# The Mirage of Electric Vehicles.



## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

The Mirage of Electric Vehicles


Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach For those who think that electric vehicles make a difference … think again. The Department of Energy’s Argonne National Lab has just released a study showing that in…




wattsupwiththat.com





*Over the last eleven years, electric vehicles in the US have saved Two. Days. Worth. Of. Gasoline.*


----------



## coupe15 (Jun 6, 2020)

You know what I like about having an electric car? My wife doesn't have to run by a gas station every little bit to fill up on the way to/from church, shopping, doctor's appt. etc. She comes home, plugs it in and it's ready to go the next day. Unplug it and drive. Come home and plug it in. 

Can't say it's saving me money as it costs a lot more for the monthly payments than the gas for all our cars/trucks put together. But it sure is easy to "fill up."

I'm a member of an electric car forum. The members there are completely unconcerned about California telling people not to charge their cars and/or the reports that Switzerland is going to tell their citizens not to charge their cars during some of this coming winter. "Isolated" incidents that don't really mean what the news reports say the governments really meant.

We'll keep our one/only electric car and we'll keep our gas cars/truck.


----------



## Goblinski (1 mo ago)

Simplistic articles about complex topics are surely always a win-win. They are simple enough to convey whatever message we want to pass, and rebuking them requires complex argumentation, which is an uphill battle in a simplistic discussion.

Here's my stand on EV's: If I could own one and get free charging, I'd gladly fill someone else's 19 gallon tank four times a month, like I do mine now.

I don't care about saving gas, I care about owning something that is a regular car, accelerates like a supersports car and requires moped-level maintenance levels.


----------



## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Be sure and tell Willis Eschenbach that he wrote a simplistic argument article. The topic is not complex for some.


----------



## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

I did a back-of-an-envelope calculation of CO2 emissions a few months ago. An electric car charged by the grid with electricity generated by natural gas will result in about half the CO2 emissions of a similar gasoline powered car. If the grid's electricity comes from coal, it's a wash.

A gallon of E10 gasoline produces about 19 pounds of CO2 when burned. For 10,000 miles at 25 MPG, that works out to 3.45 metric tons of CO2.

There's also a huge CO2 footprint to manufacture a car, electric or gasoline. It's hard to pin down precisely, but here's an article off the Interwebs saying that it's 17 to 35 metric tons.

The Truth About The Carbon Footprint Of A New Car That No One’s Talking About (hotcars.com)

If you really want to save the penguins, polar bears, and Pakistanis, keep your old car ten or twelve years and stop driving so much.

Where EV's fail miserably is on long road trips, and that's due to short range, long times to recharge (and battery damage from fast charging), and dicey recharging infrastructure. Also, most EV's don't have spare tires.

I love road trips, but Frau Putzer doesn't. So, she's much more of a candidate for an EV than I am. Her X3 will remain our designated family road trip car until I get a new car in 2024 or later. Then, my new 330i or 530i will be the designated family road trip car for the following six or more years. After that, she might end up with an EV. That's eight to ten years away, though.

Our next house will face 21.4° east of north. That's acceptable for having about 25 solar panels on the roof in the back of the house. The roof pitch of 8:12 or 9:12 works out to be just about perfect for the latitude, and the roof is high enough and the backyard is big enough that trees will not block sunlight from getting to the solar panels. The grid' up there (Tennessee) gets 40% of its electricity from non-combustion sources (mostly nukes and dams). All these factors would make an EV a relatively environmentally sound choice for our second car, circa 2032. Our annual mileage has gone way down. So, not having a second car by then might be an even more environmentally sound choice.


----------



## Goblinski (1 mo ago)

Doug Huffman said:


> Be sure and tell Willis Eschenbach that he wrote a simplistic argument article. The topic is not complex for some.


Thanks, I won't  I don't know him, I don't care about him, and I don't owe him any of my time or respect. Not getting into this fight.

EV's now are what digital cameras were in 1999-2000. They had amazing pros and outrageous cons, they were a novelty, a gadget and on the brink of becoming useful, but most importantly - no "Real" photographer would touch them with a ten foot pole, because "real" photographers used "real" cameras.
The second digital cameras became good enough, the dam was breached, and film cameras are a nice, trendy hobby now, small enough to remain cute. Digital cameras, despite their laughable shortcommings back then, rule now. And, people take much, much more pictures than back then.
Digital photography completely killed some industries, and deeply changed other industries.

Same for EVs. Once the dam breaches, the wave won't be stopped. I'm not saying that I like it or dislike it, just that it is what it is.


----------



## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Goblinski said:


> Thanks, I won't  I don't know him, I don't care about him, and I don't owe him any of my time or respect. Not getting into this fight.


Uh huh.

My career was as a professional in nuclear power production as I serviced about a dozen 100 MWth plants. EV are touted by the same touts as PV and windmills - salesmen that lie to sell what they have.

Willis put more effort into his article than you did your simplistic dismissive retort / riposte. But you are not in this ‘fight’.


----------



## Goblinski (1 mo ago)

I think EVs will go nowhere without a wake-up about nuclear energy, which I hope will happen when the sticks put in its (nuclear's) wheels for the last 40 years (at least in the US) will no longer hold and nuclear will at last be restored in its right place. 
In other words - I hope EV's will revive nuclear, as nothing else would be able to handle them.


----------



## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

A PHEV is a best-of-both-worlds solution: quick and reliable refueling with gasoline for long road trips, and the ability to do short daily drives (20 miles or less) with batteries. 

The catch with BMW PHEV's is that they don't have spare tires (essential for road trips), and some of them (e.g. 330e) have drastically smaller fuel tanks than the non-PHEV version (e.g. 330i). Also, BMW's gasoline engines are so efficient that the non-PHEV's actually beat the PHEV's after the plug-in energy is gone.

I could buy a spare tire for a BMW PHEV, but it would turn the trunk into the spare tire storage compartment. A trunk is another essential feature for a road trip.

I made three stops on my 33 mile trip today in my 535i. I got 27.8 MPG. My 33-mile, two-stop trip last night in Frau Putzer's X3 xDrive 30i got 35.5 MPG. 91 AKI, Top Tier Gas costs $3.39/gallon now here in Bubba County.


----------



## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

ClimateTV – Live at NOON CST Friday – The Futility of Electric Vehicles - Watts Up With That?


Essentially, electric vehicles have had negligible impact of the use of fossil fuels in transportation over the last decade




wattsupwiththat.com


----------



## JimH46 (Sep 27, 2013)

Another engineer here. And I also worked in the power industry and taught marine power plant design at the undergradute level for almost 30 years. I understand the technology. When I replaced my car this spring, EVs were not under consideration. I do too many long trips and the charging infrastructure is not there and it will take a breakthrough in battery technolgy to win me over. That said, the link article in the first post makes some good points but is as biased against EVs as the stuff that promotes them. As with most topics, the truth is somewhere in the middle.


----------



## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

JimH46 said:


> Another engineer here. And I also worked in the power industry and taught marine power plant design …


Pleased to meet’cha. I directed testing operations on USN NPP. Started as enlisted nuclear operator, did an IBEW apprenticeship to leadingman, then qualified as NavSea engineer. Retired 1995.

I live on an Island with power by a 10 mile underwater cable that acts as a very effective current limiting ‘fuse’. Our old REA Co-op still maintains three 2.5 MWe DG sets. 2.5 MWe is capacity. We have to notify the co-op of fast recovery water heaters. They have just finished smart meter installations.


----------



## Autoputzer (Mar 16, 2014)

I too am a retired NAVSEA engineer. My specialties were causing trouble and blame deflection.


----------



## JimH46 (Sep 27, 2013)

Nice to see other engineers here! Before leaving the "real" world and becoming a college professor, I helped design the gas turbine propulsion plant for the Navy's FFG7 frigates and then designed Balance of Plant (i.e. outside the reactor containment) systems for a LMFBR power plant (that never got completed after DOE pulled the funding).


----------



## msport34 (Nov 14, 2021)

Ain’t that the truth


----------



## Jack_88 (Mar 20, 2020)

EV's have shortcomings, and aren't the ultimate solution in green transportation, but to say they aren't a big step in the right direction requires ignoring a lot of very positive data points. They are practical for people who don't need it for longer trips and have a place they can install a charger at home. The greatly reduced fuel costs and reduced maintenance costs do well to offset the increased cost compared to an ICE vehicle.

I can say that I don't agree with the article's interpretations. As a former trained EM nuclear class sailor myself, having that experience only really allows me to understand the technology. What that experience does allow me to say, Doug, is that you having your experience is not a qualification that should be lending you any more credibility than anyone else here. Sure, I get it, it sounds impressive to the lay person, but you really gotta stop pulling that out every time someone disagrees with you, it's lazy and everyone sees right through it anyway.


----------



## StanDiego (May 27, 2021)

Doug Huffman said:


> The Mirage of Electric Vehicles
> 
> 
> Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach For those who think that electric vehicles make a difference … think again. The Department of Energy’s Argonne National Lab has just released a study showing that in…
> ...


This is the same guy who denies global warming and resultant impacts. He’s much better at manipulating data than telling the truth. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s secretly funded by Big Oil.


----------



## mountie (Jul 10, 2009)

I was with Howard Arneson, before-during-after his invention of his 'Arneson Surface Prop Drive'......
Efficiency was the primary goal for higher speed with less fuel use due to less drag.
And then, using turbine power for even less weight.
EV's have nothing of that, considering battery materials / manufacture, where they get the charge from, and the distance to the next charge.


----------



## Z4530i (Feb 22, 2009)

JimH46 said:


> Nice to see other engineers here! Before leaving the "real" world and becoming a college professor, I helped design the gas turbine propulsion plant for the Navy's FFG7 frigates and then designed Balance of Plant (i.e. outside the reactor containment) systems for a LMFBR power plant (that never got completed after DOE pulled the funding).





JimH46 said:


> and then designed Balance of Plant (i.e. outside the reactor containment) systems for a LMFBR power plant (that never got completed after DOE pulled the funding).


Long shot here, but I’ve got to ask. Ever hear of a guy named Tom Buchanan? He was one of my roommates in college who went on and got his pHd in nuclear foundations. Did a lot of work on nuclear power plant designs/builds. Way back when they were building them.


----------



## JimH46 (Sep 27, 2013)

Z4530i said:


> Long shot here, but I’ve got to ask. Ever hear of a guy named Tom Buchanan? He was one of my roommates in college who went on and got his pHd in nuclear foundations. Did a lot of work on nuclear power plant designs/builds. Way back when they were building them.


Doesn't ring a bell. I worked on various cooling and purification systems during my couple of years in nuclear power plant design. Nothing dealing with foundations or structures. Most of my career was in marine power plants for commercial and naval ships.


----------

