# DIY vs stealership prices for 3 common repairs.



## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

I am making this thread to use as a reference for us to show newcomers how to manage costs.
Even if you do not DIY, the key to used car ownership is having an honest yet skilled local indy mechanic.
This way you avoid inflated dealership genuine parts prices AND padded labor hours.

I changed out my exhaust cam sensor the other day. The part cost me $45 from FCP. 
I was also investigating if my intermittent headlight was a ballast issue. A new ballast will cost me about $145. A used ballast will cost about $50. 
Two no big deal kind of repairs. It got me wondering what it would cost me at the dealer.

SAMPLE COST OF PARTS (Not labor, just parts)

BMW ballast 63128387114 
The "BMW" ballast is $550 
The Hella is $145. (identical to above, without logo)
DEALER: $612 (11% more than online BMW)

BMW Rear Struts (33521093646)
Genuine BMW rear strut is $236
Sachs is $86.
DEALER: $276 (17% more than online BMW)

Intake cam sensor (A) 12147539165
Bosch for $45 
BMW version $125 
DEALER: $147 (17% more than online BMW)

So, then I decided to find out the cost of these three repairs at the dealer.

SAMPLE COST OF DEALER REPAIR

For rear struts, they quoted me $1655. ($900 labor and $600 parts) 
DIY is $170. I then called Honda, and got a $700 estimate for a strut job on a 2006 Civic. $375 labor and $240 for the struts. 
That seems fair. Not a big markup on the parts, either ($150 retail?) Not sure how much cheaper an indy would be for struts.

For BMW cam sensor, $395 labor (That is a 20 min. repair for a pro) Here, it's the excessive labor markup, not the parts markup. 
So, entire job would be $600 with labor/tax. (DIY was $48)

For headlight ballast, they said $150 labor. I think $150 must be the hourly rate, and they just flatline any job at 1 hour. 
For this job, it's the insane part cost ($650), not the labor. You'd be around $800 for a new ballast.
DIY is $145 or $30 used

Later that day, I was thinking those estimates can't possibly be right. 
I called BMW dealer #2 for a second opinion.
I could not believe it; The 2 dealers had little consistency for the hours of of labor and even the parts themselves!

Dealer #2: Struts $2100 ($740 parts, $1225 labor)
Dealer #1 was $1655. ($900 labor and $600 parts)

Dealer #2: Cam Sensor: $236 part. $504 labor. (Total ~ $800)
Dealer #1: For BMW cam sensor, $395 labor

Dealer #2: Ballast, she could not even quote me the $600 ballast, and quoted me $1457 for an entirely new headlight assembly. 
"If we need to remove headlight, labor will be something like $420". 
With tax, the ballast problem would cost TWO GRAND for a $150 driveway repair.

I felt sick. This was not what you want in a 2nd opinion. 
"So, 2nd doc, do I actually have testicular cancer? No, in fact, you have pancreatic cancer"

Maybe this is what fuels the new car sector. 
The masses can spend $300/mo but aren't nearly as prepared to drop $1000 here and there on a repair.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

A dealer is ALWAYS going to be higher prices, how else do they get the money for the free coffee 

But the benefits is you have a comeback, original parts, the dealer ISN'T going anywhere soon
they have all the right tools to do the job and a nice clean shop.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

The training, the shop, the tools, the computer, health insurance, ALL must be paid for my the customer.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

Yes, the prices are insane. All labor charges are done by the "book". The book (used to be called Chilton's) lists the hours for a specific repair. Almost all mechanics use it to price the labor on any job, regardless of the actual time it takes to do the job. Parts are a big concern for me. Counterfeit parts abound in the market. They look the same, but have a high failure rate. When I drove a VW, there were plenty of warning on the forum about buying parts from a particular vendor who used multiple identifies. My conclusion? If you are paying for it, get a second bid.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

not to say that dealers dont screw up or scam you

hence why they are reffered to as STEALERSHIPS


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

EconoBox said:


> I am making this thread to use as a reference for us to show newcomers how to manage costs.
> Even if you do not DIY, the key to used car ownership is having an honest yet skilled local indy mechanic.
> This way you avoid inflated dealership genuine parts prices AND padded labor hours.
> 
> ...


I believe it. The dealer wanted 380 in labor to switch my head light bulbs. The whole thing should take less than an hour for a pro. I could do it in less than an hour. I told him i would pay 150, which was still ridiculous(imo) and he finally said ok. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth, i would like arelationship with a dealer but its really just a ripoff factory. I will only let a trusted indy do things now.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

jaye944 said:


> A dealer is ALWAYS going to be higher prices, how else do they get the money for the free coffee
> 
> But the benefits is you have a comeback, original parts, the dealer ISN'T going anywhere soon
> they have all the right tools to do the job and a nice clean shop.


I wouldn't say "ALWAYS", because there are routine maintenance where the local dealer charges less than my indy; moreover, the indy shops here mark up BMW OEM parts, where the dealer either charges MSRP or reduced cost. The indy shops also charge book for labor, so the only difference is labor rate. the indy shops near me also only offer 1 year warranty on work performed, whereas the dealership it's 2 years.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

Doug Huffman said:


> The training, the shop, the tools, the computer, health insurance, ALL must be paid for my the customer.


don't forget all the other insurance and service and parts being backed by BMW.

go figure that dealerships are in the business of making money. :bigpimp:


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

Everytime you take your car to a garage other than a BMW dealer,
Everytime you buy a NON-BMW part

somewhere a fairy dies


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

EconoBox said:


> I am making this thread to use as a reference for us to show newcomers how to manage costs.
> Even if you do not DIY, the key to used car ownership is having an honest yet skilled local indy mechanic.
> This way you avoid inflated dealership genuine parts prices AND padded labor hours


let's stop with the whole "stealership" premise. You don't have to go to a dealership, so they aren't stealing from anyone. We could have endless threads about how bad indy shops, too. We should also debunk the notion that indies are better and cheaper, too. For many routine maintenance services (brakes, oil, coolant, other fluid flushes, etc), my dealer is either not much more than my indy or in fact cheaper, especially since they have rolling service specials. Let's talk about DIY, too, yeah DIY your are gonna save labor, but you aren't paying for your labor, although you are giving up your time to DIY. I do a mix of indy, dealership, and DIY. Here's some differences from my experience:

1. my indy actually marks up parts exceeding MSRP and won't do work for parts he does not buy. Making a profit off of parts and not doing warrantying work done with parts the shop does not buy is common among the indy shops in my area. Whereas, I can buy discounted parts through the dealership and the dealership will install and warranty since I bought through the dealership.
2. indy only offers 1 year warranty, whereas the dealership it's 2 years/unlimited miles
3. indy charges same book labor as dealership, so it doesn't matter if it takes him less to do the work. Only difference is the labor rate.
4. indy isn't open on the weekends, opens later, closes earlier, and is farther away than the dealership.
5. indy doesn't have loaners, shuttle service, and metro cards like the dealership.
6. indy doesn't have BMW backing them and you aren't guaranteed they are going to be around (yeah, yeah, there are plenty of indy shops which have been in business for a very long time).
7. DIY and indy is limited to the tools I and they have or ability to perform the work.
8. non-OEM part will work perfectly fine and may exceed OEM, OEM will always be to BMW's specifications. OE manufacturer by law is not allowed to sell manufacturer specific spec parts retail.

Look, we all want the least expensive option to service and repair our vehicles; however, let's not simply focus on cost in a vacuum.


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

Then find a new indy, you're getting ripped off.

Those dealership repairs I quoted are ludicrous.

Labor is labor, but the stealership seems to get around that regulation. 
No chance in hell a CPS sensor is 4 hours of labor in the book.
The way stealerships get around the legal "book hours" regulations is to screw you on crazy parts prices.
An indy can order Sachs, Hella, and Bosch parts.
Even with the indy markup, you're nowhere in the ballpark of dealer parts prices.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

EconoBox said:


> Then find a new indy, you're getting ripped off.
> 
> Those dealership repairs I quoted are ludicrous.
> 
> ...


Actually, I'm not getting ripped off, since I choose whether or not to have work performed by the indy. He has worked on the same car when he worked at the dealership to when he opened up his indy shop. As I said, his practices aren't any different than other indy shops around my area.

None of those dealership repairs you quoted are ludicrous. You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare work performed and supported by someone else versus work performed by you. Yup, labor is labor, and my DIY opportunity cost of labor is far more than your dealership's $150/hr labor. You are lucky that your dealership is $150/hr, ours is $180/hr.

I presume you haven't looked at the book, since you assume it is not 4 hours of labor in the book. Even good resources like pelicanparts shows 3 hours for for your E39 CPS, which is consistent with the $395 labor quote.

book e39 struts is 6hrs, which is consistent with the $150/hr labor rate equaling the $900 labor quote.

yes, dealers and indy shops are going to charge you a minimum 1hr labor, that is common practice.

you are funny...what regulation? They charge retail for genuine BMW parts. Why would you expect a dealership install non-genuine BMW parts? Yes, an indy or you may use non-genuine BMW parts, but then they aren't genuine BMW parts. Even if you buy parts from Hella or the like as an OE manufacturer, again, they are by law prohibited from selling you retail parts with the exact specifications of the genuine part. Now, I'm not saying OE parts are not as good, reliable, etc., but you are paying more for BMW because of their cost to spec, test, and certify those parts.

good on you for DIY'ing...I too like to DIY having just replaced my CPS, too. Now, full disclosure: I did a bonehead thing by not checking for the o-ring after removing the old CPS and installing the new CPS w/o-ring on top of the old o-ring. The good thing is I caught it before I fired the car back up. Which goes to the last point: dealerships habitually have to fix errant DIY and indy repairs, even for simple things like putting the wrong fluid in the wrong reservoir.


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

An Indy can buy debranded parts from WorldPac.
This is where the dealers get you. Crazy prices for branded parts.
It's like buying $300 blue jeans.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

EconoBox said:


> An Indy can buy debranded parts from WorldPac.
> This is where the dealers get you. Crazy prices for branded parts.
> It's like buying $300 blue jeans.


WorldPac is "Wholesale Distributor of OE Parts". Just like those $300 blue jeans, the blue jean factory cannot sell the same blue jean that is trademarked, patented, or copyrighted as the "genuine" blue jean. Same goes for OE manufacturers. There's no "debranded". OE manufacturers make a part which is sold with retail branding, whether or not it comes in a retail package is a different topic. Again, I'm not saying that the parts are not effectively the same, better, or otherwise. I am saying you are paying costs a car company has paid to certify, spec, test, logistics chain cost, value of the name BMW, etc that part on their vehicles and label it as "genuine". I buy OE manufacturer and aftermarket all the time for DIY on my cars. The dealership isn't stealing from anyone selling a genuine part which the car company supports versus none genuine parts that the car company doesn't support. It's interesting all this stealership talk, yet I bet you don't go driving around your BMW with all the BMW roundels and labels removed.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

long time ago, (in the UK) I bought a NON-OEM door mirror for my GM.
It looked "almost" the same, ALMOST, but it wasn't, I took both sides of and the sizing was right, but the material, color and some of the fitments where not 100%
Like eating a homemade pizza or a store bought frozen.

I also remember buying a non-oem suspension part track rod end, or something for my ford, to correct a shake, after 6 months shake was back
Shop said def, TCR arms, I said no boss I changed them. Apparently there is a BUSHING in non-oem parts which are not up to spec,
after putting in the correct part, lasted till I sold the car 6 years later.

MY experience with OEM vs NON-OEM, is I'd prefer to get OEM


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

OE is just rebranded parts made by a parts company.
The "BMW" struts are made by Sachs.
They are the IDENTICAL part.
I'm not talking about aftermarket.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

Not sure if your reply to my post, but

To clarify, here are the definitions: GENUINE - Manufactured for BMW and supplied in BMW branded packaging
or part is physically marked with the BMW logo. OE or OEM - Original Equipment or Original Equipment Manufactured/Manufacturer.

Aftermarket is the secondary market of the automotive industry, concerned with the manufacturing, remanufacturing, distribution,
retailing, and installation of vehicle parts, chemicals, equipment, and accessories, after the sale of the vehicle by the original equipment manufacturer

In some cases I wont touch aftermarket, in some cases aftermarket isnt worth the price difference. In some cases I'll get a part from a breakers rather than OEM
or Aftermarket


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

EconoBox said:


> OE is just rebranded parts made by a parts company.
> The "BMW" struts are made by Sachs.
> They are the IDENTICAL part.
> I'm not talking about aftermarket.


OE is not rebranded parts made by a parts company. Again, OEM's are prohibited from selling a part with exact specs as the genuine part. OE parts are retail or wholesale products which may be compatible or exact fit replacement parts, but they are not "rebranded". This is why a Sachs strut bought retail or wholesale which is not a genuine BMW is not covered by BMW and vice versa.


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

imtjm said:


> Again, OEM's are prohibited from selling a part with exact specs as the genuine part.


Wrong. I've gotten parts with the BMW logo scratched off. It's literally the same exact part.

Sachs makes the struts, and prints a BMW logo on it. For ones they sell themselves, they put the Sachs logo on it.

What SPECS exactly do you think they change, yet are offering a direct replacement with the same part #?


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

EconoBox said:


> Wrong. I've gotten parts with the BMW logo scratched off. It's literally the same exact part.
> 
> Sachs makes the struts, and prints a BMW logo on it. For ones they sell themselves, they put the Sachs logo on it.
> 
> What SPECS exactly do you think they change, yet are offering a direct replacement with the same part #?


As I said before, there are tons of counterfeit parts for sale for autos. Know your source.


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## 559056 (Oct 8, 2016)

Excerpt from Econobox's dissertation on dealership disparity of prices: "For BMW cam sensor, $395 labor (That is a 20 min. repair for a pro) Here, it's the excessive labor markup, not the parts markup. So, entire job would be $600 with labor/tax. (DIY was $48)" 
Southcoastguy adds to the discussion; "All labor charges are done by the "book". The book (used to be called Chilton's) lists the hours for a specific repair."

In my younger days, when money was really tight, I used to study the service rep and how he managed the estimate for any given repair. I noted that all repairs were quoted and ultimately billed at the "book rate", regardless of how long the repair actually took. The ultimate absurdity revealed itself, when two repairs, requiring the same preparation, were summed together in the final charge for labor, even though the repair required a single operation.
I also noticed, as I became more and more accomplished at auto mechanics, that the labor chart rose in direct proportion to the 'perceived complexity' on the part of the customer OR, the number of specialized one off tools required to use on some lame fastener, that only the dealer could afford to keep in the tool chest.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

EconoBox said:


> Wrong. I've gotten parts with the BMW logo scratched off. It's literally the same exact part.
> 
> Sachs makes the struts, and prints a BMW logo on it. For ones they sell themselves, they put the Sachs logo on it.
> 
> What SPECS exactly do you think they change, yet are offering a direct replacement with the same part #?


Sorry, you are wrong again. If you got grey market parts with BMW logo scratched off, then that is a function of whoever is selling the part, not the OE manufacturer (OEM). A genuine part is still going to be a genuine part even if some seller decides to scrape off the genuine brand name. OEM parts may look exactly the same and may be designed to be functionally equivalent to the genuine part. You will note that there is lots of word play with people selling parts for a reason when talking about differences between OEM and genuine. Direct replacement is just that direct replacement. Exact fit, same quality, same performance, direct replacement are used for a reason.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

Glaird said:


> In my younger days, when money was really tight, I used to study the service rep and how he managed the estimate for any given repair. I noted that all repairs were quoted and ultimately billed at the "book rate", regardless of how long the repair actually took. The ultimate absurdity revealed itself, when two repairs, requiring the same preparation, were summed together in the final charge for labor, even though the repair required a single operation.
> I also noticed, as I became more and more accomplished at auto mechanics, that the labor chart rose in direct proportion to the 'perceived complexity' on the part of the customer OR, the number of specialized one off tools required to use on some lame fastener, that only the dealer could afford to keep in the tool chest.


ain't that the truth...even more so as cars have become more computerized.


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## jinda (Oct 19, 2010)

We have to remember that 2 exactly the same looking thing can have different characteristics/properties.
Good example are structural steel which are commonly use in automotive as well.

- An A131 steel will have the same Density with that of an A36 steel which is 7.8.
- But A131 has a yield strength of 220 MPa and A36 has 250 MPa.
- And A131 has ulitmate strength of 490 MPa and A36 has 550 MPa.

Meaning, we can't say that 2 things are the same because they look exactly the same and weigh the same.

Lol even dairy milk can have different mixture with varying % of fat content


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

imtjm said:


> Sorry, you are wrong again. If you got grey market parts with BMW logo scratched off, then that is a function of whoever is selling the part, not the OE manufacturer (OEM). A genuine part is still going to be a genuine part even if some seller decides to scrape off the genuine brand name. OEM parts may look exactly the same and may be designed to be functionally equivalent to the genuine part. You will note that there is lots of word play with people selling parts for a reason when talking about differences between OEM and genuine. Direct replacement is just that direct replacement. Exact fit, same quality, same performance, direct replacement are used for a reason.


Call it whatever you want. 
Direct replacement Sachs, Hella, Lemfoerder, Seimens/VDO.
They are IDENTICAL to the genuine BMW nonsense you are paying triple to quadruple for.

An indy will use direct replacement, and save you a ****ton of money on parts.

It's really not that complicated.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

jinda said:


> We have to remember that 2 exactly the same looking thing can have different characteristics/properties.
> Good example are structural steel which are commonly use in automotive as well.
> 
> - An A131 steel will have the same Density with that of an A36 steel which is 7.8.
> ...


Issue #1: Brand reputation. So let's just say for giggles that Sachs would use the stronger alloy for a BMW labeled part and the weaker one for their own brand, which by the way makes zero sense if they have any brand pride. Considering that Sachs has a decent reputation, at least from what I've heard, they would have pride in their own brand. If anything, they might go cheap on the BMW branded-thing.

Issue #2: Most use of any part will come nowhere near the limit of the strength of the component's materials. If the components differ in strength by 12% and are never stressed to even 80% of capacity, it's a non-issue.

Issue #3: You have zero facts that this is actually the case. So it's just theory.

Issue #4: 300% Price difference would not be justified unless the branded part is 300% better.

I have a BMW logo coffee cup I got for Christmas. It's NOT EVEN DISHWASHER SAFE. Because they didn't even bother to seal it in such a way that it could survive the heat of a dishwasher. If that's indicative of BMW-branded parts, then NO THANK YOU.

Anyone who wants to pay more for the same part because it has a roundel on it, is welcome to. I'll take the lower priced parts, thank you. If they fail every 88k miles instead of every 100k miles, which is doubtful, you're still better off in the long run.

:soapbox:


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## jinda (Oct 19, 2010)

mark_m5 said:


> Issue #1: Brand reputation...


I dont think that's not how it works. If Sachs manufacture the strut for BMW, then that just means that they manufacture it based on BMW design requirements. Which should be specific to the design of the car. So yes, its always possible that parts like that can be manufactured with different design criteria in mind.
Just like Apple contracting Samsung to manufacture the SoC for their Iphones for example. Their design for other phones should be different.



mark_m5 said:


> Most use of any part will come nowhere near the limit of the strength of the component's materials. If the components differ in strength by 12% and are never stressed to even 80% of capacity, it's a non-issue.


That's what you call factor of safety. I'm not an automobile structural designer but I'm assuming it uses a FS higher than just stationary structures due to vibration and movement. A simple load uses a 1.6 live load and 1.2 dead load factor on a fixed, non moving structure so you can imagine what they use for moving objects.



mark_m5 said:


> You have zero facts that this is actually the case. So it's just theory.


I never claim that these are facts. Its more on common sense and from what is being practiced in other industries. I am merely saying there are more to things than just how they look.



mark_m5 said:


> 300% Price difference would not be justified unless the branded part is 300% better.


There can be many factors. The branded part was made based on approved design while we dont know how the generic brand was made.



mark_m5 said:


> I have a BMW logo coffee cup I got for Christmas. It's NOT EVEN DISHWASHER SAFE. Because they didn't even bother to seal it in such a way that it could survive the heat of a dishwasher. If that's indicative of BMW-branded parts, then NO THANK YOU.
> 
> Anyone who wants to pay more for the same part because it has a roundel on it, is welcome to. I'll take the lower priced parts, thank you. If they fail every 88k miles instead of every 100k miles, which is doubtful, you're still better off in the long run.


I think we can use better judgment on deciding whether to use a branded part or not. If I need to get something that's part of the engine or other mechanical system, then I'll most likely get the branded part. If I need to get a replacement motor for the power windows, then I would look for alternative brands. Everything that can have effect on safety, I'll go for the branded part, so in case something fail and you have to sue them, you are using parts that they designed for their cars.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

EconoBox said:


> Call it whatever you want.
> Direct replacement Sachs, Hella, Lemfoerder, Seimens/VDO.
> They are IDENTICAL to the genuine BMW nonsense you are paying triple to quadruple for.
> 
> ...


nope, wrong on the first. As far as indy shops, well it all depends. As noted before, all the indy shops in my area mark up part prices, too, and will either use only genuine BMW parts or not. I'm not arguing that you won't save money DIY or going to an indy; however, as with everything you should know the differences of what you are getting and getting into before executing. It is obviously complicated, since you've made inaccurate statements.


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

You sound like one of those people who uses $20/qt "BMW oil" b/c of its magical BMW only properties. Guess what, it's Castrol.
Can you name even a single OE marked part that is structurally different than the one with the BMW logo? (besides the logo) No, you can't.

You seem to understand that car manufacturers don't actually manufacture most of the parts that go into their cars 
-- they design and spec what the the part needs to do, then other manufacturers (Sachs, Bosch, Delphi, etc.) make the part. 
The OE manufacturer might make two versions -- one with their own logo, another with the car maker's logo.

The insane part is you've convinced yourself the parts are different !

How are you going to reconcile in your head that sometimes the exact same part is used in ...
TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS BY TWO DIFFERENT MANUFACTURERS?

For example, the '04 Range Rover uses the exact same oil filter as the BMW 740iL, X5 4.4, 540i, etc.
Why? Because they all have the SAME ENGINE. Literally.
I bet you will say that the part with the BMW label instead of Land Rover on its box is better!

I've have purchased a countless number of OE parts for my BMW cars.
All reputable parts vendors (AutoHauzAZ, FCPEuro, etc) will list the OE and BMW version for any given part number.
The OE makers are brands such as Bosch, Hella, Mahle, Lemforder, Sachs, INA, Modine, VDO/Seimens, etc.
I can assure you, they do not make DIFFERENT parts that get a BMW logo,
and then stick the SAME PART NUMBER on OE branded parts that are somehow inferior.
They are the exact same part and exact same fit......with a different label.
This is common knowledge in the car hobby, everyone knows this except you. 

You have gotten raped so badly by your stealership (and clueless indy who only installs BMW logo parts) 
that you can't not reconcile and have made up some imaginary justification that the BMW logo parts are somehow different.
It's like some form of Stockholm Syndrome.


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

:dunno:



:thumbdwn:


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

dude....seriously chillax












EconoBox said:


> :dunno:
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbdwn:


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

What about counterfeit or low-quality parts where logos have been faked? Believe me, they exist. And I would never buy a part manufactured in China. Know before you buy.


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## jinda (Oct 19, 2010)

Like I said, if the part failure can affect the operation of the vehicle and will have safety concerns for the passengers, I will try to stick with the OEM parts.

Now if its just consumables, considering reputable alternatives wont hurt.
And counterfeit parts? Mostly yeah, I would stay away from it. But things like a fake black and white roundel, non-bmw tire valve caps, ebay quality ///M badge, unbranded floor mats, etc. Those are not critical


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

EconoBox said:


> You sound like one of those people who uses $20/qt "BMW oil" b/c of its magical BMW only properties. Guess what, it's Castrol.
> Can you name even a single OE marked part that is structurally different than the one with the BMW logo? (besides the logo) No, you can't.


BMW oil isn't $20/qt. BMW actually recommended Castrol by brand and Castrol is right there on my oil cap, not BMW TwinTurbo oil. Since 2015, it is not Castrol, it's Shell aka Pennzoil. However, oil is also one of the consumables where BMW specifies using specs not brand LL-xx. Contrary to your contention of over priced BMW labeled oil, the BMW branded LL04 stuff has actually been cheaper than name brand oils, so I bought it rather than Castrol LL04.



EconoBox said:


> You seem to understand that car manufacturers don't actually manufacture most of the parts that go into their cars
> -- they design and spec what the the part needs to do, then other manufacturers (Sachs, Bosch, Delphi, etc.) make the part. The OE manufacturer might make two versions -- one with their own logo, another with the car maker's logo.
> 
> The insane part is you've convinced yourself the parts are different !
> ...


I don't reconcile, it is reconciled by trademark and other regulations and laws



EconoBox said:


> TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS BY TWO DIFFERENT MANUFACTURERS? For example, the '04 Range Rover uses the exact same oil filter as the BMW 740iL, X5 4.4, 540i, etc. Why? Because they all have the SAME ENGINE. Literally.
> I bet you will say that the part with the BMW label instead of Land Rover on its box is better! I've have purchased a countless number of OE parts for my BMW cars.
> All reputable parts vendors (AutoHauzAZ, FCPEuro, etc) will list the OE and BMW version for any given part number. The OE makers are brands such as Bosch, Hella, Mahle, Lemforder, Sachs, INA, Modine, VDO/Seimens, etc. I can assure you, they do not make DIFFERENT parts that get a BMW logo, and then stick the SAME PART NUMBER on OE branded parts that are somehow inferior. They are the exact same part and exact same fit......with a different label. This is common knowledge in the car hobby, everyone knows this except you.


two different manufacturers? Really, as I recall, Range Rover was under BMW ownership and used a BMW engine. That's actually not the same, now is it. Now I wonder why all those vendors separate out OE vs BMW genuine part? Hmmm, hmmm. Maybe it's because they can't sell an OE part as genuine because it isn't genuine? They list BMW part number as a cross reference so it makes it easy for folks to buy OE parts if they choose to use OE part. Show me an OE retail part with BMW part number on it? Now I know that vendors will stick a label on the packaging, that is not the same thing. You can't assure anyone, because you are absolutely misinformed.



EconoBox said:


> You have gotten raped so badly by your stealership (and clueless indy who only installs BMW logo parts)
> that you can't not reconcile and have made up some imaginary justification that the BMW logo parts are somehow different.
> It's like some form of Stockholm Syndrome.


as @jaye944 wrote, you need to chill. You are so hopped up some weird conspiracy you haven't actually read what I wrote. I still find it amusing how you complain about BMW dealerships while driving around in a car branded with BMW all over it.


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## imtjm (Oct 5, 2004)

southcoastguy said:


> What about counterfeit or low-quality parts where logos have been faked? Believe me, they exist. And I would never buy a part manufactured in China. Know before you buy.


This is the case with OE retail branded, too.


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

Yep, very true and a serious problem. The Chinese are counterfeiting not only many brand name replacements but OEM parts too including logos, part numbers, patent information and everything OEM packaging should have.

This problem has become so widespread that fake parts are even turning up at classic car judging meets such as those frequently held for NCRS Corvettes. The judges are being trained in how to detect fakes.

A good reason to be very careful buying parts on eBay!


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

I suspected you would buy the BMW oil. 
This guy is so afflicted with stealership Stockholm Syndromed that it depressed me.

You are entitled to go pay quadruple for parts from your stealer, because of of a fear of fake parts. 
But, there is a simple solution. Buy OEM branded parts from reputable online vendors like FCP, AutoHauz, and Pelican.
Who buys car parts on Ebay? Sheesh!


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

Oil level sender.

$45 if you buy Hella.
Same exact Hella part number as the OE part I removed from my car.
They even put the exact BMW part number on the box (since it's made for many different makes and models)

But, go ahead, keep telling yourself these are totally different parts.
Different materials, different specs, different factories, etc?

SAME OEM, SAME COO, SAME PART NUMBER.
THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME PART.

Go ahead and pay $350 (A 600% premium) for this part at the dealer, and enjoy the feeling of security for the "genuine" logo markup.
This is the paranoid mentality the stealership preys on. But that is not what this forum is about, so stop spreading your grotesque cluelessness on this forum, please.


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

BMW fuel pump I pulled out of my car.
Compare it to the $140 VDO pump I replaced it with.

Notice the part number: 228.222.009/002
Yes, Virginia, THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME PART. 
SAME OEM, SAME COO, SAME PART NUMBER.

You go right ahead and pay $500 for the dealer logo
But, please stop telling others you're getting something better. You're not!


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

imtjm said:


> I still find it amusing how you complain about BMW dealerships while driving around in a car branded with BMW all over it. [/COLOR]


I find it amusing how people get a hotel room for $500/night but then go out to eat instead of paying $200 for a hamburger via room service.


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## crabu2 (Mar 14, 2017)

jaye944 said:


> seriously, some people really need to get a grip on things,
> 
> for a start THIS IS THE INTERNET, nothing is real or fake.
> Many keyboard warriors and diagnosing doctors (hello everybody I'm dr.nick!)
> ...


Huh?

You 1st state nothing is fake or real, then say you have an inside Dodge man .. as if you're going to the Dodge dealer for parts and service, then talking about how you paid for your car, .. talk about only buying BMW parts for your BMW, even if it was just water... then at the end state you have a BMW and your prior car was a 944.

So why does a person with a BMW that only uses BMW parts, but in the past had a 944 go to a Dodge dealership for parts and service? Does Dodge ... or should I say Fiat have Porsche parts?

It seems you're making a point that your post is fake because it's the internet. LOL.

BTW, I go to the local "Dodge" dealership... Because I have a Ram 3500 w/Cummins. They don't have any mini danish, but they do have free wifi, coffee, and other drinks. I also go to the local International shop for things like filters, for the Cummins, because the parts are cheaper.

If you want to keep paying cash for stuff, be smart with your money and don't be blind by paying whatever price just because it has a BMW sticker on it.

One other thing.. what makes BMW this "high tech luxury sports car"? What tech or luxury does BMW have that other manufactures don't? Didn't BMW just lose their head designer to Hyundai?

Stop drinking the kool aid! And we know you do, or you're a dealer troll to suggest you'd pay more for water, if it had the BMW logo on it. Save your cash where you can, so you can keep buying cars or whatever with cash..


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## EconoBox (Aug 9, 2011)

jaye944 said:


> IF it does NOT say BMW on the ****ing box it aint going anywhere near my car.
> :rofl: :rofl:












THE PARTS ARE THE SAME.
Have a nice day.


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## jinda (Oct 19, 2010)

You guys need to cool down. We are all adults here right? So hostile in here lol!

Sent from my SM-N920T using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## oldgeezer (Apr 1, 2017)

EconoBox said:


> OE is just rebranded parts made by a parts company.
> The "BMW" struts are made by Sachs.
> They are the IDENTICAL part.
> I'm not talking about aftermarket.


But without the BMW logo on the part you will not get the 24 month unlimited mileage warranty at any BMW dealership nationwide. In many cases this does not matter. If it's something that's labor intensive and has the potential of letting me down I always go with genuine BMW parts and keep the receipt in the glove box.

Other stuff I go with OE manufacturers.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

crabu2 said:


> One other thing.. what makes BMW this "high tech luxury sports car"? What tech or luxury does BMW have that other manufactures don't? Didn't BMW just lose their head designer to Hyundai?


BMW employees use an extra special plastic crate to carry around BMW emblems at the assembly plants. :rofl:










btw, you are correct about former BMW Group designer Christopher Chapman. He accepted a position with Hyundai Design Center USA in 2012. Another former BMW employee who went to Hyundai is engineer Albert Biermann.


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