# So I suppose I should post my track writeup on this board, too...



## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Plus, you're talking about 60-0, straight-line max stopping force. How many autocross courses have braking zones like that? There are some times you're using them, for sure, but not like that, for that long of a time. I really don't think HP pads account for much time on an autox course.

IMHO 

Edit: Yeah, what Clyde said.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Now, it is true that ABS engagement isn't a strict gauge of maximum brake torque--after all, proper braking technique will let you slow down faster than you would if you jammed on the brakes. But the OEM pads give you far more braking torque than you'll ever need at an autox.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Now, it is true that ABS engagement isn't a strict gauge of maximum brake torque--after all, proper braking technique will let you slow down faster than you would if you jammed on the brakes.


ABS will not slow you faster than threshold braking, but to trigger ABS, you have to go beyond that point.


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## Andre Yew (Jan 3, 2002)

I'm not a very good or dedicated autoxer, but it seems to me that shortening one's braking distance is about the last thing on the list of things to do when you want to decrease your lap times. The order I've learned (for the track at least) is:

1. Getting on the throttle earlier in a turn.
2. Carrying more speed through the turn.
3. Decreasing braking distance.

That's in order of decreasing effectiveness, with decreasing brake distance a very distant third, because of the amount of straightline speed and distance each one affects.

--Andre


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> ABS will not slow you faster than threshold braking, but to trigger ABS, you have to go beyond that point.


 My point, although it was poorly worded, was that a deliberate engagement of the brakes will get you a much higher maximum torque, as you will give them the chance to to more than simply lock up.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Andre Yew said:


> I'm not a very good or dedicated autoxer, but it seems to me that shortening one's braking distance is about the last thing on the list of things to do when you want to decrease your lap times. The order I've learned (for the track at least) is:
> 
> 1. Getting on the throttle earlier in a turn.
> 2. Carrying more speed through the turn.
> ...


 Yes, but autoxing in stock class only gives you so many things to do. And to be fair to Andy, he's worked on every legal part of his car that would do the other two. He just did not/does not understand that performance pads really don't do **** for low speeds on a decent car.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And to be fair to Andy, he's worked on every legal part of his car that would do the other two.


Yes, this is true.

I guess I should further clarify why I think I need/want better pads/braking... There have been a couple of events this year where the course had a long straight away into a tight turn. Speeds got up to 45 to 55 MPH down the straight with really hard braking at the end of the straight.

At the beginning of the year, better braking wouldn't have really helped all that much because I didn't have the experience behind me to really know my braking distance and would tend to brake a little early just to be safe.

I'm still working on perfecting this, but have become a lot better at knowing exactly when to brake hard before the corner. I am now working on trying to brake at the very last possible moment and have found my braking distance isn't as short as I like (is it ever?  ), so I have thought about getting a set of high performance pads to see if I can shorten that distance as much as possible.

Another thing that I'm looking for, is a more solid brake pedal feel. Right now, I feel as if I have too much brake pedal travel before the brakes really start to bite. I'd like to get a little more bite when the pedal is first applied. One thing I did recently, was replace my brake fluid with ATE Super Blue. This didn't seem to help the pedal feel at all, but another reason I did this, was because I knew I would be attending a BMWCCA DE this year or next.

Anyway, that's the long of it. Any ideas on how I can shorten my braking distance and/or get more initial bite when the pedal is applied (and stay stock legal) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Andy

PS - Sorry Nick to hijack you're thread. Mods, if you want to turn this into a new thread, please feel free to do so. Thanks.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Andy said:


> Any ideas on how I can shorten my braking distance



Stickier/lighter tires (if you weren't already on what are just about the stickiest/lightest tires you can use)
lighter wheels
lighter exhaust
make sure that you are use the special lightweight ZHP air in your tires
become anorexic to lighten the driver
use lightweight kevlar helmet
drive naked to lose the weight of your clothes
think lightweight thoughts when on course
get used to and deal with the fact that are driving a heavy ass vehicle


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

I don't see any reason to split this off. Brakes are quite relevant to the thread. Mods, please don't.

Now, that said, you only have so much traction, and your brakes are more than adequate. I'm actually switching to Axxis Deluxe Plusses for a couple of reasons. 1) I'm lazy. 2) I'd like MORE pedal travel and LESS initial bite because I tend to lock the brakes up.

The ONLY way you're going to shorten your brake distance is with better braking technique and/or more traction. I'll let you know how much I like a 275/285 F/R Hoho setup when I wear out my current set. 

If you want a firmer pedal, you don't want the Hawk HPS. They have much less initial bite than OEM. The other thing to consider is that your friend may like the fact that the HP+ don't bite to well cold for the same reasons I've described here. And if they do get warm, remember that he has twice as much power, the same weight, and one hell of a lot more tire.

One final point: ATE Superblue absorbs water very quickly. Don't even think abotu going to a track event with fluid that's more than three months old. I've found that it gets noticably mushier on the street in that time. ...and I would switch to Typ200 before your brake system is too badly stained.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> Stickier/lighter tires (if you weren't already on what are just about the stickiest/lightest tires you can use)
> lighter wheels
> lighter exhaust
> make sure that you are use the special lightweight ZHP air in your tires
> ...


 You forgot going through the dealer's garbage and taking the most badly worn out rotors you can find.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

·clyde· said:


> drive naked to lose the weight of your clothes


I already do this... butt for other reasons. :eeps: :bigpimp:

Thanks for the pointers gentleman... just looking for every possible advantage I can get. Getting your butt whipped by cars that are 500 lbs lighter then yours is not fun... is to be expected, yeah... but not fun!!  Although, it is making me faster!!


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> If you want a firmer pedal, you don't want the Hawk HPS. They have much less initial bite `than OEM. The other thing to consider is that your friend may like the fact that the HP+ don't bite to well cold for the same reasons I've described here. And if they do get warm, remember that he has twice as much power, the same weight, and one hell of a lot more tire.


Actually HP + works very well so far for my application. Just warm it up during the warm-up lap and you're good to go. A bit noisy for the streets though. It's not that linear however. Has performed very well for those 2-day, hot afternoon track events out here in calif.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Vince, we're talking about autox with a maximum speed of 55MPH. The issue here is that Andy did not (possibly still does not) understand that traction is the issues, and that more braking force will only make the car harder to drive.


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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Vince, we're talking about autox with a maximum speed of 55MPH. The issue here is that Andy did not (possibly still does not) understand that traction is the issues, and that more braking force will only make the car harder to drive.


ahh...I skimmed through everything. Btw what's an AutoX?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Autocross. Slow speed, timed event through a course defined by cones.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> The issue here is that Andy did not (possibly still does not) understand that traction is the issues, and that more braking force will only make the car harder to drive.


 :rofl: :rofl:

:nono: Come on Nick, I'm not as dumb as you think I am. :tsk:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Andy said:


> :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> :nono: Come on Nick, I'm not as dumb as you think I am. :tsk:


 :fingers: :AF330i:


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> :fingers: :AF330i:


 :AF330i:


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Nick, I also told you the fluid wasn't up to it.  I have a case of Motul RBF 600 in the garage for track events.

I have been running the Turner Cool Willy track pads and like them. You can drive them to/from the track, but with dust and squeal. But much nicer to do them at home than at the track.

Clyde, I am not sure that this is true with modern ABS systems. Modern multichannel ABS systems allow different amounts of braking to deal with differing amounts of traction for each wheel. NO driver can do this on their own. Also the cycle speed of the system is much faster than a driver can fine tune the braking force.

Also look at racing rules, most racing doesn't allow ABS. And those that do, give the cars with ABS a weight penalty, but teams still opt to run with ABS, Makes me think that current systems can work better than the driver.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> The big difference, though, is that you will NEVER brake anywhere near as hard at an autox as you do at the track. It's a big adjustment and it's tough to wrap your head around the idea that you've GOT time when you're blazing down the straight at 145MPH.


I think you mean "never brake anywhere near as long at an autox" 

SRF is a good choice, I won't use anything else :thumbup:

Andy, you aren't Danny Popp :angel: , stick with HPS, the + pads are too grabby for all but the smoothest drivers, but for autox there's no reason to change the OE pads until they're used up


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