# Check out the rebuilt head!



## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Just a few pics of the head that I got rebuilt (to stock specs) at VAC. Beautiful, just beautiful. Seriously, every part of this head, except for the valve guides, is ORIGINAL.


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

Why didn't you go with the Motorsport valve springs?


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Bruce said:


> Why didn't you go with the Motorsport valve springs?


 Cost. I would've loved an upgraded head, but I didn't want to buy the springs. I still have the stock cams and I plan to use them, so there wouldn't have been a huge benefit to the Motorsport pieces. I actually wasn't even going to do anything to the head at all, but my "do it right" instinct took over and I shelled out the money.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> I actually wasn't even going to do anything to the head at all, but my "do it right" instinct took over and I shelled out the money.


I like your instincts. :thumbup:

:angel:


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

·clyde· said:


> I like your instincts. :thumbup:
> 
> :angel:


 My instincts are blissfully ignorant of money or checking accounts. They are, however, quite adept at handling credit cards.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Looking great. 

Why are there numbers on the valves ? (second pic from left)


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Looking great.
> 
> Why are there numbers on the valves ? (second pic from left)


 The machinist numbered the valves before they were removed so that they could go back into their original spots after being cleaned and rebuilt.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> The machinist numbered the valves before they were removed so that they could go back into their original spots after being cleaned and rebuilt.


Cool. It sounds like the way they do at Alpina


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Cool. It sounds like the way they do at Alpina


 As I said before, I was on the fence regarding a head rebuild. After it was done, the guys at VAC told me that it probably wasn't an absolute necessity and that my head was in pretty good shape already.

...But after seeing it all wrapped up and shiny, I'm glad I went for it anyway.  Truth be told, the labor involved in the head rebuild was actually just slightly more expensive than the new set of timing chain rails that I had to buy.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> As I said before, I was on the fence regarding a head rebuild. After it was done, the guys at VAC told me that it probably wasn't an absolute necessity and that my head was in pretty good shape already.
> 
> ...But after seeing it all wrapped up and shiny, I'm glad I went for it anyway.  Truth be told, the labor involved in the head rebuild was actually just slightly more expensive than the new set of timing chain rails that I had to buy.


Yep, very nice..wrapped and shiny.

So, when is it going into the car ?


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Yep, very nice..wrapped and shiny.
> 
> So, when is it going into the car ?


 Well, my other post this morning in the E30 M3 section shows my progress to date. The crankshaft is in the block now, and the new pistons are in there too. I'm waiting on an o-ring for the oil tube in the front of the block, and new bearing shells for the rods, and then I can continue my work. The next step is to work on the timing cover components. That includes a few chain rails, the water pump, and some other stuff.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I've just read the other thread. This is way cool, man !!

Do keep us updated. And also don't forget to take pictures of the story


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Congrats Jetfire. Seems like a pain in the a$$ project, but at the same time a lot of fun. :thumbup: 

My 1990 MB 190E needs a new set of valve stem seals and proably all sorts of new gaskets. It eats oil like crazy. I'll probably get my hands dirty next spring doing that unless I can't figure out a way to compress the valve springs without MB's special tool. I am kind of scared because I have never worked on the engine. :eeps:


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> Congrats Jetfire. Seems like a pain in the a$$ project, but at the same time a lot of fun. :thumbup:
> 
> My 1990 MB 190E needs a new set of valve stem seals and proably all sorts of new gaskets. It eats oil like crazy. I'll probably get my hands dirty next spring doing that unless I can't figure out a way to compress the valve springs without MB's special tool. I am kind of scared because I have never worked on the engine. :eeps:


 If you need head work, either find a very good source of documentation or have it done somewhere. I didn't want to learn how to compress valve springs, check for clearance, install new guides, etc., on my own engine. Cost is definitely a factor, but the price to recondition my head was surprisingly reasonable. And this is from an engine that is known for extremely high parts and labor rates.

Everything else you can do without much trouble. It just takes patience and enthusiasm.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> If you need head work, either find a very good source of documentation or have it done somewhere. I didn't want to learn how to compress valve springs, check for clearance, install new guides, etc., on my own engine. Cost is definitely a factor, but the price to recondition my head was surprisingly reasonable. And this is from an engine that is known for extremely high parts and labor rates.
> 
> Everything else you can do without much trouble. It just takes patience and enthusiasm.


I have the MB cd, meaning, basically all the instructions and all the manuals. Its just that sometimes they require special tools that really are weird and complex and other times their special tools are nothing more than a funny-looking screw driver.

I'll call a few places and see what they quote me. If it will only cost me 3 hours worth of labor then I will just pay it, but if they want 500 bucks in labor alone, I may just try it myself.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> I have the MB cd, meaning, basically all the instructions and all the manuals. Its just that sometimes they require special tools that really are weird and complex and other times their special tools are nothing more than a funny-looking screw driver.
> 
> I'll call a few places and see what they quote me. If it will only cost me 3 hours worth of labor then I will just pay it, but if they want 500 bucks in labor alone, I may just try it myself.


 How many valves does your engine have? The S14 has 16 of them. I'm not sure how many hours I was charged (I was quoted an estimated total price that the shop honored), but I would guess around 8-10. That includes disassembly, thorough cleaning, measuring tolerances, replacing guides, possibly machining down the valves for clearance, reassembling it, etc. etc. I definitely paid more than $500 for it.

Don't get me wrong -- if you feel up to the task, definitely go for it. :thumbup: The head is easy enough to carry that you can always take it somewhere if you get stuck. I'm just saying that it involved more than just acquiring the right tools. In my case, the head is the only part of the engine that I'm not rebuilding on my own. And it's not mysterious work...just precise.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> How many valves does your engine have? The S14 has 16 of them. I'm not sure how many hours I was charged (I was quoted an estimated total price that the shop honored), but I would guess around 8-10. That includes disassembly, thorough cleaning, measuring tolerances, replacing guides, possibly machining down the valves for clearance, reassembling it, etc. etc. I definitely paid more than $500 for it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong -- if you feel up to the task, definitely go for it. :thumbup: The head is easy enough to carry that you can always take it somewhere if you get stuck. I'm just saying that it involved more than just acquiring the right tools. In my case, the head is the only part of the engine that I'm not rebuilding on my own. And it's not mysterious work...just precise.


My car is a 2.6L inline 6. It only has 12 valves. From the manuals, IIRC (it's been a while) it seems like a pretty straight-forward process. I don't recall much measuring, cleaning, etc. The engine still runs smooth as silk, but the fact that it's consuming a quart every 300-400 miles scares me. I'll re-read the manual.

I do have the advantge that that car is seldomly used by my fiancee, so I can afford to have it out of commission for a week or two.

Thansk for the advice!


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

You mean this tool?


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Kaz said:


> You mean this tool?


Not exactly... it actually bolts on to tapped holes in the engine block and it has a lever to compress the springs. I don't see, however, why that tool couldn't get the job done. Like I said, I'll re-read the manual. I'll post some pics when I get home.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> My car is a 2.6L inline 6. It only has 12 valves. From the manuals, IIRC (it's been a while) it seems like a pretty straight-forward process. I don't recall much measuring, cleaning, etc. The engine still runs smooth as silk, but the fact that it's consuming a quart every 300-400 miles scares me. I'll re-read the manual.
> 
> I do have the advantge that that car is seldomly used by my fiancee, so I can afford to have it out of commission for a week or two.
> 
> Thansk for the advice!


 Just replacing what you have to replace would certainly work. I tend to take on an "as-long-as-I'm-in-there" approach to these things, especially on something like a head (which is not likely to come off the car again any time soon). My machine shop did things like check the spring tension to make sure they were all still in spec, and check clearance values to make sure I won't have valve-piston or lifter issues. Does your car have hydraulic or solid lifters?

Kaz -- is that seriously a valve spring compressor? It looks really scary.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

I don't think their prices are all that good for your run-of-the-mill tools, but samstagsales.com sells all sorts of special manufacturer-specific tools without having to source them from the $tealer network.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> Does your car have hydraulic or solid lifters?


 :dunno:

See... here is when I start feeling like a complete ignorant idiot, and feel like I better leave this to people who know what they are doing.

Sometimes I guess I just feel brave/cocky/daring and think "what can a mechanic do that I, a mech design engineer can't with the same manuals? I could be designing this stuff!" And the obvious answer comes... "At least he can tell you if your car has hydraulic or solid lifters, you jackass!"

And then I get scared. :eeps:


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> Kaz -- is that seriously a valve spring compressor? It looks really scary.


Well, the description is: "Valve Spring Compressor, 4, 6 & V8 engines with single camshaft. Not for M102, M103, or M119" :dunno:


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> :dunno:
> 
> See... here is when I start feeling like a complete ignorant idiot, and feel like I better leave this to people who know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


 :rofl:

If I had listened to those same voices back in May, I would have pushed my M3 to a known guru. I would be out thousands more dollars...and even worse, upon the completion of the project, I would have NO idea what was done to fix it. Even if the DIY approach takes much longer and has inherent risks, i think it's worth all the heartache. Not to mention the saved money.

The only reason why I mention lifters is that I think there are certain other special procedures that have to be followed with hydraulic lifters. Solid lifters require valve adjustments every so often, but working on a solid lifter head is relatively simple. I have no idea what's involved in a head with hydraulic lifters -- seriously, it might be absolutely zero additional work. I just don't know, but I think there's more work involved.

Another thing -- I don't know how MB is with their shop manuals, but BMW's is not all that great for the typical DIY guy like me. The manual for my car assumes that certain things are already done, or that the technician already knows some of the procedures. Just read over everything you have, consult anything you can find on the web, and decide. I firmly believe that anyone can work on cars, even engine internals. You just have to be as well-informed as possible. Sometimes, though, the best decision after gathering all your data is to take it somewhere.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Not sure-- but i'd really doubt his '90 MB has hydraulic lifters-- those have only started to become common in the last few years. Then again, that MB was built back in the days of Mercedes "over-engineering" so its possible.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

robg said:


> Not sure-- but i'd really doubt his '90 MB has hydraulic lifters-- those have only started to become common in the last few years. Then again, that MB was built back in the days of Mercedes "over-engineering" so its possible.


I thought hydraulic lifers came into use in the 30s. :dunno:

IIRC with 60s muscle cars, going from stock hydraulic to old-fashioned solids (with a solid lifter cam of course) was a way to help gain HP.


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

mbr129 said:


> The engine still runs smooth as silk, but the fact that it's consuming a quart every 300-400 miles scares me.


Do you know it is the head that is causing the leaking oil? If you don't know for sure then I wouldn't waste me money. I woudl first do a compression and leakdown test to figure out exactly what the problem is...then throw your money at it.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> :rofl:
> 
> If I had listened to those same voices back in May, I would have pushed my M3 to a known guru. I would be out thousands more dollars...and even worse, upon the completion of the project, I would have NO idea what was done to fix it. Even if the DIY approach takes much longer and has inherent risks, i think it's worth all the heartache. Not to mention the saved money.
> 
> ...


To answer you question... MB's manual sound just like the BMW manuals (go figure). Usually they refer to previous jobs, etc. I am at home now and can't seem to find the CD (I bet it's probably at work :tsk: ).

There is a guy at work (another mech eng) who has been working on his '67 Shelby Mustang Fastback for the last 30+ years and is VERY knowledgeable about working on cars. I usually go to him for questions. But he has only owned American cars, so some things he can't relate to.

I feel like, yes, it's going to suck, and I am going to be dirty for weeks, and it will probably take me WAY too long. But at the same time, I will probably never own a car as old as this one with such an opportunity to get my hands dirty. I remember how nervous I was before my first brake job (lines, disks, rotors, etc), and it ended up being VERY easy. So I feel like I should go for it. Even if I F-up my engine BIG-time, my car is worth about 2K. But I wont let it get that far, of course.

My educated guess is that it has solid lifters.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Bruce said:


> Do you know it is the head that is causing the leaking oil? If you don't know for sure then I wouldn't waste me money. I woudl first do a compression and leakdown test to figure out exactly what the problem is...then throw your money at it.


I have read that these engines usually need the valve seals replaced after 100K miles and that the first sign is oil consumption. I got my car with 107K miles and at about 130K I started noticing extra oil consumption. Now it is at 175K miles and as I mentioned it is really bad. There is also some minor leaking (no oil on the ground... maybe a drop or two) from the valve gasket because the engine is wet from motor oil.

But you are right.. I am not certain.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

I think you should go for it.  At the very least you should remove the head and see how far you get. And, if you really F things up, you have two choices:

1) Get it fixed or replaced
2) Toss the whole thing

Either way you'll be learning a lot about your car (and cars in general), which is priceless to people interested in that kind of stuff. Even if you decide to get the head reworked elsewhere, you will save yourself tons of money by doing some of the work yourself. If you pull the head, then decide that you don't want to attempt the seal replacement yourself, then you've lost nothing.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> I think you should go for it.  At the very least you should remove the head and see how far you get. And, if you really F things up, you have two choices:
> 
> 1) Get it fixed or replaced
> 2) Toss the whole thing
> ...


I think you are right. I'll do my due diligence and get as much information as I can and then I'll go for it. With winter comming and all, I will probably hold off until spring since I don't have a garage. That will also give me the time to make sure I get everything I need to get for the job. Having a 2nd car rules.

Thanks for all the advice and keep us posted on your project!

Sorry I hajacked the thread so badly. :eeps:


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> I think you are right. I'll do my due diligence and get as much information as I can and then I'll go for it. With winter comming and all, I will probably hold off until spring since I don't have a garage. That will also give me the time to make sure I get everything I need to get for the job. Having a 2nd car rules.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice and keep us posted on your project!
> 
> Sorry I hajacked the thread so badly. :eeps:


I found the mercedes tool for sale. $295 

Here is the link

http://www.gprparts.com/brands/sirtools/mercedes.asp

scroll to "Valve spring compressor kit" The last one where it says "applicable M102 and M103." There is a picture there.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Zoiks, that's a lot of money. I mean, I've spent way over that, but still. For something as specialized as valve spring compression, I dunno. If it was also useful for adjusting valves, then it's a slightly different story.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Jetfire said:


> Zoiks, that's a lot of money. I mean, I've spent way over that, but still. For something as specialized as valve spring compression, I dunno. If it was also useful for adjusting valves, then it's a slightly different story.


Yeah, it makes the job VERY easy, but it does nothing I can't do with a hand-held tool costing a fraction of that.

My co-worker said all you have to do is apply compressed air into the cylinder via the sparkplug end and that will keep the valve pressed shut preventing anything from dropping into the engine (my biggest fear).

EDIT: Oh yeah, I checked... I have hydraulic lifts.


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## Clarke (Oct 21, 2002)

mbr129;In the past when I used to be a tech replacing valve seals without doing the valve guides usually was a short term fix at best.If you aren't going to that many more miles on the car or doing it more for experience and practice then go for it and enjoy.It can be hard to decide just how far to go on engine work you can easily escalate(for good rational reasons)way beyond you original intentions. Have fun!


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Clarke said:


> mbr129;In the past when I used to be a tech replacing valve seals without doing the valve guides usually was a short term fix at best.If you aren't going to that many more miles on the car or doing it more for experience and practice then go for it and enjoy.It can be hard to decide just how far to go on engine work you can easily escalate(for good rational reasons)way beyond you original intentions. Have fun!


The car has 175K miles now. We may put on another 35K miles before:

1) It dies
2) We get rid of it
3) It be comes the ultimate beater/4th car that I just refuse to get rid of becasue it still runs/they'll give me nothing for it/I am too attached to it.

So I think the valve seals will probably do the trick. The tool can be had for $265 shipped. I could probably sell it for $100-150 after I am done with it. I called the dealership and they want $508 for the job. It seems to be a 3-4 hour job with the right tools.

Since the parts amount to under $50 bucks, I could buy the special tool and still save hundreds. I am still looking for a way to not have to buy it.

Thanks for the advice.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Jetfire,

This car and project rules! Thanks for posting it all.

The poll in the General forum (E30 M3 vs. Mini S) made me think of checking out this forum.

The E30 M3 is still one of my favorite all-time cars.

It looks like you're really going about the rebuild the right way and are doing a nice job with it! :thumbup:

Good luck with the remainder!


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

racerdave said:


> Jetfire,
> 
> This car and project rules! Thanks for posting it all.
> 
> ...


  Thanks.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Hey Jet... question.

The pictures of the pistons... I don't remember if you said they were new or if they were just "cleaned up?"

If *not* new, may I be so bold as to suggest buying new pistons too?

Pistons are subject to a lot of heat and force over time, especially with higher mileage. Plus, you did have a questionable intake seal on #4, right?

Since you have them out already, why not just spend a little more (ok, they might not be cheap... I don't know the $$ they cost) and make *sure* all is well. 

I'd really hate to see you go through all this only to later crack a piston or hole one, etc.

I love spending other people's money. 

But seriously, consider it if you haven't already.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Thanks for the advice. Those are the original pistons; they've been cleaned, but that's about it. I did consider getting new pistons but decided against it. My desire is to end up with a 2.3L engine that is as original as possible, and the original pistons and valves were all judged to be in fine shape. 

Getting new pistons is just a hop and a skip away from going the 2.5L route, which I considered for a while. But in the end, I figured it woud be more valuable to me to keep things as close to the "factory formula" as possible. This doesn't close the door to things like cams, or to rebuilding the engine with replacement parts at some point down the road. Just not this time.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Forgive me for not recalling all the details of the previous posts... you may have already checked this, but...

At the very least I recommend checking the clearance between the piston and the cylinder walls. Chances are everything is fine, but if you're on the outer edge of clearance, you could potentially get piston slap and break a skirt and have many little metal bits going through the bottom end. Not what you want to go through. (I had it happen on a 2-stroke kart motor when I was just learning about them... I learned the hard way)

I understand your point about keeping it stock, but you can keep the bore stock and still get new pistons.

I don't want to make you paranoid or anything... I just want the motor to last many thousands of miles after the rebuild... like I'm sure you do too!


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

I had the block honed to remove as much taper as possible, and I'm using new piston rings. The taper was reduced from 0.0015" to no more than 0.0008" or so in the worst parts. With only 82750 miles on the car, I didn't think the pistons or rods were worth replacing, and my machinist agreed with me. He had the pistons, rods, and block all at the same time, and he told me that everything still checks out. He did offer to sell me some beautiful forged pistons, but I had to turn him down.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Well, like I said in my first post... sounds like you're doing it right.  You're doing your homework and that awesome.

Ok, carry on.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

no self-respecting E30 M3 owner should be without this, especially one rebuilding their own engine :eeps: :

http://www.koalamotorsport.com/mall/e30m3.asp


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> no self-respecting E30 M3 owner should be without this, especially one rebuilding their own engine :eeps: :
> 
> http://www.koalamotorsport.com/mall/e30m3.asp


 And let me tell you, I'm am one self-respecting E30 M3 owner.  If it weren't for Brett Anderson's CD, I'd currently be up Shit Creek without a compass. Or a paddle. Or gloves.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

:thumbup: 

got an extra copy? :eeps:


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