importantly -- the why -- will serve you better, IMHO.

Then take the info in and make your own calls and testing experiments.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Miss a gate around 1:01 in?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

nate said:


> Miss a gate around 1:01 in?


 Yes. First run was off course.

Doh!


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Andy said:


> Mark, what rebound and compression settings do you have your Konis set at, front and rear? I know you might adjust them based on certain conditions, but just wondering if you would be willing to share some detailed information on your setup and what you adjust for certain situations.
> 
> Are you willing to share your secrets? :angel:


secret #1; every model is unique and shocks are generally valved differently, it all just depends on what you have :dunno:

there are no hard answers, it's an acquired feel you can only develop through experience, bought my first set of custom Koni DA's in 1995 (they were rather rare for autox even then) and have had them on every vehicle since then, made a lot of mistakes, learned a lot of lessons

on one hand you can't be afraid to experiment, on the other hand you have to be a consistent enough driver to acquire accurate feedback/experience. I've only really begun acquiring this in the last several years myself :dunno:


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

I've been reading a lot about compression and rebound adjustments, however most of this applies to Road Racing. I also read that a setup for road racing and a setup for autocross needs to be completely different.

I guess I was just looking for a general rule of thumb as to where to start out at. For example, I guess I'm looking for a veteran autocrosser to tell me...

_For Autocross, you basically want your front rebound set near max, your front compression set near min., your rear rebound set near min. and your rear compression set near max._

Maybe it's not as simple as that. :dunno:

When I bought my Konis from TC Kline, Pete told me that the following settings would be a good starting point.

Front Rebound : full stiff minus 1.25 turns
Front Compression : full soft plus 4 clicks

Rear Rebound : full stiff minus .75 of a turn
Rear Compression : full soft plus 6 clicks

I have been racing with this setup for a while now and the car feels great, a lot better then stock, but is this the optimal setup? I have no idea. Can I get the car to handle better with a couple of adjustments? That is what I'd like to know, but have no idea what to change.

Now, I know Pete really knows his stuff when it comes to suspension, however he is a road racer not an autocrosser. I'm trying to get a few more data points from veteran autocrossers (I have a few questions in to Bob Tunnell... waiting to hear back).


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

well it's a starting point, but in all honesty unless they have driven your exact model, with exact other setup and tires it's really just a guess


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> well it's a starting point, but in all honesty unless they have driven your exact model, with exact other setup and tires it's really just a guess


That's what I was afraid of. I think I need to get me a crew chief so I don't have to worry about things like this... how much can I get one of those for? 

I honestly think I have a really good baseline with the settings I have now. The car handles great in the slaloms and in the fast sections. I'd like to get the front end to bite a little more in the tight/slow sections or at least get the rear end to rotate around a little more in these sections. However, I don't want to sacrifice the slaloms and high speed stuff. It seems from what I've read, you can improve one area, but you'll have to sacrifice in another... that's no fun.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Andy said:


> I honestly think I have a really good baseline with the settings I have now. The car handles great in the slaloms and in the fast sections. I'd like to get the front end to bite a little more in the tight/slow sections or at least get the rear end to rotate around a little more in these sections.


secret #2: a good baseline for someone pushing it at 80% of the limit ain't gonna work at 95%


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Screw setup...I'm still learning to drive.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

TeamZ4 said:


> secret #2: a good baseline for someone pushing it at 80% of the limit ain't gonna work at 95%


 So what you're saying is that I need you to drive my car and tell me if I need to change things, right?


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> secret #2: a good baseline for someone pushing it at 80% of the limit ain't gonna work at 95%


Maybe I just shouldn't worry about making adjustments until I'm at the 95% 100% of the time... wait, did that even make since?

Mark, you're welcome to come up here and co-drive my car at any of the local OVR or CENDIV events... and I mean it!! You're just not allowed to beat me and take away any of my precious points!!


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> So what you're saying is that I need you to drive my car and tell me if I need to change things, right?


  No, I'm just saying all the little nasty things don't rear their ugly heads until the car is continuously working near the limit 

errr ... on 2nd thought, yeah - I need to drive your car in order to offer a sound opinion :eeps: :angel:


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

·clyde· said:


> Screw setup...I'm still learning to drive.


:thumbup:

Good approach. Just leave the thing for a while and just try improve. One thing with Nick, Andy and Clyde is that you're all in either new cars or have made a tire change, or both.

That's a lot to digest and adjust to in itself. Learn to drive the car toward it's strengths, don't overdrive the weaknesses. Get to know it so well you'll know when it will start sliding and when it will stop sliding in a host of different corner shapes -- and be able to identify all those points when you're walking the course! Learn what a little trail-brake does, etc.

Only after you know all those things and more, then tune.

:angel:


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

racerdave said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Only after you know all those things and more, then tune.
> 
> :angel:


Gotta agree here. I went and spent the extra money on the externally adjustable rear SAs and I haven't even touched them since installation. They're 3/4 of a turn from full stiff. I think they are just fine there for now - and plus it's a PITA to take the rear speakers out to get to the top of the shocks.

Now, the fronts are a different story. I had them about a half turn from full SOFT for some reason. Three - four events ago I cranked them up a turn. The effect was that the car seemed to pitch less into bends and respond faster in slaloms. Possibly "jacking down" like Nicholas mentioned...

I didn't bother with the DA shocks because I wouldn't have a clue where to start... :eeps:

What was it that the editor of GRM said a few issues back... people should spend less time worrying about their shock settings and more time worrying about their driving...


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Getting back to my driving...

I had a VERY interesting chat with Brian Garfield last night. When I complained about my POS camera on the WDCR-Solo list, he watched and felt compelled to tell me to call him. His basic comment is that I tend to turn AFTER I've passed the cones. For some reason, this thought had never even occurred to me, but he's ABOSLUTELY RIGHT. It certainly explains why I'm always playing catch up on the course and my line is terrible.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

That's the thing for me. There's a lot left in the car as it is right now that I'm not getting use of. If there's a glaring issue, I'll do what I can to address it, but I don't even want to futz with tire pressures right now (dropping the rears from mid 50s to mid 30s notwithstanding :banghead: ). I'll take any setup advice that Mark may offer in a couple weeks after he drives my car, but I suspect that will be it for the rest of the year (save some experimentation in the final few events if I'm far enough behind John V. and Greg).


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

And don't worry about it taking that length of time. Like I've said before, I had a relatively tricky car to drive and the first year I was futzing with shocks, alignment, etc. I was always just a bit off the pace, and like 0.5-1.0 seconds off the guys in the same cars as mine who had been in them for a few years.

Then one day, I complained about one of the handling characteristics of the car (power-on understeer) that could NOT be altered in any way to one of the guys in the same car who was quicker than I was. He simply said, "You've got to live with it. Know there's no way around it; don't scrub off speed when it's happening." I didn't necessarily like hearing that because I hated the handling characteristic, but it made a lot of sense.

So I did it, got used to driving that way, then started beating the guy who gave me the advice and many others. I went from a "sometimes" contender to winning in a class that was very competitive at the time. (C-Stock in the mid 90s)

It took me a year to learn the lesson about driving the car to it's strengths and not overdriving the weaknesses. But it paid off, and it wasn't tuning that got it done. It was all the loose nut behind the wheel. :hi:

I'm just relating this so you guys can not misdirect your efforts into tuning too much, too soon.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

racerdave said:


> It took me a year to learn the lesson about driving the car to it's strengths and not overdriving the weaknesses. But it paid off, and it wasn't tuning that got it done. It was all the loose nut behind the wheel. :hi:
> 
> I'm just relating this so you guys can not misdirect your efforts into tuning too much, too soon.


Dave, that's great advise and that is something similar to what I have learned recently.

My driving style has changed dramatically since the Phase 1 Evolution School. It's actually kind'a funny, I use to think my car had way too much understeer before the school, no tuning was done, but oddly enough the enormous amount of understeer my car once had... well, most of it was completely gone. Like you said, it was the nut behind the wheel that caused all that understeer. 

I currently don't have any complaints about the way my car handles (now), so I'm not trying to learn how to adjust the suspension to "fix" anything. I'm trying to learn in advance, so when I begin driving the car at it's limits 100% of the time I'll be able to fine tune the suspension to help get the car to do what I want and ultimately shave time.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Funny how that works, huh? 

Nothing wrong with tuning for experimentation. That's really the only way to learn.

But now for my own unsolicited








(thanks Berford!)

...is to spend another 2 events on the Hoosiers without touching anything but tire pressures to allow yourself to really get to know the car on those tires.

Then experiment away.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

racerdave said:


> ...is to spend another 2 events on the Hoosiers without touching anything but tire pressures to allow yourself to really get to know the car on those tires.
> 
> Then experiment away.


Dave, I couldn't agree more about spending more time on those Hoosiers. I am still floored by how much faster those things are, I knew they'd be a little faster than my Kumhos, but that was just insane the difference they made. I'm eager to put more seat time in on those Hoosiers, because I know I'll only get faster as I get use to their grip.

As for experimenting on the shocks... I'll be honest I hesitate to even touch them from their current settings. I really want to learn more about it before I start making changes.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

:thumbup: Good call.


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