# Autoxing an S2000… my impressions



## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

I had the opportunity to co-drive a friend's Honda S2000 at a regional autox event last Sunday and wanted to provide you guys with my impressions.

I have been wanting to co-drive one all season but just didn't have the opportunity until now. From an autox perspective, I have heard nothing but good things about this car; how quick the steering is, how well it rotates, how light and nibble the car feels&#8230; but most importantly I wanted to find out why this car is able to destroy the competition in B Stock (and in most cases even A Stock).

The Car :
- 2003 Honda S2000
- Comtech front sway bar
- Fairly new Hoosier R3S03 tires (road race compound), 225s in the front 245s in the rear

Conditions :
- It was fairly cool out, about 75 degrees and dry
- We were on a fairly grippy, non sealed, asphalt lot (Cooper Stadium in Columbus, OH)
- We ran 1st heat which meant no rubber had been laid down yet and it was a little gritty

If there is an opposite to what my car is (a 2003 BMW 330i ZHP), the Honda S2000 would be it. This car is a complete opposite in every way, it drives and feels nothing like mine. I'll be honest, after my first run I hated it. The car felt waaaay too tail happy, the car wanted to oversteer in every single corner!! Yes, the car had amazing turn-in but no matter how gently you applied the throttle coming out of the corner the back end would get squirrely.

During my second run I could have won a drift contest. :tsk: I was so frustrated after my second run that I had to just sit there by myself and try to figure out what I was doing wrong. I discovered that I was trying to drive the car like I drive mine&#8230; which just plain cannot be done!! My car does not oversteer hardly at all&#8230; I can sometimes get lift-throttle oversteer, but never, ever will I get throttle-on oversteer, which is exactly what the S2000 was doing. I'm use to getting on the gas early exiting corners and keeping my foot planted in the sweepers. The S2000 is a lot more temperamental in these areas. You have to be ready to "catch it" (counter steer) at every moment. I also noticed that if you pushed it hard in the slalom, the car would oversteer&#8230; I'm use to understeer when pushing hard in the slaloms. So to say the least, it was a handful!!

After analyzing my first few runs a little better and getting to ride along with the car owner during his runs, I was starting to learn how to better finesse the car around the course.

On my 4th run, I dialed it down a couple notches in the areas where I was noticing oversteer (which was at least half the course) and crossed the lights with a blazing time. I was amazed at how quickly I got around the course because it felt as if I was babying it in the fast sections.

I sat down and analyzed my 4th run and knew there was still a lot of time I was leaving on the course. One of the things I noticed is that I was over braking and not driving into the corners hard enough. I'm use to trying to slow down a 3300 lb pig that will understeer at corner entry if you get in too hot. On my last few runs I worked on braking harder and later to drive into the corners harder. I discovered with a combination of the car's crisp turn-in and low weight, corner entry speeds are A LOT faster then what my 330i can do. By my last run I was entering the corners a lot faster then what I thought the car could handle and the car still just carved right through it&#8230; in fact, I don't think I ever experienced understeer at corner entry, which means I never did find the limit of the car getting into the turn. I certainly found it on corner exit though!! 

Everything you've heard about these cars having no torque down low is true!! I never realized how much torque my car really had until I drove the S2000. Launching the car is where I noticed it the most, it seems as if it takes forever for the revs to climb and to get the car accelerating. IMO, that's the only real negative about the car, but all the other positives more then make up for the lack of torque.

By the end of the day I had absolutely feel in love with the car!! Yeah it was a little frustrating and difficult at first, but as long as you drive the car like it wants to be driven you'll love it&#8230; try and drive it like an E46 and it will punish you!!

We had 5 guys in B Stock, all driving S2000s. I was able to pull off a 1st place finish, 1/10th ahead of the car owner. Nate, the car owner is easily one of our top 10 drivers in our region, so it felt pretty good to be able to beat him in his own car&#8230; especially since this was my first time in an S2000. I'm trying to talk him into letting me co-drive with him next year in the Cendiv series&#8230; I'll let you guys know how that works out.

Results from 9/19 should be posted here shortly:
http://www.ovr-scca.org/eventResults/solo.asp

Here a re a few pics of me on course. Thanks Renee for snapping the photos!!





































Yes, I did spin it on one of my runs!!


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## Renee (May 20, 2004)

Nice write up Andy!! I will get you the full resolutions pics tonight.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Now you need to try an RX-8.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

JST said:


> Now you need to try an RX-8.


Clyde? :eeps:


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## dngo (Oct 16, 2002)

Very cool, congrats on the 1st place. Now just imagine what it's like to autox a completely stock S2k with the stock front bar. 

I found that getting fast times in my S2k has helped me a lot in driving my M3 faster. The M3 makes up for a lot of mistakes.

Dave


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

JST said:


> Now you need to try an RX-8.


 That's what I was thinking when I saw the thread title.



Andy said:


> Clyde? :eeps:


Sure...take a ticket and get in line with the rest.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

rumratt said:


> Nice writeup.
> 
> So overall, was it more, or less fun to drive than your car? Does it make you want to ditch the E46?


The S2000 was definitely more fun to autox then my 330i, hands down.

If I could afford a dedicated autox car, the S2000 would be it. However, I don't think I would want one as a daily driver. My 330i ZHP is by far the best car I've owned, it's a great daily driver, can hold it's own on the autox course and it really shines when you take it out on the road course. So if you're looking for one car to fit all those needs the 330i ZHP does a great job of it. The S2000 just isn't practical enough for me to be a daily driver and I think I would end up killing myself on a road course in that car (see : oversteer).

But&#8230; yes it was a lot of fun, so much in fact I'm trying to figure out if I can afford a dedicated autoxer.


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## Elwood (Dec 20, 2002)

> ... but never, ever will I get throttle-on oversteer, which is exactly what the S2000 was doing.


 hehe I was doing that this weekend! :eeps:


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

Well for those in the Jersey area, my RX-8 is available for fun runs


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> That's what I was thinking when I saw the thread title.


I was thinking he needed to try an elise next :dunno:


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

atyclb said:


> I was thinking he needed to try an elise next :dunno:


Be careful, I might take that as an invitation.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Andy said:


> The S2000 was definitely more fun to autox then my 330i, hands down.
> 
> If I could afford a dedicated autox car, the S2000 would be it. However, I don't think I would want one as a daily driver. My 330i ZHP is by far the best car I've owned, it's a great daily driver, can hold it's own on the autox course and it really shines when you take it out on the road course. So if you're looking for one car to fit all those needs the 330i ZHP does a great job of it. The S2000 just isn't practical enough for me to be a daily driver and I think I would end up killing myself on a road course in that car (see : oversteer).
> 
> But&#8230; yes it was a lot of fun, so much in fact I'm trying to figure out if I can afford a dedicated autoxer.


Ah, but an RX-8 is a great daily driver, is much better as an autocrosser, and (presumably) also kicks some ass on a road course.

Andy, you seem pretty into autocrossing, and you are certainly fast. Buying a competitive autocross car might not be a bad next step.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

JST said:


> Buying a competitive autocross car might not be a bad next step.


I agree. I really wish I would have done that sooner.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Andy said:


> I agree. I really wish I would have done that sooner.


 A nationally competitive STS Civic can be bought and built for less than some people have spent trying to "fix" their E46 M3s.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

I updated the initial post with higher resolution images. Thanks Renee!! :thumbup:


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

You did a great job of describing how it compares to a 330i. :thumbup: (now I don't have to bother driving one)  

...I need a coupe/sedan for a track car anyway, so although I'd like a S2000, there's almost no way I'd wind up buying one.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

JST said:


> Now you need to try an RX-8.


Ha!

I was about to say the same thing...

but about F125! 

You guys haven't experienced autocrossing fun until you've autocrossed an F125. :angel:

Take the difference between the E46 and the S2k... multiply it by 2 and you have the difference between the S2k and a 125 shifter kart.

I realize the index is the important thing, but the first autocross I ever ran in the shifter, I was 4 (!) seconds faster than Alex Tzortzis in his Z06.

The S2k is great, don't get me wrong.

But compared to the shifter, the S2k feels heavy, slow and dull-witted... because it is. :angel:

And talk about $$... you can have one of the fastest dedicated autocross vehicles for about $4k.

Yes... I'm an adrenaline pusher. Step on over little boy... just try it, just once. Come get hooked on F125.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

And a set of race tires costs $160, for FOUR tires.  That is enough for me to consider one.

heck a Rotax 125cc clutch kart is quicker than ost any autocross car. And even cheaper.

A guy locally runs a Briggs kart and is still pretty quick on maybe 7.5HP.


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

Andy,

Yep, I agree with your writeup 100%.

I drove Greg Obadia's car at the NEDiv's a while back. Finished second to Perry Aidelbaum despite some bad driving on day 1. Since I've driven two competetive B Stock cars (S2000, RX-8) and one totally uncompetetive B Stock car (mine), here are my thoughts.

I agree that it is tough to adjust to how hard the car will brake (WEIGHT) and how hard it will corner (ditto). I was overbraking terribly on day 1. Further exacerbating this was Greg's touchy brake pedal. I like a bit of room for modulation in my brakes whereas a lot of autocrossers (ones who are afraid to stand on the pedal?) like a very high initial bite. Well, this actually had the opposite effect on me. I kept over-braking, so instead of just braking _later_ I was just using less pedal. :tsk: I also don't think I pushed the front end once on day one - the car had so much more grip than my M3 I had to completely recalibrate. I realized I wasn't pushing hard enough in the sweepers. Mental notes for day two: Stay on the gas longer, brake later, and brake less. I managed to work it out for day two and was only a tenth or two off of Perry. We were in a stock-shock car versus Perry's with the adjustables. Not sure how much of a difference it makes.

The car is a freakin' monster in slaloms. The key to keeping the back end in line is to stay on the throttle. It doesn't have enough power to kick the back end out, but if you lift it WILL bite you. I just stayed in it and sawed at the steering. It worked! The rear end seems stable on-power no matter what you do with the steering. You're right about having no torque - what I did was get on the gas much earlier than I thought I could, and apexed VERY late. Brake late, turn in late, get on the gas right after the initial turn in. Amazing reflexes to that car.

...Still... the car was much less _fun_ than Clyde's car. Man. Clyde's car has the same reflexes (at least in feel), but it's more forgiving. Where an S2000 will snap if you lift mid-corner (say, if you're going too fast), the RX-8 will tighten the line as the rear end rotates around. Beautiful. The RX-8 has more usable power (there, I said it). The S2000 feels like a worn-out Civic when you're off the cam. The RX-8 has a nice linear torque curve and is very predictable. I imagine that in a decreasing radius turn the S2000 would be a handful - the RX-8 would be downright fun. Now the caveat is that Clyde's car has top-notch shocks. I have heard that stock-shock RX-8s are not nearly as nice.

The best summary I can think of is this: When I got out of my first run in Clyde's car, I was giggling for about 10 minutes. After my first runs in Greg's car, my brow was furrowed and I was clenching my teeth.

I wish we could have made a run at Nationals in the RX-8 this year .

John


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

racerdave said:


> You guys haven't experienced autocrossing fun until you've autocrossed an F125. :angel:


I agree the F125s look like a lot of fun, but I don't think my back would be able to handle it. I have a visualization of the steel rods in my back turning into a tuning fork (old motox accident).


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

SoloII///M said:


> Andy,
> 
> Yep, I agree with your writeup 100%.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, I wonder if my local Mazda dealer would be willing to give me a 24 hour test drive on an autox weekend.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

rumratt said:


> Ug! Somehow I need to prevent myself from looking into this. :eeps:


Three things keep me from seriously considering a kart:
1-maintenance, since you'd probably need to do most of it on your own (who are you going to take it to, the kart dealer?) 
2-the pain of towing / the cost of a towing vehicle
3-if I want to drive a kart, I can go to a local kart track and drive one for a few bucks (I'm sure they're not as good, but still...)

I'd like to hear about how I'm wrong on my point regarding maintenance if anyone has some input. :dunno:


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

PhilH said:


> Three things keep me from seriously considering a kart:
> 1-maintenance, since you'd probably need to do most of it on your own (who are you going to take it to, the kart dealer?)
> 2-the pain of towing / the cost of a towing vehicle
> 3-if I want to drive a kart, I can go to a local kart track and drive one for a few bucks (I'm sure they're not as good, but still...)
> ...


Maintenance is not evil. Yes, it's nearly the equivalent of a Mod car (or Prod car) in terms of prep, but once set up, it's not bad at all. Now, it all depends on your perspective. I crewed for defending SCCA EProd champ Jon Brakke for about 10 years. So I had 1) a very good idea of the benefits of meticulous prep and how to go about it, and 2) no aversion or fear of it.

Now, my car is in no way as perfect as his Miata's prep, but you get the point.

But yes, you *can* take your kart to the dealer for prep. There are more kart dealers than you think... some actual "shops," some just a garage at a guy's home. Some guys *do* have the shops do their in-season prep. So if you're not mechanically inclined, karts may not be for you, and the shifter is the most complicated of the lot. But if you like to tinker in the slightest, there's a lot of good info out there, and some good kart shops that can help you... heck, I have a kart that does not have a local dealer, but Greg Wright from Rapid Racing near Indy has been able to give me everything I need and provide spot-on advice over the phone when I encounter a problem. So it's very do-able from my standpoint.

And if you primarily autocross, maintenence intervals are *really* long. Sure, you need to bleed the relatively fickle kart brakes frequently, but that's easy. But things like ring, piston, etc, can go for *seasons.* The guy who finished sixth at Nats this year is on his 3rd season on the same piston and ring... and he runs it a lot.

Let's see... as for #2... towing is easy. I tow a flatbed trailer with my Ford Contour... and soon- to-be Subaru Legacy GT wagon (and very nearly a 325iT). No sweat. I store the trailer in a barn in the winter.

As for 3... I'm not sure what kind of karts are at your local track. But a shifter is a beast. Not the same animal, most likely. Like comparing a Yugo to a Z06.

Andy... I can see your point about the back. Karts are not real friendly over the bumps.

Too bad... you'd adjust in a heartbeat with your MX experience (I'm using a CR-125). Maybe you should try and fun-run one... once.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

PhilH said:


> Three things keep me from seriously considering a kart:
> 1-maintenance, since you'd probably need to do most of it on your own (who are you going to take it to, the kart dealer?)
> 2-the pain of towing / the cost of a towing vehicle
> 3-if I want to drive a kart, I can go to a local kart track and drive one for a few bucks (I'm sure they're not as good, but still...)
> ...


1- Why would that be a problem? Karts are not the most complex machines in the world.
2- Karts fit inside of regular vehicles like minivans, pickup trucks, SUVs, Scion xB, etc.
3- It's not the same at all.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

Thanks Dave, good info. :thumbup:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

And by the way, it's not like comparing a Yugo to a Z06. An F125 shifter kart is a LOT faster than a Z06.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And by the way, it's not like comparing a Yugo to a Z06. An F125 shifter kart is a LOT faster than a Z06.


 :rofl:

:thumbup:


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

PhilH said:


> Three things keep me from seriously considering a kart:
> 1-maintenance, since you'd probably need to do most of it on your own (who are you going to take it to, the kart dealer?)
> 2-the pain of towing / the cost of a towing vehicle
> 3-if I want to drive a kart, I can go to a local kart track and drive one for a few bucks (I'm sure they're not as good, but still...)
> ...


1. Maintenance is pretty easy. Even engine work. One cylinder, out in the open. Everything is small. No bending, you and a friend pick up and put it on a table. Most stuff is mechanical, not much in required electronics, just bearings and rods and such. You can even do your own tires.

2. The aforementioned Yugo can tow one. A big SUV or PU truck can carry one inside. They are SMALL. VERY small trailer to tow one.

3. You haven't driven a shifter kart. If you have a true outdoor racing kart track near you, they probably rent a 5 - 10 HP 4 stroke clutch kart. A 9.9 HP Honda powered 4 storke kart is good for maybe 55 MPH on a pretty open kart track. A 125cc (two stroke) shifter kart can do close to 120 MPH on the same track. And brakes? You can't brake too late when you first start driving one, no matter what you brain tells you is so late you can't possibly make the turn, you will have to accelerate to GET to the turn. 

And what keeps me thinking about one is the price of tires, a set of 4 for what I pay for ONE tire.


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## Fisch330ciTB (Jan 10, 2002)

JST said:


> Ah, but an RX-8 is a great daily driver, is much better as an autocrosser, *and (presumably) also kicks some ass on a road course.*


If you believe the reviewers from the Japanese Car review show Best Motoring who are all current or retired race drivers, they tested the RX-8 in their "Rotary-Reborn" DVD, it handles well, but the 330i SMG beat it on a wet Gymkhana (auto-x) course 330i also beat out the g35c. The S2000 was first by a slim margin. (They were testing for "feel" though, and were surprised at the BMW's time.)

RX-8 was also road raced at Suzuka and was beaten handily on the straights by it's nearest japanese market competitors. If needed I can watch the vid again and post what cars it raced against.

The reviewers basically said 
It needs more power to be competitive but it will be a fun track car to do laps

I think probably a good battle with a 330 which they didn't race it against). Unless they beef it up or make whatever the new rx-7 will be I'm not interested in getting one.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Fisch330ciTB said:


> If you believe the reviewers from the Japanese Car review show Best Motoring who are all current or retired race drivers, they tested the RX-8 in their "Rotary-Reborn" DVD, it handles well, but the 330i SMG beat it on a wet Gymkhana (auto-x) course 330i also beat out the g35c. The S2000 was first by a slim margin. (They were testing for "feel" though, and were surprised at the BMW's time.)


Road racers usually aren't the best autocrossers. :eeps: No version of the 330i can hold a candle to the RX-8 on an autocross course (assuming competent autocross drivers) in terms of time or feel on a wet or dry surface.



> RX-8 was also road raced at Suzuka and was beaten handily on the straights by it's nearest japanese market competitors. If needed I can watch the vid again and post what cars it raced against.
> 
> The reviewers basically said
> It needs more power to be competitive but it will be a fun track car to do laps
> ...


The Speedsource RX-8s have been doing pretty well against the Turner 330is in this years Grand Am Cup series. Of course, the cars are far from showroom stock...


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## Fzara2000 (Jan 22, 2004)

Hercules said:


> Well for those in the Jersey area, my RX-8 is available for fun runs


I might have to take you up on that offer :yikes:


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Just another shifter hijack... I *finally* got mine out for the first time this year. (I won't bore you with the details as to why). I needed to bed new front brake pads and put some time on a new piston/ring before the next auto-x.

Just as background, I have a Trulli (Tony) J2 125 chassis with a moderately tuned CR125. 

Wow. It's been a while since I drove it. Amazing. The performance of that thing takes some major adjustment. Acceleration is nice, but the lateral and braking grip is terrific. I was on two-year-old tires and it was a big-time handful, especially on a 10-turn, 0.6-mile course.

If any of you folks ever get a chance to fun-run a shifter, do it.


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

Fzara2000 said:


> I might have to take you up on that offer :yikes:


 No problem, just find me at the next event... I'm the only one with an RX-8 so it should be easy 

Everybody calls me 'Shy' 

I must warn you though -- my tires are ballddddd !! I'm postponing replacing them (since the last few auto-xes of this year are almost done) until the 18" Azenis come out -- if they are out by early next year before winter is up. I won't be driving the 8 in the winter much, so I am not too worried about waiting.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

Andy said:


> I discovered with a combination of the car's crisp turn-in and low weight, corner entry speeds are A LOT faster then what my 330i can do. By my last run I was entering the corners a lot faster then what I thought the car could handle and the car still just carved right through it&#8230;


Yep, there's no substitute for low weight....anything under 3klbs these days is unusual, it used to be the norm. My first car, a 1980 VW Rabbit, weighed in at just 1800lbs. It was great fun to toss around but had little power, only around 90 bhp IIRC.

Ed


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Andy said:


> I'm trying to talk him into letting me co-drive with him next year in the Cendiv series&#8230;


well don't rush into any hasty decisions just yet :eeps: :angel:


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> well don't rush into any hasty decisions just yet :eeps: :angel:


Why, what do you know or what do you have in mind?


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TeamZ4 said:


> well don't rush into any hasty decisions just yet :eeps: :angel:


Do you know/can you say when the next FasTrack might be posted at the SCCA's site? Feeling like an idiot checking it 10 times a day.


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## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

EdCT said:


> Yep, there's no substitute for low weight....anything under 3klbs these days is unusual, it used to be the norm. My first car, a 1980 VW Rabbit, weighed in at just 1800lbs. It was great fun to toss around but had little power, only around 90 bhp IIRC.
> 
> Ed


Hey, my first car was a '75 Rabbit! Had a blast with it


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

I'm only saying that a decision is still pending, not implying the outcome :dunno: 

it's probably at least another month or so before you see anything in FasTrack


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

EdCT said:


> Yep, there's no substitute for low weight....anything under 3klbs these days is unusual, it used to be the norm. My first car, a 1980 VW Rabbit, weighed in at just 1800lbs. It was great fun to toss around but had little power, only around 90 bhp IIRC.
> 
> Ed


You had LOTS of power. My first autocross car was a Fiat 850 Spider. About 1400 all up, with some 54 HP.


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