# Accelaration SMG vs Manual Transmission



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Do we have 0-60 comparison figures for SMG vs Manual transmission ? (for E46M3)

It would be great if you could post some links as well.

Thanks


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## flashinthepan (Jul 25, 2003)

Unofficially, everything I read points to 5.0 SMG, 4.8 Manual clutch 6-sp.


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## Ajax (Feb 1, 2002)

flashinthepan said:


> Unofficially, everything I read points to 5.0 SMG, 4.8 Manual clutch 6-sp.


I have heard the same....what it boils down to is the driver. I good driver in an SMG will be able to take a bad one in a regular 6spd.


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## Jim in Oregon (Dec 23, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> Do we have 0-60 comparison figures for SMG vs Manual transmission ? (for E46M3)
> 
> It would be great if you could post some links as well.
> 
> Thanks


The fastest I've seen for SMG is 4.8 to 60 by Car & Driver Magazine. They used the technique of just flooring the gas pedal and then backing off a bit until the tires hooked up. Launch control might be slightly faster.

The 6 speed is slight faster only because you can feather the clutch better off the line.


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## SONET (Mar 1, 2002)

I know you specifically asked about the E46 numbers, but I noticed yesterday when reading on the E60 (545i) that BMW's official marketing numbers give a one-tenth advantage to the manual. Which made me wonder... are they using the same SMGII in the 545i as the M3? The HP is pretty similar so the unit in the M3 should be able to handle it without any problem, but if they are using the same one I would guess they would reprogram it a bit to match the character of the non-M E60. There was probably a thread about this somewhere that I didn't read. heh

As an aside, I noticed that SMG is a no-cost option compared to a manual tranny with the V8. That is a little scary to me for some reason.  

--SONET


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

SONET said:


> Which made me wonder... are they using the same SMGII in the 545i as the M3?
> --SONET


nope


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## SONET (Mar 1, 2002)

atyclb said:


> nope


So they're using the same SSG system that can be found in the non-M E46s and Z4s?

--SONET


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## bimmerguy (Dec 26, 2001)

Here is a link to a great article by European Car mag comparing SMG to Manual.

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0212ec_bmwtech/

Excerpt:

"At the "maximum attack" setting 6, shift times decreased again, bringing the total to 0.80 sec. This is indeed faster than our human driver achieved, and the launch was getting closer. The best quarter mile was 13.61 sec., two-tenths slower than the manual M3. The difference was seen by 60 mph, the SMG car making that sprint in 5.46 sec. versus 5.22 sec. for the manual. On setting 6, the SMG car was astonishingly consistent, laying down three runs that were virtually indistinguishable on the radar traces, with quarter-mile times separated by only 0.02 sec."


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

SONET said:


> So they're using the same SSG system that can be found in the non-M E46s and Z4s?
> 
> --SONET


Yes.

And I still doubt a true "launch control" system like what's found in the M3 is there for the Magnetti SMG. The way the press and BMW describe it in how it's activated, doesn't sound like the clutch is modulated at XXXX RPM for maximum launch grip. It just sounds like you deactivate DSC and put it in sports mode and mash the pedal. Well duh, you're going to get some wheel spin and you're going to get launched fast, but it doesn't have anything to do with "launch control". Heck I can leave sports mode off and mash the pedal and get exactly the same effect, since at full throttle the sports throttle mapping is the same as the none-sports throttle mapping.


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## daihard (Feb 15, 2004)

The number for the manual M3 Coupe that I saw in _Car and Driver_ was 0-60 in 4.6 seconds.


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## Jim H (Feb 9, 2004)

AJAX said:


> I have heard the same....what it boils down to is the driver. I good driver in an SMG will be able to take a bad one in a regular 6spd.


Actually, the whole idea of SMG means that a BAD driver with SMG can beat a bad driver with a regular 6 spd, since SMG decides the manner in which the car shifts regardless whether or not you're a good driver (although yes, the driver can choose WHEN). The end result being that bad drivers are almost equal to good drivers (when it comes to acceleration anyway) with SMG, hence the reason good manual drivers prefer the manual b/c it allows them to be the best they can be.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

The only difference is in the launch. The first few MPH and feet. If you do the runs at a drag strip you will see the difference in the 60 foot times.

And yes, SMG allows you to be more consistant.

On a drag strip SMG is slightly slower (0.1 to 0.2 seconds based on similar tests), on the track SMG is faster and consistantly faster.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> The only difference is in the launch. The first few MPH and feet. If you do the runs at a drag strip you will see the difference in the 60 foot times.
> 
> And yes, SMG allows you to be more consistant.
> 
> On a drag strip SMG is slightly slower (0.1 to 0.2 seconds based on similar tests), on the track SMG is faster and consistantly faster.


 And one should note that the people who are getting manual M3s to go faster than the SMG cars are launching at 4-5000 RPMs.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And one should note that the people who are getting manual M3s to go faster than the SMG cars are launching at 4-5000 RPMs.


not true...optimal launch is around 1800, which is what one of the magazines used in an early test to get a 4.6 or 4.65 0-60 time.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

atyclb said:


> not true...optimal launch is around 1800, which is what one of the magazines used in an early test to get a 4.6 or 4.65 0-60 time.


 Not true.

5000RPM launch: http://www.daftproductions.com/videos/M3_12-638_106-34.mpg

1.75 60ft. time, 12.63 quarter mile. On Contis.

Edit: I'm told that equates to a 4.3 second 0-60 time.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Not true.
> 
> 5000RPM launch: http://www.daftproductions.com/videos/M3_12-638_106-34.mpg
> 
> ...


that's not a stock M3 though...

all I know is that one of the US mags explicitly stated that their best times were at launches below 2500 rpms, and that resulted in times around 4.6.

I've never seen an SMG car tested at 4.6.

So, I'm not wrong


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## bimmerguy (Dec 26, 2001)

atyclb said:


> that's not a stock M3 though...


He says it is..... Its a manual and looks like he has it down....


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

bimmerguy said:


> He says it is..... Its a manual and looks like he has it down....


that's not what he said on roadfly


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

It has pulleys. And a gizmo, which he took out. I think that's close enough to stock for this discussion.

More to the point, his 12.63 is virtually identical to most 1/4 mile runs... EXCEPT for the fact that he is able to modulate the clutch and get the power down at the launch. Pulleys should have the least effect at the launch, especially the sort he's doing.


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## bimmerguy (Dec 26, 2001)

Here is the link to the 12.63 1/4 run :thumbup:

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/4728014-4.html


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

bren said:


> HERE
> 
> *link originally posted on M3forum.com


 Everything I've heard is that Popular Science is full of **** on this one.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

These jounalists are all idiots.  

If they had bothered to figure out how to use the acceleration assist mode, which pulsates the clutch at up to 8 times a second at 1800rpm, the time will be better.

But the one time someone tried to correct them, the stupid magazine that shall remain nameless insisted that the acceleration assist mode is not available in the U.S. They didn't even bother to try out the method described. Morons. :thumbdwn:


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> On a road course lap after lap the SMG will be faster and MUCH more consistant. If not, why would F1 use a similar system?.


you're dreaming if you think the BMW production SMG has even the slightest hint of similarity with an F1 system :rofl: I put it in the same category as traction control; for inexperienced - intermediate drivers it may be an advantage to have it :angel: but the rest can drive faster without it. 

It's a step in the right direction, but I'll wait for the next evolution or two before considering it myself :dunno:


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## flashinthepan (Jul 25, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> It's a step in the right direction, but I'll wait for the next evolution or two before considering it myself :dunno:


Me 2 !


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## Ajax (Feb 1, 2002)

Maybe the last thing I have to say on this topic....

Whether or not you own a regular 6spd or an SMG, the E46 M3 is one of the most awesome performance cars on the market. You really cannot go wrong either way, and arguing one vs the other is pure semantics.

I have to admit that even in automatic A5 (?) this is one *ucking beast of a car. Sure as hell is an upgrade over 99% of what is available.


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## flashinthepan (Jul 25, 2003)

AJAX said:


> Maybe the last thing I have to say on this topic....
> 
> Whether or not you own a regular 6spd or an SMG, the E46 M3 is one of the most awesome performance cars on the market. You really cannot go wrong either way, and arguing one vs the other is pure semantics.
> 
> I have to admit that even in automatic A5 (?) this car is one *ucking beast of a car. Sure as hell is an upgrade over 99% of what is available.


Amen brutha !! & you have one kick-ass M3 !!!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> you're dreaming if you think the BMW production SMG has even the slightest hint of similarity with an F1 system :rofl: I put it in the same category as traction control; for inexperienced - intermediate drivers it may be an advantage to have it :angel: but the rest can drive faster without it.
> 
> It's a step in the right direction, but I'll wait for the next evolution or two before considering it myself :dunno:


Riddle me this, coming into the Esses at Sears Point, the car is at 7000, if you have a regular 6 speed, you have to shift NOW, because you ain't got time to wait for 8000, clutch in, shift, clutch out, throttle and steering input, all at the same time.

With SMG, you redline 3rd, click, it goes to 4th, and you drive through the Esses at a much higher speed.

There are numerous examples of this on the track, and while I have the 6 speed on my Turbo, if Porkchop had made it with SMG as good as the one on the M3, you bet I'll get it.

Equating SMG with DSC is simply an uninformed opinion.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Hehe, did I sound like I was buying a new car ? Nope, if 0-60 was an issue, I'd get a Ford RS200, that would do the job
> 
> Since Autobahns are mostly straight lines, SMG sounds like overrated, unless one is involved in racing or competing. Oh, it costs $4000 too.


You mean yo uNEVER get on the side roads taht are twisty? That you never run down to the Alps area?

If I ONLY ran on Autobahns, I would pick up an E38 7 series. Fast and comfarotable, but not a twisty killer.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> you're dreaming if you think the BMW production SMG has even the slightest hint of similarity with an F1 system :rofl: I put it in the same category as traction control; for inexperienced - intermediate drivers it may be an advantage to have it :angel: but the rest can drive faster without it.
> 
> It's a step in the right direction, but I'll wait for the next evolution or two before considering it myself :dunno:


Have you spent time with one on the track? And realize we are not talking about the crappy system offered in the Z4, this is a discussion of SMG II in the M3, which is already a second generation system.

No it isn't a full out F1 system, but what system on a street car is? It works VERY well, quick shifts when called for. Less concentration and time used for downshifts. All good things on teh track.

But let's look at the similarities. Effortless up and down shifts with a flick of the fingers. Perfect rev matching on the downshifts (for SMG only under hard braking or with a bit of heel and toe). Skip gear shifting.

And I TOTALLY disagree that better drivers can drive faster without it. There is no way that any driver can up and down shift as consistantly. Also until you have spent time with it on a track, you will not understand how much more time and concentration you have for threshold braking when you don't have to worry about the downshift also.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> You mean yo uNEVER get on the side roads taht are twisty? That you never run down to the Alps area?
> 
> If I ONLY ran on Autobahns, I would pick up an E38 7 series. Fast and comfarotable, but not a twisty killer.


Ah, you misunderstood me, I drive the twisties whenever it is possible. The Alpina is a joy to drive on the country roads. I even take the twisties when I drive to the Ring, instead of flying on the Autobahn 

As for the E38 7 Series, hmm, I think I made the right choice with the Alpina, except for the exotics and supercharged AMGs, there are very few opponents for me on the Autobahn.

Twisties are fun, but raw speed on the Autobahn is addicting as well.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Ah, you misunderstood me, I drive the twisties whenever it is possible. The Alpina is a joy to drive on the country roads. I even take the twisties when I drive to the Ring, instead of flying on the Autobahn
> 
> As for the E38 7 Series, hmm, I think I made the right choice with the Alpina, except for the exotics and supercharged AMGs, there are very few opponents for me on the Autobahn.
> 
> Twisties are fun, but raw speed on the Autobahn is addicting as well.


For raw speed, either tranny works fine. The only place SMG isn't better than a stick, is in off the line acceleration, and only here in the US. A Euro SMG should be just about as quick, and do it consistantly with just about any driver, unlike the stick.


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## HUMMM 3 (May 10, 2003)

Pinecone said:


> Have you spent time with one on the track? And realize we are not talking about the crappy system offered in the Z4, this is a discussion of SMG II in the M3, which is already a second generation system.
> 
> No it isn't a full out F1 system, but what system on a street car is? It works VERY well, quick shifts when called for. Less concentration and time used for downshifts. All good things on teh track.
> 
> ...


While at my last M Driving School in South Carolina, I got it from no less an authority than Bill Auberlin himself. He said there is no contest between the two transmissions, he would choose the SMG every time. In fact at the school he had a choice of manual or SMG and he drove the SMG. BTW I got to ride one fast lap with him....awesome!!


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

m3jlk said:


> While at my last M Driving School in South Carolina, I got it from no less an authority than Bill Auberlin himself. He said there is no contest between the two transmissions, he would choose the SMG every time. In fact at the school he had a choice of manual or SMG and he drove the SMG. BTW I got to ride one fast lap with him....awesome!!


Thanks, it is nice that Bill agrees with me. :thumbup: :rofl:


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