# Major Problem! I am 5 weeks from my ED and got DUI!



## jjp335xi (Jun 10, 2010)

All,

Please call in all the experts and assist, I am an absolute wreck over here.

I got a DUI (OVI) this last weekend and while have yet to be convicted of it, I have the charge and my license has been suspended. Without going into any details, I believe that the license suspension will hold, at least for 90 days.

Given this, my ED for my 335xi is July 21 - and I just got the confirmation email/production email a bit ago. My dealer has checked into the situation and said that all should be okay to take delivery - my license (copy) has already been sent to BMW. 

However, in the email, it states to bring my passport and a valid license. Additionally, *everything in the common sense part of my brain expects them to require a license as well.* I have not found where it says I must bring that elsewhere on bimmerfest, just passport - but I am looking for advice on what has happened when other folks have gotten there.

I'm very, very worried and if the worst case scenario plays out I don't know what I will do. Please assist.

Thanks in advance.
JJP


----------



## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

jjp335xi said:


> All,
> 
> Please call in all the experts and assist, I am an absolute wreck over here.
> 
> ...


My license was not required at any time during my ED trip, only my passport. When the German police pulled me over to check my documents, they also did not ask for a driver's license, only my passport.

Do you still have the physical license in your possession?


----------



## jjp335xi (Jun 10, 2010)

the J-Man said:


> My license was not required at any time during my ED trip, only my passport. When the German police pulled me over to check my documents, they also did not ask for a driver's license, only my passport.
> 
> Do you still have the physical license in your possession?


Well, this helps bring me down a notch to know - thanks J-Man. No, I don't have the physical license in my possestion, it was confiscated at the stop. Here's what my lawyer said (cryptic, I know

I will keep the dates you indicate in mind and schedule around them. I am not entirely sure about the problem with the car in Germany. I am quite certain this will not affect your ability to buy a car or receive a car from Germany. Driving in Germany with occupational privileges from Ohio may cause a problem, but that is a temporary affliction. There is no way to postpone the Administrative License Suspension during the pendency of this action. I will think about possible grounds to appeal the ALS, but, off hand, I do not believe there are any and, the judge is unlikely to stay the ALS even if we do appeal.

Still very, very confused although J-Man gave me some hope.

Please, anyone else that can lend advice it would be hugely appreciated!
JJP


----------



## M FUNF (Apr 2, 2008)

First, IF this is your 1st DUI, you are going to spend somewhere in the neighborhood of $5k on a GOOD lawyer who specializes in your problem, they are lower than personal injury lawyers and ambulance chasers but a good one will be worth the cost. He probably will get your case pled down to some secondary charge with a large fine. Then your insurance will skyrocket BMW's will be almost uninsurable, and that will remain for about 5 years. If this is not your first then you will and should be screwed.


----------



## HerrK (Jan 9, 2010)

the J-Man said:


> My license was not required at any time during my ED trip, only my passport. When the German police pulled me over to check my documents, they also did not ask for a driver's license, only my passport.
> 
> Do you still have the physical license in your possession?


You will need your DL. It is required as noted in the ED package. I had to show my CA DL along with my passport during predelivery at the Welt in May.


----------



## TTG (Sep 13, 2006)

HerrK said:


> You will need your DL. It is required as noted in the ED package. I had to show my CA DL along with my passport during predelivery at the Welt in May.


+1. They will ask for your drivers license and they do make a copy of it.

If I were you, I would see if you can put someone else on your insurance to drive the car and take it straight to drop off.... Even better, pay the extra fee and leave your car at the Welt.


----------



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

Even after taking delivery, you still can't drive the car so what is your plan for after you take delivery?


----------



## stan01 (Jan 15, 2010)

Can you still cancel the order?


----------



## MSY-MSP (Aug 14, 2009)

Well I guess this is a reason to keep an extra license hanging around (get your primary license "lose it' and then apply for a replcament, that way you have a "spare"). I am joking on this one.

In all seriousness this is quite a predicament. I am a lawyer and have handled a number of DUI/OWI for friends (you would be suprised how common they are), I am not licensed in Ohio or any other state having a Columbus, so the following is not legal advice, but just educated experience and comments.

1) Depending on the circumstances of the stop and arrest the penalities will differ greatly. I have been lucky in the fact that the states where I have practiced don't have DUI checkpoints. This makes challenging the case significantly easier. If you were arrested at a checkpoint then the likelyhood of winning an adminstrative hearing is extremely low. (they aren't very high to begin with regardless). I beleive this is why your attorney doesn't recommend this action. (I have only done it once and lost despite completely winning the case in criminal court, illegal stop and no suspicion of DUI until breath test) If you were stopped on the street your attorney will have an easier time defending you against the DUI. Regardless the process is both long and tiring.

2) The penalties are something that i generally advise people not to go against. So if you have a suspended license. Do not drive. If you get a work permit, use it exactly as the terms dictate. I have heard stories of folks being asked by their probation officers what they did and getting caught for violating the terms of the permit. In your personal case it is likely that (assuming that you are convicted) they will ask about the purchase of the new car and if it is determined that you drove it, even outside the US, you could be found to be in violation of the terms of your permit or the suspension bringing onto yourself even harsher penalties or more charges. 

3) I am assuming you live in Ohio so it appears from the law you can get a permit that will allow you to drive in 15 days. However, you will need to show hardship (which your attorney will explain to you) in order to get any sort of permit. This will likely be restricted to going from your home to work, to any court ordered treatment programs, to court appearances, and in some instances religious services. Again if you get one of these permits don't violate the restrictions. Also, again assuming Ohio, you will likely get the dreaded yellow and red plate for your car (especially if you had a high BAC, generally .16 or higher). 

4) I am not sure on this one, and again your attorney will tell you more, depending on the circumstances it appears that an interlock may be required on your car as a result of this. I have been told that the interlocks and manual transmissions do not work well together. So if you ordered a car with a manual transmission and you have to install an interlock on the car, it may not work well. 

5) If you are convicted of the DUI then also note you cannot go to Canada, and it is up in the air if you can even transit Canada. A DUI conviction makes a person inadmissable to Canada for a minimum of 5 years after the completion of any sentence imposed. Even after the 5 year period you are still inadmissable to Canada unless you apply for rehabilitation or are deemed rehabilitated (usually after 10+years). If you need to go prior to the 5 year period you need to apply for a TRP (temporary resident permit) in essence a Visa for Canada. These are expensive options (upwards of $2-5k). If going to Canada is important to you be careful on any plea agreement you take as well. Certain reckless/careless driving offenses can also make you inadmissable to Canada as well. (I have a number of friends who do a nice living handling DUI issues related to entry into Canada)

I know this can be a trying time for you and you will recieve a lot of "advice" from many places. However, the one thing I cannot recommend stronger is follow the advice of your attorney.

I wish you the best of luck in your case. Learn from your mistake, but also realize that many other people have made the same error in judgement

I would be happy to answer any questions you have via PM


----------



## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

MSY-MSP said:


> Well I guess this is a reason to keep an extra license hanging around (get your primary license "lose it' and then apply for a replcament, that way you have a "spare"). I am joking on this one.


Actually - that isn't a bad idea. Why would this not work outside of the USA?


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

I too had to show both my CA driver's license and my passport the Welt officials in Nov when we picked up the car. 

Dick


----------



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

chrischeung said:


> Actually - that isn't a bad idea. Why would this not work outside of the USA?


I thought that MSY-MSP's statement that the OP should not fail to comply with any penalties clearly addressed this point, no? :dunno:


----------



## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

It is interesting that people are saying they had to show their license. I picked up my car 2 weeks ago, and most certainly did not show my driver's license. In fact, I didn't even think about it, as I had it packed away deep in my luggage. Come to think of it, they did not even copy my passport at delivery. The guy that did my paperwork glanced at it for about 2 seconds and gave it right back.

My CA, however, did make a copy of my license when I placed my order, so perhaps they already had it on file?

In such case, the OP states that his CA did make a copy of the license, so they might not need it?

That being said, he can probably get away with driving in Germany. The police may or may not want it if he is stopped. In my case, they did not want my license. Furthermore, I don't think the German cops have any way of determining if his US license has been suspended. The situation would likely change if he were in a severe accident, however, and they investigated the situation more thoroughly. In sum, it seems too risky for the OP to drive the car. If the car is wrecked, I could easily see his insurance coverage being denied.

I think he will still be fine picking up the car and taking delivery in Munich, however. At that point, his travel companion will need to drive for the duration of the trip, or he will need to leave the car at the Welt, pay the 60 euros, and send the car on its way home.


----------



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

the J-Man said:


> That being said, he can probably get away with driving in Germany..


At this point, I doubt it. BMW reads these forums too. I'm sure the OP's file has been noted by now.


----------



## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

JSpira said:


> I thought that MSY-MSP's statement that the OP should not fail to comply with any penalties clearly addressed this point, no? :dunno:


Personal judgement call. The OP may consider going with a spouse or friend to pick up their car I expect.


----------



## bimmer_fam (Apr 16, 2007)

OP, Are you planning on doing ED alone? If not (most have company), have your companion drive for you. I believe you still will be able to buy the car, even if you can't drive it yourself. Honestly, don't recall showing my license at the BMW Welt during delivery...but that is not the point. Not sure it's a good advice to try and "get away" without a license.


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Driving with a suspended license is of course illegal in Germany. If you get caught, things might not go well for you. As others have suggested, find someone else to drive the car for you or pay to have it trucked to drop-off.

Your suspension will just about be over by re-delivery. 

FWIW we were asked for our driver's licenses in Munich but that was in 2007.


----------



## boothguy (Feb 1, 2007)

Solid, comprehensive information from MSY-MSP that pulls no punches. Well done.

When I did both my trips, the license was the first thing asked for when starting the delivery-day paperwork. And on both trips, the export plates attracted the attention of law enforcement: on Lake Como in '04 and near Garmisch in '08, both for a thorough check of every single piece of paper we could produce to prove that this really was an export vehicle. And my license got a very close examination both times. They obviously don't have the ability to check a computer database, but these guys weren't messing around.


----------



## CinANC (Feb 2, 2007)

I provided a copy of my license to my CA as part of the purchase process, and understood this was forwarded somewhere into the ED system. In Switzerland I was asked for my license and passport, as well as my car papers, in a border check entering from France. 

An email from my wife this week, in Halifax on a business trip, converges with MST-MSP's comments re: Canada and US DUI's. A lady friend of my wife's flew to Halifax to stay with her a few days. Here is some of my wife's email to me the next day:

"She was delayed for 1 1/2 hours in customs because they discovered she had a DWI in the U.S. They first told her she had to leave in the morning - couldn't stay. Finally they fined her $200 and told her she couldn't rent a car."


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Just occurred to me that the ED insurance likely doesn't provide cover if the driver has a suspended license.


----------



## Shadyg (Jan 23, 2008)

I traveled through seven countries and was never pulled over for an information/document check. Maybe I was lucky. 

However, I believe you sign something which states you are licensed to drive in the US and if that changes prior to delivery you must inform BMW (at least that's what I recall). MY driver's license was checked by BMW at Welt check in.


----------



## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

:dunno:
I can't believe this thread has some many responses. None of the EU countries allow driving without valid driver license. Counting on not being asked to show the prove of driver license is the same as counting on not getting DUI which driving drunk; not hard to guess what OP will do.
OP has to be there to pick up the car, he can have second driver with him with valid driver license which need to be added to insurance. 
I'm not very judgmental person, but OP(EDITED BY MODERATOR, Statement Inappropriate)


----------



## thumper_330 (Jan 3, 2009)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> As others have suggested, find someone else to drive the car for you or pay to have it trucked to drop-off.


+1 Best advice in this thread, by far. Quite frankly, even risking driving the car without a valid drivers license is just asking for trouble and compounding an already very serious error in judgment with another.

Do the smart thing and do one of the above. Personally, if I were you unless you had a very specific itinerary planned I'd just go to the Welt, pick up your car and have it trucked. I'm sure they'd at least allow you the victory lap, but then just have it trucked and go enjoy Munich for a few days and keep your chin up; as mentioned earlier, your car will probably be redelivered about the same time your suspension is over.

I know you'll miss the experience of driving your car in Germany, but there's absolutely no need to take unnecessary risks for this ED and possibly end up with criminal charges and moving violations in two countries. If you think fighting a DUI in Ohio is bad, try fighting that AND a charge of driving without a license in Germany. The cost of the attorneys alone may exceed the cost of your car.


----------



## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

If I couldn't enjoy my car, and that was the purpose, I'd delay my trip until I could. Drive another car until you can go - or pick up a short term transfer.

Personally, ED is about the experience, not the cost savings. In the OPs situation, where they will be facing a lot more in payments for lawyers and increased insurance, I can't see the ED savings being a significant financial consideration. Plus they will have limited use of the new car once back home.


----------



## BRAISKI (Jan 25, 2010)

tlak77 said:


> :dunno:
> I can't believe this thread has some many responses. None of the EU countries allow driving without valid driver license. Counting on not being asked to show the prove of driver license is the same as counting on not getting DUI which driving drunk; not hard to guess what OP will do.
> OP has to be there to pick up the car, he can have second driver with him with valid driver license which need to be added to insurance.
> I'm not very judgmental person, but OP next time make sure you hit the wall while drunk you'll do favor for the rest of society.


Well said! :thumbup:


----------



## kcdude (Sep 17, 2004)

chrischeung said:


> If I couldn't enjoy my car, and that was the purpose, I'd delay my trip until I could. Drive another car until you can go - or pick up a short term transfer.


+1

If it were me I would bag the deal, get a beater with cheapo liability insurance, and get my life straighted out. However "common" DUIs might be, it still is a wake up call and there will always be time to buy cars later. Just my $0.02.


----------



## BRAISKI (Jan 25, 2010)

the J-Man said:


> That being said, he can probably get away with driving in Germany.


Sorry dude but this really a stupid advice... You are pretty much telling someone to drive around without a drivers license which is doing something illegal this is not the US, this is EU. Of course in the end its OP choice if he gets caught driving without a license he will suffer, are you going to pay the price for it?

In the end OP made a bad choice and he has to live with it.

I know most of the guys here are trying to "help" this guy but this is not like a speeding ticket, parking ticket where its usually a minor offense. This is a DUI and most places this is considered a major offense, some you get thrown in jail!

Seriously if you can't do the time don't do the crime...

I have no remorse for ppl that gets caught doing DUI. A friend of a friend died because of the driver was DUI.

OP if you can get your license back then thats good for you but if you can't I strongly suggest that you cancel your ED. Think 10x before going there without a DL. Some ppl here are giving your healthy advice and some telling you to take a risk. Remember you will be the one that will suffer if you get caught, not them. Also you will be stressed out while you are there because you know that you are doing something illegal and can get caught at anytime.

It is not the end of the world, where you need to do this. Perhaps you can do the ED again sometime when you learned your lesson...


----------



## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

BRAISKI said:


> Sorry dude but this really a stupid advice... You are pretty much telling someone to drive around without a drivers license which is doing something illegal this is not the US, this is EU. Of course in the end its OP choice if he gets caught driving without a license he will suffer, are you going to pay the price for it?


Would you say it's acceptable for the OP to get another Driver's license in another state/country and use that?

For a while I used to have 2 drivers licenses when I was between countries.


----------



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

chrischeung said:


> Would you say it's acceptable for the OP to get another Driver's license in another state/country and use that?
> 
> For a while I used to have 2 drivers licenses when I was between countries.


You weren't charged with a DWI - for him to drive would put him into non-compliance with the penalties currently in force.


----------



## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

That is true - I am not clear on the restrictions of DWI.

My point being, there MAY be a limit on the extent of the restrictions on a DWI. For example, it may not forego someone driving on private property, in another country, etc. However, as you state, it may preclude them from driving anywhere - even the moon. I don't know. And it's in the best interests of the OP to understand where they stand.

It's just a stretch for me to appreciate that a court in Ohio has juristiction on what I can do in another country, IF that other country has no restriction charges in other juristictions. That's not to say that a court in Ohio couldn't prosecute me for something they did elsewhere, but now we're really getting off what the OP's options are.

*What I personally am advocating, is for the OP to use all legal means and resources at his dispoal to make the best of a poor situation.* As an analogy, my wife unknowingly entered the Czech Republic without a required visa - perhaps constituting illegal entry. We used resources and time to turn this around and make her entry legal. I recommend the OP do something similar. Use time and resources to create a successful ED.


----------



## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

chrischeung said:


> Actually - that isn't a bad idea. Why would this not work outside of the USA?


Because it's illegal.
You're driving with a copy of a revoked and confiscated license.
If you're willing to go the illegal route, just drive without a license and hope for the best.



MSY-MSP said:


> 3) I am assuming you live in Ohio so it appears from the law you can get a permit that will allow you to drive in 15 days. However, you will need to show hardship (which your attorney will explain to you) in order to get any sort of permit. This will likely be restricted to going from your home to work, to any court ordered treatment programs, to court appearances, and in some instances religious services. Again if you get one of these permits don't violate the restrictions. Also, again assuming Ohio, you will likely get the dreaded yellow and red plate for your car (especially if you had a high BAC, generally .16 or higher).


This won't help him.
He can't even drive to the airport to board a plane, let alone drive in Germany.



JSpira said:


> Even after taking delivery, you still can't drive the car so what is your plan for after you take delivery?


How about taking a passenger?
You take delivery (I don't suppose they would refuse to give you the car, since it's been paid for and you have a passport to prove ownership) and let the passenger drive in Germany.


----------



## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Boile said:


> Because it's illegal.
> You're driving with a copy of a revoked and confiscated license.
> If you're willing to go the illegal route, just drive without a license and hope for the best.


Fair enough. I admit that it is likely illegal to do that.

Is there a way for someone to *LEGALLY *get another license in another State/Country, and still be eligible for ED? That would be a solution if allowed.

The Justice system is going to give the OP their just desserts. I think the OP is looking for suggestions on how to make things better, not make things worse.


----------



## NagoC50 (Aug 17, 2009)

I am also a lawyer and although I am licensed in Ohio and W. Va. I don't practice DUI law -- but I'll toss in my 2 cents as MSY-MSP did to underscore his excellent thoughts and follow some of the other thoughts since MSY's post (with all of the same legal disclaimers and limitations that anything I post "is not advice"). 

First, follow your attorney's advice, to the letter. Because I can't imagine an attorney telling a client that it would okay to go to Germany to pick up a car while not possessing a driver's license (let alone being affirmatively ordered that you are not alllowed to possess a license) I would get your head around the fact that your ED is 99.9% not going to happen for now, at least with you driving the car. Check into alternatives for your spouse taking delivery and doing all the driving. You navigate, play with the iPod and camera. You've got some lemons here -- if you can go, it's time to make lemonade.

I would suspect that the Ohio authorities would take a very dim view of any attempt to obtain driving privileges in another state while on an Ohio suspension. No idea what could happen, I just know that I wouldn't want to find out if I were in your shoes. From my cursory look at Ohio DUI law, it appears that some of the penalites are scaled and in the Court's discretion. That discretion could be tilted against you if the Court would learn that you attempted to get a license in another jurisdiction or were tooling around the Alps in a new BMW while your Ohio license suspension was in place. 

Lastly, your attorney is there to protect your rights and make sure that you are treated fairly in the process. I don't do DUI work but I would think that pressing your luck and pursuing your ED right now may make your lawyer's job much more difficult. DUI is a frequent egregious error in judgment that many otherwise good people make. Be thankful that nobody was hurt. Get through the process as painlessly as you can and never do it again.


----------



## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

tlak77 said:


> :dunno:
> I can't believe this thread has some many responses. None of the EU countries allow driving without valid driver license. Counting on not being asked to show the prove of driver license is the same as counting on not getting DUI which driving drunk; not hard to guess what OP will do.
> OP has to be there to pick up the car, he can have second driver with him with valid driver license which need to be added to insurance.
> I'm not very judgmental person, but OP next time make sure you hit the wall while drunk you'll do favor for the rest of society.


+! IMO one of the most sensible posts. When the OP goes to court I hope they throw the book at him. There is no excuse for driving under the influence.
cheers
vern


----------



## zerbitini (Jan 31, 2010)

I won't get sanctimonious because I did some stupid stuff when I was young... but please DON'T make matters worse by driving in another state or country. There is a business analogy that "there are above the waterline decisions, and there are below the waterline decisions". You don't spend much time or energy on the former, but you better think hard about the latter. 

Your situation is a "below the waterline decision". If things go awry, you could be in serious trouble. 

If you can... bag the trip. Go again when you have your license back and you can ENJOY the driving experience. Good luck.


----------



## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

vern said:


> +! IMO one of the most sensible posts. When the OP goes to court I hope they throw the book at him. There is no excuse for driving under the influence.
> cheers
> vern


I don't think any of us know the details of the OP's DUI. What if he had 1 or 2 drinks, and was ever so slightly over the BA limit in his state - let's say 1% over the legal limit. There are plenty of drivers who are much safer at a fraction over the legal limit than half of the driving populous is when completely sober. Without knowing the full details of the OP's situation, nobody has a right to judge him. He was looking for advice with his ED plans, and nothing else.


----------



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

Whatever the case, we don't want to establish a new category of photo posted here, from inside a German jail.


----------



## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

zerbitini said:


> I won't get sanctimonious because I did some stupid stuff when I was young... but please DON'T make matters worse by driving in another state or country. There is a business analogy that "there are above the waterline decisions, and there are below the waterline decisions". You don't spend much time or energy on the former, but you better think hard about the latter.
> 
> Your situation is a "below the waterline decision". If things go awry, you could be in serious trouble.
> 
> If you can... bag the trip. Go again when you have your license back and you can ENJOY the driving experience. Good luck.


:stupid:

Being 5 weeks out, the car hasn't probably gone into production. Not sure if the PO is done, but you have sufficient reason to be able to cancel the ED. Not sure if you'll be eligible for direct shipment due to these extenuating circumstances.

Still, you also gotta deal with your insurance going through the roof upon redelivery. :yikes:

Reschedule for another time when you get this resolved. Of course, that's an IMO.


----------



## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

the J-Man;5252290. What if he had 1 or 2 drinks said:


> Tell that to the Judge when he goes to court. Good luck
> cheers
> vern


----------



## obmd1 (Jan 17, 2005)

chrischeung said:


> Fair enough. I admit that it is likely illegal to do that.
> 
> Is there a way for someone to *LEGALLY *get another license in another State/Country, and still be eligible for ED? That would be a solution if allowed.
> 
> The Justice system is going to give the OP their just desserts. I think the OP is looking for suggestions on how to make things better, not make things worse.


no

In order to obtain a license in a second state, without taking the whole permit/testing route, you need to show the first state's license, and surrender it. You can only be licensed to drive in one state at a time.


----------



## Vanos4:12PM (Apr 20, 2007)

I was asked at the time of signing paperwork at the Welt for the car to provide both my license and passport.


----------



## MSY-MSP (Aug 14, 2009)

CinANC said:


> I provided a copy of my license to my CA as part of the purchase process, and understood this was forwarded somewhere into the ED system. In Switzerland I was asked for my license and passport, as well as my car papers, in a border check entering from France.
> 
> An email from my wife this week, in Halifax on a business trip, converges with MST-MSP's comments re: Canada and US DUI's. A lady friend of my wife's flew to Halifax to stay with her a few days. Here is some of my wife's email to me the next day:
> 
> "She was delayed for 1 1/2 hours in customs because they discovered she had a DWI in the U.S. They first told her she had to leave in the morning - couldn't stay. Finally they fined her $200 and told her she couldn't rent a car."


I didn't mention this possibility in my earlier post. What happened is that Canadian Immigration detected the DUI inadmissability and sent her to the penalty box (side room) and continued the investigation. During this investigation the agents first were going to "deport" her from Canada on the first available flight which happened to be the next morning. However, realizing this the agents most likely decided to "waive" the inadmissabilty for this one time and offered her the $200 single entry TRP that covered this trip. (This is not common nor can it be counted on) In essence the agent used a little discretion on the inadmissability in this case as they probably had nowhere to house her for the night and the DUI was likely several years in the past (my guess would be in the 4-8 year range). However, I should note that even attempting to enter Canada with a DUI and not positively and proactively informing the officer of the DUI is a crime in Canada. (exception is if you have been rehabilitated) Further, she should know that she is flagged in the Canadian immigration system for life because of this and may need a TRP from now on. (depends on what the officers specifically told her)

The nature of the inadmissability in Canada comes from the fact that DUI can be a Federal Offense in Canada and not a Provinical (state) level offense at the inditable (sp) level as opposed to Summary level. I know that is confusing, but if DUI were only a provincal level offense or a summary offense then there would be no issue. (WRT to Canada)



NagoC50 said:


> I am also a lawyer and although I am licensed in Ohio and W. Va. I don't practice DUI law -- but I'll toss in my 2 cents as MSY-MSP did to underscore his excellent thoughts and follow some of the other thoughts since MSY's post (with all of the same legal disclaimers and limitations that anything I post "is not advice").
> 
> First, follow your attorney's advice, to the letter. Because I can't imagine an attorney telling a client that it would okay to go to Germany to pick up a car while not possessing a driver's license (let alone being affirmatively ordered that you are not alllowed to possess a license) I would get your head around the fact that your ED is 99.9% not going to happen for now, at least with you driving the car. Check into alternatives for your spouse taking delivery and doing all the driving. You navigate, play with the iPod and camera. You've got some lemons here -- if you can go, it's time to make lemonade.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree with this advice as well. You don't want to do anything whether in this country or in another country that the Ohio court could look at and question your sincerity or be seen as thumbing your nose at the court.

After giving this some additional thoughts over the evening, i would like to add the following comments

1) I would check with the court and make sure that the court is agreable to your going to Germany while the case is pending. Some courts and judges may not want you leaving the country while the case is pending. I would ask your attorney to get confirmation from the court that you may leave the country. Second the pending charges against you could make your reentry into the US less than pleasant. I cannot recall how quickly that stuff makes it to DHS/CBP databases, but if it shows as pending I know that can cause delays at immigration.

2) I would likely see if you could move the date of your ED out a couple of months. This way you would finish your adminstrative sentence on the license and then be able to fully enjoy your trip. If you cannot push out the ED (and the court has no objection to your travel) then simply do the 60 euro BMW takes the car to the drop off location for you. Also have BMW document the fact that you did not drive the car there. (This can come in handy if you are questioned either by the court or any probation officer)


----------



## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

vern said:


> +! IMO one of the most sensible posts. When the OP goes to court I hope they throw the book at him. There is no excuse for driving under the influence.
> cheers
> vern





vern said:


> Tell that to the Judge when he goes to court. Good luck
> cheers
> vern


:tsk:
No need to be judgmental.
You don't have the facts. It's absolutely the judge's job, not ours.

His question was very clear and simple: how to do ED given that his DL was confiscated and driving privileges suspended?
Simple answer: don't drive.
Performing an ED (taking delivery of a car) shouldn't be predicated on your ability to drive it, especially if you have a legally authorized driver with you at the time.


----------



## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

JSpira said:


> Whatever the case, we don't want to establish a new category of photo posted here, from inside a German jail.


 True. Although, if such photos were posted, I would gladly view them out of curiosity. :angel:


----------



## jjp335xi (Jun 10, 2010)

Hello all,

Thank you all for your responses, I have been quite busy sorting this and numerous things out, but I wanted to let you all know that I've been monitoring the thread closely and appreciate the advice and support (from most of you).

Those that took the time to post long messages and PM me, I'll respond soon. For everyone's knowledge, my lawyer is looking closely at the situation to see if my suspension can be knocked down to be reinstated before I go for the ED. I am also considering cancelling the ED and moving it to a couple months down the road if the suspension is lessened. Either way the situation sucks, and I'm aware I made a mistake.

Please continue with any advice and do know that I'm monitoring, I really appreciate your time. I'll update you all shortly, I'm supposed to meet with the lawyer Monday to discuss this in detail.

jjp


----------



## cinoh (May 15, 2007)

the J-Man said:


> True. Although, if such photos were posted, I would gladly view them out of curiosity. :angel:


A case of SCHADENFREUDE if ever I heard one!


----------



## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

cinoh said:


> A case of SCHADENFREUDE if ever I heard one!


 On the contrary, wanting to see photos of the inner workings of a German jail does not mean I would be enjoying the misery of the person posting such photos.


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

chrischeung said:


> Fair enough. I admit that it is likely illegal to do that.
> 
> Is there a way for someone to *LEGALLY *get another license in another State/Country, and still be eligible for ED? That would be a solution if allowed.


That's an interesting question. I think one can do that, but doubt the OP will be able to. At least not legally.

Another state won't work. Most of them ask for your license history and also proof of residence in the new state.

I hold valid US and UK licenses. As far as I know, the UK DVLA does not keep tabs on criminal records in the US or the status of my US license.

I could set up a residence back in the US, arrange for ED. Even if my GA DL was revoked, my UK driving license is valid in Germany (its an EU license after all) so I could still drive there legally. I'm not sure what would happen at the Welt if all I could provide was a passport and a UK license. (They'd have a fax of my Georgia license though)

To get UK driving license I had to mail off my passport/visa to the DVLA. Getting a UK resident visa isn't easy and can take months. On top of that, they do a criminal background check when you apply for a visa. And you have to pass the difficult UK driving tests. And the Ohio courts might not be happy if someone in the OPs situation applies for a visa...

Still there might be some EU country where this could be made to work. :dunno:


----------



## FrankAZ (Feb 19, 2009)

Andrew*Debbie said:


> That's an interesting question. I think one can do that, but doubt the OP will be able to. At least not legally.
> 
> Another state won't work. Most of them ask for your license history and also proof of residence in the new state.
> 
> ...


There may be country pairs where this might work. But, in my limited experience and the experience of people I know probably not. I'm actually surprised you have two licenses in your possession. In all the following cases I have first or close second hand knowledge of when you apply for a license in the destination country part of the process is to get you to surrender the origin country license. In almost every case I have eventually received a letter from the origin country's licensing authority acknowledging that the destination country authorities returned it. From my experience the 1 license per person rule is enforced well.

My personal experiences:

 UK to Germany
 Germany to UK
 UK to Canada
 Canada to UK
 UK to GA
 GA toAZ

Known experiences enforcing 1 license per person:

 Canada to UK (multiple examples)
 US to UK (multiple examples)
 UK to US (NJ, NY, AZ, MA, GA, CA)
 Australia to UK
 New Zealand to UK
 Australia to US (AZ)
 South Africa to US (NJ)

Yes, this is something we've talked over while having a beer or coffee. In all of the above the applicant had to surrender the prior license in order to receive the new license. On one occasion (UK -> GA) the person claimed they had lost the UK license and the GA authorities would not issue the GA license until the 'lost' UK license was reissued by the UK and then surrendered.

Doubtless individuals have contrary experiences since government employees administer this process, but the prevalence of this activity makes me believe that the international community is wise to this sort of dodge to keep going despite the confiscation of a license.

Frank.


----------



## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Pay my way over and I'll be your personal driver. I lived in Germany for 3 years, am 60 years old, never had a DUI or anything other than a single speeding ticket at 16. Have done 2 EDs in the last 3 years. When do we leave?:thumbup:


----------



## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

Another thought...is ED insurance even valid for an unlicensed driver? Even if you slip through the cracks at the Welt, you could find yourself in deep water if you injure someone else in an accident without insurance or a license in a foreign country, not to mention the economics of damage to your new BMW without insurance.


----------



## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

FrankAZ said:


> . I'm actually surprised you have two licenses in your possession. In all the following cases.


Getting a little off topic but....

The UK has reciprocal agreements in place with many countries but not the US. For example, Canadians can exchange their license for a restricted (automatic transmission only) UK license.

Americans go through this process:

Pickup a D1 form at the post office and mail it to the DVLA along with £50, a passport photo, a passport and a visa or other proof of legal residence in the UK. In about 3 weeks the DVLA sends back the passport and a provisional license. After passing the theory, hazard perception and practical driving exams, the DVLA will exchange the provisional license for a full license. Before taking the practical driving test you have to sign that you have lived in the UK for at least 185 days in the last 12 months. They can check this. Not sure if they do.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/NeedANewOrUpdatedLicence/DG_10012514

If we move back to the US, I'll surrender my GA license and keep the UK one.


----------



## dalekressin (Sep 3, 2008)

What a mess.
I was not asked for my DL at the Welt.
Doesn't pay to drink n drive anytime, anywhere.


----------



## erdoran (Feb 29, 2008)

Life is too short....my advice to OP is bag the ED and the new BMW until you see just what the fallout will be, unliess you have extremely deep pockets. As far as getting a license elsewhere so you can do the ED, that is a dumb idea. As others have said, if your court gets wind of it then it makes you look like a scofflaw. I can't comment on any legal penalties or implications, but common sense says that where the judge has discretion, if you did something stupid like that the judge would use his discretion AGAINST you. 

If you are so rich that the financial consequences of a DUI won't bother you, then just do the ED and have the car trucked from the Welt. That's completely legal. but ask ASAP about the no license thing so if it is a problem you can make the necessary changes, up to and including cancelling the trip. For that matter, why ask us? Ask BMW!


----------



## Kanuck (Feb 18, 2003)

MSY-MSP said:


> The nature of the inadmissability in Canada comes from the fact that DUI can be a Federal Offense in Canada and not a Provinical (state) level offense at the inditable (sp) level as opposed to Summary level. I know that is confusing, but if DUI were only a provincal level offense or a summary offense then there would be no issue. (WRT to Canada)


This is because Canadian criminal law is a federal matter (i.e., it is the same law throughout the country). It is a criminal offense to drive while impaired or to have a blood alcohol level above 80mg/100ml. But, the provinces regulate driver's licenses, and the various penalties that ensue if you violate, for example, the Ontario Highway Traffic Act. The penalties under the HTA can be worse than the penalties under the Federal Criminal Code.

But, none of this is relevant to the OP's question.

I would point out though that it is not that Ohio can necessarily regulate where you drive. But, other jurisdictions allow you to drive in their jurisdiction on the condition that you have a valid license from where you are coming from. If you don't meet the condition, then you can't legally drive there. This seems obvious to me.


----------



## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

With respect to Canada not admitting DUI offenders. This seems a bit asinine, no? I understand that the US shares criminal data with Canadian border officials. This is how they are able to screen incoming visitors for DUI's. However, I can all but guarantee you that other countries do not share such data. So, an American convicted of a DUI can not go to Canada, but a German with a DUI will probably sail right through the screening process?

Furthermore, I understand that if you DRIVE into Canada as a US citizen with a DUI, you will likely not be stopped, but if you FLY, the background check is much more extensive and you will be stopped. So, get a DUI and show up to Canada DRIVING your car and you get right in.


----------



## Kanuck (Feb 18, 2003)

the J-Man said:


> With respect to Canada not admitting DUI offenders. This seems a bit asinine, no?


I was not commenting on the wisdom or lack thereof of how Canada handles this, just trying to clarify how the law works (Federal versus Provincial). Yes, it can be inconsistent depending on how you arrive in Canada (fly versus drive). And, just because the Canadian Immigration authorities cannot check every single person trying to enter the country does not mean they should not check the ones they can.

But, this works both ways. Canada does not generally want to admit people into the country if they have committed what would be a criminal offense in Canada. The US does not either. There are many cases of Canadians being denied access to the US for what seem to be minor offenses in Canada.

Bottom line, having a criminal record is not good in either country.


----------



## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

the J-Man said:


> Furthermore, I understand that if you DRIVE into Canada as a US citizen with a DUI, you will likely not be stopped, but if you FLY, the background check is much more extensive and you will be stopped. So, get a DUI and show up to Canada DRIVING your car and you get right in.


Actually, they got that covered now. BEFORE, you could sail right through with a DL and nothing more. Now that the passports are required, it's a different matter.

I was in Buffalo a few months back and my buddies & I decided to go clubbing in Canada. At the border crossing, they discovered that one of the dudes had a DUI in TX 4 yrs ago and he was denied entry. They were even willing to let through a guy who forgot his passport but not the DUI guy.


----------



## rsc0711 (Jun 8, 2010)

To be legit while driving in Europe you are supposed to have an International Driver's License instead of a stateside driver's license. 
Not sure about the rules in each country, but most look the other way or allow you 30 days on a US license.

To get an International License:

http://www.aaa.com/vacation/idpc.html

If you still have a photocopy of your license you can mail in the photocopy, 2 passport photos, completed application, and $15 and you're done. They are all handwritten with an AAA stamp and your photo, AAA doesn't check any kind of database.

***International Licenses are not vailid in the country of issue = no driving in the USA


----------



## Gig103 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pretty sure your only avenue at this point is to cancel the order. Your CA will whine, but if you haven't paid yet then you can back away and explain that you have a DUI so you can't drive.


----------



## FrankAZ (Feb 19, 2009)

rsc0711 said:


> To be legit while driving in Europe you are supposed to have an International Driver's License instead of a stateside driver's license.
> Not sure about the rules in each country, but most look the other way or allow you 30 days on a US license.
> 
> ...
> ...


Almost completely wrong. The International Driver's Permit (IDP) is merely a translation document so that anyone having cause to inspect your driving license has something which verifies that the accompanying drivers license is valid and describes what kind of vehicles it covers in the reader's native language.

An IDP is not required (except in Austria).
An IDP is not a driving license.
An IDP has to be presented with a proper driving license, not instead of.
There is no such thing as an International Driving License.
AAA doesn't need to check a database because the IDP doesn't provide any driving privileges.

Frank.


----------



## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

rsc0711 said:


> To be legit while driving in Europe you are supposed to have an International Driver's License instead of a stateside driver's license.
> Not sure about the rules in each country, but most look the other way or allow you 30 days on a US license.
> 
> To get an International License:
> ...


 Not correct...see FrankAZ's post for accurate info


----------



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

Interestingly enough, the OP has not returned in 10 days.


----------



## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

JSpira said:


> Interestingly enough, the OP has not returned in 10 days.


:dunno:


----------



## jjp335xi (Jun 10, 2010)

Hello all,

As you may expect, things have been stressful for me and very busy as I work through paperwork, occupational privileges info, and everything else that normally goes on plus more (work, an upcoming minor surgery, etc.). "Interestingly enough, the OP has not been around in 10 days" is not entirely true - I've been reading the post every day but haven't had time to sit down and respond individually to all.

However, as I mentioned before, I sincerely appreciated all the advice and support, especially those experienced with the law that took the time to write longer posts about my situation. I actually printed those and took them to my lawyer for discussion, which helped us brainstorm ideas - so your time was not at all in vain - you were helping a future BMW owner!

And, I wanted to share the good news. The prosecutor/judge have agreed to stay my suspension until after my return from Europe. I'll, of course, face the music when I get back - but we've made it so I'll have a valid license for my ED and I can continue as planned. I got this news yesterday and literally jumped up and down.

I'll be sure to report on my ED, but the best news is that it's going forward and I'm going to get my new 335xi. Absolutely thrilled and have some faith left in the legal system, too.

Talk to you all soon and best regards.
JJP


----------



## German Expat (Sep 29, 2006)

When I dropped my car last week in Munich I did some idle chat during waiting for my Taxi. They told me at the drop off location that they do have US customers that don't even drive their car themselves at all and just have them pick up the car at the Welt.
The customer would fly in, do the pick up, enjoy the Welt, look at the car and have somebody from Drop Off drive the car up to their location and send it on their way to the US.

Not exactly what I would consider an ED experience but its an option for somebody in this predicament. Seems like some US customers don't even want to drive on German roads themselves.

Also I am sure you could ask Ralf to drive you car to the drop off as well. German insurance law allows other drivers.
The European Rail Road system is not too bad then for yourself to get around.
I did read though that you have solved your problem but dependent on your DUI the insurance rates might go through the roof.


----------



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

jjp335xi said:


> The prosecutor/judge have agreed to stay my suspension until after my return from Europe.


Congratulations. What do you think swayed them to allow this?


----------



## cruise_bone (Jun 6, 2007)

jjp335xi said:


> And, I wanted to share the good news. The prosecutor/judge have agreed to stay my suspension until after my return from Europe. I'll, of course, face the music when I get back - but we've made it so I'll have a valid license for my ED and I can continue as planned. I got this news yesterday and literally jumped up and down.


Congrats. I would suggest a celebratory today, but, maybe not such a good idea.

You will enjoy the ED experience immensely. Just remember to leave the driving to the person not drinking. The beer over there is pretty fantastic, so be careful.


----------



## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

JSpira said:


> Congratulations. What do you think swayed them to allow this?


he/she is owner of BMW 7


----------



## Norm37 (Jun 28, 2008)

jjp335xi said:


> Given this, my ED for my 335xi is July 21 - and I just got the confirmation email/production email a bit ago. My dealer has checked into the situation and said that all should be okay to take delivery - my license (copy) has already been sent to BMW.


Well in my opinion all is not ok. The copy of the licence your dealer sent to BMW is no longer valid.



> I'm very, very worried and if the worst case scenario plays out I don't know what I will do. Please assist.


You need to let the European Deliver Center and BMWNA know about your situation so you can find out all your options. Not just the dealer.

1) Use a designated driver.

2) Ship car by flatbed truck from the WELT to the drop off location Cost 60 Eruo.

3) Postpone or cancel Ed.

Etc.

Please don't even consider driving on a suspended licence.



> Thanks in advance.
> JJP


----------



## Brando384 (Apr 15, 2010)

Norm37 said:


> Well in my opinion all is not ok. The copy of the licence your dealer sent to BMW is no longer valid.
> 
> You need to let the European Deliver Center and BMWNA know about your situation so you can find out all your options. Not just the dealer.
> 
> ...


You must not have read the most recent posts, as the OP was given clearance by the courts to take ED on his car and face the suspension, etc. upon his return. Congrats to the OP!


----------



## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

good luck.

You know, I have had a number of clients who never had insurance problems, in Michigan.

The specific insurance companies involved were: Allstate, Citizens and Auto-Owners.

These particular companies failed to pick up on a DUI, and never bumped the rates.

They do not always update their records, so maybe he'll get lucky.

I had this happen with three separate people in the last two years, all had DUIs and in all three cases the insurer didn't bother to pull updated DMV records, and just kept charging the pre-DUI premium.

I wouldn't count on this, but its possible.


----------



## Norm37 (Jun 28, 2008)

Brando384 said:


> You must not have read the most recent posts, as the OP was given clearance by the courts to take ED on his car and face the suspension, etc. upon his return. Congrats to the OP!


Correct! I should have read all the replies before posting mine:tsk:

A :thumbup: for the OP


----------



## FrankAZ (Feb 19, 2009)

pilotman said:


> good luck.
> 
> You know, I have had a number of clients who never had insurance problems, in Michigan.
> 
> ...


Interesting. In general though if an insurer doesn't get automatically informed of a premium affecting event and the insured doesn't declare it at policy start or renewal mightn't there be an issue if a claim is made?

Worst case the insurer would claim they were misled and the policy is fraudulent. Better case is that the correct premium in calculated and the payout is pro-rated according to the ratio of premium paid vs. corrected premium.

Relying on the insurer never discovering the DUI, accident, or other violation seems short sighted and undermines the purpose of insurance. If you are essentially underinsured or uninsured, what is the point of the subterfuge?

(I ask because about 6 years ago I collected a speeding fine and after wresting briefly with my conscience chose to declare it at renewal. At the time I was content with my decision, but felt that 'everyone else' would have kept quiet and eventually (presuming actuaries are correct) my premiums would have had to rise to compensate).

Frank.


----------



## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

FrankAZ said:


> Interesting. In general though if an insurer doesn't get automatically informed of a premium affecting event and the insured doesn't declare it at policy start or renewal mightn't there be an issue if a claim is made?
> 
> Worst case the insurer would claim they were misled and the policy is fraudulent. Better case is that the correct premium in calculated and the payout is pro-rated according to the ratio of premium paid vs. corrected premium.
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure about this. Of course you have an affirmative duty to disclose information when you are renewing a policy, or applying for insurance.

I would have to review the policy language closely, there may be something in there that requires an insured to affirmatively notify the insurer of a DUI or similar incident.

But what if they don't? Very difficult for the insurer to pull coverage entirely, at best they MIGHT be able to charge higher premium retroactively.

I'm just saying, it has been my experience that these insurance companies do NOT seem to always pull new DMV records on existing policyholders every 6 months, 1 year or even 2 years.

You probably had to complete a form at renewal....thus you had to disclose it (in order to do the right thing, and legally).

My policy auto-renews, and I NEVER have to fill out a form....updating my record, saying that I have not had any undisclosed accidents, tickets etc...(Auto-Owners, in Michigan).


----------



## wmo168 (Mar 26, 2009)

Why don't you add your wife or gf as the second driver and have her drive in Europe... case solve also DID YOU already got the international driver license from AAA office? I got ticket during ED in Austria and the cops there look at both my license and international driver licence (AAA) one.


I would just do what I said and have someone drive the car.


----------



## adgrant (Aug 13, 2003)

FrankAZ said:


> There may be country pairs where this might work. But, in my limited experience and the experience of people I know probably not. I'm actually surprised you have two licenses in your possession. In all the following cases I have first or close second hand knowledge of when you apply for a license in the destination country part of the process is to get you to surrender the origin country license. In almost every case I have eventually received a letter from the origin country's licensing authority acknowledging that the destination country authorities returned it. From my experience the 1 license per person rule is enforced well.
> 
> My personal experiences:
> 
> ...


I too hold a US and a UK license. I got the US one by taking a road test in the US and the UK one by taking a road test in the UK. The process was largely the same in both countries, get learner's permit (required written test in the US), get driving lessons, take road test.

I have traded my US license in several times as I have moved from State to State. The UK one is valid until I am 70.


----------



## TeeZee (May 17, 2004)

a bit OT but my wife only held a learner permit in the UK when she moved here. She went to DMV to apply for a license, figuring she would get a US learner's permit. Apparently the clerk was so overwhelmed by the royal seal or whatever was on the English doc that she was given a US license straight away- without a written or practical test! Anytime I ever get any stick for my driving from the right hand seat, I just ask "remind me, which one of us has actually passed a road test?" Works every time!


----------



## mason (Jun 8, 2006)

TeeZee said:


> a bit OT but my wife only held a learner permit in the UK when she moved here. She went to DMV to apply for a license, figuring she would get a US learner's permit. Apparently the clerk was so overwhelmed by the royal seal or whatever was on the English doc that she was given a US license straight away- without a written or practical test! Anytime I ever get any stick for my driving from the right hand seat, I just ask "remind me, which one of us has actually passed a road test?" Works every time!


Just like a friend of ours, a postal office worker at the passport window told her that she could get a US passport because Canada is part of USA. :rofl:


----------

