# Just how exclusive will the ZHP package be?



## BradATL (Apr 30, 2003)

*ZHP vs. M3 price???*



The HACK said:


> A fully optioned out 330i with ZHP as one of the options will cost MORE than a stripper E46 M3 with SMG-II. Who in their right mind would purchase a 330i with ZHP option when it's likely it'll cost MORE than a similarly optioned out E46 M3? :thumbdwn:
> 
> IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.


Speaking of not making sense, I didn't understand what you were trying to say. Are you saying a well-equipped 330iZHP costs more than a similarly optioned out M3?

I just ordered a "stripper" M3 (only 3 options are metallic paint, leather, and alum trim) and the MSRP incl gaz guzzler and destination is $50,070. IIRC, a loaded ZHP has an MSRP in the mid-$40's.

If I misunderstood your post, then pls disregard my comments.


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## GeoMystic (Aug 21, 2002)

The HACK said:


> A fully optioned out 330i with ZHP as one of the options will cost MORE than a stripper E46 M3 with SMG-II


 :nono: 
Not according to BMW it doesn't

330i with: ZHP, CWP, Navigation, PDC, Xenon Lights and Moonroof
*$44,770*

M3 with non-metallic paint and SMGII
*$49,595*


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> For the record I know that the ZHP is just an option, however BMW literature states that 1000 will be produced with 6-speed and 3000 produced with step (or SMG?). It looks like the option will carry over to the MY2004 330i. The literature also claims that it *could be * a much sought after collectors item in the future. I know that there are other ZHP drivers in Houston, I have yet to see one on the road. Significant considering that every other car in Houston is a 3er (or an SUV). Does anyone with intimate knowledge know just how many ZHP optioned 330's will hit the road? Or is it just an option, no limited production, you want it you got it?
> 
> Love mine, just wish I could get it out of 3rd on the way to work. :thumbup:


The tweaked engine is the fun bit; this may have some residual exlusivity status on the second-hand market, and definitely with the enthusiast community; but the bodykit and interior trim are mostly ten a penny. The marketing gumph will say what is necessary to get buyers to spend their money on a 330i Performance Pack, even if that means spinning a line.

It's somewhat akin to a UK classic mag saying, as some have in the past, that a (for example) 1994 Chevy Lumina V6 in taxi spec is a rare collectable, on account of there not being any - in the UK.


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## BradATL (Apr 30, 2003)

The HACK said:


> There are 4,000 M3s produced a year and shipped to the U.S. If this thread about ZHP being EXCLUSIVE is true, then the 330i with ZHP option will be HARDER to get than the E46 M3. What do you think the dealerships will do? Mark the 330i with ZHP options up $5,000. That puts the 330i with the ZHP option SQUARELY in the M3's price range.
> 
> That's the point I'm driving at. Why would BMW limit the allocation of ZHP package to only a smaller subset of 330i's? IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.


OK, now I understand your point. Definitely much clearer in your second post.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

GeoMystic said:


> :nono:
> Not according to BMW it doesn't
> 
> 330i with: ZHP, CWP, Navigation, PDC, Xenon Lights and Moonroof
> ...


You can bend the figures any way you like, to suit any argument.

316i Sport (like that Performance Package without the engine/diff), Xenon, Nav, Estoril Blue metallic paint, sunroof, Nappa, HK: £28k.

Base 330i (halogens, tape deck, six speakers, metallic paint, cloth): £27k.


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## GeoMystic (Aug 21, 2002)

The HACK said:


> Maybe BMW SHOULD limit production of the package. I mean, we're already getting customers and buyers complaining that their ZHP trunk release doesn't work, or that their special ZHP tires are low on ZHP air, or what type of special ZHP tires they should use. Might as well take advantage of this once in a blue moon marketing opportunity.


That is funny!! :rofl: :rofl:


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

I too have that same brochure that talked about the limited production of the Performance Package. I am good friends with the Sales Manager at my local BMW dealership and he gave me the brochure back in February. He told me that this brochure was not available to the public, however he game me one because he knew how interested I was in the Performance Package. This brochure came out before the Performance Package even hit the production lines. I too am really interested if BMWNA decided to stick with these numbers or if they decided to produce more.


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## r2saint (Feb 3, 2003)

The HACK said:


> My scenario is based on the dealers slapping on a mark-up for the "EXCLUSIVITY" of ZHP package, if indeed it's true BMW is only supplying 1,000 ZHP in manual, period. That's fewer than 1 ZHP per dealership. That's fewer than last year's # of Z8s produced. How much do you think a dealership will charge for mark-up above MSRP if indeed the ZHP is going to be limited in production?
> 
> Maybe BMW SHOULD limit production of the package. I mean, we're already getting customers and buyers complaining that their ZHP trunk release doesn't work, or that their special ZHP tires are low on ZHP air, or what type of special ZHP tires they should use. Might as well take advantage of this once in a blue moon marketing opportunity.


Take a Xanax... Who knows what, if any, truth there is to the statement that production will be limited? Its doubtful, right? Common sense - its a 330i with a few performance tweaks - they'll build it if you want it. The dealer will tell you basically what they think you want to hear. ARE there any dealers slapping a mark-up on it? I haven't heard anyone having to pay MSRP (or over)...

BTW, Why are you comparing a fully optioned 330i with a stripped M3 - what sense does that make? Options are always wicked expensive...

Dude, you have some real issues with this performance package thing. Try and relax...


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Andy said:


> I too have that same brochure that talked about the limited production of the Performance Package. I am good friends with the Sales Manager at my local BMW dealership and he gave me the brochure back in February. He told me that this brochure was not available to the public, however he game me one because he knew how interested I was in the Performance Package. This brochure came out before the Performance Package even hit the production lines. I too am really interested if BMWNA decided to stick with these numbers or if they decided to produce more.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from the brochure :


To put it quite bluntly, those figures are total BS. I just ran a locate for 2004 330i's with ZHP nationwide, and there are currently 760 matches in the pipeline. Considering that this represents vehicles on order up to vehicles in dealer inventory (which there shouldn't be yet at this point) and every state in between, I'd say it's impossible that those numbers are true. Keep in mind, these numbers represent September and October (and possibly a few November) production slots. Since they'll be building 2004 models until August, and I don't know of any notice that ZHP will be dropped before then, I think it's likely you'll see many more than what you see there.

In addition, there are still 191 2003 models in the pipeline, and I have no clue how many have been delivered since it was released. I'd say there have been at bare minimum 700 sold (allowing about 2 per dealer)-- this number is likely higher.

Add all these numbers up, and you'll see that there were probably 1000 alone in the 2003 model year (once again, a light estimate) and there are already 760 in the pipeline for MY04, quite early on.

If you are waiting for the ZHP to turn in to a rare collector's item, you'll be waiting for a very long time.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

The HACK said:


> Hm...It's mid-September '03, where are the 3,000 AUTOMATIC ZHPs due to appear? Wouldn't someone already have ordered the ZHP package in an AUTOMATIC by now?


Of the 760 cars I talked about in the pipeline for MY04, there are 262 optioned with "205-- Automatic Transmission", and 498 with the 6-speed manual.


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## GeoMystic (Aug 21, 2002)

andy_thomas said:


> You can bend the figures any way you like, to suit any argument.
> 
> 316i Sport (like that Performance Package without the engine/diff), Xenon, Nav, Estoril Blue metallic paint, sunroof, Nappa, HK: £28k.
> 
> Base 330i (halogens, tape deck, six speakers, metallic paint, cloth): £27k.


I don't understand what you are saying by "bend" I am not "bending" the figures. I responded to a post that stated a base M3 with SMGII costs less than a 330i with ZHP and every option. Even though The Hack cleared up his post and all is understood now, those numbers I posted are straight from www.BMWUSA.com. I am not subtracting the options from the M to make it more affordable in comparo to the 330i ZHP. If that is what you mean. I am responding to a post with facts, not changing them around.


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## LouT (Jun 11, 2003)

The HACK said:


> I'd like to gauge interest in how many ZHP owners here would like this badge before they go into production. I may get a production sample in the next few weeks and will mock up the badge on a local (So Cal) 330i and take picture and post here.
> 
> What do you guys think? :thumbup:


I'd be interested in the bigger badge.

Thanks!


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

The HACK said:


> Hm...It's mid-September '03, where are the 3,000 AUTOMATIC ZHPs due to appear? Wouldn't someone already have ordered the ZHP package in an AUTOMATIC by now? That article/brochure doesn't look like an excerp out of any BMW literature I've ever seen, it reads and looks more like an article or excerp out of Automobile magazine or something like that. :dunno:
> 
> Heck, if this is something OFFICIAL wouldn't you think Shafer or TedW would've given us the scoop a month ago, especially since it's now September and these supposed allocation changes would have occured by now? :thumbdwn:
> 
> Sounds like something MARKETING would cook up to drive up sales. Boy people are gullible sometimes.


I don't know what your problem is with people who own the 330i Performance Package... but it's quite evident. You're making yourself look like a 16 year-old brat who's mommy won't buy him a ZHP.  CHILL OUT!!

Personally, I could care less if you believe this brochure came from BMWNA. I could prove you wrong by scanning all 11 pages of this little booklet, but it's not really worth my time.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Andy said:


> I too have that same brochure that talked about the limited production of the Performance Package. I am good friends with the Sales Manager at my local BMW dealership and he gave me the brochure back in February. He told me that this brochure was not available to the public, however he game me one because he knew how interested I was in the Performance Package. This brochure came out before the Performance Package even hit the production lines. I too am really interested if BMWNA decided to stick with these numbers or if they decided to produce more.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from the brochure :


That's a pretty specious claim for a cost option! The 2002tii sold in stacks of countries and was categorically a different model with different engine technology. It just doesn't compare. The PP engine has 10 more hp; nice, but I bet the production tolerance is greater than that. Any manual 330i (or 320d, or 330d) has a six-speed 'box these days, and even the shorter final drive can be specified as an option in some other markets.

Here's one: M3 GT, 1995, a run-out of the original 3.0 litre M3 with a 295 bhp 3.0 engine, instead of 286 bhp. Not badged "M3 GT" (no badge at all, in fact) and available only in one colour - BRG. A LOT less built than any number of 330is with the PP option box ticked. Added value on 2nd-hand market? A few hundred quid, spec for spec, and that premium would be erased in a second if the condition wasn't so good.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

The HACK said:


> I don't know why all the "ZHP" owners get all worked up and upset when all I'm trying to do is clarify a rumor. We've heard from various reliable sources that this rumor is simply unfounded. What's a little probing going to HURT your claim? Along with all the numbers and information posted it just doesn't add up.
> 
> Don't get upset because I question the source. If you CAN back it up, back it up. Until then I'd be inclined to believe what SARAFIL had posted.
> 
> ...


Hack,

I'm not just talking about this thread, but it seems every ZHP thread that has been posted in this forum, you seem to be one of the first to reply or at least you seem to have the most replies in the ZHP threads.

You seem to be stereo typing everyone who owns a 330i ZHP. I'm not sure why, but it is very noticeable and frankly I don't know anyone that enjoys being stereo typed, me especially!! I am unaware of what other ZHP owners have said to you (or others) about their car that has made you so bitter, but please, please, please DO NOT lump all 330i ZHP owners into that same category, think that we all have the same opinions. Frankly, it pisses me off!!

Did I purchase my 330i ZHP because I thought it was going to be this great collector's item? HECK NO!! I bought it because BMW currently doesn't make a four door e46 M3, and the 330i ZHP is the next best thing. I wanted a new, four door, performance BMW for under $50k. The ZHP meet those needs. If I didn't need/want four doors I would have spent a little more and got the e46 M3 (in fact I almost did that anyway).

As for the excerpt I posted... the reason I did that was to show everyone what BMWNA claimed. I meant that to be proof that BMWNA made the claim, not proof that it's true. I'm just as curious as everyone else.

As for the brochure... when I get home I will scan the front cover and the page that I took the except from and post the pics. Scanning the whole darn thing would just be too time consuming (and maybe violating some copyright laws, not sure). I hope that will be proof that the except came from BMWNA, if not please let me know what will.

Look, I apologize for jumping down your throat earlier, but I was pretty upset at the time for being stereo typed. Please, please, please do your best to not do that, it's not fair to the people being stereo typed.


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## Kiliozo (Jul 25, 2003)

Andy said:


> I don't know what your problem is with people who own the 330i Performance Package... but it's quite evident. You're making yourself look like a 16 year-old brat who's mommy won't buy him a ZHP.  CHILL OUT!!
> 
> Personally, I could care less if you believe this brochure came from BMWNA. I could prove you wrong by scanning all 11 pages of this little booklet, but it's not really worth my time.


Andy,

Do yourself a favor and ignore comments from such haters that are so green with envy that they seem to zero in on all "ZHP" threads with very childish sarcastic remarks about the ZHP being an option, as if we didn't already know that. On the other hand maybe all he wants is a pat on the back for emphatically pointing out that the ZHP is an option.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

:tsk: 

Relax people. 

As much as I sympathize with other ZHP owners, the reality is that the numbers look fishy. I personally don't believe them. Who knows, maybe BMWNA really meant to limit production, but then realized sales were high and junked the idea. Whatever. 

Bottomline, statistically, just from the number of ZHP owners in this board, those numbers seem out of whack. I was one of the first ones to be interested in the ZHP and to place an order for it. That doesn't change the fact that those numbers seem wrong. We'll see in time about its exclusivity/resale/demand.

As far as the suspension stuff. I plan on swinging by the dealership today and bringing my calipers (to measure spacing of spring coils) and a pen and paper. I will find out if there is any difference.


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## r2saint (Feb 3, 2003)

Andy said:


> Hack,
> 
> I'm not just talking about this thread, but it seems every ZHP thread that has been posted in this forum, you seem to be one of the first to reply or at least you seem to have the most replies in the ZHP threads.
> 
> ...


Hack - I want to get something straight: I think all of us here appreciate that you and others have been willing to do research when you smell something fishy. Frankly, I don't believe that BMW would specifically limit production, but it may be that they PRODUCE a certain # and let others ORDER the car. Kind of a blend of being able to state its a limited production car, while still being able to sell as many as the market demands. This is just a guess.

Are the suspension components different: I don't know - I haven't seen ANYTHING that conclusively shows that all components are exactly the same or completely different or somewhere in between (Springs). Could be the gas shocks are tuned differently as you have pointed out (again, thanks for the research). Could be it is completely the 18" wheels. Could be many things. Car and Driver tested the car and it turned in some pretty good numbers. Thats enough for me.

The anamosity that you are getting from people (Andy and myself) is based on the fact that you have practically driven us crazy in your 7000 some posts by never missing an opportunity to give us your feelings on the ZHP package. Fine, you think its a marketing ploy. Fine, you think there are really no changes from the 330i sport package - maybe there are none. Fine. At some point, are you ever going to tire of this? I ask only because a few of us newbies are ZHP owners - and we would simply like to be a part of this board w/o constantly hearing how our cars are marketing ploys - which, in some people's interpretation, insinuates being a sucker. Again, just my feelings - its a free society and you can continue your crusade as you see fit...


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

r2saint said:


> ... I ask only because a few of us newbies are ZHP owners...


I always found it curious that owners of the E46 330i with the ZHP option label themselves as ZHP owners. My E46 323ci had the premium package and the sport package yet I never labeled myself as a PP/SP owner. I'd usually refer to my car as an E46, 3'er, 323ci... or more recently yet denounced Dinan 3. 

Whatever, we're all on the same 'playing field' so to speak.

I suggest we rehash the 1st generation M5 debate (the one that BMW said there were only going to be a total of 500 made, IIRC). 

In the mean time, why can't we all just get along? :grouphug:


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

BMW tries to throw a bone to the BMW driving enthusiasts and builds the ZHP, and what happens... you have people BS that this car is nothing but corporate marketing. IMO in this day and age of over the top luxury items the ZHP is a refreshing package, people should give BMW credit for building this car.


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Artslinger said:


> Well I plan on buying a used ZHP in a couple of years.


I'll have a Silver/Gray natural brown one waiting for you in about 3 1/2 years w/ about 35k miles on it. :thumbup:


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

xspeedy said:


> What you guys are forgetting is that there aren't that many enthusiasts out there, so trying to hook up with one is hard. You need to market to the masses because that is going to be 95% of who is interested in buying a 330i. Besides, the BMW enthusiast would probably rather have a new E90 as opposed to a 2-year old E46.
> 
> Most buyers of the 330i are going to be soccer moms and yuppies, not hard core BMW enthusiasts. This vast majority of the population does not value the ZHP option.
> 
> Why do you think the 325i gets better realized resale than the 330i? There are fewer 330i cars so I should get more money, right? Wrong! It is harder to find someone out of the population of unenthusiasts that cares or appreciates the additional power. They certainly won't pay $4,000 more for it.


I've got a six speed sports sedan...I know already that most BMW buyers aren't interested in my car. Then from that group include the people who like the handling, exhaust, etc.

But in the end it won't matter as I'm fairly sure my ZHP will end up turned in at lease end. While the car's fun it's already showing BMW bugaboos and quite frankly I'm hating the fact that I drive a car with the BMW stigma.


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## EZ (Feb 27, 2003)

The argument over the ZHP worthiness seems to have boiled down to its resale value. Let me remind the resale zealots that they should have bought a Honda instead of a BMW. I bought mine because I really liked the package and because I do not plan to trade the car for years. The resale value is of no importance to me.

I thought about buying the M3 instead, but at the end I decided that a 330i with ZHP is more attractive to me. Here is why. 
1. I was buying a daily driver and not a track car, which values power at all cost over reliability. The M car has a finicky engine, which will be a pain to maintain in the long run.
2. Under most street driving conditions (RPM below 5000), the M3 has only marginal advantage over the 330i ZHP – 260 vs. 220 lb-ft torque (less than 20 advantage). Granted, the M car with its 333 ponies shines at 7800 RPM (almost 50% gain over the 330 ZHP), but I will rarely use this regime anyway.
3. The M car uses more gas and it pollutes a bit more. I can afford the gas, but hate to support the middle-eastern sheiks and pollute unnecessarily. The same way goes the guzzler tax – I hate to finance the Uncle’s Sam horrible inefficiency.
4. And last, – the 330i ZHP is 5-10 $K less than the M3, plus I could get an additional ED discount. 

I thought that the value of the ZHP package is quite reasonable over that for the SP. If someone disagrees, fine. Don’t buy it, but also don’t try to convince those who did that they are suckers. It sounds too much like sour grapes to me. I could write a similar essay on why those who bought private jets or 150 ft ocean yachts are suckers too. Give me a break!


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

EZ said:


> The argument over the ZHP worthiness seems to have boiled down to its resale value. Let me remind the resale zealots that they should have bought a Honda instead of a BMW. I bought mine because I really liked the package and because I do not plan to trade the car for years. The resale value is of no importance to me.
> 
> I thought about buying the M3 instead, but at the end I decided that a 330i with ZHP is more attractive to me. Here is why.
> 1. I was buying a daily driver and not a track car, which values power at all cost over reliability. The M car has a finicky engine, which will be a pain to maintain in the long run.
> ...


 :beerchug: :thumbup:


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

I think the ZHP looks great. To those who say a future buyer wont appreciate it, I say BS. I get stares from current E46 owners ALL the time. The car, maybe because it is Imola red, when it is clean and has the wheels nice and clean simply drops jaws. Period. Even from people who don't know much about BMW's yet have seen E46's everywhere. 

Now, will a buyer pay the extra money for it? Who knows. Maybe the yuppie will like to hear the car is faster and "limited." I don't care, I am not planning in selling it. 

If I had bought that car as a track toy it would be a bad move. I rather get a regular 330i and put a much higher rear diff, even stiffer suspension, lighter wheels, etc. 

The ZHP is a great compromise between a street car and a track car, and that is how it will remain. I don't care if in 2 years I feel a stiffer suspension will improve my times. That car will not be modded. If I want a track toy, I will buy and/or mod another car. 

I love the looks, I love the alcantara, I love the black headliner, I love the Imola paint, I love the wheels, the steering wheel and I surely will take the better handling, gears, and power. The price to pay for that was a bargain in my opinion. My opinion is the only one that matters. Those who bought the car to sell it soon, good luck. I frankly don't care. All I know is that I couldn't be happier with my car. I have a bad feeling I will rarely get to say that about another car. It is just too perfect.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

mbr129 said:


> I think the ZHP looks great. To those who say a future buyer wont appreciate it, I say BS. I get stares from current E46 owners ALL the time. The car, maybe because it is Imola red, when it is clean and has the wheels nice and clean simply drops jaws. Period.


I get that too. Lots of people talk to me in parking lots too. Unfortunately, this just annoys me as I wonder why some SDSU co-eds would talk to me now but ignored me when I had the Jetta. Darn golddiggers.



> The ZHP is a great compromise between a street car and a track car, and that is how it will remain. I don't care if in 2 years I feel a stiffer suspension will improve my times. That car will not be modded. If I want a track toy, I will buy and/or mod another car.


Funny just this morning I cut behind some slow moving semis, hit second gear and exploded forward before slipping through a gap and zooming through a yellow light that I would have missed. With the engine/exhaust growling, Ozomatli on the radio and my car humming along I reflected on how much damn fun this car is. Day after day it's mindblowingly fun.


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## r2saint (Feb 3, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> I get that too. Lots of people talk to me in parking lots too. Unfortunately, this just annoys me as I wonder why some SDSU co-eds would talk to me now but ignored me when I had the Jetta. Darn golddiggers.
> 
> Funny just this morning I cut behind some slow moving semis, hit second gear and exploded forward before slipping through a gap and zooming through a yellow light that I would have missed. With the engine/exhaust growling, Ozomatli on the radio and my car humming along I reflected on how much damn fun this car is. Day after day it's mindblowingly fun.


Yes! Happy fun!! Clap like monkey! - I to just put my old Jetta up for sale. 
I've gotten a whole host of compliments on my new 330i ZHP. It was the most new car I could afford, and I wanted to keep it for a LONG time. Even a used M3 would have jacked up my insurance rates horribly.

I'm through making excuses! ITS A ZHP, A ZHP!!! DAMN YOU NAYSAYERS ALL TO HELL!!
I will now bask in its glory: LONG LIVE the ZHP!!!! - an absolute stunning achievement in the annuals of BMW history!

Just kidding, its a 330i - My Ritalin dosage needs adjusting...


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## Kiliozo (Jul 25, 2003)

EZ said:


> If someone disagrees, fine. Don't buy it, but also don't try to convince those who did that they are suckers. It sounds too much like sour grapes to me. I could write a similar essay on why those who bought private jets or 150 ft ocean yachts are suckers too. Give me a break!


Well said. I'm really having a blast with my "330i with ZHP option". This car definately rocks


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## LouT (Jun 11, 2003)

The HACK said:


> Not if they purchase my 330izhp badges. :thumbup:
> 
> I do plan on limiting the production run on these badges to 1,000 (well, my vendor require DEPOSIT down on quantities larger than that), unless demand is significantly higher than that (I doubt I'll ever be able to sell all 1,000 badges) these will be a one time, single run only badges.
> 
> By the way, no sarcasm here. I am seriously contemplating producing these badges for sale and have vendors already lined up. Seriously, if you DO own a 330i with ZHP package, you might want to consider them to let the world know that you don't just have a plain jane BMW, but you have a *ZHP*.


I want to know why BMW didn't bring back the 'S' model instead of PP or ZHP? 330iS would have fit the ZHP a lot better than recent (E36) S models.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

mbr129 said:


> I think the ZHP looks great. To those who say a future buyer wont appreciate it, I say BS. I get stares from current E46 owners ALL the time. The car, maybe because it is Imola red, when it is clean and has the wheels nice and clean simply drops jaws. Period. Even from people who don't know much about BMW's yet have seen E46's everywhere.....
> 
> I love the looks, I love the alcantara, I love the black headliner, I love the Imola paint, I love the wheels, the steering wheel and I surely will take the better handling, gears, and power. The price to pay for that was a bargain in my opinion. My opinion is the only one that matters. Those who bought the car to sell it soon, good luck. I frankly don't care. All I know is that I couldn't be happier with my car. I have a bad feeling I will rarely get to say that about another car. It is just too perfect.


Even I have only owned it for about 5 months, I already had 2 people waiting for mine in 3-4 years. Believe it or not, the thing that most attracted to them is the alcantara interior (yes, including the steering wheel). I also got compliments on the interior from a E46 M3 owner while I was at a gas station. He said he really wishes his M3 had the alcantara instead of leather.

Exclusivity? I could care less. Had I wanted exclusivity, I would not have picked Titanium Silver.

Suspension? I thought we had pretty much confirmed that it is the same as the M-Sport Pkg II that is also available in other countries. What are we still debating? Are there anyone still arguing that there is no difference between the ZHP and the US 330i suspension? Have they ever driven one? I don't care about part numbers. The difference in both ride and handling is not subtle.

Last week I had a chance going up to Big Bear. For those non-Californians, it is a very fun (if nobody is in front of you) mountain road that has all kinds of curves and straights. Let me tell you, I have owned this car for 5 months and with 7k miles, but I have never explored its full potential until last week. This car, when driven in the upper rev band, is a completely different animal. You will only get about 70% of the car's potential if you are driving under 5k rpm. Above 5500 rpm to redline, this engine is simply exhilarating. It reminds me of the VTEC on my previous Integra Type-R. A '01 Nissan Maxima was trying to hang with me and he didn't stand a chance. On one straight passing lane, I put on 3rd and went all the way to 6800 rpm and he just totally disappeared.

I am very familiar with this road with my previous E36 M3/4, and I can tell you, if you know how to drive the ZHP (ie. always keep the rev in the upper band), you will have absolutely no problem hanging with the E36 M3. But if you drive it like a E36 M3, then you won't have any chance.

In fact, this month's Bimmer Magazine (Nov 03) has a very thorough review (7 pages including pics) of the ZHP. I think it is by far the best and most honest review I have read to date.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

LouT said:


> I want to know why BMW didn't bring back the 'S' model instead of PP or ZHP? 330iS would have fit the ZHP a lot better than recent (E36) S models.


The E36 "s" nomenclature denoted coupe in the States, and 16-valve engine everywhere else. (E36 318s were usually equipped with an 8-valver). So already you see that badging was partly in the hands of the importer, not the factory.

For the E46, badging seems to be the same across the board in all countries. ALL coupes are badged C-something (Cd or Ci), all convertibles are badged C-something, all compacts are badged t-something, and sedans and tourings are just badged either -something or x-something depending on whether they are RWD or 4WD.

A 330is means something in in the US; there is a precedent in the 535is. However since then BMW *NA* used 's' to denote coupe, and that wasn't that long ago. Probably not long ago enough for people *not* to ask why BMW (not necessarily the importer) keeps sprinkling letters over the rears of its cars.

However, it does strike me that making a separate, distinct model out of the 330i with Performance Pack - assuming it didn't cost them another $2m to federalise it as a separate model! - might actually underpin BMW NA's (frankly bullshit) claim that the 330i with Performance Pack compares in both note and rarity to the 2002tii. Which said "2002tii" on the back.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

GeoMystic said:


> I don't understand what you are saying by "bend" I am not "bending" the figures. I responded to a post that stated a base M3 with SMGII costs less than a 330i with ZHP and every option. Even though The Hack cleared up his post and all is understood now, those numbers I posted are straight from www.BMWUSA.com. I am not subtracting the options from the M to make it more affordable in comparo to the 330i ZHP. If that is what you mean. I am responding to a post with facts, not changing them around.


OK, I understand; sorry, I should have said "express" the figures, and mine was a general point. My point - to anyone who thought a 330i with PP was priced so high that comparisons with M3 became valid - was that such a comparison based purely on *potential* sticker price, where the equipment levels are openly adjusted in the quest for parity, is quite pointless.


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## r2saint (Feb 3, 2003)

mbr129 said:


> I think the ZHP looks great. To those who say a future buyer wont appreciate it, I say BS. I get stares from current E46 owners ALL the time. The car, maybe because it is Imola red, when it is clean and has the wheels nice and clean simply drops jaws. Period. Even from people who don't know much about BMW's yet have seen E46's everywhere.
> 
> Now, will a buyer pay the extra money for it? Who knows. Maybe the yuppie will like to hear the car is faster and "limited." I don't care, I am not planning in selling it.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :beerchug: :str8pimpi :drive: :yummy: :guitar: :supdude:


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## r2saint (Feb 3, 2003)

mkh said:


> Even I have only owned it for about 5 months, I already had 2 people waiting for mine in 3-4 years. Believe it or not, the thing that most attracted to them is the alcantara interior (yes, including the steering wheel). I also got compliments on the interior from a E46 M3 owner while I was at a gas station. He said he really wishes his M3 had the alcantara instead of leather.
> 
> Exclusivity? I could care less. Had I wanted exclusivity, I would not have picked Titanium Silver.
> 
> ...


Argh! here's the post that makes the break in period twice as bad... 7000 miles? Wow, you set the bar for restraint!


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

r2saint said:


> Argh! here's the post that makes the break in period twice as bad... 7000 miles? Wow, you set the bar for restraint!


It's not that I intentionally restrained from exploring it before the 7k mark. I did redline it quite a few times after the break-in period, but only limited to one or two shifts in very short moments. I just couldn't find a nice and long road with very few traffic to really open it up. Last week, I was able to do that for about an hour without much traffic bothering me. Very nice!


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> ...Uh, that's genius. I should pay an extra $1200 to drive a car I won't enjoy so it'll sell for $800 more 3 years down the road. I wonder if salesmen ever really think beyond a comission?


No they dont....


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## LouT (Jun 11, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> Funny just this morning I cut behind some slow moving semis, hit second gear and exploded forward before slipping through a gap and zooming through a yellow light that I would have missed. With the engine/exhaust growling, Ozomatli on the radio and my car humming along I reflected on how much damn fun this car is. Day after day it's mindblowingly fun.


Down into third, look for the gap then floor it - get around the 'moving obstacle' before they even know what was going on, hit forth at 85 and smile...all that in my enjoyable 325i 5sp. Just wonder what that same pass is going to be like when my ZHP gets here. (I am going to get a V1 with my CCA rebate...)

Exclusivity is nothing compared to how the collection of pieces work together. And everything I've read says the ZHP package works so I bit and when it gets here (about 10/20...) it will be my daily driver, grocery getter, and trip taker for a long time. Buying it will be a stretch financially but I knew BMW had me in mind when I read the about the ZHP 'package' over a year ago. I just hope it will be as well screwed together as the 325i has been.

MY $0.02


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## Evanzhp (May 31, 2003)

Please help me. The ZHP is far better than the sport package. I drove both 325's and 330's sport packages and could not make myself buy them. I waited a year and tried 2003's and still was not impressed. They were not aggressive enough. I drove G35 6MT, IS300, 6-speed Mercedes C320 and liked the handling and response of the IS300 best. Until.......

I drove the ZHP and ordered one just days latter.

I know this will upset a few M owners( I have had 2 E30 M3's ) but those cars are also "packages" based on a mass produced car. Yes, the modifications do go further, but it is just a package of modifications.

Anyone who believes an M car is a superior "package", has also been fooled by BMW. The E30 M cars I had are now worth 25% to 50% their original price. The rarer Sunbeam Tiger I had in college is now worth 400% to 800% it's original price. M cars are just more extensive and expensive "packages".

Will the ZHP be worth more later? To the mass market no, but to people who value it's unique interior, bodywork, engine, and suspension they will probably pay a little more for the right car.


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

Evanzhp said:


> Please help me. The ZHP is far better than the sport package. I drove both 325's and 330's sport packages and could not make myself buy them. I waited a year and tried 2003's and still was not impressed. They were not aggressive enough. I drove G35 6MT, IS300, 6-speed Mercedes C320 and liked the handling and response of the IS300 best. Until.......
> 
> I drove the ZHP and ordered one just days latter.
> 
> ...


The EVO VIII can be seen as a packaged over Lancer, but I would not compare the EVO package to the OZ Rally package, just as I would not compare the M package to the ZHP package. Some packages include substantial improvements to the mechanics and structure of the car while some packages give you special wheels, spoilers, body kits, seats, and emblems with perhaps a nominal bump in some performance aspect (2% stiffer suspension or 2% more HP).


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

Interesting debate. Has anyone driven both cars? (330i vs 330i w/ ZHP)

I have a 2002 330i that’s somewhat modded, and my friend has a 2003 330i w/zhp. For simplicity, I will just refer to my car as the SP and my friend’s car as the ZHP.

Over last weekend, I had the chance to share the ZHP with my friend at the Buttonwillow racetrack, and got 2 days of track time behind the wheels of a ZHP. I had 8 track days on my SP, including 2 days at the same track (Buttonwillow), running the same configuration.

Before you read on, I might as well state my conclusion – you can mod a regular SP and get performance much better than the ZHP performance with a lot less money. I don’t care about looks – it’s merely a subjective thing, and if you want exclusivity, you should go buy a body kit instead of a mass produced option package.

Acceleration – noticeable improvement over stock SP, but I had an ECIS intake in my SP that alleviates that somewhat. The ZHP does seem to rev faster and feel a little more responsive to the throttle. I think that can be solved with more aggressive software.

Shifter – does not even compare to my UUC short shifter. The throws were kinda short… but the shifts were not crisp.

Suspension – I don’t care about part numbers or whatever vs the SP. But the suspension was not firm enough for me going through the track. I can definitely feel the body roll. The ZHP suspension might be slightly firmer, but it’s equally “worthless” at the track as the SP suspension – it will need to go eventually.

Extra HP – I didn’t redline the car. It’s my friend’s car so I did not take it over 5500 rpm. No comment here.

Wheels – They look nice. Goes well with the car.

Body Kit – It looks nice too.

Interior – now, that’s very nice. I would love to have the alcantara steering wheel because it’s thick, sticky, and soaks up the sweat from my palms. It’s definitely made for performance driving. I will not need driving gloves for this steering wheel. But the alcantara interior (seats and such) was not sticky enough for me. I have a 4 point harness in my SP so there is definitely no comparison there.

I think that’s all the extra options of a ZHP over a regular SP. Oh, the 6th gear was very nice indeed. Saves gas. Definitely a plus over my 5 speed.

Personally, I will get a regular 330i w/SP and mod the hell out of it. To make a SP comparable to ZHP in terms of performance, I would put an intake ($300), software when available ($500), and alcantara steering wheel ($500) – cost $1300 vs $4000. Additional mods will include a short shifter ($200), suspension ($1200), anti roll bars ($300), track pads ($200), and 4 point harness ($300). All in cost will be $3500 – still cheaper than the zhp package price, and my modded car will be a much better car in terms of performance.

Personally, I think the zhp package is a clever marketing ploy – and a very successful one. I can take a stock 330i and really turn it into something much better than the ZHP in my opinion. But then, one can argue that I should get a 325i and throw a super charger in it to make it much better than the 330i. I think it’s a moot point. It’s just a car, and it’s the driver that’s the most important. The ZHP is a package, and a very comprehensive package. I just think it’s a very expensive package, given the things that are included in the package. If you don’t care about the body kit, the 18 inch wheels, and the interior, I think you will be better off getting the sport package.

As for resale value for cars with the ZHP package…. First of all the ZHP is only offered in manual transmission, chosen by about 3% of the BMW buyers. I think one can safely assume that the said 3% buyers are driving enthusiasts. Chances are that some of these enthusiasts will realize that they don’t need the body kit etc and look for more performance. In my opinion, the resale value will be lower due to relatively lower demand.

Just my honest opinion.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Galun said:


> ...Just my honest opinion.


I share almost 100% of your opinon. I already posted about how if you want a ZHP for the track it is a bad move. I got it for the blend of street comfort and track performance. Your math however does not account for anything cosmetic, nor the fact that this is a packagae out of the factory with full warranty and 100% stock. Furthermore, I would not buy a non-ZHP 330i based solely on just how ugly it looks. I deem it a necesity to upgrade the bumper. So, to me, when you take into acount the "necessary cosmetic upgrades," the ZHP becomes that much cheaper. Now add the interior, the exclusive color, the wheels, etc, etc...


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> I share almost 100% of your opinon. I already posted about how if you want a ZHP for the track it is a bad move. I got it for the blend of street comfort and track performance. Your math however does not account for anything cosmetic, nor the fact that this is a packagae out of the factory with full warranty and 100% stock. Furthermore, I would not buy a non-ZHP 330i based solely on just how ugly it looks. I deem it a necesity to upgrade the bumper. So, to me, when you take into acount the "necessary cosmetic upgrades," the ZHP becomes that much cheaper. Now add the interior, the exclusive color, the wheels, etc, etc...


Yes, very true.

I did say "To make a SP comparable to ZHP in terms of performance"... "If you don't care about the body kit, the 18 inch wheels, and the interior, I think you will be better off getting the sport package."... etc. I guess I should be more clear. I am well aware of the cosmestic upgrades, but I frown upon them and think of them as a waste of money anyways (personal opinion), so I didn't even figure it into my equation. I am just saying that in my book, the ZHP package is maybe worth $1300 or so, and I wil opt out of the cosmestic stuff given the option to do so. But you are absolutely right regarding my math.

:thumbup:


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

Galun said:


> Interesting debate. Has anyone driven both cars? (330i vs 330i w/ ZHP)


I did, extensively. In fact I did compare the 330i SP to the ZHP and the E36 M3/4. Do a search and you'll find it. Just to make it short and refresh everyone on my findings:

Acceleration: Noticeable improvement, rev faster, and more responsive.

Shifter: Shorter and more precise.

Horsepower: Yes, only 10, but very noticeable at the upper rev band.

Suspension: Firmer and significant improvement over the std sport.

Also, the perf pkg is $2700, not $3900 when you compare it to the sport pkg, which itself costs $1200. I understand your point on modding the car for track. As mbr said, it's a wrong move modding a ZHP for the track. If I were to go to track, I would have got a used E36 M3 and mod the hell out of it. For the sake of argument, you can even get a 325i and put in $20k of mods to outperform an E46 M3. Then why pay over $50k for an M3?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Galun said:


> Interior - now, that's very nice. I would love to have the alcantara steering wheel because it's thick, sticky, and soaks up the sweat from my palms. It's definitely made for performance driving. I will not need driving gloves for this steering wheel. But the alcantara interior (seats and such) was not sticky enough for me. I have a 4 point harness in my SP so there is definitely no comparison there.
> 
> I think that's all the extra options of a ZHP over a regular SP. Oh, the 6th gear was very nice indeed. Saves gas. Definitely a plus over my 5 speed.


If you really want good grip, (and keep your wheel from getting damp all the time and possibly smelly?) get driving gloves to go with the Alcantara wheel. :thumbup:

I don't think the 6th gear doesn't really end up saving gas compared to the 330i without the ZHP package since the drive ratio is different. The EPA mileage numbers are the same are they not?


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> If you really want good grip, (and keep your wheel from getting damp all the time and possibly smelly?) get driving gloves to go with the Alcantara wheel. :thumbup:
> 
> I don't think the 6th gear doesn't really end up saving gas compared to the 330i without the ZHP package since the drive ratio is different. The EPA mileage numbers are the same are they not?


Don't temp me with the gloves. I am already spending enough money... 

Humm, yeah I forgot about the different final drive ratio. I just always assumed that the final gear will help save some gas.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Galun said:


> Don't temp me with the gloves. I am already spending enough money...


Lookee here... what's this? :eeps: :angel:


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

doeboy said:


> Lookee here... what's this? :eeps: :angel:


Is that what you have?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Galun said:


> Is that what you have?


Yup...


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