# Which 335d issue should I take on first?



## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

Hi folks,

I'm new to this forum but I have been reading a lot of old posts on here to get a better understanding on my car (thanks for all the past info you all have contributed). 

I recently sold a 2004 330xi and bought a 2011 335d (90k miles). It's a beautiful car to drive but unfortunately I had a Service Engine Soon light come on within the first week of getting the car. 

When I had the car read at AutoZone the code came up: P02CC Cylinder 1 fuel injector offset learning at min limit. 

In Central Wisconsin it took me awhile to find a mechanic who had any experience with this kind of car--I ended up going to Green Bay. 

The mechanic has found three potential problems and I'm hoping you can help me figure out which should be addressed soon and if any of these could be caused by something else? 


1. Cylinder 1 fuel injector was confirmed to not be working correctly. He did additional tests and feels confident that it needs to be replaced. Likely $800 (ill get a firmer number tomorrow).
(4AD6 Zero-quantity adaptation, injector, cylinder 1)

2. I had him check for Carbon (CBU) and of course he found it. He said this is likely causing another code on cylinder 6: 4595 Smooth running controller, cylinder 6. $900 for CBU without any new parts so just cleaning with walnut shell blasting. 

3. 4D16 SCR system, efficiency . He is going to run a further test on this tomorrow. He is still investigating this issue but said the part could be quite expensive. 


Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated! 
Thanks,
Stephen


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

Here is a picture of one of the cylinders.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

StephenH said:


> ...
> 1. Cylinder 1 fuel injector was confirmed to not be working correctly. He did additional tests and feels confident that it needs to be replaced. Likely $800 (ill get a firmer number tomorrow).
> (4AD6 Zero-quantity adaptation, injector, cylinder 1)
> 
> ...


Do the CBU cleanup first. It's possibly causing the injector code.

The 4D16 can be quite expensive to fix - if you look around you'll see that I recently spent a bunch getting mine fixed. It has no effect on the motor, so leave it for a while. The fault tree for fixing the problem is complicated: it starts with checking the DEF mixer (injector) operation, then goes to the NOx sensors (which is what the DDE is looking at to throw the code), then goes very deep. My problem was actually the thermostat not keeping the engine hot enough, but it could also be one of numerous sensors and pumps in the DEF tank (part is $800 - individual parts can't be replaced!) or the SCR Catalyst ($1200).

I had an '01 330xi; kind of miss it. Great car in the snow, but snow tires on the 335d make it adequate.


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

Thanks for the quick reply. 

Do you think $900 is a fair price for CBU? 
That's including cleaning but not replacing the manifold. I have found a mechanic near Madison WI who said he does it for $600 but he is booked out a month. I'm sure $900 is cheaper then a dealer but its hard to find people who have done this a diesel. 

Thanks for the advice about the 4D16. Does this issue cause any longer term damage if not addressed? I will look for your posts to further understand this issue. 

I miss the 330xi a bit too--it was a fancy car, at the time, for me and a little hard to find a mechanic I trusted with it but in retrospect it seems easy now lol. 

Thanks again.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Hi ya neighbor. Who are the mechanics, in Green Bay and near Madison, with whom you are dealing? PM if you wish.


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

Your in a pretty part of the state. Who do you go for to get service. Have you had anyone do a Carbon clean out? 

The one in Green Bay is Dell's Service Center. The one in Madison is something like De Mechanic (European guy). I'm only in the start of working with Dells so let's stay in touch and I'll let you know how things go for me.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

StephenH said:


> ...
> Do you think $900 is a fair price for CBU?
> That's including cleaning but not replacing the manifold. I have found a mechanic near Madison WI who said he does it for $600 but he is booked out a month. I'm sure $900 is cheaper then a dealer but its hard to find people who have done this a diesel.
> 
> Thanks for the advice about the 4D16. Does this issue cause any longer term damage if not addressed? I will look for your posts to further understand this issue.


$900 is a fair price; I think most dealerships and independents are around $1200.
The manifold isn't replaced: it's removed and sent for chemical soak to remove the buildup. The process is different and quite a bit harder than for gas engine cars, as the manifold has the swirl valves in one runner. You should definitely have the manifold sent out.

4d16 is way back in the exhaust stream and has no effect on the motor. I suppose it's possible that the DDE might increase EGR utilization, but that would be it.

Quite a lot of posts on the e90post diesel subforum about all these issues, btw.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Yeah. Dell's will be my go-to indie.


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

Thanks for the input. I decided to go ahead with the CBU and hope that resolves the injector errors. 

The SCR diagnostics have led to this conclusion--I told them to spend a bit more time on it but that it's more of a future project. 

"There is not enough Urea fluid getting to the DPF filter. Possible clogged issues. More tests would need to be done to pin point the failure. Possible causes - plugged Urea injector, plugged tank and or lines, electronic control problem. " 

Doug, I have been happy with the diagnostic work they have done. Glad to hear they are on your go to list too.

Do you folks think there is anything else I should have them address while doing the CBU? 

I may look into getting a new fuel filter installed, since I don't know how old the current one is. About how much does a fuel filter install typical cost?


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

As I recall, updating the firmware of the DDE occurred several times for model year 2011. If your car has an early for 2011 build date, this is certainly true. Many of the posts that had fuel injectors replaced showed that the "problem" didn't go away (some had all injectors replaced twice!) until the DDE was updated.

PL


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

DEF is injected at the outlet of the DPF. It has nothing to do with the filter within DPF. Urea reacts with exhaust gas high temp to convert over to ammonia and the exhaust /ammonia combo reacts in the SCR downstream of the DPF. This is where NOX conversion to water and nitrogen happens. Agree with Pierre on the DDE code update. That CBU picture looks pretty bad. Hopefully, the cleaning will sort of most of your issues. Some here have cleaned out urea tank with distilled water and then drained/refilled with new urea. I'm unsure how the feed line from tank to metering valve (that's the injector) is purged of old urea when this is done. Best if person with actual experience chimes in on this. Good luck sorting this out and also welcome to our sub forum.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Evacuating
After turning off the engine, the reversing valve switches to reverse the delivery direction of the pump, thus evacuating the metering line and metering module.
Evacuation also takes place if the system has to be shut down due to a fault or if the minimum temperature in the active reservoir can no longer be maintained.
This is necessary to ensure no urea-water solution remains in the metering line or metering module as it can freeze.
The metering valve is opened during evacuation.

That the metering valve is open is to provide a vent path from the nozzle, through the delivery pipe, through the reversing valve, pump and to the tank.


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## 335dwanted (Aug 1, 2014)

Doug Huffman said:


> Evacuating
> After turning off the engine, the reversing valve switches to reverse the delivery direction of the pump, thus evacuating the metering line and metering module.
> Evacuation also takes place if the system has to be shut down due to a fault or if the minimum temperature in the active reservoir can no longer be maintained.
> This is necessary to ensure no urea-water solution remains in the metering line or metering module as it can freeze.
> The metering valve is opened during evacuation.


So this explains that whirring noise I hear after every shutdown. I assumed that it was related to the SCR system but guessed that it might have been pumping from passive to active tank. Makes perfect sense that the line needs to be evacuated every time if freezing is a potential problem. I guess freezing is not a problem for the tanks themselves.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

335dwanted said:


> ... I guess freezing is not a problem for the tanks themselves.


The active tank is heated.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

335dwanted said:


> So this explains that whirring noise I hear after every shutdown. I assumed that it was related to the SCR system but guessed that it might have been pumping from passive to active tank. Makes perfect sense that the line needs to be evacuated every time if freezing is a potential problem. I guess freezing is not a problem for the tanks themselves.


That is correct. The active tank heats a volume sufficient to provide DEF until the passive tank is thawed by the adjacent exhaust system.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

And if the heater goes you have to replace the entire tank and pump assembly. Happened to me under warranty. Who needs heat in So. Fla.?:rofl:


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

I vacation in Floriduh to miss the mud-season here. We stay on the Withlacoochee State Trail, Floral City, Inverness, Arlington, to get in early bicycle riding.

Next year I'm getting a fishing license and bringing my rods too.


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

To update folks:

The mechanic still hasn't gotten to the bottom of the problem--though I'm he has been very gracious about the situation. It seems i've got a bit of a puzzler here. 

So far:
Did the CBU clean up. 
replaced Injector 1
Both resolved and didn't resolve the problems with the exhaust. 

Currently, the original injector code still keeps coming back but I don't think that's the issue. The mechanic has brought in some tech support to oversee some of these tests. 
The issue with the exhaust is still coming up--which is where I think the issue is.

Based on the conversations I had yesterday he said a sensor they had recently changed in the exhaust had melted--something is wrong there... And he ran a pressure test (I believe it was) and the numbers were about 10 times off. He thinks this pressure issue in the exhaust is also causing the injector code. So today they are going to take apart the exhaust and try to see where the issue is. 
He said the software on the exhaust was updated but he thinks maybe too late and as a result the car has some build up or blockage that has worsened over time. 

I will continue to update this so future readers have some (hopefully) completed info. 

Please feel free to give me any input you see?

Thanks,
Stephen


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Not going to reread the thread but if you think the DPF has a high level of restriction, be cautious. There are two flexible hoses that hook the metal tubes on the DPF. They lead to a differential pressure sensor. If too much restriction happens across DPF, the high pressure side hose can get blown off. Hot gases can then come out and melt whatever is in their path. Please make sure that the 2 black hoses are good and plugged onto the metal hoses coming off DPF. You will need the engine cover off, the airbox out and its still difficult to reach but you can get to it, trust me.

Here is a helpful picture with arrows pointing to what I'm talking about. If hoses are on, great but wanted you to be aware of this. Another guy burnt up a $300 harness and had to wait several weeks for another to come from Germany.


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

Thanks BB Cuda, 
The picture was helpful too.. I mentioned the caution to my mechanic. I know floydarogers had given some advise earlier about the exhaust system so I'm going to track down some more posts about his issue and see what i can learn. 
Certainly learning more then I thought I would (any wanted too lol). 

Thanks again for the input.


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## Hoooper (Jun 17, 2013)

Regarding the injector codes coming back, now that CBU is cleaned up you need to have all the adaptations for the injectors cleared. In order to do that you either need to take the car to BMW, or your indy needs to have THE LATEST copy of ISTA-P (or ediabas, or equivalent) files for the e90 and know how to use it. You cannot clear all of the adaptations using a standard scanner.


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

I think this issue is coming from the DPF (diesel particulate filter)... 
The mechanic feels pretty confident that's the source of the problem. It could be causing the injector code because of the back pressure. He has taken apart the exhaust and found the back pressure was 10x more then it should be. He also found that this caused one of the sensors to melt. I need to get some more details from him so i can explain this better. 
If this is the source I'm trying to figure out the best solution... I read a couple back posts on the issue and Im going to do more reading this weekend. Right now these are my questions, let me know if you have any thoughts:

1. Could anything else be causing this back pressure issue? 
2. Can the DPF be cleaned? 
3. How hard would it be to find a used DPF?


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

StephenH said:


> I think this issue is coming from the DPF (diesel particulate filter)...
> The mechanic feels pretty confident that's the source of the problem. It could be causing the injector code because of the back pressure. He has taken apart the exhaust and found the back pressure was 10x more then it should be. He also found that this caused one of the sensors to melt. I need to get some more details from him so i can explain this better.
> If this is the source I'm trying to figure out the best solution... I read a couple back posts on the issue and Im going to do more reading this weekend. Right now these are my questions, let me know if you have any thoughts:
> 
> ...


 Regarding the injector - reprogramming is needed vi ISTA. There is a service bulltin about this. Most likely you did not need a new injector.


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## ingenieur (Dec 26, 2006)

You are choosing to ignore some good advise here. DPF has nothing to do with injector zero-mass adaptation faults.
When these set as a result of CBU then the crankshaft incremental wheel adaptation must be reset (may require updated DDE software to support this function) and the injector zero-mass adaptations themselves cleared.
DPF has no influence and if a sensor was melted or back pressure too high - esp. 10x there would be other faults present.
I don't think the indy has a clue....IMO. Tough enough for the dealers at times.


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## StephenH (Jun 2, 2016)

Thanks for the great replies. From the early advice I got from everyone here I did expressly ask the mechanic to check the software. With the extra details you're giving me ill ask him again to be sure it was done right. 
He has brought in additional technical assistance and they have overseen some of these tests and I would hope made sure the software was up to date etc. 

That being said, do you think the injector is causing my DPF issue? Or the DPF causing the injector issue? Or are these two most likely unrelated issues? 

I'm going to ask what the specific codes are related to the DPF issue tomorrow. I'm also hoping to clarify that the thermostat isn't part of the issue (that seems to be the main issue that people are talking about related to the DPF)? 
Is there anything else I should be asking about related to the DPF issue that seems to be the main focus right now?


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

StephenH said:


> Thanks for the great replies. From the early advice I got from everyone here I did expressly ask the mechanic to check the software. With the extra details you're giving me ill ask him again to be sure it was done right.
> He has brought in additional technical assistance and they have overseen some of these tests and I would hope made sure the software was up to date etc.
> 
> That being said, do you think the injector is causing my DPF issue? Or the DPF causing the injector issue? Or are these two most likely unrelated issues?
> ...


 If its not clear yet, by the various posters most likely the issues are unrelated.

Scr issues is probably crystallised fluid on the metering valve (which was subject to a design recall-check if that was done) a cleaning will probably clear the code for now.

As myself and others have noted CBU is likely causing injector problems which will clear only after a full dde reprogramming and reset


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## BB_cuda (Nov 8, 2011)

Giving answer to where can I get a used one but don't jump on this unless you're sure you need it. A guy named sour335d on the other diesel forum was talking with me probably 9 months ago. I was pondering buying his and gutting the filter out and using it for the DOC benefit. I bailed out and didn't do it. I could ask if his is still for sale. I can't give you name of other forum as it will get blanked out


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## mikeymack (Dec 20, 2013)

I would sell it. I have a 2011 335d and just came out of warranty a year ago. First year expense at only 35,000 miles. Intake manifold...so much carbon the swirl flap motor was out...one piece so no cleaning. My car magically built up carbon in 8 months when dealer would repeatedly say no carbon buildup with multiple swirl flap codes...now temp sensor in def tank. $2200 in april....$2400 for the tank. In three months $4600. Going to sell this one. I have never spent this much money on a car in my life.


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## BlakeW (Nov 10, 2021)

StephenH said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I'm new to this forum but I have been reading a lot of old posts on here to get a better understanding on my car (thanks for all the past info you all have contributed).
> 
> ...


You figure out what’s wrong with the injector 1 code fault


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

BlakeW said:


> You figure out what’s wrong with the injector 1 code fault


OPie has not been seen for four years. As gullible as he is and with his BMW problems, he probably sold it.

Start your own thread. Without BMW hexadecimal Diagnostic Trouble Codes we can’t help.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

BlakeW said:


> You figure out what’s wrong with the injector 1 code fault


I had a similar fault on injector 4 on my 328d, however, it was max limit code. Was going to do the work myself, nut ended up taking it to the BMW dealership when I found out I still had warranty. I told them the conditions of then it triggers the service engine light which was only when I let off the throttle pedal to decelerate. It would come on just about every time it was driven after I cleared it. They "diagnosed" the issue to find out it was an injector. Two weeks after replacing the injector, the service engine light came on again with the same code.

Since the nearest BMW dealer is 50 miles a way and is a pain in the arse to get my car up there so I decided to diagnose it myself. In roughly thirty minutes I found out that it was the wiring harness and connector for that injector that was causing the fault. Fixed the issue myself and the light has not come on in over 10k miles. I should have known it was an electrical issue since every other problem I have had with this car was due to faulty wiring or just plain bad electrical design.

Although I am surprised that I was able to find the issue within thirty minutes and a BMW expert technician wasn't. I know my way around diesels and motors in general, but someone who works on BMW's all day every day should have at least checked for chafed wiring and a bent/loose connector pin.


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## Attacking Mid (Dec 11, 2009)

alacey said:


> Although I am surprised that I was able to find the issue within thirty minutes and a BMW expert technician wasn't. I know my way around diesels and motors in general, but someone who works on BMW's all day every day should have at least checked for chafed wiring and a bent/loose connector pin.


Good that you figured it out, but I wouldn't necessarily fault the BMW tech on something like that - VERY easy to miss. That's a major difference between DIY and professionals (I've been both in my life). The pro is on the clock and does not have the luxury of "diddling" around inspecting everything, etc. Probably 99/100 times, changing that injector solves the problem, so that's what he does. Only if the problem re-appears will he start looking further for an issue. It's certainly not that the pro is less knowledgeable about BMW's than the DIY guy (like me); he just doesn't have the same luxury of TIME to be as thorough as I can, which is why I essentially never take my vehicle to anyone for anything (except recalls). 

AM.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Attacking Mid said:


> Good that you figured it out, but I wouldn't necessarily fault the BMW tech on something like that - VERY easy to miss. That's a major difference between DIY and professionals (I've been both in my life). The pro is on the clock and does not have the luxury of "diddling" around inspecting everything, etc. Probably 99/100 times, changing that injector solves the problem, so that's what he does. Only if the problem re-appears will he start looking further for an issue. It's certainly not that the pro is less knowledgeable about BMW's than the DIY guy (like me); he just doesn't have the same luxury of TIME to be as thorough as I can, which is why I essentially never take my vehicle to anyone for anything (except recalls).
> 
> AM.



True. The way our service department works in our 130 heavy duty diesel dealerships across the US is that a technician is paid on flag rate(aka book rate). If the book states that a job takes 4 hours then that is what the customer pays regardless if it takes an experienced tech 2 hours or a new tech 6 hours. The last time I spoke with a technician friend of mine who used to work for this BMW dealership and now works as a Tesla technician, they operate the same way.

Warranty work generally pays 10-30% less hours than the book rate, and warranty hardly ever pays for the time spent diagnosing the problem. They also don't usually pay for simple fixes like a wiring issue so the technician is screwed on this time unless the customer agrees to pay which most won't while the vehicle is under warranty. So for the tech, the best thing to do to get paid under warranty is to do as little diagnosis time as possible and just replace parts. 

We discourage this type of behavior from our techs by paying them diag time out of our own pocket and making them fix it while not being paid for the job if it comes back for the same issue. Ironically, most see the dealer as the all-knowing end-all-be-all, but they might think differently if they really knew what went on behind closed doors. Many do not comply with manufacturers suggestions and try to milk the OE(through warranty) or the customer for as much money as possible especially in the light duty car market where margins are much greater.


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