# 335is fail



## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

beden1 said:


> Actually though, if one were really interested in pure performance, they would not consider a BMW or an Audi (Except maybe for the over priced R8).
> .


How is a $110k R8 overpriced with a $280k F430, $280k SLS, a $350k LS-F, a Lambo Gallardo $200k, $140k 911 turbo, and $160k Aston Martins as sisters? I'm not a multi-millionaire yet, but the R8 is the most expensive car I could EVER justify buying to another mortal. And I think it is a tremendous bargain.

I mean, a 760il runs $140k. An S65 AMG runs $190k.


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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

Michael Schott said:


> I'm not sure of your point. As others have said, the new S4 has surpassed the 335 which is in the 6th year of its life. The S4 has been out a year. Also, without the fancy differential on the Audi which requires an expensive package, the 335 is at least its equal. If you are careful you can get a very nice 335 with ZSP for under $48K.
> 
> Otherwise Audi has not shown any great strides lately. the A6 is in the rear view mirror of the newer 5 series and E series Mercedes and the A8 has always been a fat limo. Kudo's to the great R8.
> 
> The M3 and all other M series BMW's are beasts even if they are SUV's. They are not posers but the real thing.


The S4 diff was like $900 invoice. Isn't that what Sirius and iPod costs on the BMW, which is a standard feature on any Audi to boot?

A 335is with the features of a base S4 is $5k more. Might even out on a sedan, but the horsepower and torque would be 15% off.

The A6 3.0T (same supercharged engine as the S4) came in 1st place in this month's Car and Driver, ahead of the G37 and lastly the 535i (which lost because of numb steering). The 535i was also over $5 grand more than the class leading A6.


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

westwest888 said:


> The S4 diff was like $900 invoice. Isn't that what Sirius and iPod costs on the BMW, which is a standard feature on any Audi to boot?
> 
> A 335is with the features of a base S4 is $5k more. Might even out on a sedan, but the horsepower and torque would be 15% off.
> 
> The A6 3.0T (same supercharged engine as the S4) came in 1st place in this month's Car and Driver, ahead of the G37 and lastly the 535i (which lost because of numb steering). The 535i was also over $5 grand more than the class leading A6.


How can Audi be taken seriously as a performance engine manufacturer when they call a supercharger a turbo?

They compared the G37 to the A6 and 535? They didn't have an M37 at the time?


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

westwest888 said:


> The S4 diff was like $900 invoice. Isn't that what Sirius and iPod costs on the BMW, which is a standard feature on any Audi to boot?
> 
> A 335is with the features of a base S4 is $5k more. Might even out on a sedan, but the horsepower and torque would be 15% off.
> 
> The A6 3.0T (same supercharged engine as the S4) came in 1st place in this month's Car and Driver, ahead of the G37 and lastly the 535i (which lost because of numb steering). The 535i was also over $5 grand more than the class leading A6.


It's the same supercharged engine, but detuned to output less compared to the S4. I also think you meant M45.

here is the link to the article http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2009_audi_a6_3.0t_vs._2009_bmw_535i_2009_infiniti_m45_2009_jaguar_xf_2010_m-b_e350-comparison_tests


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

westwest888 said:


> How is a $110k R8 overpriced with a $280k F430, $280k SLS, a $350k LS-F, a Lambo Gallardo $200k, $140k 911 turbo, and $160k Aston Martins as sisters? I'm not a multi-millionaire yet, but the R8 is the most expensive car I could EVER justify buying to another mortal. And I think it is a tremendous bargain.
> 
> I mean, a 760il runs $140k. An S65 AMG runs $190k.


Comparing the new Audi to true sports cars with heritage like the Ferrari, Porsche and Mercedes is just silly.

The 10 cylinder one I saw that was sold at the dealership was actually $160,000. IMO, the 8 cylinder version is not worth the effort, except in the looks good department.

At the $110,000 range that you listed, my pick would have to go for the ZR1, but I'm more into performance versus looks!


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

beden1 said:


> Comparing the new Audi to true sports cars with heritage like the Ferrari, Porsche and Mercedes is just silly.
> 
> The 10 cylinder one I saw that was sold at the dealership was actually $160,000. IMO, the 8 cylinder version is not worth the effort, except in the looks good department.
> 
> At the $110,000 range that you listed, my pick would have to go for the ZR1, but I'm more into performance versus looks!


I wouldn't say not worth it. It's probably the only near super-car comfortable enough to drive on a daily basis. It's the every day super car.

The ZR1 is a lot of performance for the money, competing with cars costing twice as much, but feels like I should be drinking Budweiser and watching NASCAR on the weekends for fun to be driving this car.


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## Aija (Dec 11, 2005)

Audi has done a good job with the S4..Although personally, (and I might be in the minority here), i prefer the LCI E90 deign over the S4. I love the S5 (even better than my E92) but i find the S4 a little dull and boring other than the LED thing they got going in their headlights. Of course looks are subjective. 

As far as performance goes, like everyone else said, Audi S4 just recently came out. F30 is expected in 2012, so we will see how BMW responds to the competition. I remember that the E46 was only in the low 200 HP range until the E9X series. Im glad Audi is getting competitive with their cars; it only forces BMW to strive higher. 

Being only in the mid twenties, i prefer two door cars. So for me, my comparison was between the S5 and E92. When i was shopping for both cars, the S5 was 8k+ more than the 335 with a longer delivery date (if you ordered).

Your comparison was an S4 (Four Door) with an E92 335is (2 door). Of that 5k difference, of course the coupe is going to cost more than the sedan. (Look at the price difference of the S4 and S5).


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

westwest888 said:


> The S4 diff was like $900 invoice. Isn't that what Sirius and iPod costs on the BMW, which is a standard feature on any Audi to boot?
> 
> A 335is with the features of a base S4 is $5k more. Might even out on a sedan, but the horsepower and torque would be 15% off.
> 
> The A6 3.0T (same supercharged engine as the S4) came in 1st place in this month's Car and Driver, ahead of the G37 and lastly the 535i (which lost because of numb steering). The 535i was also over $5 grand more than the class leading A6.


I'm talking about the 335i not the is. It's only marginally slower at a much lower price. I haven't read the CD article yet but thanks for the heads up.


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## Michael Schott (Dec 7, 2007)

One more point. Yes the S4 is better than a 335i but the A4 is a luxury car not a sports sedan. I'm shopping for my next car and the price range is about $37K retail. I've looked at the A4 and G37 but am leaning towards another 328i as it looks to be the sportiest in that price range. I like the A4 interior but it's a bit too much luxury for my taste and the car itself is fat. Also, BMW's I6 engine is more appropriate to a car in this price range than Audi's turbo 4 cylinder.


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## rikwynn (Feb 6, 2007)

Its $5K more because its a better car. Why dont you go drive your tarted up Passat and stop posting on here.



westwest888 said:


> BMW has become an appearance company. From M turbocharging, to M SUVs and SAVs, to the M3 competition package that is just a set of cast wheels, to the 335is that is just a body kit and an 8% software tune, to the new 5 series that is basically a limousine 7 series, they've lost their way with driving enthusiasts. Ironically the one car that could have had club racing potential (the 1 series) has been given no M treatment. BMW even pulled out of F1 racing in 2009. So much for that technology making it onto production cars. And why no supercar from BMW when there's an R8, an LF-A, a ZR-1, an SLS? What are we supposed to dream about?
> 
> I submit (2m30s):
> 
> ...


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## CT (May 20, 2007)

For awhile, West, your threads were an interesting aside to the normal HPFP complaints and never-ending supply of 'what gas should I use?' questions. Lately, though, it seems you've resorted to using this forum as a sounding board for your latest fanboyisms of the Audi variety. Is this all you've got left for us? Have you nothing more interesting to tell us than "You should drive an Audi because BMW, as I have now discovered, is the sucks?"


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## Bill-SD (Feb 18, 2002)

ct said:


> for awhile, west, your threads were an interesting aside to the normal hpfp complaints and never-ending supply of 'what gas should i use?' questions. Lately, though, it seems you've resorted to using this forum as a sounding board for your latest fanboyisms of the audi variety. Is this all you've got left for us? Have you nothing more interesting to tell us than "you should drive an audi because bmw, as i have now discovered, is the sucks?"


+1


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## beden1 (Dec 22, 2007)

sf_loft said:


> I wouldn't say not worth it. It's probably the only near super-car comfortable enough to drive on a daily basis. It's the every day super car.
> 
> *The ZR1 is a lot of performance for the money, competing with cars costing twice as much, but feels like I should be drinking Budweiser and watching NASCAR on the weekends for fun to be driving this car*.


I really don't understand comments like these regarding the Corvette "Stereotype"? Fortunately, I have matured to the point where I do or have things I personally enjoy, and not to try to impress others!


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## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Enjoy your new ride now, but good luck with your Howdy when it comes time to trade or sell it. You might receive enough to buy the Sirius and i-Pod on your next Bimmer.

dk


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## jummo (Aug 18, 2002)

I tried really hard to like the S4 better than the 335xi. The nearest BMW dealer is almost 200 miles away. The Audi store is 12 miles away. I read the magazines, so I went and test drove an S4.

It's a very nice car and it drove exceptionally well and has all kinds of buttons and gadgets inside. And when I was done I took my 07 335xi back on the same road and drove it.

The Audi is a larger, much heavier car.There is also a sense of mass out in front of the car that never went away. I felt I was always following the front of the car around corners.

The BMW felt much more nimble, and gives the sensation of rotating around the driver.
Also steering feel, clutch feel, brakes and so on, were much more connected and linear in the BMW than the Audi.

I was quite surprised at the difference. Had I not driven them back to back like this, I would have bought the Audi. And I'm sure I would be very happy with it, as it is a fine car.

Either way, one thing is certain, whichever car I picked, I wouldn't be at the other marque's chatroom playing fanboi. 

But then that's just common sense, isn't it?

jummo


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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

CT said:


> For awhile, West, your threads were an interesting aside to the normal HPFP complaints and never-ending supply of 'what gas should I use?' questions. Lately, though, it seems you've resorted to using this forum as a sounding board for your latest fanboyisms of the Audi variety. Is this all you've got left for us? Have you nothing more interesting to tell us than "You should drive an Audi because BMW, as I have now discovered, is the sucks?"


*All I want to do is talk about sports cars, racing and technology.* There's a lot riding on the new F30 chassis and "laying it out there" for all the internets to see could be productive, but I fear the die has been cast. If it comes out looking larger than an E60 5 series we're going to have a serious problem regarding my 2 of my 3 talking points above.

@MichaelSchott I agree the 328i blows the A4 out of the water in every dimension of performance at an equal price. 328i has handling, steering, the best inline six ever made. A4 has trunk space, a great MMI system standard. It took a lot of time and effort to turn my 328i into a sports car - namely coilovers, camber plates, swaybars, and a lot of exhaust tuning. Even though the brakes did well with track pads, the components in the calipers couldn't take the heat. The dust boot and the pad wear sensors melted several times a season.

@///M-ratedE90 yeah it was an M37. Oops. They look the same now from the front.

@rikwynn for the past decade Audi has had its own chasses. The A4/A5/A6/Q5 are all on the same platform. Sometimes at the end of life, they'll use an Audi chassis for a VW. The 2002 A4 platform (B6 platform two generations old) is now being used for the VW CC.

@beden1 I've heard the base LS3 Corvette is the most fun to drive at the track. Some people think the Z06 feels oddly disconnected with its unique chassis. I'm not aware of anyone who has brought a ZR-1 to the track and lived to tell about it


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

rikwynn said:


> Its $5K more because its a better car. Why dont you go drive your tarted up Passat and stop posting on here.


Hey now. It's not a passat. The A4 and Passat stopped sharing platforms since the B6. The latest B8 platform is shared only with the A4,A5, and the new A8 and the next gen A6. This is a public forum but it's a BMW forum and I agree with most that the posts should be constructive and should not be so anti BMW.

Regarding the 335is, this is typical BMW where they always throw in a special edition near the end of the cars lifecycle. Better? Maybe more fun, but I haven't seen any comparos. It's $5k more but partly because it's only available in coupe form. BMW is simply trying to squeeze in more money from the 3 series lineup with the 335is. To them it's a software update ($0 cost high margin), 18" wheels with a different design (prob still cheaper to produce compared to a set of 225's 19"), textured aluminum with badging trim (recyclable and easy to manufacture, little cost), and firmer suspension (different set of springs, minor cost). To the consumer it's a better car and marketing sells it that way. It's business and if you're smart enough to see you can simply get a regular 335 and be happy.

I love my S4 but is it better than the two e92 335s that I owned? I would say it's different and both are good in it's unique ways. The head to head comparos show nearly equal #s and the S4 slightly edging the bimmer by fractions but at a cost. My S4 fully loaded came out to $61k, is it worth it compared to my previously loaded e92 335 at $55k, if only in performance, no. In everyday driving anyone would love to have either cars. The S4 has to incorporate the new differential technology just to compete with the 335 due to its weight and 55/45 dist. It's impressive that a 4wd car can do that, but it didn't blow it out of the water. The 335is is the same way designed to fill the gap between the 335 and M3, but we have yet to see reviews of its performance in comparison to a regular 335 or an S4.


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## Wingman335 (Apr 24, 2010)

CT said:


> For awhile, West, your threads were an interesting aside to the normal HPFP complaints and never-ending supply of 'what gas should I use?' questions. Lately, though, it seems you've resorted to using this forum as a sounding board for your latest fanboyisms of the Audi variety. Is this all you've got left for us? Have you nothing more interesting to tell us than "You should drive an Audi because BMW, as I have now discovered, is the sucks?"


+1 I have noticed this pattern as well.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

jummo said:


> I tried really hard to like the S4 better than the 335xi. The nearest BMW dealer is almost 200 miles away. The Audi store is 12 miles away. I read the magazines, so I went and test drove an S4.
> 
> It's a very nice car and it drove exceptionally well and has all kinds of buttons and gadgets inside. And when I was done I took my 07 335xi back on the same road and drove it.
> 
> ...


You need to be more detailed as to which spec S4 you test drove and whether or not it had the rear sport differential and that the car was driven in dynamic mode. Front heavy cars tend to understeer and having the torque vectoring system eliminates that. I've driven a 335xi and it's nothing like my 335 e92 in terms of sportiness.


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

Wingman335 said:


> +1 I have noticed this pattern as well.


Look at it this way...you can imagine that on an Passat Audi forum, everyone is insecure about their ride. It must get depressing. Here, there are only two of them...:dunno:


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

sf_loft said:


> You need to be more detailed as to which spec S4 you test drove and whether or not it had the rear sport differential and that the car was driven in dynamic mode. Front heavy cars tend to understeer and having the torque vectoring system eliminates that. I've driven a 335xi and it's nothing like my 335 e92 in terms of sportiness.


So the S4 needs a fancy electronic nanny to make it a good ride/driveable.
Sounds like good design!


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

beden1 said:


> I really don't understand comments like these regarding the Corvette "Stereotype"? Fortunately, I have matured to the point where I do or have things I personally enjoy, and not to try to impress others!


I just never grew up dreaming of owning a corvette and my parents always had american cars. I even owned two different Chevys after graduating from college. I've always wanted the Porsches and BMWs but prioritized in paying off those student loans. I never got into muscle cars and I've always viewed the corvette as the top of that class. The z06 and ZR1 are badass cars without a doubt but what demographic are they trying to reach when they are used as pace cars at NASCAR and when Jeff Gordon rolls the car out at the detroit motor show. In every stereotype there's always some truth to it. Clearly I'm not trying to impress anyone since I drive a rebadged VW. I actually enjoy being free of the BMW stereotype. People look at me and the car, gives me :thumbup:, and not that other look when seeing an M3. U


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## CT (May 20, 2007)

westwest888 said:


> *All I want to do is talk about sports cars, racing and technology.* There's a lot riding on the new F30 chassis and "laying it out there" for all the internets to see could be productive, but I fear the die has been cast. If it comes out looking larger than an E60 5 series we're going to have a serious problem regarding my 2 of my 3 talking points above.


That's all well and good, don't get me wrong. I enjoy motorsports, driving and the ramifications of auto design as much as anyone else here. My issue is that you're essentially cheering for the Jets while visiting Pittsburgh. Just seems that there's a more appropriate place for general automotive discourse than, you know, the E9x boards.

Holding discussions about the competition is great and all but at some point the board loses focus on its intent - providing relevant information about E9x's - while providing a whole lot of internet debate about a car that's about to enter DIY-servicing territory and its competitors. Entire threads dedicated to, essentially, a billboard for Audi is counterproductive and generally doesn't serve what I would perceive is your intended effect - European-biased discussions of performance automotives. What it really does is bring out bashing posts and infects the board with whine-flu.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

///M-ratedE90 said:


> Look at it this way...you can imagine that on an Passat Audi forum, everyone is insecure about their ride. It must get depressing. Here, there are only two of them...:dunno:


Lol. None of them are actually. If you look, it is very civilized unless you go to the A4 section where it is equiv to e90post. Bimmerfest is more mature compared to e90post. I have been a member here for 3+ years when I had my 335 and love it here. There's a lot more chatter and interesting topics here. The audi boards are dead and you only see posts of people picking up their cars and potential buyers waiting on their orders. BMW mass produce and ships more of their cars compared to Audi so there are a lot less driving on the roads. Only 3k S4s were shipped to the US for 2010 and we don't have as many members. We have VW to compete with BMW on mass production vehicles, and I don't mind being more exclusive


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

sf_loft said:


> I just never grew up dreaming of owning a corvette and my parents always had american cars. I even owned two different Chevys after graduating from college. I've always wanted the Porsches and BMWs but prioritized in paying off those student loans. I never got into muscle cars and I've always viewed the corvette as the top of that class. The z06 and ZR1 are badass cars without a doubt but what demographic are they trying to reach when they are used as pace cars at NASCAR and when Jeff Gordon rolls the car out at the detroit motor show. In every stereotype there's always some truth to it. Clearly I'm not trying to impress anyone since I drive a rebadged VW. I actually enjoy being free of the BMW stereotype. People look at me and the car, gives me :thumbup:, and not that other look when seeing an M3. U


For clarification of facial expressions:
The Audi thumbs up:








The 'other' M3 look:









BTW: for clarification, you've had an M3, right?


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

///M-ratedE90 said:


> So the S4 needs a fancy electronic nanny to make it a good ride/driveable.
> Sounds like good design!


You drive an M3 you should know


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## jummo (Aug 18, 2002)

sf_loft said:


> You need to be more detailed as to which spec S4 you test drove and whether or not it had the rear sport differential and that the car was driven in dynamic mode. Front heavy cars tend to understeer and having the torque vectoring system eliminates that. I've driven a 335xi and it's nothing like my 335 e92 in terms of sportiness.


The car I test drove had Drive Select and the torque vectoring differential. I drove it in Dynamic mode on the twisty section and tried the other modes on the highway. I liked being able to change the car's character with a few buttons.

I didn't say I didn't like the car, quite the opposite. It just felt front heavy, not understeering.
In general I was more aware of the car's mass relative to the BMW.

Given my automotive wants and needs, there aren't that many cars I need to entertain, the S4 was an obvious and worthy consideration.

jummo


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

sf_loft said:


> You drive an M3 you should know




The M3, and all BMWs, is designed to be balanced, always have been, but Audi's have, like you said, hung the engine over the front axle and understeer without significant electronic nannies. Put another way, I would be happier pushing it in an M3 without the nannies than an S4 without the nannies. Like a guy said above, without the e-diff, he didn't like the ride.

I call on Westwest to try out his S4 with and without nannies on the track! I look forward to an unbiased review!!!:eeps:


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## Mk23 (May 12, 2008)

Just an FYI, BMW M division said they were going to make an M1. They made an official announcement a few months ago. So I don't know where the OP got that they weren't.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

///M-ratedE90 said:


> For clarification of facial expressions:
> The Audi thumbs up:
> 
> 
> ...


:rofl: nice one!

For clarification I never had an M3. Was close to getting the coupe but didn't like it for my daily driver needs. It is the better car sir and not even going to compare it in anyway with the S4. I live in SF where there is a lot of well to do yuppies, hipsters, and image conscious people. These cars are driven extra slow, parked like a holes, and driven by the stereotypical d-bags not all but some. The M3 is a head turner without a doubt, but I have observed the negative stereotype look more often. Mostly by haters of course.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

I just bought a 2011 335 and certainly compared it to the S4. The S4 left me unimpressed. Exterior styling is immensely bland. The interior seems very nice at first, but I can see the futuristic look of it being very dated in a few years. The e9x interior is more of a timeless design.

I also do not find the Audi interior to be of higher quality. Audi is very good at disguising where they cut corners. If you put the Audi interior up to increased scrutiny, you will probably find BMW to have the more solid and well put together interior. Touch and push on every single panel in the Audi, and then do the same in the BMW. The BMW felt much more solid and higher quality to me.

There were many other deciding factors for me as well in choosing the BMW. I'm also a bit of a do-it-yourselfer, and the BMW is a much better choice due to the larger following and online community. The Audi forums aren't very helpful and seem to be full of posts similar to the OP in justifying their purchase vs. the other luxury brands.

In the end, Audi just felt like a second-rate brand to me (and the dealerships made this impression even worse). I really dislike all of the overlap with VW and how they dip into the parts bins of $18K cars. The same holds true for Lexus and Infiniti. BMW and MB will always have the edge in that regard.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

///M-ratedE90 said:


> The M3, and all BMWs, is designed to be balanced, always have been, but Audi's have, like you said, hung the engine over the front axle and understeer without significant electronic nannies. Put another way, I would be happier pushing it in an M3 without the nannies than an S4 without the nannies. Like a guy said above, without the e-diff, he didn't like the ride.
> 
> I call on Westwest to try out his S4 with and without nannies on the track! I look forward to an unbiased review!!!:eeps:


The s4 again should not be competing against the m3. I don't think anyone is trying to put the two in the same league. Would you push a 335 against an S4 without e-diff?


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## westwest888 (Jun 12, 2005)

///M-ratedE90 said:


> The M3, and all BMWs, is designed to be balanced, always have been, but Audi's have, like you said, hung the engine over the front axle and understeer without significant electronic nannies. Put another way, I would be happier pushing it in an M3 without the nannies than an S4 without the nannies. Like a guy said above, without the e-diff, he didn't like the ride.
> 
> I call on Westwest to try out his S4 with and without nannies on the track! I look forward to an unbiased review!!!:eeps:


Sure will. To be clear, the sport differential is not a nanny any more than the M3 EDC / magnetic suspension is. Your M3 has a limited slip with one clutch pack; the S4 has an independent clutch pack for each half shaft. The M3's LSD is passively engaged by wheel slip which causes the clutches to lock up. The S4 LSD is actively engaged by a computer measuring half shaft speed, among other variables. It's on 100% of the time, like valve timing or anything else you can't control yourself.

I can turn off stability control and then the nannies are off.

I'll get her out on the track in the Fall and then start a vaguely e90 related thread about it, which will be lamented by bimmerfest pundits. The most logical place to go would be Infineon Raceway in Sonoma, CA because I've taken the e90 there and it's an epic track. It's actually sponsored by Audi and Audi has a permanent high performance driving school on site. The brand might have seeped into my brain a long time ago.


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

the J-Man said:


> I just bought a 2011 335 and certainly compared it to the S4. The S4 left me unimpressed. Exterior styling is immensely bland. The interior seems very nice at first, but I can see the futuristic look of it being very dated in a few years. The e9x interior is more of a timeless design.
> 
> I also do not find the Audi interior to be of higher quality. Audi is very good at disguising where they cut corners. If you put the Audi interior up to increased scrutiny, you will probably find BMW to have the more solid and well put together interior. Touch and push on every single panel in the Audi, and then do the same in the BMW. The BMW felt much more solid and higher quality to me.
> 
> ...


I personally don't even consider any of the Audi products to be true "sports sedan." When I think sports sedan, I think of a RWD platform that is engineered from ground up for the purpose. Audi and Acura are two companies that essentially strap AWD systems on to technology derived from mass market products because it is not economically feasible to engineer a platform from the scratch.

IMO, the only true sports sedans available for under $50,000 so are the E9x and the G37. The IS350 and C-class come close, but both have too many dynamic limitations to truly qualify.

I do disagree with you about the interior issues though. To me, the Audi always screams quality when you sit inside it. In fact, I think the interior on the last gen Passat (not so much the current gen) used a higher grade of materials than my E91.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

the J-Man said:


> I just bought a 2011 335 and certainly compared it to the S4. The S4 left me unimpressed. Exterior styling is immensely bland. The interior seems very nice at first, but I can see the futuristic look of it being very dated in a few years. The e9x interior is more of a timeless design.
> 
> I also do not find the Audi interior to be of higher quality. Audi is very good at disguising where they cut corners. If you put the Audi interior up to increased scrutiny, you will probably find BMW to have the more solid and well put together interior. Touch and push on every single panel in the Audi, and then do the same in the BMW. The BMW felt much more solid and higher quality to me.
> 
> ...


Your viewpoint is funny. Just because BMW does not dip into the parts bin of an $18k car automatically makes it first rate. That BMW part may cost the same to manufacture and of the same quality but you pay twice for it and it makes you feel better? Infiniti for example uses the same V6 in the G37, FX37, and M37 as they do with the nissan lineup, slightly tuned more though, but it is a world class engine that will probably outlast any German engine. It's cost efficient and you upgrade on parts and materials that really distinguish you from your sibling. BMW, MB, and even Audi is charging a premium for the brand name. You are probably paying 2x more for a part because it has the BMW original part label. Bmw is a mass produced luxury car and if they only use magnesium and unatainium parts they wouldn't be profitable.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

Kilgore Trout said:


> I personally don't even consider any of the Audi products to be true "sports sedan." When I think sports sedan, I think of a RWD platform that is engineered from ground up for the purpose. Audi and Acura are two companies that essentially strap AWD systems on to technology derived from mass market products because it is not economically feasible to engineer a platform from the scratch.
> 
> IMO, the only true sports sedans available for under $50,000 so are the E9x and the G37. The IS350 and C-class come close, but both have too many dynamic limitations to truly qualify.
> 
> I do disagree with you about the interior issues though. To me, the Audi always screams quality when you sit inside it. In fact, I think the interior on the last gen Passat (not so much the current gen) used a higher grade of materials than my E91.


It's a different philosophy. Audi has been around for a long time and have developed multiple platforms from the ground up. Their performance division quattro gmbh just believes in the awd philosophy for safety and performance. I don't see them changing their stance and are making cars that perform just as well. Perhaps not as much fun to drive but it gets you there just as precise and quick with added confidence. Both are well engineered German cars and we should all be happy that competition is alive.


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## BMW_F1 (Nov 6, 2009)

Being an avid F1 fan I would say that really F1 does not have the most directly applicable technology. KERS development was there, and I guess paddel shifters, and seamless shift gearboxes came from F1, but F1 development costs are astronomical. Also F1 cars race at at 18,000 rpm for 2 hours, and require a crew of 25 just to get moving, and most moving parts last 1000 miles. It is most probably cheaper to develop it on a more traditional platform, and to make the Ultimate Driving Machine you do not need F1, but other development platforms, both competitive and on roads. I would think LeMans with the M3 or GT racing would be much more applicable, though you could say F1 has a much larger development push and track record. Furthermore only Mercedes, Renault, and Ferrari still have factory teams, that is 3 out of 12 teams, or 4 if you could Lotus Racing, which is partially owned by Proton who own the Lotus car brand. 

-BMW_F1


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

sf_loft said:


> Your viewpoint is funny. Just because BMW does not dip into the parts bin of an $18k car automatically makes it first rate. That BMW part may cost the same to manufacture and of the same quality but you pay twice for it and it makes you feel better? Infiniti for example uses the same V6 in the G37, FX37, and M37 as they do with the nissan lineup, slightly tuned more though, but it is a world class engine that will probably outlast any German engine. It's cost efficient and you upgrade on parts and materials that really distinguish you from your sibling. BMW, MB, and even Audi is charging a premium for the brand name. You are probably paying 2x more for a part because it has the BMW original part label. Bmw is a mass produced luxury car and if they only use magnesium and unatainium parts they wouldn't be profitable.


 What I'm saying is that I don't want to sit in a $50K Audi and find parts from an $18K Golf. Look at your sunroof switch, and then go look at the sunroof switch in the Golf. Same thing. I want my $50K+ car to have a bit of exclusivity and uniqueness to it.


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## the J-Man (Jul 31, 2009)

Kilgore Trout said:


> I do disagree with you about the interior issues though. To me, the Audi always screams quality when you sit inside it. In fact, I think the interior on the last gen Passat (not so much the current gen) used a higher grade of materials than my E91.


 I used to think the exact same thing about Audi interiors until I really started looking closely and how they are put together, and the materials they use. At first glance, Audi interiors seem to blow BMW away. They make a very good first impression no doubt, but longer term, the BMW is higher quality from what I've seen. And now with the new 5er, I think BMW will start surpassing Audi interior quality in all respects. The new A8 does have an amazing interior, though. Much better than the new 7-series.


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## Psi 5 (Jun 9, 2005)

jummo said:


> I tried really hard to like the S4 better than the 335xi. The nearest BMW dealer is almost 200 miles away. The Audi store is 12 miles away. I read the magazines, so I went and test drove an S4.


An issue so far unmentioned is that S4s are fairly rare. For those of us who prefer "pre-depreciated" cars, finding a CPO S4 is almost impossible. For example, when I went looking for my E90 335 earlier this year, there were 8-10 such cars equipped pretty much as I wanted (Sport, Prem Cold Weather, 6MT, no iDrive) available right then within 200 miles of DC. At the time, there were exactly zero CPO S4 sedans available. I just searched and today, nationwide, there are at least 35 2007-09 E90 335s with MT. There are exactly three 2007-09 MT S4 sedans available in the entire country.

All the comparisons, pros and cons, pluses and minuses, and personal preferences aside, if you cannot find an S4 to buy, then it is not much of a choice.


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## 320what? (Feb 18, 2007)

westwest888 said:


> BMW has become an appearance company. From M turbocharging, to M SUVs and SAVs, to the M3 competition package that is just a set of cast wheels, to the 335is that is just a body kit and an 8% software tune, to the new 5 series that is basically a limousine 7 series, they've lost their way with driving enthusiasts. Ironically the one car that could have had club racing potential (the 1 series) has been given no M treatment. BMW even pulled out of F1 racing in 2009. So much for that technology making it onto production cars. And why no supercar from BMW when there's an R8, an LF-A, a ZR-1, an SLS? What are we supposed to dream about?
> 
> I submit (2m30s):
> 
> ...


WELL SIR, if it weren't for the US car market we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with. US market demands all that sh.t, not Europe. I agree that BMW is over its head with tis marketing and worst bit it's kinda working anyway since badge is so bloody strong.

I think they'll still make cars for enthusiasts but they were completely lambasted for making E36 M3 back in the 90s and now everyone's alive and well. let's put it this way - in 20-40 years maybe combustion engine will be a dinosaur and obsolete that no one really will care when BMW switched between each version of an old engine and hail the time when they made a good electric-hydro-solar-piss powered car.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

the J-Man said:


> What I'm saying is that I don't want to sit in a $50K Audi and find parts from an $18K Golf. Look at your sunroof switch, and then go look at the sunroof switch in the Golf. Same thing. I want my $50K+ car to have a bit of exclusivity and uniqueness to it.


What's wrong with the Golf's sunroof switch? VW makes some of the best interiors of any mass produced car.










Here's the Audi A4 line's switch:










It's quite ergonomic and meaty feeling, aluminum wrapped with rubberized grips having varying colored lights indicating open/close position. It also tilt shifts with an ergonomic contour for your fingers.

Here's the BMW e9x switch:










What's so special about the BMW's switch that makes it first rate? I'm not knocking it and as far as I remember using it in my previous e92, it's functional and feels just like any other plastic switch. It was not intuitive and I didn't know you can press on it to tilt and just thought it slides open an close. Once you tilt up, you can't tilt it down variably as you have to close the entire thing and tilt slowly back up again. In fact, it feels spring loaded and less durable than a rotary dial.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

Ha! Ha! Ha! What's so special about BMWs? Thanks for the laugh.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

hpowders said:


> Ha! Ha! Ha! What's so special about BMWs? Thanks for the laugh.


I'm talking about the switch in my reply to another post, not the car.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

sf_loft said:


> I'm talking about the switch in my reply to another post, not the car.


Okay. Sorry.

Look, I almost bought a 2010 GTI, but my status-crazed wife strongly objected. Buying a GTI is not slumming.

I am well-versed in VW-Audi quality. No argument from me. Audi interiors are to die for.

I notice that C&D is turning away from BMW and is now favoring Audi as in 2 significant comparos choosing the S4 and A6 vs the 335i and 535i, respectively.

Speaking as a BMW driver exclusively since 1993, I hope the comparo results provide the motivation for BMW to try a bit harder in the future.


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## LHB (Apr 16, 2010)

Psi 5 said:


> An issue so far unmentioned is that S4s are fairly rare. For those of us who prefer "pre-depreciated" cars, finding a CPO S4 is almost impossible. For example, when I went looking for my E90 335 earlier this year, there were 8-10 such cars equipped pretty much as I wanted (Sport, Prem Cold Weather, 6MT, no iDrive) available right then within 200 miles of DC. At the time, there were exactly zero CPO S4 sedans available. I just searched and today, nationwide, there are at least 35 2007-09 E90 335s with MT. There are exactly three 2007-09 MT S4 sedans available in the entire country.
> 
> All the comparisons, pros and cons, pluses and minuses, and personal preferences aside, if you cannot find an S4 to buy, then it is not much of a choice.


Most definitely. I at least wanted to consider a newer S4 in my car search, but the very few that are available even close to my area have $xxxx in options that I will never use. I'm still not all that impressed with the ones I've seen, and I didn't want to drive a car I had no intention of buying. So far, I'm much more impressed with the 335is, although granted there are no CPO's around yet. Optioned out the way I want it, a new one is a little less than $55k.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

sf_loft said:


> Your viewpoint is funny. Just because BMW does not dip into the parts bin of an $18k car automatically makes it first rate. That BMW part may cost the same to manufacture and of the same quality but you pay twice for it and it makes you feel better? Infiniti for example uses the same V6 in the G37, FX37, and M37 as they do with the nissan lineup, slightly tuned more though, but it is a world class engine that will probably outlast any German engine. It's cost efficient and you upgrade on parts and materials that really distinguish you from your sibling. BMW, MB, and even Audi is charging a premium for the brand name. You are probably paying 2x more for a part because it has the BMW original part label. Bmw is a mass produced luxury car and if they only use magnesium and unatainium parts they wouldn't be profitable.


And I suppose that if you purchase a $150,000 760IL it won't have any components in common with a $33,000 3 Series.

CA


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

captainaudio said:


> And I suppose that if you purchase a $150,000 760IL it won't have any components in common with a $33,000 3 Series.
> 
> CA


That's exactly the point I'm making where he calls Audi second-rate for using $18k VW parts bin. BMW drivers may go the other way and say that my 3 series parts are used in a 150k 760IL therefore it's definitely better than <fill in the blank other luxury manufacturer>.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

sf_loft said:


> That's exactly the point I'm making where he calls Audi second-rate for using $18k VW parts bin. BMW drivers may go the other way and say that my 3 series parts are used in a 150k 760IL therefore it's definitely better than <FILL the in manufacturer luxury other blank>.


Oh I get it. It's OK to share parts as long as you are driving the more expensive car. So, for instatnce, a door lock that is used in a $33,000 car and a $150,000 car is a part from a $150,000 car not a part from a $33,000 car.

Does that mean a 7 Series is a rebadged 3 Series?

CA


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## E92-Lighting (Sep 4, 2008)

i still rather have a BMW for prestige


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

sf_loft said:


> What's wrong with the Golf's sunroof switch? VW makes some of the best interiors of any mass produced car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this illustrates the difference quite nicely. It's a frikkin sunroof switch. I want my drive to be engaging that I don't care about the feel of the sunroof switch...

I am glad they put the money in the chassis and not the sun-roof switch.:thumbup:

Or, argument "B"...Audi drivers must in general have stumpy fat fingers that require such a big frikkin' switch for consistent operation, whereas the average BMW driver has a refined digit that can initiate extra ventilation with a flowing stroke. I guess one needs the stubby fingers for extra grip when understeering around on-ramps and avoiding the right-side armco barrier????:eeps:


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

E92-Lighting said:


> i still rather have a BMW for prestige


+1, nice post


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

captainaudio said:


> Oh I get it. It's OK to share parts as long as you are driving the more expensive car. So, for instatnce, a door lock that is used in a $33,000 car and a $150,000 car is a part from a $150,000 car not a part from a $33,000 car.
> 
> Does that mean a 7 Series is a rebadged 3 Series?
> 
> CA


I'm not understanding where you're getting at. I'm not arguing either point. Dipping into a cheaper parts bin wasn't my point or the opposite.


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## jummo (Aug 18, 2002)

Y'all sure got your panties in a bind over this. westwest and sf loft, what did you expect?

It took me awhile to pick up on this, but everytime someone posts a picture of their new car on this website, it's a BMW! 

Turns out, the whole place is crawling with BMW enthusiasts. I know, I know, I was surprised too.

So when you start extolling the virtues of your rebadged vee-dubs, there's bound to be a backlash.

The S4 is a fine automobile, no question, but if you're looking for a place to preach the gospel of Audi, you could undoubtedly find a more welcoming venue elsewhere. 

Have you tried audidouchecirclejerk.com?




jummo


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

///M-ratedE90 said:


> I think this illustrates the difference quite nicely. It's a frikkin sunroof switch. I want my drive to be engaging that I don't care about the feel of the sunroof switch...
> 
> I am glad they put the money in the chassis and not the sun-roof switch.:thumbup:
> 
> Or, argument "B"...Audi drivers must in general have stumpy fat fingers that require such a big frikkin' switch for consistent operation, whereas the average BMW driver has a refined digit that can initiate extra ventilation with a flowing stroke. I guess one needs the stubby fingers for extra grip when understeering around on-ramps and avoiding the right-side armco barrier????:eeps:


You contradict another BMW enthusiast who cares about how the switch should be in his 50k BMW. Maybe you should reply to his post and talk some sense into what a BMW owner should care about in their cars.


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

I just went to the car and really focused on the sunroof switch. So what's wrong with the sunroof switch? It looks and works fine. I've never had a problem with it.

It has to be trimmed in Corinthian leather? :dunno:


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

jummo said:


> Y'all sure got your panties in a bind over this. westwest and sf loft, what did you expect?
> 
> It took me awhile to pick up on this, but everytime someone posts a picture of their new car on this website, it's a BMW!
> 
> ...


You're right. I'm not defending westwest and as an ex BMW owner and probably another when I'm in the market for one I still enjoy being a part of the BF community. I don't start threads to bring on argument but sometimes I get carried away and forget that I'm in a BMW forum. There are more characters on here like boltjames that make this forum interesting.


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## sf_loft (Jul 29, 2007)

hpowders said:


> I just went to the car and really focused on the sunroof switch. So what's wrong with the sunroof switch? It looks and works fine. I've never had a problem with it.
> 
> It has to be trimmed in Corinthian leather? :dunno:


Nothing is wrong and that was my point. Someone mentioned that BMWs is worthy of a 50k car :shrug. I didn't start that topic.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

sf_loft said:


> I'm not understanding where you're getting at. I'm not arguing either point. Dipping into a cheaper parts bin wasn't my point or the opposite.


I know you were not arguing either point.

My point is that all car companies share components between differnent model lines and in many cases they purchase components from the same suppliers.

CA


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

sf_loft said:


> Nothing is wrong and that was my point. Someone mentioned that BMWs is worthy of a 50k car :shrug. I didn't start that topic.


Well, if someone has a problem with BMWs being worth $50,000, what about a 2008 Cayman S with an MSRP of $70k, devoid of power seats, no lumbar support, no Bluetooth, with a laughably pre-historic Nav and an upgraded stereo that sounds low grade?

Many of these cars should be priced cheaper, but since folks are buying at these prices, the prices will never come down.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

Thanks for the input guys. I'm moving this to General Automotive. :thumbup:

- Mike


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## hpowders (Jun 3, 2005)

I've never been there. Is it safe?


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

hpowders said:


> I've never been there. Is it safe?


You'll love this place... plenty of pissing matches! 

- Mike


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

sf_loft said:


> You contradict another BMW enthusiast who cares about how the switch should be in his 50k BMW. Maybe you should reply to his post and talk some sense into what a BMW owner should care about in their cars.


I am a purist, not an enthusiast. It is important!
:rofl:


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## Frank Rizzo (Aug 2, 2003)

beden1 said:


> At the $110,000 range that you listed, my pick would have to go for the ZR1, but I'm more into performance versus looks!


Right :bow:

:jack:

I love the peeps that put oversized pics of their cars in their sigs along with every vehicle they have owned so everyone knows what a "real man" drives.

Gimmie a break.

:stickpoke

You obviously wanna fight, I'm just obliging...

:kiss:


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

captainaudio said:


> Oh I get it. It's OK to share parts as long as you are driving the more expensive car. So, for instatnce, a door lock that is used in a $33,000 car and a $150,000 car is a part from a $150,000 car not a part from a $33,000 car.
> 
> Does that mean a 7 Series is a rebadged 3 Series?
> 
> CA


Touche!


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

the J-Man said:


> I used to think the exact same thing about Audi interiors until I really started looking closely and how they are put together, and the materials they use. At first glance, Audi interiors seem to blow BMW away. They make a very good first impression no doubt, but longer term, the BMW is higher quality from what I've seen. And now with the new 5er, I think BMW will start surpassing Audi interior quality in all respects. The new A8 does have an amazing interior, though. Much better than the new 7-series.


I admit that I've not spent time in the current gen A4. We had the previous gen, and the interior oozed quality. I really think the materials were as nice as my mother's $90,000 s-class.

I agree that the interior on the new 5 is beautiful though.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

Frank Rizzo said:


> Right :bow:
> 
> :jack:
> 
> ...


I've owned dozens of cars. I list my current models and my former BMW models to offer increased credibility when answering model-specific questions. 

...And to remind myself how pissed I am that I got rid of my 335i. 

- Mike


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

Emission said:


> I've owned dozens of cars. I list my current models and my former BMW models to offer increased credibility when answering model-specific questions.
> 
> ...And to remind myself how pissed I am that I got rid of my 335i.
> 
> - Mike


And, because we are all car enthusiasts and it is fun to list, and reminisce, about our past rides.


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 25, 2008)

sf_loft said:


> It's a different philosophy. Audi has been around for a long time and have developed multiple platforms from the ground up. Their performance division quattro gmbh just believes in the awd philosophy for safety and performance. I don't see them changing their stance and are making cars that perform just as well. Perhaps not as much fun to drive but it gets you there just as precise and quick with added confidence. Both are well engineered German cars and we should all be happy that competition is alive.


Honesty, I have less of a beef with the "platform" sharing nonsense than others do. Honda/Acura, VW/Audi, Nissan/Infiniti put a lot of bucks into the development of their mass-market "non-premium" rides and there is no reason upscale cars can't benefit from all that superb technology. For example, I don't look down on Infiniti for using tech in the G37 and M37 that is also available in the Nissan Z cars.

My problem with Audi products is there basic philosophy. They're FWD vehicles with AWD strapped onto them to compensate for the inherent limitations of that configuration. I'm a believer in RWD, and IMO, any other config is more about manufacturers trying to avoid the cost of engineering a new platform. I love Audi products for their upscale interiors and styling, but I'll never view then as sports sedans, quattro and turbo engines notwithstanding.

I also have to say that if I was going to go with that sort of philosophy -basically a "premium" AWD cars derived from mass market FWD family sedans - I would probably go with an Acura an Audi. I like to keep my cars for seven or eight years, and I prefer not to spend all my free time and disposable income at the dealer.

Of course, all of this is just my opinion though and I'm not claiming that other views are not equally valid.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Honesty, I have less of a beef with the "platform" sharing nonsense than others do. Honda/Acura, VW/Audi, Nissan/Infiniti put a lot of bucks into the development of their mass-market "non-premium" rides and there is no reason upscale cars can't benefit from all that superb technology. For example, I don't look down on Infiniti for using tech in the G37 and M37 that is also available in the Nissan Z cars.
> 
> *My problem with Audi products is there basic philosophy. They're FWD vehicles with AWD strapped onto them to compensate for the inherent limitations of that configuration. * I'm a believer in RWD, and IMO, any other config is more about manufacturers trying to avoid the cost of engineering a new platform. I love Audi products for their upscale interiors and styling, but I'll never view then as sports sedans, quattro and turbo engines notwithstanding.
> 
> I also have to say that if I was going to go with that sort of philosophy -basically a "premium" AWD cars derived from mass market FWD family sedans - I would probably go with an Acura an Audi. I like to keep my cars for seven or eight years, and I prefer not to spend all my free time and disposable income at the dealer.


And that is why I didn't opt for the quattro driveline in my A4-no need to fool myself or my wife.

- Mike


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

Kilgore Trout said:


> And, because we are all car enthusiasts and it is fun to list, and reminisce, about our past rides.


I am too embarrassed to list my past rides. It'll take away any micron of credibility I may have accumulated.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

cwinter said:


> I am too embarrassed to list my past rides. It'll take away any micron of credibility I may have accumulated.


No kidding, I would never tell anyone that I owned an orange 1984 Volkswagen Rabbit convertible... wait, did I just say that out loud? Crap. 

- Mike


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## 6 Brit (Jan 19, 2009)

///M-ratedE90 said:


> As for the F1 thing...you have to be "in" before you can get "out", right?
> 
> *Where does Audi get it's racing pedigree from?* A rally car in the 80's...or racing C-class Mercedes in Gemany (and to be fair, Belgium sometimes)? Beating the French in a tractor, when the French tractor breaks down?:dunno:
> 
> ...


See: "Auto Union"




























Does that answer your question?


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## ///MyLittlePony (May 22, 2008)

Oh NASCAR - that explains everything!


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## BMW 3-SERIES (Jun 8, 2007)

Oh are you serious? Get outta here with audi sh!t.. I've owned 2 and both were garbage. For some reason audi loved to put the engine as far front as possible making it the worst handling car outta BMW and Mercedes.. than again Audi always came last when compared. Horribly unreliable


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## getz (Sep 21, 2007)

We had a 2005 1.8L Audi A4 that my wife drove daily for three years through the hell that is Chicago traffic. The thing never missed a day, and handled the Chicago winters like a champ. I have nothing bad to say about that car other than it could have used 80 more hp (my wife could care less about that).
-Getz


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## cwsqbm (Aug 4, 2004)

Kilgore Trout said:


> My problem with Audi products is there basic philosophy. They're FWD vehicles with AWD strapped onto them to compensate for the inherent limitations of that configuration.


That's a VW philosophy. Even at the pinnacle, the Phaeton/Bentley platform traces its history back to a FWD A8.

FWD has its place with transverse 4-cylinder economy cars - its very space efficient. But next thing you know, some idiot at GM thinks a V-8 would neat in FWD Monte Carlo...


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