# teenagers in M3s



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *It's the high power that's the issue becuase of the danger it poses to themselves and (more importantly) others. Being rewarded for nothing more than being the offspring of affluent parents says something ugly about the future of our society, but the direct threat posed to my family, my friends and myself by inexperienced, unskilled and irresponsible drivers that are also addled with the poor judgement posessed by teenagers concerns me more. *


I agree with you on that...

I live in a pretty "affluent" area (I think) and I see these "well-off" teenagers doing stupid stuff all the time... :tsk:

Really makes me worry about what is becoming of the society we live in sometimes.

I like to blame stupid TV shows like MTV Jackass for stuff like this.  hehehe


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

It takes more than 18 years to appreciate the possible dangers of a very fast car. Teenagers also have a sense of invincibility which is a bad thing to have in a fast car.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *Teenagers also have a sense of invincibility which is a bad thing to have in a fast car. *


I speak from experience here...putting one into a guardrail at 80+ and walking away without even a bruise from your seatbelt doesn't necessarily do much to shatter the illusion.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *I speak from experience here...putting one into a guardrail at 80+ and walking away without even a bruise from your seatbelt doesn't necessarily do much to shatter the illusion. *


I did the same thing at 19, missed a corner going well over the speed limit and hit a guardrail and ended up in a ditch. Didn't get a scratch, just backed the car out of the ditch and drove home. My car was a different story I totally flattened the side of my cherry 65 Malibu SS.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *I did the same thing at 19, missed a corner going well over the speed limit and hit a guardrail and ended up in a ditch. Didn't get a scratch, just backed the car out of the ditch and drove home. My car was a different story I totally flattened the side of my cherry 65 Malibu SS. *


Sheared the front end off the Mustang, picked up a hole in the roof and spent the rest of the day in a salvage yard...after a lecture from a New York State Trooper.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *I did the same thing at 19, missed a corner going well over the speed limit and hit a guardrail and ended up in a ditch. Didn't get a scratch, just backed the car out of the ditch and drove home. My car was a different story I totally flattened the side of my cherry 65 Malibu SS. *


Did the same at 18, carrying 4 people in the car (myself, my brother, his friend, and my dad), was going a little fast when my brother all of a sudden shouted to me that I missed the exit...

Slammed on the brakes, did a hard turn right and heard a loud "BOOM" as my front left yokos blew up, the car UNDERSTEERED toward an 18' drop-off on the off-ramp at some insane speed, countersteered for the life of me and just mashed the hell out of the gas pedal. Managed to bring the car away from the 18' drop and steered right into some icy plants on the side of the freeway. Ran over a miles marker but other than that and a blown tire, came away totally unharmed and the car ('90 integra) still in perfect running condition.

Of course my brother's friend NEVER got into any car that I am driving ever again. Strangely enough, my dad didn't even blame me for the accident...He just told me stuff like this happens, and next time, just calmly head for the next exit. :thumbup:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *Of course my brother's friend NEVER got into any car that I am driving ever again. Strangely enough, my dad didn't even blame me for the accident...He just told me stuff like this happens, and next time, just calmly head for the next exit. :thumbup: *


I've always followed your dad's advice, except I say, "No, we're just going to take the scenic route."


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> *Slammed on the brakes, did a hard turn right and heard a loud "BOOM" as my front left yokos blew up, the car UNDERSTEERED toward an 18' drop-off on the off-ramp at some insane speed, countersteered for the life of me and just mashed the hell out of the gas pedal. Managed to bring the car away from the 18' drop and steered right into some icy plants on the side of the freeway. Ran over a miles marker but other than that and a blown tire, came away totally unharmed and the car ('90 integra) still in perfect running condition.*


You managed to put the tail out in a FWD car? :yikes:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

doeboy said:


> *You managed to put the tail out in a FWD car? :yikes:  *


I see FWD cars oversteering all the time on autocross courses.

What confused me about the description of events was how he countersteered to fight the effects of UNDERSTEER. :dunno:


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## CD-55 (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *I was under the impression that leasing has dramatically reduced the exclusivity of high end cars.  *


Ferrari¡¦s new Enzo F60 is only for lease only. I think the plan is some sort of lease to own thing¡K or own if you prove worthy. ƒº

That is how Ferrari decided to keep them off the used market for a few years.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> *I see FWD cars oversteering all the time on autocross courses.
> 
> What confused me about the description of events was how he countersteered to fight the effects of UNDERSTEER. :dunno: *


I guess countersteer was the wrong word...

Let me go into a bit more detail description.

First, we nearly passed the exit ramp. Slammed on the brake hard and pulled a very hard right. Car started moving onto the exit ramp with a 18' drop. Front left tire BLEW causing the car to loose traction up front, car plows straight for the 18' drop on the right side of the exit ramp (inside curve). At this time I turned the steering wheel left (mind you, this all happened in a blink of an eye) and all of a sudden the car regained traction and I had to plow on the accelerator to pull the car away from the 18' drop right into the ICY plants on the side of the freeway.

I dunno how to describe it better. I think I was sensing "understeer" because when I tried to pull out of the turn onto the ramp, that's when the front left tire blew and the car pulled back toward the right, which is where the cliff is...and then both wheel lost traction. :dunno:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> *I dunno how to describe it better. I think I was sensing "understeer" because when I tried to pull out of the turn onto the ramp, that's when the front left tire blew and the car pulled back toward the right, which is where the cliff is...and then both wheel lost traction. :dunno: *


Yikes man... well glad you made it outta that sticky situation...

Hard to say how any of us would react in a pinch like that too...


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *I guess countersteer was the wrong word...
> 
> Let me go into a bit more detail description.
> *


I think it's just a matter of terminology. I was a little confused as to what you meant, but I get the gist of what happened. I wonder if what you did was actually just lessen the right steering lock rather than actually steer to the left (relative to dead center). Lessening the lock can help the tires regain traction and tighten your turn. Counterintuitive, but it works.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

Speaking of missing exits... that's something that really gets me. And I see this all the time, from young kids to middle-aged, to old farts. What possesses people to stop on a highway and then reverse to get back to an exit!? :tsk: 

A couple years back, a high school girl from my town missed an exit on I91 just on the southern fringe of Springfield. Anyone who knows the area knows how bad the Longmeadow Curves are. Anyway, she missed her exit and decided to back up to get to it. In the process, she inadvertently backed into the right lane of traffic and got walloped by a tractor-trailer. Not only did she kill herself, but her car load of high school friends! All she had to do was take the next exit 1/4 mile away and maybe added 5 minutes to her trip. :tsk: 

I've made a point never to do anything like that. I won't even make a turn in an intersection if I happen to be in the wrong lane. I will go where my lane tells me to go and turn around somewhere. Even when I was 17, I at least had enough brains to do this... much to the frustration of my friends in the car who couldn't understand why I wouldn't cut lanes after they waited too long to tell me a direction. Never has this been a problem for me. I don't understand why other people can't comprehend this.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

doeboy said:


> *2) the driver training/testing process is way too easy.
> *


That's true - but if it weren't so easy, I wouldn't have been able to buy my car (can't buy one without a license), therefore wouldn't have had anything to practice on, and couldn't have taken any of the driving schools I took. :dunno:

My heads-up was skidding and hitting a guardrail at ~15mph on a hairpin. Blew the airbag (?!), knocked me unconscious, concussion, scrapes and burns over my entire face. That takes away the feeling of invulnerability really fast.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Where do you guys see all those teenagers in M3's doing stupid stuff? I agree, younguns, myself included, are not the most reasonable people on the road...but I MUCH more frequently witness stupid stuff done by middle-aged and older people in mini-vans. And don't get me started on taxi drivers.

It looks like selective *****ing about young peeps in nice cars, doesn't it?


And on the topic of nice cars being bought by parents...
Imagine you are quite a wealthy man. You've got one son, who, you hope, will be worthy your hard-worked-for family name...
So, do you want a burger-flipping-guy in your household, who has no sense of style, who doesn't know shit about good wines or cognacs, for example? Why the hell would you want a ******* in your family?

What's the point of making money, after all. Spending it all on yourself and letting your child start from the very beginning like you did? Or giving him/her a good start so that they in turn can reach even higher levels?

It can go both ways, obviously. But I just can't comprehend how some of you could treat your own blood like that :eeps: Oh well.

Oh, and comments like "they've got more money than brains" are absurd. Nobody makes money by being stupid


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

rost12 said:


> *And on the topic of nice cars being bought by parents...
> Imagine you are quite a wealthy man. You've got one son, who, you hope, will be worthy your hard-worked-for family name...
> So, do you want a burger-flipping-guy in your household, who has no sense of style, who doesn't know shit about good wines or cognacs, for example? Why the hell would you want a ******* in your family?
> 
> ...


:banghead:

:tsk:



:tsk:


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

rost12, you have just reinforced my negative opinion about teenagers and M3's.


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## Matthew330Ci (Sep 9, 2002)

rost12 said:


> *Where do you guys see all those teenagers in M3's doing stupid stuff? I agree, younguns, myself included, are not the most reasonable people on the road...but I MUCH more frequently witness stupid stuff done by middle-aged and older people in mini-vans. And don't get me started on taxi drivers.
> 
> It looks like selective *****ing about young peeps in nice cars, doesn't it?
> 
> ...


 :tsk: :banghead: :lmao:


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

Dave 330i said:


> *I would much rather have a M3 for my son than a loaded gun in the house. But, I could only afford a SVT for him. *


 Profound statement considering statistics and all. But, if you did buy a m3, I doubt it would go to your son.


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

rost12 said:


> *So, do you want a burger-flipping-guy in your household, who has no sense of style, who doesn't know shit about good wines or cognacs, for example? Why the hell would you want a ******* in your family?
> 
> What's the point of making money, after all. Spending it all on yourself and letting your child start from the very beginning like you did? Or giving him/her a good start so that they in turn can reach even higher levels?*


I think you have a lot to learn man. Your first statement is just assinine. And, you have a point with some people on the second, but certainly not all. There is no way on earth I would ever pave the road for my kids. I would certainly help put them through college but thats it, and I garuntee I will tell them I think they should go into the military first. I wont force them into anything, but if I have my way they will earn everything they get.. No fancy cars, and wrist watches.

On the subject however, teenages, and I was once a teenager, have a stupid knack of thinking themselves to be "good drivers", they also think that they are invincible. If I had my way no one would get their license till they're 18 anyways.


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## dlloyd1975 (Sep 8, 2002)

Probably the best car for any teenager is something like an 1983 Oldsmobile Diesel Coupe. Big, slow, and unattractive. As long as they wear their seatbelts, it'd be fairly difficult to get into trouble in a car like that, save jumping it over the railroad tracks to see how many parts fall off. I didn't even have my own car until I was 20.

Teenagers need to have a job of some kind that they get on their own so they can work towards a goal of some kind. It's an important life skill that goes far beyond appreciation of cognac, wine or taste in clothes. If you don't know how to treat your fellow man with respect, think of the long term picture and learn that a little humility isn't all bad, then you're pretty a pretty trashy person. It doesn't matter whether you live in a trailer park or Bel Air, trash stinks. Helping your kid out, like paying for college tuition or giving a gift for the down payment on his or her first house is far different than buying your kid expensive clothes or a car just for the sake of trying to give them "class."

And, yes, even though I worked at McDonalds and Taco Bell in high school, I still have an appreciation for cognac, fine wine and good food (as evidenced by my ever increasng gravitational field). Maybe I have even more of an appreciation because I had to work for these things.


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## variable42 (Mar 15, 2002)

rost12 said:


> *It looks like selective *****ing about young peeps in nice cars, doesn't it?*


It's selective *****ing about kids in cars they didn't earn. Even if they can grow to appreciate the performance aspect of the car itself, it's not likely to teach them the value of the car (i.e., the value of a dollar).



> *
> And on the topic of nice cars being bought by parents...
> Imagine you are quite a wealthy man. You've got one son, who, you hope, will be worthy your hard-worked-for family name...
> So, do you want a burger-flipping-guy in your household, who has no sense of style, who doesn't know shit about good wines or cognacs, for example? Why the hell would you want a ******* in your family?
> *


The only way to know a good wine is to also have experienced all the lesser wines below it. If a child never experiences the "other half" (or other 90% in this case), how can he possibly fully appreciate or understand anything else?



> *What's the point of making money, after all. Spending it all on yourself and letting your child start from the very beginning like you did? Or giving him/her a good start so that they in turn can reach even higher levels?
> 
> It can go both ways, obviously. But I just can't comprehend how some of you could treat your own blood like that :eeps: Oh well.
> *


There's a line to be drawn between "helping your child," and "spoiling your child." If you provide everything for your child and don't teach him to provide for himself, it'll just make things more difficult.

I'm 21. You have no idea how many I know from my generation, from wealthy families, that are completely dependent upon their parents, financially... and a good portion of them are 4 and 5 years older than I am. Sure, they have a brand new BMW/Lexus/Acura/etc and wear clothes from designer boutiques; they're also clueless and scared shitless at the idea of having to make their own money. They'll likely be dependent on their parents for the majority of their life... and it's sad.

Then you have the kids who've already graduated college and have a decent job, but still live with their parents because... *shock* they couldn't make their M3 payments or pay for their thousands of dollars of mods if they actually had to pay rent, utilities, etc. If they were *saving* the money instead of spending thousands a month on clothes and toys, I wouldn't think it was pathetic. Do you think they'll have any idea how to teach their kids to be financially secure? No way.



> *
> Oh, and comments like "they've got more money than brains" are absurd. Nobody makes money by being stupid  *


You've obviously never watched "The Osbournes," or "The Anna Nicole Smith Show."  Making money and knowing what and what not to do with it are two different things.


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

variable42 said:


> *You've obviously never watched "The Osbournes," or "The Anna Nicole Smith Show."  Making money and knowing what and what not to do with it are two different things. *


:thumbup: :thumbup: Perfectly said.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

variable42 said:


> *
> 
> Then you have the kids who've already graduated college and have a decent job, but still live with their parents because... *shock* they couldn't make their M3 payments or pay for their thousands of dollars of mods if they actually had to pay rent, utilities, etc. If they were *saving* the money instead of spending thousands a month on clothes and toys, I wouldn't think it was pathetic. Do you think they'll have any idea how to teach their kids to be financially secure? No way.*


I'm pretty much with you except for parts of this one. There are people I know that are in their late 20s/early 30s that still live at home for various reasons. In most of those cases (not for a minute do i think this is typical, but it may be more common than some realize), the kids are financially self-sufficient and function more as the care takers in their households...making sure that their parents bills get paid, repairs to house are made, take care of the landscaping, etc. A couple of the ones I know are terrified to move out becuase they are afraid that their parents won't be able to take care of themselves. I don't think that those situations are any healthier, but they do exist.


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## bten (Sep 22, 2002)

I believe in helping depending on the child. I have one who needed a car to do research at a local university in while in high school. I was glad to support it because she worked so hard in school. I did provide her with a 1 year old Buick Skylark that I bought new knowing she would need it later. I have done similar things with the other 2 teenagers.

I believe in supporting their college educations (they still need to work for spending money). But after they get their degrees, I'm done.

I also tell them that their degree is their inheritance. Whatever is left over is for my wife and I!


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## dRea177cHa5eR (Apr 27, 2002)

this issue is quite an important one i think. when i first got my license, my parents offered to buy me a used volvo 240, which i still believe is is quite a good car for beginning drivers due to obvious reasons. but, my parents became interested in the navigator. but tha'ts besides the point. 

so, after the navi purchase, i wuz given the keys to our 94 e34 540i. pretty soon, my parents and i both learned THAT wuz a mistake. rain + turn + teenager = broken bikerack + $3000 of damage + freaked out kid. luckly, i missed the power pole and a bus stop bench by a couple feet. but lesson learned definitely.

i'm not for the policy of parents not letting kids drive until 18 or sumthing, cuz i mean, it is about experience, and 16 and 18 doesn't provide much time for maturing neways. 

it's just hard for some parents to figure out that eventhough cars like the M3 is safe and nice if operated correctly, it is also vehicles for big time trouble. 

rost12's point about older poeple not knowing how to drive is a valid point too, but in a different manner. most likely, they'll be going too slow, instead of driving off the embankment w/ a M3.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *rost12, you have just reinforced my negative opinion about teenagers and M3's. *


Elaborate please


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

variable42 said:


> *You've obviously never watched "The Osbournes," or "The Anna Nicole Smith Show."  Making money and knowing what and what not to do with it are two different things. *


I didn't. But I could argue that behind those stupid "stars" are producers and directors who are smart enough to make money pretty much with anything. But I won't, I get your point 

Btw, man, that's a beautiful sig pic :thumbup:

Dunno people, maybe I'm wrong. In Russia, where I spent most of my life, children can't do pretty much ANYTHING without their parents help. It's not what you know or who you are, it's all about who your father is and who he knows, so it's natural that parents pave the way for their children. Heck, part of the reason my family moved to Canada was to escape from that. But my mindset didn't change much, I guess.

I'll go beat myself into submission now, sorry for the interruption 

Maybe not  Okay, you love your children. You don't want to see them dead, do you? Good modern cars are safer than 80s Civic they would get with their paltry payrolls, aren't they? One point.

And, I didn't say that children of rich parents shouldn't work. I worked and continue to do so, and my knowledge of english and general wit  are pretty beneficial for my father's business. Most of my friends in Russia work too, in some way or another.
But this doesn't mean that I gotta live on my salary...

All those who replied with criticizing smilies, could y'all please elaborate. I might learn something useful from this forum after all


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## beauport (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by variable42 I'm 21.
> . [/B]_


_

I got to this point in your post and my jaw dropped. I hope your parents are very proud of the person they helped raise._


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

I don't know how old you are rost12 (18-22), but you're old enough to figure out for yourself what's wrong with your attitude. When you are done with college, give back your fathers money and make your own way in the world... you'll be a better person.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *I don't know how old you are rost12 (18-22), but you're old enough to figure out for yourself what's wrong with your attitude. When you are done with college, give back your fathers money and make your own way in the world... you'll be a better person. *


Today, I really don't think there's anything wrong with my attitude. I'll drop by in 20 years and then we will know wether it was wrong or not 

And please, I'm a pretty good person as it is. I could be better in a lot of ways, but none of them have anything to do with money.


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## shragon (Jan 20, 2003)

my friend's teenage cousin killed himself driving a new e46 m3 given to him from his parents. cause was speeding and loosing control of the car.

imho, these cars are way too powerful for teenagers. going back to when i was a teen, being inexperienced, it's easy enough to wreck a car. also, speed felt real good (as it still does) and the feeling that nothing will happen. but when it does... :tsk:


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

Okay, and how many older guys kill themselves in much lesser cars every freaking day?

Why single out teenagers in nice cars, again I ask ya people.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

The point is, adults usually "buy their own deaths". They earned their own right to stupidity. There are TONS of adults on the roads that I don't think should be driving. They drive everything from econoboxes to exotics, minivans to school busses, and trucks to SUVs.

However, where the argument of this thread lies is how inappropriate and irresponsible it is for adults (parents) to just GIVE a teenager any car... let alone something as potentially dangerous as an M3.

Give a kid a Chevette, and he'll treat it like crap, expect that he's "owed" more than that, and could possibly wreck it.

Give a kid an M3, and he'll still treat it like crap, expect that he can get away with anything and mommy and daddy will make it right, and more than likely wreck it.

Make a kid buy his own Chevette, and he'll be more likely to take care of it while he earns the money needed to move on to something better. Above all, while he'll still do teenage-stupid things... he's probably less likely to wreck it.

Now, there may be exceptions to the rule... but when I was in high school, everyone I knew who was given a car had no regard for it. They even said that "My parents gave it to me, but I hate it. If I wreck it, they'll give me something better." And this from the guy driving the Mustang 5.0! (This is in 88-89).

I paid my own parents $2000 for their 5-year old VW Jetta Diesel that needed brakes, muffler, and other work. I paid all the maintenance myself and was grateful because I learned the value of a dollar, and more importantly what car ownership was about. In 2 years, I was able to buy, on my own, a brand new '91 Jetta GLI... at that time, it was my "dream car". (Either that or a Corrado... which when looking back I wish I had gotten instead.)

You know... this whole argument is similar to another issue that irks me. All these parents of 12-year-olds who just blindly go out and buy them Grand Theft Auto: Vice City because the kids want it. It all boils down to bad parenting. Parents don't want to do the work anymore. They'd just rather pass off the responsibility. Whether it's 12 yo Billy's copy of GTA to keep him off their backs or 17 yo Billy's M3 to shut him up. Then they blame the game developers or car manufacturers when Billy does something bad, like grow up with shitty morals or kills someone while racing on a dark and rainy road.

And for the record, I would whole-heartedly endorse a law/regulation that had car-specific licensing. In other words, if you want something along the lines of an M3, then you need to take a course like the M Driving School and pass a tough test. Hell, tests and schools should be tougher for anyone... regardless.


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## beauport (Jul 2, 2002)

rost12 said:


> *Okay, and how many older guys kill themselves in much lesser cars every freaking day?
> 
> Why single out teenagers in nice cars, again I ask ya people. *


Statistically speaking, and the insurance companies know this very well, teenagers are a far greater risk than adults 25 and older. Why the high rates, just cause they're singleing out teenagers?


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

OBS3SSION said:


> The point is, adults usually "buy their own deaths". They earned their own right to stupidity.


And this makes it right how?



> Give a kid a Chevette, and he'll treat it like crap...
> 
> Give a kid an M3, and he'll still treat it like crap, expect that he can get away with anything and mommy and daddy will make it right...


My 325i was given to me by my parents. I love the car and I care about it more than my parents ever will. On the first door ding I got my father's response was "it doesn't affect the car's speed, does it?" 

People give you presents, right? If the present is nice and you like it, you'll take care of it regardless of wether you paid for it or not, won't you? Or is it just me.

I really don't see how these "treating like crap" and "understanding the value" are in any manner related to receiving the thing in question or buying it.

Also, how does buying your kid a car give him the impression that "daddy will make anything right"??? It's not like "daddy" bought his kid outta prison :dunno:



> Hell, tests and schools should be tougher for anyone... regardless.


No argument here!


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

beauport said:


> *Statistically speaking, and the insurance companies know this very well, teenagers are a far greater risk than adults 25 and older. Why the high rates, just cause they're singleing out teenagers? *


Don't start me on the insurance companies, man. Probably one of the biggest mafia operations in North America, they are.

Explain why my father (45 yo) and I pay the same rate...


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## beauport (Jul 2, 2002)

rost12 said:


> *Don't start me on the insurance companies, man. Probably one of the biggest mafia operations in North America, they are.
> 
> Explain why my father (45 yo) and I pay the same rate... *


My guess is that your father's driving record is not shiny clean and yours may be. Age is not the only determining factor for rates, add to that the driving/accident record, where you live geographically, the make/model/year of car, etc.

But you ignored the original point I was making, teenagers pay higher insurance because statistcally they have more accidents, more traffic violations, etc than do people 25 and older.


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

rost12 said:


> *Don't start me on the insurance companies, man. Probably one of the biggest mafia operations in North America, they are.
> 
> Explain why my father (45 yo) and I pay the same rate... *


 rost no offense bud but the farther you take this argument, the more desperate and far fetched you sound. I know you truly believe what you are saying, and there is nothing anyone of us can say to persuade you. But, just wait till your 25, or 30, or 40, or whatever. At some point in your life you will look back and think about how stupid you were as a kid. The only adult who can look back and not see how stupid they were, are probably still stupid. You may not understand now, but you will someday.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

dredmo said:


> *At some point in your life you will look back and think about how stupid you were as a kid. The only adult who can look back and not see how stupid they were, are probably still stupid. You may not understand now, but you will someday. *


Oh, do I ever agree with that. Even at my ripe old age of 30, I know this to be true. And boy oh boy did I do some stupid things as a teen... and even 20-something.

I may be the only person on this board who can claim that he almost ran himself over with his own car. (Yes, I was the driver... and yes, I was the one in front of the car too. It's complex... but nonetheless stupid.  )


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

I'm agreeing with rost12 here, guys. It's seems that all your arguements boil down to is just MONEY. Screw value of a dollar and earning your way, I have yet to see any of my friends not be relatively successful that came from well-off, generous families. There is an undeniable connection between successful parents and successful children. And if the successful parents want to reward the child and give them a gift, what exactly is wrong with that?

I am struggling to pay for my car myself, but that was indeed my choice. I didn't have to buy it, I could basically have the E30 325is in the garage if I wanted to. I bet if I just asked mom and dad would assume the payments for my car. However, I do feel a certain pride when I can look in the driveway and see what my hard work has accomplished. But then again, if that 323 magically turned into an M3 as a bonus from the parentals, it's not like I would cry about it.

I think it's the whole "value of money" thing that just doesn't click in my head. Why must everything you have in your name be worked hard for? Isn't that just what is drilled into your head all your life? If you can get what you desire more easily and without hurting another, why shouldn't you do it? :dunno:


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## Spiderm0n (Dec 19, 2001)

Mystikal said:


> *I'm agreeing with rost12 here, guys. It's seems that all your arguements boil down to is just MONEY. Screw value of a dollar and earning your way, I have yet to see any of my friends not be relatively successful that came from well-off, generous families. There is an undeniable connection between successful parents and successful children. And if the successful parents want to reward the child and give them a gift, what exactly is wrong with that?
> *


No, its really not about money. It's about horsepower. It has been proven time and time again that teenagers, particularly teenage boys are the most dangerous driver on the road. Add too that a teenage boy with a 300+ HP car (m3) and it is a recipe for disaster.

If parents want to shower their kid with a new BMW then get him/her a 325 or 330. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. Personally I would never buy my 17 year old a new 330, regardless of how much money I had, but thats me.

I have seen PLENTY of kids born to money turn into NOTHING. Well nothing but drug addicts maybe. They never worked for anything, got bored, and turned to drugs. It is a fact that first generation immigrants in America have a greater chance of becoming self-made millionares than people born in America. Not having everything from day one tends to make people work harder.


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## Brashland (Nov 20, 2002)

I think rost may be an exception to the debate, and good for him if he is. My car history is as such:
First car was a 82 Subaru station wagon. 6 year old when I got it and A PERFECT car for a new driver and living in Hawaii (could keep my stuff in the hatch). More importantly though, my parents provided a private school education for me.
On to college and for the first 6 months, no car. Then I got my 87 Nissan Stanza in Jan of 1991, I was estatic. That car lasted me through out my college career.
On to grad school in 95 and I had a 92 Saturn coupe. That car accompanied me thru 2 Master Degree programs.
Graduation, a few jobs, and now after 1 1/2 years of solid FT work, my 99 323i conv. 
Never in my life have I owned a new car. And more importantly my parent provided for me the necessities to get a step up in life: a loving solid home, religious upbringing, morality, confidence, a good education, emotional and financial support, and a reliable vehicle. 

Vehicle accidents are still the #1 killer of adolescents in the US.

To me it all boils down to how responsible people are. There are some than can handle a sports car like an M, but of all the kids out there I would bet less than 1% are responsible enough or 'deserve' something that nice. 

I was always glad to have my joe schmoe cars, I took care of them, and in 14 years of driving I've only received 2 tickets and NO TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS EVER.


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

beauport said:


> *My guess is that your father's driving record is not shiny clean and yours may be...
> 
> But you ignored the original point I was making, teenagers pay higher insurance because statistcally they have more accidents, more traffic violations, etc than do people 25 and older. *


Shiny clean records for both of us. Not even a speeding ticket.
So there.

Maybe, but I'm more inclined to believe that insurance companies are trying their best to rip you off, stats be damned 
There are 3 levels of drivers license in Canada. When I was on the second one my insurance broker told me I will pay less when I finally get the highest level. When I did, he told me that it doesn't matter since I'm only 21, and all I can do to reduce my premium is to get old or get married... I have a 20 year old married friend. You think he drives any better than he did 8 month ago before he got married?  

Anyhow, what am I arguing about...  :lmao:


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## rost12 (Dec 22, 2001)

dredmo said:


> *rost no offense bud but the farther you take this argument, the more desperate and far fetched you sound. I know you truly believe what you are saying, and there is nothing anyone of us can say to persuade you. But, just wait till your 25, or 30, or 40, or whatever. At some point in your life you will look back and think about how stupid you were as a kid. The only adult who can look back and not see how stupid they were, are probably still stupid. You may not understand now, but you will someday. *


I really didn't intend to sound desperate...I have no reason too 

Age is one thing. But the longer I live the more I notice the difference between "rich" and "poor". All in relative terms, of course, that's not the point. The point is that outlook on life differs greatly between different classes.

I don't mean this to be offensive in any way, but I'm not going to munch around with political correctness either 

This is all I want to say on this topic  I apologize that I lead this thread onto the discussion of money, but I couldn't stand it when you guys started bad-mouthing parents of the "kids-in-M3s". It's not your money to spend and not your decision to make.

Cheers.


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## 3LOU5 (Jun 14, 2002)

It seems to me that I see more teenage kids in M3's than adults here in San Diego.

:dunno:

Lucky bastiges. 

:banghead:


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

My parents gave me a loan that I paid back in full for my first car, an '84 CRX. They also contributed some (but not all) for my second car, a '91 Integra GS. It was a college graduation present. The kids that get M3s just have richer parents. No big deal if you ask me, although I don't think I'd buy a car that fast for my kid. :dunno:


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## dredmo (May 28, 2002)

rost12 said:


> *I really didn't intend to sound desperate...I have no reason too
> 
> Age is one thing. But the longer I live the more I notice the difference between "rich" and "poor". All in relative terms, of course, that's not the point. The point is that outlook on life differs greatly between different classes.
> 
> ...


With regards to personal freedoms I am damn near a libertarian rost. I would agree fundamentally that 16 year olds in McLarens and GT3's is capitalism working, and money being spent the way it was intended, freely. But, I know how I was as a kid, and I also know how kids are as kids, Hell in some ways I am still a kid. I think the overwhelming majority of kids are stupid. Especially boys. We are very self destructive at younger ages. I used to fire a 357 out the window at road signs, and blow up mail boxes with toilet bowl cleaner bombs. I used to make potato guns, and car surf.

I was diagnosed (wrongly thank God) with permanent ear damage in my right ear. As a passenger, I never took into account me missing, and maiming someone when I would shoot at old country road signs.

When I used to mix toilet bowl cleaner and aluminum foil balls in a 2 liter pepsi bottle (had to be a plastic lid) so I could blow up watermelons and mail boxes, I never took into consideration the consequences.

When We made a potato gun out of high grade 4 inch plumbing conduit, with a pressure fit cap with a self tapped and dyed lid on the bottom so we could fill with hair-spray, then mounted a gas grill spark igniter on the end, I never considered that the end cap would blow off, break two of my friends ribs, and make a bruise about 8 inches in diameter square in the middle of his chest. I was still laughing before I realized by friend could not breathe right.

When I was drunk off my ass, and passing out in the passenger side, when my friend says "Can you hold the wheel a sec" when I grabbed it, he popped out the window, at 30mph and car surfed, then swung back in at his discretion, in the middle of town at 3 a.m. I thought it was funny. Man I could go on and on rost. Kids, especially boys, are self destructive and do now realize what they are doing. So when I really look at all aspect of whether or not a kid should have a super car, my love for the constitution says yes, but my respect for life says no. Luckily, I am a concerned parent and would never let my child drive anything faster than a bling bus.


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