# BMW i8 Lease Residual?



## Motorboat411 (Jul 23, 2012)

Does anyone know when will i8 Lease residual be announced? What kind of payments should one expect? north of $1K?

What about Federal Tax credit of $7.5K...I just checked fueleconomy.gov and i8 isn't listed yet.


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## BMW_F1 (Nov 6, 2009)

Have you already put down a deposit? In CA the waiting list at most dealers is about 2 years...

I would expect well north of 1k. It's a 135k vehicle.


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## Motorboat411 (Jul 23, 2012)

No deposit yet. I'm in no rush to lease one...just wanted to get an idea of the lease numbers.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Forget the lease......just buy it ...imho......just tying to GET. A car will be issue. Cars at most dealers will be way over msrp.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

High demand = Low residual
Low demand = High residual

Generally speaking. Coupled with high selling price, this is probably not a good car to lease. The resale is also a big unknown factor. Usually the first gen of any tech depreciates fast, since subsequent improvements make the cars much better and thus desirable.


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## kyfdx (Aug 4, 2003)

I'll guess $2K/mo., if you can get one...


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Also don't discount alternative leasing companies as a consideration.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

IF... key word........... IF


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## the_phew (Mar 4, 2014)

chrischeung said:


> High demand = Low residual
> Low demand = High residual


It's totally backwards from a finance perspective, but god bless BMWFS for their absurdly high residuals. The lease payment on my $38k MSRP 320i is lower than it would be on a $26k GTI.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

the_phew said:


> It's totally backwards from a finance perspective, but god bless BMWFS for their absurdly high residuals.


BMW is thinking about it from a marketing perspective. They need to incentivise the leases on lower demand vehicles.


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## BXL4 (Mar 19, 2013)

If you are leasing, then BMW takes the tax credit as the actual asset owner. 


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Again.. IF you can get a i8, expect to pay a lotta $ to get one.............. like north of $200k I would guess.


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## 335Fanatic (Aug 6, 2009)

[email protected] BMW said:


> Again.. IF you can get a i8, expect to pay a lotta $ to get one.............. like north of $200k I would guess.


that's around 100k markup :dunno:


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Good luck trying to find one at Msrp.... Especially in la....! I am sure someone out there will sell for Msrp... Santa Barbara bmw will 

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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

Motorboat411 said:


> Does anyone know when will i8 Lease residual be announced? What kind of payments should one expect? north of $1K?
> 
> What about Federal Tax credit of $7.5K...I just checked fueleconomy.gov and i8 isn't listed yet.


57% at 36 months for 15K miles

payments will be closer to 2K then to 1K *IF *you find one at MSRP


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

key word "IF"


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## ddk632 (Aug 19, 2006)

Wow, that is a really fair if not even kind of high residual - I would expect it a lot lower actually.

Since all 1st year i8s (except 163 of them, long story) are Pure Impulse, with an MSRP of $146,700, a 36 month lease with these numbers and 0.00130 MF yields a payment of roughly $2200/mo at MSRP with no cap cost reduction, give or take a few bucks depending on your state tax rate.

Not bad at all, but just flat out buying the car, the payment would be a maximum of maybe $500/mo higher (worst case scenario with a crap interest rate).

Agree with Greg, IF you can get one at MSRP it simply makes no sense to lease the i8 vs just buying one.

And it's a special car I think most would want to hold on to.

Btw if anyone is having trouble finding an i8, there will be one auctioned off to the highest bidder on August 16th at the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance. Though I imagine it's going to fetch much more than MSRP, of course, and something tells me it won't be a lease


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

This is not a lease car........ buy and hold....... enjoy.


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## Motorboat411 (Jul 23, 2012)

I met my was talking with my SA few days ago and we started talking about i8. He said that his dealership only got two allocations for Q1 (or Q2) 2015 and both cars are sold already. One for around $270K and other for $250K :yikes:


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Motorboat411 said:


> I met my was talking with my SA few days ago and we started talking about i8. He said that his dealership only got two allocations for Q1 (or Q2) 2015 and both cars are sold already. One for around $270K and other for $250K :yikes:


Yep - but how much is the monthly lease on that? Don't focus on selling price, just the payment.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

ddk632 said:


> What BS are you referring to?


The fact that he believes in buying used to save money. As in the term "I call BS on that". I'm using the term in a colloquial manner.



ddk632 said:


> Regardless that's not what this thread is about.


I think of threads like online "conversations". One thing to another. The vast majority of these threads have nothing to do with i8 lease residuals.


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

chrischeung said:


> He's not dropping $100K for a car. He's dropping $100K to be one of the first to look at what the cars of tomorrow will be like.
> 
> Probably the only thing that is like a regular car on the i8 (including the Ferrari 458) are the tires. Everything else is forward BMW thinking. The Ferrari 458 is like a Boeing 747 Intercontinental - best of the dinosaurs - nothing really new or ground breaking. The i8 is like a Boeing Dreamliner - first of the future. It's like being the first "space tourist", or first privateer to climb Mt Everest. Even if BMW charged $250K MSRP, they'd probably be losing money factoring in development costs.
> 
> There is often a huge upfront cost to things like these until they hit the mainstream.


Yes, actually he is paying $100k over sticker for a car. Whatever his motivation is, it is still paying $250k for a car with a sticker of $150k.

My point wasn't questioning the reasons why, I was merely saying that if you can afford to spend $250k on a car, the cost of insurance probably isn't a worry...


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

CTSoxFan said:


> Whatever his motivation is, it is still paying $250k for a car with a sticker of $150k.


I agree. If you look at anyting like eBay, shows on TV regarding antiques, limited items etc., you'll see abundant examples of people more than willing to pay over sticker for many things. It's that type of psychology just applied to cars.


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## ddk632 (Aug 19, 2006)

chrischeung said:


> The fact that he believes in buying used to save money. As in the term "I call BS on that". I'm using the term in a colloquial manner.
> 
> I think of threads like online "conversations". One thing to another. The vast majority of these threads have nothing to do with i8 lease residuals.


Gotcha and touché on the conversation part.

Note that I didn't say he believes or doesn't believe in it, just that I read an article written by him (now linked in my initial post on the subject) where he stated that he purchased his F1 used with 2500 on the clock and it was a big purchase, not taken lightly, for him, at that time.

In essence, that he doesn't have the trust fund approach to buying cars even though he certainly has the wealth to do so if he chose.

That was more the reason I chose to include that tidbit in my post, rather than espouse buying used to save money (something I myself don't do, anyway).

[Edit - I reread my post and realized that I could have done a better job making that point, rather than focusing in the used part, so I see where you are coming from in that one.]

Hey, it's all speculation. I don't know the guy. Met him a couple of times at the Rock Store, one time with his F1 actually. But for all I know maybe he paid a premium to be the first in the states with a P1 and doesn't GAF anymore himself.


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

I will state this.......... especialliy in LA... DDK632 put it perfectly and... is very spot on... I will repeat this... if you are an athlete or big film/tv exec and you make $100-400 mill a yr do you really think they worry about if they pay $150 or $250 for something they want?.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

[email protected] BMW said:


> I will state this.......... especialliy in LA... DDK632 put it perfectly and... is very spot on... I will repeat this... if you are an athlete or big film/tv exec and you make $100-400 mill a yr do you really think they worry about if they pay $150 or $250 for something they want?.


You don't even need to earn that much. Even if you only have $5 million in net worth. The stock/housing/etc. market moves 1%. That's $50K right there. In 1 day. There's not much difference in having $5.1 million and $5 million. I expect people in the market for an i8 are in that ballpark of purchsers, if not more. In this instance, folks are more likely concerned about the perception than the actual effect - you don't really want to show up to work in front of your neighbors and employees in a car you paid $100K over sticker for on the one hand, and on the other be cutting costs, pushing people harder etc.

Naturally, you can't extrapolate that to everything you spend on (you need to be that athlete or exec you mentioned for that). But if cars are your thing, then what the hey?

Greg/Justin - how do CAs feel about this 'over MSRP' pricing? I know that these aren't your dealerships, and you don't set the price. But do you ever get situations where customers pay over MSRP, find it to be quick depreciation, and then express displeasure down the road? How do you maintain those relationships as CAs? Upfront mitigation? How do you explain to long term "good" customers that the price is so far over MSRP?


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2012)

chrischeung said:


> He's not dropping $100K for a car. He's dropping $100K to be one of the first to look at what the cars of tomorrow will be like.
> 
> Probably the only thing that is like a regular car on the i8 (including the Ferrari 458) are the tires. Everything else is forward BMW thinking. The Ferrari 458 is like a *Boeing 747 Intercontinental *- best of the dinosaurs - nothing really new or ground breaking. The i8 is like a* Boeing Dreamliner *- first of the future. It's like being the first "space tourist", or first privateer to climb Mt Everest. Even if BMW charged $250K MSRP, they'd probably be losing money factoring in development costs.
> 
> There is often a huge upfront cost to things like these until they hit the mainstream.


Nice...I like it


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## Greg @ East Bay BMW (Jul 6, 2013)

We're at MSRP as our group doesn't allow us to sell anything over it.

Bad news is our deposit list is* large...


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Personally...I feel msrp is what is fair. But that is way outta my control. I refuse to sell any car for "over msrp" I have sold over 9 new m3m4's at msrp..have another 4 set up..no rate markup or acquisition Fee bump..Just straight msrp. As far as the i8 most that will be sold over sticker are not my portfolio clients...I have 7 offers of msrp..it will never happen. I have basically told my clients if they really want a i8 you better call every dealer on the country to get one. This car has a massive demand and a excessively minimal supply. Sad to admit biut it's one of the few times all dealers on the us will adhere to no discounts...you do not have to on this car. And if there is a wait list....some rich dude who wants to pay an extra $50k for it...do not be surprised if that msrp guy gets bumped....IMHO.


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## Ace535i (Jan 28, 2012)

Greg @ East Bay BMW said:


> We're at MSRP as our group doesn't allow us to sell anything over it.
> 
> Bad news is our deposit list is* large...


Wow, no regional market adjustment add-ons. Pacific BMW stands above the rest! :thumbup:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

[email protected] BMW said:


> some rich dude who wants to pay an extra $50k for it...do not be surprised if that msrp guy gets bumped....IMHO.


Just curious, if the customer is shown on VIR as priority 1 customer sold, can the customer complain to BMWNA if bumped by the dealer?


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Not really.....each dealership is Independently owned not much BMW can do. P1 Just means it is sold internally...I.e. ..do not trade or sell without talking to CA whose name is on car.


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## ddk632 (Aug 19, 2006)

There is a post on an i8 forum somewhere that this happened. A guy with a long history with his dealership had an i8 on order at MSRP, or at least had a deposit down. Dealer changed ownership and they decided they will sell the i8 at market price. He's straight up out of luck; what can he do?

An order even with a deposit is not a legally binding contract such as a lease or purchase agreement. The customer can back out up to any point before actually signing the lease/purchase docs at time of delivery. So, the dealer can do the same. In both cases it is going to make the party look like a scumbag*... But there are no legal ramifications, either.

* unless the car for the customer was incorrectly configured or some exception of this type; if you ordered an i8 and they deliver a 2 Series Active Tourer, for example, even if it has the M Sport package I don't think anyone will fault you for refusing to take the car... No offense to anyone ordering the Active Tourer, of course.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Slightly different angle: How do the centers feel about the overhead expense of the i8, particularly if they are selling at MSRP?

I imagine each center needs to train one or two master techs on servicing the car, and buy a lot of specialized equipment. If the center sells 4 i8's a year and these are driven minimally by collectors, that means they may have a grand total of 8-12 service visits over the next 2 years, from which they have to recoup the cost of training, tools and diagnostic equipment. Doesn't seem like a very good value proposition, no matter how much showroom traffic this halo car drives.

And I would bet no dealer is going to have i8 parts in inventory, so when something breaks, the part will have to be shipped in from Germany (maybe even manufactured by the supplier for this particular repair?) Who picks up the cost of giving the customer suitable substitute transportation for the 3-plus weeks it takes for a repair? And what is suitable substitute transportation for an i8 driver: B7? M6GC? I realize some owners will just jump in their Pagani, McLaren or Veyron, but still, either BMWNA or the center has to offer them "something".

Really curious about the business case behind the i8. Maybe the press and buzz is good for BMWNA, but I have a hard time seeing how it makes sense for the center. Thoughts?


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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

The center makes a great amount of $ of initial sale..plus the foot traffic and buzz it brings to center always helps. The dealers that get over sticker make a killing. Anything over msrp is just free $.... This is one of the few cars since the Z8/Alpina Z8 to bring this kind of profit to stores. Every dealer can't wait to get a car in. Remember the dealers sell hundreds of cars every year below invoice...a few i8's do not balance the books....


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

quackbury said:


> Really curious about the business case behind the i8. Maybe the press and buzz is good for BMWNA, but I have a hard time seeing how it makes sense for the center. Thoughts?


Think of it as getting new technology out to the masses and feedback with real users. Would you buy an i8 if it was $60K? Say in 20 years time? There is no part of the i8 that I can see not being much cheaper with time and volume. I think I read that the next 3 series is going to use the i8 engine without the electric motor.

Look at the Porsche 959. They lost money on each one. But the underlying technology appeared on new 911s for the following 20 years.


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## ddk632 (Aug 19, 2006)

As far as the technicians and training, I think the cost is not as bad as you think, because of the i3, and also future BMW i vehicles that will follow. The training for the i3 and i8 is the same, for the most part.

Techs will have to be certified for working with high voltage components in order to work on certain parts of the i vehicles, but this is not specific to the i8. So I think a lot of that cost is spread out over the general "BMW i Dealer" training that all BMW i dealers have to partake in.

- The electric motor is, save some small differences, the same unit as in the i3. 
- The CFRP construction has special process for repair, which is common to both i3 and i8.
- The 1.5L Turbo motor has the same block as the new Mini, so techs will surely be familiar with it, even though there are nuanced differences in some of the top end and various components. 
- Diagnostics and repair for the common systems, such as infotainment, safety, suspension, etc., are all conventional and common to many BMWs. With diagnostics all being computerized this is likely just a matter of software, anyway.

I can't see it being too costly to stock some common parts in some small quantities that are i8 specific. 

Now, having to repair or replace one of those flying buttresses in an accident, that would suck. But I don't see a major difference with that and some other small volume cars. Some other rare parts, like the gorilla glass, maybe the headlights (especially when lasers are out in the US), etc., will be hard to come by and not stocked. Just guessing, of course.

I have read that the Z8 didn't get a lot of support from BMW with parts, making repairs take a long time for the reasons you mentioned, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that this may happen with the i8. Hopefully not. But for the most part, due to the special CFRP repair process, a lot of shared components with the i3, new Mini, and general automotive components I don't think it'll be that bad, either for the customer or the dealers who have to work on the cars. It just seems like BMW put a lot of thought into the repair of the i vehicles during development, from what I've read.

Definitely it will not be Carrera GT bad where dealers had to purchase a special lift just for that car!

As for the loaner issue, my guess is they will hand out some car from their normal loaner fleet. Maybe even an i3! Just because you have an i8, I doubt you will get special treatment. 

Anyone with a Z8 or B7 or 760Li or M6 - do you get special treatment and special loaners? With my X6M I don't; I'm lucky to get a BMW loaner and not Enterprise Rent-A-Car :rofl:

It's ok though since when I get back into my car after driving a base X1 for a couple of days, I know I appreciate how special and awesome she is just that much more


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## Ace535i (Jan 28, 2012)

chrischeung said:


> Think of it as getting new technology out to the masses and feedback with real users. Would you buy an i8 if it was $60K? Say in 20 years time? There is no part of the i8 that I can see not being much cheaper with time and volume. I think I read that the next 3 series is going to use the i8 engine without the electric motor.
> 
> Look at the Porsche 959. They lost money on each one. But the underlying technology appeared on new 911s for the following 20 years.


What are your thoughts on the 2015 M3/4? I understand the engine is based on the N55.

Would this imply that the I6 is a better BMW engine than the N63? Everyone complains in the V8's oil consumption. Is it nevertheless the best V8 in the marketplace?


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Ace535i said:


> Would this imply that the I6 is a better BMW engine than the N63? Everyone complains in the V8's oil consumption. Is it nevertheless the best V8 in the marketplace?


Yes, the I6 is better. Better fuel economy, more torque, more power, lower weight. An overall better engine. Certain engines are better in individual aspects, but in the majority of cases, the latest engines are better overall.


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## Ace535i (Jan 28, 2012)

chrischeung said:


> Yes, the I6 is better. Better fuel economy, more torque, more power, lower weight. An overall better engine. Certain engines are better in individual aspects, but in the majority of cases, the latest engines are better overall.


So, for a non-M, would you select a 535i (or 740i) vs 550i (or 750i) were you to buy the car?


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