# Rizzo method with european delivery



## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

Bart001 said:


> I'll echo what Beewang said, too, and give you my 2 cents.
> 
> First, ED not like every other deal. There is more paperwork involved for the dealer. The combination of extra paperwork and people like you and me trying to get a deal done for very little over invoice (ie, comparitively LOW profit for the dealership) means that the Rizzo approach is less likely to be to your benefit for an ED. Given the low profit you are asking for, you really need to convice the dealership that it's worth it to THEM to "play ball" with you at all. (Many dealerships don't want to do ED at all, and will only do it for ED msrp because of that. Many certainly will not "bid" for the opportunity to do an ED!) If you start out the communication process in a 'difficult' way, dealerships are much more likely to decline all together. IMHO, the Rizzo fax blast is the wrong way to get an ED done.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the 2 cents. I don't claim to be an expert of ED -- I did not even consider it until two weeks ago. Most of what I know came from the Wiki that says


> Cars sold through European Delivery do not come out of the dealer's allocation (except for M cars, and sometimes newly introduced models where supply is limited, e.g. coupes and convertibles in 2007). As a result, the dealer is selling an extra car, rather than one of his allocated cars that he could sell to someone else at MSRP, as is the case with US delivery. Not all dealers realize that ED cars are basically bonus sales. They may refuse to negotiate off of the ED MSRP price, or explain that there are extra costs associated with ED for the dealer. Generally speaking, if your dealer says this, you should look for another dealer.


So you are saying this is not entirely how it is? Point well taken!

Thanks

K


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

beewang said:


> I don't have an MBA, but I am a bean counter and therefore a "numbers" guy ... so they say...
> 
> Without any knowledge of reading this board, but given the info that you provided I'd take your statement and chop the $1,500 variance in half and call it the "mean". So the mean is $750 + the 1000 which would give me $1750. That would be the "mean"...
> 
> ...


Yeah, well -- the sample size is to small to be statistically accurate. 
It's the *median *, btw :thumbup:


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

kruzo said:


> Oh giimme a break!


Wha??!! :dunno:

I don't know you... and I don't know what are the cars you had...but I know this...*If you paid near or under invoice... you didn't buy a Porsche, MBZ or BMW* (aka high-end German cars) .... The reason I know this (and you will soon find out) is because pricing structure... fair enough??!!:eeps:


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

beewang said:


> Wha??!! :dunno:
> 
> I don't know you... and I don't know what are the cars you had...but I know this...*If you paid near or under invoice... you didn't buy a Porsche, MBZ or BMW* (aka high-end German cars) .... The reason I know this (and you will soon find out) is because pricing structure... fair enough??!!:eeps:


Fair enough. I did pay MSRP for the other one. My point was -- I am not the one who is going for the price only.

I am all ears about the pricing structure though, if you're willing to share


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## Northcar (Sep 21, 2005)

*Another Story RE: Negotiation*

I attended a seminar on the subject of negotiation. The instructor had been sent by the U.S. Government to Afgahnistan some years ago. While there he shopped in the local markets. He advised of an experience he had trying to buy some produce. He patiently waited for the merchant to complete a sale with a lady for the same item he wanted to buy. They haggled at length and finally came to a price. The instructor then simply offered the merchant the same price that had been agreed upon by the merchant with the prior customer. The merchant responded that was impossible. He went on to elaborate how the lady had small children and he had done a great favor to her. The instructor then began negotiating with the merchant. After a series of protracted offers and counter-offers they finally arrived at a price. (You guessed it, the price was the same identical one that the merchant had agreed to with the prior customer.) The lesson to us was that sometimes the process of negotiation is essential to the deal regardless.


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## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

Northcar said:


> The lesson to us was that sometimes the process of negotiation is essential to the deal regardless.


:stupid:, 1000%.

What's funny about this is that it's not always about the money, but pride and the sense of triumph arising from negotiation. I guess that's why some folks compromise for the win-win deal rather than the lose-win or win-lose deal.


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## Bill-SD (Feb 18, 2002)

This is why I used the Rizzo method. I've bought a bunch of cars in my lifetime (not that I'm old or anything  ), and this was the easiest most stressfree transaction I've ever done.


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## Skiddy (Apr 12, 2007)

Bill-SD said:


> This is why I used the Rizzo method. I've bought a bunch of cars in my lifetime (not that I'm old or anything  ), and this was the easiest most stressfree transaction I've ever done.


I'm with Bill. I used this method also via email. Didn't choose the first one to respond but the first CA who responded honestly and didn't try to dick around... and believe me, there were quite a few of those. Also, like Bill, my email was polite, straight forward, and honest in terms of what I expected. My time is also money so it saved me in that respect.


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## beatmstrj (Jan 10, 2008)

Personally I used the Rizzo method to do my ED and im glad I did cause it was the easiest haggling I've ever done. Granted living in SoCal gives me a lot more options for dealerships I can work with, but after I figured out exactly what I wanted I put together my quote at $800 over invoice (for a 335i sedan). I had previously called all of the dealerships in my surrounding area and asked the operator for the fleet managers name and fax number. Once I got my list together and my quote was finished I sent it off to the first 10 dealers that were the closest and I got one acceptance response within 15 minutes. Several others followed and eventually 5 out of the 10 agreed to my price. I called the fleet managers at that point and questioned their knowledge about the ED program and when I was comfortable with the dealer I went in and did the paperwork. My ED is scheduled for May 19th and its been smooth as silk the whole time.


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

beatmstrj said:


> Personally I used the Rizzo method to do my ED and im glad I did cause it was the easiest haggling I've ever done. Granted living in SoCal gives me a lot more options for dealerships I can work with, but after I figured out exactly what I wanted I put together my quote at $800 over invoice (for a 335i sedan). I had previously called all of the dealerships in my surrounding area and asked the operator for the fleet managers name and fax number. Once I got my list together and my quote was finished I sent it off to the first 10 dealers that were the closest and I got one acceptance response within 15 minutes. Several others followed and eventually 5 out of the 10 agreed to my price. I called the fleet managers at that point and questioned their knowledge about the ED program and when I was comfortable with the dealer I went in and did the paperwork. My ED is scheduled for May 19th and its been smooth as silk the whole time.


Thanks beatmstrj for sharing your experience. I think guys have a fair point thought -- both sides want to be treated with dignity.

Would you mind sharing the text of the letters you've used to contact the fleet managers?
Also, do you think it makes more sense to ask for Fleet manager vs the ED specialist?

Thanks,

kruzor at gmail dot com


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## Bart001 (Apr 9, 2005)

Skiddy said:


> I'm with Bill. I used this method also via email. Didn't choose the first one to respond but the first CA who responded honestly and didn't try to dick around... and believe me, there were quite a few of those. Also, like Bill, my email was polite, straight forward, and honest in terms of what I expected. My time is also money so it saved me in that respect.


See this is really a variation on the Rizzo method. You're using the technique, but only to identify CA's that you *FEEL GOOD* working with. (You may well have saved $400 with one of those CA's who at first "dicked around" with you, but you never got that far to find out  ). I suppose that if you don't already have a relationship with a dealership or CA, then that is one way to identify the 'good guys' with whom you'll feel good spending your money. Whether there is a good correlation between a dealership's response to a Rizzo-type fax blast and overall customer satisfaction remains an unknown, but hey it's relevant anyway.

At its core, the Rizzo Method is an objective analysis. But as your post proves, most humans at some point make subjective analyses. We all like to "feel good about the deal" as others have noted already in this thread.


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## Bart001 (Apr 9, 2005)

kruzo said:


> Fair enough. I did pay MSRP for the other one. My point was -- I am not the one who is going for the price only.
> 
> I am all ears about the pricing structure though, if you're willing to share


It's very easy to figure out pricing structure, just by reading this ED forum. A "good deal" is $1xxx over ED invoice. That's been said here time and time again, and is readily available from board sponsors and from other (but certainly not all) dealerships.

I think that what you're really researching is how to save the last few hundred dollars. If that makes you feel good, proceed!


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## Skiddy (Apr 12, 2007)

Bart001 said:


> See this is really a variation on the Rizzo method. You're using the technique, but only to identify CA's that you *FEEL GOOD* working with. (You may well have saved $400 with one of those CA's who at first "dicked around" with you, but you never got that far to find out  ). I suppose that if you don't already have a relationship with a dealership or CA, then that is one way to identify the 'good guys' with whom you'll feel good spending your money. Whether there is a good correlation between a dealership's response to a Rizzo-type fax blast and overall customer satisfaction remains an unknown, but hey it's relevant anyway.
> 
> At its core, the Rizzo Method is an objective analysis. But as your post proves, most humans at some point make subjective analyses. We all like to "feel good about the deal" as others have noted already in this thread.


Actually, it was more about COMMON SENSE than feeling good about it. It was not a technique to find out who I felt good about, but to conduct a business transaction. Those other CA's responded directly with their prices and "justification" for what their counter offer was. Let's just say that one of CA's had the audacity to mark up the car by $10K OVER MSRP. Common sense said "walk away". At the core, I had my price, and I didn't budge on it but I did in the end choose a CA who I thought was trustworthy so from that perspective, a certain level of subjectivity came in to play.


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

Bart001 said:


> It's very easy to figure out pricing structure, just by reading this ED forum. A "good deal" is $1xxx over ED invoice. That's been said here time and time again, and is readily available from board sponsors and from other (but certainly not all) dealerships.
> 
> I think that what you're really researching is how to save the last few hundred dollars. If that makes you feel good, proceed!


That is most certainly not what I am trying to do since, if anything, my time is worth more then a couple hundred bucks.

I am with Skiddy here -- I want an objective screen method to identify people who are willing to play ball, and then go from there. An MSRP response would be a non starter, and that should eliminate probably 40% of the responders that I would otherwise have to talk to.


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## furui (Sep 30, 2007)

I used the "well, someone from [other dealership] offered to do the deal for [lesser value]" method for ED. Worked quite well.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

kruzo said:


> ...That is most certainly not what I am trying to do since, if anything, my time is worth more then a couple hundred bucks.....


Hello!! Its me again.. Mr. "Devil's Advocate"  here

Likewise to your statement... you realize that most CA is saying the exact same thing... as a $1XXX over invoice deal essentially translate to the Minimum commission floor of a couple hundered dollars and would just let it pass.. as their time is worth more...

Just want to point out the obvious... 

Please continue...


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## Bart001 (Apr 9, 2005)

beewang said:


> Hello!! Its me again.. Mr. "Devil's Advocate"  here
> 
> Likewise to your statement... you realize that most CA is saying the exact same thing... as a $1XXX over invoice deal essentially translate to the Minimum commission floor of a couple hundered dollars and would just let it pass.. as their time is worth more...
> 
> ...


That is why, with my CA, I'm very respectful of his time.

I *know* that he's making essentially NOTHING (ie, a couple hundred dollars) off of my ED deal. I am happy to take a 'back seat' to his dealings with other customers who are paying more; I deal with him during the weekdays when the sales floor is pretty empty of customers, etc. I want him to be there 2 years from now so I can do another deal with him where he makes essentially nothing off of me :thumbup:


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

beewang said:


> Hello!! Its me again.. Mr. "Devil's Advocate"  here
> 
> Likewise to your statement... you realize that most CA is saying the exact same thing... as a $1XXX over invoice deal essentially translate to the Minimum commission floor of a couple hundered dollars and would just let it pass.. as their time is worth more...
> 
> ...


I am OK with that though. I am all for supporting the young and hungry 

On a more serious note though, you are an economics major, right? 

From the dealership perspective, they should take a deal whenever the price exceeds their variable cost plus the opportunity cost. Since the dealers are mostly on commission, and, as someone pointed out above, are not terribly busy during the day when I am emailing with them, the variable cost of the sale to the dealership is the wholesale price minus any hold back plus CA comission. So, as economics theory goes, the dealers *should* take the deal at little over cost, provided it does not go against his allocation quota (if he is quota limited), which is his opportunity cost.

Now, from the employee/CA stand point things are a bit different. In fact, if you worked as a car sales man in the past, they are VERY different  My wife, who worked as a waitress in college, will not leave 0 tip to anyone, no matter how terrible the service. So, I don't send her to negotiate banquet deals, if you know what I mean. 

But even from the employee/CA stand point, I think a couple of hundred bucks for essentially doing the paper work (there is no "selling" involved with me, because I am already buying, and the price is fixed in Rizzo case) is not bad, as long as there is no opportunity cost for him/her.
Now, if the guy is super busy and can sell another car instead of doing my paper work -- hey, power to him, I am not his customer.

If the guy figured a way to do this paper work during his dead time, and wants a couple extra hundred bucks and a chance outsell others on his monthly number -- he is my guy.
I realize you disagree with this on the emotional level, but is there anything of substance that you find wrong with this logic?


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

Bart001 said:


> That is why, with my CA, I'm very respectful of his time.
> 
> I *know* that he's making essentially NOTHING (ie, a couple hundred dollars) off of my ED deal. I am happy to take a 'back seat' to his dealings with other customers who are paying more; I deal with him during the weekdays when the sales floor is pretty empty of customers, etc. I want him to be there 2 years from now so I can do another deal with him where he makes essentially nothing off of me :thumbup:


I like your avatar and your taste in cars. The rest of your philosophy I disagree with


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## Bart001 (Apr 9, 2005)

kruzo said:


> I like your avatar and your taste in cars. The rest of your philosophy I disagree with


Which is why -- nothing personal -- I'll not refer you to my CA. He'll thank me 

Good luck at Herb Chambers!


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## Bart001 (Apr 9, 2005)

Phillipe K -- I don't work in sales, but I do heartily subscribe to the 'you catch more flies with honey' approach to life AND business. 

I *do* get great service from my dealership, both in service and from the CA and the sales manager. I *do* refer customers to my CA, and he and the sales manager know I'll continue to do that so long as I'm happy. There are quite a few BMW's in the parking lot at my company, and it's a highly competitive environment here in the Boston area for BMW sales.

I understand the CA's job, and understand that of course at busy times he has to juggle customers. By dealing with him on off-hours, it does us both a favor; I get better/more attention when he's not juggling, and it frees him up at busy times hopefully to make another sale. The attitude of 'I'm a paying customer (even if it's a low-profit deal) and I'll demand the red carpet treatment 24/7/365' just doesn't work for me. Plus, I enjoy the perks that being a 'good customer' gets me.


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## richifever (Mar 8, 2007)

Wow, this is becoming a heated debate! Just wanted to drop my 2 cents.

I just got back from my dealership yesterday to pay my down payment and pick up my 6FL ipod cabLe  before my trip. I had a quick discussion with my CA about how I heard about him from these forums and how this has been the most painless purchase for me so far.

He went on to say how he appreciates my business and his willingness to work with me. He doesn't, however, appreciate the phishing emails/faxes of people who are out to grab the lowest price no matter what. If you email him a price and he counter offers, he expects you to counter offer again so both of you can be happy. I'm not sure if you get my point, but think this is the same direction of this discussion. Sorry if it doesn't have anything to do with it.


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## beatmstrj (Jan 10, 2008)

I beleive that its the duty and privledge of the consumer to find the best deal on anything he buys regardless of how he does it. The job of the salesman is to SELL me something. Quoting me the sticker price is not SELLING. If he is a good salesman he is going to make me want the car and want to deal with him and by doing that I will be more inclined to pay a higher price. We have all been SOLD something in our lifetimes and theres even a good chance it was something you didnt need or want. But you bought it anyway and you probably paid too much. If I cant find the best deal as a consumer then im not doing MY job and that means I probably have too much money to care or lack the knowledge required to get a good deal.


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## Bart001 (Apr 9, 2005)

beatmstrj said:


> I beleive that its the duty and privledge of the consumer to find the best deal on anything he buys regardless of how he does it.


And it's the privilege and duty of anyone selling a product or service to pick and chose their clients and customers, especially when the "regardless of how he does it" includes being unreasonably demanding, condescending, insulting, abusive and/or a general [email protected]

As a professional in a service industry, I have most certainly turned down potential customers who came to me with checkbook in hand ready to pay for my services. We all know that sometimes it's 'just not worth it.' As a customer of a very professional local CA and dealership, I have turned down requests for referrals to him (and of course sent him referrals). When I recount the stories, he thanks me. He, too, does not want to entertain such brand of consumers.


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

Bart001 said:


> And it's the privilege and duty of anyone selling a product or service to pick and chose their clients and customers, especially when the "regardless of how he does it" includes being unreasonably demanding, condescending, insulting, abusive and/or a general [email protected]


It's a privilege of the business owner and her managers, not the sales guy's. For all you know, I may *want* to run a low margin high volume dealership that caters to abusive customers. We are a capitalist society, you see.

Now, let me ask you a question: how does sending a fax soliciting the best price the dealer is willing to offer for the specified product constitute being "unreasonably demanding, condescending, insulting, abusive and/or a general [email protected]" Are you just making stuff up?


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

Dude.... just move on... You've stated your position, he has stated his position. 

I would think you'd be done w/ your purchase by now... it has been over 3 days now .....


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

beewang said:


> Dude.... just move on... You've stated your position, he has stated his position.
> 
> I would think you'd be done w/ your purchase by now... it has been over 3 days now .....


Let's make a deal: you don't tell me what to do, I don't tell you where to go:thumbup:


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

kruzo said:


> Let's make a deal: you don't tell me what to do, I don't tell you where to go:thumbup:


Nope... No deal...

In case you haven't noticed... I can tell you what to do...

because you are playing in my sandbox..


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## kruzo (Apr 7, 2008)

beewang said:


> In case you haven't noticed... I can tell you what to do...


Whatever gets you off


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

OK I don't know what happened to this thread. But, after sifting through the some of the nonsense, there's some useful information here for future EDers such as myself 

Looks like a variation of the Rizzo method could work for ED, and as long as there's some mutual respect, both sides can win, right?


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## InsaneSkippy (Aug 28, 2007)

1985mb said:


> Looks like a variation of the Rizzo method could work for ED, and as long as there's some mutual respect, both sides can win, right?


Exactly, just be reasonable about your offer and you should have no problem. I sent out maybe 10-12 faxes before I got a bite.


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## Bill-SD (Feb 18, 2002)

1985mb said:


> OK I don't know what happened to this thread. But, after sifting through the some of the nonsense, there's some useful information here for future EDers such as myself
> 
> Looks like a variation of the Rizzo method could work for ED, and as long as there's some mutual respect, both sides can win, right?


I'm not sure either :dunno: But you nailed it! Mutual respect is the key, Rizzo or not.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

I'm amazed at how much info BF has on Euro delivery. So looking fwd to it :thumbup:


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## Bill-SD (Feb 18, 2002)

1985mb said:


> I'm amazed at how much info BF has on Euro delivery. So looking fwd to it :thumbup:


It's a great resource :thumbup: It helped me out a lot with my ED!


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## jrubens (Aug 14, 2002)

I used the Rizzo method a few years ago and it was very easy. The dealers that were interested in my business contacted me, while ones that were not interested didn't. I had a response from a dealer recommended on the board the first thing the next morning. I ended up buying from a nearby dealer that was very interested in my business, but would have bought from the first responder otherwise.

I haven't been in the market for a while, so I don't know where the invoice documents can be found anymore, but if you have the information, why not use it--at least on your local dealer so you can bring the car in for service. If your local dealer isn't interested, you might as well go with the best deal/service you can get.


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## IrvRobinson (May 10, 2006)

I prefer to speak live,I get requests for quotes daily through email.I always ask for a phone number where I can call people back.Just sending numbers back and forth seems to be a very poor approach to selling the dream.....send me a phone number or call me anytime.....


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

beewang said:


> Okay... let me tell you a lil' story... this is an actual event:
> 
> Back when I was in college, I worked in Auto Retail Sales. One day I had a specific case... a customer came-in and I did my job on selling the product and did an exceptional job on it. Customer offered me FULL-MSRP for the car and you'd think its a done deal right??!!
> 
> ...


Resurrecting a somewhat old thread I realize. I came across it on a search.

Bee, maybe the point of your story is that your sales manager could read your customer better than you could. While what he said to you may be true for some people, it certainly isn't true for all. You have to be able to read people really well to try something like that.

If I had been that customer my response when you returned with the sales manager's offer would have been that I'd have first asked you if you were crazy and the deal would have been dead. I'd have been completely insulted. I'd have gotten up and left and you'd never have seen me again. That tactic would have killed the deal and there would be no way for you to do anything to salvage it. In addition every person I ever talked with about my car buying experience would include a major slam on your dealership and a recommendation to avoid them at all costs.


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

tturedraider said:


> Resurrecting a somewhat old thread I realize.
> 
> If I had been that customer my response when you returned with the sales manager's offer would have been that I'd have first asked you if you were crazy and the deal would have been dead. I'd have been completely insulted.


I find some sales tactics very frustrating. In my younger days, I have walked away from several car dealers after numerous hours of negotiation. One particular sales associate was incapable of writing down numbers that would add up (math is hard.) After an hour negotiating with this sales associate my wife wasn't understanding why I was being a PITA, and pointed to the picture of his kids on his desk and said just sign the papers, it looks close enough. An hour later, during his umpteenth trip to the manager she again pointed to the picture of his kids, and said I don't care if those kids starve, let's get out of here...and we did. Nowadays, I make my conditions and expectations very clear. I only give the sales associate one shot at giving me a price - deal or no deal. I'm not demanding a $1XXX deal on a hot model, just a fair deal based upon current market conditions for that vehicle. Yes, I do my research. I first discovered this technique a number of years ago, when a salesman approached me and my wife on a lot and asked if anyone was selling us a truck today. On a lark, I replied "yes you are, that is if you are selling me this truck for $16,195." (This was a small amount below a competitor's advertised price.) His jaw dropped, he looked at me to crack a smile. He looked at my my wife, who was shocked by my statement. He looked back at me, still dead pan. He looked at the truck. He looked back at me. Walked over to the sticker, and looked back at me, and said "should I start writing up the paperwork?" I drove out of there in my new truck in about half an hour. Last year while car shopping, I left a number of confused sales associates in my wake after I thanked them for their time and left. I guess it takes me longer than a test drive to get emotionally attached to a car.

Now a marginally related story not involving cars, so don't bother reading this unless you are really bored.

I went into a Best Buy a number of years ago, found a sale associate and said "I would like to buy this computer and that monitor." He wrote down the numbers, and then started his sales pitch on an extended warranty. I respectfully declined, and restated my desire to buy this computer and that monitor. After the third iteration, the sales associate went and got his manager who offered me a shorter term extended warranty. I again made my simple request to purchase this computer and that monitor. The manager then proceeded to tell me how unreliable computers were and I would need to ship it to Korea to have it repaired, and there would be 30,000 computers in the line in front of mine, so I really needed the extended warranty with which they could fix any problem the next day. I walked out of the store and have not purchased anything from Best Buy in last 8 or so years.


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