# M3 engine failures (S54)



## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Just ran across this post at the Org; I'm sure many of you have seen it:

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46/forum.php?postid=521991&page=1

Scary stuff. It's not clear how common these problems really are, but it certainly doesn't sound like an isolated incident.

BTW, WTF is the deal with over-revs and purported over-revs with M3s? There is the well known problem with early S52 engines, and now the same phenomenon is being used as a scapegoat for S54 failures. But I've never heard of this being a common problem with really any other car. What gives?


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I think the dealer can read the DIS and say what happened exactly. They can read everything, rev history, speed history etc.

I've heard a similar case here at my dealer. They towed a brand new M3 (a few hundred miles on it) to the dealer after an engine blow up. After reading the DIS, they have found out that the car has been driven like a Formula 1 car in the 'break in' period, like extreme high revs without running the engine warm etc. 

End of the story, BMW refused to cover it under warranty. And evidence was the DIS print-out.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> *I think the dealer can read the DIS and say what happened exactly. They can read everything, rev history, speed history etc.
> 
> I've heard a similar case here at my dealer. They towed a brand new M3 (a few hundred miles on it) to the dealer after an engine blow up. After reading the DIS, they have found out that the car has been driven like a Formula 1 car in the 'break in' period, like extreme high revs without running the engine warm etc.
> 
> End of the story, BMW refused to cover it under warranty. And evidence was the DIS print-out. *


I think the question is, is it the car or does the car attract idiot drivers?

I, too, have heard of the computer records beingused against an overrevving owner. But, as JST was asking, why don't you ever hear about this with other cars? Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I think the question is, is it the car or does the car attract idiot drivers?
> 
> I, too, have heard of the computer records beingused against an overrevving owner. But, as JST was asking, why don't you ever hear about this with other cars? Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs. *


Did the E36 M3s have the same problems ?


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> *
> 
> Did the E36 M3s have the same problems ? *


Yes.

I heard of M3 overrevs longs before there was an E46 M3.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I think the question is, is it the car or does the car attract idiot drivers?
> 
> I, too, have heard of the computer records beingused against an overrevving owner. But, as JST was asking, why don't you ever hear about this with other cars? Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs. *


But do we know/hear as much about other cars as we do about BMW's? It may just be from proximity to the overload of information.

Although I tend to agree that the M3 tends to attract some pretty immature drivers, imo. All you have to do is read the M3 board at the org for a week. People are constantly saying, "Finally got my 1200 mile service done. Time to let this b*tch rev to 8,000!"

Such idiotic thinking. They go 1200 miles obeying the specified break-in up to 1200 miles, but then TOTALLY ignore the rest of the break-in guidelines that say you shoud GRADUALLY increase max speed and rpms all the way up to 3200 miles.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> *People are constantly saying, "Finally got my 1200 mile service done. Time to let this b*tch rev to 8,000!"*


Just read a few posts over there. Yeah, overreving seems to be a common disease. And most of them are trying to find out the limits of each gear 

Keep up the good work guyz !


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs. *


The new Acura RSX has had many cases of engines blowing from overrevs...


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

nate328Ci said:


> *The new Acura RSX has had many cases of engines blowing from overrevs... *


Audi S4/RS4s having problems too (tranny, engine, valve etc etc) -lurked a bit on the Audi Forum.

So, it seems to me that it's *mostly* the driver. But I think, it wouldn't be wrong to say that those engines are a bit sensible too. I mean, getting 343 HP out of 3.3 L without any modification doesn't look to me like an easy job.

I'm not technical savvy like some of you here. You guys may have a better explanation for it.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> *
> 
> Audi S4/RS4s having problems too (tranny, engine, valve etc etc) -lurked a bit on the Audi Forum.
> 
> ...


I think that higher revving engines are easier to overrev :dunno:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

It's getting more interesting. I've browsed one of the biggest german BMW board. It seems that the S54 engines have some serious problems indeed.

Someone has posted a blown-up pic :










It seems to be that the high-revving M engines has reached its limit.

So, since more power with 6 cylinder on the next M3 doesn't make sense, I'm guessing that the next M3 will get an V8 engine.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*exactly.*

think about the room for error in engineering build tolerances in an engine which needs to rev to 8000rpms (on a mass production scale!) versus one which only needs to rev to 7200rpms.

a small block v8 (which most likely weighs less as an all aluminum engine than the iron block'd S54) makes more sense.

ps. you can overrev any manual transmission car. it's not just M3s. it's that people don't all drive m3s and experience the red rage of street racing and/or track rage.


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## Randy Forbes (Apr 1, 2002)

The S-54 engine when used in the 01-02 M Rdstr or Coupe is redlined (or limited) to 7400 rpm. 
I can live with "only" 315 hp if it means the engine will stay together!
BTW, it seems too, that a lot of these overrevs occur when downshifting at too high of a road speed for the gear chosen.
My dealer had an E-46 M3 in for "warranty" that was subjected to such abuse by its owner and the pissing match over the coverage began...
The owner was not happy with the outcome.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*overrev error:*

....is clearly driver error and should never be covered by BMW NA or any of its dealers.

yeah, you can fault the tranny bushings for being soft and the entire tunnel housing flexing under speed, but in the end, people need to shift more slowly particularly at WOT.

i got a firsthand look at an e36m3 motor which had overrev'd. wow. talk about scoring the pistons. all 6 had gouges from valves biting into them. and the valves....yikes. bent. 12 of 'em.

head needed work, new valves needed installing, and pistons, too. out of pocket $2500-3000.


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## dakarm (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: overrev error:*



blackdawg said:


> *....is clearly driver error and should never be covered by BMW NA or any of its dealers.
> 
> yeah, you can fault the tranny bushings for being soft and the entire tunnel housing flexing under speed, but in the end, people need to shift more slowly particularly at WOT.
> 
> ...


I agree this has nothing to do with the engine itself. If you miss a shift can "cause" the engine to over rev how can you blame the engine? You over reved the engine by missing the shift from say 5th and giong into 2nd instead of 4th.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: overrev error:*



dakarm said:


> *
> 
> I agree this has nothing to do with the engine itself. If you miss a shift can "cause" the engine to over rev how can you blame the engine? You over reved the engine by missing the shift from say 5th and giong into 2nd instead of 4th. *


Yes, but can driver error be exacerbated by vehicle design? If, e.g., BMW built a transmission with a shift pattern:

R 1 3 2

4 5

It would be easy to say that the weird, non-standard shift pattern contributed to driver error. Obviously, there's nothing that clearly different about M3s, but they do seem to have a higher overrev problem than, say, SHO Tauri or Mustangs, just to name two cars that probably attract a similarly enthusiastic driver.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the design of the tranny, but it's something to think about.


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## dakarm (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: overrev error:*



JST said:


> *
> 
> Yes, but can driver error be exacerbated by vehicle design? If, e.g., BMW built a transmission with a shift pattern:
> 
> ...


yes but the original post made it sound like it was the fault of the engine. I was just pointing that out. i'm very away of the problem with the tranny mounts. m coupe has the same problem, i near did the same thing myself but was lucky and the hit the clutch before the rpm went over 6500.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

*A couple of things*

Since I have not yet driven an E46 M3, and when I pick up mine, it it is SMG, I can't say about it. But the E36 M3 has a problem that the tranny/engine shifts under hard acceleration. ANd this makes the shift pattern move in relation to the driver.

So when you do the 2nd to 3rd upshift, 3rd is in a different place than you are used to. It could cause you to "upshift" to 1st, with seriously not good results.

The picture posted from Germany looks like classic detonation. Melted pistons are a common sign of this. There can be a problem with high performance engines running at higher speeds for long periods of time (like autobahn) need more MON (Motor Octane Number) fuel. The pump number is an average of MON and RON, and under most use the actual MON and RON don't matter, just the average. EXCEPT in those conditions I just mentioned. SO this one could be the result of questionable fuel and a long autobahn run.

An overrev normally causes bent valves (rods stretch under the higher loads and the pistons hit the valves).

The thing is there are reports of several engines eating rod bearings. This could be overrev, or could be lubrication failure. No count of which years, production dates, or even the oil used. But it is interesting that BMW changed the oil from 5W-30 to a special 10W-60. And it is known that not all dealers are using the right oil.

Or it could be a problem with the engines. Form the reports BMW is sending the blown engines, those without DIS overrev indications, back to Germany for analysis.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*amazing thing about the S54 (if i remember correctly):*

if i remember correctly, the S54 is an undersquare engine.

it's freaking amazing that they have mass produced an undersquare engine with an 8000rpm redline.

granted, there seem to be quite a bit of problems with OEM parts for the engine such as the rods, though.


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## DrBimmer (Dec 23, 2001)

This is not an M3 issue....

I have seen several cars at the dealer with blown engines over the past few months, ranging from Z3s to a 325xit to E36 M3s. My dealer has yet to see an E46 M3..... but that is not to say that it isn't happening.


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## ///M Rakete (Apr 1, 2002)

Last October or so BMW changed the clearances on the connecting rod bearing shells for the S54 motors. There is a service bulletin regarding rod and bearing replacement. They went from .03mm to .04mm. Seems like lubrication was an issue. This is why I ordered my 2002 M Coupe in February and didn't even bother to find one on a dealer lot. I wanted a "new" engine if possible.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Here's the fun post listing 10 blown engine accounts.

http://forums.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum.php?postid=351947

I don't believe that everyone is overreving their engine. Sure there are a few spoiled IcyStunta boys driving M3's like crap, but there are way more people who are enthusiasts and treat their cars well.

The scary part is the denial of warranty. That gives BMW license to do whatever they please with respect to honoring warranty. If they even suspect that you did something fishy then who knows what they will say and do to get out of fixing a problem that may be a design problem.

I guess these problems are probably teething pains for the first couple of model years. Sucks for the owners though.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

JPinTO said:


> *
> The scary part is the denial of warranty. That gives BMW license to do whatever they please with respect to honoring warranty. If they even suspect that you did something fishy then who knows what they will say and do to get out of fixing a problem that may be a design problem.*


They can't deny the warranty without firm evidence of an overrev, which is easily obtainable through the car's ECU.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

atyclb said:


> *They can't deny the warranty without firm evidence of an overrev, which is easily obtainable through the car's ECU. *


I don't think there's any doubt whether an overrev happened, but I would say what happened to lead to that overrev is what determines whether the claim honored.

Was it a missed shift (5-2) caused by carelessness at high speeds in racing conditions, or was it the shift pattern moving on the driver causing the 5-2 overrev?


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## porkyzilla (Apr 18, 2002)

isnt that what they have the rev limiter for to prevent that?


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

porkyzilla said:


> *isnt that what they have the rev limiter for to prevent that? *


Rev Limiter will not work when down shifting to too low of a gear.


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## ayn (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: A couple of things*



Pinecone said:


> *Since I have not yet driven an E46 M3, and when I pick up mine, it it is SMG, I can't say about it. But the E36 M3 has a problem that the tranny/engine shifts under hard acceleration. ANd this makes the shift pattern move in relation to the driver.
> 
> So when you do the 2nd to 3rd upshift, 3rd is in a different place than you are used to. It could cause you to "upshift" to 1st, with seriously not good results.
> *


yeah, I've heard about this problem with the E36 a lot. I know a guy who did a money-shift. I heard a tranny mount helps a lot with this.

--Andrew


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## ayn (Dec 19, 2001)

porkyzilla said:


> *isnt that what they have the rev limiter for to prevent that? *


the limiter doesn't work when u want to upshift but mistakenly downshifted, because your *wheels* are driving your tranny.

--Andrew


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## Law (Apr 18, 2002)

This happened to me. BMW claimed some casting material was left over from production and covered it completly with a new motor.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Here's an update from the E46 M3 board on the Org:

http://forums.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum.php?postid=407881&page=1


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## WAM (Jan 30, 2002)

The rev limiter is effective when you are going up the gearbox. Everytime you hit the limiter, you shift up to the next gear.

However, if you are in 5th gear and near the redline, shifting into a lower gear will cause the engine to exceed the redline.

The interesting thing is that it is happening to SMG cars, which according to theory, prevent over-revving by delaying downshifts until a safe engine speed. :yikes:


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Those stories are a nightmare! :yikes: :yikes: 

It really seems like BMW needs to back that rev-limit down way past 8000. If these things are popping @8500, then move it down! And they need to move the hp peak lower too, if the engine can't handle it.

- JP


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## FASTER3 (Apr 22, 2002)

I wonder why this isn't happening with S2000s as they rev to 8900. Maybe those drivers are more mature?


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

FASTER3 said:


> *I wonder why this isn't happening with S2000s as they rev to 8900. Maybe those drivers are more mature?  *


That's an issue many have brought up... and the reason many are pointing to a design problem.


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## dakarm (Apr 1, 2002)

FASTER3 said:


> *I wonder why this isn't happening with S2000s as they rev to 8900. Maybe those drivers are more mature?  *


smaller pistons, lower mass? just a guess.

I doubt the S2000 drivers more mature.

I would say about the same.


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## ggman (Apr 23, 2002)

*m3 engine failures*

I guess when you buy your car, the dealer thinks he is covered in his liability when he tells you to " READ YOUR WARRANTY BOOK AND DRIVERS GUIDE ". 
If it had not been for ROAD & TRACK, and CAR & DRIVER I would not know a lot about the workings of my M 
When I picked up my M the detail guy was sitll cleaning it up. He asked me if I wanted to leave the little window stickers on that were in the upper lefthand corner of the wind screen. Something told me to say "YES". I figured that they where only tire guide info, or seatbelt and airbag precautions. at about 900 miles I just happened to take a closer look at them and found out that one of them was the break-in guide. Well up to that point I was driving the car like it was a formula 1 car, especialy with the SMG.
:eeps:

I just hope I didnt do anything too stupid that was loged by the computer. I also hope the down shift program over rev limiter was working.( SMG cars are supposed to be idiot or goof proof when it comes to rev limits and stuff).
:angel: 
P.S. Why did the service rep at Long beach BMW try to sell me a DIHAN program up-grade that removed the rev limiter and speed limiter


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## FASTER3 (Apr 22, 2002)

*Re: m3 engine failures*



ggman said:


> * P.S. Why did the service rep at Long beach BMW try to sell me a DIHAN program up-grade that removed the rev limiter and speed limiter *


I'm sure (s)he would have given you the Dinan M Manual with full break-in info. Oh wait, you only get that after you buy enough parts to be eligible for that super cool "DINAN" badge.


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## FASTER3 (Apr 22, 2002)

dakarm said:


> *
> I doubt the S2000 drivers more mature.
> 
> I would say about the same. *


Indeed. I'd love for someone to plot a graph proving that well-known correlation between driver age (or experience) with catastrophic failures like this one. Now THAT would be interesting.


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## ggman (Apr 23, 2002)

OK, I can see spending the money but will the "DINAN" badge make my M go faster??


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## FASTER3 (Apr 22, 2002)

ggman said:


> *OK, I can see spending the money but will the "DINAN" badge make my M go faster??  *


They say Schumacher's red car alerts others to get out of the way, and thusly improves his lap times...so you just never know. Imagine what he could do with a red car AND a Dinan badge!!!


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