# HELP! I fell in love with a 2020 M340i, but not sure if it's the right decision!



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Hi folks! First time poster and new to these forums. Hopefully not breaking any rules, and if this is the wrong place to post please let me know.

For the past ~10 years, I've been driving an Infiniti G37/Q60 via leasing. I've been pretty happy with the cars, especially with the performance upgrades they've received over time, but have always heard about how incredible BMW's are to drive. My lease ends in less than 2 months and Infiniti is hounding me about signing a new lease.

Today, I went to a BMW dealership here and test drove a new M340i. Fully recognizing the difference in the MSRP between these cars (~48k on the Infiniti, ~55k on the M340i), it honestly felt like a totally different stratosphere of car. I fell in love with it. I have never driven a car that FELT like that. The engine sound on downshifts, the precision on the steering, how connected to the car I felt when I was driving it. Plus, the extra ~70 HP and ft/lbs of torque didn't hurt.

Also, it feels like Infiniti is really trying to give me the squeeze. They quoted me another Q60 in their inventory that MSRP's for 8k more than my current lease was brand new, but it has LESS options and LESS performance than my current Q60 (??). So, higher payment on a lease for a worse car. I'm out.

Here are the scenarios I'm debating and where I'm leaning. I have never owned my own car outright as I've leased my cars basically since I was 20. Here are the facts of my current situation, so please challenge me anywhere and give me advice if it makes sense.

Historically, I've gotten a new car every ~3 years because that's when I've wanted to upgrade. Leasing has made sense to me in this arrangement. However, I think I could see myself driving this M340i for the next 5+ years given how many boxes it ticks for me now and in the future. I'm a low mileage driver (see below). *Is leasing the M340i or buying the M340i generally smarter?*
I don't THINK I want to lease an M340i if I get one - my wife and I are considering having a kid in the next 3-5 years and I think having back seats will make life simpler.
There's a model close to me that's a dealership loaner car with 2,700 miles with an asking price of $51k. With their offer of 0.9% financing, the monthly payment lines up to pretty close to my budget, which has my (oh so important) wife's holy blessing.
 Fortunately, my Infiniti is under mileage on the lease (2017 Q60) pretty significantly - about 6,000 miles out of the 36,000 miles I signed up for. Unfortunately, I lived in Dallas during the 2019 October tornadoes and it suffered some superficial paint damage (light scuffs and scratches, some paint damage on on the front bumper). I'm going to get these fixed and get the car detailed/serviced, but expect total cost to (hopefully) be under ~2k.
BMW told me there's a program to "appraise my lease and get me out of it." * Is this a good deal??*
 I've also been doing research on what else is out there. *I have some listings of 2017-2018 M3's with ~20k miles, no accidents, with a sticker price of ~51-55k. Is this something I could use as leverage? Or is it even just a generally BETTER decision than the 2020 M340i?*
Also considered an S4, new Tesla Model 3 performance, used Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, and a top-end Genesis G70. The M340i and the Giulia feel like the only two that'd make me be excited to get in the car every day, so I'm trying to not show to the dealer that my options are shortlisted.
I'm a first time purchaser instead of lessee, *if a used car doesn't have the options I want, can they be installed by the dealer (namely HUD)?*

Other facts that are probably important:

I live 12 miles from work and am generally pretty introverted, so mileage should be low
I am concerned about maintenance on a used BMW - my family had a couple growing up and only heard how horrible the maintenance costs were. Is this true?
The M3 and M4 are the two apex dream cars for what I feel I could reasonably afford in my life, so the realistic idea of ownership of one is very tempting
I have excellent credit (800+)
My approx. budget is about ~800-850 monthly.
Am willing to put up to about ~5k down, but if it's smarter do differently am open to suggestions
I generally plan to leave the car stock - I'm not a huge tuner or DIY mechanic.

I wrote a novel, sorry. If anyone made it all the way through, I would LOVE any advice you have. THANK YOU!!


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## alex2364 (May 8, 2006)

You can lease a M4 CS for less than $800/month with $0 down. Just throwing this out there. Leasing vs buying is a personal decision but buying a new BMW usually makes more financial sense when you***8217;re keeping it at least 6 years. Otherwise you will come out ahead or even with leasing.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

alex2364 said:


> You can lease a M4 CS for less than $800/month with $0 down. Just throwing this out there. Leasing vs buying is a personal decision but buying a new BMW usually makes more financial sense when you're keeping it at least 6 years. Otherwise you will come out ahead or even with leasing.


That's definitely true. I could afford an $800/month lease on a car, but I struggle with spending that much and not getting ANY equity out of it at all. The current payment on my Infiniti lease is ~$470 a month.

Also, I've struggled to see a decent lease on an M2 for less than $1k (let alone an M3/M4) and I'm pretty new at this since Infiniti's had me under their thumb for quite a while. I've also read some of the M's and M-series BMW's have pretty terrible leasing terms. Anything you'd suggest?


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

For as much time as you spent typing that all up and indicating how you have been leasing for years please tell us you know how to lease by completely understanding all parameters (esp negotiable ones) and can actually calculate your own lease payment...:eeps::thumbup:

To me if you are sub 10K miles/yr and take great care of your cars just buy it because it will hold value and still be in warranty after 3 years...if driving 15K+ a year or more lease it because high wear and near out of warranty at lease end...these simple guidelines have always worked for me...also local taxation rules are big...leases will give you no tax advantage on next car...whereas most states give credit on trades with cars you own...a lot of course depends on MF and how well residual is subsidized too...

PS, being under mileage on leases is rarely a good thing...because you have paid for a lot of miles you didn't use.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> Hi folks! First time poster and new to these forums.


Welcome. You can get lots of guidance from very experienced folks on this Forum. And you'll receive a fair share of abuse, which is, in this location, how some show their love and respect.

You passed the first "should I get this car" test in that you love the car, and you drove it so you know what you're looking at.

If you think you will still love the car half a decade down the road, then purchasing under desireable terms makes sense. If you don't drive a lot of miles, purchasing makes even more sense.

If your local BMW dealer has a way through hidden conquest money to help make your current ride go away painlessly, as long as you have it in writing that you're signing liability for the car, and any lease-end costs over to the dealer, that's a nice way to go.

As to what sort of deal.... well, the car has some miles so you want to understand when the warranty clock started ticking and how much warranty and free service is left.

Then you want to calculate invoice, make sure you know all available incentives, and make sure whatever price the dealer is offering is BEFORE consumer incentives are subtracted from the dealer's offered price.

Many people here prefer to do their own calculations and have "yes" numbers clearly in their heads prior to doing price and terms negotiations with a BMW dealer.

You might be pleasantly surprised at how well you can do on a deal you're ready to sign. But keep an eye on all the moving parts because, with a few notable exceptions, car dealers are car dealers regardless of the brand they sell.

If you want specific analysis of a proposed deal, post the MSRP, Invoice, residual (if you're considering a lease), money cost and lease/loan length, rebates/incentives, any other drive off costs and where they are in the deal.

You'll get help here, if you post specifics.

Best of luck.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

BTW $800 x 60 months = $48,000.

If you like $800 for a monthly payment, *and you don't get talked into making a large cash down payment*, then sharpen your pencil.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

greginchi said:


> For as much time as you spent typing that all up and indicating how you have been leasing for years please tell us you know how to lease by completely understanding all parameters (esp negotiable ones) and can actually calculate your own lease payment...:eeps::thumbup:
> 
> To me if you are sub 10K miles/yr and take great care of your cars just buy it because it will hold value and still be in warranty after 3 years...if driving 15K+ a year or more lease it because high wear and near out of warranty at lease end...these simple guidelines have always worked for me...also local taxation rules are big...leases will give you no tax advantage on next car...whereas most states give credit on trades with cars you own...a lot of course depends on MF and how well residual is subsidized too...
> 
> PS, being under mileage on leases is rarely a good thing...because you have paid for a lot of miles you didn't use.


I definitely do not understand all of them but I'm not pretending to. I'm coming here in hopes of learning to not be ignorant of the process. I saw some threads here about components of a lease and what to negotiate on, so I plan on reading and learning. Appreciate you posting.

And thanks for suggesting specifics on the incentives and whatnot. I will post those in a couple of minutes.


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## alex2364 (May 8, 2006)

I***8217;m wondering how the OP has been leasing the past 10 years, which basically means 3 separate leases, and still doesn***8217;t understand all the moving parts of a lease deal. Also the M2 will be terrible to lease because the residual is terrible. You can get a much better lease deal on a M340i or M4.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

alex2364 said:


> I'm wondering how the OP has been leasing the past 10 years, which basically means 3 separate leases, and still doesn't understand all the moving parts of a lease deal. Also the M2 will be terrible to lease because the residual is terrible. You can get a much better lease deal on a M340i or M4.


And now you know why the Infiniti dealer was hounding him for another lease...:yikes:

The thing is a quick google search will yield tremendous information on leasing...Edmunds forums for MF and residuals by car model...leasehackr for calculator...etc...it isn't rocket science but people like to throw their money away I guess without studying.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Thoughts in no particular order:

Yes, a dealer can install options in a used car. But the cost is almost always obscene. Scratch that idea.
As others have stated (kindly or otherwise) just because you are a leasing veteran does not mean you understand leasing. My suspicion is your Infiniti dealer has been raping you.
$800 to $850 is well-equipped 5 Series coin. Way to much to spend on a 3 Series;
You don't indicate where you live. But you can order from a dealer pretty much anywhere, and take delivery at the Performance Center. You won't believe what that M340 is REALLY capable of until a Professional Driver takes you out on the track. (No, not in your brand new car, but in one which us almost identical).
If you drive few miles, why not a 10,000 mile per year lease? On some models, BMW even offers 7,500 miles per year.
Do yourself a huge favor and reach out to Bimmerfest founder Jon Shafer, or sponsor Greg Poland. Each is justly renowned for no-nonsense deals on new cars, regardless of whether you lease or purchase.
Don't get an M4 CS. Yes, the leases are crazy good. But things like the lack of a center armrest will drive you and/or your wife crazy. An M340 is a TERRIFIC first BMW, particularly with car seats in your future.
Join the BMW Car Club of America. (PM me for my member number; is you use me as a referral, you and I will both be entered in a drawing for a 1-day M School). 
If you can't work with Jon or Greg, visit Leasehackr.com and find a reputable lease broker in your area. The savings will be well worth it.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

quackbury said:


> Thoughts in no particular order:
> 
> Yes, a dealer can install options in a used car. But the cost is almost always obscene. Scratch that idea.
> As others have stated (kindly or otherwise) just because you are a leasing veteran does not mean you understand leasing. My suspicion is your Infiniti dealer has been raping you.
> ...


Hmmmm, the meds must be working...:angel:


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

alex2364 said:


> I'm wondering how the OP has been leasing the past 10 years, which basically means 3 separate leases, and still doesn't understand all the moving parts of a lease deal. Also the M2 will be terrible to lease because the residual is terrible. You can get a much better lease deal on a M340i or M4.


This is pretty much accurate! I recognize I probably could have saved a lot of money over the last 10 years or so, but the money's gone at this point. At the time, Infiniti would keep me at approx my current payment with no more money down, take the car back, give the new car, and be done with it. I never did (and should have done) more research.

Live and learn I suppose!



quackbury said:


> Thoughts in no particular order:
> 
> Yes, a dealer can install options in a used car. But the cost is almost always obscene. Scratch that idea.
> As others have stated (kindly or otherwise) just because you are a leasing veteran does not mean you understand leasing. My suspicion is your Infiniti dealer has been raping you.
> ...


Thanks for the responses! I'll look into the BMW Car Club of America. I definitely do not consider myself a "leasing veteran", I've just had multiple leases. Definitely at the times I signed them did not understand them fully. Hence me trying to learn now.

To some of your questions/points:


I live in Austin, TX
I've been driving 12k mile leases this whole time, but always was under 30k. I wanted that extra buffer so I wouldn't have to pay more miles at turn in. I never considered the fact I was truly wasting dollars by not using all the mileage, which is obviously true.
I do think I'd be happy in the RIGHT car for 5+ years, and I'd really like to have some equity for when I'm ready for the next car. Not having a car payment for a year or two also sounds nice. As such, I'm still leaning towards a straight up purchase versus doing another lease, but not against a lease if monetarily makes more sense.
I don't have any interest in an M4 CS - I want a fun every day driver, not a track car. M340i and M3/M4 feel like the sweet spot for me, but M3/M4 is prob out of my reach for financing, only leasing.
I'll reach out to Jon or Greg and see if they'd be interested in any advice.

Details on current incentives for purchase/lease coming next.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

M340i (2020MY)
15k miles / 56% residual
12k miles / 58% residual
10k miles / 59% residual

$1000 lease credit
$2500 finance credit
$2000 loyalty credit

0.00099 MF

0.9% APR up to 60 months


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Let's start where you are now -- life is a learning process. Rip off the rear view mirror and look forward.

It's been a slow day at the office so I did a bit of thinking on this situation.

Assume you want to purchase this beast.

Assuming MSRP of $55K.

Assuming dealer's offer of $51K is BEFORE incentives.

Assuming the dealer can make your current lease go away with _nothing out of pocket _from you for the Infiniti, _now or down the line_.

Assuming your credit is good.

Let's see what $50K, OUT THE DOOR, looks like. Which is a bit of a distance from $51K plus tax and tags and Infiniti lease return.

2 grand down, 60 month loan of $48,000 of around $850/month or a bit less maybe.

In 5 years you own the car and if it's well-loved and low mileage then, it might be worth $15K ~ $20K, let's say $15K.

So, you shell out $53,000 plus any maintenance along the way, say another 2 grand, making it $55,000 minus $15,000 resale value in 5 years, for a net of $40,000 over 5 years, or $667/month.

I'd be interested to know what $667/month might get you in a brand new, built just as you want it, New Car Smell, Fresh Off the Boat, LEASED BMW or other interesting car. Always under warranty, scheduled maintenance covered, never bored.

Keep the spouse, change cars frequently. Cheaper and simpler.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

greginchi said:


> M340i (2020MY)
> 15k miles / 56% residual
> 12k miles / 58% residual
> 10k miles / 59% residual
> ...


There ya go! At the right cap cost and 59% residual, with incentives, this could work way better than a purchase.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Let's start where you are now -- life is a learning process. Rip off the rear view mirror and look forward.
> 
> It's been a slow day at the office so I did a bit of thinking on this situation.
> 
> ...


Quick calc on 60K MSRP M340 with cap of 52K for 36/10 lease with nothing down but first and fees is 575 a month before tax. 626 with 9% monthly taxes.

He wont get loyalty so I adjusted cap to 54.5K for 646 and 704 payments. (This assumes ~invoice price for cap minus 1000 lease incentive)


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Napkin calculation says $550/month+tax for a 10k mile/year lease, with lease fee and minimum drive offs paid up front. A tad more if the lease fee is added to the cap cost.

My target would be $550 ~ $575 a month, including tax, paying lease fee, tags, first month's payment up front.

I'd look at MSDs (multiple security deposits) to see if it made sense to lower the MF further and get the payment down another ~$25/month.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

1968BMW2800 said:


> There ya go! At the right cap cost and 59% residual, with incentives, this could work way better than a purchase.


OK, these three posts have swung me pretty heavily towards the leasing camp.

Let me go read some more and do some learning on the components of leasing and I'll try to return with more knowledge for discussion (if there's any point to any).

Thank you guys!


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

You are welcome. I missed the Texas part of the equation. Different tax situation there, different options than the rest of the known world. YMMV.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Don't be afraid to come back to us. We don't get any nicer, but the deal always is better!


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Don't be afraid to come back to us. We don't get any nicer, but the deal always is better!


It doesn't really bother me, the advice is very helpful.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Well, there's a spreadsheet guru on this forum who shows up now and again. Autoputzer will tell you that his spreadsheets say if you keep your car 7 years, keep the mileage reasonable, wash and wax it a lot, then purchasing beats leasing in pure dollars and cents almost every time, with a BMW.

But what's the fun in that???


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Last 5 series we had in our family hung around for over 25 years.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> You are welcome. I missed the Texas part of the equation. Different tax situation there, different options than the rest of the known world. YMMV.


Oh yeah, TX is bad on lease taxation (though not as bad as the 18% here in Chicago)...I think you have to pay sales tax on whole purchase price even when leasing...which to me just means rip off and buy it if you are going to pay all that tax...but there is that weird balloon option too BMWFS may offer in TX.

Found this on TX BMW dealer site about balloon/owners choice (ugh):

Lauderdale: Hi I'm Lauderdale.

Kyle: And I'm Kyle.

Lauderdale: And we're the finance managers with Momentum BMW. We're here to talk about leasing versus Owner's Choice. So when you lease, the car is titled under BMW.

Kyle: And on our Owner's Choice program, the car is actually titled to you. So it's a benefit, at the end of the term if you were to buy, as if the vehicle were titled to BMW, you would have to pay taxes on the remaining portion of that vehicle a second time. Even though you've already been taxed on the full amount of the vehicle initially. With Owner's Choice, since the vehicle is titled to you, you will not be paying taxes on the remaining portion. You will just be essentially re-financing under your name again.

Lauderdale: When you lease, Gap insurance is included. So in the event that the car gets into a total loss, whatever your auto insurance company does not cover, BMW waives the difference.

Kyle: On our Owner's Choice program, Gap is not included. This is because the car is not titled to the bank. In a situation where it's a lease, the car is titled to the bank. They have some liability there so they include Gap insurance as part of their leasing cost. With our Owner's Choice program, the car is titled to you. So it is your responsibility to make sure that that Gap is covered.

Lauderdale: When you're leasing as well, if you sign up for hypothetically 10,000 to 12,000 miles per year, in the event that your driving habit has changed the next year, you always have the option to call BMW and increase your mileage at a lesser cost versus at the end of the term.

Kyle: On the Owner Choice program, your ability to add more miles before the end of the term is more limited. It is a retail contract with a balloon. Which means that you're not able to alter that contract before the end of the term. You are, however, able to purchase or rather pay for the excess mileage at the end of the term. Just not purchase it before and roll it into your remaining lease payments.

Lauderdale: Also, in a lease, an acquisition fee is charged. That's standard in all leasing.

Kyle: The Owner Choice program has no acquisition fee. So there is no fee to set up the lease with the Owner's Choice program because it is technically a retail contract with a balloon at the end of the term. On both contracts, there is what's called a "disposition fee". That is the same across the board. That is the charge that BMW charges you if you get out of the vehicle at the end of the term and do not re-up with BMW financial after that.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

Found old post I put on OC when I was thinking about here in IL a few years ago as alternate to leasing...still not a good option, some states are just meant to pay cash/finance.

OC usually works best if you know you will purchase at term end since you won't pay any more sales tax...basically avoid the lease double taxation.

-->Big downside to OC is 3.25% interest as compared to about 2% on a lease with base rate and full MSD...also pay full taxes on purchase price...lease has benefit that taxation can change if you leave a tax heavy area like Chicago where I live...even with all of Chicago/IL taxes a lease is less expensive when looking at total cost of ownership over 3 year term.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Keep the spouse, change cars frequently. Cheaper and simpler.


Chatting with you is the next best thing to having a Zoom call with the Buddha. I know you're good at your calling, but did you ever consider a part time gig writing Fortune Cookie scripts?



remistus said:


> OK, these three posts have swung me pretty heavily towards the leasing camp.
> 
> Let me go read some more and do some learning on the components of leasing and I'll try to return with more knowledge for discussion (if there's any point to any).
> 
> Thank you guys!


Great attitude, and very refreshing. Most young 'un's want someone else to do the work / research for them. You'll go far, Young Skywalker.



1968BMW2800 said:


> You are welcome. I missed the Texas part of the equation. Different tax situation there, different options than the rest of the known world. YMMV.


^^^ This. As Greg noted in his post below (where he discovered the true unicorns of the automotive sales world, two F&I guys who actually want to help consumers, rather than blow a Texas-sized cloud of smoke up their nose), things are different in Tejas. Owner's Choice is part fish, part fowl, and a b*tch to wrap one's head around.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Thanks again for all the help guys. I've read up and think I have my head wrapped around the different components of a lease between cap cost, money factor, residual, etc. I've also grabbed a spreadsheet lease calculator and am working through it. The sales guy sent me a first pass on a potential lease and I insisted on seeing more details incl. the above, which I think has helped since he wanted to make sure he "kept it simple for me" :tsk:. The first pass of residuals he sent over were 49% on a 36/10, which is a LOT lower than the 59% you guys indicated. I pushed on that as well as why it didn't look like any BMW USA incentives were baked into the lease. He went to "check on it". (also, did googling but struggled at least just on my phone to find it, where's the best place to look up residual values?)

I've also read a way to help make leases in Texas more attractive is to see if the dealer has any tax incentives for the month. Sometimes they can wipe out the tax liability up front if negotiated, which would obviously help with overall cost. Fingers crossed but not holding my breath.

I'm trying to focus less on the monthly payment, but I am concerned about what the payment will end up being given how Texas handles tax on lease. If the payment is going to end up in the ~$650-700 range, given my low typical mileage and the 0.9% financing they're offering right now (my credit is 805 so I'll qualify), is it still smarter to lease?

Again thanks guys, I don't want to burden y'all with doing this for me, just trying to learn and do it the right way!



greginchi said:


> Found old post I put on OC when I was thinking about here in IL a few years ago as alternate to leasing...still not a good option, some states are just meant to pay cash/finance.
> 
> OC usually works best if you know you will purchase at term end since you won't pay any more sales tax...basically avoid the lease double taxation.


I wouldn't be 100% confident I'd purchase at term given my history (and notorious ADD) with wanting the next and best new thing on about a 3 year cycle. However, I did really love the M340i and if any car was going to be that car, this would probably be it.

Still, I'll add OC into the list of things I'm considering.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

quackbury said:


> Chatting with you is the next best thing to having a Zoom call with the Buddha. I know you're good at your calling, but did you ever consider a part time gig writing Fortune Cookie scripts?


Thank you, oh Wise One. :bow:

One of my favorite books is titled, If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him. This is because, were you to meet the Budda, in person or on Zoom, he would most likely be an impostor and a false prophet.

In car deals, we are all prophets of lower dealer profits. ummmmmmm.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

One other question - are MSD's still a thing for new BMW leases? In the Lease 101 post, it sounds like the program was discontinued, but in the MSD thread, there are updates as recently as Dec 2019. It sounds like it only applies if you have MSD's on your current lease. Am I understanding that correctly?


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Back to OP. We got you all excited about continuing on as a serial leasing New Car Smell junkie and then found out it _might_ cost you more due to the Texas Surcharge.

A couple of things to remember about the way leasing works in the Lone Star Republic:

First, sales tax on the entire agreed-upon purchase price of the car is, technically, paid by the lessor (BMWFS) and they pass that tax cost on to the leasee (you). But the leasee DOES NOT receive any tax benefit -- the taxpayer of record on the sales tax remains BMWFS.

In other states, though specifics vary a bit, basically, one pays sales tax in addition to the base monthly payment based on the local rate, taxed only on the amount of each base lease payment.

What some world-class deal grinders in Texas do is calculate what a lease payment, including the 6.25% sales tax rate, would look like in, say California, on a deal to which they would say yes. Then they approach their Texas BMW dealer and say, "If I were on the Left Coast this lease payment would set me back $562.50, including tax, and I'd say yes to that deal right now. So, get my payment, with the Texas sales tax folded in, to $562.50, with the _exact same driveoff_ costs as I've calculated for the Left Coast deal, and I'll sign right now."

So, get that cap cost down to your yes number, figure out how you want the lease fee covered (folded into the payment or paid as part of up front drive offs), whip out your lease calculator and plug in the numbers, with and without MSD deductions on Money Factor, rinse and repeat until it smells right to you, and then tell your dealer you're ready to dance.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> One other question - are MSD's still a thing for new BMW leases? In the Lease 101 post, it sounds like the program was discontinued, but in the MSD thread, there are updates as recently as Dec 2019. It sounds like it only applies if you have MSD's on your current lease. Am I understanding that correctly?


Up to 7 MSDs can be applied for a maximum rate reduction of .00035 (00005 reduction for each MSD), and the deposit amount is based on the nearest higher $50 increment in the gross payment. So a $501 total lease payment means an MSD will cost $550 each.

Most folks save around 25 ~ 30 bucks/month using max MSDs, which is a nice rate of return for letting BMWFS have your loot for 36 months.

Adjusted best Money Factor with maximum MSDs is about .00064, or 1.536% interest rate, give or take.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Up to 7 MSDs can be applied for a maximum rate reduction of .00035 (00005 reduction for each MSD), and the deposit amount is based on the nearest higher $50 increment in the gross payment. So a $501 total lease payment means an MSD will cost $550 each.
> 
> Most folks save around 25 ~ 30 bucks/month using max MSDs, which is a nice rate of return for letting BMWFS have your loot for 36 months.
> 
> Adjusted best Money Factor with maximum MSDs is about .00064, or 1.536% interest rate, give or take.


As funny as you are I'm not so sure MSDs are being done countrywide these days...he will have to ask his local dealer...and a lot of sales at these dealers are clueless on MSDs.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Back to OP. We got you all excited about continuing on as a serial leasing New Car Smell junkie and then found out it _might_ cost you more due to the Texas Surcharge.
> 
> A couple of things to remember about the way leasing works in the Lone Star Republic:
> 
> ...


Thank you. Awesome post. Working on figuring all of those numbers out now.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Hold my beer and watch this:

MSRP: $55,000
Dealer Price $50,000
Incentives ( $3,000)
Cap Cost $47,000
6.25% tax hit $ 2,938
Net Adjusted Cap $49,938
Residual @ 59% $32,450

$49,938 - $32,450 = $17,488

Drive off = Tags + doc fee + lease fee + first month's payment + $100 American Express Gift card to the salesperson who gives you this deal and makes your Infiniti go away.

at MF of .00099=$567.34/month for 36 months @ 10,000 happy BMW miles/year.
at MF of .00064=$538.51/month for 36 months @ 10,000 happier BMW miles/year.

Now, in California, at MF of .00099, with sales tax rate of 6.25%, and a cap cost of $47,000, the monthly payment is $513.00, so the difference between Texas @ $567.34 and California @ $513 = $54.34, or, for 36 months = $1956.24.

Do I think your friendly Texas dealer will go $1956.24 cheaper AND make your Infiniti go away for free, paint dings and all? Well, doesn't matter what I think. Only matters what you and your calculations give you the huevos to ask for. 
$483.45 with $3,500 worth of MSDs, if they have 'um in Texas.

Golly, spending other people's money sure is fun.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Gimmie my beer back and somebody else check my math. I'm retired and a little rusty. Just a poor old orphaned trust fund baby on a fixed income.


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

Let him verify by self with leasehackr calc...ur getting too easy in old age. Ha


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Hold my beer and watch this:
> 
> MSRP: $55,000
> Dealer Price $50,000
> ...


I'm working on my spreadsheet but let me give you some actuals from what the sales guy has sent me so far.


Original MSRP is 61,105. Dealer discounts bring suggested price to 54,990. Nitrogen (standard for BMW?) and a window tint (good idea in Texas, so not fussed about that) makes the final adjusted price 55,538 BEFORE taxes.
I don't think that ~6k off is incentives, just dealer discount. I don't see conquest incentives for example), so that's cap cost with nothing else.
Fees and tax is 150, tax 3471.12, non-tax fees of 292.25. Net price is 59,451.37.
Residual is 59% on the 36/10 (the original one they sent was for the slightly-used one I was considering purchasing, incentives on the new ones for leases are better)
Money factor is 0.00139, so interest rate of 3.336%. Doesn't my credit have any bearing on that? 3.3% feels pretty damn high. I've been reading that MF isn't negotiable but trusting the internet, etc.

So testing my knowledge. 59% residual on the calculated price of 55k means anticipated sale price at end of term is 32,767.42, bringing monthly payment to about ~630. That's too high for what I'm after, so I'm thinking my "yes" top end cap price is about 51-52k with the tax laid in. That'd put my monthly payment on a 36/10 to about 590 a month, which is at the top of the range I'd be comfortable with.

I have my own little spreadsheet but I'm going to run through the Leasehackr calc as well.


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Ran the Leasehackr calc, looks like I was pretty close to spot on. My magic number is ~52k cap including tax and incentives with the quoted MF.

I sent over my list of demands to the salesman with your guys' suggestions. Will post updates as they come.


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

Dealers bury incentives in discount to make themselves look better. Like I said I'd shoot for 7-8% off MSRP plus ur incentives. MF can also be bumped by dealer by 40 basis pts which he has done. Ask for base rate. Be prepared to shop other dealers too if he won't move.


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

remistus said:


> I'm working on my spreadsheet but let me give you some actuals from what the sales guy has sent me so far.
> 
> 
> Original MSRP is 61,105. Dealer discounts bring suggested price to 54,990. Nitrogen (standard for BMW?) and a window tint (good idea in Texas, so not fussed about that) makes the final adjusted price 55,538 BEFORE taxes.
> ...


Im enjoying reading this thread, takes me back to when I was just figuring out how this worked, and people here helped me.

A couple notes.

1. That dealers price is almost assuredly including SOME incentives. Whether you want to ask them to break it out or not is up to you.

2. they are charging you the max money factor markup. From reading this thread, I am reading that base rate is .00099, and dealers are allowed to markup the money factor up to .00040, and you get the dealers offer rate of .00139. This is not the "heinous crime" that many will make it out to be, but, it IS a point that can be negotiated, down to the base rate or not, per the dealers policies.

If they wont negotiate it, use your lease calculator (I like one called "leasematic" on mobile devices, well worth the $2-$3 the owner charges for it), and see what the difference between .00099 and .00139 is in monthly payment, multiply that by 36 to get a total, and if the dealer wont reduce to base rate money factor, you say something to the equivalent of 'i understand your policies may make you charge XXX rate, but that will cost me YYYY over the course of the lease, so I will need that reduced from the cap cost in dealer discount up front.

(or not, its up to you to negotiate as hard or not as hard as you want to). BMW MF is negotiable between the base rate and the max dealer markup as I just mentioned above).

3. Residual is NOT negotiable, it is what it is based on miles / years. Since you drive so little, you should be focused on 36/10.

4. You definitely want to lease vs own, since this is your first BMW. Since leasing BMWs is so favorable, you want to find out if you want to "marry" the brand, so start off dating (leasing). You may find out BMW is marriage material, and you may find out that its "hot, but not marriage material" (lol).

Gonna repeat my recommendation for leasematic app. It has a wizard mode that allows you to input all the variables, etc. Like I mentioned it cost a bit of money, but I guarantee you 1000% you have already spent more money than it costs both posting here and trying to build your spreadsheet which will end up doing something similar but likely not as comprehensive.

I always get amused by when people wont spend $3 on an app for their phone, but have no problem buying a $5 big mac or something. Not saying thats you, and the only thing I know about the creator of Leasematic, is at one time they used to be a member here.

For my own deals, it has saved me hundreds in not having to figure it out myself, and quickly inputting numbers to see what I need cap cost to be and base rate money factor ( for example ) to get the payment I am eyeballing.

Anyway, good luck OP. I will be following this thread along to see how you make out.


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> BTW, Forgive Me Festers, For I Have Sinned. I, too, wanted a payment on my last lease, and I, don't tell anyone, shelled out a $164.48 cap reduction payment to get my payment to $399 so my MSDs would be $2,800 and I could get the right ROI, or that's the rationale I used. I just wanted that payment. And the New Car Smell.


I've done similar...that is BMW Leasing 695 tho on the curriculum...


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

greginchi said:


> I've done similar...that is BMW Leasing 695 tho on the curriculum...


:rofl: Aced that course.


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

greginchi said:


> Cmon man you know 99% of those people leasing havent a clue about leasing or the rest of nation...they just want a payment...:tsk:
> 
> Each grand off cap saves him another ~29 a month...so if he gets another 3K off from dealer payment is like 631.
> 
> Needs to get about another 6K off from dealer to get to his 550 payment.


I never expected to get to 550. If I can get the payment to 600, I think we'd be in good shape, but it sounds like that's gonna be really difficult without putting a significant amount of money down.

The problem is, if I'm going to be putting thousands down or paying the taxes up front on the entire value of the car, financing feels more appropriate. We entered into this being totally fine with financing if it made more sense. I don't think I could stomach putting 2k down BEFORE tax in order to get to a palatable payment and get zero equity out of it at the end of the day.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Total transparency. Gotta tell the whole truth. I knew I could grind that $164.48 off the cap cost,but my wife said, "Now dear..." She reminded me that the GSM said it was gonna be $500 over invoice and he did find that extra grand in the trunk somewhere. So I was all okay with it, until I found that $30 doc transfer fee. And the Missus said I had to leave that one alone also. But, too my dying day, I will forever believe, given the chance, that $164.48 would have been gone!!


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

remistus said:


> I never expected to get to 550. If I can get the payment to 600, I think we'd be in good shape, but it sounds like that's gonna be really difficult without putting a significant amount of money down.
> 
> The problem is, if I'm going to be putting thousands down or paying the taxes up front on the entire value of the car, financing feels more appropriate. We entered into this being totally fine with financing if it made more sense. I don't think I could stomach putting 2k down BEFORE tax in order to get to a palatable payment and get zero equity out of it at the end of the day.


Doesn't cost anything to ask your dealer for another 4-5K off..but you are probably too far apart. Also don't want to put any money down on lease because if car gets totaled during lease you get none of your down back and you don't have a car anymore.


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Total transparency. Gotta tell the whole truth. I knew I could grind that $164.48 off the cap cost,but my wife said, "Now dear..." She reminded me that the GSM said it was gonna be $500 over invoice and he did find that extra grand in the trunk somewhere. So I was all okay with it, until I found that $30 doc transfer fee. And the Missus said I had to leave that one alone also. But, too my dying day, I will forever believe, given the chance, that $164.48 would have been gone!!


For sure...just to get rid of you...but that salesguy needed the hundo way more than you!


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

remistus said:


> I never expected to get to 550. If I can get the payment to 600, I think we'd be in good shape, but it sounds like that's gonna be really difficult without putting a significant amount of money down.
> 
> The problem is, if I'm going to be putting thousands down or paying the taxes up front on the entire value of the car, financing feels more appropriate. We entered into this being totally fine with financing if it made more sense. I don't think I could stomach putting 2k down BEFORE tax in order to get to a palatable payment and get zero equity out of it at the end of the day.


PS, the way BMW leases/residuals are subsidized by BMW you will never have equity in it.

Porsche on the other hand utilizes residuals below what market value will be (along with well above market MF rates) and most people put low miles on so equity is common...but people don't really care and turn back in to dealer who gets a cherry car to CPO and make even more money off of. Porsche has it dialed in!


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

OP, now that you sort of have a handle on leasing please make sure you pass help along to your friends/family...nothing gets me going more than when my friends family say they got a 'good' lease deal when they really haven't a clue other than maybe getting a little less than whatever out of nowhere payment figure they had in their mind. Ha:thumbup:


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

greginchi said:


> OP, now that you sort of have a handle on leasing please make sure you pass help along to your friends/family...nothing gets me going more than when my friends family say they got a 'good' lease deal when they really haven't a clue other than maybe getting a little less than whatever out of nowhere payment figure they had in their mind. Ha:thumbup:


Of course! More than happy to share with others.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

So, remistus, you have landed on the car you want and the payment ($600) you want, and you, wisely, don't want to shell out real coin for cap reduction just to hit that payment.

You are in the Power Position. Got nothin' to lose.

Work that lease calculator until you get to a $600 payment with the minimum drive offs you want. Tell the dealer that's what will work for you.

Might happen. Probably won't.

If you still want the car at $600, and you don't want to get snookered into paying up front cap reductions, then do the math and give the dealer the opportunity. And when they say no, tell um' you're ready to say yes if they can figure out a way to hit your numbers.

But don't cave. And, if it ain't to be, it ain't to be.

In my lifetime, I have proved, time and time again, that "no" is just the start of a conversation.

Please do not overpay for this car.


----------



## BlkBeauty (Jul 12, 2019)

I'm still thinking about your current Infiniti -- you're 6,000 under on your mileage but are still going to have to shell out close to $2K to get the damage fixed? Did the dealer tell you how he's planning on getting you out of the lease? Isn't that going to be part of the problem getting the payment you want, assuming they're going to bake their costs somewhere into your lease? 

I agree with you that there is nothing like a BMW!

P.S. I'm sorry I keep putting my .02 in when I'm not a dealer. I apologize!


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

I think a dealer discount of about 13%, minus the $2,000 incentive $, gets OP to a $600 payment with the Texas sales tax in the payment, with the Infiniti still to be dealt with.

Do BMW dealers ever do 13% discounts. Yes.

Will they on this one?

Only one way to find out.


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Hi friends - thanks again for all the sage advice, esp from 1968 and Greg, you guys have been immensely helpful on learning the ropes. Quick update since people seem interested:


Austin Dealership and I agreed that the lease target of 600 a month was untenable without significant drive off costs. He couldn't make it work, he'd have "to discount the car another $7,500" to get me there. Which is fine with me.
I've been looking around at other dealerships since Austin wouldn't budge, and found a potentially AMAZING deal (as far as purchasing goes anyway) on a M340i xDrive with the packages I want. Current price is $54,000 at 2,400 miles. They'd also work with me on taking my lease and giving me a tax credit on it, which would lower up front cost.
Driving to Dallas is a big con, especially to deal with the old lease. Austin has now started coming back with other options asking if I'd be interested in a new M340i (non-xDrive) for 57k. I told them what I was talking to BMW of Dallas about, but if he can get me a good deal on a new one, I'd be open to talking
Lowest financing on the xDrive they'll do @ 60mo is 1.9%. Austin will do 0.9%.

I also have a car I've started talking to Tulsa about but less interested in it. These are my two strongest options that I'm working between the two dealerships.



BlkBeauty said:


> I'm still thinking about your current Infiniti -- you're 6,000 under on your mileage but are still going to have to shell out close to $2K to get the damage fixed? Did the dealer tell you how he's planning on getting you out of the lease? Isn't that going to be part of the problem getting the payment you want, assuming they're going to bake their costs somewhere into your lease?
> 
> I agree with you that there is nothing like a BMW!
> 
> P.S. I'm sorry I keep putting my .02 in when I'm not a dealer. I apologize!


Yes, 100%. I'd already have very little leverage with everything I was asking for on the lease, so the small damage on the Infiniti would be pretty tough to negotiate. On the financing, it feels like my leverage is a lot stronger.


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

remistus said:


> Hi friends - thanks again for all the sage advice, esp from 1968 and Greg, you guys have been immensely helpful on learning the ropes. Quick update since people seem interested:
> 
> 
> Austin Dealership and I agreed that the lease target of 600 a month was untenable without significant drive off costs. He couldn't make it work, he'd have "to discount the car another $7,500" to get me there. Which is fine with me.
> ...


Since it rarely makes financial sense to turn in a lease early especially when you have miles to burn I'd wait to turn in until last day. I'd get Infiniti to do pre inspection so you know exactly what you will owe or need to get fixed, maybe you will be surprised in a good way?

As for new car do you really need xDrive in TX? I'd go without and save on $2K cost and vehicle weight too. Have you looked at autotrader, cars.com, cargurus, etc to see if there is a newer lower mileage car available anywhere in country that you like?

For example look at this one...might be worth a flight and nice drive home! https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for...de1=BMW&modelCode1=BMWM340I&clickType=listing


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> Austin Dealership and I agreed that the lease target of 600 a month was untenable without significant drive off costs. He couldn't make it work, he'd have "to discount the car another $7,500" to get me there. Which is fine with me.





_Another_ $7,500?

MSRP $61,105, Total Dealer Discount $7,900, Incentives $2,000, Cap Cost $51,205.
Add Sales Tax on the $51,205 Cap Cost for an Adjusted Net Cap Cost of $54,405.

Lease Money Factor .00099 = $599.37/month
Lease Money Factor .00064 = $567.71/month with 7 MSDs ($600 x 7 = $4,200 in MSDs)

I did this quickly so please check my calculations, but I think it's about spot on.

Make them tell you no to this deal, keep shopping, and let us know. They know you're shoping and you've got them calling you proposing alternatives. Tell them, "I'm glad you still want to do business. I'm shopping but I'm ready to go on the $61,105 car. Try again to make it work."

And, of course, while we are in mid-month now, as you get closer to month-end, they do get hungrier for moving units.


----------



## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

greginchi said:


> As for new car do you really need xDrive in TX? I'd go without and save on $2K cost and vehicle weight too.


That's a good point. I completely forgot you can get a RWD M340.

OP, your best negotiating leverage is in the last 10 days of the month. You may find a dealer or client advisor that needs to sell ONE MORE CAR to unlock a bonus or bigger payout. They can even lose money on your particular deal, but it will unlock enough additional profit on the other cars they sold that month to make a difference.

Identify 2 or 3 cars you are interested in. Let all three dealers know you are interested but are also looking at a different car in Dallas / Tulsa / Kookamonga. You are committed to taking delivery by the end of the month to lock in the June programs. You just don't know yet which deal is going to work best for you...

Another negotiating tactic: Tell the dealer - in writing - that you will give them perfect CSI scores as part of the deal, since you know part of their compensation is tied to that.


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

greginchi said:


> remistus said:
> 
> 
> > Hi friends - thanks again for all the sage advice, esp from 1968 and Greg, you guys have been immensely helpful on learning the ropes. Quick update since people seem interested:
> ...


I have been looking elsewhere, but haven***8217;t been looking outside of Texas as travel feels untenable given my wife is immunocompromised. I was going to go somewhere within a ~3 hour drive, which puts me at SA, Dallas, Austin, Houston. If I could get the car delivered, then it***8217;s no issue. I will def check into autotrader etc for some other deals.


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

1968BMW2800 said:


> remistus said:
> 
> 
> > Austin Dealership and I agreed that the lease target of 600 a month was untenable without significant drive off costs. He couldn't make it work, he'd have "to discount the car another $7,500" to get me there. Which is fine with me.
> ...





That was what they said, and great advice. I will do what you said with Austin and see what happens.


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

quackbury said:


> greginchi said:
> 
> 
> > As for new car do you really need xDrive in TX? I'd go without and save on $2K cost and vehicle weight too.
> ...


You are right on the return inspection, I'm going to try and get it done this week. I got the net payoff amount from Infiniti @ $26,580. I need to double check the odometer but I know for a fact I'm under mileage by a few thousand miles on my 36/12 lease.

I only was more interested in the xDrive purely for the ever-so-slightly improved acceleration. 

Thanks for the advice on the CSI scores and tactics, I will def plant that seed in the morning!


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> That was what they said, and great advice. I will do what you said with Austin and see what happens.


Austin has the car on their lot. Maybe they have a dozen interest buyers. Maybe you're the only one.

They know, or should know, that you are ready to go at your numbers.

They can do what they want, but if they want to move that unit, they know you're a buyer.

Stick to your proposal.


----------



## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

greginchi said:


> Oh. I thought he was in Austin and getting from Austin dealer.


Am in Austin, dealership is in Arizona. Only place I could find the exact car I wanted and get the deal I wanted. The car, I believe, is being shipped from Germany to AZ, then being shipped from AZ to me. Is it a reasonable ask to see if maybe they can ship the car directly from port of entry to Austin instead of the extra stop to minimize risk of damage to the car?

Also, financing was all approved! Meat is still not in the pan but it's on its way!


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> Am in Austin, dealership is in Arizona. Only place I could find the exact car I wanted and get the deal I wanted. The car, I believe, is being shipped from Germany to AZ, then being shipped from AZ to me. Is it a reasonable ask to see if maybe they can ship the car directly from port of entry to Austin instead of the extra stop to minimize risk of damage to the car?
> 
> Also, financing was all approved! Meat is still not in the pan but it's on its way!


Sounds like things are moving along nicely.

The way BMW logistics works is very, very German. The staging and loading sequence of vehicles is determined based on the offloading sequence at journey's end. So, if the ship that is scheduled to transport your car stops in the Gulf and off-loads your car, then, perhaps, ground transport can take it directly to the Austin dealer.

But, if your car is scheduled to be offloaded on the Pacific coast, that could be even more complicated.

Also, whichever BMW dealer receives the car from the vehicle processing center is then responsible for prepping the car for retail delivery. If the Austin dealer does the pre-delivery prep, then they are also responsible for the condition of the car, etc.

It's one thing for the Austin dealer to receive a car from the Arizona dealer and then hand you the keys as a courtesy. But who is doing the BMW-required delivery to you, with the BMW Genius briefing you on the car's features and all of the things on the BMWNA required checklist?

So, a simple question to the selling dealer in Arizona would be: How are we handling the delivery?

Once the logistics are clear, like which is the port of arrival and who "owns" the delivery, then options for drop-shipping from the port directly to Austin can be explored.

My 2 cents is let the Arizona dealer handle it the way they want to because, if there's a problem with the car (paint, prep, etc) you don't want to hear, "Well, we did the delivery the way you wanted and you need to talk to Austin about that scratch because we never touched the car." And then Austin says, "Hey, we just did this as a courtesy. Arizona owns any QC issues."

So, what's the scheduled port of entry?
Is there a way for the car to go directly from the port to Austin?

And then there's the wild option of:
Is there an easy way to ground my Infiniti in Arizona? If so, could be a road trip, in the era of COVID...


----------



## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

guys (and gals), he already got a deal he likes and agreed to, along with the shipping from the AZ dealer to him. Other than verifying that "I would like a covered carrier for delivery" or something, I dont feel he should be revisiting anything else at this point. Hes already "said yes" and so did the decision maker he was talking to.


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

remistus said:


> Am in Austin, dealership is in Arizona. Only place I could find the exact car I wanted and get the deal I wanted. The car, I believe, is being shipped from Germany to AZ, then being shipped from AZ to me. Is it a reasonable ask to see if maybe they can ship the car directly from port of entry to Austin instead of the extra stop to minimize risk of damage to the car?
> 
> Also, financing was all approved! Meat is still not in the pan but it's on its way!


Are you dealing with a Henry Male there? He is a personal friend at BMW N Scottsdale who I have bought a few BMWs from...very good guy...straight shooter!


----------



## SteveinArizona (Sep 12, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Sounds like things are moving along nicely.
> 
> The way BMW logistics works is very, very German. The staging and loading sequence of vehicles is determined based on the offloading sequence at journey's end. So, if the ship that is scheduled to transport your car stops in the Gulf and off-loads your car, then, perhaps, ground transport can take it directly to the Austin dealer.
> 
> ...


Arizona cars land at Oxnard and are trucked from there. I tracked my last car from the factory to the exit port in Germany to Oxnard to my dealership in North Scottsdale. I doubt you will be able to change the delivery point from Oxnard.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

SteveinArizona said:


> Arizona cars land at Oxnard and are trucked from there. I tracked my last car from the factory to the exit port in Germany to Oxnard to my dealership in North Scottsdale. I doubt you will be able to change the delivery point from Oxnard.


Road Trip! About 1,000 miles from Austin to AZ.


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

jjrandorin said:


> guys (and gals), he already got a deal he likes and agreed to, along with the shipping from the AZ dealer to him. Other than verifying that "I would like a covered carrier for delivery" or something, I dont feel he should be revisiting anything else at this point. Hes already "said yes" and so did the decision maker he was talking to.


Once again, I agree with JJ. The deal is already worked out, the OP should just leave it alone and let the dealer ship it to his house as agreed in the deal. That is, unless OP wants to fly to AZ, take delivery in-person and drive home. He can do 1k miles in two days. FWIW, with the COVID situation, I would rather the car be shipped to my front door.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

SteveinArizona said:


> Arizona cars land at Oxnard and are trucked from there. I tracked my last car from the factory to the exit port in Germany to Oxnard to my dealership in North Scottsdale. I doubt you will be able to change the delivery point from Oxnard.


You are correct. Unless things have changed, the dealer cannot change the scheduled port of entry once the car is in transit from Germany.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> *My 2 cents is let the Arizona dealer handle it the way they want to *because, if there's a problem with the car (paint, prep, etc) you don't want to hear, "Well, we did the delivery the way you wanted and you need to talk to Austin about that scratch because we never touched the car." And then Austin says, "Hey, we just did this as a courtesy. Arizona owns any QC issues."


I think we're all in agreement.


----------



## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

jjrandorin said:


> guys (and gals), he already got a deal he likes and agreed to, along with the shipping from the AZ dealer to him. Other than verifying that "I would like a covered carrier for delivery" or something, I dont feel he should be revisiting anything else at this point. Hes already "said yes" and so did the decision maker he was talking to.


I disagree, it is business (respectful). If there is a misunderstanding (major) on some point I'm going to get clarified/changed. Plus I don't think anything in writing yet on this deal.


----------



## EX-Ingolstadt (Jul 25, 2020)

Just want to say how much I***8217;ve enjoyed reading this thread. I***8217;m new to the forum, but a long time bimmer fan. Greg, JJ and 1968, you guys are amazing.

Similar to OP, I***8217;m thirsting for an M340, but nowhere near ready to take the plunge. Rather I***8217;m living vicariously through and learning from his experience. I hope you don***8217;t mind if I ping you for some wisdom or maybe talking me off the ledge later in the year.


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

Since you were doing an out of state deal you could have got another $2.5k off the purchase price. Even for a custom order. There's always next time!


----------



## EX-Ingolstadt (Jul 25, 2020)

.Rolex said:


> Since you were doing an out of state deal you could have got another $2.5k off the purchase price. Even for a custom order. There's always next time!


Can you explain this comment for us newbs? Is that an AZ-specific issue or is that universal?


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

.Rolex said:


> *Since you were doing an out of state deal you could have got another $2.5k off the purchase price.* Even for a custom order. There's always next time!


Where would that $2,500 come from? If it's an additional available incentive, it can still be added to OP's deal as the car has yet to be delivered. Hasn't even arrived at the port yet.

Please elaborate.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Where would that $2,500 come from? If it's an additional available incentive, it can still be added to OP's deal as the car has yet to be delivered. Hasn't even arrived at the port yet.
> 
> Please elaborate.


Well, this guy posted the below about his own car dealing experiences...so beware! :rofl:

we got a $24000 camry, put 10k down, and we were paying $555 a month @60 months with all the extras and things they packaged in without telling us (packed it into the stated monthly payment)

we got rid of the car a year later and had negative equity so we had to shell out a couple k


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## SteveinArizona (Sep 12, 2016)

EX-Ingolstadt said:


> Can you explain this comment for us newbs? Is that an AZ-specific issue or is that universal?


I live in Arizona and I am not aware of any specific Arizona benefits vs. Texas. On my prior car, my dealership found it in Utah and I had to pay the shipping charge for the dealerships to ship it from Utah to North Scottsdale. All the pricing incentives were standard or simply negotiated with the dealership. Nothing special to Arizona.


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

greginchi said:


> Well, this guy posted the below about his own car dealing experiences...so beware! :rofl:
> 
> we got a $24000 camry, put 10k down, and we were paying $555 a month @60 months with all the extras and things they packaged in without telling us (packed it into the stated monthly payment)
> 
> we got rid of the car a year later and had negative equity so we had to shell out a couple k


Yeah and I was 17, that was my single mother who got the vehicle and negotiated with monthly payment. For purchase. Then I learned how to negotiate and handled all future vehicles (I'm 26 now). Leased many cars since then all 0 down tax included: 535i (610/mo), 535d (519/mo, 328d (399/mo), i8 (1100/mo), giulia ti (468/mo), 430i gc (380/mo), 330i (311/mo) and many more

I love how you picked that out when I posted this lease deal I negotiated and signed (was a demo):

MSRP: $52925
Sales Price: $39925
MF: .00138
15k/year

Car has 2800 miles on it.

Drive off: $414
Monthly payment: $414 (including 9% sales tax).

As for the extra 4%, not hard to get it from a motivated dealer. Even our Jon Shafer went 2.5k back of invoice before incentives on a vehicle we leased before. I know a couple advertising 11-12% off on all custom BMW orders on other forums.

You're really mad just cause I told op he left money on the table for next time? lol..


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Where would that $2,500 come from? If it's an additional available incentive, it can still be added to OP's deal as the car has yet to be delivered. Hasn't even arrived at the port yet.
> 
> Please elaborate.


There's several dealers offering 11-12% on custom orders and in stock vehicles. Advertised on other forums. Just using that as a baseline for now. Even if you factor in shipping, OP comes out ahead regardless.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

.Rolex said:


> There's several dealers offering 11-12% on custom orders and in stock vehicles. Advertised on other forums. Just using that as a baseline for now. Even if you factor in shipping, OP comes out ahead regardless.


So, this "extra $2500" you are talking about is a "spitball" number based on "discount you think the OP should get" vs some additional rebate for purchasing out of state or something, which is what it sounded like when you first posted it.

Thanks for clearing that up.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

.Rolex said:


> greginchi said:
> 
> 
> > Well, this guy posted the below about his own car dealing experiences...so beware!
> ...


Not mad at all. Your wording on original post was just poor/confusing.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

.Rolex said:


> There's several dealers offering 11-12% on custom orders and in stock vehicles. Advertised on other forums. Just using that as a baseline for now. Even if you factor in shipping, OP comes out ahead regardless.


Thanks for the clarification.

Your list of lease deals you've done shows what, in some instances, is possible.

Getting back to your assertion that OP could save an additional $2,500 on his deal -- and you did make it as an assertion, indicating that $2,500 additional savings was there as a certainty -- it would be helpful if you could lay out _exactly how_ that additional $2,500 savings can be found in this deal.

I don't think it's there, on this car, in this situation. But if you will please take us through how you arrived at the conclusion that OP left $2,500 on the table _on this deal_, we will all be enlightened.

Thank you.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Great. Now we've got a 26-year-old telling all us Boomers how it should be done. Can probably tell us how to get a deal on a Rolex too (as if anyone still wears one). Maybe he can school all the regulars on Leasehackr, too?

The newest addition to my Ignore list...

OP you did just fine. Might you have gotten a better deal on a car in a color combination you didn't like, with a weird combination of options, that had sat unloved in the corner of a dealer's lot for 18 months till the GSM said "Make this go away!"? Sure. But as Uber-mensch 1968 reminds us all, you drive the car, not the deal. Enjoy your new whip.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

quackbury said:


> Great. Now we've got a 26-year-old telling all us Boomers how it should be done. Can probably tell us how to get a deal on a Rolex too (as if anyone still wears one). Maybe he can school all the regulars on Leasehackr, too?
> 
> The newest addition to my Ignore list...
> 
> OP you did just fine. Might you have gotten a better deal on a car in a color combination you didn't like, with a weird combination of options, that had sat unloved in the corner of a dealer's lot for 18 months till the GSM said "Make this go away!"? Sure. But as Uber-mensch 1968 reminds us all, you drive the car, not the deal. Enjoy your new whip.


No boomer here...LOL

He said he was 26 and detailed 7 leases already?!...maybe one of those $30K/year millionaires?!

Hopefully not one of half this country who couldn't pay an emergency $400 bill...and that poll was before virus so most likely even higher percentage now...unless he is getting that extra $600/wk which is going away soon...:eeps::angel:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

quackbury said:


> OP you did just fine. Might you have gotten a better deal on a car in a color combination you didn't like, with a weird combination of options, that had sat unloved in the corner of a dealer's lot for 18 months till the GSM said "Make this go away!"? Sure. But as Uber-mensch 1968 reminds us all, you drive the car, not the deal. Enjoy your new whip.


I agree that OP did fine -- quite well I thought.

As to the Ubermensch honorific, well, I am humbled, but, as his butler Jeeves pointed out to Bertie Wooster, "you would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound." 

We do, however, continue striving to rise.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

Man, all this excitement...I want to buy something other than groceries!!!:rofl:


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Your list of lease deals you've done shows what, in some instances, is possible.
> 
> ...


No worries! Well yeah not certainty, as I stated from a motivated dealer. There's several on leasehackr doing 11-12% on custom orders. I have a contact at a so-cal dealership (gm), a very old work buddy of Jon Shafer who would go at 11.5%.

For example, this guy here just got 2% off more than OP https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/2020-bmw-m340xi-543-w-tax/278324


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

quackbury said:


> Great. Now we've got a 26-year-old telling all us Boomers how it should be done. Can probably tell us how to get a deal on a Rolex too (as if anyone still wears one). Maybe he can school all the regulars on Leasehackr, too?
> 
> The newest addition to my Ignore list...
> 
> OP you did just fine. Might you have gotten a better deal on a car in a color combination you didn't like, with a weird combination of options, that had sat unloved in the corner of a dealer's lot for 18 months till the GSM said "Make this go away!"? Sure. But as Uber-mensch 1968 reminds us all, you drive the car, not the deal. Enjoy your new whip.


Funny cause there are posts this month all over leasehackr with deals that are a few points better than 8% on a m340i


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

greginchi said:


> No boomer here...LOL
> 
> He said he was 26 and detailed 7 leases already?!...maybe one of those $30K/year millionaires?!
> 
> Hopefully not one of half this country who couldn't pay an emergency $400 bill...and that poll was before virus so most likely even higher percentage now...unless he is getting that extra $600/wk which is going away soon...:eeps::angel:


here's one of my savings accounts but I'm done here.. call me a liar if you want. Just hilarious and low of you to need to talk about someone else's income. What if I was someone poor, you see a need to make fun of less fortunate?

Sounds like a **** personality if you have to drag someones income into the mix.

I've gotten 3 leases directly from Jon Shafer, and he knows of several more I've gotten from other people since he's a friend of my family.


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

.Rolex said:


> here's one of my savings accounts but I'm done here.. call me a liar if you want. I've gotten 3 leases directly from Jon Shafer, and he knows of several more I've gotten from other people since he's a friend of my family.


None of that has anything at all to do with the OP in this thread saving another 2500 on the deal on his car, which is not a demo with 2800 miles on it.

Great for you that your savings account has good money in it, but it has zero to do with this OP saving more money on his deal. Maybe he could maybe he couldnt, but hes happy with it, and just throwing out some number out of the blue you think he "could save" is irresponsible... unless you can lay out the numbers and are planning to contact his dealer for him and negotiate for the additional discount on his behalf.


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

jjrandorin said:


> None of that has anything at all to do with the OP in this thread saving another 2500 on the deal on his car, which is not a demo with 2800 miles on it.
> 
> Great for you that your savings account has good money in it, but it has zero to do with this OP saving more money on his deal. Maybe he could maybe he couldnt, but hes happy with it, and just throwing out some number out of the blue you think he "could save" is irresponsible... unless you can lay out the numbers and are planning to contact his dealer for him and negotiate for the additional discount on his behalf.


I agree this post is not relevant to op. At this point the guy I'm arguing with is just an asshole and I'm done responding to him.

It wasn't just an arbitrary number, I checked other forums for reference of what is possible. I agree, it may not have been the most responsible to tell OP he could get it.

However, the way I see it. If you ping enough dealers you will get the deal done. As stated there are several dealers offering 11-12% at buy-rate less incentives on ALL custom orders.

Now, I'll admit.. For me personally an extra 80$/mo savings wouldn't be a deal breaker if I love the car. Was just informing OP of what I've seen others accomplish this month.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

.Rolex said:


> greginchi said:
> 
> 
> > No boomer here...LOL
> ...


Sorry you just seem clueless and I was worried you were gonna be homeless in one of your great lease deals...lol

Aren't you the dip**** that blamed totalling a car driving too fast in rain on tires?!


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

greginchi said:


> Sorry you just seem clueless and I was worried you were gonna be homeless in one of your great lease deals...lol


yeah clueless when there are people all over leasehackr getting more than 8% off on a m340i this month


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

.Rolex said:


> greginchi said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry you just seem clueless and I was worried you were gonna be homeless in one of your great lease deals...lol
> ...


Your first post was clueless and a lot of your past posts clueless so I doubt anybody should listen to anything you say. Move on asshat. Ps he didn't have time to custom order.


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

greginchi said:


> Your first post was clueless and a lot of your past posts clueless so I doubt anybody should listen to anything you say. Move on asshat. Ps he didn't have time to custom order.


Since we want to talk about incomes. Yours is obviously lower cause you're a ****ing dumbass. Clearly and obviously your time isn't valued, and you're compensated appropriately.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

.Rolex said:


> greginchi said:
> 
> 
> > Your first post was clueless and a lot of your past posts clueless so I doubt anybody should listen to anything you say. Move on asshat. Ps he didn't have time to custom order.
> ...


Asshat:
I hydroplaned on a rainy day and had a roll over. Luckily I am ok and without a scratch

I blame the tires as I was driving speed limit and they had 27k on them without replacement


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

.Rolex said:


> greginchi said:
> 
> 
> > Your first post was clueless and a lot of your past posts clueless so I doubt anybody should listen to anything you say. Move on asshat. Ps he didn't have time to custom order.
> ...


Lmao. Man you are right again!


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## .Rolex (Mar 23, 2013)

@op for future reference just use leasehackr forums, lots of good people there will review your future dealings. Also there are lots of shared deals/posts you can research to get a better idea of what is achievable.

There's a reason this board is dead, idiots here just talk nonsense instead of helping.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

.Rolex said:


> @op for future reference just use leasehackr forums, lots of good people there will review your future dealings. Also there are lots of shared deals/posts you can research to get a better idea of what is achievable.
> 
> There's a reason this board is dead, idiots here just talk nonsense instead of helping.


Well if you read this entire string there really was no nonsense posted until you showed up...


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

.Rolex said:


> Since you were doing an out of state deal you could have got another $2.5k off the purchase price. Even for a custom order. There's always next time!


I feel a little bad because I do have a sensitive BS/DS meter...but...in a 200+ post string filled with advice from some really educated BMW posters this is the nonsensical, passive aggressive 'you know better' post you put up after not having posted in a couple years...along with your slightly douchey user name of rolex...and a dismal post history showing an accident that was really your fault at excessive speed on tires you knew were a bit worn (I'm thankful you hurt nobody else)...you might want to tip toe in a little more gracefully next time. My $0.02 :thumbup::angel:

Also, most of us here research and get a great deal compared to the masses but we (me at least) don't need the best deal in the country...I have dealt with only a couple dealers for my BMWs over the last couple decades and I get great deals but not the best in country because I want my dealer 'friend' to make some money and I also enjoy the relationship I have with them...I also try to do the little things for them that helps to bring in $ for the dealer, such as finance and wait the 4 months to pay off so they get compensation and not just pay off first month, etc.


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## rounderman (Apr 26, 2016)

.Rolex said:


> @op for future reference just use leasehackr forums, lots of good people there will review your future dealings. Also there are lots of shared deals/posts you can research to get a better idea of what is achievable.
> 
> There's a reason this board is dead, idiots here just talk nonsense instead of helping.


If you had read the whole post, the OP is BUYING the car not leasing, and he is in Texas which based on reading of the posts about Texas, it appears to be a very unfriendly lease state. Personally I feel it is in poor judgement to come in after the deal is done and tell someone they really F'ed up the deal. I agree with the other posters based on the circumstances, timing, etc. this was a great deal for the OP which in the end is all that matters. Your situation is different and thus you do different deals. If yo feel that strongly about it , reach out to the OP directly and tell the OP exactly how they can get the deal you think he should have gotten. Publicly berating the OP to make him feel bad and you feel superior is a sign of immaturity at any age

Good luck on your next deal(s) (seriously I hope you do as well as you want and you stay safe through all this


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## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

1968BMW2800 said:


> You are well on your way to earning your official Bimmerfest Decoder Ring.
> 
> Now you got me thinkin' about that $30 they slipped past me last fall.


Dude. It's 30 bucks. LET IT GO.

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Dude. It***8217;s 30 bucks. LET IT GO.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


So says my wife...

But I'll get it back on the next deal ... _must do another deal to get my $30 back_


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> Dude. It's 30 bucks. LET IT GO.


Says the guy who spreadsheets everything to the 12th decimal point. You could at least offer to help a brother out by setting up a Go Fund Me for the $30 bucks.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

quackbury said:


> Says the guy who spreadsheets everything to the 12th decimal point. You could at least offer to help a brother out by setting up a Go Fund Me for the $30 bucks.


:thumbup:

Actually, if you guys do a Go Fund Me, then I won't have the excuse to go do another car deal to have the pleasure of paying another lease fee in order to claw back my $30.. So, leave it alone and let me pout.

Meanwhile, OP is getting dangerously close to becoming a BMW owner, at the right price. If he stays vigilant.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Went through all the documentation. Everything except that $525 checked out. I had to fedex the papers today in order to not delay shipping another ~half a week. The sales manager agreed (in writing) to write me a check for the $525 that's now being financed plus interest (totaling $537 at 0.9/60). 

Papers are on their way back to AZ. Will find out tomorrow when my baby arrives! 

They also sent a video of the car (not great resolution). I'll take a quick screencap as a preview and share with you guys in a couple of minutes. Better pictures on delivery!


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Small preview!


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## jjrandorin (May 8, 2013)

remistus said:


> Went through all the documentation. Everything except that $525 checked out. I had to fedex the papers today in order to not delay shipping another ~half a week. The sales manager agreed (in writing) to write me a check for the $525 that's now being financed plus interest (totaling $537 at 0.9/60).
> 
> Papers are on their way back to AZ. Will find out tomorrow when my baby arrives!
> 
> They also sent a video of the car (not great resolution). I'll take a quick screencap as a preview and share with you guys in a couple of minutes. Better pictures on delivery!


You are certainly a long, long way from the @remistus who was at the beginning of this thread, looking for help.

Truly, "teach a person how to fish" thread here, lol.

Nice find on that "accident" and also getting in writing the reimbursement, along with the interest you will be charged. Its probably better for them that its in the deal and refunding you, for whatever their internal numbers are (the sales manager would know that).

Also sounds like your spouse is a real trooper, so get her something nice for listening to you babble on about "new BMWs" for a couple months :rofl::thumbup:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> Small preview!


Looks like the meat's almost in the pan!!

Sweet.


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## BlkBeauty (Jul 12, 2019)

Wow, your sales manager was more honest than mine when he snuck in a $600 maintenance plan on my lease. Eventually he refunded the money, but just the $600. Then I had to bug him for the $72 interest, which he finally sent.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Everyone at the dealership I've worked with has been great so far. If y'all ever need a BMW, Chapman Chandler in AZ seem like pretty upstanding people.

Also, all done officially! Car will arrive in Austin in about a week, maybe less.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

Also as promised, my sister ended up being in the market for a new car. I helped get her another 4% dealer discount and saved her about $30 a month on her new car today! Spreading the knowledge.


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## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

remistus said:


> Also as promised, my sister ended up being in the market for a new car. I helped get her another 4% dealer discount and saved her about $30 a month on her new car today! Spreading the knowledge.


It looks like your future will include consulting family and friends on car deals, which happen to be a tradition among festers on this sub-forum.


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> Also as promised, my sister ended up being in the market for a new car. I helped get her another 4% dealer discount and saved her about $30 a month on her new car today! Spreading the knowledge.


Let the good "car-ma" flow.

Positive vibes come back around.

We will be expecting you to share expert advice with newbies who stumble into this forum and are sometimes helped... before the sharks get them.

:thumbup:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Welcome. You can get lots of guidance from very experienced folks on this Forum. And you'll receive a fair share of abuse, which is, in this location, how some show their love and respect.


Promises made/promises kept.


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## gohawks23 (Oct 27, 2008)

remistus said:


> Also as promised, my sister ended up being in the market for a new car. I helped get her another 4% dealer discount and saved her about $30 a month on her new car today! Spreading the knowledge.


:thumbup::bigpimp:

PS, actually bought my first BMW from Chapman BMW...at the time the only BMW dealer in Phoenix area...on McDowell near Scottsdale Rd.


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

greginchi said:


> :thumbup::bigpimp:
> 
> PS, actually bought my first BMW from Chapman BMW...at the time the only BMW dealer in Phoenix area...on McDowell near Scottsdale Rd.


It seems there are a bunch of Chapman's in Phoenix now. I've been working with the Chapman Chandler dealership. Very positive experience with those guys!

I've got BMW Connect on my phone now and I can see the location of the car. Making the wait that much worse. :rofl:


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> I've got BMW Connect on my phone now and I can see the location of the car. Making the wait that much worse. :rofl:


Oh you are one of us now. No going back.

Fortunately for you, due to COVID restrictions, the initiation ceremony will be delayed. :yikes:


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## remistus (Jul 12, 2020)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Oh you are one of us now. No going back.
> 
> Fortunately for you, due to COVID restrictions, the initiation ceremony will be delayed. :yikes:


:rofl:

Wednesday confirmed delivery! Keep your eyes out for pics!


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## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

remistus said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Wednesday confirmed delivery! Keep your eyes out for pics!


Be sure to use your app to track the car's journey... hourly.

On my last car, I watched it transit the Panama Canal in real time.

Some people do not understand this behavior...... but _we_ do.


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## quackbury (Dec 17, 2005)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Fortunately for you, due to COVID restrictions, the initiation ceremony will be delayed. :yikes:


Damn shame. I never understood the attraction for sheep till I had my ceremony. Now there is no going back. Getting branded with a red hot poker was a bit much, though.


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