# M3 owner autocrosses RX-8, is smitten.



## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Originally posted on another board:

Autocrossed clyde's car today. What an eye-opening experience. 

Off the line, as long as you rev it to 3500 RPM or so, the RX-8 pulls relatively well. My first run, I "short-shifted" (at about 7K RPM!) because I just wasn't ready for the long climb to 9K. The course had essentially a slight kink and then a long straight blast up to a tight 180 (into a figure eight). The car pulled well, and I went to brake at about the time I would in my car. I also began my turn in about the same place... 

Oops. The car bites *right now,* and I found myself having to actually steer back the other way to get through the gate. Yikes. The RX-8 actually does what you tell it to. 

That was really the story of my whole first run--I couldn't concentrate on the course because I couldn't believe how well the car was handling, and how much less slop there was in the handling than I was used to. The great thing is that even driving like a moron, the RX-8 is direct enough that you can operate in react mode and still post a decent time. Unbelievable. 

On my later runs, I started to get a better feel for the car, and got closer to its limits. It's amazing what you can do with the gas pedal. In the M3, steering with the throttle means booting it out of a slow corner and "walking the dog." In the RX-8, you can actually lift off the throttle mid-turn and steer the car that way--sweet. And it's actually fairly forgiving, allowing you to dance up close to the limit of adhesion and still reign it in.* I did one long sweeper in a nearly constant 4 wheel drift, and as I told clyde, it may be the most fun 3 seconds I've ever had autocrossing. 

This car kicks ****ing ass. Autocrossing clyde's RX-8 the day after autocrossing my M3 is like the difference between typing with and without welding gloves. The M3 feels big, sullen, heavy, slow to react, undertired, prone to understeer, floaty, and numb compared to the RX-8. Seriously. And the difference is profound enough that clyde's car on street tires is *still* more satisfying to drive than Nick's car with a swaybar, Hoosiers, and DA Konis. 

Summary? I can't think of a reason to buy an M3 over this car. And that's without even discussing price. If you want power, buy a Mustang or a GTO. But if you even pretend that handling is your game, the RX-8 is it.** 


EDIT: And, unlike the M3, the engine doesn't explode. 

______ 

*clyde later pointed out that the DSC may not have been fully off, perhaps lessening my heroics at keep the car in a balanced drift. If it intervened, I didn't feel it, which is not something I'd ever say in the M3. 


**clyde's car, of course, has non-stock dampers. As I've said before, these setting should be stock. I would be interested to see how well a stock RX-8 would do.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

how much do you think your opinion would change if your venue of choice was road courses rather than auto-X?


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## bren (Jul 1, 2002)

How much would your opinion change if you actually liked the M3 to begin with? :angel:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

bren said:


> How much would your opinion change if you actually liked the M3 to begin with? :angel:


well, I have no doubt that whatever you think about the M3 going in, if you buy it with an eye toward outstanding auto-X performance in stock condition, that would be pretty dumb.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

I do like the M3. It's a great car. It offers a formidable blend of performance and luxury. It's a very comfortable freeway car, and it's very fast in a straight line. 

But the RX-8 is a better handling car, and is more fun to drive. That's all I'm saying. And as the competition has improved, I find it harder and harder to justify paying what BMW asks for the M3. It's just not, IMHO, worth it. 

On a road course, I think the RX-8 would still be more fun. The M3 would probably be faster, depending on the number and length of straightaways, but there's not a doubt in my mind that the RX-8 would be a more rewarding drive.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

I haven't autocrossed an 8 yet, but the first time I turned the steering wheel in one I was like... Yes. This is what handling is all about. They nailed it.

Good auto-x review JST. :thumbup:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

rumratt said:


> Dumber than buying a race car and never racing it? :eeps:


just as dumb


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

Have you guys seen the Top Gear RX-8 test?

It almost makes me want to go buy one (except the back seat is too small...so that ain't going to happen)...

http://www.nashwan.org/topgear.wmv


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

My real idiocy in driving yesterday was that my tire pressure was a bit low in front and I found my car pushing a tad more than I'm used to... 

I will need more than a few days of runs to get into the groove of driving this car properly, but hopefully by next year I can give some of the regulars a run for their money


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

JST said:


> I find it harder and harder to justify paying what BMW asks for the M3. It's just not, IMHO, worth it.


You have to put some value on interior style, exterior style and exclusivity (debatable) to pay the BMW premium.

Is the RX8's 0-60 time M3 competitive?


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

JP in TO said:


> You have to put some value on interior style, exterior style and exclusivity (debatable) to pay the BMW premium.
> 
> Is the RX8's 0-60 time M3 competitive?


Not even close.


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

JST said:


> Not even close.


 Hehe, so true... but that's not what the car was designed for.

Glad to see you like it JST... so when are you selling your M3?


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

JPinTO said:


> You have to put some value on interior style, exterior style and exclusivity (debatable) to pay the BMW premium.
> 
> Is the RX8's 0-60 time M3 competitive?





JST said:


> If you want power, buy a Mustang or a GTO.


Regarding exclusivity... How many E46 M3s do you see every day? How many RX-8s? Both are just as easy to buy...walk into your dealer and give them some money (roughly twice as much for the M3 as the RX-8, though).

The style stuff? If you're more about show than go, have at it...although, oddly enough, there are people that are truly enamored of the RX-8's "style" inside and out. (I am not one of them.)


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Hercules said:


> Glad to see you like it JST... so when are you selling your M3?


Let's just say that when the lease is up, I won't be getting another one.

What I will get is up in the air, at this point, but the RX-8 is certainly a strong contender.

As long as Koni will sell me a set of shocks.


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

JST said:


> Let's just say that when the lease is up, I won't be getting another one.
> 
> What I will get is up in the air, at this point, but the RX-8 is certainly a strong contender.
> 
> As long as Koni will sell me a set of shocks.


 The RX-7 might be out by then too


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

When is the release for the RX-7?


In all honesty, though, if I decide I can live with only two seats, a Z51 C6 becomes mighty tempting.


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

JST said:


> When is the release for the RX-7?
> 
> In all honesty, though, if I decide I can live with only two seats, a Z51 C6 becomes mighty tempting.


 There's no official date though I expect you'll see it in another 2 years. Right now the redesign of the Miata is on the top of the 'to-do' list for Mazda and since that car is their heritage and their bread and butter in so many ways, it's important to get it right.

Given the shared chassis now, the RX-7 is a greater reality since the RX-8 is first, hitting its sales marks, the Miata will be getting the RX-8's chassis, and the RX-7 would ideally get the RX-8's chassis as well. I think you know how good it is from driving the RX-8, so it will be nice when the RX-7 comes along in a sub 3000lbs package, higher power car with the same chassis. That's the one I'm waiting for, anyway. When the lease is up on my RX-8 and if the RX-7 is at that time available... I'll likely just buy that car and keep it instead of leasing again.

It's not 100% that the RX-7 will come out, but I give it a good chance given that Mazda has really turned the corner in regards to their current lineup of cars.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

any spyshots or conceptual drawings of the rx-7?


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

atyclb said:


> any spyshots or conceptual drawings of the rx-7?


 Nothing yet... lots of 'concept' art but it's not from Mazda. It's from people who think that 'this is what the RX-7 should look like' crowd.

I'm hoping that Mazda doesn't pre-pimp the car for you as other companies are aleady doing and just leaving it understated and sporty just like the 3rd generation RX-7 was.

But that's neither here nor there.. I'm still waiting for some announcement or news on it, haven't heard anything yet. This is just my own estimation.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Hercules said:


> There's no official date though I expect you'll see it in another 2 years. Right now the redesign of the Miata is on the top of the 'to-do' list for Mazda and since that car is their heritage and their bread and butter in so many ways, it's important to get it right.


The RX-7 is a lot more their "heritage" than the Miata. The Miata has been Mazda's slowest selling vehicle for a few years now (if not longer). As much as the Miata was crucial to them in the 90s, the Miata only sold about 14k units in the US in 2002 (out of 258k US Mazda sales), not quite 11k in 2003 (also out of 258k) and is on a pace to sell just 10k units this year (out of 281k), it certainly isn't their "bread and butter."



> It's not 100% that the RX-7 will come out, but I give it a good chance given that Mazda has really turned the corner in regards to their current lineup of cars.


The possibility of a new RX-7 (or perhaps an RX-9...you heard it here first ) is certainly something to watch. And the next gen Miata riding on this platform should be amazing for what it will be. The RX-8, though, will continue to fill a void that no one knew existed.

It would be better with more power, stiffer springs, better shocks, more available camber up front...and automatic up windows. :eeps:


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Hercules said:


> There's no official date though I expect you'll see it in another 2 years. Right now the redesign of the Miata is on the top of the 'to-do' list for Mazda and since that car is their heritage and their bread and butter in so many ways, it's important to get it right.
> 
> Given the shared chassis now, the RX-7 is a greater reality since the RX-8 is first, hitting its sales marks, the Miata will be getting the RX-8's chassis, and the RX-7 would ideally get the RX-8's chassis as well. I think you know how good it is from driving the RX-8, so it will be nice when the RX-7 comes along in a sub 3000lbs package, higher power car with the same chassis. That's the one I'm waiting for, anyway. When the lease is up on my RX-8 and if the RX-7 is at that time available... I'll likely just buy that car and keep it instead of leasing again.
> 
> It's not 100% that the RX-7 will come out, but I give it a good chance given that Mazda has really turned the corner in regards to their current lineup of cars.


In college, the only car I wanted to buy when I graduated was a 3rd gen RX-7. I was very bummed when they stopped making them, and even more bummed when they turned out to be rolling hand grenades.


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

I have to admit that a well driven RX8 at least makes it look smooth and effortless on an autox course. Maybe it's the lack of engine noise. :dunno: 

Alex


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> The RX-7 is a lot more their "heritage" than the Miata. The Miata has been Mazda's slowest selling vehicle for a few years now (if not longer). As much as the Miata was crucial to them in the 90s, the Miata only sold about 14k units in the US in 2002 (out of 258k US Mazda sales), not quite 11k in 2003 (also out of 258k) and is on a pace to sell just 10k units this year (out of 281k), it certainly isn't their "bread and butter."
> 
> The possibility of a new RX-7 (or perhaps an RX-9...you heard it here first ) is certainly something to watch. And the next gen Miata riding on this platform should be amazing for what it will be. The RX-8, though, will continue to fill a void that no one knew existed.
> 
> It would be better with more power, stiffer springs, better shocks, more available camber up front...and automatic up windows. :eeps:


 We can agree to disagree on the point the Miata is extremely important  It's what kept Mazda in the game for all these years despite horrible cars like the 626 and the ill-concieved Millenia.

As per the stiffer springs, et al... if you buy the MazdaSpeed edition (in Japan) you get all those goodies and more, and a great rice-boy appearance to boot (blech). The new Miata will be a hoot I think, and to look forward to the next RX-7 or RX-9 well... that remains to be seen though I remain hopeful. Next year you'll see a date for the Mazda6 MPS (probably) and the new Miata, and the year after that, the RX-7.

These are just my guesses


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Hercules said:


> We can agree to disagree on the point the Miata is extremely important  It's what kept Mazda in the game for all these years despite horrible cars like the 626 and the ill-concieved Millenia.


1990 51636
1991 38287
1992 26636
1993 21482
1994 20110
1995 19590
1996 18971
1997 18652
1998 No US version
1999 33370
2000 15972
2001 18147
2002 13780
2003 12672

Halo cars are important, and they serve a purpose, but they don't "keep you in the game." And calling the Miata a halo car may be overly generous.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

JST said:


> Autocrossed clyde's car today. What an eye-opening experience.


 :eeps:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TeamZ4 said:


> :eeps:


 :nono:

"This is not the car you're looking for. You can go about yout STX business."


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

JST said:


> In college, the only car I wanted to buy when I graduated was a 3rd gen RX-7. I was very bummed when they stopped making them, and even more bummed when they turned out to be rolling hand grenades.


Man, are you and I the same guy? I had a 2nd gen turbo and came *this close* to buying an FD, but they were all blowed up by the time I went to find one around 2001.

I agreed 100% with your review and posted as such right after I finished killing 13 cones with Clyde's car. I went in expecting to be pleased with the car but disappointed with the power. I came out blown away with the handling and very impressed with the power. Ask Clyde - I was giggling when I came back after my first (and second) runs.

The steering is _so_ precise and the car is _so_ well balanced. The car turns in _right now_. There is no delay to any input. You can get on the gas very early and the car doesn't get upset. By comparison my M3 (and Ken's E46) have very slow steering ratios. Hell, getting back into my car was like driving a truck.

There are two video clips that I have from the National Tour course (though not at the tour, was not driving my car) where we came out of a fast (flat out) left hand sweeper and have to brake HARD for a right handed hairpin. I come flying through the sweeper, one tire in the air, nail the brakes, tire comes down, car stutters from the impact, and I make my way around the hairpin. Clyde comes through like he's drinking a margarita and smoking a J... car totally composed, brake, turn, go. Just as fast. :tsk:

Great car. Clyde's is well set up, too, which doesn't hurt.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

rumratt said:


> This argument sucks.
> 
> Wanting more power does not mean they need to give up on handling altogether.


I agree. The Z06... I don't see the RX8 beating this in a straight line, on the auto-x course or on the track.  :angel:


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

Andy said:


> I agree. The Z06... I don't see the RX8 beating this in a straight line, on the auto-x course or on the track.  :angel:


I may have to find a Z06 co-drive before the end of the year. From what I hear from Z06 owners, it is very much a brute-force approach to autocrossing. Big power, big grip but not necessarily big fun.

John


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

SoloII///M said:


> I may have to find a Z06 co-drive before the end of the year. From what I hear from Z06 owners, it is very much a brute-force approach to autocrossing. Big power, big grip but not necessarily big fun.
> 
> John


My thoughts exactly... I have a couple SS buddies that I have been dropping hints from the start of the season about co-driving... I think I need to make my hints a little more obvious. 

I think the Z06 looks like a lot of fun to drive.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SoloII///M said:


> I may have to find a Z06 co-drive before the end of the year. From what I hear from Z06 owners, it is very much a brute-force approach to autocrossing. Big power, big grip but not necessarily big fun.
> 
> John


 If I'm not mistaken, there is someone that has read at least part of this thread who has a bit of Z06 experience and also competed in an RX-8 once this year...


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

·clyde· said:


> If I'm not mistaken, there is someone that has read at least part of this thread who has a bit of Z06 experience and also competed in an RX-8 once this year...


Here, I'll post for him.



TeamZ06 said:


> :eeps:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SoloII///M said:


> Here, I'll post for him.


 Well, he actually posted before:



TeamZ06 said:


> All in all, *the RX8 is perhaps the most fun Stock class car I've ever driven*. I love the handling even with the off-throttle oversteer which only requires some driver adaptation and suspension tuning. It's a monster in the sweepers, OMG if only my BMW would hang like that with the throttle planted all the way around :yikes:


Still, a direct comparison on this point [fun] could be interesting.

It seems to me that depending on your autocrossing goals, there are two big things one needs to think about when choosing an autocross car (leaving aside cost and real world practicality issues if the car also needs to be a daily driver).

1) Is it fun to drive on an autocross course? Is driving it out there going to bring a smile to your face even when you drive like crap? Will you spend more time enjoying the drive and exploiting its strengths than driving it in a way that minimizes the car's weaknesses.

2) Is it class competitive? Given the right driver, will the car turn times quick enough to win its class (in your local region or on the national level).

In the case of the RX-8, it's definitely fun to drive on an autocross course. In our local region, it's definitely fast enough to win BS if the driver isn't overly intoxicated by the sheer driving goodness of the car. Is it fast enough to win Nationally? Probably not this year (although we'll never know how far back), but if some of the proposed changes for next year go through, it could be.

Relativley speaking, the E46 M3 just isn't as much fun to drive on an autocross course. You don't get to fully exploit the car's strengths and the weaknesses of the car are emphasized. With the right driver, it probably could win AS locally in most places (including here), but it just doesn't appear to have what it takes to cut it Nationally against some other AS cars (although it's better off in AS than it was in SS).


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Agree with all clyde's points. For me, autocrossing is less about competition (because I don't see myself devoting the time and especially money it takes to really win, even if my skills could someday allow me to do that, which they probably can't), and more about having fun. The M3 isn't completely without giggles on the autocross course, because there is something nice about power-on oversteer. But the RX-8 is a hell of a lot more fun to drive, and it's probably easier on its tires, too. 

The big question mark for me is what a bone stock RX-8 would feel like. Until Koni makes clyde's setup available, the rest of us prospective purchasers are going to be stuck with limited upgrade options (I can't tell from the forums, e.g., whether the MS shocks would work with the OE springs, and even if they did they do not seem to be adjustable).


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

JST said:


> The big question mark for me is what a bone stock RX-8 would feel like. Until Koni makes clyde's setup available, the rest of us prospective purchasers are going to be stuck with limited upgrade options (I can't tell from the forums, e.g., whether the MS shocks would work with the OE springs, and even if they did they do not seem to be adjustable).


Well, my understanding is that Koni would custom build shocks for you (but it would be pretty pricey compared to what the off the shelf version will cost once they are available).

OTOH, I thought I read something the other day that MazdaSpeed will be soon be selling adjustable shocks. If true, I have no idea how they would compare to the Konis in terms of performance and/or ease of adjustability. I also don't know if they would be intended as JDM only or not. If they were JDM, there are some places it would just mean that you'd have to get them from someone other than your local MS Mazda dealer. In case it's wasn't clear, I also don't know if there is any truth to that rumor. Currently, though, you can get non-adjustable MS shocks from your local MazdaSpeed Mazda dealer. I don't know how they compare, really, but the limited number of reports that I've read indicate that they too get rid of that little floaty feeling the OEM stock shocks have. If you went that way, I would suggest making sure that the shocks would be stock legal (that all the travel, dimensions, etc meet the rules), not that anyone locally would be likely to protest if they weren't.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

clyde said:


> Well, my understanding is that Koni would custom build shocks for you (but it would be pretty pricey compared to what the off the shelf version will cost once they are available).
> 
> OTOH, I thought I read something the other day that MazdaSpeed will be soon be selling adjustable shocks. If true, I have no idea how they would compare to the Konis in terms of performance and/or ease of adjustability. I also don't know if they would be intended as JDM only or not. If they were JDM, there are some places it would just mean that you'd have to get them from someone other than your local MS Mazda dealer. In case it's wasn't clear, I also don't know if there is any truth to that rumor. Currently, though, you can get non-adjustable MS shocks from your local MazdaSpeed Mazda dealer. I don't know how they compare, really, but the limited number of reports that I've read indicate that they too get rid of that little floaty feeling the OEM stock shocks have. If you went that way, I would suggest making sure that the shocks would be stock legal (that all the travel, dimensions, etc meet the rules), not that anyone locally would be likely to protest if they weren't.


No matter how much cheaper the RX-8 is than the M3, I can't justify the cost of custom Konis on what will likely be a two year lease. When I get closer to actually needing to make a decision, I will investigate the options more thoroughly.


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

Sorry but you are comparing apples and oranges ,BMW or Mazda and M3 vs Rx-8
From my experiences, reading and watching Bmws auto-crossed. The E46 does not handle nearly as good as the E36 M3 and i believe the e36 318ti will slap both around. Heck i think even an e30 325 could out perform an e46 M3 on an autocross track . There is a guy on our local Florida bmw site that tracks a e30 325 automatic and gets better times than e46 m3's.


weight on e46 m3 3461 lbs weight for rx-8 barely 2900lbs e36 m3 3100lbs

rx-8 is a 50-50 balance of weight distribution(which bmw started) so is the e36 m3 and you know what they weigh relatively close.

You gotta compare the e36 m3 vs. the Rx-8 to be talking about similar vehicles

E46 M3 was made for the horsepower wars that are going on notice the speedo goes to 180mph ,not so much for handling in my opinion, wider is not necessarily better as you found out. E36's have more of a rx8 wheel base correct me if i am wrong.


-Appearance Rx-8 looks like a bubbley alien spaceship with weird doors oh yeah and even crazier engine , were you planning on doing your own mechanic work on that thing.

-My e36 m3 w/chip only, beats a stock(well not sure if it was stock) rx8 in a straight line race for one whole car.

If anything mazda rx-8 is a knock off of e36 m3 50-50 weight dist. ,handling ,wheelbase ,and performance wise.

8 years from now they will be selling something more similar to the performance of the e46 m3 but of course will throw in better handling. 

For the price of an rx-8 you could have to e36 m3's in good condition


This is my opinion and not in anyway the imperial facts


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

:jawdrop:

OMGWTFBBQ


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## bren (Jul 1, 2002)

: popcorn:


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> :jawdrop:
> 
> OMGWTFBBQ


 Anandtech?


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

If something in my post doesn.t sound right or look right ,let me know....learning is a process and i am not an expert . I just dont think the Rx-8 should be compared to an E46 M3 ever.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

TAMPABAYBIMMERS said:


> If something in my post doesn.t sound right or look right ,let me know....learning is a process and i am not an expert . I just dont think the Rx-8 should be compared to an E46 M3 ever.


 WTF are you thinking?

Blatant ignorance is the only term I can think of here...


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TAMPABAYBIMMERS said:


> weight on e46 m3 3461 lbs e36 m3 3100lbs


now you're comparing apples to oranges.

a similarly equipped E46 M3 weighs ~140 pounds more than an E36 M3


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TAMPABAYBIMMERS said:


> If something in my post doesn.t sound right or look right ,let me know....learning is a process and i am not an expert . I just dont think the Rx-8 should be compared to an E46 M3 ever.


The E46 M3 will blow away an RX-8 in a drag race, no question. That is the one and only objective performance advantage it has over the RX-8. All E46s have nicer interiors that are generally more comfortable than the RX-8's as the compromises BMW made for them are skewed more towards luxury than anything else.

A stock E36 M3 (3.0 or 3.2) will also beat an RX-8 in a drag race, although it won't be as lopsided.

When it comes to handling and feel, neither of those M3s can hold a candle to the RX-8. A 50-50 static weight distribution is not a holy grail that BMW stumbled upon in the darkness and subsequently trademarked, patented and copyrighted, nor were they the first to sell a car with a 50-50 weight distribution. And weight distribution is only one piece of a large puzzle when it comes to handling and feel.

The general consensus is that E36s have better feel than E46s across the board (M or non-M). You'll be hard pressed to find anyone that has driven both kinds that doesn't agree (but they are out there). What is undeniable is that although they are heavier, E46s are faster on autocross courses across the board than E36s (M and non M) given the same level or lack of prep and equally competent drivers.

If you want to factor cost into it, your two E36 M3s for the cost of a new RX-8 cna be flipped with for the cost of Nick's nearly new E46 M3, you could buy two new RX-8s. So what?

The reason that the E46 M3 and RX-8 can be compared is that they are both current model cars. That they appeal to people with different needs, wants and wallet sizes doesn't invalidate the comparison.


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

Again my post was my opinion not ignorance , most of what i have said about the cars such as weight was specs found on the internet not numbers pulled out of my ass, i have however found a better weight on the E46 at 3415 lbs, 3600 lbs i thought was a little high as well but that's what i found on a quick spec sheet i pulled up, the point of listing those weights was the lighter car should be more nimbler in my opinion, again it does all come down to the driver and the setup of the car ..... Sorry guys maybe when i read this post i thought i was on a BMW Forum and reading how a rx-8 should be purchased over an e46 m3 because of an auto-x experience i dont care what anyone buys i just think an rx-8 should more be compared to a e36 m3 ,and not the e46 i wasnt trying to get anyones panties in bunch just supposed to make people think. If you think the rx-8 should be compared with an e46 then compare them. i just think the e36 m3 for the price of a decent one, is a perfect package and much less than a rx8


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

I see what you are saying now, maybe i am just in denial to think an rx8 will out handle or even feel anything like my e36 m3. Just Bmw tunnel vision on my part sorry guys, but like i said i am learning


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> The reason that the E46 M3 and RX-8 can be compared is that they are both current model cars. That they appeal to people with different needs, wants and wallet sizes doesn't invalidate the comparison.


I always find it funny when people tell me I can't/shouldn't compare two cars. Generally, I compare two cars that I am interested in owning. They may have no commonalities beyond my interest in them (wait 'til you see me compare the RX-8 and CTS-V), but the fact that I am considering owning both means that I must compare them.

Beyond that observation, I think that there are folks out there cross-shopping the E46 M3 and the RX-8. Sure, they are vastly different in terms of cost, but both fall within the same basic set of constraints, and can thus be rationally compared.

Moreover, even if no one other than me is comparing the RX-8 to the E46 M3 (something that I think is false), the purpose of this thread is for me to tell people thinking about an E46 M3 who have preferences similar to my own to at least *consider* the RX-8. In other words, I've made the comparison, I think the RX-8 is a car that is more fun to drive, and if you want a car that is more fun to drive than an E46 M3, you should consider one.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

TAMPABAYBIMMERS said:


> I see what you are saying now, maybe i am just in denial to think an rx8 will out handle or even feel anything like my e36 m3. Just Bmw tunnel vision on my part sorry guys, but like i said i am learning


 Note that I do believe that if one spends enough money on an E36 M3 it will blow the RX-8 away in everything but steering feel. Stock for stock, the RX-8 blows the E36 out of the water. At least at this point, a properly developed E36 M3 will outhandle the RX-8, but that may simply be related to the fact that it's been under development for the last ten years.

That said, as an E46 M3 driver who has driven both E36 M3s and an RX-8, there is absolutely nothing in Clyde's statements that I can disagree with. I'm one of a very small number of M3 owners who will admit that I bought the car because it's damned comfy and handles adequately.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Does anyone believe that the RX8 can outhandle the E46M3 on the Nurburgring, which is a track that almost every car manufacturer is using to develop their cars ?


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## FSelekler (Jan 15, 2002)

LOL, I wonder if you remember when I said "I will never own a BMW again" after driving the Subbie  People attacked me like crazy.

Any how... carry on please


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

And again my fault for disturbing this thread , I will never buy a brand new car i think it is ridiculous. Only because i would never want to lose all that money when i sell it. I am more about driving a car for 3 years and selling it for more than what i bought it for . The only way you can do that buying new cars is by buying cars like the Porsche Carrera Gt's and selling them for more than what they are worth because of waiting lists and markets demands. 
-It is unfortunate for the people who have to buy new cars because they dont know how to fix them themselves ,that is where alot of people get screwed because they have to buy cars with warranties ,and then they have get the extended warranty ,when that one is done, then they sell the car buy a new one and start all over with warranties.
-So fortunately or unfortunately i will never compare new market cars the way you guys do .


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> Does anyone believe that the RX8 can outhandle the E46M3 on the Nurburgring, which is a track that almost every car manufacturer is using to develop their cars ?


 Yes.

The M3 will turn in a faster time, though. The Nurburgring has FAR too many straights for anyone to even make a claim that the RX-8's handling advantage would make up for its speed (or lack thereof) in the straights.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TAMPABAYBIMMERS said:


> I am more about driving a car for 3 years and selling it for more than what i bought it for .


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

TAMPABAYBIMMERS said:


> And again my fault for disturbing this thread , I will never buy a brand new car i think it is ridiculous. Only because i would never want to lose all that money when i sell it. I am more about driving a car for 3 years and selling it for more than what i bought it for . The only way you can do that buying new cars is by buying cars like the Porsche Carrera Gt's and selling them for more than what they are worth because of waiting lists and markets demands.
> -It is unfortunate for the people who have to buy new cars because they dont know how to fix them themselves ,that is where alot of people get screwed because they have to buy cars with warranties ,and then they have get the extended warranty ,when that one is done, then they sell the car buy a new one and start all over with warranties.
> -So fortunately or unfortunately i will never compare new market cars the way you guys do .


 Some of us only have time to deal with so much in our daily drivers. Of course, I know I have a warped perspective when it comes to money.


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

Either case nice to hear everyones views on my stupid uproar


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Yes.
> 
> The M3 will turn in a faster time, though. The Nurburgring has FAR too many straights for anyone to even make a claim that the RX-8's handling advantage would make up for its speed (or lack thereof) in the straights.


:jack:

Download a video and take a look at the track and come again. Without the proper handling, you'd be hanging on the first corner like a bug would hang on the windshield.


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

I dont like to lose money because i dont have alot of it ,so i invest in cars that have great market value ,great street credibility, and an overall performance package generally real wheel drive and european, i buy them from private owners who bought them new, and i drive them for a 1.5 years and up sell them and still make profits it is a good strategy you know. The e36 m3 just happens to be in my 12-17k price range


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> :jack:
> 
> Download a video and take a look at the track and come again. Without the proper handling, you'd be hanging on the first corner like a bug would hang on the windshield.


 I've seen videos many times. The main straight is unbelievably long, the downhill compression also allows a huge amount of speed, and IIRC there are a couple other places.

The RX-8 carries more speed through a corner. Why is that so hard to believe? It's got a superior suspension setup, and it's 700lbs. lighter.

Are you seriously goign to claim that the Dodge Vipers that did so well at the 'ring turned in awesome times because they had better handling than any other car on the field?


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> The RX-8 carries more speed through a corner. Why is that so hard to believe? It's got a superior suspension setup, *and it's 700lbs. lighter.*


come on now...

(we're not talking about an M3 cab, right?)


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

atyclb said:


> come on now...
> 
> (we're not talking about an M3 cab, right?)


 Sorry, 500lbs. That was a typo.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Sorry, 500lbs. That was a typo.


 And that's "more than 500lbs."


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> I've seen videos many times. The main straight is unbelievably long, the downhill compression also allows a huge amount of speed, and IIRC there are a couple other places.
> 
> The RX-8 carries more speed through a corner. Why is that so hard to believe? It's got a superior suspension setup, and it's 700lbs. lighter.
> 
> Are you seriously goign to claim that the Dodge Vipers that did so well at the 'ring turned in awesome times because they had better handling than any other car on the field?


No, it's not hard to believe, a properly prepped MINI might be perhaps faster than an M3 between the cones too. So what ? No car is 100% perfect.

Yes, the M3 is a heavy car. But we must keep in mind that it wasn't designed to be raced on an Auto-X course (although based on the information that's getting posted here, they are doing pretty good) It is the race track where it shines, It needs straights, curves, hairpins.

Which Vipers are you talking about ? I don't remember awesome times done by Vipers. All the times have been shattered by the M3 GTRs.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> No, it's not hard to believe, a properly prepped MINI might be perhaps faster than an M3 between the cones too. So what ? No car is 100% perfect.
> 
> Yes, the M3 is a heavy car. But we must keep in mind that it wasn't designed to be raced on an Auto-X course (although based on the information that's getting posted here, they are doing pretty good) It is the race track where it shines, It needs straights, curves, hairpins.
> 
> Which Vipers are you talking about ? I don't remember awesome times done by Vipers. All the times have been shattered by the M3 GTRs.


 *sigh* All I'm saying is that the RX-8 carries more speed through the turns. If you can't see that, then so be it.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *sigh* All I'm saying is that the RX-8 carries more speed through the turns. If you can't see that, then so be it.


No need to stamp me as dumb, I can see that.

So, the RX8 carries more speed through the turns, it's way cheaper than the M3, it outhandles the M3 (maybe the insurance is cheaper too ?) All in all, it's a 'better' car than the M3.

If we add all these things, why would anyone still go with the M3 and not the RX8 ? (just curious)


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> No need to stamp me as dumb, I can see that.
> 
> So, the RX8 carries more speed through the turns, it's way cheaper than the M3, it outhandles the M3 (maybe the insurance is cheaper too ?) All in all, it's a 'better' car than the M3.
> 
> If we add all these things, why would anyone still go with the M3 and not the RX8 ? (just curious)


 Because it's not ALL AROUND a better car! Based on that criterion, it's just plain stupid to buy anything but a Z06.


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Because it's not ALL AROUND a better car! Based on that criterion, it's just plain stupid to buy anything but a Z06.


Only has two seats. Make me a 4 seat Z06 and I'll buy one.

Nick has gotten to the crux of the matter--if you want a comfy GT that's faster than snot and handles adequately, and you don't mind spending $55K to get one, the M3 is a good choice.

If you want a car that, above all else, is fun to fling around, and don't care so much about the quality of the leather or the interior appointments, the RX-8 is a better choice, and it will save you a bunch of money, besides.


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

JST said:


> Only has two seats. Make me a 4 seat Z06 and I'll buy one.
> 
> Nick has gotten to the crux of the matter--if you want a comfy GT that's faster than snot and handles adequately, and you don't mind spending $55K to get one, the M3 is a good choice.
> 
> If you want a car that, above all else, is fun to fling around, and don't care so much about the quality of the leather or the interior appointments, the RX-8 is a better choice, and it will save you a bunch of money, besides.


 Hey, I happen to like the interior of the RX-8 

It's no M3... but it's not as cheap as say, a 350Z. For my money I think I got a pretty nice interior both in feel and materials.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> If we add all these things, why would anyone still go with the M3 and not the RX8 ? (just curious)


Most of the reasons have been touched on or demonstrated in this (and many other) thread(s). The M3 has vastly more power, which is much easier to tap than the RX-8's superior handling abilities in the day to day grind of real world traffic. The interior appointments of the M3 are much nicer and it's MUCH quieter inside than an RX-8. The numb, subdued (relatively speaking) feel of the M3 is preferable to the lively nervousness of the RX-8 to most people. And the list goes on with other similar and related things.

It's a matter of what you want out of your car. For the most part each of these cars actually does what the other only pretends to do.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Note that I do believe that if one spends enough money on an E36 M3 it will blow the RX-8 away in everything but steering feel. Stock for stock, the RX-8 blows the E36 out of the water. At least at this point, a properly developed E36 M3 will outhandle the RX-8, but that may simply be related to the fact that it's been under development for the last ten years.


Are you comparing a fully developed E36s to a stock RX-8, or a fully developed RX-8 (which I'm not sure exists yet in the arena that we're talking about)?


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

rumratt said:


> In fact, that's probably a more intelligent thing to do...


probably



> ...just so I can have *marginally* more fun at an autox.


It's the difference between tearing off the panties of your dream supermodel with your teeth and grabbing a fistful of vaseline and a tissue.

Just one man's opinion, though.


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

·clyde· said:


> It's the difference between tearing off the panties of your dream supermodel with your teeth and grabbing a fistful of vaseline and a tissue.
> 
> Just one man's opinion, though.


 :rofl:

Alex


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2004)

rumratt said:


> I get confused myself sometimes.


 LOL. This is the parallel universe thread. In this thread, I do keep forgetting which board I am looking at.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> Are you comparing a fully developed E36s to a stock RX-8, or a fully developed RX-8 (which I'm not sure exists yet in the arena that we're talking about)?


 developed vs. developed. and I did say that time will tell on that one.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> developed vs. developed. and I did say that time will tell on that one.


 That's what I thought you meant, but it's really weird that you would since there aren't any developed RX-8s out there yet. I suspect that time will prove you to be quite wrong, but we will see.


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> It's the difference between tearing off the panties of your dream supermodel with your teeth and grabbing a fistful of vaseline and a tissue.
> 
> Just one man's opinion, though.


 I have to give that the definate 'quote of the day' :rofl:


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## TAMPABAYBIMMERS (Nov 19, 2003)

Well guys i wouldn't give up my e36 m3 daily driver for any other car no matter how it performed on the track or at an auto cross. I know how my car performs on the streets and i know its limits and believe me i drive it like i'm at the track(no lectures please). In total i have owned 5 BMW's 3 of which have been M3's obdI ,obdII, 4 door ...... i guess i am a BMW enthusiast and will always be representing a product i love.


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

TAMPABAYBIMMERS said:


> Well guys i wouldn't give up my e36 m3 daily driver for any other car no matter how it performed on the track or at an auto cross. I know how my car performs on the streets and i know its limits and believe me i drive it like i'm at the track(no lectures please). In total i have owned 5 BMW's 3 of which have been M3's obdI ,obdII, 4 door ...... i guess i am a BMW enthusiast and will always be representing a product i love.


And you know what? That's fine. I would love to have an RX-8 to autocross and my E36 M3 to drive every day. Money prohibits that, though.

Look, I'll put it this way. I wrote my letters to the SEB proclaiming the S2000 as a ringer. I started rubbing my hands ("Exxxxccelent") when I heard that it would _probably_ be moved out of my class. I figured, hey, what's standing in the way of the E36 M3 reasserting it's dominance stock solo II? 350Z? Pfft. 968? Maybe... MR2T? Unlikely. RX-8? I actually laughed out loud...

...until I drove it.   

It just does everything better than my M3 on the autocross course. It doesn't push on-power. It doesn't lean like an overloaded pickup. It doesn't take a half turn of the wheel to navigate a slalom. The tires stay on the ground... 

Look, this is going to be THE CAR to have in B Stock, without question. A well driven, well prepared E36 M3 may be able to catch it on Nationals courses if the RX-8 driver is having an off-day, but ... comparing apples to apples with regard to car and driver prep, the RX-8 wins. Period. And the driver will have a great time doing it. I have a great time in my M3 but the fun for me is being an underdog and surprising people.

E46: The E46 M3 is a great car. It's just not a great autocross car. I personally would never buy one, but I can't deny its excellence as an all-around car.

John V

P.S. A modded (BSP) E36 will eat a BSP-prepped RX-8's breakfast, lunch, dinner, and then take its girlfriend out for drinks.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SoloII///M said:


> P.S. A modded (BSP) E36 will eat a BSP-prepped RX-8's breakfast, lunch, dinner, and then take its girlfriend out for drinks.


I would wait for people to start developing the cars before making such pronouncements (even if I'm inclined to agree).

OTOH, the power gains possible for a Renesis motor under the SM ruleset are only beginning to be explored (the name Judge Ito mean anything to you?), and still no one really knows much about what works and what doesn't for everything else that can be done to the car. (All of this assuming that the RX-8 doesn't fall under the "sports car based" SM exclusion.)

Once you get beyond stock legal mods, though, how meaningful are the distinctions between cars anway? When you can replace the parts you don't like with ones you do and make other modifications, they're no longer the same cars, are they?


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

I didn't say SM, I said BSP. I think the RX-8 could be a great SM car if it were allowed to have forced induction. I'm not that familiar with the SM rules with regard to rotaries. 

In BSP I don't think you'll be able to get enough power out of it for the car to be competetive.

Oh, and just to comment on someone's statement about not being able to do any home-mechanic stuff to the RX-8. I personally have torn down and rebuilt two rotary engines. I've done upgrades and troubleshooting on wiring, fuel delivery, emissions equipment (over and over and over again), electronic controls, ignition stuff... everything. Even the 2nd gen cars with their maze of vacuum hoses and the 3rd gen cars with their rows and rows of solenoids were fun and rewarding to work on. 

being able to carry the bare block down to your basement to start a rebuild is a really neat thing.

John V


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

SoloII///M said:


> I think the RX-8 could be a great SM car if it were allowed to have forced induction. I'm not that familiar with the SM rules with regard to rotaries.


18.1. ALLOWED MODIFICATIONS

D. Maximum engine displacement:

Forced induction - 
- 3.0L (OHC engines) 
- 4.0L (pushrod engines) 
Normally aspirated - 
- 6.0L 
Rotary engines (all) - 
- 1.5L


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SoloII///M said:


> I didn't say SM, I said BSP. I think the RX-8 could be a great SM car if it were allowed to have forced induction. I'm not that familiar with the SM rules with regard to rotaries.
> 
> In BSP I don't think you'll be able to get enough power out of it for the car to be competetive.


Power from the Renesis can probably be brought up to near tuned OBDI 95 M3 levels with existing parts, a situation that will likely improve in the next few years as well. Torque? Mmm...probably not so much and that's a real problem. There's not as much room to improve on the suspension because it's so much better out of the box, but there are gains to be had there as well. The RX-8 will still weigh less as well.

I'm not saying that the RX-8 will make a great BSP car (read: as good or better as a 95 M3), but until someone that knows what he's doing tries it, it's an unknown.

I know that you said SP and not SM. My point was that since any arbitrary ruleset places limits on what can be done, and some cars will respond better than others within those rulesets, the car to car comparisons become less meaningful. Once you start fixing what doesn't work well you no longer have the car that you started with.



> being able to carry the bare block down to your basement to start a rebuild is a really neat thing.


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

Cool pic. Does the Renesis have a dry sump, or just a really small oil pan? I mean, the rotary doesn't really have a "sump" per se, since there's no windage, but the 12A/13B/20B oil pans were a lot bigger.

I carried one of those through my house, and into the basement to rebuild it. Twice. Ugh.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SoloII///M said:


> Cool pic. Does the Renesis have a dry sump, or just a really small oil pan? I mean, the rotary doesn't really have a "sump" per se, since there's no windage, but the 12A/13B/20B oil pans were a lot bigger.
> 
> I carried one of those through my house, and into the basement to rebuild it. Twice. Ugh.


They're pretty small. A lot of the oil is held in the oil coolers which are exposed through the front bumper assembly.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

rumratt said:


> Amazing such a small engine can burn so much fuel, huh?  :eeps:


 You know you want one...


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> You know you want one...


 He tried mugging me on Sunday too....


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

He has a standing offer to autocross one in DC any weekend we have an event...


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

:eeps:

http://rotarynews.com/?q=node/view/381

http://www.speedforceracing.com/productsmazda_rx8turbokit.php


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## JST (Dec 19, 2001)

TeamZ4 said:


> :eeps:
> 
> http://rotarynews.com/?q=node/view/381
> 
> http://www.speedforceracing.com/productsmazda_rx8turbokit.php


Oddly, I was looking through the SCCA rulebook and came across a proviso that I hadn't seen before, so I think this might be legal:

"As a rough guide, if your car has modifications beyond this list it is not eligible for Stock Category:

* Anything available on the exact model and year of your car as standard or optional equipment, as installed on the factory assembly line (nothing available only dealer-installed is allowed), plus
* Standard OEM identical replacement parts
* Accessories, gauges, appearance, comfort, and convenience items (not replacement driver's seat, though) that basically don't help
* Added roll bar or roll cage to spec (not required, though)
* Driver harness (no cutting seats to install, though)
* Trailer hitch and/or tow bar mountings
* Any wheel of diameter and width identical to a stock or factory optional wheel, offset within +- 0.25 inch
* Most street legal tires that will fit the mounted wheels and stock bodywork
* Any shock absorber of the same type and mounting as original; no change to standard spring mountings is allowed; suspension geometry may not be altered; gas or hydraulic shocks are permitted
* Any brake linings; pre-1992 cars may use solid/braided metal brake lines.
* Any front anti-roll bar (no change to stock/optional rear anti-roll bar, if present)
* Manufacturer specified ignition settings only
* Any replacement air filter element (or removal of air filter element); no plumbing changes, however
* Engine bored no more than .020"; no balancing or porting/polishing of head
* Replacement of any part of the exhaust system past the catalytic converter (if quiet)
* Any oil filter
* Big ass turbo
* Added clutch scattershield"


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> He has a standing offer to autocross one in DC any weekend we have an event...


 In Jersey too. Next meet he can take mine for the fun run they have. Open invitation


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

rumratt said:


> Amazing such a small engine can burn so much fuel, huh?  :eeps:


Well, two things.

One, it's common for rotaries to get stronger as they break in. It has to do with how the apex seals break in to the chamber. I only saw 95psi compression on my newly built 13BT at 500 miles, but at 5000 miles it was showing 115. It dynoed at 285rwhp at 500 miles and the last dyno of that car was around 335rwhp.

Two, as they break in the mileage improves. My 13BT would get about 16-17MPG on the freeway when it was new, but by the time I sold it (with 7,000 on the motor) it was getting over 20.

I don't know why the renesis would be different. The apex seal technology has not changed significantly. Still, they'll never get great mileage unless Mazda finds a way to get rid of the pockets in the combustion chamber.

John


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SoloII///M said:


> I don't know why the renesis would be different.


20 MB "presentation" on the Renesis and rotary history from Mazda. Can't remember where I found it, though.


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

·clyde· said:


> 20 MB "presentation" on the Renesis and rotary history from Mazda. Can't remember where I found it, though.


Awesome.

But that doesn't provide any counterargument to my statement. I don't see why the new motor should be any different.

John


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

It wasn't meant to. Most of us here don't really understand how a rotary engine works, let alone the differences between the Renesis and earlier rotaries.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> All E46s have nicer interiors that are generally more comfortable than the RX-8's as the compromises BMW made for them are skewed more towards luxury than anything else.


No offense Clyde since I like you:AF330i: but WTF are you smoking ? ?

The E46 interior is nicer ?!?! The only thing I like better about the E46 interior better is the cool volume knob that feels kinda rubbery ... The RX8 gives you a more modern interior and the exterior kicks a**... for some reason you don't like it but I have to admit that whenever I look in my garage and see that RX8 I can't imagine just how much sweeter it gets... now when I look in my driveway it's a different story, all I see is the Allroad (and XC90 but h*ll that's my wife's car) & I can definitely picture a sweet S4 in it's place  ...


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

SoloII///M said:
 

> Awesome.
> 
> But that doesn't provide any counterargument to my statement. I don't see why the new motor should be any different.
> 
> John


they relocated the ports which greatly reduced cruising reversion/overlap without hurting high rpm flow


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

AF-RX8 said:


> No offense Clyde since I like you:AF330i: but WTF are you smoking ? ?
> 
> The E46 interior is nicer ?!?! The only thing I like better about the E46 interior better is the cool volume knob that feels kinda rubbery ... The RX8 gives you a more modern interior and the exterior kicks a**... for some reason you don't like it but I have to admit that whenever I look in my garage and see that RX8 I can't imagine just how much sweeter it gets... now when I look in my driveway it's a different story, all I see is the Allroad (and XC90 but h*ll that's my wife's car) & I can definitely picture a sweet S4 in it's place  ...


 On a totally unrelated note.... I love the XC90, but since you own it, any things you don't like about it, or things that stand out that you do like? I am curious


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## SoloII///M (May 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> they relocated the ports which greatly reduced cruising reversion/overlap without hurting high rpm flow


That's true - but it has nothing to do with the engine's break-in characteristics which are primarily a function of the metallurgy of the apex seals.

What that low overlap DOES tell us is that the Renesis should respond very well to forced induction.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

AF-RX8 said:


> No offense Clyde since I like you:AF330i: but WTF are you smoking ? ?
> 
> The E46 interior is nicer ?!?! The only thing I like better about the E46 interior better is the cool volume knob that feels kinda rubbery ... The RX8 gives you a more modern interior and the exterior kicks a**... for some reason you don't like it but I have to admit that whenever I look in my garage and see that RX8 I can't imagine just how much sweeter it gets...


For one thing, I hate teh "piano black" plastic panels, particularly the ones on the interior door handles. High quality soft plastic/rubber would be SO much better (and my left knee wouldn't get bruised so often. In comparison to the E46, the only interior bits that feel better are two of the most important ones...the wheel and the shifter. When it comes to creature comforts, though, the button placement of the stereo/cruise controls is better on the E46 wheel. I like the upper body bolstering on the RX-8 seats better than the E46 sport seats, but the bar at the bottom of the RX-8 seat is kind of a pain...literally. OTOH, there's nothing in the seat base that's a pain in my ass, unlike your seat. The cover over the central armrest int eh RX-8 feels cheap and chintzy, and pretends that it's about to break every time I get in the car. The joystick like parking brake with the finger guard in the RX-8...:dunno: Kinda seems like, well, a video game joystick. The controls for the nav in the RX-8 are poorly placed, more difficult to operate properly than they should be and are terribly prone to unintentional use. The stero controls are also poorly designed...there's 8 million knobs and buttons and it forces you to look at and think about what you want to do instead of being clean, simple and inituitive. It's also dominated by circles, which is incongruous with the rotary motif (which gets old and looks gimicky itself) that dominates the rest of the interior. All of the switchgear feels terribly cheap compared to what's in the E46 (although the production version is leagues better than the pre-production prototype I sat in in Detroit in Jan '03).

I could go on, but why?

None of that gets in the way of driving, though, and it's how the car drives that sold me on the car.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Hercules said:


> On a totally unrelated note.... I love the XC90, but since you own it, any things you don't like about it, or things that stand out that you do like? I am curious


The XC90 started out as a love hate relationship for the first 3000 miles of ownership because it had a countinous vibration problem and no matter how many times I had the tires balanced it wouldn't go away. I was sure *at that time* that I was trading it in when it hit 1 yr old but after 3000 miles the car became smooth as glass which tells me it was a drivetrain breaking in which caused the vibration ... I had also driven at the dealer other XC90's and they all did the same thing ...

Anyway, we just took a road trip and spent 4 to 5 hours in the car and as the driver it is excellent. The seats are VERY comfortable, the ergonomics are excellent, the interior is very luxurious and has every feature you could ask for . The power is always there and the turbo lag is very minimal. After many hours of driving, fatigue was at a minimum. It really handles very well and doesn't wallow when you hit bumps like some other SUV's I have been in or owned. It comes with Michilen Performance tires which definitely aids in the good handling. Did I mention it is FAST !!! It pulled on my Allroad which has the old S4 engine in a quick race I had with my wife last week.

Also ... whenever it goes in for service they treat you like gold

*The downsides* are the gas mileage sucks ... even on the highway I noticed 20 mpg for part of the trip (which was great) we still averaged about 17 mpg for the whole trip and we usually average around 12 mpg in our normal driving.
Access to getitng intothe 3rd row is not nearly as easy as a minivans especially if you have child seats in the 2nd row then it is a MAJOR pain in the butt. The 3rd row has excellent seats but I feel it is definitely for kids only ... I have 3 small children so for a trip using the 3 row is great but the storage space is tiny behind the 3rd row which makes packing for trips kind of tough. I have/had all 3 family type vehicles (SUV,Wagon & minivan) and no doubt a minivan is the best for trips and easiest when you have small children.

Anyway I definitely recommend it to anyone looking for an SUV.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> For one thing, I hate teh "piano black" plastic panels, particularly the ones on the interior door handles. High quality soft plastic/rubber would be SO much better (and my left knee wouldn't get bruised so often. In comparison to the E46, the only interior bits that feel better are two of the most important ones...the wheel and the shifter. When it comes to creature comforts, though, the button placement of the stereo/cruise controls is better on the E46 wheel. I like the upper body bolstering on the RX-8 seats better than the E46 sport seats, but the bar at the bottom of the RX-8 seat is kind of a pain...literally. OTOH, there's nothing in the seat base that's a pain in my ass, unlike your seat. The cover over the central armrest int eh RX-8 feels cheap and chintzy, and pretends that it's about to break every time I get in the car. The joystick like parking brake with the finger guard in the RX-8...:dunno: Kinda seems like, well, a video game joystick. The controls for the nav in the RX-8 are poorly placed, more difficult to operate properly than they should be and are terribly prone to unintentional use. The stero controls are also poorly designed...there's 8 million knobs and buttons and it forces you to look at and think about what you want to do instead of being clean, simple and inituitive. It's also dominated by circles, which is incongruous with the rotary motif (which gets old and looks gimicky itself) that dominates the rest of the interior. All of the switchgear feels terribly cheap compared to what's in the E46 (although the production version is leagues better than the pre-production prototype I sat in in Detroit in Jan '03).
> 
> I could go on, but why?
> 
> None of that gets in the way of driving, though, and it's how the car drives that sold me on the car.


That pain the ass on mine is now gone since it was a sensor in the seat (thanks shop manual for that info) and I pushed on it VERY hard and whatever I did, it is no longer bothersome, in fact I forgot I even had that problem when I first got it ... also that bar doesn't seem to bother me either but it is definitely a common complaint and should be addressed. In fact I think Mazda should put more effort into making the seat a little more cushiony & moe comfortable. No doubt in my mind the E46 sport seat is more comfortable.

Also I just got this cushion and eventhough I never had a complaint about the center console I can't beleive how freakin comfortable this pad is ... it made me realize that the 8 could use more cushioning all around like where my right knee hits the center console, the armrest on the door, etc.

I find the HVAC consoles to be easier to use in the Mazda and I like how they isn't 'auto' mode. I think the steering wheel buttons aren't any better or worse then the E46 and I think the overall interior seems to be of high quality and every switch feels very solid ... I don't have the nav but I could see how it doesn't look nearly as integrated as the E46 and the heated seat switches do look like an afterthought ... hmmm ... you make some good points ... I guess I am swayed to your detailed thoughts and am in agreement with you ...

I wouldn't say the E46 is lightyears ahead of the 8 but it is slightly better in overall quality ... thought the E46 has those chinzy cup holders but at least they aren't hidden under a center console which pretty much makes the 8's center console cushion useless when having a drink ...


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## Ashe too (Dec 22, 2001)

Andy -- Wheel tire combo help needed. Check your PM. :typing:


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

JST said:


> I do like the M3. It's a great car. It offers a formidable blend of performance and luxury. It's a very comfortable freeway car, and it's very fast in a straight line.
> 
> But the RX-8 is a better handling car, and is more fun to drive. That's all I'm saying. And as the competition has improved, I find it harder and harder to justify paying what BMW asks for the M3. It's just not, IMHO, worth it.


I agree. Well, kind of. I'm still a firm believer that you get what you pay for... However, pretty much every manufacturer is in motorsports these days and the lessons they learn on the tracks are applied to the cars we drive... So, it is possible to buy a driver's car in the 30 - 35K range.



> On a road course, I think the RX-8 would still be more fun. The M3 would probably be faster, depending on the number and length of straightaways, but there's not a doubt in my mind that the RX-8 would be a more rewarding drive.


Here's where I disagree... If you get a chance, watch one of the Best Motoring videos - Rotary Reborn - where they compare a bunch of cars - RX-7, RX-8, G35, S2K, etc. The G35 was the heaviest on the track and if I remember right, none of the lighter cars were able to outperform it... If the M3 was in that comparo, I have no doubt it would've won...


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## Hercules (Jul 15, 2002)

ALEX325i said:


> I agree. Well, kind of. I'm still a firm believer that you get what you pay for... However, pretty much every manufacturer is in motorsports these days and the lessons they learn on the tracks are applied to the cars we drive... So, it is possible to buy a driver's car in the 30 - 35K range.
> 
> Here's where I disagree... If you get a chance, watch one of the Best Motoring videos - Rotary Reborn - where they compare a bunch of cars - RX-7, RX-8, G35, S2K, etc. The G35 was the heaviest on the track and if I remember right, none of the lighter cars were able to outperform it... If the M3 was in that comparo, I have no doubt it would've won...


 Those Best Motoring videos take place on the Tsukaba (sp?) track... long straights don't equal friends for the RX-8 but as I recall, the S2K usually comes out on top in those videos, because Gan-San drives the car, and he's a pro driver for Honda and knows the S2K like the back of his hand.


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## localipimpin (Nov 19, 2004)

stock e46 m3 has a lot of understeer. I think they made it like that on purpose. I have never driven an rx8, but i think a tuned m3 will smoke a tuned rx8 on the track that is for sure. The m3 isnt meant for the track in stock form, especialy if you have the 19's on it. Then the 18's arnt wide enough. The brakes are ishh after 5 laps. My point is i dont think comparing a stock m3 is fair. I havent seen rx8 racecars get laptimes like m3 racecars, and im not talking about the gtr. So i think for all around performance an m3 is a better base for sure, even though i have never tested an rx8 on a track.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2004)

localipimpin said:


> stock e46 m3 has a lot of understeer. I think they made it like that on purpose. I have never driven an rx8, but i think a tuned m3 will smoke a tuned rx8 on the track that is for sure. The m3 isnt meant for the track in stock form, especialy if you have the 19's on it. Then the 18's arnt wide enough. The brakes are ishh after 5 laps. My point is i dont think comparing a stock m3 is fair. I havent seen rx8 racecars get laptimes like m3 racecars, and im not talking about the gtr. So i think for all around performance an m3 is a better base for sure, even though i have never tested an rx8 on a track.


 Hold on... let me get this straight...

You are saying that the M3, while costing more than twice that of the RX8, shouldn't necessarily be compared to an RX8 because the M3 sucks in stock form?

Ouch.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> the M3, while costing more than twice that of the RX8


um, no


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

atyclb said:


> um, no


Since the M3/RX8 comparison frequently comes back to mine and Nick's cars and mine, um yes.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

having a hard time this evening. Please excuse me.


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## localipimpin (Nov 19, 2004)

I never said you cant compare them i was comparing them. I was just saying that an m3 is better on the track. M3 stock form isnt for the track, thats all i was saying, I mean you could barely do a couple laps because of the brakes. When i compare track cars i like to compare the potential of their,(chassis, engine.......) has. 


TD said:


> Hold on... let me get this straight...
> 
> You are saying that the M3, while costing more than twice that of the RX8, shouldn't necessarily be compared to an RX8 because the M3 sucks in stock form?
> 
> Ouch.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

The powe rof the M3 means that it'll kill the RX-8 on essentially any road course. That doesn't mean the handling's anywhere near that of the RX-8.

It took the following to get my car to turn in nearly as well as the RX-8 (although feel is still abysmal):
TC Kline D/A Coilovers with 600lbs springs in front and 800lbs. springs in the rear.
Ground Control Sways
And a rather aggressive alignment. (I run 4.5 degrees of negative front camber. Full time.)


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