# Cadillac ATS first drive reviews are here!



## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-cadillac-ats-first-drive-review

http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/ats/2013/2013-cadillac-ats-premium-full-test.html

I don't know about you guys but I think this car looks like a home run! I was really thinking about the upcoming F31 with M package but no I6 and manual is a bummer. The 2.0T ATS looks like a fantastic car for the money.


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## crowz (Oct 28, 2006)

Ive driven several of the newer model cadillacs and like everything about them except the front end. I know its just my opinion and all but that is the butt ugliest front end in the world to me. Otherwise great car. Handles well, rides great and power all over the place. Just that front end.....


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

crowz said:


> Ive driven several of the newer model cadillacs and like everything about them except the front end. I know its just my opinion and all but that is the butt ugliest front end in the world to me. Otherwise great car. Handles well, rides great and power all over the place. Just that front end.....


Agree to disagree.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Cool. Too late... already ordered my F30.


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## windsor027 (Feb 8, 2006)

This could be a serious challenge only when Cadillac comes with the 8-speed auto box. I would never consider it since the 3.6L doesn't come with a manual transmission.


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## CE750Jockey (Nov 8, 2011)

There's a lot to like, except that styling looks like a wedge of wood used as a doorstop. Ugly. It's not for me.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

LegendsNeverDie said:


> Agree to disagree.


+1

Although I am a little disappointed from the initial reviews. The ATS probably will not match my E90 in the "feel" department, and fall short of the F30 on numbers on the paper.

However, if an ATS equipped with LSD and MRC can be had for less than a non sport 3 series, it will be a different story.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

windsor027 said:


> This could be a serious challenge only when Cadillac comes with the 8-speed auto box. I would never consider it since the 3.6L doesn't come with a manual transmission.


I prefer 6 over 8. The 8 is too smooth, at times it felt like CVT. But I agree most buyers will be sold on 8 spd.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

LegendsNeverDie said:


> Cadillac ATS first drive reviews are here!
> 
> I don't know about you guys but I think this car looks like a home run! I was really thinking about the upcoming F31 with M package but no I6 and manual is a bummer. The 2.0T ATS looks like a fantastic car for the money.


This is a joke, right?

No BMW driver would ever buy a Cadillac.

BJ


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

boltjaM3s said:


> This is a joke, right?
> 
> No BMW driver would ever buy a Cadillac.
> 
> BJ


BJ, since you like to drive to the Wal-Mart parking lot from time to time, a Caddy will be a better candidate.


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## crowz (Oct 28, 2006)

dtc100 said:


> BJ, since you like to drive to the Wal-Mart parking lot from time to time, a Caddy will be a better candidate.


I imagine he's camry followers wouldnt be as impressed with the caddy


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## jlukja (Jun 20, 2012)

boltjaM3s said:


> This is a joke, right?
> 
> No BMW driver would ever buy a Cadillac.
> 
> BJ


And this, in a nutshell, is Cadillac's challenge.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

jlukja said:


> And this, in a nutshell, is Cadillac's challenge.


It takes decades of marketing work and a killer car to undo the damage that Cadillac did in the 70's and 80's and they haven't even started on either. And everyone knows that a Cadillac is just a rebadged Chevrolet, not like Lexus who does a decent cover-up job on it's rebadged Toyota's.

If I showed up to go golfing with my buddies in a Cadillac, they'd laugh me right off the course. Even my wife's 80 year old uncle got rid of his Cadillac for a 5 Series, didn't want to meet his maker driving such an unsightly, status-less car.

BJ


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

After reading as many first drives as time allowed, one thing got me excited about the ATS is the 6 spd AT tranny.

People have forever argued you have to have a 6 MT to enjoy driving a sport sedan. But many of us are limited to AT, because we buy a sedan for good reason.

One of the very frustrating issues with the 6 spd AT is that the ECU can't really adjust to the driver's desired gear holding or shift. By switching to the DS mode, BMW managed to make a much more sportier car out of my N52, but it is still not enough. Attacking or coming out of a corner is painful. Some of us learned "throttle blip" to mimic the 6MT, but with limited success.

Now comes the new ATS 6 spd AT. According to every report I gleened so far, it has the intelligence to rev-match up and down the gears, based on the feedback from the driver's foot pressure on the brake or gas pedal, and it rev-matched perfectly.

That alone will be enough for me to try it out. Seriously this is one thing that I am still struggling in my N52 after over two years.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

boltjaM3s said:


> This is a joke, right?
> 
> No BMW driver would ever buy a Cadillac.
> 
> BJ


No sure if serious.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

boltjaM3s said:


> It takes decades of marketing work and a killer car to undo the damage that Cadillac did in the 70's and 80's and they haven't even started on either. And everyone knows that a Cadillac is just a rebadged Chevrolet, not like Lexus who does a decent cover-up job on it's rebadged Toyota's.
> 
> If I showed up to go golfing with my buddies in a Cadillac, they'd laugh me right off the course. Even my wife's 80 year old uncle got rid of his Cadillac for a 5 Series, didn't want to meet his maker driving such an unsightly, status-less car.
> 
> BJ


You do realize you drive a 3 series right? With the base engine at that (US).


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

dtc100 said:


> After reading as many first drives as time allowed, one thing got me excited about the ATS is the 6 spd AT tranny.
> 
> People have forever argued you have to have a 6 MT to enjoy driving a sport sedan. But many of us are limited to AT, because we buy a sedan for good reason.
> 
> ...


I agree. The auto is pretty weird. I drove a 328i Sport Auto and 2011 335 Xdrive Auto and the 335 was actually worse.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

I dont know how Caddy has tuned the software for their electric steering, but it's interesting how C&D kind of glossed over that it is electric. It is the same ZF unit that BMW uses. Seems to me C&D kind of gave Caddy a pass, because there's no history with which to compare it.


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

boltjaM3s said:


> This is a joke, right?
> 
> No BMW driver would ever buy a Cadillac.
> 
> BJ


This assumes that:

*"All X are Y"*

*X=* BMW owners

*Y=* Drivers who buy for "status" or "status only."

If there is at least one BMW driver who drives a BMW for reasons other than status, then the statement "No BMW driver would ever buy a Cadillac." is *False*.

--------------


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

boltjaM3s said:


> It takes decades of marketing work and a killer car to undo the damage that Cadillac did in the 70's and 80's


*True.* Add the 90s and into the 2000s as well.



boltjaM3s said:


> and they haven't even started on either.


*False.* Build quality, marketing have both stepped up big time.



boltjaM3s said:


> And everyone knows that a Cadillac is just a rebadged Chevrolet, not like Lexus who does a decent cover-up job on it's rebadged Toyota's.


:rofl:



boltjaM3s said:


> If I showed up to go golfing with my buddies in a Cadillac, they'd laugh me right off the course. Even my wife's 80 year old uncle got rid of his Cadillac for a 5 Series, didn't want to meet his maker driving such an unsightly, status-less car.BJ


*True.* Birds of a feather, flock together.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Chris90 said:


> Definitely - the US car mags, the ones who sell for $1/issue, are all just paid advertisers. Even the comparisons are always: "we loved every car, but the BMW was the best".
> 
> I'll trust a magazine review if it's a CAR or EVO review, but won't trust a C&D, R&T etc. Not sure how the bloggers fit in here (Autoblog etc).
> 
> The CTS has been a huge success for Caddy, so someone's buying them, and I don't think it's old geezers buying the CTS-V.


As I posted earlier the average CTS-V owner is 47, the same age as the average BMW driver with an income that is approx 30% higher.

CA


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Stingray23 said:


> As if BMW makes a pure sports car:rofl:


Not any more!


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

Is that dude boltjaM3 being serious with his posts or is he just having some fun with us? I really cannot see someone being so delusional. When I was buying my BMW the last thing that came to my mind was "status". First thing that jumped out was how basic the car was when it comes to luxury features (give its price) and how plain it looks . I bought it because it drove like no other car in this segment, razor sharp. I did not buy it for looks, BMW status or luxury. Handling, braking, steering feedback and phenomenal I6 were the reasons, never "status". If Hyundai made a vehicle that behaved in the same manner and offered it for less I would not hesitate it to buy it over the BMW. I am big BMW fan but a bigger car enthusiast so no matter what brand, if there is a car that I like, I will buy it.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

2010drive said:


> Wake up, BMW is not a status symbol anymore. People making 40K a year are driving them for gods sake...


There have always been inexpensive BMW's, never changed the fact that they were status symbols then, doesn't change the fact that they're status symbols now.

I really don't understand why people buy status symbols if they hate status. If you want a pedestrian ride, no need to drive something that makes others green with envy. Go get an Audi. Or a Cadillac.

BJ


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

LegendsNeverDie said:


> Is that dude boltjaM3 being serious with his posts or is he just having some fun with us? I really cannot see someone being so delusional. When I was buying my BMW the last thing that came to my mind was "status". First thing that jumped out was how basic the car was when it comes to luxury features (give its price) and how plain it looks . I bought it because it drove like no other car in this segment, razor sharp. I did not buy it for looks, BMW status or luxury. Handling, braking, steering feedback and phenomenal I6 were the reasons, never "status". If Hyundai made a vehicle that behaved in the same manner and offered it for less I would not hesitate it to buy it over the BMW. I am big BMW fan but a bigger car enthusiast so no matter what brand, if there is a car that I like, I will buy it.


That dude is quite serious. The average BMW driver is in his BMW for the status it brings, the average American sees the BMW roundel and believes a wealthy man is driving it.

You mentioned what motivated you to buy your BMW and that's admirable, no criticism from me. Similarly I expect to be admired and receive no criticism because of what motivated me- I bought the car for its status. The fact that it handles great and comes with a mythical sporty heritage is just an afterthought, a bonus. It's great that you'd buy a Hyundai if they made one to the F30 spec. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai as I'd lose my friends and have my family laugh at me.

We both love our cars, so why do we have an issue?

BJ


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

boltjaM3s said:


> That dude is quite serious. The average BMW driver is in his BMW for the status it brings, the average American sees the BMW roundel and believes a wealthy man is driving it.
> 
> You mentioned what motivated you to buy your BMW and that's admirable, no criticism from me. Similarly I expect to be admired and receive no criticism because of what motivated me- I bought the car for its status. The fact that it handles great and comes with a mythical sporty heritage is just an afterthought, a bonus. It's great that you'd buy a Hyundai if they made one to the F30 spec. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai as I'd lose my friends and have my family laugh at me.
> 
> ...


BJ, why do you not choose Mercedes? Their perceived status and wealth of their owners is significantly more than that of BMWs. The perception of BMW owners is more that they are self-absorbed, jerks on the road.


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## mdsbuc (Mar 17, 2005)

tturedraider said:


> BJ, why do you not choose Mercedes? Their perceived status and wealth of their owners is significantly more than that of BMWs. *The perception of BMW owners is more that they are self-absorbed, jerks on the road.*


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

tturedraider said:


> BJ, why do you not choose Mercedes? Their perceived status and wealth of their owners is significantly more than that of BMWs. The perception of BMW owners is more that they are self-absorbed, jerks on the road.


I don't need a big car, so the E and the 5 are out. If I needed a large sedan, yes, I'd be in the E Class.

But when it boils down to the C and the 3 however, there is no contest. For decades, the 3 Series has been thought of as the best-in-class performance enthusiasts luxury ride for a younger, more sporty buyer. Gets a lot more status than the C Class which is thought of as the poor-man's budget Mercedes for an older, softer buyer. The C just hasn't got any backstory whereas the 3 does. I owe the performance enthusiast community a big debt of gratitude for providing my ride with status that it actually doesn't deserve. The Ultimate Status Machine.

Oh, and chicks dig a jerk. Arrogance and a BMW will get you a lot further than humility and a Mercedes.

BJ


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

boltjaM3s said:


> That dude is quite serious. The average BMW driver is in his BMW for the status it brings, the average American sees the BMW roundel and believes a wealthy man is driving it.
> 
> You mentioned what motivated you to buy your BMW and that's admirable, no criticism from me. Similarly I expect to be admired and receive no criticism because of what motivated me- I bought the car for its status. The fact that it handles great and comes with a mythical sporty heritage is just an afterthought, a bonus. It's great that you'd buy a Hyundai if they made one to the F30 spec. *I wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai as I'd lose my friends* and have my family laugh at me.
> 
> ...


BJ,

I certainly hope you are not serious because if you are you need to find some new friends.

FWIW I'll still be your friend if you're caught dead in a Hyundai.

Edit:

Actually, now that I think of it you will probably lose your friends regardless of what car you are caught dead in.

So allow me to rephase.

I will still be your friend if you buy a Hyundai

CA


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## Stingray23 (Oct 9, 2007)

boltjaM3s said:


> That dude is quite serious. The average BMW driver is in his BMW for the status it brings, the average American sees the BMW roundel and believes a wealthy man is driving it.
> 
> You mentioned what motivated you to buy your BMW and that's admirable, no criticism from me. Similarly I expect to be admired and receive no criticism because of what motivated me- I bought the car for its status. The fact that it handles great and comes with a mythical sporty heritage is just an afterthought, a bonus. It's great that you'd buy a Hyundai if they made one to the F30 spec. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai as* I'd lose my friends and have my family laugh at me.*
> 
> ...


So you give a **** about how people perceive you? How old are you? :bawling:


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> BJ,
> 
> I certainly hope you are not serious because if you are you need to find some new friends.
> 
> ...


My friends and I understand each other, all have the same values, same priorities. Make money, marry a trophy wife, make beautiful children, drive nice cars, buy nice houses, be discreet with the mistresses, retire, vacation, die.

The Hyundai does not fit in that lifestyle.

BJ


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

Stingray23 said:


> So you give a **** about how people perceive you? How old are you?


Don't be hypocritical.

I would cringe if others perceived me to be worthy of a Hyundai. You would cringe if others perceived you to be driving a status-symbol. Same thing. Just like the kills I get with the badge that you get with the engine. We both use our BMW's for a purpose. You don't like mine, I don't like yours, but we both have an agenda.

The big picture: I knew going in that the BMW has a perception of an enthusiasts sports car and you knew going in that the BMW has a perception of a yuppie status-symbol. There are no surprises here for either of us.

BJ


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## Shades (Sep 24, 2002)

boltjaM3s said:


> I don't need a big car, so the E and the 5 are out. If I needed a large sedan, yes, I'd be in the E Class.
> 
> But when it boils down to the C and the 3 however, there is no contest. For decades, the 3 Series has been thought of as the best-in-class performance enthusiasts luxury ride for a younger, more sporty buyer. Gets a lot more status than the C Class which is thought of as the poor-man's budget Mercedes for an older, softer buyer. The C just hasn't got any backstory whereas the 3 does. I owe the performance enthusiast community a big debt of gratitude for providing my ride with status that it actually doesn't deserve. The Ultimate Status Machine.
> 
> ...


LOL,I would have to agree with you for many of the people driving a BMW now.Are you one of them or do you love jumping into your car every day and enjoy the driving experience?


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

boltjaM3s said:


> The "iPad Gen" is 14 years old. Yeah, every high school kid is just _dying _to drive a Cadillac.
> 
> BJ


37% of iPad owners are age 35 and older, mostly male. I would imagine a sizable iPad owners are 25 to 35 and mostly male too.

Regardless, the CUE is clearly designed to attract younger and male buyers. The interface is very familiar to both the Apple and Android users.

For those who might be turned off by the touch screen, it appears GM thought about them too. Based on all the reviews, the ATS has by far the most robust hands free voice command, not fancy, but robust. You can talk like a real person, not a robot. Something that might attract some of your mid life crisis male friends, especially if GM uses voice over from a girl named Ginger.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

LegendsNeverDie said:


> Is that dude boltjaM3 being serious with his posts or is he just having some fun with us? I really cannot see someone being so delusional. When I was buying my BMW the last thing that came to my mind was "status". First thing that jumped out was how basic the car was when it comes to luxury features (give its price) and how plain it looks .


That's exactly what he means - it may not seem like a status symbol to you, but to the majority of Americans it is.

To give you an example, at my workplace, people look at my 8 year old 3 series (worth about $12k), and make comments about process engineers making a lot of money. Never mind that a new Hyundai costs twice as much. BMWs, even an old 3 series, still have that image for most people in this country.


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## 2010drive (Jul 24, 2012)

boltjaM3s said:


> There have always been inexpensive BMW's, never changed the fact that they were status symbols then, doesn't change the fact that they're status symbols now.
> 
> *I really don't understand why people buy status symbols if they hate status.* If you want a pedestrian ride, no need to drive something that makes others green with envy. Go get an Audi. Or a Cadillac.
> 
> BJ


That's what you can't seem to get through your head. THEY'RE NOT STATUS SYMBOLS nor is any other car under 200K


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

2010drive said:


> That's what you can't seem to get through your head. THEY'RE NOT STATUS SYMBOLS nor is any other car under 200K


....says the man who owns a $50,000 German luxury car.

Do yourself a favor- go visit a bowling alley tomorrow. Park your car, look in the lot, look at the people who view 10 frames for $3 as an extravagance, then you tell _me _what is or isn't a status symbol.

Tell me again, who's the arrogant one? I hate when you people foster that stereotype, really is irksome.

BJ


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## UnderSteer (Jul 24, 2008)

So what is average car payment in the United States?

Edmonds keeps track of such things, and this is what they say:

In the United States, the average down payment for a car is $2,400, the average amount financed is $24,864 and the average monthly payment is $479, according to Edmunds.com. The most popular loan term is now a payment-stretching six years. If you're "upside down" on your old car loan (you still owe money on it after the trade-in), it's no longer a deal breaker. In these days of easy credit, lenders will roll the old balance into the new. Nor are down payments de rigueur; you can finance up to 100% of the manufacturer's suggested retail price, plus taxes, tags and fees.


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## justinnum1 (Nov 22, 2011)

This thread just keeps getting better and better. Truly entertaining.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

boltjaM3s said:


> My friends and I understand each other, all have the same values, same priorities. Make money, marry a trophy wife, make beautiful children, drive nice cars, buy nice houses, be discreet with the mistresses, retire, vacation, die.
> 
> The Hyundai does not fit in that lifestyle.
> 
> BJ


Speaking of being discreet with the mistresses, do you know BJ the ATS has a noise cancellation option, you can program it so when one of your mistresses accidentally calls in while both you and your wife are driving to the church, the 14 speakers will work together so your wife can only hear the exhaust note, while you chat away with the mistress "discreetly."


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

JoeFromPA said:


> Is it the barn?


No,

It's the VIP parking sticker on the gray car,

CA


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## shabadoo25 (Jul 7, 2011)

JoeFromPA said:


> Seacow - My comments were made in irony to the statements on here intimating that BMW should be bought as a status symbol.
> 
> Bugatti, Ferrari, Maybach, Rolls....those vehicles are status symbols. Undiluted.
> 
> ...


I've discovered something interesting as it relates to BMW and status.

If you are upper middle class and get a non-M 3 Series, your Camry driving neighbors will think you are "putting on airs" and throwing away money. If anything, it will make them think less of you.

To the upper class, like the guy who bought a $95k 7 Series from my dealer to put at his second house to match the identical car he has at his main house, the 3 Series is a car you get your 15-year-old daughter the day she gets her learner's permit. So you get no "status upgrade" from a guy like this by buying a 3.

The only group that really equates a 3 with status is 20 somethings not from really rich families. Having one might make the slightly too hot to be with you chick from the bar give you her number.

So at the end of the day, in most circumstances, there is no status to be really gained by getting a 3 series.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

boltjaM3s said:


> My friends and I understand each other, all have the same values, same priorities. Make money, marry a trophy wife, make beautiful children, drive nice cars, buy nice houses, be discreet with the mistresses, retire, vacation, die.
> 
> The Hyundai does not fit in that lifestyle.
> 
> BJ


Well I'm glad to hear that it was not one of your friends that caused this accident.

_



Earlier this month a 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO, estimated to be worth $40 million dollars, crashed into a Hyundai minivan on a highway near Blois, France. French authorities are investigating this priceless crash which occurred while the 250 GTO was on its way to participate at the Goodwood Festival of Speed. However shortfall of information is making investigation into the cause and effect of the accident difficult and time consuming. Both parties involved are mum and authorities are finding it difficult to put a price to the damages caused.

Click to expand...

_CA


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

shabadoo25 said:


> I've discovered something interesting as it relates to BMW and status.


You've discovered nothing except your ability to spin a good yarn. If BMW's weren't status symbols, they wouldn't sell any of them as they are too expensive for what they are.

And, again, you point out three groups of people who know the difference and ignore the 95% of the drivers who are green with envy because they can't afford one. The CEO of my company owns a private jet, doesn't care about my 3 Series. That's fine because he's not my target audience. The janitor, the college grad, the struggling middle manager, that's the target zone. The 3 Series isn't designed to impress the wealthy; it's intended to impress everyone else. And it does. Splendidly.

BJ


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

I think BJ needs to make his tax returns public here before he continues his campaign.


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

boltjaM3s said:


> That dude is quite serious. The average BMW driver is in his BMW for the status it brings, the average American sees the BMW roundel and believes a wealthy man is driving it.
> 
> You mentioned what motivated you to buy your BMW and that's admirable, no criticism from me. Similarly I expect to be admired and receive no criticism because of what motivated me- I bought the car for its status. The fact that it handles great and comes with a mythical sporty heritage is just an afterthought, a bonus. It's great that you'd buy a Hyundai if they made one to the F30 spec. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai as I'd lose my friends and have my family laugh at me.
> 
> ...


Only issue I have that you actually believe that an entry level 3 series is a status symbol. It is not, it's as common as an Acura TL and it carries very little "prestige" or "status" outside of its driving characteristic. A Cadillac CTS is more of a "status" car than a BMW 328i. You should have bought a Mercedes if "status" was what you were looking for.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

LegendsNeverDie said:


> Only issue I have that you actually believe that an entry level 3 series is a status symbol. It is not, it's as common as an Acura TL and it carries very little "prestige" or "status" outside of its driving characteristic. A Cadillac CTS is more of a "status" car than a BMW 328i. You should have bought a Mercedes if "status" was what you were looking for.


Not sure how much GM is paying you to shill the Cadillac in a BMW forum, but we're not that naive. Acura is a rebadged Honda, Cadillac a rebadged Buick. Talking status with someone who doesn't understand it isn't a good use of my time. Go buy your Cadillac already. We'll see how much attention it gets you.

BJ


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

captainaudio said:


> No,
> 
> It's the VIP parking sticker on the gray car,
> 
> CA


:rofl:

Seriously, a GTO? Holy flippin cow manure. What a car.


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## UnderSteer (Jul 24, 2008)

BJ has been on this and other forums for years posting about how rich he is and how jealous everyone is of his BMW (or Acura, or iPad, etc.)

I think the person he is trying to convince is himself because it is obvious that nobody else is buying into it.

In any case many people here enjoy his antics, the threads that he posts in tend to be very popular and he has become part of the culture of Bimmerfest so just go along with it and view it as entertainment,

Here are intersting "Blasts from the Past"



> The 335i Coupe says "I am into sports and performance and bought the nicest coupe on the market for that purpose."
> 
> *The 335i Sedan says "I couldn't afford a 5 Series so I'm squeezing my family into this small car to try to impress you, but it's not working."*
> 
> ...





> Exactly. The Family Sedan is a sellout to make money by pushing overpriced and underfeatured cars on gullible Americans looking for a badge. There is no such thing as a "Sports Sedan". It's made up. It's a way to make a dad feel "cool" about dragging his kids to soccer in a four door grocery getter. And, if anything, it de-focuses BMW from making "Sports Cars" like the Coupe and the Convertible. Like a "Sports Wagon" exists in real life. LOL. "Sports Sedan". Ha ha ha.
> 
> BJ


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## LegendsNeverDie (Feb 22, 2012)

UnderSteer said:


> BJ has been on this and other forums for years posting about how rich he is and how jealous everyone is of his BMW (or Acura, or iPad, etc.)
> 
> I think the person he is trying to convince is himself because it is obvious that nobody else is buying into it.
> 
> ...


Very entertaining.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

Anyone who is dependent upon their car to bring status to their life must live a pretty miserable existence.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Michael Schott said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Seriously, a GTO? Holy flippin cow manure. What a car.


It belongs to a friend of mine. I haven't ridden in it but hope to get a chance to.

Saturday was Ferrari Day at Lime Rock. The Ferrari Challenge series races were held.
http://www.ferrarichallenge.com/series/schedule
and there were Ferraris everywhere, literally hundreds of them. I think that if Google Earth took a picture of North West Connecticut on Saturday afternoon there would be a large red blotch in it.

The GTO obviously attracted a huge amount of attention.

CA


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

3ismagic# said:


> Anyone who is dependent upon their car to bring status to their life must live a pretty miserable existence.


....or it motivates them to succeed. And then they do. And then they are anything _but _miserable.

BJ


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

UnderSteer said:


> Here are intersting "Blasts from the Past"
> 
> The 335i Coupe says "I am into sports and performance and bought the nicest coupe on the market for that purpose."


 Funny, the coupe to me always said "I'm going to give up the practicality of two doors to look cool, but can't afford an M3"

I'd only buy a coupe if it looks better, like the E92 M3 vs E90.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Chris90 said:


> Funny, the coupe to me always said "I'm going to give up the practicality of two doors to look cool, but can't afford an M3"
> 
> I'd only buy a coupe if it looks better, like the E92 M3 vs E90.


Whether you like the looks of the coupe or convertible better is a matter of taste. I drove coupes for years as I rarely had rear seat passengers. I aways regarded them as 2 seaters with extra storage space and the ability to occaisionally carry 2 extra passengers. The exception being Ms. Audio's Jaguar which has a rear seat that is useless as a rear seat and is essentially a nicely upholstered package shelf.

CA


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## justinnum1 (Nov 22, 2011)

UnderSteer said:


> BJ has been on this and other forums for years posting about how rich he is and how jealous everyone is of his BMW (or Acura, or iPad, etc.)
> 
> I think the person he is trying to convince is himself because it is obvious that nobody else is buying into it.
> 
> ...


Complete and total ownage. :rofl:


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

captainaudio said:


> It belongs to a friend of mine. I haven't ridden in it but hope to get a chance to.
> 
> Saturday was Ferrari Day at Lime Rock. The Ferrari Challenge series races were held.
> http://www.ferrarichallenge.com/series/schedule
> ...


What is the average Ferrari owner like, as long as we are talking stereotypes?


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

justinnum1 said:


> Complete and total ownage.


That was before I ever owned a Sedan. Back then, I had the Convertible and couldn't believe the status is brought me, the wide-eyed stares, people asking to pose for photos with it. But then I got the E90 and realized that the status was still there, just as strong.

God bless the BMW roundel.

BJ


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

beden1 said:


> What is the average Ferrari owner like, as long as we are talking stereotypes?


An ///M5 owner with a stronger net worth and better taste.

BJ


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

beden1 said:


> What is the average Ferrari owner like, as long as we are talking stereotypes?


There are a number of them in the Lime Rock Drivers Club and a number of them own several Ferraris. One of them has two Enzos and another has a collection of Ferrari Formula 1 cars.










They are a very nice bunch of people, very down to earth and very humble. I frequently bring guests to club events (including several members here) and they are alway treated with respect and made to feel welcome. There is a great sense of comraderie within the club regardless of what car you show up in or what your driving skill is.

A perfect example is Skip Barber. Skip has several Ferraris in his collection and he is always buying and selling them (the one pictured below went for 4.3 million at the Pebble Beach Auction last year). Skip is a very nice guy and is very humble and very approachable.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

boltjaM3s said:


> BJ is quiet because he's the only one fueling this thread and so when he stops participating it will fade away like the awful car it is trying to discuss.
> 
> Cadillac. Blech.
> 
> BJ


Have you found the Caddy-sized Roundle to be velcroed on your F30 steering wheel?


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

boltjaM3s said:


> BJ is quiet because *he's the only one fueling this thread* and so when he stops participating it will fade away like the awful car it is trying to discuss.
> 
> Cadillac. Blech.
> 
> BJ


Well it may be a thankless job but SOMEBODY has to do it.

CA


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

In this ATS first drive video below the car recorded over 1.0G a few times on the second run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54WMaZjfyRw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This seems pretty high, any comments from the pros?


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

boltjaM3s said:


> BJ is quiet because he's the only one fueling this thread and so when he stops participating it will fade away like the awful car it is trying to discuss.
> 
> Cadillac. Blech.
> 
> BJ


I was out walking my dog and my neighbor stopped to say hello in her new BMW 328i sedan Luxury model in silver. I asked her what happened to her Mercedes S550, and she said that she decided to get something more practical since her husband died 2 years ago. She also said that the Mercedes was too large for her and she felt kinda funny driving something so luxurious. She said that she was on the fence about making the switch until she saw me in my silver BMW that I brought down about a month ago.

BJ's age curve just went up a bit since she is about 65 years old. But, I guess my trend setting days are still alive and well. :thumbup:


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## JoeFromPA (Jan 21, 2007)

captainaudio said:


> They understand that they are selling a mass market vehicle that most owners are using for basic transportation and that this market is looking for a reasonable balance between handling and comfort but they are definitely not looking to design a car with less steering feedback.


I mean no offense but that last statement is at odds with itself.

If they are selling a mass market vehicle that most owners are using for basic transportation, then they are most likely designing a car with less steering feedback than they would if they looked at the car as catering to people who are looking for great steering feel.

When you go mass-market and basic transportation, you dial out feedback in the steering.

Maybe you meant that they are trying to retain enough steering feedback to be respected as the ultimate driving machine. I can understand that, but it still would indicate they are dialing it out as much as possible to be seen as luxury by the mass market while keeping enough to please the sport crowd.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

JoeFromPA said:


> I mean no offense but that last statement is at odds with itself.
> 
> If they are selling a mass market vehicle that most owners are using for basic transportation, then they are most likely designing a car with less steering feedback than they would if they looked at the car as catering to people who are looking for great steering feel.
> 
> ...


Next step will be those real cushy seats that were signature Cadillac from years past!


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

captainaudio said:


> I have been to a few BMW focus groups and according to them they are not trying to get steering with less feedback. BMW understands that the perception of the brand as "The Ultimate Driving Machine" is very important to their image and to their market. From discussions I have had with them they are very aware of the Run Flat Tire issue and the issues that people had with "Pothole Explosions" and harsh ride and have worked to rectify the harsh ride issue and still retain the "fun to drive" factor.


OK, electric steering is a very new issue and I can't blame them for going to focus groups to find out what people think and understand where they are at. But run-flats?

Any company that so pigheadedly refuses to give choices to customers is nothing but arrogant. At this point, what's the point of focus groups if you don't have intention to listen? By giving choices to customers I mean engineer space for a spare and charge idiots like myself through the nose for the option of regular tires + spare. Everybody smarter than me will pick run-flats and use space for spare as an extra container in the trunk. Everybody wins. It's not THAT hard, is it? Well, it is - when you are so arrogant to think that you cannot make a bad decision no matter what ...

I'm not interested anymore in having a do-all car that can be daily driver and go on a track, I'm about to get one for each mission. You better believe that Cadillac is going to get my money if they start selling ATS with a 2 liter diesel engine ESPECIALLY if BMWNA arrogantly decides that US doesn't need manual transmission with diesel engine. Just normal tires + spare will make me think hard to skip BMW and go for ATS this time around if they offer a diesel.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Here is one more video, driven by one of the Caddy performance engineers, he reached 1.1 G a few times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8R_qFokB7k&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## voip-ninja (Mar 22, 2012)

It's harder than you think to engineer and build two versions of the car, one with a spare and one without. Spare tire/wheel weigh upwards of 80 lbs, so it's not a trivial amount of weight to eliminate from the vehicle which is almost definitely why BMW have moved in that direction.

It's understandable not to like the run-flats, but it's not like you can't put regular tires on the car, buy a spare wheel/tire and throw it in the trunk.

If BMW offered the full sized spare as an "option" for people like yourself then they would have to have designed the car from the ground up to have it, whether or not it was being included with most of the cars they sold.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

Mark K said:


> Any company that so pigheadedly refuses to give choices to customers is nothing but arrogant. At this point, what's the point of focus groups if you don't have intention to listen?


You answered your own question.

The focus groups were asked, BMW listened, and the F30 is the result of that listening. The fact that 3 Series was designed with a softer ride, more luxurious cabin, tech toys, luxury packages, and convenient tires speaks volumes- that's what the core customer wants.

I'm not sure why these changes are a surprise to anyone. They started with the E46, continued with the E90, and are cemented with the F30. Why it takes some people 15 years to figure out that the 3 Series is a German luxury car is a complete mystery. Just because some performance parts magazines and two enthusiast websites talk about this stuff doesn't mean it's true. It just sells a lot of magazines.

If you want a sports car, buy a sports car. If you hate status, stop buying status-symbols. It's simple, really.

BJ


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

voip-ninja said:


> It's understandable not to like the run-flats, but it's not like you can't put regular tires on the car, buy a spare wheel/tire and throw it in the trunk.


I'm already doing that. The problem is I really don't need a spare in the trunk to fool around my local twisty roads, I'll just call a tow. When I DO need a spare is for a road trip but in that case I also need room in a trunk for luggage.



> If BMW offered the full sized spare as an "option" for people like yourself then they would have to have designed the car from the ground up to have it, whether or not it was being included with most of the cars they sold.


That's exactly what I meant with my rant. It's not like they didn't know about run-flat hate when they started designing F30 - they just chose not to care. Again, what's wrong with a lot of additional space in the trunk for smart people who are OK with run-flats paid for by idiots like myself who want full-size spare and normal tires?


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## voip-ninja (Mar 22, 2012)

I think that you overestimate the percentage of run-flat haters out there. While it might seem that the overwhelming majority of people who frequent these forums hate them, the general population of BMW owners could probably care less and run-flats are actually desired on luxury cars by many consumers because they would rather go 50mph to their destination with a run-flat tire then sit stranded on the road-side trying to change a tire and get their hands dirty or wait for AAA to bail them out.

I bet if you did a sweeping poll of BMW owners you would find that more people WANT run-flat tires than despise them. In a perfect world BMW would offer an opt-out option for enthusiasts/purists, but, why stop there, they would be pressured to offer hydraulic steering for those that still want it, etc.

Offering two option choices on a vehicle that affect the construction to a great degree would typically cost the manufacturer millions in tool/die/design costs not to mention increasing the difficulty of manufacturing.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

BJ, I thought you wanted this thread to die by not coming in here.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

dtc100 said:


> BJ, I thought you wanted this thread to die by not coming in here.


Sometimes someone posts something so epically comical that I can't resist. Besides, the conversation is drifting away from the Fleetwood Brougham so its becoming less of a waste of time.

BJ


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Ok let me bring it back then. As I recall C&D tested an F30 335i at 0.89 G only, in part due to the all season tires. But 1.1 G is still hard to reach even with performance tires.

It will be interesting to see the head to head comparos.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

voip-ninja said:


> I think that you overestimate the percentage of run-flat haters out there. While it might seem that the overwhelming majority of people who frequent these forums hate them, the general population of BMW owners could probably care less and run-flats are actually desired on luxury cars by many consumers because they would rather go 50mph to their destination with a run-flat tire then sit stranded on the road-side trying to change a tire and get their hands dirty or wait for AAA to bail them out.
> 
> I bet if you did a sweeping poll of BMW owners you would find that more people WANT run-flat tires than despise them. In a perfect world BMW would offer an opt-out option for enthusiasts/purists, but, why stop there, they would be pressured to offer hydraulic steering for those that still want it, etc.
> 
> Offering two option choices on a vehicle that affect the construction to a great degree would typically cost the manufacturer millions in tool/die/design costs not to mention increasing the difficulty of manufacturing.


The RFT issue is very dependent on the condition of the roads you drive on and whether or not you have the sport suspension. I did not have an issue with my 2007 335i in South Florida and found the same car to be virtually undriveable in NYC with the OEM RFTs and the stock shocks.

I have heard that the problem was not as bad on the newer models and so far the early buyers of the F30 don't seem to be complaining. The 7 has RFTs and I don't have an issue with them at all. If I were on the market for an F30 I would definitely go for the adaptive suspension.

I think RFTs are here to stay and I think they are a great idea I just was not happy with the implementation of RFTs on my 335i

CA


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Ok the C&D used an F30 328i in the comparison, it was 0.87g.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

voip-ninja said:


> I think that you overestimate the percentage of run-flat haters out there.


True. What I really want is a spare tire, too bad that, according to BMW's infinite wisdom, RFT = no spare. How did they get to that brilliant equation we'll probably never know. Now, how many people would actually want a spare tire, run-flats or not? I'm pretty sure the number isn't insignificant. 4 permutations of choice:

- run flats with spare
- run flats without spare
- go flat with spare
- go flat without spare

All 4 options available with simple engineered trunk space. It's not like they don't know how to do it - everybody, BMW included, has been doing it for probably close to 60 years.


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## magbarn (Jan 28, 2003)

Mark K said:


> ..... *Just normal tires + spare* will make me think hard to skip BMW and go for ATS this time around if they offer a diesel.


You do realize the higher end ATS (turbo and 3.6 with magna ride) are coming with RF tires with no choice of regular tires. Hilarious to read the cadillac forums filled with quotes from BMW forums bitching about our RF tires! :rofl:


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## jlukja (Jun 20, 2012)

Mark K said:


> True. What I really want is a spare tire, too bad that, according to BMW's infinite wisdom, RFT = no spare. How did they get to that brilliant equation we'll probably never know. Now, how many people would actually want a spare tire, run-flats or not? I'm pretty sure the number isn't insignificant. 4 permutations of choice:
> 
> - run flats with spare
> - run flats without spare
> ...


infinite wisdom = an engineering decision based on weight savings, weight balance, and trunk space.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

magbarn said:


> You do realize the higher end ATS (turbo and 3.6 with magna ride) are coming with RF tires with no choice of regular tires. Hilarious to read the cadillac forums filled with quotes from BMW forums bitching about our RF tires! :rofl:


Even the lower ATS trims do not come with a spare, only a repair kit.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

voip-ninja said:


> It's harder than you think to engineer and build two versions of the car, one with a spare and one without. Spare tire/wheel weigh upwards of 80 lbs, so it's not a trivial amount of weight to eliminate from the vehicle which is almost definitely why BMW have moved in that direction.


+1 I'm sure BMW has carefully weighed the pros and cons of run flats many times. The cars would be even more bloated in weight if they had a spare. I think it was when the E90 came out they were touting that the engine was lighter than the previous gen, allowing them to hold the weight on the car - that was only possible cause they ditched the spare.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

Chris90 said:


> +1 I'm sure BMW has carefully weighed the pros and cons of run flats many times. The cars would be even more bloated in weight if they had a spare. I think it was when the E90 came out they were touting that the engine was lighter than the previous gen, allowing them to hold the weight on the car - that was only possible cause they ditched the spare.












Good lord, you performance enthusiasts are a narrow-minded group.

Meet Mrs. Three Series. She ain't changing no tire. You guys need a serious dose of reality. "Weight"? "Bloat"? BMW got rid of the spare tire because it's a luxury car, and luxury car owners don't change their own tires. If the get a flat, they need a phone, not a tire.

BMW has given you soooooooo many clues, you'd think you'd have figured it out by now. Hello. The 3 Series is a luxury car now. You need some sport, go be enthusiastic about the 1 Series. The reason everything feels wrong about the 3 Series to you is because you are driving the wrong car.

BJ


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

BJ, BMW continues to call itself the ultimate driving machine, not the ultimate luxury machine.

I know you have been driving this point through over and over again, that BMW is flat out lying, but you can't blame some of the BMW drivers for wanting to believe some of the things BMW is telling them.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

boltjaM3s said:


> Good lord, you performance enthusiasts are a narrow-minded group.
> 
> Meet Mrs. Three Series. She ain't changing no tire. You guys need a serious dose of reality. "Weight"? "Bloat"? BMW got rid of the spare tire because it's a luxury car, and luxury car owners don't change their own tires. If the get a flat, they need a phone, not a tire.
> 
> ...


I think the run flats have more to do with ergonomic design and cost cuttting more than anything. Our '08 535xi has a spare and non run flat tires. I would not feel comfortable, nor would I let my wife take an extended highway trip if her car did not have a spare, even if she looked like her.

And, as far as changing a flat tire...that's what AAA is for! I would not buy a car for my wife that did not have a spare tire. Her '01 740il had run flat tires and a spare tire. Our daughter's 2011 Audi S4 has a spare tire.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

boltjaM3s said:


> Good lord, you performance enthusiasts are a narrow-minded group.
> 
> Meet Mrs. Three Series. She ain't changing no tire. You guys need a serious dose of reality. "Weight"? "Bloat"? BMW got rid of the spare tire because it's a luxury car, and luxury car owners don't change their own tires. If the get a flat, they need a phone, not a tire.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, it's not a performance sedan anymore, it's a luxury car with a performance marketing campaign. For people who want to project a performance image rather than have actual performance.

The thing is, the competition is even further along in this direction, so it's not like there are better alternatives to what BMW is offering. It's why I'm even still considering one. To get a better driver's car, I'd have to buy a P-car, and they're not practical as daily drivers.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

dtc100 said:


> BJ, BMW continues to call itself the ultimate driving machine, not the ultimate luxury machine.
> 
> I know you have been driving this point through over and over again, that BMW is flat out lying, but you can't blame some of the BMW drivers for wanting to believe some of the things BMW is telling them.


Whoa, don't get me wrong: With the right configuration it _is_ the Ultimate Driving Machine. It's just that 90% of what the 3 Series offers does not pertain to that type of spirited driving anymore.

Where I get miffed is when people get all over BMW's ass because of the softer suspensions, 4 cylinder engines, comfy cabins, techy features, unnecessary weight, and on and on.

BMW isn't lying. It's smartly using 10% of its vehicles to make the other 90% look sportier. Just that not everyone got the memo. If you want the Ultimate Driving Machine, go buy an M3. Taking a stock F30 and trying to make it into an E36 ain't gonna fly and I'm tired of hearing all the whining about it. It's a great car. It should be celebrated.

BJ


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

Chris90 said:


> I agree with you, it's not a performance sedan anymore, it's a luxury car with a performance marketing campaign. For people who want to project a performance image rather than have actual performance.
> 
> The thing is, the competition is even further along in this direction, so it's not like there are better alternatives to what BMW is offering. It's why I'm even still considering one. To get a better driver's car, I'd have to buy a P-car, and they're not practical as daily drivers.


Thank you for that.

Question for you......can't the typical 3 Series performance enthusiast loyalist get a 135i and be happy with that? It's lighter, tighter, more powerful, etc?

BJ


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Chris90 said:


> I agree with you, it's not a performance sedan anymore, it's a luxury car with a performance marketing campaign. For people who want to project a performance image rather than have actual performance.
> 
> The thing is, the competition is even further along in this direction, so it's not like there are better alternatives to what BMW is offering. It's why I'm even still considering one. To get a better driver's car, I'd have to buy a P-car, and they're not practical as daily drivers.


Maybe you have come to the right thread, maybe the ATS is the ticket.

The 1 series is not a practical car either.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2010)

magbarn said:


> You do realize the higher end ATS (turbo and 3.6 with magna ride) are coming with RF tires with no choice of regular tires. Hilarious to read the cadillac forums filled with quotes from BMW forums bitching about our RF tires! :rofl:


Ooops, didn't realize that. OK, then, VW it is.

By the way, do you have a link to the ATS forum thread with quotes from BMW forum bitching about RFTs? I'd love to read that! Thanks.


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

Mark K said:


> Ooops, didn't realize that. OK, then, VW it is.
> 
> By the way, do you have a link to the ATS forum thread with quotes from BMW forum bitching about RFTs? I'd love to read that! Thanks.


BJ won't address issues like run flat tires because his employers (BMW) would not like it! They just want everyone to think everything is great in wonderland.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

boltjaM3s said:


> Good lord, you performance enthusiasts are a narrow-minded group.
> 
> Meet Mrs. Three Series. She ain't changing no tire. You guys need a serious dose of reality. "Weight"? "Bloat"? BMW got rid of the spare tire because it's a luxury car, and luxury car owners don't change their own tires. If the get a flat, they need a phone, not a tire.
> 
> ...


Having a spare on board has nothing to do with changing your own tire. AAA and BMW assist and the like have been changing tires for years. I can't ever remember an incident where I had to change my own tire. I always called AAA or some other roafdside assist service and they showed up and changed it, Now that virtually everyone has a cell phone there shoud never be a need to change your own tire,

CA


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

captainaudio said:


> Having a spare on board has nothing to do with changing your own tire. AAA and BMW assist and the like have been changing tires for years. I can't ever remember an incident where I had to change my own tire. I always called AAA or some other roafdside assist service and they showed up and changed it, Now that virtually everyone has a cell phone there shoud never be a need to change your own tire,
> 
> CA


Unless there is no spare tire to change and it needs to be ordered when you're someplace like bofunk, GA.


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

captainaudio said:


> Having a spare on board has nothing to do with changing your own tire. AAA and BMW assist and the like have been changing tires for years. I can't ever remember an incident where I had to change my own tire. I always called AAA or some other roafdside assist service and they showed up and changed it, Now that virtually everyone has a cell phone there shoud never be a need to change your own tire,
> 
> CA


You took the words out of my mouth. +1
RFT was made to help 50/50 weight distribution (no spare and no jack) and sell $300 pieces of crap RFT every 20,000 miles


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## ProRail (May 31, 2006)

windsor027 said:


> Damn BJ stop displaying that luxury F30 style. You are going to make me say the Cadillac looks much better...


There's no accounting for taste.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> Having a spare on board has nothing to do with changing your own tire. AAA and BMW assist and the like have been changing tires for years. I can't ever remember an incident where I had to change my own tire. I always called AAA or some other roafdside assist service and they showed up and changed it, Now that virtually everyone has a cell phone there shoud never be a need to change your own tire,
> 
> CA


It's a moot point since the car ships with run-flats. There's no need to get your hands dirty, no need for roadside assistance. You just drive yourself to get it replaced. That's the point. No 3 Series buyer would prefer old technology to save a few pounds and have to wait for a truck to come, change the thing, get the car dirty. It's just another (yawn) whine from those who continue to buy the wrong car.

BJ


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

boltjaM3s said:


> It's a moot point since the car ships with run-flats. There's no need to get your hands dirty, no need for roadside assistance. You just drive yourself to get it replaced. That's the point. No 3 Series buyer would prefer old technology to save a few pounds and have to wait for a truck to come, change the thing, get the car dirty. It's just another (yawn) whine from those who continue to buy the wrong car.
> 
> BJ


Between waiting for the AAA to come and do the work at the curb side, then tip the guy like you tip a doorman, and driving the next 50 miles with a flat RFT like a grandma in a Cadillac, forever tarnishing your Bimmer's image...

It is a toss up I think.


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## 3ismagic# (Mar 17, 2011)

My friend's dad has worked for GM for 43 years. He drove the very first ATS of the assembly line.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

JoeFromPA said:


> I mean no offense but that last statement is at odds with itself.
> 
> If they are selling a mass market vehicle that most owners are using for basic transportation, then they are most likely designing a car with less steering feedback than they would if they looked at the car as catering to people who are looking for great steering feel.
> 
> ...


You seem to be under the impression that performance and refinement are mutually exclusive. This is simply not the case. I have never heard anyone complain that BMWs had too much steering feedback. I have heard a lot of complaints about the harsh ride and I was one of the most vocal complainers myself. It is possible to design a car that has good steering feel, good driving dynamics and a ride that does not shake the filling out of your teeth. I have two cars that fit that description and one of them is a BMW.

RFTs and electric steering are both technologies that will eventually be in all cars. Both require addtional development and refinement but they are here to stay.

BMW is very aware that their "edge" has always been the fact that they were more of a drivers car than the competition and they have no intention of losing that edge.

One thing I have found at the BMW sponsored events that I have participated in is that the "47 year old middle managers and librarians" that drive these cars take great pride in the way the cars drive. At one event Ms. Audio kept kicking me under the table to get me to shut up because there was one 60 plus year old woman who was about to hit me over the head with her LV purse because I was complaining about the harsh ride of my 335i.

What BMW is going for is what has traditionally called a GT or Grand Touring car, GTs traditionally combined high performance with luxury and creature comforts.

IMO if you can't tell the difference in the way a BMW and a Honda drive then buy a Honda. Accords are very nice cars, drive very well and offer all of the same luxury features that BMW does. I recently went car shopping with my sister. She test drove an Accord, a Camry, a Hyundai and a 328. She did not like the looks of the Hyundai, did not like the way the Camry drove and did not feel that the 3 Series felt any better than to her than the Accord. Based on that I told her to get tha Accord which she did and she loves it. It has a nice leather interior, nav, bluetooth, satellite radio and all of the same stuff I have in the 335 and is a very nice car.

If you are buying for the badge to impress people the chances are the only person you are going to impress is yourself.

CA


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

boltjaM3s said:


> Thank you for that.
> 
> Question for you......can't the typical 3 Series performance enthusiast loyalist get a 135i and be happy with that? It's lighter, tighter, more powerful, etc?
> 
> BJ


The 135i is just the same car with shorter wheelbase. The enthusiast should just get an M3, and I probably would if they weren't $65k.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

panerai7 said:


> Yeah that always makes me laugh, 15k oil changes. Maybe on a rented car but not if you plan to own it.


Has there any proof that 15k oil change was bad for the car?


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Shouldn't this thread be in the "General Automotive" Forum?

:dunno:


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## panerai7 (Jan 7, 2003)

dtc100 said:


> Has there any proof that 15k oil change was bad for the car?


I just personally don't believe in 15k oil change intervals.
First oil change at 1k-1500 miles and then 7500 mile intervals with synthetic Mobil1.


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## dtc100 (Jan 24, 2011)

Jon Shafer said:


> Shouldn't this thread be in the "General Automotive" Forum?
> 
> :dunno:


I suggest we combine the several threads with the original ATS v. 3 series thread. The original one is buried somewhere here, but it was very much an F30 forum thread.


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## boltjaM3s (Nov 12, 2009)

dtc100 said:


> I suggest we combine the several threads with the original ATS v. 3 series thread. The original one is buried somewhere here, but it was very much an F30 forum thread.


I disagree. I think both Cadillac threads were amusing and ran their course and should be merged and placed in the General Automotive forum where they belong.

It's a BMW forum focused on the new F30. Don't need any talk of other brands with so much to talk about when our new rides hop off the boat.

BJ


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

panerai7 said:


> I just personally don't believe in 15k oil change intervals.
> First oil change at 1k-1500 miles and then 7500 mile intervals with synthetic Mobil1.


The majority of new BMWs are leased. Folks leasing aren't following your strict schedule. Apparently the manufacturer suggested protocol is working...


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

dtc100 said:


> Has there any proof that 15k oil change was bad for the car?


If it's full synthetic, not a blend or mineral oil, it should be fine, according to my wife who used to work in oil R&D for Mobil.

Not sure if BMW uses full synthetic, the Castrol stuff?


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

boltjaM3s said:


> I disagree. I think both Cadillac threads were amusing and ran their course and should be merged and placed in the General Automotive forum where they belong.
> 
> It's a BMW forum focused on the new F30. Don't need any talk of other brands with so much to talk about when our new rides hop off the boat.
> 
> BJ


If it's specifically F30 vs ATS, I think it belongs in this forum. Every car forum has this kind of thread. Nobody reads the general automotive forum either, you might as well delete the thread as put it in there. 

PS Oops, it was already moved. Oh well, bye-bye thread.


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## Jon Shafer (Dec 15, 2001)

Chris90 said:


> If it's specifically F30 vs ATS, I think it belongs in this forum. Every car forum has this kind of thread. Nobody reads the general automotive forum either, you might as well delete the thread as put it in there.
> 
> PS Oops, it was already moved. Oh well, bye-bye thread.


I left another one in the F30 forum -- at least it was entitled "First 3 Series versus ATS Comparison Test"...


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Jon Shafer said:


> I left one in the F30 forum -- one at least entitled "First 3 Series versus ATS Comparison Test"...


Yeah, that's more appropriate anyway.


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## Dave 330i (Jan 4, 2002)

panerai7 said:


> I just personally don't believe in 15k oil change intervals.
> First oil change at 1k-1500 miles and then 7500 mile intervals with synthetic Mobil1.


You are winging the change interval just like everyone else. I used to change my Mobil 1 every 5K miles, but now every 10K miles because I'm lazier now. Reason? 5K and 10K intervals are easy to keep track. :thumbup:


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## dseag2 (Dec 19, 2006)

boltjaM3s said:


> Wow, one thread with Cadillac and Ford owners lobbying for their rides. How did we get so lucky. Listen, if you two love your American cars, that's great, no worries. But if you're going to come in here and seek respect from BMW owners, LOL, think again.
> 
> GM makes cheap Camry competitors. Ford makes trucks. BMW makes luxury cars.
> 
> ...


Great to see you are here now stirring things up instead of on the Acura boards with your TL with "non orange" interior. I'm no longer an Acura owner either, but you are hard to forget. I must admit that I long for the bygone days when you and 1SickLex went round and round about Acura not being a viable luxury brand. I guess Cadillac now fits into that category as well?


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## AutoUnion (Apr 11, 2005)

dseag2 said:


> Great to see you are here now stirring things up instead of on the Acura boards with your TL with "non orange" interior. I'm no longer an Acura owner either, but you are hard to forget. I must admit that I long for the bygone days when you and 1SickLex went round and round about Acura not being a viable luxury brand. I guess Cadillac now fits into that category as well?


omg, 1sick and BJ together? That must have been quite the ****show


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## dseag2 (Dec 19, 2006)

AutoUnion said:


> omg, 1sick and BJ together? That must have been quite the ****show


You got THAT right! I needed popcorn.:rofl:


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## Jats (Jan 11, 2014)

Hey stumbled on here. First of all always loved Bimmers. Refined, sexy and the car that always said I've stepped up. Fast fwd. 3 months ago driving a beat up cavalier. My buddy has a 335 coupe. I crash and am now in need of a new car.
First of all where I live there is no advertising of what a new BMW costs and I work in auto advertising. I liked the new CLA, but sold out and bare bones unless you pay big bucks. Plus lease terms were not flexible. A female co worker said it reminded me of a Hyundai Elantra.

I look in my Parkade. 17 bmws that I count on my way to the parking stall. I start looking. The ATS was AWD and had features I didn't know existed. My grandfather had a Cadillac in the 70's an I've always loved the brand. I drove an absolute POS before so any new car is an improvement. Saying this I am making believers out of people who said don't buy that. I'd love the 8 speed gearbox , but I love the red leather, carbon fibre trim and the fact that in Calgary the domestic car is more rare. Drives like a dream and is less common here. Again love BMW but couldn't buy both. I have crazy features like HUD, lane sensor, adaptive cruise, remote start, free maintenance for my lease term. It was an easy choice......


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