# M --> needs to go back to racing roots.



## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

do any of you feel as though our M cars have become "M"arketing wonders as opposed to thinly veiled track machines?

the biggest issue i always encounter with the M cars: too freaking heavy.

there is no better illustration of this than nurburgring times, for example, between the current E46m3 and the euro 321hp e36m3. very, very close? why? the new car is saddled with 200-300lbs more weight.

in racing, the typical weight penalties are 150lbs. 

i know i feel as though my m coupe is a pig at 3000lbs; the miata we used to own was the pure essence of sports car. limited slip, lightweight, handled on rails. and this translated into longer brake and tire life, too.

the new mz cars are 3000lbs.
the new m3 is 3450 lbs.
the new m5 is 4000 lbs.

what's wrong with this picture?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2002)

Your post make me think back to a review of the E46 M3 I read in the NY Times a few months back. I dug up a link- http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/25/automobiles/25NEIL.html

Added weight plus complex technology added to help manage it is not what true sports cars are about. I too hope this trend does not continue.

Maybe I need to renew my search for a clean, low-mileage E30 M3.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Buy a CSL if that's what you want. 

I for one couldn't be happier with my E46 M3. The fact that we now get the same engine as the rest of the world makes me very very happy. And say what you will about how heavy it is, but it still kicks major butt in every performance measure. Simply the best bang for the buck high performance 4 seater in the world! (Don't bring up the WRX either, because that thing is just too ugly to drive)


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*weight and the track.....*

my coupe goes through brakes and rubber like crazy.

much more so than my instructor's e30m3 (gorgeous) or the raceprepped miata i owned ever did.

so, i'm a firm believer not just on theoretical merits but from personal experience.

that said: i love the new S54 M motor and also am glad they brought it stateside.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

and I don't think a Miata can keep up with one on the track either. Plain and simple the new bimmers are more advanced and faster, even though heavier (and safer) than their previous models.

Look at the new race cars, they are all electronics. Take the E46M3 and the F1 cars.

The technology is here to stay.

IMHO,
Haus


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2002)

atyclb said:


> *Buy a CSL if that's what you want.
> 
> I for one couldn't be happier with my E46 M3. The fact that we now get the same engine as the rest of the world makes me very very happy. And say what you will about how heavy it is, but it still kicks major butt in every performance measure. Simply the best bang for the buck high performance 4 seater in the world! (Don't bring up the WRX either, because that thing is just too ugly to drive) *


Oh yeah, the CSL. I'll pick one up with the extra $100K I have in my mattress.

BTW, have you read the review I linked?


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*raceprepped miata?*

an instructor in a raceprepped miata will embarass novices in C5's or M3s.

i've seen it 3 times now.

let alone e30m3s which "only" have 230hp, but somehow, no one can ever catch them.

there: we're talking about driver ability.

but the weight makes accleration and braking easier on the car and driver. coming down the front straight at gateway at 120+ is fun in a blown coupe, but it's hairy braking it repeatedly versus the lighter cars.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

I've read it, yes. I still couldn't be happier with my car. Though I haven't driven an E36 M3 (much less the 321 bhp version), I will say that there is a UK board devoted to the M3, and everyone there clearly favors the E46 version to the E36 evo version.

I assume you haven't test driven an E46 M3, correct?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2002)

in_d_haus said:


> *
> The technology is here to stay.
> *


I don't doubt that. The theoretical argument is- Should it be that way? And is there a market for an updated 2002tii or E30M3?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2002)

atyclb said:


> *I assume you haven't test driven an E46 M3, correct? *


Nope. Between my lack of free time outside of the office and the fact that dealers don't like tossing the keys to a new M3 to someone that they KNOW is not going to buy it, I have not driven one yet.

But, and maybe I'm WAY off here, other than a lot more HP, how different does it feel from a 330 w/SP. My former 330 had upgraded (UUC) sways. My complaints with that car centered around how the technology removed the feeling of the driver being connected to the machine. The DSC, the DBW throttle, the self-adjusting clutch, the light, unnatural steering, and the sheer mass of it all combined to make the car feel very capable but not a lot of fun. I found driving that car to be more of a chore than a joy. Hence, it's gone.

Have you driven a 330Ci back to back with the E46 M3 and compared? How different is the non-power related feel elements? I am not huge on HP. I relish the sublime "feel" traits of even my wife's E36 323iC. IMO, HP is far less important than those elements of "feel".

That's why that NY Times review stuck in my head. Because that's exactly what he addresses. And his comments are so consistent with what I felt coming out of the 330 w/SP that I'm inclined to believe the reviewer that those complaints DO extend to the E46 M3 as well.

Tell me I'm wrong.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*the market will tell us in a year.*

so, the entry cost of that handbuilt S54 M motor int he new M3 is $52k or so.

the new 350Z track prepped version will be MSRP'd at 35k.

the new RX8 will be track prepped at 35k (with EVERYTHING).

the lotus elise is coming to the US at 35k.

the boxster S will be revamped with a 3.4litre 280hp motor; boxster S can already hold their own on the track with 250hp.

enthusiasts aren't stupid. if BMW doesn't come out with a lightweight track fighter, it will just go the way of audi and it's fata$$ S4 models which go well in a straight line but don't do very much of anything else all that well.

so: we have to separate price-sensitive enthusiasts (BMW loses) versus price-insensitive (us guys). how many of us will pony up 100k for a CSL when I can buy/will buy a C4S with 350hp for 80k which (with AWD) only weighs 3200 lbs? even if we're price-insensitive, again, we're still educated consumers.

for taking an M to the track, it's still a better proposition to track an e30m3 or an e36m3. M is motorsport. it's not "Gran Touring"; that was the original intent of my post.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Have you driven a 330Ci back to back with the E46 M3 and compared? How different is the non-power related feel elements? I am not huge on HP. I relish the sublime "feel" traits of even my wife's E36 323iC. IMO, HP is far less important than those elements of "feel".
> 
> Tell me I'm wrong. *


Sorry--the M3 is my first BMW. (Talk about a nice introduction to the marque!):angel:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

I still think the CSL is slated for the $70-80,000 range, not $100,000.

No chump change, I know, but still--$75,000 is a lot less than $100,000


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*have driven both.*

and we also own our first E46.

the chassis is nice. not as communicative as my e36m3, very dulled. is it better? probably. more rigid. no doubt a safer car. i really enjoy driving the 325xiT when i get the chance. it's a great commuter car; everything is smooth, insulated, dampened.

no wonder 3 series cars sell so well.

and i have test driven the 6speed e46m3. and the new 2001+ M coupe with 315hp. granted, i drive the old motor everyday and it's blown (SC), so i have a certain reference.

i really enjoy the spooling. it screams to redline. very, very fun. but let me say this: the test drive i took in a 2002 911 C2 was even BETTER. that engine still spools to its 7200rpm redline, but also has the torque that i didn't feel in the new S54 motor. it's more accessible power midrange.

i still dream about that test drive. it was intoxicating.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2002)

atyclb said:


> *
> 
> Sorry--the M3 is my first BMW. (Talk about a nice introduction to the marque!):angel: *


DING DING DING!!!

We have our explanation!!!

Go drive an E36 M3 and I'll try to drive an E46 M3 and we'll resume this discussion.

I've owned an E30 '91 318is (which had the E30M3's suspension), a 2001 330i w/SP (and a bunch of UUC mods including sways) and currently have two E36s (a '99 323iC and a '98 M3 sedan). All of the above are 5-spds.

The 330 had no soul. I'd rather drive the 318is. It was A LOT more fun to drive than the 330. And it definitely had a soul.

Old-timers are not *****ing about newer BMWs just to be cranky. Sure the current models are much more mainstream but they just don't feel as good.

You should have no problem finding an E36M3 to testdrive. Let me know how it goes.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*you loser, TD.*

you're a dirty, rotten, filthy, stinking scoundrel.

there isn't a day that goes by that i don't miss my e36m3. or when i see one drive by? i mourn.

if mine hadn't been t-boned by a fruitcake, i would still have my e36m3. the m coupe is just a beast compared to that car.

thanks for rubbing that in, buddy.

:thumb:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

I don't know--there are also tons of guys on the org M3 board who have both or had both. They also really enjoy the new one. Though you WILL hear some of them still rave about the E36.

Why don't you ask a well thought out question (like your one above) and see what they have to say?


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

By the way, I would tell you to search the archives, because there have been a few questions about comparing the two. Unfortunately, the search on the M3 board is still COMPLETELY useless. C & A haven't gotten around to improving our search


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*with all due respect to the E46M3:*

because it's a fantastic car for 90% of driving conditions. in experienced hands, it is rewarding and quick: all over town and on the track. it is the leatherman of BMW's lineup.

the "halo" of the M makes it appealing for many people. if you're going to get a nice car, why not the M3? for enthusiasts, it's heavenly because we finally get to sample what europeans have gotten for the past 10 years.

it's still a turn off for the diehards, and for the most part: the M coupe owner is a diehard. sure, we get our saab-types who buy it to "be different", but overall, still diehard bunch. with the demise of the M coupe, most of "us" are left hanging. we will probably hang on to our M coupes, but we're also looking ahead. many have migrated to the Z06 (i know, i know, but it's fast on the track); ordered elises, bought WRX's, and many will probably buy evo7/8's from mitsu.

for those who expect/interpret M as "motorsport", there are not a lot of options now or in the near future. frankly, most anyone can put in more HP in a weight-insensitive fashion like the AMG cars, the jaguar R types, and the audi S cars. and they all are doing so. BMW still manages to hold the upper hand because they still (1) offer manuals and (2) still do better chassis setups; but if you read between the lines of every review.....words such as "substantial"......"weighty"......."heavier"........come up.

:dunno:


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

Yup. You're wrong bud! 

Seriously though, I haven't driven a 330 SP, but if it's not THAT different from a 01 325 SP (or 00 323 SP) in terms of handling, feel, etc, it's night and day. I think you'd be surprised by the DBW (i.e. Sport button) throttle, clutch, and steering on the E46 M3. :thumb:

Anyway, I understand where you're coming from... In order to get those nice things (that were there in the first place), one shouldn't have to shell out $56K for an M car...



TD said:


> *
> Tell me I'm wrong. *


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