# clutch shudder just developed at 36k



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok, searched the forums and it seems like clutch shudder is pretty common. Some of the threads made is sound like it is normal and you just need to deal with it. But this thread, Ben Chou got his clutch replaced

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8011&highlight=clutch+shudder

Since our car just started to have the problem at 36k is seems like some sort of defect to me. It only happens when the car is cold and in first gear as far as I can tell. I would guess is it related to the clutch material being cold and not properly catching.

I am taking our wagon into the dealer to get the brakes worked on before our maintenance warrenty is over with(35850 right now :yikes. So I am also asking them to look at the clutch shudder. Should I demand and push for it be fixed or will I just need to learn to deal with it?

thx
Jeff


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

Jeff_DML said:


> Ok, searched the forums and it seems like clutch shudder is pretty common. Some of the threads made is sound like it is normal and you just need to deal with it. But this thread, Ben Chou got his clutch replaced
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8011&highlight=clutch+shudder
> 
> ...


I got that problem too (24K miles). The dealer cannot replicate it of course, since the car is warm by the time I get there. Let me know if you succeed!


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

Akakubi said:


> I got that problem too (24K miles). The dealer cannot replicate it of course, since the car is warm by the time I get there. Let me know if you succeed!


 :doh: , yeah I expecting that to happen to me too. "Sorry cannot reproduce it"


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

When the cold weather rolls around I give the car more throttle then normal and let the clutch out a little later, this seems to help with the cold 1st gear shuttering. After a couple launches the clutch stops the shuddering.


----------



## KP (Apr 16, 2002)

If you're really concerned about it, I would push them to fix it if possible. I had this problem as well from 15k-23k, but after that it just went away. At 43k now knocking on wood.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

KP said:


> If you're really concerned about it, I would push them to fix it if possible. I had this problem as well from 15k-23k, but after that it just went away. At 43k now knocking on wood.


yeah, I figured I can do what Artslinger suggests, just slip it a bit more at the beginning to warm it up quickly but I dont think I should need to do that. See what happens at the dealer


----------



## e46shift (Oct 12, 2002)

have it here,'03 9kmi. shakes the crap outta the whole car but i do what Artslinger does to eliminate/reduce it.


----------



## j2 (Jun 13, 2003)

My clutch has done this from day one (delivery with 10 miles). It only seems to happen when you try and launch with the RPMs around 2000-2500 and you slip the clutch a little longer than you normally would during a normal start.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Clutch shudder starts out from 'hot spots' developing on the face of the clutch. If the hot spot keeps growing, it will only get worse over time.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Clutch shudder starts out from 'hot spots' developing on the face of the clutch. If the hot spot keeps growing, it will only get worse over time.


how do you cause "hot spots"?

thx


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Jeff_DML said:


> how do you cause "hot spots"?
> 
> thx


By slipping the clutch.

The clutch works similarly to a brake rotor and pad. All the posts regarding 'steering wheel shudder while braking' and 'clutch shudder' are basically the same thing. Hotspots on the rotor/clutch plate which manifest themselves by way of vibration/shaking when these uneven surfaces make contact with their counterparts.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

sergiok said:


> By slipping the clutch.
> 
> The clutch works similarly to a brake rotor and pad. All the posts regarding 'steering wheel shudder while braking' and 'clutch shudder' are basically the same thing. Hotspots on the rotor/clutch plate which manifest themselves by way of vibration/shaking when these uneven surfaces make contact with their counterparts.


thanks, like you said it sounds like it will just get worse. My wife and I dont slip the clutch that bad, just enough to smooth out gear changes and acceleration. Neither of us have had clutch problems in previous cars too 

I took it in for service at lunch and the advisor sounded pretty confident that it will get resolved. :thumbup:


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Jeff_DML said:


> thanks, like you said it sounds like it will just get worse. My wife and I dont slip the clutch that bad, just enough to smooth out gear changes and acceleration. Neither of us have had clutch problems in previous cars too
> 
> I took it in for service at lunch and the advisor sounded pretty confident that it will get resolved. :thumbup:


Well, for most cars, the clutch is used quite infrequently, especially on cars that are predominantly used on long streches of highway roads. You rarely shift. Furthermore, you'd only get this clutch chatter/shudder in 1st gear.

My previous car, an e36, had 130k on it and the clutch chattered like crazy when warm. I subsequently learned to not slip the clutch as much in order to prevent hotspots from developing on it. Then again, I only had to do this in very slow traffic and only in 1st gear.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

sergiok said:


> By slipping the clutch.
> 
> The clutch works similarly to a brake rotor and pad. All the posts regarding 'steering wheel shudder while braking' and 'clutch shudder' are basically the same thing. Hotspots on the rotor/clutch plate which manifest themselves by way of vibration/shaking when these uneven surfaces make contact with their counterparts.


IMO, the cold 1st gear shutter is from two things.

1.) When the clutch is cold it has a tendency not to grab as well.

2) The E46 dual mass flywheel and the self adjusting clutch causes a vibration/shudder effect.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> 1.) When the clutch is cold it has a tendency not to grab as well.


It is most likely being caused by some part of the clutch being warmed up (warm/hot spot) before the rest of the clutch.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

sergiok said:


> It is most likely being caused by some part of the clutch being warmed up (warm/hot spot) before the rest of the clutch.


warm/hot spot... waahhh?

I don't know about the other posters in this thread, but I have been driving cars with a clutch for 30 years.

How can you have a warm spot when the clutch is sitting outside in 30 degree weather. What I'm referring to is the first one or two launches on a E46 cold clutch. I have never had to replace a clutch in any of may past cars and believe a clutch is far more durable and reliable then you are making it out to be.

I guess my car came new with these "hot spots" since the car has been doing this since day one. Maybe you may have developed "hot spots" with your clutches but don't give me some BS about my car.


----------



## richard (Apr 3, 2002)

I agree Artslinger. Mine has done the same thing since new. I never abuse the clutch and have just learned to be ultra careful for the first couple launches when cold. I'm not saying that hot spots can't occur with abuse, but I don't think that's what's happening in our case. Plus, I would think the problem would be the same hot or cold with a burnt spot on the clutch.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

richard said:


> I agree Artslinger. Mine has done the same thing since new. I never abuse the clutch and have just learned to be ultra careful for the first couple launches when cold. I'm not saying that hot spots can't occur with abuse, but I don't think that's what's happening in our case. Plus, I would think the problem would be the same hot or cold with a burnt spot on the clutch.


I don't know the exact properties of a clutch plate. I know that a clutch basically works the same as a brake and hot spots can occur, even if they are 'cold' at the time if there has been sufficient heat change in one area, that hotspot will remain even after the surface has cooled.

Also, a clutch will be much more sensitive to any variation and those variations are easily manifested in vibrations, etc. Think about it, you have two surfaces, one of them completely stationary and the other is rotating at no less than 850rpm. Having them engage seamlessly, with no heat build up it quite a feat.


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

I would think worn parts, flywheel warping, fluid contaminating clutch linings, or improper installation of the clutch would be more common problems than hot spots.

Here is a good info link I found while researching this problem a few months ago.

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ic/ic100237.htm


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

I dont know what is causing it but I do know that it is not acceptable. I havent been driving as long as artslinger but like him I have never had problems with my clutches in previous cars too. So I do not think it is caused by the way my wife or I drive it. Seems like some sort of defect to me and hopefully my dealer fixes it.

thanks for the link


----------



## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

for the cold start issue, IMO it's the dual mass flywheel. The rubber absorber between the two masses is stiffer when cold and becomes more compliant as it warms up.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> for the cold start issue, IMO it's the dual mass flywheel. The rubber absorber between the two masses is stiffer when cold and becomes more compliant as it warms up.


That definitely may be it although I didn't know that the E46 came with a dual mass flywheel. :dunno:


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

sergiok said:


> That definitely may be it although I didn't know that the E46 came with a dual mass flywheel. :dunno:


I mentioned that at post number 14 of this thread.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

darn it, dealer called and said they could not reproduce the clutch shudder.  They also said BMWNA is pretty picky about replacing the clutch anyhow 

got my rear brakes replaced at least


----------

