# Question about reliability issues....also need help deciding on which package to get



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

dorkus said:


> just wanted to thank everyone for the great advice in this thread. i am seriously considering a 325i or 325xi purchase. my first choice is actually an Acura TSX (don't kill me), but a bimmer it is not. the car is actually for my parents, to replace a '91 Accord that's falling apart.
> 
> safety is the #1 priority. after a nearly flawless driving record for many decades, my aging father has had 4 accidents in the last 2 years. two were related to skidding on slippery roads (once a patch of snow/ice, once rain), and we live on a sort of back road in Princeton, NJ where it does snow sometimes, so AWD is a plus (hence the xi consideration). i'm not so crazy about the higher cost and lower mileage of the xi though.
> 
> ...


-as far as visible wear and tear, the e46 seems to hold pretty well. In terms of what you can't see, its things like shock mounts, window regulars and control arm bushings that seem to go w/ greater frequency than they should.
-All of your reasons for steering your parents toward a TSX seem right-- but you said that they might get turned off by the 325 due to its size. AFAIK, the TSX is pretty much the same size-- so that would probably be out too due to size reasons. 
-It actually sounds to me like they might be happier w/ something like a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. they're a bit larger, they're safe, and they handle predictably. Is it just that your parents want to try something "different" or a little "sportier"?
-Overall, it sounds like there isn't much reason for them to go for the 325-- it'd be too flashy for them and might be less reliable.


----------



## numbersguy (May 21, 2003)

dorkus said:


> the car is actually for my parents.


Assuming that your dad is still capable of driving safely, do you think a small sedan is really the right choice for him? My mother-in-law is very pleased with her 4wd Lexus RX300, and I'm sure there must be a Toyota Highlander that is mechanically the same but at far less cost. Crash protection, driver visibility and user-friendliness are superior to most small sedans, including the 3 series.

I'm sure you want the best for your folks, but it almost sounds like you are trying to pick out your own future set of wheels with this purchase. Old people can be very trusting when seeking advice on a car purchase. Do the right thing for them.


----------



## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

damills said:


> Whats best/worse youve seen some deals for 1,2,3,4 yrs as a rough number, just curious.
> 
> Are used Z4's selling in your area?


We don't get many used Z4's, so it's hard to tell. There's one at the dealer now, and it's only there because the guy bought an SMG and hated it after he drove it. He kept it for a few months, but couldn't live with it, so he got a 6 speed instead.

As for the worst in resale right now, I might say it's the M3, coupe and especially convertible. There is a small, ever shrinking market for new M3 cabs, and used ones are even harder to push. Also, people just don't want to buy used M3s after all the rumors they've heard. The people that get hurt the most are the late model owners-- 2002 and 2003.

As for best resale right now, it's probably the 325xi. It's a very popular car here-- one of the only cars that we regularly sold out of. People want AWD 3 series, and there is a huge market for used 3's due to price. It's the perfect vehicle for alot of people. And up until now, they've been in short supply. In a few weeks, they'll start coming off lease en mass, and the bubble might start to burst. But, up until now, we've had every pre-owned 325xi sold before it even officially came in on trade. Every salesperson at the dealer has a few clients looking for a 325xi, and as soon as they hear one is coming in, they all rush to see who will be the first to sell it.


----------



## flashinthepan (Jul 25, 2003)

my 2 cents -

- Leather is leather - fake is fake, go real and do leather.

- Go 6-sp, shifting is a blast !

I agree with you the 2 doors look a wee bit nicer & sportier, but if you need 4 doors, you buy 4.

BTW your questions can really only be answered by the Boss

YOU !!!

All the best ! :thumbup:


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

hi gtvr6, robg, numbersguy:

i appreciate the feedback, your thoughts echo my own doubts exactly. my dad is practical and frugal, but he does enjoy a good drive. while talking to him about a new car the other day, we of course discussed safety and reliability, but he added, "you want to have a car you enjoy driving though, i like a little sporty feeling." both he and my mother really liked the road manners of a little VW Golf we had several years ago, it was a POS reliability-wise but it had a bit of German driving flavor and was very nimble. so, while he isn't looking for an M3 or anything, i think he will appreciate the handling of the BMW. guess i will just have to take him for a spin one of these days. 

numbersguy, you also caught me a bit there.  while the car is primarily for my parents, i will have the opportunity to drive the car as well and they are comfortable having me make the final decision... so i'm trying to find something that meets all their needs AND will give me a reason to visit more often.  (i'm also probably going to pay for most of it, possibly an x-mas gift to the 'rents.) that's why i picked the Acura and 325i - they're both safe, very well-rounded vehicles that are above average (in the case of the 325, way above average) in the fun-to-drive scale. my dad is a very, very safe driver (as is my mom), but as they get older their reflexes and such are slipping a bit. for a good year or so, my first choice for them was indeed a Lexus RX300 like you suggest, and i checked out a Highlander recently which is selling at a really good price, below invoice (Honda Pilot has really taken the wind out of its sales). but, i am not totally convinced an SUV like that is safer than a 325. yes it has size/mass to its advantage in a crash, but other aspects are not necessarily safer. in particular, a SUV is a lot heavier and higher, making it harder to control and stop in an emergency situation. 

also, my parents would like to have a smaller car for everyday commuting, since we already have a minivan. my mom's favorite commuter was actually the VW Golf, and the '91 Accord is a good size as well. i was looking at the new Accord, but it is a little on the big side, and to get all the safety features i want (side curtain bags, traction control) i'd have to get an EX V6 which pushes $27k, same as the TSX. Camry is also on the large size, and it doesn't seem to be available with stability/traction control. the TSX is a perfect size, just a tad bigger inside than the 325 and very similar to my old Accord. my long-term plan is to replace the Accord for now with a compact-ish sedan, and replace the Previa with a larger SUV down the road.

(as an aside, i'm getting a lot of peer pressure from my friend who drove me around in his Steel Blue 330i PP. he knows a lot about cars, but thinks BMW is the only car to buy, so you guys are a breath of fresh air. )

i guess i should also keep in mind that my parent's don't drive a whole lot, mostly short distances to work/errands, and will stay well under 10k miles per year. so perhaps they won't get to really take advantage of the 325. OTOH, the roads around my house are pretty curvy, and with the low mileage i suspect a car will last a very, very long time (our Previa still hasn't broken 100k after 10 years), so perhaps a BMW is worth the investment... as you can see, i'm still very much in the balance. :dunno: 

apologies if i'm thinking out loud here and wasting words... again, i appreciate everyone's opinions immensely.


----------



## gtvr6 (Apr 19, 2002)

Another thought is to take another look at VW's. I've always been a fan and I've heard they've improved there quality. Just a thought.

As an aside, I agree about the roads in Princeton. I'm there about once a month to see my client and I enjoy Dey Road. It's such a pleasure to drive down that road on a crisp morning when no one is around. (Easy to double the posted speed limit....not that I've done that...  )

Have you looked at the Nissan Altima. Not as solid feeling as the Honda, but I think it's a nice car....cheap, quick and safe. My dad likes his and if you want a bit more power, the SE is good choice.


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

gtvr6 said:


> Another thought is to take another look at VW's. I've always been a fan and I've heard they've improved there quality. Just a thought.
> 
> As an aside, I agree about the roads in Princeton. I'm there about once a month to see my client and I enjoy Dey Road. It's such a pleasure to drive down that road on a crisp morning when no one is around. (Easy to double the posted speed limit....not that I've done that...  )
> 
> Have you looked at the Nissan Altima. Not as solid feeling as the Honda, but I think it's a nice car....cheap, quick and safe. My dad likes his and if you want a bit more power, the SE is good choice.


you know, a Passat 4Motion would have been just about perfect, were it not for the fact that i am still leery of VW quality. my mother has two co-workers who have Passats, one is fine, one is constantly in and out of the shop, and i have read awful reports all over the internet. even if the 2004 models are better, i'm not sure i'm willing to take that chance. same for the A4, which is also way too claustraphobic inside, and the salespeople need to take their finger out of their asses (pardon the language).

i am not so crazy about the Altima, tho it is a nice car... not big on the styling, size is a little big, and Nissan's safety ratings tend to be below those of Honda and Toyota. if i were to go that route, i'd probably just opt for the Accord or TSX, or even a G35.

where in Princeton is Dey Road? sorry can't remember off hand... my parents live on Province Line Road, between Princeton and Lawrence township... lots of nice roads back their. unfortunately not so good in winter either.

you guys may very well be right, the 325 may be a little too sporty/glitzy for my parents... i was just commenting to my friend how weird my dad (a small unassumming asian man in his late 60s, though in great shape) would look in a bimmer, not that he cares. damn BMW for making such a great car and throwing off my decision-making process! i should have never driven that 323Ci back in 2000... *sigh*


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

numbersguy said:


> Assuming that your dad is still capable of driving safely, do you think a small sedan is really the right choice for him?


If he's going to be on icy roads a lot, I'd say a good AWD sedan would be a better choice than a larger (more mass, more inertia, higher center of gravity) vehicle. That and a seperate set of snows on steels... My ex had gotten his ex a 330ix for upstate New York; she is absolutely not a performance driver, and that car has been great for her.


----------



## gtvr6 (Apr 19, 2002)

where in Princeton is Dey Road? sorry can't remember off hand... my parents live on Province Line Road, between Princeton and Lawrence township... lots of nice roads back their. unfortunately not so good in winter either.

I'm from NY, I only go to Princeton once a month. Dey Road falls between Princeton and Plainsboro....

Good luck with the decision. You can't go wrong with the BMW, but it should be the AWD. Otherwise, you guys might want to stick to the TSX....and eventually get a 325/330Ci for yourself..... :bigpimp:


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

The Roadstergal said:


> If he's going to be on icy roads a lot, I'd say a good AWD sedan would be a better choice than a larger (more mass, more inertia, higher center of gravity) vehicle. That and a seperate set of snows on steels... My ex had gotten his ex a 330ix for upstate New York; she is absolutely not a performance driver, and that car has been great for her.


that's exactly what my 330i-owner friend said, tho he's obviously biased.  he keeps singing the same tune - low mass, low center of gravity, neutral handling and snow tires are all you need come wintertime. i'm gradually coming around to his point of view. i hate big SUVs anyway. 

the roads around Princeton are not terribly icy, but when it snows it does sometimes take a while for it to be cleared around my parents' house. they had their first snow accident in winter '01, just a few months after moving to that neighborhood from a better-plowed area closer to Route 1.


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

dorkus said:


> that's exactly what my 330i-owner friend said, tho he's obviously biased.  he keeps singing the same tune - low mass, low center of gravity, neutral handling and snow tires are all you need come wintertime. i'm gradually coming around to his point of view. i hate big SUVs anyway.
> 
> the roads around Princeton are not terribly icy, but when it snows it does sometimes take a while for it to be cleared around my parents' house. they had their first snow accident in winter '01, just a few months after moving to that neighborhood from a better-plowed area closer to Route 1.


I definitley agree that a small to midsize sedan is preferable to an SUV like the highlander or pilot. Your reasoning seems to be thorough and sound. If your father feels comfortable driving the BMW, then great. Personally, I agree w/ your friend -- I'd rather be driving a maneuverable RWD car w/ snows over FWD car w/ all-seasons.


----------



## waxhaw (May 5, 2003)

dorkus said:


> My feelings for bimmers are volatile. Being raised in a frugal, anti-materialistic family...


So, renouncing capitalism from the comfortable, leafy enclave of Princeton, eh? :stickpoke Are you sure you don't want to move to Newark in order to have a higher level of empathy with the oppressed?

OK, OK, I'm twisting your tail a little. I had political misgivings about purchasing a another BMW myself, from a very different ideological direction. I was/am irate  at Germany's lack of support on our action against Iraq. But then, BMW has made a substantial investment in the U.S. in its South Carolina plant (only 95 miles from me!), and so... well, let's just say you can justify anything to yourself if you work hard enough at it. :rofl:

Buy what you want, or, more to the point, what your father would want. If he is indeed frugal, he'll hang onto his next car for a long time, and a BMW would be a good choice considering its durability. Others have questioned the advisability of a small car, out of concerns for its crashworthiness; I would simply counter that crashworthiness is only part of the equation, and that crash avoidance is more important. Other than true "exotic" cars, BMW has just about the best brakes and handling in the business.

You might consider a 525i if it's not too much of a financial stretch, and if "smallness" is a concern. Yes, it's stickered at 10 large more than a 325i (narrower difference compared to a 325ix, of course), but with the new 5er body style coming out  , I'll bet you could drive a pretty hard bargain on an '03 model. Maybe even a dealer demo or "executive car."

Or, you could go with a 760Li, and Dad could truly be a "Limosine Liberal."


----------



## chsu74 (Aug 29, 2003)

dorkus said:


> just wanted to thank everyone for the great advice in this thread. i am seriously considering a 325i or 325xi purchase. my first choice is actually an Acura TSX (don't kill me), but a bimmer it is not. the car is actually for my parents, to replace a '91 Accord that's falling apart.


Hi dorkus,

After reading everybody's replies I have a suggestion:

If you want something unpretentious, reliable, safe within your said budget for your parents, then I would recommend the Subaru wagon or sedan.

You have few different trims available from AWD to 4 or 6 cylinder engines. Its roomy and reliable.

I would not have recommended this car 6 years ago because I looked at them and hated them. However, the current generation is impressive and have gotten great reviews. I currently drive a 2001 325XI and love it. Living in the Northeast, having AWD is an added saftey feature. It give you better handling in both rain and snow. People usually refer AWD as a snow related feature but I feel driving in the rain with AWD gives me more confidence.

BTW, because you have a 4 year/50K warranty and full service for the first 36k miles from BMW; the maintainance cost during that period zero. You just add gas and go. If you buy other cars, aside from Audi, you have maintainance costs that is not included in the purchase price.

My get great mileage on my car. 30 to 31 hwy and 24 avg. I like to push my car also but not completely reckless. The car is a lot of fun. I have a 6 mile commute to work on back roads so my average is a good reference.

If you buy the 325, I recommend a manual because the automatic does not have enough push paired with the smaller engine.

Whatever decision you make, I think the Subaru would fit your parents' tastes the most.

Good Luck!!


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

waxhaw said:


> So, renouncing capitalism from the comfortable, leafy enclave of Princeton, eh?


pardon me?
i'm not sure what you're trying to allude to (even jokingly). yes, Princeton is upper-class, but my mother is a nurse and my father is a retired professor and aspiring writer. we moved to Princeton from Washington St. because of its convenient location between philly and nyc (my brother and i attended conservatories). my father got his PhD in comparative literature from the University here so he had a long-time affinity for the area as well. we like Princeton not for its high per-capita income but for its charm, beauty, and culture - it's a relative oasis in the oft-maligned state of New Jersey.



> OK, OK, I'm twisting your tail a little. I had political misgivings about purchasing a another BMW myself, from a very different ideological direction. I was/am irate  at Germany's lack of support on our action against Iraq.


hm, no comment.....

on a more relevant note, i was not even considering the 5 (much less 7) series cars... the 3 is already a stretch budget-wise so i think it goes without saying the 5 and 7 are well out of reach. i also don't think they're necessarily better fits for my parents - they would like a nimble but safe compact/mid-size car for daily commuting, something my mother can park in the compact spaces at the hospital garage. as i mentioned earlier, they really liked a VW Golf, so perhaps the 3 is plenty big enough... altho the car is on the compact size i have to say the use of interior space is excellent - my gf refers to it at the "PURRRRFECT size".


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

chsu74 said:


> If you want something unpretentious, reliable, safe within your said budget for your parents, then I would recommend the Subaru wagon or sedan.


hi chsu74,

you are absoultely right, those Subarus are solid cars and would be great fits for my parents. my dad would really have no problem w/a Subaru, but i think my mom would like something a little more stylish/luxurious. i would also like my parents' next car to be something on the luxurious side, since they are getting older and they deserve a little pampering. the Subaru Legacy is a nice car but a little crude compared to a BMW or Acura TSX methinks... altho i will admit the 2005 Legacy looks pretty hot. i'm doing some research on it now, not sure i can hold out til next spring when it's released but i'll try.


----------



## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

dorkus said:


> hi chsu74,
> 
> you are absoultely right, those Subarus are solid cars and would be great fits for my parents. my dad would really have no problem w/a Subaru, but i think my mom would like something a little more stylish/luxurious. i would also like my parents' next car to be something on the luxurious side, since they are getting older and they deserve a little pampering. the Subaru Legacy is a nice car but a little crude compared to a BMW or Acura TSX methinks... altho i will admit the 2005 Legacy looks pretty hot. i'm doing some research on it now, not sure i can hold out til next spring when it's released but i'll try.


Curious-- what do you mean by "on the luxurious side"? Do you mean in terms of style, quality of materials, fit & finish? Or do you mean in terms of comfort? Reason I ask is that the 3 series is not necessarliy "luxurious" from a comfort standpoint. The standard seats aren't very supportive to your legs-- and both the std and sport seats are quite stiff, and a little flat (not enough lower back support). Even I, who am young and don't normally have back problems get back pains after an hour driving my car due to the stiff and not-so-well contoured seats. I also find that the dead-pedal is on too steep an angle-- the ones in the e38, and e39 are more comfortable. These concerns might not be relevant if your parents mostly just use the car around town. I think the best cars in this price range for being comfortable while you drive are probably the Volvo S60 and Saab 9-3. I don't know how the TSX measures up in terms of seat comfort--although Hondas also tend to have small, hard seats.


----------



## chsu74 (Aug 29, 2003)

dorkus said:


> hi chsu74,
> 
> you are absoultely right, those Subarus are solid cars and would be great fits for my parents. my dad would really have no problem w/a Subaru, but i think my mom would like something a little more stylish/luxurious. i would also like my parents' next car to be something on the luxurious side, since they are getting older and they deserve a little pampering. the Subaru Legacy is a nice car but a little crude compared to a BMW or Acura TSX methinks... altho i will admit the 2005 Legacy looks pretty hot. i'm doing some research on it now, not sure i can hold out til next spring when it's released but i'll try.


Hey dorkus,

If your parents are willing to buy an used car with 10k then Audi A4 3.0 would be a good buy. The 1.8T are the problem vehicles because the turbo engine is high maintenance. There are really no problems with audi's normal aspirated engine. I have read on the Audi forums that timing belt seems to be something that needs replaced every 60 to 90K for all of their cars.

Saabs are good in the snow and you can get a good deal on them....

I would not recommend a VW because the Passat 4 motion would cost at least $28K and you should just buy an Audi instead.


----------



## chsu74 (Aug 29, 2003)

robg said:


> Curi The standard seats aren't very supportive to your legs-- and both the std and sport seats are quite stiff, and a little flat (not enough lower back support). Even I, who am young and don't normally have back problems get back pains after an hour driving my car due to the stiff and not-so-well contoured seats. I think the best cars in this price range for being comfortable while you drive are probably the Volvo S60 and Saab 9-3. I don't know how the TSX measures up in terms of seat comfort--although Hondas also tend to have small, hard seats.


I agree with robg. I don't have SP on my 325XI and after riding in the car for 2-3 hrs my back achs. Thank God for cruise control where I can shift around and sit in a different position. Your parents would definitly feel it...

Good call on the Saab 9-3....


----------



## dorkus (Sep 4, 2003)

robg said:


> Curious-- what do you mean by "on the luxurious side"? Do you mean in terms of style, quality of materials, fit & finish? Or do you mean in terms of comfort?


good question... i guess for my parents my definition of "luxury" would be a reasonably stylish car with excellent fit & finish, solid build quality, refined road manners and smooth, quiet ride. (yeah, i know, isn't that what everyone wants? ) but these qualifications are relative - you have to remember they're driving a '91 Accord right now. i want something that's a step up (but not too much) in luxury from a run-of-the-mill Accord, with a little better handling and smoother ride. the '03 Accord would probably do but i think it's a little bulky and it is too plasticky inside - would like something a little more "special," thus my taking to the TSX, which is exceptionally well-finished.

you raise a good point about seat comfort. i personally found the 323Ci seats very comfy, but i wasn't really in them long enough. i had a hard time getting adjusted to the seats in my friend's 330i ZHP but i didn't really know how to adjust them - the rear bench was very comfy tho. the comfort of the front seats in the '91 Accord is passable, it does tend to cramp my dad's back after an hour or so. what's most comfortable for him actually is something upright like a minivan or SUV, but we already have one of those - the new car will primarily be for shorter commutes. the TSX seats and seating position seemed pretty good, but i didn't really check it out thoroughly.



chsu74 said:


> If your parents are willing to buy an used car with 10k then Audi A4 3.0 would be a good buy. The 1.8T are the problem vehicles because the turbo engine is high maintenance. There are really no problems with audi's normal aspirated engine. I have read on the Audi forums that timing belt seems to be something that needs replaced every 60 to 90K for all of their cars.


hm, yeah i had a feeling the 1.8T was the lemon in the line, but buying a used Audi still makes me a little nervous. i suppose i could buy an extended warranty, but i am still not sure... i will look into it tho. i think my parents might not like the cramped feel of the interior - the 325 and TSX feel much more open and airy even tho they are not all that much bigger. the TSX in particular feels very large inside for its size.


----------



## chsu74 (Aug 29, 2003)

dorkus said:


> you raise a good point about seat comfort. i personally found the 323Ci seats very comfy, but i wasn't really in them long enough. i had a hard time getting adjusted to the seats in my friend's 330i ZHP but i didn't really know how to adjust them - the rear bench was very comfy tho. the comfort of the front seats in the '91 Accord is passable, it does tend to cramp my dad's back after an hour or so. what's most comfortable for him actually is something upright like a minivan or SUV, but we already have one of those - the new car will primarily be for shorter commutes. the TSX seats and seating position seemed pretty good, but i didn't really check it out thoroughly.


Hi! My friend has the new A4 3.0 6spd. The ride is completely different than my BMW. The Audi A4 ride is more sedan like and the BMW is more sport like. I think your parents would prefer the Audi ride than the BMW ride. It is softer but still retains great feel.

Look at this link to see if you find any problems or you can ask owners to find out really if Audis are lemons. My brother who lives in Princeton drives a 2001 1.8T and wants to mod it so reliability is not an issue as he will be putting new parts in.

http://audiforums.com/


----------

