# The wonder of DSC was DSC light comes on (and stays on?) out on the track?



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

OK, I am going to get into this DSC thing, because I believe very strongly that the DSC makes most people worse driver than they can be.:thumbdwn:

With regards to leaving DSC on the track, I still think you are flushing $$ down the toilet. Remember, just because the light is not on does not mean that DSC is NOT working. You know that pause when you are accelerating just a tad bit sooner than you should have coming out of a turn? The light is not on but trust me, DSC IS home. And it's busy saving your behind.

Without DSC, it'll be time to feed in some opposite lock.:bigpimp:

So if you are going to pay $400 for Button Willow, $600 for Sears Point/CA Speedway, why not try to l-e-a-r-n the fact that gee, I guess gunning it too soon in a turn in a RWD car means the back end will come out.

It is unnatural and counter productive to your RWD hadling skills to ride with DSC on. A RWD car should and will oversteer if you apply throttle too soon in a turn, lift while you are fully committed in a turn (can we say, Willow Springs turn 8?:yikes: ) That is the nature of the beast.

And in an M3, with DSC off, the car will go sideways even with modest throttle in 2nd (or 3rd when slippery), as Hack found out. Wouldn't you rather know *how to* handle it? Because, belive you me, DSC will not save you from oversteer 100% of the time. You know that famous line on Toadfly M3 board that gets repeated periodically "I turned off DSC, I dunno what happened. My car wrapped itself around a pole." Don't be that guy.:thumbdwn: :bustingup

When DSC throws its hands up, do you know what to do? Wouldn't you rather that you *know* what to do?

Oversteer is not scary, the idea of relying on DSC for the driver's lack of skill *is*. And yes, I know I don't wear the yellow shirt, but in my opinion, RWD 101 should be mastering the art of controlling oversteer.

Oh, and I'll be happy to teach anyone who would like to learn how to drive sideways. Now that I have my car back. Just find me an empty parking lot, and I'll be more than happy to help you get out of your DSC crutch.

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Doode, give it up. Some people like to be "handy-capped" by DSC. This is a battle you will NEVER win Stuka.

Personally I drive with DSC off. It's my car. My wife drives with it on all the time. It's her car. Let the driver decide how they want to, in your own words, "waste" their money on the track. :dunno:


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## chazzy (Apr 2, 2002)

Well, I mostly agree. DSC off for the track, off for the twisties, and on for everyday driving around town. DSC should be learned and utilized under controlled conditions. You're missing half the fun if you're not. Twisties _are_ controlled, right?


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

My last two cars have been front engine rear wheel drive cars (Mustang GT and Nissan 240). I believe it is essential that a BMW driver learn the feeling of the rear end starting to break loose, and how to catch the car. 

I like to turn my DCS off on dry days and have some fun getting the tail out. You may need this skill someday even with the DSC turned on.


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## SpaceMonkey (Mar 13, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> *My last two cars have been front engine rear wheel drive cars (Mustang GT and Nissan 240). I believe it is essential that a BMW driver learn the feeling of the rear end starting to break loose, and how to catch the car.
> 
> I like to turn my DCS off on dry days and have some fun getting the tail out. You may need this skill someday even with the DSC turned on. *


:thumbup: Me too. My first car was a 1985 Firebird, and then I had a 1989 240sx.

I definitely agree about learning how to induce and control oversteer.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Inexperienced drivers need to be very careful until they get the feeling of how quickly the car can snap out and how not to over correct the slide, as over correcting is the cause of most spins. Most crashes are caused by a dumb assed driver driving way over their skill level. I have spun my cars a few times in 30 years of driving (never wrecked), and in all of the spins I was driving over the limits of the car or road conditions. Learn the limits.

Yes I was a dumb ass when I spun the car.


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## JonW (Jan 6, 2002)

I've never experienced this thing about having the back of the car come out, oversteer, etc. I wonder if it's because I have all wheel drive? I've never had a problem with lifting from the accelerator and that making things worse. Could be the AWD? Maybe I'm not pushing it enough? 

Another driver school this weekend. Yay!


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

JonW said:


> *I've never experienced this thing about having the back of the car come out, oversteer, etc. I wonder if it's because I have all wheel drive? I've never had a problem with lifting from the accelerator and that making things worse. Could be the AWD? Maybe I'm not pushing it enough?
> 
> Another driver school this weekend. Yay!  *


I've had it come out very slightly on a couple of occasions. 

Lifting off the throttle is what you do when you understeer.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

JonW said:


> *I've never experienced this thing about having the back of the car come out, oversteer, etc. I wonder if it's because I have all wheel drive? I've never had a problem with lifting from the accelerator and that making things worse. Could be the AWD? Maybe I'm not pushing it enough?
> 
> Another driver school this weekend. Yay!  *


How does the AWD compare to rear wheel drive on the track? Is a 325 SP faster on the track then the 325xi (discounting driver skill).


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## JonW (Jan 6, 2002)

Artslinger said:


> *How does the AWD compare to rear wheel drive on the track? Is a 325 SP faster on the track then the 325xi (discounting driver skill). *


I'd really like to know that answer to that question!

I suspect the AWD provides an advantage. My basis for this is that at my last driver school, I was able to pass pretty much everyone at some point- 330's, M coupes, E46 M3, Corvette, etc. And I've got a lowly 325xi. I think I had a little more experience than many of those drivers, but not all of them. So I don't think I can ascribe 100% of the difference to driver skill. But I don't know.

I'd love to have a track session where half I could run in my car and the other half in a regular 325i.


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## JonW (Jan 6, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *I've had it come out very slightly on a couple of occasions. *


The only time I had it come out at the track was in the rain. And only a little. The SO3's really gave nice feedback as to when they were starting to loose grip in the wet.



> _Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd _*Lifting off the throttle is what you do when you understeer.  *


Especially with those stock Goodyear tires.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> *How does the AWD compare to rear wheel drive on the track? Is a 325 SP faster on the track then the 325xi (discounting driver skill). *


IMHO, it's a disadvantage. BUT, when you're a novice, that disadvantage can actually be a good thing. The xi is just unbelievably forgiving of driver error. You can take it right up to the limit and keep it there with ease. The tail is NOT going to go out on you... You just have to worry about moderate understeer. And even there, the car is pretty darned balanced.

When I was at Summit Point, my observation was that I could drive right at the limit constantly and consistently. I don't think many others in my group could. (That said, I had a massive power deficit and the track had HUGE straights, so not many people were willing to let me pass... I'd hold them up badly until the twisties.)


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## JonW (Jan 6, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *IMHO, it's a disadvantage. BUT, when you're a novice, that disadvantage can actually be a good thing. The xi is just unbelievably forgiving of driver error. You can take it right up to the limit and keep it there with ease. The tail is NOT going to go out on you... You just have to worry about moderate understeer. And even there, the car is pretty darned balanced.
> 
> When I was at Summit Point, my observation was that I could drive right at the limit constantly and consistently. I don't think many others in my group could. (That said, I had a massive power deficit and the track had HUGE straights, so not many people were willing to let me pass... I'd hold them up badly until the twisties.) *


I'd consider myself a novice, so that may explain the observations I wrote, up above.

The driver school I'm going to this weekend is only my third one. I'm looking forward to it very much. 

Like others here, I'm thinking about picking up an E30 325is for track use. If I do get one, that will give me a comparison on rear wheel drive versus AWD.


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## fkafka (Mar 12, 2002)

What's the cause of trailing throttle oversteer? Is it just a weight transfer back to the front of the car when you get off the accelerator, or is there something else going on there, physics-wise?


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

fkafka said:


> *What's the cause of trailing throttle oversteer? Is it just a weight transfer back to the front of the car when you get off the accelerator, or is there something else going on there, physics-wise? *


Sounds reasonable to me

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Hey stuka, where did this rant come from? Was someone argueing that DSC should be on during track events?:dunno: Tough argument IMHO

I figure if anyone left it on was because they didnt know it was on or what it is


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## SpaceMonkey (Mar 13, 2002)

Jeff_DML said:


> *Sounds reasonable to me
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ...


Yeah, I was doing a skid pad excercise this past weekend, purposely inducing oversteer to learn how it feels, and how to correct for it. I stalled a couple times after spinning out, and didn't (read forgot to) turn DSC back off right away.

 Once I was wondering why I couldn't get the rear to kick out enough, and it turned out I had only shut off DSC half-way. :tsk: It's VERY intrusive.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

SpaceMonkey said:


> *Yeah, I was doing a skid pad excercise this past weekend, purposely inducing oversteer to learn how it feels, and how to correct for it. I stalled a couple times after spinning out, and didn't (read forgot to) turn DSC back off right away.
> 
> Once I was wondering why I couldn't get the rear to kick out enough, and it turned out I had only shut off DSC half-way. :tsk: It's VERY intrusive. *


Half way off? Is that a option? For our wagon it is, brief press, Dsc off else hold down for 5 or so seconds turns of dsc and electronic lsd. I turn off both for auto-x/track


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## SpaceMonkey (Mar 13, 2002)

Jeff_DML said:


> *For our wagon it is, brief press, Dsc off else hold down for 5 or so seconds turns of dsc and electronic lsd. I turn off both for auto-x/track *


That's what I meant. I only pressed it for 3 seconds or so, instead of holding it down for 5-6 seconds to turn both off.


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