# Why change lanes if you are not going to pass?



## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> You're getting your left and right mixed up. But anyways... the answer is that there're too many lazy people in this country that relied on cruise control, even when passing, which is what causes the 5 minute passes.
> But ultimately, if they've set their cruise at the speed limit, you have no right to complain. If you want to go above that speed, it's up to you to go arround people, safely, discretly, and quietly. That's highway courtesy.
> But I'm with you if they've set their cruise below speed limit. I flash and honk the hell out of them.


I made a mistake, thanks for the correction.. I meant Left. You have a nice car and you bought the 330 rather then the 323 or 325.. So power means something to you :angel: You are also on the Bimmerfest Board, so you care about other peoples opinion and care to express your opinion. You also must like cars, so otherwise you would not be here. I think you are a good man and would move to let others go if they flashed or honked because they needed to go. I doubt you would hold them up on purpose seeing them in your rear view mirror lined up behind you. You must have a heart


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

stylinexpat said:


> I made a mistake, thanks for the correction.. I meant Left. You have a nice car and you bought the 330 rather then the 323 or 325.. So power means something to you :angel: You are also on the Bimmerfest Board, so you care about other peoples opinion and care to express your opinion. You also must like cars, so otherwise you would not be here. I think you are a good man and would move to let others go if they flashed or honked because they needed to go. I doubt you would hold them up on purpose seeing them in your rear view mirror lined up behind you. You must have a heart


I'm just messing with you, man. I like to see how strongly you hold on to your positions... :thumbup:
If you knew me, you'd know in real life I'm not even close to the persona I appear to be online. 
Did you say you live in Taiwan? Are you there for business or are you there permanently? I spent 2 months in Taiwan a few years ago. Did you notice that, with all the crazyness that you described, there's no (or very little) road rage? Do you have a theory for that?


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

stylinexpat said:


> Answer is simple, you speed up! If you can't speed up then you should not be in that lane in the first place. If you don't feel comfortable speeding up or don't feel that you can handle a quicker speed then you are endangering traffic in the carpool land or fast lane.


I totally agreed with what you guys are saying, and this is what I'm doing too. What I'm trying to ask is what if you are cruising at 80mph (yes, 15 above speed limit) in a carpool lane and suddenly Stuka (sorry, just for example) is coming behind you at 95, being forced to slow down and sticking at your bumper. Now should you speed up until he is not at your bumper? Even exceeding 100? So are you saying if someone has a habit of driving at 95mph, then everybody should get out of his way and he should be the only one using the carpool lane? What is the minimum speed one is qualifed to use the carpool lane? What would you say if you get pull over for doing 95mph? I'm sorry officer, the guy is at my back, so I speed up? A carpool lane is a lane for carpooling, not speeding. I'll be honest, I don't drive at speed limit in the carpool lane. I normally do 10-15 above the limit. But I often see people doing way over and tailgating someone doing 75-80.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

JetBlack330i said:


> I'm just messing with you, man. I like to see how strongly you hold on to your positions... :thumbup:
> If you knew me, you'd know in real life I'm not even close to the persona I appear to be online.
> Did you say you live in Taiwan? Are you there for business or are you there permanently? I spent 2 months in Taiwan a few years ago. Did you notice that, with all the crazyness that you described, there's no (or very little) road rage? Do you have a theory for that?


.

I have been out here for some time and it has been for business. My personal theory for that would be vision.. They don't see very far  Most wear glasses here, they try and concentrate on what's in front of them, they are not very good at doing two things at once. looking back and forth isn't very easy for the people out here. That's is why you won't find one single car in Taiwan that does not have a scratch or ding on every corner of the vehicle here  At a stop light when you are next to one try honking and asking for directions, they will never ever turn their heads left or right. You will never ever get their attention.. Friendly people though :angel:


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

stylinexpat said:


> .
> 
> I have been out here for some time and it has been for business. My personal theory for that would be vision.. They don't see very far  Most wear glasses here, they try and concentrate on what's in front of them, they are not very good at doing two things at once. looking back and forth isn't very easy for the people out here. That's is why you won't find one single car in Taiwan that does not have a scratch or ding on every corner of the vehicle here  At a stop light when you are next to one try honking and asking for directions, they will never ever turn their heads left or right. You will never ever get their attention.. Friendly people though :angel:


Huh? Wearing glasses prevents depth of vision?
Huh? Lack of depth of vision is responsible for lack of road rage (road rage is what I was asking about, not car scratches)?
I seriously don't understand your post. Sorry.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

mkh said:


> I totally agreed with what you guys are saying, and this is what I'm doing too. What I'm trying to ask is what if you are cruising at 80mph (yes, 15 above speed limit) in a carpool lane and suddenly Stuka (sorry, just for example) is coming behind you at 95, being forced to slow down and sticking at your bumper. Now should you speed up until he is not at your bumper? Even exceeding 100? So are you saying if someone has a habit of driving at 95mph, then everybody should get out of his way and he should be the only one using the carpool lane? What is the minimum speed one is qualifed to use the carpool lane? What would you say if you get pull over for doing 95mph? I'm sorry officer, the guy is at my back, so I speed up? A carpool lane is a lane for carpooling, not speeding. I'll be honest, I don't drive at speed limit in the carpool lane. I normally do 10-15 above the limit. But I often see people doing way over and tailgating someone doing 75-80.


The law is the law, if you are breaking the speed limit law yourself, then you have no moral high ground on which to even justify you not moving over for the faster car. If you are going exactly the speed limit, then you might have a point. :dunno:

And you must be confusing me with Butthead, I don't use the carpool lane, and I drive the speed limit. :angel:

Wait, Butthead is calling, let me ask...

OK, Butthead said that he doesn't use the car pool lane either. He also said that if you are parking yourself on the left lane going over the speed limit, then he will emply the Autobahn fast driver tactic that Herr Alex knows so well. That is, you keep your foot down at warp 10 and you don't brake until the last possible second (marking an exit lane, of course). This tactic, according to Butthead, is almost 100% effective, both here and in .de. :bigpimp:


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

Stuka said:


> The law is the law, if you are breaking the speed limit law yourself, then you have no moral high ground on which to even justify you not moving over for the faster car. If you are going exactly the speed limit, then you might have a point. :dunno:
> 
> And you must be confusing me with Butthead, I don't use the carpool lane, and I drive the speed limit. :angel:
> 
> ...


Hey Stuka, sorry for the mixed up between you and Butthead! Since both of you don't use carpool lanes, then you two are not those I was talking about. And I apologize again for mentioning your name. 

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just asking a question if there is such an occasion, what should I/you do? Ignore, Speed up, Slow down, or Move out. I believe you had already answered. Thank you.


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Stuka said:


> He also said that if you are parking yourself on the left lane going over the speed limit, then he will emply the Autobahn fast driver tactic that Herr Alex knows so well. That is, you keep your foot down at warp 10 and you don't brake until the last possible second (marking an exit lane, of course). This tactic, according to Butthead, is almost 100% effective, both here and in .de. :bigpimp:


I imagine it could be effective in .de in ways Butthead can't imagine.

If a German driver does this and is caught on video, he pays a nice fine, gets a bunch of points on his record, and doesn't drive for a month. If a visiter does this and gets caught, at a minimum he gets to pay a doubled fine on the spot. Both will get slammed good and hard if the people they are threatening freak out and there are complications.

The _Polizei_ also know about the ineffective driver licensing in the U.S. While most probably enjoy the more relaxed driving over there, they also know a certain fraction don't know how to drive. If you prove you are in that group with Butthead's tactics, you may abruptly discover how this problem is solved in Germany.

But don't let this discourage you from getting a personal and intense taste of other cultures.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

johnf said:


> I imagine it could be effective in .de in ways Butthead can't imagine.
> 
> If a German driver does this and is caught on video, he pays a nice fine, gets a bunch of points on his record, and doesn't drive for a month. If a visiter does this and gets caught, at a minimum he gets to pay a doubled fine on the spot. Both will get slammed good and hard if the people they are threatening freak out and there are complications.
> 
> ...


Are you telling me that...

1. Most fast drivers on the Autobahn don't do this? 

2. The polizei bust fast drivers all the time doing this? :dunno:

Last I checked, Herr Alex still has his license. :bigpimp:

With regards to the "complications" that you speak of, I am sorry that unfortunate incident happened, though I can't say that I agree with the punishment that the Merc test driver received from the richters...


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

JetBlack330i said:


> If they're already at speed limit, it's your problem, not theirs.


You're kidding, right?

I'd assume so, because otherwise you're endorsing what is one of the biggest a$$hole moves on earth.

Only move into a lane if you won't disrupt the flow of traffic in that lane. It's a simple rule and one I thought everyone is taught.


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## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> You're kidding, right?
> 
> I'd assume so, because otherwise you're endorsing what is one of the biggest a$$hole moves on earth.
> 
> Only move into a lane if you won't disrupt the flow of traffic in that lane. It's a simple rule and one I thought everyone is taught.


The scenario I had in mind goes like this... left lane is empty. Slow poke in front of me under speed limit. I move into left lane, at speed limit, for a pass. You come in from behing speeding.
Even in the Autobahn, where there's no speed limit, you're not supposed to threaten me. Read the posts above this one.
Here in US, there's a speed limit. I'm fully compliant. You want me to break the law for you? You want to speed, you go around me, or wait until I complete the pass.
What's your scenario?


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Stuka said:


> 1. Most fast drivers on the Autobahn don't do this?


No. Up north, I suffer a stupid ass such as you described about once per day of driving. (I am probably in the top 10% in terms of speed and perhaps "suffer" isn't quite the right word as I just let them pound sand. Some others react differently.)



> 2. The polizei bust fast drivers all the time doing this? :dunno:


Yes, because the manuever is stupid, dangerous and improper. The person doing this is stupidly putting themselves and their property at risk by relying on someone else to not make a mistake. It is dangerously improper because it puts innocent people at risk. Maybe the person in front of you could have helped out by getting out of the left lane a few seconds sooner, but was it right for you to threaten them because they didn't? In an extreme situation, did they really deserve to be injured or killed so that you could raise your average speed by a few km/h?



> Last I checked, Herr Alex still has his license. :bigpimp:


Alex probably has some local experience. There are a fair number of things you can watch for and do to improve the odds when you are driving fast. Some take a while to pick up.



> With regards to the "complications" that you speak of, I am sorry that unfortunate incident happened, though I can't say that I agree with the punishment that the Merc test driver received from the richters...


Turbo-Ralf seems to have known what he was doing. If you threaten someone out of the blue and they react in an unexpected way, you should take responsibility for your decision. From what I have read, he hasn't. Hence the sentence.

There are just so many ways you can have fun driving in Germany. Why choose one of the poorer ones?


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Hmm, difficult topic.

The traffic laws are getting stricter for Autobahn driving in Germany. They are increasing the controls on the Autobahns with cars equipped with video. The fines are becoming heavier and they have no mercy anymore. Stuka, times are changing here. But at least we still have unlimited sections.

I never trust other drivers when I'm on the Autobahn, especially if I'm pursuing a left lane + 125mph low flight. Everyday a couple of hundreds (maybe thousands) of people passing their license test and getting behind the wheel. And you immediately notice them on the road. The way they use their turn signals, abrupt steering reactions, lack of perception of speed when passing etc. A trained eye would recognize the pattern. 

I always look for empty spaces between cars in the lane next to me. Continously I generate a map of escape 'routes', just in case of emergency. Hitting the doors or fenders is a lot better than getting rear ended or rear ending the car in front, especially at those speeds.

That said, there are of course times, where I'm >< close from getting my license confiscated :eeps:


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## Test_Engineer (Sep 11, 2004)

Alex Baumann said:


> Hmm, difficult topic.
> 
> I never trust other drivers when I'm on the Autobahn, especially if I'm pursuing a left lane + 125mph low flight. Everyday a couple of hundreds (maybe thousands) of people passing their license test and getting behind the wheel. And you immediately notice them on the road. The way they use their turn signals, abrupt steering reactions, lack of perception of speed when passing etc. A trained eye would recognize the pattern.


Had this happen twice today. Both times it was a very young person in a compact car, usually trying to get out of the way of a large truck changing lanes, but none the less they ended up in front of me while I was traveling about 200kph. I usually hitch a ride on the fast train of Audi's, BMW's, and MB's on the autobahn. People tend to stay out of their way when a pack of 10 are doing 240 Kph. :angel: :eeps:


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Another thing you are constantly doing at high speeds is anticipating when slower traffic may wish to use the faster lanes and adjusting your speed so that they don't need to as you go by. If you have to brake hard because someone has pulled out, most of the time that is because you have failed. Either you weren't paying attention and didn't fly by at a good time or you chose a speed that is too high for the traffic density and/or the engine.

I find the fun you have at high speeds is somewhat tempered by the carbonized, spin-deposited brake pad you have to clean off the wheels, not to mention the extra fuel you burn getting back up to speed. I try to maximize the former and minimize the latter!


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## johnf (Sep 16, 2003)

Test_Engineer said:


> I usually hitch a ride on the fast train of Audi's, BMW's, and MB's on the autobahn. People tend to stay out of their way when a pack of 10 are doing 240 Kph. :angel: :eeps:


I usually don't have to wait very long to hitch a ride.

It still amazes me just how many people are willing to so selflessly put their licenses at risk so that we may benefit.


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

Alex Baumann said:


> Hmm, difficult topic.
> 
> The traffic laws are getting stricter for Autobahn driving in Germany. They are increasing the controls on the Autobahns with cars equipped with video. The fines are becoming heavier and they have no mercy anymore. Stuka, times are changing here. But at least we still have unlimited sections.
> 
> ...


I like that " I generate a map of escape routes " , sounds like me when driving scanning ahead and back. Signal of an alert driver. Others change lanes not caring about who is coming up from behind. Some need eye glasses to assist in seeing ahead, imagine how far they can see back in their rear view mirror or :throw: getting those people to look back via rear view mirror!


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

JetBlack330i said:


> What if the right lane is taken by slow pokes, and Dave moved to the left lane to pass them. But Dave is a law abiding citizen, and is driving at the speed limit. The right lane slow poke speeds up a bit and now they are both locked side by side. If you're behind Dave, and irritated, that means you intend to break the law by speeding. Normally, if there was no one behind him, the proper thing to do is to slow dow and move back to the right, behing the slow poke, who's now not so slow. But you're now on his tail, and you're complaining that if you flash, people in front of you will brake. Is Dave really an inconsiderate road hog or should he break the law by going above speed limit just so you can continue braking the law?
> I was responding to your previous comment that he shouldn't worry about what others do or don't do. I agree with that. Law enforcement should be left to the cops. But now you're forcing Dave to break the law, no? *If you want to speed, shouldn't it be up to you to go around him?*


100% in agreement.

I do complain about the "left lane hogs", those selfish bastards that just park their cars in the left lane and really make you understand that they are cruising in the left lane -just this last Saturday this guy in a Sequoia in the Florida Turnpike did the "tap the brakes" in front of me in the left lane for no reason whatsoever although he was carrying a child in the back seat.

However, I also understand and accept that what JetBlack330i is saying not only is the truth of the road but most importanly is the law: left lane for passing vs. going at the speed limit. There should be a compromise between the two seemingly opposite concepts, and in my opinion it should be initialized by whoever is passing.

Unfortunately I have to pass on the right around 40% of the time; it is that bad at least in South Florida (and maybe the reason of the new stricter law of passing on the left). Most of the time other drivers simply move to the right if they see somebody faster than them coming in the back. With a little understanding of what kind of drivers are out there I been able to predict with a good percentage if the guy in front of me is a hog or a lawful driver just passing at the limit or just a little above. Then I give plenty of time to make up their minds because I'll be passing soon, be on the left or on the right. I use my signals and try to make the passing as quick as possible, no games, no cursing. There is no time or space for this kind of crap in the road: just pass and get the hell out of the side of this driver.

Sometimes you get a driver that just have some bad thing going on in their mind and is looking to dump it on somebody. For that reason I can't join the road rage stupidity of forcing anybody to move from the left lane, I just wait and pass somehow.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

johnf said:


> Another thing you are constantly doing at high speeds is anticipating when slower traffic may wish to use the faster lanes and adjusting your speed so that they don't need to as you go by. If you have to brake hard because someone has pulled out, most of the time that is because you have failed. Either you weren't paying attention and didn't fly by at a good time or you chose a speed that is too high for the traffic density and/or the engine.


Or you live in southern california where people will suddenly cut you off for no other reason than it's fun for them.

no amount of scanning ahead will help when a jerk off 15 yards ahead of you cuts into your lane. The typical MO for this type of driver - move along at a leisurely pace behind another car. As a faster moving car approachs from the left wait and be patient. When the car is almost upon them, cut out, chuckle gleefully that you just caused a hapless evil speeder grief.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

JetBlack330i said:


> Here in US, there's a speed limit. I'm fully compliant. You want me to break the law for you? You want to speed, you go around me, or wait until I complete the pass.
> What's your scenario?


Already posted...don't come into the lane if you're going slower than the flow of traffic in that lane. Speed limit = not relevant. rule of the road, if a vehicle is approaching in the left lane at 90 and you're in the right lane doing 65, don't under any circumstances cut into that lane, UNLESS you can get up to or beyond the speed the other car is moving. This is common driving courtesy.

Just as it's common courtesy that if a car approaches from behind moving faster than I am going and I can safely pull to the right lane, I will.


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