# Mobil 1 LL-04 oil on sale at Pep Boys



## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

BMW's marketing relationship with Castrol is well known. That's why they mention that brand by name and sell it exclusively at dealerships. But it doesn't mean that is the only LL04 oil approved for use by BMW. The spec defines the parameters an oil needs to meet to be labeled as LL04.

Nearly every major oil manufacturer has an LL04 approved oil.
An internet search quickly found this example:
http://dicogsa.com/certificados/Det-BMW.pdf
Notice the letter is from BMW...

another one auf Deutsch:
http://www.techmax.ca/images/INEO-MC3-SAE-5W-30-BMW.jpg

from Motul:
http://www.worldpac.com/pdfs/motul_8100_x-clean+_5w-30_bmw_ll-04_approval.pdf

you get the picture.

Are you convinced yet, ard?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

listerone said:


> We'll take your inclusion of the link to the pdf as an acknowledgement of having been incorrect in your earlier assertion.


Uh, did you actually read the link?!?

The link is to the text I posted- unlike some who think a telephone conversation is 'proof', I actually post links to the proof.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

d geek said:


> BMW's marketing relationship with Castrol is well known. That's why they mention that brand by name and sell it exclusively at dealerships. But it doesn't mean that is the only LL04 oil approved for use by BMW. The spec defines the parameters an oil needs to meet to be labeled as LL04.
> 
> Nearly every major oil manufacturer has an LL04 approved oil.


But NOWHERE does BMW state "All LL04 oils are approved for oil changes"

I agree this is a marketing arrangement, but you cannot get around the black and white text: BMW only has approved Castrol SLX OE pro in the usa for diesels. Everything else is for 'top off'

A


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

d geek said:


> You are a very stubborn person. :dunno:


The self admitted curmudgeon,it would appear,doesn't appreciate that I (and very possibly you as well) read the pdf linked to in Post #18...particularly pages 2 & 8.

I'm out of here...this is getting tedious.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

ard seems to have misquoted the book and left out a very important word!

Here is a copy & paste from that document in post #18:


> The X5 xDrive35d's engine oil is different than
> the BMW gasoline engines. Use only "low-ash"
> fully synthetic oils meeting BMW's long-life
> rating LL-04. *One *such oil is Castrol SLX
> Professional OE SAE 5W-30 (Castrol #06070).


The inclusion of the work "One" should certainly be read to mean there are others...


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## dnaer (Jan 13, 2011)

Just in case you missed this deal, Pep Boys has another coupon for Mobil 1 ESP for $7.00/quart. Not quite as good a deal but it is good until 2/28/13.


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## digitaldav (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for the coupon.. Picked up 10qts. of Mobil 1 5W30 ESP (LL-04 compliant) and 2 fram filters.


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## digitaldav (Dec 3, 2010)

dnaer said:


> Just in case you missed this deal, Pep Boys has another coupon for Mobil 1 ESP for $7.00/quart. Not quite as good a deal but it is good until 2/28/13.


Where is this coupon? I would like to pick up a few more since our "d's" take more than the 5 qts I got with the oil change coupon.


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## dnaer (Jan 13, 2011)

digitaldav said:


> Where is this coupon? I would like to pick up a few more since our "d's" take more than the 5 qts I got with the oil change coupon.


It is on Pep Boys site under the savings icon


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

dnaer said:


> Just in case you missed this deal, Pep Boys has another coupon for Mobil 1 ESP for $7.00/quart. Not quite as good a deal but it is good until 2/28/13.


This is still more than I pay for the Castrol SLX from the dealer with my BMWCCA discount.


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## digitaldav (Dec 3, 2010)

dnaer said:


> It is on Pep Boys site under the savings icon


Got it.. Thanks


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## kungpao (Oct 10, 2012)

no one mentioned the PDF in post #20. Is that legit?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

kungpao said:


> no one mentioned the PDF in post #20. Is that legit?


I'm sure it was correct at the time it was published (footer of the document says it was copyrighted by BMW AG). No telling if its been updated since then or if its purpose is to list EVERY oil that meets the LL-04 spec.


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## gulfcoastbeemer (Feb 17, 2013)

I purchased Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 (LL-04) from an outfit in Ohio: http://avlube.com

The stuff they distribute comes in a one liter bottle.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

d geek said:


> ard seems to have misquoted the book and left out a very important word!
> 
> Here is a copy & paste from that document in post #18:
> 
> The inclusion of the work "One" *should certainly be read* to mean there are others...


I didnt misquote. I still stand by the accuracy of my post and the quote. You simply chose some other text.

I agree "one such" means there MAY in fact other oils that meet LL specs. It does not mean that any and all such oils are approved.

I know my stance on reading of this legal document is hard for some to digest- but when one is able to sway bluebee, that should cause people to pause.

Finally, I am switching to M1 ESP with the next change, as I am out of BMW warranty- just saw this on a perusal of old oil threads....


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

ard said:


> I didnt misquote. I still stand by the accuracy of my post and the quote. You simply chose some other text.
> 
> I agree "one such" means there MAY in fact other oils that meet LL specs. It does not mean that any and all such oils are approved.
> 
> ...


Having a Mercedes spec on the oil bottle doesn't make it an official "approved" oil by Mercedes? There would need to be a list of such oils published by Mercedes, no?

I would prefer an oil that has little to no chance of breaking down and vaporizing, as a possible contributor to CBU. As I recall, Castrol was one of the first brands to call their type III (made from mineral oil) base stock "synthetic" while Mobil and others were still making type IV (made from ethyl alcohol etc.) synthetics. Nowadays, I don't know who makes what....

PL


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Pierre Louis said:


> Having a Mercedes spec on the oil bottle doesn't make it an official "approved" oil by Mercedes? There would need to be a list of such oils published by Mercedes, no?
> 
> I would prefer an oil that has little to no chance of breaking down and vaporizing, as a possible contributor to CBU. As I recall, Castrol was one of the first brands to call their type III (made from mineral oil) base stock "synthetic" while Mobil and others were still making type IV (made from ethyl alcohol etc.) synthetics. Nowadays, I don't know who makes what....
> 
> PL


I am not familiar with Mercedes specs. If the mercedes spec is a complete specification on the oil, in terms of something other than just "LL" ( long life, or how long it can go) then perhaps the MB spec is adequate ....


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Here is a BMW document that lists all of the oils meeting LL04 at the time it was printed (12/2006):
http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=701830

I'm not aware of such a list from BMW here in the States, but I believe this list should put the discussion to bed about the use of any brand LL04 oil. The same of course applies to MB229.51


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

d geek said:


> , but I believe this list should put the discussion to bed about the use of any brand LL04 oil. T


Hardly

Any LL04 will be fine. Just not approved by BMW in the USA.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

ard said:


> Hardly
> 
> Any LL04 will be fine. Just not approved by BMW in the USA.


Unless you have something in writing from BMWUSA that clearly states that the ONLY LL04 oil approved for use in US BMW diesels is Castrol's (and I don't mean your own convoluted interpretation of the owner's manual), then I will challenge you every time. We can't allow disinformation to be spread around this subforum.

Let me ask you this: Why would a motor oil company go through the hassle and expense of getting their product certified as BMW LL04 (or MB 229.51 or VW 507) if the product could only be used a liter at a time as top-off oil?

Please provide that info from BMWUSA that contradicts that of BMW AG I shared above, as well as any rationale that would explain such a contradiction, and I will go around and delete or edit my posts. Thanks.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Here is a letter from BMW to Bardahl approving one of their products for BMW LL04 usage:
http://www.bardahl-ap.com/pdfs/oem-approvals/Approval-BMW-LL-04.pdf


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

FWIW:
I contacted Mobil via http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Home/Contact_Us.aspx
Here is the transcript of our emails:
_*
> I am a auto enthusiast forum moderator and am trying to resolve a dispute 
regarding BMW oil specifications. The question is this: Would any oil that meets 
BMW LL04 be approved for use in their modern diesels here in the USA, or can 
they restrict it to one oil manufacturer? Is BMW LL04 a comprehensive 
specification, or does it simply designate that the oil can be used for extended 
drain periods?

>From: Mobilproducts <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, Sep 30, 2014 9:20 am
Subject: Re: Warranty issues

Thank you for your inquiry.
I am not sure of all of the specifics for the LL 04 approval, 
but I can say that our ESP Formula 5w-30 carries that approval from BMW.

-MJ

>Thanks for the prompt reply. Is your ESP 5w-30 approved for a complete drain and refill in a BMW LL04 application, or just as a top-off oil? In other words, are there any restrictions on this oil in the BMW LL04 application?

thanks again
-Xxx

>There are no restrictions.
Thank you for contacting ExxonMobil. 
If you have further questions you may contact 1-800-ASK-MOBIL.
*_
-MJ


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

What would be the point of listing approved oils if they can only be used for a top up? Is there any car manufacturer on the planet willing to say that their engines burn so much oil that they need to make a list of approved top up oils?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Hoooper said:


> What would be the point of listing approved oils if they can only be used for a top up? Is there any car manufacturer on the planet willing to say that their engines burn so much oil that they need to make a list of approved top up oils?


:thumbup: excellent point


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## totitan (May 11, 2013)

ard said:


> Hardly
> 
> Any LL04 will be fine. Just not approved by BMW in the USA.


"Don't confuse me with the facts because my mind is made up"


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Hoooper said:


> What would be the point of listing approved oils if they can only be used for a top up? Is there any car manufacturer on the planet willing to say that their engines burn so much oil that they need to make a list of approved top up oils?


It is a legal issue.

Pursuant to Moss Magnussen a manufacturer (anything, not just cars) cannot REQUIRE you to use an branded accessory or maintenance material unless they can PROVE it is required for your car to function.

So this leads you to "BMW should just tell you what oils meet there spec", correct?

and if they didnt- if they said "you can only use BMW oil" then BMW would have to pay. Right?

BMW DOES PAY FOR OIL. They cover maintenance up to 50k. So they CAN in fact recommend only BMW oil.

Furthermore, they dont want to have to give away top off oil. So they have created a separate spec for top off, to allow you to use non BMW oil and avoid a M-M violation.

Only in the USA.

ROW has entirely different specs.

Does this make ANY engineering sense? Nope. It is driven by lawyers. There are many oils that are as good as or better than BMW oil...my point is reading the document using structured comprehension (like a lawyer) and NOT casually with "what they ought to say' will result in this conclusion.


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

Starting 1 January 2015, BMW NA oil supplier will be Shell instead of Castrol. All dealers in NA will be using Shell products instead of Castrol.

I do my own oil change. I get the cheapest LL04 spec oil. I have used the following brands: Castrol, Valvoline, Mobil, Lubro-Moly and Valvoline


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

ard said:


> It is a legal issue.
> 
> Pursuant to Moss Magnussen a manufacturer (anything, not just cars) cannot REQUIRE you to use an branded accessory or maintenance material unless they can PROVE it is required for your car to function.
> 
> ...


There is not a separate spec for top off. The only spec is LL04.
Get back to us when you have a response from BMW stating that Castrol is the only LL04 oil approved for a complete oil change.

What is the "separate spec" for the top-off oil called?
What are the "entirely different specs" used in the ROW called?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

montr said:


> Starting 1 January 2015, BMW NA oil supplier will be Shell instead of Castrol. All dealers in NA will be using Shell products instead of Castrol.


Thanks for sharing that. Further proof that Castrol is not the only oil suitable for BMWs.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

ard said:


> It is a legal issue.
> 
> Pursuant to Moss Magnussen a manufacturer (anything, not just cars) cannot REQUIRE you to use an branded accessory or maintenance material unless they can PROVE it is required for your car to function.
> 
> ...


So, after 50k miles or 5 years, what oils are "approved" for a complete fill?


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## totitan (May 11, 2013)

Liqui Moly - Longtime High Tech - BMW LL-04 5W30 - 5L jug regular price at Napa is $41.99. I think its a great deal and Napa is everywhwere so it is easy to find


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

Pep Boys website sucks. I'd get the liquimoly from Napa I was doing an oil change, but the dealer is still handling that for me under the maintenance plan. The main reason for the ll04 spec in these BMW vehicles is the low ash requirement to attempt preserving all the emissions crap south of the exhaust valves.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

*Its clear as mud....*

"BMW NA will require continued use of Castrol's BMW designated oils in order to remain eligible for warranty and maintenance reimbursement costs."

i.e. per Henry Ford: "You can have any color as long as it is black."

So if anyone uses an LL04 oil that is not Castrol, they lose eligibility to be reimbursed for any warranty work, CPO, extended, or otherwise.

How is this NOT limiting our choices to one brand??? Must be lost in the translation from German, eh!?

PL

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=467401&d=1412188990


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Pierre Louis said:


> "BMW NA will require continued use of Castrol's BMW designated oils in order to remain eligible for warranty and maintenance reimbursement costs."
> 
> i.e. per Henry Ford: "You can have any color as long as it is black."
> 
> ...


Consider the target audience of the letter: The Dealerships.

Since BMW has the marketing arrangement with BP/Castrol, the dealership service departments are required to use that product during the term of the agreement. When the new agreement begins they will be required to use a Shell product so they can be reimbursed for warranty work.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

d geek said:


> Consider the target audience of the letter: The Dealerships.
> 
> Since BMW has the marketing arrangement with BP/Castrol, the dealership service departments are required to use that product during the term of the agreement. When the new agreement begins they will be required to use a Shell product so they can be reimbursed for warranty work.


OK, so you think this is to the dealers.

I'm the dealer and I find out that the owner of the CPO or extended warranty'd car used a different brand LL04 than Castrol. So you are saying that the directive, as written, can be ignored.

I don't find this point of view represented, but understand that what you are saying "should" be the way it is. I also feel its likely the person who wrote it/translated it wasn't very good at English.

PL


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm saying you as a dealer are not allowed to put any oil but Castrol into the engine. Until 1/1/2015. Then you will only be allowed to stock Shell products.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

d geek said:


> I'm saying you as a dealer are not allowed to put any oil but Castrol into the engine. Until 1/1/2015. Then you will only be allowed to stock Shell products.


Yes, of course. But what BMW is saying can be interpreted in other ways. Sloppy English.

I think that it's good that BMW insists on a particular brand at the dealership, don't get me wrong. I've been to dealerships of other brands that had a barrel of engine oil they picked up wholesale for use in their oil changes. The SA didn't even know what brand was being used and it certainly didn't seem they were that interested in the specs. "Oil is oil" and synthetic wasn't even considered....

PL


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

There is a rather extensive list of approved LL-O4 oils shown on this other website from 2011.

I can't vouch for it's validity but it appears authentic. It appears there are plenty of available options out there.

But then again, what does our owners manual say? That would be my starting point in this debate.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478346


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> ... what does our owners manual say? That would be my starting point in this debate.
> 
> http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478346


See posts 18 & 26 above. :thumbup:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

The 3 Series owner manual has a section on page 222 that indicates when to add oil and what oils to be used. They do weasel word it a bit with "Your Service Center can advise on which engine oils have been approved by the manufacturer of your vehicle", and they "Prefer BMW Longlife-04" and the approved SAE Viscosity classes, and "BMW recommends Castrol".

They even advise that if you cant obtain an approved oil you can add up to 1 quart of API SM or higher, whatever that is?

I can agree it is a rather confusing message probably to try and keep the customer coming back to them exclusively.

I doubt seriously BMW would be able to discern if you had added a non "BMW" oil. They appear to put the gas engine oils in the diesel engines on ocassion as reported elsewhere on this forum.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

And to add a bit more confusion here is another interesting article:

http://www.quirkyuncle.com/2013/09/12/diy-choosing-the-correct-motor-oil-for-your-bmw/


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> The 3 Series owner manual has a section on page 222 that indicates when to add oil and what oils to be used. They do weasel word it a bit with "Your Service Center can advise on which engine oils have been approved by the manufacturer of your vehicle", and they "Prefer BMW Longlife-04" and the approved SAE Viscosity classes, and "BMW recommends Castrol".
> 
> They even advise that if you cant obtain an approved oil you can add up to 1 quart of API SM or higher, whatever that is?
> 
> ...


Thanks for providing that wording from your manual, FM. Note the plural of oil being used.

I would never add anything but a diesel rated oil to a 'd. These oils are able to suspend soot. So instead of API SM (the S stands for spark ignition aka gasser) they should have stated API Cx-4 (the C stands for compression ignition aka diesel) for a top off oil.

I would keep my car far from dealers who put gasser oil (BMW LL01) in diesels :yikes:


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Flyingman said:


> I doubt seriously BMW would be able to discern if you had added a non "BMW" oil. They appear to put the gas engine oils in the diesel engines on ocassion as reported elsewhere on this forum.


True, but if they ask for DIY receipts, it should at least say LL04 on the bottle...

I like to change my own oil so that I KNOW it was the right stuff.

Can't tell whether its type III or IV, but its likely the Mobil 1 is type IV and the Castrol is type III.

PL


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

d geek said:


> I would keep my car far from dealers who put gasser oil (BMW LL01) in diesels :yikes:


Yes, but its hard to tell. When I first started using the local dealer, I investigated the Mercedes side and was not convinced they stocked any diesel rated oil for my CDI, not that I would have had them change it at the huge amount they charged.....

The BMW dealer did not have the oil specs accessible - they didn't allow anyone into the mechanics' area....

PL


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

So, in conclusion::dunno:

1. Let the dealer worry about this by going to them exclusively to change and top off your oil?

2. Buy your oil at the BMW Dealer and add yourself?

3. Buy only high quality oils that are of the correct SAE weight, and LL-04 approved and are most importantly Low Ash?

Can anyone provide a list of those oils that fall into category 3 above?

Thus far I have followed Option 1 exclusively as regards oil changes, but Option 3 for ocassional top-offs.

I'm not too concerned about it.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

By the way, this is the oil I have used to top off between oil changes:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.aspx

Sounds safe to use to me.:thumbup:


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> ...
> 3. Buy only high quality oils that are of the correct SAE weight, and LL-04 approved and are most importantly Low Ash?
> 
> Can anyone provide a list of those oils that fall into category 3 above?


LL-04 spec is low-ash, LL-01 isn't.

old lists:
http://www.europeancarweb.com/news/epcp_0811_oe_approved_car_oils/viewall.html
http://www.auto-treff.com/bmw/vb/showthread.php?postid=1197010#post1197010


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> By the way, this is the oil I have used to top off between oil changes:
> 
> http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.aspx
> 
> Sounds safe to use to me.:thumbup:


It is $12.79/quart at Pepboys.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

And just what does this video try to show?:dunno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Tc-YkJRxk

Don't use the Castrol Oil Approved by BMW but use the BMW Oil made by Castrol!:yikes:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Here is the spec sheet on the Castrol Edge Professional.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

And here is the spec sheet for a Motul Oil that is LL-04 compliant.

Not sure about availability in US.

It is interesting that the recommend not to mix oils that are not LL-04. Common sense to me.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

ard said:


> I didnt misquote. I still stand by the accuracy of my post and the quote. You simply chose some other text....


For the record, I did not "choose" an alternative text. I quoted directly from the link in ard's post#18, quoted in its entirety below:



ard said:


> And just for completeness, this is the total of BMWs recommendation for a diesel:
> 
> _All 2012 model year X5 xDrive35d vehicles are
> factory-filled with a different BMW High
> ...


emphasis in above post is mine to highlight the link. See page 2 of that link for the text I copied and pasted in post #26.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Good site that explains some of the OEM oil specification mystery.

http://www.oilspecifications.org/bmw.php


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

d geek said:


> For the record, I did not "choose" an alternative text. I quoted directly from the link in ard's post#18, quoted in its entirety below:
> 
> emphasis in above post is mine to highlight the link. See page 2 of that link for the text I copied and pasted in post #26.


Looks to me that any LL-04 should be OK so long as you have the right Viscosity range. I believe we are getting 5W-30 but that usually depends on your local operating temps.

Clearly either the BMW oil or the Castrol SLX Professional are good to go as clearly stated.

They refer to a list but dont provide it.:dunno:


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Flyingman said:


> It is $12.79/quart at Pepboys.


I just paid $8.82/L from amazon ($8.35/qt) for a box of 12L shipped. Oil changes are never a surprise occurrence, youve got 13k miles to prepare for the next one so buying online isnt an issue.


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## totitan (May 11, 2013)

Hoooper said:


> I just paid $8.82/L from amazon ($8.35/qt) for a box of 12L shipped. Oil changes are never a surprise occurrence, youve got 13k miles to prepare for the next one so buying online isnt an issue.


After my AAA/Napa discount German made LiquiMoly 5w-30 long life hi tech LL-04 was only $37.10 for a 5 liter jug. That's only $7.42 per litre. I think that is best combination of quality and price available for our cars


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