# To pay or not to pay "Dealer Fee"



## basiluf (Dec 16, 2010)

on European Delivery. I've heard conflicting information and BMWFS and BMWNA did not have the answer to if dealers were allowed to charge a dealer fee for European Delivery. The website does state that "training fees" are not to be charged, but I'm not sure if a dealer fee applies to this.

How it is listed:


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

They can charge you a dealer fee. Just factor it in to your ed invoice + xxx price.


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## basiluf (Dec 16, 2010)

the J-Man said:


> They can charge you a dealer fee. Just factor it in to your ed invoice + xxx price.


Unfortunately since I ordered a M235i it's ED MSRP. The dealer fee will be part of the cash due at signing along with MSDs and license fee.


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## bikenski (Jun 16, 2002)

How the sausage is made doesn't really matter. If the dealer won't budge on the Doc Fee, offer them $489 less on the selling price than if the fee wasn't included.

As far as whether the dealer is "allowed" to charge the fee on a Euro Delivery, I'd have to assume so. Those fees are pre-printed on most dealers' contracts these days, and I've never seen a modified contract used specifically for ED.


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## SJAPoc (Apr 14, 2007)

Some dealers charge more than others for Document fees. Braman BMW in Palm Beach was a rather reasonable $169. I have paid higher.


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## jsublime (Mar 4, 2009)

Paid a 100 dealer fee when I did an ED through Passport BMW a few years ago. Just consider it part of the "dealer profit".


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## basiluf (Dec 16, 2010)

jsublime said:


> Paid a 100 dealer fee when I did an ED through Passport BMW a few years ago. Just consider it part of the "dealer profit".


I see you're also from Orlando. Fields BMW knows all about "dealer profit". The GM was driving a shiny yellow Lamborghini Aventador yesterday.

Edit: I didn't know Fields owned the local Lambo dealership too.

http://www.fieldsauto.com/certified...ventador-7e84f2640a0a00656dad302fde97c294.htm


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## Meiac09 (Jan 2, 2006)

basiluf said:


> I see you're also from Orlando. Fields BMW knows all about "dealer profit". The GM was driving a shiny yellow Lamborghini Aventador yesterday.
> 
> Edit: I didn't know Fields owned the local Lambo dealership too.
> 
> http://www.fieldsauto.com/certified...ventador-7e84f2640a0a00656dad302fde97c294.htm


Limits vary according to state laws. In my case, I saw value in it because the dealer saved me multiple trips to the DMV and drove me to the airport.


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

jsublime said:


> Paid a 100 dealer fee when I did an ED through Passport BMW a few years ago. Just consider it part of the "dealer profit".


Exactly . . . this is a "dealer profit" fee, not a "BMW NA profit" fee.

(Showing how long ago I last did ED, Passport's fee when I signed contract was $35 - they raised it to $100 - "to be in line with competitors" shortly before final payment was due, and cheekily tried to charge me the increased amount).

The document fee is nominally for the cost of processing the paperwork. Of course, $489 is a lot of money to pay someone to staple a few pages, make a few photocopies, and maybe fedex some documents to a lender. Not to mention that's what we usually would think of as what employees are supposed to do in exchange for their wages.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Tanning machine said:


> The document fee is nominally for the cost of processing the paperwork. Of course, $489 is a lot of money to pay someone to staple a few pages, make a few photocopies, and maybe fedex some documents to a lender.


Conversely, you could also argue that $1,000 a car is not enough profit on a car to run a dealership, pay overhead, salaries etc.

I fall back on supply-demand as the driver on pricing. This isn't a cost plus business.


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## basiluf (Dec 16, 2010)

chrischeung said:


> Conversely, you could also argue that $1,000 a car is not enough profit on a car to run a dealership, pay overhead, salaries etc.
> 
> I fall back on supply-demand as the driver on pricing. This isn't a cost plus business.


Then all of those Toyota/Hyundai dealerships would be closing down left and right. Dealerships make their killings in the service departments. Any profit they make on sales is an added plus.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

the j-man said:


> they can charge you a dealer fee. Just factor it in to your ed invoice + xxx price.


+1. N4s


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## Gig103 (Sep 10, 2007)

The dealership I used (one of the board guys) had changed their doc fee from the agreed-on $150 to $300 when the paperwork showed up. Salesman claims he can't do anything about it, until I said I wasn't buying the car with the new doc fee since we had a deal months ago and I was willing to walk over the $150. 

He lowered the sales price of the car and overnighted me a new contract, I loved the ED program, and had the car for 5 years. So yes, anything is possible, just take it into account when dealing.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

basiluf said:


> Then all of those Toyota/Hyundai dealerships would be closing down left and right. Dealerships make their killings in the service departments. Any profit they make on sales is an added plus.


My point was that it is inconsistent when the profit on one item is excessive, since they would argue that the other one is lacking.

You could ask them to balance one with the other, but there are legal risk reasons why they probably wouldn't reduce it. You'll have more success in asking them to reduce the selling price than asking them to reduce the doc fee.

Having said that, I've gotten dealerships to waive the doc fee on 2 new cars I have purchased - a Honda and a BMW. Not by reducing the selling price, but by making it nil. It's just part of negotiations. Everything is negotiable.


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## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2012)

Chrischeung:

I couldn't have said it better....customers have no idea what it costs to open the front doors of a dealership. I
have 3 assistants who work with me to prepare paperwork so that the customer can have a great experience
at the WELT. Everyone has to make a living!!!


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Chrischeung:
> 
> I couldn't have said it better....customers have no idea what it costs to open the front doors of a dealership. I
> have 3 assistants who work with me to prepare paperwork so that the customer can have a great experience
> at the WELT. Everyone has to make a living!!!


I have no quarrel with a reasonable profit.

What is upsetting is springing a "hidden" fee or an undisclosed fee late in the process. I would prefer a dealer who is up front and says "I need to make $1500 [or X] on this sale" instead of one who says "I'll accept $1000 over invoice [waits] and $500 doc fee."


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## SJAPoc (Apr 14, 2007)

Tanning machine said:


> I have no quarrel with a reasonable profit.
> 
> What is upsetting is springing a "hidden" fee or an undisclosed fee late in the process. I would prefer a dealer who is up front and says "I need to make $1500 [or X] on this sale" instead of one who says "I'll accept $1000 over invoice [waits] and $500 doc fee."


Perhaps the lesson to be learned is to inquire what the Dealer's Doc fees are before making the offer over invoice. *Reasonable Doc Fees are certainly acceptable*, but comparatively speaking, over a certain threshold, the amount comes across as being unethical and even more so since they do 'spring up' after the deal is struck. They can always be negotiated I suppose, but that is not the point.


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## SJAPoc (Apr 14, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Chrischeung:
> 
> I couldn't have said it better....customers have no idea what it costs to open the front doors of a dealership. I
> have 3 assistants who work with me to prepare paperwork so that the customer can have a great experience
> at the WELT. Everyone has to make a living!!!


Very well said John. There is little doubt that the level of service you provided me on my recent order was fabulous. Not only does it show that you love what you do, but also your commitment to European Delivery and your regard for the Bimmerfest community.

Your prices - *including the document fees* - are competitive as that is what the market demands. I suppose that volume does offset the lowered pricing that a Bimmerfest Sponsor such as your self can work on. Conversely however, dealing with sophisticated buyers such as Bimmerfest members with whom you can easily strike a deal - albeit at lowered profit margins - has its own rewards. It is that balance that benefits all of us and as far as I am concerned, it is a win-win situation.

Keep up the good work :thumbup:


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Tanning machine said:


> I have no quarrel with a reasonable profit.
> 
> What is upsetting is springing a "hidden" fee or an undisclosed fee late in the process. I would prefer a dealer who is up front and says "I need to make $1500 [or X] on this sale" instead of one who says "I'll accept $1000 over invoice [waits] and $500 doc fee."


Exactly.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Tanning machine said:


> What is upsetting is springing a "hidden" fee or an undisclosed fee late in the process. I would prefer a dealer who is up front and says "I need to make $1500 [or X] on this sale" instead of one who says "I'll accept $1000 over invoice [waits] and $500 doc fee."


Whose fault is that? The dealer or the purchaser? I was taught in school at 14 the concept "Caveat Emptor". Is there a failing in the US education system?

If the purchaser asks for an "out the door" price, then that's pretty clear cut. But if they ask for $x over invoice, then it's understood that dealer fees and taxes are in addition. I would have sympathy for someone who was told it would be X, but was then charged Y. But IMO, it's a case of someone not doing their homework, and not asking the right questions. Heck - go to the dealership with a friend who's bought a car before.

Yes, it would be ideal if everything was pre-disclosed, but then dealers would make less money that way. The sales process is designed to maximize sales and profit. Similar to how airline fees etc. are shown. Is the selling price on a house the price you pay? Is your salary and benefits exactly what you thought was offered? This pracitce is the norm, rather than the exception. I think the practice is common enough in different areas, that the majority of people understand that a price quoted is not final, and that you need to ask to get the final price or deal. I doubt it's illegal.

My suggestion - always ask for the "out the door" or "drive away" price or deal. Now if someone could share any pitfalls where that differed, I'd be interested in knowing.


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