# Drove 4000 miles, saw literally 1 Tesla



## fastharper (Jan 19, 2017)

All these Tesla threads... Guys, a reality check. There is no way in the universe we live in that electric cars are going to take over any time in the next 20 years. I think people living in urban bubbles see more EVs around them and extrapolate this to the wider world, which is wrong.

I just drove across New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Illinois, Missouri, Oklahoma, and saw 1 Tesla (a Model X) in the middle of a city.

The most common cars? Pickup trucks. Ford Explorers. Honda CRV. Prius. Cheap piece of sh*it cars.

I saw a handful of BMWs and Mercs. No Porsches.

The worst drivers? Lifted pickups.

Until such time as battery tech changes that people can drive 400 miles, charge in 2 minutes within 30 miles of any location, as conveniently as gasoline, in a car that costs $25K... the EV revolution is ... just... not... going... to... happen.

When the day comes that I drive 4000 miles and see Teslas and EVs left and right, then sure, we can start talking about the end of the ICE. Until then, dinosaurs rule. So stop with the end-of-the-ICE nonsense.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Yeah, those in the north east and California don't realize how different the rest of the country is.

A usually see a couple of Tesla's a day, even here in Bubbaville. I saw one Christmas Day, tied up to a charger in an office/retail complex. 

I had to endure sitting next to a Tesla cult member at a wedding reception. He was telling me how easy it was to take a long trip in a Tesla, using the app to find a charging station, and it only takes a couple of hours to charge. Yeah, right. I told him I refuel anywhere I want, every 450 miles, in about twelve minutes, and six of those minutes are me taking a piss and grabbing some Hostess Ding Dong's for the road. I then told him that 100k miles of my gas is still less than the cost of his upcoming battery replacement.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

Off topic. Moved to General Automotive forum.


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## kozlio (Mar 14, 2018)

fastharper said:


> All these Tesla threads... Guys, a reality check. There is no way in the universe we live in that electric cars are going to take over any time in the next 20 years. I think people living in urban bubbles see more EVs around them and extrapolate this to the wider world, which is wrong.
> 
> I just drove across New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Illinois, Missouri, Oklahoma, and saw 1 Tesla (a Model X) in the middle of a city.
> 
> ...


Maybe not in that area of the USA, and not now. Agreed, the affordable variant of the EV cars doesn't have the range or spread of the recharge network to compete with the older and established technology.
I live elsewhere, in the greater Toronto area, and there isn't a day i dont see an ev car, either on the hwy or in town.
Looking outside my work office, there is one parked beside a Chevy. We also have paid chargers at work. 
Most millennials i know are considering an ev as their next car. Government tax credits for such vehicles are being phased out in both usa and Canada. So they're expensive. 
Will take a while for sure for an overhaul


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

Autoputzer said:


> A usually see a couple of Tesla's a day, even here in Bubbaville. I saw one Christmas Day, tied up to a charger in an office/retail complex.


We've been in Central and South Florida most of this month. At the shopping malls in both places, there have been about 6 spaces with none open for charging. Over the couple of thousand miles so far, I would put my sightings at just under 2 dozen.

In other news, my own brother is hanging up the keys to his Merc for a Tesla. He's in S. Florida as well.

As for the evolution of the automotive platform, I would support a modular approach to the vehicle with the power train developed by the company who does it best, the consumer-selected suspension type by another, and the sheet metal/appearance by yet others. We already see a lot of cross-manufacturer development like this, so it seems like a natural evolution. This point of evolution to take place right before no one cares what the thing looks like as long as it propels them. The youth of today will drive this by their demand, I expect.

Having multiple companies develop electric drive trains seems like a huge waste of resources. Everyone needs the core, so the very best should rise out of that demand. The rest is just preference and window dressings.


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## fastharper (Jan 19, 2017)

Owners of luxury cars that can afford to drop $100K for a 2nd or 3rd car that can't do road trips is a niche market.

I drive around the city and see tens of thousands of cars parked on the street; can't replace those with EVs. Nowhere to charge them.

My point is, when the common masses of people choose to buy EVs, then that's the benchmark.


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## Closem Joe (Sep 12, 2015)

+1


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

fastharper said:


> Owners of luxury cars that can afford to drop $100K for a 2nd or 3rd car that can't do road trips is a niche market.
> 
> I drive around the city and see tens of thousands of cars parked on the street; can't replace those with EVs. Nowhere to charge them.
> 
> My point is, when the common masses of people choose to buy EVs, then that's the benchmark.


A relative of mine has done extremely well in life, and just bought a Tesla. He's fortunate that his beach house is only about 200 miles from his city house. So, he has charging stations at both houses, and can go from his city house to his beach house on a single charge. So... obviously... electric cars are perfectly practical for everybody! Whoopie! Everybody has a beach house within 200 miles of their city house... right?


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

fastharper said:


> Owners of luxury cars that can afford to drop $100K for a 2nd or 3rd car that can't do road trips is a niche market.
> 
> I drive around the city and see tens of thousands of cars parked on the street; can't replace those with EVs. Nowhere to charge them.
> 
> My point is, when the common masses of people choose to buy EVs, then that's the benchmark.


Infrastructure is in development and will grow based on demand which is growing quickly. Try to remember 5 years ago. At that time even in LA and SF the EV infrastructure was minimal. To be fair the Bay Area was more developed. Now it's easy to charge an EV. Even in Detroit where I live many new retail and commercial locations were built with EV charging in mind. Tesla lists 5-6 charging stations here as well.

As far as road trips, if you look at a newer Tesla Supercharger location map, in many parts of the country these are viable. I could drive from Detroit to Miami without issue. I'm sure there are areas that are not as well equipped like the Dakota's, Nebraska and Montana but most of the country is well covered.


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## jjadler (Dec 27, 2018)

I live in Northern Illinois and see a handful of Teslas here and there. I think that has a lot to do with being close to Chicago and they're more popular in Metropolitan areas, whereas when I drive out to the country I don't think I've even seen one. Although I read an article recently stating that the resale values of Teslas is far higher than resale values of other electric vehicles and also gas powered vehicles. This could be a factor in future Tesla purchases when prices become more affordable for the average American. Autolist conducts the study here: https://www.autolist.com/news-and-analysis/tesla-model-x-model-s-depreciation


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

PropellerHead said:


> We've been in Central and South Florida most of this month. At the shopping malls in both places, there have been about 6 spaces with none open for charging. Over the couple of thousand miles so far, I would put my sightings at just under 2 dozen.


More travel within S. Florida today. I can recall around 7 or 8 Teslas and a couple other EVs. One I cannot recall. I had no idea the manufacturer was even doing EVs. Kia? Maybe? Or Hyundai? I dunno. It wasn't a Volt. Those have been around awhile.

Anyway, while I was looking around for directions on Google maps, I was surprised to see a charging station noted within. I included a snip here.


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## pocholin (Aug 3, 2014)

In October I drove from Chicago to Houston (2,500 miles round trip) and I noticed the same, no Teslas on the open road. I love the idea of owning an electric vehicle...one day, when I can drive 400-500 miles in a single charge and only have to wait no more than 30 minutes for a full charge, until then I'll keep using ICE vehicles.


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## Matthew_H (Oct 9, 2017)

I flew down to California 2 weeks ago to visit family in San Diego, I normally land at LAX and get a rental car because it’s a lot cheaper and I don’t mind the 2.5 hour drive to San Diego. I saw A LOT of Tesla cars. I saw stuck on the freeway in typical LA traffic and 3 were in plain sight. I also saw a Maserati Quattroporte in its natural habitat (on a flatbed) and even a Fisker Karma!! 

I drove down from my place here in Canada all the way to Arizona 3 months ago and the most common car I saw was the Mini. But I believe there was some convention going on because they all had random plates. There was just a swarm of them travelling in groups. We stopped at some rural New Mexico town overnight and the small hotel we stayed at, there were 7 Minis parked. 3 of which had Canadian plates and one had New York plates. No Tesla’s during the trip tho apart from the 2 in Arizona. 

In Arizona itself the area we were at (Scottsdale) had a lot of BMWs. I took mine to the dealer there for oil change and they were amazed that it was an xDrive coupe model. The service advisor said he hasn’t seen one before. It’s available as an option there but no one ever gets one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

Matthew_H said:


> I flew down to California 2 weeks ago to visit family in San Diego, I normally land at LAX and get a rental car because it's a lot cheaper and I don't mind the 2.5 hour drive to San Diego. I saw A LOT of Tesla cars. I saw stuck on the freeway in typical LA traffic and 3 were in plain sight. I also saw a Maserati Quattroporte in its natural habitat (on a flatbed) and even a Fisker Karma!!
> 
> I drove down from my place here in Canada all the way to Arizona 3 months ago and the most common car I saw was the Mini. But I believe there was some convention going on because they all had random plates. There was just a swarm of them travelling in groups. We stopped at some rural New Mexico town overnight and the small hotel we stayed at, there were 7 Minis parked. 3 of which had Canadian plates and one had New York plates. No Tesla's during the trip tho apart from the 2 in Arizona.
> 
> ...


Here in Floriduh, even xDrive BMW SUV's are rare, maybe one in five.


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## Matthew_H (Oct 9, 2017)

Autoputzer said:


> Here in Floriduh, even xDrive BMW SUV's are rare, maybe one in five.


I have a cousin from Kissimmee, FL. She drives one of the rare xDrive X3s there lol. And one of the few bright red ones.

Where I live here in Canada 90% of all BMWs are xDrive. And by all BMWs I mean including sedans and SUVs. 2WD BMW SUVs are actually not available here, xDrive comes as standard. It's an optional extra for the cars but the dealer always stocks AWD ones. The only 2WD ones are the M// cars and maybe one 340i out of the 20+ they have. Mercedes-Benz offers no 2WD at all, all of them are 4Matic. I think BMW should sell more RWD cars, I personally wouldn't mind a RWD car in the winter. They're not hard to drive as long as you know how to drive and it's a A LOT more fun. I worked on my friend's Ford Crown Victoria last week. He just bought it from auction as it was an ex-cop car and wanted a good check up on it. It was a very snowy day and it was a BLAST to drive. Most of the customers that bring their Toyota FR-S to the dealer I work at do not have winter rubber on and the car is still manageable.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

I took pics of *some* of the EVs I saw on our trip up the FL Turnpike today. I stopped counting and taking pics of Teslas at 8 outside the thriving metropolis of Valdosta, GA. The last one was the Sport Ute version. I counted 4 Volts, more than a dozen Pirus(es?) Pri-i? Right about 700 miles.

Anyway, I am left with the familiar feeling of stories from the early history of cars. I forget the players, but I heard one story about the very first road trip where the driver asked for directions. He was sent down a road that ended at a farm. It turned out that the farmer had sent them back to the farm so his family could see an automobile. :rofl:

But I did do some looking into EV sales just to see what the trends say. This chart from https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10567 is a pretty clear indicator of the trend in sales:


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## philipnjones (Jun 7, 2008)

The car critic in the Wall Street Journal published an article last week that argued that ICEs are headed out of here like a bat out of hell. Or words to that effect.
Phil Jones


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

philipnjones said:


> The car critic in the Wall Street Journal published an article last week that argued that ICEs are headed out of here like a bat out of hell. Or words to that effect.
> Phil Jones


People who live and work in Manhattan and SoCAL are often oblivious of how the rest of the country, what they call "fly over country" works. A lot of people in Manhattan go their entire lives without ever driving a car.

I'd put as much faith in what the WSJ thinks about the future of cars as I would in stock tips from Patrick Bedard (weird associate editor of Car and Driver).


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

PropellerHead said:


> I took pics of *some* of the EVs I saw on our trip up the FL Turnpike today. I stopped counting and taking pics of Teslas at 8 outside the thriving metropolis of Valdosta, GA. The last one was the Sport Ute version. I counted 4 Volts, more than a dozen Pirus(es?) Pri-i? Right about 700 miles.
> 
> Anyway, I am left with the familiar feeling of stories from the early history of cars. I forget the players, but I heard one story about the very first road trip where the driver asked for directions. He was sent down a road that ended at a farm. It turned out that the farmer had sent them back to the farm so his family could see an automobile. :rofl:
> 
> But I did do some looking into EV sales just to see what the trends say. This chart from https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10567 is a pretty clear indicator of the trend in sales:


That graph's vertical axis is mislabeled. It should be "cars," not "thousands of cars." Total US annual auto sales in 2018 are estimated to be 17.4M. So, that puts EV's at around one percent of total vehicle sales. Take away the $7500 tax credit and it would likely be below 0.5%.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

Autoputzer said:


> That graph's vertical axis is mislabeled. It should be "cars," not "thousands of cars." Total US annual auto sales in 2018 are estimated to be 17.4M. So, that puts EV's at around one percent of total vehicle sales. Take away the $7500 tax credit and it would likely be below 0.5%.


You're missing the point which is the exponential growth of EV sales. Now look at this:

https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

2018 EV sales through 11 months are at 312,000 so this projects to at minimum 350,000 this year and growing.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

PropellerHead said:


> Indeed it won't. I wonder if Musk has the patience to run through a couple doldrums- or at least the questions about them. He needs a customer-facing press man to run interference and allay fears that his head is really just in the upper atmosphere.
> 
> But you're rt. With Camry's and Honda's easily clearing the $35k mark but with half the shiny bits that people want, that breeze we feel isn't from the cool winds of status quo. It's the winds of change from the huge void that begs for a plug. Whether or not Tesla will answer isn't as certain as the assurance that *someone* will. There's just too much opportunity to make a buck. And we will never, not ever see that opportunity turned away.


Tesla has a lot of big plans, semi, pick up, Model Y SUV, etc., along with remodeling the 'S' and 'X' and continuing to develop their interface and self driving capability and grow their Supercharger network, that they need to execute on if they expect to maintain and grow their market position. They really need to deliver a greater percentage of their promises in the future on a more timely basis, or the competition will get them.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

PropellerHead said:


> The position carried is an emotional one based on anecdotal evidence and applied to individual preference rather than data available. It's the same absence of logic that drives someone to build a house much larger than they need, spend hours detailing an automobile for a satisfaction that can only come from within, and buy more cars that are much nicer for fewer available drivers and are far less economical to own than required.
> 
> I share the exact same lack of logic but I choose to embrace it. :thumbup:
> 
> *In short, he's one consumer who simply makes choices based on his own preference. He's one of Everyman. Just like all of us. :grouphug:*


And that is perfectly fine. He just needs to be honest about it. EV's are a new breed, some are not ready to take that leap.


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

Michael Schott said:


> And that is perfectly fine. He just needs to be honest about it.


100% totally agreed. That's difficult for most consumers. Especially when we add in in the individual factors that drive our choice, the reality that one sort of marketing prevails for us over another, and the fear that someone may disagree with our choice. Many folks' hold a deep fear that their choices might be scrutinized to be their individual responsibility tied to their individual factors that may not ring true for others- because opinion and the wanty it drives is a powerful and very individual thing. This doesn't have to hold true within this thread or it's contributors, but it sure as hell is easy and often to spot.

And not just about someone's choice in automobile.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

PropellerHead said:


> Since we're back to ifs and buts, what if you drove a statistically more reliable vehicle that got twice the gas mileage and carried as much or more fuel as your high performance luxury branded M3?
> 
> What then are the ifs and buts of your arrival time?


My M3 got a real 24 MPG on road trips. My average MPG for the M3 was 21.2 MPG. My Cobalt is at 28.3 MPG, and my 535i is at 25.9 MPG. With about 75% suburban driving, the X3 30i xDrive is at 24.8 MPG. Gaming it on a 80-70 mile run to the next patch of civilization along the coast, I can get 35 MPG.

I also had a '97 Honda Civic. It was struggling at 80 MPH with the AC on. There's a reason they named them "Honda Civic" instead of "Honda Interstate" or "Honda Autobahn." My all-time record on a tank of gas with the Civic was 40.5 MPG, from southern New Jersey to Virginia Beach, in the winter, with overinflated tires (having left Cape Code when it was about 10F and heading south and steadily hitting warmer temperatures and therefore higher tire pressures), and a big tail wind from a nor'easter. I also drove down the DELLMARVA Peninsula on U.S. 13 with slower speed limits than if I'd taken the faster, longer inland route along the interstates. The M3 had a 15 gallon tank. The Civic was at ten or eleven gallons, but didn't have an MPG readout allowing me to safely run it near empty (MPG/miles = gallons used). Frau Putzer ran it dry once, coasting into the driveway. For the time I had the Civic, my average fuel economy was 33.6 MPG. On a 1900 mile road trip on the interstates, the car got 33.4 MPG.

A militant tree-hugging relative of mine launched like a North Korean ICBM when I told her that my M3 used less gas than my Civic. After she came back down to Earth, I explained that that was because I drove the M3 a lot less than I did the M3.

I have significant tree hugging tendencies. That and the lack of a spare tire made me replace the M3 with a 535i instead of an M5. A "greener" solution than the 535i would have been a 535d. But, the 535i still offered a manual transmission, and although all my cars must be road trip worthy, they can putt around Bubbaville in short hops at low speeds for a year at a time. That driving environment plays Hell with modern diesel's emission control hardware.

BMW was planning to sell a G01 X3 30d, but abruptly and unexpected stopped selling diesels in the U.S. But with Frau Putzer now retired, the short trip, low-speed thing would have made a X3 30d impractical for us. Back when she was working, she had a 56 mile/day commute mostly on a 65 MPH highway. If she'd still been working, and her employer would have stopped spraying employees' cars daily with an H2SO4 solution, we would have considered a diesel. A hybrid or electric would have been useless under those driving conditions.

The Achilles heel for the diesel is the emissions, or specifically the reliability and durability of the necessary emission control hardware. But, the diesel enthusiasts don't get bent out of shape when anybody mentions those problems. But, mention that a Tesla is not practical for long, fast road trips in Flyoverland, and the arrows start flying, proving once again that:

1. You better not mess with somebody's religion.

2. The truer something is, the more upset people get when you say it.


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

Autoputzer said:


> 1. You better not mess with somebody's religion.
> 
> 2. The truer something is, the more upset people get when you say it.


All true. But it still doesn't answer the question.

What if you'd long before made a choice of a more fuel efficient vehicle with more fuel capacity than the M3? The choice existed when you bought the M3. Was the M3 and 80mph the only choice to facilitate the quickest route? If it was, why was it? If it wasn't, why wouldn't you make the logical choice?



Autoputzer said:


> If I'd had a *partially *charged Tesla instead of an M3 when I got the bad news about my mother, I couldn't have got there as soon as I did.


Since you brought Tesla as a choice and made sure to mention that the experience was only valid with a 'partially charged' unit, how might your experience have changed if the Tesla were fully charged? Why is the timing dependent on this circumstance? Would the outcome have been different in a fully charged unit? How?


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

PropellerHead said:


> All true. But it still doesn't answer the question.
> 
> What if you'd long before made a choice of a more fuel efficient vehicle with more fuel capacity than the M3? The choice existed when you bought the M3. Was the M3 and 80mph the only choice to facilitate the quickest route? If it was, why was it? If it wasn't, why wouldn't you make the logical choice?
> 
> Since you brought Tesla as a choice and made sure to mention that the experience was only valid with a 'partially charged' unit, how might your experience have changed if the Tesla were fully charged? Why is the timing dependent on this circumstance? Would the outcome have been different in a fully charged unit? How?


Even with a fully charged Tesla, it would have been a logistics drill to acquire charging and sleep at the same location. Oh, make that locations (plural). I probably would have had to do two chargings to go the 900 miles. I still had to do two in-route refuelings with the M3.. but those being around twelve minutes, including leaving piss and taking on Ding Dong's. The reality is that if I'd had only a Tesla, I would have been making a call to Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, or Budget for the trip. Having to rent a car when you have a $90k car back at the house is far into the realm of BS.

I can make that 900 mile trip easily with only one in-route refueling in the 535i.

Somebody on the board here is agg'ing me to grab a manual-transmissioned Porsche GT3 Touring while they're... maybe... still to be had. The Touring is sort of a GT3 wolf in Carrera 4S sheep's clothing. I'd like one, but if it's any consolation one of the reasons I don't is that without a spare tire it's also not a practical road trip car. Yet, GT3 owners don't get bent out of shape by me saying that. :dunno:

Porsche does make a spare for a Carrera with conventional brakes, though. 911's don't overheat their brakes like heavy and relatively nose-heavy BMW M's do. So, even with some track use, the red brakes should be fine.

I've made a decision to limit our non-business fuel use to 1.5 gallons/person/day. For 2018, we were at 1.52 gallons/person/day. That's down from 2.05 gallons/person/day back in 2005.

Although, I seriously thought about an M5, and one of the reasons was to launch that tree-hugging, hippy, socialist relative of mine... again. But, after some track time in an F10 M5, I decided I'd rather have a 535i and funding for about 40% of a future 911.

I could have got better MPG with a 528i. But, I liked having 300 HP, the six-cylinder bark instead of a four-cylinder drone, and I wanted my manual transmission. In hindsight, I also dodged the early-N20 timing chain fiasco.

The M3 was sort of a fortunate accident. I wandered into just about the front of what turned out to be a two-year waiting list for E46 M3 coupes. I was visiting my mother in Virginia Beach over the Independence Day week in 2000. On my way to the beach and go-kart track I stopped by the BMW dealership. Since I live 40 mile from the nearest BMW dealership, I hadn't seen new BMW's up close in years. I really just expected to do a few minutes of tire kicking. This was literally three weeks before the first magazine articles came out about the E46 M3. Once that happened, the waiting list almost instantly grew to two years long. My local dealership then wouldn't even take a deposit by the time I wandered over there on my way to Texas.

I was sort of engaged to be engaged when I ordered the M3. My girlfriend at the time wanted to procreate multiple times. So, I figured that that would be my last chance to buy a BMW for the next 25 years or so. My only regrets with that car were not taking it on a track and selling it after twelve years and 115k miles.

The hippy relative is also religious. There's a religious environmental group, WWJD?... what would Jesus drive? I put some thought into that question and decided to have a discussion with her. I'm thinking a column of maybe 20 armored HUMVEES. The Middle East 2000 years ago we pretty much like the Middle East of today, infested with bunch of religious fanatics who are Hell-bent on killing each other. Throw in bad and non-existent roads, the twelve disciples, food, water, fuel, roadies, security personnel, weaponry, ammunition, and C4I equipment... yep, about 20 armored HUMVEE's would do the trick. The hippy didn't speak to me at the Putzer family reunions for years.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

Autoputzer said:


> Even with a fully charged Tesla, it would have been a logistics drill to acquire charging and sleep at the same location. Oh, make that locations (plural). I probably would have had to do two chargings to go the 900 miles. I still had to do two in-route refuelings with the M3.. but those being around twelve minutes, including leaving piss and taking on Ding Dong's. The reality is that if I'd had only a Tesla, I would have been making a call to Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, or Budget for the trip. Having to rent a car when you have a $90k car back at the house is far into the realm of BS.


Actually, you'd probably need 3 Supercharger stops of 25 to 30 minutes each with a Tesla to make the entire 900 miles. Just like you don't want to run your gas tank dry in a gas car, you don't want to run your battery all the way down on an EV, and since Superchargers aren't as ubiquitous as gas stations, it's probably a good idea to be a little more conservative. So, call it 90 minutes of refueling in a Tesla for 900 miles versus 24 minutes of refueling for the M3, which would add an hour and 6 minutes to your trip making the total trip about 12 1/4 hours in a Tesla versus a little over 11 hours in a gas car.

Also, you said you have 3 cars for two drivers. Today, if some similar emergency occurred, couldn't you just take one of the other cars, and leave the Tesla for the wife to drive?


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## PropellerHead (Jan 3, 2002)

Autoputzer said:


> Even with a fully charged Tesla, it would have been a logistics drill to acquire charging and sleep at the same location.


Ahh. So the most important thing- getting there in time- would have been completely possible- and maybe even quicker without fueling stops in a Tesla.

Got it. :thumbup:


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

GregD said:


> Actually, you'd probably need 3 Supercharger stops of 25 to 30 minutes each with a Tesla to make the entire 900 miles. Just like you don't want to run your gas tank dry in a gas car, you don't want to run your battery all the way down on an EV, and since Superchargers aren't as ubiquitous as gas stations, it's probably a good idea to be a little more conservative. So, call it 90 minutes of refueling in a Tesla for 900 miles versus 24 minutes of refueling for the M3, which would add an hour and 6 minutes to your trip making the total trip about 12 1/4 hours in a Tesla versus a little over 11 hours in a gas car.
> 
> Also, you said you have 3 cars for two drivers. Today, if some similar emergency occurred, couldn't you just take one of the other cars, and leave the Tesla for the wife to drive?


The only reason I bought my 535i was for road trips. I try real hard not to stop for gas after dark. When I'm on a road trip in familiar territory, I have a plan on where and when I stop for gas. The short range of the M3 was an issue on some of the trips I took. I'm really enjoying the 475+ mile range of the 535i. I can fill-up at dusk and drive to midnight if I have to.

I don't let Frau Putzer drive my 535i... because I don't want it dented up. She's had three major wrecks, all her fault. She beat her old record of how fast she can get a new car dinged up with her X3... six days, beating her old record of 14 days. Luckily, paintless dent repair got it back to about 99% of new.

I live in a tourist area, and specifically a ******* tourist area. Vandalism of expensive cars is a big problem where I live. I don't park my 535i anywhere in the tourist areas in March (spring break) and May through August. I only put 8200 miles on it in 2018, and 1000 of those miles was a road trip. I put 7800 miles my Cobalt in 2018, with 1000 of those miles also being on a road trip.

In 2018, the Cobalt got 26.8 MPG and the 535i got 25.6 MPG. At current gas prices, that's just over $0.10/mile. Frau Putzer's X3 is at 24.8 MPG since new. So, I'm mostly solved my petroleum use problem, and done so without disrupting my life.

I generally leave the house twice a day, for lunch with friends and to go to the gym. Most other errands are combined with those trips. One of my new year's resolutions for 2019 is to combine my lunch and gym trips frequently, reducing my driving miles and my gasoline use. That's a lot easier and cheaper than buying a hybrid or EV.

It's my understanding that those quick-charges actually accelerate the degradation of Li-ion batteries.

As more EV's get on the road, the problem of finding a charger might quickly turn into finding a charger that's not in use with a line of cars waiting for those 30 minute quick charges.

I get special deals on GM stuff, so my beaters are GM's bought new. I might replace my 2007 Cobalt in six months. The front runner is a $22k Chevy Sonic, beating out the $38k Volt and $42k Bolt EV. The plug-in hybrid Volt would make more sense than an electric Bolt. Being a hybrid, it would be road-trip worthy. Although, I'm betting that it doesn't have a spare tire. But, the numbers still don't add up. When you add in the fact that I keep cars an average of 110k miles and over eight years, and the degradation of batteries, hybrids and EV's make even less sense for me. They're a solution in search of a problem. If and when they become a real solution to a real problem, and a problem that I specifically have, I'll buy one.

A few years ago, VW built a diesel-plug-in hybrid that would get about 250 MPG on the highway. That was the ultimate example of a solution in search of a problem. They cost about $120k and VW sold a whopping 200 of them.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

Autoputzer said:


> The only reason I bought my 535i was for road trips. I try real hard not to stop for gas after dark. When I'm on a road trip in familiar territory, I have a plan on where and when I stop for gas. The short range of the M3 was an issue on some of the trips I took. I'm really enjoying the 475+ mile range of the 535i. I can fill-up at dusk and drive to midnight if I have to.
> 
> I don't let Frau Putzer drive my 535i... because I don't want it dented up. She's had three major wrecks, all her fault. She beat her old record of how fast she can get a new car dinged up with her X3... six days, beating her old record of 14 days. Luckily, paintless dent repair got it back to about 99% of new.
> 
> ...


 Well, you certainly have a lot of limitations dictating what you can drive. 

How about something that has a truly ridiculous range, is pretty reasonably priced, and drives surprisingly well? For about $27k, you can get a Kia Optima Hybrid that has a 729 mile range and is EPA highway rated at 46 MPG. That's the regular hybrid, not the plug-in hybrid. I haven't driven the Hybrid, but the regular Optimas actually drive pretty well. Throw in the 10 year 100k mile drivetrain *and *hybrid system warranty including the battery pack, and it's a pretty attractive package.

The VW XL1 was a pretty amazing technology demonstrator but rather impractical and exceedingly expensive as you pointed out.

Regarding charger stations being busy, that isn't much of an issue when you can do 99% of your charging at home. It's far more convenient than going to a gas station.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

Autoputzer said:


> It's my understanding that those quick-charges actually accelerate the degradation of Li-ion batteries.


I've heard the same, but it seems that Tesla's battery management system has pretty much alleviated that concern. I have heard of issues with some other manufacturers' batteries, and I think this is one of a number of areas where Tesla is at least a couple of years ahead of the competition.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

GregD said:


> Well, you certainly have a lot of limitations dictating what you can drive.
> 
> How about something that has a truly ridiculous range, is pretty reasonably priced, and drives surprisingly well? For about $27k, you can get a Kia Optima Hybrid that has a 729 mile range and is EPA highway rated at 46 MPG. That's the regular hybrid, not the plug-in hybrid. I haven't driven the Hybrid, but the regular Optimas actually drive pretty well. Throw in the 10 year 100k mile drivetrain *and *hybrid system warranty, and it's a pretty attractive package.
> 
> The VW XL1 was a pretty amazing technology demonstrator.


It's hard to pass up my GM deals. But, I'm not in love with the Sonic. So, I'll be shopping. The Cruze might have worked, but no manual transmission on the high trim version. Plus, GM's stopping production of the Cruze early.

I'm going to be driving a lot over the next 18 months, making frequent construction inspection visits to our new house in Tennessee. One of the G30 guys was having a hard time unloading his fully loaded 2013 328i with only 9k miles. I normally don't do used cars anymore. But, a 328i would be way more comfortable and crashworthy than a Sonic on those upcoming road trips. But, the car had the early-N20/26 timing chain dark cloud hanging over it, and he wanted too much for it.

I did my most recent pre-construction trips up there a few weeks ago in the Cobalt, and it was miserable comparted to making the same trip a few times previously in the 535i.

I worked at an R&D lab. "Technology Demonstrator" is a code term for "We going to build something without actually creating any new technology, and that is useless. But, we're going to build it anyway." That pretty much sums up that 250 MPG VW.

The 250 MPG VW was a pet project of Ferdinand Piech. Bob Lutz said that he also created the succeed-or-die culture at VW Group that caused Dieselgate.


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## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

GregD said:


> Regarding charger stations being busy, that isn't much of an issue when you can do 99% of your charging at home. It's far more convenient than going to a gas station.


Yeah, a cost-effective plug-in hybrid would be a hoot as a beater.

I hate going to gas stations. That's the one remaining place in my life where I cross paths with the dregs of society. I try to get gas early in the morning, thinking that the dregs are still sleeping off the previous night's booze, weed, meth', crack, or oxy.

There's a Circle K Shell station about seven miles from our house that is about $0.30/gallon cheaper than everybody else. It's not that I need the $4 I save by going there. But, I'm "optimizing a process," and I'm rewarding Circle K's good behavior.

We combined getting gas with going to a restaurant nearby for lunch today. There was a couple hanging around there today who looked like they just stepped out of a Breaking Bad episode. I told Frau Putzer about how in the LA area Bentley provides a service where the car notifies them it needs gas and they send out a small truck to fill it up wherever you want them to. Frau Putzer looked a the meth' heads and said "We need to get Bentley rich and move there."

When I'm in a BMW on a road trip, I sometimes get hassled by panhandlers in gas stations. That's where that 475 mile range comes in handy.

The dregs never bother me when I'm in the Cobalt, though.


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## GregD (Feb 5, 2003)

Autoputzer said:


> Yeah, a cost-effective plug-in hybrid would be a hoot as a beater.
> 
> I hate going to gas stations. That's the one remaining place in my life where I cross paths with the dregs of society. I try to get gas early in the morning, thinking that the dregs are still sleeping off the previous night's booze, weed, meth', crack, or oxy.
> 
> ...


I don't think too many of the dregs would bother you in a Kia Optima either, and with a 700+ mile range, gas station visits start to become pretty rare. It also looks like a regular Kia Optima, so there's nothing to draw attention to it. I don't know if you'd like an Optima or not, but it exceeded my expectations when I drove one. The biggest negative is that the driving experience isn't anything special; it's just competent, but that's still better than plenty of other cars out there.

A friend of mine recently bought a Honda Clarity. I call it the tax credit special because it has a battery pack just barely large enough to qualify for the max federal tax credit of $7,500 and the max state rebate here in Colorado of $5,000. It's a snooze to drive and it sounds like a glorified sewing machine, but it is comfortable, roomy, gets great gas mileage, and will do an honest 40 miles on the batteries alone. Unfortunately, they also stuck a little 7 gallon gas tank on it, so the range is only 340 miles.


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## crazy4trains (Mar 30, 2011)

My wife drives a 2015 Kia Optima EX (non-hybrid/non-turbo). I think the body of the optima stays flatter in the corners than my e39 with factory sport suspension. Very easy to take off ramps at speed. The car handles very well for a mass produced, economically priced people hauler. Gets 35 mpg on the highway too if I keep the speed reasonable.


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