# No manual tranny on the E60 M5?!



## Guest (Mar 3, 2003)

Reading Edmunds.com's "Future Telling" blurb on the E60, they mention that the upcoming M5 will be SMG-only.

Could this be true? Could BMW add yet another reason to the growing list of reasons to forsake the brand forever? And would Nate even consider an M5 without a third pedal?


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

You're getting your future BMW info from Edmunds?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2003)

atyclb said:


> *You're getting your future BMW info from Edmunds? *




You may not have noticed but I did add, "Could this be true?"

While not a solid source on future models, they do tend to be more conservative in their reporting than, say, AutoSpies.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I haven't read any info on that regard yet.

As far as I know (from the articles I've read) there's no confirmation that the upcoming M5 will only be available with SMG transmission.


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Wasn't there a blurb here awhile ago quoting BMW as saying that the SMG will be the only manual available in the future?

It was a quote out of Autoweek or something


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Doesn't make sense.

The spy shots of the up coming 5'er in testing shows an interior with a 5 speed manual AND a clutch pedal. If the regular 5'er comes with clutch pedal manual then I don't see why BMW will stick the M5's with just SMG only.


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

The HACK said:


> *Doesn't make sense.
> 
> The spy shots of the up coming 5'er in testing shows an interior with a 5 speed manual AND a clutch pedal. If the regular 5'er comes with clutch pedal manual then I don't see why BMW will stick the M5's with just SMG only. *


Hey, the CSL is. They think it's the "ultimate" in performance. :tsk:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Mystikal said:


> *Hey, the CSL is. They think it's the "ultimate" in performance. :tsk: *


Under 8 minutes on the Nurburgring is pretty convincing for me :dunno:


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> *Under 8 minutes on the Nurburgring is pretty convincing for me :dunno: *


That's the thing. Like Nate, they base peformance on lap times. I think in everyday high-po driving, feel is a lot more important than .5km/h out of a corner.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> *That's the thing. Like Nate, they base peformance on lap times. I think in everyday high-po driving, feel is a lot more important than .5km/h out of a corner. *


Until you have spent some time with an SMG, you have no idea how the "feel" is.

And it involves you with the driving experience just as much as a manual, just differently. I have driven manual tranny performance crs for a LONG time (hate to actually post the number of years  ), but SMG is awesome. Everytime I drive the car I am amazed with how sweet it is.

If I had only one car, it would be SMG, no doubt about it.


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> *Until you have spent some time with an SMG, you have no idea how the "feel" is.
> 
> And it involves you with the driving experience just as much as a manual, just differently. I have driven manual tranny performance crs for a LONG time (hate to actually post the number of years  ), but SMG is awesome. Everytime I drive the car I am amazed with how sweet it is.
> 
> If I had only one car, it would be SMG, no doubt about it. *


I have no counter to that, I haven't gotten to touch an SMG car yet. In theory though, I can't picture myself liking it.

I really like the clutch pedal.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> *Until you have spent some time with an SMG, you have no idea how the "feel" is.
> 
> And it involves you with the driving experience just as much as a manual, just differently. I have driven manual tranny performance crs for a LONG time (hate to actually post the number of years  ), but SMG is awesome. Everytime I drive the car I am amazed with how sweet it is.
> 
> If I had only one car, it would be SMG, no doubt about it. *


And I agree with that 100%. SMG is beyond awesome. I would just like to have the choice of actually being able to order a car with a third pedal that's all, despite the fact that my next manual will most likely be an SMG to accomodate Mrs HACK.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Mystikal said:


> *That's the thing. Like Nate, they base peformance on lap times. *


Ugh, drag me into this....

If there isn't a more objective measure, I haven't heard of it :dunno:


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## toshweir27 (Jan 4, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> *Until you have spent some time with an SMG, you have no idea how the "feel" is.
> 
> And it involves you with the driving experience just as much as a manual, just differently. I have driven manual tranny performance crs for a LONG time (hate to actually post the number of years  ), but SMG is awesome. Everytime I drive the car I am amazed with how sweet it is.
> 
> If I had only one car, it would be SMG, no doubt about it. *


Never driven an SMG but a friend of a friend just purchased a '02 M3 with SMG and he swears it's better than the traditional manual. He was skeptical at first but after a month he's sold on it. He grew up driving performance cars with manuals. His last car was a 540 6spd and his dad has an old Dino. The SMG shifting and reponse is just so much quicker.

I'd still be disappointed if BMW failed to offer the traditional manual 6spd. Just the maintenance on an SMG if something went wrong would be horrendous. The computer really takes over the whole process.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> *I have no counter to that, I haven't gotten to touch an SMG car yet. In theory though, I can't picture myself liking it.
> 
> I really like the clutch pedal. *


I don't miss it at all. It is not like anything you have driven, it truely is a third type of transmission. Just like a CVG tranny will not be another automatic.

And if you track, you will be amazed at how much time you actually spend downshifting for corners and how much concentration doing that takes. And I have been double clutch downshifting for longer than some of the board members have been alive (unfortunately  ).

Just amazing to run an SMG car, even in daily driving.

For others, I doubt that the manual will go away soon, as the SMG uses the same tranny and clutch setup, so the ability to offer both is very simple and inexpensive.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

@Mystikal

FYI, Nurburgring is not a 40 km straight track. It's one of the most difficult race tracks in the world.

As Nate indicated, there's no better way to measure the performance based on speed, acceleration and handling. 

And believe me, Nurburgring IS may be one of the best tracks where you can see whether a sports car have the balls or not.


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> *@Mystikal
> 
> FYI, Nurburgring is not a 40 km straight track. It's one of the most difficult race tracks in the world.
> 
> ...


I never said anything about the track. I'm just saying that fractional differences in times don't interest me.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Mystikal said:


> *I never said anything about the track. I'm just saying that fractional differences in times don't interest me. *


It may not interest you, but those fractional times are the best criteria when comparing performance.


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> *It may not interest you, but those fractional times are the best criteria when comparing performance. *


That's like the moonroof issue. People say they don't order the moonroof for performance reasons, but in reality unless they drove the car BACK TO BACK with one differently equipped they would never tell the difference. Yeah, the lighter roof may result in 1 degree less body lean in a 60km/h hairpin, but that doesn't matter at all in reality.

I drive my car to get from point A to point B, and sometimes have fun and end up at Z. The time it takes to get there really doesn't mean much. I could have a hell of a lot more fun in a Miata than a 540i/6. The 540 sure has a lot faster lap times, though.

And I'm surprised you are arguing on that side. You ordered a B3 instead of an M3, which IIRC is noticeably faster.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Err, Mazda Miata vs 540i is not a good example, IMO. Two different animals  

Anyway, I wasn't talking about personal preferences, but about facts how you compare the performance.

On the other hand, M3 is not 'noticeably' faster than the B3S, the first tests showed that they have almost identical times  (apart from the fact that B3S is not electronically limited) - No flames here, I'm not going to discuss M3 vs B3S -


BTW, M3 CSL is 30 seconds faster than the 'stock' M3 on the Nurburgring. 

Is it a 'fractional' difference ?


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