# What preps to do for race?



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

armaq said:


> From what I understand, yes it's $250 for both days. That's why I signed up. For a newbie like me, it can't be too bad.


That's a bargain and I'd find it difficult to convince a newbie or even someone that's done even five or more schools to pay *TEN *times more for a weekend (or even a week). Most people that attend BMW events are doing it for different reasons as opposed to those professional schools as Pinecone has mentioned. Have fun as I'm sure you will.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> You just summed up my thoughts. Nothing more to add except a CCA weekend here runs easily more than $500 inclusive of gas + motel.


Uh... you mean excluding gas, lodging, etc., right? I know I've spent easily more than $250 some weekend just on food, lodging and fuel and that's for instructing! (Sears Point comes to mind)


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

SergioK said:



> Uh... you mean excluding gas, lodging, etc., right? I know I've spent easily more than $250 some weekend just on food, lodging and fuel and that's for instructing! (Sears Point comes to mind)


But of course. I was enrolled with Audi club event at SP and decided to abandon the trip yesterday and put the money towards more acquisition devices/R-comps. I figure the weekend will be about $900 or so. Plus if I bring Lin, it's only fair if I bring her shopping. Throw in another $200 for dinner and shopping.

I would love to visit SP, LS and TH. Maybe when I get a trailer or something. For now, I am happy at BW. Can you imagine Warren and Carrie actually recognize me? LoL! I should buy a plot of land next to BW.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> For now, I am happy at BW. Can you imagine Warren and Carrie actually recognize me? LoL! I should buy a plot of land next to BW.


Who? :rofl: wow... if you're there that much, maybe you really should buy a place of your own nearby huh?


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> Who? :rofl: wow... if you're there that much, maybe you really should buy a place of your own nearby huh?


I hear Bakersfield real-estate is going up. My folks will happily sell you their palacial estate with 5 bedrooms, 3 bath, 2 livingrooms, fireplace, and big kitchen and 2 dens and a pool for measely $400,000. 

Corner lot. Exclusive (or as exclusive as Bakersfield can get) school district. Within walking distance to Elementary school, 5 minutes drive to Jr. High and High School, and walking distance to CSU Bakersfield.


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

The HACK said:


> I hear Bakersfield real-estate is going up. My folks will happily sell you their palacial estate with 5 bedrooms, 3 bath, 2 livingrooms, fireplace, and big kitchen and 2 dens and a pool for measely $400,000.
> 
> Corner lot. Exclusive (or as exclusive as Bakersfield can get) school district. Within walking distance to Elementary school, 5 minutes drive to Jr. High and High School, and walking distance to CSU Bakersfield.


In all seriousness, Andy and I are looking at a lot to build a warehouse, store our stuff, and possibly build an indoor cart facility for fun sake.The driving-to/from-track in the car is getting a bit exhausting.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> In all seriousness, Andy and I are looking at a lot to build a warehouse, store our stuff, and possibly build an indoor cart facility for fun sake.The driving-to/from-track in the car is getting a bit exhausting.


 :yikes: Wow! Best of luck with that idea. We'll be sure to come visit if you get the kart track thing going... I'm sure Mdk330i would love it...


----------



## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> I was enrolled with Audi club event at SP and decided to abandon the trip yesterday


Can you tell me what you thought of the audi club run events? How did you get involved with them and find out about their schools? Please let me know. I would be interested in checking out their hpde's. I tried e-mailing the porsche club to get more information about their schools, and big surprise they never even got back to me at all with a response. Just trying to see what else is out there that is affordale.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> I tried e-mailing the porsche club to get more information about their schools, and big surprise they never even got back to me at all with a response.


You can't tell them up front that you only have a lowly Bimmer...  just kidding...


----------



## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

doeboy said:


> You can't tell them up front that you only have a lowly Bimmer...  just kidding...


yeah, i think that was the first mistake i made. i just assumed that they would be as friendly as the bmw cca guys in terms of welcoming other brands of cars.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Just tell them you've removed all the rearview mirrors; they'll change their stance. :angel:


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Dave kept saying I will love SP so I started investigating early summer. 

There aren't many SP events to begin with. SV usually has a SP event in April. Then there are NASA, CCA, CSRG and few other exquisite clubs. I found the Audi event by chance. It's stricter from what I can see. Drivers are required to attend mandatory meeting the night before the 2-day event. $495 covers everything including meals, wine tasting, awards etc. I spoke to Dean Treadway, president of Audi Golden Gate. I think they have a new president now btw. Anyway, the event is indeed meant for Audi owners. But I showed him my track resume and that I practice good track etiquette. And he said, sign up!

And hrm one thing...the instructors are required to pay $150 to join. :lmao:



liuk3 said:


> Can you tell me what you thought of the audi club run events? How did you get involved with them and find out about their schools? Please let me know. I would be interested in checking out their hpde's. I tried e-mailing the porsche club to get more information about their schools, and big surprise they never even got back to me at all with a response. Just trying to see what else is out there that is affordale.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Dave kept saying I will love SP so I started investigating early summer.
> 
> There aren't many SP events to begin with. SV usually has a SP event in April. Then there are NASA, CCA, CSRG and few other exquisite clubs. I found the Audi event by chance. It's stricter from what I can see. Drivers are required to attend mandatory meeting the night before the 2-day event. $495 covers everything including meals, wine tasting, awards etc. I spoke to Dean Treadway, president of Audi Golden Gate. I think they have a new president now btw. Anyway, the event is indeed meant for Audi owners. But I showed him my track resume and that I practice good track etiquette. And he said, sign up!
> 
> And hrm one thing...the instructors are required to pay $150 to join. :lmao:


:yikes: :rofl:

I think you'd enjoy SP too...  It's one of my favorites as well. Quite challenging. Hope you have a good time with Audi Club if you do end up going.


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

liuk3 said:


> yeah, i think that was the first mistake i made. i just assumed that they would be as friendly as the bmw cca guys in terms of welcoming other brands of cars.


I don't think it has anything to do with being friendly or not, Ken.

Anyway which club did you contact: PCA or POC?


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

SergioK said:


> True, but I've never seen a $300 BMW driving school. Most of the events out here are just over $425 on the low side to upwards of $600. Even still, that's for about 4 hours of instruction not including classroom instruction, but then again, most BMW CCA driving schools are geared towards a different market than those other schools.


East Coast versus West. You guys pay more.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Credulus said:


> My pops used to race spec racers Pinecone  Cool to see the car again. :thumbup:


Fun cars to race. Just had my first top 10 finish. 9th out of 26 starters.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> You just summed up my thoughts. Nothing more to add except a CCA weekend here runs easily more than $500 inclusive of gas + motel.


Well a pro school still has motel, and likely more travel costs to get there.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

SergioK said:


> I've never heard of a seasoned Pacific coast student who's come through the BMW program from D to A to club racing and has taken someone out in such a grotesque way as was done in the case that I mentioned.
> 
> And yeah, instructing and driving are two different things. Kinda like a football coach and football player. One knows what to do, the other trys to actually do it.
> 
> The difference with driving is that most people think they can go out and learn it in a couple days, maybe even a week and they're done with the schooling. Now it's all about me and seat time. Hell, how complicated can it be? I mean, it's a throttle/brake/clutch/steering wheel equation. Easy enough, I've been doing it since I was 15 years old. :dunno:


So one incident means that everyone who has gone through pro schools can't drive?  Come on, there are examples of every group having those who are idiots. We have a couple racing Spec Racers locally.

You CAN learn the basics in a couple of days, and then spend the rest of your life perfecting those skills. It is funny that CCA schools requires many days of track time to solo, while pro schools do it sometimes the first day, and have as few or fewer incidents than CCA schools. And CCA students after many days of "instruction" cannot drive the line, even with cones marking the turn in, apex and track out. Pro schol students do that day 1.

And after watching CCA students at O'fest, most of them have no clue as to WHY they are doing what they are doing, as they can't get close to a line (not even the right line, just A line) in 4 on track sessions.


----------



## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with being friendly or not, Ken.
> 
> Anyway which club did you contact: PCA or POC?


i guess that's how dumb i am about cars. i didn't even know that there was a difference between pca and poc. i don't even remember which one i contacted. i just know that the dude never got back to me. for the record, which one should i contact in terms of checking out their schools?

you should come to sear's point nov 5&6 with bmw cca. it would be good to see you if you could make it.


----------



## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

Pinecone said:


> Fun cars to race. Just had my first top 10 finish. 9th out of 26 starters.


congratulations. :thumbup:

i'm curious as to what was your progression before you finally got to club racing? for example, how many hpde's and with what organizations? how long it took you and what run groups were you in before you started racing or going to race schools? how did you decide to race in the class you are in or did you do a bunch of different classes before settling in the race group you are in? thanks.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> You CAN learn the basics in a couple of days, and then spend the rest of your life perfecting those skills. It is funny that CCA schools requires many days of track time to solo, while pro schools do it sometimes the first day, and have as few or fewer incidents than CCA schools. And CCA students after many days of "instruction" cannot drive the line, even with cones marking the turn in, apex and track out. Pro schol students do that day 1.


 Sure you can learn them in a couple days, but can *average * drivers actually practice them, repeatedly, over and over again, half hour at a time *and then * retain those skills months later? Absolutely most cannot.

The learning curve for most average drivers isn't as steep as you may think. Perhaps one day if/when you begin instructing you'll understand. Sitting in the right seat gives you a perspective that invariably is much wider than when sitting in the left seat. Only after having sat hours in the right seat do I think you will understand what I'm referring to.

And like I've said before, pro schools tailor to a different market. BMW CCA schools cater to drivers that typically would not attend pro schools. Sure the learning curve is slower, but true A students here can turn some quite flawless laps.

And most O'fest driving schools attract drivers that typically don't make up the typical schools. That was definitely the case last year at O'fest in Pasadena.


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

If it's POC, I can understand why. Those folks are die-hard racers. I don't think the club offers any driving schools.

It's sure nice to visit a premium track like SP but I have already backed out from Audi Club's event. It's back to the same thing I have been preaching: too much $$$ for too little seat time. I have already invested that sum into more acquisition devices and more track time at BW.



liuk3 said:


> i guess that's how dumb i am about cars. i didn't even know that there was a difference between pca and poc. i don't even remember which one i contacted. i just know that the dude never got back to me. for the record, which one should i contact in terms of checking out their schools?
> 
> you should come to sear's point nov 5&6 with bmw cca. it would be good to see you if you could make it.


----------



## cchan (Sep 19, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> for the record, which one should i contact in terms of checking out their schools?


 IIRC, PCA, at least here, requires attendance at a classroom ground school session before attending any driving event. The schools are only one day with 4x20 min sessions, require long sleeves/pants, but only ~$200. Kind of short in my opinion, especially if you are traveling a decent distance. Greater PCA focus seems to be on time trial events - and for that there are even more rules for clothing, including gloves and 5/6pt harness, and even rollbars and driving suits... I think the BMW CCA events are best for education.


----------



## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

cchan said:


> The schools are only one day with 4x20 min sessions, require long sleeves/pants, but only ~$200.


I think that the price point is comparable to bmw cca since it's about half the price of a two-day bmw cca school. I was just trying to look into alternatives to get me additional seat time and instruction. I definitely need the instruction and seat time to get me some skillz.


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> I definitely need the instruction and seat time to get me some skillz.


You need to go on the Track-a-holic Stage 1 every CCA event program like me... 

Though it necessarily doesn't have to be all CCA if you choose to do other events. I just happened to do all the CCA events because I've gotten to know the people that frequent such events and it's what I'm comfortable with. Even considered throwing in the non-CCA event every now and then, but for me right now, one thing at a time so I'm keeping things the way they are for now.


----------



## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

doeboy said:


> You need to go on the Track-a-holic Stage 1 every CCA event program like me...
> 
> Though it necessarily doesn't have to be all CCA if you choose to do other events. I just happened to do all the CCA events because I've gotten to know the people that frequent such events and it's what I'm comfortable with. Even considered throwing in the non-CCA event every now and then, but for me right now, one thing at a time so I'm keeping things the way they are for now.


yeah, but the problem is if you have conflicting schedules with their schools, then you are pretty much SOL, since there is maybe only one school a month. also, some months like december, there isn't a bmw cca school for us in the area. just trying to check out the other options out there.

edit: P.S. - i'm in the same boat as you though. the primary thing that does keep me going to the bmw cca events has been the people i've gotten to know since attending the schools. :thumbup:


----------



## Jim44 (Feb 28, 2004)

doeboy said:


> I just happened to do all the CCA events because I've gotten to know the people that frequent such events


And you *STILL *attend the events? Wow, that is hard-core.
:loco:

:angel:

Jim


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Jim44 said:


> And you *STILL *attend the events? Wow, that is hard-core.
> :loco:
> 
> :angel:
> ...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yes, amazingly so... despite the various characters I've met... yellow shirt or not...


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> yeah, but the problem is if you have conflicting schedules with their schools, then you are pretty much SOL, since there is maybe only one school a month. also, some months like december, there isn't a bmw cca school for us in the area. just trying to check out the other options out there.
> 
> edit: P.S. - i'm in the same boat as you though. the primary thing that does keep me going to the bmw cca events has been the people i've gotten to know since attending the schools. :thumbup:


That's because you let things like work get in the way.... get your priorities straight...  :rofl: 

Totally understand what you're sayin though... there have been months with no events lined up and I find myself looking around for and considering other events to satisfy the addiction. We need to go karting more often during those times. It's cheaper.  :drive:


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

liuk3 said:


> congratulations. :thumbup:
> 
> i'm curious as to what was your progression before you finally got to club racing? for example, how many hpde's and with what organizations? how long it took you and what run groups were you in before you started racing or going to race schools? how did you decide to race in the class you are in or did you do a bunch of different classes before settling in the race group you are in? thanks.


Thanks, the rain helped, I LIKE rain. And most people do NOT. I wish it had rained race day, I may have had a top 5 in that case. 

Progression took MANY years, mainly because of time and money.

Autocrossed in college. Did Skip Barber 3 day race school in 1985. Did nothing for a lot of years. Did a couple of Roos driving schools (not race). Got back into autocrossing in 02.

First CCA DE C Group, recommended to B. Second one, different chapter, same thing, so I finally ran two back to back with the same chapter and went to B and got signed off the first weekend for solo. Late one ran one day B one day A, got signed off for solo after first session both days. And that is it for track days, non-pro school an non-race.

Somewhere in there did a 3 day Daly school (just because my wife was doing the 2 day performance driving school  ). That got me my SCCA Regional license. Last year ran a double regional in a rented Spec Racer to maintain my license (2 regionals a year to renew). Ran the same double this year, a year later. Decided to buy the car and ended up running 3 more regionals over the summer. So this race was my 8th race, ever.

In there also did a 1 day rallye school, a couple of days of serious karting.

Just renewed my comp license for another year, but due to the extra races, I qualified for a National license.

I thought my season was over, but my next trip got postponed, so I may run the endruo race weekend at VIR. 3 races in one weekend, two of them enduros. 1.5 hour enduro on Sat, 30 minute regional race on Sunday and finish up with a 45 minute enduro. And practice an dqualifying for each race, plus if I do the test and tune day, it should be around 7 hours in teh car in 3 days. 

The way I decided on this class was I rented the car for the first race weekend. I liked the people and the racing and the car. The group is great, everyone helps everyone else out, even your close competitors, and the fast guys help the slower guys. The racing is great fun. Designed as a race car, but pretty much over built. Great handling. Every thing is spec, so nobody is beating you because they bought a new "special engine" or latest go fast widget. They are in front of you because they drive better.

Also, about the only race car you can buy, race, and as long as you maintain it, it doesn't go down in value. The class and cars have been around for 21 years, and the first cars are worth just as much as last years car, as long as both are maintained and have reasonably the same freshness of engine.

I looked at Spec Miata, but they aren't really spec. Yes, you can buy a used car for $3K, put $3K in in and go racing. And have great fun, at the BACK of the pack. The guys up front have $25K PLUS in their cars, and I have heard of $25K engines to make them SPEC. One guy who now races Spec Racer Fords used to race Spec Miata, he had around $25K in his car.

A Spec Racer in good shape, low time engine, ready to run is about $18K plus or minus. Brand NEW car runs $28 - $32K depending on what kind of extra stuff you put in it (fancy paint, data systems, video, etc).

SRFs were dyno'd at the Runoffs, 2.7 hP difference across 11 engines. Spec Miata dyno results are more than 20 HP difference between the front guys and the non-front guys.

Repairs, SRF cars have fiberglass bodies, pretty easy to repair. Steel tube chassis that is easy to repair. Production based cars (based on modern cars) are typically unibody, meaning you can tweak one so you have to replace the entire car.

Spec Miata looks like great fun, the people running seem to enjoy it, and you can rent them to try them out, and I may do that one time just to do it.

And lastly, every race has a Customer Service Rep there who has parts and can help make repairs, help with setup and tips and tricks. You don't have to buy and bring a lot of spares. And in fact, my car lives at the CSR, and he brings it to races, keeps up with all the stuff during the weekend (gas, oil, tire pressure, repairs, adjustments, etc) and then takes it back. Really makes it possible for me as I have little time involvment outside of race weekends. Like a pro driver, you show up and drive, then leave. Of course the checks go the other direction.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

SergioK said:


> Sure you can learn them in a couple days, but can *average * drivers actually practice them, repeatedly, over and over again, half hour at a time *and then * retain those skills months later? Absolutely most cannot.
> 
> The learning curve for most average drivers isn't as steep as you may think. Perhaps one day if/when you begin instructing you'll understand. Sitting in the right seat gives you a perspective that invariably is much wider than when sitting in the left seat. Only after having sat hours in the right seat do I think you will understand what I'm referring to.
> 
> ...


Yes, they can. If they want to and are taught well.

My problem is with the way that the CCA schools teach things, with their limits, the learning curve is very shallow. Becuase of the diverse crowd of various people each time things are run, the classroom sessions (in my experience) are repetative and dumbed down.

Yes, maybe the audience is different. But this whole thing started with someone who wanted to take it further and go racing. If you just want to drive at the track, and learn some few basics, then CCA schools are fine. But if your goal is to go racing, go to a pro school FIRST, and then do CCA (or other groups) stuff for the seat time.

But you will learn a lot more, in a shorter amount of time at a pro school. And then you can refine that and practice it at CCA schools, as long as you get good instructors which is NOT a given).

And while I have not instructed track driving, I have instructed, professionally in some cases, several other things, and I have found, that in general, students give you back what you expect. Expect more, and they deliver more. Give more, and they give back more.


----------



## liuk3 (May 3, 2004)

Pinecone,
Thanks for sharing. It was interesting hearing your progression and offering your perspective. I think it is helpful to hear the different ways people have become involved and progressed in motorsports. If others are willing to recount how they made the progression, I think that'd be great.
Thanks,
Ken


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

And since I posted, I have new experience. I am now a track driving instructor. 

Did my first day yesterday. And funny, I was able to take a first time EVER at the track driver from scary to fairly competent. Watching mirrors, DRIVING THE LINE, even doing a couple of off line corner entries (due to late passing signals). He went from one of the slowest to well above average in 4 sessions. IT CAN BE DONE. 

So, anybody who wants to coordainte a Friday at the Track at Summit Point, I will be glad to ride with them, at least ONCE. :rofl:


----------



## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

Pinecone said:


> So, anybody who wants to coordainte a Friday at the Track at Summit Point, I will be glad to ride with them, at least ONCE. :rofl:


Pinecone,

I want to sincerely thank you for brain dumping all your knowledge onto this forum. I learned a lot from your posts.

And I'd like to take you up that offer to get some one-time instruction. Very convenient that you live near Washington DC.

Thanks,


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Thanks for the kind words. I will most likely be doing the Nov 18 FATT, and then next year we will see what my scheduel brings.


----------

