# HELP! Longtime BMW owner tempted by Audi S4



## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

I did the unthinkable today...I test-drove the S4. But first a little background...I'm on my 3rd BMW in 10 years - E36 coupe, and 2 E39's, plus my wife's 2 bimmers - 740i & X5. In short, I love BMWs and always have. I'm currently looking at trading my '00 528i (see sig. for details) for the 330i ZHP...if only I can get LeMans Blue or some special order blue color. I've never driven the M3 and would love the performance except that I want/need a 4-door. I've driven the E60 sport and, while it's nice, it's grown too big for me. Plus I don't love the styling. Enter the S4. 

For only $4-5k over a similarly equipped ZHP and with performance closer to the M3 ($10k diff.), the S4 is pretty appealing. I haven't really pushed it on a test drive, like I have the ZHP, so I don't know if the handling is really as good. But the power is definitely there, the ride is firm but comfortable, and the interior really is a notch better than the 3er. Not to mention I'd order Nogaro Blue in a heartbeat. A few negatives...the pedal position is definitely skewed to the right compared with a bimmer...it's awkward at first. Plus the exhaust if very throaty...much more so than a ZHP. Not bad, but definitely letting you know it's there. Oh yeah, it needs a 500lb diet (but the 4WD does have benefits). Then there's the $1700 gas guzzler tax for the 6spd. Still, Audi has served up strong competition.

So, help me from going to the dark side...suggestions welcome. :dunno: 

Thanks. Tom


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

How can I help when I'd just as easilly fall for an S4 Avant. I'll take mine in blue too.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2004)

LOL.

I drove an S4 last night as well. And I am smitten. The only thing stopping me is the price.

It really may just be the perfect car.

Gobs of power. Refines. Beautiful yet understated. Smooth shifter. Incredible seats. Four doors.

Perfect.

I am in the process of selling my E36 M3. And I have decided that I will get either an S4 or the A4 3.0 to replace it.

Due to BMW's extreme arrogance in both customer service and in their decidsions regarding product offerings (the current lineup hold absolutely ZERO appeal to this long-time BMW owner), I just can't see myself buying another BMW for many years. I have owned four in the past decade. But it'll probably be another decade before I own another. BMW has lost me.

Ironically, the salesman I worked with last night told me that he's getting a lot of former BMW diehards in their showroom. And everyone mentions one name- Bangle.


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## 16hr Day (Apr 17, 2004)

tsbrown said:


> I did the unthinkable today...I test-drove the S4. But first a little background...I'm on my 3rd BMW in 10 years - E36 coupe, and 2 E39's, plus my wife's 2 bimmers - 740i & X5. In short, I love BMWs and always have. I'm currently looking at trading my '00 528i (see sig. for details) for the 330i ZHP...if only I can get LeMans Blue or some special order blue color. I've never driven the M3 and would love the performance except that I want/need a 4-door. I've driven the E60 sport and, while it's nice, it's grown too big for me. Plus I don't love the styling. Enter the S4.
> 
> For only $4-5k over a similarly equipped ZHP and with performance closer to the M3 ($10k diff.), the S4 is pretty appealing. I haven't really pushed it on a test drive, like I have the ZHP, so I don't know if the handling is really as good. But the power is definitely there, the ride is firm but comfortable, and the interior really is a notch better than the 3er. Not to mention I'd order Nogaro Blue in a heartbeat. A few negatives...the pedal position is definitely skewed to the right compared with a bimmer...it's awkward at first. Plus the exhaust if very throaty...much more so than a ZHP. Not bad, but definitely letting you know it's there. Oh yeah, it needs a 500lb diet (but the 4WD does have benefits). Then there's the $1700 gas guzzler tax for the 6spd. Still, Audi has served up strong competition.
> 
> ...


I went through the same problem. Although the price was close. 51K for the S4 and 54K for my M3. I drove them both on the same afternoon and I was sold on the m3. Why do you need a 4 door? I have 2 kids and the coupe is been easy to deal with. I found the S4's gear box not as connected as the BMW. If you must have the 4 doors you might also try out a C55. Good luck


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## Lori (Sep 21, 2002)

I saw a new black S4 today. It's a very pretty car and it sounds great.


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## 16hr Day (Apr 17, 2004)

Lori said:


> I saw a new black S4 today. It's a very pretty car and it sounds great.


it looks too much like an A4. There is a guy I see driving around with a liscense plate that reads NOTANS4. Makes me laugh, but there is no mistaking a M3 for a 325. :thumbup:


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2004)

16hr Day said:


> it looks too much like an A4. There is a guy I see driving around with a liscense plate that reads NOTANS4. Makes me laugh, but there is no mistaking a M3 for a 325. :thumbup:


 Personally, I view that as a good thing about the S4. Less attention is definitely better.


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## Lori (Sep 21, 2002)

Sometimes I wish my car looked a little more like a 325, then I spend a day detailing it just so I can appreciate it's beautiful lines. The M3 is a work of art. Let the gawkers gawk. Can you blame them?


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

tsbrown said:


> I did the unthinkable today...I test-drove the S4. But first a little background...I'm on my 3rd BMW in 10 years - E36 coupe, and 2 E39's, plus my wife's 2 bimmers - 740i & X5. In short, I love BMWs and always have. I'm currently looking at trading my '00 528i (see sig. for details) for the 330i ZHP...if only I can get LeMans Blue or some special order blue color. I've never driven the M3 and would love the performance except that I want/need a 4-door. I've driven the E60 sport and, while it's nice, it's grown too big for me. Plus I don't love the styling. Enter the S4.
> 
> For only $4-5k over a similarly equipped ZHP and with performance closer to the M3 ($10k diff.), the S4 is pretty appealing. I haven't really pushed it on a test drive, like I have the ZHP, so I don't know if the handling is really as good. But the power is definitely there, the ride is firm but comfortable, and the interior really is a notch better than the 3er. Not to mention I'd order Nogaro Blue in a heartbeat. A few negatives...the pedal position is definitely skewed to the right compared with a bimmer...it's awkward at first. Plus the exhaust if very throaty...much more so than a ZHP. Not bad, but definitely letting you know it's there. Oh yeah, it needs a 500lb diet (but the 4WD does have benefits). Then there's the $1700 gas guzzler tax for the 6spd. Still, Audi has served up strong competition.
> 
> ...


Two words: VW reliability. They build some of the most Korean-like non Korean cars in the world. I wouldn't touch an S4 for 20k, let alone 40k.

VW = horrible engineering.


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## Soon to be ZHP (May 15, 2004)

I have friends that have the previous body S-4, both are looking to upgrade. After speaking with several dealers and Audi techs, the same reliabilty questions arrive. I hear a special tech goes from dealer to dealer troubleshooting new issues with the new S-4 sedans and wagons and that over cramped V-8. I've also heard several complaints about the car that Audi can't diagnose. I think in two years this car will be very soft on the resale market. But I guess you can buy new and take advantage of the warranty, then sell it before it's up. Or lease then give it back. You can see how strong M-3's have been since 2001. I don't think Audi will have the same results with this car.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2004)

Does anyone else find it ironic to be accusing Audi of poor reliability in light of the issues (and MANY recalls) that the E46 M3 has had? We're talking MAJOR problems. And the non-M E46s have been loaded with problems as well. Engine fires, bad cooling fans, bad thermostats, bad steering racks.

Then again, as this is a BMW board, we should expect some blind, ignorant BMW cheerleading.


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

This is going to sound stupid, but if the S4 got 5 more mpg and or had better performance then the WRX STi, I would probably be driving one today. The WRX STi has the same if not better performance then the S4 and is 20K less. Of course the STi can't compare to the fit and finish of the S4, but still 20K more should buy some more performance and efficency then simply a prettier face. I don't usually like to buy used cars, but the S4 is probably one to consider used. Let someone else pay the GG tax and depreciation on that one and wait in line at the dealer for engine and transmission replacements while they try to find a tech who's been trained to work on that car. It's not that I don't like the S4, I do. I just think that it's overpriced and way too inefficent. The Z06's engine gets way better gas mileage then the S4, of course the Z06 is lighter and RWD but it's is also considerably larger and more powerfull then the S4's powerplant so for me that balances thinks out.


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## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

16hr Day said:


> I went through the same problem. Although the price was close. 51K for the S4 and 54K for my M3. I drove them both on the same afternoon and I was sold on the m3. Why do you need a 4 door? I have 2 kids and the coupe is been easy to deal with. I found the S4's gear box not as connected as the BMW. If you must have the 4 doors you might also try out a C55. Good luck


I need the 4 doors for my kids, who occasionally ride in my car (with car seats). Also, I just like the idea of a practical car (4doors) with good performance. Only German cars come to mind for that and I've always felt BMW had the best all-round cars. No thanks on the MB though...I do think it's a beautiful car but with too many reported quality issues. If the M3 was available in 4doors, it would be no contest.


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## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> Two words: VW reliability. They build some of the most Korean-like non Korean cars in the world. I wouldn't touch an S4 for 20k, let alone 40k.
> 
> VW = horrible engineering.


I owned 3 VWs before my '93 E36 318is...'78 Rabbit, '86 GTI and '90 Jetta. None had the quality record of my BMWs, but I didn't think they were that bad. On the other hand, I have had so few problems with my 3 bimmers, I'd be disappointed with anything less trouble-free.


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## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

TD said:


> LOL.
> Due to BMW's extreme arrogance in both customer service and in their decidsions regarding product offerings (the current lineup hold absolutely ZERO appeal to this long-time BMW owner), I just can't see myself buying another BMW for many years. I have owned four in the past decade. But it'll probably be another decade before I own another. BMW has lost me.


Only the ZHP has any appeal to me in the current line-up...well, and the M3 if I didn't want 4 doors. So I only have about 6 months according to the CA to get the ZHP. Then I'm outta luck for several years.



TD said:


> Ironically, the salesman I worked with last night told me that he's getting a lot of former BMW diehards in their showroom. And everyone mentions one name- Bangle.


The Audi salesman said he and his counterparts love the new styling of the 5 series because it's just sending so many customers their way.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2004)

tsbrown said:


> Only the ZHP has any appeal to me in the current line-up...well, and the M3 if I didn't want 4 doors. So I only have about 6 months according to the CA to get the ZHP. Then I'm outta luck for several years.
> 
> The Audi salesman said he and his counterparts love the new styling of the 5 series because it's just sending so many customers their way.


 Funny, the conversation came up after I mentioned something about the new 5.

Although the Audi salesman I worked with was also a bit fearful of the upcoming mid-year facelift.


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## DrivingMaryland (Jun 16, 2004)

I think if I remember correctly the price difference is more than a few grand. I belive the S4 starts at 48 or so, thats without options. I payed 43 for my fully loaded zhp coupe. I might be wrong though.


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Two words: VW reliability. They build some of the most Korean-like non Korean cars in the world. I wouldn't touch an S4 for 20k, let alone 40k.
> 
> VW = horrible engineering.


:stupid:

I have owned 2 recent VW's. Under the hood and around the suspension are a lot of parts stamped Audi. I, too, looked at the S4. Beautiful car. Better interior. But the reliability issue I cannot get past. Because of the connection to VW, I will not do it.

BTW, this is not blind cheerleading...just personal experience from having owned both.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2004)

ChosenGSR said:


> I think if I remember correctly the price difference is more than a few grand. I belive the S4 starts at 48 or so, thats without options. I payed 43 for my fully loaded zhp coupe. I might be wrong though.


 Pretty much every Audi S4 ordered by dealers is equipped to sticker at or over $52K.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> Does anyone else find it ironic to be accusing Audi of poor reliability in light of the issues (and MANY recalls) that the E46 M3 has had? We're talking MAJOR problems. And the non-M E46s have been loaded with problems as well. Engine fires, bad cooling fans, bad thermostats, bad steering racks.
> 
> Then again, as this is a BMW board, we should expect some blind, ignorant BMW cheerleading.


 I still want to see you buy a CTS-V.


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## IndyMike (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> Does anyone else find it ironic to be accusing Audi of poor reliability in light of the issues (and MANY recalls) that the E46 M3 has had? We're talking MAJOR problems. And the non-M E46s have been loaded with problems as well. Engine fires, bad cooling fans, bad thermostats, bad steering racks.


 Well, BMW addressed the M3 engine issues by offering a 6 year 100k mile warranty. They address the dorked-up steering rack issue by offering a retrofit. What has Audi done comparably to their customers to attone for their mistakes (more a question than a statement or conviction because I don't really know)?



TD said:


> Then again, as this is a BMW board, we should expect some blind, ignorant BMW cheerleading.


 Generally, yes, you are going to find this type of behavior manifested on a board. But in the case of the posters that provided their honest opinions in this thread I don't believe that you can make this statement really stick, at least not based on their present comments.

Don't get me wrong. I am one of the biggest detractors of AG in regards to current styling, engineering direction and overall service (or lack thereof). Outside of a couple of variants within the drier reihe I wouldn't take any of their current model offerings if you flat out gave them to me. But head to head with Audi I'll take the comparable E-46 offering every time, UNLESS the overriding issue in your equation is all weather/all season maneuverability, then the scales are tipped IMO more favorably towards Audi.

If you want to call that "blind ignorance" then so be it. But I think the E-46 will be the last great BMW that exudes the hallowed marque axiom of 'perfect blend'. However, I'm pretty confident that BMW will no doubt find a way to dork up the next gen E-90 royally, somehow or way, and thus should this same discussion come up a year from now the Audi would probably be the no-brainer choice, for me at least.

But getting back to the posters question at hand; if the issue boils down to the ZHP vs S4 because of the 4 door requirement, then I'm afraid I can't really offer a comparison as I've never driven the S4. I had been comtemplating taking one for a test drive soon, so maybe I can offer something of more substance in the near future.

I do admit to being seduced by it's (S4) beautiful lines, and it's class leading interior design and ergonomics, but it has to step up in more areas than that to equal or exceed the perfect blend that I find in the 330i with Perf. Pkg. The extra 100+ ponies in the S4 might be cool, but really, where is that advantage going to come in to play on a regular basis? The 235hp in my sedan are sufficient for me in my daily driving activities, and the overall handling and connectivity is intoxicating during spirited driving excursions where the road bends and surpentines. And the fuel efficiency of 25 - 27mpg during combined driving events doesn't reek, especially compared to the 16 - 20 the S4 will return. I've often said that the 330i with Perf. Pkg is what the the original 330i should have been right out of box when introduced in June '00. Many of the enthusiasts that left the marque (or reverted to prior generations) because of disillusionment with that model would probably still be in the fold today if it had been.

In conclusion, what would I recommend you do? Well, mostly to take what you read here with a grain of salt, and base the decision strictly on your real world needs and comparison of how the two match up to one another under those criteria. IMO you can't really go wrong with either choice.

Good luck and let us know what you decided.


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## 16hr Day (Apr 17, 2004)

tsbrown said:


> I need the 4 doors for my kids, who occasionally ride in my car (with car seats). Also, I just like the idea of a practical car (4doors) with good performance. Only German cars come to mind for that and I've always felt BMW had the best all-round cars. No thanks on the MB though...I do think it's a beautiful car but with too many reported quality issues. If the M3 was available in 4doors, it would be no contest.


I have 2 kids with carseats too. I will tell you that unlike my e-class, the rear of the M3 has no widow switches to play with. I say screw the kids, buy the M!!! :thumbup:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> Does anyone else find it ironic to be accusing Audi of poor reliability in light of the issues (and MANY recalls) that the E46 M3 has had? We're talking MAJOR problems. And the non-M E46s have been loaded with problems as well. Engine fires, bad cooling fans, bad thermostats, bad steering racks.
> 
> Then again, as this is a BMW board, we should expect some blind, ignorant BMW cheerleading.


I can only assume that you're aware of the engine, transmission, and clutch problems the B6 S4's owners have experienced too, right? We're talking MAJOR problems.

you might wanna check out audiworld


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

The truth is reliability IS an issue with VW products, unfortunately.

Audi's are pretty cars and good performers, but they're also heavy and inefficient for their class.

That and poor reliability would keep me away from one.

Ed


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## AndDown (Jun 17, 2003)

I take it you've read this thread about the interior problems:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65675&highlight=audi


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

TD said:


> Does anyone else find it ironic to be accusing Audi of poor reliability in light of the issues (and MANY recalls) that the E46 M3 has had? We're talking MAJOR problems. And the non-M E46s have been loaded with problems as well. Engine fires, bad cooling fans, bad thermostats, bad steering racks.
> 
> Then again, as this is a BMW board, we should expect some blind, ignorant BMW cheerleading.


I never said BMWs were reliable. But the stats bear out that VW/Audi make some of the most unreliable cars around. Even worse than BMW.

VW/Audi quality has consistently sat on the wrong side of the average reliability scores. The newer VW/Audi products are quite prone to engine, build quality and electrical problems. Issues VW will not address.

In two years of VW ownership I visited my dealer over 8 times for warranty related repairs.

1 year with a bmw and I've done one trip for a defective emergency brake. another trip for a bad moonroof, poor performing engine is in order.

Neither company impresses me with their engineering, quality control and build quality. Again, the stats show this too. BMW and Audi aren't in the same league as Lexus. They should be but they aren't. Eventually it's this unwillingness to build quality cars that will be their undoing in the face of stronger and stronger comp from Japan.


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## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

ChosenGSR said:


> I think if I remember correctly the price difference is more than a few grand. I belive the S4 starts at 48 or so, thats without options. I payed 43 for my fully loaded zhp coupe. I might be wrong though.


Using build-your-own on both sites, the S4 I would get stickers out at just over $51k including the gas guzzler, closer to $52k even with destination. The ZHP similarly equipped would be just over $46k with destination. So maybe it's more like a $6k difference.

I also know I could get the ZHP for "invoice plus" rather than "MSRP minus" that I'm assuming on the S4. So maybe the difference grows due to that.


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## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

atyclb said:


> I can only assume that you're aware of the engine, transmission, and clutch problems the B6 S4's owners have experienced too, right? We're talking MAJOR problems.
> 
> you might wanna check out audiworld


I'm not aware of specific Audi issues, but BMW isn't perfect either. I'm actually leaning strongly toward the ZHP, just felt like I owed it to myself to check out the S4. With the ZHP, I know what I'm getting - a more agile/sporty/aggressive version of what I already have, mature in its lifecycle so many of the major issues should be worked out. That little peace of mind is worth something. With the S4, there are more unknowns, especially since I haven't properly evaluated its handling...a downpour started as I left on the test drive. Good to show off the 4WD, though.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

1. Price difference. Let's talk about the REAL price difference here. If you take into account the normal deals (I'm not even going to talk about ED program offered by BMW) you can have on both ZHP and S4 plus GG tax plus difference in local taxes based on value, you are looking at more less $10K (more like over $10K). That's a chunk of money. Having said that, I got my 330i ZHP with moonroof and xenons doing ED for less than $37K plus tax/registration and cost of your ED vacation (which could be as little as $700 ticket to Europe if you choose to.) So, vacation cost aside, assuming that I would get S4 for $50K plus CA tax/license of around $4500 I am looking at around $55000 car. That assumes I can get a good discound on the price to begin with. Now my ZHP - $37K plus CA tax/License of around $3500 and we are looking at $40500 car. That's closer to $15K difference!!! Assuming that you have a fun two week vacation in Europe - you're difference shrinks to $10K. 
Audi will be a good value, when it's used. Just look at the B5 S4 values - dirt cheap. Wait 2 years and pick one at the price of a new Passat. 

2. Reliability. I'm sorry but every single person with VW/Audi I talk to has tons of problems and most of them stem from bad design and have to do with major car components. Engine, transmission etc. I'm on my 3rd BMW with no issues at all which I know IS unusual and I am probably bound to have something but still. Aslo most of BMW problems are minor compared and major ones do have a fix introduced even if sometimes a little late. I just think they are better engineered cars. Experiences will vary of course.

3. Fuel efficiency. This is not Europe but gas prices are fairly high and I just can't justify a car that gets low to mid teens. This seems like an average of what people are getting, check audiworld. The S4 I test driven was 8.5 btw... I just can't get over that. Even with fairly hard street driving I am staying above 20 both of my 330i s.

4. Ergonomics. Audi's interior is simply put stunning. It hurts the eyes - that's how beautiful the new S4's interior is. But it is not as ergonomically thought through as E46. Central console is getting in the way. This is really annoying. Pedals seem to be too forward and you can't find a good seat position to counter that. There is a huge blind spot etc etc.

5. Driving characteristics. You may want to search under my name as I was considering S4 when I first came on this board and test driven it extensively. In summary, it is a very nice car. It is powerful, it handles well and it hides its weight very well. It has a nicely tuned suspension which is a good compromise between performance and comfort. It is a quantum leap over B5 S4. A huge improvement. At the same time, it IS heavy. The steering is light and unpredictable. It is not as composed in hard directional changes as E46. Or rather, it behaves differently. E46s are very neutral cars and will do almost anything before protesting. More than you would ever need on a street. S4 because of front weight and AWD has its own characteristics. Don't believe me? Take it on a longer drive and make a very sharp right hand corner at speed. Or do a series of left and right aggresively. It's just very different and maybe if I was not used to BMW before, I would not notice nor would I mind. But I do. V8 is great in this car but it is not SO powerful feeling, probably because of the weight. Yes it is fast. Yes it is faster than 330i ZHP no doubt. It is just not enough to make me chose it over ZHP.

In summary, if S4 would cost the same as ZHP - it would make it very hard to choose between the two. I might even overlook the MPG and reliability issues. It would be a very hard choice indeed and I'm not sure what I would pick. But that is hardly the case.
I really wanted something different since we already had a 330i but I simply could not find anything in that price range to match it OVERALL. Now, if you were looking for a wagon in the S4 Avant price range, that would an easy decision...


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## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

Well tsbrown - I don't have a B6 - but let me tell you my B5 Avant is just pure joy...and I wouldn't be at all concerned about the handling - the S4 (well mine) drives like its on rails - its precise and holds the road extremely well at nearly any speed. I've done some pretty unbelievable high speed cornering in the thing - and the power is just awesome (and that V8 rumble in the new one is just so sweet)...plus there are certainly many benefits of the AWD system - in any weather - but wet & snow it really shines - there is (basically) nothing that can keep with me in adverse cnditions - and that is very cool.

As for realiability - I've certainly had some issues - typical niggling stuff...though like BMW there is full coverage up until 50K....I just took mine in at 49850! and had pretty much my entire suspension replaced...have had brake pads done and other issues like moonroof switch occasionally balking, door squeaks, leaks in power steering fluid, speaker noise, drivers seat wiggle...etc...all replaced for free...but now I am just out of warrenty (however my car feels like brand new! lol)...so we will just have to see how it holds up. Still for a performance car such as it is - I expect to have to pay a little to maintian it. For me - the pue joy of the car makes it worth it. I can say I am extremely satisfied with the vehical - very...

Of course I am sold on the ZHP as well - and will be picking one up next week....overall though I think the S4 is a better bet all around - more powerful, more capable (AWD), more unique/distinctive. It is a heavier car - perhpaps a bit less tossable - but not really by much....gas mileage won't be great...but it is better appointed IMO - AUDI has super interiors....

Both are exceptional cars...depends on your needs/wants - but I certainly would not at all shy away from the S4 if you have the money to spend.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

Oh, I just looked at what you're driving now. If you are going to get S4 as a replacement for your E39, S4 WILL be more fun. I've never driven E39 M5 so I can't comment here but comparing to E39 528, 530 or 540i which I've driven - I would pick S4. E39s felt both bigger, softer and less tossable than the new S4. Thay are beautiful looking cars though...


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## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

Wallenrod said:


> 1. Price difference. Let's talk about the REAL price difference here. If you take into account the normal deals (I'm not even going to talk about ED program offered by BMW) you can have on both ZHP and S4 plus GG tax plus difference in local taxes based on value, you are looking at more less $10K (more like over $10K). That's a chunk of money. Having said that, I got my 330i ZHP with moonroof and xenons doing ED for less than $37K plus tax/registration and cost of your ED vacation (which could be as little as $700 ticket to Europe if you choose to.) So, vacation cost aside, assuming that I would get S4 for $50K plus CA tax/license of around $4500 I am looking at around $55000 car. That assumes I can get a good discound on the price to begin with. Now my ZHP - $37K plus CA tax/License of around $3500 and we are looking at $40500 car. That's closer to $15K difference!!! Assuming that you have a fun two week vacation in Europe - you're difference shrinks to $10K.
> Audi will be a good value, when it's used. Just look at the B5 S4 values - dirt cheap. Wait 2 years and pick one at the price of a new Passat.
> 
> 2. Reliability. I'm sorry but every single person with VW/Audi I talk to has tons of problems and most of them stem from bad design and have to do with major car components. Engine, transmission etc. I'm on my 3rd BMW with no issues at all which I know IS unusual and I am probably bound to have something but still. Aslo most of BMW problems are minor compared and major ones do have a fix introduced even if sometimes a little late. I just think they are better engineered cars. Experiences will vary of course.
> ...


Price: I'd do ED on the ZHP if I didn't have so much going on at work between now and December. But isn't the S4 also available thru ED with some corresponding savings?

Reliability: Agreed, there are risks here...see my earlier post on the reliability issues.

Fuel efficiency: Talked to my friend today in KC with an A6-4.2...he says he gets 20mpg on the highway. I get upper 20's in the 528i. That would take some getting used to.

Ergonomics: I think the S4 interior rivals my E39. It may be even better. The pedals are too far right...just awkward after 10years in a BMW.

Driving characteristics: I believe the handling will be the difference here...the decision maker for me more than the power/low-end torque once I get a 2nd test drive to really push it. The ZHP is so composed in spirited driving it's hard to think of any car I've ever driven that handles better...even a new E36 M3 4door I drove in '98. The S4 IS a heavy car...about 500lbs more than the ZHP. That's heavier than my E39 and that kind of weight is hard to mask with the best of suspensions.


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## NetEngWiz (Apr 5, 2004)

Speaking strictly from personal opinion, I would buy the S4. I love the looks and the power. I also like the Quattro system...I loved how it handled in my previous car. My personal thought is that the e46 is on it's way out of the door and I see one everywhere I turn my head. I've seen very few S4s around, but when I do see one I'm totally impressed. I'm not a brand biased person, so I would buy whatever appeals to me.


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

tsbrown said:


> Price: I'd do ED on the ZHP if I didn't have so much going on at work between now and December. But isn't the S4 also available thru ED with some corresponding savings?
> 
> Reliability: Agreed, there are risks here...see my earlier post on the reliability issues.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked Audi was not offering any European Deliver program. It's a shame. I think they should. 
Even if you are not going to do ED on ZHP, you still should be able to get a pretty good deal considering that this is going to be the last year of E46 platform.


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## AudiPutz (Oct 14, 2003)

Audi is working on offering ED again. A few months ago I've received a survey from AoA on the subject (and had several mail/e-mail exchanges with them about it). If they did offer it now I'd be picking up a S4 Avant instead of a 330i ZHP this August. It was a hard decision for me since I've owned quattros for the last 20 years now and they were all (3) great and reliable cars to me. When shopping for the new car I've also briefly contemplated the S60R thru OSD (ED) but it didn't feel like a driver's car to me. At ED price, I've paid $36,100, the ZHP is difficult to ignore by anyone that loves to drive. But if Audi doesn't screw up in the future (I'm not particulary fond of the new A6' interior design) I'm pretty sure my next car will be another Avant quattro and with a V8.



Wallenrod said:


> Last time I checked Audi was not offering any European Deliver program. It's a shame. I think they should.
> Even if you are not going to do ED on ZHP, you still should be able to get a pretty good deal considering that this is going to be the last year of E46 platform.


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

Wallenrod said:


> 1. Price difference. Let's talk about the REAL price difference here. If you take into account the normal deals (I'm not even going to talk about ED program offered by BMW) you can have on both ZHP and S4 plus GG tax plus difference in local taxes based on value, you are looking at more less $10K (more like over $10K). That's a chunk of money. Having said that, I got my 330i ZHP with moonroof and xenons doing ED for less than $37K plus tax/registration and cost of your ED vacation (which could be as little as $700 ticket to Europe if you choose to.) So, vacation cost aside, assuming that I would get S4 for $50K plus CA tax/license of around $4500 I am looking at around $55000 car. That assumes I can get a good discound on the price to begin with. Now my ZHP - $37K plus CA tax/License of around $3500 and we are looking at $40500 car. That's closer to $15K difference!!! Assuming that you have a fun two week vacation in Europe - you're difference shrinks to $10K.
> Audi will be a good value, when it's used. Just look at the B5 S4 values - dirt cheap. Wait 2 years and pick one at the price of a new Passat.
> 
> 2. Reliability. I'm sorry but every single person with VW/Audi I talk to has tons of problems and most of them stem from bad design and have to do with major car components. Engine, transmission etc. I'm on my 3rd BMW with no issues at all which I know IS unusual and I am probably bound to have something but still. Aslo most of BMW problems are minor compared and major ones do have a fix introduced even if sometimes a little late. I just think they are better engineered cars. Experiences will vary of course.
> ...


Well said. I agree 100%. :thumbup:

Either way anyone interested in the S4 should check-out Audiworld.com


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

I didn't read through all the previous posts. Seems like essays were written about BMW vs. Audi.

I have an e46 330i stick. My gf has a 2001 S4 with auto transmission. I drive her car all the time. Personally, I like my car better than my gf's car. Why? It's RWD vs AWD. With my car, it takes a lot more skill to drive the car well. This makes everyday driving fun. IMO, the S4 is just point and shoot, and it's not nearly as fun. The is S4 is indeed a lot faster... maybe I should take it to the track and try it out.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Wallenrod said:


> Last time I checked Audi was not offering any European Deliver program. It's a shame. I think they should.
> Even if you are not going to do ED on ZHP, you still should be able to get a pretty good deal considering that this is going to be the last year of E46 platform.


$2400 incentives on 330i's, thus a ZHP outfitted like mine (xenons, moon, metallic paint, leather) would cost about 37, 900.

Can you touch an S4 at 47k with those options?


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Wallenrod said:


> 1. Price difference. Let's talk about the REAL price difference here. If you take into account the normal deals (I'm not even going to talk about ED program offered by BMW) you can have on both ZHP and S4 plus GG tax plus difference in local taxes based on value, you are looking at more less $10K (more like over $10K). That's a chunk of money. Having said that, I got my 330i ZHP with moonroof and xenons doing ED for less than $37K plus tax/registration and cost of your ED vacation (which could be as little as $700 ticket to Europe if you choose to.) So, vacation cost aside, assuming that I would get S4 for $50K plus CA tax/license of around $4500 I am looking at around $55000 car. That assumes I can get a good discound on the price to begin with. Now my ZHP - $37K plus CA tax/License of around $3500 and we are looking at $40500 car. That's closer to $15K difference!!! Assuming that you have a fun two week vacation in Europe - you're difference shrinks to $10K.
> Audi will be a good value, when it's used. Just look at the B5 S4 values - dirt cheap. Wait 2 years and pick one at the price of a new Passat.
> 
> 2. Reliability. I'm sorry but every single person with VW/Audi I talk to has tons of problems and most of them stem from bad design and have to do with major car components. Engine, transmission etc. I'm on my 3rd BMW with no issues at all which I know IS unusual and I am probably bound to have something but still. Aslo most of BMW problems are minor compared and major ones do have a fix introduced even if sometimes a little late. I just think they are better engineered cars. Experiences will vary of course.
> ...


I agree with most everything. I was also thinking of an S4 when I bought my ZHP, but I was scared off by both the Audi/VAG reliability and inevitable first-year model issues. I test drove one a month or so ago, though, just to see if I'd regret my choice. I didn't. Didn't feel that powerful, that fast, or that good at hugging the curves. It felt very, very sedate, almost Mercedes-like. Top Gear nailed it when they did their S4/M3 comparo. The S4 is a laid-back, daily driver type of car. I'm sure it's more beastly than I was able to discern from my test drive, but it definitely didn't excite me. Made me question whether I'd want an S4 Avant, like I thought I had.

I'm not a BMW cheerleader, but I'd say stick to the ZHP here. I really doubt you'll regret your choice if you do. But definitely go and test drive the two back to back just to make sure. Good luck!


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> $2400 incentives on 330i's, thus a ZHP outfitted like mine (xenons, moon, metallic paint, leather) would cost about 37, 900.
> 
> Can you touch an S4 at 47k with those options?


What do you mean about touching S4? I don't quite get it. It's a $10+K more car than ZHP. That's what I said :dunno:


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## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

I don't think one can go wrong with the ZHP for the price...plus ED is an added bonus. If Audi was offering such now I still think I would go the ZHP - only because I already have an S4 and I wasn't interested in paying any more then what the ZHP is costing - plus its going to be fun and different for me and meets our needs. Still I wouldn't at all discount the S4 if I had the bucks for it - and I wouldn't discount the fun factor either. I certainly think mine handles right there with most any BMW - sure AWD is different - but can really be a hoot in many ways...and that torque is just awesome!

For the record - I do not at all like the new front ends that Audi is putting out in their upcomming cars - particularly for the smaller cars - does not at all work IMO...still Audi interiors do rule!


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## MicahO (Apr 19, 2004)

Roadhawk said:


> Well tsbrown - I don't have a B6 - but let me tell you my B5 Avant is just pure joy...


NOW YOU'RE TALKING BLAHLAH!

The S4, in Avant form, is a very compelling car. Attractive, spacious, goes like stink. Not something I'd really want to own off-warranty, that's just based on what I've heard and seen from friends and mechanics. But the first 50K miles in an S4 wagon would be pure joy. If you could get a mass-replacement program at 49.9K, like Roadhawk, you're probably talking 75K of joy.

Now if only they'd make a 330iT/ZHP....... That's a vehicle for a lifetime, even if it is short a few horsepower......


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## springo (Apr 11, 2004)

First of all- all cars can have some quality problems more or less. But the 3 series BMW has been in production for a longer time than the A4 and is more likely to be trouble free. Most of the quality issues discovered during production are taken care of by now, thats a general rule.

Audi will get you from a to b too, but it's a different car which gives you a different feeling. 
If you love BMW you'll only get that good feeling in one.


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## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

I've had 3 series as rental cars in EUrope before and I've test driven many (including several ZHPs)...so I have driven them hard - though have yet to own one and drive it on a daily basis. They drive great - no doubt - but so does the S4. Now mine is lowered and (H & R) sprung...and I've had an stock S4 owner comment how more precise my car handles compared to his - stickier with much less body roll...(I was on Toyo Proxis on 19" OZ Supperleggaras then....now have Yoko AVS....even better!). The stock B5 S4 has significant body roll and does not feel as precise as the ZHP...though is very close to the regular 3 IMO...still the 3 has a slight edge. But even the ZHP has more roll then my S4...though IMO the ZHP has better road feel and a much more precise feeling shifter (I may remedy that with a short shifter however...)....clutch play seemed very similar - and I haven;t driven the ZHP/3 enough to discern the CDV...didn't know about it when I test drove. I am of the understanding that the B6 S4 is much tighter then the stock B5...and that the shifter is more precise. Sure its weighty - and weightier then the B5 by a good bit - and I haven't driven one to know for sure - but I imagine it is a very sweet ride. Yes the ZHP is lighter and likely more tossable - but either will be driving joy. Believe me - the S4 kicks out and is fun. And while I can see (and have seen...) and perhaps agree a bit with the Top Gear asessment - remember - this is in comparison to an M3 - and the regular 3's - even the ZHP is much cushier. Bottom line both are fantastic rides. Is the extra 8-10K (not sure?) worth it for the new S4...depends on your needs (AWD in particualr come to mind), likes (RWD vs AWD, exclusivisity, like of the look, interior layout etc etc...need/desire for a wagon even perhaps...)...and sure perhaps some reliability concerns...I'll conceed that - and it should certainly be a factor...though I'm not sure if its enough of a factor (depends again on your theshold...and much - with any car - is luck of the draw...etc). I absolutly love my S4 - plan to have it for a long time - get great joy eveytime I drive it and can just stand and stare at it - even now - it is so sweet....and I know I am going to feel just the same about my ZHP 3! Either way - you can't go wrong IMO....


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Roadhawk said:


> I've had 3 series as rental cars in EUrope before and I've test driven many (including several ZHPs)...so I have driven them hard - though have yet to own one and drive it on a daily basis. They drive great - no doubt - but so does the S4. Now mine is lowered and (H & R) sprung...and I've had an stock S4 owner comment how more precise my car handles compared to his - stickier with much less body roll...(I was on Toyo Proxis on 19" OZ Supperleggaras then....now have Yoko AVS....even better!). The stock B5 S4 has significant body roll and does not feel as precise as the ZHP...though is very close to the regular 3 IMO...still the 3 has a slight edge. But even the ZHP has more roll then my S4...though IMO the ZHP has better road feel and a much more precise feeling shifter (I may remedy that with a short shifter however...)....clutch play seemed very similar - and I haven;t driven the ZHP/3 enough to discern the CDV...didn't know about it when I test drove. I am of the understanding that the B6 S4 is much tighter then the stock B5...and that the shifter is more precise. Sure its weighty - and weightier then the B5 by a good bit - and I haven't driven one to know for sure - but I imagine it is a very sweet ride. Yes the ZHP is lighter and likely more tossable - but either will be driving joy. Believe me - the S4 kicks out and is fun. And while I can see (and have seen...) and perhaps agree a bit with the Top Gear asessment - remember - this is in comparison to an M3 - and the regular 3's - even the ZHP is much cushier. Bottom line both are fantastic rides. Is the extra 8-10K (not sure?) worth it for the new S4...depends on your needs (AWD in particualr come to mind), likes (RWD vs AWD, exclusivisity, like of the look, interior layout etc etc...need/desire for a wagon even perhaps...)...and sure perhaps some reliability concerns...I'll conceed that - and it should certainly be a factor...though I'm not sure if its enough of a factor (depends again on your theshold...and much - with any car - is luck of the draw...etc). I absolutly love my S4 - plan to have it for a long time - get great joy eveytime I drive it and can just stand and stare at it - even now - it is so sweet....and I know I am going to feel just the same about my ZHP 3! Either way - you can't go wrong IMO....


I'm not disagreeing with you, but shouldn't we be comparing stock to stock? You can always mod the suspension and stuff of any car to make it more responsive, etc., after all.


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## Mohegan29 (Jan 15, 2004)

*S4 or M3*

M3 is a little higher going in but look at resale. Audi is like Saab & Volvo in resale. You just don't get the money out of 'em

You wil more than get the extra money you spend going in out of the M3.

Plus, the A4/S4 are just clones (hp aside) with minor grill and other changes. It looks a bit like the VW's. Somewhat boring and plain.

I don't know who posted it but more attention is better when you are driving a $50k+ sports car. I had to decide between the A4 caba dn the 330 cab. In the end, I knew the BMW was the best decision based on resale, looks, driving and "intangibles".

Ask yourself: Can you help but notice an M3 sitting at a light? I could nod off with the A4, I mean S4. Throw the cabriolet into the mix and there is no decision even necessary.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2004)

Mohegan29 said:


> M3 is a little higher going in but look at resale. Audi is like Saab & Volvo in resale. You just don't get the money out of 'em
> 
> You wil more than get the extra money you spend going in out of the M3.
> 
> ...


 And I'll reiterate that I much prefer my FAST car to be a sleeper rather than one that gets a lot of attention. I am secure enough that I do not need to be looked at everywhere I go. Stealth is good. Especially when it comes to local revenue officers.


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## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

1 word: Depreciation.  :yikes:


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## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

Well, I'll just say it, I like Audi's. I owned two, the first required one window regulator replaced during warranty ( I think I've heard BMW has that problem sometimes too), the second, a 225TTQ had the instrument cluster replaced (another common problem). I might well have ended up with a S4 if they had come out just a few months sooner, or at least announced their price structure before they started arriving. I enjoyed my ZHP, it was trouble free for the 7 months that I had it, and am now enjoying my M3, but I certainly wouldn't stop talking to you if you got a S4. Objectively, the car mags have nothing but praise for them, I know about the potential problems via Audiworld, but in the end, if you want it, get it.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

mtbscott said:


> Well, I'll just say it, I like Audi's. I owned two, the first required one window regulator replaced during warranty ( I think I've heard BMW has that problem sometimes too), the second, a 225TTQ had the instrument cluster replaced (another common problem). I might well have ended up with a S4 if they had come out just a few months sooner, or at least announced their price structure before they started arriving. I enjoyed my ZHP, it was trouble free for the 7 months that I had it, and am now enjoying my M3, but I certainly wouldn't stop talking to you if you got a S4. Objectively, the car mags have nothing but praise for them, I know about the potential problems via Audiworld, but in the end, if you want it, get it.


Well, I don't know if I'd call car reviews objective... :stickpoke


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## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

swchang said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but shouldn't we be comparing stock to stock? You can always mod the suspension and stuff of any car to make it more responsive, etc., after all.


Perhaps...but with the B5 S4 mods are so easy and yeild such results...

And I am refering to the stock B6 (regarding the buying decision in question) - which is a very exciting car right out of the box (not that the B5 isn't)...

And regarding the exclusivisity comment...how many S4s - particualry the B6 does one really see around? And take a look - particularly in the nogaro blue or the yellow - it is very distinctive and recognizable compared to the A4.

Regarding the M3...yeah I agree - an awesome car....and arguably the better (pure) sports car...(and again in the special colors - the teal & the yellow - simply brilliant) - what a car - no argument from me...but (again) don't discount the S4...and don't discount the AWD...in wet and snow simply amazing...I love being able to full throttle in both and just go! ...and cornering in the wet... ...the all around grip and tenacity has just got to be felt to be believed...though I've certainly made believers out of corvettes and other asundry sports cars...


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

Roadhawk said:


> I've had 3 series as rental cars in EUrope before and I've test driven many (including several ZHPs)...so I have driven them hard - though have yet to own one and drive it on a daily basis. They drive great - no doubt - but so does the S4. Now mine is lowered and (H & R) sprung...and I've had an stock S4 owner comment how more precise my car handles compared to his - stickier with much less body roll...(I was on Toyo Proxis on 19" OZ Supperleggaras then....now have Yoko AVS....even better!). The stock B5 S4 has significant body roll and does not feel as precise as the ZHP...though is very close to the regular 3 IMO...still the 3 has a slight edge. But even the ZHP has more roll then my S4...though IMO the ZHP has better road feel and a much more precise feeling shifter (I may remedy that with a short shifter however...)....clutch play seemed very similar - and I haven;t driven the ZHP/3 enough to discern the CDV...didn't know about it when I test drove. I am of the understanding that the B6 S4 is much tighter then the stock B5...and that the shifter is more precise. Sure its weighty - and weightier then the B5 by a good bit - and I haven't driven one to know for sure - but I imagine it is a very sweet ride. Yes the ZHP is lighter and likely more tossable - but either will be driving joy. Believe me - the S4 kicks out and is fun. And while I can see (and have seen...) and perhaps agree a bit with the Top Gear asessment - remember - this is in comparison to an M3 - and the regular 3's - even the ZHP is much cushier. Bottom line both are fantastic rides. Is the extra 8-10K (not sure?) worth it for the new S4...depends on your needs (AWD in particualr come to mind), likes (RWD vs AWD, exclusivisity, like of the look, interior layout etc etc...need/desire for a wagon even perhaps...)...and sure perhaps some reliability concerns...I'll conceed that - and it should certainly be a factor...though I'm not sure if its enough of a factor (depends again on your theshold...and much - with any car - is luck of the draw...etc). I absolutly love my S4 - plan to have it for a long time - get great joy eveytime I drive it and can just stand and stare at it - even now - it is so sweet....and I know I am going to feel just the same about my ZHP 3! Either way - you can't go wrong IMO....


If you like S4s (and own one) you owe it to yourself to test drive the new B6 version. IMO it is so much better car than B5 platform. It feels more in "one piece", more directional, less roll, V8 is just great, suspension is very good and the shifter is better than the one in ZHP. My only real complaints were very light clutch and soft steering. Though it was not terrible it was definitely worse than ZHP. I really liked the new S4 but I think too that, unless you're leasing it, it's kind of silly to buy one. They really depreciate like crazy. In a few years, especially when we have our second child, I may pick up a used S4 Avant. It should be close to one of our depreciated 330is.
Now, on an unrelated subject, if someone picks a regular A4 (even 3.0) over 330i (especially ZHP) they must be crazy, unless they really need AWD. It is a soft, unresponsive and underpowered car. I would pick a 325i any day over A4 3.0....

By the way, that's what I saw on craigslist today:

http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/35792555.html

I'd really like to know why he's switching to this 545i?


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## Wallenrod (Nov 25, 2003)

TD said:


> And I'll reiterate that I much prefer my FAST car to be a sleeper rather than one that gets a lot of attention. I am secure enough that I do not need to be looked at everywhere I go. Stealth is good. Especially when it comes to local revenue officers.


Yeah, I absolutely agree. That's always been the attraction for me when it comes to BMW. Elegant and practical sedan that's fast and great handling. I don't want it to LOOK fast or that different than regular versions. That's the whole appeal. Just look at the 3 past generations of M5s. That's the whole point. I hate things like M3 gills, spoiler wings, bigger wheel wells etc etc. That's why I would never get cars like Evo or Sti. 
S4 has the same type of appeal. It looks almost the same as a regular A4, the differences are very subtle and tasteful. You have to look much closer. I really like that. Ultimate sleeper car.


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## Roadhawk (May 21, 2004)

I know the new S4 is very nice, but I'm not in the market for another car (...am getting my ZHP in exactly 1 week!) - and was not interested in spending 50K+ for a car anyway. However I doubt it is much tighter (handling wise) then my B5....but I'm not stock certainly. And I do understand that the shift action is sweet - one area where the B5 could use some improvement (and it is available....)...and that V8 rumble is awesome...mine is very quiet until the Turbos and such kick in - then its pretty sweet too...anyway I know of two B5 owners who were set on the B6 - but after driving it chose to stay with the B5. Both felt the B5 quicker! (one is stock and one is modded)...and both perferred the Turbo whoosh (and torque feel) over the V8 - neither felt the new car was all that much better - if at all - over the B5.....and I do know that mine is as quick or quicker then the B6 (even avant vs Sedan)...and it drives great...so I'm happy with it - would love to drive a B6 though - just to check it out. And I do like being a bit of a sleeper...though my car is a looker and gets the looks (the 19s, color and tailpipe are a bit of a give away - even for those not in the know...)

I've got mixed opinions concerning the 3 series vs A4...I think an argument could be made for both (A4 is not just AWD - but more luxury as well...and toss up concerning looks - depends on your preferences...)...I'm happy I'm getting a 3 though - it fits me/my needs better right now...and in particualr with the ZHP.


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## beware_phog (Mar 7, 2003)

tsbrown said:


> I did the unthinkable today...I test-drove the S4. But first a little background...I'm on my 3rd BMW in 10 years - E36 coupe, and 2 E39's, plus my wife's 2 bimmers - 740i & X5. In short, I love BMWs and always have. I'm currently looking at trading my '00 528i (see sig. for details) for the 330i ZHP...if only I can get LeMans Blue or some special order blue color. I've never driven the M3 and would love the performance except that I want/need a 4-door. I've driven the E60 sport and, while it's nice, it's grown too big for me. Plus I don't love the styling. Enter the S4.
> 
> For only $4-5k over a similarly equipped ZHP and with performance closer to the M3 ($10k diff.), the S4 is pretty appealing. I haven't really pushed it on a test drive, like I have the ZHP, so I don't know if the handling is really as good. But the power is definitely there, the ride is firm but comfortable, and the interior really is a notch better than the 3er. Not to mention I'd order Nogaro Blue in a heartbeat. A few negatives...the pedal position is definitely skewed to the right compared with a bimmer...it's awkward at first. Plus the exhaust if very throaty...much more so than a ZHP. Not bad, but definitely letting you know it's there. Oh yeah, it needs a 500lb diet (but the 4WD does have benefits). Then there's the $1700 gas guzzler tax for the 6spd. Still, Audi has served up strong competition.
> 
> ...


Leave. What do I care?


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## TLudwig (Mar 30, 2004)

Wallenrod said:


> Yeah, I absolutely agree. That's always been the attraction for me when it comes to BMW. Elegant and practical sedan that's fast and great handling. I don't want it to LOOK fast or that different than regular versions. That's the whole appeal. Just look at the 3 past generations of M5s. That's the whole point. I hate things like M3 gills, spoiler wings, bigger wheel wells etc etc. That's why I would never get cars like Evo or Sti.
> S4 has the same type of appeal. It looks almost the same as a regular A4, the differences are very subtle and tasteful. You have to look much closer. I really like that. Ultimate sleeper car.


 :stupid:


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