# 2014 Cadillac CTS Vsport



## Bmwlvr60 (Oct 28, 2012)

LOL

Okay, I'm in the mood. Yes, this is a BMW forum and many people here are passionate about their BMW. Go to a Cadillac forum and I'm sure posters there are discussing why they think Cadillac is better than BMW and how people should give them a try and buy American and support the UAW. 

I can't stand the UAW. They built horrible cars for so long. Cars that my parents bought and I saw rust out at young ages- some A-Hole once told me we had a Monday or Friday car. So it was okay for these lazy, over paid and undereducated people to goof off 40% of the work week? And then management of these American car companies looked the other way? 

Yes, Cadillac is better than it used to be. I don't care. I still have awful memories of terrible cars that my parents continued to buy. 

Image: I still associate people who own Cadillacs as fat and old. And where I live, guys who have an accent that only Central Casting would want.

Fun to drive and luxurious: tough to compete with BMW for this. 

Yes, I did drink the BMW Kool-Aid, but it was tasty and in the past year I've seen the light and its shining on the BMW roundels in my garage. My 5 Series, by a wide margin, is the best car I've ever owned. And my X3 is the best SUV I've ever been in- fun to drive and handles better than any car I ever previously owned.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> LOL
> 
> Yes, I did drink the BMW Kool-Aid, but it was tasty and in the past year I've seen the light and its shning on the BMW roundels in my garage. My 5 Series, by a wide margin, is the best car I've ever owned. And my X3 is the best SUV I've ever been in- fun to drive and handles better than any car I ever previously owned.


I would suggest they won't be anymore....we'll see.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> LOL
> 
> I saw rust out at young ages- some A-Hole once told me we had a Monday or Friday car. So it was okay for these lazy, over paid and undereducated people to goof off 40% of the work week? And then management of these American car companies looked the other way?
> .


LOL LOL LOL LOL....Honda, Toyota and even Hyundai were rust buckets....just cheap. What a bunch of crap when the were introduced. They just dumped the product in the US and guys like you thought they were good product. My goodness...they were crap.


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## MOCKBA (Nov 1, 2013)

I agree that price is high, generally a dealer wanted to give a good discount but still I didn't get my lease payments as I wanted. BMW offered me more close to my budget restriction. I did drive CTS-V 2013 and I wasn't impressed with performance. Jaguar XK is noticeably faster. So I excluded Cadillac from my shopping list. So I stuck mostly with BMW and Mercedes. I really want to try some other car but either price, style, performance, build quality are not satisfactory.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> LOL LOL LOL LOL....Honda, Toyota and even Hyundai were rust buckets....just cheap. What a bunch of crap when the were introduced. They just dumped the product in the US and guys like you thought they were good product. My goodness...they were crap.


Nobody said they were good, simply that they sold and finally made the US auto makers do something different. And I said different, some were better, some weren't.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

bjayfan said:


> Nobody said they were good, simply that they sold and finally made the US auto makers do something different. And I said different, some were better, some weren't.


They faked you and us out. It was bull****. And it still is. Educated, affluent North Americans, buy too may European cars in my view. The American cars are very good I think and I'm going that way. Don't you and all of the forum members really really really want to embrace something North American? I get enthusiasm for a brand a niche, etc. .. I do. But American cars are coming back. Give them a chance.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> Educated, affluent North Americans, buy too may European cars in my view.


Trolls and Red Bull are mutually exclusive in my view.


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## Bmwlvr60 (Oct 28, 2012)

I've owned 8 Japanese cars and every one of them was ultra reliable and not one of them had rust issues. Anecdotally, in my wide network of friends and acquaintances , almost everyone had the same experience as me.

During the same 25 or so years, friends and acquaintances who owned Big 3 cars had numerous issues. Honda and Toyota continue to build ultra reliable cars, go to www.consumerreports.com.

What are you smoking tonight, Peter? Nobody thinks Honda and Toyota builds bad cars.

I bought a couple of BMWs because they are incredible fun and luxurious.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> I've owned 8 Japanese cars and every one of them was ultra reliable and not one of them had rust issues. Anecdotally, in my wide network of friends and acquaintances , almost everyone had the same experience as me.
> 
> During the same 25 or so years, friends and acquaintances who owned Big 3 cars had numerous issues. Honda and Toyota continue to build ultra reliable cars, go to www.consumerreports.com.
> 
> ...


You are plausibly younger than I am, but the Japanese cars rusted like a tin can when they were introduced in North America. I was a Honda devotee. after my first car...a Camaro, I had a CRX Honda, then an Accord, and many others then an Acura TL and few others after that. I had a number of VW's with their own set of problems. I get the whole thing....but the Big 3 are back. Forget the past.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

bjayfan said:


> Trolls and Red Bull are mutually exclusive in my view.


Good wine goes anytime.


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## Fastpaddler (Sep 29, 2013)

It might be prudent gentlemen to look at the signs of the times. We need to look at the closing gap between a mainstream average car with most of the modern day technical toys:abs,nav,power everything, multi-plug ins for all media types, self-parking,avoidance systems etc. and, we should note, the more high end vehicles. The price of a BMW,Audi,MB,Volvo,yes, and Cadillac needs to be evaluated in terms of value for money. But, as I have noted before, the RESALE residual value of any vehicle tells you what the market will pay and not how we feel emotionally about our own set of wheels. Depreciation is a big factor. Sure, the sheer joy of driving a 5 series, for example, is hard to quantify in economic terms but, then again, for those who keep these cars for a long time, the basic engineering and, long term reliability are salient factors. For me, if I enjoy any car because it fits my esthetic tastes, drives the way I like it, satisfies my ego or other appetites, then it is really only academic. That is why we have Ford and Chrysler and CHev fans who stick with their well-loved car brand. But, others, like me will shift if we find a quality car which meets our own criteria. The Cadillac of old was no worse or better than many of it's generational peers. Many early Japanese marques were dreadful, to say the least. Nowadays we see the Koreans beating the Japenese at their own marketing game and, American cars are becoming quite competitive. In the luxury world though one has to look at the price brackets and what is available. The 40 to 70K bracket is a hot market range. I have driven just about every marque in that range and I bought another BMW.But, I would consider,yes, consider even a Cadillac if I were really convinced. My dear friend drives a 2002 Toyota Camry and is happy as a clam. He appreciates my Bimmer but I doubt he understands why I would pay so much money for one!! Hmmm.....


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> Good wine goes anytime.


lol, there you go, one man's swill is another man's chardonnay, same with cars.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Fastpaddler said:


> It might be prudent gentlemen to look at the signs of the times. We need to look at the closing gap between a mainstream average car with most of the modern day technical toys:abs,nav,power everything, multi-plug ins for all media types, self-parking,avoidance systems etc. and, we should note, the more high end vehicles. The price of a BMW,Audi,MB,Volvo,yes, and Cadillac needs to be evaluated in terms of value for money. But, as I have noted before, the RESALE residual value of any vehicle tells you what the market will pay and not how we feel emotionally about our own set of wheels. Depreciation is a big factor. Sure, the sheer joy of driving a 5 series, for example, is hard to quantify in economic terms but, then again, for those who keep these cars for a long time, the basic engineering and, long term reliability are salient factors. For me, if I enjoy any car because it fits my esthetic tastes, drives the way I like it, satisfies my ego or other appetites, then it is really only academic. That is why we have Ford and Chrysler and CHev fans who stick with their well-loved car brand. But, others, like me will shift if we find a quality car which meets our own criteria. The Cadillac of old was no worse or better than many of it's generations. Many early Japanese marques were dreadful, to say the least. Nowadays we see the Koreans beating the Japenese at their own marketing game and, American cars are becoming quite competitive. In the luxury world though one has to look at the price brackets and what is available. The 40 to 70K bracket is a hot market range. I have driven just about every marque in that range and I bought another BMW.But, I would consider,yes, consider even a Cadillac if I were really convinced. My dear friend drives a 2002 Toyota Camry and is happy as a clam. He appreciates my Bimmer but I doubt he understands why I would pay so much money for one!! Hmmm.....


Ahhhhhh, now you are talking my game. In the US, the BMW residual values are very very favourable. Maybe at a 10% advantage to the Canadian BMW residual values. Why? They want to buy market share all day long. Cadillac is a good brand, good car, excellent performer. Support your industry.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

bjayfan said:


> lol, there you go, one man's swill is another man's chardonnay, same with cars.


Well...no. Swill is really swill. Cadillac is not swill.


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## Bmwlvr60 (Oct 28, 2012)

My son asked me to check out the Cadillacs. I test drove the ATS and was not impressed. His and his friend's image of the Cadillac brand is different than mine. It was definitely the best Cadillac I've ever been in, but for the ATS to be compared to a 3 Series is a long stretch. 

Cadillac getting better is a good thing. GM needs to take control of their dealers- it's an awful experience to go into a dealer in NJ. The Japanese and Germans have been beating up GM for so long, finally they may be changing their ways.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

I will say though bjayfan...The American cars have something going on...I can't put my finger on it...but it is real. They are back. And it is good. You just feel it. And with BIG horsepower.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> My son asked me to check out the Cadillacs. I test drove the ATS and was not impressed. His and his friend's image of the Cadillac brand is different than mine. It was definitely the best Cadillac I've ever been in, but for the ATS to be compared to a 3 Series is a long stretch.
> 
> Cadillac getting better is a good thing. GM needs to take control of their dealers- it's an awful experience to go into a dealer in NJ. The Japanese and Germans have been beating up GM for so long, finally they may be changing their ways.


If your son asked you to do that...it's good.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> Well...no. Swill is really swill. Cadillac is not swill.


I agree, but then it's not quite a BMW yet either.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> I will say though bjayfan...The American cars have something going on...I can't put my finger on it...but it is real. They are back. And it is good. You just feel it. And with BIG horsepower.


Now that I will agree with. I wanted to like the CTS-V a number of years ago, and it wasn't just the power, the driving dynamics were/are excellent. But it was all surrounded by cheap. Maybe cheap is too strong or the wrong word, but that's what it felt like.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

bjayfan said:


> I agree, but then it's not quite a BMW yet either.


Ahh...come on... I have so many German cars...I"m gonna change. You know why? Hype. The GM cars are good. What am I ranting about??? What am I doing???? I'm Canadian. Where are the US guys here?? Are you guys working for BMW...come clean.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

bjayfan said:


> Now that I will agree with. I wanted to like the CTS-V a number of years ago, and it wasn't just the power, the driving dynamics were/are excellent. But it was all surrounded by cheap. Maybe cheap is too strong or the wrong word, but that's what it felt like.


 Not anymore...Live a little.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> I'm Canadian. Where are the US guys here?? Are you guys working for BMW...come clean.


You aren't driving Canadian?


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

bjayfan said:


> You aren't driving Canadian?


Actually, good question. If you drive any number of cars from Civic, to Camaro, to a number of Fords to Toyota, you are driving Canadian. Like Honda in Ohio. But American is where it's at.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> Actually, good question. If you drive any number of cars from Civic, to Camaro, to a number of Fords to Toyota, you are driving Canadian. Like Honda in Ohio. But American is where it's at.


Like BMW in SC?


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

You know, all said and done. It is kinda weird to be on a German car forum in North America, living in North America. You have to boil it down to it being a niche thing. Imagine if there was a confrontation...just imagine.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

bjayfan said:


> Like BMW in SC?


Yah, that's right. No doubt. But we as North Americans buy them....we buy them...we buy them... soon, if it keeps going, your currency will change..... LOL


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## ahmadddd (Jul 22, 2013)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> I've read that and the opinion of "experts" is a joke. Please go test drive an ATS and tell us what you think. I test drove an ATS and it was a couch on wheels. Handles better than an F30? It barely handles better than a Buick.
> 
> Oh, and if you're in NJ you have to put up with the knuckle dragging, Sopranos wannabes that work in Cadillac dealers. The most unprofessional group of old farts I've ever seen gathered outside of a used car dealer. One guy had a bad rug on his head, another one had THICK "joisey" accent, another had oil in his hair and not one wore a suit worth more than $100.


LoooL... Yup I went to a very big and fancy Cadillac showroom in north jersey.. an old italian fart tried to take a shot of me.

I asked him:

What about the national offer? Answer: No idea, it depends on options, mileage, bank,..etc!!

What about a fully loaded car lease offer? Answer, when you really decide to buy we can calculate the numbers for you.. it depends on which bank you choose, options, mileage, ..etc here you can piecemeal it! we are not like other manufacturers!

What about the add I recieved by mail with national offer? Answer: I don't care, this is bs and most probably not real!

If I bring you an offer do you match it? Answer, you have to bring it in writing then I might be able to do something!! How to bring it in writing? Go to another dealer negotiate and when they bring you the contract to sign take it and tell them will come back later and bring it to me!!!

****ty arrogant guy with Cadillac pin on his jacket (Same as the one politicians wear with America's flag).

Bottom line, they will confuse you and won't give you a price to compare to other cars and make sure that you don't get a price until you really about to sign so they can take a shot of you!! I am sure an XTS would have probably coast $700/month + Tax and 2-3K down..

I ended up going to BMW and leased my F10 for $665/Month including NJ tax, $0 Down ($68700 car)

Also, I could get a fully loaded Lexus GS 350(Fully Loaded with Adaptive suspension +Luxury Line) for $500/Month or $420/Month with one pay lease. Or MB E class with P1 package for $460/Month.

If they really wana sell, they should change the strategy and have some real national offers for a fully loaded ATS, XTS, CTS cars so the dealer won't be able to confuse the customer! Same as Lexus, no headache as they have two combinations for most of their cars (Semi Loaded and Fully Loaded) and we all know the lease offer for each of them.

Also they have to force the dealers to sell cars to leasing companies as a lot of people like me go directly to a leasing company to avoid the dealer bs...


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## ahmadddd (Jul 22, 2013)

Shiltsy said:


> Nice weight savings, but lack of AWD and subpar CUE infotainment system are deal killers vs. 550xi. The exterior is much improved but still not my favorite.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


You shouldnt compare.. the 5 series is a very big car and based on the 7 series chassis while the CTS is based on the smaller ATS with a very low built line which makes it look small in the street.. I saw one the other day and thought that it was an ATS because of the low built line!!

Also, BMW, MB, and Audi were tested and proved to be very reliable as they resolved the reliability issues they had in the 80s and early 90s.

All american cars reputation has been trannished due to the poor quality and reliability issues starting from 1985 to 2009 when they started picking up again. I believe for 2-3 years lease there won't be a problem for me however they still need to prove that their new cars are as reliable and durable as the german and Japanese cars so this can help raising the residual value which is the main factor in calculating a lease and providing competitive offers.. otherwise they won't be able to compete and provide good lease offers as the residual will stay as is.


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## Needsdecaf (Sep 8, 2006)

PeterC4 said:


> Ahh...come on... I have so many German cars...I"m gonna change. You know why? Hype. The GM cars are good. What am I ranting about??? What am I doing???? I'm Canadian. Where are the US guys here?? Are you guys working for BMW...come clean.


Your posts in this thread went from mildly amusing to tinfoil hat. Seriously, get a grip. We're all anti-American BMW butt-snifferd who can't stand to have anything other than the Roundel on our hood? Please. Get off your soapbox, Obama needs it back.

Youre basing this rant inn several reviews from sympathetic mags that have been wined and dined by GM. Is the car any good? I'm sure it is, but you ding know that because you havent driven one yet. Likely that this car won't be any closer to the perfect car than the F10 is.

Sent from my SCH-I925 using BimmerApp mobile app


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## rauan (Aug 7, 2012)

Alan L. said:


> Love the front end but i hate all Cadillac rears. Looks like your average grandpa's car from the back.
> 
> Alan


Agree, it is such an ugly car from the back!


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## Bmwlvr60 (Oct 28, 2012)

Needsdecaf said:


> Your posts in this thread went from mildly amusing to tinfoil hat. Seriously, get a grip. We're all anti-American BMW butt-snifferd who can't stand to have anything other than the Roundel on our hood? Please. Get off your soapbox, Obama needs it back.
> 
> Youre basing this rant inn several reviews from sympathetic mags that have been wined and dined by GM. Is the car any good? I'm sure it is, but you ding know that because you havent driven one yet. Likely that this car won't be any closer to the perfect car than the F10 is.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I925 using BimmerApp mobile app


Needsdecaf:

I think Peter was drunk and/or high last night. I've never seen so many off the wall postings lined up together in this forum.

Also, it may surprise you to know that NJ has many conservatives. I realize that there are more in The Great State of TX.

Here's a cut/paste thread I started in the X3 forum that you may enjoy:

Car Magazine Reviews
I have to tell you folks that I'm always skeptical with most reviews I read. I'm especially skeptical of the ones in magazines that receive huge revenues from the car companies in the form of advertising.

So a plausible scenario Is the following: a writer for Road and Track or one of the other car magazines is invited to a cocktail party for the introduction of a new model car. He's wined and dined by car manufacturer's executives. Maybe there are some females there who flirt with the writer and it's a fun day for the writer. He gets to test drive the new model, eat some high quality food and hang out with some powerful people and beautiful women. In the meanwhile the advertising department at R&T has already collected money from the car manufacturer for advertising- lots of money.

Do you think it's possible that the writer may be influenced by the goings on that day? Do you think that it's possible that the advertising department who's going to place an ad in the very same magazine or electronic version of the magazine that the writer's review will appear may have some influence over the writer? Do you think that the writer would like to be invited back to an event in the future and is concerned that if he's too critical he won't be?

I'm involved in marketing, and also in politics. The unethical ways people conduct themselves AT TIMES is very disappointing.

I absolutely don't think my scenerio is the norm, but I KNOW it can happen.

I mostly rely on Consumer Reports for car reviews and secondly on people on these forums. You people are great! I love all the back and forth and objective and subjective commentary based on your love of cars and research.

I think the geeky, liberal, pink panty wearing guys who used to get their lunch stolen every day in high school, losers at Consumer Reports who couldn't get laid with a wad of 100 dollar bills at a whorehouse, are much more reliable than all the other car magazines combined. And the liberal women who work at CR who wear comfortable shoes and aren't even attractive enough for those same guys are equally reliable. They don't accept any advertising and that's all you mostly need to know about them. Oh, and they have a state of the art testing facility and buy all the cars they test secretly.

LOL, I truly look forward to your replies.

And if you're offended by this you don't have a sense of humor even though "you know you do".

 :rofl:  :thumbup:


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## ahmadddd (Jul 22, 2013)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> Needsdecaf:
> 
> I think Peter was drunk and/or high last night. I've never seen so many off the wall postings lined up together in this forum.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, most of these magazines and websites like Edmunds, Car and Driver,..etc make huge amount of profit based on the money they receive from car manufacturers for advertising and some other stuff (Under the table).

Its all about money and business, if you don't pay they will post a bad review about your product until you pay! once you pay they change the review and the product becomes good!!! All about money.. its business and thats how they survive!

Example, I remember very well how the 2012 Infiniti M review was bad with low rating in every aspect compared to a BMW 5 series and taken the high Price of the Infiniti and its Tech package they chose the BMW!!!

4 months later, I was looking for this review and couldn't find it!!! Found great reviews on Edmunds and Car and Driver,..etc instead!! Looks like Infiniti did what it supposed to do 

The 2013 Lexus GS, Toyota paid a hell of a money to push the car forward.. Edmund's site was full of the new GS Adds and lease offers!!! And the funniest thing was a big review for the car comparing it to MB, Audi, 5 Series and Lexus won the competition with number 1. The reviewer tried to convince people that its a better car than its german rivals !!

It doesn't make sense to post some ads for a particular car on the site and publish a negative review about the same car on the same site!!!

Excuse my Language, I am not native english speaker.


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## Fastpaddler (Sep 29, 2013)

Your English is very good and points well presented. I speak Japanese(and other languages) but not German yet I have a BMW.
2. What really surprises me with all the email traffic on the F10 site is how many people are LEASING!!! I guess leasing is a better prospect in the US than here. BMWs are also cheaper Stateside than in Canada. Groan.
AL


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Needsdecaf said:


> Your posts in this thread went from mildly amusing to tinfoil hat. Seriously, get a grip. We're all anti-American BMW butt-snifferd who can't stand to have anything other than the Roundel on our hood? Please. Get off your soapbox, Obama needs it back.
> 
> Youre basing this rant inn several reviews from sympathetic mags that have been wined and dined by GM. Is the car any good? I'm sure it is, but you ding know that because you havent driven one yet. Likely that this car won't be any closer to the perfect car than the F10 is.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I925 using BimmerApp mobile app


I can't quite decipher tinfoil hat, but Obama is your problem, not mine and I surely don't want his soapbox. I'm sure you could speculate as to the motivations of all the car reviewers as we have above, and just how they derive their opinions, but that is a little bit more of the same problem. There are many anti_"North American" BMW butt -sniffer(s)", but let's forget your graphic description. (I wanted to include the Great White North in the "North American" as we are not exempt.) It's the condemnation of the car before anyone has driven it that seems to be so typical of many these days and where GM and the others have a big battle. Cadillac and the North American's were such leaders in the industry, only to find themselves at the back of the pack for a number of reasons that we could all write a paper on not to mention some of the the OEMs come from protected markets that provide them with special benefits. The US is pretty good at free markets and consumers benefit no doubt.

Anyway, you are right, I haven't driven a Cadillac yet. But that is my point. It may be quite good, and I think, based on what I have seen in the videos I've watched, and the performance to 60 or in the quarter mile, it looks like a real contender. I'm willing to give it a chance. Image, perception are often mixed with buying decisions and to be fair, factor into residual values, which factor into overall cost, etc. Sometimes you have to get past perception and go see for yourself - I'm going to do that and find out.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> Needsdecaf:
> 
> I think Peter was drunk and/or high last night. I've never seen so many off the wall postings lined up together in this forum. .....
> 
> ...


Well, I wasn't although your description above is quite indicative of bar talk and some good ole' fashioned chugging. LOL  Okay, just kidding.

I don't know how these guys do it, and I have been a reader of Road & Track, Car and Driver and others for a long time when I was younger. Maybe it was me, but there were a lot of facts you couldn't really camouflage and they really did emphasize the quality gap between North American and Japanese cars of the day. And they were huge supporters of the BMW 3 series often referred to as one of the best cars in the world. Like I said in the post above, best to try it for yourself and see.


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## Needsdecaf (Sep 8, 2006)

Bmwlvr60 said:


> Needsdecaf:
> 
> I think Peter was drunk and/or high last night. I've never seen so many off the wall postings lined up together in this forum.
> 
> ...


1. I grew up in NY and lived in NJ. I definitely know the demographic.

2. visit www.thetruthaboutcars.com. What you wrote about above is wrong, dead wrong. You said you "absolutely don't think your scenario is the norm". That's where you are dead wrong....it is the norm, it happens ALL the time with EVERY car buff mag. Spend some time on that site. You'll learn your view is the truth... Some light reading for you: http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spins

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...arned-to-stop-worrying-and-hate-the-panamera/


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## 2010drive (Jul 24, 2012)

bjayfan said:


> Now that I will agree with. I wanted to like the CTS-V a number of years ago, and it wasn't just the power, the driving dynamics were/are excellent. But it was all surrounded by cheap. Maybe cheap is too strong or the wrong word, but that's what it felt like.


Surrounded by cheap? Was it the leather/suede recaro's that bothered you? The suede steering wheel? The leather dash? :dunno:


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## Bmwlvr60 (Oct 28, 2012)

As I stated previously, I did test drive the ATS and didn't like it. I am going to go back and will test drive the CTS with an open mind. However, I need to find a different dealer. I'll never set foot into the North Plainfield, NJ Cadillac dealer again.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

Needsdecaf said:


> Your posts in this thread went from mildly amusing to tinfoil hat. Seriously, get a grip. We're all anti-American BMW butt-snifferd who can't stand to have anything other than the Roundel on our hood? Please. Get off your soapbox, Obama needs it back.
> 
> Youre basing this rant inn several reviews from sympathetic mags that have been wined and dined by GM. Is the car any good? I'm sure it is, but you ding know that because you havent driven one yet. Likely that this car won't be any closer to the perfect car than the F10 is.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I925 using BimmerApp mobile app


Lol. :rofl:



PeterC4 said:


> Imagine if you just amplified the BMW "vibration" threads in this forum or the "soft steering" threads, or the "expensive to repair" threads and how the F10 is not true to form?? I'm not willing to pound the NEW Cadillac into the ground like you guys from the US. The Cadillac seems like a real contender. As Americans, I would have thought you would support it. Are BMW roundels issued at US dealerships such that you guys wear them as "teats" you flash at the golf club like strippers?? What is going on actually? Is the debt ceiling just waiting to be pushed to the limit so the Euro overtakes the US dollar and you ask the Germans what to do? I am mystified at the orgasmic devotion to the BMW. It is a good car- Given. Maybe it is like a forum thing, but I have often wondered who does post here? Enthusiasts for sure, but is it representative? How can a country like the US, be so self destructive? What is it, that actually makes you pre-judge the cars? This is from a nation that defined the auto industry. Come on, give your industry a chance.


Unfortunately you seemed to have had some personal chip on shoulder effect tap into you on this subject.

GM/Americans built crap for years. They built THE single most unsafe vehicles on the roads, the most compromised crap that had no care for the safety and well being of the people who bought them. They put no attention towards building a cachet, instead bloated their businesses with re-badged versions of other crappy cars and way too many pointless derivative brands which at one point in time did actually have a rich history of their own.

Then what happened? Those pieces of junks stopped selling to the points of needing a Government handout, costing taxpayers money. Oh, but yeah, we're Americans, the fact that we don't back up our own failures means we have "pride" which is a good thing.... 

You have touched on something true, which is that America is a country divided, at this point so diverse in opinions and heritage that there isn't a singular "united" feel around here. For better or worse. Americans are very quick to hate their own, and support other countries products, for better or worse. "Better" being that American built products haven't always been the best. I honestly find stuff assembled in China these days to have better fit and finish in many cases. Look at American infrastructure, etc. We developed a culture of laziness when it comes to how "perfect" our workforce does things somewhere along the lines.

Then "Worse" being in the case of a company like Apple, who revolutionized the world, almost singlehandedly brought homegrown consumerism to the top of the food chain in modern times, had the rest of the world copy their every move and showed that America can do what others do.... even better. However you saw recently what I considered an unwarranted backlash and demonizing towards Apple, with Americans trying to defend a company like Samsung who clearly ripped off and stole Apple's IP. It's gotta be nice for a company like Samsung to have not only their own Country defending their stealing practices towards an American company, but also see Americans doing the same. That's how an American consumer company will never get anywhere.... i.e when they're one of the GOOD ones and still don't earn the support of their "people" in the same ways their competitors' countries will to them.

As for solidity, all the stuff you mentioned about the F10 are irrelevant and meaningless. The Caddies I've driven in literally felt LOOSE in terms of chassis, like they were falling apart after just a couple of years, i.e a 2010 CTS for one. That's one area that continues to plague American cars. BMW's and Benzes run around with tons of mileage and still feel as solid as new.



2010drive said:


> Surrounded by cheap? Was it the leather/suede recaro's that bothered you? The suede steering wheel? The leather dash? :dunno:


They can put diamonds and suede everywhere, however unfortunately for them, inherent "quality" is a multi-step process. It's the weight of the buttons, the grain of the plastics, how everything feels in terms of solidity. Germans put tons of focus into tactile quality, and GM simply don't, however they're getting MUCH better. The previous CTS had some nice materials, but everything felt cheesy, the details namely, the switches, the dome light area, it gave an aura of an inherently cheap car with some fancy materials swathed throughout it.


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## sb535 (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't think a CTS V Sport is going to lease out anywhere near as competitive as a 550 for the money I'll take the BMW


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## 2010drive (Jul 24, 2012)

K-A said:


> Again, I have a higher sensitivity to quality materials than you do, simply put. It's all important to me. *How dumb of M-B for wasting time putting nice aluminum buttons on the S Class. they could have used the same plastic ones available on a Chevy Malibu and pleased ya! *
> 
> And yeah it does. That's why I require a high quality and rigid door pull. In a Corvette, with a flexing door panel, I'd have to feel all that flex when I pull it closed at high speeds. In the Bimmer, my 80 MPH door-close-pulls are met with no door panel resistance. :bigpimp:


Like the plastic ones on your BMW? Corvette doors don't open themselves on the freeway so you don't need to worry about "all that flex".


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## bimmerbeamer (Nov 6, 2013)

This thread delivers. Lots of fan bois make for a good read.


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## Fastpaddler (Sep 29, 2013)

Incidentally, regardless of which type BMW you are driving, a surprising percentage of the materials, switchgear, electronic systems and yes, even the basic dashboard look and layout--are ALMOST THE SAME. The window switches from a 3 series are the same as in a 550. Is there a law against this. What an insult to the high end buyers. Just saying....

AL


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## 1973BMW (Jan 6, 2013)

You guys are complaining about panel gaps, while my now departed 2011 550 sport sputtered and bucked for months until they finally replaced all the fuel injectors when I took it in and said "I won't take this car back until you put in all new injectors...period." They did. Now I see on this board a member who has a 2013 having the same issues. 

Door panel gaps? How about if the damn things won't start or leave you stranded on a freeway? I'll take a gap. BMW used to be the only game in town in many folks opinion. Mine included. No more. 

Until we, as buyers, convince them that we won't take anything less than The Ultimate Driving Machine (which it no longer is) then you're going to continue to see these big bloated BMW's floating along the roads. 

Cadillac is taking weight off of their cars and tightening up the suspensions while adding horsepower. BMW's are getting bigger, gaining weight and putting nonsense monikers like
"M Sport" on all their models. I heard a motor journalist say it best "What does the M stand for now with BMW....Marketing."


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## Stealth.Pilot (Jul 2, 2009)

1973BMW said:


> You guys are complaining about panel gaps, while my now departed 2011 550 sport sputtered and bucked for months until they finally replaced all the fuel injectors when I took it in and said "I won't take this car back until you put in all new injectors...period." They did. Now I see on this board a member who has a 2013 having the same issues.
> 
> Door panel gaps? How about if the damn things won't start or leave you stranded on a freeway? I'll take a gap. BMW used to be the only game in town in many folks opinion. Mine included. No more.
> 
> ...


I like what they have done with M. They now make the cars that suit the needs of people who can afford them.

The problem with these rags is they have no idea what a guy spending a $120k on a sports sedan actually wants.


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## solstice (Aug 1, 2010)

It's frustrating that Caddy have to make their cars so fugly. I mean there are plentiful of design houses around the world who can make truly beautiful designs. Same thing with Lexus. Both companies are making such good progress in driving dynamics but the designs are prohibiting. Just swallow the pride and get some help already.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

2010drive said:


> Like the plastic ones on your BMW? Corvette doors don't open themselves on the freeway so you don't need to worry about "all that flex".


Clearly your eye for detail (or lack thereof) prohibits you from realizing how vastly different grains of plastic can feel from one another. "Plastic is plastic" is an inaccurate frame of mind which has allowed GM to come this far.


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## 760Lifan (Oct 6, 2004)

1973BMW said:


> Cadillac is taking weight off of their cars and tightening up the suspensions while adding horsepower. BMW's are getting bigger, gaining weight and putting nonsense monikers like
> "M Sport" on all their models. I heard a motor journalist say it best "What does the M stand for now with BMW....Marketing."


I don't like this M-labeling either - but to be fair, isn't Cadillac doing the same by introducing a "V-sport" which isn't a "true V", either?


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## day03tls (Apr 9, 2013)

I just think of the name: General Motors.

Eeeeekkk


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## ausdude (Dec 15, 2012)

day03tls said:


> I just think of the name: General Motors.
> 
> Eeeeekkk


Government Motors


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## jjsC6 (Feb 16, 2008)

760Lifan said:


> I don't like this M-labeling either - but to be fair, isn't Cadillac doing the same by introducing a "V-sport" which isn't a "true V", either?


I disagree. The V-Sport may not have the ZR1 engine, but it does have a much more powerful engine than what has been available in the CTS aside from the V, and it does come with the good suspension. I've had a Corvette with the "magnetic" ride suspension, and it truly is a world class suspension. They have sold the rights to many other companies, including Ferrari.

BMW will put an "M-Sport" on any car now, including a fairly pedestrian 528 and even the diesel.


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## 760Lifan (Oct 6, 2004)

jjsC6 said:


> I disagree. The V-Sport may not have the ZR1 engine, but it does have a much more powerful engine than what has been available in the CTS aside from the V, and it does come with the good suspension.


I still believe they should have chosen a different name. A 550i also has a much more powerful engine than the 535 or 528 but it's still not an M - so these labels should only go onto cars that are real Ms or Vs.

By calling it "V-sport", you could get the idea that this model is even one level above a V which is as misleading as it gets.

In addition to that, BMW is certainly not alone. Look at what Audi is doing with their S-model packages. If you want a fully loaded A6, you are actually forced to buy an S-Line since it's part of the Prestige Package.

At least BMW still gives us a choice to select M- or non M-line.


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## jjsC6 (Feb 16, 2008)

760Lifan said:


> I still believe they should have chosen a different name. A 550i also has a much more powerful engine than the 535 or 528 but it's still not an M - so these labels should only go onto cars that are real Ms or Vs.
> 
> By calling it "V-sport", you could get the idea that this model is even one level above a V which is as misleading as it gets.
> 
> ...


Point taken. I think that M-B actually started the whole thing with the "AMG Appearance Package", and remember the Porche "turbo" fenders on the non-turbo? I don't recall what they called the package, but it might have even been the "turbo appearance package".


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## 760Lifan (Oct 6, 2004)

jjsC6 said:


> Point taken. I think that M-B actually started the whole thing with the "AMG Appearance Package", and remember the Porche "turbo" fenders on the non-turbo? I don't recall what they called the package, but it might have even been the "turbo appearance package".


Yup, somebody started it and was successful. Now, they are all doing it..:rofl:


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## bighorns (Mar 6, 2013)

Works for me. Msport package has some nice features!

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

day03tls said:


> I just think of the name: General Motors.
> 
> Eeeeekkk


To me "General Motors" is exactly like calling it "Standard Motors", or "Basic Motors". Just the most clinically unsexy name and linkage to the products they sell.


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## NoI4plz (May 2, 2012)

It sounds soo "eek"........Priceless. As a side note I wonder if the greats of formula one ever expressed themselves in the same manner. "Michael Schumacher driving was soo "eek" 

I think if the vsport can out handle the BMW, I think BMW needs to step out of their comfort zone and address their newfound competitors in the successor to the f10. So far theyve been outgunned by the Japanese (GS) and the Americans (CTS). Next thing u know the Hyundai genesis is out handling them lol.


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## ausdude (Dec 15, 2012)

Uhhhh... Ok....


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

K-A said:


> To me "General Motors" is exactly like calling it "Standard Motors", or "Basic Motors". Just the most clinically unsexy name and linkage to the products they sell.


A lot of names are well, pedestrian, and a lot seem to end in "a" Honda, Lada, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, Trabant (this you gotta watch), Volvo, Fiat. They certainly don't seem to sound like Aston Martin, or Ferrari, or Porsche, Jaguar, or Maserati. Mercedes, is not bad sounding. Audi, is okay I guess. Cadillac and Corvette sound pretty cool to me as well, Cadillac is a french derived name.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

*Quality*

Okay, might as well come clean, it's Canadians that are responsible for some of these cars...


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## Stealth.Pilot (Jul 2, 2009)

I saw this car at the Miami auto show and have to say that the interior feels much richer than the average 535i. It was impressive.


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## Carbon Fiver (Aug 5, 2013)

K-A said:


> To me "General Motors" is exactly like calling it "Standard Motors", or "Basic Motors". Just the most clinically unsexy name and linkage to the products they sell.


But isn't "BMW" exactly the same in German? "German Motor Works"?

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

mness said:


> But isn't "BMW" exactly the same in German? "German Motor Works"?
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Bavarian...it's a lot different...LOL....


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## Needsdecaf (Sep 8, 2006)

mness said:


> But isn't "BMW" exactly the same in German? "German Motor Works"?
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Not seeing your point here.

KA's point was that "General" also means, generic, standard, not specific, etc.

And no, it doesn't mean German Motor Works. It's Bavarian. Bavaria is a state in Germany, it does not refer to the whole country.


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## Needsdecaf (Sep 8, 2006)

Stealth.Pilot said:


> I saw this car at the Miami auto show and have to say that the interior feels much richer than the average 535i. It was impressive.


Intriguing coming from you.

I'll certainly give this car a shot. Hopefully it's a better effort than the last gen CTS and current XTS. I can't even fit in either of those, and it feels like typical crummy GM fare of old.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Needsdecaf said:


> Not seeing your point here.
> 
> KA's point was that "General" also means, generic, standard, not specific, etc.
> 
> And no, it doesn't mean German Motor Works. It's Bavarian. Bavaria is a state in Germany, it does not refer to the whole country.


Interestingly, William Durant, who founded GM never liked Durant Motor Car as a name.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

I also agree with stealth.pilot. At the autoshow, the ATS felt so much more expensive than a comparable 3 series. The only drawback is the Cadillac's CUE system. I will have to check out the SF auto show in a few weeks to see the CTS.


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## Needsdecaf (Sep 8, 2006)

PeterC4 said:


> Interestingly, William Durant, who founded GM never liked Durant Motor Car as a name.


Meh, GM not offensive to me. The only thing I thought was silly was when they tried to "brand" all the cars as GM, regardless of which company made them. Struck me as unnecessary and kind of counterintuitive.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

Needsdecaf said:


> The only thing I thought was silly was when they tried to "brand" all the cars as GM, regardless of which company made them. Struck me as unnecessary and kind of counterintuitive.


I agree, by that logic I could start calling Porsche's VW's!


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

bjayfan said:


> I agree, by that logic I could start calling Porsche's VW's!


Start calling Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini , Bugatti, Bentley, and Ducati's VW too.


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## solstice (Aug 1, 2010)

When I was unloading our skis for the first tuning this year today I was parked next to an Aventador. The owner arrived, fired it up and took off. Mother of God that is quite a VW.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

mness said:


> But isn't "BMW" exactly the same in German? "German Motor Works"?
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Not exactly comparable. As others said, Bavaria, etc. make it more personal, the "BMW" acronym is much more pleasing to the ear than "GM" which is pretty generic and nondescript in itself.



PeterC4 said:


> Interestingly, William Durant, who founded GM never liked Durant Motor Car as a name.


But then it would be called "DMC" which reminds me of the Delorean.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

K-A said:


> Not exactly comparable. As others said, Bavaria, etc. make it more personal, the "BMW" acronym is much more pleasing to the ear than "GM" which is pretty generic and nondescript in itself.
> 
> But then it would be called "DMC" which reminds me of the Delorean.


Or Run-D.M.C.


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## GXAlan (Jul 30, 2013)

K-A said:


> Not exactly comparable. As others said, Bavaria, etc. make it more personal, the "BMW" acronym is much more pleasing to the ear than "GM" which is pretty generic and nondescript in itself.


Come on now! That is just fanboy talk.  it's only pleasing because you're a BMW fan. Does M5 or F10 sound pleasing to the ear? It's no more special than GM.

The CTS VSport is a great car for the money if you're looking for performance. I didn't go for a CTS VSport because I wanted sportiness with comfort. I didn't go for a GS350 FSport because I liked the F10 interior more.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## GXAlan (Jul 30, 2013)

Duplicate.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

GXAlan said:


> Come on now! That is just fanboy talk.  it's only pleasing because you're a BMW fan. Does M5 or F10 sound pleasing to the ear? It's no more special than GM.
> 
> The CTS VSport is a great car for the money if you're looking for performance. I didn't go for a CTS VSport because I wanted sportiness with comfort. I didn't go for a GS350 FSport because I liked the F10 interior more.


Maybe General Motors sounds intriguing to you, but it's the antithesis of that to me.

Bavarian Motor Werks is simply not a German equivalent to the words "General Motors", "Allgemeine Motoren" would be. Sexy, eh? 

And F10 is the coolest code name I've heard for a car. I even started a thread about that. It sounds like a Jet Fighter.


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## NoI4plz (May 2, 2012)

GXAlan said:


> Come on now! That is just fanboy talk.  it's only pleasing because you're a BMW fan. Does M5 or F10 sound pleasing to the ear? It's no more special than GM.
> 
> The CTS VSport is a great car for the money if you're looking for performance. I didn't go for a CTS VSport because I wanted sportiness with comfort. I didn't go for a GS350 FSport because I liked the F10 interior more.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


This is Bimmerfest right? I would only expect BMW on a pedestal here:bigpimp:


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## demas (Apr 17, 2007)

GXAlan said:


> Does M5 or F10 sound pleasing to the ear? ...


yes, they do


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## bighorns (Mar 6, 2013)

I had a CTS-V with aftermarket exhaust blow by my at about 140-150 one time. *That* exhaust note was pleasing! However, _stock_ GT/R's sound pretty damn good too! The old V10 M5's sound sweet, but I have yet to be next to a new one when they are 'on it'!


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## GXAlan (Jul 30, 2013)

K-A said:


> Maybe General Motors sounds intriguing to you, but it's the antithesis of that to me.
> 
> Bavarian Motor Werks is simply not a German equivalent to the words "General Motors", "Allgemeine Motoren" would be. Sexy, eh?
> 
> And F10 is the coolest code name I've heard for a car. I even started a thread about that. It sounds like a Jet Fighter.


Neither BMW or GM sound intriguing from the name alone. 

F10 is a good name, but Alpha isn't bad and Blue Devil is kind of cool too.

I think it'd be cooler if we called our car "Skynight" (which is what the F10 is)

F1 Fury (7 series)
F2 Banshee (7 series LWB)
F3 Havoc or Demon (7 series armored)
F7 Liberator or Sea Dart (5 series GT)
F10 Skynight (5 series sedan!)
F11 Tiger (5 series wagon)
F12 Rainbow (6 cabrio)
F13 Superfortress (6 coupe)
F15 Eagle (X5)
F16 Falcon (X6)
F20 Tigershark (1 series 5 door)
F21 Kfir (1 series 3 door)
F22 Raptor (2 series coupe)
F23 Black Widow (2 series cabrio)
F25 ----- (X3)
F30 ----- (3 sedan)
F31 ----- (3 wagon)
F32 ----- (4 coupe)
F33 ----- (4 cabrio)
F34 ----- (3 GT)
F35 Lightning (4 GC)

Using that criteria, the only cooler codename for a car is the armored 7 series.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Stingray is sounds pretty cool for a GM car. At about 62K with the Z51 package and most options I could certainly live with however that sounds.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

PeterC4 said:


> Stingray is sounds pretty cool for a GM car. At about 62K with the Z51 package and most options I could certainly live with however that sounds.


If I got a Stringray, I'd probably simply say that "I drive a Stingray" because the mental stigma that I have which relates to the name "Corvette" has been tarnished into the depths of un-cool-dome as well.

Another factor about GM VS BMW, and this is also very personal, is how I like to relate the heritage of my favorite brand to the model I drive. For example, I love thinking back to the E34's and E39's that I used to drive in or drive, and relate things that remind me to the F10. Or look at pictures of the BMW lineage and how it's all so masterfully evolved into the F10 aesthetic.

With GM, aside from having the most painfully boring brand name linked to your cars, you have the most painfully big pieces of crap to, as well. Pre-70's there were glorious "General Motors" buzzing around, but from the 70's to pretty much recently, you have a lineage tied to what you drive that's about as impressive as a rusty, jagged piece of old metal ("Chevrolet Citation, anyone? )

Again, that's a personal thing, of course.

And that's PRECISELY why the marketing team named the new Vette the "Stingray". It's no coincidence. The Vette name has been tainted and isn't alluring to either a well-to-do and especially younger generation, and the Stringray is here to fix that. And oh does it look and perform awesomely.

If I can fit in one, headroom wise, then my next car will almost certainly be one.... unless I check it out and the finish, interior, and overall refinement leaves too much to be desired.

A Stingray with Z51 and either LT2 or LT3 (whatever the luxury packages are called) and loaded up pretty well is about comparably priced to an LCI 535i the way I'd want it.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

K-A said:


> And that's PRECISELY why the marketing team named the new Vette the "Stingray". It's no coincidence. The Vette name has been tainted and isn't alluring to either a well-to-do and especially younger generation, and the Stringray is here to fix that.


Check your history.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

K-A said:


> A Stingray with Z51 and either LT2 or LT3 (whatever the luxury packages are called) and loaded up pretty well is about comparably priced to an LCI 535i the way I'd want it.


In Canada a Stingray with the Z51 LT2 package is about $16k less at list than a comparably equipped (as close as that can be) 535. At that price, the LT2 would have heads up display, magnetic ride control, auto and a whole host of things. Basically a Z51 LT2 is the same price as a new 4 series 335 M Sport Coupe...in Canada. At list. It is, without a doubt, very compelling pricing.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

bjayfan said:


> Check your history.


I did, and 50 years ago a "Corvette" had automatic cachet to it. Let's just say the stereotype of what a Vette owner or enthusiast is, isn't the classiest (what is, you can say, but even compared to the BMW d-bag stereotype, I'd think what especially the younger generation equates to "Corvette" is less appealing).

There's a reason they shook things up with tying "Stringray" to it, and it was genius. If this model accomplishes what it probably will, by the time it looks far too hard on the eyes (as very trendy, "current", overstated designs do, especially as you seem them too often), they'll probably release a "classic" style Vette next and simply call it "Corvette" again.

Peter: Indeed, the value on the car is almost obscene for what you get. I can't help but think that if you look closely into one, you'll have to find some of it made by hardened dirt, otherwise it's hard to believe how GM could have built such an incredibly impressive car to such a low price point.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

K-A said:


> Peter: Indeed, the value on the car is almost obscene for what you get. I can't help but think that if you look closely into one, you'll have to find some of it made by hardened dirt, otherwise it's hard to believe how GM could have built such an incredibly impressive car to such a low price point.


I'm going to see if I can find one this weekend at a dealer to get a close look. This car was made to bring enthusiasts into the show room. And I think it will. It is just too good to be true when you price it out on the web. A new Carrera 4S is about double the price. It sure isn't double the value. And, for me at least, I really like the look of it. But I have to see one live again. Only saw it briefly at the auto show last year. It would be nice if GM could do it this time with Cadillac and Corvette. Heck, even the new Impala looks good in pictures.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

I agree. It really seems too good to be true. Even when I LOADED one up I got reverse-sticker-shock (how the F is it so "cheap" for what you apparently get).

I saw one in real life and it was as stunningly exotic as any exotic. I think like the Camaro, the overstated, over-trendy, over-angular design will age as you see it too often and eventually become hard to digest, BUT hopefully I'm wrong. Right now I think it look stunning in that "Holy crap that looks cool as hell" way.

I'm just so hoping that at 6'4 with long torso I fit in it, but apparently it seems as if I won't.  Pisses me off.


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## bluejayfan (Jul 30, 2013)

K-A said:


> I did


So are you being sarcastic or delusional?

Stingray, as well as Sting Ray, has been associated with Corvette for a long time, other times it's been other names, Mako Shark for instance. But they're all Corvette's.


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## Fastpaddler (Sep 29, 2013)

Final note on CTS. Having just read the entire DEC.13 C&D compara of Audi/Cadillac/mb& Bmw I note the following:
While the BMW did end up last in the comparo it actually tied with the winner the Audi A6 in Powertrain:
1/4 mile same
Engine NVH BMW wins
transmission same
Overall Powertrain: Audi/BMW tied each with 51.
It lost out of steering,brakes and handling to whom: THE CTS. Oh dear....
In some areas BMW lost points but it was purely subjective and, C&D seems to pick on 5'ers anyway.

AL


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

bjayfan said:


> So are you being sarcastic or delusional?
> 
> Stingray, as well as Sting Ray, has been associated with Corvette for a long time, other times it's been other names, Mako Shark for instance. But they're all Corvette's.


Of course, I know that, which is exactly what I'm saying. They (re)branded it as a Stingray for marketing purposes first and foremost. This is clearly the "anti-Vette, Vette", from design, to character, to interior, and part of that was subtly rebranding it. What better way than with an undeniably cool name from a Classic specialty model already existing in their heritage portfolio.



Fastpaddler said:


> Final note on CTS. Having just read the entire DEC.13 C&D compara of Audi/Cadillac/mb& Bmw I note the following:
> While the BMW did end up last in the comparo it actually tied with the winner the Audi A6 in Powertrain:
> 1/4 mile same
> Engine NVH BMW wins
> ...


It's funny, reading the C&D article, the 5er won in pretty every objective measure. It put up the best performance figures (even being an extra-bloated 4WD), if I'm not mistaken it put up some of the best lateral G's even WITH horrible Winter Tires that come with the AWD, and without 704 suspension, it was the most quiet in every category, smoothest and snappiest engine and tranny, had some of the best efficiency (would be better as a 2WD), etc.

It seems as if their take on the car "losing" was purely subjective and because they have a beef with BMW and the 5er. Not to mention, I found their description of how it drove in relation to the other cars the furthest from the truth.... part of that may also be because my F10 benchmark is a 704 suspension RWD with SAT.

Being that I base fundamental design, performance and especially luxury as what a Luxury Sedan is all about, even the terribly equipped F10 model they used put up the most alluring capabilities. As I always say, "If C&D or MT picks it last, I'll pick it first."


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

*Shopped American Today...*

So I went to the nearest Cadillac dealer and spent just short of an hour looking at the CTS, ATS, the new Impala for myself.

I took a very good look at the exterior fit and finish and I can tell you the panel gaps and finish were every bit as good as my F10. I didn't have a micrometre with me, but there was nothing out of line or gapped widely. But the interiors really got me. The CTS, is beautiful inside, with more leather on various panels when compared to my BMW. The Impala I looked at (LTZ) was beautifully appointed as well with visible contrasted stitching. I asked if these were "special" in some way, but nope, they can be ordered like that. Everything in all 3 cars was top notch fit and finish wise.

As to the CUE system, I thought it was excellent - I have no idea why some people criticize it. Easy to use, with touch screen icons that make intuitive sense I understood the functions within seconds. Far faster to navigate than iDrive and from what I could hear, a decent sound system. Apparently the ATS has been selling very well and the CTS too. No CTS V yet. I didn't drive one, as I had to go, but I will next time.


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## ahmadddd (Jul 22, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> So I went to the nearest Cadillac dealer and spent just short of an hour looking at the CTS, ATS, the new Impala for myself.
> 
> I took a very good look at the exterior fit and finish and I can tell you the panel gaps and finish were every bit as good as my F10. I didn't have a micrometre with me, but there was nothing out of line or gapped widely. But the interiors really got me. The CTS, is beautiful inside, with more leather on various panels when compared to my BMW. The Impala I looked at (LTZ) was beautifully appointed as well with visible contrasted stitching. I asked if these were "special" in some way, but nope, they can be ordered like that. Everything in all 3 cars was top notch fit and finish wise.
> 
> As to the CUE system, I thought it was excellent - I have no idea why some people criticize it. Easy to use, with touch screen icons that make intuitive sense I understood the functions within seconds. Far faster to navigate than iDrive and from what I could hear, a decent sound system. Apparently the ATS has been selling very well and the CTS too. No CTS V yet. I didn't drive one, as I had to go, but I will next time.


I saw one today at Garden State Plaza Mall.. yes the exterior and Pearl while color is great but the interior is full of stitched acrylic materials!! There is no genuine leather in the car or the door panels except the seats which has a Napa type of leather.

Having plastic materials stitched on the dash and everywhere looks ok but doesn't give the luxury feeling.. the F10 dash with its rubbery material looks much better and higher in class!!

I didn't expect to see such materials in a 60K car, the Lexus GS 350 is cheaper and has silky & smooth genuine leather stitched on the dash, door panels, and armrest!! If GM want to sell this car it should be cheaper than the Lexus.. the F10 is in different category and far more luxurious than the CTS.

Not sure if Cadillac offer genuine leather as a special order, however the car I saw had a $60K MSRP sticker which is the price of a fully loaded Lexus GS 350 AWD with Luxury package and adaptive suspension!!


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## Bill1100 (Aug 28, 2013)

K-A said:


> Maybe General Motors sounds intriguing to you, but it's the antithesis of that to me.
> 
> And F10 is the coolest code name I've heard for a car. I even started a thread about that. It sounds like a Jet Fighter.


Do you know what a 4-4-2 is? Or a Z-28? F10 has no cache whatsoever, since no one but the people on this forum know what it is. I thought I was just buying a 550i and had no idea what a F10 was till I started researching new car ideas.

Everybody knew what a 4-4-2 was. Let us not forget the GTO or any model Corvette (C1 through C7). Those were car names that people got excited about - when's the last time you heard someone other than BMW owners gushing over the idea of owning a F10? F10? What's that? I guess I missed the TV show about the two young guys driving across the country on Route 66 in their F10.

Oh yeah, all the other cars mentioned above were GM cars.:thumbup:


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

Bill1100 said:


> Do you know what a 4-4-2 is? Or a Z-28? F10 has no cache whatsoever, since no one but the people on this forum know what it is. I thought I was just buying a 550i and had no idea what a F10 was till I started researching new car ideas.
> 
> Everybody knew what a 4-4-2 was. Let us not forget the GTO or any model Corvette (C1 through C7). Those were car names that people got excited about - when's the last time you heard someone other than BMW owners gushing over the idea of owning a F10? F10? What's that? I guess I missed the TV show about the two young guys driving across the country on Route 66 in their F10.
> 
> Oh yeah, all the other cars mentioned above were GM cars.:thumbup:


I'm not talking about a social response to the code names. I'm talking about how they sound (much like how "GM" and what it stands for literally sounds like). "F10" as a name in itself is cool as hell. Nobody of an even remotely younger generation these days knows or cares about what a "C7" or 442 means, so if you say "I drive a C7" to someone who doesn't get it, it'll just sound nonsensical. However, "F10" sounds literally like a Jet Fighter. IMO if you were to tell someone "I drive an F10" they'd think you're describing some kind of Jet. For example, the Mercedes E Class internal codename is "W212" which sounds as dorky as it gets.

Also, Z28 isn't an internal codename, it's a performance-model designation. That is more comparable to "M" or "M5", etc.

As for the CTS interior, I'll have to check it out but I feel like I can already see through it on those pictures. Those "squishy" vinyl materials, shiny plastic-chrome around it don't necessarily = high class to me, it looks improved, but I can tell I'll find the typical detail-oriented (or lack thereof) cheeseball factors occurring with it when compared to the Germans. Maybe I'll be wrong, and frankly I'd be happy to be wrong. Stylistically it's too "Cadillac-y" to me, I prefer the more "mature"/minimalist/teutonic design of the F10 interior.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

ahmadddd said:


> I saw one today at Garden State Plaza Mall.. yes the exterior and Pearl while color is great but the interior is full of stitched acrylic materials!! There is no genuine leather in the car or the door panels except the seats which has a Napa type of leather.
> 
> Having plastic materials stitched on the dash and everywhere looks ok but doesn't give the luxury feeling.. the F10 dash with its rubbery material looks much better and higher in class!!
> 
> ...


The F10 doesn't look any better inside in my view and I sat in that CTS for quite a while. There was leather all over the place in the version I sat in. I don't think my car has any more leather in it and the BMW leather doesn't feel as luxurious. You may think BMW's rubbery material looks better but I don't because in Canada at least, they are all black...regardless of the interior and it just looks cheap. I wonder if the stitching on the door in my F10 is real or not. I would have to re-look at both cars. If you look at the door the F10 there is vinyl all over the place and black vinyl to match the dash with plain plastic switches everywhere. If you look at the door switches and buttons on an F10 there are just basic plastic, unless you get some ceramic ones. As to pricing, at least in Canada, by the time you get all the packages to make a Cadillac model comparable a Lexus GS 350 the Lexus comes out more expensive, unless you opt for the Cadillac V sport. Here's a video on that comparison....


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

As long as we are talking about GM cars, has anyone looked at the Chevy SS yet? I couldn't imagine picking a Caddy CTS-V over this car. It looks so much better.









http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Bill1100 said:


> Do you know what a 4-4-2 is? Or a Z-28? F10 has no cache whatsoever, since no one but the people on this forum know what it is. I thought I was just buying a 550i and had no idea what a F10 was till I started researching new car ideas.
> 
> Everybody knew what a 4-4-2 was. Let us not forget the GTO or any model Corvette (C1 through C7). Those were car names that people got excited about - when's the last time you heard someone other than BMW owners gushing over the idea of owning a F10? F10? What's that? I guess I missed the TV show about the two young guys driving across the country on Route 66 in their F10.
> 
> Oh yeah, all the other cars mentioned above were GM cars.:thumbup:


I like name Boss 302. Hemi 'Cuda was one of the coolest .....


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Dunderhi,

As to the Chevy SS (Pontiac G8 lives?), I agree it will be fascinating to see it in the showroom in conjunction with the Impala SS unfortunately not going to be available in Canada. Saw the Impala today. Call me crazy, but it is such an improvement over the model it replaces and beautiful inside. Who know's...they may catch on.


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## Bill1100 (Aug 28, 2013)

K-A said:


> I'm not talking about a social response to the code names. I'm talking about how they sound (much like how "GM" and what it stands for literally sounds like). "F10" as a name in itself is cool as hell. Nobody of an even remotely younger generation these days knows or cares about what a "C7" or 442 means, so if you say "I drive a C7" to someone who doesn't get it, it'll just sound nonsensical. However, "F10" sounds literally like a Jet Fighter. IMO if you were to tell someone "I drive an F10" they'd think you're describing some kind of Jet. For example, the Mercedes E Class internal codename is "W212" which sounds as dorky as it gets.
> 
> Also, Z28 isn't an internal codename, it's a performance-model designation. That is more comparable to "M" or "M5", etc.
> 
> As for the CTS interior, I'll have to check it out but I feel like I can already see through it on those pictures. Those "squishy" vinyl materials, shiny plastic-chrome around it don't necessarily = high class to me, it looks improved, but I can tell I'll find the typical detail-oriented (or lack thereof) cheeseball factors occurring with it when compared to the Germans. Maybe I'll be wrong, and frankly I'd be happy to be wrong. Stylistically it's too "Cadillac-y" to me, I prefer the more "mature"/minimalist/teutonic design of the F10 interior.


Uh, right...


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## ahmadddd (Jul 22, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> The F10 doesn't look any better inside in my view and I sat in that CTS for quite a while. There was leather all over the place in the version I sat in. I don't think my car has any more leather in it and the BMW leather doesn't feel as luxurious. You may think BMW's rubbery material looks better but I don't because in Canada at least, they are all black...regardless of the interior and it just looks cheap. I wonder if the stitching on the door in my F10 is real or not. I would have to re-look at both cars. If you look at the door the F10 there is vinyl all over the place and black vinyl to match the dash with plain plastic switches everywhere. If you look at the door switches and buttons on an F10 there are just basic plastic, unless you get some ceramic ones. As to pricing, at least in Canada, by the time you get all the packages to make a Cadillac model comparable a Lexus GS 350 the Lexus comes out more expensive, unless you opt for the Cadillac V sport. Here's a video on that comparison....


Hey.. thanks for the comment and the video, it doesn't talk about the ride quality, cabin noise level, reliability, comfort..etc.. also its for the CTS V which is much more expensive. It mainly focuses on handling and performance, I don't care much about those things as long as the car handles reasonably well and we all know both cars does.

As for the leather, there is no way the $60K car I saw in the mall has leather in it except the seats! A lot of vinyl pieces with nice tan/beige/mocca/white colors where stitched together on the doors panels and the dashboard, also the piece on top of the cluster didn't seem like leather too (I rubbed it so many times and not convinced, maybe some rough cheap leather.. not sure though).

The interior of the GS 350 is as smooth and real as my $600 leather jacket  There is no way to compare both interiors.. I believe the GS interior is even more luxurious than the F10, as for the F10 the leather you see on the doors is Dakota, only the top is black vinyl and you can order leather dash too if you want.. however the germans know how to make the dash rubbery material look luxurious while for the americans they couldn't master it and it always looked like a cheap plastic and thats why they chose to cover it with stiched vinyl on all of their luxury cars like Buick Lacrosse, Cadillac,..etc

Btw, the vinyl on the XTS is of a better quality an very close to a real leather. definitely Cadillac chose to keep the XTS at the top with better materials.

The pic you see below is for my F10, the interiors are all Cinnamon Dakota, check the doors , Real Wood and Aluminum trim.. Also the F Sport steering wheel is of unmatched Nappa leather quality.. the CTS I saw had a very thin steering wheel and of a cheaper leather quality .. maybe not even leather ..not sure though


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

dunderhi said:


> As long as we are talking about GM cars, has anyone looked at the Chevy SS yet? I couldn't imagine picking a Caddy CTS-V over this car. It looks so much better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I'm not mistaken, that's the same Holden that the G8 was based on, with "Chevy" lipstick on it instead of "Pontiac" lipstick on it. If that's the case, the chassis and layout is relatively dated now and the CTS is probably a much more inherently advanced model. Though, GM typically moves very slowly when it comes to how all-new their new models are (many are based on different existing models that are are variably branded under the GM umbrella), so that's assuming that the CTS is truly "All New", which I think it is.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

ahmadddd said:


> Hey.. thanks for the comment and the video, it doesn't talk about the ride quality, cabin noise level, reliability, comfort..etc.. also its for the CTS V which is much more expensive. It mainly focuses on handling and performance, I don't care much about those things as long as the car handles reasonably well and we all know both cars does.
> 
> As for the leather, there is no way the $60K car I saw in the mall has leather in it except the seats! A lot of vinyl pieces with nice tan/beige/mocca/white colors where stitched together on the doors panels and the dashboard, also the piece on top of the cluster didn't seem like leather too (I rubbed it so many times and not convinced, maybe some rough cheap leather.. not sure though).
> 
> ...


The two cars in the video were $1,000 apart according to the tester. The leather in the CTS sat in was as smooth as a leather jacket as well not like the Dakota leather in my F10. Many cars only have leather seats and maybe the door inlay - are the doors inlays vinyl on the F10?. Full leather or extended leather options in say, a Porsche, will set you back an additional $4k or so. Anyway, I will drive the CTS V sport when available and see what the ride is all about. Early reports are that the car is exceptionally quiet. I'm not worried about reliability. It was nice to see the Cadillac spank that GS around the track.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

The CTS based on sound DB's recorded by C&D was about as quiet as an E Class and A6 at 70 MPH cruise, as quiet as the A6 and quieter than the E Class at idle, and by far the loudest of the group at full throttle. The F10 was pretty significantly quieter than all of the tested cars in all areas (tied as quietest at idle).

The CTS' dash is definitely vinyl, a car of that price range wouldn't have real leather. If it was real leather it would have to be a really cheap strain of it. Even the S Class has vinyl all over the car except for on the seats and steering wheel. I'm also not sure if the CTS uses a Nappa leather steering wheel like some of the F10 wheels do.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

ahmadddd said:


> The pic you see below is for my F10, the interiors are all Cinnamon Dakota, check the doors , Real Wood and Aluminum trim.. Also the F Sport steering wheel is of unmatched Nappa leather quality.. the CTS I saw had a very thin steering wheel and of a cheaper leather quality .. maybe not even leather ..not sure though


Do you have the full black piano finish?


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## ahmadddd (Jul 22, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> Do you have the full black piano finish?


My car pic is in my signature. As for the F10 it comes now with Napa soft leather as a standard option when you pick one of the lines 

The new S class comes with leather all over the place, 7 series already comes with stitched Napa leather everywhere including the doors panels.

Definitely Caddi will beat the GS as its V8 and I don't buy gas guzzler and don't care about the track.

I care about ride quality and comfort, reliability, resale value and lease offers that depend on it  Also the image of the brand and how people look at me when I drive in the streets or go to a 5 star hotel and attend a business meeting or party 
anyway. .good luck with your new purchase


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

ahmadddd said:


> My car pic is in my signature. As for the F10 it comes now with Napa soft leather as a standard option when you pick one of the lines
> 
> The new S class comes with leather all over the place, 7 series already comes with stitched Napa leather everywhere including the doors panels.
> 
> ...


The Cadillac is a V6. So in looking at my F10 today, I don't think there is leather anywhere except the seats, the M steering wheel and the shifter. The doors look like simulated leather when you look closely. Image does sell cars, especially these, that's for sure. That's why it takes a while to develop image. Sometimes good products get overlooked for that reason...but not for long. Good luck at your party.


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## jjsC6 (Feb 16, 2008)

PeterC4 said:


> Dunderhi,
> 
> As to the Chevy SS (Pontiac G8 lives?), I agree it will be fascinating to see it in the showroom in conjunction with the Impala SS unfortunately not going to be available in Canada. Saw the Impala today. Call me crazy, but it is such an improvement over the model it replaces and beautiful inside. Who know's...they may catch on.


I have followed this car much as I did the G8, and all other cars. In typical GM fashion they are coming out with it with seven year old tech. If year two has the new Corvette LT1 instead of the LS3, and the eight speed automatic I will seriously consider it to replace my 550.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

jjsC6 said:


> I have followed this car much as I did the G8, and all other cars. In typical GM fashion they are coming out with it with seven year old tech. If year two has the new Corvette LT1 instead of the LS3, and the eight speed automatic I will seriously consider it to replace my 550.


The new eight speed has seen its way into the CTS V Sport so far. You're right I think it's some parts left over from G8 that will see their way into production - does it even come with Navigation? Mind you, it is priced reasonably. If the car can make it past a few years and catches on, there's an opportunity to upgrade the parts bin. I hope it does.


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## jjsC6 (Feb 16, 2008)

PeterC4 said:


> The new eight speed has seen its way into the CTS V Sport so far. You're right I think it's some parts left over from G8 that will see their way into production - does it even come with Navigation? Mind you, it is priced reasonably. If the car can make it past a few years and catches on, there's an opportunity to upgrade the parts bin. I hope it does.


The car is actually very well equipped as standard. It's a lot of car for the money. But gas mileage sucks.


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## Stealth.Pilot (Jul 2, 2009)

The GS is junk. It's ugly like the Pontiac Aztek was ugly.

Lexus have an 8 year old engine and are just starting turbo unit development with release 3 years from now.

They have fallen behind the industry because Toyota for a long time chose not to invest in Lexus.

While I like the promise of the Lexus brand, and have a 2009 GS460 in my stable, I would not touch a Lexus for the next few years until they catch up. Cadillac is the relevant attacker now. If you want more bang for your buck then go with Cadillac.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## jjsC6 (Feb 16, 2008)

Stealth.Pilot said:


> The GS is junk. It's ugly like the Pontiac Aztek was ugly.
> 
> Lexus have an 8 year old engine and are just starting turbo unit development with release 3 years from now.
> 
> ...


The new GS has actually gotten very good reviews, and despite it's eight year old engine, it is still as fast as a 535. In fact, it is now considered more of a sport sedan than a five series by some comparison tests. Beauty is subjective, so no need to debate that. Quality is better than a BMW by most accounts.

As far as bang for the buck on the Cadillac, the jury is out. Price wise it seems to be in line with the Lexus and Audi, cheaper than the BMW (all comparably equipped). Resale value is a serious crap shoot.

BTW, I fell for the hype when the 2008 CTS came out and leased a loaded non-V. I was very disappointed in the car.


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

PeterC4 said:


> Dunderhi,
> 
> As to the Chevy SS (Pontiac G8 lives?), I agree it will be fascinating to see it in the showroom in conjunction with the Impala SS unfortunately not going to be available in Canada. Saw the Impala today. Call me crazy, but it is such an improvement over the model it replaces and beautiful inside. Who know's...they may catch on.


I visited a Chevy dealer this summer to look at trucks and I checked out an Impala. I was impressed the overall look of the car. It's been a long time since I even looked at a Chevy.



K-A said:


> If I'm not mistaken, that's the same Holden that the G8 was based on, with "Chevy" lipstick on it instead of "Pontiac" lipstick on it. If that's the case, the chassis and layout is relatively dated now and the CTS is probably a much more inherently advanced model. Though, GM typically moves very slowly when it comes to how all-new their new models are (many are based on different existing models that are are variably branded under the GM umbrella), so that's assuming that the CTS is truly "All New", which I think it is.


Actually the new Chevy SS is the "LCI" version of the Commodore SS which was released this year. The interior is night and day compared to the G8 and to me, looks on par with the Caddy.

G8









SS









CTS


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## jjsC6 (Feb 16, 2008)

That is not the new CTS dash btw.


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

jjsC6 said:


> That is not the new CTS dash btw.


Ah... GM quality strikes again. I linked the picture from the 2014 CTS-V gallery at Cadillac.com.

http://www.cadillac.com/cts-v-luxury-sedan/interior-photos.html

So the 2014 CTS interior looks more like the Chevy than the 2013?


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

ahmadddd said:


> My car pic is in my signature. As for the F10 it comes now with Napa soft leather as a standard option when you pick one of the lines
> 
> The new S class comes with leather all over the place, 7 series already comes with stitched Napa leather everywhere including the doors panels.
> 
> ...


Actually, the new S Class DOES NOT come with leather everywhere. S's USED to come with standard Nappa seats and Nappa on the door trim, but the new S in Standard trim doesn't even come with Nappa seats (which you get for free in the LCI F10)! All the "leather" across the dash and doors on the new S are vinyl. If you get the first "upper" package for the interior, you get Nappa seats but everything else on the dash and doors is still vinyl. You have to get the uber expensive "upper upper" interior package to get Nappa everywhere.

I agree with you about brand. Brand is important to me when it comes to areas I care about or are an enthusiast of, not because of how people see me necessarily, however that does play out as a by-product. It's because a strong brand is usually built off of strong products and an innovative and precise outlook, which is how enthusiasts are born (appreciating the lineage that led to your product, appreciating the "richness" created by all of that, etc.). Sometimes you can *identify* with a brand therefore the brand is identified within you. If anyone has ever created a brand for themselves, IMO they can appreciate what it means to have gone through the motions of building a strong cachet and why it feels satisfying when your quality and historically sought values are upheld by a brand i.e when the brand "speaks to you", thus you can "identify" with it. I just don't identify with "Cadillac", my parents didn't, my idea of "quality" didn't, etc. That doesn't mean I'd never buy a Cadillac (I'd love one as a second car but as my "passion" car they'd admittedly have to do some magic to undo past misdeeds for me to consider them over BMW/Mercedes), it just means they have a lot of re-branding work to do.



jjsC6 said:


> The new GS has actually gotten very good reviews, and despite it's eight year old engine, it is still as fast as a 535. In fact, it is now considered more of a sport sedan than a five series by some comparison tests. Beauty is subjective, so no need to debate that. Quality is better than a BMW by most accounts.
> 
> As far as bang for the buck on the Cadillac, the jury is out. Price wise it seems to be in line with the Lexus and Audi, cheaper than the BMW (all comparably equipped). Resale value is a serious crap shoot.
> 
> BTW, I fell for the hype when the 2008 CTS came out and leased a loaded non-V. I was very disappointed in the car.


IMO, looks are subjective, but design quality isn't so much. The new GS just has lackluster design quality. If you put an F10 and GS next to each other, it's clear which design was perfected, obsessed over, _invested-in_, etc. more-so, and of course, executed by a more talented group of individuals.



dunderhi said:


> Ah... GM quality strikes again. I linked the picture from the 2014 CTS-V gallery at Cadillac.com.
> 
> http://www.cadillac.com/cts-v-luxury-sedan/interior-photos.html
> 
> So the 2014 CTS interior looks more like the Chevy than the 2013?


I know it appears to be a huge improvement, but when I see that interior I see "GM layout with Caddy bling" all over it and it just doesn't compare to the inherent designs of the F10, A6 or perhaps even E Class. It looks good in its own right, I'll have to feel around for myself to see if it's shaken that "cheap GM details-feel", but it isn't really my thing.


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

K-A said:


> Actually, the new S Class DOES NOT come with leather everywhere. S's USED to come with standard Nappa seats and Nappa on the door trim, but the new S in Standard trim doesn't even come with Nappa seats (which you get for free in the LCI F10)! All the "leather" across the dash and doors on the new S are vinyl. If you get the first "upper" package for the interior, you get Nappa seats but everything else on the dash and doors is still vinyl. You have to get the uber expensive "upper upper" interior package to get Nappa everywhere.


The "free" Nappa leather is part of the $2,000+ line packages. Nappa leather isn't available on a non-line 528 for which vinyl is the standard interior trim and Dakota is a $1,450 upgrade.

So on the F10 we have vinyl, then Dakota, then Nappa, then extended leather, then full leather, and then Individual. Assuming the latter options become available.

The S Class, BTW, has leather, then Nappa, then exclusive (full) Nappa, and then designo.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

dunderhi said:


> The "free" Nappa leather is part of the $2,000+ line packages. Nappa leather isn't available on a non-line 528 for which vinyl is the standard interior trim and Dakota is a $1,450 upgrade.
> 
> So on the F10 we have vinyl, then Dakota, then Nappa, then extended leather, then full leather, and then Individual. Assuming the latter options become available.
> 
> The S Class, BTW, has leather, then Nappa, then exclusive (full) Nappa, and then designo.


Yeah, however it's ridiculous for a $100K+ car to not even have Nappa as the standard leather. I was shocked when I heard that. My '01 S500 had standard Nappa. Not to mention, the new S has ALL vinyl surfaces everywhere you touch, aside from the seats and steering wheel, unless you get the Exclusive Full Nappa, which is costly. I loved the S interior and I don't mind quality vinyl surfaces along dash, etc. personally, but it's a cost cutting move on M-B's part as before you had less standard vinyl and more standard leather.


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## jjsC6 (Feb 16, 2008)

K-A said:


> Actually, the new S Class DOES NOT come with leather everywhere. S's USED to come with standard Nappa seats and Nappa on the door trim, but the new S in Standard trim doesn't even come with Nappa seats (which you get for free in the LCI F10)! All the "leather" across the dash and doors on the new S are vinyl. If you get the first "upper" package for the interior, you get Nappa seats but everything else on the dash and doors is still vinyl. You have to get the uber expensive "upper upper" interior package to get Nappa everywhere.
> 
> I agree with you about brand. Brand is important to me when it comes to areas I care about or are an enthusiast of, not because of how people see me necessarily, however that does play out as a by-product. It's because a strong brand is usually built off of strong products and an innovative and precise outlook, which is how enthusiasts are born (appreciating the lineage that led to your product, appreciating the "richness" created by all of that, etc.). Sometimes you can *identify* with a brand therefore the brand is identified within you. If anyone has ever created a brand for themselves, IMO they can appreciate what it means to have gone through the motions of building a strong cachet and why it feels satisfying when your quality and historically sought values are upheld by a brand i.e when the brand "speaks to you", thus you can "identify" with it. I just don't identify with "Cadillac", my parents didn't, my idea of "quality" didn't, etc. That doesn't mean I'd never buy a Cadillac (I'd love one as a second car but as my "passion" car they'd admittedly have to do some magic to undo past misdeeds for me to consider them over BMW/Mercedes), it just means they have a lot of re-branding work to do.
> 
> ...


You had me right up until the A6 interior comment. I think it is worst in class - no contest...dead last. The A8 is much better.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

jjsC6 said:


> You had me right up until the A6 interior comment. I think it is worst in class - no contest...dead last. The A8 is much better.


I agree that it's far worse than the F10's interior. So much hard, chintzy plastic on it, that nasty popup screen, no stitching, etc. It also lacks the solid feel of the F10 and E Class interiors. That said, I think it's (A6) a close call with the E interior, though I might actually rate the E's higher than the A6's.... the A6 just doesn't feel "expensive" from inside, IMO.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

K-A said:


> .
> 
> I know it appears to be a huge improvement, but when I see that interior I see "GM layout with Caddy bling" all over it and it just doesn't compare to the inherent designs of the F10, A6 or perhaps even E Class. It looks good in its own right, I'll have to feel around for myself to see if it's shaken that "cheap GM details-feel", but it isn't really my thing.


I like this bling. It is a little different with nice co-ordination. I sat in the car for a while. The controls feel nice and not cheap at all.


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

ahmadddd said:


> There is no plastic in my F10 all Dakota leather, the only vinyl is the upper side of the door which comes in black the rest is all Dakota and now in 2014 it comes in Napa... You love the CTS that fine.. but dont claim that the F10 is all Vinyl!!!!!! For me the Caddi looked very cheap from inside with cheap plastic smell.. they offered me $50 to do test drive


It may be the F10 is different in Canada, the bottom half of the doors in my F10 are black plastic, or maybe hard vinyl, not sure. The inlay behind the door handle is black plastic too. I believe the actual door has vinyl not leather. The only other option that was available to me was Napa leather as I recall. The inlay where you grab the door is plastic or actually feels like rubber. All the switches are plastic. Again, it may be that the Canadian cars are different. For models newer than 2012, there may be more choice so maybe you get more leather options.


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## TJPark01 (Oct 30, 2009)

I like the CTS-V Sport a lot, I think GM has been on a real roll, especially the Cadillac division, really distancing themselves from other domestics. However, after reading Insideline's long term of the ATS, I would be inclined to wait a while until they iron out some interior issues. I know this is not specific to Cadillac but some of these things on interior issues on the ATS were just appalling. The whole blog is here if you wanna read it.
2013 Cadillac ATS Long-Term Road Test

*Dash trim Yikes:
*









*Driver Seat Rubbing Center Console:
*









*Squeaky Door:
*http://youtu.be/zPz8XWOyJHA

*Buggy CUE system:
*http://youtu.be/DLkE4qBnI1Y


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## Bmwlvr60 (Oct 28, 2012)

Shocking that cars put together by the United Auto Workers union have, squeaks, rattles, and misaligned parts.


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## ahmadddd (Jul 22, 2013)

tjpark01 said:


> i like the cts-v sport a lot, i think gm has been on a real roll, especially the cadillac division, really distancing themselves from other domestics. However, after reading insideline's long term of the ats, i would be inclined to wait a while until they iron out some interior issues. I know this is not specific to cadillac but some of these things on interior issues on the ats were just appalling. The whole blog is here if you wanna read it.
> 2013 cadillac ats long-term road test
> 
> *dash trim yikes:
> ...


lol


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## Fastpaddler (Sep 29, 2013)

PeterC4 said:


> Dude, save yourself the brain damage. Vinyl is a durable synthetic material. Leather shows wear over time. Vinyl is ....VINYL.


Ignoring the "brain damage" comment. Are you also a Mensa member--my point is absolutely legitimate. A FULL GRAIN leather should not be deteriorating at the rate I have experienced. Connolly leather, for example, is supple and extremely durable. Napa is good really but Dakota leather is a TOP GRAIN leather. That is partly where(wear) the problem lies. I agree that leather"shows wear over time", but I dont think that refers to wear through. Most full grain leather may look a bit krinkley or even stretch but not wear the way I have described. I Do agree that BMWs have a lot of non-leather facings on their seats but, generally, the interior materials quality overall is pretty decent. I have, as a life-time traveller always loved the Jaguar interiors but even they are showing signs of cheapiness. Don' t you agree with me on this?

AL'
and greetings


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## PeterC4 (Mar 19, 2011)

Fastpaddler said:


> Ignoring the "brain damage" comment. Are you also a Mensa member--my point is absolutely legitimate. A FULL GRAIN leather should not be deteriorating at the rate I have experienced. Connolly leather, for example, is supple and extremely durable. Napa is good really but Dakota leather is a TOP GRAIN leather. That is partly where(wear) the problem lies. I agree that leather"shows wear over time", but I dont think that refers to wear through. Most full grain leather may look a bit krinkley or even stretch but not wear the way I have described. I Do agree that BMWs have a lot of non-leather facings on their seats but, generally, the interior materials quality overall is pretty decent. I have, as a life-time traveller always loved the Jaguar interiors but even they are showing signs of cheapiness. Don' t you agree with me on this?
> 
> AL'
> and greetings


I think BMW interiors are decent. But when I take a close look at my F10 I see a lot of synthetic material and that is not different from other cars with high-end trim levels whether they are American or Japanese. What I like is things like the wide Navi screen in my F10, the comfort seats; that kind of stuff. I don't have an F10 with a full leather dash or full leather doors etc.


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## Fastpaddler (Sep 29, 2013)

I would agree, for the most part. The OP question about the Cadillac is hard to answer definitively just yet. I think we need to wait another year and see how Cadillac upgrades the new model, much like the F10 has been upgraded ie the 3 modes for the transmission which my first year model does not have. It made the 2012 F10 seem faster with it's first 4 cylinder turbo versus the 6 but they are not dissimilar in performance. The 5 series, all models has better grade interior materials than the 3 series although there is of course some comparatives inside. The Dakota leather, which is top grain, as I have mentioned, is tough looking but not as lovable as the Nappa. As noted by others, not all plastic is of the same family dna. THe BMW plastics are quality products, the dash feels user-friendly and I like the aluminum(?) surrounds in the dash area and around the wood trim. I do think Audi does a better job with their wood trim and some other bits and pieces but I am not unhappy with my lower-end 528i(but, as you know, upper price compared to the US). Cheers from snowless VCI

AL


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

TJPark01 said:


> I like the CTS-V Sport a lot, I think GM has been on a real roll, especially the Cadillac division, really distancing themselves from other domestics. However, after reading Insideline's long term of the ATS, I would be inclined to wait a while until they iron out some interior issues. I know this is not specific to Cadillac but some of these things on interior issues on the ATS were just appalling. The whole blog is here if you wanna read it.
> 2013 Cadillac ATS Long-Term Road Test
> 
> *Dash trim Yikes:
> ...


Good ole' GM quality.



PeterC4 said:


> I think BMW interiors are decent. But when I take a close look at my F10 I see a lot of synthetic material and that is not different from other cars with high-end trim levels whether they are American or Japanese. What I like is things like the wide Navi screen in my F10, the comfort seats; that kind of stuff. I don't have an F10 with a full leather dash or full leather doors etc.


Plastics aren't an issue. I'm very sensitive to plastic quality and find the plastics in the F10 to be far and above the "average" or even competitive-class car. You can tell the selection of interior materials was well thought out and everything feels substantial and refined, IMO.


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

Got a good look and feel around the CTS. Firstly, I wasn't to fond of the ATS interior, not bad but far from great.

The CTS interior was very promising, however as expected, some typical things held it back from being competitive with the tops of its class. The overhead dome light unit uses that Fischer-Price cheap plastic, unattractively styled dome light unit which is shared along the line of basic GM's, the lower-center area with the A/C touch controls is VERY flimsy (same flimsy unit in the XTS), like when you "press" on it, it loosely moves and flexes. Other than that, material quality was very fine for a car of its price, but certain details and the overall design (standard GM fare with more glitz) keeps it a tad under the Euro competitors to me, maybe ahead of the E Class, but I think overall even the E Class interior has more attention to detail and overall solidity to it. Also, the steering wheel had a cheaper form of leather than the matte Nappa you find in the F10 M wheel.

Oh, sat in the Corvette.... better interior than before, but still felt cheap to me, and has a long way to go. Still, for a car that looks and performs like that, priced so "low", you can't really expect a high quality interior, i.e they have to make ends meet somewhere.


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## kk22 (Feb 13, 2013)

K-A said:


> Got a good look and feel around the CTS. Firstly, I wasn't to fond of the ATS interior, not bad but far from great.
> 
> The CTS interior was very promising, however as expected, some typical things held it back from being competitive with the tops of its class. The overhead dome light unit uses that Fischer-Price cheap plastic, unattractively styled dome light unit which is shared along the line of basic GM's, the lower-center area with the A/C touch controls is VERY flimsy (same flimsy unit in the XTS), like when you "press" on it, it loosely moves and flexes. Other than that, material quality was very fine for a car of its price, but certain details and the overall design (standard GM fare with more glitz) keeps it a tad under the Euro competitors to me, maybe ahead of the E Class, but I think overall even the E Class interior has more attention to detail and overall solidity to it. Also, the steering wheel had a cheaper form of leather than the matte Nappa you find in the F10 M wheel.
> 
> Oh, sat in the Corvette.... better interior than before, but still felt cheap to me, and has a long way to go. Still, for a car that looks and performs like that, priced so "low", you can't really expect a high quality interior, i.e they have to make ends meet somewhere.


Isn't it amazing that companies spend billions in R&D and its usually something like a $20 switch that lets them down ultimately in the luxury segment? I had similar feelings about the plastics on the steering wheel on the Lexus GS and the rear dome light switch. Shame, it ruins an otherwise upscale interior. Companies need to realize that even though car magazines are racing these things on the track, most buyers are not gonna pull the trigger if they won't put the same kind of materials in their living room.


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## Stealth.Pilot (Jul 2, 2009)

kk22 said:


> Isn't it amazing that companies spend billions in R&D and its usually something like a $20 switch that lets them down ultimately in the luxury segment? I had similar feelings about the plastics on the steering wheel on the Lexus GS and the rear dome light switch. Shame, it ruins an otherwise upscale interior. Companies need to realize that even though car magazines are racing these things on the track, most buyers are not gonna pull the trigger if they won't put the same kind of materials in their living room.


The worst example of this is the turn signal stalk on the Porsche Panamera Turbo. Feels like it belongs in a VW Polo.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Keepittrill (Jun 5, 2013)

Stealth.Pilot said:


> The worst example of this is the turn signal stalk on the Porsche Panamera Turbo. Feels like it belongs in a VW Polo.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Isn't the Panny turbo a 150k+ car?

I hate when automakers cheap out on materials with such high end vehicles.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Stealth.Pilot (Jul 2, 2009)

Keepittrill said:


> Isn't the Panny turbo a 150k+ car?
> 
> I hate when automakers cheap out on materials with such high end vehicles.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Yep. There are a few disconnects like that on the panny.

Another one is that there are two steering wheels. One with shifter buttons but no paddles which also has audio/phone buttons. And one with proper shifter paddles but no audio/phone buttons. It's also odd to me that the paddle shift wheel is optional and most Panny Turbos don't have it!

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## K-A (Nov 12, 2010)

kk22 said:


> Isn't it amazing that companies spend billions in R&D and its usually something like a $20 switch that lets them down ultimately in the luxury segment? I had similar feelings about the plastics on the steering wheel on the Lexus GS and the rear dome light switch. Shame, it ruins an otherwise upscale interior. Companies need to realize that even though car magazines are racing these things on the track, most buyers are not gonna pull the trigger if they won't put the same kind of materials in their living room.


Totally agreed. They need to realize that it's the inherent detail quality which tells you just how far they went in the underlying engineering quality of the car. The smallest of buttons can tell a big story.

Don't even get me started on the HORRID gear shifter, buttons and light switch on the new Maserati Chrysler's, which are straight out of $15K Chrysler's and honestly feel cheapest even in those segments.


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## smooth0033 (Mar 22, 2013)

Hey fellas, just found this thread, it was actually posted on the CTS forum and i clicked over, was pleased to read some of your opinions. I own a pretty nicely modded E60 and a nicely modded Lexus GS4 but rite now my DD is my fully loaded CTS v sport it's my baby. Fast, comfy and sexy. I enjoy the drive very much and interior is hands down one of the best i've owned in any of my cars.


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## MOCKBA (Nov 1, 2013)

It is really interesting opinion. I visited Cadillac dealer 4 months ago and tried to sit in all models and I found interior really bland, not appealing, and not functional, so I removed Cadiallc completely from my shopping list.


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## smooth0033 (Mar 22, 2013)

Was it a premium model, was it a V Sport. There's a difference between base and premium, as with any luxury models, the TFT gauges and being able to select between performance and other options is pretty cool. I test drove a few other cars before purchasing it, and just found that for fun and for the $ it was an easy choice, the TT and the acceleration is hard to match. Cadillac is not for everyone i'm no fanatic, I like all cars, every make has their reasons to purchase, be nice to mix and match like a fantasy league and get all the beast features from every make and make a super model. lol


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## Justin T (Oct 10, 2006)

MOCKBA said:


> It is really interesting opinion. I visited Cadillac dealer 4 months ago and tried to sit in all models and I found interior really bland, not appealing, and not functional, so I removed Cadiallc completely from my shopping list.


Same here. Like the way they look on the outside, like the mag numbers they put out, but took one look inside and moved on. Just seemed very blah; not a huge fan of the shiny black plastic and there is a ton of it.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

I test drove a couple of Cadillac performance models a while back. I thought they were fine cars although I spent my money on a BMW. What I found most impressive were the magnetic shocks. BMW should license that technology like Ferrari did.


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