# Dealer's Actual Cost = ( Invoice Price - Factory To Dealer Incentives - Factory Holdb



## DVDA (Nov 24, 2008)

I found this formula on a New Car Buying Guide and I was wondering if anyone knows the Factory Dealer Incentives & Factory Holdback for 135i?

Thank you


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## SeaTown (Nov 9, 2006)

No incentives no holdback.

You can get an additional $750 towards your lease though....

Or 2.9% financing.


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## DVDA (Nov 24, 2008)

That is currently...does this change or BMW never does holdback & Dealer incentives?

I know where to find BMW to Customer Incentives, but not BMW to Dealer Incentives


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## Elias (Jun 26, 2005)

DVDA said:


> That is currently...does this change or BMW never does holdback & Dealer incentives?
> 
> I know where to find BMW to Customer Incentives, but not BMW to Dealer Incentives


There might be a reason why you can't find BMW to Dealer incentives.


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## mclaren (Jan 5, 2005)

BMW to dealer incentives are known as trunk monkeys on this forum. That came from trunk money. There aren't any on the 135i now. BMW does not have a holdback system, they use customer satisfaction surveys instead. Edmunds has information about manufacturer to dealer incentives for all makes.


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## DVDA (Nov 24, 2008)

Good answer thank you mclaren


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## BigPimp (Sep 27, 2003)

DVDA, sounds like you should be buying a GM product. You will be able to get a real nice deal there. You have a lot to learn if BMW is what you desire. Maybe you should start with a used BMW vehicle, maybe a 3 series from early 2000s like a 323i with about 90k on it. craigslist is your friend for that. 

FYI, I'm not a dealer.


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## DVDA (Nov 24, 2008)

Wow BigPimp thanks for pointing out the obvious "I have a lot to learn." Why do you think im crusing the forums, reading car buying guides, looking up prices, finding out the dealer "extras" that try to scam you out of money? Its called doing my research and learning.

I am not an impluse buyer, I will do tons of research before stepping into a CA's office. If there is something I dont understand when I actually step into the showroom I will leave and return when I am certain.

If i learned anything from Law School it is to do research and be prepared for everything which is exactly what I am trying to do. But your reply with USELESS nonsense does not really help me further me knowledge.


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## BigPimp (Sep 27, 2003)

Yeah yeah, blah blah, dork! Spend your 'lawyer money' and go buy a car already, quit wasting time, get a date or something tough guy. All this research BS just means you are afraid to overpay, cheapo! How about you get a recomended CA who won't bend you over too much and put you into the right car, at the right price. There, problem solved smooches! Otherwise, carry on with your research, don't forget to check Consumer Reports, smoochie!


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## DVDA (Nov 24, 2008)

Smoochie? I saw that once, I expected better from Robin Williams & Edward Norton...


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## fordan (Jun 7, 2009)

BigPimp said:


> Yeah yeah, blah blah, dork! Spend your 'lawyer money' and go buy a car already, quit wasting time, get a date or something tough guy. All this research BS just means you are afraid to overpay, cheapo! How about you get a recomended CA who won't bend you over too much and put you into the right car, at the right price. There, problem solved smooches! Otherwise, carry on with your research, don't forget to check Consumer Reports, smoochie!


I honestly don't see why you're being so hostile. He's asking reasonable questions about how the purchasing process works. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be uninformed when negotiating.


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## uter (Jan 6, 2002)

DVDA, I think that one poster's comments are far from representative of B'fest. I commend you for doing your research. There ARE sales associates at BMW dealerships who will happily deal with you and be very upfront about incentives; just requires a little looking around.


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## DVDA (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks All, I appreciate the help and support...dont worry about BigPimp he doesnt bother me all of your advice overshadows his hostility.


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## 02fireman (May 29, 2008)

Don't let the comments from one [email protected]#$%# get you discouraged. 99% of the people here want or wanted the best deal possible. If you are looking for a car and have time to wait, do ED and get the best deal plus a little vacation out of it


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## vern (Apr 19, 2002)

BigPimp said:


> Yeah yeah, blah blah, dork! Spend your 'lawyer money' and go buy a car already, quit wasting time, get a date or something tough guy. All this research BS just means you are afraid to overpay, cheapo! How about you get a recomended CA who won't bend you over too much and put you into the right car, at the right price. There, problem solved smooches! Otherwise, carry on with your research, don't forget to check Consumer Reports, smoochie!


Hey lighten up, the guy is only asking questions that others would also want to know the answers to. Give him a break
cheers
vern


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## shpuntik (Dec 4, 2006)

BigPimp said:


> Yeah yeah, blah blah, dork! Spend your 'lawyer money' and go buy a car already, quit wasting time, get a date or something tough guy. All this research BS just means you are afraid to overpay, cheapo! How about you get a recomended CA who won't bend you over too much and put you into the right car, at the right price. There, problem solved smooches! Otherwise, carry on with your research, don't forget to check Consumer Reports, smoochie!


People like you are the reason other enthusiasts frown upon BMW owners.

How old are you anyway? If you are anywhere close to the age of a person who works for a living, you would realize that most people work hard for their money. What is so wrong with spending it wisely?

Go take a simple math lesson or see a therapist and report back here. Both should offer some help in becoming socially acceptable.

Idiot.


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## b-y (Sep 14, 2004)

shpuntik said:


> People like you are the reason other enthusiasts frown upon BMW owners.
> 
> How old are you anyway? ....


Your comment got me thinking (probably a mistake  ), and I looked up his "Public Profile". I found some unintended humor:

*Mini Statistics*: Age 31 
Join Date 09-27-2003 
Total Posts 141

*Friends*: _BigPimp has not made any friends yet._

Even stranger is this thread he started not quite two years ago. :dunno:


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## Kamdog (Apr 15, 2007)

DVDA said:


> Wow BigPimp thanks for pointing out the obvious "I have a lot to learn." Why do you think im crusing the forums, reading car buying guides, looking up prices, finding out the dealer "extras" that try to scam you out of money? Its called doing my research and learning.
> 
> .





DVDA said:


> Thanks All, I appreciate the help and support...dont worry about BigPimp he doesnt bother me all of your advice overshadows his hostility.


Just a note: Generally, you need at least a post count of 100 before you employ sarcasm in these threads.

Except for Poly Sci, where a post count of 50 is required before you are even allowed on that board, but, once on, sarcasm is permitted from the first post. If, however, you fail to employ sarcasm (or irony, derision, or some form of acerbity) by the 20th posting, you can get kicked out.


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## DVDA (Nov 24, 2008)

I guess I better start posting more often so I can get my permit Kamdog lol


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

b-y said:


> Your comment got me thinking (probably a mistake  ), and I looked up his "Public Profile". I found some unintended humor:
> 
> *Mini Statistics*: Age 31
> Join Date 09-27-2003
> ...


:rofl: :lmao: :bustingup


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

JW_BMW said:


> And you think "everyone" else will work for free?
> 
> Do you work for free? If you do let me know...im hiring.


By "everyone" I meant that the other brick and mortar stores can do the service, WHICH IS THE MOST PROFITABLE PART OF YOUR BUSINESS.

I don't work for free, nobody should. Including BMW salesmen. They should be paid exactly what their time is worth. Not a penny more nor a penny less. :thumbup:


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## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

ard said:


> By "everyone" I meant that the other brick and mortar stores can do the service, *WHICH IS THE MOST PROFITABLE PART OF YOUR BUSINESS.*


Since you sound like you think you know what you are saying...then please explain...

What other brick and mortar stores...and which is the most profitable part of our business


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## SeaTown (Nov 9, 2006)

ard said:


> Interesting question.
> 
> When I was buying an E39M5 in 2003 where were you in helping out with this nifty explanation? When BMW retail dealers were tacking $5k and more onto MSRP, there was little regard for what is 'fair' and 'right' and what the 'true cost' was....
> 
> ...


In response to some of your questions... When the E39 M came out it was in crazy demand, so dealers made hay while the sun shone. it made up for the invoice deals and $500 over deals and meant there was a glimmer of profit in the department. A car is only worth what someone will pay for it. If that someone wants one bad enough then its worth it to them. I dont agree but customers can be funny things.... So yes it is reasonable to hope that previous profit earned helps them out while times are hard.

Anyone stupid enough to fall for the 'if you don't buy from sales you won't get 'taken care of in service' deserves everything they get. Sorry.

Future revenues are hoped for but never guarenteed. Thats what todays revenues are - service and parts. Do a good job in Sales and you HOPE you get the service business.

I think the topic of no showroom has been done to death, but you said drop ship to other dealers? How would you do that with just virtual dealers...? Surely you want to touch feel and drive the car you are buying? Plus what about all the customers that simply will not order a car without seeing it in the color they want? How do you accomodate them?

It sounds like everyone wants a no haggle experience. So how about this - from now on we will sell the cars at todays invoice prce? Effectively a 7% discount and we call that "The Price" and not MSRP but you dont get any money off. At all.

Then for each new car we sell BMW give us - say - 7%. Is that fair or do you want that 7% too? Because your getting the car at invoice right? So we can keep what BMW give us?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

JW_BMW said:


> ^^^
> 
> Supply and demand...
> 
> ...


Agreed, supply and demand. So why do *SOME *salesmen (you a BMW salesman?) whine about 'we're not making any money on the deal" and "shouldn't cost include the builidng rent and electricity" when the DEMAND is low and prices are driven to virtually the cost of the car from BMW?

Why do they expound the "Law of Supply and Demand" when tacking on blue sky markups in good times, but whinge about 'it's not fair' when the demand is virtually nil and prices tank?

Trust me bub, I understand business and the sales psychology... the rationalizations are always different and are a required part of the process.

A

PS I do, in fact, want to know invoice on virtually everything I **** from granite slabs to 65" LCDs. And in my book stealerships get their title not from new car sales, but from bending folks over on service IMHO>


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## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

ard said:


> Agreed, supply and demand. So why do salesmen (you a BMW salesman?) whine about 'we're not making any money on the deal" and "shouldn't cost include the builidng rent and electricity" when the DEMAND is low and prices are driven to virtually the cost of the car from BMW?
> 
> Why do they expound the "Law of Supply and Demand" when tacking on blue sky markups in good times, but whinge about 'it's not fair' when the demand is virtually nil and prices tank?
> 
> ...


...who is whining? Don't confuse a few who whine with the majority who don't. Or maybe they are whining because it is in fact a zero profit deal...just maybe they are telling the truth this one time.

The cost of keeping the lights on at ABC BMW has no bearing on what I will sell the car for.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

JW_BMW said:


> ...who is whining? Don't confuse a few who whine with the majority who don't. Or maybe they are whining because it is in fact a zero profit deal...just maybe they are telling the truth this one time.
> 
> The cost of keeping the lights on at ABC BMW has no bearing on what I will sell the car for.


Fair enough, I edited my post to reflect that not all are whining.

Is this a fair deal next week for an X5/35d?

published wholesale, 
minus BMW incentives, 
plus training, 
plus MOCA, 
plus delivery

and then lets say add $500 for their 10 hours of work,

plus a guarantee of 'all 5s' to maximize their CSI 'kickback' or profit sharing, or whatever this secret plan is called.

For a car they will order and I will pick up in Spartanburg, recognizing this is a 2009 delivered 6 weeks before the 2010 comes out.

Just curious as to how outrageous this offer appears....


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## JW_BMW (Oct 3, 2007)

ard said:


> Fair enough, I edited my post to reflect that not all are whining.
> 
> Is this a fair deal next week for an X5/35d?
> 
> ...


Can't answer your question...it is between you and the seller to find common ground...and to determine what is fair and what is not.


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## atr_hugo (Oct 8, 2007)

DVDA said:


> That is currently...does this change or BMW never does holdback & Dealer incentives?
> 
> I know where to find BMW to Customer Incentives, but not BMW to Dealer Incentives


One place that carries them is Automotive News - unfortunately it is a subscription site. Often a local car dealer will have a copy of Automotive News (a tabloid-like glossy newspaper) in the customer service lounge. Also your local library may carry a copy.

I don't know if Ward's Automotive carries that info. Anyone reading this get Ward's?


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

JW_BMW said:


> Can't answer your question...it is between you and the seller to find common ground...and to determine what is fair and what is not.


Just a bundle of mystery I guess.

No such thing as 'fair', just 'common ground'?

And that 'common ground' shouldn't take into effect any future incentives from BMW based on CSI, nor should it consider the cost of maintaining a showroom, employees, etc...

Sure makes an economic analysis difficult...

But I think I can actually see where you are coming from in an abstract way- 'fairness' isn't the issue, the market decides the price irrespective of 'fairness'?

Maybe they'll be some other inputs- my question really was aimed at you personally, JW, but rather the participants in the forum.


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

JW_BMW said:


> Can't answer your question...it is between you and the seller to find common ground...*and to determine what is fair and what is not*.





ard said:


> Just a bundle of mystery I guess.
> 
> *No such thing as 'fair'*, just 'common ground'?
> 
> ...


Did you read the whole post? It's not very long.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

SeaTown said:


> Anyone stupid enough to fall for the 'if you don't buy from sales you won't get 'taken care of in service' deserves everything they get. Sorry.


really?

Dealers in CA (specifically some SF bay area and some LA area places), and I know this for a fact, will withhold BMW loaners from service clients who did not buy from them.. These clients will not get 'BMW loaners', but rather rentals- and will sometimes (especially on non-warranty work) be flat out turned down. I won't name names here.

I'm new here, so I haven't been privy to the 'virtual' discussion. Sorry to have brought it up actually, since it is, at the end of the day, an unworkable option. Truly. I used it to hammer home the point that SERVICE is where the money is....

A


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## tturedraider (Nov 11, 2005)

ard said:


> really?
> 
> Dealers in CA (specifically some SF bay area and some LA area places), and I know this for a fact, will withhold BMW loaners from service clients who did not buy from them.. These clients will not get 'BMW loaners', but rather rentals- and will sometimes (especially on non-warranty work) be flat out turned down. I won't name names here.
> 
> A


That's not really unusual. Quite a few BMW dealer only offer loaners of any kind to customers who purchased their car from them. Loaner car programs are up to the individual dealers. It's not a BMW corporate thing.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

tturedraider said:


> That's not really unusual. Quite a few BMW dealer only offer loaners of any kind to customers who purchased their car from them. Loaner car programs are up to the individual dealers. It's not a BMW corporate thing.


Uh, yeah. I was replying to Seatown who seemed to indicate otherwise.



> _
> "Anyone stupid enough to fall for the 'if you don't buy from sales you won't get 'taken care of in service' deserves everything they get. Sorry."_


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## SeaTown (Nov 9, 2006)

ard said:


> Uh, yeah. I was replying to Seatown who seemed to indicate otherwise.


But a dealer's first priority is to its own clients right? So many will withhold loaner for people that did not get their car there. I see no problem with that whatsoever.

But anyone that falls for the line "yo wont get looked after in service" and pays more is stupid. Just find another dealer that will give you a loaner


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

SeaTown said:


> But a dealer's first priority is to its own clients right? So many will withhold loaner for people that did not get their car there. I see no problem with that whatsoever.
> 
> But anyone that falls for the line "yo wont get looked after in service" and pays more is stupid. Just find another dealer that will give you a loaner


If a dealer's policy is to withhold loaners (that BMW Corporate provides at steep discount to dealers for warranty work) from 'not-purchased-here service clients' then that dealer has, IN FACT, said "you will not get taken care of in service if you don't buy from us". Are you saying people are stupid if they wind up buying from this dealer versus a cheaper dealer across town because they don't want to drive across town for service?


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## SeaTown (Nov 9, 2006)

ard said:


> If a dealer's policy is to withhold loaners (that BMW Corporate provides at steep discount to dealers for warranty work) from 'not-purchased-here service clients' then that dealer has, IN FACT, said "you will not get taken care of in service if you don't buy from us". Are you saying people are stupid if they wind up buying from this dealer versus a cheaper dealer across town because they don't want to drive across town for service?


No mate, what I was suggesting was if someone pays more at a dealer because of the threat of not getting looked after that is ridiculous. Who cares what type of loaner you get? As long as you get a decent SA you'll get looked after... They have CEI calls too in service. Of course they will look after you. When you call in for a service the appointment setter will not care where you get the car from, nor will they research any times you came into the store and go ask anyone about the nature of your visits. They will simply book you in.

You will never have to drive across town to get a service simply because you didnt get a car there.


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## el indiano (Jun 20, 2006)

DVDA said:


> Smoochie? I saw that once, I expected better from Robin Williams & Edward Norton...


hey hey hey, watch it.

i liked that movie.


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## DingDing (Jun 28, 2006)

BigPimp said:


> Yeah yeah, blah blah, dork! Spend your 'lawyer money' and go buy a car already, quit wasting time, get a date or something tough guy. All this research BS just means you are afraid to overpay, cheapo! How about you get a recomended CA who won't bend you over too much and put you into the right car, at the right price. There, problem solved smooches! Otherwise, carry on with your research, don't forget to check Consumer Reports, smoochie!


What an AXXHOLE!!!!


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## [email protected] (Jul 6, 2009)

:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:


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## BigPimp (Sep 27, 2003)

This thread is still going??, jeez, and I am missing all the fun.  I am glad you guys did not hold back letting me have it as I did not hold back giving it to the OP with these silly questions. I am glad some of you got the point of my response. 

I am glad to provide over a months worth of entertainment. This made a splash. I did not realize everyone was so sensitive and protective of their newbz.  I guess we dont haze the FNGs here who come on with silly questions??!! I've been on the auto forums for over 10 years and FNGs always get hazed but I guess you guys are ok letting this one slide. And for the record, I am not an azzhole, however my delivery might've been misinterpreted that way, just delivering the truth and sometimes truth hurts. I thought that's what the internet is for. 

The biggest objection I see in this thread and thus my response is that we have some guy here (consumer) who does not know anything about the brand(assumption based on the posed question), albeit trying to learn, and is not able to afford it without some sort of a deep discount (again assumption based on thread) is coming onto a dealer forum, having the audacity to ask the dealers themselves the tricks of the trade so that he can screw some other dealer out of profits because assumptivelly this is the only way he can buy a BMW. Not a good way to go, no matter how you spin it or who the perceived a-hole is. To the BMW faithful, this is a brand dilution. My suggestion is to OP is to buy used BMW or pay a fair market price for the new one. Better yet, Toyota makes solid vehicles at very affordable prices. I hear Corolla is a fine vehicle. 

To the rest of youz who opted to question my character and attempt at ridicule, give it a rest because you are bringing a knife to a gun fight. I just wish I had the time to respond to the feeble attempts but in reality they were just that, feeble, so responses are not worth it. Carry on....discuss amongst yourselves.


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