# My Weekend Trip to the Dealership & BMW's Pathetic & Pricey Premium Package!?



## delmarco (Jan 2, 2009)

So my girlfriend is about to buy a new car with a budget of about $40,000 and she is deciding between the Mercedes C300 Sport Premium 4matic and the BMW 335xi. She is also considering an Acura, Lexus RX, and I told her to put the Audi a4 quattro on her list.

Her main criteria is for a red car with all wheel or front wheel drive (for the awful ice/snow weather we get here in the hills), and navigation package.

This weekend we went to a few local dealerships in Westchester and Manhattan and using the "Building Your Car" concept that all dealships now do for you we built several cars to see what would give us more car for a better value. The story quickly gets interesting...

We went first to the Mercedes dealership, since it is her first choice (her father drives a 2008 S550 AMG and she grew up in the back seat of all his previous Mercedes S classes). There we quickly and effortlessly got a fully decked out C300 for about $44,000. The C300starts at $36,200 and you get two Premium Packages (Sirius, Heated/Power seats, AutoDim/Compass mirrors, Rain Sensor, Garage Door, Xenon, 60/40 Folding Rear Seats, Cornering Fogs, Headlight Washers and Power rear Sunshade) all added on for $3,500. Auto Transmission & Metallic Red Paint was free and we added on Complete Navigation UMI (iPod, MP3/6 CD Changer, HK Logic 7 Sound) for $2,980 and Panorama Sunroof for $1,050 bringing the complete total to *$44,605*. We also priced the C350 (which is the line right before the AMG) with the same specs and the total price for the C350 was *$45,255*.

At BMW was another story. The 335xi starts at $42,300 and 328xi at $35,600. Granted the C300 is closely comparable to the 328xi in terms of power and performance so we started to price that model out but realized that the 328xi didn't come with anything at all (Power seats, Paint, Auto, Xenon and Fog lamps all add about $5500, plus the Premium packages and options on the 328xi cost about $1000 more per item) So we decided to splurge and see where the 335xi would take us.

Crimson Red Non-Metallic paint was free (The other Metallic Dark Red is $550, luckily she prefered the free non-metallic red). She doesn't care for leather seats, but the $2,650 Premium package adds on the leather for free with BMW Bluetooth Assist and ONLY adds a digital compass to the auto dimming mirror, a garage opener, and lumbar support. Incredibly, you get nothing else. 
In 2009 when a lowly Saturn Ion can offer a premium package with Sat Radio, MP3, Nav and more, according to BMW a "Premium" Package is a garage opener, a digital compass and lumbar support _(all of which by the way I already have in my 2001 330i and none of which I use or realize I have in my car. The 4-way lumbar support is a crock of ish-I tried to use it but it makes no sense to me at all. Also, like 70% of all drivers on the planet I don't have a garage door to open and I assume if I did an automatic garage opener wouldn't be on a $2,650 list of luxury items when I can buy a clip on one at the local mall for $14.99. A digital compass on the mirror!? Yeah right! Well I'm really glad that long ago someone invented roads and street signs and maps and GPS units or else I would really need the luxury of a $2,650 compass to guide me safely thru my daily commute along these African Safari trails in New York. Said and done, you can buy a clip on digi-compass at AutoZone for $1.99 by the cash register. Premium also adds leather and full power seats which is standard everywhere else on luxury cars)_

Moving on, so we added the premium package because if we didn't we couldn't get other things on the Options list. We didn't opt for the heated seats package since it added $1,000(this was included in the C300 Premium package).

The Options is basically a bunch of things that normally comes with a package but for some reason BMW splits them all up and charges you about $500 to $2400 for each of them. We were trying to get everything the C300 came with and started adding options;
Xenon lamps at $900, Comfort access key $500, Navigation (just Nav alone-nothing else) $2,100, Power rear sunshade $575, Fold down rear seats at $475, Logic 7 Sound at $875, Sat Radio 1-Yr Subscription, $595, Sirius Sat Radio $645, Steptronic Tranny $1375, Park Distance Control $750, and that set the price at around $55,000 until the dealer realized he billed us twice for Sat radio and Xenons are no-cost on the 335xi.

The price settled at $53,000, which also happens to be the base price of a BMW 535i or Mercedes E Class. We realized we could do without the PDC and Logic 7 Sound, options that came free with the C300 Premium package, so the final price of the 335xi came up to *$49,595*.

We then priced the 328xi with the same options (for some secret BMW reason, the same Premium Package now cost $3,350 on the 328xi instead of $2,650) and got *$46,245*.

Even the BMW Sales guy was confused at some of the package options and didn't seem confident as to what he was selling. I tried to help out by explaining the quality of the packages to my gfriend, but it was clear as day to a brain dead monkey that the BMW 335xi options/packages offered far less than what the competition was giving. I was so freaking embarrased to bring my gfriend to the BMW dealership, explaining to her during the drive over there why BMWs are better, and have us waste half a day there just to realize what a crock of ish buying a new BMW would be. The dealer's last ditch resort to get a sale out of us was to try to get her to lease the car for something like $5000 down/$599 a month on perfect credit. Yeah right.

After that fiasco we went over to Audi which was literally the next door down. The A4 starts at $31,000 with absolutely nothing. The 3.2 Engine/Quattro/Tiptronic/Pretige package starts at $43,000 and that is already with everything the C300 and 335xi comes with. Adding 19 inch sport rims and Navigation w/ Rear Camera brings it up to *$46,250*.

Audi also gave you the option of choosing your own tires and was the only maker that included Active AntiTheft Alarm already. Also the Audi dealership was very clear and certain of what was in the packages and what he was selling. Also the A4 in itself is priced so that there is a visible limit on how much the final price. Meaning the car we pakcaged was literally top of the line and could not possibly be anymore expensive unless we choose the S line model of the A4.

Said and done, I'm not turned off from BMWs and I will never buy a Mercedes or Audi over a BMW but I cannot say the same for my gfriend or the other 90% of luxury car shoppers out there that aren't BMW enthusiast. She was so turned off by what went on at BMW, that her old 2008 Honda Accord was looking better to her than that BMW 335xi. At the end of the day, she realized the best option was to get the C300 over the other cars. IMO I felt that BMW lost a good customer today because their new car sale dealers don't know ish about the cars they are selling and BMW as a company makes building and pricing a new car a logistics nightmare (Imagine getting charged twice for Sirius Radio and charged $1000 for Xenons when the car already comes with them standard-and it was me who realized the mistake not the dealer).

Also BMW's idea of a Premium Package needs a serious reality check. Not even a brain dead monkey would agree that a few AutoZone trinkets, standard leather and useless 4-way lumbar support comprises and justifies a $2,650/$3,350 luxury package.

Somebody explain that to me...


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## z06bigbird (Aug 25, 2008)

My splanation: The Autozone compass is not lighted like the BMW compass is. LOL


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

So, you knew very little about any of the cars you were going to look at, you're comparing a Merc and a Bimmer that aren't in the same class, you can't figure out the bulk of the Premium package on the 328 is the leather seats, power seats with lumbar support and Bluetooth, which otherwise are individual options, I-Drive/Navigation consists of much more than just navi and you had a bad salesman. And this is BMW the company's fault how?

Tell your gf to enjoy whatever red car she gets. It does sound like she's much more of a Merc person than a Bimmer person. Bimmers are about driving, not frufru.


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## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

The Germans and Japanese simply have different philosophies when it comes to building cars.

The Japanese will build their cars essentially all the same--they will typically have a very short option list, and everything else is a dealership installed accesory. This reduces production complexity and is one of the reasons that their cars are less expensive.

The Germans are big on customization and personalization, which is why they will build a base car, and offer a multitude of options so that the car suits the individual buyer's taste. This is a more expensive and more involved process, but yields a more distinctive product.

The fact that one sales advisor at one store didn't have an adequate level of product knowledge hardly justifies the indictment of an entire brand.

And there is a very simple reason why the premium package costs different on those models--because it includes different things.

If your girlfriend couldn't discern the difference between the cars, then there's no reason why she should pay more and I hope she enjoys her Mercedes.

But there are more than a few people in the world who care about how their car drives, and for them we have BMWs.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

tturedraider said:


> So, you knew very little about any of the cars you were going to look at, you're comparing a Merc and a Bimmer that aren't in the same class, you can't figure out the bulk of the Premium package on the 328 is the leather seats, power seats with lumbar support and Bluetooth, which otherwise are individual options, I-Drive/Navigation consists of much more than just navi and you had a bad salesman. And this is BMW the company's fault how?
> 
> Tell your gf to enjoy whatever red car she gets. It does sound like she's much more of a Merc person than a Bimmer person. Bimmers are about driving, not frufru.


Are you seriously suggesting that the Mercedes C Class and BMW 3 series aren't in the same class? :dunno:


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## Eliot (Jul 30, 2007)

I think she could save more money by getting another Honda. Why would she even consider any performance sedan? Her main criteria is RED color, Navigation and non-RWD.

You don't go into Peter Luger Steakhouse to get a Big Mac.


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## Z4luvr (Jun 23, 2006)

You summed this up in this line. No mention of handling, performance or driving experience. If she doesn't care about these things as much as color, BMW is not for her. BMW charges what they do for extras.....because they can!



> Her main criteria is for a red car with all wheel or front wheel drive (for the awful ice/snow weather we get here in the hills), and navigation package.


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

I used to live in the Greystone.

But I bought a 535i anyway.


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Why would someone with a 2008 Honda be looking at a new car anyway? :dunno:


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

Eliot said:


> I think she could save more money by getting another Honda. Why would she even consider any performance sedan? Her main criteria is RED color, Navigation and non-RWD.
> 
> You don't go into Peter Luger Steakhouse to get a Big Mac.


+1,000 :stupid:


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

If you can't appreciate the finer things in a driving machine and be willing to pay for it, you are definately looking at the wrong brand of cars. :tsk:


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## delmarco (Jan 2, 2009)

Ok. Plenty of colorful response to reply to;

1. I never claim to be an expert on any car. If anything, as a life long consumer, I've become an expert on spending "my" money and know when I'm not getting the best relative value for my money. If it was not for me my gfriend would have went out and bought her Mercedes. I drive a BMW and my father drove BMWs, like her father drove Mercedes so her preference is Mercedes like mine is BMW. That said, she has driven my BMW and like it so it was easy for me to have her consider the 335xi. That is until we walked into the BMW dealership and found out the 10 year old technology that I don't even pay attention to on my 2001 330i is still considered Premium Luxury on a 2009 BMW and cost $3350!

2. She has been leasing her Accord since Summer of '07 her lease is going to be up in a few months. She just got a new job w/ a promotion last October that pays her a lot more money than before so she is ready to get rid out the Accord and "buy" a real luxury performance sedan.

3. Last I checked a BMW 3 series sedan and Mercedes C Class sedan are in the same "small/luxury/performance class" with Audi A4. And iDrive navigation is not exactly the cats pajamas. In fact, I see plenty of iDrive BMWs with Tom Tom Go mounted on the windshield because people don't like using iDrive. At Mercedes the Navagation isn't a single solitary option but part of a Multimedia Package that also includes a myriad of other things including iPod/USB/HD connects, Logic 7 Sound, HD & Sat radio, CD Changer. So by adding that package you know that everything is taken care of. Audi has a similar set up that added Navagation as a single solitary option to the Multimedia package that is "already" included in the Prestige (their version of Premium) Package. 
BMW found it wise to single out every multimedia element into a dozen different options that get confusing and expensive and even the dealer will charge you twice for them if you don't go over your statement carefully.

4. This brings me to the main problem I had with the BMW packages. The main Package has nothing in it that speaks Premium or Luxury or justifies $2650/$3350 when compared to what the C Class Premium Packages (or even a Saturn Ion Premium Packages) would give you for less than that money. And what the sales guy was not telling us; is that *once you apply the $2,650 Premium Package to your 335xi you still have nothing in the car*. To complete the car with sound, satelite radio, PDC, Navigation, Xenons, Fog lamps, Steptronic, Metallic paint, CD Changers, iPod/USB/HD you then have to get them as seperate options that gets confusing and pricey real fast.

A solution would be to have at least two more big "Packages" say a "Technology Package" that would include Nav, Sound, Radio, iPod etc... and a "Driving Package" that would include Xenons, Fogs, PDC, Sunshade, maybe Rims & Tires etc..." or a better solution would be to just include these things in the Premium Package and make the Premium Package a "real" Premium Package.

I'm sure this way it will be cheaper for BMW since the installation of "Packages" can be easily & quickly done on a factory assembly line, instead of a seperate specialty shop, and building the 335xi, or any BMW for that matter, would be more appealing to shoppers also looking at other cars and want to get good stuff for their money.

From the marketing point of view of a serious shopper; Mercedes and Audi easily win out by having everything inclusive in one or two main Packages. It made what we were buying a hell of a lot clearer. It also made the sales guy job a hell of alot easier to explain what comes with what car.

Nobody wants to spend three hours going over line by line items on a Saturday morning at any dealership. And at the end of the experience we find out the 335xi now cost as much as a mid range BMW/Mercedes and that we were about to pay double for Xenon and Sat radio. And we still weren't going to get a much goodies as a cheaper priced fully decked out C350 or Audi A4!

I understand how some shoppers may want specific things and may want to haggle for hours at BMW going over heated seats, and 4 way lumbar buttons, but like someone said this is not a Japanese Honda, but a luxury car that should already be luxury at the time you start to build it.

5. As for appreciating the finer things in a driving machine and going to Peter Luger's for steak and not a BigMac. I would love to think that Peter Luger may look at it's competition time to time and develop realistic strategies for producing better service, better food and making customers feel like they are getting their money's worth for the best product. Not feel like they are getting the rope-a-dope treatment. Imagine looking at a Luger menu and the Premium meal comes with rice, corn, and gravy! And the waiter tells you "oh for the steak you have to add it as an option".



Kamdog said:


> I used to live in the Greystone.
> 
> But I bought a 535i anyway.


I bet you never drove that 535i up Odell Ave or up Executive Blvd after a snow storm! 
When it snows or rains hard my 330i is parked until everything melts and dry out. I've seen too many idiots go off that cliff into the rail trying to be brave in their sports sedan. My gfriend and me think its best to at least have one car between us (we live together) that is competant in the snow/ice.

My next car will be the 535i by the way, but I can only afford mine used or CPO. Also I refuse spend all day adding $3,000 packages and $2,000 options to anything and the very minute I drive it off the dealer's lot the car is only as valuable as it's base.



Z4luvr said:


> You summed this up in this line. No mention of handling, performance or driving experience. If she doesn't care about these things as much as color, BMW is not for her. BMW charges what they do for extras.....because they can!


Man, if all companies can have this motto "we charge you extra...because we can" and turn a profit. 
Then we wouldn't need government bailouts and whatnot now would we. 
I would pay my money for a BMW because I'm a nutty enthusiast like all of you, but today I felt like BMW deserved to lose a paying customer because of their mickey mouse marketing strategies!

You have to be a brain dead, nutless orangutang (or crazy enthusiast like all of us here) to look at at BMW's Premium Package/Options list and then look at what Audi and Mercedes are offering for less and go "duh...okay Mr. BMW where do I hand over my money for this 335xi"


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

I moved 23 years ago.


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## jesimmons (Jan 11, 2008)

Eliot said:


> You don't go into Peter Luger Steakhouse to get a Big Mac.


Damn... Now I'm really hungry.... and not for a Big Mac. There's nothing quite like Peter Luger's. :thumbup:


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## gtxragtop (Feb 25, 2008)

www.vehix.com


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## MrZip (Oct 8, 2006)

What's all the complaining about!! I'm just happy to have cup holders!! The Germans don't like drinking in the car!! I'm driving a 528i as a loaner this weekend and the only extra option on it is heated seats for $500.00. But it's nicely equiped with i drive and a ok sound system. The standard Dakota leather is fine. What's fun is the N52 engine - lots of fun - great performance and perfect handling - Now that's what BMW is all about!! The MSRP is $45,000 not bad for a 5 series.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

swajames said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that the Mercedes C Class and BMW 3 series aren't in the same class? :dunno:


I'm saying a C300 and a 335 aren't in the same performance or price class. That's what was first being compared.



delmarco said:


> So my girlfriend is about to buy a new car with a budget of about $40,000 and she is deciding between the *Mercedes C300 Sport Premium 4matic and the BMW 335xi*.


Couple of my posts from other threads:



tturedraider said:


> M FUNF said:
> 
> 
> > MB and BMW are different cars that appeal to people for different reasons.....
> ...





tturedraider said:


> From my observations BMW drivers tend to want to be more "involved" with their car and their car purchase than Merc drivers. Merc buyers seem to be more of the attitude "make me a good deal, but don't bother me with lots of details, I'll take your word for it", where as BMW buyers seem to have more of an attitude of "I want to understand everything about my car and my car deal." Of course, refering to the more enthusiastic and involved buyers of both brands.


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## photohunts (Oct 16, 2008)

any wise consumer will know about invoice price...and to avoid weekends at the dealership


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

Was talking to a long time semi-aquaintance at a wedding a few months ago. Telling him about my ED with the 535i. Oh, he said, I was going to get that car this time. But when I brought my Mercedes in for service, they had such a great deal on a new lease that I left my car there and took home an E350.

:dunno:

Different mindset.


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## skierbri10 (Nov 9, 2008)

She would have saved on a Euro Delivery and had a great Euro Vacation. Oh well, live and learn.


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## djlfp (Dec 5, 2004)

My take is a little different from yours.

My sense is that the Mercedes options are generally at least 10% more expensive than the BMW equivalents and that is even when the options are bundled into packages. I am hoping that BMW does not continue to move toward the bundling sales strategy. I do not like paying for options that I do not want just for the convenience of checking one box instead of three. Believe it or not, I have been accused of being a bit tight with a dollar.

I also have the impression that BMW dealers are FAR more willing to be flexible with their pricing. I expect to be able to by a comparable BMW model similarly equipped for at least 10% less than a Mercedes. At the same time, I believe that I am getting a superior product and an outstanding value.

Sorry to hear you had a rookie salesman. The lesson regarding gf's/wives that I take away from this is that if you want to be sure they buy BMW's, YOU have to do the selling.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

djlfp said:


> My take is a little different from yours.
> 
> *My sense is that the Mercedes options are generally at least 10% more expensive than the BMW equivalents* and that is even when the options are bundled into packages. I am hoping that BMW does not continue to move toward the bundling sales strategy. I do not like paying for options that I do not want just for the convenience of checking one box instead of three. Believe it or not, I have been accused of being a bit tight with a dollar.
> 
> ...


Mercedes has priced the C Class pretty aggressively. I built a C300 4matic and a 328xi equipped equivalently. The 328xi did indeed come out about $3,300 more than the C300. I still think the 3er is a better car. I couldn't find anywhere where Merc gives a good description of how their all-wheel-drive system works. BMW has a good description of theirs. My sense is BMW's xDrive is superior to Merc's 4matic.


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## djfitter (Sep 12, 2007)

This is another one of those 'BMW must be all things for all people' threads. If that were the case, let's talk how $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that would be. :dunno:
Let her buy the Mercedes, she wouldn't appreciate the difference anyway. 

dj


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## flowbmw (Aug 31, 2006)

how much is that Mercedes maintenance for the first 4 years/ 50,000 miles?

Ed


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

flowbmw said:


> how much is that Mercedes maintenance for the first 4 years/ 50,000 miles?
> 
> Ed


Ed,

On average, what gets done to a bimmer over the 4yr/50k miles? Do most of them get a brake job all the way around?


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## flowbmw (Aug 31, 2006)

tturedraider said:


> Ed,
> 
> On average, what gets done to a bimmer over the 4yr/50k miles? Do most of them get a brake job all the way around?


It depends, I guess on how you drive. At a minimum, you're looking at 4 oil changes, wiper blades, a brake fluid flush, probably some air filters and/ or cabin filters, and probably a set of front brakes/ rotors.

If it was my car, you could add a set of rear pads/ rotors, a clutch, and who knows what else to the list.



Ed


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## djlfp (Dec 5, 2004)

tturedraider said:


> Mercedes has priced the C Class pretty aggressively. I built a C300 4matic and a 328xi equipped equivalently.


Thanks for the correction. I admit that my conclusions are based on old info at the other end of the model line. Do you have any comment on the willingness of Mercedes dealers to generally sell for less than MSRP?


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## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

> I see plenty of iDrive BMWs with Tom Tom Go mounted on the windshield because people don't like using iDrive


:liar:



> Audi has a similar set up that added Navagation as a single solitary option to the Multimedia package that is "already" included in the Prestige (their version of Premium) Package.


Audi Prestige package not included navigation, It's a $2,326 option (BMW - $1900)
So, it's OK to pay $3.119 for better radio, 18" tires, CA and Line change Assistant, but not for BMW Premium pkg. BTW, a lot of drivers here skip this package and survive.

*AUDI Prestige Package $3,119:*

***8226;Wheels: 18 in. 5-Spoke Alloy .***8226; GmbH..***8226;Tires: 18 in. All Season .***8226;Audi Rear Parking System .***8226;Advanced Key Keyless Start/Stop .***8226;Radio: Bang & Olufsen Premium Sound System .***8226;Audi Side Assist Lane Change Assistant

*AUDI Navigation Package w/Rear Backup Camera $ 2,326 :*

***8226;Color Driver Information System .***8226;Includes DVD-based Audi navigation system and voice control..


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## robdokwon (Oct 28, 2007)

Delmarco:

It took almost half my lunch hour to read your OP and the subsequent comments from the peanut gallery. 

Your well-written account hit and missed on a few points. 

First -you're right about the land of the lost customer like your GF - BMW loses out to fair weather consumers more than they should because of just what you said. 

Second - you're right, a la carte ordering of components is a losing financial effort for the consumer. However, BMW wins on profit margins here. And, they hedge that, based on historical sales figures - that prior to this recent economic crisis have always increased year over year - this approach offsets the lost customers like your GF. 

** By the way, try ordering a new Posrche one day, you have to pay for the steering wheel and windshield. All they give you for a base model is the rolling chassis and engine. Good Luck! (that's why Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world and one of the most profitable manufacturers per unit of any product in the world). 

Third - you're not "buying right." In this day and age, you and your GF should have first built all of the cars you mentioned on the web sites first, then went to the dealer for first: a test drive, then second, to work your salesman down off the MSRP cost of the full build.

Fourth - you neglect to realize that BMW has an ace up their sleeve that all the other competitors don't have. Either that or you forgot to mention it because despite your scathing criticism, BMW is a very successful brand. It's called: The TEST DRIVE. Once Joe Schmoe gets in the car and drives it, all of a sudden the abstruse menu of options, becomes crystal clear, in a sense. He's/she's gotta have the car!, unless, well, he/she really doesn't know things automotive. 

Most of us here have test driven all the competitors, and they're all fine cars in their own way. But the 3 series is the profit maker for the company and BMW will not apologize for structuring a cost system that keeps its margins healthy. After all, for the past thirty + plus years, it has the well recognized position of benchmark, with all the competitors chasing after it. Tell me, where at Wharton would they teach you that if you're number 1, that you should charge LESS than cars 2-6? 

The days of going to the dealer uninformed and hands out for the chopping block are over - build your cars on the web, get the secret invoice sheet (see above) go to the dealer to do battle. My CA told me 75% of his customers come into the dealership with a print out of their build off the their home computer. What happended with you two?


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

I'm not sure anyone thinks BMW is value leader in it's class. I look at it as, if I like the way the car performs I have to pay a premium. In truth, I think BMW is at the back of the pack(in it's class) when it comes to "value". When fun/the joy of driving is factored in it wins by a nose. For example the G 37 is a excellent car. Is it as good as a 335? I don't think so, but it's 90% or so. However, the G37 price point is closer to the 328. For the same money do you want a G37 or a 328. Different people will have different answers depending on what is most imporntant in a car to them. Bottom line is you can almost certainly find a better deal somewhere else, but can you find a car as rewarding to drive? At anywhere near the price? I doubt it.


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## MB330 (Oct 18, 2005)

robdokwon said:


> Delmarco:
> 
> It took almost half my lunch hour to read your OP and the subsequent comments from the peanut gallery.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: :bow: :bow: :bow:


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## delmarco (Jan 2, 2009)

tturedraider said:


> Mercedes has priced the C Class pretty aggressively. I built a C300 4matic and a 328xi equipped equivalently. The 328xi did indeed come out about $3,300 more than the C300. I still think the 3er is a better car. I couldn't find anywhere where Merc gives a good description of how their all-wheel-drive system works. BMW has a good description of theirs. My sense is BMW's xDrive is superior to Merc's 4matic.


Mmmmm...
I believe you quoted yourself as saying that "Merc drivers like to have things taken care of already for themselves..." so it makes sense that 4matic isn't explained in detail on their websites.

I assume all wheel drive is all wheel drive.

I'm glad you were able to see how the C300 and 328xi come out differently priced and you still get less stuff in your 328xi and pay more than you would with a C300.

That is what my main point is. But you also hit the hammer on the nail when you decribe BMW and Merc drivers. My gfriend is indeed of that Merc personality that needs it done for her, whiles I'm a guy that needs to know how my XDrive works and needs to feel the road when I drive. But I also need to know how my money is being spend and what I'm getting out of these $3,000 packages.

Said and done, after that shopping experience at the end of the day when you buying just a car it should come with 4 wheels, seats, the engine doors and a roof before you start building it.
When you are buying a luxury car and paying a luxury price the car should come with leather, sunroof, rims, xenons, fog lamps, paint, dimming mirrors, power everything, Hi-Fi system and then you start building it.

As a luxury priced and branded carmaker, BMW fails from a marketing stand point in this regard where as M.Benz and Audi excels!

That said, the idea of comprehensive packages win out. Hence why McDonalds is always making a profit in any economy whiles the Peter Lugers of the world are filing for Chaper 11 and 7 status.
Mcdonalds sell packages and packages are EASY, PRECISE and QUICKER to sell even though the food is crap! People always flock there. It's not every day you have 3 hours on your watch and $300 in your pocket for a Peter Luger lunch. But $3 and 30 seconds will get you fed in any McDonalds!

I'm not telling BMW to make crappy cheap cars, but package their cars better so buying them is fun, easy and quick. If it was me, I would INDEED pay extra for that 335xi to get it how I want, but I do not want my buying experience to leave me feeling like the little guy who just dropped the soap in the communal shower on an episode of OZ.



robdokwon said:


> Delmarco:
> 
> It took almost half my lunch hour to read your OP and the subsequent comments from the peanut gallery.
> 
> ...


okay, first off you come to a forums you may want to ready yourself for a bit of reading. It's not all just pictures and boobies on the internet you know...

Secondly, it's interesting what you said about Porche being the MOST SUCESSFUL company on the planet!
LMAO!
My gfriend's former job was accounting at a Hedgefund that had ties with the Porche company which avoided bankrupty last summer buy upping their stake to 70% in VW shares making them the prime shareholder. The subsequent mess that followed cost my gfriend her job which subsequently allowed her to get another, better paying job, which is now paying for her C350.

So I'm not sure where you get your info from on Porche being the most successful company, but as you already implied you prefer to spend your lunch hours looking at colorful pictures. In these times Luxury car makers are not doing nearly as well as the cheaper car makers. Nissan outsells Infinities and Honda outsells Acura. Hence, which is why Porche wised up and took over VW in order to avoid Chapter 11!

i didn't think it was worth mentioning in my already long posts that we did our HW. We constructed all the cars at the home computer before going in. But I guess you haven't went shopping for a new car in awhile and forgot that the dealership also have their own computers in which they build the cars for you. As for my gfriend being a "land of the lost"
customer, I don't think so. If It wasn't for me she wouldn't have given Audi or a BMW 335xi a second thought as she went ahead and just bought the C350. I cajoled her into going to the dealerships.

Regardless of a test drive or not, I don't see how a "land of the lost" customer would buy a sparsely packaged 335xi for more money than a better packaged C350! Plus after building your car on the home computer a nutless braindead monkey would see BOTH the luxury and economical appeal of the C350 over the 335xi. Long ago BMW figured out that most of the people that can afford their cars buy BMW for the luxury appeal and not wholly for driving. So BMW price and build their packages to suit those folks that make up 99% of their customers and 5% of the population.

That was my point.

My thread wasn't about two BMW enthusiast going into the dealership unprepared to buy a BMW!

It was about two real people with real money; My gfriend with the money for the car and me a BMW enthusiast trying to sway her. We don't just show up to test drive cars we won't be buying. After sitting down with the dealer and not getting the price we wanted, why the hell would I waste more time testing a car when the C350, in my gfriend's eyes, was the clear winner in terms of budgeting.

Test drives are for on-the-fence people who never sat in a new BMW or Mercedes before. We've been driving and been driven in BMWs and Mercedes our entire lives so there was nothing a test drive would add or detract after getting astromical figures for the 328xi and 335xi.

Also the days of going to the BMW Dealership and having them explain what the HELL Premium Package that only consist of mirror tricks and lumbar support costing $3350 is has just begun! seeing as how they DO NOT explain it on their BMWUSA website.

So Robdokwon, which are you a nutless brain dead monkey that would pay more for less or a true BMW enthusaist that would pay more for a BMW?


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## cBeam (Sep 6, 2006)

delmarco said:


> My gfriend's former job was accounting at a Hedgefund that had ties with the Porche company which avoided bankrupty last summer buy upping their stake to 70% in VW shares making them the prime shareholder.


:dunno:

I don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean Porsche (sic) was at the brink of bankruptcy or do you say the Hedgefund was at the brink of bankruptcy?

Some facts: Porsche was indeed very profitable in 2008 and nowhere near bankruptcy. However, many Hedgefunds bet against Porsche, sold VW shares short and found themselves squeezed when they were not able to buy back VW shares because Porsche already owned almost all of them. Many funds lost a lot of money and I guess that was the problem of your GF's fund.

Please do me a favor and don't spill silly nonsense across public boards like Porsche avoided bankruptcy. This is just plain misinformation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/090302/20090302005788.html?.v=1

Press Release	Source: Porsche Automobil Holding SE

Profits up again at Porsche
Monday March 2, 9:00 am ET

Operational business with double digit margin

STUTTGART, Germany--(BUSINESS WIRE)--After the first six months of the current 2008/09 business year (August 1, 2008 to January 31, 2009), Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart can look back on a further increase in Group profit before taxes. Although operating results at Porsche dropped in line with the development of turnover, the operating margin generated is still in double digits despite increased development costs for the Gran Turismo Panamera and for the hybrid drive of the Cayenne. On the basis of this ongoing positive performance in operating business positive effects from cash settled share option transactions by which Porsche participates in changes to the stock exchange price of the VW shares, led to a further increase of Group profit before taxes over the previous period. The precise result, however, can only be released with the half-year financial report scheduled for the end of March as the VW pro-rata result for the fourth quarter of 2008 is not yet available.

....


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

Didn't you read the brochure before walking into the dealership? Should have done your homework beforehand


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## ProfessorCook (Jan 19, 2009)

I take exception to the idea that a RWD car cannot perform competently in the snow. A good set of winter wheels and a bit of practice and you're good to go. Most spinouts and wipeouts in the winter occur when people change lanes incorrectly, drive erratically, drive too fast for conditions, or don't know how to brake. AWD does very little if anything to help out such drivers.

AWD in the snow helps you go up snow covered slopes, go through deep snow, and get unstuck in deep snow. That can indeed be important for some people, but not most.

I think this country has been brainwashed by car advertising over the last 40 years or so. Most consumers think FWD is better than RWD and that AWD is better than both.


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## swajames (Jan 16, 2005)

delmarco said:


> Secondly, it's interesting what you said about Porche being the MOST SUCESSFUL company on the planet!
> LMAO!
> My gfriend's former job was accounting at a Hedgefund that had ties with the Porche company which avoided bankrupty last summer buy upping their stake to 70% in VW shares making them the prime shareholder. The subsequent mess that followed cost my gfriend her job which subsequently allowed her to get another, better paying job, which is now paying for her C350.
> 
> So I'm not sure where you get your info from on Porche being the most successful company, but as you already implied you prefer to spend your lunch hours looking at colorful pictures. In these times Luxury car makers are not doing nearly as well as the cheaper car makers. Nissan outsells Infinities and Honda outsells Acura. Hence, which is why Porche wised up and took over VW in order to avoid Chapter 11!


Porsche's strategy to play the markets while it built its position in VW was as ingenious as it was brilliantly executed - to the point where 2008 profits ended up broadly equivalent to revenues. To suggest that Porsche came close to Chapter 11 is simply ridiculous.


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## peakpro (Oct 30, 2004)

to the OP...

your comments on Porsche are comical. You know less about them then the Permium package you complain about.

Some enthusiast!

LOL


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## HT417 (Dec 22, 2007)

ProfessorCook said:


> I take exception to the idea that a RWD car cannot perform competently in the snow. A good set of winter wheels and a bit of practice and you're good to go. Most spinouts and wipeouts in the winter occur when people change lanes incorrectly, drive erratically, drive too fast for conditions, or don't know how to brake. AWD does very little if anything to help out such drivers.
> 
> AWD in the snow helps you go up snow covered slopes, go through deep snow, and get unstuck in deep snow. That can indeed be important for some people, but not most.


Agreed.



ProfessorCook said:


> Most consumers think FWD is better than RWD and that AWD is better than both.


They think this because in general it's true. No FWD or RWD vehicle on this planet is going to be able to keep up with, let alone pass, an xDrive equipped vehicle in inclement weather conditions. And they can apply this fact to their own driving conditions and needs to determine what type of drive is best for them. Buying AWD in the southern states is a waste of money and gas while buying RWD for a daily driver in the north doesn't pass the common sense test to me.


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## delmarco (Jan 2, 2009)

MB330 said:


> :liar:
> 
> Audi Prestige package not included navigation, It's a $2,326 option (BMW - $1900)
> So, it's OK to pay $3.119 for better radio, 18" tires, CA and Line change Assistant, but not for BMW Premium pkg. BTW, a lot of drivers here skip this package and survive.
> ...


BMW Navagation package for a 2009 3 Series is $2100 and NOT $1900. Regardless of how you compare the individual Benz or Audi packages a fully decked out Audi A4 with EVERYTHING or even a C350 with just as much still cost less than a 335xi with almost as much.

I'm not putting down BMW as a car in terms of quality and heritage! I drive one! 
My rant was based on the garbage Premium Package and the time wasting we had to go thru sitting down at the Dealership trying to understand what we were getting for the money we would've been spending.

Like I said you have to be filthy rich and don't care about how your money is spent or a nutless, braindead orangutang to spend your earned money on stuff you aren't sure if you are getting or not via the inconsistent explaination at the Dealership.

And in NYC I indeed see tons of iDrive cars from 7 series to 5 and 3 series with Tom Tom Go. That is my opinion based on observation and I have no reason to lie about that. I can and will say that regardless of it bothers you or not. NYC does indeed have a higher volume of BMWs than other areas so my observation mey not be a representation of where you come from or live.

Why the animosity!? Are you guys all BMW sellers!? I just was ranting on my experience at the BMW Dealership.

*About my comments and your response concerning Porsche:*

I could care less about Porsche or their business dealings in the EU. But the reason Porsche did what they did was to avoid the pitfalls of the auto industry building cars faster than they can sell them. My gfriend's employers and investors were deeply invested in VW and when the deal went down they lost money and laid people off, one of whom was my gfriend. That is all I care to say about that so don't ask me about any explainations on Porsche or what followed. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the Porsche company so to challenge me to some _"my penis is bigger"_ competition on how much more you know than me about something I have absoluty no care about is a waste of your time not mine.

At the end of the day my gfriend got a better, higher paying job out of it that can afford her to buy a mercedes C350 or BMW 335xi which is more than I can say about alot of Americans in today's_ fecal matter _of an economy. She is a CPA Accountant and I'm an Environmental Engineer and we both don't care to be experts of Porsche or their business strategies. That saturday morning we were just your average car shoppers doing comparison shopping before dropping money on a car. She wanted a C350 as her first and only choice until I told her to check out BMw and Audi. We checked all three dealerships out and BMW FAILED, where as Audi and Benz EXCELED!

That is a fact based on our experiences that should not and cannot be disputed or argued over, so save your fingers for typing elsewhere.

As for what I orinally posted about my experience at the Dealership and them not being able to explain BMW's packages to me, I have no idea how anyone can challenge that in some poor attempt at a "I know more than you" contest. My knowledge of BMWs or Cars or Buying Cars can IN NO WAY explain or make it okay why an American born, english speaking BMW sales guy cannot explain to me what I am buying!

This was a rant about our experience between dealerships and if that makes BMW service and clarity to be _fecal matter _compared to Audi and M.Benz then so be it. You negative posters have no business to be storming my thread with insults to represent BMW like you are on BMW's payroll. BMW has no care about how I or you feel.

At the end of the day the fact remains is that a potential customer is now buying a Mercedes C350 and not a 335xi. That has nothing more to do with me or you, but in the long run it has everything to do BMW.

Please keep you comments to the topic and criticism to the topic at hand.


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## cBeam (Sep 6, 2006)

delmarco said:


> Why the animosity!? Are you guys all BMW sellers!? I just was ranting on my experience at the BMW Dealership.


You disqualify yourself spreading false information like "Premium Package only consists of mirrors" or "Porsche is near bankruptcy". Just for your info, premium package includes leather and Porsche is very profitable. If leather is too expensive for you, drop it. And if you don't like Porsche, no reason to spread nonsense. And let your GF enjoy her Benz, it is a good car.


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## TheodoreM (Oct 2, 2009)

energetik9 said:


> Nice selection of cars. I especially love the little tykes one seater. Nice :thumbup:


Thanks. That's probably the one that's brought the most smiles


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