# B10 Biodiesel Mandate?



## WannabeX5 (Aug 5, 2012)

Here in MN, it sounds like B10 Biodiesel is going to be mandated for all use in Summer 2014.

I'v been doing some reading that this is going to void diesel vehicle warranties due to the engines not being designed to run on it??

Supposedly Audi is the only company that currently backs their warranty with these new fuel mandates.

Can anyone elaborate on this subject anymore for me?

http://www.bringmethenews.com/2013/...irst-state-with-10-percent-biodiesel-mandate/


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## txagbmw (Apr 15, 2013)

What part of the engine would the company have to upgrade to run on 10%. For people with warranty's seems they would still have to 
warrant. If not would be an overnight shut off of customers. lawsuits ???. Companies have to know in advance that this was in the
pipeline. ??? Don't some older diesel run on straight biodiesel


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## ScottFM (Nov 24, 2013)

VW and Audi have stated that they will support their warranties for B10, that is true. As a previous VW owner I received the letter from them stating this. It also came with a warning that the owner would have to check oil levels more frequently and that oil changes may need to occur sooner. This is probably what BMW will have to do as well. I am not aware of any other changes that BMW wold have to make to their cars. The real issue is that this will add costs to maintenance and in the end really not result in fewer emissions. What it really does does is help the corn farmers get more government money. Nothing more than that. We have had this problem with bioDiesel in Illinois for a couple of years now. Sorry the disease is spreading.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

The problem mostly revolves around the use of post-injection to run the regeneration in the DPF. See:

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/moto...zda-cx5-diesel-oil-issues-20120821-24k6w.html and
http://www.bimmerfile.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/FIEM_Common_Position_Statement_2009.pdf and
http://biodieselmagazine.com/articles/2290/understanding-the-post-injection-problem/

More frequent oil testing and changes are indicated, at the very least.


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## txagbmw (Apr 15, 2013)

When you read some of those articles. Make a Diesel motor questionable. fuel higher, maintenance higher. Will it kill the 
incentive to have one. In some cases the mileage is not that much higher than gas model with lower purchase prices. 

Europe where diesel dominate, that could be a big hit. If they get as strict as the US.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

txagbmw said:


> ... In some cases the mileage is not that much higher than gas model with lower purchase prices.


I don't know what numbers you're looking at.
My 335d gets 5-6 mpg more than my son's 335i, sometimes 10 mpg more (highway)
The 328d gets 27-45 mpg, both measurements almost 10 mpg more than the 320i/328i. I've driven one and easily got 42 in mixed city/highway driving.

The price difference is $1300, which is recovered in 3-5 years, even though diesel costs more.


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## glangford (Dec 11, 2013)

floydarogers said:


> I don't know what numbers you're looking at.
> My 335d gets 5-6 mpg more than my son's 335i, sometimes 10 mpg more (highway)
> The 328d gets 27-45 mpg, both measurements almost 10 mpg more than the 320i/328i. I've driven one and easily got 42 in mixed city/highway driving.
> 
> The price difference is $1300, which is recovered in 3-5 years, even though diesel costs more.


The 3228d is rated at 32-45, and I easily beat both ends of the estimate in actual use. My current tank for around town driving is at 38.2 mpg (OBC). I've obtained 51.7 in highway driving. As far as fuel costs go the differential is not that great considering it is the diference from premium fuel, not regular.


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## TDIwyse (Sep 17, 2010)

WannabeX5 said:


> Here in MN, it sounds like B10 Biodiesel is going to be mandated for all use in Summer 2014.
> 
> I'v been doing some reading that this is going to void diesel vehicle warranties due to the engines not being designed to run on it??
> 
> ...


This might be helpful for you.

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/ar...ze-adds-to-growing-list-of-b20-ready-vehicles

_Nearly 80 percent of manufacturers selling diesel vehicles and equipment in the U.S. now warranty them for use with high-quality B20 biodiesel blends. The remainder, primarily the European light-duty diesel brands, are certified for use with 5 percent biodiesel blends (B5), and the National Biodiesel Board is working cooperatively with those manufacturers to encourage and enable their support for B20 in all vehicles sold in the U.S._


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

Somewhat off-topic question. I have a 5-gallon jug of diesel that's been setting under my screened in porch for about a year. I think I added at least a couple of ounces of PS Clear-Diesel Fuel & Tank Cleaner earlier this year. Do you think there would be any harm in using it up in my 335d. I was actually planning to use it in a diesel generator, but never bought one.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Happy335dOwner said:


> Somewhat off-topic question. I have a 5-gallon jug of diesel that's been setting under my screened in porch for about a year. I think I added at least a couple of ounces of PS Clear-Diesel Fuel & Tank Cleaner earlier this year. Do you think there would be any harm in using it up in my 335d. I was actually planning to use it in a diesel generator, but never bought one.


I used two gallons that was in similar condition in my 335d and had no problems. I keep 5 gallons around for my Kubota tractor, and use a conditioner/anti-gell in it.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

glangford said:


> ... As far as fuel costs go the differential is not that great considering it is the diference from premium fuel, not regular.


Even if you have much more expensive diesel than premium, the savings of 5 mpg is substantial. For instance, I drive 18K miles/year. Currently, diesel is $4.00/gal (a bit higher earlier in the year.) Although premium is going for around $3.50, if you run the numbers I saved around $800 in fuel costs this year alone. Only takes two years at that rate to pay for the diesel engine (this assumes 25mpg average - as my son's 335i gets, against my 31 mpg).


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

Price varies from location to location. At the Shell nearest my home in Maryland, Premium at the moment is $3.949 and diesel is $3.899. Diesel has been hovering at or below Premium for quite a while here. Other places I visit, whether in the DC Metro area or southeast USA or west coast are totally different.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

WannabeX5 said:


> Here in MN, it sounds like B10 Biodiesel is going to be mandated for all use in Summer 2014.
> 
> I'v been doing some reading that this is going to void diesel vehicle warranties due to the engines not being designed to run on it??
> 
> ...


Great question. Ask your local BMW dealership what the corporate position will be on warranty coverage. Pose the same question to BMW USA. Please share those responses with us. Good luck!


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

B10 is a godsend. I used to be able to get B5 in my area. Made my old VW CRD TDI run smoother, quieter, and with higher MPGs. Same with my X5.

If B10 does become the norm in your state, instead of D2, BMW would need to mandate smaller OCIs and the fuel filter would need to be changed earlier, instead of every 3rd oil change, due to the "crap" in the fuel.

The only issue with biodiesel that I see is quality (since it's synthetically made) and gelling problems where the 10% biodiesel might solidify much earlier than the D2 it's mixed into.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

In my experience (running b20 in Michigan year-round) you'd have no issues with b10 gelling. I doubt you'd need to decrease fuel filter change interval.
Not sure if oil changes would increase either. The letter VW sent to owners of diesels registered in IL allowed up to b20 and warned that they needed to monitor oil level and change oil earlier if needed.


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## Colo328dGirl (Dec 17, 2013)

As a "soon to be" owner of a 2014 328d xDrive, this tread is distrubing. Will B10 or B20 fuel void the BMW warrant or not? I plan to purchase the extended warranty and maintenance packages. I am now wondering if a diesel vehicle is a good purchase or should I go for the fuel version of the car. My sister who is retired from the EPA stated she doubts if there will be a nationally mandate for B10. She plans to call an EPA contact on Monday to get to the bottom for me.


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## glangford (Dec 11, 2013)

Let us know what the answer is from the EPA. It's not the EPA I worry about, but Congress. There was a lot of corn belt lobbying going on in the push for E15 gas. Hopefully given the recent increase in domestic oil production, with increased buying from Canada, and less reliance on middle eastern oil will alleviate the concern for more fuel bio content. Time and Congress will tell. 

The manual clearly states, B5, so I would assume they would invalidate a warranty claim associated with higher biodiesel content. I read in one of the linked articles that BMW is evaluating it, but hasn't commited. I do know they were adamant against E15 for the gassers.


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

glangford said:


> Let us know what the answer is from the EPA. It's not the EPA I worry about, but Congress. There was a lot of corn belt lobbying going on in the push for E15 gas. Hopefully given the recent increase in domestic oil production, with increased buying from Canada, and less reliance on middle eastern oil will alleviate the concern for more fuel bio content. Time and Congress will tell.
> 
> The manual clearly states, B5, so I would assume they would invalidate a warranty claim associated with higher biodiesel content. I read in one of the linked articles that BMW is evaluating it, but hasn't commited. I do know they were adamant against E15 for the gassers.


I wonder how the Corvette and Cadillac and Mustang engineers feel about the biofuels admixtures. Seems if they could use it as a wedge to hurt BMW et al they might be thinking about it.


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## luigi524td (Apr 4, 2005)

The impact on engine longevity - well, car sellers may adjust warranties but until they actually figure out what they will do to modify engine/fuel system components it'll just mean that (some) repairs might be covered, not that damage won't occur! 

Politicians and "greenies" in the USA promoting bio-fuels need to back off the use of FOOD crops (corn) to produce BioFuels ... Until then don't expect fuel prices to actually drop over the long term but DO expect grain and cattle prices to rise dramatically!


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Seems the corn lobby is determined to kill the auto diesel business in the US. Many folks are already on the fence and stories like this sure don't help. At this rate, the US will never approach the percentage of light duty diesel vehicles in use compared to those in use in Europe. In Europe, diesel is the cheapest fuel while in many areas of the US it is the most expensive. The only way to change this is to change the membership in Congress.


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## d geek (Nov 26, 2008)

Corn is used to make ethanol. In this country soy is used for most biodiesel. Germany favors the use of rapeseed.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

d geek said:


> Great question. Ask your local BMW dealership what the corporate position will be on warranty coverage. *Pose the same question to BMW USA*. Please share those responses with us. Good luck!


Best to pose the question to BMW NA (USA). IF they respond, you will at least have an official response. Unless the dealer has received an official response from BMW NA, anything they say is just their opinion.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

rmorin49 said:


> Seems the corn lobby is determined to kill the auto diesel business in the US. Many folks are already on the fence and stories like this sure don't help. At this rate, the US will never approach the percentage of light duty diesel vehicles in use compared to those in use in Europe. In Europe, diesel is the cheapest fuel while in many areas of the US it is the most expensive. *The only way to change this is to change the membership in Congress*.


More like ban lobbyists. Rotsa ruck with that endeavor, though.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

glangford said:


> Let us know what the answer is from the EPA. It's not the EPA I worry about, but Congress. *There was a lot of corn belt lobbying going on in the push for E15 gas*. Hopefully given the recent increase in domestic oil production, with increased buying from Canada, and less reliance on middle eastern oil will alleviate the concern for more fuel bio content. Time and Congress will tell.
> 
> The manual clearly states, B5, so I would assume they would invalidate a warranty claim associated with higher biodiesel content. I read in one of the linked articles that BMW is evaluating it, but hasn't commited. I do know they were adamant against E15 for the gassers.


We could be at 100% petroleum self-sufficiency and there would still be lobbying for higher ethanol content. Once you suckle on the government teat, you get accustomed to life that way. The corn lobby is proof positive of this.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Colo328dGirl said:


> As a "soon to be" owner of a 2014 328d xDrive, this tread is distrubing. Will B10 or B20 fuel void the BMW warrant or not? I plan to purchase the extended warranty and maintenance packages. I am now wondering if a diesel vehicle is a good purchase or should I go for the fuel version of the car. *My sister who is retired from the EPA stated she doubts if there will be a nationally mandate for B10*. She plans to call an EPA contact on Monday to get to the bottom for me.


It is state-by-state. Does CO have a requirement for B10+? Do any of the states you plan on visiting have a requirement for B10+? If so, you might consider not driving your d through those states. Power of the pocketbook/wallet and what-not.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

d geek said:


> In my experience (running b20 in Michigan year-round) you'd have no issues with b10 gelling. I doubt you'd need to decrease fuel filter change interval.
> *Not sure if oil changes would increase either*. The letter VW sent to owners of diesels registered in IL allowed up to b20 and warned that they needed to monitor oil level and change oil earlier if needed.


Best way to find out is to send sample of engine oil off for analysis. Start checking at the 7,500 mile point. If fuel contamination is present, then time to change. If no fuel contamination, then sample again at 10,000 miles. After 10K miles, you are probably going to see fuel contamination.


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