# My D also sufffers from Fuel Injector syndrome!



## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

On Monday afternoon as I was on the way home the Check Engine light lit up and stayed on. There was no loss of power and the D drove like normal except when I stopped at the lights I could feel a slight shudder for a brief instant but it disappeared as soon as it got up to speed.

I called my dealer Endras BMW and was told to bring it in. 

When I got home I hooked up my ODB scanner to see if I could find out what's wrong but as luck would have it the scanner wouldn't lit up and I could not connect to it via either my Nexus 7 tablet or my Galaxy Note!:dunno:

Tuesday morning I drove the D to the dealer and waited as they ran some diagnostics.
Meanwhile I checked out the other vehicles in the show room. My CA was in and chatted with me about the exciting new Diesel models that will be coming this Summer.

Two hours later the SA came with the bad news that one of my fuel injectors has sprung a leak!:thumbdwn: My D has 105,000 KM (65,000 Miles) so it's out of warranty.
He showed me the estimates to replace the injector.... CAD$1,700.00 +:bawling:
He said the best he could do is 5% off..
I calmly asked him to call BMW Canada to see if the parts can be covered out of good will?
I said the fuel injector failure on the 335d is getting quite common in the USA and expressed my disappointment on the quality of this component and that it is possible that the other injectors may also fail in the near future.

During my discussion with my CA earlier I had mentioned I was very happy with my D (that was before I knew the injector failure) and will keep it for many more years. I also mentioned that my ML350 BT lease will be up in 2014 June and might consider getting the new X5 or the 328d Touring to replace the ML then.
But if BMW's Diesel engine continues to have such issues I'll likely trade in my D for a new E350BT instead!

Today the SA called to say that BMW has agreed to cover the costs of the parts while I pay for the labour ($600+)

I am glad that BMW is standing behind it's product and will certainly keep my D for now.

So it looks like getting the extended warranty would be a good idea for those who wants to keep the D beyond the BMW warranty.
Unfortunately for me because of the high mileage I put it through I opted not the get the extended warranty.
However I bought the D as a company vehicle so at least the maintenance costs are a tax write off.

I wonder how many cases of fuel injector failures are there in US + Canada?
I hope to get my D back tomorrow.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

This sucks DC. I never even had to think about getting the extended warranty because I had a "feeling" that something will go on a performance type of vehicle. For me it was a no brainer. I bought by 2009 D in Aug/2011 with only 3,800 kms on it. Last June I was at 20,000 kms when my original warranty was up so I bought the extended warranty and then 2-3 weeks later I got into limp mode and my air intake manifold was replaced. I only owe $2,000 on the car (6 payments of $333 left) and then I'll own it outright so the extended warranty was a no brainer for me as I intend to keep the car for awhile.


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

My 2010 D is in for the same thing right now -- leaking injector #4. I'm at 52k with an extended warranty so it's covered but it's also troubling.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Wonder which fuel injector cracked. If it was #1, the one in front of the car/engine, it may be partly due to temperature changes from the freezing weather as well as vibration. The fuel line itself may be somewhat fragile.

This is what I thought caused my E320 CDI injector to fail. Its position was such that it was the one to get the most changes in temperature. 

The high pressure fuel system of common rail diesel direct injection motors has been an issue for motor-heads predicting longevity, and its not just the high pressure fuel pump.

PL


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

wow BMW came to bat for you thats great!!


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Axel61 said:


> wow BMW came to bat for you thats great!!


North America is the first region to get our version of the emissions system, so in a way, we 335d owners are the "guinea pigs" for BMW. Its OK with me, but emissions related items should be covered if they are to be honest and forthright anyway.

PL


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

I am really sorry and I hope in future you dont see more problems with your D.



DC-IT said:


> During my discussion with my CA earlier I had mentioned I was very happy with my D (that was before I knew the injector failure) and will keep it for many more years. I also mentioned that my ML350 BT lease will be up in 2014 June and might consider getting the new X5 or the 328d Touring to replace the ML then.
> But if BMW's Diesel engine continues to have such issues I'll likely trade in my D for a new E350BT instead!


I think this is why BMWCA or dealer waived off parts cost. They know you get atleast 1 new vehicle an year. For a guy like me who buys 1 vehicle in every 4-5 years they wouldnt be interested in pooling some repair expenses.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

I hope I get the same TREATMENT down here in Puerto Rico AUTOGERMANA is known for running over customers we'll see what happens when time comes!!


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

Axel61 said:


> I hope I get the same TREATMENT down here in Puerto Rico AUTOGERMANA is known for running over customers we'll see what happens when time comes!!


Get out the lube, Amigo!


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## SennaVProst (Apr 9, 2011)

GreekboyD said:


> Get out the lube, Amigo!


:rofl:


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## zach0726 (Oct 23, 2011)

Does anyone have a sense of if the fuel injectors failures are related to fuel quality / dirty fuel at all, or are they primarily mechanical/design failures?


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

zach0726 said:


> Does anyone have a sense of if the fuel injectors failures are related to fuel quality / dirty fuel at all, or are they primarily mechanical/design failures?


Hard to tell. For weeks I've been trying to track down the manufacturer of these injectors (It's not Bosch but Continental). Supposedly these injectors are used in US diesel light duty pickups and as some cab attest failure isn't uncommon. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these truck owners also had secondary filtration as well. I'm going to chalk it up to poor quality parts.

I've been wondering if one should replace all 6 when there is a failure.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

Furthermore, when they are replaced does BMW use the same injector. Isn't that pointless assuming that the quality might be lacking?

How common is this issue on European Ds where the diesel fuel is generally of higher quality? That would maybe gives us a better understanding if it's correlated to fuel quality.

P.S. I remember reading somewhere that a company out there made better forged injectors for our Ds. I don't remember where I read it but will look into it later at home when I'm not fornicating the K9.


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

GreekboyD said:


> Furthermore, when they are replaced does BMW use the same injector. Isn't that pointless assuming that the quality might be lacking?
> 
> How common is this issue on European Ds where the diesel fuel is generally of higher quality? That would maybe gives us a better understanding if it's correlated to fuel quality.
> 
> P.S. I remember reading somewhere that a company out there made better forged injectors for our Ds. I don't remember where I read it but will look into it later at home when I'm not fornicating the K9.


I got a remanufactured injector with my warranty repair. FP# 13-53-7-808-094 if that means anything to anyone. $562.52 with a 50 dollar core.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

$1,700 (or even $600) of out-of pocket repairs on a car with 65K miles? Yikes! My Dad's last Oldsmobile (a '95) didn't incur any kind of noteworthy repair bill until it reached 95K miles...and,thanks to his advanced age at the time,he didn't even do the standard maintenence (as we found out later).


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

zach0726 said:


> Does anyone have a sense of if the fuel injectors failures are related to fuel quality / dirty fuel at all, or are they primarily mechanical/design failures?


As I was reading the OP's post that's the first thing that occured to me...that BMW Canada would claim "fuel quality".


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Hard to tell. For weeks I've been trying to track down the manufacturer of these injectors (It's not Bosch but Continental). Supposedly these injectors are used in US diesel light duty pickups and as some cab attest failure isn't uncommon. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these truck owners also had secondary filtration as well. I'm going to chalk it up to poor quality parts.
> 
> I've been wondering if one should replace all 6 when there is a failure.
> 
> Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


If the engine had high miles or you knew the failure was due to bad fuel, I would think you would need to have all the injectors replaced.

Anybody have a clue what the expected lifetime of the fuel injectors are?

And what would a complete set cost to replace?


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## zach0726 (Oct 23, 2011)

Flyingman said:


> If the engine had high miles or you knew the failure was due to bad fuel, I would think you would need to have all the injectors replaced.
> 
> Anybody have a clue what the expected lifetime of the fuel injectors are?
> 
> And what would a complete set cost to replace?


That's a good point.

Keeping all this in mind, I've pretty much made up my mind to get an extended warranty. I'm not too concerned about the non-d specific equipment. Its stuff like this.


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## DnA Diesel (Jul 31, 2010)

DC, good to hear that Endras worked free parts. I actually got a 6/160K extended through them for less than an injector. I'll be taking it in for a brake fluid change and the EGR and SCR valve soon. Did you have any other signs that in retrospect, might have been indicators to the impending failure? Ticking or anything?

If I have any issues with anything I won't be shy about mentioning to my CA that my wife is quire interested in the GLK 250 BlueTec that just came out...X3 should have a diesel but doesn't... 

Cheers
D.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Thanks Guys for all the replies/comments and support.
My apologies for not posting today as I've had a crazy busy day at work and did not have any time to post but I did sneak a peak using Tapatalk on my cell but was too busy to post any update.

BTW, at 4.30 PM my SA called to inform that the D won't be ready today as they had some technical difficulties to complete the job! He did not elaborate and I told him to take all the time they need as long as the D is properly fixed and to give it lots of TLC!
I did not ask for a loaner as it was a drop in service repair on Monday and in any case I prefer to drive my ML rather than a gasser loaner.

I asked the SA if he knows which injector has sprung a leak and he said he didn't know but would find out for me. He hopes to have the D fix by tomorrow.

@ GreekboyD: I didn't get extended warranty 'cos I drive over 65,000 KM per year and Endras quoted me $3,500 for 6 years/160,000 KM. I did get the rims and tires plus leather coverage but have so far not needed to lodge any claim.
My D was a special order as when I was looking non had the options + colour I wanted.
I paid CAD $ 57,000.00 + 13% HST ($64,410.00) cash which is why I'm disappointed at the injector failures that are cropping up.

@ Pierre Louis: Will know tomorrow which injector is leaking. I guess us D drivers gets the honour to field test the engine for BMW here in NA!

@ Axel61 and bimmerdiesel: If I didn't ask my SA to contact BMW I would have to foot the bill myself! I guess it pays to ask as they can only say NO but then BMW would have lost me as a customer as I would trade in the D for the new M-B E250 BlueTEC (190 hp/369 lb-ft). For now I'll drive the D till next June and see if another injector fails!
I don't think I'll invest any more $$ on a BMW Diesel after the D experience.

@ zach0726 & BMWTurboDzl: I'll ask the SA or the Service Manager if fuel quality is a suspect in these injector failures although I doubt that is the case as I have not heard of any injector failures in M-B or VW or Audi although I could be wrong. 
BMW or the extended warranty certainly would not replace all 6 injectors just 'cos one has failed as that would be to cost prohibitive @ $800+ per injector + labour ($680 for my 1 injector)!

@ Listerone: How's your E350BT holding up? I originally paid a $2,000 deposit to advance order it in 2009 but M-B Canada did not release the Diesel till late 2010 thus I cancelled my order and got the D instead.

@ DnA Diesel: You paid less than $1,700 for the 6/160,000 KM extended warranty! Endras quoted me $3,500! I guess they thought that since I paid cash for my D I might pay MSRP for the warranty!
The GLK 250BT is very tempting since M-B is claiming that it'll cover over 1,100 KM per tank of 59 L (5.36 L/100KM)!
M-B CA informed me that the E250BT will be available later this year so I might trade in my D for that and buy my ML350BT when the lease is up next June.

Thanks all for the comments and support. I'll post back when I get my D back from the dealer with updated info.

I just want a reliable car. Is that too much to ask of BMW?

Cheers.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

listerone said:


> $1,700 (or even $600) of out-of pocket repairs on a car with 65K miles? Yikes! My Dad's last Oldsmobile (a '95) didn't incur any kind of noteworthy repair bill until it reached 95K miles...and,thanks to his advanced age at the time,he didn't even do the standard maintenence (as we found out later).


I'd like to point out that I just did a 60K service on my 335d and spent around $1200 on: Fuel filter, oil change & filter, diff fluid change, alignment, and the big one $800 on transmission fluid change (fluid alone was over $400). These are not inexpensive cars to maintain and fix.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

floydarogers said:


> I'd like to point out that I just did a 60K service on my 335d and spent around $1200 on: Fuel filter, oil change & filter, diff fluid change, alignment, and the big one $800 on transmission fluid change (fluid alone was over $400). These are not inexpensive cars to maintain and fix.


Yes,I understand that routine maintenence is quite expensive.It's part of the price one pays when opting for a finely engineered machine.My post was meant as a comment on unexpected *repairs*.


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## listerone (Jul 21, 2009)

DC-IT said:


> @ Listerone: How's your E350BT holding up? I originally paid a $2,000 deposit to advance order it in 2009 but M-B Canada did not release the Diesel till late 2010 thus I cancelled my order and got the D instead.


Apart from a Federally madated recall (leakey fuel filter) it's been 100%.Of course I'm a pretty low mileage guy...I work mainly at home and commute by public transportation when going to the office.I'm nearing two years and 21K miles with my Bluetec,about 90% of those miles are on the Interstate at 70mph.Nice,nice car...quite different from the "d" (obviously).However,I *do* miss that torque that the "d" delivered when one even *brushes* the accelerator.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Update on my D repair work.
The #4 injector was replaced and I got it back at 3.30 pm today.

I took it on a 60 KM round trip to see a client and on the way back when I was almost home the dreaded "check engine" light lit up again! {


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

DC-IT said:


> Update on my D repair work.
> The #4 injector was replaced and I got it back at 3.30 pm today.
> 
> I took it on a 60 KM round trip to see a client and on the way back when I was almost home the dreaded "check engine" light lit up again! {


This is exactly what happened to me. Brought it back and they kept it another day to "reprogram the computer to tell it the injector had been changed." They took it for a 30 mile test drive -- Does that seem excessive to anyone else? -- and said it's good to go. I'm skeptical.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

listerone said:


> Apart from a Federally madated recall (leakey fuel filter) it's been 100%.Of course I'm a pretty low mileage guy...I work mainly at home and commute by public transportation when going to the office.I'm nearing two years and 21K miles with my Bluetec,about 90% of those miles are on the Interstate at 70mph.Nice,nice car...quite different from the "d" (obviously).However,I *do* miss that torque that the "d" delivered when one even *brushes* the accelerator.


Frankly right now I'd sacrifice the TQ for a more sedate but trouble free vehicle!
Of my D will make it through till the launch of the E250BT I will likely trade it in. Sigh...

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

ShawnB said:


> This is exactly what happened to me. Brought it back and they kept it another day to "reprogram the computer to tell it the injector had been changed." They took it for a 30 mile test drive -- Does that seem excessive to anyone else? -- and said it's good to go. I'm skeptical.


I hope that's all there is to it as I don't have the time to keep visiting the dealer!

I asked the SA whether the rest of the injectors will follow the same fate and he said hopefully not and to just replace them when needed!

I also asked if the transmission fluid should be flushed and changed and he said it's sealed for life and not required for the Canadian model!

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

DC-IT said:


> So it looks like getting the extended warranty would be a good idea for those who wants to keep the D beyond the BMW warranty.


I've never been one for buying extended warranties, but my X5 has had enough problems that I'm thinking I should either get an extended warranty or get rid of it when I hit the end of my warranty this Fall. BMW repairs are quite expensive, particularly when the tech start throwing expensive parts at the problems, rather than diagnosing and testing, e.g., while under warranty the dealer firs replaced both power struts on the rear hatch as it wasn't working. After this $700+ "repair," it still didn't work. So he then found the control module submerged in water and replaced it for another $200+. I suspect there was nothing wrong with the original power struts, but as long as BMW is paying, I'm not going to complain. But I sure can see an unpleasant discussion with the SA if they did this after the warranty period and it was done out of my pocket.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

When I was adding an SUV I almost got the X5 but went with the ML which in hind sight was the safer choice.


Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

*Update: MORE BAD NEWS!!!*

Today I sent my D back to Endras as the SES is still on after the injector was replaced.
I was given a F30 loaner with only 500 KM to drive.

Around noon I got the bad news from my SA:

The engine is clogged with carbon deposits and require major work to clean out and replacement of the intake manifold,gasket set cylinder, cylinder head gasket, o-ring, gasket ring etc. Machine shop cleaning costing $500.00 is also required.

The total cost of the repair is over $7,700.00!
As before BMW has agreed to cover the costs of the parts.

I have written to BMW Canada to express my disappointment on the issues I'm having.

Looks like I'll be driving the F30 till the end of the month as the parts are on back order and the job requires over 5 days to complete.

It sure looks like I'll be trading in the D for the E250 BlueTec in the near future.

BTW, there is also another 2010 335D in Endras having the exact same issues as mine!!!
That D only has 97,000 KM and had injector # 2 replaced and the SES also stayed on and now also has carbon deposits issues.

So all you D owners better make sure you get extended warranty and be prepared.
According to the SA, the issue is the diesel fuel injection system allows carbon deposit to clogged up the intake manifold? :dunno:

I asked if adding injector cleaner additives would help and he said no!

Stay tuned...


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

That sucks DC. Sorry to hear that man. I've already had my intake manifold replaced and I was at just barely over 21,000 kms or so.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

GreekboyD said:


> That sucks DC. Sorry to hear that man. I've already had my intake manifold replaced and I was at just barely over 21,000 kms or so.


@ 21,000 km! that's too premature?

I also asked the SA if using V-Power grade Diesel would help keep prevent carbon deposit and he said "No, it's not the fuel."

I haven't heard of this happening in a Mercedes BlueTec or a VW TDI so it's a BMW issue.
Hopefully the new models will have this resolved.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

DC-IT said:


> @ 21,000 km! that's too premature?
> 
> I also asked the SA if using V-Power grade Diesel would help keep prevent carbon deposit and he said "No, it's not the fuel."
> 
> ...


Good point but how prevalent is this with the European diesel Bimmers? Would be nice to have a better idea because if it's primarily a North American issue then the fuel quality would have to play a role in it for sure.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

No info on European BMW Diesels with similar issues but there are enough cases here in US and Canada to cause concern about the durability of our Ds.
Especially the Indy shops have no ability to replace our injectors as they don't have the tools and knowledge to service our engines.

The SA said our diesel fuel is not the issue as otherwise I'm sure M-B and VW will have numerous cases seeing as they have introduced Diesel vehicles much earlier than BMW.

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

DC-IT said:


> Today I sent my D back to Endras as the SES is still on after the injector was replaced.
> I was given a F30 loaner with only 500 KM to drive.
> 
> ...................
> ...


I had injector #2 replaced twice. On the 3th time, same injector and same error code. The dealer opened a PUMA case. BMWNA instructed to clear the fault and update the car software to level E89X-12-07-508

The diagnostic is software bug and problem of cummunication between ECU. So far, it has been 3 weeks now without an injector failure.

I posted the problem in this thread: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7436329&postcount=12


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

montr said:


> I had injector #2 replaced twice. On the 3th time, same injector and same error code. The dealer opened a PUMA case. BMWNA instructed to clear the fault and update the car software to level E89X-12-07-508
> 
> The diagnostic is software bug and problem of cummunication between ECU. So far, it has been 3 weeks now without an injector failure.
> 
> I posted the problem in this thread: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7436329&postcount=12


Thanks montr.
I'll print out your case and give it to my SA for review to see if it'll work for my D.

But has your D been checked for carbon build up issues?


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Sounds to me that #2 fuel injector is OUR problem, damn this sheit is bothering me Im going to AUTOGERMANA and speak to the head HONCHO about this when I come back from my training.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

My D is still at the dealer since 15th March!
I've been driving an F30 328xi since then. While the F30 is a nice/upgraded design the 4 cyl engine is not as economical nor powerful as our D.
I've now driven 3,000 KM on the F30 and am sure I will not buy one. The auto stop/start feature is annoying although it can be turned off manually but it reactivates on restart.
The shudder of the engine after you stopped at the lights is very noticeable thus degrading the ride experience.

The last tank of gas only got me 24.3 MPG compared to the 30.8 MPG average on my D.
The previous tank was around 27 MPG but overall it's not as economical as our 3.0L D and I had to use the Eco-Pro mode most of the time to achieve that.
In Eco-Pro you might as well be driving a Prius Hybrid as the fun is all gone!

Out of frustration last Saturday I went to test drive the new2014 Mazda6 GT.
Man the 6 is not a bad car and it's NAV is far superior to the BMW's. To add a destination via voice command you only have to say the entire address in one sentence instead of City, Street then House number.
It also says the name of the street you are turning into and the display shows the lane to turn into.
The only draw back it the small screen compare to the huge one on the BMW.
The performance and handling of the 6 is not bad too.

I told the CA to call me when the SkyActiv Diesel is out this Fall so I can do a test drive.

Meanwhile I'll have to keep driving the F30 loaner till my D is fixed and I expect by then I might have 4~5,000 KM on it!


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Have they given you any updates on why it's taking so long to fix your D? At this point you're going on a month in the shop.

The new Mazda 6 has gotten rave reviews so far. I'm hoping that they will decide to bring the wagon to the US but I'm not holding my breath.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Today the SA called to inform me that they just received the parts from Germany.
They can now start work on my D and will try and get it ready by the end of the week.


Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## DZLMoose (Jun 16, 2012)

DC-IT said:


> Today the SA called to inform me that they just received the parts from Germany.
> They can now start work on my D and will try and get it ready by the end of the week.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


I was just in today and the shop foreman told me there is another D in for the same issues as yours. Seems like the 100k mark is when these issues start creeping up in Canada.

Good luck man.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

So it looks like our Canadian Diesel fuel which is supposed to be better than the USA didn't make any difference and our D is still affected by these failures.

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

DC-IT said:


> So it looks like our Canadian Diesel fuel which is supposed to be better than the USA didn't make any difference and our D is still affected by these failures.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


My very limited experience with one fuel injector failure in a previous CR diesel seems to indicate that temperature fluctuations affecting the delicate injector nozzles may be a factor. But what do I know?!

Fuel in Canada may have more kerosene as a percentage too. Just guessing.

That the fuel is better in Canada is also in the league of "some guy on the Internet says..."

PL


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## DZLMoose (Jun 16, 2012)

DC-IT said:


> So it looks like our Canadian Diesel fuel which is supposed to be better than the USA didn't make any difference and our D is still affected by these failures.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


It would be interesting to know how many incidents of this have happened in the UK.

If it happening in the UK then does that mean alllll the fuel is bad?


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

Well, I suppose it was bound to happen again. Just wish it hadn't been so soon. SES light came on while driving down 95 to NYC last week. The code came back as a fuel injector but I won't know which one until the SA gets the car. 

Frustrating because the car is running very well and shows no signs of having a problem.


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## DZLMoose (Jun 16, 2012)

You should check out this thread of at E90post

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13750652#post13750652


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Looks like this issue is more common than we think and yet BMW hasn't come out with the solution.
Furthermore parts are not readily available as it took over two Weeks to get mine.
This doesn't bode well, and I have no confidence they my D will not have any more injector leaks.

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

*BMW Advanced Diesel Technology - FAQ*

From BMWUSANews.com some time around the introduction of the 335d in North America:
BMW Advanced Diesel Technology - FAQ

Is the widely varying Cetane level of U.S. diesel fuel, as compared to European diesel fuel, a problem? How does the engine compensate for this difference? Although a Cetane level of 51 will produce optimum performance in BMW Advanced Diesel models, the engine software is capable of adapting to various Cetane levels.
.....
Discuss durability of diesel engines vs. gasoline engines please. Diesels have a long history of durability because the fuel is more similar to oil than gasoline and far less cylinder wall wear is typical. There are no spark plugs and the electronics are designed to be trouble free. A diesel engine is built more robustly to take the higher combustion pressures so overall they are expected to last a long time. ......
Some other manufacturers say their injection pressures are higher than the 18,000psi stated. Comment - Bosch 3rd generation CRD system?
As stated in the news conference, our new diesels operate at 1800 bar, or approximately 26,000psi. Higher operating pressures are constantly in development.
Are the maintenance requirement intervals similar for BMW gasoline and diesel engines?
Yes.
*What is the expected lifetime of the fuel injectors?
It's too early to answer this question, but keep in mind the injectors are not considered maintenance items.
Are fuel injectors susceptible to fouling over time?
This is unlikely if clean fuel that meets industry specifications is used.
Is diesel a clean enough fuel source so that we don't have to worry about it degrading/affecting the performance of the fuel injection system?
Clean fuel from a reliable source is very important for any engine.*
Does BMW foresee meeting future emissions requirements without SCR, by improving combustion/engine-out emissions?
BMW is working hard to make improvements that save costs and minimize consumer inconvenience, but for now the catalysts are still needed.
How will you cope with the wide variety in Cetane ratings in ULSD fuels across the US, Canada, Mexico?
The systems will adjust up to certain ranges but *buying fuel from a clean and reliable source is very important.*
What added technology (or technologies) needs to exist before diesel engines will be clean enough to pass 50-state emissions regulations without the need for a Urea fluid sprayed into the exhaust stream?
Currently, selective catalytic reduction (SCR) via injection of Diesel Exhaust Fluid is the best available technology for controlling NOX emissions on diesel vehicles.
Is BMW developing diesel technology that could meet emissions rules without needing urea, even in larger engines?
"Cleaner and more efficient" is a core principal of BMW EfficientDynamics, but there are no breakthroughs to announce at this time.
How often will the particulate filter need to be changed?
It's a maintenance-free device that regenerates automatically as needed, depending on driving conditions. Use of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel from a reliable source is very important.
How will scheduled maintenance be different (schedule wise, etc) than gasoline?
It will be very similar.
Will the X5 diesel have a water separator?
No.
..............
What is depreciation on diesels?
Typically diesel models have a higher resale value than gasoline models due to their efficiency advantages and *robustness of their components*. At this time we do not have depreciation figures to communicate for the BMW Advanced Diesel models.
..................
How have you prepared BMW service technicians in the U.S. for diesel engines, an engine type with which they are not familiar?
BMW of North America has taken a 3-level approach to train technicians for BMW Advanced Diesel. In autumn 2007, we rolled out web-based training on basic diesel operation (Level 1). For Level 2, we brought technicians in for an instructor-led two-day course on basic diesel operation, wherein we discussed mechanical differences between the two engine types, and provided systems training on turbochargers, common rail direct injection, exhaust emissions treatment, etc. Finally, starting in July 2008, technicians have been attending the "Advanced Diesel" instructor-led course (2 days), To-date we have trained more than 1 technician per center to this 3rd level. The Advanced Diesel course specifically concentrates on systems unique to the BMW 335d and X5 xDrive35d. Diagnostics, vehicle operation, and specific services and repairs are covered at this level. Simultaneously, non-technical personnel (Service Advisors, etc.) have attended the web-based (Level 1) version of this technical training by way of training requirement
....................
With all of the benefits diesel has to offer over gasoline, do you ever see a point in the future where gasoline becomes obsolete for BMW?
As you may know, diesel drivetrains account for roughly half of BMW's annual vehicle sales in Europe, thanks to the benefits you referenced. Only time will tell what the regulatory and market-driven mandates will be for the future of diesel vehicles. For now, BMW feels diesel vehicles are a good way to offer US consumers a fresh choice: vehicles that feature V8 performance with the operating efficiency of a 6-cylinder.
.....................
Why not bring over your more efficient single turbo diesel to maximize fuel economy, at least as an option?
The twin-turbo, direct injection, aluminum 6-cylinder diesel engine currently provides the best balance between responsive, V8-like performance and increased fuel efficiency. BMW will continue to explore multiple engine options for the US market.
Is the 335d going to be offered with a manual transmission as well in the near future?
There are no plans to do so at this time. The twin-turbo diesel engine is best suited to the sporting characteristics and torque-handling capacity of the automatic transmission from BMW's V8 engines.
............
We look forward to seeing how American customers respond to the first two BMW Advanced Diesel models. We're considering the next steps, but it's too soon to predict what comes next. A big part of BMW's success is the willingness to consider customer feedback in all of BMW's future model plans.
Can we please know all of the particular standard equipment specifications that come on 335d and X5 xDrive35d for North America?
Please reference www.bmwusa.com for complete information.
Were the dealers a key part of finally getting your diesel powertrains into North America?
Or was it a company decision and the dealers needed convincing? BMW dealers and customers have encouraged the introduction of BMW Advanced Diesel to the US market.
Fuel prices are all over the place. How does this affect BMW's ability to commit to a full-range diesel effort and make the financials of it work?
BMW's middle name is "motor" and BMW has the ability to offer different drivetrain types to suit consumer demand. BMW will continue to explore multiple engine options for the US market.
Does BMW really feel confident in a high-volume diesel rebirth in North America, or will you also be bringing us hybrid variants?
BMW diesel engines are efficient, powerful, and well-established worldwide, but hybrid vehicles can also bring specific advantages in the areas of dynamic performance and efficiency.
Why have you stuck with the top-end x35d engine instead of bringing the outstanding new 3.0d engine some of us tried recently in Europe in the new 330d?
We have no confirmed plans beyond the 335d and X5 xDrive35d however many, including the US EPA, have recognized the role that diesel can play in reducing reliance on foreign sources of oil and reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. Given BMW's well established diesel expertise, we have a number of options to draw from if the market demands.
...............
Who holds patents on this technology and did BMW have to license it?
BMW's diesel engine specialists in Steyr, Austria developed BMW's Advanced Diesel technology working with a number of partners, including Bosch.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

I think I may replace all of them if I have a failure.

Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> I think I may replace all of them if I have a failure.
> 
> Sent from my MB525 using Bimmer App


It costs $3,000.00 + to replace one!
I wonder how much to replace all six?
Then some have repeated failures on injector #2!

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## DZLMoose (Jun 16, 2012)

DC-IT said:


> It costs $3,000.00 + to replace one!
> I wonder how much to replace all six?
> Then some have repeated failures on injector #2!
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


Hey DC.

I think your car is ready. It's sitting out front.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

No one called me!
Maybe they need to test drive it to make sure it's fixed properly?
That wax what the SA told me last Friday.

Meanwhile the F30 is piling on the KM.
Currently it's I've 4,200 KM!

Thanks for letting me know. I'll call my SA.
What were you doing at Endras? 

Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## DZLMoose (Jun 16, 2012)

DC-IT said:


> No one called me!
> Maybe they need to test drive it to make sure it's fixed properly?
> That wax what the SA told me last Friday.
> 
> ...


I went in for a re-alignment after they replaced my steering rack.

Funny thing happened, the tech chipped one of my freshly powder coated 193M's so I had to put my winters back on. They should have rim repaired by next Thursday.

I guess it's not too bad this happened because we are supposed to get an ice storm tomorrow.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

What's wrong with your steering?
Did they do any battery connector recall on your D?
I mentioned it to my SA and he said he'll check to see if the recall affects our D.

I called Endras but my SA has gone for the day. I also called my CA and he was surprised my D is still at the shop! he said he'll ask the SM.
I guess my D is no ready to be released just yet.
I'll check tomorrow.


Sent from my SGH-I717D using Bimmer App


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

I just picked up my D.
Here's what was done:
No other injector was replaced and the check engine light was diagnosed as caused by carbon build-up on intake manifold and swirl ports.
The intake manifold and associates parts (gaskets/o-rings/anti-freeze etc) were replaced.
The cylinder head was stripped and clean off carbon build-up.
The tech did test drive over the last two days and is satisfied that the issue is resolved.

My D was in the shop for 25 days and I was provided with an F30 328xi loaner which I drove for 4,000 KM in the mean time.

I was told that the D should be free of carbon build-up for another 100,000 KM!
Also BMW will warranty the parts for 2 years.

The sales manager came to chat with me and I expressed my concern about the relaibility of BMW Diesel power train.
She said our D was the first Diesel introduced in NA and the carbon build-up could be due to a combination of factors: our Diesel fuel + adverse weather conditions.
But she was confident that the new 4 cylinder Diesel in the F30 328d should be an improved power train.
She asked me to come see her in a couple of months when the new 328d is available and she'll work out a deal for me to trad in my D.
I told her I'll see if my D has any further issues for the next few months and said that I am seriously considering switching over to an E250BT when it's available!
She said to give her a chance to try and keep me with BMW and I said we shall see when the time comes.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks for the update.

So it looks like BMW anticipates this major (and expensive) engine work every 50-60k miles?


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

3ismagic# said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> So it looks like BMW anticipates this major (and expensive) engine work every 50-60k miles?


That sure defeats/nullifies the advantage of the FE of a Diesel!

We're better off getting gasser with less expensive repairs.

Mercedes has been selling Diesels since the W211 and now W212 E Class but I've not heard of any similar issues like our D.


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

DC-IT said:


> I just picked up my D.
> Here's what was done:
> ....................
> She said our D was the first Diesel introduced in NA and the carbon build-up could be due to a combination of factors: our Diesel fuel + adverse weather conditions.
> ...


Blame it on the fuel not the BMW engineering. I think I have seen this before. For a long time BMW was blaming the NA fuel for the HPFP failure on the 335i.

On the 335D, the fuel is not even passing by the intake valve or swirl flap, it is a direct injection.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

My $.02:

I find the discussions on carbon buildup isolated and inconsistent with knowledge of current diesel design.

BMW dealers, not considered expert in diesel engines at least in North America, seem to be replacing engine parts that other manufacturers and private mechanics usually just clean.

Intake manifold carbon buildup is well known in modern diesels and is thought to be mostly from EGR and other design effects especially when the engine is not used under full load. Fuel economy under full load does not suffer as proportionately as gasser efficiency.

Except for a few postings on BMW web boards, there is no mention of problems with carbon buildup that singles out BMW diesels anywhere. Granted, BMW has a history of "pushing the envelope" in the engine design/cost equation.

In France, Peugeot diesels are known to build up carbon if you baby them too much in just city traffic. VW and to a certain extent Mercedes have had information on how to clean up intake manifolds for years. Here is a site for example where there is no replacing the manifold. Most engine repairs for carbon buildup are likely also not as extensive as what BMW dealer service departments mentioned in these posts. Its not unusual for dealers in general to eagerly replace parts and have a rather large repair bill in my experience.

As far as BMW engineering and diesels, they have an excellent reputation in Europe as currently more than half their cars are sold with diesel engines.

BMW dealers probably do their best to fulfill customer satisfaction at their own benefit: Think of it: its a win-win for the dealer. They can make the car "new again," charge enormous repair fees, and sometimes scare the customer into either buying an extended warranty or better yet, trade in the car for another. I've noticed one difference between BMW owners and those of other German marques: BMW owners seem to go through a lot more cars more often, and BMW is not known for its longevity or reliability. Dealers must be used to this!

Better to speak with a private mechanic about carbon buildup, keep the car in top shape, and put it to full load - drive it like you stole it. Prolonged highway cruising seems to be a risk factor. Put the best fuel in it you can find!

Cheers,

PL


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

Excellent post PL and I agree. They replaced my intake manifold too. Actually they insisted on it!


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

ShawnB said:


> Latest update, they have diagnosed Carbon Buildup as the cause and opened a PUMA case to repair it. The only problem being that they are not authorizing the repair/replacement of the DDE. I have a call into the service manager to see if that can be fixed too. They quoted about 8k and 2 weeks to fix it (under warrantee so nothing out of pocket for me). There's a chance I could be bought out of the car as well -- I won't be sure about the details of that until this afternoon.
> 
> I've only had the car about 2.5 months and so the buyout option is intriguing. There's another 335d available that I could potentially replace with but I'd be concerned it would have the same issues.


Definitely push hard for the DDE replacement at the same time. I did not at the time (I didn't know any better) and it cost me an extra 2 weeks of waiting for the DDE to be shipped from Germany (After waiting 2 weeks for the head, then another week for the gasket). 
The buyout is interesting, if you wanted to get into another 335d I'd make sure they did a scope on the same parts to make sure no carbon buildup is forming, plus have them make sure the car is programmed up to spec and all diesel parts that have recalls have been replaced. I can't imagine the frustration if you swapped D's and it happened again.


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

SpeedyD said:


> Definitely push hard for the DDE replacement at the same time. I did not at the time (I didn't know any better) and it cost me an extra 2 weeks of waiting for the DDE to be shipped from Germany (After waiting 2 weeks for the head, then another week for the gasket).
> The buyout is interesting, if you wanted to get into another 335d I'd make sure they did a scope on the same parts to make sure no carbon buildup is forming, plus have them make sure the car is programmed up to spec and all diesel parts that have recalls have been replaced. I can't imagine the frustration if you swapped D's and it happened again.


That's the biggest reason I'm not jumping right into the swap. The car I'm looking at from Carmax is also a 2010 with 50k but it has the sport package which mine doesn't. I could always just let them buy me out with cash and buy a CPO from the dealer too. So many options.....

SA is going to go back to BMWNA with my request to have the DDE replaced as part of this repair -- I'm going to base my decision to walk away on that.


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

Well I opted to go forward with the repair even though They are not going to touch the DDE. I'll have to wait a couple weeks before I will see if it works.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

ShawnB said:


> Well I opted to go forward with the repair even though They are not going to touch the DDE. I'll have to wait a couple weeks before I will see if it works.


Good Luck ShawnB.

But that repair didn't fix the SES and when I had mine done the SES appeared again after I drove it for around 50 miles.
When I took it back I printed a post here regarding replacing the DDE which solved the SES issue and my SA was able to get BMW to agree to replace the DDE and since then no more SES for the last couple of weeks and over 1,300 miles driven so far.

It took two weeks to get the DDE shipped from Germany!


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## ddeliber (Jan 31, 2013)

It looks like they have the super top secret service guide and are following it line by line. Many of those lines really seem to include, pretty and eloquent language that essentially say "make them come back twice for this and 3 times for the next one etc..." Sure I am overstating things, but how many times does it take (with more and more upset customers) for them to remove a couple of those intermediate steps. My problem with this is that I don't have the time for all of this back and forth (and I don't think I am unique here or anything). Now I don't have the issues that you guys are seeing, but the pattern that I am seeing (and not just from our d's) is what is bugging me.


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

It's my impression that they are trying to figure out the root cause for this still and they are following a playbook for diagnosing/repairing. I don't really like being a guinea pig but I feel like I have little choice but to abide. I'll keep y'all up to date on the progress.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

ddeliber said:


> It looks like they have the super top secret service guide and are following it line by line. Many of those lines really seem to include, pretty and eloquent language that essentially say "make them come back twice for this and 3 times for the next one etc..." Sure I am overstating things, but how many times does it take (with more and more upset customers) for them to remove a couple of those intermediate steps. My problem with this is that I don't have the time for all of this back and forth (and I don't think I am unique here or anything). Now I don't have the issues that you guys are seeing, but the pattern that I am seeing (and not just from our d's) is what is bugging me.


Enough failures which are reported to the NHTSA will get the ball rolling.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

*Latest Update: All's GOOD.*

I've driven over 3,000 miles since the DDE was replaced and so far no SES.

Below is the service report from BMW FYI:


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Badness. One minor good thing is that the DDE (ECU) is covered by the Federal emissions warranty until 8Y/80K (along with the SCR catalyst).

Certainly looks like they have a weak design/build problem in the DDE board for the injector electronics.


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

Is the 8Y/80K applicable to all 50 state? GA?


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Unfortunately 80,000 miles doesn't go very far for a Diesel vehicle which tends to be driven long distances on highways.

Also based on the BMW service report, there is a reluctance to replace the DDE until numerous attempts at replacing injectors + intake manifold + cleaning carbon deposits and more repaeted tests as evident in my case.

I wondered if the DDE had been replaced in the first place my D would have been fixed right away?
Since my D was out of warranty I had to incur over $3,800.00 in labour costs while BMW provided the parts.
Fortunately, the last repair (replacing the DDE) was provided at no charge.

On another note my iDrive showed that my brake fluids had to be flushed and replaced a few days earlier.
I called the dealer and was quoted $150.00 for the job.

I have a customer who operates an auto repair shop and he offered to do the service for me.
I went there today and the job was done within an hour.
I Googled how to reset the iDrive Service Indicator and reset it myself.

While I was waiting for the service he asked if I could help install an accounting software on his computer which I did and updated his anitvirus software.

When it's time to settle up I asked for the bill and he said "NO CHARGE" since I wasn't going to charge him also.

He said he can change my brakes when the time comes.
The iDrive said my rear brakes are due for service in 5,000 KM but when he did my brake fluid flush he also checked my brakes and said they are in excellent shape and may not need to be replaced so soon!


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

DC-IT said:


> Unfortunately 80,000 miles doesn't go very far for a Diesel vehicle which tends to be driven long distances on highways.
> 
> Also based on the BMW service report, there is a reluctance to replace the DDE until numerous attempts at replacing injectors + intake manifold + cleaning carbon deposits and more repaeted tests as evident in my case.
> 
> ...


Good decision on the brake flush. No need to pay top dollar for it if you have another option.

For the brakes...the indicator is just a computer estimate. I had my brakes checked at the dealer during an unrelated check-up and they said mine were in good shape and reset the indicator. When I changed my winter tires out I also checked and they were in good shape.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

@SpeedyD: Thanks.
Question about transmission fluid flush. Is it necessary and how often?
I've asked my Dealer SA about this and he said BMW said no need to change the transmission fuild. It's good for life!

My auto shop customer also said if I don't trash my D (frequent WOT at stop lights) then there's no need to change the fluid.
But here in Bimmerfest I often see others having it done.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

DC-IT, I have a friend who is a BMW top tech and he says that it's a good thing to get done if you intend to keep the car for a long while. He recommends it done at 60,000 kms. (37,000 miles)


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

GreekboyD said:


> DC-IT, I have a friend who is a BMW top tech and he says that it's a good thing to get done if you intend to keep the car for a long while. He recommends it done at 60,000 kms. (37,000 miles)


I have seen people here changing it, but most do not. Changing every 37k seems insane though.


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## 135i_vs_ (Apr 13, 2013)

DC-IT said:


> Question about transmission fluid flush. Is it necessary and how often?
> I've asked my Dealer SA about this and he said BMW said no need to change the transmission fuild. It's good for life!
> 
> My auto shop customer also said if I don't trash my D (frequent WOT at stop lights) then there's no need to change the fluid.
> But here in Bimmerfest I often see others having it done.


Not true; it should be every 100k. If I remember, this information is in your Service and Warranty booklet you have for your 335d. It also mentions its not per CSB.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

@135i_VS_: 100,000 miles i.e. 160,000 KM?

Any idea how much does the dealer charge for this?

My D is now at 110,000 KM. I'd like to keep it for the next 4+ years since it's paid for and no other comparable rides are available.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

GreekboyD said:


> DC-IT, I have a friend who is a BMW top tech and he says that it's a good thing to get done if you intend to keep the car for a long while. He recommends it done at 60,000 kms. (37,000 miles)


That's too frequent! But 100,000 Mile (160,000 KM) seems reasonable.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

DC-IT said:


> That's too frequent! But 100,000 Mile (160,000 KM) seems reasonable.


I agree.

As for the cost, you need at most 10 litres for your transmission fluid and I know here it costs $30-35 a litre so that's easily $300-350 for just the fluid.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Its been discussed before:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657530

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672353

I'll have a flush done around 40k unless I can get it analyzed first.

PL


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Flyingman said:


> Now you guys are getting me paranoid enough to want to get a look inside for myself!


If you are not having any problems I would not look for any.

If I keep this car to the 150K+ mile range as I do most others, there may need to be one intake/head cleaning procedure in that time. But I am also expecting they will perfect the process that does NOT require removal of the head with associated reasonable cost.

Here is a video of this process (sort of): 




A Mini being carbon cleaned:


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

KeithS said:


> I was talking to a dealer during a car club event they were hosting. Apparently they have a way of cleaning the head without removing it from the engine. Also there is one owner on the boards with 100K miles and no carbon issues so needing to do it every 60K is not necessarily a sure thing.


Which dealer would that be?

It had been my plan to get a "carbon detox" at around 45k, but it would be foolish to do so if there were no build up.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

Happy335dOwner said:


> Which dealer would that be?


A bit far from you, it was Circle BMW in NJ. They all seem to use the same machine and over time, this should be a standard procedure at all (BMW) dealers. Remember while the carbon issue is more pronounced in the D, it happens in all direct injected engines.


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

KeithS said:


> Ahhh. Have any 'before' pictures? Those would be interesting.
> 
> I was talking to a dealer during a car club event they were hosting. Apparently they have a way of cleaning the head without removing it from the engine. Also there is one owner on the boards with 100K miles and no carbon issues so needing to do it every 60K is not necessarily a sure thing.


I asked for the before pics but by the time he got the request the head had already been sent out. The injectors are the last part they are waiting for -- BMW authorized replacement of all 6 -- and they should arrive next Wednesday.

The more time I spend with the F30 the more I miss my 335d.


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## bimmerdiesel (Jul 9, 2010)

DC-IT said:


> Then I met my CA who showed me the pricing of the 2014 f10 535d.
> I worked out my 535d with Premium and Technology packages and it came up to over $81,000.00 MSRP.
> 
> He offered 4% discount + loyalty and said he can place the order and have the vehicle by Aug/Sept!
> ...


your d should go for another 60-70k miles without major issue. Since you like drive feel whats rush to replace it.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

bimmerdiesel said:


> your d should go for another 60-70k miles without major issue. Since you like drive feel whats rush to replace it.


You've got a good point.
The 535d has less HP and less torque than our D and will have the same issues of carbon build up!

I'll just enjoy my D for now and test drive both the 328d and 535d when they arrive.
It's going to be a fun year to test drive all the new diesel vehicles.

I'm looking forward to also test drive the Mazda 6d, GLK250bt and E250BT.

I'll likely hang on to the D AMD get another diesel when my ML lease is up next year.

Thanks.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

Continuing the saga on my end, my SA just contacted me and you can probably already guess what happened.

Head cleaned, 6 new injectors, new intake cover, same DDE. After putting some miles on the car, zero quantity adaptation SES again.

Looks like the F30 and I are going to spend a little more time together...


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

ShawnB said:


> Continuing the saga on my end, my SA just contacted me and you can probably already guess what happened.
> 
> Head cleaned, 6 new injectors, new intake cover, same DDE. After putting some miles on the car, zero quantity adaptation SES again.
> 
> Looks like the F30 and I are going to spend a little more time together...


Sorry to hear that ShawnB.
Are you saying that your DDE was already replaced before and the SES is still lit?

I also find it unbelievable that all 6 injectors are faulty!

I feel for you bro.

At this rate you'll have driven more miles on the F30 loaner than on your D!

Good luck.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that my D is now good for the next 60K miles before I need to have the carbon buildup removed.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

DC-IT said:


> Sorry to hear that ShawnB.
> Are you saying that your DDE was already replaced before and the SES is still lit?


I think he is saying the DDE was NOT replaced. Why is it apparent to us this is the common thread to the adaptation/injector issues. :dunno:


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

KeithS said:


> I think he is saying the DDE was NOT replaced. Why is it apparent to us this is the common thread to the adaptation/injector issues. :dunno:


By now BMW should have enough cases to warranty replacing the DDE when the SES starts showing up instead of throwing parts in futile attempts to fix the issues.
What a waste of 6 injectors if they are not defective.

Cleaning out carbon deposit is justified and worth the expense but not replacing injectors unnecessarily.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

DC-IT said:


> By now BMW should have enough cases to warranty replacing the DDE when the SES starts showing up instead of throwing parts in futile attempts to fix the issues.
> What a waste of 6 injectors if they are not defective.
> 
> Cleaning out carbon deposit is justified and worth the expense but not replacing injectors unnecessarily.


Exactly.


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## ddeliber (Jan 31, 2013)

DC-IT said:


> By now BMW should have enough cases to warranty replacing the DDE when the SES starts showing up instead of throwing parts in futile attempts to fix the issues.
> What a waste of 6 injectors if they are not defective.
> 
> Cleaning out carbon deposit is justified and worth the expense but not replacing injectors unnecessarily.


The question I have here is did the faulty DDE/wiring harness cause the injectors to fail or simply report that a failure that didn't exist. Has anyone had this failure and replaced the DDE/wiring harness without replacing the possibly offending injector?

OTOH is a set of new injectors (even if the old ones were ok) worth a separate trip to the dealer and some time in a loaner?


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

ddeliber said:


> The question I have here is did the faulty DDE/wiring harness cause the injectors to fail or simply report that a failure that didn't exist. Has anyone had this failure and replaced the DDE/wiring harness without replacing the possibly offending injector?
> 
> OTOH is a set of new injectors (even if the old ones were ok) worth a separate trip to the dealer and some time in a loaner?


The trouble is the dealer cannot replace any part without doing a diagnostic and the first thing BMW does is replace the suspected failed injector/s.

If your D is under warranty then BMW can replace all the parts they want for all you care as it's on their dime.

But if you're out of warranty then each injector can be $1,000.00 + labour and you won't be too happy when you have to foot the bill while they kept throwing parts at the D to try and fix this issue.

I wish there is a new case where BMW can try and swap out the DDE first before replacing the injector to see if that is the culprit.

In my case throughout the repeated SES my D was driving normal with full turbo boost and no sputtering or shudder. Only the SES lit up and stayed on.


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## ddeliber (Jan 31, 2013)

agreed. Was thinking warranty.


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## GreekboyD (Jan 25, 2012)

DC-IT said:


> The trouble is the dealer cannot replace any part without doing a diagnostic and the first thing BMW does is replace the suspected failed injector/s.
> 
> If your D is under warranty then BMW can replace all the parts they want for all you care as it's on their dime.
> 
> ...


Bang on advice. My buddy who is a BMW tech told me that they have to change the injectors first (even though they might suspect DDE issues) because it's protocol.


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## 135i_vs_ (Apr 13, 2013)

+1. Due to protocol, injectors are also changed.
In my case at one point the dealer individually tested the "failed injector (injector #4 for zero volume at min)". This injector was found to specs when it came to proper flow rates.
But hey, I don't mind 6 brand new injectors under warranty


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

From a pure customer service point of view (if the customer doesn't think technically I guess) maybe its better for dealers to replace parts that can later wear out and seem like the original repair wasn't done properly?! 

Daughter's Honda Civic had a timing belt service at 70,000 miles and 17,000 miles later the "new" gaskets that were used for the service leaked oil all over the timing belt and over the belt tensioner. We were very displeased that the Honda dealer wanted to charge for a new timing belt and not cover this obvious defect in their service or part (even though it was past the 12 month/12,000 mile warranty, it was a scheduled service item, not a repair per se - they did cut the bill in half..) and will think twice about using that dealer or any other Honda product in the future.

The reality of dealer service once explained to me by a Pontiac service manager (in the "good old days") was that 50% customer satisfaction was the norm for a service department..... pretty rough I say. I do sympathize with BMW a bit here, especially since their markup for parts is high, making the new parts not so bad for their bottom line, and the reward to the dealer is an extra benefit while the customer gets new parts that may last longer...

Just a thought.

PL


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## ShawnB (Jun 15, 2006)

So just an update and hopefully helpful going forward to anyone who deals with this in the future:

March '13 - 53k miles - SES - zero adaptation fault on injector #4, injector replaced under warranty.
April '13 - 54k miles - SES - stayed on for about 100 miles and went away.
May '13 - 56k miles - SES + engine hesitation - zero adaptation fault on injectors 2, 3, and 6, head removed for carbon cleaning, intake manifold replaced, all 6 injectors replaced under PUMA case
June '13 - 56k miles - SES - zero adaptation fault on injector #3, injector and DDE replaced under PUMA case.

300 miles later no errors -- we'll see...


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Good to hear Shawn
I've done around 4,000 miles since my DDE was replaced and still no SES.
It's beginning to look like it's the DDE and carbon build up issues.

This carbon build up issues is going to return in 50/60,000 miles and may cost over $3/4,000.00 to service!

Currently I'm in negotiations with M-B to trade in my D for the GLK 250BT.
We'll see how that goes.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

all the gas engine crowds are banding together for carbon cleaning services, the Mini crowd is getting it done for $500 though they only have the valves to do (the hardest part if its baked on). If you consider $500 for the cleaning and $750 to just buy a new manifold and make it easy, youre skating in for "just" $1250. If im spending $3000 it better get me brand new lightweight oversize valves, a good porting job, AND a new manifold for that extra $1,750 im spending. I would love to get my hands on a spare gunked up manifold to test some removal methods. Having seen how "gooey" it is, I dont think it is as baked on as the gas engines are showing up and soaking the manifold in a strong but plastic safe solvent might be a good solution.


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## SpeedyD (Sep 18, 2011)

DC-IT said:


> Good to hear Shawn
> I've done around 4,000 miles since my DDE was replaced and still no SES.
> It's beginning to look like it's the DDE and carbon build up issues.
> 
> ...


Mine was done around 39k-40k and I am now up to 63k miles. Let's see if it comes back before 100k......


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Hoooper said:


> all the gas engine crowds are banding together for carbon cleaning services, the Mini crowd is getting it done for $500 though they only have the valves to do (the hardest part if its baked on). If you consider $500 for the cleaning and $750 to just buy a new manifold and make it easy, youre skating in for "just" $1250. If im spending $3000 it better get me brand new lightweight oversize valves, a good porting job, AND a new manifold for that extra $1,750 im spending. I would love to get my hands on a spare gunked up manifold to test some removal methods. Having seen how "gooey" it is, I dont think it is as baked on as the gas engines are showing up and soaking the manifold in a strong but plastic safe solvent might be a good solution.


Carbon build up IMO is just being made a bigger deal that what it is. I have yet to read anything stating how carbon build up is causing DDE failures.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Carbon build up IMO is just being made a bigger deal that what it is. I have yet to read anything stating how carbon build up is causing DDE failures.


I haven't seen anybody trying to link the two and I doubt they are related, but they would be independent issues and the build up issue is very real. Whether or not its a "big" issue depends on the person and what they expect to get out of their car I guess.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Hoooper said:


> I haven't seen anybody trying to link the two and I doubt they are related, but they would be independent issues and the build up issue is very real. Whether or not its a "big" issue depends on the person and what they expect to get out of their car I guess.


Agreed the two are separate issues but unfortunately carbon build up is likely a recurring issue requiring service every 50~60K miles while the DDE may not fail again.
Faulty injectors may recur as they may be affected by carbon build up.

But why is it these issues are more prevalent in our 335d and not the X5 35d or the 335xi or 535xi?

Could it be our Diesel powertrain is not suited for the smaller size of our e90?
Will the F30 328d's smaller 4cyl engine be free from these issues (injectors+DDE+carbon build up)?

Since carbon build up is a wear and tear issue it's not covered by the warranty so unless you also have issues with the injectors and DDE BMW may not fix just the carbon issue under normal warranty repair.

If one is to keep the D for the long haul then paying for carbon build up service has to be factored in.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

DC-IT said:


> Agreed the two are separate issues but unfortunately carbon build up is likely a recurring issue requiring service every 50~60K miles while the DDE may not fail again.
> Faulty injectors may recur as they may be affected by carbon build up.
> 
> But why is it these issues are more prevalent in our 335d and not the X5 35d or the 335xi or 535xi?
> ...


The DDE used in our cars is the same used in the N57 diesel engine. There will always be carbon. I've been wondering if heat in the engine bay is causing the DDE to flake out for those who had the problem. The M57 doesn't have a lot of room in our cars.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

*Guess it's time to move on!*

Today I went to my M-B dealer to test drive the 2014 GLK250BlueTec with the intention of trading in my D.

The GLK's 4 cyl Diesel engine is very suited for the vehicle but whilst it has the torque to give it a spirited drive, when pushed the engine does strain and becomes quite harsh and loud.

So I decided to test drive the E350BlueTec which I had test driven three times a few years before and the V6 with 408 Lb Ft torque was definitely smoother and refined so I negotiated a great deal to buy the out going 2013 model as the new E250BT will be coming in Sept and the current powertrain will not be offered anymore.

Today is the last day of the sale where 0% financing is for 60 months is offered so I took it.
I was offered $24,000.00 for my D which is on the high side of the Black Book valuation the last time I checked. And my D has a cracked windshield too.

This time around I negotiated to include extended warranty to 160,000 KM (100,000 miles).
The list price for the extended warranty is $3,500.00 I offered to pay $1,200.00 or else I won't close the deal and the Sales Manager took it.
I also added tire & rim warranty for $940.00 for 5 years.
Then I ordered tinting and clear bra to be added.

Heh I went to town since the finance is at 0%!

And I also handed in my 2011 ML350BT which I leased for 3 years but I've just finished 2 years. The dealer gave me $5,000.00 credit to terminate the lease a year early as the ML is worth more than the pay out value.

The deal is done and I'll be taking delivery mid-week.

Much as I love my D I just can't take the risk that it'll develop issues in the near future.

So with that I bid you all adieu and best of luck with your Ds.

Thank you all for running a great Diesel Forum and every one has been very cordial and respectful of each other and helpful.

If you all don't mind I'll still come and visit frequently.
Who knows if BMW's new Diesel powertrain proves to be free of all these hassles I might get the new X5.

Cheers.


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## 09bmw335d (Aug 12, 2017)

I started getting this CEL error recently, seems to reoccur every 150-200kms.

4B06 - Set Zero Adjustment Cylinder 4 injector.

I have a 2009 335d with 200,000 kms on it.

Had a lot of work done under warranty.

Last year I had the following done:

- Replace all 6 diesel fuel injectors
- Carbon cleaning
- Replace intake manifold
- Replace Engine Head

No issues since last year until couple of days ago.

It seems this error is probably related to having the DDE replaced now.

My question is that I don't notice any issues when the CEL comes on, do I really need to fork out 2-3K to get the dde replaced, or should I juts run it as is. 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

You will probably be better served starting your own new thread. 

Changing the DDE is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Zero volume adjustment is a very subtle on going adaptation by the DDE.


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