# will new design prevent anyone from purchasing new 5?



## first5ny (Apr 18, 2004)

If so, what will you get instead. 

Personally, I don't think the new design is that bad. I think it is a step in the wrong direction, too angular, but it could be worse. I think the prior generation is possibly the best looking sedan ever made.


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## KevinM (May 2, 2003)

This has been thrashed about quite a bit on forum, so most have already expressed their opinions...we definately have a devided and equally passionate group!

As for me, the E60 is growing on me, but so far I'm planning on keeping my E39 for some time.

Kevin

P.S. I definatey agree with you on the E39s styling...for me it was love at first sight!


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2004)

KevinM said:


> This has been thrashed about quite a bit on forum, so most have already expressed their opinions...we definately have a devided and equally passionate group!
> 
> As for me, the E60 is growing on me, but so far I'm planning on keeping my E39 for some time.
> 
> ...


 I cannot see ever getting an E60. I would get a used E39 or E34 first. Hell, I'd probably get an E-class Benz before an E60.


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## TXE39 (Oct 2, 2003)

I drove a 6spd 545 during the Koman deal and I really liked how it drove. I really don't mind the looks but the interior kills me. My biggest complaint about my E39 is it's size. Most of the time I have adults in the car so when I first started looking I was looking at E38s but decided I liked driving the 5 better. My next car will most likely be either a 745Li or an S500. If I can afford to have two cars I might do a LS430 and an M3. Most likely no E60 though.


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## O.S. (Jun 22, 2004)

I might go for a M5 e60 only ... till then I'll drive my e39 540 ... there are still plenty of mods left for me to do. 
I might also drive a 545 e60 if it is a company car.


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## markseven (Apr 30, 2004)

Do you guys think the price of pre-owned M5's will come down significantly once the E60 M5 becomes available?


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## e39540i6 (Oct 9, 2003)

No not really. It's growing on me.


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## heezyo2o (Mar 23, 2004)

The design hasn't stopped me. I chose between an e500, a M3, a used M5 and can tell you I definately made the right choice. For looks wise, the car went from growing on me, to me simply loving it. 

If you don't like the looks though, then don't buy it. I wouldn't buy something I didn't like.


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## richr8 (Jun 23, 2004)

*The only thing stopping me is cash.*


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

I like the E60 better then the E39. I take mine 545i / 6MT Thank-you.


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## sj3 (Feb 25, 2004)

What I've noticed on most of the forums is that almost everyone saying they don't like the E60's looks are E39 owners. They (actually 'we', because I also owned one) feel abaondoned by BMW. Their design is now history and they don't like it so they pan the new design. This is fear of change, at its most basic. For me, the looks didn't wow me or instantly affect me one way or the other. It was simple: my ex best friend trashed my E39, past the point of reasonable recovery, I needed a new car, I feel BMW builds the best cars on the planet as measured by a perfect design balance between performance, luxury, safety, and fun. No one does that better. I wanted features (e.g. comfort seats) only available in the 5 and 7, couldn't afford the 7 and it was bigger than I wanted or needed, so the 5 was it. I'm glad I didn't think it was really ugly! That would have made things difficult.

Sam


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

No, I don't think I'll ever get past the bad design. There aren't really any alternatives other than used e39s (or e34s). I might be able to deal with it if the front-end is re-designed and the interior gets a major overhaul.


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## humanoid (Mar 31, 2002)

first5ny said:


> If so, what will you get instead.
> 
> Personally, I don't think the new design is that bad. I think it is a step in the wrong direction, too angular, but it could be worse. I think the prior generation is possibly the best looking sedan ever made.


Where have you been for the past several months. This has been posted in numerous threads all over the INET message boards.

I like the power, hate the style. I would get an e55 AMG over the new e60 M5. I would get a used e39 540 or e39 M5 over any of the other e60's.


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## jw (Dec 21, 2001)

The design was definitely a factor that weighed in my decision. Not a big one though. In the end, it came down to a number of factors, but I'd have to say I chose the option that provided the biggest and best bang for the bucks - '04 CTS 3.6L. The 2 year lease works out to be ~100/month less than my 3 year lease on the 330i I just ditched. I was looking at the usual suspects in the R&T article a while back. Coincidentally, I was test driving all those models when the magazine hit the streets.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

My dad had a 1993 525i and now has a 2000 540iA. He was excited about the new 5-series before it was released, but is now having second thoughts after seeing the car and reading the reviews. The styling, i-drive and active steering are what's making him consider other alternatives.

Currently he's thinking about the new A6 and the soon to be released 300 hp AWD Acura RL. I think he should also consider the E500, XJ8 and the next generation Infinti M45, but he seems reluctant about those.

In the end, he might wind up with an E60, but because of BMW's current direction, it's not a lock.


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## kazman (Mar 29, 2004)

Moderato said:


> I like the E60 better then the E39. I take mine 545i / 6MT Thank-you.


I have conducted some market analysis of my own...every woman I have shown pictures to have fallen in love with the new 5...they absolutely adore the styling. Now that response from the ladies should be enough for you E39ers to stop whining and start saving for a new E60. Now all I need is my new E60 to be delivered for me to go from marketing the car to the ladies to giving the ladies test drives


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## O.S. (Jun 22, 2004)

my wife says e39 is the best looking car out there. she does not like e60 at all.


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## jw (Dec 21, 2001)

O.S. said:


> my wife says e39 is the best looking car out there. she does not like e60 at all.


My wife said the same thing about the E60.


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## humanoid (Mar 31, 2002)

O.S. said:


> my wife says e39 is the best looking car out there. she does not like e60 at all.


Same here :thumbup:


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## Moderato (Nov 24, 2003)

My wife likes the E60 better.


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## Love530 (Sep 4, 2003)

Moderato said:


> My wife likes the E60 better.


Tell me about it! Every chance she gets, my wife is trying to "borrow" my e60 to run to the store or go shopping with her friends. I usually get my way when I tell her she can fit so much more in her SUV. That only hurts the plastic in my wallet


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## bmwmch (May 12, 2004)

my comments relate to the 545i only - the bigger engine makes a difference to me - owned previous 540i , great car .... but after driving this car ( 545i ) for 6 months it is clearly a better car - all the debate has to do with styling which is too bad because what is clearly missed is what a truly great car this is to drive - also the " like " factor has alot to do with getting the car built exact to your preference , which in my case i was able to do , with some after market changes - this is still confirmed to me six months later !


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## heezyo2o (Mar 23, 2004)

sj3 said:


> What I've noticed on most of the forums is that almost everyone saying they don't like the E60's looks are E39 owners. They (actually 'we', because I also owned one) feel abaondoned by BMW. Their design is now history and they don't like it so they pan the new design. This is fear of change, at its most basic. For me, the looks didn't wow me or instantly affect me one way or the other. It was simple: my ex best friend trashed my E39, past the point of reasonable recovery, I needed a new car, I feel BMW builds the best cars on the planet as measured by a perfect design balance between performance, luxury, safety, and fun. No one does that better. I wanted features (e.g. comfort seats) only available in the 5 and 7, couldn't afford the 7 and it was bigger than I wanted or needed, so the 5 was it. I'm glad I didn't think it was really ugly! That would have made things difficult.
> 
> Sam


When the e39 debuted, many e34 owners did not like the styling of that car either. Well I guess many of them have warmed up to it as they now own or are looking to buy an e39, go figure.


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## kazman (Mar 29, 2004)

O.S. said:


> my wife says e39 is the best looking car out there. she does not like e60 at all.


Try this out....tell her (in a very serious face) "Honey, I have decided to get the new 5". I bet she will miraculously convert to our side and say.."yeah hon, the car does kinda grow on you...I like it now !!!"...trust me it's a true babemobile.


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## jvr826 (Apr 22, 2002)

humanoid said:


> Where have you been for the past several months. This has been posted in numerous threads all over the INET message boards.
> 
> I like the power, hate the style. I would get an e55 AMG over the new e60 M5. I would get a used e39 540 or e39 M5 over any of the other e60's.


I'm thinking the same thing. Keep mine for a looong time, if they can fix the annoying clicks and clunks by the time the lease is up. Otherwise, I may have to shop for something completely different - and it's disturbing. I've been driving BMW's for 8 years and I really want to stick with the brand, but the style (and higher price) and initial bug list of the E60 (and late model year issues with my E39) have me thinking about other brands. IMO, at these prices, we should expect and get perfection in all aspects of the purchase, not just driving experience.

I like the look of late model Audi cars, but haven't driven any yet. I like the new E look also, but no manual tranny means no way for me. I like the idea of a Corvette (approaching another milestone birthday.  but I'm not too keen on it's styling either. I can't afford a 911 or an Aston Martin, otherwise it would be an easy decision. :bigpimp: I feel like a long term relationship is coming to an end and there's nothing I can do to save it, except compromise beyond my comfort zone.

It's also an economics thing - $50k + for a car that still has production problems that cannot (or will not) be fixed by the service network without multiple complaints and visits? I'm starting to think it just isn't worth it anymore. I don't like to spend money on maintenance and repairs, so leasing new every 3 years works well for me. But, time is money and the nearest dealer (notice I didn't say nearest CAPABLE dealer) is an hour away. I have no idea how far away the nearest capable dealer is, I haven't found them within 80 miles of my home - yet.

But the E39 sure is a beatiful car, inside and out. I find myself stuck in a gaze every time I park in the garage.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

jvr530i said:


> I'm thinking the same thing. Keep mine for a looong time, if they can fix the annoying clicks and clunks by the time the lease is up. Otherwise, I may have to shop for something completely different - and it's disturbing. I've been driving BMW's for 8 years and I really want to stick with the brand, but the style (and higher price) and initial bug list of the E60 (and late model year issues with my E39) have me thinking about other brands. IMO, at these prices, we should expect and get perfection in all aspects of the purchase, not just driving experience.
> 
> I like the look of late model Audi cars, but haven't driven any yet. I like the new E look also, but no manual tranny means no way for me. I like the idea of a Corvette (approaching another milestone birthday.  but I'm not too keen on it's styling either. I can't afford a 911 or an Aston Martin, otherwise it would be an easy decision. :bigpimp: I feel like a long term relationship is coming to an end and there's nothing I can do to save it, except compromise beyond my comfort zone.
> 
> ...


True, but Audi and Mercedes will likely be even more troublesome.


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## jvr826 (Apr 22, 2002)

robg said:


> True, but Audi and Mercedes will likely be even more troublesome.


Could very well be and that is most of the reason I don't want to lease something else. But if the replacement costs $10k-20k less than the BMW, well, my expectations are lower and annoying problems will bother me less. I'm also thinking about the new Acura TL 6-speed. It comes with an impressive list of standard features and lots more power than my 530i. I haven't driven this one either, but I like the looks and specs I've seen so far. But, will it have "soul" like the BMW does?


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## E39spd (Mar 4, 2004)

jvr530i said:


> Could very well be and that is most of the reason I don't want to lease something else. But if the replacement costs $10k-20k less than the BMW, well, my expectations are lower and annoying problems will bother me less. I'm also thinking about the new Acura TL 6-speed. It comes with an impressive list of standard features and lots more power than my 530i. I haven't driven this one either, but I like the looks and specs I've seen so far. But, will it have "soul" like the BMW does?


Jeff,

I had the 2004 TL, unfortunately they bought it back from me only after several months of ownership (I did not ask them to do it, I just wanted my car fixed), but unfortunately they could not fix many of the issues the car had and simply offered to buy it back without trying any fixes.

See my original post here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=686874#post686874

I am not trying to dissuade you from getting the TL, but from what I have read at acura-tl.com, many of the issues have not gone away, and more have cropped up (like the falling head liner that is in the shop a few times before they get it right).

Paint and finish is sub-par as is the leather (many defects in the paint, and see my post about the leather), fit is way off and still is from current posts. These are not issues I would expect from an established company and factory, even for a new car.

Sorry, did not mean to go off on a tangent, but the TL is a great car, the features are unbeatable for the price (as long as the torque steer does not get you, the 6spd manual with limited slip exaggerates it, and is the only car I have seen Car and Driver recommend the auto version, due to no limited slip, unfortunately this is not a characteristic of honda/acuras of past).

I will say that the interior looks and feels better than any Audi, or other car (once you get past the leather issue), and I had people drooling over it. The voice commands and navigation were outstanding and easy to use (just say a telephone number of a point of interest and if finds the address, or vice versa, just ask it to find the closest Italian restaurant and it lists them by distance with telephone numbers). Bluetooth worked (well sometimes, the Johnson controls system did have some audio problems once in a while and would lock up on some early cars).

The TL has some growing pains and I would definitely recommend waiting until 2005. Oh, also plain on new shoes if they do not get rid of the blowstones (bridgestones) that are original fitment) as they are the cause of many a frustrated driver with the TL.

OK, back to the new 5, I have neighbors who just bought the E500, they were loyal BMW fans, and still have 2 BMW's, but they could not get past the i-Drive system, when the wife first saw it, she would not even get in it, and even after a few lessons, she flat out refused it. Did they like the styling of the E65, no, but they did like the performance and driving experience of the 545 over the E500, but in the long run, the lack of i-Drive and more traditional styling won them over to their first MB.

As for me, the new E65 is a bit of a stretch with the angry front end and oriental tail, I would take the TL design and aggressive flare over the E65 any day, I would even go for the old (vs the 05) A6 2.7T (definitely the 4.2) over the E65, and I always thought the A6 was a little bland in styling, especially the nose.

I could get over the rest of the E65 design if they fixed the nose and tail. However, for the rest of the experience (driving), I still rate the E65 sport on top of the rest (less the active steering).

As for the M5 version of the E65, the jury is out until I see one in person (not too sure on the photos yet but with today's cars, you can not judge by it's photos).

Good luck to all and lets hope they do not mess with the 3/4 series as much.


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## jvr826 (Apr 22, 2002)

E39spd said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I had the 2004 TL, unfortunately they bought it back from me only after several months of ownership (


After posting my interest, I went out and did some reading at acura-tl.com myself. It's funny, those guys have all of the same dealership problems we do: could not duplicate; you modded your car-not our problem; show up, have the car all day, don't touch it, have to leave it longer. And yes, there are a number of issues for the first year run, which is surprising to me having owned 2 Acuras in the late 80's, early 90's.

And there was alot of comparison between BMW and Acura and most admit that although well equipped and much more power (on paper), the Acura is bland in the driving experience and only slightly quicker. Without driving it, I can pretty much decide it will NOT have the soul that my BMW does. In 1996 I was treated so badly at a BMW center during a 328is sales experience (BMW of SF dishonored our "deal" after 11 days of so-called "searching" for a car I wanted) that I swore I would never step foot in another BMW dealership again. So, I went out and looked over the competition, including an Acura Legend Coupe and a Saab 900 Turbo. I require a manual tranny, not too many options at the time. I didn't drive the Audi. There was no comparison to the soul of those cars and the 328is.

I'm still in love with my 5'er every time I leave the house with it. And I'm hoping that replacing the seat rails, and front struts will correct the two most annoying problems I have and allow me to stay away from a BMW center service department forever. We'll see...


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

PhilH said:


> My dad had a 1993 525i and now has a 2000 540iA. He was excited about the new 5-series before it was released, but is now having second thoughts after seeing the car and reading the reviews. The styling, i-drive and active steering are what's making him consider other alternatives.
> 
> Currently he's thinking about the new A6 and the soon to be released 300 hp AWD Acura RL. I think he should also consider the E500, XJ8 and the next generation Infinti M45, but he seems reluctant about those.
> 
> In the end, he might wind up with an E60, but because of BMW's current direction, it's not a lock.


S-type? XJ8 is one class size up.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

swchang said:


> S-type? XJ8 is one class size up.


I know, but I don't really like the S-Type.


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## E39spd (Mar 4, 2004)

jvr530i said:


> ....................... And yes, there are a number of issues for the first year run, which is surprising to me having owned 2 Acuras in the late 80's, early 90's.
> 
> ...


Yes, the 5 does have a lot more soul, and enjoyment behind the wheel than the new TL, however, the TL does have a lot more gizmos that work and make the experience more enjoyable, but when it comes right down to it, the BMW is more fun to drive.

This is not to say that I do not miss my TL, I do, but the 5 is more satisfying to drive.

I agree, I also owned my last Acura in the very late 80's / early 90's and it was a joy, the new ones are just having too many problems out the door and an exec VP of Acura admitted to USA Today that the Acura line, specifically the intro of the new TL was bringing the whole Honda division quality rating down (I can get the link if needed).

Now we just need BMW to get back on track with their exterior and interior designs to match the suspension/engine/braking performance.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

E39spd said:


> Yes, the 5 does have a lot more soul, and enjoyment behind the wheel than the new TL, however, the TL does have a lot more gizmos that work and make the experience more enjoyable, but when it comes right down to it, the BMW is more fun to drive.
> 
> This is not to say that I do not miss my TL, I do, but the 5 is more satisfying to drive.
> 
> ...


Yes, it would be much easier for BMW to fix their design and electroinics than for Acura to swithc to RWD and fix their driving experience. I don't know why BMW is so stubborn about their bad designs and about buying inferior, outdated German electronics. They could simultaneiously add features, and improve quality by purchasing from a Japanese supplier.


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## bigredexpy (Dec 2, 2003)

I was at BMW dealer and was talking with some guys who both had E39. I could not tell the difference between the two cars. One was a 2003 and the other was 1999.

I quess the guy in the 99 took care of his car.

The E39 is very nice car, but it was time for a change. I love my new E60 and the I-drive
is not that bad. I dont like all the buttons that the E39 had.

And yes my wife love the new E60.


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## E39spd (Mar 4, 2004)

bigredexpy said:


> I was at BMW dealer and was talking with some guys who both had E39. I could not tell the difference between the two cars. One was a 2003 and the other was 1999.
> 
> I quess the guy in the 99 took care of his car.
> 
> ...


Happy to hear that you love it.

It is not as bad as we make it sound.

BTW - In 4 years or so, yours will look like the 2008 E60 too.

Agree that a change is needed, but it would have been nice not to have the angry eyes and frowning tail


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## FreeHomes (Jul 14, 2004)

Greetings,

In my opinion, I hated the new 5 as much as I hated the new 7, and now 6. The E39 5 is the best BMW ever, and I can't imagine that ever changing. I tried to adapt to new Bangle Bust, but just cannot get past its plain ugly looks. Back of 5 looks just like a bulging Subaru Impreza. (g)

Sadly, I gave up on having the new designs grow on me, it just won't happen. I will hang onto my 5 till it dies and use it as second vehicle and will wait on new Benz G-Wagon with diesel. (g) Sadly, I do not like any of the new designs, and to think that they went from best to last in looks with one model change. Sad, very sad.

Regards, Mike
http://Arbitrage-Better.com


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## Hoya Saxa (Feb 6, 2004)

first5ny said:


> If so, what will you get instead.
> 
> Personally, I don't think the new design is that bad. I think it is a step in the wrong direction, too angular, but it could be worse. I think the prior generation is possibly the best looking sedan ever made.


For me, the e60 is a work of art. I think the design is fantastic. The old design, while attractive, was a bit pedestrian for my taste. But that's just my opinion.

Hoya


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## jvr826 (Apr 22, 2002)

I haven't driven an E60 yet, but I will say the looks do deter my interest. And, I've been reading many articles about it and find statements like: "Annoyances, and there are more than we've mentioned here..." and "... more than one staffer commented on how much they miss the natural feel and well-balanced, holistic goodness that defined the previous 5 Series." and "The car does things I don't need it to do and in ways I didn't request... the 545i trains you to drive differenently... this car asks that _you_ adapt to _it_." All from a recent Motor Trend article comparing the Caddy STS and BMW 545i.

I agree with the others, BMW has got the driving experience down to a science. They've made changes over the years (relocation of window controls) to be more like everyone else, yet don't include state of the art creature comforts that are on par with the competition. Styling is subjective, you like it or you don't.

I, like others, have driven many BMW's over the years and I can honestly say I haven't been in one yet that required me to relearn how to drive. Every one from the E30, E36, E34, E39, Z3, E46 felt immediately familiar from the first turn of the key - except the damn window switch location.

For me, if the eyebrows were gone and the tail lights were more German, maybe the exterior styling of the E60 wouldn't bother me so much. It just doesn't do it for me. And I like buttons over menus anyday. I wish my E39 steering wheel had more. i recently rented a Crown Vic on a business trip and I could control the HVAC from the steering wheel in addition to cruise and entertainment. Of course, that's because the stereo and HVAC units are about 10 feet away from the wheel. 

ymmv, happy motoring


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## mrbelk (Dec 5, 2003)

jvr530i said:


> I haven't driven an E60 yet, but I will say the looks do deter my interest. And, I've been reading many articles about it and find statements like: "Annoyances, and there are more than we've mentioned here..." and "... more than one staffer commented on how much they miss the natural feel and well-balanced, holistic goodness that defined the previous 5 Series." and "The car does things I don't need it to do and in ways I didn't request... the 545i trains you to drive differenently... this car asks that _you_ adapt to _it_." All from a recent Motor Trend article comparing the Caddy STS and BMW 545i.
> 
> I agree with the others, BMW has got the driving experience down to a science. They've made changes over the years (relocation of window controls) to be more like everyone else, yet don't include state of the art creature comforts that are on par with the competition. Styling is subjective, you like it or you don't.
> 
> ...


I just got back to work from Barnes and Noble where I read the exact same article. The short version of my opinion is that it has become fashionable to deride BMW lately. I have a 545/6sp, and graduated out of a 330i/5sp. I can't make any comments about the auto tranny, since I have a manual, but I will offer this: that every BMW auto tranny I've ever ridden in or driven has been a little jerky, especially in the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts, as well as the throttle "tip-in" being a little agressive. BMW's are not Caddy's, after all. The AFS system is awesome. There was no "acclimation" period involved; no "relearning." It felt perfectly natural and transparent from the minute I drove it out of the ED center in Munich.

While looking at the pictures in the article, I made an observation about the STS that I thought interesting: there was no bump-strip along the flanks. This is beginning to be fairly common, as several other cars are eschewing the bump strip for a cleaner look (G35 as an example). This one element of the new BMW design language that has taken a bit of a beating. Here in SUV country (North Fulton County, GA) bump strips are useless anyway. I also noticed that there was a HUGE amount of body lean on the STS compared to the E60.

I'm not sure about what the other "annoyances" they mentioned would be; except for maybe iDrive (which, after 2000 miles is not annoying at all, but a pretty good first shot at a unified controller paradigm). When you add in the Voice Recognition features of the Professional NAV system, the "annoyances" of iDrive just melt away.

As to the styling; can you elaborate on what is so egregious about the taillights? From behind, the new 5er looks almost identical to the E39 5er. Merc uses the same pointy wrap-around style on all their models, but their points are just in the other direction. Given how BMW handled the trunk cut-line (in response to E39 owner complaints about the trunk opening not being big enough), the decision on how and where to position the taillights was basically made for them.

I think that the front fascia is the most compelling angle from which to view the new 5er. I think it looks like a raptor, the way the headlights sweep back. Interesting to note is how the new MB CLS, the Maybachs, and the new S-class spyshots, all have similar "Dame Edna" rear-sweeping headlight clusters. Do I spot another trend?

My only complaint about the new 5er styling would have to be the rocker-panel treatment. I would much prefer the rocker panels to "flare out" rather than "tuck in." Check out pics of the E60M5 to see what I mean.

Anyway, the new styling didn't prevent me from getting a new one. By the same token, the old styling wouldn't have prevented me from getting one of those, either, had the style stayed the same. The E39 is a handsome vehicle, but in my eyes, the E60 is just better.

-MrB


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

mrbelk said:


> ...Anyway, the new styling didn't prevent me from getting a new one. By the same token, the old styling wouldn't have prevented me from getting one of those, either, had the style stayed the same. The E39 is a handsome vehicle, but in my eyes, the E60 is just better....


Yeah! :stupid: Amen!! And it will not prevent me from getting one neither!

The E39 is nice but everything on the car from the looks to suspesion and functionality is just Soooo outdated comapre to the E60.

The whole E60 bashing just sounds all too familiar to me, ala E36 to E46 phase-out period. There is really nuthing new there.

The same people arguing the i-drive in E60 being complex are the same people who complaint about theE39 Nav-System being unless. Fact is, the idrive in E60 is much simpler and easier to use than the e39 Nav system set-up.

Just my vote of confidence in the new E60.

cheers,

beewang


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