# No longer the Ultimate Driving Experience: Why do we stick to the brand?



## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

I think I have reached a point where my next purchase will not be a BMW.

When I compare with the competition, I am finding less and less reason to stick to the brand. I really do not know what the brand stands for anymore.

*Driving Experience*
My first BMW was an E39 bought in 2003. The Titanium Silver color was beautiful. And even base engine in the 525 provided a wonderful connected feeling with the road. You could aim the car and it would turn and follow your commands exactly.

Over the years, the specificity of the steering wheel, that wonderful feeling of control you had, has gradually disappeared.

*Quality of the Interiors*
While BMW interior were always polished, they never exuded luxury. It was meant to be a driver's car and not a cushy lux-mobile. The driver's car experience has gradually diminished. But the luxury factor of the interiors is also falling further behind.

We have been looking at different brands, and even the Mazda CX9 ($45K) Signature has Napa leather standard. 
A 60K car should not be showing so much of plastic when a 45K Mazda does much better.

*Ride Quality/Noise*
Audi's and Lexus are much more smoother to ride on. The newer Audi's are very quiet and have top-quality interiors. The new A4 is even quieter than the S Class or the Lexus LS

And Audi's handling is very much comparable to BMWs. Even the CX9 is quieter than most vehicles.

*Price Inflation*
My E39 had a sticker price in the low 40s, with Sports & Premium package. These days a similarly equipped G30 is in the mid 50s; easily a 25% increase in comparable trim.

And it is not that the latest Bimmers come with with a lot of tech as standard; most of the tech is now standard across mainstream brands. For example, Toyota Safety Sense is available across the line, and at a lower cost.

*Hassle of Purchase*
Ordering a new BMW used to be a relatively pain free process. Get the price sheet from the Fest, build your car, send the build, get a quote at $xxxx over base, and you are done.

As a result of the inflated prices there are discount galore all over with the new 7 series G11/G12 being advertised at 15-20% of sticker.

Some of these incentives are public, others are not so public incentives, dealer kickbacks, special deals (like corporate). You have to work harder just to figure out what the market price is. And if you do not doing your homework you may end up paying $10K more (imagine someone not aware of the markdowns on the 740s who walks into a dealership).

*Dealer Consolidation and Decline of Service*
With the consolidation of dealer networks, the quality of service has gone down a bit; and you see more of the conventional auto dealer tactics.

For example, an interesting thing happened in my last CPO purchase was that the dealer did not process the loan with BMWFS; instead it went to a bank which their dealer group preferred (got more kickbacks).

As a result I am not a returning BMWFS customer and do not qualify for some loyalty rebates.

*Cost of ownership Increase*
One reason I could use to justify serial ownership of Bimmers was the bumper to bumber maintenance for four years. Now that is another $2K extra.

They also seem to be cracking down on other ways of reducing the cost of ownership (like MSDs).

*Hassle of Service*
My 328 convertible is out of the maintenance plan and I took it for a brake flush and oil change. Both are supposed to be a part of the value service, but the service agent wanted to charge $100 for the 'standard scope' and another $200 for full vehicle inspection.

I could not understand why 'standard scope' and 'full vehicle inspection' have to be billed separately. Finally I told him that I would pay another $200 for the inspection beyond the 'value service' prices.

I mentioned that this was the first time I was paying for maintenance, and he quipped that these cars are _expensive to maintain_. I do not mind paying $129 for an annual oil change, but the expectation being set was that every time the car is due for service, expect to pony up.

Earlier you had well defined lists for Inspection I, Inspection II etc. and I did not have to fork out another $200 for an 'inspection' when I go for annual service.

*Brand Reliability*
There are just too many drive train problems with BMWs over the past decades. According to Consumer Reports Audi is now their most reliable German brand. I can understand new tech not being reliable, but something as old as turbo charged engines should be bullet proof now.

As it turns out the only vehicle Mrs. BABF likes is the 7 series. But their reliability is so iffy...

What exactly are we buying BMWs for?

We ignored the low-lights because the highlight, the driving experience was ultimate. Now that feeling is gone...

You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'


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## Asteroid (Aug 17, 2005)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> As it turns out the only vehicle Mrs. BABF likes is the 7 series. But their reliability is so iffy...


I went to a driving school and in my group was a BMW technician (he definitely knew what he was talking about and this is not just my opinion but let's say he won some kind of prize for being good, I'm being vague to protect his identity) and in his experience 7's with V-8 engines were just ticking time bombs. His recommendation was to stick to the I-6 engines.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

Take your post and replace BMW with the name of almost any car manufacturer and you get the same complaints. Before my current BMW, I drove a diesel VW. The posts on that forum were amazing! Complaints about dealers and quality abounded. I especially liked the ones that complained about "thin paint". And why weren't more models available with manual transmissions? Better seats? More quality interiors? Just the same old story all over again.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> I think I have reached a point where my next purchase will not be a BMW.
> 
> When I compare with the competition, I am finding less and less reason to stick to the brand. I really do not know what the brand stands for anymore.


I just got my 2017 330i, I went and drove all the cars in that segment, and out of all them the new Alfa was the standout, the reason why I didn't get it was, lease payment was $80/m more then my car, and reliability of the car.

Lexus IS, nice car but again, Lexus really needs to be aggressive on the payments.
Acura TLX was a joke, the 4cyl was lethargic at best, the V6 transmission was lazy and again the lease payments were high, even with 6500 back from Acura.

Volvo's the new S60 will be nice once it's hits the market but again, lease payments.

MB, was competitive in the payment game, but didn't drive as nice as the BMW.

Infiniti 4 cyl Q50 is a dog, the V6 is much better but the lease payments were higher.

So I went back to BMW, my 2017 is light years ahead of my 2013, the engine and transmission are excellent, nothing can beat them, the suspension has the right amount of firmness but gives a comfortable ride. I think people need to stop looking back and thinking that BMWs today need to be like BMWs of yesteryear.

I only plan on coding my car and install the JB4 on my car, but I do wish BMW would allow us to have the M Adaptive Suspension as a stand alone option, I really don't want the track package or M Sport package. What I find interesting is, if I ordered a 328d, I can order the M adaptive Suspension as a stand alone options... Why not the other 3 series?


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## Dr. F (Apr 29, 2017)

I recently drove a 2018 Audi S4 thinking that maybe it was time to move away from BMW. While I agree that Audi and other companies have made great strides to surpass BMW in a couple areas, I was not impressed by the S4. A fine car but I do not think it drove better than a BMW. The interior features were nice, but the technology was distracting and made me feel ADD. I also feel like Audi has failed in exterior styling. I guess for me, the Audi looks and drives more bulky than a BMW.


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## SergioCordoza (Mar 27, 2009)

i thought about leaving brand seriously after all of this.. but just cant seem to do it. I like the car, i like the ED experience, i like how it drives. To be honest i never even drove a MB, lexus, any of them.. never did.. because did not have the desire to do so. Maybe that would open me up to other brands but right now i do not have the desire to even do that. i am waiting to see what BMW has towards later part of the year.


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## beware_phog (Mar 7, 2003)

Perfect troll topic. Impressive.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

what are you "asking a dealer" about on this topic? I know not a lot of dealers participate anymore (and its pretty obvious why), but most of the conversation in this part of the forum is about pricing, etc around leasing or purchasing these cars. This type of post should be in one of the specific model year forums... either the 3s or the 5s depending on what model you were shopping.


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## Viperbeemer (Dec 3, 2015)

beware_phog said:


> Perfect troll topic. Impressive.


This doesn't strike me as a troll topic. He makes some very valid points. BMW likes to pass itself off as the ultimate driving machine. Its not though. Not even close. They have inflated prices for "tech" that doesn't work a decent amount of the time. On top of that, I do not care who you are, the repair process and prices is so far out of control.


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

Wouldn't a new Corvette be a better driving machine since these things mostly all have electric motorized steering now?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Viperbeemer said:


> This doesn't strike me as a troll topic. He makes some very valid points. BMW likes to pass itself off as the ultimate driving machine. Its not though. Not even close. They have inflated prices for "tech" that doesn't work a decent amount of the time. On top of that, I do not care who you are, the repair process and prices is so far out of control.


No, its not a troll topic to me either, BUT its typical "angsty" "I am taking my ball and going home". I personally have never got the point of coming to a message board to complain about something like this.

"I am buying something else!!!" Well great! everyone needs to make the right decision for them, and thats cool. What I dont get is why people feel the need to come "announce" it like somehow thats important, other than the fact some people just want to either complain, or have some sort of discussion about something they already made up their mind about.

Obviously OP has been on bimmerfest a LOOONG time (2004!), but I dont get the complaining... why not just go buy something else if thats what a person wants to do?

The counter argument is normally " well thats what a message board is for" and thats something I dont happen to agree with. To me, boards like this are for people to help each other, either by identifying problems or getting help with pricing, or ownership.

Not for complaining about why they wont buy the next model.

Others see it differently (of course) but I just dont get it.

OP great that you decided to go buy something else, if thats the right decision for you.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

jjrandorin said:


> what are you "asking a dealer" about on this topic? I know not a lot of dealers participate anymore (and its pretty obvious why), but most of the conversation in this part of the forum is about pricing, etc around leasing or purchasing these cars. This type of post should be in one of the specific model year forums... either the 3s or the 5s depending on what model you were shopping.


Is the proprietary and confidential monthly playbook the main culprit of scarce dealer participation?

If they cannot disclose goodies like the good old days, what is the incentive of dealer participation?

As far as if this topic is appropriate for ask-a-dealer or not, the CAs who still participate appear to be quite enthusiastic about the products, so this thread appears to be fair game.


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## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

southcoastguy said:


> Take your post and replace BMW with the name of almost any car manufacturer and you get the same complaints.


:tsk: True. Just that the list has become really, really long for the BMW.



Eagle11 said:


> Why not the other 3 series?


Noise and ride comfort.

Mrs. BABF drives between two offices about 60 miles a day, and wants a quieter, smoother car which is more calming.

Earlier I could argue that the driving experience was unique, cost of ownership was reasonable etc., but now I find it hard to justify.



Dr. F said:


> I also feel like Audi has failed in exterior styling. I guess for me, the Audi looks and drives more bulky than a BMW.


Reaching a point in life where interior comfort matters more than exterior styling. Why do you think she _only_ likes the 7 series?



SergioCordoza said:


> i thought about leaving brand seriously after all of this.. but just cant seem to do it. I like the car, i like the ED experience, i like how it drives. To be honest i never even drove a MB, lexus, any of them.. never did.. because did not have the desire to do so. Maybe that would open me up to other brands but right now i do not have the desire to even do that. i am waiting to see what BMW has towards later part of the year.


I have never been as serious about leaving the brand as I am right now. Let me qualify the _leaving the brand part:_ I will still keep the convertible but find an independent mechanic 



jjrandorin said:


> No, its not a troll topic to me either, BUT its typical "angsty" "I am taking my ball and going home".
> OP great that you decided to go buy something else, if thats the right decision for you.


Breaking up is never easy to do...

And the reason I am posting this is because I want old friends like @Adrian's BMW, @SARAFIL opinion also.


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## Shon528 (Oct 3, 2003)

Are the OP's feelings and conclusions out of line? No, he has some valid thoughts. However, the title of this forum is "Ask-A-Dealer" and nowhere do I see a question being asked for one of the CA's to answer. It is certainly a topic they may be interested in as to why some customers are leaving, but the question raised at the end of the post is directed to other fellow buyers, not to a salesman.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Shon528 said:


> Are the OP's feelings and conclusions out of line? No, he has some valid thoughts. However, the title of this forum is "Ask-A-Dealer" and nowhere do I see a question being asked for one of the CA's to answer. It is certainly a topic they may be interested in as to why some customers are leaving, but the question raised at the end of the post is directed to other fellow buyers, not to a salesman.


This sub forum has changed quite a bit, namely it no longer is the place to get unabridged info about deals and incentives and such.

Do note that even the CAs themselves have tough time to decipher the monthly confidential playbook, let alone figure out what is already public and what is not. So the prudent strategy is to not participate.

CAs seem to be still enthusiastic about the products, and the buying experience, and the service experience(maybe?), so OP's topic is inline with the current state of ask-a-dealer.


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## Shon528 (Oct 3, 2003)

Eagle11 said:


> I just got my 2017 330i, I went and drove all the cars in that segment, and out of all them the new Alfa was the standout, the reason why I didn't get it was, lease payment was $80/m more then my car, and reliability of the car.
> 
> Lexus IS, nice car but again, Lexus really needs to be aggressive on the payments.
> Acura TLX was a joke, the 4cyl was lethargic at best, the V6 transmission was lazy and again the lease payments were high, even with 6500 back from Acura.
> ...


One of my favorites to this day is still the '07 & '08 TL Type-S with the 6-speed manual. FWD and torque steer but that is a car I could buy cash today and be happy with . I had high expectations for the new TLX.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

How about patriotism?

By buying BMW, you are supporting the largest manufacturer of US made vehicles.


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## Kar Don (Aug 4, 2004)

chrischeung said:


> How about patriotism?
> 
> By buying BMW, you are supporting the largest manufacturer of US made vehicles.


can you show data? I don't think that is correct... Toyota is coming to mind.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

Rusty34 said:


> Wouldn't a new Corvette be a better driving machine since these things mostly all have electric motorized steering now?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Bimmerfest mobile app


Corvettes are undoubtedly the best bargain if you want a performance vehicle.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

Shon528 said:


> Are the OP's feelings and conclusions out of line? No, he has some valid thoughts. However, the title of this forum is "Ask-A-Dealer" and nowhere do I see a question being asked for one of the CA's to answer. It is certainly a topic they may be interested in as to why some customers are leaving, but the question raised at the end of the post is directed to other fellow buyers, not to a salesman.


I wouldn't expect any dealer or salesperson to respond to this. So much of this is individual perception, not statistical data.


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