# Ditched RFT's - Happy!



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> I have never gotten 55k miles out of any tire on any car. I wish to god I could get that many miles out of tires but it never happens. I even try doing rotations every oil change and even alignments too ever oil change in hopes of abnormal wear not taking them out. Tried buying a wide array of brands and models too in hopes of getting to that sort of mileage out of tires.


Snipe, I sold my 1984 Jeep Cherokee (first year it came out in the smaller two door size wagon) with the original set of Goodyear Wrangler Tires (raised white letters). As I recall they were over 50k.:thumbup:

It can be done, just not in a sports car that can accelerate 0-60 in 6 secs and brake about the same time.:rofl:


----------



## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> But you run more than 4 tires in the lifetime of a car, don't you? I know I sure do. I am though surprised a spare tire costs $400 to get.


Many people lease their cars, or sell them before warranty end and replace the tires only once in their ownership of the car. $400 is about the price of 36 11 2 159 860 from BMW; you could go cheaper. You'd be hard-pressed to get a (full-size) wheel for less than $125, the tire to fit on it would cost about the same, and you have to buy a jack and lug wrench, too. Probably around $300?

BTW, we're getting a little away from my reply to 67BMW/2. My point is/was, his logic is faulty. It's fine that he decided to replace them with non-rft, but the reasons he gave are IMO invalid.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Snipe, I sold my 1984 Jeep Cherokee (first year it came out in the smaller two door size wagon) with the original set of Goodyear Wrangler Tires (raised white letters). As I recall they were over 50k.:thumbup:
> 
> It can be done, just not in a sports car that can accelerate 0-60 in 6 secs and brake about the same time.:rofl:


Or slow trucks or slow sedans and so on, I just never have accomplished this or if I did it was barely to that point. With that said though I have a friend with a Ranger that has 240k or so miles and he has only put 2 sets of tires on it in that time, so 3 total if you include the originals.



floydarogers said:


> Many people lease their cars, or sell them before warranty end and replace the tires only once in their ownership of the car. $400 is about the price of 36 11 2 159 860 from BMW; you could go cheaper. You'd be hard-pressed to get a (full-size) wheel for less than $125, the tire to fit on it would cost about the same, and you have to buy a jack and lug wrench, too. Probably around $300?
> 
> BTW, we're getting a little away from my reply to 67BMW/2. My point is/was, his logic is faulty. It's fine that he decided to replace them with non-rft, but the reasons he gave are IMO invalid.


In that case I'd not even be bothering worrying about tire selections but I probably have a different mindset than most people who lease cars.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Here's the cost to get my OEM wheels replaced by the dealer, all in with new tires, mount, blalnce, and front end alignment. They'll throw in a car wash!:rofl:

* The price for front tires 225-40r-18 bridgestone re050a rft is $359.00 each the rear tires are 255-35r-18 and are $426.00 each The alignment is $179.00 and 4 mounts,balance and stems are $153.00 for 4 tires.*

Adds up to a total of $1,902 + tax I assume.

I can get the same set of OEM RFTs less alignment installed on my car at my house for $1,379 with taxes.

I can get some top quality non-RFTs installed for about $800 plus the alignment, so say $900 all in. That would be half the price and I would expect those tires would last some 30% longer. This is a no brainer.:yikes:

You can fill up the trunk with slime with the $900 savings! Hell, you could just cary around a complete new set of four wheels in your trunk and back seat if they would fit!


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Here's the cost to get my OEM wheels replaced by the dealer, all in with new tires, mount, blalnce, and front end alignment. They'll throw in a car wash!:rofl:
> 
> * The price for front tires 225-40r-18 bridgestone re050a rft is $359.00 each the rear tires are 255-35r-18 and are $426.00 each The alignment is $179.00 and 4 mounts,balance and stems are $153.00 for 4 tires.*
> 
> ...


I do not quite understand the comparisons here. So you are comparing tire shop non RFT prices to BMW dealer RFT prices? Wouldn't the better method be to see how much RFT's are from a tire shop then see how much non-RFTs are from a tire shop? Dealer is going to be too much always, heck that alignment for $179 I bet is a one time deal? I can get one year alignment plans here in town for less than that which means I can take the car in any time I think the alignment needs to be done and it is free to me after the first charge.

No doubt RFTs will always be more but comparing probably the most expensive avenue to get them to what might be the cheapest avenue to non-RFTs does not seem like a logical way to make a decision on which tires to get. Now if you are just looking for some extreme to tell the wife and justify the switch then that would be a whole other story ......


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe,

I like to hear myself ramble.

Actually the same OEM RFT Tires installed by a mobile shop would be about $300-$400 less than the dealer.

The non-RFT is just a comparison of of that option to the dealer RFT option, which comes out at about 1/2 the price. Not apples and apples I agree.

But the $900 non-RFT vs the $1,500 RFT from mobile installer (with alignment elesewhere) is still a savings of some $600 per set of tires and I would expect the non-RFT to last approx 30% more miles, so an additional savings.

What is the chance of not having to change a flat tire in the middle of the night, in the cold rain worth to you? It would be very different to for each of us.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> What is the chance of not having to change a flat tire in the middle of the night, in the cold rain worth to you? It would be very different to for each of us.


I'd just call a tow truck if it were something I could not drive on and I had no spare to go to.

When I lived in northern Mississippi and drove my old 928 I got a flat tire somewhere between Memphis and Tupelo. I had a spare tire, heck I had an air compressor too, but for some reason the jack was not in the car. This was back before people had cell phones and not like car phones were all that common. So in the 100+ degree heat of northern MS I had to treck down the freeway to find where someone had a house nearby to then pay them so I could use their phone to then call for a tow truck out of Tupelo. 2-3 hours later I was back on the road with my spare tire on the car.

If I still had to do drives like that I'd probably stick to RFTs and possibly still have a spare. Since all my BMW driving is within civilization then running non-RFTs and no spare would not bother me. I drove a few cars around here that never had spare tires and if something happened it meant calling a tow truck if one did not find me first.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

OK, I joined the non-RFT club today!

Went with a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports, 255 rears and 235 fronts. They look very sticky but haven't broken them in yet.:thumbup:

Had my On Site Tire guy change out the OEM B/S RFTs this morning. Some photos!


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

After a brief drive around town, I can certainly tell these are a much smoother ride than the RFTs. Not having any comparison before the OEM RFTs, I definitely like the ride better with the non-RFTs.:thumbup:

I would add that the B/S RFTs lasted 32.5k and if there were a possibility of rotating them I think I could have easily gotten another 5k out of them. Still some meat on the rears and the right front. Left front was heavily worn on the outside diameter. I'll have to get an alignment check now.

The Michelin PSS has a 300 treadwear while the OEM B/S RFTs had like a 140 or 160, so they should last longer as well.

The Tech had a hard time getting the wheels of the hubs. They were basically rusted on. He had to use a large rubber mallet to beat them off with. Can't imagine trying to get these off on the side of the road. I put some WD40 to hopefully keep them clean.

He also struggled to get the RFTs off the rims. Very tight fit.

So now I have to decide if I'll just get a tire repair kit or spring for some sort of doughnut tire and jack.

Recommendations?:dunno:


----------



## Wardman (Aug 27, 2011)

Congrats!

My choice was the Continental Mobility Kit.

http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/detail.jsp?ID=38

Enjoy the "new" ride!


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Wardman said:


> Congrats!
> 
> My choice was the Continental Mobility Kit.
> 
> ...


Thanks, also was looking at the Slime kits. Same concept. I will have to do one of these for piece of mind.


----------



## zach0726 (Oct 23, 2011)

I put 4 Michelin Pilot Super Sports (non-RTFs) on my Houston-based non-sport package 335d for $730, installed and rotated at Discount Tire. Discount was (and maybe still is) selling the tires at a huge discount as they are "summers." Tire rack rates the tire incredibly high in both thier in-house data and customer-reported data. 

I have about 3000 miles on the tires.

Yes, it turns like its welded to the pavement. Yes, they are great in rain. Yes, it rides MUCH better. Yes, they are incredibly quiet - even on oceans of concrete. But the best thing is that at 80-90mph the car feels so much more stable and planted. No jitters over pavement seams, or other imperfections.

A real downside of the PSSs are treadwear rating 30k miles - if all 4 tires are the same size. Less if running staggered.

A plus is that there's no need to buy AAA or gunk-up a rim with slime - Michelin will tow your d for you if you get a flat and don't have a spare. Up to 150 miles.


----------



## A8540TDI (Jan 2, 2011)

Flyingman, glad to see you got the Pilots, they are a great tire and I think you are going to enjoy your d even more. I still can't get over how much more I enjoy my car since the RFT's are gone. BTW, I've now got a few tanks of fuel used after the wheel swap. Mileage is up by 3 mpg; maybe it's the cooler weather, but time will tell if the lighter wheels make a real difference.

The best cure for the wheels sticking to the hubs is a very light coating of anti seize grease. I've been using it every time when removing wheels and have never had one stick since. Learned this after destroying a wheel bearing by beating on a stuck wheel with a mallet (not a BMW).

On the spare issue, after consideration, I bought a donut kit with jack and lug tool. I'm planning to make some longer trips and felt the goo solution is too risky as many times the nature of a flat is beyond goo's abilities. I also carry a small compressor, because the TPMS will give warning before the tire goes completely flat, giving the opportunity to inflate, allowing one to continue and change or repair under selected circumstances. 

It seems unwise that BMW offers no alternatives to RFT tires, something that makes it very unlikely I will choose another BMW as my next car.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

zach0726 said:


> I put 4 Michelin Pilot Super Sports (non-RTFs) on my Houston-based non-sport package 335d for $730, installed and rotated at Discount Tire. Discount was (and maybe still is) selling the tires at a huge discount as they are "summers." Tire rack rates the tire incredibly high in both thier in-house data and customer-reported data.
> 
> I have about 3000 miles on the tires.
> 
> ...


Zach, the wear rating on the Michelin PSS is a 300 vs the B/S RFT's that were like a 160. I realize this could be a bit subjective, as they are compared against a "standard" tire and individual test results will vary, but theoretically they should last longer, by quite a bit.

I got 32.5k out of the RFTs (and could have gone further but for one tire worn more) and I would fully expect to get at least 35 -40k out of the PSS.

I'll still opt for a slime kit, I'm not waiting for some tow truck to show up unless I have a blow out.

I certainly didn't get the great deal you got!:thumbup:


----------



## FiremanLU706 (Dec 25, 2011)

zach0726 said:


> I put 4 Michelin Pilot Super Sports (non-RTFs) on my Houston-based non-sport package 335d for $730, installed and rotated at Discount Tire. Discount was (and maybe still is) selling the tires at a huge discount as they are "summers." Tire rack rates the tire incredibly high in both thier in-house data and customer-reported data.
> 
> That's a great price! I've been checking prices online & $1K was the best I could find, that was looking on DT also!


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I've scoured the web and the price for my size tires are in the $240 - $274 range each. A lot more at any of the tire stores.

I got them installed at my home for $1226 with installation, balance, disposal, and tax so about $300/tire.

This was considerably less than the RFTs.

Time will tell.

I increased my front width size from 225 to 235. Supposedly to help even out my wear a bit, if that helps. Just have a tad more contact surface.

By the way, the rear rims are 9" wide and the front are 8.5". I wanted to increase the rears to 265 but that was not recommended due to rim width of 9".

The closest Discount Tire is in orlando, about 3 1/2 hour drive from me. No idea why they haven't opened up in the Miami area. I used to love them when I was in Houston.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Most people on here seem to post up a ton less than 32.5k miles out of their factory tires on sports package cars. Is Ms. Daisy in your back seat?


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Most people on here seem to post up a ton less than 32.5k miles out of their factory tires on sports package cars. Is Ms. Daisy in your back seat?


Well, I don't drive like an old lady that's for sure. My roads are generally pretty good, mostly highway. I drive agressively but don't spin tires or screetch to a stop, or make radical turns. I'm usually the one working my way through the pack and pushing the speed limit.

I can't explain other than I do keep tire pressure in check. If you could rotate staggered wheels I am sure I could have gotten another 5k out of these.

Assuming I don't drastically change my driving style, I would expect the 300AA rated Michelin PSS tires to well outlast the 140A or 160A rated B/S OEM RFTs. Am I missing something?:dunno:


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Are tire ratings these days actually regulated through a central agency of some sort? I remember when I was on the old 928 mailing list people would bring up tire ratings and other "more smart" people would shoot them down with some mumbo jumbo that showed that just because one tire is say 150 and another is 300 does not mean the 300 is better at all. Not saying that is the case today or with your tire selection but I will say that if you bought high speed rated replacement tires that I'd be amazed if you got 65k miles on them and if you do then I am switching to those on everything I own.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Are tire ratings these days actually regulated through a central agency of some sort? I remember when I was on the old 928 mailing list people would bring up tire ratings and other "more smart" people would shoot them down with some mumbo jumbo that showed that just because one tire is say 150 and another is 300 does not mean the 300 is better at all. Not saying that is the case today or with your tire selection but I will say that if you bought high speed rated replacement tires that I'd be amazed if you got 65k miles on them and if you do then I am switching to those on everything I own.


Apparently the DOT (NHTSA) regulates these ratings now. They can't advertise higher than their tests showed but can certainly down rate them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treadwear_rating

Any summer performance tire that lasts 30k or more is doing just fine in my book.

About best tire lifetime I've ever achieved was 50k+ on some Michelin M+S tires on my 1984 Jeep Cherokee. Sold the car with the original tires still on them!:yikes:


----------



## A8540TDI (Jan 2, 2011)

There is a uniform standard set by the UTQG, baseline is 100 and the wear for rating is based on a specific set of tests. There is an interesting read on the Tirerack site:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=48

Seems the rating are a very rough guide, in other words, "your experience may vary".


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Did the Highway commute today on the Michelin Pilot Super Sports. A big difference in handling. Tracking is all but gone and no more teeth pounding bumps. Still breaking tires in so taking it easy, but don't regret the change to non-RFTs!:thumbup:


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Did your car track since day one?


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Pretty much. I thought it was normal for this car given the staggered wheels. It seems to be much less now. Perhaps the wider front helped a bit. The hard RFT wheels really could be jarring on even a small bump, like those reflectors in the road. Much softer now.

I know new tires will always feel better than worn out ones. Hard to really compare unless you side by side comparison, same cars with the different tires.

I did try out someones 335d with 17in wheels, non-staggered, and to me it felt like I was in a boat compared to the RFTs staggered, very soft and mushy, definitely didn't like that set up for my feel.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Find it surprising they'd sell cars new that track, I'd honestly not buy a car if it did that during a test drive and they could not correct it.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

The tracking is most pronounced on the grooved highways or whenever there is an edge or split in the road.

Like everything, and every car, one gets used to driving it that way, adapts, and then accepts that as normal.:thumbup:

I know the tracking is well documented on this and other websites, so shouldnt come as a surprise.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I just my car 50 miles and zero tracking. But it is not a sports package car so that might be why I find this surprising.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

There's tracking and steering. Tracking is when it wants to pull one way or the other, other than just go straight.

With the RFT's I would have to consciously keep the wheel working back and forth to keep the car straight, as it would start to drift left or right as I went over or along the grooves or seems in the highway. It just seemed more pronounced.

I suspect all cars does this to a degree.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I know what tracking is, my mustang did it really badly until I replaced tierod ends a couple weeks ago along with a ******* alignment and tire rotation. If my BMW does it then it is very minimal because I tried to notice it on my way to the dealer today and noticed nothing.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

It's also a function of the roads you're on.

Maybe it is confused with tramlining?:dunno:

All I know is I prefer the ride of the non-RFTs.:thumbup:

Here's to hoping I don't get a flat any time soon.:beerchug:

Have to pass by local auto shop and pick up a slime kit.


----------



## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Just get a AAA membership. 

I do not doubt that they ride much better. I just doubt that same improvement to ride quality would be thought of as good with a non sports package car.


----------



## zach0726 (Oct 23, 2011)

Flyingman said:


> Zach, the wear rating on the Michelin PSS is a 300 vs the B/S RFT's that were like a 160. I realize this could be a bit subjective, as they are compared against a "standard" tire and individual test results will vary, but theoretically they should last longer, by quite a bit.
> 
> I certainly didn't get the great deal you got!:thumbup:


I hope so.....I'm really happy with them!


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Me too!


----------



## diesel fan123 (Nov 25, 2011)

*two worn out, two not*

Hi,
Lots of great info here, I rotated the wheels today and now find that I must confront the tire 
conundrum. I have owned the car for about two months.

This was the first time the wheels had been removed since new, (27k miles on it now)
Encountered the "stuck to the hub w/rust" issue. 
Cleaned off the rust and gave the exposed metal a coat of Boeshield.

http://boeshield.com/

Anyway, the inside edges of the rears are down past the wear blocks.
Fronts have very little wear.

So I guess I have to pay the ransom $547 for two new Continental SSR's to maintain
compatibility with the two good tires.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x257/fish1_07/continental_tire.jpg

If the previous owner had rotated the tires, the wear would be the same on all four,
and I could justify putting on some Michelins. Next time for sure!


----------



## A8540TDI (Jan 2, 2011)

Here is a photo of my spare tire solution. Yes, it does take up trunk space, but I'm not unduly inconvenienced by it (rarely carry 4 people on trips and have fold down seats). I now feel comfortable with a spare and am still smiling every time I drive on the non runflats!


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks for the foto Rob, looks pretty darn neat to me.

My car is a commuter for the most part so I never use the trunk for much anyway.

Where did you get the cargo net?


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

In regards to tire rotation, I've researched the Michelin website and they don't say anything against cross rotating steel belted radials, etc... If you have directional tires you have to keep them on same side. If you have RFT's with directional tread and staggered, there is nothing you can do.

The Michelin Super Sports are not dircetional to my surprise, so in my staggered set up I can cross them to the other side, which should help squeeze out a few more miles with them.

I suppose the very first days of steel belted radials crossing them was frowned upon. I heard the steel belt would work looses and fall apart as it is normally seated in once used some miles.


----------



## A8540TDI (Jan 2, 2011)

Tito, the cargo net was salvaged from an Audi and I purchased "D" rings to attach it. The D rings are easy to install, I used short stainless steel machine screws with nuts and lock washers. This required drilling 4 small holes in the removable trunk floor, but, they are practically invisible if you remove the D rings. 

I bought the spare from Bimmerzone, IIRC it was $350 including the tote bag and shipping. The kit includes: wheel, tire, jack, lug tool and wheel chock.


----------



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

The spare tire is certainly the best way to go, especially if you have the extra space and are uncomfortable otherwise.

Wish I had some netting to hold things down back there. They have tie downs in the rear near the trunk lid, one either side.


----------



## A8540TDI (Jan 2, 2011)

I have another net and you are welcome to it! Can bring to our next meeting if you want it. We should be able to secure it using the tiedowns present. My 2011 had bupkis in the way of tiedowns so I had to improvise, but, I've heard the earlier models had them.


----------

