# Automotive News reports the return of the 4Dr M3



## sp330i (Dec 26, 2001)

I can't remember if they stated in 2006 or 2007.


----------



## Ridgeway (Jun 25, 2004)

can't see how it would be '06 as I'd be surprised to even see the coupe debut before '07 & I'd find it hard to believe the sedan would appear before or even @ the same time as the coupe...


I wonder if it will hurt M5 sales @ all. In that the price of both cars continues to increase(quite a bit from the e36 m3/4 days), that perhaps more will opt for a 4 dr m3 over a much more $ m5(assuming the m3 starts to approach e39 prices).


----------



## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

Does anyone have a subscribtion to Automotive News and can they post the article.


----------



## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Ridgeway said:


> I wonder if it will hurt M5 sales @ all.


IMHO it will hurt 330i sales only. 2008 will be the earliest based on the nominal 2 years for the M edition after a model change.


----------



## e36M3r (Oct 19, 2004)

I think Ridgeway has a point, do/would they ever release a sedan before the coupe?


----------



## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

e36M3r said:


> I think Ridgeway has a point, do/would they ever release a sedan before the coupe?


BMW is doing a lot of new things these days.

My question is, will the E90 M cars have a wide-body? And if so, will they fit in one car lane?


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

If I see it confirmed by BMW I will be one happy monkey. The E90 looks big and ugly but I won't care...I just care how it drives. Please oh please oh please. 

Now what to get in the interim between giving up my ZHP in May 06 and getting my mitts on an M3 4door in 08? Hmmmm. Could always drive the Mazda for 2 more years. Blech.


----------



## e36M3r (Oct 19, 2004)

I do care actually. I have absolutely no interest in an M5 or M6. Those cars are just to big and heavy. M3s are pushing the limits now. I'm starting to think M2 if there ever is one.



blueguydotcom said:


> If I see it confirmed by BMW I will be one happy monkey. The E90 looks big and ugly but I won't care...I just care how it drives. Please oh please oh please.
> 
> Now what to get in the interim between giving up my ZHP in May 06 and getting my mitts on an M3 4door in 08? Hmmmm. Could always drive the Mazda for 2 more years. Blech.


----------



## dawgbone (Nov 19, 2004)

What's the deal with a 4 door M3??? Are there that many people who want these things..For the few short years that they were produced, there sure is alot of these things around without owners...If I do a local search, I'll find one coupe, in which I'm looking for, and a handful of 4 doors..It made sense to me that there wasn't a 4 door e46 m3, because BMW knew they wasted money on the production of it..Now they would turn around and make the mistake again.. :thumbdwn:


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

dawgbone said:


> What's the deal with a 4 door M3??? Are there that many people who want these things..For the few short years that they were produced, there sure is alot of these things around without owners...If I do a local search, I'll find one coupe, in which I'm looking for, and a handful of 4 doors..It made sense to me that there wasn't a 4 door e46 m3, because BMW knew they wasted money on the production of it..Now they would turn around and make the mistake again.. :thumbdwn:


Because the fake American "M3" sedan can be had with a slushie. 

It never sold well in .de, the primary market of Bay Em Vay. And all of you who wants BMW to cater to the American market, go buy a frigging Caddy. :thumbdwn: German cars are great because they are designed with .de as the primary focus, no cupholder, no couch like ride, steering wheel that actually steers, and brakes that actually work. :thumbup:

It will be a sad day when BMW starts designing their cars with the U.S. as the primary design parameter.


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

e36M3r said:


> I do care actually. I have absolutely no interest in an M5 or M6. Those cars are just to big and heavy. M3s are pushing the limits now. I'm starting to think M2 if there ever is one.


I agree. An M2 would rule. Small, super quick, agile, ah yum.


----------



## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Stuka said:


> It will be a sad day when BMW starts designing their cars with the U.S. as the primary design parameter.


It already has IMO. :thumbdwn:


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

dawgbone said:


> What's the deal with a 4 door M3??? Are there that many people who want these things..For the few short years that they were produced, there sure is alot of these things around without owners...If I do a local search, I'll find one coupe, in which I'm looking for, and a handful of 4 doors..It made sense to me that there wasn't a 4 door e46 m3, because BMW knew they wasted money on the production of it..Now they would turn around and make the mistake again.. :thumbdwn:


Not sure what you're talking about as last I read the 4 door m3 made up 50% of the US sales when it was available.

I'll tell you why I don't want a coupe:

1. 2 doors = impractical for me and my life. My friends would have to do that dorky seat up, struggle out thing. More imortantly if I dropped anything that went into the back, it'd be in a blackhole. I don't have the flexibility physically to get into the back of a 3 series coupe.

2. Coupes = long doors = very difficult for me to get in and out of as my knees do not bend more than 90 degrees.

3. Coupes = heavy doors, especially considering BMW doesn't have useful detents on any of their doors, so they swing back at you.

4. If the current model follows suit, coupes will have frameless glass. Frameless glass means - finger prints on the windows as I grab the top of the door frame to assist myself out of the car, also means the mechanism will break eventually, extra electronics and the frameless door glass creates extra annoying sound at speed.

5. Coupes equal b pillar that's too far back. I like the b pilar at the mid point of the car. Structurally it makes more sense.


----------



## dawgbone (Nov 19, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Not sure what you're talking about as last I read the 4 door m3 made up 50% of the US sales when it was available.
> 
> I'll tell you why I don't want a coupe:
> 
> ...


Wow..If you're grabbing the top of the window to get out, then obviously a M sedan won't play in your favor either(same ride height)..The only reason why my glass has finger prints, is because my car is black...And I do it to shut the door with two fingers at the bottom of the glass where it's strong..just to not get prints on the paint...
And being that your knees don't bend over 90 degrees, means that you either have a disability or you're quite old..In which that you would have a point...It would be a selling market for the sedan...The older crowd, that do not want to bend, reach, or distort their body to get into and out of a car.
Do a local search...you'll see tons of sedans(in S.D.) with low mileage, and at the same price, if not lower, than a coupe of the same year with higher mileage.. :dunno: And even if 50% of M3 sales were sedans, how many of them have owners, compared to coupes???
This is where the M5 was derived from..It has the power to propel the 4 doors, and bucket rear seats...It has a very close, power to weight ratio as the M3 coupe. I say screw the M2 idea, and make the M3 what it was once before and supposed to be...It was probably some senior marketing queer at BMW that thought up this crap about a M3 sedan..Just to give BMW a name in that class of car..


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

dawgbone said:


> What's the deal with a 4 door M3??? Are there that many people who want these things..For the few short years that they were produced, there sure is alot of these things around without owners...If I do a local search, I'll find one coupe, in which I'm looking for, and a handful of 4 doors..It made sense to me that there wasn't a 4 door e46 m3, because BMW knew they wasted money on the production of it..Now they would turn around and make the mistake again.. :thumbdwn:


You are remarkably uninformed. In the model years that it was offered, the M3 sedan sold as well, if not better than its coupe counterpart in E36 form. Enthusiasts as well as the broader market decried the fact that it was not offered in the E46. In response BMW created the ZHP package, which was a less than satisfying compromise. The M3 is a niche vehicle. A sedan would at least double the size of its market, and effectively crush the competition from Audi and Mercedes.

The fact that you see more sedans in the used market than the coupes speaks more about the used car market than the car itself. A $20k E36 M3 appeals to a specific buyer. Namely, one who is comparing it to a (new) Mustang GT, or WRX or SRT-4, or like vehicle. Clearly that (younger, typically male) buyer would prefer a coupe to a sedan. When these cars were new, they were $40k cars, and appealed to young professionals who could afford the performance, but who needed a modicum of practicality to satisfy the needs of a growing family. That is why it sold so well. Ironically the E36 M3 sedan handled better than the coupe, due mostly to the greater degree of torsionally rigidity allowed by a B-pillar closer to the midpoint of the wheelbase.

And the production of the E36 M3 sedan was a remarkably affordable proposition. Unlike the E46 M3, which shares virtually none of the mechanical, electrical or chassis components with its non-M counterparts, the E36 needed comparatively few modifications to transform it from a 328i to an M3. And the premium was close to $10k.

If BMW designed the E90 with an M version in mind (as seems to be the case), it would not only be a cost-effective business decision, it will be a commercial and critical success.


----------



## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

philippek said:


> You are remarkably uninformed. In the model years that it was offered, the M3 sedan sold as well, if not better than its coupe counterpart in E36 form. Enthusiasts as well as the broader market decried the fact that it was not offered in the E46. In response BMW created the ZHP package, which was a less than satisfying compromise. The M3 is a niche vehicle. A sedan would at least double the size of its market, and effectively crush the competition from Audi and Mercedes.
> 
> The fact that you see more sedans in the used market than the coupes speaks more about the used car market than the car itself. A $20k E36 M3 appeals to a specific buyer. Namely, one who is comparing it to a (new) Mustang GT, or WRX or SRT-4, or like vehicle. Clearly that (younger, typically male) buyer would prefer a coupe to a sedan. When these cars were new, they were $40k cars, and appealed to young professionals who could afford the performance, but who needed a modicum of practicality to satisfy the needs of a growing family. That is why it sold so well. Ironically the E36 M3 sedan handled better than the coupe, due mostly to the greater degree of torsionally rigidity allowed by a B-pillar closer to the midpoint of the wheelbase.
> 
> ...


Damn, well put. :thumbup:


----------



## dawgbone (Nov 19, 2004)

philippek said:


> You are remarkably uninformed. In the model years that it was offered, the M3 sedan sold as well, if not better than its coupe counterpart in E36 form. Enthusiasts as well as the broader market decried the fact that it was not offered in the E46. In response BMW created the ZHP package, which was a less than satisfying compromise. The M3 is a niche vehicle. A sedan would at least double the size of its market, and effectively crush the competition from Audi and Mercedes.
> 
> The fact that you see more sedans in the used market than the coupes speaks more about the used car market than the car itself. A $20k E36 M3 appeals to a specific buyer. Namely, one who is comparing it to a (new) Mustang GT, or WRX or SRT-4, or like vehicle. Clearly that (younger, typically male) buyer would prefer a coupe to a sedan. When these cars were new, they were $40k cars, and appealed to young professionals who could afford the performance, but who needed a modicum of practicality to satisfy the needs of a growing family. That is why it sold so well. Ironically the E36 M3 sedan handled better than the coupe, due mostly to the greater degree of torsionally rigidity allowed by a B-pillar closer to the midpoint of the wheelbase.
> 
> ...


I absolutely got nothing from your observation...First and foremost, nothing was said about comparing to a Mustang, or a WRX in which, if you would compare performance, would be a bit frightening for a M3 in the sedan class ...
Secondly, I don't see buying an M3 as being practical for a family..Why spend the extra money for an M, when you could have easily bought a 325, and put the other several grand towards something a little more practical, like a college tuition for your children and whatnot..I don't see the stiffer suspension, commonly a 5 spd, and a bigger/badder motor as being practical for a growing family...
You mentioned crushing the competition of Audi and MB..Just as I said, it was probably some senior marketing guy that came up with the idea to compete in that class(then)..Now look at BMW and their M's...They are decades behind MB..MB will beat BMW in every go around, in every class...Just because of ^%$ like the sedan..well..and of course Bangle too..Which bring to mind looks..Do I need to even say anything about looks..(e90 M5/e90 3series)...I am young, and I do prefer the coupe..I think BMW should have stuck with what they believed in when it comes to M..
So why is the used car market so damn populated with sedans? Noone liked them? Why such low mileage? Why exactly did they not make a e46 sedan?


----------



## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

dawgbone said:


> I absolutely got nothing from your observation...First and foremost, nothing was said about comparing to a Mustang, or a WRX in which, if you would compare performance, would be a bit frightening for a M3 in the sedan class ...
> Secondly, I don't see buying an M3 as being practical for a family..Why spend the extra money for an M, when you could have easily bought a 325, and put the other several grand towards something a little more practical, like a college tuition for your children and whatnot..I don't see the stiffer suspension, commonly a 5 spd, and a bigger/badder motor as being practical for a growing family...
> You mentioned crushing the competition of Audi and MB..Just as I said, it was probably some senior marketing guy that came up with the idea to compete in that class(then)..Now look at BMW and their M's...They are decades behind MB..MB will beat BMW in every go around, in every class...Just because of ^%$ like the sedan..well..and of course Bangle too..Which bring to mind looks..Do I need to even say anything about looks..(e90 M5/e90 3series)...I am young, and I do prefer the coupe..I think BMW should have stuck with what they believed in when it comes to M..
> So why is the used car market so damn populated with sedans? Noone liked them? Why such low mileage? Why exactly did they not make a e46 sedan?




I would buy a 4 door M3. I am a professional with a family, and a 4D M3 would be great for me. I have money for my son's college education, so no problem there. I used to have an MB but now I have a wanna-be M3 also known as a 330 with the marketing package. I sold the MB due to poor reliability. My bimmer has been fault free. Sure, data point of one, but it was my car. I like the looks of the E90, but I have a great car with a lot of life in it and it is fine for me.

This brings to mind the old story of the two bulls sitting on the hill over looking the cows.

Young bull - "HEY! Lets run over there and screw some of those cows!!!"

Old bull - "No, son. Lets walk over, and screw them all."


----------



## dawgbone (Nov 19, 2004)

wingspan said:


> This brings to mind the old story of the two bulls sitting on the hill over looking the cows.
> 
> Young bull - "HEY! Lets run over there and screw some of those cows!!!"
> 
> Old bull - "No, son. Lets walk over, and screw them all."


Hey.... funny story,...But kinda backwards...Wouldn't the old bull be too pooped to handle all that...I heard the ending to that one...I think it ended in blood shed, when the mama cow came in and shot the papa bull....


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

dawgbone said:


> I absolutely got nothing from your observation


I'm not surprised.



dawgbone said:


> I don't see buying an M3 as being practical for a family..Why spend the extra money for an M, when you could have easily bought a 325, and put the other several grand towards something a little more practical, like a college tuition for your children and whatnot..I don't see the stiffer suspension, commonly a 5 spd, and a bigger/badder motor as being practical for a growing family...


Husband wants a sports car. Wife wants 4 doors. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.



dawgbone said:


> Now look at BMW and their M's...They are decades behind MB..MB will beat BMW in every go around, in every class


Pass the hashpipe, Ringo.



dawgbone said:


> I am young


That is plainly evident.



dawgbone said:


> So why is the used car market so damn populated with sedans? Noone liked them? Why such low mileage?


Because they were pampered and loved and taken care of by enthusiasts. Now everyone who wants to buy a cheap M3 is young and wants to mod them tastelessly and of course wants a coupe. These tragic youth don't understand that the sedan actually handles better.



dawgbone said:


> Why exactly did they not make a e46 sedan?


Because it would have to have been a competely different car, like the E46 M3. It would not have been cost-effective. Now they've built the E90 with an M version in mind, and it will be very profitable and quite popular.


----------



## e36M3r (Oct 19, 2004)

They do, but the sedans were the first to cease production... just like the e46 sedans are now. Coupes and Cabs to follow... once the standard line goes down, the shells available for M cars are done with pretty quickly.



graat said:


> I didn't know that. You'd think they'd make a few extra sedan chassis for the overlap year before they retooled.


----------



## tsbrown (Apr 25, 2003)

JPinTO said:


> All this discussion about sedan M3 vs coupe M3 and which is the "real" M3 is irrelevent when BMW see's fit to build the 500 lb overweight, structurally diminished M3 Cab. THat's the true abomination.


True...especially the E36 M3 cab with auto. What were they thinking :yikes:  ?!?!?! Have they done the same with the E46?

To clarify, I'm not in the camp that says the E30 is the "real" M3. I love them all, but a sedan is better for me at this point in my life.


----------



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

blueguydotcom said:


> If I see it confirmed by BMW I will be one happy monkey. The E90 looks big and ugly but I won't care...I just care how it drives. Please oh please oh please.


Have you seen it in person ? You'll be really surprised. The front of the car is sitting (looking) much lower than the E46. I'm not very happy with the taillights, but with this accessory, it might be tolerable.


----------



## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Have you seen it in person ? You'll be really surprised. The front of the car is sitting (looking) much lower than the E46. I'm not very happy with the taillights, but with this accessory, it might be tolerable.


A black 320d at this drive event I went to had those - it looked quite sharp, for a design that's a bit blunt .

Photos manage to bring across the best bits of the front of the E90, but not the rear. The design still isn't that inspiring - it's pretty heavy-looking, and could be any make of car really - but the darker lenses help with the dark paint and take some of the mass away.

I agree with Alex; the front is low, sharp and clean - although it might be a bit overstyled forsome. And, for the moment at least, the overhang is still nice and short.


----------



## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> Have you seen it in person ? You'll be really surprised. The front of the car is sitting (looking) much lower than the E46. I'm not very happy with the taillights, but with this accessory, it might be tolerable.


I've yet to see an e90 in person. But, I recall the first pics I saw of an e46 sedan - and loved it. Whe I saw one in person I feel madly in love.

Still it's how it drives that matters most to me. I wouldn't have bought a 325i no matter how attractive I found it. Didn't like the car at all. So looks are the least important thing to me when shoppng.


----------



## dawgbone (Nov 19, 2004)

tsbrown said:


> Dawgbone...it's clear you are enthusiastic and passionate about your M3 and it's history/legacy. That's great :thumbup: . It also appears some small bit of that enthusiasm is fueled by some mis-information on the history of the original M3 :dunno: . Since we're all here to learn more about and enjoy our beloved Bimmers, let me point you to a couple of resources on the M cars.
> 
> First is the online M Registry, www.bmwmregistry.com in the FAQ section for the E30 M3. Another is Jeremy Walton's book "Unbeatable Bmw: Eighty Years of Engineering and Motorsport Success". In both, you will find that the E30 M3 was _never_ handbuilt. Only the E28 M5, E34 M5 and E24 M6 were. M3's were always mass-produced out of necessity, originally to meet the Group A homologation requirements. This doesn't make them any less desirable for most people. Many so-called enthusiasts consider the E30 the "real" M3 and everything else (including your E46 M3) "the mass produced sales gimmick" (to use your words).
> 
> As for 4 door E36 M3s, BMW sold them in Europe and South Africa for over 2 1/2 years before bringing them to the US. True the US bought 2/3 of the total 12k sedans ever produced and did so in only 2 years on the market, but the Europeans liked them too and had them first. Does that make the Euros and BMW less of enthusiasts?


I never really said anything about performance of a sedan vs. coupe in my original post..Others who posted in reply, thought that was what I was getting at..
M3's weren't massed produced until, a couple years after they were born and then slapped with the homologation requirements .. in which at that time, they also started to arrive in the U.S. It originally was Motorsports and Motorsport only, not economics..But then came the Cab in which were only M3's hand built from then on...The E30 motor was maticulously hand built, ran, torn down and throughly inspected in first productions..And is where I used the term "hand built"..The "real" original M3 was never offered in sedan form..Obviously despite my likings and my thoughts, they are a highly saught after vehicle...Not my tastes is all..


----------



## SleepRM3 (Sep 10, 2004)

*What the???*

I came here looking for E90 M3/4 discussion??

BTW, I love my E36 M3/4--never liked the E36 M3 Coupes, but I do like the Coupe's "Vader" seats LOL 

March Road and Track didn't include the current E46 M3 in their best all around sports car comparo. They cited the E46 M3 chassis being too closely related to the E46 sedan's?

Go figure?


----------



## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

SleepRM3 said:


> March Road and Track didn't include the current E46 M3 in their best all around sports car comparo. They cited the E46 M3 chassis being too closely related to the E46 sedan's?
> 
> Go figure?


They also say that the Z4 "strictly adheres to every one of our conditions". The little sketch they have at the front of the article includes the elements of "swoopy styling, 2 seats (some 2+2s qualify), and top optional". I think it's understandable that they would include the Z4 in a sport car comparison where the majority of the cars are two seat convertibles. However, since they had two Porsche entries including a 997 Carrera S coupe, I think it would have been fair to also include an M3.


----------



## mwette (Sep 16, 2002)

from "Heard on the Strasse", Roundel March 2005:


> Apparently BMW M will build a four-door sedan version of the new V8-powered E90 M3. The last time such a model was offered was nearly ten years ago with the four-door M3 -- which turned out to be the best-selling M3 ever. There's no word yet on an introduction date.


----------



## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

mwette said:


> from "Heard on the Strasse", Roundel March 2005:Apparently BMW M will build a four-door sedan version of the new V8-powered E90 M3. The last time such a model was offered was nearly ten years ago with the four-door M3 -- *which turned out to be the best-selling M3 ever.*


I remember reading this in Roundel and thinking it didn't sound right. Was the E36 M3/4 really the best selling M3 ever? I thought they were kind of rare.


----------



## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

Some quick research regarding E36 M3/4 sales...

http://www.bcw3design.com/m3/e46_m3.htm



> Update on the new E46 M3...
> 
> The following are quotes taken from an article about future BMW 3-series models in the 13/98 (June 13th) issue of German magazine "Auto Zeitung"...
> 
> The M3 starts as a coupe. A 4-door sedan - according to the current information - will not be available anymore, since it's part in the total sales was under 10 percent.


If anything, Roundel must have been talking about US sales.


----------



## philippek (Jul 31, 2003)

PhilH said:


> Quote:
> Update on the new E46 M3...
> 
> The following are quotes taken from an article about future BMW 3-series models in the 13/98 (June 13th) issue of German magazine "Auto Zeitung"...
> ...


"Under 10 percent" still sounds like a sales success to me (if they're talking about TOTAL 3 series sales).

One would expect about 50-60% of sales to be for the entry level model (318/325). About 20-30% should be for the mid-level model (328), and 10-20% should be for the top-of-the-line (M3). Given the fact that the M3 was a cost-effective upgrade in E36 form (for BMW), there was a lot of gravy in those cars.

If, however, they're saying M3/4 sales were less than 10% of ///M sales, then I would agree it was lukewarm, at best. But my recollection is that they sold much better than that.


----------



## dawgbone (Nov 19, 2004)

philippek said:


> "Under 10 percent" still sounds like a sales success to me (if they're talking about TOTAL 3 series sales).
> 
> If, however, they're saying M3/4 sales were less than 10% of ///M sales, then I would agree it was lukewarm, at best. But my recollection is that they sold much better than that.


The linked article was talking about M...
Personally, I like the idea of a M touring ...But a 5er..


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

PhilH said:


> Some quick research regarding E36 M3/4 sales...
> 
> http://www.bcw3design.com/m3/e46_m3.htm
> 
> If anything, Roundel must have been talking about US sales.


Yes, U.S. sales, which I hope will never be the design focus of BMWAG. :tsk:

I want a German car designed for German driving conditions, not a German company trying to design a car that they think the average 'mericans would want. :thumbdwn:

And cupholders be damned. :violent:


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

mwette said:


> from "Heard on the Strasse", Roundel March 2005:


They don't know what they are talking about. It was the best selling M3 in the U.S. BECAUSE YOU COULD GET IT IN AUTOMATIC. 

So when people wanted a fast 3 series, yet aren't coordinated enough to drive a stick shift, voila, they get the M3/4 slush-o-tronic. :rofl:


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2001)

Stuka said:


> They don't know what they are talking about. It was the best selling M3 in the U.S. BECAUSE YOU COULD GET IT IN AUTOMATIC.
> 
> So when people wanted a fast 3 series, yet aren't coordinated enough to drive a stick shift, voila, they get the M3/4 slush-o-tronic. :rofl:


Wasn't your first E36 M3 an auto? Or am I thinking of somebody else?


----------



## Stuka (Jul 17, 2002)

Bruce said:


> Wasn't your first E36 M3 an auto? Or am I thinking of somebody else?


Guilty as charged, and it was an expensive lesson. :yikes:

At least I redeemed myself by getting rid of it after 10 months and replacing it with one with a proper 5 speed. 

If the M3/4 did not come with a slush-o-tronic, I doubt that it would have sold half as well. :dunno:


----------

