# How to Save Money Doing Euro Delivery



## Nat Brown (Dec 29, 2001)

I thought I would post this revised document here for prospective buyers.

--gary

HOW TO SAVE MONEY ON EUROPEAN DELIVERY 
version 1.4

By Gary Ray

There are two ways to save money by buying a BMW through the European Delivery program: 1) the price is lower, and 2) you have better leverage to negotiate the price.

*1. THE PRICE IS LOWER*
BMW has a lower invoice base price for European Delivery cars. You can usually find the invoice pricing on eurobuyers.com, kbb.com and other car buying sites. The invoice price is the price a dealer claims is the base price of the car before they take a profit. With other manufacturers, you can compute a wholesale cost, which is the invoice price, minus holdbacks and dealer rebates. BMW currently does not give its dealers incentives, so for our purposes the invoice price is what we're working with.

Another price saver is that Euro Delivery BMWs don't incur the MACO advertising fee, training fees, system fees, or other dealer tacked-on fees, except for destination and handling of your car.

_BMW 3, 5, and 7-series may be picked up via Euro-delivery, although M cars are not subject to discount pricing._

At the time of this writing (December, 2001), the difference between invoice cost on a Euro Delivery and "regular allotment" BMW 330i is $2325 on the base price. Some will look at this number, compute the cost of a trip to Europe and time off from work, and decide that a Euro Delivery BMW is not worth the money -- but we're just getting started. With a Euro Delivery BMW, you have more room to negotiate for a better price.

*2. YOU HAVE BETTER LEVERAGE TO NEGOTIATE THE PRICE 
THE REGULAR "ALLOTMENT" PROCESS*

Here's how BMW sales works: Each year, the dealer is given an allotment of cars. This means, a dealer may be able to order 500 cars from BMW. The dealer will order some of these cars with a certain configuration to sell to walk-in customers. Most cars, BMW dealers claim, are special order cars, requested by customers. What these cars have in common is that they are all out of the dealer's annual allotment. Supply and demand is hard at work in this scenario, and your power to negotiate is pretty weak. Why should the dealer sell you a car at $1500 over invoice when the next guy walking in off the street is willing to pay full MSRP?

Since BMW's are hot selling cars, someone is likely to come in fairly soon and make that full sticker offer (and possibly more!) on the dealer's allotment car. Supply and demand dictates what the dealer can get for this car, and because he's only got so many cars to sell that year, the dealership does their best to maximize profits. BMW salespeople don't negotiate on BMW's like you would, say a widely available, mass produced Ford. Even special order cars are effected by this supply and demand process. The allotment space is sitting out there in virtual space with an expected level of profit, and if you won't pay the asking price, someone else will.

This supply and demand dynamic is also how dealers can get "regional markups" of tens of thousands of dollars on performance BMW's, like the M3, M5 and Z8, or even the bar bones 325i sitting on the lot. If someone will pay the markup in a reasonable amount of time, the dealership will try to get it. European Delivery cars bypass this economic process. Don't blame the dealer for the markup, blame the idiot buyer willing to boost the price for all of us. Well, ok, blame the dealer.

*BYPASSING THE ALLOTMENT PROCESS WITH EUROPEAN DELIVERY*

European Delivery cars do not come out of the dealer allotment. Instead BMW ED cars come directly from the factory. The dealer has no expectation of profit from a European Delivery car, since they have no way of knowing how many they'll be getting over the year. Dealers have different ways of dealing with his unknown quantity.

Some dealers aggressively try to sell ED cars because it's pure profit. The ED car doesn't come out of their allotment, so it's icing on their cake -- pure profit for simply filling out some forms. Other dealers don't understand the ED process or don't want to be bothered with their already lucrative profit from allotted cars. They probably think they will make less money on a European Delivery car, because their friend, supply and demand, is asleep at the wheel. A third group of dealers tries to bypass the customer supply & demand advantage with European Delivery by simply not negotiating at all on European Delivery cars, possibly feeling that if enough people hear about this, they won't pay their inflated prices for standard allotment cars. In areas with few dealerships, these BMW dealers have a stranglehold on customers, unless the customer is willing to travel outside the area for their car purchase.

In any case, there are BIG savings beyond the invoice reduction on a European Delivery car when you find a dealer familiar with the European Delivery process who is also willing to negotiate. The savings are large enough that it wouldn't be unreasonable to purchase a European Delivery BMW from another state.

What kind of savings are we talking about? If you add up your costs for the car: base invoice cost, invoice cost of options, and delivery, you can often negotiate with the dealer for as little as $1000-1500 over invoice in profit. I'm not talking about $1500 under the MSRP, I'm talking about a small profit for the dealer over invoice. Let's look at a real world example to see the price savings.

*EXAMPLE PRICING OF A EUROPEAN DELIVERY CAR vs. REGULAR ALLOTMENT CAR*
Let's look at a regular BMW 330i with a sport and premium package (December, 2001 prices). You're paying:

*REGULAR ALLOTMENT BMW *
$39,185 (including destination & Handling)
BASE: $34,635
MACO: $300 (advertising fee) 
TRAINING & SYSTEMS FEE: $150 (more bogus fees) 
SP: $1200
PP: $2900

*EUROPEAN DELIVERY BASE PRICE (not negotiating)* 
$36,410 ($2325 base invoice discount) (including destination & Handling)
Computed by discounting the base invoice cost only.

*EUROPEAN DELIVERY NEGOTIATED PRICE*
$34,640 (savings of $1770 over ED base and $4545 off allotment car)($1500 over invoice)
(including destination & Handling)
BASE: $29,410 (including destination & Handling)
SP: $1090 (invoice cost)
PP: $2640 (invoice cost)
Dealer Profit: $1500

So if you understand the allotment process and can negotiate on the already lowered European Delivery invoice costs, you can save over $4500 on your new car! On top of that, if you live in a state with sales tax, you've just saved about $500 in taxes!

*BUT I CAN'T NEGOTIATE! I DON'T KNOW HOW! IT SCARES ME!*
Use the Rizzo Method. Create a fax with a copy of the euro invoice price sheet (showing you know what's going on) and your pricing worked out in a spreadsheet with the dealer profit clearly marked ($1500 is a good number). Fax it around to dealers in your area, telling them to fax back their acceptance. Do not include a voice telephone number and do not offer to negotiate. This is a take it or leave it deal for them to quickly and easily make $1500 for filling out a few forms (or whatever you offer them). If your local dealer won't negotiate, broaden your circle. With over $4500 on the line in the example above, and plans to fly all the way to Europe to get your car, are you really THAT reluctant to travel a bit in your own country to pick up your bimmer?

In November I got the car listed in the example above from a local dealer for $1000 over invoice. I would have been happy to fly several states over for such a deal, but I got lucky with the closest dealer to my home.

*WHAT ABOUT GOING TO EUROPE?*
You, personally, must show up to take delivery of the car in Munich with your passport -- no exceptions. You can always show up, drive the car across town to the Munich drop-off location and fly out the same day. You can even pay a small fee (about $50) and have them do this cross-town drop-off for you, but you absolutely MUST go to Munich to at least fill out the paperwork and take delivery. A round trip ticket to Munich is currently about $550 and can go up depending on the season. Munich is a large town, so there's a range of accommodations from about $60-150 per night.

A Euro Delivery car is probably best savored on the Autobahn during an amazing vacation, but hey, some people don't like to travel for whatever reason. Ideally you'll combine your European Delivery with a European vacation.

*WHAT ARE THE HIDDEN COSTS? EMISSIONS? SHIPPING? INSURANCE? WARRANTY ISSUES?*
European Delivery cars are 100% US specification cars. There are no fees, smog checks (that you pay for), instrument cluster switches or other expenses that you would have with a "gray market" vehicle. The car is 100% US spec, no exceptions. No one will ever hassle you about this.

BMW picks up shipping costs and insurance for the car (while in Europe). There are no other fees.

Your regular BMW warranty applies as normal and the car is treated EXACTLY as if you bought it off the lot of your local dealership -- only you've got thousands of extra dollars in your pocket and great memories of driving your car in Europe.

BMW North America won't allow you to add special options to a Euro Delivery car if it will effect the price. For example, a rear sunshade or custom paint would be disallowed. However, an option that doesn't effect the price is allowed if you can get your salesman to go to bat for you. Examples of special options that don't add cost include cloth seats and a different color headliner.

*PAYMENT GOTCHA*
One issue with European Delivery is that you need to pay for the car 30-days before you take delivery in Europe. So, in my example, I ordered the car in November for January Euro Delivery, paid for the car in December, made my first payment in January and received the car in the US in March. This means there were two months of payments while the car was still in transit. Although you have the car on your trip, you should really figure in the loss of two months payments, or at least the interest. If you're leasing, this might be completely unacceptable.

Enjoy your trip!


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## Stevarino (May 14, 2002)

I picked up a 323i in Europe two years ago. I am now getting ready to order a 330. Last time I paid Euro. Del. MSRP. Where do you get the dealer invoice on ED? Thanks.


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## Nat Brown (Dec 29, 2001)

Stevarino said:


> *I picked up a 323i in Europe two years ago. I am now getting ready to order a 330. Last time I paid Euro. Del. MSRP. Where do you get the dealer invoice on ED? Thanks. *


You can find invoice pricing on eurobuyers.com

--gary


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## hchon (Oct 15, 2004)

Also, I heard that depending on which state you are registering the car, you may not have to pay the sales tax at all. If you order and pay for your car, fly over to Germany and drive around for a month, have them ship it back to US which can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months and apparently, some states give you 30 day grace period to register your car in US (in the mean time, drive around in the Euro tag) and voila, you have passed the 90-day threshold for paying the sales tax. i.e. you save a whole bunch of more money than mentioned in the excellent article above.

I read this in an article written by someone on the United Airlines Hemisphere Dec. '04 issue. I am sure the article is available on line somwhere. In that artidle, the author took an ED of Porsche "roadster" (he won't say which model).

I hope this helps someone. And oh by the way, Munich is not a bad place to visit during the Oktoberfest. My wife and I visited last year and had a blast. 

hchon


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## sppuddsy (Oct 27, 2004)

Any idea where to find the link to that article?? Thanks.


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

Stevarino said:


> I picked up a 323i in Europe two years ago. I am now getting ready to order a 330. Last time I paid Euro. Del. MSRP. Where do you get the dealer invoice on ED? Thanks.


Look at the sticky's at the top of the ask a dealer main page. It has MSRP and dealer invoice (AKA wholesale). You'll have to scroll down a page or two to get to the wholesale prices. There's also a euro delivery forum accesable from the bimmerfest main page.....


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## ff1600 (Dec 27, 2004)

UA in flight magazine web site is www.hemispheresmagazine.com
but the European Delivery article is not listed.
I scanned this into a pdf which can be emailed to anyone who wants it. 
About 3.3mb.


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

hchon said:


> Also, I heard that depending on which state you are registering the car, you may not have to pay the sales tax at all. If you order and pay for your car, fly over to Germany and drive around for a month, have them ship it back to US which can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months and apparently, some states give you 30 day grace period to register your car in US (in the mean time, drive around in the Euro tag) and voila, you have passed the 90-day threshold for paying the sales tax. i.e. you save a whole bunch of more money than mentioned in the excellent article above.
> 
> I read this in an article written by someone on the United Airlines Hemisphere Dec. '04 issue. I am sure the article is available on line somwhere. In that artidle, the author took an ED of Porsche "roadster" (he won't say which model).
> 
> ...


This may vary from state to state but in California if you bring it in state within 90 days of it hitting the US you WILL pay a state sales tax. 
For example - buy the car in Oregon which has no sales tax. Pick it up in Germany in April and in May it arrives in Oregon. The date it arives in Oregon is when CA starts to count towards their 90 day rule - not the date you "touched" it in Munich.


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## MarcusSDCA (Jan 14, 2004)

"One issue with European Delivery is that you need to pay for the car 30-days before you take delivery in Europe. So, in my example, I ordered the car in November for January Euro Delivery, paid for the car in December, made my first payment in January and received the car in the US in March. This means there were two months of payments while the car was still in transit. Although you have the car on your trip, you should really figure in the loss of two months payments, or at least the interest. If you're leasing, this might be completely unacceptable. "

While many moan about making the 2 or 3 lease payments while your car is in transit I say this: 

My lease allows me to drive 36,000 miles without a penalty. Now, I only have the car for about 33 or 34 months in the ED scenario. This means I can drive more miles every month without going over the 36,000 allotment. Don't count the months...cause when you lease you're really paying for miles. Since I have 2 cars I can budget the miles I put on a leased car....but unless you drive the car all over Europe your ED car will have fewer miles on it than US bought cars. (not a LOT but it's something)


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## sppuddsy (Oct 27, 2004)

ff1600 said:


> UA in flight magazine web site is www.hemispheresmagazine.com
> but the European Delivery article is not listed.
> I scanned this into a pdf which can be emailed to anyone who wants it.
> About 3.3mb.


If you could email the article I would really appreciate [email protected]


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## shabbaman (Dec 16, 2002)

MARCUS545 said:


> "One issue with European Delivery is that you need to pay for the car 30-days before you take delivery in Europe. So, in my example, I ordered the car in November for January Euro Delivery, paid for the car in December, made my first payment in January and received the car in the US in March. This means there were two months of payments while the car was still in transit. Although you have the car on your trip, you should really figure in the loss of two months payments, or at least the interest. If you're leasing, this might be completely unacceptable. "
> 
> While many moan about making the 2 or 3 lease payments while your car is in transit I say this:
> 
> My lease allows me to drive 36,000 miles without a penalty. Now, I only have the car for about 33 or 34 months in the ED scenario. This means I can drive more miles every month without going over the 36,000 allotment. Don't count the months...cause when you lease you're really paying for miles. Since I have 2 cars I can budget the miles I put on a leased car....but unless you drive the car all over Europe your ED car will have fewer miles on it than US bought cars. (not a LOT but it's something)


This is a very weak argument. On a car that has a $.20/mile penalty you're looking at $400 for a 2000 mile overage. $320 if you're prudent and pre-pay for the excess miles with up to 10 months to go on your lease ($.16 a mile).

Your 545 is in the neighborhood of $700 - $750 a month - give or take a little depending on the deal and the car. The 2 months of lost use are worth $1400 - $1500. Take away the saved mileage and you're still looking at a real loss of $1000.

Having said that...the new program changes the rules and is so agressive that it so that your point and my point are both moot. 14 days vs. 30 days and 2nd payment waived and free airfare for 2 if you ED between January and March. Very Tasty indeed.


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## uter (Jan 6, 2002)

Don't forget this tasty tidbit about leasing with ED...
Overall capitalized cost is lower, but the residual quoted is still based on the higher stateside MSRP. Your "loss" of two months is minimized by your lower lease payment.


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## rogue38 (Aug 26, 2004)

> Also, I heard that depending on which state you are registering the car, you may not have to pay the sales tax at all. If you order and pay for your car, fly over to Germany and drive around for a month, have them ship it back to US which can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months and apparently, some states give you 30 day grace period to register your car in US (in the mean time, drive around in the Euro tag) and voila, you have passed the 90-day threshold for paying the sales tax. i.e. you save a whole bunch of more money than mentioned in the excellent article above.


Anyone know how the sales tax laws work in Georgia. Being a resident of another state I don't have to pay the Ad-Valorum Tax, but gennerally any car I've purchased here I paid sales tax on.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Do you guys think it'll be possible to get a discount off Euro MSRP on a new E90 next year?

Even if not, it's a great time to do Euro Delivery, cause you'll pay sticker otherwise on the E90 for the first 6 months or more.


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## redm (Dec 29, 2004)

shabbaman said:


> This is a very weak argument. On a car that has a $.20/mile penalty you're looking at $400 for a 2000 mile overage. $320 if you're prudent and pre-pay for the excess miles with up to 10 months to go on your lease ($.16 a mile).
> 
> Your 545 is in the neighborhood of $700 - $750 a month - give or take a little depending on the deal and the car. The 2 months of lost use are worth $1400 - $1500. Take away the saved mileage and you're still looking at a real loss of $1000.
> 
> Having said that...the new program changes the rules and is so agressive that it so that your point and my point are both moot. 14 days vs. 30 days and 2nd payment waived and free airfare for 2 if you ED between January and March. Very Tasty indeed.


I was just cruisin' the 'net and fell in here!

Back in '98 I took Euro delivery on an Alpine White M3 coupe 5sp. I spent a week driving through the Alps in Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, France and Italy. The savings on the deal paid for the trip plus US$102 (road food and Best Western).

At the risk of spending other people's money my suggestion is to just do it. Judging from the iron listed on the sigs on some of these posts money's the least of the issues. You'll never have more fun than when you drive from Chamonix to Martigny and back again!

Enjoy!


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

redm said:


> I was just cruisin' the 'net and fell in here!
> 
> Back in '98 I took Euro delivery on an Alpine White M3 coupe 5sp. I spent a week driving through the Alps in Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, France and Italy. The savings on the deal paid for the trip plus US$102 (road food and Best Western).
> 
> ...


I didn't think M cars were every discounted? Euro delivery invoice is the same as US invoice, right?


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## redm (Dec 29, 2004)

Dawg90 said:


> I didn't think M cars were every discounted? Euro delivery invoice is the same as US invoice, right?


I believe that they are no longer discounted but back then they were discounted approx. 10%. You still had to account for the U.S. duty but on a US$40,000 car...


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## SBIRS (Nov 4, 2004)

Just curious...where can I find details on Porsche's ED program?
I will be buying a new car in the next several months. Something in the 40-55k range.
Love the redesigned Boxters. If I could get like a 10% savings versus buying a US car I would seriously consider the Porsche.


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## SBIRS (Nov 4, 2004)

OK, did some research and found out it acutally costs more to pick up a Porsche in Germany. They can kiss my ass then. :thumbdwn:


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## elmalloc (Dec 7, 2003)

SBIRS said:


> OK, did some research and found out it acutally costs more to pick up a Porsche in Germany. They can kiss my ass then. :thumbdwn:


lol


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## jefflieb (Nov 19, 2003)

Gary, would you mind if I quoted (copied most) and credited you for this posting in my upcomming ED expierence web site??

Jeff


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## uter (Jan 6, 2002)

jefflieb said:


> Gary, would you mind if I quoted (copied most) and credited you for this posting in my upcomming ED expierence web site??
> 
> Jeff


Haven't seen Gary, Nat Brown, post here in a while.


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## 2005 745Li (Dec 23, 2004)

*Don't forget to figure in cost of rental car...*



shabbaman said:


> This is a very weak argument. On a car that has a $.20/mile penalty you're looking at $400 for a 2000 mile overage. $320 if you're prudent and pre-pay for the excess miles with up to 10 months to go on your lease ($.16 a mile).
> 
> Your 545 is in the neighborhood of $700 - $750 a month - give or take a little depending on the deal and the car. The 2 months of lost use are worth $1400 - $1500. Take away the saved mileage and you're still looking at a real loss of $1000.
> 
> Having said that...the new program changes the rules and is so agressive that it so that your point and my point are both moot. 14 days vs. 30 days and 2nd payment waived and free airfare for 2 if you ED between January and March. Very Tasty indeed.


If you were planning a driving vacation through Europe you would also have to budget for the cost of renting a car. I just checked the Hertz.com website and a Premium rental listed as 'E-class or similar model' goes for about $150 USD per day. Taking advantage of ED saves you that cost.

The current incentives for the ED program have tipped the scales in my opinion. I will be taking delivery of a 745Li on 3/15/05. My wife and I fly from Detroit to Frankfurt to Munich on 3/12/05 and return on 3/23/05 via Vienna to Frankfurt to Detroit. The total cost of the airfare from Lufthansa is only $430 for both tickets! (including taxes and everything)

The only things I am still trying to figure out are 1) Do we do one of the custom packages offered by Valerie Wilson Travel (at a significant premium) or try to put together our own vacation. and 2) How to go about getting the European NAV disc before the trip.

I'll search the rest of this board for answers but if anyone has any suggestions in the meantime I would appreciate it.

Thanks.


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## fq (Nov 9, 2003)

*Has anyone explored the 3-month sales tax waiver rule*

mentioned above for CA for IL.

Thanks TIA


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## Raskov82 (Oct 24, 2004)

fyi for california they have recently changed the 90-day rule. for cars purchased after ocbober 1, 2004, it is one year. also you can't count transit time. so according to cali law, you'd have to remain in europe (with the vehicle) for a year in order to be excused from paying sales tax. of course with the cali tax rates that may be worth it... the way the law is written it'll revert back to 90 days for sales made after (and possibly on) july 1, 2006 but i imagine they will extend the provision when we get closer to its expiration.

**this is not legal or tax advice**

good luck.


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## fq (Nov 9, 2003)

*Thanks for the reply. Would you or someone else*



Raskov82 said:


> fyi for california they have recently changed the 90-day rule. for cars purchased after ocbober 1, 2004, it is one year. also you can't count transit time. so according to cali law, you'd have to remain in europe (with the vehicle) for a year in order to be excused from paying sales tax. of course with the cali tax rates that may be worth it... the way the law is written it'll revert back to 90 days for sales made after (and possibly on) july 1, 2006 but i imagine they will extend the provision when we get closer to its expiration.
> 
> **this is not legal or tax advice**
> 
> good luck.


have info on what the law is in Illinois.


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## killa-b (Jan 3, 2005)

Hi there, im kinda new to the board, and long story short, after driving my parents BMW for the past few years, im now able to buy my own!

i finish university in April and am looking at ED wondering if anyone would be able to help me.

if anyone knows anything about the Canadian ED policy, invoice prices, etc it would be great help.

im looking at buying a 325i for April pickup, could i still do ED so close to the E90 launch? should i expect the same 7% off Dealer MSRP? and then aim to take another 1-2% off that price?

any help would be great, thanks.

edit: FYI its a 346 325i i was looking to get, but if E90's will be avaliable for April i may consider that.


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## mspeed76 (Nov 13, 2003)

oh no, this is bad news. do you have a link to this information? TIA



Raskov82 said:


> fyi for california they have recently changed the 90-day rule. for cars purchased after ocbober 1, 2004, it is one year. also you can't count transit time. so according to cali law, you'd have to remain in europe (with the vehicle) for a year in order to be excused from paying sales tax. of course with the cali tax rates that may be worth it... the way the law is written it'll revert back to 90 days for sales made after (and possibly on) july 1, 2006 but i imagine they will extend the provision when we get closer to its expiration.
> 
> **this is not legal or tax advice**
> 
> good luck.


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

With regards to the sales tax issue....if you buy the car in a state where there is no sales tax, the dealer is obviously not collecting the sales tax up front, correct? 

Couldn't you just register the car in the state you purchased it in, and then later put in a change of registration with the DMV to the state you reside in?  

R.R.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

fq said:


> mentioned above for CA for IL.
> 
> Thanks TIA


I don't know how it works in any other state but in N.J. they got you coming and going. I bought a car in Al. 2% sales tax when I went to register it in N. J. the sale tax is 6% so they charged me the difference,4%. They have somthing going on from state to state that you can't get away with anything.
vern


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## tkflips (Oct 25, 2004)

*Still the same rules on allotment?*

My dealer told me that my ED would come out of his allotment. Has this changed since the original posting in 2001? Thanks for bringing forward this older link...

TKflips :rofl:


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## BillKach (Sep 22, 2003)

tkflips said:


> My dealer told me that my ED would come out of his allotment. Has this changed since the original posting in 2001? Thanks for bringing forward this older link...
> 
> TKflips :rofl:


I see from your profile that you're getting a 6er. Your dealer wasn't BSing you - ED orders for the new 6 do come from the dealer's allocation. I had a hard time finding a dealer willing to sell one at ED MSRP.


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## roberttbmw (Jan 11, 2005)

There are rules on how long you had the car in the prior State, if you had it for that long, when you move to the next State, you don't pay TAX



RichReg said:


> With regards to the sales tax issue....if you buy the car in a state where there is no sales tax, the dealer is obviously not collecting the sales tax up front, correct?
> 
> Couldn't you just register the car in the state you purchased it in, and then later put in a change of registration with the DMV to the state you reside in?
> 
> R.R.


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## BigBoris (Jan 8, 2004)

RichReg said:


> With regards to the sales tax issue....if you buy the car in a state where there is no sales tax, the dealer is obviously not collecting the sales tax up front, correct?
> 
> Couldn't you just register the car in the state you purchased it in, and then later put in a change of registration with the DMV to the state you reside in?
> R.R.


It's when you change the registration to the new state that they get you. They won't issue you the new registration and plates without having you pay up the (additional) sales tax.

Not sure about other states but Washington has a very strict policy and it's a *very* expensive ticket if you don't get WA state registration in a timely way. Typically that would happen if you were to get a parking or traffic ticket. At that point you'd face the ticket you were going to get anyways, the ticket for not registering your car in WA, and then finally, the additional sales tax when you do get your new registration. Happened to a co-worker a couple of years ago. Not fun.


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## RichReg (May 7, 2003)

roberttbmw said:


> There are rules on how long you had the car in the prior State, if you had it for that long, when you move to the next State, you don't pay TAX


I see......so then if you had the car long enough in that tax-less State, you don't pay the tax, right? 
What are we talking here, a month or two?


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## yvesj (Dec 25, 2003)

Another advantage of ED, you get 2 new cars for the price of one.
The first one is your car when you get it in Munich, and that you can enjoy driving in Europe for as long as 3 or 6 months.
The second one is your car when you get it in the states.
BMW fully re-preps the car, detailing and fixing any reasonable problem such as minor scratches interior or exterior.
They'll replace missing items such as mats.
You really get the emotions of a new car twice.


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## eksath (Apr 4, 2003)

2005 745Li said:


> The only things I am still trying to figure out are 1) Do we do one of the custom packages offered by Valerie Wilson Travel (at a significant premium) or try to put together our own vacation. and 2) How to go about getting the European NAV disc before the trip.
> 
> I'll search the rest of this board for answers but if anyone has any suggestions in the meantime I would appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks.


I put together my own trip as there is plenty of American tourist friendly places there.

2) BMW loaned me an Euopean NAV disk at pick up (they offered it to me ) and I returned it with the car at drop off. I noticed a stack off them at the drop off office and the agent actually picked it up while doing the walk around. It was hassle free and saved me at least a hundred bucks. Alternatively, you can buy it from the BMW dealership at pickup. The location also functions as a pick up point for europeans.

have fun.


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

RichReg said:


> I see......so then if you had the car long enough in that tax-less State, you don't pay the tax, right?
> What are we talking here, a month or two?


As with so many of these things, depends on the state.

Mid 1994 I buy a 325i and register it in Oregon. I'm actually on active duty in the military and a legal resident of Oregon and buy the car in Maryland, but the Maryland part does not matter -- the effect is as if I bought the car in Oregon. I register the car in Oregon, a state without tax.

Late 1995, I am still physically in Maryland and retire from the military, thereby losing my legal Oregon residence. When I go down to MVA to register my car in Maryland, they want 5 percent of the current value in tax -- and they use KBB or whatever, so they do the value (no cheating.) Had I paid tax to some other state when I bought the car new, they would've given me credit for that, but I'd paid no tax at all, so I had to ante up something like $1500 tax for my used 325i.

So in the case of Maryland, for example, a month, a year, a decade....doesn't matter, although technically you may be talking two different taxes: 5% excise tax on new car versus 5% excise tax on used car.


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## 530iii (May 6, 2004)

*Ed*

Simply put you pay less, so you finance less, if leasing the cap cost is less, and one pay's less in taxes.

On an E90 3er one might save about 3 grand, on an E60 5er about 4 grand give or take a couple of hundred depending on your ED deal.:angel:


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## jbudroe (Sep 18, 2005)

*Have the rules changed?*

I stopped by a Nevada dealer that had a 330Ci with ZHP w/o leather to look at the seats. While there, I asked him about pricing. He got huffy, and tried to tell me that ED cars still came out of dealer allocation. When I told him that was BS, he backed off, but insisted that the 7% discount off MSRP came off dealer profit, and so they added an upcharge to get that back. From past threads, I'd be inclined to say that's BS also. Have the rules changed? Also, given the current demand for 3-series cars, is it futile at this point to try to negotiate an ED price under MSRP?


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## Kel (Mar 29, 2003)

So where to find BMW dealers in 2013 who are doing $500 or less over the true Euro Delivery Invoice? ( Please do not mix up with US Invoice or MSRP.)


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## Kel (Mar 29, 2003)

Please clarify---customers do Euro Delivery and the new car is shiped back from Europe not to their dealer, but to the BMW center in Spartanburg Performance Center?



[email protected] said:


> FYI - I'm happy to do a ED for anybody in the country - as I've been sending a bunch of buyers to Performance Center to pick up their cars. That opens me up to the whole east coast


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## SD ///M4 (Jan 24, 2011)

Kel said:


> So where to find BMW dealers in 2013 who are doing $500 or less over the true Euro Delivery Invoice? ( Please do not mix up with US Invoice or MSRP.)


The $500 over European invoice may be for a 3 Series but will more than likely be more as you move up through the BMW Series, e.g., $1000 for a 5 Series and $1500 for a 7 Series. M cars most likely would not qualify for this pricing. Most board sponsors would do deals for this pricing, click on the "Site Sponsors" link above. The specific forums you need to browse through are the European Delivery forum and the Ask A Dealer forum.



Kel said:


> Please clarify---customers do Euro Delivery and the new car is shiped back from Europe not to their dealer, but to the BMW center in Spartanburg Performance Center?


See the BMW USA site under the "Explore BMW" tab for more information and browse the "Performance Center Delivery" forum.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Kel said:


> So where to find BMW dealers in 2013 who are doing $500 or less over the true Euro Delivery Invoice? ( Please do not mix up with US Invoice or MSRP.)


Most of those guys sold so many cars that they took early retirement as multi-millionaires... Most of the CAs now charge a bit more.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

If the trend continues to have people do ED and then drop the car the next day for shipment back to the States BMW's Tourist Delivery process is doomed to extinction.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

dkreidel said:


> If the trend continues to have people do ED and then drop the car the next day for shipment back to the States BMW's Tourist Delivery process is doomed to extinction.


What makes you say that? BMW doesn't care if you drive the car 1 mile or 1000 miles when you're over there. :dunno:


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

bmw325 said:


> What makes you say that? BMW doesn't care if you drive the car 1 mile or 1000 miles when you're over there. :dunno:


I don't know if he's right, but they nixed the M car program this year.


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## mcwoods (Dec 18, 2007)

Say what?! Would you clarify about the M-cars, Jon?
I was looking to ED an M5 this year... :eeps:


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## enigma (Jan 4, 2006)

mcwoods said:


> Say what?! Would you clarify about the M-cars, Jon?
> I was looking to ED an M5 this year... :eeps:


I think what Jon meant is that the European Delivery M's now come out of dealers' allocations. This basically means that many dealers won't be willing to do low-margin deals on EDs if they can get more profit for stateside deals.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

bmw325 said:


> What makes you say that? BMW doesn't care if you drive the car 1 mile or 1000 miles when you're over there. :dunno:


Actually, they care very much. The Tourist Delivery program WAS NOT intended to be a fly-in, fly-out discount program. BMWNA is hyper aware of the strong up-tick in these types of Tourist Deliveries and is watching closely.

Internally BMW calls the program Tourist Delivery, not European Delivery. Not much tourism going on with the proliferation of quickies. The M5 deliveries in September was a galvanizing point in AG and NA's monitoring of the program.


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

Maybe the program was not designed as a discount program, but currently it looks like the best way to get the lowest price now that the USAA program slashed their incentives on BMW's.


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

What would BMW consider to be the "minimum" amount of time to spend before you can drop off the car? What if you want to pick up the car and drop it off right away because you're going to Europe for a cruise or something that would not require driving and be able to give the car a head start back to the states? What about for couples that might want to do a "2-fer" and drop off one car immediately? Seems like it would be nigh on impossible to enforce any sort of minimum time requirement.

-MrB


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

mrbelk said:


> What would BMW consider to be the "minimum" amount of time to spend before you can drop off the car? What if you want to pick up the car and drop it off right away because you're going to Europe for a cruise or something that would not require driving and be able to give the car a head start back to the states? What about for couples that might want to do a "2-fer" and drop off one car immediately? Seems like it would be nigh on impossible to enforce any sort of minimum time requirement.
> 
> -MrB


Why would or should BMW care? They are still making roughly the same profit on a ED car.
What difference does it make how long or far you drive it before drop off for shipping to the USA?


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

mrjoed2 said:


> Why would or should BMW care? They are still making roughly the same profit on a ED car.
> What difference does it make how long or far you drive it before drop off for shipping to the USA?


That was kind of my point.

-MrB


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

mrbelk said:


> That was kind of my point.
> 
> -MrB


Right - just adding to what you said.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

mrjoed2 said:


> Why would or should BMW care? They are still making roughly the same profit on a ED car.


So if they don't care, why put all the effort into it? Scrap the whole ED program, or charge extra for it.

While they explicitly don't say so, they want people to immerse themselves in the European experience and increase loyalty to BMW. That's why it's worth it for them to offer this program, which does cost them more in terms of personnel, insurance etc.

Do you see anything on the BMW ED website that says pick up your car, drop it off and save? Wouldn't that make it easy for people and help them increase sales rather than have all this fluff about driving around, taking a tour, visiting a museum etc.?


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

Actually, several of the European makes including Mercedes publicize the savings of a European delivery. BMW also offer the program because their competitors do ( Benz, Porsche)


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

So explain to me how it benefits dealers and manufacturers if all people do is pick up their cars and drop them off. Why not reduce the selling price in the USA by a few hundred across the board and be done with it? Wouldn't that be a lot less work for the same number of sales?

Just because your competitor offers a program that makes them less profit doesn't mean you have to. Do you see Jaguar offering a European Delivery program? Manufacturers only do it because they think they can sell more cars in the long run by doing so, not just because their competitors do it.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

mrbelk said:


> What would BMW consider to be the "minimum" amount of time to spend before you can drop off the car? What if you want to pick up the car and drop it off right away because you're going to Europe for a cruise or something that would not require driving and be able to give the car a head start back to the states? What about for couples that might want to do a "2-fer" and drop off one car immediately? Seems like it would be nigh on impossible to enforce any sort of minimum time requirement.
> -MrB


I don't know specifically they have a minimum, but if, for example, 50% of several thousand ED's were 24 hours from delivery to drop-off the program might be euthanized. I have had several conversations about this with both NA and AG staff, and it's on their radar. We've done a "two-fer" and dropped the Z4 the same day; that's what precipitated the initial conversation with AG. Keep in mind NA's customer is your dealer (not us) and the dealers have a lot of sway with NA and AG - look at the F10 M5 cluster last fall.

Obviously, there is less money in it for NA and/or AG since the dealer can do pretty good on an incremental non-allocation car - it's the dealer's business decision to sell anywhere from ED MSRP down to ED invoice + X. There are lots of weasel words around CSI $, but the fact remains each ED reduces the net gross profit shared by AG and NA. They have their reasons for supporting the ED program and lots of quickies subverts their intent and goals.

Years ago the " quicky" ED was rare; now it is becoming more common for cost savings. I can't say I blame anyone, but the program as we know it could be altered or terminated if BMW AG/NA isn't happy with the situation.

A similar discussion about $$ can be made for the BMW CCA rebate. I'm not sure why that program exists, but I get a check from NA for $1,000 once a year :thumbup:


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

chrischeung said:


> So explain to me how it benefits dealers and manufacturers if all people do is pick up their cars and drop them off. Why not reduce the selling price in the USA by a few hundred across the board and be done with it? Wouldn't that be a lot less work for the same number of sales?
> 
> Just because your competitor offers a program that makes them less profit doesn't mean you have to. Do you see Jaguar offering a European Delivery program? Manufacturers only do it because they think they can sell more cars in the long run by doing so, not just because their competitors do it.


I don't honestly think Jaguar is a good example. They have been on life support for quite a while, being sold by one owner to the next. And while I don't argue your logic about the program, your off on the price. As many buyers are stating in the ED forum they are getting BMWCONFIG invoice + dealer fee averaging 1K, even when you add in airfare + expenses it's several thousand less than USA deals. Especially as current BMW offers like the $3500 for the 6 series I'm interested in can be used on ED.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

mrjoed2 said:


> And while I don't argue your logic about the program, your off on the price.


Really? ED is about 2.5% of US sales of 250K. Say average saving is $3,000. So they could drop the ED program, and reduce all US cars sold by $75 spreading the savings for all cars sold. Add to that the dedicated ED department staff and overhead to handle the facilitation with DHL etc., and they could likely push the amount to $150 per car.


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## irianjim (Jul 7, 2012)

This is an interesting thread. 

First of all, we don't really know if BMW makes less on a car sold on ED or not. Just because they sell it to us cheaper, doesn't necessarily mean they are making less as there may be some export credits or some other tax incentives that we may not be aware of. They may be making less, but maybe not by a lot. When I bought my 335i ED last fall, there was about a $3600 price difference on US cost versus ED cost per bmwconfig. Also, I could not take advantage of the USAA discounts at the time which would have narrowed that gap further. I also know that if one is Canadian, they don't get the cost savings at all.

Additionally, BMW and the dealer get their money, on average, two months sooner. We pay for the car as it is being made, not when it arrives on US shores at the dealership when we take possession. They know they have a sale. The dealer also does not bear the risk of having a car sit on his lot for several months waiting for the right buyer and paying bank interest floorplan charges. Taking an ED order involves a lot less risk and cost for a dealer and, if it doesn't come out of allocation, an extra sale. We also "lose" about two months of warranty as the clock starts when we take delivery in Germany and runs while the car is in transit. This lessens BMW's exposure.

Also remember that the deliveries at the Welt are not just for North Americans. The day we took ours, there were quite a few Europeans there taking deliveries on their cars as well. I would also speculate that the German and Bavarian governments also like the program as it brings a lot of tourist dollars into the Munich area.

As for the driving around Europe, I can understand why people do not want to drive too much. We drove ours in mostly rural areas and did not want to take it to the cities. Those of you who have visited Paris or Rome saw the scraped bumpers and how the locals park. I was really glad I had dropped mine off in Germany before that portion of the trip!

After the cost of the European vacation, we really didn't save any money after it was all said and done. For us it was more the experience of the Welt, touring the factory and driving on the autobahn which made the ED worthwhile. For that, I would do it again. 

At the end of the day, BMW doesn't do this because they are nice guys. They do it to publicize the brand and to sell more cars. If it didn't make economic sense they wouldn't do it. 

PS - Saw the comment about no ED for Jags. My first thought was how a bunch of North Americans would do driving their new left hand drive cars in a right hand drive country...it wouldn't be pretty


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

chrischeung said:


> So explain to me how it benefits dealers and manufacturers if all people do is pick up their cars and drop them off.


It amply fulfills the goal stated succintly on the BMW USA European Delivery site, just below the photograph of BMW Welt:

*"Meet your vehicle in the place it was made."*



chrischeung said:


> Why not reduce the selling price in the USA by a few hundred across the board and be done with it? Wouldn't that be a lot less work for the same number of sales?


Refer to the previous statement.


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## Popoemt (Aug 9, 2012)

You know how I found out about European Delivery? I saw BMW's driving around with a red/white european license plate behind the CA plates, made me say, "hmmmmm, whats that all about?" I'd guess others have found their liking to BMW ED the same way, can't ask for better advertising than the hundreds (maybe thousands) of ED cars rolling around with that rear or front ED plate still firmly attached, begging us all to ask, "How'd they get the car from Europe??".. 

Touche BMW, touche...:bigpimp:


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

It's all quite plain if you look into it - BMW and its dealers don't like being taken advantage of. There were a lot of folks taking deliveries of M5s via ED. It somehow struck a bit of a dischord with BMW. Their solution? Have M5s and some other cars come from allocation. Is it too far fetched for that policy to extend to all models? Or go to a fixed pricing model similar to Audi and Benz?


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

chrischeung said:


> It's all quite plain if you look into it - BMW and its dealers don't like being taken advantage of. There were a lot of folks taking deliveries of M5s via ED.


Customers using BMW's European Delivery program on the F10 M5 did not "take advantage" of BMW and its dealers in any way, in the context of improper actions on the part of such customers if that's what you implied. BMW of North America specifically indicated that model as being eligible for ED. Dealer allocation issues notwithstanding, it still does. Guidelines (pricing, logistics, etc.) for the ED program are clearly disseminated to customers who wish to participate in it.

The situation with ED is similar to the special offers, including vehicle price concessions, that are integral to BMW of North America's Corporate Fleet Program to cite one example.


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## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

Popoemt said:


> You know how I found out about European Delivery? I saw BMW's driving around with a red/white european license plate behind the CA plates, made me say, "hmmmmm, whats that all about?" I'd guess others have found their liking to BMW ED the same way, can't ask for better advertising than the hundreds (maybe thousands) of ED cars rolling around with that rear or front ED plate still firmly attached, begging us all to ask, "How'd they get the car from Europe??"..
> 
> Touche BMW, touche...:bigpimp:


I'm one of them! :hi:
My experience is different - coworker order Volvo with Over see delivery (Volvo slang for ED). Don't like Volvo - what can I say. :thumbdwn:
But that was start my researching.

We drove from Munich to Madrid - almost 1,900 mls - did a small bumper scratch in Milan.
Love BMW ED, big enthusiast of ED forum (this is my post #5000). Few my coworkers get BMW because of my stories. If my financial situation let me







- I will get new BMW only with ED.


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## EDF30 (Mar 3, 2012)

chrischeung said:


> It's all quite plain if you look into it - BMW and its dealers don't like being taken advantage of. There were a lot of folks taking deliveries of M5s via ED. It somehow struck a bit of a dischord with BMW. Their solution? Have M5s and some other cars come from allocation. Is it too far fetched for that policy to extend to all models? Or go to a fixed pricing model similar to Audi and Benz?


I seem to remember that you are the guy that promoted the european delivery lease rape of the century, a $100k 750 AH for $600 a month

:dunno:


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

EDF30 said:


> I seem to remember that you are the guy that promoted the european delivery lease rape of the century, a $100k 750 AH for $600 a month
> 
> :dunno:


To be clear, I do it with the view of this being beneficial to 'Festers and to BMW. It's my way of paying back to the community. I almost never bring up that thread unless others do so first. And did you ever see any complaint from BMW or anyone linked to BMW? These deals occur every year - just different models.

I'm also very supportive of BMW. Sure, the $600 a month is a headline grabber, but I pay much more for the trip and experience that wipe out most if not all of any ED savings. I also promote my experiences as much as my savings - if not more so. Check my signature - I link to my experiences rather than my deals. A lot of those involve BMW related activities.

What BMW is after is this - statements like "I will never buy another car any other way". I see that a lot with ED, or did in the past. And it doesn't allude to the savings - it alludes to the experiences. Picking up a car and driving it to the airport the next day really isn't that memorable. But effortlessly cruising at 100mph+, visiting the castles that inspired Disneyland, experiencing postcard scenery are.

A cheap price will sell 1 car - but the memory of a lifetime will sell many more.


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## BMW_F1 (Nov 6, 2009)

EDF30 said:


> I seem to remember that you are the guy that promoted the european delivery lease rape of the century, a $100k 750 AH for $600 a month
> 
> :dunno:


To be fair, BMW FS created that program knowing exactly what sort of deals would be possible. The issue here is using the BMW ED program in a manner that was not intended.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

gkr778 said:


> Customers using BMW's European Delivery program on the F10 M5 did not "take advantage" of BMW and its dealers in any way, in the context of improper actions on the part of such customers if that's what you implied.


That's not what I implied. Think about the spirit behind my words rather than just a few literal ones. Let me clarify.

BWM and/or it's dealers didn't like to see what happened, so they took action. That's all. I honestly think that if there wasn't the huge rush to get all those M5s on Day 1, or close to it, M5s would still not come out of allocation. I'm not faulting any specific buyers - heck, how could they know what BMW would do in future? And it's more the action of a collective than any individual. My point is, no one person, would be a specific influence to BMW. But as a collective, it may well be. In my experience, BMW does take action in most cases where it sees a collective move against what they see as their desired expectations.

My advice - if you want the savings, do a quick turn. If you worry that this will kill ED as it exists now - don't, there's probably 10 others who would do so tomorrow anyway. What each individual does won't really matter - it's not as though the manager of ED is saying "If I see 10 more people turning in a car the day after pick up, that's it - no more ED discount!".

It'll be interesting to see if this changes the ED program. Even going back just 5 years, I hardly recall anyone doing a day turnaround. It's definitely a lot more frequent now.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

BMW_F1 said:


> The issue here is using the BMW ED program in a manner that was not intended.


This is central to my educated conjecture. If the weighted average of the duration of "ED Tourist Deliveries" gets to a tipping point BMW AG/NA will change something...and it probably wont't be a change you're going to like. BMW won't allow a marketing program to become a back-door discount program if it alienates their dealer body.

I am not being judgmental at all; I shop for the best ED deals to know what the market is, but often pay a little more to ensure my dealer and CA are really happy as they take *great* care of me and my family. I'm doing my part to bump the average the other direction: we're planning a 40 day ED this summer with a M6 vert :thumbup:


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## mcwoods (Dec 18, 2007)

To echo a comment above, this really is a great thread - I've enjoyed reading it.

I'd been under the impression that the ED program was subsidized by the European Union in some form (whether directly or via tax credits or other machinations) in order to promote tourism and having those tourist dollars spread across the EU economy.

At some point, if people using ED don't end up spending more money than the subsidy, then the program would have to come into question. It's government, so you would expect it to have to get pretty blatant before it got challenged --- but the EU is in a severe monetary crisis and whatever happened with the F10 M5 deliveries must have hit the right emotional points to rock that boat. 

For myself, I found out about ED via this forum and used it to buy my first brand new car. We took 3-weeks to tour across Germany, France, and Belgium. If you're going to spend the kind of money it takes to own a brand new BMW, it is great to wrap an unforgettable experience around the purchase.


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

Bottom line of this entire thread is that is someone follows the current guidelines, and decides to purchase a BMW via ED to get the best deal possible and do a quick turnaround, nobody is harmed, hurt, cheated or shortchanged. Personal choice + private matter.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

mrjoed2 said:


> Bottom line of this entire thread is that is someone follows the current guidelines, and decides to purchase a BMW via ED to get the best deal possible and do a quick turnaround, nobody is harmed, hurt, cheated or shortchanged. Personal choice + private matter.


What you write is true but certainly is not the bottom line or the thrust of the thread. If _everyone_ does what you state the program as we know it won't exist. No one is suggesting people not do a quick turn; the discussion is an intellectual one proposing the program could be at risk if the quick turn trend continues or escalates.

By all means; fly in one morning, pick up your car, have it transported to Logi-in-Out and take the 15:30 pm flight out the same day- enjoy your time in Germany.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

mcwoods said:


> To echo a comment above, this really is a great thread - I've enjoyed reading it.
> 
> I'd been under the impression that the ED program was subsidized by the European Union in some form (whether directly or via tax credits or other machinations) in order to promote tourism and having those tourist dollars spread across the EU economy.
> 
> ...


That's not it at all.. The price is effectively the same as the Center Employee price (which is certainly not subsidized by the EU).
The ED price has all of the fluff cut out of it pure and simple. This thread is a good read nonetheless...


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## euromannn (Mar 25, 2013)

*Sales TAx*



paulg said:


> This may vary from state to state but in California if you bring it in state within 90 days of it hitting the US you WILL pay a state sales tax.
> For example - buy the car in Oregon which has no sales tax. Pick it up in Germany in April and in May it arrives in Oregon. The date it arives in Oregon is when CA starts to count towards their 90 day rule - not the date you "touched" it in Munich.


I'm in Washington state. If I bought a car in Oregon to re-license it in Washington which is mandatory I would have to pay sales tax no matter how long I waited.

Do you know of any successful methods used for Washington to avoid the sales tax on a new or used import BMW?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

euromannn said:


> I'm in Washington state. If I bought a car in Oregon to re-license it in Washington which is mandatory I would have to pay sales tax no matter how long I waited.
> 
> Do you know of any successful methods used for Washington to avoid the sales tax on a new or used import BMW?


If you think of it as USE TAX- and not 'sales' tax, it become clearer... it isnt where you buy it or where it is delivered to you.. indeed you pay use tax even on a used car when you bring it into the state in which it will be used.

The only thing I've heard of is registering the car to a corp that has it's legal headquarters outside of your state- then you pay tax based on the tax of the 'headquarters state'. Then the corp gives you permission to drive the car wherever you want. Since it isnt 'yours' you cannot be required to register when you live in the state. There is a thing called 'alaskan auto trust' that struck me a while back. Alaska charges no use tax. Anyway, prolly more useful for folks with many toys.... or really, really expensive ones!

Or pick up a car dealers license and dodge sales tax for your 'personal rolling inventory':angel:


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## euromannn (Mar 25, 2013)

ard said:


> If you think of it as USE TAX- and not 'sales' tax, it become clearer... it isnt where you buy it or where it is delivered to you.. indeed you pay use tax even on a used car when you bring it into the state in which it will be used.
> 
> The only thing I've heard of is registering the car to a corp that has it's legal headquarters outside of your state- then you pay tax based on the tax of the 'headquarters state'. Then the corp gives you permission to drive the car wherever you want. Since it isnt 'yours' you cannot be required to register when you live in the state. There is a thing called 'alaskan auto trust' that struck me a while back. Alaska charges no use tax. Anyway, prolly more useful for folks with many toys.... or really, really expensive ones!
> 
> Or pick up a car dealers license and dodge sales tax for your 'personal rolling inventory':angel:


I agree, the OP claim doesn't seem workable.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Jon Shafer said:


> I don't know if he's right, *but they nixed the M car program this year*.


In other words, ED for M cars _returned_ to the way they were.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

As I understand it, the ED savings come out of the dealer holdback that BMW pays based on dealer CSI scores (those survyes you get after you buy the car). Since BMW is delivering the car to you, they give you that money in the form of savings. So BMW is making the same amount either way-- I guess in some ways the money comes out of the dealers pocket (though thats mitigatd by the fact that EDs typically don't come out of dealer allocation). Regardless of whether people wnat to do "mass EDs" purely for savinsg it seemsl ike good PR for BMW to have a bunch of people taking M5 delivieries on the same day. That's a photo-op if i've ever heard of one.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

bmw325 said:


> Regardless of whether people wnat to do "mass EDs" purely for savinsg it seemsl ike *good PR for BMW to have a bunch of people taking M5 delivieries on the same day.* That's a photo-op if i've ever heard of one.


That is what I do not understand about this "BMW is looking closely to quicky deliveries and the M5 mass order". If anything, forums like this and mass orders like the M5 only benefit BMW and their European Delivery program awareness and how great it is.

Unless, of course, BMW really believes that calling rebates fancy names is better in selling cars at the dealers.

For sure, I'm not getting a BMW in any other way but ED. Either by doing a one-day pick up or several days of just driving. I do not think that the Welt is going anywhere soon or in the future.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

The biggest thing that helps ED, in my mind, is that it's a traditional program, and one that is offered by BMW's main competitors.

From a bottom and top line perspective, I think it's difficult to argue the benefits for BMW, for what essentially is almost a "pet" program. How would sales suffer if they cut the program? Would sales increase in China say, if they offered ED? I can imagine some bean counter coming in down the line and really questioning it. But hopefully the history of the program, competition, and perhaps some nostalgia will let it continue in similar form. Who know's, even it's relatively small size may save it. It may not be the big enough saving for the bean counters to really expend their efforts making changes. Better to drive down costs with suppliers and shared design.


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

Technic said:


> That is what I do not understand about this "BMW is looking closely to quicky deliveries and the M5 mass order". If anything, forums like this and mass orders like the M5 only benefit BMW and their European Delivery program awareness and how great it is.
> 
> Unless, of course, BMW really believes that calling rebates fancy names is better in selling cars at the dealers.
> 
> For sure, I'm not getting a BMW in any other way but ED. Either by doing a one-day pick up or several days of just driving. I do not think that the Welt is going anywhere soon or in the future.


BMW started ED as a means to promote German tourism. If the program turns out to be a quick in/out, without tourism, they will cancel the program. Yes, the Welt will be there...for European customers to pick up their cars, for which they pay a fee.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

The Other Tom said:


> BMW started ED as a means to promote German tourism. If the program turns out to be a quick in/out, without tourism, they will cancel the program.


Things evolve. I'm doubtful the benefits to German tourism are the same now as say 30 years ago. Now with borders coming down across Europe, you could argue that more money would go out of Germany for example. And ED may have evolved into more a BMW celebration than one of tourism. Does German tourism need a helping hand? How many flights exist these days to Germany from the US compared to the past?

Having said that, would something like the Internet neglect the need for a promotional program like ED? As an example, think about the traditional motor show - attendances have been in decline for years. How often do people go to those these days? So if BMW is able to capture a multimedia experience via the web, that is cheaper and can reach a wider audience more quicklly, that may be a threat to traditional channels like ED.


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## Bikie (May 2, 2004)

I do think they are interested in and possibly subsidized for promoting German/Bavarian tourism. On our last ED May 2012 Bernhard told us BMW Welt is now the most popular tourist attraction in Bavaria. Outshining the Castles and the Hofbraühaus. Too many quickie discount runs could kill the goose. IMO


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

I still don't understand the problem with a quick turnaround ED. BMW makes the same profit it would receive from a stateside delivery, Germany collects it royalties, taxes on each unit sold regardless of location of delivery. Why would BMW care how many days you spend in Europe after taking delivery? They are not the national tourism bureau. From another angle, folks like me who would only buy a BMW via ED due to the larger discount, if it did not exist I would likely not even consider the brand at this point in time.


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

mrjoed2 said:


> I still don't understand the problem with a quick turnaround ED. BMW makes the same profit it would receive from a stateside delivery, Germany collects it royalties, taxes on each unit sold regardless of location of delivery. Why would BMW care how many days you spend in Europe after taking delivery? They are not the national tourism bureau. From another angle, folks like me who would only buy a BMW via ED due to the larger discount, if it did not exist I would likely not even consider the brand at this point in time.


BMW sells an ED car for about 7% less than a car for US delivery. So they make less money.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

mrjoed2 said:


> I still don't understand the problem with a quick turnaround ED. BMW makes the same profit it would receive from a stateside delivery, Germany collects it royalties, taxes on each unit sold regardless of location of delivery. Why would BMW care how many days you spend in Europe after taking delivery? They are not the national tourism bureau. From another angle, folks like me who would only buy a BMW via ED due to the larger discount, if it did not exist I would likely not even consider the brand at this point in time.


You aren't the real customer, you're the end user. Your local dealers are BMW AG's largest customer and they hold a lot of sway with AG and NA. The US dealer's don't necessarily want a back door discount program for someone making a weekend trip to Munich. Ask Roger Penske what he thinks of BMW's ED program.

Not to be harsh, but BMW (AG, NA, local dealer) will sell the non-ED car you indicate you'd pass on to someone else - for more money.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

What would be really neat is if they could capture a lot of that Welt experience and through multimedia have that be at dealerships. So instead of sitting down in a waiting room with a coffee, you could be experiencing BMW in an interactive room. Rather than go to Munich say once every 3-5 years, you'd have people all around the world, in more personalized ways, experiencing your brand, more often. Partner with someone like Google to set it up.

Good for dealers, customers, BMW - wins all around.


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

The Other Tom said:


> BMW sells an ED car for about 7% less than a car for US delivery. So they make less money.


Where did that figure come from? Is that from US MSRP? I seriously doubt BMW is losing money on ED. And then let's talk about their profit margin on a 6 series.


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

dkreidel said:


> You aren't the real customer, you're the end user. Your local dealers are BMW AG's largest customer and they hold a lot of sway with AG and NA. The US dealer's don't necessarily want a back door discount program for someone making a weekend trip to Munich. Ask Roger Penske what he thinks of BMW's ED program.
> 
> Not to be harsh, but BMW (AG, NA, local dealer) will sell the non-ED car you indicate you'd pass on to someone else - for more money.


Of course the actual buyer is the "real" customer. Who do you think dealers end up selling cars to - themselves? And this does not answer the original question. The ED program exists, obviously for numerous reasons, PR, competition does it, ect. What difference does it make to BMW if a ED buyer stays 1 day or 10 days in Munich? Does not change the financial calculation one bit. You could argue, the ED discount sells more BMW's as buyers are more likely to be repeat customers. And disagree with your logic on the non ED car. If I don't order/buy it and purchase a competitor ( MB is my other choice) THEY LOST A SALE. Simple as that. There is not a infinite market especially for their high end cars. And BTW, I could care less what Penske thinks.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

mrjoed2 said:


> Where did that figure come from? Is that from US MSRP? I seriously doubt BMW is losing money on ED. And then let's talk about their profit margin on a 6 series.


~7% is the published delta from US MSRP to ED MSRP. Many ED deals are ~10% or more excluding NA marketing/finance incentives.Talk to one of the BMW dealer associations and see how they feel about the ED program.

No one said BMW AG is losing money and your point (??) on 6 series profitability is naive in consideration of development costs, tooling, spares support,training, etc over a very small number of units.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

mrjoed2 said:


> Of course the actual buyer is the "real" customer. Who do you think dealers end up selling cars to - themselves? And this does not answer the original question. The ED program exists, obviously for numerous reasons, PR, competition does it, ect. What difference does it make to BMW if a ED buyer stays 1 day or 10 days in Munich? Does not change the financial calculation one bit. You could argue, the ED discount sells more BMW's as buyers are more likely to be repeat customers. And disagree with your logic on the non ED car. If I don't order/buy it and purchase a competitor ( MB is my other choice) THEY LOST A SALE. Simple as that. There is not a infinite market especially for their high end cars. And BTW, I could care less what Penske thinks.


Enjoy your new MB


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

dkreidel said:


> ~7% is the published delta from US MSRP to ED MSRP. Many ED deals are ~10% or more excluding NA marketing/finance incentives.Talk to one of the BMW dealer associations and see how they feel about the ED program.
> 
> No one said BMW AG is losing money and your point (??) on 6 series profitability is naive in consideration of development costs, tooling, spares support,training, etc over a very small number of units.


And what's your point of referencing how the dealer association or Penske or anybody else feels about the ED program - IT EXISTS. And it is the only way I would consider purchasing a 650, best price available. Of course none of this answers the question of what harm is done by a quick turnaround ED pickup.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

While I'm sure there's some bavarian pride in promoting tourism that was never the main goal. It's pretty simple-if someone makes the effort to go to Germany to pick up the car, they are far more likely to form a "bond" with the brand that keeps them coming back. I'll admit the brainwashing worked on me. Though I'd bet the percentage increases when it comes to enthusiast oriented models. And that's something bmw should be very happy about. If we love our cars we tell 10 other people and they buy silver 328xi automatics off the lot.

Americans prefer instant gratification when it comes to cars. The % of people willing to do this regardless of the discount is never going to be significant. It's just way too much for most people to deal with. I bet even if bmw offered discounts for factory ordered us delivered cars most people would still prefer to buy off the lot.


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

bmw325 said:


> While I'm sure there's some bavarian pride in promoting tourism that was never the main goal. It's pretty simple-if someone makes the effort to go to Germany to pick up the car, they are far more likely to form a "bond" with the brand that keeps them coming back. I'll admit the brainwashing worked on me. Though I'd bet the percentage increases when it comes to enthusiast oriented models. And that's something bmw should be very happy about. If we love our cars we tell 10 other people and they buy silver 328xi automatics off the lot.
> 
> Americans prefer instant gratification when it comes to cars. The % of people willing to do this regardless of the discount is never going to be significant. It's just way too much for most people to deal with. I bet even if bmw offered discounts for factory ordered us delivered cars most people would still prefer to buy off the lot.


+1 absolutely


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

bmw325 said:


> Americans prefer instant gratification when it comes to cars. The % of people willing to do this regardless of the discount is never going to be significant. It's just way too much for most people to deal with.


I'm not so sure of that these days. How is Amazon able to be successful over Walmart and Bestbuy? BMW was trialing the pooling of cars in regions to be shared. I'd be interested to see how that turned out, and if there was any loss of sales with people having to wait a few more days for their cars. My point being, where there is a perceived benefit in waiting, either through better choice or pricing, Americans can be flexible.


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## mrjoed2 (Apr 6, 2012)

chrischeung said:


> I'm not so sure of that these days. How is Amazon able to be successful over Walmart and Bestbuy? BMW was trialing the pooling of cars in regions to be shared. I'd be interested to see how that turned out, and if there was any loss of sales with people having to wait a few more days for their cars. My point being, where there is a perceived benefit in waiting, either through better choice or pricing, Americans can be flexible.


Amazon does it by pricing and in most states no sales tax. I am glad to wait a few days for a item to not have to pay the state their pound of flesh.


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## northeast_3er (Feb 11, 2011)

Does anyone know whether the number of ED has gone up over the years...recently I think an article (JSpira maybe) was quoting approx 2,000 US customers pick up their cars via ED. Compare this to 281,000 BMWs sold for 2012. That is 0.7% vehicles being picked up in Europe.

Hope the program continues, I know I'll keep buying my cars this way


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