# Why I won't buy a used M3 [video]



## reevesna (Dec 23, 2004)

wow if u think getting into redline or hitting the revlimiter in a 7Grand rev range in a sports car is bad then i hope you're never in the market for a sports bike which redline between 12G's and 15G's depending on motor make and output...i personally ride/drive hard but would never consider running the motor out to its limit abuse...hearing a 600cc motorcycle bounce off the revlimiter at 16,000rpm is an experience in and of itself...but hey thats what they're made to do...and i have heard more than one story about factory's running entines into the red for more than 15minutes periodicly off the assembly line to make sure they're parts hold up...it all depends on how the motor was built to run...back in the 80's some racing motorcycles were built to run in the 22,000 rpm range...bmw makes a very sound mechanical product and i run my car into the red atleast once every drive...if it breaks it breaks but it was built to run so thats what i'm doing with it


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2005)

I hit the rev-limiter in my M3 almost every time I drive it. As long as the engine is warmed up and you have enough oil, why would this be a problem? Even if it were for an extended period?

I really don't get it. These cars were meant to be driven. I would much rather buy a car that was driven hard (under the right conditions - warmed up, enough oil, etc) and well-maintained than buy a car what was driven like a little old lady would.


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

shizat63 said:


> People asked why I didn't get a '01 or '02 M3 for the same price. This video speaks volumes.
> 
> I hope this guy doesn't wait for the 15K oil change interval
> 
> http://www.damajoo.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9


I don't know if the oil was warm, but if it was, there was no harm done. :dunno:

People who don't redline their cars during normal operating temperature are the ones who will end up with engine problems. That is why given a choice between a tracked sports car (but maintained properly) and a poseur driven sports car (never redlined, never WOT), I will always take the tracked car. What do you think is going to happen to the engine seals and gasket of a sports car that was babied all its life when a second owner puts it to good use (like tracking it)?

Right, leacky head gasket oil burning machine. 

Warm up the engine oil, BMW's are made to be rev'ed. :tsk:

BTW, I should know. My 325is did not have a leaky head gasket when I bought it.

It does now because the previous owners didn't drive it like a BMW. :thumbdwn:


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## JAWJr (May 4, 2004)

BlackChrome said:


> I'd like to add that redling (or high RPM) before the oil reach the normal working temp would be abuse.


I was going to say the same thing. As long as the oil is at operating temp, and there is the right amount of it, you shouldn't have a problem. I would also add that the oil should be changed more frequently than the "factory recommended" 15K intervals. I just had mine changed at 1900 miles after I took re-delivery to get all the break-in grit out, and the guys at my independant BMW shop praised me. They said they've seen the oil filter come out of a car that has run unchanged for 15K, and half the filter had already deteriorated. I plan to do mine every 5K.

Simply put, care for your car, and drive them the way they were designed to be driven. Our cars were meant to be driven at top speed to and from work every day on the autobahn. Now you couldn't say the same thing about American engines...

~Jon


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

shizat63 said:


> So for you redliners out there- aside from money shifting or prematurely wearing the clutch, how would you define 'abusing' ones car :dunno:


That's simple, IMO.

Abusing one's car consists primarily of not maintaining them properly, or not following some simple rules like not taking it easy on a cold engine.

Alex


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## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

shizat63 said:


> Just to clarify a few things... Yes, I was aware the video is of a 330 not a M3. My point was to illustrate how people abuse or beat their cars, then get rid of them. Apparently most of you guys don't see any engine abuse in keeping the tach at 6500+ for extended periods of time.


You know, not to flame or anything, but this thread really makes me wonder how you drive your car... :dunno: I am curious that if this doesn't seem normal to you, what's normal then? 


shizat63 said:


> So for you redliners out there- aside from money shifting or prematurely wearing the clutch, how would you define 'abusing' ones car :dunno:


I am used to redlining cars since that's how you drive Hondas: Integra GSRs, S2000s, Preludes with VTEC, etc. Like everyone else has already stated, as long as the engine is in operating temp and it has enough oil, it won't harm the engine. Abusing cars would be not changing oil when it's long over due, not doing basis maintaince, ignoring any warning lights on the dash, etc..


shizat63 said:


> And can someone confirm or reject the notion that the DME keeps count of the number of times the engine hits redline and the duration of time it spends there...?


IIRC, only the M3's computer does that.


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

Well... call this an awakening, epiphany, or whatever but it appears what I was told was wrong, and that revving the engine to redline is in fact well within the limits and does not constitute abuse. If the tach in my old 325Ci went into the red, it would make me nervous. And if I had a passenger with me, they would invariably make some comment on why that was bad yada yada. But once the new ride is sufficiently broken in, I'll start kissing the 6800 limit without feeling guilty 

Thanks guys :thumbup:


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## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

shizat63 said:


> Well... call this an awakening, epiphany, or whatever but it appears what I was told was wrong, and that revving the engine to redline is in fact well within the limits and does not constitute abuse. If the tach in my old 325Ci went into the red, it would make me nervous. And if I had a passenger with me, they would invariably make some comment on why that was bad yada yada. But once the new ride is sufficiently broken in, I'll start kissing the 6800 limit without feeling guilty
> 
> Thanks guys :thumbup:


Oh yeah, forgot you have a brand new car. Wait until it's broken in. 

I guess we are all bad influence, huh? :bigpimp:


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

BlackChrome said:


> Oh yeah, forgot you have a brand new car. Wait until it's broken in.
> 
> I guess we are all bad influence, huh? :bigpimp:


Would you like to fill me in on anything else that I may not know...? Is it ok to turn on the AC above 80 mph? What about downshifting without double clutching? And is it bad to go over 90 mph?


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## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

shizat63 said:


> Would you like to fill me in on anything else that I may not know...? Is it ok to turn on the AC above 80 mph? What about downshifting without double clutching? And is it bad to go over 90 mph?


Butthead has verfied that AC worked on his M3 at 167mph, and that AC worked on his Turbo at 185mph. :drive: :bigpimp:


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## dynosor (Jul 15, 2003)

*Redline and rev limiter are not the same thing*



BlackChrome said:


> Remember, redline starts at 6500RPM. I have Shark Injector which the redline starts at 7000RPM. Would you say I abuse my car? :dunno:


Engine speed is deemed safe at a sustained 6400 RPM once everything is at stable operating temperature. BMW set the limiter to 6500 RPM on the 330i to protect the hardware. The fact that the ZHP's limiter comes in at 6800 RPM suggests the 330i's 6500 RPM limit is conservative, but, just because you reset the limiter to 7000 RPM with software on your car does not make 6400 RPM any more or less stressful on the engine.

I don't think you are going to break your engine by hitting 7000 RPM providing it does not already have a step worn into the top of the cylinders from 200,000 miles of low speed running. Does being able to rev to 7000 RPM gain you anything other than not hitting the limiter at 6500 RPM? Probably not.

That said, I have no problem kissing the limiter on my car, but generally shift before hitting it when having fun. I would probably rev to no higher than 6500 RPM even if the limiter was set higher because the acceleration to noise ratio is too low and the acceleration is more satisfying by shifting to the next gear.

An ungoverned 330i should have a top speed of around 255 km/h or 158 MPH at 6,375 RPM in fifth gear (Road test SA CAR magazine Sep 03). The car in the video seemed to be doing pretty much exactly that. Either the driver was very well practiced at getting crisp shifts at 6400 RPM or the car had SMG with similar overall gearing to a conventional 5 speed manual.

The only way driving like this is abusive is if the car hit something while traveling flat out. I assume the guy does not have an autobahn in his back yard and that it took him more than 10 minutes to reach it from a cold start.


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## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

dynosor said:


> Does being able to rev to 7000 RPM gain you anything other than not hitting the limiter at 6500 RPM? Probably not.


Correct, there is no advantage to shift at 7000RPM. Heck, I don't do it often. In fact, if you look at the dyno chart, the HP starts to _decrease_ after 6000RPM.

But that extra 500RPM is useul when I autocross it. No need to shift to 3rd gear.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

dynosor said:


> Engine speed is deemed safe at a sustained 6400 RPM once everything is at stable operating temperature. BMW set the limiter to 6500 RPM on the 330i to protect the hardware. The fact that the ZHP's limiter comes in at 6800 RPM suggests the 330i's 6500 RPM limit is conservative, but, just because you reset the limiter to 7000 RPM with software on your car does not make 6400 RPM any more or less stressful on the engine.


More often than you'd think I have conversations with people which go along the lines of "well my redline used to be 7,250 rpm but with this new chip, I have a magical new redline of 8,000 rpm". (E30 M3 owners, usually.) What they meant was the redline was always 7,000 rpm, will always be 7,000 rpm for as long as they maintain stock internals, but the rev limiter is now an arbitrary 750 rpm higher - usually just high enough to make the probability of spinning a bearing very high, especially on track.


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## atlau (Jul 1, 2004)

I'm not worried about the car frankly. I'm more concerned that a guy is driving 260km/h on what seems to be public highway (OK, maybe autobahn) but holding a camera???????????????????


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

Alex Baumann said:


> @ norihaga
> 
> the rev limiter won't prevent over-revving due to a misshift.


Good to know for when I get my used M3!


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

reevesna said:


> wow if u think getting into redline or hitting the revlimiter in a 7Grand rev range in a sports car is bad then i hope you're never in the market for a sports bike which redline between 12G's and 15G's depending on motor make and output...i personally ride/drive hard but would never consider running the motor out to its limit abuse...hearing a 600cc motorcycle bounce off the revlimiter at 16,000rpm is an experience in and of itself...but hey thats what they're made to do...and i have heard more than one story about factory's running entines into the red for more than 15minutes periodicly off the assembly line to make sure they're parts hold up...it all depends on how the motor was built to run...back in the 80's some racing motorcycles were built to run in the 22,000 rpm range...bmw makes a very sound mechanical product and i run my car into the red atleast once every drive...if it breaks it breaks but it was built to run so thats what i'm doing with it


To take this logic to its ultimate conclusion, you would presumably characterize as accurate the statement that because a ZXR-400-RR-SP back in the early '90s had a 16k rpm redline, a Chevy v8 truck engine manufactured today should be able to make at least 14k? I don't think you'd get many takers for that proposition.

It may well be that holding a 330 above redline for more than a few seconds doesn't do it any harm, but unless you're a BMW engineer, how would you, or anyone who isn't, know that, without some potentially expensive testing? :dunno:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

norihaga said:


> Good to know for when I get my used M3!


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

There is absolutely no abuse on that video. 
That kind of driving is daily business to many regular Autobahn drivers. My car is practically the same setup (330 CI 5 speed SMG) And I drive it the very same way when traffic allows. Almost daily (when on summer tires, winter tires only allow 130mph). I usually drive my cars that way for 3-4 years covering 80000-120000 miles during that time and have never had any engine troubles (2 VW, 1 Audi, 2 BMWs)

a 5 speed 330 (SMG or not) is geared to run its 155mph top speed at about 6500rpm. And if the engine is in good health, and properly warmed it can do so for HOURS. That is what it is engineerd for. In development, BMW will subject its engines to full power testing at max revs for hour long tests.

As long as your not foolish enough to put so called "performance mods" on it (CAI, raising the rev limiter, pulleys or even forced induction), a BMW engine (or a Merc or Audi, or Ford Europe or even an Opel, any car BUILT for German autobahns) will be safe to operate at max speed for extended periods.

Only two things surprise me about that video:

1. Turning DSC off during straight line driving at higher speeds will not bring you performance gains, so I don´t see why he didn´t opt for the safety margin of leaving it on (for example during a tire blowout or sudden evading maneuvres)

2. The car accelerates mighty fast. I know that my 330 could not match that performance. So it´s either a very well going version or it might be modded.

But ín any case I´d rather buy a well maintaned car with high mileage that has allways been properly warmed and had regular oil changes even if I know it has been operated at or near the redline, than some soccermums low mileage neverbeendrivenproperly minter.

EDIT:

Found the car on the net. The owner swears it´s stock. But the first user was BMW themselves...

http://mein.auto-treff.com/S-REX.html


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

tierfreund said:


> There is absolutely no abuse on that video.
> I usually drive my cars that way for 3-4 years covering 80000-120000 miles during that time and have never had any engine troubles (2 VW, 1 Audi, 2 BMWs)
> 
> a 5 speed 330 (SMG or not) is geared to run its 155mph top speed at about 6500rpm. And if the engine is in good health, and properly warmed it can do so for HOURS. That is what it is engineerd for. In development, BMW will subject its engines to full power testing at max revs for hour long tests.
> ...


I guess this settles it - you can indeed drive your BMW like that and it won't blow up! 

So why do you say a CAI is a problem? Makes the engine run too lean? Just wondering...(full disclosure: I do not own a CAI and my 330 is completely stock, engine wise  )


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

I can almost swear that both my 330 and my wife's A4 wag their tails whenever they see me  . I give them an Italian tune-up every single time I drive them, after the engine has reached operating temp. (I LOVE the oil temp gauge in the Audi, no guesswork).

Next June I hope to do ED on an X3 for my wife - after I break it in, I intend to squeeze every last rpm and mph out of that sucker on the Autobahn. I want that car to be happy to see me in the future as well...

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## inline6 (Jun 1, 2003)

Well, the engineer in me believes the story that you have to redline the car periodically, otherwise you risk a distorted cylinder liner (square instead of conical wear shoulders) and poor performance or even ring breakage when you finally do floor it. This is especially true in a newish engine apparently, and it's one of the main reasons for varying the revs during break in. Ergo, I redline mine at least once during my commute. And did I mention that it sounds good? Just repeat after me, "Square shoulders," and I guarantee you won't forget to either vary the revs or to redline that baby


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## dynosor (Jul 15, 2003)

*Step vs Cone Bore Wear*

Glad to see someone who understands the step vs cone wear effect of not revving an engine appropriately, especially during break-in.

See http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=901373#poststop



inline6 said:


> Well, the engineer in me believes the story that you have to redline the car periodically, otherwise you risk a distorted cylinder liner (square instead of conical wear shoulders) and poor performance or even ring breakage when you finally do floor it. This is especially true in a newish engine apparently, and it's one of the main reasons for varying the revs during break in. Ergo, I redline mine at least once during my commute. And did I mention that it sounds good? Just repeat after me, "Square shoulders," and I guarantee you won't forget to either vary the revs or to redline that baby


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

norihaga said:


> I guess this settles it - you can indeed drive your BMW like that and it won't blow up!
> 
> So why do you say a CAI is a problem? Makes the engine run too lean? Just wondering...(full disclosure: I do not own a CAI and my 330 is completely stock, engine wise  )


Modern high performance engines have quite finely tuned engine management and fuel injection. Changing the air filtering can:

Allow bigger particles to hit the MAF which puts it under more strain and lowers it´s life expectancy and its accuracy. The MAF delivers vital information for the engine management to tune mixture and ignition timing. Anything other than proper mixture (to lean or to rich) and proper ignition timing can harm the engine especially under full load at high revs.

While chances of harming your engine permanently with a CAI are very slim, performance gains are equally slim. The biggest difference will be in intake noise. Many will react to the aural change in believing they are seeing a performance gain. Measurable performance gains from changing the stock intake are rare and usually only found in combination with other mods.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

adc said:


> I can almost swear that both my 330 and my wife's A4 wag their tails whenever they see me  . I give them an Italian tune-up every single time I drive them, after the engine has reached operating temp. (I LOVE the oil temp gauge in the Audi, no guesswork).
> 
> Next June I hope to do ED on an X3 for my wife - after I break it in, I intend to squeeze every last rpm and mph out of that sucker on the Autobahn. I want that car to be happy to see me in the future as well...
> 
> ...


I like the term "italian tune-up". That´s very fitting for the treatment.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

tierfreund said:


> I like the term "italian tune-up". That´s very fitting for the treatment.


I seem to remember this term was coined in the 60s or 70s and described revving up the engine to redline to clear up potentially fouled plugs and to get rid of carbon deposits.

I could be wrong about the source of it though... :dunno: but it indeed sounds very fitting.

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## Riuster (May 21, 2003)

Lets discuss abuse:

I was at a tire shop last week, and talked with a guy who also owned a M3 parked at the tire shop. His car had multiple scratches and dents, looked like crap. He tells me that the dealer gave him a new engine. I was wondering what happened, was it the rod bearing recall?

He said, no he abused the car and blew the engine so he can get a new one. Im thinking, how can one blow his engine and do that on purpose just to get a new engine?

Now thats abuse, remember that when you buy a used car, you will NEVER know what you get unless you know the owner him or herself.

I would NEVER buy a used car.


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

Riuster said:


> Now thats abuse, remember that when you buy a used car, you will NEVER know what you get unless you know the owner him or herself.
> 
> I would NEVER buy a used car.


That's right - and the pic in your sig shows revving past the yellow safe zone with a cold engine. Now THAT's abuse in my book! :rofl:

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## stylinexpat (May 23, 2004)

This guy enjoys driving his car and drives the BMW like it was meant to be driven on the Autobahn.. Car sounded happy and healthy , it pulled nice and strong for an automatic :eeps: That is how I like to drive my R32 here in Taiwan, although it pulls a bit harder and faster :thumbup: Germans know how to drive and leave the left lane open for others to use unlike some in America and Taiwan that do the speed limit in the fast lane and don't allow anyone to pass :thumbdwn: If you are going to do the speed limit do it on the right hand side of the road and let other people pass :thumbup:


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

adc said:


> That's right - and the pic in your sig shows revving past the yellow safe zone with a cold engine. Now THAT's abuse in my book! :rofl:
> 
> adc
> 03 330 ZHP


Riuster got


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## dsheli (Nov 29, 2004)

What is the name of the song they are playing in the background?
Thanks,
David


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

dsheli said:


> What is the name of the song they are playing in the background?
> Thanks,
> David


Honest Mouse, Float On


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## seh (Oct 6, 2004)

shizat63 said:


> Honest Mouse, Float On


I think you meant _Modest_ Mouse.
Honest.


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## gtvr6 (Apr 19, 2002)

Plaz said:


> I don't get it. I don't see any abuse there. The yellow lights are DSC (off) and brake pads, yes?
> 
> You wouldn't buy a used M3 because people drive them fast?  :dunno:


I thought it was the Dynamic Brake Control off light...not sure though.


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## gtvr6 (Apr 19, 2002)

Riuster said:


> Lets discuss abuse:
> 
> I was at a tire shop last week, and talked with a guy who also owned a M3 parked at the tire shop......
> 
> Was that at Parts & Polish in LI? :dunno:


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

seh said:


> I think you meant _Modest_ Mouse.
> Honest.


 :thumbup:


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## norihaga (Aug 25, 2004)

adc said:


> That's right - and the pic in your sig shows revving past the yellow safe zone with a cold engine. Now THAT's abuse in my book! :rofl:
> 
> adc
> 03 330 ZHP


Looks to me like the temp needle is in the middle...


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## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

norihaga said:


> Looks to me like the temp needle is in the middle...


M3 startup sequence, you have to wait until the engine warms up and the yellow boxes on the tach slowly go away.


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

shizat63 said:


> M3 startup sequence, you have to wait until the engine warms up and the yellow boxes on the tach slowly go away.


You have to wait for what?

Alex


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## adc (Apr 1, 2003)

BahnBaum said:


> You have to wait for what?
> 
> Alex


1) Water temp is not indicative of oil temp, except in general terms. Plus the water temp is buffered (non-linear). Never assume your car is warmed up by looking at the water temp gauge.
2) On the M3 and M5, the tach is lined-up with yellow lights from 4k rpm up. As the oil warms up, the yellow lights go dark one by one until the DMU deems it safe to go to redline.

:dunno: I thought that was common knowledge.

adc
03 330 ZHP


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

gtvr6 said:


> I thought it was the Dynamic Brake Control off light...not sure though.


No the yellow DSC AND Brake lights indicate that his DSC was completly turned off.

Since the Euro SMG on the 330 has a launch control programme that can be activated by turning DSC off completely, putting the SMG in sports mode and then just nailing the throttle, and since the fellow was trying to tape the best possible 0-260kph time, he was probably utilizing that feature.

Edit: I rechecked the video. He was using lauch control. When he hits the accelerator, the revs go up to 3500rpm and then the clutch is engaged. That is indicative of launch control. Pure wheelspin would take slighly longer, a regular SMG acceleration even with full throttle would have the clutch engaging at max 2000rpm


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

adc said:


> I still think it is 4krpm for the beginning of the warm-up indicator.
> 
> A car can have the water temp gauge in the middle and not have the correct oil temp at all.
> adc


right, but most of the warmup lights go out by the time the water temp gauge is in the middle. also, you can see the oil temp gauge and IT'S about up to temp too. By that time, all the lights are out.

it is all moot though because it's a PS anyway


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