# nitrous guys..need insight



## heym (Sep 29, 2006)

i've used the search feature and all that good stuff and posted on bf.com but to no avail. I need to know what you guys think about using a dry shot versus a wet shot..i wanna go dry but i know the problem in doing that...cylinders running lean because of different pressures. a wet shot seems too complicated to for me to setup..a dry setup seems more along the lines of my skill level with a wrench. I'm looking at the recluse 500 from venom performance. what do you guys think..anything is helpful.:dunno:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Im considering a system for my 540. It would be wet as it's much easier to get the mix right. 

I would like to spray it into each runner but can't since my manifold is plastic and would not structurally support a wet nozzle.

Is your I6 intake manifold an aluminum casting? If so you could set up a wet nozzle at each runner. That's a superior way to go. An equal and pefect mix in each cyclinder.


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## itzeug (Feb 22, 2006)

your engine is going to die after a few times of using this crap, it's no good unless you hate your car


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

itzeug said:


> your engine is going to die after a few times of using this crap, it's no good unless you hate your car


Thank you for the warning.

As with most things there is a correct way and many incorrect ways. If one knows what they are doing, doesn't make mistakes and doesn't go overboard, nitrous will work well and will not damage your motor or drive train. The additional load on the bearings will be born well provided you are running a quality oil, the engine is in good condition and the the motor is at operating temp.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

heym said:


> i've used the search feature and all that good stuff and posted on bf.com but to no avail. I need to know what you guys think about using a dry shot versus a wet shot..i wanna go dry but i know the problem in doing that...cylinders running lean because of different pressures. a wet shot seems too complicated to for me to setup..a dry setup seems more along the lines of my skill level with a wrench. I'm looking at the recluse 500 from venom performance. what do you guys think..anything is helpful.:dunno:


I'm no expert. I'm learning like you are and we both could use a lot of help.

Based on my limited knowledge dry seems like a harder way to go because you have to match the nitrous with a proper amount of gas and do so at the correct time. How would you accomplish that?


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## ls14winter (Oct 19, 2006)

itzeug said:


> your engine is going to die after a few times of using this crap, it's no good unless you hate your car


Either bmw's cant build a reliable motor or your an idiot. I would like to believe the later of the two since i plan to put a 70 shot on a 540.

I sprayed a dry 50 shot on a 99 elantra and a 75 wet shot on a 03 sentra se-r for a year. I filled the bottle every weekend. I will not believe that a 540 motor can't hold the same power add more reliably. Especially when the power is divided over 4 more cylinders and should also have higher power tolerances then the QR25.

Nitrous used safely is reliable. Make sure you are not increasing timing unless running race gas. Have rpm activation switch like 3500-6200rpms. Only use it at wide open throttle.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

ls14winter said:


> Either bmw's cant build a reliable motor or your an idiot. I would like to believe the later of the two since i plan to put a 70 shot on a 540.
> 
> I sprayed a dry 50 shot on a 99 elantra and a 75 wet shot on a 03 sentra se-r for a year. I filled the bottle every weekend. I will not believe that a 540 motor can't hold the same power add more reliably. Especially when the power is divided over 4 more cylinders and should also have higher power tolerances then the QR25.
> 
> Nitrous used safely is reliable. Make sure you are not increasing timing unless running race gas. Have rpm activation switch like 3500-6200rpms. Only use it at wide open throttle.


I'm concerned about how to dial back the timing when on the NO. Also about getting an even distribution of NO and fuel to all cylinders evenly from a single point wet shot upstream of the throttle body.

I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on those 2 items.


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## beamerboy85 (Jun 7, 2006)

i have a 85 325e and i have a 150 wet shot on it, ive had it on there for 5 months now and i havent had any problems with it yet. put colder plugs in. all you have to do to get an accurate jet sizing is find out how much fuel presser at WOT and call NOS or NX or ZEX and tell them the fuel press. and what size shot u want and they will tell u the jet sizing


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## killerkiko (Jul 14, 2006)

Hi guys im running a wet shot on my 2002 530i its only a 55 shot but its nice. ive had it on there for a few months and it hasnt given me any problems yet. but definitly dont advance the timing and get an "RPM Window Switch" that limits the shot to only between whatever rpm's you want, i have a pretty sweet set up and ill take some pics tis weekend. but yeah bmw motors are up to the challenge of bottle feeding. also wet systems are not hard to install, you can pul fuel from the fuel rail and that takes care of that issue. im going to get a seperate 1 gallon fuel cell and put in the racing fuel so the nitrous shot can get injected with that. but yeah if you guys have any questions id be more than happy to answer them.


-killerkiko


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## Ericthenorse (May 7, 2007)

I had a 91 VW Jetta with a dry shot system... Instead of adding it at the manifold, I shot it in right before the intercooler... I got a little help from the NO2, but mostly, it helped to cool and condense the intake charge....

If you are running a moderate system, your ECM should be able to compensate... Once you reach the limit of flow on your injectors, you need to add fuel squirters....


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Personally I would never run a dry system. Wet mixes the nitrous with the extra fuel (gasoline) that the nitrous needs. Nitrous provides oxygen only, fuel has to be added.


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## BIMMERUSAM5 (May 20, 2007)

Direct port is the best way to do a nitrous setup. You need to run a better than stock fuel pump, and make sure everything is working correctly. Depending on how built your car is, 50-200hp shots can be achieved. The most wear usually does not come from the size of the shot, but rather the duration of the shot.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Agreed, direct port and wet, with rpm limiters.


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## BIMMERUSAM5 (May 20, 2007)

franka said:


> Agreed, direct port and wet, with rpm limiters.


:thumbup: The installs I usually see are wet shots, which are most effective, and usually the safest.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Does anyone have anything new to add to this old thread?


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## lextech (Sep 27, 2007)

Basic stuff, nitrous express has more robust solenoids than NOS does, Venom can not be trusted. Ask Wolfkatz performance about their dealings with them and leaky injectors.
Upgrading and /or replacing the stock fuel pump and filters, make sure your tune is perfect are mandatory. Start small.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

franka said:


> Does anyone have anything new to add to this old thread?


I didnt see anyone mention bigger fuel pump and larger injectors. Let's remember what Nitrous is, it is a way to inject more OXYGEN into your motor. The Nitrogen molecules (the N2 part of N2O) are only there to stabilize the oxygen as oxygen by itself is very volatile and prone to blow up (i.e. spaceshuttle). So if all we are doing is adding more OXYGEN then we need to add MORE fuel. A simple wet system is ok, but atomization is a challenge (or has been for me) and more complex to wire. For the novice I reccommend a bigger pump, larger injectors, a WOT switch and a single dry stage. Direct port is fine, though tailored more fore all out dragsters wanting maximum HP, for the street a throttle body plate or nozzle is more than adequate. I ran 175HP single stage DRY system on 2 of my old 5.0 mustangs on a stock short block with over 125,000 miles and never blew anything up as I had the bigger pump and injectors. Oh, and I pulled the timing WAAAY back too. I am not sure if you can do that on an BMW, but you wouldnt want 175hp either. For 70hp or less you should be ok with the above stuff. Lastly, I dont think an RPM Limiter will help, detonation kills almost all nitrous cars because the lean out, not because they over rev. That said, if you bounce off some rev limiters with NOS going you can really get a big bang as nitrous builds up while the cylinder is shut down and then when it refires its like BOOM! I think the stock rev limiter on the newer BMW's custs fuel and spark, that can be deadly. I say, dont miss a gear and shift slightly lower, most people over rev their cars anyways. My E46 revs to 6500 but I can feel it losing power (slightly) beyond 6000.....

I hope that is enough new info....


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

smolckLet's remember what Nitrous is said:


> Oxygen by itself is not flammable or explosive. It only supports combustion.
> 
> Its only when mixed with a fuel, and ignited, that a flame or an explosion can happen.
> 
> In addition to oxygen you have to 1) a fuel and 2) an ignition.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

Bottled oxygen, as in Nitrous bottle is volatile to transport. Ever seen a BOC gas truck that didnt have warnings on it? Solid oxygen in a bottle riding around in a car is not a smart idea, otherwise why would you not just buy pure oxygen and inject that into your motor? Because it isnt safe and that was my point.....The Nitrogen is there to stabilize the mix....It is an undeniable fact.

ask anyone familiar with the properties of gasses.....


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Check your chemistry.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

Whatever.....I am not here to argue. I am here to lend my knowledge of working with Nitrous Oxide. I have used it in many applications for drag racing and street fun. I was trying to lend some real world, actually tested, advice for people to read. Not to argue. 

While I am checking my chemistry maybe you should check your grammar....
"In addition to oxygen you have to 1) a fuel and 2) an ignition." 

Why do I have to have a fuel?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Sir, I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply correcting a misconception that many have.

Still your experiences remain in tact and your point about needing to have plenty of fuel to prevent running lean is correct.

And thank you for the grammar lesson.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

A fuel, gasoline, is required to combine with the oxygen and with an ignition from the spark plug burn.

If oxygen itself burned then all the oxygen in the atmosphere and that we breathe would burn when a match was lit.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

franka said:


> A fuel, gasoline, is required to combine with the oxygen and with an ignition from the spark plug burn.
> 
> If oxygen itself burned then all the oxygen in the atmosphere and that we breathe would burn when a match was lit.


The oxygen in the atmosphere isnt under compression either. But when introduced into a cylinder (under pressure with fuel and spark) pure oxygen is very volatile. What happens when you add oxygen to a fire? Bigger fire, yes? Pure oxygen in a cylinder is very volatile and that is why the nitrogen is there, to help stabilize it.....


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Ask A Scientist
Chemistry Archive 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flammability and Oxygen 


6/19/2004 

name Patricia P.
status educator
age 50s

Question - I feel so dumb asking this, but it is in regards to
oxygen and flammability. I always thought of oxygen as a flammable gas,
but the textbook says that "oxygen is not a flammable gas-it does not
burn. But oxygen does support the burning of other substances. A
glowing wooden splint placed in a test tube of oxygen will continue to
burn until the oxygen is used up. This ability to support burning is
another example of a chemical property. By using the chemical properties
of flammability and supporting burning, you can distinguish between the
two gases hydrogen and oxygen." Somehow, I always thought that the
oxygen underwent a change in the burning process also, but I must have
been wrong. Can you shed a little more light on the matter for
me? Thanks. I want to be sure my understanding is totally complete so I
do not pass on error to others in their thinking.
-----------------
Hi Patricia-
I think you're fishing for the keyword/phrase "reactive gas" or "energetic gas".
Or some similar word we do not quite have.

Virtually all flames are the energetic reaction between a fuel and an oxidizer.
You understand rightly that both fuel and oxidizer are consumed, joined to create 
something else.

But since we live in an oxygen background, oxidizer is usually naturally present.
Fire then becomes a likelihood only when fuel is added to your situation.
So we started saying "flammable gas" for a strong or hi-energy fuel gas.

Oxygen is a strong or hi-energy oxidizer, true,
but it is an oxidizer, so it is not a fuel, so they do not call it flammable.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

Clearly you have waaay too much free time.....


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Answering a prior question....

Bottled oxygen would work but you would run out of it very quickly and could not pack in as much as you can with nitrous. 

Nitrous has the oxygen bound up tightly in the nitrous molecule and when the heat of compression breaks the bond, the free oxygen is released. 

Point is you can pack more oxygen in the nitrous oxide molecule than you can get free gaseous oxygen in the same space, even if compressed.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Many use single point wet injection just before the throttle body but my concern is the distribution in the intake manifold.

There is no way the nitrous and the extra gasoline will uniformly distribute itself to all 8 runners in the manifold. So some will run rich and some lean. And if that pattern is constant, because where the one wet nozzle is spryaing is constant, then you could burn a piston or valves or whatever from running lean.

I've looked for ways to mount individual wet injectors in each runner but the plastic manifold is too thin to tap and no adhesives will bond to it (so I've heard from 2 large adhesive mfgrs).

I've considered making a manifold spacer, since the port on the manifold is aimed striaght up and down over the port, and then tap into it for my idividual injectors. I was thinking about 0.5" thick aluminum plate with the port pattern cut into each of 2 plates.

I think it could get the plates made easy enough but it would be a lot of work to take the intake manifold off and then remount it over the spacers.

At this point I can not see why it wouldn't work.

Thoughts and comments and other ideas are welcome.


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

heym said:


> i've used the search feature and all that good stuff and posted on bf.com but to no avail. I need to know what you guys think about using a dry shot versus a wet shot..i wanna go dry but i know the problem in doing that...cylinders running lean because of different pressures. a wet shot seems too complicated to for me to setup..a dry setup seems more along the lines of my skill level with a wrench. I'm looking at the recluse 500 from venom performance. what do you guys think..anything is helpful.:dunno:


I have not read all the other reply, so Sorry if some of my info is being repeated.

First, the differences, Wet shot, combines Fuel and nitrous into the shot. So you will have a Fuel silonide and a Nitrous silonide, with both fuel and nitrous going into the nozzle. You adjust the amount of fuel with a "jet" just like you would the nitrous.

The dry shot, is just nitrous going through the jet. So you will have one silonide for the nitrous, and that is it. you will be relying on your PCM or ECU to adjust the fuel pressure to make up the difference.

I don't know if your car is a Mass Air metered car or not, but my Nissan is and i have it set up to where i spray about 8-10inch before my Throttle body, AFTER my MAF. so my nozzle is between my TB and MAF.

Also when spraying, its good to get a window switch, pressure gauge if you live in a state like CA, FL, AZ or anyplace like that, Also a step or two colder COPPER plugs. You dont want to run iridium, as the nitrous will burn the electrode off, and well...i guess you will have hirer compression at that point LOL. ALso, a WOT switch is the way to go as well.

now most kits come with WOT switches, but most do not come with the plugs or window switch, if you dont want to spend the extra 100-250 bucks on a window swtich (i dont blame you) Just be sure to ONLY spray above 3000rpms.

Sorry for such a long post...if you have any nitrous questions, post them up.


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

franka said:


> Im considering a system for my 540. It would be wet as it's much easier to get the mix right.
> 
> I would like to spray it into each runner but can't since my manifold is plastic and would not structurally support a wet nozzle.
> 
> Is your I6 intake manifold an aluminum casting? If so you could set up a wet nozzle at each runner. That's a superior way to go. An equal and pefect mix in each cyclinder.


Your intake manifold being plastic is PERFECT to run a direct port on.

When you get the nozzle, it comes with a "lock nut" like this:









Thoes are PERFECT for people with stock intake pipes, and Plastic intake manifolds. 
I recently did a 2007 spec-v, and they have plastic intake manifolds, but it worked PERFECTLY.

Good luck! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

itzeug said:


> your engine is going to die after a few times of using this crap, it's no good unless you hate your car


Is that so? Why is it, after 2 and half years, a car we had put a nitrous kit on, a guy who goes out to the races, and goes through 3 bottles of nitrous a week, has had ZERO problem's...and still on teh same motor.

With that, you can blow your motor up on the first pull of the juice, OR it can last you a VERY VERY VERY long time. 
all depends what precautions you take.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

spoolin spec v said:


> Your intake manifold being plastic is PERFECT to run a direct port on.
> 
> When you get the nozzle, it comes with a "lock nut" like this:
> 
> ...


Excellent but I'll still have to remove the intake manifold to install them and then make sure they never get loose and fall into the intake port.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Regarding wet vs dry I do not see how you can spray nitrous only (dry) between the MAF and the throttle body and get more fuel to match. What is signaling the fuel injectors to open longer spraying the fuel to match the dry shot? 

If I'm missing something please explain.

Because of that problem I think wet is a better way to go. You are always assured you will have the correct mix of nitrous and gas.


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

franka said:


> Regarding wet vs dry I do not see how you can spray nitrous only (dry) between the MAF and the throttle body and get more fuel to match. What is signaling the fuel injectors to open longer spraying the fuel to match the dry shot?
> 
> If I'm missing something please explain.
> 
> Because of that problem I think wet is a better way to go. You are always assured you will have the correct mix of nitrous and gas.


I am running a wet shot...Sorry if i typed dry, my fingers where going faster than the little squirl in my head LOL.

And when you spray a dry shot, the ECU will compensat by adding fuel pressure, like on 5.0 mustangs. Just need to make sure you have a fuel pump that can flow that volume.


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

franka said:


> Excellent but I'll still have to remove the intake manifold to install them and then make sure they never get loose and fall into the intake port.


If you are that worried about it, throw some hi temp red locktite on them and be done with it.'

Although, They will not come lose if you get them tight. :thumbup:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

spoolin spec v; And when you spray a dry shot said:


> Sorry but I'm still not understanding how the ECU will compensate. Fuel pressure, fine, but something has to trigger it somehow. What is the trigger?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

spoolin spec v said:


> If you are that worried about it, throw some hi temp red locktite on them and be done with it.'
> 
> Although, They will not come lose if you get them tight. :thumbup:


Good idea. I was thinking of peening the thread once it is installed so it would be impossible for it to back out.


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

franka said:


> Sorry but I'm still not understanding how the ECU will compensate. Fuel pressure, fine, but something has to trigger it somehow. What is the trigger?


If you spray it on the manifold, like a direct port style, it will not, But If you do it before the MAF< then the MAF is what will "trigger" it....


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

spoolin spec v said:


> Is that so? Why is it, after 2 and half years, a car we had put a nitrous kit on, a guy who goes out to the races, and goes through 3 bottles of nitrous a week, has had ZERO problem's...and still on teh same motor.
> 
> With that, you can blow your motor up on the first pull of the juice, OR it can last you a VERY VERY VERY long time.
> all depends what precautions you take.


You are right on man! I ran 175hp shot (dry) on my 120k stock short block mustang. I went through 3 bottles a week with that thing for about a year. By 140k that sucker was still running strong. My secret: a rev limiter, bigger fuel pump, colder spark plugs, less timing, and some common sense. Never had a problem....people who blow up there motors on the juice usually forget to do one of the above...


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

smolck said:


> You are right on man! I ran 175hp shot (dry) on my 120k stock short block mustang. I went through 3 bottles a week with that thing for about a year. By 140k that sucker was still running strong. My secret: a rev limiter, bigger fuel pump, colder spark plugs, less timing, and some common sense. Never had a problem....people who blow up there motors on the juice usually forget to do one of the above...


+1

I am with both of you guys on that. Both spoolin and smolck.

You have to know what you are doing. Amen.


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## midlife (May 10, 2007)

franka said:


> +1
> 
> I am with both of you guys on that. Both spoolin and smolck.
> 
> You have to know what you are doing. Amen.


registered


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

We need more nitrous talk to keep this thread alive and interesting.

Has anyone seen the power ring that I think Texas Nitrous, or a name like that, is selling ? Looks too big for our BMWs but it wouldn't be hard to make one.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

franka said:


> We need more nitrous talk to keep this thread alive and interesting.
> 
> Has anyone seen the power ring that I think Texas Nitrous, or a name like that, is selling ? Looks too big for our BMWs but it wouldn't be hard to make one.


I think I saw something like that on TV (power block) or something. Very cool. Wouldn't try it on my car though. But, I do plan on nitrousing the crap out of my car when I get my new 3.0L replacement for my 2.5L. I'll see what she can handle! I saw a car in a magazine this monthy that was an E46 330I claiming to have NOS, no real proof though....

I'd like to know who (if anyone) has juiced an E46 without any modifications like new bottom end. ???


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

smolck said:


> I think I saw something like that on TV (power block) or something. Very cool. Wouldn't try it on my car though. But, I do plan on nitrousing the crap out of my car when I get my new 3.0L replacement for my 2.5L. I'll see what she can handle! I saw a car in a magazine this monthy that was an E46 330I claiming to have NOS, no real proof though....
> 
> I'd like to know who (if anyone) has juiced an E46 without any modifications like new bottom end. ???


You don't need to worry about the bottom end unless you are looking to 150-200 hp.

Turbos and SC'rs add that much w/o bottom end work.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

franka said:


> You don't need to worry about the bottom end unless you are looking to 150-200 hp.
> 
> Turbos and SC'rs add that much w/o bottom end work.


Yea, but what about reliability? I don't know how to turn the timing down, and with 11:1 stock compression, it is asking for trouble, wouldn't you agree? I don't think the stock M52 motor (2.5) comes with forged internals, aren't they cast?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

smolck said:


> Yea, but what about reliability? I don't know how to turn the timing down, and with 11:1 stock compression, it is asking for trouble, wouldn't you agree? I don't think the stock M52 motor (2.5) comes with forged internals, aren't they cast?


Yes cast. I agree that you have to turn the timing back regardless of internals.


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

franka said:


> You don't need to worry about the bottom end unless you are looking to 150-200 hp.
> 
> Turbos and SC'rs add that much w/o bottom end work.


A blow punish's the motor harder than the blower, the blowers power band is nice, smooth, and depentant on the RPM.

the nitrous, its BAM there is 150 extra ftlbs. not so smooth.


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## spoolin spec v (Nov 3, 2007)

franka said:


> Yes cast. I agree that you have to turn the timing back regardless of internals.


For every car i have done , for a 75 shot, i would retard it 2* and for 150shot, 4*


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

spoolin spec v said:


> the nitrous, its BAM there is 150 extra ftlbs. not so smooth.


Yes bam, the power is there immediately but then isn't that the point? When you step on the gas and want to go its there immediately.

And about hurting the engine, a sudden 100 hp has the same affect as 1 or 2 second rise to 100 hp. The fact that the power comes on suddenly is not detrimental.

If you could see inside your motor in slow motion you would see that it really does not come on all of a sudden.

Picture just one cylinder and lets say that your motor is turning 4000 rpms when the juice kicks in. Thats 66 revs per second with only half of them power strokes. So that one cyl is firing 33 times a second. No way will any one cylinder see no juice in one power stroke and a full load of juice in the next power stroke.

Remember we are in slow motion. It takes time for the spray nozzle to fully open and during that opening period the cylinder will see many power strokes at less than a full shot.

So my only point is that the nitrous and gasoline do not hit the cylinder suddenly.


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## smolck (Jul 2, 2007)

franka said:


> So my only point is that the nitrous and gasoline do not hit the cylinder suddenly.


It just FEELS like a "suddenly".....


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## MPower-dodge (Feb 21, 2008)

go wet and u wont go wrong and beleive me a bmw motor can handle it. for a laugh we took a 318i with over 100k on the clock and wacked nos on it and it still runs over a year later


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