# Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for the car...



## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

I installed an E46 M3 strut tower brace today. :thumbup: 

Car car feels a LOT crisper when cornering. I found that understeer was noticably reduced, as well. The car was simply a LOT more willing to dance. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Now if UUC will just go ahead and release those bloody swaybars...


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

God DAMN is my engine bay filthy!

Someone want to clean it for me?


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## jordanLINY (Sep 15, 2002)

good job nick 

Sorry, can't take up on your engine clean offer. I might have some spare ziploc bags to cover up the sensitive parts, if you need them.

jordan


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *I installed an E46 M3 strut tower brace today. :thumbup: *


The all important question... how much did the strut brace cost?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

$300 from Tischer post discount... I could have saved a few bucks ordering from Cutter... But then I'd have had to wait.  And shipping would probably have been substantial as well.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for the car...*



alee said:


> *
> The all important question... how much did the strut brace cost?  *


hopefully he didn't pay more than $271?


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for the car...*



atyclb said:


> *hopefully he didn't pay more than $271? *


I guess we know the answer...


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for the car...*



alee said:


> *
> I guess we know the answer... *


ack--didn't see his answer before mine. $300 isn't really bad. $271 is the absolute minimum.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for the car*



atyclb said:


> *ack--didn't see his answer before mine. $300 isn't really bad. $271 is the absolute minimum. *


Unless you steal it. 

I'm still not completely sold that it makes a difference unless you push your car really hard. I'm still thinking about buying the rear one.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for the car*



alee said:


> *
> Unless you steal it.
> 
> I'm still not completely sold that it makes a difference unless you push your car really hard. I'm still thinking about buying the rear one. *


It doesn't make a difference. I put one on and didn't feel anything


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for*



atyclb said:


> *
> 
> It doesn't make a difference. I put one on and didn't feel anything *


With all due respect, you drive a VERY different car from mine. 
I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make a difference on an M3... It makes a pretty substantial difference on my car. Of course I push pretty hard.  I found that understeer is very substantially reduced. This isn't exactly a problem on the M3, so...


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well... Finally gave in to the urge to buy SOMETHING for*



Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *
> 
> With all due respect, you drive a VERY different car from mine.
> I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make a difference on an M3... It makes a pretty substantial difference on my car. Of course I push pretty hard.  I found that understeer is very substantially reduced. This isn't exactly a problem on the M3, so... *


Oh I definitely believe that. Wagons and cabs are different beasts. But I'd bet that alee w/ his coupe wouldn't notice much difference either. Especially with him driving 60 miles a month


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Good point. Al's driving habits are probably not going to be helped much...

Although my car IS stiffer than his to begin with.


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

Would I feel a difference in normal driving in a Cab? If so, for $300 why didn't BMW do this? Small $$$ relatively.


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *Would I feel a difference in normal driving in a Cab? If so, for $300 why didn't BMW do this? Small $$$ relatively. *


I bet it would make the most difference in a cab, being the least rigid of the E46 cars.

I wonder what the rigidity figures of an M3 with strut bar is, vs. a regular 3 series coupe?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

alee said:


> *
> I bet it would make the most difference in a cab, being the least rigid of the E46 cars.
> 
> I wonder what the rigidity figures of an M3 with strut bar is, vs. a regular 3 series coupe? *


Folding seats are an option on the M3. I'd guess it's up there with the sedan w/o folding seats. (i.e. way stiffer than my car.)

I do wonder if the xi benefits more from it than other vehicles... After all, I've got that wacky suspension AND I have the engine torqueing the strut towers as well.


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

alee said:


> *
> I bet it would make the most difference in a cab, being the least rigid of the E46 cars.
> 
> *


Under normal conditions? Why didn't BMW do it then, so cheap, especially mass produced for them.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *
> 
> Under normal conditions? Why didn't BMW do it then, so cheap, especially mass produced for them. *


Retail price in Germany is like $150. 

My impression is that the car handles really uneven surfaces a bit better now... Although for the most part in gentle driving, the strut bar is transparent. Maybe the car feels a little tighter, but I don't know...


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## alee (Dec 19, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *Under normal conditions? Why didn't BMW do it then, so cheap, especially mass produced for them. *


My guess would be just corner cutting.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

For the NCC it doesn't.
I believe it's allowed in the SCCA, but it's been a while since I looked in the rules.


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

DougDogs said:


> *two other questions, was it easy to install??? (looks like it was)
> 
> and do you have to do an alignment after install?? *


took me 5 minutes, no alignment necessary


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Shouldn't have to do an alignment...

Install is pretty easy, but not quite as easy as it looks. It can be an absolute cast iron ***** to get the, er, feet? over the three screws on the shock towers. I ended up using a hammer and an advil bottle (as a cushion), and I had to fiddle with the things quite a bit to get them down, still. Even so, it only took me about 20 minutes... Five of which were spent finding a 13mm socket for the wrench. (Only tool you theoretically should need.)


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *For the NCC it doesn't.
> I believe it's allowed in the SCCA, but it's been a while since I looked in the rules. *


STBs? I dunno about the BMWCCA, but I've heard that it keeps you in stock. STBs of any kind, however, take you out of stock in SCCA rules.

With swaybars, once again I don't know what the BMWCCA rule is. But according to the SCCA, you can do anything you want to the front - including removal, I think - and remain in stock. You can't do anything to the rear swaybar.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *For the NCC it doesn't.*


You're koser there.

*



I believe it's allowed in the SCCA, but it's been a while since I looked in the rules.

Click to expand...

*Welcome to DSP! (or Street Touring) :thumbup: or :banghead:


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> *
> You're koser there.
> 
> 
> *


*

kosher? as in OK?*


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> *
> 
> STBs? I dunno about the BMWCCA, but I've heard that it keeps you in stock. STBs of any kind, however, take you out of stock in SCCA rules.
> 
> ...


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *
> 
> kosher? as in OK? *


Just call me Dreadmo :banghead:


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## Mr. The Edge (Dec 19, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *
> 
> kosher? as in OK? *


i like pickles


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## johnlew (Dec 25, 2001)

atyclb said:


> *
> 
> i like pickles *


not that there's anything wrong with that!


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> *
> Welcome to DSP! (or Street Touring) :thumbup: or :banghead:
> 
> *


Yeesh... From reading that, I get the impression that an intake and SS brake lines throw you into Touring as well.

Hmm... They're just a bit stricter there. Ah well. More than worth it anyway.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

johnlew said:


> *
> 
> not that there's anything wrong with that!  *


No, there's not, but there is a difference between liking your own pickle and other people's pickles.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> *
> 
> Yeesh... From reading that, I get the impression that an intake and SS brake lines throw you into Touring as well.
> 
> Hmm... They're just a bit stricter there. Ah well. More than worth it anyway.  *


A short shift kit will take you out of DS and into DSP in the SCCA's eyes.  The single most useful mod allowed in the SP classes, IMO, is springs. The most competitive SP drivers will have some form of lowering done to their cars, probably in addition to swaybar mods. In all honesty stuff like intakes don't do much on most autocross courses. I would continue to call yourself "stock" unless you start to affect points standings, at which point it would be somewhat unsportsmanlike. Until then, though, I know more than one example of someone in a stock class who technically shouldn't be there, but practically should.


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> *
> 
> A short shift kit will take you out of DS and into DSP in the SCCA's eyes.  The single most useful mod allowed in the SP classes, IMO, is springs. *


Only becuase they allow R Comps in stock :banghead:

*



I would continue to call yourself "stock" unless you start to affect points standings, at which point it would be somewhat unsportsmanlike. Until then, though, I know more than one example of someone in a stock class who technically shouldn't be there, but practically should.

Click to expand...

*If you know that you aren't going to be in the trophy hunt (or interfering with those that are), why purposefully misclass yourself? Am I missing something?


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *
> 
> Only becuase they allow R Comps in stock :banghead:
> 
> ...


*

Personal preference, I guess. For example, if my only mod was an STB, my times wouldn't even come close to people in the SP class. But they would be "competitive" in stock. The only problem is that it would be unfair to those who actually ARE stock, if you're near the top with a non-stock modification.

However, if you are non-stock and your times are not competitive, I would say that you are better off comparing your driving skill to those in the stock category as opposed to street prepared. An inexperienced SP driver (with springs, sways, etc) may produce times that are lower than a less inexperienced driver with only an STB, yet he/she is not a better driver.

So technically, yes, the rules say you belong in SP. But for the convenience of ranking yourself among your actual peers, I would stay in stock as long as it doesn't interfere with the standings. Any official would disagree with me, and I would actually disagree myself if someone point-blank asked me while officiating an event. But on the side, I think most people would cautiously agree.*


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

DougDogs said:


> *
> 
> Thanks for the info!! I want to get one of those, and I'm also looking into coil overs to bring my XI closer to normal 325 ride height. *


If you get coilovers I'm driving up there and you're taking me for a ride. *grins*


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> *
> 
> Personal preference, I guess.*


It still makes a difference, though. If you finish out of the points in your class, you still rank somewhere on the overall PAX standings, and if you run in a class with a better PAX multiplier than you should, it skews the results for everyone else that comes in behind you (which probably won't be that many), and that's unfair.

*



However, if you are non-stock and your times are not competitive, I would say that you are better off comparing your driving skill to those in the stock category as opposed to street prepared.

Click to expand...

*You can compare your times with anyone else that records a time on a given day no matter what class either of you run in. If you have a non-stock mod and compare yourself to people that ran stock without a similar mod, the value is dubious anyway. Everything else being equal, what would the other guy have run if he had the same mod? Would it have made a difference?

A better way to go, IMO, is to track yourself against a number of people that are consistant over time, no matter what class they run in. That will show you to what degree you are improving.

What is needed (and there appears to be talk of doing this at next years WDCR-SCCA events) is something like a "Casual" class where people can just run for fun without a potential for interefering with those that take it more seriously.


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *
> What is needed (and there appears to be talk of doing this at next years WDCR-SCCA events) is something like a "Casual" class where people can just run for fun without a potential for interefering with those that take it more seriously. *


I know that some people, like Ron Katona, have purposefully marked all of their runs as "fun" in order to avoid the points. Otherwise, Ron would've cleaned up at the last FedEx event - he creamed the rest of BSP. The casual class idea is a good one but I wonder too many (or not enough?) people would make the switch.

I guess my stance comes from the opinion that certain mods, while taking you into SP, realistically offer zero improvement at an autocross event. Springs or a rear sway bar are significant mods that should get you into SP. The same goes for an X-brace, from what I can tell. But a short shifter? Come on. And the benefits of an STB vary enough from car to car that I can't really say whether one should take you into SP; obviously the SCCA can't and shouldn't make per-car judgements like that. I have the same opinion regarding brake rotors and SM, but I hear the SCCA will now make brake rotor mods allowable in SP next season.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

DougDogs said:


> *
> 
> There is a Midas shop near me that is owned by a BMWCCA member. He has already agreed to do the install, just waiting for HR to release the parts for the 325xi...330xi are already available
> 
> I'll let you know when they are installed:thumbup: *


Contact Turner... I'm pretty sure the parts exist. (A number of people at E46Fanatics have them on 325xis...)


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## ·clyde· (Dec 26, 2001)

Jetfire said:


> *
> The casual class idea is a good one but I wonder too many (or not enough?) people would make the switch.
> *


I think that the idea is largely to give novices a simplified entry point. It looked like the SCCA events averaged ~20% Novices (that knew to list themselves as Novice) and going through the results of each event, it looks like there were many others that only showed for a single event all season.

*



I guess my stance comes from the opinion that certain mods, while taking you into SP, realistically offer zero improvement at an autocross event.

Click to expand...

*I don't disagree with that, but I still think that you should run in the class that your mods put you into. One of the other BMWCCA chapters has a mod point system that looks interesting. Each car model starts with a base point value and each mod carries a specific value. Then, you add them all up and the cars are classed by point values. Provided that enough people agree on the PPM (points per mod) and the base values, that seems like a good way to go (although, I imagine that there are practical issues...OTOH, since classing at the local level is self policed anyway...)


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## Jetfire (Jun 20, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> *
> I don't disagree with that, but I still think that you should run in the class that your mods put you into. One of the other BMWCCA chapters has a mod point system that looks interesting. Each car model starts with a base point value and each mod carries a specific value. Then, you add them all up and the cars are classed by point values. Provided that enough people agree on the PPM (points per mod) and the base values, that seems like a good way to go (although, I imagine that there are practical issues...OTOH, since classing at the local level is self policed anyway...) *


The points system is an interesting one. Not necessarily better than what we've got, but a good attempt at being totally objective WRT mods. Too bad the point values have to be determined with some amount of subjectivity.

I do have an example of something that adds to your argument. At last Sunday's FedEx event, Dado showed up with his yellow M3. I didn't pay much attention to his runs...until I noticed that he was running in B-Stock! :lmao: The announcing booth was onto it; each run was prefaced by "...and here comes XXXXX, in his NOT-b stock M3...." Either he was unaware of the classification rules or he was trying to pull a Jetfire. In this case, I think his car most egregiously does NOT belong in stock. But perhaps he thought differently, which is why strict adherence is a good idea.

STILL, I don't think my M3 with a short shifter should be judged against Ron and his M3 with wheels/swaybars/springs/shocks/camber plates/racing seats/etc. Starting next season, though, I think I may just start running BSP in case I become a reasonable driver.


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