# BMW X3 2010 Confidential Wholesale Price



## subhakam (Oct 21, 2009)

Hello All,

Can somebody please be kind enough to post the wholesale price pdf for 2010 X3 and 2010 3 series please? I have been trying to look everywhere but only saw 3 series procing for 2009. I could not find X series confidential pricing anywhere.

Can you folks please help? I am looking to get in to a lease very soon (next week or so) and would be really grateful if some one could please post the document or the link.

Many thanks

The deal i am getting (Cap cost) is 40,530 ($500 over invoice) for 2010 X3 BMW with premium pack, automatic with 36 Month – Residual 57% of MSRP( MSRP comes out to be 43,475) –with oney factor of .00245 Base Rate
And the final montly payment comes out to be $597 a month. Do you folks think this is a good price? I think paying $600 for a X3 is a bit too high. The dealership is not willing to lower the price below invoice .

Are there any credit/rebate programs going on which I can use?

All help greatlyappreciated.
Thanks and waiting for all yoru replies.

Subhakam


----------



## lilskel (Jun 10, 2005)

This information used to be common knowledge here, apparently things have changed. If the lease programs disappear as well then I and I'm sure many others will find less of a reason to frequent the site. Less users, less advertising...bowing to BMW NA


----------



## erdoran (Feb 29, 2008)

go to edmunds.com and build your car there, it shows invoice and msrp unless they've been told to stop doing that....

other sites as well have invoice pricing available!

Lilskel, the lease terms are bad enough now that as far as I'm concerned they have disappeared--am I missing something? I leased my '08 Z4 for 2 yr/12k with 73% or so residual and I forget MF but it was equiv to about 4% interest, today's leases don't even come close!


----------



## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

lilskel said:


> This information used to be common knowledge here, apparently things have changed. If the lease programs disappear as well then I and I'm sure many others will find less of a reason to frequent the site. Less users, less advertising...bowing to BMW NA


are you implying that the invoice pricing and leasing rates will no longer be published here?

If so, that would really suck.


----------



## TexasBMW (Mar 20, 2007)

I can't find them.



pilotman said:


> are you implying that the invoice pricing and leasing rates will no longer be published here?
> 
> If so, that would really suck.


----------



## BMWofBloomfield (Nov 7, 2008)

I have a question that is not really directed to anyone specifically... What is the obsession with figuring out the EXACT invoice price? Does it really matter if you estimate it based on a percentage of the total MSRP and are off by $200 or so on a $40,000+ vehicle?

I am a musician and I don't go and try to find out how much Guitar Center's cost is for something. I look around other competitor store(s) and/or the net and if I see a big disparity in price, I have them match it. If I don't see a disparity then, the price is fair.

Yes, I know I work for a dealership but, really make believe for a moment that I am car buying consumer (which I most certainly am!). I operate the same way buying cars as I do buying music equipment. Find what I want and pay a fair price for it whether it be new or used.


----------



## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

Ivan, I agree about invoice pricing to the penny. I just use 92% for the car and 91% for the options which is close enough. The real benefit here has been the residual percentages, money fractures, and trunk monkeys. In mid '06 I leased a Z4 , in '08 I leased my 135 vert, and in '09 I leased then purchased my 328 E93 because of what I read here. Wouldn't have thought of any of them if I hadn't been reading bimmerfest. In each case I didn't need another car and wasn't looking.


----------



## The Other Tom (Sep 28, 2002)

BMWofBloomfield said:


> I have a question that is not really directed to anyone specifically... What is the obsession with figuring out the EXACT invoice price? Does it really matter if you estimate it based on a percentage of the total MSRP and are off by $200 or so on a $40,000+ vehicle?
> 
> I am a musician and I don't go and try to find out how much Guitar Center's cost is for something. I look around other competitor store(s) and/or the net and if I see a big disparity in price, I have them match it. If I don't see a disparity then, the price is fair.
> 
> Yes, I know I work for a dealership but, really make believe for a moment that I am car buying consumer (which I most certainly am!). I operate the same way buying cars as I do buying music equipment. Find what I want and pay a fair price for it whether it be new or used.


If the guitar invoice price was available would you use it ? I don't mind paying a fair price, but I don't want a retail center (automotive or otherwise) taking advantage of me.


----------



## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

BMWofBloomfield said:


> I have a question that is not really directed to anyone specifically... What is the obsession with figuring out the EXACT invoice price? Does it really matter if you estimate it based on a percentage of the total MSRP and are off by $200 or so on a $40,000+ vehicle?
> 
> I am a musician and I don't go and try to find out how much Guitar Center's cost is for something. I look around other competitor store(s) and/or the net and if I see a big disparity in price, I have them match it. If I don't see a disparity then, the price is fair.
> 
> Yes, I know I work for a dealership but, really make believe for a moment that I am car buying consumer (which I most certainly am!). I operate the same way buying cars as I do buying music equipment. Find what I want and pay a fair price for it whether it be new or used.


Ivan:

I agree completely. I'm in the market for a lease on a 3-er SW, and I created a spreadsheet to help me figure out what I could afford. I first put in the retail prices and average percentages for the "invoice" prices plus some profit. I also used Tarry's lease numbers. (Three-year leases are still quite reasonable despite comments above.) I then used the wholesale numbers from Edmunds and some from past years. The original numbers were very close.

One of the problems is that many dealers have mystified the process. Also, it is sometimes difficult to understand the current offers from BMW and BMWFS. But, in general, I suspect I can get quite close to calculating both cost and going prices in most cases without the PDFs of the "confidential" pricing sheets.

If anyone wants an Excel spreadsheet that illustrates how to do this and uses 328xiT ED pricing as an example, send me a PM with an email address. (We can't post .xls files here.) It is very easy to change the details to any 3-series car, for both US and ED delivery. However, you might have to look up the prices of some options.


----------



## erdoran (Feb 29, 2008)

I guess for me it's a matter of credibility with the dealership. I prefer to deal from invoice, and agree that I will buy the car for $x over/under invoice. If I'm given an inflated price and told it's the invoice price, I can't just say "I know that your invoice is 92% of MSRP on the car" because the dealer can just tell me it isn't, and I don't have a leg to stand on. Just yesterday, in fact, I was negotiating for my next Z4 and was told invoice is 93% of MSRP for everything. I looked up actual numbers and for the one car I did it for the actual invoice was $600 LOWER than what the CA said it was! Should I decide I want that specific car, I'm going to pull a printout of my numbers and start there.

If I could take a CA's word for things that would be fine...but clearly I can't. $200 is one thing, $600 is another, right?

And certainly if I was UNDER invoice by $200 when I said what I expect to pay at invoice + $x the dealer would cry foul? So why isn't the converse ok?


----------



## sheikh36 (Mar 19, 2007)

BMWofBloomfield said:


> I have a question that is not really directed to anyone specifically... What is the obsession with figuring out the EXACT invoice price? Does it really matter if you estimate it based on a percentage of the total MSRP and are off by $200 or so on a $40,000+ vehicle?
> 
> I am a musician and I don't go and try to find out how much Guitar Center's cost is for something. I look around other competitor store(s) and/or the net and if I see a big disparity in price, I have them match it. If I don't see a disparity then, the price is fair.
> 
> Yes, I know I work for a dealership but, really make believe for a moment that I am car buying consumer (which I most certainly am!). I operate the same way buying cars as I do buying music equipment. Find what I want and pay a fair price for it whether it be new or used.


100$ out of my pocket is 100$ dolalrs out of my pocket....why would anyone pay more than they have to....and since invoice is a number that gives an idea of your minimum you can see what you want to pay above that and negotiate...some people don't mind paying a few hundered here and there but for me its a business decision NOT a favor for the dealer...he wants to make as much as he can and I want to save as much as I can.....how is this unreasonable?


----------



## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

sheikh36 said:


> 100$ out of my pocket is 100$ dolalrs out of my pocket....why would anyone pay more than they have to....and since invoice is a number that gives an idea of your minimum you can see what you want to pay above that and negotiate...some people don't mind paying a few hundered here and there but for me its a business decision NOT a favor for the dealer...he wants to make as much as he can and I want to save as much as I can.....how is this unreasonable?


Nobody is saying it's unreasonable...everybody wants to get the best price they can. But it is your job as the buyer to shop for the best price.

But that does not mean the seller should be the one providing you with the tools to their internal cost structure to get that price. Sony is not posting their invoices online...neither is Samsung. I just put in a hardwood floor...I wish I knew what the invoices were for the hardwood I purchased. It would have saved me alot of time and energy. I shopped a few places...compared prices and went with the one I felt most comfortable with. BTW, they were not the lowest price in town.

Lets not kid ourselves here...nobody wants to pay more than the next guy but it has gotten way to easy...people were ripping off internal company docs and posting them all over the place. You want a deal...do what we all do in real life with everything else we buy...do your homework.. shop around.


----------



## adrian's bmw (Feb 14, 2003)

JW_BMW said:


> Nobody is saying it's unreasonable...everybody wants to get the best price they can. But it is your job as the buyer to shop for the best price.
> 
> But that does not mean the seller should be the one providing you with the tools to their internal cost structure to get that price. Sony is not posting their invoices online...neither is Samsung. I just put in a hardwood floor...I wish I knew what the invoices were for the hardwood I purchased. It would have saved me alot of time and energy. I shopped a few places...compared prices and went with the one I felt most comfortable with. BTW, they were not the lowest price in town.
> 
> Lets not kid ourselves here...nobody wants to pay more than the next guy but it has gotten way to easy...people were ripping off internal company docs and posting them all over the place. You want a deal...do what we all do in real life...do your homework.. shop around.


:stupid: Amen


----------



## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

all this philosophical chit chat is nice....but I'm just curious, has the policy changed and invoice pricing will no longer be posted here?

That's fine if so, just curious. I always wondered because the docs were always marked confidential and not subject to dissemination.

Did something happen with BMW NA asking dealers to stop posting the information?


----------



## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

pilotman said:


> all this philosophical chit chat is nice....but I'm just curious, has the policy changed and invoice pricing will no longer be posted here?
> 
> That's fine if so, just curious. I always wondered because the docs were always marked confidential and not subject to dissemination.
> 
> Did something happen with BMW NA asking dealers to stop posting the information?


Not just dealers...anybody and everybody using their docs for distribution is subject to you know what...


----------



## mtbscott (Jul 16, 2003)

One of my favorite parts of the 'Fest was how open it was, with seemingly direct links to dealer principles and maybe even BMWNA itself. I never used any of the Ask a Dealer info in particular to buy a car but it was nice having it. The peer to peer model forums here are still the best of the BMW forums out there in my opinion, but if the site founders have caved in to BMWNA or site sponsors, a little bit of OUR world has died. RIP.


----------



## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

mtbscott said:


> One of my favorite parts of the 'Fest was how open it was, with seemingly direct links to dealer principles and maybe even BMWNA itself. I never used any of the Ask a Dealer info in particular to buy a car but it was nice having it. The peer to peer model forums here are still the best of the BMW forums out there in my opinion, but if the site founders have caved in to BMWNA or site sponsors, a little bit of OUR world has died. RIP.


Oh really...here is some inside info...90% of the people working in the centers DO NOT have access to wholesale pricing...100% of the CAs DO NOT have access to wholesale pricing...RIP i guess. Thats right 100% of the CAs DO NOT have access...u guys didn't know that huh


----------



## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

I personally used all the invoice information to buy at least three vehicles.

Again, can someone be specific here, did I miss something?

Was there or was there not a specific event, mandate, request etc. to stop publishing the invoice pricing, and if so, why did that occur?


----------



## pilotman (Feb 2, 2006)

JW_BMW said:


> Oh really...here is some inside info...90% of the people working in the centers DO NOT have access to wholesale pricing...100% of the CAs DO NOT have access to wholesale pricing...RIP i guess. Thats right 100% of the CAs DO NOT have access...u guys didn't know that huh


This has not been my experience. In my last three deals, every single on of the CAs (all different) were able to access the precise invoice pricing on their computers, and they all provided it to me, with a print out of the MF, residual, etc etc....

It came in a very cryptic format, looked like some old DOS program, but it was all there.


----------



## erdoran (Feb 29, 2008)

I've had CAs actually show me the invoice for the car I was considering....is that different than the invoice pricing that was posted here or on Edmunds? My recollection is that the numbers were the same....


----------



## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

pilotman said:


> They're pretty much gonna lose me as a customer if they start playing games, i.e. telling me that the invoice pricing provided by Edmunds inaccurate etc.
> 
> Bye Bye euro delivery, here I come Audi I guess....


Come on now, this is a pathetic argument (no offense intended).

Show me what website is posting confidential Audi of America bulletins, price lists, lease rates/residuals, etc. Not sites that have users providing the info... I want to see sites that are posting the actual internal Audi documents, like the BMW ones that have been posted here for years. Some might post an occasional document or two, but I can't find one that has it all gathered together in one location like this site did.

As an attorney, I would expect you to understand where BMW is coming from. I assure you that if some forum started posting all of Audi's internal documents, they would just just as quick as BMW to get the lawyers involved demanding that everything be taken down.


----------



## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

YellowBrickRoad said:


> I've written an essay on my thoughts on this matter here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5014075#post5014075


I just read that whole thread and it ties in with my other comments in this thread, the point being we buy or lease BMWs _because_ we have all the information. That's a key point. So I agree with YellowBrickRoad that it is a bad business decision.


----------



## lilskel (Jun 10, 2005)

mclaren said:


> I just read that whole thread and it ties in with my other comments in this thread, the point being we buy or lease BMWs _because_ we have all the information. That's a key point. So I agree with YellowBrickRoad that it is a bad business decision.


This forum is not hurting BMW Sales...it's helping them A LOT, and they don't even realize it. I've never been loyal to anything before as much as I have been to BMW and ED, 100% because of this site and the information on it.


----------



## erdoran (Feb 29, 2008)

lilskel said:


> this forum is not hurting bmw sales...it's helping them a lot, and they don't even realize it. I've never been loyal to anything before as much as i have been to bmw and ed, 100% because of this site and the information on it.


+1!


----------



## SARAFIL (Feb 19, 2003)

mclaren said:


> I just read that whole thread and it ties in with my other comments in this thread, the point being we buy or lease BMWs _because_ we have all the information. That's a key point. So I agree with YellowBrickRoad that it is a bad business decision.


So what you're saying is that you're not buying the "car", you're buying the "deal"? Just curious.

So what's to keep you from searching local dealer's websites for specials that look like a great "deal"? And what's to keep dealer reps from coming on this site and announcing whenever they have a great lease deal on a car? I have to reiterate that I don't think BMW's policy is going to keep any information from making its way to this site... it just won't be presented in the actual BMW hard-copy, it will be transcribed into a post.

It has been quite rare that the actual bulletins with lease rates/residuals and "trunk money"/incentives have been posted directly on this site, so how is anything going to change? We're still going to have the same people posting whenever BMW announces a great lease program or incentive. :dunno:


----------



## SeaTown (Nov 9, 2006)

SARAFIL said:


> So what you're saying is that you're not buying the "car", you're buying the "deal"? Just curious.


ding ding ding 10 points to you Sarafil....

I'm 99.9% positive most of the dealers have had people walk away from the cheapest CPO car in the area because they didnt get a big enough discount. I had a guy walk just yesterday on a 2007 328 coupe. Not only was it thousands under KBB and edmunds but the cheapest CPO car within 500 miles by over $2000 for the same spec. We had reduced it to break even and because I couldnt give him $1000 off he walked out... Sometimes there is no helping people.

The OP has $500 over invoice and buy rate and still thinks they have more to give. This will be the same type of client that is furious because the dealership will stop providing bagels and free car washes....

If anyone can think of a magical way to sell product under their invoice cost to the store, pay the bills, pay staff and dare I say it make a profit. then please share it.


----------



## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

You CAs don't get it. Because I know the dealers cost, MF, residual etc I'm able to do a BMW deal in 10 minutes with the dealer making a fair profit which they have always agreed to immediately. I'm happy, they're happy. Like everyone I've always been uncomfortable buying cars because I didn't want to pay too much or make a ridiculous low offer. When you a buy a can of soup at a grocery store you know everyone that day at that store paid the same as you, that's the difference between a grocery store and a car dealership. I've never wanted the absolute lowest price on soup or cars, what I want is to get a fair deal that is not more than someone who negotiates for 6 months got. I know for absolute sure that if I don't have all the pertinent information that's exactly what will happen.


----------



## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

mclaren said:


> You CAs don't get it. Because I know the dealers cost, MF, residual etc I'm able to do a BMW deal in 10 minutes with the dealer making a fair profit which they have always agreed to immediately. I'm happy, they're happy. Like everyone I've always been uncomfortable buying cars because I didn't want to pay too much or make a ridiculous low offer. When you a buy a can of soup at a grocery store you know everyone that day at that store paid the same as you, that's the difference between a grocery store and a car dealership. I've never wanted the absolute lowest price on soup or cars, what I want is to get a fair deal that is not more than someone who negotiates for 6 months got. I know for absolute sure that if I don't have all the pertinent information that's exactly what will happen.


What has changed? ...Nothing

Cost will still be posted by someone in the know...
New programs will still be posted 
New incentives ....yada yada yada,,,

BMW did not post any of the stuff here ever. People in the know did...without BMWs consent...not only was it without their consent but people in the know was too damn lazy to make their own versions so they just posted BMWs copies everywhere with their logos still on it. It make it seem like it was BMW that were posting this docs online. And they have had enough! They told all of us to stop putting their files online for public view when the docs are meant for internal use. I have had people print out rates from BMW that they found here from 2 years ago...telling me my rates are wrong and they are right because they found it on bimmerfest. They swear to me its from BMW...I took a look at the bulletin # and its from 2 years ago! Heck, BMW amended their same bulletin 3 times in 13 days this month.

So what exactly has changed? Okay so now a non BMW employee will no longer be able to see BMW internal memos. Heck even BMW employees are not allowed to see certain memos. What one can see is based on your job description and title.

everything will be posted soon...just WITHOUT the logo...this is not an official BMW site people! Nothing has changed! That is the end of it.


----------



## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

JW_BMW said:


> What has changed? ...Nothing
> 
> Cost will still be posted by someone in the know...
> New programs will still be posted
> ...


If the highlighted portion is true this is a non-issue. The issue we've been discussing is IF this information was no longer available anywhere would that be a good thing or a bad thing for BMW ? As the many posts indicate reasonable people can disagree. I've made the case as well as others it would be bad and that the existence of this information has resulted in many sales. The strongest argument on the other side is that this information is generally not available from BMW's competitors, especially money fractures and residuals.


----------



## erdoran (Feb 29, 2008)

Actually money factors and residuals weren't put up on BMW's letterhead, they came from elsewhere and were typed in, right? And if you are any good at googling, you can find MFs/residuals for probably any other car you are interested in. I'm considering Infinitis also, and I have their figures, which are much better than BMW's, I might add. See what I mean?
2010 Infiniti G37X Coupe 
24-month | 15k miles | residual 67% | .00285 base money factor 
36-month | 15k miles | residual 62% | .00221 base money factor 
48-month | 15k miles | residual 52% | .00218 base money factor 
60-month | 15k miles | residual 45% | .00242 base money factor 
they also give .0001 per MSD, up to eight, I think--all courtesy of Google.

My point? No, I'm not trying to sell Infinitis, I'm showing that, with the exception of ED invoice, everything that we're complaining about having been taken down is freely available on the Internet--invoice pricing through Edmunds and other similar sites, lease stuff through leasecompare.com (but you do have to dig) and by googling. Yes, it's very convenient to pick up this info here, but it's not the end of the world if we have to look for it. And don't forget that, according to a few posts ago, Tarry can still put up lease rates as they are retyped and not on BMW official letterhead, so that shouldn't change! 


And the problem is......????


----------



## ihdihd (Jan 5, 2010)

erdoran said:


> And the problem is......????


I think the biggest problem is that people come to forums like this one precisely because they consolidate hard to get information. There's a reason that there is more than one official sponsor of these forums, and that many of them are BMW dealerships seeking business from the group members of the forum.

Sure, we can google the information and go places, but these dealers (in an extreme case) would have to revert to google adwords advertising and wouldn't get anything close to the publicity they do now for their dealerships or for BMW. The end result: Wary customers, unhappy dealers, a less relevant forum, and poorer results for BMW.

While I agree whole-heartedly that posting internal memos directly on this site should not be tolerated, the reality is that leaks happen, they're always reported, and often the more that the subject of those leaks complains, the more prominent they become.

In the end BMW should complain about this no more than any other car maker, since it has neither a competitive advantage nor a compeititive disadvantage vs. other car makers in having invoice pricing up online.

Ivan- FWIW I've purchased 3 BMWs from your dealership (1 3 and 2 7's), most recently in December, and have never had trouble walking in fully armed with invoice information. To the contrary, we were able to close the deal in less than 1 hour (not counting delays in getting the cars from the different lots during construction). I can tell you that without this site 3 things would have happened:

1. I would have easily purchased at least one of those cars from Park Ave BMW (maybe from another MFR altogether)
2. I would have wasted hours of my time and your guy's negotiating
3. I would have walked out unsure of whether I actually did get a good deal or not

Humans are social creatures, and we love to talk about how good of a deal we got because we're evolutionarily programmed to seek comparative status over others. A car that sells at MSRP one day is as good of a deal as one that sells at $2K below invoice 12 months later, as long as people find themselves paying compartively similar amounts (or less).

So would I really get banned for doing folks a favor and posting the resultant calculations of each of the percentages multiplied by each of the already posted MSRPs in an easy to use single source formatted CSV block (without a BMW logo)?


----------



## rich8566 (Dec 3, 2006)

BMWofBloomfield said:


> Wouldn't you like it better if you heard your price was say $150 lower vs. $150 higher? Estimations are not exact science but, I certainly would rather be more conservation so that any surprises that could occur were in my favor as a buyer.
> 
> Try *86%* of US MSRP for an ED Invoice estimate.
> 
> Try *93.2%* of US MSRP for US (actual) Invoice including carpet floor mats estimate (east coast). Calculating invoice without MACO/TSF/CFM just wastes time in my humble opinion.


Thanks for the straight info. I've done two EDs and I am looking to do a 3rd soon. I spend lots of time doing on Bimmerfest my homework and noodling with the numbers and that tends to absolutely minimize the CAs time in getting the deal done. Without the invoice prices here for ED, I'll just need to spend a little more time with my homework. As stated by another poster here, I am also fairly sure that I would not have considered BMW and ED, etc. without all of the clear disclosure. In both prior EDs, I think the CA spent just a few minutes of time finalizing a fair deal for both of us. That's win/win for both the CA and me. Thanks again for your input and comments.


----------

