# heel & toe vs. double clutching...which one?



## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Gabe said:


> Please tell me how it can possibly be faster to double clutch when upshifting in a drag racing situation?
> 
> I dont think the action is faster, only that you insure your ability to get into gear at the optimal time. I bet with your technique you miss some shifts, because the gates on the tranny open and close with the throttle, your money shifts are bound to run into one of these gates at the most inopurtune time (Like a race)
> 
> ...


----------



## Gabe (Sep 20, 2004)

doeboy said:


> I totally agree with you here... except for heel toe... I do it quite often... keeps me in practice for when it really counts... of course when I do it on the street it's in a far far more toned-down version... but it helps me stay sharp on how the pedals feel and how much input I need to give on the pedals for different situations.


I practice heel toeing on the street in between lapping days as well... However the original poster seemed quite concerned with drivetrain wear. There is no real NEED to heel toe on the street, so if you are _REALLY_ concerned with wear and tear, don't do it. That being said, I think these cars were meant to be *driven*. Heel toeing here and there is not going to do too much harm - even if you botch it up from time to time.



misterlance said:


> I dont think the action is faster, only that you insure your ability to get into gear at the optimal time. I bet with your technique you miss some shifts, because the gates on the tranny open and close with the throttle, your money shifts are bound to run into one of these gates at the most inopurtune time (Like a race)


I won't lie and say that I have never missed a gear... But I have spent a fair amount of time at the drag strip, and I can count on my left hand how many times it has actually happened.

Have you ever raced at a drag strip? If not, you would be very surprised to see how much every little action drastically effects your time. It is definitely not as easy as it looks - and extremely hard to lay down consistently fast times.

I can garauntee that anyone who is serious about drag racing in a car with a modern manual transmission does not double clutch. It simply takes too much time.



misterlance said:


> All right Ill try to be patient with this one. Of course if your just daily driving disregard my remarks. But If your hittin the corners deep, downshifting and accelerating out of the apex at some point your gonna wanna downshift while on the brakes. Heal toe is for this situation.


See my reply to doeboy.


----------



## Ace (Apr 9, 2004)

Gabe said:


> A good howto for heel toeing can be found over at G2IC. They also have a nice blurb about double clutching which briefly explains why this is better for your synchros than heel toeing, or rev matching with the clutch in.


thanx gabe. i think those 2 links provided me with more of the info that i was looking for. i will continue to try to get the double clutch right....but will also start using the heel and toe more...


----------



## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

misterlance said:


> Double clutching IMO is best used in drag situations. But basically your trying to engage the gear change as quick as possible without running into the transmission "gate". If you watch race car drivers (esp. the ones w/ sequential) they dont use the clutch at all they match the RPMs with tranny using the "blip".


Sorry to burst your bubble, Lance....but you`re absolutely clueless here....a drag racer will "Power-Shift" a manual trans, i.e., keeping the throttle to the floor the entire run, WHACKING the clutch pedal as fast as humanly possible while ripping the next gear, no time to f**k around with a double-clutch....HOWEVER, double-clutching is a valuable skill to master, as it relieves most of the strain on your synchros (especially while downshifting), which are only soft brass, not hardened steel like the rest of the gearbox....

Regards,
Bob


----------



## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

misterlance said:


> Double clutching IMO is best used in drag situations.


"Double-clutching" is a technique meant to be done pretty much exclusively during down-shifts. You would never want to use it in a drag race. (As *Fast Bob* pointed out, you are probably describing a power-shift.)


----------



## allaboutme (Dec 22, 2003)

FenPhen said:


> "Double-clutching" is a technique meant to be done pretty much exclusively during down-shifts. You would never want to use it in a drag race. (As *Fast Bob* pointed out, you are probably describing a power-shift.)


I heard old semis required double clutch upshifting. In fact, I think the technique was so important that you would fail the vehicle exam if it isn't performed or performed correctly. It could be hearsay though.


----------



## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

Gabe said:


> If you are just driving on the street, heel toeing is over kill. If you are really concerned about wear to your synchros, double clutching will be a better practice.


Could not disagree more.

I can't even imagine driving to 7-11 without heel-toeing my downshifts. How many miles do you get from your clutches?

My 02' 325 has 51K miles - 60% highway, 20% city, 20% NYC traffic. I taught myself stick on this car (I drove it off the dealers lot not knowing how to drive a manual :eeps: ) I'm still on the original clutch and it's still grabbing like new.

BTW for you rookies, it's not so much "heel & toe" but rather "big toe-pinky toe". Use your big toe to brake and your pinky toe on the throttle.


----------



## teamdfl (Sep 24, 2002)

Take a 250k mile 80's BMW on its original transmission to a driving school and you will very quickly learn the importance of double clutching AND heel-toe. Do a couple track days with that car and you will become proficient at double clutch heel-toe downshifting.

Ed


----------



## Gabe (Sep 20, 2004)

shizat63 said:


> Could not disagree more.
> 
> I can't even imagine driving to 7-11 without heel-toeing my downshifts. How many miles do you get from your clutches?
> 
> ...


If you read my other posts in this thread, you would have seen that I do in fact heel toe on the street.

It is 100% un-necessary. Even when trying to "save your clutch" there are better methods.

There is no reason whatsoever to be braking and downshifting at the same time on the street, unless you are either practicing your heel toe technique, or driving hard. Neither of which are a requirement to get you from point A to B.

Want to save wear on your clutch (or more specifically, the synchros)? Instead of downshifting while breaking, pull it out of gear, and simply use your breaks. Or, if you must downshift to pass (etc), double clutch. It is a proven fact that both of these methods will wear less on your clutch/synchros than heel toeing.

Again, this is not to say that heel toeing is bad for your car, because it is not.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

I can't believe all this misinformation regarding heel-toe downshifting and double clutching. If you learn WHY each of these invented then you'll know when you need to use them and the why will / should be quite explanatory.

Heel toe was invented in order to prevent rear wheel lockup during hard braking when it's necessary to get into the lowest possible gear in order to accelerate, typically out of a corner, immediately after braking ends. (high performance driving)

Double clutching is used during this braking process in order to save the synchros from extended wear because of the huge difference in gear speeds (internal to the transmission). Regardless, you wouldn't need to double clutch unless you are in an extreme hard braking situation. 

Now, all the SMG haters can spend years and years trying to master this when BMW's SMG transmissions will do ALL of this, impecably, at every single time it's required.


----------



## Fast Bob (Jun 4, 2004)

SergioK said:


> Now, all the SMG haters can spend years and years trying to master this when BMW's SMG transmissions will do ALL of this, impecably, at every single time it's required.


I just hope all you SMG guys can maintain this cavalier attitude when the out-of-warranty repair bills come rolling in....

Regards,
Bob


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I'm not understanding information in a couple of these posts, but here are some of my thoughts.

Heel-toeing and double-clutching are not exclusive techniques. Ace, you seem to think they are. They can be used in conjunction with each other.

Heel-toe should not increase wear on your clutch any more than any other shift.

Double-clutch downshifts are less necessary with the invention of synchros, but I find that I get locked out of gears more easily if I single-clutch.


----------



## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

Gabe said:


> There is no reason whatsoever to be braking and downshifting at the same time on the street, unless you are either practicing your heel toe technique, or driving hard. Neither of which are a requirement to get you from point A to B.
> 
> Want to save wear on your clutch (or more specifically, the synchros)? Instead of downshifting while breaking, pull it out of gear, and simply use your breaks. Or, if you must downshift to pass (etc), double clutch. It is a proven fact that both of these methods will wear less on your clutch/synchros than heel toeing.


Again, I respectfully disagree. If you don't heel-toe, then you have to either 
1) stay in the same higher gear and accelerate slowly
2) downshift, but you're forced to come up slowly on the clutch and wear it out

Engine braking is another story. It should only be done sparingly. I don't do it unless on a long downhill or in the snow. If you heal toe correctly engine braking is not as bad b/c you take the load off the clutch.

You should not be coasting in N. But I'm guilty of that now and then :eeps:


----------



## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

shizat63 said:


> Again, I respectfully disagree. If you don't heel-toe, then you have to either
> 1) stay in the same higher gear and accelerate slowly
> 2) downshift, but you're forced to come up slowly on the clutch and wear it out
> 
> ...


Actually, I've never understood engine braking. I think it means you downshift to a lower gear in order to use the engine, not the brakes, to slow the car? So if you want to just let off the brakes, it's not engine braking, but if you downshift, whether by heel-toeing (and thus using gas when you're trying to slow down  ) or by just slowly letting off the clutch without rev-matching, then you are. Ja?


----------



## allaboutme (Dec 22, 2003)

swchang said:


> Actually, I've never understood engine braking. I think it means you downshift to a lower gear in order to use the engine, not the brakes, to slow the car?


That sounds about right.. Engine braking's purpose is to control the speed of a car when doing a LONG descent so not to overheat the brakes (since an overheated brake is useless, ja?) and when the brakes have already overheated and engine braking is needed to bring a car down to speed (5->4->3->2 shifts will certainly drag the car down if your car's engine is "capable" of engine braking. I hear some engines are more effective than others)

and I think the history behind the invention of double clutch was to allow shifting in the first place because gears would grind without it, ja? i'm with you when you say double clutching allows you to grab a gear without being locked out. i find i'm locked out when i dont double clutch it. it's most obvious when i need to grab 1st coming down from second to climb my driveway. a quick double clutch blip and 1st quickly and easily snicks into place. otherwise im locked out of the gear momentarily


----------



## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

Gabe said:


> There is no reason whatsoever to be braking and downshifting at the same time on the street, unless you are either practicing your heel toe technique, or driving hard. Neither of which are a requirement to get you from point A to B.


While not a requirement, there is one turn near where I live that really benefits from a heel-toe down-shift. The main road is a 55-mph mini-highway where everyone goes 60-65, and I come to a traffic light to turn right on to a residential street. The traffic light is almost always green, so the right turn is free, and the residential street immediately starts on a fairly steep grade up a hill (the grade ends right at the main street).

I've never heel-toed before my 330i, but this turn has encouraged me to start using it. Since the light is always green, you don't stop at the turn. Since there's a hill right where the exit is, you need to be in 2nd and not bog the engine and you don't want to down-shift into 1st cause there's no stop. In order to make this turn without heel-toe, I either have to rev up to 5500 rpm (~55 mph) to match 2nd and then brake late, or I'd have to brake early, match 2nd at around 3500 rpm (35 mph), brake again, then turn (the corner has limited visibility, so I can't take it too fast).

With heel-toe, I can go from 5th to 2nd while braking and carry speed through the corner to go up the hill on the other side in one fluid motion (when I do it right, anyway :eeps: ).


----------



## shizat63 (Feb 14, 2002)

swchang said:


> Actually, I've never understood engine braking. I think it means you downshift to a lower gear in order to use the engine, not the brakes, to slow the car? So if you want to just let off the brakes, it's not engine braking, but if you downshift, whether by heel-toeing (and thus using gas when you're trying to slow down  ) or by just slowly letting off the clutch without rev-matching, then you are. Ja?


Correct, you use the engine to slow the car down. But if you are traveling at 40mph in 4th and you downshift into 3rd or 2nd, then you obviously have to come up really slowly on the clutch inducing much wear on the clutch plates.

Brakes are cheap, but transmission and the engine are not. Only engine brake when you need to, as I said in the snow or down a long steep hill. And keep in mind the fools tailgating you don't see a brake light.

Engine braking and heel-toe downshifting are not mutually exclusive- you can do both. In fact, you "should" do them when for example you come up to a car in front of you making a left, or when approaching a red light.

We're all out to have fun, whether you're driving cross country or out to pick up a qt of milk. There's nothing more satisfying than a perfect heel-toe double clutch from 4th into 2nd as you enter and pull away from a turn :thumbup: Can't do that in an SMG :flipoff:


----------



## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

swchang said:


> Actually, I've never understood engine braking. I think it means you downshift to a lower gear in order to use the engine, not the brakes, to slow the car? So if you want to just let off the brakes, it's not engine braking, but if you downshift, whether by heel-toeing (and thus using gas when you're trying to slow down  ) or by just slowly letting off the clutch without rev-matching, then you are. Ja?


At any time that the clutch is engaged and you are not applying gas, you are engine-braking, because the engine has resistance acting on the wheels though the drivetrain.

When you are going down a long descent or are going to do a gradual deceleration, you want to apply more engine-braking, so you downshift to a lower gear (typically 3rd or 2nd), because the gear reduction requires the wheels to drive the engine up to a higher speed, which dissipates the energy the car is carrying.

If you rev-match the down-shift, you won't hurt your car in any way (it's no different from just letting off the gas at high rpm), and you are saving your brakes for when you need them (say you're coasting down a grade at a lower gear, traveling at constant speed without using brakes, and then a deer jumps out in front of you). Also, your braking potential is greater because the engine is helping.

Engine-braking does *NOT* mean no rev-match down-shift and using the clutch to brake the car! Or at least, it shouldn't.


----------



## allaboutme (Dec 22, 2003)

shizat63 said:


> But if you are traveling at 40mph in 4th and you downshift into 3rd or 2nd, then you obviously have to come up really slowly on the clutch inducing much wear on the clutch plates.
> 
> Can't do that in an SMG :flipoff:


40mph in 4th is around 2000rpm. I only do this when I am crusing a long stretch and when I see a road block ahead (a car turning, for instance) I double clutch and blip and off I go. Why would I even need to slip the clutch slowly at that speed? I can also drop to second with a few blips. You just need to know an approximate rpm for the gear and speed. Once you know that, blip a little higher than it should be so it allows you time to clutch in, shift, and clutch back out without needing to slip the clutch.

and I believe SMG automatically double clutches. You can assist still hell-toe it which would help it out. I am positive m3 owners have mentioned that it's satisfying to do their heel-toe equivilent.


----------



## allaboutme (Dec 22, 2003)

FenPhen said:


> At any time that the clutch is engaged and you are not applying gas, you are engine-braking, because the engine has resistance acting on the wheels though the drivetrain.


Well, but engine braking is only effective in some instances. 30mph in 6th gear probably provides so little to no engine braking. and at 100mph and 6th, air resistance probably provides more braking than the engine.


----------

