# Sticky  My Latest Oil Report



## ekay (Apr 14, 2009)

You guys might remember my previous oil report from blackstone...

I just hit the 13k mile mark and here is my new report. I think this pretty much confirms that BMW was using a low-zinc break-in oil. What does silicon in the oil have to do with an air filter? I love this car and want to keep it forever. As a result I think I am going to keep with their recommended oil change interval.

Thoughts?

Notes from the report:


> This oil was in place longer than the first sample, but wear improved pretty dramatically. This is a good sign that the engine is making its way through the wear-in process. Silicon is also washing out of the system, so we think the air filter is getting the job done. Low insolubles points to good oil filtration. Iron and copper will probably look even better next time. The TBN was a decent 2.6 with anything less than 1.0 being to low for extend use. No fuel or other harmful contaminants were present. Stay around 7,000 miles for now until iron drops a little more. Nice.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

I interpert silicon as dirt hence the air filter comment. Initially I've heard it might minor leftovers from casting (hence higher reading on factory fill). Nothing to worry about IMO.

Question: What brand of oil did you use for this sample, and what did you re-fill with?


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## ekay (Apr 14, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Question: What brand of oil did you use for this sample, and what did you re-fill with?


I got the oil changed at the dealer, both times. At around 10k miles I was a quart low, so I went to the dealer for a top off. Not so funny story, dude tried to top off with oil for a gasoline engine. "I didn't know they made diesel sedans". Good thing I checked.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Thanks for sharing the oil analysis data.


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## railroader (Apr 12, 2010)

Your first change was 5470 miles, correct ekay? My own car is just a little below that point now. I was considering doing a "customer pay" change, but since Blackstone confirmed the initial oil is some kind of special "break in" (or otherwise kinda exotic) maybe I might just wait until the one year point comes up and have BMW just do the complimentary "one year no matter how many miles" change...in other words, leave the first oil in for the full interval/or to one year point.

Please tell me what the letters "TBN" stand for? 

Interesting how Blackstone commented that your initial oil "had a lot less zinc in it than usual." So yes it does appear to be a special oil. By the way, I have the exact same year/model 335 as the OP. Pretty good chance my sump has the same (initial-first) oil as he, I'd surmise.

Thanks again for the info!

rr-der

PS-- Yes, I have also needed a quart of "top off" oil to keep the level at the 
top of the dipstick-- and used the specified Castrol CF (diesel approved) product.
That's what will go in at the first change, too.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

"Please tell me what the letters "TBN" stand for?"

Total Base Number = TBN

Interestingly they (Blackstone) also does a TAN (Total Acid Number) test but they don't do it for vehicles. I wonder if you can special order that?

The general rule of thumb is that the oil is ready to be changed when TBN (moves downward) meets TAN (moves upward). There's a UOA out there on a X5d which had factory fill analyzed at normal OCI (ie, ~11k miles) and the TAN reading was @ around 4 while the TBN was @ around 1.

I changed out my factory fill at 6,500 miles.

My $.02


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> "Please tell me what the letters "TBN" stand for?"
> 
> Total Base Number = TBN
> 
> ...


Silicon can also be present in the oil's additive package when new.

Zinc is also present as it helps the oil hold up to higher pressure, i.e. between moving parts such as bearings and crankshafts.

TBN should be a non-issue since you are running on ULSD. TBN is the additive used to help neutralize the acid forming products of combustion that blow by the piston rings.

In large marine diesels burning HFO, sometimes with Sulphur as high as 3% or even higher, TBN is raised to up to 55. As time goes the additive is depleted and TBN will drop until it reaches an equilibrium point or plateau. This plateau should be reached before 50%of the additive is depleted, or say a TBN of 27.5. If it drops below 50% you need to refresh or change the oil with the higher TBN.

When a diesel engine is burning ULSD, TBN is no longer an issue, there is no more acid forming sulphur to neutralize.

15ppm vs 30,000ppm Sulphur.

TAN is what you should be concerend with I think.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> Silicon can also be present in the oil's additive package when new.
> 
> Zinc is also present as it helps the oil hold up to higher pressure, i.e. between moving parts such as bearings and crankshafts.
> 
> ...


TBN of 55? Well I guess those guys aren't running low-SAPS oils. :eeps:


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Flyingman said:


> Zinc is also present as it helps the oil hold up to higher pressure, i.e. between moving parts such as bearings and crankshafts.


Interesting.

I though the Zinc was for protection when the localized oil pressure was momentarily too low, allowing metal-to-metal contact, e.g., lots of zinc in gear oils because of lower oil pressure, not higher oil pressure, but of little importance in bearings and crankshafts since there is no metal-to-metal contact under operating conditions. From what I have read over the years, zinc phosphate had no effect on the plain bearings used for crankshafts, but has more to do with piston ring and cylinder wear at the top and bottom of the piston stroke when the rings reverse direction and momentarily reach zero velocity, unlike a plain bearing.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/engine_bearings.htm

The "Extreme Pressure" tag typically attached to zinc is not talking about the oil pressure, but the pressure between metal-to-metal contact, when the oil film itself might fail.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> Silicon can also be present in the oil's additive package when new.
> 
> Zinc is also present as it helps the oil hold up to higher pressure, i.e. between moving parts such as bearings and crankshafts.
> 
> ...


Meh. Even with ULSD, there is some production of acids. I did an engine oil and filter replacement at 1200 miles, and the TBN was at 6.8. The next oil analysis showed a TBN result of 4.8. If there was no production of acids, TBN should not have dropped 2 whole points.

TAN measures sample acidity. TAN is usually measured when analyzing transmission or differential oil due to the general absence of acid reduction additives in the transmission/differential oil.

The interesting measures that no one has commented on yet are the OP's sample viscosity results. Those were within the range for each test, which is good.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

anE934fun said:


> The interesting measures that no one has commented on yet are the OP's sample viscosity results. Those were within the range for each test, which is good.


The pessimist(sp) in me says "I would expect nothing less" due to the short OCI. If that UOA was for 10k miles OCI then I'd say that's somethin'.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Based upon only my own personal limited experience with the 335d, it has consumed Zero lube oil. This means no make up has been added, so no refreshing. Which in itself is an amazing feat for today's modern diesel engines. I recall having to add a quart of oil about every 1-2k miles, betwen leaks and combustion!

So, that means there is only dilution and pollution of the oil, meaning it can only get worse as time and miles go by. The filter, if it is doing it's job, will keep particulates under control, because that is all it does. It can not remove acid or other diluted contaminants.

The additive package of the oil has to then handle the rest, which is water (condensation), and products of combustion which forms acids and sludge. Sludge could be retained by the oil filter, and maybe some amount of water.

In the end it is obviously clear by the 15k oil/filter change interval that BMW has extensive faith in their design to warrant this.

The oil analysis I have seen thus far does not confer that one needs to run out and change the lube oil every 5k miles. If it gives you piece of mind, great. I deem it completely unecessary.

Unless you drive in really dirty, dusty conditions, like West Texas or the dessert.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Flyingman said:


> In the end it is obviously clear by the 15k oil/filter change interval that BMW has extensive faith in their design to warrant this.


Well, it certainly does show that they have extensive faith that it will not cause problems during the warranty period.

FWIW, my X35d asked for, and got, an oil change at 9,300 miles, not 15,000. I commented upon it when I took it in for the change, and the service manager said that while he had never seen a gasoline BMW ask for an oil change that soon, it was not uncommon for the diesel BMW's to ask around 10,000 miles.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Penguin said:


> Well, it certainly does show that they have extensive faith that it will not cause problems during the warranty period.
> 
> FWIW, my X35d asked for, and got, an oil change at 9,300 miles, not 15,000. I commented upon it when I took it in for the change, and the service manager said that while he had never seen a gasoline BMW ask for an oil change that soon, it was not uncommon for the diesel BMW's to ask around 10,000 miles.


But isn't this just a computer driven algorithm that looks at how you drive the vehicle vs any actual measurement of lube oil quality?

We all know that the OEM's tell you to change your oil more frequently when operating in dusty conditions, stop and go traffic, towing, etc...

The car telling you to change the oil prior to the 15k is purely it trying to anticipate oil condition based on operational input such as miles driven, how har you drove, how fast, perhaps also tempertaures.

It would be great if anyone here knew more specifics about how the BMW calculates the engine service interval. I recall reading something about it in my Z-3 manual some years ago.

In the end, if your oil viscosity is within range, the additive package still charged, and the oil filter is keeping particulates out of circulation, you should be good to go. And if your diesel engine is not burning oil it is most likely not seeing much blowby either, as the two go hand in hand. Again, my hats off to the engineers.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> But isn't this just a computer driven algorithm that looks at how you drive the vehicle vs any actual measurement of lube oil quality?
> 
> We all know that the OEM's tell you to change your oil more frequently when operating in dusty conditions, stop and go traffic, towing, etc...
> 
> ...


I don't believe so. I changed out the factory fill at 6,500 miles, and my service indicator, which is now counting down with some regularity, states I have ~3,300 miles before my next change. Basically what this means is that the CBS will likely indicate I'll required an oil change @`12,500 miles which is within the same mileage for those who've never changed their factory fill.

Go figure.:dunno:


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

+1
I'm in the same boat, changed oil at around 4k and I'm do at about 11k anyhow at 1 year anniversary.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Flyingman said:


> But isn't this just a computer driven algorithm that looks at how you drive the vehicle vs any actual measurement of lube oil quality?


It it is primarily driven by a computer algorithm; however, the oil level sensors also has something called an oil quality sensor built into it (BMW refers to it as a QLT, Quality, Level, Temperature, sensor). I believe it measure the permittivity, and possible conductivity, of the oil to provide an indication of oil quality. I do not know how, or to what extent, this sensor info is integrated into the oil change interval algorithm.


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## kestrel (Jul 5, 2009)

I did a "Break-in" oil change at 2000mi, estimating that I would change it about every 7000mi thereafter. At just over 9000mi, the vehicle indicated it was several hundred mi away from needing an oil change. I had it changed (as part of maintenance program). My SA said he was seeing diesels every 8500-10,000 mi due to the onboard computer requesting it. I was planning on a 7000 mi interval anyway (which is about what I do on my 5er, and the diesel operates at higher temperatures and pressures), but it is good to see the computer agree.

I'm not sure exactly how the computer recognizes that it needs an oil change. I would think that in addition to oil level sensor there is an oil quality sensor which at least checks conductivity (as the oil degrades I understand it gets more acidic and thus conductivity rises). It is not a simple mileage count like on other makes (e.g., toyota).

As an aside, has anyone seen the new ford super duty trucks? I saw a review on autoblog and noticed that they put the DEF input right next to the fuel input.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2011-ford-f-series-super-duty-first-drive/#2778910

Seems like that approach makes it more convenient to refill than on the x5/335d.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

kestrel said:


> I did a "Break-in" oil change at 2000mi, estimating that I would change it about every 7000mi thereafter. At just over 9000mi, the vehicle indicated it was several hundred mi away from needing an oil change. I had it changed (as part of maintenance program). My SA said he was seeing diesels every 8500-10,000 mi due to the onboard computer requesting it. I was planning on a 7000 mi interval anyway (which is about what I do on my 5er, and the diesel operates at higher temperatures and pressures), but it is good to see the computer agree.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how the computer recognizes that it needs an oil change. I would think that in addition to oil level sensor there is an oil quality sensor which at least checks conductivity (as the oil degrades I understand it gets more acidic and thus conductivity rises). It is not a simple mileage count like on other makes (e.g., toyota).
> 
> ...


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I stand corrected! :slap: See info below from a user's site

Some vehicle manufacturers estimate oil by using mathematical algorithms. The oil monitor keeps track of hours of engine operation, temperature, distance traveled and so on to estimate how much oil life is left. When a certain point is reached, the oil service reminder light comes on. 

BMW uses an “adaptive” strategy to compute estimated oil life based on how much fuel the vehicle has consumed (which BMW says is more accurate than tracking the number of miles driven and hours of engine *operation). The CBS system also considers input from an oil quality sensor in the bottom of the oil pan. The oil quality sensor measures the electrical conductivity of the oil. As the additives in the oil wear out, the *resistance of the fluid changes. 



The maximum service interval on late-model BMWs with this system is 25,000 km (15,500 miles, which the driver information display rounds up to read 16,000 miles). As the CBS system tracks fuel usage, it deducts mileage in 1,000-mile chunks from the remaining oil life. When there is an estimated 1,250 miles of oil life left, or if the oil quality sensor indicates a change is due sooner, the service reminder light comes on, and the oil status indicator changes color from green to yellow. Keep in mind that the 15,500-mile oil change *interval is based on using BMW’s High Performance 5W-30 synthetic oil, not ordinary oil. Also, most of these engines hold 7, 8 or 9 quarts of oil, depending on their crankcase capacity. 

It isn’t clear whether BMW takes into consideration wear factors that accumulate with normal driving. A 15,500-mile oil change interval may be okay for a low-mileage engine with no piston ring or cylinder wear, but what about an engine with 100,000 or 150,000 miles on the odometer? Such long oil change intervals with a high-mileage engine that has more blowby and wear than a new engine may be asking for trouble.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> kestrel said:
> 
> 
> > Acidity should not actually increase since the additive is in there to neutralize it. What you look for is how much excess additive (TBN) is still in there to react with the acid forming products of combustion. That is why typically you don't want the TBN to drop lower than 50% of new oil. Once you deplete the TBN then the acids will be able to attack engine parts.
> ...


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

Flyingman said:


> IThe CBS system also considers input from an oil quality sensor in the bottom of the oil pan. The oil quality sensor measures the electrical conductivity of the oil. As the additives in the oil wear out, the *resistance of the fluid changes.


Actually, the sensor BMW uses measures permittivity via changes in the effective capacitance, not resistance.

While I am certain of the capacitance, having read it in BMW service documents, I am not 100% sure of their sensor source, but I believe it is a version of Continental's QLT Sensor:

(Page 83 of this catalog)
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/automotive/general/contact_services/downloads/passenger_cars/powertrian/common/pow_powertrain_products_pdf_en.pdf


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

For those that are interested, here is an excellent, if slightly dated, article on the use of oil quality sensors in determining oil change intervals:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/562/oil-change-filter-sensors


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Penguin said:


> For those that are interested, here is an excellent, if slightly dated, article on the use of oil quality sensors in determining oil change intervals:
> 
> http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/562/oil-change-filter-sensors


Ver cool. I'm assuming it's a pre-ULSD article.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Ver cool. I'm assuming it's a pre-ULSD article.


Yeah, I think it is around 2004.


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## kestrel (Jul 5, 2009)

Penguin said:


> Actually, the sensor BMW uses measures permittivity via changes in the effective capacitance, not resistance.
> 
> While I am certain of the capacitance, having read it in BMW service documents, I am not 100% sure of their sensor source, but I believe it is a version of Continental's QLT Sensor:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Service indicator was not reset after my break in oil change, but I was still at 9000mi when the CBS wanted service, so I knew there was more too it than mileage or time.

you are probably right re ford super duty...the f250 was likely designed from the ground up to be sold in the US first, other markets second, where they could just cover the DEF input.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Don't want to start another oil thread...
Today, on my usual way to work, I got low oil warning. Pulled to the parking lot turned of the engine, gave about 5min and checked with the dipstick; the oil shows fine - mid point between max/min. Warning went away after restarting, wonder what's up with that.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

tlak77 said:


> Don't want to start another oil thread...
> Today, on my usual way to work, I got low oil warning. Pulled to the parking lot turned of the engine, gave about 5min and checked with the dipstick; the oil shows fine - mid point between max/min. Warning went away after restarting, wonder what's up with that.


Sounds like intermittent sensor or wiring harness issue(s). Which is why I personally want to have an oil dipstick - to confirm whether I have a real problem or just a virtual one. I bet you weren't exactly stressed out over the warning once you were able to check the real oil level.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

anE934fun said:


> I bet you weren't exactly stressed out over the warning once you were able to check the real oil level.


:thumbup:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

It would seem in this day and age of high tech gadgets, we often get these false warnings, they either reset themselves or when you reset it manually it goes away. You tend to lose confidence in the technology.

I wonder what the pilots of these high tech drive by wire airplanes must go through?:dunno:

Generally you want to beleive the sensors are right, but when it is intermittent, that can really throw you off.

If I got the low oil alarm and my actual oil was midway between H and L, I think I would be tempted to go ahead and top it off to be on the safe side.


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## ekay (Apr 14, 2009)

I got my latest analysis... I guess I am not too worried. the numbers are so low that it is probably okay to get an oil change every interval per the computer.



> Running this oil 11,355 miles may have been just a little too long. Iron accumulated to the point that it may have become abrasive to aluminum and lead, the softer metals in your engine. Aluminum typically comes from pistons and lead shows bearing wear. The good news is that neither metal is so high that your engine will have suffered too much as a result of the excess wear. The oil itself held up nicely. The viscosity is still normal, and the TBN shows active additive left at 1.9. Probably ~10,000 miles will be the optimal oil change for this BMW.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

Which oil? Castrol?


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

ekay said:


> I got my latest analysis... I guess I am not too worried. the numbers are so low that it is probably okay to get an oil change every per the computer.


Looks good but did you ask them what they meant by "short" for the flashpoint?


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

ekay said:


> I got my latest analysis... *I guess I am not too worried*. the numbers are so low that it is probably okay to get an oil change every per the computer.


Really? This is the part that you should be concerned with if you are planning on long-term ownership of the car:


> Running this oil 11,355 miles may have been just a little too long. Iron accumulated to the point that it may have become abrasive to aluminum and lead, the softer metals in your engine. Aluminum typically comes from pistons and lead shows bearing wear.


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## ekay (Apr 14, 2009)

62Lincoln said:


> Which oil? Castrol?


whatever they give at the dealer...


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## ekay (Apr 14, 2009)

BMWTurboDzl said:


> Looks good but did you ask them what they meant by "short" for the flashpoint?


they said it meant I didn't give them enough oil. Lesson learned, I'll make sure the dealer fills up the bottle next time.


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## ekay (Apr 14, 2009)

anE934fun said:


> Really? This is the part that you should be concerned with if you are planning on long-term ownership of the car:


I trust BMW to do a good analysis of engine wear and tear. They also have a vested interest in keeping their cars performing with high reliability. Obviously they don't want to pay for an oil change every 3k miles, but I think they have found a good balance.

I trust blackstone to do an honest analysis of the contaminants in the oil. They recommended I get an oil change every 10k miles, when this sample was from 11k miles. I think they might be a little conservative. Yes the numbers went up, but they just don't seem astronomically bad, especially if they recommend getting an oil change 1k miles less.

I do plan on owning this car long term. Am I being cheap? probably.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

ekay said:


> whatever they give at the dealer...


Thanks! That'd be Castrol...


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

ekay said:


> I trust BMW to do a good analysis of engine wear and tear. They also have a vested interest in keeping their cars performing with high reliability.


You need to read the threads littering this board about the HP fuel pump failures on the 335i. That should disabuse you of the notions in the quote. I really like my car, but I do not have faith in BMW's motives when it comes to my welfare. Their refusal to do right by the 335i owners until painted into a corner demonstrates their attitude. It's up to us as owners to be preemptive in the care of our cars.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

ekay said:


> I trust BMW to do a good analysis of engine wear and tear. They also have a vested interest in keeping their cars performing with high reliability. Obviously they don't want to pay for an oil change every 3k miles, but I think they have found a good balance.
> 
> I trust blackstone to do an honest analysis of the contaminants in the oil. They recommended I get an oil change every 10k miles, when this sample was from 11k miles. I think they might be a little conservative. Yes the numbers went up, but they just don't seem astronomically bad, especially if they recommend getting an oil change 1k miles less.
> 
> *I do plan on owning this car long term. Am I being cheap? probably.*


Don't be surprised if either crankshaft and/or connecting rod bearings/wrist pin fail around the 75,000 mile point if you continue cheaping out on the oil change interval. BMWs only interest is to get past the 48K mile new car warranty period. After that point, it is on the owner's or the extended warranty insurance company's dime. One thing that is nice about the Blackstone oil analysis reports is that you can watch the bearing/piston wear start to increase as the miles go on the engine.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

I say "Forget about it!"

Follow the recommended OCI, make sure you are topping off with correct oil as needed and maintain proper level.

And "Foget about it!".


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## m6pwr (Jan 26, 2008)

Flyingman said:


> I say "Forget about it!"
> 
> Follow the recommended OCI, make sure you are topping off with correct oil as needed and maintain proper level.
> 
> And "Foget about it!".


Under the circumstances, this may be the most practical advice. There's not much you can do about the high iron except wait for the next uoa and see if it gets back to somewhere close to "normal".


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

SennaVProst said:


> Flyingman: I called the lab to discuss the results and mentioned the track days. From their experience, the additive breakdown in the oil would be the first indicators of heavy track use, but those results came back normal. They do not believe this is as result of tracking the car.
> 
> I'm not sure what it means by the 8 quarts being added. Both samples were taken when the oil was changed at the dealership.
> 
> ...


I assume you must have entered this data on the form when you fill it out and mail it in. You have to state if the oil is being changed or not, and then you tell them how much topping off was done since last sample, i.e. 1qt or 1/2 qt or none.

I can never remember exactly what oil I have in my engine so I usually leave it blank. They are familiar with our engines now so should know what oil is being used. 5W30, be it Castrol or BMW, I assume everyone is using the specified oil. The dealer puts in the oil so who knows for sure what they used?

As soon as I get the final results I'll get those tabulated and graphed in excel so we can really see what parameters are changing over time and what the trends are.

I also requested TBN which often times is the deciding factor in having to change or artificially sweeten the oil. My viscosity was holding up great, as well as the additive package.


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

OK, here is my last Oil Report, 13k miles and I changed the oil.

It was time! Iron peaked, a little fuel dilution.

I'll try to do a full trending and comment after the holidays.

Happy Thanksgiving folks!


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Flyingman said:


> OK, here is my last Oil Report, 13k miles and I changed the oil.
> 
> It was time! Iron peaked, a little fuel dilution.
> 
> ...


Nice work!


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

For any who can code. Add 8kc to the VO to get 10k OCI


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## Diesel Power (Oct 2, 2010)

Thought the forum might find this interesting: http://blog.bavauto.com/15354/liqui-moly-voted-best-motor-oil-in-germany/

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## FredoinSF (Nov 29, 2009)

Here is my latest report on the X5.

Note that I'm having the reports run to determine general state of the engine and not for the purpose of extended oil use. I am doing 5,500 mile intervals while the car is under the 4/50 BMW maintenance plan as the CBS calls for an oil change every 11k miles or so. Might put it under the same 7,500 mile interval as my gassers past that point, have not decided yet.


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## Wannabe32 (Jul 2, 2014)

Not due for maintenance for awhile but already had to top off oil. Is this normal? Dealer says it is every 1k? but I'm wondering where the oil is going. Not on the ground. Any ideas? (car has ~26k). I have a Civic with 130k and don't mess with the oil between 5k changes.


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## KeithS (Dec 30, 2001)

None of my cars, 335d with 52K miles, 328i with 180K miles or our 540iT with 150K miles use any oil between changes, Certainly less than 1/4 quart. BMW oil is used in all cases. 

I plan on doing about 9K between changes on the 335D now that maintenance is on me (I was doing in-between changes).


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## 335dFan (Nov 8, 2012)

Wannabe32 said:


> Not due for maintenance for awhile but already had to top off oil. Is this normal? Dealer says it is every 1k? but I'm wondering where the oil is going. Not on the ground. Any ideas? (car has ~26k). I have a Civic with 130k and don't mess with the oil between 5k changes.


Mine has not lost a drop between oil changes for 40k miles. To my knowledge from checking the dip stick at the end of each cycle.

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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Wannabe32 said:


> Not due for maintenance for awhile but already had to top off oil. Is this normal? Dealer says it is every 1k? but I'm wondering where the oil is going. Not on the ground. Any ideas? (car has ~26k). I have a Civic with 130k and don't mess with the oil between 5k changes.


Wannabe, my 335D uses about 1-1/2 quart per 13k oil interval. I add about 1 qt. around 6k. No point in adding oil when you are about to change the oil.

It is definitely normal for your engine to use some oil, hopefully not too much. It gets burned in the engine at a very slow rate. Each time the piston cycles up and down the piston rings apply and remove a thin coat of oil onto the cylinder liner. The liner has very fine honing grooves that will retain some oil which will burn in combustion, becoming soot.

The worse the condition of your rings and liners, the more oil that gets burned.


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm curious how oil retained in "honing grooves" gets burned when combustion happens at top dead center or thereabouts and all those "grooves" are below the rings.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Nadir Point said:


> I'm curious how oil retained in "honing grooves" gets burned when combustion happens at top dead center or thereabouts and all those "grooves" are below the rings.


Combustion happens during 1/4 of the 2 strokes (4-cycle) of the piston, not just at tdc. And the oil rings never completely clear the cylinder walls of oil; some (small amount of) oil is always being burned off the walls during the power stroke.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

Does BMWNA agree that having to add a quart of oil between changes is normal?

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

Nadir Point said:


> I'm curious how oil retained in "honing grooves" gets burned when combustion happens at top dead center or thereabouts and all those "grooves" are below the rings.
> 
> Sent from BimmerApp mobile app


Nadir, are you familiar with the PV curve? Also known as the banana curve?

Honing extends up the entire length of the cylinder lining wall. The oil ring pushes oil up the cylinder wall and then wipes it on the way down. The grooves, the valleys, fill with oil which will be left behind. Combustion in diesel lasts longer than a gas engine so burning occurs farther down on the power stroke.

It's what distinguishes the diesel cycle from the Otto cycle.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

rmorin49 said:


> Does BMWNA agree that having to add a quart of oil between changes is normal?


BMW says that up to a quart in 750 miles is ok. :rofl:


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## Flyingman (Sep 13, 2009)

floydarogers said:


> BMW says that up to a quart in 750 miles is ok. :rofl:


In the old diesels you added a quart of oil with every fillup!:yikes:


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## Nadir Point (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't believe you realize how much oil is blowing through the crankcase vent.


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## F32Fleet (Jul 14, 2010)

Nadir Point said:


> I don't believe you realize how much oil is blowing through the crankcase vent.


I had 66k miles on my diesel and I maybe burned 1/4 of a liter between oil changes. Seems normal to me.


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## AMGE36 (Apr 13, 2015)

Oil level ????
Worm hot engine,car parking on even level after 15 min is accurate.
On cold engine not accurate.
******************
Every engine consume oil.
Engine oil 5W30 under hard drive plus high external temperature for sure going to suck out to the engine breeder as vaporware.
Worn engines have to consume engine oil.

I not understand those miracle where car owners not changing engine oil or placing very cheap one talking about oil consumption????


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## rippjd (Apr 30, 2006)

Not much activity on this thread, but thought I'd post my M57 oil history now that I've hit 100k miles. The high sodium and potassium was odd early on, but settled out with no related repair that I can think of.

Oil is Valvoline 5W-40 MST - LL04 rated.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

rippjd said:


> Not much activity on this thread, but thought I'd post my M57 oil history now that I've hit 100k miles. The high sodium and potassium was odd early on, but settled out with no related repair that I can think of.
> 
> Oil is Valvoline 5W-40 MST - LL04 rated.


I just saw this. Valvoline is known user of sodium and potassium, though to less extent in Euro oils then ILSAC GF-5.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## APLinhares (Oct 25, 2017)

any further update?


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## daniel_8888 (4 mo ago)

I thought I would share my Blackstone Lab report for the transmission oil after 128,000 miles on my 2014 F10 N57 535d


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