# Decrease in ED trip posts



## Ucla95 (Jul 23, 2004)

Trinitony said:


> In the first five months of 2007 and 2008 there were nearly 1000 threads that ended in the first five months of the year. In 2009 and 2010 this declined to about 500. In the period 2011 through 2015 the count declined from about 400 to 300. And in 2016 there were only 125 threads that ended in the first five months.


Wow.


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## Ucla95 (Jul 23, 2004)

technic said:


> to me, the main reason of that increase of ed posts in ...post is because of the sudden increase of individual m3/m4 of this f-f8x generation. That causes a lot of excitement and naturally others follow. Which is interesting because i also think that bimmerfest ed forum helped a lot to that increase in ed participation in the other forum, as there was no significant ed knowledge base there even three years ago. Bimmerfest ed forum got a lot of referrals from ...post members looking for ed information that was not easily found over there.
> 
> Imo, the difference is one of reaction to ed posts. I remember posting my last two eds in this forum and got perhaps 30 comments at the most between the two. The same exact two posts over there got hundreds of comments.


+1, the homepage of the other site is somehow more engaging as well


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## filstan (Aug 6, 2007)

I completed my 3rd ED in early May. I never got around to writing much about the trip in this thread although I did post something about the experience. The bottom line is this. Yes air fares have gone up and stayed high now for the past 2-3 years. BMW owners though are not penny pinchers. Why someone would not choose to experience ED is baffling to me. You not only save money on the purchase of your new car, but you get to pick it up at the Welt which is a pretty cool experience. Better now than it was 7-9 years ago when I did my first ED's. You get to drive a great car and not pay up for a rental. Experience driving on great roads where your new car will really shine. Drop off is very simple and even more convenient especially if you are flying out of Munich. What is not to like about this experience? For those that have no desire to drive their new car on vacation and on world class roads, ok so be it. ED is still the only way to go if buying a new BMW in my book. A real no brainer. Can't wait to pick up the new car at the Performance Center in a few more weeks.


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## roup1 (Dec 24, 2001)

I agree with OP's observations. I did my first ED back in 1999, before Bimmerfest was around. Back then, it was Roadfly and that's where I first met Jon Shafer and learned about ED invoice deals. I have done about 15 EDs since 1999. There were some years where I was doing two EDs per year. Here's my take:

- ED is not as attractive financially as before. The 2% discount reduction was a factor but I believe a bigger factor is the heavy discounting and incentives on new models for US delivery. I was looking to do ED on an X1 this summer. It actually ended up being cheaper to get one here vs. ED. In all my years of doing ED, I've never encountered that before.

- Most new BMWs have horrible resale value. This was not the case 10-15 years ago. In fact, I remember the 3-series being the benchmark for having one of the best resale values in the industry. I'm sure that this has a lot to do with the heavy discounting on new models - it depresses used values. In the past, I could drive an ED car for 6 months and sell it for almost what I paid for it. The last time that I sold an ED car after 6 months was my 2014 435i. I lost $8k in value in 6 months (not including tax & license). And that's a car that I bought on ED at the equivalent of $7400 below US MSRP and sold with only 4000 miles. 

- BMW product has lost its appeal to me. As stated by others, I do believe that they have lost their way. Maybe this is related to their dogged pursuit of higher volume. The cars seem more bland, too bloated, too mass-market and less oriented towards enthusiasts. There are some positive signs in my opinion like the 2-series and M2 specifically but that seems to be the exception. 

- Reducing the maintenance benefit was a big turn off for me. That is something that differentiated BMW for years, even as other manufacturers reduced their included maintenance. 

- As a result of the program changes and financial considerations, I would not be surprised if BMW is doing fewer EDs than before. 

I will still consider doing ED in the future if BMW has something that interests me. We love to travel to Europe and we do try to take extended trips at least every other year. I have also learned my lesson that it will make more financial sense to lease an ED car instead of buying. And only if BMW is incentivizing the money factor and residual rates!

For this summer, we decided to forgo BMW and are heading to Stuttgart instead to pick up a Macan S. I will say that even though there are fewer posts on this board than before, it's far superior to any ED forums about any other brand. This is my first Porsche ED and it was a painful process to learn the ins and outs of that program. The P-car forums for ED leave much to be desired!


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## ChicagoBigHouse (Sep 2, 2013)

Roup1,

Thanks for your post. Perhaps you can give some insight into the Porsche ED program later this summer!


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

roup1 said:


> - ED is not as attractive financially as before. The 2% discount reduction was a factor but I believe a bigger factor is the heavy discounting and incentives on new models for US delivery. I was looking to do ED on an X1 this summer. It actually ended up being cheaper to get one here vs. ED. In all my years of doing ED, I've never encountered that before.


This is already built or built to order cars? Big difference IMO.


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## pistolpuma (Mar 22, 2007)

You do ED nowadays because of the experience not because of price savings. The cost savings just aren't there. Airfares, reduction in ED discount, loss of use during transport, increases in U.S. incentives, and (sadly) safety concerns all have made it less attractive.

When I did my first ED, dealers were getting close to MSRP. Very little discounts. I was able to do ED, drive it here for 12-18 months and flip to a new one for essentially what I paid. For 5 or 6 years I was able drive without depreciation. Pretty good deals but no longer.

(Last year, the F10 I priced for PCD was actually cheaper than ED by $500. And that was with using miles for my airfare.)

If you have never been to Europe and want to really see the continent and experience the cultures , do it. It truly is awesome and really enhances the experience. But if your motive is to save money, do the math and weigh the value of that "experience."

Note: I am strongly considering doing ED for a G30 next year. We are due for another trip and figure there will be fewer incentives and lesser discounts on the new 5 ...at least initially.


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## Asteroid (Aug 17, 2005)

Let's not forget that some of the prolific posters of the past seldom post now. I noticed that beewang really slowed down on his posts a couple of years ago to the point where I don't remember seeing him in a while. JSpira surely is occupied by his ventures (The Diesel Driver and The Green Car Driver). The guy who started bmwblog used to post here, as did a contributor to bimmerfile but their focus must be on creating content for their sites.
One of our most helpful and knowledgeable posters passed on (miss you b-y), and another legendary guy left after a spat and vowed not to post here anymore but he posts great stories on the Porsche board (rennlist, his handle is z356) that generate 50-60 pages of comments.
Maybe because the crazy lease deals are less available, chrischeung hasn't started a thread or two urging people to get on the next Alpina B7 or M3 vert. I miss those posts even when I wasn't looking for that car.
Snareman is right in that there's more activity at b-post, including ED trip reports which it never had 3-4 years ago.
I hope to contribute a report, maybe towards the end of the year.

PS: I think posting something like Cal>>Oregon would get beewang out of the woodwork


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

Asteroid said:


> Let's not forget that some of the prolific posters of the past seldom post now. I noticed that beewang really slowed down on his posts a couple of years ago to the point where I don't remember seeing him in a while. JSpira surely is occupied by his ventures (The Diesel Driver and The Green Car Driver). The guy who started bmwblog used to post here, as did a contributor to bimmerfile but their focus must be on creating content for their sites.
> One of our most helpful and knowledgeable posters passed on (miss you b-y), and another legendary guy left after a spat and vowed not to post here anymore but he posts great stories on the Porsche board (rennlist, his handle is z356) that generate 50-60 pages of comments.


And boltjames. Whatever happened to get him banned?


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## roup1 (Dec 24, 2001)

ChicagoBigHouse said:


> Roup1,
> 
> Thanks for your post. Perhaps you can give some insight into the Porsche ED program later this summer!


Sure, I'd be happy to share my experience. Just the purchase experience alone is quite a contrast from the BMW process with a steep learning curve. We leave next Monday and pick up on July 5. I'll write up a post from the road.


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## roup1 (Dec 24, 2001)

Gary J said:


> This is already built or built to order cars? Big difference IMO.


Yes, both cars were built to order with exact same configuration.


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## pawarrant (Jun 15, 2006)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...-already-down-13-compared-last-year/82268504/

I think it has a lot to do with security. State Department travel warnings to Europe and recent attacks in Belgium and Paris coupled with the refugee crisis is a big reason tourism in Europe is down. The general decrease in european tourism means less EDs. With that being said, I believe the decrease in the ED discount in this stagnant economy has played a significant role as well.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Having done ED previously, it is a wonderful experience with or without a discount. That said, there is absolutely no financial advantage of doing ED anymore. When you factor in the plane tickets and hotel, coupled with the discounts that you can get right here in the US, it's a wash. Not to mention lost revenue from time off of work. So it seems the only people who do ED now are the ones that are going for the experience, not the cost savings.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

thebmw said:


> Having done ED previously, it is a wonderful experience with or without a discount. That said, there is absolutely no financial advantage of doing ED anymore. When you factor in the plane tickets and hotel, coupled with the discounts that you can get right here in the US, it's a wash. Not to mention lost revenue from time off of work. So it seems the only people who do ED now are the ones that are going for the experience, not the cost savings.


I'm getting $8,000 off my car and there is no way I'm going to spend that on the trip. Its not what it used to be, but that's still quite a savings


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Snareman said:


> I'm $8,000 off my car and there is no way I'm going to spend that on the trip. Its not what it used to be, but that's still quite a savings


Since you're getting a M4, you will come out ahead as discounts are minimal here. But on other non-M cars, not so much. I think that is part of the problem. And now 2016's are going for 10-15% off new. Our local dealer has a 2016 3-series for 25% off (new title but was a demo).

And maybe people are taking fewer trips to Europe currently for a variety of other reasons.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

thebmw said:


> Since you're getting a M4, you will come out ahead as discounts are minimal here. But on other non-M cars, not so much. I think that is part of the problem. And now 2016's are going for 10-15% off new. Our local dealer has a 2016 3-series for 25% off (new title but was a demo).
> 
> And maybe people are taking fewer trips to Europe currently for a variety of other reasons.


Wow, those are some big discounts. I love the ED experience, but you could probably talk me out of going to Europe for 10-15% off


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Snareman said:


> Wow, those are some big discounts. I love the ED experience, but you could probably talk me out of going to Europe for 10-15% off


Remember, those discounts are on the more "boring" BMWs! But if there was a "M" on the lot, I'm sure you could haggle a 10% discount soon. Standard BMW depreciation is 20% the first year assuming about 10K miles and 10-15% with zero miles. 2016 is technically 1 year old very soon.

Which then brings the question, is going to Europe worth the extra 2% discount. I know you are getting a 2017 and a M, so this may not apply in your case. Again, this is assuming someone is doing ED solely for the savings. It's the reason I've decided not to do ED anytime soon.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

thebmw said:


> Remember, those discounts are on the more "boring" BMWs! But if there was a "M" on the lot, I'm sure you could haggle a 10% discount soon. Standard BMW depreciation is 20% the first year assuming about 10K miles and 10-15% with zero miles. 2016 is technically 1 year old very soon.
> 
> Which then brings the question, is going to Europe worth the extra 2% discount. I know you are getting a 2017 and a M, so this may not apply in your case. Again, this is assuming someone is doing ED solely for the savings. It's the reason I've decided not to do ED anytime soon.


I guess it depends on how you view it from a few angles. When I got my first 335 I don't think I'd have been able to swing the payments if I didn't have the ED savings through in and would have ended up with a 328. Local dealers weren't really willing to deal on a US delivery car. One even tried to charge me US MSRP for the ED car and I quickly walked away. I looked back at my current 435 deal from 3 years ago and ended up saving about $6k which also made it clearly worth it as my ED trip couldn't have cost much more than $2500.

Deals on the exciting cars are apparently less than the boring ones these days as you mentioned. I love traveling and the ED experience is amazing so even if it's close to a wash on price I guess I don't mind doing it and getting a 'free' trip out of it.


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## Ucla95 (Jul 23, 2004)

Asteroid said:


> Let's not forget that some of the prolific posters of the past seldom post now.


+1000
Very few of us left from the roadfly days...


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## Ucla95 (Jul 23, 2004)

roup1 said:


> a bigger factor is the heavy discounting and incentives on new models for us delivery.


+1


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

MasterYoda said:


> These are our 8th BMWs and 3rd ED and I am so pissed right now it could be our last.
> 
> ...
> 
> I requested PCD pickup with free M school for my wife and I as consolation but was denied. I guess they don't care that much about brand loyalty after all.


I am so sorry to hear that. I am completely with you. Already doing any ED with any BMW is building expectations disproportionately, but showing you your ///M car and pulling away the keys? That sucks beyond normal.

Yes, you are very, VERY lucky your wife is getting another car which is fun - way more fun than 5 series GT you might be getting as a consolation.

All that said, try to not ruin the trip by building the steam just to blow it off at Welt. It can still be a very nice experience, just convince yourself of that, then enjoy the plate best consumed cold when you get back 



Gary J said:


> huh? What's up with ED of a M?


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=922581


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Well that is indeed very unfortunate but file it under stuff happens not "getting screwed". I would not expect a potentially unsafe car to be allowed for delivery. It happened at the worst time but it is not as if there is a good time.


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

Gary J said:


> Well that is indeed very unfortunate but file it under stuff happens not "getting screwed". I would not expect a potentially unsafe car to be allowed for delivery. It happened at the worst time but it is not as if there is a good time.


I'm with Gary here - they aren't denying your delivery because they are mean people. Sounds like a safety issue. Are you saying that you _want_ them to give you an unsound car to drive at 150 mph?

Crap happens. Roll with the punches.


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## BickUW89 (Apr 18, 2008)

AggieKnight said:


> I'm with Gary here - they aren't denying your delivery because they are mean people. Sounds like a safety issue. Are you saying that you _want_ them to give you an unsound car to drive at 150 mph?
> 
> Crap happens. Roll with the punches.


"Unacceptable?" Sheesh, seriously. First world problems, dude.

Not like it's your first ED, or your once-in-a-lifetime trip. What do you expect them to do? Have a little perspective.

I just returned from my ///M4 delivery, and thankfully my car isn't caught up in this deal, but honestly if they told me I couldn't drive it away until something as serious as that were fixed, I'd be disappointed but just get on with the trip.

Honestly.


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## turpiwa (Jun 13, 2005)

MasterYoda said:


> I'll tell you guys that this mess with the stop delivery on the M cars isn't going to help matters regarding ED posts and ED in general. There are many people who are getting screwed (me included) out of ED and PCD pickup right now. These are our 8th BMWs and 3rd ED and I am so pissed right now it could be our last.
> 
> When we get to Munich this Tuesday I will be able to view my car (M4) but won't be able to drive out with it. That's the whole point correct? They are going to waive one payment (big woop) and give us a loaner which I'm sure will be a Luxobarge that I won't accept.
> 
> ...


It certainly sucks to not be able to take the M on the ring but why don't you take the 340 instead. Sure it won't be as quick but it is still a very capable car. I took my 335 M Sport on the ring in my '09 ED and it was a blast. They get up and boogie!


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

BickUW89 said:


> "Unacceptable?" Sheesh, seriously. First world problems, dude.
> 
> Not like it's your first ED, or your once-in-a-lifetime trip. What do you expect them to do? Have a little perspective.
> 
> ...


It's easy for you to say. Your trip went off without a hitch. Mine not so much. It was a big deal for the wife and I to take delivery the same day as we had many plans with both cars.

We are of course going to get on with the trip but it still leaves a bad taste.

I think I'm more disappointed in what they are offering as a "consolation". If they had approved the M driving school at the PCD I would have felt better about the whole situation.

It is a once in a lifetime trip FYI. I took 3 weeks off from work and have been planing this for quite some time. Never will I be able to take that amount of time again.


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## BickUW89 (Apr 18, 2008)

MasterYoda said:


> It's easy for you to say. Your trip went off without a hitch. Mine not so much. It was a big deal for the wife and I to take delivery the same day as we had many plans with both cars.
> 
> We are of course going to get on with the trip but it still leaves a bad taste.
> 
> ...


Well, it does suck, and I don't want to trash on you. But my trip didn't go without a hitch either. We were in Nice when some selfish a$$hole decided to kill 84 innocent people and injure dozens others. Besides our own brush with those events, it cast a pall on the next 4 days in Nice. **** happens. I'm just not sure what you think the remedy is? Pull some other guy's ///M4 off the assembly line? It's EOP. Not a lot of M cars just sitting around.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Someday yours will be a memorable ED; right now not so much. I get it, after > 16 ED's I've had my share of SNAFU's. What seemed the worst is now one of my favorites:

***8226; ED of M5 in late October 2001 - 6 weeks after 9/11. Security is over the top *everywhere*
***8226; Car catches fire 2 hours after delivery just outside the main gate of US Army base Garmisch - about 4 pm Friday
***8226; My 15 year old son attempts to put out fire with Gatorade
***8226; US Army begins evacuation and lockdown
***8226; Son runs for help to extinguish the fire
***8226; I'm detained by German Polizei and US army investigators. Everyone has a gun but me
***8226; Area cordoned off while investigation continues
***8226; Son, unable to return to the car due to military and police barricades, stumbles upon our intended hotel and parks himself at the lobby bar and orders his first (?) beer
***8226; Son discovers buxom dirndl attired blonde barmaid is charmed by SoCal kid
***8226; BMW AG dispatches engineers to G-P to investigate what happened - on a Friday night. AG engineers set land speed record MUC > GP in 3er wagon
***8226; Evening spent with son, barmaid and 2 BMW engineers  

You get the idea. I thought our special 2 week vacation was ruined, but as I think back I wouldn't have traded the experience for anything - we had a very different vacation than planned but it was great. Maybe Boothguy will chime in with his story.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

^^ I think I saw that in a movie once.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Gary J said:


> ^^ I think I saw that in a movie once.


I left out the part about a random suitcase in the street (not ours) that was suspected to be a bomb ... and a first hand demonstration of a robot bomb sniffing gizmo that looked like R2D2's cousin.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Reminds me of our first trip to Paris many years ago. Standing in the middle of the airport looking for the way out to the bus we left with our camera bag sitting right there on the floor in the middle of the terminal with people brushing by every which way. You know, the one with pics of Lady Di and stuff we just took in London. We made our way back to the terminal in about 20 minutes and there it was sitting right there in the middle of the floor with people just walking all around it.


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## BickUW89 (Apr 18, 2008)

dkreidel said:


> Someday yours will be a memorable ED; right now not so much. I get it, after > 16 ED's I've had my share of SNAFU's. What seemed the worst is now one of my favorites:
> 
> • ED of M5 in late October 2001 - 6 weeks after 9/11. Security is over the top *everywhere*
> • ...
> ...


That is friggin' epic! I'm sure it sucked at the time, but what a fantastic story now!!


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

turpiwa said:


> It certainly sucks to not be able to take the M on the ring but why don't you take the 340 instead. Sure it won't be as quick but it is still a very capable car. I took my 335 M Sport on the ring in my '09 ED and it was a blast. They get up and boogie!


Ya. We plan on bringing the 340 there for sure. It was supposed to be the 340 and M4 together. It is what it is


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

BickUW89 said:


> Well, it does suck, and I don't want to trash on you. But my trip didn't go without a hitch either. We were in Nice when some selfish a$$hole decided to kill 84 innocent people and injure dozens others. Besides our own brush with those events, it cast a pall on the next 4 days in Nice. **** happens. I'm just not sure what you think the remedy is? Pull some other guy's ///M4 off the assembly line? It's EOP. Not a lot of M cars just sitting around.


That does suck big time. We were right there last year on my dad's ED. It's life I get it doesn't mean I need or should be happy about it. BMW also could do more for us affected customers IMO.


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## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

I am happy for you (the OP) for getting to at least see your car with its "special paint" as I recall, unless I am mixing up with another EDer in the same position.


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## MasterYoda (Apr 4, 2013)

1northcar said:


> I am happy for you (the OP) for getting to at least see your car with its "special paint" as I recall, unless I am mixing up with another EDer in the same position.


I think you are mixing us up. There are a bunch of people in this situation currently and the list is growing. Sounds like I'll be doing a European presentation for my M4 this Tuesday instead of delivery.


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## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

When I heard about the shootings in Munich just down the street from the Welt, first thing I thought about was you. Glad to see you missed today's day of terror with the Welt likely being on lockdown along with all the public transportation shut down. Apparently the 3 gunmen fled into the UBahn line that is right there at the Welt. Hopefully by Tuesday life will have returned to a measured degree of normalcy for you when your ED is scheduled.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

More like 1 1/2 miles on Google Maps.


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