# Recnt experience with First/Business class to Munich, anyone?



## boothguy (Feb 1, 2007)

All:

Once BMW okays one of my dates, I'm going to be jumping on plane tickets pretty fast and wanted to be prepared. I'd like to get your opinions on First/Business class to Munich these days (hooray for points). Looks like the available choices from San Diego will be British Airways, Lufthansa, Delta, Air Canada, United, American and some carrier called Brussels Airways. The domestic leg for BA and Lufthansa will be on US flag carriers who codeshare, but obviously it's the transatlantic leg that counts.

All opinions appreciated.


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## fishskis (Dec 18, 2004)

British Airways First Class is great. Their Business is also excellent; fully flat beds. Note though that british Air charges very high taxes and fees, especially for First and Business - like $500-700 for a roundtrip award ticket.

Lufthansa First has on older cabin, though they are transitioning to new cabins; not sure what the schedule is. Lufthansa First seats are very comfortable, fully flat, but not private and they are older. The Lufthansa First experience at the Frankfurt airport and Munich airport is extraordinary - Incredible lounges and VIP treatment - they will drive you directly to your plane in a Porsche or a Mercedes. They even have completely separate passport control - it is really like flying privately. It is also really nice to land in Munich instead of having to connect in Europe.

Lufthansa business seats are angled flat; a lot of people don't like these. Service is fine.

American has weird Business Class seats and configuration, and nicer First Class seats; I would highly recommend British over American. I have had some really bad service on American in the last couple of years.

Delta's capacity restrictions are ridiculous - it is impossible to book seats unless you use double the miles normally required. I gave up on Delta a few years ago.

If it were me, I would do British First or Business, especially if you want to stopover in London, or Lufthansa First.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Do yourself a favor and fly as close to non-stop as possible. Once you have a shortlist, see what planes will be servicing the route, and what seat/beds they provide. Choose the one closest to a horizontal bed. If you are more concerned, check out reviews at www.flyertalk.com or www.airliners.net.

If you don't fly up front much, this will likely be a rare treat (I used to really look forward to Business and First) - and you need read no further. If you want reality...

No plane will ever be as comfortable or quiet as your own bed, have food comparable to a local top restaurant, or have an entertainment system worth a damn. You also won't beat jet lag (it will be reduced however), or the close and personal attention afforded by the TSA (another reason to not have too many connections). And this is still my opinion after taking LH and SQ First on my last 3 EDs, using the car service to the plane, dining in the Private Room etc.


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## boothguy (Feb 1, 2007)

Had already done some homework on skytrax.com where BA seemed to get the consistently highest marks. The news about the steep fees is a bit disconcerting, so will have to look at that. Their biggest disadvantage is that the routing would be San Diego/ Chicago/ LHR/ MUC. Yecch. I've flown up front plenty of times - just haven't had an opportunity since the carriers started moving to the new-style First/Business cabins.


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

We regularly use the nonstop SFO-MUC flight and return on LH, flying in business class. It is on an Airbus, but I am blanking on whether it is a 330 or 340. Business class is good, sometimes great, but not perfect. What I am about to write does NOT apply to the SFO-FRA flights (on a 747) or to the UA-codeshares.

The schedule is good if you are going to stay in MUC, but for continuation flights, the MUC arrival is sometimes too late for a good connection. For example, we had to stay overnight at the airport Kempinski to get a connecting flight to VIE, and the same might apply for other points further East.

The ground service is OK, LH gives you complimentary access to the UA Red Carpet Club inside SFO security, but not to their own Senator's Club, which is for FC or Senator-level people only. Check-in is via single-class lines and usually moves right along. In-flight service is reasonably good--the food and wine vary a bit more in quality than I would like to see.

One big advantage is that LH has drive-up check-in for First and Business Class at MUC. This makes everything move quite efficiently for the return. (We usually have checked luggage.) The business class lounge in the terminal is OK, but not fantastic.

The biggest downside, in my mind, is that LH seems to train its people to be very professional, efficient, and pleasant so long as everything goes well. But whenever the "system" breaks down they seem unable to respond well. I have seen LH ground people and air crew treat passengers poorly when there are delays, equipment problems, security glitches, re-routings, etc. My view is that those are the times they should do especially well, but it is generally not the case.

So, why do I keep returning to the same routing? Two reasons: (1) the daily nonstops are the most convenient option for that route and (2) with the Amex PTS 2-for-1 business class deal, it is almost reasonable in pricing.


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## 11gt535 (Jan 16, 2011)

I booked about 50 days in advance and Delta told me there were no business class upgrade seats available at any number of points and/or fare level to Munich within my dates. It used to be you could use double points to get around the capacity limits. The only thing that seems to work is using certificates at full coach fares which works out to around 50% off once Delta bestows them upon you. Even coach it made no sense to use points to buy the tickets... it was nearly 100,000 miles and around $150 in fees each ticket. Delta has not impressed me at all the last few years.


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## Mace14 (Mar 10, 2007)

I'm using Delta. 150,000 for 767-400ER Business class Tampa to Munich in Apr. Taxes are $115. 
Delta has just finished upgrading all of it's flights to Munich to lay-flat seating. I've had very good experience with Delta on international flights but their Business Class isn't one of the very upper-tier services (i.e., no pajamas, robes, or neck massages). I doubt Delta has direct San Diego-Munich but it should be easy enough to go San Diego-Atlanta-Munich. 

The only concern would be the return trip when you need to make sure you have adequate time between flights to account for Customs. Hartsfeld airport has one of the worst workforces in the nation and you can have several flights standing in the customs line with only two of twenty or so lanes open with customs workers just standing around chatting to each other. Many times it's fine but I've had several bad delays there and the response was "there's always another flight you can take". I'd go with a minimum two-hour layover. You may not need it but it's better to be safe. 

I've been watching reward availability on Delta for a couple of months and it's stayed very consistent between Atlanta and Munich or Stuttgart with rates of 150,000 to 200,000 still available for Business (75,000 for coach). These seem consistent with all of Delta's other European rates and I had no problems at all finding many flight options.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

ATL as an international connection also is bad with luggage - something to do with the international and domestic terminals not being securely segregated. Plan on a 2 hour connection from international to domestic through ATL (at least).


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## mason (Jun 8, 2006)

There are many things you need to sort out when you look at all these airlines. Delta and Air Canada, First = Business. But LH, UA, BA and AA do have 3 separate class. Upgrade by points usually allows you to upgrade one class. I'm not sure if you can buy economy and up 2 classes. 

As for the flights themselves, first thing first, forget about Air Canada. Trasnfer in Calgary might be a little better. If your connection in Toronto or Montreal, it is a nightmare. Long line for passport checks, long walking......

If you fly LH on 747, seats are old. LH airbus are better bet. I haven't flown UA and AA for a while, I can't comment on it. BA business is ok. Seats are a little tight, layout is weird. Delta is quite good and service is not bad. So, decide where do you want to connect: SFO, LAX, ATL are good bet for you.


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## boothguy (Feb 1, 2007)

Most of the connections are coming up SAN-ORD-MUC except for BA which is SAN-ORD-LHA-MUC. Not loving that one. 

I've flown Delta's Business/First through ATL a few times but not in the last three years or so. Had to hustle last time to make the connection, but we normally fly with no checked baggage. Given the misadventures trying to ship my 'vert's windblocker last time and it getting stuck in Customs in Munich, which necessitated a nearly two-hour detour the first day of the trip (bad omen - glance at my trip report), I plan to check the windblocker this time. Which of course means it wil either be the last piece off the plane or will get lost.

B-y's SAN-SFO-MUC routing will appeal to The Spousal Unit - have to look into that one...

Anybody else?


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## FastMarkA (Apr 21, 2008)

boothguy said:


> Looks like the available choices from San Diego will be British Airways, Lufthansa, Delta, Air Canada, United, American and some carrier called Brussels Airways. The domestic leg for BA and Lufthansa will be on US flag carriers who codeshare, but obviously it's the transatlantic leg that counts.


BA is launching non-stop service SAN-LHR on June 1. The aircraft will be a 777, but it's a "3-cabin" -- meaning Business, Premium Economy, and Economy. There is no "First" class. Lufthansa does not fly to SAN; their Californian gateways are LAX and SFO.



fishskis said:


> British Airways First Class is great. Their Business is also excellent; fully flat beds.


Agreed. Although I would say BA First is only "good," not great. The staff can get a little lazy.



fishskis said:


> Lufthansa First has on older cabin, though they are transitioning to new cabins; not sure what the schedule is.


The new cabins are on the 380s. They are just starting to roll them out on ONE 340 and ONE 330 for testing. Very doubtful the OP will have a chance to ride in a new cabin given when he wants to pick up his new car.



fishskis said:


> Lufthansa First seats are very comfortable, fully flat, but not private and they are older.


The seats are comfortable. When in "bed" mode, however, they are on a slight angle (say, 175-177 degrees). Picky, yes. But I notice it. If the OP is into sleeping well over food/drink, then LH might not be the best choice. (Note that LH serves caviar in First, but BA does not.)



fishskis said:


> The Lufthansa First experience at the Frankfurt airport and Munich airport is extraordinary - Incredible lounges and VIP treatment - they will drive you directly to your plane in a Porsche or a Mercedes. They even have completely separate passport control - it is really like flying privately.


Agreed that LH F ground services are great. Note that you only get driven in the MB/Porsche at FRA if: you depart from the First Class Terminal or if you arrive at a remote stand (instead of taking the bus with the common folk). At MUC, since the First Class Lounge is in the main terminal, you will only be picked up in a limo if you arrive at a remote stand.

Read about the LH First Class Terminal at FRA. If you've never flown LH in F, I would go out of my way to make a good 4-5 hour connection at FRA so you can experience the LH F Terminal.



fishskis said:


> It is also really nice to land in Munich instead of having to connect in Europe.


For sure!



fishskis said:


> Lufthansa business seats are angled flat; a lot of people don't like these. Service is fine.


Agreed.



fishskis said:


> American has weird Business Class seats and configuration, and nicer First Class seats; I would highly recommend British over American. I have had some really bad service on American in the last couple of years.


Agreed on BA >>>> AA. Plus, since you will likely have to connect at LHR anyway, most of BA operates out of T5, while AA operates out of T3. Terminal transfers at LHR are a wretched pain.



fishskis said:


> If it were me, I would do British First or Business, especially if you want to stopover in London, or Lufthansa First.


I would try to get on LH First directly to MUC. These would be my routing preferences:

SAN-LAX-MUC (UA/LH)
SAN-SFO-MUC (UA/LH)
SAN-LAX/SFO-JFK-MUC (UA/LH) (UA's LAX/SFO-JFK is their "premium service" -- not bad for a transcon, and LH operates its own First Class lounge at JFK)
SAN-ORD-MUC (UA/LH)
SAN-EWR-MUC (CO/LH)



b-y said:


> We regularly use the nonstop SFO-MUC flight and return on LH, flying in business class. It is on an Airbus, but I am blanking on whether it is a 330 or 340.


It's an A340-600.



b-y said:


> The ground service is OK, LH gives you complimentary access to the UA Red Carpet Club inside SFO security, but not to their own Senator's Club, which is for FC or Senator-level people only.


There's no Senator club at SFO. But at Munich, you're correct. Business Class passengers (who are not Star Gold) use the Business Lounge, not Senator Lounge. Senator has a little extra food, but they're not that much different. Note that if you are flying First on LH from SFO, you can use the UA First Class Lounge.



mason said:


> If you fly LH on 747, seats are old. LH airbus are better bet.


While the fuselages might be newer in some cases on the A330s/340s over the 747s, these aircraft all have the exact same product in First and Biz.

Another carrier that has respectable service in the Star Alliance is Swiss, and they just recently launched service SFO-ZRH. Connecting at ZRH is a relatively painless experience. Their First and Business on the A340 they operate on the SFO-ZRH route both have lie-flat seats. Be careful, though, if you connect to an older 340 (i.e. ex-BOS or MIA), it will have angled lie-flat seats. Swiss A330-300s (not -200s) are all new and have lie-flat seats in First/Biz.

Bottom line, if I were the OP in SAN, and I were getting a new BMW, it's kind of a celebratory time so my spoiled consultant a$$ would want to fly in a true First Class cabin. I also hate to connect after landing in Europe, so the idea of a USA > MUC flight is very appealing to me. LH is the only option for that.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

I've been recently flying United's new C class seats (lay flat) and they are pretty good. When traveling to Germany I take UA 934 and UA 935 to LHR, and then make the easy Star Alliance transfer in LHR's terminal 1 to a short Lufthansa flight to MUC, DUS, FRA or wherever I need to be. United's service is just okay, but 934 leaves LAX in the early evening allowing me to sleep most of the way to London. Using these flights gets me into Germany mid-afternoon so hotel check-in is assured.

SAN>LAX>LHR>MUC might be something to look into, or you could make a drive up the coast and avoid the SAN>LAX. I understand UA is now offering shuttle flights from Carlsbad/ Palomar to LAX too.

Dick


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

The one thing I don't like about the new UA C seats is that they are a little restricted in length (I'm 6'1"). I couldn't stretch out fully. That may be a consideration.


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## mason (Jun 8, 2006)

FastMarkA said:


> Another carrier that has respectable service in the Star Alliance is Swiss, and they just recently launched service SFO-ZRH. Connecting at ZRH is a relatively painless experience. Their First and Business on the A340 they operate on the SFO-ZRH route both have lie-flat seats. Be careful, though, if you connect to an older 340 (i.e. ex-BOS or MIA), it will have angled lie-flat seats. Swiss A330-300s (not -200s) are all new and have lie-flat seats in First/Biz.


Ah, totally forgot about Swiss. It offers true flat at Business class.


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## FastMarkA (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree that UA's new Business and First (both lie-flat) are good hard products. UA's soft product, however, isn't up to par with LH, Swiss, BA, etc.

Also, you are only guaranteed new First/Biz on UA 747s and 767s. The 777s are in the process of being retrofitted, so if you book a 777, it's a crapshoot whether you're get old UA (lie-flat in F but a lazy boy chair in C) or new UA (lie flat in both F and C).

I think UA did a spectacular job, for a U.S. carrier, with the hard product in their premium cabins. The First and Biz are better than AA, DL, US, and CO. 

@Chrischeung: were you on a 747 upper deck by chance? If so, it's well known that, while the upper deck is nicer for privacy, those seats are a little closer together and thus the bed is shorter.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

FastMarkA said:


> @Chrischeung: were you on a 747 upper deck by chance? If so, it's well known that, while the upper deck is nicer for privacy, those seats are a little closer together and thus the bed is shorter.


767. I honestly can't attest to a night's sleep in it though, since it was a plane substitution for a short domestic daytime flight due to IRROPS.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

I won't try to address every point here but since I've flown in First very recently (in the last few weeks) on LH and AA TATL and AA TCON, I'd like to make a few observations.

First, wherever possible, go direct. If you must conect and if you can connect in the U.S. versus in the EU, do so.

LH's soft product in First is very impressive. I enjoyed my flight back immensely (I ignored most of the service on the flight over). The current First Class seat, slowly being replaced, is ok but not great.

AA's hard product, the Flagship Suite, despite its age, is extremely comfortable and the swivel chair and desk make it great for doing some work during daytime flights. I know that a lot of people pick on U.S. carriers' premium class soft products, but I fly AA TATL maybe 5 or 6 times a year to LHR and the service has always been very good. The food was better on Lufthansa but, while I enjoy it, I am interested mostly in space, comfort, and privacy. 

Concerning the angle of the flat seat in LH and AA business class, since I've had the opportunity to fly both in the past year as well, I have found that I slid down more in the LH business class seat than in the AA seat. With the Lufthansa seat, I found I was more comfortable NOT in the lie-flat position incidentally. In the AA NGBC seat, I was able to sleep comfortably.

Below a few images from Lufthansa's FC service two weeks ago.


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## ViaCorsa (Oct 1, 2010)

Mace14 said:


> I'm using Delta. 150,000 for 767-400ER Business class Tampa to Munich in Apr. Taxes are $115.
> Delta has just finished upgrading all of it's flights to Munich to lay-flat seating. I've had very good experience with Delta on international flights but their Business Class isn't one of the very upper-tier services (i.e., no pajamas, robes, or neck massages). I doubt Delta has direct San Diego-Munich but it should be easy enough to go San Diego-Atlanta-Munich.
> 
> The only concern would be the return trip when you need to make sure you have adequate time between flights to account for Customs. Hartsfeld airport has one of the worst workforces in the nation and you can have several flights standing in the customs line with only two of twenty or so lanes open with customs workers just standing around chatting to each other. Many times it's fine but I've had several bad delays there and the response was "there's always another flight you can take". I'd go with a minimum two-hour layover. You may not need it but it's better to be safe.
> ...


That sums up my experiences as well. I have taken DL 130 & DL131 between Atlanta & Munich since the mid 1990s (back when Delta used L-1011s).

Cost cuts of late show and are disappointing, but is just part of the world today. I have had problems booking tickets and upgrades, but I try to book at least 4-6 months in advance (just to avoid those problems). I have missed at least 3 flights out of Atlanta to Phoenix because of delays in Atlanta over the last 15 years..but always caught the next.

There were 2 instances of the flights from Atlanta to Munich being canceled. Once I was routed to NYC to Munich and the other send us from Atlanta to Stuttgart.

I'm not really happy with Delta turning my points into points that expire. But I use AMX and use AMX points to upgrade to business on Delta these days.

And yes, they (at least last year) still served the Vanilla sundae with toppings for dessert! :thumbup:


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> I try to book at least 4-6 months in advance


Wow, that far in advance. I find myself planning trips a week or two in advance with the exception of speaking engagements which are usually very far in advance.



[email protected] said:


> And yes, they (at least last year) still served the Vanilla sundae with toppings for dessert! :thumbup:


American serves the sundae (from the sundae cart) in AFS First Class and I went for one on my flight back from SFO a few days ago (what the airlines need is a gzm on board). Lufthansa's first class dessert for the second meal service was a Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte.


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## ViaCorsa (Oct 1, 2010)

JSpira said:


> Wow, that far in advance. I find myself planning trips a week or two in advance with the exception of speaking engagements which are usually very far in advance.


Yup. That far in advance. Trips revolve around children's vacations, book deadlines, and annual shows. Kinda easy (for now). But so far no one wants to hear me speak.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> But so far no one wants to hear me speak.


At first, people don´t ask - you have to promote yourself as a speaker.

Now, with the book coming out in 2 months, I am getting a lot of requests (relatively speaking) and balancing paid speaking gigs with book opportunities. I would think you would have a lot to present as a speaker. If you ever want to discuss this, drop me an e-mail.


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

JSpira said:


> At first, people don´t ask - you have to promote yourself as a speaker.
> 
> Now, with the book coming out in 2 months, I am getting a lot of requests (relatively speaking) and balancing paid speaking gigs with book opportunities. I would think you would have a lot to present as a speaker. If you ever want to discuss this, drop me an e-mail.


I just ordered your book. It is certainly an interesting and timely topic.
http://www.amazon.com/Overload-Much...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1299211627&sr=8-2


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## ViaCorsa (Oct 1, 2010)

JSpira said:


> At first, people don´t ask - you have to promote yourself as a speaker.
> 
> Now, with the book coming out in 2 months, I am getting a lot of requests (relatively speaking) and balancing paid speaking gigs with book opportunities. I would think you would have a lot to present as a speaker. If you ever want to discuss this, drop me an e-mail.


Congrats on your new book! Actually I do speak from time to time. None that require me to fly to Munich (Sadly). But now that my marketing of the Germany book is slowing here in the US and I begin to focus on European sales, that might change. I'd love to escape the Arizona summer for a few afternoons in WaWi!


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## mason (Jun 8, 2006)

JSpira said:


> I won't try to address every point here but since I've flown in First very recently (in the last few weeks) on LH and AA TATL and AA TCON, I'd like to make a few observations.
> 
> First, wherever possible, go direct. If you must conect and if you can connect in the U.S. versus in the EU, do so.
> 
> ...


That FC seats look kind of tight, no? Besides the new suites on A380 on Singapore or Emirates, Air France A380 FC look very good. I played around it when I was flying business on A380 during my ED last year. I boarded way early because of my baby daughter. I got to walk around the whole plane with only a few people on board and I took some pictures. The cockpit door was opened, and they didn't really care I was nosing around.



[email protected] said:


> That sums up my experiences as well. I have taken DL 130 & DL131 between Atlanta & Munich since the mid 1990s (back when Delta used L-1011s).
> 
> Cost cuts of late show and are disappointing, but is just part of the world today. I have had problems booking tickets and upgrades, but I try to book at least 4-6 months in advance (just to avoid those problems). I have missed at least 3 flights out of Atlanta to Phoenix because of delays in Atlanta over the last 15 years..but always caught the next.
> 
> ...


Delta just changed its policy. It doesn't expire any more.


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## Donny (Jul 4, 2009)

We are doing United business class from San Fransisco to Frankfurt(the reason we are going into Frankfurt is that we where going to to an ED on a Porsche when we booked) United would only wait list us for business class on the direct 747 flight but could book us business class on the direct 777 flight and at this time only 8 of the 45 777 have been converted as of Jan. We are hoping they hurry up before Sept.


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

Donny said:


> We are doing United business class from San Fransisco to Frankfurt(the reason we are going into Frankfurt is that we where going to to an ED on a Porsche when we booked) United would only wait list us for business class on the direct 747 flight but could book us business class on the direct 777 flight and at this time only 8 of the 45 777 have been converted as of Jan. We are hoping they hurry up before Sept.


I have been told that things have changed, but I won't fly on United 777s from the West Coast to Europe. I took a nonstop from SFO to Heathrow (in business class) a few years ago and had breathing problems. When I mentioned this to one of the flight crew, she told me they purposely keep the in-cabin air pressure low and humidity low to save on costs. She said the cabin crews routinely file grievences about this but get no useful response. Luckily, I had a fully paid ticket, so I changed the return to Virgin and came back in "Upper Class" on an old 747.

I'll put up with a lot, but I have no intention of dying from CHF on a 777.


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## Mace14 (Mar 10, 2007)

b-y said:


> I have been told that things have changed, but I won't fly on United 777s from the West Coast to Europe. I took a nonstop from SFO to Heathrow (in business class) a few years ago and had breathing problems. When I mentioned this to one of the flight crew, she told me they purposely keep the in-cabin air pressure low and humidity low to save on costs. She said the cabin crews routinely file grievences about this but get no useful response. Luckily, I had a fully paid ticket, so I changed the return to Virgin and came back in "Upper Class" on an old 747.
> 
> I'll put up with a lot, but I have no intention of dying from CHF on a 777.


FARs require no higher than 8,000 ft cabin altitude. That means that cabin pressure can be no lower than if you were on an 8,000 ft mountain peak. Most General Aviation aircraft regularly fly well above 8,000ft with no cabin pressurization at all. Basically, even with no cockpit pressurization you don't have to begin to worry about oxygen levels until over 12,500 ft so there's no basis for concern unless you already have a cardio/pulmonary issue. Also, as cabin pressurization is one of those parameters recorded on the in-flight data recorders on modern airliners I seriously doubt that a major airline would violate FARs knowing there will be irrefutable evidence of the violation especially given the extremely minor savings that might be realized.


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## enigma (Jan 4, 2006)

boothguy said:


> All:
> 
> Once BMW okays one of my dates, I'm going to be jumping on plane tickets pretty fast and wanted to be prepared. I'd like to get your opinions on First/Business class to Munich these days (hooray for points). Looks like the available choices from San Diego will be British Airways, Lufthansa, Delta, Air Canada, United, American and some carrier called Brussels Airways. The domestic leg for BA and Lufthansa will be on US flag carriers who codeshare, but obviously it's the transatlantic leg that counts.
> 
> All opinions appreciated.


When I did mine, I flew SAN-IAD-MUC and MUC-ORD-SAN. Because of my mileage program with United, my choice was limited to Star Alliance partners. I ended up flying UA first class, and I would NOT recommend it. They are old airplanes with dated interior. I had to watch movies from Beta tapes (i.e. no modern entertainment systems)!


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

enigma said:


> When I did mine, I flew SAN-IAD-MUC and MUC-ORD-SAN. Because of my mileage program with United, my choice was limited to Star Alliance partners. I ended up flying UA first class, and I would NOT recommend it. They are old airplanes with dated interior. I had to watch movies from *Beta* tapes (i.e. no modern entertainment systems)!


meaning these were experimental or Betamax?


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## FastMarkA (Apr 21, 2008)

Donny said:


> We are doing United business class from San Fransisco to Frankfurt(the reason we are going into Frankfurt is that we where going to to an ED on a Porsche when we booked) United would only wait list us for business class on the direct 747 flight but could book us business class on the direct 777 flight and at this time only 8 of the 45 777 have been converted as of Jan. We are hoping they hurry up before Sept.


I wouldn't get too optimistic. Since the merger, there are decisions being made about whether or not to continue with the 777 retrofits in the current 3-cabin approach versus CO's egalitarian 2-cabin. The retrofits will happen, but I think they're still running the business model about what's going to be most profitable for the airline.


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## FastMarkA (Apr 21, 2008)

b-y said:


> I have been told that things have changed, but I won't fly on United 777s from the West Coast to Europe. I took a nonstop from SFO to Heathrow (in business class) a few years ago and had breathing problems. When I mentioned this to one of the flight crew, she told me they purposely keep the in-cabin air pressure low and humidity low to save on costs. She said the cabin crews routinely file grievences about this but get no useful response. Luckily, I had a fully paid ticket, so I changed the return to Virgin and came back in "Upper Class" on an old 747.
> 
> I'll put up with a lot, but I have no intention of dying from CHF on a 777.


Sorry, but flight attendants are the biggest sources of misleading airline information. In fact, there's kind of a joke that all airlines need to be run by bad CEOs because otherwise the flight attendants would have nothing to bitch about after they've served the meal/drinks.

One of the *few* reasons I would choose UA over other Euro and Asian carriers (who offer much more polished service) is that cabin temps are kept much cooler during the night than foreign carriers.

If you've ever flown LH on a red eye, you know what I mean. They jack up the temps while people are sleeping.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

FastMarkA said:


> One of the *few* reasons I would choose UA over other Euro and Asian carriers (who offer much more polished service) is that cabin temps are kept much cooler during the night than foreign carriers.


I haven't really found that to be the case and I fly a mix of LH, AA, and OS for TATL each year with several trips on each.


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

Regarding cabin air pressure...



FastMarkA said:


> Sorry, but flight attendants are the biggest sources of misleading airline information. ....


Read this. Possibly there is something going on, and my observation may have been based on reality.

Key finding:

"Based on the measurements of median cabin pressure, patients flying on a B747 would be breathing approximately 17.4% oxygen sea level equivalent, vs 16.7-16.8% on the other aircraft types. "Part of this difference is related to CP schedule and the remainder related to the newer aircraft being able to fly at higher altitudes", the researchers explain."

As to...


Mace14 said:


> FARs require no higher than 8,000 ft cabin altitude. That means that cabin pressure can be no lower than if you were on an 8,000 ft mountain peak. Most General Aviation aircraft regularly fly well above 8,000ft with no cabin pressurization at all. Basically, even with no cockpit pressurization you don't have to begin to worry about oxygen levels until over 12,500 ft so there's no basis for concern unless you already have a cardio/pulmonary issue. Also, as cabin pressurization is one of those parameters recorded on the in-flight data recorders on modern airliners I seriously doubt that a major airline would violate FARs knowing there will be irrefutable evidence of the violation especially given the extremely minor savings that might be realized.


Here is the recommendation (emphasis added by me):

"The B747, for as long as it has been a dominant long-haul aircraft *has provided a safety buffer to travellers because it has CP characteristics that are much better than the minimum required by regulation*. These differences in CP and resultant worsening of hypoxia with newer aircraft may have an effect on those travelers with mild lung disease and may significantly impact on patients with severe lung disease who might choose to fly long-haul on a B747 for preference when this is an option."


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## enigma (Jan 4, 2006)

JSpira said:


> meaning these were experimental or Betamax?


betamax!


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## Mace14 (Mar 10, 2007)

b-y said:


> Regarding cabin air pressure...
> 
> Read this. Possibly there is something going on, and my observation may have been based on reality.
> 
> ...


And I wrote (emphasis added by me):


> there's no basis for concern *unless you already have a cardio/pulmonary issue.*


All of these airplanes continue to have cabin pressurization above the minimum required by FARs and the danger of air travel to people with cardio/pulmonary issues is not new. This is one of the reasons portable oxygen bottles are included on all airliners. You are using second-hand information to claim that United "purposely keep the in-cabin air pressure low and humidity low to save on costs" effectively accusing the aircrew of endangering the passengers yet it appears that all of the current crop of new airplanes are flying a lower pressurization schedule. Yes, according to the report you furnished the newer planes have slightly lower CP at altitude yet their cabin pressurization is still well above the required minimums so how is this an issue unique to United (or 777's for that matter?) I can agree that people with medical conditions should either reconsider air travel or stick with 747's but that's as far as this goes, it's not a matter of accusing an airline of endangering its passengers.


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## FastMarkA (Apr 21, 2008)

Mace14 said:


> I can agree that people with medical conditions should either reconsider air travel or stick with 747's but that's as far as this goes, it's not a matter of accusing an airline of endangering its passengers.


Word.

I once had a gf who claimed Delta made her ears pop more than [insert any other airline]. (Because the paint on the plane makes an impact.) She's gone. :rofl:


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

Mace14 said:


> ... You are using second-hand information to claim that United "purposely keep the in-cabin air pressure low and humidity low to save on costs" effectively accusing the aircrew of endangering the passengers yet it appears that all of the current crop of new airplanes are flying a lower pressurization schedule. ....


Just to be clear, I *did* label it as second-hand in my original comment.

Also, to be clear, I have flown SFO-MUC and return non-stop many times on LH's Airbus equipment (as well as SFO-CDG on AF, SFO-Toronto-FRA on AC, as well as many TATL and TPAC flights), and my only bad experience with CP and breathing was on the UA 777. I just state my experience; you can decide whether to generalize. (I think I may have flown almost every carrier and every route that gets one quickly from SFO to the Middle East as I had a series of consulting assignments there.)

One additional point I didn't include as it didn't seem relevant at the time is that the UA 777s are the only planes in which I have experienced sufficient in-flight condensation so that it actually appeared to be raining over a few of the rows.

I'll readily admit that I am an example of the customer who just got pissed off one-too-many times. And at least I have followed my own advice: I left lots of UA FF miles on the table and stopped renewing my Red Carpet membership. We now fly HA to HNL, paying for the flights rather than using UA miles or upgrades. (I especially like Bev Gannon's menus in HA FC!)


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

I re-read this thread, and I worry that it may seem as though I had one bad experience on UA and that was enough to lead to a general condemnation. So here is a bit more background...I have flown UA regularly since the pre-Mileage Plus, pre-deregulation days. I racked up lots of miles on the DC-8s and then on most of their trans-continental fleet. When UA took over Pan Am's TPAC routes, I went with them (and still am friendly with some of the cabin crew that made the switch). Below is an artifact from the old days.


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