# Insurance and track use (not a repost!)



## David Keogh (Feb 25, 2003)

This has been discussed before, but I haven't seen specific details, IIRC...

I just confirmed that Progressive does not cover any driving event on a track, regardless of it being a training event.

It makes sense to be upfront with your insurance company *before* you happen to damage your car on the track, to make sure you will be covered if the worst happens.

So with that in mind, has anyone specifically verified with their insurance company (anonymously or not) that driving training events on a track are covered? 

PM me if you don't want to post publicly.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

David Keogh said:


> *This has been discussed before, but I haven't seen specific details, IIRC...
> 
> I just confirmed that Progressive does not cover any driving event on a track, regardless of it being a training event.*


Your first problem is that you have Progressive. As someone who knows and have clients in the insurance/bodyshop biz, Progressive is one of the bottom tier joints that are OK if you have a Toyota Tercel, NOT if it's a bimmer that we are talking about.:thumbdwn:

I hate to break this to you, but you get what you paid for, and with these high risk tier ones like Progressive, Mercury, Infinity, you will be sorry when something happens to your car.:thumbdwn: :violent:

And don't give me this, "they paid out promptly." Of course they do, they want to cut you a lowball check and have you cash it so that you can't hold them liable. A good shop won't know how much damage is to your car until they really tear it down. And let me tell ya, these bottom tier insurance joints HATE, HATE, supplements. Half the time they will cut it down, the other half they will jsut plain not pay it.

Your only alternative is to find a good, first tier insurance for your car that will also do track events. And yes, that means the big name AAA, Liberty Mutual, AIG, etc.

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

Your policy governs what is excluded..you need to read it very closely. I subscribe to the school of 'don't ask, don't tell' when it comes to this issue. IMO, you risk not getting your insurance renewed if you spook the company with your questions. It also seems that most companies will not give you anything in writing on this topic...why should they....they don't want to encourage you to engage in risky behavior that could cost them money. And other companies will tell you....well we will cover you for one or two events...now your policy has been modified and you need to change insurance companies. The few incidents that I have witnessed at Tracquest events have all been covered...including a 17 year old girl that barrel rolled her 1 week old new car at Buttonwillow. Other cars covered were an Audi TT and an M Roadster with SC and lots of track mods.

Again, read the policy and as Stuka says, stick with a top company.


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## GalBimmer (Jul 7, 2002)

I'm lucky to get to chat with lots of students at the track and I've asked this question many times. The most common response is 'You get one.' Like the others said, these are from the top-dollar insurance companies. I do know that the insurance companies can find out ~very easily~ if you were tracking and sometimes folks get busted.

For what it's worth, at our events we usually have brochures for track insurance from companies that specialize in this niche. It's becoming much more common but I've never heard details concerning price.

All that said, I've never heard of anyone buying it.


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

StahlGrauM3, Emission actually got a letter confirming coverage from his insurance company or broker - don't know what company he is insured through, though.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

Raffi said:


> *StahlGrauM3, Emission actually got a letter confirming coverage from his insurance company or broker - don't know what company he is insured through, though. *


Yea, I read that on another board as well and he's the only one I've heard succeeding...most others have gotten the responses that I mentioned. And he may live to regret asking for the letter if the insurance company decides not to renew him. Have you asked your Company?


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## 4WDrift (Dec 14, 2002)

I think I saw a post by Todd Serota of www.tracquest.com on www.rennlist.com about driver's school and competition coverages, policies being not much more than 100-300 per event, if you really want to be safe if you're going to drive at the edge.


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

GalBimmer said:


> *
> For what it's worth, at our events we usually have brochures for track insurance from companies that specialize in this niche. It's becoming much more common but I've never heard details concerning price.
> *


Do you happen to remember (or be able to dig up) names? I've been considdering this since MA makes it very difficult to get DEs covered. Knowing my luck no one will want to cover a MA car.

As a side note, does anyone know if any of the "best" insurers offer coverage in MA?


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## 4WDrift (Dec 14, 2002)

Oh wow, as a side note, read this thread and links. Summary, instructors shouldn't volunteer to drive students' cars; instead take students in your own car.
http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001235
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=510210&page=1


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## GalBimmer (Jul 7, 2002)

cenotaph said:


> *Do you happen to remember (or be able to dig up) names? I've been considdering this since MA makes it very difficult to get DEs covered. Knowing my luck no one will want to cover a MA car.
> 
> As a side note, does anyone know if any of the "best" insurers offer coverage in MA? *


I'll be glad to find out. Give me a couple of days...


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

StahlGrauM3 said:


> *Have you asked your Company? *


No, but the policy does not exclude track coverage, so I left it at that.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

Raffi said:


> *No, but the policy does not exclude track coverage, so I left it at that. *


Yeap, same here


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Here's the text from the exclusion cluase for my policy:

*Body injury or property damage resulting from the ownership, maintenance or use of a vehicle when used in prepartion for any prearranged of organized racing, speed, demolition or stunting contest or activity, or for the event itself.*

What do you think?

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

Stuka said:


> *Here's the text from the exclusion cluase for my policy:
> 
> Body injury or property damage resulting from the ownership, maintenance or use of a vehicle when used in prepartion for any prearranged of organized racing, speed, demolition or stunting contest or activity, or for the event itself.
> 
> ...


You should be fine, as you're neither racing nor participating in a speed or demolition contest at the CCA events - though with you, anytime you drive, it might be considered a demolition contest anyway! :angel:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Raffi said:


> *You should be fine, as you're neither racing nor participating in a speed or demolition contest at the CCA events - though with you, anytime you drive, it might be considered a demolition contest anyway! :angel:   *


:flipoff: :angel:

Just because I curbed my rear passenger wheel in my quest to get closer to the apex... :bustingup 

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

Stuka said:


> *:flipoff: :angel:
> 
> Just because I curbed my rear passenger wheel in my quest to get closer to the apex... :bustingup
> 
> ...


And from all the sideways driving and Butthead stories! :bustingup :bustingup


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Stuka said:


> *:flipoff: :angel:
> 
> Just because I curbed my rear passenger wheel in my quest to get closer to the apex... :bustingup
> 
> ...


sidewalk.... curb (rash)....


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

Stuka said:


> *:flipoff: :angel:
> 
> Just because I curbed my rear passenger wheel in my quest to get closer to the apex... :bustingup
> 
> ...


Hey, I like that story...need to remember that....yea, I rashed my wheel on the apex curbing:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

StahlGrauM3 said:


> *Hey, I like that story...need to remember that....yea, I rashed my wheel on the apex curbing:thumbup: :thumbup: *


Except that burms are not THAT high!  :thumbdwn:

:angel:


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## jderry (Sep 24, 2002)

FWIW -

That exclusion clause turns on a couple of words IMHO,



> organized racing


. This is why I am curious as to how auto-x is viewed. I know that the chances of wrecking in auto-x are nil; but, auto-x is a TIMED "event."

Whereas, most driving schools, HPDE's, etc...are NOT timed events. You are not "racing" around. That is one of the main reasons I think some schools do not allow timers in vehicles.

I would RECHECK your AAA policy. I know they've changed their policy regarding aftermarket modifications.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

jderry said:


> *FWIW -
> 
> That exclusion clause turns on a couple of words IMHO,
> 
> ...


This is why I will never do auto-x, and any events that have a timed section, like the street of Willow.

The fact that part of the event is timed can potentially make an insurance claim that much more difficult.:thumbdwn:

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

Stuka said:


> *This is why I will never do auto-x, and any events that have a timed section, like the street of Willow.
> 
> The fact that part of the event is timed can potentially make an insurance claim that much more difficult.:thumbdwn:
> 
> ...


At least with the LA and SD CCA chapters, the timed and untimed sections at the auto-x are distinct, and you shouldn't have a problem with the insurance company if you crash during the untimed portion of the event.


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## jderry (Sep 24, 2002)

I just ask to do fun runs, e.g., untimed ones.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

Stuka said:


> *This is why I will never do auto-x, and any events that have a timed section, like the street of Willow.
> 
> The fact that part of the event is timed can potentially make an insurance claim that much more difficult.:thumbdwn:
> 
> ...


What do you mean by the Streets of Willow being timed? I've never been there, is there a built in timing system or something? I thought it was the same as other tracks where timing was up to the organizer to set up if they choose.


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## teamdfl (Sep 24, 2002)

jderry said:


> *...Whereas, most driving schools, HPDE's, etc...are NOT timed events. You are not "racing" around. That is one of the main reasons I think some schools do not allow timers in vehicles.
> ... *


Referring to a driving school as high performance driver's ed (HPDE) will surely lead to extra headaches if you have to deal with your insurance company. The "high performance" part will surely drive an underwriter crazy.

Ed


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

StahlGrauM3 said:


> *What do you mean by the Streets of Willow being timed? I've never been there, is there a built in timing system or something? I thought it was the same as other tracks where timing was up to the organizer to set up if they choose. *


There is no built-in system, Stuka must have been :smokin: something... :angel:


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## WhatApex?!? (Nov 6, 2002)

I know for sure the large tracks like Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca, Sears Point and Willow Springs all have the transponder timing systems installed on the tracks. They will not get any times from you unless you have a transponder mounted on your car. I guess it's safe to say that even though the timing system is built into the track that you're not getting times.

The AutoX's use a different timing system which is triggered by reflecting a light beam. 

Oh.... I've never heard of anyone getting curb rash from hitting the apex. The just bend the heck out of the wheel. :bawling:


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

WhatApex?!? said:


> *I know for sure the large tracks like Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca, Sears Point and Willow Springs all have the transponder timing systems installed on the tracks. They will not get any times from you unless you have a transponder mounted on your car. I guess it's safe to say that even though the timing system is built into the track that you're not getting times.
> *


Yeah, I guess what I meant to point out to Stuka is that they won't automatically time you on the track and hence raise insurance issues.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

WhatApex?!? said:


> *I know for sure the large tracks like Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca, Sears Point and Willow Springs all have the transponder timing systems installed on the tracks. They will not get any times from you unless you have a transponder mounted on your car. I guess it's safe to say that even though the timing system is built into the track that you're not getting times.
> 
> The AutoX's use a different timing system which is triggered by reflecting a light beam.
> 
> Oh.... I've never heard of anyone getting curb rash from hitting the apex. The just bend the heck out of the wheel. :bawling: *


Actually, I don't think any tracks have built in timing systems. I've been to quite a few and each time the drivers had to set up their own hot lap transmitters at the side of the track. (These send a beam across the track that is picked up by a receiver in the car) Those that wanted to be timed had to have a receiver in their car, the other cars were not part of the timing.


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## GalBimmer (Jul 7, 2002)

cenotaph said:


> *Do you happen to remember (or be able to dig up) names? I've been considdering this since MA makes it very difficult to get DEs covered. Knowing my luck no one will want to cover a MA car.
> 
> As a side note, does anyone know if any of the "best" insurers offer coverage in MA? *


http://www.americancollectorsins.com/

These folks offer supplemental insurance (with a lot of language wrapped around it).


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