# Biodiesel as a Lubricity Additive?



## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Several posters here have mentioned using B5 as a lubricity aid, and the practice seems to be fairly common in the TDI world. To this point, the use of B5 has been viewed as a seemingly safe approach to improving the lubricity of ULSD, so long as the use of Biodiesel is limited to the manufacturer-approved 5%.

Recent tests by VW have found that even at 5% concentration, biodiesel migrates quite dramatically to the engine oil:



> Volkswagen is using post-injection for regeneration and according to Stuart Johnson with the Engineering and Environmental Office of Volkswagen Group of America, the issue of oil dilution from biodiesel is a real concern for the automakers. "We can tolerate up to 50 percent fuel mix in the oil but no more," he said at the 2008 National Biodiesel Conference.
> 
> Volkswagen tests using B5 and post-injection showed 45 percent oil dilution after 10,000 miles, but surprisingly no engine damage was evident upon inspection. "Using B10 at 10,000 miles surpasses that 50 percent threshold-and that is unacceptable," Johnson said. "We want longer oil change intervals as a car company, so it's hard for us to talk about this." The implications are that increased fuel dilution due to biodiesel blends could lead to premature engine wear if oil changes are not done more often.


So, it appears that even sticking to the 5% limitation can lead to significant oil dilution if we follow BMW's 15,000 mile OCI. If the oil is changed more frequently, the dilution would be reduced.

Beyond the issue of oil dilution, the chemical interactions discussed in the linked article are disturbing to me. I had decided previously to use a B1 or B2 blend for lubricity, but this information is causing me to rethink my plans. As of now, no biodiesel for the 335D.

It's to the credit of this magazine that they published this information; as a biodiesel supporter, it's certainly not in their interest.

http://biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290&q=&page=all


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

And I think that the sale of biodiesel is mandated by some local governments. For instance, in the city of Portland, Oregon you cannot buy straight Diesel -- it is B10.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

LMC said:


> And I think that the sale of biodiesel is mandated by some local governments. For instance, in the city of Portland, Oregon you cannot buy straight Diesel -- it is B10.


This VW information makes me wonder if the manufacturers will try to go a different direction for pollution regs (away from DPF). Either that, or have to radically rethink their OCI information. Having read what the VW rep said about their quest for longer OCI's, I can't imagine that VW or BMW or any other manufacturer will give up longer OCI's willingly.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

62Lincoln said:


> This VW information makes me wonder if the manufacturers will try to go a different direction for pollution regs (away from DPF). Either that, or have to radically rethink their OCI information. Having read what the VW rep said about their quest for longer OCI's, *I can't imagine that VW or BMW or any other manufacturer will give up longer OCI's willingly.*


Not when they are paying the freight for the oil changes....

Invariably, owners have a decision confronting them - use B5 to improve the lubricity and do more frequent oil changes or roll the dice on future lubricity problems by sticking with straight ULSD and keep the extended oil change intervals. There is a third option - go with an additive such as Powerservice.

BTW, my used oil analysis results do not support an 10,000+ mile extended oil change interval. Using the Castrol LL-04 spec oil that the dealer puts in the M57N2 engine, my driving cycle gets to around an 8,000 mile duration before the TBN is at 2 (the viscosity is also barely within the specification for 5W30 oil). For me, a TBN of 2 and viscosity marginally within the specification range is time to change the oil.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

anE934fun said:


> Invariably, owners have a decision confronting them - use B5 to improve the lubricity and do more frequent oil changes or roll the dice on future lubricity problems by sticking with straight ULSD and keep the extended oil change intervals. There is a third option - go with an additive such as Powerservice.


I agree, but then the additive question is a huge can of worms of its own.

The other issue the article identified concerns me too, as it can occur with any use of bio:



> Oil additive packages, which may constitute up to 25 percent of the total lubricant, contain dispersants to suspend soot in the oil, viscosity improvers, over-base detergent used to neutralize any acids built up and zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) as an anti-wear agent. "Look at all of these additives," Fang says. "They are all bipolar molecules-one side of these molecules is very polar while the other is nonpolar. The nonpolar tail is used to sustain the polar head and make it suspended in the oil, which is largely nonpolar." So the additives are relatively polar compounds compared with the base oil, and methyl esters are polar as well. Polar molecules are attracted to polar molecules, so biodiesel in the oil is attracted to the likewise polar additives. "We used spectroscopy to quantify this," Fang says.*The more polar the additives, the more they interact with the biodiesel. And if the biodiesel gets degraded, or experiences thermal or oxidative aging or whatever, the biodiesel will absorb more oxygen and become even more polar, which will generate even more interaction with the additives." *
> 
> It didn't take long for Fang to discover the adverse effect aged biodiesel has on ZDDP, the anti-wear additive. ZDDP is chemically designed to be attracted to the metal surface of the cylinder walls and to form a protective layer.*But if you've got biodiesel in your oil, and the biodiesel likes to go to the metal surface too because the metal surface is polar, the biodiesel competes with the additive over the metal surface," Fang says. Although there are complex interactions between the biodiesel and additives affecting the functionality of the additive, Fang suggests the mere fact that biodiesel and ZDDP compete for surface area on the cylinder walls is troublesome enough. The effectiveness of detergents is also mitigated by the presence of biodiesel in the oil.*


That last highlighted section was the final straw for me.



anE934fun said:


> BTW, my used oil analysis results do not support an 10,000+ mile extended oil change interval. Using the Castrol LL-04 spec oil that the dealer puts in the M57N2 engine, my driving cycle gets to around an 8,000 mile duration before the TBN is at 2 (the viscosity is also barely within the specification for 5W30 oil). For me, a TBN of 2 and viscosity marginally within the specification range is time to change the oil.


Would you consider sharing your UOA? It could be very helpful in demonstrating what you've written. Regardless, thank you for sharing your information, it's helping me understand our engines. I completely agree with your assessment of the TBN and viscosity.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

62Lincoln said:


> I agree, _but then the additive question is a huge can of worms of its own._


Meh. Powerservice has been in use for quite a while and I haven't seen posts from owners using Powerservice complaining of HPFPs being munched. I did a bunch of searching on TDIClub.com before deciding to use Powerservice, and didn't find any complaints. I imagine if it had happened, there would have been some complaint; but so far, silence.



> Would you consider sharing your UOA? It could be very helpful in demonstrating what you've written. Regardless, thank you for sharing your information, it's helping me understand our engines. I completely agree with your assessment of the TBN and viscosity.


At 7,400 miles on the oil (8,600 miles on the engine), the TBN was 2.8 (TBN on the 1,200 mile sample was 6.8). SUS Viscosity (high temp viscosity) for the 7,400 mile sample was 55 (specification is 54-61). One could argue that there was some life left on the oil, but I am not going to find the failure point of the oil on my engine. I will do another oil analysis when I can get a sample with 7,500 miles on it (the free change from BMW will probably have only 4,000 miles on it). I doubt there will be much that changes regarding TBN or viscosity; mostly the wear items should be down (hopefully).


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

I don't think you can go wrong with PS; I've read it advertised as an additive on one of the "premium" diesel fuels, but I can't remember which one.


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## Evilsizer (Apr 4, 2008)

one thing i haven't touched on is the additive BMW uses now. similar to "blue tech" from daimlerchrysler or is it the exact same, what ever you want to call it. it does reduce pollution of the petrol diesel but have they looked at how this additive interacts with bio at all? that might have in smaller mixes such as B5 but most of the research i have been reading about says that biodiesel is suppose to be a petrol diesel replacement. i'm starting to think that it is not the case for newer diesel based cars/trucks using additive to reduce emissions (like blue tech or what BMW calls it). something i wish we could have a answer to is. does a B100 offer the same emissions as this petrol diesel+additive or worse or what? it would be interesting to see the numbers, to me any way.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Evilsizer said:


> one thing i haven't touched on is the additive BMW uses now. similar to "blue tech" from daimlerchrysler or is it the exact same, what ever you want to call it. it does reduce pollution of the petrol diesel but have they looked at how this additive interacts with bio at all? that might have in smaller mixes such as B5 but most of the research i have been reading about says that biodiesel is suppose to be a petrol diesel replacement. i'm starting to think that it is not the case for newer diesel based cars/trucks using additive to reduce emissions (like blue tech or what BMW calls it). something i wish we could have a answer to is. does a B100 offer the same emissions as this petrol diesel+additive or worse or what? it would be interesting to see the numbers, to me any way.


BlueTec ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec ) is MB's trade name for the NOx emission reduction system that is on most new diesel engines. It uses post combustion treatment (via injection of a urea mixture *after* the exhaust exits the combustion chamber). There is no BlueTec (or Adblue or whatever trade name is being used for the urea fluid) being added to the fuel before it is injected into the combustion chamber. To the extent that biodiesel has issues with production of NOx emissions, urea injection is a viable option.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

IIRC, biodiesel has a big problem with NoX emissions, and cannot meet upcoming pollution regs. And, as noted, it is not compatible with the emission technology chosen by BMW, Mercedes, and VW to meet the upcoming pollution regs. As best I can tell, bio will continue to be used in older vehicles, but it isn't a viable solution for new vehicles going forward.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

62Lincoln said:


> IIRC, biodiesel has a big problem with NoX emissions, and cannot meet upcoming pollution regs. And, as noted, it is not compatible with the emission technology chosen by BMW, Mercedes, and VW to meet the upcoming pollution regs.


Do you have any details as to why you think bio diesel is not compatible with the emission technology chosen by BMW, Mercedes, and VW?

http://www.worktruckonline.com/Arti...-EPA-Standard-Impact-Fleet-Biodiesel-Use.aspx

I don't believe BMW's reluctance to condone more than B5 has anything to do with the emissions technology used, but with other potential biodiesel issues.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Penguin, it's contained in the article linked in my first post.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Penguin said:


> Do you have any details as to why you think bio diesel is not compatible with the emission technology chosen by BMW, Mercedes, and VW?
> 
> http://www.worktruckonline.com/Arti...-EPA-Standard-Impact-Fleet-Biodiesel-Use.aspx
> 
> I don't believe BMW's reluctance to condone more than B5 has anything to do with the emissions technology used, but with other potential biodiesel issues.


I tend to doubt a .com site's objectivity. Here is a link to a study published by a .gov site: www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/38296.pdf

The Cliff-Notes version is that biodiesel has the following impact on NOx emissions:
No change for B5
2% up for B20
10% up for B100

Particulates:
5% down for B5
12% down for B20
48% down for B100

62Lincoln has posted about the problems of biodiesel competing for lubrication contact with engine oil. I think the 'issue' for manufacturers with regard to biodiesel use occurs from having to resort to more frequent oil change intervals. Oil change interval is a hard cost for the manufacturer as long as it pays for the maintenance on the car for the first 50K miles. Further, increased biodiesel content results in higher production of NOx emissions, which would have a requirement for greater use of DEF injection (which is also a hard cost to the manufacturer as long as it is offering 'free' maintenance during the first 50K miles). It is not practical to count the reduction in particulates with biodiesel as an offset to the increased NOx emissions, because unless there is a universal mandate for use of biodiesel, the gains can not be realized. Net-net, I don't see manufacturers 'recommending' increased use of biodiesel as a fuel absent a change in the underlying economics for the manufacturer.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

62Lincoln said:


> Penguin, it's contained in the article linked in my first post.


Thanks, I should have read the thread more carefully.

It sound to me that simply having a shorter engine oil change interval would address the issues mentioned in the article. The particulate filter discussion in the article sounds like idle speculation on the part of a University Professor. It will be interesting if any real data can be developed on the DPF impact.

As an aside, my X5d asked for, and got, an oil change at 9,300 miles. I don't know how normal that is, as the X5 computer seemed to go a bit crazy on that one, i.e., on a Thursday morning will on a long trip the i-drive said I had 1,800 miles to go before the oil change. I drove 50 miles, and then it suddenly told me I was 25 miles past the time for an oil change.

A bit inconvenient to be sure, having to suddenly get to a BMW dealer on a trip 1,800 miles before expected.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

anE934fun said:


> The Cliff-Notes version is that biodiesel has the following impact on NOx emissions:
> 
> No change for B5
> 2% up for B20
> ...


Interesting data. A few comments:

(1) The reduction in particulates should somewhat offset any issues with metal contamination of the DPF, since the DPF will be "working" much less, e.g., half as often of a burnoff with B100.

(2) The NOx increase should be handled easily by the SCR system; however, it may use more DEF and possibly shorten the life of the SCR catalyst to some extent. This may have to be addressed by making the DEF system easier to fill by the user -- over-the-road semis will soon be pumping DEF in a similar way they pump Diesel nowadays. And the long-term cost of DEF is estimated to approximate the cost of diesel fuel. So maybe DEF becomes similar to buying fuel, except perhaps you have to do it every 5,000 miles, or after every 10-15 tanks of fuel, in the worst case.

I agree it is unlikely that BMW or other manufacturers will be rushing to approve the use of bio-diesel, until such time as popular demand might cause them to lose sales with such an approval. After all, there is no benefit to the manufacturer to approve use of biodiesel and I would expect that at this developmental stage of the biodiesel industry, the quality of biodiesel probably varies more than that of diesel fuel.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

62Lincoln said:


> Several posters here have mentioned using B5 as a lubricity aid, and the practice seems to be fairly common in the TDI world. To this point, the use of B5 has been viewed as a seemingly safe approach to improving the lubricity of ULSD, so long as the use of Biodiesel is limited to the manufacturer-approved 5%.
> 
> Recent tests by VW have found that even at 5% concentration, biodiesel migrates quite dramatically to the engine oil:
> 
> ...


I have yet to hear of a diesel going 15k miles per OCI. Remember you can get your oil changed at lesser of 1yr or when the OBC says so. I wouldn't worry to much about oil dilution from B5/B2. It's a bigger issue when you get to B20 up to B100 and you won't be using B20/B100 in your diesel will you!


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

From the linked article:



> Volkswagen tests *using B5* and post-injection showed 45 percent oil dilution after 10,000 miles


I agree with you, I will be changing my oil on a more aggressive schedule than BMW suggests. Also, don't forget the bio's interaction with the oil additives as discussed in the article.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

62Lincoln said:


> From the linked article:
> 
> I agree with you, *I will be changing my oil on a more aggressive schedule than BMW suggests*. Also, don't forget the bio's interaction with the oil additives as discussed in the article.


My only point is that you would be well-served to do a couple of used oil analysis tests to find the optimum point for when to change the oil and filter. Since our d engines have the dip stick, it is not a huge effort to pull a sample of the oil (Blackstone was even selling an oil sampling pump for something like $20 a few months ago).


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> I have yet to hear of a diesel going 15k miles per OCI.


Mine asked for the oil change at 9,300 miles.


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## Stevarino (May 14, 2002)

*Coming in bigger percentages to a station near you..*

If you don't like bio-diesel now, check out the "Energy Independance and Security Act of 2007".

In short, we are going to be swimming in bio-diesel in just a few years.

You got to respect that farm lobby, they do get the job done for the "corn huskers".

Here is the link:
http://energy.senate.gov/public/_files/RL342941.pdf

The first page summary tells it all. Then read page 5.


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## Evilsizer (Apr 4, 2008)

Stevarino said:


> If you don't like bio-diesel now, check out the "Energy Independance and Security Act of 2007".
> 
> In short, we are going to be swimming in bio-diesel in just a few years.
> 
> ...


one thing, bio-diesel isn't just from corn oil.... it can be made from any kind of oil, could be Corn, Canola, vegetable or even hemp oil. hemp oil would be the one of the better choices to use for bio-diesel over corn. now only if you could get the GOV in the US to allow hemp growing for commercial applications.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Stevarino said:


> If you don't like bio-diesel now, check out the "Energy Independance and Security Act of 2007".
> 
> In short, we are going to be swimming in bio-diesel in just a few years.
> 
> ...


Meh. The act hasn't been passed into law as yet if memory serves. Even if biodiesel is mandated, I would expect lubricating oil to get an additive package that isn't competitive with biodiesel. As far as biodiesel dilution of the engine oil, that would involve more frequent oil and filter changes, which is something I am presently doing. A couple of used oil samples to find the point where the oil needs to be changed due to contamination, and I am good to go. I really doubt that biodiesel causes the M57 engine to run any differently; it is more a matter of what happens to the engine oil, which is also manageable.

EDIT: Even if the legislation passed as presently written, I don't see biodiesel becoming universally required. More fleets will be using biodiesel; there will be some areas that mandate B10 that are presently requiring B5. And, and, and. The renewable content rises from 9 billion gallons in 2008 to 36 billion gallons in 2036. The renewable content is not going purely into biodiesel; there will be a split between ethanol and biodiesel, from what I saw in the linked document.


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## Stevarino (May 14, 2002)

The law was signed by President Bush on December 19, 2007.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Stevarino said:


> The law was signed by President Bush on December 19, 2007.


Okay. So there is a piece of legislation that calls for an increase in the quantity of renewable fuel in the nation's fuel supply. Was there a funding mechanism? I skimmed the linked document, but did not find a funding mechanism. An un-funded mandate is basically a bunch of hot air in the present political environment in D.C.

Even if there is a funded mandate in the future (and I am referring to a subsidy for biodiesel or a tax increase on regular diesel (or both)), I don't see increased levels of biodiesel being fatal to the M57 engine. Increased biodiesel content would increase the maintenance costs, but I doubt the increased maintenance cost would appreciably change the economics of diesel operation (I don't see gas prices getting dramatically lower than diesel, such that the fuel economy advantage is canceled). My personal belief is that a higher renewable content in gasoline will wreck havoc on the engines that are not able to run higher levels of ethanol content.


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## Stevarino (May 14, 2002)

All I know is that I have an owner's manual that says not to put more than 5% bio-diesel in my car. 

There is a law now in effect that says the oil companies must increase the percentage of bio fuels every year for the foreseeable future.

Somethings got to give and it will not be the farm lobby.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Stevarino said:


> All I know is that I have an owner's manual that says not to put more than 5% bio-diesel in my car.
> 
> *There is a law now in effect that says the oil companies must increase the percentage of bio fuels every year for the foreseeable future.*
> 
> Somethings got to give and it will not be the farm lobby.


If there is a requirement to increase the utilization, but no increased supply is available, the refiners can credibly argue that they can't meet the requirement and get a waiver. Absent a funding mechanism, increased renewables won't be produced. All of the ethanol plants that sprouted in the past 5 years had a tax incentive (Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit) that funded the plant construction and operation. VEETC expires December 31, 2010. I wonder if it will be extended in the current deficit environment?


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## Stevarino (May 14, 2002)

Why do you think there will be no supply of bio-diesel? The price of soy has doubled as a result of using more land to grow corn for fuel. There will be plenty of bio-fuels around because it is a "sure thing" with a growing customer base imposed by law.

Funding mechanism? The "funding mechanism" is when you pull out your credit card to buy some gas/diesel.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Stevarino said:


> Why do you think there will be no supply of bio-diesel? The price of soy has doubled as a result of using more land to grow corn for fuel. There will be plenty of bio-fuels around because it is a "sure thing" with a growing customer base imposed by law.
> 
> Funding mechanism? The "funding mechanism" is when you pull out your credit card to buy some gas/diesel.


The credit card is the final step in the consumption mechanism. Why do you think that there is so much anxiety over the renewal of VEETC? BTW, no new ethanol or biodiesel plants have been constructed this year. Why is that if the requirement to use an increased quantity of biofuels is such a sure thing?


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## Stevarino (May 14, 2002)

anE934fun said:


> Why is that if the requirement to use an increased quantity of biofuels is such a sure thing?


I am not in the oil business but I have noticed that when the government passes a law they tend to be annoyingly persistent about enforcing it.

Anyway, I am about to jump into my brand new 2011 335d for a much deserved vacation in Saratoga Springs, NY. I have googled the New York State Thruway rest areas and have selected the Mobil station at the Malden Travel Plaza for my fuel upload (N42.11082 W73.95653). I should be at 1/4 tank by then so I will upload 10 gal. and then stop the pump before the auto-shutoff has a chance to spill fuel on the recently washed car. (In New York you have to hold the trigger on the fuel pump anyway.)

I selected Mobil because I don't think they have bio-diesel yet. I will check the labels on the pump carefully before I refuel.

I will do some research on the above subject when I get back.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

IMO, the best way to enjoy the d is on a road trip. I picked up my d in L.A. and promptly headed back to the S.F. bay area via CA Highway 1. Enjoy your vacation! :thumbup:


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## cablue (Apr 24, 2007)

Just watched a very interesting documentary called "Fuel." And, yes, they are making biodiesel out of a lot of different products. Algae seems to be a very efficient plant to use. It certainly got me more interested in biodiesel. Has anyone actually used biodiesel in their diesels?


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

cablue said:


> Algae seems to be a very efficient plant to use. It certainly got me more interested in biodiesel. ?


My scarcastic nature believes Monsanto, ADM, and the corn growers in the midwest will make sure their corn ethanol will be 'competitive' complements of The State.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

cablue said:


> Just watched a very interesting documentary called "Fuel." And, yes, they are making biodiesel out of a lot of different products. Algae seems to be a very efficient plant to use. It certainly got me more interested in biodiesel. Has anyone actually used biodiesel in their diesels?


Disclaimer- I do not own a common rail diesel (yet ) but have used B2-B20 for the last 8 years.

I enjoyed much of that film, but they did not make a clear distinction between the junk he was burning in his Winnebego and what is sold at the pump in Germany.

Algae based biodiesel would be fine for your X5.

Here's a helpful document for understanding some of the concerns about using biodiesel:
http://www.bimmerfile.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/FIEM_Common_Position_Statement_2009.pdf


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

cablue said:


> Just watched a very interesting documentary called "Fuel." And, yes, they are making biodiesel out of a lot of different products. Algae seems to be a very efficient plant to use. It certainly got me more interested in biodiesel. Has anyone actually used biodiesel in their diesels?


I made my own for ~5 yrs as a hobby and ran it in rotary IP VW TDI and Jeep conversion, an inline IP in my Kubota garden tractor, and in the common rail IP Cummins. Summers the % would be as high as ~ 80-90%. Winters would drop down to ~10%. It's a lot of fussing around to make that much fuel, especially good quality stuff (initially I sent multiple samples into a lab to get analyzed to dial in my process). I've got friends who make "stuff" I'd be scared to put in my engines.

After 5 yrs of doing this it makes $3/gal pump fuel not seem so bad.

Most newer engines that do post injection to clean the DPF are not compatible with high blend ratios of convetional biodiesel due to the fuel making it into the crankcase oil.

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290


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## cablue (Apr 24, 2007)

Thanks for the links! I have a lot to learn.


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## HoustonScott (Sep 19, 2010)

"Most newer engines that do post injection to clean the DPF are not compatible with high blend ratios of convetional biodiesel due to the fuel making it into the crankcase oil."
My understanding is the BMW 335d engine doesn't do post injection, that's what VW has done to avoid AgBlue systems on their cars. So the issues here in the thread do not apply to BMW's with AgBlue. The DPF burn is electric and doesn't use fuel. Don't see the problem unless you have a VW. Oh, I don't believe in long oil changes in any reguard, I changed oil at 2k and again at 6k, 3 to 5k is where I am going to change oil, I use the mobile 1, esp 5/30. When the dealer pays at one year I will still use my oil and take the dealer oil and sell it or use it in lawn mower or generator. 

HS


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I have no idea how much truth is behind this but when I first got my truck I did some looking into biodiesel. I found a large percentage of the people who were running the strong blends(B80 and up) were running into injector failures. These were in trucks with pretty low miles since the engines had not been out but for maybe 2 years at the time. The common speculation at the time among all those users was that the problem was the injector pressures are so high in these setups that the fuel was actually crystalizing. Who knows what the real reason was, it maybe was that reason but regardless it was an expensive repair for those guys to be making and made me decide not to even try biodiesel.

A few years ago I ran into the original owner of an old Mercedes diesel station wagon who for many years had been running his car on used motor oil of all things. Sometimes a little amazing what you can get an older and less complicated diesel engine to run on. I forget how many miles he had on that thing, I think it was over 500k and just kept going and going. If I ever stumble onto a killer deal for an old Cummins 4BT and TH400 transmission out of a old bread box truck then I'd maybe play with the biodiesel idea after converting my mid 70s Ford truck over to the Cummins. For what ever reason the desire to do a conversion to my Mercedes has never hit me at all but it is really common on those old 300SD cars to convert to run on high blends of biodiesel.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

HoustonScott said:


> "Most newer engines that do post injection to clean the DPF are not compatible with high blend ratios of convetional biodiesel due to the fuel making it into the crankcase oil."
> My understanding is the BMW 335d engine doesn't do post injection, that's what VW has done to avoid AgBlue systems on their cars. So the issues here in the thread do not apply to BMW's with AgBlue. The DPF burn is electric and doesn't use fuel. Don't see the problem unless you have a VW. Oh, I don't believe in long oil changes in any reguard, I changed oil at 2k and again at 6k, 3 to 5k is where I am going to change oil, I use the mobile 1, esp 5/30. When the dealer pays at one year I will still use my oil and take the dealer oil and sell it or use it in lawn mower or generator.
> 
> HS


IIRC the DPF burn off is done post injection and not electrically or via down stream injector (see photos).


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

HoustonScott said:


> "Most newer engines that do post injection to clean the DPF are not compatible with high blend ratios of convetional biodiesel due to the fuel making it into the crankcase oil."
> My understanding is the BMW 335d engine doesn't do post injection, that's what VW has done to avoid AgBlue systems on their cars. So the issues here in the thread do not apply to BMW's with AgBlue. The DPF burn is electric and doesn't use fuel. Don't see the problem unless you have a VW. Oh, I don't believe in long oil changes in any reguard, I changed oil at 2k and again at 6k, 3 to 5k is where I am going to change oil, I use the mobile 1, esp 5/30. When the dealer pays at one year I will still use my oil and take the dealer oil and sell it or use it in lawn mower or generator.
> 
> HS


Whoever told you this is completely wrong. The BMW 335D engine uses post injection. A DPF won't work without diesel fuel to combust, so the fuel must come from either its own separate tank, or from post injection (as pointed out by BMWTurboDzl above), as is done in our engines. The reason you are okay using Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 is that it is a low SAPS oil, specifically approved by BMW for LL04 standards, which relate to low ash content and low SAPS, which are a necessity to avoid contamination of the DPF.

If our engines were running as you suggest, what would be the underlying reason for BMW to limit biodiesel to B7 in our engines?


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## HoustonScott (Sep 19, 2010)

Does the engine send fuel the DPF on every cycle or just when it wants to burn off. 
If that's how it works it seem like that happens so few times to be an issue. 
Is BMW working to over come this so we can burn Bio Diesel. Their is a need and desire
to burn bio, it goes with the type of people in the USA who buy them...

HS


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Only type of people I know who buy diesels and have a need/want to run biodiesel are very far from the type of people I encounter who typically buy BMW or Mercedes diesels. Actually pretty far from any of the truck diesel owners I encounter that purchase newer trucks. I do encounter a certain type of diesel truck owner that need/wants to run biodiesel but they almost all are people who only buy cheap/ancient diesel trucks and want to run home brewed biodiesel only.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

HoustonScott said:


> Does the engine send fuel the DPF on every cycle or just when it wants to burn off.
> If that's how it works it seem like that happens so few times to be an issue.
> Is BMW working to over come this so we can burn Bio Diesel. Their is a need and desire
> to burn bio, it goes with the type of people in the USA who buy them...
> ...


BMW already allows up to B7 (for MY 2011), B5 for previous model years. Read the article linked in the first post of this thread, there's a lot to digest in terms of bio's affect on engines with DPF. There is the oil dilution issue, and then there is the issue of how bio interacts in a negative way with oil additives once the bio makes its way to the oil pan. The latter issue seems to be only recently discovered, and the study of the affects seems to be in the early stages.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I wonder how the US auto makers are tackling this. I do not know for the Dodge or the Chevy but have noticed all the new Ford diesels say B20 on their fenders. I'd assume it is a high pressure system at the very least.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm wondering if BMW is doing any tests with B20 Diesel on our cars; it's getting more challenging to get D2 in Illinois (or anything less than 5%). I have 3 stations which I get fuel from, but none of them is on my regular commute. If the things keep going as they are in IL our diesels will not be 50 state compliant, in my opinion, since it will not be possible to fuel up in IL. Thanks to large farm lobbyist and our great politicians
Any one looking to buy 335d ? LOL


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

tlak77 said:


> ...Any one looking to but 335d ? LOL


I'm assuming you meant "buy" 335d. I'd be very interested in about a year.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

d geek said:


> I'm assuming you meant "buy" 335d. I'd be very interested in about a year.


You right d geek My plan is to drive it till September 2012 and replace with another diesel . Unless, fuel ups become inposible  Lets hope it won't get to that, I really like diesel - perfect for my needs and wants


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## jdcolombo (Nov 16, 2008)

tlak77 said:


> I'm wondering if BMW is doing any tests with B20 Diesel on our cars; it's getting more challenging to get D2 in Illinois (or anything less than 5%). I have 3 stations which I get fuel from, but none of them is on my regular commute. If the things keep going as they are in IL our diesels will not be 50 state compliant, in my opinion, since it will not be possible to fuel up in IL. Thanks to large farm lobbyist and our great politicians
> Any one looking to buy 335d ? LOL


Virtually all the pumps in Champaign/Urbana, IL are labeled as containing 5%-20% biodiesel. The only exceptions I have found so far are the diesel pumps at the Meijers' stations marked "Premium Diesel" which a poster in another forum found was "straight" non-bio D2 with Schaffer additives for lubricity, anti-gel, and cetane enhancement. Interestingly, it is the same price as the bio-diesel located a couple of pumps away.

I hope BMW is testing higher biodiesel blends. The interesting thing is that my dealer filled up our X5 at a pump across the street from the dealership marked "5%-20% biodiesel." I'm going to use the Meijer's Premium Diesel from here on, but as a precaution, I'm probably going to change the oil every 6,000 mi/6 months. Small price to pay for peace of mind.

John C.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

jdcolombo said:


> Virtually all the pumps in Champaign/Urbana, IL are labeled as containing 5%-20% biodiesel. The only exceptions I have found so far are the diesel pumps at the Meijers' stations marked "Premium Diesel" which a poster in another forum found was "straight" non-bio D2 with Schaffer additives for lubricity, anti-gel, and cetane enhancement. Interestingly, it is the same price as the bio-diesel located a couple of pumps away.
> 
> I hope BMW is testing higher biodiesel blends. The interesting thing is that my dealer filled up our X5 at a pump across the street from the dealership marked "5%-20% biodiesel." I'm going to use the Meijer's Premium Diesel from here on, but as a precaution, I'm probably going to change the oil every 6,000 mi/6 months. Small price to pay for peace of mind.
> 
> John C.


I'd go freaking nuts over this and complain to any/every gov't (Federal/State) office that will listen.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

Doubt they would care if the bulk of the diesel vehicles can run on the stuff. Seems the new Fords can based on my prior comment about their fender badges, would be curious if the makers of the big rigs make similar claims about what they can be ran on.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> Doubt they would care...


 Well, they care; but not in our favor. Elections/politicians are sponsored by contributors that expect something back in return :rofl:


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## jdcolombo (Nov 16, 2008)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> I'd go freaking nuts over this and complain to any/every gov't (Federal/State) office that will listen.


The key there is "that will listen." In Illinois, that is zero. Easier to get BMW's engineers to do some testing on B20. I can't buy straight gasoline in Illinois either - everything is at least 10% ethanol, and E85 is becoming more prevalent.

John C.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I thought ethanol was put in gas to replace some chemical that was proven to be bad for us. If that is true then I do not understand how stations sell gas with no ethanol. But then I see people online talking of such stations.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Snipe656 said:


> I thought ethanol was put in gas to replace some chemical that was proven to be bad for us. If that is true then I do not understand how stations sell gas with no ethanol. But then I see people online talking of such stations.


Ethanol is an oxygenate and replaces MTBE. It's used to lessen the amount of CO, smog, etc.

IIRC there is no longer a federal mandate requiring oxygenates, but many large cities and some states subscribe to the min % in order to meet their clean air targets.

The car markers who sell vehicles which run predom on Ethanol (E85) receive a pass on some portion of their CAFE related fines. This of course doesn't include the heavy subsidies the ethanol industry receives.

What is soo funny is that if the Mafia had a program like this the DOJ wold prosecute them under RICO. Too bad we can't do the same to the US Gov't.


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