# More Toyota news..



## buckybadger (Dec 21, 2008)

More Toyota news:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/08/california.runaway.prius/index.html?hpt=T1

Looks like SD area has been the inception of most of the events...


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## Grey3 (Dec 28, 2009)

90mph:yikes: Was he on a downhill with a 50mph tail wind?


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## drwtsn32 (Sep 30, 2006)

90mph?? Who knew a Prius could go so fast!


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## cinoh (May 15, 2007)

Just saw this on the ABC Early show. On and on... Interviewed the driver, interviewed a cop/hwy patrol guy, banter between the hosts, what you should do, blah, blah, blah.......... and not a single mention of PUTTING THE FREAKING TRANSMISSION INTO NEUTRAL!


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## krash (Nov 26, 2005)

cinoh said:


> Just saw this on the ABC Early show. On and on... Interviewed the driver, interviewed a cop/hwy patrol guy, banter between the hosts, what you should do, blah, blah, blah.......... and not a single mention of PUTTING THE FREAKING TRANSMISSION INTO NEUTRAL!


Yeah, I never understood this....

These people couldnt put their car in NEUTRAL and then apply the brakes????


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## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

this is why I'm still not really sure its fair to bash Toyota on this...

Of course they could be lying (or simply mistaken) that their fixes actually cure the problem....

but reports like this make me really skeptical. After all this press, and information, this guy apparently still had no freakin' clue what to do?

It just seems like almost all of these drivers who are experiencing unintended acceleration are brain dead....which leads me to wonder if their driving (and not the car) is the cause.

Psychology is a really strange thing, the number of unintended acceleration reports shot up dramatically after this hit the media. If this was such a drastic problem before, cars would be crashing left and right.

The one couple in Texas are clearly lying about their repair history, their attorney claimed that the couple had brought their Toyota in for service numerous times regarding the acceleration, yet the dealership records show the car was never brought in for anything but routine oil changes.

So that couple, and/or their lawyer, is just flat out lying.

Then the ABC News report by Brian Ross and that "professor" from some podunk college in Illinois...the guy spent hours rewiring the entire accelerator system and put in a transistor in order to create the "acceleration".

It was subsequently demonstrated that the same trick used on a BMW or any other make of car had the same effect....

This type of misinformation really clouds and confuses things.


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## neapolitan (Feb 12, 2009)

Yeah. +1. It echos the whole Audi debacle of the 80's, for those of you old enough to remember.

History tends to repeat itself.


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## BLT (Jan 30, 2006)

pilotman said:


> this is why I'm still not really sure its fair to bash Toyota on this...
> 
> Of course they could be lying (or simply mistaken) that their fixes actually cure the problem....
> 
> ...


Fixed your post for accuracy.


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## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

haha, thanks! a resistor AND a switch.

That's just really disingenious.

I am NOT a Toyota fan boy, I owned one, it was fine, didn't really care for it one way or another, it was just a boring reliable appliance.

Corporations cut corners and may lie when given the chance, they ALL do it, even our beloved "American" corporations.

This 61 year old guy was apparently making a lot of comments that, you know, this happened right where the CHP officer and his family were killed in the runaway Lexus (which was admittedly a terrible tragedy).

Then people are speculating there is something in that particular area, electromagnetic interference from the Earth or something....:rofl:


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

I am also skeptical. It's too early to know if this guy had a problem for real or if he was looking for attention or to file a lawsuit.

He wasn't comfortable turning off the car until it slowed to 50? Why not turn it off when it's doing 90? Sure you'll lose the power assist on braking and steering, but the braking wasn't working anyway and power assist on steering really isn't necessary at high speed.


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## vavet5308 (Dec 21, 2005)

Most modern cars have throttle by wire. If you reqire the system, then yes, you can recreate the problem in just about any car. It's a matter of reading a basic circuit diagram and understanding basic computer logic. If input a=1 and input b=1 and input c=0, then accelerate. When humans start manipulating these inputs, then the fail safe a manufacturer has built in to the system is taken out of the equation. 

Toyota obviously believes there is a problem with some of their cars, hence the recall. Are they perfect? No. Are they trying to make it right, yeah, it seems like it. 

When you sell hundreds of thousands of cars, there is a fine line between responding to valid customer complaints and chasing your tail over every little thing. If you're Rolls Royce, you have to track down every complains, that's why people pay $400,000 for a single car.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

cinoh said:


> ...not a single mention of PUTTING THE FREAKING TRANSMISSION INTO NEUTRAL!


+2 
I heard this mentioned once or twice a few weeks back, but they should be reinforcing this point at every chance. i rode in a Prius just yesterday and the shift lever is very basic and located about 4" to the right of the steering wheel.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

neapolitan said:


> Yeah. +1. It echos the whole Audi debacle of the 80's, for those of you old enough to remember.
> 
> History tends to repeat itself.


dont forget what happened to audi... it nearly went bankrupt because no one wanted their cars after that 60 minutes piece....


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Orient330iNYC said:


> dont forget what happened to audi... it nearly went bankrupt because no one wanted their cars after that 60 minutes piece....


True, but Audi was only selling 90,000 cars a year in the US at the time of the debacle. It took them decades to recover.
Too many lawyers are waking up with boners over this one.


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## Sky Keeper (May 12, 2006)

d geek said:


> +2
> I heard this mentioned once or twice a few weeks back, but they should be reinforcing this point at every chance. i rode in a Prius just yesterday and the shift lever is very basic and located about 4" to the right of the steering wheel.


Can you put transmission into neutral on a Prius? "Shift Lever" is just a button there, it does not even break a circuit. 
maybe he was avoiding speeding ticket? though, 92mph in san diego can be below the speed of traffic...


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

The article left out a piece of information that was on the local news.

Apparently, the owner of the Prius received a recall letter a few weeks ago. He promptly went to the dealer only to be told that his car was not on the recall list and the letter was most likely a mistake.

A few weeks later he almost lost his life. 

It is clear to me now that are in fact electronic issues in additional to mechanical problems.

Also, the driver was fearful of turning off the car because he was going close to 100MPH on a winding highway. He was afraid he would not have sufficient steering control at high speeds.

As others have said, not sure why putting the car in neutral does not come to mind within a few seconds.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Sky Keeper said:


> Can you put transmission into neutral on a Prius? "Shift Lever" is just a button there, it does not even break a circuit....


The one i saw yesterday was not a shift button. it was a lever that could be moved to N, IIRC.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

It is very easy to sit in our comfortable chairs and say what someone else should do while in a high stress environment. Personally, I have been a student of first-person accounts of fighter pilots. I have read probably 90% of all first person accounts published for WW2 pilots, and very many for WW1 and modern jet pilots.

The phenomenon called 'task overload' is a well known one in those circles. Typically, after even a year of flight training, the first time a pilot goes into combat, he barely knows what is going on around him. My hero, above in my avatar, tells of taking his wingman into a huge furball (a tremendous dogfight with dozens of planes involved), and twisting and turning (he shot down three, I think, on that day, and the squadron he led broke up an attack of 150 FWs and 109s). He thought his manuvers were so wild, that no German could stay on his tail.


> "I thought, poor Holtmier! He's probably had it by now." With most of the Focke-Wulfs running for their lives, I looked around me. I gasped. There was Holtmier glued to my wing. How he did it, I'll never know. He later told me that he hardly remembered seeing a Focke-Wulf. He said he was afraid to get lost from my tail. What a battle for a first mission.


So, here is a fighter pilot, who, at that time in the war, probably had over a year's flight training, and went into the fight knowing there was going to be a fight. No doubt, he experienced task overload. He could not do his job, watching out for other planes, because he was so consumed with following the leader.

So, a surprise accellerator malfunction, zipping down the highway out of control, it is probably all some can do to keep steering and stomping on the brake.


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

I don't buy any of this Toyota business, I believe it was orchestrated by a pathetic GM and a korean junk Huydai.

If it really did happen - most of American drivers are retarded automatic transmission driving fat asses. I can't believe they couldn't figure out how to flip the lever into N!!!! Maybe if they put down their big gulp slurpee and a double wopper with cheese, they'd figure it out.


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

Kamdog said:


> It is very easy to sit in our comfortable chairs and say what someone else should do while in a high stress environment. Personally, I have been a student of first-person accounts of fighter pilots. I have read probably 90% of all first person accounts published for WW2 pilots, and very many for WW1 and modern jet pilots.
> 
> The phenomenon called 'task overload' is a well known one in those circles. Typically, after even a year of flight training, the first time a pilot goes into combat, he barely knows what is going on around him. My hero, above in my avatar, tells of taking his wingman into a huge furball (a tremendous dogfight with dozens of planes involved), and twisting and turning (he shot down three, I think, on that day, and the squadron he led broke up an attack of 150 FWs and 109s). He thought his manuvers were so wild, that no German could stay on his tail.
> 
> ...


I understand your point, but comparing a combat dog fight to driving a Prius to a mall is not fair.


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## Blubaron79 (Feb 16, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MyxGUUtE8A&feature=related

Listen to this clip. This was a police officer who died with 3 people in his Lexus ES 350. It is scary as hell to listen to them. You pretty much here them die on the clip...

I do keep asking myself, why not put the thing into Neutral?


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

ProfessorCook said:


> I am also skeptical. It's too early to know if this guy had a problem for real or if he was looking for attention or to file a lawsuit.
> 
> He wasn't comfortable turning off the car until it slowed to 50? Why not turn it off when it's doing 90? Sure you'll lose the power assist on braking and steering, but the braking wasn't working anyway and power assist on steering really isn't necessary at high speed.


One thing is to know what to do (in this case, turn off the engine) and purposely not doing it, for whatever reason (as you conjectures, for a law suit or attention whoring).
But if his car didn't experience a defect, he'd have to have his foot floored on the accelerator (a Prius running at 90mph is pretty much floored) for 20 mins, even as a cop catches up with him and gives him instructions via the pa system. That would be a major fraud, even criminal I'd say.


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## cinoh (May 15, 2007)

The Prius driver even had the presence of mind to call 911 while hurtling down the road and standing on the brakes--but not enough to slip the car into neutral. Wouldn't that be an obvious part of the 911 operator's script, too?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

panerai7 said:


> I understand your point, but comparing a combat dog fight to driving a Prius to a mall is not fair.


:rofl: @ this:rofl:


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

I expected every litigiuos dick to come out and try to use this to his advantage. I am sure there will be hundreds more stories like that.


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

Boile said:


> One thing is to know what to do (in this case, turn off the engine) and purposely not doing it, for whatever reason (as you conjectures, for a law suit or attention whoring).
> But if his car didn't experience a defect, he'd have to have his foot floored on the accelerator (a Prius running at 90mph is pretty much floored) for 20 mins, even as a cop catches up with him and gives him instructions via the pa system. That would be a major fraud, even criminal I'd say.


You're right. Nobody would have the chutzpah to pull off that sorta hoax.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

I've not heard of any fraudulant claims on the accelerator sticking yet. you can bet that Toyota would be asking for each and every car involved in an incident to be impounded. I wonder if the NTSB is having these vehicles impounded whenever a report is made?


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

ProfessorCook said:


> You're right. Nobody would have the chutzpah to pull off that sorta hoax.


Didn't say it can't happen.
Some parents even kill their own babies and go on TV asking for their safe return.
Just noting that if the Prius is not defective (there are recalls for the brake, not the accelerator) we're dealing with a major fraud (if not criminal act) here, not just attention whoring.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

panerai7 said:


> I understand your point, but comparing a combat dog fight to driving a Prius to a mall is not fair.


He wasn't ambling over to the mall, he was going 90 mph, possibly faster than he ever went in his life. In a freakin' Prius.

Now, if it were a BMW, it would be built for speed, but not a Prius.


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## Psi 5 (Jun 9, 2005)

Blubaron79 said:


> I do keep asking myself, why not put the thing into Neutral?


After the Audi debacle and other "unintended acceleration" events (see any number of elderly drivers plowing through storefronts at strip malls), and as a psychologist who has studied human performance under stressful and unfamiliar situations, my inclination is to agree that driver error is usually to blame.

That said, several reports I have read from seemingly credible drivers reported that they had shifted into neutral and the car stayed in gear and continued to accelerate. Only by turning the car off (which they had the presence of mind to do) were they able to stop it. Who knows what happened in those cases but if the automatic transmissions are drive-by-wire too, I have to accept the possibility, no matter how small, that there may be some underlying software issue at work in at least some of these cases.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Psi 5 said:


> After the Audi debacle and other "unintended acceleration" events (see any number of elderly drivers plowing through storefronts at strip malls), and as a psychologist who has studied human performance under stressful and unfamiliar situations, my inclination is to agree that driver error is usually to blame.
> 
> That said, several reports I have read from seemingly credible drivers reported that they had shifted into neutral and the car stayed in gear and continued to accelerate. Only by turning the car off (which they had the presence of mind to do) were they able to stop it. Who knows what happened in those cases but if the automatic transmissions are drive-by-wire too, I have to accept the possibility, no matter how small, that there may be some underlying software issue at work in at least some of these cases.


Wow :yikes:! dual point failure (accelerate and trans control)?
FMEA anyone? :dunno:


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## BMW-Esq. (Jun 5, 2009)

I don't know what to truly believe in this situation. However, i know without a doubt that there is a definite psychological effect on Toyota drivers.

Personally i want to buy a Toyota and use it as an excuse to speed around town.


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## nonlinear (Feb 4, 2010)

Kamdog said:


> He wasn't ambling over to the mall, he was going 90 mph, *possibly faster than he ever went in his life*. In a freakin' Prius.
> 
> Now, if it were a BMW, it would be built for speed, but not a Prius.


I dunno... did anyone else notice that the guy was wearing a Corvette Owners Club jacket during the CNN interview?


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## jmsent (Sep 26, 2006)

panerai7 said:


> I expected every litigiuos dick to come out and try to use this to his advantage. I am sure there will be hundreds more stories like that.


Yup. All just now coincidentally occurring in a burst of unintended acceleration events on Toyotas of every year and model. The company is obviously possessed by demons.


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## jmsent (Sep 26, 2006)

ProfessorCook said:


> You're right. Nobody would have the chutzpah to pull off that sorta hoax.


LOL!! :rofl:


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

jmsent said:


> Yup. All just now coincidentally occurring in a burst of unintended acceleration events on Toyotas of every year and model. The company is obviously possessed by demons.


I just watched CNN's interview with that guy. He had the sleeziest used car salesman look with the shifty eyes I have ever seen. I am not buying anything he's selling.


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

He's doing all this to set up a lawsuit against Toyota.

You heard it here first, folks.


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

ProfessorCook said:


> He's doing all this to set up a lawsuit against Toyota.
> 
> You heard it here first, folks.


:rofl: He safely stopped the vehicle. He has no damages other than a car repair.

It makes you wonder though. The police got behind him awefully fast. Almost like it was planned.


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

Oh, I'm sure he's suffered some extreme emotional distress. PTSS will prevent him from sleeping, he'll lose his job, have a divorce... I'm sure there are plenty of attorneys in the great state of California that have already thought of calling him up.


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

ProfessorCook said:


> Oh, I'm sure he's suffered some extreme emotional distress. PTSS will prevent him from sleeping, he'll lose his job, have a divorce... I'm sure there are plenty of attorneys in the great state of California that have already thought of calling him up.


Yep. He drives a Prius for gosh sake, hasn't he suffered enough? :rofl:


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## EnterTheDragon (Sep 7, 2009)

Are the mods permanently in a coma? WTF does this have to do with 3-series BMWs?


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

EnterTheDragon said:


> Are the mods permanently in a coma? WTF does this have to do with 3-series BMWs?


Sorry, but coma discussion should be in the off topic section. :slap:


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

At the time of the incident, he passed an E91... damned near hit it. Therefore this thread is in the right place.


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

ProfessorCook said:


> At the time of the incident, he passed an E91... damned near hit it. Therefore this thread is in the right place.


At the time of the incident, he wished he was driving an E90. Therefore this thread is in the right place. :thumbup:


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

Warning... this link has almost nothing to do with this thread or E90s.

http://keysnews.com/node/21349

'Just seemed like it fit the theme, somehow.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

NetSpySD said:


> Sorry, but coma discussion should be in the off topic section. :slap:


a toyota prius is merely a rebadged coma. this is on topic.

in other news, an automotive expert has discovered that a toyota driven off a cliff will accelerate against the driver's wishes. class action lawsuit to follow.


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

I think Toyota should install the 335's HPFP into their cars. That will surely stop acceleration issues. :rofl:


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

He'll get what's coming to him...another Prius.:rofl:


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

ProfessorCook said:


> I am also skeptical. It's too early to know if this guy had a problem for real or if he was looking for attention or to file a lawsuit.
> 
> He wasn't comfortable turning off the car until it slowed to 50? Why not turn it off when it's doing 90? Sure you'll lose the power assist on braking and steering, but the braking wasn't working anyway and power assist on steering really isn't necessary at high speed.


Is it me or does this guy NOT look credible?

I think this guy's either pissed they wouldn't repair his car or a GM spy.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

panerai7 said:


> I just watched CNN's interview with that guy. He had the sleeziest used car salesman look with the shifty eyes I have ever seen. I am not buying anything he's selling.


So it wasn't just me.


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## jmsent (Sep 26, 2006)

NetSpySD said:


> I think Toyota should install the 335's turbos into their cars. That will surely stop acceleration issues. :rofl:


Actually, they should install one of our fuel pumps.


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## PDP///M (Oct 9, 2008)

I bet toyota finds nothing wrong with his prius...


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

PDP///M said:


> I bet toyota finds nothing wrong with his prius...


I agree. Toyotas are suppose to suck. :rofl:


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## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

An auto analyst on CNBC this morning said you can't put it in neutral. 

An asian gentleman who was driving home from church on a Sunday with his family suddenly accelerated his Toyota and killed another driver. They said he pressed the accelerator by mistake. He's doing 8 years in a Minnesota prison. lol.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

That dealership is in trouble:


AP story said:


> Patty Sikes said the family's 2008 Prius appeared to have an accelerator malfunction a few weeks ago but it was brief.
> 
> "It took off for a second, and then it just stopped. It was like a little hiccup or something," she said.
> 
> ...


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

mclaren said:


> An auto analyst on CNBC this morning said you can't put it in neutral.....


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

By itself, the video proves nothing. It proves that a Prius, while not in stuck accellerator mode, will go into neutral. However, if it is a software thing, not a mechanical floormat thing, who can say that the electronics will ignore accellerator inputs but accept joystick inputs?


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

I was wondering why the guy didn't put it in neutral as well. A story I just heard stated that he did put it in neutral and the car kept accelerating. Not sure how that is possible unless the Prius has a different electronic/software system because it's a hybrid.


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## Funkee (Aug 23, 2009)

cinoh said:


> The Prius driver even had the presence of mind to call 911 while hurtling down the road and standing on the brakes--but not enough to slip the car into neutral. Wouldn't that be an obvious part of the 911 operator's script, too?


+1



panerai7 said:


> I don't buy any of this Toyota business, I believe it was orchestrated by a pathetic GM and a korean junk Huydai.


+1 I smell scare tactics to dump Japanese and buy Americans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiSQeaeWxGU&feature=related


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Kamdog said:


> By itself, the video proves nothing. It proves that a Prius, while not in stuck accellerator mode, will go into neutral. However, if it is a software thing, not a mechanical floormat thing, who can say that the electronics will ignore accellerator inputs but accept joystick inputs?


My 2 cents worth is that the sudden acceleration problems will be traced to EMI confusing the ECU/DME (or whatever computer controls the electronic throttle control).

Toyota is blaming floor mats and/or the throttle contraption because if it is the ECU/DME being zapped by EMI, the cost to do a true fix to the problem could probably put even Toyota out of business. Take a repair cost of $1,000 per car and multiply that $1,000 number times every car Toyota produced since say, 2002, and the number is very large. Even for Toyota.

You heard it here first.


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## Alexanderlt (Apr 27, 2009)

cinoh said:


> Just saw this on the ABC Early show. On and on... Interviewed the driver, interviewed a cop/hwy patrol guy, banter between the hosts, what you should do, blah, blah, blah.......... and not a single mention of PUTTING THE FREAKING TRANSMISSION INTO NEUTRAL!


That's EXACTLY what I said!!!! Put the god damn car in neutral! Are they kidding? Im starting to think these people are doing this to get there 5 minutes of fame.. What's the likelihood that it happened in the SD area twice!?


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

anE934fun said:


> My 2 cents worth is that the sudden acceleration problems will be traced to EMI confusing the ECU/DME (or whatever computer controls the electronic throttle control).
> 
> Toyota is blaming floor mats and/or the throttle contraption because if it is the ECU/DME being zapped by EMI, the cost to do a true fix to the problem could probably put even Toyota out of business. Take a repair cost of $1,000 per car and multiply that $1,000 number times every car Toyota produced since say, 2002, and the number is very large. Even for Toyota.
> 
> You heard it here first.


actually we heard it first from the NHTSA last month:thumbup:
I'm still doubtful that the module would be that poorly designed, and that the industry standards are so low that this sort of thing isn't tested in vehicle electronics.


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## drwtsn32 (Sep 30, 2006)

Funkee said:


> +1 I smell scare tactics to dump Japanese and buy Americans.


You gotta be ****tin me. It's so great of Toyota to PLAY ALONG with this government/GM conspiracy!


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

I think it also shows how bad american drivers are comparing to european ones.
I recently went to Prague for business and pleasure, and you should see how people drive there, I was scared for my life every time I was in a cab. Everyone drives like it's a formula 1 race and I haven't seen a single accident. Here people don't even know who to flick the shifter in the neutral.

That's because you gotta go to a real school and training to get a license there, you even need to study a mechanical side of the car to get a driver's license. When I was getting a license here it was a joke, "Can you blow a bubble with your bubble gum? Okay, here's your license."


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

Alexanderlt said:


> That's EXACTLY what I said!!!! Put the god damn car in neutral! Are they kidding? Im starting to think these people are doing this to get there 5 minutes of fame.. What's the likelihood that it happened in the SD area twice!?


According to the wall street journal, on march 10th, the cop yelled into the bull horn for the guy to try putting the car in neutral and try and turn off the car...the guy said it did not work. They had to use brakes+emergency brakes to get to 50 mph then the cop got in front of the guy and bumper slowed him down.

So basically they are saying the failure was:
1) Brakes
2) Accelerator
3) Ignition
4) Gear shifter

A massive failure on that level of so many systems? That's insane - something is either fundementally wrong with all toyotas since 2002 (i doubt it - since all the millions of cars, driven daily and this is the first time this happened) or something is up and not being disclosed.


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## ///M-Furby (Mar 2, 2009)

Kamdog said:


> It is very easy to sit in our comfortable chairs and say what someone else should do while in a high stress environment.


If you can manage to whip out your cell phone, dial 911, and then talk to someone you can easily push a button or shift a lever.

Also - comparing fight pilots who have to maintain flight of a very unstable device, while avoiding getting shot causes a bit more stress then driving fast. You know the "man if i go left I will go into a tail spin, but if i don't go left i am gonna get shot...what do i do"



Kamdog said:


> He wasn't ambling over to the mall, he was going 90 mph, possibly faster than he ever went in his life. In a freakin' Prius.
> 
> Now, if it were a BMW, it would be built for speed, but not a Prius.


Meh, i know we like to be snobs and all, but bmw is not the only car in the world that can do 90mph. I had an 83 toyota corolla back in 1994 and it could do 90 MPH. It would shake/rattle, but I wouldn't feel unsafe. I'd imagine a 2001+ prius can do a bit better then 90MPH. In fact I drove a few (car rentals) and id 90mph. I didn't feel unsafe. Pretty much all cars today can hit 100mph+...maybe not a smart car though


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

furby076 said:


> According to the wall street journal, on march 10th, the cop yelled into the bull horn for the guy to try putting the car in neutral and try and turn off the car...the guy said it did not work. They had to use brakes+emergency brakes to get to 50 mph then the cop got in front of the guy and bumper slowed him down.
> 
> So basically they are saying the failure was:
> 1) Brakes
> ...


I agree. if the sysems were designed this poorly in the first place, its hard to believe that it would take this long for all these issues to manifest themselves.

What are the design guidelines auto systems? I know in the medical device industry that failure modes effects analysis is used to go through a design very thoroughly to ensure a failsafe system, or at least come to the conclusion that a failure mode is so remote that the risk is acceptable. I'd be surprised if this was not the case with vehicle design. but... :dunno:


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

drwtsn32 said:


> You gotta be ****tin me. It's so great of Toyota to PLAY ALONG with this government/GM conspiracy!


+1.
Toyota top boss even came out and apologized to the entire nation in public.
They wouldn't have done that without some (damaging to them) evidence.

If this really turns out to be GM (majority owned by our government) framing them so we buy American, Toyota will end up stronger than before. GM and even the USA can kiss the auto business goodbye. 
Too much of a risk. I don't see it happening.


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

d geek said:


> I agree. if the sysems were designed this poorly in the first place, its hard to believe that it would take this long for all these issues to manifest themselves.
> 
> What are the design guidelines auto systems? I know in the medical device industry that failure modes effects analysis is used to go through a design very thoroughly to ensure a failsafe system, or at least come to the conclusion that a failure mode is so remote that the risk is acceptable. I'd be surprised if this was not the case with vehicle design. but... :dunno:


Do we have any FBI profilers around here? Just look at his CNN interview from yesterday. The guy was clearly lying


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

panerai7 said:


> Do we have any FBI profilers around here? Just look at his CNN interview from yesterday. The guy was clearly lying


if so, then we should know soon enough.

i'm assuming everyone heard about the new Prius incident in upstate NY that happened just yesterday?


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

There may be something to this story, in time we'll know the facts.

In time we found out that Audi drivers were mashing on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. Once the press got zeroed in on Audi there were incidents of runaway acceleration like a tidal wave. '60 Minutes' did an expose on runaway acceleration due to some as yet unknown "design flaw". Owners dumped Audis and the company virtually withdrew from the American market due to a 90% sales decline. Hysteria, all hysteria.

Now throw drive by wire controls into the mix and suddenly we all believe in electronic ghosts. Show me the proof. I'm not denying there could be a glitch of as yet undiscovered type. All I ask is that someone scientifically replicate the problem. Until then, for me the sky isn't falling.

At times like this it is absolutely clear to me how they could have burned witches at the stake in Salem. Made sense at the time, what other reason could there be for Mrs. Pious' cow dropping dead?


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## jkp1187 (Jul 2, 2008)

ProfessorCook said:


> I am also skeptical. It's too early to know if this guy had a problem for real or if he was looking for attention or to file a lawsuit.
> 
> He wasn't comfortable turning off the car until it slowed to 50? Why not turn it off when it's doing 90? Sure you'll lose the power assist on braking and steering, but the braking wasn't working anyway and power assist on steering really isn't necessary at high speed.


I haven't decided yet if this latest fellow is for real or just looking for attention, but just because the guy didn't know how to stop his car in an emergency (Hello? He's a Toyota appliance driver, not someone who knows anything about driving...) that is _not_ proof positive for me that there wasn't also a problem with his car.

(Of course, in the news interview, I think he had a Corvette Owner's Club jacket on...so who knows?)


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

jkp1187 said:


> I haven't decided yet if this latest fellow is for real or just looking for attention, but just because the guy didn't know how to stop his car in an emergency (Hello? He's a Toyota appliance driver, not someone who knows anything about driving...) that is _not_ proof positive for me that there wasn't also a problem with his car.
> 
> (Of course, in the news interview, I think he had a Corvette Owner's Club jacket on...so who knows?)


"He was a Toyota Appliance Driver". That explains it. If he had purchased a BMW he would have instantly become an expert driver and when he swithed over to his Prius he would have know exactly what to do.

Some of the worst driving I have ever seen (and some of the best) was at BMWCCA track days.

CA


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## Nordic_Kat (Aug 5, 2009)

Please help me understand something here.

Years ago, while learning to drive, I was taught that disengaging the engine from the drive shaft - (that is shifting to neutral- correct?) was the thing to do in a situation like this.

In light of the runaway Toyota issue, I was discussing how to shut the E93 off by holding in the start/stop button with BF the other day. He mentioned that shifting into neutral could possibly blow the engine????

I didn't understand his logic and didn't want to argue. Can anyone explain this train of thought to me?

Please enlighten.


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## PDP///M (Oct 9, 2008)

Has anyone heard of this happening to other toyotas in other countries? Im sure the electronics are the same.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Nordic_Kat said:


> Please help me understand something here.
> 
> Years ago, while learning to drive, I was taught that disengaging the engine from the drive shaft - (that is shifting to neutral- correct?) was the thing to do in a situation like this.
> 
> ...


The issue seems to be that the electronics in modern cars does not allow you to shut off the engine or shift into neutral while in motion (AT).

I would think that with all of the recent publicity people (especially Toyota drivers) would have made some kind of an effort to determine what to do in case of a stuck throttle.

CA


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

If an engine is revving hard and you throw it into neutral, there's no resistance and the engine should speed up. With any luck, the rev limiter would kick in and the engine would be ok. If not, or if on a car without a rev limiter, the engine could get ruined, yes. Better that though than launching off the road at 120 mph.

Better to turn off the engine and brake hard. If the engine is turned off it could help brake as well.

I understand how, in a panic situation, people could easily do the wrong thing. I think it likely that there are real issues with the occasional Toyota. This guy, though, looks like an opportunist to me.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

captainaudio said:


> The issue seems to be that the electronics in modern cars does not allow you to shut off the engine or *shift into neutral *while in motion (AT).
> 
> I would think that with all of the recent publicity people (especially Toyota drivers) would have made some kind of an effort to determine what to do in case of a stuck throttle.
> 
> CA


I have practiced this in all my cars, including the Corolla rental I had two weeks ago. Obviously, I kept my foot on the accelerator as best to mimic a stuck throttle.

works as planned


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## gEEkChris (Dec 16, 2007)

Is it just me, or does dialing the phone seem like the last thing a driver would do in a panic situation? If my car is out of control, ALL of my focus is on safely regaining control...trying to dial and talk on a phone would be the last thing to come to mind. I want both hands on the wheel and not wasting 20+ seconds for the phone call. I just can't fathom (as the driver...different if passenger calls) that being in my top ten initial reactions.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

ProfessorCook said:


> If an engine is revving hard and you throw it into neutral, there's no resistance and the engine should speed up. With any luck, the rev limiter would kick in and the engine would be ok. If not, or if on a car without a rev limiter, the engine could get ruined, yes. Better that though than launching off the road at 120 mph.


The rev limiter basically cuts out the fuel supply and the engine decelerates. However, if you disengage the clutch at redline, the engine will still over-rev for a brief time from just removing the load on the engine of the car that is suddenly not being driven by the engine.



> Better to turn off the engine and brake hard. If the engine is turned off it could help brake as well.


+1. The variable is if the Start/Stop button is defective. So far, the Start/Stop button has not been defective.



> I understand how, in a panic situation, people could easily do the wrong thing. I think it likely that there are real issues with the occasional Toyota. This guy, though, looks like an opportunist to me.


People do strange things when in a state of panic. I am not going to second guess what happened. What gets me a bit annoyed (angry?) with Toyota is how they have gone and encrypted the data logs that are kept by the car. There is only one laptop that can de-crypt the data logs in the entire U.S. and that laptop must be operated by a Toyota employee (there is probably only one qualified employee in the entire U.S. as well).

Encrypting the data and limiting access to the data is constructive obstruction on Toyota's part.

An additional no-no on Toyota's part is how they have not implemented a brake-throttle override across all of their models. Even current production does not have brake-throttle override on all models. If the car is accelerating, the natural thing is to hit the brakes. If there is a brake-throttle override, the car stops. No override, and you have news stories like what happened in San Diego.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

The HACK said:


> Okay. Let's say people really ARE stupid enough to make a pass that last more than 15 seconds. Let's change that parameter to 30 seconds or a minute.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> ...


It's only a matter of time. We have a 'gas guzzler' tax. We have 'carbon emission' taxes. We'll have HP or MPH taxes one day. All in the name of conservation of course.
We banned smoking in restaurants. We require that fast food restaurants display calorie counts. NY banned trans fats in restaurant meals. Now NY wants to eliminate use of salt in restaurant kitchens and in containers on tables! Do you think they'll not soon decide to further legislate 'safety' into our cars? Think of the children! Everything can be justified if we can save only one child! Are you against saving the children?


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## Boile (Jul 5, 2005)

DSXMachina said:


> It's only a matter of time. We have a 'gas guzzler' tax. We have 'carbon emission' taxes. We'll have HP or MPH taxes one day. All in the name of conservation of course.
> We banned smoking in restaurants. We require that fast food restaurants display calorie counts. NY banned trans fats in restaurant meals. Now NY wants to eliminate use of salt in restaurant kitchens and in containers on tables! Do you think they'll not soon decide to further legislate 'safety' into our cars? Think of the children! Everything can be justified if we can save only one child! Are you against saving the children?


And the average life span keeps increasing.
It's called progress. :rofl:

And BTW, I'd value more saving a young and productive adult over a child. It's illogical.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

*Update*

Radio announcer on WCBS AM today said that he tried taking his 2001 Prius to 72 MPH, then with the gas pinned, stepping on the brake. He said the car stopped.

He also reported that our friend in CA has some issues:

http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration

ETA: turns out that the California guy's Prius had a brake override: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/03/runaway-prius-case-could-become-toyotas-crisis-turning-point/1


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

DSXMachina said:


> It's only a matter of time. We have a 'gas guzzler' tax. We have 'carbon emission' taxes. We'll have HP or MPH taxes one day. All in the name of conservation of course.
> We banned smoking in restaurants. We require that fast food restaurants display calorie counts. NY banned trans fats in restaurant meals. Now NY wants to eliminate use of salt in restaurant kitchens and in containers on tables! Do you think they'll not soon decide to further legislate 'safety' into our cars? Think of the children! Everything can be justified if we can save only one child! *Are you against saving the children?*


Only if saving them causes me any sort of inconvenience.

CA


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

pony_trekker said:


> Radio announcer on WCBS AM today said that he tried taking his 2001 Prius to 72 MPH, then with the gas pinned, stepping on the brake. He said the car stopped.
> 
> He also reported that our friend in CA has some issues:
> 
> ...


That is not how a brake-throttle override is supposed to work. The basic model is that if you are pressing the accelerator pedal first, and then press the brake pedal, the press on the brake pedal overrides the press on the throttle pedal. Toyota has even put out a press release on how the override is supposed to work: http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/PRN-toyota-evaluates-unintended-acceleration-154747.aspx

According to the press release, the override is supposed to operate at speeds down to 5 mph. If the override in Sikes' Prius does not function as described, then it would seem that Toyota still has a bit of a problem.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

ProfessorCook said:


> 'Just heard on the radio today that the guy lawyered up. 'Told you so.


Well, with the Internets going after him with hammer and tongs, what is surprising is that it took him this long to 'lawyer up'.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

anE934fun said:


> Well, with the Internets going after him with hammer and tongs, what is surprising is that it took him this long to 'lawyer up'.


He's going down faster than Gary Hart after his lost weekend on "Monkey Business".


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## MikeTerp (Feb 3, 2007)

pony_trekker said:


> *Radio announcer on WCBS AM today said that he tried taking his 2001 Prius to 72 MPH, then with the gas pinned, stepping on the brake. He said the car stopped. *
> He also reported that our friend in CA has some issues:
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration
> ...


Since the infamous Audi "unintended acceleration" BS of the 80's, there have been countless "tests" of this situation by various car mags. In EVERY case, the brakes beat the accelerator. Floor the gas and stomp on the brakes and the brakes win EVERY time. No matter the car or the horsepower, the brakes win. The analysis of most of the "unintended acceleration" stories was that people were stepping on the gas, not the brakes. In Audi's case, they redesigned their brake pedals to keep fat-footed Americans, clueless of the notion of a clutch, away from the gas pedal. Most other manufacturers have engineered in idiot-proof solutions so that any pressure on the brake kills any pressure on the gas. Apparently, Toyota has not and they will bear the brunt of the current uproar. That said, let's have some tests of any Toyota floored with the brakes applied at the same time. Hopefully, car magazines are on this now.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

MikeTerp said:


> Since the infamous Audi "unintended acceleration" BS of the 80's, there have been countless "tests" of this situation by various car mags. In EVERY case, the brakes beat the accelerator. Floor the gas and stomp on the brakes and the brakes win EVERY time. No matter the car or the horsepower, the brakes win. .


Wrong Ridley
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-supplier-sticky-gas-pedals-problem/story?id=9689799

It seems to vary car by car


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## alpinweiss (Sep 13, 2009)

Nordic_Kat said:


> Yes, but it might make for at least a short interlude of plausible deniability.. . . . .


"But Your Honor, my car has three pedals on the floor, and I simply got confused as to which one I was pushing. Only after my car exceeded 120 mph did I realize I wasn't pushing the brake pedal. Besides, I didn't know police radar could read that high."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:drive:


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Nordic_Kat said:


> "I can answer this one!!! Professor Pick me, Pick me!" (little blonde girl wildly flailing her hand)
> 
> Have you ever read one of DSX's dissertations on things like Warped Rotors or "aurals". If so, you would begin to understand that he is an improbable character that through knowledge and intuition can usually resolve a problem or untangle a plot. His chariot is a 335i.
> 
> (Sorry DSX, I blew your cover):angel:


Haven't seen those, but I can imagine!


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## gEEkChris (Dec 16, 2007)

This article does a great job of showing Sikes to be a liar and a dirtbag...

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

gEEkChris said:


> This article does a great job of showing Sikes to be a liar and a dirtbag...
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html


Well presented article. But we don't know which side of the story is true yet. The Prius may have failed, it could be a hoax, or Sikes could just be that stupid of a driver. I guess anyone who is $700,000 in debt can't be brilliant, right?


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## MikeTerp (Feb 3, 2007)

pony_trekker said:


> Wrong Ridley
> http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-supplier-sticky-gas-pedals-problem/story?id=9689799
> 
> It seems to vary car by car


Go get a Toyota, any Toyota. Assuming the brakes work, take it up to any speed. Floor the accelerator and simultaneously step hard on the brakes (the actual brake pedal not the gas). The car will stop. The brakes will always overcome the engine. This test has been done ad naseum by multiple car magazines using everything from four cylinder cars to engine-builder designed Mustangs. The brakes ALWAYS win.
The vast majority of these "unintended acceleration" issues involve people stepping on the gas and thinking they were on the brake. Toyota may have electronic issues beyond floor mats, etc, in which the cruise control malfunctions and causes the car to accelerate, but unless this also simultaneously causes all hydraulic pressure to leave the brakes - doubt it - the car should stop if the brakes (the brakes, not the gas) are applied.

Given all the reported cases of "unintended acceleration" by any number of brands of cars over many years, why have we Never heard of subsequent tests in which either NHTSA (or other official organization) came out and said: the brakes didn't work, or could not overcome the engine? Probably because there aren't any.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

MikeTerp said:


> Go get a Toyota, any Toyota. *The car will stop*. The brakes will *always* overcome the engine. The brakes *ALWAYS* win.
> 
> Toyota may have electronic issues beyond floor mats, etc, in which the cruise control malfunctions and causes the car to accelerate, but unless this also simultaneously causes all hydraulic pressure to leave the brakes - doubt it - the *car should stop* if the brakes (the brakes, not the gas) are applied.


Didn't you just contradict yourself? You say WILL and ALWAYS then say SHOULD.

I, for one, don't want take the chance testing brakes or accelerators in a Toyota. Not to mention I wouldn't want to drive a Toyota even with if it is functioning correctly!


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

MikeTerp said:


> The vast majority of these "unintended acceleration" issues involve people stepping on the gas and thinking they were on the brake. Toyota may have electronic issues beyond floor mats, etc, in which the cruise control malfunctions and causes the car to accelerate, *but unless this also simultaneously causes all hydraulic pressure to leave the brakes - doubt it - the car should stop if the brakes* (the brakes, not the gas) are applied.
> 
> Given all the reported cases of "unintended acceleration" by any number of brands of cars over many years, why have we Never heard of subsequent tests in which either NHTSA (or other official organization) came out and said: the brakes didn't work, or could not overcome the engine? Probably because there aren't any.


You are absolutely correct that the _hydraulic_ brakes on any car are *always* stronger than the accelerator. You are also correct that every governmental agency (inside and outside the U.S.) that studied the Audi cases concluded that the cause was driver error.

I highlighted a portion of your quote to ask (I'm not sure): isn't the bone of contention on some of the cases that the cars are drive by wire, and that some sort of flaw in Toyota's ECU is not making a record of the failures that have occurred? So, if the brakes are "by wire", and there is a flaw of some sort in the ECU (not sure how that could occur, but that's the contention), wouldn't it be possible to have no brakes even though the hyudraulic braking system itself is intact? This would differ from the Audi case in that the entire system in the Audi was mechanical connection all the way.


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

Excuuuuse me! You wouldn't wanna drive a Toyota, any Toyota?
That's pretty funny coming from a guy driving a corolla of BMWs.
Some people are just too funny


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## neapolitan (Feb 12, 2009)

gEEkChris said:


> This article does a great job of showing Sikes to be a liar and a dirtbag...
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html


Thanks, GC - I also read that one too. What boggles me is that people have such a handicap in figuring out if something is plausible or not. I don't pretend to be some sort of savant, but from the first day I said to my colleagues this was a hoax (I think almost everybody outside the mainstream media had the suspicion!)

In a Prius that is 3 years old, suddenly this happens now, at the peak of the hype and hysteria? The guy has time to call 911? (listen to the audio if you can stand it; it is all over the web.)

Totally implausible and faked.


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## jmsent (Sep 26, 2006)

Joseph said:


> So, if the brakes are "by wire",


They aren't. There's really no such thing as "drive by wire" in a car. There's only "throttle by wire" Brakes and steering are pretty much the same as always except that they have electronic enhancements such as ABS or active steering that can modulate inputs from the driver. One would have to accept a simultaneous failure of the electronic throttle along with a total disabling of the braking system by the computer (virtually impossible). What likely happens when the "brakes don't work" is that the brakes have faded due to being "pumped" instead of just jamming down hard on them to stop the car. As long as normal braking power is available, the brakes will always be able to overpower the engine. Consider how much longer it takes to accelerate from 0-60 than it does to brake from 60-0


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## 335i Driver (Nov 29, 2006)

Thanks for the article Chris, exactly what I was saying.

"Sikes, who has driven the car for two years, also said "I figured if I knocked it over [the gear knob] the car might flip."

How can any human be this stupid, this guy needs to be eliminated from the human race.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

jmsent said:


> They aren't. There's really no such thing as "drive by wire" in a car. There's only "throttle by wire" Brakes and steering are pretty much the same as always except that they have electronic enhancements such as ABS or active steering that can modulate inputs from the driver. One would have to accept a simultaneous failure of the electronic throttle along with a total disabling of the braking system by the computer (virtually impossible). What likely happens when the "brakes don't work" is that the brakes have faded due to being "pumped" instead of just jamming down hard on them to stop the car. As long as normal braking power is available, the brakes will always be able to overpower the engine. Consider how much longer it takes to accelerate from 0-60 than it does to brake from 60-0


Not 100% true. Mercedes has utilized true "brake by wire" systems (my 2005 E55 was one model) but has since reverted to direct hydraulic systems - too many problems and poor pedal "feel".

Dick


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## neapolitan (Feb 12, 2009)

dkreidel said:


> Not 100% true. Mercedes has utilized true "brake by wire" systems (my 2005 E55 was one model) but has since reverted to direct hydraulic systems - too many problems and poor pedal "feel".
> 
> Dick


Interesting, thanks for that info. I was unaware also that any production car in US ever used brake by wire!


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

MB used this system for about 2 years and abandoned it. I'm not aware of any brake failures, but brake pedal feel was poor and MB did take a lot of heat over lousy pedal fidelity. Not sure about all MB, but the E55 AMG (a high performance car) had the system.

Dick


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## gEEkChris (Dec 16, 2007)

335i Driver said:


> Thanks for the article Chris, exactly what I was saying.
> 
> "Sikes, who has driven the car for two years, also said "I figured if I knocked it over [the gear knob] the car might flip."
> 
> How can any human be this stupid, this guy needs to be eliminated from the human race.


Yes, that statement was one of my favorites as well. Basically, Sikes has painted himself into 2 choices...he is either the one of the biggest effing liars you'll meet, or one of the dumbest humans to walk upright...pick one.:tsk:

I have to tell you. I still have trouble believing that you can drive at 90mph for 20+ minutes and not hit something. I can't believe any roads are that open. I have a feeling even that was fake.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

MikeTerp said:


> Blah blah blah.


Watch. The. Video.


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## neapolitan (Feb 12, 2009)

gEEkChris said:


> Basically, Sikes has painted himself into 2 choices...he is either the one of the biggest effing liars you'll meet, or one of the dumbest humans to walk upright...pick one.:tsk:


Actually, I think both are true. 



gEEkChris said:


> I have to tell you. I still have trouble believing that you can drive at 90mph for 20+ minutes and not hit something. I can't believe any roads are that open. I have a feeling even that was fake.


Indeed -- he had control over the throttle during the "escapade." I wonder if the police car had his dash cam activated, or if there were any other witnesses? That would be interesting to analyze (e.g. car slowing down without brake lights activating).

The fact there aren't a lot of witness accounts also is suspicious -- I'm sure you'd end up in the left hand paved shoulder / lane, putting hazard lights on, etc., if you truly had a stuck throttle. Look how long that trooper lasted when his accelerator was stuck, granted it was a lexus.


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## TerraPhantm (Nov 22, 2004)

gEEkChris said:


> I have to tell you. I still have trouble believing that you can drive at 90mph for 20+ minutes and not hit something. I can't believe any roads are that open. I have a feeling even that was fake.


Well on the right highways you can... there are a couple over here where I've seen traffic moving consistently at 100mph+... I was literally passed by dozens of cars when I was traveling at 95mph.


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## gEEkChris (Dec 16, 2007)

neapolitan said:


> Actually, I think both are true.
> 
> Indeed -- he had control over the throttle during the "escapade." I wonder if the police car had his dash cam activated, or if there were any other witnesses? That would be interesting to analyze (e.g. car slowing down without brake lights activating).
> 
> The fact there aren't a lot of witness accounts also is suspicious -- I'm sure you'd end up in the left hand paved shoulder / lane, putting hazard lights on, etc., if you truly had a stuck throttle. Look how long that trooper lasted when his accelerator was stuck, granted it was a lexus.


I didn't know about the lack of witness accounts. I mean...seeing a prius at 90+ is like seeing a UFO...there should have been hundreds of witnesses in shock! :rofl:


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## gEEkChris (Dec 16, 2007)

TerraPhantm said:


> Well on the right highways you can... there are a couple over here where I've seen traffic moving consistently at 100mph+... I was literally passed by dozens of cars when I was traveling at 95mph.


It is not that I haven't been in some fast stretches...especially here in CO where the speed limit is 75 everywhere. BUT, remember that if your throttle is stuck you can't modulate your speed AT ALL. When I have gotten in these stretches, there are always times where you have to tap your brakes and then speed up again. This would have been 30 MILES! That is ALOT of completely unobstructed road. Even through Kansas, there is always that ONE guy going 5 under limit and driving next to a semi somewhere.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

gEEkChris said:


> It is not that I haven't been in some fast stretches...especially here in CO where the speed limit is 75 everywhere. BUT, remember that if your throttle is stuck you can't modulate your speed AT ALL. When I have gotten in these stretches, there are always times where you have to tap your brakes and then speed up again. This would have been 30 MILES! That is ALOT of completely unobstructed road. Even through Kansas, there is always that ONE guy going 5 under limit and driving next to a semi somewhere.


In Southern California you can't go 5 feet without hitting the brake.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

Watch this video. Clear the kids out of the room first. This says it all.


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## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

The guy in the video is an ignorant moron. Also, the video proves nothing since if there is a problem it doesn't affect all toyotas.


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## DSXMachina (Dec 20, 2007)

mclaren said:


> The guy in the video is an ignorant moron. Also, the video proves nothing since if there is a problem it doesn't affect all toyotas.


He proved the car could be put into neutral without causing it to "flip over".
He proved you could press the start/stop button and make it stop.
He proved that if it's put into neutral the accelerator is ineffective.
He proved that if the engine is shut down the car can still brake.

I suppose all those things failed to be possible on the West Coast runaway Prius. Or the 'victim' is perpetrating a hoax. He's the moron.


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## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

DSXMachina said:


> He proved the car could be put into neutral without causing it to "flip over".
> He proved you could press the start/stop button and make it stop.
> He proved that if it's put into neutral the accelerator is ineffective.
> He proved that if the engine is shut down the car can still brake.
> ...


He proved all those things in THAT car.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

mclaren said:


> The guy in the video is an ignorant moron.


+1. He is a microcosm of what is wrong with people in America. Uneducated, unsophisticated, arrogant, bigots, and flat out WRONG. And we wonder why our country is going downhill.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

DSXMachina said:


> He proved the car could be put into neutral without causing it to "flip over".
> He proved you could press the start/stop button and make it stop.
> He proved that if it's put into neutral the accelerator is ineffective.
> He proved that if the engine is shut down the car can still brake.
> ...


Sikes may be a moron AND pulling a hoax, but specifically re: the video, the guy proved that a functional Prius functions, nothing more (well, he also proved that Americans can be trashy, rude, unsophisticated, bigots, a**holes, stupid, ugly, etc).


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## neapolitan (Feb 12, 2009)

thebmw said:


> +1. He is a microcosm of what is wrong with people in America. Uneducated, unsophisticated, arrogant, bigots, and flat out WRONG. And we wonder why our country is going downhill.


And cowardly - for his undereducated rant he has to cover his face, for he does not want to take responsibility for his words.

The whole Toyota hysteria (and general moral panic / politics / "outrage") brings out the worst in these kinds of people (Sikes and youtube poster), both waiting for an excuse to misbehave. :tsk:


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

neapolitan said:


> And cowardly - for his undereducated rant he has to cover his face, for he does not want to take responsibility for his words.
> 
> The whole Toyota hysteria (and general moral panic / politics / "outrage") brings out the worst in these kinds of people (Sikes and youtube poster), both waiting for an excuse to misbehave. :tsk:


+1. I forgot to address his cowardliness. Well, at least somewhere deep inside that pathetic excuse for an American, he realizes he best be incognito.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

DSXMachina said:


> He proved the car could be put into neutral without causing it to "flip over".
> He proved you could press the start/stop button and make it stop.
> He proved that if it's put into neutral the accelerator is ineffective.
> He proved that if the engine is shut down the car can still brake.
> ...


I am waiting to see what (or if) the data log shows. Toyota hasn't helped their case with having only 1 laptop in the entire U.S. that can retrieve the data logs....


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## jmsent (Sep 26, 2006)

anE934fun said:


> I am waiting to see what (or if) the data log shows. Toyota hasn't helped their case with having only 1 laptop in the entire U.S. that can retrieve the data logs....


Event recorders in cars aren't even required until something like 2012. Toyota admitted in the hearings that their system is still under development. The car has already been examined by Toyota and the feds, and of course, shows nothing wrong (It's the pesky gremlins yet again). But a big problem for Mr. Sikes is that his brakes show no sign of excessive wear or over heating.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

335i Driver said:


> I don't really think insulting the character of someone you don't know is a joke.


I don't know what the history between you and neopolitan is, but on a side note, I had the same thing happen to me multiple times when captainaudio made personal attacks on me regarding posts. He had a 50/50 chance of being right about his insults. He was wrong. But what came out of it was his own insecurities. It's hilarious when someone who calls themselves "the worlds foremost authority" and "upper east side manhattan 10021" calls someone else elitist! It's obvious that his insecurities about being wrong cause him to project his feelings about himself onto others that he has never met!

Again, unsophisticated...but much like what I am seeing in America nowadays.


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## Grey3 (Dec 28, 2009)

Im sure many have seen but I didn't see an article posted
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runaway_prius

I like how he pressed the gas and brake so many times it was more than the log could track.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Looks like Honda is recalling cars for brake problems too. Can the Japanese make cars with functional brakes anymore?!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_honda_recall


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

More crashed Priuses for Toyota to investigate. This time, it's in NY:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-shifts-scrutiny-of-apf-252747583.html?x=0


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

thebmw said:


> More crashed Priuses for Toyota to investigate. This time, it's in NY:
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-shifts-scrutiny-of-apf-252747583.html?x=0


And once again there will be nothing wrong with the car. I called the Sikes debacle the moment the new broke, and it will be the same here. A bogus non-story. CHP said there was no reason to doubt Sikes when the story broke. The evidence from them on leads us to the contrary conclusion. The propensity of people to do stupid things to get in the news, get on TV, try to get bogus damages or perhaps to get out of a car payment never ceases to amaze me. Nor does the propensity of ambulance-chasing lawyers to appear on the scene shortly thereafter. I hope Toyota sues the crap out of these charlatans to deter others. They are going on the offensive now, as they should. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There will be very few of these incidents that are ultimately found to be genuine. Combine stupid people with an uncritical media, unscrupulous lawyers and a corporation with deep pockets and you can all too easily predict the outcome. Welcome to America...


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## gEEkChris (Dec 16, 2007)

thebmw said:


> Looks like Honda is recalling cars for brake problems too. Can the Japanese make cars with functional brakes anymore?!
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_honda_recall


You obviously work for goverment motors (GM). You were wrong about Sikes even though you defended him to the end, and now you are just making stuff up. (Toyota's problem is not the brakes) How sophisticated and European of you.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

gEEkChris said:


> You obviously work for goverment motors (GM). You were wrong about Sikes even though you defended him to the end, and now you are just making stuff up. (Toyota's problem is not the brakes) How sophisticated and European of you.


What in the world are you talking about GEEK? I love these posts where someone makes assumptions about others over the internet. I didn't advocate or defend anyone. I did, however, present both sides. Perhaps, in your prejudiced mind, you objected to hearing both sides? Disappointing clearly...but not surprising.

BTW, you should read the facts before posting. Toyota has recalls out for their acceleration, braking, and steering issues. Now you tell me...what facts have been made up?


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

gEEkChris said:


> You obviously work for goverment motors (GM).


Hey Geek, did you read this story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100317/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_no_fix

The complaints against Toyota have nearly doubled in the last two weeks on cars THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN REPAIRED. But you're right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of Toyota's cars. In fact, all the citizens in America who have complained over the better part of this decade are all liars. It's all a national conspiracy and you're the only one left out. :wahwah:

If you're so confident in Toyotas, why don't you sell your BMW and go back and drive a Toyota? What bittersweet irony it would be if you ended up crashing in one!


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

Toyota always had issues. Reliable, but full of issues.

The main issue is they drive/handle so poorly, you cannot tell anything is wrong.:rofl:


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## neapolitan (Feb 12, 2009)

thebmw said:


> Hey Geek, did you read this story:
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100317/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_no_fix
> 
> ...


My gosh. :yikes:  :tsk:

Palin 2012! Palin 2012! Palin 2012!

Plonk. :rofl:


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

neapolitan said:


> My gosh. :yikes:  :tsk:
> 
> Palin 2012! Palin 2012! Palin 2012!
> 
> Plonk. :rofl:


If Palin wins in 2012, then driving a Toyota doesn't seem so bad in comparison.:rofl:


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## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

anE934fun said:


> My 2 cents worth is that the sudden acceleration problems will be traced to EMI confusing the ECU/DME (or whatever computer controls the electronic throttle control).
> 
> Toyota is blaming floor mats and/or the throttle contraption because if it is the ECU/DME being zapped by EMI, the cost to do a true fix to the problem *could probably put even Toyota out of business*. Take a repair cost of $1,000 per car and multiply that $1,000 number times every car Toyota produced since say, 2002, and the number is very large. Even for Toyota.
> 
> You heard it here first.


I almost died laughing when I read that. :rofl:

Toyota could not sell another car for something like 12 years while continuing at its normal operating costs, and still be in buisness. In other words, they have more money than they know what to do with.


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## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

thebmw said:


> I was referring to the "other" remarks. Also, he failed to mention potential electrical/software issues. He had implied or stated that all the problems were driver error. If you cut out all that non factual stuff, his facts about how to put the car in neutral were correct. He could have made this point in less than 30 seconds.


There are no "potential electrical/software issues". You are either uneducated about how an electronic throttle system works, or your just an idiot. There are too too many failsafe systems put in place to prevent an electrical acceleration problem. Its just not possible, plain and simple.

If the electronic throttle input differs with the accelerator position, the system shuts down. Everytime, bottom line.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

dannyc9997 said:


> There are no "potential electrical/software issues". You are either uneducated about how an electronic throttle system works, or your just an idiot. There are too too many failsafe systems put in place to prevent an electrical acceleration problem. Its just not possible, plain and simple.
> 
> If the electronic throttle input differs with the accelerator position, the system shuts down. Everytime, bottom line.


I guess Steve Wozniak is also uneducated and an idiot. Or I am expecting too much from you to know who that is? To say that an electronic failure can never happen is simply naive. But I'm not your daddy so I could care less how naive or educated you are. When you create a computer company, then you have the right to post naive statements like the one you just posted. Until then, for your sake, don't post immature statements.

Again, I love it when people insult other people personally though they have never met. Danny, trust me, I'm certain I have more degrees and letters after my name than your family combined...and I don't mean that as a personal insult, just a _very_ likely fact. Stay in school little boy.


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## dannyc9997 (May 15, 2008)

thebmw said:


> I guess Steve Wozniak is also uneducated and an idiot. Or I am expecting too much for you to know who that is? To say that something can never happen is simply naive. But I'm not your daddy so I could care less how naive or educated you are. When you create a computer company, then you have the right to post naive statements like the one you just posted. Until then, for your sake, don't post immature statements.
> 
> Again, I love it when people insult other people personally though they have never met. Danny, trust me, I'm certain I have more degrees and letters after my name than you family combined...and I don't mean that as a personal insult, just a _very_ likely fact. Stay in school little boy.


:dunno: Can you explain to me a situation where it could happen? Tell me some scenario in which the system would fail, causing full throttle unintended acceleration and prove it to me. Do you need a copy of the wiring diagrams because I have all of them and have been working with field technicians who have been trying night and day for the last few months attempting to answer that question without success.

Maybe you just think people are just sitting around blowing this issue off as if it was nothing. Apparently you believe some guy who says in just a matter of minutes he has replicated something well trained master engineers have been trying to reproduce for months.

The fact is your wrong. You have nothing to back up your argument, and no proof that any such problem exists. Yet you post mis-information on the internet, which is the exact cause for all of this drama. People like you have blown this situation so out of proportion, its not even funny.

If the same thing was done for the Ford ignition switch/cruise control wiring related vehicle fire issue, Ford would be long out of buisness at this point. Its just silly what people with a keyboard and false information can do. :tsk:


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

dannyc9997 said:


> :dunno:


Just curious, do you work for Toyota?

I agree the problem has been made to seem that every car is flawed when, in fact, that's hardly the case. My point simply was that one can never say never. The fact that a flaw has not been found doesn't mean a flaw does not exist. That is the basis of human ignorance throughout history. Toyota may be completely correct that there is no flaw. The point is though, nobody is 100% sure. And, IMO, Toyota execs (well, more than just Toyota execs) had lost my trust decades ago as I'll describe below.

I think engineers are the smartest members of our society and they have my full respect. I know some that are so brilliant that I can't understand a word they are saying (figuratively). I'm not claiming I discovered the answer, merely playing "devil's advocate" that just because we have hoaxers out there and just because not every car is flawed, some probably (rather, most likely) are.

Putting everything from recent events aside, I have directly or indirectly met and dealt with execs from Toyota since the 80's. They are extremely polite but extremely overconfident. They cannot admit that they are wrong. I believe that when one is wrong, they should admit it. To me, that's the ultimate sign of true confidence. Toyota did not earnestly do that for a long time and one can argue that they still are not doing that.

Whether there are 8 cars, 800 cars, or 8 million cars affected, they should have been honest from the beginning. That's my biggest complaint with them and the reason I feel they should suffer any bad publicity they get for covering up or even lying about the truth and what they knew.

BTW, at no time am I defending Ford or their coverups.


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## BLT (Jan 30, 2006)

dannyc9997 said:


> The fact is your wrong. You have nothing to back up your argument, and no proof that any such problem exists. Yet you post mis-information on the internet, which is the exact cause for all of this drama. People like you have blown this situation so out of proportion, its not even funny.





thebmw said:


> Just curious, do you work for Toyota?


I have been sitting back are watching how you have addressed this issue. In this thread the guy who claimed he had a run away Toyota turns out to be bankrupt, in debt $700K and hasn't made a payment on his Prius for over 5 months. Each one of those facts provide a enough financial motivation for him to pull off a stunt like this to get some quick cash. Once the "black box" data was in and it was clear that this guy had pushed the brake and gas pedal well over 250 times during his "wild ride" it was clear that this case was a hoax.
The vast majority of this unintended acceleration cases are drivers over 60, so it is clear that the electronics in Toyotas hate old people and are out to get them.
I think dannyc9997 has you pegged, you're just a big mouth with a keyboard and no facts.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

BLT said:


> I have been sitting back are watching how you have addressed this issue. In this thread the guy who claimed he had a run away Toyota turns out to be bankrupt, in debt $700K and hasn't made a payment on his Prius for over 5 months. Each one of those facts provide a enough financial motivation for him to pull off a stunt like this to get some quick cash. Once the "black box" data was in and it was clear that this guy had pushed the brake and gas pedal well over 250 times during his "wild ride" it was clear that this case was a hoax.
> The vast majority of this unintended acceleration cases are drivers over 60, so it is clear that the electronics in Toyotas hate old people and are out to get them.
> I think dannyc9997 has you pegged, you're just a big mouth with a keyboard and no facts.


BLT, I'm so grad that you have been sitting on the sidelines, just you and your sandwich, "watching". You should have been searching and reading instead. Why don't you go back and read post #58, #153, and #176. I clearly state that _I think_ Sikes' claim is probably a hoax.

Do you have evidence that the majority of unintended acceleration were drivers over 60? Have you reviewed ALL the NHTSA complaints? If so, how do you have access to NHTSA databases? Where do you get YOUR facts? And are you implying that everyone over the age of 60 either cannot drive or are con artists? Those are pretty bold and reprehensible statements.

Again, I love it when random people make judgements about others that they have never met. It's such a great sign of immaturity and lack of self confidence. In the future, do yourself a favor and do your research before you pass judgement so you don't look like an a**.


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## BLT (Jan 30, 2006)

thebmw said:


> Do you have evidence that the majority of unintended acceleration were drivers over 60? Have you reviewed ALL the NHTSA complaints? If so, how do you have access to NHTSA databases? Where do you get YOUR facts?


Yes, I do.



> The Los Angeles Times recently did a story detailing all of the NHTSA reports of Toyota "sudden acceleration" fatalities, and, though the Times did not mention it, the ages of the drivers involved were striking.
> 
> *In the 24 cases where driver age was reported or readily inferred, the drivers included those of the ages 60, 61, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 72, 77, 79, 83, 85, 89*-and I'm leaving out the son whose age wasn't identified, but whose 94-year-old father died as a passenger.
> *These "electronic defects" apparently discriminate against the elderly, just as the sudden acceleration of Audis and GM autos did before them.* (If computers are going to discriminate against anyone, they should be picking on the young, who are more likely to take up arms against the rise of the machines and future Terminators).


Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...f-my-Toyota-Prius-87361597.html#ixzz0iXU58aPY

Oh and by the way, I deleted your straw man argument, I hope you can do better than that in the future.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

BLT said:


> Yes, I do.
> 
> Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...f-my-Toyota-Prius-87361597.html#ixzz0iXU58aPY
> 
> Oh and by the way, I deleted your straw man argument, I hope you can do better than that in the future.


That's a nice opinion article...but it's just that, an opinion. And so is what I'm posting and so is what you're posting, etc. BTW, I'm not going to state whether I agree with it or not as it really doesn't matter as the points I'm trying to make really have nothing to do with the article.

Read this and process it: My underlying point is that Toyota has known about issues with their cars and were not upfront and honest about it. Like I said before, other auto companies do the same thing, but for some reason, so many people have a blind faith with Toyota and refuse to believe that they could have lied or made a product that was not perfect. If this was another company (esp. the big 3), nobody would be even stating that it would be driver error (even if it was).

The article stated 24 driver's ages. There have been hundred and hundreds of complaints. I hardly call less than 5% of the complaints the "vast majority"! If you truly had data from all the complaints, I would really be interested in seeing that. I'm not claiming that I know all the ages, but neither do you. So stop implying that every driver was over the age of 60 and that all drivers over the age of 60 cannot drive. That is a very pompous and arrogant statement.


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