# ####SPOILER####for the Hungarian GP



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Anyone interested?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Spoonface wins another "tough" race by 20+ seconds, in hot conditions, and goes on to explain in the silly post-race interview how "difficult" it was - but only due to the heat. He wins (again) without passing a single car, isn't even followed by anyone closer than 4 seconds, and his biggest stress during the race is remembering where he left the good luck amulet that his wife Corine (H-H Frentzen's ex-GF) gave him.

There you have it. No need for a spoiler - for this race, or the rest of the season.


:yawn: 


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

I was glad to see the coverage for Germany ignore "that red car" for a good chunk of the race and focus on the actual racing going on for 2nd-20th places.

I look at it this way: Just ignore the Ferrari, pretend the 2nd place car is the winner... and you have a great race!


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> Spoonface wins another "tough" race by 20+ seconds, in hot conditions, and goes on to explain in the silly post-race interview how "difficult" it was - but only due to the heat. He wins (again) without passing a single car, isn't even followed by anyone closer than 4 seconds, and his biggest stress during the race is remembering where he left the good luck amulet that his wife Corine (H-H Frentzen's ex-GF) gave him.
> 
> There you have it. No need for a spoiler - for this race, or the rest of the season.
> 
> ...


Maybe Cora Schumacher will show up and make it worthwhile watching.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Williams is going to have a new nose for Hungary. It will be interesting to see how it goes. 

I didn't think it was Cora's nose you are looking forward to though.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

SteveT said:


> Williams is going to have a new nose for Hungary. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
> 
> I didn't think it was Cora's nose you are looking forward to though.


Is that true...no more walrus?

Yeah, Cora's got one sweet nose (among other things)


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

berford said:


> Is that true...no more walrus?
> 
> Yeah, Cora's got one sweet nose (among other things)


It's my understanding that the walrus will be gone.

And I'm not referring to Cora.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

SteveT said:


> It's my understanding that the walrus will be gone.
> 
> And I'm not referring to Cora.


That's too bad, IMO. I liked it, from asthetic and instant-recognition standpoints. Was never too sure about the aero and performance qualities. But if change helps, I'm all for it.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

OBS3SSION said:


> I was glad to see the coverage for Germany ignore "that red car" for a good chunk of the race and focus on the actual racing going on for 2nd-20th places.
> 
> I look at it this way: Just ignore the Ferrari, pretend the 2nd place car is the winner... and you have a great race!


What I have been saying for the last couple of years. Some of the best racing I have ever seen in F1, outside of the very front.


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## Mr. E (Dec 19, 2001)

Strangely, now that the driver seats are (mostly) confirmed for next year, I'm more interested in watching this race than I have been recently. I'm glad the "tusks" are going to be gone, because every time I saw that it would remind me of how pathetically the FW26 has been performing against the red cars compared to the performance of the FW25 last year.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Here's the new nose. Apparently Pizzonia will run the new nose and Montoya will continue with the original nose. They haven't been able to test so they are basically testing during practice on Friday.

The picture is from AtlasF1.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

SteveT said:


> Here's the new nose. Apparently Pizzonia will run the new nose and Montoya will continue with the original nose. They haven't been able to test so they are basically testing during practice on Friday.
> 
> The picture is from AtlasF1.


It look like a new little wing has been added forward of the cockpit. Or is that just the mirrors mounting...or both.


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

I think what you're seeing is part of the "twin-keel" setup of the walrus car... it was just hidden by the tusks before? :dunno:

Either way, it seems to be working better than the old one...


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

racerdave said:


> I think what you're seeing is part of the "twin-keel" setup of the walrus car... it was just hidden by the tusks before? :dunno:


Yep.

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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

*Hungarian GP - Practice* 
08/13/2004

Weather: Dry, partly cloudy. Temp: 26-27°C Air, 39-41°C Track, 39-45 % Humidity 
Budapest (HUN). During an unusually cloudy day for Budapest, the BMW WilliamsF1 Team drivers Juan Pablo Montoya and Antonio Pizzonia set the third and seventh fastest time respectively at the Hungaroring. The Brazilian is again deputising this weekend for injured Ralf Schumacher.

Juan Pablo Montoya: 
First session: 6th 1.23.753 min 
Second session: 3rd 1.21.185 min
Chassis: FW26 07 (Spare car FW26 03) 
We have made good use of today's practice and my lap time was okay by the end of the session. But there's still quite a lot of work ahead of us, because we know there's more in the car. The track was very dirty at the beginning of Free Practice and there was no grip at all, but conditions improved throughout the session and they were acceptable towards the end. However the balance of the FW26 wasn?t ideal under cornering and on the bumpy sections. We need now to address this and get the car in good shape for tomorrow.

Antonio Pizzonia:
First session: 16th 1.24.381 min
Second session: 7th 1.21.574 min 
Chassis: FW26 06 
Today it has been a learning day for me, as it was my first time on this track in a F1 car and I basically spent my time learning the circuit. I am quite happy the way we went through our programme and the results show that it was a productive session. We have collected good data and tyre choice seems pretty clear to us, at the moment, even if we know the track is going to improve a lot. I am fairly pleased with my day but still I know there's more to come from me. We will work hard with the engineers this afternoon and then I'll go back to the hotel tonight and sleep on it and consider where I can still improve. I am sure tomorrow I'll be even better prepared.

Sam Michael (Technical Director, WilliamsF1):
We have gone through our normal programme with evaluation of tyres and brakes. The track was lot cleaner than in previous years due to the new vacuum cleaner used, but still low grip to start with. We also concentrated on the start procedure with both drivers. In conclusion, we have had a good first day here and all the new parts we have brought to the car are working well. Although it is always a bit risky to bring new parts straight to a race, we have had a lot of confidence in the wind tunnel correlation to the track which enables us to do this.

Mario Theissen (BMW Motorsport Director):
The first day of practice with the modified car ran positively smoothly and we made good use of our time. Now it is important that we also manage to set up the carduring the 90 minutes of tomorrow morning's practice sessions. Also the improvement we have made during the shakedown in Silverstone in order to improve our starting procedure showed itself to work well today.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

berford said:


> It look like a new little wing has been added forward of the cockpit. Or is that just the mirrors mounting...or both.


They added those wings as part of the new aero package in either England or France. They straighten out the airflow as it moves to the sidepods. They are new in that they weren't part of the original configuration, but they've been there for a few races.

I think the car went very well for a Friday in Hungary. It's not a favorite track for Montoya. He did pretty well there last year and could have won if he hadn't been held up by Jarno Trulli. Tomorrow will be interesting, first in the practices and then in qualifying.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Ho, hum...

2004 Hungarian Grand Prix--Qualifying 

Pos No Driver Team Laps Time/Retired Grid Points 

1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:19.146 

2 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:19.323 

3 10 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda 1:19.693 

4 9 Jenson Button BAR-Honda 1:19.700 

5 8 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:19.996 

6 4 Antonio Pizzonia Williams-BMW 1:20.170 

7 3 Juan Pablo Montoya Williams-BMW 1:20.199 

8 11 Giancarlo Fisichella Sauber-Petronas 1:20.324 

9 7 Jarno Trulli Renault 1:20.411 

10 6 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 1:20.570 

11 14 Mark Webber Jaguar-Cosworth 1:20.730 

12 5 David Coulthard McLaren-Mercedes 1:20.897 

13 17 Olivier Panis Toyota 1:21.068 

14 15 Christian Klien Jaguar-Cosworth 1:21.118 

15 16 Ricardo Zonta Toyota 1:21.135 

16 18 Nick Heidfeld Jordan-Ford 1:22.180 

17 19 Giorgio Pantano Jordan-Ford 1:22.356 

18 21 Zsolt Baumgartner Minardi-Cosworth 1:24.329 

19 20 Gianmaria Bruni Minardi-Cosworth 1:24.679 

20 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I kept waiting for it to rain at the end ... but of course, it didn't.  

I hope that the McLarens are on a one-stop strategy (right). :tsk: They sucked again today.

Fantastic job again from BAR Honda.

I will now go and enjoy the qualifying for the women's hammer throw. I love the babes.  


-


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> I will now go and enjoy the qualifying for the women's hammer throw. I love the babes.
> 
> -


Watching the hammer, huh? OK, I get the picture. Just started watching the women's volleyball.

I was hoping Williams would be further up the grid. Will have to wait and see now how it goes. A pretty good job for Pizzonia though.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

3 Pole Positions to go....


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

racerdave said:


> :snooze:
> 
> This was the worst race of the year, even through the field. The best part was Montoya somehow getting to 4th after the first 3 corners. Kimi also made some progress, but boom goes the Mercedes.
> 
> :snooze:


Still have not heard what actually happened to Kimi - he left right after taking a shower.

Hard to say if it was engine, transmission, electronic or what have you.

Coulthard's 9th place was also a disappointing waste of time ... McLaren shagged the tire choice for qualifying, and looked horrible in the race.

:banghead:

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## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Woke up 4:30am on the west coast. Switched on the TV. Rubbed my eyes. Turned up the volume. Sat in the couch for the next 2 hours. Went back to bed. Woke up at 11am. Saw this thread. Typing this message.

Was there _even _ a race today? If there was, I must have missed it during the 2-hours I lost. If the wasn't, then I must have been sleepwalking. :eeps:


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## richard (Apr 3, 2002)

I've had it. I'll probably watch Spa because it's a great track, but that's it for me this year. I can't even blame the race track because there's been many other boring races the last few years. After all, Mansell won from 12th on the grid in Hungary and if I remember, he didn't do it ala Michael, he passed on the track. Until the FIA does something about aero dependance we aren't going to see any overtaking. I think Matchett mentioned today that if you get within a few meters of the guy in front of you the car loses like 30% downforce. No wonder we don't see any passing. I actually got more excited watching the swimming at the Olympics than I've been for any GP in recent memory. And I really could care less about the Olympics. Oh well, thank God for Baseball.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> :yawn:
> 
> Told you ... granted, Spoonface did slow down considerably at the end. But another win without passing anyone! I can't wait for the post-race interview!
> 
> ...


So if Kimi was winning from pole to checker....he would be passing who exactly?

Schumi was pissed about last year, and Ferrari schooled everyone this year...again! :thumbup:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Jayhox said:


> It would be GREAT if there was a technical glitch that caused Michael to have to move back in the grid for the start, or start from pit lane. Then we could see if he really is able to actually _*"race"*_ rather than pull off hot laps. I honestly do not remember his last real pass on the course, outside of pit lane.


Well, in Canada, the reds started 6 and 7 and ended 1 and 2, so there was some real passing there, eh?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

AC said:


> So if Kimi was winning from pole to checker....he would be passing who exactly?
> 
> Schumi was pissed about last year, and Ferrari schooled everyone this year...again! :thumbup:


What a well thought out post!

-


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> I would be interested to see Spoonface drive a Minardi for say, 50 laps. Then tell the engineers what is "wrong" with the car and have them fix it. After that, I would like to see him go and race it against a competitive car (Renault, for example). I wonder how it would go - I mean, is it the driver, the car, the tires or just Ross Brawn?
> 
> -


Isn't that type of condition approximately what the proposed rules are designed to show?


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## Jayhox (Jan 16, 2002)

berford said:


> Well, in Canada, the reds started 6 and 7 and ended 1 and 2, so there was some real passing there, eh?


And exactly where, *OUTSIDE* of the pit lane and the dash for turn 1 on the start, did these passes occur??? :dunno:


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

Patrick 520iAT said:


> I would be interested to see Spoonface drive a Minardi for say, 50 laps. Then tell the engineers what is "wrong" with the car and have them fix it. After that, I would like to see him go and race it against a competitive car (Renault, for example). I wonder how it would go - I mean, is it the driver, the car, the tires or just Ross Brawn?
> 
> -


What did Senna used to say?


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Jayhox said:


> And exactly where, *OUTSIDE* of the pit lane and the dash for turn 1 on the start, did these passes occur??? :dunno:


DK...I'd have to review the tape. Are you saying those were the only passes there, too.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I thought we have already covered this topic in an earlier thread awhile ago. But here's once more for the anti-Michael community.

The current qualifying system forced the top teams to change their in-race tactics. Since the teams have to start the race with the amount of fuel left in their tanks after the qualifying, top teams have opted to go with a lighter qualifying car to secure the front places in the qualifying and to be much faster during the first 10-15 laps. If you look at the statistics, Michael Schumacher was/is already 20 seconds or more in front of the second or the third man in these 10-15 laps. In many races, he has even managed to come back out of the pits still as leader. 

Many of you will remember why the aerodynamics and the tires were changed : to reduce the speed in the curves. As Richard pointed out, the change on the aerodynamics and the use of profile tires spoiled the whole fun in the F1. Due to the lack of downforce on and at the end of the straights, the drivers simply don't have the speed they need to overtake. (I'm talking about the top teams here). And not only that, but the F1 didn't become slower, on the contrary, all the track records have already been broken. 

So, team chefs have started to use different strategies to give their drivers enough space to turn hot laps without getting stucked in traffic. Michael/Ferrari combination and R. Brawn's tactics worked pretty well in the last 4-5 years. And add Ferrari's flawless working car (Michael finished his 50th race in Hungary without technical failure) to this.

You have to win, noone is going to remember the second or third one. Because at the end of the day, the sponsors, the investors, the teams, the management, the manufacturers are waiting for the victory. This is all about money, fame and marketing. 

Only you and me, we freaks are going to remember the awesome stunts and passings, but the guys in suit and tie, they couldn't care less how Michael or Kimi or Alonso passed their opponents on the track. They want results. 

Yes, the F1 is not as fun as it used to be, but is Michael Schumacher is the only one to blame ? I have asked this question before, but noone could give an answer. What about the other teams ? They bear the same responsibility like Ferrari to build and develop better cars, reliable engines, better aerodynamics etc.

He might be a boring winner, but his opponents are either sitting in a slower car or they are not as fast as him


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> I thought we have already covered this topic in an earlier thread awhile ago. But here's once more for the anti-Michael community.


 

And I have really been trying hard NOT to make any more foaming-at-the-mouth comments about Spoonface! I think that I have done a fair job of it too!

I agree with your comments.

The Hungaroring is probably the track where boredom is a sure thing - regardless of who is leading. If you are first into the first corner, the chances of you winning or pretty good, barring a mechanical failure.

Spoonface was, and he did.

BTW, it was Spoonface's 51st race in a row without a mechanical failure ... :angel:

Looking forward to Spa!



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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

Yes, I've gone on record as anti-MS, but my post was not about that. Like many other times, hat's off to him.

But the race was frightfully boring. I don't think F1 has a lock on this either. Put a bunch of cars that run the same laptimes (like many of the second-tier F1 teams) on a track where there are no passing zones to speak of because of carbon brakes (too short of braking zones), and you get a procession.

CART is a prime example of this principle, but Bourdais put that to rest when he had a great late-race pass of Tracy for the win on a track even tighter and with less grip than Hungary. But most of the time, cars running the same laptimes just make for a procession.

But I also think Steve hit it on the head... Bridgestone is slaying Michelin this year.

Maybe McLaren or Williams will go back to Bridgestone? :angel:


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## tim330i (Dec 18, 2001)

*HUNGARIAN GRAND PRIX - RACE, August 15, 2004* 
08/16/2004

Weather: Dry, sunny. Temp: Air 25-27°C, Track 37-48°C, Humidity 35-40% 
Budapest (HUN). The BMW WilliamsF1 Team collected seven valuable points at the Hungaroring today, with Juan Pablo Montoya claiming fourth position and team-mate Antonio Pizzonia finishing seventh.

Juan Pablo Montoya: 4th 
Chassis: FW26 06 
Best time: 1:20,715 min (lap 49, 7th overall)
This time I had a very good start! I am very pleased because I gained three places immediately and climbed up to fourth keeping that position until the end of the race. I think we made the best of the car today and we could not have asked for more. After my first pit-stop I lost quite a bit of time behind Webber and this prevented me from getting closer to Alonso later on, but I don't think we could have passed the Renault today, maybe we could have just given them a harder time! Leaving the Hungaroring with seven more points in the team's tally is good. We have more work ahead but it's clear that we are moving in the right direction.

Antonio Pizzonia: 7th 
Chassis: FW26 07
Best time: 1:20,501 min (lap 48, 5th overall)
I had a poor start, it was also the dirty side of the track. The handling of my car was pretty difficult especially in the beginning but we made some changes in the pit-stops and the situation improved. For most of the race I was behind Sato, trying to get close enough to pass him, but I never had the right opportunity to do so. We nearly got him at the last pit-stop but I had traffic in the pit lane. All in all I scored two more points today and this is what matters.

Sam Michael (Technical Director WilliamsF1): 
It was a good race for the team. We have made a step forward, but it is obviously a long way to go to where Ferrari is with their two cars dominating. Juan made a good start and recent improvements made in this area are starting to pay off. Juan had a good race. Antonio had a poor start but raced well. He suffered from a little bad luck during his last stop due to some traffic in the pit lane causing us to hold him back after his stop was completed. Generally things have improved with the aerodynamical and mechanical changes we made to the car.

Mario Theissen (BMW Motorsport Director):
Congratulations to Michael Schumacher for his 12th victory this season and to Ferrari for winning the Constructors' championship before time. Our new aero package has proved positive and has worked very well already. We have collected seven points and this is encouraging because our car has still not done any testing. Antonio had a poor start but had a flawless race after that. His 'off track' excursion cost him one second but didn't affect the final result. In his last pit-stop we could have let Antonio pass Sato but the plan failed because of a Jordan, driving past our garage at the wrong moment. Juan had a very good start and drove a perfect race. Both engines had no problems.


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## richard (Apr 3, 2002)

berford said:


> Well, in Canada, the reds started 6 and 7 and ended 1 and 2, so there was some real passing there, eh?


I don't know if you're being facetious Berford, but since I was sitting there completely bored, I can tell you that there was little or no passing in Canada. Michael won from sixth without passing a single car on track if I remember...pretty drunk by the end of the race. And Alex, I certainly am not blaming Micheal. It's just indicative of the sorry state that F1 has been in for quite a few years. My biggest fear when I hear of rule changes is all the changes the FIA has come up with in the last 10 years has made the sport worse.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

I hope you all realize that next year when tire conservation is going to be a factor, Schumi will likely dominate again.... just preparing Patric for the shock....


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Michael's good and Ferrari is excellent, but if they don't have a tire advantage it won't be the dominance that it is now. He might still win, but he won't just run away with it. Michelin had the tire just a year ago and he got lapped. Without the tire controversy, Monza might have been a different race. The FW25 was very good there even as it was. And then the rain at Indy just played into the Bridgestone strength.

Having said all that, check out last year at Hungary, it was a processional then too. Alonso won because Montoya got held up by Trulli and Webber, I think. Alonso's fast laps were not consistently as fast as Montoya. The track makes Hungary a processional.

The FIA and Max Mosley have been dumbing down F1 for many years. Some of the recent changes are directed at making things difficult for Ferrari. Last year they hurt Ferrari enough to make things difficult and Ferrari may have designed a car that wasn't so suitable. It seems to me that they want to bring everyone down to the Jordan level and that stinks.


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## AC (Apr 28, 2002)

SteveT said:


> Michael's good and Ferrari is excellent, but if they don't have a tire advantage it won't be the dominance that it is now. He might still win, but he won't just run away with it. Michelin had the tire just a year ago and he got lapped. Without the tire controversy, Monza might have been a different race. The FW25 was very good there even as it was. .


Didn't JPM run the fastest ever lap with the new "bad" tires?


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

richard said:


> I don't know if you're being facetious Berford, but since I was sitting there completely bored, I can tell you that there was little or no passing in Canada. Michael won from sixth without passing a single car on track if I remember...pretty drunk by the end of the race. And Alex, I certainly am not blaming Micheal. It's just indicative of the sorry state that F1 has been in for quite a few years. My biggest fear when I hear of rule changes is all the changes the FIA has come up with in the last 10 years has made the sport worse.


I wasn't being facetious. Like I said, I'll have to watch the Canada tape to see exactly how Michael went from P6 to 1st. I'm not certain there was any "real" passing by MS. It just seemed to me that he had to have passed somebody to make up those positions.

And I agree wholeheartedly that he is unexciting, but he (and his car) always get the job done. Last year I think he won as a result of luck as much as skill. This year he has won consistently as a result, IMO, of putting himself in a position to avoid risks and avoid actually having to overtake on the courses. In the long run, that's just a wonderful combination of strategy, engineering, teamwork in the pits and consistent driving performance. And I really do think it's wonderful work, even though it sucks from a spectator standpoint--and it's worse when you're wedded to another team. But it's just too bad for the rest of the field if they can't do the same. Insofar as the "BIG Picture" is concerned, I agree that this year has been a very boring experience. I hope it gets better.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

berford said:


> Like I said, I'll have to watch the Canada tape to see exactly how Michael went from P6 to 1st.


http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Information/F1/Press_Conferences/2004/Canada/can_facts.html


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