# Additive observation..



## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

I know many do NOT use additives and some do. This is not to start a additive argument.

I do use certain additives depending on _my_ own research.

That being said when I first bought the 35d, I had heard great things about Opti-lube. Also heard it was a waste of money based on an outdated Spicer report. Snake oil was used as a term as well. I decided to use it since the trucks second fill at every tank and have been doing so since March. All has been well and I was going to use their _Single Clean_ product. A little late but being I bought the truck with 90k, I always use some sort of cleaner (Techron, Lubro) in my gas vehicles so was going to do the same with this truck.

I decided to try instead Lubro Moly's Diesel purge, but in the tank. I called up LM and was told it would work, but much much more effective directly applied. I waited until I got to about a little less than 1/4 tank, ran around until it was at least about to hit the warning light and filled up. Upon fill up i also added Lubro Moly's Diesel Super Additive.

Now, I should have done a more scientific test than just playing by ear. Measuring parameters etc etc. What I did not expect was my truck to sound quieter. When I first started using the Opti-lube XPD, it was noticeable. And now even more so with Lubro in the tank. I drive 90% of the time locally, light to light, stop and go traffic..horrible for any car. So I notice the sounds (Diesely sound?) outside a bit more than I would like too lol. Also car "feels" different, like more peppier maybe?.. im not sure how to rate this, since my butt dyno isn't the best diagnostic tool around and the car already has a Stage 1 tune..

Both Opti-lube and Lubro Moly say that their packages have cetane boost (also read about how too much is bad) and lubrication additives among other "benefits". Again, i dont know what chemicals either use beyond whats available from their own sites. I still have half a gallon left of the XPD stuff and half liter of their Cetane boost. Thinking about trying another tank of LM additive before possibly finishing off the XPD stuff.

So the purpose was just to report a observation on my part as a user of certain additives. I have the _Fuelly _app and i'll update any difference in my MPG. But again, my local 20-30 minute commute doesn't help that area at all :thumbdwn:

** i am NOT affiliated with any company discussed and have heard good things about other additives as well**

..now waiting on _Doug _and _Ard _ to flame me or correct me lol


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Good report. I know many will chime in saying that you don't need additives or that BMW says no, however, the way I see it is that it is your car and your money so it is no business of mine to tell you what to do with them. 

The lower engine noise might be due to higher cetane in the additives. Most states use the federal diesel fuel standards of 40 cetane except for 110 TxLED counties in Texas which have a 48 cetane minimum and California which has a 53 cetane minimum. European standards is 46 for regular diesel and 51-60 for premium diesel. I am not sure what these BMW's are tuned to run on, but if you live in a state that only abides by the 40 cetane minimum, then adding more could help with noise and a few other things.


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## n1das (Jul 22, 2013)

Truck?

My favorite additives are Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat and PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle). I use one or the other with EVERY tankful and year round. I've been leaning toward PowerService Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) exclusively. I do not use PowerService Diesel Kleen (silver bottle) because it is a summer only formula and doesn't do anything for water and doesn't have any anti-gel for winter use. I do not use Opti-Lube because it is supposedly biodiesel based.

My priorities for using an additive are to increase lubricity and take care of any water I can't avoid getting. Boosting Cetane levels and providing anti-gel for winter use are of secondary concern. Avoiding water in diesel from condensation is #1 priority, lubricity is #2. I fuel up ONLY at the highest diesel turnover stations along major routes that get a lot of heavy truck traffic to avoid getting fuel contaminated with water from condensation. A single tank of water contaminated fuel from a station that rarely gets any diesel truck traffic is all it takes to do a lot of damage in a very short time. I go where the big rigs go to fuel up to help avoid low turnover stations. I don't pay attention to the brand of fuel because they all can have problems with water from condensation, especially during winter months in cold areas. I pay more attention to the turnover at the busiest stations along major routes. So buy your fuel only from stations that sell a lot of it.

BMWs no-additives stance is legal CYA for them because they can't be the business of endorsing one additive over another in case one of them causes a problem. It is also to discourage use of old school home made witches brew additives. I am OK with using an EPA approved ULSD compliant additive that's been around for a long time such as Howes or PowerService. I choose to proactively treat my fuel to help guard against factors which are beyond the fuel supplier and BMW's control.

I'm with you on proactive fuel treatment.



Sent from my XP8800 using Tapatalk


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## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

n1das said:


> Truck?


Sorry I have a habit of calling the X5 a truck since this was my first SAV ever. I use the term playfully =)

The reason I started with additives was also for water removal and lubrication. Living in NYC the stations I use have high diesel traffic and I don't worry too much about that part so that's a good thing I guess. BMW also has an additive for Diesel engines and some say they are relabeling Lubro Moly but I can not confirm that anyway.

I've heard good reports on the one's you have mentioned, I might give those a shot later on as well.


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## southcoastguy (Jan 3, 2017)

I wonder why drivers of cars using gasoline engines don't use additives (as much as diesel drivers)? I have been looking for a study of additives to show they make any difference in the life of engines.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

southcoastguy said:


> I wonder why drivers of cars using gasoline engines don't use additives (as much as diesel drivers)? I have been looking for a study of additives to show they make any difference in the life of engines.


Gasoline doesn't gel up so easily in cold weather as diesel. Diesel fuel systems also pump at much higher pressures that gasoline engines do. A modern diesel has fuel rail pressure anywhere from 26k-36k psi while a typical port injected gasoline engine is around 40-60 psi and a direct injected gasoline engine is around 2k-3k psi. You could imagine what kind of damage contaminants such as moisture and air can due to a modern diesel engine at those pressures.

Also, the use of additives is mainly dependent on what kind of environment the vehicles is driven in and the quality of the fuel in the area. Sort of like how conventional oil is fine for people in temperate climates and drive mostly normal highway conditions, but synthetic is recommended for people living at colder climates and/or drive there vehicles in more severe conditions.

Most will probably never need additives while many do it for "cheap insurance". As I said earlier, it is not my money or car so if someone wants to put in additives for "cheap insurance" then more power to them. Lord knows there are probably things I spend my money on that others may think is a waste.


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## ard (Jul 1, 2009)

Dont know enough about specifics to make comments. Been around cummins and ford diesel sites in the past, quite a few run additives.... Id prefer quantitative outcomes- UOA results, etc. Not 'runs quieter' (you can stuff old bananas into the oil filler and engines run quieter).


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

^^^^ +1

I ran PS White in my TDI's and they ran fine. When I got the 35d I saw that additives were not recommended, and it's running fine so far. The TDI's did not have SCR or DPF and one user here associates very subtle chemistries with these systems problems.

As a kid a job for a summer was starting huge very old Caterpillar diesel engines and additives were not used in them, neither was starting fluid.


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## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

ard said:


> Dont know enough about specifics to make comments. Been around cummins and ford diesel sites in the past, quite a few run additives.... Id prefer quantitative outcomes- UOA results, etc. Not 'runs quieter' (you can stuff old bananas into the oil filler and engines run quieter).


Very true! lol



southcoastguy said:


> I wonder why drivers of cars using gasoline engines don't use additives (as much as diesel drivers)? I have been looking for a study of additives to show they make any difference in the life of engines.


I actually use Techron at oil changes in my gas cars and Lubro Moly has a additive called Valve Kleen that i use more often. So yea, im that guy



Doug Huffman said:


> I ran PS White in my TDI's and they ran fine. When I got the 35d I saw that additives were not recommended, and it's running fine so far. The TDI's did not have SCR or DPF and one user here associates very subtle chemistries with these systems problems.
> 
> As a kid a job for a summer was starting huge very old Caterpillar diesel engines and additives were not used in them, neither was starting fluid.


I know its kind of weird how BMW does not suggest additives, but they sell it for diesel vehicles. I know a good share of BMW techs, I'm going to start asking around see what actually gets done at the dealerships.

Either way, just wanted to post my un-scientific experience. Like mentioned I think a lot has to do with climate as well. The tanks here are usually marked 40 and we go through all four seasons here, so i'm sure thats plays a role.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Nyc Dito said:


> ...we go through all four seasons here, so i'm sure thats plays a role.


What role, please?

We also enjoy four seasons here and in my travels. Here, 'winter' is six months, from Halloween to May Day, with freezing temperatures, icy snowy roads and two months of sub-zero. Spring is the thaw in May and June. Summer is July and early August. The colors turn and temperatures cool through September and October.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

ard said:


> Dont know enough about specifics to make comments. Been around cummins and ford diesel sites in the past, quite a few run additives.... Id prefer quantitative outcomes- UOA results, etc. Not 'runs quieter' (you can stuff old bananas into the oil filler and engines run quieter).


That was probably because they were pre-SCR/DPF/DOC trucks when manufactures used to recommend additives. I know when I worked at Cummins, we stopped recommending additives because we did not know the long term effects of the emission systems and did not have time to test these additives due to the short time between each EPA mandate. We had a hard enough time testing the emissions system in that short period of time let alone additives. Given that we had to warranty these systems for a long time due to federal emissions mandates, we did not want to take the chance. It wasn't until just recently that Cummins started endorsing fuel additives again.

Sure, most additives were better for the engine in every test we ran, but the liability would have been on us if using them effected the emissions systems so we stopped recommending them. I can imagine other manufacturers probably stopped recommending them for the same reason.


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## FredoinSF (Nov 29, 2009)

When I first bought my X5 6 years ago, I read several reports (including a vigorous and sometimes downright nasty discussion here) and started using Diesel Kleen about every other fill up. The main reason was that I was concerned over long term use of the US diesel fuel which has lower lubricity than the euro version, and potential failure of fuel pump or injectors. At the time, there was not enough data about the longevity of those components, we just knew that the fuel was different and that low lubricity could be a factor leading to early fuel pump failures. 
I’m no longer fearful of early fuel pump and / or injector death caused by US diesel fuel formula. Just have not seen any reports of it and if it were a pervasive issue it would have come up by now. 
I still give my car a shot of the diesel Kleen periodically, but it might be every third tank more so than every other tank these days. 
FWIW I also used to be regular user of the Propel fuel that is available in CA. Basically my car has had a mix of Regular D2, winterized D2, regular / winterized D2 with Diesel Kleen, Propel and the pie chart would show fairly even distribution of each. Bought the car with 11k miles, now at 98k, zero issues other than a weak thermostat that was replaced at about 70k.

As to BMW admonishing the use of additives, it is the best policy they could have in place to limit their research costs and warranty liability. Why would they pay to research and recommend a specific additive? There is no benefit to them. By saying no additives allowed, they have a way out of warranty claim if an unsuitable additive is used or a theoretically beneficial additive is improperly used. I obviously was not deterred, just like I don’t believe bmw has my best interest at heart with their oil change intervals and fantasy talk of other drive line fluids being lifetime. 

My mantra is do your research to the level you are comfortable with, then do what you feel is right for your car. It is your car.



Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest


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## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

Doug Huffman said:


> What role, please?
> 
> We also enjoy four seasons here and in my travels. Here, 'winter' is six months, from Halloween to May Day, with freezing temperatures, icy snowy roads and two months of sub-zero. Spring is the thaw in May and June. Summer is July and early August. The colors turn and temperatures cool through September and October.


I guess I really meant to say that the diesel pumps have winter/summer blends. Maybe living in southern Cali or Florida, they might not have issues from having winter blend fuel. I have NO idea, just a thought.


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## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

alacey said:


> That was probably because they were pre-SCR/DPF/DOC trucks when manufactures used to recommend additives. I know when I worked at Cummins, we stopped recommending additives because we did not know the long term effects of the emission systems and did not have time to test these additives due to the short time between each EPA mandate. We had a hard enough time testing the emissions system in that short period of time let alone additives. Given that we had to warranty these systems for a long time due to federal emissions mandates, we did not want to take the chance. It wasn't until just recently that Cummins started endorsing fuel additives again.
> 
> Sure, most additives were better for the engine in every test we ran, but the liability would have been on us if using them effected the emissions systems so we stopped recommending them. I can imagine other manufacturers probably stopped recommending them for the same reason.





FredoinSF said:


> When I first bought my X5 6 years ago, I read several reports (including a vigorous and sometimes downright nasty discussion here) and started using Diesel Kleen about every other fill up. The main reason was that I was concerned over long term use of the US diesel fuel which has lower lubricity than the euro version, and potential failure of fuel pump or injectors. At the time, there was not enough data about the longevity of those components, we just knew that the fuel was different and that low lubricity could be a factor leading to early fuel pump failures.
> I'm no longer fearful of early fuel pump and / or injector death caused by US diesel fuel formula. Just have not seen any reports of it and if it were a pervasive issue it would have come up by now.
> I still give my car a shot of the diesel Kleen periodically, but it might be every third tank more so than every other tank these days.
> FWIW I also used to be regular user of the Propel fuel that is available in CA. Basically my car has had a mix of Regular D2, winterized D2, regular / winterized D2 with Diesel Kleen, Propel and the pie chart would show fairly even distribution of each. Bought the car with 11k miles, now at 98k, zero issues other than a weak thermostat that was replaced at about 70k.
> ...


Thank you both as well, good info!


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

BMW doing "research" on aftermarket additives? Ha. The additive makers don't do it, why should BMW!

Manufacturers HAVE recommended specific products, often to "fix" some problems s.a. Toyota/Mazda/Mercedes changing their oil recommendations in reaction to oil gumming up hydraulic lifters and clogging small oil passageways. Techron recommended by BMW/Volvo/etc. for OHC valve deposits. CU having a campaign against using proper gasoline additives for this. AARCO making Teflon as part of their oil leading to clogging and depositing of the stuff inside engines.

There's more, but my truth meter was going off in the wrong direction.....


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Pierre Louis said:


> BMW doing "research" on aftermarket additives? Ha. The additive makers don't do it, why should BMW! [ ... ]


The Wikipedia lists three dozen gasoline ***8216;additives***8217; (including dyes) in a half dozen categories. I asked my NOT-G00gle search engine for ***8220;list diesel fuel additives***8221; and number one on the hit parade was an EPA list of hundreds of registered additives, unfortunately by brand name.

I suggest that properly cataloguing the effects of fuel additives is at least a daunting task and would be very expensive but to little benefit. I learned a doctor-aphorism, ***8220;Stuff with no side effects generally has no effect at all.***8221; It would seem to apply here.

Only a _naif_ would do his own additive _research_.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

I have a few friends who work for Southwest Research here in San Antonio. In fact my wife was very close to working their many years ago before she decided to go the pharmaceutical formulation scientist route. One of my friends that works there used to work fuels and lubricants department long before he moved to the defense/security department which mainly does research for the US military. 

I can assure you that SW research does do additive testing along with oil/fuel analysis for various additive producers, engine manufacturers, and the government on a regular basis even if it isn't published. They did a lot of lubrication and fuel testing for us at Cummins as well. They were also the ones that did the "Spicer analysis" many years ago that compared 19 different diesel fuel additives that is still circulated on the net today.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

alacey said:


> I have a few friends who work for Southwest Research here in San Antonio. In fact my wife was very close to working their many years ago before she decided to go the pharmaceutical formulation scientist route. One of my friends that works there used to work fuels and lubricants department long before he moved to the defense/security department which mainly does research for the US military.
> 
> I can assure you that SW research does do additive testing along with oil/fuel analysis for various additive producers, engine manufacturers, and the government on a regular basis even if it isn't published. They did a lot of lubrication and fuel testing for us at Cummins as well. They were also the ones that did the "Spicer analysis" many years ago that compared 19 different diesel fuel additives that is still circulated on the net today.


There has to be some "research" for fuel additives from the fuel supplier to meet ASTM and other standards. The oft quoted Bosch presentation promoting improved lubricity for FUTURE development of their fuel pumps as well as the Spicer study of non-additized raw diesel with aftermarket additives both do not apply to aftermarket additives mixing with retail fuel in any statistical (read: scientific) way. EPA does not test for the truthfulness of any claims except for compatibility.

The other problem with the lack of data involving aftermarket additives is that their producers can alter the formula (i.e. dilute it) at any time so approval of a specific additive does not seem to be useful anyway.


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## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

alacey said:


> They did a lot of lubrication and fuel testing for us at Cummins as well. They were also the ones that did the "Spicer analysis" many years ago that compared 19 different diesel fuel additives that is still circulated on the net today.


And that report rated Optilube #2 which is pretty cool I guess. I wish the report or actual testing could get a update. I'd love to see where Lubro holds up.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*SwRI Fleet Testing Fuels and Lubricants*


Axle and Axle Lubricant Evaluations, Heavy-Duty
Axle and Axle Lubricant Evaluations, Light-Duty
Truck Axle Lubricant Fuel Economy
Crankcase Engine Lubricant Fuel Economy
Truck Fuel Economy Improvements
Durability and Reliability Evaluation of Engine/Vehicle Compatibility
Road Simulators/Mileage Accumulation Dynamometers
Vehicle Test Tracks
Off-Highway Evaluations
John Deere Engine Coolant Cavitation Test
Intake System and Combustion Chamber Deposits
Intake Valve-Sticking Evaluations
Vehicle Driveability and Performance Testing
Vehicle Octane Requirement and ORI Evaluations
Alternative Fuels Testing (Methanol, Ethanol, Natural Gas and others)
Octane Requirement Increase (ORI)
Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) Fuel Injector Deposits
Intake Valve Deposits in GDI Engines

https://www.swri.org/fuels-lubricants/fleet-testing. Each number is the heading of a paragraph description of the testing. As best as I can tell the work product report papers are not publicly accessible.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Doug Huffman said:


> Axle and Axle Lubricant Evaluations, Heavy-Duty
> Axle and Axle Lubricant Evaluations, Light-Duty
> Truck Axle Lubricant Fuel Economy
> Crankcase Engine Lubricant Fuel Economy
> ...


"Additives" as in pre-market ones mixed by the fuel suppliers are probably the most common. Testing aftermarket additives is a bit more complex due to variability of the fuel supplied. Would be nice if any of the aftermarket suppliers actually published the data. CU doesn't publish their data either so no surprise.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Pierre Louis said:


> There has to be some "research" for fuel additives from the fuel supplier to meet ASTM and other standards. The oft quoted Bosch presentation promoting improved lubricity for FUTURE development of their fuel pumps as well as the Spicer study of non-additized raw diesel with aftermarket additives both do not apply to aftermarket additives mixing with retail fuel in any statistical (read: scientific) way. EPA does not test for the truthfulness of any claims except for compatibility.
> 
> The other problem with the lack of data involving aftermarket additives is that their producers can alter the formula (i.e. dilute it) at any time so approval of a specific additive does not seem to be useful anyway.


There has actually been a lot of research on diesel/gasoline fuel additives done by Southwest Research according to my friends that work there. However, it is paid for by various entities and isn't published on the internet for free unless that entity wishes to do so. I have also seen many SAE research publications on the fuel additives back when I had a paid membership through Cummins. You may be able to see summaries of those publications for free on their site, but you will have to have an SAE membership or pay for the article to view it.

So just because some may not have seen research published for free on the internet about fuel additives does not mean there has not been any research done. It is kind of like the old "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" philosophical question about ones perception versus reality/fact. Many times they may not be the same.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

A citation to "my friend" is not. Sci-hub.tw can hop almost any paywall. Either make a competent citation or ...

https://sci-hub.tw/

A principle aborning of academic literature is Open Access.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Makes no difference to me or to the truth if you don't want to believe what I am saying.

Feel free to call them at the number in the link below to verify what I am saying if you like.

Southwest Research Fuels & Lubricants 

A quick search "additives" here and it clearly shows that fuel additives are apart of their testing.

Southwest Research Institute Capabilities

Although you guys must suck at Google because googling "Southwest research diesel fuel additives pdf" shows a whole list of PDF papers on additive testing done by or assisted by Southwest Research like these.

CleanBoost Combustion Catalyst Diesel Fuel Additive 

Diesel Fuel Additives: Use and Efficacy for Alaska's Diesel Generators


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## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

alacey said:


> Makes no difference to me or to the truth if you don't want to believe what I am saying.
> 
> Feel free to call them at the number in the link below to verify what I am saying if you like.
> 
> ...


some good reading there!


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

Nyc Dito said:


> some good reading there!


Yeah. Just use their additive, only put in "CleanBoost treated reference fuel" and get, uh, wait for it, "0.011% change in fuel economy with a standard deviation of 0.043%" for 5 or 6 samples tested.

This, and with heavy reference to EPA does not satisfy proof that their "additive" which may be necessary to treat raw diesel, is at all cost effective or useful as an aftermarket additive.

Great for fuel distributors or fleet sales, not marketing to consumers.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Oh, but it is sixty pages long, there must be something worth the cost of performance.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

alacey said:


> Diesel Fuel Additives: Use and Efficacy for Alaska's Diesel Generators


Final paragraph of *Executive Summary:* "To date, the authors of this report have found no credible information from any of our sources to support the claim that any product can improve the operating efficiency above that of a well-maintained diesel engine. We recommend bona fide testing of additives where controlled conditions can be insured. Use of test facilities and rigorous protocols will increase the understanding of the efficacy of-and improve the credibility of-representations of additives. At this time, no candidate additive for improving fuel efficiency has been identified for such extensive laboratory testing. However, augmenting testing of additives or add-on devices at utility sites by use of unbiased, third-party analysts could bring more understanding to the testing and help identify promising additives.
[ ... ]
*Recommendations*
Continue to assess the need for cleaning agents in fuels, and the appropriate use of those kinds of additives in engines of all ages to help ensure long life and manufactures***8217; new-engine performance.
Work to ensure good mixing of additives into the fuels, with increased attention the closer the point of introduction of the additive is to the utility. Adding additives to fuel tanks adjacent to the power plant requires attention to the physical mixing, temperatures of the fuel and the additive, and the mixing ratio. These conditions are often better controlled during delivery of the fuel to the region, and best controlled by the fuel producer or bulk distributor.
Seek _bona fide_ testing of additives where controlled conditions can be insured and thereby increase the credibility of the findings. At this time, no candidate additive for improving fuel efficiency has been
36
identified for such extensive laboratory testing. Augmenting testing of additives or add-on devices at utility sites by use of unbiased, third-party analysts could bring more understanding of the testing and help identify promising additives. [Emphasis in the original]***8221;

This report was of particular personal interest for living on an Island that generated all electric power used until the late Fifties. Even now three sets of the four pairs of DG are maintained as 2.5 MWe standby power sources and are regularly run and loaded. This past winter our underwater power cable was damaged by an ice shove and has been recently replaced.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

alacey said:


> Although you guys must suck at Google because googling ... shows a whole list of PDF papers on additive testing done by or assisted by ... like these.


Alphabet G00gle sells placement.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Doug Huffman said:


> Final paragraph of *Executive Summary:* "To date, the authors of this report have found n......


Uh!?! What the heck does that have to do with whether or not Southwest Research does diesel fuel additive testing? We were not discussing the effectiveness of additives.

Lets recap. Peirre said that there was nobody doing testing on additives in post #15 and I stated that I personally know someone who works for Southwest Research that tests additives all the time in post #17. You tried to prove me wrong in post #20 showing that Southwest Research doesn't do additive testing by posting the the type of research their fleet testing department does even though it is their fuels and lubricants department that does additive testing which I posted. You then called me out again in post #23 with a passive aggressive post saying that the word of a friend is useless in post #23 so I proved with data backing up what I was saying that Southwest research does do additive testing in post #24.

You called me out trying to infer that Southwest Research does not do diesel fuel additive testing and I proved that wrong with evidence that they do perform diesel fuel additive testing so why are you trying to switch our debate to the effectiveness of additives with this post when that was NOT what we were debating? So either show proof that Southwest Research does not do diesel fuel additive testing or stop trying to call me out saying my words and the words of my friends are false or not valid.


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## Pierre Louis (Oct 23, 2011)

alacey said:


> Uh!?! What the heck does that have to do with whether or not Southwest Research does diesel fuel additive testing? We were not discussing the effectiveness of additives.
> 
> Lets recap. Peirre said that there was nobody doing testing on additives in post #15 and I stated that I personally know someone who works for Southwest Research that tests additives all the time in post #17. You tried to prove me wrong in post #20 showing that Southwest Research doesn't do additive testing by posting the the type of research their fleet testing department does even though it is their fuels and lubricants department that does additive testing which I posted. You then called me out again in post #23 with a passive aggressive post saying that the word of a friend is useless in post #23 so I proved with data backing up what I was saying that Southwest research does do additive testing in post #24.
> 
> You called me out trying to infer that Southwest Research does not do diesel fuel additive testing and I proved that wrong with evidence that they do perform diesel fuel additive testing so why are you trying to switch our debate to the effectiveness of additives with this post when that was NOT what we were debating? So either show proof that Southwest Research does not do diesel fuel additive testing or stop trying to call me out saying my words and the words of my friends are false or not valid.


When you say "additive" do you mean those that are used for fuel before market to satisfy regulations or those used by consumers that are bought at auto stores? Quite a difference. The latter are almost universally never tested and never published. No outcome studies unless done by an isolated fleet operator. Maybe we don't hear about these studies because the do not support the meme of additive benefits.


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Pierre Louis said:


> When you say "additive" do you mean those that are used for fuel before market to satisfy regulations or those used by consumers that are bought at auto stores? Quite a difference. The latter are almost universally never tested and never published. No outcome studies unless done by an isolated fleet operator. Maybe we don't hear about these studies because the do not support the meme of additive benefits.


They do testing on both. Again, I was not discussing the effectiveness of additives because that is dependent on too many variables. I was just saying that I know for sure that Southwest Research does do testing on aftermarket fuel additives on a regular basis.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

alacey said:


> a passive aggressive post saying that the word of a friend is useless ... saying my words and the words of my friends are false or not valid.





> Ah, passive aggression. The best way to handle conflict.
> Not.
> There's a reason why passive-aggressive behavior gets such a bad rap. Not only is it supremely frustrating for both parties involved, but it's also incredibly unproductive to the passive-aggressive person -- because his or her needs aren't actually ever acknowledged or addressed.
> And for the target of the passive aggression, experiencing this kind of behavior can "make you feel like a crazy person," explains Scott Wetzler, Ph.D., vice chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Montefiore Medical Center and author of Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man. "*You're being told what's happening isn't happening, and there's something very withholding about the interaction.* You know something is going on, and he's denying it."


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stop-being-passive-aggressive-behavior-signs_n_5515877


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## alacey (Mar 14, 2018)

Doug Huffman said:


> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stop-being-passive-aggressive-behavior-signs_n_5515877


And what does that have to do with Southwest Research performing diesel fuel additive testing? You called me out twice trying to infer that they don't perform fuel additive testing and I showed proof that they did. Now back up your statements with proof that they don't or stop trying to call me out and/or switch the conversation because you know you were wrong.


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## floydarogers (Oct 11, 2010)

Nyc Dito said:


> I know many do NOT use additives and some do. This is not to start a additive argument.


Sorry, but you don't get off with that statement. Remember, any testing has to go all ways (double-blind studies are the gold standard.)

My "observation" on additives is that they're unnecessary. I've never used any in my 335d, and I've got 135K on it, never had any fuel-related, drivability-related, starting, injector whatever. And I've never had CBU done, because it just hasn't been necessary to correct any problems.

(Caveat - I live in WA State, where we have the "better" California diesel, with 51-equivalent cetane, etc.)


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## Nyc Dito (Jun 11, 2015)

floydarogers said:


> Sorry, but you don't get off with that statement. Remember, any testing has to go all ways (double-blind studies are the gold standard.)
> 
> My "observation" on additives is that they're unnecessary. I've never used any in my 335d, and I've got 135K on it, never had any fuel-related, drivability-related, starting, injector whatever. And I've never had CBU done, because it just hasn't been necessary to correct any problems.
> 
> (Caveat - I live in WA State, where we have the "better" California diesel, with 51-equivalent cetane, etc.)


Awesome to hear your 335d has been trouble free! My 35d so far hasn't given me any issues aside from maintenance.

But its like when I had a 740i with 200k (50k I put myself) miles. Everyone said "do the timing its a ticking time bomb", and I never had ONE issue and the M62 purred like new.

51 Cetane would be great, but all the pumps I see here show 40 (which is minimum i think).


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## adurel (Jun 4, 2013)

My injector code went away after using Hot Shots EDT on my 335d (smoothness regulator, injector 2). Once I logged the amount of mileage that it is specifcied for, it came back. I added it again, and the code disappeared. It definitely improves mpg too, but not enough to be worth the cost if you don***8217;t have other issues. 

I recently added Liqui Moly DPF protector after I got a dpf 0480a code (yes, my thermostat has been replaced). I had pretty much cleared the code before I added it, so I don***8217;t think it necessarily did too much in the 5 minutes before my regeneration started. But I***8217;m curious if anyone else has used it. It***8217;s a catalyst and burns off soot at 250C EGT instead of the 600C necessary for a regeneration. I***8217;m noticing way less soot so far.


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

*Liqui Moly DPF Protector 7702 has no effect on DPF or regeneration*



adurel said:


> [ ... ]It's a catalyst and burns off soot at 250C EGT instead of the 600C necessary for a regeneration. ...


No ingredient of Liqui Moly DPF Protector 7703 is a catalyst and 600°C is not necessary for regeneration.

The ingredients of Liqui Moly DPF Protector 7703 are hydrocarbons, (C10-13, n-alkanes, isoalkanes, cyclics), and <2% aromatics 2-ethylhexanoic acid. Simple cheap petroleum distillates.



NewTIS said:


> *The following conditions must be fulfilled for a regeneration:*
> The coolant temperature must be in excess of 75 °C
> the exhaust-gas temperature before the diesel particle filter must be *greater than 240 °C*
> there must be enough fuel (fuel reserve indicator light is not lit up). Whenever the reserve lamp lights up, the regeneration process is suspended.
> ...


In the event of a long failure of _continuous regeneration_, the DDE can initiate a *periodic regeneration*, a 'forced' regeneration, by throttling the intake air with the throttle valve and late injections to raise EGT to ~600°C.

A catalyst is not consumed in the catalyzed reaction and can continue to act repeatedly.


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## adurel (Jun 4, 2013)

I had been considering a catalyst but ended up buying this product instead after reading a favorable review from a 335d owner. Apparently I mixed this product up with one that is a catalyst. So this one is snake oil?

Has anyone used a catalyst?

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/media/documents/M008600/2000_US_1557729272158_ctx-1.pdf


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## Doug Huffman (Apr 25, 2015)

Any automotive product advertising NANO, CERAMIC, CATALYST is snake-oil being marketed to credulous naifs with not even high school chemistry and too much money, more money than good sense.

ETA: I just stumbled across this comment on ethylhexylnitrate, 2-Ethylhexyl nitrate (2-EHN) is a major fuel additive, has been used to increase the cetane number of diesel.


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