# ****SPOILER**** Post San Marino GP results here



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Motown328 said:


> HEEEEEEEY!!!!!! Not bad for me!!!!!! After Friday's practice, Schummy is first, Rubens 2nd, Ralf 3rd, and the kicker, JPM 6th!!!!! Of course, Rubens is on a different strategy that Michael so it will probably be Michael on the pole and Rubens second. Let's wait for Saturday morning, which will determine who wins the race, barring mechanical failure.


Not any more...Button/Sato are fastest after the second round. But, yeah, Saturday will probably determine Sunday's results.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

berford said:


> Not any more...Button/Sato are fastest after the second round. But, yeah, Saturday will probably determine Sunday's results.


Williams doesn't typically work to be tops on Friday. They developed excellect pace on Saturday in Bahrain then seemed to lose it for qualifying. BAR seems to have made the right move leaving Bridgestone. The Ferrari / Bridgestone alliance could be holding back the other Bridgestone teams as well.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Good call Steve. I remember when Monty first raced in F1, I'd get all concerned about a relative lack of pace on Friday... but they had a program and stuck to it. 

Then on Saturday and Sunday, he was there.

So I don't worry about Williams much on Friday.

We shall see what tomorrow brings, because that has been a very good indicator for Sunday pace up to this point.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

Well, we have six and a half hours to go before qualifying......any predictions?!?! I'll stick to my original, for better or worse.

1,2-%$#@ damn it....!!!!!!!!!

3-Ralf

6-JPM

What do you say?

(if we don't get Michael off the pole, the race is over)

(his new nickname should be Michael Myers...because he can't be stopped! and he kid of looks like him as well...if you've seen Halloween 5...) (I know if F1 was huge in the U.S., that WOULD be his nickname...)


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

Honda looked quick today.

Alex


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## CaliJeff (Jan 28, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> snip
> 
> And who thiks Kimi's engine will even last 15 laps? Maybe a poll on when Kimi will blow up.


What does the person who predicts correctly get? A bic lighter?


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

CaliJeff said:


> What does the person who predicts correctly get? A bic lighter?


That would be appropraite.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Practice times don't mean squat. So far this year Ferrari has not been the fastest in practice, probably saving their engines.

But they still manage to get the cars set up properly. 

The only things that matter are the second qualifying run and the race. Everythin before that is a head game.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Nice lineup. This could be a good race!
http://www.formula1.com/race/result/717/16.html


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

If JPM can get by MS at the start from the clean side of the track this could be good. Is Button really that quick or was he light? I'm guessing the latter.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Topaz330xi said:


> If JPM can get by MS at the start from the clean side of the track this could be good. Is Button really that quick or was he light? I'm guessing the latter.


It was a good qualifying and the race will be interesting. You have to guess that Button is a bit light and Montoya has a bit more fuel than he had in prelim. It looks like Williams is beginning to get the FW26 on top of things. For me, BAR is a further example of the monopoly Ferrari has tried to create at Bridgestone. Michelin treats all of the teams individually. This is a separate topic all by itself. True Honda has come up with a better engine (why did it take so long) and Geoff Willis is doing well there. Just getting BAR in the competitive mix makes for better racing.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

SteveT said:


> It was a good qualifying and the race will be interesting. You have to guess that Button is a bit light and Montoya has a bit more fuel than he had in prelim. It looks like Williams is beginning to get the FW26 on top of things. For me, BAR is a further example of the monopoly Ferrari has tried to create at Bridgestone. Michelin treats all of the teams individually. This is a separate topic all by itself. True Honda has come up with a better engine (why did it take so long) and Geoff Willis is doing well there. Just getting BAR in the competitive mix makes for better racing.


Well said. Can't wait for the race. It should be worlds better than the first three.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Topaz330xi said:


> If JPM can get by MS at the start from the clean side of the track this could be good. Is Button really that quick or was he light? I'm guessing the latter.


Light 

On the other side, I think that Mclaren should borrow AMG engines for their cars  :angel:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Anyone noticed the Senna picture on the Jordans ?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*Damn. There must be panic on the streets of Mugello right now.* 



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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Check out the www.senna.tv website. I think I saw in on the Minardi. Anyway, they've got a DVD for sale there of his career. It could be something nice to have.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Light


So was Michael.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

:thumbup: to Jenson.

JPM was pretty happy with his lap and position... my guess is they have a decent amount of fuel on, so they should be in good shape. 

Here's a good JPM quote on Button's lap:

"The track was getting so much quicker and - this morning, you thought it could be a 20.9 or a 21 - you never know. Then you see Jenson's time and you go like "Jesus Christ, where am I going to pull the time?". He did a bloody good job!"


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

One other thought on Button before I forget...

Now that there's no more pay feeds for F1, there are on-board cameras on every car that they can cut to.

One thing I've noticed about Button at every circuit (today too) is his hands... watch them on the wheel. He is *amazingly* smooth, and extremely efficient. My guess would be that because of that, his race pace would be pretty consistent from lap to lap. I haven't seen full lap charts, but his smoothness is really awesome.


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

racerdave said:


> One other thought on Button before I forget...
> 
> Now that there's no more pay feeds for F1, there are on-board cameras on every car that they can cut to.
> 
> One thing I've noticed about Button at every circuit (today too) is his hands... watch them on the wheel. He is *amazingly* smooth, and extremely efficient. My guess would be that because of that, his race pace would be pretty consistent from lap to lap. I haven't seen full lap charts, but his smoothness is really awesome.


How much of the smoothness do you attribute to the driver vs. the car's set up?

Alex


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## Clarke (Oct 21, 2002)

When you're qualifying on the edge and are that smooth its mostly driver:thumbup: unless the car is a total pig(which it's not).


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Also MS had a bobble in the 3rd sector. He was up about 0.2 going into the 3rd sector, and lost 0.5 in that sector.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

BahnBaum said:


> How much of the smoothness do you attribute to the driver vs. the car's set up?
> 
> Alex


Sure, if the car is great, the driver will have to do less to "manhandle" the car and get it to do what he needs. And I don't doubt the BAR is quite good.

But I really think it's a style issue... and Button's style is just very, very smooth.

Contrast to Montoya, who can probably do more with a slightly "off" car than anyone today. His style is to hustle the car, work it hard and use his talent to keep the thing on the tarmac.

Schumi is kind of the most impressive... he's a chameleon. If the car is great, he can be really smooth. But if the car is off, he can hustle it too.

That's at least how I see it... from very far away using just in-car clips for those observations.

So in this case, I think it's a style issue.

IMHO.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Good observation WRT Button, Dave. He's also gaining confidence in himself and the car.

JPM's quote was a very honest one. Even Ralf had a complement for Jenson.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

So what does JV think of all this?


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

racerdave said:


> So what does JV think of all this?


I was very disappointed when JV went to BAR. I thought he should have let someone else go there, work the tough times, and then move there later. Easy to say now I know, but he essentially destroyed his career.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Especially when he's not a "team builder" like Schumacher.

That's one of Schumacher's greatest strengths... recognizing what he needed in personnel and getting them to go with him, building the team and not tearing it down with stray comments.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

well in the in-car camera video MS was way, way smoother than all the other herky-jerky drivers, but he carried too much speed exiting one high-speed turn sliding wide and it cost him the pole for sure (I couldn't believe he even saved it :yikes: )


San Marino GP - Saturday qualifying times (2). 

1 Jenson Button Britain BAR-Honda 1min 19.753secs 
2. Michael Schumacher Germany Ferrari-Ferrari 1min 20.011secs +0.258secs 
3. Juan Montoya Colombia Williams-BMW 1min 20.212secs +0.459secs 
4. Rubens Barrichello Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari 1min 20.451secs +0.698secs 
5. Ralf Schumacher Germany Williams-BMW 1min 20.538secs +0.785secs 
6. Fernando Alonso Spain Renault-Renault 1min 20.895secs +1.142secs 
7. Takuma Sato Japan BAR-Honda 1min 20.913secs +1.160secs 
8 Mark Webber Australia Jaguar-Cosworth 1min 20.921secs +1.168secs 
9. Jarno Trulli Italy Renault-Renault 1min 21.034secs +1.281secs 
10. Cristiano da Matta Brazil Toyota-Toyota 1min 21.087secs +1.334secs 
11. David Coulthard Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1min 21.091secs +1.338secs 
12. Felipe Massa Brazil Sauber-Petronas 1min.21.532secs +1.779secs 
13. Olivier Panis France Toyota-Toyota 1min 21.558secs +1.805secs 
14. Christian Klien Austria Jaguar-Cosworth 1min 21.949secs +2.196secs 
15. Giorgio Pantano Italy Jordan-Ford 1min 23.352secs +3.599secs 
16. Nick Heidfeld Germany Jordan-Ford 1min 23.488secs +3.735secs 
17. Gianmaria Bruni Italy Minardi-Cosworth 1min 26.899secs +7.146secs 
18. Zsolt Baumgartner Hungary Minardi-Cosworth 1min 46.299secs +26.546secs 
Giancarlo Fisichella Italy Sauber-Petronas no time 
Kimi Raikkonen Finland McLaren-Mercedes no tim


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## - Q - (Jun 30, 2003)

Wild start... Button got off very cleanly. :thumbup: 

Schumacher/Montoya... Ralfie/Montoya... Coulthard going off... and Sato picking up a few spots... very nice. Interesting start, i have to say. 

And now the procession begins... and Schumi's closing in on Button...


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*Let the yawning begin.* 

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

My (new) Boy Jensen 










keep this up and I'll be changing my signature to BAR F1.com :thumbup:

Shameless plug to my (new) Boy's web site!!

beewang :bigpimp:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

:yawn: 


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## - Q - (Jun 30, 2003)

Maybe at the front, yeah. But the mid-pack battles are pretty entertaining...


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

Can't Stop laughing at the Minardi's pit crew. They didn't realize that their driver had pitted and honking the horn looking for service. uch: :fruit: :sabrina: :thumbup: 

yeah baby!!  

beewang :bigpimp:


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## - Q - (Jun 30, 2003)

Both McLarens still in the race.. and Kimi's still in... :thumbup:


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

Watching the live timing JPM was tracking identical sector times to Button but MS was consistently .1 to .4 better per sector when they were all running clear. Better but still work to do.

Oh, and once again, .. Ralf. :tsk:


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## LarryN (Dec 24, 2001)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> *Let the yawning begin.*
> 
> :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:
> 
> -


:stupid:


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

like him or not, MS is the Master  


Rubens Barrichello is proof that it's more than just the car :dunno:


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## - Q - (Jun 30, 2003)

Agreed.

Overall, not a bad race (ok, maybe a bit of a yawn--i'm a ferrari fan, but it would be nice to see some 1st place challenges on occasion). Mid-pack battles, and Kimi got his first point! 

Button and BAR get a big :thumbup: for upping their performance. Great job to them. McLaren's getting better (at least both cars finished the race), Williams is... well, Williams. (Not that that's a good or a bad thing... btw, anyone catch the post-race press conference? Montoya's made it pretty clear how disappointed he was with the race...)

Was it worth getting up early for? :dunno: But i definitely need to go and see one of these races in person...


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Yes, great race for MS... once again. As much as it bores me to see him win, he does indeed deserve it.

Barrichello... non-factor. Not in the same league. 

Montoya, sour grapes. I also think a little extra fuel was thrown on his fire by finishing third... behind a BAR. For him, there's only 1 place and that's first... so when it doesn't happen, Monty's not going to be a happy camper. 

He also knew he had to get past Michael to have any chance (because he'd be holding him up). He also should know what Michael is capable of when attempting to pass. The push to the grass from Michael was probably not as fair as Montoya would like, but that's got to be half expected. So he can cry, but it's not going to change anything. He didn't do any better when coming off and on the circuit and chopping Ralf in a similar way right after that.

Which brings us to Ralf, once again proving that a good *driver* does not make a good *racer.* Alonso may have been a bit optimistic, but Ralf just cannot race with anyone else. He apparently thinks there's only room for 1 car in any given corner. Send him packing to Jordan. He's a useless sack.

So... I think M. Schumacher should push RB out next year and bring Kimi in as an equal, not a subservient... that ought to provide a little extra motivation, not to mention make things a little more interesting at the top.  

That way, even if it's only a race between two red cars, there will at least be a race.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> like him or not, MS is the Master
> 
> Rubens Barrichello is proof that it's more than just the car :dunno:


Duuuuuhhh! 

But it makes the tinfoil hat brigade very unhappy to realize such facts!


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)




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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

I predict Ralf going to get it for the Alonzo incident. Simply put, you cannot open the door like Ralf did and NOT expect the guy behind to early apex the turn.

And as far as JPM rants...here's another guy who clearly has a distorted view of physics (not to mention double standards vs running Ralf off the track) :thumbdwn:


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Oh and one more. This was one of the worse televised races in a long time. For those who are bored, please don't listen to the commentators who tell you it's passing in the pits.....IT'S NOT PASSING IN THE PITS!!!! It's drivers putting the hammer down when they have to on their in and out laps. Look at Alonso he picked up 3 spots before his last stop!!!!

You can loose spots in the pits but that's NOT how you GAIN spots! :thumbup:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I have to agree that it was a boring race. Monty was very brave in his attempt to pass Michael from outside in the first lap. He needs to stop whining and behaving like a wuss and concentrate himself on his job. 

There is not much that can be said about Ralf. His negotiations with Williams has been put on hold, he has lost his ambition to win. If you think that JPM will be leaving the team at the end of this year, it will be a difficult year for Williams.

As for Rubens, Dave said it all, not in the same league.

Seeing Mclaren's fall to this extent is very sad. I haven't seen them this bad since years. They have the most unreliable engine on the field at the moment (among the top teams, if you still count Mclaren as a top team). I hope they will recover as fast as possible. Kimi is a great racer, IMO. I wouldn't want to see him ruin his career behind the wheel of a Mclaren. 

Anyway, Ferrari seems very strong at the moment. But it was only the 4th race of the season. 

Now, on to Barcelona ! 


PS : Patrick, I thought you were going to watch ice hockey


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> PS : Patrick, I thought you were going to watch ice hockey


I did and I still am! The Swiss are killing France! And in three hours, NHL playoffs.

Oh yeah, I forgot to check: who won the race? :dunno:

:eeps:

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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot to check: who won the race? :dunno:
> 
> :eeps:
> 
> -


It's a secret


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> It's a secret


hint: it's his 4th in a row :eeps: :angel:


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

The title does say SPOILER so we can talk about the race.....

Although the FW26 seemed to have made progress, the result in the race was the same. They don't have the speed in the race that they can achieve in qualifying. Of course, no one but Michael seems to be able to race with the pace that is shown in qualifying. The problem I have with the Ferrari dominance is the Bridgestone one team monopoly. I know Michelin can tailor tires for each of it's teams and they do. Bridgestone can too, but they don't seem to. I find it hard to believe that Michael and Ferrari get that much more of a specilized tire. If Rubens is an indicator, the F2004 isn't such a dominant car. Michael is special. No doubt about it. WRT JPM's comments, it's very hard to conduct an interview like that right after the race. As for Ralf...mot much I can say.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

Motown328 said:


> Alb
> 
> You guys have it all wrong. Schummy takes 2nd to Rubens on the pole. Ralf is 3rd as Montoya has a disappointing qualifier, finishing 6th. Schummy tries to be overly aggressive on Rubens right off the gate causing a slow-down and a near collision. Ralf, in the MOVE OF THE YEAR, coupled with pent-up spite for his brother and everyone else in general, passes Schummy in a heartbeat and shoots through past Rubens causing the cautious/aggressive Ferrari #2 to swerve sharply further blocking Michael and a good other deal of the field as Ralf steams ahead to a 5+ second lead on the first lap alone.
> 
> Montoya finishes 4th.


Well, my scenario was close, but with the drivers mixed up. Hahaha... 

JPM tried to be overly aggressive on Michael which did cause the slowdown and near collision. Button, not Ralf zoomed off to a nice first lap lead (2.7 seconds).

Well, I would have been happy with JPM 3rd and Ralfie 4th. What the hell was Ralf thinking opening the door to Alonso like that only leading him by .4 seconds?!?!?! Was Ralf the ONLY DRIVER IN THE POINTS to be passed on the track (not due to pitting)?!??!?!! Imola is so difficult to pass on and Ralf gets passed on a corner nonetheless in which he had total control of...I can just imagine Alonso's eyes when he saw Ralf swing wide... :yikes:

And I loved the after-race press conference. I loved how when asked about the early confrontations with Button and JPM, Michael completely ignored talking about the JPM incident and concentrated his response solely on Button. Here's a quick recap for those that missed it:

Michael: Thank You. Button did a fantastic job. He deserved pole. I didn't. It was a tough race. It was a very tough race. You had to be careful. You had to stay alert. It was a tough race and you had to be careful while staying alert and I just happened to win. Thank you.

Jensen: Yeah! Yeah! Yeah baby! I got another podium finish and I am so happy that Michael let me lead for a lap and a half. I thought that I might win after leading for what seemed for ages, but after I pitted, it was over. But yeah! yeah! yeah baby! I got second again and will be in more magazine spreads and F1 commentaries and probably get a raise next year! TEA AND SCONES FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HI MOM!!!!!!!!!

Juan: That #$% sonuvab!tch ran me offa the road and just sits here like nothing happened?!?! Well, I tell you what happened, it was cheap and not the way you arra supposed to race. We'll see what the FIA has to say about this...Button did great......yet this guy here thinks he can get away with that cheap move....maybe next time I'll use the champagne bottle at the podium for something else other than squirting. Yeah, Button did great.


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

This race was another affermation of why I no longer wake up early to catch the F1 races.

It was soo damn boring. The only pass for position that I saw was botched by R. Schumacher :tsk: 

I am just bored to death with F1....


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Actually, I tend to disagree. The battle for #1 was pretty boring after the first few laps, but the rest of the field was rather interesting IMO. In particular, the jockeying for position that was going on around #4/#5 was cool to watch.

As for the podium...well, I have to give Button and BAR/Honda MAJOR props for their performance. They're just doing so well right now, and I like seeing teams rising up to challenge the Big Three. My jaw hit the ground when I saw JB pull away at the start like everyone was still waiting for the lights.

Of course, MS caught up with him and eventually won by a comfortable margin. There's a LOT more to Schumi's success than the racing team; he's unquestionably the best driver out there, and has been for quite some time. I don't know enough about F1 history to say this definitively, but he has to be among the very best ever. Amazing.

As for my boy JPM.... :bustingup I loved his comments during the press conference, and then reading what he said in part 2. I think he's right about the FW26 not quite being there, but he's got a lot of work cut out for him if he expects to make a serious run for the championship. MS is on a streak and it's going to take some big mistakes, or some SERIOUS improvements from the competition, before he even has to look in his rearview mirror.

Finally, I was glad to see Kimi being able to complete a race. He's far too good of a driver to be stuck where he is right now, and I'm sure there are a lot of people within Mercedes who are nervous for their jobs.


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## richard (Apr 3, 2002)

Boring. The place might have the best turn names and is beautiful but consistently gives bad racing. What also strikes me is that what little overtaking there is in F1 now usually results in a car being punted off the track. Maybe there is so little close racing the drivers don't know how to handle it anymore.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

I agree with Jetfire. Lots of good racing further back. And much more good racing than th eold days before pits stops and before refueling was allowed.

WRT MS, think abou it, in 198 races, he has won 73, been on the podium for some 120+, and been in te points for about 150 of them. That is like a major league hitter hitting .369 in HOME RUNS, .633 in extra base hits, and .757 overall hitting average.

And that includes the lean years at Ferrari between 1995 and 2000 while they came up to speed.

I also remember the comments of someone who went to Benneton after MS was there, his comment was that it was the WORST handling car he had ever driven. And MS won two championships with that car.

The man is amzaing, the team is amzaing, and that is how things go in racing.

ANd I also like seeing BAR up there, but I sort of wish McLaren was having a better year. I am disappointed in Toyota, they looked to have so much promise after last year. And Jag, seems to be slumping again.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

It's a complex situation. Michael offers a technical package that no one else seems to have. Arguably the best driver of this generation, but an outstanding technical mind as well. He has some weaknesses, but it's the entire package that is so very difficult to overcome. Michael and his multinational team have made Ferrari into the World Champions.

For Imola, I found the comparison of lap by lap times (from AtlasF1) to be interesting. I've attached a comparison of Michael, Jenson and Juan. You can see that except for the time when Michael was holding behind Jenson, he was clearly faster than either of the Michelin cars. Then towards then he slowed to the finish. In fact, except for the first stint, Jenson was only marginally faster than Juan.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

SteveT said:


> It's a complex situation. Michael offers a technical package that no one else seems to have. Arguably the best driver of this generation, but an outstanding technical mind as well. He has some weaknesses, but it's the entire package that is so very difficult to overcome. Michael and his multinational team have made Ferrari into the World Champions.
> 
> For Imola, I found the comparison of lap by lap times (from AtlasF1) to be interesting. I've attached a comparison of Michael, Jenson and Juan. You can see that except for the time when Michael was holding behind Jenson, he was clearly faster than either of the Michelin cars. Then towards then he slowed to the finish. In fact, except for the first stint, Jenson was only marginally faster than Juan.


Interesting.

However, take a look at this chart I found which details Ralf with the podium finishers.

And he wanted to blame it on his spin out with Alonso.... :nono:


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

:rofl:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Motown328 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> However, take a look at this chart I found which details Ralf with the podium finishers.
> 
> And he wanted to blame it on his spin out with Alonso.... :nono:


Well, that explanation won't fly at all. But you have to take traffic into consideration when you look at the charts. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the race, so I really don't know why his laps were so bad.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

berford said:


> Well, that explanation won't fly at all. But you have to take traffic into consideration when you look at the charts. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the race, so I really don't know why his laps were so bad.


 In Motown's case, I think RS was suffering from a case of PShopitis.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Doesn't matter... Ralf's a putz, plain and simple.


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