# Considering Big Brakes



## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

DZeckhausen said:


> ...
> That being said, the stock rear brakes do not get hot enough to cook the Axxis Ultimate pads. So the easiest track set-up is to use a full race pad up front and Axxis Ultimate in back, then use Axxis Ultimate all the way around for the street. That way, you only have to change out the front pads for your track events....
> 
> While we're on the subject of pad options, my favorite combination of pads for the BMW 540i with front StopTech brakes is Performance Friction 01 race pads in front and Axxis Ultimate street pads in back. If you reach the point where you are running R-compound track tires and are in the Advanced or Instructor run groups, then it's time to switch to a track pad in the rear. But until then, the Axxis Ultimate pads should serve you well in the back calipers.
> If you're doing this just for perormance, then the front BBK is fine. Keep in mind the front BBK has smaller caliper pistons than the front half of the 4-wheel BBK. So the front BBK is designed to balance your stock rear brakes, while the front half of the StopTech 4-wheel kit is designed to balance the bigger StopTech rear brakes.


OK, so if I want to keep my wheels, I will need to stick with the smaller caliper pistons on the front and OEM on the back. Lets suppose this is the set up I am going to get...

you have mentioned two sets of pads; F01 and Hawk HT-10. Which ones would you recommend for road coarse use (remember fronts only)? The road coarse use I am talking about is 15-20 minutes sessions onTHIS TRACK 4 to 5 times in one day in one hour intervals?

I have done this track several times on oem brakes, but I was not as aggressive as I wanted to be because I was afraid the brakes may not hold up. I run on summer performance street tires.

Thanks Dave!


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## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

Malachi said:


> OK, so if I want to keep my wheels, I will need to stick with the smaller caliper pistons on the front and OEM on the back. Lets suppose this is the set up I am going to get...
> 
> you have mentioned two sets of pads; F01 and Hawk HT-10. Which ones would you recommend for road coarse use (remember fronts only)? The road coarse use I am talking about is 15-20 minutes sessions onTHIS TRACK 4 to 5 times in one day in one hour intervals?


Performance Friction 01 pads in front, Axxis Ultimate pads in the back. That would be my choice for a top performing and trouble free set-up. Interestingly, I received an order for exactly this combination (StopTech front BBK with PFC01 pads) on Saturday and will be shipping it out on Monday.


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

DZeckhausen said:


> Performance Friction 01 pads in front, Axxis Ultimate pads in the back. That would be my choice for a top performing and trouble free set-up. Interestingly, I received an order for exactly this combination (StopTech front BBK with PFC01 pads) on Saturday and will be shipping it out on Monday.


Dave, I almost done with the questons :eeps:

What can I expect if I ran that combo on the street? Is it tolerable for a short period on the street or do I have to change the front pads while I am on the track?


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## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

Malachi said:


> What can I expect if I ran that combo on the street? Is it tolerable for a short period on the street or do I have to change the front pads while I am on the track?


That question tells me you haven't read my "Avoiding Brake Judder" article yet. :stickpoke

Check out this link and see if you still have the question: http://www.zeckhausen.com/avoiding_brake_judder.htm

The bottom line is that you don't want to change pads at the track. You want to put the race pads on at home and drive to the track with them installed. The race pads, when cold, act as a grinding tool to remove unwanted transfer material from the rotors.


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

DZeckhausen said:


> That question tells me you haven't read my "Avoiding Brake Judder" article yet. :stickpoke
> 
> Check out this link and see if you still have the question: http://www.zeckhausen.com/avoiding_brake_judder.htm
> 
> The bottom line is that you don't want to change pads at the track. You want to put the race pads on at home and drive to the track with them installed. The race pads, when cold, act as a grinding tool to remove unwanted transfer material from the rotors.


 :rofl:

Actually, I am not sure what is worse to tell that I had read it and forgot you covered that or to say I never read it. Well, lets stick with the truth and admit that I forgot you covered that. 

Once again, I am reminded why I hold you in such high esteem. Thank you!
:bow: :bow: :bow:


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

I bought the front StopTech BBK from Dave. They come with the Axxis Ultimates which I will use for the street. In addition, I got the Performance Friction 01 Full Race pads for the track and rear stainless lines for the stock brakes along with some brake fluid.

I got them in silver since I will have only the fronts and should match the backs somewhat.

They won't be on for a while but will provide some feedback when I have some.

Thanks again, Dave.


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

Malachi said:


> I bought the front StopTech BBK from Dave.


AWESOME! I cant WAIT fer PICS!


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## wheel-man (Sep 28, 2004)

Wow... great thread. Malachi, thanks for asking such great questions... I definitely learned a lot. 

Just wondering, since I noticed that Prop sprung for the STOPTECHs and Dave with the BREMBOs, is there a performance difference between the two, or mainly just price? And if there is a benefit, could you explain it in layman's terms? :eeps:  

I've been contemplating the 4wheel upgrade... and after seeing this thread, more so then before.


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

wheel-man said:


> Wow... great thread. Malachi, thanks for asking such great questions... I definitely learned a lot.
> 
> Just wondering, since I noticed that Prop sprung for the STOPTECHs and Dave with the BREMBOs, is there a performance difference between the two, or mainly just price? And if there is a benefit, could you explain it in layman's terms? :eeps:
> 
> I've been contemplating the 4wheel upgrade... and after seeing this thread, more so then before.


I decided the StopTech were going to work for me due to three main reasons:

1) There was an article in Sep 2002 addition of Car and Driver where they tested brakes on a WRX. The StopTech did as well as the Brembos.

2) Dave carries them. Dave has had a lot of personal track experience (Dave you may want to post your resume one of these days) and vouches for them. Dave has given me good advice in the past and when I did not take some, I regretted it, so I trust what he tells me.

3) They are cheaper.

Whether you get two or four, it just depends on what you are wanting. This is generally how it was explained to me...for practical purposes, unless you are an advanced driver and on a track, you don't need 4, 2 will suffice. That is the route that I went.

The only problem with the route that I took is:

1) If I become a much better driver and then need 4, I wheel need larger wheels because the BBK won't fit my rear M66 wheels. In addition, my front BBK would be not work well with the new rears. Remember, I bought the front BBK to work with my stock rear brakes.

2) I chose to buy silver color brakes to match my stock rear ones. I would have liked to buy black or maybe another color (if I would have bought all 4) because I think that would have looked good.

I hope that helps


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## wheel-man (Sep 28, 2004)

Thanks for the reply...

I agree with the step-wise upgrade path, but also have an aspect to my personality that wants things done all at once.

I don't think the STOPTECH comes in a 4wheel package for the 330i ZHP.... is possible to use the M3 package?


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

wheel-man said:


> Thanks for the reply...
> 
> I agree with the step-wise upgrade path, but also have an aspect to my personality that wants things done all at once.
> 
> I don't think the STOPTECH comes in a 4wheel package for the 330i ZHP.... is possible to use the M3 package?


You really ought to talk to Dave Zeckhausen of Zeckhausen Racing or at least check out his site. It is full of information about brakes and such and it may answer you question.


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

I got my brakes on yesterday/today...

The techs had a bit of a learning curve to go through. When I got my car my "Brake" light was on and my "Brake Lining" fault was activated. My brakes felt spongier than I expected.

I called Dave and asked him if any of this was normal. He said no. That was yesterday. Today, I took the car back and all my "lights" are off and the brake pedal feels much firmer. I still don't know if they have it entirely right becasue they said the could not get the sensor to back in the pad.

The brakes feel very natural to the car and I love it stopping power.  I feel very confident with them. It just may be a mental thing, but I am looking forward to taking the car to the road coarse.

The PS2 tires feel great! Much better than my SO3 even when they were new. They just feel much lighter and has a softer ride. I also tested them on a particular curvy to see how they did and again, I was very pleased. More testing to come.

Prop, pics as soon as I can. The wheels looking really nasty right now due to the dust created during the break in...really nasty


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

Malachi said:


> Prop, pics as soon as I can. The wheels looking really nasty right now due to the dust created during the break in...really nasty


Yer gonna make me wish I'd done silver instead of black.  Though you will have something to look forward to... Polishing and waxing your calipers in ab a year. :eeps:

It's a sickness.


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## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

Malachi said:


> The techs had a bit of a learning curve to go through. When I got my car my "Brake" light was on and my "Brake Lining" fault was activated. My brakes felt spongier than I expected.
> 
> I called Dave and asked him if any of this was normal. He said no. That was yesterday. Today, I took the car back and all my "lights" are off and the brake pedal feels much firmer. I still don't know if they have it entirely right becasue they said the could not get the sensor to back in the pad.


I was in California on Friday and Saturday at a brake technology seminar. I did get a message from your tech and spent some time on the phone with him during one of the breaks in the lectures. He was pleasant to deal with and willing to learn a few tips & tricks about bleeding. He had aleady bled the brakes a second time and managed to get a few more bubbles out. I told him about the technique of tapping the calipers with a rubber mallet and he was interested to try that out and see if it got any more air out. Based on our conversation, I think there's a tiny bit more air that can be evacuated from your brakes.

As for the sensor, I'm beginning to wonder if it just sticks out too much to work properly under the 17" Style 66M rims. I could swear I've had customers use the sensor under this rim, but it's been a while and there have been so many cars and so many wheels since then that it's all becoming a blur. At worst, you can just pull the sensor out and tie-wrap it to the support bracket near the strut where it won't come in contact with anything.



> The brakes feel very natural to the car and I love it stopping power. I feel very confident with them. It just may be a mental thing, but I am looking forward to taking the car to the road coarse.


You're going to have a blast on the road course. It will be like night and day. Just remember, the Axxis Ultimate pads are NOT track pads and you will need to switch in something line Performance Friction 01 for your track day. Otherwise you'll get massive pad deposition and will be complaining about brake judder. Trust me on this. Use a dedicated track pad for the track. When switching back and forth, follow my guidelines here: http://www.zeckhausen.com/avoiding_brake_judder.htm


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

One coment about Axxis Ultimates in the rear:

I wore them down to the backing plates in less than three days on the track. They do not take heat all that well.


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## DZeckhausen (Mar 11, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> One coment about Axxis Ultimates in the rear:
> 
> I wore them down to the backing plates in less than three days on the track. They do not take heat all that well.


I have some customers getting much more than that out of the Ultimates. Looks like you've reached the combination of skill and equipment level that you should consider using a dedicated track pad in the rear. Or, consider a BBK.


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

D


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

> DZeckhausen said:
> 
> 
> > I was in California on Friday and Saturday at a brake technology seminar. I did get a message from your tech and spent some time on the phone with him during one of the breaks in the lectures. He was pleasant to deal with and willing to learn a few tips & tricks about bleeding. He had aleady bled the brakes a second time and managed to get a few more bubbles out. I told him about the technique of tapping the calipers with a rubber mallet and he was interested to try that out and see if it got any more air out. Based on our conversation, I think there's a tiny bit more air that can be evacuated from your brakes.
> ...


I bought Performance Friction 01 Full Race pads from you, I just need to learn how to put them in. Thanks again for your help.


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## Malachi (Sep 30, 2003)

PropellerHead said:


> Yer gonna make me wish I'd done silver instead of black.  Though you will have something to look forward to... Polishing and waxing your calipers in ab a year. :eeps:
> 
> It's a sickness.


Not familiar with 1Z Extra, but that is for another thread...I too have the detailing sickness.


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