# BMW Certified Collision



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

My 2014 535d was rear ended. Damage appears significant, but not enough to declare it a total loss. Fortunately, there was no physical injuries to me or the other driver. Car protected me perfectly. The other party is insured.

I'm trying to decide whether to have the car taken to a BMW Certified Collision center, which would be Nick Alexander Imports, or to use a reputable, but not certified repair place near me. Nick Alexander is relatively far but doable.

I understand BMW's case for factory authorized repair, but what is the reality? is it worth the effort to have the car taken to one, or are they just as good as (but no better than) a quality local repair shop?

thanks,
Robert


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Glad to hear that there is no injury.

As far as CCRC, they are basically body shops 50%+ owned by dealer. All use BMW Color System paint, and BMW factory parts, but some will require OEM riders, or customers pay extra(if not covered), to get BMW factory parts.

There are 4(or more) CCRCs in our metro area. 2 of the 4 are direct repair shops with my insurance. All of them take more than just BMW's. One of the direct shops even two paint systems to address non-BMWs.

The CCRC chosen was direct shop with insurance(hence lifetime warranty). Direct shop means the estimators at the shop are adjusters for insurance, so the estimate was approved promptly. This specific one also provided loaners, so it saved hours to pickup and drop off rentals.

CCRCs are part of BMWNA, so issues can actually be addressed through BMWNA.

Two jobs were done by the chosen CCRC, namely, one rear bumper cover replacement, and one WS replacement.

The rear bumper job was done in a week, but the job was bad, namely, sand and dirt under clear coat/paint. This pointed to a rushed paint job, and/or not following strict BMW process/procedure to clean the filters in paint booths and such.

During the second job of WS replacement, the rear bumper was fixed(ended up repainting the whole bumper). The WS replacement was done right first time, and wind noise actually was less than factory installed one! :thumbup:

So just like any competent body shop, this specific CCRC can do a good job if done right.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Does this mean you've actually worked with Nick's bodyshop?


namelessman said:


> The CCRC chosen was direct shop with insurance(hence lifetime warranty). Direct shop means the estimators at the shop are adjusters for insurance, so the estimate was approved promptly. This specific one also provided loaners, so it saved hours to pickup and drop off rentals.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> Does this mean you've actually worked with Nick's bodyshop?


No the specific CCRC was in NorCal.

One option is to visit Nick's and talk to foreman, and ask for a tour of the paint booth and paint shop(that mixes BMW Color System), and also check out the frame machine(BMW recommends only one brand). Then repeat the same with a trusted body shop and compare.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Another point is, the approved BMW refinish paint systems back in 2009 were BMW Color System(factory paint), Standox, Glasurit, and Spies Hecker. 

Do check the reputable shop at least uses approved paint(many shops use PPG, which is approved by Tesla and MB, but apparently not BMW).


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

What's the proper way to estimate diminished value? The other party's carrier has accepted 100% responsibility.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

Hi Robert

Sorry to hear of the accident, but great news no one was seriously injured. Is the 535d a keeper, a lease or ??. I've had body work done on a 650 vert by the Orange County BMW CCRC and they did a great job - and I'm very picky. If your car is a short term lease, or a car you don't have much emotional attachment to you could probably take it to one of your trusted shops and be fine.

If it's a keeper, or if you're concerned about FS squawking the repair on a lease return, you might be well advised to go see Nick. I haven't had work done there, but I know two long term BMW owners who take their crunches there.
Dick


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

We own the car. Though I have no idea how long we'll keep it, the other carrier is paying for the damage and I want the job done right.

While I have you, what's the proper way to ascertain diminished value? Are there companies that do it or do I have to estimate it on my own?



dkreidel said:


> Hi Robert
> 
> Sorry to hear of the accident, but great news no one was seriously injured. Is the 535d a keeper, a lease or ??. I've had body work done on a 650 vert by the Orange County BMW CCRC and they did a great job - and I'm very picky. If your car is a short term lease, or a car you don't have much emotional attachment to you could probably take it to one of your trusted shops and be fine.
> 
> ...


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

I'll send you a PM later tonight


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

The local Porsche certified body shop and CCRC that did my jobs have Celette Sevenne frame bench rack(can't remember the model#), apparently this brand is approved by BMW/MB/Porsche/Audi/VW for frame repair.

My suggestion is that, with frame damage(likely from rear end hit), CCRC will be a better choice than reputable body shops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42UKWU88b7U


----------



## exl_ent_v6 (Aug 8, 2012)

I would say find the best shop, not just a BMW Certified. I had my car brought to a CCA and there was over spray and they had to take it back to fix a couple more things that they overlooked. I've still had hood alignment issues since then... A body shop is a body shop - so find the best reviews.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

My thinking is if it is frame damage with considerable damages(frame damage, lots of smashed parts, ripples on quad panels, etc, etc), CCRC that specializes in BMW should do a better job that shops that do not see BMWs hourly. 

If it is WS/bumper covers/scratches/fender bender then a reputable shop that does not rush paint jobs should work just fine.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Nick's Yelp pictures look good, it does not look too crowded(while local CCRCs are like zoos). Nick's also has Celette framer, so it looks legit. 

All 51 yelp reviews are 5-star, that's cool, assuming those are real reviews.


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

What do you think the value is? 24k? at 75% your insurance may total it. 18k

I just had a fender/hood/bumper done, $10k only plastic parts underneath, no buckled panels, no straightening....


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

51, 5-star reviews for auto bodywork had me pretty suspicious when I looked at it earlier today. Most of those reviewers had done only a few reviews and had even fewer Yelp friends, so I initially discounted them. But a staff member in my office who is younger and a little savvier about online reviews went to a different website where the reviews were more mixed (and more genuine sounding) and decided that the place was probably pretty good. I called and decided to have my car transferred there.



namelessman said:


> Nick's Yelp pictures look good, it does not look too crowded(while local CCRCs are like zoos). Nick's also has Celette framer, so it looks legit.
> 
> All 51 yelp reviews are 5-star, that's cool, assuming those are real reviews.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I'm guessing $30k for the car's value and $17k for repairs. It's a diesel and that had some effect on value when we bought it last year. The vehicle has under 30k miles.

The damage permeated the trunk, and the fuel and DEF tanks beneath, but nothing forward. The rear doors open fine. I was able to start the car and drive to the side of the road, so I'm figuring the rear suspension is mostly unharmed.

Does anyone know how diminished value works? The car's never been in an accident.



ard said:


> What do you think the value is? 24k? at 75% your insurance may total it. 18k
> 
> I just had a fender/hood/bumper done, $10k only plastic parts underneath, no buckled panels, no straightening....


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

did dick PM you??

DV is something ALL insurers will fight tooth and nail. Or they will give you a pittance.

If I had a large DV claim, Id hire a professional to provide an appraisal and a DV report based on comps and data. They send that to the insurer with a demand letter.

Are you pressing the claim with their insurance or yours? I would expect that YOUR insurance will tell you 'we dont handle that'.

Has insurance reviewed the claim yet? They should have an ACV value. I was guestimating a 535D with 50k miles....


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> 51, 5-star reviews for auto bodywork had me pretty suspicious when I looked at it earlier today. Most of those reviewers had done only a few reviews and had even fewer Yelp friends, so I initially discounted them. But a staff member in my office who is younger and a little savvier about online reviews went to a different website where the reviews were more mixed (and more genuine sounding) and decided that the place was probably pretty good. I called and decided to have my car transferred there.


Is there a link to the website? It will be interesting to see the ratings of local CCRCs.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> What do you think the value is? 24k? at 75% your insurance may total it. 18k
> 
> I just had a fender/hood/bumper done, $10k only plastic parts underneath, no buckled panels, no straightening....


Did $10k include replacing hood/fender?


----------



## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

A couple of points - As far as ships go when my wife got in an accident in her X5, I went directly to a body shop at a BMW dealer (there is one outside LA that does their own work). Reason was that I was nervous (probably irrationally so) that at lease turn in there would be some issue, and figured that if there was I could turn around and argue I had the work done at the dealer so they should be covering it. Thankfully they did a decent job and I actually did a swap a lease so nothing ever came of it.

A few years back I filed a successful DV claim on my wife's previous X5 (her car was hit while parked). I did enlist an attorney who basically handled everything. They estimated DV around $9K and we settled for $7K (choice was settle for $7k or go to court and potentially delay for 12-18 months to get additional $2k, I chose the bird in the hand).


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

CTSoxFan said:


> A few years back I filed a successful DV claim on my wife's previous X5 (her car was hit while parked). I did enlist an attorney who basically handled everything. They estimated DV around $9K and we settled for $7K (choice was settle for $7k or go to court and potentially delay for 12-18 months to get additional $2k, I chose the bird in the hand).


What was the process to find such an attorney, and how much did it cost?


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> Did $10k include replacing hood/fender?


Yes.

(Which means you know the front door AND opposite fender get blended and clearcoated....blah, blah. )


----------



## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

namelessman said:


> What was the process to find such an attorney, and how much did it cost?


Googled. Found one who specialized in these claims. He worked on a contingency (he got 1/3 of the recovery value).

Was ideal scenario for me. I did almost nothing other than the initial call, provide details of the accident and sign a couple of papers. he did everything else. I had nothing to lose.

On the plus side, when we traded it in the accident wasn't reported to CarFax and the car value wasn't discounted for having been in an accident (more proof you shouldn't trust CarFax).


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

CTSoxFan said:


> Googled. Found one who specialized in these claims. He worked on a contingency (he got 1/3 of the recovery value).
> 
> Was ideal scenario for me. I did almost nothing other than the initial call, provide details of the accident and sign a couple of papers. he did everything else. I had nothing to lose.
> 
> On the plus side, when we traded it in the accident wasn't reported to CarFax and the car value wasn't discounted for having been in an accident (more proof you shouldn't trust CarFax).


Good to know, thanks for sharing! The CA bar does not have any specialization cert that may fit this case, it is unclear how to gauge quality.


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

im not sure I would use an attorney for the initial claim. A specialist in DV claims should be all you need to press forward. 

Kinda depends on the claim size and the relative fees- a 3k DV claim, give the atty 1/3. A 10k DV claim, pay $1000 for a certified DV appraisal.


----------



## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

ard said:


> im not sure I would use an attorney for the initial claim. A specialist in DV claims should be all you need to press forward.
> 
> Kinda depends on the claim size and the relative fees- a 3k DV claim, give the atty 1/3.  A 10k DV claim, pay $1000 for a certified DV appraisal.


You are only considering the cost of the appraisal. They you have to spend time calling/arguing with the other insurance company, time/cost of filing court papers, plus the attorney's expertise in dealing with insurance companies. Hard to put an individual value on those things, obviously, and it may have different values to different people.


----------



## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

namelessman said:


> Good to know, thanks for sharing! The CA bar does not have any specialization cert that may fit this case, it is unclear how to gauge quality.


I don't think CT had a recognized specialty in the area, I just googled DV lawyer and he came up.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

CTSoxFan said:


> You are only considering the cost of the appraisal. They you have to spend time calling/arguing with the other insurance company, time/cost of filing court papers, plus the attorney's expertise in dealing with insurance companies. Hard to put an individual value on those things, obviously, and it may have different values to different people.


That makes sense, namely, if attorney is extra $1000-$2000 or so, the time efficiency and expertise can be worth it, esp. it is $0 cost if $0 settlement. Also some attorneys may accept lowered fees too.


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

CTSoxFan said:


> You are only considering the cost of the appraisal. They you have to spend time calling/arguing with the other insurance company, time/cost of filing court papers, plus the attorney's expertise in dealing with insurance companies. Hard to put an individual value on those things, obviously, and it may have different values to different people.


And you are assuming there WILL be some sort of mystical, time consuming and legally fraught 'back and forth'.

"He's my DV claim, pay it"

If not, THEN you call an attorney and negotiate a deal that takes into account the $1000 you spent on the documentation.

If you have a solid claim, good appraisal and good documentation, there shouldnt be back and forth.

I value my time, but putting value on imaginary tasks seems.... or paying for things that might or might not happen, if only because they are scary unknowns, isnt something I do.

And to clarify, I purposefully chose my examples to allow for some upside and 'fat' in the spread between the two paths. I would also want to make sure the atty isnt just taking the money and writing a letter- that they would actually do the work needed to support a successful claim.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> And you are assuming there WILL be some sort of mystical, time consuming and legally fraught 'back and forth'.
> 
> "He's my DV claim, pay it"
> 
> ...


It is true that without the need of legal proceeding, attorneys seem to be overkill, esp. their hourly rates are high.


----------



## CTSoxFan (Oct 20, 2006)

ard said:


> And you are assuming there WILL be some sort of mystical, time consuming and legally fraught 'back and forth'.
> 
> "He's my DV claim, pay it"
> 
> ...


I agree, it may go as you said. Or the insurance company may play hardball and you'll be glad you had the lawyer. I probably could have found a DV appraiser and paid for it out of pocket, but at that point I had no idea if I would even be successful and I didn't want to be out of pocket any money.

For my particular case (and that is all I can opine on with any certainty) we did have to file a lawsuit to being proceedings, and a couple of months later we settled. Never having done that, I was glad I had an attorney to do so on my behalf. It isn't that I couldn't figure out how to do it, I just preferred an "expert" in this case. Others may feel differently.


----------



## 4.4liter (Apr 19, 2017)

I work in a BMW certified collision center. I couldn't tell you about specifics with insurance or paperwork, etc, but I would probably expect a higher quality of repair from a true BMW shop. Not to say an indie shop wouldn't do a great job because I'm sure they could, but having these kinds of cars being torn apart every day sure helps, for experience and spare parts. Not to mention BMW uses their own line of paint, which would certainly match better unless the indie shop buys their paint from BMW as well.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Bimmerfest mobile app


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

4.4liter said:


> I work in a BMW certified collision center. I couldn't tell you about specifics with insurance or paperwork, etc, but I would probably expect a higher quality of repair from a true BMW shop. Not to say an indie shop wouldn't do a great job because I'm sure they could, but having these kinds of cars being torn apart every day sure helps, for experience and spare parts. Not to mention BMW uses their own line of paint, which would certainly match better unless the indie shop buys their paint from BMW as well.


My understanding is BMW Color System is only available at CCRC as refinish product, or at dealer parts departments as touch up paints. Non CCRC cannot get the factory paint system.

Since spare parts are mentioned, does it mean your CCRC does save salvaged parts as spare? My understanding is CCRC uses brand new factory parts and no re-using of salvaged parts, is that understanding correct?


----------



## 4.4liter (Apr 19, 2017)

namelessman said:


> My understanding is BMW Color System is only available at CCRC as refinish product, or at dealer parts departments as touch up paints. Non CCRC cannot get the factory paint system.
> 
> Since spare parts are mentioned, does it mean your CCRC does save salvaged parts as spare? My understanding is CCRC uses brand new factory parts and no re-using of salvaged parts, is that understanding correct?


You are pretty much correct. A certified BMW dealer will only order brand new, and official BMW parts to repair the vehicle. But in the rare case that some knucklehead breaks something that's not related to the original repair, chances are we will have extras at the BMW shop, and we swap it out for no cost. I know from firsthand that there have been times where the car was meant to be delivered back to the customer by the end of that day, and something broke or was lost that would have delayed the delivery. It was saved because whatever the part may be we had extras laying around. I would also assume unwanted breakage would happen more at non certified shops anyway.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Bimmerfest mobile app


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> My understanding is BMW Color System is only available at CCRC as refinish product, or at dealer parts departments as touch up paints. Non CCRC cannot get the factory paint system.?





4.4liter said:


> You are pretty much correct. ]


But BMW also approves others:



> ColorSystem BMW Group, Glasurit, Spies Hecker
> , Standox are the only approved refinishing
> products for use on BMW vehicles. BMW cert
> ified body shops will use the ColorSystem
> based on the agreement in place.


To be honest, the paint on BMWs is abysmal- full of defects and orange peel. To 'only BMW ColorSystem' because it has BWM in the name (and may in fact NOT be the paint used at the factory!) in the face of substandard paint techniques, seems so odd


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> To be honest, the paint on BMWs is abysmal- full of defects and orange peel. To 'only BMW ColorSystem' because it has BWM in the name (and may in fact NOT be the paint used at the factory!) in the face of substandard paint techniques, seems so odd


The defects and orange peel are mainly the paint jobs(including the ones by factory robots), not the paint itself.

In fact, while my bumper was fixed, the CCRC was picked such that the orange peel could be matched. 

The local Porsche authorized(not certified?) shop can finish(with Standox) without orange peel, but the master painter there said orange peel is a matter of polishing and refinishing, not Standox(and he said he can't match the BMW factory orange peel).


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

I know. My point is why people obsess over using paint that has "BMW" in the name, when that IS NOT the paint BMW used at the factory!

Or why people obsess over special paint when it is a crap job to begin with....

Shop I use can match orange peel. Are you claiming a CCRC was chosen for some unique ability to match orange peel?!? not hardly

You are correct OP is removed by buffing/polishing before clearcoat and between/after coats.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> I know. My point is why people obsess over using paint that has "BMW" in the name, when that IS NOT the paint BMW used at the factory!
> 
> Or why people obsess over special paint when it is a crap job to begin with....
> 
> ...


It is true the BMWNA does not officially say Color System is factory paint, but it is one of approved paint products(if applied by certified painters) that will be warranted for the duration of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, or the approved paints' 5-year warranties, which is longer.

So these refinishing products, including Color System, are as good as it gets.

As far as matching orange peels, my local CCRC did do a perfect match. A previous experience on the old E39 with a reputable indy specialized in BMW was not as good a match as CCRC.



namelessman said:


> Another point is, the approved BMW refinish paint systems back in 2009 were BMW Color System(factory paint), Standox, Glasurit, and Spies Hecker.
> 
> Do check the reputable shop at least uses approved paint(many shops use PPG, which is approved by Tesla and MB, but apparently not BMW).


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> It is true the BMWNA does not officially say Color System is factory paint, but it is one of approved paint products(if applied by certified painters) that will be warranted for the duration of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, or the approved paints' 5-year warranties, which is longer.
> 
> So these refinishing products, including Color System, are as good as it gets.
> 
> .


Well at least we have argued our way towards accuracy.

:thumbup:

The reason Dupont and BMW have created documentation around 'approved' is because some customers seem to think it matters.

You can get shltty results at a certified shop, and excellent results from a non-cert shop. And vice versa.

Having a piece of paper on the wall saying 'Ive done the BMW powerpoint training' or 'we use BMWColor' is a false sense of security.

It seems you feel compelled to place CCRCs and the materials they sell via the Dupont/BMW marketing arrangement as "as good as it gets", but that simply is not true. IMO it is _as good as_ many other systems.

For people who dont understand body work, paint, repairs- the only thing they CAN do is look at pieces of paper. So they think "I dont know WTF I am looking at or looking for, but at least I can make sure there is a cert on the wall".

For example, I wont use a shop that will not give me inspection/rejection rights prior to re-assembly. I will NOT put myself in a position of looking at the car the first time at pick up, and have someone declare 'well it meets BMW standards, so tough crap'.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> Well at least we have argued our way towards accuracy.
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Accurate info about the approved paints was provided in my post #5, but repeated again in your post #35. It looks like arguing only for those who ignore accuracy.

Also my post #2 documented my experience with CCRC.. It does seem your response are compelled by your perception, rather than by understanding the experience shared by others. 

FYI, even that CCRC paint job with dust and dirt under the paint/clear coat passed the paint thickness test. That's the value of those BMWNA/Dupont/BASF training that CCRCs are forced to take.:thumbup:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> For example, I wont use a shop that will not give me inspection/rejection rights prior to re-assembly. I will NOT put myself in a position of looking at the car the first time at pick up, and have someone declare 'well it meets BMW standards, so tough crap'.


In practice, how does inspection/rejection work for, say, frame repair? Do retail customers know the factory specs and be able to look at the repaired frame and say yay or nay? Other than looking at the obvious(e.g. visible misalignment, rust, exposed metal, lousy welding, etc, etc), it is unlikely retail customers have enough time and expertise to not trust the pieces of paper on the wall.

Even for simple thing like paint thickness, the $300-400 handheld meters won't tell the difference between clear coat and base coat. That's how local high end Porsche body shop cuts cost(as confirmed by their master painter), the base coat is barely enough to cover, but they will put extra coats of clear "to keep customers from coming back".

Unless of course one is committed to literally DIY and be there during the whole process(assuming the shop allows that, and that's unlikely too).

And in practice refinishing is night and day from factory robot jobs, so "manufacturer strict repair/refinishing standards" are largely non-factory anyway.

It is good to sound in control, but it is not straightforward in reality.

My take is the lifetime warranty is quite critical, e.g. friends with problems years down the road were able to bring back to shops(e.g. reputable indies, CCRCs) to redo, including body work and paint job. Those are the shops to do business with.

CCRCs with its papers on the wall and BMWNA auspices do have values, at least they will be around for the lifetime of the car.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

BTW, the Porsche shop's master painter said the time he put multiple coats of base is for custom, non-insurance self-paid restoration($$$$$$). And he said he cannot tell base versus clear thickness by looking at it nor with meters, he knows the thickness only by applying the coats himself.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I have a question for the group. To date, I've submitted the claim to my carrier (USAA). The other carrier (State Farm) has admitted 100% liability. If USAA handles the claim for my car repair, they will not cover the extra cost for using BMW-branded parts. They will cover a lesser amount, and I will have to go after the other party for the difference. 

Rather than have USAA's own claims adjuster appraise the damage, USAA has suggested that I might want to contact State Farm's adjuster and have them appraise the claim. This would allow me to make a direct claim for the full cost to repair using BMW parts. But it also takes USAA out of the loop and ends subrogation. I also plan to make a claim for diminished value, which obviously has to be made with State Farm (though I think this happens much later).

Do I make my claim directly with State Farm at the outset, or let USAA handle the repair and argue for the differences later?


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Has USAA already processed Nick's estimate with BMW parts and only paid non-BMW parts? Is Nick's a direct repair shop of USAA?


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

No, they haven't processed the estimate yet -- the car just arrived yesterday and the appraiser isn't scheduled to go out until next week. I will find out if they're a USAA-approved shop, because that will obviously change the equation.



namelessman said:


> Has USAA already processed Nick's estimate with BMW parts and only paid non-BMW parts? Is Nick's a direct repair shop of USAA?


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Robert A said:


> I have a question for the group. To date, I've submitted the claim to my carrier (USAA). The other carrier (State Farm) has admitted 100% liability. If USAA handles the claim for my car repair, they will not cover the extra cost for using BMW-branded parts. They will cover a lesser amount, and I will have to go after the other party for the difference.
> 
> Rather than have USAA's own claims adjuster appraise the damage, USAA has suggested that I might want to contact State Farm's adjuster and have them appraise the claim. This would allow me to make a direct claim for the full cost to repair using BMW parts. But it also takes USAA out of the loop and ends subrogation. I also plan to make a claim for diminished value, which obviously has to be made with State Farm (though I think this happens much later).
> 
> Do I make my claim directly with State Farm at the outset, or let USAA handle the repair and argue for the differences later?


This is why I asked this earlier.

Go after SF directly, IMO. If USAA is unwilling to assist. SUbbrogation isn't a good thing IMO. Just a convenience. SF would love it, the amount that pay for a subroageted claim is less - on average.

IMO you need your shop to be on your side, they must understand that YOU are the customer. (Their close relationships with the insurers can often time result in an un-demanding customer getting the short shrift...)

You may still have a challenge- they will want to specifiy 'used BMW parts'. There are ways around this. PM me if you want more details.

Is SF paying for a rental car yet? I alwsys wonder if that speeds up things....

GL


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

ard said:


> This is why I asked this earlier.
> 
> Go after SF directly, IMO. If USAA is unwilling to assist. SUbbrogation isn't a good thing IMO. Just a convenience. SF would love it, the amount that pay for a subroageted claim is less - on average.
> 
> ...


^^^ I'm with ard on this. Kindly ask USAA to stand down and let SF know what your requirements are for repair, and let them know you are expecting a DV component of the settlement. Might as well put the fish on the table.
dk


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> No, they haven't processed the estimate yet -- the car just arrived yesterday and the appraiser isn't scheduled to go out until next week. I will find out if they're a USAA-approved shop, because that will obviously change the equation.


Do find out if Nick's is direct repair shop with USAA and/or State Farm.

Do talk to Nick's SAs and find out how they work with each insurance(e.g. they may get BMW parts approved at $0 cost to u) and decide.

Do ask Nick for a loaner(it is a $17k repair), which save tons of time from picking up and dropping off rentals.

Best of luck with the repair! :thumbup:


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> You may still have a challenge- they will want to specifiy 'used BMW parts'.


CCRCs need to use brand new BMW parts or else they will lose certification.

Having said that, another local CCRC(which takes non-BMW cars too) once said they are OK to put in non-BMW parts if approved by customers.

CCRCs can ask customers to pay the difference paid by insurance for non-BMW parts and BMW parts.


----------



## 4.4liter (Apr 19, 2017)

namelessman said:


> CCRCs need to use brand new BMW parts or else they will lose certification.
> 
> Having said that, another local CCRC(which takes non-BMW cars too) once said they are OK to put in non-BMW parts if approved by customers.
> 
> CCRCs can ask customers to pay the difference paid by insurance for non-BMW parts and BMW parts.


Also true. Thee dealership that I work at repairs everything to factory spec unless it was previously modified by the owner. In that case we will notify the insurance company and they choose whether to pay for replacement aftermarket parts or not. But that's typically the only scenario in which we will use non BMW parts

Sent from my SM-G950U using Bimmerfest mobile app


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I think it'd be okay with factory refurbished parts as long as they met BMW's specifications and warranty requirements. We don't necessary get brand new parts on warranty claims, so I wouldn't expect differently on collision repairs.



namelessman said:


> CCRCs need to use brand new BMW parts or else they will lose certification.
> 
> Having said that, another local CCRC(which takes non-BMW cars too) once said they are OK to put in non-BMW parts if approved by customers.
> 
> CCRCs can ask customers to pay the difference paid by insurance for non-BMW parts and BMW parts.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> I think it'd be okay with factory refurbished parts as long as they met BMW's specifications and warranty requirements. We don't necessary get brand new parts on warranty claims, so I wouldn't expect differently on collision repairs.


Can warranty replacement parts be non brand new parts?

My local SAs ordered those parts(e.g. head units, roof function units, door latches) for my car, and the parts were covered till end of new car warranty. Can those be BMW factory refurbished parts?

It is true most CCRCs advertise "genuine factory parts", but do not say "brand new parts".


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> CCRCs need to use brand new BMW parts or else they will lose certification.
> 
> Having said that, another local CCRC(which takes non-BMW cars too) once said they are OK to put in non-BMW parts if approved by customers.
> 
> CCRCs can ask customers to pay the difference paid by insurance for non-BMW parts and BMW parts.


I AM NOT SAYING THE CCRC.

I am referencing the insurance company.

A CCRC will not 'lose certification' if the customer (owner) agrees with the insurance and allows the use of used parts.....


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> I AM NOT SAYING THE CCRC.
> 
> I am referencing the insurance company.
> 
> A CCRC will not 'lose certification' if the customer (owner) agrees with the insurance and allows the use of used parts.....


That's true, if customers agree to using non-BMW parts the CCRC will be in the clear.

There was a PDF of CCRC cert requirements online(can't locate now), my recollection is that there is a clause about using BMW parts as a condition. It is unclear if both brand new and factory refurbished parts are OK.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Since BMW's website says, "Original BMW Parts", I take that to mean factory parts and that should be good enough.



namelessman said:


> Can warranty replacement parts be non brand new parts?
> 
> My local SAs ordered those parts(e.g. head units, roof function units, door latches) for my car, and the parts were covered till end of new car warranty. Can those be BMW factory refurbished parts?
> 
> It is true most CCRCs advertise "genuine factory parts", but do not say "brand new parts".


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I think it's assumed that CCRCs can use refurbished parts. I'm okay with that as long as BMW certifies and warrants the part as meeting its own specs.



namelessman said:


> That's true, if customers agree to using non-BMW parts the CCRC will be in the clear.
> 
> There was a PDF of CCRC cert requirements online(can't locate now), my recollection is that there is a clause about using BMW parts as a condition. It is unclear if both brand new and factory refurbished parts are OK.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

The original PDF is not yet located, but this is an interesting article about CCRC, and the article quotes some of the cert requirements(and conditions of de-certification):

http://www.autobodynews.com/index.p...or-a-bmw-dealership-to-become-a-bmw-ccrc.html

Usage of Original BMW Parts Criteria
The CCRC Program *prohibits* the installation of imitation, aftermarket, non-BMW remanufactured, and/or salvage (allegedly Like Kind and Quality) parts, including glass, on any year or model BMW passenger car or SAV. Failure to comply with this requirement qualifies for *automatic de-certification from the CCRC Program* for at least the remainder of the calendar year in which these non-approved parts were installed."


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> I think it's assumed that CCRCs can use refurbished parts. I'm okay with that as long as BMW certifies and warrants the part as meeting its own specs.


One motivation of BMWNA signing off on CCRC program is this:

"Collision Repair Parts Incentive Program
All BMW Centers have the opportunity to open a BMW CCRC. BMW NA offers all CCRCs the opportunity to participate in the monthly Collision Repair Parts Incentive Program. Eligible BMW CCRCs can earn a 2% rebate on the dealer cost of *all original BMW parts purchased from BMW NA and used by the CCRC for non-warranty or non-maintenance collision repairs.* The BMW CCRC is eligible for the rebate only if the CCRC remains compliant with the CCRC Program."

And this:

"Program Participants
Successful results in the CCRC Program rely heavily upon the CCRC's professionals and the culture in which they operate. These individuals are responsible for adopting the processes necessary to: *order and install original BMW parts, follow BMW Repair Specifications and use only BMW NA approved paint, materials, tools, and equipment for every BMW collision repair*."

The whole program aims to increase parts sales, especially when paid by insurance!!! :thumbup:


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Good enough for me. I just have to talk to the CCRC about getting State Farm on board with the idea.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> I think it's assumed that CCRCs can use refurbished parts. I'm okay with that as long as BMW certifies and warrants the part as meeting its own specs.


Interestingly, can CCRC(or any indy) order refurbished part# from BMWNA?

Local indies do contract with local spare parts shops to locate refurbished/like-kind/aftermarket parts.

It is unclear if BMWNA has such a refurbished-part department. My guess is no, except like 4.4Liter said the shop may grab a spare [email protected] if some minor parts(e.g. clips? plastic trims) break unexpectedly.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> Good enough for me. I just have to talk to the CCRC about getting State Farm on board with the idea.


Worst case is State Farm does not pay new factory parts but even paid out-of-pocket there is value to go CCRC from my perspective.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I don't understand what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure any dealer or indy can purchase refurbished factory parts.



namelessman said:


> Interestingly, can CCRC(or any indy) order refurbished part# from BMWNA?
> 
> Local indies do contract with local spare parts shops to locate refurbished/like-kind/aftermarket parts.
> 
> It is unclear if BMWNA has such a refurbished-part department. My guess is no, except like 4.4Liter said the shop may grab a spare [email protected] if some minor parts(e.g. clips? plastic trims) break unexpectedly.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I think SF's responsibility is to make me whole. And since I had BMW factory parts before the accident, I would expect the replacement parts to meet the same requirements. But my car wasn't brand new, so factory refurb is fine if it meets factory specs.


namelessman said:


> Worst case is State Farm does not pay new factory parts but even paid out-of-pocket there is value to go CCRC from my perspective.


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> That's true, if customers agree to using non-BMW parts the CCRC will be in the clear.
> 
> There was a PDF of CCRC cert requirements online(can't locate now), my recollection is that there is a clause about using BMW parts as a condition. It is unclear if both brand new and factory refurbished parts are OK.


Im no saying 'non-BMW'. im not saying 'factory refurbished'...

Im saying used parts of another BMW, different color- repainted. aka 'recycled'

The insurance may demand this- if it is your policy, for sure. In California I think every policy has langauge around this.. If someone is liable for the damages there is a better case to press for 'all new BMW'. (you are not bound by the policy language)

But again, if insurance insists and the owner doesnt want to pay the difference,the CCRC will install whatever the customer decides.

Point being the CCRC cert and the CCRC management CANNOT overrule anything, they cannot point to their cert and say "BMW wont let us" and thereby force the coverage.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> I don't understand what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure any dealer or indy can purchase refurbished factory parts.


My experience with factory refurbished parts would be those with core charges, e.g. re-manufactured catalyst converter, ZF 8AT unit.

But bumper cover, trunk lid sheet metal(etc, etc), have no core charges, so it is unclear if BMWNA stocks refinished parts on those part#.

For sure local spare parts shops do just that(getting crumbled parts and refinishing them), but can CCRC order from those shops without violating cert requirements(not 100% clear)?


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

If the shop is smart, AND honest with you, it is pretty easy to get new parts even if insurance is requiring some used.... BMW wholesale has incentives to shops to upsell, a shop should 'manage' their bids to the dealer such that the dealer can dip into the deepest % discounts BMWNA allow. Shops like to pocket this $$$ but if they apply it to your overall job, the money should be there. I pay %15 under the prices State Farm (and my shop) use for part pricing. On a large job, given their volume, shops can do better than that.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

The CCRC has to have a way of staying in business besides asking customers to pay the difference in parts cost. My bet is that they've established a relationship with major insurance companies. And as you suggested, I'm not bound by policy language in the case of the other party.

I will be speaking with the CCRC tomorrow morning.



ard said:


> Im no saying 'non-BMW'. im not saying 'factory refurbished'...
> 
> Im saying used parts of another BMW, different color- repainted. aka 'recycled'
> 
> ...


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> If the shop is smart, AND honest with you, it is pretty easy to get new parts even if insurance is requiring some used.... BMW wholesale has incentives to shops to upsell, a shop should 'manage' their bids to the dealer such that the dealer can dip into the deepest % discounts BMWNA allow. Shops like to pocket this $$$ but if they apply it to your overall job, the money should be there. I pay %15 under the prices State Farm (and my shop) use for part pricing. On a large job, given their volume, shops can do better than that.


That is exactly the point, CCRC estimate lists full retail(and charge insurance full retail) but they pay 85%(e.g.) and pockets the difference, plus extra 2%(e.g.) rebate from BMWNA to CCRC.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> The CCRC has to have a way of staying in business besides asking customers to pay the difference in parts cost. My bet is that they've established a relationship with major insurance companies. And as you suggested, I'm not bound by policy language in the case of the other party.
> 
> I will be speaking with the CCRC tomorrow morning.


Let's know how it goes.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> Point being the CCRC cert and the CCRC management CANNOT overrule anything, they cannot point to their cert and say "BMW wont let us" and thereby force the coverage.


In cases done in my local CCRC(including mine, and friend's jobs including frame repair), only BMW parts were quoted, but yet always approved, regardless of OEM coverage or otherwise. That specific CCRC is direct repair shop so that probably does make a difference.

RobertA does have a point, namely, shops and insurance likely have strong relationships, and getting brand new parts approved probably saves time and money(e.g. no redo through lifetime warranty) for both parties.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

I've read this thread with great interest.

I am reminded of an accident years ago where a young driver in a pickup truck spun across 4 rain-slicked lanes on the freeway and managed to take out much of the front of my Jag during one of the 360's he did before he landed in the center divider.

First thing I said to him when we got over to the shoulder was, "You okay?" When he said he was, I reassured him that cars can be fixed and I asked him for his insurance info.

Later that night the driver's father called me and thanked me for being so courteous to his son and he assured me that he would make sure his insurance company took care of my car.

The pickup driver was insured by State Farm. He was 100% at fault and I took my Jag to the repair center in Burbank recommended by my Jag dealer. When the Burbank collision center finished, the car was trucked to my Jag dealer who went over my Jag to make sure everything was correct -- which it was. 

Mine was a leased car that I did not intend to keep but I didn't want any lease return issues. There were none when I turned the car in.

A colleague suggested I lawyer up and claim diminished value and negligence on the part of the driver who hit my car.

Hey, accidents happen. State Farm took good care. The adjuster promptly approved several requests for modifications to the body shop's original estimate as additional damage was revealed during the repair process.

Any of us, even the most attentive, are often a nano-second away from rear-ending someone. It happens.

So, in this instance, unless the driver who rear-ended the OP was grossly negligent (texting or distracted or speeding or the like), take the car to a high line body shop, be courteous but firm with the adjuster, and state your expectation that, while you understand accidents happen, you expect your car to be restored using only BMW-approved parts and materials and you expect there to be no delays or further inconvenience. And, if it's important to you, you expect reasonable compensation for diminished value. I'm sure the insurance people have a formula.

Nothing more uncertain or unpleasant then litigation. Litigation, or the threat thereof, is an admission that good faith failed. I like to exhaust the possibilities for good faith first. And I like to do all I can to encourage those on the other side of my negotiations to take the opportunity to proceed in good faith as well. Good things often result. If not, there's always time for lawyering up.

But if the person who rear-ended the OP was texting... well, that's just not courteous and there should be a surcharge.


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

If it is a leased car, YOU dont own it. You have no standing for a diminished value claim!



Still, its the courteous thought that counts.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

ard said:


> If it is a leased car, YOU dont own it. You have no standing for a diminished value claim!
> 
> 
> 
> Still, its the courteous thought that counts.


Well... since we're all just being jailhouse lawyers here. Leases contain the option to purchase. Thus the "value" of the vehicle to the leasee, or the potential value might be a factor.... and then there is the concern that if returned at lease end there could be charges if the inspection report says the repairs don't cut it. All depends on what a trier of fact would determine.

But I hope this deal doesn't come to any of that. Like a good neighbor, State Farm outta be there.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

1968BMW2800 said:


> Well... since we're all just being jailhouse lawyers here. Leases contain the option to purchase. Thus the "value" of the vehicle to the leasee, or the potential value might be a factor.... and then there is the concern that if returned at lease end there could be charges if the inspection report says the repairs don't cut it. All depends on what a trier of fact would determine.
> 
> But I hope this deal doesn't come to any of that. Like a good neighbor, State Farm outta be there.


ard's point is since lessee is not the owner, DV claim is meaningless as the DV compensation goes to the owner(BMWFS in this case).

If that's true, then it will be really suck for lease end buyout, as the lessee now has DV in hand, but BMWFS receives DV compensation! :yikes:

Nonetheless, the common wisdom from festers is to use CCRC for repairs on leased cars, such that any lease end issue can be dealt with between entities under BMWNA(CCRC versus BMWFS).


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Do we know for certain that a lessee cannot make a claim for DV? To be clear, we own our car, but if I were a lessee, I can visualize a scenario for DV.


namelessman said:


> ard's point is since lessee is not the owner, DV claim is meaningless as the DV compensation goes to the owner(BMWFS in this case).
> 
> If that's true, then it will be really suck for lease end buyout, as the lessee now has DV in hand, but BMWFS receives DV compensation! :yikes:
> 
> Nonetheless, the common wisdom from festers is to use CCRC for repairs on leased cars, such that any lease end issue can be dealt with between entities under BMWNA(CCRC versus BMWFS).


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> Do we know for certain that a lessee cannot make a claim for DV? To be clear, we own our car, but if I were a lessee, I can visualize a scenario for DV.


CA Court of Appeal, Fourth Appellate District did make a ruling a year ago to disallow a BMWFS lessee to claim DV. 

"_The plaintiff argued that if he kept the vehicle after its release, he would have suffered diminished value because the car could not be sold as "certified." But the Court stated the plaintiff had not purchased the vehicle, and he could not make a claim for damages based on what might have happened._ "

It sounds like if lessee quickly buys out the car(before lease expiration) then DV claims will be allowed on leased car.

https://www.southerncaliforniainjur...alue-car-accident-according-california-court/


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

So Nick Alexander is a USAA-approved shop. The shop recommended that I keep my claim with USAA and they'll resolve any cost differences over the use of factory parts. Now to work out the rental car.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> So Nick Alexander is a USAA-approved shop. The shop recommended that I keep my claim with USAA and they'll resolve any cost differences over the use of factory parts. Now to work out the rental car.


That is good news. :thumbup:

Local CCRCs do have dealer loaners, but with 2-3 weeks of wait time.

Since your car needs repair right away then insurance rental seems to be the right route.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> A CCRC will not 'lose certification' if the customer (owner) agrees with the insurance and allows the use of used parts.....


A coworker went to local CCRC for quotes, and found out the shop is no longer direct repair since a few months ago.

One main reason quoted is insurer did not renew the contract's clause of brand new parts only.  Also direct shop's labor rate, and part's markup, also were low compared to non-direct.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Repair facility told me this morning that the car may be a total loss. Will know more tomorrow when insurance appraiser comes out.

What options are there for negotiating a settlement if it is totalled? My car was built to order with things that are not commonly available on in-stock new or used BMWs. Diesel, M-Sport, HK Radio and Nappa. Plus, the car was still in warranty (by a month).


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> Repair facility told me this morning that the car may be a total loss. Will know more tomorrow when insurance appraiser comes out.
> 
> What options are there for negotiating a settlement if it is totalled? My car was built to order with things that are not commonly available on in-stock new or used BMWs. Diesel, M-Sport, HK Radio and Nappa. Plus, the car was still in warranty (by a month).


That is unfortunate, but it also is a new beginning. :thumbup:

My guess is a number close to Nada clean retail for your miles and MY would be a good start, as that's what is needed to make whole(to purchase a comparable car).

EDIT: Nada spits out $31750, that's not bad. So what is the next car?


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Id not be surprised if that is wishful....mid 20s will be their first offer, imo

sorry to hear. I suspected this earlier.

You will need to fight. You want to see details on every car they are using as a comp, need to understand if it is accurate- in terms of features, condition and sale price.

ALSO- they owe you sales tax and any fees you need to register the replacement. This is important: DO NOT mention this until after you have negotiated the _value_. The building blocks for the argument will begin with their reported values of comps- assuming all of these are sale prices, not 'sale price plus tax and fees'. So that during the back and forth it will be clear from the evidence that sales tax and fees was never a component of their value calculation. Once you determine that amount, then add 8,9% and registration fees. If you spring this too early and have not laid the groundwork, they simply claim 'oh all of it included all that'. Restated, if their comps do not include sales tax in the prices, a total loss value using these comps cannot already include tax.

Id have a problem if my shop wasnt sharing costs and calcs with me PRIOR to an adjuster arriving...

GL,

Oh, one last thought- did you bring up DV with them? If so, that was a terrible tactical mistake (if you wanted the car repaired). They will take their lowball value, repair costs- and apply the formula. if they are hearing "DV" on top, another 5k, maybe they just say 'lets total'. Dunno


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

ard said:


> Id not be surprised if that is wishful....mid 20s will be their first offer, imo
> 
> sorry to hear. I suspected this earlier.
> 
> ...


Good tips on the sales tax.:thumbup:

A beater in the family did encounter total loss. The insurer at the time did provide a detailed report with 3 comps(at least) and had sales and fees as separate line items. This format probably is enforced by CA insurance commissioner or something.

The 3 comps were also clearly documented, e.g. sources(e.g. auctions), dates of sales, etc, etc. The assessed value before tax and fees was $500 lower than kbb at the time, but it was a beater so it wasn't too bad.

The DV angle can be a factor, but RobertA is going through own insurance, so the faulty party's insurer is not in play yet(presumably) with body shop, right?

None the less, if DV can push the claim towards total loss, that may not be a bad thing, assuming the payout is satisfactory.


----------



## Alpine300ZHP (Jan 31, 2007)

Robert A said:


> Repair facility told me this morning that the car may be a total loss. Will know more tomorrow when insurance appraiser comes out.
> 
> What options are there for negotiating a settlement if it is totalled? My car was built to order with things that are not commonly available on in-stock new or used BMWs. Diesel, M-Sport, HK Radio and Nappa. Plus, the car was still in warranty (by a month).


They will give you fair market value for a 535d. As you know, a car's options add very little to the value of the used car relative to the price of those options when the car was new. I hope you get a good settlement. As far as negotiations, I have not heard too many people having tremendous success negotiating insurance payouts (I have heard of people being low balled and then providing evidence that the figure was too low and getting small increases in the settlement amount).

Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest mobile app


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Alpine300ZHP said:


> As far as negotiations, I have not heard too many people having tremendous success negotiating insurance payouts (I have heard of people being low balled and then providing evidence that the figure was too low and getting small increases in the settlement amount).


I tend to agree. HOWEVER, most people just scream at the adjuster- 'this is an outrage, Im gonna sue'.

Those that develop a detailed spreadsheet of every XYZ in year ABC for sale in the state/country/500 mile radius have a much higher likelihood of getting some upward adjustment.

You can look up the VINs of the cars they use as comps in a vin decoder to find the options- when yours has more options, cite the new cost of that option as an 'adjustment'. You dont need to be 'fair' with your demands, this is just a tool to impune their comp/value.

If there are no cars for sale within a few hours drive, perhaps you can add on costs necessary for replacement. again, just tools to move it up...


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

I'll analyze the heck out this. The problem is that there just aren't very many 535d's out there.

Before accepting any offer, we have to give due consideration for what car cost when we bought it used last April, then paid to replace four worn out tires and repair bumper scrapes.



ard said:


> I tend to agree. HOWEVER, most people just scream at the adjuster- 'this is an outrage, Im gonna sue'.
> 
> Those that develop a detailed spreadsheet of every XYZ in year ABC for sale in the state/country/500 mile radius have a much higher likelihood of getting some upward adjustment.
> 
> ...


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

FWIW:



> (b) In evaluating automobile total loss claims the following standards shall apply:
> 
> (1) The insurer may elect a cash settlement that shall be based upon the actual cost of a "comparable automobile" less any deductible provided in the policy. This cash settlement amount shall include all applicable taxes and one-time fees incident to transfer of evidence of ownership of a comparable automobile. This amount shall also include the license fee and other annual fees to be computed based upon the remaining term of the loss vehicle's current registration. This procedure shall apply whether or not a replacement automobile is purchased.
> 
> ...


https://www.insurance.ca.gov/01-con...rings/05-CCR/fair-claims-regs.cfm#settlements


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> Before accepting any offer, we have to give due consideration for what car cost when we bought it used last April, then paid to replace four worn out tires and repair bumper scrapes.


That strategy has been attempted on our beater case to no avail, the rebuttal was that the extra cost is needed to maintain FMV.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Interesting and very useful. The only question in my mind is whether this language just as applicable when going after the other party.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

Except in our case those defects existed at the time of purchase.



namelessman said:


> That strategy has been attempted on our beater case to no avail, the rebuttal was that the extra cost is needed to maintain FMV.


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Robert A said:


> Interesting and very useful. The only question in my mind is whether this language just as applicable when going after the other party.


Frankly, I was wondering the same- but felt the quetion might be too in the weeds.

In other words, under a policy, the laws on insurnace are applicable...but when yoiu are going after the other DRIVER and that PERSON is 100% liable for your loss, the policy rules dont apply.

Everyone kinda goes with the flow- but I wonder if there is something to exploit there... :dunno:


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

The "flow?"


ard said:


> Frankly, I was wondering the same- but felt the quetion might be too in the weeds.
> 
> In other words, under a policy, the laws on insurnace are applicable...but when yoiu are going after the other DRIVER and that PERSON is 100% liable for your loss, the policy rules dont apply.
> 
> Everyone kinda goes with the flow- but I wonder if there is something to exploit there... :dunno:


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Robert A said:


> The "flow?"


Yes, the flow being whatever the insurance company says. Either their insurance or the other party's insurance.

The other party's insurance will basically pretend that YOU are subject to the same rules as a policy holder- even if that is in fact not true.


----------



## 1968BMW2800 (Aug 13, 2016)

Sad to hear the shop is thinking total. This may involve more than one friendly but firm conversation with the adjuster(s).

FWIW, on 2 occasions I was hit and the other party was 100% at fault. With occasion #1, a truck backed into me and did a number on the front -- but it was very low speed so there was no frame or engine compartment damage -- just a crinkled hood and thrashed front bumper, about $2,500 worth of damage as I recall. The at-fault guy's carriers started talking total as the book resale on the 1984 Jag was very low. I showed receipts of restoration work we had done to the car which, I argued, was more than maintenance. The carrier came through and the car was beautifully repaired at our favorite shop. As I like to say, "No" is just the start of a conversation.

With occasion #2, a guy sideswiped my 1989 Jag XJS V-12 (not particularly valuable but a rare car) and took off the drivers sideview mirror and there was some minor damage including a long paint scrape. The adjuster approved replacement of the mirror and blending of 2 panels for the paint, plus minor repairs. A very courteous conversation followed, during which I pointed out that the adjuster's insured party was driving at excessive speed and in a reckless manner and sideswiped me because, by his own admission, he drifted into my lane (on the freeway) because he was reaching down to retrieve a CD. I held that I wanted to be fair and reasonable and I wasn't interested in claiming diminished value or emotional trauma, or negligent operation of a vehicle by his insured, and I also mentioned that my evasive actions prevented a worse outcome... and, as we stood there looking at my car, the adjuster admitted it was a beauty -- they agreed to paint the entire car and paid for a rental.

In OP's situation, as I recall he was rear-ended. Room for some friendly conversation there, I would think. If everyone remains reasonable and nobody gets rude or greedy.


----------



## dkreidel (Aug 24, 2005)

namelessman said:


> That strategy has been attempted on our beater case to no avail, the rebuttal was that the extra cost is needed to maintain FMV.


Exactly right. New tires and paint repair is not considered betterment; it's considered normal and customary maintenance to maintain the FMV.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> Except in our case those defects existed at the time of purchase.


In that case the FMV at time of purchase should already be adjusted for those defects, right?

The comps from insurance will be based on current FMV.

If those defects are still present at time of accident, the current FMV will be affected(and adjusted downwards).


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Robert A said:


> Interesting and very useful. The only question in my mind is whether this language just as applicable when going after the other party.


Other than clause 5, "In first party automobile total loss claims ....", the other clauses seem to be applicable to your case, namely, third party claim.


----------



## Robert A (May 18, 2003)

So the initial word is $15k of damage, which is $6k to $7k away from a total. The damage so far appears to be isolated to the trunk, leaving the suspension and passenger compartment unharmed. They're going to tear it down a little further to confirm there's no additional damage.

FWIW, USAA's "value" in the case of a total is $33k before tax.


----------



## namelessman (Dec 23, 2004)

Those are good data points. :thumbup:

USAA's total loss threshold is around 65% of FMV. 

Also Nada's $31750 is close to USAA's number, so Nada is a good reference then.

What can be a ballpark DV figure for a $20k repair on $33k FMV?


----------



## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

namelessman said:


> Other than clause 5, "In first party automobile total loss claims ...."*, the other clauses seem to be applicable to your case, namely, third party claim.*


Uh, you should read up first....

OP is absolutely NOT a 3rd party


----------

