# Formula 1 2008 <<<<SPOILER>>>>



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

*With 2007 almost behind us, here's your opportunity to talk about 2008. Have at it...*


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## Jeremy - BMW (Feb 7, 2007)

going to be going through some major withdrawl...one heck of a season though!


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

:thumbup: :rofl:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I'm ready to get 08 started. I'm going with Kimi again.


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## E36FewInNumber (May 19, 2007)

I'm with either Kimi or Alonso, interested on where he is going to go, can't see him at Mclaren anymore.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

E36FewInNumber said:


> I'm with either Kimi or Alonso, interested on where he is going to go, can't see him at Mclaren anymore.


If Ron kissed Alonso's ass and made him number one Ron would have a super motivated two time champ working for him.

But is Ron big enough for that? I doubt it. I think we wants to make a personal statement and kick Alonso's sassy a s s out of the team to show everyone he is in charge.


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## Test_Engineer (Sep 11, 2004)

I'll wait for the all the driver swaps to happen, but basically I am still sticking with Big Red and Kimi!


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

Now we have the "too cold gas" thing. Ron Dennis needs to go away...far, far away. Starting to show a pattern here isn't it. What's wrong with Formula 1? Englishmen, they're all starting to look like "certified half-wits".


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

woody underwood said:


> Now we have the "too cold gas" thing. Ron Dennis needs to go away...far, far away. Starting to show a pattern here isn't it. What's wrong with Formula 1? Englishmen, they're all starting to look like "certified half-wits".


Isn't this an 07 issue?


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

Any guess who will be Hamilton's teammate next year? Rosberg or Kovalainen? Both are RD kind of guy, clean cut and well spoken.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Rosberg.

Which leads to another interesting question: who will drive for Williams?

If Nakajima is one of the drivers, the team may run out of pit crewman quite soon.  :rofl:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Rosberg.
> 
> Which leads to another interesting question: who will drive for Williams?
> 
> ...


:yikes: There may have to be a new rule that the crew can't approach the car until it's at a dead stop. After all, The Turd's main objective is safety. Surely that extends to the crews. One-stop strategies could gain in popularity.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

With an FIA agent in all pits signaling when the car has stopped. 

Boy I can see the trouble with that already.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I wonder what happened to that crewman. He took one for the team!

Is Nakajima the next Takuma Sato?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> I wonder what happened to that crewman. He took one for the team!
> 
> Is Nakajima the next Takuma Sato?
> UOTE]
> ...


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Good to hear. And good thing thing that Nakajima was not on a 3 stop race! :bigpimp:


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## dinanm3atl (Sep 26, 2007)

NO TC - Lots of turmoil around the paddock!

Going to be a GREAT season!

150 or so days till Melbourne!


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

dinanm3atl said:


> ...
> 
> 150 or so days till Melbourne!


That's the most depressing thing I've read in a long time.:bawling:


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## dinanm3atl (Sep 26, 2007)

Sorry


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

No worries! A lot is going to happen between now and the opening race.

Heck, even Räikkönen sobered up enough to catch a plane back to Switzerland today with Massa (they live in the same village)!

:bigpimp:


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

mrbelk said:


> I believe that no new innovations are permitted to the motor; that's why specimens from every engine builder were submitted to the FIA for "homologation" at the end of the 2006 season.
> 
> I believe that only changes made to enhance reliability or safety are permitted and subsequently scrutinized to make sure that they offer no performance gains. Plus, only top-end mods are permitted; so no changes to the block architecture, crankshaft, bearings, etc.
> 
> -MrB


Oh man. That's horrible. How much can we bet that rules gets rescinded in 12-24 months after the start of next season?


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

berford said:


> Congratulations on choosing the perfect smilie for that comment.:thumbup:


"Look at those tires cuuuuurashing over the cuuuuuurbs!"

"Man, I love the cccaaaaaars cuuuurashing over the kuurbs!"

"Look at the hands on that steering wheel! So smooth!" "Derek, why don't you tell the viewers about all those buttons..." "I will, but first, look at how Kimi cuuuuuuraaaaaaaaashes his wheels over those red and white kuuuuurbs......"

OH FOR F%$#'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!! SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Motown328 said:


> Yes, that is true and Theissen has been very modest in his expectations. But, one can always hope, especially with the current volitility at the top teams right now and all the unhappiness. BMW-Sauber has been a pretty happy place in recent times save for the JV blow-up.


Yes, pretty happy place. But consistent wins are at best a couple of years out. The Ferrari's aren't likely to blow up anytime soon. Plus there's a lot of uncertainty re. driver line ups that could make for big challenges.


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## 617arg (Aug 4, 2004)

mrbelk said:


> I believe that no new innovations are permitted to the motor; that's why specimens from every engine builder were submitted to the FIA for "homologation" at the end of the 2006 season.
> 
> I believe that only changes made to enhance reliability or safety are permitted and subsequently scrutinized to make sure that they offer no performance gains. Plus, only top-end mods are permitted; so no changes to the block architecture, crankshaft, bearings, etc.
> 
> -MrB


I just saw this article from WIRED: http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/11/formula_one

Sounds like some interesting developments.

some quotes:

......."the sport's ruling body has said, "Enough," and banned further investment in F1 engines. Teams must now focus on hybrid systems and other eco-friendly means of producing power.

"For Formula 1 to do this is a big step forward," said Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of Green Car Journal. "It will bring a lot of new technology to street cars."

and further down in the same article: "Kinetic-energy recovery systems, which make their F1 debut in 2009, are one area where F1 is already advancing green car technology."

"At least one F1 team -- no one will say which, citing the sport's intensely competitive and highly secretive atmosphere -- has ordered a kinetic-energy recovery system developed by the British firms Torotrak, Xtrac and Flybrid Systems. The system will generate as much as 80 horsepower without burning an additional drop of fuel."


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I believe that system is a flywheel type.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

617arg said:


> I just saw this article from WIRED: http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/11/formula_one
> 
> Sounds like some interesting developments.
> 
> ...


Interesting. 500 hp hybrids! WHOOOHOOOO!!!!


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

berford said:


> Yes, pretty happy place. But consistent wins are at best a couple of years out. The Ferrari's aren't likely to blow up anytime soon. Plus there's a lot of uncertainty re. driver line ups that could make for big challenges.


I think the driver line-up, maybe not the Friday testers however, are pretty solid and stable at BMW. Nick and Robert seem to like each other.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Reading the article confirms it is a flywheel system. A small flywheel that turns very fast or even multiple flywheels.

One of the big auto mfgs has already said that we will not see flywheel systems on regular road cars. I think it was cost and safety


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Motown328 said:


> "Look at those tires cuuuuurashing over the cuuuuuurbs!"
> 
> "Man, I love the cccaaaaaars cuuuurashing over the kuurbs!"
> 
> ...


I think I posted a comment here in 2006 that was much the same.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Motown328 said:


> Interesting. 500 hp hybrids! WHOOOHOOOO!!!!


Currently F1 motors are putting out around 750 hp. Hybrids are due in 2009.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Motown328 said:


> I think the driver line-up, maybe not the Friday testers however, are pretty solid and stable at BMW. Nick and Robert seem to like each other.


Sorry, I didn't intend to confuse the issue. I meant drivers at other teams (e.g., where will Fernando end up.) Re. the BMW line up, you're spot on--it's a very good team all around.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

franka said:


> Currently F1 motors are putting out around 750 hp. Hybrids are due in 2009.


Right, but I couldn't be _that_ optimistic for hybrids...not just yet anyway.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

So, Alonso is done at McLaren. Interesting!

If Barrichello ends up having to move to Super Aguri, does this open the door for Alonso to drive a ****ing Honda next year?

The rumor I heard yesterday, was that during negotiations between McLaren and Alonso's people, Ron refused to let Alonso out if he went to a top tier team. So Red Bull Racing and Williams were the two teams that Dennis agreed to.

Strange days.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

It has now been confirmed on McLaren's web page.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Who's going to drive next to Hamilton? And will Ron still stick to driver equality?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

F1Crazy said:


> Who's going to drive next to Hamilton? And will Ron still stick to driver equality?


There are two choices at this time: Rosberg or Kovalainen.

Both of those drivers will demand to have the same car as Hamilton.

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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Patrick said:


> There are two choices at this time: Rosberg or Kovalainen.
> 
> Both of those drivers will demand to have the same car as Hamilton.
> 
> .


I'm a big fan of young Rosberg but it would be a mistake to join McLaren. In fact any young star joining McLaren right now will only suffer as Hamilton will always be Ron's #1.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

F1Crazy said:


> I'm a big fan of young Rosberg but it would be a mistake to join McLaren. In fact any young star joining McLaren right now will only suffer as Hamilton will always be Ron's #1.


It is the same (or possibly worse) situation for Kovalainen - if having two drivers that both just finished their rookie season on the same team.

If I had to bet on it, my guess would be Rosberg. Then they would finally have a German driving a Mercedes-Benz. Nordberg Haug would love that.

That said, McLaren has had pretty good luck with Finnish drivers in the last 11 years.

Realistically, who else could it be? Häkkinen? LOL.

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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Ron Dennis may have blown the only season he had both the car and the drivers (plural)to win a championship.

Who wants to bet that Lewis is number one on the team next year?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Alonso 'free to sign for any team' 

By Alan Baldwin Friday, November 2nd 2007, 15:06 GMT 


The race to sign up Fernando Alonso swept into overdrive on Friday after McLaren formally ended their troubled relationship with the double world champion.

Alonso's manager Luis Garcia Abad told Spanish media the Formula One driver was "free to sign for any team next season" and there will be no shortage of offers for the 26-year-old Spaniard.

His former employers Renault, led by flamboyant Italian Flavio Briatore, have already made it very clear that they want him back.

However, the French team may not be Alonso's first choice, even if they are prepared to pay the many millions he will surely demand as the hottest property on the market.

Renault, who took him to titles in 2005 and 2006 and have yet to confirm their driver line-up for 2008, were miles off the pace this year and there are no guarantees their new car will be any better.

Asked 10 days ago if that remained his favoured option, Alonso told Spain's Cadena Ser radio station: "No, right now I'd say no".

Toyota, with one of the biggest budgets in the paddock, have a declared vacancy following the departure of Germany's Ralf Schumacher.

But the Cologne-based team have yet to win a Grand Prix, let alone mount a serious championship challenge, since their debut in 2002.

Ferrari would be the most attractive proposition but they have newly-crowned world champion Kimi Raikkonen and Brazilian Felipe Massa under contract to the end of 2009 and 2010 respectively.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo lauded the Spaniard last week, calling him "world class in every sense, an extraordinary driver" but that does not mean Alonso is Maranello-bound any time soon.

"I have to disappoint all of Fernando's fans - I don't think anything will happen in that direction in the next three years," Ferrari's former champion Michael Schumacher said last week.

BMW Sauber, runners-up to Ferrari in the championship after leaders McLaren were stripped of all their points after a spying controversy, also have plenty of potential.

The German team are targeting wins in 2008 but have Germany's Nick Heidfeld and Poland's Robert Kubica under contract.

Red Bull, with Renault engines and top designer Adrian Newey, are bankrolled by Austrian billionaire Dietrich Mateschitz and have big ambitions.

They have been talked of increasingly as a potential short-term home for the Spaniard before he focuses on broader opportunities from 2009.

Red Bull have Mark Webber and Briton David Coulthard under contract for 2008 but the Australian is managed by Renault's Briatore and could find himself caught up in the merry-go-round.

That same driver shuffle, according to paddock pundits, could also see Renault's young Finnish rookie Heikki Kovalainen head to McLaren.

Williams, former champions and more competitive than Red Bull this season, have also been mentioned - particularly if their highly-rated German Nico Rosberg takes the Spaniard's place at McLaren.

The Toyota-powered team have a vacancy, with Austrian Alexander Wurz retiring, but have not won a race since 2004 and would have to dig deep into limited resources to secure a driver of Alonso's standing.

After the mutual split with McLaren, the decision will be Alonso's to make and he will want to do it with more calm than he has had in recent months.

"I have some idea of what I want to do, a plan or a hope," he told Spain's Telecinco at the weekend. "I know what I'd like to do next year but I don't know if it's possible."


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Quick Nick aced the field. That's all you need to know.


Do you mean yesterday's (Tuesday's) test results? :dunno:

If so, Heidfeld's car was on slicks, while everyone else was on regular rubber.

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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Sorry, both Heidfeld and Button were using slicks - both were the fastest on Tuesday.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

McLaren correct spy briefing errors 

By Jonathan Noble Wednesday, December 5th 2007, 18:47 GMT 


McLaren have moved to clear up inaccuracies in recent reports surrounding the Renault spy case that goes in front of the FIA tomorrow.

Ahead of tomorrow's World Motor Sport Council hearing into Renault's possession of McLaren information, which had been brought to them by engineer Phil Mackereth, McLaren have corrected errors in a recent press briefing that was issued on behalf of the team.

The briefing, which was widely reported in the international media, revolved around the extent to which the McLaren information at the centre of the case had permeated inside the Renault team.

McLaren state that the FIA has requested them to correct wrong information given in the briefing.

The full statement says: 

"The FIA has asked us to correct certain factual errors contained in a press briefing given on our behalf by one journalist concerning Renault F1 and we are pleased to do so. The corrections are as follows.

"In our briefing, we stated that there were 18 witness statements from Renault employees admitting that they had viewed McLaren confidential information.

"To the extent that this implied that 18 different Renault employees admitted viewing McLaren confidential information it was inaccurate. 13 Renault F1 employees provided 18 witness statements and 9 of them have so far admitted they viewed and discussed the confidential technical information belonging to McLaren.

"We stated that the confidential information on computer disks was uploaded onto 11 Renault computers.

"This is not accurate. Mr Mackereth copied information onto 11 computer disks. The information on these 11 computer disks was uploaded by Renault IT staff in September 2006 onto Renault's T: drive and then transferred by Mr Mackereth to his personal home directory stored on Renault's network server. A back up copy of the material on Mr Mackereth's personal directory was made onto an unknown number of Renault's back up servers/tapes.

"Our briefing could have been interpreted as suggesting that the Renault employees who admitted sight of McLaren Confidential Information all viewed it on computer screens.

"Only Mr Mackereth and Mr Hardie admit viewing McLaren Confidential Information on Mr Mackereth's computer. The other seven employees who have admitted seeing McLaren Confidential Information admit seeing it in the form of computer print outs or hard copy documents.

"We said that the information on the 11 computer disks taken by Mr Mackereth included 780 individual drawings.

"This was an error. The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out. The 11 computer disks included 18 individual technical drawings. Mr Mackereth also admits that he took hard copy drawings of McLaren's dampers.

"We said that the McLaren information amounted to the "entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren car".

"This requires clarification. The position is that, the McLaren drawings plus the information in a confidential MP4 - 22A Specification document taken by Mr Mackereth constitute a technical definition of the fundamental layout of the 2007 McLaren car and the technical details of its innovative and performance enhancing systems.

"We are pleased to assist the FIA in making the above clear in advance of tomorrow's hearing."

While Renault's hearing takes place in Monaco tomorrow, the FIA is also due to rule on the legality of McLaren's 2008 challenger on Friday following investigations into whether any Ferrari information has been used in its design.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Sorry, both Heidfeld and Button were using slicks - both were the fastest on Tuesday.
> 
> .


Over here, we generally get Tuesday results on Wednesday. Although Formula1.com shows the article as 5 December, they are reporting results from 4 December. Yes, they were both on slicks, but Button was second--not an identical time.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Over here, we generally get Tuesday results on Wednesday. Although Formula1.com shows the article as 5 December, they are reporting results from 4 December. Yes, they were both on slicks, but Button was second--not an identical time.


I meant that they both had the fastest times of the day, Heidfeld first, Button second.

Today (Wednesday), Hamilton was fastest on normal rubber and Coulthard (on slicks) was second.

Tomorrow, Hamilton will have a shot at beating Spoonface with the same tyres. That should be interesting!

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> I meant that they both had the fastest times of the day, Heidfeld first, Button second.
> 
> Today (Wednesday), Hamilton was fastest on normal rubber and Coulthard (on slicks) was second.
> 
> Tomorrow, Hamilton will have a shot at beating Spoonface with the same tyres. That should be interesting! .


I believe they were both running last year's cars with traction control and other driver aides while the rest ran 08 cars.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> I believe they were both running last year's cars with traction control and other driver aides while the rest ran 08 cars.


Really? I read that the point of these last tests is to try the 2007 cars *without* TC, and those that want to with help from Bridgestone, may try slicks in light of rules changes planned for 2009.

What teams have their 2008 cars ready? :dunno:

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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Really? I read that the point of these last tests is to try the 2007 cars *without* TC, and those that want to with help from Bridgestone, may try slicks in light of rules changes planned for 2009.
> 
> What teams have their 2008 cars ready? :dunno: .


That's what i read. I can surmise that by running last years cars they have a lot of data to compare to the cars with slicks.

Several different programs were happening at the tests

The rest ran 08 software.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> I meant that they both had the fastest times of the day, Heidfeld first, Button second.
> 
> Today (Wednesday), Hamilton was fastest on normal rubber and Coulthard (on slicks) was second.
> 
> ...


Interesting indeed. Any bets?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Flavio says he will sue McLaren over spying if the FIA does nothing to McLaren.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Interesting indeed. Any bets?


Tough call! I will give it to MSchumacher. 

I have not seen the times for today either - it is Independence Day here and we have been :beerchug:

:bigpimp:

Also, Räikkönen has said that 2009 will NOT be the last year that he races in Formula 1 (ending speculation that he would retire when his current contract ends). He went on to say that Ferrari is the only team that he will ever drive for.

And there is a new MSchumacher + Räikkönen commercial for FIAT that is supposedly really funny. I will try to find it and post a link.

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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdHkMTV0F38&feature=related

It is in German, but the point of the commercial is that MSchumacher won't stop talking about the car. So, Kimi says, "did we come here to drive, or talk?"

He then tosses the keys to Spoonface, and he says, "Are you sure that you want to see a retired person drive?"

:rofl:

Not a direct translation, but that was what was said on Finnish MTV3 F1 page about the commercial.

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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Tough call! I will give it to MSchumacher.
> 
> I have not seen the times for today either - it is Independence Day here and we have been :beerchug:
> 
> ...


My money's on Spoonface, too. Put him in a Spyker and I'd still have a hard time betting against him. Well, maybe not.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdHkMTV0F38&feature=related
> 
> It is in German, but the point of the commercial is that MSchumacher won't stop talking about the car. So, Kimi says, "did we come here to drive, or talk?"
> 
> ...


That's cute. Thanks for sharing.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Lets put Schumi and Kimi in the same car, one at a time.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Hamilton says he is ready to lead the team.

What? He wants to be # 1 and the new, to be named, team mate to be # 2?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Here's One for Schumi Fans*

He's testing again, and some aren't ruling out a full-time return. By STEVE COOPER

The concept of retirement always seemed strange for a man as relentlessly driven as Michael Schumacher. While he was hardly missed during the thrilling 2007 season, it was nonetheless intriguing to see him return to the cockpit during testing in Barcelona.

Given his performances, topping the timesheets on both his days of running and receiving the call-up for next month's Jerez test, there has been plenty of speculation as to his motives for getting back in a car.

Is a full-blown comeback on the cards, or are we simply seeing a man still in love with Formula 1 unable to resist the chance to get behind the wheel of the fastest car on the grid? Autosport investigates the possible reasons.

1 He can just ask Ferrari for a go

Schumacher conceded his return to the cockpit at Barcelona earlier this month was sparked by a brief outing in an F2007 at Fiorano in October. After sampling the latest car for only a handful of laps in rainy conditions, Schumacher admitted that his appetite had been well and truly whetted.

And given his close ties to the team, he simply made a few calls to the relevant parties, informing them of his availability for the Barcelona session. Ferrari jumped at the chance to utilise his abilities.

2 Bridgestone slick tyre evaluation

As Bridgestone prepares to evaluate the return of slick tyres at next week's Jerez test, it made perfect sense to bring in a driver whose development skills had given the Japanese rubber a competitive edge for almost a decade.

While Schumacher never raced Bridgestone slicks, he has enjoyed a close relationship with the Japanese manufacturer since 1999 and has been instrumental in refining the rubber. His test role is believed to have been personally approved by Bridgestone's director of motorsport tyre development, Hirohide Hamashima.

3 Ferrari gains from his experience

Schumacher's feedback was long harnessed by Ferrari. In Barcelona, the team was able to use Michael's experience of driving without traction control as it honed its new-for-2008 common ECU. Schumacher recently confirmed that his rekindled passion had the benefit of assisting Ferrari. "The plan was just for me to further develop the car and give as much input as I could," he said. "It's just about having fun and helping the team. Together, it's a perfect fit."

4 He's bored

Michael's competitive nature means inactivity rests uneasily on his shoulders. "I've been doing my parachuting licence and exploring new things," he said recently. "I'm kind of a restless guy. But I still do training, play football often and do as much as I can. I can't just sit on the sofa and grow love handles."

The loss of the intense, competitive environment of F1, wife Corinne's burgeoning interest in equestrianism and the growth of his children has given him a greater chance to indulge his whims - hence the recent test of a Ducati GP7 MotoGP bike.

5 He's warming up for the Race of Champions

Humbled by rookie Heikki Kovalainen during his last attendance at the motorsport all-comers' end-of-season bash in 2004, Schumacher will be motivated to redress the balance. The December 16 event at Wembley Stadium will be the only chance for British fans to catch Schumacher in action this year, and his win in a Felipe Massa-organised kart race in Brazil last weekend means he will be fired up for victory.

6 It's an ego thing

Observers have suggested that Schumacher's return also satisfies his ego. They claim he has no intention of returning competitively and a testing environment gives him the perfect opportunity to garner exposure without fear of humiliation. Surely, it can be no coincidence that Schumacher's Jerez test has been scheduled alongside Felipe Massa and not next to Kimi Raikkonen, who could have given him problems. The ability to wipe the floor with guys almost half his age must also give Schumacher satisfaction.

7 He's considering team management

In the same way that Alain Prost learned about modern F1 by testing for McLaren ahead of buying Ligier, Schumacher may be evaluating the current environment in order to expand his F1 interests through team ownership. It's an idea that has recurred throughout the German's career, and a Ross Brawn-Schumacher super- team has been mooted on more than one occasion.

8 He's considering a racing return

It's a tantalising prospect: the departed champion returning to face a new generation on his own terms. "He could still win a championship with Ferrari if he wanted," said former racer John Watson. "I'm sure Ferrari could turn to Michael if it needed a sudden substitute driver - but it's a question of whether he would be prepared to do it."

Schumacher has continually stated that a full-time return is not on the cards, but how many times have you heard those protestations uttered by hardcore racers who simply can't resist the lure back into the cockpit?


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Reports out of BMW and f1.gpupdate say Kubby bear was atop the charts on day 3 followed by Hamilton and Massa. Full results weren't posted, but one of the reports made it sound like Schumi was just fooling around.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Since You Asked*

Kubica tops the times at Jerez

By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 6th 2007, 16:33 GMT

Robert Kubica made the best use of slick tyres to set the fastest time during the third day of testing at Jerez in Spain on Thursday.

The BMW Sauber driver edged out Lewis Hamilton, using the more usual grooved tyres, by less than two tenths of a second, as a whole host of drivers put some mileage on the experimental Bridgestone rubber.

Although Felipe Massa's third best time, just two thousandths of a second slower than Hamilton, was set on grooves, all the remaining top ten times were set with slicks.

Mark Webber was fourth fastest, ahead of Toyota's Timo Glock and McLaren's Pedro de la Rosa.

Michael Schumacher rejoined Ferrari and set the eighth best time on slick tyres, interestingly half a second down on teammate Massa.

Although Sebastian Vettel and Takuma Sato both brought out red flags during the day after making mistakes and running off the track, the man enduring the most drama was Ralf Schumacher.

The former Toyota driver was having his first outing with Force India and the day probably did not go how he intended.

He stopped on track in the morning with a mechanical problem at 10.12am, before crashing and just kissing the tyre wall at Turn 9 just before lunchtime. He then went off at Turn 9 later in the afternoon - ending the day bottom of the timesheets.

The other red flag was caused by Kazuki Nakajima, who stopped on track spewing oil from the car - although it was not clear if this was from the engine or gearbox.

Today's times:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:19.157 87
2. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:19.331 64
3. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:19.333 68
4. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:19.605 63
5. Glock Toyota (B) 1:19.687 40
6. de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:19.787 75
7. Piquet Renault (B) 1:19.834 90
8. M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 1:19.885 67
9. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:19.905 89
10. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:20.125 87
11. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:20.301 65
12. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:20.339 56
13. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:20.507 55
14. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:20.775 99
15. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:20.802 39
16. Filippi Super Aguri-Honda (B) 1:20.915 83
17. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:21.055 62
18. Sato Super Aguri-Honda (B) 1:21.093 79
19. Liuzzi Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:21.194 76
20. R.Schumacher Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:21.853 71

All Timing Unofficial


----------



## bjf123 (Oct 6, 2005)

I"m certainly looking forward to the start of the 2008 season. My wife and I are going to the Australian GP. We still need to buy race tickets. The problem is getting them delivered. They won't be mailed until after we've left the States for Australia, so I'm trying to work out with the hotel in Melbourne to accept and hold the tickets until we arrive.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

The regulation for engine capacity is 2.4 liters. Is that correct?

That's a measley, naturely aspirated, 146 cu inches putting out close to 750 hp. 

That's 5.13 hp/cu in. Quite amazing.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> The regulation for engine capacity is 2.4 liters. Is that correct?
> 
> That's a measley, naturely aspirated, 146 cu inches putting out close to 750 hp.
> 
> That's 5.13 hp/cu in. Quite amazing.


Yes, for going on 3 years now. Why?


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Just wanted to confirm the displacement. Thats it. Nothing else. I enjoy engine technology. That's what started me watching F1


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Don't know if you use this site, but you may want to:
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/f1regs.html


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Mosley doesn't believe Dennis in spy case

By Jonathan Noble Saturday, December 22nd 2007, 10:06 GMT

FIA president Max Mosley thinks it is likely that McLaren boss Ron Dennis did know the real extent of his team's transgressions in the spying controversy this year, despite stating he knew nothing about it.

Dennis has maintained his position that he was unaware that Ferrari information inside McLaren had manifested itself from chief designer Mike Coughlan. But Mosley is sceptical of those claims.

"One can only say it's extremely improbable that Ron didn't know," Mosley said in an interview with the Guardian. "Every time I speak to him he still assures me that he would never tell a lie, that he never has told a lie and that he hasn't lied to us.

"When you've known somebody for 40 years it's very difficult just to say, 'Well, I don't believe you.' But in the end no hard-nosed lawyer or policeman would believe it for a moment. I'm probably being a bit of a wimp about it."

Mosley reckons had Dennis approached the two FIA hearings held over the matter with the same kind of attitude that the team displayed in their recent letter of apology to the FIA, then he thinks a punishment meted out on them would have been much less severe.

"If, when Ron learnt about it, he had just called Jean Todt [of Ferrari] and said, 'Listen, you've got to know about Stepney,' we'd never even have heard about it," he explained.

"The next opportunity was when they got caught with all the documents, and he should have just come to the world council and said, 'Look, I'm really sorry, a few of my people know about it and I'm going to eradicate it.'

"There would have been a very modest fine and maybe [a deduction of] a few points at the most and it would all have been over.

"As the police say, we went where the evidence took us and we had no choice but to do that. If we'd swept it under the carpet or pretended it wasn't important I think everyone would have lost faith in our ability to regulate the sport."

Mosley has continued to deny that he dislikes Dennis, but does admit to having issues with the McLaren boss' approach to F1.

"I quite like him," he said. "But I do despise - I think that's probably the right word - his attitude to Formula One, when he says, for example, that he's passionate about Formula One. That's not true.

"He's passionate about McLaren finishing first and second in every race, which is his job, but it's not the same thing as being passionate about formula one and it's foolish to pretend that it is."


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> Don't know if you use this site, but you may want to:
> http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/f1regs.html


Yes. They have a lot of info but their news has the FIA spin. Autosport covers all racing and in more depth than one will get from the FIA.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*They can't decide, an example of the trouble to come to this team in 2008*

McLaren to hold car launch after all

By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 27th 2007, 20:38 GMT

McLaren have decided to hold a launch event for their 2008 car, having said earlier this month that they just intended to roll out their new car at its first test in January.

The MP4-23 will now be unveiled at the Mercedes-Benz Museum in Stuttgart on Monday January 7th, a day after the launch of the new Ferrari in Italy.

The launch will take place just one day before the car is run for the first time at Jerez in Spain.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Mosley doesn't believe Dennis in spy case
> 
> By Jonathan Noble Saturday, December 22nd 2007, 10:06 GMT
> 
> ...


Just exactly what does Max know about running an F1 team?


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Yes. They have a lot of info but their news has the FIA spin. Autosport covers all racing and in more depth than one will get from the FIA.


I'm not talking about spin. After all it's the FIA's site. Look to it for information, facts, technical information, rules, etc.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Just exactly what does Max know about running an F1 team?


Well, he did run a team with Bernie way back when. Not that that means anything today.

.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Well, he did run a team with Bernie way back when. Not that that means anything today.
> 
> .


Exactly.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Here are two of my 08 predictions. 

Brawn and Honda will not work out as well as everyone involved with them hopes. 

McLaren will have a variety of problems this season. Maybe even slipping to 3rd or 4th.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Ok, 2008 prediction time - seems fair now that it is 2008. 

*- BMW will win its first race

- Kovalainen will win his first race

- Renault will be strong from mid-way of the season

- the lack of TC will cause some major problems (serious accident) in a wet race

- the FIA will announce that the engine formula will change to 1.5 liter, 4 cylinder turbo engines for the 2012 season

- Martin Brundle and Sir Jackie Stewart will challenge Bernie Ecclestone and The Turd to a smackdown UF, resulting in Damon Hill becoming the chairman of the FIA*

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Ok, 2008 prediction time - seems fair now that it is 2008.
> 
> *- BMW will win its first race
> 
> ...


Are these yours or part what you have read?


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Are these yours or part what you have read?


I just pulled them out of my... HAT!

I hope that at least the last one comes true.

.


----------



## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

Patrick said:


> *
> - Martin Brundle and Sir Jackie Stewart will challenge Bernie Ecclestone and The Turd to a smackdown UF, resulting in Damon Hill becoming the chairman of the FIA*
> .


They should make it pay-per-view. I know I'd pay to see that.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> I just pulled them out of my... HAT!
> 
> I hope that at least the last one comes true.
> 
> .


+1


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Todt is complaining that McLaren will benefit from the new, common ECU because their company (McLaren electronic), along with Microsoft, builds the units.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

It would make a great scandal if McLaren built in a few secret tricks to the new ECU and then got caught halfway thru the season.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Todt is complaining that McLaren will benefit from the new, common ECU because their company (McLaren electronic), along with *Microsoft*, builds the units.




Imagine racing up to Eau Rouge, flat out, and all of a sudden...










.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Has anyone heard anything about the McLaren car? Is it testing anywhere? Is it so good they are not testing? Is it so bad it is being re-built?


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

And still more bad McLaren news. 

Mika and Erja Häkkinen are getting divorced. 




















:fruit:


Party at Mika's place - he is buying!


.


----------



## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

Patrick said:


> And still more bad McLaren news.
> 
> Mika and Erja Häkkinen are getting divorced.
> 
> ...


Wow! He's going to come stumbling back to the track every Sunday morning after partying every Saturday night... :yikes:

I bet we'll see him skewering... ummm, squiring a new hottie every race weekend! :bigpimp:


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

At testing today Lewis beat de la Rosa by 1/10th. That's not saying much for Lewis.

Still things are new and not too much can be made of it, but it is all we have to talk about. :dunno:

So far there is not much published about how good or bad the McLaren is. There are no bubbling comments from the drivers either.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> At testing today Lewis beat de la Rosa by 1/10th. That's not saying much for Lewis.
> 
> Still things are new and not too much can be made of it, but it is all we have to talk about. :dunno:
> 
> So far there is not much published about how good or bad the McLaren is. There are no bubbling comments from the drivers either.


Just out of curiosity, why do you have such animosity for Mr. Hamilton?:dunno:


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I was a McLaren fan for years until year after year the answer was the same, we will do better next year. Next year, next year. And Kimi would drive his heart out and the car would break. Next year.

You may recall I despised Ferrari too for all the favorable calls they got year in and out. And also due to the cheater.

I became a Kimi fan at McLaren and followed him to Ferrari, but only after the cheater retired.

I don't have animosity for Lewis per se, its his team. You ask that as if fans are not suppose to have strong feelings. I didn't until recent years.

What is your story?


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> I was a McLaren fan for years until year after year the answer was the same, we will do better next year. Next year, next year. And Kimi would drive his heart out and the car would break. Next year.
> 
> You may recall I despised Ferrari too for all the favorable calls they got year in and out. And also due to the cheater.
> 
> ...


You could have fooled me. I don't recall your ever saying anything positive about Lewis even though there was a lot that could have been said last year. I don't particularly care whether he wins or loses, but I think he showed us a lot of talent last year, especially for a rookie.

As for me, I've followed a bunch of drivers and teams over the years...but only those who I had respect for as drivers, team players and/or personalities. As I've said on numerous occasions, I always disliked Schumi even though he had at least as much talent behind the wheel as anyone ever had. I much prefer those who play by the rules. Neither he nor his last team did that...and the team goes on.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> You could have fooled me. I don't recall your ever saying anything positive about Lewis even though there was a lot that could have been said last year. QUOTE]
> 
> I didn't know I was expected to say something positive about Lewis.
> 
> ...


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Raikkonen: Ferrari still need to improve 

By Michele Lostia and Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, February 12th 2008, 10:22 GMT 


World champion Kimi Raikkonen reckons Ferrari still need to improve a lot before the start of the season, despite the impressive times set during winter testing.

The Italian squad's F2008 has been one of the pace-setters in testing since it was unveiled last month, and Raikkonen showed a blistering pace in Bahrain last week, lapping over two seconds quicker than last year's pole position time.

The Finn believes, however, that there is still room for improvement, although he admits he has been pleased with the performance of the new car so far.

"Testing has been going well. This session has also shown problems - small ones - with the F2008. We wanted to get to know the car better, and so we did," Raikkonen was quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport. 

"It's a good start for the Ferrari. There have already been improvements. Obviously reliability hasn't come automatically, but two or three laptimes have already been interesting."

He added: "With the new parts the performance will further improve. We've improved in many areas here, now we look forward to the new aerodynamics we'll try out in the Montmelo test. There we will go against our rivals and we'll know where we stand.

"Obviously we still need to improve a lot, but for me it's easier now compared to 2007. And the car has had a good beginning too.

"The decisive step is the next test. And then Melbourne, because only at the first GP we'll know how the teams compare."

The team's technical director Aldo Costa was also happy with the Bahrain test, although he was sorry about the problems that hit their cars on Sunday.

He said: "Everything went well and according to plans. This track has confirmed to be ideal for testing because it allows you to work with a continuity that is unmatched elsewhere, in consistent conditions. The only regret is for Sunday's problems."


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

This thread has gotten very slow. Is it just the off season or is it a sign of dwindling interest in this thread or the sport.


----------



## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Here's food for thought - Kubica was only 0.4s off Hamilton's pace at Jerez, does it mean BMW Sauber found half a second compared with last season or McLaren lost some speed with the new car? 

Times from Jerez:
Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:19.102 89
2. de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:19.287 88
3. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:19.539 91
4. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:19.601 93
5. Piquet Renault (B) 1:19.660 120
6. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:19.958 94
7. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:20.013 113
8. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:20.029 125
9. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:20.105 53
10. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:20.176 111
11. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:20.418 82
12. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:21.133 71
13. di Grassi Renault (B) 1:21.200 92
14. Sato Super Aguri-Honda (B) 1:21.400 90
15. Liuzzi Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:21.553 103
16. Wurz Honda (B) 1:21.950 86


----------



## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

franka said:


> For the record he is a good, maybe a great, driver. But he had one of the best cars ever and didn't have to stand in line behind a senior team mate either. He's been with McLaren for what, 10 years? Throw him in a new team with a less than front row car and then we'll see what he is made of.
> 
> Lets see how good he is when he isn't in a great car and isn't starting in the top 3 rows.


I'd love to see him next to Kubica in any team other than McLaren. My bet is he'd lose a lot of his "Wunder Kid" sparkle.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

F1Crazy said:


> I'd love to see him next to Kubica in any team other than McLaren. My bet is he'd lose a lot of his "Wunder Kid" sparkle.


Amen


----------



## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

franka said:


> This thread has gotten very slow. Is it just the off season or is it a sign of dwindling interest in this thread or the sport.


I vote "off-season"... :dunno: I still enjoy the races and the show, although all the changes concern me... :eeps:

Still beats roundy-round racing (although I understand DirecTV is offering a free weekend of the "in-car pass" or whatever they are calling it, where you can select your vantage point... that could be fun!)


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Ok, here is some news for you fans. 

The FIA conducted dropping tests at the testing today in Jerez.


.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

F1Crazy said:


> Here's food for thought - Kubica was only 0.4s off Hamilton's pace at Jerez, does it mean BMW Sauber found half a second compared with last season or McLaren lost some speed with the new car?
> 
> Times from Jerez:
> Pos Driver Team Time Laps
> ...


Berford. No comment? Seems this one is right up your alley. 

This is a friendly comment, no hidden dig or anything.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Ok, here is some news for you fans.
> 
> The FIA conducted dropping tests at the testing today in Jerez. .


Ok what is dropping tests?


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Ok what is dropping tests?


:rofl:

D'uh! DOPE.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

FIA is mounting world wide anti racism program or drive as a reaction to the incident in Spain.

Nice sentiment but way overboard in reaction. Way excessive. They have other problems to focus on.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> :rofl:
> 
> D'uh! DOPE. .


Dropping or Doping? D'uh, Huh? WTF ?


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Hamilton says that he has a few tricks up his sleeve for this season.

He will need them. :rofl:


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*I Totally Agree*

Toyota engine chief says KERS 'primitive'

By Michele Lostia and Jonathan Noble Wednesday, February 20th 2008, 12:25 GMT

Toyota engine chief Luca Marmorini believes that the FIA's plans to introduce environmentally-friendly technology in Formula One do not go far enough.

Although several teams have said they are excited about the arrival of Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS) next year, Marmorini thinks that the move will not actually be as technically challenging as some have predicted.

He thinks the KERS devices in F1 will not be as advanced as those seen in other racing categories, and that means they will be of limited use for helping the road car industry.

"The adoption of energy recovery leaves me rather perplexed because the system chosen by the FIA is really primitive," Marmorini said in an interview with Italian magazine Autosprint.

"(They are) extremely simplified compared to the system we have on the Toyota Prius road car, or even on the Toyota Supra HV-R that won the 24 Hours of Tokachi.

"The potential of hybrid engines is immense, but the solution chosen by the FIA restricts itself to recover energy from the rear wheels. The parameters involved should be more.

"Let's say that, if the Supra that races at Tokachi recovers 70% of the dissipated energy, the system chosen for F1 restricts itself to 20%.

"This system will end up being the same for everyone too, and in this case we'll refer to it as an accessory, devaluing a great technical issue along the way."

Marmorini's calls for more radical systems in F1 have been backed by famed car designer Mauro Forghieri, who has made no secret of the fact that he is unhappy with the engine regulations in Grand Prix racing.

"The environmental way of energy recovery and percentages of bio fuels is an interesting thing, but this aspect could be done more radically by defining a maximum amount of energy available, giving the engine designers full freedom to find the most suitable and imaginative technical solutions," he told Autosprint.

"It's sad to realize that today, in order to see an ample variety of engines in a race, you need to look at endurance racing, at the 24 Hours of Le Mans, while F1 has become like F3 engine-wise, only faster and infinitely more expensive."

Forghieri said he was no longer excited by F1 due to the introduction of an engine freeze.

"I don't even watch the Grands Prix anymore. Not only because of the lack of spectacle, but most of all for the lack of technical aspects," he explained.

"The engine aspect has simply disappeared, and for a technician like me, who has always tried to do new and original things, also making mistakes along the way at times, to see all the engines the same in architecture and performance it's really too much to swallow.

"In the name of safety and cost reduction someone has decided that engine research and development should be halted and frozen. Are we sure this was the right way to do it?"

He added: "If we had the current rules in the past, forcing equal engines, just think of how many technical solutions would never have been discovered.

"There wouldn't have been the turbo, the comprex (supercharger), pneumatic valves, direct injection and the common rail (diesel fuel injection system).

"Nowadays engines are an accessory, which the team can buy and install in the car and forget about all the rest. Engines are like the tyres or the spark plugs, just an accessory that must guarantee a certain efficiency and reliability as defined in the rules."


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*Show him the money!*

If Fernando Alonso stays with Renault for the 2009 season, thus not exercising his option to move to another team after 2008, his salary for this coming season is a (please sit down) whopping $46,000,000 USD. 

That figure is one million US Dollars more than Räikkönen's salary for 2008, and more than double what Alonso was paid last year with McLaren.

Wow. :yikes:

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

It takes money to win


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> It takes money to win


Hamilton got $750,000 USD plus bonuses last season. :dunno:

And if it takes money to win, what is the problem with Toyota and Honda?

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Hamilton got $750,000 USD plus bonuses last season.
> 
> And if it takes money to win, what is the problem with Toyota and Honda?.


Simple.

It takes money to win but money doesn't guarantee a win.

If I were Alonso I would sit tight with Renualt till I retired.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Räikkönen and MSchumacher will test Ferrari on Monday.

That should be interesting!


.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Räikkönen and MSchumacher will test Ferrari on Monday.
> 
> That should be interesting! .


I wonder if they will be able to compare times or if they will be on different programs, on purpose or not.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> Just out of curiosity, why do you have such animosity for Mr. Hamilton?:dunno:


It just occured to me while reading an AutoSport article that you may have been asking if I'm prejudice, racist.

If it took me this long to recognize that then you can bet that I have no color prejudice for Lewis, one way or the other.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I have a strong suspicion that Super Aguri is history.

No drivers announced (even though the FIA remarkably did it for them), no car, no testing program, and now they have pulled out of the last test in Barcelona, before the Australian Grand Prix.

What a waste of time.

Perhaps Sato will get a seat where he belongs - with the go in a circle cars series.


.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> I have a strong suspicion that Super Aguri is history.
> 
> No drivers announced (even though the FIA remarkably did it for them), no car, no testing program, and now they have pulled out of the last test in Barcelona, before the Australian Grand Prix.
> 
> ...


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

The sponsor SS United has screwed them on payments they owe the team.

Honda has put together a package to save them but they have refused to take it.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Here is an interesting fact I came across the other day.

The most powerful engine to ever run in F1 was an inline 4 cylinder, production iron block, turbocharged, 1.5 liter ( = 91 inch^3 ) BMW.

Back in 1986 the little 4 banger made 1,300 hp at 11,000 rpm with a plenum pressure of 80 psi.

That turns out to be 867 hp/liter or 14.3 hp/in^3.

Quite amazing even today. Those were some of the good times past. F1 will never be as exciting and amazing as it was then.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

If my 540 had that specific hp output it would be cranking out 3,813 hp.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Lewis 1, Kimi 2, Schu 3*

Hamilton sets the pace at Barcelona

By Jonathan Noble Monday, February 25th 2008, 16:53 GMT

Lewis Hamilton maintained the slight speed edge that McLaren have shown against rivals Ferrari in Barcelona, when he topped the times on the first day of this week's final full pre-season test.

The morning had started in damp conditions but a dry line appeared in the early afternoon to allow teams some chance to get on with evaluating their final developments ahead of the Australian Grand Prix.

Hamilton's best lap was just a few hundredths of a second faster than Kimi Raikkonen, with Michael Schumacher returning to action in the 2008 car to set the third best time.

Kazuki Nakajima maintained the continued impressive pace of the Williams to end up fourth quickest, ahead of McLaren's Heikki Kovalainen and Williams teammate Nico Rosberg.

Nick Heidfeld recovered from a mechanical problem in the morning, that left him stranded between Turns 4 and 5, to set the eighth best time.

The other red flags were brought out by Sebastian Vettel, who went off at Turn 3 at 10.05am, and Nelson Piquet, who touched the pit wall entry just before 1pm.

Adrian Sutil delivered some encouraging news for Force India as he set the 11th best time as they ran their 2008 car for the first time.

The Toyota team had a low-key day, with Timo Glock down in 15th, right in front of test drivrer Kamui Kobayashi.

"Again, these were not the ideal conditions for testing because of the damp start to the action," said Glock. "We did some running in the morning but not much because the track was changing so much. It became more stable during the second half of the afternoon and that went better for me.

"We worked on finding a set-up direction to suit my driving style better. We found an improved car balance and I was much happier with it today. We couldn't try everything because we were a bit short of time in the afternoon but it was a good day."

More to follow.

Today's times:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:22.276 78
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:22.319 82
3. M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 1:22.428 83
4. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:22.724 54
5. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:22.852 71
6. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:22.974 108
7. Alonso Renault (B) 1:23.021 79
8. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:23.075 75
9. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:23.091 62
10. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:23.115 71
11. Sutil Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:23.188 95
12. Klien BMW-Sauber (B) 1:23.239 43
13. Liuzzi Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:23.270 70
14. Piquet Renault (B) 1:23.442 42
15. Glock Toyota (B) 1:23.609 86
16. Kobayashi Toyota (B) 1:23.880 29
17. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:24.460 115
18. Wurz Honda (B) 1:24.667 109
19. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:24.826 25


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Kimi (@P3) was a half second behind young Lewis on day 2 in Barcelona. So it appears McLaren can build their own car and make it run well. The Bimmers aren't faring well.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> Kimi (@P3) was a half second behind young Lewis on day 2 in Barcelona. So it appears McLaren can build their own car and make it run well. The Bimmers aren't faring well.


Yes but is the McLaren legal? We've seen them run illegal fairings. :rofl:


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Yes but is the McLaren legal? We've seen them run illegal fairings. :rofl:


What are you talking about?


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/92121.jpg


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Schumi says the car is better in everyway than last year's car and that Ferrari are ready to whip some *****


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Scott_H said:


> Kimi is excited about the new season...


That's my man. No BS or wasted time


----------



## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

It's on tonight! :banana:


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Gentlemen, start your engines.......

and disengage your traction control...and watch the pit lane lights closely...and pray that you understand the safety car rules...and don't block you teammate in anyway...and watch out for the mad Pole...and beware of Cassius, he has a mean and hungry look. Any questions?


----------



## bjf123 (Oct 6, 2005)

Here are some photos I took at Friday's practice sessions in Melbourne.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> See Patrick's ruling on this subject in post # 349


Told you! 










.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

McLaren terminate Coughlan's contract 

By Jonathan Noble Friday, March 14th 2008, 02:11 GMT 


Mike Coughlan, the designer at the centre of last year's Formula One spy scandal, has finally had his contract with McLaren terminated, autosport.com can reveal.

Coughlan had been suspended from his role as chief designer at the Woking-based team ever since Ferrari documents were found at his house last July.

Although McLaren were eventually thrown out of the constructors' championship and fined $100 million (USD) in the wake of that Ferrari information passing into the team, Coughlan was kept suspended throughout the affair.

It is understood that Coughlan could not be sacked by McLaren because of legal issues.

However, senior McLaren sources have confirmed to autosport.com that Coughlan is now no longer part of the outfit and his contract with McLaren has been terminated.

Coughlan recently met with the FIA to explain his role in the affair and, after apologising to the governing body and Ferrari, it is understood he has been banned from international motor racing until July 2009.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Told you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But this is legal? Where's the difference?


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Compare both of those pictures to what McLaren was using in winter testing. It was illegal, but as I said, it was part of the testing process for them to see what would work.


.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Compare both of those pictures to what McLaren was using in winter testing. It was illegal, but as I said, it was part of the testing process for them to see what would work.
> 
> .


To see what would work in a legal sense or an aerodynamic sense? I don't pretend to fully appreciate the regulatory nuances, but since Ferrari introdused the fairings, they have seemed to fly in the face of the intent of the regs, and I've been unable to find official FIA comment other than some reference by Whiting that questions have been asked (but not answered.) My rough understanding is that you could put anything on that doesn't effectively expand the width of the car. But if Ferrari's configuration is acceptable, the front fairings would have to be considered within the width defined by the rear wheels, whose fairings are flush with the wheels. It seemed to me that early set ups by McLaren and BMW were shooting for that effect as well, so they didn't seem illegal within the Ferrari frame of reference. What's wrong with that analysis?


----------



## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

NO TC - I love it!!!


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I believe the question is is it an aero device or not? If aero its not allowed but as part of the brake system it is allowed. That or the reverse of that.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> I believe the question is is it an aero device or not? If aero its not allowed but as part of the brake system it is allowed. That or the reverse of that.


It is a brake cooling device - on both cars.

Others will develop their own as well, but lets how that changes with The Turd's plans for 2009. He announced yesterday, that the changes coming to Formula 1 for 2009 will "shake up" the series.

With that guy running the show, I have no doubts.

.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

F1Crazy said:


> NO TC - I love it!!!


Yeah, the afternoon free practice session was wild! Especially in the 3rd sector of the track.

The lack of TC is a much bigger deal than what we were hearing from everyone during winter testing.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Yeah, the afternoon free practice session was wild! Especially in the 3rd sector of the track.
> 
> The lack of TC is a much bigger deal than what we were hearing from everyone during winter testing.
> .


I taped it and watched this morning. The cars are moving around a lot both in braking and it powering out of turns. Lots of rears coming around under braking.

First turn may be a disaster.


----------



## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

bjf123 said:


> Here are some photos I took at Friday's practice sessions in Melbourne.


Wow! You consistently get the cars in almost the exact same position each time! :thumbup:


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Tripod and remote controller.


----------



## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

We'll get a much better idea of how good the cars are tonight at qualifying 
I wonder if BMW Sauber was holding out or were they really just concentrating on the other issues?


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

jcatral14 said:


> We'll get a much better idea of how good the cars are tonight at qualifying
> I wonder if BMW Sauber was holding out or were they really just concentrating on the other issues?


In practice you can't really say. I doubt that anyone was running their max rpms, they will save that for qualifying and the race as needed.

Engine longevity is highly influenced by the length of time it is running at max rpms. The teams purposefully restrict max rpms to qualifying and only so long in a race. They have it all plotted out and keep a very tight rein on rpms.

So I doubt that any of them were running full out in practice which means we need to see tonight who has it and who doesn't.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*KIMI not Happy*

Raikkonen unhappy after opening day

By Pablo Elizalde Friday, March 14th 2008, 06:30 GMT

World champion Kimi Raikkonen said he was not happy with his Ferrari team's performance in practice for the Australian Grand Prix.

Raikkonen, last year's winner from pole position in Melbourne, topped the times in the morning session but could only be sixth in the afternoon.

The Finn finished over 1.5 seconds off Lewis Hamilton's pace and admitted he was struggling with his car's handling.

"I am not very happy with the way practice went," said Raikkonen. "This morning we found some good settings for the car, but in the afternoon, we struggled and our laptimes reflect that.

"We must look carefully at the data to work out how to improve the car. We have seen that if we manage to find the right set-up, we have the potential to be competitive."

Teammate Felipe Massa was happier after posting the third quickest time, despite being unable to try the softer tyres after going off track.

"All in all, I am happy with this start to the season," he said. "We were able to work towards the race and I think I will be able to run at a good pace on a long run.

"Because of going off the track, I was unable to try the last set of soft tyres available to me, but that's certainly not a big problem. The harder tyres are very consistent, while the other compound gives more grip on the first lap, but then suffers from greater degradation."


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

jcatral14 said:


> We'll get a much better idea of how good the cars are tonight at qualifying
> I wonder if BMW Sauber was holding out or were they really just concentrating on the other issues?


I doubt BMW was holding back any more than others are. They had some electrical problems, but I have sense that this isn't going to be a "points every race" year for them. I also have a sense that they tried to add too many bells and whistles to the design and ultimately they may find that KISS is the better result.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Bruce said:


> Agreed. It is the guy on the radio to him that should have told him to wait at pit exit. I'll bet Honda is going to have serious mettings on the basics of F1 this week. I guess they were excited as to wher Rubens was running and forgot the basics.


As it turns out, Honda's lollipop guy was a green rookie - this was his first Formula 1 race. 

Also, the "grassy knoll" that launched Glock airborne will be removed for next year's Grand Prix. Clever idea...

.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Someone (his race engineer perhaps) in the box should have known that the pit lane was closed, and told Barrichello to WAIT for the green light to exit the pits. There have been SC on track situations where cars have lined up to exit the pit area, and Barrichello could have waited.
> 
> He is Brazilian, so running a red light is probably normal for him.  :rofl:
> 
> ...


+1 All quite true.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> ...
> 
> After Nakajima incident Sauber's left rear suspension was damaged and it was the end of the race for Kubi.


Very sad that Nak-out (use your imagination) disabled Robert and ended up proud that he scored points. Also sad that, as a result, Williams is ahead of BMW by a point. That won't last.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

10 grid spots? Wow what a penalty... So he will start at the back instead of the middle or worse? He ruined a very good weekend for Kubica.

It was a GREAT race. I think that with the Qualifying + Race it was better than 98% of all the action we saw last year. It was GREAT!

Here is my question though and I can never figure it out. Why does BMW always lose spots in their pit strategy and pitting in general. Kubica pits from 2 and everyone takes their stops he is in 3. Then again he dropped another 3 or 4 spots in the next pit. That part is a repeat from last year. I remember one race where everyone went with a 2 stop and BMW are the ONLY ones in the field doing a 3 stop... They always seem to be fast while in the pits but always lose spots 



berford said:


> Very sad that Nak-out (use your imagination) disabled Robert and ended up proud that he scored points. Also sad that, as a result, Williams is ahead of BMW by a point. That won't last.


They are tied IIRC. BMW takes 8 for 2nd and Williams takes 6 and 2 for their finishes. They should NOT get that points for their 2nd car.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> ...
> 
> They are tied IIRC. BMW takes 8 for 2nd and Williams takes 6 and 2 for their finishes. They should NOT get that points for their 2nd car.


That was before Rubens was DQ'd. 6 + 3 = 9 for Williams vs. 8 for BMV.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Here is my question though and I can never figure it out. Why does BMW always lose spots in their pit strategy and pitting in general. Kubica pits from 2 and everyone takes their stops he is in 3. Then again he dropped another 3 or 4 spots in the next pit. That part is a repeat from last year. I remember one race where everyone went with a 2 stop and BMW are the ONLY ones in the field doing a 3 stop... They always seem to be fast while in the pits but always lose spots QUOTE]
> 
> Most everyone will drop places when pitting unless they have a 20+ second lead over the next car behind them.
> 
> The rest is pit stategy isn't it? All strategies have risk and unless you know what the strategy was/is its mostly impossible to judge. Although there are some strategies that are obvious. Obviously good and obviously bad, especially so come Monday.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> Most everyone will drop places when pitting unless they have a 20+ second lead over the next car behind them.


He means after the pit cycle is over....I tend to agree with his observation.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Heikki hit the pit lane speed button by mistake which allowed Alonso to pass without enough time to re-take Alonso.

McLaren is talking it down.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

berford said:


> That was before Rubens was DQ'd. 6 + 3 = 9 for Williams vs. 8 for BMV.


Oh... I didn't read any news on Sunday or today so I didn't realize that... Love how Rubens gets the DQ and Williams gets a slap on the wrist...



Bruce said:


> He means after the pit cycle is over....I tend to agree with his observation.


Exactly. I know they will come out with lost spots but after the cycle is over... They are down almost 100% of the time... What gives? There pit times are fast and they are fast on track but lose spots in pit...


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Exactly. I know they will come out with lost spots but after the cycle is over... They are down almost 100% of the time... What gives? There pit times are fast and they are fast on track but lose spots in pit...


Obviously it has to do with Max and Bernie fixing the race against these teams for refusing to make certain under the table payments to said gentlemen


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Obviously it has to do with Max and Bernie fixing the race against these teams for refusing to make certain under the table payments to said gentlemen




.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Oh... I didn't read any news on Sunday or today so I didn't realize that... Love how Rubens gets the DQ and Williams gets a slap on the wrist...
> 
> Exactly. I know they will come out with lost spots but after the cycle is over... They are down almost 100% of the time... What gives? There pit times are fast and they are fast on track but lose spots in pit...


The BMW pit speed limiter is set on km, not mph, so they come in and go out at 37 mph, not 60 mph. It has something to do with their culture and sense of fairness. j/k:bigpimp:

Actually, I do think you're on to something. I'd like to see some statistics about it, which wouldn't necessarily prove anything. But it does seem like Robert, especially, loses places after a cycle more than others do. But it may be my imagination, too.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Which of these 3 cups has a pea under it ?


----------



## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> Nakajima is a moron and has no place in F1 :tsk:


I was furious. Typical Japanese driving mistake. Ide, that other bloke last year from Aguri, Sato (early career), etc. would make so simple errors it boggled my mind.

When I saw Kubica come in, I was like, HE JUST PITTED!!!! He has a chance at a podium!!!!!!!! WHAT?!?!?!?!

Then I saw Nakajima's techs prepping a new front nose and I said....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> NO TC - I love it!!!


+1


----------



## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

Patrick said:


> Kubica's car was damaged beyond being repairable after Nakajima crashed into him with the Follow-Me Car still on the track.
> 
> *Nakajima's qualifying position has been dropped 10 places for Malaysia as a result. * IMHO, he has no clue what he is doing; he isn't good enough to drive GP2.
> 
> ...


Good. I hadn't heard this yet.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

They definitely lose spots with close to 100% regularity. Odd that no one ever says anything on Speed or in interviews or anything.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Todt steps down as Ferrari CEO 

By Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, March 18th 2008, 16:35 GMT 


Ferrari's shareholders on Tuesday confirmed the board of directors for a three-year period, with Luca di Montezemolo staying on as president and Jean Todt stepping down from his role as CEO.

The Frenchman will be replaced by Amadeo Felisa.

Todt, who left his position as team principal of the Formula One team this year, had been appointed CEO in October 2006.

The Frenchman will remain as part of the Ferrari board, after been given special appointments in GT activities and Sports Management. He will also continue to represent Ferrari at the FIA World Council.

"My commitment to the President had been to manage the company until the end of his mandate as President of Confindustria and to indicate the new director of the Sports Management," said Todt. 

"Having accomplished these tasks, a new phase of my life has now begun in which I will have more time to dedicate to myself and my other interests. 

"Naturally I will continue to make a contribution to Ferrari in my institutional positions and in those which the President has chosen to entrust me."

Ferrari said in a statement that it "thanks Jean Todt for the extraordinary human and professional contribution he has made over the last fifteen years of sporting success and great growth for the company of the Prancing Horse."

The Board is now therefore composed as follows: Luca di Montezemolo, Piero Ferrari, Jean Todt, Amedeo Felisa, Alfredo Altavilla, Diego della Valle, Christopher Gent, Enrico Lippi, Sergio Marchionne, Paolo Monferino, Lindsay Owen-Jones, Marco Piccinini and Sergio Pininfarina.

The shareholders' meeting also approved the balance sheet of the company in 2007, when 1,668 million euro were invoiced and 6,465 cars were delivered.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Ferrari engine failures: valvetrain problems.


.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Ferrari engine failures: valvetrain problems. .


I'm curious where you heard this. My Autosport news dosen't mention it

Seems strange that they would have valvetrain problems when its the same design and make of components that they have been running due to the freeze.

It is possible that they had defective parts that passed testing/inspection/certifications w/o being detected.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Well, I guess that this was expected - if you saw Heidfeld's last flying lap in Q3.
> 
> Kovalainen and Hamilton each received a five position drop on the grid for tomorrow's race start because they - in the jury's opinion - blocked Heidfeld in Turn 4, and ruined his lap.
> 
> ...


Here's the video, look at the onboard :yikes:


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I didn't see qualfy. Did the two McLarens really block on purpose or was it more like just a mistake and not intentional?


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

franka said:


> I didn't see qualfy. Did the two McLarens really block on purpose or was it more like just a mistake and not intentional?


I don't think it was intentional, rather costly mistake. Out of several cars running slow after their hot laps they were the only two that stayed on the racing line :dunno:
Q3 is shorter now so blocking is going to happen again.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

I was thinking rather than docking Hamilton and Kovalainen 5 positions I would just have given both Heidfeld and Alonso 0.2 seconds. Would that be fair? Heidfeld's comment was that it cost him about that much time. 0.2 secs quicker would have put him at P3 instead of being at P5 now.
I probably will fall asleep so I'll catch the race tomorrow afternoon. That means no visiting this section until after I watch the race.


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

Come on...this is McLaren. Of course it was intentional. They cheat to win, it's company policy.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

TC : Massa - 2 : 0 
:rofl:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

F1Crazy said:


> TC : Massa - 2 : 0
> :rofl:


:rofl:

MSchumacher had better be in shape for Bahrain. :rofl:

.


----------



## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

woody underwood said:


> Patrick and I finally agree. Alonson takes himself and Hamilton out at the start. The Toyoda runs out of fuel. The two Frerraris blow up again and the Bimmers get a one two!!! Ahh the stars finally aligned correctly.


Close but no cigar for me...


----------



## Test_Engineer (Sep 11, 2004)

F1Crazy said:


> TC : Massa - 2 : 0
> :rofl:


fail


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

I wanna see Massa w/o TC in pouring rain.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Were there problems that McLaren can point to as to why they performed so poorly?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Theissen: BMW can win this year 

By Jonathan Noble Monday, March 24th 2008, 13:38 GMT 


BMW motorsport director Mario Theissen is confident that his team are on course to secure their maiden Formula One victory this year after another second place in the Malaysian Grand Prix.

Robert Kubica followed up Nick Heidfeld's runner-up position from Melbourne to cross the finish line behind Kimi Raikkonen in Sepang, as BMW Sauber continue to threaten favourites McLaren and Ferrari.

And Theissen sees no reason why the Hinwil-based outfit will be unable to achieve their ambitions for the season.

"Well, we have set two targets for this year," he said. "One was to turn the battle of two in front of us into a battle of three. And I think it looks like we are, at least in the two races so far, able to do that.

"The other target is to win our first race during the season. I am confident we can do that."

Theissen has said he is more encouraged by their actual speed in Malaysia than the result that keeps them second in the constructors' championship.

"I am pleased not just with the result, but also with the performance. Robert was able to settle behind the Ferraris right away after the start, and it was really good to see him doing so well.

"Nick was unlucky at the first corner, as he touched with Trulli. Both cars went wide, so several cars could slip by inside. 

"They lost a lot of positions but he was able to move back up to sixth, doing the fastest lap at the end of the race and pulling off an overtaking manoeuvre (past Coulthard and Alonso) that was I think the best one of the race."


----------



## Test_Engineer (Sep 11, 2004)

armaq said:


> I wanna see Massa w/o TC in pouring rain.


At this point, I doubt if he would complete the parade lap. :dunno:


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I'm surprised that Massa's head hasn't exploded by now from being beat by Kimi. 

I'm not qualified to coach him but it seems he's trying too hard. At the end of last season he said something along the lines of working harder and intending to win the championship. He will need a new plan. 

And if Kimi keeps beating him Kimi will need to watch out for some dirty tricks on track.


----------



## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

franka said:


> And if Kimi keeps beating him Kimi will need to watch out for some dirty tricks on track.


Not a dirty trick per se, but he already hit him with the "Schumacher-esque" cross-track chop at the start of the race... I could see that for a competitor, but not against your teammate...

There was some shot of them post-qualifying IIRC, where they rather brusquely shook hands... the look on Massa's face said it all... I'm sure the talk of Vettel being of interest to Ferrari has only further unsettled him... who better to be MS's trainee than a quick 20 YO German... :eeps:


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*It gets worse...*

Ralf Schumacher (you might remember that he once drove in F1, and is the younger brother of 7 times F1 World Champion, MSchumacher) said today that, "Felipe Massa was the #2 driver with Ferrari when my brother drove for the team, and he is clearly the #2 driver now that Räikkönen is the current world champion."

:rofl:

Damn, talking about rubbing salt directly into the wound!  :rofl:

.


----------



## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

Nice, 2 races, 2 podiums for BMW Sauber :bigpimp:
That first corner did Nick in but was able to hang in there. Nice pass on Alonso and Coulthard :thumbup:


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## E36FewInNumber (May 19, 2007)

I just managed to watch the race, b/c i was on vacation. I have to say BMW is doing really well. this should be a fairly promising year if they can keep it up. it is definitely nice to see different faces on the podium.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Two races down and we have yet to see Ferrari and McLaren in a head to head battle.

We heard why Ferrari was so slow and DNF in Melborne but we have not heard any reasons why (excuses) the McLaren were off pace in Malaysia. 

Unless that was the best they could do, but surely not.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

woody underwood said:


> Come on...this is McLaren. Of course it was intentional. They cheat to win, it's company policy.


You got the wrong company.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Mosley apologises and vows to stay 

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, April 1st 2008, 17:16 GMT 


Max Mosley has apologised to members of the FIA for any embarrassment caused by the recent revelations about his private life, but made it clear he remains fully committed to his role as president of motor racing's governing body.

In a letter sent on Tuesday to all presidents of the national FIA clubs, all members of the FIA Senate, the World Motor Sport Council and the World Council for Mobility and the Automobile, Mosley blames the allegations about his sexual conduct on a 'covert' operation to discredit him.

The FIA head also denied claims from the newspaper that there were Nazi connotations in his actions.

He also reveals that he intends to take legal action against the News of the World newspaper for the article.

In the letter, Mosley writes: "From information provided to me by an impeccable high-level source close to the UK police and security services, I understand that over the last two weeks or so, a covert investigation of my private life and background has been undertaken by a group specialising in such things, for reasons and clients as yet unknown. I have had similar but less well-sourced information from France.

"Regrettably you are now familiar with the results of this covert investigation and I am very sorry if this has embarrassed you or the club. Not content with publicising highly personal and private activities, which are, to say the least, embarrassing, a British tabloid newspaper published the story with the claim that there was some sort of Nazi connotation to the matter. This is entirely false.

"It is against the law in most countries to publish details of a person's private life without good reason. The publications by The News of the World are a wholly unwarranted invasion of my privacy and I intend to issue legal proceedings against the Newspaper in the UK and other jurisdictions."

Although there have been calls by some for Mosley to resign in the wake of the scandal, in the letter he claims that he has received support from a number of parties who wish him to stand firm in light of the controversy.

"I have received a very large number of messages of sympathy and support from those within the FIA and the motor sport and motoring communities generally, suggesting that my private life is not relevant to my work and that I should continue in my role," wrote Mosley. "I am grateful and with your support I intend to follow this advice.

"I shall now devote some time to those responsible for putting this into the public domain but above all I need to repair the damage to my immediate family who are the innocent and unsuspecting victims of this deliberate and calculated personal attack.

"You can, however be certain that I will not allow any of this to impede my commitment to the work of the FIA."

The letter is the first public statement from Mosley since the story broke in Sunday's News of the World newspaper. 

Although Mosley is scheduled to attend this weekend's Bahrain Grand Prix, it is looking increasingly likely that he will choose to skip the event.

Although the news of Mosley's antics has generated a lot of coverage and reaction in the media, so far Formula One teams and manufacturers have remained silent over the matter.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

This is not motor sport. This is The Turd at night...his finest hour. I understand he dances and strips :yikes: better than he manages FIA, and for that reason alone, he should quit and save us all embarassment.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

It will be tough for him to hold onto the job since motor racing is a family sport.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

There's been talk since the Malaysian qualifying incident about changing the rules as they apply to Q3, but I haven't seen anything official out of FIA. Does anyone know if there is to be a rule change?


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> There's been talk since the Malaysian qualifying incident about changing the rules as they apply to Q3, but I haven't seen anything official out of FIA. Does anyone know if there is to be a rule change?


Something about the cool down lap having to be within 120% of the driver's own Q3 fastest lap? :dunno:

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

That percentage rule has been floated but I think they are waiting until everyone gets together at the upcoming race.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> That percentage rule has been floated but I think they are waiting until everyone gets together at the upcoming race.


At least The Turd won't be there to make a mess of those discussions.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> At least The Turd won't be there to make a mess of those discussions..


There are a lot of teams asking him to step down, BMW, Merc, Toyota, Honda ....


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> There are a lot of teams asking him to step down, BMW, Merc, Toyota, Honda ....


As well as Jody Scheckter, Sir Jackie Stewart, Sterling Moss... and of course, me.

Odd that the FIA never replies to any of my e-mail messages.

.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> As well as Jody Scheckter, Sir Jackie Stewart, Sterling Moss... and of course, me.
> 
> Odd that the FIA never replies to any of my e-mail messages.
> 
> .


+1 (though not because of his escapades...that's just fluff)


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Worth noting in all of this is that His Royal Highness, Crown Prince Salman Bin Hamad Al-Khalifa of Bahrain, has prevented The Turd from showing up at this weekend's race.

"We want the race to be the main event of this weekend, not anything else." To paraphrase from Finnish.

And Bernie seems to agree.


.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Mosley calls extraordinary FIA meeting 

By Jonathan Noble Thursday, April 3rd 2008, 14:47 GMT 


FIA president Max Mosley has called an Extraordinary General Assembly meeting of motor racing's governing body to discuss the fallout of the tabloid revelations into his private life.

On the back of a raft of calls for the FIA to take action over the matter, Mosley has asked the president of the FIA Senate to arrange the meeting for the earliest possible date.

In a statement issued by the FIA on Thursday, it said: "The full membership of the FIA will be invited to attend the meeting at which the widespread publicity following an apparently illegal invasion of the FIA President's privacy will be discussed.

"The FIA has noted that Mr Mosley is preparing legal proceedings against the newspaper in question.

"It is anticipated that the meeting will take place in Paris. It will be held on the earliest practicable date. No further comments will be made by the FIA regarding the matter at this stage."

The move by Mosley comes after Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Honda Racing and Toyota all issued statements expressing their unease at the stories of Mosley's private life that appeared in the News of the World last week.

Autosport.com understands Mosley has called the meeting because he wants to provide the FIA will total clarity of his position.

The Senate is formed by over 200 members so it is likely it will take some times before the meeting is arranged.

It is understood that Mosley is to issue another statement tomorrow.

Despite several calls for Mosley to resign, he indicated in a letter he wrote to FIA members earlier this week that he was fully committed to carrying on in his role.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

The spy scandal last year and now Max this year. Not good, not good for F1.

Some teams may even withdraw if Max doesn't leave. BMW and Merc might pull out


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> ...
> 
> BMW and Merc might pull out


Don't count on that happening. Too much investment at stake.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

They can not afford the bad publicity. They will force him out by threatening to quit.


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## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

franka said:


> The move by Mosley comes after *Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Honda Racing and Toyota* all issued statements expressing their unease at the stories of Mosley's private life that appeared in the News of the World last week.


Interesting... the Axis powers... (minus the Italians)... :eeps:

No complaints from any of the Allied teams? :angel:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Salvator said:


> No complaints from any of the Allied teams? :angel:


Not when you have someoene else doing it for you.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Here is the last part of what Theissen had to say today..


Theissen said he was not surprised that Mosley has bucked all calls to resign and fully intends to remain in his role as FIA president.

"Having been in F1 for nine years now, I am not surprised about anything any more," said Theissen. "But let me add one other thing.

"This entire issue is in focus now, but what shouldn't be neglected is it certainly looks like a trap. And that is something which in our view is not acceptable either."


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Mosley called an Extraordinary General Meeting of the FIA which is more than 200 members to plead his case as well as to buy some time as such a meeting will not occur in a few days.

I can not imagine a position inside the FIA for Mosley that the German and Asian squads would accept.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Salvator said:


> Interesting... the Axis powers... (minus the Italians)... :eeps:
> 
> No complaints from any of the Allied teams? :angel:


Technically, I think you'd say Merc is an Allied team (as in McLaren), and BMW is half-neutral (as in the Hinwil/Sauber component.) Interesting observation, though.


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## Salvator (Oct 14, 2003)

berford said:


> Technically, I think you'd say Merc is an Allied team (as in McLaren), and BMW is half-neutral (as in the Hinwil/Sauber component.) Interesting observation, though.


I stand corrected... You are absolutely right! :thumbup:

I'm sure the Germans are especially wary of the situation... They do not want to appear at all sympathetic to anything related to Nazism... Interestingly, they are also very concerned about privacy rights... had his fetish only been for S&M, they probably would not have been as concerned, and would have decried the invasion of his privacy. However, as soon as Mosley brought Nazis into the mix, all bets were off... :yikes:


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

Bahrain practice runs on Speed tomorrow at 700 :thumbup:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Ouch.

Hamilton is going to need a new car after that shunt!


.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

Patrick said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Hamilton is going to need a new car after that shunt!
> 
> .


Yep, saw that. According to Speed there are no other cars so the mechanics are going to be busy today


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Pole on Pole. Woohoo!!!:thumbup:


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

*WE HAVE POLE!!!!! WE HAVE POLE!!! * :wailing:

I am SOOOO EXCITED!!! Our draught is over!!!:wailing: I can't believe its finally happening again!! :beerchug::fruit::sabrina::freakdanc

McLaren and Prawcing Donkey can KISS MY A$$!!! :roundel::bareass::bareass:


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Pole doesn't mean we'll have a first win but it's looking good! :thumbup:

Kimi's times in frist and last sector were identical to Kubica's but he was few tenths slower in middle sector so it looks like he has more fuel onboard. He still is my favorite to win the race. Kubica will deliver if the car is fast enough to challenge Ferrari but I doubt it's the case. They are faster than McLaren so another podium is very likely.

Hoping for the win :roundel:

Worst case scenario Massa loses contol again and takes them both out in first corner :eeps:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

beewang said:


> WE HAVE POLE!!!!! WE HAVE POLE!!!
> 
> I am SOOOO EXCITED!!! Our draught is over!!! I can't believe its finally happening again!!
> 
> McLaren and Prawcing Donkey can KISS MY A$$!!!


Welcome to the 2008 Formula 1 SPOILER thread. 

.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

I live on the West Coast and have got up at 4:00 AM the last two mornings to watch the race prep. Kubica looks for real. He had good times in practice, had I believe the 2nd best time in the 2nd rd of qualifying and now grabs the pole. He will need an excellent start as I believe the Ferraris are still faster. If he gets off well, then he should be able to keep Massa behind him. It seems the BMW Saubers are still a little lacking in top end speed, but they must be handling pretty well through the turns to get the pole. Because Kubica lost about two seconds between his pole run and the 2nd qualifier, he must be running a decent amount of fuel as well. Should be a fun race tomorrow if Massa keeps his head.


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## BigCo540i (Jul 2, 2007)

It's about time we have an F1 season with more than 2 teams in the battle! 

No matter who you like the most, if you're on this forum you have to pull for Kub.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Lewis Hamilton gets a big :thumbdwn:

The wreck on Friday, the start today (2nd gear), smashing into Alonso and then the silly hand signals to Sato and Fisichella. :tsk:

:rofl:


.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

A bad start from Kubica. That was dissapointing. He said he was bothered by oil when passed by Kimi. Going into the season, I didn't think I would be dissapointed by 3rd and 4th. If Heidfeld learns to qualify the car better, he might do very well. He seemed faster than Kubica today. I am not sure if its BMW doing so well or McLaren doing so bad that has BMW the second best team. Hopefully, BMW will continue to improve and Ferrari will have a few more reliability issues. That would be the scenario for the first BMW Sauber win. At this point in the season, Ferrari is in a class of its own, performance wise and BMW has quite a ways to go.


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## E36FewInNumber (May 19, 2007)

Patrick said:


> Lewis Hamilton gets a big :thumbdwn:
> 
> The wreck on Friday, the start today (2nd gear), smashing into Alonso and then the silly hand signals to Sato and Fisichella. :tsk:
> 
> ...


+1

I'm sure we'll being hearing about it too, he definitely didn't live up to his hype today. other than the Australian GP this hasn't been a very great begging for him.

I'm slightly disappointed that kubica dropped 1st and 2nd so fast but i guess it's hard to compete with Ferrari these days.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

E36FewInNumber said:


> +1
> 
> I'm sure we'll being hearing about it too, he definitely didn't live up to his hype today. other than the Australian GP this hasn't been a very great begging for him.
> 
> I'm slightly disappointed that kubica dropped 1st and 2nd so fast but i guess it's hard to compete with Ferrari these days.


I see BMW at the top of the team list...aand Nick at Robert at 2 an 4. Not too shabby.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Ron Dennis is dismissing BMW as a threat. Says that when they get to Europe the pace of McLaren development and Ferrari too will out pace all others. He is basically dissing BMW.

He may live to regret those comments if his boy doesn't get his act together.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I don't know if McLaren can be trusted to tell the truth.


Hamilton wing was broken on first lap 

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, April 8th 2008, 11:17 GMT 


Lewis Hamilton's front wing was broken early in the first lap of the Bahrain Grand Prix, photographs of his car prove, as mystery surrounds suggestions that his second-lap collision with Fernando Alonso was down to an unexpected mechanical failure.

McLaren told autosport.com today that they stand by their explanation that the upper front wing of Hamilton's car broke two seconds before he ran into the back of Alonso on lap two at Bahrain.

They claim the breakage led to a sudden loss of downforce, which sucked Hamilton into Alonso's slipstream much quicker that he was likely anticipating.

The team suspect that the wing breakage was caused as the result of a collision Hamilton made with another car, believed to be Alonso, at Turn Four on the opening lap.

The team's F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh said in a statement issued by the team: "It was only when I went into the engineers' room and started looking at the details that I realised Lewis's upper front wing had disappeared about two seconds before the accident, so he suddenly lost downforce."

However, onboard footage of Hamilton's car suggests that the bridge wing had broken, and parts of it flew off, as he exited Turn Four on the opening lap.

The damage has also been confirmed in photographs of Hamilton's car on the opening lap, clearly showing that the bridge wing was damaged early on.

Hamilton has already put the accident with Alonso down to a simple racing incident, and it is possible that the already broken wing could have affected his car's handling and drag levels.

With Alonso appearing to have a messy exit from Turn Two on the second lap, it is possible that Hamilton closed in on his rival much quicker than he expected, and was caught out as he tried to move around his rival.

Speaking after the race about what happened in the Alonso crash, Hamilton said: "I was behind him I went to move to the right and he went to move to the right as well and I ended up on the back somehow. It's racing."


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

franka said:


> Ron Dennis is dismissing BMW as a threat. Says that when they get to Europe the pace of McLaren development and Ferrari too will out pace all others. He is basically dissing BMW.
> 
> He may live to regret those comments if his boy doesn't get his act together.


Ron does that all the time. Remember last year when he talked about BMW's qualifying "stunt" in Australia? I think he's just trying to puff himself up. Fact of the matter is that BMW was faster than either of the two McMercs during the weekend, and they've got more stuff coming down the pipe.

I think what we're seeing is that McMerc was maybe a little too reliant on getting Ferrari engineering data in recent years, and now that they've had to start from scratch with their own designs, they are a little lacking.

-MrB


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Ron is always about tomorrow. "Next season" is one of his favorate phrases. Ask Kimi and Montoya.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Did anyone notice, BMW is still leading the constructor's championship? :yikes::bigpimp:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> Did anyone notice, BMW is still leading the constructor's championship? :yikes::bigpimp:


I did and its nice to see. I would like to see Kubica do well, maybe even beat my man Kimi to the championship, though I doubt we will see it this year.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Too bad the picture will not copy with the article. What the picture shows is 2 rectangular vents that are adjacent and on top of the nose cone about where the front suspension connects to the side of the nose cone. The rearmost exit is about 6" wide and about 4" long and tapers back into the top surface of the nose cone about another 5-6" back. The vent immedaitely before is smaller and its leading edge is V shaped. Both vents are back to back. You could say it was all one vent with a small wing across the opening.

It looks good. Looks hi tech and mysterious.


Ferrari show off radical new nose cone 

By Craig Scarborough Monday, April 14th 2008, 16:27 GMT 


After much speculation, Ferrari's radical new nose cone was finally unveiled today during testing at the Barcelona circuit.

As Felipe Massa tested the F2008 on Bridgestone's slick tyres, the car was fitted with a slotted nose cone.

This 'hole in the nose' is aimed at making use of the high-pressure air that builds up between the front wing and the underside of the nose. 

This would improve the car's downforce by sending a better airflow to the rear wing.

What Ferrari have done is to create a channel inside the nose cone that takes this high-pressure region and vents it over the top of the chassis.

From overhead shots the hole's outlet can be seen, with one large exit split into two. This probably helps the exit flow merge with the flow already passing over the car.

Ferrari were testing an array of pitot tubes in front of the engine's inlet snorkel. These sensors would have picked up the differing air speed going into and over the airbox.

This set-up would give Ferrari a comparative reading for the new nose's effect.

If the test goes well, Ferrari are expected to give the new nose its race debut in Spain in two weeks' time.

Massa finished the day over 2.5 seconds ahead of his closest rival.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Massa flies on slicks at Barcelona 

By Pablo Elizalde Monday, April 14th 2008, 16:13 GMT 


Felipe Massa set a blistering pace in Formula One's return to testing action, the Brazilian using slick tyres to finish over two and a half seconds in front of his closest rival at Barcelona.

Massa's best time of 1:18.339 put him 2.7 seconds ahead of Honda test driver Alex Wurz, who also set his best time on slick tyres.

The majority of the teams present at Barcelona were introducing new updates that will be raced for the first time when the European season kicks off in Spain later this month.

Massa's Ferrari team finally showed off a much rumoured radical new nose cone, with a hole on top of it, while McLaren tried a new rear wing - designed for 2009 regulations - and Renault tested several upgrades, including a new front wing.

McLaren's Pedro de la Rosa, who also tried out slicks, was third fastest, but over three seconds off Massa's pace. The Spaniard was the busiest man today with 113 laps covered.

Each team were allocated nine sets of slick tyres for the test, as Bridgestone continues work on preparing for the 2009 season, when grooved tyres will no longer be used. 

All drivers, except BMW's Nick Heidfeld and Toyota's Timo Glock, sampled the new tyres today. 

All the running done with slicks is outside the agreed testing mileage.

Despite not using the slick tyres, Heidfeld was fourth fastest, just a tenth behind de la Rosa, with Nelsinho Piquet down in fifth in the revamped Renault R28.

There were a total of four red flags today, caused by Glock, Piquet and Heidfeld spinning, and Williams's Kazuki Nakajima going off track late in the session.

"Today was a productive day and the team and mechanics did a good job," said Toyota's Glock. "Everybody was focused on the new bits and pieces that we have brought and trying to find the right way forward. 

"In the end that's what we did. I made one small mistake in the morning and spun off but it didn't cost us too much running time. In the afternoon we collected a lot of data to look at and now we just have to fine-tune that. 

"Hopefully overnight we can find the right direction from all the information we have gathered today. The time sheets might not show it yet but I'm happy with our work so far."


Today's times:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:18.339 77
2. Wurz Honda (B) 1:21.059 75
3. de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:21.566 113
4. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:21.679 105
5. Piquet Renault (B) 1:22.125 69
6. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:22.197 59
7. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:22.431 72
8. Glock Toyota (B) 1:22.590 92
9. Liuzzi Force India-Ferrari (B) 1:22.846 91


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Too bad the picture will not copy with the article. What the picture shows is 2 rectangular vents that are adjacent and on top of the nose cone about where the front suspension connects to the side of the nose cone. The rearmost exit is about 6" wide and about 4" long and tapers back into the top surface of the nose cone about another 5-6" back. The vent immedaitely before is smaller and its leading edge is V shaped. Both vents are back to back. You could say it was all one vent with a small wing across the opening.
> 
> It looks good. Looks hi tech and mysterious.
> ...
> ...


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


>


Does that picture show the inlet in the tip of the nose? If so the outlets are much, much larger.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Does that picture show the inlet in the tip of the nose? If so the outlets are much, much larger.


I'm not sure what your description refers to, so perhaps the pic doesn't show what you're talking about. I was just showing the new nose, which is quite different, except that it's red.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

The vents are almost as wide L to R as the entire top surface of the nose cone. They are as wide as the flat surface will allow, that is without cutting into the radiused edge of the top of the nose cone.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> I'm not sure what your description refers to, so perhaps the pic doesn't show what you're talking about. I was just showing the new nose, which is quite different, except that it's red.


I have not seen it but there is a hole in the tip of the nose cone OR under the tip of the nose cone such that high pressure air flows into it and is ducted to the top, as far back as the front suspension mounts.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> I have not seen it but there is a hole in the tip of the nose cone OR under the tip of the nose cone such that high pressure air flows into it and is ducted to the top, as far back as the front suspension mounts.


Here's a link that shows the outlet you're talking about; plus there are lots of little bells and whistles on other cars, like Honda's new "dumbo ears." http://www.formula1.com/gallery/testing/2008/269.html
Bernie doesn't allow you to copy the pics (or anything else), so this is the next best way to see what's going on.


----------



## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)




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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*A Snippet From Autosport Today*

Raikkonen also believes Lewis Hamilton's poor form at the last two races is a result of the McLaren slipping back into the clutches of BMW.

"If you don't have as a good a package as you had last year, then it is harder not to make a mistake," he added. "This is what happens."


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Raikkonen also believes Lewis Hamilton's poor form at the last two races is a result of the McLaren slipping back into the clutches of BMW.
> 
> "If you don't have as a good a package as you had last year, then it is harder not to make a mistake," he added. "This is what happens."


What does "slipping back into the clutches of BMW" mean. Perhaps I'm losing something in the translation.

I believe Lewis's last performance was having a non-race-ready car after the shunt.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> What does "slipping back into the clutches of BMW" mean. Perhaps I'm losing something in the translation.
> 
> I believe Lewis's last performance was having a non-race-ready car after the shunt.


If you don't get it I can't help you.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

See if this helps...

BMW have finished on the podium at every race this season and had both cars ahead of the two McLarens at Bahrain two weeks ago.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> See if this helps...
> 
> BMW have finished on the podium at every race this season and had both cars ahead of the two McLarens at Bahrain two weeks ago.


The sentence still doesn't make sense. Perhaps that's not the way he said it.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

It was copied right off the Autosport site. Those are not words or phrasing


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

McLaren hopeful of strong outing in Spain 

By Pablo Elizalde Friday, April 18th 2008, 15:17 GMT 


McLaren are confident they have taken a step forward in performance ahead of next weekend's Spanish Grand Prix, which will mark the start of the European season.

The British team won the season-opening race in Australia but were unable to stop rivals Ferrari from taking commanding victories in the next two races in Malaysia and Bahrain.

McLaren have dropped back to third place in the standings, behind the Italian squad and BMW, who lead the constructors' championship.

In this week's test in Barcelona, McLaren introduced several updates that they are hoping will allow them to be more competitive next week.

"The Spanish Grand Prix sees us entering the European season and McLaren, along with all the other teams, will be in Barcelona with significant upgrade packages on the cars," said McLaren's F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh in a team preview. 

"The cars remain relatively consistent over the course of the flyaway races and this race weekend is the first opportunity to understand how we have moved forward with performance and developed the MP4-23 in comparison with our primary competitors. 

"We are confident that we have improved the performance of the car, but this week's test was not an accurate indicator of performance, so we will need to wait for the race to establish how the MP4-23 will fair."

Lewis Hamilton, aiming to fight back following a dismal Bahrain Grand Prix, is also optimistic McLaren will enjoy a strong outing in Spain.

The Briton, however, admits it's hard to predict how much the other teams have improved.

"It's always difficult to predict these things as all the teams are continuously progressing," he said. "Winter testing there was positive and this week we have covered a good amount of laps. I feel we have a competitive package at the track; the car seems to work quite well. 

"We have a range of new components coming on board for this race which we tested this week and had some positive results, but we are not alone in doing this."


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

Big Ron has been saying "let's see what happens in Spain" all along. Can't wait to see what new tricks they've got. IMO if they still can't catch the red cars, they are in BIG trouble.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Check out Räikkönen and Heidfeld's new Schuberth helmets.

These have been developed in wind tunnels to work with the aerodynamics of their cars, and cost 50000 EUR each! That is $80,000 USD per helmet. :yikes: 


.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Check out Räikkönen and Heidfeld's new Schuberth helmets.
> 
> These have been developed in wind tunnels to work with the aerodynamics of their cars, and cost 50000 EUR each! That is $80,000 USD per helmet. :yikes:
> 
> .


Can't find any pics at the moment. Do you have some.

Also, is this for real?


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

Here we go again....Renault thinks they will be close to BMW this week...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66788


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

berford said:


> Also, is this for real?


That looks like a F2003 in pre-season testing. I don't think it's real.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Can't find any pics at the moment. Do you have some.


None. But we will see them tomorrow morning. There might be some pics by the afternoon.

BTW, that Ferrari pic was from Bahrain testing, earlier this year. I have no clue what they were working on with that!

.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Bruce said:


> Here we go again....Renault thinks they will be close to BMW this week...
> 
> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66788


Well, team principals generally have to be upbeat in the press. If you say the year is going to be a disaster, then sponsors (and perhaps even drivers) will leave in droves

And Hamilton certainly won't have many happy memories of trying to overtake Alonso


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

*Practice 2, very strange:*

POSDRIVERNATIONALITYENTRANTTIME1.Kimi RaikkonenFinlandFerrari1:21.9352.Nelson PiquetBrazilRenault1:22.0193.Fernando AlonsoSpainRenault1:22.0324.Kazuki NakajimaJapanWilliams-Toyota1:22.1725.Felipe MassaBrazilFerrari1:22.2296.Mark WebberAustraliaRed Bull-Renault1:22.2387.Nico Rosberg[TD]Williams-Toyota1:22.266 8.David CoulthardBritainRed Bull-Renault1:22.2899.Giancarlo FisichellaItalyForce India-Ferrari1:22.38310.Adrian Sutil[TD]Force India-Ferrari1:22.548 11.Lewis HamiltonBritainMcLaren-Mercedes1:22.68512.Robert KubicaPolandBMW Sauber1:22.78813.Nick Heidfeld[TD]BMW Sauber1:23.130 14.Jarno TrulliItalyToyota1:23.22415.Jenson ButtonBritainHonda1:23.26316.Heikki KovalainenFinlandMcLaren-Mercedes1:23.26417.Rubens BarrichelloBrazilHonda1:23.41518.Sebastian Vettel[TD]Toro Rosso-Ferrari1:23.661 19.Sebastien BourdaisFranceToro Rosso-Ferrari1:23.68420.Timo Glock[TD]Toyota1:23.883 21.Takuma SatoJapanSuper Aguri-Honda1:25.11022.Anthony DavidsonSuperSuper Aguri-Honda1:25.163
*******>*******>
********>********>


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Yes, the second session was a bit strange. A lot of drivers had problems in the third sector, especially Hamilton.

And no one really knows about the fuel loads that the Renault cars had. However, Briatore promised a podium finish for his team. 

Kovalainen had a hydraulic leak (gearbox) in the first session, and then some major failure in the second. He also got a 1420 EUR speeding ticket for going 6.8Km/h over the 60Km/h limit.

Bummer.


.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

BMW is running mid pack once more. It's like deja vu all over again :rofl:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

jcatral14 said:


> BMW is running mid pack once more. It's like deja vu all over again :rofl:


This is just practice...don't mean a thing.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

DANGIT I forgot to record. Note to self.

Don't forget qualy and race!

BMW ran low pack in Practice and then Kubica got 2nd on the grid after he drifted a corner


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> This is just practice...don't mean a thing.


Yep. The guys on TV here think that BMW was working on their Q3 performance/strategy with heavier fuel loads during today's second free practice session.

However, tomorrow morning's free practices session (with race engines) should be very interesting. Or at least the last 30 minutes of it.

BTW, there is rain in the forecast for Sunday afternoon... :eeps:

.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

berford said:


> This is just practice...don't mean a thing.


I know it is. I was commenting on the pattern


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Every Friday, they trot out the new parts and work on the race setup. Its boring for us, but you can't argue with the results so far. A new rear wing and wing mount plus a new engine cover is all Willi Rampf would disclose, but I am sure there is more.

The most interesting thing I heard this morning was teams are working on a J damper also call an inertia damper. I am going to puruse the Internet to see if there is any info on this. A similar device, called a mass damper was disallowed last year I believe due to it being considered a movable aerodynamic device.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Inertia Damper: Absorbs the motion energy by a shearing effect which produces a torque that opposes the unwanted oscillatory motion. In other words, it should cancel the effects of rotational mass which, from my understanding, is the most unwanted mass in a racing car. The example I found is not related to a race car per se, so I don't know where it would be mounted, how big or what it would look like. Rotational mass is one reason, among others, that they got rid of cam shafts and went to pheumatic valves.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

The hole in the snout of the Ferrari is to vent the air under the nose to provide more down force in the front of the car. Sort of like a vacuum effect, sucking it down a bit. Depending on how it works, it could actually be quite a difference. I think it will be hard to tell, since Ferrari looks like they will be much better than the rest, but we can hope.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

We're #3? The McLarens look to be back as the second best team. Hamilton was never challenged by Kubica and had a much better start. I think Kubica needs to work on his starts. They are abismal and have cost him many points so early in the season. Even Renault looked better than BMW until Alonso's engine failure. He was not as light on fuel as most suspected. Therefore, I think we can assume they have improved the car dramatically and may be a challenge to BMW for the third best team. Some how, BMW needs to get so speed in this car. Heidfeld had a difficult time passing a Force India car even though he was very close coming out of the final quarter into the long straight. I am highly disappointed. I thought BMW was going to make a break though, but they clearly took a step back.


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## E36FewInNumber (May 19, 2007)

sbdon said:


> I thought BMW was going to make a break though, but they clearly took a step back.


I don't think they took a step back. it's just that all other teams took a step forward. it's disappointing what happened to Alonso and also i would like to see Vettel complete at least half of a race.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

sbdon said:


> We're #3? The McLarens look to be back as the second best team. Hamilton was never challenged by Kubica and had a much better start. I think Kubica needs to work on his starts. They are abismal and have cost him many points so early in the season. Even Renault looked better than BMW until Alonso's engine failure. He was not as light on fuel as most suspected. Therefore, I think we can assume they have improved the car dramatically and may be a challenge to BMW for the third best team. Some how, BMW needs to get so speed in this car. Heidfeld had a difficult time passing a Force India car even though he was very close coming out of the final quarter into the long straight. I am highly disappointed. I thought BMW was going to make a break though, but they clearly took a step back.


It's not so much about being #3, it's about the time differential. Last year there was a significant gap between the top two and BMW. This year, Ferrari may be out by themselves, but BMW and McLaren are very close. Now it's up to the development process to continue to improve the F1.08. They were able to keep up last year and they many have not fully found the best of this car yet either. The other teams (particularly the top teams) are working just as hard to improve. That's what F1 is all about. I hope the FIA doesn't take it away...

Where was Renault at the end? In a cloud of smoke... Alonso may have been over stressing the engine, using the full 19k RPM, leading to it's failure and after his stop he wasn't so much of a factor either. It's pretty clear they were putting on a show for the Spanish crowd. There's nothing wrong with that either. They'll improve, but they've got a long way to go.

Barcelona is renown for being a difficult place to pass. It wouldn't have done Nick much good to have Fisi take him off trying to pass. In fact, he did go by after a better entry onto the straight. I don't see a step back.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Hamilton was under a little bit of pressure from Kubica. And if Heidfeld had qualified better, BMW could have scored some nice points with a 4-5 or so finish

It's also nice to see some other cars with some potential. Renault, obviously the talk of the pre-race weekend after Alonso put the car on the front row. Red Bull and Honda also did well


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

So, Kovalainen was going 260km/h when the left front wheel exploded. And he sustained a 26g impact into the tyre wall. 

I hope that he recovers completely.


.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

SteveT said:


> It's not so much about being #3, it's about the time differential. Last year there was a significant gap between the top two and BMW. This year, Ferrari may be out by themselves, but BMW and McLaren are very close. Now it's up to the development process to continue to improve the F1.08. They were able to keep up last year and they many have not fully found the best of this car yet either. The other teams (particularly the top teams) are working just as hard to improve. That's what F1 is all about. I hope the FIA doesn't take it away...
> 
> Where was Renault at the end? In a cloud of smoke... Alonso may have been over stressing the engine, using the full 19k RPM, leading to it's failure and after his stop he wasn't so much of a factor either. It's pretty clear they were putting on a show for the Spanish crowd. There's nothing wrong with that either. They'll improve, but they've got a long way to go.
> 
> Barcelona is renown for being a difficult place to pass. It wouldn't have done Nick much good to have Fisi take him off trying to pass. In fact, he did go by after a better entry onto the straight. I don't see a step back.


+1 all around.

If Nick hadn't been caught with low fuel when the safety car went out, it would have been a very good showing for BMW...probably 4, 5.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

sbdon said:


> Inertia Damper: Absorbs the motion energy by a shearing effect which produces a torque that opposes the unwanted oscillatory motion. In other words, it should cancel the effects of rotational mass which, from my understanding, is the most unwanted mass in a racing car. The example I found is not related to a race car per se, so I don't know where it would be mounted, how big or what it would look like. Rotational mass is one reason, among others, that they got rid of cam shafts and went to pheumatic valves.


Its not about rotational damping, its about damping the vertical movement of the tire, its harmonics. The objective is keep the tire in full contact with the track surface at all times, especially over the curbs.

The engines still have cams, four of them to be exact. Small pneumatic cylinders replace the valve springs. Conventional valve springs, even the best of them, can not function at 18 to 20,000 rpms due to the spring's harmonics. Conventional springs, even the best, give up around 12,000 rpm max. There are very few that can reach 12,000


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

berford said:


> +1 all around.
> 
> If Nick hadn't been caught with low fuel when the safety car went out, it would have been a very good showing for BMW...probably 4, 5.


Yes, that was quite unfortunate. Although Nick will also to have to blame himself after a poor qualifying run.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

1985mb said:


> Yes, that was quite unfortunate. Although Nick will also to have to blame himself after a poor qualifying run.


True, but remember that he qualified with a bit more fuel than those ahead of him, too. After all, he was running in first when the SC came out.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Ron Dennis is singing his old song titled "The Next Race".

One of the song's lines are "wait till we get back to the European races". Well Ron, guess what? We are back. If you had as many improvements on the car as excuses for why your cars sucked, you would be King Dennis.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

I wish BMW's would get off the line a bit quicker...


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

berford said:


> True, but remember that he qualified with a bit more fuel than those ahead of him, too. After all, he was running in first when the SC came out.


Fair enough, but in his pre-race interview with Peter Windsor, Mario Theissen did say Nick had been struggling to some extent all weekend

Anyway, I think we agree Catalunya wasn't as bad for BMW as some made it out to be. We can still expect some good things from them this season (although they will probably be watching Renault's development more closely now, as they could conceivably be challenging for the "best of the rest" spot)


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

franka said:


> Its not about rotational damping, its about damping the vertical movement of the tire, its harmonics. The objective is keep the tire in full contact with the track surface at all times, especially over the curbs.
> 
> The engines still have cams, four of them to be exact. Small pneumatic cylinders replace the valve springs. Conventional valve springs, even the best of them, can not function at 18 to 20,000 rpms due to the spring's harmonics. Conventional springs, even the best, give up around 12,000 rpm max. There are very few that can reach 12,000


Thanks for the info about the cams. I always thought pheumatic values = no cams. On the other point about the vertical movement of the tires, wouldn't that be an unsprung weight issue instead of inertial force issue? Matchett never mentioned the J damper in regard to unsprung issues, but that doesn't mean the two are not tied together. I am just trying to put together the bits he provided this weekend. According to Matchett, the J damper is different than the mass damper that was ruled to be a movable aero device which is illegal. How would the damper work if it is for vertical movement of the tires? I not saying your wrong, rather I want to know how it works. These kinds of things, aero included, are what I find interesting in racing.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I do not know the details of its construction though I can say it's objective is to to keep the tire on the road. To prevent vertical oscillation of the tire, especially over the curbs. To improve mechanic grip.

I have something on this at home and if I remember I will look it up this evening and post it.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Interesting reading on the J-damper: http://www.f1network.net/boards/read/s85.htm?85,9260946


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

sbdon said:


> Interesting reading on the J-damper: http://www.f1network.net/boards/read/s85.htm?85,9260946


I saw that yesterday. Lots of talk of a J damper but nothing about its objective or how it works.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

There is some info here about the J damper but it mostly supposition about the drawing that is in the above link and reprinted here.

http://www.speedtv.com/forums/viewthread/225951/


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

In the world of autos jounce means to compress the suspension so we have a jounce damper. A damper that works when suspension in compressed.

It damps out the vertical oscillations.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Czech official stands by comments 

By Jonathan Noble and Ludek Stanek Thursday, May 1st 2008, 17:14 GMT 


Radovan Novak, the head of the Czech Automobile Association who has controversially suggested McLaren could have been involved in bringing to light the sex scandal surrounding Max Mosley, has said he stands by his belief the matter could be related to last year's spy controversy.

McLaren have written a letter to Novak asking him to clarify comments he gave in a recent interview with Prague station, Radio Impuls, where he talked about the chance of McLaren being involved in a set-up against Mosley.

Speaking about the possibility of a set-up, Novak said: "I wouldn't like to talk about what kind of set-up it was, but I believe it was a set-up, because of what happened recently. When the FIA, from the proposal of Mosley, fined someone significantly, then it gives you the feeling that it could be like that."

Novak subsequently confirmed his suspicions of McLaren in the interview, but there is some debate over the meaning of a word in his original statement, which does not have a direct English translation.

Team boss Ron Dennis issued a statement on Thursday categorically denying any involvement in the matter as he seeks answers as to what Novak did really mean in his interview.

Despite the letter and the strong denial from McLaren, Novak told the Czech Press Agency on Thursday that he stands by his comments about the Woking-based team.

"It's definitely one of the possibilities every intelligent person has to consider," Novak was quoted as saying by the agency. "But maybe Mr. Mosley already knows who is behind it."

In the original interview with Radio Impuls, Novak said that Mosley's chances of winning the vote of confidence he will face at the FIA General Assembly on June 3 could go either way.

"It's 50/50," said Novak, who is a member of the World Motor Sport Council and an ally of Mosley. "Right now, the FIA has two so-called "councils", mobility and the automobile, and sporting.

"I'm a member of the sporting council (WMSC). There are 24 people (excluding Mosley and F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone) and actually last week we had a poll about how this thing should go and what should happen there.

"In fact, there were nine people in favour of Mr. Mosley, nine people against him and six people who abstained from voting.

"If you project these numbers to all the member states, then I personally see it as 50/50.

"I personally believe that the sporting clubs will stick with Mosley and the automobile ones, or as they like to call themselves 'mobility', some will go against him."


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Czech official stands by comments
> 
> By Jonathan Noble and Ludek Stanek Thursday, May 1st 2008, 17:14 GMT
> 
> ...


*Why would anyone even report on comments which are clearly speculative and unfounded in fact?  Boggles the mind. And, what does it matter who outed him...he's been summarily outed. And, by the way, anyone who defends his behaviour [sic and sick] is just as weird as he is. May The Turd rot in [explitive deleted, for sake of any children present.]*

*.*


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Bmw*

Rampf from BMW stated that the top 3 are so close that just a small improvement by any of the 3 teams would put them in the lead.

I guess he didn't see the last race that had 2 safety car outings. If it wasn't for that McLaren and BMW would have been far back.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

This article is in direct contradiction to what Rampf from BMW said and thinks. See above post. I'm surprised that Haug is this truthful about where McLaren stands. Or maybe he isn't truthful at all and is simply attempting to lower expectations. :dunno:


Haug admits Ferrari are favourites 

By Jonathan Noble Friday, May 2nd 2008, 16:02 GMT 


Mercedes-Benz motorsport boss Norbert Haug admits that rivals Ferrari are heading to next weekend's Turkish Grand Prix as favourites for victory, as he predicts what could be a 'challenging' time for McLaren.

Ferrari have won at Istanbul for the last two years and Haug is well aware that McLaren could be in for a difficult time as they bid to overhaul their rivals.

"We didn't really shine here in the past, and also this time we are not the current benchmark," said Haug. "The team wants to score as many points as possible, but after three consecutive wins Ferrari obviously arrive here as the favourites."

Although Haug is confident McLaren can make the steps they need to take the championship fight to Ferrari, he does not think the team are in a strong enough position yet - despite some encouraging speed in Barcelona last weekend.

"Barcelona as the first Grand Prix of the European season and, with its challenging track layout, is definitely a yardstick for the following races," explained Haug. "In qualifying, we missed pole position by less than three tenths of a second; however, we carried a little more fuel and therefore more weight. 

"Anyway, even with the same fuel load we wouldn't have been fast enough to beat Ferrari. Since winning the season opener in Melbourne, our car has improved gradually and has become significantly faster. 

"Unfortunately, we didn't score all possible points, neither in Melbourne, Malaysia, Bahrain or Barcelona, mostly due to self-induced mistakes and this is the reason for the gap to the top of the rankings, after Ferrari had scored only one point in Melbourne. Our aim is to improve further over the next few races, however it is possible the Turkish Grand Prix might be a challenging race for the team."

Lewis Hamilton thinks qualifying will be crucial in Turkey, and he admits McLaren need to get their MP4-23 much quicker in slower sections of tracks.

"Given the challenging nature of the circuit, we have come away from Barcelona with some confidence for the high speed corners, but we also come away knowing that we have areas where we need to strengthen the car," said the Briton.

"The tighter, more twisty parts of the Circuit de Catalunya were certainly our Achilles heel during the race weekend, and there has been a lot of analysis and study of that as we endeavour to strengthen our car in that area."


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Good bye Super Aguri.

I wonder if they will be required to pay Honda the 62 million Euros that they owe. Yikes.

I also wonder if having 20 cars on the grid will cause any changes to the qualifying.


.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Good bye Super Aguri.
> 
> I wonder if they will be required to pay Honda the 62 million Euros that they owe. Yikes.
> 
> ...


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*The mysterious J damper*

In the suspension area, Renault is believed to have run J-dampers for the first time. These dampers, also known as inertia dampers, aim to replicate the action of mass dampers, i.e. to remove the 'bounce' in the tyres from upsetting the suspension.

Many teams are believed to be running the dampers and in fact their design is not new, as Sam Michael told Autosport.com: "We believe most teams have been using them for a couple of seasons now".

Unlike mass dampers which were mounted inside the nose cone (or inside the gearbox), inertia dampers are fitted amongst the normal springs and dampers in the suspension, most likely replacing the third dampers, front and rear.

As they are a recognisable part of the suspension, they may well be declared legal - unlike mass dampers. According to Michael, "These are different to mass dampers and fully legal because they are part of the suspension system".

The actual inertia damper consists of a conventional-looking damper body with a cylindrical mass inside that is spun as the suspension moves. This takes the energy given out by the spring in the tyres by the suspension maintaining an ideal contact patch load.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

The last paragraph above leaves a lot to question. It's like someone mumbling when they are not sure of what they are saying.

Why is it called a "J" damper? That is an important bit of detail.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Is it just me, or is it kinda weird that there is just one humongous thread for everything related to F1?


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Peter Winsor reported that Ferrari thinks the BMWs are heavy with fuel. If true, that is probably a good ploy since they are not close to Ferrari and a bit off of McLaren as well.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Finally, a good start for both BMWs. Kubica picked up one and Heidfeld picked up two. BMW still down on speed to both Ferrari and McLaren. Kubica was 2 Km slower than Hamilton and about the same as Kovelinen. Heidfeld slower than two or three others. Finishing 4th and 5th is about what could be expected so not bad, but no gain either. Kubica seemed to be on the same schedule as Massa, so he wasn't heavy as speculated.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I have to say that I really enjoyed the race, Kubica did great, there was some action on track and LH with his strategy delivered even more excitment.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I have a feeling that Kubica may surprise everybody at Monaco, he claims that if everybody raced Barcelona cars there BMW would have a chance to fight for the win.
I guess we need to see how much progress BMW makes in comparison to Ferrari and McLaren.

I looked at the sector times and Kubica was very fast in slow sections of the track but his trap speeds were lower than even Trulli, Glock and Rosberg: http://www.fia.com/turkeygp/timing.html


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> I have a feeling that Kubica may surprise everybody at Monaco, he claims that if everybody raced Barcelona cars there BMW would have a chance to fight for the win.
> I guess we need to see how much progress BMW makes in comparison to Ferrari and McLaren.
> 
> I looked at the sector times and Kubica was very fast in slow sections of the track but his trap speeds were lower than even Trulli, Glock and Rosberg: http://www.fia.com/turkeygp/timing.html


Also of interest is the timing on the pit laps where Hamilton bested everyone by about 3 seconds (total of both pit stop laps) and BMWs (taken together) were several seconds off the Ferrari times. Always a good way to make up or lose time.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

MI5 officer resigns over Mosley affair 

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, May 18th 2008, 06:43 GMT 


An officer in the British Security Service agency MI5 has been forced to resign after admitting his wife was one of the prostitutes who took part in the orgy with FIA president Max Mosley, according to a report in the Sunday Times.

The newspaper claims that the officer, who cannot be named for security reasons, left the service last month following the revelation that his wife was one of five prostitutes involved in the orgy at the centre of the News of the World expose.

Amid suggestions from Mosley that he was set up by unnamed figures, however, MI5 has strongly denied it was involved in a sting.

"Any suggestion that the service was involved in setting up Mosley is total nonsense," a senior Whitehall official told the Sunday Times.

The officer who was forced to resign had to leave, however, because his wife's activities could have compromised security and left him open to blackmail.

The official added: "I cannot talk about individual cases, but we do expect high standards of behaviour from all staff at all times, both professionally and privately. In any case where a member of staff is believed to have fallen below those standards, action will be taken."

Mosley is facing a confidence vote in his position as president at an FIA General Assembly meeting on June 3, and wrote to the presidents of the national automobile clubs last week warning them the sport's governing body could lose control of F1 if he is forced out.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

I didn't see anything in the press about it (of on the official FIA web site), but the Speed commentators mentioned that Ferrari was allowed to make an engine modification which, I believe they said, allowed more efficient oil distribution to the engine. Seems to fly in the face of the regs. No?


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Found this when I was looking through the FIA web site: http://www.everyrace.net/ Pretty cool, IMO.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Rah rah


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Lose control if he is forced out!


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> I didn't see anything in the press about it (of on the official FIA web site), but the Speed commentators mentioned that Ferrari was allowed to make an engine modification which, I believe they said, allowed more efficient oil distribution to the engine. Seems to fly in the face of the regs. No?


Not in all cases. Anything can be changed if you can convince the officials


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Heidfeld misses Q3. He was 1.3 seconds off of the leader in Q2. Kubica came in 6th, but doesn't look like he can challenge for the pole. The big surprise, Rosberg second in Q2. However, he was running the soft compound and probably won't factor in Q3.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Kubica comes in 5th in Q3 about 4/10 of a second off of Massa. Raikonen second, Hamilton 3rd and Kovelinen 4th. Rosberg was 6th. It looks like there could be wet weather and with no traction control, there is a high probability that at least one of the top four will have an error so its still possible for Kubica to get a podium, but don't count on it.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

sbdon said:


> Kubica comes in 5th in Q3 about 4/10 of a second off of Massa. Raikonen second, Hamilton 3rd and Kovelinen 4th. Rosberg was 6th. It looks like there could be wet weather and with no traction control, there is a high probability that at least one of the top four will have an error so its still possible for Kubica to get a podium, but don't count on it.


I'm counting on it. I predict Kubica gets 8 points if it's wet.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

WTF is up with Heidfeld? I haven't had a chance to see the runs from today, but saw the write up about him being so far behind.


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## gokartmozart (Oct 6, 2006)

Heidfeld didn't say much...

Robert Kubica qualified fifth for the Monaco Grand Prix. For his team mate a sequence came to a stop: for 28 consecutive races Nick Heidfeld had qualified in the top ten, but in Monaco he only came 13th. A red flag after an accident for David Coulthard robbed him of his last opportunity to get a top ten position.

Robert Kubica: "Again we showed we have a good pace. I was pushing on every single lap of qualifying and this was all I could do today. Unfortunately on my last flying lap I had Lewis Hamilton in front of me. He did not hold me up, but whenever you have another car in front of you there is some kind of a risk. On my out lap I tried to widen the gap to Lewis so as to have no traffic. My tyres cooled down too much and I was very slow in the first sector of my quick lap."
*
Nick Heidfeld: "Unfortunately I don't have much to say: my qualifying result is disappointing. Here in Monaco I can't heat up the tyres quickly enough."*

Mario Theissen (BMW Motorsport Director): "From a technical point of view our qualifying was ok. Certainly, we are disappointed with Nick ending up 13th. Robert showed a good pace and was able to fight for the top positions. In the end he even could have been a position further up the grid, but fifth is ok."

Willy Rampf (Technical Director): "In the third Free Practice we had changing weather conditions. Therefore it was difficult to find the perfect set-up. In Q1 and Q2 Robert managed to get the results we expected. In Q3 he was not able to set the time we hoped for. In the end he missed the second row of the grid by six thousands of a second. Anyway, fifth is a good starting position. Meanwhile for Nick it will be a lot more difficult to score points in Monaco from 13th on the grid. However, for Sunday changing weather conditions are predicted, so we might see a surprise."


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Kubica takes second!. Everyone in front of him had at least one problem. He, however, had none. This race had so many incidents. No traction control, rain and Monaco equated to quite an event.


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## gokartmozart (Oct 6, 2006)

Congrats to Robert K. on the second place at Monaco! Great drive...


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Glad nothing exciting happened in the last 3 minutes of the race. Tivo recorded to that point and that was all. You would think Speed would time it correctly so in the event of hitting the 2 hour limit, they would have enough time to finish the race before the end of the program. Guess they're too eager to bring us more hick crap instead of real racing...

With Heidfeld's punctured tire, was that from Alonso making that idiotic move at the hairpin and knocking into him? Quite a shame that he made it up to 5th, then had to spend the rest of the race letting people pass and never having a chance to catch up.

And way to go Robert! Hopefully BMW Sauber can fend off the other teams and keep him.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

No contrats to ME for predicting a Kubica 2nd place finish???:rofl:


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

berford said:


> No contrats to ME for predicting a Kubica 2nd place finish???:rofl:


You seem to be influential on Kubica's performance... please predict 1st place in Canada  While you're at it, get Nick in the points so BMW can jump back up to second place for the Constructor's Standings.


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## bjf123 (Oct 6, 2005)

That was one of the most entertaining GPs in quite awhile. I feel sorry for Sutil getting punted out of the race through no fault of his own. Maybe Ferrari will provide the next engine gratis as a way of saying "Sorry about that, mate."


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

bknauss said:


> You seem to be influential on Kubica's performance... please predict 1st place in Canada  While you're at it, get Nick in the points so BMW can jump back up to second place for the Constructor's Standings.


Too early to tell, but more big points, for sure.:thumbup:


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Points? Probably. Podium? Not likely unless the team makes huge strides in getting the BMW competitive. Montreal is a much faster course. The BMW's lack of top end speed will hurt their chances. To get what speed they can, they will need to reduce the down force which will compromise them else where. Even Kubica is getting vocal about the lack of performance. He had only the fifth best lap at Monaco, a course that should have favored the BMW as much as any track they run this year. Don't get me wrong, I am very much a fan of the team, but they are realistically the third best team right now. They are going to have to step up the development to challenge even the McLarens. Talk of challenging the Ferraris is ridiculous under the current engine development rules.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

After some reading, the damage Alonso did to Heidfeld was much worse than I initially though. Nick said his entire left side was damaged, along with the punctured tire. Alonso definitely deserves a penalty for that move.

As for the fast laps at Monaco, I wouldn't say flat out that BMW didn't have one of the fastest cars for that course. Kubica and Massa were trading fast laps for a majority of the race. Once the track started drying out and others took a chance on switching to the dry tires, the fast laps started dropping like a rock. Once Kubica changed to dries and had a chance to get used to them (and also let all areas of the track dry up), he had slow people in front of him or the safety car was out. But... to your point about the more traditional tracks... BMW is #3 with top speed. On the other hand, everyone is far behind Ferrari.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

There were 2 stars at Monaco - Robert Kubica and Adrian Sutil. They were the only drivers that didn't make any mistakes and were on the pace. LH got lucky, the fact that he hit the barrier and damaged the tire caused the team to change his strategy and this is what gave him the win. 

It's gonna be interesting how Kubica will drive at Canada, the place of his huge accident last year. I bet he won't even think about it and go about his usual business. Let's hope that BMW will have some development pieces or that it rains. The car right now is really 3rd best.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> I'm counting on it. I predict Kubica gets 8 points if it's wet.


Yes, a very good prediction


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

This just in from Planet F1:
*Raikkonen escapes penalty*

*Monday 26th May 2008*











*Kimi Raikkonen won't be penalised for his crash with Adrian Sutil despite Force India calling for the World Champ to be banned.*

Raikkonen put Sutil out of a promising fourth place when the Ferrari driver lost control under braking and hit the back of the Force India car.

It was a disappointing end to the grand prix for the backmarker team who immediately called for the the Monaco GP race stewards to ban Raikkonen.

"Raikkonen always looked like doing stupid and in the end he did," tech director Mike Gascoyne said.

*"If that was the other way around, and it was a little Force India driver hitting the World Champion, then he would be facing a one- or two-race ban. We've asked the stewards to take a look and act accordingly."*

However, after reviewing the accident the stewards deemed that no action was necessary.

"The Stewards after hearing the explanation of both the Competitors representatives and the drivers decided that the incident requires no further action," they said in a statement.

*Note that I've bolded, italicized and changed the colour of a particularly cogent statement in the piece, above. In would say "Unbelieveable" except that it involves Ferrari, so no degree of favortism can be counted out. *


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> This just in from Planet F1:
> *Raikkonen escapes penalty*
> 
> *Monday 26th May 2008*
> ...


I see your point.

Personally I saw it as Kimi lost control of his car and then hit Sutil.

If Kimi was trying a stupid pass on Sutil and then knocked Sutil out then yes that does call for a penalty.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> I see your point.
> 
> Personally I saw it as Kimi lost control of his car and then hit Sutil.
> 
> If Kimi was trying a stupid pass on Sutil and then knocked Sutil out then yes that does call for a penalty.


I see your point, too. Obviously, Force India didn't. And I think they had good reason (not just "sour grapes") to call for sanctions, given similarities with other incidents where penalties of some sort have been passed out.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

The stewards, the authorities in these matters, called it a racing incident.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

berford said:


> I see your point, too. Obviously, Force India didn't. And I think they had good reason (not just "sour grapes") to call for sanctions, given similarities with other incidents where penalties of some sort have been passed out.


The reason they called for penalties is that it cost them around 5 million, acording to Collin Kolles, as this is the money they would receive for scoring points. 
As Frank has said it was just a racing accident, not a foolish pass attempt.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

F1Crazy said:


> The reason they called for penalties is that it cost them around 5 million, acording to Collin Kolles, as this is the money they would receive for scoring points.
> As Frank has said it was just a racing accident, not a foolish pass attempt.


First off, penalties wouldn't reverse the results and allow them any points...so that would be a silly reason to ask. I think Force was just (and justly) pi$$ed off and wanted to see if they could extract a little revenge. Of course they won't get that free engine now.:eeps::bawling:

Second, I don't disagree that it could easily be interpreted as a racing incident. But I also think there are similar cases where the interpretation has gone the other way, which is the point of the FI statement.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Even Mallay sees the event as a racing incident. See below "such things happen" near the end.

Sutil vindicates Mallya's faith

By Simon Strang Wednesday, May 28th 2008, 10:06 GMT

Force India team owner Vijay Mallya believes his faith in Adrian Sutil has been vindicated by the German's outstanding performance in the Monaco Grand Prix.

According to the Indian billionaire, Sutil has earned his place in Formula One after nearly scoring the team's first points with an extraordinary run to fourth place in the rain-affected Monte Carlo race, before he was hit by Kimi Raikkonen's Ferrari.

"Adrian Sutil has a lot of ability and talent, and we're glad and proud to have him in our team," said Mallya.

"Some people started questioning my decision to keep him when he didn't finish a few races at the start of the season, but I think he has more than redeemed himself."

Mallya also paid tribute to his team and cited their one-stop strategy as a key contributing factor to what was, by far, Force India's most competitive performance to date.

"The race strategy was right, the set-up was right, and to see a Force India car running fourth in Monaco was a great pleasure while it lasted," he said. "We were seven minutes from home. It was unfortunate, but I guess that's what racing is all about.

"I can't say that I'm not feeling sad, because I am, but we'll get over it and we'll take away a lot of positives."

"Our strategy was one stop, we filled ourselves up with fuel," he added. "I told both drivers to stay out of trouble on lap one. We have normally started very well and had incidents on the first lap, so I said stay right out of trouble, take your time, you're going to go for a one-stop strategy, bring both cars home.

"We knew that we were good in the wet, Adrian has demonstrated that before as well, and everything worked to perfection until that fateful moment."

Mallya admitted that the sight of Sutil trailing back to the pits with a broken rear suspension brought tear to his eyes.

"I was [nearly crying], and so were many of us actually." he said. "I've had quite a lot of SMS messages and phone calls from supporters in India, all of whom are I think highly emotional. But such things happen in racing, that's what I've been telling everyone. F1 wouldn't be F1 if it wasn't as unpredictable as it is."


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Even Mallay sees the event as a racing incident. See below "such things happen" near the end.
> 
> Sutil vindicates Mallya's faith ...


I'm not so sure he meant it the way you suggest. Elsewhere, we read:

"The frustration is that if that had been a Force India driver hitting a world champion we would expect to get a one or two race ban, but when it is the other way around it is disappointing that the stewards... well you know I hope they look at it and act accordingly," said Gascoyne.

As I'm sure you know, Gascoyne is Force India's chief technical officer.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> I'm not so sure he meant it the way you suggest. QUOTE]
> 
> Anyone can make a statement like that about anything therefore it carries no weight.
> 
> ...


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> berford said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not so sure he meant it the way you suggest. QUOTE]
> ...


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## ktonomura (Sep 12, 2007)

i was pretty chapped about Heidfeld's bad luck in monaco, he is my favorite driver and it just sucks to see him doing so badly, what makes it worse is he was in contention for more points until alonso hit him from what i've been hearing (I only caught highlights of the race). I'm hoping things go better for him in Canada, they are saying during qualifying he isnt getting heat in the tires quick enough, and that hes working with the engineers right now to remedy that problem... we'll see how that goes


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

ktonomura said:


> i was pretty chapped about Heidfeld's bad luck in monaco, he is my favorite driver and it just sucks to see him doing so badly, what makes it worse is he was in contention for more points until alonso hit him from what i've been hearing (I only caught highlights of the race). I'm hoping things go better for him in Canada, they are saying during qualifying he isnt getting heat in the tires quick enough, and that hes working with the engineers right now to remedy that problem... we'll see how that goes


He got a very raw deal. He had been sluggish throughout the practice and qualifying sessions, but was on a roll (having moved from 12th on the grid to 5th in the race) when Alonso blindsided him at the turn 6 hairpin and severely damaged the left side of the car--drivable, but not the same. So he probably would have had some points were it not for the incident.

In any event, Nick has not been particularly impressive this year, but perhaps he'll improve. Kubica continues to be awesome. He's a very sharp cookie behind the wheel, with a winning personality all around. Stay tuned.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> when Alonso blindsided him at the turn 6 hairpin and severely damaged the left side of the car--drivable, but not the same. So he probably would have had some points were it not for the incident.
> 
> 
> > Was Alonso penalized?


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## ktonomura (Sep 12, 2007)

that hamilton comment is kind of annoying, similar to the williams sisters in tennis never admitting a loss is their fault. How hard is it to say "i screwed up, they brought their A game today and I didnt" ? Argh.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

berford said:


> Quoth Ham:
> 
> "...The fact is we *destroyed everyone* this weekend. With the car we have right now there is *no stopping* us."
> 
> I've highlighted the key words out of Lewis' mouth.:yikes:


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yeah, he (and daddy) destroyed some things this weekend alright. Apparently, there's no stopping the Hamiltons, red lights and common sense be dammed


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

When the pressure's on LH seems to make mistakes. Last year and this year, when he has to make quick decisions he fails. No doubt about his talent, but he goes over the top quickly. Now he's starting the trash talking. We'll see where it all goes.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*More Bravado, More BS*

Hamilton says he can still win in France

By Pablo Elizalde Wednesday, June 11th 2008, 15:49 GMT

Briton Lewis Hamilton believes he can still win the French Grand Prix despite the penalty he was given in Canada.

The McLaren driver will lose ten grid positions at the Magny-Cours race after crashing into the back of Kimi Raikkonen when he failed to see the red light at the end of the pitlane in time.

Although that means Hamilton will start from at least 11th place in France, he is still confident he can finish on top.

"I feel quite confident that we can still win there. That's my job," Hamilton was quoted as saying by Reuters.

"I've got to have that belief in myself and the team. I still feel we can finish in the top three but it's going to be a real challenge."

Hamilton also dismissed suggestions that the Montreal incident was a career low.

"It was nowhere near one of my lowest points. I don't even particularly feel it was a low point. It was one of those things you just have to come to terms with and move on. In the race I was on top of my game," he said.

The Briton lost the championship lead to BMW Sauber's Robert Kubica in Canada and is now four points behind the Pole.

He added: "I believe it is going to be very difficult to win but I don't plan on it going to the last race. We will push as hard as we can to do the job, it doesn't matter if it is early or the last race. So long as we get it done."


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Go Kimi, Time to Kick some Ass, Again*

Raikkonen: Hamilton penalty was deserved

By Pablo Elizalde Wednesday, June 11th 2008, 16:33 GMT

Kimi Raikkonen believes Lewis Hamilton got the penalty he deserved following their crash at the Canadian Grand Prix.

The British McLaren driver will lose ten places on the grid in France after crashing into the back of his Ferrari rival's car at the end of the pitlane in Montreal.

Although Hamilton said the penalty was harsh, Raikkonen in fact reckons the Briton deserved it.

"I still can't believe it, that someone can hit you while you are standing at the red light next to another car," said Raikkonen. "I can't imagine how Hamilton could not see the red lights and the two cars standing in front of him.

"I think that Hamilton deserved the penalty. He looses ten positions on the grid for the next race in France, which will make it more difficult for him at Magny-Cours."

He added: "Anyway we lost the possibility to have a good result in Canada. At the moment when the safety car came on the track, my car was running very fast: we could have won, or, in the worst case, come second.

"I was ready to fight and overtake Kubica, once the lights were green. But I didn't have the time, as Hamilton crashed into my back and the race was over. I'm not angry. Just disappointed, surprised and frustrated at the same time. He knew that the lights were red.

"Accidents happen, but it's difficult not to see two cars stopped."

The Finn has not scored a point in the last two races and has dropped from first to fourth in the standings.

But Raikkonen is adamant that Ferari are strong and that he will return to winning ways soon.

"I came back from Montreal with a really good impression of the F2008 and I'm sure that we can win again very soon," he said. "Because now we go to circuits where we are usually very strong.

"You know that I don't like to look behind: I'm concentrated on the French GP, where I want to repeat last year's result, when we brought home a wonderful one-two win."


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

SteveT said:


> When the pressure's on LH seems to make mistakes. Last year and this year, when he has to make quick decisions he fails. No doubt about his talent, but he goes over the top quickly. Now he's starting the trash talking. We'll see where it all goes.


Beaching the car in kitty litter in the penultimate race and that ill-advised overtaking attempt on Alonso in the final race last year are two prime examples of this


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

1985mb said:


> Beaching the car in kitty litter in the penultimate race and that ill-advised overtaking attempt on Alonso in the final race last year are two prime examples of this


+1


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## DougG (Mar 21, 2004)

ktonomura said:


> that hamilton comment is kind of annoying, similar to the williams sisters in tennis never admitting a loss is their fault. How hard is it to say "i screwed up, they brought their A game today and I didnt" ? Argh.


I was also disappointed in Hamilton's comments. At one point he said "I apologized to Kimi, if I spoiled his race". IF???

I recently heard someone say "If an apology has an "if" in it, it's not a real apology". Applying that to a lot of apologies I've heard from various sports figures, politicians, etc., I 'd say that's right on the mark.

"I apologize IF I screwed up" is not the same as "I apologize THAT I screwed up"!


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Did you see the expression on Hamiltons face in the garage? He knew he blew it big time.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

I've been looking all over to figure out on what network the Frog GP is being broadcast in the US, and I can't find it listed anywhere. Qualifying is on Speed, but the race is notably absent. *Need help, please.*

Signed:
Desperate.


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

berford said:


> I've been looking all over to figure out on what network the Frog GP is being broadcast in the US, and I can't find it listed anywhere. Qualifying is on Speed, but the race is notably absent. *Need help, please.*
> 
> Signed:
> Desperate.


It's on Fox, probably tape delayed at 1pm. They mentioned it last weekend during the Canadian GP.

-MrB


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Google "TV RACE SCHEDULE"

That usually brings up all races everywhere


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

mrbelk said:


> It's on Fox, probably tape delayed at 1pm. They mentioned it last weekend during the Canadian GP.
> 
> -MrB


Thanks, B. I'll look around for the time. I guess this means it won't be my wake-up viewing Sunday. European GPs generally finish just as I'm out the door to church.


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

berford said:


> Thanks, B. I'll look around for the time. I guess this means it won't be my wake-up viewing Sunday. European GPs generally finish just as I'm out the door to church.


No sweat.

-MrB


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Qualifying will be on Speed but the race is on Fox same day, delayed.

There are several Fox stations here and I can not find which one so that I can set a tape to record it. Can anyone help?

I'm on Time Warner cable TV in the Dallas, TX area.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Qualifying will be on Speed but the race is on Fox same day, delayed.
> 
> There are several Fox stations here and I can not find which one so that I can set a tape to record it. Can anyone help?
> 
> I'm on Time Warner cable TV in the Dallas, TX area.


Try 787 at noon.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Thank you.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Wonderful picture accompanying a report (_Drivers unhappy with super license price hike_) on yesterday's press conference. Note the order of participants. Love seeing RK in front and red shirts in the back. Hope it stays that way. Link: http://www.formula1.com/

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> Try 787 at noon.


I tried 787 last night and again this am, blank both times.

It is on the Time Warner lineup as Fox Sports so I don't understand. Maybe it's for events only? :dunno:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> I tried 787 last night and again this am, blank both times.
> 
> It is on the Time Warner lineup as Fox Sports so I don't understand. Maybe it's for events only? :dunno:


If it doesn't pan out, you can come watch my recording next time you're in Chicago.

BTW, pics from France appear to show a larger ibex horn than usual...or maybe it's my imagination after none in Canada.


What do you think?

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

F1Crazy said:


> He did cut the corner but was really forced to do it after the pass and didn't gain the advantage IMO.


If forced and no gain seems they should not have penalised him.

But if it was a stupid attempt and he had to cross due to that stupid attempt then maybe yes.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

franka said:


> If forced and no gain seems they should not have penalised him.
> 
> But if it was a stupid attempt and he had to cross due to that stupid attempt then maybe yes.


Well, this is the quote from LH and the video, you be the judge:

"I had quite a good start, but there were about four people abreast in front of me so I took it easy. I was able to overtake a few people in turn five and I thought I overtook reasonably fairly into turn seven. Going in I was ahead but I lost the back end and to correct it I corrected it and I went over the kerb which I don't particularly see as cheating, but rules are rules."


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I don't see a fine in that. And I don't see the car he was alledged to pass either.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> I don't see a fine in that. And I don't see the car he was alledged to pass either.


I think it was an iffy call, but had some justification. I believe they adjudged that he was so intent on passing that he was going too fast to have any hope of properly negotiating the chicane. Even in slow motion, you can see that he's moving much, much faster than those in front of him, which validates the steward's point if you want to split hairs. Ham gets no "Schumi breaks" this year, it appears.

Of course if the car were red...


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Its a bad call.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Go Kimi, Kick McLaren's Arse to the Sideline*

Raikkonen expects Ferrari to dominate

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, June 24th 2008, 14:24 GMT

Kimi Raikkonen is predicting more Ferrari domination at the British Grand Prix, following their 1-2 finish in France last weekend.

The Finn triumped in last year's race at Silverstone and, although seeing a win slip through his fingers at Magny-Cours on Sunday thanks to a broken exhaust, he is simply happy that his car's performance looks so promising for next weekend's event.

"We expect to be really competitive at Silverstone," he wrote on the Ferrari website. "This week all the teams will test there ahead of the British GP: I'll drive on Thursday after Felipe has tested two days. I like the track and I have fond memories of it: it's good to come here with a car that can fight for the win."

Although Raikkonen was disappointed to not claim victory in France, he says now that he is happy because the points he scored were vital for his championship ambitions.

"I have to admit it has never been better to see the chequered flag," said Raikkonen. "Once again we proved you should never give up.

"The team still don't know exactly what happened. They will do some tests, but it's difficult to find an answer without the exhaust pipe and with an engine that has been under stress like that for half of the race.

"Obviously I'm sorry that I didn't win a race where everything went well in the beginning. We have to look at the positive aspects: the team did great work and I gained eight points, although I had a problem, which could have made me retire. And now I'm closer to the top than I was after Canada.

"It's a hard championship with four drivers close together. We're not even half way through the season and there are still loads of points to gain. Last year at this point I was 20 points behind."


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Ecclestone had warned Mosley about plot 

By Steven English Friday, June 27th 2008, 09:27 GMT 


Max Mosley was warned by Bernie Ecclestone that people had been hired to discredit him two months before his private life was exposed, it was claimed today.

A report in The Times newspaper dismisses recent suggestions that Ecclestone could have been part of a conspiracy to bring down the FIA president by suggesting he had warned Mosley that he was being targeted.

Dean Attew, an intelligence consultant who formerly worked for Ecclestone and also advised Mosley, revealed that he was contacted early this year by people who wanted Mosley removed from office.

"I received a call from a friend in January this year," Attew told The Times. "We had a meeting and I was told there was an open budget to effectively go out and source material that would bring Max to his knees, remove him from office, and discredit him publicly.

"The person contacted me because they knew of my relationship with Bernie, but they didn't know of my relationship with Max. The reason they contacted me was to find out whether I had any loyalty to Max, and whether I knew anything of value.

"I asked 'are you after Max, the FIA, or Bernie?' They came back a little while later and said they weren't going to pursue it for the time being."

Attew informed Ecclestone of the conversation, who then warned Mosley of the plot.

"I sat down with Bernie and told him what I'd heard," said Attew. "Bernie then told Max, I know this because Max later confirmed it to me. I assumed the warning would be taken seriously.

"It was clear that Max disregarded the advice and failed to realise his vulnerability. The issue for me was his total disregard for genuine advice from individuals that he knew had his best interests at heart

"I asked Bernie if there was anything anyone was going to find out about Max and he said 'you're not going to find anything because there's nothing there, he's Mr Boring in that sense'. Mosley had kept this a good secret."

Attew believes Mosley should have revealed that Ecclestone tried to warn him to defuse speculation that he was linked to the expose.

"I hear people suggesting Bernie was behind this, but that's ridiculous," he added. "From the very first indication, Bernie and I, with Max's knowledge, have tried to find out who was the source. When we saw what was in the News of the World, Bernie was as flabbergasted as I was."


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Trouble*

You know you are in trouble when your team leader has to defend you before anyone is complaining or taking shots at your guy.

Dennis stands by Hamilton

By Steven English Wednesday, July 2nd 2008, 13:06 GMT

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has defended Lewis Hamilton's poor results in the last two races and maintains that he is doing a good job this season.

Hamilton has failed to score in the last two grands prix and has dropped from first to fourth in the championship, but Dennis says it's all part of his learning curve and that Hamilton is constantly improving his game.

"Most people don't really appreciate how difficult the drivers' workload is," Dennis told BBC Newsbeat. "It's one of those things, you've got to put it behind you and focus on the next race.

"It doesn't matter what age you are, you're always going to learn. Lewis is no exception, he puts a lot of effort into understanding the car better, working closer with the team, and maintaining the same balanced approach to his racing and his life as a whole.

"Inevitably, the learning curve for him is steeper now than it will be in two or three years time, but he's really risen to the challenge and he's a very completed individual and a very complete racing driver. It's a pleasure to work with him."


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## gokartmozart (Oct 6, 2006)

franka said:


> You know you are in trouble when your team leader has to defend you before anyone is complaining or taking shots at your guy.
> 
> Dennis stands by Hamilton
> 
> <snip>


I know McLaren are in deep doo-doo right now, but to be charitable, Dennis was probably asked by a BBC reporter about the less-than-stellar 2008 performance...


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

gokartmozart said:


> I know McLaren are in deep doo-doo right now, but to be charitable, Dennis was probably asked by a BBC reporter about the less-than-stellar 2008 performance...


When it comes to Dennis, you'll find that Frank is always something less than charitable.

Nice ride, BTW.:thumbup:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> When it comes to Dennis, you'll find that Frank is always something less than charitable.QUOTE]
> 
> I was a big McLaren fan for years until I got fed-up with hearing "next year" over and over and seeing Kimi loose races and championships year after year due to reliablity.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Some sort of interesting notes going into this weekend's race (in case you missed them):

- Coulthard announced that he is retiring after this season

- Webber signed a contract extension with RBR

- Räikkönen will have a new engine for tomorrow's qualifying and Sunday's race, but will not be penalized under this season's rules that allow for one engine change without any grid penalty

- Although the weather for today's two free practice sessions has been excellent, a huge storm front from the Atlantic is heading from Ireland, south towards Wales and southern England. By Sunday, it should be a complete mess at Silverstone (about 200km north of London)

- Räikkönen was fined 2600 Euros ($4150 USD) for pit lane speeding (12.1km/h over the 60km/h speed limit) in today's first free practice session

- Alonso announced that he will announce his plans for 2009 by the end of the summer, not the end of the season as he earlier said

- The Australian Grand Prix will be held at Melbourne Park until 2015, with the race start pushed forward to at least 17.00 local time (06.00 GMT)

- The British Grand Prix will be held at Donnington Park beginning in 2010, for at least 5 years. The track and track facilities will undergo a 130 million Euro ($208 million USD) remodel over the next year and a half

- The FIA wants to increase the cost of drivers' Super Licenses from the current system (based on points earned the previous season) to one based on the driver's salary. They are suggesting the license fee should be 15% of the driver's salary. In the case of Räikkönen (his Super License for 2008 was 230,000 Euros or $368,000 USD), who gets an annual salary of 30 million Euros ($48 million USD), his 2009 Super License fee would be 4.5 million Euros ($7.2 million USD)

- The FIA also wants to increase Super License fees for driver's that live in low tax countries like Switzerland and Monaco, i.e., allow the FIA tax them instead

- The FIA wants to reduce fuel consumption in Formula 1 cars by 50% in the year 2015, before possibly shifting to diesel powered cars

The FIA wants team budgets reduced by 50% by the 2011 season

- Lewis Hamilton's father Anthony, has refused to allow his son to compete in a charity triathlon event at the end of July, after Lewis accepted a challenge to do this from Jenson Button

- Due to Cryptosporidium bacteria found in the water around the Silverstone track, all teams and fans will be drinking bottled water all weekend


There you have it. Have a pleasant 4th of July and Formula 1 weekend! :bigpimp:


.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

Patrick said:


> Some sort of interesting notes going into this weekend's race (in case you missed them):
> 
> - Coulthard announced that he is retiring after this season
> 
> ...


Two comments:
-Raikonnen makes $48M a year???? Wow :yikes:
-FIA = wtf?

What happened to Kubica's car this morning?


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## E36FewInNumber (May 19, 2007)

Quick question, for the USA the race is on Fox sports this week right? i hope so because i don't get speed channel right now.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I am watching the GP2 Sprint race (start in 3min) and guess what?

*RAIN!*

Two cars crashed just driving from the pits, to the grid...

This will make the Porsche Super Cup race interesting, not to mention how weather will play games with the Formula 1 race later today. :bigpimp:

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

E36FewInNumber said:


> Quick question, for the USA the race is on Fox sports this week right? i hope so because i don't get speed channel right now.


Delayed broadcast on Fox. I have no clue what time it starts for you though.

Why would anyone want to watch a race that is "tape delayed"? It's live, or not at all!

.


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## E36FewInNumber (May 19, 2007)

how upsetting, i just got up early to watch the race and all that's on is cartoons.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Per earlier commects, I'd say Dennis had good reason to stick by his Brit. Cograts to Lewis and Nick, both of whom had great races, despite (IMO) making the wrong tire choices on the last stop. Real close at the top of the driver's championship--three way tie, with RK and Nick easily within striking distance.


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## sbdon (Jan 22, 2008)

Any word on why Kubica didn't come out of the pits in order to qualify during Q3? Also, the trap times during Q1 showed the BMWs down about 2.6 KPH and down in 7th & 8th fastest. I was hoping they could close this but, apparently, there is no solution to this continuing problem.


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## GimpyMcFarlan (Aug 13, 2002)

sbdon said:


> Any word on why Kubica didn't come out of the pits in order to qualify during Q3?


Broken left rear damper. The stewards let BMW change all 4 overnight, although I cannot say why this didn't trigger a penalty of some kind. :dunno: To bad Kubica could not stay out of the litter, I was really hoping team BMW could bring both cars home.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*I agree wholeheartedly*

Briatore says F1 needs an overhaul

By Michele Lostia and Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, July 29th 2008, 11:16 GMT

Renault team boss Flavio Briatore believes Formula One needs an overhaul in order to satisfy the fans and get the teams to have a bigger say.

The Italian also feels the sport is hurting due to Max Mosley focusing on his personal problems.

"His absence is felt as there's no project for F1. The teams feel abandoned," Briatore told Gazzetta dello Sport newspaper.

Speaking about the issues Formula One is facing, Briatore said: "The Concorde agreement, the number of races, the costs, the spectacle, the imperative increase of revenues. Formula One needs to be re-designed.

"I feel that it should be down to the teams to decide, by electing in turns a director of operations. A guy who does things, not a PR person.

"On top of that, we need to decide with a 51% majority, not unanimously like now, otherwise we'll carry on being stuck."

He added: "Nowadays Ecclestone takes 50% of all revenues, but we are supposed to be able to reduce our costs by 50%.

"How? Starting from the engines. Making them more environment-friendly, accepting Mosley's challenge of reducing fuel consumption by 50% by 2015, while cutting the high costs of the engine themselves and also cutting the staff.

"The problem is that us, Renault, have stuck to the letter of the current regulations on frozen engines, and we've been buggered: others didn't do that and are far ahead, while we suffer. It's not fair."

Briatore and the rest of team principals and other officials will meet today in Maranello to discuss the future of the sport.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Predictions for Hungary: Hami, Kubi, Kimi, Nicki


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Cute


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I won't make any more lame ass predictions... :rofl: :bigpimp:

BTW, the FIA is doing a re-inspection of Hamilton's race engine from Hockenheim. 


.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> I won't make any more lame ass predictions... :rofl: :bigpimp:
> 
> BTW, the FIA is doing a re-inspection of Hamilton's race engine from Hockenheim.
> 
> .


Like to stick my neck out...

What's the point/objective of the inspection?

Watch for a 10 place penalty for Hami in Hungary. That would throw my prediction is out the window.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Like to stick my neck out...
> 
> What's the point/objective of the inspection?
> 
> Watch for a 10 place penalty for Hami in Hungary. That would throw my prediction is out the window.


Yeah, I am not exactly sure what the deal is. I caught the end of the story the other day on the sports news. There was a mention of how engine development is frozen until 2078 by the FIA and so on and so forth. :blah:

Anyway, I am leaving to the cottage tomorrow morning (no Internet or TV out there)  but lets see what happens.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Nothing in Autosport about it.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Nothing in Autosport about it.


I will check from the Finnish news site that ran the story.

.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Story posted on 26.07.2008

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2008/07/679365

*Kansainvälinen autoliitto FIA tarkastaa Saksan F1-osakilpailussa voittoon ajaneen McLaren-kuski Lewis Hamiltonin auton moottorin.*

Moottorien kehitystyö on F1-sarjan nykyisten sääntöjen mukaan jäädytetty. FIA haluaa pistokokein valvoa säännön toteutumista. Tarkastus on ensimmäinen laatuaan tällä kaudella.

Espanjalaisen Diario AS -sanomalehden mukaan Mercedes-Benzin valmistama voimanlähde otetaan FIA:n syyniin vielä ennen ensi viikonloppuna ajettavaa Unkarin osakilpailua. Lehden mukaan FIA informoi McLarenia virallisesti tulevasta tarkastuksesta tiistaina.

------------

The FIA will inspect German Grand Prix race winner Lewis Hamilton's engine (the engine from the race).

According to the current FIA rules in Formula 1, engine development has been frozen. The inspection of (Hamilton's engine) is the first of its kind.

The Spanish newspaper Diario AS has reported that the Mercedes-Benz engine to used again for the Hungarian Grand Prix will be re-inspected. According to the newspaper, the FIA will officially announce the inspection to McLaren on Tuesday.

There you have it. So the inspection is coming, most likely on Thursday.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Shark Fin*

So even Ferrari is now using the shark fin engine cover.

This seems like such an elementary thing to do. If I had to design an FI car I surely would have drawn in a shark fin cover in my 1st draft. Why has it taking the teams 20 years to discover this aero aid? :dunno:

It cleans up the air flowing to the rear wing resulting in more downforce with little to nothing added to drag.

It also helps to keep the car straight like a rudder on a plane or a boat or Batman's older car.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Another strange issue: Coulthard is using the same engine for the *THIRD* race in a row.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Another strange issue: Coulthard is using the same engine for the *THIRD* race in a row. .


It is a strategy to have new engines for the most difficult races.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> It is a strategy to have new engines for the most difficult races.


Yes, Spa and Monza. And considering how few kilometers Coulthard's engine has been through on Saturday and Sunday for the last two race weekends, it is probably a wise idea.

I suspect that the folks and Renault are happy as well.

.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

F1 is back on Speed  :banana:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Thank God. Now I can see some good racing, Kimi passing and pushing Lewis off track all legal of course, no penalties


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Hamilton: McLaren stronger than in Germany 

By Jonathan Noble Friday, August 1st 2008, 16:45 GMT 


Lewis Hamilton believes McLaren have made a further step forward with their car since the German Grand Prix, as he seeks his third straight win this weekend.

The world championship leader got his Hungarian GP off to a perfect start with the fastest time in Friday practice and, with his car featuring new nose horn wings, he is bullish about the progress his team are making.

"Today was a smooth day, quite relaxed," said Hamilton. "Heikki and I both had a very productive day, with no problems with the car.

"I feel even from the last race we've made another step. At the moment I feel very comfortable in the car. But also I feel there's still time for me to find, and I'm going to do that.

"We've the pace to attack and go for the win. It's down to us to pull it out of the bag."

Although McLaren's form compared to Ferrari on the hot Hungaroring circuit has lifted Hamilton's confidence, he was not letting his expectations get too carried away though.

When asked if his performance meant he was favourite for pole position, he responded: "I never see myself as favourite."

The hot weather greeting teams this weekend is good news for McLaren's rivals Ferrari, who are better able to manage their tyres when temperatures are higher.

Ferrari's technical director Aldo Costa said on Friday that the team's struggles in Hockenheim owed much to them not being able to use the tyres well there, because of the cooler than expected weather.

"I think the last race for us was very difficult for finding the good grip from the tyres but we were not the only team," he explained. "Most of the drivers were having, during the race mainly, a lot of problems to find grip.

"The tyres were very, very hard probably - too hard for that kind of circuit especially the hard tyre. There was no wear at all, the tyre just was not working for that kind of circuit. This was valid for us and it was valid as well for most of the teams."


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Bad bad News*

Raikkonen fears McLaren still quicker

By Pablo Elizalde Friday, August 1st 2008, 16:04 GMT

World champion Kimi Raikkonen feels rivals McLaren are still ahead of Ferrari in terms of pace following practice in Hungary.

Although Ferrari dominated the opening session this morning, McLaren's Lewis Hamilton set the fastest time of the day in the afternoon, when Raikkonen was down in fifth place, ahead of teammate Felipe Massa.

And although Raikkonen believes there is room to improve, he thinks McLaren, winners of the last two races, are still ahead.

"We worked on various set-up options for the car," said the Finn. "I also tried the new engine cover, but it is hard to assess it in any detail.

"The situation is not too bad, the car handles better, but our main rivals seem to be still a little bit quicker than us, even if there is the usual question mark over any difference in the fuel loads.

"There is still room for improvement and we will concentrate all our efforts on this in preparing for qualifying and the race."

Massa echoed his teammate's thoughts, saying he is expecting a tough time to try to beat their rivals.

"It's hard to say exactly where we are compared to the opposition, but clearly they are very quick," said Massa. "I did not feel too comfortable on the softest tyre while on the harder one, which I used first, the situation was much better.

"As usual on the first day at the Hungaroring, it is difficult to understand how the tyres are behaving because you always get a lot of graining, while the situation changes bit by bit as more rubber goes down on the track surface.

"We know in which direction we have to work and we will do all we can to bring home a good result. It will be tough, but I am confident all the same."


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

What were the Bimmer team thinking sending both cars out for the first runs. when there was only about 7 minutes left in Q1? So Nick gets into traffic on his second hot lap and poof, there goes Nick. Anyway, Kubi did well...good to be in the second row. And I imagine Nick will come back through the field pretty well. But it was still a stupid move, IMO. And these are not stupid people.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

At the moment, I am not a happy camper.

Räikkönen fails in qualifying (and will fail tomorrow in the race), and a freaking Frenchman is about to win the FIA Neste Oil Rally in Finland. Foreigners are not allowed to win this rally. Period.

This is a crap weekend of motorsports. 


.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> At the moment, I am not a happy camper.
> 
> Räikkönen fails in qualifying (and will fail tomorrow in the race), and a freaking Frenchman is about to win the FIA Neste Oil Rally in Finland. Foreigners are not allowed to win this rally. Period.
> 
> ...


There, there, Patrick, life will get better.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

It seems inappropriate to me that a Bridgestone representative should make public comments on a specific driver's characteristics or capabilities.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Was just about to post that.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Was just about to post that.


What? What Frank posted or what I replied?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

It doesn't bother me.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Nothing new added in a week? The 3 week F1 break has some affect but still?

Maybe F1 is losing its sparkle. It shure has been *****d up in the last few years, make it 10 years, make it back before wonder boy won his 1st race


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

berford said:


> What? What Frank posted or what I replied?


What you replied


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Nothing new added in a week? The 3 week F1 break has some affect but still?


I have been ignoring motorsports lately. I am still having problems coming to terms with Sebastian Loeb winning the Neste Oil Rally. 

Hopefully, I will be healthy by the time the Formula 1 race in Valencia takes place. 

.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> What you replied


I see...thanks for clarifying. Like minds, as they say.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Nothing new added in a week? The 3 week F1 break has some affect but still?
> 
> Maybe F1 is losing its sparkle. It shure has been *****d up in the last few years, make it 10 years, make it back before wonder boy won his 1st race


It really has been very quiet around the F1 world. About as little news as there ever has been in a 3 week hiatus. I've been watching the news daily for technical advances, etc...but there's nothing much out there. Perhaps everyone used the rest time to rest.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Here is a bit of news to get things started in the lead up to this weekend's race.

Where is Valencia and has anyone been there that can comment on the condition of the streets there?


Teams plan for crucial SC periods 

By Steven English and Jonathan Noble Monday, August 18th 2008, 07:58 GMT 


Key figures in Formula One expect safety car periods to play a crucial role in the outcome of this weekend's European Grand Prix on the new Valencia street circuit.

The high-speed road layout has been likened to Montreal and some teams and drivers predict that the race around Valencia's port could be decided by a safety car period.

The current regulations, which punish drivers who are forced to pit while the safety car is on track, have affected several races, including this year's Canadian Grand Prix where Lewis Hamilton ran into the back of Kimi Raikkonen in the pit lane during a safety car period.

The close proximity of the walls lining the Valencia track increase the chances of accidents and, with it not yet known how long it will take to clear away damaged cars, teams will attempt to work long safety car periods into their race strategies.

Force India's technical director Mike Gascoyne says he will be looking to take advantage of any such situation.

"Certainly, for a team like us, we would be looking at that," he told autosport.com. "You've got the walls and the difficult of getting cars away, so there's going to be a lot of safety cars.

"We may look at strategies that will put us out of sync with the others so we can take advantage of it.

"With strategy, you've got to see what the circuit is like and how the tyres perform, because that might dictate far more what we do. But it's something we will factor into our race strategy."

But for the teams fighting for places at the front of the grid, safety car interruptions are just as likely to ruin races as they are to improve them.

Mark Webber, who is fighting for fourth place in the constructors' championship for Red Bull, is concerned about the effect the safety car could have on his race with the current regulations.

"Unfortunately these days, with the safety car rule that street races can sometimes be affected by, performance isn't shown," he told autosport.com. "But if you're having a **** weekend it could help you.

"That's the biggest concern going into these sort of races, that if you're having a good weekend the safety car can completely screw you.

"Street races were always more vulnerable to safety cars, but with the rule we have now, all your efforts can be washed down the toilet."


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Very interesting! Can't wait though!


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Ummmmmmmmm, here's some "news." http://f1store.formula1.com/stores/...x?free_text=summer break sale&portal=SB5TM5AG

Good deals if you didn't have to pay postage from GB.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

berford said:


> It really has been very quiet around the F1 world. About as little news as there ever has been in a 3 week hiatus. I've been watching the news daily for technical advances, etc...but there's nothing much out there. Perhaps everyone used the rest time to rest.


Blame the Olympics


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Valencia Spain is on the Mediteranian coast. An ancient trading port.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Predictions for Valencia:
Hami
Kubi
Kimi
Ferni
Nicki


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

No Massa ?


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

berford said:


> Predictions for Valencia:
> Hami
> Kubi
> Kimi
> ...


I think it is quiet because no one wants to say what they are doing and give people 'updates'. I think Ferrari will come on strong. Maybe a 1-2.

I don't see BMW doing too well unfortunately.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I think it is quiet because no one wants to say what they are doing and give people 'updates'. I think Ferrari will come on strong. Maybe a 1-2.
> I don't see BMW doing too well unfortunately.


Are you reading a magic crystal ball? :yikes:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> No Massa ?


Engine blows on penultimate lap. teehee :eeps: :bawling: :angel:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

BMW Sauber web site has a pretty good overview of the Valencia circuit here: http://www.bmw-sauber-f1.com/en/?ju...rope/&lity=gp_eu#/season-2008/gp-europe/~1|0/
...in case anyone's interested in a preview. Lots of fast, sweeping curves and little in the way of run-offs, it seems. I can see a few wall encounters. Perhaps that's what happens to Massa.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

franka said:


> Are you reading a magic crystal ball? :yikes:


You made your picks and I made my 'guesses'. I think we both know we have no real idea of what might happen. First time for for everyone here which is fun.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> BMW Sauber web site has a pretty good overview of the Valencia circuit here: http://www.bmw-sauber-f1.com/en/?ju...rope/&lity=gp_eu#/season-2008/gp-europe/~1|0/
> ...in case anyone's interested in a preview. Lots of fast, sweeping curves and little in the way of run-offs, it seems. I can see a few wall encounters. Perhaps that's what happens to Massa.


That is a good overview. The GP2 cars have already run there so its not new, its just new to F1.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

berford said:


> BMW Sauber web site has a pretty good overview of the Valencia circuit here: http://www.bmw-sauber-f1.com/en/?ju...rope/&lity=gp_eu#/season-2008/gp-europe/~1|0/
> ...in case anyone's interested in a preview. Lots of fast, sweeping curves and little in the way of run-offs, it seems. I can see a few wall encounters. Perhaps that's what happens to Massa.


So when was the last time an F1 calendar had 3 street circuit races in one year?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

1985mb said:


> So when was the last time an F1 calendar had 3 street circuit races in one year?


None maybe. They did run Dallas once and Longbeach several times.

Last street race I think was in Phoenix AZ. I was there.


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

franka said:


> Last street race I think was in Phoenix AZ. I was there.


Psssst...Monnaco is a street race.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

1985mb said:


> So when was the last time an F1 calendar had 3 street circuit races in one year?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_circuits

Monaco Grand Prix, 1950, 1955-2009
Spanish Grand Prix (Barcelona), 1951, 1954
German Grand Prix (Berlin), 1959
Spanish Grand Prix (Barcelona), 1969, 1971, 1973, 1975
Las Vegas Grand Prix (Caesar's Palace), 1981-1982
United States Grand Prix East (Detroit), 1982-1988
United States Grand Prix West (Long Beach), 1976-1983
United States Grand Prix (Dallas, Fair Park), 1984
United States Grand Prix (Phoenix), 1989-1991
Australian Grand Prix (Adelaide), 1985-1995
Australian Grand Prix (Melbourne), 1996-2015

Now I guess that we can add the European Grand Prix (Valencia) and the Singapore Grand Prix.

If you really count Albert Park as a "street track" (it is based on a street track), then this season, there are four street races.

Also, in 1982, there was Monaco, US GP East, US GP West, and the Las Vegas GP all in the same season.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

cenotaph said:


> Psssst...Monnaco is a street race.


DAH...That never crossed my mind. :tsk:

Yes it is a street affair but not in the sense of Detroit or Long Beach, etc.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

cenotaph said:


> Psssst...Monnaco is a street race.


Cool quote from Nelson Piquet Sr:

_"Racing in Monaco is like trying to ride a bicycle around your living room."_

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Cool quote from Nelson Piquet Sr:
> 
> _"Racing in Monaco is like trying to ride a bicycle around your living room."_ .


In the winter in Detroit I used to ride my bike in our basement which was a whole 900 sq ft. A figure eight was about all that could be done.


----------



## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Patrick said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_circuits
> 
> Monaco Grand Prix, 1950, 1955-2009
> Spanish Grand Prix (Barcelona), 1951, 1954
> ...


So I guess 1991 was the last year to have 3 in one calendar? Monaco, Phoenix, Adelaide


----------



## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Patrick said:


> Cool quote from Nelson Piquet Sr:
> 
> _"Racing in Monaco is like trying to ride a bicycle around your living room."_
> 
> .


I used to do that 

But yes, that's yet another reason why Monaco is probably the most over-rated GP (IMHO). Unless there is rain, it is often the most procession-like of all F1 races


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

1985mb said:


> But yes, that's yet another reason why Monaco is probably the most over-rated GP (IMHO). Unless there is rain, it is often the most procession-like of all F1 races


Really? I like Monaco every year. I would like all races to be dry. Wet is just a crap shoot with 1000s of millions of $$$ in machinery and drivers.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

1985mb said:


> So I guess 1991 was the last year to have 3 in one calendar? Monaco, Phoenix, Adelaide


Yep.

Any guess (without Google or Frank A) as to who won the race in Phoenix? :dunno:

I don't even remember. I do remember the course, but nothing else.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*This sets Williams Back Quite a Bit*

BMW release KERS investigation findings

By Simon Strang Thursday, August 21st 2008, 12:41 GMT

BMW-Sauber insist the mechanic hospitalised after suffering an electric shock when he touched a car fitted with the team's new Kinetic Energy Recovery System last month was never in any serious danger.

Following what BMW described as an "extremely far-reaching analysis" into the incident, which occured when the mechanic collapsed to the ground at Jerez as he attempted to wheel a car fitted with the device back into its pitbay.

"The mechanic suffered an electric shock after touching the sidepod and steering wheel of the car," said BMW's head of powertrain development Markus Duesmann.

"There was a high frequency AC voltage between these contact points, the cause of which has been traced back to the KERS control unit and a sporadic capacitive coupling from the high-voltage network to the 12-volt network," he added. "The voltage ran through the wiring of the 12-volt network to the steering wheel and through the carbon chassis back to the control unit.

"Only a small amount of energy can be transferred through this capacitive coupling effect. However, the energy is sufficient to cause an extremely painful reaction.

"The driver was insulated against the car by his racing overalls and gloves and therefore not in any danger."

BMW Sauber will make the findings of their investigation available to the teams at next week's Technical Working Group meeting and have already supplied a copy of them to the FIA.

"In addition to the measures required to tackle the issue at hand, the extremely far-reaching analysis we conducted also gave rise to other recommendations which are of great value for the development of electric KERS systems," said Duesmann. "Among the measures arrived at are changes in the design of the control unit to avoid capacitive coupling effects, extended monitoring functions for high frequencies and a conductive connection of the chassis components to avoid any electric potential."

Duesmann explained that the results of the investigation took so long time to conclude its findings because of the complicated nature of the new system, which is set to be introduced to Formula One as part of the 2009 technical regulations.

"It was not possible initially to reproduce the capacitive coupling effect in the car, as the problem was caused by a sporadic error in the control unit," he explained. "Due to the extremely high frequency of the voltage in the steering wheel, the safety mechanisms and data recordings did not pick up on the error.

"In the absence of data, all the theoretical possibilities had to be systematically investigated and analysed in tests.

"Furthermore, the capacitive coupling effect only occurs under certain conditions. Without the option of driving the KERS test car used in Jerez again, we had to reconstruct these conditions."

BMW has made it clear they will not test the system again until a safe solution to the problem is in place.

"We will resume the testing programme once all the necessary amendments to the safety concept have been implemented," said Duesmann. "We expect this to be the case in the autumn."


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I really hope that the FIA drops this idea.


.


----------



## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

Patrick said:


> I really hope that the FIA drops this idea.
> .


I'm not against it in principle since it can really, directly, impact series car production in a very positive way. If they were to pull the rule on this, it would go completely against the FIA's goal of reducing costs, insofar as all of the teams have probably already spent tens of millions of dollars researching and developing their systems. All of the annual rules changes just make the sport more and more expensive, since the teams can't "evolve" a design, they have to completely redesign things, from scratch.

-MrB


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

franka said:


> DAH...That never crossed my mind. :tsk:
> 
> Yes it is a street affair but not in the sense of Detroit or Long Beach, etc.


True, it isn't your typical street race.

Isn't Spa partly public roads too?


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

cenotaph said:


> True, it isn't your typical street race.
> 
> Isn't Spa partly public roads too?


Yes there are several tracks that use public streets. Montreal may use some of the streets on the island, I'm not sure. Lemans but its not an F1 circuit.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Somebody needs to tell Nick before tomorrow that being at the back of the grid is not a good thing.
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/798/6547/

:yikes:


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

cenotaph said:


> Isn't Spa partly public roads too?


Part of it, yes. And the corner that used to be called "Bus Stop" actually was a bus stop when the race track is not in use.

The track in Montreal for the Canadian Grand Prix is not on public roads, but when the track is not in use for the Formula 1 race, or the NASCRAP Busch series NAPA Auto Parts 200, the circuit is open to the public, i.e., for bicycle riding, skating and so on.

WRT this new track in Valencia, I have to say that I am impressed! It reminds me of both Montreal and Long Beach. It does NOT remind me of anything related to Monaco.

That said, the track sure was dirty today, even after two, 1.5 hour free practice sessions for F1, and then when I watched the GP2 practice and qualifying.

Alonso thinks that qualifying will be everything because "passing in Formula 1 is impossible unless someone makes a mistake in front of you", and that especially on this street track, a clean line will appear, and anyone venturing off that line will be in trouble.

Tomorrow (qualifying) will be interesting. Sadly, it takes place at exactly the same time as the Men's Javelin Final in Beijing... 

.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Part of it, yes. And the corner that used to be called "Bus Stop" actually was a bus stop when the race track is not in use.
> 
> The track in Montreal for the Canadian Grand Prix is not on public roads, but when the track is not in use for the Formula 1 race, or the NASCRAP Busch series NAPA Auto Parts 200, the circuit is open to the public, i.e., for bicycle riding, skating and so on.
> 
> ...


Prefer Women's Javalin:


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Quite a boring race today. Barely any passing, and other than the issues Kimi had, along with the Alonso/Kaz "crash", nothing interesting happened.

Congrats to Kubica for the podium finish. But... BMW was a step slower than McLaren and Ferrari yet again. I'm shocked no one overtook Kubica. Just not a fulfilling finish in my opinion.


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

berford said:


> Engine blows on penultimate lap. teehee :eeps: :bawling: :angel:


Oddly enough, your prediction was close to true. Just wrong lap and wrong driver with bearing the prancing pony logo.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Fine and a reprimand!!! What gutless a$$holes.


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

berford said:


> Fine and a reprimand!!! What gutless a$$holes.


If it had been the other way (Sutil being let go "unsafely"), Sutil would have been disqualified, I have no doubt. I also couldn't believe Massa's arrogance in blaming Sutil for the near-hit.

I was very disappointed in the race as a whole. The field spread out very quickly and very thinly. There was so much dust and whatnot off the racing line that even if the field had been closer together, there wouldn't have been any overtaking.

Heidfeld needs to go. The car is clearly competitive (Kubica was able to hold off both Heikki and Kimi for the entire race), but Heidfeld just isn't getting it done anymore.

-MrB


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

It has been some time since we have had such a yawner of a race.

I kept hoping for the Follow-Me-Car to come out, but no one crashed! After seeing the GP2 races, the Porsche SuperCup race, and the Spanish F3000 race (it was red flagged with 2 laps left), I was sure that the Formula 1 race would be interesting.

But no.

Massa is a clown. Not only could he have taken out Sutil, he would have also crashed into the SC and the medical car.

Due to Räikkönen's engine failure, Massa's engine will also be changed for Spa. They are in trouble.

Heidfeld blamed the tires in his first stint, but who knows what is up with that guy. It is time for BMW Sauber to throw a bank of money at Alonso and get him before Honda does.


.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I may switch alegiance to the ALMS series. Great cars and great racing. They have no problem pushing one or another aside to pass.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> It has been some time since we have had such a yawner of a race.
> 
> I kept hoping for the Follow-Me-Car to come out, but no one crashed! After seeing the GP2 races, the Porsche SuperCup race, and the Spanish F3000 race (it was red flagged with 2 laps left), I was sure that the Formula 1 race would be interesting.
> 
> ...


It certainly was a yawner.

Does Massa still have a "free" engine change?

Can't agree with Alonso for BMW. I don't think it's a good fit in terms of personality and I also think he's lost the "edge" he once had. Just a Ho-Hum driver now, IMO. The could do much better.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Massa is immature.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> It certainly was a yawner.
> 
> Does Massa still have a "free" engine change?
> 
> Can't agree with Alonso for BMW. I don't think it's a good fit in terms of personality and I also think he's lost the "edge" he once had. Just a Ho-Hum driver now, IMO. The could do much better.


Massa hasn't used his free change/no penalty card.

Räikkönen's engine failure was a duplicate of Massa's in Hungary. Luca Baldiseri said last week that a similar failure will not happen again. Oops.

Ok, if not Alonso to BMW, then who? Someone young, like Rosberg, or Sutil?

I think that Alsonso just has a crappy car now. However, the personality point is a good one. He didn't handle the English/German culture of McLaren, so perhaps he wouldn't handle the German/Swiss culture of BMW Sauber.

Driving for a French team, run by a whacky Italian is probably best for him! :rofl:

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Massa is immature.


Well, he is driving in circles around Räikkönen at the moment.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Well, he is driving in circles around Räikkönen at the moment.
> 
> .


Kimi is faster than Massa


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Kimi is faster than Massa


I completely agree with that. But Massa is getting something out of the car in both qualifying and the race that Räikkönen is not.

Unless this gets turned around, Räikkönen will be driving for Massa...

And then I will be cheering for Hamilton. Or Vettel. Or Coulthard. :rofl:

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Massa is good at qualifying which is helping him, yet Kimi is not that far behind.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Massa is good at qualifying which is helping him, yet Kimi is not that far behind.


Räikkönen is good at getting fastest laps. However, that is sort of pointless when you are stuck behind Trulli in P6.

After thinking about it, I would suggest that pole position in Valencia is MORE important than in Monaco. Valencia offers ZERO overtaking possibilities - aside from the start, and with pit strategy.

There were NO passes for position during this race. :yawn:

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Kimi didn't have trouble qualifying while at McLaren but the sytem was different.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Kimi came close to killing his pit crew team mate. It immediately reminded me of a street race where an official got killed by a rear tire slapping him down like a twig and running over him. It was F1 or CART a quite a few years ago. I saw it happen live on TV just like this incident. If Kimi didn't stop this guy would have been dead.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

franka said:


> I may switch alegiance to the ALMS series. Great cars and great racing. They have no problem pushing one or another aside to pass.


I was watching that too. Great racing on what seemed an unpassable course.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Lanc3r said:


> I was watching that too. Great racing on what seemed an unpassable course.


There was a lot of action, I was afraid to walk away for a minute. All 4 classes are great machines plus the LMP1s are everybit as techincal as the F1 cars. Maybe even more so as they can run close to each other unlike F1 cars.

The LMP cars and the former CART cars run tunnels which allow the cars to get close, not like F1 that banned tunnels.

ALMs are much better organized and run a great race wherever they go. Hey Bernie maybe you should visit a race or 2.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

franka said:


> There was a lot of action, I was afraid to walk away for a minute. All 4 classes are great machines plus the LMP1s are everybit as techincal as the F1 cars. Maybe even more so as they can run close to each other unlike F1 cars.
> 
> The LMP cars and the former CART cars run tunnels which allow the cars to get close, not like F1 that banned tunnels.
> 
> ALMs are much better organized and run a great race wherever they go. Hey Bernie maybe you should visit a race or 2.


It was awesome watching the LMP1s dice through slower traffic. Some of those guys were on.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

If it wasn't for reliablity problems at McLaren Kimi would have had 2 championships there, before going to Ferrari. In fact he probably would have stayed at McLaren to enjoy their current cars.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Bruce said:


> The spin is that in the week after Hungary the official Ferrari line was "It was a one off failure that couldn't possibly happen again." To now after Vallencia "We thought there might be a problem with Kimi's engine as well."


Well, since Budapest, that is not how it has been reported here. Immediately after that race, questions were raised about Räikkönen's engine. Räikkönen said in his post race interview (Finnish) that he was told to turn down the revs and save P3. The same TV comments were made during and after qualifying in Valencia.

I took the "one-off" comment by Baldessari to mean Massa's engine, which was obviously replaced for Valencia.

Spin it all you want.

.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> If it wasn't for reliablity problems at McLaren Kimi would have had 2 championships there, before going to Ferrari. In fact he probably would have stayed at McLaren to enjoy their current cars.


It could also be argued that without reliability problems at McLaren, Häkkinen would not have quit when he did. We will never know...

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> It could also be argued that without reliability problems at McLaren, Häkkinen would not have quit when he did. We will never know... .


True, look at all the champions and championships that were wasted by McLarens poor reliablity. Its been very costly to McLaren and their drivers.


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

bknauss said:


> Replacing Nick - I just have a feeling if they replace Nick, it would be with a young German. Rosberg... Vettel... someone. Just my personal feeling and not based on much evidence.


++
IMO, BMW wants at least one German driver on the team. I'm not sure if they'd pass on a better non-German driver though.

Speaking of German drivers...what's the consensus on how much Sutil has been held back by the cars he's been driving?


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Hamilton Wakes Up from a Deep Sleep*

Hamilton ready to go for 'useful' points

By Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, August 26th 2008, 16:38 GMT

Lewis Hamilton says he is ready to settle for points rather than go for victory when needed in order to secure a stronger position in the championship.

The Briton finished in second place at the European Grand Prix at Valencia, where the McLaren driver was unable to beat Ferrari rival Felipe Massa.

Hamilton had a quiet race and seemed to settle for second, an attitude that earned him the praise from his team bosses.

And although he admits he is aiming for victory in all races, Hamilton says he has learned that sometimes it is vital to just score points.

"Clearly, I want to win all the time, but I've learned that sometimes it's more advantageous to score as many points as possible and live to fight another day," Hamilton said on his website.

"My aim is still to win the world championship and you don't do that by ending up in the barriers after making an opportunistic move.

"In Valencia, we scored a very useful haul of points and I've actually come away from the weekend having extended my lead in the championship despite losing two points to Felipe.

"I'm mentally strong enough to be able to deal with that - and I'm more relaxed about it too. I'm playing a long game."

Hamilton lost last year's title by one single point to Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen.


----------



## MVF4Rider (Aug 16, 2008)

Patrick said:


> Because that is what Ferrari's head engineer Luca Baldisseri said when interviewed after the race.
> 
> Maybe you have better information? :dunno:
> 
> .


No, just didn't hear it. Of course I read it today. Just wanted to know if it was fact or opinion. No biggie.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

franka said:


> Kimi is faster than anyone out there but he does need to get past his qualifying problem, were Massa is good.
> 
> Remember Kimi coming thru the field from the back on sevearl occasions, back when he was with McLaren? No one could touch his speed then or now. Some are close like Massa and Lewis and maybe some others that show promise but have never been in a truly fast car.
> 
> Kimi's first year with Ferrari was learning the car, the tires the team etc and still Massa couldn't beat him. :thumbup:


I have a lot of respect for KR and wanted him to win the WDC as much as anyone else. Everything you said above, while it may be true, is unfortunately in the past and not corroborated by the recent evidence. Whether it's due to a lack of focus or lack of motivation or complacency or ennui, his recent performances have been a pale shadow of the past (and of his potential)................and because of those recent performances, his WDC chances are evaporating rapidly.

FM is currently the Scuderia's best hope for a WDC this year - if it weren't apparent after Hungary, it sure should be by now.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

1985mb said:


> I have a lot of respect for KR and wanted him to win the WDC as much as anyone else. Everything you said above, while it may be true, is unfortunately in the past and not corroborated by the recent evidence. Whether it's due to a lack of focus or lack of motivation or complacency or ennui, his recent performances have been a pale shadow of the past (and of his potential)................and because of those recent performances, his WDC chances are evaporating rapidly.
> 
> FM is currently the Scuderia's best hope for a WDC this year - if it weren't apparent after Hungary, it sure should be by now.


With 6 races left, there's plenty of time for shifts in the points standings. It's fairly unlikely that Kimi (-13) and Kubi (-15) can get there, but it's certainly possible.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

1985mb said:


> I have a lot of respect for KR and wanted him to win the WDC as much as anyone else. Everything you said above, while it may be true, is unfortunately in the past and not corroborated by the recent evidence. Whether it's due to a lack of focus or lack of motivation or complacency or ennui, his recent performances have been a pale shadow of the past (and of his potential)................and because of those recent performances, his WDC chances are evaporating rapidly.
> 
> FM is currently the Scuderia's best hope for a WDC this year - if it weren't apparent after Hungary, it sure should be by now.


I agree. Never mind what you did yesterday its what are you going to do for us today? I get it.

Have we forgoten last year? Most of the year the odds were clearly not on Kimi. So like it was said above there is still a fair amount of time to get it together if he starts now by grabbing some poles and podiums.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Oh Brother*

Put him on a 2nd class car and see what he does....

Dennis: Lewis is the best driver in F1

By Jon Noble Wednesday, August 27th 2008, 09:35 GMT

Lewis Hamilton has to be judged as the best driver in Formula One at the moment, because of the success he is enjoying with his relative lack of experience in the top flight.

That is the view of his team boss Ron Dennis, who claims that what Hamilton has managed to achieve in his short F1 career, allied to his approach to the job, makes him stand out against his rivals.

"It amuses me to see these evaluations of drivers because for me you have to take into consideration how long a driver has been in Formula One when you evaluate his performance," he said.

"For no other reason that puts him top of the heap, he is the best in Formula One at the moment. Take into account how little experience he has had, that's the bit that gives him the edge.

"It doesn't mean to say he is particularly quicker than the others, or he has dominated, it's just you have to take how long they have been involved in the sport as one of the values."

Dennis believes Hamilton is a much-improved driver from the one who let the title slip through his fingers at the end of 2007.

"Lewis is stronger now than a year ago, more experienced, more developed," explained Dennis. "With all drivers, only a fool doesn't realise, irrespective of age, you learn something every day.

"It is no different for a racing driver because they spend their whole life driving a racing car and they are going to learn more and more. With all drivers in Formula One, they are on a very steep learning curve, and the longer they are in it, the steeper it becomes.

"I wouldn't surprised if Lewis has won more races to grands prix at his age. I doubt there has ever been a driver who has won eight of his first 29 races. How can you criticise him? And what he is driving is immaterial."


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

1985mb said:


> FM is currently the Scuderia's best hope for a WDC this year - if it weren't apparent after Hungary, it sure should be by now.


After last season, I am not going to write Räikkönen off (like the I-talian media already has).

And to those that keep saying that he has lost his motivation, lost the drive, lost the will to win, I will say this: *just STFU*.

That is utter nonsense. Räikkönen will not give up.

.


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## suer (Jul 1, 2008)

As someone recently said (was it Ron Dennis?), write off Raikkonen at your own peril. I think McLaren of all teams are fully aware of that, if it were that easy as the armchair pundits suggest, they should be opening the crates of champagne just about now.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Patrick said:


> After last season, I am not going to write Räikkönen off (like the I-talian media already has).
> 
> And to those that keep saying that he has lost his motivation, lost the drive, lost the will to win, I will say this: *just STFU*.
> 
> That is utter nonsense. Räikkönen will not give up.


Umm, so should all the tifosi just pretend the last few races by KR have gone swimmingly? They all want KR to do well, but let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge the last few performances have been decidedly sub-par (unless you want to call running outside the top 3 a "par" performance for Kimi?)

And of course anything is possible. It always is (until someone has mathematically sewn up the WDC). One doesn't need to reference the last season to point that out. I was as happy as anyone else w/ the final outcome of last season. But what are the chances that can be repeated? We can all hope so, but I for one would not bet on it.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Don't bury Nick just yet:

*Unofficial Thursday times from Monza:
*1. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 1:22.621
2. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 1: 22.879
3. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 1: 23.341
4. Sebastian Vettel, Toro Rosso, 1: 23.424
5. Felipe Massa, Ferrari, 1: 23.445
6. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 1:23.606 
7. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 1:23.823
8. Mark Webber, Red Bull, 1:23.936
9. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 1:24.158
10. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso, 1:24.311
11. Rubens Barrichello, Honda, 1:24.695
12. Jenson Button, Honda, 1:25.049


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I am still waiting to hear about today's times.


.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Don't pick on my Man*

Ferrari president pledges Raikkonen support

By Michele Lostia Saturday, August 30th 2008, 09:37 GMT

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has pledged his support for struggling world champion Kimi Raikkonen and dismissed speculation the driver might be replaced by Fernando Alonso.

The Finn, who hasn't won a race in the last four months, has been rumoured to be forced out of the Italian team next year, despite having a contract running to the end of 2009, with the two-time Spanish champion in line for the coveted drive.

However, when questioned by the Italian media on whether the driver line-up at Maranello would remain the same next year, di Montezemolo replied: "Absolutely, yes."

Asked if that meant that Alonso should put his mind at rest then, the Italian said: "I don't know if he can put his mind at rest, poor guy, at the moment it's up to him. I was sorry to see a great champion like him be out of the top ten at Valencia.

"But with regards to Ferrari, he can put his mind at rest."

Di Montezemolo added: "All this criticism (of Raikkonen) reminds me of when (Filippo) Inzaghi was at Juventus: if he didn't score for three games, everyone would say he was in crisis.

"It can't be forgotten that he's the world champion, and that last year he won in his first season with Ferrari, while many people never thought he would do so. Now he has 17 victories and I hope he'll get back to winning ways in the next Grand Prix in Belgium. Anyway, he's not a driver in crisis.

"Kimi is motivated and we must work to put him in the conditions to start races nearer the front, especially on these new circuits which I don't like and are bad for F1: you can't overtake on them, and nine times out of ten the man on pole wins."

During yesterday's Formula One testing session in Monza, Raikkonen was visited by di Montezemolo.

Asked what his president had told him, the Finn was quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport: "He didn't tell me anything in particular. I already had a contract (for 2009), so it's nothing new for me.

"Today's test went well, we've tried different solutions to several small problems. In the next races we'll do our best to win and we'll see how it ends up."


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

This coming weekend, Räikkönen will show all the doubters that he is still in there, and has not given up.

Pole and race victory coming.

Deal with it.


.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I would love to see that. :thumbup:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> This coming weekend, Räikkönen will show all the doubters that he is still in there, and has not given up.
> 
> Pole and race victory coming.
> 
> ...


Wir werden sehen.

or

Näemme.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Its all about messing with the rules to artificially create a show. Lets get back to racing, good racing, real racing and the show will appear on its own.


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## Gh0sT (May 20, 2006)

Bruce said:


> Still not sure I understand the 2 tire compound rule. Let the manufacturers tell Bridgestone what tire they want. Pick one (per team- each team has its own choice, if one team wants to run full soft, let them). This spec tire stuff is crap.


B-Stone has a full array of soft to hard settings at this disposal. Per race weekend they pick a certain range of tyres. In the case of Spa, they are sending over the Hard Type of tyre.

Out of that Hard Type there are two different types. A softer and a harder version of the type they sent over. Hence "Option" and "Prime" that you hear when you watch F1. The Rule of F1 is that you need to at least use each tyre (option and prime) at least for one complete lap. This is so that there is at least 1 pit stop per car/driver.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

An artificial show.


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

Gh0sT said:


> B-Stone has a full array of soft to hard settings at this disposal. Per race weekend they pick a certain range of tyres. In the case of Spa, they are sending over the Hard Type of tyre.
> 
> Out of that Hard Type there are two different types. A softer and a harder version of the type they sent over. Hence "Option" and "Prime" that you hear when you watch F1. The Rule of F1 is that you need to at least use each tyre (option and prime) at least for one complete lap. This is so that there is at least 1 pit stop per car/driver.


I understand the "what?", I don't understand the "why?". I don't buy the argument "for the show" as I don't think it adds anything. I am really not a fan of turning F1 into spec racing. If I wanted to watch spec racing, I'd watch Nascar.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*It's easy!*



Bruce said:


> I am really not a fan of turning F1 into spec racing.


The FIA, and The Turd in particular, ARE fans of turning this "show" into a spec series. They want the NASCRAP effect.

Doing so will _save money_ for the privateer teams involved (reduce costs) as they are the "bread and butter" of Formula 1, ensure that the big teams will stay in the sport (so they think), get more sponsors involved (to pay for everything), create a _safer_ race environment for the drivers, and be more _exciting_ for race fans. :thumbup:

: puke:

What a load of sh!t.

Engine development frozen, one tire provider, bizarre tire regulations, spec ECU... One can only wonder what they will come up with next.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Lewis Talkin Sh***

Hamilton unfazed by Ferrari's speed

By Jonathan Noble and Pablo Elizalde Friday, September 5th 2008, 16:00 GMT

Lewis Hamilton is unconcerned about Ferrari's top speed advantage at the Spa circuit and reckons the Italian squad and McLaren will be equally strong in Belgium.

Ferrari's Felipe Massa posted the fastest time of the day on Friday, finishing nearly six tenths of a second ahead of Hamilton in the morning session.

The Brazilian, six points behind Hamilton in the standings, was also quicker than his McLaren rival in the afternoon.

But Hamilton made it clear after the sessions that he did not think Ferrari were ahead of McLaren.

"We're still going for the win. We're just as competitive as them. We're pretty much equal with them," Hamilton told reporters after practice.

"For sure, they have a bit more speed at the end of the straight, but it's only by a couple of km/h, not five or eight. I don't think it will make any difference."

The championship leader said he felt McLaren were a lot more competitive than last year, when Ferrari dominated the race.

"Today it was raining in some parts more than others and that made it a little bit tricky. But I feel very happy with the balance and the package we have this weekend.

"It's definitely a lot more competitive than we were here last year. We just have to keep pushing hard to get out in front."

Hamilton said he did not care if qualifying or the race are wet, although he did confess he would prefer the challenge of running at full speed in the dry.

"We were strong in Monaco and Silverstone, but I don't mind," he said. "It would be nice if it is dry. It's a great challenge in the dry, but in the wet it will be so tricky for everyone as the GP2 guys have found out."

He continued: "It's like night and day. There's a huge difference. When it's dry you can push, use the curves and every bit of the grass, but in the wet you have no grip.

"And if you touch a white line or a kerb then you are going to crash. It's very tricky just to know where the puddles are, you can have aqua-planing.

"The second you step out of the braking zone and you are a fraction late, then you will go straight."


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

More "news" from Spa...

In yesterday's first free practice session, Räikkönen's car had some strange electrical problems. He drove an out lap with the refueling door open, and when he came into the pits, the pit lane speed limiter button on the steering wheel did not work. The result, a 2400 EUR ($3500) speeding ticket.

Ferrari thought that they had fixed the problem, so Räikkönen went back out. Upon his return to the pits, the speed limiter again failed to work. That resulted in another, 2500 EUR speeding ticket!

Red Bull will use Ferrari engines next year - Scuderia Toro Rosso will get Honda engines (yikes!) and Takuma Sato (yikes!) in one package. Yikes!

Heidfeld's seat with BMW for 2009 may be in jeopardy if he does not get a result this weekend.

Alonso has made a decision about where he will drive in 2009, but he isn't telling anyone until after Monza.

That's all that I have at this moment!


.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Hamilton unfazed by Ferrari's speed


I guess that he knew what he was talking about...

I pray for rain tomorrow.

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*Questions*

1. Is Räikkönen starting heavy (again)? :tsk:

2. What is up with Scuderia Toro Rosso? :yikes:

3. Why is Honda still in Formula 1? :thumbdwn:

4. Will David Coulthard retire already next weekend at Monza? :dunno:

5. Whose father is more annoying to see in the pits; Hamilton's or Massa's? :rofl:

Someone, please answer these questions. :bigpimp:

.


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## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

Patrick said:


> 1. Is Räikkönen starting heavy (again)? :tsk:


 Tata.


> 2. What is up with Scuderia Toro Rosso? :yikes:


Blue.


> 3. Why is Honda still in Formula 1? :thumbdwn:


African.


> 4. Will David Coulthard retire already next weekend at Monza? :dunno:


Intle QuickPath Interconnect.


> 5. Whose father is more annoying to see in the pits; Hamilton's or Massa's? :rofl:


Zambia.


> Someone, please answer these questions. :bigpimp:
> 
> .


There you go. 

Oh, wait. You wanted answers that make sense. Sorry, this is F1, those aren't allowed. :tsk:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

:rofl:

Thanks! :bigpimp:


.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I hope Patrick runs out of vodka before he drinks himself to death...


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I need to take a break from Formula 1 for a lengthy period of time. 

I feel unwell.


.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

As usual, Grandprix.com has it exactly right:

*Belgian GP - Sunday - Race Report*

*F1 shoots itself in the foot*

 Felipe Massa, Lewis Hamilton, Belgian GP 2008 
© The Cahier Archive

Lewis Hamilton scored a wonderful win over Ferrari at Spa on Sunday, snatching victory from Kimi Raikkonen in the dying moments of the race, as rain began to fall on the Belgian circuit. It was a terrific race, with plenty of spectacular action. There was no shortage of scrambling in the final few minutes with a number of drivers stretching the rules as they did everything they could to make it to the flag. But when it came to handing out punishments, the stewards concentrated on Hamilton. In Valencia a fortnight ago Felipe Massa was investigated for "unsafe release" from his Ferrari pit. His penalty normally would have been a 10s stop and go penalty, which would have denied him victory. Instead Felipe was fined. At Spa a McLaren was in the firing line and the decision was very different. A 25secs penalty dropped Hamilton from first to third.
"I would be surprised if there was a penalty," Hamilton said before the stewards' decision. "This is motor racing and if there is a penalty something is wrong. It was fair and square, it would be absolutely wrong if that happens, but we know what they're like."
Everyone in Formula 1 knew exactly what Hamilton meant - and millions of spectators across the world as well. Whether the FIA likes it or not there is a widely-held belief that Ferrari is always favoured by the decision-makers, particularly if McLaren is involved. The FIA argues that this is not the case, but who believes it these days? There have been too many decisions like this. The actual decision is really irrelevant. Hopefully Hamilton will direct his frustrations and win the World Championship without needing the points he lost at Spa. The key question is whether the FIA can find a way to restore some faith in the sport. People are tired of such rubbish, particularly as the credibility of the FIA is at an all-time low after the Mosley Scandal.
We're not saying that there is a giant conspiracy against McLaren, but all too often it looks that way. It happens time and time again. And when the boot is on the other foot the decisions seem to be different. In F1 circles it is called "the red car rule". People just do not believe it any longer. And that is scary because if they stop believing in the sport, then we are lost. It is really not clear what Hamilton was supposed to do after the incident. He ran across the chicane and then carefully backed off and allowed Raikkonen to repass him. At the next corner Hamilton was able to scramble ahead and, after another gripping skirmish at Pouhon that lap, he went on to win as Raikkonen blew his chances of victory by first spinning and then crashing out of the race in the damp conditions.
Hamilton made no such mistakes and took what was an impressive victory.
In those wild laps Raikkonen did a number of things that might also have been punished. He appeared to use the high-friction run-off areas at Pouhon to gain advantage and close right up to Hamilton. He then clearly overtook Hamilton at a point where there was a waved yellow flag. He did not mean to do it, he was avoiding a collision with Nico Rosberg, who was rejoining the race after a spin, but it is also clear that Hamilton was doing everything he could do to avoid gaining an advantage from what he had done.
"We look at all our data and also made it available to the FIA stewards," McLaren said in a statement. "It showed that having lifted Lewis was 6kmh slower than Kimi as they crossed the start finish line. Having passed the lead back to Kimi, Lewis repositioned his car, moving across and behind Kimi to the right-hand line and then outbraked him into the hairpin. Based on this data, we have no option other than to register our intention to appeal. We are a racing team and will now focus on Monza, with a view to extending our lead in the Drivers' World Championship."
It is so sad that the day had to end as it did for it had been a super race. Hamilton led from the start but then had a quick spin at the start of the second lap that allowed Raikkonen to go ahead. Kimi had made no friends by forcing his way past team-mate Felipe Massa on the first lap, deliberately running wide on to the run-off area at La Source to gain an advantage on the run own the hill to Eau Rouge. Massa said he had been too cautious.
"It was pretty close," Massa said. "Kimi was so quick he was going to pass me easy, yet he started to close the line and we nearly touched wheel to wheel. I thought that was strange."
That looked like a falling out. Kimi has seemed asleep for much of this season but at Spa he seemed suddenly awake and ruthless. Or desperate. In any case he was ahead and there he stayed as Hamilton tried to hold on. Hamilton was the first to pit for fuel, on lap 11. Raikkonen was in a lap later and by the time the stops were completed Kimi had increased his advantage as Lewis had been caught in traffic. The plan had been to do a short stint to try to make up time and take the lead at the second stops, but it did not work. It looked as though all was lost, but in the closing laps Lewis found he could close on Raikkonen. With eight laps left Kimi was two seconds ahead and seemed to be comfortable but then spots of rain appeared at the back of the track and suddenly the story changed. 
"I was just pushing, pushing, pushing, trying to close the gap," said Hamilton. "I would pull back a tenth at a time, and then he'd pull away. I was hoping that he'd catch traffic, and sometimes he got it on the straight and got a tow, and sometimes I'd get it in a corner. It was mix and match. Going through Eau Rouge I could see clouds and I was praying, 'Please, rain, rain, rain!' I knew how to deal with it. Then I saw Kimi begin to back off."
The battle got wilder as the conditions grew worse and as they went into the chicane at the end of lap 42 they were side-by-side.
"I was in a good position to dive inside him and he covered his spot, which was fair," Hamilton said. "He braked early, so I went round outside and left him enough room. He accelerated, or picked up more pace in the corner, and drove me as wide as he possibly could. I had no room left. I thought, 'If I stay where I am I can try to go over the green astroturf bit and hit him, or I go left.' The latter was the option I had to do, so I did it."
Hamilton was thus ahead. He knew that he had to give the place back and he did. The team told him as well. There was no attempt to avoid the rules.
"I was still accelerating, but not at full throttle," he said. "He was in my blind spot so I waited until I saw him come by and then got on it and back into his slipstream."
They headed into La Source with Kimi jinking about trying to keep Lewis behind but Hamilton nailed him and went down the inside. At the apex of the corner Kimi nudged him up the back, obviously frustrated at having blown it after a good afternoon of racing.
Out on the track conditions were worse and at Pouhon Raikkonen went way wide on to the high friction tarmac that is designed to slow the cars. It gave him extra grip and he came back at Lewis as they went into the next right hander. The problem was that Nico Rosberg had spun and was getting back on the track as the two leaders arrived. Yellow flags were being waved. Hamilton had to go left on to the grass to avoid the Williams. Kimi nearly ran into the back of it, but managed to scrambled through.
Raikkonen had overtaken both cars under a yellow flag. He did not mean to. It just happened. Did anyone question that? It was all irrelevant as almost immediately Raikkonen spun and Lewis was ahead again.
"It was so much fun," said Hamilton. "My heart was racing more than it ever has before!"
Raikkonen tried to give chase but then spun again and this time piled the Ferrari into the wall. His comeback was over. The Italian media started to sharpen their knives again. He had blown it.
Hamilton still had to get his car home but with Massa looking for points there was no challenge and Lewis backed right off. Behind him there was all kinds of excitement as the chasers scrambled for points. Heidfeld, Glock, Rosberg, Nakajima, Coulthard and Fisichella all dived into the pits for intermediate tyres. Alonso went too. As Spa is a long track the ploy worked and Heidfeld pulled off an amazing lap as he went past Vettel, Kubica and finally Bourdais to grab third place. Bourdais lost his momentum and was passed by Vettel and Kubica. Alonso's gamble also paid off, hustling the car around to finish fourth.
Heidfeld has had a tough time of late and this was a reward for him.
"I was convinced it would be heavier on the next lap and decided to change to wet weather tyres. The team asked me if I meant what I said. When I left the pit lane after the stop I asked on the radio how many laps to go, and my engineer said this one and another one. It was a Hero or Zero decision."
Although Bourdais lost out it was still a good day for his team with both he and Vettel bringing home points.
"On the last lap it was a lottery with the car getting away from you with every turn of the wheel," Bourdais said. "It's a horrible situation, as everything had been under control up until then. But I am not in a situation where I can risk everything and at the end of the race I didn't even know where I finished. It was so close to being a great result I felt I could almost touch it and so it was a very frustrating way to finish."
Glock's gamble also seemed to pay off but later he was docked 25s for ignoring waved yellows, so he dropped from eighth to ninth behind Mark Webber, who thus took a point for Red Bull.
Others had suffered earlier. Jarno Trulli made an astonishing start, only to get hit heavily from behind by Bourdais at La Source. The Toyota handled terribly for the rest of the day and Jarno dropped away. Bourdais was lucky. Heikki Kovalainen made an awful start and bumped into Nick Heidfeld. Later Trulli spun in the chicane at the end of the lap, while a recovering Kovalainen pushed Mark Webber into a spin there as they battled. Later he was judged at fault and got a drive-through penalty.
It was an entertaining race which lit up like a firework at the end. Sadly the stewards threw a bucket of cold water over the whole event.
We can only hope that the FIA Court of Appeal will be a little more reasonable.
But few believe that will happen.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

In my opinion, if McLaren's appeal is unsuccessful, everyone except Ferrari might as well just forget about the appeal process forever. Of course all Ferrari appeals are to be successful, by definition. Perhaps the series should just be renamed "Ferrari 1". Just award the tropies at the beginning of the season for the upcoming season and take *ALL* the suspense out of it.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I am too depressed about this race to even argue.

I guess if Hamilton would have waited until after La Source, and passed Räikkönen after Eau Rouge (which he would have), perhaps there wouldn't have been this penalty issue. Yeah, this is the McLaren vs FIA situation again, but whatever. I suspect that the FIA will give the race victory back to Hamilton.

Anyway, it was a wild end to a wild race.

It is too late, but Räikkönen is back from where ever he has been for the last four months. That is a good thing for Massa.


.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Seriously Lewis should be penalized.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Seriously Lewis should be penalized.


I am not so sure - yes and no.

He gained an advantage by cutting the chicane (yes), but he gave P1 back to Räikkönen. I think that he passed Räikkönen too soon afterwards.

I thought that the desperation driving and risking their cars as they did was something that we haven't seen in years. It was like Spoonface vs Häkkinen, and it was fantastic.

Also, those people that have been saying that Räikkönen has given up, that there is something wrong with him, that he is not interested and the like, can go and check themselves. Räikkönen spanked Massa (and he even had the nerve to complain about it!), and showed Hamilton the door.

Räikkönen will continue the ass kicking next weekend, whatever the weather is.

Deal with it.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Lewis did not intentionally drop back, he was racing and happened to slip back. Their relative positions, spacing, before the chicane is what is required.

It must have been devastating to Kimi. I was to me. I was watching a tape and I turned it off when Kimi crashed. I couldn't stand it.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I think that he let Räikkönen pass. This same thing happened at least 10 times in the two GP2 races over the weekend when someone gained an advantage by cutting corners. It also happened in the Porsche Super Cup race Sunday morning - the driver that gets the advantage allows the car(s) he passed to pass him, and they assume the same position that they had before.

Well, whether Hamilton did or didn't, really doesn't matter to me.

When I read about the 25 second penalty last night, my reaction was "meh". I guess that it is one further scandal in Formula 1...


.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

I think that the stewards point of view is.

You drive through a chicane, there should be some sort of penalty if you suddenly are right back into the race next corner. He was drag racing Kimi down the straight after he went through a chicane and 'let' Kimi catch back up.

I do agree he should be penalized but not to that extent. I do not feel that level of penalty was necessary.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> I suggest you watch the film, Frank. It may be "black and white" to you...but it clearly isn't given the objections to the penalty that myriad fans are making.


Are we voting here or expressing our opinions?

It can be argued several ways, especially if you allow your prejudices and your favorite teams and drivers to enter.

Lewis did drop back but was it a choice or was he out accelerated by Kimi? Did Lewis fully drop back and restore the position before the chicane as per the rules? No, he did not.

Massa saw it on tape and from more than one camera position so even if he didn't see it live he did see it fully. With the competition between Massa and Kimi and all other officials and drivers viewing the tapes do you think that Massa would try to lie for benefit? I doubt it.

Last, its not only my opinion it is the opinion of the marshals per the rules of the sport. So those arguing against me are arguing against all the marshals too.

BTW Berford, I do have it on tape and I have watched it several times, but not because you suggested. In light of the ruling you may want to look at it again starting a couple corners back.


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> It can be argued several ways, especially if you allow your prejudices and your favorite teams and drivers to enter.


I have no dog in this fight.



franka said:


> Lewis did drop back but was it a choice or was he out accelerated by Kimi? Did Lewis fully drop back and restore the position before the chicane as per the rules? No, he did not.


Advantage means running order not the number of feet between the cars. Hamilton obviously gave the position back, but only the bare minimum.



franka said:


> Massa saw it on tape and from more than one camera position so even if he didn't see it live he did see it fully. With the competition between Massa and Kimi and all other officials and drivers viewing the tapes do you think that Massa would try to lie for benefit? I doubt it.


Absolutely Massa would say whatever as he was the one that gained the most in this situation.



franka said:


> Last, its not only my opinion it is the opinion of the marshals per the rules of the sport. So those arguing against me are arguing against all the marshals too.


Yeah, the officiating in every sport is always correct on every decision....that's why we have reiviews in many sports now right?

Which brings up one of the biggest problems with the officiating of F1....they need to have CONSISTENT stewards, not stewards of the week. The stewards should be the same every week, not this rotating crap that is basically a reward to the heads of the country sporting bodies. Would be nice to have at least 1 of the stewards be an ex-F1 driver.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Bruce said:


> I have no dog in this fight.
> 
> Advantage means running order not the number of feet between the cars. Hamilton obviously gave the position back, but only the bare minimum.
> 
> ...


+1

In addition, in respect to Hamilton's actions, Dennis has been quoted as having engine rev data showing that he backed off rather than accelerating, as you suggest. That's an important aspect of the eventual review (or should be.) He gave up any position gain he might have had from having missed the chicane.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Check it out: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?belgp08


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

berford said:


> +1
> 
> In addition, in respect to Hamilton's actions, Dennis has been quoted as having engine rev data showing that he backed off rather than accelerating, as you suggest. That's an important aspect of the eventual review (or should be.) He gave up any position gain he might have had from having missed the chicane.


To be honest Lewis was not side by side or slightly behind if he had not braked later and thus missed the chicane. If he had braked sooner, and run the course as designed he would have been behind Kimi on that straight.

It is fine that the revs were lower and he gave the 'bare minimum' but if he had stayed on track he would have been 'behind', as in physically behind Kimi and at a much slower speed. This is my opinion.

If you watch the Onboard from the McLaren he FLIES past Kimi in the braking zone but was NOT close enough to get in front of along side Kimi on track. So he went wide through the chicane.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Bruce said:


> I have no dog in this fight.
> 
> Advantage means running order not the number of feet between the cars. .QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Bruce said:


> Advantage means running order not the number of feet between the cars. Hamilton obviously gave the position back, but only the bare minimum.


I don't think "advantage" is so narrowly defined. If I cut thru a chicane and come back to the racing line with better momentum that my opponent (even if I have tucked in behind him and _nominally _given up position), then I have gained an advantage and am in a much better position to overtake at the next straight/corner due to this.

So I think that's really the crux of the issue. Whether LH had better momentum than KR when he came back to the track. IDK if that's been proved yet. I'd like to see the evidence.


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> Bruce said:
> 
> 
> > I have no dog in this fight.
> ...


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Definition of "advantage" is the key. I would like to see the wording of the regulations. 

I agree with 1985mb's general point of view.


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> Definition of "advantage" is the key. I would like to see the wording of the regulations.
> 
> I agree with 1985mb's general point of view.


Actually the stewards did not penalize Hamilton for "gaining an advantage", they cited him for violating section 30.3 (a) of the sporting code which basically says you can only use the track (i.e. you can't go off track). The sporting regs say nothing about advantage anywhere (the word is not used at all in the document).

If that is the way they want to apply the regulations then they MUST penailze everybody that went off at anytime during the race (especially the first lap where lots of people went off at La Source). They can't arbitrarily apply the rules when it is convenient for the red cars.

Actually, I don't see where the rule is that Hamilton had to give back the position (although it has to be in there somehwere).

I would also argue that Kimi was in violation of Appendix L 2 (c) where it talks about "hindering other drivers" and "deliberate crowding" in curves could be applicable. Which really is what I am saying. Kimi picked the right side of the track...he should have stayed on the right side of the track thru BOTH corners of the chicane. IMO...Kimi was wrong, not Lewis.

http://planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3265_4116523,00.html

F1 Sporting regs: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf
International Sporting code Appendix L: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/CA5A166189CFBA56C125747B002E4371/$FILE/Annexe%20L_08.07.03.pdf


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

The officials will make a determination and we all will have to live with it, like it or not.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Hami was accused of leaving the track in violation of Sporting Regulation Article 30.2 (a), which reads:
​*During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.* 

Also, under the Sporting Code, App. L, Chapter 4, Article 2 (g), we find this:​*The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race.*

So, mate, you gotta keep it on the track at all times. I guess that means that all off-track excursions must be accompanied by a 25 second penalty or more. But wait, didn't I see a lot of that. Apparently accident avoidance is not just cause for such excursions, either. At least it doesn't say so.

Care to read more? References found at: http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/f1regs.html​


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Meh.


.


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## 1985mb (Apr 2, 2008)

Bruce said:


> Actually the stewards did not penalize Hamilton for "gaining an advantage", they cited him for violating section 30.3 (a) of the sporting code which basically says you can only use the track (i.e. you can't go off track). The sporting regs say nothing about advantage anywhere (the word is not used at all in the document).
> 
> If that is the way they want to apply the regulations then they MUST penailze everybody that went off at anytime during the race (especially the first lap where lots of people went off at La Source). They can't arbitrarily apply the rules when it is convenient for the red cars.
> 
> ...


That is interesting. I suspect the official position will be that section 30.3 is applied when some advantage is gained by leaving the track.

Normally, you lose position and/or momentum by going off the track. There's nothing to penalize a driver who has already penalized himself.

It's unreasonable to say all drivers going off should be penalized. That is not the standard to judge the "consistency" of officials. It is also a convenient straw man with which to attempt to "exonerate" LH.

Having said all that, the harshness of the penalty also seems a little unreasonable, even if we admit some advantage was gained while violating section 30.3 or whatever


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

But the reason he gained an "advantage" (which I think he gave back) was because Kimi didn't give him room at the 2nd apex.


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## dinanm3atl (Sep 26, 2007)

Bruce said:


> But the reason he gained an "advantage" (which I think he gave back) was because Kimi didn't give him room at the 2nd apex.


Why was Kimi required to give him room? Kimi ran the racing line as everyone tried to do every time around the track. Lewis was not far enough ahead to pull that move and thus it put him where he was.

Look back at Germany, LH used that squeeze move TWICE to make passes on the inside. He forced people out wide twice.


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

dinanm3atl said:


> Why was Kimi required to give him room? Kimi ran the racing line as everyone tried to do every time around the track. Lewis was not far enough ahead to pull that move and thus it put him where he was.
> 
> Look back at Germany, LH used that squeeze move TWICE to make passes on the inside. He forced people out wide twice.


B/C Kimi chose the right side of the track at the first corner. He needs to give room for Hamilton in case he truly is faster. Hamilton was equal to, or maybe slightly ahead of Kimi at the turn-in for the first corner. If Hamilton had only had his front tire alongside the middle of Kimi's car then the situation is different. Kimi KNEW Hamilton would be there on his left at the next corner.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

It sounds like they (stewards) came to the conclusion of either a 25sec penalty for Spa, or 10 grid place drop for Monza. He was getting penalized no matter what.


.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

Funny no one brought up Heidfeld's brilliant move of putting intermediate tires on which enabled him to finish third (second) in the race. Another half lap or so and he would have won it :yikes: :rofl:
I guess his job is secure for the moment? When can BMW start having the same pace as Ferrari and McLaren? I want to see them win races because they won it not because they're lucky.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Holy Crap! :yikes:
> 
> .


Indeed. Very unusual starting grid.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Very odd qualifying today. The extreme rain and wet track screwed most of the big names out of grid positions. When will you ever see Lewis, Kimi, and Kubica not make it through to Q3 again?

Congrats to Vettel! Its good to see the the underdog do well.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Its not so bad being Vettel... where do I sign up to be an F1 driver?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*Rumors from Monza*

It seems that I was wrong about one important thing: Alonso will not be replacing Heidfeld, but KUBICA. 

And that means that Kubica will be teammates with Luca Di Grassi at Renault.

:dunno:

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

HOLY CRAP!!!!!12!! :yikes: 


.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

Patrick said:


> It seems that I was wrong about one important thing: Alonso will not be replacing Heidfeld, but KUBICA.
> 
> And that means that Kubica will be teammates with Luca Di Grassi at Renault.
> 
> ...


Where'd you hear this? According to F1crazy, Kubica is under contract thru the end of 2009.
Maybe BMW can find a way to sign Vettel


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## GimpyMcFarlan (Aug 13, 2002)

jcatral14 said:


> Where'd you hear this? According to F1crazy, Kubica is under contract thru the end of 2009.
> Maybe BMW can find a way to sign Vettel


I thought Vettel was still under contract w/ BMW and simpy on loan to Torro Rosso? :dunno:


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## dinanm3atl (Sep 26, 2007)

What a great race and quali and weekend.

Kubica 3rd in Drivers
BMW 3rd in Constructors

NICE!

Still waiting for the Hamilton comments that won't come.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

GimpyMcFarlan said:


> I thought Vettel was still under contract w/ BMW and simpy on loan to Torro Rosso? :dunno:


Other way around. He was on loan last year to BMW, but under contract to RB. He was not BMW property.


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## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

dinanm3atl said:


> What a great race and quali and weekend.
> 
> Kubica 3rd in Drivers
> BMW 3rd in Constructors
> ...


What? The fact that he finished AHEAD of Raikkonen and behind Massa, all while starting from 15th wasn't enough?

Let's flip this...what is Ferrari's excuse?

:dunno:


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## dinanm3atl (Sep 26, 2007)

e46Christian said:


> What? The fact that he finished AHEAD of Raikkonen and behind Massa, all while starting from 15th wasn't enough?
> 
> Let's flip this...what is Ferrari's excuse?
> 
> :dunno:


Nah

Not that.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

GimpyMcFarlan said:


> I thought Vettel was still under contract w/ BMW and simpy on loan to Torro Rosso? :dunno:


Nah, he was released as they could not find a place for him in the team and to Thiessen's credit, didn't want Vettel to languish as a test driver. I'm just wondering out loud about Vettel rejoining BMW. Anyone know how long his contract with STR is?


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

jcatral14 said:


> Nah, he was released as they could not find a place for him in the team and to Thiessen's credit, didn't want Vettel to languish as a test driver. I'm just wondering out loud about Vettel rejoining BMW. Anyone know how long his contract with STR is?


Vettel has always been a Red Bull driver and was never a BMW driver. His entire career so far has been backed by Red Bull. BMW borrowed him from the RBR camp back then. His contract with STR ends this year and will drive for RBR for 09.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

armaq said:


> His contract with STR ends this year and will drive for RBR for 09.


I wonder if he is happy about this situation...

.


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

Patrick said:


> I wonder if he is happy about this situation...
> 
> .


If I were Dietrich Mateschitz, I'd consider turning STR to Red Bull Team 1 and sellling RBR.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

armaq said:


> If I were Dietrich Mateschitz, I'd consider turning STR to Red Bull Team 1 and sellling RBR.


That would probably be a wise idea!

Vettel's victory was a victory for Minardi, Red Bull, Ferrari and Toro Rosso. Absolutely amazing.

I realized that Vettel was going to win when Hamilton's one stop strategy failed. And I couldn't believe it.

Gerhard Berger likes to party; I am sure that they are still going strong today! :rofl:

.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

e46Christian said:


> What? The fact that he finished AHEAD of Raikkonen and behind Massa, all while starting from 15th wasn't enough?
> 
> Let's flip this...what is Ferrari's excuse?
> 
> :dunno:


Yah, IMO Hami should have no excuses...he ran a superb race, all things considered.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Yah, IMO Hami should have no excuses...he ran a superb race, all things considered.


Aside from running Glock off the track, cutting off Alonso and hitting Webber.

He drove like he had something to prove, but three of his fellow drivers are rather angry with him right now.

.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Its amazing that Hamilton made it so far up the positions... just to have a bad tire choice and do nothing after that. I thought with ~15 laps to go that he would easily pass Massa and Heidfeld, but I guess his tires were "cooking" as he put it.

And after Ron Dennis made the backhanded comments about Vettel running qualifying with too much downforce, he can officially STFU. Vettel said they had a dry setup for the race, and he ran circles around Heikki.

Finally, did anyone else watch the post-race press conference and notice how amped-up Vettel was? He was chugging his drink and I assume some of it went down the wrong pipe. He spent most of the rest of the time coughing.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Two items.....

Vettel was probably set-up for a full wet race gambling on what the weather would be on Sunday. That allowed him to qualify ahead of the others and to run away from the rest of the pack in the race.

Wet racing should be banded. Its just a crap shoot. I've said this before. Multi million dollars cars and drivers risking their cars and their lives. That is not racing. It may be fun to watch for some but its not racing.


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## armaq (Apr 18, 2003)

franka said:


> Wet racing should be banded. Its just a crap shoot. I've said this before. Multi million dollars cars and drivers risking their cars and their lives. That is not racing. It may be fun to watch for some but its not racing.


:yikes:

I tend to disagree with you on a lot of things, but that is just absurd. That's so wrong on so many different levels.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*Fail*



franka said:


> It may be fun to watch for some but its not racing.












Formula 1 racing in the wet is (like WRC in the snow, or MotoGP in the wet) the pinnacle of motor sport.

There is nothing more insane, more difficult, unpredictable and wild in racing.

Other forms of racing STOP the race if it rains - like in girl's softball. Tire technology and driver skill is unmatched in Formula 1.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

armaq said:


> :yikes:
> 
> I tend to disagree with you on a lot of things, but that is just absurd. That's so wrong on so many different levels.


Well come on then, spit them out then. If there are so many reasons and levels then lets hear just 3, any 3 will do.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Seriously, what has happened to Kimi and what is with him always and purposefully capturing the fast lap of the race?

Is that to show everyone he is still the fastest? Or is it a way to try to keep his job?


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Seriously, what has happened to Kimi and what is with him always and purposefully capturing the fast lap of the race?
> 
> Is that to show everyone he is still the fastest? Or is it a way to try to keep his job?


I am no expert here, but this is what Räikkönen said after the race in Finnish:

- he had trouble keeping any grip with the extreme wet tires after the start
- once the track dried out and he had intermediate wet tires, the car was fantastic
- had the rain stopped earlier, he would have been higher up (same with Hamilton)
- he doesn't himself know why the grip issues change from one stint to the next

And he is also now ready to help Massa defeat Hamilton.

.


----------



## griffmac (Sep 29, 2006)

armaq said:


> If I were Dietrich Mateschitz, I'd consider turning STR to Red Bull Team 1 and sellling RBR.


Red Bull builds the cars for STR. Maybe he just needs to hire some of the race and development engineers from STR...or get the Ferrari engines.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

griffmac said:


> Red Bull builds the cars for STR. Maybe he just needs to hire some of the race and development engineers from STR...or get the Ferrari engines.


I wouldn't be laying down any bets based on the last race performance. They were lucky the race was as wet as it was because it fit their full wet set-up.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

franka said:


> Wet racing should be banded. Its just a crap shoot. I've said this before. Multi million dollars cars and drivers risking their cars and their lives. That is not racing. It may be fun to watch for some but its not racing.


How is racing in the rain not racing? With the logic of every driver should receive optimal conditions, you might as well have the same setup for everyone (chassis, wing, engine, everything!). This doesn't even take into account the logistics of refunding tickets, changing the schedules of the teams, or possibly changing the schedule of the race track. Personally, I'd hate to have travel plans to Monaco, spend a pretty penny on hotel, plane, and other costs, and then not be able to see the race.

And saying they're risking their lives is a bit exaggerated. 
1. I believe the worst crashes I have seen within the past year have all been in dry conditions (see Kubica in Canada)
2. With all of the developments in safety for the F1 cars, even a serious injury is rare. Heiki had that terrible crash earlier this year and ran the next race.


----------



## griffmac (Sep 29, 2006)

franka said:


> I wouldn't be laying down any bets based on the last race performance. They were lucky the race was as wet as it was because it fit their full wet set-up.


It was covered in post-race p.c. that STRs were fast on the straights because they stuck to their dry setup. That wet setup stuff was just Ron Dennis excuse making.

And this wasn't the first race STRs have outpaced the Red Bull cars, it's been going on for a few races now.


----------



## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

armaq said:


> Vettel has always been a Red Bull driver and was never a BMW driver. His entire career so far has been backed by Red Bull. BMW borrowed him from the RBR camp back then. His contract with STR ends this year and will drive for RBR for 09.


From f1-live.com...

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080915002233.shtml



> ...BMW's Mario Theissen, who last year agreed to release the German from his contract as test driver.


:dunno:

But at any rate, he's not with BMW anymore


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

griffmac said:


> It was covered in post-race p.c. that STRs were fast on the straights because they stuck to their dry setup. That wet setup stuff was just Ron Dennis excuse making.
> 
> And this wasn't the first race STRs have outpaced the Red Bull cars, it's been going on for a few races now.


I watched the opening laps again on tape. The STR was going like hell on the straights, visibly faster than anyone behind them. I don't care what they say about their set-up because they were way faster than anyone behind them.

If you have a tape of it watch the first qtr of the race. No way were they running a dry set-up.

How else do you explain their performance if not via a wet set-up? How is it that he was pulling away from all the others lap after lap? Did the car improve that much since the prior race at Spa? Of course not.

Screw what Ron has to say or anyone else. Look at the beginning laps and tell me they were on a dry set up.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

bknauss said:


> How is racing in the rain not racing? With the logic of every driver should receive optimal conditions, you might as well have the same setup for everyone (chassis, wing, engine, everything!). This doesn't even take into account the logistics of refunding tickets, changing the schedules of the teams, or possibly changing the schedule of the race track. Personally, I'd hate to have travel plans to Monaco, spend a pretty penny on hotel, plane, and other costs, and then not be able to see the race.
> 
> And saying they're risking their lives is a bit exaggerated.
> 1. I believe the worst crashes I have seen within the past year have all been in dry conditions (see Kubica in Canada)
> 2. With all of the developments in safety for the F1 cars, even a serious injury is rare. Heiki had that terrible crash earlier this year and ran the next race.


Racing in the rain is fine and fair if the rain is steady thru the whole race and not coming down in buckets. But it never is consistant thru the whole race. Its arbitrary. The teams might as well flip for who wins. Its not often that the best team wins a wet race, like the current one.

Its the arbitrary nature of rain that is the problem, it helps some and hurts others arbitrarily. That is not fair condition for all. Plus it is dangerous.

A leading car can come into the pits on slicks (I know) and put on another set of slicks and then 3 minutes later it starts to pour like hell, before others pit. The others come in to pit and go to full wet and the former leading car is F*ked. Arbitrarilyy f*ckd.

The above has nothing to do with who is the best driver, who has the fastest car, the best pit crew etc.. It is arbitrary, a crap shoot. Its mostly down to chance with some skill and some talent and much higher risk to the machinery and the drivers.

Its the arbitrary nature of rain races and the much higer risk of injury that I am against.

Quite a few years ago, when Prost was driving for Ferrari in a rain race, Prost came into the pits and got out of the car. Ferrari was crazy livid. Prost said it was too dangerous to drive and stuck to it, even after Ferrari treatened to fire him. He told them to stick it and they fired him on the spot. Prost understood the danger and arbitrary nature.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

If you still want to run in the rain then declare the entire race to run on wets or intermeds. That would be more fair. And if the rain comes down hard stop the race.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

bknauss said:


> . With all of the developments in safety for the F1 cars, even a serious injury is rare. Heiki had that terrible crash earlier this year and ran the next race.


Improvements in safety are not reason to run a more dangerous race. Cars running 150 - 220 mph on the straights w/o seeing any of them around you is not very safe. One spin out and you would have one hellava T bone not to mention the other cars, and then the sanctioning bodies would do away with all rain races due to the liablity cost.


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## griffmac (Sep 29, 2006)

franka said:


> I watched the opening laps again on tape. The STR was going like hell on the straights, visibly faster than anyone behind them. I don't care what they say about their set-up because they were way faster than anyone behind them.
> 
> If you have a tape of it watch the first qtr of the race. No way were they running a dry set-up.
> 
> ...


Exactly, Wet setup = more downforce so if they were on a wet setup they would have been slower on the straights not faster. They won because:

a. Wet tracks are great equalizers
b. Vettel did a great job
c. Heikki sucks
d. The Ferrari is no good in the wet
e. Drying track killed Hamilton's one-stop strategy


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

griffmac said:


> Exactly, Wet setup = more downforce so if they were on a wet setup they would have been slower on the straights not faster. They won because:
> 
> a. Wet tracks are great equalizers
> b. Vettel did a great job
> ...


What makes you think that Hamilton was gonna win this race? His strategy was wrong because he didn't have enough fuel onboard. He had significantly less fuel than Kubica or Alonso, that's why they were an easy prey early on. Kubica had the best strategy, too bad he didn't have the car as good as McLaren...


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I've read somewhere that Domenicali worries about upcoming race at Singapore as it usually rains there around 8PM.


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## griffmac (Sep 29, 2006)

F1Crazy said:


> What makes you think that Hamilton was gonna win this race? His strategy was wrong because he didn't have enough fuel onboard. He had significantly less fuel than Kubica or Alonso, that's why they were an easy prey early on. Kubica had the best strategy, too bad he didn't have the car as good as McLaren...


Hamilton was on a one-stop strategy. He only stopped again to switch to inters - not to take fuel. Kubica's one stop was just a little later so he put inters on. I guess he did have a better strategy because he had longer to judge conditions but it wasn't a huge difference. Their stops were fairly close

Had it kept raining, it would have been an excellent race between Hamilton and Vettel. Or had Hamilton put inters on at his stop, he'd have been in excellent position.

I felt it was blatantly obvious the first 60% of the race that Hamilton was the only real threat to Vettel. The timing of track drying killed his chances. I'm not the only one who figured this out. From the Reuter's article....

"Hamilton, whose team won at Monza last year, paid the price for a wrong tire choice in Saturday's qualifying. Ironically, he felt he could have won on Sunday had he taken another gamble and insisted on intermediate tires rather than the full wets his team put on at what would have been his only pitstop. "It's a shame I had to stop again because I didn't need any more fuel, it was just because of track conditions," he said after a second stop to change to the quicker tires. "So unfortunately after having to change tires perhaps today I needed the gamble that I took yesterday."

I don't like Hamilton and I'm not pulling for him that's just what I saw.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Hamilton had his only scheduled pitstop on lap 27, Kubica on lap 34, that's a huge difference. He dropped to 10th after pitstop and had to pit again on lap 36, Vettel also had his final stop on the same lap and rejoined in 1st. Lewis claimed after the race that he was on the way to win but it is assuming he'd pass Vettel on track, something no one else could do all day.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

griffmac said:


> Exactly, Wet setup = more downforce so if they were on a wet setup they would have been slower on the straights not faster.


Not so due to hydroplaning.

A wet set-up means more downforce to push the tires down thru the water to the road. A dry set will hydroplane at a much lower speed than a wet set up.

In heavy wet like it was, a wet setup will always be faster than a dry set up because a dry set-up doesn't have the same downforce and will hydroplane at a much lower speed.

A wet set-up in heavy wet will always be faster than a dry set-up in heavy wet.

But in the dry the dry set-up will be faster because it has less downforce than the wet set up and therefore less drag.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> I understand that the case was not accepted therefore not heard. I got it way before the hearing.
> 
> The rest was just in fun. Using your reply to reply to you. But you didn't get it.
> 
> Speaking of getting it I'm getting out of here for the day.


Ummmm, I got it, just thought it was a little sh!tty.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Watching the free practice sessions tomorrow ought to be strange.

And I hear that it rains every evening in Singapore - at least according to the owner of Force India, who has lived there for 25 years. 


.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Rain on a new track and at night will be a sight to see. 

Lets hope no one is killed or seriously hurt. Maybe Bernie should ride along in the back seat during this race or any wet race.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Most of the drivers and many team members are ignoring the time difference to Europe, and maintaining GMT or CET clocks for the whole weekend.

Räikkönen said that he likes the idea of a night race because he likes to sleep in until at least 11:00 anyway. He said that he is a night person... :rofl: :drink:

He also plans to win all of the remaining races this season and see what happens. :eeps:

Peter Sauber on the other hand, has said (in his Credite Suisse blog) that he thinks that Hamilton will crack under pressure *again*. And that is this is due to McLaren's style - they were already claiming him to be champion before the first race start of 2008.

Emerson Fittipaldi has no faith in Massa, and thinks that Hamilton will take the championship.

And once again, for some odd reason, Bernie Ecclestone wants Hamilton to win the championship. :loco:

Isn't that sort of like that dweeb that runs the NBA (David Stern) saying that he hopes the Chicago Bulls win the NBA Championship? Or having a favorite overall? :dunno:

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Rain on a new track and at night will be a sight to see.


In your opinion, if it rains, should they cancel the race? :dunno:

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> In your opinion, if it rains, should they cancel the race? :dunno:
> 
> .


I'm not going to touch that subject


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> I'm not going to touch that subject


Cancel the season? :dunno: :rofl:

:stickpoke

.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

All the rain races I've ever seen have been exciting to watch. Doing it at night should be even more fun from the spectator standpoint. Bernie *$*hould to be overjoyed.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Not today Patrick...:rofl:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> And once again, for some odd reason, Bernie Ecclestone wants Hamilton to win the championship. :loco:
> 
> Isn't that sort of like that dweeb that runs the NBA (David Stern) saying that he hopes the Chicago Bulls win the NBA Championship? Or having a favorite overall? :dunno:
> 
> .


Yup. Completely inappropriate. FIA should impose a gag order on Bernie...or threaten to take away his rights. Somehow, though, it probably fits into The Turd's idea of social responsibility.:eeps:


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

I can't WAIT!

Is Practice 1 on TV? I normally record Friday Practice(Speed) Qualy(Speed) and the race(Speed). Qualy and Race I start recording 30min early and end 1 hour late. Just in case


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> I can't WAIT!
> 
> Is Practice 1 on TV? I normally record Friday Practice(Speed) Qualy(Speed) and the race(Speed). Qualy and Race I start recording 30min early and end 1 hour late. Just in case


I believe so. Should be at 7:00 a.m. (your time) tomorrow.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*News from Singapore*

It rained hard all morning, and rain is forecast for the ENTIRE weekend. 

The BMW pit box was emptied on police orders after a bomb threat.  

The first free practice session starts in two hours - I can't wait to see this! :bigpimp:

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

This is pretty darn cool! And Ecclestone said today that he wants more night races in Asia. Bring them on!

I do think that they need more light at the pit lane entrance - a bit dark there.

Just wait until it starts raining.  :rofl:


.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Update:

Nearly an hour into session 2, the order is Hami, Rosi, Kubi, Kimi and Massi, the last being nearly a second behind Hami.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

So how does Nick get penalized 3 spots for "blocking", but Barrichello is penlized 10k Euros for cutting the pit lane line while pitting? They both took nearly the same line, so I don't understand the difference in penalties.

What a damper on what was a pretty darn good qualification day for the team.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

bknauss said:


> So how does Nick get penalized 3 spots for "blocking", but Barrichello is penlized 10k Euros for cutting the pit lane line while pitting? They both took nearly the same line, so I don't understand the difference in penalties.
> 
> What a damper on what was a pretty darn good qualification day for the team.


Yah, the team could have picked up a lot of points...now he'll probably be taken out by Naki in the first corner. I'm expecting big points for Kubi (8). Should be a fun race.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Piquet sure screwed up this race for anyone who had a legitimate chance of doing well.

Ferrari pit light technology??? Zero!!! That crap should have resulted in a black flag *for the team*. They endangered everyone.


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## BLT (Jan 30, 2006)

It's amazing there was no fuel spilled (an no fire). On the replay you could see the light go green and then quickly turn back to red. What a eff up Ferrari.:thumbdwn:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> That crap should have resulted in a black flag *for the team*. They endangered everyone.


:rofl: Ok! :rofl:

.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Ferrari sort of black flagged themselves anyway, at least out of the points.

Another new street circuit and another fairly boring race. At least this one wasn't nearly as bad as Valencia.

Any chance they'll look at the safety car/closed pits rule in the offseason?


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## rsxtypes7900 (Jul 29, 2008)

berford said:


> Piquet sure screwed up this race for anyone who had a legitimate chance of doing well.
> 
> Ferrari pit light technology??? Zero!!! That crap should have resulted in a black flag *for the team*. They endangered everyone.


I am new to watching racing on TV, and the F1 races have all been moderately interesting to me, probably because I have no other experience to compare it to.

I thought it was crazy how he pulled the fuel hose with him without spilling it.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Fuel was flying out of the hose but it didn't get ignited.

These new street courses will continue to f*** up races because any and all accidents will bring out the safety car because there is no where for a damaged car to go.

Again it is just a matter of luck where you are on the circuit when an accident happens. Again it is just a crap shoot.

F1 suckie suckie.

Screw narrow street circuits.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

berford said:


> Piquet sure screwed up this race for anyone who had a legitimate chance of doing well.
> 
> Ferrari pit light technology??? Zero!!! That crap should have resulted in a black flag *for the team*. They endangered everyone.


Odd.

Black flag for an electronic problem? I believe that is a little harsh.



BLT said:


> It's amazing there was no fuel spilled (an no fire). On the replay you could see the light go green and then quickly turn back to red. What a eff up Ferrari.:thumbdwn:


Sensors control that system IIRC. Nothing Ferrari really did. I believe a lollipop guy should be deployed. Work on practice and do it right.

My Review:

The track is very good. Good venue. Would be great to drive on. The race? Terrible. This race every year will be who gets lucky when the SC comes out. This race just look at the two possiblities for a stop and go penalty, Kubica vs Rosberg.

Then you have that dumb penalty to begin with. If you were JUST about to pit and someone crashes, sucks for you. That is just stupid. You can do nothing wrong and be penalized.

The electronic pit lighting systems need to be abolished. If I remember correctly they go off sensors. It went green and then red. There seems to be no blame. Replace everything I would guess?

Still should be a lot of good racing to be had.

I think bigger more open race tracks should be the goal. Anyone notice that most new purpose built F1 track seem to breed racing like this? Where Quali is more important than the race?


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Odd.
> 
> Black flag for an electronic problem? I believe that is a little harsh.
> 
> ...


Not a black flag for an electronic problem; a black flag for endangering everyone on the pit lane with a fuel hose flailing behind a car.

Couldn't agree more with your other comments regarding the pit lane closure rules.

I still don't understand how Nico gained so much position under the SC and afterwards...and Kubi lost so much. Also, it seemed Nico stayed out more than three laps beyond the point when his penalty was announced. Very odd.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

What ever happened to the days when the safety car p/u'd the lead car and everyone lines up behind it according to position in the race?

The SC should p/u the leader and all cars fall behind in track order. The pits should be closed to entry as soon as an event (crash) happens and not open until the SC goes by the entry. Then anyone that wants can come in. That would be fair to all.

The current system, where the SC comes out when it wants or as fast as it can, is stupidly wrong.

The current system is a joke, a cruel joke on the leading cars. F1 has been changing pit in procedures since the late 80s and its still F*&^% up. 

Heads should roll as a result of this wknd.

Does anyone know what the current pit rules are?


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Ehhhhh

That Black Flag would seem a bit harsh I think. As said they pretty much black flagged themselves with that little excitement


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*Black flag this!*



berford said:


> Not a black flag for an electronic problem; a black flag for endangering everyone on the pit lane with a fuel hose flailing behind a car.


No. Wrong. Nope.

The pit lane speed limit in Singapore is 80km/h, Massa wasn't even doing 50km/h after leaving the box, and came to a stop as soon as there was room at the end of the pit lane. The fuel had already stopped coming out of the hose, and the other crews saw what was happening and got out of the way.

After the Massa problem, Ferrari used the lolipop guy again for all of the pit stops.

No more drama.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

What are the rules regarding the SC coming out and cars pitting? Does anyone here know for sure?


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

I believe Pit Lane is closed except to work on the car and change tires. NO FUEL.

Once it is 'open' you can work on the car, refuel and change tires.

If you pit while it is close and take on fuel you will get a stop and go penalty(10 sec in your box).


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Thanks, but what is the logic of these rules that are sure to mess up a race?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

F1 is screwed up w/o rules like running two tire types in a race and the pit rules.

Lets dump al these constructed attempts to make racing more difficult and just get on with some good racing like in the 80s and 90s. No BS rules and lets dump all the narrow tracks.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> No. Wrong. Nope.
> 
> The pit lane speed limit in Singapore is 80km/h, Massa wasn't even doing 50km/h after leaving the box, and came to a stop as soon as there was room at the end of the pit lane. The fuel had already stopped coming out of the hose, and the other crews saw what was happening and got out of the way.
> 
> ...


Ummm, don't you think the flailing hose was an endangerment to the crews? And the way it looked to me, there were at least two crews who were sprayed with some fuel.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

berford said:


> Ummm, don't you think the flailing hose was an endangerment to the crews? And the way it looked to me, there were at least two crews who were sprayed with some fuel.


Ummm, no. What was more dangerous was Massa almost crashing into Sutil (again) after leaving the box.

The black flag comments are a ridiculous, and Massa was penalized.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

bump for more disagreement.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Well, Berford wanted Räikkönen to be black flagged for having parts of his car falling off in a race earlier this year. But that didn't happen because Ferrari can get away with everything, all of the time.

Perhaps Piquest Jr should be black flagged for being a crappy driver. :dunno: :rofl:

So trivia then for you black flag fans: when was the last time a driver was black flagged during a Formula 1 race? And who was the driver?

Have at it.

And BTW, a team has never been black flagged out of a race before. 


.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Ummm, no. What was more dangerous was Massa almost crashing into Sutil (again) after leaving the box.
> 
> The black flag comments are a ridiculous, and Massa was penalized.
> 
> .


And then again causing Sutil to crash to avoid hitting him as he (Massa) reentered the track on lap 50. Does he have some beef with Sutil, or what.

Peace. I know the suggestion of a black flag was harsh and probably unwarranted. I intended the comment to be sort of tongue-in-cheek. But I do think that the endangerment it caused was deserving of something greater than a drive thru. Any more severe penalty within the race itself would have been moot, of course, but it could have served to send a message. FIA is supposedly all for safety, and there was nothing safe about that.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Well, Berford wanted Räikkönen to be black flagged for having parts of his car falling off in a race earlier this year. But that didn't happen because Ferrari can get away with everything, all of the time. *exactly*
> 
> Perhaps Piquest Jr should be black flagged for being a crappy driver. :dunno: :rofl: *Sato, maybe.*
> 
> ...


See embedded comments.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> And then again causing Sutil to crash to avoid hitting him Does he have some beef with Sutil, or what.
> 
> 
> > Sutil is expendable, hence no flag.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> berford said:
> 
> 
> > And then again causing Sutil to crash to avoid hitting him Does he have some beef with Sutil, or what.
> ...


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

It was a joke so you can laugh now.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> It was a joke so you can laugh now.


Of course it was...but some things aren't joking matters, IMHO.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> Of course it was...but some things aren't joking matters, IMHO.


Same can be said of some people.


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## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

We need more people in here


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Another downer day for this thread.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Another downer day for this thread.


Sorry. I am still angry.

.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

I'm glad to see that LdM agrees with me about the use of the SC and about narrow tracks.



Di Montezemolo critical of F1 show 

By Michele Lostia and Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, September 30th 2008, 09:00 GMT 


Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo says it is 'humiliating' for Formula One that the safety car is needed to spice up the show.

And despite the widespread praise the Singapore Grand Prix received, the Italian was also critical of the Asian street circuit, which hosted Formula One's first night race.

"Unfortunately when we race on tracks where staging a circus or something else would be better, anything can happen, because the spectacle is supplied by the Safety Car," di Montezemolo was quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport. 

"This is humiliating for F1. 

"I want to talk about this with all the other teams in the upcoming weeks."

Di Montezemolo had already said ahead of the race weekend that he believed street circuits such as Singapore or Valencia were bad for the sport.

"I have the impression it will be another one of those letdowns where you cannot overtake, like Valencia," he said last week. "Going forward with these circuits heralds a bad future for Formula One."

Sunday's race, which has been pretty much uneventful until then, was turned upside down thanks to a safety car period that helped Renault driver Fernando Alonso become the seventh different winner this season against all odds.

The race was a disaster for Ferrari, who failed to score any points for the first time since 2006. The team also lost the lead in the constructors' championship while Felipe Massa dropped seven points behind Lewis Hamilton.

Di Montezemolo says, however, that he is convinced Ferrari can bounce back.

"It was a bitter day, but there are three races yet and I have faith in all Ferrari's men, who have always demonstrated they're able to fight to the last metre in every circumstance," di Montezemolo added. "We saw that last year in the final race in Brazil.

"The car is the best, Massa is the best, and I expect Raikkonen to show in these last three races to be the world champion. 

"Ferrari went through times much more difficult than this. We saw throughout the weekend that our car was the best and that Massa did an extraordinary qualifying, demonstrating to be be the driver in the best shape.

"I expect Massa and Raikkonen to always finish first and second in the three remaining races. In any case, ahead of McLaren."

Di Montezemolo also said it was "obvious" that Kimi Raikkonen would have to play a supporting role to Massa now.

"That's obvious, every driver knows he races for the team," he added. 

"We have extraordinary mechanics who may make mistakes once in a while. Obviously the one that did is the most displeased one now, but he deserves us to stay close to him just like to everyone else, because at other times they turned the result around.

"We are the world champions, we are still able to win. Let's see if we don't do it with these exceptional people. You'll see a great reaction at the next race already."


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Flavio Briatore is denying rumors that he ordered Piquet Jr to crash... thus bringing out the SC, and allowing Alonso's pit strategy to win the race for him.  

Whacky stuff!


.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Flavio Briatore is denying rumors that he ordered Piquet Jr to crash... thus bringing out the SC, and allowing Alonso's pit strategy to win the race for him.   Whacky stuff!
> 
> .


Piquet is dead meat. His team is dumping him so anything is possible, even that rumor.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Flavio Briatore is denying rumors that he ordered Piquet Jr to crash... thus bringing out the SC, and allowing Alonso's pit strategy to win the race for him.
> 
> Whacky stuff!
> 
> .


I don't think anyone in their right mind would take that kind of risk with such an unpredicable outcome. Flavio isn't crazy.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Piquet is dead meat. His team is dumping him so anything is possible, even that rumor.


Piquet Jr is a complete failure for Renault, and with Alonso staying there, di Grassi will be the next GP2 hero to give Formula 1 a shot with Renault. Good luck.

The rumor is interesting, especially when you hear what Piquet Jr said on the team radio after the accident.

However, Barrichello ran out of gas on the same lap as Piquet Jr's crash, and the SC would have come out for that as well, seeing as how Barrichello parked his Honda.

Anyway, I have always had the feeing that Piquet Jr is merely a smooth talking pretender, unable to live up to his family name.

Perhaps Montoya can give him some driving tips on turning left and going straighter in NASTRUCK. :rofl:

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Piquet Jr is a complete failure for Renault,
> 
> 
> > He hasn't lived up to his father's stature but that does not make him a complete failure.
> ...


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> He hasn't lived up to his father's stature but that does not make him a complete failure.
> 
> Anyone that can get an F1 seat is no failure


He has been a complete failure *for Renault*.

That has nothing to do with getting a Formula 1 seat, but that wasn't my point.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*F1's Sad Saga Continues*

This is a good example of how f'd up F1 has become.

Teams considering GP weekend shake-up

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, September 30th 2008, 15:53 GMT

Formula One teams are considering a radical shake-up of the race weekend format as part of their plans to revitalize the sport.

The new Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) is evaluating all aspects of Grand Prix racing, and autosport.com has learned that part of the discussions revolve around a total overhaul of the way weekends are structured.

In particular, the focus is on ensuring that Fridays deliver more for fans - and one proposal being floated is for the current extended practice sessions being replaced with a special, shootout-like, timed session for a cash prize.

McLaren F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh, who heads the sporting working group of FOTA, told autosport.com that discussions had already taken place about changing the structure of Fridays.

"We are looking at the whole format of a race weekend," he explained. "At the moment we formulated a Friday testing format, but in reality no one is doing the normal disciplined testing. We are preparing for the race (instead).

"If you give a race team the chance to go on the race track where they are going to race at on the Sunday on the Friday before, then we must have been nuts to think that we will be doing engineering testing. So we are all as bad as one another.

"So we say, is this good value? Does it help the show? Or do you perhaps do something where you say, let's cut it down to 45 minutes only, maybe you give a completely different specification of tyres, a really hard tyre, and you create a mini competition where everyone tries to set the fastest time and you give a million dollars to the winning driver?

"It means there would be something to write about and it introduces the weekend. It is separate from the race. So there are all those sort of ideas about.

"The good thing is that people now realise that we do have to do something and I think (we are having) quite a creative open discussion. And I hope over Japan and Shanghai that we will reach some conclusions.

"We then have to make recommendations to FOTA and that has to then go through the FIA, but hopefully we can do that."


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

That sounds fun and all for the drivers but sounds quite unsafe... Go out on the hardest tires and try to set the fastest lap in 45 minutes?

Let's keep it as it and lose the excessive aero, add slicks, kill the tight street circuits that are new and let's do some racing!


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Isn't that ridiculous?

And its from grown men that make millions of $$$$ each year.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Isn't that ridiculous?
> 
> And its from grown men that make millions of $$$$ each year.


Yup.

Grown men making, perhaps, somewhat less have been working on the wings, as everyone is probably aware. Here's a great technical summary discussion (won't replicate it here in consideration of space):

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft20831.html

It's well worth reading.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Head of Ferrari*

Di Montezemolo has also not calmed down in his criticisms of the Singapore Grand Prix - which he claims deserves no place in F1.

"On Sunday in front of the TV I felt like I was at Disneyworld," he said. "Let's hope that at Singapore in 2009 they'll do fashion catwalks, Disney parades, or something else.

"But certainly not F1. If this is the future of racing, we are sorted... I didn't like Valencia, we'll make ourselves be heard."


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Good. It was a BAD race. The spectacle and the venue were good but the race was poor.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Bruce said:


> I don't think the US tracks aren't wide enough by today's standards....not to mention the runoffs, garages, etc etc etc. Indy is about the only palce that is even close to being up to modern requirements.QUOTE]
> 
> ALMS cars run on Road America and maybe Leguna Seca, not sure on LS. I'm not sure of the ALMs car widths but they look wider than an F1 car.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> ALMS cars run on Road America and maybe Leguna Seca, not sure on LS. I'm not sure of the ALMs car widths but they look wider than an F1 car.
> 
> How do the ALMS manage w/o those facilities?
> 
> I get it about the facilities being poor but then tickets don't start at $ 250 either.


They sure do look wider.

Prima donnas in F1 require better facilities. Do they NEED it? Heck no.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Awesome no CGP in 2009.

LAME!!!


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Awesome no CGP in 2009.
> 
> LAME!!!


And the heads of the CGP weren't informed, either. Well this kills my potential plans of going to see that race next year. The only thing that might make up for this would be the addition of a race in the States, but I'm not exactly holding my breath on that one.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

bknauss said:


> And the heads of the CGP weren't informed, either. Well this kills my potential plans of going to see that race next year. The only thing that might make up for this would be the addition of a race in the States, but I'm not exactly holding my breath on that one.


The full calendar is out for 2009: http://www.formula1.com/races/calendar_preview.html
and there is no North American venue...again.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

* sigh *


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

berford said:


> The full calendar is out for 2009: http://www.formula1.com/races/calendar_preview.html
> and there is no North American venue...again.


That schedule also had the Canadian GP as of several weeks ago. Major dissapointment.

The members on digg.com were irate over this.


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

And on a happier note, its still good to be Sebastian Vettel. I'm shocked I actually saw his face.


----------



## bjf123 (Oct 6, 2005)

We had already started planning to go to Montreal next year. I guess 2009 will be the first year we won't make it to a GP in the last 10 years. This just plain sucks.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Awesome no CGP in 2009.
> 
> LAME!!!


Interesting.

I am happy that Ecclestone dumped Montreal. No San Marino GP, and soon Paul Ricard is history. This is all good because I hate those tracks!

Add Qatar, get rid of Valencia, go back to Kayalama in SA, and wait for the new track under way in Moscow. Yes!

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

More non-sense on Vettel.......

Williams tips Vettel as next big star


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*The Truth.*



franka said:


> More non-sense on Vettel.......
> 
> Williams tips Vettel as next big star


Within 5 years, Vettel will be driving for Ferrari, and win the Driver's World Championship. At least once.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Here is another headline from today...

Mosley: Costs threaten F1's future

Well no s*&t *******. 

The constant engine and chassis changes the FIA keeps making is costing everyone dearly. On top of that the teams are losing their best guys due to the engine freeze.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Within 5 years, Vettel will be driving for Ferrari, and win the Driver's World Championship. At least once.
> 
> .


I guess we'll have to start the 2013 F1 thread to keep track of Vetti's progress...or not.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> i guess we'll have to start the 2013 f1 thread to keep track of vetti's progress...or not.:d


+1


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Patrick said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I am happy that Ecclestone dumped Montreal. No San Marino GP, and soon Paul Ricard is history. This is all good because I hate those tracks!
> 
> ...


They will just keep removing tracks in venues that have history I guess and go to new tracks that have poor racing


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Bernie will go where he gets paid well.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> They will just keep removing tracks in venues that have history I guess and go to new tracks that have poor racing


No and no.

San Marino was a terrible track, offered a completely boring race, just like Paul Ricard still does for a year. The only "fun" thing about Montreal was knowing that someone would have a huge wreck at some point.

New tracks like Turkey, Shanghai, Bahrain and Malaysia are fantastic. Tilke at least has some clue about what he is doing. That said, if designed the Valencia circuit, he probably wants to shoot himself.

.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

I am more upset with killing off the history of F1. 

"Oh you won't build your grand stands out of pure platinum?"

"That will simply not be possible"

"Well then we can't race here anymore"

"We have raced here for 45 years"

"Platinum grandstands or no race"

Geesh


I never said all new tracks are bad. However the last 2 new ones aren't too stellar.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I am more upset with killing off the history of F1. QUOTE]
> 
> Me too. But the new face of F1 is coming, like it or not.
> 
> ...


----------



## Scott_H (Feb 12, 2003)

Patrick said:


> The only "fun" thing about Montreal was knowing that someone would have a huge wreck at some point.


Actually, one of the 'fun' things about Montreal was going to it. Fantastic venue for the average (not corporate) North American fan.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Mosley: Costs threaten F1's future 

By Matt Beer Wednesday, October 8th 2008, 08:21 GMT 


FIA president Max Mosley has warned that Formula One will be "in serious difficulty" if it does not take drastic cost-cutting measures by 2010.

Yesterday the FIA reiterated that if the newly-formed Formula One Teams' Association did not come up with proposals to significantly reduce the sport's costs, the governing body would enforce its own measures, and Mosley believes as many as three present teams could be in jeopardy unless steps are rapidly taken.

"It has become apparent, long before the present economic difficulties, that Formula One was unsustainable," Mosley told the BBC.

"Very crudely expressed, one of the teams at the back of the grid cannot possibly hope to raise more than - including the money they get from Bernie (Ecclestone) - say 40 million Euro, let's say £30-35 million, which in the real world is a huge sum of money, but that's the most they can raise. To compete today, they need two or three times that and even then they're at the back of the grid.

"You can't run a business where the outgoings are two to three times the income. Not for very long. It depends at the moment on millionaires - or billionaires, we don't have millionaires any more - millionaires subsidising them, people like Vijay Mallya of Kingfisher or Dietrich Mateschitz of Red Bull. Without them, those teams wouldn't be there.

"We've already got two gaps, we're likely to lose two or three more of the independent teams. Formula One cannot continue like that, that's been obvious for some time.

"At the moment we've got 20 cars. If we lost two teams we'd have 16, three teams 14. It then would cease to be a credible grid. 

"Some of the manufacturers may be in difficulty now as well, because if you look at their share prices, their profitability, their sales, the days when they could just toss out 100, 200, 300 million Euro a year, which is what Formula One costs those big companies, I think they're finished. I really think it's a serious situation.

"If we can't get this done for 2010, we would be in serious difficulty. I think we can survive through 2009, but if we don't get it done in 2010, we may be in serious problems."

Mosley believes the key is reduce expenditure on engines and gearboxes at the earliest opportunity.

"There are various things we can do, but the most obvious would be to reduce the cost of the drivetrain," he said.

"At present, if you can believe this, the engine and gearbox together, for an independent team, is upwards of 30 million Euro a year. That could be done for probably five per cent of that cost without the person in the grandstand noticing any difference at all.

"Even those big spenders, if they're given the opportunity to save 100 or 200 million Euro a year, they'll do so. And we've got various means of making sure they don't spend the money, but it does need some draconian changes."

......................................................................................................................


As long as you have large corporations involved, like BMW and Mercedes and large sponsors, big bucks will be spent. After drastic engine and chassis rule changes and 1 or 2 wind tunnels per team and expensive tracks they wake up to costs. 

What F1 needs is a new leader and a constant set of rules. Other classes of racing are doing well with a lot less money.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Changing the rules every year is not exactly helping cost roflmao


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Scott_H said:


> Actually, one of the 'fun' things about Montreal was going to it. Fantastic venue for the average (not corporate) North American fan.


No argument about the venue.

My point was more about the fans that actually were interested to know what is happening during the race while watching on TV. Montreal was a yawner.

.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Changing the rules every year is not exactly helping cost roflmao


That has been discussed a few times in these threads over the last few years.

That, and the supposed safety issue.

The FIA is clueless.

.


----------



## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

Patrick said:


> That has been discussed a few times in these threads over the last few years.
> 
> That, and the supposed safety issue.
> 
> ...


There you are. You are wanted elsewhere.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> The FIA is clueless.
> 
> .


The Turd lives on.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

The Turd and Ecclestone have a vision for the near future of Formula 1:

Two engines per car, for the entire 19-20 race season, starting in 2010.

All in the name of saving money.

Where is the GPMA these days?


.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

Patrick said:


> The Turd and Ecclestone have a vision for the near future of Formula 1:
> 
> Two engines per car, for the entire 19-20 race season, starting in 2010.
> 
> ...


So all the cars will have to be powered by BMW M30's which rev to a ceiling of 6000 rpms haha


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

They haven't announced that the new engines will be V6s or I4s yet, but I am sure that is coming....because 4 and 6 cylinder engines HAVE to be cheaper than V8s or V10s.  :wow: :slap:


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Another FIA plan headline.....


F1 News - Oct 9th, 10:07 GMT
Teams would welcome standard parts


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Bruce said:


> They haven't announced that the new engines will be V6s or I4s yet, but I am sure that is coming....because 4 and 6 cylinder engines HAVE to be cheaper than V8s or V10s.  :wow: :slap:


Most of the cost of a completely new engine is in the overhead cost, all the R&D. By comparison the physical parts are cheap.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> Most of the cost of a completely new engine is in the overhead cost, all the R&D. By comparison the physical parts are cheap.


sarcasm Frank, sarcasm

oh yeah Frank...we still have spots open in our DE at Eagles Canyon next weekend.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Bruce said:


> we still have spots open in our DE at Eagles Canyon next weekend.


you will have to get busy then and fill in those spots


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Ecclestone wants standard F1 engine 

By Jonathan Noble Thursday, October 9th 2008, 07:39 GMT 


Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone is pushing for the sport to introduce a standard engine as soon as 2010.

Amid a renewed drive to drastically reduce costs, with FIA president Max Mosley warning the sport must act now if it is to survive beyond next year, Ecclestone suggests the use of a single specification of engine is the best way forward.

Speaking to The Times, Ecclestone said: "The thing I am most excited about is pushing pushing and pushing the homologated engine idea.

"The new engine will be equalised and there will only be two engine changes a year, so costs are going to dramatically come down, and I mean dramatically."

According to The Times, teams would use just two engines per car each season. 

Each power unit would be built to a standard specification by manufacturers, who would also be able to badge it with their own name. Independent teams would have access to the engines through an independent contractor.

..........................................................................................


This sounds like contracting for the fiberglass horses for a kiddy carousel.

The various auto mfgrs are in F1 to show their engineering talent. Not to build to a spec.

Bernie loves pushing and pushing the homologated idea. That is not what the mfgrs want. Sure it will cut costs but it will also kill F1.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> you will have to get busy then and fill in those spots


arm chair racer


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

More than you know


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

That sounds like a terrible idea...

My idea that seems to be the best and most sporting is to have a set of rules and you build an engine. If BMW figures out how to use the rules to get 20 extra HP then so what? Good for them. Having a spec engine is just against what F1 is. Sometimes there are faster cars on track and maybe they go around you...


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> That sounds like a terrible idea...
> 
> My idea that seems to be the best and most sporting is to have a set of rules and you build an engine. If BMW figures out how to use the rules to get 20 extra HP then so what? Good for them. Having a spec engine is just against what F1 is. Sometimes there are faster cars on track and maybe they go around you...


I think the point is x amount of horsepower is easy. x+20 hp costs $Y million dollars. x+40 hp costs $YYY million dollars. Ferrari, McLaren, BMW have $YYY million dollars. The lower tier tems don't. When the amount of sponsorship dollars decreases you will see the lower tier teams leaving F1 leaving and even shorter grid than it was 15 years ago. 14 teams on the grid doesn't make good racing.

If I wanted to watch spec racing, I'd watch NASCAR. However, I do enjoy watching cars go round the track that are similar to what I can buy for the street (but F1 is clearly not Duh- the appeal of F1 is to see what can ultimately be done but can be hard to sustain from a financial standpoint). Can't wait to see how the ALMS turns out next year....Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Audi?, Panoz? all competing in a single GT class....should make for some good racing.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Bruce said:


> Can't wait to see how the ALMS turns out next year....Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Audi?, Panoz? all competing in a single GT class....should make for some good racing.


Honda will be joining ALMS LMP1 in 2009. I will have more on that tomorrow.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*My oh my...*

Who is running this show? :dunno:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20924.html

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*From Toyota*

See the last line...

The FIA issued a statement on Monday saying that it was proceeding with the standard engine plans, having received a number of enquiries from interested parties about the tender. Autosport.com understands, however, that FOTA members have all agreed not to apply for the supply deal.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> See the last line...
> 
> The FIA issued a statement on Monday saying that it was proceeding with the standard engine plans, having received a number of enquiries from interested parties about the tender. Autosport.com understands, however, that FOTA members have all agreed not to apply for the supply deal.


It will not happen.

Period.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Patrick said:


> It will not happen.
> 
> Period. .


Then sir, what will happen?


----------



## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

Patrick said:


> Who is running this show? :dunno:
> 
> http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20924.html
> 
> .


Dubya....teeee.....ef

The drugs must be really good in that circle. Or maybe senility has set in early? :tsk:


----------



## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

franka said:


> I would agree with that when Schumi, the master of cheat, was on board with Big Red. I don't believe Kimi would do that on purpose, seriously, unless the situation was thrown in front of him. I believe that he would not be specifically looking to knock out Lewis. But if he did knock out Lewis and Massa won Massa would owe Kimi big time. :thumbup:
> 
> Massa I'm not so sure about. Sometimes he comes across as very sincere but other times..?.... well.....who knows? :rofl:


I agree wrt KR, but the team might ask that of him anyways.

All bets are off on Massa, though. Japan pretty much showed how low he would stoop.


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Then sir, what will happen?


Power struggle. Same crap that we have seen before.

Keep in mind that there is no current Concorde Agreement.

This will get ugly.

.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

*Like Pat said*

F1 News - Oct 27th, 19:16 GMT
Ferrari in quit threat over standard engine
Ferrari have issued a bombshell warning that they will reconsider their participation in Formula One if the FIA presses ahead with the introduction of a standard engine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Patrick said:


> Who is running this show? :dunno:
> 
> http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20924.html
> 
> .


*Let's see, that would be: €, £, $, ¥. The native language of Bernie E.*


----------



## cenotaph (Dec 19, 2001)

Patrick said:


> Who is running this show? :dunno:
> 
> http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20924.html
> 
> .



While the specific plan of awarding medals is nuts, I do like the idea of somehow making wins more important. IMO, a more sane way of doing this would be reducing the number of points paying finishing positions, and adjusting the points earned to favor winning more than the current system does. Of course, this system would be much more workable if it was easier to pass on track.


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Surprisingly slow week for news considering the title chase along with it being the last race of the season.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

They are all in their team bunker making war plans.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Not a minute too soon:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3659889#post3659889


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

F1 News - Oct 29th, 13:13 GMT
Montoya tells Lewis: Steer clear of Massa
Former McLaren race-winner Juan Pablo Montoya has advised world championship leader Lewis Hamilton to keep away from Ferrari's Felipe Massa on the track in this weekend's Brazilian Grand Prix title decider.


----------



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> F1 News - Oct 29th, 13:13 GMT
> Montoya tells Lewis: Steer clear of Massa
> Former McLaren race-winner Juan Pablo Montoya has advised world championship leader Lewis Hamilton to keep away from Ferrari's Felipe Massa on the track in this weekend's Brazilian Grand Prix title decider.


Can't imagine why?


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> F1 News - Oct 29th, 13:13 GMT
> Montoya tells Lewis: Steer clear of Massa
> Former McLaren race-winner Juan Pablo Montoya has advised world championship leader Lewis Hamilton to keep away from Ferrari's Felipe Massa on the track in this weekend's Brazilian Grand Prix title decider.


Montoya is such a fat wimp. :tsk:

If Hamilton is the next coming of Spoonface, he might consider making sure that Massa cannot win. :eeps:

I would enjoy seeing Massa and Hamilton have another duel this coming weekend.

If Hamilton could survive a tussle with Massa for the WDC, and without another major meltdown ("Oops, wrong button!") like a year ago, then congrats to Hamilton.

And of course, McLaren has to push. The Constructor's title is on the line as well.

I am looking forward to the whole weekend!

.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 5, 2006)

I am moving I HOPE Comcast does me right and get everything hooked up! Will be watching F1 from the floor haha


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

franka said:


> F1 News - Oct 29th, 13:13 GMT
> Montoya tells Lewis: Steer clear of Massa
> .


Sorry, but he lost any weight to anything he says once he moved to NASCAR. "Which way do I turn at the next bend? Left? Oh yea!"


----------



## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Two hours to go... :thumbup:





.


----------



## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Patrick said:


> Two hours to go... :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> .


About 15 laps to go, and thumbs up is not my feeling so far. Just another overly long parade lap.


----------



## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

franka said:


> Glock was a gift from heaven. W/o Glock slidding back in those few minutes Massa would be king.
> 
> It was so close they both should have been named winners, both champions.


And without the FIA playing favorites earlier in the year, Brazil would have been moot. As you said earlier in the season - coulda, shoulda, woulda...doesn't change the results.

I feel bad for Massa because he made a herculean effort on this race , but I'm still pissed about him getting away with pushing Lewis in Japan.


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

e46Christian said:


> I feel bad for Massa because he made a herculean effort on this race , but I'm still pissed about him getting away with pushing Lewis in Japan.


As a saw it several time s at home on tape Lewis purposely drove to the left side of the pavement to make it more difficult for Massa to get back on the track.

And Massa had no choice but to hit him due to Massa's momentum and being on the dirt

If Lewis went to the right side of the track that would be a bit longer path and it would let Massa onto the left side of the track, and Lewis was not about to give him that.

Lewis cut the chicane as tight as he could probably thinking that Massa would stay on the dirt


----------



## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

franka said:


> As a saw it several time s at home on tape Lewis purposely drove to the left side of the pavement to make it more difficult for Massa to get back on the track.
> 
> And Massa had no choice but to hit him.
> 
> If Lewis went to the right side of the track that would be a bit longer path and it would let Massa onto the left side of the track, and Lewis was not about to give him that.


And this was different than what KR did how?


----------



## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

e46Christian said:


> And this was different than what KR did how?


???? :dunno:


----------



## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

franka said:


> ???? :dunno:


Kimi's pass at Spa.


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## bknauss (Jan 2, 2008)

Glock was on drys, and that's the end of the story. Look at how badly Lewis was struggling on wets during that last lap. Albeit he was pushing very hard to keep up with Vettel, but I can't imagine what Timo was going through.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

e46Christian said:


> Kimi's pass at Spa.


I'm not sure if I saw any of that race. Pls describe the situation, I may recall it.

Letting Massa past? Is that it?


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Q & A with Timo Glock 

Monday, November 3rd 2008, 17:19 GMT 


Conducted and provided by Toyota's press office. 

Q. How did the rain at the end of the race affect your strategy?

Timo Glock: In the final laps we saw that we had the opportunity to make up some places due to the rain. It started to rain lightly on parts of the circuit with around six laps to go and at that stage everyone was on dry tyres.

We took the decision to stay out on dry tyres even though the intensity of the rain was increasing we were sure we could make up positions when the other cars pitted for wet weather tyres and because it was only on the last couple of laps that the wet tyre was superior. We stayed out and I was up to fourth but it was not easy in those conditions in the last laps. 

Q. What was it like in wet conditions with dry tyres?

TG: It was not so bad until the final lap when the rain really began to come down very heavily and it was just impossible. It was so difficult to just keep the car on the track because it was very wet and the car was basically undriveable in those conditions. I was sliding everywhere, with absolutely no grip at all. 

Q. Were you taking it easy on the final lap?

TG: Absolutely not! It was completely the opposite; the final lap was one of the hardest laps I have done in Formula 1 because there was no grip at all and on dry tyres it was almost impossible to keep the car on track. I was pushing really hard to keep fourth place and if you look at the lap times I was actually faster than Jarno on the final lap and he was the only other car on dry tyres at that stage. 

Q. Was it the right decision to stay on dry tyres?

TG: Absolutely no doubt about it. We were running seventh before the rain came and we would have probably finished there if it had been totally dry. Instead we finished sixth so that shows the strategy was the right one. 

Q. Did you realise the significance of Lewis Hamilton fighting with you on the final lap?

TG: To be honest I was racing for Toyota and my place which is the correct thing to do. I didn't even know that Lewis was directly behind me. The team told me that Sebastian Vettel was catching me and they kept me updated on his position but I was concentrating so hard on keeping the car on the track. I didn't even know that Lewis had overtaken me until after the race. I was passed by three or four cars on the final lap and it was not easy to keep track of what was going on. 

Q. This is the end of your first season with Panasonic Toyota Racing, how do you assess the year?

TG: It has been very positive for me. At the start of the season I set myself a target of scoring 20 points and in the end I have finished with 25 and a podium in Budapest, so I am very happy with that. The first few races were a bit difficult as I was adjusting to a new car and a new team but we all worked really hard to improve and we made good progress. 

Finishing fourth in Canada was a big boost for me and the team but the turning point was Hockenheim, where I was really competitive in the race until the mechanical problem. After that I was fighting high up the grid in pretty much every race and we scored a lot of points. But this is only the first step and next year I want to achieve a lot more, so we are already working hard to make another step.


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## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

franka said:


> I'm not sure if I saw any of that race. Pls describe the situation, I may recall it.
> 
> Letting Massa past? Is that it?


No, not that - though I think that's a stupid rule to begin with.

It's the incident where KR forced LH off the track, thereby leaving him no option but to cut the chicane or run into him.


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

bknauss said:


> Glock was on drys, and that's the end of the story. Look at how badly Lewis was struggling on wets during that last lap. Albeit he was pushing very hard to keep up with Vettel, but I can't imagine what Timo was going through.


He was going through the same thing as everyone by Nick was going through at the end of Spa. I have a feeling that's why nearly everyone changed to wets as quickly as they did. If my observation was correct, the Bimmers were the first in when the rain came again in Brazil. (I suppose Mario thought he could pull off another Spa if others stayed on drys.) But everyone else (except Toyota) knew they could add 20+ seconds a lap in the last several laps if they didn't change, not to mention jeapordizing driver safety. You could say it was good luck for Hami that he was able to pass Glock so easily, but you could also say that he would have gotten to that point just as easily if Glock had pitted for a tire change.

Congrats to Hami...great season with lots of mistakes made by everyone. He made one point less mistakes than Massa. He deserves the championship.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

e46Christian said:


> It's the incident where KR forced LH off the track, thereby leaving him no option but to cut the chicane or run into him.


I have a vague recollection of that incident. Can't really comment on it. But if Kimi pushed Lewis off the track all I can say is 'you go Kimi'. :rofl:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

berford said:


> You could say it was good luck for Hami that he was able to pass Glock so easily,QUOTE]
> 
> Yes Glock could have easily taken Lewis out while he was slidding all over the track. And it would have been a simple racing incident and Massa would be wearing the crown.
> 
> It had me jumping and yelling and I was alone!!!


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## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

franka said:


> I have a vague recollection of that incident. Can't really comment on it. But if Kimi pushed Lewis off the track all I can say is 'you go Kimi'. :rofl:


"vague recollection" of the biggest incident of the year?


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> I have a vague recollection of that incident. Can't really comment on it. But if Kimi pushed Lewis off the track all I can say is 'you go Kimi'. :rofl:


Can't comment on it? You did comment, it seems...in a weird sort of way. You may think that's funny. I can't agree.:tsk:


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## e46Christian (Feb 27, 2003)

franka said:


> I have a vague recollection of that incident. Can't really comment on it. But if Kimi pushed Lewis off the track all I can say is 'you go Kimi'. :rofl:


Kimi did go....right into a wall. :rofl:


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Are you talking about when Hamilton had major brain fade and braked way late pushing Kimi and others off the track in the first turn? 

Is that the incident? :dunno:


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

franka said:


> Are you talking about when Hamilton had major brain fade and braked way late pushing Kimi and others off the track in the first turn?
> 
> Is that the incident? :dunno:


Better get over here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3676155#post3676155

You wouldn't want to miss your chance to bash Hamilton early and often.


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## franka (Jan 23, 2006)

Nothing on that link about Hammy or Kimi or anything we are discussing. 

Please get your links correct when you are attempting to bash me.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

*What?*



e46Christian said:


> It's the incident where KR forced LH off the track, thereby leaving him no option but to cut the chicane or run into him.


Do you mean at Spa?

When Hamilton tried to pass Räikkönen by braking late on the outside of the right hand turn leading to the chicane before the straight over the start/finish line? :dunno:

Räikkönen forced Hamilton off the track?

WTF?

If Räikkönen is IN FRONT of someone, on the line into the turn, how can he force that other driver off the track? Especially in a chicane?

:loco:

.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

franka said:


> Are you talking about when Hamilton had major brain fade and braked way late pushing Kimi and others off the track in the first turn?
> 
> Is that the incident? :dunno:


Can't be. Hamilton only got a drive-thru penalty for that incident.

.


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