# The E65 IS going to FAIL.



## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

With a facelift already scheduled, a much more conservative look for the E60, and revisions to the troubled I Drive system promised, I'm not so sure the E65's success is that unalloyed.

I saw an E65 parked behind an E38 740i Sport yesterday. The E65 certainly had more presence, but then so does a Hummer H2. The clean lines of the E38 were so much more elegant than those of the bloated pig parked behind it that I was literally embarassed for the E65's poor owner, whose only sin was submitting his order one year too late.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2002)

My original post in this thread is dated 3/25/02. And upon re-reading it, I do not feel compelled to retract any of it's content. I still think it will fail. The rumored emergency facelift only supports my early prognostication.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

I think BMW got it 85% right with this car, now all they have to do is fix the other 15% with a facelift and a revised back and they will be on their way to full success.

Outside of a few people on this board, many other non-car people I've spoken to think it's a winner as is . . .


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

TD said:


> *My original post in this thread is dated 3/25/02. And upon re-reading it, I do not feel compelled to retract any of it's content. I still think it will fail. The rumored emergency facelift only supports my early prognostication. *


I don't know. The topic came up at a recent lunch, which happened to be attended by several managers in my office. The 100% CONSENSUS was two thumbs up. :dunno: In fact, I was the _only_ one present who thought the exterior needed help; coincidentally, I was also the only one who could not realistically buy one tomorrow.

Even if the E65 turns out to be a flop, it can't be all bad for BMW. Better that they discover and correct their flawed logic on a relatively low-volume (flagship) model as opposed to unleashing hordes of mangled 325s upon the world.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2002)

JST said:


> *With a facelift already scheduled, a much more conservative look for the E60, and revisions to the troubled I Drive system promised, I'm not so sure the E65's success is that unalloyed.
> 
> I saw an E65 parked behind an E38 740i Sport yesterday. The E65 certainly had more presence, but then so does a Hummer H2. The clean lines of the E38 were so much more elegant than those of the bloated pig parked behind it that I was literally embarassed for the E65's poor owner, whose only sin was submitting his order one year too late. *


I was talking cars with my boss the other day after a 740i (E38) had been parking in the space reserved for our company president. We were specualting who's car it might be. Now he's not a big car guy (he drives a recent Acura RL), but I took him for a guy who only buys (leases?) new. But he spoke of that E38 in gushing terms and claimed that one of them was going to be his next car. I asked if he meant the current 7-series or the one in the garage we had been speaking of. He emphatically insisted the older model and that he'd never drive anything as hideous as the new one and went on to ask what the f*ck was BMW thinking when they designed that _thing_ (as if I knew).


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> *
> 
> I don't know. The topic came up at a recent lunch, which happened to be attended by several managers in my office. The 100% CONSENSUS was two thumbs up. :dunno: In fact, I was the only one present who thought the exterior needed help; coincidentally, I was also the only one who could not realistically buy one tomorrow.
> 
> Even if the E65 turns out to be a flop, it can't be all bad for BMW. Better that they discover and correct their flawed logic on a relatively low-volume (flagship) model as opposed to unleashing hordes of mangled 325s upon the world. *


Yeah, but you work with IT guys who are probably more concerned with the 30-40 year old version of bling bling than with actual taste and style.


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

*I don't know the sales figures . . .*

or the demographics of who is or is not buying them, but when I drive by Sterling BMW in Newport Beach, there is a line of the old model 7 series cars that have been traded in. :dunno:


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Yeah, but you work with IT guys who are probably more concerned with the 30-40 year old version of bling bling than with actual taste and style. *


Suck my nightstick. :flipoff: If I have to depreciate my cars twice a year in order to have "taste and style," I'll stick with the bling.

Sadly, as much as I'd love to strike back, I just can't. I agree with you. Half of them also want an H2 for ferrying the kids to school, when a Suburban would do much better. :angel:


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Yeah, but you work with IT guys who are probably more concerned with the 30-40 year old version of bling bling than with actual taste and style. *


Another thought on this. Who said anything about taste and style? You were saying the E65 will fail. If enough of my bling-obsessed IT cronies get in line for one, it'll do just fine.


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## MikeW (Dec 20, 2001)

Whatever we may think of the E65, fact is, I see alot of them around. Whether it's just the first year bump or not, people ARE buying them. How they'll do long term is another story.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Here's my deal, and let me be brutally honest. I hate the E65. I hate the way it looks, I hate the new age crap its designer spews to justify its wretchedness, I hate that the best car company in the world has been reduced to producing gimmicky, faddish designs that serve to shock rather than to please, and I hate what the E65 portends for the rest of the BMW line. 

None of this is rational. It's purely emotional. 

So my reactions to predictions about the success or failure of the E65 are not necessarily objective. I want to see the E65 fail. I want to see Bangle lose his job. I want hundreds of the damned things lined up and pushed into the ocean, just to make them go away. 

Nonetheless, I think (hope?) that the E65 is one (or several) steps too far, and that you will see a pullback from many of the more controversial details on upcoming models. I think we've already seen this with the E60, which looks like a Pontiac but doesn't look very much like an E65.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Isn't it funny that a bunch of guys with E36's are commenting about style :lmao: :lmao:

I mean come on . . . if style were so important to you, you'd be driving E46's . . . now go ahead and Flame away !!!!!!!!!


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

Alan F said:


> *Isn't it funny that a bunch of guys with E36's are commenting about style :lmao: :lmao:
> 
> I mean come on . . . if style were so important to you, you'd be driving E46's . . . now go ahead and Flame away !!!!!!!!! *


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Ryan330Ci said:


> *
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: *


lol . . . Ryan, you gotta admit that it is a little ironic


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2002)

Alan F said:


> *Isn't it funny that a bunch of guys with E36's are commenting about style :lmao: :lmao:
> 
> I mean come on . . . if style were so important to you, you'd be driving E46's . . . now go ahead and Flame away !!!!!!!!! *


Whatever Alan. You're getting so into the bling bling that I think you're on the wrong board.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Whatever Alan. You're getting so into the bling bling that I think you're on the wrong board. *


LMAO . . . don't be silly


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

I don't think Alan F is into bling-bling, I think that he is just less narrow-minded than you, members of local E36 gang. That's no reason to vote him off this board 

Where did you people read about re-design scheduled? In "rumors" section of Roundel? :lmao:

iDrive is being re-worked, of course! Current version is a revolutionary attempt, it will evolve now.

Anyhow. There I was, thinking that beauty is only skin deep and that people value soul, not body. Naive me 


Tastes and OPINIONS aside, the car is not a failure  It sells.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

rost12 said:


> *I don't think Alan F is into bling-bling, I think that he is just less narrow-minded than you, members of local E36 gang. That's no reason to vote him off this board
> 
> Where did you people read about re-design scheduled? In "rumors" section of Roundel? :lmao:
> 
> ...


Beauty is only skin deep, but an ugly like that goes straight to the bone (who said that?).


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

You people love to bash Bangle about the E65 and E85, but never say anything about his promotion of the Z3 coupe. He was as responsible for this weird, low seller as much as any other car. Read the current Roundel about it, I belive.

Contrast the few coupe sales to the huge E65 sucess, obviously tastes are different...


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## e28Will (Sep 24, 2002)

*i have to put my 2 cents in..... =)*

First off, I like the e65. now with that out of the way here's what I think of the e65's idrive.

BMW has always been on the forefront of technology and control. The OBC that came on the older cars are head and shoulders above what other cars had(in terms of info available), and i'm sure even back then people were complaining about the vent controls being 3 slides to open/close (windshield defrost, main vent, floor) rather than just push buttons or a single slide with diagrams of airflow on that stick figure. With the 3 slide vent controls, you can finely adjust how much air to the areas you want most.

With the idrive, everything is centrally located, left hand stays on the steering wheel and right hand can manipulate all of the controls and not fumble around for adjustments. As for the #1 complaint of the system as being not intuitive enough, how much more intuitive can it get? I guess the sales associate at other dealerships aren't as good at teaching info retention as the guys at Cutter does.

I remember reading a post on the roadfly forum by Orangemarlin (who's had all the big boy toys that we all wish we could have; 996TT, boxster s, CL600, GT2, Z8, now e65). He said the way they explained it was a navigator would sit to the right, so a move of the toggle to the right would initiate the navigation; you speak forward so you push forward to activate the phone; since BMW's are still driver oriented, a push to the left will access the climate controls.... -someone correct me if i'm wrong because i'm not an e65 owner and i can't exactly remember the entire thread.

But nevertheless, imho a lot of people's problems of learning the idrive system is not the idrive system's "complexity" but rather their own willingness to learn rather than be frustrated. Association is helpful in information retention, perhaps Cutter Motors should have a sales associate clinic to teach other salesmen across the country how to teach their clients idrive.:dunno: -ohwait, that's BMWNA's job. And with something like the idrive, the more repetition the more effortless it becomes. -think about it, do you look at the keypad for every button you push when you want change channels on your tv at home?? or think about the layout of a keyboard, i'm sure typing is not nearly as agonizing as when you first started using the computer. The keystrokes needed for a particular function just become intuitive. another good example is the 10-key, every numeral is adjacent to a central location ("5") thus eliminating the added translational movement needed to go from one control to the next making the entire process more efficient.

there's my 2 cents. =)
Will


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## Dan (Dec 27, 2001)

*My 2 cents...*

I've worked in the automobile industry since 1984, and I've been a student of automobile design since the 1960's. Here are my observations:

1. Good design does NOT take any time to grow on you. If a new car looks strange at first view, that is due to poor design. The E65 is ugly because its design details have been poorly executed. The front end needs to be reworked, the slab sides need to be broken up with a body side molding, and the rear end is a disaster.

2. The I-drive is not well-thought out - it has added complexity instead of reduced the effort to utilize the vehicle's sub-systems. This will never be accepted by the majority of the intended market segment for the E65.

3. The interior has some major flaws - dashboard is not driver-oriented, lack of a floor shift is not keeping with the BMW tradition, and the fake-titanium plastic trim looks and feels cheap.

BMW is unfortunately following in the same pattern of egotistical oriented thinking that has hurt other automakers - because their sales are successful, they are thinking they can do no wrong. Bangle's ideas of shaking up the established view of BMW is a terrible mistake, and will eventually hurt them financially. If you want more insight, read the December Automobile's review of the Z-4's styling disaster.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

The E65 front end is fugly.

I-drive --- just say no !!!!

E65 performance and handling :thumbup:

The E36 is plain jane fugly.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: My 2 cents...*



Dan said:


> *
> 1. Good design does NOT take any time to grow on you. If a new car looks strange at first view, that is due to poor design. The E65 is ugly because its design details have been poorly executed. The front end needs to be reworked, the slab sides need to be broken up with a body side molding, and the rear end is a disaster.
> 
> 2. The I-drive is not well-thought out - it has added complexity instead of reduced the effort to utilize the vehicle's sub-systems. This will never be accepted by the majority of the intended market segment for the E65.
> ...


I sorta agree with you on the 1st point. I loved E38's design, I'm sorta OK with E65's design. I definitely think that BMW could and should have done better with exterior. But I do not consider it ugly.

2-nd point - you're wrong. You ever tried working your way around MB's COMMAND system in S-class? Tons of vaguely marked buttons. I think iDrive is an improvement over the old "as much buttons as in 747 cockpit" idea. We'll see how Audi's MMI works out (note - it copies iDrive, with a bit simplification, AFAIK).

Oh, and the market for E65 is a younger in general crowd than for S-class. And it has accepted it, so far.

3-rd point - Who the heck said dashboard HAS to be driver-oriented? Floor mounted shifter?

Wait, is this objective design criticism or is it YOUR personal preference? If it's the latter, then it has no value.

Oh, and after spending 3+ months with the car now, I don't feel that cheap-plastic you talk about.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

ObD said:


> *E65 performance and handling :thumbup:
> 
> The E36 is plain jane fugly.  *


Umm...selective quoting, but what the heck.

:thumbup:


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## Mathew (Feb 8, 2002)

TD said:


> *Basically, no REAL person would ever be caught deaad wearing that sh*t. Well, the E65 is basically the same. A handful of flashy rich folks will buy them for the sheer noticability of the design but anyone with actual taste and refinement will not be able to get past the styling. It's just too hideous.
> 
> *


 :tsk: :tsk:

Ive been trying to stay out of this since the resurrection, but i just do not like this quote. The reason we have one is that no other car could match the handling and performance of our E38, except for the E65. Period.

Yes, i know the sytling is controversial. I know not everyone likes it, and nor do i expect them to. I dont like iDrive, the column shifter, nor the front of the car. I am cautious of the future.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*where are the sales YTD?*

am curious about the running totals for the E65 for its first year out.

even the first 18 months out. those figures would be quite telling, i think. i'll go and check Roundel, but i don't recall the numbers being in there.

sales for the first period when the car is still new are ultimately going to answer this question.


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## DINANISR3 (Aug 16, 2002)

I dont know why some of you guys say that the E36 is ugly.. I like it.. I would rather take an E36 M3 over an E46 325 or 330 anyday... I driven a 325 its slow... 330 is a little better but still slow... any ///M car = pure driving pleasure..


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

MikeW said:


> *Whatever we may think of the E65, fact is, I see alot of them around. Whether it's just the first year bump or not, people ARE buying them. How they'll do long term is another story. *


BMWNA is subsidizing the lease rates on the E65. It's the most discreet way of admitting that the model is not selling very well. Granted, it must be tough moving 70+ grand cars in this economy but I do think that once the novelty effect wears off, the E65 sales will plummet.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

DINANISR3 said:


> *I dont know why some of you guys say that the E36 is ugly.. I like it.. I would rather take an E36 M3 over an E46 325 or 330 anyday... I driven a 325 its slow... 330 is a little better but still slow... any ///M car = pure driving pleasure.. *


No one said the E36 was ugly . . . when I had one I thought it was a great looking car and like all cars that get older, it is getting dated looking.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Alan F said:


> *
> 
> No one said the E36 was ugly . . . when I had one I thought it was a great looking car and like all cars that get older, it is getting dated looking. *


Please, with that cow catcher front end, the E36 looks like a Camaro, the rear end is a K-car, and the sides are from a Buick.


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## blackdawg (Jan 4, 2002)

*subjectivity versus objectivity.*

fact of the matter is: it doesn't matter what people think about the e36 versus the e46 or the e39 versus the e65.

history has demonstrated that both the e36 and e46 models are phenomenal sellers. some of us do not like the "feel" of the e46s because we've owned e36 based chassis cars and the road feel is lacking in the E46. but the E46s handle better. i will freely admit this. but i hate drive by wire throttle and the lack of a mechanical limited slip differential. i don't drive the cars to pose, make a socioeconomic statement and it's not our first nice car moving up from a camry/maxima/accord/VW. so, my opinions are based on track time and living with both cars.

the e39 will be remembered for its horrific resale values.

and we can argue about the styling of the e65, but if you skip past that and get to the heart of it: the facts are what we should be basing our arguments upon. Roundel reports 7 series sales are up for the year, well, duh. it's new. but the emergency redesign and the subsidized leases and/or dealer incentives point to something wrong with the car.


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## IndyMike (Dec 19, 2001)

I just got back from Germany. The last time I was in the Fatherland was in March of '01, and since it (E65) was relatively newly introduced I didn't have much to base any comments about my perception of it's acceptance by homeland buyers.

Well, after having blitzed the country for over 1k miles and after talking to my German cousin I can tell you that the E65 is not being accepted by the Germans, nor by Europeans in general.

I saw 5 E65's during my one week stay and 4 of those were in the Munich area, 3 of which were BMW Service vehicles, which basically means they are used to fairy VIP's to and from the Munich airport, as well as transport them around the metro Munich area. Now, how they missed the fact that I was in the country and had to humble myself and take mass transit to get to the ED center is beyond me. I guess if you bash Bangle a couple of hundred times the big shots in the company actually take it personally. I've tried to reconcile this anomaly and it's the only rational conclusion that I can come up with. :tsk: 

Anyway, the E65 just ain't cuttin' it in Europe, folks. Current E38 owners are comparing the two and it's just not adding up for them. They are basically either in a 'hold, let's wait and see' perspective, or are opting for the S Klasse or A8. 

My cousin, who is a bigger BMW nut than I will ever be, says that the only people really buying this car are the Americans and Middle East sheiks.

There is also significant Bangle bashing going on in Germany. My cousin says that a German auto rag recently ran a poll and 70% of the respondents gave Bangle and his design team TWO thumbs down.

It also seems that initial impressions of the Z4 are not very favorable. The perception is that Bangle is designing these cars with only the American market in mind, and by that appraisal he is being arrogant and condescending to Germans.

Since the E65 is a relatively low production vehicle it's OK that it is only treading water in the Fatherland.

But if the soon to come 5er reihe and future 3er are not accepted by the German community, then BMW has a nightmare on it's hands. There are just too many excellent car designs and performance packages that competitors have to offer in Europe for the Germans to put up with being stuck with a 'controversial' design. 

The trendy American market will only take this company so far. BMW AG desperately needs their homeland customers to continue to support them in order to meet the companys lofty sales projections.

If the company fails to do this, then they will quickly find that they are a stranger in their home country.

Personally, like Alan F, I think this car is not far from being a flat-out winner in the category. Get rid of the goofy, stupid looking headlights and bushy eyebrows; tweak the front fascia a little (basically put; man, give the car some decent looking foglights); and straighten out the rear.

I-drive also needs to be modified to make it more intuitive.

Certainly, the driving dynamics are the top of the class, but it's these other subjective areas that if not attended to will lead to the E65's perception of only being a car marketed for the trendy and thereby deny it a world-class designation, IMHO.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

Hey Mike,

Very nice write-up! :thumbup: Thanks for sharing that with us.

I think it's safe to say that the car has been well accepted in LatAm as well (at least in Brazil). Maybe due to the fact that the Brazilian market takes things for granted sometimes (despite the controversial design). You'll often hear comments like: "well if it's got a roundel on the hood it's gotta be good". In addition to that, the local market is really into new stuff (i.e. iDrive - BTW, have you guys noticed that Audi installed a pseudo version of iDrive on the new A8? ). Not to mention that car people down here really bought BMW's spin re: trunk lid (is it really 100% spin? Personally I bought it too).

Come to think of it, I'm a lot like that when it comes to total disregard for looks. I guess I'm always looking forward to "what's new" and get excited by it... :dunno: Oh well, it's worked so far. At least in my experience (i.e. E36 then 3 E46's).


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## rwg (May 10, 2002)

You know, I stayed out of this the first time around, but I can't help it this time. The possible problem those of you who have always thought the car is destined to fail might be that YOU ARE NOT THE TARGET MARKET. :banghead: 

They aren't making the 7 series for people that take their cars to the track. They are making them for more established people who might appreciate performance, but don't live for it. I don't hate the car, but I don't love it and I don't have any interest in getting one. Plus, it will be 5 years (at least) before I could afford one. On the other hand, everyone that I know who could actually buy one of the things seems to pretty much like them.

Having said that, the lease rates seem to indiate that they are not selling like BMW would hope. On the other hand, I don't know if any cars in that market are selling well in this economy without help.

Doesn't anybody else remember the reaction around the time of the E46 release? Granted it wasn't nearly *this* severe, but people hated that design too. Look at it now. Sometimes I think that people just hate anything new.


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## bluer1 (May 30, 2002)

TD said:


> *My wife replied by pointing to a Z8 and saying, "That design sure did not require any time to grow on me." Enough said. (BTW, he admitted to being terrified of the pics of the CS1.)
> *


Except that the Z8 design has had 47 years to grow on her.

1955 507 prototype designed by Albrecht Graf Goertz.

Guess I'm gonna have to dredge up that coupe vs. sedan thread after all.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2002)

bluer1 said:


> *
> 
> Except that the Z8 design has had 47 years to grow on her.
> 
> ...


(Sure, make me go dig up that post from like 10 months ago to figure out the full context of what I had said....)

And it doesn't matter. I know she was not previously familiar with the 507 (nor are most people).

But I did not revive this thread and do not care to belabour the point any more at this time. Time will tell if my original psot was right or not.


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