# Modifying the 3.0 all aluminum diesel



## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Bodacious said:


> OK, All Foreign just called back and the engine they just received is and aluminum block. It was pulled from a 2011 335d.
> 
> I'm keeping my fingers crossed on the second one.


Good luck. Hope they didn't source a N54/N55. fwiw here is some older literature on the M57. look at pg 17

Google pdf. Diesel Engines M57/M67 Common Rail - Kaross-chip.lv


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## lpcapital (Mar 1, 2007)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> I used to think that the M57 was Alusil but it's apparently iron. It has been awhile. Maybe your supplier sourced an euro spec N57 with sequential turbos (335d F30)


It used to be a CGI block, but starting in 2005 it became aluminum block and the M57 used in the US version of the 35d is a derivation of that block so it's aluminum: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1epIteFE7i-c2IybHVDX0l2bVk/view?usp=sharing (page 39)

While ROW got the N57 and ZF-8HP with the LCI of both E70 & E90, the US continued to have the combination M57 + ZF-6HP until production of both models ended.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

lpcapital said:


> It used to be a CGI block, starting in 2005 it became aluminum block and the M57 used in the US version of the 35d is a derivation of that block so it's aluminum: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1epIteFE7i-c2IybHVDX0l2bVk/view?usp=sharing (page 39)
> 
> While ROW got the N57 and ZF-8HP with the LCI of both E70 & E90, the US continued to have the combination M57 + ZF-6HP until production of both models ended.


BINGO!. I was looking for that document but just couldn't find it. I thought I knew it was an Alusil block. At least I had the engine code correct. The OP should read this doc.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Could I get one of you fellas to translate the info for me????


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## lpcapital (Mar 1, 2007)

Bodacious said:


> Could I get one of you fellas to translate the info for me????


Translate what? [I'm really not understanding, not being a jerk]


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

lol, you have to remember you are talking to 'hill folk' here. He11, I couldn't spell internet yesterday, look at me now.



> While ROW got the N57 and ZF-8HP with the LCI of both E70 & E90, the US continued to have the combination M57 + ZF-6HP until production of both models ended.


...break it down for me lpcapital.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Alright BMWTurboDzl, I just googled 'alusil' 'cause I was thinking this must be some older fella who doesn't want to type out the word aluminum and is having a good laugh about a past experience with your lady friends.

Turns out, alusil is for real and I hope the N57 is not using the technology. I'm pretty sure it has hardened steel sleeves for the cylinders and not some oil filled silicon alloy.

I didn't see the N57 listed on the wik site so if you are an older fella, please refrain from the inappropriate info. lol


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## lpcapital (Mar 1, 2007)

Bodacious said:


> lol, you have to remember you are talking to 'hill folk' here. He11, I couldn't spell internet yesterday, look at me now.
> 
> ...break it down for me lpcapital.


Ah... I thought you wanted me to translate the whole BMW paper to hillbillese...

ROW is Rest of the World: BMW brakes down the world in two major models: US and European, US models are sold in US and Canada, while European models are sold elsewhere (with some country specific differences obliviously).

LCI is "Life Cycle Impulse" which is basically BMW changing bumpers, powertrains, lights and a couple of other knick-knack in between major car releases.

E90 is the designation of the 3 series sedan produced for model year 2006 to 2011, E70 is the designation of the X5 SAV (which is BMWese for SUV... They don't think their care has any Utility, it's more Active...) for model years 2007 - 2013. The LCI for the E70 was done with MY (model year) 2011: the 3.0si was replaced by the 35i, the 4.8i was replaced by the 50i. The older engine were naturally aspirated 6 and 8 cylinder mated with 6 speed, the new are turbocharged 6 and 8 cylinder mated with 8 speed. Both 6 speed and 8 speed were made by ZF Friedrichshafen. SImilar went on with the E90, albeit other than the M it was never equipped with a V8.

The point is that while the diesel versions of the E90 and E70 that were sold outside the US received a new engine (the N57) and a new transmission (the 8 speed ZF-8HP) as part of the LCI, the US only got lights, bumpers, and knick-knack but kept the pre-LCI powertrain.

The introduction of the N57 in the US only happened with the release of the new X5 (F15), 5 series (F10) and 7 series. The 3 series F30 in the US is not available with the N57 6 cylinder 3L, but only comes with the N47 which is a 4 cylinder 2L.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

lol, thanks.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

As I read back to today's post, I learned that I need to read the information more clearly.

I realize now that BMWTurboDzl was giving me good info and from the research I had done, all I knew was that the M57 was an iron block. BMWTurboDzl wasn't disputing that the engine wasn't aluminum, just that it was an M57 and not an N57. 

I guess for what I'm doing, either one will work just fine. Although, I have a distinct feeling the N57 is the only engine that received the joining sleeves from the head to the mains. I have not found any hard info on this fact to date.

I'll be happy just knowing I have two of the most advanced diesel engines (for automotive applications) know to man.

Stay with me and don't loose hope. I am looking at a stand alone ECM from a company call NIRA. It is pricy, but, I should be able to tie into the existing BMW engine harness and make the thing run. I'm going to start here and get it running dependably. Then, with my laptop (I suppose) I'm gonna start leaning on it.

Thanks again for the help so far and please keep it coming. I'll try my best to become a BMW gentleman. At least on this forum. lol


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

If you look closely at this attachment you can make out sleeves in the M57.

http://www.bmwheaven.com/index.php/...esel/6-cylinder/m57?page=2&catpage=1#category


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Thanks BMWTurboDzl. I have to admit I looked very close and couldn't see the threaded sleeves.

Take a look at the link. Take a look at the third cut-away picture. You can clearly see the threaded sleeves that have a circular piece in the middle.

http://www.nosmokenopoke.com/2012/08/when-one-turbo-just-wont-do/


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

very similar. The sleeves are probably part if the mold when the block is being cast. In any case they're there.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

If you got an M57 that was sold in a US car or suv, its not an iron block. It should still be good for 500 hp and probably something like 700 lb ft (at the crank) based on it being a racing setup and based on some of the dyno information from some guys that are already tuned having broken the 400 hp and 600 lb ft barriers at the crank with street tunes.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

> In any case they're there


I was sorta thinking the same thing, but, I couldn't find any positive proof. I guess I'll figure it out if I have to pull anything apart.

Thanks for the reply Hooper. Your info is very good to know.

I bought a 3-speed lenco transmission (CS2) to run behind the BMW. I am thinking of running a triple disc 8" clutch. I know a 10" will hold, but, I want to stick to the ultimate weight savings.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Ok, I got the little girls in the garage. Tore all the unnecessary parts off one of them. I'm on the hunt for a stand alone engine controller, a custom bell housing, the injectors are coming out for enhancement, and it looks like I may have to fab up a complete cam cover.

Have a look at the build thread in the first post for pics. 

Again, any and all help is appreciated.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

I had a PM about purchasing some of the parts off the engines that I'm not going to use. So, I thought I'd let everyone know if you need something, let me know. Other than the compound/twin turbo set up with manifold (I have two of them complete to sell), if you need something, let me know and you can have it just pay shipping.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Very exciting!!!


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Bodacious said:


> I had a PM about purchasing some of the parts off the engines that I'm not going to use. So, I thought I'd let everyone know if you need something, let me know. Other than the compound/twin turbo set up with manifold (I have two of them complete to sell), if you need something, let me know and you can have it just pay shipping.


PM sent about parts.


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## YozhDzl (Mar 5, 2014)

There was a guy looking for an air box. Can't find the thread now though. May be on another forum.
Although yours may have not come with it.


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## YozhDzl (Mar 5, 2014)

Bodacious said:


> I had a PM about purchasing some of the parts off the engines that I'm not going to use. So, I thought I'd let everyone know if you need something, let me know. Other than the compound/twin turbo set up with manifold (I have two of them complete to sell), if you need something, let me know and you can have it just pay shipping.


PM sent. Thank you.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

*pics of engines*

I thought it best I post a few pics of the engines. Lots of folks needing stuff the engines didn't come with.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Hello All,

I need more BMW expertise. I am in conversations with a stand alone controller manufacturer and this controller will only work with the solenoid style injectors. Would any of you all know what years the solenoid injectors came in and whether or not the solenoid injectors will drop in place of the Piezo??

Thanks,

Arch


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## nuclearbeef (Dec 19, 2012)

Curious as to what the scale says in the picture.

Also, if you don't mind; what did you have to give for the pair?


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

> Curious as to what the scale says in the picture.


435.1lbs



> Also, if you don't mind; what did you have to give for the pair?


2 much!!


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Thought I'd drop in and give an update. I have been in contact with three stand alone ECM companies. Adaptronic, Skynam, and NIRA.

Adaptronic can not control the Piezo injector. I would have to switch to Solenoid style injectors. This is not out of the question but I'd have to locate a set and make sure they will fit in my head. Anyone on here have an old one they could send me for fitment purposes. I'll send it back when I'm done. $no quote yet.

Skynam has been working with me. They also have an existing base map for the solenoid injector and are trying to figure a way to drive the piezo. $ no quote yet.

NIRA is ready to go. $3,800 + shipping.

What I would truly like to do is mechanically inject the engine. It has been done before. I found a yellow BMW wagon with a mechanically injected M-57 on the internet. I've been told if is from Finland and I done my best using google translate to find out all the info I could on it. Unfortunately, no info is available on how they drove the Bosch A pump.

I have one of the engines tore completely down now. I have been studying the Mercedes OM606 engine and its drive chain. The OM606 has the Bosch A pump and similar drive chain. Honestly, if Mercedes had offered an aluminum block, this is the route I would have gone. Regardless, I have what I have and need to move forward. At this point, it may be possible to utilize a portion of the OM606 drive chain and sprockets. This may deem the factory oil pump useless in which case an aftermarket dry sump oil system will have to be used. Ultimately, switching to mechanical injection will cost more. It sure would be cool and simple at least from my knowledge.

Edit: Also to the folks who requested parts. Please bear with me. I'll get your stuff boxed up and a shipping cost for you in the future. I have not forgotten.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Bodacious said:


> Thought I'd drop in and give an update. I have been in contact with three stand alone ECM companies. Adaptronic, Skynam, and NIRA.
> 
> Adaptronic can not control the Piezo injector. I would have to switch to Solenoid style injectors. This is not out of the question but I'd have to locate a set and make sure they will fit in my head. Anyone on here have an old one they could send me for fitment purposes. I'll send it back when I'm done. $no quote yet.
> 
> ...


Yea I was reading your thread last night. I would think that you'd rather keep the piezo's because of the higher pulse rate over solenoid (7/sec vs 5/sec).


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Bodacious said:


> ...
> Adaptronic can not control the Piezo injector. I would have to switch to Solenoid style injectors. This is not out of the question but I'd have to locate a set and make sure they will fit in my head...


I think you're on the right track looking to Europe. I suspect that the M57 engines they sold there up until the N57 replaced it were solenoid injectors - you might check realoem.com. The M57 probably had solenoid up through the T1 designation, which ended production in the '08/09 timeframe (although T2 with piezo started in '05 - ware the overlap).

Check the BluePerformance training document for designations, history, etc.


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

Even if you pulled off the mechanical conversion, which is a tall order, it would end up being alot of time and effort to lose power. The efficiency and power hit from DOWNgrading the fuel system would never be worth it, in my mind.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

I hadn't heard from Bodacious in a little while. I thought I'd kick this back up to the top. I read many many pages of his Dodge truck build (link way up above in this thread). He is a serious builder so it is likely he is flat too busy to come here and tell us where he is at with the M57 work.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Hello all. Still here.

I'm in the process of hopefully getting a clutch set up from RAM. Right now, it looks like the dual 8" should hold all the power this thing will make.

I have to send the stock flexplate to them to see if they can extract the starter ring and install it on the new aluminum flywheel. Once this is established, I will be hauling the engine to Browell Bell housings to get a custom aluminum can constructed to bolt up the lenco trans.

I'm still researching the mechanical injection installation. My pump guy is sending up a pump that he knows his way around. It is an A pump, so he says. I never doubt this fella as he has always been able to deliver the fuel on several of our projects.

Skynam sent a quote for their custom built controller and it is priced about even with the NIRA. At this point, I still have not decided which way to go on the fuel delivery. 

When I pulled the cam cover off, I discovered the injector hold down studs also hold down pressure on the intake runners where they change from composite to aluminum. Additionally, the whole composite cam cover is held down with rubber washers. It is now obvious that a new cam cover will have to be fab'd in order to achieve a good leak fee seal on the intake side. Once a decision is made on the fuel delivery, I'll get going on the fab work.

I ordered some stainless plate to cut the exhaust flanges and begin fabbing up the exhaust header.

I'll be bringing in the other engine for parts stripping possibly next week so I'll be able to get some parts out to the folks who have requested them.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

I have finally reached the point of no return on mechanically injecting the engine. After much research and discussions with folks who know a lot more about diesel power than me, it looks like the fuel delivery system will have to deliver up to 600cc's in order to produce the power I am after. Once this was realized the decision was easy to go mechanical injection. Not only will it be less expensive, it will have a certain cool factor and I will at least be able to quickly diagnose potential problems.

We have to take the engine with the crank installed to Browell to let them get measurements for the bell housing.

Once this is done, the crank is going to have to come out and the snout will have to be machined to accept the Mercedes Benz drive sprocket. I'm pretty certain the timing cover will have to be modified to make room for the larger driven sprocket on the pump. I am looking at other options, but, this is the direction that looks most promising.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Thats disappointing, I was really looking forward to your solution on the computerized side. Im sure this is the best route for your use though, a little bit of driveability and efficiency lost but a lot more simplicity gained for what it seems like you plan to do.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Hey Hooper,

The solution on the computerized side is the NIRA stand alone controller. This $4,200 purchase would net a running engine. You could have the injectors extrude honed ($$??) and have the NIRA max out the CP4.2 and this might net 400HP. 

At this point, suppose you could hypothetically drain rail pressure with the max tune, an addition of another sort of high pressure pump is necessary or a modified CP4.2 (+/-$2800). I also considered mounting a CP3 from the cummins engine along with the cummins injectors. In the end, you come right back around to whether or not the single drive chain will withstand the load???

The HP goals can eventually be reached with the electronic set up. However, as you can see, the costs ramp up quite quickly.

I have been doing more research on the double drive chain and I thought I'd mention what I've found.

I've been over on BMWfans.info looking at pretty much all the drive chain options. I wish BMW had fueled the M57 in 1999 the same way they fueled the M47. I'm trying to figure out, at this point, whether or not the timing cover and associated parts will interchange. The M47 was mechanically injected and has the double drive chain. I may end up having to purchase used M47 just to see if things will fit??


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Hey all, I am in need of some assistance.

I've been googleing for an hour or so looking for a place to purchase the crank and pump sprockets and chain for the 1998 M47 engine. I don't think this engine was ever offered in the US. Does anyone know of a good site where I can pick the parts and order with credit card??

Thanks


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

One of our members made a site that checks a bunch of US parts places for BMW parts based on part numbers. Have you tried that?

Tim


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

try searching "uk bmw parts". I dont know anything about any of those suppliers, but it looks like all places in the UK and as such should carry what you need and there are several so you can price shop. Im sure you could try the same with searches like bmw parts .de, .fr, etc. but personally I would stick with the ones that speak the same language I do (mostly)


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

Have you tried penskeparts?


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Ok, thanks fellas. I'm on a site right now called www.estore-central.com. Anyone ever ordered from them??


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

> Have you tried penskeparts?


Just did. They have no parts for the M47.

Thanks anyways


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Thought I'd post this image up for Nadir. I had to use the band saw and 4 1/2" grinder to get the rack travel plug to clear. The timing cover has a blank where I cut on the engine so no customized gaskets will be required. The receiving hole for the injection pump will have to be milled out to accept the larger pump hub. Once I find a shop with a large enough mill to complete this job, I will officially mount the pump.


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

With minimal modification, that pump would flow enough fuel to make close to 1,000 hp in an engine double the M57's displacement.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

I pulled the rods and pistons out today. I am sending the pistons to a fellow CompD member in Las Vegas to have the bowls opened up.

For those who don't know and are curious, in order to get more RPM from a mechanical engine, the timing has to be advanced. We ran 30 degrees in our 5.9 12valve until I pulled the head off for a gasket issue and realized the injectors were spraying partially out of the bowl. We were using the marine piston which has a larger bowl, but, it turns out these either have to be cut or aftermarket pistons purchased to allow for this much timing.

So, in order to keep this from happening, the bowls are enlarged. Additionally, compression is taken away which will result in a little larger compressed volume.

We were able to make good power to 6,000rpms with the cummins at 30 degrees. I plan to turn this engine to 7000rpms so it may require more timing.

The stock compression ratio is 16:1. We may try to go as low as 12.5:1.

Here's a few pics of the rods and pistons



















These rods have what is called 'cracked' caps. I've always heard they were strong, however, in recent discussions with the cummins boys it seems the newer common rail engines are using this same technology and the rods are failing in high HP builds.










I sent an E-mail to Carillo to see if they would build some custom H-Beam rods.

...and the pistons. They are Mahle's and seem to have a coating on the skirts.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Is there a minimum depth of bowl needed? My point is what if you got custom pistons where bowl was enlarged diameter but shallower depth to compensate for same volume....to keep same comp ratio? 

Also, I had read that the 16.5:1 compression ratio (and other very late model diesels) was lower than old school of around ~ 20:1 to have better emissions. Had you considered going back up into traditional territory of >18:1 comp ratio? I know, this is your money not mine on the bottom end mods. 

On the custom H beam rods, any thoughts of longer rods to improve the rod ratio? You could possibly consider shorter pistons to lighten them a little. I'm speaking from my big block Mopar standpoint. I'm unsure if diesel pistons can be run shorter with the more demanding high compression environment, so forgive the perhaps dumb gasser/muscle car inputs.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

> forgive the perhaps dumb gasser/muscle car inputs.


lol, not dumb at all. The longer rods and lighter pistons would be nice. Too much for my small mind to think about. I do know the heat seems to matter more in the diesel application and the wrist pin is kept plenty far away from the top of the piston because of the heat.

I'm thinking the pistons in the engine currently should take a world of abuse. ...and you never know in the future, maybe a set of forged Aries pistons will find their place in the BMW.

As far as compression ratio goes, again I don't know the explanation, but the higher numbers are no longer desired. The biggest problem is sometimes getting one started with such low compression. You may also want to check, It might be that those older engines you are thinking about were not turbocharged. I have an '89 VW jetta with the N/A IDI 1.6L and it is somewhere around 20:1. (and a super turd lol)


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

For the cracked rods, they should be viewed just like any other rod in a stock engine. Some are very capable, and some are not. Cracked is apparently pretty common for an OEM engine these days, so you could easily have an OEM that isnt providing them big enough for high HP applications, and some that are. Whether these BMW rods are in the strong camp or weak camp, I dont know. In a 1 to 1 comparison with the only difference being the rod end is either cracked or machined, the cracked end should be a bit stronger or longer lasting because the fit between the cap and rod is as close to perfect as it can get, where as a machined cap is likely not installed as accurately. However, cracked rods have to be made from powdered metal instead of forged steel since forged would be inclined to stretch before cracking, which obviously would not work well for this method of rod end construction. I would expect forged steel rods to be stronger using the same dimensions as powdered since everything I have ever been told about powdered metal use tells me that its not as tough as forged.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Hooper!!!! you should be a politician. Very well spoken and completely correct.

I made you famous over on my CompD build thread. You should check it outl. Iishouldin;t be typing right now as we just got back oformom a beer dringking evening in our diesel rhibo. lol sorry all. lol


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

This is ******* Engineering to the extreme. I love everything about it 

You are gonna have to add locking front and rear differentials and run track tires to put all that torque to the ground!


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

TDIwyse said:


> This is ******* Engineering to the extreme. I love everything about it
> 
> You are gonna have to add locking front and rear differentials and run track tires to put all that torque to the ground!


lol, I'll be happy to just to here it run. lol


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

I have sent a sample rod to Carrillo in CA and RR Racing in FL. I'm pretty sure the cost of these babies will make me cringe, but, no need to go any further if I don't do it right.


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## Geotrash (Dec 22, 2013)

Bodacious said:


> I have sent a sample rod to Carrillo in CA and RR Racing in FL. I'm pretty sure the cost of these babies will make me cringe, but, no need to go any further if I don't do it right.


Just wanted to say how much I am enjoying reading this thread and that the type of talent and interest you have is one of the qualities in people I value the most. You have a crystal clear goal for something you want to get done. You have the interest and discipline to stay at it. You have amazing resources both within yourself and with outside experts to overcome every challenge in the way. And you want to do the job right. This is American ingenuity at its finest and the stuff great companies are made of, too. I love it!

Cheers,
Dave


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

Well, ... ... thank you fine sir. I think I have you buffaloed just a little. lol :thumbup:


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## Geotrash (Dec 22, 2013)

Bodacious said:


> Well, ... ... thank you fine sir. I think I have you buffaloed just a little. lol :thumbup:


Doubtful ;-)

But...here's an idea for your next project. I like this guy too...

http://blog.caranddriver.com/amazing-home-build-15-7-liter-12-rotor-wankel-engine/

-D


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

WOW, thanks for the link Geotrash. ...nothing like the 'ol Wankle. At least in Mazda's eyes.


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## YozhDzl (Mar 5, 2014)

I wonder if the internals in the M550d are the same as 335d? Need to go and check. Also, may be I had missed it earlier, but what power levers are we trying to achieve here?


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## YozhDzl (Mar 5, 2014)

Edit: just checked agains the same year 535d and they use different pn rods and pistons.


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## Bodacious (Oct 17, 2014)

> what power levers are we trying to achieve here?


The goal is 700HP. I am curious now what the difference in the rods and pistons would be???


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## YozhDzl (Mar 5, 2014)

They run. The same compression but with a tri-turbo design and are rated at 381hp and 545lbs/ft torque out of the box. Rpm is up to 5400 as well. These are M badged like the M235 so I would not be surprised if they run some forged internals. I have a document on the engine somewhere. May be it will have more info.


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## Axel61 (Mar 10, 2011)

Im glad Im pumping 340 whp and 474 lb/tq love it!!


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

YozhDzl said:


> They run. The same compression but with a tri-turbo design and are rated at 381hp and 545lbs/ft torque out of the box. Rpm is up to 5400 as well. These are M badged like the M235 so I would not be surprised if they run some forged internals. I have a document on the engine somewhere. May be it will have more info.


Perhaps I'm clueless but i thought all diesels had a forged lower end.


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