# 745i is a joke with it comes to pleasing me



## AutoXer (Oct 21, 2004)

philippek said:


> With all respect Dave, they didn't build the E65 with autoxers in mind.
> 
> That's why they built your car.


Are you making fun of me???? :rofl:

AutoXer


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Mathew said:


> IIRC, the buttons on the Mercs are bi-directional. Some of the buttons on the 7 Series are multidirectional; front, back, up, down, lean forward, and lean backwards.


Tell me this is technology...

The BMW 7 Series, for example, has more than 120 electric motors, :yikes: including 38 just for adjusting its seats, :thumbdwn: and dozens of microprocessors to control everything from the humidity inside the car to the angle at which the wipers rest on the windshield. :eeps: "The Japanese in general tend to try to simplify as much as possible," Mr. Champion said. :thumbup:

My 330i SP has manual (before they became power again) sport seats. :thumbup:


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

Dave 330i said:


> Tell me this is technology...
> 
> The BMW 7 Series, for example, has more than 120 electric motors, :yikes: including 38 just for adjusting its seats, :thumbdwn: and dozens of microprocessors to control everything from the humidity inside the car to the angle at which the wipers rest on the windshield. :eeps: "The Japanese in general tend to try to simplify as much as possible," Mr. Champion said. :thumbup:
> 
> My 330i SP has manual (before they became power again) sport seats. :thumbup:


:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

Dave 330i said:


> Maybe. I'm convinced that I am glad I didn't get stuck with a 745i and all the associated problems. It is apparent to me that a lot of 745 drivers have their heads in the sand. Rather, they need to voice their opinion that a luxury car does not have to be complicated to be satisfying.


Having that been said, a well known international franchise, could very well have enjoyed the same success, having been named 1 Flavors.
Fortunately, for some, simplistic survives as there is a market for the simplistic minded.
For me, complicated is satisfying. Adversity is merely a means of gaining strength to move forward.
-----------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world, 
Those who understand binary and those who don't. 
((bb || !bb))


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## Alamo (Sep 17, 2004)

Dave 330i said:


> 745i is a joke when it comes to pleasing me...
> 
> I drove the 745i several times, once at BMW Ultimate Driving Experience when I drove the car for the Susan G Komen Breast Cancer Foundation. Here was my opinion
> 
> ...


It's just more **** to go wrong.


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## drbmw (Oct 12, 2003)

Dave 330i said:


> Tell me this is technology...
> 
> The BMW 7 Series, for example, has more than 120 electric motors, :yikes: including 38 just for adjusting its seats, :thumbdwn: and dozens of microprocessors to control everything from the humidity inside the car to the angle at which the wipers rest on the windshield. :eeps: "The Japanese in general tend to try to simplify as much as possible," Mr. Champion said. :thumbup:
> 
> My 330i SP has manual (before they became power again) sport seats. :thumbup:


Down with technology. That's the spirit. Progress is counterproductive. Outhouses and candles for Dave all the way.


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## sclui56 (Oct 6, 2003)

Well, *King of Common Sense* , did it occur to you that BMW may not have intended to please you with the 7? It's one thing to express an opinion about something, but an entirely different one to get into an endless debate with so many 7 owners.

I don't think you would appreciate someone else trolling into the 3 section saying the 3 series is a failure in its class.

You talked about the seat controls vs the MBZ, and the amount of electronics on the 7, news for you, MBZ has quite a bit of technology on the S & E class, which has cost them a pretty sum in warranty repairs in recent years, why do you suppose they cut off the free maintenance for 05? Having said that, I would have preferred the controls on the door so I can see them easier, for the few times I needed to change....

I am not here to defend the 7, I don't drive it much as it's my wife's vehicle. Surely it has some quirks (kije I am still trying to figure out why the rear headrest decides to raise) but if my wife could manage to drive this vehicle for the past year without calling me for direction, then I think the controls in general are logical enough.

I just sold a FX45 and bought the H2, now how I wished the H2 would have even 10% of the technolgies found on the 7


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## RONAN (Nov 4, 2003)

The mark of a truly advanced technology,as against a complicated technology is the learning curve. A truly advanced technology is in inverse proportion to the learning curve. In 1920,you had to understand how you lubricate your car,patch tires yourself, and fix many things that broke routinely. We are now going back to having to know too much to operate the thing. 
What the Japanese have understood better recently than any of the German manufacturers is how to make things easy for the user. You should not need a manual of hundreds of pages to operate a car that is allegedly intelligent. In fact if takes hundreds of pages, the car is moronically dumb.......
The sad thing is that the traditional strength of BMW,(the ultimate driving machine), is being buried under the styling and electronic mistakes. Now it turns out that the next M6 (which will have incredibly useful things like Launch control and variable horsepwer), will not be available with a stick shift.
Maybe we should petition BMW for a mechanical edition of their cars...operable by a driver.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

RONAN said:


> The mark of a truly advanced technology,as against a complicated technology is the learning curve. A truly advanced technology is in inverse proportion to the learning curve. In 1920,you had to understand how you lubricate your car,patch tires yourself, and fix many things that broke routinely. We are now going back to having to know too much to operate the thing.
> What the Japanese have understood better recently than any of the German manufacturers is how to make things easy for the user. You should not need a manual of hundreds of pages to operate a car that is allegedly intelligent. In fact if takes hundreds of pages, the car is moronically dumb.......
> The sad thing is that the traditional strength of BMW,(the ultimate driving machine), is being buried under the styling and electronic mistakes. Now it turns out that the next M6 (which will have incredibly useful things like Launch control and variable horsepwer), will not be available with a stick shift.
> Maybe we should petition BMW for a mechanical edition of their cars...operable by a driver.


Well said. Exactly. Truly advanced technology should not be obtrusive or hard to use. It lookjs like BMW has atleast partly acknowledged htis as they hired a user-centered design firm to help them w/ the next gen 7 series.


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## cantona7 (Apr 8, 2004)

Count me in as one of those who slammed iDrive without having lived with it. In fact, I still haven't lived with it. But I do see where BMW is trying to go with it. I've only driven the 745i at an UD event, but was mightily impressed. That said, I think that the introduction of iDrive in that car was probably a mistake. The features of iDrive and its potential usefulness was undermined by the steep learning curve and usability bugs that plague first-generation UI systems. It also didn't help that the average age of the 7er buyer is probably a bit higher than that of the average tech-geek. Unfortunately, there was never going to be a good time to introduce it. If they debuted it in a 3er, it would risk alienating the core base of enthusiasts who prefer simpler cars (just look at the number "thank goodness iDrive is optional for the E90" posts). Perhaps waiting to introduce it in the E60 would have been the best compromise to make. But with the pressure to recoup development costs and the higher margins on the 7er, I can see why they made that business decision. 

I think that if they can refine and improve the UI of iDrive, BMW will be hailed as a visionary automaker for the 21st century. If they fail, it'll just be a footnote in the long history of good ideas poorly executed.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

cantona7 said:


> Count me in as one of those who slammed iDrive without having lived with it. In fact, I still haven't lived with it. But I do see where BMW is trying to go with it. I've only driven the 745i at an UD event, but was mightily impressed. That said, I think that the introduction of iDrive in that car was probably a mistake. The features of iDrive and its potential usefulness was undermined by the steep learning curve and usability bugs that plague first-generation UI systems. It also didn't help that the average age of the 7er buyer is probably a bit higher than that of the average tech-geek. Unfortunately, there was never going to be a good time to introduce it. If they debuted it in a 3er, it would risk alienating the core base of enthusiasts who prefer simpler cars (just look at the number "thank goodness iDrive is optional for the E90" posts). Perhaps waiting to introduce it in the E60 would have been the best compromise to make. But with the pressure to recoup development costs and the higher margins on the 7er, I can see why they made that business decision.
> 
> I think that if they can refine and improve the UI of iDrive, BMW will be hailed as a visionary automaker for the 21st century. If they fail, it'll just be a footnote in the long history of good ideas poorly executed.


I can't say that i-Drive is a better idea over push buttons. The whole idea of having to scroll through a menu requires your brain to think "subset". My eyes work much more efficiently in storing data to my brain than my hands. Rather, the next generation of cars will have voice or brain wave recognition. Push a button on the wheel to activate it, say right turn, volume up or down, home, Jamie. We already have voice recognition software with the airlines phone reservations. Your hands will always be on the wheel, your eyes on the road. :thumbup:


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

MB, Audi, Acura, etc. are already copying iDrive with their own versions, though. It'd be fine if it were implemented better. I think voice controls are probably better, but I wouldn't mind controlling things through an LCD touch-screen, or even more retro (sad to say), just give me buttons.


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

Dave 330i said:


> I can't say that i-Drive is a better idea over push buttons. The whole idea of having to scroll through a menu requires your brain to think "subset". My eyes work much more efficiently in storing data to my brain than my hands. Rather, the next generation of cars will have voice or brain wave recognition. Push a button on the wheel to activate it, say right turn, volume up or down, home, Jamie. We already have voice recognition software with the airlines phone reservations. Your hands will always be on the wheel, your eyes on the road. :thumbup:


News Flash: The "next generation of cars" arrived some 16 months ago.
The '04 5 series, was introduced last year, with the second generation of the idrive, which already has a complete voice recognition/command feature. There is nothing in the idrive you cannot do by voice command. BMW's goal being to design a vehicle in which the driver would never have to remove his/hers hand from the steering wheel to complete in-vehicle tasks. The idrive controller is now basically for the passenger's use, as the driver can complete all tasks via voice command. There is even a second voice command button, on the center console for the passenger, as the system can recognize any voice. Even if one may be too lazy to read the OM, and learn the simple voice commands, one can always say "help," to which the idrive voice lists the commands for you. It also has beyond voice recognition, to full speech recognition. eg if you have a phone book stored in your phone, once connected to the vehicle, you simply say the name of whom you want to call, the idrive system identifies your phone book entry, and then repeats your command in its "own" voice to confirm, to which you reply yes. The call is then completed.
-Push Button
-say "call Dave"
-idrive says "do you want to call Dave?"
-say "yes"
-idrive says "thank you, connecting"
-idrive display then returns to the screen displayed (NAV, etc)
With every spoken command, the idrive display changes its screen as each command is given.
What could possibly be simpler than pushing one button on your steering wheel (the same button everytime) and saying "FM 104.5," though you would need to know which station you wanted. You do not even need to have pre sets. The idrive even says please when it requests additional information, and thank you once provided.
If every new technology were perfect when first introduced, we would all still be using 8086's running DOS 2.0, and typing from A:> "chngdir:C; C:\windows\ie_exp\ie.exe" to launch our browser....though no one knew what a browser was back then!
Invalid Command
A:>

--------------------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world, 
Those who understand binary and those who don't. 
((bb || !bb))


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## RONAN (Nov 4, 2003)

On the other hand, when driving a high powered vehicle, you want a lot more intuitiveness and reliability than Windows, as an automobile crash is a lot more serious than a PC crash.I have the voice control on the 645 and it is so so. It has difficulty understanding numbers at times, and any attempt to use i-drive while driving is not great. The heating and a/c are outside the i-drive menus with buttons and dials at least, but, looking at a screen is not such a good idea in a standard shift car.
I would argue that an underdeveloped technology in a production car is not the mark of progress, but shows a degree of arrogance on the part of the manufacturer that people wil learn to like it.
The downside is that people who have had BMWs over successive models will not longer autmoatically use BMW as the default choice. And it is showing in sales as a result. In my case I had a 528 and two 540s, and could not warm to the brutal styling of the new 5. The 645 is less ugly and is definitely great to drive, but I am no longer a diehard BMW loyalist. Next time I will think very hard, and if there is no standard shift option on the M6, will go to Porsche which still has car assisted drivers, and not driver assisted cars in its lineup.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

How's the resale on these things?


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## breytonX5 (Sep 27, 2004)

RONAN said:


> On the other hand, when driving a high powered vehicle, you want a lot more intuitiveness and reliability than Windows, as an automobile crash is a lot more serious than a PC crash.I have the voice control on the 645 and it is so so. It has difficulty understanding numbers at times, and any attempt to use i-drive while driving is not great. The heating and a/c are outside the i-drive menus with buttons and dials at least, but, looking at a screen is not such a good idea in a standard shift car.
> I would argue that an underdeveloped technology in a production car is not the mark of progress, but shows a degree of arrogance on the part of the manufacturer that people wil learn to like it.
> The downside is that people who have had BMWs over successive models will not longer autmoatically use BMW as the default choice. And it is showing in sales as a result. In my case I had a 528 and two 540s, and could not warm to the brutal styling of the new 5. The 645 is less ugly and is definitely great to drive, but I am no longer a diehard BMW loyalist. Next time I will think very hard, and if there is no standard shift option on the M6, will go to Porsche which still has car assisted drivers, and not driver assisted cars in its lineup.


I agree for the most part with what you said except this statement: "And it is showing in sales as a result." BMW 3, 5 and 7 sales are down, but overall BMW-branded vehicle sales have actually increased from last year. You tend to compare sales of BMWs with Japanese brands which is like comparing apples and oranges. What's more important is that BMW is doing better than its German/European (MB, Audi, Jaguar) rivals in the NA market.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

breytonX5 said:


> I agree for the most part with what you said except this statement: "And it is showing in sales as a result." BMW 3, 5 and 7 sales are down, but overall BMW-branded vehicle sales have actually increased from last year. You tend to compare sales of BMWs with Japanese brands which is like comparing apples and oranges. What's more important is that BMW is doing better than its German/European (MB, Audi, Jaguar) rivals in the NA market.


It's sad that BMW is aiming at the new buyers who are buying the label and the gadgets that come along with its Bangle styling. BMW is ignoring the buyers who made the brand name famous. In the E90, you cannot get the NAV without the i-Drive, nor do you get the extra hump on the dash. If BMW continues towards being trend setters, I am willing to pay more and get a Porsche. I think it will be a while before Porsche will think that the i-Drive system is not distractive to use when you are munipulating the car through hair pin turns.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

kd2789mo said:


> With all due respect:
> If you walked into my home theatre, and attempted to record a DVD, while watching another, you wouldn't even know how to start my system. I can do it, by touch, in the dark.
> Perhaps if you owned and operated a 745 on a regular basis, your post would be respectable. No one could possibly recognize the incredible driver-oriented technology BMW has designed into the 745 on a mere 30 minute drive.
> BTW, the turn signal stalk is operating exactly as it was designed. Though, like with most anything else, if you do not understand how it's designed, you cannot understand why.


Your point is not relevant. New technology to perform new functions cannot be compared with new technology to perform the same functions that older technology was performing efficiently. There is no beneficial reason that I can think of for chnaging the seat adjustment system or changing something as simple as the way that the stalk operates. They changed with the philosophy of form over function. In other words they did it just to make it more technological not to make it easier.

You spoke about not understanding it after a 30 minute drive. Well, my father has had his for over a year now and I drive it about three times a week, I still can't understand the purpose of those two changes. the stalk seems so foreign. Don't get me worng you get used to it but why would you change something so inherent in every car. Its like creating a car that could rides on 5 wheels just because you can. It is a very nice car but when you have the car for so long you realize that the reason they are having so many electrical gremlins is because they tried to make everything more advanced and didn't pay enough attention to the pertinent issues.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

Mathew said:


> Put the fob in the ignition, step on brake, press the button that says START. I don't see what's so complicated about that.
> 
> I agree with pretty much everything kd said.


That has nothing to do with what KD said.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

drbmw said:


> Down with technology. That's the spirit. Progress is counterproductive. Outhouses and candles for Dave all the way.


This is a foolish statement. So all change is progress? Progress is determined by measuring various factors including ergonomics, user-friendliness, and time saving features. These improvements do none of these. My father doesn't even drive this car anymore. He drive the MB. Also, I might add jump in the benz and push the button, no need to insert a key. Now that's technology, no key just push the button and go. Satisfies one of the factors it saves time and hassle of having to deal with a key.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

RONAN said:


> The mark of a truly advanced technology,as against a complicated technology is the learning curve. A truly advanced technology is in inverse proportion to the learning curve. In 1920,you had to understand how you lubricate your car,patch tires yourself, and fix many things that broke routinely. We are now going back to having to know too much to operate the thing.
> What the Japanese have understood better recently than any of the German manufacturers is how to make things easy for the user. You should not need a manual of hundreds of pages to operate a car that is allegedly intelligent. In fact if takes hundreds of pages, the car is moronically dumb.......
> The sad thing is that the traditional strength of BMW,(the ultimate driving machine), is being buried under the styling and electronic mistakes. Now it turns out that the next M6 (which will have incredibly useful things like Launch control and variable horsepwer), will not be available with a stick shift.
> Maybe we should petition BMW for a mechanical edition of their cars...operable by a driver.


Great points.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Dave 330i said:


> I can't say that i-Drive is a better idea over push buttons. The whole idea of having to scroll through a menu requires your brain to think "subset". My eyes work much more efficiently in storing data to my brain than my hands. Rather, the next generation of cars will have voice or brain wave recognition. Push a button on the wheel to activate it, say right turn, volume up or down, home, Jamie. We already have voice recognition software with the airlines phone reservations. Your hands will always be on the wheel, your eyes on the road. :thumbup:


For the primary and secondary functions on most cars (and those that are controlled by buttons/ dials on an 46), I agree with you. There is absolutely no reason for a car to have less "hard button" functionality than an e46. OTOH, as manufacturers add increasing customization and features to their cars, it really doesn't make sense to be adding buttons all over the place. Its these "tertiary" functions and cusotmization featurees that are well suited to a computerized, screen based interface. These are the types of features and settings that you would expect people do use maybe once a day at the most. For example, allowing owners to control some of the settings that are now only dealer-settable via car/key memory. Of course, for these types of features, there's really no reason to have the interface to them to be such a prominent part of the car -- with a double-hump on the dahs and a dial displacing more useful storage space and even gearshifts. The possible solutiion to these "problems" seems quite obvious and simple, and it amazes me that BMW missed the boat. Make the screen a pop-up type screen (so it doesn't disfigure the dash and displace more useful features) and make it touch screen or put the knob that controls it back on the dash. The features it controls will be used seldom enough that it really won't matter that you can't receline in your seat with our arm draped on top of the knob to control it. The current BMW i-drive concept is particularly stupid because BMW seems to imply with the design that they expect you to be able to use it while driving-- of course that's a terrible idea, and I think their own legal "accept" screens warn you against doing so. :tsk:


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

good point, therefore they feel like you will never use it when your driving. I don't know about you guys but I'm not the only person who drives my car so I have to readjus tthe seat sometimes. And depending on what I'm wearing, if I feel like leaning back more, or if I'm waiting for someone to come outside and meet me I change my seat position. It looks nice with it integrated in the I-drive but its a lot easier just having the buttons on the seat. Having these functions in the I-drive is silly and overpopulates the system and causes problems. I like the idea of I-drive but it seems like BMW wanted it to control many functions so people would say it useful but someof those functions are better off with buttons.


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

Seat adjustments are not integrated into any idrive system. All BMW power seat adjustments are button controlled. Seat and vehicle ventilation is integrated into the idrive system, where applicable, which is the idrive display graphic you're referring to.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

kd2789mo said:


> Seat adjustments are not integrated into any idrive system. All BMW power seat adjustments are button controlled. Seat and vehicle ventilation is integrated into the idrive system, where applicable, which is the idrive display graphic you're referring to.


True. Although BMW was clearly so enamored w/ their i-drive interface that they tried to use a similar metaphor on the e65-power seat controls: press a button corresponding to the right seat "section", then use joystick to adjust. Pretty stupd. Fortunately, they ditched that idea w/ the e60. But, the mere fact that they actually implemented such stupid seat controls is evidence that they really have no clue when it comes to UI design.


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

robg said:


> Fortunately, they ditched that idea w/ the e60. But, the mere fact that they actually implemented such stupid seat controls is evidence that they really have no clue when it comes to UI design.


Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
"Genius is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration"
-A. Einstein


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

dagoo98 said:


> Your point is not relevant. New technology to perform new functions cannot be compared with new technology to perform the same functions that older technology was performing efficiently. There is no beneficial reason that I can think of for chnaging the seat adjustment system or changing something as simple as the way that the stalk operates. They changed with the philosophy of form over function. In other words they did it just to make it more technological not to make it easier.
> 
> You spoke about not understanding it after a 30 minute drive. Well, my father has had his for over a year now and I drive it about three times a week, I still can't understand the purpose of those two changes. the stalk seems so foreign. Don't get me worng you get used to it but why would you change something so inherent in every car. Its like creating a car that could rides on 5 wheels just because you can. It is a very nice car but when you have the car for so long you realize that the reason they are having so many electrical gremlins is because they tried to make everything more advanced and didn't pay enough attention to the pertinent issues.


Agree with above. There is a difference between technology for the sake of improved functionality vs technology for the sake of technology.

To those who say this is not intended for the 3 series drivers, I'm afraid they will try to push this down to us. The e90 looks like it's going to have iDrive, and we're all only hoping it's just an option.


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

dagoo98 said:


> That has nothing to do with what KD said.


You're right, it has nothing to do with KD said. Am I not allowed to talk about one thing, and comment on another? I thought I spaced it out clearly enough in my original post.


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

JPinTO said:


> How's the resale on these things?


The resale values on all luxo-cruisers are not that good to begin with.

Edit: What's with the all of a sudden bashing? We've done this in the past years and nothing new is being said.


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

Mathew said:


> The resale values on all luxo-cruisers are not that good to begin with.
> 
> Edit: What's with the all of a sudden bashing? We've done this in the past years and nothing new is being said.


For my part, I'm not bashing the 7. Even if I had the money, it's not the car for me. My only concern is seeing these trends filter down, first to the 5, and now to 3. I guess seeing those e90 pics with idrive on the dash freaked me out.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob325_in_AZ said:


> For my part, I'm not bashing the 7. Even if I had the money, it's not the car for me. My only concern is seeing these trends filter down, first to the 5, and now to 3. I guess seeing those e90 pics with idrive on the dash freaked me out.


I think I am in complete agreement with you. The filter down syndromes will come to the 3 series because the luxury technos made no attempt to dissuade BMW that the i-Drive and the rest of the luxo idiosyncrasies are not technology, but a gimmick.


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

Dave 330i said:


> I think I am in complete agreement with you. The filter down syndromes will come to the 3 series because the luxury technos made no attempt to dissuade BMW that the i-Drive and the rest of the luxo idiosyncrasies are not technology, but a gimmick.


Perhaps as long as the i-drive remains optional and very few opt for it, maybe we can still voice our opinion with our wallet. My worry is when these 'advancements' are forced upon us.


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

Rob325_in_AZ said:


> Perhaps as long as the i-drive remains optional and very few opt for it, maybe we can still voice our opinion with our wallet. My worry is when these 'advancements' are forced upon us.


Progress, whether good progress, bad progress, or indifferent, is an inherit breed of our being.
Many of today's society would advocate the computer was forced upon them, rightfully so.
20 years from now, all cars will be unlocked by fingerprint identification. The operator will be identified by retina scan, once seated in the vehicle, unlocking all systems, and will speak, start engine, presuming the car is still powered by the internal combustion engine.
The visions of today, whether optional or standard, 20 years from now, will be standard equipment on what, we today know as, the Corolla and Cavalier.
Many points have been made in this thread, some good, some bad, others indifferent.
20 years from now, they will all be moot.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

kd2789mo said:


> Progress, whether good progress, bad progress, or indifferent, is an inherit breed of our being.
> Many of today's society would advocate the computer was forced upon them, rightfully so.
> 20 years from now, all cars will be unlocked by fingerprint identification. The operator will be identified by retina scan, once seated in the vehicle, unlocking all systems, and will speak, start engine, presuming the car is still powered by the internal combustion engine.
> The visions of today, whether optional or standard, 20 years from now, will be standard equipment on what, we today know as, the Corolla and Cavalier.
> ...


One question is do you want to drive the car or the car to drive you? If you love a car for its driving passion, then the future is not for you.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

kd2789mo said:


> Progress, whether good progress, bad progress, or indifferent, is an inherit breed of our being.
> Many of today's society would advocate the computer was forced upon them, rightfully so.
> 20 years from now, all cars will be unlocked by fingerprint identification. The operator will be identified by retina scan, once seated in the vehicle, unlocking all systems, and will speak, start engine, presuming the car is still powered by the internal combustion engine.
> The visions of today, whether optional or standard, 20 years from now, will be standard equipment on what, we today know as, the Corolla and Cavalier.
> ...


THere's bad technology that just gets in the way and makes life more difficult or frustrating, and there's also good technology that improves our lives and doesn't make itself a burden. Your example of a car that uses fingerprints would be an example of an unobtrusive technology-- it improves things without getting in the way. The i-drive, in its current form, is bad technology.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

Oh dear, more Idrive discussions. You know what, just go check in the 1 Series thread... the Idrive pictures. Those pictures contain pretty much all the features of the I-drive. If you find that so incredibly complicated and you need to change those settings all the time (minus the navigation) then I really don't know what to say to you.

Although one valid point would be if you are only talking about the current I-drive in the 7 series. now this system is too complicated I agree. For the love of god, the I-drive is color coded... how can it be so complicated? ANd the other thing is that driving a car for 30 minutes, of course you cannot learn everything. i just do not understand why you cannot just sit down and get to know your car?


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Warot said:


> Oh dear, more Idrive discussions. You know what, just go check in the 1 Series thread... the Idrive pictures. Those pictures contain pretty much all the features of the I-drive. If you find that so incredibly complicated and you need to change those settings all the time (minus the navigation) then I really don't know what to say to you.
> 
> Although one valid point would be if you are only talking about the current I-drive in the 7 series. now this system is too complicated I agree. For the love of god, the I-drive is color coded... how can it be so complicated? ANd the other thing is that driving a car for 30 minutes, of course you cannot learn everything. i just do not understand why you cannot just sit down and get to know your car?


The argument against i-Drive is not only its complication, or having just to take a few minutes to learn it, but the question is why reinvent the wheel when it is not necessary. BMW tried to sell the idea that you do not have to take your eyes off the road when you munipulate the knob. Quite the contray, it requires the driver not only having to look at the i-Drive screen, but having to locate where the functions of each system (AC, NAV, radio, etc) are located on the screen. Why is it necessary to have to locate the radio on the menu, then push the button many times to get volume louder on the radio? Isn't rotating the volume knob a lot more intuitive and simpler to use? The evolution of the location of radio, NAV, AC, etc button placements have conditioned the driver's operation to almost to a routine over the years, now, BMW has changed all of that. If MBZ ever screen this forum, please, give me a thousand buttons over the i-Drive system.


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## Heidi528 (Nov 9, 2004)

Mathew said:


> The resale values on all luxo-cruisers are not that good to begin with.
> 
> Edit: What's with the all of a sudden bashing? We've done this in the past years and nothing new is being said.


There is no resale value that I can see. I have an '04 745Li, 4000 miles. Sticker price of over $82,000. The wholesalers offer about $60,000. I suppose paying $5 per mile to drive it might be a bit steep...


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Mathew Edit: What's with the all of a sudden bashing? We've done this in the past years and nothing new is being said.[/QUOTE said:


> I am one of those who have recently encountered the i-Drive first hand twice in the 745i, and once in the 545i. To my frustration, the i-Drive is not intuitive to learn. Try making adjustments while you are concentrating on your driving the car for the first time. If cell phone usage while driving is considered dangerous, then so is the i-Drive. It should be outlawed too. BMW needs to know about this. The solution is not voice your opinion by your wallet. The i-Drive has filtered down to the E90. My understanding is you cannot get the NAV without the i-Drive.


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

Dave, your lack of experience hinders your credibility on this subject. Yes, it does take effort to learn it. If you try to learn it with a narrow, close-minded perspective, it won't work. For a rocket scientist like yourself, it shouldn't take more than fifteen minutes to learn, twenty for the rest of us. I realize that the fact that you have to "learn" something is putting off some people. I do realize this is a subject worthy of debate, and I do think it could be more intuitive to learn. I also think that dealers, in general, could do a better job at explaining the system.

That having been said, so what? Myself and the other 7 and 5 series drivers that have used iDrive more than the three times you have toyed with it have gotten used to it. Once you know what you are doing, it becomes routine. You _will_ get used to it. As I have said many times before, the most cumbersome part about iDrive is putting in your personal settings. After that, everything is point and click, whether you want to realize it or not. And only an idiot would make these adjustments while driving. It took me only two minutes to do this sitting in my garage. I have also said that you do not need to use iDrive on a daily basis. Radio, air, and phone controls are all on the steering wheel and/or center console, just like they have always been. If you do want to use the navigation system, I have found that is similar to the nav system in previous model lines, including the E46. And if you are using a navigation system while driving, that is just inherently distracting, no matter what system you are using. I would rather not have this type of system in any car, but many people have the same common misconceptions about it. If you must have a BMW E90 3 Series with nav, then you don't have a choice. Common sense has always told me you can't have everything your way.

You can complain all you want about BMW being out of touch, but when was the last time BMW actually tried to appease its enthusiast drivers?


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

Dave, no offense but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are saying you have tried it but obviously, you just went in the car with a closed mind. You don't adjust the damn volume through the I-drive man. Like I said before, way too many people think that you cannot operate the car with the I-drive. How is that true? The climate control is there, you can change your station through the steeering wheel and THE VOLUME IS A KNOB... how can you miss that? 
The only reason you would use the I-drive while actually driving is to change your destination on the NAV... but you had to do that as well on previous cars so what's your argument for that? If you are changing your damn ligh settings while driving, then it's your fault. No offense man, but you really need to know what you are talking about.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Warot said:


> Dave, no offense but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are saying you have tried it but obviously, you just went in the car with a closed mind. You don't adjust the damn volume through the I-drive man. Like I said before, way too many people think that you cannot operate the car with the I-drive. How is that true? The climate control is there, you can change your station through the steeering wheel and THE VOLUME IS A KNOB... how can you miss that?
> The only reason you would use the I-drive while actually driving is to change your destination on the NAV... but you had to do that as well on previous cars so what's your argument for that? If you are changing your damn ligh settings while driving, then it's your fault. No offense man, but you really need to know what you are talking about.


I may not know everything that is involved with i-Drive, but I know it is not necessary and it is very inconvenient to me. How can you defend such an idiotic system? Do you think it is better than the pushing buttons and rotating knobs that we are so used to? I suspect BMW's implimentation of the i-Drive will eventually go down as an Edsel with gear shifting buttons on the steering wheel, and the Plymouth Fury with the rotating driver's seat. I don't know whether you are too young to appreciate these laughters.

I am old enough to appreciate the 745i, but I don't. It troubles me a lot. Money is not the issue. The problem I see after driving many different luxury cars is that the driving, steering, and braking technologies have become very competitive. They all have anti locking brakes, active roll bars, sensors to keep you from under and over steers, etc. They all work pretty much the same. Today's luxury cars are very stable. It is very difficult to get them to surprise you in a turn or under hard braking. Under extreme driving situations, th E320 and the SC430 are very stable cars, very forgiving. So, the manufacturers are offering gimmicks to sell cars. So far BMW has toped everyone with the i-Drive.


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

Dave 330i said:


> ....will eventually go down as an Edsel with gear shifting buttons on the steering wheel, and the Plymouth Fury with the rotating driver's seat. I don't know whether you are too young to appreciate these laughters.


Interesting, exactly what the Akers told Gates and Allen in the early 70's.
You should save this thread, in 2014, you will be able to place a 5000gb disk, the size of a dime, into a slot in your car, and have the car's voice read it to you, while it's displayed on your dash screen. Yes indeed, you will be able to have these posts read to you, by your cars voice, and you will be able to respond in your voice, all while driving home from work. Alas, you still will probably need to press One button.
btw, was that the Fury II or Fury III?
:banghead: :banghead:

From MediaLink News - Jan, 2000
_"(JANUARY-2000) -- Imagine unlocking the door of your car with a voice command and then getting behind the wheel and adjusting key controls such as climate and audio the same way. 
This dream car would also offer drivers Internet access, a navigation system with turn-by-turn instructions to a destination, a state-of-the-art emergency messaging system -- and a rear seat entertainment system designed to keep the kids happy. 
This technology isn't something on the drawing board or out of a Jetsons episode. Designed by Visteon Automotive Systems, it is featured on several vehicles at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas (January 5-9). 
Visteon's unique ICES system for cars (Information, Communication, Entertainment, Safety and Security System) is designed to bring the comfort and conveniences of the home and office to the car."_
Ref: http://www.medialink.com/medialink/00-005.shtml


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

Dave 330i said:


> I may not know everything that is involved with i-Drive, but I know it is not necessary and it is very inconvenient to me. How can you defend such an idiotic system? Do you think it is better than the pushing buttons and rotating knobs that we are so used to? I suspect BMW's implimentation of the i-Drive will eventually go down as an Edsel with gear shifting buttons on the steering wheel, and the Plymouth Fury with the rotating driver's seat. I don't know whether you are too young to appreciate these laughters.


Dave, you claim that you know enough about the I-drive, yet you do not even know that you can change the volume in two seperate places? How can that be? You don't know why people are defending such an "idiotic" system yet you haven't even given it a chance.

So you are telling me, that you want a button that you might use once a year, that changes if the car blinks or not when you press the lock/unlock button? :dunno:

I just do not understand how you can argue that you want buttons that you are used to. You have an E46. The dashboard consists of: the radio system, the climate control, NAV. Those all have the physical buttons that you prefer. But on the new BMWs, they are still there! Look at this dashboard. 
Climate control: Absolutely everything that E46 has is right here... and don't forget you can customize it even more with the I-drive. Main point, it's the same as E46 but even better.
NAV: Pretty much the same. You still need to go through menus to change everything.
Radio: OK here, you might have a valid point. But if you own a car, wouldn't you go through saving your favorite radio stations. Can be done through the steering wheel, and volume is there. Just because of this, you cannot possibly hate on the I-drive so much.

You are right, I am maybe too young to understand your analogy, but that does not mean I do not know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about the I-drive. If you hate the way the dashboard looks with the two humps, then that's fine, it's totally valid. But to claim that the I-drive is plain idiotic because you can't change the volume of the radio without having to take your eyes off the road, is well, idiotic.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Warot said:


> Dave, you claim that you know enough about the I-drive, yet you do not even know that you can change the volume in two seperate places? How can that be? You don't know why people are defending such an "idiotic" system yet you haven't even given it a chance.
> 
> So you are telling me, that you want a button that you might use once a year, that changes if the car blinks or not when you press the lock/unlock button? :dunno:
> 
> ...


I concede the radio volume being on the wheel, but that's not the major issue. It is the fact that you have to scroll the menu to reach the system you want to munipulate. You don't have to do that with button and knobs. There are many other things that bother me with the 745i. The insertion of the key in the fob then to push the start button. The returning of the signal stock to its default position when you click it to initiate the signal, the pushing the seat icon and then using the joy stick to move the seats, the pushing of the gear lever to initial park whereas to engage R, N, and D, it is up and down. These are all very different ideas, but are not intuitive to everyone. I would bet that the operation of the glass cockpit on any commercial jet plane is the same so an airline pilot would not have to relearn how to fly different planes. A car should not be designed to be so complicated in handling simple but important functions. I made the decision not to buy a car with i-Drive. It's my way of telling BMW they are off the mark. The optional i-Drive system in the E90 will distinguished on the dash. Unfortunately, you can only get the NAV with the i-Drive. That is sad.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

Haha, if only I own the car... any BMW's as a matter of fact. The only connection that I have with BMW and the reason that I'm here is because I had an internship with them and I'm planning to do so again this summer. That's why I know pretty much everything there is to know about the I-drive. Maybe if I move high enough in the ranks, I can grant you some wishes. :thumbup: By the way, it really did not take me long to learn how to use the I-drive.

I totally agree with your point though, that if you are new to the car you will definitely be confused. But I don't think that BMW took into consideration that you won't own the car and I guess it makes sense. But what menus do you have to constantly scroll through on a regular basis though. In my previous post, I already showed that the E46 and the new BMW's are not all that different if you look at it. I just still don't understand what function you are talking about.

By the way, I did not mean to be disrespectful in any way or am I here looking for a fight. But you see, BMW has always been my favorite brand and I want nothing more than to work for them after I graduate as a mechanical engineer. So it is kind of natural for me to defend them, but the thing is that I'm not just defending it blindly. When you claim that BMW wants you to think that the I-drive is not required the whole time when driving, I agree with then. Once again, I repeat, all the functions that you could ever want from the E46 is right there at your fingersm which is why I still don't see where the problem is. 

By now, I'm sure everyone views me as an obnoxious defender of the I-drive, and I apologize, but I still do not see too many valid attacks on the system.


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

Dave 330i said:


> I concede the radio volume being on the wheel, but that's not the major issue. It is the fact that you have to scroll the menu to reach the system you want to munipulate.


And if you don't want to use iDrive to do that, you don't have to. The push buttons are still there.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Mathew said:


> And if you don't want to use iDrive to do that, you don't have to. The push buttons are still there.


Where is the radio station displayed? That dash looks scary. Check page 3.

http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/B2FD9097-0C15-4028-A677-AA08DE6DBA4F/0/20057series.pdf


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

At the bottom of the screen.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

"It is the fact that you have to scroll the menu to reach the system you want to munipulate"

And exactly what are you talking about here? 

If you aren't happy with the key, the seat buttons, the gear lever, then that is a totally different story again! That's got nothing to do with the I-drive. How can you support your arguments with this?


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

where it says Radio 1.... I know this is on the 1 series, but it's displayed the same on the 7 i believe.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Watot-- I pretty much agree w/ you. Its the lack of a regular radio that seems incredibly stupid t me. If they would just leave an e46 type radio control panel (w/ its on LCD) on i-drive equipped cars, that would go a long way toward stopping the complaining from buyers, potential buyers and the press. Its not like they'reusing the blank plastic on the e65 radio for anything else. As Dave pointed out, the turn signals, gear shift and seat controls on the 7 are also ridiculous- but they seem to have stopped w/ the seat controls in subsequent models. Also, as you pointed out, the i-drive is not meant to control the primary functions on the car. So, I think it would greatly imporve the dash aesthetcs (and ergonomics) of i-drive equipped cars to make the screen a pop-up touch screen. YOu have to admit- the way BMW setup the i-drive does seem to suggest that they expect you to be using it ALL the time, and while driving. It also bugs me that the screen forces everything else downwards on the dash-- so the climate controls and radio end up being lower than they should. A non-nav euipped e46 has those controls at the right level.

Dave, I disagree that it would be better for all of the functions in the i-drive to be controlled by separate buttons. There's just no way that would be good; there'd be no space, and it would be incredibley hard to find the button you wanted. Like I said above, if they just put an e46-style radio faceplate on i-drive cars it would help the usability a lot.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

robg, I think that the radio should have had its own LCD as well. I don't actually understand why they did not put one there. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that well it's really not all that bad. The main buttons that you would use (back/next, volume) are proper buttons and everything is displayed on the screen (track or radio station). Although I do think that it would have been ebtter with an LCD. 

As for the pop-up, that's where BMW have lost me. They put it on the 1 and x3, but not the others :dunno: . Although personally, I don't really mind the 2 humps. Totally happy with the new line up.


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## RONAN (Nov 4, 2003)

I wonder if the whole discussion is on point. Of course it is possible to learn i-drive; however,why should you have to learn it at all? the additional functionality over equivalent manual systems is effectively zero, and the convenience of access is less. I am fairly technical, but a car it meant to be easy to use for any driver. Imagine lending your car to somebody who had never met i-drive. Instead of giving them the keys you would have to give a tutorial.
Until the interface design and voice recognition can present a very,very short learning curve,with intuitive user features,we have a needlessly complicated technology with no advantages; experienced users presumably get a BMW technician badge to go with their MS-Windows engineering qualification.
I think that launching something that causes people to move to alertnatives to BMW is a bad business decision. Interestingly, others will learn for the mistakes in execution and do it right, thuse validating the BMW strategic direction and far surpassing the execution. The new S class and a host of Japanese cars will address this better.
The problem for BMW is the two strikes at the same time - overly controversial styling and excessive complexity.
The car should be for everyone and not a bunch of software engineers.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

Of course you can learn how to use a computer, but why should you? Writting by hand if fine....
You have a 6 series with the i-drive system. Are you going to tell me that you cannot change everything ont he dashboard? We've been discussing everything the whole time and were getting somewhere and now we are back to square one. I've said that the dashboard has everything that you need. Unless the person borrowing your car is trying to change your settings, then why would they need the I-drive. Unless of course they are using the NAV, but it's exactly the same as the older versions, still need to go through menus. :tsk:


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## RONAN (Nov 4, 2003)

Yes, it can be learned.But for somebody to go to find the CD or change the tone setting on the radio etc is just not intuitive. How about learnig to use the phone or the voice control?
I have tried this with a couple of people who are not morons and the general reaction is not good. 
I have had a fair number of cars in the last 20 years, amd my point is a basic one. This is a consumer product with a bad interface design. Obviously the world is full of people who do not know how to program their VCRs too, and it is generally accepted that this was also due to horribly bad design. I merely beleive that a great design should not be so difficult. The fact that they have a return home button on the i-drive is symbolic of the problem.

If I had a choice I would have deleted a lot of this stuff and had the money put into engineering instead, like Porsche. My SL500, which is not masterpieces of interface design is still a lot easier for a casual user , the my Touareg is still easier.


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

dagoo98 said:


> ... There is no beneficial reason that I can think of for chnaging the seat adjustment system or changing something as simple as the way that the stalk operates.


I share your puzzlement over the new seat adjustment scheme, however, I think you might be more sympathetic to BMW's solution if you were to try to add the lane-change flashing feature to a traditional turn stalk. I found you can to a latching (E36) turn stalk and largely keep its old behavoir - at least I think so: no one has complained over the last year! - but the job is a bit trickier than you might think. BMW may have decided that changing to the new scheme was more reliable than continuing with the old turn stalk.

I hope that BMW was compelled to make the change, however, as I bet I would have considerable trouble driving cars with both old- and new-style turn stalks. I would not want to suffer such a change without good cause or simply for marketing reasons.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

johnf said:


> I share your puzzlement over the new seat adjustment scheme, however, I think you might be more sympathetic to BMW's solution if you were to try to add the lane-change flashing feature to a traditional turn stalk. I found you can to a latching (E36) turn stalk and largely keep its old behavoir - at least I think so: no one has complained over the last year! - but the job is a bit trickier than you might think. BMW may have decided that changing to the new scheme was more reliable than continuing with the old turn stalk.
> 
> I hope that BMW was compelled to make the change, however, as I bet I would have considerable trouble driving cars with both old- and new-style turn stalks. I would not want to suffer such a change without good cause or simply for marketing reasons.


I think Audi has the "lane change flashing feature" w/ traditional latching turn signals. I don't see whats so hard about implementing it-- if the turn signal is turned on, make it flash 3 times.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

RONAN said:


> I wonder if the whole discussion is on point. Of course it is possible to learn i-drive; however,why should you have to learn it at all? the additional functionality over equivalent manual systems is effectively zero, and the convenience of access is less. I am fairly technical, but a car it meant to be easy to use for any driver. Imagine lending your car to somebody who had never met i-drive. Instead of giving them the keys you would have to give a tutorial.
> Until the interface design and voice recognition can present a very,very short learning curve,with intuitive user features,we have a needlessly complicated technology with no advantages; experienced users presumably get a BMW technician badge to go with their MS-Windows engineering qualification.
> I think that launching something that causes people to move to alertnatives to BMW is a bad business decision. Interestingly, others will learn for the mistakes in execution and do it right, thuse validating the BMW strategic direction and far surpassing the execution. The new S class and a host of Japanese cars will address this better.
> The problem for BMW is the two strikes at the same time - overly controversial styling and excessive complexity.
> The car should be for everyone and not a bunch of software engineers.


Like I said above, BMW could so easily solve most of your complaints (and mine) if they simply included a regular radio interface. I guarantee that the complaints would be reduced by a lot-- because people who didn't want to deal w/ i-drive really wouldn't have to. I'm quite baffled as to why they don't do this--especially on the 1 series and e90-- they make version of those cars w/ a regular radio. But, when you order i-drive, suddenly the regular readio disappears, and you just get a CD slot, a volume knob and track up/down buttons. Painfully stupid. Although, I have a feeling that, in the case of the 1 and 3 series, you could probably retrofit the non-i drive radio to an i-drive car. I think BMW avoidded doing this in order to save a few pennies in cost (because there's no other rational reason). So far, the 1 series dash is the closest to getting it right. Its styling is needlessly "funky", but atleast the basic interface is decent.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Some have accused me for not having enough experience to voice my opinion, and me, being technical, that I could master i-Drive in a few minutes, and I would never go back to knobs and buttons again. You can debate and try to convice non believers that i-Drive will set the automobile industry on fire, but there is definitely a lot of resistance against the i-Drive. Is it better because BMW developed and introduced it. I-Drive is not new technology for the driver, it is a different but awkward way of accomplishing the same simple tasks we are so used to. There is no need for it. The old wheel is not broken. Remember the talking Japanese cars that warned to you, "your door is ajar". Well, that away like a lead balloon. I am hoping that the i-Drive will die quietly.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

Not really... you said that the I-drive is an: "awkward way of accomplishing the same simple tasks we are so used to". Once again, I'm asking what task is that? This is the 3rd time I ask you and you can't answer it because the task that you are talking about are not really common at all. Changing the various settings on your car has not been common. When I mean setting, I'm talking about customization, your light settings and all. 

Once again, I'm asking directly, what functions you are talking about. I'm not the one saying you don't have enough experience, but I'm just wondering what facts you are using to support your arguments, that's all.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

Warot said:


> Not really... you said that the I-drive is an: "awkward way of accomplishing the same simple tasks we are so used to". Once again, I'm asking what task is that? This is the 3rd time I ask you and you can't answer it because the task that you are talking about are not really common at all. Changing the various settings on your car has not been common. When I mean setting, I'm talking about customization, your light settings and all.
> 
> Once again, I'm asking directly, what functions you are talking about. I'm not the one saying you don't have enough experience, but I'm just wondering what facts you are using to support your arguments, that's all.


If you check the posts, here they are, at least the quirks I am aware with...
1. Signal stock returns to the default position after signaling, but before turn is complete.
2. Excess steps required to move the motorized seats. Push an icon, use the joy stick.
3. Unnecessary warning of speed greater than 70 mph. I know I am going faster than 70.
4. Placing the car in park requires pushing in gear lever rather than moving the lever up and down. Why not be consistent like other cars?
5. Why the silly push to start? This is not a race car.
6. Where is the radio display? On the video screen? The LED display on my E46 radio is much sharper than the display on the video screen.
7. Why does the key come out of the "case", and why do you need the case. Excess requirements of confusion. Easily get the two separated and lost.

If I had this car to driver longer than the 30-60 minutes or so, I would have driven it over a cliff. Get yourself a MBZ or a Lexus. Look at some of the other horror stories in the other threads. Remember, this is a $70-$80K car. Some people have received newer models because of the problems they have encountered. Stop supporting BMW junk. The 745i is not the ultimate driving machine. It is a modern day Edsel. Until you are impartial and let BMW know what you don't like BMW will continue to shove junk on to you. Personally, I would never buy the current 745i, but I'm hoping BMW will not filter down to their junk to their bread and butter 3 series cars. Unfortunately, BMW already has with the optional i-Drive.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

wow dave... 1 one of your 7 arguments are actually valid. the rest of them have anything to do with the I-drive. So how your points are valid I do not even know. :dunno: 

I'm not defending the 7 Series at all, just the I-drive. The seat adjustment has nothing to do with the I-drive. If you don't like the styling that's fine I can understand. DOn't like the keys, fine. Don't like the gear lever that's fine as well. But you asked me why I would defend such a dumb system, yet you stll cannot even give me a proper argument for attacking it (apart from the LCD for the radio which we already went over)


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Warot said:


> wow dave... 1 one of your 7 arguments are actually valid. the rest of them have anything to do with the I-drive. So how your points are valid I do not even know. :dunno:
> 
> I'm not defending the 7 Series at all, just the I-drive. The seat adjustment has nothing to do with the I-drive. If you don't like the styling that's fine I can understand. DOn't like the keys, fine. Don't like the gear lever that's fine as well. But you asked me why I would defend such a dumb system, yet you stll cannot even give me a proper argument for attacking it (apart from the LCD for the radio which we already went over)


Read the OP. He states iDrive is but one of the reasons why he disliked the car.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

That might be the case. But the discussion changed the focus to the I-drive, which is obviously the main problem.


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Warot said:


> That might be the case. But the discussion changed the focus to the I-drive, which is obviously the main problem.


Perhaps to you, but not to me or, I would guess, Dave. The main problem with the 7er, as even BMW has stated, is that they pushed through a lot of changes to familiar, tried-and-true systems without adequately educating its owners about the changes or why they were made. (The European Union has had a similar problem.)


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

Dave 330i said:


> 3. Unnecessary warning of speed greater than 70 mph. I know I am going faster than 70.


That has nothing to do with the 7 series. E38's have that feature. So do E46's. Maybe even E39's. Anyways, you can turn it on or off, and adjust the speed.

Remember, you only really hear about the people that complain about the car. And they are vocal about it. Why would someone take time out of their day to make posts and write letters for a car that is perfectly normal?


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

Dave 330i said:


> 7. Why does the key come out of the "case", and why do you need the case. Excess requirements of confusion. Easily get the two separated and lost.
> 
> Get yourself a MBZ or a Lexus.


Have you seen a Mercedes key lately? It is exactly the same thing.


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

The key is only removed from the fob for valet parking, making it unnecessary to carry a separate valet key. It is not necessary for the key to be in the fob for system start-up. When valet parking, the key is removed and retained by the owner. The center console, which contains a switch to deactivate the trunk and glove box, is locked with the key, and the fob left with the valet. The fob's design is such to prevent theft, making it virtually impossible to start-up vehicle operations without the encoded fob. The concept is both proficient and simplistic, though, as with anything else, even when simple, understanding is the key to usage, npi.


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## shabbaman (Dec 16, 2002)

Mathew said:


> Have you seen a Mercedes key lately? It is exactly the same thing.


I was thinking about the 7 series key the other day and I think they got it half right and here's what I would do in the next iteration to make it fully right.

Truly, the key in the 745 should be wireless, like some MB's and the Prius however the Prius (and maybe the MB's) has a fundamental problem with its keyless system. It is battery operated and as such leaves itself the possibility for failure due to the battery dying out, neither is there facility nor an interface for the batteries in this system to be charged. Imagine your key failing on a Sunday and you can't go anywhere because you're stranded because the battery in your keyless key is out of juice.

The 'traditional' keys in the other BMW's are also transmitters and they are charged by the car every time they are used. 
So the ideal system here would be a keyless system that also has a slot that you can insert your keyless key into to charge the battery. Since the keyless key is a wireless transmitter it would pass, along with other information, diagnostic data to the 745 computer letting it know what it's battery status is which can be displayed on the screen when you start the car:

"Warning: The power on your key is down to 25%. Please enter it into the slot to charge"


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

shabbaman said:


> The 'traditional' keys in the other BMW's are also transmitters and they are charged by the car every time they are used.
> So the ideal system here would be a keyless system that also has a slot that you can insert your keyless key into to charge the battery. Since the keyless key is a wireless transmitter it would pass, along with other information, diagnostic data to the 745 computer letting it know what it's battery status is which can be displayed on the screen when you start the car:
> 
> "Warning: The power on your key is down to 25%. Please enter it into the slot to charge"


The next generation of 7, in 2006 will be designed almost exactly as you described, with the addition of print-identification for entry and system start-up, as the LS430 now uses. One will serve as backup to the other. eg: In winter, while wearing gloves, you could use the fob. If the charge depleted, or a wireless interference failure occurred in the fob, you could use print identification.


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## shabbaman (Dec 16, 2002)

*additional iDrive observations*

I was coming back from the Jets game the other day and while we were trying to get out of the parking lot I was playing with the iDrive in my friend's brand new 545 and I came away with severval impressions, most of them positive.

iDrive makes certain things possible. The 2 programmable buttons on the streering wheel are a prime example. I believe they can only be programmed intelligently by an iDrive type of interface since there are several functions from several systems that are available for programming.  For example, it's possible to program one button to mute the radio while the other button can be used for the 'launch control' feature (on the new M5).

iDrive makes certain things inherently easier. I can infinately vary the proportion of heat available to my heated seat from the seat bottom to the backrest all by flicking my wrist. I can also easily adjust the amount of volume to increase the sound level by

iDrive is scaleable. As functionality becomes available via software (ie bluetooth) it would seamlessly be incorporated and interfaced via iDrive. A good example of this is bluetooth. On the E39's, E53's and E46's the bluetooth kit comes with a physical pairing button that must be installed into the car. With an iDrive this type of change can be accomplished by adding soft button to the screen (don't know much about bluetooth and the new gen bmw's :dunno: )

The interface can be improved. I liked how pushing the PDC button triggered an action visible on the screen. This would be great if it were extended to other buttons on the car. For example pushing the heated seat button would bring you to the heated seat screen where you can make your adjustments via iDrive.

Overall I see iDrive as a new shoe. It's uncomfortable when you first get it but once it's broken in it feels just right.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Mathew said:


> That has nothing to do with the 7 series. E38's have that feature. So do E46's. Maybe even E39's. Anyways, you can turn it on or off, and adjust the speed.
> 
> Remember, you only really hear about the people that complain about the car. And they are vocal about it. Why would someone take time out of their day to make posts and write letters for a car that is perfectly normal?


I don't mean to be impolite, but you do read these forums, right? People post all the time about how happy they are with their cars, especially in the 3er forum. If you meant writing letters to BMWUSA, and not making posts on Bimmerfest, then ignore this post.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

kd2789mo said:


> The key is only removed from the fob for valet parking, making it unnecessary to carry a separate valet key. It is not necessary for the key to be in the fob for system start-up. When valet parking, the key is removed and retained by the owner. The center console, which contains a switch to deactivate the trunk and glove box, is locked with the key, and the fob left with the valet. The fob's design is such to prevent theft, making it virtually impossible to start-up vehicle operations without the encoded fob. The concept is both proficient and simplistic, though, as with anything else, even when simple, understanding is the key to usage, npi.


Yup, and it's a beautifully intelligent system. I wish they had that for the 3ers. As it is, I don't have a valet key. I have a flimsy piece of plastic that BMW service departments refuse to accept. :thumbdwn:


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

kd2789mo said:


> The next generation of 7, in 2006 will be designed almost exactly as you described, with the addition of print-identification for entry and system start-up, as the LS430 now uses. One will serve as backup to the other. eg: In winter, while wearing gloves, you could use the fob. If the charge depleted, or a wireless interference failure occurred in the fob, you could use print identification.


Next gen of 7? You mean the facelift?


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

shabbaman said:


> I was coming back from the Jets game the other day and while we were trying to get out of the parking lot I was playing with the iDrive in my friend's brand new 545 and I came away with severval impressions, most of them positive.
> 
> iDrive makes certain things possible. The 2 programmable buttons on the streering wheel are a prime example. I believe they can only be programmed intelligently by an iDrive type of interface since there are several functions from several systems that are available for programming. For example, it's possible to program one button to mute the radio while the other button can be used for the 'launch control' feature (on the new M5).
> 
> ...


Another satisfied customer I presume? :thumbup: 
I totally forgot about the 2 buttons that you can customize. As shabbaman said, there is a lot more pros than cons. Still waiting for someone to prove me wrong :eeps:


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

swchang said:


> Next gen of 7? You mean the facelift?


Sorry, was referring to what will be the second generation of idrive for the 7. The second generation of idrive for BMW is currently in the 5 and 1. In '06 BMW will introduce the overall third generation of idrive, first in the 7, which will include extensive wireless/bluetooth and vox functionality.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

kd2789mo said:


> Sorry, was referring to what will be the second generation of idrive for the 7. The second generation of idrive for BMW is currently in the 5 and 1. In '06 BMW will introduce the overall third generation of idrive, first in the 7, which will include extensive wireless/bluetooth and vox functionality.


Ah, nice. Let's hope they've learned from their mistakes, then. BTW, how does the Audi A8 MMI compare? I've heard that was actually implemented pretty well (or at least that car mag reviewers didn't find as many complaints with it...) Doesn't Audi's use more customizable buttons or something?


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## kd2789mo (Jul 8, 2004)

swchang said:


> Ah, nice. Let's hope they've learned from their mistakes, then. BTW, how does the Audi A8 MMI compare? I've heard that was actually implemented pretty well (or at least that car mag reviewers didn't find as many complaints with it...) Doesn't Audi's use more customizable buttons or something?


Interestingly enough, I purchased a new 5000 Quatro in 1987. Drove it 150k+ flawless miles. Possibly one of the best cars I ever owned. Since then, I haven't even sat in another Audi, or kept up on their line. They just lost their aesthetic appeal to me. This coming from the owner of 2 Bengle's. Hypocrisy personified, I suppose...ducking already!


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

Dave, can you be more specific with your issue regarding the turn signal stalk? Are you saying that if you fully depress it (ALL the way down) it eventually stops signaling, even if you don't make a turn? If so, that is not the case. Everytime I use signal, it works just like any other one.


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## shabbaman (Dec 16, 2002)

*Dave: some additional thoughts*

As far as the turn signal stalk I suspect the concept here is to allow you, as the driver to have a more pleasant driving experience. Try to get into the mindset of a German engineer who commutes on the A1 every day at 140 miles an hour. There he is driving along in the right lane and every 15 seconds or so he needs to cut into the left lane to pass slower traffic. So that's how I suspect the concept of the single action turn stalk originated - so at super high speed you only need to perform a single action. You don't need to 'unclick' the turn stalk.

Another pretty cool feature is the HUD. Again, this feature is very useful at high speed when it's critical to not take your eyes off the road.

The Drive selection stalk... :dunno: ...I think that even German engineers smoke crack once in a while.

All in all though, I think the cars are headed in the right direction. After having an opportunity to experience iDrive in my friend's car I would be inclined, given the choice, to get a car with iDrive rather than one without.


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## kumafa124 (Nov 16, 2003)

shabbaman said:


> As far as the turn signal stalk I suspect the concept here is to allow you, as the driver to have a more pleasant driving experience. Try to get into the mindset of a German engineer who commutes on the A1 every day at 140 miles an hour. There he is driving along in the right lane and every 15 seconds or so he needs to cut into the left lane to pass slower traffic. So that's how I suspect the concept of the single action turn stalk originated - so at super high speed you only need to perform a single action. You don't need to 'unclick' the turn stalk.


hmmm ... i think you got a point there. the turn signal is something i'm not pratically fond of and the only other thing i hate some times is the I-drive. when its working, its working excellent :thumbup: and then there are those days, the system just makes you go 

for people that question my experience with the 7, I personally have a 330ci but my mom has the 745Li and I tend to drive it more often than she does and drive her around. the 7 does take alot more time to learn all its features and truly be able to take advantage of it.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

True, but is it more useful than a car without I-drive?


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## shabbaman (Dec 16, 2002)

Warot said:


> True, but is it more useful than a car without I-drive?


You need iDrive to turn the feature on or off  

More seriously though, it's not a bad feature. It's certainly a good example of thinking outside the box. The question is do we want to let this feature out of the box.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

:rofl: :thumbup: 
answer is yes...


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## kumafa124 (Nov 16, 2003)

for me ... growing up using computers literally every day, I think learning and using I-Drive isn't too bad. I personally think its a good start in the right direction for the future. you get used to it after playing with it a few times.

But I can tell you that my parents hate it! 

my dad rarely uses the computer, mainly excel, word, and 'freecell' haha and my mom barely knows how to email. they didn't grow up playing with computers and since my dad run his own companies, he just needs to know the basics, nothing too high-tech. I-drive to them is a hassle and they barely know any of the functions. I had to preset everything and re-teach them all the time.  my grandfather also have a 7 and he wishes he can tear out the I-drive. haha 

To them, they just hate it. They just want a car they can drive.


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

I can definitely see my parents absolutely despising the I-drive. But I guess for the future generations, it'll be much easier. Then again, I don't see why my parents would need the I-drive at all since they would much rather use a regular map than the NAV


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## CocoDolpho (Nov 1, 2006)

*too complicated...?*

Complicated? what's complicated in a E65? when I read all the reviews about the car and the Idrive system before purchasing it, I was a bit skeptical because they made it sound like a nightmare to operate. Well, now that I have one...you guys gotta be kidding me?!!? do you know that it is more complicated to go on the internet, and having to type in an address that does not make sense (http:www.blablabla... as oppose to 123 main street) and then signing up for this site and then login to the forum etc...and all that to write messages and mail as opposed to the goog old days when you grab a pen and paper start writting and just mail it...common guys!!!if you know how to use the net and access this forum, what is so complicated in the E65???? Personally, I adapt to changes very easily and fast but here is the thing: if you get into an E65 and cannot start it and control it after a few minutes, then...yeah...the car is not for you. Why complaining about a car that has not been design for you? I mean you're not complaining about a minivan because it does not go top speed right? it has its own purpose and so does the E65. it's been designed for the people who could handle it...BMW have their own way of doing things, but it's a style...the E65 is a car that is not just a car. Now again, what is so complicated??? can't you adapt? I actually strat thinking that they could have put much more options and setting in the I-drive system...
But hey, that's just me and most other E65 owners I know...


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

CocoDolpho said:


> ... do you know that it is more complicated to go on the internet, and having to type in an address that does not make sense (http:www.blablabla... as oppose to 123 main street) and then signing up for this site and then login to the forum etc...


Yes, but we don't do these things while driving.

Or do we? Needless to say, I am just kidding.


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## CocoDolpho (Nov 1, 2006)

you don't get my point....


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## ajfB004 (Mar 19, 2006)

blasphemy !!!!!!!!!

stone him, stone him


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

CocoDolpho said:


> you don't get my point....


Actually, I believe I do: my comment just wasn't addressing it except very indirectly and not very seriously.


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## CocoDolpho (Nov 1, 2006)

Anyways...It's good to have and drive an E65...for those who tried and can't make it work, just move on...


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## triggerhappy1 (Nov 26, 2006)

man you guys dont think about the positives to this unusual and "idiotic" technology... my friends are like damn man can i drive the beast!?!?! im like sure you got 5 min to start the car otherwise you dont get to drive it...its like a reality show game theyre like ahhhh wtf do i do rushing to figure out how to get this thing on... lets just say im the only one that drives my car... but yeah honestly when i first got in my car i was like k **** this **** give me a 5 series but after like a week everything became so natural to me i could control everything in the car flawlessly.


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## sc 540i (Apr 25, 2006)

I was pretty impressed by the 745, great car, features take some getting use to, but what doesn't? I drove it for a day and I had everything down pat within maybe an hour. I think everything they incorporated is just a reminder to the owner as to why they spent so much on the car. When I got back into my e39 I definately missed all the features. The 745 is without a doubt 1,000 times nicer than my plain jane 528i, but I still definately love it :rofl:


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## Kayani_1 (Dec 8, 2005)

Well said:thumbup:



kd2789mo said:


> With all due respect:
> If you walked into my home theatre, and attempted to record a DVD, while watching another, you wouldn't even know how to start my system. I can do it, by touch, in the dark.
> Perhaps if you owned and operated a 745 on a regular basis, your post would be respectable. No one could possibly recognize the incredible driver-oriented technology BMW has designed into the 745 on a mere 30 minute drive.
> BTW, the turn signal stalk is operating exactly as it was designed. Though, like with most anything else, if you do not understand how it's designed, you cannot understand why.


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

sc 540i said:


> I was pretty impressed by the 745, great car, features take some getting use to, but what doesn't? I drove it for a day and I had everything down pat within maybe an hour. I think everything they incorporated is just a reminder to the owner as to why they spent so much on the car. When I got back into my e39 I definately missed all the features. The 745 is without a doubt 1,000 times nicer than my plain jane 528i, but I still definately love it :rofl:




Like someone said earlier its all about getting used to technology and it takes a certain amount of iterations within any new technology before the mainstream population can find it user-friendly

Take for instance when PC desktops came out years ago everyone was using Dos and found that screen easy to use wid command prompts. However as windows came ppl started getting effy about this new software but eventually given time things started to make sense and society started merging there systems to this new software...and then better versions kept on coming later on.

Another example.....is cellphones about 10 years ago were not common at all they were no where close to being portable and accessible (price $$$) as they are today! but as time elapsed ppl started to interpret this technology and implemented it in there daily lives....thus now having a cellphone is considered a necessity for the mos part :angel:

NOW FOR THE CAR FOLKS:

The I-Drive is the new technology that BMW introduced in its 7 series bck in 2002.

If you know anything about the 7 series its that its main competition is with the following models:

Audi A-8 (MY 2007)

Merc S Class (MY 2007)

VW Phaeton (MY 2007)

Lexus LS (MY 2007)

etc.

There are 3 out of the 4 above mentioned models that mirrored the I-Drive concept in there vehicles!

and my guess is as good as yours: all of the above except lexus! 
(which is why lexus is in a league of its own but thas a whole different discussion altogether  )

Now, one may argue that these I-drive like systems in these other models mentioned are simpler to use and easier to learn blah ! blah !

The bottom line is that like i said earlier in my 2 examples technology goes through many iterations or phases before its perfected and made user-friendly.

So all you BMW owners out there doesnt matter if you own an E65/66....you should be proud of the fact that BMW is innovative and one step ahead of the game.....and is handsdown the PIONEER OF THE I-DRIVE CONCEPT! :thumbup:


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

bimmer7 said:


> The bottom line is that like i said earlier in my 2 examples technology goes through many iterations or phases before its perfected and made user-friendly.


Microsoft Windows has been perfected and made user friendly? I think you should have chosen some other example.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

bimmer7 said:


> Like someone said earlier its all about getting used to technology and it takes a certain amount of iterations within any new technology before the mainstream population can find it user-friendly
> 
> Take for instance when PC desktops came out years ago everyone was using Dos and found that screen easy to use wid command prompts. However as windows came ppl started getting effy about this new software but eventually given time things started to make sense and society started merging there systems to this new software...and then better versions kept on coming later on.
> 
> ...


I don't think the Phaeton competes with anything anymore...


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## Guilden_NL (Dec 9, 2006)

I work in tech (speech recognition), so not much of the E65/66 turned me off completely. However, user interface is a BMW weakness and all of the competition mentioned above took iDrive and improved the interface to be more logical for drivers.

Sit a high tech person in a Lexus or Audi or Merc for the first time and have them set up a destination in the NAV with directions ready to roll. Then do the same with a BMW and that very tech familiar person is going to look damned stupid in the Bimmer. BMW's interfaces fly in the face of logical usage. _Sorry for the pun...
_
BMW is an automotive leader in technology but their engineers fail to take a small leap with many opportunities. I had a discussion with one on a recent flight. I mentioned to him that I would like a Phatnoise-like system with 100GB of storage that would communicate with my home network via WiFi so my play lists would transfer to the car along with new music. The play list could be speech activated (best as I am working on this with a Zune  ) or driven from the steering wheel with the NAV screen as the GUI. The engineer replied "but we introduced an interface for iPods!"  My reply "I don't use iPod and never will. I do have a Zune, but the point is that farting around with an external device while driving is highly unsafe!" The engineer said "so you want to ban cell phone usage in cars?" "Yep I replied. I'd like a permit to shoot every hand held phone yakking bastard that is driving." Obviously he would be first on my list. His bright white iPhone (Q1 '07 release) would make a perfect target. :bang:


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

johnf said:


> Microsoft Windows has been perfected and made user friendly? I think you should have chosen some other example.


What I meant to say was that 90% of the computer users around the world in schools, institutions, and offices have been using windows and find it easier to use then lets say some Unix or Linux O/S. Also, what i wanted to say was that few years ago the Windows on desktop computers was not as mainstream as it is today! meaning that it has gone through phases of corrections in terms of bugs and what not...but no O/S was ever bug-free but as users demand more features the O/S get even more complicated!


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## bimmer7 (Jun 14, 2005)

swchang said:


> I don't think the Phaeton competes with anything anymore...


:angel: True :bigpimp:


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