# Mixing R-comps on the same car.



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

I posted the same thread about a month ago on Bimmerforums. The general consensus is don't do it for track unless maybe for autoX. This past weekend at Buttonwillow track, I decided to mix RA-1s with Pilot Cups. To be honest, I wasn't really a fan of Toyo RA-1s. The blocky thread design just isn't very appealing compared to the Cups. But since RA-1s are race worthy, then hey, they must be good. Word has it that BimmerWorld shaves off the RA-1s 5/32s for race though.

The background story is this. I bought 4 pieces of 225/45/17 Cups back in July because I am sucker for Michelin. I wasted one of them when cording started to show on the outer thread. I ordered 2 pieces of 245/40/17 Cups and used these two as rears. So for a while I was driving with 225/45 fronts and 245/40 rears. And I have a 225/45 as a spare. Then some time ago, I flatspotted the front left 225/45. The spare was put to good use.

Then I came to my senses (no I-told-you-so routine please). Why not get _used_ RA-1s for track instead? Forget the Cups until maybe someday they might sponsor World Challenge.

Now it's the transition from Cups to RA-1 that has been bugging me for a while. Not wanting to sell the Cups, I decided to get an extra pair of track wheels and mounted two pieces of used RA-1s on them. Brought them to the track this past weekend as well. Why a pair? Well, should the stupid nut behind the steering wheel flatspot another front tire, he can swap both fronts from the same tire company. Luckily, track went well and I decided to mix the R-comps for fun today. I ran 235/40 RA-1s for the fronts and left the 245/40 Cups in the rears.

Verdict?

It's not that bad really although I think the real test should have been rears with RA-1s and fronts with Cups. Anyway, the RA-1s heated up way faster and screeched a lot more than the Cups. Car is still drive-able on track but with a slight oversteer than before. The steering is a tad bit sharper and more responsive. On the highway though, the RA-1s are noisier. I drove home with the "mix" setup.

So has anyone else mixed R-comps on the same car? Share your experiences.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

I've never mixed r-comps but have had the pleasure of driving mixed street tires which were staggered as well. Needless to say, the understeer was just absurd since 225 street tires just doesn't cut it for me. I think the 110 Phoenix heat also had a hand in the understeer. 

I'd rather not mix tires if I can avoid it.


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> But since RA-1s are race worthy, then hey, they must be good.


I think many people would disagree with this statement.

You found out why people don't like mixing r-comps: they stick differently, they break away differently, they heat up differently...


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

elbert said:


> I think many people would disagree with this statement.
> 
> You found out why people don't like mixing r-comps: they stick differently, they break away differently, they heat up differently...


Especially when you've got a tire like the PSC that doesn't heat up unless you thrash it combiend with a tire like the RA-1, which works pretty decently stone cold.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Why do you say that RA-1's not raceworthy? It's not like club racers are competing for anything other than a window sticker and pride. :angel:


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

SergioK said:


> Why do you say that RA-1's not raceworthy? It's not like club racers are competing for anything other than a window sticker and pride. :angel:


Sure they're raceworthy, but to call them "good" ...


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## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> This past weekend at Buttonwillow track, I decided to mix RA-1s with Pilot Cups.


You went again?!!! You lucky dawg.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

liuk3 said:


> You went again?!!! You lucky dawg.


Doesn't he have a permanent residence there?


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## Interlocker (Jun 27, 2003)

elbert said:


> Sure they're raceworthy, but to call them "good" ...


I can't help but to be curious... Why would you not consider the RA1s a "good" tire? I'll agree that they're not the fastest, but I have yet to run across a tire that's as predictable and exhibits the same longevity (both in total tire life and lap-after-lap consistency). For the racer on a budget, I don't think there's a better tire.

In a highly competitive class, of course, I can see someone wanting to spend the extra money for the dropped seconds here and there, but for the guys out there struggling to race in as many events as possible, I think the Toyos easily fall into the "good" category.

YMMV


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Interlocker said:


> I can't help but to be curious... Why would you not consider the RA1s a "good" tire? I'll agree that they're not the fastest, but I have yet to run across a tire that's as predictable and exhibits the same longevity (both in total tire life and lap-after-lap consistency). For the racer on a budget, I don't think there's a better tire.
> 
> In a highly competitive class, of course, I can see someone wanting to spend the extra money for the dropped seconds here and there, but for the guys out there struggling to race in as many events as possible, I think the Toyos easily fall into the "good" category.
> 
> YMMV


 Depends on the definition of "good." RA-1s don't feel all that different from street tires.

They also do in fact fall off big time through heat cycling.


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

Interlocker said:


> I can't help but to be curious... Why would you not consider the RA1s a "good" tire? I'll agree that they're not the fastest...


That's why, plus the sidewalls are much too soft (imo) (oops forgot inconsistent). So going back to what Mr.PS said:
- trackworthy? yes
- good? well, I'd say more like "decent" or "ok"

But overall I don't disagree with what you said.


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## Interlocker (Jun 27, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Depends on the definition of "good." RA-1s don't feel all that different from street tires.


I'd agree with that, in the sense that they're very forgiving and let go very progressively, much like a street tire. Of course, they've got quite a bit more grip than any street tire I've been on (most evident in transitions, not as evident during constant lateral loading, IMHO).



> They also do in fact fall off big time through heat cycling.


I guess that's where the "YMMV" comes in then, as I've never had a set of RA1s feel like they've fallen off. I can usually run mine right up until I start to see the nylon cords coming through, and only for that last weekend or two does the performance seem to fall off a little, but not that much. I've also run them for up to 2.5 hour stints in enduros without them ever falling off in performance. Mind you, those stints that I've driven that long have all been at night too, so heat was as much of a factor, but my codrivers that were out during daylight hours never had any issues.


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## spudsmc (Oct 18, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> They also do in fact fall off big time through heat cycling.


I'm not the typical RA1 user, but I'd say my experience is different. I use my RA1's for both track and autocross. My last set was only used exclusively for autocross and they were faster dead bald right before they corded than at any time during their use. Grip was way down when they were replaced with a newer shaved (4/32nds) set. I've taken to doing schools and track days on the newer sets and saving the almost bald ones for competition runs. I can't see it in my times, so I could be mistaken. :dunno:

Also, the racer guys (2) and instructors (2) that I've talked to claimed that they are good right to the cords.

To keep this slightly on topic, the only time that I've mixed sets is when I'd corded a front and replaced it with a fresh, shaved one of the same size. We were off the pace by .9 sec. on a 57 sec. course and 1.1 sec. on a 61 sec. course. It was an unhappy time due to that one tire.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

spudsmc said:


> I'm not the typical RA1 user, but I'd say my experience is different. I use my RA1's for both track and autocross. My last set was only used exclusively for autocross and they were faster dead bald right before they corded than at any time during their use. Grip was way down when they were replaced with a newer shaved (4/32nds) set. I've taken to doing schools and track days on the newer sets and saving the almost bald ones for competition runs. I can't see it in my times, so I could be mistaken. :dunno:
> 
> Also, the racer guys (2) and instructors (2) that I've talked to claimed that they are good right to the cords.
> 
> To keep this slightly on topic, the only time that I've mixed sets is when I'd corded a front and replaced it with a fresh, shaved one of the same size. We were off the pace by .9 sec. on a 57 sec. course and 1.1 sec. on a 61 sec. course. It was an unhappy time due to that one tire.


 Define good?

I found that once I REALLY got them all hot and melty they just never came back. I've used two sets down to the cord and they get downright fun (think wicked sideways action) once they get a few too many heat cycles in them.

I really don't like the way they handle, so I've been buying other tires since.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Guys, thanks for the input.

Elbert, "good" as in what pple told me. I should rephrase that to "..._should _ be good' not "_must _ be good". I am a noob with R-comps so I am still learning. I love the way PSCs handle but just too expensive to destroy on the track.  Plus they should really make a 235.

My track buddy, who attended the same event with me, has a fresh set of RA-1s. No heat cycling. No shaving. This was his second track event with the tires. He hated the RA-1s initially because they heat up way too fast but as the day progressed, the comps were more consistent.

On a similar note, has anyone tried the new Nitto NT-01s? Word has it that Toyo engineers designed the NT-01s. It might resemble the new Toyo R-comps.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> I found that once I REALLY got them all hot and melty they just never came back.


You can overheat any tire. I suppose it comes down to how much money you want to pour into tires but eventually, even the most expensive tire can get past the point of no return. You overheat your tires and that's simply what happens. It's learning to get them up to a certain temp and keep them their without driving the piss out of them that makes a good driver, and perhaps a good tire.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> He hated the RA-1s initially because they heat up way too fast but as the day progressed, the comps were more consistent.


 What do you mean they heated up way too fast? What tire was he on before?

I've used an R1-R (Trampio) and they were very predictable (and similar to the RA-1) but now that I've been using Dunlop R-comps, I kinda appreciate an Rcomp that warms up faster. The Dunlops take probably twice as long to get up to temp (a bit too slow for my taste).


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

:eeps: what is a soon to be RA-1 user to think? :eeps: :dunno:


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## Interlocker (Jun 27, 2003)

doeboy said:


> :eeps: what is a soon to be RA-1 user to think? :eeps: :dunno:


Worry not, young Padawan.  The discussion changed to the RA-1 being "race worthy." I don't think anyone would argue their effectiveness as an HPDE tire. I think the RA-1s are perfect for that. Perfect, I say!


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Interlocker said:


> Worry not, young Padawan.


:rofl: Master Interlocker is wise and skillful as always... 

Been watching Star Wars movies lately?


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

SergioK said:


> What do you mean they heated up way too fast? What tire was he on before?
> 
> I've used an R1-R (Trampio) and they were very predictable (and similar to the RA-1) but now that I've been using Dunlop R-comps, I kinda appreciate an Rcomp that warms up faster. The Dunlops take probably twice as long to get up to temp (a bit too slow for my taste).


I meant the heating _rate_ is higher for RA-1s. Cold 35. One session, hot 46. That is overheating IMO. Which is why I said, my Cups stayed at 40 hot and the RA-1s were at 46 hot. All started about 36 cold.

Or from another POV, I need to start RA-1 a few psi lower when cold.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Or from another POV, I need to start RA-1 a few psi lower when cold.


That's what I heard. You need to run certain R-Comps at much lower PSI. The Yoko A03R (soft) I was running gained between 8-10 PSI from cold to hot. At the end of the first day I had bled down the tire so that the next morning they read 31-32 psi cold but 40 PSI hot.

What your friend experienced isn't out of the range of standard operating temps for the Toyos.

Wait until you see what I get for free though...You may wet your pants and never go back to the other R-comps ever again.


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## elbert (Mar 28, 2002)

Interlocker said:


> The discussion changed to the RA-1 being "race worthy."


Actually, that _was_ the initial topic of discussion (I accidentally changed it "race worthy" to "track worthy" because I was thinking along those lines) :eeps:

They should be fine for driving schools. But I wonder if the car weight makes a difference regarding heat issues...



Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> But since RA-1s are race worthy, then hey, they must be good.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

SergioK said:


> You can overheat any tire. I suppose it comes down to how much money you want to pour into tires but eventually, even the most expensive tire can get past the point of no return. You overheat your tires and that's simply what happens. It's learning to get them up to a certain temp and keep them their without driving the piss out of them that makes a good driver, and perhaps a good tire.


 Believe it or not, under abusive driving conditions, I've found tht Hoosiers hold up one hell of a lot better than RA-1s.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> Wait until you see what I get for free though...You may wet your pants and never go back to the other R-comps ever again.


Hey, I know what you're getting for free. Hook a friend up. :eeps: See....these days, my new hobby is to collect R-comps and track wheels. That's how fanatic I am.

Btw to those who care...my blog for the latest event is up. Read the Nov 26/27 event. :thumbup:


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Believe it or not, under abusive driving conditions, I've found tht Hoosiers hold up one hell of a lot better than RA-1s.


Yup, I had the pleasure of watching one of the most experiened west coast BMW CCA club racers hold off a rookie club racer during a 30 min sprint race a couple years ago. The rookie was on Hoosiers, the chief was on old RA-1s. Yeah, the pricier tires were doing allot of work that day. Regardless, the chief won. :thumbup:


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## Interlocker (Jun 27, 2003)

SergioK said:


> Yup, I had the pleasure of watching one of the most experiened west coast BMW CCA club racers...


I remember that. It was a great race!


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Define good?
> 
> I found that once I REALLY got them all hot and melty they just never came back. I've used two sets down to the cord and they get downright fun (think wicked sideways action) once they get a few too many heat cycles in them.
> 
> I really don't like the way they handle, so I've been buying other tires since.


You just need to stop over driving them. 

The Spec Miata testing shows them to be very consistant over many heat cycles. That's why they picked them as a spec tire.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Actually, what I'm hearing is that the Hoosiers last longer at peak traction. They picked the RA-1s as the SM tire because Toyo put up way more money.

And we all know that peak traction is all that matters in Spec Miata.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Oh boy...did I push the car with RA-1s and Cups today.

Read about it.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

if you had the RA-1's on the rear that's no surprise


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Gosh...I thought pple don't read this thread anymore.

Thanks for the tip. The only thing that is preventing me from doing that is the 245-width Cups actually do rub the front fenders. I will be back there end of the month and give it a try anyhow.


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