# Thinking of going from a 330i -> S60R 6MT opinions?



## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

well, my 330 is almost due for replacement.
Contenders were:
Audi S4 6MT
330i ZHP
Volvo S60R 6MT

the S4 eliminated itself by price and reliability issues.

I test drove an S60R 5AT yesterday and was surprised. power wasnt great (they detune the AT to keep the tranny from grenading itself), but handling was great. The active suspension went from full soft (comfort) to rock hard (Advanced) with the press of a button. taking a high speed sweeper, it felt glued to the pavement, almost no body roll. steering is a little lighter than my 330, but not bad at all. braking was excellent, good modulation and no fade ( 13" brembos)
What makes it hard is Volvo's current lease program and the deal the dealer is willing to do for me. MSRP of 43,500, cap cost at almost invoice. money factor of 0.00013 (no, i didnt add an extra zero by mistake). expressed as an apr, its almost exactly 1% APR, which is even better than the finance rates.
a 0 down, 36month, 15K a year lease is going to run me ~$470 a month.

opinions? i'm torn.


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## nads12345 (Apr 18, 2004)

think obut this...its a fricken volvo...ur gopign from a beauty to a beast. that car is nasty


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

not quite as bad as you say...









(ok, that is the EVOLVE concept car, but the SP on the S60R looks nice and agressive...)


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## nads12345 (Apr 18, 2004)

i just dont like it...it looks like a wanan be s4 w/that nasty volvo grill


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

And, come on... that's an Evolve-tuned car. It makes like 400 to 500 hp, plus other mods.

I drove the S60R MT shortly before driving the 330... I liked the 330 a lot better even though the 330 is a little slower in a straight line. 

I thought the Volvo's handling and steering were numb. The clutch had a non-linear feel to the pedal travel. No thanks.

I did like the rest of the car a lot. And it's not bad for the $$ at all.

But, I've also heard of issues with that nifty computer-controlled suspension, and long-term, I don't think I'd want to deal with it. But for a lease, it might be fine.

Drive a MT and you should see.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

racerdave said:


> And, come on... that's an Evolve-tuned car. It makes like 400 to 500 hp, plus other mods.
> 
> I drove the S60R MT shortly before driving the 330... I liked the 330 a lot better even though the 330 is a little slower in a straight line.
> 
> ...


good point about the computer controlled wizardry...I wouldnt buy a car with that much just waiting to go wrong in the long term, but for a lease, i figure thats what the warranty is for.
steering feel was ok in my tastes. i suspect part of it is the PZero Rossos they spec the car with. when the dealer gets a 6MT in stock, i'll see if i can give that a whirl.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I drove the new S40 T5 at the Volvo event, and didn't really like it, though i wanted to, cause it's such a gorgeous car, and I like Volvo interiors. But it's so numb - steering was actually decent, but you feel nothing and hear nothing of what's going on. 
I like the S60R, I think it looks great, and has awesome seats (if they're the same as the V70 R). If you like the way it drives, go for it at that price! But drive a 330 ZHP first.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

This is a quote from Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson comparing the S60R to the M3 (perhaps not perfectly fair, considering you have a 330i, but here's his quote anyway)...



> So, the combination of four wheel drive and two very clever traction control systems make this a safe, stylish, likable but slightly boring, medium speed cruiser. A rival for the BMW M3? I don't think so.


The tone of their whole test was pretty negative. The video where they test the S60R was up on the net at one point, but now it's gone.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

PhilH said:


> This is a quote from Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson comparing the S60R to the M3 (perhaps not perfectly fair, considering you have a 330i, but here's his quote anyway)...
> 
> The tone of their whole test was pretty negative. The video where they test the S60R was up on the net at one point, but now it's gone.


I like the British magazines, they really tell you what they like and don't like, and don't mince words. US magazines are just trying to suck up to their advertisers, so they love every car. They don't give a damn about your $1/month magazine subscription - the car companies are heavily subsidizing their existance.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> I like the British magazines, they really tell you what they like and don't like, and don't mince words. US magazines are just trying to suck up to their advertisers, so they love every car.


Generally speaking, I agree. Road & Track is now almost as bad as Motor Trend. They have nothing bad to say about even the worst car. Car & Driver will let you know in a very subtle way if they don't like a car. As they don't have much advertising, www.edmunds.com is actually pretty good at telling you what's good and what's not, except that the quality of the writers they employ may leave something to be desired.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

in my mind an M3 is an M3... next car after either the S60R or the 330iZHP. . 

its more coming down to S60R vs 330i ZHP...
the seats in the S60R were more comfortable than the ones in my SP 330i. alot more support, and frankly, this surprised me, since i had the SP seats as my standard(for a performance daily driver). exterior looks, the 330i SHPwins by a little, but with the SP on the S60R, i think i could be happy.
The bmw voodoo steering and handling are making this decision very difficult. now if i was in the market for a 5 series, the decision would be made for me. hope that bangle doesnt make the next gen M3/4 hideous... servotronic steering and all that other gizmo and gadgetry are slowly killing the edge BMW had over the competition. handling is the only thing thats making me really pause. take that away, and whats left?


I did notice that about the S60, its really quiet. even at WOT, it was silent compared to my 330i (intake and all). 

as for the steering, i would say its between the illfated ultimate parking machine rack and the 2.8 turn lock to lock heavy steering on my 330. closer to the 330 than the bad bmw rack.

sadly, most of the dealers in my area think the ZHP is some limited edition, mark-it-up as high as you can option.


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## umkirkp4 (Jan 1, 2004)

*I test drove an S60R*

I test drove one recently and found that while it felt like a bigger car than a 330, it didn't actually have that much more room inside for passengers. I was a bit nervous backing it into a parking space. I also found the handling in anything other than "Advanced" quite numb, and the ride is much harsher than a BMW when in "Advanced". Finally, the turning circle was HUGE. I believe this is mentioned in virtually every review I have read for the car as well. I literally couldn't park it in a spot front first in one go at a nearby parking lot. That is a big day-to-day issue. My wife liked it more than I did, but we both liked the 330xi better.
Good luck with your choice!


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Larry Webster from C&D said the same thing about S60R vs 330xi, umkirk. The 330 is a more involving driver's car, even if it's slower.

The seats are outstanding -- my wife has a vanilla V70 and even those seats are quite good despite not being enthusiast seats. Decent lateral support and they're great for long-distance travel.

But I also agree with umkirk in that there really isn't much more interior room in the S60's than in the E46's. On paper it looks like more. But in reality, it's not much more if at all. People tend to knock the E46 for being not too roomy in the back, but I think it's better than most think.


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## Xyrium (Apr 4, 2004)

Ok, I'm not going to disparage any of the cars, as they all have their own strengths. I liek the Volvo the least however, and that's only a personal bias due to the appearance and history of their vehicles. Have you considered trying out a G35? I think in the end, you'll come back to BMW, unless you simply had an atrocious experience with yours. The 330 is a fantastic car. Good luck either way, they all seem like good choices, though I think the Audi is far from the 330 price range isn't it?.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Yeah, there are a lot of us who would like to get "in" to a 330, not out of one.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

Xyrium said:


> Ok, I'm not going to disparage any of the cars, as they all have their own strengths. I liek the Volvo the least however, and that's only a personal bias due to the appearance and history of their vehicles. Have you considered trying out a G35? I think in the end, you'll come back to BMW, unless you simply had an atrocious experience with yours. The 330 is a fantastic car. Good luck either way, they all seem like good choices, though I think the Audi is far from the 330 price range isn't it?.


I'm actually giving my brother my 330i. And I wouldnt do it if I had any issues with BMW, or the 330i in general.
My family has had a long history with Volvo, my father has had 6 of them over the past 20 years. mostly trouble free, and our dealing with the dealership have been positive. same salesman for the entire time, he started out as just a salesperson and has worked his way up to being the general manager of the dealership.
My only misgivings with BMW are the post sales experience with the service dept at Life Quality BMW. That left a really sour taste in my mouth. Even with a friend that works for BMWNA around to hammer through what i needed done, it still made me never want to go to my dealer. After switching to BMW of manhattan, i couldnt be happier with the service.

On a purely financial basis and raw performance basis, the S60R wins. 
but when it comes to the driving dynamics, its not a BMW. It has its pluses over the 330i SP and its negatives. one of the things i was looking for this time around was AWD and more power. If they made the ZHP for the XI, then this would be a non issue.

As for the Audi S4, its miles apart from the 330 and S60R $ wise, but I see them in the same boat. if the Audi blew me away, then i would happily pay the premium for it. but it doesnt.

I guess one way to make up my mind for sure would be to see if i can borrow an S60R for a day long test drive. and test drive the ZHP if i can find one.
Thanks for your all your opinions, and keep them coming, esp if you have test driven both the S60R and the ZHP.


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## SizzlerMA (Sep 23, 2003)

I was in the same boat some months back and chose the 330i ZHP over the S60R and I'm glad I did.

First, the S60R has THE WORST clutch known to man. It has almost no uptake for the first 2/3 of its travel, then the engine suddenly engages. I've been driving stick for 9 years, and even so, with the S60R clutch, found it difficult to park, inch forward, etc., due to the awful clutch.

I wasn't that impressed by the active suspension. Didn't feel much difference between the three modes.

The S60R has a HUGE turn radius. Tough to do a 3-pt turn on a Boston street . . .

I did like the S60R's power though.  While it didn't feel as much quicker off the line as its horsepower advantage over the 330i ZHP might lead one to expect it to, it did feel quicker at highway speeds, e.g., 70-90.

I'd go with the 330i ZHP if I were you, but both are nice cars.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## rdollie (Aug 6, 2003)

The clutch in the Volvo S60R needs about 1,500 miles to come into its own. Until then it's performance orientation makes it a tricky somewhat heavy clutch to modulate. 
The engine itself needs the better part of 10,000 miles to properly wear in (not the same as break in.) Until then you will have a hard time getting to 60 in a time any better than the quoted 5.4 seconds (unless you want to really abuse the clutch.)

I test drove all of these cars and none are perfect. However, for the money, the S60R is a no-brainer. It's got all the goodies including the Ohlins developed active chassis, the only AWD system that distributes power based on acceleration, really good low-end flat torque curve with 300 hp, a turbo which can be easily chipped for 350+ hp, proper 6-speed, 13" 4-pot Brembos, etc. Considering you can buy one with leather and bi-xenons for just over $34k through Volvo's Overseas Delivery program (and that includes airfare for two, first night hotel, insurance, shipping, no destination charge in U.S., etc.) it's the performance bargain in the market place right now.

If I were back in the market (I bought back in December) I would definitely end up with a S60R at this point. Give me another 2 years and it would be the new M4 but for now I just don't see much else that could fit my needs and work for the occassional autocross.

Thanks.

-rollie
[email protected]



SizzlerMA said:


> I was in the same boat some months back and chose the 330i ZHP over the S60R and I'm glad I did.
> 
> First, the S60R has THE WORST clutch known to man. It has almost no uptake for the first 2/3 of its travel, then the engine suddenly engages. I've been driving stick for 9 years, and even so, with the S60R clutch, found it difficult to park, inch forward, etc., due to the awful clutch.
> 
> ...


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

I think I read that the S40 T5 has the same clutch as the S60R? 
At the Volvo event, I and pretty much everyone stalled the damn thing at least once - the combination of totally quiet engine and exhaust, and lifeless clutch pedal made amateurs out of all of us. 

Why not wait for an S40 R? It would be smaller, great looking, and probably better handling than the S60.


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## Xyrium (Apr 4, 2004)

Hrmm, feature for feature, it sure seems that the S60r beats a 330xi. Hrmm, I wonder how I missed this car when considering a new vehicle a month ago or so. Looks like you've lined up a nice set of cars for your choices.


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