# Courtesy is Power



## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Evidently, from some of the responses, you guys deserve it and those who give you grief have no responsibility for their behavior choices because, according to some, you have brought upon yourselves whatever misery customers inflict.
> 
> I apologize for hijacking Ask A Dealer. I was hoping to get some informative war stories from you CA's -- stories that would give Festers insights that might improve their interaction with dealers and result in better deals and dealings for both sides
> 
> Clearly, I was a fool.


or you choose not to listen to real life customers......


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> The dealership has a dont give a crap mentality and THEY decided to act in a way that was injurious to me and didnt care about the consequences of screwing over a customer. Now as a consumer I will return the favor and hit them hopefully in the pocketbook.Why do you think it is up to me to make several phone calls and waste my time helping them sort out their business,THATS THEIR JOB I signed up to buy a car not do pro bono work for an uncaring multinational corporation.


I, perhaps mistakenly, understood that you had an issue with your car which the dealership failed to resolve to your satisfaction. I was just trying to suggest how you might best get your car fixe... oh, never mind.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> or you choose not to listen to real life customers......


I'm sure gettin' an earful here. Moving dangerously close to having some sympathy for you


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> I, perhaps mistakenly, understood that you had an issue with your car which the dealership failed to resolve to your satisfaction. I was just trying to suggest how you might best get your car fixe... oh, never mind.


I did get it fixed at another dealer under warranty...


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> Wondering why this is on the Ask-A-Dealer Forum


Seriously. A few years ago I had the pleasure of having a candid conversation with a high line dealership GM. I asked him, other than a total lay down, what would be an ideal customer? He said, "A customer who puts himself together so we don't have to." He went on to explain all the time they spend with customers looking at $80,000 cars and then when the credit report is run they are one step away from bankruptcy and are in foreclosure. Or the ones that come in as one-leggers and after an hour or more of the sales consultant's time and a couple of back-and-forth rounds with the SM, they announce that they need to go home and discuss the deal with a spouse or need to get a parent's approval. He also described the usual strokes who having nothing better to do on a busy Saturday and how his sales teams are expected to treat all walk-ins as potential buyers, and extend every possible courtesy. He talked about the CSI nightmare and how people don't grasp that 9's won't cut it.

He said the ideal customer calls, sets an appointment and honestly sets the agenda up front, as in, "Your Model Z is on my short list and I'd like to come look at and drive one to see if it might be my next car." Or, the walk-in who says to the next salesman up, "I'm here to buy that red Model Y you've got out there on the lot. If you can go $1,000 over invoice minus the rebate I'm ready to write it up and drive it home today for my wife. Tomorrow is our anniversary. Have you got a bow you can put on it?"

He also said business owners who understand about margins, while grinders, at least get the profit concept and can be reasoned with.

Most of all, he complained about scared people who throw their weight around because, as he said, "Shi# rolls down hill, so there's always the car sales guy you can kick around." He said he LOVES the opposite type. Respectful, modest folks who have clean, late-model low-mileage trades of the brand he sells that are lease returns or owned free-and-clear -- folks who are loyal to the brand, appreciate the cars, have excellent credit and the cash required for drive-offs, and have no problem giving 10's or waiting a day or a week or a month for the right car. And he says he loves making conquest sales when drivers of competing brands switch to his brand. He ended by saying, "Around here, you definitely catch more flies with honey. I just wish more customers got that."

So, Mr. Brown, straighten us out, if you will. After all, this is the Ask A Dealer forum


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

anselansel said:


> lol, the car business is filled with scammers and boors. They bring it all on themselves. Heres a good story. Went to get my headlight bulbs replaced. They wanted 375 dollars to do 30 mins of work. I could have done it in 30 mins at home and I am not a trained bmw tech with a ramp and tools. Stop trying to blatantly rip people off and you will find peoples behavior will improve.....


You have an option to do it yourself. That's great. But those who don't, and prefer to go to the Franchise's service department, know that they are paying more for that service. It's a for profit business that has a larger overhead than Joe's German Auto ...


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Seriously. A few years ago I had the pleasure of having a candid conversation with a high line dealership GM. I asked him, other than a total lay down, what would be an ideal customer? He said, "A customer who puts himself together so we don't have to." He went on to explain all the time they spend with customers looking at $80,000 cars and then when the credit report is run they are one step away from bankruptcy and are in foreclosure. Or the ones that come in as one-leggers and after an hour or more of the sales consultant's time and a couple of back-and-forth rounds with the SM, they announce that they need to go home and discuss the deal with a spouse or need to get a parent's approval. He also described the usual strokes who having nothing better to do on a busy Saturday and how his sales teams are expected to treat all walk-ins as potential buyers, and extend every possible courtesy. He talked about the CSI nightmare and how people don't grasp that 9's won't cut it.
> 
> He said the ideal customer calls, sets an appointment and honestly sets the agenda up front, as in, "Your Model Z is on my short list and I'd like to come look at and drive one to see if it might be my next car." Or, the walk-in who says to the next salesman up, "I'm here to buy that red Model Y you've got out there on the lot. If you can go $1,000 over invoice minus the rebate I'm ready to write it up and drive it home today for my wife. Tomorrow is our anniversary. Have you got a bow you can put on it?"
> 
> ...


nice try, the ideal customer to them is one with great credit, lots of money,little knowledge of car buying and a strong dose of naivete which can be exploited to the fullest....


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

MJBrown62 said:


> You have an option to do it yourself. That's great. But those who don't, and prefer to go to the Franchise's service department, know that they are paying more for that service. It's a for profit business that has a larger overhead than Joe's German Auto ...


Youre wasting your time, Michael... dont get drawn into that which is obviously a person who has made up their mind on a particular set of facts that suits them.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> You have an option to do it yourself. That's great. But those who don't, and prefer to go to the Franchise's service department, know that they are paying more for that service. It's a for profit business that has a larger overhead than Joe's German Auto ...


of course but the price was a ridiculous price designed to scam the unknowing. I told him no way and talked hom down to 160, which i believe is BMWS going labor rate. I dont mind paying, i do mind being scammed


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

jjrandorin said:


> Youre wasting your time, Michael... dont get drawn into that which is obviously a person who has made up their mind on a particular set of facts that suits them.


the facts are the facts, based on real experience not fairy tale notions of be nice and the world will drop its pants for you....


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

anselansel said:


> the facts are the facts, based on real experience not fairy tale notions of be nice and the world will drop its pants for you....


No, YOUR facts are YOUR facts and how the world treats you, and you treat the world. Since you dont believe in "nice" nice likely does not find you, at least as it relates to what you have described. All one has to do is look at your particular posting history on bimmerfest, and its fairly obvious why you would not find "nice" and why "nice" would not find you....

Im not going to delete this, because I typically dont like to do revisionist posting, but I am going to take my own advice and see myself out of this thread.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> I did get it fixed at another dealer under warranty...


Glad to hear it was resolved, hopefully to your satisfaction.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> So, Mr. Brown, straighten us out, if you will. After all, this is the Ask A Dealer forum


Oh, I can't begin to represent an entire industry!

Those who have seen my posts know I reference the Bell Curve of Life. A lot. No matter how skewed it can be or is perceived to be, you end up in the curve. On both sides.

Your GM friend provided some good examples of the "difficult" clients we see. I could add a dozen more scenarios that have come up. But I have others that are what are called in the vernacular "lay-downs," which I hate, that are less apt to negotiate.

I will take the time tonight when I'm off the clock to chat a bit more about it.

Bottom line, is regardless of what side you're on, there are the easy and the hard, the experienced and the newbie, and everything in between.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Seriously. A few years ago I had the pleasure of having a candid conversation with a high line dealership GM. I asked him, other than a total lay down, what would be an ideal customer? He said, "A customer who puts himself together so we don't have to." He went on to explain all the time they spend with customers looking at $80,000 cars and then when the credit report is run they are one step away from bankruptcy and are in foreclosure. Or the ones that come in as one-leggers and after an hour or more of the sales consultant's time and a couple of back-and-forth rounds with the SM, they announce that they need to go home and discuss the deal with a spouse or need to get a parent's approval. He also described the usual strokes who having nothing better to do on a busy Saturday and how his sales teams are expected to treat all walk-ins as potential buyers, and extend every possible courtesy. He talked about the CSI nightmare and how people don't grasp that 9's won't cut it.
> 
> He said the ideal customer calls, sets an appointment and honestly sets the agenda up front, as in, "Your Model Z is on my short list and I'd like to come look at and drive one to see if it might be my next car." Or, the walk-in who says to the next salesman up, "I'm here to buy that red Model Y you've got out there on the lot. If you can go $1,000 over invoice minus the rebate I'm ready to write it up and drive it home today for my wife. Tomorrow is our anniversary. Have you got a bow you can put on it?"
> 
> ...


This makes lots of sense. Not too many CAs/SMs are experienced enough to have similar wavelengths as GMs, but of course there is only one GM per dealer. On several occasions showing(politely) the cashier checks with dealer's names to GMs quickly cleared up all fuss and got the deals closed in no time. :thumbup:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> nice try, the ideal customer to them is one with great credit, lots of money,little knowledge of car buying and a strong dose of naivete which can be exploited to the fullest....


We don't see too much of that on this forum -- or at least I haven't. Mostly I read posts from people seeking knowledge so they can become informed about the brand and what they should plan on paying, and I read from knowledgeable people and enthusiastic CA's who are amazingly willing to share what they know for everyone's benefit. And then, there are the complainers...

It is true that we Festers get good, and often great deals partly because many uninformed buyers don't know better, or can't be bothered, or don't care about a few thousand dollars when they want the car.

In an ideal world everyone would get a fair, good deal and we Festers would have to give up our inside info and killer deals in exchange for everyone else maybe saving a bit.

And, in an ideal world, cars wouldn't depreciate 20% - 30% in the first year. But it is as it is and so we seek advantage.

And dealers do what they do, some above board, some not so much.

But nothing put forth in this or any other thread has convinced me that being vindictive, or nasty, or anything less than polite and courteous, is ever required to get a great deal on a BMW. Certainly my experience over the decades, going back to our family's first deal on a 1968 BMW 2800, has affirmed for me that nice beats nasty every time, no matter what sort of dealer is on the other side of The Desk.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> Oh, I can't begin to represent an entire industry!
> 
> Those who have seen my posts know I reference the Bell Curve of Life. A lot. No matter how skewed it can be or is perceived to be, you end up in the curve. On both sides.
> 
> ...


Thank you. We look forward to reading your thoughts. Into the lion's den....


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

jjrandorin said:


> but I am going to take my own advice and see myself out of this thread.


Yes, I, perhaps foolishly, opened this thread, in a spasm of naivete, but don't leave me hangin' alone with this!! Voices of calm and reason are needed.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

anselansel said:


> of course but the price was a ridiculous price designed to scam the unknowing. I told him no way and talked hom down to 160, which i believe is BMWS going labor rate. I dont mind paying, i do mind being scammed


When you see a TV retailing for $999, do you think you're being scammed at the asking price? Or do you think, well that's too high maybe I can talk them down. What is your definition of being scammed? Retailers pricing their product or service higher than what YOU think?

Either 1) you dislike the car business, or 2) are on the offense any time a retail price is put in front of you.

I guess it could be both. :dunno:


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> But nothing put forth in this or any other thread has convinced me that being vindictive, or nasty, or anything less than polite and courteous, is ever required to get a great deal on a BMW. Certainly my experience over the decades, going back to our family's first deal on a 1968 BMW 2800, has affirmed for me that *nice beats nasty every time*, no matter what sort of dealer is on the other side of The Desk.


This last paragraph highlights an interesting point.

Is courteous/polite the same as nice?

E.g. if a dealer respectfully/politely asks for $2000 over invoice, while others ask for $500 below invoice, is that nice, or nasty?


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

anselansel said:


> nice try, the ideal customer to them is one with great credit, lots of money,little knowledge of car buying and a strong dose of naivete which can be exploited to the fullest....


Not true. The client you described above is a Unicorn. S/he doesn't exist. If you believe they do, you have not talked to someone in the car business.

I never want to profile/stereotype/generalize, but the vast majority of people with "lots of money" are deal-makers, so pretty smart about car buying. People with "great credit" tend to get that way by being frugal.

Yes, we get a good portion of our business from customers with some naivete or gaps in their car buying knowledge. But there is this thing called the Internet, and it helps educate many, many people with just enough information to not make it a cake-walk.

My ideal customers: those that know they want a vehicle *I have *or will order one *from me*. The axiom in the industry is you don't get paid until you sell a car. How the transaction goes is determined by too many variables. All I care is they have chosen me, my Dealership, and/or our car.

The rest is math.

That's ideal.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

quackbury said:


> I did.
> 
> Your long list of possible responses clearly work for you, and that's great. You must have more free time on your hands (retired?) than I do, free time which would allow you to look at 2 1/2 hours of your life, wasted by a discourteous and unprofessional merchant, as a mere inconvenience, and an opportunity to pen a teaching moment for the internet.
> 
> ...


I would have done the same in your situation, and, to me, you were polite and courteous (and took your business elsewhere). I would have reacted pretty much the same as you describe, being frustrated, and likely deciding to leave ( and not going back ). Nothing rude or discourteous about that to me.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

MJBrown62 said:


> You are right, you chose with your wallet.
> 
> You are the client of the STORE, not the salesperson. Treat your appointment that way. You are there to buy a car from that store, not that CA. As long as you accept that, you won't be that disgruntled if they had to meet with a client before you show up 30 minutes late.
> 
> Because, after all, it's just a car dealership, not a doctor's office.


Michael, I get and agree with what you are saying. But there is another option.

My unfortunate experience with the Snapper Rocks 440 was at a dealership other than my regular one, and a CA whom I had never worked with. Every time I have an experience like this, I'm reminded why I never want to purchase or lease anywhere other than "my guy" at my preferred center.

"My guy" also gets stuck with "ups" when we have an appointment. But he is professional enough to have the car I want to drive gassed up and plated. If he's out on a road test with a walk in, the receptionist directs me to the sales manager (not another CA with whom my guy would have to split the deal) who greets me, offers me coffee, and hands me the keys. Or if my CA is in his office with a prospect, he excuses himself for a minute and hands me the keys himself.

He is courteous, professional and respectful of my time. And I return the favor, both in my dealings with him, and by referring friends, clients and colleagues to him. I don't insult him by suggesting that he is a dishonest money-grubbing POS; I treat him like the professional he's proven himself to be. Although you and I have never met, I suspect you (and Adrian, Jon and Greg) are cut from that same bolt of cloth.

And luckily for you, you all stand out from all the Ronnie Eyerolls and Bob-the-Clowns that color folks' perception of the industry.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

quackbury said:


> I did.
> 
> Your long list of possible responses clearly work for you, and that's great. You must have more free time on your hands (retired?) than I do, free time which would allow you to look at 2 1/2 hours of your life, wasted by a discourteous and unprofessional merchant, as a mere inconvenience, and an opportunity to pen a teaching moment for the internet.
> 
> ...


X1000, Well done sir, well done...

Btw the problem here is that these guys posting are probably great salespeople and conscientious in a hive of villainy and scum.The nature of the car business is quick buck and salespeople who are here today gone tomorrow. This does not lend itself to courtesy or professionalism. These good people can't fathom IMO that others act any other way than they do and tend to dismiss criticism as one off events or just grumbling unrealistic customers.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

quackbury said:


> I did.
> 
> Your long list of possible responses clearly work for you, and that's great. You must have more free time on your hands (retired?) than I do, free time which would allow you to look at 2 1/2 hours of your life, wasted by a discourteous and unprofessional merchant, as a mere inconvenience, and an opportunity to pen a teaching moment for the internet.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt you conducted yourself with more dignity than that BMW Center earned.

I, too, value every heartbeat of my short time on this planet and I, too, enjoy the prosperity and comfort that comes from both good fortune and hard work. For years I sold my time by the hour, so I do appreciate the 'value' of time.

You were probably wise to find another BMW Center to give the opportunity to earn your business. We will never know if, after answering the SM's question honestly and pointedly, you walked away from an opportunity -- one where you already had time invested. As I say, we will never know. You did what felt right for you in that situation.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

*Knowing the Dynamics*

I made my living selling insight and was paid handsomely to help people gain increased understanding regarding business deals, marriages, organizational dynamics, and ways to negotiate strategically. My mantra was_* an understanding of the dynamics of a situation will reveal effective strategies. *_ It never failed me or my clients.

To digress, the great psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud discovered that if you can get a person talking, no matter what that person is discussing, what is really on their mind will be revealed through whatever they say about whatever they're talking about.

Siggy also noticed that when offered an open-ended question, whatever the first thing a person choses to say in response, often reveals some aspect of what is foremost on that person's mind.

So I'm having a nice conversation with the GM of a high line dealership and I'm asking some open ended questions about what an ideal customer looks like. I'm asking the GM to tell me what kind of customer he _likes_. His first response is to talk, extensively, about the thing his salespeople complain about most! _I ask him what he likes best and he starts by telling me what is liked least_ - which tells me, thanks to Sigmund Freud, that what he's telling me is really significant in his life. And he's telling me that his salesforce hates to deal with customers who are not nice!!!

This Ask a BMW Dealer forum is a place where Festers mine for little nuggets to gain insight into the car buying experience. We learn about buy rates and money factors and invoice calculation and added value back end money and we get little hints about trunk money and the various ways dealers exercise discretion in approving and sweetening deals.

So I figure I've got this little crown jewel to toss out into the mix - another small nugget that might help us all have better experiences at BMW Centers and make better deals.

I DO NOT claim that I have any secret sauce. I simply REPORT OUT what I was told by a senior executive at a car dealership who deals with customers and salespeople every day. _And the first thing he wants to talk about is how much car salespeople don't like customers who are not nice._

When a buyer and a seller enter a negotiation, the buy advantages himself if he knows what he wants, knows what he wants/hopes to pay, and knows what his upper payment limit is.

The buyer is also advantaged if he knows a lot about what the seller wants and needs and what tools the seller has available to improve the deal.

If the seller gets some of what he wants, the opportunity is there for the buyer to get a lot of what _he_ wants.

So, if we know invoice and a bit about back end and trunk money and we understand about margins and we know the sales staff is all about moving metal and holding gross and finding ways in the Finance office to add dollars to the sale, this helps.

If we know that car dealers like nice customers and that the GM said, "You can catch more flies with honey," when describing how he would prefer customers to behave, then maybe, just maybe, this is valuable information.

So, for those who think dealers are scammers and crooks and jerks and deserve whatever punishment they get, WHO CARES??? Whether they deserve it or not, car sales folks need love, and, according to my very informed source, when they get love, (and it can be tough love) the deals get sweeter.

Kindness is not weakness. It is a sign that one is powerful enough and wealthy enough to afford to be kind. And this shifts the power dynamic in a negotiation, if one can rise above the fray, be amused by the tricks the other side of the desk tries to pull, and keep one's eye on the prize, which is a satisfactory, hopefully pleasant, sales negotiation and car acquisition process.

Okay?


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> I made my living selling insight and was paid handsomely to help people gain increased understanding regarding business deals, marriages, organizational dynamics, and ways to negotiate strategically. My mantra was_* an understanding of the dynamics of a situation will reveal effective strategies. *_ It never failed me or my clients.
> 
> To digress, the great psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud discovered that if you can get a person talking, no matter what that person is discussing, what is really on their mind will be revealed through whatever they say about whatever they're talking about.
> 
> ...


I still choose the word civility over niceness. As I said before, you can pay full price and they will be very nice, laugh with you , be chummy whatever. That vanishes when their juicy payout vanishes. I didnt come to a dealership to make a friend, I came to buy a car for as cheap as possible, as quickly as possible. I dont scream at people, cuss etc but I am not there to make the other guy feel good about himself, thats for his wife, girlfriend mom etc. Frankly I dont care if he dislikes me, I will console myself with the money I saved .....just reality, just business


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

anselansel said:


> not quite, i made an appt with a person, not the store. THEY wanted me to set an appointment, for their convenience. That appointment needs to be kept, THAT'S COURTESY, whether its a doctor a car or financial advisor. Your premise is a salesman copout. Just say you dont make appointments and you might or might not be able to help me, dont pretend we have an appointment until something better comes along....


Such BS.

No, you are making an appointment with the store to buy a car. You will be represented by the store.

If your example is making an appointment with a CA that you have had a relationship with or have done a significant amount of work with, I GUARANTEE that they will try to set up a time that's not on the busiest day of the week. And you will agree with them

If you mean to say that you have a 5 minute conversation with a guy on the phone and set an appointment, and somehow that's this sacrosanct date with destiny, you're delusional.

The appointment IN THE CAR BUSINESS serves two purposes: to have the store know what they have for potential business and what people are interested in, and for CAs to try to work their schedule to accommodate the times that their prospects *need* to schedule.

How many times have you gone to the doctors office and had to wait in your gown for 15-20 minutes AFTER your intake AFTER your appointment time? Do you get pissed and leave? Do you want to see another doctor? No, you understand that this physician is the *one person* that you NEED to see.

That is decidedly NOT the case in retail sales. I am not the ONE person that can assist you. And the dealership can't queue people in line because all those "joking and smoking" salespeople that are "just standing around" waiting for their appointments to show. Or not.

Yesterday I had one appointment show up 45 minutes early, another 20 minutes late, and a 3rd not show without a call.

That's life in the car business folks.

I clearly can't change your perspective. Done debating this with you.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

jjrandorin said:


> @Op,
> 
> I tried to tell you at the beginning that the vast majority of people here on this board somehow equate this with being weak. I personally dont understand that, because "nice and polite" does not mean stupid. For me, it just means not rude....
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> Such BS.
> 
> No, you are making an appointment with the store to buy a car. You will be represented by the store.
> 
> ...


No sir, you are delusional. You want to be treated nice, with courtesy and yet you are willing to throw that out on a moments notice if something comes up to your advantage. Thats why you are NOT treated with courtesy. 5 mins ? how about several emails begging me to come in and follow up calls etc..You need to check yourself into the reality of 2017. A doctor is not a retail salesperson, not even a close analogy...


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

anselansel said:


> X1000, Well done sir, well done...
> 
> Btw the problem here is that these guys posting are probably great salespeople and conscientious in a hive of villainy and scum.The nature of the car business is quick buck and salespeople who are here today gone tomorrow. This does not lend itself to courtesy or professionalism. These good people can't fathom IMO that others act any other way than they do and tend to dismiss criticism as one off events or just grumbling unrealistic customers.


I can argue equally that there are tens of thousands of interactions with car salespeople and prospects every year, and as an in industry we sell some 17 million new cars alone. Not everyone one is having a bout in the hive of villainy and scum.

I have yet to see anyone in this focus group of 5 provide examples of great experiences. And that's the way it is.

It's only talked about when it goes wrong. So what you focus on expands.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> I still choose the word civility over niceness. As I said before, you can pay full price and they will be very nice, laugh with you , be chummy whatever. That vanishes when their juicy payout vanishes. I didnt come to a dealership to make a friend, I came to buy a car for as cheap as possible, as quickly as possible. I dont scream at people, cuss etc but I am not there to make the other guy feel good about himself, thats for his wife, girlfriend mom etc. Frankly I dont care if he dislikes me, I will console myself with the money I saved .....just reality, just business


At the conclusion of my most recent car deal, the saleswoman said, with a smile, "Are we making _any_ money on this deal?" To which I replied, "Well, you're making a friend."

I have received excellent follow up from her. The deal was well back of invoice plus some nice additional freebies. when you're nice, you can have it all!!


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

anselansel said:


> No sir, you are delusional. You want to be treated nice, with courtesy and yet you are willing to throw that out on a moments notice if something comes up to your advantage. Thats why you are NOT treated with courtesy. 5 mins ? how about several emails begging me to come in and follow up calls etc..You need to check yourself into the reality of 2017. A doctor is not a retail salesperson, not even a close analogy...


You made the analogy sir, not me. I responded in kind.

You think we are that prescient that we can know "when something comes up to your advantage?"

No, we are pissed that the sales manager says, you don't have a choice, take the up cuz we're out of people. And the up is someone that wants to test drive 3 cars and then has to drive 3 other brands. While your appointment should have been a slam dunk that you have pretty much closed on a solid commission and now you have to split.

And you had no choice.

You have not lived in this business, so don't make assumptions about what happens on our side.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> When a buyer and a seller enter a negotiation, the buy advantages himself if he knows what he wants, knows what he wants/hopes to pay, and knows what his upper payment limit is.
> 
> The buyer is also advantaged if he knows a lot about what the seller wants and needs and what tools the seller has available to improve the deal.
> 
> ...


Very interesting post.

A paraphrased summary of the post is, be nice, and know the limits of buyers and sellers, and a win-win deal will emerge. That sounds about right? 

My thought of the above is that, such a deal is still built within the framework provided, and at times the framework is set up to create conflicts.

E.g. BMWNA moves publicly advertised incentives into hidden trunk money per request from dealers. Once set up as such, the CA's(as shown on this subforum) become defensive of disclosing of such info, as they now are marked "confidential".

E.g. Once F&I got clarification that BMWFS were OK with them selling about MSRP, the markups started to pile on.

In these 2 examples, the framework established by BMWNA(at the request of dealers?) provides incentives to entice specific behaviors from dealers.

A win-win deal in this current framework is by far not as customer-friendly than a win-win deal before the time these dealer-friendly changes were signed off by BMWNA.

To summarize, and to tie in with thread title, *the courtesy extended by BMWNA to dealers give new power to dealers over the customers, and the courteous customers feel powerless*.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> X1000, Well done sir, well done...
> 
> Btw the problem here is that these guys posting are probably great salespeople and conscientious in a hive of villainy and scum.The nature of the car business is quick buck and salespeople who are here today gone tomorrow. This does not lend itself to courtesy or professionalism. These good people can't fathom IMO that others act any other way than they do and tend to dismiss criticism as one off events or just grumbling unrealistic customers.


Well, what I'm trying to convey is that IT DOESN'T MATTER what sort of person is sitting on the other side of the desk.

Yes, my values guide me toward seeking richness in all my interactions, even with folks who may not be my cup of tea. I was, indeed, raised to believe I had a responsibility for other people's feelings and should be courteous, and caring whenever possible. That's my issue.

But, in a car deal, we are fully aware that many on the other side of the desk will feign politeness and caring or do whatever else they can think of to close us and hold the gross. THAT'S THEIR JOB. And it is a hard, often thankless job that punishes good people who try to make their living at it by being stand up salespeople and it rewards the unscrupulous operators who are drawn into the car business.

There certainly are some shady folks selling cars. IT DOESN'T MATTER!! That's not what this thread is about. I don't need to punish them for their disingenuousness or deceit. All I need is to figure out how to get what I need from them -- and, hopefully, get it in a fashion that leaves a reserve of residual good feelings on both sides that may be of future value. If the salesman's wife has a better evening because I treated her husband nicely, that's just a little bonus karma. But, if as a result of the way I manage my relationship with the salesman, I get the deal I want and some extra care down the road, should I need it, that's good too.

The sales system may be full of venom. I don't need to throw any more poison into the well and, in fact, it may serve my best interests not to. And professionals who sell cars at a high level have affirmed this.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Very interesting post.
> 
> A paraphrased summary of the post is, be nice, and know the limits of buyers and sellers, and a win-win deal will emerge. That sounds about right?
> 
> ...


Nicely said. What is so interesting about complex sales negotiations is figuring out how to figure it out. The internet world and collapsing gross margins and knowledgeable customers are driving more $ into the back end and, sadly, even within dealerships, the true cost of units and the available incentives are closely held.

So, my job as a buyer is now a little harder if I want to get the best possible deal. Success is possible in this environment if one is diligent, patient, and invested in calmly proceeding through the labyrinth that the manufacturers are constructing.

There is always a good deal out there, and there are some helpful people ready to assist us in getting those deals. Truth is, for us to get the great deals, others, who are less informed, less skilled, and/or not nice, pay more so we can pay less.

If someone doesn't like the lack of transparency and is put off by the way things are set up, they don't need to buy an expensive car or they can just pay full retail and enjoy the ride. After all, the MSRP, arbitrary a construction as it is, represents what the dealer hopes to get if the market will allow it. One could argue that buyers are thus advantaged because we walk in knowing the MAXIMUM price and, if we do any better than that, or if a little incentive money comes out of the trunk for us, that's just gravy. Most Festers, including me, want a lot more than a few bucks off of MSRP. So why hate on the dealer for trying to get the published price? Just smile, be courteous, seize the power, and make the right deal.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> Once F&I got clarification that BMWFS were OK with them selling about MSRP, the markups started to pile on.


I have always wondered, when manufacturers spend so much money trying to improve the customer experience, and when dealers need top CSI scores to maximize the back end, why is F&I set up the way it is?

We understand that collapsing margins and front end discounts are recouped in the F&I box. We know F&I people often make good money and sometimes save deals and, for credit-challenged customers, are essential to get folks financed.

And we know that complete price transparency, or the ability for customers to "shop" for add-ons like warranties and GAP would mean fewer sales of these items for the dealer at the time of delivery of the car.

So all of this feeds the "get um while you've got um" mentality and, with the national chain dealers setting benchmarks and gross F&I add dollars per transaction goals, the pressure is on to maintain F&I as a major profit center.

Even many front line salespeople don't like F&I. They tolerate it because F&I gets their deals done.

But, in keeping with the theme of this thread, what goes on in F&I, even with all the smiling and talk about 'enhanced protection opportunities,' is definitely often NOT nice.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> You made the analogy sir, not me. I responded in kind.
> 
> You think we are that prescient that we can know "when something comes up to your advantage?"
> 
> ...


Thank you Mr. Brown for opening the window and letting us peek in a bit.

So tell us, was the GM speaking truth to me when he said customers can catch more flies with honey? Do you feel motivated when a customer is courteous? Or do nasty people get better deals than courteous wimps?


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> I have always wondered, when manufacturers spend so much money trying to improve the customer experience, and when dealers need top CSI scores to maximize the back end, why is F&I set up the way it is?
> 
> We understand that collapsing margins and front end discounts are recouped in the F&I box. We know F&I people often make good money and sometimes save deals and, for credit-challenged customers, are essential to get folks financed.
> 
> ...


My bad, it is meant to say "Once F&I got clarification that BMWFS were OK with them selling* above* MSRP ...." 

Your comments are valid and current. As a courteous customer my strategy is to sidestep F&I by paying cash, plus politely pass on all F&I add-on, so that the paperwork can be ceremonially signed quickly and both parties can move on. 

To further simplify the deal, most of time the trade is skipped, except on high mileage cars. Dealers are reluctant but still quote auction prices, which are fair given those cars can easily incur additional costs(either in owner's garage or on used car lots).

So the main focus is the primary transaction, namely the car purchase(preferably new one) The lack of transparency is not nice, but manageable given this is not many moving parts for a cash buy of a new car. :thumbup:


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Thank you Mr. Brown for opening the window and letting us peek in a bit.
> 
> So tell us, was the GM speaking truth to me when he said customers can catch more flies with honey? Do you feel motivated when a customer is courteous? Or do nasty people get better deals than courteous wimps?


Yes, I think courtesy and respect go a long way to making a deal. We often reflect back what we see. Courtesy is appreciated and returned.

I find that the tide shifts when we start negotiating. And those negotiations that remain respectful end in a deal.

My statement I make with clients is, "If the numbers don't work for either of us, it's not out of lack of wanting to have you as a customer. It's just math at this point."

Coming in assuming the worst and getting argumentative will ultimately get you a deal if the numbers work. It won't be pleasant, but it will get done if it can, but your CA won't be as big of an advocate for your numbers if treated poorly.

But ... I've said this before ... we don't make money unless we sell a car.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

namelessman said:


> E.g. BMWNA moves publicly advertised incentives into hidden trunk money per request from dealers. Once set up as such, the CA's(as shown on this subforum) become defensive of disclosing of such info, as they now are marked "confidential".


As I've mentioned in various threads, very few CAs are getting the new program info provided to them. It's much more about access and knowledge, not defensiveness.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

MJBrown62 said:


> Yes, I think courtesy and respect go a long way to making a deal. We often reflect back what we see. Courtesy is appreciated and returned.
> 
> But ... I've said this before ... we don't make money unless we sell a car.


Thank you.

I have sometimes wondered if there aren't some people who understand that the salesperson doesn't make money if they don't sell a car and thus feel they can get away with being... unpleasant. Sort of like the kid at school who feels intimidated by his peers so he goes home and, when he thinks he can get away with it, punches his little brother, just because he can.

Car salesman as little brother. I always liked it when my older brother went out of his way to be nice to me. Knowing he could whoop me but was nice instead made me willing to do almost anything for him. Maybe there's a lesson here.


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## swood02 (Nov 30, 2010)

This thread ought to be in a sticky if it isn't already. Wisdom for the ages. 


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> it is not up to me to keep trying to give you my money.


Well, when I give a car dealer the opportunity to sell me a car, I am, indeed, trying to give the dealer my money. How much money and how many tries I make are certainly my choice. And, knowing the value of my time, and the 'non-retrieveability' of my heartbeats, I'm still often willing to try a bunch of times, with the same dealer, for the right deal.

I walked from a possible deal on a rare car I really wanted. The SM followed up and wanted to know where they went wrong. I told him the number I needed and didn't mention that the salesperson was not someone I felt was being honest -- that didn't matter -- I did want the car at the right price. So all I said to the SM is that I'd be delighted to come up that day and finish the deal if the SM would meet my terms. He said he would, I restated my terms, the SM confirmed my terms, I shot up to the dealership and bought the car. The SM handled the sale and delivery himself. Though I rarely drive it, I still have the car, seeping oil in my garage, over 20 years later.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

swood02 said:


> This thread ought to be in a sticky if it isn't already. Wisdom for the ages.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


Most kind of you. Just trying to pass along what I have been taught by others wiser than me.


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## Art234 (Jun 25, 2011)

I have found this thread very interesting. I just bought my 2014 535d xdrive off lease because I was able to negotiate a win-win deal for the dealer and for myself. As I have stated elsewhere, the dealer, my CA and the Used Car director are friends and colleagues with whom I have worked in the past, so I did have a slightly easier time of it. That said, I made a few points, including being very specific how much I was willing to pay, and I was specific on how much I expected that they'd make on the deal, pointing out that it was another off lease vehicle that BMW was not taking back, and how it would help their numbers and bottom line if I financed with BMWNA. I was able to get my car for $6000 under the residual value of my lease, including CPO. It was on the high end of what I was willing to pay, but it was acceptable to me and obviously to them. It was a painless transaction for both parties.

The kicker, however, is my experience in shopping other brands...and an experience with Audi in particular stands out. I had visited this particular Audi dealer which is closest to my home on many occasions, including back in 2009 when I wanted an A4 (I wound up buying it from another dealer because the salesperson I had at this place knew less about the car than I did). Admittedly, two years into the ownership experience I had a fail with Audi (oil consumption), and traded the car to my BMW dealership for my first 535.
I had returned to the closer dealership a couple of times when looking for a car for my wife, and found each salesperson deficient in product knowledge and sales skills, but went in March again because it was closest. I was looking at the Allroad, which is still quite rare and getting hard to find. I met the most qualified, personable and apparently honest sales advisor that I have ever seen at that particular store. 

I told him up front what my goals were (this was before I got my deal on my car). I told him that I would not pay over $500 over invoice for the car, that I did not mind ordering from the factory, that I must test drive it, and that I do not talk to F&I people. I also mentioned up front that I was hoping to buy my car off lease, but the deal was not sweet enough yet. I made an appointment for a test drive, showed up at the given time and he was with another customer, but acknowledged me immediately, excused himself to apologize for the delay, and made his best effort to get to me as soon as he could. The car was ready to drive, and we had a very thorough test drive. To be honest, had I not gotten my car at an acceptable price, I'd be driving the Allroad now.

We followed up with each other, but in the mean time, he had gotten his manager's approval to factory order the car at the price I was willing to pay. Unfortunately for him, however, the deal came through for my 535d, and he was the first person I called to inform him that I was keeping my BMW. I thanked him for his time, and apologized in case he thought he had wasted his time with me, but he said no, he enjoyed talking to me, and hoped to earn my business in the future (he will!).

I really admire this guy, and have given his card to friends looking for Audis. He is an amazing young man, who reminds me of myself in years past.......so they are out there, you just have to find them.

I will also add that my BMW CA is a sales rep who I coached when he started in the business, and he always tells customers when I visit him that I trained him--the ultimate compliment from a now 20 year friend.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Reading the last half-a-dozen posts, I'm struck by a thought, and have a question to pose to Michael and any other CA's who may be reading.

The thought: In an age of texts, Tweets and twits, I suspect the average American is less skilled at entering into a conversation with a stranger than was the case 20 years ago. And I suspect this lost art of conversation / negotiation occurs on both sides of the table. I suspect Millennials just want to order from Amazon, not take the time researching all the financial nuances of a deal, schmoozing a CA, and negotiating. Whereas I suspect that's much of the fun in car-buying for us Baby Boomer Festers. And I suspect it's harder for GSM's to find good CA's who can sell anything, even that 535 GT that was ordered with HUD but no NAV.

There is a strong "sales" component to my chosen career, and I LOVE to work with someone who is a good "salesman" - a true professional, who knows his or her product, can size up a customer, elicit information from him or her, and then use that creatively to overcome objections, motivate the customer to purchase a car, and help the customer walk out of the showroom feeling great about the whole experience. When I ask a sales professional, "Did anybody ever tell you that you should be in sales?" I mean it as a sincere compliment.

So my question to Michael, Adrian and any other CA that may be reading: Have you seen the skill set change on both sides of the table over the past decade? Do you find Millennials require a different sales process than Boomers? Which group do you find more enjoyable to work with? Are there "old timers" in your center who can sell ice to Eskimos, whose approach and "spiel" you try to emulate? Do your younger associates struggle to develop rapport with customers who aren't "just like them"? Margins and technology aside, is it difficult for young men and women to come into a center and be successful, because they are lacking many of the "people skills" to be a top producer?


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Art234 said:


> I will also add that my BMW CA is a sales rep who *I coached when he started in the business*, and he always tells customers when I visit him that I trained him--the ultimate compliment from a now 20 year friend.


This statement implies that the apprentice paid homage to the sensei, who was seasoned pro of the business anyway.

This account of events is not typical of amateur buy side experience.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

quackbury said:


> Reading the last half-a-dozen posts, I'm struck by a thought, and have a question to pose to Michael and any other CA's who may be reading.
> 
> The thought: In an age of texts, Tweets and twits, I suspect the average American is less skilled at entering into a conversation with a stranger than was the case 20 years ago. And I suspect this lost art of conversation / negotiation occurs on both sides of the table. I suspect Millennials just want to order from Amazon, not take the time researching all the financial nuances of a deal, schmoozing a CA, and negotiating. Whereas I suspect that's much of the fun in car-buying for us Baby Boomer Festers. And I suspect it's harder for GSM's to find good CA's who can sell anything, even that 535 GT that was ordered with HUD but no NAV.
> 
> ...


good point, i Find most millenials can barely carry a conversation much less sell you anything.They simply don't have interpersonal skills and are special snowflakes who can't handle pressure or confrontation. They all text everything even sitting in the same room with each other...


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

quackbury said:


> Reading the last half-a-dozen posts, I'm struck by a thought, and have a question to pose to Michael and any other CA's who may be reading ...


Just some thoughts while I sip on some coffee with my dog at my side, doing my follow-up from a busy retail day.

*First, just to tag onto my "scheduling nightmare" that ansel and I have gone back and forth on:*
10:45 appt: Arrived at 10:15 Sold Used Audi
1:00 appt #1: Called to confirm; she put a deposit on a vehicle elsewhere, forgot to call me to cancel
1:00 appt #2: Arrived at 1:45, no sale; numbers too far apart
2:00: Repeat customer drops in to say hi and talk about the M2 waiting list, etc.
3:30 appt: arrived at 3:00. On deposit for later today
4:00 appt #1: Had to turn it to another CA, no sale
4:00 appt #2: Had to turn it to another CA, no sale but coming back Monday
4:30 appt: No show, no call

The stacked up appointments were people who 1) only wanted to come in yesterday, 2) didn't have flexibility on time, so 3) knew in advance that if I wasn't available a colleague would assist.

Plus, I had to get up to the local Audi dealer to pick up the car I sold (customer wanted a PPI but didn't get back in time from a trip to pick it up yesterday, so I needed to get it,) put on license plates for a good client, handled 8 fresh internet inquiries through the system (we have five IAs,) provided 2 quotes to off-site clients, and generally kept at it from 8:00 to about 7:00.

A typical internet sales Saturday.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

BMW is training us to sell to Millennials, as they see this group as the biggest growth Demographic. So they emphasize all the things you stereo-typically think: Fast responses, multiple media, precise numbers, know your stuff.

But simply stated: this could describe any age group.

I have plenty of clients in their 60s that have and do run their own businesses, or have active, fast-paced lifestyles, and prefer to be texted or emailed versus calls and in-person visits.

So despite BMWs emphasis, I approach everyone the same way and with an open approach. I'll ask them what they prefer, and they will let me know.

My Boss always wants us to "hit the phones," but today that's not always the best way to get someone. "Everyone" has a cell phone. A quick text will get responded to faster than a voice mail. Many of my clients (and I) have visual voice mail anyway: translates the VM to Text on you phone, so it's the same thing as texting anyway.

So I don't think it's about age or technology, as much as it is training new salespeople to ask the client what works for them. And then do it that way. If someone says, "I get 200 emails a day ...just text me" then you best do it that way or alienate your client.

I don't have a group that I prefer to work with ... for me it's more of which types of negotiators do I prefer. And I honestly narrow that down to one "group" of people I prefer: those who know how the deal is constructed but are open to new information and actually negotiating. It's surprisingly fewer than you'd think.

Examples of what I mean:


Understanding that there is a finite pool of margin we work with. If we have an actual cash value for us of $10,000 for the trade, and you want $12,000, that $2,000 comes from margin in the deal, not just us deciding that we will up the value to us by $2,000 and hope we make it back on the next deal or at auction. 
Realize your lease calculator is only as good as your data input! The most common mistake for the Calculator Commandos is forgetting to capitalize the Acquisition Fee. $30/month payment error.
Have come with a range of information. Not just Edmunds says this, or KBB says this. Show me 2 or 3 sources, let me see what you spec'd out on your KBB. Because I for sure will do that every time you say, "Well the KBB good value is $xx.

If the client understands these things and is willing to work with me, I'm a happy camper.

Back to salespeople. I think it is a certainty that the top producing salespeople have an ability to relate to the client and have a pace to their process that is not too quick yet not too slow. New people tend to go too fast, skip steps, miss information, not ask key questions, etc., any one of which can derail a good beginning. In contrast, that elder statesman that "came with the building" might have a pace that's too slow for some. Offer product knowledge not asked for, or to be quite blunt, aren't too excited about searching the lot to find that one car you want.

So what are the common denominators of top producers (from this focus group of one):

Sincerity: Mean what you say. Find out answers if you don't know them. Be authentic.
Directness: That one is pretty straightforward. Even the greenest of buyers will see when a CA is dancing around something.
Energy: Be genuinely interested in selling them a car. Enthusiasm about the brand and the dealership. This doesn't mean acting like the dancing balloon guy out front (although that works for some.)
Knowledge: Know how leases work, all the details. Know your product and know how to quickly get an answer to a question you don't know. Don't fake it. Understand what resources clients have to assess the deal.
 Temperament: You can't lose your cool, patience or respectfulness if the negotiation is getting difficult. The best CAs can handle the pressure.

These skills are not equally distributed of course. Your top producer could be 50% Energy, 30% Sincerity, and 20% of the others. We have two top producers each month, and they are nearly diametrically opposite profiles, but a mix of all 5.

And again, I'm speaking only from my experience, the vast majority of car sales people never had it as their career of choice. I'm a 54-year old guy with a business degree who worked as a researcher and analyst for 17+ years before getting in the business. My entry was moving back to my home state to be with my father who was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Long story short, I ended up selling cars to make money at an income level that I was accustomed to as an analyst. The rest, as they say is history.

The other type of CA is the young person with a high school degree who sees selling cars as a way to make a lot more money that they could otherwise (which if they succeed is statistically very true.)

And there a thousands of stories just like these. Some get the very limited opportunity to move up into management, and then you are on to a career and more income than the average CA. But for many, the career is thousands of test drives!

I say this to point out that this isn't an industry that people come into it well trained in any aspect of it. We either have the skills or we don't. Those that do (or learn the skills,) will make good money and have a good career, possibly moving on the slow train called a career path.

Others will "blow out," as we call it, or not get past the 30/60/90 day probationary period due to low sales.

If you can excel at most of the 5 things above, you can succeed. And it won't matter if you meet with a Millennial or a Boomer.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

The experience of buying a BMW is different from that of buying a Hyundai or a cheap Chevrolet. I buy (or attempted to buy in the case of the Hyundai) all three, and it's day an night.

Most peasants are weak and stupid. So, the sales strategy for the selling the peasant cars is different. The best results come from pushing the customer around. Yeah, a few might walk away. But, most will stay there and take it, and hand over a lot more money than they needed to.

The locally-owned, formerly exceptionally well run VW-Honda dealership where I live went from being a father and son operation to being owned by a mega-dealership chain, and then changed hands again. The top salesman when it was a father and son operation lasted about three months. The mega-dealership's strategy is to hire more salesman then can survive on the sales volume they have, and see who survives. The salesmen are in a life and death fight with customers and each other every day they come to work. They're constantly skimming of the shark carcasses from the tank, and then add fresh sharks to the tank. 

Frau Putzer is overdue for new car. Plan A was a Honda CR-V. But, we wanted AWD (for our upcoming move to the foothills of the Smoky Mountains) and I wanted a factory ordered car that had exactly what we wanted and wasn't scratched up by the dealer's minimum-wage wash monkeys. I told Frau Putzer to find and develop a rapport with an unaggressive salesman when she was there getting her car serviced : a rookie, a female, and/or a racial minority. (The population where I live is over 80% white.) She found the perfect guy: physically small, Black, and new in the car sales business. The "fair price" for Honda's where I live is just a few hundred dollars below MSRP. The next closest Honda dealer is 50 miles away. The ones after that are another 50 miles away. So, the "fair price" would be fine if I get the things that are important with me.

When I showed up to finalize the deal when the new year's models were available. The weightlifter, badass sales manager was there waiting for me, and he was going to set me straight on how things are done, specifically take a car off the lot. I lasted less than one minute before heading for the door. 

Plan B was a Hyundai. Everything was fine until the SUV came in. "Your car's in, but it got away from me and was washed." I agreed to come down an look at it. It was scratched up by their minimum-wage wash monkeys. The Hyundai badass sales manager stepped in. "The car looks fine to me." There was a big scratch along the hood (wash monkey's metal watch band or buckle would be my guess). The sales manager went in, got a visibly dirty rag, and started dry scrubbing the hood to get the scratch out, making it far worse. "See, there. It's gone."

So, Frau Putzer's getting a G01 X3 when they come out. There's no spare tire hole in the current F25 X3's, and that's a deal breaker. A reasonable way of looking at this is that I'm paying an extra $20k to not have to deal with ***holes at the peasant brand dealerships. That's a big part of it. Another big part is that I'm rewarding the BMW dealership for 16 years of excellent service in both their sales and service departments. Also, I don't want to make 2000 mile family road trips in a CR-V or Tucson when my 535i is too old for them.

Honda of North America is going to get a letter, a picture of the upcoming X3 Frauwagen, a scan of the check I used to pay for it, and an explanation of why we bought BMW #4 instead of Honda #3.


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## MJBrown62 (Jun 15, 2016)

Autoputzer said:


> Most peasants are weak and stupid. So, the sales strategy for the selling the peasant cars is different.


I think this is an immense generalization. Based on personal experience selling at a Subaru/Hyundai store. I think the difference is not their intellect, it's their income. They are not going to spend a lot of time looking to save $250 or $20 a month like a smart, seasoned BMW forum participant who who blow $20 a week on Starbucks. They need a Hyundai; no one needs a BMW.



Autoputzer said:


> ... I told Frau Putzer to find and develop a rapport with an unaggressive salesman when she was there getting her car serviced : a rookie, a female, and/or a racial minority. (The population where I live is over 80% white.) She found the perfect guy: physically small, Black, and new in the car sales business


OK, I LOVE the awesome tales of the Putzers, but have to address the elephant in the room here. This strategy you have a of gender and race "profiling of salespeople is a little disconcerting to me. I'm OK with the rookie ... that person will get a lot of hand holding by the SM and will or should bend over backwards to help.

But female and/or Black. Awe, C'mon Man! That's just wrong ...


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

"Most peasants are weak and stupid"

Is this an example of how we really want to characterize people on this forum? *EDIT: I mean, do people on this forum really want to characterize their fellow humans in this manner?*

I've met unsophisticated people, uneducated people, people who fear authority and are vulnerable to high pressure -- these people are often taken advantage of.

But I've had good experiences at a range of dealerships, regardless of the selling philosophy in use at any particular store.

I think customers have a lot of potential influence on how the process unfolds. Just as Mr. Brown has learned to ask his customers how they want to proceed -- if the salesperson I'm working with doesn't think to ask such a question, that's fine. I have ways to gently move things toward how I want them to proceed and it usually works out nicely for everyone.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

1968BMW2800 said:


> "Most peasants are weak and stupid"
> 
> Is this an example of how we really want to characterize people on this forum? *EDIT: I mean, do people on this forum really want to characterize their fellow humans in this manner?*


You seem to have some personal philosophical agenda into which you see to place:
Buying a car
Buying anything
Moving through life
Speaking about all of the above on an Internet forum.

"Just be more courteous", and everything is better. Got it. If things aren't going well in ANY situation, just add more 'nice'. Double got it.

Now everyone else can have a nuanced conversation based on reality, not philosophical principals.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

ard said:


> Now everyone else can have a nuanced conversation based on reality, not philosophical principals.


Ah, reality. Complicated business that.

But, I started this thread, actually, not to philosophize, but to suggest that, in car sales negotiations, awareness of how customers are viewed by the other side, and what sort of customers received preferred treatment, might be informative.

There are some who feel forcefulness, standing for no BS, and freely expressing displeasure are good ways to go.

I, respectfully, propose an alternative view -- a view informed by both experience and information shared with me by people in positions to know these things. That's all.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

MJBrown62 said:


> BMW is training us to sell to Millennials, as they see this group as the biggest growth Demographic. So they emphasize all the things you stereo-typically think: Fast responses, multiple media, precise numbers, know your stuff.
> 
> But simply stated: this could describe any age group.
> 
> ...


That's a welcomed shift in dealer interactions. To simply put, most people(customers and sales alike) value their time these days, and the old school back and forth really is not cutting it anymore.

In a way, the direct-sale, one price approach by Tesla is the most streamlined buying experience available, and not many Tesla buyers are young buyers(yet). My take is that BMW(and others) is gradually moving towards that, as that's what customers want.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Ah, reality. Complicated business that.
> 
> But, I started this thread, actually, not to philosophize, but to suggest that, in car sales negotiations, awareness of how customers are viewed by the other side, and what sort of customers received preferred treatment, might be informative.
> 
> ...


My current thinking is that "Courteous is Power" can be elusive to achieve, while "*Relationship is Power*" is achievable over time.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

MJBrown62 said:


> I think this is an immense generalization. Based on personal experience selling at a Subaru/Hyundai store. I think the difference is not their intellect, it's their income. They are not going to spend a lot of time looking to save $250 or $20 a month like a smart, seasoned BMW forum participant who who blow $20 a week on Starbucks. They need a Hyundai; no one needs a BMW.


I was admittedly making an exaggeration and an oversimplification to make a point. But, what I said is the attitude of a lot of Chevy and Hyundai salesman and sales managers. I also said that I buy or attempt to buy Chevy's and Hyundai's. How I'm treated on a Chevy lot is day and night to how I'm treated on a BMW lot. Things were going good on the Hyundai lot until the car got washed and scratched up. The founder of the Chevy dealer I no longer deal with had a saying "You can make more money sheering sheep than you can slaughtering them." He considered his customers his sheep.

Before she got married, my cousin would take me with her car shopping, for my car knowledge and to protect her from the wolves. She wasn't used to dealing with confrontation. I have the equivalent of a Ph.D in that from my job. She first took her dad with her, but realized that he was just more wolf food. Her husband, a retired cop, can hold his own with any aggressive salesman, though.

Actually, the low income people seem to be the ones going tooth and nail over price the most. When I was an E-4 working for an E-6, he spent almost a year getting a Plymouth Horizon for $50 over invoice. He's hit the Plymouth lot the last day of the month for months. They finally got tired of seeing him and sold him the car cheap just to get rid of him.

Try $50/week at Starbucks. Frau Putzer's heading there now, as I type, in her twelve year old, hooptie Honda.



MJBrown62 said:


> OK, I LOVE the awesome tales of the Putzers, but have to address the elephant in the room here. This strategy you have a of gender and race "profiling of salespeople is a little disconcerting to me. I'm OK with the rookie ... that person will get a lot of hand holding by the SM and will or should bend over backwards to help.
> 
> But female and/or Black. Awe, C'mon Man! That's just wrong ...


I'm going to dig in on this one.

There are a lot of micro-discriminations in our society. They're not necessarily malicious or even intentional. But, they're still there. It's how the DNA of all animals is hardwired. My German Shepherd liked other German Shepherds, especially females, more than he liked other breeds. He went nuts when he saw his first female German Shepherd since being snatched up from his mom as a puppy.

People tend to congregate with and relate better to people who look like them and share more of life's experiences with them. That makes a difference in the workplace, especially in sales. For example, a lot of sales leads come from people the salesman knows from where he worships: church/synagogue/mosque/temple/henge. (I'm a Druid. So, I had to throw in the henge-thing.) Where I live, like most places, minorities have a lower average income than Whites. These these things add up to give the White guy an advantage. By seeking out a female or minority salesman, all other things being equal, I'm just doing my part to level the slightly tilted playing field, in addition to maybe making the process easier for me.

I've noticed that the racial distribution of car dealership's sales forces seem to roughly coincide with the racial distribution with the area.

The salesman who sold me my 535i retired.... just after dealing with me... but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.  If it makes you feel better, the salesman I hooked up with for the Frauwagen is a slightly fat, slightly unpolished ******* (I can relate!... Freebird!), sort of a minority in his own right in the BMW sales world. It started at an event at the dealership and we ended up talking. When he told me that he factory ordered his M235i and intercepted it before the wash monkeys got near it. I thought to myself "That's my guy! I've found my new BMW salesman." He replaced the woman salesman with severe acne, who moved on to something better. I've learned to give underdogs a break whenever I can. The only times ones physical attractiveness should matter in the workplace is for fashion models, strippers, and hookers. But, that's not how evolution has hardwired us.

The world treats older women a lot harsher than it treats older men. Through a referral from the BMW service manager (a 50-somethig formerly overweight female), my next Chevy beater (a City Express van) will be bought from a 50-something, overweight, female salesman at one of their three Chevy lots. This is a perfect example of people relating to those who look like they do, in this case the service manager and the salesman. I'm not... a female.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Ah, reality. Complicated business that.
> 
> But, I started this thread, actually, not to philosophize, but to suggest that, in car sales negotiations, awareness of how customers are viewed by the other side, and what sort of customers received preferred treatment, might be informative.
> 
> ...


A good measure of a thread is how many posts it gets. So, you should consider this one a success.

I saw the Courtesy is Power thing when I was on jury duty once in a DUI manslaughter case: "The Tragic and Untimely Death of Billy Bob"... a story of a Z28 vs. a Peterbilt. The Peterbilt won.

The assistant state attorney (ASA) was a slime ball. The defendant was guilty as all get out. But, because of the sleazy ASA, the judge declared a mistrial. I never saw anything in the newspaper about a follow-on trial. The judge was very polite when explaining why he was sending us home. I was amazed about him not chewing the slime ball ASA out in court. He deserved it. It seemed like the judge was trying to maintain some respectability of the judicial process in the eyes of the jurors he was sending home.

But, years later, the judge had enough with the ASA and the elected state attorney (SA). The judge stepped down from the bench and ran for SA, won, and was re-elected for a second term running against the scummy SA who wanted his old job back. The previous SA and ASA are in private practice now, chasing ambulances and representing criminals.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

namelessman said:


> In a way, the direct-sale, one price approach by Tesla is the most streamlined buying experience available, and not many Tesla buyers are young buyers(yet). My take is that BMW(and others) is gradually moving towards that, as that's what customers want.


Some on here may be too young to remember, but Saturn tried No Haggle Pricing. Didn't work out very well for them. There is a local auto group that has it. I think they get some of the folks with dealership phobia, but none of the experienced shoppers. I've tried dealing with them, and it was no fun. (I want some return on all the time I've invested learning invoice pricing, trunk money and leasing damn it!)



namelessman said:


> My current thinking is that "Courteous is Power" can be elusive to achieve, while "*Relationship is Power*" is achievable over time.


Yes. But relationships take time. (Mutual) courtesy is a great first step in forming that mutually-rewarding long-term relationship. Mutual being the operant word. Take a look at Michael's post where he gave us a timeline of his day: I bet he's a lot more willing to work out a great deal with the 2:00 guy who stopped by to talk M2's, than with the 1:00 or 4:30 appointments that stiffed him.

Off topic, but Herr Putzer's comments brought to mind a catchy old Jimmy Soul song : "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life ... get an ugly girl to marry you." (A reference to his Chevy salesperson, not to Frau Putzer, whom I've been told bears a striking resemblance to Faith Hill).

PS: Thanks Michael for giving us a glimpse into A Day in The Life of a BMW CA. I'm not sure it will sway the other guy, but I know I found it interesting.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

namelessman said:


> My current thinking is that "Courteous is Power" can be elusive to achieve, while "*Relationship is Power*" is achievable over time.


So, relationships are key, FOR SURE. And courtesy is one of many relationship building tools.

I focused on the power of Courtesy, but, as you point out, it really is about how courtesy plays out within the context of a relationship.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> When I was in college I ran a red light and got a ticket. It was in, of all places, Beverly Hills! I went to traffic court. The judge greets all of us and says, slowly and clearly, that it is very costly, time-consuming, and logistically difficult when someone pleads 'not guilty' for a minor traffic infraction. He explained that those choosing to plead 'not guilty' for minor infractions will be rescheduled to appear at a later date, in his court, when all witnesses would be present, including the officer, which meant the officer would be paid by the good citizens to be in court rather than out fighting crime, etc, etc. The judge says very clearly, "If you want to be heard, the bench will hear a plea of guilty with an explanation."
> 
> The clerk starts calling out names and, to my amazement, it's one 'not guilty' plea after another. I was about the 5th or 6th called. I step up and say, "Guilty, Your Honor, with an explanation." He looks at the clerk, and then the bailiff, and then me, and pounds his gavel and says, "Dismissed. Drive safely."
> 
> When the people in charge give you the inside scoop, don't miss the easy ones. When the General Manager of a high line dealership tells me his sales force hates nasty customers and they love the courteous ones, I get it. It's so easy.


funny how we have opposite experiences. i was in a similar situation. the judge went on about fairness, paying your fair share and accepting responsibility etc, when he asked me what i plead i said not guilty and i want a jury trial, which was the option my lawyer told me to say. the judge looked at me sort of angrily and said he was dismissing the charge. the reason? the trial would have been more expensive to the court then any possible fine. funny how all those fine words were immediately thrown overboard when i exercised my rights and the monetary pain was switched to him.KNOWLEDGE IS POWER


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> funny how we have opposite experiences. i was in a similar situation. the judge went on about fairness, paying your fair share and accepting responsibility etc, when he asked me what i plead i said not guilty and i want a jury trial, which was the option my lawyer told me to say. the judge looked at me sort of angrily and said he was dismissing the charge. the reason? the trial would have been more expensive to the court then any possible fine. funny how all those fine words were immediately thrown overboard when i exercised my rights and the monetary pain was switched to him.KNOWLEDGE IS POWER


Great story. I think your experience validates what I'm saying. I said, when the people in charge give you the inside scoop, don't miss the easy ones. Your wise attorney, who clearly understood the system, gave you advice which you prudently followed and it worked out well for you. Knowledge is, indeed power. And I bet you were courteous in court.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Great story. I think your experience validates what I'm saying. I said, when the people in charge give you the inside scoop, don't miss the easy ones. Your wise attorney, who clearly understood the system, gave you advice which you prudently followed and it worked out well for you. Knowledge is, indeed power. And I bet you were courteous in court.


i was, there was no reason not to be lol. I do agree with you being courteous is a wiser choice if it is avaliable. Some people just can't get out of their own way.....


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

anselansel said:


> i was, there was no reason not to be lol. I do agree with you being courteous is a wiser choice if it is avaliable. Some people just can't get out of their own way.....


So this brings us back to my favorite jerk at the shipyard. He came in swinging from the start-- totally unnecessary, very unpleasant, and completely counter-productive as far as achieving what he wanted. Couldn't get out of his own way.

We all 'enjoyed' watching him dig himself into a hole. The only painful part was knowing the yard man had to take the abuse. Had the shipyard owner been present, knowing him as I do, I would not have been surprised if he had said to this particular customer, "You know, I don't think we're gonna haul your boat. Here's the name of a couple of other yards that might be able to help you."

But the yard man was not in a position of authority so he couldn't tell the rude customer to be nice or leave -- the yard man had to take it. However, the customer will never know of the specials he's not gonna get offered and it's gonna take forever for the hauling crew to get the cradle ready to haul his boat -- might go on for a couple of hours. And when the customer starts squawking, the yard foreman will calmly explain that they are being extra careful because they want to take care of him and his boat. And take care of him they will.

Jerks trigger passive-aggressive responses. Even though the yard crews will feel the wrath of the customer's anger when they drag out the hauling of this customer's boat, the customer's expressed anger is a displacement of the yard crew's anger -- they will 'enjoy' the power of pissing the customer off.

So when a CA is caught between a cranky, demanding customer and a sales manager who is equally unpleasant and demanding (as they sometimes are -- you know, well schooled in management through yelling, belittling and threats), it sets up a situation where the CA needs his SM more than he needs the love of any particular customer, so the CA will remain professional and polite, but won't give anything extra to the customer he doesn't have to give.

As opposed to the salesperson on one of our Jag deals who, after it was all signed and we were waiting for the final detailing to be completed, took me into the back room and gave me key fobs and a Jaguar baseball cap and a t-shirt for my wife and three Jaguar reusable grocery bags and a Range Rover insulated coffee mug.... he said, "Nice customers like you don't come along very often." He got his 10's -- would have given him all 10's even without the extra swag.

The judge told all of us that if we wanted to be heard that day, plead guilty with an explanation. If not, he explained, we were coming back to HIS court (which he stressed) on ANOTHER day, and his comments made it clear, to those who bothered to listen, that those pleading not guilty had better be prepared to prove their case, with the officer as a wittiness for the people, in front of a judge who didn't like spending the people's money on trials over red light violations and such.

Knowledge is, indeed,power. Knowing how to act courteously is part of the knowledge, and a source of the power.


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## Boraxo (Sep 6, 2005)

Respect goes both ways. My local Mercedes dealer lost a sale a few months ago on a $70k+ SUV. He started off on the right foot as one of the few dealers to submit a reply email to my RFQ and offered a price that was several thousand below some of the other offers. And he had the exact option package that I wanted and the exact color that my wife wanted. We made an appointment for Friday afternoon, I went to the dealership, and what do you think happened? The sales guy shows me a phony invoice that is jacked up $700 over the NADA published invoice (possibly by including MACO fees) and then the manager works me over to "split the difference." And would you believe at that point I was still tempted to make the deal because it still beat the next best offer? But then the manager keeps me waiting an hour - for absolutely no reason and with no respect for my time - and when I finally walk into his office he tells me he is busy with another sales guy and I need to wait. Then the finance guy is too busy to handle the paperwork. So I walked out. They lost the sale because they did not display common courtesy of respecting customer and his time.

Called the next dealer on my bid list, he immediately agreed to match the original offer from the first dealer, and you better believe he did not keep me waiting after I relayed the first story. Also (unintentionally) did me a favor by rejecting my trade-in as I ended up selling my car on autotrader the following week for $1200 more than I was offered by the first dealer on the trade (and $1700 more than carmax offer).

Moral of the story: treat customer with respect, you will close the deal and get all 10s. Play stupid games that they teach in sales 101 (i.e. waste customer time so they are "invested" in the deal and have less time to walk) and you will get nada except a bad yelp review.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Boraxo said:


> Respect goes both ways. My local Mercedes dealer lost a sale a few months ago on a $70k+ SUV. He started off on the right foot as one of the few dealers to submit a reply email to my RFQ and offered a price that was several thousand below some of the other offers. And he had the exact option package that I wanted and the exact color that my wife wanted. We made an appointment for Friday afternoon, I went to the dealership, and what do you think happened? The sales guy shows me a phony invoice that is jacked up $700 over the NADA published invoice (possibly by including MACO fees) and then the manager works me over to "split the difference." And would you believe at that point I was still tempted to make the deal because it still beat the next best offer? But then the manager keeps me waiting an hour - for absolutely no reason and with no respect for my time - and when I finally walk into his office he tells me he is busy with another sales guy and I need to wait. Then the finance guy is too busy to handle the paperwork. So I walked out. They lost the sale because they did not display common courtesy of respecting customer and his time.
> 
> Called the next dealer on my bid list, he immediately agreed to match the original offer from the first dealer, and you better believe he did not keep me waiting after I relayed the first story. Also (unintentionally) did me a favor by rejecting my trade-in as I ended up selling my car on autotrader the following week for $1200 more than I was offered by the first dealer on the trade (and $1700 more than carmax offer).
> 
> Moral of the story: treat customer with respect, you will close the deal and get all 10s. Play stupid games that they teach in sales 101 (i.e. waste customer time so they are "invested" in the deal and have less time to walk) and you will get nada except a bad yelp review.


We've all heard horror stories such as yours and those of us who have been doing car deals for many decades all have had weird and unpleasant car dealer experiences. One continues to wonder how what happened to you could still go on at high line dealerships when so much is invested in customer satisfaction -- one wonders what MB North America would think about the way you were treated.

Fortunately you kept your eye on the prize and your hassle did finally pay off for you in that another dealer was able to meet your expectations for your deal, and, one assumes the second dealer treated you with the courtesy it is reasonable to expect.

The original dealer lost the sale, which, clearly, they weren't too excited about closing because they couldn't/didn't get it done. One always wonders what a dealer is thinking when they let a potential sale walk out the door.

I think leaving is the best strategy in such instances. Thank everyone for their time and effort, say your sorry and disappointed it didn't work out, and leave without fuss. My issue is customers who need to cuss someone out or vent in some other way.

I'm a big advocate of saying thank you and leaving, and moving on to a properly organized outfit that knows how to close a deal and keep a customer happy throughout the process. It ain't rocket science.


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## mikeriley (Mar 20, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> We've all heard horror stories such as yours and those of us who have been doing car deals for many decades all have had weird and unpleasant car dealer experiences. One continues to wonder how what happened to you could still go on at high line dealerships when so much is invested in customer satisfaction -- one wonders what MB North America would think about the way you were treated.
> 
> Fortunately you kept your eye on the prize and your hassle did finally pay off for you in that another dealer was able to meet your expectations for your deal, and, one assumes the second dealer treated you with the courtesy it is reasonable to expect.
> 
> ...


All this is true and the best way to go about it, do not let them waste your time, tell them you are leaving, do not let them try to convince you to stay. however, once you leave they will call you. i would give them one more chance but no way speak to the CA, id only explain the situation to the SA, or GM and then give them your bottom line and that bottom line includes your financial requirements as well as time requirements to make the deal happen.


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## N3mesis (May 28, 2017)

*Tl:dr. but disappointed*

I made it to page 4 or so, so apologies if this has been covered.

Courtesy isn't power. Courtesy comes from a state of power - it's another luxury that can be indulged in a manner similar to splurging for night vision, with a corresponding cost in time.

Case in point: my trip to my local BMW dealer. I made an appointment, specified what I wanted to see, what features I was interested in, etc. I arrived on time, driving a vehicle that clearly demonstrated my buying power and that I was a knowledgeable car guy. I dressed well.

In return I spent 15 minutes waiting, talking to the sales manager about the car I came in. Okay, these things happen. Did they do what I asked? No. Were they prepared at all? No. The salesperson talked with me for 10 minutes, then fobbed me off to another, truly useless sales person with whom I have talked before and clearly didn't remember me. "Because a customer came it to do paperwork."

I went on two test drives. The sales person knew nothing about the features of either car - no clue. He attempted to restrict my test drives to three roads that formed a triangle outside the dealership, then was upset that my route delayed his arrival back at the dealership to, you guessed it, deal with another customer.

The only valuable time I spent was talking with the younger "geniuses" that actually could demonstrate their product. All told, two hours of my life gone. I finally left when the salespeople flat out vanished. The sad thing is they've lost at least 5 sales from me over the years. When I move up in marque at that dealership, I expect treatment to get better. It doesn't.

Their competitor literally next door, however, got sales the first one didn't because they did things like put two cars tail to tail to compare the lines, wheel types, etc.

I started the response by claiming courtesy is a luxury. One dealership invested in it, one didn't, with commensurate rewards. To the first dealer, I'm an "unreasonably demanding" customer story they tell. To the second, I'm a customer. Guess which one is a BMW dealer?


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

N3mesis said:


> Courtesy isn't power. Courtesy comes from a state of power - it's another luxury that can be indulged in a manner similar to splurging for night vision, with a corresponding cost in time.
> 
> Case in point: my trip to my local BMW dealer. I made an appointment, specified what I wanted to see, what features I was interested in, etc. I arrived on time, driving a vehicle that clearly demonstrated my buying power and that I was a knowledgeable car guy. I dressed well.
> 
> ...


Usually when weird stuff starts to happen at a dealership, as in the situation you describe, it becomes evident quickly, as it did in your situation.

If one is there to buy a car and the preliminary arrangements have already been handled in advance by phone or email, then it may be worth putting up with a little inconvenience and nonsense if in the end the right deal on the right car results.

In your situation, it appears you had made an appointment to do some test driving and some learning about the product.

If I'm spending time at a dealer to look and test, I make that clear and, while I hope the person or persons who assist me are knowledgeable and competent, I really don't expect much, sad as that is.

But when I come in with the intention to do a deal and get a car, I expect everybody necessary to do that deal to be ready and attentive to my needs. A little waiting is always okay, especially when I've ground out a back-of-invoice deal -- I have no problem if the dealer needs to divide his/her between me and another potentially more profitable deal.

But if the dealership personnel blow me off, and I have made a confirmed appointment and have been courteous and clear in my communications regarding why I'm there and what I need, it's time to thank people for their time and leave.

In your case, after a few minutes of chatting with the SM, I would have glanced at my watch and politely, but firmly said something like, "Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I made an appointment for this time to drive cars which I was led to believe would be ready for me to see and drive. I need your help in getting this organized for me as I only allowed an hour and will need to be on my way shortly. Can you please get this going for me now?" And if there was any push back, I would politely thank the SM, tell him/her, calmly, that I was disappointed, and I would find another dealer. The power to leave and take one's business elsewhere is all the power a customer needs. And when a customer does it courteously, it's all the more powerful, in my experience.


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## N3mesis (May 28, 2017)

1968BMW2800 said:


> As I was once told by a brilliant psychoanalyst, "You'd better enjoy the journey getting there because you're never gonna get all the way there." It's an ongoing process -- always more distance to go.
> 
> One reason we drive nice cars is it helps us enjoy the journey


And to paraphrase engineers and physicists vs mathematicians, "Yeah, but I'll get close enough for practical purposes." 

For me, the journey by nature is transitory - from one state/place to another. Make the transition as fast as possible, hence my presence here...


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## N3mesis (May 28, 2017)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Usually when weird stuff starts to happen at a dealership, as in the situation you describe, it becomes evident quickly, as it did in your situation.
> 
> In your situation, it appears you had made an appointment to do some test driving and some learning about the product.
> 
> ...


I hopefully included enough of your reply to indicate I was listening to the whole thing - I figure we can scroll up if needs be. It's unfortunate that this is NOT a weird experience for this dealer. It happened in their Honda group twice, it happened in their BMW group twice prior to this event, etc. The one time it DIDN'T happen was the weird occurrence. The references above occurred over a period of approximately 12 years - which means it's ingrained in their culture.

Which means I'll be taking my BMW 4 additional miles away for service after I purchase it there.

In 28 hours from that meeting, I was ready to buy. Then I heard about the all digital dash and automatic trunk close (thanks folks), so I pushed out my order until August, pending incentive changes.

What I ended up doing in the above case was saying to the sales manager, "Please tell salesperson I have a meeting I have to get to" and walked out. I proceeded to call another sales person from another dealership who prepared everything for me as I had asked, after I made certain it wasn't an imposition for him. A 24 year old kid earned my business because they displayed the courtesy I'd expect from a BMW dealer. An hour with him was far more valuable to the dealership in the two hours I spent with 4 people.

Semi-full-disclosure: the problematic dealership is in a predominately affluent area. The non-problematic one 4 miles away is in a predominately "shopping" area with a wealth of strip malls and car dealerships. You'd expect the former to be more interested in developing client relationships and the latter to be transactional. However, the reverse definitely seems to be true. Also, I think the fact that the former handled 5 marques at that location alone, where the other handled BMW/Mini, definitely contributed to the situation.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

N3mesis said:


> I hopefully included enough of your reply to indicate I was listening to the whole thing - I figure we can scroll up if needs be. It's unfortunate that this is NOT a weird experience for this dealer. It happened in their Honda group twice, it happened in their BMW group twice prior to this event, etc. The one time it DIDN'T happen was the weird occurrence. The references above occurred over a period of approximately 12 years - which means it's ingrained in their culture.
> 
> Which means I'll be taking my BMW 4 additional miles away for service after I purchase it there.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of another part of a conversation I had with a high line GM. He said he doesn't even want to think about all of the missed sales due to 'stupid sh#@' his sales teams do or forget to do. In my family we have a saying: "Don't miss the easy ones." I can understand losing a sale because a dealer can't get his hands on the right product soon enough or can't come to reasonable terms with a demanding customer -- fair enough. But sometimes.... well, yours is a case in point. You gave them the opportunity to earn your business. They made a series of decisions resulting in their losing that opportunity. They may have their reasons, or they may just be missing the easy ones.

*Now its time for us to hear from some CA's who can tell us about the ones they let get away, either by mistake, or, maybe even on purpose*


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Gonna flog this old pony again.

TWO recent examples:

1. Needed an extension ladder. Stopped by the shipyard to see if I could rent one for a week. Approached the yard manager who knows me well. He said, "Let me see what I can do. Give me your cell number." An hour later he texts me and tells me the ladder is in the back of his truck and he will be happy to drop it off at my house during lunch if I can have someone meet him. I met him at my rear gate a little before noon and he told me to keep the ladder for as long as I needed it and to let him know when I was done so he could come pick it up. Okay, for all of you who accuse me of using 'gratuities' as bribery, after he offloaded the ladder and carried it into my yard, I slipped him 10 bucks and told him to get himself some lunch. He said, "You didn't need to do that," to which I replied, "I know. That's why I gave it to you. Have a nice lunch."

2. My wife and I were buying running shoes. As my wife was strolling through the store 'test walking' a pair of shoes, I said to the sales guy, truthfully, that I appreciated his personal attention, to which he replied, "I only wish more of our customers were as nice to deal with as you guys are." About 15 minutes later, he walked us to check out and told the cashier, "Give them the_ courtesy_ discount," which was 10% according to our sales receipt.

Yes, I felt the power. Think about how just being respectful, and patient, and grateful, and polite, and reasonable, and forthright might just work in your life, especially at the BMW Center when it's time to buy or lease that next car, _courteously_. I sure wouldn't mind an extra 10% courtesy discount on my next Bimmer


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

I should move to your neck of the woods, if you can buy a decent lunch there for $10. Happy meal?

And having him come to the "rear gate" was a nice detail. Is that the servants' entrance?


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

quackbury said:


> I should move to your neck of the woods, if you can buy a decent lunch there for $10. Happy meal?


LOL. His culinary preferences run toward the secret menu at In-N-Out Burger. There is a little-known item called the 4 x 4, which, as the name suggests, involves, apparently, four beef patties and an equal number of slices of cheese. 10 bucks covers the bill of fare, I believe.

And of course, here in sunny Southern California, we get all kinds of killer deals on Bimmers because BMW Centers are about as ubiquitous here as are In-and-Out's.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

quackbury said:


> And having him come to the "rear gate" was a nice detail. Is that the servants' entrance?


'Servant' is no longer a term those in the know use. As a particularly snooty woman once told my wife, "We don't encourage getting too friendly with the 'help'." True story. Had to be there. 

Our rear gate leads to a public alley, Very high class set up.


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## anselansel (May 5, 2016)

quackbury said:


> I should move to your neck of the woods, if you can buy a decent lunch there for $10. Happy meal?
> 
> And having him come to the "rear gate" was a nice detail. Is that the servants' entrance?


ahh, a member of the perpetually offended crowd huh?


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Ahh, another humorless millennial, huh?

Sent from my HTC 10 using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

quackbury said:


> Ahh, another humorless millennial, huh?
> 
> Sent from my HTC 10 using Bimmerfest mobile app


Yeah, well, you're new 540i Msport is still a very nice looking car. Very nice. Do you wash it yourself, or do you have the 'help' do it for you?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Yeah, well, you're new 540i Msport is still a very nice looking car. Very nice. Do you wash it yourself, or do you have the 'help' do it for you?


He just picks it up from the valet after work....


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