# AdBlue saga continues



## ERIK J (Feb 26, 2008)

I would just like to add something here, I dont own a 335d, but I work for VW and we use the addblue stuff here. Top ups are free for the first 36k miles at VW. Also, we sell half gallon "emergency" bottles.... they might have the same filler neck you guys need for yours.


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## railroader (Apr 12, 2010)

Stugots said:


> 10k on mine so far, and on the original tank... =/


I'm really interested to see of you can truly get up near the 15K mark or so, before your 
car's computer gives you the "NO START IN 992 MILES" message! Or something along
those lines...Stu- you seem to have gone farther than anyone, (at least among those posting 
in this thread) on your factory fill of DEF. Since I'm West Coast too, hopefully my car 
got the same nice brimming-full tank you got at the National Prep Center. Took the cap off today 
and had a look at the two filler spouts. The provided screwdriver handle looks like it will open them right up.

I wouldn't mind doing it myself, if it meant dodging some kind of $300 or more "fee."
That does seem like a ripoff-- what about the constant BMW ads- promising no maintenance charges for 4 years, yadayada...?:dunno:


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## Chrisdridley (Jun 29, 2009)

My DEF has lasted as long as the oil on all but one occasion where I had been in the shop for service about 4000 miles earlier and I can only assume that the DEF tank didn't get filled.
So far I am going between 11k and 13k miles between fill-ups/oil changes.


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## 62Lincoln (Sep 26, 2004)

railroader said:


> I wouldn't mind doing it myself, if it meant dodging some kind of $300 or more "fee."
> That does seem like a ripoff-- what about the constant BMW ads- promising no maintenance charges for 4 years, yadayada...?:dunno:


The only downside of going completely do it yourself is that the system needs to be flushed periodically (at the 15,000 mile oil changes?), and I'm not sure we do it ourselfers can do that properly. As for top offs between flushes, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't do that.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

A top off should not hurt when done between flushes but also should not be needed. I have yet to see someone state they made it to 15k miles for an oil change anyway but if the car by design has enough of this stuff to last 15k miles then a top off should only be needed if there is a problem. Problem can be some knucklehead did not top off the tank in the first place or some failure within the system.


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## railroader (Apr 12, 2010)

Certainly an interesting topic for us- it looks like new 335d's are being released from the Munich assembly plant with varying amounts of DEF in the tanks, between the individual cars. Our friend Stu is over 10K and maybe even approaching 13,000 by now with no dash notification. Others have seen the message as low as 4K. So there's no way to tell until we run up the miles with our respective machines.

Just for fun, I called my servicing/selling Center and asked what their policy was-- she said they actually had a 335d in the shops for fluid today; some guy's light had come on-- without actually promising they would absorb the cost of the DEF- she did say "we will do whatever we have to do to keep goodwill with our customers, but BMW generally does not cover the cost of replenishible fluids between the regular service intervals." Hmm, I agree they shouldn't have to pay for stuff like windshield wiper fluid, etc, if you use it all up in a month or two, but it'd be nice if they absorbed these $300 DEF fills. Sorry for the rambling post-- I'll be doing a 4K road trip in May and I'll see if my fluid lasts.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

railroader said:


> Certainly an interesting topic for us- it looks like new 335d's are being released from the Munich assembly plant with varying amounts of DEF in the tanks, between the individual cars.


Since DEF does have a somewhat limited life, generally pegged by most as between 12-24 months, it would make sense to ship with a limited amount of DEF in the system, and have the dealer fill it prior to delivery to the customer. Add up the time in transit to the dealer with the time the vehicle might sit on the dealers' lots, a good part of the DEF life could be gone prior to the customer's first drive. orta like not shipping with a full tank of gasoline or diesel fuel (though there are obvious safety reasons for that).

I wonder if filling with DEF is part of the pre-delivery process at the dealer, and if so, whether all of the dealers are actually doing it?


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Any one with ED who run out of DEF..... run sort? 
One would think that they fill it properly at the factory...I could do 15k miles in a month in EU..


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## JSpira (Oct 21, 2002)

I've brought this entire issue to the attention of the appropriate product mgr. at BMW NA and it will hopefully be addressed.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

tlak77 said:


> Any one with ED who run out of DEF..... run sort?
> One would think that they fill it properly at the factory...I could do 15k miles in a month in EU..


I assume an ED vehicle gets prepped differently than one that is headed to a boat with cosmoline on it, etc., i.e., an ED should get prepped as a U.S. dealer would, including addition of DEF... if that is part of dealer prep.


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## porsche123 (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm getting a couple of bottles of DEF from my dealer as a goodwill gesture and I will see if you can cut the bottom off them and use them to refill the tanks with DEF that you can buy at the TA truck stop for 4 dollars a gallon.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

JSpira said:


> I've brought this entire issue to the attention of the appropriate product mgr. at BMW NA and it will hopefully be addressed.


:thumbup: lets hope so


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## fonger (Jan 5, 2005)

porsche123 said:


> I'm getting a couple of bottles of DEF from my dealer as a goodwill gesture and I will see if you can cut the bottom off them and use them to refill the tanks with DEF that you can buy at the TA truck stop for 4 dollars a gallon.


I would be interested in know if this would work. The bwm bottle is designed to keep it from over filling(atleast that's what I heard). Since there's dipstick to check the level this would come very handy.

please keep us posted.


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## railroader (Apr 12, 2010)

Penguin said:


> I assume an ED vehicle gets prepped differently than one that is headed to a boat with cosmoline on it, etc., i.e., an ED should get prepped as a U.S. dealer would, including addition of DEF... if that is part of dealer prep.


Hi penguin- your use of the word "cosmoline" makes me think of .30/06 Garand rifles, packed in wooden boxes, heading off to the Pacific or European fronts! Is the stuff even used/available anymore? But still-- your point well taken...you know the powers-that-be must know that the trip over the salt water needs to be addressed properly.

As near as I can tell-- my Center delivers the "d" cars with _whatever amount of DEF_ that happens to be in the tank when they receive the cars. She used the excuse, "the cars are just so new, we're learning along with the customers..." or along those lines.
I'm planning a 4K trip next month and I do not want to see the DEF warning lite up out in Podunk-ville! To do it right-- I should really top it off or get them to do it. Maybe I'll ask them, in a nice way, so they don't get defensive. They were filling a '10 just yesterday-- wonder how many miles that guy got? They won't tell me...


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## nealh (Oct 4, 2003)

This issue is absurd. Any cost savings from better mpg is lost on having to refill the DEF early.($380!!!!). I was serious considering a 335d but unless this is addressed under the maintenance for "free refills" I will pass.


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## railroader (Apr 12, 2010)

Hi nealh- it looks like you have a pretty fantastic car already (from your sig line.) Were you thinking of putting a 335d into your stable as an additional car? Not that that is a bad idea!
I run multiple vehicles myself. Still, I wouldn't let just the def fluid issues cause you to not get one of these cars, since they are such great machines...

I'm not horribly worried about it either- lets start talking about how much fun this car is _to drive!_ But being that this is the DEF thread- I guess we'll bat that subject around a bit more. I did a great mountain run yesterday and got the car up to just under 6100 feet/altitude. She ran super in DS mode- staying right in the gear I wanted and very little riding of the brakes coming down the big grades. Mileage near 40 MPG, mixed up and down hill work. Yeah, I'm happy with the car!:thumbup:


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## nealh (Oct 4, 2003)

railroader said:


> Hi nealh- it looks like you have a pretty fantastic car already (from your sig line.) Were you thinking of putting a 335d into your stable as an additional car? Not that that is a bad idea!
> I run multiple vehicles myself. Still, I wouldn't let just the def fluid issues cause you to not get one of these cars, since they are such great machines...
> 
> I'm not horribly worried about it either- lets start talking about how much fun this car is _to drive!_ But being that this is the DEF thread- I guess we'll bat that subject around a bit more. I did a great mountain run yesterday and got the car up to just under 6100 feet/altitude. She ran super in DS mode- staying right in the gear I wanted and very little riding of the brakes coming down the big grades. Mileage near 40 MPG, mixed up and down hill work. Yeah, I'm happy with the car!:thumbup:


Thanks I love my 650i. Great car! It's a lease that is up in jan 2011. While I can get another 6, I am kinda feeling guilty on the gas consumption. There is a 100% chance that gas will be $4-5 in the future and i should do my part and getting a better mileage car.

I just had the nickle/dime crap on fluid issues. But ~$400 for this fluid seems absurd. Just my 2 cents.


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## porsche123 (Apr 5, 2010)

I called BMW NA again today, it's down to once a week now, and they still have not called back with an answer to the question: Is DEF top up covered under the service agreement for new cars? Its either yes or no...shouldn't be the difficult! I've been calling for 4 weeks now.


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## railroader (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks for going to bat for us, P-123. And nealh- yes/ I see your point. Even if you are getting better mileage, and not
having to put in as much fuel over the long run, this advantage is kind of erased if you factor in some expensive exotic chemical
that must be added. You know the car will technically disable itself if you let the meter run all the way down? Apparently it 
starts counting down around 992 miles- so it does give you quite a while to fill 'er up. I think my Center will pay for the top offs,
as well as the main fill when needed. Think of the bad public relations - don't think they want their customers completely alienated!
We'll see-- I'm not there yet. But some long trips are in the offing for me, including a SoCal/Illinois RT next month, I hope.

I think I need something to protect the front of the car from bugs, rock chips, etc. since I'll be on the superslabs...try to keep bugs out of the 
various heat exchangers, too-- with some sort of cover that still allows good air flow.


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## porsche123 (Apr 5, 2010)

We'll be filming our Discovery TV show, Chasing Classic Cars, at Cars&Coffee on May 15th. Its held at the Ford Design Center in Irvine from 6:30 to 10 or so. Its a great event if you're near the area. We'll be driving a 1957 BMC support vehicle.


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## lalitkanteti (Nov 15, 2009)

Snipe656 said:


> I'd take it in, a gremlin in the system could in theory result in the car not even starting again because it thinks it is out. Sounds like yours thought it was low and more than likely is not. Does not seem like a gremlin I'd want to live with.


+1

Take it to dealer and get it checked and also buy small refill (0.5 gallon) just in case you plan to go on long trip. 
On my first service I asked my dealer about concerns many owners have and few incidents people have had on low mileage...and they assured me that they filled both tanks as they emptied 7 gallons into it. They also told me that they have just 2 variants that they get from BMW- 7 gallon and 0.5 gallon and they suggested to buy 0.5 gallon for my mental peace which I did for $20.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

*Summary*

I reviewed this thread and this is what I see. I am not a lawyer. I am an anally-pedantic software engineer.

* The character of the discussion has at times seemed out of proportion with the real cost of the driving issue: are DEF top off included? Also, it seems to be the case that relatively few cars have had issues. Most of those issues were shortly after delivery, where we speculate the tanks were erroneously not full at delivery.

* Thanks to those seeking clarification from BMWNA.

* The language about changing DEF only during service intervals clearly says that changes will not be performed outside of regular service intervals. IMO it does not make a viable "fine print" claim about topping off DEF.

* A USA press release does state that DEF top offs are included under the BMW Maintenance Program.

* An attempt to deny DEF top offs under the maintenance program could play into a claim of false advertising.

* BMWNA _should_ clarify the language. If they don't then clarification might happen with the assistance of the judicial system, but in that case no one would really win, and it does seem unlikely that anyone would bother with an attempt at a legal remedy as DEF is inexpensive. It's better if BMWNA proactively clarifies this confusion which was created, maybe unintentionally, by suboptimal language in material published by BMWNA.

* A good dealer may be likely to keep the customer happy under "good will" by doing a DEF top off anyway.

* I continue to maintain that I am not opposed to doing my own DEF top offs, but only if there is an affordable and supported way of refilling with commodity DEF. I also think my dealer is likely to do a good will top off should I require one while I am still covered by the maintenance program. I do not expect to require a DEF top off.


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## Penguin (Aug 31, 2003)

autoJeff said:


> I reviewed this thread and this is what I see....


Excellent summary.

To my mind the most frustrating thing is the lack of clarification from BMW NA.

But, frankly speaking, BMW NA is unquestionably incompetent.

I, and several other people, have notified BMW NA in writing (e-mails) that they are showing the wrong tax credit number for the 2010 35d in their website "build your own" section. BMW NA is showing a $900 credit, while the actual credit is $1,800, which is shown in other parts of their web site. They are telling their customers that the tax credit is only half of what it actually is.

Yet, months later, the incorrect understatement of the 35d tax credit remains on their website.

You have to be quite incompetent to continue to tell your potential customers that the 35d is $900 more expensive than it really is, despite many people informing you of the error.

Clearly communication within BMW NA has some major problems, and the Management seems to be very disconnected from the customers and the real World.

Had to figure out why BMW NA is so dysfunctional.


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## DrMooCow (May 31, 2004)

I've never had any luck when dealing with BMW NA. As matter of fact I can't stand them. If I want good service, I'll go buy a Lexus. 

Since I like the way BMW drives, I will keep buying them even though I don't expect much customer service out of this company. Maybe they'll change one day, who knows. At least I know how they are beforehand lol.


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## tlak77 (Aug 5, 2009)

Today, I sopped by VW dealer with intention of purchasing 0.5 gallon of AdBlue (wanted to verify that the bottle works with our DEF valve) unfortunately VW did not have 0.5 gallon bottle in stack. Although they had 2.5 gallon container, no adapter, with the price of 13.95. Price at VW is comparable to the price anyone can get DEF at truck stops, and it beats BMW dealer price of reported around 40 per 0.5 bottle. I'll try stopping by Audi dealer and see if they have 0.5 gallon bottle since I really want to know if the bottle has exact the same fitting as one offered by BMW.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

In the super size 335d thread
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5141122#post5141122
listerone points out a consumer reports article
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/ca...-bit-adblue-over-spending-a-lot-of-green.html
where CR was charged $317 by a Mercedes dealer to add 7.5 gallons of AdBlue to a GL320.

The article says that CR changed their own oil. Then at 16k miles the car indicated it was low on DEF.

$241.50 parts and the rest was labor plus tax. That works out to $32.2 per gallon in parts cost. Assuming 8% sales tax it's just over $50 labor.

A dealer charging $50 for labor to fill DEF seems reasonable.
Given numbers posted here for VW DEF and truckstop DEF, $32.2 per gallon is quite high.

Reminds me of purchasing tires from a dealer vs. doing tires at a reputable mechanic. For a mounted pair of OEM summer performance RFT's a couple local mechanics quoted me approx. $90 over tire rack price. (They actually said "over tire rack price", let me choose the tires, and have them delivered to the garage.) The dealer wants an additional $200 over that. Dealer labor is not that much more expensive than non-dealer labor.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I still am baffled at them getting that done at the Benz dealer for that low of a labor rate. I pay $110 per hour at the Benz dealer and I think $125 per hour at the BMW. Independent Benz mechanic is $80 per hour for me and they do work on BMW cars as well. I still think it took an hour of a mechanics time to do the adblue on that Benz. Heck my 335d took over an hour for them to drain and fill the system but I et the car ha at least 50% def in it.


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## autoJeff (Oct 1, 2009)

I assume $50 means CC was charged for 1/2 hour labor.


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## taibanl (Oct 3, 2010)

tlak77 said:


> porsche123, little suggestion if you want to achieve something dealing in this manner contact a lawyer. Ask him to writ a letter on your behave and have him send it to BMW NA (It will cost you). Even then you probably will not get much in return, they may pay for your DEF fill up, but they will not admit to anything. Make it official my fiend, phone calls are useless.
> Good luck
> T


I know someone who happens to be a lawyer (me...although its not my current job :-/). I hope to get some resolution for us.

IF this applies to you, please post in my "Have you had early DEF warning?" thread


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

Yesterday my D poped up a warning that the DEF is low and I have 1,600KM to drive.
I had the last oil change in Nov @ 34,000KM and 5 months later with around 10,000 KM driven the D ran out of DEF. My onboard computer says my next oil change is not due for another 12,000 KM.

This morning I called my dealership and got an appointment to bring it in at 4 PM.
I stood by in the service bay and watch the Techs refilling the DEF.
The D is hooked up to their computer which displays the % of DEF in real time and you can see when the Passive & Active tanks are full.

The Tech showed me BMW's special nozzel/tube which attached to a tank that he is supposed to use to refill the tanks but said it's not easy to use and too slow.
Instead he use a funnel which he inserted into the D and pour the DEF into it.
It also took a long time to fill as my DEF was practically empty.
It was interesting to watch the computer displaying the level of the DEF.

The whole procedure took 1.5 hours!
So if we were to pay for the DEF refills we can expect $200~300 if you factor in labour costs!

The Tech said quite a few X5 35Ds and 335d have to be refilled prematurely.

Here in Canada the refilled are FREE within the first 80,000 KM.


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## rmorin49 (Jan 7, 2007)

DC-IT said:


> Yesterday my D poped up a warning that the DEF is low and I have 1,600KM to drive.
> I had the last oil change in Nov @ 34,000KM and 5 months later with around 10,000 KM driven the D ran out of DEF. My onboard computer says my next oil change is not due for another 12,000 KM.
> 
> This morning I called my dealership and got an appointment to bring it in at 4 PM.
> ...


Did they fill your DEF tank at your 34K km oil change? If not, why?


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

That's another story....
At the 34,000KM scheduled oil change they forgot to refill the DEF and 2 days after the DEF low warning came on and I called to have it done which they did as I was led to believe.
I emailed a complaint to the Service Manager and he emailed me to apologized and assured me that this won't happen again.

Then now 5 months after that the DEF has run dry again.
The Tech told me it is quite common with the BMW Diesels and it depends on how you drive and other conditions.

I do tend to drive the D hard to enjoy the torque and performance.
Despite that the FE is still very impressive.

Today as I watched they used up 2# bottles of 2.5 gallons AdBlue.
Watching them do the job I don't think I'll bother to do it myself as they did spill some of the urea on the floor and it's a pain to get it into the tanks.

Also we would not have the ability to know when it's full without hooking up to the BMW computer.

The Tech had to rock the D quite a few times to try and get it to 100% and said usually air trapped inside would prevent the tank from filling up and the rocking of the car is an attempt to get the tnak to burp!LOL!

It stayed at 68% for a long time and refused to reach 100%.
Finally he took the D for a spin to get the level to reflect the correct reading!

I am beginning to feel that our D's design for refilling the DEF is flawed.
It should be as simple as pumping gas/diesel.

Thank goodness my new Jetta TDI does not need DEF!


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## dunderhi (Dec 10, 2006)

You now know how the mechanic does it. It's pretty easy and really cheap if you use 2.5 gallon jugs with a funnel and do it yourself.


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

dunderhi said:


> You now know how the mechanic does it. It's pretty easy and really cheap if you use 2.5 gallon jugs with a funnel and do it yourself.


The 2.5 gals jugs are too heavy and one Tech has to hold the funnel while the other pours the DEF.
If we are able to refill ourself any idea how do we rest the onboard computer to eliminate the warning or does it reset automatically?


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## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

Hey all,

I have read many threads regarding this DEF, AdBlue or urea depletion that many had suffered. I am sort of anticipating my 1st DEF warning however my 2011 335d makes it through 1st schedule oil change without DEF warning. Do you think BMW has done some improvement on model year 2011+ ?


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## DC-IT (Sep 27, 2009)

bayoucity said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I have read many threads regarding this DEF, AdBlue or urea depletion that many had suffered. I am sort of anticipating my 1st DEF warning however my 2011 335d makes it through 1st schedule oil change without DEF warning. Do you think BMW has done some improvement on model year 2011+ ?


I doubt it. My 2010 D made it through 2 scheduled oil changes without requiiring any top-up of the DEF in between oil change.

But 5 months after the second oil change the DEF tanks ran dry!


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## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

porsche123 said:


> I created and produce Chasing Classic Cars which airs on Discovery HD Theater. We are currently in production for season 3.


Hello, I just wanted to say I greatly admire your creativity, writing & filming of Wayne Carini's wheeling & dealing with classic high dollar vehicles. I have been hooked watching your shows on HDNet (here on at&t uverse channel 1102). It is one of the few programs I actually look forward to watch late at night when kids are in bed. Sometimes, my spouse gets mad with me for channel surfing topgear, Mecum auto auction, Chasing Classic Cars, Into the Pride, Wheeler Dealers & so on. Keep it up !

I'm sort of hoping Wayne Carini will try to bid on auto union chassis #19. 

If you or your team are ever down here in Houston area, please feel free to PM me. I'll throw you all a good party. :thumbup:


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

DC-IT said:


> I doubt it. My 2010 D made it through 2 scheduled oil changes without requiiring any top-up of the DEF in between oil change.
> 
> But 5 months after the second oil change the DEF tanks ran dry!


When I read these things, it sometimes makes me wonder if mechanics just got tired of waiting on the proper way to top off the cars so stopped the machine prematurely. I think my biggest beef with the cars is a complete lack of a way for us to know a rough DEF level in both tanks.


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## bayoucity (Jun 11, 2010)

What is DEF warning like? Is it SES light or an unique symbol? Just curious.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

bayoucity said:


> What is DEF warning like? Is it SES light or an unique symbol? Just curious.


Shows up on the center screen between the tach and speedometer. It is very persistent too, impossible to miss.


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