# Diesel engine oil



## shikbas (Mar 12, 2011)

Hello
Trying to buy oil for 535d,I see different brands around,what are your recommendations please?
thanks


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

shikbas said:


> Hello
> Trying to buy oil for 535d,I see different brands around,what are your recommendations please? thanks


BMW Long Life LL-4 compliant. Brand doesn't matter.


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## shikbas (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

BMW has a specific oil that replaced LL04 in the diesel engines (LL12): https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-210891-bmw-0w30-diesel-oil/ but most ignore this and still use 5W30 LL04 out of habit.

Correction: the LL12 is only for the 4-cylinder diesel single turbo cars: http://bmwwidget.ca/pdf/2015_BMWOil_Brochure_EN.pdf

5W30 LL04 is your safest bet for the 2014 535d.

PL


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## TheBusDriver (Jan 23, 2018)

BMW Twin Power Turbo, BMW Longlife-12 FE, SAE 0W-30, 1000 ml
The low ash, fuel-saving oil for modern BMW engines. BMW TwinPower Turbo Longlife 12 FE SAE 0W-30 is proven to offer diesel engine fuel savings of up to 1.5% in the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC) compared with BMW Longlife-01 products. CO2 emissions are also, therefore, reduced. Innovative additive technology, which significantly reduces levels of ash-forming substances, also protects the diesel particulate filter from impurities (low-SAPS formula). Additionally, this synthetic technology-based oil improves starting in cold temperatures and protects from corrosion and deposits to keep the engine in a cleaner condition.
Suitable only for authorised BMW diesel engines from 2014 model year (all B37 three-cylinder engines, four-cylinder engines from 2014 model year and six-cylinder engines from 2013 model year) with max one turbocharger. More information available on request.

Here's the link: https://www.bmw.ca/en/topics/offers...rbo-bmw-longlife-12-fe-sae-0w-30-1000-ml.html


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

TheBusDriver said:


> BMW Twin Power Turbo, BMW Longlife-12 FE, SAE 0W-30, 1000 ml
> 
> The low ash, fuel-saving oil for modern BMW engines. BMW TwinPower Turbo Longlife 12 FE SAE 0W-30 is proven to offer diesel engine fuel savings of up to 1.5% in the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC) compared with BMW Longlife-01 products. CO2 emissions are also, therefore, reduced. Innovative additive technology, which significantly reduces levels of ash-forming substances, also protects the diesel particulate filter from impurities (low-SAPS formula). Additionally, this synthetic technology-based oil improves starting in cold temperatures and protects from corrosion and deposits to keep the engine in a cleaner condition.
> 
> ...


I would not put LL12 FE in my engine even if someone paid me.

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## n00bkiller944 (May 21, 2018)

edycol said:


> I would not put LL12 FE in my engine even if someone paid me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why is that?


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

n00bkiller944 said:


> Why is that?





TheBusDriver said:


> Suitable only for authorised BMW diesel engines from 2014 model year (all B37 three-cylinder engines, four-cylinder engines from 2014 model year and six-cylinder engines from 2013 model year) with max one turbocharger.


Because his engine has two turbochargers, more than "with max one turbocharger"?


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

n00bkiller944 said:


> Why is that?


 Because LL12FE is fuel efficient oil in attempt to address issues around excessive city driving patterns among owners in the US. Oil has low HTHS of 3.1cp. In Europe those engines are still using LL04 due to higher HTHS of minimum 3.5cp. By the way HTHS is most important number when it comes to protecting turbo. 
LL12 will warm up faster and in city driving patterns provide lower consumption. 
But it will not provide same protection as LL04 when pushing car or especially when towing.

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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Doug Huffman said:


> Because his engine has two turbochargers, more than "with max one turbocharger"?


I would not put anything FE in my cars period. BMW is trying to circumvent city driving issues with lighter oils. LL04 is still used in Europe in new engines too.

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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

edycol said:


> I would not put anything FE in my cars period. BMW is trying to circumvent city driving issues with lighter oils. LL04 is still used in Europe in new engines too.


I appreciate your apparent expertise. You must *never use jargon abbreviations* when addressing non-peers. Just as I can not expect to be understood were I to use jargon.

I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Doug Huffman said:


> I appreciate your apparent expertise. You must *never use jargon abbreviations* when addressing non-peers. Just as I can not expect to be understood were I to use jargon.
> 
> I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.


What are jargon abbreviations? FE?

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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

edycol said:


> Because LL12FE is fuel efficient oil in attempt to address issues around excessive city driving patterns among owners in the US. Oil has low HTHS of 3.1cp. In Europe those engines are still using LL04 due to higher HTHS of minimum 3.5cp. By the way HTHS is most important number when it comes to protecting turbo.
> LL12 will warm up faster and in city driving patterns provide lower consumption.
> But it will not provide same protection as LL04 when pushing car or especially when towing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Meaningless due to abbreviations/acronyms and lack of data/scientific information/explanation.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> Meaningless due to abbreviations/acronyms and lack of data/scientific information/explanation.


There are a lot of explanations, on all forums about oils, HTHS, SAPS etc. including data. There is thing called Google, it might help you.

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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

edycol said:


> There are a lot of explanations, on all forums about oils, HTHS, SAPS etc. including data. There is thing called Google, it might help you.


Sorry, I think you could do better than that

PL


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## TheBusDriver (Jan 23, 2018)

I always get a kick out of "forum geniuses" who somehow know far more than the BMW engineers who design/test/build our cars.

My 2018 540d calls for LLFE12. Its right there in the manual. That's the oil I'll use. It's also the oil BMW recommends for all 6 cylinder single turbo diesel cars in North America since 2013.


(And no, my car won't be used for pushing(?) or towing) :thumbup:


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

TheBusDriver said:


> I always get a kick out of "forum geniuses" who somehow know far more than the BMW engineers who design/test/build our cars.
> 
> My 2018 540d calls for LLFE12. Its right there in the manual. That's the oil I'll use. It's also the oil BMW recommends for all 6 cylinder single turbo diesel cars in North America since 2013.
> 
> (And no, my car won't be used for pushing(?) or towing) :thumbup:


Yes.

Interestingly, I've had service at two dealers now, both used LL04 even after I told them about what BMW recommends. I live in a hotter climate so maybe that is in their logic, but a BMW rep came for a BMW CCA meeting and told us about LLFE12 etc. and of course was confused that the dealer wasn't following recommendations. She was clear about how specific oil recommendations are thoroughly engineered but didn't provide any data.

This is not the first time BMW has given odd recommendations- 51 cetane number is recommended but doesn't really exist in North America for example.

PL


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

TheBusDriver said:


> I always get a kick out of "forum geniuses" who somehow know far more than the BMW engineers who design/test/build our cars.
> 
> My 2018 540d calls for LLFE12. Its right there in the manual. That's the oil I'll use. It's also the oil BMW recommends for all 6 cylinder single turbo diesel cars in North America since 2013.
> 
> (And no, my car won't be used for pushing(?) or towing)


BMW also says that you have lifetime fluid in transmission. Also, for European drivers BMW recommends LL-04 in G30 530d (your engine). You draw conclusion why.

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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> Yes.
> 
> Interestingly, I've had service at two dealers now, both used LL04 even after I told them about what BMW recommends. I live in a hotter climate so maybe that is in their logic, but a BMW rep came for a BMW CCA meeting and told us about LLFE12 etc. and of course was confused that the dealer wasn't following recommendations. She was clear about how specific oil recommendations are thoroughly engineered but didn't provide any data.
> 
> ...


G30 530d in Europe comes strictly recommended for LL04. 
LL12FE is used to achieve CAFE standards in the US under assumption that engines will not see driving conditions like in Europe (speed, acceleration etc.). That is based on data collected from previous owners. Those who buy BMW's for what they are made are large minority, so apparently not concern for BMW.

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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

BMW calls LL12FE "gold" with "high" protection AND fuel economy, while LL04 is "silver" with "optimal" protection:

ORIGINAL BMW ENGINE OIL
Developed by BMW, for your BMW.
FEATURES
BMW TwinPower Turbo Silver (LL01 / LL04 5W-30): BMW TwinPower Turbo Silver engine oils provide excellent engine performance, while keeping critical engine parts clean and providing optimal engine protection.
BMW TwinPower Turbo Gold (LL01 / LL12 FE 0W-30): BMW TwinPower Turbo Gold engine oils set new standards providing outstanding engine performance and high engine protection. Oils with the "FE-fuel economy" label also provide fuel savings when used in BMW vehicles.
BMW M TwinPower Turbo (10W-60 / LL01 0W-40): BMW M TwinPower Turbo engine oils are tailored perfectly to BMW M high-performance engines and better protect M engines under extreme performance and racing conditions.
BENEFITS
Premium engine oil that is specific to your vehicle and driving dynamics.
Original BMW Engine Oil is used exclusively during your BMW's oil service to ensure the optimal performance of your vehicle.
100% Fully Synthetic.
ENGINE OIL BROCHURE

They say in the brochure that LL04 applies to ALL diesel engines (probably for their twin turbo units unlike LL12FE which is only for "single" turbo engines)

I think reading into this that the "optimal" protection is better than "high" protection - LL04 works for both single and double turbo'd engines. Yes, the FE is probably for CAFE.

PL


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## Master_Chase (Jun 8, 2015)

I ran LL04 in my 335D before I got tired of ordering since I couldn't find it locally and switched to 5w40 figured if it's good enough for Cummins, Powerstroke, Duramax, etc it's good enough for a BMW diesel. It's been probably close to 30K miles since I switched and the last few Blackstone reports look good.

IMHO the factory oil change interval is too long I change mine about every 5K miles.


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> BMW calls LL12FE "gold" with "high" protection AND fuel economy, while LL04 is "silver" with "optimal" protection:
> 
> ORIGINAL BMW ENGINE OIL
> Developed by BMW, for your BMW.
> ...


Gold, silver, it is marketing trick. 
LL12Fe has High Temperature-High Shear (HTHS) below 3.5. HTHSis single most important number to protect turbo. LL04 has it above 3.5 and LL04 5W30 oils are so called "heavy" 5W30 oils, almost 5W40 (BMW TPT LL04 kinematic viscosity is 12.2, while W40 oils start at 12.5cst). Only way to achieve HTHS of 3.5cst and higher is to have kinematic viscosity high, mostly above 11.5cst but mostly oils are around 12 for 0W30 and 5W30 LL04 and for 5W40 they are around 13 to 14cst (HTHS in LL04 5W40 is usually 3.7cst). 
LL12fe has lower HTHS and with that turbo will spool faster and have less resistance. That is good for city driving and due to less resistance, fuel economy. Not good if you using full potential of an engine. 
However, BMW could raise warranty issue here is manual strictly says LL12FE and no mention of LL04. In that case if I had 540d I would cut OCI to below 5k.

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## Hpi (Nov 5, 2017)

Here in Norway Twinpower turbo gold 0w30 comes in two versions, one with LL04 and one with LL12FE.

LL04: https://www.billigbilpleie.no/pi/Mo...4-SAE-0W30-1-ltr-Original_2638988_146290.aspx
LL12FE: https://www.billigbilpleie.no/pi/BMW-Longlife-12-FE-0W30-1-ltr-_2850113_146290.aspx

5w30 is LL04 Twinpower turbo silver: https://www.billigbilpleie.no/pi/BMW-Twin-Power-Turbo-LL-04-5w30-1-ltr-_2638987_146290.aspx


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## NoCreativity (Aug 19, 2015)

What year is your 535d?


shikbas said:


> Hello
> Trying to buy oil for 535d,I see different brands around,what are your recommendations please?
> thanks


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## shikbas (Mar 12, 2011)

NoCreativity said:


> What year is your 535d?


It is 2014


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

edycol said:


> G30 530d in Europe comes strictly recommended for LL04.
> LL12FE is used to achieve CAFE standards in the US under assumption that engines will not see driving conditions like in Europe (speed, acceleration etc.). That is based on data collected from previous owners. Those who buy BMW's for what they are made are large minority, so apparently not concern for BMW.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Except perhaps for barnstorming the few miles of unlimited Autobahn left, the ambient temperature in most of Europe is like New England - cold. Recent poorly thought-out speed limits are more severe than in the US and the "stop-light grand prix" is likely limited to cities like Paris where two lanes go into one lane at intersections, so drivers are free to play "chicken."

Please provide the data for your statement, I believe US drivers with long hot drives and stop-light races are more severe on their cars. Witness Fiat reliability perception in Europe vs. the US.

Agreed that US CAFE is abusive enough for car manufacturers to resort to low viscosity oil. I used 0W40 in my E320 CDI to good advantage but still ended up with a tapping lifter..... The 0 was for cold starts and better penetration of mechanical engine parts when in the greatest time of wear.

Cheers,

PL


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> Except perhaps for barnstorming the few miles of unlimited Autobahn left, the ambient temperature in most of Europe is like New England - cold. Recent poorly thought-out speed limits are more severe than in the US and the "stop-light grand prix" is likely limited to cities like Paris where two lanes go into one lane at intersections, so drivers are free to play "chicken."
> 
> Please provide the data for your statement, I believe US drivers with long hot drives and stop-light races are more severe on their cars. Witness Fiat reliability perception in Europe vs. the US.
> 
> ...


You can go to any oil selector in Europe and only option is LL04. Actually no one in Europe offers LL12FE or LL14 or LL01. 
All things you mentioned in the beginning is argument to use LL12FE oil, not LL04 but that is not the case. 
You have BMW TSB on issues regarding city driving and oil weight pertaining to the US only. 
But, your car do whatever you want. I was test driver on oil development, and one thing I know is that vehicle manufacturers go with minimum requirements not optimal one depending on the markets.

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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

edycol said:


> You can go to any oil selector in Europe and only option is LL04. Actually no one in Europe offers LL12FE or LL14 or LL01.
> All things you mentioned in the beginning is argument to use LL12FE oil, not LL04 but that is not the case.
> You have BMW TSB on issues regarding city driving and oil weight pertaining to the US only.
> But, your car do whatever you want. I was test driver on oil development, and one thing I know is that vehicle manufacturers go with minimum requirements not optimal one depending on the markets.
> ...


So, even though I agree with you, and you provide no data, you still insist on this logic, implying LL04 in Europe is a minimum, not optimal requirement? Which is it?

PL


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> So, even though I agree with you, and you provide no data, you still insist on this logic, implying LL04 in Europe is a minimum, not optimal requirement? Which is it?
> 
> PL


It is minimum. When oil company develops oil it has to meet minimum requirements set by BMW. LL04 is not particularly hard specification to achieve. Contrary to what one might think LL01FE, LL12FE and LL14 are easier to achieve then LL01 and LL04. 
You have some (some you will never find due to trade secrets) information on Lubrizol web site. 
Those who are on the hook with lease should not worry about this unless they want to keep car pass 50k. Those who want long term ownership should think about this. BMW's profit in the US mostly comes from lease customers. They have to first and foremost satisfy them with promised mpg etc. 
now one thing that is my speculation as I have never seen wear numbers is that BMW's under lease might have less wear in city driving using lighter oils. Considering TSB about N63 engines and oil weigh that might be the case.

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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks. I guess its all proprietary information. Even the Lubrizol web site has nothing on LL04. All we have is a wink from BMW. 

I agree: LL04 seems better than LL12FE just from the aspect of viscosity numbers generally associated with the recommendations from BMW: 5W30 seems better to me in hot weather so LL04 is in my preference list.

PL


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> Thanks. I guess its all proprietary information. Even the Lubrizol web site has nothing on LL04. All we have is a wink from BMW.
> 
> I agree: LL04 seems better than LL12FE just from the aspect of viscosity numbers generally associated with the recommendations from BMW: 5W30 seems better to me in hot weather so LL04 is in my preference list.
> 
> PL


Lubrizol should have LL04 chart. You can compare it to other specifications from MB, VW etc. 
BMW is not particularly stringent as MB for example. LL04 and LL01 are stringent on oxidation. However, when it comes to wear, deposits and evaporation loss MB229.51 and VW504.00/507.00 are more stringent, especially MB229.51. I always tell people to buy oil that meets both BMW and MB specs. 
Hence, that is why I think Mobil1 5W30 ESP is best oil for modern diesels. I was writing on E70 forum in detail about this oil. They somehow managed to get both ACEA C3 specification and C2 although oil has HTHS above 3.5 (3.58cp). That means that fuel efficiency of oil is on par with other C2 oils which are much thinner while being very thick W30 oil. From personal experience one can actually notice bump in mpg with that oil. That is one of advantages of that oil.

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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

edycol said:


> Lubrizol should have LL04 chart. You can compare it to other specifications from MB, VW etc.
> BMW is not particularly stringent as MB for example. LL04 and LL01 are stringent on oxidation. However, when it comes to wear, deposits and evaporation loss MB229.51 and VW504.00/507.00 are more stringent, especially MB229.51. I always tell people to buy oil that meets both BMW and MB specs.
> Hence, that is why I think Mobil1 5W30 ESP is best oil for modern diesels. I was writing on E70 forum in detail about this oil. They somehow managed to get both ACEA C3 specification and C2 although oil has HTHS above 3.5 (3.58cp). That means that fuel efficiency of oil is on par with other C2 oils which are much thinner while being very thick W30 oil. From personal experience one can actually notice bump in mpg with that oil. That is one of advantages of that oil.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm a big fan of Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30 (not ESP 5W30) since it is LL04, MB 229.31/229.51, VW 504.00/507.00, and a host of other manufacturer and oil related ratings.

However, the 0W30 version has a higher MB 229.52 approval and not BMW per this table so its still a bit confusing.

Here is the Lubrizol comparison diagram generator that gives MB 229.52 higher scores than LL04, which is already quite good.

Not every oil produced goes through manufacturer approvals, so it becomes a bit more of a guessing game. I think you can't lose with Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30 though. See https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-esp

For my 2016 BMW 535d, Mobil doesn't make an oil per their recommendation:


> Based on what you've told us, your vehicle manufacturer recommends a 0W-30 viscosity and oil that meets BMW Long-Life-12FE. We currently do not offer any motor oils in the United States that meet these specifications.


PL


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## DESwiss (Jun 12, 2018)

Has anyone tried this oil?

https://www.blauparts.com/bmw-n57-oil-change-kit-535d-f10.html

I have a 2014 535d xdrive and need to do an oil change soon. I'm considering this one or Castrol Edge 5W-30 C3 Advanced Full Synthetic. Both meet the LL-04 requirement but the Ravenol claims to be OEM Approved (from BMW) whereas the Castron meets a bunch of specs:

API SN/CF, ACEA C3, BMW Longlife-04 , GM dexos2, MB - Approval 229.31/229.51, Renault RN 0700/0710 , VW 502 00/505 00/505 01

including the MB and VW mentioned above.

Cost is within $10 of each other so I'm not really concerned about that.

By the way - anyone know of a video or write up to do an oil change on a 2014 535d? I've done plenty of oil changes on other vehicles but I know BMW are a bit different (or am I overthinking this?)


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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> I'm a big fan of Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30 (not ESP 5W30) since it is LL04, MB 229.31/229.51, VW 504.00/507.00, and a host of other manufacturer and oil related ratings.
> 
> However, the 0W30 version has a higher MB 229.52 approval and not BMW per this table so its still a bit confusing.
> 
> ...


0W30 has MB229.52 but difference between.51 and .52 is not substantial except in oxidation requirement. However, 0W30 will have higher NOACK and HTHS is lower at 3.5 compare to 5W30. 
Oils that do not go through manufacturers approval but claim that their oil meets and exceed should be avoided. With M1 5W30 ESP that is of course not the case.

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## edycol (Jul 8, 2015)

DESwiss said:


> Has anyone tried this oil?
> 
> https://www.blauparts.com/bmw-n57-oil-change-kit-535d-f10.html
> 
> ...


It is ok oil, not on par with Mobil1 5W30 ESP or BMW TPT 5W30.

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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Once I was done with the warranty I switched to M1 5w30 ESP

It really is pointless discussing oil with people who ultimately fall back on the old "BMW engineers are the smartest so who we to question?". Pointless

Oh, if you cannot google and educate yourself, demanding others clarify their posts is classless. Importantly if he spelled out centipoise or High Temperature High Shear, you'd still be drooling at the paragraph.


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## T67Regal (Aug 25, 2019)

*very good*

I thought this was a very good thread...and I only had to go back 1 year to find it.

So if you enjoyed/preferred to do your own oil changes on 16 535d xdrive that spends 98% of time cruising on the interstate @ 72mph, how would you rank the following oil choices. best to lowest level of protection,... or other noteworthy variables?. I am not well trained in this area but I believe they are all low SAPS to help protect N57 emissions equipment. However, not all specify LL-04. (links are just for universal viewing):

1. Castrol Edge, c3, 5w, meets LL-04
https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-0355...ix=castrol+edge+LL,automotive,184&sr=1-3&th=1

2. M1, 0w, ESP, NON formula
https://www.amazon.com/Mobil-121218...=0w-30+oil&qid=1570194707&s=automotive&sr=1-6

3. M1, 5w, ESP, Formula. does it meet LL-04?? Gosh is it really that costly? :yikes: 
https://www.amazon.com/Mobil-Formul...+5w-30+ESP&qid=1570197689&s=automotive&sr=1-8

4. OEM BMW TPT. Not a bad price point considering added filter + free shipping. funny how the description says 0w-30 but the photo is clearly 5w-30. (I contacted them to see if it LL04 or LL12FE):
https://www.getbmwparts.com/p-f10-535-diesel-oil-change-kit-pkf10ocd

5. Valvoline Synpower DT, C2, no mention of meeting LL-04. Not even sure where to purchase this:
https://www.valvoline.com/en-austra...oil/synpower-synthetic-engine-oil-dt-c2-0w-30

Not listed in any order of preference and links are just for simple viewing.


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## montr (Oct 7, 2006)

My nearby Walmart has the "Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30", 5 qt. for $22.68. It is a BMW LL04 approved oil.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Platinum-Euro-L-5W-30-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-qt/495194903


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## TheBusDriver (Jan 23, 2018)

T67Regal said:


> I thought this was a very good thread...and I only had to go back 1 year to find it.
> 
> So if you enjoyed/preferred to do your own oil changes on 16 535d xdrive that spends 98% of time cruising on the interstate @ 72mph, how would you rank the following oil choices. best to lowest level of protection,... or other noteworthy variables?. I am not well trained in this area but I believe they are all low SAPS to help protect N57 emissions equipment. However, not all specify LL-04. (links are just for universal viewing):
> 
> ...


We get to go full circle now.

Apparently there are 2 schools of thought.

1. BMW North America (USA and Canada) recommends LL-12FE spec oil for your car. That's what my manual says, and that's what my dealer puts in my 540d.
2. BMW Europe uses LL-04.

And, to answer your question above, I choose none of the above, since I'm in the 12FE camp


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## T67Regal (Aug 25, 2019)

Thanks Motr and TBD.

Of course 15 mins after posting I find the link below for LL-04 approved oils. Credit to Doug for link:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/...manuals/11-engine/11-40-oil-supply/1VnZ1vFi9W

There is a significant amount of LL-04 options from which to choose.


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

What a shock!!!! My brother had an old Audi8 and was told you dont need to change even though he had 180k miles. He changed it and said it showed up in the shifting. My 7s were recommended to change at 25k and since it was part of covered maintenance, I think they were saving themselves money and maybe lower impact fees as you stated. I may be very wrong but 25k for an oil and filter change can't be good for engine. I have never towed anything but that loading has to make it worse.
Thanks, David


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

The reason why many modern transmissions are lifetime has to do with four things: better trans-fluid, better filters, better torque converter lookup, and electronic fluid control. Automatics transmissions rely on the engagement of clutch packs in order to hold a certain gear. There are generally underdrive and overdrive hubs fulled with clutches for the corresponding underdrive/overdrive gears. These hubs require a certain amount of trans fluid and force(psi) to press and keep these clutches together which is supplied by the bump and controlled by the valve body. 

In the old days, mechanical valve bodies were just that, mechanical, and could only adjust(or not at all) to a certain point to the changes in fluid's loss in viscosity over time and the loss of clutch material overtime. This is why people had failed transmissions when they changed the fluid well past the recommended change interval without readjusting the valve body to compensate for the viscosity of the new fluid. New electronic transmissions can adjust to these changes and do it in more precisely. It is constantly monitoring how much pressure and fluid to inject into the clutch hubs to keep them together with every gear change down to the microliter. 

Then you have torque converters that can lockup now and now almost instantaneously after a shift. One of the main reasons for trans failure is heat, and an unlocked torque converter creates a lot of it. Older cars(less than a few decades ago) either used a locking clutch that only engaged at higher gears or didn't even have a locking torque converter at all. When the torque converter isn't locked, you are not sending full engine power to the wheels since it is relying on fluid coupling with the engine and trans spinning at different speeds generating a lot of heat under load. This is the main reason why manual transmissions were preferred in racing back then because they were a one to one engagement sending full engine power to the wheels and they did not generate as much heat.

New electronically controlled torque converters are able to lock in just about every gear and are much quicker to engage/disengage meaning a lot less heat is generated due to torque converter slippage. The ZF 8 speed torque converter in these cars is extremely fast compared to many other transmissions I have driven. Less slippage means less heat which in turn means the trans fluid and other components will last longer than non or partial locking torque converter transmissions. This coupled with better trans fluid and better filter technology is the major reasons why many automakers are now saying their fluid is "lifetime" and could not be said just a few short decades ago because automatic transmissions only had this technology in racing or high end cars.


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

I knew all that***55358;***56599;***55358;***56599;***55358;***56599; No I didn't. It just seems that after 5 years, it can't be a bad idea to change it. The 8 speed gearbox shifts great. My X3d is 5 years old with 80k.
I so appreciate the replies as most of you have forgotten more than I will ever know.. 
David


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

I am not saying it is not a bad idea to change it. I myself plan on changing mine at 100k or maybe a little later. I am just giving more insight as to why they don't need to be changed as often as the every 30k or 60k with transmissions from just a few decades ago.

If you do change it, I would recommend flashing your trans so it could relearn the clutch hub fill values.


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

*diesel engine oil*

I appreciate the response and understand and I am thankful for the responses. It is terrific to have members so knowledgeable in these topics. Don't all fluids get a little dirtier over time and have a change in their structures or viscosities? I would guess that the transmission and differential fluids don't improve with age.
I think that I should change the oil filters more often but it probably turns out the more they get plugged up, the more they trap the smaller particles. (joking)
David


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

*diesel engine oil*



alacey said:


> I am not saying it is not a bad idea to change it. I myself plan on changing mine at 100k or maybe a little later. I am just giving more insight as to why they don't need to be changed as often as the every 30k or 60k with transmissions from just a few decades ago.
> 
> If you do change it, I would recommend flashing your trans so it could relearn the clutch hub fill values.


What you said about the flushing the transmission is telling me that I shouldn't even try!!!
See, I am getting smarter!!


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

*diesel engine oil*

I watched a You Tube and they showed filling the transmission to the fill level and turning on the engine and then add. I sure don't need to ruin my transmission. What you said about the valve bodies and the rest tells me I shouldn't try it. My transmission is really smooth and love how it shifts. I hate to take to dealer since a oil change is so much. I like doing my own work but would n't take the chance of screwing it up. Again I so appreciate the knowledge you all have.
David


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

dwgx3d said:


> I watched a You Tube and they showed filling the transmission to the fill level and turning on the engine and then add. I sure don't need to ruin my transmission. What you said about the valve bodies and the rest tells me I shouldn't try it. My transmission is really smooth and love how it shifts. I hate to take to dealer since a oil change is so much. I like doing my own work but would n't take the chance of screwing it up. Again I so appreciate the knowledge you all have.
> David


So you will just let it go, increase the odds of a early death.... because you are scared???

Big boy pants. Read 5 or 6 hrs DIYs. Collect everything you need. Block out a full day and take your time. Something throws you a curve, come here and post- someone will be around to answer.

GL!


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

I would truly need to be educated on the transmission. "alacey" mentioned some things about transmission that I don't know. I have a day job and it keeps me busy. I will look into it though. My son has a Rogue with transmission problems and was told by Autozone to not try to to change fluid. Thankfully the X3d runs very well.
Transmission fluid is not something I have done. 
Thanks


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

ard said:


> So you will just let it go, increase the odds of a early death.... because you are scared???
> 
> Big boy pants. Read 5 or 6 hrs DIYs. Collect everything you need. Block out a full day and take your time. Something throws you a curve, come here and post- someone will be around to answer.
> 
> GL!


I watched a video, not a big deal. I guess the part that is important is running the transmission through all the gears and make sure transmission is up to temperature and then leaving in Park and rechecking.


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

What I watched said that when you drain the pan, about half of the fluid remains in transmission. Would it make sense to drain oil pan, fill it and then run transmission, check level. Run the car for a month and then do the drain and filter change? That way most of fluid has been replaced and you have a new filter?


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Yes, that is common sense, often mentioned here. Why stop at one drain and fill? It is a serial dilution calculation and reaches 100% eventually.


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

That makes once for me! It's easy to have a warm transmission by driving before you start. So it seems with transmission in park , keep filling till overflow. Then run thru the gears, maybe 1 minute per gear and back to park and fill. I am guessing that the biggest danger not having enough fluid and getting the fluid everywhere it needs to be before you run it on road?
I appreciate the help. I get amazed by local BMW dealer. I had them check when I purchased it. Was told rear brake pads getting worn and will need replacing soon. A week later checking warranty for EGR RECALL, I needed all brake pads replaced, rotors and replace tires. I bot it with new Michelin tires. One tire was critical***55358;***56596;***55358;***56596;***55358;***56596; Business must be very slow!
Thanks. David


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

There is an upper temperature limit for proper ATF level.


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

If 140 deg is correct, I can use my tongue, same temperature as my prime rib Easy to use a meat thermometer to test that.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

dwgx3d said:


> What I watched said that when you drain the pan, about half of the fluid remains in transmission. Would it make sense to drain oil pan, fill it and then run transmission, check level. Run the car for a month and then do the drain and filter change? That way most of fluid has been replaced and you have a new filter?


 I do a 2x procedure.

HOWEVER, I dont wait a month. Simply do a drain and pan change. then a ROUGH fill and install the bolts semi snug. Drive for 10-15 minutes. (Fully to pertains temp, select all gears, etc)

Then a drain and final (careful) top off (measuring temp, all that.

The fluids will fully miss VERY quickly,


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

That sounds like a good idea. I have 80K on the X3 so this should be a good time to do that. Also with a new filter, I should be good to go. I watched the Bavarian Autosports video and the only thing I have a concern is how much time to run each gear. You are doing it by driving, some of the others are going thru the gears with foot on brake. If I am on jack stands, would going to 2 wheel drive and turning off the traction control allow the wheels to spin and go thru the gears that way? I have hydraulic jack so getting X3 up and down no problem. For the second fill I really don't that much clearance so I could drive it on 4x4 blocks.
With a new filter, doing the drain and fill every 30K miles should work.
Thanks David


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

ard said:


> I do a 2x procedure.
> 
> HOWEVER, I dont wait a month. Simply do a drain and pan change. then a ROUGH fill and install the bolts semi snug. Drive for 10-15 minutes. (Fully to pertains temp, select all gears, etc)
> 
> ...


Although this sounds like a good idea, it may not be necessary.

I've had transmission fluid changed on at least 4 vehicles and the most consequential was my 1993 Suburban 1500 which was already discolored (not pink) at 12,000 miles. That was the era when most automatics came with "dino based" fluid, not synthetic. The synthetic molecules were likely much more resilient at the plate to plate interface where shear and heat were bad for mineral based fluid.

The car that I had changed twice in close timing was also the easiest to change the fluid on: Mercedes E320 CDI with its 5 speed automatic: it had a dipstick where one could suck out the fluid with a topsider and replace the same amount with synthetic fluid, also not original fill - that transmission still lives with no need for overhaul at over 350,000 miles.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Pierre Louis said:


> Although this sounds like a good idea, it may not be necessary.
> 
> I've had transmission fluid changed on at least 4 vehicles and the most consequential was my 1993 Suburban 1500 which was already discolored (not pink) at 12,000 miles. That was the era when most automatics came with "dino based" fluid, not synthetic. The synthetic molecules were likely much more resilient at the plate to plate interface where shear and heat were bad for mineral based fluid.
> 
> The car that I had changed twice in close timing was also the easiest to change the fluid on: Mercedes E320 CDI with its 5 speed automatic: it had a dipstick where one could suck out the fluid with a topsider and replace the same amount with synthetic fluid, also not original fill - that transmission still lives with no need for overhaul at over 350,000 miles.


'Might' not be. Its what i do.


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## dwgx3d (Apr 18, 2020)

But if the dipsticks were on BMW you wouldn't get to go to the dealer and have them do it!!!!! Is there a fluid level sensor for the transmission? My concern is making sure to fill to the correct amount and then go thru the gear changes and for how long with foot on the brake. 
One suggestion was to go run the vehicle for 20 minutes and do another drain which would then have more complete change of the fluids. I don't know if mine is dirty or not, X3 has 81K miles. Wouldn't think it would have been done.
Thanks, David


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