# Ethanol vs. Ethanol-free gas



## Jim Rolando (Nov 3, 2009)

It is virtually impossible to buy gas in Missoula that does not contain "up to 10% Ethanol". There are three stations listed on Pure-gas.org as having pure 91 octane and I intend to start using them. But, what damage is Ethanol likely to cause and has anyone experienced problems that they can attribute to running it?

I've been trying to avoid it lately, but, the point was driven home this weeked when I was looking for some information in the owner's manual for my Camry and ran across a section that basically said, "never use gas mixed with Ethanol in your car". IF it's true for a Camry it's got to be true for a Bimmer.


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## cn90 (Mar 27, 2006)

Actually it is a myth re E10.
I have used E10 for some 15 years (don't remember starting when) in different cars, Honda Odyssey, Volvo V70, BMWs etc.
Absolutely no issues whatsoever.


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## djfitter (Sep 12, 2007)

On current Bimmers the owners manual states that up to 10% ethanol is OK. :dunno:
I would guess that there are millions of BMW's running on ethanol added gasoline. If for no other reason than it is hard to find gasoline without it. 

dj


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## Fudman (Apr 29, 2007)

cn90 said:


> Actually it is a myth re E10.
> I have used E10 for some 15 years (don't remember starting when) in different cars, Honda Odyssey, Volvo V70, BMWs etc.
> Absolutely no issues whatsoever.


+1, there is no documented harm to engines using 10% ethanol. In NE, I haven't seen 100% gas in years. Just don't use E10 in your airplane! :rofl:


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## 540 M-Sport (Apr 23, 2004)

cn90 said:


> Actually it is a myth re E10.
> I have used E10 for some 15 years (don't remember starting when) in different cars, Honda Odyssey, Volvo V70, BMWs etc.
> Absolutely no issues whatsoever.


+1 for me as well....BUT, the issue is really not with engines, the problem is with the related fuel system...gas tank, fuel pumps, and fuel lines. There have been many instances with various brands (and sometimes specific models) of cars having issues with E10. It can and will eat up seals on fuel pumps, and damage fuel lines if incorrect formulations of rubber are used. More of an issue with older cars, say pre 2000. But some later cars have been affected.

I personally, I have never experienced a problem. There are rumors of raising the level nationwide to 15% (E85), that would create some huge issues I suspect.


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## s140s (Dec 18, 2009)

540 M-Sport said:


> +1 for me as well....BUT, the issue is really not with engines, the problem is with the related fuel system...gas tank, fuel pumps, and fuel lines. There have been many instances with various brands (and sometimes specific models) of cars having issues with E10. It can and will eat up seals on fuel pumps, and damage fuel lines if incorrect formulations of rubber are used. More of an issue with older cars, say pre 2000. But some later cars have been affected.
> 
> I personally, I have never experienced a problem. There are rumors of raising the level nationwide to 15% (E85), that would create some huge issues I suspect.


E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% Gas,dont confuse it with regular gas which is 90% Gas, 10% Ethanol that is added there for the reason of raising the octane rating. I have not seen a single issue with using it.


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## Jim Rolando (Nov 3, 2009)

Yeah, I've never had any problems in any of my cars over the years and really never thought a great deal about it until I started reading passing remarks made by people in some of these threads regarding the matter. In fact, I've some times attributed the Ethanol with the reason that I have never experienced a fuel related or fuel delivery problem in any car I've owned in the past 30 years except some injector problems in my 1977 VW Camper that was pre-Ethanol. I now have an 80 VW Camper that has run mostly on Ethanol gas and have never fouled an injector.


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## Fudman (Apr 29, 2007)

I have heard that E10 can cause issues with carbuerated engines but I have no specific knowledge of the details and it has never harmed my 2-stroke or 4-stroke carbuerated small engines.


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## 540 M-Sport (Apr 23, 2004)

s140s said:


> E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% Gas,dont confuse it with regular gas which is 90% Gas, 10% Ethanol that is added there for the reason of raising the octane rating. I have not seen a single issue with using it.


I have never had an issue either, as I previously stated. Sorry for the confusion...but as I said, there is talk to require 15% ethanol in the future...if so, it will likely create a lot more issues than the very few experienced currently.


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## QSilver7 (Aug 15, 2008)

This topic comes up every now and then...and when it came up back in 2007...I went searching for info and found BMW's stance on gas/ethanol blends (E10/E15/ E85) in the BMW TIS...click this link to read my "condensed" version of the info from the TIS: *http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/430765*


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## bowtie (Sep 23, 2009)

Another great Government idea.... 

Ethanol makes no sense, worse mileage, worse pollution, takes more energy to make than it gives out....do you know it takes 3 gallons of water to make a single gallon of Ethanol?

:rofl:

For you who think it's benign....there are documented issues with many manufacturers regarding damaged motors, including BMW...

The Great Ethanol Scam


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## Jim Rolando (Nov 3, 2009)

Well, there isn't any doubt that Ehanol is bad from an environmental standpoint, for many reasons including devoting thousands of acres of land to the production of corn. But, the point here is whether or not it is bad, in small quanties for your car; and I don't know. I do know, however, that if I was faced with 85 % alcohol, I'd be tempted to make a Martini with it rather than put it into my gas tank.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

My X3 had lower fuel consumption when I put a few tankfuls of ethanol-free premium gasoline, and I'm sure there are long-term issues with the fuel system that can be traced to the ethanol content.


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## Ishniknork (Aug 22, 2005)

*Great article bowtie!*

I believe ethanol is not good for any fuel system not specifically designed to run on it. Even in small amounts it can eventually damage fuel system components.

Ethanol sucks. Period. Lose/lose situation all the way around. Your taxes pay to have it made through government subsidies, you pay MORE for it again at the pump through increased cost/gallon, and again by decreased mileage that in turn causes you to have to pay even MORE. Not to mention the increase in food prices from land diverted to grow corn.

One of my favorite videos:


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Seems like consumers have no say in the matter.

One day I woke up and found every gas pump had a sign "may contain up to 10% ethanol".

I don't remember there being a referendum on the matter.

Just another example of government intrusion into our lives, telling us what's best for us.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

AzNMpower32 said:


> I'm sure there are long-term issues with the fuel system that can be traced to the ethanol content.


Mainly in Marine Engines
cheers
vern


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## jagass (Feb 8, 2009)

I think what you've said is unreal. Not sure though.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

I wish my 328i AT had better acceleration and I'm wondering if things would have been better with 100% premium fuel.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

jagass said:


> I think what you've said is unreal. Not sure though.


Then why comment?:dunno::dunno::dunno:
cheers
vern


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

I've been told by more than one BMW tech that ethanol is very bad for DI motors. I was told it is better to use no name pure gas and put some techron in every couple of months than to use top tier gas with 10% corn. This was for DI motoers only. I was told non DI motors were ok with E10. N4S


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## QSilver7 (Aug 15, 2008)

Just a reminder...there's a LINK in post #10 where you can READ what BMW's stance is on the use of ethanol/alchohol blended fuel and to what percentage they recommend. :bigpimp:


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

hpowders said:


> I wish my 328i AT had better acceleration and I'm wondering if things would have been better with 100% premium fuel.


The answer is no. Your car (and mine) is designed to make maximum horsepower on 91 octane fuel. Whether it has 10% ethanol in it is irrelevant. It's still 91 octane and that is what's important.


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## bdr127 (Sep 15, 2006)

Michael Schott said:


> The answer is no. Your car (and mine) is designed to make maximum horsepower on 91 octane fuel. Whether it has 10% ethanol in it is irrelevant. It's still 91 octane and that is what's important.


Octane and energy are two completely different things....

The octane rating is indicative of the fuel's resistance to combustion. (i.e. preventing premature combustion resulting in timing issues, knocking, etc.)

Gasoline has ~116k BTU of energy per gallon.
Ethanol has ~76k BTU of energy per gallon.

So if you have a 90/10 gas/ethanol mix, you're only at 112k BTU/gallon. Your energy is getting about 5% less energy than it would with 100% gas. But, hey, it won't knock.


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## MRCW (Nov 4, 2009)

bdr127 said:


> Octane and energy are two completely different things....
> 
> The octane rating is indicative of the fuel's resistance to combustion. (i.e. preventing premature combustion resulting in timing issues, knocking, etc.)
> 
> ...


Ethanol does not have the BTU rating that gasoline has. It takes about 20% more Ethanol to equal the "energy" of gasoline. Energy consists of Power to the make the engine work and HEAT! Ethanol does, however, burn cooler, actually, than gasoline. The octane rating for Ethanol is about 100, or better. which means that it burns for a longer period of time, and delivers more of it's energy to the engine. The reason that an engine "seems" to get hotter burning such high octane fuel is that the burn time is longer with such fuels as alcohol as opposed to gasoline, so the engine tends to retain more heat than with a lower octane fuel.

The BTU issue with ethanol vs gas is not that dramatic if you factor in the ability to produce power without predetonation ( which is knocking) A good bit of the BTU rating of gas is taken up in Latent heat...no more power, just hotter...

If an engine was designed from the start to run on ethanol, higher compression, etc. to take advantage of the difference in ethanol fuels from Gas, you will find an engine that will run a bit cooler and have as much power as gas.

OH, and for your folks that think the ethanol "lobby" is getting a government break...look back to the past 80 -90 years when Rockefeller and standard oil got huge incentives and cut deals with GM to produce gasoline engines for cars while henry ford and the ethanol industry was overtaxed...Do you really think Prohibition in the US was about booze?


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

cwickberg said:


> If an engine was designed from the start to run on ethanol, higher compression, etc. to take advantage of the difference in ethanol fuels from Gas, you will find an engine that will run a bit cooler and have as much power as gas.


That's the thing- I really don't believe modern BMW engines were designed to run on 10% ethanol, rather that the engine can tolerate or accept 10% ethanol.


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## Hooray! (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm not sure if it is fact or fiction, but I was just told that the highest octane gas (93+) you can buy is ethanol free... the BJs I buy 93 ($2.77) and the pump has no 10% ethanol sticker... might be right.


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## Route 66 (Oct 5, 2009)

I like it that in both Minnesota and Wisconsin there are stations that offer both Ethanol and nonethanol fuel pumps. I always choose the non ethanol. I remember when i first purchased my BMW that the dealership had told me to stay away from ethanol and the dealership had seen concentrations as high as 18% in some samples that had been tested with cars experiencing starting problems.


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## AzNMpower32 (Oct 23, 2005)

*Eine Liste*

Here's a website with lists of ethanol-free fuel stations. It's important to note that in some cases, the "ethanol-free" may only apply to regular (87 AKI, 91 RON) gasoline.

http://pure-gas.org/

For instance I once drove by the ethanol-free station in Fork Union VA but it only carried regular gasoline :bawling:. And I had to tell my friend in Greenville SC that an Exxon he was using carried ethanol-free only in its regular gasoline.


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## AmosB (Jul 26, 2010)

AzNMpower32 said:


> Here's a website with lists of ethanol-free fuel stations. It's important to note that in some cases, the "ethanol-free" may only apply to regular (87 AKI, 91 RON) gasoline.
> 
> http://pure-gas.org/
> 
> For instance I once drove by the ethanol-free station in Fork Union VA but it only carried regular gasoline :bawling:. And I had to tell my friend in Greenville SC that an Exxon he was using carried ethanol-free only in its regular gasoline.


almost similar to something that i did. i went all the way, trying to conserve fuel till i got to a ethanol free station, only to realise that it had "normal" gas


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## bdr127 (Sep 15, 2006)

.


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## Route 66 (Oct 5, 2009)

Pure gas.org. What a great source for Ethanol free gas stations. Thanks for posting it.


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## Klamalama (Oct 6, 2007)

I just completed a round trip to Dallas, from northeast Maryland. Tanks with the ethanol gas gave me about 2.5 mpg less. 

YMMV.


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