# New 330d has 231hp



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

mustang said:


> I drove a 320d. I was pretty quick, but it sure was crap. I couldn't buy a BMW diesel (as diesels are right now). Oddly, I think a VW Golf makes an excellent diesel car. VW's diesel engines are real good and Golf isn't too expensive. Kinda makes sense.


Clearly your 320d was in a poor way. I have never read a road test that put the VW Group engines above the BMW's; I have driven, and been driven, in the 320d (newer 150 bhp version) and the VW 1.9 in most states of tune. You obviously didn't go above 3,501 rpm in the VW; its power band is barely 1,500 rpm wide! I suppose there has to be some reason why they are relatively cheap...


> Honda have the BEST diesel in their Accord. It's their FIRST diesel and they've blown all the other diesel manufacturing comapnies out the water.


Shame it doesn't give the car some more get-up-and-go. It is supposed to be more refined than most mainstream petrol fours, though - a great attempt at their first volume, car-based in-house diesel.


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## KoenG (Dec 15, 2004)

The 330d is also an I-6, some members seem to deny this. The latest incarnation is only available by the end of this year so nobody has driven it yet (at least customers I mean). 

The engine is the same as the one in the 535d, with both turbo's replaced by another type. So it uses a new type of light and rigid alloy, reducing the weight of the engine. The only information I read was in the latest issue of the magazine "Auto Motor und Sport", refering to the new 730d. This will also have the same engine as the 330d.

I can assume that Ferrari doesn't have it since a V8 with 490hp, revving up to 8000rpm is appealing to another segment than a torqy diesel. I can imagine that M5 customers really appreciate the +6000rpm behaviour of the car, when they don't, why do they have it then!? While 535d owners will rave about the 1250-2500 rpm grunt of their car, where the M5 is not making much of an impression.

It's a matter of preference and driving conditions. I would love to own an M5 when I would be on the "Nord Schleiffe", but as a daily driver, it would only get me in jail regularly and won't deliver the very smooth accesible fun of .... a new 330d.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Just thought I'd add a couple of points to this heated discussion:

I thought the new Valvetronic 3L engine will have better fuel economy than the current one, by some 20% (huge improvement).

The new engine will also have 258HP again topping the diesel.

Then what main advantage will a diesel have? Low rpm driveability? :dunno: Who really cares for that in a *SPORTS* sedan?

Related to this, I read in the most recent Car magazine that a VW using the 1.6L FSI engine delivered something like 45mpg in their test, which was on the same level as the diesels used in the other cars. So there is clearly considerable room for improvement on the fuel economy for petrol engines as well... don't write them off.

My wife might like low end torque so she can shift a little less in daily driving. As for me, I live for the thrill to take that sweet engine to it's redline...

YMMV.

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

Alex Baumann said:


> Mine have been problem-less so far. It's pretty quick on the Autobahn too. Can you elaborate on the 'crap' part ?


Elaborating on 'carp' part: Yes... I was lent an '04 320D as a courtesy car. As soon as I started it, it rattled. Ok maybe the engine is cold. When it was warmed up, it still rattled (a lot less, but still rattled). It was very torquey in the midrange but then I found myself having to change up. Not very sporty imo.

Please odnt get me wrong. I'm not saying there isn't a market for diesel cars, just that if I'm gona spend £20k+ on a car, then I certainly want it to, if not sound cool, at least not sound rattly. What is the pint of buying a bmw with it's excellent build quality, refinement etc, and then starting the engine to hear it rattle (and therattle continues even when warm).

I was pulled up at the lights. Next to me was a 2004 Merc E270CD. I didn't even look at the badge and I knew it was a diesel (I saw the badge afterwards).

Diesel cars are good for company car drivers because they (in the UK) have to pay less tax. I dont see why private motrists would buy diesel. For example, a 320D coupe costs £25k, a petrol 320Ci costs the same (actually about £300 less). The diesel (auto) does 36mpg, the petrol (auto) does 30mpg. The petrol one is fast (0-60), faster top speed, sounds better and is more refined. The only thing the diesel has is that it does a measly 6mpg better and has a low rev range. What's the point of going diesel.

If you can afford a £25k+ BMW, then you car afford the 6mpg difference!


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

gesoffen said:


> Lesse - the LS400/430, Porsches, Ferraris and Lamborghinis don't have Inline 6s. Therefor I-6s must be garbage too.
> 
> If you've driven the 330d or the 320d and determined that you don't like them, that is fine - you're entitled to you educated opinion. If you haven't and are basing your conclusions on what other manufacturers are/aren't doing then you're jumping to conclusions - you're still entitled too but in this case it would be an *un*educated opinion.
> 
> I've yet to drive a BMW diesel but would jump at the chance. I've driven several diesels from VW/Audi (past and present) and have usually come away impressed. I wish we had the option over here in the land of 8mpg SUVs.


-----
My point about Lexus not making diesel is that iesels aren't refined enough (ok, the IS now has a disel but that's only because the market wants it). Porsche and the others mentioned dont have diesels because diesels aren't sporty enough. So I was trying to make two points: 1. not refined and 2. not sporty.

BMW makes VERY good diesel cars. I just cant see the point for private motorists (as opposed to co. car dcrivers) buying diesel. (See my previous post).


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## KoenG (Dec 15, 2004)

I love the bimmer for its dynamics and sporty, yet comfortable, behaviour. There is probably no sports sedan on this earth that can blend these contradictions like the 3-series does. 

Then again, I would like to live in a country where I can drive my yearly 30.000 miles without speed limitations and without traffic jams and with roads constructed like F1 circuits. The truth is, I don't  

I have to hand in my drivers licence a second time in 5 years and next time, they will put me behind bars. At least, that is what the judge just told me previous week! 

Therefore, I can appreciate the magnificent capabilities of the 3-series in a diesel. It's even capable to deliver instant blasting power at acceptable cost. In Belgium at least, the 330d has a Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) that's 30% lower than this of the 330i. It has refined smoothness and there are parts of the powerband, were it actually exceeds the output of the new M5 with even 20%. Also this makes it a bit special. 

Of course, the 330i is and will remain a mighty capable and satisfying ride. No doubt about that, but these days, I start appreciating the relaxing grunt and added economics of the diesel. It's no longer a punishment to drive diesel to state it differently, especially not when it's a 3.0-liter BMW.


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## KoenG (Dec 15, 2004)

mustang said:


> -----
> My point about Lexus not making diesel is that iesels aren't refined enough (ok, the IS now has a disel but that's only because the market wants it). Porsche and the others mentioned dont have diesels because diesels aren't sporty enough. So I was trying to make two points: 1. not refined and 2. not sporty.
> 
> BMW makes VERY good diesel cars. I just cant see the point for private motorists (as opposed to co. car dcrivers) buying diesel. (See my previous post).


Mustang...Lexus will have a IS220 diesel next year. It's the Toyota engine of the Avensis "Clean Power" prototype with 180hp and 400Nm.

But you're right in a way, it seems that modern diesel engines that are clean, are so costly that they don't seem to be the superior design on the long run. Meaning that they won't take over the engine market eventually. A clean 3.0-liter diesel costs as much as a 5.0 V8 gasoline in production! And hey...we would probably all prefer the V8 at the same cost, don't we?


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

andy_thomas said:


> Clearly your 320d was in a poor way. I have never read a road test that put the VW Group engines above the BMW's; I have driven, and been driven, in the 320d (newer 150 bhp version) and the VW 1.9 in most states of tune. You obviously didn't go above 3,501 rpm in the VW; its power band is barely 1,500 rpm wide! I suppose there has to be some reason why they are relatively cheap...
> 
> Shame it doesn't give the car some more get-up-and-go. It is supposed to be more refined than most mainstream petrol fours, though - a great attempt at their first volume, car-based in-house diesel.


---
The pint I was making about the VW is that their diesel engines are very good and the price of their cars is 'affordable'... if you dont have the money to burn on petrol, then why buy an expensive diesel (eg. BMW).


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

andy_thomas said:


> The 320d still sounds like a diesel, albeit a very refined one. At idle it's about as loud as a petrol "six". But have you heard the engine note of a 330d?


I think we're getting 'loudness' mixed up with 'engine note', andwith this example, I would stick with petrol.

I haven't heard a 330D, howevr a friend has an '04 730D. It sounds good... for a diesel. But then that car costs £50k. Who spends £50k on a car and is concerned with it being 8mpg better!?


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

Then again, I would like to live in a country where I can drive my yearly 30.000 miles 


--- 30000 miles per annum? I would go diesel as well. But I would go for soemthin cheaper - if you're racking up that kind of mileage, then you'll loose at resale (yes yes I know diesels hold their value *a little better* than petrol versions).


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

gesoffen said:


> Lesse - the LS400/430, Porsches, Ferraris and Lamborghinis don't have Inline 6s. Therefor I-6s must be garbage too.
> 
> -- I wrote a lnog postt for this but then I got logged out! ARGH.
> 
> ...


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> Well said.
> 
> .


;-) I hope you have come to realise that I have actually thought about diesle v petrol before writing all this stuff! I have driven a few disels (BMW, VW/Audi) in the past and more recently. They are much better now than they were.


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

adc said:


> Just thought I'd add a couple of points to this heated discussion:
> 
> I thought the new Valvetronic 3L engine will have better fuel economy than the current one, by some 20% (huge improvement).
> 
> ...


--ADC, I reda that article also (VW Golf at 45mpg from petrol engine.

I respect the opinions of the diesel fans as well as the petrol fans.


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

KoenG said:


> Mustang...Lexus will have a IS220 diesel next year. It's the Toyota engine of the Avensis "Clean Power" prototype with 180hp and 400Nm.
> 
> But you're right in a way, it seems that modern diesel engines that are clean, are so costly that they don't seem to be the superior design on the long run. Meaning that they won't take over the engine market eventually. A clean 3.0-liter diesel costs as much as a 5.0 V8 gasoline in production! And hey...we would probably all prefer the V8 at the same cost, don't we?


----
Yup I know about the IS diessel coming out. I will stay away fomr it but many company car crivers in the UK will go for it because it affords them tax savings (UK govt tax policies wrt CO.2 emissions - HA! That's a laugh and another debate!)
Agree with your other point also.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

adc said:


> Just thought I'd add a couple of points to this heated discussion:
> 
> I thought the new Valvetronic 3L engine will have better fuel economy than the current one, by some 20% (huge improvement).
> 
> ...


About half of all BMW buyers in Europe. At some point, economics come into it - diesel is still significantly cheaper in almost all European countries, and the cars are on average more economical, regardless of isolated examples to the contrary. And at least diesel buyers have the option of petrol if they don't mind spending the money.

Examples (using figures for 318i and 320d):

Doing 10,000 miles a year at an average of 30 mpUSg at $1.40 a litre: $1,773 a year
Doing 10,000 miles a year at an average of 42 mpUSg at $1.12 a litre: $1,008 a year

$765 (43%) less per year. I would bet it's the same for 330i and 330d. If redlining isn't your thing, and for most people it isn't, it's a compelling argument.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

mustang said:


> I think we're getting 'loudness' mixed up with 'engine note', andwith this example, I would stick with petrol.


My modest point was that for most people, once engine volume drops to low enough a level, the timbre is unimportant. Apart from anything else, road and wind noise is louder. 


> I haven't heard a 330D, howevr a friend has an '04 730D. It sounds good... for a diesel. But then that car costs £50k. Who spends £50k on a car and is concerned with it being 8mpg better!?


I agree that at the top end of the scale, diesels don't seem to have much "point". But there must be *some* dynamic at play, because the market for them is very big.

You also asked why, if you have money to burn to buy a BMW at all, why buy a diesel? It's a common question, but one which does not take into account the financial position of anyone else but the person asking the question. Some of us can stretch to a BMW but will only do so if low running costs (which could otherwise be used to service debt) are guaranteed; others place resale value even higher, and these days diesel BMWs have a clear advantage here. Some will think beyond the purchase price (so many Britons can't, or won't!) and look at overall cost of ownership figures and see a clear benefit to e.g. a 320d instead of a 318i. Others see typical diesel characteristics as shortcomings (noise at low speed, short powerband, lumpy delivery) and trade this off against the costs. Re. your comment about the Lexus diesel; it may not be the optimal, drive- (as opposed to driv_er_-)-centric solution, but there is a big market for it and it is commercial stupidity not to respond.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

andy_thomas said:


> About half of all BMW buyers in Europe. At some point, economics come into it - diesel is still significantly cheaper in almost all European countries, and the cars are on average more economical, regardless of isolated examples to the contrary. And at least diesel buyers have the option of petrol if they don't mind spending the money.
> 
> Examples (using figures for 318i and 320d):
> 
> ...


Andy, I think I understand the reason for buying diesels in Europe. $800 / year is nothing to sneeze at for sure.

But in the US? I thought that was where the controversy lays... There are people here arguing for BMW to bring diesels in the US, but as the current pricing, infrastructure etc. stands I see very little if any reason at all. Apparently BMW thinks the same.

Who knows, if you have to drive 50,000 miles per year it may start to make sense on this side of the pond as well...

But for a driving enthusiast regardless of the geographical location, I should hope they like pushing a nice engine high up in the rev range, same as me. It is such an integral part of becoming one with the car, the anticipation of the raising RPM, the joy of hearing the engine scream it's way to the redline, the mounting speed and the increasing violence. :dunno: At least it is for me...

And besides, I'd hate to have diesel fuel and its associated stink on my alcantara steering wheel .

But yes, to each their own.

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

adc said:


> Andy, I think I understand the reason for buying diesels in Europe. $800 / year is nothing to sneeze at for sure.
> 
> But in the US? I thought that was where the controversy lays... There are people here arguing for BMW to bring diesels in the US, but as the current pricing, infrastructure etc. stands I see very little if any reason at all. Apparently BMW thinks the same.


Historical concerns over the sulphur content of the fuel, traditional views of the diesel engine and enduring cheapness of petrol/gasoline all dissuade BMW NA top brass from taking the plunge. Only if fuel rises in cost to a price where people actively expect economical alternatives - not just seek them out - does it become economically worthwhile. In the face of this, even the likely attraction of diesel motoring to the traditional U.S. driver (gobs of torque, low average rpm) wouldn't be enough. Interestingly the X5 3.0d has done well in the Australian market, where the locals are even more attracted to their big, lazy and low-revving petrol engines.

Personally I find diesels hard to have that much fun in, although the high-gear grunt of the BMW diesels is so fruity that the first time I experienced it, I actually laughed out loud...


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## KoenG (Dec 15, 2004)

mustang said:


> Then again, I would like to live in a country where I can drive my yearly 30.000 miles
> 
> --- 30000 miles per annum? I would go diesel as well. But I would go for soemthin cheaper - if you're racking up that kind of mileage, then you'll loose at resale (yes yes I know diesels hold their value *a little better* than petrol versions).


About resale.. my eyes are popping out of my skull when I see what people are willing to pay for my 320d touring with 100k miles on it! It has costed 32k€ new in november 2000 and it will sell now for 18k€. A 330i would go for about 12k€ now, a 330d would go for 20k€. I don't understand either...


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## mustang (Dec 28, 2004)

andy_thomas said:


> About half of all BMW buyers in Europe. At some point, economics come into it - diesel is still significantly cheaper in almost all European countries, and the cars are on average more economical, regardless of isolated examples to the contrary. And at least diesel buyers have the option of petrol if they don't mind spending the money.
> 
> Examples (using figures for 318i and 320d):
> 
> ...


-----
But the 318 is £1000 cheaper to buy in the first place and is more refined (one of BMW's key selling points).


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> and an Alpina B3S. I am cruising with the diesel, hunting with the Alpina.


Alex, could you please post more info on the Alpina B3S? Interested in the gains from the cams... (of course assuming it's still using the 3L motor).

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

adc said:


> Alex, could you please post more info on the Alpina B3S? Interested in the gains from the cams... (of course assuming it's still using the 3L motor).
> 
> adc
> 03 330 ZHP


Let me jump ahead of Alex here. The B3S is not a variant of the 330. It´s motor is completely different. It is a long stroke engine based on the old (iron block) US version of the E36 M3. Only that engine could be bored out to 3.3 Litres. It shares hardly any parts with the current 3.0 Liter M54 or the older 2.8Litre M52 unit (which are both alloy blocks). It´s a true Alpina engine pieced together from various BMW parts and some Alpina parts.

Very fine engine indeed. :thumbup:

But don´t even start looking at the B3 or B3S to nick performance parts for any other E46 engine. Alpina also sells very few retrofit parts (wheels and bodykit) but no performance mods for BMW. Alpina is not a BMW tuner but a full manufacturer that uses BMW as parts supplier. As they say: Automotive masterpieces :bow:

http://www.alpina-automobile.de/index.php

If theres anyting wrong regarding aformentioned information, I´m sure Alex will kindly correct. 

Alpina: I would if I could... :yummy:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

tierfreund said:


> If theres anyting wrong in regarding aformentioned information, I´m sure Alex will kindly correct.


That's correct :thumbup:


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

tierfreund said:


> Let me jump ahead of Alex here. The B3S is not a variant of the 330. It´s motor is completely different. It is a long stroke engine based on the old (iron block) US version of the E36 M3. Only that engine could be bored out to 3.3 Litres. It shares hardly any parts with the current 3.0 Liter M54 or the older 2.8Litre M52 unit (which are both alloy blocks). It´s a true Alpina engine pieced together from various BMW parts and some Alpina parts.


Does it come with an LSD? (I think I saw a 3.15 rear end mentioned, but not sure about the limited part).

I'm still on a quest to find a relatively cheap alternative for an LSD for my car...

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

adc said:


> Does it come with an LSD? (I think I saw a 3.15 rear end mentioned, but not sure about the limited part).
> 
> I'm still on a quest to find a relatively cheap alternative for an LSD for my car...
> 
> ...


Nope, unfortunately no LSD.


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