# Wall Street Journal Article on BMW's Past, Present and Future



## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

What's most interesting to me is what the other car-makers are up to. I even read, a short time back, how BMW felt it needed to hold the line on pricing with the E90 because of the strong competition out there.

All things considered, I'll definitely give the new three a look in a year or two, but I'll be looking elsewhere too, can't afford not to.

Ed


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## Cosimo (Jan 11, 2005)

*Count me out.*

Quote from Bangle-head at the end was a stunner. We can all go pound sand if we dont like his stuff. What a jerk. I still give it a year or two before BMW finally realizes it's been sold a bill of goods. NEVER desert your loyal customers, especially in pursuit of flighty American rich kids. They forgot that people bought the cars (when they could finally afford 'em) 'cause they were the best damn wheels around. You see Rolex changing its design?


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## MarcusSDCA (Jan 14, 2004)

I wonder if there are cultural differences in people's reaction to the Bangle design? I mean, what if the design is meant to pull in more Buyers in Japan and Germany at the expense of a few Americans that might hate the design? Or vice versa. You can't please everybody and it must be difficult to "get it right" every seven years for the same positive reaction across 3 continents.

Maybe flame surfacing is meant to appeal to the Asian market....the biggest future market for BMW? Who knows.....I'm just babbling.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

Cosimo said:


> ..Quote from Bangle-head at the end was a stunner. We can all go pound sand if we dont like his stuff. ...


 Yes you can... as some of us dig the Bangel design... I am with him!! You can please everyone in life, sometimes some people will fall behind times... judging by the current year result, the BMW BOD will not fire CB anytime soon 



> ...I still give it a year or two before BMW finally realizes it's been sold a bill of goods. ...


 Yeah yeah.... I've heard of the same tune 2 years ago from critics of C.B. and I suspect you'll be singing the same tune 2 years from now while life continues in Bavaria... 



> ...NEVER desert your loyal customers, especially in pursuit of flighty American rich kids. They forgot that people bought the cars (when they could finally afford 'em) 'cause they were the best damn wheels around....


Hummm..... I seem to recall the 2002 loyalist b!tching about the same thing..... In fact, everytime BMW comes out w/ a new bodystyle, you will hear the same $hit. I think they've learned to tune out the noise.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

MARCUS545 said:


> I wonder if there are cultural differences in people's reaction to the Bangle design? I mean, what if the design is meant to pull in more Buyers in Japan and Germany at the expense of a few Americans that might hate the design? Or vice versa. You can't please everybody and it must be difficult to "get it right" every seven years for the same positive reaction across 3 continents.
> 
> Maybe flame surfacing is meant to appeal to the Asian market....the biggest future market for BMW? Who knows.....I'm just babbling.


Funny- I just had a friend from Munich visit me. He has several friends that work at BMW and is a real defender of all things German. We were talking about design in general; he was telling me how he though good design in general was lacking in the US. I brought up the questionable design of the new BMWs. His response (which was kind of funny) was that "the new designs were because an American was in charge, and that they're not doing well in Germany-- they were meant to appeal to Americans". He said that BMW sales in the US are up. I said true, but its mostly due to the Mini and the SUVs, not the 5,7 and z4. So, if the Gemrans don't like the new designs and Americans don't like it, we politely agreed that maybe the new designs were mostly intended for the Asian market (especially China) where they are actually doing well (I think). His final (very German) thoughts on the subject were that "yeah, well BMW sales are up and they are profitable".

Anway, I've also read the same thing in other sources, the Germans/Europeans in general don't like the designs either. Like I said, if they're thinking that China is now going to become their biggest market maybe they are making the right decision. But, I'd be nervous about turnining my back on 2 of the historically largest markets: US and Germany in pursuit of a developing and still unknown market. Or, maybe BMW really did intend to appeal more to US tastes and it backfired.


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## wasib (Nov 18, 2004)

*Everythink is good*

Hey guys just saw you chatting about BMW sales. Why are you so downnbeat?
i think you should take a look at this 

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050111.012/bmw/1.html


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## leshik (Sep 7, 2002)

What a short memory we have. Bangle did design the E46 as well as the Z8 (or was on the team of the designers). Design changes, look at Frank Gerhy. In his early years he was designing normal looking buildings. Look at his designs now. And they are still stunning (although, just like recent crop of BMW's took time for me to grow to love them). 

As far as the sales. Most luxury marquees, especially 7, 5, Z4, MB Sclass and similar are leased not bought. One has to look not at YOY change but, rather Year over 2-3 year change to properly gauge how much new business there was. Those of us that buy cars frequently and change every year are few, just as those that keep their cars for 5+ years.
We all want the new, latest thing.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

robg said:


> Funny- I just had a friend from Munich visit me. He has several friends that work at BMW and is a real defender of all things German. We were talking about design in general; he was telling me how he though good design in general was lacking in the US. I brought up the questionable design of the new BMWs. His response (which was kind of funny) was that "the new designs were because an American was in charge, and that they're not doing well in Germany-- they were meant to appeal to Americans". He said that BMW sales in the US are up. I said true, but its mostly due to the Mini and the SUVs, not the 5,7 and z4. So, if the Gemrans don't like the new designs and Americans don't like it, we politely agreed that maybe the new designs were mostly intended for the Asian market (especially China) where they are actually doing well (I think). His final (very German) thoughts on the subject were that "yeah, well BMW sales are up and they are profitable".
> 
> Anway, I've also read the same thing in other sources, the Germans/Europeans in general don't like the designs either. Like I said, if they're thinking that China is now going to become their biggest market maybe they are making the right decision. But, I'd be nervous about turnining my back on 2 of the historically largest markets: US and Germany in pursuit of a developing and still unknown market. Or, maybe BMW really did intend to appeal more to US tastes and it backfired.


I agree robg; of course this is just speculation...

BMW gives the US market the SUV and Mini and eventually the BMW Mini-van. The new 1, 3, and 5 series are designed with the intention of appealing to the Asia market especially the soon to be booming China market.

Give the world market what it wants, the US loves SUVs and Mini-vans and cute niche cars like the Mini, the new booming Yuppie market in China is looking for that new Luxury car status symbol. The European market sadly seems almost an after thought to BMW these days.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

leshik said:


> What a short memory we have. Bangle did design the E46 as well as the Z8 (or was on the team of the designers).


Henrik Fisker designed the Z8


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## teamdfl (Sep 24, 2002)

Understatement of the 21st century:


> Some of the new technology has glitches.


My service writer told me that he is not looking forward to the arrival of the E90.

Ed


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## mng (Oct 15, 2003)

leshik said:


> What a short memory we have. Bangle did design the E46 as well as the Z8 (or was on the team of the designers).





atyclb said:


> Henrik Fisker designed the Z8


yes. and Bangle did do the E46, but under a tight leash. so they don't count.


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

leshik said:


> Secondly, the marketing strategy outlined in the article is sound. The segments that they talk about are very interesting and, indeed, should work. Something that is out of the realam of understanding of any journalist, even one writing for WSJ, is that strategies are made to be adjusted. When BMW chose the strategy, the path they are on right now, was chosen in late 90's when NONE of the current competitors to BMW were in market. As evident by the article and by certain actions from BMW they are adjusting their strategy to try to compensate for the gap that they are facing right now. (ZHP option package on the E46 3, redesign of iDrive, better designs of 3,5 (possibly)) Other companies, Caddillac, Infiniti, and to a certain extent Audi, put in front of them a single goal -- beat BMW in United States. They have achieved that goal. Now do they have a long term strategy is BMW responds in kind? We shall see.
> 
> Companies play to win -- make the most profit. So far BMW is coming out ahead on the profit front. If they can adjust their US strategy and keep up their profits they will continue to win, and many enthusiasts will continue to whine because little things that only they care about are not being addressed by the mass market corporation.


Technical innaccuracies in the article aside I disagree with your snyopsis.

BMW's reliance on "future predicting" reseach firms led them to this path. Poor management decisions led them to this path that allowed designers and techno geeks ruin their core product.

When BMW chose this strategy virtually ALL of the competitors they face now were in the market space. Cadillac is the only one that really stands out as a new competitor in their segment and it could be argued that they always were. So, they knew what they were up against.

Certainly strategies are adjusted over time. And now that BMW has emptied the chambers on us, it's time to start the adjustment. Unless they refocus now, I dont see how well they do in the mass market competitng against the likes of Toyota, Honda and Nissan from a quality and performance perspective and Mercedes, Porsche, et al regarding status.

What happens when the buzz wears off the Mini like every other reto mobile? When those "mobile middles" or whatever they called them realize the X3 isn't a very good value and feel duped into buy into the "up market" identity. They are right back to Honda and Toyota.
BMW had better refocus on what made the BMW brand what it is today. And that isnt a bunch of oversized cars stuffed with every gee gaw electronic item in the Sharper Image catalog.

This problem isnt unique to BMW. It's happening with a lot of the old venerable brands that were purchased by bigger companies. Saab, Jag, Land Rover are a few examples.

Did BMW strategically market to yuppies in the early to mid 1980's? No. Yuppies bought their product because it was a fun car to drive and different from the Japenese and American cars they grew up on.

BMW built it's reputation with distinctive products that fit niches. Ultimatly leading the market in what they offered. Now they have resorted to chasing the market with relativly overpriced goods of questionalble quality and support. Not an enviable postion to be in.


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## Dude (Jul 3, 2003)

The U.K is the second largest market in Europe for BMW, and here we also think that Bangle is leading the company into a commercial black hole with his hideous sculpted panels and creases that look absolutely appalling.

Sales here of the new E60 5 Series are so slow that cars are being pre registered and being placed on dealers forecourts at considerable reductions off list price, and still not selling. A situation that was unheard of with the old E39, when there was always a several month waiting list.


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

Kaz said:


> I liked seeing some of Panke's admissions. I agree that BMW needed to make changes, specifically in light of greater product parity by its competition (and to a lesser but still significant degree by market forces) but I think its evident that some of the core changes aren't working.
> 
> Something I saw on TV over the weekend was somewhat disturbing (even given its source). In a review of the 645 on Car & Driver TV, it was described as "The Ultimate Isolation Machine." :eeps: That's the label that used to be put on a Lexus...


I haven't driven or seen a 6 up close, but have an interesting account of my first sighting of a 6er while on our Christmas road trip to Colorado.

Somewhere in Kansas City, I spotted a 6 series behind me on the interstate and gaining quickly. I told my wife to watch out for the silver car that was going to pass us, but didn't tell her what it was (and not being a car person she had no clue). She watched closely as the 6er passed by and when it had dissapeared into traffic turned to me and said, "My god, what an UGLY car". I then told her that was the new 6er. She responds, "You're kidding, what happened to BMW making good looking cars. That's too bad because that thing is NASTY"! :rofl:

This from the woman who loves my car as the status symbol


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

The future direction of BMW is very troubling to me. I truly dislike the looks of their new models, don't appreciate all the electronic doo-dads, am perplexed by the quality issues and overall cost of ownership, and dissapointed by the quality of interior materials in their new models.

I plan on hanging on to my E46 for a while to come. When it comes time to move on, I will be hard pressed to buy BMW again. There are many lower priced, more reliable cars out there that I find every bit as fun to drive. My recent test drive of a Subaru Legacy GT Wagon showed me this. That doesn't include more equaly priced cars like the TL or CTS that have recently caught my eye.

I really love the dynamics BMW's offer. Yet at the same time, if I can't stand the apperance and if the cars start to add isolation from the road, I will look elsewhere. Right now, after I park my car in the driveway, I always take one last look over my shoulder. Often when approaching it or other E46's, E39s, and M3's I take a long admiring look. I don't see me doing that with the new generation. It would be more of jump out and throw the car cover over it so I don't have to look. :eeps:


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

Desertnate said:


> Often when approaching it or other E46's, E39s, and M3's I take a long admiring look. I don't see me doing that with the new generation. It would be more of jump out and throw the car cover over it so I don't have to look. :eeps:


This is an excellent point and something I hadn't thought about; I too, give the new BMW's nary a glance, there's nothing about them that warrants a long, admiring look.

I, like you, also still love looking, driving and admiring the design of my E46, and it's been four years.

I think it's a keeper:thumbup:

Ed


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## sunilsf (Sep 22, 2003)

Desertnate said:


> The future direction of BMW is very troubling to me. I truly dislike the looks of their new models, don't appreciate all the electronic doo-dads, am perplexed by the quality issues and overall cost of ownership, and dissapointed by the quality of interior materials in their new models.


I couldn't agree more on each of these points. 
I have a relative that loves technology for the sake of technology... meanwhile, I prefer only when it makes practical sense (e.g., Bluetooth in any vehicle).

Plus, I really do think BMW is using cheaper plastics for the interiors of their newest models.

My best guess is that in five years time, I'll be looking at a Lexus IS350.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

sunilsf said:


> Plus, I really do think BMW is using cheaper plastics for the interiors of their newest models.


I agree 150% with that opinion... :tsk:


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

EdCT said:


> This is an excellent point and something I hadn't thought about; I too, give the new BMW's nary a glance, there's nothing about them that warrants a long, admiring look.
> 
> I, like you, also still love looking, driving and admiring the design of my E46, and it's been four years.
> 
> ...


Me too. I think its one of BMW's best. Others would be 2002, e30, e34, e38.


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

Cosimo said:


> Quote from Bangle-head at the end was a stunner. We can all go pound sand if we dont like his stuff. What a jerk. I still give it a year or two before BMW finally realizes it's been sold a bill of goods. NEVER desert your loyal customers, especially in pursuit of flighty American rich kids. They forgot that people bought the cars (when they could finally afford 'em) 'cause they were the best damn wheels around. You see Rolex changing its design?


I basically agree. Bangle needs to go fock himself! :asshole:


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## Sean (Dec 22, 2001)

mng said:


> yes. and Bangle did do the E46, but under a tight leash. so they don't count.


Actually, he did not pen it himself, but from my understanding he had a large part in the X5 design. :tsk:


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

EdCT said:


> This is an excellent point and something I hadn't thought about; I too, give the new BMW's nary a glance, there's nothing about them that warrants a long, admiring look.
> 
> I, like you, also still love looking, driving and admiring the design of my E46, and it's been four years.
> 
> ...


I like the E46 and the current crop of Mercedes sedans (as well as most other MB vehicles), but something about them is still a little feminine to me. Plus, they're rounder and more bulbous than I'd like, although I think they're beautiful, and just seem a lot bulkier and larger than they actually are.

The designs I like the most of the past 15 or so years are the current and previous gen XJ, W201, W126, and W124, B5 A4, E38, and E39 and E36 to a lesser extent. I think the D2 A8 looked nice as well. Oh, the G35 coupe, S2000, and RX-8 are great as well, but those are in a different subset of cars in my mind.

(OT, but for those who know the Euro B, C, D-platform nomenclature, I'm guessing those are 3, 5, 7-series, respectively. Is there an A-platform, and is that Golf/1-series size?)


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## jetstream23 (Mar 9, 2004)

robg said:


> Funny- I just had a friend from Munich visit me. He has several friends that work at BMW and is a real defender of all things German. We were talking about design in general; he was telling me how he though good design in general was lacking in the US. I brought up the questionable design of the new BMWs. His response (which was kind of funny) was that "the new designs were because an American was in charge, and that they're not doing well in Germany-- they were meant to appeal to Americans". He said that BMW sales in the US are up. I said true, but its mostly due to the Mini and the SUVs, not the 5,7 and z4. So, if the Gemrans don't like the new designs and Americans don't like it, we politely agreed that maybe the new designs were mostly intended for the Asian market (especially China) where they are actually doing well (I think). His final (very German) thoughts on the subject were that "yeah, well BMW sales are up and they are profitable".
> 
> Anway, I've also read the same thing in other sources, the Germans/Europeans in general don't like the designs either. Like I said, if they're thinking that China is now going to become their biggest market maybe they are making the right decision. But, I'd be nervous about turnining my back on 2 of the historically largest markets: US and Germany in pursuit of a developing and still unknown market. Or, maybe BMW really did intend to appeal more to US tastes and it backfired.


Yes, but everything is doing well in China. They have an overheating economy and people are moving from the lower class to the middle and upper class en mass. It's much like the 1950's in the US when each family went out and bought its first TV, its first automobile, etc. I wouldn't really use China as an indicator....the comparatives aren't there year-over-year like in the U.S. or Europe.


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## leshik (Sep 7, 2002)

LmtdSlip said:


> Technical innaccuracies in the article aside I disagree with your snyopsis.
> 
> BMW's reliance on "future predicting" reseach firms led them to this path. Poor management decisions led them to this path that allowed designers and techno geeks ruin their core product.
> 
> ...


Hindsight is always 20/20. *Now* we can say that BMW management made a mistake. Truthfully, I don't. They miscalculated people's desire to change, and believed that Pasadena School of Design (or whatever design school they bought) is representative of desires of US consumer.

At the time, mid-late 90's, BMW was on top of its game. The cars were the standard of the industry, and as a producer of the most desirable product (mind you, i did not say the best), BMW cars were the standard that all other manufacturers were shooting at. BMW had a choice, stay staus quo and create similar products, and sooner or later competitors will catch them, or develop something totally different and take the competition to the next level. 
The latter was the better choice. What we are discussing here is the execution of that choice. Design is subjective. (Disclaimer: I am not comparing Chris Bangle to anyone, just presenting arguments). When impressionists such as Monet, Renoir, etc. were painting, they were considered crazy too, and their paintings were liked by a small number of people. Many people still don't like gothic design, or any of rennaissance art. The point is, what some consider beautiful, others consider ugly. I am willing to bet, that in 5,6,7 years same people that are badmouthing current designs will complain that the current design is a classic, and new BMW designs are crap.

As for technology, it always hurts to be an innovator. With iDrive, yes, 1st implementation was not that great, but its improving, and lo and behold, other manufacturers are copying the design, adding more buttons for distraction (see Audi). And lets face it, how many times on real streets does any one of us need more than 200 hp? HP wars are just a marketing ploy to get Tim Taylor-like american consumers buy the products with "more power!"


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

leshik said:


> *And lets face it, how many times on real streets does any one of us need more than 200 hp?* HP wars are just a marketing ploy to get Tim Taylor-like american consumers buy the products with "more power!"


You were doing so great in your post until this... :tsk:


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## LmtdSlip (May 28, 2003)

leshik said:


> Hindsight is always 20/20. *Now* we can say that BMW management made a mistake. Truthfully, I don't. They miscalculated people's desire to change, and believed that Pasadena School of Design (or whatever design school they bought) is representative of desires of US consumer.
> 
> At the time, mid-late 90's, BMW was on top of its game. The cars were the standard of the industry, and as a producer of the most desirable product (mind you, i did not say the best), BMW cars were the standard that all other manufacturers were shooting at. BMW had a choice, stay staus quo and create similar products, and sooner or later competitors will catch them, or develop something totally different and take the competition to the next level.
> The latter was the better choice. What we are discussing here is the execution of that choice. Design is subjective. (Disclaimer: I am not comparing Chris Bangle to anyone, just presenting arguments). When impressionists such as Monet, Renoir, etc. were painting, they were considered crazy too, and their paintings were liked by a small number of people. Many people still don't like gothic design, or any of rennaissance art. The point is, what some consider beautiful, others consider ugly. I am willing to bet, that in 5,6,7 years same people that are badmouthing current designs will complain that the current design is a classic, and new BMW designs are crap.
> ...


Your not addressing my point or supporting your original argument.
My point is that management took their eye off the ball. Instead of focusing on how to make better cars that are "Driving Machines" rather than luxo cruisers they chose to abandon the very principles and product designs that brought them their success. Instead they chose a path recommended by a marketing research firm. Marketing research is one thing...business/marketing intelegence is another...confuse them at your own peril.

I think they foreshadowed market share erosion by Toyota and to a lesser degree every other high end brand. At that time every euro brand was going after the luxo and near luxo category. I think BMW management felt threatened by Toyota and Mercedes inroads on its traditional turf and made the decision to take the BMW product more mainstream to better compete. Chasing a market very rarely (never?) works. The public very quickly picks up on the fact that your product has changed. And that perception tends starts with the enthusiasts. They can be the canary in the coal mine.


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## leshik (Sep 7, 2002)

LmtdSlip said:


> Your not addressing my point or supporting your original argument.
> My point is that management took their eye off the ball. Instead of focusing on how to make better cars that are "Driving Machines" rather than luxo cruisers they chose to abandon the very principles and product designs that brought them their success. Instead they chose a path recommended by a marketing research firm. Marketing research is one thing...business/marketing intelegence is another...confuse them at your own peril.
> 
> I think they foreshadowed market share erosion by Toyota and to a lesser degree every other high end brand. At that time every euro brand was going after the luxo and near luxo category. I think BMW management felt threatened by Toyota and Mercedes inroads on its traditional turf and made the decision to take the BMW product more mainstream to better compete. Chasing a market very rarely (never?) works. The public very quickly picks up on the fact that your product has changed. And that perception tends starts with the enthusiasts. They can be the canary in the coal mine.


I am precisely addressing your point. You are stating that management took their eye off the ball. Why? Because the current product line is not as successful as you would want it to be? They did their research and they developed strategies that they believed AT THAT TIME will be the winning combination for them in the future (NOW). Yes, they did not predict moves by other manufacturers (could you in 1996-8?). Should they have? Possibly. But its very easy to blame others for making decisions (not necessarily wrong ones) 8 years ago by assuming they should have known all the information that is available today (again, HINDSIGHT is 20/20).

As for the going mass market, there is only so much a company can do in a niche market. Do you see brand erosion? I don't, yet. It may show up in the future, but so far BMW has been successful in moving MINI downmarket and RR upmarket, although Land Rover by enlarge was a failure.

All companies chase markets. Its very hard and expensive to create new ones. How you do it is another matter.


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

*bigger=better?*

Why do the new designs always have to evolve to be bigger? Can't we have technology advancements and refinements or whatever, but keep the car the same size? :tsk:

Did their marketing research come back with complaints that the 3er is too small? I would find this difficult to believe. If I wanted a bigger car, I would have looked to a 5.


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## Technic (Jun 24, 2002)

Rob325_in_AZ said:


> Why do the new designs always have to evolve to be bigger? Can't we have technology advancements and refinements or whatever, but keep the car the same size? :tsk:
> 
> Did their marketing research come back with complaints that the 3er is too small? I would find this difficult to believe. *If I wanted a bigger car, I would have looked to a 5.*


In my opinion, the issue is _value for the money_, or at least the impression of it. The problem is that a nice E60 530i is reaching $55,000 and everybody else in the 3 Series class is moving towards bigger size. The CTS and the G35 are already bigger than the 3 Series, and with comparable equipment they are cheaper to buy. So I do not think that BMW have any other choice than going bigger too... they have been increasing the size on each generation anyways so this should be more of the same but with a twist, because they are becoming too expensive too quick.


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## sunilsf (Sep 22, 2003)

speaking of i-drive... now that it will be a stand-alone option (on the 1 and 3-series), I wonder how many people will opt-out of this feature. More importantly, I wonder what BMW will read into these results.


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## Jalli (Jan 10, 2005)

Stop complaing about I drive... the only mistake BMW made was in assuming that people who buy their cars would be smart enough to figure it out. My dad is 52 years old and he cannot even check his email, but after drving a seven series for 1 hour he was able to figure out the i-drive ( without a manual ). If you can't figure the car out buy something "simpler" like a Chrysler.

As for the new designs, a lot of people do like them and are willing to spend lots of money to get them.The design is not really the problem, it is just that BMW is not emphasizing performance. THey have spruced up whats outside and neglected whats under the hood. The new 3 series engine indicates that they have finally realized this and are still dedicated to performance. 

BMW cars continue to hold more resale value than any other cars, and if you think they have quality issues let me tell you a little story.

My dad was drving a brand new S500 for a while ( he is a dealer) , when all kinds of crazy warnings appeared and the car started driving like ****. He took the car to out local MB dealer and after going through three ECU's they decided to blame it on him...


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## sunilsf (Sep 22, 2003)

Jalli said:


> Stop complaing about I drive... the only mistake BMW made was in assuming that people who buy their cars would be smart enough to figure it out. My dad is 52 years old and he cannot even check his email, but after drving a seven series for 1 hour he was able to figure out the i-drive ( without a manual ). If you can't figure the car out buy something "simpler" like a Chrysler.


Before this turns into an "i-Drive" thread, let me just say that I was trying to point out that not everyone wants this... and that will become evident once they start making this optional.

Secondly, I don't think mfrs should blame the users for not "being smart enough to figure it out". It could be that this is a simple device, but it should also be intuitive. Most of the feedback I've heard on i-Drive has been along the lines of "I've figured it out in x minutes", but I've never heard anyone say "this is awesome and definitely worth it".


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## Desertnate (Mar 11, 2002)

sunilsf said:


> speaking of i-drive... now that it will be a stand-alone option (on the 1 and 3-series), I wonder how many people will opt-out of this feature. More importantly, I wonder what BMW will read into these results.


If you get the NAV, you may not have a choice but to suffer with I-Drive too. From what I understand they will be bundled together. :thumbdwn:


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

sunilsf said:


> Before this turns into an "i-Drive" thread, let me just say that I was trying to point out that not everyone wants this... and that will become evident once they start making this optional.
> 
> Secondly, I don't think mfrs should blame the users for not "being smart enough to figure it out". It could be that this is a simple device, but it should also be intuitive. Most of the feedback I've heard on i-Drive has been along the lines of "I've figured it out in x minutes", but I've never heard anyone say "this is awesome and definitely worth it".


Some do say they like it, but the overwhelming majority CAN figure it out, they just think it's not the UI they would prefer.


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Jalli said:


> Stop complaing about I drive... the only mistake BMW made was in assuming that people who buy their cars would be smart enough to figure it out. My dad is 52 years old and he cannot even check his email, but after drving a seven series for 1 hour he was able to figure out the i-drive ( without a manual ). If you can't figure the car out buy something "simpler" like a Chrysler.
> 
> As for the new designs, a lot of people do like them and are willing to spend lots of money to get them.The design is not really the problem, it is just that BMW is not emphasizing performance. THey have spruced up whats outside and neglected whats under the hood. The new 3 series engine indicates that they have finally realized this and are still dedicated to performance.
> 
> ...


I'm sure anyone with half a brain can figure iDrive out. Some people like me think it unnecessarily complicates driving a car, as long as it remains only a option BMW can dink around all they what with iDrive, when it becomes standard than I have a problem with it.

BMW admits they have a problem with the reliablity of their cars, and IMO a MB is probably one of the most unreliable cars made today.


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## LVR (Apr 21, 2004)

This is really a quite interesting article.....

BMW have made "an ambitious gamble" that required them to spend enormous amounts of money, and predict the market in the future. They can also modify it.

IMHO, they should have read the writing on the wall and toned down the 5 series when they saw the market reaction to the 7. Just like they are doing in the 3 series.

The new models then become a logical progression that don't cut loose your loyal base.

We have had a similar debacle with having design direction being influenced by an executive that has other market experience.

Ford (Aust) introduced a new AU Falcon (large Rear drive sedan) that had distinct Taurus lines, in a larger body. It was roundly rejected by the market and the press who prefer a rounder 'european' style car. Ford responded (after massive losses) with the BA Falcon that is better looking, better performing and more in sinc with the market. The exterior changes are restricted to the nose and tail, both areas that the 5 and 7 cop the flak for.

Bangle had input with the X5? 

Great, but the styling is more 'european' brawn than flamed. Similar to what I have seen with the 3 series due out.

As to their research, I didn't know I was an 'upper liberal'. I would NEVER have bought a Saab or a (gasp) Volvo. heheheheh


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## Rob325_in_AZ (Oct 22, 2004)

Technic said:


> In my opinion, the issue is _value for the money_, or at least the impression of it. The problem is that a nice E60 530i is reaching $55,000 and everybody else in the 3 Series class is moving towards bigger size. The CTS and the G35 are already bigger than the 3 Series, and with comparable equipment they are cheaper to buy. So I do not think that BMW have any other choice than going bigger too... they have been increasing the size on each generation anyways so this should be more of the same but with a twist, because they are becoming too expensive too quick.


So the answer is yes- we apparently _do_ think that bigger is better, even in what began as a sport sedan. Because what you're saying is that in order to compete with G35, which is bigger, the 3-series must get bigger too.

On BMWUSA's site, they now have "the evolution of the 3", complete with stats, from 1970's to today. You can watch the cars gain a few hundred pounds each generation. I do realize that today's cars are better in many ways, I just wish we could put the brakes on the size increases.


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## GJR (Jan 6, 2003)

Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I just came back from my local BMW dealer, where a brand new 645ci was sitting in the showroom. Let me preface this by saying that I have grown to like the new BMW direction as far as styling goes.

That being said, I would never buy a BMW which costs $70k+ and had an interior which feels as low-rent as that one did. My 5-year-old 540iT feels like a Bentley inside by comparison. These people need to get a clue, because it doesn't look like they have one at this point. The car looked stunning to me from the outside, but that interior has to go. And the X3 and E60 5er have the same problem (E60 to a lesser extent).

The price point is so high these days with BMWs...they could at least make them FEEL like premium-priced cars on the inside. And I-drive doesn't need a George Jetson-looking dashboard... a better solution is a compromise...limit I-drive functions a bit, add a FEW buttons to the dash and make it a little more of a traditional, upscale-looking environment, like Audi has.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

leshik said:


> And lets face it, how many times on real streets does any one of us need more than 200 hp? HP wars are just a marketing ploy to get Tim Taylor-like american consumers buy the products with "more power!"


I know I do just fine with 189

:angel:


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## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

*BMW 633CSI and other stuff*

In 1980 I bought a 633CSI and believe me there was nothing even close, everyone's jaw dropped when they saw it. I had been driving a Mercedes and the BMW blew it away in every department. Last month I bought a 325i and like the car but I would rather have more HP and a lot less gingerbread. One of my axioms is you can't sell luxury cars that have problems. Because of all the gingerbread I get the feeling reading these boards BMW has reliability problems which marques like Lexus and Infinity don't have. The other problem BMW has, and this is very serious, is the weakness of the U.S. dollar vs. the Euro. Here is the bottom line "You can't out Wal-Mart Wal-Mart and you can't out Lexus Lexus and if you try YOU WILL BE BROKE. Therefore I believe BMW should focus on building reliable, fun to drive, performance machines, something like an "Ultimate Driving Machine". :thumbup:


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## Jalli (Jan 10, 2005)

mclaren said:


> In 1980 I bought a 633CSI and believe me there was nothing even close, everyone's jaw dropped when they saw it. I had been driving a Mercedes and the BMW blew it away in every department. Last month I bought a 325i and like the car but I would rather have more HP and a lot less gingerbread. One of my axioms is you can't sell luxury cars that have problems. Because of all the gingerbread I get the feeling reading these boards BMW has reliability problems which marques like Lexus and Infinity don't have. The other problem BMW has, and this is very serious, is the weakness of the U.S. dollar vs. the Euro. Here is the bottom line "You can't out Wal-Mart Wal-Mart and you can't out Lexus Lexus and if you try YOU WILL BE BROKE. Therefore I believe BMW should focus on building reliable, fun to drive, performance machines, something like an "Ultimate Driving Machine". :thumbup:


Not really a problem that the dollar is weak .... although they do take a hit in their profits , remeber that they save money this way too. They have a plant here so it costs them less for labor, which is where a lot of the cost in manufacturing is. Oh and BTW ... trust me Lexus has plenty of problems, its just that in general their dealers are better at smoothing things over. Maybe because they are a comaparatively new company their dealers do not act so arrogantly :dunno: IF BMW would just fix their dealers and pull a few franchises, I think things would get better fast.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

GJR said:


> Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I just came back from my local BMW dealer, where a brand new 645ci was sitting in the showroom. Let me preface this by saying that I have grown to like the new BMW direction as far as styling goes.
> 
> That being said, I would never buy a BMW which costs $70k+ and had an interior which feels as low-rent as that one did. My 5-year-old 540iT feels like a Bentley inside by comparison. These people need to get a clue, because it doesn't look like they have one at this point. The car looked stunning to me from the outside, but that interior has to go. And the X3 and E60 5er have the same problem (E60 to a lesser extent).
> 
> The price point is so high these days with BMWs...they could at least make them FEEL like premium-priced cars on the inside. And I-drive doesn't need a George Jetson-looking dashboard... a better solution is a compromise...limit I-drive functions a bit, add a FEW buttons to the dash and make it a little more of a traditional, upscale-looking environment, like Audi has.


Funny-- I had a similare reaction to the 6 series interior the other day while waiting for my car to be services. I couldn't believe how cheap it looked and felt. Although, I actually think the 6 has the best interior of the Bangled models-- atleast the center stack is slightly canted toward the driver and the lines on the door sort of flow into the dash. I then sat in an e46, and if I didn't know anything I would've thought it was the more expensive model. I really couldn't bring myslef to spend 50-80k and get such a cheap interior. I made that comment to the salesperson and he almost acknowledged it saying "well-- nothing is as well made as it used to be (shrug)".


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Rob325_in_AZ said:


> So the answer is yes- we apparently _do_ think that bigger is better, even in what began as a sport sedan. Because what you're saying is that in order to compete with G35, which is bigger, the 3-series must get bigger too.
> 
> On BMWUSA's site, they now have "the evolution of the 3", complete with stats, from 1970's to today. You can watch the cars gain a few hundred pounds each generation. I do realize that today's cars are better in many ways, I just wish we could put the brakes on the size increases.


To be fair the E30 was a *bit* lighter than the E21, esp the iron-block six-pot E21s which were dynamic lump hammers. And the average weight gain from E46 to E90 is zero. Whilst I don't welcome the ever-widening dimensions (since London's streets don't get any wider every seven years) the extra luggage space and rear room is welcome. Though I cannot see how a 3er can get any bigger than the new car, as it would then be a 5er in all but name.


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## pierre moise (Aug 28, 2010)

*x5 stalled while cruising at 70 mph*

After a long extensive troubleshooting, came to find out that the fuel pump along with the filter was the culprit.


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## EdCT (Mar 14, 2002)

pierre moise said:


> After a long extensive troubleshooting, came to find out that the fuel pump along with the filter was the culprit.


Why did you post this in a five year old unrelated thread :dunno:


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## Hu99 (Aug 29, 2010)

Tanning machine said:


> do Rolls buyers care that BMW is behind the operation?


Are you serious? If you were in the market for a $400,000+ car would feel better if it were backed by 34 blokes at the English factory or BMW AG?


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## roadrider57 (Nov 26, 2016)

*Lets be honest . What happened to BMW.*

Why hasn't anyone mention, or noticed all the issues and breakdowns that are common place if you own a BMW. It dosnt really matter what model . I dont think BMW has made a car in the past 10 years, that can drive 1000 miles without some type of breakdown. I dont know of any BMW's that any of my friends own that didn't have a tranny problem. A bad sensor can disable your car completely with know hint of anything wrong. It fact its possible theres nothing wrong with your car at all. BMW dealer's will always tell you to replace any part that cause your car to break down. How many times have we done that only to get the car back and it still has the same problem. That's because the service manager waits to hear what the mechanic says is needed to fix your car. what you dont know is the mechanic make 10% commission on all parts installed, along with his hourly wage.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Some people probably should have Toyotas or some other Black & Decker appliance. 

My first sports car was an AH 100-4 that I worked on all week to drive on the weekend. Later I had a new 911 that was perfectly reliable but that required expensive frequent maintenance for peak performance.


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