# Help on wax ideas?



## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Ok with the switch to black, I have already ordered and taken possession of a new Porter Cable. Now I need to get some polish, cleaner, wax and tools set up to complete the package. My initial school of thought was to go machine polish (Griot's) and machine removal. Ditto with paint cleaner (either P21S or Zymol). But was thinking hand application of wax. This would involve mutliple purchases.

As it appears Griot's is the best source of PC pads, removal bonnets etc. an order from them is in the cards. So I have considered trying the BOS wax as well. Any one ever PC their wax? How about the wax removal bonnets? Swirling chances up with this technique?

I am looking to a maximize use of the PC, minimize swirls/etc and keep the ZHP shining.

Haus, look for a long PM of wish list some time this week :bigpimp: Or maybe I should just give you my CC # and let you take care of my needs:dunno:


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## AlpWhite04 (Mar 12, 2003)

For black, I would use Pinnacle Souveran.

It has over 35% Carnauba from the yellow leaf of the 'tree of life"

www.pinnaclewax.com


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

FWIW, I'm not big on machine removal, seems like overkill. A few microfibre towels would be amply sufficient and give you a streak and swirl free finish. I use the PC for polish and wax application, even Blitz...I soften up the Blitz and smooth it on the pad and apply, what a breeze. But, I also use Griot's Best of Show wax, great stuff. The microfibre towels were the biggest positive for me on polish and wax removal. You're right, Griot's has great pads, orange for polish and red for wax. I don't like the white one that comes with the machine, but Rip does. Griot's microfibre towels are good but expensive, the yellow one is great for polish removal, however, I've had great luck with PakShak's towels. Glad your surgery went well. Pakshak website


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

DougDogs said:


> *Hey John, How long do microfibre towels last?? or are they use once and throw away??
> 
> (thanks for the link) *


Just like any other towel, just wash and reuse. These things are so soft I'd have a baby use one as a "blankie."


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Help on wax ideas?*



johnlew said:


> *FWIW, I'm not big on machine removal, seems like overkill. A few microfibre towels would be amply sufficient and give you a streak and swirl free finish. I use the PC for polish and wax application, even Blitz...I soften up the Blitz and smooth it on the pad and apply, what a breeze. But, I also use Griot's Best of Show wax, great stuff. The microfibre towels were the biggest positive for me on polish and wax removal. You're right, Griot's has great pads, orange for polish and red for wax. I don't like the white one that comes with the machine, but Rip does. Griot's microfibre towels are good but expensive, the yellow one is great for polish removal, however, I've had great luck with PakShak's towels. Glad your surgery went well. Pakshak website *


Thanks, hand removal is the best way it sounds:thumbup: PC on, microfiber off 

I think Vexed can pick Pakshak's up in person  :angel:


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## Nick T. (Feb 22, 2003)

*Dr. Phil - - *
As you either know, or will soon discover, black is the real test of your detailing skills. When you can say, "I'm an expert at black paint care," you will have qualified for your PhD. in detailing. At this point I sorta stuck in about 9th grade!

IMO it doesn't make a lot of difference which products you choose, the quality of the results depend on the methods and techniques that you use! Follow the basic steps and develop your skills.

1) Get the paint clean - dish detergent wash
2)Remove the embedded debris (even on a new car) - clay and shampoo/water solution lubricant, rinse as you go
3) Remove swirls/micro-marring - mild polish and a RO buffer
4) Increase shine and reflectivity - very mild cleaner/polish such as P21S's GEPC, S100's SEC, Platinum UPP-C, etc. with a RO buffer
5) Fill any remaining marring - pure glaze such as 3M's IHG, RO buffer again or hand application/removal
6) Prepare for the protectant - for carnauba just a wipe down with the QD made by your wax's manufacturer
or
6) Prepare for the protectant - for synthetics wash with their shampoo, then wipe with their QD
7) Protect & increase reflectivity and depth - very thin coats of good carnauba (P21S, S100, Souverän pastes, etc.) by hand.
or
7) Protect & increase reflectivity and depth - very thin coats of good synthetic (Klasse's SG, Zaino, Platinum, etc.) by hand

Follow the instructions on the can/bottle the first time around, next time start doing some experimenting.

Most importantly, have fun learning!


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

So far I am planning on the following
Griot's machine kit for polish, clay, prep  is this thing safe to use ? 
for removal Microfiber cloths 

Also use some P21S between polish and wax phase, thinking fo this kit to cover all bases or maybe just get paint cleaner :dunno:

Any opinions on alternating wax product


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## LilEccentricJ (Dec 19, 2001)

O C D :yikes:


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Help on wax ideas?*



Dr. Phil said:


> *I think Vexed can pick Pakshak's up in person  :angel: *


We (SONET, Kaz and I) can definitely vouch for the PakShaks.  That what we used in getting the M Roady ready for the Clean Car Contest.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

LilEccentricJ said:


> *O C D :yikes: *


LOL

This from the master :tsk:

One order down, one to go :angel:


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

Pass on the clay holder for the PC, totally unnecessary and loss of control, IMO. Also, the yellow microfibre towels from Griots are nice but I'm less fond of the white. I think the special packs from PAKSHAK are less expensive and better quality and would opt for them over Griots. The kit is nice (pads, polish, etc.) but I'd order a gallon of the SpeedShine too (much cheaper). I find Meguiars Gold Class shampoo in any parts store for about $5 and is much less than P21S shampoo. Just as good IMO, but the P21S sure smells nice...like apples.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Dr.Phil,

I have the P21S kit I think its a good deal for what you get. 

You are going to clay your new car?... be careful don't scratch your new paint. 

You probably do not need to polish your new paint. You may want to use a glaze and not a polish on the paint because it is new. 

Just my amateur opinion though. :dunno:


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *Dr.Phil,
> 
> I have the P21S kit I think its a good deal for what you get.
> 
> ...


The polish will not be applied for a month at least, there is some minor swirling from the detail boys at the dealer  So a mid summer clay/polish session would be in order.

At least that is my thoughts:dunno:


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

I am far less experienced at detailing then some other people here.

But, considering it is a brand new car you might want to try a glaze and see if that works before going to a polish. You can always go with the polish next time.

Read this if you haven't already

http://www.carcareonline.com/viewarticle.aspx?art=5


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *I am far less experienced at detailing then some other people here.
> 
> But, considering it is a brand new car you might want to try a glaze and see if that works before going to a polish. You can always go with the polish next time.
> 
> ...


Thanks :thumbup:

I will likely over buy and have on hand any potential needs  :angel: :bigpimp:


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

Phil, Art mentioned above about scratching while claying. This is not a problem as long as the clay and surface are well lubricated with your speedshine or other detailing spray. But, as I mentioned, I think you lose the "feel" of the clay and how it's sliding if you use it with the orbital adapter and run a greater risk of scratching or smudging clay on the surface. JMO, but claying is so easy and works great by hand.

Edit: the folks at carcareonline that Art mentioned are great even if though they don't recommend the orbital.


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

johnlew said:


> *Phil, Art mentioned above about scratching while claying. This is not a problem as long as the clay and surface are well lubricated with your speedshine or other detailing spray. But, as I mentioned, I think you lose the "feel" of the clay and how it's sliding if you use it with the orbital adapter and run a greater risk of scratching or smudging clay on the surface. JMO, but claying is so easy and works great by hand. *


I agree.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

scottn2retro said:


> *I agree.  *


Me too


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I've also heard good things about PakShak's microfiber towels and now he carries waffleweaves! My next order is going to be from him for sure. I know that he has a special discount for Autopia members and I'm sure bimmerfest folks would get one as well if there was enough interest.



Phil, you'll be happy with that P21S kit but you can get some products cheaper at your local harley dealer under S100 label. Both wax and paint cleaner compliment each other and are simply awsome :thumbup: .
Paint cleanser is very mild and I would not hesitate to use it on brand new car,


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

Yep, good info in this thread. 
Clay=By hand 
Removal of product=by hand.

FYI< Personally I'm not too wild about Griots liquid wax(BOS), but I love their carnauba wax (The BOS stuff, no matter how thin or thick, is difficult to remove IMO compared to the Carnauba, and bum shoulders don't lie!  )


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Ripsnort said:


> *Yep, good info in this thread.
> Clay=By hand
> Removal of product=by hand.
> 
> FYI< Personally I'm not too wild about Griots liquid wax(BOS), but I love their carnauba wax (The BOS stuff, no matter how thin or thick, is difficult to remove IMO compared to the Carnauba, and bum shoulders don't lie!  ) *


I bought the kit, so I will give BOS a try. I wanted the clay and pads so the kit made sense:thumbup:

I believe you have had success with P21S carnuba, right:dunno:


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

Yes, P21S is great, just didn't last as long as the Griots Carnauba. Make sure you dampen the application sponge a tad before you use the BOS wax, or you'll end up with concrete-like drying action on your paint.  :eeps:


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Ripsnort said:


> *Yes, P21S is great, just didn't last as long as the Griots Carnauba. Make sure you dampen the application sponge a tad before you use the BOS wax, or you'll end up with concrete-like drying action on your paint.  :eeps: *


Cool, thanks for the tip. Maybe I should add their carnuba to my order? Do they allow that?


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

Dr. Phil said:


> *Cool, thanks for the tip. Maybe I should add their carnuba to my order? Do they allow that? *


If its already shipped, then you'll have to pay shipping again for the separate order. I doubt they would change out BOS wax for the Carnauba, theres about $4 difference I believe...


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

Ripsnort said:


> *If its already shipped, then you'll have to pay shipping again for the separate order. I doubt they would change out BOS wax for the Carnauba, theres about $4 difference I believe... *


I emailed and asked to add to order, just placed it 2 hours ago. No extra shipping  They already gouge you uch: :jack:


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Properly applied BOS wax is easy to apply and remove. You shouldn't need to apply water to it unless you're doing it wrong.


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *Properly applied BOS wax is easy to apply and remove. You shouldn't need to apply water to it unless you're doing it wrong. *


Doug, you and I have been over this many times. And I even offered you to come over and test it, and you denied. I've turned on many folks to BOS and most agree the removal stage of BOS wax is more difficult than the carnauba. I think your blind faith in Griots clutters your vision sometimes. Mark won't let you model the new wig for the cover of their magazine, so give it up!


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Is any of the Griot's waxes going to stain black trim?
Both waxes need to completely dry to remove, right?


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

F1Crazy said:


> *Is any of the Griot's waxes going to stain black trim?
> Both waxes need to completely dry to remove, right? *


Good quesiton, black trim affect:dunno:

Haus, Rip jump in PLEASE


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

Dr. Phil said:


> *Good quesiton, black trim affect:dunno:
> 
> Haus, Rip jump in PLEASE  *


One of the nice things is BOS does NOT leave a residue. Phil, I'm sure you're aware of how Blitz does. I agree that BOS is harder to remove than Carnauba but if applied thinly it isn't horrible, horrible. For BOS you let dry to a light haze. When using Blitz, I do the entire car and then remove.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *One of the nice things is BOS does NOT leave a residue. Phil, I'm sure you're aware of how Blitz does. I agree that BOS is harder to remove than Carnauba but if applied thinly it isn't horrible, horrible. For BOS you let dry to a light haze. When using Blitz, I do the entire car and then remove. *


Thanks John, this is good news:thumbup: I added the Griot carnuba to my order and am thinking I will use it as a supplement on the flat surfaces. BOS on the sides and other trim affected areas.

Yes, I have had to do the post Blitz peanut butter application :eeps:


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

Dr. Phil said:


> *Thanks John, this is good news:thumbup: I added the Griot carnuba to my order and am thinking I will use it as a supplement on the flat surfaces. BOS on the sides and other trim affected areas.
> 
> Yes, I have had to do the post Blitz peanut butter application :eeps:  *


I'm sure the Carnuaba that Rip uses from Griots is great and will probably get some myself after exhausting my current supply. I'd defer to whatever Rip says since his car is black and mine easy silver.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *I'm sure the Carnuaba that Rip uses from Griots is great and will probably get some myself after exhausting my current supply. I'd defer to whatever Rip says since his car is black and mine easy silver. *


Rip is the black paint master for sure. I should fly him in for a consult 

I will have both waxes to test so I will be able to share some insight:thumbup:


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## cwpa (May 30, 2002)

*Klasse is best for black BMWs*

Goes on easily, off quickly. no streaks, doesn't discolor black vinyl trim.


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## Mark_325i (May 1, 2003)

*Griots*

I found that Best of Show was tough to remove and it stained the black plastic mouldings of my steel blue 325i. I switched to Klasse AIO and SG and am very pleased.

Also, I didn't think the Giots lasted very long, while the AIO and SG combo bead on and on, and it is a breeze to apply and remove and they do not stain the mouldings.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> *Is any of the Griot's waxes going to stain black trim?
> Both waxes need to completely dry to remove, right? *


1) Yes BOS/Carnauba will stain black plastic trim.
2) Yes you should let it dry before buffing off.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: Griots*



Mark_325i said:


> *
> Also, I didn't think the Giots lasted very long, *


I get 90 days (3 mos) out of Griots (about typical for any Carnauba based product), longer in the summer with nice weather and using Speedshine weekly.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

BOS is not hard to remove IF you apply it properly. Just like the folks that have trouble initially with the "Z", BOS takes some practice to do properly. Once you get it down it's a breeze!
It is one of the easiest waxes I've ever used BUT I nearly gave up on it my first few times using it.


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## Mark_325i (May 1, 2003)

I generally like Griots stuff. I use the speedshine (but not when I am applying SG), the car wash (smells great), the rubber dressing (lasts a decent amount of time) and the interior cleaner. My experience with the BOS was that it was too much work to apply and remove and it did not last as long as I expected (maybe because they really raise one's expectations in their catalogs). I have used P21S on top of the SG, and that looks great, and it does not stain the mouldings (for me, that was the biggest drawback of the BOS).


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Mark_325i said:


> *and it does not stain the mouldings (for me, that was the biggest drawback of the BOS). *


Agreed, staining is a PITA and makes for extra work trying to avoid it.


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *1) Yes BOS/Carnauba will stain black plastic trim.
> *


I'll cede to what you say since you have more experience with it, but, in all honesty, I don't remember white haze on my rubber or black trim, although, I don't have much black trim.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

johnlew said:


> *I'll cede to what you say since you have more experience with it, but, in all honesty, I don't remember white haze on my rubber or black trim, although, I don't have much black trim. *


Sadly I can show ya pics bro..


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *Sadly I can show ya pics bro.. *


  

Is there no easy answer OK, what is the best non peanut butter application to clean it off and/or prevent it from occuring.

Also Doug, could you detail for me your BOS application technique to help shorten my learning curve:dunno: :thumbup: TIA


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Black Again?

http://www.properautocare.com/blacagextrim.html


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> *Black Again?
> 
> http://www.properautocare.com/blacagextrim.html *


I'm not a proponent of using paints or dyes to make my trim look good.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Dr. Phil said:


> *
> 
> Is there no easy answer OK, what is the best non peanut butter application to clean it off and/or prevent it from occuring.
> 
> Also Doug, could you detail for me your BOS application technique to help shorten my learning curve:dunno: :thumbup: TIA *


THE best way is to not get it on the trim in the first place...mask off or remove the trim prior to waxing. I also know some people that hose the black trim in Griots Vinly and Rubber dressing before waxing so it's so darn slippery the wax cant adhere to it.

If ya got it an Art eraser, the white kind, works good if it's not real heavy. Peanut oil, car wash, and some adhesive and bug and tar removers works.

I'll take some digital photos of my wax application process and write something up.


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## Dr. Phil (Dec 19, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *THE best way is to not get it on the trim in the first place...mask off or remove the trim prior to waxing. I also know some people that hose the black trim in Griots Vinly and Rubber dressing before waxing so it's so darn slippery the wax cant adhere to it.
> 
> If ya got it an Art eraser, the white kind, works good if it's not real heavy. Peanut oil, car wash, and some adhesive and bug and tar removers works.
> 
> I'll take some digital photos of my wax application process and write something up. *


:thumbup:

Can you use regular masking tape or does some one make a special tape for this purpose:dunno:

Duh, let me try :google: :rofl:


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Dr. Phil said:


> *:thumbup:
> 
> Can you use regular masking tape or does some one make a special tape for this purpose:dunno:
> 
> Duh, let me try :google: :rofl: *


Most folks I know use the blue painters tape because it comes off easier


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *Most folks I know use the blue painters tape because it comes off easier *


Phil, did you see this?


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I usually tape my trim before polishing to avoid damage and staining but I'd hate to do it for every waxing.

I asked the question about staining because I suspected that is the case with this wax like it is with any carnauba that has to dry completely and turns into white residue. 
This is probably the only reason I would not use it, results I've seen were promising although everything looks good on well preped paint. Going either carnauba or synthetic route I can find products that will not stain trim, are easier to work with and give top notch results. Just my $.02.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> *This is probably the only reason I would not use it, results I've seen were promising although everything looks good on well preped paint. Going either carnauba or synthetic route I can find products that will not stain trim, are easier to work with and give top notch results. Just my $.02. *


I asked the Griots gang about what causes the staining and why some waxes are more difficult to remove. They said it's actually caused by the same thing ie higher Carnauba content.

It is the Carnauba that, if over applied, causes the wax to be hard to remove AND it also causes the staining.

If you are using a Carnauba based product thats easy to remove with heavy application and/or doesn't stain it is because it has a LOWER percent of Carnauba than the other waxes...Griots Best of Show wax has one of the HIGHEST percent of Carnauba on the market so it's more difficult to remove if applied improperly (see my tutorial thread) and stains the plastic.


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

Thats simply not true, its the cleaners that cause the staining, take a look at P21s, no staining, no white residue and its one of the highest Caranuba content waxes on the market, in fact I think its No1 from most distributors?


I have asked Griots a few questions and been very unimpressed with the answers I get back, in some cases the same question spaced a few weeks apart gets a totaly new answer, try that same question next week, im not kidding

I like Griots stuff too, just dont like all the bad info they put out and the huge mark up

Check out Car Care Online (carcareonline.com) great FAQ section

High caranuba content doesnt really mean much anyway, it certainly doesnt mean durability 

of course YMMV, it usualy does.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

FalconGuy said:


> *Thats simply not true, its the cleaners that cause the staining, take a look at P21s, no staining, no white residue and its one of the highest Caranuba content waxes on the market, in fact I think its No1 from most distributors?
> 
> I have asked Griots a few questions and been very unimpressed with the answers I get back, in some cases the same question spaced a few weeks apart gets a totaly new answer, try that same question next week, im not kidding
> 
> ...


 :tsk: "Carcareonline FAQ "Under Construction", ya, those are really great answers!!! :rofl: :rofl: Hey, at least they are consistent ...consistently NOTHING :rofl:


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

He must be down for MX guy.....

If you like paying twice as much for products that naver get great reviews, dont let me stop ya

Just passing along the info, didnt mean to hit a nerve...:dunno:


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

and now for the propaganda (I have not verified the claim)from Meguiar's rep Darryl Baker:

As mentioned above (about carnuba content), there are also different grades of carnuba. Carnuba #1 is supposed to the hardest and most durable. Darryl claims that high grade carnuba is actually more durable than polymer. The problem is most commercial brands use lower grade carnubas, so even if they have high or 100% carnuba, it could be low grade.

Darryl claims that Meguiar's is the #2 purchaser in the world of carnuba #1 wax by volume. The largest buyer of carnuba #1 - Hershey's! Makes those candy bars look nice and shiny :bigpimp:


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

anything over 35% would have the consistency of a brick, anytime you see 100% you know is BS, more than half the product is solvents/oils etc

If you ever get a chance to see and hold true caranuba give it a shot, really strange looking stuff, not at all what you would expect, color varies from White to yellow and the price swing is huge between the grades

I would bet that claim they buy the most is true, I cant think of anyone who sells more wax?


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Doug, 
I agree with the statement that higher carnauba content may make wax harder to apply but I don’t buy it that it stains trim. First, all carnauba waxes would stain trim, second there are companies that disclose carnauba content as very high and still their waxes don’t stain trim. 

There are a lot of myths about carnauba and more carnauba=better wax is one of them.
It’s a known fact that you can’t make waxes that contain 100% carnauba per volume simply because wax like that is hard like brick and there is no way to apply it. Claim like that either mean that the wax used is a true Brazilian carnauba or is marketing BS.

The best waxes contain 30-37% carnauba. Higher content of carnauba may increase durability but not shine.
There is a lot more that it takes to make a great wax than a high carnauba content. Quality of the ingredients is highly important. Some companies go as far as using purified No.1 yellow, so called ivory carnauba. 
Carnauba wax itself acts mainly as emulsion for all other ingredients. There are shine providing polymers and also solvents, carrying and drying agents and all other stuff. Sometimes beeswax is blended in because it gives better shine. Creating wax is a trade off, certain ingredients will make it more durable but affect the shine and clarity, etc. The blend of the quality ingredients is the key and no company will give you their formula.

Also I think it’s worth mentioning that liquid waxes contain less carnauba than their paste siblings do simply because more solvents are needed to keep them in liquid state.

I don’t know what causes staining, it’s not carnauba and my guess is it’s one of the ingredients allowing application.


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

FalconGuy said:


> *I would bet that claim they buy the most is true, I cant think of anyone who sells more wax? *


That's what I was wondering - they may buy the most, but if it spread over many more bottles of product, that doesn't necessarily mean there is more content per product


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

FalconGuy, 
I wouldn't necessarily trust everything that any of the wax selling places tell me. Larry Reynolds from Car Care Online also has been known to be wrong. 
I know that you've done your research and I think most of us can determine false claims after all the time we've spend caring for our cars.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

For carcareonline.com information about waxes...

http://www.carcareonline.com/viewarticle.aspx?art=9


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

FalconGuy said:


> *
> If you like paying twice as much for products that naver get great reviews, dont let me stop ya
> *


So nearly every car in Griots catalogs are winners of MAJOR Concour events such as Pebble Beach.

That's all the "review" I need, that and my own personal experience (and best in class trophy)

I don't need some reseller that carries a rival brand to tell me a product is not to their liking.

When someone shows up that develops, manufacturers, and sells their own product (like Griots and Zaino) as well as has major contest winners lining up to be in their catalog I'll take their "reviews" seriously.

IMHO and YES my opinion is biased.

EDIT: Oh and "Falconguy" there are less expensive cars on the market and BMW has received some bad reviews...Why do you own one?


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Before we turn this discussion into flame war I think it's good that we share our knowledge and experience and want to learn more, this why we're here, aren't we? 

I don't want to pimp or bash any product but just give some useful info.


Funny thing is that almost nobody here uses Meguiar's waxes and glazes but they are used the most by concours events winners.
It's not the product but technique that makes the difference! (I may be repeating this after Rip :dunno: )


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

F1Crazy said:


> *Before we turn this discussion into flame war I think it's good that we share our knowledge and experience and want to learn more, this why we're here, aren't we?
> 
> I don't want to pimp or bash any product but just give some useful info.
> 
> ...


I used Meguiar's polishes on my 540, heavy cut, medium cut, etc. They were OK I suppose, but they wrecked my application pads being oil based. I couldn't wash the crap out. Griot's OTOH, washed out beautifully with soap and water allowing me to reuse my pads with confidence. My .02. Maybe you can see the Meguiar's stuff behind the Griot's BOS and polish.


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## FalconGuy (Sep 27, 2002)

So nearly every car in Griots catalogs are winners of MAJOR Concour events such as Pebble Beach. 

That's all the "review" I need, that and my own personal experience (and best in class trophy) 

I don't need some reseller that carries a rival brand to tell me a product is not to their liking. 


I think most would aggree that a concours winners are more prep than product as the owners are even more anal than most here

I still stand firm that the Griots line is not well reviewed in any product comparison test I have seen.... I can point you the majors

I also agree that tests dont make up my mind in many cases to buy a product, but they do help me to decide if I would try it

Im kind of surprised at the response, I suppose If I had invested what some here have in that product line i would be upset too, like I said I didnt mean to hit a nerve

Haus, if you havent tried P21S/S100 give it a shot....

You wont find anyone touting Griots other than Griots and people who feel like more $$$ must be more better good, imho but you know what they say about opinions

Now back to work..... so I can make more cash to buy the silly stuff I waste MY money on....


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> *Before we turn this discussion into flame war I think it's good that we share our knowledge and experience and want to learn more, this why we're here, aren't we?
> 
> I don't want to pimp or bash any product but just give some useful info.
> 
> ...


2nd that. I actually use products from a variety of vendors. There are a lot of good products out there and there is usually no case where there is just one right answer.

I actually used a Meguiar's wax on my car for the recent contest, but I didn't recommend it because it's not available at just any store. In fact, you won't even find it on the Meguiar's web site. If you guys are interested, I'll tell you more about it.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

scottn2retro said:


> *I actually used a Meguiar's wax on my car for the recent contest, but I didn't recommend it because it's not available at just any store. In fact, you won't even find it on the Meguiar's web site. If you guys are interested, I'll tell you more about it. *


Go ahead, spill the beans, what's that secret ingredient in your arsenal?


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

With all the different waxes, glazes, polishes, cleaners and techniques there is hundreds of possible combinations. 

I seriously doubt there is one "BEST" solution to detailing a car.


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## daghostryder (Feb 25, 2003)

so true. I think it comes down to personal taste and area. I personally live in MD and I like th combo of Klass and Souveran on black. A little extra work but nothing else like it to me.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> *With all the different waxes, glazes, polishes, cleaners and techniques there is hundreds of possible combinations.
> 
> I seriously doubt there is one "BEST" solution to detailing a car. *


Absolutely! :thumbup: So I'm not and have not, if you re-read my comments, ever said Griots "are the best". I agree 100% with Rip and others that prep is 99% of a successful detail. I'm also not trying to flame anyone. I have had excellent results with most of Griots products, if you search you will find where I recommend against some of their stuff as well.


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> *Go ahead, spill the beans, what's that secret ingredient in your arsenal? *


It's Express Wax from the Meguiar's Detailer line of products (a line of products designed for high volume detailing with newer formulations of their older products). I put notes from a seminar on that line on this thread (long):
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13367&highlight=carnuba+store

Express Wax is VERY liquid in form - about like milk after well shaken (the ingredients do separate after sitting awhile) - much more liquid than 'Liquid' Gold Class, so very easy to apply. In fact, I was told it can be sprayed on (although I haven't tried that).

It comes off easy by hand unless left on for a long time (like if you miss a spot and find it later). This stuff is supposed to be easy, shiny, smooth and durable - sounds too good to be true.

I don't know about the durability (my car is too pampered to be a good judge) and with a silver car it would hard to rate the shine, but Kaz and SONET both agree the stuff feels very smooth. We like it much better than the Gold Class we tried next to it on a spot.

Verdict, we liked it (so far) - the 'problems': The smallest size it is sold in is a gallon (about $27) and unless you know about it or where to get it, you can't. I'm not sure if Meguiar's will sell it to you like their consumer products, but you could check with them to find out. Carnuba Store does have and will sell it to you.


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

scottn2retro said:


> *It's Express Wax from the Meguiar's Detailer line of products (a line of products designed for high volume detailing with newer formulations of their older products). I put notes from a seminar on that line on this thread (long):
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13367&highlight=carnuba+store
> 
> Express Wax is VERY liquid in form - about like milk after well shaken (the ingredients do separate after sitting awhile) - much more liquid than 'Liquid' Gold Class, so very easy to apply. In fact, I was told it can be sprayed on (although I haven't tried that).
> ...


Sounds a bit like a spray detailer like SpeedShine but probably with more wax.


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

johnlew said:


> *Sounds a bit like a spray detailer like SpeedShine but probably with more wax. *


Meguair's Quik Wax might be like that (I haven't used it), but this is definitely a wax product. It's very liquid, but opaque and yellow. After applied, it sets on the car and hazes just like any other wax. And if left on a while, takes some real elbow grease to get it off.

Has anybody used Meguiar's Quik Wax? I know it comes in a spray bottle, but I don't know how thin/clear it is.

There are no pics, but here is the link to the Carnuba Store and he lists the Detailer's line of products they have:
http://www.detailingdepot.com

If you go to the article that johnlew posted the link to earlier in the thread, in the background of some of the pics there is a black rack with 5 gallon dispenser containers. Those are from the Detailer's line. On top, the pink stuff may be Final Detailer and the green stuff may be All purpose cleaner.


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## mwette (Sep 16, 2002)

So scottn2retro,

What do you use for your paint? I am curious.

I have been sticking to Meguiar's for the paint (mirror glaze #7, hi-tech yellow #26). I need to get better but I'm looking for a deep "colored glass" look.

Matt


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

mwette said:


> *What do you use for your paint? I am curious.
> Matt *


With a silver car that is always covered and garage kept, I'm probably not the right person to make recommendations on a dark colored car. The guys here with jet black or other dark colors that can successfully remove their swirl marks are the guys you want to get opinions from.

I remember Intermezzo telling me he thought carnuba gave the best look on black and dark colors while polymers looked good on lighter colors, but Alex showed some stunning pics of his car one time with Zaino (a polymer). If your car is swirl mark prone, I think a machine like a Porter Cable is almost mandatory. Prevention of swirl marks is key. When you wash, use a 2 bucket method. If you use a car cover, be sure to use a duster and quick detailer before throwing the cover on (a co-worker of mine made a mess of a black car by using a car cover over road dust).

As far as what we used on my car, here are the initial conditions: pretty much a new silver car (2200 miles, new paint) that is garage kept (not a lot of sun), but had been at the dealer for close to 6 months before I bought it (a lot of fallout). 
Considering the above, we clayed the car. And clayed it again. Oh, then we clayed it again. I have 3 clays: Griot's (mild), Clay Magic blue (average) and Meguair's C-2000 (sticky as hell). Griot's is good to start with and used it on all the windows as well (remember, when attacking anything paint related to start with the mildest product first and work up to more aggressive products). Anything it left behind, we'd try the Clay Magic and if that wouldn't pull it up, we'd hit it with the Meguiar's. After all the claying, considering it is fairly new paint (and a silver car), we didn't use a cleaner wax and just went to the Meguiar's Deep Crystal Polish in the burgandy bottle that you can get at any Kragen's, etc. It is a very low aggression polish (and sometimes after you've worked on a spot long enough, you wished it was a little more aggressive), but with fairly new paint and with the thicknesses of clear coat, very low aggression I think was appropriate. After that, the Meguiar's Express Wax as described above.

Again, I'm sure there are dozens of products that could have yielded the same results. A lot of it comes down to methodology & technique, your level of acceptance, patience and just good ol' hard work. 

Matt, you may want to look for the thread in this forum re: paint care clinic on Sunday, July 27th. Also look up a thread on Carnuba Store Detailing clinics. I took notes on seminars given by Meguiar's reps on the Mirror Glaze line. The nice thing about Carnuba Store is that along with Meguiar's, they carry stuff by 3M, Autoglym, Mother's, Connoly (considered the best leather care), etc, etc, etc. And Marco can make some good recommendations from the products that he has.


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## Nick T. (Feb 22, 2003)

*Thanks guys!* This is the most entertaining and hilarious thread that I've read in a long time. Of course it's also the least informative and objective thread also. However, I've only been following the Bimmerfest detailing forum for a short while, and maybe threads such as this one are common here.

There are a couple of posters here that obviously have the experience and know what they are talking about, but there are about 75 posts in the thread. If you haven't tried a product it would be helpful if you'd say, "I've heard" or "people seem to think" instead of making statements as though they are fact.

*Excellence in appearance lies not in the product used, but in the methods and techniques used!* IMO an experienced detailer who has experimented with method and technique could obtain outstanding results on 15 y.o. Geo Metro using only dog shit poop and old Levi's for product and tools - - - while an inexperienced and unknowing detailer can turn a $20,000 paint job into trash in half a day using the "best" product and tools available.

Of all the detailing products and tools (shampoos, compounds, polishes, cleaners, glazes, waxes, sealants, QDs, mitts, towels, applicators, buffers, etc.) the is no single brand, or line, or label that is the "best" - - most are different, some are identical, but there is no best. If one were "best" the others wouldn't be on the shelves.

Some things about detailing are _fact_ and others are _opinion_. It is _fact_ that Zaino is more reflective and durable than carnauba. It is _fact_ that a rotary buffer has a steep learning curve while a random orbital buffer is pretty safe in the hands of a beginner. It is _opinion_ that Griot's products are overpriced because of their excessive advertising costs. Much of what you read in the auto forums is _opinion_ (and much of that is only hearsay opinion), but it's presented as _fact_. Learn to tell the difference between _fact_ and _opinion_.

If you're offended by my outspokenness, then feel free to retaliate with your flames!


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Nick, 
You know very well that threads like this one are quite common on any car board, bimmerfest isn't any different. 

I'm still a newbie here but enjoy this board and this forum simply because most people here are rather friendly and helpful, I haven't seen many trolls and flame wars are almost non-existent.


I hope you are here to stay, just enjoy it


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## Nick T. (Feb 22, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> *I hope you are here to stay, just enjoy it  *


 Oh, I'm here to stay, and to enjoy.

IMO the bimmerfest Z-Series forum is the best on the internet! <IMG SRC=http://home.jps.net/~ntaylor/images/thumbs-up3.gif>


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Hey Nick, I think I've read in one of your posts that you gave up on Zaino or maybe I misunderstood something :dunno: ?

If that's the case tell me what's up, just feeling like a change?


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## Nick T. (Feb 22, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> *Hey Nick, I think I've read in one of your posts that you gave up on Zaino or maybe I misunderstood something :dunno: ?
> 
> If that's the case tell me what's up, just feeling like a change? *


 Giving up on Zaino wouldn't be my choice of words.

My roadster is my first black car - I spent a couple of months experimenting on it with various products and methods and decided to go the Zaino route. Played with Zaino for almost a year attempting to improve my techniques, then a few months ago I realized that I hadn't done an adequate job of paint prep, so I stripped everything and did a "ground up" paint prep and started layering Zaino. Got to 30+ coats and realized that I'd become a _Zainoholic_! So, in an effort to deal with my addiction I started taking my meds again and also played with various other synthetics and waxes on top of the Zaino. As a recovering Zainoholic I've started a new sequence - one section at a time I've polished out almost all of the micro-marring, topped with 3-4 layers of either Zaino or Platinum, then started adding very thin layers of carnauba. At this point I'm about 3/4 of the way around the car and pleased with the results.

The very thin layers of carnauba don't degrade the reflectivity of the synthetic, and each layer adds a little more depth to the appearance.. The carnauba also protects the synthetics from micro-marring during QDing - Zaino is particularly susceptible to this - just walk into garage and the Zaino shows a new scratch!

In my never ending search for the elusive "perfect" look on Jet Black I feel as though I'm making a little progress - maybe 9th grade level. As far as Zaino goes, I did enough experimenting with methods and techniques that I'm close to qualifying for my masters degree in Zainology.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Nick, having just started with Zaino I'd have to say this: I'd never dare to use it on a black car!

Any of my cars get some serious round of claying, polishing, the whole "works" about every 6 months and cars are usually well prepared for waxing. I knew that with Z I'd have to be extra anal and now I know why!

I would go nuts having to deal with micromarring, swirls and scratches like black car owners do. The only way to keep the car in good shape would be to polish it on very regular basis. With Zaino to get max results you'd have to layer it again and it just doesn't make sense to me. I'd probably stick to Klasse AIO topped with some good carnauba.

Having said all that I'm going to continue trying Z out on my Steel Gray. So far I have only 3 coats of Z5 and 2 of Z2 and I'm far from being a _Zainoholic_. I'm sure there is more to come and once I'm satisfied I'm going to do a full review and post some pics.

Other cars will receive their regular portion of Klasse and P21S till my verdict is out.


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## Nick T. (Feb 22, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> *I'm going to continue trying Z out on my Steel Gray. So far I have only 3 coats of Z5 and 2 of Z2 and I'm far from being a Zainoholic. *


 It's easy to say, "I'm far from being a _Zainoholic_" - - but, denial is one of the first indicators. Zaino is the most addictive recreational drug available today!

You may want to try a couple of thin coats of P21S paste on a test area of your Steel Gray - preferably where there are some compound curves. Wait 24 hours between coats. If you don't like it you can take it off easily with a Dawn/water wipe down followed by a Z-6 wipe down - but I'm betting that you'll be amazed!

In the words of Nancy Reagan, "Just say no (to Sal)!"

Good luck and have fun!


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Nick T. said:


> *
> You may want to try a couple of thin coats of P21S paste on a test area of your Steel Gray - preferably where there are some compound curves. Wait 24 hours between coats. If you don't like it you can take it off easily with a Dawn/water wipe down followed by a Z-6 wipe down - but I'm betting that you'll be amazed!
> *


The car in my signature pic has Klasse topped with P21S and I was really happy with it, just wanted to try something else.


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