# I-drive haters



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Is there an advantage to the I-Drive over manual controls? If no then why needlessly complicate the driver controls. 

BMW seems dead set on computer screens controls so get used to them.


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> To me, that is the problem. Do we really need 4 pages to adjust the freaking climate control ? The conventional dials are much faster to use and easier to understand, IMO. (Note, I said dials and not buttons. I like that BMW went back to the dials in the new models)


AMEN Alex!!!

1 Menu on some gimmick Hal 9000 box is too many.

If I just want to adjust my climate controls, which depending on time of year I do a bit, I can push one or two buttons and be done with it. I don't have to pull the car over and play an Atari game to get it to work.

I think my Toyota has simplified it even better than my BMW. To control the temp I can twist a temp knob to the left for cold, the right to get hotter. If I need to override the climate control, a second knob can be easily twisted in order to adjust the fan speed. The only down side is the whole arrangement doesn't look quite as nice as in my BMW. Of course it is a 4x4 SUV, so I don't expect it to be as nice either 

I too am not some joker who can't set the VCR clock. I am in the IT/Communications field with a undergrade in Computer Science/Software Development and by Christmas will have a Masters in Computer Resource Management. The stuff I-Drive comes from is great for the PC and the work environment, but not a car...regardless of the interface/control mechanism!


----------



## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

Alex: Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't been in a bimmer since August so I might remember wrong) but can't you operate the climate control without the I-drive? Hear me out for a second. Let's say you take a car with I-drive and for one second pretend that the I-drive wasn't there. Wouldn't you still be able to control it from the dash anyway? I thought the climate menu on the I-drive is just extra that you didn't have before. :eeps: 
Look at the attached file, what can you not control from the main dashboard itself? 

Personally, I think that there is a clear advantage to the I-drive over manual controls. THe whole idea is that it conserves space. I would rather have an I-drive rather than a dashboard that looks like the C class with 50 buttons. If you think that the reliability is a problem, that's also another story, but a very valid one. I'm only talking about its complexity.


----------



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Warot, the climate control dials in the dash are already enough and efficient. This way they could've omitted the climate menu in the I-Drive. One less menu is a good thing, IMO.

I'd prefer to use the I-Drive only for the Navigation and the Radio/CD. The rest could've been done with buttons or dials on the dash.


----------



## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

I played with idrive in the 7er and found it complicated but then I played with it in a 530i and thought it was pretty cool. 

One thing I loved about the idrive is how you don't have to lean forward to change a control on the dash, it fits perfectly in your hand while resting it on the armrest ... to me this is more driver oriented :dunno: 

No doubt it's the future and I look forward to having it one day.


----------



## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Warot, the climate control dials in the dash are already enough and efficient. *This way they could've omitted the climate menu in the I-Drive.* One less menu is a good thing, IMO.
> 
> I'd prefer to use the I-Drive only for the Navigation and the Radio/CD. The rest could've been done with buttons or dials on the dash.


IMO, the mere fact that the *full* climate control functions are still in buttons and knobs in the dash in every and each BMW car equipped with iDrive confirm to me that the idea behind this single iDrive knob is just a bad implementation of a solution that they did not know the question. It just defeats the purpose of iDrive by saying that not all the buttons can be replaced, but then _includes_ the same functions again in the damn screen... 

olmy said it perfectly: the only, real solution that BMW could have come up with to reduce the proliferation of buttons in the dash should have been HUD with voice recognition. No ugly hump, going thru menus while not paying attention to the road... just driving. I bet that it should have been cheaper, more efficient and even better integrated to the driver centric dash that BMW's used to have and no longer can do because the iDrive...

What else should have defined _the Ultimate Driving Machine?_ Certaintly not the iDrive crap.


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Warot said:


> Let's say you take a car with I-drive and for one second pretend that the I-drive wasn't there. Wouldn't you still be able to control it from the dash anyway? I thought the climate menu on the I-drive is just extra that you didn't have before. :eeps:
> Look at the attached file, what can you not control from the main dashboard itself?


So you need I-Drive why? 



> Personally, I think that there is a clear advantage to the I-drive over manual controls. THe whole idea is that it conserves space. I would rather have an I-drive rather than a dashboard that looks like the C class with 50 buttons.


Hmmm...50 buttons.... :str8pimpi



> If you think that the reliability is a problem, that's also another story, but a very valid one.


I think this will be huge. It could tank the BMW used car market. I don't mind runing my car long beyond any service agreement or warenty. However, with all the gizmo's who is going to be able to afford to mess with it 8~10 years down the road. Not many I can think of...


----------



## Warot (Aug 3, 2004)

hahaha, so I guess you all know that I'm not the biggest fan of the C...

But the thing is (man, I feel like I'm just saying this thing over and over again... really hard to explain everything online) that the FULL climate control can be used from the dash, correct... so pretty much exactly same as E46... you got your temp, power etc. So no one is complaining about that right? Good (so no you don't need the I-drive... BUT you have the ability to change some settings to your covenience)

On the I-drive, one of the main purpose (that I remember) is to control the air distribution when the Auto mode is used. Meaning, when you press Auto, how much air goes to the windscreen and how much to your feet. I don't believe you could do that on the E46... right? SO here, we have an extra feature, which is supposed to be convenient and supposed to make you more comfortable while you drive, yet people are totally rejecting it. 

I mean, seriously, a big majority of the features on the I-drive is not even supposed to be changed "everytime you get in the car"... just look at it as if it's for customizing your car, and not to distract you from the Ultimate Driving Machine.

I agree with Alex that they should have their seperate sound system instruments, but I still believe that the I-drive is still ok. The navigation system is definitely better on the I-drive rather than on the regular one on the E46 (the big metallic knob beats the small one on the 46 any day)

Am I being clear about what I'm saying? NOTE: I-drive gives you more options to customise your car compared to the E46! E46 cars cannot be customized the way E90 without programming... yes sir :rofl: 

By the way, once the HUD and the voice activated controls become more accessible, I guarantee you that people are going to look at the old dashboard like this:  "Now how to I eject the casette player?"


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

So why don't we all just get the automatic transmission cuz it's so much simpler.


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Warot;

I'm glad you enjoy the I-Drive, and more power to you. You seem to understand it pretty well. 

I guess the big thing for me other than it being a really expensive single point of failure is that it does things, that many people don't think of or really bother with. My E46 does a very good job of moving air around the cockpit of the car. If it doesn't perform the way I like, within one button push or so, I have it where I want it.

As mentioned before...it seems to be answering questions that people weren't asking in the first place. To me that just adds uneeded complexity to cars when BMW seems to be having a hard enough time with the reliability at the current level complexity.

Personnally I REALLY don't need all that stuff to enjoy a BMW. Make it fast, comfortable, and handle like BMW's of yore with a effecient, simple, ergonomic interior and you have a winner.


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

I dont have as much of a problem with the concept of idrive, putting all the controls under a menu driven interface. For me its the implementation; when I see a rotary dial, I expect to rotate it. I dont expect to push it in different directions. Can you think of any other place where a dial is used for something other than rotating?


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> I dont have as much of a problem with the concept of idrive, putting all the controls under a menu driven interface. For me its the implementation; when I see a rotary dial, I expect to rotate it. I dont expect to push it in different directions. Can you think of any other place where a dial is used for something other than rotating?


Yes. You can press the volume control dial to turn the radio on and off.

If you can't tell already, im an I-Drive supporter


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

phatchunk99 said:


> Yes. You can press the volume control dial to turn the radio on and off.
> 
> If you can't tell already, im an I-Drive supporter


Im not talking about pushing the dial down as a click, Im talking about pushing the dial forward backwards sideways like a joystick. Its like giving people a joystick controller and asking them to twist it instead of using it normally


----------



## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

olmy said:


> It's been said before and I'll say it again, iDrive is an answer to a question no one has asked. Others have mentioned that technology is good, but not in this instance; I tend to agree. The HVAC (and other) controls should not be designed to detract from the main purpose of having a car: driving it. If BMW must advance the technological state of the art, why not add HUD (a system designed to keep your eyes on the road, not scrolling through some not-right-for-the-application computer interface)?


 :stupid: :clap:


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

Desertnate said:


> Warot;
> 
> I'm glad you enjoy the I-Drive, and more power to you. You seem to understand it pretty well.
> 
> ...


Answering questions that people weren't asking in the first place is what distinguishes BMW from the rest of the automobile industry. Did we ask for the passenger side mirror to tilt down while reversing the car? No. Did we ask them to spend time to come up with a noise-reducing side mirror design? No. But clearly these are conveniences any BMW driver like to benefit from.

As Warot stressed, iDrive only adds more options than you have now with your E46 or whatever. So now every time you want to change your memory setting, etc, you don't have to schedule an appointment with your stealer that's 2 weeks away and expect to pay $100 for a 10 minute job. You can do it yourself with the iDrive!


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> Im not talking about pushing the dial down as a click, Im talking about pushing the dial forward backwards sideways like a joystick. Its like giving people a joystick controller and asking them to twist it instead of using it normally


Yes, I agree that we're not used to the concept of pushing the dial in different directions unless you're used to the Xbox controllers (im not sure if the playstation controller does the same). But it's all about learning new things. I never expected my VCR remote to control my TV. But it does and I like the convenience. Technology is going to advance whether you like it or not. I bet a few years down the road, every other car is going to have something similiar to the iDrive system, and everyone is going to love it just like they love their universal remote control. BMW is just taking the brunt of the complaints for being the leader.

However, I do realize that everyone has his own habbits. Some people like to have 10 remote controlls right in front of them; my mother still likes to do the dishes the old fashioned way. She's thinking about starting a Mother-Against-Dishwasher, or MAD, forum. Anyone interested?


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

phatchunk99 said:


> Yes, I agree that we're not used to the concept of pushing the dial in different directions unless you're used to the Xbox controllers...


I own an xbox and Im pretty sure the controller doesn't have a dial on it. It has joysticks, and you use them as joysticks should be


phatchunk99 said:


> I bet a few years down the road, every other car is going to have something similiar to the iDrive system, and everyone is going to love it just like they love their universal remote control. BMW is just taking the brunt of the complaints for being the leader.


A few years down the road...

I-drive nowI-drive future







 


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

phatchunk99 said:


> Answering questions that people weren't asking in the first place is what distinguishes BMW from the rest of the automobile industry. Did we ask for the passenger side mirror to tilt down while reversing the car? No. Did we ask them to spend time to come up with a noise-reducing side mirror design? No. But clearly these are conveniences any BMW driver like to benefit from.
> 
> As Warot stressed, iDrive only adds more options than you have now with your E46 or whatever. So now every time you want to change your memory setting, etc, you don't have to schedule an appointment with your stealer that's 2 weeks away and expect to pay $100 for a 10 minute job. You can do it yourself with the iDrive!


I still don't see the need, but then again I am a simple man who has a complex enough life that when I get into my performance sedan, I want a simple effecient ergonomic cocpit with which to control everything with the touch of a button. No menus, no icons, no pictures...just push the button and go.

I haven't had to change a memory setting on my car since I picked it up in Jan '00

I fell in love with BMWs like the E30 (and its predicessor), E36, E46 and E39. They were great machines with the best cocpits I had ever seen and the cars drove like nothing on the road. The "new generation" may still drive well, but all of the doo-dads (not to mention the styling) are a stepping away from what caused me to fall in love in the first place. Its almost like having to break up with a high-school sweet heart after dating for 10 years because you just found out that she is an activist for some nut job save-the-goats organization who is trying to take over the world by releasing thousands of genetically mutated goats on the worlds largest cities designed to eat everything in sight.


----------



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Warot said:


> What is so bad about the I-Drive?


It's a dumb idea. I'm not interested in playing video games while driving. I know how to turn on the A/C and change the temperature. It's silly to weed through menus when I can push one button and I KNOW where it is. Software is a poor replacement for hardware.


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> I own an xbox and Im pretty sure the controller doesn't have a dial on it. It has joysticks, and you use them as joysticks should be


You're right it doesn't have a dial, but you can push it in eight different directions and you can also press the button.. But it's besides the point. I'm talking about learning new things.



bluetree211 said:


> A few years down the road...
> 
> I-drive nowI-drive future
> 
> ...


Yes, to your dismay, that might actually be the future iDrive. You learned well from Tom Cruise's movie Minority Report. You can actually read the newspaper while the computer drives you to work. Scary, ain't it?


----------



## jeffh325 (Mar 15, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> A few years down the road...
> 
> I-drive nowI-drive future
> 
> ...


You forgot to remove the steering wheel.


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

Desertnate said:


> Its almost like having to break up with a high-school sweet heart after dating for 10 years because you just found out that she is an activist for some nut job save-the-goats organization who is trying to take over the world by releasing thousands of genetically mutated goats on the worlds largest cities designed to eat everything in sight.


No offense to you or your wife (if you're married), but I don't think I can agree with your analogy. Isn't it more like ditching your wife who's already perfect to you and going after a babe on the street who's had 100 plastic surgeries?


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

phatchunk99 said:


> No offense to you or your wife (if you're married), but I don't think I can agree with your analogy. Isn't it more like ditching your wife who's already perfect to you and going after a babe on the street who's had 100 plastic surgeries?


 :rofl:

No offence taken...

You're right. My wife (and my E46) are perfect just as they are and even over time continue to fullfill my every desire perfectly (I have been married almost as long as I have had the car).

Why on earth would I ditch either for something which is overloaded with unnessicary features I didn't ask for, nor have any need for, which do nothing but lessen/hinder an amazing driving experience. (How is that for some double meanings)

My wife is a keeper for life...it's beginning to look like my E46 is too :eeps:


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

ObD said:


> It's a dumb idea. I'm not interested in playing video games while driving. I know how to turn on the A/C and change the temperature. It's silly to weed through menus when I can push one button and I KNOW where it is. Software is a poor replacement for hardware.


OMFG,



Warot said:


> the FULL climate control can be used from the dash.


Warot, you might as well just give up.

I'm gonna go shoot myself.


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

if you love idrive, I think "airliner pilot" is probably not the career choice for you


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

bluetree211 said:


> if you love idrive, I think "airliner pilot" is probably not the career choice for you


 :rofl:

I can see it now..."I-Drive in the new Boeing 7XX, all you critical systems can be found 4 layers deep in their own menues" :eeps:

:angel:


----------



## Ace (Apr 9, 2004)

warot,

as you have already stated the full climate control can be operated from the dash, and from the interior photos you can see the control panel....also you can see the dvd player in the dash with a number of smaller buttons underneath it.....so then i ask you what is the point of the i-drive system anyways? it hasn't really cleaned up the dash area at all....i understand that it is cleaner looking that the c-class (of which i am not a fan either), but the c-class does not compare to the e46 interior which is already clean....and i personally don't like the look of the knob sitting there, and also don't like the big screen as well. and i believe that the reason that the driver sweep has been removed in the e90 is to accomodate passengers in the car, so that they can see the screen as well..


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> if you love idrive, I think "airliner pilot" is probably not the career choice for you


You're telling me you'd rather have a dashboard cluttered like that. Who are you gonna hire as your co-pilot by the way?


----------



## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

phatchunk99 said:


> You're telling me you'd rather have a dashboard cluttered like that. Who are you gonna hire as your co-pilot by the way?


It's not about apperence but functionality. Most cockpits are studied for ergonomics so the most important things are closer and in the field of vision, yet the lesser stuff is farther away and out of sight. Everything is very purposefully positioned.

"Clutter" in that case is subjective. That crew can see EVERY system on that plane and do thousands of tasks at the push of a button/flip of a switch. A good pilot can find most of them by feel without taking his eyes off the displays or looking inside the plane. Even the MFD's are surrouded by buttons...

You don't have to scroll though layers of menues to controll anything. It's all there layed out for you.

If a car is so complex that you have to bury functions behind a menue driven computer interface, maybe you should re-think the complexity of the car.


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

phatchunk99 said:


> You're telling me you'd rather have a dashboard cluttered like that. Who are you gonna hire as your co-pilot by the way?


I dont think you are getting it; I welcome the idea of idrive, its just the execution is terrible. Its like buying a computer from dell or hp and finding out they have switched to an alphabetic keyboard instead of the qwerty layout. You could get used to it after lots of practice, but why try to change something that works fine now?


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> I dont think you are getting it; I welcome the idea of idrive, its just the execution is terrible. Its like buying a computer from dell or hp and finding out they have switched to an alphabetic keyboard instead of the qwerty layout. You could get used to it after lots of practice, but why try to change something that works fine now?


You can still directly control everything you have control over now. iDrive only gives you more options if you're a picky person, like controlling the amount of airflow out of each vent, which is something you DON'T have control over in your E46. BMW doesn't see that option as critical as every switch in the cockpit, and neither do I. I'd rather have it buried in the menu than cluterting the dashboard, which is something we are all against.


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

phatchunk99 said:


> You can still directly control everything you have control over now. iDrive only gives you more options if you're a picky person, like controlling the amount of airflow out of each vent, which is something you DON'T have control over in your E46. BMW doesn't see that option as critical as every switch in the cockpit, and neither do I. I'd rather have it buried in the menu than cluterting the dashboard, which is something we are all against.


my human factors professor had a phrase he liked to use during class: "creeping featurism" which means "a systematic tendency to load more chrome and features onto systems at the expense of whatever elegance they may have possessed when originally designed"
For example, how important is it to you that each air vent has its own airflow control? Since the cabin isn't partitioned, all the air mixes together anyhow.... sort of like having a smoking and non-smoking section in a restaurant. :dunno:


----------



## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

phatchunk99 said:


> You can still directly control everything you have control over now. iDrive only gives you more options if you're a picky person, like controlling the amount of airflow out of each vent, which is something you DON'T have control over in your E46. BMW doesn't see that option as critical as every switch in the cockpit, and neither do I. I'd rather have it buried in the menu than cluterting the dashboard, which is something we are all against.


It sounds like all the major controls are still on the console. So why put the iDrive at such a 'convenient' location?


----------



## vehigal (Oct 30, 2004)

*I-drive is just the beginning*

"In the future, functional software will be sold as a separate stand alone product not necessarily tied to a particular electronic control unit or ECU.

VW, Bosch, Continental Teves, BMW, DaimlerChrysler and Siemens VDO Automotive have recently announced the AUTOSAR partnership to jointly develop standard software architecture. While all the founding partners are German companies, they fully intend to open up the partnership to the international automotive electronics community." $$$$$$

Read the rest here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_10_183/ai_109505539


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> my human factors professor had a phrase he liked to use during class: "creeping featurism" which means "a systematic tendency to load more chrome and features onto systems at the expense of whatever elegance they may have possessed when originally designed"
> For example, how important is it to you that each air vent has its own airflow control? Since the cabin isn't partitioned, all the air mixes together anyhow.... sort of like having a smoking and non-smoking section in a restaurant. :dunno:


It's important if you want to efficiently adjust the cabin temperature. Warm air rises, and cold air sinks. In the winter, I'd want more warm air coming from the footwell. To some people, that's not important. And to me, duo-zone AC is not important. It's all a matter of personal preference. It's an option after all. Don't opt for the iDrive if you don't like it. I couldn't think of a more elegant way to put together all the features like the iDrive.


----------



## Pterous (Aug 17, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> my human factors professor had a phrase he liked to use during class: "creeping featurism" which means "a systematic tendency to load more chrome and features onto systems at the expense of whatever elegance they may have possessed when originally designed"
> For example, how important is it to you that each air vent has its own airflow control? Since the cabin isn't partitioned, all the air mixes together anyhow.... sort of like having a smoking and non-smoking section in a restaurant. :dunno:


I like that feature, especially in the winter, when I take off my coat, but not my boots. Less heat in the leg area, more heat at the top. It all depends how picky you are... I'd rather have more options than less.


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

Pterous said:


> Less heat in the leg area, more heat at the top.


You're not helping, Pterous. :rofl: But you've proved my point. People have their own preferences, even though they might not make sense to other people. With iDrive, you'll have the option to personalize your car.


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

phatchunk99 said:


> ...like controlling the amount of airflow out of each vent, which is something you DON'T have control over in your E46...


This quote led me to believe you weren't talking about footwell/body vents, since I DO have control over that in my E46. I was talking about left/right vents (E36 had dual zone, E46 went back to single zone)


phatchunk99 said:


> It's important if you want to efficiently adjust the cabin temperature. Warm air rises, and cold air sinks. In the winter, I'd want more warm air coming from the footwell. To some people, that's not important. And to me, duo-zone AC is not important. It's all a matter of personal preference. It's an option after all. Don't opt for the iDrive if you don't like it. I couldn't think of a more elegant way to put together all the features like the iDrive.


I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but it still doesn't address the usability problem with the idrive interface. The "i" in idrive is supposed to stand for "intuitive" right? Well why are so many people having problems with it? Stop pretending it isn't a problem because you want change for change's sake


----------



## phatchunk99 (Apr 22, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> This quote led me to believe you weren't talking about footwell/body vents, since I DO have control over that in my E46. I was talking about left/right vents (E36 had dual zone, E46 went back to single zone)


In your E46, you can either turn on and off the footwell/body vents (I'm not talking about adjusting the individual body vents) or let the auto function take over. But with iDrive, you can manually adjust the mount of air coming out of the footwell/body vents as I understand.

You're never gonna agree with me, and I'm never gonna agree with you. I'm going back to work. My work productivity is zero today.

PS: Driving 80mph at night while taking pictures of the dashboard is more dangerous than using the iDrive system, I think.


----------



## bluetree211 (Apr 19, 2004)

phatchunk99 said:


> You're never gonna agree with me, and I'm never gonna agree with you. I'm going back to work. My work productivity is zero today.


As Diana Ross once sang, "No one gets the prize"


phatchunk99 said:


> PS: Driving 80mph at night while taking pictures of the dashboard is more dangerous than using the iDrive system, I think.


You dont sound very sure of your conviction there


----------



## jeffh325 (Mar 15, 2004)

bluetree211 said:


> I dont think you are getting it; I welcome the idea of idrive, its just the execution is terrible. Its like buying a computer from dell or hp and finding out they have switched to an alphabetic keyboard instead of the qwerty layout. You could get used to it after lots of practice, but why try to change something that works fine now?


No, it's more like replacing a QWERTY keyboard with that click thing that Steven Hawkings uses to to speak.

"Wow!!! You can type an entire document with just ONE BUTTON?!!!"


----------

