# Refilled DEF Myself to Avoid $300 Fee



## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

magbarn said:


> Exactly. All the dealership has to do is check the average MPG. In order for these posters to burn through the DEF in 5000 miles, they would be averaging around 10 MPG. That's enough proof that there was not enough def filled at factory or there's a leak. BMW needs to own up to this as they've already have potential lost diesel sale here.


MAG, it is a metering pump which is supposedly set to inject at between 1% and 3%. I did the calcs in another post. At 1% you just make the 15k, at 3% you need refill near 5k.

I suggest they are either not setting the metering pump correctly or they have under filled the tank(s).

Either way I hold firm that BMW is responsible for maintaining this fluid under their maintenance free warranty, 4 years 50k miles.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Flyingman said:


> Either way I hold firm that BMW is responsible for maintaining this fluid under their maintenance free warranty, 4 years 50k miles.


+1
Flyingman, no question about it :thumbup:


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## TridentFrog (Apr 8, 2010)

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)2 - drain and refill (only in conjunction with a covered engine oil and filter replacement)...found this on BMW's maintenance site.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/bmwmaintenanceprogram.aspx


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

TridentFrog said:


> Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)2 - drain and refill (only in conjunction with a covered engine oil and filter replacement)...found this on BMW's maintenance site.
> 
> http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/bmwmaintenanceprogram.aspx


I read that as saying that *drain* (and refill) is only done at scheduled maintenance. Makes sense because DEF allegedly has a shelf life of less than 2 years, and because scheduled maintenance intervals can be as much as one year apart.

BMW claims that DEF should last the span of time between maintenance intervals for most drivers. In the material describing the 4 year maintenance program we have in the USA I didn't notice any exclusions for DEF. Either I missed the fine print allowing for DEF exclusion, or DEF top-off should be covered under the inclusive maintenance program. Note that I said top-off, not drain-and-refill. Someone else used the word bait-and-switch...that might be a valid claim if DEF top off is declined?

I should probably go re-read the fine print before saying anything else. There's already too much speculation around this topic. It would help if BMWNA made a clarifying statement absent ambiguous language.


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

TridentFrog said:


> Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)2 - drain and refill (only in conjunction with a covered engine oil and filter replacement)...found this on BMW's maintenance site.
> 
> http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/bmwmaintenanceprogram.aspx


Reading this link on free maintenance policy looks like BMWNA as of today is only going to cover DEF refill/replacement if the oil/filter service is also concurrently due (basically anywhere between 13-15K miles.) So any other DEF services outside this is *NOT* covered, unless you can prove that you had a leak or a SCR/DEF defect. 

I find this quite irritating as BMW does not make an easy way of filling up the DEF by the end-user except by 0.5L increments at around $40 per 0.5L. (If you want to stick to BMW-approved prcoedures) Only other recourse is to pay the $tealership $300 for the labor and materials to drain/replace DEF. This whole thing is unacceptable.

Here's the whole quote from BMW USA



BMWUSA Website said:


> The BMW Maintenance Program
> Posted on March 15, 2010
> The BMW Maintenance Program is a U.S. specific program. It applies to eligible U.S. specification BMW vehicles purchased in the U.S. or through the BMW NA's Military Sales Program, and is valid only when repairs are performed at an authorized U.S. BMW center (including Puerto Rico), subject to all applicable exclusions or limitations.
> 
> ...


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Good find,
So who's going to post first DIY on DEF drain and fill without using extremely overpriced "BMW" DEF


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## Xerix (May 5, 2010)

I too would like to see a DIY on this. I only have 1300KM on my car so far, but I like to plan ahead just in case.

Andrew


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## compusatman (Apr 14, 2010)

I have followed you people for quite some time. I wanted an X5D. My good friend is a BMW mechanic. He says the DEF is controlled by the computer. He says the percentage of injection cannot be manipulated manually. Makes little difference to me because I have decided to give up on the X5D for now. Too many uncertainties. BMW obviously has issues that need correcting with this vehicle. Without a friend on the inside I would not dare to buy a BMW now that I have a few years experience with them. Many of my friends have new BMW's and they all say the same thing...that they are extremely expensive vehicles to own. And I think that is the key, and that is that BMW wants customers who don't care how much money it costs them to maintain their car as long as it is one of the most exclusive motoring experiences around. Granted, it's not a Rolls Royce. They want people who would never dream of changing their own oil or even their wiper blades and expect to be treated like royalty when they walk in the door and don't care what it costs. The styling of a BMW is classic and is what draws people to them initally. Yes, Audi is making progress and the A8 is a wonderful automobile. But the wheels are so ugly they make the car look like a kit car. Meanwhile every wheel BMW crafts is a jewel. Such so that an aftermarket wheel is impossible to find to be more attractive than the stock BMW wheel. I have of late shifted my focus to the Q7 but the wheels bite. What is it...a mans suit is only as good as his shoes. Maybe BMW will get this thing straightened out soon. We'll see.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

compusatman said:


> I have followed you people for quite some time. I wanted an X5D. My good friend is a BMW mechanic. He says the DEF is controlled by the computer. He says the percentage of injection cannot be manipulated manually. Makes little difference to me because I have decided to give up on the X5D for now. Too many uncertainties. BMW obviously has issues that need correcting with this vehicle. Without a friend on the inside I would not dare to buy a BMW now that I have a few years experience with them. Many of my friends have new BMW's and they all say the same thing...that they are extremely expensive vehicles to own. And I think that is the key, and that is that BMW wants customers who don't care how much money it costs them to maintain their car as long as it is one of the most exclusive motoring experiences around. Granted, it's not a Rolls Royce. They want people who would never dream of changing their own oil or even their wiper blades and expect to be treated like royalty when they walk in the door and don't care what it costs. The styling of a BMW is classic and is what draws people to them initally. Yes, Audi is making progress and the A8 is a wonderful automobile. But the wheels are so ugly they make the car look like a kit car. Meanwhile every wheel BMW crafts is a jewel. Such so that an aftermarket wheel is impossible to find to be more attractive than the stock BMW wheel. I have of late shifted my focus to the Q7 but the wheels bite. What is it...a mans suit is only as good as his shoes. Maybe BMW will get this thing straightened out soon. We'll see.


Q7 is really a good choice. I am not sure about performance comparison btw q7 and x5d but looks wise q7 is far ahead. But you will definitely miss the torque of x5d.

Can you expand bit more on uncertainties of BMWs you are talking about. I am assuming you are talking about diesels. DEF is there with Q7 as well so you will have same issues


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## János (Jun 19, 2010)

compusatman said:


> I have followed you people for quite some time.




So *you're *the person I keep seeing in my rearview mirror! 

If you're really following us you know that most of us "D" owners are having a fantastic time. :thumbup:

There are bound to be some kinks to work out, but this is a very mature, proven technology in Europe (other than the USA emissions stuff).

So far so good ... knock on wood.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

János said:


> There are bound to be some kinks to work out, but this is a very mature, proven technology in Europe (other than the USA emissions stuff).


I also read on some magazine regarding BMWs' current 35d that it is refined and bulletproof version and has 12yrs of past behind it.


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## compusatman (Apr 14, 2010)

János said:


> So *you're *the person I keep seeing in my rearview mirror!
> 
> If you're really following us you know that most of us "D" owners are having a fantastic time. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


:drive: Covert. Yes, the Audi is attractive. The interior is wonderful. The diesel does not have the torque of the X5D. And yes, I am heart set on a diesel. I feel diesel is the immediate future...instead of electric or whatever they call them. The surface has only been scratched with diesel technology. I mean I'm not going to be driving the Nurbering in my SUV. That's what the "other" cars are for. So for me torque is the name of the game. But for diesel to go forward with this DEF thing, the consensus must change. I mean DEF will need to be available at the pump. And the DEF tank will need to be as large as the fuel tank. And it will need to be heated. So the design must change. And the price must come way down. Otherwise people will see no need to convert. Unless of course gasoline goes to say $8 dollars a gallon. I mean isn't that the way things work? The rich will afford gasoline for their classic cars and the masses will be forced to use the common medium. And let's be real...DEF is just a marketing ploy. The military uses WVO and SVO used motor oil,...anything else it can get to power it's heavy diesels. They have been experimenting with it for decades. Not to mention the farmers. In Tennessee if you don't at least understand how to make your own diesel and you buy your fuel at a station then you are a city boy. I guess I am a little of both. But the fact remains, diesel is an untapped technology. Read...unused technonogy. Diesel/DEF is like cell phones. Remember when we first heard of 3G phones...long about '94/'95. Well we were paying for the network then but we still don't have 3G. OK so you all use an iPhone 4G. Whatever. The point is DEF is just like cell phones. Anyway, my BMW guy says that the only problems the shop in my town sees with the DEF diesels is in the winter time. And that is the unheated tank freezing. According to him they see that problem regularly. But the rest is almost a nonissue. So in the short term I see BMW addressing that issue in the near future. With either a recall to upgrade to a heated tank or instead to upgrade it on the next model year. So sorry to ramble János and much of this post was not meant for you personally even though it was a quote. Anyway, I won't be in your mirror too much longer. HAGD.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

so you are taking q7 gas version?

Strange that I never heard of that problem. Nor did my car had any issues in last winter. Will have to search about it.

good luck with your purchase


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## compusatman (Apr 14, 2010)

bimmerdiesel said:


> so you are taking q7 gas version?
> 
> Strange that I never heard of that problem. Nor did my car had any issues in last winter. Will have to search about it.
> 
> good luck with your purchase


Thanks for the support BD. I just won't buy a gas SUV. And the Audi ond the X5D are my only candidates. The Audi styling is very appealing to me. But a test drive pretty much tells the tale. And even though the Audi styling is something I like, the X5 has classic lines that don't grow old. I like them both but practicality will most likely rule and that most likely leans to the BMW. I will continue to read everyones experiences. I hope your experience continues to be a positive one.


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## János (Jun 19, 2010)

compusatman said:


> And let's be real...DEF is just a marketing ploy.


I wouldn't say DEF is a marketing ploy, but it is one way for these excellent European diesels to be legal in all 50 states. Without that certification these vehicles would never be seen here.

Without a doubt these emission controls will be refined over time. I'm willing to spring for the technology now - I guess I'm one of those 'early adopters'. 



> But the fact remains, diesel is an untapped technology. Read...unused technonogy.


The DEF portion is relatively new but otherwise I'm comforted by the thought that the world pretty much runs on diesel engines.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

János said:


> I'm comforted by the thought that the world pretty much runs on diesel engines.


+1

Its just US which is lagging way behind in adopting diesel but I should also say its US laws(carb to be precise) that led to development of DEF technologies.


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## compusatman (Apr 14, 2010)

DEF is merely a way to force people to buy corporate diesel. Because these engines won't run very well on WVO, SVO, or BIO. The grass roots movement for these alternative fuel uses has been going on in this country for decades. And the US Military leads the way. So yes, the information is there for diesels to run on virtually free fuel. At worst, half the current pump price of corporate diesel. This emisions mandate for diesels beginning 2009 is a government method to force people to have to use corporate diesel. Nothing more. So yes it is a marketing ploy...put in force by the federal government in order to lead the way in the globalization of green diesel. Anyway, I'm not concerned because the trucking industry and the farming industry will find a way to circumvent this lame technology. How many of you have read about WVO, SVO, BIO Diesel, 50/50 pump diesel + used motor oil as fuels. How many of you know what fuel Mr. Diesel originally intended to use in his invention? Don't fire back at me until you come up to speed on this subject. Read what the emissions are on SVO. Then tell me DEF is not a marketing ploy. Read what the compression is on a diesel engine versus gasoline. Read the combustion temperatures. When you take your used motor oil to Advance Auto or whereever you take it what do you think happens to it. You think it gets re-refined? Incredible. I'll give you a hint...I was a Chef in different kitchens for the better part of 25 years. Your Chateaubriand hits the floor and somebody accidently steps on it. Guess what happens? You're in surgery and are medicated heavily, you get a rise 15 minutes before the surgeon gets there. Guess what happens? You buy a new BMW D and at 5K miles you are out of DEF...guess what happened? Why, you think diesel is dirty? Any of you have any idea where your electricity comes from? Any of you ever see a coal-fired power plant in operation...in person? Any of you ever see an engine on a ship? Have any idea what kind of engine it is? My point? DEF is pure profit. Water and Urea. And your diesel won't run without it. When it gets to the pump (by the end of this year) it will cost a bit less than diesel fuel. Maybe a bit less than gasoline. So there you go. Now next, you will be forced to drive a diesel. Anyway, even though you think I am out in left field checkout these two links. You will find them informative. Trust me, no tricks. http://fleetowner.com/management/news/def-pumps-truckstops-0902/ and http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/MB10033.pdf


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

compusatman said:


> DEF is merely a way to force people to buy corporate diesel. Because these engines won't run very well on WVO, SVO, or BIO. The grass roots movement for these alternative fuel uses has been going on in this country for decades. And the US Military leads the way. So yes, the information is there for diesels to run on virtually free fuel. At worst, half the current pump price of corporate diesel. This emisions mandate for diesels beginning 2009 is a government method to force people to have to use corporate diesel. Nothing more. So yes it is a marketing ploy...put in force by the federal government in order to lead the way in the globalization of green diesel. Anyway, I'm not concerned because the trucking industry and the farming industry will find a way to circumvent this lame technology. How many of you have read about WVO, SVO, BIO Diesel, 50/50 pump diesel + used motor oil as fuels. How many of you know what fuel Mr. Diesel originally intended to use in his invention? Don't fire back at me until you come up to speed on this subject. Read what the emissions are on SVO. Then tell me DEF is not a marketing ploy. Read what the compression is on a diesel engine versus gasoline. Read the combustion temperatures. When you take your used motor oil to Advance Auto or whereever you take it what do you think happens to it. You think it gets re-refined? Incredible. I'll give you a hint...I was a Chef in different kitchens for the better part of 25 years. Your Chateaubriand hits the floor and somebody accidently steps on it. Guess what happens? You're in surgery and are medicated heavily, you get a rise 15 minutes before the surgeon gets there. Guess what happens? You buy a new BMW D and at 5K miles you are out of DEF...guess what happened? Why, you think diesel is dirty? Any of you have any idea where your electricity comes from? Any of you ever see a coal-fired power plant in operation...in person? Any of you ever see an engine on a ship? Have any idea what kind of engine it is? My point? DEF is pure profit. Water and Urea. And your diesel won't run without it. When it gets to the pump (by the end of this year) it will cost a bit less than diesel fuel. Maybe a bit less than gasoline. So there you go. Now next, you will be forced to drive a diesel. Anyway, even though you think I am out in left field checkout these two links. You will find them informative. Trust me, no tricks. http://fleetowner.com/management/news/def-pumps-truckstops-0902/ and http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/MB10033.pdf


Well you just opened another bowl of worms. Will need to go through article to understand what exactly are you saying:dunno::dunno:


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## compusatman (Apr 14, 2010)

My point BD is if cleaning up the environment is not a profitable venture...read more profitable than the dirty status quo then it won't be implemented. Period. SVO is almost as clean as DEF but the oil companies don't stand to make a penny from it. Solar and wind electricity production has been around for 30 years. Do you know anyone off the grid? I know one person. And he is wealthy enough to afford it. If we really wanted to be green then it is possible now. But it is impossible because no one can afford it. Do you enjoy being spoon fed? I don't. So you say, "Can you afford to drive an 80K BMW?" "Then calm down and just understand that you can't change the world." Maybe go fishing huh? :thumbup:


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

compusatman said:


> My point BD is if cleaning up the environment is not a profitable venture...


Agree on that one, and eco friendly energy will never be profitable till gallon of fuel stays at the price it is in this country.
but I'm having hard time understanding the fact that burning BIO or SVO causes no NOx emissions which DEF limits. Actually it's been proven producing BIO as well as SVO has greater eco impact that producing petrol diesel.
.....well let not get too carried away and return to the topic OP started in this thread :thumbup:


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## Hans Weisman (Oct 29, 2015)

lillyONzulily said:


> More important question for me is how to flush out the system before you refill. I watched that YouTube video and he just refilled it with no prior flush.
> So, this may be the reason why the $tealer wants $300?


Hi there,

I can confirm ,there is absolutely no need to drain the tank before refilling.
I'm a German engineer that helped design the SCR systems for trucks back 12 years ago.

Just fill it yourself, buy it at truck stop, gas station, walmart, just check that the producer is certified:

North America: Check API website
Europe: Check VDA.de website

Any other info you might need at these sites:

North America DEF: www.dieselexhaustfluid-urea.com
Europe AdBlue: www.adblue-urea.com

:thumbup:


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Hans Weisman said:


> Hi there, I can confirm ,there is absolutely no need to drain the tank before refilling. I'm a German engineer that helped design the SCR systems for trucks back 12 years ago.
> 
> Just fill it yourself, buy it at truck stop, gas station, walmart, just check that the producer is certified:
> 
> ...


Will you comment on stale-dating DEF please? Should we look for use-by dates on API/ISO containers or effects of exceeding use-by dates?


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## Hans Weisman (Oct 29, 2015)

Doug Huffman said:


> Will you comment on stale-dating DEF please? Should we look for use-by dates on API/ISO containers or effects of exceeding use-by dates?


Sure!

The ISO states that IF stored in ideal conditions the shelf life of DEF is 12 months (recently under revision to become 18 months).

But, of course when you buy a jug at a truck stop you have no idea how it was stored...

Being Urea, and DEF, chemicals, producers are obliged to indicate a presumed expiry date. You can imagine that a full pallet of jugs is not easy to sell in some isolated stores, and some old jugs can be found around. Some minor producers fail to indicate the "use by" date.

DEF does not degrade with time, the only factor that could damage the product is heat (Urea frees ammonia and the Urea% will decrease).
During tests made in Germany we have noticed that after years, Urea could deposit at the bottom of the container.

Always remember, the only way to damage the SCR system is using contaminated DEF (metals, minerals, even tap water). Old DEF is not harmful to the system, if urea concentration is slightly lower, the system will automatically dose some more, you will only consume DEF a little bit quicker.

:bigpimp:


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Hans Weisman said:


> Sure!
> 
> The ISO states that IF stored in ideal conditions the shelf life of DEF is 12 months (recently under revision to become 18 months). ... DEF does not degrade with time, the only factor that could damage the product is heat (Urea frees ammonia and the Urea% will decrease). During tests made in Germany we have noticed that after years, Urea could deposit at the bottom of the container ...


Thank you. as I thought. The urea deposits are a bit puzzling considering the solubility of urea - > 1 kg/kg @ 20°C. Were the deposits analyzed, as for the presence of other than CO(NH2)2 ?

In any case, thank you for sharing your experience and expertise.

I used to direct a chemical sludge removal process using a witches brew of aqueous solution of NH4OH, EDTA, EDA, H2NNH2/N2H4 with a troop of chemists for advice.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

I don't recall any label with an expiration date on it for DEF/Blue.


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