# Talk about Tesla



## bvhbmw (Jun 12, 2011)

This thread is here for all comments relating to Tesla cars. Please use this thread rather than other threads that are more about the i8 and i3.

Thank you.


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## keeponrunning (Mar 4, 2015)

*crickets*

bvhbmw, starting a Tesla Thread is a good idea since the discussion was derailed in the thread about the I8 electric range. Unfortunately, I don't think this will get much action until some BMW supporters speak up. In the other thread, almost all of the pro Tesla posts were in response to what they thought were incorrect statements about Teslas (I agree that there were many incorrect things said about Teslas) or in response to questions from other posters.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

Ask a question about owning a Tesla and I'll be happy to try answering it. There is way too much misinformation out there that it would be nice to try to clarify any questions you guys may have.


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## Me530 (Feb 17, 2005)

...not that I'm opposed to talking about tesla but shouldn't this be in the general automotive forum?


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

Enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrUskqXAUww&feature=youtu.be


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Me530 said:


> ...not that I'm opposed to talking about tesla but shouldn't this be in the general automotive forum?


Dunno. Seems to me, at least for now, this is a good place to talk about electric cars, BMW or otherwise,


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## sjpaul (May 22, 2013)

LucM said:


> Ask a question about owning a Tesla and I'll be happy to try answering it. There is way too much misinformation out there that it would be nice to try to clarify any questions you guys may have.


Thanks for answering some questions!

What's the standard practice for charging your Tesla in your driveway if you don't have a garage? Is there a 240v solution for at-home out-door charging?


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## PBEndo (Mar 1, 2015)

sjpaul said:


> What's the standard practice for charging your Tesla in your driveway if you don't have a garage? Is there a 240v solution for at-home out-door charging?


Yes, a standard 240V NEMA 14-50 outlet can be placed outside. That is the same outlet you see standard at campgrounds and RV parks.


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## PumpkinBimmer (Apr 1, 2008)

The car is listed as weighing a lot. The 85D weighs in at 4950 lbs. How does the car feel cornering and braking? Can you compare it to lighter cars you have driven? If so, which ones.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

My last three cars were a Porsche 997 911, a Mini Cooper S and a Lotus Elise. I don't have a S85D, I have a S85. It weighs roughly 4,600, still a VERY heavy car. In my opinion, the car handles and brakes much better than you think a 4,600 pound car would. That is most likely due to its very low center of gravity. Since the batteries sit under the floor of the passengers the center of gravity is the same as the Corvette. Don't take my word for it, there are plenty of reviews out there. The car is rather planted.


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## PumpkinBimmer (Apr 1, 2008)

Luc - thanks for your response. My daughter has a lot of experience with both the i8 and the Tesla S 85. (She's 18. Her BFF doesn't like to drive and has a Tesla. My daughter has also wheedled the i8 out of me several times and loves to drive it when we're together. Which I let her do.)

We live in the mountains. Which means mountain roads. My daughter says the Tesla feels dead and heavy. True, it's low to the ground, but my daughter says it doesn't handle well. The i8, on the other hand, she says feels like a sports car and pretty much like the 2010 Z4 35i she used to drive.

The 85D weighs another 300 lbs. more than the 85, with its weight listed at 4950 lbs. So I was wondering if Tesla simply added more battery capacity and electric motors or did something to make it drive more lively. I guess it will be a while before we know.

But if you could give us a comparison to the sports cars you've owned that would be helpful, even though the cars are built for different purposes. (When 85D promoters gush about the 3.2 0-60 times, to the extent they are saying it's fast, sure it is. But that's in a straight line. The question for me, and others who own the i8, is how does the car _handle_?


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

As I mentioned, I was pleasantly surprised by the handling of this car. I have driven sports cars most of my life....M(Z3) Coupe, Porsche 911, Mini Cooper S, Lotus Elise and have tracked several of them. I don't drive cars even close to 6/10ths on public streets anymore. That being said, the Tesla is no slouch in a corner.

If you want better handling, look towards the P85D. Here are some reviews:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-first-drive-review

http://www.cnet.com/products/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d/2/

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/

There are plenty more reviews out there. Or you can come over to the Tesla Forum at www.teslamotors.com and ask others yourself. Better yet, go for a test drive. It just may surprise you!


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## PumpkinBimmer (Apr 1, 2008)

Luc - Thanks for the link. If I'm in the market for a new sedan and the battery issues have been resolved (range and charging time), I'd be interested in test driving one.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

No problem. In the meantime I will be enjoying my ride (as you enjoy your i8 I am sure), never having to go to the gas station, and waking up with a full tank every morning (5 seconds of charging time for me as I just plug it in and forget about it until the morning). Range and time to charge isn't an issue for me. Will even be driving down to FL in a couple of months.


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## bvhbmw (Jun 12, 2011)

Tesla's world-shattering announcement about the end of "range anxiety" is a better nav system. What a joke.


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## imae34driver (Feb 26, 2013)

bvhbmw said:


> Tesla's world-shattering announcement about the end of "range anxiety" is a better nav system. What a joke.


I once knew a guy who was addicted to drinking brake fluid!
"Says he can stop anytime!"

But your right, that one was better. Hahahaha


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

I admit that the press conference was way over-hyped, but it was a tad more than you seem to suggest. Here is a summary:

vailable Here

http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit

Energy and Range

Our energy and range functions eliminate "range anxiety" and remove the hassle of planning road trips before you embark. By introducing Range Assurance and Trip Planner into Model S's navigation, long distance travel is now foolproof.

Navigation automatically routes Model S through Tesla's charging network. Currently 90% of the US population is within 175 miles of a Tesla Supercharger; finding quick and convenient charging has never been easier. Include Tesla Destination Chargers and 95% of the US Population is now within ample range of Tesla's charging network.

Trip Planner

Model S owners can now take road trips with confidence. Simply select a destination, and Navigation will now automatically route through the appropriate superchargers if charging is needed for your trip. Trip Planner will select a route to minimize driving and charging time. At each supercharger stop, Trip Planner will notify you via the iPhone app when you've charged enough to continue on your trip. Android app users can monitor charging needed for the trip via the Charging screen.

Automatic routing along Tesla's Charging Network Push Notifications at Superchargers

Model S will notify drivers via the App when they have enough juice to depart for the next Supercharger or their final destination.

Range Assurance

Model S does the thinking for you. By continually monitoring and advising owners when they are at risk of driving beyond the range of reliable charging locations, "range anxiety" is gone. When the warning is triggered, Model S provides a list of Superchargers, Tesla Destination Chargers, and locations where the vehicle has previously charged that are within current range. Drivers then select a charging destination from the list and Navigation will provide turn-by-turn guidance along with the predicted battery energy when you get there.

Driver Assistance Features

The new Driver Assistance features in 6.2 are designed to intelligently anticipate and react to potentially dangerous situations. Since the unveiling of autopilot in fall 2014, Tesla has pushed a number of active safety features to Model S via wireless software updates that enhance the safety of Model S and bring Tesla closer to rolling out full autopilot capabilities to vehicles on the road.

Automatic Emergency Braking

This new Collision Avoidance Assist feature automatically engages the brakes to reduce the impact of an unavoidable frontal collision. Automatic Emergency Braking will stop applying the brakes when the driver presses the accelerator pedal, the brake pedal, or sharply turns the steering wheel.

Blind Spot Warning

Blind Spot Warning assists the driver to change lanes safely. When Model S is travelling between 20 mph (30 km/h) and 85 mph (140 km/h) and detects a vehicle in the driver's blind spot, a white arc will appear on the instrument panel near the bottom of the speedometer. If a collision with the vehicle becomes likely, two red arcs will appear, the steering wheel will vibrate, and the driver will hear a chime.

Valet Mode

Valet Mode conveniently and discreetly limits Model S's driving performance and restricts access to certain settings and personal information. With the touch of a button, owners can place a limit on speed, lock the glove box and frunk, and disable personal information like driver profiles and homelink settings.

P85D Top Speed

The top speed for P85D is now 155 mph (250 km/h).

When your car can improve itself for FREE and WITHOUT having to go to the dealer then maybe you can criticize the Tesla. You do realize that with a Tesla, you get new software every 3-4 months that improves the car and most of the time adds features....all for free, all from your wifi connection, all from your garage.

Thanks,
LucM


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Posts stripped.

Lets keep this thread fun and enjoyable for everyone.

Thanks.


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## kip (May 19, 2005)

LucM;895447...M(Z3) Coupe said:


> Sorry, but I lost you there, how does awd make the car handle better? Yes it handles better in the snow, thats it. The Tesla is Avery nice car and a technological marvel, but a 911 owner will think of a Tesla as a big heavy sedan, they are in a totally different league. A Lotus Elise, you cant be serious...
> 
> 850kg vs 2100kg, and you see no difference


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

AWD makes for better handling in all conditions. The Lotus is the best handling car of the three. The discussion was handling, not top end power. I will not respond again to this.


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## Bmwlvr60 (Oct 28, 2012)

Yesterday, a Tesla dealer opened in Paramus, NJ. 

Long story short, about a year ago Governor Chris Christie sided with the NJ Automobile Dealer's Association in designating Tesla as violating NJ law. Manufacturers of cars must sell their cars through retail dealers which of course Tesla doesn't do. It appears that the Governor may be backiong off his previous position. A Tesla dealer in Short Hills, NJ shut it's doors a year after The Governor's decree.


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## bredi (Feb 13, 2005)

the i3/ i8 forum is a great place to discuss Tesla. We are all here to make BMW better, and why not discuss a company and product that challenges BMW more than any? Audi? Mercedes? Lexus? Please... that is so 2k. BMW took the initiative with i3 and i8 and the only performance car close to (if not surpass it) is a Tesla.

Bring it on... if Tesla makes BMW better and.... BMW pushes Tesla! I'm all for it!


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## kip (May 19, 2005)

LucM said:


> AWD makes for better handling in all conditions. The Lotus is the best handling car of the three. The discussion was handling, not top end power. I will not respond again to this.


Awd cars tend to understeer in the corners. Awd gives more traction in the corners, but I still fail to see and you failed to explain why it would handle better in the dry. You also named a few of the worlds best handling cars and then named Tesla. I am sorry but I have to disagree, Tesla is known for many thibgs, but handling is OK, but just ok.. That is called a discussion. You reaction is very odd. I love the Tesla and the final desicion for me was between the, 991 turbo s, i8 and the P85d. For me it was a desicion of handling vs power, sportiness vs everyday usability. I chose the i8, clearly the better handling car vs Tesla and I dont need the space, although quite not a 911. And here you are claiming that awd makes cars handle better and claiming a Tesla with 2100 kg handles like 850kg car. Either you havent been even 1/10 of the cars capabilities or you are here defending you purchase and having second thoughts. The only reason I would see you here is truly discussing different Sportscars and telling people who are in the same crossroad tips on why one would chose the Tesla over i8: practicality, 5-7 seats, more power, etc. but no, you start your so called discussion without any explanation, making statements and ending the discussion?. I love nothing more than to debate about Tesla vs i8 as I love both of them, and am trading my Panamera Turbo to the i8. If the deal would have been better, I would have maybe chosen differently, thats how close it was. I think the slightly plain looks of the Tesla was not enough and the 991 Turbo S was just too close to my own car at the moment, although I think is one of the best handling cars in the world. I also decided to be more ecological this time round, but once the 991 Turbo hybrid enters, I am pretty sure I will skip back to the P. So please start discussing and you are also free to disagree, but not in the way you did in your previous posts. 

You had to expect disagreement on a i8 forum. I bet you get only cheers and agreements on the Tesla Forum.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

So you say AWD gives you more traction in the corners, how can you disagree that AWD cars don't handle better? I said the Tesla handles surprisingly well for a 4.6k pound car, I didn't say it was an open wheel formula ford or something. For everyday spirited driving the Tesla is very competent. The i8 and the Tesla are two very different cars, tough to really compare them. For everyday usability there really isn't a comparison, IMHO. But I imagine the i8 isn't made for everyday driving, lugging people and cargo, doing errands, etc.


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## kip (May 19, 2005)

You are right in a way,butthen again for me both are awd, both can Cary 4, 2 kids in the back, both can make the trip to my workplace on e-drive, both cargo spaces can hold my work bag  For me it will be my Dd and it is also my friends dd!


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## kip (May 19, 2005)

For me handling is how the suspension is set up, the weight and its distribution Etc. Awd might make a nicely balanced rwd car understeer withawd, making it handle worse and it also makes the car heavier , so no, awd doesnt always make the car handle better.


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## imae34driver (Feb 26, 2013)

Unless its a p85d rally car, RWD is better handling. Look at F1


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

kip said:


> For me handling is how the suspension is set up, the weight and its distribution Etc. Awd might make a nicely balanced rwd car understeer withawd, making it handle worse and it also makes the car heavier , so no, awd doesnt always make the car handle better.


Sure, a crappy AWD car won't handle as well as a 911 let's say, but all else being equal the AWD car will handle better.


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## kip (May 19, 2005)

LucM said:


> Sure, a crappy AWD car won't handle as well as a 911 let's say, but all else being equal the AWD car will handle better.


I am sorry, but it is just not true. It is safer and has more grip/traction, but the car may understeer and handle worse.

That mentioned torque vectoring might help cornering speeds, but saying defacto that awd makes a car handle better is not true.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

First you say it is not true and then you say it may. "Not true" and "may" don't go together. Tough to understeer like crazy if it gives you more grip. A good AWD system will compensate for that initial slippage and if you keep your foot on it, it will go through that turn well. I'll take four wheel grip vs two thank you very much.

You act live RWD cars have no understeer. Well, they do. And guess what, some even have some pretty nasty oversteer. So much so that even nice 911s were called widow makers because if you happen to arrive at a corner going to fast and you did the wrong thing and let off the gas midturn, you were spinning (and not spinning for joy) off the track. AWD cars make this MUCH less likely.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

The problem with AWD cars and like you say all else being equal, is that they are much heavier than RWD cars due to the transmission setup etc. This is the main reason why good drivers prefer RWD cars. Lighter and therefore, can handle out of corners faster than AWD cars.

Most AWD cars are pigs. Just look at 911 turbo vs GT3. Which do you think handles better.



LucM said:


> First you say it is not true and then you say it may. "Not true" and "may" don't go together. Tough to understeer like crazy if it gives you more grip. A good AWD system will compensate for that initial slippage and if you keep your foot on it, it will go through that turn well. I'll take four wheel grip vs two thank you very much.
> 
> You act live RWD cars have no understeer. Well, they do. And guess what, some even have some pretty nasty oversteer. So much so that even nice 911s were called widow makers because if you happen to arrive at a corner going to fast and you did the wrong thing and let off the gas midturn, you were spinning (and not spinning for joy) off the track. AWD cars make this MUCH less likely.


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## kip (May 19, 2005)

Moi


LucM said:


> First you say it is not true and then you say it may. "Not true" and "may" don't go together. Tough to understeer like crazy if it gives you more grip. A good AWD system will compensate for that initial slippage and if you keep your foot on it, it will go through that turn well. I'll take four wheel grip vs two thank you very much.
> 
> You act live RWD cars have no understeer. Well, they do. And guess what, some even have some pretty nasty oversteer. So much so that even nice 911s were called widow makers because if you happen to arrive at a corner going to fast and you did the wrong thing and let off the gas midturn, you were spinning (and not spinning for joy) off the track. AWD cars make this MUCH less likely.


It seems that you have absolutely no idea what awd means and I doubt you have ever driven the cars you say you have. Your answers are aggressive and useless. Please go back to the Tesla Forum and annoy people there with your wisdom. Now I am ending this useless conversation.

And FYI, Porsche 911 was called a widow maker bexause the weight of the engine is in the bac, not because it is rwd.


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

Lets keep this on topic and fun and friendly for everyone. If you don't have anything nice to post, find another thread to participate in.

Tim


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

kip said:


> Moi
> 
> It seems that you have absolutely no idea what awd means and I doubt you have ever driven the cars you say you have. Your answers are aggressive and useless. Please go back to the Tesla Forum and annoy people there with your wisdom. Now I am ending this useless conversation.
> 
> And FYI, Porsche 911 was called a widow maker bexause the weight of the engine is in the bac, not because it is rwd.


It was called the widow maker because its tendency to oversteer. Sure the weight of the engine being in the back led the car to have a greater tendency to oversteer, but doesn't cause the oversteer. See the difference? The oversteer is most likely caused when going hot into a corner and lifting off the throttle. The weight of the car then wants to go to front tires when it is needed in the rear. The rear gets light, the last thing you want in the middle of a corner, resulting in oversteer.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

Mine deserved to be deleted not for content of course 

OK. I'll be more subtle from now



tim330i said:


> Lets keep this on topic and fun and friendly for everyone. If you don't have anything nice to post, find another thread to participate in.
> 
> Tim


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

Every 911 has tendency to oversteer. Oversteer can be induced on every RWD. Widowmaker (one word, not two LucM), is when you have so much power that oversteer (or snap oversteer) can't be controlled because it happens so fast.

See the difference?



LucM said:


> It was called the widow maker because its tendency to oversteer. Sure the weight of the engine being in the back led the car to have a greater tendency to oversteer, but doesn't cause the oversteer. See the difference? The oversteer is most likely caused when going hot into a corner and lifting off the throttle. The weight of the car then wants to go to front tires when it is needed in the rear. The rear gets light, the last thing you want in the middle of a corner, resulting in oversteer.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

Snap oversteer has nothing to do with having too much power. 

I think you need to elaborate more than that. Just saying too much power doesn't do it justice. It is the dynamic of weight being transferred from the rear tires to the front tires in a turn by lifting off the throttle. The rear tires lose grip (less force on them) and boom, snap oversteer. In a sense, the rear tires needed MORE power (or at least consistent power in a turn) to be delivered to them in order to grip better, not less.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

I said "or" snap oversteer. And yes, it certainly has a lot to do with having too much power (for widowmaker definition purposes)


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

After 12 Porsches and over 20 years of track experience, I certainly have experienced normal oversteer, power oversteer, and yes snap oversteer. You need to listen to what others are saying before you rattle off what little understanding you have on the subject. You have a tendency to put others down and that's what's ticking off a lot of folks that have to bear reading your soliloquy.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

jcpca356 said:


> I said "or" snap oversteer. And yes, it certainly has a lot to do with having too much power (for widowmaker definition purposes)


How? Only in the respect that you use that power unwisely and go into a corner too fast. That won't cause oversteer, but it may get a novice to lift off the throttle while midturn AND that WILL cause oversteer. Please don't lecture me on driving dynamics and call me unflattering things if you can't explain them correctly. I will repeat, too much power doesn't cause oversteer. Going into a corner too fast and lifting off the throttle does.


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## bredi (Feb 13, 2005)

Do the physics change when the car is an all electric AWD? Less weight in front etc. I would think an all electric AWD like the Tesla 85D is less likely to oversteer with most of the weight in the middle of the car.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

bredi said:


> Do the physics change when the car is an all electric AWD? Less weight in front etc. I would think an all electric AWD like the Tesla 85D is less likely to oversteer with most of the weight in the middle of the car.


I think the weight distribution of the Model S is 48% front/52% rear (non AWD version). The AWD version would have MORE weight in the front (the second motor is mounted on the front axle) but I haven't seen any stats on its weight distribtution. Sure the battery is heavy, it is in the middle of the car and it does lower the center of gravity big time, but since there is slightly more weight in the back (non AWD version) I don't know how much that helps. I don't plan on driving this thing that fast around corners to find out where the oversteer could kick in. That is for track purposes only (going that fast around turns on public streets is foolish) and I don't plan on tracking the Tesla. I do have fun going around corners, but I don't take then at any speed that would lead to oversteer.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

jcpca356 said:


> After 12 Porsches and over 20 years of track experience, I certainly have experienced normal oversteer, power oversteer, and yes snap oversteer. You need to listen to what others are saying before you rattle off what little understanding you have on the subject. You have a tendency to put others down and that's what's ticking off a lot of folks that have to bear reading your soliloquy.


Noted. Maybe I am a bit defensive because there are several people here putting down Tesla with a less than full understanding of what it is (like stating that it takes 72 hrs to charge it - yes it would take that long on a 110v outlet but nobody does that) and what it is like to drive/own one.

But you didn't describe oversteer at all. You just said stuff that increased the probability of it happening (more weight in the back, more power) and then you claimed I didn't know what oversteer was. I believe I gave you the proper "definition" of oversteer. I don't have 20 years track experience but I did track my Lotus for several years after tracking my M Coupe with the BMWCAA for a coule of years, did karts for a bit, and took an open wheel drivng school at Bertil Roos. I think I know the definition of oversteer. I think you know it too but you didn't describe it.


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## Runon MD1 (Dec 26, 2006)

imae34driver said:


> I once knew a guy who was addicted to drinking brake fluid!
> "Says he can stop anytime!"
> 
> But your right, that one was better. Hahahaha


"Your" right what, exactly? Foot? Arm?


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## kip (May 19, 2005)

LucM said:


> It was called the widow maker because its tendency to oversteer. Sure the weight of the engine being in the back led the car to have a greater tendency to oversteer, but doesn't cause the oversteer. See the difference? The oversteer is most likely caused when going hot into a corner and lifting off the throttle. The weight of the car then wants to go to front tires when it is needed in the rear. The rear gets light, the last thing you want in the middle of a corner, resulting in oversteer.


Try throwing a hammer first the handle first and then the otger way round. The weight in the back is the problem. Just experienced this a week ago int the 991 Turbo and turbo s on a snow track. Modern 991 has a lot of safety features to counteract that, but the problem is there. You can actually use that oversteer in the Scandinavian flick. So you are now saying that adding the extra weight of the second electric engine in the front of the Tesla is making it handle better? You dont think it will cause understeer? Why do cars aim at a 50/50 weight distribution if it doesnt matter. I still think this is a useless thread and off topic.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

Yes Kip, let's get back to how Tesla is boring looking like the Toyota Avalon and how everyone is saying Tesla will go bankrupt or get eaten up by another company.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

kip said:


> Try throwing a hammer first the handle first and then the otger way round. The weight in the back is the problem. Just experienced this a week ago int the 991 Turbo and turbo s on a snow track. Modern 991 has a lot of safety features to counteract that, but the problem is there. You can actually use that oversteer in the Scandinavian flick. So you are now saying that adding the extra weight of the second electric engine in the front of the Tesla is making it handle better? You dont think it will cause understeer? Why do cars aim at a 50/50 weight distribution if it doesnt matter. I still think this is a useless thread and off topic.


No, that isn't what I am saying. I don't know how the AWD version handles since I haven't driven that but I bet the weight distribution would be closer to 50/50 since it does have extra weight in the front and the non AWD version is 48/52 (front/rear). Yes, I agree...50/50 would be better, so I think we are saying the same thing.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

jcpca356 said:


> Yes Kip, let's get back to how Tesla is boring looking like the Toyota Avalon and how everyone is saying Tesla will go bankrupt or get eaten up by another company.


Seems to me most of the people that are saying this are people that are threatened by EVs or don't really understand them. Sure, there is a ton of risk. Tesla must come out with the SUV later this year, they must come out with Model III in 2017. If the Model III comes out on time and is less than $40k then I think LOTS more people will make the switch. Of course, there are plenty of risks along the way.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

Does Tesla have the capital to develop multiple line of cars? I think the capital question is what's driving the risk discussion, especially among finance folks like myself.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

jcpca356 said:


> Does Tesla have the capital to develop multiple line of cars? I think the capital question is what's driving the risk discussion, especially among finance folks like myself.


The SUV model is coming out in 3Q'15. Tesla's market cap is $25B (gotta love tech multiples - I am NOT an owner of the stock) so I imagine they can always issue converts/preferreds or equity if need be. Last year, they spent $57 million on CFO (mostly financing buildup of working capital - cars in transit) and another $969 million on capex, leaving them with $1.9 billion of cash.

They are making SIGNIFICANT capital expenditures to ramp up for the SUV and Model III (already in the works obviously) and the gigafactory, while also building out the supercharger network. If the SUV or Model III bomb there probably will be issues, but if they are like the Model S then I see them being very successful. Successful enough to justify a $25B valuation? I am no opining on that.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

jcpca356 said:


> Does Tesla have the capital to develop multiple line of cars? I think the capital question is what's driving the risk discussion, especially among finance folks like myself.


I'm doubtful that TSLA will be able to continue its current pattern of capex over the long term. The company's present debt to equity ratio is ridiculous! Not to mention its sordid record of product launch delays and ludicrous "justifications" for missing its Q4 2014 targets.

TSLA's market capitalization certainly isn't justified by the fundamentals. Elon Musk even warned investors earlier this year that the company isn't expected to register GAAP profits until 2020. 

2020? By then, Tesla will probably join the bevy of "historic" automotive marques.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

LucM said:


> Seems to me most of the people that are saying this are people that are threatened by EVs or don't really understand them. Sure, there is a ton of risk. Tesla must come out with the SUV later this year, they must come out with Model III in 2017. If the Model III comes out on time and is less than $40k then I think LOTS more people will make the switch. Of course, there are plenty of risks along the way.


Among those risks is the fact that Tesla doesn't offer anything truly exclusive in the automotive marketplace. Whatever comparative advantage Tesla has now is likely to dwindle in coming years as players like BMW, Nissan, and General Motors introduce new and redesigned EVs.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

gkr778 said:


> Among those risks is the fact that Tesla doesn't offer anything truly exclusive in the automotive marketplace. Whatever comparative advantage Tesla has now is likely to dwindle in coming years as players like BMW, Nissan, and General Motors introduce new and redesigned EVs.


I beg to disagree, nobody has mentioned building out a nationwide network of superchargers. Sure, BMW and VW are talking about building 100 50 kWh chargers in the U.S. sometime in the future. Meanwhile, Tesla currently has 178 Superchargers that deliver 135 kWh of power in the U.S. now, with close to 300 locations by the end of the year and more the year after that, etc. This is a pretty big deal with EVs since you want to be able to drive anywhere without range anxiety right? Over the next two years, the U.S. will be pretty well blanketed by superchargers (just look at the tesla website supercharger tab). This is a pretty significant headstart. Maybe others will introduce the ability to do OTA updates to their software, we will see. That is also a pretty big deal as my car has gotten better since I've owned it (new features, improved features) and I didn't pay for those improvements.

We will see I guess.


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## NoMoreGas (Nov 16, 2014)

I am sorry to be a little late to this website but can someone explain to me why we are discussing Tesla on these boards? This is an honest question from someone who looks to these boards for valuable information about our i3 and i8 models. Information like what other snow tire options there are, how might one get the range extender on earlier in a trip or even a common problem like the KLE issue. It just seems out of place on a marque's automotive chat room to be discussing the vagaries of the financial well-being (or lack thereof) of another marque. It actually detracts from the pieces of valuable information and overall comradery that a single model board discussion offers. To be honest with you, if I wanted a Tesla, I would have bought a Tesla. Not real interested in reading about it here. Just a suggestion to the moderators that wide ranging discussion of another marque dilutes the discussion here. Why not a separate "Other Marques" section? Just a thought.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

I left it here because it was about electric vehicles. Seems like other electric owners would have considered a Tesla. 

So rather than dump it into General Auto I left it here. 

Not sure how one thread 'dilutes' the discussion. YMMV. 

Please post any further comments in the site feedback forum so these guys can continue to talk about the Tesla.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

I honestly think that tesla's competition isn't other EV's. It may actually be the ever improving plug in hybrids. Let's say Lexus came out with a plug-in hybrid ES class for half the price of Tesla sedans and it got say 50 miles on a charge and a small turbo charged gas engine. I think tesla might be toast because you can pretty much take care of local driving with 50 electric miles (even commuting) and you'll have gas to help you for the longer trips. If it got say 45mpg on a hybrid basis, tesla or other ev's would be in big trouble i think.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

jcpca356 said:


> I honestly think that tesla's competition isn't other EV's. It may actually be the ever improving plug in hybrids. Let's say Lexus came out with a plug-in hybrid ES class for half the price of Tesla sedans and it got say 50 miles on a charge and a small turbo charged gas engine. I think tesla might be toast because you can pretty much take care of local driving with 50 electric miles (even commuting) and you'll have gas to help you for the longer trips. If it got say 45mpg on a hybrid basis, tesla or other ev's would be in big trouble i think.


Maybe, but driving in gas mode is very different than driving in EV mode. Lexus already has a couple of hybrids (but not PLUG IN hybrids) that get 40+ MGP combined. Such a different experience versus a pure EV. The beauty of the AC motor is that the response is instantaneous, it is oh so quiet, it just feels very nice, and it is remarkably simple. There is a lot less maintenance and less things to go wrong with an AC motor vs an ICE motor (an AC motor really has only one moving part). I have yet to take a trip that required my ICE vehicle (Jeep Wrangler) vs my Tesla because the range wasn't big enough or there were no chargers. That issue is only going to decrease in the future as more superchargers get built. Why not reduce our dependence on oil and OPEC if we can? The EV is one way to do that. I am lucky enough to also have solar panels installed on my house so in theory the Sun is powering my car. I think that is great for the future in many respects.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

EV just isn't practical for most people. EV ownership requires you to have two cars really. One for daily purposes and one for longer trip purposes. I can't imagine people taking a memorial day weekend or july 4th holiday trips to see families in their EV's, run out of juice, and wait to charge a few hours. That just seems ridiculous. You might say well, they can have a minivan or suv or another car for that purpose but the fact is that most people can't afford to have two cars that serve different purposes. Even if Tesla produced an "affordable" $35k ev, it still wouldn't make sense for most people.


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## jcpca356 (Nov 14, 2006)

Plug-in luxury hybrids (not your regular hybrids that can already get 50mpg) will beat out Teslas I'm afraid


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

jcpca356 said:


> EV just isn't practical for most people. EV ownership requires you to have two cars really. One for daily purposes and one for longer trip purposes. I can't imagine people taking a memorial day weekend or july 4th holiday trips to see families in their EV's, run out of juice, and wait to charge a few hours. That just seems ridiculous. You might say well, they can have a minivan or suv or another car for that purpose but the fact is that most people can't afford to have two cars that serve different purposes. Even if Tesla produced an "affordable" $35k ev, it still wouldn't make sense for most people.


Putting aside the feasibilty of EVs for long trips for a second, do you know how much money you would save with a $35k EV? Assuming it is of equal quality as a $35K ICE, you would probably save $1k a year on fuel (roughly, assuming only 12k miles per year) and I am going to guess $500/year on maintenance (over the long run). So with the $7.5k federal credit (if it is still around in a couple of years) and the fuel/maintenance savings that $35k car will equal the price of a < $20K ICE car over the course of six years.

Now, on long distance driving.....that all depends on where their families are or where they are going right? Longest trip I've taken so far was from SW CT to NE VA (270 miles one way). That required one stop at the Newark DE supercharger while I ate lunch, for 40 minutes. We normally stop anyway while going down but maybe for 20 minutes so this extended our trip for 20 minutes vs an ICE. In April, I am going to Charleston, SC, from SW CT, using the Tesla and Superchargers. That will probably take a couple hours longer than an ICE. Other people have made cross country trips in the Tesla. Sure it increases your travel times, but not by as long as you would think because you are stopping to eat/take bathroom breaks/stretch your legs anyway a lot of the time(s). How often do most people drive longer than 500 miles during the course of a year? The car is a great highway cruiser (besides the range). Plus, most families have more than one car just in case. Don't know of too many suburban families with just one car, especially in the demographic that would spend this much money on a car.


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## u3b3rg33k (Jan 14, 2015)

bvhbmw said:


> Poor Tesla. Lost $74M in 2013. Lost $294M in 2014.


don't forget how things like facebook, amazon, and youtube started...

epic money pits. until they weren't.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

u3b3rg33k said:


> don't forget how things like facebook, amazon, and youtube started...
> 
> epic money pits. until they weren't.


None of those examples were in the capital intensive automotive manufacturing or auto parts sectors. Companies like CODA Automotive, Bright Automotive, Fisker Automotive, Aptera Motors, and Carbon Motors present more appropriate comparisons to TSLA.


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## u3b3rg33k (Jan 14, 2015)

They were plenty capital intensive. so what if it's not manufacturing?


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

u3b3rg33k said:


> They were plenty capital intensive.  so what if it's not manufacturing?


Companies starting out tend to be capital intensive by definition, because large revenue streams are not realized immediately. This applies to TSLA as well as to FB, AMZN, and GOOGL.

As a general rule, it's not practical to compare firms in different industries or sectors in terms of capital intensity because to a large extent, the industries/sectors themselves dictate how capital intensive they are. Automobile manufacturing is considered more capital intensive than most services or retail sectors because a comparatively large portion of capex is directed toward plant, property, and equipment versus labor, and that affects the risk profile for firms in the respective industries/sectors.

Thus, the "money pits" that are most appropriate to compare to TSLA are startup firms in the automotive manufacturing sectors. And in due time TSLA will likely face the same fate as CODA, Bright, Fisker, Aptera, and Carbon - acquisition or dissolution.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Per member feedback, this thread is moved to General automotive. Please carry on.

Rich


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

Member Feedback = 3 votes. LOL.


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## Saintor (Dec 14, 2002)

bvhbmw said:


> Poor Tesla. Lost $74M in 2013. Lost $294M in 2014.


Yeap. The more they sell, the worst their losses.

This is why Tesla is another big fat Nortel. A doomed company that can't justify its 25B$ capitalization. They would need to produce a 1.25B$ to sustain a mere 5%.

Those vehicles are admirable, but the company doesn't hold water.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

WSJ review:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-model-s-the-future-is-here-1428086202

Some quotes: "I know a lot of gear heads. The only ones who don***8217;t think the Model S is the best in the world haven***8217;t driven one."

"After a few days in a Tesla, the experience of firing up some hunk of piston-flapping metal in the driveway***8212;the anxious burr of an internal combustion in cold-start mode***8212;seems a massive step backward."


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

LucM said:


> WSJ review:
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-model-s-the-future-is-here-1428086202
> 
> ...


Tesla Motors is hosting a test drive event this weekend in Annapolis, Maryland. I just signed up. Might as well take the Model S for a spin while the company that makes it is still around.


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## currypot (Oct 29, 2015)

bvhbmw said:


> Poor Tesla. Lost $74M in 2013. Lost $294M in 2014.


Tesla also almost tripled their assets ($1.27 billion to $3.20 billion) while doubling their investment in R&D ($232.0 million to $464.7 million).

They are building a global charging network, global distribution network, and expanding production overseas. They are also building the worlds largest building, which will increase their production capabilities 10 fold and make them the largest Li-ion battery manufacturer in the world.

But yeah, they "lost" $294M. :thumbup:



Saintor said:


> Yeap. The more they sell, the worst their losses.


This isn't true. They have a higher margin on their cars then BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, VW, etc. They are able to achieve this because manufacturer like BMW spend 2k in advertising per car sold, and they end up giving even more than that to the dealers. Tesla is "losing" money because they are expanding at a high rate.


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## PumpkinBimmer (Apr 1, 2008)

Not only is Tesla plagued with a shoddy build and an interior that makes the Hyundai look like a Rolls Royce, but now the entire fleet is being recalled. Every single friggin car. Seat belt issues.


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## Saintor (Dec 14, 2002)

currypot said:


> This isn't true. They have a higher margin on their cars then BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, VW, etc. They are able to achieve this because manufacturer like BMW spend 2k in advertising per car sold, and they end up giving even more than that to the dealers. Tesla is "losing" money because they are expanding at a high rate.


Whatever concept of margin you have in your mind, they are burning money on every car, which explains why their value is going down.

They lost $230M in Q3-2015 alone.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/03/tesla-delivers-record-11-603-vehicles-230-million-loss/

In no way a viable business model, no matter the dreams.


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## LucM (Mar 3, 2015)

PumpkinBimmer said:


> Not only is Tesla plagued with a shoddy build and an interior that makes the Hyundai look like a Rolls Royce, but now the entire fleet is being recalled. Every single friggin car. Seat belt issues.


Imagine that, a car company taking a proactive stance on an issue that has caused no injuries to anyone. Compare that to other car companies that have hid major issues!

The Model S and now X are the safest cars on the road. Check out the crash test results. If your life means something to you then you probably should check out a Tesla.


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## u3b3rg33k (Jan 14, 2015)

LucM said:


> Imagine that, a car company taking a proactive stance on an issue that has caused no injuries to anyone. Compare that to other car companies that have hid major issues!
> 
> The Model S and now X are the safest cars on the road. Check out the crash test results. If your life means something to you then you probably should check out a Tesla.


The teslas do so well in crash tests I'd be willing to drive one into a wall just to see how well it does.

https://youtu.be/dz2FMfv-CSc

https://youtu.be/hTC6cro_ZVo


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## bredi (Feb 13, 2005)

"The real news here is that the recall is *voluntary*. *No one has been hurt or injured as a result of the problem*, which has occurred on *only one car*, so far as the company of the government knows. A check of 3,000 other Model S sedans has found *no evidence that the problem exists anywhere except on this one car* delivered to a customer in Europe."

http://gas2.org/2015/11/21/tesla-recalls-every-model-s-ever-made/


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## currypot (Oct 29, 2015)

Saintor said:


> Whatever concept of margin you have in your mind, they are burning money on every car, which explains why their value is going down.
> 
> They lost $230M in Q3-2015 alone.
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/03/tesla-delivers-record-11-603-vehicles-230-million-loss/
> ...


They are making money in every car, more than any other car manufacturer. They are "losing" money in R&D and and infrastructure... All if which are/create valuable assets that increase the companies net worth.

Also, using Tesla stock against it is pretty asinine. The are valued at 30B while VW and BMW are valued at 60B despite selling 65 and 322 times as many vehicles.


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## SR22pilot (Apr 16, 2016)

OK, so why reply to a long dead thread? I find it interesting to read posts that predict the future and see how well people did 2 years later. Tesla still exists. They still lose money. Superchargers are much more plentiful. BMW is coming out with an all electric 3 series. Volvo says all of their cars will be either hybrid or all electric by the end of 2019. Ah, it was an interesting read.


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