# "Youngtimers" from the 70s & 80s anyone?



## Haaatschi (Oct 27, 2005)

I am posting this to check if there are more "Youngtimer" enthusiasts out there!

It really is a big movement in Germany (where I come from originally) right now. People in their 20s and 30s often buy these old cars from some pensioners that kept them like babies. Many of these cars were sooo uncool when we were kids (or we could not afford them) - now they only cost 2000 or 3000 bucks they have kind of a cult following. I am not that familiar with US family sedans of the 80s but imagine our kids start buying Camrys, Impalas, Accords, Explorers, Tahoes and Sonatas (or any current BMW for that matter) in 20 years and find it way cool to decorate them with Winnie the Pooh sun protectors from today, browse ebay for CDs from Celine Dion or Kelly Clarkson that they can use in these old stock CD radios. I know people who only listen to tapes from the 80s in their E30s ;-) And yet, it's not that snobby "oldtimer" (does that term exist in the US) crowd with their vintage cars that are worth 10s and 100s of thousands. If your youngtimer breaks - get another one. It's only a few thousand bucks - not a big loss. Dirt or daily wear and tear are acceptable and desired. We don't want to worship the car - we want to honor it by still using it. That's the spirit I enjoy so much.

I, for example, own a BMW 325 from 1987 - a car that I always dreamed about as a teenager. And I make a point of not giving it the high school kid treatment that many of these vehicles receive today (lowering, tuning, wide tires, loud exhaust). I keep it true to the original spec and the era it was built in.

It's an affordable and fun hobby. If there are more people with that passion around, one could think about joining forces and organizing excursions, "rallyes", monthly meetings and other fun stuff.

So if you are purposefully driving your BMW E21, E28, E30, E32 or any other from the 70s, 80s and early 90s just drop me a line if you think this is something for you. I'll see how it goes and start something if I hear from a few people. 

Haaatschi


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## racermat (Feb 22, 2004)

Hey,

What of the E3? I love driving my car, even though the creature comforts of 1976 are a far cry from today's standards. I am only 3 years older than my car. In fact, besides my truck, I only drive the 3.0, and my 71 240Z. Style (compared to today's mega-mass produced cookie cutter [made in same factory, only swapped badges] clones) back then was actually stylistic, IMHO. I think the 80s-90s and even 2000 models are way too boxy and ugly. The square lines of the 80/90 and the drooping lines of today don't appeal to me, I guess.
BTW, I only WISH this car was worth the 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars!!!


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

I could get into this, especialy since I really like german sedans from the 70s, 80s and early 90s (before they started trying to be cool). My faves are the e28, e34, e3, e30 and the Mercedes W 116 S-class, W123 E-class, W124 Eclass, and W126 S class. I'd have all of them if I could.


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## Just Bryce (Sep 23, 2005)

OK mines got the "High School Kid" treatment, but I bought it that way. When I was looking around I decided on this one because I always liked the boxy shape of the E30 and the body was pretty clean.


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## R2dmax (Apr 18, 2005)

robg said:


> I could get into this, especialy since I really like german sedans from the 70s, 80s and early 90s (before they started trying to be cool). My faves are the e28, e34, e3, e30 and the Mercedes W 116 S-class, W123 E-class, W124 Eclass, and W126 S class. I'd have all of them if I could.


I couldn't agree more. I guess I'm a youngtimer. I do like most BMWs through the year 2000, but I'm not exactly happy with the look of the latest models.

My 1st Bimmer was an e28 528e. I loved that car but ALWAYS wanted an e30 convertible. 
2nd Car: a greymarket 325i convertible of course! 
next e30 325e
then My 2nd Fav: e28 535is
next e30 325is
Now e32 735iL

Youngtimer? I say "YES"!


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## Orangefiv5 (Oct 27, 2005)

Youngtimer or not the e-30 is my favorite car of alltime to date. Pimped out or stock it has its own life no matter the options!


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## Haaatschi (Oct 27, 2005)

Awesome! Looks like there actually is a bunch of us out there. What do you guys think about joinin forces in some way and really organize something (meetings, excursions etc.)? That kind of stuff has taken off in my home country Germany quite a bit and it's way cool if there is a group of well-maintained Youngtimers cruising the highway or parking in front of a cool place. Below a few pictures my friends in Germany took on their excursions. 

























I have started my little humble blog on the subject and also a Yahoo! mailing list (if yous end a mail to it, everybody gets it) to facilitate some exchange. Lots of people join the list but so far it's been pretty quiet in terms of messages - I guess peopel just wait for each other to take the first step.

URLs:

My blog: http://youngtimer-cars.blogspot.com/
The Yahoo group/mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/youngclassics/

What do you guys think one could do to join forces?

Take care,

Tom


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

I think I've got you all beat. Look at my sig, below. The 3.0CS was a lovely car to own, and expensive to maintain in its perfect condition (and I sold it for $22,000, having bought it new in Santa Monica for $11,000 exactly in 1972), but it wasn't very sophisticated.

The new Bimmers are clearly the best. I've driven 5 decades of them, from my father's 1969 2800CS, to the cars listed below.

In terms of driving precision and stability, there is nothing on the road that can match the new Bimmers. The Z3 was fun but gutless (though it tramlined horribly), and the 630CS and 633CSi were the best of the under-powered, over-regulated, horrible automobiles that were being foisted on Americans in the last 70s and early 80s.

You can get misty-eyed about the old Bimmers, but there is nothing that comes close to the current cars (though the 1972-4 2002Tii was a lot of fun).


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## leedawg (Mar 17, 2005)

Malibubimmer said:


> I think I've got you all beat. Look at my sig, below. The 3.0CS was a lovely car to own, and expensive to maintain in its perfect condition (and I sold it for $22,000, having bought it new in Santa Monica for $11,000 exactly in 1972), but it wasn't very sophisticated.
> 
> The new Bimmers are clearly the best. I've driven 5 decades of them, from my father's 1969 2800CS, to the cars listed below.
> 
> ...


AGreed then again classic cars arent expected to drive like the ones of today. THat is why they arent being made any more and the ones of today are termed "NEW"  Thats progress. I love my 72 E3. Its a kick in the pants ot drive and still gets up and goes pretty good.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Haaatschi said:


> I am posting this to check if there are more "Youngtimer" enthusiasts out there!
> 
> It really is a big movement in Germany (where I come from originally) right now. People in their 20s and 30s often buy these old cars from some pensioners that kept them like babies. Many of these cars were sooo uncool when we were kids (or we could not afford them) - now they only cost 2000 or 3000 bucks they have kind of a cult following. I am not that familiar with US family sedans of the 80s but imagine our kids start buying Camrys, Impalas, Accords, Explorers, Tahoes and Sonatas (or any current BMW for that matter) in 20 years and find it way cool to decorate them with Winnie the Pooh sun protectors from today, browse ebay for CDs from Celine Dion or Kelly Clarkson that they can use in these old stock CD radios. I know people who only listen to tapes from the 80s in their E30s ;-) And yet, it's not that snobby "oldtimer" (does that term exist in the US) crowd with their vintage cars that are worth 10s and 100s of thousands. If your youngtimer breaks - get another one. It's only a few thousand bucks - not a big loss. Dirt or daily wear and tear are acceptable and desired. We don't want to worship the car - we want to honor it by still using it. That's the spirit I enjoy so much.
> 
> ...


After driving an 84 and a 2000 3 series back to back for a few years, I have to say: I hope I always can drive my E30. Fundamentaly they are very similar in driving dynamics. I still get the fealing that the E46 is just an extension/update to the E30. Honestly I dont see how one can truly appreciate one without driving the other. I imagine the fealings to be similar when driving the 2002s, 3.0, or whatever. I love the old M10 engines. They have little power, but are bulletproof. I seized one up in my younger days from overheating. I let it cool down added water, and the sucker started up. Granted it didnt last long beyond that, but still.


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## ///M Blitz (Oct 27, 2004)

Malibubimmer said:


> I think I've got you all beat. Look at my sig, below. The 3.0CS was a lovely car to own, and expensive to maintain in its perfect condition (and I sold it for $22,000, having bought it new in Santa Monica for $11,000 exactly in 1972), but it wasn't very sophisticated.
> 
> The new Bimmers are clearly the best. I've driven 5 decades of them, from my father's 1969 2800CS, to the cars listed below.
> 
> ...


I'm going to disagree with you.

The problem you have with the "classic" BMWs is that you owned every lame old BMW in the book. My 88 M6 will kick the crap out of your new 8 series, err 6 series. I've driven the 650 and you don't have the same relationship with the road, plus everything is governed for you; oh and my M6 it's good looking to boot unlike the new Banglelized BMWs. The new BMWs are dummied down for the masses.

My DINAN 750iL will not only kick the crap out of the new 7 series, but unlike the new ones is gorgeous to look at.

The only newer BMW that interests me was the Z8 because of its simple use of modern technology, so I bought one. The X3, well it's a daily driver.

No offense intended, just wanting to set the record straight.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

///M Blitz said:


> I'm going to disagree with you.
> 
> The problem you have with the "classic" BMWs is that you owned every lame old BMW in the book. My 88 M6 will kick the crap out of your new 8 series, err 6 series. I've driven the 650 and you don't have the same relationship with the road, plus everything is governed for you; oh and my M6 it's good looking to boot unlike the new Banglelized BMWs. The new BMWs are dummied down for the masses.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree w/ you on looks or road feel-- but comparing your Dinaned e38 to a stock e65 is a bit unfair. Still, the e38 truly is a beatiful sedan and the e65 is downright ugly.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

///M Blitz said:


> I'm going to disagree with you.
> 
> The problem you have with the "classic" BMWs is that you owned every lame old BMW in the book. My 88 M6 will kick the crap out of your new 8 series, err 6 series. I've driven the 650 and you don't have the same relationship with the road, plus everything is governed for you; oh and my M6 it's good looking to boot unlike the new Banglelized BMWs. The new BMWs are dummied down for the masses.
> 
> ...


 :rofl: So true. But the X3? what a POS IMO.


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## Harrypr (Mar 4, 2002)

Well, I guess that I qualify as a Youngtimer enthusiast myself. I currently own :

1976 2002 (Schwarz)
1983 320i (Schwarz)
1986 325 (Alpineweiss)
1987 MB 190E 2.3 (whatever the MB white color is named)

Just sold another 325, a 1987 in Burgundrot.

My only concession to "modern" cars is my Oxford Green 1997 528i, which I bought three weeks ago. Wasn't really looking for one, but the deal was too good to resist.

I am lucky because I get a company car (currently a 2005 Ford Escape XLT V6), so I can keep on buying and fixing up older cars!


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

///M Blitz said:


> I'm going to disagree with you.
> 
> The problem you have with the "classic" BMWs is that you owned every lame old BMW in the book. My 88 M6 will kick the crap out of your new 8 series, err 6 series. I've driven the 650 and you don't have the same relationship with the road, plus everything is governed for you; oh and my M6 it's good looking to boot unlike the new Banglelized BMWs. The new BMWs are dummied down for the masses.
> 
> ...


I heard the same :bs: in the ear;y 1970s from yourng turks just starting up the CCA. I felt I was not welcome. Still feel that way. And your prejudice is quite revealing. On the one hand you can't accept that the Bavaria and the 3.0CS were great cars in their time -- they were -- and yet you have a Z8, which you almost never drive, and your daily driver is an X3. There is something wrong with the picture you paint.


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## HGilmore (Oct 27, 2005)

///M Blitz said:


> I'm going to disagree with you.
> 
> The problem you have with the "classic" BMWs is that you owned every lame old BMW in the book. My 88 M6 will kick the crap out of your new 8 series, err 6 series. I've driven the 650 and you don't have the same relationship with the road, plus everything is governed for you; oh and my M6 it's good looking to boot unlike the new Banglelized BMWs. The new BMWs are dummied down for the masses.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head plus they're also dummied down for the badge seekers.


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## Bmwcat (Jul 30, 2004)

Does my '96 328IS qualify?  Completely stock, no I-drive or  NAV gear and fun to drive. And it always starts. Maybe a classic someday!


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

We need to see that old M6 on "Pinks" kick the **** out of a new 6. I owned a 6 series way back when and if the: Body hadn't rusted before my very eyes, the engine hadn't blown, the plastic hadn't morphed into wierd shapes etc. etc. etc....it was a very pretty car. C'mon now.


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## CSBM5 (Mar 10, 2004)

Malibubimmer said:


> I heard the same :bs: in the ear;y 1970s from yourng turks just starting up the CCA. I felt I was not welcome. Still feel that way. And your prejudice is quite revealing. On the one hand you can't accept that the Bavaria and the 3.0CS were great cars in their time -- they were -- and yet you have a Z8, which you almost never drive, and your daily driver is an X3. There is something wrong with the picture you paint.


Speaking of '88 M6 kicking the crap out of things...my Bavaria humiliated numerous E28 M5's and E24 M6's at Summit Point back in the late 1980's . Something about a properly setup suspension (springs, bars, shocks, Alpina bushings, negative camber, 8x16 wheels, Goodyear Gatorback S compound tires and later Yoko A-008R's, and a Korman monster motor with triple sidedrafts , etc.) in the old Bav that the new M car drivers at the time just had a hard time dealing with. 

It's kind of funny that I beat the E28 M5 to the E28 M5 look by about 8 years when I started modifying the Bav in 1980 with black trim and all . 

Chuck

P.S. I've been a CCA member since 1980, and I've never felt not welcome at any event, and I've had a wide range of BMWs over the many years.

P.S.S. The Bavaria's soul is alive and well deep in the bowels of my E39 M5 . :thumbup:


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

Here's a good Bavaria story (And why I don't do Concours anymore): I spent a week cleaning my ex's Diamond Black 325ix. The Saturday before our local car show a friend shows up with his not exactly pristine but very high mileaged Bavaria..."whatcha' doin he asked" (I was probably cleaning the insides of the bumpers). "Getting ready for the car show" I replied. "Hey, I think I'll do that too...can I borrow..." So he uses my cleaning stuff, drinks my beer, spends one hour on the thing and beats me.


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## ///M Blitz (Oct 27, 2004)

CSBM5 said:


> Speaking of '88 M6 kicking the crap out of things...my Bavaria humiliated numerous E28 M5's and E24 M6's at Summit Point back in the late 1980's . Something about a properly setup suspension (springs, bars, shocks, Alpina bushings, negative camber, 8x16 wheels, Goodyear Gatorback S compound tires and later Yoko A-008R's, and a Korman monster motor with triple sidedrafts , etc.) in the old Bav that the new M car drivers at the time just had a hard time dealing with.
> 
> It's kind of funny that I beat the E28 M5 to the E28 M5 look by about 8 years when I started modifying the Bav in 1980 with black trim and all .
> 
> ...


Nice story and undoubtedly true, but by your admission all you did was outspend the guys in the M5s and M6s in the suspension and performance goodies department, and apparently were a better driver to boot. But logically speaking, if you swapped cars you would then be spanking the guy with the Bavaria with your M5 or M6. So you see, it had little to do with the car and all to do you with you.

BTW, my M6 is indeed perfectly balanced and I know exactly what to do with it at the track. I doubt a lowly Bavaria would get anywhere near me.


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## CSBM5 (Mar 10, 2004)

///M Blitz said:


> Nice story and undoubtedly true, but by your admission all you did was outspend the guys in the M5s and M6s in the suspension and performance goodies department, and apparently were a better driver to boot. But logically speaking, if you swapped cars you would then be spanking the guy with the Bavaria with your M5 or M6. So you see, it had little to do with the car and all to do you with you.
> 
> BTW, my M6 is indeed perfectly balanced and I know exactly what to do with it at the track. I doubt a lowly Bavaria would get anywhere near me.


Well, I could turn 1:32's around Summit Point in the Bav on late 80's A-008R tires which is still a pretty decent time today...the only way an M6 could get close to those times is with suspension work, especially a lot more negative camber up front, and a bit of engine work too. A stock M6 wouldn't have a chance. The Bav would just power away from them on the straights back then.  Swapping cars wouldn't have helped that part, and unless the M6 had suspension mods, it wouldn't help to swap in the corners either. One thing the Bav had going for it was a 400+ pound weight advantage which is very hard to make up.

Anyway, those years are long past, and the E39 M5 is a lot more fun, especially with my mods on it. 

The point is that the Bavaria was an incredible platform given it was designed in the late 60's just like the E24/E28 is an outstanding platform too. I've got a long history with E28's too.  There is suprisingly a lot in common between the two platforms too.


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## ///M Blitz (Oct 27, 2004)

CSBM5 said:


> Well, I could turn 1:32's around Summit Point in the Bav on late 80's A-008R tires which is still a pretty decent time today...the only way an M6 could get close to those times is with suspension work, especially a lot more negative camber up front, and a bit of engine work too. A stock M6 wouldn't have a chance. The Bav would just power away from them on the straights back then.  Swapping cars wouldn't have helped that part, and unless the M6 had suspension mods, it wouldn't help to swap in the corners either. One thing the Bav had going for it was a 400+ pound weight advantage which is very hard to make up.
> 
> Anyway, those years are long past, and the E39 M5 is a lot more fun, especially with my mods on it.
> 
> The point is that the Bavaria was an incredible platform given it was designed in the late 60's just like the E24/E28 is an outstanding platform too. I've got a long history with E28's too.  There is suprisingly a lot in common between the two platforms too.


Again, all you did was spend more money on mods. I'll bet you that a stock M6 will run circles around a stock Bavaria around any track. My father in law had a stock Bavaria at about the time I bought my M6 in 1987 and the handling of the two cars was polar opposites in favor of the M6. Then again simple logic tells us that an ///M tuned high performance car will beat a family sedan if they are both stock almost every time.

You are comparing apples (M6) to kiwis (Bavaria), if you get my drift.

Also, since the M6 weights 3,570 lbs., which by today standards - say for instance compared to your M5 - is a lightweight, the Bavaria would have to weight just 3,170 lbs. to be 400 lbs. lighter. Let's just say I'm skeptical about a Bavaria weighting the same as a 320i.


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## CSBM5 (Mar 10, 2004)

///M Blitz said:


> Again, all you did was spend more money on mods. I'll bet you that a stock M6 will run circles around a stock Bavaria around any track. My father in law had a stock Bavaria at about the time I bought my M6 in 1987 and the handling of the two cars was polar opposites in favor of the M6. Then again simple logic tells us that an ///M tuned high performance car will beat a family sedan if they are both stock almost every time.
> 
> You are comparing apples (M6) to kiwis (Bavaria), if you get my drift.
> 
> Also, since the M6 weights 3,570 lbs., which by today standards - say for instance compared to your M5 - is a lightweight, the Bavaria would have to weight just 3,170 lbs. to be 400 lbs. lighter. Let's just say I'm skeptical about a Bavaria weighting the same as a 320i.


Hey Dan,

Oh yes, absolutely! Stock for stock, the Bavaria is a joke compared to a stock M6, but I thought it was pretty clear that wasn't my point since my car was heavily modified. I built what BMW built with the M5 many years later...a very quick, 4 door sedan with decent room and trunk space that handled very well. I went a bit further with the suspension though.  The stock Bav had a 19mm front sway bar...mine had a 28mm bar with plastic bushings and Korman's mount reinforcements (and considering the stiffness of a torsion spring varies with the 4th power of the diameter...lol), etc.

There's NO contest between a stock Bav or any car of that day with a stock E24 M6...just like there is NO contest with your M6 and my E39 M5 or your Z8.

Regarding weight...it's actually more than 400 lbs lighter I guess now that you show the M6 weight. The spec weight for the 72 Bav was right at 1400kg which is just a bit less than 3100 lbs.  The later E3 cars (1974 onward) had the big bumpers and other luxury stuff, and they weighed in around 3400 lbs. The 72 Bav though had no electric windows/locks/etc, no big bumpers and their chassis reinforcements, etc...

I'm not attempting to make any claim that the Bav was a better car...just that it was a lot of fun to play with the M's when they came out and have them walking up and asking me about the Bav after a track session was over. The Bav became well known in the CCA National Capital Chapter for being a track monster and also always winning FTD at the autocrosses. It was much harder to properly setup and modify a car back in those days than it is now. I was fortunate to meet Ray Korman at the right time. 

Speaking of Ray and mods...many years back now, I can remember when he built his first "major" M6 with 45mm Webers, head porting, hot cams, special headers, titantium rods, the whole works. What a monster that thing was, and it sounded about as sweet as any 6 cylinder BMW I've ever heard.

Also, the craziest thing just happened last night. I get an e-mail whose subject line is the VIN of my old Bavaria (I sold it in 1994 after 22 years in the family) along with a picture of the VIN tag. The e-mail said "I would like to speak with you" and had a phone number. I called the number and talked with the current owner who just bought the car. Unfortunately, it had been left sitting outside by the guy I sold it to for years and is in rougher shape (it was always garaged for 22 years). Oh well...

It's too bad you're on the west coast as I would love to see an M6 with 33k miles by the original owner.

Cheers,
Chuck

P.S. If you turn the clock back to 1971, I think most will admit that the Max Hoffman put together a great combination with the big engine and low optioned car to create the Bavaria. It was a sign of things to come, and that simple combination he spec'd out for BMW AG helped them really understand the US market. This was the beginning of the true 4-door performance sedan market.


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## ///M Blitz (Oct 27, 2004)

CSBM5 said:


> Hey Dan,
> 
> Oh yes, absolutely! Stock for stock, the Bavaria is a joke compared to a stock M6, but I thought it was pretty clear that wasn't my point since my car was heavily modified. I built what BMW built with the M5 many years later...a very quick, 4 door sedan with decent room and trunk space that handled very well. I went a bit further with the suspension though.  The stock Bav had a 19mm front sway bar...mine had a 28mm bar with plastic bushings and Korman's mount reinforcements (and considering the stiffness of a torsion spring varies with the 4th power of the diameter...lol), etc.
> 
> ...


Understood. I agree with just about everything you say.

BTW, if you want to see the M6 it was featured in the Nov. issue of BMW Car, along with all my cars. Both Barnes & Noble and Borders carry it. If you happen to be in either, I think the Nov. issue is still on the rack. Therein, they call it the "best M6 in the World." I could bore for hours, but they were pretty thorough in their description.

On a slightly different subject, the S62 in your M5 and my Z8 has got to be the best motor built by those crazy Bavarians. I have not yet driven the V-10 powered cars, but it's hard to imagine that motor being as smooth as the S62 with its near identical horsepower and torque. On paper the V-10 seems more peaky.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

CSBM5 said:


> If you turn the clock back to 1971, I think most will admit that the Max Hoffman put together a great combination with the big engine and low optioned car to create the Bavaria. It was a sign of things to come, and that simple combination he spec'd out for BMW AG helped them really understand the US market. This was the beginning of the true 4-door performance sedan market.


:stupid: I owned a 1971 Bavaria from 1971 to 1972. I agree completely. The best Bimmer I ever owned till the 650i.


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

Malibubimmer said:


> I heard the same :bs: in the ear;y 1970s from yourng turks just starting up the CCA. I felt I was not welcome. Still feel that way. And your prejudice is quite revealing. On the one hand you can't accept that the Bavaria and the 3.0CS were great cars in their time -- they were -- and yet you have a Z8, which you almost never drive, and your daily driver is an X3. There is something wrong with the picture you paint.


 :flipoff: you and your freaking picture... man has a point there... stop criticising again GRANDPA :rofl:


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