# Dedicated summer tire performance in cooler temperatures



## Adumbration (Jun 23, 2007)

I've never owned Max Performance Summer tires before, so I'm reading through the reviews on TireRack for the Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetrics and the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s to try to decide between them. But something concerning has come up a few times in the reviews: a number of reviews state that performance of the tires significantly drops when the temperature is below 50 degrees F.

For example, here's a quote from a Pilot Sport PS2 review:



> Never drive aggressively in cold temperatures with these tires. They offer zero traction when the temps get cold, to the point that they are dangerous. When the temps get hot, they're fine, but performance quickly deterioates when the temperature goes below 50 degrees. The manufacturer recommends not driving in cold weather. They should reinforce this statement, perhaps putting it in big letters on the tire to definitely not drive in cold weather.


I live in Seattle, and temperatures below 50 degrees F are completely possible in the Summer. It's the middle of July, and it's 52 degrees F right now. I knew that Summer performance tires don't do well in cold, but I thought we were talking around freezing, not possible temperatures in the middle of Summer.

Are these reviewers crazy, or is 50 degrees F really the point at which performance starts to fall apart for these kind of tires?

For those of you that own these tires, below what temperature do you notice a drop in performance?

And how much performance is lost? Ever have a scary situation where you thought you had more traction that you really did because of a drop in temperature?


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

I live in weather like yours and have PS2s on my M3. I have never pushed the car in low temps enough to feel anything, but have generally used 40 as my caution temp.


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## Adumbration (Jun 23, 2007)

Thanks LMC.

I'd loved to see a graph which plots outside temperature vs. skid pad results for different kinds of tires. Some one has to have done a test like this.


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

That would be interesting, to be sure. Something like that should have been done by the one of German magazines.

Except that Germans no doubt are very, very careful to remove summer tires and put on winter tires at the right time. It would not be proper to deviate from the correct procedure.



Adumbration said:


> I'd loved to see a graph which plots outside temperature vs. skid pad results for different kinds of tires. Some one has to have done a test like this.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

i believe it's generally the transition point for summer to winter is 7C.


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

Nothing as scientific as you reference, but I did find a comparison of summer versus winter versus all-season tires in the December 2006 issue of *Car and Driver * magazine.

Summary: In snow, the winter tires were best, the all-seasons were not all that great and the high-performance summer tires really sucked. Surprised?



Adumbration said:


> I'd loved to see a graph which plots outside temperature vs. skid pad results for different kinds of tires. Some one has to have done a test like this.


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## HW (Dec 24, 2001)

LMC said:


> Nothing as scientific as you reference, but I did find a comparison of summer versus winter versus all-season tires in the December 2006 issue of *Car and Driver * magazine.
> 
> Summary: In snow, the winter tires were best, the all-seasons were not all that great and the high-performance summer tires really sucked. Surprised?


i think he was referring to just temperature. not with snow.


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## uncle ken (Feb 3, 2007)

Adumbration said:


> I live in Seattle, For those of you that own these tires, below what temperature do you notice a drop in performance?


I live in south Texas. In 12/2006 I drove to White Rock BC on PS2s. Went up I-5 to avoid snow. Although OR and WA were having typical seasonal weather I didn't seem to have a problem. My nephew, who was not experienced at driving such a powerful car, managed to hydroplane in some heavy ponding, even though tread depth was good. Whether this was temperature related I can't say - but it sure warmed up my shorts!

Fwiw on the return the pass on the OR-CA border was iced over forcing me to head for the coast at Eureka. Turned out to be the best part of the trip! I hear good things about Goodyear, the tires are several pounds heavier which is all unsprung weight. Otoh it sure is a better price! If Michelin made condoms no one could afford to boogie!


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## Adumbration (Jun 23, 2007)

HW said:


> i think he was referring to just temperature. not with snow.


Correct. I'm not planning on driving through through snow with Summer tires. I'm getting dedicated Winter tires.

The point is that Seattle weather can easily drop below 45 degrees F (7 degrees C) during the Summer, or at least during the 6 warmest months of the year.

Apparently no one drives Summer tires in 45 degrees F or lower temperature? :dunno:


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2003)

The few times that I have I didn't feel that it was 'dangerous', but I did have to re-test traction/braking levels a few times and adjust my driving accordingly.


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## Adumbration (Jun 23, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The few times that I have I didn't feel that it was 'dangerous', but I did have to re-test traction/braking levels a few times and adjust my driving accordingly.


Thanks Gary.

So, would you say that Max Performance Summer tires perform about the same as Ultra High Performance All Seasons in 40-50 degree F weather? Or are they substantially worse?


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2003)

Worse actually. I recall a test from a few years ago when we had a few max performance tires and a control Goodyear Eagle RS-A (a sub par high performance all season tire). It was about 50F, maybe 45F. The mid-grade all season tire actually outperformed the max performance summer tires at that temp in wet. Dry wasn't too far off either.


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## Adumbration (Jun 23, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Worse actually. I recall a test from a few years ago when we had a few max performance tires and a control Goodyear Eagle RS-A (a sub par high performance all season tire). It was about 50F, maybe 45F. The mid-grade all season tire actually outperformed the max performance summer tires at that temp in wet. Dry wasn't too far off either.


Interesting info, Gary. Thank you.

So you've piqued my interest in UHP all seasons. Consumer reports rated the Falken ZE 912 and the Nitto Neo Gen ZR highest in this category.

But it doesn't look like TireRack sells either Falken or Nitto :dunno:

When might you start carrying these brands?


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2003)

No time in the near future, sorry.


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## supermick (May 27, 2007)

Adumbration said:


> Interesting info, Gary. Thank you.
> 
> So you've piqued my interest in UHP all seasons. Consumer reports rated the Falken ZE 912 and the Nitto Neo Gen ZR highest in this category.
> 
> ...


I am in the same situation with temperature. Other tires to consider are:

Goodyear F1 A/S
General Exclaim (listed as A/S) on their website. And confirmed with a phone call.
Falken 512 A/S (fits the sport option on the 335i)
Yokahama UHP A/S (expensive but great reviews)

Post what you buy, I am right behind you on making this big decision.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Worse actually. I recall a test from a few years ago when we had a few max performance tires and a control Goodyear Eagle RS-A (a sub par high performance all season tire). It was about 50F, maybe 45F. The mid-grade all season tire actually outperformed the max performance summer tires at that temp in wet. Dry wasn't too far off either.


interesting. gary, what would you recommend as the switch over temp if you were running high performance snows, like the wintersport M3s or lm25s, at what point does switching to the snows get you more traction than running the summer tires?


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2003)

I would be okay with putting performance snows on a bit sooner as they will hold up better to middle temperatures, say around 50 degrees. However I would still try to conserve the treadwear on the snow tires for as long as possible by putting off installing them until the threat of snow becomes more real. If the ambient temps are starting to get near the 40's during much of your driving I'd likely make the switch from summers to winters. Since rubber compounds are pretty conplicated and different between individual summer tires, I would avoid making a claim about an ideal switchover temp.


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> I would be okay with putting performance snows on a bit sooner as they will hold up better to middle temperatures, say around 50 degrees. However I would still try to conserve the treadwear on the snow tires for as long as possible by putting off installing them until the threat of snow becomes more real. If the ambient temps are starting to get near the 40's during much of your driving I'd likely make the switch from summers to winters. Since rubber compounds are pretty conplicated and different between individual summer tires, I would avoid making a claim about an ideal switchover temp.


thanks, thats about where i switch over, when i get a solid week of nights in the 40s.


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## supermick (May 27, 2007)

Gary, with out going to summer tires and a second set of rims/all season tires, what would you recommend for the temperature problem of summer tires. I am ready to dump the run flats but cannot make a choice for the best uhp all season tires. PLUS I am scared that it will be a mistake and the 335i sports will not meet my exceptions by driving all seasons versus summer tires. Thanks for your thoughts.

225/40/18 f
255/35/18 r

Choices are Goodyear F1 all season (reviews say they tend to get noisy)
Yokahama advan s4 
General Exclaim UHP (all season on the general web site)
Falken 512 (beats or ties the general and yokahama in Consumer
reports test of UHP all season.)


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2003)

I like the Advan S4 best of any of the UHP A/S tires in that size for what you're looking for. Yes, they will be a step down from summer performance tires in dry grip and steering response, but these are still very high performance tires.


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## Adumbration (Jun 23, 2007)

supermick said:


> Post what you buy, I am right behind you on making this big decision.


I went with the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2.

I was tempted by the rave reviews of the Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric, but there were a number of complaints about flat spotting, especially in cooler temperatures. That would really annoy me, so I decided to go with the Michelins.

I currently have the stock Continental All Seasons on my 17" rims, so I can switch back to these whenever. I was planning on putting on dedicated winter tires, but now I'm thinking about something more balanced for my "winter" tires since they may see more than 6 months a year of use.


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

Given your situation, good move! :thumbup: It's hard to find much criticism of the PS2, except for price.



Adumbration said:


> I went with the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

The ADVAN S4s rock!


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