# Tune and warranty questions



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Since all these piggybacks are emission illegal and no warranty, is $250 Dinan Sport a viable option within the group?


When I looked into the plug-in world back in 2016, the Sport Tune was a new product, and, as has been discussed, did not come with the more comprehensive Dinan warranty.

I felt that adding 3 psi of extra boost, coming on early in the rev range, with all other parameters controlled by the factory engine management systems, seemed a safe enough bet. I had several conversations with tech folks at Dinan, who were in California then and were fonts of information and very accessible. Not sure that's still the case regarding information and access.

I've never unhooked the box when I've taken the car in for service, and never had an issue with engine performance. BMW/MINI techs have seen my installation and their only comment was they wanted to drive the car. They seemed well-pleased with the extra grunt they experienced.

The plug-in, which is the most basic/crudest enhancement approach, can create momentary over-lean conditions. But the engine management computers are so fast now and the fueling and air adjustments are almost instantaneous, so there is almost no risk of damage or a code if one doesn't go higher than the Sport+/3 extra psi level.

The more sophisticated boxes and tunes mess with several parameters and hook into more engine sensors or adjust parameters from the various sensors. Many claim the more sophisticated tunes are smoother and offer more bang than the simple plug-in boost-tricking single sensor boxes. I'm sure that's true.

The new generation of BMW engines are amazing machines, and the factory auto tranny algorithms are truly amazing in most situations. My 2020 is more refined than was my 2017 version of essentially the same drivetrain. Overall, the cars continue to improve.

When people ask me how I like my plug-in, I tell them I like it, it's been trouble-free in 2 cars, but I always end with clearly stating that I am assuming all the risk for a little more fun.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> When I looked into the plug-in world back in 2016, the Sport Tune was a new product, and, as has been discussed, did not come with the more comprehensive Dinan warranty.
> 
> I felt that adding 3 psi of extra boost, coming on early in the rev range, with all other parameters controlled by the factory engine management systems, seemed a safe enough bet. I had several conversations with tech folks at Dinan, who were in California then and were fonts of information and very accessible. Not sure that's still the case regarding information and access.


The 2017 and up MINI's have B38/B46 engines, those are modular designs that are shared with B58 6-cylinder, so 3/4-cylinder ones have components(.e.g. TC and guards) that are also used for 6-cylinder, and those components should have some margin to suck up extra 3psi.

My N26 though is already highly strung(15+ psi?), so any tune on top can stress the TC further.

BMWNA has a 7 yrs/70k miles TC ELW, but may settle class action to extend ELW further(say, 10 yrs/100k miles?). In my case it is prudent to stay stock.

My thinking is that the best tune is to upgrade, say, EVs?


----------



## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

Came across this Reddit post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BmwTech/co...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

On a side note, I paid to play regarding a bench flash tune for my F83 as the stage tune 2 caused a SCH. We all learn, as I'm finished with after market tuning and will just purchase the competition model going forward. My S55 engine is back to factory warranty, as the lease is up next month. The X5M S63 engine I considered tuning, but did not want to take the risk of fixing a V8 engine out of pocket.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Came across this Reddit post:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/BmwTech/co...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
> 
> On a side note, I paid to play regarding a bench flash tune for my F83 as the stage tune 2 caused a SCH. We all learn, as I'm finished with after market tuning and will just purchase the competition model going forward. My S55 engine is back to factory warranty, as the lease is up next month. The X5M S63 engine I considered tuning, but did not want to take the risk of fixing a V8 engine out of pocket.


What is SCH? Is that drivetrain malfunction?

Is Tesla/Porsche/Audi EV on your list of next performance upgrade?


----------



## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

namelessman said:


> What is SCH? Is that drivetrain malfunction?
> 
> Is Tesla/Porsche/Audi EV on your list of next performance upgrade?


Yes, its a drive train malfunction that will put the car in "limp mode". SCH is a spun crank hub, issue for all N54/N55/S55 engines: https://movementmotorsports.com/your-bmw-engine-is-a-ticking-time-bomb/

https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/blog/bmw-f8x-m3m4-m2-competition-crank-hub-issue/

Dealership offered to install a bolt on for the S55 if I wanted to keep the tune, told em no more tune, back to stock. Also, a BMW field tech I meet at a NFL tailgate party 2 years ago told me that BMW NA is well aware of the SCH issue and was denying warranty claims.

Only BMW in future.

Back to OP's question, I'm unaware of issues with the S63 engine, but this engine isn't as tuned as frequently compared to the N54/N55/S55 engine. Posts on the various forums has limited feed back date.

PS I attempted to re-flash my ECU back to factory, but the tuner in Germany locked the ECU as I needed original eprom file. The car had a stage II tune during ED. The ECU was bricked, that I purchased a new ECU, but the local indy tuner couldn't rewrite the new ECU back to factory as BMW AG has locked that aspect of the software that is sold to 3rd parties. To make maters worse, the indy when he replaced the ECU installed the intercoolers incorrectly that the engine leaked the fluid when it was towed to the dealership that the indy paid to fix that. Who ever purchases this car after I turn in from lease will not be aware of all this work since I paid out of pocket and the car is being returned to a different dealership from who performed the engine rebuild. There is no trace of the work as it wasn't covered under BMW NA warranty. Interesting is that the installed catless downpipes in Germany passed US Customs, VDC and PCD inspection upon US delivery-- no one detected the stage II tune.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Ibiza said:


> Yes, its a drive train malfunction that will put the car in "limp mode". SCH is a spun crank hub, issue for all N54/N55/S55 engines: https://movementmotorsports.com/your-bmw-engine-is-a-ticking-time-bomb/
> 
> https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/blog/bmw-f8x-m3m4-m2-competition-crank-hub-issue/
> 
> ...


Wow single-bolted crank hub on high performance drivetrain ....

Your tuning experience and hiccups are quite common, it is not just pay-to-play, but somewhat pay-to-suffer too. :[

My N26 is part of the N20/N26 timing chain class action, apparently there will be a settlement within a month, but since the class action started 3 years ago, my thinking is that maybe Tesla is a viable option, given factory delivery will be just down the road, and the tech appears to be pretty cool.

However, at this point of Tesla's QA and manufacturing prowness, my leaning is to sit out another generation or two of Tesla.

If BMWNA extends my TC coverage for another 2-3 yrs, may be BMWAG will have some interesting EV/hybrid tech that will come out by then.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

namelessman said:


> Wow single-bolted crank hub on high performance drivetrain ....


Reading up on this N54/N55/S55 issue, it looks like the ECU can pick up the timing change and trigger a drivetrain malfunction and shutdown the engine.

That is not bad compared to N20/N26 TC failure, in which stretched TC can lead to shattered guard rails, sending pieces into oil pump, and/or skipping teeth to cause collision of valves and pistons.

It is painful to see those blown N20/N26 engines, which otherwise are great I4 turbo with minimal out-of-pocket expenses to last way way past 100-150k miles .... oh well.


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Terrific advice here. One bit no one has mentioned: The most fantastic warranty in the world is useless if the issuer goes Tango Uniform. I have zero insider information on Dinan, or whoever owns the Dinan name today. For all I know, they are on sounder financial ground than BMWAG (though I doubt it). But if Dinan goes out of business and you no longer have the OE BMW warranty to fall back on, are you in a pickle?


----------



## richpat69 (Dec 29, 2013)

I've owned a bunch of high performance vettes, i.e., Z06 and ZR1 and the question of changes to the drivetrain, particularly items that add additional power and the impact upon warranties has been broached on numerous occasions. 

A manufacturer warrants a car based on its original build. The engine and drivetrain were designed to function under a set of conditions that have been carefully designed by the company's engineers and under normal circumstances the estimates of failure are well known. Any change to the car in the way of additional HP or torque now puts some portion of the drivetrain at risk for the likelihood of failure sooner than anticipated. It would be unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to warranty that portion of a car that has had modifications that increase the likelihood of failure to the system with the mods. Increase the HP/Torque and your warranty for the drivetrain, unless you get lucky with a dealer that does the fix for you under warranty, is gone.

This is not my area of law but I think this would be a slam dunk case for BMW.


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

richpat69 said:


> I've owned a bunch of high performance vettes, i.e., Z06 and ZR1 and the question of changes to the drivetrain, particularly items that add additional power and the impact upon warranties has been broached on numerous occasions.
> 
> A manufacturer warrants a car based on its original build. The engine and drivetrain were designed to function under a set of conditions that have been carefully designed by the company's engineers and under normal circumstances the estimates of failure are well known. Any change to the car in the way of additional HP or torque now puts some portion of the drivetrain at risk for the likelihood of failure sooner than anticipated. It would be unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to warranty that portion of a car that has had modifications that increase the likelihood of failure to the system with the mods. Increase the HP/Torque and your warranty for the drivetrain, unless you get lucky with a dealer that does the fix for you under warranty, is gone.
> 
> This is not my area of law but *I think this would be a slam dunk case for BMW*.


Here's the part that most dont appreciate:

if BMW 'voids' the warranty, the ONLY thing you can do is go to court. Lawsuit, discovery, depositions, a trial. BMW knows that 99.9999% of customers (I may be low on this number) cannot/will not fund a lawsuit of $50,000-100,000 over a mod.

People (ie people selling mods, aka tune vendors, part vendors) will wave the Magnussen Moss flag around, thumping their chests about how you can mod and the mfg has the burden of proof. They do this KNOWING it is impossible for any of their customers to press their cases.

And all this is before we get to your point, which is the technical arguments. BMW engineers likely have graphs that will statistically describe the failure risk as a function of HP/torque changes. And thats not even getting into controls that have they might act to protect the driveline that tunes might circumvent. Of course, you can hire your own experts, $600 an hour. 10-20 hrs on metallurgy, same on software and engine control. Then prep time, report time. Travel. I mean dont get me wrong, its a sweet gig to be an expert witness. Sucks to be paying for one... :angel:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> Here's the part that most dont appreciate:
> 
> if BMW 'voids' the warranty, the ONLY thing you can do is go to court. Lawsuit, discovery, depositions, a trial. BMW knows that 99.9999% of customers (I may be low on this number) cannot/will not fund a lawsuit of $50,000-100,000 over a mod.


There may also be cases that even bone stock and good behavior from owner may not guarantee good faith from manufacturer.


----------

