# When your car is off....manual drivers, park in gear?



## v33_n0d3 (Mar 21, 2007)

Manual users - when you turn your car off and (hopefully) pull the e-brake, do you leave the car in gear? Are there any adverse effects if you do or do not leave it in gear?

I usually do. When the car is parked uphill I leave it in reverse, as I imagine it can't be too good for the engine to turn backwards. What about you guys?


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## NoMercy346 (Jan 13, 2009)

When I drive manuals I rarely leave them in gear. On very steep inclines yes and always in 1st. 
1 - The engine wont turn backwards because it wont turn at all. Isnt that the reason one leaves it in gear in the first place?
2 - Even if it did I dont believe it has any negative effects on your engine.

In theory you should always leave it in gear for safety reasons but I don't really care as I mostly park on flat surfaces with handbrake only.


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## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

Out of habit I always leave the eBrake on and put the shifter in first, hill or not. On a hill, I generally make sure the car is held firm by the ebrake before I let the clutch out, but I still leave it in first gear as a backup.


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## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

I put the car in 1st gear, I only use the ebrake if I'm on an incline.


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## 1972ford (Jun 5, 2009)

KrisL said:


> I put the car in 1st gear, I only use the ebrake if I'm on an incline.


^^^ what he said, unless I back into the space I park in, then I leave it in reverse. ebrake only if it's steep... the first 3 or 4 cars I had were all manual and none had working ebrakes.

that being said, I have parked my truck on a hill w/o ebrake and found that it was slowly moving downhill, one revolution of the engine at a time (parked in 2nd) - oops! A quick shift into 1st solved that...


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

First gear and e-brake....


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## Jakked (Feb 6, 2009)

e-brake only in the garage,

e-brake and 1st for any other time


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## cmybimmer (Sep 16, 2008)

only put it on gear when on an incline. I almost never keep it in gear anywhere else because i tend to forget its in gear and try to start the car with it leaping forward. Quite embarrassing if you ask me 

Rather put wear on my brakes than my drivetrain.


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## TRS550 (Jan 2, 2010)

In 1st gear and e brake on.

Hard to change a 33 year old habit.


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## akhbhaat (Apr 29, 2003)

krisl said:


> i put the car in 1st gear, i only use the ebrake if i'm on an incline.


+1


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## mrg325i (May 20, 2009)

I only use the hand brake on inclines. All other times I use first gear.
GM e-brakes did not always hold. Ford held most of the time.
I have had e-brakes stick which makes it hard to move the car.


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## KatanaPilot (Mar 25, 2003)

Always in 1st gear and hand brake on....

I've read about several MINIs rolling away with hand brake on only.... Apparently as the brakes cool down, the hand brake loses its grip.... so just to be safe, always a hard pull on the handbrake, and leave the gear in 1st.


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## TheodoreM (Oct 2, 2009)

Fast Bob said:


> First gear and e-brake....


+1, brake and clutch must be depressed to start car, so no accidental lurching forward.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

i do it in this order every time:
1) car stopped, pull brake
2) let weight settle against the parking brake
3) with full weight on parking brake and car off, push in clutch and set in 1st or R, depending on incline.


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## 6 Brit (Jan 19, 2009)

always an e-brake...put it in 2nd if I am on a hill

I think someone told me a long time ago second gear was a stronger gear so I have always left it in second since (whether it's true or not) just out of habit


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

My ex had a bad habit of leaving her 2002tii in nuetral w/brake on. Our drive was slanted down hill and one afternoon I heard a "pop" and saw the car roll by...knocked open the gate, took out 6 expensive shrubs and finally came to rest inches from a severe drop-off. No damage, but she learned a lesson. The nursery replaced the shrubs "under warranty", figure that one out.


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## Vanos4:12PM (Apr 20, 2007)

engine off - then put in neutral, apply foot brake (if on big enough) hill - hand brake on, foot off of brake so weight is on brakes - then put in 1st gear for fail safe. Same procedure I do if hill or no hill. Just habit after driving manny's for 20+ years.


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## mawana (Nov 15, 2006)

Always in reverse, except on an incline when I also engage the e-brake!


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

I engage the handbrake (always regardless of vehicle/transmission) and engage 1st if on a hill. However, more often than not, I leave it in N.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

6 Brit said:


> always an e-brake...put it in 2nd if I am on a hill
> 
> I think someone told me a long time ago second gear was a stronger gear so I have always left it in second since (whether it's true or not) just out of habit


Nope....*first* gear provides the most resistance to rolling (because it has the most gear multiplication working for it)


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

cmy_bimmer said:


> only put it on gear when on an incline. I almost never keep it in gear anywhere else because i tend to forget its in gear and try to start the car with it leaping forward. Quite embarrassing if you ask me
> 
> Rather put wear on my brakes than my drivetrain.


WTF are you smokin`, boy ????????????????


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## 6 Brit (Jan 19, 2009)

Fast Bob said:


> Nope....*first* gear provides the most resistance to rolling (because it has the most gear multiplication working for it)


hmmmm :dunno:

I will do that from now on when I drive the s2k...not like I am ever allowed to do that unless it's dying in the backyard


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## cmybimmer (Sep 16, 2008)

Fast Bob said:


> WTF are you smokin`, boy ????????????????


:str8pimpi


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

TRS550 said:


> In 1st gear and e brake on.
> 
> Hard to change a 33 year old habit.


Ditto, except I had to change my habit. To pass the driving test, I had to re-learn to leave the car in neutral. :yikes:

There is a very rigid sequence of clutch, gear and e-brake positions you have to learn to pass the UK driving test.

For example, pulling over and stopping must be done as shown in this video:

http://www.driving-test-success.com/stopping/stopping.html


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## Dad's Toy (Nov 14, 2009)

e-brake & in 1st gear. won't hurt the car and just may save it from rolling into something if on a hill.


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## mawana (Nov 15, 2006)

Okay, it seems I'm only one who use the reverse gear - don't know who taught me to but I have done that for years and to pretty much every car I have owned. Am I missing something?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

I use R when the front of the car is downhill relative to the rear


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

First gear and E-Brake for me. Always.


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## jmpeace501 (Dec 7, 2009)

here's what I do:

when parking in my garage or other completely level surfaces: e-brake only

when parking on an uphill: e-brake, turn car off, remove key, put in 1st gear

when parking on a downhill: e-brake, turn care off, remove key, put in reverse

and i do the two last things if either hill is steep enough to where the car would move at all either by itself or with a slight push if it were only in neutral.


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## peripherique (Jan 18, 2009)

I always use e-brake & leave car in first or reverse gear depending on parking location.


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

E-brake and if I feel the car settle into the brake (move forward or backward) I also put it in first. 

Never put it in gear in the garage in case someone decides to start the car, forgets the gear is in and pops the clutch. I'd hate to push the car into the living room. 

My dad parks his car outside and usually uses just the gear during winter to prevent the brake from freezing shut, but to be honest, I have never heard of anyone having their parking brake frozen preventing them from driving off. :dunno:


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## vexed (Dec 22, 2001)

cwinter said:


> My dad parks his car outside and usually uses just the gear during winter to prevent the brake from freezing shut, but to be honest, I have never heard of anyone having their parking brake frozen preventing them from driving off. :dunno:


I confess that happened to me many years ago, when I told my Dad he laughed and said that's why he did not use the ebrake in the winter.

I am in the first gear ebrake camp, old habits are hard to break.


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

I am another leave it in gear but do not use the emergency brake unless I'm on a hill (or it rolls as I get out signaling that I forgot to leave it in gear). 

How successful you will be preventing movement by leaving it in gear depends on the compression of the engine and the torque multiplication of the gearing, not whether you are in forward or reverse. On a very old, pretty worn out engine with little compression, you really need that parking or emergency brake. But to maximize your ability to hold with the engine, you want top gear, not lowest gear. The reason is the same as why you want to accelerate from a stop in first. The gearing in first multiplies the engine torque so you can accelerate faster. The gearing also multiplies the torque from the weight of the car which is trying to rotate the engine. The least multiplication of engine torque is in top gear. That will make it harder for the weight of the car to turn the engine over to move the car with the engine off. 

I haven't really looked at how my 2009 BMW parking brake works but on my previous cars it has been a cable actuated mechanism and most typically a drum brake being actuated (I had a Fiat that tried to actuate rear discs with a cable but that doesn't work). On a relatively new car, these work fine but I have owned vehicles where there was corrosion between the cable and the tube it pases through such that release of the parking brake was not as consistent as I wanted. I guess this is my excuse for why I don't always use it. I think it is a good idea to use the parking brake.

Jim


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

JimD1 said:


> I am another leave it in gear but do not use the emergency brake unless I'm on a hill (or it rolls as I get out signaling that I forgot to leave it in gear).
> 
> How successful you will be preventing movement by leaving it in gear depends on the compression of the engine and the torque multiplication of the gearing, not whether you are in forward or reverse. On a very old, pretty worn out engine with little compression, you really need that parking or emergency brake. But to maximize your ability to hold with the engine, you want top gear, not lowest gear. The reason is the same as why you want to accelerate from a stop in first. The gearing in first multiplies the engine torque so you can accelerate faster. The gearing also multiplies the torque from the weight of the car which is trying to rotate the engine. The least multiplication of engine torque is in top gear. That will make it harder for the weight of the car to turn the engine over to move the car with the engine off.
> Jim


Sorry, Jim, but your theory is ass-backwards....the gear with the MOST multiplication is the one that will provide the most rolling resistance, not the other way around....


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

cwinter said:


> My dad parks his car outside and usually uses just the gear during winter to prevent the brake from freezing shut, but to be honest, I have never heard of anyone having their parking brake frozen preventing them from driving off. :dunno:





vexed said:


> I confess that happened to me many years ago, when I told my Dad he laughed and said that's why he did not use the ebrake in the winter.
> 
> I am in the first gear ebrake camp, old habits are hard to break.


Believe me, e-brakes DO freeze up (to the point of immobilizing the car)....


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

Fast Bob said:


> Believe me, e-brakes DO freeze up (to the point of immobilizing the car)....


I can certainly see how it would, just had never heard of an actual anecdote by someone.

So, vexed, what did ya do to loosen it?

If you were to drive off with it frozen, could you damage your brakes?


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## vexed (Dec 22, 2001)

cwinter said:


> I can certainly see how it would, just had never heard of an actual anecdote by someone.
> 
> So, vexed, what did ya do to loosen it?
> 
> If you were to drive off with it frozen, could you damage your brakes?


I could not drive the car, I released the brake and came back a day later after it had thawed out Lesson learned, did not happen again.


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## Getsmmr (May 9, 2005)

I do the only logical thing - i simply hop out with the car in neutral with no brake on. Sometimes I curb the wheels, but usually I just let the car roll into the car either behind me or in front of me, unless of course it's an SUV. In that case I make sure I pull out bumper bully


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

Getsmmr said:


> I do the only logical thing - i simply hop out with the car in neutral with no brake on. Sometimes I curb the wheels, but usually I just let the car roll into the car either behind me or in front of me, unless of course it's an SUV. In that case I make sure I pull out bumper bully


"Ex-New Yawka", huh ?


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## Getsmmr (May 9, 2005)

Fast Bob said:


> "Ex-New Yawka", huh ?


You got it....

But seriously, all the use on these SF hills here have definitely "stretched" the cable in the brake, I need to give a it a major pull these days or it will roll until it bangs against 1st gear.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

Getsmmr said:


> You got it....
> 
> But seriously, all the use on these SF hills here have definitely "stretched" the cable in the brake, I need to give a it a major pull these days or it will roll until it bangs against 1st gear.


I don`t know if they`re still constructed the same way, but I adjusted the cable on one of my previous BMWs....under the boot, at the base of the ebrake handle, is (was) a threaded adjuster which allowed you to remove some of the slack from the cable....IIRC, I was able to get it to the point where "four clicks" of pull would hold the car pretty well.


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

Fast Bob,

I appreciate you are only expressing the conventional wisdom but as I explained in my first post, the conventional wisdom is simply not correct. If it helps you listen, I am a mechanical engineer.

The purpose of the gears between the engine in our cars and the wheels is to multiply the torque provided by the motor. The more engine revolutions are required for one wheel revolution, the easier it is for the engine to turn the wheels. This same principal is used in hoists and pulleys and levers. Since our cars turn more engine revolutions for a given speed in first gear, we know that the torque required to move the wheels is lowest in first gear. The torque required to rotate the wheels is highest in the highest gear we have (6th for me). 

In short, conventional wisdom is what is wrong in this case. It is fairly simple physics (in which I got an A if you care). It is easier to use first gear since it may be what we need the next time we drive the car but if your goal is to prevent movement, you should use 6th.

Jim


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## sno_duc (Sep 3, 2008)

JimD1 said:


> Fast Bob,
> 
> I appreciate you are only expressing the conventional wisdom but as I explained in my first post, the conventional wisdom is simply not correct. If it helps you listen, I am a mechanical engineer.
> 
> ...


I disagree, ever push start a car with a manual. Try letting the clutch out in first, if the engine has any compression at all, the tires will slide and the nice people pushing you will wonder if what you're up to. 2nd or 3rd and it starts right up. Higher gears don't spin the engine fast enough for a clean start.


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## JackalopeZX3 (Dec 13, 2009)

1st gear and e-brake on inclines only. Habit I got into after an old New England truck driver told me "in case the e-brake freezes".


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

sno_duc said:


> I disagree, ever push start a car with a manual. Try letting the clutch out in first, if the engine has any compression at all, the tires will slide and the nice people pushing you will wonder if what you're up to. 2nd or 3rd and it starts right up. Higher gears don't spin the engine fast enough for a clean start.


+1 :thumbup:


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

Sno Duc,

Thanks for sharing your logic in disagreeing. And I have push started cars many times, thankfully none of them very recently. Many years ago when I was in college, I left the lights on for a week and ruined my battery. A new battery was not in my budget that semester. It would hold a charge for a brief dinner date but not a prolonged one. I learned that none of the young ladies I took out were worth a darn at letting the clutch out to get the car started and then pushing it back in to keep the engine running. Pushing the car up to speed repeatedly while they demonstrate they cannot follow directions can be a bit frustrating. And if I yelled at them the situation deteriorated further.

Push starting does not, however, refute my argument it helps it. The resistance to movement for both parking and push starting is the engine is effectively working as an air compressor (or gas compressor if you're feeding it gasoline as you should in push starting but it still mostly air). If you attempt to push start in first, the resistance will be more because you are wanting to spin the engine more revolutions when the clutch is engaged. Engines that have decent compression will have 100-200 psi compression. If you select a higher gear, for any given vehicle speed when the clutch is engaged, the engine will be making fewer revolutions and thus the resistance will be less. For instance, if you are in 1st gear, the engine has to turn about 15 revolutions for one revolution of a rear wheel. If you are in 3rd, it would be about half that. Twice as many revolutions means twice as many revolutions of the 100-200 psi resistance. 

When you are parked, you are trying not to let the engine make even one revolution. So in that case, the attempt by gravity to move the vehicle (producing a force), is trying to make the engine be a compressor. And the gravity force is multiplied by the final drive ratio of the vehicle. So if you use a low gear, you let the gravity force have maximum effect and are more likely to move the car. Forward or reverse doesn't matter because the engine doesn't care which direction it spins, for a situation like this (there may be some difference in the resistance but it is a second order effect). 

If you wanted to push start from a stopped position with the clutch engaged and the car in gear, then you would want to use 1st. I've never heard of anybody attempting that, however.

Jim


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

JimD1 said:


> Push starting does not, however, refute my argument it helps it. The resistance to movement for both parking and push starting is the engine is effectively working as an air compressor (or gas compressor if you're feeding it gasoline as you should in push starting but it still mostly air). If you attempt to push start in first, the resistance will be more because you are wanting to spin the engine more revolutions when the clutch is engaged. Engines that have decent compression will have 100-200 psi compression. If you select a higher gear, for any given vehicle speed when the clutch is engaged, the engine will be making fewer revolutions and thus the resistance will be less. For instance, if you are in 1st gear, the engine has to turn about 15 revolutions for one revolution of a rear wheel. If you are in 3rd, it would be about half that. Twice as many revolutions means twice as many revolutions of the 100-200 psi resistance.
> 
> Jim


Jim,

You really need to stop thinking like an engineer and look at this with a clear head....

Your statement above contains the *real* answer to this issue, but for whatever reason, you`re "not seeing the forest for the trees", as the saying goes....Your "compressor analogy" clearly shows that FIRST gear provides way more resistance.

Fact: In 6th gear, pushing the car forward one complete revolution of the engine would move the car forward approximately 17 feet (assuming a nominal 6th gear ratio of 0.85:1, and a rear diff ratio of 3.07, along with a 25-inch tire diameter)

Moving the car forward those same 17 feet in first gear (4.35 ratio) would require the engine to turn over 4 1/2 times.

Now....which do you say provides more resistance....spinning the engine over *once*, or spinning it over four-and-a-half times ?

For a rather simplistic (but convincing) demonstration, place your hand, palm down, flat on the table, and push it forward....notice how much resistance is present....this is "first gear".

Now, rotate your hand 90 degrees, so your thumb is pointing straight up, and just the edge of your pinky and heel of your hand is touching the table....again, push your hand forward, noticing the difference from the first time....this is "sixth gear"....


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

FastBob and others,

I think you got to the right place but I don't think you got there using exactly sound logic. But I admit I was wrong.

The flaw in my logic is most easily summarized as the leverage of the engine on the car is equal and opposite to the leverage of the car on the engine. Pretty obvious when the light bulb finally went off for me but I needed to see a diagram to "get it". The torque of the engine on the car is highest in first gear. That also means the torque of the car (gravity acting on the car) on the engine is lowest in first gear.

The reason I suggest that moving car reasoning isn't exactly sound is that moving an object from rest is a force question. How many revolutions you need to turn the engine to move 17 feet doesn't really matter if you don't want the car to go 1 inch. But it gets you to the right answer which is not where I got to.

Jim


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## mullman (Jan 5, 2006)

mdsbuc said:


> first gear and e-brake for me. Always.


+1

The driveline can handle the weight of the vehicle just fine.
Clutch drops at 3K+ RPM would cause much more strain than parking the car in 1st.

I'd be curious how many people preaching harm have actually rebuilt anything.

FWIW, one day I might learn how to drive an automatic!


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## KrisL (Dec 22, 2001)

mullman said:


> Clutch drops at 3K+ RPM would cause much more strain than parking the car in 1st.


Taking off from a stop at 700rpm would cause much more strain than parking the car in 1st.


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

I suspect people who don't want to leave the car in gear are thinking of an automatic. If you are on a steep hill with an automatic you definitely want to apply the parking brake before putting the transmission in park (or get the parking brake on before taking your foot off the brake). If you let the weight of the car go onto the transmission, you may have a hard time getting it out of park. 

With a manual, there is no concern like this. Park on an automatic is a pin which can be broken but the gears of a manual can take a lot more than the weight of the car (they have to). And having the weight of the car on the gears of a manual mean nothing relative to moving the gears when you start the car up next.

Jim


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## vizag777 (Aug 29, 2008)

I have driven only manual, stick-shifts all the time, and now have MY09 335xdrive stick-shift.
I follow this practice: [If on level ground, I use handbrake, and put gear in neutral ONLY. When restarting engine, I always press the clutch fully, and start the engine. I do not put vehicle in gear because I've had incidents where my parked vehicle was bumped, and the bump caused a small movement. I believe the gear engagement would be impacted if the vehicle was in gear engaged mode]. [If on an incline - front of vehicle in either direction (downslope or upslope), I use handbrake, and put gear in 1st gear; I also hope that nobody bumps me: I try to park in a clear spot]. [The practice of pressing the clutch before starting engine: I have MY1987 SAAB, stick shift, and ignition key can be removed only after putting gear in reverse].


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

don't most modern manual tranny cars require the clutch pedal to be depressed before the starter is enabled?


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

d geek said:


> don't most modern manual tranny cars require the clutch pedal to be depressed before the starter is enabled?


Modern BMWs do. MINIs too.

Our 2005 Vauxhall (German GM, same as Opel) does not have a starter interlock. The starter will engage with the car in gear.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

vizag777 said:


> I have driven only manual, stick-shifts all the time, and now have MY09 335xdrive stick-shift.
> I follow this practice: [If on level ground, I use handbrake, and put gear in neutral ONLY. When restarting engine, I always press the clutch fully, and start the engine. I do not put vehicle in gear because I've had incidents where my parked vehicle was bumped, and the bump caused a small movement. I believe the gear engagement would be impacted if the vehicle was in gear engaged mode]. [If on an incline - front of vehicle in either direction (downslope or upslope), I use handbrake, and put gear in 1st gear; I also hope that nobody bumps me: I try to park in a clear spot]. [The practice of pressing the clutch before starting engine: I have MY1987 SAAB, stick shift, and ignition key can be removed only after putting gear in reverse].


In all modern BMWs, you MUST depress the clutch pedal to the floor, or the car won`t start, this negates the "I might accidentally start the car in gear" worry....and, you live in Pa., where e-brakes have been known to freeze solid in wintertime.
Abandon your fears, and start leaving the car in gear, it`s the proper (and safe) thing to do....


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## k.merkel (Jan 17, 2010)

Flat ground: Parking brake only.

Facing downhill: 1st gear, front wheels turned toward curb.

Facing uphill: Reverse, front wheels turned away from curb.

I've been doing it this way for some 12 years and the only parking brake seizures I've encountered were minor and on both my two Ford Escorts, and that was due to the rear drum brake mechanism binding.


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## cn90 (Mar 27, 2006)

MicahO said:


> Out of habit I always leave the eBrake on and put the shifter in first, hill or not. On a hill, I generally make sure the car is held firm by the ebrake before I let the clutch out, but I still leave it in first gear as a backup.


This is the proper recommendation!
ALWAYS use BOTH Parking Brake and 1st (or reverse) gear.

BTW, if you have problem with Parking Brake, I just wrote a DIY for E39 here:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426640


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## QuoteWarz Insurance (Dec 17, 2009)

I always leave mind in neatral for some reason. I am sure it is better to leave it in gear, but I use to have a car with auto start so I got into the habit of leaving it in neutral ever since then. If I am on a steep hill then I always leave it in gear and yank on the e-brake.


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## catso (Dec 7, 2009)

Nuetral and e-brake. I worked for a dealer many years ago and I was standing in the showroom when one of the guys went to start a new towtruck parked in front. He didn't notice it was in gear and it went right through the HUGE front window. Clutch interlocks prevent that nowadays, but I never forgot the experience.


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## SC4ME (Nov 20, 2007)

Most people say parking brake and put the car in gear, usually first or reverse. But if you think about it, the safest gear to put it in is the highest gear.

The concept is that if the car is going to roll, if it is in gear, it will require the engine to turn over in order for the car to move. But, first gear is where there is the best mechanical advantage to turn over the engine by moving the car (thats the reason you push start a car in first, its way easier than any other gear!!). And consider if your car has poor compression.................

This is a topic that the age old answer is wrong. :dunno:


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