# BMW USA sales down a brutal 18% for November - 10% for the year



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

Lets see what the BMW *GROUP* sales are for november when they are reported, and see if they continue the trend of record months from a group perspective. Every down month for the US this year has been a positive month overall for BMW (thus showing the US is not as important to BMW group as it might have been in the past).

For example, Octobers sales were down in the US 18 percent but group sales were up (for the 10th straight month) for a record month). I am going to bet right now that when group sales are reported November will be another record month (which is likely why the US december promotions are almost non existent). Why lose money chasing US sales when group sales are up (rhetorical question)?


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## guyinacar (Jun 26, 2016)

Certifying their entire US PHEV fleet as SULEVs under CARB would help BMW sales here. BMW has been a little too clever for its own good, IMHO, as they've built a set of vehicles that are, in effect, SULEV PHEVs in every way but the window sticker. That little sticker on a Toyota or Honda means that the manufacturer is responsible for powertrain compliance with CARB for much of the life of the vehicle (so it doesn't become a filth-belching Mad Max monstrosity on its third owner, and thus polluting Los Angeles). Traction batteries in a SULEV PHEV thus inherit a transferable 10 year, 150k mile OEM warranty in all CARB compliant states. In other words, in all of the states that are BMW's chief target demographic, they've avoided the lengthyCARB warranty obligation. BMW, in its wisdom, actually cut the bumper-to-bumper warranty this year from 4 years to 3 years, with a longer 8/100 on the battery. For the traction system, that's a fraction of what their competitors offer by virtue of the SULEV PHEV CARB window sticker. Alphabet soup, true. But guess what, BMW, the market noticed. We figured out what the acronyms mean, and we realized that your warranty isn't strong enough. Why don't you fix this gap, and make it retroactive?


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

guyinacar said:


> Certifying their entire US PHEV fleet as SULEVs under CARB would help BMW sales here. BMW has been a little too clever for its own good, IMHO, as they've built a set of vehicles that are, in effect, SULEV PHEVs in every way but the window sticker. That little sticker on a Toyota or Honda means that the manufacturer is responsible for powertrain compliance with CARB for much of the life of the vehicle (so it doesn't become a filth-belching Mad Max monstrosity on its third owner, and thus polluting Los Angeles). Traction batteries in a SULEV PHEV thus inherit a transferable 10 year, 150k mile OEM warranty in all CARB compliant states. In other words, in all of the states that are BMW's cheif target demographic, they've avoided the lengthyCARB warranty obligation. BMW, in its wisdom, actually cut the bumper-to-bumper warranty this year from 4 years to 3 years, with a longer 8/100 on the battery. For the traction system, that's a fraction of what their competitors offer by virtue of the SULEV PHEV CARB window sticker. Alphabet soup, true. But guess what, BMW, the market noticed. We figured out what the acronyms mean, and we realized that your warranty isn't strong enough. Why don't you fix this gap, and make it retroactive?


BMW's warranty is still four years or 50k miles. Only the free maintenance (oil changes, filters, wiper blades, and brakes) has been reduced to three years.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

BMW was breaking one sales record after another for years. Every party has to come to an end. Part of this might be low points in between "echoes" of the post-meltdown recovery sales boom, sort of like the birth rate "boomlettes" that happened in cycles after the post-war baby boom. This phenomenon would be amplified by BMW's 57% lease-rate, where the replacement cycles of the cars were more uniform.

Another factor is that the competition is getting better.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

I was in "my" dealership last week to have my Michelin PSS's installed. Buh-bye POS Goodyear LS-2 run-flats! But, I digress. 

It was spooky. There were only three customers in there for service, and nobody in the showroom (normal on a weekday morning, though... you generally need a job to afford a BMW).

The good news is that two of us are so amazed with the service there that we're buying more BMW's from them next year. I drove 190 miles, round trip, to have them install my tires. 

The other good news is that the only unscheduled service I've needed in 31k miles was what I thought was corroded exhaust tips, replaced under warranty. The new ones started doing the same thing, and I started experimenting with cleaning them. It turns out the corrosion was really just backed on crud. I didn't want to attack it with an abrasive polish. I eventually found that cleaner-wax got about 95% of the deposits off the new tips. I've described the reliability of my new BMW as "Toyota-like." I hope that continues.


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

I added some interesting numbers about BMW sales vs the competitors in November and for the year. Take a look and see what you think.

Tim


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## jnr (Nov 23, 2006)

With all due respect to BMW, I really feel that they have lost their way. As someone who has owned bimmers for thirty years, I can hardly recognize the brand. Vast numbers of bulbous beasts, insane model confusion, run flats everywhere unless you buy an M (as I have), it has become kinda like a bastardized mix of someone's nightmare of the Pontiac Aztek having mated with german machines. Compare this to Audi - a clean, well thought through brand progression. I mean, how many ugly GT SUVs does one company need? I understand that the car market has moved toward light trucks, but IMHO they would do far better if they cull a lot of the BS and get some focus. What are they now? The ultimate driving machine? The I got money but don't know or care how to drive but want to show off my ungainly mega truck company? Where is their pride in just doing something that handles and feels right (other than the M2, which is great but stands out almost by contrast).They should DO SUVs like everyone else, but they don't need 20 different and ungainly versions with huge repetition in each size range. Quality suffers, image suffers, and my desire to pick out one of the remaining good machines in their increasingly confused lineup also suffers.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

tim330i said:


> I added some interesting numbers about BMW sales vs the competitors in November and for the year. Take a look and see what you think.
> 
> Tim


That blows my "boomlette" theory.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

jnr said:


> With all due respect to BMW, I really feel that they have lost their way. As someone who has owned bimmers for thirty years, I can hardly recognize the brand. Vast numbers of bulbous beasts, insane model confusion, run flats everywhere unless you buy an M (as I have), it has become kinda like a bastardized mix of someone's nightmare of the Pontiac Aztek having mated with german machines. Compare this to Audi - a clean, well thought through brand progression. I mean, how many ugly GT SUVs does one company need? I understand that the car market has moved toward light trucks, but IMHO they would do far better if they cull a lot of the BS and get some focus. What are they now? The ultimate driving machine? The I got money but don't know or care how to drive but want to show off my ungainly mega truck company? Where is their pride in just doing something that handles and feels right (other than the M2, which is great but stands out almost by contrast).They should DO SUVs like everyone else, but they don't need 20 different and ungainly versions with huge repetition in each size range. Quality suffers, image suffers, and my desire to pick out one of the remaining good machines in their increasingly confused lineup also suffers.


BMW's wising up and offering a "Track Handling Package" on the non-M 2's, 3's, and 4's that include Michelin PSS's. But, no spare tire. The X1 offers non-RFT's as a no-cost option, and even throws in a mini-spare with them (in the U.S.). I'm really hoping they do that on the next X3, too. Non-M 5's and 7's don't get much track time. So, they're stuck with RFT's for the foreseeable future. They do offer mini-spares now, though.

Yeah, the latest crop of "truck-cars" are ungainly. But, M-B is copying BMW, because people want them. I saw a M-B "fastback SUV" GLE in a parking lot a few nights ago. It was hideous looking. But, it was an AMG and somebody gladly paid over $75k for it. (M-B's now selling two versions of AMG's: real AMG's with V8's, and "AMG-Lite's" with hopped up V6's.)

A lot of people complain about the hallowed German car companies building SUV's. But, people want them. Almost every $200k/year, married couple in the U.S. owns one. Frau Putzer's demanding one for her next car. SUV sales also keep the dealers healthy. SUV sales tend to be more steady during the bad times. Porsche's dealers stayed afloat during the melt-down because of SUV sales.

The proliferation of different models on the same platform is a product of market demand. Also, it's made more practical by automation of the design and manufacturing processes. The robots in Spartanburg can spot weld an X5 body together, and then do an X6 body right afterwards without any human intervention.


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## guyinacar (Jun 26, 2016)

guyinacar said:


> Certifying their entire US PHEV fleet as SULEVs under CARB would help BMW sales here.... and we realized that your warranty isn't strong enough. Why don't you fix this gap, and make it retroactive?





Autoputzer said:


> BMW's warranty is still four years or 50k miles. Only the free maintenance (oil changes, filters, wiper blades, and brakes) has been reduced to three years.


@Autoputzer, you are entirely correct. I mis-stated that. Sorry, and thank you for the correction.

That said, my point still stands. The PHEV warranty should be longer. Want more sales, BMW? Offer a longer powertrain warranty on the pluggable hybrid fleet.

That said, I also think my other assertion has been overtaken by the facts:

http://www.meca.org/regulation/epa-tier-3-and-california-lev-iii-rulemakings

This is pretty abstruse stuff, full of EPA and CARB engineering vernacular/jargon about bins, tiers, and credits. Not my field of expertise: I'm just a guy in a car. Near as I can figure, though, it looks like the Federal (EPA) and the CARB-compliant states are converging on the definition of "full useful life" (FUL) for a PZEV, and it can now be shorter than a decade ago - although the OEM gets fewer credits for overall fleet emissions, should they choose to offer the lower-durability OEM warranty on powertrain (and thus on the battery systems) of a PHEV.

Still, my point stands. BMW, learn from Kia. _ A superior OEM powertrain warranty means more sales of a thing people might otherwise not be inclined to trust yet._

The BMW/ZF PZEV product is good (actually, I think it's great, as you can see from my other posts). The default warranty is not good. It's ungood. Actually, there isn't even an option to uplift to 150,000 warranty on the battery (which is what you've always had for free on a Lexus in a CARB state).


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

guyinacar said:


> @Autoputzer, you are entirely correct. I mis-stated that. Sorry, and thank you for the correction.
> 
> That said, my point still stands. The PHEV warranty should be longer. Want more sales, BMW? Offer a longer powertrain warranty on the pluggable hybrid fleet.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that makes sense. The whole PZEV thing is lost on most outside of California. Outside of California, most people aren't any more apprehensive of the emission system repair cost than of the repair costs for the rest of the car.

When I first moved to Floriduh, I had a game to see how many days in a row that I would see a smoking car on my daily commute. One day I was sitting at a red light, and a cloud of smoke past me from behind my car. I turned around to see what the "smoking hooptie du jour" was. I was the only one at the light. I had an old Pontiac beater with dried valve stem seals. It'd occasionally put out a puff of smoke at start up or after a quick stop.


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## guyinacar (Jun 26, 2016)

Autoputzer said:


> Yeah, that makes sense. The whole PZEV thing is lost on most outside of California.


It's not just California. They started it. But other states followed suit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

But forget about the tailpipe for a second. The point is that whenever the battery system, as a whole, stops working in a PHEV, like my X5, the vehicle will still run on gas indefinitely... like for another decade. That's not true of a Tesla. That's why the battery system has enjoyed a terrific OEM warranty in, say, a Camry Hybrid for the last decade. That was true in all of the "CARB states," including Massachusetts, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Maryland, Oregon, and (of course) California.

Now, while I'm not equating a Camry Hybrid and a BMW 330e, the cold reality is that the market _will_ compare them. Shoppers will weigh all the pros and cons. I am of the opinion that BMW has a superior product, with dramatically better driving dynamics. I am also of the opinion that Toyota has a more reliable product. If BMW North America would like to close that gap (for the X5 40e, 330e, 740e, and the other PZEV products about to enter BMW's stable), then they should put their money where their mouth is, and back 'em with a better warranty - including on the '16 I already own.


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## jnr (Nov 23, 2006)

Autoputzer - Your comments about MB and the market are well taken. I still have to say, however, that BMW and MB have historically had different identities, and that Audi has also taken a third way. MB's primary identity has long been german engineered luxury - even with the AMGs, of which my wife and I have owned two, an SL55 and and E55. As for BMW's I have had many different sedans, wagons, and convertibles, M and non-M. I now have an M3 and an Audi S4 - which is probably the best all around car for daily driving of any of them. BMW had always been precision driving. I tend to think that BMW has more to lose when it segments the 3 series in two, with four door vehicles being 3 series and coupes and convertibles being 4 series, but then immediately adding a 4 series 4 door "coupe", and then adds countless GT and other strange models. More fundamentally, however, has been the loss of focus on being a driver's car company, which I attribute indirectly to the huge confusion in their product lineup. You are right - it is business, and it is their decision. I am just not sure that this is a good idea, and of the three primary german high end companies, I tend to feel that Audi is coming closer, at least in its S cars, to producing focused drivers cars. Thanks for your two cents, and thoughtful reply.


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## HPIA4v2 (Mar 30, 2006)

I hope 2017 will be the year of incentives :bigpimp:

$1500 option credit
0.9%
$1000 loyalty
etc

One can only dream


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## Robert Beers (Oct 18, 2016)

BMW is no longer the "it" car to own. Audi, without offering ultra-low lease offers, is still catching them in sales. While BMW's premium models are still amazing, the "normal" offerings no longer offer an amazing and connected drive like, say, an E90 328i did. Our Bavarian friends need to come up with a new strategy if they want to keep from slipping any farther.


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## kiznarsh (Dec 8, 2016)

Robert Beers said:


> BMW is no longer the "it" car to own. Audi, without offering ultra-low lease offers, is still catching them in sales. While BMW's premium models are still amazing, the "normal" offerings no longer offer an amazing and connected drive like, say, an E90 328i did. Our Bavarian friends need to come up with a new strategy if they want to keep from slipping any farther.


Agreed.

The M cars are still head-turners but I see so many base 3-series that are just meh.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

HPIA4v2 said:


> I hope 2017 will be the year of incentives :bigpimp:
> 
> $1500 option credit
> 0.9%
> ...


10 year winning streak is over. No need for incentives now.


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## HPIA4v2 (Mar 30, 2006)

Gary J said:


> 10 year winning streak is over. No need for incentives now.


I don't think BMW sees it as a title or bragging right.
More car which shares component means volume parts, meaning cheaper cost to make or bargain with vendors.

Try getting a quote on capacitor for example, the sales guy will ask the approximate quantity cause the price break between let say 1Mil to 10Mil could be 1/2!
That's what Audi's does, share component with VW to keep cost down.

It's the BMW exec needs to thread carefully, brand dilution and profit needs to balance it out.
If not remember the story about Benz and Maybach, their marketing understand from the get-go no one in the right mind will buy $1/2Mil Benz(due to brand dilution of a car like CLA) thus they resurrect the Maybach name.


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## Gary J (Dec 18, 2013)

HPIA4v2 said:


> I don't think BMW sees it as a title or bragging right.


They absolutely did. Last year, among others, it is no secret they added enough incentives at the end of the year to squeak by with the Best Selling European luxury brand title once again.


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## Yangorang (Jan 19, 2013)

Other than the continued use of inline-6 engines (though now it's inline 4s in base models just like everybody else) I honestly think their cars have lost much of their appeal to me as a consumer. The newer cars have similar driving feel to the competition, but the interior doesn't feel as good and the pricing is quite a bit more expensive.

When I look at new cars now the F30 just doesn't stand above the crowd and I'm looking at other cars like the C-class, A4, Q60, IS, and heck even the Mazda6 for my next car. They're really expensive cars, not particularly reliable, and just don't really have much of anything special to them anymore.

Current E90 owner.


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## chuck92116 (Nov 11, 2011)

Interesting.

Audi, Lexus, and MB were relatively flat, which begs the question:

What brand did approx. 6,000 BMW go to? :dunno:


BMW vs Competition November vs Last November
BMW - 26,189 vs 32.003
Audi - 17,118 vs 16,700
Lexus - 29,050 vs 29,340
Mercedes - 30,363 vs 30,043


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## intermediatic (Jan 13, 2012)

81% of Teslas are sold in the US, "24,500 vehicles in Q3, of which 15,800 were Model S and 8,700 were Model X. " http://ir.tesla.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=991720

So assuming November performance is flat with Q3, I'd conservatively guess something like 7,500 Teslas. I can't afford a Model S, but I can't afford a 7 series either and where I live (NYC suburbs) BMWs are a dime a dozen whereas Teslas still turn heads and provoke conversations.


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## Enthusiast 456 (Jun 23, 2014)

Why would this surprise anyone?

Consider:
1. BMW seems to be "all in" on the autonomous driving craze. Why? Why would anyone who wants a self driving car buy one made by BMW? If you are going to sit in a box and not drive it, you'd be insane to spend $50K or more when a $20K box will give you exactly the same level of driving enjoyment - zero.

2. Dropped the 50K mile free maintenance down to 36K. Ok, so maybe not a big thing dollar-wise but it's one of the benefits that had brought me to the brand to begin with. Now, I have to factor that into my upcoming decision whether to remain.


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## Mark78 (Mar 22, 2017)

I don't think BMW sees it as a title or bragging right.


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