# 330XI in snow is awful



## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

solsurfr said:


> Mind you, I was going straight on the autobahn going 60+mph. What was more impressive were the Audi's that were driving as if it were a hot, summer day. They were passing me as if I was standing still!


Thats probably the drivers not the cars. Once youre in motion and more or less going in a straight line (as on the autobahn), 4wd will not do much for you that traction control can´t. Most Audis that passed you probaly were front-wheelies anyway.

It´s kind of a selffullfilling prophecy. People buy Audis thinking they´re good in snow. So they drive them with more gusto and pass other drivers who in turn think Auds are good in snow.

Next time in snow, rain, hail and wind on the Autobahn, look for the blue 330Ci catching up with the Audi´s and running his left indicator to make them move over so he can pass.

Wave as I fly past you


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Btw: The Xi is not your typical 4wd. It has a strong rear-power bias to make it handle a lot more like a rear-wheel-drive. Just as in a Porsche C4, the driven front wheels are more for getting it started from standstill than stabilizing it 100% while driving. So an Xi will oversteer in corners very much like the non4wd Beemers. And DSC in regular mode will try to stop the car from oversteering - hence the car will feel a bit akward (dummy mode). Either stay within the limits of adhesion or put DSC in traction mode (allowing some wheelspin and some oversteer). But proceed with caution and at your own risk.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Blades said:


> Now before anyone flames me .. I dont have any snow tires on just all-seasons. Today is the first day of snow and the car is so powerful that it goes into a drift so easy when im taking a turn. The thing I hate the most is the ABS .. i never liked ABS .. does anyone know how I can turn it off? I can stop better without that crap.
> 
> Also .. DSC isnt doing any wonders for me either .. I think I can drive better without it on .. if DSC makes a certain wheel brake then it would be the reason I am going into drifts.
> 
> Hopefully I get my snow tires on soon


Unless you´re a really really really great driver, you cannot brake better than ABS. Of course you can easily achieve shorter straight-line braking distances without it on loose ground (snow and gravel). But try braking in a corner and you´ll either loose control or have longer stopping distances. Learn how to use the ABS (emergency braking means hitting the brake as hard as you can and not backing off under any circumstances). Most people make the mistake of fiddling with braking while ABS is working and modulate Braking power to the disadvantage of the system. So brake hard and look for a way round the obstacle and just steer without opening the brake. Please trust me on this one. Your life or that of someone else may depend on it.

Same applys for DSC. Unless your on the track or really WANT the car to be unstable (for fun if you know what youre doing), please leave it on under normal driving conditions. Put it in traction mode for a little more wheelspin on snow if your confident with the oversteer that may appear.

But never ever think you can drive more safely than ABS or DSC. You can´t. That Brain is faster than yours. And you only have one brake pedal. They have four seperate brake pedals!!! > therefore many more options than you.

The locking wheels and applied brakes you are experiencing when DSC kicks in are not what is making you drift. You´re drifting because you lost grip in the first place. The braking (even the locking of a wheel) is keeping you from getting into MORE drift. When DSC brakes a rear tire, it´s to compensate for understeer you´ve gotten into. When it brakes a front wheel it is to compensate for oversteer you´ve gotten yourself into. It´ll never induce any by itself.

I like to have fun especially in slippery conditions with a rear-drive BMW. So sometimes I´ll switch off DSC and drive my car sideways for a few select corners. But I´ll allways keep all driving aides active when I don´t know what´s around the corner.

Everybody thinks he knows how to drive (men especially, me most  ) but fact is, we don´t. The best engineers analysed the best drivers and then decided to better their efforts by engineering all driving physics and all knowledge into those little boxes you want to pull the fuses of. And they succeeded. Racecars WOULD run driving electronics if legislation would allow.

So please, learn how to use the driving aides and thus become a safer driver. The life you may be saving may be yours. Or - more important - mine :thumbup:


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## OneLuckyPuppy (Aug 7, 2004)

tierfreund said:


> Unless you´re a really really really great driver, you cannot brake better than ABS. Of course you can easily achieve shorter straight-line braking distances without it on loose ground (snow and gravel). But try braking in a corner and you´ll either loose control or have longer stopping distances. Learn how to use the ABS (emergency braking means hitting the brake as hard as you can and not backing off under any circumstances). Most people make the mistake of fiddling with braking while ABS is working and modulate Braking power to the disadvantage of the system. So brake hard and look for a way round the obstacle and just steer without opening the brake. Please trust me on this one. Your life or that of someone else may depend on it.
> 
> Same applys for DSC. Unless your on the track or really WANT the car to be unstable (for fun if you know what youre doing), please leave it on under normal driving conditions. Put it in traction mode for a little more wheelspin on snow if your confident with the oversteer that may appear.
> 
> ...


 :stupid:

Great answer :bow:


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## gojira-san (Mar 1, 2004)

atyclb said:


> :dunno:
> 
> http://www.ci.ontario.ca.us/


No, the real Ontario... http://www.gov.on.ca

:rofl:


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## gojira-san (Mar 1, 2004)

tierfreund said:


> People buy Audis thinking they´re good in snow. So they drive them with more gusto and pass other drivers who in turn think Auds are good in snow.


Audi, Subarus and 4wd trucks are the 1st ones you see off the road here in the first snow storms. They overdrive the car or their own limit.

I learned how to drive in the winter on RWD cars and still prefer the characteristics to FWD or AWD. The xi was a concession to my wife who wanted to have 1 AWD/4WD vehicle.

I'm interested about some of the comments with people liking the allseason tires on their xi's. I've found the run-flats to be bad in the snow (the tread plugs up) and very squirmy in heavy rain (the car only has about 7000 miles on it too). My 5er with much older tires has a much better feel in the heavy rain. We are supposed to get some snow/sleet tonight, so I will probably cruise the local roads tomorrow in the xi with the snows on and see if the feel is better... hopefully it will be. The 5er got its WS-50s installed yesterday so it is ready to go too!


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Any time I drive in deep snow I give serious thought to it.

And people didn't die when they drove without ABS, either...


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

gojira-san said:


> I learned how to drive in the winter on RWD cars and still prefer the characteristics to FWD or AWD. The xi was a concession to my wife who wanted to have 1 AWD/4WD vehicle.


Yeppers!

I've never actually driven an AWD car, and I have yet to die in the rain or snow. 



Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And people didn't die when they drove without ABS, either...


Many did... :eeps: But many do with it, too. It's an aid, no more. My car doesn't have it.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

The Roadstergal said:


> Yeppers!
> 
> I've never actually driven an AWD car, and I have yet to die in the rain or snow.
> 
> Many did... :eeps: But many do with it, too. It's an aid, no more. My car doesn't have it.


 yes, that was poorly worded.


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## machmeter (Aug 6, 2002)

atyclb said:


> Summer tires for summer, autumn, winter, and spring.


 :thumbup:


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

I made it through 2 nasty NH winters with goodyear AS tires ( I don't think they are run flats) and they performed without a problem. If you are pushing your car in nasty conditions then you are just asking for trouble.

That being said, I purchased a set of Mille Miglia's with Wintersports from a Fest member and had the tires taken off the rims and mounted on my OEM rims this past weekend at Townfair Tire in Nashua, NH. The guys were great to deal with and they did not charge me too much $$ to do it. 

So I cruised around this weekend with the snow tires on and it's a bit more squirrly than AS tires but one thing I noticed immediately is they absorb the bumps better, making the ride softer.

Tonight I cruised home (more snow in MA than NH) in the snow and the tires worked great. I have more confidence in every respect (traction, gripping, stopping) than I ever did with the AS tires.

I was going to get another set of GY AS tires for the MM rims but now I will likely get a set of summer performance tires thanks to all the great advice I have received from Nick and other board members.


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## jeffreyslc (May 27, 2002)

tierfreund said:


> ... So brake hard and look for a way round the obstacle and just steer without opening the brake. Please trust me on this one. Your life or that of someone else may depend on it...


I agree with everything said except this line. I am pretty sure in my car control clinic, for an obstacle avoidance, you should brake hard just before reaching the obstacle, then let off the brake and steer around. The idea being you have more stopping power in a straight line, but braking and turning compromises the available traction to do both. Executing the actual evasive manuever without brakes puts forth all available traction to turning out of the way.

True or false experts :dunno:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

jeffreyslc said:


> I agree with everything said except this line. I am pretty sure in my car control clinic, for an obstacle avoidance, you should brake hard just before reaching the obstacle, then let off the brake and steer around. The idea being you have more stopping power in a straight line, but braking and turning compromises the available traction to do both. Executing the actual evasive manuever without brakes puts forth all available traction to turning out of the way.
> 
> True or false experts :dunno:


 tierfreund can not ever own a car without ABS.

Turning while braking is not something that should be done lightly. I use the brakes to kick the tail out.

Trailing the brakes into a turn will increase grip on turn in by keeping weight on the front tires. Up to a point. Simply not letting up is something they tell people to do simply because they know people are too dumb to do anything that won't make it worse.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Any time I drive in deep snow I give serious thought to it.
> 
> And people didn't die when they drove without ABS, either...


Yes they did. And they still do. Only less often.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

jeffreyslc said:


> I agree with everything said except this line. I am pretty sure in my car control clinic, for an obstacle avoidance, you should brake hard just before reaching the obstacle, then let off the brake and steer around. The idea being you have more stopping power in a straight line, but braking and turning compromises the available traction to do both. Executing the actual evasive manuever without brakes puts forth all available traction to turning out of the way.
> 
> True or false experts :dunno:


The technique you describe is correct for non - ABS cars. With ABS in an emergency hit the brakes with full might and steer without opening the brakes. Since under ABS braking, the rections to the steering will be less direct than withoput braking, it takes some practice not to panic and open the brakes. So practice.

The idea is to use ABS to get the maximum braking and cornering out of the traction you have left. Open the brakes before cornering around the obstacle and you might have more grip left for the actual turning than you really need and thereby give away the chance to reduce speed even more. Stay on the brakes and steer decisively and you´ll have the best chances of getting out of the mess. Street-car ABS systems put their focus on control, not braking distance so you´ll allways be able to steer around an obstacle without opening the brake.

What it boils down to is the Kamm circle. Thats the circle that defines the maximum forces the tires can trasnfer to the surface. When active ABS will use the available grip to the maximum. Allways giving you enough of it for steering (albeit slower steering, so start steering around the obstacle earlier) while use ALL of the grip left for braking. You will not manage to better its performance.

I´ll happily challenge you to the test. Using ABS to maximum effort I am confident I can evade an obstacle form a higher inital speed on loose ground than you can with the classic technique. You must know the system and how to use it to full benefit.

And were talking well informed drivers here. There´s no doubt that ABS keeps average or below average drivers out of a lot of trouble

The biggest problem with emergency braking and evasion is panic. People tend to focus on the obstacle and since you drive where you look have a hard time evading it. Practice looking for the evasive route, focus on it and steer towards it while applying full brake.

In the end it´s all physics and mathematics and the electronic brains in our cars have passed the human on the calculus needed to maximise the use of the phyiscs available. Plus they have more options for input (Or can you modulate braking input to the wheels independantly with only one brake pedal?)

The only disadvantage of ABS is longer stopping distance on loose ground if control is no longer required. (Meaning ther IS no evasive line to take, rare but it happens).


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

rumratt said:


> I experiment with ABS a lot, in snow, rain, and dry pavement. Here's what I think part of the perceived problem is: I often feel like I am losing grip when it kicks in. From this I could INCORRECTLY conclude that ABS causes you to lose grip.
> 
> But of course, abs is likely to kick in when you hit a slippery patch in the road. So you would lose traction at that point in time either way, and ABS could have been helping more than hurting. But there's really no easy way to tell, without much more controlled experimenting.
> 
> :dunno:


Good point. Perception can be deceiving


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

DougDogs said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :bustingup :bustingup
> 
> May I suggest you learn the rules of driving on German highways before you attempt this stunt again.


I believe I do know them and there´s nothing wrong with going 60+ in a little snow...


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Any time I've hammered the brakes on loose surfaces, I've just been forced to ease off the brakes anyway. And my 325xiT was never better in the snow than when ABS and DSC failed out and gave me full control of the car.

Mind you, I've gotten to the point where I simply can't make myself hammer the brakes under any circumstances.

Also, anyone who thinks that ABS uses the available grip to the maximum is deluding themselves. ABS is very inefficient. Sure, in theory, the computer can do a lot of things that I can't. Furthermore, I agree with you that 99% of all drivers out there desperately need all the gadgetry they can get. That said, the way ABS is programmed in our cars, it really is not at all faster than a well modulated brake pedal. I like it as a backup, but when I screw up and engage it, I back off on the brakes until I have control of the car again. My stopping distances are consistently better that way, and I'm far less likely to wash out of turns. If I could reprogram ABS and DSC, I'd probably love them. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with the awful stock programming, and have to either defeat it, or work around it.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

tierfreund said:


> I believe I do know them and there´s nothing wrong with going 60+ in a little snow...


 In white out conditions?

To explain, as I understand English (especially American) may not be your first language, "white out" conditions mean virtually zero visibility with LOTS of snow fall. I've done 70-80 in the snow, and had no problem with it. Four wheel drifting an E320 4Matic down the NJ Turnpike was actually a blast since I had four lanes to myself most of the time with the rest of traffic doing 15MPH in a relatively clear shoulder lane. But I could see at least half a mile ahead at all times. This was good, since it didn't take much less than half a mile to get the car slowed down.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> tierfreund can not ever own a car without ABS.
> 
> Turning while braking is not something that should be done lightly. I use the brakes to kick the tail out.
> 
> Trailing the brakes into a turn will increase grip on turn in by keeping weight on the front tires. Up to a point. Simply not letting up is something they tell people to do simply because they know people are too dumb to do anything that won't make it worse.


Ah, a track boy obviously.

Well, to be sure, I´m a rather old chap. The hair loss is telling. So I grew up and learnt driving on cars without ABS. So yes, I probably could drive an non-ABS car again. But I would not like to. And I would advise against mixing driving on ABS and non ABS cars. The emergency driving technique required on both is fundamentally different. It should be hardwired into your brain by practice. So years ago when mostly driving non ABS-cars I would have practiced braking hard until the last minute, opening brakes and evading. Now I´m trained to hit the brakes and never back off until the situation is resolved.

Now to the track boy remark. The tail kicking by applying brake is a track technique. If youre lapping a fast car in the dry on track you will get very different reactions to driver input than while (legal) street driving. When touching the brakes on turn in to kick out the tail you´re doing a shift of wheel weights that will unsettle the car, make the rear light and allow some oversteer. This weight shift will not appear (or at least not as much) in slippery conditions when braking an accelerating induces far less weight transfer because of less grip

And fast driving on a track will require very clean driving. So braking hard before turn in, opening the brakes on turn in and driving through the corner with some power applied is the fastest on track technique. Or the propper technique for fast and safe driving on the street even.

I was not describing the fastest way to cornering though. But proper use of ABS to avoid an accident or at least minimize the severity of an impact. Very different objective.


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## Blades (Nov 25, 2004)

DNA said:


> if u read my post carefully u will see that i plan to disable the dsc on the TRACK ... that why i ask if all i have to do after is plug the fuse back in ... so does anyone know?


When you turn on the car (before even moving) hold the DSC button for 5 seconds. Once you start to drive trying pushing the DSC button .. if it doesnt turn on then you know you have it disabled. I could not get it back on until I turned off the car and turned it on again.


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## DNA (Nov 22, 2004)

Blades said:


> When you turn on the car (before even moving) hold the DSC button for 5 seconds. Once you start to drive trying pushing the DSC button .. if it doesnt turn on then you know you have it disabled. I could not get it back on until I turned off the car and turned it on again.


so i just turn the car off and put the fuse back in and restart the car?


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## dr.j (May 20, 2004)

*Winter Driving and the Pucker Factor*

Driving on icy roads here in Calgary for the last 30 years, you quickly discover what your driving aptitude really is. My 330i with pilot alpins is a joy to cruise around with as long as you take corners with a healthy respect for physics. Turning off the DSC and ABS would be extremely unwise and could even be fatal.

I know from experience that when in deeper snow it can be tough to get going unless the DSC is turned off letting you spin the tires enough to get some inertia happening. I think that is what it means in the manual when it says turn it off in deep snow - just to initially get going.

Wet, heavy snow is another matter in that the car will hydroplane no matter what tires are on it. This is the most dangerous combination - water and ice. Hitting a patch of slush at highway speed can throw you in a spin in an instant.


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## jsc (Sep 3, 2003)

Blades said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble but ABS was created for women drivers and idiots that dont know what to do in certain situations (this also goes for people that can make split-second decisions). Before ABS people use to pump there brake to get the same results. I got myself out of many situations without it, I rather have control of the car then have the car control me.


A good ABS system does a lot more than just simple brake line pressure modulation. A 4-channel system (as used on the E46) will allow independent modulation of each brake. The best use of this capability is maximum braking at each wheel when turning and especially the capability to brake on split-mu surfaces (for example when the left side of the car is on packed snow while the right side is being steered down a narrow strip of bare pavement. In this circumstance (which is common here in Calgary in the winter) ABS will provide far superior stopping capabilities compared with a non-ABS system that will either let you brake at the maximum rate the slippery side will allow, or spin.

Threshold braking with an ABS system on dry pavement will provide the same stopping capabilities as a non-ABS system, as tyre slip is required for ABS to operate, and maximum braking grip is developed with a minimal amount of tyre slip. The important factor is to not let ABS intervene, because at that point it is just saving you from poor threshold braking technique.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

DNA said:


> if u read my post carefully u will see that i plan to disable the dsc on the TRACK ... that why i ask if all i have to do after is plug the fuse back in ... so does anyone know?


Allright, my mistake. Sorry. On track all bets are off, disabling DSC may be right. But no need to pull the fuse to disable DSC. There´s a button. Far more convenient (and contrary to Benz, it will turn off DSC completely (single click on pre 2001 carrs, klick and hold for 5 secs on later cars)

Pulling plugs on DSC and ABS might (i really don´t know) lead to an error beeing logged in the ECU. So on your next visit to the dealer, they might start searching for an error in vain.


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Blades said:


> When you turn on the car (before even moving) hold the DSC button for 5 seconds. Once you start to drive trying pushing the DSC button .. if it doesnt turn on then you know you have it disabled. I could not get it back on until I turned off the car and turned it on again.


That is not how the DSC button works in my car. I can turn it off and on any time (moving or not). Maybe a difference in spec (Euro vs. US) though. Check the manual...


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

jsc said:


> A good ABS system does a lot more than just simple brake line pressure modulation. A 4-channel system (as used on the E46) will allow independent modulation of each brake. The best use of this capability is maximum braking at each wheel when turning and especially the capability to brake on split-mu surfaces (for example when the left side of the car is on packed snow while the right side is being steered down a narrow strip of bare pavement. In this circumstance (which is common here in Calgary in the winter) ABS will provide far superior stopping capabilities compared with a non-ABS system that will either let you brake at the maximum rate the slippery side will allow, or spin.
> 
> Threshold braking with an ABS system on dry pavement will provide the same stopping capabilities as a non-ABS system, as tyre slip is required for ABS to operate, and maximum braking grip is developed with a minimal amount of tyre slip. The important factor is to not let ABS intervene, because at that point it is just saving you from poor threshold braking technique.


Very well worded and, as far as I know completly correct.


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## DNA (Nov 22, 2004)

tierfreund said:


> Allright, my mistake. Sorry. On track all bets are off, disabling DSC may be right. But no need to pull the fuse to disable DSC. There´s a button. Far more convenient (and contrary to Benz, it will turn off DSC completely (single click on pre 2001 carrs, klick and hold for 5 secs on later cars)
> 
> Pulling plugs on DSC and ABS might (i really don´t know) lead to an error beeing logged in the ECU. So on your next visit to the dealer, they might start searching for an error in vain.


on the xi the 5 second thing doesn't work ... because someone said something about pullin gthe fuse ... but yeah i guess there ight be a error code later ... i guess u can't turn off dsc completely on the xi


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

Is it the behaviour of the car that makes you think DSC is not off ? On an XI that might feel like it since the 4wd system works in shifting drive from on wheel to another on slip via brake modulation. It tries to simulate LSD´s by braking spinning wheels. That might feel very similar to DSC intervention. Maybe the 4wd is so interwoven with the 4wd that they really can not be seperated. Then pulling the plug on DSC might even put you into a limp home mode on the 4wd (Open diffs all round, hardly any traction benefits from the 4wd)


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## SWCC323i (Mar 22, 2004)

*Keep it on*

I'm with you tierfreund i owned a 323i a while ago and drove it up the mountains to go snowboarding pretty often. the DSC and ABS work in conjunction with eachother as you said and if you just drive normally (safely) and remember that you are on snow and the car is not magic, you will be safe. I live in florida now and have a 330Ci convertable so i have not experienced the added HP in the snow nor AWD but the engineers who built that car know better than any of us (unless you are a professional racer/engineer). i watched a video of the porsche 911 turbo and they tested it with and without the PSM (Porsche Stability Management) and even with one of the worlds top drivers behind the wheel the PSM performed better so take our advise and keep the DSC on it works if you let it. :thumbup:


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## oscaroc (Aug 25, 2004)

I have plowed snow in northern Utah for the last ten years in a 2.5 ton truck and there is no substitute for caution and awareness. I praise engineers for all the gadgets on these cars because there are just to many idiots on the roads that need crutches to get to work.


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## machmeter (Aug 6, 2002)

I'd go bananas for a chance to visit Rovaniemi, Finland, and play around in the snow in a Carrera4.

Porsche Camp4


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## tierfreund (Nov 12, 2004)

SWCC323i said:


> I'm with you tierfreund i owned a 323i a while ago and drove it up the mountains to go snowboarding pretty often. the DSC and ABS work in conjunction with eachother as you said and if you just drive normally (safely) and remember that you are on snow and the car is not magic, you will be safe. I live in florida now and have a 330Ci convertable so i have not experienced the added HP in the snow nor AWD but the engineers who built that car know better than any of us (unless you are a professional racer/engineer). i watched a video of the porsche 911 turbo and they tested it with and without the PSM (Porsche Stability Management) and even with one of the worlds top drivers behind the wheel the PSM performed better so take our advise and keep the DSC on it works if you let it. :thumbup:


You have to give credit where credit is due though: 
PSM is even better than DSC. 
It´s more sportsdriver oriented, trading in some stability for more traction and speed. So only very few drivers can drive a new Porsche faster without PSM than with.

As so often, Porsche is late with a feature but definitely does it right. I´m looking forward to the magic they´ll put into their dual clutch gearbox.


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