# Any 3 series owners contemplating a Z4?



## Newbie325cic (Sep 18, 2002)

Just curious as to what the current 3 series owners think...


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## Guest84 (Dec 21, 2001)

I did for a moment or two...then I realized the reason I didn't go with a Z3 is because _I need a back seat_.

I find the styling quite attracting, but would I find it attractive in 5...10 years like the E36 or E46? Doubt it.


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## Pete Teoh (Jan 27, 2002)

Maybe as a second car when the 325i is paid off. Then again, maybe an M1 or M2 might be the car to get at that time.
:dunno:


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

Are you kidding me? I can't get past the flame surface crap - the lines on this car are just too busy. It may be fun to drive but I doubt this car will age well. Plus, once you get to that pricing territory, the Boxster begins to look very attractive.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

people who buy 3er's are (generally) looking for a conservatively styled, semi-sporty daily driver with creature comfort features and 4-5 seat convenience. the z4 is on the opposite end of the spectrum and is ugly as hell.


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

After a test drive in a 2.5 Z4, that's a big negative. :thumbdwn: What BMW is asking (MSRP) is insane. Add the options and it can cost more than a 330Ci, which I rather have over an impractical roadster. :thumbdwn:


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2002)

IMO, there are only two recent BMWs uglier than the Z4. They are the E65/E66 7-series and the outgoing Z3.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *IMO, there are only two recent BMWs uglier than the Z4. They are the E65/E66 7-series and the outgoing Z3. *


Wow, you dislike the Z3 too, huh? I always liked it. :dunno:


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## CD-55 (Dec 19, 2001)

I love the Z4, but it is no replacement for my practical 4-door 330i. I don’t have $40K to spend on a 3rd car, such as a Z4, so I am not considering buying one.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

TD said:


> *IMO, there are only two recent BMWs uglier than the Z4. They are the E65/E66 7-series and the outgoing Z3. *


So the Z4 is moving in the right direction then!


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

Plaz said:


> *Wow, you dislike the Z3 too, huh? I always liked it. :dunno: *


Me too. I like its retro touches and clean lines. It's what a roadster should be - raw, fun, and totally impractical :lmao:


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*z4's gonna need an emergency redesign just like the E65*

while i'm sure the Z4 was "well-designed", it is too cerebral.

the great car designs that stand the test of time and become classics are not cars that need to grow on people and they are not cars that you need to be steeped into industrial design to "get".

the porshe 550 spyder? the ferrari 308GTS? the boxster? they all age well and are cohesive.

the new enzo is ugly, but at least you could argue that most of the features of the enzo are functional. the car has amazing downforce without tacky spoilers......

....what does the z4 have for its excuse other than "design uniqueness"? and at a higher pricepoint! silly german pretense and americans, while some are stupid, will dump this car on its head in about 3 years, if not sooner.


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## IndyMike (Dec 19, 2001)

Like the E65 I've grown tired of ripping it; they're both too easy a target and it just doesn't seem to be sporting anymore. 

Just another recent BMW I'm glad that I'm not in the market for.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: z4's gonna need an emergency redesign just like the E65*



pdz said:


> *while i'm sure the Z4 was "well-designed", it is too cerebral.
> 
> the great car designs that stand the test of time and become classics are not cars that need to grow on people and they are not cars that you need to be steeped into industrial design to "get".
> 
> *


perhaps bangle's influence for the z4 was picasso. maybe he's ahead of his time. :dunno: perhaps he'll be considered a "great artist/designer" after he dies. we should help him to quicken his escalation to greatness! :thumbup:


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## Mdk330i (Feb 24, 2002)

I have been thinking about it but can't justify spending the money for a car with two less seats. Although, I'm sure my mind would change if I go and test drive it. So for now, I will avoid trying it out because I know I will want it. Plus the girlfriend wants a Mini and would be mad as hell if I get the Z4.


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## JakeC (Apr 21, 2002)

Well I think that Z4 looks like it could eat a Boxster for a lunch!









Z4 is a instant classic, best art needs time to get used to, just like songs and any art.
Just think about music, some songs are so simple that you may like it at the first time you hear it, but then you start to hate it. But some songs sounds complex at the first time, but after listening that song many times, you start to like it, and you like it longer.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

I like the Z4, but a nicely equipped 3.0i costs as much as my 530i did. And I wouldn't want a ragtop as a daily driver, at least not in St. Louis where it gets pretty cold. 

My next car is an M3. I'm power saving for the next year and will sell my 323i to get a '04 Carbon/Cinnamon M3 (and keeping the 5er).


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

If I still lived in the States, and still had my former E46 M3, I'd certainly dump my former 325i in favor of a Z4 (although I find it a bit pricey).


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## E46 in Philly (Mar 5, 2002)

JakeC said:


> *Z4 is a instant classic, best art needs time to get used to, just like songs and any art. Just think about music, some songs are so simple that you may like it at the first time you hear it, but then you start to hate it. But some songs sounds complex at the first time, but after listening that song many times, you start to like it, and you like it longer. *


When I think of all the beautiful Ferraris, Porsches, Mercedes, BMW's, etc. that I love - I recall loving them at first sight (or at the very least LIKING them at first sight). I think the idea that good design has to grow on you is bull. The same argument was made about the 7, which seems to get more bloated each time I look at it. Poor design grows on you too - like a rash.

I don't always like a song the first time I hear it, but if it is a song that I grow to love my initial reaction is usually moderate interest or apathy - not strong dislike. When any form of art grows on you over time there is most often an initial appeal or interest that intensifies, not a revulsion that must be reversed.


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*agree re: car design.*

automobile design that does not appeal immediately.......does not last very long.

and i think the answer to the viability of the Z4 will be truly found in its lease residuals or the residuals they hold after a year.

and those residuals are going to be heavily influenced by the discounting that is going to go on when sales are slow....just wait.


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## traveler (Oct 29, 2002)

I was all set to bite the bullet and make the trade from an '02 330ci to the Z4 3.0 but there's no way to justify the almost $5000 increase in base price. Really enjoyed driving the car but the additional cost just doesn't make sense. Not getting any more car with the z4 in terms of performance, that I can see. Handles a little differently but essentially the same car with two less seats.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2002)

*Re: agree re: car design.*



pdz said:


> *automobile design that does not appeal immediately.......does not last very long.
> 
> and i think the answer to the viability of the Z4 will be truly found in its lease residuals or the residuals they hold after a year.
> 
> and those residuals are going to be heavily influenced by the discounting that is going to go on when sales are slow....just wait. *


Hell, the special lease rates have already started on the Z4.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: agree re: car design.*



TD said:


> *Hell, the special lease rates have already started on the Z4. *


And nearly every other BMW.

I didn't have to "get used" to the Z4 to like it -- I liked it immediately. I think it is bold contemporary styling, while still being classic. I think its design will last -- just as I think the Z3's has.

:dunno:


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## Newbie325cic (Sep 18, 2002)

*Z4*

I also really like the Z4, and can appreciate it's bold styling :thumbup: The interesting thing is that seeing all of the spyshots, and actual photos, I wasn't the least bit interested. In fact I thought it was horrendous. That all changed after I saw it in person:eeps: In fact, the black/beige and maldives/beige Z4's looked incredible...one of the best looking cars yet. The other funny thing is that everyone I've talked to who doesn't know much about the bmw heritage or evolution, has thought the car looked exemplary! :dunno:


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*is there a reason.....*

....why they could not have packaged the excellent new driving dynamics into a package more closely resembling the z8?

that would guarantee to sell like gangbusters.

this current design isn't really guaranteed to sell until the car comparisons come out, and at that point, we better hope it can keep up with and/or beat out the boxster. time will show that ugly designs can be compensated for by sheer performance. the X5 demonstrates this. it's still ungainly looking, but there is not denying that it's one of the more superb SAVs out there.

hope the z4 can do that.


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## Newbie325cic (Sep 18, 2002)

*Re: Z4*



Newbie325cic said:


> *I also really like the Z4, and can appreciate it's bold styling :thumbup: The interesting thing is that seeing all of the spyshots, and actual photos, I wasn't the least bit interested. In fact I thought it was horrendous. That all changed after I saw it in person:eeps: In fact, the black/beige and maldives/beige Z4's looked incredible...one of the best looking cars yet. The other funny thing is that everyone I've talked to who doesn't know much about the bmw heritage or evolution, has thought the car looked exemplary! :dunno: *


One more note...I strongly believe that the color of this car is a BIG factor in it's appearance.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: is there a reason.....*



pdz said:


> *....why they could not have packaged the excellent new driving dynamics into a package more closely resembling the z8?
> 
> that would guarantee to sell like gangbusters. *


Disagree 100%.

I think the Z4 is 10x BETTER looking than the Z8.


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## E46 in Philly (Mar 5, 2002)

I can see how some people would be attracted to the design of the Z4 - it's just not for me. Luckily, I'm not in the market for a small two-seater (and won't be any time soon). I'm also not in the market for a 7 series, which is another good thing since I think that car looks horrendous. I see the Z4 as a radical design that doesn't happen to appeal to me, I see the 7 as simply a case of poor design.

What worries me is that these designs which are at best unusual and at worst lousy will carry over into the car's that I am likely to be looking at in the next three to five years: the 3's and 5's.

I think BMW's current attitude towards styling sucks. That attitude is:

1) Current buyers be damned we're concerned about future buyers - I can somewhat appreciate the thought process here, but they've taken it way too far.

2) These designs will grow on people - Bullshit. Truly great designs look good now AND later.

3) Different is more important than beautiful - This is where they've really gone off the tracks. Different CAN be a positive quality, but beauty IS positive and should be sought out first. If the design can be both beatiful and different great, but don't sacrifice the former in the name of the latter.

It is my hope that these designs will turn enough people off to hurt sales and thus alter BMW's design philosophy. Otherwise I'm going to end up struggling over cars that I love to drive and hate to look at (and thus I'll be hungry for alternatives).


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: is there a reason.....*



Plaz said:


> *Disagree 100%.
> 
> I think the Z4 is 10x BETTER looking than the Z8. *


Um, are you hitting the crack pipe, Plaz? You're saying one of the ugliest vehicles out there is 10X better looking than one of the most attractive vehicles ever built. That's nuts.


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## E46 in Philly (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: is there a reason.....*



Plaz said:


> *Disagree 100%.
> 
> I think the Z4 is 10x BETTER looking than the Z8. *


WOW, I really couldn't disagree more. I guess it just goes to show you, different strokes for different folks! :dunno:

I guess in about a year or so once sales of the new products settle into more normal patterns we'll get to see how people are voting with their pocket books. In the end, that will dictate whether BMW design continues down this road or not.


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

*Re: Re: is there a reason.....*



Plaz said:


> *Disagree 100%.
> 
> I think the Z4 is 10x BETTER looking than the Z8. *


The Z8 never had to grow on me - it is totally gorgeous form every angle!! I spent at least 1/2 hour drooling over it at the last auto show - I couldn't take my eyes off it.


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## RaceTripper (Apr 12, 2002)

I think the Z4 looks great, but it's not nearly as timeless and enduring in style as the Z8. I didn't lilke the Z4 until I saw it in person. I've loved the Z8, since it's inception, in every context I've found it.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: is there a reason.....*



TD said:


> *Um, are you hitting the crack pipe, Plaz? You're saying one of the ugliest vehicles out there is 10X better looking than one of the most attractive vehicles ever built. That's nuts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:lmao: :lmao:

Nope, no crack. Just my opinion. I've never really though the z8 was particularly attractive. A little too bulbous looking for me -- and a little too retro. Especially the rear. Looks like an old 928 -- great looking in the 80's, but pretty dated looking now. I also have never liked the centered gauge cluster idea... doesn't make sense to me.

The Z4, on the other hand, is breathtakingly gorgeous, IMO.

:dunno:


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## JakeC (Apr 21, 2002)

I like Z4 more than Z8, both are nice cars and very different. Z8 is real retrocar, Z4 modern roadster.

Well I have hated many cars and started to like them later, and I still like them. So some designs takes time to get used to, at least for me.


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## MMAfia (Sep 27, 2002)

hahaha... i think the new z4 looks tight. didn't like it at first, but now i do. same for the new 7- in fact, i like it so much that i got one.

in fact, i really like bmw's new direction in styling... all started from the Z9 concepts, which i also didn't get at first, but now am totally in love with.


























































but these subjective arguments never lead anywhere. i have the same arguments with my friends. some of them just don't like latina girls. i do. i will never understand why they don't think some of them are hot. we've argued hundreds of hours about it. but it's all based on subjective premises, so we argue and argue until we just get tired of arguing. ultimately, it turns into a futile waste of energy as our opinions don't change based on the arguments.

btw- the pix of the Z9 are close to what the new 6 will look like undisguised. BMW AG disclosed that the 2 will share numerous components. all the spy pics of the new 6 (all of them being pix of a heavily cladded/disguised preproduction black model, sometimes fitted with different rims, including some BBS rims) seem to indicate the validity of BMW AG's claim.

MMAfia


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

this, i could live with...









this, i could not...


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2002)

Actually, a damn interesting contrast, IMO, is...

THIS









compared to

THIS


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

actually i would like to see the front of the z4 mated with the back of the z9. the best of both worlds, or rather the absence of the worst of both worlds.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2002)

ride365 said:


> *actually i would like to see the front of the z4 mated with the back of the z9. the best of both worlds, or rather the absence of the worst of both worlds. *


I am neutral to both rears and hate both fronts. But the Z9 sides ar infinitely preferable to the Z4 sides.


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

yeah i think this is a pretty good styling match. [btw i used to hate the z4 front too]


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*needs cleaner lines...*

as TD points out, if the Z4 had cleaner lines, it would be more of a future classic.

as it is, it's too toyota celicky and it will not age gracefully.

but again, we cannot prove that, sales and lease residuals and money factors on leases (i.e. supersubsidized ones) will bear whether or not mainstream is dead on or if the "my car as art" aficionados are correct.

it does not really take much of an intellect powerhouse to judge a car's design fellas, hence the hubris in BMW's need to intellectualize car design.


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## plugot (Mar 14, 2002)

*Designing for designers*

Good design doesn't need to be explained. It grabs you. Look at the original Jaguar E-type. Forty years after its introduction it's still gorgeous. Then look at a Pontiac Aztek. Ugly from the first drawing. The problem, of course, is that designers don't design for the buyers, they design for each other. At some point the consumer gets left out in the cold. In my work I've dealt with Hollywood design companies that create titles and video graphics. Inevitably when debuting a new concept they'll stack the presentation with designers who have to explain to the client why the presentation works when quite clearly the client doesn't get it. All too often the client will eventually buy into the explanation because they don't want to appear to be out of it or unhip. I've seen some pretty horrible campaigns emerge out of these sessions. It's probably the design equivalent of the "Emperor's New Clothes."

Personally I like the front of the Z4, it's the back that really loses it. Admittedly, exposure to a particular design over time can dull one's initial reaction. I never liked the back end of the current (C5) Corvette, but ended up getting one anyway. Still, it wasn't my favorite view of the car. If you look at the ads for the Z4, they highlight the aggresive front, and the eye catching side scallop and stay away from showing the back end. Even BMW seems to be embarassed by the results.

If one looks at the Z4 with the top down, the flow of the line from the folded top to the back of the trunk lid is actually very nice. It looks much better than with the top up, certainly. It's a design element that when viewed out of context on a computer on drawing board probably got the other designers all hot and bothered. But when grafted onto the final design, doesn't work. It's an example of a design element that gets a reaction from designers perhaps because of theoretical or conceptual reasons, but fails in the final execution. 
Of course, that's just my opinion. As the man used to say, "I could be wrong."


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## pdz (Nov 17, 2002)

*secondary issue: what the automotive press thinks....*

.....i think the first issue is the reaction of future buyers. and that is all over the map, as this thread demonstrates. most people who have owned 10 cars or more would probably say, however, that the z4 isn't on the road to being classic. avant garde maybe, but not classic. whatever.

the secondary issue is what the automotive press says. and you can already read taht the stylistic reviews are dreadful. pick up "CAR" or "TopGear". read the nytimes. these journals, for better or worse, have tremendous influence on the acceptance of cars. their notions imprint upon mainstream people. if they say it's ugly and people are on the fence about the styling, then they're going to find it "ugly". the only saving grace will be the handling at that point.

while i don't think it's ugly, it's just not captivating to me. it doesn't speak to me at all. if it does, it says thing like "evian", "movado" or "montblanc"...i.e. things that i have to "get". maybe it's because i'm a tap water, timex, a.t. cross kind of guy. park the z4 next to the 993 cabriolet. i think this is a good comparison (okay, mainly because i am biased toward the car that i own). which looks timeless and which one looks like it's trying damn hard?


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