# Wrecked M3 at track event....



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

*Quote: "smg m3 came out of a long 180 degree sweeping turn..lost the rear end at speed ..spun into the tirewall...hit the tirewall on the rear pass side..spun on its ass end with the front facing straight up...landed on the wheels on the other side of the tirewall. most of us happened to be standing near the start finish line shooting the shit when we heard the tire squeels...turned around..and saw the car hit the tires. f-ing scary looking. both people walked away..pass had minor cuts on his face due to the airbag breaking his helmet facemask."*


----------



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> *pass had minor cuts on his face due to the airbag breaking his helmet facemask."*


----------



## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

Based on seeing those wrinkles, and the fact that the car practically did a cartwheel... I sure hope that thing is considered totalled. I'd hate to take a chance on frame damage and stress cracks and the like.

Posts like this make me never want to track my BMW. Once I fix up my $400 '84 GTI, I'll use that instead. A little less painful if I trash it.


----------



## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> *Quote: "smg m3 came out of a long 180 degree sweeping turn..lost the rear end at speed ..spun into the tirewall...hit the tirewall on the rear pass side..spun on its ass end with the front facing straight up...landed on the wheels on the other side of the tirewall. most of us happened to be standing near the start finish line shooting the shit when we heard the tire squeels...turned around..and saw the car hit the tires. f-ing scary looking. both people walked away..pass had minor cuts on his face due to the airbag breaking his helmet facemask."*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was this a competitive event? I'm sure his insurance is going to go nuts when they hear this story. :dunno:


----------



## bmwork1 (Jul 3, 2003)

SARAFIL said:


> Was this a competitive event? I'm sure his insurance is going to go nuts when they hear this story. :dunno:


Generally speaking, as long as this is/was a "driving school" insurance covers it. My sister-in-law totalled her supercharged 318ti at an event in Ala. They had the car towed to their house and the insurance guys came out, inspected the car, wrote them a check for top$, and towed the car away. The important part was that she was at a driving school.....race track or not!

By the way they were able to remove/resale the supercharger before the insurance com bought the car back.


----------



## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Shows that it's a very safe car! :thumbup:

Steel Grey looks nice too..


----------



## JonW (Jan 6, 2002)

OK, even more reason for me to get a dedicated track car...

Anyone know of a good E30 325is for sale?


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Think the engine and tranny's salvagible?


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Ahh.... 



The HACK said:


> Think the engine and tranny's salvagible?


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

You've got a point there. Then again, the idea behind tracking our own BMWs is to understand more about the handling dynamics of the car.

What is disturbing here is the fact is this is a driving school and the driver spun out on his own. I am not sure how much driving school time he has under his belt. I believe this could have been prevented if he knows his car a little better at a 180 degree turn and that an experienced instructor is beside him. Oh, he must have turned off the DSC as well.

The good driving schools I have attended here in California almost always start off the drivers' meeting with "building the penthouse analogy". This driver probably wanted to "live" in the penthouse right away and not bother with establishing a good foundation.



OBS3SSION said:


> Based on seeing those wrinkles, and the fact that the car practically did a cartwheel... I sure hope that thing is considered totalled. I'd hate to take a chance on frame damage and stress cracks and the like.
> 
> Posts like this make me never want to track my BMW. Once I fix up my $400 '84 GTI, I'll use that instead. A little less painful if I trash it.


----------



## bluer1 (May 30, 2002)

DougDogs said:


> That thing is twisted!!
> 
> Is that a timing device of the dash??? I thought everything is to be removed from your dash, when on the track??


Looks like a V1 radar detector to me.


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> You've got a point there. Then again, the idea behind tracking our own BMWs is to understand more about the handling dynamics of the car.
> 
> What is disturbing here is the fact is this is a driving school and the driver spun out on his own. I am not sure how much driving school time he has under his belt. I believe this could have been prevented if he knows his car a little better at a 180 degree turn and that an experienced instructor is beside him. Oh, he must have turned off the DSC as well.
> 
> The good driving schools I have attended here in California almost always start off the drivers' meeting with "building the penthouse analogy". This driver probably wanted to "live" in the penthouse right away and not bother with establishing a good foundation.


Bet you $5 and a can of whoopass he LIFTED. Went into the corner too slow, applied throttle through mid corner and when it was clear he wasn't going to make the corner, he lifted.


----------



## bluer1 (May 30, 2002)

The HACK said:


> Bet you $5 and a can of whoopass he LIFTED. Went into the corner too slow, applied throttle through mid corner and when it was clear he wasn't going to make the corner, he lifted.


Exactly what I was thinking - quick way to unload the rear axle and end up facing the wrong way.


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

Yup.

Wait..when you said "went into the corner too slow", that means he negotitated a late apex not going slow in speed right? 

People panic when they make a late apex. I know I still sometimes do.... :eeps:



The HACK said:


> Bet you $5 and a can of whoopass he LIFTED. Went into the corner too slow, applied throttle through mid corner and when it was clear he wasn't going to make the corner, he lifted.


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Yup.
> 
> Wait..when you said "went into the corner too slow", that means he negotitated a late apex not going slow in speed right?
> 
> People panic when they make a late apex. I know I still sometimes do.... :eeps:


I had to constantly try and train myself on the track and on the street to practise a good line and try and hold off on apexing early, all the time. Once you've driven for so many years without proper training, it's the habit that you just sink into.


----------



## SONET (Mar 1, 2002)

Another one bites the dust...

I wonder what the stats are regarding the percentage of E46 M3s that have been totaled. Based on the insurance quotes I got ($4800 was the lowest I found on a new M3, while I'm paying $1400 for my 330Ci), it must be pretty damn high because the price difference between the cars wasn't a whole lot relatively speaking. :tsk:

--SONET


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> Yup.
> 
> Wait..when you said "went into the corner too slow", that means he negotitated a late apex not going slow in speed right?
> 
> People panic when they make a late apex. I know I still sometimes do.... :eeps:


Late apex is your friend... 

Its just a matter of getting used to it... I did it a couple times at the last track school too when I was still warming up... once I got in the rhythm of things it wasn't an issue anymore.

I'm guessing the guy lifted, and probably tried to pinch the turn after possibly taking an early apex. I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it....


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

Glad he was OK! The shape of the car is actully surprisingly good after a crash like that! :yikes: Cudos to BMW!

He may have had a Power Oversteer. Floored it too early and the rear end came out on him. Then tried to correct and up he went....
Sound similar to several PIR crashes I've seen - most were Power oversteer on high powered cars. Even an M5 touched the tirewall coming out of a chicane. And the guy had 295 Hooters all around and lots of track events.... Too much power too early.

But then again, it's a Driver Ed, so in a way, it's a lesson.


----------



## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

SONET said:


> Another one bites the dust...
> 
> I wonder what the stats are regarding the percentage of E46 M3s that have been totaled. Based on the insurance quotes I got ($4800 was the lowest I found on a new M3, while I'm paying $1400 for my 330Ci), it must be pretty damn high because the price difference between the cars wasn't a whole lot relatively speaking. :tsk:
> 
> --SONET


Yeah noticed the same thing when I was getting a quote for a M3. Corvette and 911 is a lot cheaper :yikes:


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Akakubi said:


> And the guy had 295 Hooters all around


I'd like to have that many hooters around me... :eeps: 

...wait.... how do you have an odd number of hooters?  

:rofl:


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

doeboy said:


> I'd like to have that many hooters around me... :eeps:
> 
> ...wait.... how do you have an odd number of hooters?
> 
> :rofl:


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: It's a mutant. :bigpimp:


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> I'd like to have that many hooters around me... :eeps:
> 
> ...wait.... how do you have an odd number of hooters?
> 
> :rofl:


Ever see Steve Oberkirk's "Kung Po: Enter the Fist"?


----------



## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

SONET said:


> Based on the insurance quotes I got ($4800 was the lowest I found on a new M3, while I'm paying $1400 for my 330Ci),


 :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

I pay $1400/yr for mine


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> Ever see Steve Oberkirk's "Kung Po: Enter the Fist"?


Nope. I missed that one. From what I heard, I didn't miss much though... :dunno:


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

doeboy said:


> Nope. I missed that one. From what I heard, I didn't miss much though... :dunno:


 No, you didn't.

There was a chick with one boob in the movie though. :thumbup:


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

doeboy said:


> Nope. I missed that one. From what I heard, I didn't miss much though... :dunno:


It's an insane classic.  :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

atyclb said:


> :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:
> 
> I pay $1400/yr for mine


Good ole Ca. Insurance rates and SONET is not married or over 30 (lucky guy  )


----------



## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

The HACK said:


> No, you didn't.
> 
> There was a chick with one boob in the movie though. :thumbup:


One? I'd feel like I was ripped off... being one short is not as good as having an extra one.... like the alien in Total Recall...


----------



## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> ... Oh, he must have turned off the DSC as well. ...


DSC would not have done SQUAT for him in a case like this.


----------



## Raffi (May 18, 2002)

bluer1 said:


> Looks like a V1 radar detector to me.


Most definitely is - you can tell where the serial number sticker is.


----------



## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

The HACK said:


> No, you didn't.
> 
> There was a chick with one boob in the movie though. :thumbup:


The poor driver probably feels like one boob right now...


----------



## TGray5 (Jan 22, 2002)

Anyone know which track that was and which group was running the event? I agree with Hack...he probably lifted in the turn, but would be interesting to hear more from the driver. Looks like he was running R compounds as well, which would indicate that he has some track experience..enough to know not to lift, but who knows.


----------



## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

He didn't necessarily have to lift since it was late in the turn. He could have just overcooked the turn and had the same outcome


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> He didn't necessarily have to lift since it was late in the turn. He could have just overcooked the turn and had the same outcome


On a sweeper?

I guess most of it would be speculation since none of us knows how the car was set up, but I guess you CAN power oversteer on the M3 by applying throttle at the right time in a turn. I've seen Stuka do it numerous times.


----------



## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

StahlGrauM3 said:


> Anyone know which track that was and which group was running the event? I agree with Hack...he probably lifted in the turn, but would be interesting to hear more from the driver. Looks like he was running R compounds as well, which would indicate that he has some track experience..enough to know not to lift, but who knows.


Hallett Oklahoma: http://www.hallettracing.com/

according to S. Medina:



> I'm familiar with that turn...guessing that rear end slipped out....stayed on the throttle, overcorrected.....at speed, especially when wanting to get home in one piece...the overcorrection when the rear breaks loose is the cause of some ugly stuff.....at these events if folks would just realize, that staying in the throttle at DE's, sometimes isn't the best thing.....rear end steps out...give it up...minimize the spin, but don't try and race the thing out by staying on the throttle...
> 
> Notice I say..at DE's, where the main objective is to get home in one piece....Full blown racing, different objective, drive the wheels off of it..
> 
> ...


----------



## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

The HACK said:


> On a sweeper?
> 
> I guess most of it would be speculation since none of us knows how the car was set up, but I guess you CAN power oversteer on the M3 by applying throttle at the right time in a turn. I've seen Stuka do it numerous times.


The first time I spun a car on the track was that exact scenario and I was hard on the gas...it spun about 3/4 way through the turn...the back end just started swinging out...

Next time ya wanna play with a 180 try a dual apex :thumbup:


----------



## Akakubi (Dec 21, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> The first time I spun a car on the track was that exact scenario and I was hard on the gas...it spun about 3/4 way through the turn...the back end just started swinging out...
> 
> Next time ya wanna play with a 180 try a dual apex :thumbup:


Power oversteer, like I said.  We ended up upside down 50 feet into the woods in my buddy's LS400 a few months back because of the same reason.... He tried to power out of the spin when the animal jumped ahead of the car.


----------



## ___lk___ (Dec 21, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> Was this a competitive event? I'm sure his insurance is going to go nuts when they hear this story. :dunno:


updates? anyone know if the driver got hosed on this claim?


----------



## #98 (Nov 26, 2003)

Fact of the matter is that most people who track E46 M3s are in way over their heads. Those cars have just too much power and grip for a beginner to really learn to drive a car. And the faster the car is, the faster things go wrong and the harder it is to recover. I know one racer who used to instruct at Porsche Club events, but quit because he said the cars got too fast...that they'd be doing 170mph in turn 8 at WSIR before the cars approached their limits...and the novice drivers were unprepared to deal with recovery at those kinds of speeds.

I for one would never track my street car because the track to me isn't fun unless you're really pushing it to the very limits. And I cannot afford to destroy a 50k dollar car nor do I trust a car without a cage for a major accident. Well, I might track at a place like Thunderhill or BRP where the walls are few, but certainly not Laguna or Sears. That's the reason I got a real racecar. Not to mention...simply lapping gets pretty old quick for me.

ps-those who think his insurer are going to take this with a grain of salt if they find out the circumstances of the wreck are probably way too optimistic. even the reputable insurance companies will go to extremes to avoid paying a claim, especially a massive one like this, where losing the customer for life will probably cost less than buying him a new M3.


----------



## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

Too many drivers forget that the M3 is a very heavy car, and when you get the kind of speed that the car is capable of moving all that weight , its pretty easy to lose it if you don't know what you're doing. I always think its a good idea to leave DSC on for at least the first session, so you know where the slippery spots are on the track while it can still save your butt, before you switch if off and take your fate into your own hands. There's a lot of drivers out there that have too much pride to leave the DSC on, but having that safety net and being a little more humble is better than being in the hospital or trashing an expensive car.


----------



## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

#98 said:


> Fact of the matter is that most people who track E46 M3s are in way over their heads. Those cars have just too much power and grip for a beginner to really learn to drive a car. And the faster the car is, the faster things go wrong and the harder it is to recover. I know one racer who used to instruct at Porsche Club events, but quit because he said the cars got too fast...that they'd be doing 170mph in turn at WSIR before the cars approached their limits...and the novice drivers were unprepared to deal with recovery at those kinds of speeds.
> 
> I for one would never track my street car because the track to me isn't fun unless you're really pushing it to the very limits. And I cannot afford to destroy a 50k dollar car nor do I trust a car without a cage for a major accident. Well, I might track at a place like Thunderhill or BRP where the walls are few, but certainly not Laguna or Sears. That's the reason I got a real racecar. Not to mention...simply lapping gets pretty old quick for me.
> 
> ps-those who think his insurer are going to take this with a grain of salt if they find out the circumstances of the wreck are probably way too optimistic. even the reputable insurance companies will go to extremes to avoid paying a claim, especially a massive one like this, where losing the customer for life will probably cost less than buying him a new M3.


Excellent post and worth a bump.:thumbup:

Ed


----------



## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

- never mind - old thread -


----------



## chuck92103 (Oct 9, 2005)

Does insurance cover tracking a car?:dunno:


----------



## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

chuck92103 said:


> Does insurance cover tracking a car?:dunno:


Maybe. Some won't. Some will, but then won't renew your policy. Some will once. Not many will cover an incident at an event where recording lap times/racing was going on. Some people take a "don't ask, don't tell" stance and never mention that the car was damaged at the track (IMO, this isn't very smart). What it all comes down to is what's in your policy, right now. Companies can change the terms of your policy when it's renewed, so if yours covered track events in the past, you should check it again before going to the track. Many people are of the opinion that if you can't afford to loose the car and not have insurance give you money, you should keep it off the track.

There are some companies that sell supplemental track insurance, but I don't know much about them since very few of them will insure a car registered in Mass.


----------



## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

I'll insure it for you, $55,000 down payment and $2000/yr thereafter ...


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

TeamM3 said:


> - never mind - old thread -


LoL! Even I was tricked by my own post...


----------



## ___lk___ (Dec 21, 2001)

Mr Paddle.Shift said:


> LoL! Even I was tricked by my own post...


do u know the driver?


----------



## Mr Paddle.Shift (Dec 19, 2001)

___lk___ said:


> do u know the driver?


No.


----------



## vaio76109 (Feb 3, 2005)

"I'm familiar with that turn...guessing that rear end slipped out....stayed on the throttle, overcorrected.....at speed, especially when wanting to get home in one piece...the overcorrection when the rear breaks loose is the cause of some ugly stuff.....at these events if folks would just realize, that staying in the throttle at DE's, sometimes isn't the best thing.....rear end steps out...give it up...minimize the spin, but don't try and race the thing out by staying on the throttle... 

Running PSC's...looks like BBK on the front...with the rotors on backwards.. "

What is this guy talking about? Lifting is a shure-fire spin, staying on the throttle or slowly backing off of you can regain control most of the time(depending on experience). If your slam on the brakes everytime the rear end brakes loose you're not learning anything and being more dangerous than safe IMO.

Just because the rotors are drilled or slotted(can't see in the pics) in one direction doesn't mean that's their operational direction. The inner rotor veins are what determine direction. My bet is that the rotors, like on almost all cars(and aftermarket), are bi-directional.


----------

