# M2--saw this over e46fanatics



## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Rooster, you should quit while you're ahead.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2004)

atyclb said:


> according to you it's not.
> 
> "Real M3's have 4 doors"
> 
> --TD


 If I ever said that, I think even you have to admit it was clearly tongue in cheek.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2004)

And the only V configuration engines BMW has ever built are V8s and V12s. The 4s and 6s are all inline. V6s inherently suck. They are the only mainstream engine configuration that is not inherently balanced.

And AFAIK no one has ever built a V4.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> And the only V configuration engines BMW has ever built are V8s and V12s. The 4s and 6s are all inline. V6s inherently suck. They are the only mainstream engine configuration that is not inherently balanced.
> 
> And AFAIK no one has ever built a V4.


Saab did in the SOnnett and Saab 96 (and 95?). Ford did too. In fact, I think the Saab v-4 was actually based on a Ford design (but don't rememebr clearly). There are probably a few other isolated cases of this engine config that i'm forgetting or not aware.

Agree that V6s suck-- although there are a few decent V6s (for exmaple, Alfa Romeo's and the VW VR6). Most V6s use a 90 degree bank between the Vs so that they can save money by usi a shortened v8 block-- which makes them much less balanced. A 60 degree V (such as Alfa's) is ideal for V6 and makes it run smoother without the aid of balance shafts.


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## daihard (Feb 15, 2004)

Riuster said:


> Germany doesnt count....they make the bloody damn car....Germans would just buy German cars, cause its their bread and butter, If i was German and had a choice, I would help the FATHERLAND, I would buy German, and if I was in Japan and Japanese I would buy a Lexus (Toyota). Americans are a different category.....we buy everything!


I wonder why I see so many European cars whenever I am in Japan... 

Germany does count, because BMW has to compete with other domestic marques such as Audi and Mercedes.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Inline fours are also not naturally balanced. But the rev sweetly and make for a light car. I don't care, four or six, bring us the M2!!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2004)

Dawg90 said:


> Inline fours are also not naturally balanced. But the rev sweetly and make for a light car. I don't care, four or six, bring us the M2!!


 Why aren't they? Two up, two down. Balanced.


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## daihard (Feb 15, 2004)

Dawg90 said:


> I don't care, four or six, bring us the M2!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

TD said:


> Why aren't they? Two up, two down. Balanced.


Inline fours have second-order vibrations which cannot be quelled with the use of crankshaft counterweights - unlike a traditional cross-plane crank V8. External balance shafts have to be used instead. On the web I found a reference to a book which describes the basics: "Design and Tuning of Competition Engines", byPhilip Smith. It's a Bentley publication I think.

The problem with balance shafts is that they suck power. Alfa Romeo uses them to good effect by limiting their effectiveness (which manifests itself as enthusiastic "fizz", according to aficionados ). BMW's current fours use bigger balance shafts which provide very smooth, quiet running, quite unlike its effervescent fours of the past.

IMHO it is unlikely that BMW would make an M2 with a four-pot, nide idea though it is; all of its rivals would have lazy, big-capacity V6s of more than 3 litres, and for BMW to produce a small "four" capable of high power and very high revs it would have to drop the balance shafts. That would negatively impact the refinement - very few BMW buyers are prepared to put up with lower engine refinement these days. The E30 M3 era is long gone.

Interestingly the 2.0 litre diesel four in the 120d makes more power per litre than any BMW engine, except the M3. That's got balance shafts too - but then it only revs to 4,500 rpm...


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## ride365 (Dec 19, 2001)

daihard said:


> Honda has never made V-4 engines.


since we're bickering about technicalities, i'll throw in my contribution...

honda's race heritage and history is firmly grounded in V-fours... motorcycles, that is.


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## daihard (Feb 15, 2004)

ride365 said:


> since we're bickering about technicalities, i'll throw in my contribution...
> 
> honda's race heritage and history is firmly grounded in V-fours... motorcycles, that is.


Aaaaahhhh, I knew it!


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

Dawg90 said:


> Rooster, you should quit while you're ahead.


Geez..ok....ooohhkay..dont bust my balls...man....ok...to take this slightly off the M2, I did some research on BMW groups Market share..from their 2003 annual report.

http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/?/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/homepage/0_home.shtml
USA gets the most with 25.1 percent, 277,037 units
Germany 23.2, with 255,821 units
UK with 12.2

ETC ETC

So who ever said..the UK or Germany, well its not true. As for the UK, alot of New BMWs..., well the annual report doesnt say it, look at the Annual report 2003, it speaks for itself on page 15.

For the guy in London, honeslty..when Im in London.its not like I see many BMWs and if you do see many BMWs, its probably the ones that get your attention, and perhaps Germany probably sends off the used ones off to the UK, so you may see plenty of USED BMWs over there or you live in a very wealthy area.

the USA ranks number one in market share as one country. Period!

www.bmwgroup.com, interesting site.

ok..sorry to throw this thread offcourse..back to M2


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

daihard said:


> I wonder why I see so many European cars whenever I am in Japan...
> 
> Germany does count, because BMW has to compete with other domestic marques such as Audi and Mercedes.


I didnt see that many BMWs in Japan, (very recent), niether that many euro cars, and very little amount of American cars....

Japan has 4.4% of the market share from 2003 BMW sales....with that amout, once in a blue moon after you see, hondas, toyotas, nissans, daihatzus, isuzus..you will come upon ONE 3 series..strolling along...completely "lost in transistion"


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## daihard (Feb 15, 2004)

Riuster said:


> I didnt see that many BMWs in Japan, (very recent), niether that many euro cars, and very little amount of American cars....
> 
> Japan has 4.4% of the market share from 2003 BMW sales....with that amout, once in a blue moon after you see, hondas, toyotas, nissans, daihatzus, isuzus..you will come upon ONE 3 series..strolling along...completely "lost in transistion"


I said "European" cars, not just BMWs (or even German cars). If you would've been to big cities like Tokyo, Osaka and Kobe, you'd have known what I meant. My parents live in Kobe. At least 5 or 6 of their neighbours have a Mercedes or a BMW. The couple next door to them has a 5-Series and a 320i. 

My point is that the Japanese usually don't have the "buy domestic" mentality that you mentioned. They buy Honda's and Toyota's because they are reliable and take you from point A to point B smoothly. It is true that the market share of import cars in Japan is quite low; much lower than in most other industrial nations. That's not because of their nationalism -- I can guarantee you that.


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

daihard said:


> I said "European" cars, not just BMWs (or even German cars). If you would've been to big cities like Tokyo, Osaka and Kobe, you'd have known what I meant. My parents live in Kobe. At least 5 or 6 of their neighbours have a Mercedes or a BMW. The couple next door to them has a 5-Series and a 320i.
> 
> My point is that the Japanese usually don't have the "buy domestic" mentality that you mentioned. They buy Honda's and Toyota's because they are reliable and take you from point A to point B smoothly. It is true that the market share of import cars in Japan is quite low; much lower than in most other industrial nations. That's not because of their nationalism -- I can guarantee you that.


man..talk about being spoiled, you dont know the avg Japanese does not have that kind of luxury, just because your neighbors have it doesnt mean the avg joe in Japan has it, oh man oh man! You shouldnt judge your neighborhood as the Japanese standard of living, they are probably the upper middle class or more if they can afford an European Car in Asia. Do you think the typical American in the USA, where the avg per capita income is approx. 25K can afford a 3 series? Same goes for Japan, can the typical office salary man 3 years in, afford a european car like a Benz or BMW? Probably not.

OH yes, Ive been to Osaka, Tokyo, Kyoto, for business and I still didnt see SOOOO many european cars not like when I was in Switzerland or Munich.. 

Its all the above, nationlism, price and quality, the Japanese understand that purchase of foreign goods will not bring on the big trade surplus, and I can guarantee you nothing! LMAO..hahaha.. :rofl:

Just busting your chops BIG (Dai) n HARD...


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## daihard (Feb 15, 2004)

Riuster said:


> man..talk about being spoiled, you dont know the avg Japanese does not have that kind of luxury, just because your neighbors have it doesnt mean the avg joe in Japan has it, oh man oh man!


Spoiled? I am just giving you my own experience about seeing all those foreign cars in Japan. My neighbourhood is just an example. I was born and lived there for 20 years. Tell me, now, what qualifies you better than me to talk about the cars in Japan?



> You shouldnt judge your neighborhood as the Japanese standard of living, they are probably the upper middle class or more if they can afford an European Car in Asia.


I wouldn't disagree that my own neighbourhood is probably in the upper-middle (or even higher) class. OTOH, I lived in different parts of Tokyo for a few years. I also travelled in the country quite a bit, so it's not like I lived within that "guarded block" my entire life over there.

About "Asia," you know you cannot classify all the Asian countries in one category like that. Japan's per capita income is $35.5K. Singapore has the second highest per capita income in Asia at $19.3K.



> Same goes for Japan, can the typical office salary man 3 years in, afford a european car like a Benz or BMW? Probably not.


The used car market in Japan is very generous. A '98 Audi S4-Quattro for $28K. A '00 BMW 318i Touring for $24K. A '01 Alfa Romeo 147 2.0 for $18K.

Do you know, by the way, that a lot of young kids finance their high-performance cars and mods in Japan? They're typically not making anywhere near the median income. Some even live on part-time jobs and spend 99 percent of their hard-earned money on their cars.



> Its all the above, nationlism, price and quality, the Japanese understand that purchase of foreign goods will not bring on the big trade surplus.


They may understand that in theory, but they just don't think about it when they buy their cars.



> Just busting your chops BIG (Dai) n HARD...


To no avail.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

i lived in Japan for 2 1/2 years - tons of BMWs there, but they're really expensive, almost double what they cost here (at least 12 years ago when I lived there). 

Japanese mostly can't afford homes, and they get paid very well, so a lot of them buy nice cars instead. When I worked in Japan, I made only $42,000, but my take home pay was 84% of that, thanks to very low tax on that income level. I could save a ton of money.


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## daihard (Feb 15, 2004)

Dawg90 said:


> i lived in Japan for 2 1/2 years - tons of BMWs there, but they're really expensive, almost double what they cost here (at least 12 years ago when I lived there).


That's a coule of years after I moved to the U.S. The exchange rate was a bit in favour of the U.S. dollar at that time. Right now, it still costs more to buy a BMW there. An E46 M3, for instance, is sold for $72K.



> Japanese mostly can't afford homes, and they get paid very well, so a lot of them buy nice cars instead. When I worked in Japan, I made only $42,000, but my take home pay was 84% of that, thanks to very low tax on that income level. I could save a ton of money.


Their tax structure is: Tax more from the rich.


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

I see, TONS right....TONS...of BMWs...hahaha...only 43K units sold in japan.. for 2003..TONS..right..Ok..whatever you guys say..man.

Tell your story that many Japanese own european cars to the a Japanese farmer, slightly outside of Tokyo or to the taxi driver,..HMMM, DONT MAKE ME DO RESEARCH NOW!!!!..LMAO..hahaha

LMaoo

OK..this thread is off target..perhaps the M2 will go to Japan?


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Riuster said:


> http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/?/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/homepage/0_home.shtml
> USA gets the most with 25.1 percent, 277,037 units
> Germany 23.2, with 255,821 units
> UK with 12.2


Lies, damned lies and statistics:

277k units with a population of 293m and a new-car market size of over 20m (leading export market)

vs

255k units with a population of 84m and a new-car market size of 3m (domestic market)



> the USA ranks number one in market share as one country. Period!


Ra ra ra, is that it, Rooster? 

With roughly 32% of the world's economy I would expect nothing less. Or did your last comment have a point to it with regards to the M2 and if so, what is it?


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