# Ultimate BS AutoX setup for the ZHiPpers



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

On a BMW, aftermarket pads don't do shit at autocrossing speeds. Buy pads for pedal feel ONLY.

Rear shock mounts are legal, and the have ZERO effect on suspension geometry.

Bushings are NOT legal. (Don't you guys even look at the PUBLICLY posted copy of the rule book?)

The front bar is free in stock.

The exhaust DOES make a difference. Remember that in stock we are talking about dramatically diminishing returns. There's a reason why this is listed as the last mod you should bother with. Also remember that an exhaust change improves throttle response, which is PRICELESS.


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> On a BMW, aftermarket pads don't do shit at autocrossing speeds. Buy pads for pedal feel ONLY.
> 
> *Really? Brakes just don't factor in on most courses that much? My background is track racing. I just figured that pad changes can provide significantly more decelleration, which should produce time. But if you mostly just dab, then I guess it doesn't matter much. Probably depends on your course.
> *
> ...


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## SpaceMonkey (Mar 13, 2002)

Spacers are bad because they add extra weight? But getting a exhaust that saves over 20 lbs. and improves throttle repsonse is a waste?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

On a BMW, aftermarket pads don't do shit at autocrossing speeds. Buy pads for pedal feel ONLY.

*Really? Brakes just don't factor in on most courses that much? My background is track racing. I just figured that pad changes can provide significantly more decelleration, which should produce time. But if you mostly just dab, then I guess it doesn't matter much. Probably depends on your course.
*

_Tires are the ONLY limitation on braking in a BMW. Hell, you can run dustless pads at autox and I doubt they'd affect your times. (Unless you dislike the pedal feel, of course.)_

Rear shock mounts are legal, and they have ZERO effect on suspension geometry.

*Are any mounts legal, especially for the front that do increase camber? I think that would be big.
*

_Altering suspension mounting points is a big nono in stock. Camber plates are HIGHLY illegal, and no other strut bearing replacements exist (or are legal, for that matter)._

Bushings are NOT legal. (Don't you guys even look at the PUBLICLY posted copy of the rule book?)

*No I'm sorry but I didn't. I knew you or one of the other experienced crossers would have our backs, thanks for keeping us square. But it does bring up the point that Andy MUST get the actual rule book and learn it inside out.*

_Hell, just go to http://www.moutons.org They've got a pretty comprehensive copy up there..._

The front bar is free in stock.

*If you don't mind saying, do you run an aftermarket one? which one? what setting? What benefits does it provide?*

_I *wish* that I could run one. Unfortunately, in spite of my best efforts, no front bar exists for the xi. In fact, you can go to the UUC page and you'll see that I've pestered them so much that they specifically state that no bars are available for the "xit," rather than simply the xi._

The exhaust DOES make a difference. Remember that in stock we are talking about dramatically diminishing returns. There's a reason why this is listed as the last mod you should bother with. Also remember that an exhaust change improves throttle response, which is PRICELESS.

*Throttle response is a big deal, good point. I wouldn't think a cat back would really affect it. That's why is so nice to get input from people who've tried these parts.*

_Hell, disabling the noise valve on my exhaust makes a difference. You guys don't have one to disable, of course. And frankly, if you get 1hp and 1 ft-lb. of torque, that might make the thousandth of a second that you needed to win. I think it's Tim Aro who's missed first place (in clas, of course) at the last three Nats by a cumulative total of .097 seconds. One more horsepower might well have given him the trophy._


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

I should note that my pad statement does not in ANY way apply to track use.


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

SpaceMonkey said:


> Spacers are bad because they add extra weight? But getting a exhaust that saves over 20 lbs. and improves throttle repsonse is a waste?


Just opinions.

Here's why I think that. The spacers are hunks of solid metal (so probably heavy) and they are unsprung and rotating masses, which are the most critical. I thought Pinecone was only messing with them to get to legal offsets with after market wheels on a M3. I know how under/oversteer can be managed with spacers but it seems like tire pressure or alignment would be more effective.

Is there something beneficial about the spacers that I didn't reckon?

I agree that throttle response is essential to any racer (more critical than power). If a cat back will do that, then hell yes it's a good thing. I didn't figure it would since our systems seem pretty free flowing. If you guys have 'em and notice a benefit, that's good stuff.

Although, low, centrally mounted, sprung weight isn't critical, 20 lbs. is 20 lbs. and we did start this conversation saying that cost wasn't the big issue. So I definitely stand corrected on that. But I would still add that late in the sequence unless the change in throttle response is signifcant.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

The exhaust is definitely the last thing I'd do. 

And remember that the biggest issue with wheel weight is rotational inertia. While spacers may have a (tiny) effect on suspension compression and rebound, their mass is located on the wheel hub which is not nearly as harmful as it would be at the edge of the rim.


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

*Thanks*

Nick,
Thanks for the repost of your mouton.org link. That was exactly what fans and newbs (like me) need to participate in this discussion better informed. I appreciate your patience.

Andy, you NEED to buy the actual rules. If you are going racing you need to know every rule that can screw or help you.

Since most autocross corses are probably smooth, you're probably right that rotational mass is the biggest deal.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

And yeah, if you're going to try competing at Nats, they check to see if you have a rulebook. So you might as well buy one. Moreover, should you place decently, people will look very carefully for anything that's out of line. It'd really suck if you worked your butt off for that trophy and then lost it because of some stupid little infraction that you should have known about.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Rear shock mounts are legal, and the have ZERO effect on suspension geometry.


the general concensus of the SEB is that they're not. What is considered a shock bushing is what comes attached to the shock. Otherwise it is considered a chassis/suspension bushing. GC mounts are not allowed. I've never had an issue with OE mounts so IMO it's a moot point.

otherwise, half the stuff you noobs are discussing is meaningless, oh well you'll learn eventually


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

I varied between tires or shocks first.

On teh M3s the stock shocks are pretty much going away at 10 - 15K miles. So shocks are high on the list.

Also for someone with only 4 events, R -compsare not the best things at this time, IMO. More events, then R-comps.

WRT wheels and spacers, if you are tuning, go with more offset and then tune with spacers. Once you know where you want to be, then get custom wheels with proper offset.

Pads depend on the types of courses. Arund here, most of the courses are fairly tight, so pads don't make a big difference. Other areas may run more open courses, and pads may help a little bit. But the BMW stock pads are very good.

The wheels came before the R-comps since unless you want to drive R-comps on the street, you will need a second seto f rims. A second set of stock rims would do to start. But personally, I would buy the llighter rims with the tires. 

And as was pointed out, the info on shaving the hweels was an illustratin based on the E46 M3 and some available reasonably priced wheels.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

TeamZ4 said:


> the general concensus of the SEB is that they're not. What is considered a shock bushing is what comes attached to the shock. Otherwise it is considered a chassis/suspension bushing. GC mounts are not allowed. I've never had an issue with OE mounts so IMO it's a moot point.
> 
> otherwise, half the stuff you noobs are discussing is meaningless, oh well you'll learn eventually


 Huh, I guess that's what I get for not keeping an up to date rule book around. I don't seem to recall the language that defines a shock mount as a suspension bushing last time I read that section.

You pick something up every day.

Here's the language for those of you who care:


> 13.5 B
> # The mounting hardware shall be of the original type. The use of any shock absorber bushing material, including metal, is permitted. This does not permit the use of an offset shock absorber bushing. The bushing attaching the end of the strut to the body or frame on a strut type suspension is a suspension bushing, not a shock absorber bushing. Suspension bushings, including but not limited to those which carry the weight of the car and determine ride height, may not be replaced with bushings of a different material or dimension.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Oh, on toe. That is definately something you want to play with. It depends on the course, the car and the driver. You can use it to tune the car.

IO would sart with max negative camber front and rear. I would have an alignment shop do it the first time, then buy the stuff to adjust it yourself. Smart Racing products makes a very nice digital camber guage (about $250 IIRC) and the also make Smart Strings for toe adjust (about $350).

Be advised BMW uses a fully loaded condition for alignment. So you may want the car loaded as you autocross, meaning 1/2 tank of gas and your weight only in the drivers seat.

Nick is right, the strut tops are considered SUSPENSION bushings, so they are not legal to change. You can use any method that the factory desiginates in writing for camber correction using crash bolts, etc. The E46 M3 at least has a pin that locates the strut top that can be removed to use the slotted towers to adjust camber a bit. This is for crash camber correction and should be legal.

I haven't really looked for the info in the TIS.

The RSM bushings can be changed, but not the RSMs themselves (to change in Street Prepared).


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> The RSM bushings can be changed, but not the RSMs themselves (to change in Street Prepared).


I won't repeat myself again, I'm telling you as an SEB member that my fellow members do not agree with that assessment. We had a lengthy discussion about this past February at the National Convention. Proceed at your own risk. :nono:

It wouldn't hurt for somebody to send in a letter asking for a clarification to rekindle the subject again :eeps:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Eh, I don't think a clarification is needed based on the text I've just pasted in a little bit further up. They are clearly defined as suspension bushings which cannot legally be changed.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

TeamZ4 said:


> I won't repeat myself again, I'm telling you as an SEB member that my fellow members do not agree with that assessment. We had a lengthy discussion about this past February at the National Convention. Proceed at your own risk. :nono:
> 
> It wouldn't hurt for somebody to send in a letter asking for a clarification to rekindle the subject again :eeps:


 I don't know. I think it might be more fun for Nick to go to Topeka next September, win DS and get protested for the RSMs and have the issue decided on that case. I mean, if that 3600 lb monster could do that well for it to be an issue...well, it just seems to me like it would be a good ole fun time.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

·clyde· said:


> I don't know. I think it might be more fun for Nick to go to Topeka next September, win DS and get protested for the RSMs and have the issue decided on that case. I mean, if that 3600 lb monster could do that well for it to be an issue...well, it just seems to me like it would be a good ole fun time.


 If I won DS in the Barge, I should think that any potential protesters would die of embarassment.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

you'd be surprised, I've seen people get pretty bent out of shape over some fairly meaningless stuff even at local events :tsk:

I'm serious about somebody submitting a letter requesting a clarification on the RSM's, please send to Doug Gill at

[email protected]

thanks

ps: fwiw, I agree with you but am only 1 person in a committee


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> I won't repeat myself again, I'm telling you as an SEB member that my fellow members do not agree with that assessment. We had a lengthy discussion about this past February at the National Convention. Proceed at your own risk. :nono:
> 
> It wouldn't hurt for somebody to send in a letter asking for a clarification to rekindle the subject again :eeps:


So you are saying that one can't change out the rubber in the stock bushings? Which to me appears to be an EXACT quote of what is allowed?

I understand not changing the whole unit to the Turner sold or GC unit. That is NOT legal.

"The mounting hardware shall be of the original type. The use of any shock absorber bushing material, including metal, is permitted. This does not permit the use of an offset shock absorber bushing. The bushing attaching the end of the strut to the body or frame on a strut type suspension is a suspension bushing, not a shock absorber bushing. Suspension bushings, including but not limited to those which carry the weight of the car and determine ride height, may not be replaced with bushings of a different material or dimension."

What part of "*The use of any shock absorber bushing material, including metal, is permitted.*" supports the SEB position?

Not that some ruling haven't been from left field before.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

As per Nick525xiT 5spd's comment, the text clearly states that a bushing attaching the strut to the body is a suspension part on a STRUT type suspension. Why say bushings are free, then interpet that as meaning the bushings aren't free because there are no bushings.

This is why you can't change the mounts on the front of our cars.

Although you could aruge (probably unsuccessfully) that the top SHOCK bushing on a strut type suspension does NOT connect the end of the strut to the body. The mount does that, not the bushing in the mount.

But that is angels on pins. 

And Mark, he was asking ultimate, not what may be more than good enough.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> And Mark, he was asking ultimate, not what may be more than good enough.


oh I understand completely, if you think putting a high pressure monotube shock that has very sensitive low speed valving on an non-ride height adjustable stock E46 chassis that originally came with low gas double-tube shocks is the "ultimate" then your education is not yet complete 

that's the last I'll say about it,

peace


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> I'm serious about somebody submitting a letter requesting a clarification on the RSM's, please send to Doug Gill at
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> thanks


please, somebody just amuse me, ok? :eeps:


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

TeamZ4 said:


> oh I understand completely, if you think putting a high pressure monotube shock that has very sensitive low speed valving on an non-ride height adjustable stock E46 chassis that originally came with low gas double-tube shocks is the "ultimate" then your education is not yet complete
> 
> that's the last I'll say about it,
> 
> peace


You mean a stock suspension doesn't have low speed movements?

And then why the change in the rules to no longer permit remote resevoir shocks and more than two adjustments, if people weren't using them to some advantage?

And BTW the ADvance Design are just double adjustable.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

*Pinecone, question in regards to wheel offsets...*

Since I am wanting to run a non staggered tire setup (with my staggered wheels), would it be better to try and "square" the car up?

For example, my front offset is 47 mm and my rear is 50 mm. Would it be better to max the rear out to 44 mm (-6 mm to stay legal) and then bump my rears down by 3 mm to 44 mm? Having the front and rear offsets the same would seem to square the car up and make it more neutral. Or is it true what they say... "wider is better" and just max the front and rear offsets as far as they will go (-6 mm front and rear)?

What do you guys think?


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

Andy said:


> *Pinecone, question in regards to wheel offsets...*
> 
> Since I am wanting to run a non staggered tire setup (with my staggered wheels), would it be better to try and "square" the car up?
> 
> ...


Andy, I think this is a secondary or tertiary adjustment you could use to achieve desired balance. I don't have a total grasp on tuning with offsets but I think you would need to have your tires, shocks, sways, and alignment all close before you started to fix things with offset. Maybe TZ4, or somebody with some pretty deep understanding on the subject can tell us if there are firm rules about what do with offsets and why.

What I think is that increasing track (decreasing offset) will increase the relative grip of that end of the car. So you might use less offset up front to reduce understeer....might, after you firm up some other set up decisions.

So, get close with the big stuff, and then decide about offsets.


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> oh I understand completely, if you think putting a high pressure monotube shock that has very sensitive low speed valving on an non-ride height adjustable stock E46 chassis that originally came with low gas double-tube shocks is the "ultimate" then your education is not yet complete
> 
> that's the last I'll say about it,
> 
> peace


TZ4,
Here is your chance to spread the love. It seems like you have some deep technical knowledge of suspension components in this class of applications, I'll happy accept any knowledge you want to float our way. My personal take is that the differences in execution of a given shock would overcome the difference between a de Dion and a twin tube low pressure configuration. But most of my racing experience is based on de Dion (single tube high pressure) shocks on road racing motorcyles.

Now, if this is a competitive thing, that you don't want your competitors (obviously not Andy or anbody I would be helping for a couple of years) to gain this knowledge, cool. Racers are obviously under no obligation to help make the real competition any faster.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Andy said:


> *Pinecone, question in regards to wheel offsets...*
> 
> Since I am wanting to run a non staggered tire setup (with my staggered wheels), would it be better to try and "square" the car up?
> 
> ...


That is something you will have to test and tune to how you want it. Just like sway bar settings or tire pressures.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Pinecone said:


> That is something you will have to test and tune to how you want it. Just like sway bar settings or tire pressures.


The reason I ask now, is because if I do decide to order a set of custom forged wheels I want to know what offset to have them make it. So it sounds like I should have them make the wheels with the OEM offset (47/50) that way I can add/remove 5 mm spacers if/when needed. Right? :dunno:

Actually, since the smallest spacer I can find is 5 mm (H&R), I should have the custom wheels built with 1 mm less then stock (46/49), that way I can still add/remove a 5 mm spacer and be within the max legal limits. Right? :dunno:

What do you think?


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

Andy said:


> The reason I ask now, is because if I do decide to order a set of custom forged wheels I want to know what offset to have them make it. So it sounds like I should have them make the wheels with the OEM offset (47/50) that way I can add/remove 5 mm spacers if/when needed. Right? :dunno:
> 
> Actually, since the smallest spacer I can find is 5 mm (H&R), I should have the custom wheels built with 1 mm less then stock (46/49), that way I can still add/remove a 5 mm spacer and be within the max legal limits. Right? :dunno:
> 
> What do you think?


Andy, if you wanted max adjustability, you would buy them with almost 5mm more offset (narrower track) as you can only lessen offset (increase track) with spacers. But until you get remotely close on your setup there's no way to know intuitively what will work best. Probably better to hang on using the wheels you have and getting your other parameters fixed, then deciding on the offset you actually want for custom wheels.

I didn't mention it earlier, but decreasing front offset (increasing track) should make your steering a bit heavier, and make the wheel want to return to center more.


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Or you could buy some cheaper wheels and play with spacers until you get the offsets where you want it, and then order wheels.

This was what we started with. You have to do a bunch of testing and tuning to get the setting where they are best for you on your car. We can't TELL you exactly what settings will be best for you.


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## scottn2retro (Mar 20, 2002)

I want to make sure I understand this. A regular 330 is DS and a 330 ZHP is in BS? Why the 2 class jump?

As more information is found out about what the ZHPs really have (or don't have), is it possible to petition to have the car put in CS?


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## SpaceMonkey (Mar 13, 2002)

scottn2retro said:


> I want to make sure I understand this. A regular 330 is DS and a 330 ZHP is in BS?


Correct. But a modded ZHP would be in DSP.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Are these TC Kline shock mounts legal in the stock class. I originally thought yes... but with all that shock mount / bushing talk I'm not sure now.


Specially formulated Bunt Rubber Mounts

Thanks,
Andy


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

Andy said:


> Are these TC Kline shock mounts legal in the stock class. I originally thought yes... but with all that shock mount / bushing talk I'm not sure now.
> 
> 
> Specially formulated Bunt Rubber Mounts
> ...


Andy, get a rule book and send the board that TZ4 mentioned a letter/email so they can sort the whole issue out. It sounds like its still up in the air. Although, there seems to be clear agreement that replacing the whole mount is always illegal in stock.

Also, why are you selling your 72s? You've already got them so the price couldn't be better. Aren't they a little lighter than our 135Ms and legal in BS? The 172s seem like a very good compromise until you sort through tires, shocks, alignment, sways.

So far it sounds like you're pretty sure of a lot of track time, and 225 Hoosiers, is anything else firm in your mind yet?


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

wrwicky said:


> Andy, get a rule book...


I plan to. Until then I will continue to use the Online Version, which I have read multiple times. However, the shock mount stuff in 13.5 is a bit confusing



wrwicky said:


> ... and send the board that TZ4 mentioned a letter/email so they can sort the whole issue out


Done. I will post their response if/when it comes in.



wrwicky said:


> Also, why are you selling your 72s? You've already got them so the price couldn't be better. Aren't they a little lighter than our 135Ms and legal in BS? The 172s seem like a very good compromise until you sort through tires, shocks, alignment, sways.


I have been talking with Pete over at TC Kline quite a bit this week. It sounds like he will be able to give me a good deal on a set of ultra light ForgeLine wheels. If I'm able to sell my M72s, then I'll go with those, if not I'll probably just use the M72s.



wrwicky said:


> So far it sounds like you're pretty sure of a lot of track time, and 225 Hoosiers, is anything else firm in your mind yet?


I gave Pete (w/ TC Kline) my autocross experience, my goals for next year and my budget. He said he would come back with a recommended list of mods. He also offered to go along with me to the autocross events next year and help me dial in my suspension. I took him up on his offer seeing how he helped Russ Wiles finish 1st, 3 seconds ahead of 2nd place in the Oktoberfest Autocross this year (you can read about it on page 60 of the 12/03 ROUNDEL).

Oh, and in regards to the 225s... I'm honestly still up in the air about that to be honest. I've heard of many guys mounting 245s (and wider) Hoosiers on 8" wheels. Based off my measurements, 245s should be able to fit up under my car with no problem. 225s maybe lighter, but the extra 1/2" of rubber on the ground on all four corners will probably more then make up for it.

I'll be sure to post Pete's list of recommendations when I get them and see what you guys think.


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

Andy said:


> I gave Pete (w/ TC Kline) my autocross experience, my goals for next year and my budget. He said he would come back with a recommended list of mods. He also offered to go along with me to the autocross events next year and help me dial in my suspension. I took him up on his offer seeing how he helped Russ Wiles finish 1st, 3 seconds ahead of 2nd place in the Oktoberfest Autocross this year (you can read about it on page 60 of the 12/03 ROUNDEL).
> 
> I'll be sure to post Pete's list of recommendations when I get them and see what you guys think.


Andy,

That help could be priceless. Good job on bird dogging all of that info.

and 20mm is just over .75". When in doubt more tire is better.


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## John in Houston (Aug 19, 2003)

Andy,

For wheels, you might also want to try Complete Custom Wheels. Lots of national caliber autoxr's run these wheels as well as many Solo I drivers. John can get you a lightweight setup for far less than a set of Forgelines.

On alignment, most run some toe-out up front. This helps with turn-in. Toe-in in the rear helps with rotation. As much negative camber as you can get (legally) front and rear would be beneficial. Most likely you'll end up with stock up front and approx -2* out back for max. Remember that when you change your camber, your toe settings will change also. Increased front track will also help turn-in and reduce understeer.

On the rear shock mounts, Mark (TZ4)... I thought this was supposed to be resolved in the latest FastTrack? I'll admit I have not read it yet (been on the road)... but rumor was that they were going to be legal for 2004 (RSMs like GC / Turner / etc).

Everyone is right on for struts / shocks. Get the best that you can afford. Some of us can't afford triple Motons and live with Koni DAs... but you can still be competitive.

Most of all, get seat time. I'd prefer to become fast on street tires before moving to R-compounds, but R-compounds will be at least 1 second faster...

John.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

John in Houston said:


> Andy,
> 
> For wheels, you might also want to try Complete Custom Wheels. Lots of national caliber autoxr's run these wheels as well as many Solo I drivers. John can get you a lightweight setup for far less than a set of Forgelines.
> 
> ...


Hi John,

Thanks for the advise and also the link to Complete Custom Wheels. I will send them an email and see what they have to offer.

If you are new to the 'fest, allow me to be the first to Welcome you!!

Andy


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

I spoke with Pete at TC Kline yesterday and these are his recommendations for the ultimate E46 auto-x setup. I think his exact words were, "With this setup, you'll be golden!!". 

1. D/A double adjustable shocks & struts from the TCKR Smart Design D/A Coilover System. He said that these shocks will dramatically improve the handling. He also said that going with this setup would allow me to upgrade to the complete D/A Coilover Kit if/when I want with minimal expense. He said the cost would be about $345 a piece (x4) plus a 5% discount on top of that (BMWCCA discount I guess).










2. TCKR Buna Rubber Rear Shock Mounts. The cost is $105 for the pair. I emailed the SEB ([email protected]) to see if these mounts were legal in the stock class. I received an email back stating that they were currently reviewing these mounts and will let me know. Pete told me that the shocks will work better with the new mounts, plus it will make the installation quite a bit easier because everything will fit together nicely. He said that if I later find out that the mounts are not legal that he would be able to modify a set of OEM mounts with washers and such.










3. Ground Control's new "sliding" front sway bar. TC Kline sells RD sways and Pete told me that he hates to turn away business, but he said that Ground Control's new "sliding" sway bars are amazing. He said, if I wanted the best, go with Ground Control for the sways... just don't let them talk you into a set of shocks. :rofl: I told him that I really appreciated his honestly. This prooved to me that he is looking out for my best interest and not his own and that he is actually helping me find the absolute best setup for my car. TC Kline rules!! :thumbup:










4. I think I've pretty much decided to use my set of OEM M72 wheels for next year instead of going with a set of ultra light ForgeLines . Based off what I've gathered so far the performance doesn't out weigh the cost (about $2800)... meaning I won't see that big of a difference in my track times.










5. I have been going back and forth quite a bit between a set of Hoosier A3S03 245/38/18s or the Kumho ECSTA V700 225/40/18s. Right now I'm leaning toward the Hoosiers for the following reasons:

Hoosier Pros:
The Hoosiers provider better grip over the Kumhos (comparing same size tires). And I'm able to get the Hoosiers in 245s compared to the Kumhos, the widest I can get is 225s. The extra width in tire will provide even better grip.

Kumho Pros:
A set of Kumhos will last an entire season. A set of Hoosiers will last about 30 runs, which 5 runs per event, 2 events per month equates to about 3 months (rear tires may last a little longer). Plus the Kumhos are a lot LESS expensive. Kumhos = $190 (heat cycled). Hoosiers = $251 (heat cycled).

















Thoughts / Advise ?


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## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

As far as I understand the Stock class rules, the mounts are NOT legal. The Stock class rules allow the BUSHING to be changed (subject to interpetation as per TZ4), not the mount itself. I know that Ground Control states that theirs are NOT Stock class legal.


I know they were going to visit the shock mount issue for SP classes, but not sure about Stock classes.

If you go with anything with an adjustable spring perch, be prepared to prove that it is in the stock ride height position. They are legal as of 2003 without being welded in the stock position, but if somebody protests you will have to be able to prove, and normally with factory info, that they are set properly. And you have to use the stock springs, no smaller diameter springs.

As for tires, the surface can also help determine which tire to use. I understand that the Hoosiers are much better on concrete, not such a difference on asphualt. But you will go through enough tires to figure out what works best for your area.


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