# Charger or power supply for coding



## lalamper (Sep 5, 2014)

Hi Guys,

I start this topic to gather and find information regarding chargers or power supplies for flashing/coding. I would like to flash my car, but there is no idea how to find reliable device.

Please add your own 100 percent working solutions, charger types, photos here.
Thanks.


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

Schumacher INC-700A 4/20/70 Amp Automatic Charger

http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-INC-700A-Amp-Automatic-Charger/dp/B002Z2Z7ZY


----------



## lalamper (Sep 5, 2014)

Thanks, Shawn! However, it is quite expensive stuff..


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

lalamper said:


> Thanks, Shawn! However, it is quite expensive stuff..


Compared to a bricked ECU, it's cheap.


----------



## lalamper (Sep 5, 2014)

shawnsheridan said:


> Compared to a bricked ECU, it's cheap.


Definitely..  
How about connecting another car with running engine as a workaround? Can it provide solid voltage without destroying any electrical part? Not to mention CO saturation in the garage..


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

lalamper said:


> Definitely..
> How about connecting another car with running engine as a workaround? Can it provide solid voltage without destroying any electrical part? Not to mention CO saturation in the garage..


It is not an ideal solution by any means, but it can work. I think maybe it's ok for flash of single ECU, but I would not take this approach myself when flashing entire car.


----------



## lalamper (Sep 5, 2014)

And for what current do you set your charger? Or do you let it to do the job itself in auto mode?
I think using high charging current can immediately damage your battery. 50A or more is very high.


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

Mine has a Flash mode. I just select it.


----------



## lalamper (Sep 5, 2014)

Do you connect it directly to battery or use the special connector in boot? My F20 has dedicated ports to connect charger.


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

lalamper said:


> Do you connect it directly to battery or use the special connector in boot? My F20 has dedicated ports to connect charger.


I use remote battery terminals in Engine Compartment.


----------



## ap90500 (Oct 23, 2013)

Again, MAAS SPS-II 50 is available in Europe and is fine for flashing. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAAS-SPS-50...06?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item259e82403e


----------



## u3b3rg33k (Jan 14, 2015)

with the 3 cars I've been around for flashing/coding, we used the battery.


----------



## ap90500 (Oct 23, 2013)

u3b3rg33k said:


> with the 3 cars I've been around for flashing/coding, we used the battery.


Well, you have been lucky. Full flash can take over one hour. Battery can provide maximum of 12,7 volts, which is already too low for flashing. This voltege drops quite quickly, as F-series car is drawing 20 amps or more when ignition is turned on. During the flash this can grow even higher.

Coding can be done with engine running, flashing can't so it requires the PSU if done safely. There was a discussion about this a week or two ago, somebody had great trouble when flashing without power supply.


----------



## BMWzone (May 11, 2013)

u3b3rg33k said:


> with the 3 cars I've been around for flashing/coding, we used the battery.


You're referring to some ECU not whole car ?
I bought Maas recommended by ap90500, is excellent :thumbup:
First with much luck flash one ECU at a time, or after one hour of coding with ambient temperatures colder battery showing me to recharge, my car has three years of life, and the battery is replaced by an year in service


----------



## u3b3rg33k (Jan 14, 2015)

ap90500 said:


> Well, you have been lucky. Full flash can take over one hour. Battery can provide maximum of 12,7 volts, which is already too low for flashing. This voltege drops quite quickly, as F-series car is drawing 20 amps or more when ignition is turned on. During the flash this can grow even higher.
> 
> Coding can be done with engine running, flashing can't so it requires the PSU if done safely. There was a discussion about this a week or two ago, somebody had great trouble when flashing without power supply.


a fully charged 90/100AH battery should be able to provide 20 amps for nearly 5 hours. 











BMWzone said:


> You're referring to some ECU not whole car ?
> I bought Maas recommended by ap90500, is excellent :thumbup:
> First with much luck flash one ECU at a time, or after one hour of coding with ambient temperatures colder battery showing me to recharge, my car has three years of life, and the battery is replaced by an year in service


Yes, not every single module in the car, just the ones we wanted new software on.



lalamper said:


> And for what current do you set your charger? Or do you let it to do the job itself in auto mode?
> I think using high charging current can immediately damage your battery. 50A or more is very high.


batteries don't accept current without voltage - if you're holding 12.8/13.2V on a battery, you could have a power supply capable of infinite amperage and not damage the battery. a "battery charger" is not the same thing as a "power supply".

those really cheap 200A booster/chargers don't have legitimate voltage regulation circuits, and will put out 15V-16V or more with an open circuit. that can damage components, and instantly blow out lightbulbs.


----------



## ap90500 (Oct 23, 2013)

These new cars have brake energy regeneration, which requires that the battery is not fully charged. BMW has decided to keep the battery at around 80% charge, so 100 amp hours battery has "only" 80 Ah charge. So 4 hours, not five. The draw can also be higher during the flash, so even less. Also as you can see from your chart, the voltage level drops as charge level drops. You don't need to keep ignition on for a very long time, and the voltage goes under 12 volt. This is way too low for flashing, and a module will crash while flashing. It is important to understand that empty battery is not the limit for failure. You can check the voltage from instrument cluster hidden menu if you want to. Also try to flash your CIC or NBT with battery, if you really want to test your method.

Actually that chart is not correct on high loads. Voltage level drops much faster when there is 20+ amps load.

There, posts 983-1010 I think: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=666531&page=40


----------



## u3b3rg33k (Jan 14, 2015)

No CIC/NBT in the e60. I'd love to see a bmw document on voltage requirements instead of "common wisdom", which is often not. as for high loads, it depends on the Ah rating on the battery, wire gauge, etc. Anyways lets not get too side tracked down this hole, there is no bottom.

Either way I highly recommend against a cheap battery charger being used as a power supply. they have horrible ripple, noise, etc.


----------



## ap90500 (Oct 23, 2013)

Page 13:
http://www.bmwicom.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/istap_ugd_us_www.bmwicom.net_v2.36.0.pdf
It is also a known fact that ista/p refuses to flash anything if voltage is not between 13 and 15 volts. But yes, this is enough about this on this topic.


----------



## BMWzone (May 11, 2013)

will be simple as monitoring, with multimeter or INPA, after stop engine my battery doesn't take long time to cliff from 12.7 to <=12V


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

u3b3rg33k said:


> No CIC/NBT in the e60. I'd love to see a bmw document on voltage requirements instead of "common wisdom", which is often not. as for high loads, it depends on the Ah rating on the battery, wire gauge, etc. Anyways lets not get too side tracked down this hole, there is no bottom.
> 
> Either way I highly recommend against a cheap battery charger being used as a power supply. they have horrible ripple, noise, etc.


Ask, and ye shall receive.

From BMW AG's BMW Programming, Coding, and Dignosing document dated 2008-12-01, a charger rated for minimum of 12.4V and 45 Amps is called for, and warns against the potential consequences of using anything less:









View attachment BMW Programming, Coding, and Dignosing.pdf


Also here in SIB 04 11 02 Tools and Equipment from June 2009:

View attachment SIB 04 11 02.pdf


And keep in mind these requirements were written around programming the then new E65. Newer F-Series cars with considerably more Electronics draw more current than an E65, and would require a Power Supply with a higher rating than those specified here for the E65.


----------



## aboulfad (Jun 5, 2015)

It's funny, the BMW recommended Deutronic chargers are also for lead based batteries! I read their manuals just now. So I guess BMW adjusts the charging voltage to the max of 14V for the LI-Ion batteries. So in theory the Inc-700 could work but have no way to check!


----------



## BanditAU (Jan 5, 2016)

Being a complete noobie here and after reading this thread I am left wondering how long do some of these coding\programming sessions take? Someone talked about 8 hours!? I'm never going to be game enough to take on fully programming ECUs so I will just stick to coding which so far I have been able to do with just the engine running. This being the case what is the longest time a coding & write session is likely to take?


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

BanditAU said:


> Being a complete noobie here and after reading this thread I am left wondering how long do some of these coding\programming sessions take? Someone talked about 8 hours!? I'm never going to be game enough to take on fully programming ECUs so I will just stick to coding which so far I have been able to do with just the engine running. This being the case what is the longest time a coding & write session is likely to take?


The actual coding "write" should never take more than a few minutes. Head Unit and FEM / BDC take the longest.

Programming F-Series car should take no more than 3-4 hours at most.


----------



## aboulfad (Jun 5, 2015)

shawnsheridan said:


> Anything Deutronic will cost a pretty penny...
> 
> According to this though, the Inc-700A is only for lead Acid batteries and can NOT be used for Lithium Ion ones:
> 
> ...


Hi Shawn, further reading in Rheingold revealed the procedure that BMW uses when dealing with F8x Li-Ion batteries, they do use the same approved chargers for all battery types (Deutronic DBL800/1200/1600, ELTEK MultiCharger 750/900/1500, ELEKTRON HS-1000), *BUT *the following parameters must be adjusted for a lithium ion battery:

- Charging voltage U = 14.0 V
- Maintenance charging voltage Uehl = 13.6 V

These approved expensive chargers are very configurable and un-obtainable ! I have read the manual of the INC-700A, it doesn't seem that it has maintenance charge voltage setting, so now we know for sure it cant be used to charge my battery


----------



## shawnsheridan (Jan 10, 2009)

aboulfad said:


> Hi Shawn, further reading in Rheingold revealed the procedure that BMW uses when dealing with F8x Li-Ion batteries, they do use the same approved chargers for all battery types (Deutronic DBL800/1200/1600, ELTEK MultiCharger 750/900/1500, ELEKTRON HS-1000), *BUT *the following parameters must be adjusted for a lithium ion battery:
> 
> - Charging voltage U = 14.0 V
> - Maintenance charging voltage Uehl = 13.6 V
> ...


I seriously doubt .4 V makes any difference.


----------



## aboulfad (Jun 5, 2015)

shawnsheridan said:


> I seriously doubt .4 V makes any difference.


I honestly dont know anymore what matters or not with these sophisticated toys ... and this is coming from an EE. You think you know stuff until you find out that what you know is no more applicable :tsk: it makes me wonder if all these F8x flashers are risking it with the 4A CTEK lithium charger even on a full battery...


----------



## Almaretto (Nov 17, 2015)

So I am guessing this will not cut it: http://tools.woot.com/offers/battery-chargers-your-choice?ref=tg_cnt_wp_5_8


----------



## Six6siX (Nov 1, 2015)

Just get something second hand like a ham radio power supply capable of delivering 14v and a high current sufficient for your car. There's quite a few of them on eBay.

Make sure it has a variable voltage range. If it has a current limited function that's even better. Mine hasn't got the current limiting function so I have to increase the voltage slowly which is a pain, but it works. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aboulfad (Jun 5, 2015)

Almaretto said:


> So I am guessing this will not cut it: http://tools.woot.com/offers/battery-chargers-your-choice?ref=tg_cnt_wp_5_8


You'd need a charger in PSU mode with voltage setting or flash function and a max current that is al least close to the spec of your battery. I doubt your F10 is rated at 50Ah! (Amazing car )


----------



## martinv26 (Feb 27, 2016)

In case somebody is interested in buying *PS50-SW-III 50 Amp* unit in UK check links below

MyDEL MP-50SWIII PSU 
http://www.hamradio.co.uk/accessories-general-power-supplies/mydel/mydel-mp-50swiii-psu-pd-702.php

or from Germany (cheaper approximately £80 inc. postage)
http://www.thiecom.de/thieking-ps50-sw-3-50a-netzgeraet.html

or if you like spend more money then

Ring Automotive 50A 12V Professional SmartChargePro Smart Battery Charger RSCPR5
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ring-Auto...438646?hash=item3abafff0b6:g:s~8AAOSwwPhWkrm9
http://www.ringautomotive.co.uk/files/mydocs/SmartChargePro Instructions.pdf


----------



## QP220 (Feb 29, 2016)

Hey everybody,

until now I was just reading in your board, but now I have a question, so I just created an account! You guys are amazing! :thumb:

I drive a BMW 2 series coupe, live in Germany and just started to do coding in my F22. The first few things already work and after reading a lot, it now seems a lot more clear than before.

Now to my questions:

1. flashing with an external PSU, did anyone got into trouble and damaging an ECU? An if so, what was the reason and what can someone do to prevent that?

2. martinv26 wrote that the *PS50-SW-III 50 Amp* can be purchased for 89 € in Germany which is a very good deal. Has anybody used this PSU already? I mean compared to the other mentioned PSUs its quite affordable.

3. What tools do you use for flashing? ISTA-P or E-SYS? I found quite a lot tutorials for flashing with E-SYS but not really for ISTA-P. Is the process with ISTA-P like following an assistant? And is it ok to use ENET with the ICOM Emulator in ISTA-P for flashing?

Right now I am trying to learn and make myself familiar with flashing ECUs, before I even try to do it. I don't want to mess up anything. So sorry for a lot of questions. If they have been answered somewhere already, I deeply apologize. I haven't found it yet :dunno:

So thanks and have a great week!

Lenny


----------



## Breach (Jul 18, 2011)

QP220 said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> 2. martinv26 wrote that the *PS50-SW-III 50 Amp* can be purchased for 89 € in Germany which is a very good deal. Has anybody used this PSU already? I mean compared to the other mentioned PSUs its quite affordable.
> 
> ...


2. This one should work, but good luck actually finding it in stock. Myself I am rather considering MAAS SPS-50-II which can be easily had for about 150 EUR new. There's more feedback on the MAAS too. Both offer fixed 13.8V and up to 50/55 amps which should suffice. Myself, I'll get one of these shortly, probably the MAAS.

3. I have yet to flash my car, but AFAIK: You can use both for flashing (full PSszdata needed, ISTA/P comes with it). ISTA-P is supposedly more user-friendly, but heavier. Also, you cannot flash ECUs connected on the MOST bus (optical, e.g. CIC) with ISTA/P and ENET+ICOM emulator - you'd need a real ICOM/clone for that. There are good instructions for flashing with E-Sys though, so I'd go with that.


----------



## b21playa (Mar 16, 2006)

martinv26 said:


> In case somebody is interested in buying *PS50-SW-III 50 Amp* unit in UK check links below
> 
> MyDEL MP-50SWIII PSU
> http://www.hamradio.co.uk/accessories-general-power-supplies/mydel/mydel-mp-50swiii-psu-pd-702.php
> ...


Would the ring smart charge provide a constant 13.8v for ista/p?


----------



## Six6siX (Nov 1, 2015)

If it says it support power supply mode then yes. Otherwise no, you need to make sure you have enough current to charge the battery at the same time if you are going to be using the car for a prolonged period without the engine running for instance when flashing the ecu's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aboulfad (Jun 5, 2015)

shawnsheridan said:


> Anything Deutronic will cost a pretty penny...
> 
> According to this though, the Inc-700A is only for lead Acid batteries and can NOT be used for Lithium Ion ones:
> 
> ...


Update: Just recently, a fellow F8x has flashed his car with the above PSU with no issues at all, so setting the flash voltage to 13.6 seems to be fine. However using the Inc-700A is probably not recommended for "charging" the LifePO4 as lead acid batteries are charged at 14.6V but using them for flashing is OK given its adjustable in that unit.


----------



## BloomingtonFPV (May 3, 2016)

I have a monster power supply that will provide 12v 74amp:

https://imgur.com/a/joWIK

Would this work for coding my F10, and if so, do I attach the positive to the battery (+), and the negative to the chassis?

They are pretty cheap:

http://store.flagshiptech.com/hp-406421-001-337867-501-1300w-power-supply/


----------



## Almaretto (Nov 17, 2015)

BloomingtonFPV said:


> I have a monster power supply that will provide 12v 74amp:
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/joWIK
> 
> ...


I am no expert, but it looks like the voltage is too low and not sure that the amps are continuous. I would doubt that would work. There is a difference between inexpensive and cheap as well as a jump starter and programming PSU.

I got a Schumacher INC-700A for $350 (+Tax). Lowest elsewhere I have found is Amazon for $499.49.

EDIT: For those interested, I have included the details of my purchase:

Pep Boys (Ebay) and used additional cashback plus purchase discounts through Ebates (Formerly Fatwallet). Note, listing currently shows as "0 available." I contacted seller, but they gave no indication of if and when they would restock. However, I added item to watch list, checked frequently, and more became available. In April, when I first saw, there were 3-5 of 8 available and then gone 30 minutes later. In May, when I purchased, 3 of 10 were available, all of which were gone in 24 hours. So, if in the market, make a decision on whether you are ready to buy and bookmark link knowing whether you are ready to pull the trigger because they disappear fast.

EDIT2: 2 became available a few days ago and one left for anyone still in the market (at least at time of this update)

EDIT3: 6 Available, with 42 sold as of 3/12/17


----------



## aboulfad (Jun 5, 2015)

Hi, another very inexpensive option (~$50CDN) is modding two DSP 600PB in parallel, capable of outputting 60-90Amps in that configuration. The output voltage under load as hooked up to my M4 with ignition/fan/low beam ON during programming was 13.35V which is still adequate for flashing (BMW recommends minimum 13.0V during programming). I just did the mod and used it successfully for my first flashing session.


----------



## quicksilv86 (Oct 24, 2016)

Is is possible to use the Schumacher INC-700A charger in France (i.e with a 220 volt outlet)???
Thank you in advance


----------



## quicksilv86 (Oct 24, 2016)

Is is possible to use the Schumacher INC-700A charger in France (i.e with a 220 volt outlet)???
Thank you in advance


----------



## Krysiaman (Oct 19, 2016)

I use Bosch Bat 490 for programming and it's very good. 
Max 90A output is enough, you can set voltage with 0.1V step, it has nice cables... and it's Bosch so the overall quality is on very good level. Only one thing that bothers me is bad quality of lcd, it needs more contrast.


----------



## Breach (Jul 18, 2011)

I got this one: http://www.maas-elektronik.com/MAAS-SPS-50-II-Schaltnetzteil-55-Ampere.2.html

150 EUR only, but somewhat basic and old-school and needs some custom cable work (or just a separator between the alligator clips). Then again I don't program cars professionally.


----------



## Seb530DA (Nov 16, 2016)

aboulfad said:


> Hi Shawn, further reading in Rheingold revealed the procedure that BMW uses when dealing with F8x Li-Ion batteries, they do use the same approved chargers for all battery types (Deutronic DBL800/1200/1600, ELTEK MultiCharger 750/900/1500, ELEKTRON HS-1000), *BUT *the following parameters must be adjusted for a lithium ion battery:
> 
> - Charging voltage U = 14.0 V
> - Maintenance charging voltage Uehl = 13.6 V
> ...


Hi I'm using a Deutronic DBL 1600 and it's really not un-obtainable ! I mean for a "normal guy" but as BMW official partner it's about 1000€


----------



## Polo08816 (Jul 10, 2004)

I hooked up a 2016 X3 28i to my 2014 335i to flash program PsdZData through ISTAP. It kept the voltage above 14.0 for the entire duration ~58 mins.

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1339348


----------



## BloomingtonFPV (May 3, 2016)

I'm using a Schumacher INC-700A to program my F10. I've read conflicting information about what voltage and amp settings to use. 

The June 2009 BMW adivosry talks about a 12.7V power supply mode, but in this thread the F10 should be programmed in battery charge mode?

I think the default flash mode is 14.2V. Is that what people are using? I'm worried about damaging the AGM battery if the voltage is too high.


----------



## pplayer (May 18, 2017)

Sorry for calling this old thread again. A lot of useful info. I have a spare Bosch battery 100Ah (brand new). I'm wondering if I can wire it in parallel with the one on car and that would be sufficient power for programming?

Another related question: I have a few power supplies for LED strip lights which are said 12V, 30A. I didn't manage to measure the voltage of it with and without loads. If I wire 4 of them in parallel to produce 12V 120A theoretically, is it OK to use as power supply for programming?


----------



## Almaretto (Nov 17, 2015)

pplayer said:


> Sorry for calling this old thread again. A lot of useful info. I have a spare Bosch battery 100Ah (brand new). I'm wondering if I can wire it in parallel with the one on car and that would be sufficient power for programming?
> 
> Another related question: I have a few power supplies for LED strip lights which are said 12V, 30A. I didn't manage to measure the voltage of it with and without loads. If I wire 4 of them in parallel to produce 12V 120A theoretically, is it OK to use as power supply for programming?


You need 13.4V-13.6V


----------



## pplayer (May 18, 2017)

Thank you. What about 2 battery for programming?


----------



## Almaretto (Nov 17, 2015)

pplayer said:


> Thank you. What about 2 battery for programming?


You can wire multiple PSU's together. And, it will work as long as required ampere and voltage can be maintained.


----------



## e53m62 (Jul 8, 2015)

*Is this genuine BMW BATTERY CHARGER 61432358315 is good for the job?*

Gents,

I have a 2010 F01 750ix US edition SWB. And also have a genuine BMW BATTERY CHARGER (pn: 61432358315). Is it good for charging during programming? If yes, which is more stable: the charging through the luggage compartment (through the battery itself), or through the jacking points under the bonnet?

Thanks for your help, in advance.


----------



## Almaretto (Nov 17, 2015)

e53m62 said:


> Gents,
> 
> I have a 2010 F01 750ix US edition SWB. And also have a genuine BMW BATTERY CHARGER (pn: 61432358315). Is it good for charging during programming? If yes, which is more stable: the charging through the luggage compartment (through the battery itself), or through the jacking points under the bonnet?
> 
> Thanks for your help, in advance.


BMW only makes a trickle charger which will not work. You always use hood remote terminals.


----------



## e53m62 (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks.


----------



## Almaretto (Nov 17, 2015)

e53m62 said:


> Thanks.


:thumbup:

There are many recommendations in thread for minimum requirements, retail options (eg, Schumacher or MAAS SPS-II 50), and DIY.


----------



## smilo (Oct 6, 2015)

For those who are using MP-50SWIII or MAAS SPS-50-II, in fact, it's a power supply and not a battery charger (in the notice, it's said that it's not for use to charge the car battery).
So you disconnect completely the car battery when you use it ?


----------



## smilo (Oct 6, 2015)

--


----------



## quicksilv86 (Oct 24, 2016)

I have the opportunity to buy a used Deutronic DBL 1000?
Will it be enough to flash my BMW Pre LCI F11 (manufactured in January, 2012) ?
Input : 230V
outpout: 14.2/13.2VDC 70A(90A)
Thank you


----------



## Almaretto (Nov 17, 2015)

quicksilv86 said:


> I have the opportunity to buy a used Deutronic DBL 1000?
> Will it be enough to flash my BMW Pre LCI F11 (manufactured in January, 2012) ?
> Input : 230V
> outpout: 14.2/13.2VDC 70A(90A)
> Thank you


yes


----------



## kromerok (Jan 31, 2018)

Ive been trying to find a schumacher inc700 but none are available is here anything else i can use for programming?


----------



## BimmerMan1975 (Jan 17, 2018)

Appears to me this unit is the same thing with a different name on it.

OTC 700A 70 Amp Power Supply/Battery Charger https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009RXXTYU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_cNIdBb7HGS554

F10/2014 535D


----------



## kromerok (Jan 31, 2018)

BimmerMan1975 said:


> Appears to me this unit is the same thing with a different name on it.
> 
> OTC 700A 70 Amp Power Supply/Battery Charger https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009RXXTYU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_cNIdBb7HGS554
> 
> F10/2014 535D


Looks the same to me too. Thx


----------

