# How do YOU shift for corners in your 3



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I use neutral only when I'm waiting at the traffic lights. 

When the car is moving, I need the traction all the time. You never know.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

SLang said:


> I don't know about you guys, but I never downshift into first from a roll. If the car's moving, even 5 MPH, the farthest down I'll go is 2nd. You can really hear the synchros struggle on a 2-1 downshift, at any speed. Just doesn't seem sympathetic to the machinery.


I RARELY do this, but on my car you can't hear any struggle at all. My ZHP slips right into first without a noise, an effort or a flinch. It's the same tranny with different linkage than the non ZHP 330i right?


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

Alex Baumann said:


> I use neutral only when I'm waiting at the traffic lights.
> 
> When the car is moving, I need the traction all the time. You never know.


 :thumbup:


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## SLang (Dec 1, 2003)

Coasting in neutral makes no sense. It leaves you open in emergency situations where the time it takes to get the clutch in, get the car into gear and the clutch out can make the difference between an accident and a near-miss. Don't do it.

short version: I agree with Roadstergal.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

SLang said:


> Coasting in neutral makes no sense. It leaves you open in emergency situations where the time it takes to get the clutch in, get the car into gear and the clutch out can make the difference between an accident and a near-miss. Don't do it.


 :thumbup:


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

The Roadstergal said:


> I don't get the putting into neutral. That takes away one immediate option - if I'm in the turn in gear and something unexpected happens, I have the option to stop (cluch and brake) or accelerate (throttle). If I'm not in gear, the latter isn't really a panic option, as shifting takes too long.


Yeah. That's just what I do, not the best thing. I should have been more clear in my orginal post -- he asked what we do as well as for recommendations. The first way is is fine, the second is what I do sometimes, but shouldn't.

People run red lights here so often that I always take a long slow look before turning right. The corners are very sharp, and the streets are in bad repair and there is a tree or something blocking the view so it isn't safe to go around them very fast anyway I often end up back in 1st or 2nd by the time I'm actually in the intersection.

Atlanta shouldn't have green right turn arrows. Those things are just an invitation to get side-swiped.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

kurichan said:


> Despite the fact that I fail to see how that matters as citizens are supposed to obey laws out of civic duty, not just threat of enforcement, I would suppose that certain people might admit to it after being involved in accidents.
> 
> People say the silliest things...


People blab like tools when they get around cops. It's maddening to defense attorneys how people open their mouths and give away the farm.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> People blab like tools when they get around cops. It's maddening to defense attorneys how people open their mouths and give away the farm.


Follow the advice in your insurance guide: admit no fault, say nothing...


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Most of the time I get all my braking and downshifting done before turn in. NEVER in neutral in a turn for reasons others have already described. Never in neutral while car is in motion at all actually...

If I'm just casually cruising to a corner, I'll downshift ahead of time... brake, ease off the brake, turn in... roll on throttle while unwinding the wheel.

If I'm coming to it with more speed, heel-toe and ease off the brake before turn-in... (sometimes I'll trail brake depending on the circumstances) roll on throttle while unwinding the wheel.

I just want to say that depending on what gear and position your steering is in... don't mash the throttle... you could put yourself into power oversteer and that would not be good if you're not ready to handle it and keep the car in control.

As for double clutching... I find that on my car... if my revs have been high for some time, the 3 to 2 downshift will feel like it's making the synchros struggle... (normal 3 to 2 downshifts on the street are just fine) I will double clutch to make the shift easier. Never have I tried a 2 to 1 downshift as long as the car is moving.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Brake to desired speed, downshift to desired gear while braking, then turn wheel?


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

SLang said:


> Coasting in neutral makes no sense. It leaves you open in emergency situations where the time it takes to get the clutch in, get the car into gear and the clutch out can make the difference between an accident and a near-miss. Don't do it.
> 
> short version: I agree with Roadstergal.


Yes. Not the best, just how I drive sometimes. I was answering the "what do you do?" part of his question. I'm going to go back and edit my post...


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

The Roadstergal said:


> I'm only in neutral if I'm at a light of significant duration.


What do you call significant? And how do you know a priori how long the light will be?
If it's not significant, what do you do? You ride the clutch with gear engaged?



The Roadstergal said:


> I have one just outside...


Picture?


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

kurichan said:


> Despite the fact that I fail to see how that matters as citizens are supposed to obey laws out of civic duty, not just threat of enforcement, I would suppose that certain people might admit to it after being involved in accidents.
> 
> People say the silliest things...


:bustingup
Yeah right.
:rofl: 
My civic duty is to find stupid laws and challenge them and make them change for the good of the entire society. :angel:
Want an example of stupid law? Required front licence plates.


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## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

SLang said:


> I don't know about you guys, but I never downshift into first from a roll. If the car's moving, even 5 MPH, the farthest down I'll go is 2nd. You can really hear the synchros struggle on a 2-1 downshift, at any speed. Just doesn't seem sympathetic to the machinery.


This is the "textbook" situation where double-clutching makes a difference....try it....you might like it...

Regards,
Bob


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> What do you call significant? And how do you know a priori how long the light will be?
> If it's not significant, what do you do? You ride the clutch with gear engaged?


Come on Jet! Let's not be silly... Think about this a little...


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

SLang said:


> short version: I agree with Roadstergal.


You agreed out of context.
We're talking about coasting in neutral on a long stretch, when traffic permits.
RGal was talking about coasting during a turn. That makes no sense, and nobody is advocating that.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I agree with doeboy. Heel-toe if coming in hard, otherwise downshift while at speed then brake if coming in slowly.

What's trail braking? When you brake before and through the turn?

Downshifting from 3-2, especially if hard, and always 2-1 while in motion are, I think, great situations for double clutching. I always double clutch downshift, though. It's pretty easy, although I have to get faster (and still a little smoother) at it. Clutch in, shift to neutral, clutch out, blip, clutch in, lightly press shifter into gear, clutch out in a smooth motion right after popping into gear. If I'm downshifting to 2, I ease the clutch out a little slower than for the others. Downshifting to 1 means easing out even more slowly.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

JetBlack330i said:


> You agreed out of context.
> We're talking about coasting in neutral on a long stretch, when traffic permits.
> RGal was talking about coasting during a turn. That makes no sense, and nobody is advocating that.


How are they much different?


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## Patrick330i (Sep 30, 2002)

BMW_Brand said:


> Ok, your coming to a green right arrow and your going to make a turn, currently traveling at say 45 mph - which of the following (if any) do you do (not a quiz, just curious):
> 
> A) Apply brakes, push and hold down clutch pedal throughout the entire turn while braking, and at one point make the downshift
> 
> ...


Damn, you are asking me to think a lot. My brain is starting to hurt. WTF?  I nail my corners whenever practical. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it!  (I do take it easy at lights because of traffic and the man might be around.)


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> People blab like tools when they get around cops. It's maddening to defense attorneys how people open their mouths and give away the farm.


It's not that I disagree that people will say stupid things.
I disagree that someone should be penalized for coating, unless that is the cause of an accident. Just because it's in the books doesn't make it so. Like I said, there're all kind of stupid rules and signs.
So, let's say a driver, coating in neutral is involved in an accident. Convince me that it's his/her fault because he/she failed to speed away. 
Again, let's not bring the specific scenario of going down on a steep grade downhill on highways. Those stretches are usually well marked with "Keep transmission engaged" signs. We're talking about city driving.


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

swchang said:


> How are they much different?


Very different in application and purpose.
Everyday going to work, I exit highway and have a 1.5 mile stretch, slight downhill, to the traffic light. The grade is just steep enough to keep my speed constant through. I coast all the way, saving much gas, environment, engine, brakes and transmission over the years.
Coasting during a turn saves nothing and gets you nowhere. You enter the turn at usually slow speeds and need the power to complete it. Coating through the turn would simply cause traffic problems and get you honks.


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> As for double clutching... I find that on my car... if my revs have been high for some time, the 3 to 2 downshift will feel like it's making the synchros struggle... (normal 3 to 2 downshifts on the street are just fine) I will double clutch to make the shift easier. Never have I tried a 2 to 1 downshift as long as the car is moving.


You will have no problem going from 2 to 1 if you double clutch and rev match. But when you rev match you have to know your current speed and current 2nd gear RPMs, then hold the accelerator down at the right point. Don't blip it, hold the pedal at the right place and you'll have no problem getting into 1st and you can release the clutch in one shot without the usual head bob (and clutch wear)

I do the same on the highway. Say I'm in 5th doing 65 and I want to pass the guy in front of me in the left lane. Keep foot on gas (do not blip or lift it off the gas) and anticipate the revs you'll need to be in for 4th gear. Double clutch it and it will be such a smooth transition, you'll be amazed.

Key to double clutch rev matching- anticipate the rev's you'll need for the lower gear and don't lift your foot off the gas (BUT don't over rev)

My ride- 02' with 45K miles, original clutch (still grabs like new) and I taught myself stick on this car. Has it been babied... hell no :thumbup:


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

kurichan said:


> Come on Jet! Let's not be silly... Think about this a little...


I'm still confused.
Just make your point, without sarcasm please.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> So, let's say a driver, coating in neutral is involved in an accident. Convince me that it's his/her fault because he/she failed to speed away.
> ... We're talking about city driving.


The person from Atlanta brought up a perfect situation.

Turning right on a green light; idiot coming through intersection from left ignores red light (happens all the time). You are already coasting into the intersection. In neutral, the only choices you have are to continue coasting and get hit, or stop and get hit.

In the proper gear, you have full control of the car and at least have a fighting chance to proactively avoid the accident.


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## SLang (Dec 1, 2003)

jetblack, this is where I was agreeing with Roadstergal, so it was in context...note she talks about turning:



> I don't get the putting into neutral. That takes away one immediate option - if I'm in the turn in gear and something unexpected happens, I have the option to stop (cluch and brake) or accelerate (throttle). If I'm not in gear, the latter isn't really a panic option, as shifting takes too long. I'm only in neutral if I'm at a light of significant duration.


Someone asked about trail braking - it's where you carry the brakes into the corner through the turn-in point, nearly to the apex, even though the real hard braking is still done in a straight line prior to turn-in. I like it because it loads up the front tires and lets them bite more. The risks are you unload the rear tires and risk going loose, and you're now asking the fronts to brake AND turn at the same time, which leaves them less able to do either 100% effectively. It's more of a track technique. If you're driving like that on the street you might be driving a bit hard.... :thumbup:

WRT double clutching - I get it, I can do it and all that, it's just that I can bang off a one-clutch downshift a lot faster. Plus, I like cars that have enough low speed torque that allows me to take off in 2nd from a slight roll, just my style, so I never bother to go to 1st from a low speed roll. It also doesn't hurt that it's two less uses of the clutch every time......


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> Everyday going to work, I exit highway and have a 1.5 mile stretch, slight downhill, to the traffic light. The grade is just steep enough to keep my speed constant through. I coast all the way, saving much gas, environment, engine, brakes and transmission over the years.


You are actually WASTING gas by coasting! :rofl:

Here is how modern cars work: take your foot off the gas with the car in gear and the fuel injectors shut down and gasoline is not used. Coast in neutral and the fuel injectors go to idle cycle, injecting fuel and wasting precious gasoline and ruining the environment.

Ironic and counterintuitive it may be, but it is what it is!


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> I'm still confused.





JetBlack330i said:


> What do you call significant? And how do you know a priori how long the light will be? If it's not significant, what do you do? You ride the clutch with gear engaged?


It is quite easy to judge based on the size and busyness of an intersection, without a priori knowledge, approximately how long you will likely be sitting at a light.

Depressing the clutch pedal with the car in gear is not "riding the clutch" and is perfectly acceptable for a short period of time. Riding the clutch is when you sit on an incline, no brakes, feathering the clutch and adjusting the RPMs to stay stationary.


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## mkIRM3Vert (Aug 17, 2004)

BMW_Brand said:


> Ok, your coming to a green right arrow and your going to make a turn, currently traveling at say 45 mph - which of the following (if any) do you do (not a quiz, just curious):
> 
> ...
> 
> ... I'm actually just trying to find out if it is better to downshift before entering the turn, during the turn, or after leaving the turn...


E)

I rarely use breaks at all when going through a corner. What I do instead, like others have mentioned, is always pull rev-matched, double-clutched downshifts. Usually these start with either 6-4, 6-3, or 5-2 downshift. And rarely a 6-2 downshift. I then follow with a 4-2, 4-3, 3-2, or 2-1 as necessary. I almost never do the 2-1 above 20 mph. Sometimes on real sharp turns, then I tap the breaks after the downshift(s) if my speed is still to high to make the corner safely.

In fact this is how I slow the car down in general, whether it be to take a corner or stop at a light. Although in heavy traffic I sometime punt and use the break for fear of getting rear-ended.


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## btmoon (Oct 25, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Oh, and you shouldn't shift into neutral. Brake, and downshift when you're ready. You should never be in neutral.


I agree with Nick...


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

BMW_Brand said:


> Ok, your coming to a green right arrow and your going to make a turn, currently traveling at say 45 mph - which of the following (if any) do you do (not a quiz, just curious):


All the options in the original question require brakes! You don't need no stinkin' brakes. Go in hot, turn the wheel, take your foot off the gas until the tail kicks out, then gas it and powerdrift through the turn!

Geez.

Brakes... :tsk:


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## mkIRM3Vert (Aug 17, 2004)

KrisL said:


> Double-clutching used to be a necessity - on transmissions that did not have synchro gears back in the day. It hasn't been necessary in .. 20 or 30 years?  The amount of wear and tear (on your tranny synchros, not your clutch) is /very/ negligible.


I defer this one to the BMW engineers. In designing the SMG II system, they programmed it to double clutch on every downshift. I simply try to emulate that system as closely as possible, even though i'll never be able to match it in terms of raw speed.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

kurichan said:


> The person from Atlanta brought up a perfect situation.
> 
> Turning right on a green light; idiot coming through intersection from left ignores red light (happens all the time). You are already coasting into the intersection. In neutral, the only choices you have are to continue coasting and get hit, or stop and get hit.
> 
> In the proper gear, you have full control of the car and at least have a fighting chance to proactively avoid the accident.


Yes. At least in San Diego, where most drivers obey most of the laws.

With a green right arrow, your best hope is that light runner will hit some poor fool turning left first.

Once you are into the intersection chances are good you are going to get hit. As often as not, the idiot running the light has punched it to try and clear the intersection before the on-coming traffic starts up. Most cars aren't fast enough to get out of the way. An M3 could. Not so sure about a 325 with me driving. The downside is that there is a very good chance there will be a wrong way car in your lane racing to get to the left turn lane before that green left arrow goes out. You still might be able to drive your way out of it. Closing your eyes and singing might help too.

After 3 years I'm finaly getting the hang of it. Yellow means go, red is a mere suggestion to stop and green means proceed with caution.

--------------------------------------------------

Man killed by out-of-control car

By MIKE MORRIS
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 08/12/04

A man waiting for a bus along LaVista Road was killed Wednesday afternoon when he was struck by an out-of-control car.

DeKalb police spokesman Dale Davis said a Nissan Maxima was eastbound on LaVista near Brookforest Drive about 3 p.m. when a car pulling out from a driveway "clipped the rear end of the Nissan, causing [the Nissan driver] to lose control, leave the roadway and strike a pedestrian standing at a MARTA bus stop."​


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

kurichan said:


> All the options in the original question require brakes! You don't need no stinkin' brakes. Go in hot, turn the wheel, take your foot off the gas until the tail kicks out, then gas it and powerdrift through the turn!
> 
> Geez.
> 
> Brakes... :tsk:


707 pedestrians were hit and killed by cars in California in 2002.


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

kurichan said:


> The person from Atlanta brought up a perfect situation.
> 
> Turning right on a green light; idiot coming through intersection from left ignores red light (happens all the time). You are already coasting into the intersection. In neutral, the only choices you have are to continue coasting and get hit, or stop and get hit.
> 
> In the proper gear, you have full control of the car and at least have a fighting chance to proactively avoid the accident.


And my coasting caused the accident? Or was it my not speeding away that caused the accident? How many people that are in gear would react by speeding away? :dunno: 
There is already a law against running a red light, why there must be one against coasting?
See one of my previous posts. Nobody is advocating coasting into a turn.


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

kurichan said:


> You are actually WASTING gas by coasting! :rofl:
> 
> Here is how modern cars work: take your foot off the gas with the car in gear and the fuel injectors shut down and gasoline is not used. Coast in neutral and the fuel injectors go to idle cycle, injecting fuel and wasting precious gasoline and ruining the environment.
> 
> Ironic and counterintuitive it may be, but it is what it is!


Yeah, but engaged I might go 300 feet, max. No the 1.5 miles that I need.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> And my coasting caused the accident? Or was it my not speeding away that caused the accident? How many people that are in gear would react by speeding away? :dunno:
> There is already a law against running a red light, why there must be one against coasting?
> See one of my previous posts. Nobody is advocating coasting into a turn.


Jet, why do you use these arguments that don't make sense and deflect away from the main point?

The person who ran the light caused the accident. That's perfectly clear. But wouldn't it be better to have a fighting chance to avoid it? And no, you don't have to "speed" away (yes, I caught your implication). Sure there are silly laws, but it's plainly syllogistic to imply that just because some laws are silly, a law requiring you to keep your car under full control is silly. If you are a libertarian just say so and we can stop here. Personally, I think traffic laws make sense, especially laws that require drivers of dangerous 3000+ chunks of flying metal to keep the car under control by keeping it in gear.


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> Yeah, but engaged I might go 300 feet, max. No the 1.5 miles that I need.


You have an automatic?


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## kurichan (May 1, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> My civic duty is to find stupid laws and challenge them and make them change for the good of the entire society. :angel:


We need more people like you.



> Want an example of stupid law? Required front licence plates.


We just need them focused on IMPORTANT things, not the absurd... Why are front license plate laws stupid? I hate front plates, but they are there for at least two reasons I can think of off the top of my head... Just because you personally don't like something, doesn't mean it's stupid. :tsk:


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

kurichan said:


> We just need them focused on IMPORTANT things, not the absurd... Why are front license plate laws stupid? I hate front plates, but they are there for at least two reasons I can think of off the top of my head... Just because you personally don't like something, doesn't mean it's stupid. :tsk:


It's not just me. A lot of people in this board thing that way as well. Many states don't require them.
If law enforcement in those states can do their jobs without front license plates, they are unnecessary.


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

rumratt said:


> You're likely not saving any gas, and in fact could be using more.
> 
> With the car in gear, you need to use gas to keep the engine idling. While in gear and coasting down hill, you gravity keeps the engine turning.


In gear, engine breaking slows/stops the car sooner than I need. So I have to use gas for the rest of the distance. Coasting I can keep the speed fairly constant and high enough to not disturb traffic. Idle gas used is insignificant.
My empirical experiments over many years has proven me right.
It's not just the technical aspect. The bottom line is at the gas station. I get better mileage when I coast, for the kind of route I take.


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