# How to negotiate the price of your ED BMW



## BillKach (Sep 22, 2003)

williamsfam said:


> Has anyone successfully gotten any discount off ED MSRP on an M4? I've been having a difficult time negotiating on the M4 - being told they won't discount M4 at all... Has anyone had better success?


Tried extensively on an M4 vert several months ago. Had no luck at all so I went with a 650. A lot more car for only about $10K more...
I'd expect it to be at least another 6 months before you can get a significant discount off MSRP.


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## FlyingLow78 (Jul 28, 2011)

williamsfam said:


> Has anyone successfully gotten any discount off ED MSRP on an M4? I've been having a difficult time negotiating on the M4 - being told they won't discount M4 at all... Has anyone had better success?


I had no issues finding several dealers on the east coast willing to deal on an M3 back in August. I ended up getting my deal for about $2000 over ED invoice. I can't imagine M4s being produced in numbers so much fewer than M3s that dealers would be unwilling to negotiate.

Have you tried dealers far outside your market? The west coast seemed to be the most unwilling to budge, whereas the east coast was interested in actually selling cars.


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## williamsfam (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback. FlyingLow78 - can I ask who you ended up ordering with? Perhaps I could give him/her a shot before I order at ED MSRP which is all I have been able to find thus far. Thx!


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## FlyingLow78 (Jul 28, 2011)

I ordered through the dealership in Fayetteville, NC, but the salesman's performance was sub-par and a lot of my questions went unanswered. This site has been a lifesaver!

You may want to approach Adrian Avila ([email protected]) at BMW of South Atlanta. Lots of people buy through him. The dealers in Vero Beach FL and Bel Air MD offered $1000 off ED MSRP (though I bet you can do better). The last dealership I contacted in Charleston, SC was pretty competitive on price with the Fayetteville dealer, but a bit farther away. This is a great time of year to buy!


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## williamsfam (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks for the tips. I will try one of these dealers and see if I can do better than what I am finding on the West Coast. I just can't believe that I can't get below ED MSRP, even by $2-4k, with the dealers I've spoken to here. There must be a way!


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## jrubens (Aug 14, 2002)

Wine-O said:


> Yup, that will pretty much get you right into the ballpark. Whatever figure you come up with, just add anywhere between $500-$1000 for dealer profit.
> 
> Do your own calculations then contact a board sponsor or two and compare. You'll be surprised what a deal you can get.


Thanks! I've reached out to a sponsor for information. I have no idea if my local dealer will do a deal, and the salesman in Baton Rouge who really pushed for the deal when I did Euro Delivery ten years ago has retired. I want to make sure that I get my figures straight before moving forward and if I can't do a deal with either of them, I'll move on to a sponsor.


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## jrubens (Aug 14, 2002)

I'd like to give a big "shout out" to Adrian at BMW of South Atlanta. He responded quickly to my email, verified my figures and offered to do the deal I wanted immediately. When I told him that I was talking with my local dealer (the loaner car during repairs is something to consider), he was also very cool being a back up and provided me with additional information. If you're in the Atlanta/SE US area, I highly recommend him!


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

jrubens said:


> I'd like to give a big "shout out" to Adrian at BMW of South Atlanta. He responded quickly to my email, verified my figures and offered to do the deal I wanted immediately. When I told him that I was talking with my local dealer (the loaner car during repairs is something to consider), he was also very cool being a back up and provided me with additional information. If you're in the Atlanta/SE US area, I highly recommend him!


Are you saying your local dealer doesn't provide loaners unless you buy from them ? What about the folks who move into your area and later need service...they don't get loaners ? Sounds like a bad business practice to me...:dunno:
My local dealer gives loaners to anybody. They are limited in number and it's best to reserve beforehand, but that makes sense. It doesn't make business sense to have an excessive number of loaner cars in the fleet.


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## jrubens (Aug 14, 2002)

The Other Tom said:


> Are you saying your local dealer doesn't provide loaners unless you buy from them ? What about the folks who move into your area and later need service...they don't get loaners ? Sounds like a bad business practice to me...:dunno:
> My local dealer gives loaners to anybody. They are limited in number and it's best to reserve beforehand, but that makes sense. It doesn't make business sense to have an excessive number of loaner cars in the fleet.


Yep.


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## The Sage (Nov 27, 2014)

Thanks for all the great tips on negotiating price on a ED. I just placed order today for a 228i for May delivery. Following the advice here, I ended up with a great deal with ED invoice price +$500 dealer profit. I did the whole transaction by email in less than 24 hours. This forum rocks!


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## Kel (Mar 29, 2003)

Any specific current person / dealer suggestions for very low mark up above ED invoice?


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## Dallas550 (Jan 16, 2011)

Kel said:


> Any specific current person / dealer suggestions for very low mark up above ED invoice?


In Texas you can get $1000 or $1500 over euro invoice. For $750, you would need to go out of state. PM me if you want a dealer contact here.


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## twssas (Nov 4, 2006)

*ED Invoice calculation*

Here is my build for a 535. MSRP 73175. I calculated the following:

Base x .92 x.93 = Euro Invoice
Options x.91 = Invoice
Transportation = 950

Total European Invoice = $63,649.

My question, have I calculated this correctly?

My plan is go to my local dealer, give them a shot at it, before heading to one of the sponsors, but need to be sure I have understood these numbers correctly.

3.0 liter BMW TwinPower Turbo inline 6-cylinder
Rear-wheel drive
See all standard features 
BASE MSRP
$55,600
M Sport$3,150
Dark Graphite Metallic$550
Black Nappa Leather$0
Dark wood trim$0
Cold Weather Package$950
Driver Assistance Plus$1,900
• Driver Assistance Package$1,800
Dynamic Handling Package$3,500
Luxury Seating Package$2,400
Premium Package$1,500
Harman Kardon surround sound system$875
Destination & Handling:$950
BMW Ultimate Service®
A suite of premium benefits that are included at no cost with all new BMW Vehicles.
Up to 4 Years/50,000 Miles WarrantyIncluded
Up to 4 Years/50,000 Miles Maintenance ProgramIncluded
Up to 4 Years/Unlimited Mileage Roadside AssistanceIncluded
Total MSRP as Built $73,175


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## The Sage (Nov 27, 2014)

twssas said:


> Here is my build for a 535. MSRP 73175. I calculated the following:
> 
> Base x .92 x.93 = Euro Invoice
> Options x.91 = Invoice
> ...


That's the exact same calculation I used on my ED 228i deal. My estimate came within $50 of the dealer quote (due to my rounding errors). Good luck on closing your deal.


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## twssas (Nov 4, 2006)

Thanks. I hope to shoot for $1000-$1500 above invoice, and do a redelivery at the Performance Center.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

twssas said:


> Thanks. I hope to shoot for $1000-$1500 above invoice, and do a redelivery at the Performance Center.


I would shoot for $750. If you are doing PCD, you could use any board sponsor.


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

Hi all, any suggestions on dealer profit over ED invoice I should be looking for on an M4?


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

frank325 said:


> Hi all, any suggestions on dealer profit over ED invoice I should be looking for on an M4?


If it comes out of dealer allocation, that changes everything. You need to put on your negotiation shoes.


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

Wine-O said:


> If it comes out of dealer allocation, that changes everything. You need to put on your negotiation shoes.


Right, that's why i'm looking for some suggestions.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

It's all here =

http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php/ED_Order


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## Amir A (Mar 24, 2015)

*ED Question.*

I am new here and very interested in getting me a BMW (one that goes fast).
In regards to negotiating the price of a BMW, can I start from the bottom price of ED-price without actually going to Europe for the pick-up?


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

Amir A said:


> I am new here and very interested in getting me a BMW (one that goes fast).
> In regards to negotiating the price of a BMW, can I start from the bottom price of ED-price without actually going to Europe for the pick-up?


No, you absolutely MUST show up in person in Munich to take delivery of the car. There are absolutely no exceptions. You don't technically even have to drive it (you can pay them extra for the 'privilege' of not driving it yourself to a dropoff location). But if you can't get yourself to the BMW Welt in Munich, forget about ED pricing.


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## Patrician Principessa (Apr 13, 2015)

*BMW ED - question re: individual driver insurance coverage*

Hi Alex,

I enjoyed your post and article.
Can more than one person be covered by insurance, hence more than one driver while driving a BMW ED while in Europe?
Where did you get your BMW's in the US for the ED program?
Would you recommend them?

I am interested in considering the program again.

Thank you!
Heidi


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

HeidiKaufmann said:


> Can more than one person be covered by insurance, hence more than one driver while driving a BMW ED while in Europe?


Yes, provided they are 18 years old and have a valid driver's license. Just remember to name them when you get to the Welt to sign the paperwork. They must be named as a driver in order to be covered, so just name everyone in your party who is a licensed driver just to be on the safe side.

The free insurance coverage is for 14 days exactly, including the day you pick up the car as Day 1 and the day you drop off the car as Day 14. You can purchase additional insurance up to five months worth if you want. It cost $389 for 30 days of coverage instead of just 14. The day you pick up the car would be Day 1 and the car must be dropped off no later than Day 30. If the car is financed or leased through BMWFS, it must be turned over no later than Day 90. You can go as long as 5 months if you paid cash for the car. If you go longer than 60 days, you will have to return to Germany to drop off the car.

Good luck!


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

HeidiKaufmann said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> I enjoyed your post and article.
> Can more than one person be covered by insurance, hence more than one driver while driving a BMW ED while in Europe?
> ...


Regarding the dealer to use, go with a board sponsor near you. Since you didn't mention where you are, it's difficult to recommend a dealer.

Also, you can buy from any dealer and pick up your car at the Performance Center in South Carolina. This is called Performance Center Delivery, or PCD. You'll get a lot of dealer recommendations if you chose to go this route.


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## Tmyz (Apr 22, 2015)

How much do you typically save on a ED?


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Tmyz said:


> How much do you typically save on a ED?


7% off base price (before package, options, accessories, etc) see bmwusa.com


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Tmyz said:


> How much do you typically save on a ED?


You start out with a lower MSRP for a European Delivery car than for an identical car that is not ED. The discount is 7% off the base MSRP before lines and options, as already stated. However, you still negotiate a lower selling price below that ED MSRP just as you would any car deal. Also, ED cars do not get charged MACO & training fees, so that could represent another $480 of savings.

If the ED car you are ordering does not come out of the dealer's allocation, you can probably negotiate a really good deal. However, if it's one of the M cars, or a brand new generation (like when the 4-series came out) model, then don't expect too much, depending on that dealer's availability. That's because M cars and brand new generation models do come out of allocation.


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## Tmyz (Apr 22, 2015)

Thanks for the answer. As an example if I wanted a 2016 650 I with an approx sticker in the U.S. Of 104, then what would be a reasonable expectation on an ED?

I have read the threads and seen percentages but they still seem vague 

I apologize if this seems redundant or elementary but I just got my 2013 650 and am already dreaming of a new one.


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## marcpotash (Apr 6, 2003)

E. D. discount only applies to base price. Options are the same price as U. S. bought cars.


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

Tmyz said:


> Thanks for the answer. As an example if I wanted a 2016 650 I with an approx sticker in the U.S. Of 104, then what would be a reasonable expectation on an ED?


You should easily be able to ED that car for $93K.


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

marcpotash said:


> E. D. discount only applies to base price. Options are the same price as U. S. bought cars.


Yes, but to clarify, you'd use the invoice price for those options as your starting point.


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## Tmyz (Apr 22, 2015)

Thanks. Goal setting now


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## Tmyz (Apr 22, 2015)

By the way I typod the year of my 6. It's s 2012 not a 13. Absolutely in love with it


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## 640GC (Mar 22, 2012)

640GC said:


> Wow, so our original GC purchase in Sept of 2012 had a residual of 65% as we had 15k with 62% residual. So now it would be 55% residual. That's quite a large difference. They did reduce the cost of the vehicle by around $5k though through introducing the M Sport Package. When we purchased, we had to buy all of the options piece by piece.


So the dealer is quoting 62% if I wish to purchase the car after our three year lease this September. That doesn't seem to be very good if the current residual is 55%. Any ideas?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

640GC said:


> So the dealer is quoting 62% if I wish to purchase the car after our three year lease this September. That doesn't seem to be very good if the current residual is 55%. Any ideas?


The residual value is shown on your lease contract. That is the guaranteed price that you can purchase the car for at the end of the lease. However, if that price is above fair market value, BMWFS will usually quote the dealer a reduced price because they don't want the car back if it's not worth the residual. Running it through the auction, or trying to get a dealer to bid on it, would cost them money.

So that's something most dealers negotiate with BMWFS at the end of the lease. Then they quote you a better selling price. Obviously they have to safety check the car before they can sell it to you and you might even want them to include a CPO warranty.

Usually if you aren't happy with what your dealer offers you, you check with other nearby dealers. Unfortunately, there is only one BMW dealership within a 100-mile radius of Lubbock, Texas, if that's where you live. I don't know what to tell you if that dealer refuses to move off the stated residual on the lease. In any case, wait until you get within 30 days of the end of the lease to see if BMWFS makes you an offer or if the dealer makes you an offer.

Just tell the dealer that you would consider purchasing the car but not at the residual value shown on the lease because you believe that current fair market value is well below that. See what he says? Right now is too soon to start asking about that. You have to wait until you're much closer to the end of the lease.

Good luck!


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## 640GC (Mar 22, 2012)

Thanks for the explanation. I'll just hold tight till then.


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## richardfl (Aug 18, 2015)

Here is a real world example for ED pricing that I just went through. Let me start by saying that the US MSRP on a 228i Coupe is 32,850. So we will start there.

32,850 * .92 = 30,222 (Multiply by .92 or 8%)
30,222 * .93 = 28,106 (Multiply by .93 or 7%)

ED Base = 28,106

+ Mineral White 500 ($550 * .91)
+ Driver assist Pkg 865 ($950 * .91)
+ M Sport Pkg 2,275 ($2500 * .91)
+ Premium Pkg 2,685 ($2950 * .91)
+ Heated Seats 455 ($500 * .91)
+ Deliver 995 (Non-negotiable)
+ Dealer Profit 600 (My specific dealer's profit)

= $36,481 Final ED Price (Before Tax/Tag/Yada/Yada)

If I priced this car out on the BMW online builder it would of been MSRP of $41,295 

$41,295 MSRP with options
$36,481 ED Pricing with options
--
4,814 Difference/Savings

That's a hell-o-va deal ! :thumbup:


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## tachi1247 (May 9, 2013)

richardfl said:


> Here is a real world example for ED pricing that I just went through. Let me start by saying that the US Invoice on a 228i Coupe is 32,850. So we will start there.


To avoid confusing others, I think you mean US *MSRP* is 32,850 not invoice.....


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## richardfl (Aug 18, 2015)

tachi1247 said:


> To avoid confusing others, I think you mean US *MSRP* is 32,850 not invoice.....


Yes, you are correct. I edited my post. Thanks-


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## 640GC (Mar 22, 2012)

richardfl said:


> Here is a real world example for ED pricing that I just went through. Let me start by saying that the US MSRP on a 228i Coupe is 32,850. So we will start there.
> 
> 32,850 * .92 = 30,222 (Multiply by .92 or 8%)
> 30,222 * .93 = 28,106 (Multiply by .93 or 7%)
> ...


Wouldn't you take 7% off first for ED price then the 8% for dealer margin? Is the dealer getting margin from US price or the ED price?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

640GC said:


> Wouldn't you take 7% off first for ED price then the 8% for dealer margin? Is the dealer getting margin from US price or the ED price?


You are correct that the ED base MSRP is 93% of the US base MSRP; however, you will arrive at the exact same ED base invoice price ($28,106) either way. Multiply by 93% first and then 92% or multiply by 92% first and then 93%. Works out the same.


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## toyparrots (Sep 21, 2015)

Yobyot said:


> About a year ago, I wrote an article for _Boston Bimmer_ describing how to negotiate the price of an ED car.
> 
> Here's a link to the article: http://bit.ly/BostonBimmerED.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for this article. We are newbies to this process. Where can I find the four prices US MSRP US Invoice ED MSRP and ED Invoice we are about to embark on our first BMW with ED delivery. The dealer tried to tell us the best price is 7% off US MSRP for the car. I know this is not true so I need some backup knowledge. We are looking forward to ordering our car for a May 2016 delivery in Munich . When is the best time to lock in the order. We plan on taking 30 days to explore Europe once we pick up the car. Would appreciate any knowledge you car to share. Thanks


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## CalvinH (Apr 5, 2003)

For production after Jan 1, use the following: ED MSRP = US MSRP * 0.95 (for base vehicle). Multiply ED MSRP by 0.93 to get ED invoice price. Add up the list price for all options and multiply by 0.91 to get invoice price for those. Add those two invoice prices and $995 for destination and the total will be the ED invoice price for your configuration. Ok?

Oh, pricing guides for the various models are stickies here on the forum.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

toyparrots said:


> Thanks so much for this article. We are newbies to this process. Where can I find the four prices US MSRP US Invoice ED MSRP and ED Invoice we are about to embark on our first BMW with ED delivery. The dealer tried to tell us the best price is 7% off US MSRP for the car. I know this is not true so I need some backup knowledge. We are looking forward to ordering our car for a May 2016 delivery in Munich . When is the best time to lock in the order. We plan on taking 30 days to explore Europe once we pick up the car. Would appreciate any knowledge you car to share. Thanks


All you really need is US MSRP prices and you can find those on this forum. 

The dealer you talked to in Florida may have been telling you the truth _as it applies to his dealership_. Some dealers are less willing to negotiate on European Delivery cars than others. That's when you check with another dealer. Most Mercedes-Benz dealers will tell you 7% off US MSRP and that's all. Some BMW dealers do the same thing.

Here's an idea. If you choose to take re-delivery at the BMW Performance Center in Spartanburg, SC (it's FREE), you can order your car from any BMW dealer in the US. Some of the Bimmerfest sponsor dealers are VERY competitive on prices for European Delivery cars. One other thing to consider. Dealers in California charge only $80 for their "doc fee." Dealers in Florida usually charge as much as $699 for their "doc fee." :yikes:

Note: The BMW European Delivery discount will change from 7% to 5% effective with all cars produced after Jan. 1, 2016.

To calculate ED invoice do this: Take the base US MSRP for that model and multiply that by 95%. That gives you the base ED MSRP for that model. Multiply that by 92% to get base ED invoice. Take the total US MSRP of all the options and multiply that by 91% to get ED invoice on the options. Add base invoice to options invoice to get a total. Now add $995 destination and handling. That will be your total ED invoice price, +/- a few dollars.

Be aware that a _good deal_ can vary greatly from one dealer to another, especially from one region to another. Do not expect a big discount on M cars, if that's what you're considering, because they come out of dealer allocation (it's complicated). If it's a regular car and not an M car (e.g. not an M3), then the price you will get quoted over factory ED invoice will vary from maybe $1,000-$1,500 over invoice for most cars. However, you may not get that price from most dealers in your local area.

You can also find BMW US MSRP and US invoice prices on several websites, such as cars.com


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## tebase31 (Oct 15, 2015)

Brand new to the community so please excuse my noobiness. 

I contacted a sponsor for a 2016 428i GC and he had one in his inventory and quoted me fairly reasonable selling price. This unfortunately would require an out-of-state delivery so I was wondering if I should do a ED for a similarly configured vehicle. Therefore, here's my main question: what other fees would I be saving on if I were to purchase a vehicle from inventory versus an ED vehicle?

From what I've calculated myself using the ED formulas in this thread, the selling price the sponsor offered me is just about $800 over what an approximate ED price would be (including a $600 dealer profit). While $800 isn't nothing, the cost of trekking out to Germany would eat up most if not all of that difference. Therefore, that's why I'm wondering what other fees would ED avoid that would still apply to a regular purchase? Thanks guys!


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## tebase31 (Oct 15, 2015)

Brand new to the community so please excuse my noobiness. 

I contacted a sponsor for a 2016 428i GC and he had one in his inventory and quoted me fairly reasonable selling price. This unfortunately would require an out-of-state delivery so I was wondering if I should do a ED for a similarly configured vehicle. Therefore, here's my main question: what other fees would I be saving on if I were to purchase a vehicle from inventory versus an ED vehicle?

From what I've calculated myself using the ED formulas in this thread, the selling price the sponsor offered me is just about $800 over what an approximate ED price would be (including a $600 dealer profit). While $800 isn't nothing, the cost of trekking out to Germany would eat up most if not all of that difference. Therefore, that's why I'm wondering what other fees would ED avoid that would still apply to a regular purchase? Thanks guys!


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

tebase31 said:


> Brand new to the community so please excuse my noobiness.
> 
> I contacted a sponsor for a 2016 428i GC and he had one in his inventory and quoted me fairly reasonable selling price. This unfortunately would require an out-of-state delivery so I was wondering if I should do a ED for a similarly configured vehicle. Therefore, here's my main question: what other fees would I be saving on if I were to purchase a vehicle from inventory versus an ED vehicle?
> 
> From what I've calculated myself using the ED formulas in this thread, the selling price the sponsor offered me is just about $800 over what an approximate ED price would be (including a $600 dealer profit). While $800 isn't nothing, the cost of trekking out to Germany would eat up most if not all of that difference. Therefore, that's why I'm wondering what other fees would ED avoid that would still apply to a regular purchase? Thanks guys!


I am a bit confused at your question - are you doing an ED or are you buying off a dealer's lot ?

Big difference.
Give us prices - MSRP, dealer quoted, etc..

In the years I have been with BMW:
The dealer at the lot has lots of pricing options - US MSRP all the way to below US invoice - they have other "trunk monies" and can go "below US invoice" price if they choose to - especially for a 2015 MY.

If on the other hand you are going to Germany to have a custom made car to pick up, you would save about 10-13% off US MSRP which in my case would amount to about $5,000 off which pays for the airline tickets, hotel, gas, etc... and gets me the vacation I wanted to go anyway but with a car that is mine - not a rental. 

And when I come back, I don't pay the 2nd month payment (lease) and get a second delivery at the dealer - that's worth it!


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## CalvinH (Apr 5, 2003)

Not sure if you are calculating correctly. From the info here, ED invoice is currently 7% less than US invoice for the same car. The options invoice prices are 91% of MSRP regardless of where you pick up. So the ED invoice price on 428i GC should be at least $3000 less than the same car purchased here. You might have more bargaining power with the ED (i.e. lower markup over invoice) as an ED other than M models wouldn't come out of the dealer's allocation. On the plus side you would get the ED experience and might be able to do it for less than the amount you save. On the minus side, you drop off the car after really enjoying it and have to wait 6-10 weeks to get it back. Btw ED shipping to the US is the same $995 as shown on local deliveries.


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

My dealer gives me a 12% discount (7% + 5%) off MSRP for an ED - he says he is making about $1000 for an ED sale.


And don't forget: In 2016, the ED difference between MSRP and invoice is dropping down to 5%.....


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tebase31 said:


> I contacted a sponsor for a 2016 428i GC and he had one in his inventory and quoted me fairly reasonable selling price. This unfortunately would require an out-of-state delivery...


You're in the Dallas area, right? How far out of state would you be going to pick up your new car? How many miles one way?

If you do European Delivery through that same out-of-state sponsor, you can take delivery at either that same dealership or at the BMW Performance Center in Spartanburg, SC, which would be an excellent choice. 



> so I was wondering if I should do a ED for a similarly configured vehicle. Therefore, here's my main question: what other fees would I be saving on if I were to purchase a vehicle from inventory versus an ED vehicle?


The only "fees" you would be saving, assuming your deal is based on the dealer's invoice, would be the $500 "fee" that BMW charges against the dealer's invoice for regular non-ED cars that is not charged against invoice for ED cars -- what used to be the MACO/training fees.

The biggest difference in cost would be the ED discount, which is currently 7% off the base MSRP but that changes with all cars built after Dec. 31, 2015 to 5%. In other words, approx. $3,350 dropping to approx. $2,400 after Dec. 31, 2015.

If you're leasing, the difference is going to show up in lower lease payments because the cap cost will be lower but the residual will be the same because it's based on US MSRP, not ED MSRP.



> From what I've calculated myself using the ED formulas in this thread, the selling price the sponsor offered me is just about $800 over what an approximate ED price would be (including a $600 dealer profit). While $800 isn't nothing, the cost of trekking out to Germany would eat up most if not all of that difference. Therefore, that's why I'm wondering what other fees would ED avoid that would still apply to a regular purchase? Thanks guys!


Two points: (1) I am totally lost as to why the difference would be only $800 between ED and out-of-stock? ED should be at least $2,000 to $3,000 cheaper. (2) People don't take European Delivery because they except it to be cheaper, after factoring in the cost of the trip. They take European Delivery for the experience!

Usually you take another person with you and that will definitely eat up all of the savings, assuming you're spending at least a week over there. Most people spend more than a week. You can go alone, fly out of DFW on a Friday evening and land in MUC the next morning, taking delivery that same day. Then drive the car straight back to MUC and drop it off there, hop on the next flight home and be back at work Monday morning if that's what you want to do and don't mind doing all your sleeping on the plane. If you do it that way, a European Delivery would be cheaper, even after deducting your travel expenses. However, for most people, ED is definitely not a money-saving proposition. The money they saved just pays part of their total expenses, especially after you factor in "shopping."


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tebase31 said:


> Brand new to the community so please excuse my noobiness.


If you buy the car the dealer currently has in stock, you're taking delivery now, right? If you do a European Delivery instead, when are you planning on picking up the car in Munich?

In other words, how quickly are you planning on doing this European Delivery? The BMW Welt is closed for deliveries from Dec. 23, 2015 until Feb. 8, 2016 because of renovation of the delivery areas and the Premium Lounge. You might still be able to place a ED order on a 2016 428i GC and have it ready for delivery before Dec. 23 but it would be close. Otherwise you're looking at delivery in Munich no sooner than the second week of February.

Then, after you drop off your car in Europe, it usually takes another two months before it's back in your hands over here.

To give you better advice we really need to know if this is going to be a lease or not? That's because lease deals usually get better starting around Nov. 1 every year. It's sort of a year-end push to beat Mercedes in US sales. And this year there's Lexus to contend with. In fact, Lexus may have it virtually in the bag this year.


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## tebase31 (Oct 15, 2015)

Okay looks like some numbers would help. We'll start with the Base MSRP for a 2016 428i GC.

41,650 * .92 = 38,318
38,318 * .93 = 35,635.74 (ED Base)

+ Options/Packages Total 8,235.5(9,050 * .91)
+ Delivery (995)

= $44,866.24 Final ED Price (Before TTL and Dealer Profit)

Assuming a dealer wants $800 as their dealer profit, that would bump this up to $45,666. I was quoted $46,230 as the selling price to buy off this sponsor's lot, which would only be $564 more than the ED price. That's why I wondering what other fees would be charged for a regular off-the-lot purchase but not a ED order and it sounds like from Ninong's post, it would just be the MACO/training fee.

Responses for Ninong's posts, thanks for the responses!

1) Yes in Dallas and unfortunately it doesn't look like we have any neighboring states that have sponsors. Therefore, I'll need any sponsors' vehicles trucked to Texas and this specific vehicle is currently in California. Yes, this would be added cost.

2) I understand that ED is more of a tourism program versus a money-saving tool but if I were offered deals like this that aren't much more than an ED delivery of a vehicle specified the way I want, I figured I would at least ask what other fees ED would avoid and etc.

3) As for leasing, I wasn't planning on it but since November isn't that far away, maybe I will wait on those leasing offers and have the sponsor pull what the deal looks like with those holiday offers versus me purchasing at that time.


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## kjboyd (Apr 13, 2006)

*How to negotiate the price of your ED car*

Are You sure the one on the lot is a 2016? I can't imagine any dealer seeking a brand new 2016 with that big a discount


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tebase31 said:


> Okay looks like some numbers would help. We'll start with the Base MSRP for a 2016 428i GC.
> 
> 41,650 * .92 = 38,318
> 38,318 * .93 = 35,635.74 (ED Base)
> ...


The dealer's invoice for that exact car in stock right now would be $38,820.00 base (which includes that $500 that BMW now adds) plus the options of approx. $8,236.00 + $995 dest/handling = $48,051.00. He is including the currently available $1,000.00 options credit in his price offer to you. So, if you were quoted $46,230.00 as the selling price, that means he is offering to sell you the car for $821.00 below invoice, which sounds like a VERY good deal to me. If I were you, I would take that offer in an instant. 

You would get the $1,000.00 options credit on that car in stock right now regardless of whether you paid cash, financed it or leased it. That credit is good through Nov. 2, which is a Monday. That leads me to believe that BMW is not going to announce their November specials until Nov. 3. If you were to decide to order a ED car that you intend to lease, your available options credit (if any) and your available lease money factor and residual percent would be determined by what is in effect on the date you signed the lease or whatever was in effect previously when your credit app was submitted for approval to BMWFS, whichever is better for you.

You do not actually sign the lease until the week before you depart for Germany to pick up your car. Even if you placed the order this coming Monday, you would still be entitled to either today's program or the program in effect in December when you signed the lease, assuming there is any way they can get it built that fast. They might. However, if you expect to take delivery in Munich after they reopen for European Deliveries on Feb. 8, 2016, then you should wait late December to submit your credit app. Whatever rates, etc., are in effect in December will almost certainly be better than whatever is in effect in early February when you leave for Germany.

So in comparing the in-stock deal against a ED deal, don't forget to include the available credits. Right now the available credit is $1,000. It will probably be better than that come November 3. That's just the way they usually roll. 

However, the price you were quoted on that car out of stock is incredibly good. You might want to double-check that to make sure there is no miscommunication.

Good luck! 

P.S. -- Dealers in California all add $80.00 "doc fee" to the selling price, which is extremely low compared to most states.


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## tebase31 (Oct 15, 2015)

Ninong said:


> You would get the $1,000.00 options credit on that car in stock right now regardless of whether you paid cash, financed it or leased it. That credit is good through Nov. 2, which is a Monday. That leads me to believe that BMW is not going to announce their November specials until Nov. 3. If you were to decide to order a ED car that you intend to lease, your available options credit (if any) and your available lease money factor and residual percent would be determined by what is in effect on the date you signed the lease or whatever was in effect previously when your credit app was submitted for approval to BMWFS, whichever is better for you.
> 
> You do not actually sign the lease until the week before you depart for Germany to pick up your car. Even if you placed the order this coming Monday, you would still be entitled to either today's program or the program in effect in December when you signed the lease, assuming there is any way they can get it built that fast. They might. However, if you expect to take delivery in Munich after they reopen for European Deliveries on Feb. 8, 2016, then you should wait late December to submit your credit app. Whatever rates, etc., are in effect in December will almost certainly be better than whatever is in effect in early February when you leave for Germany.
> 
> So in comparing the in-stock deal against a ED deal, don't forget to include the available credits. Right now the available credit is $1,000. It will probably be better than that come November 3. That's just the way they usually roll.


Thanks for all the info and suggestions! If I were to do ED, that timeline seems like the most ideal in terms of savings and if I wanted to avoid the winter months when doing ED, I could go pick it up in April. I would then just have to be okay with not getting the car until basically June haha.

In terms of prices of doing ED versus taking this deal, three last questions and I promise I'm done. 

1) If these monthly credits are available to ED as well, the difference in the two prices would be the $500 MACO fee + available monthly credits + whatever the original difference in the pricing is (depending on how much dealer profit the sponsor wants), right?

2) Do EDs have to be delivered to the dealer that helps me place the order? If not, that would save me the trucking fee of delivery from California to Texas. And if so, I guess I'll have to find an in-state/neighboring state dealer that will price EDs out reasonably.

3) Do monthly credits get better closer to the end of the (calendar) year? As in, December credits will be better than Nov?

Thanks again all!


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## Doodah Fester (Sep 18, 2015)

tebase31 said:


> 1) If these monthly credits are available to ED as well, the difference in the two prices would be the $500 MACO fee + available monthly credits + whatever the original difference in the pricing is (depending on how much dealer profit the sponsor wants), right?


I think your concentrating too hard on this issue. The MACO fee is already worked into the quote you received. Other things such as doc and destination will be the same. And you know how much the ED would cost.



> 2) Do EDs have to be delivered to the dealer that helps me place the order? If not, that would save me the trucking fee of delivery from California to Texas. And if so, I guess I'll have to find an in-state/neighboring state dealer that will price EDs out reasonably.


ED redelivery is to the dealer or you could opt for PCD at Spartenburg, SC. Google says that's 13-14 hours from Dallas and $250 for a ticket. Also, you could get the same deal for ED from one of your local dealers. Have you checked them out?

If your thinking of April delivery, you need to change your calculations for .95 vs .93. That will make a difference as well. I think the question you need to ask is three weeks vs next april.


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## tebase31 (Oct 15, 2015)

Doodah Fester said:


> ED redelivery is to the dealer or you could opt for PCD at Spartenburg, SC. Google says that's 13-14 hours from Dallas and $250 for a ticket. Also, you could get the same deal for ED from one of your local dealers. Have you checked them out?
> 
> If your thinking of April delivery, you need to change your calculations for .95 vs .93. That will make a difference as well. I think the question you need to ask is three weeks vs next april.


Thanks Doodah. So for PCD, I'll have to drive the car back myself, correct (or truck it)?

Also, if I put in an order in soon, could production still be done before the end of the year where I could still get the 7% discount as opposed to the 5%? From other fester posts, it seems like production start/end isn't more than two weeks? Could be wrong...


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

tebase31 said:


> Thanks Doodah. So for PCD, I'll have to drive the car back myself, correct (or truck it)?


If you do Performance Center delivery -- a great idea -- then you have to get yourself to Spartanburg, SC, usually the afternoon/evening before delivery. BMW provides a free room for two + dinner & breakfast and then drives you to the PC the morning of the delivery. You arrive there at 8 am and the day's activities end around 3 pm. Great experience!

After that, most people drive their cars back home even if that's 960 miles. The point is you have to take delivery there in person. You could always arrange to have it trucked back to Dallas but that would be on you and might cost several hundred bucks and it would be something you would have to arrange. So, in reality, you pick it up in person and drive it back home.

Or you can pick it up at the dealership that placed the order. It's possible for them to arrange a courtesy delivery through one of your local dealers but that requires that one of them agree to do that and that may not be possible. They aren't required to do it and nobody can tell them how much to charge. If they realize you ordered from a dealer in California even though you live in North Texas, they might agree to make the courtesy delivery but then charge $1,000 for the service. So that's usually out of the question.



> Also, if I put in an order in soon, could production still be done before the end of the year where I could still get the 7% discount as opposed to the 5%? From other fester posts, it seems like production start/end isn't more than two weeks? Could be wrong...


No, that's not how it works. BMW will build your car so that it is completed between 3 days to 3 weeks before your delivery date. Usually they're completed around 10-20 days before delivery.

Even if you were to order a car for delivery in February after they reopen for deliveries on Feb. 8th, your car would be built after the factories reopen on Monday, Jan. 4, 2016. You are required to pick up the car usually within a month after it is finished; however, they will take care of that by not finishing it ahead of time. Its production schedule is based on the delivery date, not the date when you place the order.

You are going to have to start all over with your calculations if you are planning a ED next spring. There is no way to predict this far ahead of time what BMWFS might be offering at that time. All we know is that the 7% ED discount changes to 5% with all cars produced after Dec. 31, 2015.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

You can do European Delivery and Performance Center Delivery on the same car or you can do either one without the other. There is no charge for either one; however, only European Delivery gets the discount off US base MSRP.


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## tebase31 (Oct 15, 2015)

Great, thanks. I think I'm clear on everything now but will keep everyone updated especially if I go with the ED route!


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

First, I want to say how grateful I am for all of the advice and experience that is shared here. I’ve lurked for a long time, but I’m ready to move on a purchase now and your insights have been really valuable so far.
Here’s the scoop: I am working to negotiate ED for an M235i xdrive coupe in early March and am communicating with several dealers using the Rizzo Method. I’m offering $800 in dealer profit.
I’m optioning the car this way; the pricing I am using to calculate my offer is in the final column:
M235i xdrive coupe $40,335.00
Estoril Blue Metallic B45	$500.00
Fineline Stream Wood Trim 4LC	$0.00
Sensatec Oyster/Black KCCX	$0.00
Heated front seats 494	$455.00
Moonroof delete ZDM	$0.00
18" double-spoke wheels with non-runflat mixed summer tires 2PG	$0.00
Increased top speed limiter 840	$0.00
Driver Assistance package ZDA	$865.00
Destination and handling $995.00
Dealer profit $800.00

Total cost (before Indiana TTL) $43,950.00

This seems to be an awkward point to do this, as nobody seems to have an official pricing sheet yet for cars produced after Jan 1st. Two of the dealers that I contacted yesterday have asked to start the process now based on agreement of the amount over invoice.
One dealer has suggested that my calculation of the base invoice price of the car is off. My calculation of the pricing is $46,150*.92 (to get to invoice from US MSRP) *.95 (to get to ED invoice). I think this calculation is consistent with the methodology used elsewhere on the forum, and yields $40,335. However, the dealer is suggesting that the 5% discount brings a total of $40,800.

So, here are my questions right now (and I may have more):

(1) Am I missing something in the calculation of ED invoice for the base automobile? Starting with the wrong numbers? Etc.?

(2) How (if at all) are orders being placed right now for ED when production dates are almost certainly after Jan. 1 and there is no official invoice pricing available?

(3) Do you consider doc fee as part of dealer profit, or something separate?

Any insights welcome. Thanks!


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

shinobiprof said:


> First, I want to say how grateful I am for all of the advice and experience that is shared here. I've lurked for a long time, but I'm ready to move on a purchase now and your insights have been really valuable so far.
> Here's the scoop: I am working to negotiate ED for an M235i xdrive coupe in early March and am communicating with several dealers using the Rizzo Method. I'm offering $800 in dealer profit.
> I'm optioning the car this way; the pricing I am using to calculate my offer is in the final column:
> M235i xdrive coupe $40,335.00
> ...


I just completed the purchase of an ED car and got there from scratch using this forum. A small note on the Rizzo method, I did start out that way, but felt some hostility in the original responses and then reverted to asking for a price over the ED invoice I calculated excluding TTL with the dealer passing on (locked in) incentives between order and final paper work.

In answer to your questions:
1) Euro Base is not exactly .93 of US MSRP, but the calculation of the invoice price should be within $100. For your car I calculated ((42,970/46,150)[EuroBase/US MSRP pre 2016] + 0.02 [2016 price increase]) * 46,150 = $43,895 Euro Base per 1/1/16 *.92 = $40,385 ED Invoice.
As for the dealer claiming otherwise, I had one dealer claiming my invoice calculation was wrong, but the two forum recommended CA's I contacted as well confirmed my calculation was spot on.

2) It is my understanding that BMW will honor the pricing at the time the vehicle is ordered, but perhaps a forum CA can weigh in on this.

3)"Doc Fee" = dealer profit. No point in fighting a CA over terminology, just include it in your pricing over invoice.

A couple more points. If you order before 1/4/16 you can lock in December's Option Credit for 60 days starting 1/4/16. So if you take delivery early March, production of your vehicle will start 1-3 weeks beforehand. You need a VIN to complete paper work, but you will be within 60 days and can use December's incentives (Holiday Adder is not lockable), or January or February's if they are better.

If you haven't approached a forum sponsor/recommended CA yet, I recommend you do. I ended up going out of state and will do a PCD stateside.


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

argh said:


> I just completed the purchase of an ED car and got there from scratch using this forum. A small note on the Rizzo method, I did start out that way, but felt some hostility in the original responses and then reverted to asking for a price over the ED invoice I calculated excluding TTL with the dealer passing on (locked in) incentives between order and final paper work.
> 
> In answer to your questions:
> 1) Euro Base is not exactly .93 of US MSRP, but the calculation of the invoice price should be within $100. For your car I calculated ((42,970/46,150)[EuroBase/US MSRP pre 2016] + 0.02 [2016 price increase]) * 46,150 = $43,895 Euro Base per 1/1/16 *.92 = $40,385 ED Invoice.
> ...


Thanks for your reply. I was reluctant to use the Rizzo Method, but resorted to it when more polite inquiries by phone and email were going unanswered for days. In any case: It appears that I am close to ED invoice by either calculation, which erodes my confidence in the dealer who suggested that I was off. (A third dealership was in the running for a few minutes today--until they refused to budge from ED MSRP and tried to sell me a heavily optioned demo car with 6000 miles on it instead.)

In the absence of a reply to this thread from a CA on the forum, would you be willing to put me in touch with the one with whom you worked in order to facilitate some clarity? If what you suspect is true about honoring prices for deals made now, I do not understand the desire of the CAs with whom I have communicated to place the order in January, especially given the timeline for getting a production date, buying plane tickets, etc. for early March delivery. (Note that one of the CAs with whom I am communicating represents one of the board sponsors and has a good reputation here, so I find this doubly puzzling.) I am also interested by your statement that December's Option Credit might be applicable to ED vehicles; I was under the impression that it was not and would like to follow up on that with a CA to get a definitive answer.


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

shinobiprof said:


> Thanks for your reply. I was reluctant to use the Rizzo Method, but resorted to it when more polite inquiries by phone and email were going unanswered for days. In any case: It appears that I am close to ED invoice by either calculation, which erodes my confidence in the dealer who suggested that I was off. (A third dealership was in the running for a few minutes today--until they refused to budge from ED MSRP and tried to sell me a heavily optioned demo car with 6000 miles on it instead.)
> 
> In the absence of a reply to this thread from a CA on the forum, would you be willing to put me in touch with the one with whom you worked in order to facilitate some clarity? If what you suspect is true about honoring prices for deals made now, I do not understand the desire of the CAs with whom I have communicated to place the order in January, especially given the timeline for getting a production date, buying plane tickets, etc. for early March delivery. (Note that one of the CAs with whom I am communicating represents one of the board sponsors and has a good reputation here, so I find this doubly puzzling.) I am also interested by your statement that December's Option Credit might be applicable to ED vehicles; I was under the impression that it was not and would like to follow up on that with a CA to get a definitive answer.


I had similar experiences with local dealers. 
My understanding that BMW price protects orders comes from this post http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/8734...-pricing-increase-effective-october-1st-2015/ and I'm fairly certain my CA told me so while I was signing the papers.
I ordered the car at the end of September, was locked in for October incentives, but used November incentives when I signed the paper work (they did require me to sign in person at the dealership). Incentives such as UDE, USAA etc cannot be combined with ED, but Option Credit and Holidayadder can.
Both board sponsors I contacted were quick to respond, straight up and very easy to communicate with. I first contacted Alex Dytko at Peabody BMW (MA) who was firm at 1K over invoice plus $298 'doc fee'. I then approached Mike Wendroff at BMW of Morristown (NJ) who asked 1K+498. After a brief round of email negotiations we settled on $1,119 (incl doc fee) over my calculated invoice, before incentives.
I have come to realize that having a very experienced ED (and PCD) CA is completely worth the extra buck. It requires quite a bit of paperwork and continued communication between CA and customer for an extended period of time. There was only one moment when management applied some pressure trying to push my sale into December (when I had indicated a preference for signing in November all along), but here and at other times Mike was the perfect buffer between management and customer. When I finally set foot in the dealership to sign the papers, I never dealt or met anyone other than Mike. Quite extraordinary in my experience. 
I am a week from ED delivery and months from the PCD, but thus far it has been a blueprint example of how pleasant and smooth a car buying experience can be.


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## visi107 (Mar 20, 2013)

argh said:


> I had similar experiences with local dealers.
> My understanding that BMW price protects orders comes from this post http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/8734.... . . [/QUOTE]
> What kind of car did you get?


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

visi107 said:


> What kind of car did you get?


340xi


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## visi107 (Mar 20, 2013)

argh said:


> 340xi


Cool, enjoy. I'm currently shopping for an M3 for ED.


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## cptcrunch (Jan 9, 2010)

Emailed the local dealer and his sales manager said I calculated the ED Invoice incorrectly. Can you verify my math?

2016 340i
45,800 * .92 - 42,136 (ED MSRP)
42,136 * .95 - 40029.2 (ED Base Invoice)

Options/Packages:
11,175 * .91 - 10,169.25

Delivery:
995

Total (ED Base Invoice + Options + Delivery)
51,193.45 + TTL

The sales manager said the actual ED Invoice is $51,783.40. Which one is correct?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

cptcrunch said:


> Emailed the local dealer and his sales manager said I calculated the ED Invoice incorrectly. Can you verify my math?
> 
> 2016 340i
> 45,800 * .92 - 42,136 (ED MSRP)
> 42,136 * .95 - 40029.2 (ED Base Invoice)


You're arriving at the correct number but your names are wrong. 45,800 * .95 = 43,510 (ED MSRP). 43,510 * .92 = 40,029.20 ED base invoice.



> Options/Packages:
> 11,175 * .91 - 10,169.25
> 
> Delivery:
> ...


The sales manager probably doesn't do many European Deliveries. Is he starting out with regular base invoice and then multiplying that by .95 to arrive at ED invoice? If so, that's wrong. He has to start with regular MSRP and multiply that by .95 to get ED base MSRP. Then multiply base ED MSRP by .92 to get base ED invoice. There are charges that BMW adds to the base invoice price of a regular car that they do not add to the base ED invoice price of a car. At least that would account for $500 of the confusion because that $500 that is added by BMW to every car's base invoice price is not added to the ED base invoice price.

Actually he shouldn't be doing it this way at all because he has access to the exact invoice prices, including invoice prices for ED. It's also possible that BMW may still be adding a training fee to the invoice price of regular cars but that part is confusing because different people have given different answers on that. In any case, there is no training fee on ED cars and they don't get charged that new $500 fee (that used to be for MACO) that BMW adds to the base invoice price of every regular car.



P.S. -- I think that's what's going on here. I think he's figuring in that $500 charge plus a training fee (assuming they still have that) and then after discounting it, plus allowing for a couple of bucks difference in rounding options, you would end up with a difference of about $590. He can always show you where he got his numbers or you can base your deal on European Delivery invoice plus x-dollars with a stipulation that he give you a copy of the ED invoice.


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## cptcrunch (Jan 9, 2010)

Ninong said:


> You're arriving at the correct number but your names are wrong. 45,800 * .95 = 43,510 (ED MSRP). 43,510 * .92 = 40,029.20 ED base invoice.
> 
> The sales manager probably doesn't do many European Deliveries. Is he starting out with regular base invoice and then multiplying that by .95 to arrive at ED invoice? If so, that's wrong. He has to start with regular MSRP and multiply that by .95 to get ED base MSRP. Then multiply base ED MSRP by .92 to get base ED invoice. There are charges that BMW adds to the base invoice price of a regular car that they do not add to the base ED invoice price of a car. At least that would account for $500 of the confusion because that $500 that is added by BMW to every car's base invoice price is not added to the ED base invoice price.
> 
> ...


I think you may be right about the $500 fee plus rounding up. I have two dealerships locally, and the first one I contacted gave me those numbers above ($51,783 vs $51,193). Both CA and SM seem like they have no idea what they are doing, taking a long time to respond to simple questions. So it seems likely they are calculating the ED invoice incorrectly. That and their offer was laughable ($1500 over their inflated invoice, plus doc fee, including incentives), but they are "willing to work on it to my satisfaction."

I contacted Adrian at BMW South Atlanta and he gave me the full ED build sheet with numbers, and he came in below me on ED Invoice by ~$790. I think he is calculating based on a 7% discount instead of the 5% I would qualify for after the new year. His invoice + offer is a little high ($1500, with fees and dealer profit, not including incentives) but he gave me the full price breakdown via email no problem and on time.

The first local dealership told me numbers over the phone and is reluctant to email them to me, which is a deal breaker for me. We'll see what the second local dealership comes up with and what Adrian's numbers are after the 1st of the year. I'm expecting my numbers to be about right, but wouldn't be sad if they are high. As much as I love bugging salesmen and making them work, sometimes you wish they would just be straight forward with their pricing. But then again, half the fun is pitting two dealerships against one another.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

cptcrunch said:


> Both CA and SM seem like they have no idea what they are doing, taking a long time to respond to simple questions. So it seems likely they are calculating the ED invoice incorrectly.


The truth is they don't have to actually calculate ED invoice. They already have that from BMWNA, just like they have the regular invoice. So they shouldn't have to go through the mechanics of multiplying anything. All they have to do is refer to ED invoice numbers. The regular invoice does have that new $500 charge built in for the base invoice price on regular cars but that $500 is not built in to the base ED invoice. As far as the previous $180 training fee, I'm not sure about that. Maybe it's still an added line item on the invoice of regular cars and maybe not. I have read two different versions of that and so far no Bimmerfest sponsor/client advisor has chimed in to explain it. Actually they're not supposed to be posting stuff about invoice prices in the first place. ED cars have never had either MACO or training fees added; that was just for regular cars.



> I contacted Adrian at BMW South Atlanta and he gave me the full ED build sheet with numbers, and he came in below me on ED Invoice by ~$790. I think he is calculating based on a 7% discount instead of the 5% I would qualify for after the new year. His invoice + offer is a little high ($1500, with fees and dealer profit, not including incentives) but he gave me the full price breakdown via email no problem and on time.


When dealing with any client advisor, whether he is a Bimmerfest sponsor or not, always be sure to get a quote on what he is adding for his "doc fee" (that can range from $75 to $599 or $699) and whether he is marking up the money factor if this is a lease. Some client advisors forget to tell you that they mark up every lease by a minimum of .0002. So compare doc fees and money factors, not just quoted selling prices. It's the total package that you have to compare, especially when shopping out-of-state dealers. Remember that every dealer charges a "doc fee." And some dealers give you the buy rate money factor and some don't. 



> The first local dealership told me numbers over the phone and is reluctant to email them to me, which is a deal breaker for me.


That's a waste of time on your part. If the dealership is one you are considering because it's convenient and a place where you might want to take your car for service, then you are going to have to work them on this deal and calling them is a total waste of time. If you think this might be the most convenient dealer for you, then wait and check them out after you have numbers from a couple of other sources. Then go down there in person and work them. I'm assuming you're better than the guy you will be dealing with? Remember that you're in charge of the deal, not someone at the dealership. They really do want to sell you a car but you have to guide them to make sure they don't mess things up. 



> As much as I love bugging salesmen and making them work, sometimes you wish they would just be straight forward with their pricing. But then again, half the fun is pitting two dealerships against one another.


You don't really have to bug anybody or make anybody work. The pricing is very straightforward, providing you're willing to pay the manufacturer's recommended retail price. What wrong with that idea?  Oh, that's right. Dealerships are free to discount that price (or even inflate it above that price) because that's the law in the US. We have laws against price-fixing. And the NADA has been very successful at making sure the franchise dealership model of auto distribution is the law in virtually every state. It's only recently that Tesla has been able to get around those laws in most states, but not all.

You should know everything there is to know as far as what the numbers should be on the car you want before you even go into the dealership. It should be a fairly easy transaction, provided you handle the client advisor properly and provided he isn't a complete idiot. If the guy you get is a moron, you can always go directly above him and ask for a different client advisor who is a little better at selling cars because this guy just isn't working out.


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## Wine-O (Feb 17, 2010)

After I negotiated my price with Adrian, I did some research on my own and found that BMW was offering a $750 tech package incentive above and beyond my deal. Do you think he would have given that discount to me without my asking? I don't think so. You really need to do your homework.


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## augkor (Dec 19, 2015)

I am trying to figure out if I have calculated correctly for a 2016 X1 based on the new 2016 5% reduction. Does this look right? If I am going to offer the dealer $500 should I shop around to other dealers outside my area? I only have one dealer in my area so I eventually need to work it out with that dealer since I want to have a good relationship with them for service. Finally, would it be best to offer $500 above ED invoice or because there is lots of paperwork and contact with the dealer, should this be higher? Thanks in advance for any advice.


Base MSRP $34800.00	
ED MSRP (Base *.95) $33060.00 
ED Invoice (ED MSRP*.92) $30415.20

(2nd pkg/option amount is *.91)
B39	Mineral Grey Metallic $550.00 $500.50
KCSW	Black Sensatec $0.00
ZCW	Cold Weather $500.00 $455.00
ZDA	Driver Assistance $1150.00 $1046.50
ZDB	Driver Assistance Plus $700.00 $637.00
5AT ACC Stop&Go Active Drive Ast	$1000.00 $910.00
ZPP	Premium Package $3250.00 $2957.50
ZMP	Sport Package $2450.00 $2229.50
ZTP	Tech Package $2550.00 $2320.50
Destination $995.00 $995.00
Dealer Profit $500
Total US MSRP $47945.00 
Total ED Purchase Price $42966.70


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## cptcrunch (Jan 9, 2010)

augkor said:


> I am trying to figure out if I have calculated correctly for a 2016 X1 based on the new 2016 5% reduction. Does this look right? If I am going to offer the dealer $500 should I shop around to other dealers outside my area? I only have one dealer in my area so I eventually need to work it out with that dealer since I want to have a good relationship with them for service. Finally, would it be best to offer $500 above ED invoice or because there is lots of paperwork and contact with the dealer, should this be higher? Thanks in advance for any advice.
> 
> Base MSRP $34800.00
> ED MSRP (Base *.95) $33060.00
> ...


Price over invoice varies wildly between dealerships, including sponsor dealerships. $500 over invoice is a dream deal, but not always realistic. Most sponsors on the forum quote $1500 over invoice with doc fee not including incentives. Your $500 over invoice might work, but the dealership might want a $500 doc fee, or include incentives to make the deal. I would say shoot for $1000 over invoice with doc fee not including incentives and say that the first dealer who offers that gets the deal. Dont stress over the extra $500, make it easy for yourself and the dealer.

Reach out to your local dealership(s) and forum sponsors and say 'here is ED invoice, what is your offer?' and see what they say. I've done this to both local dealers and a few sponsors and the offers were all over the place. One local dealership offered $1500 over invoice with incentives, a sponsor offered $1500 over invoice without incentives, and the last local dealer offered $850 over invoice without incentives.

Your calculations above look correct.

Good luck and let us know what deal you get! :thumbup:


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## natehaler (Jan 8, 2016)

*going to start this process for the new M2*

greetings all, and thanks for the very helpful info in this thread. I've just contacted BMW of Stratham, NH to inquire about European Delivery (ED, not the kind wherein two people are sitting in adjoining bathtubs afterwards).

We'll see where this goes, and I'll post updates to this forum in case it's helpful to others. Luckily, it appears that the dearth of BMW dealers in NH is nicely balanced by the variety of dealers in nearby Mass, where we in fact purchased our X3 just this summer. Probably ought to give them a call too. (Chambers of Sudbury)

Any tips, etc. from fellow New Englanders will be much appreciated. My wife has been mad/heartsick ever since we sold her 1M before moving out here from the left coast. So I'm going to try to get back in her good graces...


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

natehaler said:


> greetings all, and thanks for the very helpful info in this thread. I've just contacted BMW of Stratham, NH to inquire about European Delivery (ED, not the kind wherein two people are sitting in adjoining bathtubs afterwards).
> 
> We'll see where this goes, and I'll post updates to this forum in case it's helpful to others. Luckily, it appears that the dearth of BMW dealers in NH is nicely balanced by the variety of dealers in nearby Mass, where we in fact purchased our X3 just this summer. Probably ought to give them a call too. (Chambers of Sudbury)
> 
> Any tips, etc. from fellow New Englanders will be much appreciated. My wife has been mad/heartsick ever since we sold her 1M before moving out here from the left coast. So I'm going to try to get back in her good graces...


Alex Dytko is a recommended ED specialist in Peabody, MA who asked $1K+$289 over ED invoice of a 340ix. I did end up going somewhere else for a marginally better deal, but his was the best starting offer of the five dealers I contacted.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

cptcrunch said:


> Price over invoice varies wildly between dealerships, including sponsor dealerships. $500 over invoice is a dream deal, but not always realistic. Most sponsors on the forum quote $1500 over invoice with doc fee not including incentives. Your $500 over invoice might work, but the dealership might want a $500 doc fee, or include incentives to make the deal. I would say shoot for $1000 over invoice with doc fee not including incentives and say that the first dealer who offers that gets the deal. Dont stress over the extra $500, make it easy for yourself and the dealer.


*+1* :thumbup:

OP, in the car business, price is a function of supply, demand and competition! All three of those are important. 

I checked with Edmunds.com to see if Kansas has a state law regulating the dealer's "doc fee," and they don't. Edmunds claims the average "doc fee" in Kansas is $285.


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## Flanker66 (Jan 10, 2016)

shinobiprof said:


> First, I want to say how grateful I am for all of the advice and experience that is shared here. I've lurked for a long time, but I'm ready to move on a purchase now and your insights have been really valuable so far.
> Here's the scoop: I am working to negotiate ED for an M235i xdrive coupe in early March and am communicating with several dealers using the Rizzo Method. I'm offering $800 in dealer profit.
> I'm optioning the car this way; the pricing I am using to calculate my offer is in the final column:
> M235i xdrive coupe $40,335.00
> ...


*shinobiprof*, have you been able to work out a deal with your local Indiana dealers? If yes, which ones?
I'm looking to get the same build, but so have have very little traction from Chicagoland dealers. :dunno:


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## GT3Racerich (Jan 10, 2013)

furby076 said:


> Even though there are about five or six dealers within 45 minutes of each other, don't bother. They either don't know ED or dont care. Even the managers don't know. I had one tell me a 335 comes out of allocation and because of that he could do either ed MSRP or AD invoice +1000 for an ED. I told him he had no clue what he was talking about his prices are wacked out, and in five minutes i would have ed invoice plus 500 to 1000 minus factory incentives. He told me goodluck finding that. He was right. *Ten* minutes later i had the ed invoice plus 750 minus factory incentives from Adrian Avilla. I walked back in and let him know.


I know your post was a while back but could I ask what dealership Adrian Avilla is from?
Thanks, Rich


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## GT3Racerich (Jan 10, 2013)

Bmw still shows a 7% discount for E. D. for a 328 Sports Wagon. Is that correct or has it not been updated yet? 
With a base of $42,650 X .92 I get $39,238.
Do I then multiply that by .93 getting $36,491 (for 7% off) or by .95 getting $37,276 (for 5% off)?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Rich


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

GT3Racerich said:


> I know your post was a while back but could I ask what dealership Adrian Avilla is from?
> Thanks, Rich


Try BMW of South Atlanta


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## Miamimike21 (Jan 30, 2016)

*How to find current incentives?*

Wow I learned a lot today!! Thanks to all the posters helping to educate me. I'm planning on doing my second ED this upcoming summer and won't make the same mistakes I made the first time. My question is where does one go to find current incentive programs?


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## JTDM (Jul 22, 2014)

@MaimiMike21,

That's easy to find and no dealer can fiddle that. Find the dealer willing to do deals on invoice plus is what you should focus on. You can calculate residual from BMWNA leasing detail. If you have specific model, just ask.


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## lo123ufo911 (Jan 31, 2016)

*ED Invoice Price verification*

Hi All,

Quick question above the ED. I am looking at the 2016 535xi and notice that its the last model year before the refresh in 2017. My question is, is ED still an available option for F10 5 series at this moment? If so, when is the ED likely to be discontinued for F10?

I am big fan of the F10. like the conservative look and the interior. Will this summer be the best time to get it?

Also, can someone please help me verify my calculation on the ED invoice price?

US MSRP: $58,150 * 0.95 * 0.92 = $50,823
Options: $4,800 * 0.91 = $4,368
Destination: $995 (no discount)

ED Invoice = $50,823 + $4,368 + $995 = $56,186

Much appreciated


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

lo123ufo911 said:


> I am looking at the 2016 535xi and notice that its the last model year before the refresh in 2017.


It's not a "refresh, " it's a totally new generation. The F10 will be replaced by the G30 on the new CLAR platform and it will include many of the same features now found on the G12 7-series.



> My question is, is ED still an available option for F10 5 series at this moment?


Yes.



> If so, when is the ED likely to be discontinued for F10?


The EOP (end of production) month for the F10 is October 2016, therefore you could pick up a new 2016 F10 5-series as late as the first half of November 2016.



> Will this summer be the best time to get it?


My guess -- and it's strictly as guess -- is that the deals on the current 5-series will start looking sweet in March or April and just improve as the year goes on.



> Also, can someone please help me verify my calculation on the ED invoice price?
> 
> US MSRP: $58,150 * 0.95 * 0.92 = $50,823
> Options: $4,800 * 0.91 = $4,368
> ...


Your percentages are exactly correct!


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## lo123ufo911 (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks a lot Ninong!


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## racefaith (Mar 17, 2005)

*Is the Winter Drive credit applicable ?*

Hello. It's been awhile since I've posted or owned a BMW... 2 prior and both via ED. Home runs. I recently did a BMW winter drive experience event which offered $1K towards purchase. Didn't even think to ask if credit is applicable to ED purchase. Anyone have insight here?
Thanks


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

Ninong said:


> Quote:
> Also, can someone please help me verify my calculation on the ED invoice price?
> 
> US MSRP: $58,150 * 0.95 * 0.92 = $50,823
> ...


But to complete the ED Invoice Price you must add the $475 bump-up to give $56,661


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

4Fan said:


> But to complete the ED Invoice Price you must add the $475 bump-up to give $56,661


That is correct but we did not know that in January.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

...and the latest change from BMW...

the .92 has become .93
the .91 has become .92

So in the past year the ED invoice price, before any MRSP increase, has increased by 3% plus $495.


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## Yobyot (May 17, 2005)

I am not surprised that ED pricing is becoming less competitive. With the euro down so much against the dollar, BMW might have to hold pricing as level as possible for the vast bulk of its business, which is delivery off a dealer lot. But for the small and, face it, unimportant revenue from US customers taking ED, BMW can pass along more of the currency costs.

I went sailing with the Boston BMWCCA this weekend (a total blast!) and a guy asked me if ED was "worth it" and if one comes out "even". For the first time, I actually said no. But then I launched into why, if you are BMW fan, this ED is a bucket-list item.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

Yobyot said:


> I am not surprised that ED pricing is becoming less competitive. With the euro down so much against the dollar, BMW might have to hold pricing as level as possible for the vast bulk of its business, which is delivery off a dealer lot. But for the small and, face it, unimportant revenue from US customers taking ED, BMW can pass along more of the currency costs.
> 
> I went sailing with the Boston BMWCCA this weekend (a total blast!) and a guy asked me if ED was "worth it" and if one comes out "even". For the first time, I actually said no. But then I launched into why, if you are BMW fan, this ED is a bucket-list item.


A lower Euro means BMW gets more Euros from each NA sale, so that should work in our favor...

ED is not done to save money, it is an experience, well worth the cost. ED savings help, but Europe is priceless!


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## Alexbello09 (Aug 19, 2016)

First time doing ED. Can someone check these numbers for me? US MSRP is $71,385. Thanks!!


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## Boraxo (Sep 6, 2005)

Having recently bought a popular Mercedes SUV under "invoice" using the Fighting Chance method (essentially an RFQ bid process) - which is similar to Rizzo - I make the following recommendations:

(1) Don't buy or even start negotiations or discussions until the last week of the month. Dealerships all get so much under the table money from monthly bonuses, etc. that they are only highly motivated to cut deals when your sale puts them over the top.
(2) Prequalify dealers by calling a few, asking for internet or fleet manager, and tell him that you plan to buy this week but that he will have to submit an offer or he doesn't get to play. If possible solicit other nearby metro areas (e.g. Northern and Southern California).
(3) Email a dozen dealer with exact specs (and MSRP) and tell them to submit an offer. Feel free to be bold and suggest that based on your research they will need to offer at (or below) invoice. Give them a 24-36 hour deadline.
(4) Call or better yet text the dealers that did not reply and tell them you didn't get their email. This will result in a few more hurried offers.
(5) Call in reverse order (highest to lowest) and give them 1 opportunity to beat the lowest bid.
(6) Do not peg your final price to "invoice" - I found 2 dealers who used fake invoices with marked up prices. Always get an actual $ price which should be easy if you are ordering the car.

As noted above, prices vary widely depending on geography and timing. I found prices in NorCal were $4k less than the best SoCal price. But that could be reversed for your car. And end of month/quarter/year incentives might reduce the price even further. "Invoice" price is as meaningless as "MSRP" now due to the huge under-the-table incentives that are paid to dealers. Think about it - no dealer can operate a showroom and make a profit at $500 per car. The only way to get the best price is to make dealers compete, and you can't do that one-on-one at a single showroom.


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## Carfin Robby (May 31, 2009)

*2017 ED Invoice Pricing*



4Fan said:


> ...and the latest change from BMW...
> 
> the .92 has become .93
> the .91 has become .92
> ...


Just did a deal on a 2017 G30 540i European delivery.

ED Invoice basic car = US MSRP * 0.95 * 0.94 (Was 0.93 new for 2017)

ED Invoice Options = US MSRP * 0.92 (same as 2016)

Dest & Handling as before $995. Dealer mark up. What you can negotiate.


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## pfitzpa1 (Dec 1, 2005)

Carfin Robby said:


> Just did a deal on a 2017 G30 540i European delivery.
> 
> ED Invoice basic car = US MSRP * 0.95 * 0.94 (Was 0.93 new for 2017)
> 
> ...


is this the same for all models?


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## logicalscott (Jun 29, 2006)

Alexbello09 said:


> First time doing ED. Can someone check these numbers for me? US MSRP is $71,385. Thanks!!
> View attachment 573826


It's $2k+ over ED invoice. I get leasing but generally it's not for me. In my mind you need to look at the acquisition fee as cap cost, so you are at $67k+.

If you think the residual value is padded enough to offset that high cost and make the lease payment good, go for it.


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## racer33 (Jan 26, 2017)

Carfin Robby said:


> Just did a deal on a 2017 G30 540i European delivery.
> 
> ED Invoice basic car = US MSRP * 0.95 * 0.94 (Was 0.93 new for 2017)


Can anyone confirm the 0.93 was changed to 0.94 for 2017? I'm about to start contacting dealerships for my ED but want to have my numbers right first.


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## VitaminHan (Apr 12, 2016)

racer33 said:


> Can anyone confirm the 0.93 was changed to 0.94 for 2017? I'm about to start contacting dealerships for my ED but want to have my numbers right first.


I just talked to my CA 3 days ago and the invoice price he showed me was based on 0.93. That was for a 3 series


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