# Extended Oil Drain Interval Info



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

scottn2retro said:


> *Everyone is talking about mileage intervals for oil changes.
> 
> How about time intervals for cars that only go a few thousand miles per year? :dunno: *


Once per year is correct. BMW will perform the oil service every year as part of the free maintenance.

The deal is the service indicator should NOT be reset, unless the car is expected to make it to the scheduled service within 60 days.

So a very low mileage car could have a LOT of oil changes before Inspection I.


----------



## StevzZ3 (Apr 30, 2002)

That's good info Pineman. Thanks.
Steve H.:thumbup:


----------



## JPinTO (Dec 20, 2001)

Thanks for the info & link. I'll be trying out their service.


----------



## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> *
> This person also doesn't push their car, claiming to rarely do 80 MPH, and only once to 90 or higher.
> 
> *


Sounds like ATYCLB


----------



## Ausgang (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Extended Oil Drain Interval Info*



Pinecone said:


> *Cute. NOT.
> 
> Just trying to put some science into all the opinion out there....
> 
> ...


I agree with the premise, but I have my doubts about the test method and some of the assumptions.

That is, I agree with the premise that scientifically valid data should be used to better understand changing in-service oil properties. I further agree that that data should be used to establish control limits for characteristics which would justify replacement of the oil.

That said, I have many reservations about the apparent simplicity of the conclusions made by the referenced test method.

(1) First, why no mention of Sulpher? Is it not a component of our fuels, and an element OEMs and fuel producers have targeted as detrimental. There has been much focus on reduction of it in fuels. Are there other elements we should be concerned about as well?

(2) What is the test method? Is it an ASTM or SAE recognized method? Is it just one of the numerous test methods used by the petroleum industry? More importantly, what level of precision does the method have if for example someone were to do an R&R study on it. If it's an Optical Emission Spect. (burning) method for example, it is far more sensitive at detecting certain elements moreso than others.

(3) How are the control limits chosen? No matter how impressive the test method itself is, someone has to decide that some numerical value is 'low' or 'high' enough to trigger the need to change oil.

I don't know how much the test costs, but if it's as sophisticated as one would expect it would need to be, the simpler solution would be to simply changed one's oil well before it is 'necessary'.

Thanks for the info by the way. I just needed to point out my doubts in any one method or criteria being universal.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Extended Oil Drain Interval Info*



Ausgang said:


> *I agree with the premise, but I have my doubts about the test method and some of the assumptions.
> 
> That is, I agree with the premise that scientifically valid data should be used to better understand changing in-service oil properties. I further agree that that data should be used to establish control limits for characteristics which would justify replacement of the oil.
> 
> ...


1) Because I didn't post it. The ones I posted were interesting because those were values that went DOWN with use. The complete report is a full page.

2) Not sure which methods they use, but this lab has been around a LONG time (under a different name) and the testing is by recognized methods. Which set of methods are used is not important, AS LONG AS, you only compare results from a single lab. And as long as you trust the lab to do a good job (which I do). BTW this lab got started and still does, mainly aircraft engine oil samples, including turbine engeins.

3) They use other results of other of the same engines. So E46 S54 results are compared against the averages of all S54 engine results. At first they did have some strange numbers, but with more results in, they have removed those out of normal range results, like from engines with high lead that failed shortly thereafter.

The test is under $20 per test if you pay in advance for a number of tests. The TBN test is an extra $10. For those of use with S54 engines, and $9 per L engine oil, the tests make a lot of sense.

For all others, regular oil analysis is good to spot strange trends. An engine oil analyisis can even tell you to change your air filter (high silica).


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Oops. Just re-read your post as I am home with the oil analysis results in hand.

Sulpher is a problem in DIESEL fuels. ANd that is the area where they are trying to drastically reduce it in the pump fuels. Europe has already done so. Since this was a test for a gasoline engine, no sulpher readings. It would probably be done in a diesel engine sample.


I just noticed on their page that they also offer a total particle count. An interesting test for those debating stock versus K&N versus ITG filters.


----------



## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

Pinecome, if you don't mind posting the information for the oil analysis lab I'd greatly appreciate it...I need the name of the lab, address and contact phone number.

I plan on sending in my transmission oil for analysis after 5,000 miles, and the particulate test seems very interesting as well...I can put the stock airbox back into my wife's car and leave the K&N in my car and pull oil after 5,000 miles for test as well. How big of a sample do they need? 1 quart? A test tube full?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## bluer1 (May 30, 2002)

The HACK said:


> *I know...Stuka's the only person that I know that managed a first oil service before 10,000 miles though. :thumbup: *


Without hitting the track, I tried.

I'm past due this week and sitting at ~11k miles.
:eeps:

And I don't have the benefit of sideways-M3-fun
that Stuka has, so I'm probably not nearly as
silly as I could be.

I _drive_ my car, that's what it's for!
:thumbup:


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> *
> Sulpher is a problem in DIESEL fuels. ANd that is the area where they are trying to drastically reduce it in the pump fuels. Europe has already done so. Since this was a test for a gasoline engine, no sulpher readings. It would probably be done in a diesel engine sample.
> *


Actually Sulfur is also an issue in gasoline. It is currently an issue in US diesel fuel, as its concentrations here do not allow the optimal use of the common and effective common-rail high pressure diesel injection systems in European and Japanese diesel passenger cars. This also applies to gasoline direct injection (VAG's FSI, Mitsubishi's GDI, etc.). These require low sulfur levels for similar reasons, which US gasoline (except in certain states like California) does not meet.

What I haven't researched yet is how Cummins' new common-rail system in the Dodge Ram and the direct injection system in the new BMW N73 V12 Valvetronic get around this.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

The HACK said:


> *Pinecome, if you don't mind posting the information for the oil analysis lab I'd greatly appreciate it...I need the name of the lab, address and contact phone number.
> 
> I plan on sending in my transmission oil for analysis after 5,000 miles, and the particulate test seems very interesting as well...I can put the stock airbox back into my wife's car and leave the K&N in my car and pull oil after 5,000 miles for test as well. How big of a sample do they need? 1 quart? A test tube full?
> 
> Thanks in advance. *


Blackstone Labs www.blackstone-labs.com

I don't have a specific contact there. I called and ordered a dozen pre-paid kits. They even gave me a free test to get a sample run of Castrol 10W-60 TWS. If you do your tranny oil, you might want to dcall and ask about them doing a sample of the fresh oil.

The sample bottle is maybe 6 - 8 ounces. I grabbed the sample with a tube through the dipstick. Suck up a tube full, drain it into the container - repeat.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Kaz said:


> *Actually Sulfur is also an issue in gasoline. It is currently an issue in US diesel fuel, as its concentrations here do not allow the optimal use of the common and effective common-rail high pressure diesel injection systems in European and Japanese diesel passenger cars. This also applies to gasoline direct injection (VAG's FSI, Mitsubishi's GDI, etc.). These require low sulfur levels for similar reasons, which US gasoline (except in certain states like California) does not meet.
> 
> What I haven't researched yet is how Cummins' new common-rail system in the Dodge Ram and the direct injection system in the new BMW N73 V12 Valvetronic get around this. *


Why would sulpher be more of a problem in direct injection gasoline engines?

With diesels it has to do with emissions, not only for common rail engines, but all diesel engines.


----------



## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Pinecone said:


> *Why would sulpher be more of a problem in direct injection gasoline engines?
> *


Not sure but I am sure it was the main technical reason (there are economic ones as well) both VAG and Mitsubishi have cited against bringing gasoline DI to the US.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Kaz said:


> *Not sure but I am sure it was the main technical reason (there are economic ones as well) both VAG and Mitsubishi have cited against bringing gasoline DI to the US. *


Interesting.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

OK< I have started a TBN database. If anyone would like to contribute numbers, please email or send me a forum PM with the results of your test. I would like date of test, oil type, car model, total miles, miles on oil at test, and TBN.


----------



## JetBlack330i (Feb 8, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> *
> Based on this additional data point. I will continue to do 1000 - 1500 mile first oil changes on new vehicles. And I will start doing regular oil analysis BETWEEN oil changes to see what is going on. I figure 4,000 - 5,000 miles between oil analysis would be comfortable for me. *


This is all good and interesting and may make financial sense if you had to pay for all your oil changes and were trying to minimize the associated cost.
Given that BMW gives us a free oil changes every 15K miles or so (and the assumption is that we can't trust the indicator), what's the point of scientifically determining that the best oil change point is at 12K, since you'll take a free oil change 3K later anyways?
For me, I'll stick with my routine of taking all free changes from BMW and blindly paying for an intermediate change at 7.5K miles. Even if the test determined that I didn't need to at that point, it can't hurt, right?
Oh, and the very first change is right after burn-in, at 1200 miles, not before.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

JetBlack330i said:


> *This is all good and interesting and may make financial sense if you had to pay for all your oil changes and were trying to minimize the associated cost.
> Given that BMW gives us a free oil changes every 15K miles or so (and the assumption is that we can't trust the indicator), what's the point of scientifically determining that the best oil change point is at 12K, since you'll take a free oil change 3K later anyways?
> For me, I'll stick with my routine of taking all free changes from BMW and blindly paying for an intermediate change at 7.5K miles. Even if the test determined that I didn't need to at that point, it can't hurt, right?
> Oh, and the very first change is right after burn-in, at 1200 miles, not before. *


Because the information is there. And I want to know. 

And at some point in time BMW will no longer be paying for oil changes. So it would nice to know then.

If you don't want to help gather info, then don't.


----------



## Ausgang (Jan 4, 2002)

Pinecone said:


> *Because the information is there. And I want to know.
> 
> And at some point in time BMW will no longer be paying for oil changes. So it would nice to know then.
> 
> If you don't want to help gather info, then don't. *


In the interest of the science behind these tests, I'd be interested in the uncertainty and R&R of the test method(s) used.

If you or someone were willing to submit multiple samples from the same oil drain service at different times over a period of time, I could run a statistical analysis on the test method. (The only other thing we would need for this is the link to a NIST-traceable reference standard.)

Without knowing the precision and bias of the test, the numbers themselves have limited value.

Just a suggestion and offer.


----------



## Pinecone (Apr 3, 2002)

Ausgang said:


> *In the interest of the science behind these tests, I'd be interested in the uncertainty and R&R of the test method(s) used.
> 
> If you or someone were willing to submit multiple samples from the same oil drain service at different times over a period of time, I could run a statistical analysis on the test method. (The only other thing we would need for this is the link to a NIST-traceable reference standard.)
> 
> ...


Actually the lab will probably supply this info. A lot of big operators will want that info. Also required for turbine engine work. Either that, or we can look at the way most of these tests are done. Most of the metals are done with a Atomic Absorbtion flame test.

TBN is likely to be a titration with acid.


----------



## phrider (May 6, 2002)

Since I have an M Roadster with an S54 engine, I thought I ought to give it the Blackstone "blood test."

Fortunately, it was a boring result on potential bearing problems.

But I did have one surprise. I drive my car irregularly, and typically only for short runs in heavy city traffic (surface streets, not freeways) in LA. With only 3318 miles on the oil and 7900 miles on the engine, the lab reported a TBN of 3.5 on the TWS 10W/60 oil. They suggested going 4,500 miles on the next oil change.

So, in stop / start city driving, it looks like the oil tests UNDER 5000 miles for changes. Certainly not 10,000 or 15,000.

Or does someone have another perspective on this?


----------

