# are you a street racer?



## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

I was wondering how you guys feel about street racing. It seems to me that BMW drivers in North America tend to be less interested in racing and performance upgrades than the ones in Europe (esp. England and Germany)... state your opinion and support or oppose this hypothesis.


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## safetywork (Dec 10, 2003)

Bart325i said:


> I was wondering how you guys feel about street racing. It seems to me that BMW drivers in North America tend to be less interested in racing and performance upgrades than the ones in Europe (esp. England and Germany)... state your opinion and support or oppose this hypothesis.


Drivers in the US may not be interested in performance upgrades as much as our counterparts in Europe or other parts of the world but it doesn't mean we don't enjoy driving quickly. As for street racing, in my humble opinion, is just dumb. Too dangerous in most cases and illegal in all situations. If you enjoy driving quickly, why not join BMW Club of America where you can compete in a safe environment against cars that are set up just like the one you drive. Driver against driver, in similarly setup cars and in similar driving environments. Best of all, its safe and legal.

The other thing about performance upgrades in the US vs. the RoW (Rest of the World), we have speed limits here. Upgrading cars when your daily drives prevents you from using the upgrades is a bit wasteful. Of course if you take yours to the track, its a different story.


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

Bart325i said:


> It seems to me that BMW drivers in North America tend to be less interested in racing and performance upgrades than the ones in Europe (esp. England and Germany)...


Is that really true? It could be, but the only anecdotal evididence I have is when I visit some of the other BMW oriented message boards. I'm always surprised by the number of people who sink big bucks into performance mods for their BMWs.

Alex


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## eksath (Apr 4, 2003)

BahnBaum said:


> Is that really true? It could be, but the only anecdotal evididence I have is when I visit some of the other BMW oriented message boards. I'm always surprised by the number of people who sink big bucks into performance mods for their BMWs.
> 
> Alex


but...having perfermonce mods does NOT mean they street race. Acura and Hinda owners seem more prone for this... if you see the resepective message boards you see the "kill " claims...The jap car owners seem to far outnumber the BMW streetracers...just my observation...it is not scientific..


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

I think other boards have BMW owners who talk more about aesthetic and performance modding and "kills." I wouldn't use Bimmerfest as a representative sample.

But to answer your poll, I chose the last option.


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## bavarian19 (May 11, 2003)

I find street racing irresponsible.

If your going to race, dont do it on an open road where you are putting others in danger. There was a thread a couple weeks ago that got deleted that would be a fine example of showing how many people on this board felt about it.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Street racers should be castrated.


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

I do not race "for the hell of it". However, if some bas*ard in a Civic with a fart-can eyes me, he will promptly be smoked. However that will ONLY happen if I am on a street with at least 2 lanes in each direction. Furthermore, I always take position in the left lane so as to avoid possible objects/people lurking from the right (sidewalk, bikes, parked cars, kids, etc).

Needless to say, I personally do not give anyone the eye, so I don't start these races. However, occasionally I DO BELIEVE that the "*****s" need to be reminded that after all, they are only driving a Civic...


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bavarian said:


> I do not race "for the hell of it". However, if some bas*ard in a Civic with a fart-can eyes me, he will promptly be smoked. However that will ONLY happen if I am on a street with at least 2 lanes in each direction. Furthermore, I always take position in the left lane so as to avoid possible objects/people lurking from the right (sidewalk, bikes, parked cars, kids, etc).
> 
> Needless to say, I personally do not give anyone the eye, so I don't start these races. However, occasionally I DO BELIEVE that the "*****s" need to be reminded that after all, they are only driving a Civic...


 That's what one would expect from someone like you.


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

Bavarian said:


> I do not race "for the hell of it". However, if some bas*ard in a Civic with a fart-can eyes me, he will promptly be smoked. However that will ONLY happen if I am on a street with at least 2 lanes in each direction. Furthermore, I always take position in the left lane so as to avoid possible objects/people lurking from the right (sidewalk, bikes, parked cars, kids, etc).
> 
> Needless to say, I personally do not give anyone the eye, so I don't start these races. However, occasionally I DO BELIEVE that the "*****s" need to be reminded that after all, they are only driving a Civic...


Wow - read your post twice - couldn't believe it. You actually race on roads with kids, parked cars, etc? Not even on the highway - which is bad enough...

I guess you are supremely confident to be able to avoid "lurking" parked cars and kids. 
Yeah, those kids sure do lurk. Damn kids... too many of them anyway. And those parked cars too. I must say I never saw a sidewalk lurk. They all seem to me (so far) very stationary and without lurking potential.

Your behavior is irresponsible, illegal (for good reason), dangerous, selfish, and immature. It is dangerous enough out there without nut jobs racing.

You and the "eyeballer" are not the only ones on the road. If you have chosen to prematurely remove yourself from the gene pool - so be it. But to do it in a public place where you could kill others or damage property is inexcusable.

I can see the scenario - "Officer - he eyeballed me - I had no choice..."

Hopefully you will stop or get caught before you hurt someone or yourself. A car (on a public road) is not a toy or a tool to measure yourself against others - go to a track if you are so inclined. 
This sort of behavior is nothing to brag about. That you are - is very telling.

Perhaps you are just trolling. :thumbdwn:


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## stsmytherie (May 8, 2003)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Street racers should be castrated.


 :thumbup:


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

People who street race have small pen*s. 'Nuff said.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

The HACK said:


> People who street race have small pen*s. 'Nuff said.


I don't know that street racing is any worse than driving particularly aggressively on highways, etc.

Actually, I dislike the latter more than the former (but still dislike both).


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

paulg, don't you have anything better to do than flame individuals? If you don't like what somebody else is doing, move on, and ignore it. I couldn't care less if you raced or not - that's not my business.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bavarian said:


> paulg, don't you have anything better to do than flame individuals? If you don't like what somebody else is doing, move on, and ignore it. I couldn't care less if you raced or not - that's not my business.


 I think your Mom would like to know that you've been street racing in her car.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Bavarian said:


> paulg, don't you have anything better to do than flame individuals? If you don't like what somebody else is doing, move on, and ignore it. I couldn't care less if you raced or not - that's not my business.


Flaming aside, I think people are just trying to convey the point that street racing disproportionately endangers yourself and others. In other words, the uncool part is that you're putting others at risk.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Street racers should be castrated.


 :thumbup:

Performance mods does not equal street racing. A lot of folk are into autocross or track.


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

Bavarian said:


> paulg, don't you have anything better to do than flame individuals? If you don't like what somebody else is doing, move on, and ignore it. I couldn't care less if you raced or not - that's not my business.


Don't know which post you read but I didn't write that I race.

Interesting that you protest my post but aren't complaining about those who suggest castration and comments about size of reproductive organs as relates to street racing.
Those are definitely flames - not that I am complaining about their flame quotient.
I guess a meaningful comment against street racing is more threatening to you than a true flame. I understand.

Oops. gotta go. There's a sidewalk lurking outside... :rofl:


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

*Guys don't get personal...*

This is a pole and an opportunity to share your view... whoever is posting offensive lines has obviously a problem him/herself  (At the very least a communication problem). 
Why don't you restrain from personal remarks when you post your opinion and if you oppose an opinion just stick to constructive criticism. This is by far a more powerful (and sometimes the only) way to convey your point of view to other people.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Bart325i said:


> This is a pole and an opportunity to share your view... whoever is posting offensive lines has obviously a problem him/herself  (At the very least a communication problem).
> Why don't you restrain from personal remarks when you post your opinion and if you oppose an opinion just stick to constructive criticism. This is by far a more powerful (and sometimes the only) way to convey your point of view to other people.


We're trying to show the invalidity of Option #2. Racing is never safe. The only responsible way to do it is on the track, where you only endanger yourself and other people who have chosen to be there.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

The Roadstergal said:


> We're trying to show the invalidity of Option #2. Racing is never safe. The only responsible way to do it is on the track, where you only endanger yourself and other people who have chosen to be there.


I agree that Option 2 seems to be invalid at first. But consider well organized street races that take place far from personal properties e.g. on long entrances to factories or their like. On a Saturday or Sunday, these roads become almost "closed courses". That's what Option 2 stands for. 
Clearly I do NOT support reckless street racing, but I do think there are ways to carry it out without endangering others.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Bart,

the opinion on this board is that we don't approve any kind of street racing in any form. It is very normal that some members are getting personal, because they have a family and children. Anyone who is street racing is putting the lives of those loved ones in danger.



> Why don't you restrain from personal remarks when you post your opinion and if you oppose an opinion just stick to constructive criticism. This is by far a more powerful (and sometimes the only) way to convey your point of view to other people.


Where have you seen/heard that street racing is approved or applauded ? What kind of an acknowledgement were you looking that you have even put this topic on a poll ?



> but I do think there are ways to carry it out without endangering others.


I strongly disagree. There are already alternatives for it (auto-x, closed tracks). No need to do it on the streets.


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

The Roadstergal said:


> We're trying to show the invalidity of Option #2. Racing is never safe. The only responsible way to do it is on the track, where you only endanger yourself and other people who have chosen to be there.


I am reacting to this whole street racing topic because I am sincerely against it. Got onto the highway a few months ago - went up to cruise speed and a bike passed me at what looked like 120mph+ with a Caddilac SUV in hot pursuit. Mind you, this is in an urban area (SF Bay) during commute time - There were dozens of cars all around. At the last moment the biker made a very drastic lane change and looked like he was going to plow right into another car. The SUV followed and they drove out of sight. I don't know if this was road rage or racing - maybe a little of both.
I know what 120 - 140 mph looks like having driven on the Autobahn for 3 years. The sad fact is that our roads (in the USA) are simply not safe for high speeds - they were not designed for it and other drivers are not prepared for someone zooming by 60mph faster.

This sort of lunacy has no place on public roads in the USA. The sad thing is I am seeing it more and more these days.

Racing is cool and a valid sport - but this game has no place on public roads - it is simply not fair to put pedestrians and other non participating motorists... and the police at risk because someone wants to prove that their car is faster than the next guys.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> the opinion on this board is that we don't approve any kind of street racing in any form. It is very normal that some members are getting personal, because they have a family and children. Anyone who is street racing is putting the lives of those loved ones in danger.
> 
> Where have you seen/heard that street racing is approved or applauded ? What kind of an acknowledgement were you looking that you have even put this topic on a poll ?


To be fair to Bart, people on this board did applaud SLO_Town (or whatever his username is) for what he did for his blind son. And if he was applauded for driving fast on an empty, deserted stretch of road, I don't really see why racing on the same empty, deserted stretch of road is any worse.

However, I will say that there are rarely roads where you can truly tell that they are empty and deserted and that they will remain so for the duration of the race. And besides, the stereotypical street racers probably don't take such care to consider others.

In any case, I agree that rude, personal attacks have no place anywhere, whether on this board or anywhere else in life.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

swchang said:


> To be fair to Bart, people on this board did applaud SLO_Town (or whatever his username is) for what he did for his blind son. And if he was applauded for driving fast on an empty, deserted stretch of road, I don't really see why racing on the same empty, deserted stretch of road is any worse.
> 
> However, I will say that there are rarely roads where you can truly tell that they are empty and deserted and that they will remain so for the duration of the race. And besides, the stereotypical street racers probably don't take such care to consider others.
> 
> In any case, I agree that rude, personal attacks have no place anywhere, whether on this board or anywhere else in life.


First of all, not everyone, who replied to that thread, did applaud what he did. Secondly, he was not street racing.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

Bavarian said:


> However that will ONLY happen if I am on a street with at least 2 lanes in each direction. Furthermore, I always take position in the left lane so as to avoid possible objects/people lurking from the right (sidewalk, bikes, parked cars, kids, etc).


That's great that you do your best to cover your own ass, but what about the other guy? So you take the left lane, but the other guy takes the right lane, and since he "eyeballed" you in the first place, probably has the aggressive/reckless streak anyway. *How do you minimize the other guy's risk of hitting people?* Even though you might not kill someone, the other guy might, and you'd be an accessory by giving him the race in the first place. (Seriously, in a court of law, you'd probably be charged with that.)



> However, occasionally I DO BELIEVE that the "*****s" need to be reminded that after all, they are only driving a Civic...


Why? :dunno:


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Alex Baumann said:


> Bart,
> 
> the opinion on this board is that we don't approve any kind of street racing in any form. It is very normal that some members are getting personal, because they have a family and children. Anyone who is street racing is putting the lives of those loved ones in danger.
> 
> ...


Again...I clearly disagree to any kind of racing that is not safe to non-participants.
This is not a matter of being approved and applauded. I merely stated that there IS a way of making it safe. The problem is that street racing as it is seen by many people is the dangerous kind. Non-participants will ONLY see the irresponsible and dangerous side of street racing since that's the only kind they CAN see. The (for the non racing people) safe racing will never be seen by them since it is carried out at places where there IS nobody to see it. Hence I am not surprised that many people are angry about it... but they just don't realize that there is another side to all that...

[BTW: Hubraum KANN man mit was anderem ersetzen.... Turbolader  ]


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> First of all, not everyone, who replied to that thread, did applaud what he did. Secondly, he was not street racing.


I personally think that a car moving at 130MPH is more dangerous than a car accellerating from a stop to like 60MPH...

Of course, a car at 60MPH in the city is quite dangerous since there are lots of pedestrians, and more vehicles.

On the other hand, a car at 130MPH is arguably even more dangerous since at that speed neither the occupants of that car, not anyone else involved in a collision with a sucha vehicle stands a chance at coming out alive...


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> Again...I clearly disagree to any kind of racing that is not safe to non-participants.
> This is not a matter of being approved and applauded. I merely stated that there IS a way of making it safe. The problem is that street racing as it is seen by many people is the dangerous kind. Non-participants will ONLY see the irresponsible and dangerous side of street racing since that's the only kind they CAN see. The (for the non racing people) safe racing will never be seen by them since it is carried out at places where there IS nobody to see it. Hence I am not surprised that many people are angry about it... but they just don't realize that there is another side to all that...
> 
> [BTW: Hubraum KANN man mit was anderem ersetzen.... Turbolader  ]


As long as it is done on places, which are prepared and secured for that particular purpose, i.e. racing, I don't think that anyone would have a problem with it.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

I assume that by street racing you mean drag racing from one red light to another and I simply can't imagine why would anyone wanna do that, especially in their daily driven cars? Would anyone care to explain it to me? Maybe Rooster...er, Bavarian?


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> I agree that Option 2 seems to be invalid at first. But consider well organized street races that take place far from personal properties e.g. on long entrances to factories or their like. On a Saturday or Sunday, these roads become almost "closed courses". That's what Option 2 stands for.
> Clearly I do NOT support reckless street racing, but I do think there are ways to carry it out without endangering others.


 Unless it's a closed circuit, it's not safe. Now, if you can get a street closed off. PROPERLY closed off, with security to keep pedestrians and others away, I have NO problems with a bit of racing. Anyone at a closed event understands the risks and accepts them. THAT is why illegal street racing is bad.

If street racers only killed other street racers, I'd rev everyone at the stop lights. Then they could launch and promptly clear themselves off of my roads. Unfortunately, these *******s kill lots of other people, which is why street racing is utterly unacceptable.

And as for my other comments regarding a certain poster... Well, they mostly have to do with the fact that there is considerable evidence that he doesn't even have his license yet.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Unless it's a closed circuit, it's not safe. Now, if you can get a street closed off. PROPERLY closed off, with security to keep pedestrians and others away, I have NO problems with a bit of racing. Anyone at a closed event understands the risks and accepts them. THAT is why illegal street racing is bad.


That is exactly what I meant... :thumbup:



Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> If street racers only killed other street racers, I'd rev everyone at the stop lights. Then they could launch and promptly clear themselves off of my roads. Unfortunately, these *******s kill lots of other people, which is why street racing is utterly unacceptable.


... but why put such aggressive statements in a forum... :dunno: and ahm "YOUR roads"?


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

The consequences of street racing are why our insurance premiums increase...a few bad apples ruin it for safe drivers. :tsk:


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

F1Crazy said:


> I assume that by street racing you mean drag racing from one red light to another and I simply can't imagine why would anyone wanna do that, especially in their daily driven cars? Would anyone care to explain it to me? Maybe Rooster...er, Bavarian?


Racing is a reoccurring stopping and accelerating while trying to get from point A to point B in the shortest time possible following a predefined route.
Is that a good enough definition? 

And nobody said you have to use your daily car...


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## Motown328 (Jun 4, 2003)

The last time I street-raced was in my brand-new Knight Rider Big Wheel with the 180-degree turn crank....man, that was innovation at its best in the 80's!!! :thumbup:


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> That is exactly what I meant... :thumbup:
> 
> ... but why put such aggressive statements in a forum... :dunno: and ahm "YOUR roads"?


 Why? Because I'd genuinely like to see street racers kill themselves off without harming anyone else. I've said so to a few people IN PERSON, and I see no reason not to say something I'd say to someone's face on a forum. Given how much that bothers you, I'm just going to have to assume you like street racing.

And you said "almost closed courses." That is ABSOLUTELY NOT the same thing.


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## pintnight (Mar 19, 2002)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Street racers should be castrated.


 :stupid:


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## pintnight (Mar 19, 2002)

The HACK said:


> People who street race have small pen*s. 'Nuff said.


 :stupid:

:bustingup


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Bart325i said:


> Racing is a reoccurring stopping and accelerating while trying to get from point A to point B in the shortest time possible following a predefined route.
> Is that a good enough definition?
> 
> And nobody said you have to use your daily car...


While I understand what racing means I don't know why would you wanna do it on the street? Give me an answer or don't quote my posts if you have nothing to say.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

F1Crazy said:


> While I understand what racing means I don't know why would you wanna do it on the street? Give me an answer or don't quote my posts if you have nothing to say.


 The obvious answer is that Bart is a street racer who is now looking for support. Fortunately, he's not getting it.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Why? Because I'd genuinely like to see street racers kill themselves off without harming anyone else. I've said so to a few people IN PERSON, and I see no reason not to say something I'd say to someone's face on a forum. Given how much that bothers you, I'm just going to have to assume you like street racing.


You are free to assume what you want.  The reason the "killing" remarks bother me is because it is just aggressive talk and nothing else, and it creates arguments instead of solving the problem. If you actually want to do something about illegal street racing you should get up and actually DO something (or post reasons and arguments) instead posting aggressive (and useless) comments.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> You are free to assume what you want.  The reason the "killing" remarks bother me is because it is just aggressive talk and nothing else, and it creates arguments instead of solving the problem. If you actually want to do something about illegal street racing you should get up and actually DO something (or post reasons and arguments) instead posting aggressive (and useless) comments.


 And what exactly am I supposed to do about it? Get out on the streets and do the vigilante thing? If I could, I'd happily go cruising for street racers with a shotgun. Sadly, the legal barriers to citizen execution are sufficiently high that all I can do is tell street racers that I hope they kill themselves without taking anyone else out. 

The fact of the matter is that the ONLY way street racers will stop racing is if they kill or cripple themselves. And I'm against crippling because it's damned expensive to the tax payer.


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## LarryN (Dec 24, 2001)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> The obvious answer is that Bart is a street racer who is now looking for support. Fortunately, he's not getting it.


Except from cockadoodledoo boy


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Bart325i said:


> You are free to assume what you want.  The reason the "killing" remarks bother me is because it is just aggressive talk and nothing else, and it creates arguments instead of solving the problem. If you actually want to do something about illegal street racing you should get up and actually DO something (or post reasons and arguments) instead posting aggressive (and useless) comments.


So the fact that innocent people get killed and property is damaged all too often is not a reason for you? Unless you completely block the road to traffic converting it to a closed street track there is no such thing as safe street racing.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

LarryN said:


> Except from cockadoodledoo boy


 Yes, but unlicensed 15 year olds hardly count, do they?


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

F1Crazy said:


> While I understand what racing means I don't know why would you wanna do it on the street? Give me an answer or don't quote my posts if you have nothing to say.


Oh well, you obviously didn't quite understand my point...


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

http://nhra.com/2004/news/march/030201.html

http://best.enigmati.ca/trans-action/200202/0203.html

http://www.streetracing.com/news/newsview.asp?id=98

http://www.newschannel9.com/vnews/topstories/1060118280

http://www.techweasel.com/sddragracing/news_archive.htm

http://www.thesandiegochannel.com/news/1990745/detail.html


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> And what exactly am I supposed to do about it? Get out on the streets and do the vigilante thing? If I could, I'd happily go cruising for street racers with a shotgun. Sadly, the legal barriers to citizen execution are sufficiently high that all I can do is tell street racers that I hope they kill themselves without taking anyone else out.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that the ONLY way street racers will stop racing is if they kill or cripple themselves. And I'm against crippling because it's damned expensive to the tax payer.


Boy, there are some really intelligent people out there... 
...you know, there are actually other ways of solving problems than a shotgun


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> Boy, there are some really intelligent people out there...
> ...you know, there are actually other ways of solving problems than a shotgun


 According to some tests, I'm a genius. 

But in all seriousness, if you think you're so intelligent, how would YOU go about stopping street racing?


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Alex Baumann said:


> http://nhra.com/2004/news/march/030201.html
> 
> http://best.enigmati.ca/trans-action/200202/0203.html
> 
> ...


Thank you Alex. That's about the first useful input on that subject. Maybe Nick should take an example here... you CAN do something against dangerous street racing in a moderate and constructive way :thumbup:


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## pintnight (Mar 19, 2002)

Bart325i said:


> Thank you Alex. That's about the first useful input on that subject. Maybe Nick should take an example here... you CAN do something against dangerous street racing in a moderate and constructive way :thumbup:


Yes, take it to the track. Not on public roads.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> Thank you Alex. That's about the first useful input on that subject. Maybe Nick should take an example here... you CAN do something against dangerous street racing in a moderate and constructive way :thumbup:


 Nah, you just don't quite understand the problem. When a person thinks he's invincible, articles like those are meaningless. The only people who actually listen to them wouldn't street race in the first place.

As a consequence, more drastic measures are the only way you actually can stop street racing.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> According to some tests, I'm a genius.


I am not surprised :thumbup:



Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> But in all seriousness, if you think you're so intelligent, how would YOU go about stopping street racing?


See Alex's post above...


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## LarryN (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> Thank you Alex. That's about the first useful input on that subject.


True, congrats to Alex for pointing those out to Bart, and maybe he won't kill others (or himself) by reading them, and learning from it.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> I am not surprised :thumbup:
> 
> See Alex's post above...


 See my post above.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> Nah, you just don't quite understand the problem. When a person thinks he's invincible, articles like those are meaningless. The only people who actually listen to them wouldn't street race in the first place.
> 
> As a consequence, more drastic measures are the only way you actually can stop street racing.


Yes, I agree there are certain people you cannot convince even with the best arguements and examples... but what do you think would be a more drastic measure that would work? (please don't start the shotgun talk again)


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> Yes, I agree there are certain people you cannot convince even with the best arguements and examples... but what do you think would be a more drastic measure that would work? (please don't start the shotgun talk again)


 There are no anti-street racing measures that will prove effective without unacceptable damage to the rights of non-street racing citizens. I very much liked the law passed in one jurisdiction in CA that stated that the cars of anyone caught street racing would be seized and auctioned off. The only problem is that this sort of thing is entirely too subject to abuse.

As a result, I am simply forced to return to my original statement that that only thing _I_ can do about street racers is to tell them that I hope they permanently end their driving career without harming anyone else.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

LarryN said:


> True, congrats to Alex for pointing those out to Bart, and maybe he won't kill others (or himself) by reading them, and learning from it.


I don't think you can kill anybody by reading articles  
But jokes about grammar aside... 
if my previous posts don't make it obvious that I completely disagree with reckless driving; I would like to point it out once more here.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

Nick325xiT 5spd said:


> There are no anti-street racing measures that will prove effective without unacceptable damage to the rights of non-street racing citizens. I very much liked the law passed in one jurisdiction in CA that stated that the cars of anyone caught street racing would be seized and auctioned off. The only problem is that this sort of thing is entirely too subject to abuse.
> 
> As a result, I am simply forced to return to my original statement that that only thing _I_ can do about street racers is to tell them that I hope they permanently end their driving career without harming anyone else.


The law used in CA seems like a good idea, even though like you said it WOULD be subject to abuse... do you know when this law was passed and do you have any statistics about whether street racing decreased afterwards?


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## rruiter (Feb 10, 2004)

safetywork said:


> Drivers in the US may not be interested in performance upgrades as much as our counterparts in Europe or other parts of the world but it doesn't mean we don't enjoy driving quickly. As for street racing, in my humble opinion, is just dumb. Too dangerous in most cases and illegal in all situations. If you enjoy driving quickly, why not join BMW Club of America where you can compete in a safe environment against cars that are set up just like the one you drive. Driver against driver, in similarly setup cars and in similar driving environments. Best of all, its safe and legal.
> 
> The other thing about performance upgrades in the US vs. the RoW (Rest of the World), we have speed limits here. Upgrading cars when your daily drives prevents you from using the upgrades is a bit wasteful. Of course if you take yours to the track, its a different story.


so the rest of the world has no speed limits ? I think they do. Only certain places in Germany are not limited by limits but they are getting less and less , and a lot of the time it's too busy to go fast anyways. This hardly counts for the 'rest of the the world'
As far as I know every other European country HAS speed limits, usually around 75 mph.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

rruiter said:


> so the rest of the world has no speed limits ? I think they do. Only certain places in Germany are not limited by limits but they are getting less and less , and a lot of the time it's too busy to go fast anyways. This hardly counts for the 'rest of the the world'
> As far as I know every other European country HAS speed limits, usually around 75 mph.


That is true... only on the Autobahn in Germany there is no "default" speed limit. However, there are speed-limit-zones due to dangerous curves or tunnels or their like. The official speed limit on regular roads (1 lane for each direction) is 100kmh which is 60mph.
This applies to most other European countries, except they don't have the Autobahn.


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## bavarian19 (May 11, 2003)

With the articles that Alex posted, there is a distinct difference to reading them and having little to no effect, or actually understanding that innocent people do die due to this reckless behavior. 


Understand that this board is generally opposed to street racing for varying reasons. For the most part, we will not accept it as an acceptable activity. This is exactly what the other thread came to, and Im not going to waste any more time here.


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

ajt819 said:


> With the articles that Alex posted, there is a distinct difference to reading them and having little to no effect, or actually understanding that innocent people do die due to this reckless behavior.
> 
> Understand that this board is generally opposed to street racing for varying reasons. For the most part, we will not accept it as an acceptable activity. This is exactly what the other thread came to, and Im not going to waste any more time here.


Agree :thumbup:


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

pintnight said:


> Yes, take it to the track. Not on public roads.


Man you think we have a track in every city? And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.

1) You don't take luxury vehicles on the track to begin with.
2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.
3) You think we all have motorcycle helmets and friggin race suits for your "track events"?
4) You think we all have dedicated wheels and tires for tracks?
5) You think it's that fun going around in a circle on this "great track" you speak of?
6) You think we can all pay for track costs? If I really had that kind of extra money lying around, then I would have gone to install upgrades on the car.

I wouldn't be caught dead in my 330i on the track...it would blow up!


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bavarian said:


> Man you think we have a track in every city? And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.
> 
> 1) You don't take luxury vehicles on the track to begin with.
> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.
> ...


 Were you aware that non-M Bimmers are just as successful race cars as the M Bimmers? In fact, the 330i is far more competitive than the M3 at autocross.

But then, I guess you wouldn't know that. Your ignorance, as always, is readily apparent.


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## rruiter (Feb 10, 2004)

Bavarian said:


> Man you think we have a track in every city? And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.
> 
> 1) You don't take luxury vehicles on the track to begin with.
> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.
> ...


blow up, flip crash and burn.. you don't have a lot of confidence in your car AND yourself. 
You're able to buy a 330i yet you can not afford a track day ? come ooooonnnnnnnn...!


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

rruiter said:


> blow up, flip crash and burn.. you don't have a lot of confidence in your car AND yourself.
> You're able to buy a 330i yet you can not afford a track day ? come ooooonnnnnnnn...!


 No, I suspect he can't. More to the point, even if he could, I doubt his Mom would let him take her 330i to a track event.


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## Nick325xiT 5spd (Dec 24, 2001)

Bart325i said:


> The law used in CA seems like a good idea, even though like you said it WOULD be subject to abuse... do you know when this law was passed and do you have any statistics about whether street racing decreased afterwards?


 http://www.lacp.org/AskBill/AskBill-2.html


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## BahnBaum (Feb 25, 2004)

Bavarian said:


> Man you think we have a track in every city? And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.
> 
> 1) You don't take luxury vehicles on the track to begin with.
> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.
> ...


I'm lost here. So since you don't want to push a car hard on the track cuz it might flip, crash, or burn, and you don't have proper racing equipment like a helmet, and cuz you can't afford track costs, this all justifies street racing? :dunno:

Alex


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Bavarian said:


> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.


:bustingup :bustingup :bustingup :bustingup :bustingup


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

BahnBaum said:


> I'm lost here. So since you don't want to push a car hard on the track cuz it might flip, crash, or burn, and you don't have proper racing equipment like a helmet, and cuz you can't afford track costs, this all justifies street racing? :dunno:
> 
> Alex


It does not JUSTIFY street racing...it's still wrong to do it. However, that is the reason why if it happens, I do it on the road and not on a track. When you launch from the light, it's not that much strain on the car as in doing the same thing on the track...but also taking turns at high speeds and spending a lot of time in high RPMs.

See, I trust this thing to go in a straight line...but if I had to get it to corner and stay on the same gear at 5000RPM, too, it would most certainly blow up. Then you'd see barbequed chicken driving it...maybe some fried eggs too!

Rooster


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

Bavarian said:


> Man you think we have a track in every city?


You're from Toronto area, right? Well here, second link Google turned up for "Canada tracks": http://chasinracin.com/track-locator/states/canadadet.shtml



> And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.


I've never tracked a car before, but take a look around and you'll find lots of Bimmerfest members that track their 330i and other non-M BMWs.



> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.


Okay... it would not unless you messed up. You could easily do this street racing though, given all the random hazards, oil slicks, and moving obstacles that could cross your path at any time, as opposed to a track which is a very controlled situation.



> 3) You think we all have motorcycle helmets and friggin race suits for your "track events"?


A valid question, but you should realize you need this much more if you street race than if you track, simply because street racing is full of variables you cannot control.



> 5) You think it's that fun going around in a circle on this "great track" you speak of?


I've never tracked, but seriously, if you actually like driving, you wouldn't pose such a question. First of all, people do not track their BMWs on an oval, nor do you really take a BMW to a drag event. A BMW is about handling, which is why people that track BMWs go to road courses (NOT a circle). If you find it enjoyable throwing your car through twisty backroads, well, a track is the same thing but faster and safer.



> 6) You think we can all pay for track costs? If I really had that kind of extra money lying around, then I would have gone to install upgrades on the car.


They have such things as open track events where you drive around for the personal excitement of learning and pushing your own limits without competition. You don't need to modify your car at all.


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## pintnight (Mar 19, 2002)

Bavarian said:


> Man you think we have a track in every city? And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.
> 
> 1) You don't take luxury vehicles on the track to begin with.
> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.
> ...


What?! I auto-x my 328i once. Handled GREAT!! Before that, I was auto-x'ing 325i during the BMW Ultimate Driving Machine. You sure don't know what you are talking about.

Go to a BMW auto-x'ing event. You will be suprised to see what people drive there. Educate yourself.


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

pintnight said:


> What?! I auto-x my 328i once. Handled GREAT!! Before that, I was auto-x'ing 325i during the BMW Ultimate Driving Machine. You sure don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> Go to a BMW auto-x'ing event. You will be suprised to see what people drive there. Educate yourself.


You mean I'd be surprised what SKILLFUL people drive there. Firstly, I am not a skillful driver...and therefore, I am not able to use this 330i in the correct manner probably. Therefore, not only do I not trust the car itself, but I don't trust myself. And if I don't trust myself nor the car on normal twisty backroads...what good is the same situation gonna do at an even higher speed (track)? The result would be very similar to this:


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## anon (Jul 8, 2003)

Bavarian said:


> Man you think we have a track in every city? And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.
> 
> 1) You don't take luxury vehicles on the track to begin with.
> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.
> ...


 1. you're not old enough to drive, much less race.
2. you're not old enough to drive, much less race.
3. you're not old enough to drive, much less race.
4. you're not old enough to drive, much less race.
5. you're not old enough to drive, much less race.
6. you're not old enough to drive, much less race.

why do you even continue on like you're anything other than a passenger in your mother's luxury sedan? i wouldn't be surprised if you weren't allowed to even sit in the front due to the threat of airbag deployment...


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## Orient330iNYC (Jul 30, 2002)

Hate to break it to you, but what makes you think that street racing is any safer?
From what i heard, that pic was taken of an Audi A3 that lost control on a PUBLIC road.

Despite your idiotic theory that its all ok as long as you have a two lane road and you take the left lane, your own confession that your car handling skills are not up to par begs me to ask you what do you think will happen if you lose control? I really dont mind you or the import tuner you decided to show whats what to being removed from the gene pool, but what about the family in the minivan in the oncoming lanes you take with you because you need to pump up your self esteem while racing your mommy's car? grow up before you kill someone aside from yourself.


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

Orient330iNYC said:


> Hate to break it to you, but what makes you think that street racing is any safer?
> From what i heard, that pic was taken of an Audi A3 that lost control on a PUBLIC road.
> 
> Despite your idiotic theory that its all ok as long as you have a two lane road and you take the left lane, your own confession that your car handling skills are not up to par begs me to ask you what do you think will happen if you lose control? I really dont mind you or the import tuner you decided to show whats what to being removed from the gene pool, but what about the family in the minivan in the oncoming lanes you take with you because you need to pump up your self esteem while racing your mommy's car? grow up before you kill someone aside from yourself.


First of all, for your information I did NOT vote for the 1st option in the poll. Secondly, not only do I not possess handling skills, but neither does this car. I do not trust it. After all, I've had to have the dealer fix the front suspension - god knows when the wheels will simply come off one day!

It seems you are correct about the probability of death in a public road or track. For me, these are equal actually. I am perfectly able to make my 330i look like that A3 while navigating a public road or track.

Simply the combination of lack of skill, and lack of ability on the car's side will undoubtably increase the chances of accidents and/or death.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Rooster, have you ever even seen the track? The whole idea of driving on the track, be it just a driving school, lapping session or race is that it is a controlled environment. There are no trees or buildings to hit and no pedestrians are crossing your path. All the participants have knowledge of the rules, track layout and they all travel in one direction in cars that passed technical inspection. The road surface is usually better quality than you'd find on any public road and there are clearly marked corners and brake markers. Finally there are big run-off areas, tire barriers and catch fences to help to save your ass in case you lose control. All these things create much safer environment than any public street. 

I think that people like you would benefit the most from a driving school as clearly you have no idea what your skills are and what a 3 series BMW is capable of. I suggest that as soon as you get your driving license you sign up for one.


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> Rooster, have you ever even seen the track? The whole idea of driving on the track, be it just a driving school, lapping session or race is that it is a controlled environment. There are no trees or buildings to hit and no pedestrians are crossing your path. All the participants have knowledge of the rules, track layout and they all travel in one direction in cars that passed technical inspection. The road surface is usually better quality than you'd find on any public road and there are clearly marked corners and brake markers. Finally there are big run-off areas, tire barriers and catch fences to help to save your ass in case you lose control. All these things create much safer environment than any public street.
> 
> I think that people like you would benefit the most from a driving school as clearly you have no idea what your skills are and what a 3 series BMW is capable of. I suggest that as soon as you get your driving license you sign up for one.


You know - after all these posts about racing I am going to go to the track and check it out. I consider myself a fair driver - it would be an interesting challenge.
Anyone know where people can go to race their street cars in the SF bay area? I know of 2 tracks in the area - Altamont near Tracy I think and Laguna Seca near - don't know if these places are available to the public for racing though.
Anyone?


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## sshuit (Apr 15, 2002)

I think people who talk on cell phones and generally don't pay attention are a lot more dangerous than the 3AM street light drag racers.

I'd like to see a lot more enforcement of the former. (Although we shouldn't ignore the latter totally either)


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

paulg said:


> Anyone know where people can go to race their street cars in the SF bay area? I know of 2 tracks in the area - Altamont near Tracy I think and Laguna Seca near - don't know if these places are available to the public for racing though.
> Anyone?


I've never been, but I hear a lot about car clubs using Infineon Raceway (Sears Point). Check out the Golden Gate BMWCCA Chapter and their calendar.


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

Bavarian said:


> Secondly, not only do I not possess handling skills, but neither does this car. I do not trust it. After all, I've had to have the dealer fix the front suspension - god knows when the wheels will simply come off one day!


Must... resist... jokes about Chicken Little... or a chicken with its head cut off... :rofl:

Seriously though... I'm not sure how you could possibly have so little faith in a 330i. :tsk: Are you so enamored with "luxury cars" that that's all you're accustomed to? Try commuting in a more pedestrian vehicle some time.

BMWs, new ones anyway, are built very well and are capable of much more than the average driver. They are designed for performance driving, but wear luxury clothes. Judging by how unconfident you are in your own abilities, I'm almost positive the car can handle any situation you would get it into.


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

FenPhen said:


> Must... resist... jokes about Chicken Little... or a chicken with its head cut off... :rofl:
> 
> Seriously though... I'm not sure how you could possibly have so little faith in a 330i. :tsk: Are you so enamored with "luxury cars" that that's all you're accustomed to? Try commuting in a more pedestrian vehicle some time.
> 
> BMWs, new ones anyway, are built very well and are capable of much more than the average driver. They are designed for performance driving, but wear luxury clothes. Judging by how unconfident you are in your own abilities, I'm almost positive the car can handle any situation you would get it into.


The car isn't the problem - it's the roads. American roads are not made to take high speeds. A BMW and others, on the other hand, are. 
Drive the car on a road that can handle it ...and it's another world. I drove consistently over 100mph on the autobahn - it was no big deal. Wouldn't dream of it here.
A track is also made for high speeds. Must be a blast.
Driving around here in a 330 - I always feel I am "running out of road."


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

paulg said:


> The car isn't the problem - it's the roads. American roads are not made to take high speeds. A BMW and others, on the other hand, are.


I wouldn't personally take it up to 100, but try Bear Creek Road in Orinda. You'll probably eat it up pretty quickly, but it's nice while it lasts.


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## The Roadstergal (Sep 7, 2002)

Check out Thunderhill, as well - it's a bit of a drive, but the people up here make a pilgrimage down twice a year, and say it's worth the drive.

Now that I've been on a track - public roads are dull.


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## paulg (Oct 5, 2003)

FenPhen said:


> I wouldn't personally take it up to 100, but try Bear Creek Road in Orinda. You'll probably eat it up pretty quickly, but it's nice while it lasts.


Thanks - there are so many cool roads once you leave the urban hot spots. I think I know it - doesn't that road wind up to the berkeley hills? Orinda is gorgeous - a friend lives in a villa overlooking a golf course there - looks like the setting for the Eagle's Hotel California album.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

Street racing is for losers.


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## OBS3SSION (Oct 1, 2002)

My dear young Bavarian, you're ignorance is so astounding, it's beginning to make me stoopid. Obviously, that sounds like a flame attack, but let me try to provide some constructive criticism and advice for you.



Bavarian said:


> Man you think we have a track in every city? And I would have to be absolutely crazy to take a non-M BMW on the track.


No, of course not. Does every city have a baseball stadium, or a bowling alley? No. But unless you are in some remote area far from everything, a track can not be too far from you. Probably even a choice of several tracks.



> 1) You don't take luxury vehicles on the track to begin with.


Why don't you turn on the SPEED channel and check out Speed World Challenge, Grand Am cup or other road racing series. You'll see Lexus, Audi's, Cadillac's, Mercedes, and yes... BMWs. And you know what, they do very well. And you know what else... they are usually factory backed teams. Which means that even the factories think it's perfectly fine to race "luxury vehicles".



> 2) The 330i would blow up if I pushed it hard on a track; not to mention flip, crash and burn up into fireworks.


You watch too much TV. "Hurry, it's gunna blow!!!" That doesn't happen in real life. Trust me. Besides, your chances of crashing and burning are about 100x greater on a public road when racing.



> 3) You think we all have motorcycle helmets and friggin race suits for your "track events"?


Racing suits are not required for autocrosses or driver's ed and non-competitive track events. Helmets can be rented or bought used for not a lot of money.



> 4) You think we all have dedicated wheels and tires for tracks?


You don't need dedicated wheels and tires for the occasional auto-x or DE. If you make a hobby out of them, and go many times a year, then sure... go buy a set.



> 5) You think it's that fun going around in a circle on this "great track" you speak of?


You think it's that fun going from one stoplight to another in a straight line on this "great street race" you speak of?



> 6) You think we can all pay for track costs? If I really had that kind of extra money lying around, then I would have gone to install upgrades on the car.


I think it would be much more fun and rewarding, and a great learning experience to bring a bone-stock car to a auto-x or track event that I have to pay for, than to dump money into mods and race on the street. Besides, auto crosses are not expensive at all.



> I wouldn't be caught dead in my 330i on the track...it would blow up!


Based on this and your other comments, I doubt you know anything about cars and racing at all. Besides, if "your" 330i was really the ticking time bomb that you say it is, you'd be better off at the track where the environment is controlled, and safety crews are seconds away. On the street for every day driving, you're much more likely to suffer serious injury. And you multiply that chance greatly by street racing. Oh, and did anyone tell you yet that Bill Auberlen won the Speed World Challenge title last season using a 3-freaking-25i? Yeah, a 325... and this past weekend, he won the season opener in the same car!

Your other comments about not being able to handle the car that well, just makes me even more adamant that a proper autocross or track based drivers ed will do you worlds of good. You tell us that you don't trust your driving, yet you defend street racing and claim that "inferior" cars must be "put in their place". You and 99% of the other street racers all think the same, and we wonder why there are so many deaths caused by street racing.

I'm guilty of a couple street races. I was 19 and stupid at the time. I've also had some "spirited" runs with other cars, but "wining" was not a goal. Looking back, those were irresponsible moves, and today I would much rather be on a closed road (which don't happen in real life, only car commercials) or a track.


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## gojira-san (Mar 1, 2004)

No street racing for me. Had a guy in a Porsche 911 (of all things) pull up to me the other day and try that. Sorry no interest - I let him go screaming off when the light changed. I raced open-wheel cars a long time ago so if I need the racing rush, I go to the track.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Bavarian said:


> It does not JUSTIFY street racing...it's still wrong to do it. However, that is the reason why if it happens, I do it on the road and not on a track. When you launch from the light, it's not that much strain on the car as in doing the same thing on the track...but also taking turns at high speeds and spending a lot of time in high RPMs.
> 
> See, I trust this thing to go in a straight line...but if I had to get it to corner and stay on the same gear at 5000RPM, too, it would most certainly blow up. Then you'd see barbequed chicken driving it...maybe some fried eggs too!
> 
> Rooster


Is this rooster guy for real or is he just pulling our puds? I think the latter - funny stuff though!


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

The Roadstergal said:


> We're trying to show the invalidity of Option #2. Racing is never safe. The only responsible way to do it is on the track, where you only endanger yourself and other people who have chosen to be there.


I agree! In fact, once you've gone around a track, the street is just less fun than it was before. For the observant. it's pretty tough to continue to ignore all of the factors that make driving/riding fast vehicles above 7/10ths on public roads dumb.


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## jk330i (Aug 13, 2002)

street racing bad? 













:angel:


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## SLO Town (Oct 18, 2003)

swchang said:


> To be fair to Bart, people on this board did applaud SLO_Town (or whatever his username is) for what he did for his blind son. And if he was applauded for driving fast on an empty, deserted stretch of road, I don't really see why racing on the same empty, deserted stretch of road is any worse.


Hello:

SLO Town here and for the record I want to say that I strongly disagree with any form of "street racing". I get pissed off when someone drives down our neighborhood street at 30mph (the limit is 25). I have the same feeling anywhere there are lots of people, etc. In any urban area, going anything more than 5mph over the limit is iffy in my mind.

Though still just as illegal, my desert run posed no risk to anyone but the two of us in the car. I had 5 mile visibility (at least) and was familiar with the road to boot (no homes, dirt road entrances to the highway etc.). Will I make another desert run anything soon? I highly doubt it. I may never do it again. And this, BTW, was not something I would call "street racing".

SLO Town


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## Galun (Aug 14, 2002)

paulg said:


> You know - after all these posts about racing I am going to go to the track and check it out. I consider myself a fair driver - it would be an interesting challenge.
> Anyone know where people can go to race their street cars in the SF bay area? I know of 2 tracks in the area - Altamont near Tracy I think and Laguna Seca near - don't know if these places are available to the public for racing though.
> Anyone?


There are three major tracks in northern california - Sears Point, Laguna Seca, and Thunderhill. Check out the Golden Gate Chapter website for school schedule.

Please make the distinction between racing and driving schools. Just because you drive at a race track doesn't mean you race. If you join a BMW school, you won't even get timed. It's all about developing driving skills. Nobody comes in first or last. It's not competitive at all.


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## Fzara2000 (Jan 22, 2004)

This thread is really interesting me.

Anyone know of any good tracks, auto-x, or BMW driving schools/tracks where I could try in New Jersey?

After hearing about the track and the different types of them, I think I might try one in the near future.

Close to a year ago, I used to push my 94' E36 to the limit on a 4 lane highway. However, after hearing about a friend with his 02' Benz C-32 AMG going 125 in a 50 and getting his license taken away, I've decided that driving like that really shows you need attention. 

I've learnt now that driving fast on public roads isn't right-especially what I did a year ago. Any sudden SUV lane change into the left lane could have made me in critical condition today. 

I feel we shouldn't flame Bavarian for what he thinks, but try to help him understand why street racing is not right. 

My 0.02.


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## Bavarian (Jun 15, 2002)

Ha you think the American roads aren't that good for driving a 330i on them? The roads in Toronto have become a REAL nightmare. I used to benchmark everything against the roads in my homeland of Bulgaria...those were some of the WORST roads I've driven on ever. But Toronto now tops the list visibly...not only do I not trust the 330i, but it's stiff suspension makes you bite your tongue when driving on Toronto roads these days. Where is the 8% PST going anyway?


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

Fzara2000 said:


> This thread is really interesting me.
> 
> Anyone know of any good tracks, auto-x, or BMW driving schools/tracks where I could try in New Jersey?


From New Jersey you have:
Lime Rock (NW Connecticut) - classic but dangerous track - I think it's cursed
Watkins Glen (NW New York) - haven't driven it
Pocono (central PA) - 3 courses in the infield, it's ok for beginners
Beaver Run (PA) - never been
some other track in PA, I forget? 
VIR (Virginia) - amazing track, wish I was closer to it


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

safetywork said:


> As for street racing, in my humble opinion, is just dumb. Too dangerous in most cases and illegal in all situations. If you enjoy driving quickly, why not join BMW Club of America where you can compete in a safe environment against cars that are set up just like the one you drive.


Because then we'd have to be part of a club. No thanks. I don't even like that I have to carry a costco card.



> Driver against driver, in similarly setup cars and in similar driving environments. Best of all, its safe and legal.





> The other thing about performance upgrades in the US vs. the RoW (Rest of the World), we have speed limits here. Upgrading cars when your daily drives prevents you from using the upgrades is a bit wasteful. Of course if you take yours to the track, its a different story.


While I haven't modded my ZHP, I'm seriously looking into modding my daily commuter 03 Protege. The 2.0 is too gutless for my 90 miles roundtrip. 4 months and I'm already cursing it daily. Another 50-100 HP would make the drive in to work tolerable.

And yes, there is a difference in how long my commute takes in either car. The ZHP shaves about 7-10 minutes off my morning drive as I can cruise easily at 85 while the Mazda seems to gasp above 75.


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## The HACK (Dec 19, 2001)

blueguydotcom said:


> Because then we'd have to be part of a club. No thanks. I don't even like that I have to carry a costco card.


BMWCCA is only one of the few organizations that has track events.

There are numerous organizations around the country that has high performance driving schools, Driving Concepts, Derek Daly, Skip Barber...etc. None of them require a membership.

For all the $$$ "street racers" put into modifying their car, I'll bet 90% of them can't even really take advantage of 1/3rd the car's capability. They're much better served using that $$$ to go to a well organized high performance driving school.


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## pintnight (Mar 19, 2002)

Bavarian said:


> Ha you think the American roads aren't that good for driving a 330i on them? The roads in Toronto have become a REAL nightmare. I used to benchmark everything against the roads in my homeland of Bulgaria...those were some of the WORST roads I've driven on ever. But Toronto now tops the list visibly...not only do I not trust the 330i, but it's stiff suspension makes you bite your tongue when driving on Toronto roads these days. Where is the 8% PST going anyway?


Why are you still driving the 330i if you don't trust it?  :loco:

Go buy a car that you trust.

EDIT: If you don't trust any cars, go take a bus, subway, taxi.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> for the final time --- where is the danger? If I don't run a serious risk of hurting myself or ruining one of my cars, what's the point?


It doesn't have to be dangerous to be enjoyable! Do you always have unprotected sex with a 5 dollar *****?


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

So driving at the limit at Watkins Glen is not dangerous? Tell that to all the racers who died there. 
I don't know about you guys, but I don't particularly want bluedotcom guy at my track events, so just let him be.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

F1Crazy said:


> It doesn't have to be dangerous to be enjoyable! Do you always have unprotected sex with a 5 dollar *****?


Dying of AIDS takes too long and is miserable. Dying at 100 mph is pretty quick.  You get that moment of oh damn right before impact and then...


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## Bart325i (Mar 20, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> Dying of AIDS takes too long and is miserable. Dying at 100 mph is pretty quick.  You get that moment of oh damn right before impact and then...


I agree with Galun, get a 1L Super-Sport bike. This way you'll be less danger to others and (apparently that's what you want) more danger to yourself. :thumbup: :rofl:


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

blueguydotcom said:


> for the final time --- where is the danger? If I don't run a serious risk of hurting myself or ruining one of my cars, what's the point?


That's an f'ed up way of life. In any case, the point others are making is you risking your own life almost always means you're risking others' lives if you do it on a public road. You think you're getting a rush out of making a fast run on a twisty road with blind corners, but one of these days, you'll take out a bicyclist or lose it in a turn and have an offset-frontal with some unlucky family. :tsk:

In any case, you run a big risk of ruining your car or yourself at a track. Have you not seen car crashes on a track? It's not like plowing into garbage bags full of feathers. Someone link that video of the guy losing it at Lime Rock and rolling his WRX.

Or here, check out the *Learning from others mistakes* thread from the Motorsports forum here at Bimmerfest.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

paulg said:


> I think that what motivates a lot of us here is that there is a standard at bimmerfest - and street racing, road rage, eyeballing/challenging other drivers, etc falls below that standard.


Whoa, I'm getting a bum rap for nothing as I don't do any of those things. I never said I do. I mentioned a favorite road (that's now sadly closed) which was perfect for night fun.

As for this bimmerfest standard, oh brother. That's a perfect example of why I can't join BMWCCA. Rules, bylaws, standards, cliques, etc...good grief.

I did see after doing a check online that there's a BMW autocross event at Crumblecom Stadium in Mission Valley this weekend. Maybe I'll drop in to watch it. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind...


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## anon (Jul 8, 2003)

i think you're a bit ridiculous, you live in SAN DIEGO CALIFORNIA, you probably work in an OFFICE BUILDING and you drive a LUXURY VEHICLE to your building of employment. you are a normal everyday joe.

you ARE NOT this live on the edge adventurer being chased by nazi's and hooligans all across the world.

you live in a nice safe environment, whether you realize it or not "rules, standards, clieques" they all apply to you right now. like you said, you zip from light to light, why do you bother listening to a machine changing color? if rules don't apply to you why not ignore them completely? why drive on the right side of the road, why bother with roads? go through the building you reckless dangerous individual!

you've been watching too many "loose cannon" mel gibson flicks...


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

anon said:


> i think you're a bit ridiculous, you live in SAN DIEGO CALIFORNIA, you probably work in an OFFICE BUILDING and you drive a LUXURY VEHICLE to your building of employment. you are a normal everyday joe.
> 
> you ARE NOT this live on the edge adventurer being chased by nazi's and hooligans all across the world.
> 
> ...


I drive 90 miles a day to and from work. I wish I lived a few stop lights from my home. Additionally, I only drive my ZHP on weekends - when I can take it out and play all day with it.

If I thought I could get away with running lights...I would. Same with driving on the other side of the road. We all break the law to varying degrees. Some laws we feel are worthwhile, others, as indivuals, we find reprehensible. there's a distinct difference between following laws that keep me out of prison and following laws/rules of some crackpot organization. One is something I must endure while living here, the other would be something I'd choose.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

blueguydotcom said:


> ...That's a perfect example of why I can't join BMWCCA. Rules, bylaws, standards, cliques, etc...good grief. ...


Sure you can join the BMW CCA. You can also become a Licensed BMW CCA Club racer but BMW CCR operates under the "13/13 rule" of vintage racing. Maybe you don't like taking responsibility for your own actions and wouldn't want to operate under these rules. If so, then SCCA is where you want to be. Feel free to punt, slam or shove your way to the podium. I'm sure that's how all the great 'racers' got there!


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

blueguydotcom said:


> I drive 90 miles a day to and from work. I wish I lived a few stop lights from my home. Additionally, I only drive my ZHP on weekends - when I can take it out and play all day with it.
> 
> If I thought I could get away with running lights...I would. Same with driving on the other side of the road. We all break the law to varying degrees. Some laws we feel are worthwhile, others, as indivuals, we find reprehensible. there's a distinct difference between following laws that keep me out of prison and following laws/rules of some crackpot organization. One is something I must endure while living here, the other would be something I'd choose.


If you really like exhilaration that much, have you thought about bungee jumping, skydiving, mountain climbing, etc.? I'd be all about that stuff if I had the money and time. :thumbup:


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## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

anon said:


> you ARE NOT this live on the edge adventurer being chased by nazi's and hooligans all across the world.
> 
> .


Speak for yourself!

: popcorn:


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

sergiok said:


> Maybe you don't like taking responsibility for your own actions and wouldn't want to operate under these rules. If so, then SCCA is where you want to be. Feel free to punt, slam or shove your way to the podium. I'm sure that's how all the great 'racers' got there!


I love these digs you guys toss out as little character jabs. Taking responsibility and living by rules have nothing in common. One is a character thing, the other rests on what's enforceable outside of the individual. You can be a responsible person and not obey laws you feel are ridiculous.


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## jetstream23 (Mar 9, 2004)

Drive on the street, race on the track


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