# BMW forgot to tell us



## 01silber (Jun 28, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> I don't think that a message that is discussing unions can be considered as a spam. I am hoping that it will be a discussion with appropriate tone without getting personal and name calling.


agreed, this is the bmw community, which should easily include employees of bmw
sorry to hear about the problems, I wish i was more knowlegable in your problems
I saw the pharmacy at the plant when i was there for homecomming, I would have thought that would have been a good thing being that close to work


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## gbelton (Aug 3, 2003)

*Well Said...*

Hello My Friends:

I am glad to hear a fellow New Yorker make sense of things from this thread.

I was onced told, "Never cast judgement until you have walked in another mans shoes!" Try it sometimes. You might not like what you experience.

Good luck BMW Employee.

-GMAN




robg said:


> BMW Employee-
> 
> Many of us in the US, across all industries, share a lot of these problems. I agree, its a disgusting state of affairs. I"m really not sure what the solution is, though. I think a union could probably solve a lot of your problems in the short term. BUt, over time, as the union gains strength its very likey to lead to more and more demands that will eventually cripple the company (look at the airlines or the big 3). HTat being said, it does seem as though BMW Germany has managed just fine with a unionized work force. Out of your complaints, I'm most concerned about the safety issues. Can you and your associates try and get the appropriate government agency to investigate?
> 
> ...


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## car_for_mom (Jul 15, 2002)

BMW Employee,

I am not unsympathetic to your situation; however, I wax ambivalent about unions and unionization.

Yes, all things being equal, employers will exploit, abuse and mistreat workers if (a) they can easily get away with it and (b) it adds significantly to the bottom line. An employer must have an incentive to treat workers fairly: additional business, desire to avoid negative publicity, stockholder pressure, etc. 

Unions, unfortunately, have not kept pace with the times: the tactics and strategies used in coal mines, shop floors, railroads, etc don't translate well to a service-based economy where many workers are also stockholders of the companies they work for. 

At one time, unions were the front-line defense against horrible working conditions and abusive treatment - I'm not so sure that is the case anymore. It seems to me that General Motors, insert-name-of-airline-here, Ford, etc are being hampered more than helped by union demands.

Some unions, such as the SEIU, which represents janitors and targets the large immigrant population among them, are seeing success. However, unions have been largely unsuccessful in penetrating Information Technology (the field that I work in) and other high-wage, high-technology jobs. 

Perhaps you and your fellow workers should also consider an alternative strategy such as pooling your resources to acquire enough stock in order to have a major voice at the stockholders' meeting?


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## BMW Employee (Oct 9, 2005)

I can sense that most people are concerned. I am not the union defense committe. Unions have their fair share of faults as does my church. I appreciate everyones comments on make a better wiser union and use good judgement after you have one, you are right to always use good judgement.

Thanks Alpina for allowing free speach.

We've done our homework. That's why I said I really don't think people understand the U.S. auto industry.

Hyundai -South Korean union made U.S. new plant non-union

KIA - Korean Union Made

BMW Group - European, U.K. and South African union made

VW- all operations are union except Mexico

Mitsubishi - 100% union made worldwide

Honda - Japanese have union, in the U.S. they violate worker rights including the right to organize.

Toyota - Japanese have unions and 1 Nummi plant that is a Joint Venture with GM. Other U.S. operations are non-union because they are silently fighting the right to organize.

Nissan- all operations outside the U.S. are union and it's 2 U.S. plants are non-union and they publically fight workers and the right to organize.

Ford Motor Company - 100% union and is now restructuring because many of it's non-union suppliers have cut too many corners and cost many recalls so Ford is re-doing the supplier list and demands that workers be respected and allowed to organize.

Renault - 100% union and parent company of Nissan.

Fiat- Union

Daimler Chrysler and Mercedes - 100% union except the plant in Tuscaloosa Alabama which is the highest paying auto plant in the U.S. and does allow workers to peacefully organize and demands the same of it's suppliers.

Gm and all operations - Union in every country, except maybe Mexico.

Honda for example has used prison labor, yes prison labor in it's Marysville, Ohio facility. It also did other things. UAW Region 2A fought and pressed them hard until they gave it up. It has the worst record in the U.S. Auto industry and it is getting 3rd world. Here is an excerpt from the UAWHonda worker website, OSHA had this thrown in their lap publically and they did nothing.

http://www.uawhonda.com/HONDA WORKER REPORTS TO BUSH ADMINISTRATION.pdf

As an example, the UAW said that the Statistics of non-union auto making has gotten so bad that there are 15 injuries in non-union U.S. plants for every 1 UAW plant.

The only thing the UAW has not done is publically slammed the foreign companies for the conditions under which they work. BMW is not the worst, Honda is. BMW can get much better. They can tell us we will not be harassed and demand equal and fair treatment which is the U.S. law but also the agreement they signed and the German workers they would enforce. It's only been 6 months.

The biggest hurdle in manufacturing in the U.S. is employers are faced with a high cost of healthcare. AT GM and Ford it is the crippling issue and one that has been keeping millions of workers alive in retirement and out of nursing homes. Other companies get subsidies for this in their homes and the US makes it Employer-worker.

AT BMW two years ago we had a healthcare tab that was called high by our management. Now our managers are as mad as we are because they see through the bottom line. Our healthcare tab is about 25% of GM and Fords Per car. It is not even high in the U.S. Auto Industry and it was told to us to expect major cuts in 2007. Now I have no problem paying part, but can they justify what they are taking from us? We build an X5 for nearly $15,000 and then Germany marks it up tremendously. Imagine the profits.

The caution on making flexibility the priority is true. We are BMW's most Flexible plant except Leipzig, which we will be more flexible soon. We appreciate your concern and can tell you we have exhausted our options. We can't afford to go to Germany and confront shareholders with the news that we are being done wrong because they wanted us to get a union if we wanted one and corporate management has done different.

The pharmacy is okay if you are able to go when it's open or don't have to drive 50 miles or more to get there. It's not open at night or on weekends except a few hours on Saturday. If you have an emergency and need to get 3 filled somewhere at a normal pharmacy then you may end up paying a few hundred dollars more if is not open.

We can iron out any issues if BMW would just respect the agreement they signed and allow us to organize and improve our conditions.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> I don't think that a message that is discussing unions can be considered as a spam. I am hoping that it will be a discussion with appropriate tone without getting personal and name calling.


It ought to be moved to the PolySci forum. :stickpoke


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

BMW Employee-

I'm confused about a few things in your last post.

Are you saying that the Spartanburg managers are also mad about the poor healthcare situation?

If the shareholders already wanted your plant to have the right to organize, why wouldn't it make sense to bring it up at a shareholders meeting again? If corporate management is acting against the shareholders wishes, i'd think that shareholders would want to know this. If I was a shareholder, I would definitely support your right to organize if that's what you wanted.When you say "corporate management" are you referrirng to BMW AG, or just BMW manufacturing corp in the US?


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## crash8168 (May 26, 2004)

BMW Employee said:


> I thank you for allowing us to post.
> 
> As far as how our working conditions are, here is how we are worked and please note the average life expectancy of a BMW worker is only *5* years. We love building the products you drive, and ask you please treat us with respect enough to understand why we have come to this decision. We are not asking for you to do any more than ask the company to obey the law and do what they said. Unions are all we have got left to go to. Please respect us.
> 
> ...


Nearly everybody working could list those same complaints....


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## tagheuer (Jun 10, 2004)

I disagree with your conclusion that you should be unionized, BMW Employee.

As many previous posters correctly noted, unions are a big time problem in the U.S. And I cannot understand why you complain about how its "disgusting" how white collar and blue collar workers are treated in the U.S.

Last time I checked you *chose* to live here. If you don't like it, leave.

I am not sympathetic to your self proclaimed "plight". I live in the Detroit area, and I see assembly line employees making in excess of six figure incomes. They have more vacation than I do, they have more and better benefits than I do, they work fewer hours and they are less educated.

I work 80 to 90 hours a week, I don't have many of the benefits you have etc. I don't complain, that's what I signed on for. I am very thankful to have a job, period. Go somewhere in the world where you can't find a job to save your life, then maybe you can complain. (and yes, I've been to many of those places).

The United States government isn't here to protect you from your employer. If you don't like the employment situation here, leave. If you don't like your job, quit and do something you can handle. No one is forcing you to work, I am sure you (like most Americans) spend much more money than you actually need to live on, and you perceive a need to earn a certain amount of money. That's *your* fault that you have to work so hard to pay for your big house, your big tv and your big, gas guzzling SUV.

Unions are major step backwards, and they cost everyone money.


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## glenmal (Jan 17, 2005)

*Unions once had an important place in America, but*

I don't understand, I am a capitalist and the Union issues belong in the factory. The German's have enough labor problems in Germany without bringing them to the USA. Spartenburg factory could end up in Calcutta!! Maybe the Union guy should read Ayn Rand!  


Alex Baumann said:


> Hello and Welcome to the Bimmerfest.
> 
> Please do not post the same message across the forums.
> 
> ...


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## glenmal (Jan 17, 2005)

*401k is blant baloney!*

Only non-vested portion can be returned to the company. All employee contributions and vested employer money either pass by will on the state of domicile's intestecy laws. Seizure by the company is hog wash. What else is mendacious in the union whiners letter?
:thumbdwn:


crash8168 said:


> Nearly everybody working could list those same complaints....


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## wag-zhp (Apr 8, 2004)

xspeedy said:


> You'll get no support from me. Unions are nothing but large scale blackmail organizations that have led, in part, to the downfall of the US auto industry. US manufacturing has just about completely died off because of unions. US companies can't compete in a global economy when we pay people that spin nuts the same as doctors and lawyers.
> 
> If you don't like the conditions at BMWUSA, then go work for Ford. If you don't like Ford, go work for GM. If you don't like it there, then find a new career.


Ditto.

I grew up in the Detroit area and unions have played a major role in the demise of the US auto industry. The UAW is a corrupt bunch of leg-breaking, greedy thugs that have no interest in the members that they are supposed to serve. There was a time when unions served a valuable service to employees, but that time has passed.


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## wag-zhp (Apr 8, 2004)

xspeedy said:


> I have a somewhat white collar job. I don't get a pension.
> So have mine. Get used to it.
> So, take an hour and write a will.
> I don't get any overtime, but often work sixty hour weeks.
> ...


Many US jobs have moved off shore. Those that remain have seen the scaling back on many employee benefits to remain competitive on a global market. Inviting a union into your shop may help your concerns in the short term, but you will end up in the same condition as GM in the long term.


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

I'm an old union man, worked in a GM plant for several years and my father spent his whole career there, but...unions have their place. They should work for the good of the company first and their job second. For example: Boeing is getting creamed by Airbus...so they go on strike for more money? (The average wage for a Boeing employee is $59,000/yearly, that's a pretty good wage in most parts of this country). Blue collar America better wake up fast, your money is going to the tax collectors/politicians and you're getting little or no return. At least the Germans seem to get something back...excellent roads, good health care and a safe society.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

xspeedy said:


> I have a somewhat white collar job. I don't get a pension.
> 
> So have mine. Get used to it.
> 
> ...


Your salary is probably infinitly greater than those with pensions (This goes for most of you). Right wing is in full force in this thread. Deplorable. You people dont give a rats ass about America. And keep working 60 hrs a week for nothing extra, see what it does to the value of American labor! This forum is getting quite rude and ULTRA conservative! Even a moderator got in on this and called spam? That is out of line. Remember, the Bill Frists of the world are controlling all your Health Care money. And representing your interests in Congress. See what happens to America when you continue to ignore what is right.

MY letter has been sent to BMW Spartanburg.

P.S. The demise of the American auto industry was not the fault of labor, but of mis managment. including complacency in what was imerging as a global economy. (Japan)

Flame away my Nomex is on.


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## e90fanatic (Jul 25, 2005)

woody underwood said:


> I'm an old union man, worked in a GM plant for several years and my father spent his whole career there, but...unions have their place. They should work for the good of the company first and their job second. For example: Boeing is getting creamed by Airbus...so they go on strike for more money? (The average wage for a Boeing employee is $59,000/yearly, that's a pretty good wage in most parts of this country). Blue collar America better wake up fast, your money is going to the tax collectors/politicians and you're getting little or no return. At least the Germans seem to get something back...excellent roads, good health care and a safe society.


I agree with woody. Unions are good for employees but afterwards they just end up screwing the employer. Just look at the airlines and the big 3. Americans should understand how to appreciate their jobs, otherwise go find another one. If you have to complaint and ask for sympathy, go find other jobs for your own sake. Do what you love, love what you do. All you are doing is driving investments out of the country by increasing labor costs, and they don't even pay less than they should. This is the wrong place to post your complaints. It's mostly for car enthusiasts and BMW lovers.

A very good example was Carrier...they moved one of their manufacturing facility and laid off all of their workers.


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## BobbiOh (Sep 27, 2005)

My grandfather was a union steward for most of his life. In the 80's he told me that the Unions had out lived their usefulness. And I agree.

I'm a corporate travel manager. Did you support travel agencies when the airlines refused to pay us commission for selling their product? We protested and filed anti-trust suits all over the place, but most people could have cared less. Allow me point out a few things:



BMW Employee said:


> Our pension plans have been gutted by over 45%.


 Hmmm, well our Pension Plan was cut out in 1990's when airlines first starting cutting commissions. The company stopped any contributions to our 401ks after 9/11. If I were you, I'd be thankful that I still have a pension fund.



> Our medical plans have been changed continously.


 So has ours. It's part of corporate life.



> Our 401k plans (our Money) can now be seized by the company when we die, if we don't have a will.


 Well, I'll go with you on this one. However, if you die without a will, depending on circumstances the state gets your money anyway.



> We have lost all of our overtime benefits.


 I'll one up this ante. Not only does working overtime here gain you a black mark in your employee file, but we all had to take a 30% pay cut after 9/11 in order to keep our jobs.



> We now have to get prescriptions filled at the company pharmacy or pay redicoulous co-pays.


 We all have to pay co-pays, at least you have a company pharmacy.



> We are made to work off the clock by putting on work gear that is supposed to be paid time. Some workers are deprived of more.


 There are two sides to this. I don't get paid until I'm at my desk ready to work. But, that amount of time is neglible. The construction industry works much the same as job and I've never thought that it's the right thing to do. However, keep in mind that even the Union construction jobs have that same mentality.



> Over 1500 workers no longer work for BMW.


 50% of travel agencies went out of business.



> Many are injured permanently. Some people have got 3 rotor cuff surgeries and they get put in jobs that are worse on them.


 Sounds like they should be talking to a lawyer, not a union.



> Probably thousands have carpel tunnel syndrome.


 Just a like a lot of other industries. I have 10% of my agents in wrists braces. Why? Because since we no longer get paid commissions, we get paid by the client based on transactions and in order to keep the company solvent, we have to produce more. I'll be the first person to say that employees shouldn't have to suffer for the company to survive. But, if you think you're the only people going through this, you need to wake up.

So here's the reality, the things you're whining about, a lot of people don't even have. Even with the cuts, you have more than most people have. I'm reasonably sure that the people that lost their jobs (and everything else) due to Katrina would love to have your job.

With a union, the only people that truly benefit are the union leaders. Just think how much money it adds up to when they take out those dues. Oh, and don't forget, they'll make campaign contributions to politicians with your money, whether you like it or not.


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## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

BMW Employee:
"Negotiating pay and benefits that are concurrent with other U.S. Auto companies"

Most US Auto companies are bankcrupt. What you need to look at is the prevailing wage in the area you are located in. For a person living in the SC area, is BMW a good pay-master compared to others?

Changes in benefits and healthcare are going on all over America; you are not alone. The 401K issue is governed by state and federal law and not BMW.

Can you point us to *reliable* unbiased data which shows how the safety standards in the BMW SC plant compare with:
- BMW plants world over
- Union plants in the US
- Non-Union plants in the US

There is an inherent risk of injury in any profession. If the non-Union BMW plant is doing worse than others then it makes sense. However in the absence of any reliable information, it is all conjecture that safety is an issue.


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## BobbiOh (Sep 27, 2005)

I also found this:



> The 10-year-old BMW manufacturing plant in Spartanburg, where the X5 sports activity vehicle and Z4 roadster are assembled offer production workers a base wage of $16.25 and $23.40 after two years. A new skilled trade worker makes $22.80 hourly and $27.15 after two years.


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## Rmart (Feb 20, 2002)

*Unions are for losers.*

The company owes you nothing. If you don't like it leave.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Wow. Sure can tell who is in management. 

I wonder how many of you would be pleased to buy an M3 made from ununionized labor made anywhere other than Germany?

Sure you may get a better deal, but you get what you pay for.

The fact that 100% of all BMW Germany emplyees are unionized and Americans are not. Says a lot to me about how BMW feels about American workers.

The only thing protecting American workers is themselves. It sure isnt corporate America. While corporate executive's salaries and bonuses are at record levels, there is no room for the worker. 
:tsk:


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## TJS///M3 (Sep 13, 2004)

misterlance said:


> The fact that 100% of all BMW Germany emplyees are unionized and Americans are not. Says a lot to me about how BMW feels about American workers.


Actually it says alot to me about how BMW feels about American Unions.

I'm a consultant, and I work on projects with unionized labor all the time. 9 times out 10, the union causes all the problems/delays on a project due to mandatory personnel and job tasks, and this substantially increases the overall cost of a project. Not only that, but they refuse to deal with subcontractors/suppliers that are non-union, even if they have the superior product. It doesnt matter to them, they would rather have the project quality suffer rather than deal with non-union products/suppliers.

Sorry, I'm not a union fan.


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

misterlance said:


> Wow. Sure can tell who is in management.
> 
> I wonder how many of you would be pleased to buy an M3 made from ununionized labor made anywhere other than Germany?
> 
> ...


The fact that 100% of German workers are unionized doesn't mean BMW feels differently about American workers. I am sure if BMW have a choice they will not want a union in Germany either.

Why would I feel that unionized workers can make a better car? If anything, I think unionized workers are actually worse workers because they are protected by their contracts and thus may have less incentive to work as hard. Afterall, it is very costly to fire an incompetent unionized worker.

Granted, some companies treat their workers better (or worse) than others. If you don't like the way your company treats their employees, then just go find a job at a company that treats their employees better.

Oh, the skilled labor issue. Who taught you those skills? Right, BMW (or the auto manufacturer) did, probably for free. In the mean time, the worker advances through the ranks and get regular raises. Who taught a doctor his or her skills? Four years of med school which cost at least 200k, and one year of internship making about 20k per year, then depending on the specialty maybe four years of residency making 40 - 50k per year. The doctor made the choice to become a doctor. The BMW worker makes the choice to work at a BMW plant.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Galun said:


> The fact that 100% of German workers are unionized doesn't mean BMW feels differently about American workers. *I am sure if BMW have a choice they will not want a union in Germany either.*
> Why would I feel that unionized workers can make a better car? If anything, I think unionized workers are actually worse workers because they are protected by their contracts and thus may have less incentive to work as hard. Afterall, it is very costly to fire an incompetent unionized worker.
> 
> *Granted, some companies treat their workers better (or worse) than others. If you don't like the way your company treats their employees, then just go find a job at a company that treats their employees better.*
> ...


1.Sure the Corporate leaches would like to abolish unions. Lets not ask the German citizens. 

2. I would think skilled and happy workers make a much better product then slave labor. I dont know, could be wrong.

3. You arent comparing facctory workers to F-n doctors are you? Obviously, there is no comparison. And everyone cant be a doctor.

Reading this thread really lets me know how imortant it is to vote. It is apparent that there is a lot of people who dont care about the majority of people in America. And they would like to give the corporations a free pass to rape America, like they have been.


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

misterlance said:


> 1.Sure the Corporate leaches would like to abolish unions. Lets not ask the German citizens.
> 
> 2. I would think skilled and happy workers make a much better product then slave labor. I dont know, could be wrong.
> 
> ...


1) You have taken my words out of context. I am merely stating a fact - no corporation wants unionization of thier workers if they can avoid it. In a previous post, you were stating that BMW AG is treating German workers differently than American workers. I believe that is not the case.

2) Are they slave labor? At $27.15 per hour after two years in South Carolina, I don't think so. A software enginner with two years of experience in the bay area makes less than that. Can someone be a "skilled and happy" but non-unionized labor? I have not been in their shoes so I don't know. But I certainly don't think they are slave labor. And I believe non-unionized labors will perform better in their work compared to unionized labor since they do not have the union safety net.

3) No, I am not comparing factory workers to skilled doctors. I guess my point wasn't so clear. I am trying to say that factory workers gain their essential job skills from the very place that they claim to be treating them very badly. For most other professions, we have to go get an education on our own, at our own expense.

Please elaborate on your last point on how this bunch of people who does not care about the "majority" of Americans have given corporations a free pass to rape America like they have been.


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## BobbiOh (Sep 27, 2005)

misterlance said:


> 2. I would think skilled and happy workers make a much better product then slave labor. I dont know, could be wrong.


 I don't think $48k a year for a production worker is slave labor. It's more than most people make. And in an area where the median house price is $127K, that's doing quite well.

Skilled and happy has nothing to do with union. The skills, 90% of the time, are taught by the employer so that's a null point. I think Unions breed discontentment for their own profit. I've yet to see any strike in recent years that came out better for the worker. The worker ends up losing their credit rating, their lifestyle and frequently their homes and ends up getting the same or less than what they were initially offered.

And by the way, I'm a liberal.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Galun said:


> 1) You have taken my words out of context. I am merely stating a fact - no corporation wants unionization of thier workers if they can avoid it. In a previous post, you were stating that BMW AG is treating German workers differently than American workers. I believe that is not the case.
> 
> 2) Are they slave labor? At $27.15 per hour after two years in South Carolina, I don't think so. A software enginner with two years of experience in the bay area makes less than that.
> 
> ...


1. That is the point. You should see how well the German workers have it. Just speaking from a working environment. Im not even talking about the disparity in benefits. Which I agree is more attributed to Germanys more socialistic approach.

2. You are talking about the top of the scale. And I tell you what, software engineers around here START in the $70,000 region a year.

3. I see what you are saying, but I feel it is in invalid point. Skilled Doctors will NEVER have trouble finding decent paying work pretty much anywhere. Granted our litiguos country sure has limited the income potential of doctors. But still. 

Well the majority of America is lower middle class. And with the current political situation of America, it is apparent that corporations and executives have too much power and too much money. And there is little or no recourse for the average worker.

With people like Bill Frist and Ken Delay in control of this country the raping is underway.

I wonder how much more war, poverty, raping, and pillaging we will have to endure.

Have you heard of Wal-Mart?


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## e90fanatic (Jul 25, 2005)

You can NEVER compare German wages to SC's wages because of something that you should have learned in school, it's called standard of living. Munich is actually ranked in the top ten most expensive cities to live in unlike SC cities. Just the gas prices already explains most of it. Seriously, if they don't like it, just leave. Nobody is pointing a gun at their heads. The national average salary is below $30k annually so $48k for a factory worker is quite a lot already.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

I worked for over 40 years as a tool and die maker in both union and non union shops and both have there good and bad points.
Some points, union shops that I worked under UAW,Teamsters.Electrical Workers and a few others.Most of the contracts are cut and dry but at contract time you have to fight for everything you get. You have to pay union dues.
You find a lot more slackers in a union shop.
Non union shops are mostly put and take and the browner you nose is the more you get. You don't have to pay union dues.
Good luck in who ever you work for but in anycase be thank full you have a job to go to.
cheers
vern


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## e90fanatic (Jul 25, 2005)

vern said:


> I worked for over 40 years as a tool and die maker in both union and non union shops and both have there good and bad points.
> Some points, union shops that I worked under UAW,Teamsters.Electrical Workers and a few others.Most of the contracts are cut and dry but at contract time you have to fight for everything you get. You have to pay union dues.
> You find a lot more slackers in a union shop.
> Non union shops are mostly put and take and the browner you nose is the more you get. You don't have to pay union dues.
> ...


Definitely agree


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

e90fanatic said:


> You can NEVER compare German wages to SC's wages because of something that you should have learned in school, it's called standard of living. Munich is actually ranked in the top ten most expensive cities to live in unlike SC cities. Just the gas prices already explains most of it.* Seriously, if they don't like it, just leave. Nobody is pointing a gun at their heads.* The national average salary is below $30k annually so $48k for a factory worker is quite a lot already.
> 
> As for executive incomes, everybody creates their own opportunity. If you decide to be a factory worker your entire life, nobody can help you. Ranting is definitely not a way. That's why people go to universities and colleges for further extended education.


Who was comparing actual wages? Just simply quality of "working conditions" and benefits.

And the "if you dont like it leave" arguement is getting nauseating. Buy your own opinion.

MOST people do what they can to make their situation better. BMW Employee said he/she loves to be working where he/she is at. I dont fault them for wanting what BMW gives to their German employees. How can you?

And the executive incomes. Even with coporations going Chapter 11 we are seeing huge executive salaries and bonuses. Even when the companies arent even making payroll. These actions are criminal. Lets not even get into the insider trading of executive stock options. Because it is off subject like most of the arguments against BMW Employee.

Its just sad what coporate America has gotten away with. Especially when we speak of the airlines. It wasnt the unionized pilots who have destroyed these companies. It is the piss poor management. With no regard to the future, just current profit margins.

Every business owner should know that the best assets they have are the employees.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

vern said:


> I worked for over 40 years as a tool and die maker in both union and non union shops and both have there good and bad points.
> Some points, union shops that I worked under UAW,Teamsters.Electrical Workers and a few others.Most of the contracts are cut and dry but at contract time you have to fight for everything you get. You have to pay union dues.
> You find a lot more slackers in a union shop.
> Non union shops are mostly put and take and the browner you nose is the more you get. You don't have to pay union dues.
> ...


There are downsides to everything. But generalizing does no good for anyone. You have to look at individual issues and situations. We all have heard the horrors of union intimidation. But there have been huge success to both worker quality of life and retirement. Though with the current admin and their chronies, we have seen the biggest raping of the American worker ever. Do you deny it?

I have had bad experience with unions as well. But they do insure that the "good ole boy club" is nonexistent.

We need people to stand up for people against the corporate juggernauts. People that cant acknowledge this make my :jawdrop: .


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

misterlance said:


> There are downsides to everything. But generalizing does no good for anyone. You have to look at individual issues and situations. We all have heard the horrors of union intimidation. But there have been huge success to both worker quality of life and retirement. Though with the current admin and their chronies, we have seen the biggest raping of the American worker ever. Do you deny it?
> 
> I have had bad experience with unions as well. But they do insure that the "good ole boy club" is nonexistent.
> 
> We need people to stand up for people against the corporate juggernauts. People that cant acknowledge this make my :jawdrop: .


I'll make your day! But in the END the company OWNER wins out most of the time with or without a union.
cheers
vern


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

vern said:


> But in the END the company OWNER wins out most of the time with or without a union.
> cheers
> vern


Agreed. Unions dont make or break companies.


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

BMW Employee said:


> South Carolina has very little worker protections in place. This has been ongoing for a long time and is not BMW's fault. It is a right to work state and in a nutshell any company can fire you for anything they want and then you go to the unemployment office and .....you are not entitled to unemployment because S.C. is a right to work state. We have no rights like other states.
> .


I've worked with union workers over the years; my dad was a in a trade union all his working life. However, I've seen the downside. I've been to a place where it takes three people to change a simple part, because it required a plumber (for a simple air line), a mechanic (for two screws) and an electrian (for one electrical connector). This is not an exaggeration, but something I personally witnessed. Or, I've been yelled at for moving a pallet truck that someone left in front of the machine I needed access, so I broke union rules and moved it five feet. Also, I've seen companies unable to get rid of or even punish unproductive or damaging employees, again because of the unions. All the while watching unskilled labor getting paid significantly more than me. So don't mind me if I don't shed a tear for you. I live in a right-to-work state too, but I believe in earning my keep.


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

misterlance said:


> I have had bad experience with unions as well. But they do insure that the "good ole boy club" is nonexistent.


That's not my experience with unions. We had a customer where the control screen of a machine kept getting damaged, and they wanted us to replace it under warranty. After a coworker of mine replaced the screen, he noticed the operator punching the screen violently every time the machine made a noise. He reported to the engineer who was his contact in the plant and the operator was walked out the door. However, when they tried to fire the guy (he had a history), some "buddy" of his had cleaned out his personel file, so they couldn't touch him and he was back on the job the next day. The union stewart walked up to my coworker and said for his safey, its best he left and never came back. That's not a "good ole boy club"?


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

cwsqbm said:


> I've been to a place where it takes three people to change a simple part, because it required a plumber (for a simple air line), a mechanic (for two screws) and an electrian (for one electrical connector).


I love the unions at convention centers, where an electrician needs to be called to plug a lamp into an existing outlet.

What crap.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

cwsqbm said:


> I've worked with union workers over the years; my dad was a in a trade union all his working life. However, I've seen the downside. I've been to a place where it takes three people to change a simple part, because it required a plumber (for a simple air line), a mechanic (for two screws) and an electrian (for one electrical connector). This is not an exaggeration, but something I personally witnessed. Or, I've been yelled at for moving a pallet truck that someone left in front of the machine I needed access, so I broke union rules and moved it five feet. Also, I've seen companies unable to get rid of or even punish unproductive or damaging employees, again because of the unions. All the while watching unskilled labor getting paid significantly more than me. So don't mind me if I don't shed a tear for you. I live in a right-to-work state too, but I believe in earning my keep.


So you have seen the downsides. What about the upsides? Again generalizing about unions from your limited experience seems foolish. Again, can none of you see the value of maintaining worker's rights? Or even fair treatment within a company?


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

cwsqbm said:


> .... I've seen the downside. I've been to a place where it takes three people to change a simple part, because it required a plumber (for a simple air line), a mechanic (for two screws) and an electrian (for one electrical connector). This is not an exaggeration, but something I personally witnessed. Or, I've been yelled at for moving a pallet truck that someone left in front of the machine I needed access, so I broke union rules and moved it five feet. Also, I've seen companies unable to get rid of or even punish unproductive or damaging employees, again because of the unions. All the while watching unskilled labor getting paid significantly more than me. So don't mind me if I don't shed a tear for you. I live in a right-to-work state too, but I believe in earning my keep.


 :bustingup :bustingup I have seem the SAME THING  Isn't it ironic??!!


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## xspeedy (Apr 10, 2003)

misterlance said:


> So you have seen the downsides. What about the upsides? Again generalizing about unions from your limited experience seems foolish. Again, can none of you see the value of maintaining worker's rights? Or even fair treatment within a company?


I think the whole justification for unions as worker's rights protection is outdated. How many of us are really mistreated? Do you define rights as wages and benefits? These aren't rights - they are compensation for services rendered. If someone doesn't like the deal, then they can leave. If unions were really about what you say, then wages/benefits would never be the hot topic with management/union disputes.


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## BobbiOh (Sep 27, 2005)

California is also an "Employment at will" state. It's not rare, it's actually the norm.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

xspeedy said:


> I think the whole justification for unions as worker's rights protection is outdated. *How many of us are really mistreated?* Do you define rights as wages and benefits? These aren't rights - they are compensation for services rendered. If someone doesn't like the deal, then they can leave. *If unions were really about what you say, then wages/benefits would never be the hot topic with management/union disputes*.


A lot. I soppose you have never lost a job unfairly. Luck for you.

And its about wages, benefits, and working conditions. Its about a fair working environment.

Lets not forget these airline companies declaring Chapter 11 and bankruptcy purely to get out of paying union pensions. But hey why should you care? We as taxpayers will only have to foot the bill because of the Federal pension insurance.

And back to the topic:

What do you all have to say about BMW America having a 50% turnover rate? I suppose this specialized training is not so valuable. These people are not "skilled" labor, they are simply labor. The term "skilled labor" does not apply to assy. line workers. It refers to:tool and dye makers, pattern makers, machinists, and the alike. Doctor, lawyers, nurses, ets, are skilled professinals. You people are completely wrong to think you are even near the same situation as HOURLY LABOR.

And I would hope that you people working 90 hrs a week on salary have an astronomical salary. Or else I feal sorry for the homelife you have and the homelife you insuring for your children.

Have any of heard of current DOL overtime exempt rules recently approved by the GOP admin.?

Just one more blow to the American worker.


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## mattldm (Feb 7, 2004)

BMW Employee said:


> I thank you for allowing us to post.
> 
> As far as how our working conditions are, here is how we are worked and please note the average life expectancy of a BMW worker is only *5* years. We love building the products you drive, and ask you please treat us with respect enough to understand why we have come to this decision. We are not asking for you to do any more than ask the company to obey the law and do what they said. Unions are all we have got left to go to. Please respect us.
> 
> ...


My suggestion would be to consider another avenue of employment. I would also suggest that you consider some form education like college and or vocational training. With an education many other job positions will open up for you. Dont feel that a Union is your only way to make a living. Skilled and knowledgable employees are worth their weight in gold to non union employers.

Unions, for the most part, are enablers for less than desirable employees, and do absolutely nothing for the good, hard working employees.

If you feel that a union is your only option, please seek a job with a different company.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

mattldm said:


> My suggestion would be to consider another avenue of employment. I would also suggest that you consider some form education like college and or vocational training. With an education many other job positions will open up for you. Dont feel that a Union is your only way to make a living. Skilled and knowledgable employees are worth their weight in gold to non union employers.
> 
> Unions, for the most part, are enablers for less than desirable employees, and do absolutely nothing for the good, hard working employees.
> 
> If you feel that a union is your only option, please seek a job with a different company.


So people should up and quit instead of trying to make a better place for everyone?

Have you ever thought that some factory workers wouldnt do well in College. Hence the factory job?

It is obvious that this person likes BMW, they just want to be treated fairly.

The American way is to work within a situation to change it. Not just leave and give up. Sooner or later someone is going to have to fight these battles.

Why not now?

I wish some more of the people who need and rely on unions could/would speak here. But it is obvious as to which socio/economic class posts here. What is even more obvious is how they feel about the common man.

I am heartbroken.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

misterlance said:


> So people should up and quit instead of trying to make a better place for everyone?
> 
> Have you ever thought that some factory workers wouldnt do well in College. Hence the factory job?
> 
> ...


I agree w/ you. Not everyone can be a CEO, doctor, lawyer, etc-- nor could we have a viable society if that were the case. As a civilized society (more or less), we should do more to protect those with less power from those w/ more power. THe power/money imbalance in this country is getting ridiculous. The more we accept these things, the worse it'll get. Unions have problems, sure. But, allowing corporations to have too much power is worse.

For better and worse, we have the attitude in this country that "you can make it big if you work hard enough". This is a great motivator, and one of the reasons that the US is so successful. But, the flip-side of this is that we're intolerant of people w/ less power and money-- and unsupportive of policies that could help such people.


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

misterlance said:


> So people should up and quit instead of trying to make a better place for everyone?
> 
> Have you ever thought that some factory workers wouldnt do well in College. Hence the factory job?
> 
> ...


Firstly, when is life ever fair? Geez, come on. If you don't like it, find another job!

Secondly, What is the standard of being treated fairly? Germany standards? Germany quality of life and benefits? How about comparing to Sweden where they have like a 70% tax rate but you get unlimited benefits from the government? You cannot compare standards across countries - because a worker cannot relocate to another country most of the time. You should compare the conditions of auto manufacturing plant A to auto manufacturing plant B within South Carolina.

Thirdly, they are just poor assembly line workers being mistreated right? Someone had stated that a second year skilled labor makes about 27 per hour and an assembly line worker makes about 22 per hour at a BMW factory. That's 56k per year for the skilled labor and 46k for the "unskilled" assembly line worker. Here's the median salary for different types of jobs in South Carolina. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-5027/fid-6886 An operations manager makes 53k. A laborer makes 19k. The BMW plant worker's salary is by no means low by any standards. A better comparison will be to compare BMW's salary to other auto manufacturing plants, unionized an non-unionized. But if conditions at BMW are so poor, what's to prevent someone from moving to a unionized plant? Right, BMW has 50% turnover rate. People are indeed leaving for a better job. But it also means there are plenty of people lining up for an opportunity to replace those who leave.

If you want to talk about airlines... tell me how it is not the pilot union's fault but management's fault that United Airlines went bankrupt. Look up "summer of hell" and "united" on the internet. United pilots went on strike in the summer of 2000, which eventually resulted in an immediate 25% pay raise and 4% annual raise for the next four years. It also resulted in 25,000 cancelled flights, and the loss of many loyal and high yielding customers. People see no reason to stick with such an airline and many never came back. Personally, after a 26 hour delay in Tokyo airport in the summer of 2000, thanks to cancellation of my original flight and a replacement flight, I didn't get on another United plane until around 2003. 9/11 just accelerated the downfall of United. The summer of hell was the root cause. The pilot union was the cause of the summer of hell. I think most other airline unions now actually understand that business discription does not work in the airline industry. I think that's why the Northwest pilot and flight attendents didn't go on strike with the mechanics in August of this year, and there was no disruption to the business. Maybe they understand that having a pay cut is better than having no job. Hey, these Northwest mechanics and janitors who went on strike and got fired can now try to go work for non-unionized southwest with much lower wages and benefits.


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## 06graphite (Jul 11, 2005)

In one of the early posts it was mentioned that the BMW employees in Germany are unionized.

Does anyone here know why all German manufacturers are required by law to allow unions?

After the second World War, the Allied governments (US, UK, and France) required that all German manufacturers allow / be unionized. This was done to ensure that the German economy could never again support a large scale war. ENOUGH SAID.

An old roommate of mine, whose family owned a musical instrument manufacturing company in Southern Germany, told me that.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

06graphite said:


> In one of the early posts it was mentioned that the BMW employees in Germany are unionized.
> 
> Does anyone here know why all German manufacturers are required by law to allow unions?
> 
> ...


Award for most pulled out of ass post goes to...


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Galun said:


> Firstly, when is life ever fair? Geez, come on. If you don't like it, find another job!
> 
> Secondly, What is the standard of being treated fairly? Germany standards? Germany quality of life and benefits? How about comparing to Sweden where they have like a 70% tax rate but you get unlimited benefits from the government? You cannot compare standards across countries - because a worker cannot relocate to another country most of the time. You should compare the conditions of auto manufacturing plant A to auto manufacturing plant B within South Carolina.
> 
> ...


I dont know how Sweden Got into this. But have you been to Sweden? Or Germany for that matter? These are heavily socialistic countries by America's standards. It seems they value their citizens, or maybe their citizen value each other. Quite the contrast to this country where everyone is out for themselves and the right now.

Dont worry though, your children will take care of it.


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## BobbiOh (Sep 27, 2005)

misterlance said:


> But it is obvious as to which socio/economic class posts here.


 Yes, shocking that a BMW board would be full of people in the middle class bracket and up.



> What is even more obvious is how they feel about the common man.


 Bottom line is that you have no idea how people here feel about anything because you don't know us in person.

The reality is this: This man has so much more than so many other people. My personal view is that he should be grateful he has it, when so many do not.

Look at the Habitat for Humanity income standards. We've been working on houses in San Diego county. The income limit to qualify for one of these houses is $37K for a family of four in an area where the median home price is over $500k. I'm wondering how these people manage to survive before they get their Habitat house. There's your "common man". At $48K in an area where the median home price is $127K, a single income home qualifies for a home worth $144K, 13% over median.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

BobbiOh said:


> Yes, shocking that a BMW board would be full of people in the middle class bracket and up.
> 
> Bottom line is that you have no idea how people here feel about anything because you don't know us in person.
> 
> ...


Somebody has to serve you your Qtr Pounders w/ extra CHEEZY. Do you want Carl's Jr to go out of business because they cant get any 10.00 hr employees to commute 100+miles to work. It is amazing you people. How are you going to pay your garbage and policemen to protect your entitled self from all the poor people around you? It's funny and sad how you could bring up the California housing market to prove your point.


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## Pock (Apr 3, 2005)

A few ideas; if I display ignorance, I'd appreciate correction.

First, comparing unions from nation to nation--and, to a lesser degree, state to state--is somewhat pointless. The rights of unionized workers, and the abilities of a union, are provided by the government, and different governments provide different rights. South Carolina, for instance, has management-favorable rules when compared to the other USA states, but the oddities allowed by federally-mandated union powers ("three workers to plug in a lightbulb") may not be allowed in otherwise more labor-friendly jurisdictions, such as I expect European nations to have. Insofar as workers claim that "Korea autoworkers are unionized; therefore, we should unionized," I suspect the union executives--the people who live off of union dues--have successfully employed propaganda.

(By the way, BobbiOh, "right to work" is completely different from "employment at will." Right-to-work laws basically say that any worker can join a unionized workforce and enjoy union benefits without joining the union and without paying union dues; the alternative is basically to require workers in a unionized environment to pay union dues. Right-to-work laws are basically anti-union as they allow freeloading: what individual wouldn't want to enjoy the benefits of a union without wanting to pay union dues?; but, on aggregate, if everyone makes the choice to be a freeloader, the union starves out and dies. Employment at will refers to an employment arrangement where either party can leave (management can fire and labor can quit) at any time and for any reason; this is the default state of employment relationships, so far as I know, in every US jurisdiction; the alternative is for employer and employee to sign a contract that limits their respective rights to fire and quit.)

Second, the ideal function of a union is to efficiently police workers' rights. OSHA, for instance, doesn't do much; it can't do much; it shouldn't have to do much. This crowd has demonstrated itself to lean somewhat conservative, so I suspect I will meet support with this idea: we don't want to create massive government bureaucracies to police labor conditions when the laborors themselves can much more efficiently achieve the same end. The question ultimately is what sort of protections to we want to provide for labor?

To that end, I am wondering: what is BMW doing that is illegal? The primary complaint I have read here that concerns me is that BMW is illegally interfering with the unionization process. BMW is certainly allowed to actively oppose unionization, to some extent; likewise, the union is allowed to encourage unionization, but, again, not by any means necessary.

Me, I have some--but not much--faith in our legislative process. Yes, the labor laws were written toward manual, fungible labor in a time when labor was less at liberty to vote with their feet and less able to both inform the outside world and be informed by the outside world as to their situation. But, still, (a) management will tend to treat workers inhumanely and (b) laborers are often laborers because of lack of opportunity. [The "love it or leave it" mentality, applied to politics or, as here, labor, is utterly fascist: the experiment of America is that people can improve their lot; people improve their lot in part by seeking out greener pastures, sure, but also by trying to improve the place they're at; the very notion of democracy (and the very underpinning of free market economics) depends on open expression of disagreement and freedom of information in order to benefit the minds of a people individually and collectively; "loving it" means trying to improve it.] Our laws do need updating, but just because they are imperfect doesn't mean that unions should be categorically shunned.

If a union provides a voice for the workers, that should allow BMW to operate more efficiently. And if unionization causes more humane treatment of laborors, I will gladly pay more for that union product. I understand that unions are headaches for management, but some balance must be struck. I think that balance is in favor of unionization, if laborers so desire, seeing as how management has the ability to offer benefits to undermine the unionization effort.

I realize that I came late to the party, but I'd be interested in having an articulate discussion with anyone who is willing to discuss why they disagree with me.


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## BobbiOh (Sep 27, 2005)

Pock said:


> A few ideas; if I display ignorance, I'd appreciate correction.
> 
> (By the way, BobbiOh, "right to work" is completely different from "employment at will."


 I know the difference. That was in response to the "can be fired for any reason" comment.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Pock said:


> A few ideas; if I display ignorance, I'd appreciate correction.
> 
> First, comparing unions from nation to nation--and, to a lesser degree, state to state--is somewhat pointless. The rights of unionized workers, and the abilities of a union, are provided by the government, and different governments provide different rights. South Carolina, for instance, has management-favorable rules when compared to the other USA states, but the oddities allowed by federally-mandated union powers ("three workers to plug in a lightbulb") may not be allowed in otherwise more labor-friendly jurisdictions, such as I expect European nations to have. Insofar as workers claim that "Korea autoworkers are unionized; therefore, we should unionized," I suspect the union executives--the people who live off of union dues--have successfully employed propaganda.
> 
> ...


Quoted for permanancy. I wish I could be as articulate.

Finally, someone with empathy for the common man among us. How refreshing to read a truly eloquent reasoning for unions. I certainly have never professed the protection of sub-standard employees. Only the safeguarding of basic rights. ie just-cause principles and the Winegarten rules.

I may not be the brightest lightbulb in the fixture, but I know what is fair and what isn't. This is the role of today's Union. The fact that BMW has on their staff an attorney specifically employed to discourage unionization smells of Walmart and the law firm of the president's nominee to the Supreme Court. I'm encouraged to read a post from a believer in democracy.

Ol Ben said roughly " those who give up their rights for security, deserve neither ".


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## Frank Rizzo (Aug 2, 2003)

I heard there are plenty of good paying jobs in the construction industry in New Orleans right now.


Know wny it costs $12.00 for a movie ticket?
If you work at some of the larger movie studios........and there is a burnt out flourescent light in your office:

One electrican to change the lamp.
One transportation driver to move the ladder from the mill to the subject building. (Can't carry a ladder over 4 feet on a golf cart).
One laborer to load and unload the ladder (transpo driver only "drives").
Both the transpo driver and the laborer sit in the truck while the electrician changes the lamp.
If there is nothing else to do - everyone involved gets a minimum 4 hour call time.
These jobs are so in demand - you can really only get in if your father wills it to you. ....and they accuse the GOP of "croneyisim"? It makes a lot of people sour about the union.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Pock-

Very well said. That was one of the most eloquent, well-reasoned posts that I've ever seen here. One interesting point you made was that management is free to undermine unions by offering more benefits. IT always amazes me how much energy corporations expend trying to undermine their workers' rights and benefits. With happier workers and lower turnover, its likely that said corporations could be even more profitable and successful. Yet, they prefer to spend their time and money hiring lawyers and coming up with new way to squeeze their workers. I realize the financial markets obsession with quarterly results is partly to blame, but its really unbelievably stupid in the long run (its a "lose/lose" in management-speak). Also, in my view, if you are going to hire a human being (as opposed to a robot) to do a job, you should want as much of the extra value that a person can bring to the job as possible. By undermining their rights, management loses this possibility--costing them in the long run.

Unions are far from perfect, but there are few good alternatives.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

Frank Rizzo said:


> I heard there are plenty of good paying jobs in the construction industry in New Orleans right now.
> 
> Know wny it costs $12.00 for a movie ticket?
> If you work at some of the larger movie studios........and there is a burnt out flourescent light in your office:
> ...


Fact or fiction?????????


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## Frank Rizzo (Aug 2, 2003)

vern said:


> Fact or fiction?????????


 ....you decide.....

..


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

misterlance said:


> Finally, someone with empathy for the common man among us. How refreshing to read a truly eloquent reasoning for unions. I certainly have never professed the protection of sub-standard employees. Only the safeguarding of basic rights. ie just-cause principles and the Winegarten rules.


Pock did describe the way a union should work in the Utipoian world. I have no problem with that if that is indeed the union's function. However, how many unions are like that?

There is a big difference between protecting the rights of the worker and causing headache for the employer at every possible opportunity.


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

Frank Rizzo said:


> ....you decide.....
> 
> ..


FICTION-----I've worked in many union shops UAW included and NEVER came across anything close to what you said.
cheers
vern


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

Galun said:


> Pock did describe the way a union should work in the Utipoian world. I have no problem with that if that is indeed the union's function. However, how many unions are like that?
> 
> There is a big difference between protecting the rights of the worker and causing headache for the employer at every possible opportunity.


I agree. There's always going to be a push and pull between the powers of the union and the powers of management. Given human nature, abuses will occur on both sides. But, workers need to have a fighting chance-- and unions are the best way to ensure that. They're far from perfect, but they're the best tool we have.


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

BMW Employee,

I used to reside in Greenville, close to the Haywood Mall. I lived there just prior to the Z3 being produced and at the time the only BMW in production in Greer was the E36 318i. 

I have toured the plant numerous times (5-6 times) and I attended the Z3 Homecoming in 1999. I was in Greer this past summer with a relative for a Performance Center delivery. Honestly, I could tell a difference amongst the factory associates. The vibe that I previously got while visiting the plant was that everyone enjoyed their job and were proud of what they were building (Z3s with X5 production starting up). This last visit it appeared to be absent. I sensed something was not right. The associates just did not appear to be as happy as they were 6 years prior. :dunno: 

Best of luck to yourself and the other associates at the Greer plant. 

I am sure I'll get flamed for this, but many of you here have never visited the Greer factory. FYI, it certainly is not an easy job and it is extremely repetitive.


Edit: I do want to add that I feel unions are pretty much worthless as I have dealt with one personally. :thumbdwn:


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## Passenger (Apr 26, 2005)

I'm absolutely disgusted by some of the posts in this thread.
Typical freakin "I'm alright Jack" mentality.

We're not living in the 19th century. Factory and industrial workers have as many rights as anybody else but often scant facility to enforce them.

I'm as opposed as anybody to _over_ powerful unions [we've seen the negative affect of those in the UK too !] , but issues of working conditions and the health and wellbeing of employees should be paramount in any civilised society.

I'd say to some posters in this thread. Go and work on the factory floor for some big company...and _then_ see if you want to join a union. Ass holes !


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

This was forwarded to me by someone who thinks you all should know what good things unions do, have done, and stand for. There have been faults, but this is the other side.

For the guy who said unions destroy a nations ability to build a army. 


250,000 UAW members fought and many died in World War 2. The Arsenal of Democracy was bolstered by a man named Walter Reuther who later was the longtime International President of the UAW. He drafted the plan that business opposed and changed the Roosevelt plan of 200 planes per day to the amazing 500 per day; America as a result when this plan was applied to every sector turned out war and supplied components faster than the enemy could destroy them.

He bargained America’s first vacation plan. Eventually he got 2 weeks and that is the norm today.
He bargained America’s first Healthcare plan for workers. He eventually pushed for more.
He bargained America’s first retirement plans and most for workers. Pensions evolved.
He wrote the plan of 500 planes per day. This logistical plan defeated to the defeat of the AXIS powers.
He co-founded with Henry Ford 2nd one of America’s charities, the United Way in Michigan. Autoworkers in all states later pushed for more and United Way branches chartered all across America.

He was an advisor to Presidents Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, JFK, and Johnson. He drafted the plan to promote International Peace and understanding in third world countries and gave it to JFK, it was named the Peace Corps.

He and Senator Gaylord Nelson gave seed money for the creation of Earth Day.

He and the autoworkers stopped racism in the auto plants before it became a national law, they paid for the levy’s against the African community when they were ordered to pay $200,000 for the Montgomery bus Boycott. Additionally they marched on Washington and all over the U.S. with Martin Luther King and Reverend Roy Wilkins. Reuther was the only white man to give a speech to onlookers as he stood beside Martin Luther King on the day King said “I have a dream”.

After his death the UAW led to the national creation of Martin Luther Kings Holiday.

The UAW has helped for wage parity for women doing the same jobs a man does.

The UAW has helped to enact protection for women in the workplace and end sexual harassment.

The UAW and Rainbow Coalition paid for Lawyers for free to help Enron workers stop corporate pillaging and bring their case to trial.

The UAW helped through political pressure and funds bring about the end to incarceration of a man who fought apartheid in South Africa. After he was released within hours of freedom Nelson Mandela flew to the United States to thank the ranks of the United Auto workers. BMW sits down with Mandela today and has pictures on their website.


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## BayAreaBMWFan (Aug 8, 2004)

There is no question that unions played a big part in securing woker's rights.
The question here is how relevant are they in circa 2005?
Unions by their very nature reduce the managements ability to act.
Over a period of time this restriction on actions, reduced the effeciency of the operation. 
We are seeing that in the US Auto and Airline industries.

I personally am all for a union which negotiates for a safer work environment and enforcement of laws designed to protect workers. I am not comfortable with unions which negotiate wages and benefits. These should be determined by what the market will bear.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

BayAreaBMWFan said:


> There is no question that unions played a big part in securing woker's rights.
> The question here is how relevant are they in circa 2005?
> Unions by their very nature reduce the managements ability to act.
> Over a period of time this restriction on actions, reduced the effeciency of the operation.
> ...


Well, I work in the aviation sector and have worked indirectly with airlines. To me there is no question airline management is shady. Even the major builders if you can imagine  . Everything from trust violations to inside gov't contract scandals at the highest levels. So Im not going to elaborate further there as it is absurd.

Here is a group of workers around the country who is advocating injured workers.
They list the AFL-CIO or America's trade unions out to be one of the best things to defend yourself.
http://www.injuredworkers4change.org/organizations.htm

Some people say the workers are to blame for problems at Ford and GM. Chrysler is increasing market share and is in better shape than Mercedes. 3200 worksites in America have UAW members and no-one else is complaining.

Ford - would possibly billions spent for the Firestone recall and the lawsuits and public image be a problem and the loss of market share the issue or is it just the workers?

GM - Is giving 2 billion to Fiat, billions into Daewoo after they bought it and invested in it after it nearly crumbled, would the recent partnership with Subaru and then pulling out with penalties be a problem? Would giving such high incentives for years which destroyed resale of GM products have anything to do with customer appeal and people not buying a car that has resale that plummets, or is it as GM says just the workers fault?

I think its plain to see that a balance must be struck. And unions are the most efficient way to accomplish this. Unions have proven they can compromise for the greater good of the company. Again, look at the United pilot's union. What we need to see is BMW's compromise for the sake of balance and efficiency. The very traits I (maybe we) value most out of our BMWs.


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## Passenger (Apr 26, 2005)

Well said! :stupid:


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## djlfp (Dec 5, 2004)

BMW Employee said:


> As far as how our working conditions are, here is how we are worked and please note the average life expectancy of a BMW worker is only *5* years.


 :rofl: I thought child labor laws would protect all five year olds. :rofl:

On the other hand, if you are suggesting that the average employee dies five years after the date of employment, BMW must be hiring exclusively from those on social security. :rofl: You are a pip!

If you want any support, you are going to have to come up with some specific examples that are a bit more believable, even if they are not true.


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## BMW Employee (Oct 9, 2005)

Sorry for the typo. Average career working online expected is 5 years. BMW has not had any employee die online and does not hire 5 year olds. Thanks for pointing out the typo.
I meant to put the word career in front of life but typed fast and overlooked it, think you can now see the reasons for concern still. I think you can hold the brakes on anything I say not being credible, because I will give a way to verify many things. Many of them you won't like (if you have the contempt for real treachery as you claim) once you discover what we as workers face.

How BMW treated one of it's good employees.​
One woman named Moira (last name undisclosed) was one of the people who built BMW's U.S. empire from day 1. The next thing we hear is how she is hurting years later after BMW drastically increased the line speed. BMW neglected her wishes to change job assignments and request for more job rotations. She developed Carpel Tunnel Syndrome in her right hand. She felt the company doctors care was inadequate, and the surgeon nearly destroyed her right hand. So she had limited use of it afterward. BMW re-assigned her to another job which destroyed her left hand. She got surgery now on her left hand. BMW refused to let her come back to work and left her on workers compensation 1 year and then terminated her employment. She had to sell many of her assets to pay for survival. She was considered damaged goods and she could not find equal employment anywhere else. Other employers will test her for physical fitness and refuse employment on the basis of dual carpel tunnel. Today she is out on her back with possibly a lawsuit against BMW, which has more resources than her. This is just one of thousands of examples of workers without a voice. Or does this woman and other women, minorities, and men deserve justice?

I have heard people saying over and over Semper Fi. It's good to see unity. Now understand why many U.S. Marines at Spartanburg support the UAW and have feelings like they do because of this:

How BMW honored one U.S. Marine.​
One of the union volunteer organizers named Scott Mc Abee knew he was up against a lot but wanted to help out other workers despite who he was up against. He put Union Yes signs on his truck so BMW security followed him and made statements continuously in the parking lot about his truck and took pictures of him off of plant property. BMW management told workers lies about him saying he was rich, and he was receiving personal compensation as a volunteer. Security parked large vehicles next to his, so he remembered his honor and put his UAW Union YES signs on stilts and jacked them up 8 ft high to show anyone he was a free man. Next the section of the parking lot was blocked by pool cars where he parked coming into the main entrance. We have pictures of that too, and BMW said they needed the space even though they never parked cars there for months. After Scott quit, the cars moved. One manager boldly told workers that BMW planned to fire Scott for exercising his rights and that the parking lot incidents were to demoralize him. Next BMW kept pouring it on by picking up his literature, asking co-workers if he talked to them about the UAW, and so forth. Later they tried to re-assign him. All violations of the law (NLRB). The NLRB interviewer was mad at his treatment but when his case was brought up it was shot down by the higher board in the NLRB. Note that the NLRB would not rule in favor of him because people who witnessed other verbal confrontations and so forth were too scared to write enough statements. Scott did have pictures of security taking photos of him. So Scott was not found as doing anything wrong, but they did not go after BMW. So how is it fair to follow him and take pictures? That should have been enough to prove something was not right.

Scott was upset at lies he was hearing that were being said about him so he made several hundred handouts and dressed up as Santa Claus. The handouts he passed out told workers in a leaflet one day that everything BMW said about him was a lie and he was one proud U.S. Marine who was not backing down from a fight. BMW immediately told workers lies about him again and told workers that hundreds of people found it offensive that he dressed up as Santa Claus, when truthfully BMW had workers calling him to cheer him on for days. These same workers begged him not to stop or back down, and thought the UAW mission was over because BMW had made handouts saying thanks for saying no to the UAW. BMW also made every employee attend a film cession that had no questions and answers in which Kathleen Wall the Vice President of Human Resources personally narrated. She tried to paint UAW and union members as corrupt and told workers that a union at BMW could provoke violence. Many workers asked each other is BMW saying they will commit violence against us?

His Santa outfit was for another mission he performed all throughout the holiday season. He dressed up as Santa at the plant turn style yes, but it was out of xmas spirit. Scott used the outfit for dressing up as Santa for poor children all week as part of his holiday contribution as a Shriner.

A couple weeks later Scott was in the hospital on a respirator fighting to breath and BMW kept up all the lies. BMW scared his co-workers and longtime personal friends at BMW so badly that hardly anyone went to visit him because they feared BMW was watching. So after several admissions to the hospital, Scotts doctor finally told him his breathing was so bad he could no longer work. He is now on Social Security Disability, but again his injury was not at BMW, his treatment for belief was.

So now about Semper Fi, does that not mean always faithful? It did to several other U.S. Marines who heard of his treatment, and have now joined the movement.

About the Shriner and Mason call to arms. Are any of you members? Did you take an oath to support a brother in need regardless?

And we definitely can see the union members past or former who have posted me messages privately and publicly. You remember what rights mean. I suspect someone or many on this site will challenge the story about Scott I just told you as they do any word I say, so is someone who showed no contempt willing to call Scott and verify his story? Maybe he can even send the photos of the BMW security guard episode to you about this (this will be his choice, not mine). If you want to send me an address I can send you a copy of BMW statements about the UAW.

I would also like to add on that that it has been the good nature of Union brotherhood which stood proudly with me here and it shows that people say deeply that unions are obsolete; I guess you were proven not to be correct; it is definately not obsolete because union members with great character will defend a good cause and are logical, as they have shown in this forum. This is what union defense is all about, something that the misinformed in society call obsolete

Now about this agreement. BMW will not be forced to stop harassment until they inform workers they signed a declaration of human rights, and freedom to choose a union without intimidation is one of them. BMW posted it on the BMW group website and did not inform employees like agreed. Instead BMW has done just the opposite. So anyone can debate the conditions but if they don't exist then we will not be successful to get a union - it's logical. If BMW was not doing the things I said and worse you not would have anyone interested in a union because law requires 51% of workers say yes in an election. This is very sly for them to know they have very unhappy workers and just post it on the Group website. That's why I said to people "here is BMW's side of things." It is the same declaration on their website, a fact which people commented negatively to me about but no one even went to see that yes it was true BMW said the same things and should have made the steps to enforce them at Spartanburg which is included.

The only thing we ask if you are willing to is to write a letter to Spartanburg and say you support BMW workers being happy and want to see them informed of the Declaration on BMW's website. I know several people said they would and thanks. Please, anyone help us, and we thank you for buying great BMW cars and want to build them for you.

We are not desparate, we are not losers, we are human beings. We deserve the right of choice without people second guessing if we ever made it through school and got enough education, are ungrateful to have any job, or deserve the right to touch a BMW.

Anyone who hates our creed keep flaming away, and thanks again to many for the support and please keep showing it.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

BMW Employee,

I believe what you're saying and it is disgusting. But, I wonder, do you think writing letters to Spartanburg is going to change anything? If they're this confrontational w/ their workers, how would a few letters change their minds? Is there anything more effective that could be done? Also, can you guys get any support from BMW Germany? Doesn't their board have reps from IG Metall on it? Would they consider helping you guys? Finally, i'm not familiar with the unionization process. Was there some sort of vote recently, and not enough employees voted yes? Can you request another vote? Are there ways to get the word out to your fellow workers without doing so on the plant property (so that you're less suseptible to their union busting techniques?). 



From your posts, it sounds like you're saying that your fellow worksers are voting against the union because they're afraid of retaliation. But, can BMW even find out how individual workers voted? I assume not-- try to get the word out about that out to fellow workers (maybe via ads, email, etc).

Finally, I didn't understand the part about the declaration of human rights. You said that BMW has posted in a website, but has not told workers about it. ANd, somehow if they tell the workers they signed it they'll somehow be forced to stop trying to prevent unionization. I'm a little lost as to how and why this is the case? Could you explain who enforces this declaration? WHy is signing it different than informing workers that they have signed it. And, aren't their "union-busting" techniques illegal regardless of whehter they sign a declaration or not? Who would stop this from going on even if they did sign a declaration and tell workers that they did so?

Thanks for any clarifications you can provide!


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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

My political agenda: fiscally conservative, socially liberal.

BMWEmployee's quotoes and my retort:

"Probably thousands have carpel tunnel syndrome."

Yeah bud, what about every worker with a PC on their desk? I spend 60 hours a week on an IBM Thinkpad. Do I worry about carpel tunnel? Every day, but I'll deal with it later and health insurance will cover it. Stop being a b1tch, you don't need a union for this.

"It is disgusting how our country treats white collar workers."

You can find white collar work at many different levels of responsibility and difficulty, ranging from country government to investment banking. You will be compensated appropriately.

"Do you want to drive a Ultimate Driving Machine built with unskilled labor?"

Well, thankfully people as lazy and whiney as you don't design and engineer these cars. Talented, highly educated people who work smart make BMW's great through automotive innovation. You assemble the finished parts and you constantly cry about it. I might change my masters degree to mechanical engineering just so I can help design a robot that will do your job. I don't need to hope for this, because I know automation will end this discussion when 1,000 more workers you wanted to unionize are replaced with a few machines.

And yes, you are right I would not want you and your "unskilled" buddies to rig up an active cruise control system you thought up when you were skipping stones across Dawson's Creek.

"We build an X5 for nearly $15,000 and then Germany marks it up tremendously."

Do me a favor friend, go to the nearest top tier school (probably Duke in your case) and take a corporate finance class to get a foundation for what I'm about to tell you. It costs well over $1 billion to do the R&D on a new model. The extra money goes to paying you, researching new models and reintroductions, building new plants, full maitenance for buyers, etc. You seem to think BMW is shafting you to make $30,000 profit per car. Their Net Profit Margin is 5%, which is admittedly high for automotive but low compared to the Fortune 500.


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## woody underwood (Feb 9, 2004)

When I worked at the Chevrolet plant here in KC the Shop Rules had a statement at the end reading "The work is hard but the pay is good". That hasn't changed but the global economy sure has and to keep the good pay (And benefits) the work is going to get harder. There's also the old saying "Are you part of the problem or part of the solution". Unions need to remember that.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

westwest888 said:


> My political agenda: fiscally conservative, socially liberal.
> 
> BMWEmployee's quotoes and my retort:
> 
> ...


With all the name calling and accusations of illegal theft, It is hard to discern your point. I certainly hope a "top tier" school is not responsible for your level education and logic.

Please learn to be civil so the rest of us can understand WTF you are talking about. :thumbdwn:


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

I suggest you all read carefully what BMW Employee has written. You can tell he is sincerely upset and affected by what is happening in Spartanburg.

From what I can tell the oposition is uninformed and in some cases very rude. I hope BMW is reading this thread and seeing the "top tier" posts coming from their side of this.

Do not one of you have an articulate argument as to why BMW should not unionize?


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## CJsCar (May 12, 2005)

Sorry pal but the UAW is not the way to go. This is the organization that caused Delphi to go to bankruptcy. News articles in the financial sector are now numbering GM's days because of union issues and entitlements to ex-employees and Ford is a little punch drunk too. Do you have any idea what the weekly union dues are with the UAW? I do. How do you think they can sponsor a NASCAR Nextel cup race? That takes some serious capital. Next time their representatives come to town ask them to see their yearly fiscal report.

You can organize yourselves but aparently not enough of your co-workers wish to or your plant would be a union shop by now. The management and owners have little or no say in that regard by federal law.

You can also get a collective of employees together and meet regarding company issues on a regular basis and present ideas and problems to management. Try including management in the meetings and discuss, not argue, your problems. You will probably find the problems you have they face too.

Oh, and the free medicine must be hard to accept :bawling:


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

This thread has become tiresome.


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## the_s_rabbit (Mar 8, 2005)

This thread has not only become tiresome, but it is simply offensive, on both sides. 

I have worked my A$$ off to get to where I am today, with no help from anyone. I will be paying school loans out till I'm 50. I like many others work overtime that is unpaid because I'm exempt. There are other companies in the area that would pay much more for someone with my skills...my health benefits suck, everyone's does. I have restrictions on pharmacies I can go to. I'm just not buying the complaints. 

Any doctor bashing has to stop too, they work their A$$ES off through greuling school/interships/redsidencies, at a very high investment on their own part. They also NEED to work a lot of extra hours to take care of people and save lives. 

This discussion has turned more political than anything else, and it's rediculous.

I don't sympathize with ANYONE here, and no one should sympathize with me. It's life, deal with it!


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## beware_phog (Mar 7, 2003)

BMW Employee said:


> I am a worker in the BMW Transplant in Spartanburg, SC. We have been trying to organize a union at BMW but have been unsuccessful due to BMW's offensive posture against us. We have seen all the tricks of union avoidance and BMW even has an in house member of Human Resources named Paul Lindemann who is a lawyer that BMW hired in 5 years ago from the Greenville branch of Jackson and Lewis, one of the nations top firms.
> What is interesting is in April The BMW Group represented by DR. Helmut Panke signed a historic agreement in Germany stating BMW would not intimidate us about union activity and they would inform us of this agreement. Instead BMW has not said a word. The UAW is in discussions with IG Metall about this agreement but nothing has been finalized. This agreement covers all BMW facilities worldwide outside Germany for health and safety standards and allows for workers to freely exercise our rights; this is also is in relation to the U.N. ILO agreements of which BMW is part of. BMW signed this agreement with the International Metal Workers Foundation and it's workers on the BMW works council in Geneva Switzerland.
> More details are available at:
> http://www.imfmetal.org/main/index.cfm?n=47&l=2&c=7786
> ...


You have NO support from me. Have you taken a look at the US car makers lately? What has unionization done for them? It is putting them out of business. Perhaps you should move to Detroit.


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

misterlance said:


> So you have seen the downsides. What about the upsides? Again generalizing about unions from your limited experience seems foolish. Again, can none of you see the value of maintaining worker's rights? Or even fair treatment within a company?


Unions aren't pure evil, but in many situations they way overstep their bounds. They were a necessity at one time, when the rules too heavily favored management. Now, things have swung too far the other way, although I think it has been returning to center for a little while. This return to center is what the unions are referring to a loss of worker's rights. So no, I don't see a value in maintaining all the rights some workers have. The main problem with unions is the inability to eliminate a few bad apples efficently, or in some case at all. What about fair treatment for the company?

Limited experience? I only gave a few explains to illistrate a point (don't get me going about my trade show experiences), yet a lot of my friends and relatives are union members, and I've got plenty of bad stories from their points of view. Maybe their experience is limited too.

But here's the simple thing: what you or I think about unions doesn't matter as to whether the BMW employees will unionize. If the majority of them fell it is a necessity, it will happen. They are the ones who know the conditions over all, and not just the view of one particular employee.


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## richyz (Jul 9, 2005)

cwsqbm said:


> But here's the simple thing: what you or I think about unions doesn't matter as to whether the BMW employees will unionize. If the majority of them fell it is a necessity, it will happen. They are the ones who know the conditions over all, and not just the view of one particular employee.


I have great respect for the BMW workers doing a job I and almost every one else reading this would not want to be doing. And everything I'm writing below I preface by saying I don't know what the conditions are in the plant.

I was once a Liberal ready to believe that reality was what I saw in the movie "Norma Rae". For those of you too young to know - it's a movie from the late 70's about a northern union organizer sent down to the Carolinas to organize the workers in a textile plant. I believed workers needed unions to protect their interests.

I now run my own contracting company and have seen close up how ridiculous, petty, corrupt and inefficient unions can be. And I'm a Liberal no more. Now I'm a Libertarian.

The reality is BMW wanted to establish operations in a right to work state without a strong union tradition - as is its right. As a Libertarian I believe BMW has the right to offer employment with the wages and working conditions it sees fit to offer. And prospective employees have the right to sign on, or not, to these conditions. Are the wages that BMW pays high for the area - they probably are. Are the working conditions tougher than many other jobs in area - they probably are. Would many of the BMW workers be happier taking orders at a McDonalds drive thru for the same money as BMW pays - I bet a lot would be. But McDonalds doesn't pay as well. So the BMW workers are free to decide - BMW wages with BMW working conditions, or McDonalds wages with McDonalds working conditions.

So in the end the BMW workers will decide for themselves whether to unionize. And if they do and if BMW decides the union demands are unreasonable, BMW will decide what's best to do in its own interests. They do have recourses - transfer some work to plants in Germany or South Africa - start production in Mexico as VW does, etc.

Just my read on the matter.


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## BMW Employee (Oct 9, 2005)

No one gets free medicine, we all pay, pay or pay extremely more; you can see that by what I posted.

I surely agree with the person who said there are other costs involved. Yes 1 billion divided by over 500,000 cars = $2000 of extra cost per vehicle. That is true. And it's a lot of money still, much much more compared to simple ergonomic improvements.

And as someone who thinks unions don't listen, then consider that companies have a chance to present their case to workers before both sides sign a contract cycle. Delphi, GM, and Ford problems are theirs. You don't see the same complaints from Mitsubishi and Toyota workers at NUMMI who are UAW. Mitsubishi had some problems, yes. All of them were related to no interest for 1 year, no payments for 1 year. It had so many with bad credit buying cars that let them go in 1 year. But they don't tell the public blame the workers. Consider this: Do you go to church? I do, despite all the scandals you heard about. People problems are inherant to people.

What I wonder is why in America do we "hate" union members? Really why? Would we say "lets judge them for their color"? Would we say "expect every _____ is the same way? What kind of a country promotes hate by creed? Really, what kind of a country promotes hate by creed? Conservative Christians (I am one) say Christians are persecuted strongly in America. Are we really treated with such hate as a person who simply said they wanted to join a union? This hate is all over America. Is this America?

If anyone from IGM, or someone who knows someone who is a member that reads this then please post me a private message.

As far as one BMW Employee. Many people agreed to do many different things. Others are in touch with the IMF, UAW members, UAW International, Some people send co-workers letters, some people have contacted other foreign workplaces in America, etc......I agreed to come here and ask for support. There are others that will be posting additionally all over the world wide web very soon. 

I can surely say if you think that I'm rude, or others then you can refrain from reading this posting--and I'm not being scarcastic. I don't think I've been rude to anyone, if I was then I'm sorry. I don't love it myself but people are concerned enough to try to offer help. People generally disagree over the method to use to solve these problems but it's called democracy, and many owners have shown concern either way. Many people have made strong points on both sides I have taken note of.

People all over the floor are deeply concerned of the conditions. Most of the worst conditions these people ever faced are in this plant. I find it ironic that many people have said they doubt anything I said is true when BMW owners in this forum have said bits and pieces saying they witnessed some of the things I discribed.



Workers have not had a vote. We have not had anything close. We can't get literature on the table before management throws it in the trash. We can't do much without anyone feeling a deep sense of retaliation could come. It makes anything happen very slowly, and dispite this the effort grows larger every week, so people are not saying no, they are saying "count me in". Many people that join the effort do so because they are tired of supression. Every time BMW has a jab at the UAW, it literally sends more people toward it; because everyone sees that it has nothing to do with the UAW, it has to do with controlling the workforce into further supression. BMW does this after every meeting with workers, we've lowered your conditions, the UAW is really wrong. Every time they say "This is our most sucessful year and we never made more money than now. So we have decided to increase our profit more. Then those things effect every aspect of our working environment." There is no telling what is happening in all the shops, but in Assembly we see conditions that are poor. Everyone tells us that there are similar conditions in the rest of the plant, except a few areas which are totally offline ( a few jobs). Getting offline for me would do nothing for those left behind.

In the case of union busting being illegal. Yes it is. It is only as illegal as the people on the NLRB board allow it to be, right now conservative non union favorable. Just read my last post about what happened to Scott. I have known Scott for many years, worked beside him, and he is a fine person. He should have won his case.


In order to get a vote 60% must sign a petition to have one, it's what the UAW requires because they know people will be scared when they look at the ballot box in the plant. That means over 1800 people must sign a petition requesting an election.

Before we get to that state of petition signing the issues must be allowed to be debated and that can't happen either. 

BMW owners have kept asking what would it do for you, if I wrote a letter?

It would allow people to be able to talk and discuss these issues. If they inform us of this agreement, it would allow workers to voice concern and collectively take this to the corporate level. Every issue of Safety and Health that has effects on many people could gain a voice at the corporate level. This document insures that issues can be taken to that level. This document becomes active when we are told by our plant that it is in effect. At that time a lot will change. When working conditions improve, it will probably improve morale and that builds a better car.

Why might the plant listen?

You are their customers. They might just go ahead and tell us, and let us resolve issues for everyones sake; with or without a union. Without a union with improved conditions no one looses.


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## Tangent (Jan 18, 2004)

Don't count on unionization to make things better. They'll be different, but not necessarily better. I work for a union and while there are some nice things about that, I must work with more than a reasonable share of people who abuse those things. It's extraordinarily difficult for anybody past their probation here to get fired. While at first that might seem like a wonderful thing, it leaves you with a whole lot of dead weight. Now you end up doing your job _and_ theirs if you have a work ethic that won't let you follow in their lazy footsteps. There's also the lovely situation where the union has made it nearly impossible to pass somebody over for promotion if they know the steps to take and are ballsy enough to do it. There are people that get every promotion no matter how woefully under-qualified they are because they went through all the steps and then excersized their union-secured right to sue. We also still get jerked around with the insurance, the good plans getting worse and worse every year or being dropped entirely in favor of another (crappier) health plan.

On top of all that I have an absolutely crappy pay schedule that doesn't even have a provision for merit raises. This means that the paycheck collecting freeloaders that do no work and can't get fired are getting paid more than I am simply because they've been here longer than I have. My union is too damned busy spending my dues money trying to tell me how to vote on propositions that have nothing to do with my job to actually work out a decent pay plan with my employer.


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## maxcat (Feb 11, 2005)

*CNBC segment on GM union*

:yikes: This afternoon at 5:00 P.M. there was a segment on CNBC regarding more of GM's financial woes. Due to a collective bargaining agreement reached in the 80's GM spends *$750,000,000 (seven hundred fifty million)* per year to workers that no longer work for GM. This covers wages, health care, etc. The one man they had on makes $26 per hour doing charity work at his church. These former GM employers are part of a charity job bank. I think it is because of situations such as this that there may be some harsh feelings against unions.

I am somewhat surprised that more self-employed people have not thrown in their two cents. As a self employed person, I pay for all of my families health care costs, retirement savings (no matching dollars from an employer), don't make a dime if I go on vacation, etc. I must say that I have no regrets over my career path. I control my destiny to a large extent and make my own luck and opportunities.


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Tangent said:



> Don't count on unionization to make things better. They'll be different, but not necessarily better. I work for a union and while there are some nice things about that, I must work with more than a reasonable share of people who abuse those things. It's extraordinarily difficult for anybody past their probation here to get fired. While at first that might seem like a wonderful thing, it leaves you with a whole lot of dead weight. Now you end up doing your job _and_ theirs if you have a work ethic that won't let you follow in their lazy footsteps. There's also the lovely situation where the union has made it nearly impossible to pass somebody over for promotion if they know the steps to take and are ballsy enough to do it. There are people that get every promotion no matter how woefully under-qualified they are because they went through all the steps and then excersized their union-secured right to sue. We also still get jerked around with the insurance, the good plans getting worse and worse every year or being dropped entirely in favor of another (crappier) health plan.
> 
> On top of all that I have an absolutely crappy pay schedule that doesn't even have a provision for merit raises. This means that the paycheck collecting freeloaders that do no work and can't get fired are getting paid more than I am simply because they've been here longer than I have. My union is too damned busy spending my dues money trying to tell me how to vote on propositions that have nothing to do with my job to actually work out a decent pay plan with my employer.


You mention that your union is too busy. A union is a democratic function. They probably do spend a lot of money to educate you on the issues and to get you to vote. You are perfectly capable of becoming a union delegate and seeing and participating in the process in which contracts are agreed upon. It is all democratic. And who knows, you might become empowered enough to improve your own situation. And there are ways to get rid of freeloaders even in a union. If there is something you have actually seen. You document it. The union has given you power you may not even be aware of.


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## rvtomcox (Sep 22, 2005)

*Unions could not get out of the way of a train if they saw it coming*

I was a white collar worker here in US, was force retired 9 years ago due to reorganization. This year our reirement benefits are soaring in cost about a 35% increase in one year for all services. The point is Companies can destroy unions at will because the unions have their heads in the sand, they would rather fight to keep the 25 cents an hour than work with the company to maybe come up with a better resolution. Plus the companies usually have the right to simply discontinue retiree benefits. AS for respect that went out with the mom and pop stores. Just my 2 cents.


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## richyz (Jul 9, 2005)

maxcat said:


> :yikes: This afternoon at 5:00 P.M. there was a segment on CNBC regarding more of GM's financial woes. Due to a collective bargaining agreement reached in the 80's GM spends *$750,000,000 (seven hundred fifty million)* per year to workers that no longer work for GM. This covers wages, health care, etc. The one man they had on makes $26 per hour doing charity work at his church. These former GM employers are part of a charity job bank. I think it is because of situations such as this that there may be some harsh feelings against unions.


A legacy of a happier time for GM when they thought giving so much to laid off workers wouldn't mean much to GM because there would be so much demand for their vehicles there wouldn't be laid off workers. Didn't turn out that way.



maxcat said:


> :yikes: I am somewhat surprised that more self-employed people have not thrown in their two cents. As a self employed person, I pay for all of my families health care costs, retirement savings (no matching dollars from an employer), don't make a dime if I go on vacation, etc. I must say that I have no regrets over my career path. I control my destiny to a large extent and make my own luck and opportunities.


Know just how you feel. I'm self employed too.


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## shukster (Oct 26, 2005)

if companies were properly managed, they will not be in bad shape and won't treat their employees badly. You would not need any unions if all was hunky dory with the managent of companies. 

I am a white collar idiot who has not walked in the shoes of the blue collar worker, so do not know if all is well with the unions. But one thing is for sure : unions don't pay (in fact they charge a cost) and companies do, still ask a worker and they will support unions more than the companies they work for. 

Why this mistrust - probably history will show what is the reason for it...
In my MBA class one prof. said that if you want to be successful form a company like the unions. do what they do for the employees and you will succeed.


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## Malibubimmer (Sep 28, 2005)

shukster said:


> if companies were properly managed, they will not be in bad shape and won't treat their employees badly. You would not need any unions if all was hunky dory with the managent of companies.
> 
> I am a white collar idiot who has not walked in the shoes of the blue collar worker, so do not know if all is well with the unions. But one thing is for sure : unions don't pay (in fact they charge a cost) and companies do, still ask a worker and they will support unions more than the companies they work for.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing.  And reviving a five-month dead thread that deserved to die.


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## ThatOneGuy (Nov 18, 2005)

I wouldn't buy any U.S. made BMW's for a while. Sounds like a lot of unhappy people building vehicles. Can't be good for quality control.


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## cjwheeling (Jan 26, 2006)

BMW Employee said:


> I thank you for allowing us to post.
> 
> As far as how our working conditions are, here is how we are worked and please note the average life expectancy of a BMW worker is only *5* years.


Wow, now I do feel for them. J/K. Good luck


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## jpsquared (Mar 27, 2005)

To BMW Employee... Certainly, if conditions in your plant have eroded to the extent of worker mistreatment and management abuses, you should organize and force management to address your issues. Good Luck in that endeavor.

The problem with gaining more support from this forum is that, as many have posted, a good deal of us have zero faith in what has become the modern American union. All we see are stories on 60 minutes about union dues paying for political campaigns, or having personal experiences with outdated, wasteful union rules. Unsophisticated line-workers have been manipulated like an army against the "evil" corporations, bleeding them dry. It's what we read and see every day, especially in light of the auto industry's current problems.

As others have pointed out, there has to be an alternative method of shaking the management tree to get your points across. Is BMW management pure of heart and innocent of all charges - most likely not. Almost every major corporation is guilty of stepping on it's labor force in some fashion. But going the UAW route will not get you any support here. A progressive alternative must be found. Prove to your managers that you want to help the company control it's costs while solving your problems. What's happened to creativity and dialogue?

Maybe I'm being altruistic or unrealistic at the least, but it's been my experience working in the financial-services industry (non-union) for close to 20 years now, that if I needed to change a process, or reduce my hours without losing pay, it meant explaining to my bosses how they could save a buck while simultaneously solving my issues. Labor laws have always protected me from becoming a slave, and when things got out of control, I exercised my right to leave and found another job.

The reality of it all is that many here have not had the benefit of union oversight to make their careers, thus some of the unfortunate insults. I have no doubt that you and your colleagues work very hard to produce a fine product, but isn't that what you're getting paid for? Your reasons for organizing reflect the increased costs of living in this country - healthcare, pension elimination, etc... in other words, the same things that affect most of us. Certain posters would accuse me of being selfish, but seriously, where were you when the bank I worked for took away my overtime and increased my healthcare premiums?

I sincerely hope you can work out your issues. You have elected officials that could wield some power to retain your vote. And don't forget, BMW is a guest in this country. They'd be foolish to soil that relationship or have their reputation tarnished by a labor dispute. Your ability to change your working conditions sans-union is stronger than you realize. 

Good luck.


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## n pinson (Feb 24, 2006)

xspeedy said:


> You'll get no support from me. Unions are nothing but large scale blackmail organizations that have led, in part, to the downfall of the US auto industry. US manufacturing has just about completely died off because of unions. US companies can't compete in a global economy when we pay people that spin nuts the same as doctors and lawyers.
> 
> If you don't like the conditions at BMWUSA, then go work for Ford. If you don't like Ford, go work for GM. If you don't like it there, then find a new career.


AMEN!


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## chicagolab (Feb 20, 2006)

as my Union secretary would say...."Its not in my contract"....."I cant help you"


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

Malibubimmer said:


> Thank you for sharing.  And reviving a five-month dead thread that deserved to die.


Oh, you must own the place. 

I would like to hear how BMW Employee made out. But I can guess the outcome. It is a sad day when so many people feel american workers should just shut up and be cowards. Whats even more f-ed up, is that anymore american made products are being made by illegal aliens.

Who cares as long as I'm getting my check.

Facists.


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## KevinH (Jan 2, 2006)

Unions are an archaic concept that are more responsible for America's economic woes than any other organization.

I've had the extreme pleasure of shutting down a 400+ person union plant after the union "leaders" laughed when we told them that without major changes in the contract, the plant would close. 

Who's laughing now?

All those issues you listed are pathetic. Pension? How about being responsible for your own retirement like the rest of us instead of living beyond your means?

Health care costs? Everyone's costs are going up and all US companies are shouldering more of the burden than the employees. 

Off the clock to put on gear? I watched a Union employee take 20 minutes to put on a pair of steel toe boots. I bet you can do it faster.

Put on your big girl panties and get out of the 1940s. Now that I found out BMW is successfully avoiding an organization attempt, I love my car even more. 

GO BMW!


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

KevinH said:


> *Unions are an archaic concept that are more responsible for America's economic woes than any other organization.*
> 
> I've had the extreme pleasure of shutting down a 400+ person union plant after the union "leaders" laughed when we told them that without major changes in the contract, the plant would close.
> 
> ...


Unions are better than allowing unethical American businessman to rape American workers. Hopefully people such as yourself make for a fair and honest workplace. But if you know human nature, you know that would be silly in most cases. Hell we even need organizations in place like OSHA to insure employers are providing minimally safe working conditions. That wouldn't be necessary and so large if employers just did it.

It is common knowledge that a single voice is not as strong as many. Simple math and common sense explain the need for unions. IMO the only way to do away with entities like unions is to have the govt police the hell out of companies to make sure they are being honest. But that isn't really in the idea of downsizing govt.

Which leads me to a question. Do you consider yourself liberal or conservative? I think I know, but I am not sure. But I do know you think it is funny that 400 Americans lost their job. And that you trolled me into making another slap down post in this thread.


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## flexstar (Sep 16, 2005)

*Tough!*

As the coach would say "suck it up" and if you can't do that go find a truck to drive. I do not suport your agument, and believe the vast majority of union workers are slackers and cry babies.


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## gbelton (Aug 3, 2003)

*Talk to The Media*

I say hit the media. If it is important to you and others take the next step and make it public.

Good luck.

GMAN


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## docarut (Aug 27, 2005)

Everyone has their opinion but mine is that unions have outlived their usefulness. They represents another form of "big government" that is an extra bureaucracy that ultimately drives up the costs of manufacturing. I am a retired physician and I still cannot believe the need for unionization of physicians. I worked for a large HMO and did not feel threatened by the workload-you just did what you were paid to do and I did not leave my office till I took care of the day's patients.

Enough rant. Let's get back to sharing enthusiasm and knowledge of cars!

Bob:thumbup:

As a Post-Script-concerning life expectancy of workers-the average of age that physicians die in this country is 59.5 years according to U.S. census statistics.


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## KevinH (Jan 2, 2006)

misterlance said:


> Unions are better than allowing unethical American businessman to rape American workers. Hopefully people such as yourself make for a fair and honest workplace. But if you know human nature, you know that would be silly in most cases. Hell we even need organizations in place like OSHA to insure employers are providing minimally safe working conditions. That wouldn't be necessary and so large if employers just did it.
> 
> It is common knowledge that a single voice is not as strong as many. Simple math and common sense explain the need for unions. IMO the only way to do away with entities like unions is to have the govt police the hell out of companies to make sure they are being honest. But that isn't really in the idea of downsizing govt.
> 
> Which leads me to a question. Do you consider yourself liberal or conservative? I think I know, but I am not sure. But I do know you think it is funny that 400 Americans lost their job. And that you trolled me into making another slap down post in this thread.


I'm too smart to be labeled a conservative or liberal  My opinions on issues are based on the facts and rarely stay within the boundaries defined by those two groups. I say that I'm conservative in what I project and liberal in what I accept.

My main point about these whining union babies is that no one is ever forced to be...how did you put it?...raped by unethical American businessmen. If you don't like your working conditions then you simply LEAVE. Why is that so hard for these union morons to understand?

I don't like fish. I don't like the smell of it or the taste of it. Therefore, I don't patronize fish restaurants. Simple, no? However, if I were to take the union mindset, I'd go to that fish restaurant every day and demand they serve chicken instead of fish. If they refused, I'd write a contract and take them to court to FORCE them to server me chicken. Instead, I just find a restaurant that suits me.

That's the union mindset and that's what's killing our economy. Ironically, though, the people taking the brunt of pain are the union workers themselves as their jobs are shipped overseas. The "unethical businessmen" simply change the names on the payroll checks they write and enjoy higher profits. I don't care who you are, that's funny stuff.


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## BringsMeWomen (Jan 10, 2006)

Only in America.


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

Lanc3r said:


> Do you enjoy weekends off?


Are you saying that without a union, they'll take away my weekends???

Oh no!!! :yikes:



:tsk:

Yes, I enjoy my weekends off, and you're not taking those!!!


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

mark_m5 said:


> Are you saying that without a union, they'll take away my weekends???
> 
> Oh no!!! :yikes:
> 
> ...


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## mark_m5 (Sep 16, 2006)

I set you up for that, didn't I.


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## dtennyson (Oct 23, 2007)

Wah Wah Wah..... If you don't like your job, get another one.......


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## BWTX540i (Mar 19, 2002)

No sympathy from me whatsoever. Unions are leeches draining the last ounce of flexibility out of any company to which they are attached.


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## Spicey (Sep 9, 2007)

Lanc3r said:


> Your whole argument is generalized and not based on any evidence. And like you said you didnt read every post to see some of the truly eloquent posts made on this subject. I am not saying you are deficient but you are saying nothing new with no evidence in a old thread.
> 
> So thanks for the contribution. Is that all you have?


I'm suprised you didnt take that chance to do some generalized bashing on corporate america.

and Lanc3r how is that Theory Y world you live in?

In regards to BMW employee:
I wonder how he figured the cost of making a X5? It seems like (s)he is wanting apart of the pie so to speak.

I am a bit confused on how you can enjoy working somewhere and feel like you are being cheated at the same time.


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## BobbiOh (Sep 27, 2005)

BMW Employee said:


> I thank you for allowing us to post.
> 
> As far as how our working conditions are, here is how we are worked and please note the average life expectancy of a BMW worker is only *5* years. We love building the products you drive, and ask you please treat us with respect enough to understand why we have come to this decision. We are not asking for you to do any more than ask the company to obey the law and do what they said. Unions are all we have got left to go to. Please respect us.


 Sorry, I don't think any company should be forced to accept a union. It's legalized blackmail.



> Our pension plans have been gutted by over 45%.


 Hmmm... well, I don't have a pension plan. Maybe you should be thankful for the one you have?



> Our medical plans have been changed continously.


 Do you somehow think this is different than the rest of the workforce?



> Our 401k plans (our Money) can now be seized by the company when we die, if we don't have a will.


 This is pretty typical. The company put money in for you, so if you're not there for the money, the money reverts back. The simple answer is make sure you have a will, which is normal adult stuff anyway.



> We have lost all of our overtime benefits.


 We're not allowed to have overtime period.



> We now have to get prescriptions filled at the company pharmacy or pay redicoulous co-pays.


 You think that's any different than having an HMO?



> We are made to work off the clock by putting on work gear that is supposed to be paid time. Some workers are deprived of more.


 I have to be my desk ready to work at 8:30. That means that anything I have to prep to be able to work gets done before 8:30am. It's normal.



> Over 1500 workers no longer work for BMW. Many are injured permanently. Some people have got 3 rotor cuff surgeries and they get put in jobs that are worse on them. Probably thousands have carpel tunnel syndrome.


 Again, no different than the rest of the working world.



> We can go on, BMW is a great company and we need to be able to work with this company to benefit us all and improve working conditions. I want nothing more than to see the laws and agreements be respected.


 There are thousands of people in this country fighting to find a job.....and you're complaining about having more than what most people have.


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## Z4luvr (Jun 23, 2006)

Hadn't seen this thread on the first go-round. Given the sad state of affairs GM is in, I fail to understand how people think that stiff armed labor unions are good for them in the long term. Tens of thousands of auto manufacutring jobs have been shifted overseas and to other companies. Why? Because union demands made it economically impratical to compete with lower cost providers. Another reason I refuse to buy GM products is because $1500 of every car's purchase price can be attributed to legacy union benefits.

If Unions had the best intentions for their workers in the long term, they would make auto manufacturing financially viable for future generations and not just use blackmail and other tactics to get current perks. If you think Unions are doing such a great job, ask yourself how many people are out of work today because of the past tactics of the Unions.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

A lot of misinformed opinions on here. And who resurrected this dinosaur, anyway?

Unions would have been long gone and dead if corporations played fairly, treated their workers fairly, and everything was square. They didn't, still don't, and unions are still around.

Anyone surprised?

Doctors would go away if people stopped getting hurt and ill. They don't and so doctors still exist.

If a company can create its own laws and regulations to manipulate its workforce, then the people can also create its own power (a union) to have a say as well. If the company doesn't like it, then fire everyone and get new workers. It is as simple as that.

What is fair is fair.

Treat your workers fairly and like real people and the argument for a union dies.


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## B-Pecan (Sep 25, 2007)

:wahwah: Quit your job that you hate so much and apply for welfare...


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## Pedal2Floor (Jul 29, 2006)

BMW Employee said:


> A while back someone posted and said "if this abuse is happening at other non union transnational work sites, then why haven't we heard about it"?
> 
> Here is a nice reference:
> 
> ...


Care to given any references written by someone independent of a union? A singular union view point does not help. If I follow the money, it goes to union managment. Unions are more to keep those in union management in a job versus creating work or opportunity. I don't see where the union has their skin in the game and taking any business risk -- all the risk is on the company. I see the job pools that are still going on with the big three paying people to simply sit around for something to happen. I also don't believe in "guaranteed" work contracts. I see unions helping themselves versus mutually working together with business.

Having previously had experience having forced to be part of a construction union, I can say that I am glad I am not part of any that today. Where I can't hang a light in a room temporarly to get some work done because I am taking away a job from some electrician. Where medocricity is bread because there is not incentive to do my work any better I just need to do the minimum because the next guy get paid exactly what I do no matter how good I am at my job. Even when sitting on the picket line, there are several union groups sueing theirr union management for overtime pay for being on the picket line for more than their alloted time. My childhood memory is Raybestos brakes plant in Startford, CT basically being shutdown by unions because they could no longer pay for the contract which the state helped enforce till the plant basically had to close.

Are there some documented modern examples where a union shop helped save a company versus a non-union shop?

In the non-union world we know that we are no longer competing with the guy down the block or in the next state, we need to compete against the world. There has to be a reason why I need to pay you more than someone in Brazil, Russia, India and China. What are unions doing to show all the demands will help a company compete and that they are better than their counter parts in other countries without unions?

If BMW is so bad, why is it not possible to just get another job. If BMW has problems getting people to hire because of their practices, then they will be forced to change or loose business. I travel to China and in some of my company plants, if the guy next door is paying even $1 US more, people start to leave for the other guy. If another company does something as simple as give extra rice at lunch, people leave and we need to compete by doing the same. What disappoints me about unions is "demands" and "guarantees" that are one way. The big detroit 3 had to basically fall apart before the union came to the table and even then, they had to come dragging and kicking and the membership was ready to close them down for good.

I don't see any examples where unions and union management have done anything except to help themselves.

Can you provide sources that are independent of union propoganda that if it was not for the union the company would have shut down?


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## avidude (Oct 20, 2007)

Boy I sure hope BMW keeps the union out. All we need is the auto workers union to screw up another manufacturer. If you dont like your benefits then find another job.


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

Pedal2Floor said:


> Are there some documented modern examples where a union shop helped save a company versus a non-union shop?


Very good post and great points, but I'll key in on this as the crux of the matter.

Unions aren't there to save companies. They are there to help its workers. Unions do not care about the health of a company unless its workers are threatened.

Companies are non-human entities. People are humans. Union protect people.

So, a lot of arguments here of apples versus oranges. Unions might be bad for companies in some instances (like the Big Three when their management didn't have the foresight to renegotiate its deal with them...as if they thought SUVs would rule forever). However, that is not the point of unions. Unions are not there to help companies. If they help create a very satisfied workforce, then the company will benefit indirectly.

So, in arguing that unions don't help companies. You are somewhat correct. But also somewhat missing the point.

I just find it funny how people are so quick to bash unions, especially after all the gains unions have given the common working person over the last 100 years, but so hesitant to bash the multi-billion dollar, and usually corrupt, corporations that couldn't care less about anything else, people or otherwise, except its bottom-line.

Why is that?:dunno:

And yes, btw, I do feel that $30 an hour for the working stiff at the Big Three is just a tad too much. But then again, I didn't hire them in at that.


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## BMW Employee (Oct 9, 2005)

You know when I posted here 2 years ago, I asked for support for a human rights declaration. A human rights declaration in which a corporation agreed in that declaration that it would allow human rights in it's work sites.

I asked if customers were willing to ask BMW to honor only what it said it would do willingly. Much like if your politician promises and doesn't deliver.

At that time I used to love the company I worked for, but cared about improving the lives of my peers. I am now embarrassed to tell people I work for BMW. I feel humiliated every single time I'm asked and hear someone say how I should feel indebted to a company and I'm nothing without them. I am a person, I am a human, and I have human rights.

Regardless of someones creed when you say "unions are worthless" in this context your talking about us; my co-workers, myself, and others. They are breaking their bones, loosing their grips, and giving up their health to an employer that drives them harder every single minute they can. Their families are affected. And when BMW spends them, they will throw them away like trash. We estimate 500 - 1000 or so got just that when the company sent them letters home saying "since your injured, don't call us, we'll call you back to work when your 100%".

They never got the call, a temporary did. 1200 of them. Our state gave them $100 million dollars for 400 new jobs when they fired people every day instead.

Since this declaration that BMW also agreed to comply with all labor laws was enacted, BMW was busted instead by the U.S. Department of labor for the opposite. Many of you laugh at that. The settlement was paid out at minimum wage.

So now as a college graduate myself (who likes working with their hands) I ask, when did you decide I was illiterate since I supported a union? Or better yet I love the "if you just get an education, you'll understand". Does it mean since I have a degree myself, that I should quit and go to China for a company here and watch humans be abused so I can feel superior? That's what many of you suggested....in so many ways. Let's measure ourselves in servitude while the wealthiest families of the world sit back and laugh at us.

But guess what, in so many ways, I will use my college degree to tell you one thing. Don't think your employer put's you on a pedestal and doesn't think of replacing you with a hire in from India or another work visa recipient for 1/2 price.

Some responses to a basic human rights question are met by some who come in and say "oh not this again, I thought we got rid of you - you ungrateful worker". Or how about *"I'd love to design the robot that replaces you".*

Many people have asked fair questions, some have led the charge in against the "you uneducated BMW worker" coalition. I really do appreciate the support.

I did not come to watch a debate over my so called "lack of experience or education level" or "charge of corruption due to creed".

I suppose now I'll tell you I am a Christian, so flame away on that too, brothers and sisters!

My co-workers are getting chewed up and spit out like garbage. Like garbage. I ask again now, as a human being before you, do you care enough about another human being to be willing to tell this company to respect it's workers as you are the customers and are well aware of these acts? Do you care about these people who build your cars?

Yes or no?


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## lild (Sep 11, 2007)

yes i care, i to work in the auto industry. i repair and repaint damage cars that you folks make. i work long hours for many weeks. i do lose precious time with my wife and child. i get tired, frustrated,and feel burned out on several occasions. i to work with my hands and love the work i do. the work i do is dangerous to my health. i have to wear rubber gloves a paint suit, a air mask that just does past osha standards. my hands ache when i bend them because of the chemicals dry them out. but i do love my job, it's the only one i had since leaving high school. i have been with the same employer for 15 yrs. i have no med. no retirement, not because it's not offered, but i can not afford it. the dangers, in my idustry are just as real as yours, and i too have to wory about unseen probs.. yes we can be replaced just as easy, most move from job to job because work slowes down. our pay raised are based on what insurance comp. will pay per hour, but yet the same insurance comp. pays mech. twice as much. and when you guys go on strike it hurts me. we can't fix cars if they are not being made, or if parts are not being produce. so will union help. no,i'll have to pay some strange person to argue a new pay raise, health isurance. etc.., why i can just do the same my self or just leave. you know if bmw is commititing any voilations you can report them to the proper authorites, so if you have a prob. blame the state after all they gave bmw a lot of money to be there, why, because it does bring jobs. people sometimes just need to accept the work they are given and not complian too much. mexico is not that far away, and their labor is far cheaper than what you make. and you are wrong, i can not be replace by cheap labor, because i made sure that i accel in what i do, becomeing the best, i work hard to please my boss, he knows i care about his bussiness and his intrest, no i'm not a but kisser, he sees that i work hard and give everything i have because if i don't my family suffers, and he has rewarde me well with raises, yearly bonus, christmas bonous, and recently a 98' 528i, that i was more than happy to fix my self with my hands. a company is only as good as the employees care for it to be. so if bmw wasn't there most of you would have no work, no ecomney,most companies just say hey we want to put up a factory, it's our local gov. that gives the incentives to come, tax breaks,etc.etc. so is it they don't respect you or is it that your just pissed like the rest of us, because life is becomeing more expensive to live, and the check just don't cut it no more, you know it's things like unions that's help it get here, jobs are leaving because comps. can no longer pay the price for the labor. and that pisses me off. so when you want unions to come in just think will it hurt any one else out side on the comp.. yes it does.


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## f1fan (Jun 22, 2007)

Not much to add to the above thread except that unions prey on your fear and tell you that you will make more money.


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## Pedal2Floor (Jul 29, 2006)

"While the idea of offering an incentive for employees to do their job might be a surprise to the rest of us working stiffs, the auto industry's hourly workforce has one of the highest annual absenteeism rates in the U.S. A 2004 study showed that about 10-percent of workers aren't manning their positions during the year – three-times higher than other industries. Naturally, this has a massive effect on labor costs and quality control.

GM has tried a number of different programs to lower that absentee rate to no avail (sometimes it actually went up ), but in addition to the cash giveaway program, a new absence excuse system will be employed January 1st that puts more stringent restrictions on employee attendance. Workers will now need to show proof of test results or a prescription slip for medical issues, and if the problem persists, the offending employee will be given the axe."

Via Detroit News and AutoBlog 11/12/07


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## rafa7 (Sep 5, 2007)

To BMW of North America: Braaaaavo!!!! 

Job well done BMWNA -another reason for me to trade in for a 750Li 
 (in a couple of years thou, I just got this magnificent, extravagant, state of the art machinery, and I plan to enjoy every bit of it to the fullest)

Meanwhile, why don't you give it up bmwemployee and, like me, enjoy your BMW. 

Because if I remember correctly you, just like any other BMW plant employee, get a leased brand new 3 series or Z class BMW right out the factory floor, where you choose the color and leather. And you get to do this every three to six months and for a minimal monthly payment -PENNIES!!!! And on top of that; full warranty, full maintenance, paid insurance?, etc., you need only to put gas for three/six months and then pick up your new BMW again. Now, that's what I call 'living the good life.'

You kidding me?
:bigpimp:


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

rfami said:


> To BMW of North America: Braaaaavo!!!!
> 
> Job well done BMWNA -another reason for me to trade in for a 750Li
> (in a couple of years thou, I just got this magnificent, extravagant, state of the art machinery, and I plan to enjoy every bit of it to the fullest)
> ...


Are you drunk?


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## rafa7 (Sep 5, 2007)

Policia? Then: NO!
:rofl:

Don't belive that? Then ask bmwemployee, he should be able to tell us.


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## M3Addict (Jan 4, 2006)

bten said:


> I have two BMW's built at your plant and love them both, an X5 and a Z4.
> 
> Keep up the good work :thumbup:


Same here! X5 and M Roadster. Keep up the good work!


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