# BMW M: a return to the lightweight spec car in the future?



## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

This thought or query came into my mind when i read at autoweek that ferrari is releasing a new 360 modena variant (stradale?) that weighs 2500 pounds or so (they say the normal modena is 3065) and will be available for as long as the 360 run lasts.

i.e. it is not a limited edition car but a normal "factory $25k option". (heavy sarcasm).

one cannot also help but notice the release to the US of the 911 GT3 and 911GT2 cars, both that claim as one of their main assets: lighter weight.

now, at the other end of the spectrum, the volvo R cars, the audi S cars, and MB AMG cars kinda of disregard increasing weight and push more HP. 

does anyone know or have an insider feel for the future direction of M cars?


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

That would be called the CSL, if it is ever made.

At least BMW shows some concern, unlike Audi. The Z4 is pretty good, and the new 5 is rumored to be lighter.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

Nate:

is the CSL vaporware or has it reached eurobuyers' hands already?

(like it matters to us in the US either way).


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

pdz said:


> *Nate:
> 
> is the CSL vaporware or has it reached eurobuyers' hands already?
> 
> (like it matters to us in the US either way). *


I don't think they have sold any yet, but it is confirmed for production at some point...

I hope it comes to the US


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

*CSL ain't coming*

I talked to Salkowsky at the LA Auto show (nice guy, BTW), and there are two things preventing the CSL from coming.

1. CF bumper won't pass the crash test. They might be just a strong, but they have no sheer strength. Meaning, in a collision they shatter instead of bending. This is a big no no for our mighty NHTSA, aka, mouth piece of Detroit truck makers.:thumbdwn:

2. The throttle has no airflow meter, and will not clear CAFE.

I guess at this point I'll be happy to replace my interior with the lightweight seats and such...

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*Re: CSL ain't coming*



Stuka said:


> *I talked to Salkowsky at the LA Auto show (nice guy, BTW), and there are two things preventing the CSL from coming.
> 
> 1. CF bumper won't pass the crash test. They might be just a strong, but they have no sheer strength. Meaning, in a collision they shatter instead of bending. This is a big no no for our mighty NHTSA, aka, mouth piece of Detroit truck makers.:thumbdwn:
> 
> ...


surely we cannot be the only country with such dumbass laws. i guess i should remember that we should be "lucky" just to have the same m3 the rest of the world gets.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

> *BMW M: a return to the lightweight spec car in the future?*


I think the best chance for a real lightweight M car in the near future is the M2.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

i'm really rooting for BMW here, but they're not giving me much of a chance to really root for them.

the M3 is a jewel but still a compromised car because of the pricepoint and limited R&D of the company.

the rest of the cars could hardly take repeated track laps without going into the runoff areas due to brake fade.

i'm not saying porsche or ferrari are superior, but they put more effort into satiating spec-type gearheads with the GT and challenge cars. for example, the new semi-dry watercooled engines have serious teething problems and ferrari clutches last as long as hollywood starlets. they just don't have the sheer numbers as BMW does so the complaints are heard as loudly and vociferously.

lastly: it isn't as though money and cost would be a deterrent for enthusiasts to buying true M spec roadgoing cars.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: CSL ain't coming*



pdz said:


> *surely we cannot be the only country with such dumbass laws. i guess i should remember that we should be "lucky" just to have the same m3 the rest of the world gets. *


Just the price we pay for cheap gas 

Just think how lax the British approval system is. Cars like the Caterham and Radical are road legal :thumbup:


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: CSL ain't coming*



nate328Ci said:


> *Just the price we pay for cheap gas
> 
> Just think how lax the British approval system is. Cars like the Caterham and Radical are road legal :thumbup: *


i'd love to pay UK prices for gasoline and also have full access to their slew of cars.

but, obviously, would never move there......can't be THAT great.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: CSL ain't coming*



pdz said:


> *i'd love to pay UK prices for gasoline and also have full access to their slew of cars.
> 
> but, obviously, would never move there......can't be THAT great.
> 
> *


Almost no one can afford those cars because of sky high gas prices and vehicle taxes...


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

on a slightly different note, have you seen the specifications for the WRX STi?

it is painful to look at (those spoilers are VERY subtle, aren't they?), but it is quite the OEM package.

no radio included. 

combines turbocharging with variable valve timing. 

i know that i am never going to hear the end of it if it turns out to be heavier than nate's 328, though.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

> the M3 is a jewel but still a compromised car because of the pricepoint and limited R&D of the company.


What are you trying to say here? ...limited R&D of the company... what?



> the rest of the cars could hardly take repeated track laps without going into the runoff areas due to brake fade.


What cars are you talking about?



> lastly: it isn't as though money and cost would be a deterrent for enthusiasts to buying true M spec roadgoing cars.


What are true "M spec roadgoing cars"? Are you trying to say that the E46 M3 with the S54 engine is not a true M spec car? I think those of us who have been around M cars for some years would take exception to this.

There is interest in making the car lighter, but that has nothing to do with it's viability as an M spec car. Now if you are attempting to compare the M3 with the 911 Cup cars, you've jumped up a few levels in price. The CSL will happen this year, but it is not intended for the US market.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

SteveT said:


> *What are you trying to say here? ...limited R&D of the company... what?
> 
> What cars are you talking about?
> 
> ...


what am i talking about?

a no excuses car that can complement the M engines, that's what i'm talking about. if you think the current e46m3 isn't more of a gt than a sports platform, then you can feel free to correct me. the CSL exists because the e46m3 is not "pure".

and the difference between the two in laptimes at the 'ring is about 30 seconds. and it's not all HP.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

pdz said:


> *what am i talking about?
> 
> a no excuses car that can complement the M engines, that's what i'm talking about. if you think the current e46m3 isn't more of a gt than a sports platform, then you can feel free to correct me. the CSL exists because the e46m3 is not "pure".
> 
> and the difference between the two in laptimes at the 'ring is about 30 seconds. and it's not all HP. *


OK, I understand, but you went a long way around to say that. The bottom line is a car with more edge, that's lighter and targeted more directly at the competition market. The CSL will do that, but they will never sell as many CSL's as they have or will M3's. Where does the comment about limited R&D of the company come from. I don't see how that fits. Regardless of whether the E46 M3 satisfies you, it is one great car that the driver better respect. To imply there is no edge there is very wrong.

BMW Car Magazine is talking like they expect the CSL this year.

The Cup cars are really competition cars that can be driven on the street. BMW (I don't think) has ever built a car quite like that. People like PTG and Schnitzer have typically made the BMW production car into a raceable automobile. I always thought of it two different philosophies, both of which can be successful. The M3 CSL may be a first in that regard.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

that was precisely what i was getting at; BMW is concentrating on volume right now and that is understandable as a smaller marque trying to remain independent and to fill market niches.

that said, you would think that the same people who set the price for the new rolls or the new 760Li would also see that if they priced the CSL at whatever asking price in the US (given it would pass our inane bumper test and our stricter emissions), it would sellout. if the product is there, people will buy it because BMW makes great cars.

i had my E46M3 on order, but gave my allocation to someone else. i understand what i am missing as i have driven both transmissions in the car and it is a fine automobile, but i am looking for something edgier in the next automobile and i would like to say BMW offers it. it doesn't in the US....yet....


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