# 328d WIF sensor?



## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Does the 328D have a WIF(water in fuel) sensor? 

I am asking because the WIF sensor in my truck went off a day after getting fuel at an Exxon station where I usually get fuel. The fuel station also confirmed that others have already reported engine issues(I live in a small town). Here in my part of Texas during the winter, it is normal to get up to 80F in the day and 30F at night. That combined with the humidity in the air causes condensation issues if the fuel station tank filter and breathers are not maintained properly. 

Luckily, I use diesel fuel additive that has a demulsifier in it for my truck. My truck also has two fuel filters(in the engine bay and under the bed next to the tank) that came stock on the truck and both have a drain valve to bleed out any water in the fuel. Both are dual core 3 and 5 micron fuel/water separators while the rear is also an air separator. I just pulled over on the side of the road and let it drain in a bucket until only fuel came out. I don't think my 328d was effected because I filled up at another station last week, but I am just curious if it also has a WIF sensor?


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

alacey said:


> Does the 328D have a WIF(water in fuel) sensor?
> 
> I am asking because the WIF sensor in my truck went off a day after getting fuel at an Exxon station where I usually get fuel. The fuel station also confirmed that others have already reported engine issues(I live in a small town). Here in my part of Texas during the winter, it is normal to get up to 80F in the day and 30F at night. That combined with the humidity in the air causes condensation issues if the fuel station tank filter and breathers are not maintained properly.
> 
> Luckily, I use diesel fuel additive that has a demulsifier in it for my truck. My truck also has two fuel filters(in the engine bay and under the bed next to the tank) that came stock on the truck and both have a drain valve to bleed out any water in the fuel. Both are dual core 3 and 5 micron fuel/water separators while the rear is also an air separator. I just pulled over on the side of the road and let it drain in a bucket until only fuel came out. I don't think my 328d was effected because I filled up at another station last week, but I am just curious if it also has a WIF sensor?


AFAIK, the answer is no.


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## jck66 (Nov 28, 2017)

I don't see any mention of a water in fuel sensor in the N57TU documentation that I have. I realize that's the I6 engine but I would imagine the sensors and controls to be similar to the N47 I4.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Thanks to the both of you. I was hoping that it would have one for my piece of mind, but figured it didn't. 

I don't know how prevalent the CP4.1 pump failure issues are with the BMW diesels. Some say it is contamination, but in my opinion it is mainly due to the design of the pump and how the cam and roller are situated. The roller can easily lodge lose over time and spin sideways causing it to grind against the spining cam sending metal particles throughout the system. The CP3 pumps did not have a roller and instead had more reliable pistons that did not send metal throughout the whole system when(if) it failed.

I know they were an issue in the diesel truck world for GM and Ford owners(Cummins used the more reliable CP3). I work 40 miles way and this is my commuter car so I want it to last well past 200k(70k now) if possible. Looking at some of the 328d high mileage threads in a few of the forums, the CP4.1 seems like it will fail before I even get to that point and was wondering if replacing it at 120-150k be a worth while preventative maintenance measure. I would rather spend $1,000 to replace it than $7k to replace the whole system.


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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

One of my friends has taken apart a few different working CP4.1 pumps from N47/57s with 90k+ miles and the rollers have had zero wear on them. His position is that it's very much a fuel contamination issue and not a wear over time / "ticking time bomb" that a lot of people think. 

Some of the pumps he's looked at, that came from cars that had issues, clearly had fuel contamination issues. The roller and cam have been covered in rust, and the fuel lines/tanks had water in them (auction vehicle that sat out for a long while).

Bosch has continuously updated the design with different sized rollers and surface coatings throughout the lifetime of this pump.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

FaRKle! said:


> One of my friends has taken apart a few different working CP4.1 pumps from N47/57s with 90k+ miles and the rollers have had zero wear on them. His position is that it's very much a fuel contamination issue and not a wear over time / "ticking time bomb" that a lot of people think.
> 
> Some of the pumps he's looked at, that came from cars that had issues, clearly had fuel contamination issues. The roller and cam have been covered in rust, and the fuel lines/tanks had water in them (auction vehicle that sat out for a long while).
> 
> Bosch has continuously updated the design with different sized rollers and surface coatings throughout the lifetime of this pump.


This is an example of why I fuel up ONLY at high diesel turnover stations along major routes to avoid getting water contaminated fuel. I go where the big rigs go to fuel up along major routes. I have a Shell gas station 0.6 miles from home which has diesel but rarely gets truck traffic. It is a challenge for a tanker truck to squeeze in there to make a delivery and the station is always mobbed by gassers. I absolutely will NOT get diesel at this station even though it is less than 5 minutes from home. The diesel fuel may be OK but I won't take the risk. My favorite busy truck stop at I-93 Exit 5 in Londonderry NH 25 miles from home gets an entire tanker of diesel emptied there every day to keep up with diesel demand from the heavy truck traffic. I have no worries about getting water contaminated fuel at this station.

I also regularly use an additive with every tankful to take care of any water I can't avoid getting. My favorite additives are Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat and PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle).

Whenever one of my cars is going to sit parked for more than a couple of days, I park it with the tank fully topped off and additivised.

The bottom line is fuel quality is ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING when it comes to ensuring long life and reliable service from the HPFP and other fuel system components.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Does methanol diesel fuel additive do more, accomplish more than merely forming an emulsion of water in diesel? An emulsion of water in diesel will still enable rust corrosion. What beneficial change of physical properties is caused by addition of alcohol, usually methanol, to diesel fuel? What precisely is the drying of the fuel?


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

I don't use anything in my car (emulsifier or demulsifier) because of the different filtration system used. I use a additive with a demulsifier to separate the water in my truck because it not only has two water/fuel separators, but it also has two WIF sensors and drain valves on both units as well. Since it has to fill both fuel filters and both WIF sensors will trigger a "Water in Fuel" message on the gauge cluster, the chances of the water getting to the engine are just about slim to none unless I completely ignore both warnings and keep driving. Or if both sensors fail.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

FaRKle! said:


> One of my friends has taken apart a few different working CP4.1 pumps from N47/57s with 90k+ miles and the rollers have had zero wear on them. His position is that it's very much a fuel contamination issue and not a wear over time / "ticking time bomb" that a lot of people think.
> 
> Some of the pumps he's looked at, that came from cars that had issues, clearly had fuel contamination issues. The roller and cam have been covered in rust, and the fuel lines/tanks had water in them (auction vehicle that sat out for a long while).
> 
> Bosch has continuously updated the design with different sized rollers and surface coatings throughout the lifetime of this pump.


Just as with any mechanical part, all fuel pumps are going fail at some point even the reliable CP3. Heck, even the old P7100 pump that is touted as one of the most reliable diesel fuel pumps of all time ended up failing at around 450k on my old 12-valve Cummins. So it will happen sooner or later whether it is 150k miles or 250k miles.

The problem with the CP4 pump is because of its design, it fails in spectacular fashion sending metal fragments through the whole system. Most CP3 pumps and my old P7100 just lost pressure requiring just a replacement of the pump and nothing else. The norm for most CP4 failures in the truck world happened between 150k-200k miles. I am not sure what the average mileage was for TDI engines.

So far from what I have reading on multiple BMW forums, hardly any early 328d's made it past 200k without a CP4 failure. One got very close, but seemed to have one right before he hit 200k. There may be some that got past that, but I have not seen any. If you do find some, please post them because it will ease my mind.

This is why I plan on draining the tank and replacing the CP4 at around 150k. I would rather pay $1k for the peace of mind of not paying $7k later. But then again, that is another three years down the road based on how many miles I put on the car a year and I may just end up getting a diesel Jeep Wrangler by then.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

Doug Huffman said:


> Does methanol diesel fuel additive do more, accomplish more than merely forming an emulsion of water in diesel? An emulsion of water in diesel will still enable rust corrosion. What beneficial change of physical properties is caused by addition of alcohol, usually methanol, to diesel fuel? What precisely is the drying of the fuel?


Additives containing alcohol are to be avoided at all costs. Commercially available additives that advertise "for gasoline and diesel engines" likely contain alcohol. Run away from these products.

My two favorite additives (Howes and PS) do not contain any alcohols. Howes contains a demulsifier to help water drop out so the water separator can catch it. PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) contains a solubilizer to keep water dissolved so that it can pass through the system harmlessly. It is slugs of free water in diesel fuel that must be avoided at all costs. I'm on the fence regarding which of my two favorite additives would be the best to use all the time.

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## FaRKle! (Jun 18, 2016)

alacey said:


> So far from what I have reading on multiple BMW forums, hardly any early 328d's made it past 200k without a CP4 failure. One got very close, but seemed to have one right before he hit 200k. There may be some that got past that, but I have not seen any. If you do find some, please post them because it will ease my mind.


The real question though is what did the post-mortem say was the root cause of the failure of those HPFP. Did it look like it was due to the rollers wearing down over time, or accelerated wear due to fuel contaminants?

As I stated before, newer versions of the CP4 pumps got larger diameter rollers and improved/hardened coatings to reduce wear, so we may very well see LCI 328ds reach higher service lives than Pre-LCI (kind of like how the drive shaft vibration dampening was improved to reduce transfer case flange wear). I know that doesn't necessarily apply to your 2014, but there seems to be a common narrative spread about 328d HPFP and transfer cases being "ticking time bombs" which I don't believe data supports (and in the transfer case, case I know the data doesn't support that for LCI vehicles).


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

n1das said:


> My two favorite additives (Howes and PS) do not contain any alcohols. Howes contains a demulsifier to help water drop out so the water separator can catch it. PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) contains a solubilizer to keep water dissolved so that it can pass through the system harmlessly. It is slugs of free water in diesel fuel that must be avoided at all costs.


Thanks. I was not familiar with the term _demulsifier_. I went and read up and discovered that polyols are typical demulsifiers, which I was vaguely familiar with from the bits of polymer chemistry that I have had to learn recently. As usual, the -ol suffix indicates an 'alcoh*ol*' OH functional group on the end of the molecule. Also phen*ol*s are used as demulsifier. All are usually in solution with diesel, hexan*ol* or methan*ol*.

On to 'solubilizers' ... Solubilizers cause micelle formation at low surfactant concentration less than that to form an emulsion. We know micelles from the functional groups of soaps and detergent surfactants.

I think both products to which you refer aren't telling the whole truth. One contains 'alcohol' by other names, and the other makes a low concentration ***8216;emulsion***8217;.

My question remains. How is water enabling rust corrosion prevented? I agree that a water separation filter with an expanded PTFE teflon membrane is probably effective - as demonstrated in BMW's diesel fuel filters.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

FaRKle! said:


> The real question though is what did the post-mortem say was the root cause of the failure of those HPFP. Did it look like it was due to the rollers wearing down over time, or accelerated wear due to fuel contaminants?
> 
> As I stated before, newer versions of the CP4 pumps got larger diameter rollers and improved/hardened coatings to reduce wear, so we may very well see LCI 328ds reach higher service lives than Pre-LCI (kind of like how the drive shaft vibration dampening was improved to reduce transfer case flange wear). I know that doesn't necessarily apply to your 2014, but there seems to be a common narrative spread about 328d HPFP and transfer cases being "ticking time bombs" which I don't believe data supports (and in the transfer case, case I know the data doesn't support that for LCI vehicles).


True, but if most of the hundreds of thousands of CP4 pumped trucks can't make it past 200k and I haven't seen an early 328d make it past 200k without failure yet, then my chances are pretty slim whether the failure is due to contamination or not. It is just hard to believe that so many people put almost 200k miles on a vehicles with no contamination and then boom.

I don't have the data on many GM trucks other than a friends diesel shop, but I do have repair data on our 1500+ Ford fleet of trucks nationwide and repairs done at our 9 Ford truck dealers throughout the US. 200k is about average when they go boom. Like I said, whether this is due to contamination or just end of life failure I have no idea, but from the data I have seen I don't want to stick around to find out. I will either replace it before then to give me peace of mind or replace the vcar with another diesel.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

Looks like I will be keeping my 2014 535dx long enough to find out. The car is only at 135k miles and climbing. My 2012 X5 35d is only at 234k miles and climbing. Both cars are long term keepers and won't be for sale anytime soon.

I live in a cold area (NH) and fuel issues are common during the coldest part of the winter. I figure I must be doing something right to never have had a single fuel or HPFP issue during my 17 years and over 900k miles of diesel car ownership experience.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

Doug Huffman said:


> Thanks. I was not familiar with the term _demulsifier_. I went and read up and discovered that polyols are typical demulsifiers, which I was vaguely familiar with from the bits of polymer chemistry that I have had to learn recently. As usual, the -ol suffix indicates an 'alcoh*ol*' OH functional group on the end of the molecule. Also phen*ol*s are used as demulsifier. All are usually in solution with diesel, hexan*ol* or methan*ol*.
> 
> On to 'solubilizers' ... Solubilizers cause micelle formation at low surfactant concentration less than that to form an emulsion. We know micelles from the functional groups of soaps and detergent surfactants.
> 
> ...


My general strategy is to avoid getting water contaminated fuel in the first place and regularly use an additive to increase lubricity and take care of any water I can't avoid getting. The fuel at high diesel turnover stations along major routes is constantly being replaced, often daily. It is not uncommon for a busy truck stop along a major route to do more than $40k worth of diesel business in a single day. My favorite busy truck stop along the busy I-93 corridor in Londonderry NH gets an entire tanker of diesel emptied there every day to keep up with diesel demand from the heavy truck traffic and they maintain about a 3 day supply. The fuel at high turnover stations is usually not more than a couple of days old from when it was delivered. The fuel at a low turnover station that rarely gets any diesel business can be months old and have picked up a lot of water from condensation. This is why I strongly advocate going where the big rigs go to fuel up along major routes to avoid getting water contaminated fuel. Basically get your diesel fuel where everybody else does in your area. I've also had a few good conversations from truck drivers as they ask me about my BMW diesel. It has led to a few "random diesel bonding" moments at the diesel pump.

Should a high diesel turnover station along a major route ever have a problem with their fuel, it will be caught and corrected very quickly and before a lot of diesel vehicles get damaged. This reduces the risk of you getting a tankful of contaminated fuel.

The HPFP in common rail diesels are more susceptible to damage from free water in diesel fuel compared to older rotary injector pump diesels. Free water in diesel fuel will destroy the HPFP in common rail diesels in no time at all and absolutely must be avoided at ALL costs! :yikes:

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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

The station where I mostly get my fuel has a lot of diesel pickup truck traffic, but not a lot of heavy class 7-8 truck traffic. The closest station for that is 30 miles away. Living in South Texas, just about every man(and many woman) drive a truck and if that truck is a 3/4 or 1 ton then it is likely a diesel. Diesel trucks are everywhere in my town and there is a constant traffic of pickup trucks at the diesel stations so the fuel turnover rate is fairly high. After speaking with the manager, she believes the issue is with the fuel delivery company not changing the breather filter when they are suppose to according to the logbook. I guess I will be using Power Service additive to my usual fill up routine on my car as I do my truck.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) is my favorite of PowerService products. I do not use PowerService Diesel Kleen (silver bottle) because it doesn't have any anti-gel for winter use and doesn't do anything for water. The silver bottle PS DK is a summer only formula. I use the white bottle PS DFS year round.

My priorities for using an additive are #1 to take care of any water I can't avoid getting and #2 to increase lubricity. Providing anti-gel in winter and increasing Cetane levels are of secondary importance. Properly winterized fuel won't gel up at the coldest expected temps in a region but icing due to water can get you in trouble long before gelling will. People often mistake icing for gelling. They think they have gelling but actually have icing instead due to water. Avoiding water in diesel fuel particularly during the winter months in cold areas will prevent a lot of problems.



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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

n1das said:


> PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) is my favorite of PowerService products. I do not use PowerService Diesel Kleen (silver bottle) because it doesn't have any anti-gel for winter use and doesn't do anything for water. The silver bottle PS DK is a summer only formula. I use the white bottle PS DFS year round.
> 
> My priorities for using an additive are #1 to take care of any water I can't avoid getting and #2 to increase lubricity. Providing anti-gel in winter and increasing Cetane levels are of secondary importance. Properly winterized fuel won't gel up at the coldest expected temps in a region but icing due to water can get you in trouble long before gelling will. People often mistake icing for gelling. They think they have gelling but actually have icing instead due to water. Avoiding water in diesel fuel particularly during the winter months in cold areas will prevent a lot of problems.
> 
> Sent from my XP8800 using Tapatalk


I use the same and for the exact same reasons. Many people use the silver bottle around here during the summer, but I continue to use the white bottle because of how humid the air is in South Texas. Power Service is also the only additive endorsed by Cummins. I know there are many people who are against additives on this forum because BMW says it is not necessary. However, BMW's recommendation is probably based you filling up with perfect fuel with no water in it. BMW cannot control what kind of fuel you get and even the the top tier fuel stations can get water in their fuel if the conditions are right and/or the in ground tank breather/filters aren't maintained properly.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

BMW does NOT say it (additives) are not necessary.

The language is stronger and quite straight forward. * No diesel additives. Do not add additives, ... otherwise, engine damage may occur.*. (From my owners manual.)


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Doug Huffman said:


> BMW does NOT say it (additives) are not necessary.
> 
> The language is stronger and quite straight forward. * No diesel additives. Do not add additives, ... otherwise, engine damage may occur.*. (From my owners manual.)


True, but that damage is to the emissions equipment which I do not have. That is the reason why all of the truck engines(even Cummins) stopped endorsing or recommending additives once the DPF's and SCR's were added to their trucks. Even though they were good for the engine itself, some of these additive brands could damage these emissions devises and/or caused more emissions than allowed. So they had to stop endorsing them for a short period of time until it was confirmed that they did not harm the emissions equipment. The only one that I know of that has been put back on the endorsement list is Power Service and Ford's own branded fuel additive. Of course too much additives can also damage the engine as well so there is a big factor of the possibility of user error.


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