# Does BMW have an unintended acceleration problem?



## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

JimD1 said:


> small as in zero? NASA could not find a single car that could overcome it's brakes and become unmanageable. Brief surges from malfunctions was the most they could find. Mats can trap gas pedals and mechanical linkage can bind up but the "car ran away and I was standing on the brake" form of unintended acceleration has never been documented in the form of a test of the offending car.


When I see stories about people hitting the "brake" and the car *not slowing and instead accelerating*, I come to the immediate conclusion that it was "user error". The driver hit the accelerator, and wants to shift the blame.

With this "drive by wire" system where the throttle is controlled by variable voltage input from a throttle sensor, which might be somehow shorted to the wire that leads from the brake pedal switch to the brake lights, I can see how there might be a small chance that a pair of adjacent wires might touch somehow or that the computer controlling it all might malfunction.:dunno:

Even if that's the case, full throttle should not be able to overcome the brakes. It's mathematically impossible. Brakes decelerate the car from 60-0 a lot quicker than the throttle gets the car to 60. So the idea that "*hitting the brake did not slow the car but instead accelerated it*" still has only one valid theory:

The person claiming this fat-footed the throttle by mistake.


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

I agree. But also remember that if you car is accelerating hard and/or at high speed, you cannot gently apply the brakes and solve the problem. One of the Toyota motorists was a cop or something and kept trying to get the car under control. But eventually he overheated the brakes and crashed. The brakes are more powerful than the motor. In every car certified to be on the road. But if brakes get hot, they loose their ability to over rule the engine. The Toyota had the mat trapping the gas pedal down. So the engine was pretty fully engaged. One hard stop at the start of the incident would have killed the engine and solved the issue. But several slow downs and speed ups overheated the brakes and people got hurt. 

If you ever have a situation where the car wants to go hard and you're not on the gas pedal, don't mess around. Do what you have to do to stop the car ASAP. If it's a manual, put it in neutral. Engine will rev to the limiter but so what. If you can put your auto in neutral do it. Don't push the brakes like you normally would, look for a clear spot in traffic and stand on the brake pedal until the engine dies and/or the car stops. Half hearted attempts to control a car with a stuck throttle can get you killed. 

But before anything else, make absolutely sure your foot is on the brake.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

jimd1 said:


> i agree. But also remember that if you car is accelerating hard and/or at high speed, you cannot gently apply the brakes and solve the problem. One of the toyota motorists was a cop or something and kept trying to get the car under control. But eventually he overheated the brakes and crashed. The brakes are more powerful than the motor. In every car certified to be on the road. But if brakes get hot, they loose their ability to over rule the engine. The toyota had the mat trapping the gas pedal down. So the engine was pretty fully engaged. One hard stop at the start of the incident would have killed the engine and solved the issue. But several slow downs and speed ups overheated the brakes and people got hurt.
> 
> If you ever have a situation where the car wants to go hard and you're not on the gas pedal, don't mess around. Do what you have to do to stop the car asap. *if it's a manual, put it in neutral. Engine will rev to the limiter but so what. If you can put your auto in neutral do it.* don't push the brakes like you normally would, look for a clear spot in traffic and stand on the brake pedal until the engine dies and/or the car stops. Half hearted attempts to control a car with a stuck throttle can get you killed.
> 
> But before anything else, make absolutely sure your foot is on the brake.


+1


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## dolfan13 (Jan 1, 2011)

You do realize the shifter is only a switch as an input to the processor.I read these comments about shifting into neutral,maybe this has no effect in these failures.The best electrical engineers in the world still don't fully understand why tin whiskers form.Tin Whiskers do happen and do cause shorts but they are so fragile examined failed components usually show no sign.


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## Campfamily (Sep 20, 2010)

dolfan13 said:


> You do realize the shifter is only a switch as an input to the processor.I read these comments about shifting into neutral,maybe this has no effect in these failures.The best electrical engineers in the world still don't fully understand why tin whiskers form.Tin Whiskers do happen and do cause shorts but they are so fragile examined failed components usually show no sign.


No tin whiskers in my shifter! :dunno:


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

dolfan13 said:


> You do realize the shifter is only a switch as an input to the processor.I read these comments about shifting into neutral,maybe this has no effect in these failures.The best electrical engineers in the world still don't fully understand why tin whiskers form.Tin Whiskers do happen and do cause shorts but they are so fragile examined failed components usually show no sign.


Sounds like something so rare, as to be one in a million. N4S


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## dolfan13 (Jan 1, 2011)

need4speed said:


> Sounds like something so rare, as to be one in a million. N4S


How many Camry's on the worlds roads or Toyota's for that matter.How many per million UIA cases per million vehicles across the all manufactures?


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

dolfan13 said:


> How many Camry's on the worlds roads or Toyota's for that matter.How many per million UIA cases per million vehicles across the all manufactures?


Tens of millions? I don't know the exact numbers, but if you add in all Toyota's it is likely hundreds of millions. How may cases of UIA? How many proven cases? If you don't include the floor mat issue (or even if you do) it is a very, very small number vis a vie all the Toyotas out there. I'd say one in a million might be over stating it. N4S


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

dolfan13 said:


> How many Camry's on the worlds roads or Toyota's for that matter.How many per million UIA cases per million vehicles across the all manufactures?


Please note: the use of apostrophe denotes possession, not plural.

You meant to say "Camrys" and "Toyotas".


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## dolfan13 (Jan 1, 2011)

mark_m5 said:


> Please note: the use of apostrophe denotes possession, not plural.
> 
> You meant to say "Camrys" and "Toyotas".


Not so well with grammar ,I do study automobile design intently.So can you follow me around the forums and correct my grammar ?


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

dolfan13 said:


> Not so well with grammar ,I do study automobile design intently. So can you follow me around the forums and correct my grammar ?


You meant "good" there.

I won't follow you around, but if I see a grammatically incorrect post in a thread that interests me, I might point it out as a public service.


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## dolfan13 (Jan 1, 2011)

mark_m5 said:


> You meant "good" there.
> 
> I won't follow you around, but if I see a grammatically incorrect post in a thread that interests me, I might point it out as a public service.


Thats funny sh1t dude.I've been on forums for over 20 years ,when someone calls out on grammar they usually know nothing about cars.


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## X5dieselowner (Sep 11, 2014)

*The rest of the story*

As Paul Harvey used to say...and now for the rest of the story. BMW NA flew an engineer to Miami to examine the X5. He spent two hours going over all relevant systems. Yesterday, BMW NA customer relations told me they found nothing wrong with the vehicle and refused my request to trade in my 2014 X5 on a new one. To those who doubt my story about the vehicle not once but twice moving forward with the RPMs at 4k plus while I was pressing on the brake pedal, I say two things. First, do you really think BMW NA would have flown an engineer to Miami if they felt this was a driver error incident? Second, there are numerous reports on the internet of similar incidents when you google "BMW unintended acceleration." So, wake up! BMW knows it has a problem and has made the calculation it is cheaper to sweep the problem under the rug than to go through the recall process. It appears BMW NA recognizes that there is a problem, but they do not know what is causing it. The only way to force a resolution is a class action lawsuit.


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

Do you think BMW might just have wanted to be sure there wasn't an issue with your car? The part of your story that is fairly obviously not factual is that you depressed the brake and the car wouldn't stop. You might be able to convince a jury of nearly anything but this just isn't factual. If your brakes work, you stop. It has been tested and it didn't really need to be. When engines fight brakes, brakes win. I believe it is very possible for a modern engine with an electric throttle to attempt to accelerate without the gas pedal being depressed. I think it is highly unusual but can happen. But unless the brakes are also not functioning right, the driver merely needs to firmly apply the brakes.

I'm sorry your X5 is not performing up to your expectations. I am not rejecting a problem with your car. But I am rejecting your statement that the brakes would not stop the vehicle.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

jimd1 said:


> do you think bmw might just have wanted to be sure there wasn't an issue with your car? The part of your story that is fairly obviously not factual is that you depressed the brake and the car wouldn't stop. You might be able to convince a jury of nearly anything but this just isn't factual. If your brakes work, you stop. It has been tested and it didn't really need to be. When *engines fight brakes, brakes win.* i believe it is very possible for a modern engine with an electric throttle to attempt to accelerate without the gas pedal being depressed. I think it is highly unusual but can happen. But unless the brakes are also not functioning right, the driver merely needs to firmly apply the brakes.
> 
> I'm sorry your x5 is not performing up to your expectations. I am not rejecting a problem with your car. But i am rejecting your statement that the brakes would not stop the vehicle.


+1


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

JimD1 said:


> Do you think BMW might just have wanted to be sure there wasn't an issue with your car? The part of your story that is fairly obviously not factual is that you depressed the brake and the car wouldn't stop. You might be able to convince a jury of nearly anything but this just isn't factual. If your brakes work, you stop. It has been tested and it didn't really need to be. When engines fight brakes, brakes win. I believe it is very possible for a modern engine with an electric throttle to attempt to accelerate without the gas pedal being depressed. I think it is highly unusual but can happen. But unless the brakes are also not functioning right, the driver merely needs to firmly apply the brakes.
> 
> I'm sorry your X5 is not performing up to your expectations. I am not rejecting a problem with your car. But I am rejecting your statement that the brakes would not stop the vehicle.


And this can be tested X5dieselowner.

On an open road, with nobody around, hit the gas and the brake at the same time. Apply slowly until you floor them both.


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## shuguley (Nov 7, 2014)

I drive a 2006 BMW X5. This morning while completely stopped in the drive thru of the bank at the window, reaching into the open drawer for a deposit slip, my BMW accelerated wide open on its own. I distinctly looked down and my foot was on the brake. The car was moving extremely fast and the engine was revving as if the gas was pressed even though my foot was on the brake. The drive thru opened up into a long parking lot. I was able to pull up the parking brake to stop the car. It was so scary and I was at the point to make a decision to get into traffic, if I could make the turn or to hit a retirement building. Once the car stopped, I put it in park and turned it off. I checked to ensure there was not anything on the gas pedal and there was not. This is a MAJOR issue and I am so thankful to God, he allowed me to stop this car. This has to be some type of defect.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

So far the only first hand accounts of this are X5. :dunno:


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## Campfamily (Sep 20, 2010)

So, I had something similar to this happen with my E60 550i a few weeks ago. I had started the engine, and was sitting in the parking lot at work waiting for the iDrive to boot, radio to come on, putting my seatbelt on, etc. It was warm in the car, and the A/C was blowing hard, so I couldn't hear anything else. I decided to take my coat off, and was kind of squirming around in the seat getting it off around the seat belt. I had my foot on the brake. All of a sudden, my engine revs went way up. Fortunately, my car was in neutral (I have a manual transmission car). I immediately pressed as hard as I could on the brake, and the revs actually increased. Since I knew my car wasn't going anywhere, I took my foot off of the brake, and the engine went back to idle. I looked down at my feet, and after a bit of experimentation, I found that if I twisted my foot a certain way, even if I had the ball of my foot firmly on the brake, I could press the accelerator down with my heel without meaning to. I can see how, if this were a car with an automatic transmission, it could take off, and I could be pressing on the brake with my heel pressing the accelerator. Add to that the panic of my car taking off while I have the brake on, and I can certainly see how something like this could happen.

To "shuguley", hope the lesson learned is that, when sitting in a drive through, or when moving around in the car (say, to reach out and grab that deposit slip), put your car in park; don't leave it in drive. That way, if you do inadvertently press the accelerator, nothing bad happens, other than you look like a dolt sitting in the drive through with your engine on the rev limiter. 

Keith


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## f30jojo (Jun 4, 2013)

I have a abstact opinion on this. Hear me out... a few points.

I dont think there's any vehicle on the road today that can over power its own brakes. This includes m cars. 

If this occurrence were caused by electronic or mechanical failure there would be a great deal more of reported accelerations. 

Personally, from my observations, when this has occured, the driver has been severely distracted. E.g. bank drive through in gear. I think that chances of inadvertent throttle pressure and insuing panic are to blame. Certainly much more to blsme than a catastrophic electrical/mechanical, plus temporary, failure of throttle action. 

Floor mats, like the prius, could be to blame. Again I doubt it as even a over powered vehicle cannot over power even cheap brakes, if used properly. 




Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## motoguy128 (Jul 28, 2015)

My wife claimed something similar when she drove my car on Sunday morning. I suspect she had her foot to the right edge of the brake pedal and was unintentionally pushing down on the accelerator while she pressed on the brake.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

I am soo glad I found this post. I posted on Sunday because I purchased 1997 318ti with 199k miles. On Sunday about 3 minutes while at a light my car suddenly accelerated while my foot on the brake. It revved very high. The more I put my foot on the brake. It kept revving higher. I put it in neutral at the second light and it went down. It revved high until I slowed to and shifted into park then it went to automatic mode. A 10 minute drive was Hell! I stopped at my destination and shut the car off and it did not repeat. Two days later it done it again, revving to 5-6. While at the light. I shifted to neutral and this time it took longer to go into automatic mode( I have the sports pkg with manual/auto mode) my engine sounded like I was on the track and I don't care how hard I depressed that Brake, the engine would not decelerate until I shifted into neutral. When I drove today, it drove fine no problem. This unintended acceleration is Real and both incidents my foot was on the Brake and the engine was Revving Real High!


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## f30jojo (Jun 4, 2013)

Monebyrd said:


> I am soo glad I found this post. I posted on Sunday because I purchased 1997 318ti with 199k miles. On Sunday about 3 minutes while at a light my car suddenly accelerated while my foot on the brake. It revved very high. The more I put my foot on the brake. It kept revving higher. I put it in neutral at the second light and it went down. It revved high until I slowed to and shifted into park then it went to automatic mode. A 10 minute drive was Hell! I stopped at my destination and shut the car off and it did not repeat. Two days later it done it again, revving to 5-6. While at the light. I shifted to neutral and this time it took longer to go into automatic mode( I have the sports pkg with manual/auto mode) my engine sounded like I was on the track and I don't care how hard I depressed that Brake, the engine would not decelerate until I shifted into neutral. When I drove today, it drove fine no problem. This unintended acceleration is Real and both incidents my foot was on the Brake and the engine was Revving Real High!


Your throttle was sticking... Seriously?


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@f30jojo-As sure as my Name is Monique. My engine was revved high at the light both times with my foot on the brake. The second time it revved soo high it shook the car with my son in it. I shifted to neutral and it downshifted. When I began to drive, it revved high as if I was in manual mode. I do not know how to drive stick,I was pressing the hell out of the automatic button and the brake. It wasn't until I shifted back into neutral and let it throttle down did it stop. I drove many cars from Honda,Chrysler and even had an 1996 dodge omni, I Never ever experienced and vehicle of mine Suddenly Accelerate in the 28 years I have been driving in my life. This is the first bimmer albeit old, I I had experienced in two days of each incident. When I test drove it , it did not do it. If I was not familiar with Hoopdies, you would have been reading about my family in the papers. I was soo alarmed my First post to the 1st incident was Sunday Sudden acceleration 318ti. It's real my friend, enjoy your day.


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*Nice to know it's not just me, but do not wish this on you.*



f30jojo said:


> Your throttle was sticking... Seriously?


I wish you the best of luck with getting the issue fixed, but BMW can't find anything wrong. Why the engine rev's like it does is dangerous, and my only resort is to brake and shutoff the engine. At least you have neutral. I hope BMW finds an answer to this UA high revving of the engine.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@Tuppy- your line " Glad it's not just me...." It's hits it on the nail Exactly! My sis has owned bmw's for years and no problem. My first one and hear it is. It is dangerous. The car was moving and if I took my foot off that brake, it would have shot like a rocket! I thank you soo much for your support and hopefully we will find a solution to this frightening problem.


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

Monebyrd said:


> @f30jojo-As sure as my Name is Monique.


I am fairly sure that what f30jojo meant was that your car does not have some bizarre, mysterious ailment that causes uncontrollable acceleration and alarmist posts on the Internet. He meant, your throttle simply got stuck.

Your car is a 1997 model. It has a mechanical throttle linkage connecting the pedal to the throttle body. That linkage requires periodic inspection and lubrication. Odds are good on an 18-year-old car (in "hoopdie" condition) that no one has performed that maintenance since the last time a dealer service department had their hands on the car.

Inspect, lubricate and/or repair (as needed) the throttle linkage, cable and pedal assembly and you will have seen the last of your problem.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Oh, and check your floor mats. The one and only time this happened to me was in an Audi Allroad. It was due to the floor mat pushing against the gas pedal. If your foot on the brake is dragging/pushing the floor mat forward, it can easily hit the throttle pedal.


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*A possible answer*



Monebyrd said:


> @Tuppy- your line " Glad it's not just me...." It's hits it on the nail Exactly! My sis has owned bmw's for years and no problem. My first one and hear it is. It is dangerous. The car was moving and if I took my foot off that brake, it would have shot like a rocket! I thank you soo much for your support and hopefully we will find a solution to this frightening problem.
> 
> I got this from another Bimmerfest user who wrote a very lengthy (20 page) article on this. The summary sums it up well: The Bosch torque-based engine controller for vehicles having electronic throttles has been described and simulated. Simulation shows that the Bosch engine controller can experience a runaway open-throttle condition when operating with a slightly higher throttle gain associated with an incorrect battery voltage compensation caused by sensing the battery voltage during a negative-going voltage spike on the battery supply line produced by one of the vehicle's accessory electric motors turning on. This runaway open-throttle condition has all the characteristics of sudden acceleration in automobiles, and can explain the sudden acceleration of all vehicles with electronic throttles worldwide. Approaches for testing automobiles for the runaway condition have been provided. Implications of the paper's results have been discussed.:dunno:


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*UA - Yes! Here's an explanation*

The author does not want to be cited.


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*UA - Absolutely Yes!*

It's the best explanation I have found. It can be duplicated and tested. We'll see what BMW USA says, they are getting active on this.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Please, a citation to the paper, rather than repeating your paragraph three times.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Tuppy said:


> I got this from another Bimmerfest user who wrote a very lengthy (20 page) article on this. The summary sums it up well: The Bosch torque-based engine controller for vehicles having electronic throttles has been described and simulated. Simulation shows that the Bosch engine controller can experience a runaway open-throttle condition when operating with a slightly higher throttle gain associated with an incorrect battery voltage compensation caused by sensing the battery voltage during a negative-going voltage spike on the battery supply line produced by one of the vehicle's accessory electric motors turning on.


I could write a 20 page article. Doesn't make it true. It's an interesting theory, but occam's razor says the most likely explanation is probably true.

These are really likely:
1. people are lying here (possibly creating multiple IDs to appear to validate their argument)
2. people hit the gas instead of the brake
3. people have ill-fitting floor mats

Not as likely:
4. low battery condition + accessory motor goes on + bug in Bosch throttle logic, *which can't be replicated by mechanics in extensive testing.*

Also, this post from Monique points to probably the floor mat:



Monebyrd said:


> *The more I put my foot on the brake. It kept revving higher.*


Anyway, I'm sure people will continue to post here as this thread gets picked up by Google on a search for the topic.

If you're worried about SA in BMW, buy a stick shift model with a clutch. You'll never have to worry about this again, regardless of why it might happen (*cough* USER ERROR *cough*).


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

As I stated before as long as I have been driving, I have never experienced this with Any of my vehicles. I or anyone does not need to Lie to have their posts being read or to sound the Alarm. I don't want or need attention like that. I was at a stoplight both times. I haven't even put Mats in my baby yet, Next! When I did experience this on Sunday it was my first time using the a/c and I had just put a new battery in. So where is the driver error? I am open to any and all possibilities but there is no reason to be snarky. If you can't add anything helpful, Please Move on, enjoy your day!


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@Zeichen311- when I say "Hoopdie" I am referring to lil stuff ie carbarator on an1981 cutlass supreme stalls and you gas it so it won't cut off. Not an accelerated Engine at a Light with no mats. My car has history from day one and the last owner had it for 7 yrs. it was maintained by a bmw specialist and it did Not do this.


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*Moneybyrd, you created the perfect storm*

New battery or old, when you kick in the electric motor of the A/C, and the battery voltage spikes low enough, this UA situation can occur. It rarely if ever does. But the issue did, and it can be proven in testing apparently. Sorry that you had to go thru it - no, it is not fun.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Monebyrd said:


> As I stated before as long as I have been driving, I have never experienced this with Any of my vehicles. I or anyone does not need to Lie to have their posts being read or to sound the Alarm. I don't want or need attention like that. I was at a stoplight both times. I haven't even put Mats in my baby yet, Next! When I did experience this on Sunday it was my first time using the a/c and I had just put a new battery in. So where is the driver error? I am open to any and all possibilities but there is no reason to be snarky. If you can't add anything helpful, Please Move on, enjoy your day!


I figured the story would change.

If this was a real thing, a mechanic could replicate it.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Tuppy said:


> New battery or old, when you kick in the electric motor of the A/C, and the battery voltage spikes low enough, this UA situation can occur. It rarely if ever does. But the issue did, *and it can be proven in testing apparently*. Sorry that you had to go thru it - no, it is not fun.


Where do you get this idea? There's no testing supporting it.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@Tuppy-Thanks so much! At first I could not find Any boards on this but I know what I experienced. I only drive the car the most 10 minutes to my granny and 10 minutes back to my house tops! Even when I blew my head gasket on my 2007 Chrysler Pacifica touring, it never did that. Hell, I warped my head and messed up my water pump but it got me there and back. My sis owned several bmw's in Texas and she had no problems with them. I hope the problem be solved by the engineers. I will have my mechanic look it over very soon. It is unfortunate that people dismiss this as *cough drivers cough error* I pray it Never happens to you. Especially with your kid in the car. That look I will Never forget on my son's face. I will continue to talk and Sound the alarm. I luv my cars since I was 16. If I wasn't a retired nurse, I would have been a mechanic, trust, this situation here needs to be addressed ***55357;***56865;***55357;***56865;


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@mark_m5-why the hostility? According to the rules we are supposed to be precise and specific which I have done. For whoever responds and reads the thread, I will be very specific. No change in content.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

It also does not Negate that this UA has happened.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@Doug Hoffman- you can find the direct link to the 20 page paper on Sudden Acceleration under the bimmer post" Sudden unintended acceleration " in which a fellow owner BMW X3 accelerated and she was up against a wall. The blogger name is Moosheymama if I'm not mistaken.Mark_m5 is familiar because he posted on there as well a couple of months ago. The center for auto safety has the article as well if you do not wish to search on this topic. As per Tuppy, I will not violate the author wishes but his 20 page article is there and you can come to your own conclusion. It is so disheartening for fellow drivers to assume it is drivers error but I know what I experienced within two days of each other. Both times at the light with my foot on the brake and no Mats!


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Monebyrd said:


> @mark_m5-why the hostility? According to the rules we are supposed to be precise and specific which I have done. For whoever responds and reads the thread, I will be very specific. No change in content.


I have a problem when people say things that aren't backed up by logic and ask us to believe a story that doesn't make sense.

When someone says that their car accelerates when the brake is all the way down, I call BS because there is no production car on the planet that has an engine that's more powerful than the brakes.

Throttle misbehaving is totally believable. There are several logical explanations for a throttle misbehaving (including fat-footing or mats,etc.). But they'd all be easy to find by people who know about the cars and have years of diagnostic training. When someone says they took it to the dealer and they couldn't find anything, that points to a more likely/common cause - user error.


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## Zeichen311 (Mar 31, 2011)

1. The purported fault in the Bosch DME is interesting but a dubious data point--many BMWs use Siemens DMEs (the majority for some time now, I believe). I would have to do some research to confirm the specific applications.

2. For a very long time, BMW engine management software has included a braking override. Mash the throttle and the brake at the same time and the engine will cut power, not run away. During the flap over runaway Toyotas, it was widely reported that while BMW and some other manufacturers _already had_ this safety feature, Toyota did not and were rushing to add it.

3. None of this cancels the simple, physical fact that *the most powerful* system on the car is the *brakes*, not the engine. I don't care whether you are driving a BMW 2002 or a Dodge Hellcat--if you absolutely crush the service brake with the engine at wide-open throttle, the car *will* stop. Your leg may hurt like hell, you may be scared to death and it may take a bit more distance to stop, but no production car's engine can overpower its brakes.

Sadly, most people have never been taught--or more importantly, *practiced*--a true maximum-braking exercise. I have seen this first-hand while coaching students in car-control clinics. We put them through an ABS braking exercise, telling them to brake "as hard as you can" so we can show how to control the car. Most do not brake hard enough to engage ABS on the first try, despite protestations of "pressing as hard as I could!" on the brake pedal. Many need two, three or more attempts to finally crush that pedal through the floor and engage ABS.

So while I do have _some_ sympathy for people who claim to brake "as hard as [they] can," yet have difficulty stopping a car, the truth is: No, sorry, you didn't, else it would have stopped. Even that doesn't change the fact that, as mark_m5 has been saying, _genuine_ UA is vanishingly rare--to extrapolate that an entire brand has "a problem" from a few isolated, irreproducible incidents is disingenuous at best.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@mark_m5 your logic may be askew, for I do not know you from a can of paint. I wanted to share a real problem that has happened to me twice within a two day period. I am relieved that it is not just me alone. Since this has not happened to you, very good! How fortunate! For you to discount and discourage fellow drivers because it hasn't happened to you and that it don't fit in to your logic is something else. Enjoy your day.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@Zeichen311- everyone is entitled to their opinion. You can quote and report what ever. My experience was that the brake did not stop My car with the engine Full throttle in neutral. I did not in no way say that the brand was no good. I am simply stating that my Bmw 318ti had two incidents and although rare as you put it, It does happen! No matter how miniscle, it happens! If anyone can help Me in this matter, I am grateful. I am glad you can empathize with drivers but you are disingenuous when you state it is drivers error. Remain safe, enjoy your day.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Monebyrd said:


> @mark_m5 your logic may be askew, for I do not know you from a can of paint. I wanted to share a real problem that has happened to me twice within a two day period. I am relieved that it is not just me alone. Since this has not happened to you, very good! How fortunate! For you to discount and discourage fellow drivers because it hasn't happened to you and that it don't fit in to your logic is something else. Enjoy your day.


As I said, it happened to me once - in an Audi Allroad. ...Because the floor mat was pressing on the throttle.

I would encourage anyone who experiences an unintended throttle issue to take out their cell phone and record a video of it. Make sure to tape the position of your feet. Drive straight to a mechanic and ask them to look at it immediately, assuming you weren't stepping on the gas or the mat wasn't pressing on the gas. Have them connect a diagnostic computer to it and drive it.

Zeichen - I was looking for confirmation of that. A throttle cut-out when hitting the brake should be easy to test, right? Pressing the brake with the engine revving should make it go to idle then? I could test that in the wife's 228i. That would instantly prove all these claims to be false.


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## dhstadt (Apr 14, 2008)

Monebyrd said:


> @Zeichen311- everyone is entitled to their opinion. You can quote and report what ever. My experience was that the brake did not stop My car with the engine Full throttle in neutral. I did not in no way say that the brand was no good. I am simply stating that my Bmw 318ti had two incidents and although rare as you put it, It does happen! No matter how miniscle, it happens! If anyone can help Me in this matter, I am grateful. I am glad you can empathize with drivers but you are disingenuous when you state it is drivers error. Remain safe, enjoy your day.


Move your right foot an inch more to the left next time you brake and WALLA, problem solved.

OBTW you said your brakes would not stop your car at full throttle in NEUTRAL. Me thinks your credibility is somewhat suspect. So now not only did the engine go to full throttle the transmission also sent power to the wheels even though it was in neutral. uch:


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@dhstat- obviously you trolling for trouble. I may not describe my situation the way you can understand but I know what happened to me. If you can't help, keep your negativity to yourself and move on. When you come from Illinois to New York , you are more than welcome to see my vehicle. I know brake from pedal but you don't have common courtesy, enjoy your day!


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## JimD1 (Jun 5, 2009)

Monebyrd said:


> @dhstat- obviously you trolling for trouble. I may not describe my situation the way you can understand but I know what happened to me. If you can't help, keep your negativity to yourself and move on. When you come from Illinois to New York , you are more than welcome to see my vehicle. I know brake from pedal but you don't have common courtesy, enjoy your day!


It is possible for brakes to not stop a car but only if there is something wrong with the brakes. That something should not be hard for a service person to diagnose. It wouldn't have anything to do with unintended acceleration. If you are really worried about your brakes you should disconnect the ABS and stability control (if you have it) making the brake system a simple hydraulic system. No way for an intermittent or difficult to diagnose problem with a simple hydraulic system. Usually you can disable the ABS and stability control by pulling the fuse.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

@JimD1- the brakes and rotors were serviced 1 year ago both front and back. The car came with a service history. It does has stability control. When the engine was revving and I pulled to my right and put the car in neutral, as hard as I put me foot on the brake the car was still surging forward as if I was driving stick I do have the auto/ manual feature to the car so that's why I was pushing that button as I had stated earlier. Thank you for the suggestion and I will screen shot this and show my mechanic. Enjoy your day.


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## csigg (Oct 10, 2015)

*unintended acceleration*

I had to reply to this forum. Our 2013 BMW 335I just had an unintended acceleration issue causing us to hit a telephone pole going into an "S" curve. I know some of you believe this can't happen but it did happen. My husband and I were just starting into a "S" curve after sitting at a red light. The car accelerated full board and my husband could not slow it down. Unfortunately we hit a telephone pole ($10,000 damage) but fortunately no one was coming in the other direction or it could have been fatal. Our accident is currently under investigation. I would love to hear from anyone else that had a similar incident. Until this happen to you, you can't believe something like this can happen.


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## sampatel1 (Sep 8, 2015)

Csigg: Did you check if the mat was stuck in the accelerator? Let us know what the Dealer finds. This is the second time ever we are hearing on a BMW


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

If BMW has an Unintended Acceleration _problem_, by definition NHTSA knows about it or needs to know about it. Whinging here is anile.


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## csigg (Oct 10, 2015)

No whining here. I thought this was a forum to share experiences. Also, no issue with the floor mats.


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## Monebyrd (Aug 9, 2015)

csigg said:


> No whining here. I thought this was a forum to share experiences. Also, no issue with the floor mats.


Thank you for sharing! There's no whining. It's real! Knowledge is power. As described before, I put my car in neutral and both feet on brakes which prevented damage, thank God! For me my mechanic said I had hoses that needed to be replaced and sprayed the Maf. And that seemed to work. My 97 318ti was sitting for about 6 months as well before I bought it.


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*Nthsb*

I notified NTSHB about my 2 issues experiencing UA in my BMW 335 XI. The National BMW team contacted me and coordinated fixes at my dealership. They worked on the car for 3 days the 1st time, 8 days the second time. They did not admit to the UA, replaced my accelerator pedal, and cleaned some dust/debris. Admitting to an UA issue could cost BMW billions, so I would never expect them to do that unless someone captures this issue on video, and posts it on You Tube. UA does happen with BMW, and I think it is related to issues with the Drive By Wire software. I have now seen about 10 fellow BMW drivers indicate that they have experienced this issue. This will likely get very serious and expensive for BMW. It is just very scary when it occurs - the car takes over, and you lose control.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Tuppy said:


> I notified NTSHB about my 2 issues experiencing UA in my BMW 335 XI. The National BMW team contacted me and coordinated fixes at my dealership. They worked on the car for 3 days the 1st time, 8 days the second time. They did not admit to the UA, replaced my accelerator pedal, and cleaned some dust/debris. Admitting to an UA issue could cost BMW billions, so I would never expect them to do that unless someone captures this issue on video, and posts it on You Tube. UA does happen with BMW, and I think it is related to issues with the Drive By Wire software. I have now seen about 10 fellow BMW drivers indicate that they have experienced this issue. This will likely get very serious and expensive for BMW. It is just very scary when it occurs - the car takes over, and you lose control.


The problem is, you're lying if you say the brakes don't slow you down, even from full throttle.

If people are really so scared of this happening, then learn to drive stick and get a manual transmission car.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

As I've said before on this topic, I can believe UA can happen. Modern cars have tens ( or is it hundreds) of thousands of moving parts and data input every minute. I would say it is so rare that at the most it almost never happens. My problem is this ... brakes vs motor, brakes always win. Always. N4S


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*Need4Speed*

Brakes always win? NOT! That's the problem with the UA event. The brakes do slow the car down, yes. But they do not stop the car. The car will move at 4-10mph under a UA event, and when you're stopped at a light, parking with cars in front of you, etc., you don't have time to stop. With the BMW, the automatic shifter locks up, so you can't move into neutral. All you do is brake hard, slow the car down, the car WILL NOT stop, and press the stop engine button. That is the only way to stop the car, the brakes do not do it with BMW UA.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

mark_m5 said:


> The problem is, you're lying if you say the brakes don't slow you down, even from full throttle.
> 
> If people are really so scared of this happening, then learn to drive stick and get a manual transmission car.


Or learn to calculate brake horsepower.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Tuppy said:


> Brakes always win? NOT! That's the problem with the UA event. The brakes do slow the car down, yes. But they do not stop the car. The car will move at 4-10mph under a UA event, and when you're stopped at a light, parking with cars in front of you, etc., you don't have time to stop. With the BMW, the automatic shifter locks up, so you can't move into neutral. All you do is brake hard, slow the car down, the car WILL NOT stop, and press the stop engine button. That is the only way to stop the car, the brakes do not do it with BMW UA.


Brakes will overpower the engine. The scenario you describe is impossible, therefore it's a lie.


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## need4speed (May 26, 2006)

Tuppy said:


> Brakes always win? NOT! That's the problem with the UA event. The brakes do slow the car down, yes. But they do not stop the car. The car will move at 4-10mph under a UA event, and when you're stopped at a light, parking with cars in front of you, etc., you don't have time to stop. With the BMW, the automatic shifter locks up, so you can't move into neutral. All you do is brake hard, slow the car down, the car WILL NOT stop, and press the stop engine button. That is the only way to stop the car, the brakes do not do it with BMW UA.


Just not the case. if this is happening, something else is in the mix. Driver error, floor mat or other debris not allowing the brake to fully depress. But if all is as designed the brake always wins. N4S


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## Tuppy (Aug 10, 2015)

*Need4Speed, Wakeup!*

The brakes DO NOT always win. I have seen it, I have had my brakes fully checked, and they are in perfect working order. You make an assumption that is not true in the BMW UA event. Stop clouding this serious issue with your false assumptions.: mad:


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Two personal anecdotes do not data make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnRHAyXqYY


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

I can post videos too!

http://youtu.be/YiSQeaeWxGU


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Huh...

http://youtu.be/21mk05qjL1E


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## insound (Jun 1, 2017)

we have a 128i 2013 with 19,000 original miles. This USA (Unintentional Sudden Acceleration) problem has occurred randomly over the car's 19,000 mile history 3 times. Each time it was when we were coasting to a stop, right fooot off the gas pedal, and on the brake pedal . The speed was under 10 MPH when the car began to accelerate. So I put more pressure on the brake, the car tried to go faster, i put both feet on the brake and eventually the car stopped. Whew. No accidents yet but that is a very scary scary experience. I would say that BMW definitely has a design problem. Has anyone ever experienced this USA in with a manual xmission? In any case the dealer has so far been useless in addressing this problem.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*Make YOUR complaint effective at SaferCar.gov*



insound said:


> we have a 128i 2013 with 19,000 original miles. This USA (Unintentional Sudden Acceleration) problem has occurred randomly over the car's 19,000 mile history 3 times. Each time it was when we were coasting to a stop, right fooot off the gas pedal, and on the brake pedal . The speed was under 10 MPH when the car began to accelerate. So I put more pressure on the brake, the car tried to go faster, i put both feet on the brake and eventually the car stopped. Whew. No accidents yet but that is a very scary scary experience. I would say that BMW definitely has a design problem. Has anyone ever experienced this USA in with a manual xmission? In any case the dealer has so far been useless in addressing this problem.


SaferCar.gov

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml


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## RonBurgundy (Feb 18, 2016)

insound said:


> we have a 128i 2013 with 19,000 original miles. This USA (Unintentional Sudden Acceleration) problem has occurred randomly over the car's 19,000 mile history 3 times. Each time it was when we were coasting to a stop, right fooot off the gas pedal, and on the brake pedal . The speed was under 10 MPH when the car began to accelerate. So I put more pressure on the brake, the car tried to go faster, i put both feet on the brake and eventually the car stopped. Whew. No accidents yet but that is a very scary scary experience. I would say that BMW definitely has a design problem. Has anyone ever experienced this USA in with a manual xmission? In any case the dealer has so far been useless in addressing this problem.


Look at your floor mats. There is conceivable way why or how pressing harder on the brake would make your or any other car accelerate faster. Unless your floor mat is possibly pushing on the accelerator, or you've inadvertently pushed on the accelerator while trying to apply the brakes. #theend

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

RonBurgundy said:


> Look at your floor mats. There is conceivable way why or how pressing harder on the brake would make your or any other car accelerate faster. Unless your floor mat is possibly pushing on the accelerator, or you've inadvertently pushed on the accelerator while trying to apply the brakes. #theend


This. :thumbup:
I had this happen in our Audi Allroad. Knowing the floor mat might be an issue, I reached down and adjusted it back toward my seat. VOILA! It stopped!

Try next time reaching down and pulling the floor mat back.



insound said:


> Has anyone ever experienced this USA in with a manual xmission?


It's not possible with manual transmission. If you depress the clutch pedal, the engine is disengaged from the drivetrain. The throttle can rev all it wants without moving the car at all.

Manual transmissions rule. :thumbup:


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## insound (Jun 1, 2017)

Appreciate the constructive inputs. We just dropped the USA-afflicted 128i at our dealers. They seemed to have taken the problem seriously ths time and plan to have BMW engineers look at it. Will post the results in about 2 weeks (dealer's estimate).


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## Diamanta (Aug 22, 2017)

insound said:


> Appreciate the constructive inputs. We just dropped the USA-afflicted 128i at our dealers. They seemed to have taken the problem seriously ths time and plan to have BMW engineers look at it. Will post the results in about 2 weeks (dealer's estimate).


What was the result? I just encountered this type of acceleration with my 2017 330i xdrive wagon while pulling into a parking spot and am very concerned.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Diamanta said:


> What was the result? I just encountered this type of acceleration with my 2017 330i xdrive wagon while pulling into a parking spot and am very concerned.


Document your concerns

SaferCar.gov

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml


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## insound (Jun 1, 2017)

BMW North America called with the results: "there is no problem with the car". " If the driver experienced USA it must have been his fault: either foot on the gas or a floor mat". I explained to the BMW rep that I had both of my feet on the brake pedal and that the floor mat was not pressing on the gas. They ignored my input.

I raised the possibility of a voltage transient (ref, Dr Belt) that might upset the logic circuits that control the flow of gasoline into the engine. The BMW rep told me that was not possible because there is no logic that can be upset to cause USA. When I asked the dealer's head mechanic about this he said there most certainly is logic that controls the fuel flow. 

So i have these contradictions from BMW and don't know how to sort them out.

I now shift into neutral when slowing down so i am not too worried about recurring USA. But what if USA were to happen at highway speeds? Does anyone know how to contact Dr Belt? Since he has researched the transient voltage problem I wanted to know if USA can or has happened at highway speeds?


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## Diamanta (Aug 22, 2017)

Doug Huffman said:


> Document your concerns
> 
> SaferCar.gov
> 
> https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml


I have not yet done so because I am waiting to hear back from BMW in hopes they can resolve this issue. Basically, I was pulling nose first into a parking space at work, in a parking garage where I have parked for more than 6 years, and the car auto-accelerated into the end of the parking spot in the same way it does when I have the adaptive cruise control on--it was not on although the other "intelligent safety" features supposedly were. Ironically, the collision control sensor got smushed--it did not activate (ie, alert me that a collision was impending and automatically apply the brake like it is supposed to). I forcefully applied the brake after I got over the shock of what was going on, but not before hitting the barrier and crunching not only the collision control sensor but also my front license plate and holder and incurring some not-insignificant scratches on the bumper. Thankfully, the airbags did not deploy, but my purse--which had been sitting on the front passenger seat--ended up on the floor and the center armrest in the backseat popped out of its slot.

I did not have my foot on either the gas or brake when this happened as I was idling into the parking spot.

This is basically a brand-new car (it currently has less than 1700 miles) that I bought in June and so I am very careful with it as a result. However, I am having other software issues (navigation and Apple car play)--to the point where the BMW Genius Team has suggested I take it to the dealership for a software re-install--and so I am wondering if my adaptive cruise control and collision control software might also be wonky. It is frightening, but this forum string has at least provided me with some safety options if the car tries to auto-accelerate again before the issue is resolved.


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## jaye944 (Jul 5, 2015)

I'm not reading this full thread but I will say this,

I met up with an ex-cop, who had a 1 series.

He said he had a very alarming issue, where the car just accelerated, he had to stand on the brake to stop it from crashing and it burnt rubber like a mofo till he managed to stop the car.

Standard car, looked after by dealer. He also said he'd heard of another BM owner who had same thing.

BMW couldn't find an issue and it only happened the once, he sold it shortly afterwards



[email protected] said:


> Does BMW have an unintended acceleration issue? Is it possible that BMWs can be having issues like Audi and Toyota had? Look at these 10+ examples of cases where recent model BMWs have accelerated unintentionally on owners, sometimes with disastrous consequence. In the past Audi had problems with it's 5000 model experiencing unintended acceleration. Now, more recently, unintended acceleration has been a hot button issue with Toyota. The ended up having to recalling a massive number of vehicles over the issue. Since that massive recall, uncontrollable acceleration has been on the mind of many motorists. We did some searching and here are some examples of BMW owners who have had this type of issue.
> 
> A 2004 X3, while being driven at around 5 mph, suddenly accelerated unintentionally. According to the report, the driver tried to steer around a parked vehicle, but ended up crashing into the back. The driver ended engaged the parking brake and switched off the car, since it was still wanting to accelerate. This happened to this vehicle four different times. Check out the link for the full bit and other X3 cases: http://www.carproblemzoo.com/bmw/x3/car-accelerates-on-its-own-problems.php
> 
> ...


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## Diamanta (Aug 22, 2017)

insound said:


> BMW North America called with the results: "there is no problem with the car". " If the driver experienced USA it must have been his fault: either foot on the gas or a floor mat". I explained to the BMW rep that I had both of my feet on the brake pedal and that the floor mat was not pressing on the gas. They ignored my input.
> 
> I raised the possibility of a voltage transient (ref, Dr Belt) that might upset the logic circuits that control the flow of gasoline into the engine. The BMW rep told me that was not possible because there is no logic that can be upset to cause USA. When I asked the dealer's head mechanic about this he said there most certainly is logic that controls the fuel flow.
> 
> ...


How long did it take for you to get these unsatisfactory results? We just took my car in, but the engineer won't be onsite until 9/11 and then it may take another two weeks after that...


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## luckstr (Jan 9, 2017)

X5dieselowner said:


> Thanks for reply. In addressing this issue by explaining braking system is
> 
> mechanical, there is no explanation of the inability of the tow truck operator to get the car to move forward after turning the engine back on and placing my X5 in Drive. When he placed his foot on accelerator the RPMs went up but car didn't move and had to be winched aboard tow truck.
> 
> An additional odd note; just before leaving home and experiencing the acceleration incident, the electronic button to lower the rear hatch temporarily stopped responding.


Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2017)

I had an experience this morning backing my X5M into a parking stop using, "top view", where I have been parking every day for twenty years. This parking spot was against a wall. Suddenly, as I was letting the idle of my car carry it towards the wall, the engine accelerated and crashed into the wall. As this was happening, I pressed on the brake but it did nothing. I needed up with considerable damage because there was a brass faucet in the middle of the wall.
I know the skeptics will say I pressed the accelerator instead of the brakes, and there is no defence against this accusation. The computer apparently showed nothing relevant. So all I have is my word. The fact that unintended acceleration seems to be so extremely rare, does not mean it doesn't happen.i
Anybody has facing this experience should make it public so that somebody pays attention.


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## Jaleenly (Apr 3, 2021)

I experienced this yesterday pulling in a parking space at work with serval co workers standing around.I bought a 2014 bmw xdrive 335i gt in January, i arrived at work yesterday and pulled in parking lot braked to pull in a spot and my car accelerated into a cool workers truck jerking to the right into a parked truck , it felt like if I were to have my foot on the gas and brake at same time, but I did not. I drive with one foot my right foot and pulling in a parking spot I wasn’t going in any way fast I was actually braking my way to a slow stop when it suddenly slammed into a parked truck , I am not new at parking and know for a fact I did not hit the gas pedal by mistake. Is anything being done about this? My car was towed to a repair shop where I intend to have this checked out. I’m still in disbelief this happened at all. Feeling very frustrated .


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