# My Turn - Carbon Build-up



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

totitan said:


> Thank you very much for the SIB. I printed a copy and put in the glove box. The SA at my dealer recently told me that CBU is not covered when I asked about it should my car become affected. I cant wait to hand him the SIB and watch him eat crow!


I'm not sure the SIB indicates it is anything other than a procedure to clean the CBU which is usually seen with the list of error messages and codes they indicate.

Just saying it is not a given it is covered by warranty, just that they have a method to clean it up.

The SIB at least proves they have a known issue with CBU, known symptoms, and now a known solution to clean it up. The SIB does not prevent it from happening again, so it is not a solution, just a band aid till next time.


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## totitan (May 11, 2013)

Flyingman said:


> I'm not sure the SIB indicates it is anything other than a procedure to clean the CBU which is usually seen with the list of error messages and codes they indicate.
> 
> Just saying it is not a given it is covered by warranty, just that they have a method to clean it up.
> 
> The SIB at least proves they have a known issue with CBU, known symptoms, and now a known solution to clean it up. The SIB does not prevent it from happening again, so it is not a solution, just a band aid till next time.


Flyingman This is from page 17 of the SIB:
"WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle/SAV Limited Warranty or the BMW Certified Pre-Owned Program."

Seems pretty clear to me since my car is a CPO vehicle


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

What does the "SAV" mean?


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Pierre Louis said:


> What does the "SAV" mean?


Sport Activity Vehicle. This is BMW speak for a SUV.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

KeithS said:


> Sport Activity Vehicle. This is BMW speak for a SUV.


Thanks!

"New BMW New Vehicle/SAV Limited Warranty." A vehicle is a vehicle, isn't it? Isn't an SAV already a vehicle? BMW no speaka da English too well!

Has anyone started a class action lawsuit for 335d CBU/poor emission control execution? Just wondering....

PL


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

KeithS said:


> Sport Activity Vehicle. This is BMW speak for a SUV.


BMW sales and marketing wanted to change the category they competed in- so they seem to be the only ones using the term...


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

MotoWPK said:


> This being corrected under warranty, as it should be, if it occurs again it is an indication the problem was never resolved the first time and is still subject to coverage under warranty.


Wanna bet BMWNA says 'one time courtesy to repair damage caused by blah blah'.

Still, repair parts and repair labor should come with a 2 year 24k mile warranty.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

totitan said:


> Flyingman This is from page 17 of the SIB:
> "WARRANTY INFORMATION
> Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle/SAV Limited Warranty or the BMW Certified Pre-Owned Program."
> 
> Seems pretty clear to me since my car is a CPO vehicle


Totitan, you sir are correct!:thumbup:

I'm sure some sea lawyers could interpret that wording many different ways. The OP that paid $4,000 to have this work done needs to go back with a copy of this SIB in hand and collect a refund.

But I would expect one must first have the "symptoms" as evidenced by thrown codes, SES and rough idle before they will give you the time of day. Just saying "I think I have CBU because my MPG is down and my car is doing more frequent regens" may not cause them to dig into the problem.

I'm still waiting for those codes to be thrown!:eeps:


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

*Problem Resolution*



MotoWPK said:


> This being corrected under warranty, as it should be, if it occurs again it is an indication the problem was never resolved the first time and is still subject to coverage under warranty.


The problem cannot be resolved without fundamental modifications to the emissions and intake system(s). BMW will only address the symptoms until warranty expires. You can be sure it WILL re-occur. The question is not "if," but "when."


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I think we all can agree that the SIB merely brings your vehicle back to original condition, i.e. clean. It does nothing to solve the problem of CBU.

I'm strongly in agreement with others that have posted that the PCV valve is one of the major contributors of the oily goop that collects in the intake area and build up over time. The EGR is perhaps a secondary contributor and I suspect the valve overlap is also contributing to exhaust built up into the intake area.

I fully expect I will get the "symptoms" of CBU soon and will be at my dealer with SIB in hand requesting they clean up my intake on their nickel. After that, well it may be 5-6 more years and who knows if I'll still have this car. I suspect most likely not.

Modding the PCV valve and EGR would be a good start for long term longevity against CBU, but that won't happen until after my extended warranty expires next Nov 2015.


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## totitan (May 11, 2013)

Flyingman....I agree completely with your assessment. My car just hit 63K and still hasn't had any of the CBU symptoms. I'm guessing that is because it gets driven a lot (30K since 5/13), 90% of which is at 75-85 mph. Our d also has to pull a 3 mile long, 7% grade M-F which means it probably has to work harder than most. It still gets 32 mpg even with climbing that grade everyday. I also add two oz of Wurth diesel injector cleaner & cetane boost (Wurth Art. # 0893 000 354-U) to every tank, and change the oil at 7-8000 mile intervals. I dont know if any of this helps prevent CBU, but in my case so far so good.

I would like for it to throw some codes before my CPO warranty expires in 2015 so I can take advantage of the SIB, but if it doesn't I will most likely reroute the pcv slime and block off the egr.


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## Hivolts (Nov 4, 2013)

I bought my car from a private individual and the warranty ran out in February because of age and not miles. I've requested that the dealer contact BMW of North America. I'm still in the grace period to get the extended warranty. I've told them that I would buy the extended warranty if they covered the carbon cleaning and the injector.


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## totitan (May 11, 2013)

Hivolts said:


> I bought my car from a private individual and the warranty ran out in February because of age and not miles. I've requested that the dealer contact BMW of North America. I'm still in the grace period to get the extended warranty. I've told them that I would buy the extended warranty if they covered the carbon cleaning and the injector.


Im in the same age vs miles position so this is what I intend to purchase a month before my CPO runs out

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/cont...imateprotection/extendedservicecontracts.aspx

At the link Download Extended Service Contract Coverage Guide pdf. They offer a 7 year 100K plan that should provide the coverage we want.


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## sirbikes (Aug 17, 2012)

I have the extended maintenance plan. Would cbu cleaning be covered as a maintenance procedure? I never got the extended vehicle protection, but I'm at near 80k miles now so it would have run out soon for me anyway.


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## ChasR (Aug 29, 2012)

Flyingman said:


> I fail to understand why the injector would not be covered under the warranty or maintenance, unless they have evidence you operated the vehicle improperly.:dunno:
> 
> In fact I would argue that the faulty injector must have caused the CBU due to poor combustion.


93K miles without an extended warranty.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

So, uh, allegedly 10,000 335d's sold in NA. How many posters have had injector/CBU/etc. trouble so far on the forums? Seems like its possibly a lower percentage than it appears from reading these forums, no? In Savannah, it seems that the percentage is quite high, however. One of the SA's told me the thinking is that we get crappy diesel here in Savannah. I spent a bit of time for my recent fill-up finding a "brand name" diesel pump - one of the Shell stations had on its pump: "this is not a Shell product" - I didn't get diesel there.... Shell has pipeline that goes throughout the country and may not usually get its diesel from the local refinery, dunno.

No excuse for the problems, BMW, though!

PL


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Pierre Louis said:


> So, uh, allegedly 10,000 335d's sold in NA.


No "allegedly" about it: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM364928/INRL-EA11003-49620P.pdf

9,879 to be precise; surely you will allow me to round up?


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

floydarogers said:


> No "allegedly" about it: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM364928/INRL-EA11003-49620P.pdf
> 
> 9,879 to be precise; surely you will allow me to round up?


So out of about 10,000 cars, how many do we think have had CBU/injector problems? Can't be more than a couple of hundred?? Just thinking....

PL


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## carotene (May 27, 2014)

I'd wager much, much higher than a couple of hundred. I concur with others who say it's not "if", it's "when".

My 2010 has been throwing codes since ~40k mark. I'm now at 62k. Over 20k miles, I estimate about 9 or 10 trips to the dealer. A few trips ago they cleaned the carbon and replaced all 6 injectors. Car threw a code for injectors on the way home from that repair. Back in it went. Updated the "firmware for the whole car" and test drove multiple times. Picked it up and it threw a code on the way home. Now its back in again. Can't wait to see what parts and procedures they throw at the problem this time! All I can say is thank god for CPO.

I'm basically very patiently waiting for them to replace the DDE to get the thing to stop throwing injector codes. Seems to be the solution to this persistent injector code issue, albeit an expensive one. I guess that's why they're dragging their feet on this one :tsk:

I think i've read every thread I could find on CBU and bad injectors. Not sure if they're related, but these two problems seem to come to a head together which is highly coincidental. Not sure which causes which.

I do believe the injectors are fine. They've probably replaced each injector twice by now. Not sure how or why the DDE gets damaged.:dunno: But, not my problem. I've got 18 months of warranty left and I plan to bring the car in for every single SES until this car can run reliably without throwing codes (like it did for 40k miles). Then I plan to sell - with full disclosure of the 335d issues - and a recommendation for an emissions system delete. This is my DD. I didn't sign up for hobby car. :thumbdwn:


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Pierre Louis said:


> One of the SA's told me the thinking is that we get crappy diesel here in Savannah.
> 
> PL


BMW has used the "poor quality fuel causing deposits" excuse for 30 years in the USA.

By law, if BMW knows the fuel here is poor, they have a legal obligation to ensure their product works with the fuel in this region.

Dealers all across america use the same excuse: "Its the bad [diesel/fuel/gas] we get here in [insert city name]"


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## sirbikes (Aug 17, 2012)

If I go to a Shell station where I live and swing around to the diesel pumps they are all labeled Carolina Petro, fwtw.


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## sirbikes (Aug 17, 2012)

DDE - Diesel Digital Electronics. What is it? A computer that controls the engine? A bunch of sensors and wiring? How does it "go bad" and damage injectors and create cbu? Can you bypass part of it with a tuning box?


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

carotene said:


> I'd wager much, much higher than a couple of hundred. I concur with others who say it's not "if", it's "when".
> 
> My 2010 has been throwing codes since ~40k mark. I'm now at 62k. Over 20k miles, I estimate about 9 or 10 trips to the dealer. A few trips ago they cleaned the carbon and replaced all 6 injectors. Car threw a code for injectors on the way home from that repair. Back in it went. Updated the "firmware for the whole car" and test drove multiple times. Picked it up and it threw a code on the way home. Now its back in again. Can't wait to see what parts and procedures they throw at the problem this time! All I can say is thank god for CPO.
> 
> ...


If that is true, then there is a case for product liability/defect/class action and we should all join in. With the number of lawyers buying BMW's there should be someone among us that can give advice.

PL


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

sirbikes said:


> DDE - Diesel Digital Electronics. What is it? A computer that controls the engine? A bunch of sensors and wiring? How does it "go bad" and damage injectors and create cbu? Can you bypass part of it with a tuning box?


Its the computer. AKA PCM, ECM, etc. No, it cant be bypassed. I would expect, it doesnt ruin the injectors at all, its just that a bad DDE shows a bunch of injector failures.


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

sirbikes said:


> DDE - Diesel Digital Electronics. What is it? A computer that controls the engine? A bunch of sensors and wiring? How does it "go bad" and damage injectors and create cbu? Can you bypass part of it with a tuning box?


Here is the DDE for my car. Since the built date of October 2009, BMW is now at the 3 th iterations of the DDE. See in PDF the 3 part numbers.


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## sirbikes (Aug 17, 2012)

You hear about 335d's having their DDE modules replaced, but not X5s, even though they can experience cbu as well. Why does the DDE go bad on the 335d but not the X5? It's the same engine with a few minor differences, one being the addition of a second, low pressure egr valve on the x5, and then some routing and fuel pump differences but it's the same engine.


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## 9mmkungfu (Sep 11, 2014)

montr said:


> Here is the DDE for my car. Since the built date of October 2009, BMW is now at the 3 th iterations of the DDE. See in PDF the 3 part numbers.


Does it matter which DDE you use, if you get it updated?

The reason I ask is because I looked up used DDEs and found a few from X5s. I was thinking about picking one of these up for testing, after getting it programmed and updated by the dealer.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

9mmkungfu said:


> Does it matter which DDE you use, if you get it updated?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I looked up used DDEs and found a few from X5s. I was thinking about picking one of these up for testing, after getting it programmed and updated by the dealer.


Id say you need to find out if the realOEM part number change is just to note software updates, or if there was a hardware change in there at all. I cant tell if realOEM shows that or not


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## 9mmkungfu (Sep 11, 2014)

Unfortunately I don't think that it does show that.


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## slugdriver (Dec 30, 2005)

KeithS said:


> As you may have read in other posts, looks like I may also be up to bat for the "ordeal". Right now I only have an Injector #2 code. Car runs perfectly fine except MPG is down about 10%. Because of schedule will not be able to bring it in for almost 2 weeks. If I do have CBU, and am presented with a large bill to fix, BMW will have lost a customer for any future car purchases. 53K miles and I do have the platinum extended warranty.


+1 Concur re: "BMW will have lost a customer for any future car purchases." Said it before, will say it again, it's unfathomable that BMW has not/not stepped up and taken ownership of this systemic problem. One or two owners having an issue - can somewhat see how they (BMW NA, BMW AG) would fight it, but multiple owners. It's irresponsible.


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

slugdriver said:


> Said it before, will say it again, it's unfathomable that BMW has not/not stepped up and taken ownership of this systemic problem.


They have. The SIB has been out for over a year and it's covered under warranty.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

slugdriver said:


> +1 Concur re: "BMW will have lost a customer for any future car purchases." Said it before, will say it again, it's unfathomable that BMW has not/not stepped up and taken ownership of this systemic problem. One or two owners having an issue - can somewhat see how they (BMW NA, BMW AG) would fight it, but multiple owners. It's irresponsible.


Agreed.

If I get a CBU problem, its likely Audi will see me in their showroom.

PL


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Nadir Point said:


> They have. The SIB has been out for over a year and it's covered under warranty.


This is not the problem. Its CBU from 50,000 miles to, maybe, 120,000 miles that a reputable auto company would/should cover. And we shouldn't feel the need to purchase an extended warranty. I would take a chance on other stuff going wrong, but not for a predictable problem that should have an engineering solution. I've owned Mercedes where Daimler covered "defective" parts way past the warranty period and re-engineered them where possible.

If its caused by something, they should also fix the problem. DDE? Bad fuel? Poor calibration? etc.

Solution? Additive? Brand/type of fuel (they approve engine oils, why not fuel??) etc.

Cheers.

PL


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Pierre Louis said:


> Agreed.
> 
> If I get a CBU problem, its likely Audi will see me in their showroom.
> 
> PL


+1. Audi has already sold me a car and I love it!


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Well for me, the issue has been postponed. I implemented an 'Italian tuneup' and that seems to have cleared the misfire at idle and the SES (code P02CE) has gone out. I called the dealer where I had the appointment and they said they need it to be in a failure mode to really do anything so appointment was cancelled. While this dealer has normally been good in the past, the fact that the service adviser said it's probably a bad coil or plug, was quite disconcerting to me.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

KeithS said:


> Well for me, the issue has been postponed. I implemented an 'Italian tuneup' and that seems to have cleared the misfire at idle and the SES (code P02CE) has gone out. I called the dealer where I had the appointment and they said they need it to be in a failure mode to really do anything so appointment was cancelled. While this dealer has normally been good in the past, the fact that the service adviser said it's probably a bad coil or plug, was quite disconcerting to me.


You are being foolish and he is a liar.

The code is stored; it does NOT 'need to be in failure mode'; BMWNA has a open and active offer.

Best of luck when BMWNA says "your failure to address this issue is likely a contributory..blah, blah"..not saying they WILL or that this is ACCURATE. But you have the opportunity to get it addressed, Id do it.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

KeithS said:


> Well for me, the issue has been postponed. I implemented an 'Italian tuneup' and that seems to have cleared the misfire at idle and the SES (code P02CE) has gone out. I called the dealer where I had the appointment and they said they need it to be in a failure mode to really do anything so appointment was cancelled. While this dealer has normally been good in the past, *the fact that the service adviser said it's probably a bad coil or plug, was quite disconcerting to me.*


Time for a new dealership...


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

KeithS said:


> Well for me, the issue has been postponed. I implemented an 'Italian tuneup' and that seems to have cleared the misfire at idle and the SES (code P02CE) has gone out. I called the dealer where I had the appointment and they said they need it to be in a failure mode to really do anything so appointment was cancelled. While this dealer has normally been good in the past, the fact that the service adviser said it's probably a bad coil or plug, was quite disconcerting to me.


Stories like this reinforce my belief that BMWNA and its dealers are not supporting the diesel cars with informed Service Advisors and well trained Technicians.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

rmorin49 said:


> Stories like this reinforce my belief that BMWNA and its dealers are not supporting the diesel cars with informed Service Advisors and well trained Technicians.


+1:thumbup:


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Hoooper said:


> Id say you need to find out if the realOEM part number change is just to note software updates, or if there was a hardware change in there at all. I cant tell if realOEM shows that or not


I think the hardware itself has an issue on the 335d DDE. I don't dee it so much as going bad as perhaps being on the edge in the first place. My EGR cooler has been removed and EGR inlet is blocked. I'm not waiting for trouble to start. Now, I need to put in oil catch can on CCV system. I'm a gear head though. Go over to E90post/M57 forum where you can learn lots. We are DIY types over there.


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