# Effective January 2016 - European Delivery discount reduced to 5%



## BMWofMorristown (Oct 27, 2009)

Starting with January 2016 production the ED discount will be reduced from 7% to 5%. This means the difference between Euro and US Delivery pricing will be 5%, whether looking at MSRP or invoice price. My suggestion to the community is get your delivery dates locked in so that your vehicle production starts before then!

Please note that the 5% discount is effective on all European Delivery vehicles with completed production dates after January 1st 2016 and beyond. BMW will not be offering price protection on order that are placed but start production after the 1st of January.

I still see a great value considering most people taking advantage of the program are already traveling to Europe. Plus the experience is ALWAYS enjoyable. I am certainly biased, but I think it is pretty amazing you save any amount of money by taking an ED. But again, more reason to act now!

--Mike


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## opfreak (Nov 10, 2009)

BMWofMorristown said:


> The ED discount will be at 5% starting with January 2016 production. My suggestion to the community is get your delivery dates locked in before then! --Mike


off of what price?


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Holy Smoke! :flame:


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

Oh, no, that's a shame... The ED MSRP has pretty much been 7% off forever, right? 

That 2% difference will reduce the typical ED discount by ~$700-$2000. Bummer.


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## ChicagoBigHouse (Sep 2, 2013)

Oh no. That's huge. Damn shame. Such a great program.


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## Lionnutz (Jul 24, 2014)

Can u clarify what if any effect this will have on the euro delivery INVOICE price?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

BMWofMorristown said:


> The ED discount will be at 5% starting with January 2016 production.--Mike


In other words, just change the 7% discount off of US base MSRP to 5% to arrive at base ED MSRP and everything else stays the same, including the way you calculate dealer invoice pricing?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

One other question I forgot to ask. Do you know of any pending enhancements to the European Delivery program that might be in the works effective with January 2016 production? 

I'm just wondering if maybe they're planning on offering more bang for your buck so to speak. Obviously they have changed this program several times over the years so I was wondering if maybe they plan to throw in more freebies?

BMW's pricing is always country-specific and varies greatly from one market to another based on competition. Just look at what they did this week in Australia. They announced huge cuts in the MSRP that amount to A$12,000-A$14,000 a car. Obviously that will force them to increase the trunk money on current inventory by that much over and above whatever they already had in place over there.


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## BMWofMorristown (Oct 27, 2009)

Ninong said:


> In other words, just change the 7% discount off of US base MSRP to 5% to arrive at base ED MSRP and everything else stays the same, including the way you calculate dealer invoice pricing?


The difference between Euro and US Delivery pricing will be 5%, whether looking at MSRP or invoice. This is as long as the new BMW completes its production in January of 2016 or later.

I still see a great value considering most people taking advantage of the program are already traveling to Europe. Plus the experience is ALWAYS enjoyable. I am certainly biased, but I think it is pretty amazing you save any amount of money by taking an ED. But again, more reason to act now! Octoberfest *coughcough* --Mike


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

So a deal made now for June delivery gets 5%? That reads a bit differently than your first post - "get your delivery dates locked in before then".


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## BMWofMorristown (Oct 27, 2009)

Gary J said:


> So a deal made now for June delivery gets 5%? That reads a bit differently than your first post - "get your delivery dates locked in before then".


Excuse me if I was not clear, but the 5% discount is effective on all European Delivery vehicles with completed production dates as of January 2016 and beyond. Make sense? --Mike


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

BMWofMorristown said:


> I still see a great value considering most people taking advantage of the program are already traveling to Europe. Plus the experience is ALWAYS enjoyable.


Without a doubt. Still a great value. Just not AS great of a value. Hard to spin what's effectively a price increase as a positive thing... for us anyway. Kind of sad that those of us who've done it (or will do it) pre-January 2016 will likely look back on this time as 'the golden age of ED.'

It'd be kind of interesting to know what motivated the decision to cut the discount... and whence the decision came (BMW AG? BMWNA?).


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

BMW announced an expected shortfall today because of slowing sales in China. This will not help either.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

I knew I ate too many sausages. :yumyum:


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## soledoc (Feb 5, 2007)

That stinks. But good for my wife because we are in the process of building one for a November 2015 deliver in Munich. So we should still get the 7% discount plus whatever else I can get them down to. My ED in April this year I got about 13% off US MSRP.


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## ChicagoBigHouse (Sep 2, 2013)

I think the issue is that those 2% points are big because most people aren't paying msrp for non M cars, and therefore the difference between 5 and 7% may be the difference between the local dealers discount and European delivery. Not to mention lower MF, no lost month with lease payments, waiting for your car to come over, etc.

I loved my ED as much as anyone but I also noted I can rent a car in Europe for 2 weeks and do a similar trip for not too much $$$. But then no Welt experience...


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## opfreak (Nov 10, 2009)

aardvark said:


> Without a doubt. Still a great value. Just not AS great of a value. Hard to spin what's effectively a price increase as a positive thing... for us anyway. Kind of sad that those of us who've done it (or will do it) pre-January 2016 will likely look back on this time as 'the golden age of ED.'
> 
> It'd be kind of interesting to know what motivated the decision to cut the discount... and whence the decision came (BMW AG? BMWNA?).


The US market has in effect seen a huge price increase this past year.

Last year the euro to dollar ratio was .72
This year the euro to dollar ratio is .91

on a $40,000 dollar purchase this year BMW is getting 7600 more Euros.


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## Steelers2103 (Jun 29, 2015)

I think your conversions are backwards. Using your numbers, BMW would be getting over $11K LESS this year, assuming that the $40K base price didn't change. Currently, 1 EU = 1.09 USD and last year it was 1.34 USD.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Thanks for posting this Mike, you saved me from being the bearer of bad news...

:-/


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## AlpsRider (May 28, 2015)

opfreak said:


> The US market has in effect seen a huge price increase this past year.
> 
> Last year the euro to dollar ratio was .72
> This year the euro to dollar ratio is .91
> ...


This is correct, our dollar buys more euros this year than it would have bought last year. Actually we have not had a price increase, rather they are getting windfall profit increase because of the exchange rate. I guess we could argue that they should pass the savings on to us, but it rarely happens like that...at least not in the short run. The positive side is that our prices here for new BMW's and many other cars are cheaper than most other countries in the world. My car build is $12,000. more expensive on the Swiss BMW configurator.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Technic said:


> That is my question as well.
> 
> I do not think that it matters for BMWAG if you drive the car 1000 miles in Europe or just 20 miles to the Munich airport. They are getting their money regardless if the dealer sold that car at MSRP or at invoice. :dunno:


*NA's customer is their dealers*, and there are more and more large entities (Penske, AutoNation, Sonic,...) that hold a lot of sway with NA. I'm not going delve into this in much more detail, but a proliferation of quick turns at reduced margin haven't gone un-noticed by NA or their customers.


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## Brian R. (Sep 5, 2002)

M FUNF said:


> I haven't checked, but I have not heard of any changes by MB, however Audi was not competitive before price wise. I find the whole experience of the MB ED more satisfying and some of the added opportunities can make it a much less expensive trip. (Alps Rallye Package)
> 
> Read Motor Trends comparo C63S and M4 BMW doesn't win for a change:thumbup:


From a trip / discount perspective, you'd definitely have to price out a competitive equivalent from Stuttgart. Glad I got in now before the bump.


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## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

dkreidel said:


> *NA's customer is their dealers*, and there are more and more large entities (Penske, AutoNation, Sonic,...) that hold a lot of sway with NA. I'm not going delve into this in much more detail, but a proliferation of quick turns at reduced margin haven't gone un-noticed by NA or their customers.


Seems to me the dealers are concerned about how much over invoice they get....not what the actual invoice is. Decreasing the Euro discount still means a proliferation of quick turns at reduced margin....NA would benefit though unless the discount is still really 7% and NA passes 2% to the dealers.


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## opfreak (Nov 10, 2009)

dkreidel said:


> *NA's customer is their dealers*, and there are more and more large entities (Penske, AutoNation, Sonic,...) that hold a lot of sway with NA. I'm not going delve into this in much more detail, but a proliferation of quick turns at reduced margin haven't gone un-noticed by NA or their customers.


what is a quick turn?


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

dkreidel said:


> *NA's customer is their dealers*, and there are more and more large entities (Penske, AutoNation, Sonic,...) that hold a lot of sway with NA. I'm not going delve into this in much more detail, but a proliferation of quick turns at reduced margin haven't gone un-noticed by NA or their customers.


I suspect that there's definitely something to that, as it seems like the big chain dealerships have generally been less enthusiastic about promoting ED as an option.... compared with some of our favorite 'mom-and-pop' dealers. And perhaps the big dealers are right that reducing the benefits of the program will improve their margins. Maybe instead of doing ED with the mom and pop dealer, a few buyers will do regular delivery at the big chain dealer. We'll see. My gut feeling, though, is that ED sales are still such a drop in the bucket compared with total sales that the overall effect will be negligible.

As for BMW AG, though, I suspect that the current program is actually GREAT for their margins. As we were discussing in one of the other threads a week or so ago, typical ED buyers (and I imagine that includes so-called 'turnaround' folks) seem much more likely to select M versions over non-M versions, -35i/-40i/-50i versions over -20i/-28i versions, coupes over sedans, etc. If neutering the benefits of ED causes a buyer to opt for the non-M version instead of the M, does BMW AG come out ahead? Obviously not.


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## OnYourLeft (Jan 4, 2015)

The Mercedes C63 / C63S are not even offered in their European Delivery program so that was a non-starter for me and a go for the M3.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

opfreak said:


> what is a quick turn?


A European Delivery order in which customer delivery of a vehicle at BMW Welt is followed by drop-off for shipment the same day.

As Technic mentioned, it makes no difference at all to BMW AG or BMW of NA whether the customer drives his or her ED car 1,600 km around Europe, or merely the distance from BMW Welt to MUC. In fact, for a fee of 75 Euro, BMW will happily accommodate customers who don't wish to drive their car at all immediately following their Welt delivery. In its European Delivery FAQ, BMW of NA states:



BMW of NA said:


> Q. Is there a minimum number of miles which must be driven before dropping the car off at a drop-off location?
> 
> A. No, the car can be driven throughout your journey or it can be driven directly to the drop-off location at the Munich Airport. If you do not wish to drive, customers have the option to leave their vehicle at BMW Welt for shipment to the U.S. There will be a fee of 75 Euro cash, payable to the BMW Welt; at this time, credit card payments are not accepted.


In no way whatsoever does a "quick turn" constitute abuse of BMW of NA's European Delivery program.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

dkreidel said:


> *NA's customer is their dealers*, and there are more and more large entities (Penske, AutoNation, Sonic,...) that hold a lot of sway with NA. I'm not going delve into this in much more detail, but a proliferation of quick turns at reduced margin haven't gone un-noticed by NA or their customers.


Although I heard the same "un-noticed" comment before, I'm still unclear on how a quick ED turn in is detrimental to _another_ dealer bottom line but to the selling dealer. I mean, ED is the perfect selling tool for any dealer... they do not have to purchase the car, much less stock it, no dealer preparation (or at least drastically reduced) and on top of all that, making a nice profit for a car that -again- is not at the their lot. It is as close as a factory direct order that it can be for these dealers.

If other dealers are "abusing" the ED by selling $xxx over invoice well... how that can be abused if BMWNA allows it? After all, the order has to go via BMWNA. BMWNA already increased the number of models for ED coming from dealer allocations, so again, if anything, whatever "sales damage" done stays at that dealer. And if I remember correctly, quite a few of those dealers and sales persons get BMWNA awards every year for exactly doing that -moving product, including a lot of ED.

I do understand some big chain dealers pushing BMWNA to behave like GM or Ford, though. And I bet that buying/leasing a BMW in those dealers will feel exactly like buying a GM or a Ford.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Technic said:


> Although I heard the same "un-noticed" comment before, I'm still unclear on how a quick ED turn in is detrimental to _another_ dealer bottom line but to the selling dealer.


This is just a guess on my part but I assume what is meant by that comment is that some dealers resent the fact that other dealers -- those with active Internet specialists -- are removing customers from the marketplace by offering them very low gross deals on ED cars that don't come out of their allocations. The quick turn around would be a customer who is talked into doing an ED simply as a way of competing on price vs. that customer's local dealership whose offer was much higher. The customer could catch a non-stop flight on a Friday evening and take Saturday delivery at the Welt. They could even pay the 75 euro charge to have the Welt take responsibility for getting the car to the airport. They could browse around the Welt and then take a return flight Saturday evening arriving back in the US on Sunday without missing a single day of work. If the ordering dealer is too far away (e.g., West Coast), they could take Performance Center delivery if that's within say 500 miles of their home.

This might be viewed by the complaining dealers, assuming there are any, in the same light as back when dealers were allowed to quote low prices on BMW extended warranties and sell them over the phone to out of the area customers without even physically seeing the car. Actually, physically seeing the car was an original requirement when BMW invented these things. Maybe some of the chain dealers -- AutoNation, Penske, Sonic, Hendrick -- are upset that out-of-the-area Internet specialists are pulling customers from their area by offering them very low prices on European Delivery? I have no idea if that's going on or not but some people on this forum seem to think it is.



> I mean, ED is the perfect selling tool for any dealer... they do not have to purchase the car, much less stock it, no dealer preparation (or at least drastically reduced) and on top of all that, making a nice profit for a car that -again- is not at the their lot. It is as close as a factory direct order that it can be for these dealers.


Maybe they don't like the ED deal grosses? Maybe they don't want to compete with themselves, not to mention out-of-the-area Internet specialists? You're pulling customers out of the available pool of potential BMW customers and you're probably not going to make as much profit on them as you would if they walked into your showroom and bought a car off the showroom floor. For one thing there would be no backend money from BMWNA.



> If other dealers are "abusing" the ED by selling $xxx over invoice well... how that can be abused if BMWNA allows it? After all, the order has to go via BMWNA.


What BMWNA can and cannot do when it comes to their unique relationship with American dealers is complicated by our laws, both federal and state. Just ask Elon Musk to explain it to you. 

BMWNA can't refuse to accept an order from a dealer if it's a legitimate order. They can't tell him, "Hey, you took this customer away from another dealer 300 miles away just by offering a ridiculously low ED deal." They definitely can't tell him what price he can charge for the car. That would be price fixing. That's why the Monroney sticker is called a Manufacturer's *Suggested* Retail Price. Look at all the dealers who sold i8's for $100,000 over MSRP. That didn't last long, did it? It always happens exactly like that except I've never seen a new BMW go for that much over MSRP before. The new 850i was going for $10,000-$20,000 over MSRP when it first came out and it ran the exact same course. The pack stickers came off after the first four or five months and all the guys with money to burn already had one.



> BMWNA already increased the number of models for ED coming from dealer allocations, so again, if anything, whatever "sales damage" done stays at that dealer.


The complaining dealers, if there are any, consider the damage being done to them is the loss of potential customers from their local pool of potential customers. As far as which ED cars come out of allocations, isn't it just all M cars plus new generation models for the first few months?

I guess we're getting off on a tangent from what started out as a simple announcement by a BMW salesperson that the ED discount will change from 7% to 5% effective with cars produced after Jan. 1, 2016. I asked him specifically if anything else had changed and he said no. Others have expressed doubt about that and suggested that BMW is somehow making other changes to the way the dealer's invoice is calculated on ED cars. Does anybody know this for a fact or is this just speculation? Just asking.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

opfreak said:


> The US market has in effect seen a huge price increase this past year.
> 
> Last year the euro to dollar ratio was .72
> This year the euro to dollar ratio is .91
> ...


How does the math work when you figure in X's that are made in South Carolina?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

chrischeung said:


> How does the math work when you figure in X's that are made in South Carolina?


In addition, the cost of hedging negates currency fluctuations. We could also mention BMW's other manufacturing facilities around the world and how their local currencies fluctuate against the euro.


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## opfreak (Nov 10, 2009)

chrischeung said:


> How does the math work when you figure in X's that are made in South Carolina?


It hurts, but given that we are talking about European delivery cars. Irrelevant.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

What's next? Make ED cars come out of regular allocation?

Without running the numbers, the 2% price increase may amplify monthly lease payments by around 5%, all other things being equal.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

I cautioned you guys about this some time ago - see post #19

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=745036


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

That is the question that started all this, IMO.

If the idea is to raise the ED MSRP because particular dealers are complaining, but the invoice stays the same then everything stays the same for those that offer ED invoice + $xxx and the customers.

So this idea of the "Empire Strikes Back" because of quick turn in (thus higher ED MSRP) makes no sense. Especially -and you posted it- BMWNA even includes that specific question in their ED details (no minimum driving mileage required).

That there is something else going on with some dealers, pricing, allocations and drama, that I believe.



Ninong said:


> The complaining dealers, if there are any, consider the damage being done to them is the loss of potential customers from their local pool of potential customers. As far as which ED cars come out of allocations, isn't it just all M cars plus new generation models for the first few months?
> 
> I guess we're getting off on a tangent from what started out as a simple announcement by a BMW salesperson that the ED discount will change from 7% to 5% effective with cars produced after Jan. 1, 2016. I asked him specifically if anything else had changed and he said no. Others have expressed doubt about that and suggested that BMW is somehow making other changes to the way the dealer's invoice is calculated on ED cars. *Does anybody know this for a fact or is this just speculation? * Just asking.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Personal Opinion for the entire commentary below.

Price Increase
- Increase profitabiliy for BMWNA. Offset some additional costs associated with Welt delivery when changed from Freimann. That nice delivery center did cost some money.

Future Changes
- ED out of regular dealer allocation
- Emphasis on driving packages (upsell opportunity)
- Experience packages (visits to BMW tracks, locations etc.)
- Some type of dealership CSI bonus for ED
- Reduction in enthusiast benefits (eg. BMWCCA rebate)
- Increased mass market incentives (eg. Drive for Team USA)
- Social media "flash type" incentives (drive immediate sales for specific models)
- Ride share type programs. Buy credits, borrow a BMW, use credits. Shorter lease type initiatives.

I've been here a few years, have done my share of EDs. I think most opinions on ED do have bias in them, things like "I'll never buy another car any other way", "I'll switch to Benz" etc. Many of these are driven by self interest, but when push comes to shove, people will work in their own best interests based on what is available at the time. I've seen a few backflips where people made threats, only to go back on them when given a carrot. I doubt someone would buy a Lexus just to spite BMW. They would do so because they want a Lexus. Or they were indifferent, and the Lexus offered a better deal at the time. So much for principle over money. 

One of the original premises, from decades ago, was to introduce people to BMW and the European experience. But now with travel becoming much more common, there is less of that need. And the BMW brand? It's everywhere now. Arguably, the savings that few get from doing ED, at the expense of the dealer and BMW, can be better used to fund larger marketing efforts - like Drive for Team USA. That gets more people into their cars, and converts them to BMW than ED. It probably also moves the sale forward that I'm sure dealerships love (that $1K rebate seems to work). ED has a longer sales cyle, and is dependent on selling a car, vacation planning etc. There's less of a guaranteed sale from ED.

BMW has moved from being more of a niche to a mass market brand - they need to appeal to a wide range of people, not just enthusiasts. BMW has enjoyed strong market share growth, but I don't see that reflected in BMWCCA membership increases for example. BMWCCA is more for the enthusiast (and those wanting that new car rebate).

And for the diehards who want to drive their cars on the autobahn? Drive their car on the Nurburgring? Folks like myself? Those people are usually willing to pay something for the privlege. They weren't in it (mostly) for the cost savings in the first place, since they usually spent much more for their vacations. Would an extra $1K to those people really make them not do it? At the worst, it would just make them buy locally, instead of doing ED. They would still end up buying a BMW.

At the end of the day, I think there will be a lot of hoopla on the message boards, it won't degrade BMW's brand, and they won't see any meaningful reduction in total sales. BMW and their dealers may even make a little more money out of it.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

The Other Tom said:


> Seems to me the dealers are concerned about how much over invoice they get....not what the actual invoice is. Decreasing the Euro discount still means a proliferation of quick turns at reduced margin....NA would benefit though unless the discount is still really 7% and NA passes 2% to the dealers.


Interesting thought - maybe they are going to start offering a 2% "holdback" to dealers on ED deals


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## skier (Oct 19, 2004)

chrischeung said:


> Personal Opinion for the entire commentary below.
> 
> And for the diehards who want to drive their cars on the autobahn? Drive their car on the Nurburgring? Folks like myself? Those people are usually willing to pay something for the privlege. They weren't in it (mostly) for the cost savings in the first place, since they usually spent much more for their vacations. Would an extra $1K to those people really make them not do it? At the worst, it would just make them buy locally, instead of doing ED. They would still end up buying a BMW.


Well said. I just came back from my 10th ED, 4 weeks in M3, 3,200 miles. While lower price on ED cars is nice, it's a small percentage of the whole picture and it's far from being the primary driver for me doing ED.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

skier said:


> Well said. I just came back from my 10th ED, 4 weeks in M3, 3,200 miles. While lower price on ED cars is nice, it's a small percentage of the whole picture and it's far from being the primary driver for me doing ED.


Exactly. I paid a _*premium *_to do ED on my 997 and 997 TT; Porsche has since removed the ED adder so ED price = US price.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

I just ran a quick calculation. The 2% invoice price increase equates to a 7% monthly lease payment increase for my current car, give or take. Given other fixed costs, increase overall in terms of cost of ownership probably around 5-7% for a lease.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> I cautioned you guys about this some time ago - see post #19
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=745036


Thanks! Your prediction from 18 months ago, especially the rationale behind BMWNA's concern, would explain everything. I am inclined to agree with everything you posted and if that is the basis for this change, then it would mean that the change in the ED discount from MSRP would be the only change.

Mike was very clear in the way he announced this change but some people were apparently unconvinced, which is why I asked him again specifically if the change to the MSRP discount was the only change and there would be no change to the way the dealer's invoice price was calculated.

Based on what you predicted back in January 2014, and especially after noting the last part of your opening line, it is apparent that this is a move by BMWNA to make ED pricing slightly less attractive compared to the ordinary delivery process. If anyone is still confused by this move, they should go back and read everything you said in your January 2014 post because that sounds to me like the most logical explanation.

European Delivery cars will be less of a bargain compared to regular delivery cars than they are now but the process of negotiating a deal remains the same, whether it is for European Delivery or regular delivery. The same Internet specialists who dominate the market will still offer better deals, provided BMWNA doesn't take steps to reduce that dealer's allocation by one for every car he sells outside his region. That would put a stop to it in a heartbeat.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

The question in reality is if the ED invoice price changed as well. 

If ED MSRP went up to 5% instead of 7% (of US MSRP) to just discourage "ED quick turns ins" then that is not enough deterrent to those dealers that sell "$xxx over ED invoice" because we are still talking about 12% discount in the best case, 10% in the worst case (ED invoice also went up 5% instead of 7% discount). If anything this move affects only those dealers that sell at ED MSRP. 

If the move is to put more money into dealers selling ED MSRP then ED invoice discount (7%) should not change so that 2% goes to the dealer. But if the ED invoice is also 5% now then technically there is no extra money going to the dealer. And still we are talking about 10% discount plus $xxx. That is still quite a lot of money to not dissuade the "quickers". 

There must be a lot of "quickers" out there for all this to happen because of them.


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

why would BMW cut the guts out of one of their most beloved programs. This is one of those thigns that sets it apart from Audi and Mercedes.


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

Sure, some folks do the no-discount (previously premium-priced) Porsche ED every year. And many, many folks will continue to do BMW ED even with a reduced discount. At the same time, though, I don't believe that Porsche's ED program is anywhere near as popular as BMW's. Let's face it. A lot of folks doing BMW ED like the idea of getting a 'good deal.' Maybe, in their own minds, they justify going for a higher-trim car by doing ED (e.g., perhaps they get the -35i version instead of the -28i because of the ED discount). Or maybe they justify the trip itself because of the ED discount. A guy earlier in the thread jokingly mentioned how much he could spend at Augustiner with $700-$2000, but there's seriously something to be said for that. Many times I've seen folks here make comments like, 'Well, we splurged a bit on hotels (or airfare or whatever) because we saved so much on the car.' Reduce the discount, and a lot of that rationalization evaporates. Also, keep in mind that even under the current program (which will soon be seen as 'the good ol' days'), we see complaints about the nuisance of re-delivery, hangups with VDC repairs, etc. With a smaller discount, perhaps some folks will decide that hassles are not worth it.

Nothing stays the same forever. In some ways, the current program is a throwback. It has its origins in a time when post-war West Germany needed tourism and dollars, and U.S. dealers were virtually all of the mom-and-pop variety. Maybe the program is anachronistic in world which the Penskes and AutoNations call the shots. Still, I do believe that there are lot of things about the current program that BMW AG likes and considers successful. I can't believe that AG will be happy to see fewer Americans doing ED (even if Penske and Autonation are). Of course, if there is a decline in participation, perhaps they will choose to sweeten the deal with hotel stays or other various perks.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

aardvark said:


> Of course, if there is a decline in participation, perhaps they will choose to sweeten the deal with hotel stays *or other various perks*.


BMWAG has a nice BMW Performance Center-like facility (Driving Academy) close to Munich. That would work. :bigpimp:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Ninong said:


> In other words, just change the 7% discount off of US base MSRP to 5% to arrive at base ED MSRP and everything else stays the same, including the way you calculate dealer invoice pricing?





Technic said:


> The question in reality is if the ED invoice price changed as well.


That question was answered by the OP at least twice now. The only thing that changed was the customer's discount from MSRP. Period.

The dealer's invoice is a percentage of MSRP, whether it is a regular car out of stock or a European Delivery. It's a percentage of MSRP. I still don't understand how this is confusing???

European Delivery base MSRP is not the same as regular delivery base MSRP. The _new and improved_ European Delivery base MSRP won't be as much of a reduction from regular base MSRP as it was previously but the dealer will still pay the same percentage of that MSRP just as he always has.

The dealer's invoice on a European Delivery car does not contain the MACO or training fees and its base MSRP is lower than that of a regular delivery car because it's discounted. Now it will be discounted by only 5% instead of 7%. Whatever the base MSRP is, just take 92% of it and that's the end of it. The MSRP of the options on a European Delivery car is the same as it is on a regular delivery car.

BMWNA is only changing the way they calculate the *base European Delivery MSRP*. That's all. That's what Mike posted at least twice now. The new base European Delivery MSRP will be only 5% lower than regular delivery MSRP instead of 7%. The dealer's invoice will still be the same percentage of that new base European Delivery MSRP, which, unfortunately, will now be higher than it was before.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

aardvark said:


> Reduce the discount, and a lot of that rationalization evaporates.


But why should that be at the expense of BMW?

You could alternatively argue that someone got a raise at work, bonus, or even saved money getting tickets with miles instead of purchasing to justify a new or better car. Heck, I could even say that I can drive a BMW since I save money not having to pay alimony and child support.

It would be pretty sad if the only way that BMW could sell a car was to discount it. Much like the old GM.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Ninong said:


> That question was answered by the OP at least twice now. The only thing that changed was the customer's discount from MSRP. Period.


That is not what was answered, but it is ok. I will ask my CA directly. :thumbup:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Technic said:


> ...there is no extra money going to the dealer.


Correct.

The OP, who started this thread, explained that very early on. The only change is to the way European Delivery base MSRP is calculated. Nothing else.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Ninong said:


> Correct.
> 
> The OP, who started this thread, explained that very early on. The only change is to the way European Delivery base MSRP is calculated. Nothing else.


So the ED invoice is also 5%-less of the US invoice. All changed, not only the ED MSRP. :eeps:


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

So, this would be my question. If you take MSRP number right now and mulitiply it by .93 for ED MSRP and then .92 for ED Invoice.... You're effectively saying that ED Invoice is .8556 of US MSRP. SO, the question is does the new equation become ED MSRP is .95 of US MSRP and ED INVOICE is still .8556 of US MSRP....or is it ED MSRP is .95 of US MSRP and ED Invoice is .874 of US MSRP....


When you get down to it....this is the only question that actually matters....

Are they going to charge the US dealer a larger percent on the Invoice of ED cars or not. Or are they just changing the publshed price to help out Dealers who don't want to play as nice and want bigger margins on ED?


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

Technic said:


> So the ED invoice is also 5%-less of the US invoice. All changed, not only the ED MSRP. :eeps:


That does not appear in anyway shape or form to be what he is saying....


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

look here is the deal, and this is where some folks confusion seems to lie.....


say you have US MSRP of 50,000.00

In the current scenario before any changes....

US MSRP 50,0000
*.93=
ED MSRP 46,500
*.92=
ED INVOICE 42,780

Effectively, a 85.56% of US MSRP is ED Invoice


Now we have a change and people are questioning a couple scenarios.

1 )

US MSRP 50,000
.95 =
ED MSRP 47,500
*.92 =
ED INVOICE 43,700

Effectively, a 87.4% of US MSRP is ED Invoice in this scenario

2) 

In this scenario they aren't changing the percentage relationship between US MSRP and ED Invoice, this would mean the 

US MSRP 50,000
ED MSRP 47,500
ED INVOICE 42,780

Effectively, a 85.56% of US MSRP is ED Invoice

3) which seems completely discredited, has some people panicking that not only are they changing the way they get to ED MSRP they are also adjusting the percentage base for ED INVOICE.

some are suggesting

US MSRP 50,000
*.95=
ED MSRP 47,500
*.95=
ED INVOICE 45,125

Effectively, a 90.25% of US MSRP is ED Invoice

This seems discredited because it's taking a huge bit out all at the same time....

My question is whether scenario #1 is the new way or scenario #2


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

chrischeung said:


> But why should that be at the expense of BMW?
> 
> You could alternatively argue that someone got a raise at work, bonus, or even saved money getting tickets with miles instead of purchasing to justify a new or better car. Heck, I could even say that I can drive a BMW since I save money not having to pay alimony and child support.
> 
> It would be pretty sad if the only way that BMW could sell a car was to discount it. Much like the old GM.


Never said that it's 'only way BMW can sell a car.' Even with zero discount (or even an added fee), BMW would do some EDs. Just as Porsche does (or did even with a premium charge).

At the same, though, the discount absolutely is a factor in the popularity of BMW's program. It's crazy to pretend that it's not when post after post in this forum are dedicated to discussions of getting '$xxx over invoice,' and 'good ED dealers' (i.e., dealers who deal on price).

I don't have any hard numbers, but if forum traffic on Audiworld's nearly moribund ED forum is any indication, BMW's program is significantly more popular than Audi's. Now, maybe some of that has to do with the fact that BMW's program is more established and Munich is more fun to visit than Ingolstadt or Neckarsulm. But a major part of it is the widespread perception that BMW offers a better deal.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

aardvark said:


> At the same, though, the discount absolutely is a factor in the popularity of BMW's program. It's crazy to pretend that it's not when post after post in this forum are dedicated to discussions of getting '$xxx over invoice,' and 'good ED dealers' (i.e., dealers who deal on price).
> 
> But a major part of it is the widespread perception that BMW offers a better deal.


What I'd really like is for BMW to relax allocations on all cars, and espcially on M cars. Even for US deliveries. Plus make delivery to any dealership possible for no added fee. And in the meantime, bring back transferability of the 4 year maintenance program, while reducing the lease acquisition fee to $295. A 5% bump in all residuals will also be nice. This will really drive popularity on Bimmerfest.

OK - now back to what I realistically think is or will happen.

Putting myself in BMW's shoes, if the clear reason a program is popular is because it's a better deal, in this case at the expense of dealers and BMW, then how is this a good program? Should it continue to operate as it does? Or should it be ammended?

To be fair, I think the current program is significantly skewed in the customer's favor than the dealership population in general when compared to a USA sale. The balance BMW could probably achieve is to wipe out the savings for the "quick turn" sale. I'm not sure if that is their end goal, but I could see that as being one consideration. The other of course is the loud dealership voice - which may even drive the price/value up beyond just discouraging "quick turn" sales. It may not be in the form of a pure price increase. But may also be in the form of a price increase, along with a free or discounted hotel/activities package option.

At the end of the day, I think BMW will continue to offer a a good overall program. We need to remember that they are generally pretty savvy marketers, and they have people who get paid to think about ED and other programs for a living. For us it's a hobby. For them it's a livelihood.

If I were on the fence about a new car in the next six months, I'd get one before the price hike. I now half regret not gettting a B7 instead of my 550i. But, I'm extremely thankful that the current program let me experience 8 EDs in 13 years.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

mwm1166 said:


> That does not appear in anyway shape or form to be what he is saying....


We are asking the same thing. My last answer was just to that member, not to the "official" answer, which is (again):



BMWofMorristown said:


> The difference between Euro and US Delivery pricing will be 5%, *whether looking at MSRP or invoice.*


The only percent that has been mentioned in there is 5% for ED MSRP *or* invoice.


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

Technic said:


> We are asking the same thing. My last answer was just to that member, not to the "official" answer, which is (again):
> 
> The only percent that has been mentioned in there is 5% for ED MSRP *or* invoice.


I think this follows my 87.4% of US MSRP model the more I think it thru. So, in total, lose about 1,000 of savings for every 50,000 of MSRP...

That's kind of a big swing, especially with restrictions on UDE and other things preventing you from using it with ED.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Technic said:


> So the ED invoice is also 5%-less of the US invoice. All changed, not only the ED MSRP. :eeps:


Let me try to explain it this way. The dealer's invoice on a European Delivery car is a percentage of the European Delivery MSRP on that car. If the ED base MSRP is only 95% of US base MSRP instead of the previous 93%, then it follows that the dealer's base ED invoice price will be a percentage of a higher figure than previously.

Since that's the only change, according to the guy who announced it, then the extra money stays in BMWNA's pocket. The goal, according to speculation by one member of this forum who appears to have high level inside connections, would be to make the price of European Delivery closer to the price of regular delivery, allegedly in response to pressure from certain powerful chain dealers who believe that low-gross ED deals being offered by certain dealers outside their area are taking potential customers away from their stores. Many members have reported that dealerships that are part of a national chain do not seem to be as enthusiastic about European Deliveries as other dealerships.



P.S. -- The European Delivery program today is not the same as it was originally, when it was sort of a joint effort by the German government, Lufthansa and BMW AG. The goal then was to lure rich Americans with their precious American dollars to Germany. The thinking was that those Americans would spend a week or two touring Germany, spending dollars and then return home and tell all their friends and relatives what a great place Germany is.

BMW has a new Chairman of the Management board. Maybe he's making some changes? Just a few days ago BMW of Australia announced that MSRP on its M3/4 models would be A$16,400 lower than the 2015 models. That puts them about A$15,000 below MB and A$8,000 below Audi. Sounds like a price war could be in the works over there.

BMWNA responds to "suggestions" from dealers but they also take orders from headquarters.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

BMWofMorristown said:


> The ED discount will be at 5% starting with January 2016 production. My suggestion to the community is get your delivery dates locked in so that production starts before then! --Mike


That's Mike's opening post.



Ninong said:


> In other words, just change the 7% discount off of US base MSRP to 5% to arrive at base ED MSRP *and everything else stays the same, including the way you calculate dealer invoice pricing*?


That's my question to him which I asked because some members seemed confused.



BMWofMorristown said:


> The difference between Euro and US Delivery pricing will be 5%, whether looking at MSRP or invoice. This is as long as the new BMW completes its production in January of 2016 or later. --Mike


That's his answer to me.

I still don't understand why some members are still confused. The only change was that the 7% discount will be 5%. "Everything else stays the same, *including the way you calculate dealer invoice pricing*."

P.S. -- In case anyone doesn't know how to calculate dealer invoice pricing for a European Delivery car: As of January 1, 2016 production, start with US base MSRP x 95% to get ED base MSRP. Multiply that by 92% to get dealer ED base invoice price. Take the total MSRP of all the options (same as US MSRP) and multiply that by 91%. Now add $995 destination and handling charge. That's your total dealer European Delivery invoice.


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

Ninong said:


> That's Mike's opening post.
> 
> That's my question to him which I asked because some members seemed confused.
> 
> ...


say you have US MSRP of 50,000.00

In the current scenario before any changes....

US MSRP 50,0000
*.93=
ED MSRP 46,500
*.92=
ED INVOICE 42,780

Effectively, a 85.56% of US MSRP is ED Invoice

Now we have a change and people are questioning a couple scenarios.

1 )

US MSRP 50,000
.95 =
ED MSRP 47,500
*.92 =
ED INVOICE 43,700

Effectively, a 87.4% of US MSRP is ED Invoice in this scenario

2)

In this scenario they aren't changing the percentage relationship between US MSRP and ED Invoice, this would mean the

US MSRP 50,000
ED MSRP 47,500
ED INVOICE 42,780

Effectively, a 85.56% of US MSRP is ED Invoice

So, you're saying scenario #1 here is the way things will shake out?


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Technic said:


> If anything, BMWNA does not allow any invoice pricing public publication, and I would guess, any public discussion of invoice pricing by dealers. Not that any dealer wants to do that either.
> 
> So I do not think that a dealer will answer this question in here.


Good point.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

phantom701 said:


> I wonder if Mercedes is also going to increase their MSRP by 2%. It's also listed as 7% discount today.
> http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/european_delivery_program


Mercedes and Audi are both still advertising a $795 lease acquisition fee, too. It will be interesting to see if they raise that to exactly $925 to match BMWFS.



> Granted the Mercedes program might not be as popular as the BMW program. That might be a result of the BMW community being a special bunch.


In addition, I think the attractiveness of the BMW Welt plays a big part in the popularity of BMW's Welt delivery program.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

phantom701 said:


> I wonder if Mercedes is also going to increase their MSRP by 2%. It's also listed as 7% discount today.
> http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/european_delivery_program
> 
> Granted the Mercedes program might not be as popular as the BMW program. That might be a result of the BMW community being a special bunch.


Benz is different. They strongly discourage discounting beyond the 7% MSRP ED discount. Some have done it, but it is often a only about and extra 1-2%. With BMW ED, you can get about 11-12% off US MSRP if you are savvy.

In addition, when buying a Benz, for a large selection of their cars, you can get ED or sometimes even better pricing buying off the lot (at least in markets like California). That is not the case for BMW.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

chrischeung said:


> Benz is different. They strongly discourage discounting beyond the 7% MSRP ED discount.


Some of the national chain dealers in the US take the same approach. The salesperson will tell you that the ED MSRP was already discounted and it will be the actual selling price with no additional discount.



> With BMW ED, you can get about 11-12% off US MSRP if you are savvy.


Especially if you are able to deal with Internet specialists out of your local market area. Isolated BMW dealers who don't have another dealership within 100 miles, or more, are not known for cutting prices.


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

Ninong said:


> _Your_ real question is "whether BMW is charging the dealer an increase of 2 percent on the ED invoice," in other words, changing the way they arrive at invoice prices. Your interpretation of "everything else stays the same" is different from mine. It's too bad that the OP hasn't returned to his thread to answer your questions. That could create the impression that he's hiding something. Or that he wishes he hadn't gotten into this in the first place. Or it could be that he's on vacation or something.


Guy,

if you use the same example we have been using. For the calculation for arriving at invoice pricing stays at 92% of ED MSRP, then effectively, BMW has raised the invoice price 2% to the dealer, from Dec 31 to Jan 1.

You will be able to see it because it will look like this on Dec 31

50,000 US MSRP

46,500 ED MSRP

42,7800 ED INVOICE

and on January 1 2016

50,000 US MSRP

47,5000 ED MSRP

43,700 ED INVOICE

If you cannot see how then this language of "everything else stays the same," when there is now a 2% raise on dealer invoice pricing from one day to the next then you're the densest man I've ever attempted to have a discussion with.

Because inherently, "not everything can stay the same" the percentage basis for calculating INVOICE on ED cars cannot stay the same and the invoice price stay the same at the same time. It is basic math!

One number is changing. And that means either BMW is raising prices for both their dealers on ED and their end customers. Or, they are just making a change to the advertising pricing externally while leaving the dealer prices alone.

BUT YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS AND FIT INTO YOUR FAIRYTALE OF 'EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME!!!!!!!!"


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

ok, I have confirmation. It is a 2% raise in Invoice price to the dealers as well. Meaning they aren't just raising the price of the ED sticker to US customers, but also the cost that they charge the dealer for ED cars will raise by that 2%.

What this does not mean is this. The way you figure invoice price on an ED car will not be US MSRP 8 .95 * .95. You will figure invoice by NINONG's method. Although this clearly demonstrates, not "everything else remained the same." As overnight the fixed cost to dealerships will raise by 2% between Dec 31 and Jan 1. 

Essentially, there is just less room for everyone on all sides of this deal to make an ED deal as sweet as it could be.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

*European Delivery pricing for 2016 production*



chrischeung said:


> Benz is different. They strongly discourage discounting beyond the 7% MSRP ED discount. Some have done it, but it is often a only about and extra 1-2%. With BMW ED, you can get about 11-12% off US MSRP if you are savvy.
> 
> In addition, when buying a Benz, for a large selection of their cars, you can get ED or sometimes even better pricing buying off the lot (at least in markets like California). That is not the case for BMW.


So true about Mercedes EDP. One more thing about Mercedes is that you can not ED any C class since all NA Spec c classes are built in Alabama.

BMW reducing the ED from 7% to 5% is better news than this http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/07/lexus-dealerships-ban-haggling-over-price.html


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## CalvinH (Apr 5, 2003)

mwm1166 said:


> ok, I have confirmation. It is a 2% raise in Invoice price to the dealers as well. Meaning they aren't just raising the price of the ED sticker to US customers, but also the cost that they charge the dealer for ED cars will raise by that 2%.
> 
> What this does not mean is this. The way you figure invoice price on an ED car will not be US MSRP 8 .95 * .95. You will figure invoice by NINONG's method. Although this clearly demonstrates, not "everything else remained the same." As overnight the fixed cost to dealerships will raise by 2% between Dec 31 and Jan 1.
> 
> Essentially, there is just less room for everyone on all sides of this deal to make an ED deal as sweet as it could be.


First point - buy now before the price increase and you get the best cash price.
If you have to wait here is what you'll see (using an EXAMPLE with a base price of $50,000):

__________US MSRP______US Invoice
Base Model: $50,000 *0.92= $46,000

ED pricing = 0.95* US pricing (for MSRP or Invoice as multiplication is commutative)

__________ED MSRP______ED Invoice
Base model: $47,500 *0.92= $43,700

Either way: Options invoice = List price *.91
Either way: Add $995 for destination charges

So other than discounting the US MSRP (or Invoice) by 5% instead of the current 7%, everything else remains the same. "Everything else" means discount from MSRP to Invoice for the base model remains 8%, discount from MSRP to Invoice for options remains 9%, and destination fee remains $995.

Happy to apologize if I've got it wrong, but it seems pretty simple to me.

btw, your post had the math at MSRP*.95*.95 to get to ED invoice and that would be wrong; it should be US MSRP *.95*.92 = ED invoice.


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## mwm1166 (Jul 16, 2013)

CalvinH said:


> First point - buy now before the price increase and you get the best cash price.
> If you have to wait here is what you'll see (using an EXAMPLE with a base price of $50,000):
> 
> __________US MSRP______US Invoice
> ...


reread my post....

"_*The way you figure invoice price on an ED car will not be US MSRP 8 .95 * .95. You will figure invoice by NINONG's method.*_"


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

phantom701 said:


> I
> 
> Granted the Mercedes program might not be as popular as the BMW program. That might be a result of the BMW community being a special bunch.


Last year the unit count of BMW and MB ED was within 11% of each other.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mwm1166 said:


> ok, I have confirmation. ... You will figure invoice by NINONG's method. Although this clearly demonstrates, not "everything else remained the same."


Remember that I asked the OP very early on if the change from 7% to 5% was the only change and that there would be no change to the way the dealer's invoice is calculated.

He confirmed that to me. I know what he meant. You read it differently. I failed to see how anyone could read it any way other than that the 7% to 5% was the only change. Period.

In other words, the way BMW calculates the dealer's invoice would remain the same, which is exactly what I asked him. It did. All manufacturers calculate the dealer's invoice as a percentage of MSRP. The MSRP changed but the way the dealer's invoice is calculated did not. It remained the same.


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## Brian R. (Sep 5, 2002)

I think with social media being what it is today the "brand ambassador" aspect of a good ED experience just doesn't carry as much weight with BMW moving forward. Time and time again I read here and elsewhere how people ask members about their ED and get all excited about the prospect of the brand and the experience. The downside of that is if it sours enough of the vocal few it could end up backfiring on the marketing side.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

We will know for sure in January 2016.



Ninong said:


> Remember that I asked the OP very early on if the change from 7% to 5% was the only change and that there would be no change to the way the dealer's invoice is calculated.
> 
> He confirmed that to me. I know what he meant. You read it differently. I failed to see how anyone could read it any way other than that the 7% to 5% was the only change. Period.
> 
> In other words, the way BMW calculates the dealer's invoice would remain the same, which is exactly what I asked him. It did. All manufacturers calculate the dealer's invoice as a percentage of MSRP. The MSRP changed but the way the dealer's invoice is calculated did not. It remained the same.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Brian R. said:


> I think with social media being what it is today the "brand ambassador" aspect of a good ED experience just doesn't carry as much weight with BMW moving forward. Time and time again I read here and elsewhere how people ask members about their ED and get all excited about the prospect of the brand and the experience. The downside of that is if it sours enough of the vocal few it could end up backfiring on the marketing side.


huh? Right, live in fear of something bad happening - I doubt anyone thinks that would be a good idea on how to run a program.


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## Brian R. (Sep 5, 2002)

Gary J said:


> huh? Right, live in fear of something bad happening - I doubt anyone thinks that would be a good idea on how to run a program.


Where did I say how to run a program? Just said that part of the discount incentive on BMW's side is to get people talking about the car, the experience, and the brand. It's been that way since day 1. I just inferred that by increasing the prices that BMW is devaluing the importance of it based on where we are today as a socially connected society. No need to get the word out when it's easy to find in 2.3 seconds on Google.

? :dunno: ?


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## opfreak (Nov 10, 2009)

Brian R. said:


> Where did I say how to run a program? Just said that part of the discount incentive on BMW's side is to get people talking about the car, the experience, and the brand. It's been that way since day 1. I just inferred that by increasing the prices that BMW is devaluing the importance of it based on where we are today as a socially connected society. No need to get the word out when it's easy to find in 2.3 seconds on Google.
> 
> ? :dunno: ?


If people don't know about ED, how can the search for it?

After getting back from my trip I've told tons of people, and have highly recommend it. Even at 5% off I'll speak highly of it.

But missing out on $$$ hurts. This change so far, has no benefit to the costumer.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

opfreak said:


> If people don't know about ED, how can the search for it?
> 
> After getting back from my trip I've told tons of people, and have highly recommend it.


Probably even on social media.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

opfreak said:


> If people don't know about ED, how can the search for it?
> 
> After getting back from my trip I've told tons of people, and have highly recommend it. Even at 5% off I'll speak highly of it.
> 
> But missing out on $$$ hurts. *This change so far, has no benefit to the costumer*.


Most changes that companies make don't.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Maybe some US dealers thought the price differential between ED delivery and regular dealership delivery was too great? Maybe those dealers encouraged BMWNA to adjust the European Delivery price to bring it closer to the regular price because those dealers prefer selling cars out of stock?

Just a possibility. After all, not all dealers encourage European Delivery. Those are the same dealers who will tell their salespeople that the European Delivery discount is the only discount available on ED deals. Those dealers are usually the ones who are the only game in town, meaning that they have no other local competition. A lot of dealers in the middle of the country are the only ones within 100 miles or more. It's mainly the large metropolitan areas, where BMW dealership are everywhere, that have fierce price competition.

Maybe some of those dealers noticed that they were losing deals to out-of-town Internet specialists who were offering extremely low-gross deals on European Delivery cars? So now, instead of just having to compete with the next BMW store that might be 120 miles away, they're now competing with some dude hundreds of miles away who's offering insane deals?


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## contactjj (Jul 29, 2011)

If European Invoice is increased too, this move is not targeting ED. It is the price increase in Europe in general. ED is just effected by it. So let's chill down and enjoy.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

*European Delivery pricing for 2016 production*



pharding said:


> That totally sucks. My lease is up in November 2016. If BMW doesn't appreciate my business, I'll just lease an Audi A7. It is better looking anyway. Audi makes fine cars also. BMW acts like they have a monopoly.


Yep- you will pay a much higher lease price for the a7 than even a 640 gc. Audi is in another league when it comes to lease prices unfortunately


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## Lionnutz (Jul 24, 2014)

pharding said:


> That totally sucks. My lease is up in November 2016. If BMW doesn't appreciate my business, I'll just lease an Audi A7. It is better looking anyway. Audi makes fine cars also. BMW acts like they have a monopoly.


Reached out to john at braman For a q5 ED and he said the 5% off for ED is set in stone by Audi. No further discount. At least with BMW there's still room beyond the advertised ED discount.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Lionnutz said:


> Reached out to john at braman For a q5 ED and he said the 5% off for ED is set in stone by Audi. No further discount. At least with BMW there's still room beyond the advertised ED discount.


I've done 2 Audi ED's - one 10% off MSRP and the other almost 9%. Required a lot of dickering.

There are a _*great*_ number of BMW dealers who won't move 1¢ off BMW's 7%


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

My CA is changing dealerships but said he could send a ED to the Internet "guy" at any dealer so it does not much matter where he is or where I want to pick it up. Not sure what he meant?


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## Lionnutz (Jul 24, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> I've done 2 Audi ED's - one 10% off MSRP and the other almost 9%. Required a lot of dickering.
> 
> There are a _*great*_ number of BMW dealers who won't move 1¢ off BMW's 7%


That's true too

How recent were your Audi EDs. Mind PMing who u dealt with and how u were able to come at a price u were happy with.


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

Gary J said:


> My CA is changing dealerships but said he could send a ED to the Internet "guy" at any dealer so it does not much matter where he is or where I want to pick it up. Not sure what he meant?


Sounds like he was talking about what they call a 'courtesy delivery' wherein you order from Dealer A but the car is delivered to Dealer B. It's definitely possible within BMW's ordering system. I think that their purchase order form has a special line for it.

However, some forum members who have attempted to arrange a courtesy delivery have encountered resistance in the form of (1) Dealer B refusing to go along with it; or (2) Dealer B wanting exorbitant fees (e.g., $1,000 and up).


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

aardvark said:


> Sounds like he was talking about what they call a 'courtesy delivery' wherein you order from Dealer A but the car is delivered to Dealer B. It's definitely possible within BMW's ordering system. I think that their purchase order form has a special line for it.
> 
> However, some forum members who have attempted to arrange a courtesy delivery have encountered resistance in the form of (1) Dealer B refusing to go along with it; or (2) Dealer B wanting exorbitant fees (e.g., $1,000 and up).


He is moving to a large New England dealer so any N. or S. Carolina dealer he could find to work with would be OK with me.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

aardvark said:


> However, some forum members who have attempted to arrange a courtesy delivery have encountered resistance in the form of (1) Dealer B refusing to go along with it; or (2) Dealer B wanting exorbitant fees (e.g., $1,000 and up).


If the dealer who is being asked to make the courtesy delivery suspects that you, you know, _stole_ one of his customers, he will be less likely to be cooperative. In other words, if the customer shopped that dealership but then bought from an out-of-town dealership to save money, the courtesy delivery may be more difficult to arrange. Even if the customer has never visited that dealership, some dealers may be less than enthusiastic about making courtesy deliveries to a customer who has lived in their area for a long time. On the other hand, if the customer placed the order in one area but then moved to another area before the car was shipped, that's usually automatic, but the courtesy delivery fee still has to be set by the dealer making the delivery.

Placing an order with an out-of-town dealer with the expectation that he will be able to arrange a courtesy delivery with your local dealer, whose prices you thought were less than competitive, may be more difficult than you imagined.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> He is moving to a large New England dealer so any N. or S. Carolina dealer he could find to work with would be OK with me.


When the salesman who placed the ED order moves to a different dealership the courtesy delivery should be easy to arrange at a reasonable fee because that's different than the usual situation.

P.S. -- As long as he doesn't try to have it delivered at a dealership where you have had a previous less-than-satisfactory experience trying to buy a car and they remember you.


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## Hound Passer (Feb 2, 2007)

With it being a well known secret that it's easy to buy an ED car at invoice + $500-1000 could BMW just be holding back the 2% for the dealers as a better incentive for them to promote ED? It seems dealers now either embrace or hate ED and negotiate accordingly.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Lionnutz said:


> That's true too
> 
> How recent were your Audi EDs. Mind PMing who u dealt with and how u were able to come at a price u were happy with.


7 and 5 years ago at Mission Viejo Audi in SoCal. The CA who did my two deals has since moved on.


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## Dallas550 (Jan 16, 2011)

Lionnutz said:


> Reached out to john at braman For a q5 ED and he said the 5% off for ED is set in stone by Audi. No further discount. At least with BMW there's still room beyond the advertised ED discount.


At least he got back to you. I'm still waiting on a return PM from earlier this year...

I've always heard there's room on Audi deals, but dealers that are willing to budge are few and far between.


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## Lionnutz (Jul 24, 2014)

Dallas550 said:


> At least he got back to you. I'm still waiting on a return PM from earlier this year...
> 
> I've always heard there's room on Audi deals, but dealers that are willing to budge are few and far between.


I sent him an email and he got back to me fairly quickly. In a matter of hours.

Wish there was a forum with info on ED for the other manufacturers like benz and Audi but there isn't


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## Dallas550 (Jan 16, 2011)

Lionnutz said:


> I sent him an email and he got back to me fairly quickly. In a matter of hours.
> 
> Wish there was a forum with info on ED for the other manufacturers like benz and Audi but there isn't


I got a return PM eventually but it was an "I'll get back to you" type message. I think that was back in March.

Agree 100% on another forum, the Audi ED forum is vacant. Usually 1 or 2 recent threads which are incredibly boring. Once in a while there's a cool trip report. I'd still be interested in a Q5 or Q7, but I would need to find a 10% dealership somewhere.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

dkreidel said:


> There are a _*great*_ number of BMW dealers who won't move 1¢ off BMW's 7%


Thankfully, most BMW dealerships in the Washington, D.C. and Baltimore region aren't among them. When I initially requested quotes for my 320i European Delivery order, six of the seven dealerships who received my request responded with offers of $600 to $1,000 above ED invoice. The seventh was flustered at the whole concept of European Delivery. :rofl:

This region is among the most prolific - if not #1 overall - in North America for sales of premium brand automobiles in general and BMWs in particular, so the competitive ED deals here make sense.


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

The new pricing will cost me an additional $45 per month in lease payments and taxes on a $75K BMW. I am trending towards getting an Audi A7 in November 2016 and just bagging BMW Euro Delivery. I was probably just mindlessly leasing BMW's every 3 years.


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## DDGator (Mar 4, 2013)

I always though the fact we get a discount, in additional to all the other ED perks, was just icing on the cake. The ED experience is amazing.

A couple thousand dollars on a lease isn't going to make me skip ED or jump to driving an Audi.


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## Snareman (Nov 24, 2006)

DDGator said:


> I always though the fact we get a discount, in additional to all the other ED perks, was just icing on the cake. The ED experience is amazing.
> 
> A couple thousand dollars on a lease isn't going to make me skip ED or jump to driving an Audi.


BUt as others have pointed out, that extra savings allows many people to go up a model from what they would have got stateside.


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## alewifebp (Sep 20, 2008)

Well the Audi ED discount is 5%, and you can't combine the 6% Audi CCA discount. With the way that Audi usually leases, I'd be surprised you'll be able to get an S7 (the equivalent of your 550) at anywhere near the same price. I'd gladly be shown proven wrong though.


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## mconley3 (Jun 24, 2015)

gkr778 said:


> Thankfully, most BMW dealerships in the Washington, D.C. and Baltimore region aren't among them. When I initially requested quotes for my 320i European Delivery order, six of the seven dealerships who received my request responded with offers of $600 to $1,000 above ED invoice. The seventh was flustered at the whole concept of European Delivery. :rofl:
> 
> This region is among the most prolific - if not #1 overall - in North America for sales of premium brand automobiles in general and BMWs in particular, so the competitive ED deals here make sense.


Glad to hear that, I'm going to start making contact in Nov/Dec. My closest dealer is on RT 40 near Ellicott City, it's called Catonsville BMW now. If you get a chance, PM me the list of dealers you used. Thanks, Mark


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Face128i said:


> That is what I figured, but wanted to be sure.
> 
> First page says _"The ED discount will be at 5% starting with January 2016 production. My suggestion to the community is get your *delivery dates locked in so that production starts* before then!"_
> 
> If I put an order in during the month of December, I have no control as to when BMW would produce the vehicle. They should clarify as to date of order or date of pickup and not a production date which the consumer has no control over.


It's "date of production." Period. 

If you order a car in December, or November, or October, for delivery next year, it's going to be produced next year. The very earliest you could schedule a European Delivery next year would be February 8, 2016 because that's the first day the Welt will resume European Deliveries following their shutdown for renovation. The factory won't be shut down. They'll produce your car in January if you're picking it up in early February. Usually your production date on a European Delivery car is 1-3 weeks before your scheduled delivery date.

If it just so happens that your car is produced in December, then you will get the 7% ED discount even if your delivery date is in 2016 but that's not likely to happen. It will probably be produced in 2016.


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## Steelers2103 (Jun 29, 2015)

I suggest that you ask your CA before simply taking someone's word on here. The CA I spoke with told me as long as it is ordered, with a price negotiated, that is what you get. It may very well be true that it will only be a 5% discount, but is it worth $1000 to not ask the question?


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

LogInOut at Munich do accepts drop offs on Sunday... you just need to do the paperwork previously on any business hour. Leave a key with them and just leave the car locked (obviously) at the LogInOut parking lot on that Sunday.



Ninong said:


> If you take delivery of a BMW on a Monday you're screwed because *the drop-off locations do not accept Sunday drop-offs* and that's the last day of your insurance coverage. *You would have to drop it off the previous Friday or Saturday morning at some locations, like the Munich airport. *So if you want as much time as possible on a BMW European Delivery, don't take delivery on a Monday. If you take delivery on a Tuesday, you can drop it off on a Monday two weeks later. One other difference between Mercedes on a European Delivery is that they waive the destination and handling charge. BMW charges $995 for that.


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## Lionnutz (Jul 24, 2014)

Technic said:


> LogInOut at Munich do accepts drop offs on Sunday... you just need to do the paperwork previously on any business hour. Leave a key with them and just leave the car locked (obviously) at the LogInOut parking lot on that Sunday.


+1 that is what I did for my ED last year.

The other option if it's loginout is u can pay the fee for them to come in on a Sunday or public holiday to do the paperwork and drop off.


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## Tanning machine (Feb 21, 2002)

AlpsRider said:


> I don't think that would work since they verify passports and require many signatures by the registered owner.


It would be the same as it is now - you pick up and tender the to the handler to do the drop off. Instead of them dropping it off immediately, they would park it for 5 days (or whatever).


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## Dave 20T (Apr 7, 2013)

eazy said:


> What wrong with Lexus. They only problem I have with them is that you can not do Japan delivery.


Lexus should at least have factory tours and have you meet your car after they build it.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

Dave 20T said:


> Lexus should at least have factory tours and have you meet your car after they build it.


That will not work because of logistics concerns


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## gekisai29 (Jan 13, 2007)

Steelers2103 said:


> I suggest that you ask your CA before simply taking someone's word on here. The CA I spoke with told me as long as it is ordered, with a price negotiated, that is what you get. It may very well be true that it will only be a 5% discount, but is it worth $1000 to not ask the question?


My CA told me on Tuesday anything delivered in 2016 will have the increase.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

gekisai29 said:


> . Most audi dealers i have consulted want a lot more paper work, most want the VAT deposit & are totally unfamiliar with & do not want to & discourage european delivery. ymmv


You are quoting very old information; Audi USA discontinued the VAT deposit requirement years ago. Further, I know of no one who had their VAT deposit check cashed when the program was in effect. I have never paid anywhere near 7% off US MSRP on Audi, BMW or MB ED's; all were double digit. Porsche - that's different 

If you have some first hand knowledge to contribute to this thread; great! It might be helpful, however, if you don't, to preface your comments with " I've never done an Audi or MB or xxx ED, but I think...."


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## Steelers2103 (Jun 29, 2015)

gekisai29 said:


> My CA told me on Tuesday anything delivered in 2016 will have the increase.


This contradicts the OP which said the increase is only for production that starts in 2016. By your CA's definition, a car that starts a build in Nov/Dec, but not delivered till Jan16 would have an increase. That is why I said get it in writing so that you know what you are paying and when delivery is scheduled.


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

Dallas550 said:


> So right now we are .93 and .92 to get euro invoice. Will the math just be .95 and .92? Still .91 for options?


Still a much better deal with a Euro delivery BMW than Porsche!

BMW dealer quoting 13% off US MSRP for a Euro delivery....

I am working with a Porsche dealer for a Macan S and they won't budge past 0.01% off ($500) from US MSRP!!!


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Steelers2103 said:


> This contradicts the OP which said the increase is only for production that starts in 2016. By your CA's definition, a car that starts a build in Nov/Dec, but not delivered till Jan16 would have an increase. That is why I said get it in writing so that you know what you are paying and when delivery is scheduled.


The OP is correct. It is definitely vehicles with a *production date* in 2016 and not based on the delivery date; *however*, since the Welt is closed to deliveries from Dec. 23, 2015 through Feb. 6, 2016, there is no reason to produce the car in 2015 for a delivery that can't be made until Feb. 8, 2016 at the earliest.

BMW should have no trouble producing a car in January 2016 for delivery in February 2016 but if the production date should somehow be 2015 for a car you took delivery of in 2016, you would get the 7% discount. The 5% discount is based strictly on production date and *not on delivery date*. That official memo from BMW has been photocopied and posted on another hobbyist forum.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

gekisai29 said:


> My CA told me on Tuesday anything delivered in 2016 will have the increase.


Your CA is assuming that anything deliveried in 2016 will have a production date in 2016 because it's the *production date* that counts, not the delivery date. I seriously doubt that any cars produced in 2015 will be delivered in 2016, especially since the Welt is closed to deliveries until after the first week in February, but you never know.

Now you can call your CA explain to him that it's the production date that counts, just in case he's confused on that matter.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

djsaad1 said:


> I just did a "quick turnaround" as in i didn't drive the car at all. And the reps there didn't blink an eye, didn't seemed liked they cared at all. I am doubting quick turnarounds are what caused this.


So called "quick turnarounds" are not the cause for BMW of NA's European Delivery pricing amendment.


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## mconley3 (Jun 24, 2015)

Does anyone know if there will be an updated Retail pricing guide issued? Be nice to see this in writing.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846460


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

mconley3 said:


> Does anyone know if there will be an updated Retail pricing guide issued? Be nice to see this in writing.
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846460


They will update the sheets just 1 or 2 days before the change. They're not going to push them out months in advance, that is just confusing. BMW just increased pricing starting October 1st for some models and the updated pricing sheets came out September 30th.

Tim


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## pastelartist (Oct 4, 2015)

We're thinking of ordering a BMW to pickup in April. Can we order it this Fall so we beat the January 2016 increase in price? I'm new to this forum so thanks in advance.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

As it says on Page 1 of this thread, no.


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

pastelartist said:


> We're thinking of ordering a BMW to pickup in April. Can we order it this Fall so we beat the January 2016 increase in price? I'm new to this forum so thanks in advance.


No. Production has to be done by the 1st of January.


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## pastelartist (Oct 4, 2015)

Thanks Gary and others for the info.


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## Kel (Mar 29, 2003)

May I please ask poster and others how is $500 discount "0.01%" Were they joking?

I am working with a Porsche dealer for a Macan S and they won't budge past 0.01% off ($500) from US MSRP!!!



Pat_X5 said:


> Still a much better deal with a Euro delivery BMW than Porsche!
> 
> BMW dealer quoting 13% off US MSRP for a Euro delivery....
> 
> I am working with a Porsche dealer for a Macan S and they won't budge past 0.01% off ($500) from US MSRP!!!


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Kel said:


> May I please ask poster and others how is $500 discount "0.01%" Were they joking?
> 
> I am working with a Porsche dealer for a Macan S and they won't budge past 0.01% off ($500) from US MSRP!!!


I saved $5,500 off US MSRP on my 997 TT - about 3-1/2%.Not a big discount but paid for our airfare and hotels for a week.


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## Pat_X5 (Aug 23, 2008)

Kel said:


> May I please ask poster and others how is $500 discount "0.01%" Were they joking?
> 
> I am working with a Porsche dealer for a Macan S and they won't budge past 0.01% off ($500) from US MSRP!!!


Oh yeah, don't expect much off a Porsche Macan. $500 is average off MSRP. I got $1000 offer off a custom ordered Macan but was turned off with the leasing numbers.

The Macan S was my first choice but when Riverside Porsche got snooty about not leasing - they said Porsches are intended to be owned - well I was shocked.... And for pricing - said how very few are produced and rare to find them which was a lie because I see them all the time in Southern California.... Macans are very new (2015 was first year model) and they are selling at MSRP.

Turned me off to the brand because of them....

And their leases are just awful - try $1000 per month on a Macan S lease moderately optioned....

I ended up with a Land Rover Discovery which I love better than the Macan.


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

Ninong said:


> Take the base US MSRP and multiply it by 95% to get the base ED MSRP. Multiply that ED MSRP by 92% to get base ED invoice. _*Add up the US MSRP of all of your options and multiply that by 91%.*_ Add those two numbers together and add $995 for destination and handling. That's your ED invoice.


Can anyone confirm that this is the correct way to configure costs when working up a deal? In this method, options seem discounted the same as they were when the "Official ED discount" was 7%. Thanks!


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mdsbuc said:


> Can anyone confirm that this is the correct way to configure costs when working up a deal? In this method, options seem discounted the same as they were when the "Official ED discount" was 7%. Thanks!


Sure, I can confirm it. 

Think of it this way. Options didn't receive a ED discount before and they still don't. It was only the base US MSRP that received a 7% discount and that has now been reduced to 5% effective with all cars with a production date after Dec. 31, 2015.


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## argh (May 25, 2015)

Note that the Base Price ED used to be about .931 of Base price USA, so using .95 might get you about $50 under invoice. I would think BMW will release an amended pricing guide soon. Also, every calculation of base price and options gets rounded up to the nearest 5.


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## GerWil (Dec 18, 2006)

Ninong said:


> Sure, I can confirm it.
> 
> Think of it this way. Options didn't receive a ED discount before and they still don't. It was only the base US MSRP that received a 7% discount and that has now been reduced to 5% effective with all cars with a production date after Dec. 31, 2015.


Is it certain that the spread between base ED MSRP and ED wholesale will remain the same; .92?
BTW the MSRP and wholesale price on options are readily available in Edmunds, as is the base wholesale; which is why I do not understand why the actual base ED wholesale is such a secret.


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

Ninong said:


> Sure, I can confirm it.
> 
> Think of it this way. Options didn't receive a ED discount before and they still don't. It was only the base US MSRP that received a 7% discount and that has now been reduced to 5% effective with all cars with a production date after Dec. 31, 2015.





argh said:


> Note that the Base Price ED used to be about .931 of Base price USA, so using .95 might get you about $50 under invoice. I would think BMW will release an amended pricing guide soon. Also, every calculation of base price and options gets rounded up to the nearest 5.


Thanks for the quick replies. I'm visiting the dealer tomorrow. :thumbup:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

GerWil said:


> Is it certain that the spread between base ED MSRP and ED wholesale will remain the same; .92?
> BTW the MSRP and wholesale price on options are readily available in Edmunds, as is the base wholesale; which is why I do not understand why the actual base ED wholesale is such a secret.


It's not such a secret. Sometimes new board members ask questions because they aren't familiar with BMW's pricing, that's all.

Yes, I believe Edmunds.com does have the correct prices but they sometimes aren't up to date on the most recent factory incentives. One thing Edmunds does show correctly is that they are adding that $500 charge that replaced MACO to the dealer's base invoice price. That charge does not apply to European Delivery deals but it does apply to regular cars delivered at the dealership. I'm still not sure if the $180 training fee went away or if it still has to be added and so far no client advisor has been willing to clear that up???

I have not heard of any recent changes to BMW's pricing policy other than the change from 7% to 5% for European Deliveries. So I think it's safe to assume that 92% of ED base MSRP will still give you base ED invoice and 91% of MSRP on the options still gives you the invoice on the options (there is no ED discount on options). Plus the $995 destination & handling. Obviously BMW has always rounded numbers here and there but you should end up within a few dollars of the correct total. Some customers are thrown off because they don't know about having to add that $500 charge to the dealer's invoice for regular cars (not ED). And then there's that little matter of the $180 training fee -- some people say you still add it and others think it went away??? It has never applied to ED anyway.


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## Me530 (Feb 17, 2005)

This coupled with the reduction in maintenance that was just announced has sufficiently annoyed me to the extent I just feel like complaining. W....T....F.


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

Me530 said:


> This coupled with the reduction in maintenance that was just announced has sufficiently annoyed me to the extent I just feel like complaining. W....T....F.


Hey "Me," I'm considering doing an ED with MB this year. Primarily because I'm looking for an SUV this time and BMW's only ED offering is the X1 for that. I'm lucky in that the SA that arranged our last ED order sells MB as well. We're taking a test drive today in the new GLC. Early reviews look pretty good. I understand your complaints and feel pretty much the same... :dunno:


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## pbjjj (Aug 2, 2015)

Me530 said:


> This coupled with the reduction in maintenance that was just announced has sufficiently annoyed me to the extent I just feel like complaining. W....T....F.


Haha! I feel the same!

I know when I shop for my next car a few years down the road, Audi and MB will seem much more appealing and competitive to BMW with all the changes BMW is making. I think BMW is trying to broaden its mass appeal, but in the process they probably will end up with offerings that feel much less exclusive comparing to other luxury brands. In addition, I have had more bad experience at BMW dealerships than at any other luxury brand dealerships. If BMW cars are not special to me anymore, I definitely will have no patience to put up with the aggravation that I get from BMW sales.


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## aardvark (Apr 15, 2002)

With all the horrendous publicity that Germany is getting these days in the American media, this discount cut really couldn't have worse timing. We only rarely hear stats related to the number of annual EDs, so we may never know the truth about this, but it wouldn't shock me if 2016 turns out to be an off year for the program.

Don't get me wrong. I love the program, loved Munich last summer, enjoyed the heck out of my car on the autobahn, etc. etc. BUT my gut feeling is that a fair number of the uninitiated are going to decide that maybe it's not worth it.


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## Me530 (Feb 17, 2005)

mdsbuc said:


> Hey "Me," I'm considering doing an ED with MB this year. Primarily because I'm looking for an SUV this time and BMW's only ED offering is the X1 for that. I'm lucky in that the SA that arranged our last ED order sells MB as well. We're taking a test drive today in the new GLC. Early reviews look pretty good. I understand your complaints and feel pretty much the same... :dunno:


Keep me posted on how it goes for you- and still please post your write up even if it is for MB!!


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## Me530 (Feb 17, 2005)

aardvark said:


> With all the horrendous publicity that Germany is getting these days in the American media, this discount cut really couldn't have worse timing. We only rarely hear stats related to the number of annual EDs, so we may never know the truth about this, but it wouldn't shock me if 2016 turns out to be an off year for the program.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I love the program, loved Munich last summer, enjoyed the heck out of my car on the autobahn, etc. etc. BUT my gut feeling is that a fair number of the uninitiated are going to decide that maybe it's not worth it.


I'm with you. ED-er's are probably the BIGGEST evangelists for the brand and I think BMW could afford to continue catering to us considering we've probably generated them some pretty big non-ED sales because of our experiences.

And honestly not to be non-PC but I'm genuinely starting to consider that there are some personal safety concerns when going to Germany / Europe to the extent I'm unsure what I'll do in 2017 when I am due for my next visit.


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## Me530 (Feb 17, 2005)

pbjjj said:


> If BMW cars are not special to me anymore, I definitely will have no patience to put up with the aggravation that I get from BMW sales.


I agree- but I have had some really good sales experiences (Josh and Adrian have treated me VERY well)...although once you visit the finance office it starts to feel no different from visiting the local Chevy finance office. And buying/leaseing a BMW should NOT feel like flying Spirit Airlines.


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

Me530 said:


> Keep me posted on how it goes for you- and still please post your write up even if it is for MB!!


Thanks Me. Today we fell for the GLC. It's beautiful inside and out. It was a no brainer for us. We've ordered one for a mid April delivery in Stuttgart. So, for us it will be a new brand and new delivery center experience that my wife and I are both looking forward to. 7% off MSRP + waiver of the $925. Destination charges, Taxi vouchers, one night in a luxury hotel, factory and museum tours, and... drum roll please.... a FULL tank of gas, it's not a bad deal.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Great but wrong forum.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mdsbuc said:


> Thanks Me. Today we fell for the GLC. It's beautiful inside and out. It was a no brainer for us. We've ordered one for a mid April delivery in Stuttgart. So, for us it will be a new brand and new delivery center experience that my wife and I are both looking forward too. 7% off MSRP + waiver of the $925. Destination charges, Taxi vouchers, one night in a luxury hotel, factory and museum tours, and... drum roll please.... a FULL tank of gas, it's not a bad deal.


One thing that's nice about their ED program is that they give you 15 days of insurance instead of just 14 and that's important if you want to take delivery on a Monday because it means you can turn your car in on a Monday two weeks later, which is the 15th day. With BMW, because of their 14 days, Monday is a bad day to take delivery if you want to keep it as long as possible because you can't drop off your car on a Sunday, the 14th day.

Of course MB has always based their 7% discount on the full MSRP instead of just the base model MSRP but many of their dealers refuse to give much of a discount over and above that. It depends on the individual dealership.

I was just wondering if you decided to purchase one of their prepaid maintenance plans? I see that they're offering exactly the same stuff as Porsche: 2 years/20,000 miles, 3 years/30,000 miles, 4 years/40,000 miles, etc. The MB website says to check with your MB dealer for final pricing on their new car maintenance plans.

Anyway, congrats on your new car even if it is not a BMW.


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## dpritchett (Sep 6, 2006)

me530 said:


> this coupled with the reduction in maintenance that was just announced has sufficiently annoyed me to the extent i just feel like complaining. W....t....f.


+1


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

Ninong said:


> One thing that's nice about their ED program is that they give you 15 days of insurance instead of just 14 and that's important if you want to take delivery on a Monday because it means you can turn your car in on a Monday two weeks later, which is the 15th day. With BMW, because of their 14 days, Monday is a bad day to take delivery if you want to keep it as long as possible because you can't drop off your car on a Sunday, the 14th day.
> 
> Of course MB has always based their 7% discount on the full MSRP instead of just the base model MSRP but many of their dealers refuse to give much of a discount over and above that. It depends on the individual dealership.


On some forums I've seen people claim to have found dealers who have sweetened the deal by another 3 percent. I used the same SA who sold me my current bimmer, and I didn't push the issue.



Ninong said:


> I was just wondering if you decided to purchase one of their prepaid maintenance plans? I see that they're offering exactly the same stuff as Porsche: 2 years/20,000 miles, 3 years/30,000 miles, 4 years/40,000 miles, etc. The MB website says to check with your MB dealer for final pricing on their new car maintenance plans.


I'm leasing for 3 years and took the 3 year plan. Yes, you can shop for bargains for that too, but this year I'm just not feeling like putting in the effort. It's $975. for the three year plan which seems reasonable enough to me.



Ninong said:


> Anyway, congrats on your new car even if it is not a BMW.


Ha ha, thanks. I love bimmers. They're wonderful cars and have treated me very well. But, they're not the only such cars, and for me it was time again for a change and a new experience. The fact that the only BMW SUV available for ED is the X1 also influenced my decision.


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## miata13 (Nov 22, 2007)

Me530 said:


> This coupled with the reduction in maintenance that was just announced has sufficiently annoyed me to the extent I just feel like complaining. W....T....F.


??? I must have missed something along the way. I caught the 7% to 5% ED discount change effective 1/1/2016 but what is the "reduction in maintenance" you're referring to? Thanks!


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## Me530 (Feb 17, 2005)

miata13 said:


> ??? I must have missed something along the way. I caught the 7% to 5% ED discount change effective 1/1/2016 but what is the "reduction in maintenance" you're referring to? Thanks!


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/announcement.php?a=116


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

duplicate


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

mdsbuc said:


> On some forums I've seen people claim to have found dealers who have sweetened the deal by another 3 percent. I used the same SA who sold me my current bimmer, and I didn't push the issue.


I guess you're talking about discount below ED MSRP after the 7% discount, right? If so, there are many, many dealers who will go a lot more than "another 3 percent," even some Mercedes dealers. 



> I'm leasing for 3 years and took the 3 year plan. Yes, you can shop for bargains for that too, but this year I'm just not feeling like putting in the effort. It's $975. for the three year plan which seems reasonable enough to me.


That's cheaper than what Porsche is showing for 3 years/30,000 miles. MB also offers 4 years/40,000 miles and 5 years/50,000 miles -- important for guys leasing if they expect to put 45,000 miles on their car.



> Ha ha, thanks. I love bimmers. They're wonderful cars and have treated me very well. But, they're not the only such cars, and for me it was time again for a change and a new experience. The fact that the only BMW SUV available for ED is the X1 also influenced my decision.


I drank the BMW Kool-Aid a long time ago, so I'm hopeless. I may not know what the current offerings from Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. drive like but I sure know what they used to drive like back when I was still working. Maybe they're better now? IMO they were _different_ from BMW in their own way. Mercedes had a nicer interior (even Jag had that) but it never handled the same -- just a different feel. And Lexus was always a mess in my opinion because it used to ride like what you might expect if Mercedes and Cadillac got married and had a child. Infiniti was never a serious competitor for a number of reasons. They once came out with a transmission on their Q45 that was guaranteed to fail before 45,000 miles! To each his own. It's always a personal decision.

In fact, buying a car is one of the most personal decisions a person can make, which is why the manufacturers have what seems on the surface to be weird advertising campaigns but they're always aimed at the buyer's perception of himself because that's what motivates most buyers until they get up in age. Do you remember all the weird extensive advertising put on by both Lexus and Infiniti for a full year before they were even introduced over here? And what about all the millions of dollars BMW spent advertising the i8 for months before it was introduced? That was not aimed at selling just the i8, it was aimed mostly at selling BMW's image.


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## alewifebp (Sep 20, 2008)

Ill most certainly check out the competition when my lease is up for renewal. My friend has a good connection at a MB dealer, so I know I can get a good deal. The new E Class looks nice, which is model I would be most interested in. While we all like to talk about how BMW has become soft, after having driven the current gen E Class, that car is a boat. And horribly styled inside and out. Time will tell. In my admittedly limited seat time in the new 7, I was impressed. If the new 5 becomes a lighter 7 with an increased level of tech and interior quality, I'll be sold. I'd love to get a Macan or Panamera, but take a look at how those lease. If you see a good Porsche deal, take a look at how much you have to put down to get those numbers.


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## John Casey (Nov 4, 2015)

Ninong said:


> I have not heard of any recent changes to BMW's pricing policy other than the change from 7% to 5% for European Deliveries.


I am being told that the ED MSRP to Invoice percentage has dropped to 93% (at least on my order). Anyone else finding this?


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

For the 328i, I was quoted ED MSRP of $35,715 and ED Invoice of $33,520, both exclusive of the $995 destination charge. By my calculator, that comes to 93.85%. That was maybe three weeks ago.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

colobrio said:


> For the 328i, I was quoted ED MSRP of $35,715 and ED Invoice of $33,520, both exclusive of the $995 destination charge. By my calculator, that comes to 93.85%. That was maybe three weeks ago.


Those numbers are incorrect. The reason they are incorrect is because effective with all European Delivery cars with a production date after December 31, 2015, the European Delivery discount was changed from 7% of base US MSRP to 5% of base US MSRP. The last day of production prior to the Christmas holidays shutdown was December 23, 2015.

According to the official BMWUSA.com website, the base US MSRP of the 2016 328i sedan is $38,350.00; therefore, the base ED MSRP of that model should be $36,435.00.

There is no discount on options, so the ED MSRP on options remains the same as the US MSRP on options. After you add up the total MSRP, don't forget to add $995.00 for the destination and handling fee. Now you have the official European Delivery MSRP of that model.

If you wish to calculate the European Delivery invoice price, you should take 92% of the base European Delivery MSRP plus 91% of the MSRP of the options and then add the $995.00 destination and handling charge. That is your European Delivery total invoice price.

Good luck!



P.S. -- Whoever gave you those numbers made a mistake.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

John Casey said:


> I am being told that the ED MSRP to Invoice percentage has dropped to 93% (at least on my order). Anyone else finding this?


Please see my response in post #309 for a detailed explanation of how to calculate European Delivery MSRP and European Delivery invoice prices.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

Ninong said:


> P.S. -- Whoever gave you those numbers made a mistake.


Actually, I suspect it was my bad assumption rather than the CA's mistake. He gave me a print out of MSRP, with invoice numbers handwritten on. The invoice number he gave me matches your formula within $2. I'm guessing he printed out 2015 MSRPs, since that's what was still in the system, but then hand wrote 2016 invoice. I just assumed it was all 2016.

In any event, thanks for correcting the bad info I'd put out there.:thumbup:


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

I tried to tell you guys change was in the air 2 years ago. There are only 339 BMW dealerships in the US; add up the number of dealerships the 5 biggest owners control and guess how much juice these corporations have with NA 

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8096722&postcount=19


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> I tried to tell you guys change was in the air 2 years ago. There are only 339 BMW dealerships in the US; add up the number of dealerships the 5 biggest owners control and guess how much juice these corporations have with NA
> 
> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8096722&postcount=19


Yes, you certainly did say something was under consideration. At least it was just a slight adjustment in the discount and not something more drastic. It's still an attractive program and something Canadians would love to have, since they have no discount at all. And Germans pay several hundred euro extra for the privilege of taking delivery at the Welt.

It's possible that the current Mercedes ED program may be a little better than BMW's program but that's only helpful for people thinking of buying a Mercedes. Of course, I'm assuming that the customer is a savvy buyer who knows not to deal with any dealer, BMW or Mercedes, who insists that there is no extra discount of European Delivery deals other than the one coming from the manufacturer.

As far as your comment in that post from two years ago about Penske and other large national chain dealers, they have built their empire by offering a generous price for existing dealerships. I have seen more than my fair share of family dealerships that ceased to exist as a family enterprise past the second generation unless they were able to expand to multiple franchises themselves to accommodate the members of the second generation.

What usually happens is that the dealer principal hangs on to the single location until he's up in his 70's or low 80's before passing ownership on to one or two of his children, who may themselves be up in their mid to late 50's by then. The problem comes in when there are three or four children and they can't agree on how to divide the wealth, so to speak, and it all comes apart entirely when you're talking about ten or more grandchildren demanding their fair share. In steps one of the chain dealers with an offer they can't refuse.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Ninong said:


> As far as your comment in that post from two years ago about Penske and other large national chain dealers, they have built their empire by offering a generous price for existing dealerships. I have seen more than my fair share of family dealerships that ceased to exist as a family enterprise past the second generation unless they were able to expand to multiple franchises themselves to accommodate the members of the second generation.
> 
> What usually happens is that the dealer principal hangs on to the single location until he's up in his 70's or low 80's before passing ownership on to one or two of his children, who may themselves be up in their mid to late 50's by then. The problem comes in when there are three or four children and they can't agree on how to divide the wealth, so to speak, and it all comes apart entirely when you're talking about ten or more grandchildren demanding their fair share. In steps one of the chain dealers with an offer they can't refuse.


Exactly right :thumbup:

Penske, Sonic and Autonation have a history of paying very high multiples for the dealerships they acquire, and the these large corporations are accustomed to realizing a superior ROI. From AutoNations Investor Relations:

AutoNation has sold over 10 million vehicles, the only auto retailer to achieve this milestone. AutoNation seeks to be the best-run,* most profitable automotive retailer in the nation.

* You can substitute Autonation for any business run by Penske, I assume Sonic is similar.

One doesn't become the most profitable retailer by leakage of high(er) margin business from not applying maximum influence on your sole supplier, and tightly manging your own customer base.

Remember, BMWNA's customers are their 339 dealers; not us. We need another ED car, and it really gets down to what we want to drive (Audi/BMW/MB) the next few years. The ED landscape is fairly flat.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

But do the benefits of the high volume national chain dealers also extend to the more savvy customer? Can they afford to give better deals to the better informed buyers because they are making it up on the other end with efficient marketing to less savvy walk ins?


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Gary J said:


> But do the benefits of the high volume national chain dealers also extend to the more savvy customer? Can they afford to give better deals to the better informed buyers because they are making it up on the other end with efficient marketing to less savvy walk ins?


They can - and sometimes will, but it sure isn't like negotiating with an independent! It seems the big conglomerates know how to circle the wagons and maintain high margins on every deal. If it's in their best interest to negotiate a deal you and I would like then they will do so. Otherwise, fuggedaboutit.

It's easier for the big corporations have NA change the rules to fit their needs than slug it out with us... one deal at a time.

At 5% official discount I predict less quick turn ED's that were motivated strictly by price than the intended purpose. The mass ED of the F10 M5's was a tipping point; some BIG dealers blew a gasket and had a Come to Jesus moment with NA. Before that point our ED cars flew mostly under the radar.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

I am beginning to think Indie for ED, conglomerates off the lot. I felt like I got a good deal from Adrian on a ED. On a X5 at a a Sonic dealer I said I sure wish you had these 3 packages in that color. He said give me 5 minutes, came back and said I have one in Tennessee I can have here tomorrow.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> They can - and sometimes will, but it sure isn't like negotiating with an independent! It seems the big conglomerates know how to circle the wagons and maintain high margins on every deal. If it's in their best interest to negotiate a deal you and I would like then they will do so. Otherwise, fuggedaboutit.
> 
> It's easier for the big corporations have NA change the rules to fit their needs than slug it out with us... one deal at a time.
> 
> At 5% official discount I predict less quick turn ED's that were motivated strictly by price than the intended purpose. The mass ED of the F10 M5's was a tipping point; some BIG dealers blew a gasket and had a Come to Jesus moment with NA. Before that point our ED cars flew mostly under the radar.


+1 on everything you said. 

That's exactly it. Locations operated by the big chain dealers, like AutoNation and Penske, have less flexibility in what they can do because they have fixed guidelines from headquarters on how they should conduct business, especially when it comes to used car marketing. I have heard that they are less enthusiastic about doing European Deliveries than most other stores. YMMV.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Gary J said:


> I am beginning to think Indie for ED, conglomerates off the lot. I felt like I got a good deal from Adrian on a ED. On a X5 at a a Sonic dealer I said I sure wish you had these 3 packages in that color. He said give me 5 minutes, came back and said I have one in Tennessee I can have here tomorrow.


I hadn't thought it about it in those terms, but since you clarified the point I agree 100%. The world is changing; there are occasionally some spectacular deals _from in stock cars_ at the big houses.

Our closest BMW dealer is Spokane WA (2 States over); I have a lot of latitude in dealer selection :rofl:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> Our closest BMW dealer is Spokane WA (2 States over); I have a lot of latitude in dealer selection :rofl:


You have a lot of longitude, too.


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## Brando384 (Apr 15, 2010)

Ninong said:


> Those numbers are incorrect. The reason they are incorrect is because effective with all European Delivery cars with a production date after December 31, 2015, the European Delivery discount was changed from 7% of base US MSRP to 5% of base US MSRP. The last day of production prior to the Christmas holidays shutdown was December 23, 2015.
> 
> According to the official BMWUSA.com website, the base US MSRP of the 2016 328i sedan is $38,350.00; therefore, the base ED MSRP of that model should be $36,435.00.
> 
> ...


That's not true--there is a discount on options. I've done three European Deliveries and always multiplied the US MSRP Option price times .91 to arrive at ED Invoice Option Price.


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## CalvinH (Apr 5, 2003)

Brando384 said:


> That's not true--there is a discount on options. I've done three European Deliveries and always multiplied the US MSRP Option price times .91 to arrive at ED Invoice Option Price.


I believe Ninong misspoke. Invoice price for options is indeed 91% of the MSRP (and you see that further down in his post). I think he meant to say there is no additional discount for ED options.


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## 1northcar (Mar 7, 2015)

CalvinH said:


> I believe Ninong misspoke. Invoice price for options is indeed 91% of the MSRP (and you see that further down in his post). I think he meant to say there is no additional discount for ED options.


I guess it depends how you read it. More a matter of interpretation. I understood Ninong's statement to be correct and consistent with what he said further down in his post. BMW USA does not offer a European Delivery discount for options, only the dealer does subject to being negotiated.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

dkreidel said:


> From AutoNations Investor Relations:
> 
> AutoNation has sold over 10 million vehicles, the only auto retailer to achieve this milestone. AutoNation seeks to be the best-run, *most profitable automotive retailer in the nation.*


"Most profitable retailer"? For new light vehicle sales? That goal is somewhat like "most pleasant case of pneumonia." :rofl:

In all seriousness, fixed ops, vehicle remarketing including pre-owned sales, and F&I are the segments of automotive retailing that will make the greatest contribution toward achieving AutoNation's goal. New vehicle sales are trifling in this regard.

I'll readily admit that AutoNation's size and nationwide presence are definitely a huge boon for its remarketing operations, and very likely for fixed ops and F&I as well.

I remain unconvinced that AutoNation, Penske, MileOne, or any other U.S. auto dealership group significantly influenced BMW of NA's recent amendments to its European Delivery Program.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Brando384 said:


> That's not true--there is a discount on options. I've done three European Deliveries and always multiplied the US MSRP Option price times .91 to arrive at ED Invoice Option Price.


That is *not* a discount. Please reread what I wrote and that you quoted me on. I explained how to calculate European Delivery invoice price. The *only* discount on European Delivery is the *5% discount off base US MSRP* to arrive at base ED MSRP. Everything else is *exactly the same* as it is on as regular dealer delivery, *except* for the fact that you do not pay the hidden charges that are applied against the dealer's invoice that replaced MACO and that new price as of January 2016 is apparently not exactly the same as it was last month -- it went up. In any event, don't worry about that because you don't pay it on a ED invoice.

You get a 5% discount of the base US MSRP and that is your *only* ED discount. You pay exactly the same on options as you would if you took delivery in the US. I assume you already know how to calculate the invoice on options, right? Because it's exactly the same in the US and if you pick it up in Munich. Invoice on options is 91% of options MSRP. Invoice on base MSRP is 92% of ED base MSRP or, for regular US delivery, 92% of base US MSRP. You pay the $995 destination and handling charge on both because that is never discounted on either one.

Please go back and reread what I posted because I did not misspeak and I was not incorrect.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dkreidel said:


> Remember, BMWNA's customers are their 339 dealers; not us. We need another ED car, and it really gets down to what we want to drive (Audi/BMW/MB) the next few years. The ED landscape is fairly flat.


I think everybody needs to consider all of the components that go into the cost of ownership, not just the selling price -- whether US delivery or European Delivery -- and one of those components is the cost of maintenance for their 36-months lease, since more than half of them lease nowadays. Even with BMW's announced cutback in its free maintenance program, it's still in line with some competitors (except for Jaguar's new program) and better than others.

If someone is looking into ED of a BMW, Mercedes or Audi, they should compare the cost of maintenance as well as the other costs. Some people forget about that.



P.S. -- Yes, the big national chain dealers are "competitive" when it comes to making offers for dealerships they think are either in trouble or considering a breakup due to pressures from family members who feel left out.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Can anyone definitely confirm that ED invoice is .92% of ED MSRP (which is .95% of US MSRP)?

ED Invoice = (Base US MSRP * .95) * .92) ?
and invoice for options is US MSRP *.91 (as before)


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## frank325 (Dec 29, 2005)

3ismagic# said:


> Can anyone definitely confirm that ED invoice is .92% of ED MSRP (which is .95% of US MSRP)?
> 
> ED Invoice = (Base US MSRP * .95) * .92) ?
> and invoice for options is US MSRP *.91 (as before)


Sounds like it is from this post.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

3ismagic# said:


> Can anyone definitely confirm that ED invoice is .92% of ED MSRP (which is .95% of US MSRP)?
> 
> ED Invoice = (Base US MSRP * .95) * .92) ?
> and invoice for options is US MSRP *.91 (as before)





frank325 said:


> Sounds like it is from this post.


I will try to double-check that once again. All I can say is that if they changed it from what I posted, then the change was very, very recent and not what showed up on December invoices of 2016 ED models. Obviously we know about the change from 7% to 5% for the ED discount off base MSRP but I think what some people are questioning is whether the dealer's cost is still 92% of ED base MSRP and 91% of MSRP on options. As far as I know it is and I would be shocked if that changed because they have never calculated that part differently from regular dealer deliveries but that's the question that has suddenly popped up.

Add the $995 dest & handling but not that $500 adder (replaced MACO) or the $180 training fee because those two do not apply to ED invoices.



P.S. -- Based on the exact invoice prices posted by four or five members of this forum, it appears that there is now a $475 adder to the dealer's base model ED invoice price. In other words, based on the exact numbers they have reported, it looks like 92% of ED base MSRP + $475. That's just the way it looks based on their exact numbers. We can only guess but that change was probably effective this year because it was not reported that way by forum members who took delivery last year.


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## 4Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

3ismagic# said:


> Can anyone definitely confirm that ED invoice is .92% of ED MSRP (which is .95% of US MSRP)?
> 
> ED Invoice = (Base US MSRP * .95) * .92) ?
> and invoice for options is US MSRP *.91 (as before)


I recently received a Vehicle Inquiry Report for an ED configuration I want to order. The ED MRSP was 95% of the US MRSP. The invoice (wholesale) was 93% of the ED MRSP. Looks like they may be squeezing out another percent from us poor BMW buyers. (tongue-in-cheek).


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## CliffJumper (Aug 24, 2008)

ninong said:


> that is *not* a discount. Please reread what i wrote and that you quoted me on. I explained how to calculate european delivery invoice price. The *only* discount on european delivery is the *5% discount off base us msrp* to arrive at base ed msrp. Everything else is *exactly the same* as it is on as regular dealer delivery, *except* for the fact that you do not pay the hidden charges that are applied against the dealer's invoice that replaced maco and that new price as of january 2016 is apparently not exactly the same as it was last month -- it went up. In any event, don't worry about that because you don't pay it on a ed invoice.
> 
> You get a 5% discount of the base us msrp and that is your *only* ed discount. You pay exactly the same on options as you would if you took delivery in the us. I assume you already know how to calculate the invoice on options, right? Because it's exactly the same in the us and if you pick it up in munich. Invoice on options is 91% of options msrp. Invoice on base msrp is 92% of ed base msrp or, for regular us delivery, 92% of base us msrp. You pay the $995 destination and handling charge on both because that is never discounted on either one.
> 
> Please go back and reread what i posted because i did not misspeak and i was not incorrect.


+1


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

4Fan said:


> I recently received a Vehicle Inquiry Report for an ED configuration I want to order. The ED MRSP was 95% of the US MRSP. The invoice (wholesale) was 93% of the ED MRSP. Looks like they may be squeezing out another percent from us poor BMW buyers. (tongue-in-cheek).


I also just received a VIR that showed ED wholesale at 93.3% of ED MSRP, which is different from the info I received from the same CA a month ago when I placed the deposit. I've asked him to clarify.


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## John Casey (Nov 4, 2015)

colobrio said:


> I also just received a VIR that showed ED wholesale at 93.3% of ED MSRP, which is different from the info I received from the same CA a month ago when I placed the deposit. I've asked him to clarify.


I asked this same thing back in post #307 and was told it is 92%. Reassuring to see others are getting the same ED invoice % that I am seeing.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

John Casey said:


> I asked this same thing back in post #307 and was told it is 92%. Reassuring to see others are getting the same ED invoice % that I am seeing.


I will try to find out if changes were made this year to the way the dealer's invoice is calculated on European Delivery cars compared to last year. I'm talking about something other than the change from 7% to 5% in the customer's discount on ED base MSRP.


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## shinobiprof (Dec 9, 2015)

*Same outcome on VIR pricing*

I just got a VIR from my CA for an ED M235xi coupe. Base wholesale price is quoted as about 93.08% of ED MSRP. This equates to the base invoice of the car being about $475 more than I was expecting using the (US MSRP * .92 * .95) calculation.

These may be stupid questions, but I'm going to ask anyway:
(1) Does "wholesale" mean the same thing as "invoice"? The pricing on the options remains as I would expect at (.91 * MSRP) so I am guessing so, but I wanted to double-check.

(2) As a general question about VIRs (since I have not seen one before), are they supposed to show all of the options that come standard on the vehicle as well as those selected by the buyer, or only those that the buyer specifies?

(3) I understand that there is a $1000 option allowance available. Does anyone know if this *requires* using BMW FS to finance? I have yet to get a concrete answer about this from my CA. :dunno:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

shinobiprof said:


> I just got a VIR from my CA for an ED M235xi coupe. Base wholesale price is quoted as about 93.08% of ED MSRP. This equates to the base invoice of the car being about $475 more than I was expecting using the (US MSRP * .92 * .95) calculation.


*Something did change* in the way they calculate the dealer's base model invoice price for ED cars. It appears that they are adding $475 to the dealer's base model ED invoice. I assume this was effective in Jan. 2016. I'm trying to find out exactly what happened but I know that it happened. 



> These may be stupid questions, but I'm going to ask anyway:
> (1) Does "wholesale" mean the same thing as "invoice"?


Yes.



> The pricing on the options remains as I would expect at (.91 * MSRP) so I am guessing so, but I wanted to double-check.


Yes, it appears that the options are still 91% of MSRP.



> (2) As a general question about VIRs (since I have not seen one before), are they supposed to show all of the options that come standard on the vehicle as well as those selected by the buyer, or only those that the buyer specifies?


I'm not current on what they look like but I would assume that they only show what you ordered, certainly not standard options.



> (3) I understand that there is a $1000 option allowance available. Does anyone know if this *requires* using BMW FS to finance? I have yet to get a concrete answer about this from my CA. :dunno:


The MY 2016 Option Allowance is also available for cash customers.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

John Casey said:


> I am being told that the ED MSRP to Invoice percentage has dropped to 93% (at least on my order). Anyone else finding this?


Apparently something did change in the way they calculate the dealer's base model ED invoice price. I believe the options are still 91% of MSRP but it appears to me that the dealer's base model ED invoice price is now 92% of MSRP + $475. At least that's what it looks like to me. I'm still trying to find out what they did.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

colobrio said:


> For the 328i, I was quoted ED MSRP of $35,715 and ED Invoice of $33,520, both exclusive of the $995 destination charge. By my calculator, that comes to 93.85%. That was maybe three weeks ago.


Apparently something did change for this year compared to last year for ED base invoice prices. It appears that options are still 91% of MSRP but I think dealer's base model ED invoice price is now 92% of MSRP + $475. At least that what it looks like.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

3ismagic# said:


> Can anyone definitely confirm that ED invoice is .92% of ED MSRP (which is .95% of US MSRP)?
> 
> ED Invoice = (Base US MSRP * .95) * .92) ?
> and invoice for options is US MSRP *.91 (as before)


*It changed!* It probably changed in January 2016. The options are definitely still 91% of MSRP. It appears to me like the base invoice is now 92% of MSRP + $475. At least that's what it looks like. That's all I know right now.



frank325 said:


> Sounds like it is from this post.


It changed. Probably effective Jan. 2016.



4Fan said:


> I recently received a Vehicle Inquiry Report for an ED configuration I want to order. The ED MRSP was 95% of the US MRSP. The invoice (wholesale) was 93% of the ED MRSP. Looks like they may be squeezing out another percent from us poor BMW buyers. (tongue-in-cheek).


Look at it again. The options are probably 91% of MSRP. The base model invoice is probably 92% of MSRP + $475. At least that's what it looks like to me.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

The original BMW document stated that the new 5% applied to both ED MSRP _and_ wholesale. So if this changed in January then it was for the better (wholesale).


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Hound Passer said:


> Just b/c some might not being crying or up in arms over it doesn't make them "apologists." But also none of us are entitled to a good ED discount, we are just so use to it we feel entitled. Whether the increase accomplishes what BMW intended, who can say? We don't really know why they made this sudden move.
> 
> Let's also examine the flip side. When the Euro was worth 30-50% more than the U.S. dollar I didn't see anyone angry that BMW wasn't adjusting prices to the upside then to compensate for a weak dollar. I've been buying BMWs for 20 years. Their price increases in that time seem to be pretty even and ignore wild swings in currency.


*"None of us are entitled to a good ED discount..."* I think that's a very realistic approach. *"...we are just so used to it we feel entitled."* That's an accurate description of the attitude of some BMW enthusiasts who frequent hobby forums like this one.

Someone is fortunate enough to get a very low-gross deal from a dealer who, for whatever reason, was in a position to accept that deal and then he immediately brags about it on the forum. No one posts above an average deal or a deal that he knows was not as good as what others say they got. People only brag about their great negotiation skills. Then everyone reading that expects the exact same sort of deal from his dealer, or every dealer he spams with his email request for a price quote.

Competition is the American way. It's what drives prices down, benefiting the buying public. Price-fixing is not only un-American, it's against the law. BMW cannot tell the dealer what price he must set on their cars; that's up to the dealer. That's why you see all those disclaimers in virtually everything BMW advertises telling you that dealer participation may affect prices. We still pay less for a new BMW in the US than in any other country in the world. In many countries the cost is more than double what we pay.

If a particular model is in short supply, would you expect the dealer to practically give it away if he can sell it to another customer for much more profit? I guess the most extreme example of that was the recent introduction of the new i8? I can't even begin to wrap my head around why anyone would pay $50,000 - $100,000 over MSRP for a car when they had to know that it would drop down to below MSRP after initial demand had been satisfied. Whether that takes four months, eight months or a year depends on how many buyers there are who are willing to pay $50,000 - $100,000 over. There was a thread on this forum at the time started by a customer asking for help in finding an i8 who was thrilled to locate one and negotiate a deal at only $30,000 over MSRP.

When the M5 first came out, it sold for MSRP for maybe the first year only because it was a limited first run but after that it was discounted. When the M3 first came out, it sold for MSRP for maybe the first eight months. When the 850i first came out, it sold for $10,000-$20,000 over MSRP for the first four or five months and then dropped down to below MSRP.

When the Z3 first came out it sold for $2,000 over MSRP for the first six to eight months and then dropped down to MSRP or below. The problem with the Z3, depending on your point of view, was that people would see that James Bond movie that introduced it and then all of them would flock over to the nearest BMW dealership wanting to test drive one. What they may not have known was that most dealers had already pre-sold their first six to eight months of allocation at prices above MSRP.

The dealer doesn't set the prices, the customers do, and that's the American way of doing business! Don't get upset with the salesperson if he can't meet your price demands; get upset with all those other buyers who paid more than you would like to pay.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

Hound Passer said:


> none of us are entitled to a good ED discount


Of course not, but the way BMW handled this, at least in my case, was extremely disappointing. In December, I wanted to get an ED order in, to secure a deliver date (we already had vacation plans made, with round trip airfare to Munich purchased) and lock in December incentives. My CA correctly told me I did not need to get a purchase order in then to accomplish those things, but just pay a deposit and submit a reservation form. We agreed on an invoice + price. He knew the 7% ED discount was being reduced, and that it was too late for me to get the 7%, so he called BMW N.A. to confirm the exact invoice price of the base 328i. BMW NA quoted him a price on 12/23. He quoted that price to me. I paid a deposit based on that quoted price, received a delivery date, and made hotel and other arrangements based on that delivery date. They said nothing to suggest I would have to get a P.O. in or reach any other step before 12/31 to keep that price.

Then, they apparently increased the price on 1/1, without telling anyone, including their own dealers. When I finalized the build and my CA plugged it into the system, he had no idea it was going to spit out a base price $475 higher than what he had quoted me. When he called BMW NA to discuss, they refused to honor the price they had quoted to him, and that the had quoted to me. I think this is the first time I've ever had anyone change the price on anything, after a deposit was paid.

Luckily, my CA and dealer stepped up to the plate and are eating most of the increase, even though they already were giving me a perfectly fair deal. But it's nonsense that BMW is putting them in that position. Yes, they can increase their prices all they want, but they really shouldn't do it without telling their own dealers, and they shouldn't apply that increase to transactions already in the works, with deposits already paid. This is my first BMW purchase, and it's really leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Hopefully a great experience at the Welt, and more importantly a great car, will eventually erase it.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

One thing that I have noticed with BMWNA is that they can be moody with their own documentation, like the department that create the official document do not talk too much with the department of dealer affairs. Although both ED invoice *and* wholesale prices were to be increased 2% after January in the official documentation, it seems to me that a change of mind somewhere in BMWNA happened after January and this standard $475 was just tacked on to the wholesale instead of the scheduled 2% increase. Ok, crap happens in a corporation and they need to adjust.

However, you as a customer should not had to be treated like this as BMWNA quoted your dealer a price a week before the Jan 1 ED 7% deadline. So even in the worst case they should have added the 2% wholesale then because they knew that your car just missed the 7% window and they knew that the upcoming 2% increase was applicable. So if the ED wholesale was $30,000 for example, then for Jan 1 had to be $30,600. Receiving a wholesale of $30,475 after Jan 1 would have been a _discount_, and no reason for this snafu.

Enjoy your ED... :thumbup:



colobrio said:


> Of course not, but the way BMW handled this, at least in my case, was extremely disappointing. In December, I wanted to get an ED order in, to secure a deliver date (we already had vacation plans made, with round trip airfare to Munich purchased) and lock in December incentives. My CA correctly told me I did not need to get a purchase order in then to accomplish those things, but just pay a deposit and submit a reservation form. We agreed on an invoice + price. He knew the 7% ED discount was being reduced, and that it was too late for me to get the 7%, so he called BMW N.A. to confirm the exact invoice price of the base 328i. BMW NA quoted him a price on 12/23. He quoted that price to me. I paid a deposit based on that quoted price, received a delivery date, and made hotel and other arrangements based on that delivery date. They said nothing to suggest I would have to get a P.O. in or reach any other step before 12/31 to keep that price.
> 
> Then, they apparently increased the price on 1/1, without telling anyone, including their own dealers. When I finalized the build and my CA plugged it into the system, he had no idea it was going to spit out a base price $475 higher than what he had quoted me. When he called BMW NA to discuss, they refused to honor the price they had quoted to him, and that the had quoted to me. I think this is the first time I've ever had anyone change the price on anything, after a deposit was paid.
> 
> Luckily, my CA and dealer stepped up to the plate and are eating most of the increase, even though they already were giving me a perfectly fair deal. But it's nonsense that BMW is putting them in that position. Yes, they can increase their prices all they want, but they really shouldn't do it without telling their own dealers, and they shouldn't apply that increase to transactions already in the works, with deposits already paid. This is my first BMW purchase, and it's really leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Hopefully a great experience at the Welt, and more importantly a great car, will eventually erase it.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Technic- very interesting. Are you saying that the actual ED wholesale prices only increased 475 across the board? So a car with a pre Jan wholesale price of 50k would've only increased to 50475 and not 51k?


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

bmw325 said:


> Technic- very interesting. Are you saying that the actual ED wholesale prices only increased 475 across the board? So a car with a pre Jan wholesale price of 50k would've only increased to 50475 and not 51k?


That is what is being reported in here... check posts above.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

bmw325 said:


> Technic- very interesting. Are you saying that the actual ED wholesale prices only increased 475 across the board? So a car with a pre Jan wholesale price of 50k would've only increased to 50475 and not 51k?


Unfortunately, not. There have been two increases. First, ED MSRP increased from 93% of US MSRP to 95%. Second, ED invoice/wholesale increased from 92% of ED MSRP to 92% ED MSRP + $475. This all "base" price; i.e., for a particular model before any options and before the $995 D&H charge.

So, for a 328i that went into production last December, base ED MSRP was $35,715 and ED invoice was $32,860. For cars that went into production after 1/1, ED MSRP went up to $36,435. 92% of that is $33,520, and that is the price which BMWNA quoted my CA, and he quoted me, on December 23 (there was no way to get a car into production by 12/31). That reflects the first increase, but not the second.

The base price BMWNA is now insisting on is $33,995, because it includes the second price increase of the flat $475.

I am referring to it as two separate price increases. It may be that it was always one price increase with two components, but if so, the information BMWNA gave to my CA was wrong when they gave it to him.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Technic said:


> Although both ED invoice *and* wholesale prices were to be increased 2% after January in the official documentation, it seems to me that a change of mind somewhere in BMWNA happened after January and this standard $475 was just tacked on to the wholesale instead of the scheduled 2% increase.


The only announced change to the European Delivery program was that the customer's discount would change from 7% of US base model MSRP to 5% of US base model MSRP to arrive at ED base model MSRP -- effective with all cars with a 2016 production date.

If the dealer's base model ED MSRP is higher by 2%, which it would be, then so would his ED base model invoice price, but that's not an extra 2%, which is what you seem to be saying. If you have information to the contrary, please explain because that's the hot topic of discussion right now.



> However, you as a customer should not had to be treated like this as BMWNA quoted your dealer a price a week before the Jan 1 ED 7% deadline. So even in the worst case they should have added the 2% wholesale then because they knew that your car just missed the 7% window and they knew that the upcoming 2% increase was applicable. So if the ED wholesale was $30,000 for example, then for Jan 1 had to be $30,600. Receiving a wholesale of $30,475 after Jan 1 would have been a _discount_, and no reason for this snafu.


That's not what happened. That's just the excuse his client advisor made up to pass the buck. Dealers do not call BMW to get a quote on the European Delivery price of a car. They already have all of that pricing information. That part was a fabrication!

Cars for dealer stock are priced when they are built, not when they are ordered, but cars that are Priority 1 (with the customer's name) are price-protected if they have already been entered into the system and given a production number. If that policy has changed, then I stand corrected, but in the meantime I'm going with this explanation because this is the way it's supposed to be done.

In other words, the customer is only price-protected if the dealer actually entered him into the system, not if the client advisor dreamed that he called BMW and dreamed that they gave him a price. That's the most absurd explanation I have ever heard and, believe me, I've heard a lot of explanation from salesmen (aka "client advisors," another ridiculous euphemism).

What happened with *colobrio* should not have happened but it happened because of the incompetence of the dealership personnel. They already knew about this upcoming price change and they already knew exactly how price-protection works. And to claim that they called BMW to ask for a ED price on a car is laughable. They have all of that information already and they know exactly what it takes to avoid an upcoming price increase!



Technic said:


> That is what is being reported in here... check posts above.


Technic, what is being reported here is speculation based on the facts presented by three or four forum members who observed increases in the base model wholesale price. It's highly unlikely that BMW would change the percent of MSRP from 92% to something variable and therefore much more likely that they have stuck in a new, previously unknown, adder. Based on the actual numbers reported by those forum members, it is obvious that all of them work out if we take 92% of ED base model MSRP and then add $475. Coincidence? Probably not. I think we can safely speculate that that is what they did but so far no one has confirmed that. Yes, I have three separate ED VIR reports from three different forum members and they all work out exactly based on that speculation. So I think we know what they did but not how they explained it. 



colobrio said:


> Unfortunately, not. There have been two increases. First, ED MSRP increased from 93% of US MSRP to 95%. Second, ED invoice/wholesale increased from 92% of ED MSRP to 92% ED MSRP + $475. This all "base" price; i.e., for a particular model before any options and before the $995 D&H charge.
> 
> So, for a 328i that went into production last December, base ED MSRP was $35,715 and ED invoice was $32,860. For cars that went into production after 1/1, ED MSRP went up to $36,435. 92% of that is $33,520, and that is the price which BMWNA quoted my CA, and he quoted me, on December 23 (there was no way to get a car into production by 12/31). That reflects the first increase, but not the second.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry your order was mishandled by the dealership but I don't believe the explanation give to you by your client advisor unless your client advisor is either brand new or very inexperienced in doing European Deliveries. There is no reason for anyone to call BMW to ask for a price on a European Delivery car. They have all of that information already and they know what needs to happen for a customer's ED order to be price-protected.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

colobrio said:


> The base price BMWNA is now insisting on is $33,995, because it includes the second price increase of the flat $475.


BMWNA is not insisting on anything. The dealer sets the selling price of the car, not BMWNA. BMWNA sets the price the dealer pays for the car but not the price he sells it for to the customer. The dealer messed up and now he's trying to put the blame on BMWNA.

There is a reason it's called the MSRP (Manufacturer's *Suggested* Retail Price).


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Ninong said:


> The only announced change to the European Delivery program was that the customer's discount would change from 7% of US base model MSRP to 5% of US base model MSRP to arrive at ED base model MSRP -- effective with all cars with a 2016 production date.
> 
> If the dealer's base model ED MSRP is higher by 2%, which it would be, then so would his ED base model invoice price, but that's not an extra 2%, which is what you seem to be saying. If you have information to the contrary, please explain because that's the hot topic of discussion right now.


The official bulletin of this ED increase is posted in the other BMW forum, and it states "Please be advised that *effective with January 2016 production* the European Delivery discount will be 5%. This change will be reflected _on both the base wholesale price and base retail price_ (red in bold was in the document, italics is mine).

It is also stated in the bulletin that "... BMW will not be offering price protection" after January 1st.

Therefore there was supposed to be an ED invoice increase as well of about 2%. But apparently it became a flat $475 wholesale after January 1st.



> That's not what happened. That's just the excuse his client advisor made up to pass the buck. Dealers do not call BMW to get a quote on the European Delivery price of a car. They already have all of that pricing information. That part was a fabrication!
> 
> Cars for dealer stock are priced when they are built, not when they are ordered, but cars that are Priority 1 (with the customer's name) are price-protected if they have already been entered into the system and given a production number. If that policy has changed, then I stand corrected, but in the meantime I'm going with this explanation because this is the way it's supposed to be done.
> 
> ...


OP is saying that there was apparently a call to BMWNA on 12/23 about invoice pricing and that BMWNA confirmed the pricing given. But the pricing was incorrect by $475 afterwards, which I did find conflicting as apparently BMWNA knew that the 7% discount production window was not going to be met. *Which also means that the wholesale price was changing as well according to the bulletin.* The OP deal was based on wholesale + $$$, so ED MSRP was irrelevant at this point. This is what I am saying based on what was written above.

If the call did not happen or if the dealer is lying then I do not know about that. What is so far clear to me in the post above is that all parties involved in the snafu were aware of the January 1st ED pricing cutoff. At least the dealer should have expected an increase of wholesale pricing for ED after January 1st if they actually read completely the bulletin and in particular the "no price protection" part. For sure they understood something (willingly or not) later because they ate up the $475.



> Technic, what is being reported here is speculation based on the facts presented by three or four forum members who observed increases in the base model wholesale price. It's highly unlikely that BMW would change the percent of MSRP from 92% to something variable and therefore much more likely that they have stuck in a new, previously unknown, adder. Based on the actual numbers reported by those forum members, it is obvious that all of them work out if we take 92% of ED base model MSRP and then add $475. Coincidence? Probably not. I think we can safely speculate that that is what they did but so far no one has confirmed that. Yes, I have three separate ED VIR reports from three different forum members and they all work out exactly based on that speculation. So I think we know what they did but not how they explained it.


I will know for sure once I place my ED order on April 1st. :bigpimp:


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Technic said:


> The official bulletin of this ED increase is posted in the other BMW forum, and it states "Please be advised that *effective with January 2016 production* the European Delivery discount will be 5%. This change will be reflected _on both the base wholesale price and base retail price_ (red in bold was in the document, italics is mine).


You and I are reading that entirely differently. 

Yes, the discount is now 5% instead of the previous 7% and of course it's reflected in both the MSRP and the dealer's wholesale price because his wholesale price is based on MSRP. But that doesn't mean what you think it means.



> It is also stated in the bulletin that "... BMW will not be offering price protection" after January 1st.


That's correct because this announced price change was announced several months in advance and it was very clear that it would apply to all cars with a *production date* after December 31, 2015. There was absolutely no need for price protection.



> Therefore there was supposed to be an ED invoice increase as well of about 2%.


This is what was announced: a change from 7% to 5% of US MSRP to arrive at ED MSRP. That's it. That was the only change that was announced. BMW explained further, just in case some people didn't understand what changing the ED MSRP meant, that this obviously meant a change in the dealer's invoice price since his invoice price is a percent of MSRP. That's not an additional change over and above the change they made to MSRP. If MSRP changes, then the dealer's cost changes as well since it's based on MSRP. Please go back and read it again. You posted it. It's very clear. "*This change* will be reflected on both the base wholesale price and the base retail price"

If the US base model MSRP on a car was $100,000, then the previous ED base model MSRP would have been $93,000 and the dealer's invoice would have been $85,560. After the change, the ED base model MSRP would be $95,000 and the dealer's invoice would be $87,400 because it's a percent of MSRP. That does not constitute two changes. It's just the one change. If MSRP is higher, then dealer's cost is higher.



> But apparently it became a flat $475 wholesale after January 1st.


Remove the "but" from that sentence and then we can say that based on the four or five reported VIR's so far it appears that the dealer's base model invoice price if $475 more than expected. In other words, if you multiply the ED MSRP by 92% we end up $475 less than the invoice shown on the five reported VIR's so far, three of which I have copies of because they have been PM'd to me on the forum.



> OP is saying that there was apparently a call to BMWNA on 12/23 about invoice pricing...


He said that's what his client advisor told him.



> ... and that BMWNA confirmed the pricing given.


He said his client advisor told him that.



> But the pricing was incorrect by $475 afterwards, which I did find conflicting as apparently BMWNA knew that the 7% discount production window was not going to be met.


Wait a minute... EVERYBODY knew that was impossible. That was never in doubt. Perhaps the client advisor chose not to explain that to the customer. Maybe that happened? There was absolutely no question about whether the 7% discount would apply or not because it's based solely on the actual production date that appears on the plate inside the car.

There was no reason for anyone at the dealership to call BMWNA for a price. They already had the price. There was no way for BMWNA to lock in a previous price -- assuming anyone actually called them, which I seriously doubt -- because the price change was announced several months in advance and it's not based on the date you place the order, it's based on the production date of the car. Period. So the client advisor's "explanation" is unbelievable and that's putting it in polite terms.



> *Which also means that the wholesale price was changing as well according to the bulletin.* The OP deal was based on wholesale + $$$, so ED MSRP was irrelevant at this point. This is what I am saying based on what was written above.
> 
> If the call did not happen or if the dealer is lying then I do not know about that. What is so far clear to me in the post above is that all parties involved in the snafu were aware of the January 1st ED pricing cutoff. At least the dealer should have expected an increase of wholesale pricing for ED after January 1st if they actually read completely the bulletin and in particular the "no price protection" part. For sure they understood something (willingly or not) later because they ate up the $475.


Everything that was reported as being said by the client advisor is unbelievable. If that's what he said, then he made that up to cover up for the dealership's own incompetence.

The only surprise here is the mysterious and unexpected apparent $475 increase to the dealer's ED base model invoice price. That's the only part we're all trying to get an explanation on and so far nobody want's to talk about that. Sooner or later it will pop up on that other forum because they have a couple of guys who post virtually everything -- including a complete chart breaking down money factors as well as residuals within hours after they receive them at the dealership.


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## GerWil (Dec 18, 2006)

Technic said:


> I will know for sure once I place my ED order on April 1st. :bigpimp:


Is there a particular BMW document that a customer can see that establishes the ED invoice price? It used to be that the Vehicle Inquiry Report listed the wholesale price of each item, but currently it only shows the ED MSRP. I negotiate for a dollar amount over ED invoice and my client adviser emails me the bottom line of the invoice price, which I confirm using .92 (now apparently + 475-) of the standard equipment price, and Edmunds for the packages and options. If there is a better way of confirming I would like to know what it is.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

Ninong said:


> . . .
> 
> That's not what happened. That's just the excuse his client advisor made up to pass the buck. Dealers do not call BMW to get a quote on the European Delivery price of a car. They already have all of that pricing information. That part was a fabrication!
> 
> ...


While I acknowledge I don't actually *know* what transpired between CA (yes, euphemism) and BMWNA, I think you are wrong about this. On 12/22, the CA ran a VIR. It showed 2015 pricing (I do know this, because I have a copy). The CA knew this would not apply to me, because he was aware of the coming price increase that would apply to post- 12/31 production (as was I, thanks to this thread). So he told me he would call BMWNA to confirm the 2016 pricing. The next day, he emailed me an invoice amount consistent with the announced price increase, but not the unannounced $475 adder. Because the system was still spitting out 2015 prices that no longer applied, it makes perfect sense to me that he would call to confirm the correct pricing for my transaction.

I have not gone and read the bulletin, but based on other comments today, maybe he should have been aware, and advised me, that I needed to get a P.O. in asap to protect price. Even if so, I don't think that gives BMWNA a pass for not honoring the price the quoted, on the very transaction started the same day in reliance on that quote.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

GerWil said:


> I there a particular BMW document that a customer can see that establishes the ED invoice price? It used to be that the Vehicle Inquiry Report listed the wholesale price of each item, but currently it only shows the ED MSRP. I negotiate for a dollar amount over ED invoice and my client adviser emails me the bottom line of the invoice price, which I confirm using .92 (now apparently + 475-) of the standard equipment price, and Edmunds for the packages and options. If there is a better way of confirming I would like to know what it is.


The VIR I received less than two weeks ago shows it (although called "wholesale"), for the base model and each option.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

colobrio said:


> While I acknowledge I don't actually *know* what transpired between CA (yes, euphemism) and BMWNA, I think you are wrong about this. On 12/22, the CA ran a VIR. It showed 2015 pricing (I do know this, because I have a copy).


That's because the change was not in effect yet.



> The CA knew this would not apply to me, because he was aware of the coming price increase that would apply to post- 12/31 production (as was I, thanks to this thread).


Okay, so far, so good. At least he told you about the proposed change from 7% to 5% in ED discount.



> So he told me he would call BMWNA to confirm the 2016 pricing.


There was no reason for him to make that call.



> The next day, he emailed me an invoice amount consistent with the announced price increase, but not the unannounced $475 adder.


Because the unannounced change had not yet become effective.



> Because the system was still spitting out 2015 prices that no longer applied, it makes perfect sense to me that he would call to confirm the correct pricing for my transaction.


I understand why you, as a customer, would think that makes perfect sense. To me it makes no sense at all and I wonder who he even talked to at BMW and about what.



> I have not gone and read the bulletin, but based on other comments today, maybe he should have been aware, and advised me, that I needed to get a P.O. in asap to protect price.


Okay, here's where the confusion is coming in. How would a P.O. protect the price? Your car is going to be priced based on whatever price is in effect on the date it's produced because of the previously announce change in the calculation of ED MSRP. So I don't understand why the client advisor though he could protect anything.



> Even if so, I don't think that gives BMWNA a pass for not honoring the price the quoted, on the very transaction started the same day in reliance on that quote.


BMWNA didn't give him the price. He already had the price. He may or may not have known in advance about this apparent $475 increase.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

GerWil said:


> Is there a particular BMW document that a customer can see that establishes the ED invoice price? It used to be that the Vehicle Inquiry Report listed the wholesale price of each item, but currently it only shows the ED MSRP.


Do you have a VIR that shows only ED MSRP?

I have three different guys who sent me copies of their VIR's and all of them show both wholesale and MSRP. The only surprise is that dealer's base model wholesale price is $475 higher than expected based on the usual calculation. (And that added $475 did not show up on ED cars in December.)


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Ninong said:


> You and I are reading that entirely differently.
> 
> Yes, the discount is now 5% instead of the previous 7% and of course it's reflected in both the MSRP and the dealer's wholesale price because his wholesale price is based on MSRP. But that doesn't mean what you think it means.


It means only one thing: *both *ED MSRP and invoice were going to be 5% instead of what used to be, which was 7% MSRP and about 7% and change for invoice. That's it.



> That's correct because this announced price change was announced several months in advance and it was very clear that it would apply to all cars with a *production date* after December 31, 2015. There was absolutely no need for price protection.


BMWNA price protection _warning_ in the bulletin was for dealers to be aware of the pricing change. Of course BMWNA did not have to provide any price protection. This was warned to avoid exactly what happened to the OP.



> This is what was announced: a change from 7% to 5% of US MSRP to arrive at ED MSRP. That's it. That was the only change that was announced. BMW explained further, just in case some people didn't understand what changing the ED MSRP meant, that this obviously meant a change in the dealer's invoice price since his invoice price is a percent of MSRP. That's not an additional change over and above the change they made to MSRP. If MSRP changes, then the dealer's cost changes as well since it's based on MSRP. Please go back and read it again. You posted it. It's very clear. "*This change* will be reflected on both the base wholesale price and the base retail price"
> 
> If the US base model MSRP on a car was $100,000, then the previous ED base model MSRP would have been $93,000 and the dealer's invoice would have been $85,560. After the change, the ED base model MSRP would be $95,000 and the dealer's invoice would be $87,400 because it's a percent of MSRP. That does not constitute two changes. It's just the one change. *If MSRP is higher, then dealer's cost is higher*.


That is exactly what the bulletin is saying, what I am saying now and what I questioned since page 1 of this thread when the assumption was that only the ED MSRP was to be increased. I do not see this as two changes but a single change in ED pricing that affect the only two variables available.

The OP deal was ED invoice + $$$, so the ED invoice originally quoted was scheduled to be increased by Jan 1. That is the whole issue here -somebody kind of forgot about that detail and thus the pricing snafu. Be the dealer or BMWNA at fault is irrelevant, what is relevant is that *both *entities knew or should have known about the invoice price increase of Jan 1, somehow they forgot about it and the "surprise" got to the customer unnecessarily.



> Remove the "but" from that sentence and then we can say that based on the four or five reported VIR's so far it appears that the dealer's base model invoice price if $475 more than expected. In other words, if you multiply the ED MSRP by 92% we end up $475 less than the invoice shown on the five reported VIR's so far, three of which I have copies of because they have been PM'd to me on the forum.


What is relevant (to me at least) in here is that apparently BMWNA is no longer talking about a percentage increase in ED wholesale pricing but a flat rate based on those examples.



> He said that's what his client advisor told him.
> 
> He said his client advisor told him that.


What is relevant is that the client advisor should have known that an ED wholesale increase was coming in Jan 1 according to the bulletin. If there was another bulletin afterwards confusing the first one I do not know, but the first bulletin was quite clear -the quoted wholesale/invoice pricing was changing somehow on Jan 1. That should have been told to the customer without the need of calling BMWNA -the expectation that the invoice deal will change in Jan 1 but not known by how much more at that time, at least.



> Wait a minute... EVERYBODY knew that was impossible. That was never in doubt. Perhaps the client advisor chose not to explain that to the customer. Maybe that happened? There was absolutely no question about whether the 7% discount would apply or not because it's based solely on the actual production date that appears on the plate inside the car.
> 
> *There was no reason for anyone at the dealership to call BMWNA for a price.* They already had the price. There was no way for BMWNA to lock in a previous price -- assuming anyone actually called them, which I seriously doubt -- because the price change was announced several months in advance and it's not based on the date you place the order, it's based on the production date of the car. Period. So the client advisor's "explanation" is unbelievable and that's putting it in polite terms.
> 
> ...


The only reason to call BMWNA was to confirm the ED invoice price after Jan 1. Although the dealers have the Confidential Wholesale pricing sheet available, most probably this particular client advisor really was not sure of the ED invoice increase of Jan 1. Regardless, the OP was not informed of the ED invoice increase by either party when it was expected.


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## GerWil (Dec 18, 2006)

Ninong said:


> Do you have a VIR that shows only ED MSRP?
> 
> I have three different guys who sent me copies of their VIR's and all of them show both wholesale and MSRP. The only surprise is that dealer's base model wholesale price is $475 higher than expected based on the usual calculation. (And that added $475 did not show up on ED cars in December.)


i had a VIRs dating from 2012 and back, that contained both wholesale and retail, but my most recent one dated last June for a 2016 340i only shows MSRP. It is attached. It seems from what you say that both prices are listed again. It is also possible that there would be two versions and my CA only sent me the one only with MSRP. I would like to know for the future.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

GerWil said:


> i had a VIRs dating from 2012 and back, that contained both wholesale and retail, but my most recent one dated last June for a 2016 340i only shows MSRP. It is attached. It seems from what you say that both prices are listed again. It is also possible that there would be two versions and my CA only sent me the one only with MSRP. I would like to know for the future.


Wholesale pricing is confidential for quite some time. No CA is _supposed_ to show it to you, much less post it online/publicly.

I personally know of a employee of BMWNA that was reprimanded by sharing the wholesale pricing sheet with a customer and then the customer posted it in a forum. I think that BMWNA is quite serious about this.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Technic said:


> Although both ED invoice *and* wholesale prices were to be increased 2% after January in the official documentation, *it seems to me that a change of mind somewhere in BMWNA happened after January and this standard $475 was just tacked on to the wholesale instead of the scheduled 2% increase*.


No they didn't change their minds and substitute the $475 for the previously announced increase because everyone who posted their VIR invoice prices posted numbers that reflected both the 2% increase *and* the $475 on top of that, so that part was never in question.



Technic said:


> The OP deal was ED invoice + $$$, so the ED invoice originally quoted was scheduled to be increased by Jan 1. That is the whole issue here -somebody kind of forgot about that detail and thus the pricing snafu. Be the dealer or BMWNA at fault is irrelevant, what is relevant is that *both *entities knew or should have known about the invoice price increase of Jan 1, somehow they forgot about it and the "surprise" got to the customer unnecessarily.


I think the point about "be it the dealer or BMWNA at fault" *is* relevant because in this case the client advisor has given the customer the impression that BMWNA gave them a "price quotation" and then BMWNA failed to honor their price quotation. That's the part that I find suspect. It is much more likely that the dealership screwed up and is now trying to pass the buck by making up an excuse and blaming BMWNA.



> What is relevant (to me at least) in here is that apparently BMWNA is no longer talking about a percentage increase in ED wholesale pricing but a flat rate based on those examples.


I don't follow what you're saying here, or asking? If we're talking about the recent change to the dealer's ED base invoice price, it appears to me, based on the VIR's I have received, that everything is as expected, including the fact that the ED base model MSRP is now only 95% of US base model MSRP and the dealer's "wholesale" price works out to 92% of this new ED base model MSRP *+ $475*. It's the plus $475 that is the only surprise.

The only reason I say that's what it appears to be is because that's the only way to explain the prices now reported by at least five different members when compared to ED invoices from as recently as December 2015, which do not have that mysterious additional $475. This was not *"instead of the scheduled 2% increase"* as you seem to think, it was in addition to it.



> Regardless, the OP was not informed of the ED invoice increase by either party when it was expected.


*"By either party"* doesn't apply because BMWNA has nothing to do with quoting selling prices to customers. This is entirely on the dealer and it appears they were quite clueless about what was going on. At least that's the way it has been reported. It looks like the client advisor was just making up excuses one after the other.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Ninong said:


> I don't follow what you're saying here, or asking? If we're talking about the recent change to the dealer's ED base invoice price, it appears to me, based on the VIR's I have received, that everything is as expected, including the fact that the ED base model MSRP is now only 95% of US base model MSRP and the dealer's "wholesale" price works out to 92% of this new ED base model MSRP *+ $475*. It's the plus $475 that is the only surprise.
> 
> The only reason I say that's what it appears to be is because that's the only way to explain the prices now reported by at least five different members when compared to ED invoices from as recently as December 2015, which do not have that mysterious additional $475. This was not *"instead of the scheduled 2% increase"* as you seem to think, *it was in addition to it*.





colobrio said:


> So, for a 328i that went into production last December, base ED MSRP was $35,715 and ED invoice was *$32,860*. For cars that went into production after 1/1, ED MSRP went up to $36,435. 92% of that is *$33,520, and that is the price which BMWNA quoted my CA, and he quoted me*, on December 23 (there was no way to get a car into production by 12/31). *That reflects the first increase, but not the second.*
> 
> The base price BMWNA is now insisting on is* $33,995, because it includes the second price increase of the flat $475.*
> 
> I am referring to it as two separate price increases. It may be that it was always one price increase with two components, but if so, the information BMWNA gave to my CA was wrong when they gave it to him.


Sorry, I was responding based on the first post and not on the subsequent clarification. Now I understand... there are in fact 2 invoice price increases coming from BMWNA instead of one. The issue is with the $475 adder that BMWNA apparently did not issue an official bulletin and thus nobody was aware until now, including this dealer.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Look at it this way. Even with the reduced ED discount, Americans are still saving thousands of dollars on European Delivery that can offset much or all of their travel expenses. Maybe not for a couple picking up a 2- or 3-series and planning to stay 10 days but certainly more than enough to offset the expenses of an individual picking up a 7-series and planning to return in a week or less.

ED MSRP for us starts out 5% less than US MSRP and the only adder is that new $475 added to base instead of the $500 adder plus $180 training & service fee that are added to cars for regular US delivery. Compare that with the zero percent off that Canadians get for European Delivery and the 600-1,200 euro extra that Germans pay for the privilege of taking delivery at the Welt.

Unless we live in a state like Oregon that has no sales tax, most of us pay sales tax when we register our cars but we don't pay a 19% VAT like the Germans. And we definitely don't pay anything remotely close to the prices (including taxes) that people in most other countries pay.


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## pranav_jindal (Apr 9, 2012)

Ninong, thanks a lot for cheering me up  Though definitely a pinch, I am happy with the deal and look forward to the car. And working with Adrian Avila has been seamless so far.

With all due respect, the benchmark is not what people in other countries or states pay since none of us (ok, maybe not all!) would change our location because we want to purchase a particular BMW. The comparison in my mind is ordering the car 6 months ago which would have saved about $1400 for ED of the same car. But then again, ordering today is probably better than waiting another 6 months ... who knows 

Definitely looking forward to the sausages and the beer :drink:


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Except in 6 months it would be MY17


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## reidhester (Aug 22, 2015)

*unsubscribing*

Hi all,
It's funny how life takes turns when you least expect it. We went down to the Santa Maria BMW shop on Sun to initiate the ED order for a 2017 228i ragtop. And walked out a couple hours later with a new 2016 228i ragtop that was pretty much what we were going to order.

As it was 2/28 and a short, slow month for them, they were eager to close a deal with us. They offered us >10% off the 2016 MSRP and while it was $2k over the price we'd negotiated for the '17, it had more than $2k in additional packages. So we went for it.


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## dvrming (Mar 21, 2016)

colobrio said:


> Of course not, but the way BMW handled this, at least in my case, was extremely disappointing. In December, I wanted to get an ED order in, to secure a deliver date (we already had vacation plans made, with round trip airfare to Munich purchased) and lock in December incentives. My CA correctly told me I did not need to get a purchase order in then to accomplish those things, but just pay a deposit and submit a reservation form. We agreed on an invoice + price. He knew the 7% ED discount was being reduced, and that it was too late for me to get the 7%, so he called BMW N.A. to confirm the exact invoice price of the base 328i. BMW NA quoted him a price on 12/23. He quoted that price to me. I paid a deposit based on that quoted price, received a delivery date, and made hotel and other arrangements based on that delivery date. They said nothing to suggest I would have to get a P.O. in or reach any other step before 12/31 to keep that price.
> 
> Then, they apparently increased the price on 1/1, without telling anyone, including their own dealers. When I finalized the build and my CA plugged it into the system, he had no idea it was going to spit out a base price $475 higher than what he had quoted me. When he called BMW NA to discuss, they refused to honor the price they had quoted to him, and that the had quoted to me. I think this is the first time I've ever had anyone change the price on anything, after a deposit was paid.
> 
> Luckily, my CA and dealer stepped up to the plate and are eating most of the increase, even though they already were giving me a perfectly fair deal. But it's nonsense that BMW is putting them in that position. Yes, they can increase their prices all they want, but they really shouldn't do it without telling their own dealers, and they shouldn't apply that increase to transactions already in the works, with deposits already paid. This is my first BMW purchase, and it's really leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Hopefully a great experience at the Welt, and more importantly a great car, will eventually erase it.


I am considering using ED on a M235i. My concern is having a problem over the several months it takes to complete this transaction.

Since you have a dealer who is consumer friendly, would you consider sharing their information so others can give them more business? It is good to support the dealers that go to bat for us.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

dvrming said:


> I am considering using ED on a M235i. My concern is having a problem over the several months it takes to complete this transaction.
> 
> Since you have a dealer who is consumer friendly, would you consider sharing their information so others can give them more business? It is good to support the dealers that go to bat for us.


They are all in the dealer's forum which is better than a one off anecdote.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=20


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

dvrming said:


> I am considering using ED on a M235i. My concern is having a problem over the several months it takes to complete this transaction.
> 
> Since you have a dealer who is consumer friendly, would you consider sharing their information so others can give them more business? It is good to support the dealers that go to bat for us.


I guess you could say that if that's your opinion of how his order was handled, or mishandled. His order would have been price-protected if it had actually been entered into the system as a Priority One order with his name on it and received a production number. It was not price-protected because the dealer didn't do that and instead made up some story about calling BMW for a price, whatever that means.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

Ninong said:


> I guess you could say that if that's your opinion of how his order was handled, or mishandled. His order would have been price-protected if it had actually been entered into the system as a Priority One order with his name on it and received a production number. It was not price-protected because the dealer didn't do that and instead made up some story about calling BMW for a price, whatever that means.


Ninong and I continue to disagree about this situation. On 12/22 my CA confirmed for me how the pricing would work on an order placed in December for 2016 production. It reflected the 2% change but not the yet to be announced $475 change. On 12/24 I submitted my paperwork. My understanding is that on 12/26, my CA entered my order in the system. BMW increased the cost to dealers by $475 effective 1/1, and applied that increase to my order. On 1/7 (i.e., pretty quickly after the end of the holiday break), BMW confirmed my delivery date. The reason I was subjected to the increase is not because I wasn't in the system.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Ninong said:


> His order would have been price-protected if it had actually been *entered into the system as a Priority One order with his name on it and received a production number*. It was not price-protected because the dealer didn't do that and instead made up some story about calling BMW for a price, whatever that means.





colobrio said:


> Ninong and I continue to disagree about this situation. On 12/22 my CA confirmed for me how the pricing would work on an order placed in December for 2016 production. It reflected the 2% change but not the yet to be announced $475 change. On 12/24 I submitted my paperwork. My understanding is that on 12/26, my CA entered my order in the system. BMW increased the cost to dealers by $475 effective 1/1, and applied that increase to my order. On 1/7 (i.e., pretty quickly after the end of the holiday break), BMW confirmed my delivery date. The reason I was subjected to the increase is not because I wasn't in the system.


If your CA confirmed to you *how the pricing would work* then that means he explained to you that your order was not price-protected until *after it received a production number*, right? Is that what he explained to you? Or did he make up some story about asking BMW for a price, whatever that means?

Do you understand that 12/26 was the day after Christmas? Do you understand that BMW is shut down completely from December 23 until January 2nd? That means absolutely no action was taken on your order whatsoever. None. Until January 2016. Your client advisor knew that. The dealership knew that. Did they explain that to you? Did they, or did they not, explain to you prior to accepting your order that it would not be price-protected until after it was assigned a production number? If they explained that to you, as they should have, then you have nothing to complain about.

What I think your complaint revolves around is that you were apparently misled by the client advisor into thinking that even if your order was not entered into the system until the end of December, while everyone was on their annual Christmas Holiday break, that it would be price-protected. That is not a complaint about the way BMW handled your deal, that is a complaint about the way the dealership, and specifically your client advisor, handled your deal. As far as the explanation that they "called BMW for a price," that makes no sense whatsoever. They don't call BMW for a price, they already have the prices. If there is a price change, as there often is at the beginning of January, they will learn about it when it happens, but they know from their many years of experience with BMW that it is something they can look forward to at that time of year. They just don't know which models may have an increase or if BMW will make any other changes to the pricing structure, especially one that does not affect the MSRP and therefore will not be publicly announced.

I understand fully what your complaint is. I just think you should stop saying BMW mishandled your order and begin saying your "consumer-friendly" dealership mishandled your order by not telling you how price-protection works.

Feel free to disagree all you want but that's the truth.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

Ninong said:


> I understand fully what your complaint is. I just think you should stop saying BMW mishandled your order and begin saying your "consumer-friendly" dealership mishandled your order by not telling you how price-protection works.
> 
> Feel free to disagree all you want but that's the truth.


So, if I've got this straight:
1. BMW chose not to lock my price, because they were on holiday when my CA entered my order into the system, they increased the price effective while they were on holiday, and they chose to treat my order as effective when they returned from holiday, and not from when my CA entered it;
2. My CA/dealership stepped up and protected my price themselves, even though it meant giving up a significant percentage of their markup on the deal, and without my even raising a stink or anything; and
3. You think I should blame my CA.

Yeah, I think it's time for us to agree to disagree on this one. I'm sure we could go 'round and 'round on it for another year, but I think we've kind of said what we've got to say. But I'll hand it to you, your really got me good with that day after Christmas bit, because, like, no, I didn't know!
Cheers.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

colobrio said:


> So, if I've got this straight:


*NO!* You still don't have it straight.

Why do you insist on ignoring the most important requirement necessary to qualify for price-protection after I have repeated it in every comment I have made about it? Have you even read what I said? I'm sure you have but you have chosen to deliberately ignore the part about having to have a *PRODUCTION NUMBER* assigned to your order. Perhaps it is because you aren't familiar with the process and don't understand when a production number is assigned? It's not something that is assigned immediately after your order is entered into the system, whether anybody is there in the office or home celebrating the holidays.

Did your client advisor ever explain this process to you? Did you understand that your order would have to be entered into the system *and* have a production number assigned to it? In all of my replies to you I have told you that you needed a production number to qualify for price protection but you're still ignoring that altogether and saying we will just agree to disagree. I can't even get you to agree on what my comment was in the first place and what it always has been because you're skipping the part about the production number.

:tsk:


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

How is the production number more important than getting the price he agreed to?


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

reidhester said:


> Hi all,
> It's funny how life takes turns when you least expect it. We went down to the Santa Maria BMW shop on Sun to initiate the ED order for a 2017 228i ragtop. And walked out a couple hours later with a new 2016 228i ragtop that was pretty much what we were going to order.


My dealer told me they do not have ordering information on the 2017 models until about June? We're planning on a late Sept ED delivery of a 2017 340GT. I'm sure there will be nothing on the lot for me. It's the first year of the 340GT, and I do not want Black, White, Silver or Grey, all with a black interior, which are the only colors they seem to stock.


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## colobrio (Jan 14, 2016)

Ninong said:


> *NO!* You still don't have it straight.
> 
> In all of my replies to you I have told you that you needed a production number to qualify for price protection
> 
> :tsk:


I understand this is BMW's policy. It is not a policy that Moses handed them on stone tablets after coming down from a mountain; it is a policy they chose for themselves. In my opinion it is a crappy policy, from a customer relations perspective. They could just as easily adopt a policy that said a customer is price protected from the time their order is submitted, such that if there is a price increase between the time their order is submitted and the time BMW gets around to processing their order and assigning a production number, the customer gets the benefit of the the price in effect when the order was submitted. You apparently don't think BMW chose a crappy policy. Fine. I do. It is okay to disagree about this. Really.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> How is the production number more important than getting the price he agreed to?


The parties to that agreement were the customer and the independent franchised dealer, who sets his own selling prices. In this particular case, according to the customer's information, the dealer did NOT tell him that price-protection from BMWNA applies only after a Priority 1 order has been assigned a Production Number. The dealer knew that. They could have explained that to the customer. If they didn't, then the dealer is stuck living up to the deal they made with the customer.

Why does anyone think this is unexpected? Why does anyone think the dealer did such a wonderful job in compromising later when this entire misunderstanding was their fault? They know how it works. They knew there was absolutely no way that an order entered on December 26 would receive any attention until some time after they returned to work on Monday, Jan. 4, 2016. They knew that the price from BMW would be whatever was in effect when the order received its Production Number, just as it always is.

BMW did nothing wrong. The dealership screwed up and then concocted all sorts of wild stories to make it look like it was BMW's fault. Shame on the client advisor.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

Ninong said:


> the dealer is stuck living up to the deal they made with the customer.


Exactly. The poster got his agreed to deal. Your rant about dealer and/or BMW issues seems beside the point. They are not even here to give their accounts of the events.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

colobrio said:


> I understand this is BMW's policy. It is not a policy that Moses handed them on stone tablets after coming down from a mountain; it is a policy they chose for themselves. In my opinion it is a crappy policy, from a customer relations perspective. They could just as easily adopt a policy that said a customer is price protected from the time their order is submitted, such that if there is a price increase between the time their order is submitted and the time BMW gets around to processing their order and assigning a production number, the customer gets the benefit of the the price in effect when the order was submitted. You apparently don't think BMW chose a crappy policy. Fine. I do. It is okay to disagree about this. Really.


Your contract is not between you and BMW. Your contract is between you and the independent franchised dealer you chose to sell you a BMW. Even if this was a finance deal or a lease deal, it is still a contract between you and the dealer. Later the dealer will sign the assignment section of the finance contract or lease agreement assigning the contract to BMW Financial Services. BMW Financial Services then purchases that finance contract or lease contract from the dealer. At that point they own that finance contract or lease contract because they bought it from the dealer.

Do any of you guys ever read the contracts you sign? Okay, I'll answer that for you. The answer is less than 2% of you actually read all of the fine print, or even most of the large print, on the contracts you sign when you buy a car.

U.S. law prohibits car manufacturers from telling their independent franchised dealers what the selling price must be. It does require -- at least since 1958 -- that they produce a *M*anufacturer's *S*uggested *R*etail *P*rice label for every car and that label must me on the car at the time of delivery to the retail customer. Obviously it can be removed by the salesperson at the customer's request but legally it cannot be removed until after the customer has seen it.

If your client advisor failed to explain to you that price-protection from BMWNA for Priority 1 orders only applies after the order has been assigned a Production Number, then your client advisor screwed up and of course the dealership should live up to the agreement they made with you. They could just as easily have explained in advance that there was a possibility the price might change, as if often does in January, since there was no possibility of the order receiving a Production Number while everyone in Germany was on Christmas Holiday and wouldn't be returning to work until Jan. 4, 2016.

In order for your dealer to increase the selling price of this car after he made the deal with you, he needed to explain to you in advance that there was a possibility he might raise your price if BMWNA charged him more for the car. Since he didn't do that, your original price agreement should not have been revised higher by the dealer no matter what BMW did.


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Gary J said:


> Exactly. The poster got his agreed to deal. Your rant about dealer and/or BMW issues seems beside the point. They are not even here to give their accounts of the events.


It's not a rant at all. It's nothing more than a simple explanation of the facts and those facts apply to all transactions between the customer and the dealer. They are not specific to this deal and do not depend on varying accounts of events. If the client advisor did not say anything about a potential price increase, then the dealership is stuck with the deal they made.


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## Michael @ BMW Seattle (Mar 5, 2016)

Wow, my head hurts. That's a ton of posts.
:yikes:

It's all so much easier on the dealer side. We have Wholesale and Retail Pricing Guides. They show Base MSRP and Invoice for US, Euro, and Diplomatic Delivery

They then show Packages and Options Wholesale and Retail pricing

You take Euro Base, and then add the options (W/R).

You get a Wholesale/Retail total.

I realize it's tons harder when you have to estimate things.

I took my last Euro (2016) and did the percentages:


US MSRP: $63,500
Euro Base MSRP: $60,325
 That's 5% off
Euro Base Invoice: $55,975
 That's 92.789% of Euro Base MSRP
All Options calculate to 90.9% to 91.33% (ave 91.05%)

From a dealer perspective, we bought that ED car at the same percentages that we do for US cars. Clients are getting the benefit of the initial 5% drop.

~M~


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## Ninong (May 20, 2014)

Michael @ BMW Seattle said:


> I took my last Euro (2016) and did the percentages:
> 
> 
> US MSRP: $63,500
> ...


Michael,

That statement is incorrect. And your percentage off ED base MSRP is irrelevant because that's not how it's calculated. For a regular delivery, your price is 92% of base MSRP + $500 (replaced MACO but now applied nationwide) + $180 training and service fee. For ED invoice, it's calculated as 92% of base ED MSRP + $475, starting the beginning of this year. Notice that $475 is 95% of $500.

So the difference this year is that your ED invoice base went up by $475. Another obvious difference you forgot to mention is that you have a $180 training and service fee on a regular invoice that you don't have on a ED invoice. This is why some customers can't come up with the correct dealer's cost when using just 92% of base and 91% of options + $925 destination and handling fee. They don't know about the $500 adder (effective beginning of 2015) and the $180 training and service fee.

For European Delivery the difference that the customer sees is that the new ED base MSRP is 95% of regular MSRP when it used to be only 93%. What the customer doesn't know is that the dealers were hit with this new $475 adder that they didn't have last year.


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