# Used market for 335d vs. 328d models



## ErsteAusfahrt (Jun 11, 2014)

So I would love the idea of owning a diesel bmw 3 series, but I'm pondering the timeline idea of owning one in 12-24 months.

Sometimes I think my purchase price for a 335d with higher milage (50k+) would be a possibility but then worry about CBU that I read a lot about here and the after purchase expenses that would come along with that- when not if.

Then I think if I wait just a year or so more the depreciation of the 328d (MY2014) would make ownership possible. But then I think would a 4cyl be as peppy and as fun to drive as a 6cyl 335d... Tech/Nav packages not a deal breaker when my iphone would do all I need to anyway.

My own first world problems, I get it. But I'd be curious to get any opinions on the used market for comparing both.

Danke.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

What's the question? The market for the 335d is obviously cheaper since its older. Unless the 335d proves to have more longevity issues than just cbu, I would expect the long term market to be better for a seller than a 328d unless the 328d proves to be extremely reliable which is somewhat unlikely considering the track record that most new diesels have. I think you need to go drive them. If a 328d is good enough for you after driving both then you should get it, buying a 335d used should really just be for people who are looking for the extra power, people who want hydraulic steering, or people who don't like the f30 body style.


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## ErsteAusfahrt (Jun 11, 2014)

I'm sorry my question was:

At what point in the near future does the 328 begin to be the diesel of choice rather than the risks of an aging 335.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

OP, per your last post, you're already convinced the 328d is the better long term prospect. It would be fair to say that most of the skeletons are out of the 335d closet but it is early for a 328d. Seems i recall that 328 has the more prone to fail high press injection pump. 328 folks don't take this as me kicking your ride, I recall someone here comparing its pump to that of a VW TDI. Same folks said the 335D has the preferred one. 

With that out of the way, CBU will no doubt be the main player many will want to compare. What is the upper norm of 328d miles out there? We will likely not know if all is okay until the first wave of the 2014 crop has been around for about 2 or 3 years. 

My answer is it is too early to know if they are both same on the CBU front or not. I have read the prospects for the 328D are better due to its engine being pushed harder in normal day to day driving. How do other 4 cylinders fair? 4 cyl VW TDIs get CBU don't they? 

I do like the longer wheel base that the F30 offers versus E90.

I will leave the hydraulic vs electric rack and pinion to OP. It's subjective and we all know what we like. I'm a firm steer guy but it's not my car OP is trying to buy. All said, I'm a biased 335D owner. 328 brethren will likely have different take than me. I bought my 335D before i was aware of CBU. I've had a great time with my ride but still don't think this paranoid engineer would have walked into a BMW diesel fully knowing the CBU story. I feel better now that there are proactive solutions to keep CBU from happening but not all here will be able to do these things.


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## spencer500 (Oct 21, 2012)

BB_cuda said:


> OP, per your last post, you're already convinced the 328d is the better long term prospect. It would be fair to say that most of the skeletons are out of the 335d closet but it is early for a 328d. Seems i recall that 328 has the more prone to fail high press injection pump. 328 folks don't take this as me kicking your ride, I recall someone here comparing its pump to that of a VW TDI. Same folks said the 335D has the preferred one.
> 
> With that out of the way, CBU will no doubt be the main player many will want to compare. What is the upper norm of 328d miles out there? We will likely not know if all is okay until the first wave of the 2014 crop has been around for about 2 or 3 years.
> 
> ...


You referenced in this email "proactive solutions" for preventing CBU. Can you share with me what those would be?

I just purchased a 2011 335d and absolutely LOVE the car and the drive train. At 49,000 (2 months after I purchased it), it went in for CBU procedure. It still has a warranty, so I am fine with the service being done as it will only cost me $50. The previous owner is a relative of mine and is a very conservative, high MGP seeking driver....which I am not.

I have heard that driving the motor hard will help keep it clean. Is that true? Are there additives I should use? Since I will get my car back with a new intake manifold and freshly cleaned from all CBU issues, I would like to take all the proactive measures I can immediately so that I may be able to prolong the next CBU clean-out that may be in store for me in another 50,000 miles when I will have to pay the bill myself.

Thanks!


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## glangford (Dec 11, 2013)

BB_cuda said:


> I feel better now that there are proactive solutions to keep CBU from happening but not all here will be able to do these things.


??? What are they, other than maybe driving hard?


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## Squiddie (Dec 19, 2010)

No way I would wait to afford a F30. Between the changed steering and the less attractive motor and the unreasonable prices asked I'd go for the e90 instantly if I insisted on a diesel. The 4-cylinder F30 diesel is drastically different from what a classic BMW is like. Some like it and it is very efficient - but waiting in a bad car for the prices to drop and the issues to become known? No way.


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Spencer500, you have a PM about proactive methods


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Squiddie said:


> ... The 4-cylinder F30 diesel is drastically different from what a classic BMW is like. ...


You're talking about something you don't seem to know much about. The original 2002 with a 1.6L 4 cylinder made around 85-90 hp. The 2L that followed it was a bit faster and more powerful. The E21 320i (and 318i) that followed had around 105-110hp, and could be beaten by Toyota Celicas. Even the E30, coming in 1.8L and 2.7L Eta form, was not very fast.

All would be thrashed by the F30 328d. Wouldn't even be very close. And the 328d would beat them in the twisties, too, because the chassis (and tires) is much better.

The E36/E46 are not "classic" BMWs, but only a 330i E46 is really faster/quicker than a 328d. IMHO, You need to get off the emotional "it's a diesel!", "it's an F30 with electric steering!" bandwagons. :dunno:

BTW, I'm guessing that the 328d won't have the CBU problems that the 335d has had. The smaller engine has to work harder/hotter and with less EGR involvement (similar to 
the experience of the X5d people): because of that it's less likely to be as much of a problem (just my informed opinion.)


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

floydarogers said:


> BTW, I'm guessing that the 328d won't have the CBU problems that the 335d has had. The smaller engine has to work harder/hotter and with less EGR involvement (similar to
> the experience of the X5d people): because of that it's less likely to be as much of a problem (just my informed opinion.)


Floyd, I qualitatively agree with you that 328D will be worked harder as compared to 335D. What i'm hearing more recently is that X5D are starting to show up with CBU now but it is just taking longer to happen. Not sure if I read it here or other forum we talk at. My point is the 328D may just take longer to get there compared to 335D. Another factor will be how the CCV is done on 328D vs 335D. If no oil is going into turbo from CCV from 328, then there would only be soot powder to go into intake.

Again, i qualitatively agree but the proof will be when we see a decent sample of 328D drivers in the 50-60,000 mile range and none of the showing the CBU symptoms. Hoping for the best as BMW diesel needs to restore it's name


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## ErsteAusfahrt (Jun 11, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses and input. I think if it ever gets to happen I would lean towards the 335d and put away cash for a CBU occurrence just in case- self insure. Plus the depreciation (taxes, insurance) and service history on the model makes me think it would be a better deal *for me*.

I've been trying to do a lot of reading about it and have two potential local independent shops I would consider using for such maintenance if it ever happened. I guess I'd have to buy it first!

Until then my Corolla is rockin' and rollin' at 216k. I may just continue to drive that car until the wheels fall off and slip into something a little more fun.

Thanks again for everyone's comments. I read all the threads from top to bottom in helping plan.


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## Squiddie (Dec 19, 2010)

floydarogers said:


> You're talking about something you don't seem to know much about. The original 2002 with a 1.6L 4 cylinder made around 85-90 hp. The 2L that followed it was a bit faster and more powerful. The E21 320i (and 318i) that followed had around 105-110hp, and could be beaten by Toyota Celicas. Even the E30, coming in 1.8L and 2.7L Eta form, was not very fast.
> 
> All would be thrashed by the F30 328d. Wouldn't even be very close. And the 328d would beat them in the twisties, too, because the chassis (and tires) is much better.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about fast. And I drove a 328d this fall, in between all the other stuff.

I'm not sure I am that confident about the carbon buildup theory.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

floydarogers said:


> You're talking about something you don't seem to know much about. The original 2002 with a 1.6L 4 cylinder made around 85-90 hp. The 2L that followed it was a bit faster and more powerful. The E21 320i (and 318i) that followed had around 105-110hp, and could be beaten by Toyota Celicas. Even the E30, coming in 1.8L and 2.7L Eta form, was not very fast.
> 
> All would be thrashed by the F30 328d. Wouldn't even be very close. And the 328d would beat them in the twisties, too, because the chassis (and tires) is much better.
> 
> ...


My 1991 E30 318is was plenty fast and was better/faster driving lumpy hilly narrow country roads than my 1988 Carrera 3.2 with sport suspension tuned for Lime Rock. The Carrera, however, was unbelievable in wide mountainous smooth roads or on the Garden State Parkway weaving in and out of traffic. Visibility, suspension, control were all better IMO than in my e90 335d. I would trade my 335d to get both of those back but that is why I got it in the first place: it replaces both in a modern, newer car.

PL


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## MotoWPK (Oct 5, 2012)

floydarogers said:


> BTW, I'm guessing that the 328d won't have the CBU problems that the 335d has had. The smaller engine has to work harder/hotter and with less EGR involvement (similar to
> the experience of the X5d people): because of that it's less likely to be as much of a problem (just my informed opinion.)


This idea that the engine working harder reduces the potential for CBU seems to have gained some popularity, but I've yet to see anything to back it up. Consider that increased loads also increase the amount of soot in the exhaust, the source of CBU. With all the variables involved, whether it does or not I don't know, but then I've never seen anything factual to indicate how the potential for CBU varies with load. The differences in CBU experience between the various BMW diesel applications could readily be explained by any number of differences in the many variables related to CBU.


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## ErsteAusfahrt (Jun 11, 2014)

MotoWPK said:


> This idea that the engine working harder reduces the potential for CBU seems to have gained some popularity, but I've yet to see anything to back it up. Consider that increased loads also increase the amount of soot in the exhaust, the source of CBU. With all the variables involved, whether it does or not I don't know, but then I've never seen anything factual to indicate how the potential for CBU varies with load. The differences in CBU experience between the various BMW diesel applications could readily be explained by any number of differences in the many variables related to CBU.


Do European equivalents of the 335d/328d have this CBU problem (and solution?) as well or is this a problem or is it a uniquely North American issue. It's not like diesel is a new thing.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

ErsteAusfahrt said:


> Do European equivalents of the 335d/328d have this CBU problem (and solution?) as well or is this a problem or is it a uniquely North American issue. It's not like diesel is a new thing.


It's pretty much unique to north America.


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## spencer500 (Oct 21, 2012)

Hoooper said:


> It's pretty much unique to north America.


Why? What is different?


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## Squiddie (Dec 19, 2010)

spencer500 said:


> Why? What is different?


Well this country has a much bigger carbon footprint, so...


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

spencer500 said:


> Why? What is different?


We have a different emissions package and different emissions limits. The EGR is VERY active in the north American model which results in a lot of soot heading into the intake. There are likely other compounding issues but blocking the EGR solves the problem.


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## ErsteAusfahrt (Jun 11, 2014)

Is recoding the EGR something that could be done with a knowledgeable coder? Does that void the warranty (if any is left)?

I was thinking about looking for a 335d on CarMax and seeing if the CBU could be included in a MaxCare negating a majority of my worry if it was to be a habitual problem.


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## 9mmkungfu (Sep 11, 2014)

brettboat said:


> So straight pipe recommended? lol


That opens another can of worms. See this thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1074384


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## MotoWPK (Oct 5, 2012)

brettboat said:


> Well... Aside from here, The bimmerfest diesel owners section... If you go on Powerstrokearmy, powerstroke nation, diesel bombers, etc... Putting the accelerator to the floor is always called WOT. So that's JUST you.
> 
> My opinion is if you can serverley cut off EGR or eliminate it, even if only for a short period of time... There are cleaning benefits.
> 
> Can we atleast agree the EGR system is the root of the CBU issues?


I don't deny many use the term 'WOT' in relation to diesels, that doesn't change the fact that it's a technically inaccurate term. In my many years as a mechanical engineer involved with the design of diesel power systems none of those involved used the term 'WOT', instead using terms that provided an accurate description, such as 'fueling rate'.

Stopping or reducing EGR will certainly reduce or eliminate the accumulation of carbon build-up since, as you point out, EGR is one of the root causes of CBU. Any cleaning benefits, however, are negligible. It simply takes greater temperatures than occur in the intake to remove accumulated CBU, a mixture of soot and oil.

Besides soot from the exhaust, the other root cause of CBU is oil introduced into the intake through the crankcase vent, mixing with the exhaust soot. If there were no oil, there would be negligible deposition of exhaust soot in the intake from the EGR. We tend to blame the EGR since crankcase ventilation to the intake preceded it so EGR, as the most recent variable introduced, gets the blame, but if you did vent the crankcase to elsewhere than the intake, or removed the oil from the crankcase vent flow, you would effectively eliminate CBU.


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## 9mmkungfu (Sep 11, 2014)

MotoWPK said:


> We tend to blame the EGR since crankcase ventilation to the intake preceded it so EGR, as the most recent variable introduced, gets the blame, but if you did vent the crankcase to elsewhere than the intake, or removed the oil from the crankcase vent flow, you would effectively eliminate CBU.


So you're saying users with an effective catch can setup should never see CBU?

I am testing this now as I recently had the carbon blasting procedure performed and have installed a catch can very shortly afterward.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

brettboat said:


> Well... Aside from here, The bimmerfest diesel owners section... If you go on Powerstrokearmy, powerstroke nation, diesel bombers, etc... Putting the accelerator to the floor is always called WOT. So that's JUST you.


Not just whoever it is... I believe I've also posted regarding use of WOT - after all I do have the pedant label...


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

MotoWPK said:


> It simply takes greater temperatures than occur in the intake to remove accumulated CBU, a mixture of soot and oil.


FWIW, solvents such as methanol also work over time to clean out the build up. Combined with an EGR block, water/meth injection is an effective cleaner.


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## MotoWPK (Oct 5, 2012)

9mmkungfu said:


> So you're saying users with an effective catch can setup should never see CBU?
> 
> I am testing this now as I recently had the carbon blasting procedure performed and have installed a catch can very shortly afterward.


It would certainly depend on the degree of effectiveness in removing oil from the crankcase ventilation flow stream. The most effective means I'm familiar with are filtration units that use a replaceable filter cartridge. The term 'catch can' implies to me a means that depends soley on inertial effects to remove the oil (the method BMW has integrated into its engines) and, to my experience, these aren't as effective as filtration methods. Filtration methods are fairly common in medium and heavy duty applications. I don't know of any manufacturers that use filtration units on light duty diesel vehicles due to cost and space constraints.

What degree of oil removal from the crankcase ventilation is needed to, if not eliminate, at least reduce the degree of CBU so it is not an issue? I don't know, but you'd have to expect there are those actively involved in diesel engine development that do, just as there are those that have detailed information regarding the management of variables involved with CBU to minimize it to the point that it's not an issue. Hopefully this includes the engine development team at BMW, having learned from experiences such as the 335d.


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## MotoWPK (Oct 5, 2012)

Hoooper said:


> FWIW, solvents such as methanol also work over time to clean out the build up. Combined with an EGR block, water/meth injection is an effective cleaner.


I wouldn't be surprised that injection of a cleaning agent could avoid CBU problems even with EGR active. It would come at the cost of additional complexity including what impact the solvent may have on emissions control. The chemistry involved in modern emissions control is quite complex and almost no change can be made that doesn't involve a disadvantage accompanying whatever advantage is provided; e.g. EGR reduces NOx but increases PM.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

MotoWPK said:


> I wouldn't be surprised that injection of a cleaning agent could avoid CBU problems even with EGR active. It would come at the cost of additional complexity including what impact the solvent may have on emissions control. The chemistry involved in modern emissions control is quite complex and almost no change can be made that doesn't involve a disadvantage accompanying whatever advantage is provided; e.g. EGR reduces NOx but increases PM.


Doesnt seem to have any effect on the actual parts when used in moderation. Emissions it of course would have an effect on. Its still just a simple fuel and water, two things which are already common in the combustion chamber. Ive been running water/meth for nearly 40k miles now. The intake is much cleaner than it was at 60k miles (im at 98k miles, no physical CBU cleaning has been done, EGR has been blocked since about 60k miles and w/m injection has been going since around the same time) and no sign of emissions issues so far. Im sure if you were to be constantly spraying it would be an issue, but mine only starts coming on above 10 PSI boost and is progressive so it doesnt spray all that often and when it does its usually only a small amount.


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## dragoncoach (Aug 4, 2007)

Thread drift. This has turned into a CBU discussion.


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## MotoWPK (Oct 5, 2012)

dragoncoach said:


> Thread drift. This has turned into a CBU discussion.


Well...you're right about that and I'll claim mea cupla at least in part. In my defense, the thread topic is 335d vs. 328d and, from everything I've read regarding the 335d, CBU is about the only significant issue in the 335d's history so it's probably inevitable it will arise when comparing these models (or any BMW diesel). Oh hell, I did it again.


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## Squiddie (Dec 19, 2010)

MotoWPK said:


> Well...you're right about that and I'll claim mea cupla at least in part. In my defense, the thread topic is 335d vs. 328d and, from everything I've read regarding the 335d, CBU is about the only significant issue in the 335d's history so it's probably inevitable it will arise when comparing these models (or any BMW diesel). Oh hell, I did it again.


I for one greatly appreciated covering this topic.


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## brettboat (Nov 10, 2014)

MotoWPK said:


> I don't deny many use the term 'WOT' in relation to diesels, that doesn't change the fact that it's a technically inaccurate term. In my many years as a mechanical engineer involved with the design of diesel power systems none of those involved used the term 'WOT', instead using terms that provided an accurate description, such as 'fueling rate'.
> 
> Stopping or reducing EGR will certainly reduce or eliminate the accumulation of carbon build-up since, as you point out, EGR is one of the root causes of CBU. Any cleaning benefits, however, are negligible. It simply takes greater temperatures than occur in the intake to remove accumulated CBU, a mixture of soot and oil.
> 
> Besides soot from the exhaust, the other root cause of CBU is oil introduced into the intake through the crankcase vent, mixing with the exhaust soot. If there were no oil, there would be negligible deposition of exhaust soot in the intake from the EGR. We tend to blame the EGR since crankcase ventilation to the intake preceded it so EGR, as the most recent variable introduced, gets the blame, but if you did vent the crankcase to elsewhere than the intake, or removed the oil from the crankcase vent flow, you would effectively eliminate CBU.


Engineer... Explains alot. Well you fix the crank case breather by just bumping it overboard... Sure it smells like burning oil at a stop light, but no more oil in your intercooler lines or turbo.

As for throwing an overboost code... Really? I don't think a stock turbo on ANY diesel can actually over boost it... Never heard of any 335D making enough boost to cause a REAL overboost condition... If you throw a code, put a boost fooler in the map line. Fool the computer into thinking you're never making more than 25-27 pounds... It won't defuel itself.


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## cruise_bone (Jun 6, 2007)

Squiddie said:


> No way I would wait to afford a F30. Between the changed steering and the less attractive motor and the unreasonable prices asked I'd go for the e90 instantly if I insisted on a diesel. The 4-cylinder F30 diesel is drastically different from what a classic BMW is like. Some like it and it is very efficient - but waiting in a bad car for the prices to drop and the issues to become known? No way.


Every car BMW now makes is a turbo, thus every car BMW now makes is drastically different from what a classic BMW is like.


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## Squiddie (Dec 19, 2010)

cruise_bone said:


> Every car BMW now makes is a turbo, thus every car BMW now makes is drastically different from what a classic BMW is like.


The new engines are fine, in fact I find them improved.

The new steering (feel) is not.


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