# Interesting thoughts on late model BMW longevity



## uber CS (Apr 22, 2007)

Picked this up from another BMW forum where someone wrote to Bimmer mag "Tech Q&A" and got a response:
*
Initial "e-mail"*


> Hi,
> 
> Reading in the Tech Q&A section in issue number 69, there was an individual that expressed concern over purchasing a pre-owned E46 330i. In response you stated that the reason why BMW initiated the no cost warranty program was to sell more cars and save money, and that these cars will not be able to run on original parts for over 200,000 mls. going by the BMW's recommended maintenance schedule. Reading this, and being a die hard BMW enthusiast I pondered the thought, and came to a a conclusion that perhaps you can elaborate on.
> First, BMW puts it's cars through rigorous testing to ensure that they're as durable as possible and will last the duration of miles tested(which is more than any of these cars will probably ever see). I'm more than sure the recommended scheduled maintenance intervals were derived from observation and conclusion in testing during the development trials, and I'd think that the engineers would never recommend servicing intervals that the car couldn't handle in the long run(oil changes included). The maintenance schedule for NA market cars is more than likely no different from BMW cars sold elsewhere in the world, so I cannot imagine the free maintenance program as a cost saving measure for BMWNA. Could it be possible that maybe perhaps that BMW has engineered it's latest generation of cars to a standard we have yet to comprehend? Automotive technology has advanced to a whole another time and place, farther than it was ten, even five years ago.
> ...


*
Reply:*



> Another element of BMW's "lifetime fill" oils and eliminated maintenance is that governments in the U.S. and Europe are pressuring car manufacturers to produce less liquid and solid waste during maintenance.
> 
> But there is really no question that free scheduled maintenance and the demise of maintenance in general was originally the result of marketing -- BMW basically said so back in the 1990s when free scheduled maintenance debuted. It was part of a marketing effort to counter the widely (and correctly) held perception that BMWs are high-maintenance cars. In fact, they still are -- they just don't get maintained anymore unless the owner takes control of the situation. Anything can be maintenance free -- just don't maintain it. Then it when it fails, buy a new one. In fact, this is a fairly universal concept in our society.
> 
> ...


----------



## uber CS (Apr 22, 2007)

191 views and no comments. I'll say...


----------



## 2nynbak (Jan 28, 2007)

Good stuff. I have been thinking that these cars are beginning to suffer increasingly expensive depreciation due to the high cost of keeping them on the road in the 100k+ milage. My sense is that BMW is now building cars designed for free repairs for the original owner for the first few years. The CPO second owner is also generally warranted and is probably going to unload the car before 100k so they are OK as well. But I think subsequent owners are unwilling to pay much of anything 6 or 7 years form original as these components mentioned above are either failing or are feared to be very expensive to maintain. I have a near perfect 9 year old 7 series, which I purchased new, with just over 100k and it has generated nearly no interest as a "for sale" used car. I think the perceived high cost of component repairs is killing the long-term value of BMWs.


----------



## Snaxster (Jun 30, 2007)

Hello. I think what you've described is cars that are effectively disposable. We don't know whether BMW designed them as such, but it seems possible to me.

Like the respondent quoted by the OP, I plan to buy maintenance for my E90 beyond the free scheduled service baked into its original price. 

I think this is a decent gamble, since 

+ I will the have the best chance of the car not suffering failure related to the maintained systems

+ I may be able to keep and use the car longer (all other things being equal)

+ when it is finally time to sell the car, it may be easier to find a buyer

+ if I can't sell the car after all, at least I'll be able to give it away with the belief that it won't be a money pit for the new owner.

Regards,

Snaxster


----------



## akhbhaat (Apr 29, 2003)

I don't have much to say other than that I agree.

Plastic differential components in the E90? Yeah, as if I needed _another_ reason to avoid buying one.


----------



## Lost Horizon (Sep 10, 2006)

akhbhaat said:


> Plastic differential components in the E90? Yeah, as if I needed _another_ reason to avoid buying one.


"Plastic" is a pretty general condemnation.. do you know what it really is? if it's FRP, it may well have a better cycle life than metal, and be as strong if not stronger on an equivalent weight/moment basis ....

You'd be surprised where designers put some of these composites... including flying machines..


----------



## akhbhaat (Apr 29, 2003)

Lost Horizon said:


> "Plastic" is a pretty general condemnation.. do you know what it really is? if it's FRP, it may well have a better cycle life than metal, and be as strong if not stronger on an equivalent weight/moment basis ....


The 3 series is cheaper today than it ever has been - and accordingly offers much more in terms of features and "value" (once former prices are adjusted for inflation). Either BMW was raking in absolutely enormous margins on the older cars (though they certainly weren't slim) or they're cutting costs in every way possible in order to remain competitive while still raking in the profits despite a weak dollar. Given the fact that they're a business whose sole real purpose is to generate returns for investors (largely through the sale of _new_ cars...), I'll leave it to you to guess which is more likely.

I'm well familiar with composite materials - which are far more exotic than regular plastics - and I've never seen them used in significant quantities on a production car aside from expensive niche models designed for racing applications. That's because they're _expensive_, even today. No, I've taken apart enough of these things apart to have seen the degradation in parts quality with my own eyes. Ask _anybody_ who has done regular work on an E30 (for example) if they think the quality of peripheral components in one of the newer cars can match the old ones. I have yet to talk to somebody who does - never mind what I think. A lot of this started with the E36, which is a notorious example of corporate cost cutting. Tell me - do you think BMW used plastic pulleys (tied in with a braided steel cable) in my E46's window regulators to save weight or because they were more durable than alloy equivalents - or because they were cheaper?

Furthermore, it's not as simple as a particular component having a "longer service life" or being stronger on a equivalent weight/moment basis - certain materials do not work well with others, or in certain applications.



> You'd be surprised where designers put some of these composites... including flying machines..


Actually, no - I wouldn't. I'm a pilot.

Cost is less of an issue and weight is much more of an issue in aviation. That's why composites have found wide spread acceptance in that industry - but I don't see the same thing happening in the automotive industry any time soon. Think the typical consumer is going to pay the markup to keep cars within a reasonable weight range? Judging by how little of an impact the ballooning curb weight of many of BMW's recent efforts has had on sales, I'd say no.

In any case, I made up my mind on the matter long before reading that bit - it's not a deal breaker for me. Simply more fuel on the fire.


----------



## milobloom242 (Dec 28, 2004)

akhbhaat said:


> The 3 series is cheaper today than it ever has been - and accordingly offers much more in terms of features and "value" (once former prices are adjusted for inflation). Either BMW was raking in absolutely enormous margins on the older cars (though they certainly weren't slim) or they're cutting costs in every way possible in order to remain competitive while still raking in the profits despite a weak dollar. Given the fact that they're a business whose sole real purpose is to generate returns for investors (largely through the sale of _new_ cars...), I'll leave it to you to guess which is more likely.


Aren't BMW margins second only to Porsche (excluding more exotic even smaller volume mfg's)?

Cost cutting will be relentless as Infinity and Lexus continue to invade BMW, Daimler and Audi turf aggressively.


----------



## DCJAX (May 21, 2007)

Design and synthetic fluids only go so far, dirt and impurities build up without regard to your oil being Wal Mart's best or Mobil 1. If I plan on keeping this car past 100k, I'll make sure to change the fluids are more "normal" intervals, even at cost to myself.


----------



## uber CS (Apr 22, 2007)

As an interesting piece of information: I read something a while back in an interview done by Audiworld w/ AoA's president, and he said that Audi spends more money per car to use the highest quality components for construction.

Seems that BMW cares more about selling as many cars as they possibly can to make more money and increase sales figures at the expense of making durable, quality vehicles. I assure you you'll be seeing a lot more old W204 C's around in 12 years than E90's, MB spent five years testing that car(and if you've driven it you can feel it, and see it).


----------



## rama_e (Apr 24, 2007)

It's kinda scary. I think the electronic stuff on my 5-series will break more often than the mechanic part of it will.
I've only owned my car for 10 months now and the i-drive,TPM, bluetooth and steering wheel setting have caused numerous trip to the shop already. I don't know if I can keep the car when the warranty is over. 
Don't get me wrong but the car is great and I really love it.


----------



## uber CS (Apr 22, 2007)

I've done more thinking, and Mike Miller surely isn't the end all when it comes to BMW history/servicing.


----------



## 50372 (May 24, 2006)

Cars used to be built to run as long as possible. This applies especially to old school Mercedes and Saabs, many of them are still seeing service. In particular, if you go to the less developed parts of the world they are clogged with old Mercedes of up to 40 year old.

But modern manufacture and merchandiing changed that. The new term is planned obsolesence -- the idea is that the car's shelf life is predetermined. While it has always been true that car manufacturers push new versions every year and then new generations every 5-7 years, these days its about cost, profitability and recyclability. BMW has stated that many of their parts can be recycled. 

Japanese invasion of the lux market also changed things. Lexus and Infiniti has made luxury cars for cheap (whether they are good as cars is another debate), and in the early 90s the Germans has learned the hard way the consumers would run from them to Lexus or Infiniti and Acura if they can get a better deal. For example, the early 90s E-class coupes and convertibles are much more expensive in real world terms than their successor, the CLK-class. In the old days, when you buy a BMW or a Mercedes, all you get is 4 wheels, seats, and the drivetrain. Everything else, including the radio and air conditioning, is optional. While BMWs these days are still FAR from being fully equibbed, they have to throw in many safety and comfort amenities while keeping prices down and percieved quality high. (CD player, cruise control, airbags, the alphabet soup of safety features) Mercedes in particularly suffered: in order to add more standard equipment and keep the cost down, they cost cut to the point that their cars are no longer special. Owners complained about the high rate of maintanence and the cheapness of the interiors, forcing MB to scramble back to their drawing boards to find ways to bring the percieved luxury back. 

So when you look at BMWs and MBs today, remember they are not made for running beyond a certain period. Its the price we pay for sacrificing longevity for high levels of standrd equipment and low cost.


----------



## wolfen (Jul 2, 2007)

Absolutely correct. I would say that the tail end of BMW quality was the E39. Especially the early years of that model. From 99 and up it went down hill fast. I will not own a BMW beyond this model range. Or perhaps i should shift my thinking and stop thinking of cars as heirlooms.


----------



## woozhp (Aug 16, 2007)

*Uber Nada*



uber CS said:


> I've done more thinking, and Mike Miller surely isn't the end all when it comes to BMW history/servicing.


 Please tell us who your nominee would be. Seems like the posters here pretty much see it Mike's way. Stop whining and go get yourself one of those "lifetime fills".


----------



## woozhp (Aug 16, 2007)

*E39 was a beauty!*



wolfen said:


> Absolutely correct. I would say that the tail end of BMW quality was the E39. Especially the early years of that model. From 99 and up it went down hill fast. I will not own a BMW beyond this model range. Or perhaps i should shift my thinking and stop thinking of cars as heirlooms.


 "I will not own a BMW beyond this model range" As a 3 series owner I have a different cutoff. 2006, That's when they began deleting the oil dipstick. Can you imagine? Removing the only 100% reliable instrument on the car. It not only tells you your oil level, but you can visually inspect it's condition. When I compained about this to my salesman he said, "Hey, Mercedes started ending dipsticks 6yrs ago" like I wold love the idea then. Won't be ordering that '08 coupe.


----------



## akhbhaat (Apr 29, 2003)

woozhp said:


> "I will not own a BMW beyond this model range" As a 3 series owner I have a different cutoff. 2006, That's when they began deleting the oil dipstick. Can you imagine? Removing the only 100% reliable instrument on the car. It not only tells you your oil level, but you can visually inspect it's condition. When I compained about this to my salesman he said, "Hey, Mercedes started ending dipsticks 6yrs ago" like I wold love the idea then. Won't be ordering that '08 coupe.


Well, you may have noticed that he conveniently placed the cutoff shortly after the production year of his own car. Shocking! Anybody who thinks a 97 E39 is any better built than an 03 E39 is a fool. It's probably the opposite, if anything. The real changes occur during redesigns.


----------



## dbtheo (Apr 24, 2006)

*From my own personal experience*

I had (but recently sold) a 2000 323i. I followed only the scheduled maintenence programs, never doing an oil change sooner than the car indicated (in some cases as long as 18k miles). When I sold my car it had 230k miles on it. Some of you (akhbhaat) know that I did do an engine swap in the car, so I can't fully claim the full 200+. But I did not do the swap until 156k miles, and ONLY did for more performance. Went from a 2.5l to a 3.0l. The engine was running perfectly, and actually it had since been installed in an e30, and has roughly another 30k on it. As for the 323, it is still being used as a daily driver by the new owner. I'm a believer:dunno:


----------



## crowz (Oct 28, 2006)

dbtheo said:


> I had (but recently sold) a 2000 323i. I followed only the scheduled maintenence programs, never doing an oil change sooner than the car indicated (in some cases as long as 18k miles). When I sold my car it had 230k miles on it. Some of you (akhbhaat) know that I did do an engine swap in the car, so I can't fully claim the full 200+. But I did not do the swap until 156k miles, and ONLY did for more performance. Went from a 2.5l to a 3.0l. The engine was running perfectly, and actually it had since been installed in an e30, and has roughly another 30k on it. As for the 323, it is still being used as a daily driver by the new owner. I'm a believer:dunno:


Pushing twards 250k here on the original motor and automatic trans in my 323i. Another believer


----------



## jusmills (Nov 18, 2005)

> "Plastic" is a pretty general condemnation.. do you know what it really is? if it's FRP, it may well have a better cycle life than metal, and be as strong if not stronger on an equivalent weight/moment basis ....
> 
> You'd be surprised where designers put some of these composites... including flying machines..


Composites are good, however to say that this particular composite, fiber-glass reinforced plastic, has a better cycle life than metal, I'd think that you are sadly mistaken. Given most composites will yield to heat/friction much faster than a metal, unless that materials was specifically designed to withstand the rigors of testing, I'd say that akbhaat is right.


----------



## akhbhaat (Apr 29, 2003)

dbtheo said:


> I had (but recently sold) a 2000 323i. I followed only the scheduled maintenence programs, never doing an oil change sooner than the car indicated (in some cases as long as 18k miles). When I sold my car it had 230k miles on it. Some of you (akhbhaat) know that I did do an engine swap in the car, so I can't fully claim the full 200+. But I did not do the swap until 156k miles, and ONLY did for more performance. Went from a 2.5l to a 3.0l. The engine was running perfectly, and actually it had since been installed in an e30, and has roughly another 30k on it. As for the 323, it is still being used as a daily driver by the new owner. I'm a believer:dunno:


Ah, sorry to hear the 323 is no longer with you.  Why did you do it? I've been looking for excuses to rid myself of mine for years, and I frequently end up keeping it and buying a different weekend car instead.


----------



## dbtheo (Apr 24, 2006)

akhbhaat said:


> Ah, sorry to hear the 323 is no longer with you.  Why did you do it? I've been looking for excuses to rid myself of mine for years, and I frequently end up keeping it and buying a different weekend car instead.


Well, the power steering pump went, as did the ac within a week of each other. The kicker was someone hitting it, totally trashed the frot fender and headlamp. Sooo.... looking at my options, I could spend roughly $5-6k to repair and fix it, or since I am a ca now, I saw I could lease a car for 2 years for the same money. We recently had a 2nd child, getting a new house etc, etc... well you see how that goes. So now I have an e90 328i, nice car, but not as fun. I miss my e46 But I sold it to an enthusiast, who has since restored it, and fully enjoys it.


----------



## akhbhaat (Apr 29, 2003)

dbtheo said:


> Well, the power steering pump went, as did the ac within a week of each other. The kicker was someone hitting it, totally trashed the frot fender and headlamp. Sooo.... looking at my options, I could spend roughly $5-6k to repair and fix it, or since I am a ca now, I saw I could lease a car for 2 years for the same money. We recently had a 2nd child, getting a new house etc, etc... well you see how that goes. So now I have an e90 328i, nice car, but not as fun. I miss my e46 But I sold it to an enthusiast, who has since restored it, and fully enjoys it.


Yeah, that's probably what it would take for me to dump mine. As is, it only has 80k miles, so at this rate I can see it holding out with minimal repairs for at least another two or three years. That's a phenomenal lease rate; I don't blame you.

We'll see what the US-spec 1 series brings to the table.

I have a feeling I'll also miss my E46, regardless of what ultimately replaces it.


----------



## uber CS (Apr 22, 2007)

Like I've said before, I think a lot of the old school gear-heads are afraid to adapt to change. Since I made the initial post I've talked to a couple of BMW SA's, one of them mentioned going for some sort of training course recently, he protested the instructor that said modern engines could run on longer oil change intervals with no damage in the long run because of modern construction methods. He showed him and engine that had ran 25k with no oil change from start to finish. Oil drained the SA told me he was shocked and is now a "believer". In addition he said he had a friend that owns a MINI Cooper w/ 115k, oil changes done every 10k and the motor runs fine, oil normal. Times have changed, now we've gotta catch up. Unfortunately it seems that the modern world is driven by fear and paranoia, but that's a whole-nother discussion.


----------



## dbtheo (Apr 24, 2006)

akhbhaat said:


> That's a phenomenal lease rate; I don't blame you.
> 
> We'll see what the US-spec 1 series brings to the table.
> 
> I have a feeling I'll also miss my E46, regardless of what ultimately replaces it.


The rate is a bonus of being a ca, I am pretty phyched about the 1 as well. But more than likely gonna pick up an 06' M3 comp package ('lagos blue)


----------



## Titanium330 (Dec 30, 2006)

uber CS said:


> Like I've said before, I think a lot of the old school gear-heads are afraid to adapt to change. Since I made the initial post I've talked to a couple of BMW SA's, one of them mentioned going for some sort of training course recently, he protested the instructor that said modern engines could run on longer oil change intervals with no damage in the long run because of modern construction methods. He showed him and engine that had ran 25k with no oil change from start to finish. Oil drained the SA told me he was shocked and is now a "believer". In addition he said he had a friend that owns a MINI Cooper w/ 115k, oil changes done every 10k and the motor runs fine, oil normal. Times have changed, now we've gotta catch up. Unfortunately it seems that the modern world is driven by fear and paranoia, but that's a whole-nother discussion.


So are you saying you're now a believer also, in that the longer service intervals won't diminish the longevity of the engine and drive train?


----------



## uber CS (Apr 22, 2007)

Titanium330 said:


> So are you saying you're now a believer also, in that the longer service intervals won't diminish the longevity of the engine and drive train?


No one knows for sure, but having heard of others doing 10k oil changes from the beginning and now having upwards of 100k mls on their cars, it sounds like a safe bet to me. :thumbup: When I get my 1er or 3er coupe/sedan I'll be doing the 10k (and no, I don't lease cars, I'll be in it for the long run).


----------



## Klamalama (Oct 6, 2007)

uber CS said:


> No one knows for sure, but having heard of others doing 10k oil changes from the beginning and now having upwards of 100k mls on their cars, it sounds like a safe bet to me. :thumbup: When I get my 1er or 3er coupe/sedan I'll be doing the 10k (and no, I don't lease cars, I'll be in it for the long run).


My beater is an Acura CLS 3.2 6-spd. Since about 90k miles I've been using synthetic with 15k mile oil changes. The car just passed 150k and still runs great. It needs a quart at about 10k miles between changes.


----------

