# Delta to and from Munich - Review



## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

Multiple U.S. airlines offer non-stops to Munich from the U.S. In Delta's case, it's Atlanta (Other U.S. airlines that offer non-stop service include US Airways from Philadelphia and United from Chicago and IAD. Additionally, Air Canada flies non-stop to MUC from Toronto).

Delta is the only SkyTeam alliance member with a non-stop to Munich from the U.S. and no oneworld airline offers a non-stop at all.

Until my very recent Delta flight from Munich to ATL, the only U.S. airline that I had ever flown to Munich was Pan Am, and my last flight on PAA to Munich was in 1991. (My only other U.S. airline to Germany flights were on AA from JFK to Frankfurt, and that service was discontinued in 2002).

But I digress.

I was lucky enough to have an amazing purser, Kathleen Hall, on my flight and the ten hours passed like nothing. Delta operates a Boeing 767-400ER on this route and it has fully lie-flat seats with direct aisle access in business class (what Delta calls BusinessElite). There is no first class on the flight, it's a two-class aircraft.

I stayed at the Kempinski Munich Airport hotel the night before and got from hotel to my gate in a matter of minutes, the only short delay being the security checkpoint inspection of my 80x80 cm pillows (not available in the U.S. so I buy new ones every few years and bring them home). The BA Galleries First lounge was nearby and convenient but it was also very tired and in need of refurbishment.

Delta now has Westin Inflight Heavenly Bedding and I would say it's the best in-flight bedding I've had on flights where a mattress topper isn't provided (and that's usually only in first-class cabins).

A few pictures are below. A far more detailed review is online here: *Delta Flight 131 BusinessElite Munich-Atlanta - Review
*


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

United also flys to Munich from Newark using the 767-400 which good plane to fly transatlantic in coach much better than the 757 they use to fly the Newark to Berlin route 


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

I've done ATL-MUC on DL, and it's very nice in BusinessElite. DL long haul premium service has surpassed AA (or AA has dropped significantly) in the last few years in my opinion. Still nowhere near as good as the Qantas, the Asians and Middle Easterns, but pretty good.


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## fishskis (Dec 18, 2004)

Delta's international BusinessElite product was a nice surprise on a recent trip to Paris. The seats and layout are very good. The service, for an American airline, was not too bad. Of course, it doesn't compare to Asian airlines or some of its European counterparts, but it is a very good hard product, and a decent soft product.

That being said, I swore off Delta a few years ago because of their atrocious tiered mileage program. Their availability for standard awards is virtually nonexistent, and their premium awards are double or triple the miles of its competitors.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

fishskis said:


> Of course, it doesn't compare to Asian airlines or some of its European counterparts, but it is a very good hard product, and a decent soft product.


It's nowhere near even half as good as my own home. And that is relatively modest. As an absolute, flying First or Business class shouldn't be something that excites people. But I think it's because Economy class these days is bordering on the American definition of inhumane.


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## eazy (Aug 20, 2002)

chrischeung said:


> I've done ATL-MUC on DL, and it's very nice in BusinessElite. DL long haul premium service has surpassed AA (or AA has dropped significantly) in the last few years in my opinion. Still nowhere near as good as the Qantas, the Asians and Middle Easterns, but pretty good.


On American's new 777-300er they use the same business class seat as Cathay pacific.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## AggieKnight (Dec 26, 2008)

JSpira said:


> Until my very recent Delta flight from Munich to ATL, the only U.S. airline that I had ever flown to Munich was *Pan Am*


That was a couple years ago...I can hardly remember that airline.

;-)



chrischeung said:


> As an absolute, flying First or Business class shouldn't be something that excites people. But I think it's because Economy class these days is bordering on the American definition of inhumane.


Amen, brother. I was reminded of that Sunday, when I was pushed onto a Delta Co-Chair and w/out the benefit of my status ended up in the back of the bus in a middle seat. It was downright dreadful. Next to that, my first class flight tomorrow on Delta will be like a dream and Delta Biz Elite (which I've taken several times now) is near heaven.

With as often as I fly Delta, it's probably a good thing that I've never flown on the Asian airlines based on their reputation.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

eazy said:


> On American's new 777-300er they use the same business class seat as Cathay pacific.


I flew that bird March this year in business from LHR to DFW. A lot of hard plastics around the arm areas. If you're lying in bed, or sitting on your couch, you don't expect your arm to be hitting hard surfaces. Qantas First Class is much more well padded all around for example. I flew them in August.

The service on the AA flight was very poor, which my wife also agreed. What I really liked is the flexibility to eat when you want (in small print on the menus). My 5 year old dozed off on take off, and woke up when they were serving dessert. No problems getting him his main in short order (served after his sundae of course - no way he would have waited later for that).

Another major thing on planes, to me, is the noise of the engines. I'm a light sleeper. Even on the A380. It's noticeably quieter, but I would not describe it anywhere near as quiet. I had that unrealistic expectation though, since that has been professed widely.


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## lezam (Apr 24, 2013)

chrischeung said:


> Another major thing on planes, to me, is the noise of the engines. I'm a light sleeper. Even on the A380. It's noticeably quieter, but I would not describe it anywhere near as quiet. I had that unrealistic expectation though, since that has been professed widely.


Agreed the A380 is one of the quietest long range aircraft I've been on. I feel like jetlag is better on the A380 than a 747 too


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

eazy said:


> United also flys to Munich from Newark using the 767-400 which good plane to fly transatlantic in coach much better than the 757 they use to fly the Newark to Berlin route


Forgot about that flight! Thanks.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

fishskis said:


> That being said, I swore off Delta a few years ago because of their atrocious tiered mileage program. Their availability for standard awards is virtually nonexistent, and their premium awards are double or triple the miles of its competitors.


For the record, I booked this flight as an award flight (round-trip JFK-MUC) and it was at the low award level, 100,000 miles.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

lezam said:


> Agreed the A380 is one of the quietest long range aircraft I've been on. I feel like jetlag is better on the A380 than a 747 too


Having flown on both new planes (I presume you mean the 747-8), I have to admit I found them both pretty quiet. I seem to recall that AF had extra sound deadening material in first class so that could be one reason but my two recent trips in business on the 748 were great.

In terms of jet lag, however, nothing will outshine the 787. I really have noticed a difference on long-haul flights.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

chrischeung said:


> I flew that bird March this year in business from LHR to DFW. A lot of hard plastics around the arm areas. If you're lying in bed, or sitting on your couch, you don't expect your arm to be hitting hard surfaces. Qantas First Class is much more well padded all around for example. I flew them in August.
> 
> .


I've flown i first on the 77W multiple times this year. The seats are very cushy and rivaled any other first-class seats I've flown in recently. It's a bit unfair to compare AA's new business-class seats to someone else's first, IMO. I've only flown in business-class once on the 77W but I was quite comfortable, I liked the 1-2-1 configuration (same as in first class), and found the seat comparable to some airlines' first-class seats and better than most business-class seats.



chrischeung said:


> The service on the AA flight was very poor, which my wife also agreed. What I really liked is the flexibility to eat when you want (in small print on the menus). My 5 year old dozed off on take off, and woke up when they were serving dessert. No problems getting him his main in short order (served after his sundae of course - no way he would have waited later for that).
> .


Out of curiosity, what caused you to give the "poor" rating?


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## pharding (Mar 14, 2004)

This says it all. Mandatory retirement ages for the stewardesses by airline: Lufthansa 45, United no limit, and the winner..... Singapore Airlines 28.


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

pharding said:


> This says it all. Mandatory retirement ages for the stewardesses by airline: Lufthansa 45, United no limit, and the winner..... Singapore Airlines 28.


I'm not at all sure if you are saying you would be in favor of this or not, keeping in mind that a mandatory retirement age such as outlined herein would be illegal in the U.S.


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## fishskis (Dec 18, 2004)

JSpira said:


> For the record, I booked this flight as an award flight (round-trip JFK-MUC) and it was at the low award level, 100,000 miles.


You got lucky.

There is a good reason Delta Skymiles are known as "Skypesos".

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/milesbuzz/1101679-why-deltas-skymiles-called-skypesos.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...-worst-airline-planet-award-availability.html


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

JSpira said:


> I've flown i first on the 77W multiple times this year. The seats are very cushy and rivaled any other first-class seats I've flown in recently. It's a bit unfair to compare AA's new business-class seats to someone else's first, IMO.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what caused you to give the "poor" rating?


Yes, agreed from that point of view. I was actually more wanting to point out the fact that there are other choices where in the air things are not as plasticky - in the air doesn't have to mean a plastic shell (I didn't have a better J experience to tell about). But yes, that would be true for many Business classes, including Cathay, United, Delta and also probably Qantas.

Regarding AA the crew just didn't seem very enthusiastic. My wife is an EXP. You had a request, and it was carried out robotically. One word answers. Not many rotations through the cabin. I mentioned that this was one of the new 77Ws, and it was met by, yes, it's only flown 2-3 times then end of conversation (during a down time in the galley). It wasn't very warm or accommodating - adapting to the passenger. Nothing special with my 5 and 8 year olds - and they usually get a few warm words to settle them down or praise them. If I can't get reasonable service as an EXP, with 2 cute (a little bias) and well behaved kids in business class, there's something really wrong.

The outbound from JFK to LHR in J on BA was much better (9 out of 10). We flew AA domestic F from HNL to DFW last month, and that was also quite similar, but slightly better than the AA LHR flight. Breakfast it seems was optional since most people slept, but I don't think they even made a round with it, and didn't mention it during dinner in case you wanted it prior to landing. Just an example.

AA in my experience seems to go through peaks and troughs. When there are things like Union negotiations, or mergers, then morale may take a hit, leading to drops in service. Not a good excuse, but it does seem correlated.

I've attached a pic of my youngest (4 at the time) in Delta BusinessElite. They don't mind the plastic . My advice - change them into sleepwear, shower them in the lounge if possible, getting them into the routine for bed, feed them, and then send them off to sleep (no video games, TV). You promise entertainment AFTER they've slept as the reward. I've done this many times, and it's never not worked for both my kids.


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## lezam (Apr 24, 2013)

JSpira said:


> Having flown on both new planes (I presume you mean the 747-8), I have to admit I found them both pretty quiet. I seem to recall that AF had extra sound deadening material in first class so that could be one reason but my two recent trips in business on the 748 were great.
> 
> In terms of jet lag, however, nothing will outshine the 787. I really have noticed a difference on long-haul flights.


Haven't tried the new 747 yet, but the old ones are IMO the worst.

Is the 787 better than 777 in terms of jet lag?


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

lezam said:


> Is the 787 better than 777 in terms of jet lag?


The 787 is better than any other current aircraft in terms of jet lag because of humidity levels and cabin pressurization.

See the *787 Dreamliner FAQ*.


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## Bimmerfestool (Jun 18, 2013)

Is that really what they serve in first class these days? I swear economy had better food 15 years ago.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

It's business class - soup and starter. Delta does a good job, from memory. International First Class meals execution, in my experience, often don't meet expectations. They try to do too much with too little (galley capabilities and staff). Or they try to be so different, that it's unfamiliar (eg. SQ Kaiseki meal).

On the other hand, first class lounges where they offer table service are often excellent. I've been very please with SQ - The Private Room (SIN), LH - First Class Terminal (FRA), - QF - First Lounge (SYD). Cathay, British Airways etc. have similar setups from what I've read. I would recommend filling your belly in those lounges before boarding.


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## Hooptyman (Jul 3, 2013)

Dear J Spira,

Thank you for taking the time to post such a nice report on your flight. It is refreshing to read the post of a glass half full type of guy. You are obviously a detail oriented fellow as you took the time to make note of the name of your flight attendant and I commend you for making the effort to do that. I agree that Delta does an excellent job and I go out of my way to fly Delta whenever possible. 

Reading all of the stories of European delivery really has me fired up. I am thinking I need to hurry up and get my 3 or 4 series ordered so that I can enjoy a few days in Europe next spring. 

Thanks again for your efforts J!

Hooptyman


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

JSpira said:


> For the record, I booked this flight as an award flight (round-trip JFK-MUC) and it was at the low award level, 100,000 miles.


That's an aberration, really. Delta award miles are pure scam, nothing else. I was a Delta plat for many years and even back then it was dreadful. Then they added a Diamond tier and I switched to Continental, never looked back.

As a United Platinum, it's night & day. I routinely get award tickets to Europe for 50k RT that my friend who is a Delta Diamond AND living in Atlanta can only dream of.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

fishskis said:


> You got lucky.
> 
> There is a good reason Delta Skymiles are known as "Skypesos".


Dunno about that... I paid for my ED entirely on points, Delta JFK-FRA. It was either 125K or 150K per person... I don't remember which. I could also have booked 2 coach tickets and burned SWUs. There was plenty of availability.

Redemption is getting harder and harder for sure, but far from impossible if you're planning your trip well in advance and not trying to hit up peak seasons for budget travel.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

zoltrix said:


> That's an aberration, really. Delta award miles are pure scam, nothing else.


My wife was a Delta Diamond, and it was fine. I would counter that it's not a scam, because you can research in advance, look at award availability before deciding if you want to join them. Only the most naive would assume that award availability would be plentiful and similar to flights paid in cash.

I booked low award tickets in J for our entire family of 4 to Europe in 2012 - during Spring break. And I've done a few trips to Asia and Europe myself on similar awards. KLM/AF awards have also been booked. Availability to Asia I've found to be quite good, without getting specific. Flights to Sydney with Delta are extremely restricted in J on miles (also for AA).

That being said, I think all mileage programs, and not just Delta's have their pros and cons, hot and cold routes. It's pretty easy to research. But I wouldn't choose a program because of that - I'd put my loyalty with who gives me the best elite benefits where I fly. And since we're now DFW based, that means AA. The miles are a secondary consideration. If you don't have miles, you can always use cash.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

JSpira said:


> In terms of jet lag, however, nothing will outshine the 787. I really have noticed a difference on long-haul flights.


Uh, I'm calling BS. You (and others apparently) are saying that 3 days after travel, the in flight conditons have impacted your body's ability to adjust?

Or are we using "jet lag" as a catch all for other issues related to travel (noise, drying, pressure).

Like nitrogen in tires and oil recommendations, this seems to be one of theose benefits touted but not really substantiated. Boeing started this crap, the media has repeated it, and people seem to be perpetuating it.... IMO 

Anyway, Ive made 6 trips to the EU this year. Generally just book in and out of LHR, then figure out my details intraeurope the week before... Usually AA metal, from LAX or DFW. Once BA to LAX.... which I regretted.

Love the 77W. Business class is fine for daytime flights, a little nap here or there. IFE is pretty good- wifi, port video and sound from your device to the screen, good collection of content...massive improvement over the older 777. Seats are efficient, not overly spacious. Flew J once headed there, slept 4 hrs OK. However on night flights (to EU) I usually upgrade to first- bigger beds. Actually on a sleeping flight I can take the 777 or 77W (the former is the 777-200, the latter the new 777-300). If you'll be awake, the superior IFE on the 77W is worth the effort. I'm pretty easy in terms of service- and usually get cared for due to status, so I cant really compare. (The BA flight sucked- comfort of there odd pods was poor, and service and food prefunctory.)

Flew the A380 to Sydney and back, and agree it is quieter. J was nice, F was nicer. Definitely would prefer it to a 777.

Anyone looking for info on everything 'air travel' should check out flyertalk.

Headed to Munich in 6 days....


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## Stealth.Pilot (Jul 2, 2009)

JSpira said:


> For the record, I booked this flight as an award flight (round-trip JFK-MUC) and it was at the low award level, 100,000 miles.


Amazing. Last year I bought 3 tickets and paid 125k miles each for economy tix on Delta. Booked 12 weeks in advance.

I am increasingly thinking these low-rate awards are not available. Amazed you got it. They are quoting me over 300k miles for business for my trip next month, so I'm taking Air Berlin instead.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Stealth.Pilot said:


> I am increasingly thinking these low-rate awards are not available.


To really get the most out of miles, I thoroughly recommend folks join the Bimmerfest equivalent to mileage travel. There are a few out there, but I like Flyertalk. As a general rule, often availability will be best 331 days to 1 year out. So this usually suits long term vacation planning, as opposed to closer in travel. Flexibility helps. And finally, status matters. I've had different programs open up low award level seats for me based on status - no guarantees. They'll usually open up seats if there is an odd person out of your party who needs that seat, when everyone else already has one. Again, there are ways you can research to better your odds. If you don't have status, then you need to follow the approach above.

I view airlines (and most other businesses) like casinos offer bets - they don't offer you something unless there's something comparatively more in it for them. The game then becomes how to make the odds go more in your favor.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

ard said:


> Uh, I'm calling BS. You (and others apparently) are saying that 3 days after travel, the in flight conditons have impacted your body's ability to adjust?
> 
> Or are we using "jet lag" as a catch all for other issues related to travel (noise, drying, pressure).
> 
> ...


I fly UAL - a lot - and have flown the Firebird 4 times between LAX and Narita this year - and going again next week. I can't tell the difference between a 6K' and 8K' cabin altitude - none. I'm also a pilot, and fly my own plane several hundred hours a year, almost all of it well over 8K'. I don't really notice any difference on long flights unless I'm above 12K and on O2.

Boeing marketing BS on the Firebird's cabin pressure. The seats in E + are terrible but okay in C.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

dkreidel said:


> The seats in E + are terrible but okay in C.


Do you mean E+ on this type of plane? Or generally? I've honestly never seen a person who looked happy when they are in any sort of Economy Plus seat on any airplane I've been on when the section's been full. Although I read a lot about people looking forward to it.

The nice thing about UAL E+, and I'm not sure if that's the case now, is that they often blocked off the middle seat. They didn't seem to fill that E+ cabin. AA it seems has recently been packing in their E+ cabins with elites, sold seats, or oversold E passengers.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

E+ on the 787 is about the same as E- on the rest of UAL's fleet. I generally like E+ 'cuz even us over-entitled 1K's ride in back more than we used to


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## CarSwami (Oct 2, 2005)

As someone who has been a Global Services member on United for the past five years or so, here are some of my observations regarding United:

1) A year or so ago I began to notice that service on United flights was variable, even in business class. When I looked into it further, I found that those flights that are flown using flight attendants belonging to the erstwhile Continental Airlines were invariably better in customer service than those flights staffed with United flight crew. I cannot say that this is universal, but when I find the service better than expected, I ask the flight attendants whether they used to work for Continental and so far they have always answered in the affirmative.

2) Although United has pretty much converted all their planes that fly to Europe to 180 degree flat bed seats, some of the seats can be pretty tight in business class, especially on the smaller 757's which they still fly to some destinations in Europe (e.g., Manchester, UK). And there is very little in the way of storage space near the seats, even in business class.

3) Every flight that I take from Washington Dulles to Europe appears to have the same menu on business class. I've repeatedly told United that they should vary their menu from time to time but I have seen the same menu for the past year or more. United has clearly not listened to my input!

4) United allows Global Services members to use the First Class lounge when boarding the flight in the USA, so long as they are traveling at least on business class. The first class lounge is much better than their business class lounge.

5) The Lufthansa Senator lounges in Munich and Frankfurt airports are very good. And I get to use them irrespective of whether I am flying business or coach. United would never let me use their domestic lounges if I am flying coach.

I travel on United and Lufthansa because they are the preferred airlines for the company that I work for. I have traveled in business class on Singapore Airlines and it was fabulous. Much better than on United and somewhat better than on Lufthansa.

Just my opinion! No flames please!

Cal68


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## Gluhwein (Aug 21, 2011)

I hate every Airbus I've ever been on. It feels like they experience turbulence worse than Boeing products. No thanks.


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

CarSwami said:


> As someone who has been a Global Services member on United for the past five years or so, here are some of my observations regarding United:
> 
> 1) A year or so ago I began to notice that service on United flights was variable, even in business class. When I looked into it further, I found that those flights that are flown using flight attendants belonging to the erstwhile Continental Airlines were invariably better in customer service than those flights staffed with United flight crew. I cannot say that this is universal, but when I find the service better than expected, I ask the flight attendants whether they used to work for Continental and so far they have always answered in the affirmative.
> 
> ...


Agree on all points. I've been United 1K for 26 years straight and after hitting 3.0M butt in seat miles this year am blessed with 1K for life - for whatever that's worth :dunno:


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## Popoemt (Aug 9, 2012)

I don't fly a lot, and so I am going to ask a terribly naive question.. what does it mean when you guys write "I'm United 1k (or whatever airline)"? V/r, Tim


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

Popoemt said:


> I don't fly a lot, and so I am going to ask a terribly naive question.. what does it mean when you guys write "I'm United 1k (or whatever airline)"? V/r, Tim


Frequent flyer benefits vary based off of number of miles flown. United 1K is a status tier which means they've flown roughly the equivalent of 100K miles annually -- basically the top tier mileage-based earning on the airline. They get to board before most people, the customer service line sucks less, etc.

Delta Diamond, United 1K, etc. all indicate people who fly a ton. United Global Services folks are extra special... that is an invite-only tier, indicating United sees them as a high dollar spend customer, and their loyalty is valued beyond that of just mileage-based travel.


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Popoemt said:


> "I'm United 1k (or whatever airline)"? V/r, Tim


Airline top tier status. My wife makes top tier most years for her chosen airline. It takes about 240 hours of flying to do it each year, give or take. That's 6 work weeks in the air - a lot of it uncompensated (it's expected as part of the job description). Plus 40 return trips to the airport in a car. And dealing with jet lag twice a week. And there's the nice benefit of having to run a young family with half of it constantly away from home. That usually involves sacrificing one career.

So the next time you see those early boarders, don't think "you lucky sods" - it's far from desirable.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

chrischeung said:


> So the next time you see those early boarders, don't think "you lucky sods" - it's far from desirable.


LOL, yeah that kind of sums it up.


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## Popoemt (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks for the quick replies, good info to know... :thumbup:

I'll be the guy buying business class and looking like a kid in a candy store!!


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## chrischeung (Sep 1, 2002)

Popoemt said:


> I'll be the guy buying business class and looking like a kid in a candy store!!


That's the way to go. The majority of folks up front on many routes are traveling on business. That means they are usually working, just like in a small cubicle. I like to sit up front with the family and enjoy the experience. Watch some movies, kids play some games, eat, nap. It really gets you into a vacation mood. Working on a plane doesn't.


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