# Will 325xit touring wagon be offered in 2004?



## Dave in Oregon (Jan 7, 2003)

Still no "official info from BMWNA. Dealer thinks sportwagon will not be offered in 2004 in order to make way for the X3 sport ute which will be built on the sportwagon platform. Comments? I will need to order a sportwagon soon (MY 2003) if this is so; otherwise I would wait to order for 2004 model year.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

Not sure anyone has solid info yet, but prospects/rumors say no


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

That really is so sad. Now MB and Audi both offer compact wagons with manual and auto trannys, big and small engines, and 2WD or AWD. BMW, instead of expanding the line is killing it in favor of an SUV. 

Maybe it's just me but it seems BMW is loosing it's identity to appease the masses. Except for the M cars and the ZHP, BMW is offering their followers LESS of what attracted them to the brand at first while Audi and MB are offering more of what brought their customers in. 

There is no doubt MB is the luxury leader, and they offer great looking cars with packed with luxury features (for a price). Audi is a decent blend of luxury and performance for a great price. And BMW has always been the performance car (one could add some luxury to it, but it wasn't its mission). 

But it seems they are trying to cash in on the great image they created for the last 10 years that brought masses of people in, and now they are adapting their offerings.

That they would axe a great sportwagon (that could have used a 330 offering) to "replace" it with an SUV is just embarrasing. Offer the SUV. Go ahead. I am sure it will be profitable. But why kill the 3er touring? It makes no sense. Just when wagons were making a comeback.


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## Llarry (May 17, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> *That really is so sad. Now MB and Audi both offer compact wagons with manual and auto trannys, big and small engines, and 2WD or AWD. BMW, instead of expanding the line is killing it in favor of an SUV.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but it seems BMW is loosing it's identity to appease the masses. Except for the M cars and the ZHP, BMW is offering their followers LESS of what attracted them to the brand at first while Audi and MB are offering more of what brought their customers in.
> 
> ...


Exactly! I suspect that BMW thinks it can hold on to the old core customers (people like us) and somehow get a lot of new customers, but -- like many others here -- I am feeling a bit uneasy about some of the moves BMW is making.

The ZHP development is encouraging. If it proves a sales success hopefully BMWNA will be reminded of what made BMW such an icon in the US market.

Imagine how many 330iT ZHPs BMW could sell to us!

If, on the other hand, BMW wants to be the premiere maker of "performance SUVs" or some such crap...


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## uter (Jan 6, 2002)

*Dear BMW NA*

Dear BMW NA,

If you kill the 3 series touring, you will lose loyal customers like me. It's already so painful to see A4 Avants with a performance edge. Don't push your core (repeat) buyers away by eliminating the performance wagon category.

I enjoy the space and cruiser ride of my family's two 5 series wagon (an '02 525iT and a '92 525iT), but neither compare in the fun-to-drive factor to my 325xiT.

Please don't think we'll simply roll over and buy X3's, 'cause they ain't what were interested in.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Dear BMW NA*



uter said:


> *Dear BMW NA,
> 
> If you kill the 3 series touring, you will lose loyal customers like me. It's already so painful to see A4 Avants with a performance edge. Don't push your core (repeat) buyers away by eliminating the performance wagon category.
> 
> ...


Amen. I would sign up to own a 330iT/xiT in no time. Better yet, the 330dT/xdT available in europe. My fiancee LOVES the 3er wagon, but it is just too weak with AWD and step. We are being "forced" to consider the C320 in the future.

The sad thing is that these cars are currently available elsewhere. Even here in sedan version. What is going to happen when C&D does a sportwagon comparo? Audi, MB, even Volvo and VW, but no BMW in the test. That will be a sad day. Forget putting their new X3 in the mix. It would get embarrassed. And judging by the X5's cargo area, you'll be lucky to fit a gallon of milk in the back.


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## Marco (Mar 7, 2003)

I fully agree. I just ordered (for ED) a 325xit. If the do discontinue it, I am glad I got it just in time.
I would not consider for a second the idea of buying a SUV, even from BMW. I would forgo the ED savings and go to Audi in a flash!
I cannot believe that -- with wagon demand growing-- BMW will stop production. Maybe they are 'suspending' it in view of the new 2005 3series generation .


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## Phil F (Mar 16, 2003)

Hmm... I just ordered a 325xi. I was wavering between the xi and the xiT. But when my dealer told me that, should I want to go with the wagon in the future, it would always be available, I thought, hey 'go with the xi now, and hope that the xiT will become available with the larger engine in a couple years.'

Had I thought that this would be the last year for the xiT, I think I would have gone ahead and purchased it instead.

I agree: BMW is going to be making a mistake if they dump the iT and xiT in favor of the X3.


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## 3Wagon (Nov 8, 2002)

I would upgrade our 03 325iT to a 330iT in a heartbeat, especially if they offered the ZHP. I would put my order in the next day they announced it.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

The sales just aren't there for BMW wagons. Sure, on paper they sound great. If everyone here that says "I'd definately buy an E46 iT" actually went out and bought one, then maybe it would have a chance at survival. As it is, they sit on the dealers lots for months and months with no interest.

The E39 iT isn't immune from this disease, either. My dealer had an '02 540iAT on the lot that it couldn't get rid of up until last week. It was brand new, the only mileage on it was from a few test drives. List price was up in the $55k range, but they had to wholesale it for $37,500 to finally get rid of it. They got the car from a dealer in Texas that was so desperate to get rid of it, he gave my dealer *4 X5 allocations* in return for taking the 540iAT along with them.

Dealers don't want these cars. They sit on the car all year long, the dealer has to sell them at or near invoice to finally get rid of them, and they incure hefty floorplan fees in the mean time.

There is a small enthusiast group on these sites that loves the wagons, but they are not reflective of the entire BMW customer base. As soon as they introduce the X3, there will be even more potential customers changing their minds (the ones that were only planning on buying the E46iT for its price and would really rather have an SUV/SAV).

Speak with your wallets. Letters to BMW telling them how much you all love the car is worthless unless you are willing to go out there and buy them. Sure, BMW loves getting letters from fans of their cars, but those letters mean nothing to them if those same cars are not selling and are just tying up dealer's inventory.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> *The sales just aren't there for BMW wagons. Sure, on paper they sound great. If everyone here that says "I'd definately buy an E46 iT" actually went out and bought one, then maybe it would have a chance at survival. As it is, they sit on the dealers lots for months and months with no interest.*


I'd like to hear from Jon and the others with BMW dealership experience sound off about that (but I don't expect them to be able to). When I was shopping for an E46 Touring in late 2001 there were wait lists out the door for the RWD iT at all the dealerships and got lucky with a quick xiT production slot. At the dealerships where I did not buy, they tried to talk me into buying a sedan, some of them were kind of high pressure too. At the dealership where I did buy, my salesman said that he could get me a better deal by ~$500 less over invoice on a sedan, but that was only in response to my asking. He (and the others at the other dealerships) said that the E46 Tourings went quickly.



> *Dealers don't want these cars. They sit on the car all year long, *


I'd really like to hear from someone with a broader experience or base of knowledge than either of us has. Our conflicting anecdotal experiences don't clarify the situation at all. The only thing that we know for sure is that BMW doesn't sell a lot of E46 Tourings in the US. We don't really know why though.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> *I'd like to hear from Jon and the others with BMW dealership experience sound off about that ...
> 
> I'd really like to hear from someone with a broader experience or base of knowledge than either of us has. Our conflicting anecdotal experiences don't clarify the situation at all. The only thing that we know for sure is that BMW doesn't sell a lot of E46 Tourings in the US. We don't really know why though. *


FWIW, I have 3 years of BMW dealer experience behind me (in both Sales and Aftersales)

I don't expect Jon to come back and tell you he has lines of customers anxious to get their spot on the E46iT waiting lists.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Like I said before, I am not against BMW offering the X3 if they think there is a market opportunity and would be profitable for them to introduce such a vehicle. But there is no reason for them not to offer the car as an ordered car. I see enough E46iT's on the road to know that people buy them. Maybe not a lot of them, but enough that if a customer were to back down on an ordered wagon, they could sell it eventually. Why not just offer it? A 330iT/xiT would cost them no more trouble to offer than a 330i/xiT as far as regulations etc. It's the same thing. 

I can guarantee you they sold less Z8's than they did E46 wagons. So why not offer them if it will keep their enthusiast base happy. They surely would not lose money on them, but it gives them exposure to a market in case it suddenly booms. 

I have not been able to test-drive an E46 wagon, but I don't need to to know that it would perform better than the competition based on the respective sedan comparisons. As far as buying one now, had they offered here the 330xiT they offer in Europe, I WOULD have ordered it.

It's not always about making the most money. One has to invest in PR as well. Why does Audi do so well? Because they are known for their sport wagons and because they offer a powerful motor in a power-hungry country. Truth is, BMW has only offered an AWD wagon for 2 years with minimal advertisement of its existance and with only one engine that performance-wise falls far short of BMW standards when optioned with AWD and an auto. 

If it is such a horrible market, why is MB offering more wagons with more options? Maybe not for profit, but for presence.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

SARAFIL said:


> *FWIW, I have 3 years of BMW dealer experience behind me (in both Sales and Aftersales)
> *


That helps :thumbup:


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

mbr129 said:


> *Truth is, BMW has only offered an AWD wagon for 2 years with minimal advertisement of its existance and with only one engine that performance-wise falls far short of BMW standards when optioned with AWD and an auto.
> 
> If it is such a horrible market, why is MB offering more wagons with more options? Maybe not for profit, but for presence. *


'Minimal advertisement?" How about NONE? I have actually come across BMW sales people (2, to be exact) who didn't even know the thing exists!!!

I agree about the point about 'voting with your wallet' (and why it's no surprise that Lincoln LS V6 MTs don't sell but Subaru bringing and selling every WRX they can is) but there just isn't any effort being put in to bring awareness to the fact that they exist. Volvo, Subaru and Audi are known as marketers of wagons because they are featured in marketing campaigns (especially Volvo's famous late 80s one where they compared the 740 Turbo to a Countach with a U-Haul trailer). MB seems to thrive on the fact that everyone sees all the W123 and W124 wagons that are all over. But BMW seems to have never put any effort behind any of their wagon offerings in the US (E34/39/46).


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> *That helps :thumbup: *


It's quite unfortunate. I happen to like the versatility and the handling capabilities of both the E39 and E46 wagons. The problem is that there is not a large demand for them, dealers are hesitant to have them in stock and are even more hesitant to take used ones in on trade.

We live in a country obsessed with the SUV. What can BMW do about that?

Another problem is probably BMW's marketing strategy. While the wagons will perform and handle just like a car, they have to work on marketing them to a different audience by focusing on different issues. While "Ultimate Driving Machine" ads will bring people in to see the sedans, coupes and convertibles, the people looking at wagons want to hear a bit more about versatility, safety and practicality. The average BMW customer values performance more than the average Audi or MB customer, so they are a bit more reluctant to get a wagon versus an Audi or MB client (just look at the average A6 Avant/E320 Wagon driver to see what I mean). But when this "performance oriented" client needs a family hauler, for some reason they tend to lean towards an X5 dunno: ) or go to another non-BMW vehicle that is a bit more well known for its versatility.

The average BMW owner wants a solid performance vehicle, but for some reason, when he buys a family, vehicle, performance isn't so high on his list. Since BMW markets the performance aspects over the utilitarian aspects of their wagons, they seem to be ignored. Its really wierd when you think about it, but those are the observations that I have made.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Kaz said:


> *'Minimal advertisement?" How about NONE? I have actually come across BMW sales people (2, to be exact) who didn't even know the thing exists!!!
> 
> I agree about the point about 'voting with your wallet' (and why it's no surprise that Lincoln LS V6 MTs don't sell but Subaru bringing and selling every WRX they can is) but there just isn't any effort being put in to bring awareness to the fact that they exist. Volvo, Subaru and Audi are known as marketers of wagons because they are featured in marketing campaigns (especially Volvo's famous late 80s one where they compared the 740 Turbo to a Countach with a U-Haul trailer). MB seems to thrive on the fact that everyone sees all the W123 and W124 wagons that are all over. But BMW seems to have never put any effort behind any of their wagon offerings in the US (E34/39/46). *


Precisely my point Kaz. They simply did a half-assed job. If they wante dto enter the market, then well dammit, you bring over everything you've got. Especially when you are the "performance brand" and two competitors can smoke you. This is even more painfull considering they already have the freakin' car in other countries, engine and all.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

SARAFIL said:


> *We live in a country obsessed with the SUV. What can BMW do about that?*


All BMW needs is a couple of commercials making a parallel comparison.

Familiy A stuffs its SUV (say a RX300) with crap, family B stuffs its crap into a E46 wagon. Along the same drive, they both have to do an emergency manouver, and later slam on the brakes. Add a section to show off its AWD prowess, and the customer is sold.

Add a commercial showing a competitor's sedan getting smoked by what seems to be an E46 sedan, but later reveal it is a wagon. Customer sold... again.

Bottom line, they didn't even throw the US market a freakin' bone.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

mbr129 said:


> *
> Add a commercial showing a competitor's sedan getting smoked by what seems to be an E46 sedan, but later reveal it is a wagon. Customer sold... again.
> *


A sedan? That would be too easy. Try a V6 Camaro. Ask me how I know.


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## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

mbr129 said:


> *All BMW needs is a couple of commercials making a parallel comparison.
> 
> Familiy A stuffs its SUV (say a RX300) with crap, family B stuffs its crap into a E46 wagon. Along the same drive, they both have to do an emergency manouver, and later slam on the brakes. Add a section to show off its AWD prowess, and the customer is sold.
> 
> ...


Do you really think that's going to work? Do you really think the people buying Hummer H2's, Escalades, Navigators and even MLs and X5s care? BMW could show a commercial with the E46 wagon outperforming a Ferrari and those people still wouldn't blink. Many people find it repulsive. No matter how cool, safe, efficient, or fun to drive BMW tries to tell us it is, those people will never be won over.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

mbr129 said:


> *E320 starts at 49K...0-60 times of 8...and weights fo 3900lbs.... But even the E320 offors 232lbs-ft of torque, while weighing only a couple of hundred pounds more than the 325xiT (175lb-ft of torque). *


Whoa...lets try to keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges. The E class is more comperable to the 5er than the 3er. I could buy a 325xiT and a MINI for what an E320 costs. The C240 4Matic wagon starts at $35,245 (slushie only, 325xiTA $34,120/325xiT $32,845) and has less horsepower (168 v 184) and about the same torque (177 v 175).

No doubt, pretty much everyone offers more wagon choices in the US than BMW, but we already knew that.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *Whoa...lets try to keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges. The E class is more comperable to the 5er than the 3er. I could buy a 325xiT and a MINI for what an E320 costs. The C240 4Matic wagon starts at $35,245 (slushie only, 325xiTA $34,120/325xiT $32,845) and has less horsepower (168 v 184) and about the same torque (177 v 175).
> 
> No doubt, pretty much everyone offers more wagon choices in the US than BMW, but we already knew that. *


I wasn't trying to compare an E-class with a 3er. I only metioned the fact that even in it's weakest offering, the E320 has more torque/weight ratio than the 325xiT. And BMW are supposed to be the sporty ones. Simply reinforcing the fact that BMW is missing the boat.


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## goodfella (Jan 9, 2002)

have a 325it loaner now. needs the SP and is still a bit slow but with the sp and a 330 version I would really consider this car in the AWD version. otherswise may consider an AUDI!


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

mbr129 said:


> *I wasn't trying to compare an E-class with a 3er. I only metioned the fact that even in it's weakest offering, the E320 has more torque/weight ratio than the 325xiT. And BMW are supposed to be the sporty ones. Simply reinforcing the fact that BMW is missing the boat. *


But the E320 is not the weakest (powerwise) wagon that is offered here so why look at it all in comparison to the 325? I may be a bit dense...it is Firday morning.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *But the E320 is not the weakest (powerwise) wagon that is offered here so why look at it all in comparison to the 325? I may be a bit dense...it is Firday morning. *


No, no. You are right. The C240 IS weaker than a 325xiT. I just get the feeling that with their equal amounts of torque the slightly lighter C240 probably pulls even at low RPM's with a 325xiTA.

I just wanted to bring up the fact that Mercedes is offering new wagons while BMW plans to take them away.

Curiously.... the 3.2L in the E320 offers 7 more hp and 12 more lb-ft of torque than the 3.2L in the C320.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

mbr129 said:


> *I just wanted to bring up the fact that Mercedes is offering new wagons while BMW plans to take them away. *


Like I said, it's no surprise. 



> *Curiously.... the 3.2L in the E320 offers 7 more hp and 12 more lb-ft of torque than the 3.2L in the C320. *


It's not too uncommon to see the same engine making slightly different levels of power in different models. Intake and exhaust work is usually different and accounts for most of the differences. The main other type is when an engine from a hot car is put into other "lesser" model (think Corvette motors in F Bodies and the Impala SS) where the engines are purposely detuned so that the hot car stays at the top of the power chart.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *It's not too uncommon to see the same engine making slightly different levels of power in different models. Intake and exhaust work is usually different and accounts for most of the differences. The main other type is when an engine from a hot car is put into other "lesser" model (think Corvette motors in F Bodies and the Impala SS) where the engines are purposely detuned so that the hot car stays at the top of the power chart. *


Yeah. I had seen that variation due to different applications. Such as when the same engine used in a sedan gets slapped on an SUV and they try to fit the characteristics to the application. But considerig the same engine is used for the same purposes it struck me as a bit odd. But you are right.. exhaust, etc can make a big difference.

I have also heard that MB will replace their 3.2L engines with 3.5L similar to the one used in the ML350. If the keep the price fixed, now that would be a big improvement. Right now there is a huge difference between the 3.2L and the 5.0L engines. The ML350 puts out 232hp and 254lb-ft. That kind of power would carry an E-class quite nicely without the 5.0L engine overkill (also very thirsty). Especially if you are looking to haul stuff around in an E-class wagon.

Also, if the DO put that on the C-Class, the C320 will probably beat a regular 330 (especially with step) easily as far as accleration goes.


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## stsmytherie (May 8, 2003)

*Re: another 325xit owner-to-be*



pdarringer said:


> *For my next wagon purchase (2020?), guess that just leaves Audi or, hmmm, Subaru???  *


Or perhaps a used 325iT? 

At least BMW finally brought a 3er touring to the US with the e46. We missed out on the e30 and e36.


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## Jeff_DML (Mar 13, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *Whoa...lets try to keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges. The E class is more comperable to the 5er than the 3er. I could buy a 325xiT and a MINI for what an E320 costs. The C240 4Matic wagon starts at $35,245 (slushie only, 325xiTA $34,120/325xiT $32,845) and has less horsepower (168 v 184) and about the same torque (177 v 175).
> 
> No doubt, pretty much everyone offers more wagon choices in the US than BMW, but we already knew that. *


I am pretty sure mercedes offers a stick in the C wagons now.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

Jeff_DML said:


> *I am pretty sure mercedes offers a stick in the C wagons now. *


They do. All C-class cars have a 6-speed as standard now.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jeff_DML said:


> *I am pretty sure mercedes offers a stick in the C wagons now. *


Not in the 4Matics.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *Not in the 4Matics. *


.

Good catch. Very true. :thumbup:


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

mbr129 said:


> *.
> 
> Good catch. Very true. :thumbup: *


The only reason that I went after the 4Matics was because of the constant reference of the xiT vs the iT.

So, for the time being at least, BMW does has something over its German friends when it comes to something about sporty wagons


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *The only reason that I went after the 4Matics was because of the constant reference of the xiT vs the iT.
> 
> So, for the time being at least, BMW does has something over its German friends when it comes to something about sporty wagons  *


Yup. That is very true. If I had my way, I would get a manual 330xiT (while we are at it, make it a 330xdT), but the AWD wagon we get will be my wife's, and she wants an auto, since the ZHP is manual, and whatever sporty car we get in the future will also be manual. That is why the Benz'es become more appealing.


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