# Better to learn on mediocre tires or really good ones?



## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

*Better to learn on mediocre tires or high-end tires?*

Curious if I should cough up the money for a new set of Michelin PS2's before the next DE or if I should stick with my ES 100's? The ES 100's have 10k on them and have been to one DE... they are a little thrashed and are making a lot of road noise...

So... will I learn more on new, hi-po tires or on the ES's?

-Mark


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## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

Trash the ES-100s at the track, learn to push them to the limit then move to better tires.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

I found the ES100s to be great tires for track duty, predictable yet sporty.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SergioK said:


> I found the ES100s to be great tires for track duty, predictable yet sporty.


:stupid:

But yeah... they do get real noisy when they are worn


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

SergioK said:


> I found the ES100s to be great tires for track duty, predictable yet sporty.


Do tires overheat? Do they lose traction if they pass a certain threshold in terms of heat? Track junkies, in your opinion, how do the ES's perform in this regard?

TIA,
Mark


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

markseven said:


> Do tires overheat? Do they lose traction if they pass a certain threshold in terms of heat? Track junkies, in your opinion, how do the ES's perform in this regard?
> 
> TIA,
> Mark


Yes they can.... when tires overheat, things like blistering starts to happen.. and sometimes tires can start fallin apart... so make sure you're running enough air pressure 

I've never had mine blister. They do get a little greasy when it gets close to the higher temp ranges. But most tires will have this effect too.. .just at different points... The ES100s were always very predictable for me... they don't just let go... you can feel it when you're on the edge and they are pretty communicative.


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanks for all the input, guys 



doeboy said:


> so make sure you're running enough air pressure


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1210413&postcount=10

-Mark


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

One street tire isn't goign to be that different from another street tire.


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> One street tire isn't goign to be that different from another street tire.


Especially when you find yourself sitting in bumper to bumper traffic as much as I do. For my next set of tires, I'm thinking of getting the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW. What do you guys think?

-Mark


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

I think you need to tell me when you're going to be taking the big red beast to the track


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

philippek said:


> I think you need to tell me when you're going to be taking the big red beast to the track


Saturday & Sunday, August 13 & 14 
LA Chapter Driving School
California Speedway
Fontana, CA

Are you gonna be there?  The "beast" (aka the mom mobile/grocery getter - pinstripes, roof rack and all) will be there... ! 

-Mark


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

markseven said:


> Saturday & Sunday, August 13 & 14
> LA Chapter Driving School
> California Speedway
> Fontana, CA
> ...


Looks like it's full


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

philippek said:


> Looks like it's full


I just spoke with Delight, and she said they haven't opened registration for that event as yet. The registration form should be posted on the web by Wednesday of the coming week :thumbup:

http://www.bmwclubla.org/haus.shtml

-Mark


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

philippek said:


> Looks like it's full


Even if it's full, you can always volunteer to work at these events. They're always looking for enthusiasts to help out. The rewards are you can drive a couple of sessions a day, when you have free time.

I've worked control, starter, re-entry and safety and it gives you a special insight into how these things are run, and a special appreciation for the volunteers you see at these events every year.

I'm still debating whether I should sign up as a student, or volunteer and get my 3-4 sessions over the weekend (I know Fontana like the back of my hand).


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

The HACK said:


> Even if it's full, you can always volunteer to work at these events. They're always looking for enthusiasts to help out. The rewards are you can drive a couple of sessions a day, when you have free time.
> 
> I've worked control, starter, re-entry and safety and it gives you a special insight into how these things are run, and a special appreciation for the volunteers you see at these events every year.
> 
> I'm still debating whether I should sign up as a student, or volunteer and get my 3-4 sessions over the weekend (I know Fontana like the back of my hand).


HACK,

Is Fontana really hard on brakes? Which track do you like better, Willow or Fontana?

-Mark


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

markseven said:


> Is Fontana really hard on brakes?


Yes. Imagine braking from about 120mph down to about 35mph when coming from the outer section of the oval back into the infield...


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## DasAutoSport (Feb 20, 2005)

markseven said:


> Especially when you find yourself sitting in bumper to bumper traffic as much as I do. For my next set of tires, I'm thinking of getting the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW. What do you guys think?
> 
> -Mark


They suck and blow! No durability at the track. A fellow junkie is running a "free" set as a test for the manufacturer and even at that price they aren't worth it. Noisy too, so you'll probably be unhappy on the freeway with them. (Don't report us to our "crack" dealer though, we still need our fix of future tires!)


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## DasAutoSport (Feb 20, 2005)

markseven said:


> Which track do you like better, Willow or Fontana?
> 
> -Mark


Fontana is by far more fun and challenging. Brakes are easy to replace


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

philippek said:


> Looks like it's full


what?? where do you see that? I am planning on signing up, wife might even go again :thumbup:


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

Jeff_DML said:


> what?? where do you see that? I am planning on signing up, wife might even go again :thumbup:


I was assuming since registration wasn't open that the class was full...but apparently it hasn't opened just yet. Mark, do you know when reg. opens?


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

DasAutoSport said:


> Fontana is by far more fun and challenging. Brakes are easy to replace


Yeppers. Fontana gives you everything from very tight corners to decreasing radius turns to quick chicanes to sharp left/rights to double apex sweepers to gigantic, long straights to rythm switch-backs. Set up that last turn coming out of the infield onto the straight right, you can FORCE passes even on cars with ~100 more HP than you. Get on the throttle early enough in that turn, it will reward you with sh*t load of speed down the front part of the oval, horsepower or not (of course, it's 10X easier with high HP cars).

Very tough on the brakes too, especially the oval-to-infield transition. There's a short straight after that to cool off the brakes, but you're right on the brakes again hard at the end of the straights. If you don't have proper cooling or track pads, expect massive fades in the 3rd or 4th session, especially if you're carrying more speed or have a heavier car. Be sure to manage your brakes effectively.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Without reading the other posts. Learn on cheap tres. Especially at first you will be over driving your tires at times, which is murder on them. So murder cheap ones.

WHen I started tracking the M3, I got a set of Sumitomo HTR Z II tires for track use. About the cheapest tire I could find in the proper sizes. Worked fine, and I didn't if I over cooked an entry and plowed the life out of the fronts.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> If you don't have proper cooling or track pads, expect massive fades in the 3rd or 4th session, especially if you're carrying more speed or have a heavier car. Be sure to manage your brakes effectively.


Well... I'm not so sure about "MASSIVE" fade.... I've only ever felt minor pad fade... and it's not like suddenly you have no more brakes... it's a slow onset so if you know how to identify the situation, you can easily adjust to compensate for that and let the brakes cool a bit.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

There's a pretty significant difference between the stock 330 brakes and the 323's brakes. 

The best thing is to follow the standard advice regarding braking, get it done early. Slow in, fast out. 

As for tires, yup, learn on cheapies then after you feel like upgrading, go ahead and spend more on better tires. Either way, I find cheap tires fun to tear up, especially if they make lots of noise. :angel:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SergioK said:


> There's a pretty significant difference between the stock 330 brakes and the 323's brakes.
> 
> The best thing is to follow the standard advice regarding braking, get it done early. Slow in, fast out.
> 
> As for tires, yup, learn on cheapies then after you feel like upgrading, go ahead and spend more on better tires. Either way, I find cheap tires fun to tear up, especially if they make lots of noise. :angel:


Good point... forgot about that... we were talking about different cars there too... 

But yeah... love that feeling when the tires are singing and you've got the slip angle workin for ya and you're just gliding along in a semi-drift.....


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanks for all the input/insight, guys - very helpful :thumbup: 

-Mark


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> drift


 :spank:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

SergioK said:


> :spank:


I said SEMI-drift...


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## TRWham (Aug 21, 2004)

markseven said:


> Do tires overheat? Do they lose traction if they pass a certain threshold in terms of heat? Track junkies, in your opinion, how do the ES's perform in this regard?
> 
> TIA,
> Mark


Yokohamas?- we used to dream of a good set of A008Rs at my first Drivers School...

Burn up the Yokos first- most of what it takes to go fast is between your ears and in your pants. By that I mean your butt- not your balls. Your little brass ones only get you in trouble on the track, but you just hear 'em clanking together and they're hard to ignore. 

Unless you plan to shave them, full tread PS2s will probably overheat worse than worn Yokos, and you'll trash a $1,000 set of shoes. The only way to do real track tires is to a buy a dedicated set and shave them properly. In my Showroom Stock days, I used a new set of 3/32 drys EVERY RACE WEEKEND, and had a separate set of 5/32 rain tires. Of course, I did have a tire contract.


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

TRWham said:


> Yokohamas?- we used to dream of a good set of A008Rs at my first Drivers School...
> 
> Burn up the Yokos first- most of what it takes to go fast is between your ears and in your pants. By that I mean your butt- not your balls. Your little brass ones only get you in trouble on the track, but you just hear 'em clanking together and they're hard to ignore.
> 
> Unless you plan to shave them, full tread PS2s will probably overheat worse than worn Yokos, and you'll trash a $1,000 set of shoes. The only way to do real track tires is to a buy a dedicated set and shave them properly. In my Showroom Stock days, I used a new set of 3/32 drys EVERY RACE WEEKEND, and had a separate set of 5/32 rain tires. Of course, I did have a tire contract.


TR,

Based on everyone's input, I'm gonna keep the Yokos until they hit the wear bars. Like Pinecone suggested, I'll probably get something pretty inexpensive next - Sumitomo's, Kumhos, Nittos, etc. 

-Mark


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