# Customer advisors leaving



## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

MJBrown62 said:


> ***8230;
> 
> Might not have been the case in that store in 2000, but want people following the "life of the salesperson" to know that there might be a reason that the salesperson just looks up at you and smiles.
> 
> Most "up system" stores (vs "open floor" systems) implement the 10 feet 5 feet rule. If they are 10' or more away, make eye contact and say hi. If they are 5' or closer, you say hello and asked if they have been assisted.


Everything here is Bubbaville, Floriduh is behind the times. I worked for the federal government. Our controllers in D.C. would always ask us what the time difference was between there and here. The answer was that we're one hour and 20 years behind them. Here, all peasant brand dealerships, the plan is to put too many sharks in the shark tank and see which ones survive.

I've stopped car shopping in Bubbaville, after bad experiences at the GM, VW-Honda, and Hyundai dealerships. I deal with the group in Pensacola who sells BMW's and I've been happy with for 16 years. My next GM beater will come from one of their three Chevy lots.

I dated a car salesmanette for a while and got some insight to how thing worked. From that, I don't bother salesmen until I'm ready to buy, and then, I'm not greedy. I'm not stupid either, though. If I get good service, I'm willing to pay more than the "fair price" for the car. I also try to give the referrals and go back to them myself. The problem is that they've all either died, retired, or got promoted into sales management before I bought our next car.

For my next GM beater, I asked the BMW service manager to refer me to a salesman at the Chevy lot. That will further endear me with the BMW service manager.

The BMW dealership I go to now has sales assistants, who sort of entertain the prospects until they're ready to be handed up to the assistant's assigned salesman.


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## Matthew_H (Oct 9, 2017)

They generally have high turnovers, doesn’t matter what dealership it is. The Toyota dealer I work at, we have sales reps and service reps come and go. And Toyota cars sell like hot cakes. Where I live X5s are the best sellers. Followed by the X3 and 3 series. Everything else is eh. 


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

The customary statistic for auto sales is the 92% of new salespeople are gone before their first anniversary.
Sounds inflated but not too far from reality.

And now the old-timers are gone, replaced by kiosks/ipads/carvana, truecar, yada/very young 20-somethings that gather experience and a referral and then bail.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

deenx said:


> Not only are customers advisors leaving... *so are customers*... the leases right now are about as bad I've seen in a long time.


Ding Ding Ding we have a winner...


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

I have a relative who started out working in dealership service departments as a commissioned line mechanic in the early seventies. He told me back in those days management viewed the service department as a necessary evil of being in the automobile business. He said the compensation plans back then were pretty good for a mechanic ( they didn't call them techs in those days). It was common in the industry to pay a mechanic 50% commission, meaning the service department split the customer's labor charge 50-50 with the mechanic, a tradition which began decades earlier. It was also common back then to find mechanics who had worked for a particular dealer all their lives and mechanics also cultivated their own individual customer bases. It was common for customers to ask the service writer for their favorite mechanic and each mechanic was usually a highly skilled expert you would be proud to have work on your own car. 

That all started changing by about 1980 he said, as dealerships began looking for new ways to structure the dealership because of heavy competition. Service departments started doing away with the old 50-50 pay plans in favor of a new way to compensate called the flat rate hour. Now instead of keeping track of your share of the dollars dealers started paying mechanics by the flat rate hour. The customer would be billed for the amount of allotted book hours per each labor operation times the shop hourly rate but the mechanic would be paid for the number of flat rate hours he had turned in by the end of the week. 

You can guess where this one headed. The service departments steadily increased their hourly rate to the customer and the per hour rate to the mechanic did not keep pace. This served to frustrate and discourage the better more experienced mechanics and many of them started leaving the industry. Over the years this has only gotten worse as dealers continually streamline and cut costs. Nowadays it is common for mechanics to change jobs quite often among the several dealerships in each city in search of better pay or working conditions. 

Another problem arises from the fact that the factory uses a different time study guide for warranty operations and it is well known in the industry that even the best mechanics cannot perform a given operation within the factory time allowance. This leads to the better technicians shunning warranty work for the more lucrative customer pay work so the lower seniority techs usually end up doing most of it. It should also be obvious that all this cost cutting promotes short-cutting and overall lower quality work in general.


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## gkr778 (Feb 8, 2013)

Jon Shafer said:


> The customary statistic for auto sales is the 92% of new salespeople are gone before their first anniversary.
> Sounds inflated but not too far from reality.
> 
> And now the old-timers are gone, replaced by kiosks/ipads/carvana, truecar, yada/very young 20-somethings that gather experience and a referral and then bail.


Wow, 92%! That's even higher than I remember seeing in the NADA Dealership Workforce study.

btw, always great to see your posts Jon! Thank you for everything you do for Bimmerfest. :thumbup:


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

Obviously, I'm not in the industry but this lines up with some of my more recent experience. 

When I went looking for my present car in 2017, I found that my salesman (who had been at our north Atlanta dealership for more than a decade) was gone, replaced by a "kid in his early 20s" (gawd that makes me sound old). He was annoying, aggressive, and didn't really know his stuff. Came back to the dealership as I got more focused in my search and other salesmen wouldn't talk to me even though I expressed a dissatisfaction with my "assigned" salesman...

Went to the Audi dealer across the street to find five former employees of my BMW dealership working that I knew (4 salesman and a finance manager). They made it very clear that the Audi dealership was better at taken care of "experienced sales personnel" and that their experience at my former dealership had gotten worse. Got a call a few months later after the "kid" that took over my relationship at my old dealership left and they passed me off to a new "kid". 

At the time, I assumed that it was changes pushed by the large corporation that owns my old dealership but wondering if the problem could be more generic.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

AggieKnight said:


> Obviously, I'm not in the industry but this lines up with some of my more recent experience.
> 
> When I went looking for my present car in 2017, I found that my salesman (who had been at our north Atlanta dealership for more than a decade) was gone, replaced by a "kid in his early 20s" (gawd that makes me sound old). He was annoying, aggressive, and didn't really know his stuff. Came back to the dealership as I got more focused in my search and other salesmen wouldn't talk to me even though I expressed a dissatisfaction with my "assigned" salesman...
> 
> ...


Is that "large corporation" Autonation. by chance?


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## 750LIXM (Nov 25, 2018)

I can tell it isn't the 7 series that is selling (obviously), i've seen one on the road since purchasing Thanksgiving week. 
I walked into the dealer a couple weeks back to pick something up and not a single person noticed or even said hi to me walking around looking at other models before heading to the back. Kind of ironic as I had to stop looking at a certain point, to take a call in the lounge for what will be a $100,000,000 dollar deal I was negotiating. If they still judge based upon appearance, that'd be a bit silly in this day and age.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

MJBrown62 said:


> Is that "large corporation" Autonation. by chance?


Or Penske


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

MJBrown62 said:


> Is that "large corporation" Autonation. by chance?


Or Hendrick


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## x986 (Oct 27, 2006)

Sonic is not to be confused with supersonic. Ugh. However, I have had two experiences with Penske, one 'fairly good', and one OK.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

gkr778 said:


> Wow, 92%! That's even higher than I remember seeing in the NADA Dealership Workforce study.
> 
> btw, always great to see your posts Jon! Thank you for everything you do for Bimmerfest. :thumbup:


Thanks!


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## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

x986 said:


> Sonic is not to be confused with supersonic. Ugh. However, I have had two experiences with Penske, one 'fairly good', and one OK.


I bought my 2 Audis from the local dealer here who is a Penske dealer. Both times I got what I felt was a good deal, although I was armed with data to not let myself get hosed. Taken both to service as well, without issue. I don't have any overflowing praise for them, but no complaints either.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> Is that "large corporation" Autonation. by chance?


I specifically asked about AutoNation as locally they have a pay plan that can't support most CAs with experience. So they do get quite a few young and hungry types that to them the pay is good.


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## Rusty34 (Feb 3, 2017)

MJBrown62 said:


> I specifically asked about AutoNation as locally they have a pay plan that can't support most CAs with experience. So they do get quite a few young and hungry types that to them the pay is good.


Your words were much more eloquently chosen than mine. This is the problem most dealers have in their service departments too.

But they have little choice... when you have competition and roll 90 day paper at the same time you either raise your prices or cut costs (Cost Accounting 101).


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

Eagle11 said:


> Or Penske


Wasn't going to call them out, but you got it. 

Edit - this experience was when we lived in the ATL area. Haven't gone car dealership shopping out here in Cali yet.


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## downersdan (Nov 11, 2018)

Adding two cents of experience: having done preliminary research, made first stops at two west suburban chicago BMW dealerships to look at X3 M40s, 1st in nice work clothes, 2nd in pretty casual (although expensive winter jacket - think Canadian) clothes. 

1st dealership, the sales guy, 14 year-at-that-dealership let me do brief (my request) test drive with only looking at my drivers license - no photocopy. At the 2nd, no one acknowledged me - no greeting, eye contact, ‘can I help you’ etc. BTW, I’m 50+ male driving a fine Audi coupe.

Guess where I’ll go back to, and likely buy from?


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

downersdan said:


> Adding two cents of experience: having done preliminary research, made first stops at two west suburban chicago BMW dealerships to look at X3 M40s, 1st in nice work clothes, 2nd in pretty casual (although expensive winter jacket - think Canadian) clothes.
> 
> 1st dealership, the sales guy, 14 year-at-that-dealership let me do brief (my request) test drive with only looking at my drivers license - no photocopy. At the 2nd, no one acknowledged me - no greeting, eye contact, 'can I help you' etc. BTW, I'm 50+ male driving a fine Audi coupe.
> 
> Guess where I'll go back to, and likely buy from?


That's why negotiating via e-mail from the comfort of your couch is the best route to go these days. For fun you should e-mail the 2nd dealership in your boxers for price, might be surprised, as I wouldn't let a test drive deter you.

What percentage of customers actuallly take a test drive these days? My last test drive was over 10 years ago.


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Ibiza said:


> That's why negotiating via e-mail from the comfort of your couch is the best route to go these days. For fun you should e-mail the 2nd dealership in your boxers for price, might be surprised, as I wouldn't let a test drive deter you.
> 
> What percentage of customers actuallly take a test drive these days? My last test drive was over 10 years ago.


I didn't test drive my current 330i when I leased it and everything was handled via text or email and the SA came to my work, with the car, signed the paperwork in the garage at work and they drive off in my trade in.. I was spoiled by this person and he no longer works in the business.


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## downersdan (Nov 11, 2018)

Wow, are you suggesting buying a vehicle without test driving it at all? Seems like that's a pretty big leap of faith on so many levels.... :dunno:


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## Ibiza (Jun 15, 2007)

downersdan said:


> Wow, are you suggesting buying a vehicle without test driving it at all? Seems like that's a pretty big leap of faith on so many levels.... :dunno:


Yes.

My former 2015 X5 50 M-sport was ordered with Dynamic Handling Package and adaptive M suspension (among the other options such as Bang & Olufsen stereo), as this V8 is a rare build, how many Centers would have this available for a test drive considering that a majority of X5's are the I-6?

2018 M4 convertible ordered with the competition package, most Centers don't have this vehicle on the lot to test drive, as BMW NA has the M3 and M4 coupè at the track events. Same for my 2018 X5M, hard to find test drive for, but based on driving the 2015 V8 X5 50i, I knew it would be a treat, and it sure has been.

I'm considering the upcoming M8, and to get a feeling for the MxDrive, I paid to participate in a 2 day M5 training at the Nordschleife last fall and planning on the M850i 2 day training latter this year. I feel that the best M test drive is flying over to Germany and tracking on the Nordschleife with the BMW Driving Experience trainers, as the development engineers are the instructions and have lots of insight into the product-- light years ahead of any CA in the USA. Only the PC East and West staff are on par. Matter of fact, flying out to Palm Springs this weekend for a private M850 test drive at the Thermal Club with BMW NA.

Based on my previous performance driving track events with BMW in Germany, I have full confidence in the M portfolio without a test drive.


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## downersdan (Nov 11, 2018)

Based on your very deep experience and connectivity into all things BMW, I completely understand your PoV - thnx for sharing it, and why it applies in your case. I'd look for an emoji that shows "I'm in awe" of these attributes, but having said it, wont bother. Dude, you are my new hero!


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Ibiza said:


> That's why negotiating via e-mail from the comfort of your couch is the best route to go these days. For fun you should e-mail the 2nd dealership in your boxers for price, might be surprised, as I wouldn't let a test drive deter you.
> 
> What percentage of customers actuallly take a test drive these days? My last test drive was over 10 years ago.


Ibiza is correct. Go to a dealer to test drive and negotiate via email or phone. This is how smart people do it in the modern era. Come to think of it, 2006 was the last time I negotiated a deal inside of a car store......

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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Eagle11 said:


> I didn't test drive my current 330i when I leased it and everything was handled via text or email and the SA came to my work, with the car, signed the paperwork in the garage at work and they drive off in my trade in.. I was spoiled by this person and he no longer works in the business.


Yeah. That is spoiled. Most will make you drive into the dealer to pick the car up, hand over the trade and sign papers. I personally would prefer to go to the dealer than have them come to me.

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## downersdan (Nov 11, 2018)

Agree on not sitting face-to-face in a dealership for price discussions, as that needlessly adds stress & risks loss of leverage. I lead a procurement practice for a very large global company and am responsible for multi-billions of dollars of spend. If I'd have my druthers, I'd build a reverse auction with multiple suppliers across the US for a specific vehicle and specs, and be done in 10-15 minutes, but think I can accomplish similar via multiple emails. Goal isn't necessarily always 'least cost' as I've learned to leave a dime or nickel on the table for goodwill. 

My second comment (not OP) was about the need for test drives and acknowledge my need for them may differ from some. I do like the 'come to me' approach to execute paperwork and swap vehicles, but that might be a bridge too far. 

BTW, I just started posting here as my hunt is getting serious, and greatly appreciate the collective wisdom on this forum. Thanks to all!


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## Eagle11 (Oct 6, 2013)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Yeah. That is spoiled. Most will make you drive into the dealer to pick the car up, hand over the trade and sign papers. I personally would prefer to go to the dealer than have them come to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


The dealer and SA wanted the sale, just shows what they will do for a sale if it was important to them. Also I didn't have to sit through the Fiance Manager trying to selling me the tire and wheel protection package.. We bought a Honda CRV and I wanted to kill the Fiance Manger and the a55hole wouldn't take NO for an answer in trying to sell us the Platinum Protection Package for $8500.... I didn't have to waste my time sitting at a dealtership waiting for paperwork and crap.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

MJBrown62 said:


> I specifically asked about AutoNation as locally they have a pay plan that can't support most CAs with experience. So they do get quite a few young and hungry types that to them the pay is good.


Interesting. I remember trying to make a deal with an Autonation dealer on an X3. The responses I got were beyond brain dead.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Ibiza said:


> That***8217;s why negotiating via e-mail from the comfort of your couch is the best route to go these days. For fun you should e-mail the 2nd dealership in your boxers for price, might be surprised, as I wouldn***8217;t let a test drive deter you.
> 
> What percentage of customers actuallly take a test drive these days? My last test drive was over 10 years ago.


Yep. My last 3 cars were purchased that way. I've actually found BMW dealers slightly more amenable to doing a deal over email (other dealers tend to give more "why don't you come on in " BS). They usually fedex the paperwork to me so I can look and sign it from the comfort of my couch. Only need to go to dealership to actually take delivery. Most test drives are worthless anyway, so I try to get experience with the car I'll be buying through other means (rentals, loaners, etc). Also, once you go to a dealer for a test drive, you'll likely be stuck dealing with one of the regular sales people instead of the internet or general sales manager.


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## Rockland (Nov 25, 2016)

Autoputzer said:


> There was a really good father-and-son VW-Honda in the next town over from me. Sales people, and service and parts people, and administrative people who worked there stayed there. We bought our last Honda from their top salesman. But, the family sold the business to a big multi-state dealership chain, and they were nasty. Their first trick was that all the salesmen had to wear knit shirts (think TV Star Trek uniforms). Most 55 year old men, e.g. their top salesman, don't look good in knit shirts.
> 
> Their next trick was to hire more salesmen than could be supported by the volume of the dealership. They were, and 12 years later, are still standing shoulder-to-shoulder in the showroom looking out the window waiting to chase down a potential customer when they drive onto the lot. Once, I was picking up Frau Putzer after she dropped of her Honda for service. I was driving my BMW. I pulled into the entrance nearer the showroom because it has less of an incline than the entrance near the service department. As I was making my way across the parking lot to the service department, a crippled salesman was hobbling along as fast as he could behind my car, trying to catch me if/when I parked before another salesman did. I actually almost felt sorry for the guy.
> 
> ...


Stockbrokers now refer to themselves as "financial advisors" and are doing better than ever with the marketing rebranding.

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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Caveat emptor. There is a subset of owners on the G30 forum who bought or leased without a test drive, only to learn post-delivery that they hate the standard "sport" seats. The experience can be uncomfortable, but it can also be essential.

I have the best of both worlds. Have dealt with the same CA (now a sales manager) for 15 years and a dozen cars. When I want to test drive something, I just give him a call and he has a car waiting and fueled when I arrive. I can take it for as long as I want (my longest drive was 60 minutes, so I don't abuse the privilege) and he does not join me. I return the car, tell him my thoughts (which he pretends to value) and the rest of the dance is done by email. He even has the F&I guy trained, so I get in and out without the sales pitch for wheel and tire coverage, lease end protection, LoJack and Rusty Jones. In return I always give him perfect CSI scores.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

AggieKnight said:


> Obviously, I'm not in the industry but this lines up with some of my more recent experience.
> 
> When I went looking for my present car in 2017, I found that my salesman (who had been at our north Atlanta dealership for more than a decade) was gone, replaced by a "kid in his early 20s" (gawd that makes me sound old). He was annoying, aggressive, and didn't really know his stuff. Came back to the dealership as I got more focused in my search and other salesmen wouldn't talk to me even though I expressed a dissatisfaction with my "assigned" salesman...
> 
> ...


In the past 6 weeks I had 3 occurrences with a Millennial salesperson. 
I went to the Volvo dealer where the 2019 s60 just arrived at dealerships. The salesperson was nice but wanted me to order the car right away and said this lie "we are only going to get 20 s60's for the whole year." Today the 2019 s60's are being discounted. 
The 2 salesmen that I dealt with at Mercedes and jaguar-land Rover were these young dbag types that were only looking for people that could buy their high end models. Since I was inquiring about the XE & c Class and I did not have an once of gold on my watch, they basically gave me no discount on both cars.
I notice with most "young" salespeople at luxury car dealerships that they lookout for the people that are only interested in the high end models.

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## [email protected] BMW (Aug 2, 2010)

Some of us "old timers" are still here................... when you need a BMW festers' hit me up.


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## Judy G (Jan 27, 2011)

[email protected] BMW said:


> Some of us "old timers" are still here................... when you need a BMW festers' hit me up.


3 of our last 4 BMW's have been leased from Greg. He makes it an easy transaction. Everything is done via text and email. We drive in, sign the papers and off we go. Our one son is on car# 3 as well. When these leases are over take one guess as to who we will be calling?

Always honest and professional.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

I've had good experiences at bad dealerships, dealing with unpleasant salespeople. 

I take a lot of responsibility for how a car transaction goes down. I admit I even occasionally have enjoyed pulling a good car deal from what kept trying to be a bad situation.

We love to share our stories of the silly stunts car sales people try. These threads are often filled with examples of how customers have felt mistreated and worked over.

Let us take just a moment to understand that most car salespeople just want us to buy a car from them... preferably "today." And they want us to be happy, while, at the same time, they want to do their jobs, which includes holding gross for the dealership that employs them. The pros will either try to figure out how you want to do the dance, or they will find a way to ask you what you need to get to a deal.

The greatest challenge is not, IMHO, the sleazy tactics we've all experienced. The challenge is customers who aren't straight about what it will take to do the deal. Not talkin' about the self-selected group of 'Festers who know how to do a car deal and are justifiably horrified, or amused, by the unpleasantness they encounter at dealerships. I'm talkin' about the unprepared, unqualified, dishonest, evasive customers that car sales people are expected to treat with the same professionalism as we all expect. There are many such people, visiting high line and mainstream car dealerships every day. And car sales professionals can't tell which ones they are by the watches they are or aren't wearing.

MJB is right when he talks about the race to the bottom. Dealership owners are squeezed and so they squeeze their employees and, despite all the attention customer satisfaction gets -- it's still about grinding out the deals, which many of us are fortunate to get, only because others are willing to pay more, or unaware of how to get a better deal. We can pay less because others are paying more.

The only thing I can control is my behavior and, since I, as the customer, bring the money that makes the car deal happen, I can let the dealer get as crazy as they wish. It takes all my attention just keeping my own craziness under control. I wish more people would take responsibility for the chaos they self-create. It would make for a better world, I think.


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