# Stick Shift on the way out?



## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> Good point, I should give up playing soccer, cause the pros on TV are a lot more skilled than I - I'll just watch them instead.


Poor example.

Better would be to say this: If I give you a car with an SMG-like transmission that shifts perfectly and lets you drive to your full potential... and put you on Lime Rock Park's track... you'd enjoy the hell out of yourself. But then if I put Boris Said in the same car on the same track, he'd pull faster lap times than you. Does that mean he enjoyed the car more than you? Probably not. He's just the better driver.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

zcasavant said:


> Ok, I'll buy that. Now, why was SMG introduced? For performance reasons or to satisfy the louts that are too lazy to shift?


SMG was a race-bread technology. It is used currently in many forms of autosports, but started in F1 I believe. Why is it used? Because it is better than any race driver rowing his own.

Ask MS or JPM (F1), Martin or Duval (WRC) or other drivers if they enjoy their races less now that their cars are equipped with SMG than when they had manual transmissions.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> This is not a dig at you Obsession.
> 
> There are enthusiasts who buy a 325i auto and order the sports package, so they can drive fast in corners on the way to work. Then there are enthusiasts who like to heel & toe at every exit ramp, and keep fixing up their 20 year old sports cars cause they think new cars are no fun to drive. SMG is for the first type of enthusiast.


No, I'd have to say SMG-style transmissions are for the "3rd" type of enthusiast.

Okay... I guess what I'm saying is flinging this thread off on a different tangent. I agree there will always be people who truly enjoy driving a stick more than any other type of car. Granted. I give you that. Just like there are people who like to fly vintage WWII aircraft, and hate anything modern.

But bugs me is seeing the same thread over and over about people who bemoan the demise of the manual transmission. It's going to happen. Don't blame people who prefer autos, because it's probably not their fault. The SMG is the next evolution of transmission. It is more efficient than any manual transmission. Are they perfect yet? No. Give them time.

I can just see it now. Bimmerfest-2183. Threads about how people hate the new Faster-Than-Light BMWs because unless you are placed in cryogenic freeze for the 87 years it takes to get there, it just ain't the same!


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

OBS3SSION said:


> Poor example.
> 
> Better would be to say this: If I give you a car with an SMG-like transmission that shifts perfectly and lets you drive to your full potential... and put you on Lime Rock Park's track... you'd enjoy the hell out of yourself. But then if I put Boris Said in the same car on the same track, he'd pull faster lap times than you. Does that mean he enjoyed the car more than you? Probably not. He's just the better driver.


I've been to LRP 3 times, and pulling off my own heel & toe downshifts is a hell of a lot more satisfying than pushing a button. I'm not racing for money, I'm there for fun, so I don't care if SMG would gain me a few 10ths, that's not the point of being there. I'm sure having a computer steer for me would be faster too - would that be fun?


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

OBS3SSION said:


> but started in F1 I believe. Why is it used? Because it is better than any race driver rowing his own.


I thought it was becasue they were worried about the cost factor reducing competitors, and blowing an engine on a downshift is expensive.

"Better" is a very general word.


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## zcasavant (Jun 26, 2002)

The Roadstergal said:


> I thought it was becasue they were worried about the cost factor reducing competitors, and blowing an engine on a downshift is expensive.
> 
> "Better" is a very general word.


Exactly. Just because it's new and better-performing doesn't necessarily mean it improves the experience.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

OBS3SSION said:


> No, I'd have to say SMG-style transmissions are for the "3rd" type of enthusiast.
> 
> Okay... I guess what I'm saying is flinging this thread off on a different tangent. I agree there will always be people who truly enjoy driving a stick more than any other type of car. Granted. I give you that. Just like there are people who like to fly vintage WWII aircraft, and hate anything modern.


It's not that they prefer driving an old car with stick to a new car with SMG - just that the same car would be more involving with a stick.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

OBS3SSION said:


> Bullpoop!!! Don't blame me for the demise of the stick. I've owned my share of 5-speeds. Up until my 330, I hated autos. My 330's Steptronic is an acceptable compromise for me. I would have gotten SMG, but it wasn't available at the time of my order.
> 
> Do I like my slushie's lag and power drain? No way in hell.
> Do I use my slushie's manual mode? 99.9% of the time.
> ...


Heck yeah I hold you totally responsible. 

You like the car to do your shifting I prefer to do it myself.

No matter. The direction BMW and most high end carmakers are going the driving skills will be moving away from the driver, and a computer will seamlessly smooth out the rough edges of driving a car.

Computer controlled this... computer controlled that... who the hell needs it.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> Heck yeah I hold you totally responsible.
> 
> You like the car to do your shifting I prefer to do it myself.
> 
> ...


Art ... maybe you are a very skilled driver and I like to think I am as well but there are still times when my a** is saved by those computers. I've seen that yellow flashing light on my dash go off too many times to be sure I* could have* handled it. Don't forget even the best driver's get into accidents ... I am all for these new computers especially since the newer versions are not too intrusive and they allow me to have my fun.

BTW I do agree that *Obsession* is totally responsible for the manual going away :supdude:


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Dawg90 said:


> It's not that they prefer driving an old car with stick to a new car with SMG - just that the same car would be more involving with a stick.


I've never driven an SMG vehicle though I would love to so I can't tell you if I can concur with you but from what I have read the SMG is very involved.

I only know 2 modes of driving, manual and automatic ... obsession is right on target that SMG is a 3rd type.

It almost boggles me because I know when I've driven step, in *normal *driving I don't want to shift because sometimes I forget I am in manual mode. 
When in a manual transmission it is a natural feeling to shift and of course most of the time I do it without even realizing it.

Anyway my point is SMG is a different mode of driving and I think it needs to be learned though not quite as hard as a manual ... is it more fun ? I think we all need to spend a lot of time behind the wheel to decide and I'm not talking just a test drive either. I have a feeling I would get bored with it because I know I get bored manually shifting steptronics with either the paddles or the lever unless I am in the zone of performance driving which is usually only 5% of my actually driving time anyway.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

AF-RX8 said:


> Art ... maybe you are a very skilled driver and I like to think I am as well but there are still times when my a** is saved by those computers. I've seen that yellow flashing light on my dash go off too many times to be sure I* could have* handled it. Don't forget even the best driver's get into accidents ... I am all for these new computers especially since the newer versions are not too intrusive and they allow me to have my fun.
> 
> BTW I do agree that *Obsession* is totally responsible for the manual going away :supdude:


This true to an extent, but the more the car does for the driver the less skilled and more inattentive the driver becomes IMO. And with the high level of false driving security in the newer cars I have noticed an increase in very unsafe drivers.

I do appreciate the new technologies of air bags and computer design crash safe bodies but I can live with out computer aided driving.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

AF-RX8 said:


> Art ... maybe you are a very skilled driver and I like to think I am as well but there are still times when my a** is saved by those computers. I've seen that yellow flashing light on my dash go off too many times to be sure I* could have* handled it. Don't forget even the best driver's get into accidents ... I am all for these new computers especially since the newer versions are not too intrusive and they allow me to have my fun.
> 
> BTW I do agree that *Obsession* is totally responsible for the manual going away :supdude:


It's all about choice - we should have the choice of turning off DSC, and shifting for ourselves. No one is arguing that SMG shouldn't exist.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

F1 drivers use sequential transmissions cause lap times, not fun, are the point of pro racing. For enthusiasts, it's not about the lap time. An Accord V6 auto will turn a lap faster than a Miata - but on track days you see tons of Miatas, and no Accords.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

To throw another comment into this thread...

Driving pleasure can be defined by many different people many different ways. Some enjoy the act of shifting, using the clutch, rev-matching, etc. Others, like me, enjoy the sensation of taking the corners, and feeling the road. For me, choosing my gear is mandatory. But doing it with a flick of a lever and getting a perfect shift is fine with me. For people like me, having to take concentration away from the road to shift gears detracts from the driving experience. Unlike some other people, my shifting skills are not so honed as to have become subconscious.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

AF-RX8 said:


> BTW I do agree that *Obsession* is totally responsible for the manual going away :supdude:


Darnit! Nobody was supposed to know that I am the CEO of the World Automaker's Future Technology Planning Board.


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## nowonder (Dec 4, 2002)

I think stick shifts are an endangered species. Not because people are too lazy or not interested... But because entry level cars no longer have them available (or soon won't). Few people are crazy enough to buy a new BMW with a transmission they don't know how to work.

--nw


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

I don't think anyone here really cares what other people choose for their transmission. Drivers like me that prefer owning a manual BMW are a little concerned that manual transmissions may be eventually discontinued on most if not all BMW U.S. cars.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

*Does anyone know the figures of Auto vs manual in Europe ? *

It would be interesting to know as this would definitely be an indication if the manual is going away.


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## ProcyonB (Aug 16, 2004)

Emission said:


> "One more generation and you'll probably have people who have absolutely no idea what a three-pedal car does," said Bill Visnic, senior technical editor of Ward's AutoWorld, an automotive trade magazine. Source: The Detroit News


There are cars with three pedals? :dunno: Why would they even offer such an oddity when we can just use steptronic?


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

OBS3SSION said:


> To throw another comment into this thread...
> 
> Driving pleasure can be defined by many different people many different ways. Some enjoy the act of shifting, using the clutch, rev-matching, etc. Others, like me, enjoy the sensation of taking the corners, and feeling the road. For me, choosing my gear is mandatory. But doing it with a flick of a lever and getting a perfect shift is fine with me. For people like me, having to take concentration away from the road to shift gears detracts from the driving experience. Unlike some other people, my shifting skills are not so honed as to have become subconscious.


That's fine, just don't take away our choice of transmissions - less choice is never good.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

AF-RX8 said:


> *Does anyone know the figures of Auto vs manual in Europe ? *
> 
> It would be interesting to know as this would definitely be an indication if the manual is going away.


UK was mentioned in the article, assume rest of europe is similiar :dunno:

"In the United Kingdom, automatic transmission installations are on pace to reach 15 percent of all models, up from 13.5 percent five years ago,"


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

It's amazing how the US and Europe are almost opposite in manual vs. auto. Just goes to show how lazy Americans are and how badly they drive.

Interesting contradiction: Americans must have our cars because it is a "right" not a privilege  and we must have our independence... but we're not willing to learn how to drive well, let alone a manual.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

OBS3SSION said:


> It's amazing how the US and Europe are almost opposite in manual vs. auto. Just goes to show how lazy Americans are and how badly they drive.
> 
> Interesting contradiction: Americans must have our cars because it is a "right" not a privilege  and we must have our independence... but we're not willing to learn how to drive well, let alone a manual.


So true. :tsk:


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

OBS3SSION said:


> Interesting contradiction: Americans must have our cars because it is a "right" not a privilege  and we must have our independence... but we're not willing to learn how to drive well, let alone a manual.


Let's be honest though: driving is almost a necessity in most places in America, and also Americans take most things for granted anyway.  Not really a contradiction and not really interesting.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

FenPhen said:


> Let's be honest though: driving is almost a necessity in most places in America, and also Americans take most things for granted anyway.  Not really a contradiction and not really interesting.


If you live in Chicago and NY it is not.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

Artslinger said:


> If you live in Chicago and NY it is not.


true in NYC and some parts of the 5 boro's but in Long Island and Upsate NY which is HUGE you definitely need a car ...


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

OBS3SSION said:


> It's amazing how the US and Europe are almost opposite in manual vs. auto. Just goes to show how lazy Americans are and how badly they drive.
> 
> Interesting contradiction: Americans must have our cars because it is a "right" not a privilege  and we must have our independence... but we're not willing to learn how to drive well, let alone a manual.


Not really getting this one ... you need to know how to drive a manual to drive well :dunno: I couldn't disagree more & am surprised you think this as well being that you have a steptronic and could appreciate the benefits of a great Automatic ...

One other thing ... Europeans being better driver's ... is this just an assumption or is there actually fact behind this ?

The biggest difference I know of is that European's are taught to keep to the right and pass on the left and now that I think about it, is this taught to ALL europeans or is it something taught in only some of the countries like Germany ?


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

I didn't mean to imply that you need to drive a manual to know how to drive well. I think what I meant was more to the point that "lazy" Americans do as little as possible to learn how to drive. Learning manual is one more thing that average Joe American doesn't want to deal with. He just wants his "right" to drive. To get in his car and push the go pedal. Doesn't matter if he sucks at driving.

I think the US in general has a piss-poor mass transit system because over the decades we have been too stubborn to accept mass transit as an acceptable mode of transportation. Our impatience, our independence, and our egos demand that we drive ourselves. This leads to more congestion, deteriorating roads and social disorder.

This will never change here in the US until the licensing standards are made as tough as they are in Europe. Plus... Europeans pay a heck of a lot more for the PRIVILEGE of driving... in taxes and fuel costs. Hence, they tend to respect their privilege more than we do. Besides, we just hand licenses out of bubblegum machines and we can buy our cheap cars and cheap gas and go and cause havoc on the highways.

I drive a Step for the convenience factor of it. If I was more coordinated, you bet your ass I'd be in a manual. But I was tired of mis-shifts, lurching and assorted aggravations of a manual. I use the Step as an acceptable compromise. I would have loved if the SMG had been available 6 months sooner.

Does this make me a bad driver? I don't think so. I can drive both (but with occasional grinds or lurching starts from stop in a manual.) Am I a great driver? I don't know. But I'm sure I'm better than Joe American who's out there causing havoc by driving like an arsehole and not following any of the rules (they don't apply to him... like red lights, lane markings, etc.)


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

OBS3SSION said:


> I didn't mean to imply that you need to drive a manual to know how to drive well. I think what I meant was more to the point that "lazy" Americans do as little as possible to learn how to drive. Learning manual is one more thing that average Joe American doesn't want to deal with. He just wants his "right" to drive. To get in his car and push the go pedal. Doesn't matter if he sucks at driving.


Do you have any statistics to prove Americans are that bad at driving compared to non-americans ... seriously because I would like to know them. maybe you are right but before I can agree or even disagree I'd like to see some proof to back this up.

Also I don't think paying more for gas and a license is going to make people better drivers ...


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

I don't have any official statistics to show you. The best statistic I can give you is what you see out your windshield. Tell me you don't see stupidity on the roads every day. Being part of an international "fellowship" such as these boards gives you insight to other countries from the people who live there. While I'm not saying there are not stupid drivers elsewhere, foreigners are usually surprised by the stories we Americans tell of stuff we see every day.

And it's more than just the cost of gas. That's only a part of it. And I thought I mentioned all that. Stricter licensing rules is the primary part... whereas bad drivers just don't pass as they do here where you only need to show a pulse to pass (and sometimes not even that.)


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Having driven in the US, Japan, and 4 countries in Europe - yes, Americans are the worst by far. 

Italians can navigate through 5 lanes of traffic inside a rotary. Try seeing how Americans would handle that, lol!


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> Italians can navigate through 5 lanes of traffic inside a rotary. Try seeing how Americans would handle that, lol!


In a SUV on a cell phone... that would be scary.


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