# Like/dislike E60?



## my1stbmw (Oct 10, 2003)

lately i have been reading reviews and people's comments about the new E60 all over the internet. i have to admit that majority of people who dislike the new E60 already own another BMW (most of them E39).

now, why is this? 

to be completely honest here if i had purchased late model year E39 and i would have seen E60 i would have probably disliked it as well. i would look for any reason that i can find and try to trash the car. 
why, you ask? because i would have an E39 and E60 is already out! because E60 has better technology all around, looks fresh, unique. because i can not afford E60 right now since i have just bought my E39. because i like an E60 but i do not want to admit it to myself since i have an E39. who the heck knows?

i personally wouldn't listen to anything that these E39 owners have to say. They just do not seem to be very objective. 

That's all...


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## my1stbmw (Oct 10, 2003)

my1stbmw said:


> lately i have been reading reviews and people's comments about the new E60 all over the internet. i have to admit that majority of people who dislike the new E60 already own another BMW (most of them E39).
> 
> now, why is this?
> 
> ...


FYI: A local dealer had 13 E60's on the lot last weekend. Guess how many are there now? 1 (one) Mystic Blue 530i!!!

The point here is that if people wouldn't like the car they wouldn't buy it and certainly they (E60's) would not be selling this quick either.

Just wanted to give you little insight on how "shitty" the new E60 is.


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## nealh (Oct 4, 2003)

my1stbmw said:


> FYI: A local dealer had 13 E60's on the lot last weekend. Guess how many are there now? 1 (one) Mystic Blue 530i!!!
> 
> The point here is that if people wouldn't like the car they wouldn't buy it and certainly they (E60's) would not be selling this quick either.
> 
> Just wanted to give you little insight on how "shitty" the new E60 is.


I think your comments are a bit harsh..I saw pics of E60 before I bought my E39...I did not like the look of the exterior or interior at this time..does it mean forever..NO

I am sure like all new styles it will grow on me...the pics of the interior were my biggest disappointment as were the headlights but this is my personal opinion.

I am not saying it is a bad car or a BMW failure..(BTW the E39 when I first saw it was not desirable to me either)

I will say compared to the interior of an E39,A6, GS300 the E60 looks a bit cheap but this is my opinion not yours

Just so you know I could easily afford an E60(but why buy something I did not like and had not seen in person and was such a large redesign and will have glitches like any car in this situation)

Also I love the way my E39 looks , every time I look at it I love the styling...will I feel the E60 is more up to date in 6mo to yr probably but so what. I can only care if I still love getting to my car. I owned a 1996 A4 for 7yrs and only got rid of it because the AC was going to require a third very expensive repair...I loved that car every time i saw it and yes it was getting dated in its looks...

If I were BMW I would listen with an "objective ear" to any previous BMW owner as not everyone can afford these cars and I bet repeat buyers are a big part of there sales


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2003)

I do not own an E39. But I am someone who is considering going from my E36 M3 sedan to a larger BMW (read- 5-series). And upon seeing the E60, I realized that, if I'm going to stay with BMW, I'll end up buying a used E39. Nothing could convince me to buy that Pontiac looking atrocity. I couldn't care less what technological advances it might have over the E39. The E39 is impressive enough for me (and moer advanced than 98% of new cars on the road today, even as an outgoing model). There is no way I would plunk down that much money for a car that looks that shitty, inside and out. It's just awful. Hell, GM designers are doing better on the new Pontiacs than BMW did on this thing.

Ugh!


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

If I was in the market for a bigger, more expensive car than the 3er, with great driving dynamics, I'd be considering the E60 very seriously.

I like the exterior of the E60 more than the E39 exterior, though I haven't yet warmed up to the interior. The driver-centric interiors of both the E46 and E39 will be tough to beat, IMO.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Currently own an e46-- and I really WANT to like the e60. Although I don't need a car of its size right now-- I'd like to be able to look forward to getting a larger family sedan w/ great driving dynamics, and great looks both inside and out. The e60 fails so miserable in the sytling dept (both inside and out), that no matter how well the car drives (or how big a discount they eventually offer), I just wouldn't be able to stomach buying. I'm really not kidding that I wouldn't want an e60 even if it were free, could do 0-60 in 3 seconds and handled better than a LOtus Elise. That is how much I hate the interior and exterior. I'm not counting on "warming up to it" either- because I dislike the e65 and z4 even more than I did when they came out-- and I actually think the e60 is the worst of them all in terms of looks/cheapness. 

Basically, to me, BMW has caught the "GM curse" in terms of producing god-awful cheap interiors, and exterior styling that, while meant to be "aggressive or avant garde" ends up looking cheap and cheesy.

I studied an e60 on the street this weekedn-- saw one on my morning jog. I looked at it at different angles for about 15 minutes--and just could not come to terms with it. If it had been a Pontiac, I would've just winced and moved on--but I tried to give it a 2nd, 3rd and 4th chance. I really will never be able to understand how BMW can make such an awful looking car in this price range. Eventually, there WILL be LARGE discounts on this beast.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Every time there is a significant change in style from one model to the next, people who are self-declared enthusiasts for the marque will eventually do one of two things: Love it, or hate it.

If you read through forums like this, it sounds like the majority of current/outgoing BMW owners fall into the "hate it" category. If you talk to dealers, though, I think you'll hear something quite different. I'm one of the few 'festers who now claim to like the E60. I don't like the interior as much as the E39's, but I really like the exterior and I think BMW is still headed in the right direction.

:dunno: People like what they like. They also hate what they hate. I wouldn't mind owning an E60 one day, but honestly the thought doesn't make me happier than the thought of owning my '88 m3.


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## nealh (Oct 4, 2003)

one thing you can say for sure is people are passionate in there likes/dislikes

Also I noted most who have responded are not E39 owners....

Oh well to each his own..I am very happy will the look and feel of the E39(except the cheapest cupholders i have ever seen..one already broke after 3 mo)

I wish every new car owner a happy experience that is trouble free because IMHO ther is nothing worse than spend big $$$ for car and getting a lemon or crappy service...


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2003)

robg said:


> Currently own an e46-- and I really WANT to like the e60. Although I don't need a car of its size right now-- I'd like to be able to look forward to getting a larger family sedan w/ great driving dynamics, and great looks both inside and out. The e60 fails so miserable in the sytling dept (both inside and out), that no matter how well the car drives (or how big a discount they eventually offer), I just wouldn't be able to stomach buying. I'm really not kidding that I wouldn't want an e60 even if it were free, could do 0-60 in 3 seconds and handled better than a LOtus Elise. That is how much I hate the interior and exterior. I'm not counting on "warming up to it" either- because I dislike the e65 and z4 even more than I did when they came out-- and I actually think the e60 is the worst of them all in terms of looks/cheapness.
> 
> Basically, to me, BMW has caught the "GM curse" in terms of producing god-awful cheap interiors, and exterior styling that, while meant to be "aggressive or avant garde" ends up looking cheap and cheesy.
> 
> I studied an e60 on the street this weekedn-- saw one on my morning jog. I looked at it at different angles for about 15 minutes--and just could not come to terms with it. If it had been a Pontiac, I would've just winced and moved on--but I tried to give it a 2nd, 3rd and 4th chance. I really will never be able to understand how BMW can make such an awful looking car in this price range. Eventually, there WILL be LARGE discounts on this beast.


 I am now pretty sure that I'll pick up one of the last of the E39 M5s in 2 or 3 years to replace my M3/4.


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## SS (Dec 20, 2001)

my1stbmw said:


> lately i have been reading reviews and people's comments about the new E60 all over the internet. i have to admit that majority of people who dislike the new E60 already own another BMW (most of them E39).
> 
> now, why is this?
> 
> ...


Though I tend to compare the E60 to the E39 in many areas, I will state for the record that my comments on the E60 have been unbiased. Usually, when a new model comes out, I'm all over it...and like to "trade-up"!

That simply is not the case with the E60. At first, I thought the pix were hideous. Then, they began to grow on me a bit, and although I liked the E39 better (appearancewise), I liked the look of the E60. In person, I think the exterior looks "okay", but the interior does not rest too well on my stomach. Of course, the drive is absolutely amazing, and I have given appropriate reviews.

I am trying extremely hard to like the E60, but it's just not cutting it. I've opted to get the MBZ E500, and I'm dying for something to click that will compel me to purchase the less expensive, better performing, manual tranny (almost a must for me) BMW. However, I do not see that happening any time soon


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## my1stbmw (Oct 10, 2003)

i love the E39 design but it was getting old and needed to be replaced. E60 is a big step forward and i like it. 
E60 does NOT look like pontiac and i do not understand why people are saying that. it is DIFFERENT and just because you do not like it you don't have to say it looks like freaggin' pontiac. i'd rather drive a bicycle than any pontiac or anything that looks like one.

If i could make my own 5 series i would choose E60 exterior and E39 interior (or similar). don't get me wrong E60 interior is not THAT bad either, i just prefer E39 interior. the interior issue will not stop me from buying E60 though...


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2003)

my1stbmw said:


> i love the E39 design but it was getting old and needed to be replaced. E60 is a big step forward and i like it.
> E60 does NOT look like pontiac and i do not understand why people are saying that. it is DIFFERENT and just because you do not like it you don't have to say it looks like freaggin' pontiac. i'd rather drive a bicycle than any pontiac or anything that looks like one.
> 
> If i could make my own 5 series i would choose E60 exterior and E39 interior (or similar). don't get me wrong E60 interior is not THAT bad either, i just prefer E39 interior. the interior issue will not stop me from buying E60 though...


 Dude, it looks very much like a Pontiac.

Pontiac Grand Prix-









E60-


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## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

I drove one with the SP and Active steering - liked it a lot. The car cornered much better than an E39, even more so than the M5.... The active sway bar just cuts off all bodyroll, and does it so seemlessly. I loved it. The Active Steering is a great feature. At parking speeds, you don't need to shuffle which is very convenient. And at speed, it felt natural. Granted it took a bit of getting used to, but nothing odd or unnatural in terms of feel or feedback.

Looks and design are the problem for me though, and may prove to many customers as well. 

1. Look at the doors and overall side profile from an angle. There is no side molding and the doors stick outside. Drive it over a gravel road and see what gets kicked up from those huge 245 tires, or beg for door dings at a shopping mall...  

2. Looks are plain, just don't cut it as the great-looking E39 or E34 do. Even E28 (not exactly my favorite BMW design), still has a lot classier look.

3. Interior is weird, a controversial mix of quality and design. I just don't like the idea of having two dash "tunnels". Also, wood and aluminum accents don't really match well together. The steering wheel is nice though. i-Drive will never be my friend. Even radio adjustments are just too complicated. Not a good feature when you're concentrating on driving. The seats are very comfotable, much better than the E39, well made and wrapped with quality leather. But then you look up and see the ceiling: the quality went down, a cost-cutting cheap-feeling cloth.


:dunno:


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Plaz said:


> I like the exterior of the E60 more than the E39 exterior


 :thumbup:


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> Dude, it looks very much like a Pontiac.


Here we go again. No more like a Pontiac than previous models.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Thanks, Plaz, for doing that for me. 

Seriously. Give me any regular production car and I'll show you at least one much cheaper or more expensive car that "looks just like it." I don't care if it's a Honda or a Benz. If you can seriously look at an E60 and say that it looks like a Pontiac, then you need to get your eyes checked.


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## my1stbmw (Oct 10, 2003)

TD said:


> Dude, it looks very much like a Pontiac.
> 
> Pontiac Grand Prix-
> 
> ...


PONTIAC has that "blow up" plastic look that BMW does not have! I hope that makes sense...

Sorry, but i do not think E60 looks like PONTIAC.


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## nealh (Oct 4, 2003)

my1stbmw said:


> PONTIAC has that "blow up" plastic look that BMW does not have! I hope that makes sense...
> 
> Sorry, but i do not think E60 looks like PONTIAC.


I hate to say it but I like the look of the Pontiac better....not that I would consider buying it

Also the Pontiac was out first what does that mean..Bangle used it as a template..LOL just kidding

The trunk line and headlights hurt the car..the side view would be so much nice if they just smoothed that over a bit...


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## my1stbmw (Oct 10, 2003)

Plaz said:


> Here we go again. No more like a Pontiac than previous models.


Perfect example. thank you!!!


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## my1stbmw (Oct 10, 2003)

Jetfire said:


> Thanks, Plaz, for doing that for me.
> 
> Seriously. Give me any regular production car and I'll show you at least one much cheaper or more expensive car that "looks just like it." I don't care if it's a Honda or a Benz. If you can seriously look at an E60 and say that it looks like a Pontiac, then you need to get your eyes checked.


well said!!! thank you very much!


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

I now find the E60's interior to be less inviting and warm than the E39. Even with similar materials, the E60's cabin space feels somewhat distant and cold to me. I've always thought the exterior looked decent, and that hasn't changed.


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## kc5 (Aug 9, 2004)

"my1stbmw," with all due respect, you are so wrong in your generalized assumptions. I intentionally traded my '99 E39 for an "03 E39 once I saw the E60. I wanted the last of the "good ones." The first time that I saw an E39, I had lust in my heart for it; my first impressions of the E60 were of horror. While the E60's exterior has grown on me (its interior never will), I do not suffer from E60 envy. If, God forbid, something were to happen to my E39, I would probably not get an E60. In the end, it's too bad that BMW's styling direction has created such polarization amongst us BMW enthusiasts.


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## Centurion (Jan 16, 2005)

kc5 said:


> In the end, it's too bad that BMW's styling direction has created such polarization amongst us BMW enthusiasts.


That it has indeed!


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## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

I keep hearing changing the radio station is too complicated with the I-drive. If you own the car, you can always set the preset and just change it via the steering wheel. I don't see a problem with that at all and don't find it all that complicated.

As for the Pontiac comparison, I see where people are coming from. Both have kidney grills... The 5er will always look more elegant because the design is better executed. If you look at the side from a 3/4 angle, you can't possibly tell me that the Pontiac is better. Right now, BMW is making has the best combination of aggressivness, elegance and avant-garde at the same time.

PS. BMW will be known as pioneering the I-drive. ALthough the first one (in the 7) was too complicated,the later versions are the way to go. In a few years, I'm going to be constantly repeating "I told you so..."


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## MMMM_ERT (Mar 13, 2004)

The E60 lost the BMW "identity"....it looks Japanese now (not that theres anything wrong with Japanese car styling).

I recognize previous gen BMWs easily...the new 5 and 7 series just blend in with everything else on the road.  

I thought after two years of seeing the new 5 it would grow on me. It doesn't and I doubt it ever will. 

At the SD and LA autoshow..they had an 02 530i on display promoting the CPO program....that 7 year old design looked sharper and classier than everything else new they had displayed. I do love the 3-series 330/M3 and the new 6-series. :thumbup: 

I tell you what though...I could very easily get past the styling if someone gave me a new E60 M5.  

Anyone care to oblige? :angel:


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## BMW528i_Bilal (Jan 17, 2005)

*The New E60 looks good, but not better than the E39*

The New E60 looks good, but not better than the E39. The E60 looks cheap infront of a E39, exterior and interior. I hope BMW goes back to the drawing board. :thumbdwn:


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## BMW528i_Bilal (Jan 17, 2005)

*True say !*



kc5 said:


> "my1stbmw," with all due respect, you are so wrong in your generalized assumptions. I intentionally traded my '99 E39 for an "03 E39 once I saw the E60. I wanted the last of the "good ones." The first time that I saw an E39, I had lust in my heart for it; my first impressions of the E60 were of horror. While the E60's exterior has grown on me (its interior never will), I do not suffer from E60 envy. If, God forbid, something were to happen to my E39, I would probably not get an E60. In the end, it's too bad that BMW's styling direction has created such polarization amongst us BMW enthusiasts.


I think the next time I decide to buy a new 5 series, i will have to go with a 2003 model "the last of the good ones", I can never see myself owning an E60. Look to cheesy, if i want a car that looks like that, i'd spend half the money and buy a Pontiac Grand Prix. I hate to say this but the Grand Prix looks better than the E60. :tsk:


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## Brett530 (Jan 26, 2005)

I have a hard time liking the E60 but I'll keep trying.
I think the main issue people are trying to articulate is that many BMW owners like owning a timeless head-turning car. The Camaro SS, 66 Mustang, 71 Cuda are examples of cars that still look good after decades. The E39 is in that same category. In 20 years people will still be commenting on how nice the E39 looks. It is a classic design. Bold but not over-stated. While only time can tell, the E60 looks trendy rather than classic. So many organic bubble cars have come and gone and I'm affraid that the Germans are moving in the same direction as some of the Japanese car designs. They are trying to guess the future of auto styling. So far, none of the other auto manufacturers (Ponitac, not withstanding) are making an attemp to copy the styling. A bad omen, since the E39 is one of the most copied cars out there. If BMW relizes they guessed wrong, and moves back to a more classic style, the E60 will always be an ugly duckling. A risk to consider.


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## LA525iT (Oct 27, 2003)

my1stbmw said:


> because i can not afford E60 right now since i have just bought my E39.


Maybe in Irvine you are all over-leveraged on those POS pre-fab houses you live in, but you make an absolutely absurd assumption. I drive my beater Integra as much as I drive my E39, and it's certainly no reflection of my net worth or liquid assets.


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## dakoowa (Dec 12, 2003)

I've had my 2004 545i now for 13 months, I can honestly say I've never had a better car in my life. It is still just as much fun/refreshing to drive today as it was the day I picked it up at the dealer.

Keep in mind, I'm a serious car enthusiast. However, I don't mod my cars like a lot of people do.....the higher end luxury cars I purchase I keep "100% stock". I know a lot of people love the E39 because they tinker with it, but I consider such modding blasphemy!

But anyways, I remember when the new E500 MB designs came out in 2001 my father (a longtime MB fanatic) HATED the new design. He thought it was too rounded, too MODERN, looked tacky etc etc.

Now, here we are 5 years later and what is he driving? A brand new 2005 E500........and he absolutely loves it. I have mentioend to him how much he hated the look just 4 years ago and he simply stated it "grew" on him.

Some people are just slower to adapt to change, especially after they've made significant investments in a previous model of the same car. Give it some time, MB and BMW have always set the high end design trends for cars YEARS in advance. Not sure if you guys have been BMW owners long enough to remember but in 93-95 when the new BMW models started rolling out (which are your beloved E39s), BMW enthusiasts were OUTRAGED. SERIOUSLY outraged. The change was just as drastic from the E39 to the E60.

So to put it succinctly, that E39 you're in love with today for it's "styling finesse" "class" and "elegance" was considered "too japanese", "too tacky" etc in 95 by previous BMW model owners.

Move on, get over it...........it will never change back. If you really dislike it that much buy a new Benz. Just drive what you love, but for the love of god if you can afford it dump that old model! Half the fun of driving these great high prices vehicles is the exhiliration of the new technology and the "cutting edge" feel. The design/technology/and everything about the E60 is cutting-edge......it's a pleasure to drive.

I've driven pretty much every high end BMW/MB over the past 10 years whether it be through my father or on the past 5 years my own purchases, and I can state flatly NOTHING has driven better than my 545i, and also NOTHING has compared to the roomy interior/comfort of the 545 as well!

I realize the interior isn't for everyone, but I have actually found it impeccably designed. Hell I even love the i-Drive system! It completely negated the need for a complicated baseboard to separate the driver's passengers seats. I think it's pretty neat........and when you combine that vibe with the two-toned brown/black interior........WOW nothing better!

Stop complaining and go have fun driving. If you love your E39 great, just keep in mind thousands of people love their E60s, and this is the same cycle of complaints/praise that occurs after every major release of a new model Benz or Beemer. BMW has their biggest sales year EVER last year, so if anything the design is only going to move in the direction you guys are complaining about even faster.

Get with the times, or just accept maybe you've become a bit dated in your tastes. It's not a big deal, just a lot of people aren't in to modern art.......and BMWs have always been very much into that sort of vibe.


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## heezyo2o (Mar 23, 2004)

^^ nice post


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## mojosaan (Feb 24, 2004)

*All cars are gonna begin to look the same*

With the amount of models on the road and how fast new models ae upgraded, cars are bound to start to look alike unless someone goes out of the box, which is always a gamble. I like the way BMW is going with their cars. However, I will qualify that with the fact that I've only gotten into BMW's since 2002. I don't know what the problem is with the interior of the E60 vs. the older model. But I guess the old saying holds true: Opinion's are like a-holes, everyone's got one.

By the way, I love the way the 545i drive with SP. Very nice and smooth.


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## Tahoe (Jan 9, 2004)

Okay, I'll weigh in here. 

I don't like the styling of the E60. I doubt that it will ever "grow on me". I do not secretly covet it or envy it's owners. I, also, have tried and I just don't like the plain, generic look of it. I don't like the garish headlights or the plain, un aggressive kidney grill, or the dull slab sides or the flow of the rear of the car. The interior denies me the "Ultimate Driving Machine" cockpit I look for in a BMW. 

It may be the best sedan on the road to drive and that is terrific but as important as that is, and it is very important to me, I still need to be able to stand back and have the appearance bring a smile to my face. The E60 doesn't come close to doing that for me. 

Some cars are beautiful or attractive right from the start and some are not. It shouldn't have to grow on me. Of the 5s the E12 was, and still is a beautiful car in my eye. The E28 not so much. The E34 was okay and the E39 wowed me from day one. I didn't like the first pics of the E60 and when I have had chances to look at it up close and personal I still just shake my head. The the original 6 series was a show stopper from the start and is still a beautiful car. The brand new M6 floors me it is so beautiful. 

Yes, I drive BMWs (and have driven them constantly since 1984) because they are 1. a practice sedan, 2. a high performance automobile, 3. well built, and 4. stylish in a classy subtly aggressive way. All of those points are important to me. 

Since I hold onto my BMWs for a number of years I will keep my E39 for a while and hope that the future replacement of the E60 appeals to me a lot more because I can't imagine not owning a BMW.


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## dakoowa (Dec 12, 2003)

Tahoe,

You literally sound exactly like my father when the new Benz came out in 2k1, give it 3 years you'll probably be driving one by then (unless you hold on to cars for a long time, I tend to buy new ones every 4 years or so). However, you need to keep in mind you simply may have surpassed the "design threshold". Seriously, there are older people (i'm guessing you're at least 45+ years old based on your post/year quotes) who simply don't like the newer modern designs.

It's not a bad thing at all, just a matter of evolutionary tastes. Many people don't like progressive rock music and prefer rock from the 70s, you may have just found your niche and don't wish to push the envelop and further. If you like the older school BMWs good for you, but you have to realize what you are labeling cheap/gaudy etc are very attractive to many of a younger (and older more progressive!) crowd.

Like I said before BMW had it's largest sales year ever last year by 23% if I remember reading it correctly on the front page of this site, and the new models made up the vast majority of those profits. The 3 is going over to an extremely similar design next year so now's the time to decide if you like BMWs any longer. The design isn't going anywhere, same thing people eventually came to accept back when the E39 design was introduced in the mid 90s. Seriously I remember it like it was yesterday, people complained that the car looked too much like a Honda Accord, too japanese, design blasphemy blah blah. Same stuff you're saying. No idea if those people bought one of those BMWs or moved on to a new brand, but BMW is alive and well 10 years later so I suspect they did.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

:stupid: 

dakoowa :bow: Very nicely put :thumbup:


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## Centurion (Jan 16, 2005)

dakoowa said:


> Tahoe,
> 
> You literally sound exactly like my father when the new Benz came out in 2k1, give it 3 years you'll probably be driving one by then (unless you hold on to cars for a long time, I tend to buy new ones every 4 years or so). However, you need to keep in mind you simply may have surpassed the "design threshold". Seriously, there are older people (i'm guessing you're at least 45+ years old based on your post/year quotes) who simply don't like the newer modern designs.
> 
> ...


Regarding the "largest sales year ever last year by 23%"...
It would be interesting to learn the number of Z4's, 5's, and 7-series sold (only interested in the models with the new body change), what percentage of those sales are first-time BMW owners, and what the average age of those buyers are. Granted, the 3-series still remains to be the best selling model BMW has in their fleet but should not be included in this statistic because it has not undergone the new body change.

The main point in your post is the same idea I've been stating. In addition, I went further to describe how most people do not like change. When we've become use to the way something works, the way something feels, the way something looks then anything else is just awkward or "wrong".
Now think about this...if BMW had introduced the Bangle 5 or 7 as a different model (i.e. 9 and 10 series respectively) do you really think you would have the same opinions about these cars as you do now?
That's human nature I guess.


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## neurom (Jan 16, 2005)

You can find the sales statistics in this forum. If it wasn't for the X3, BMW sales would have been down 11%, instead of up 6%. 

Other facts from sales figures

5 series sales
2004-45,584
2003-46,964 (I think the 5 series was not being produced during the last few months, so the decline of 2.9% from 2003 to 2004 is probably underestimated. Correct me if I am wrong, but the last E39 was produced in July 2003 and the first 5 in the first few months of 2004, so this decline is an underestimation)

7 series sales (much worse)

2004-16,155
2003-20,473

Decline of 21.1%-horrible

Yet BMW advertises the 7 as the most succesful 7 series ever. What are they putting in their coffee over there in Jersey?

I am considering either a 7 or 5 series, even after horrendous experiences with a previous first year BMW model. I am looking for solid evidence in this forum that either the 5 or 7 series are reliable cars (actually, I am hoping, because I love the car, reliability issues aside), because I am too busy to deal with even minor, but frequent nuisances, regardless of how the car drive, which is what attracts me to it. What I see here in these posts from current owners reminds me of the LA Clippers cheerleaders (if they have them). I guess the truth is in the eye of the beholder, but if we are going to quote data, lets at least make sure that we are not guessing. It does not do anyone any good.


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## wheel-man (Sep 28, 2004)

I like how the E60 looks. That is all, carry on.


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## Centurion (Jan 16, 2005)

neurom said:


> I am considering either a 7 or 5 series, even after horrendous experiences with a previous first year BMW model. I am looking for solid evidence in this forum that either the 5 or 7 series are reliable cars (actually, I am hoping, because I love the car, reliability issues aside), because I am too busy to deal with even minor, but frequent nuisances, regardless of how the car drive, which is what attracts me to it.


Avoid the 2002 (maybe even early '03) models of the e65 due to reliability issues abound. However, if you prefer the look of the current 7-series, you should be able to get a decent deal right now on a '04. The new model with the mild upgrades to front/rear-end lights and bumpers is being scheduled for release in the latter half of the year.
The e60 has had none of the reliability issues of the e65, most of which were related to the i-Drive system...and, I almost forgot, the e60 with the SP feels great!


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

neurom said:


> You can find the sales statistics in this forum. If it wasn't for the X3, BMW sales would have been down 11%, instead of up 6%.
> 
> Other facts from sales figures
> 
> ...


You beat me to it, I knew I read that the sales of the 5 series and 7 series had declined but I couldn't remember where. Just looking around, I see much more new E classes than I see E60's because they look better. I am a young guy, 23 years old, and I hate the E60. :thumbdwn: The E65 is ok, it has grown on me, but the new 645 is amazing. I must give Bangle credit for the 645, it is a work of art. I was planning on keepng my 540 for a couple more years but I don't think I can resist the 645. If you guys like the way the 545 drives don't test drive the 645 because you all will be taking losses and trading in those ugly 545's for a beautiful masterpiece, the 645. It drives just as good if not better in my opinion and it looks about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times better than the E60. :rofl: Better yet, maybe I'll get the M6 in three years. :thumbup:


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

dakoowa said:


> Tahoe,
> 
> You literally sound exactly like my father when the new Benz came out in 2k1, give it 3 years you'll probably be driving one by then (unless you hold on to cars for a long time, I tend to buy new ones every 4 years or so). However, you need to keep in mind you simply may have surpassed the "design threshold". Seriously, there are older people (i'm guessing you're at least 45+ years old based on your post/year quotes) who simply don't like the newer modern designs.


I've never quite understood the "resistance is futile" line of thinking. I kept my E36 for eight years because I didn't think that much of the first E46 - I even bought another car in the meantime, but kept the E36. And I know plenty of folks who don't really want to have to drive around in winter with all four windows going up and down by themselves, or go out and get a degree in computer science so they can operate an E60 dashboard, or take the car into the dealer every quarter for scheduled software updates.

If BMW could improve reliability then perhaps we could think more about accepting the new design language for what it is. I do hope the E90 is better in this respect. But if all these bold forward steps into the future of design come with a car that is more or less just a pain in in the ass to own, then lots of us won't want to know :dunno:.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

dagoo98 said:


> You beat me to it, I knew I read that the sales of the 5 series and 7 series had declined but I couldn't remember where. Just looking around, I see much more new E classes than I see E60's because they look better. I am a young guy, 23 years old, and I hate the E60. :thumbdwn: The E65 is ok, it has grown on me, but the new 645 is amazing. I must give Bangle credit for the 645, it is a work of art.


Why not give Adrian van Hooydonk the credit instead? He designed it


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Centurion said:


> The e60 has had none of the reliability issues of the e65, most of which were related to the i-Drive system...and, I almost forgot, the e60 with the SP feels great!


I must protest . UK BMW dealers continue to report chronic software problems with new 5ers built in 2003, some of which have resulted in unsaleable cars being bought back and returned to the factory so they can figure out exactly how they managed to build so many faults into one car. Later cars are better, but the whole "Hubble" thing is wearing the patience of the British BMW community, at least.

Also the UK-tuned 5er Sport model (which is different to the US version) has been raked over the coals for its dismal ride and poor handling (a BMW with poor handling? Something *is* wrong) on less-than-perfect roads. The 5er persists with run-flat tyres, which would be fine if the engineers had configured the suspension around them. But they haven't, so...


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## gold233790 (Dec 8, 2004)

*I like*

As an '05 530i driver, I must say I like the new look. I loved the E39 look as well, and think that unlike almost every other previous model car on the road, it remains current and beautiful.

I didn't love the new look at first, but it grew on me quickly. I owned a '93 Grand Cherokee, and hated that look too when it came out. Now, previous versions look absolutely boxey.

Now......I think the E39 was nicer looking during it's heyday than the E60 is now. That being said, the E39 feels "old school" to me. I love the tech toys. I love the larger back seat, the larger trunk. And I believe that had BMW kept the same or similar look, the 5 would have been seen eventually as tired.

I've driven both, and quite frankly love 'em both from the driving characteristic standpoint. Had there been any difference there, it would be a huge issue. But they feel about the same to this untrained driver.

My assessment- I like the styling, love the car. Heck, I love the styling of the Hyundai Santa Fe, but doubt I would like the car at all!


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## dakoowa (Dec 12, 2003)

It's fine that you guys dislike the E60 so much, just realize there are thousands of people happily driving them. I liked the E39 for its time, but I've decided to move on to what I consider bigger and better.

Sitting around bashing something you don't like for whatever reason is fine..........but I suggest you just buy another car. If you were considering buying a new 545, that's great, we can afford prtty much any car we want. So just go find another car and realize you're beating a dead horse.

We're going on almost 2 years now......live and let die.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

andy_thomas said:


> Why not give Adrian van Hooydonk the credit instead? He designed it


I thought Bangle finally got something right, I should have known better. :dunno: Anyway, cheers to Adrian Van Hooydonk. :thumbup:


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

gold233790 said:


> As an '05 530i driver, I must say I like the new look. I loved the E39 look as well, and think that unlike almost every other previous model car on the road, it remains current and beautiful.
> 
> I didn't love the new look at first, but it grew on me quickly. I owned a '93 Grand Cherokee, and hated that look too when it came out. Now, previous versions look absolutely boxey.
> 
> ...


Mercedes E-class kept a change their look but managed to keep similarities to its predecessors. I would much rather the E500 over the 545 because it kept its European heritage. The new E60 looks like a mix between a japanese car and an american car. The prestige is gone from the E60, but don't worry the E64 645 is more than making up for it.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

dakoowa said:


> It's fine that you guys dislike the E60 so much, just realize there are thousands of people happily driving them. I liked the E39 for its time, but I've decided to move on to what I consider bigger and better.
> 
> Sitting around bashing something you don't like for whatever reason is fine..........but I suggest you just buy another car. If you were considering buying a new 545, that's great, we can afford prtty much any car we want. So just go find another car and realize you're beating a dead horse.
> 
> We're going on almost 2 years now......live and let die.


Do you realize the topic of this thread?  If you wish to not talk about the topic don't take part in the thread. You enter a thread to tell people to stop talking about the topic of the thread, that makes no sense.

By the way, if you have space in your garage test drive a 645, I can't stop talking about that car. :thumbup:


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## dakoowa (Dec 12, 2003)

dagoo98 said:


> Do you realize the topic of this thread?  If you wish to not talk about the topic don't take part in the thread. You enter a thread to tell people to stop talking about the topic of the thread, that makes no sense.
> 
> By the way, if you have space in your garage test drive a 645, I can't stop talking about that car. :thumbup:


I did, my wife wants to buy one for herself.


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## LeucX3 (Dec 26, 2001)

BMW had huge shoes to fill when redesigning its 3, 5 and 7 series cars. To me so far they're 0 for 2. From what i've seen of the e90, they might be 0.5 for 3. The previous generation 3/5/7 were soooo good (prefacelift e46) the best thing they could have done is to leave them alone, but that wouldn't have been possible.

If i were in the market for a car like the e60, i'd end up with an Audi A6.


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## Centurion (Jan 16, 2005)

LeucX3 said:


> If i were in the market for a car like the e60, i'd end up with an Audi A6.


Are you referring to their newest body design with the "Nuvo" (or something like that) front grill?


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## LeucX3 (Dec 26, 2001)

Centurion said:


> Are you referring to their newest body design with the "Nuvo" (or something like that) front grill?


Yep, i actually like the sabertooth look on that one.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

dakoowa said:


> I did, my wife wants to buy one for herself.


Funny, this car is causing an epidemic. My aunt calls me, she has a 530, told me last night she chased a car on the highway because it was so nice. Guess what, it was a 645 convertible! :thumbup: She's going to the dealership Saturday to test drive it, she said if they have a color she likes on the lot she's driving it home Saturday. The funny thing is she's not even into cars like that, a year ago she told me she was going to keep the 530 until it starts to give her problems. So much for that idea.


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## dakoowa (Dec 12, 2003)

dagoo98 said:


> Funny, this car is causing an epidemic. My aunt calls me, she has a 530, told me last night she chased a car on the highway because it was so nice. Guess what, it was a 645 convertible! :thumbup: She's going to the dealership Saturday to test drive it, she said if they have a color she likes on the lot she's driving it home Saturday. The funny thing is she's not even into cars like that, a year ago she told me she was going to keep the 530 until it starts to give her problems. So much for that idea.


I shall have the best of both worlds to drive, a 645 and a 545. ^_^

645s are very "female" though, so i'll stick to the 545 and take the 645 for a spin now and again.


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## fricas (Sep 21, 2004)

*arrrrrrrgh*

I hate the design of e60. I am an architect and I prefer classic style, especially old BMW's, like e34, e30 or old 628csi. BMW was known for their classic and subtile design. Some of the new BMW's are becoming very similar to Japan tuned craps (I hate them).
As you see, I have 3 BMWs, but i like e34 most. Those round headlights look very good. Since this model looks quite dated, but I think it was golden age of BMW design.
Some people think that someone who don't like e60's cannot afford it. I could afford 10 or more e60 without a problem, but I just don't like it. I am planning to change my 740 to another armoured BMW, perhaps L7 (not new 7 series, I hate it too) or old 750il (round headlights).


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## Centurion (Jan 16, 2005)

LeucX3 said:


> Yep, i actually like the sabertooth look on that one.


Saw one yesterday in Sherman Oaks, CA. A dark gray color. Her rear-end looks nice  
But when she smiles, she's got a grill like Austin Powers.


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## Centurion (Jan 16, 2005)

dagoo98 said:


> Funny, this car is causing an epidemic. My aunt calls me, she has a 530, told me last night she chased a car on the highway because it was so nice. Guess what, it was a 645 convertible! :thumbup: She's going to the dealership Saturday to test drive it, she said if they have a color she likes on the lot she's driving it home Saturday. The funny thing is she's not even into cars like that, a year ago she told me she was going to keep the 530 until it starts to give her problems. So much for that idea.


Sounds like she may "intentionally" begin to abuse the 530 to put a rush order on the mechanical problems. :rofl:

Some advice for her? Tell her to drain the oil pan and pour Vodka in her gas tank.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

dakoowa said:


> I shall have the best of both worlds to drive, a 645 and a 545. ^_^
> 
> 645s are very "female" though, so i'll stick to the 545 and take the 645 for a spin now and again.


How is the 645 very female? Is it because it's actually a good looking car? So I suppose the M6 will be a very female car too.


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## dagoo98 (Apr 23, 2004)

Centurion said:


> Sounds like she may "intentionally" begin to abuse the 530 to put a rush order on the mechanical problems. :rofl:
> 
> Some advice for her? Tell her to drain the oil pan and pour Vodka in her gas tank.


 :rofl: :rofl:


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