# BMW admits mistakes surrounding 7-series



## Rich_Jenkins (Jul 12, 2003)

4th Coupe said:


> From the photos I've seen recently in I think Automobile mag.? the new 4 series (2 door coupe) look great. It will be good to see a real one. I have a new 6 on order due for delivery in July. Its one new BMW that I think they got right. :thumbup:


Hey, that is one nice looking ride. I was at my local getting some parts and while waiting I whiled away a few minutes outside.

They had a pair, one SG coupe and one drop top in white. I did not appreciate the SCALE of them to be honest, these are big wagons to be sure. But VERY nice as well!!

Congrats!!


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## Mpire (Mar 28, 2003)

Good grief.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

Dave 330i said:


> Why do you need to get burned before admitting that the house is on fire? Did BMW really think they could convince us to accept and like the design and i-Drive?


I'll never get what's wrong with idrive. I had it down in 10 minutes. It's no more complex than learning the menu structure of a new cell phone. People act like it's totally awkward and hard to grasp...yikes, these must be the same people with VCRs that flash 12:00.

Would I buy a car with idrive? Probably not. Especially if it had navi - something I'm loathe to own until i can't buy a car without it.


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## BloodRedHog (Mar 9, 2004)

BahnBaum said:


> Werd.
> 
> Alex


Ditto.

Every 3 I 've loved.
New 7 I choked.
New 5 I gagged.
Z4 I gave up.

Thus my purchase of the next to last 3 non-bangled.


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## brkf (May 26, 2003)

BloodRedHog said:


> Ditto.
> 
> Every 3 I 've loved.
> New 7 I choked.
> ...


New 7 design never bothered me. not sure what the big deal is. It's a big car and it's ugly. That last part of the sentence is redundant as big car basically means ugly.

I saw a z4 in LA in a parking lot months before it was released and I outright laughed at it. Slowly I'm growing to like it.

Didn't like the 5 at first. It reminded me of melted ice cream that was refrozen - you know all those creases of ice, weird angles. After a few months of seeing several a day on the road I must say I've grown to like it. In fact, I'm a little excited when I see a 545i. I don't think I'll ever move up to it but I'm now very fond of the design. I still don't like the total lack of a mid-door level line to break up the slab sides - but at least I don't park near anyone so door dings wouldn't be a concern.

The 1 series? Most pics make it look silly. Hopefully in person it'll be better.

Early pics of the 3 also make me bit uncomfortable. Slab-sided like the other new designs. Not chiseled and crouched enough for my tastes. The e46 may still be to me the sexiest car on the road.


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## Chris90 (Apr 7, 2003)

operknockity said:


> We are all very scared that the new design direction will be inflicted on the next generation 3ers so we'll be forced to find another marque when it comes time to get our next car.


Yes, exactly. Most of us don't plan on buying a 5 or 7, at least until we're old and no longer drive with two hands.


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## 16hr Day (Apr 17, 2004)

wingspan said:


> Hey, that is one nice looking ride. I was at my local getting some parts and while waiting I whiled away a few minutes outside.
> 
> They had a pair, one SG coupe and one drop top in white. I did not appreciate the SCALE of them to be honest, these are big wagons to be sure. But VERY nice as well!!
> 
> Congrats!!


I agree, the new six looks like J-Lo, a great face, sexy body, with a big fat ass! :thumbup:


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## Mpire (Mar 28, 2003)

The problem is, I dont find J-Lo attractive.


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## Guest (May 28, 2004)

Mpire said:


> The problem is, I dont find J-Lo attractive.


 :stupid:


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## AB (Jan 11, 2002)

TD said:


> :stupid:


  :stupid:


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## Guest (May 28, 2004)

Ryan330i said:


> :stupid:


 This is twice today. :eeps:


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Buy Lotto tickets - both of you. :eeps: 


-


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## zhangqj (Apr 6, 2003)

The whole discussion about how ugly the Bangled butt of 7 series misses an important part of constituence. That is that I for one don't think the butt is ugly. However I do have two big problems, namely too much electronics and too many quality problems (=money or time). LS430 isn't so great looking, yet its customers seem genuinly happy. The BMW engineers or their management forgot to incorporate quality into the design, and that is a much harder problem to correct than rooting out a couple of special causes in the assembly process.


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## bmw325 (Dec 19, 2001)

zhangqj said:


> The whole discussion about how ugly the Bangled butt of 7 series misses an important part of constituence. That is that I for one don't think the butt is ugly. However I do have two big problems, namely too much electronics and too many quality problems (=money or time). LS430 isn't so great looking, yet its customers seem genuinly happy. The BMW engineers or their management forgot to incorporate quality into the design, and that is a much harder problem to correct than rooting out a couple of special causes in the assembly process.


Agree. And, in therms of assmebly quality, BMW seems to do fine. The quality problems that do arise are almost exclusively due to poor design.


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## Chendol (Jul 15, 2003)

*Fortune article*



PhilH said:


> I found the beginning of the Fortune article. Anyone with a subscription?
> 
> http://www.fortune.com/fortune/ceo/articles/0,15114,589308,00.html


Here's the Fortune article I posted previously...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53855


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## postoak (Mar 5, 2002)

elbert said:


> When I first saw the E36, I didn't like it for the first year. After awhile, it started to look just right. Same with the E46. I know others who feel the same.


Interesting how we often assume everybody is the same as we are in certain ways. For me, and many others, we know immediately whether we like a design. A bad one never grows on us.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

Dawg90 said:


> Let me paraphrase: "We admit our customers are too backward to appreciate our clever new designs."


BINGO!

This sort of thing is born from the same phenom that produces rich elitist society snobs that frequent NYC art studios and fawn over piles of animal dung as "brilliant art" and then sneer at the rest of us common folk for seeing it for what it truly is: A pile of sh!t.

The difference here is, BMW has to sell the sh!t to the eyes-wide-open masses.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

robg said:


> It is funny that BMW thinks it was just a matter of not explaining things. Actually, I think we're all sick of hearing them try to explain i-drive and the 7er styling. They can't seem to grasp the obvious problem: the designs are not good. As others have said, you don't need to explain good design or "prepare" people for it. I guess this is as far as they can go to publicly admitting fault.


And what just amazes me is that after all the success of th E46 -- and I'm only speaking to styling here, not even accounting for the other hugely successful aspects of the platform -- they didn't evolve that basic design concept forward into the newer models for the 7 and the 5. Go figure.

The E46 is one of the most attractive BMWs ever, and has recieved almost universal press accolades as such.


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

Ryan330i said:


> TD said:
> 
> 
> > Mpire said:
> ...


:stupid:, :stupid: , and :stupid:


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

RKT BMR said:


> This sort of thing is born from the same phenom that produces rich elitist society snobs that frequent NYC art studios and fawn over piles of animal dung as "brilliant art" and then sneer at the rest of us common folk for seeing it for what it truly is: A pile of sh!t.


Actually, while I don't fit the above stereotype, I saw that controversial art exhibition at the Brooklyn Museum, and almost everything there had something to say and made you look at society and life from very different perspectives. Few of the exhibits were actual paintings, but instead involved all manner of materials and living and dead creatures to say something about our world. I consider myself more or less "common folk" and don't like going to art museums, but I would recommend to a lot of people to go see that exhibition. (I can explain more about the exhibits in an off-topic thread if people are interested.)



rkt bmr said:


> And what just amazes me is that after all the success of th E46 -- and I'm only speaking to styling here, not even accounting for the other hugely successful aspects of the platform -- they didn't evolve that basic design concept forward into the newer models for the 7 and the 5. Go figure.


The E46 is an evolutionary design. It shares a lot with its own previous generation (E36) and its bigger brothers (the E39 and E38). If you look at the lines and details of these cars side by side, they all share similar characteristics, which is what I love about them in the first place.

I'm not defending the 7 design, but it's clear Bangle and BMW wanted to get revolutionary and raise eyebrows, so not to disagree with your point, it was a conscious and deliberate decision to move away from the design direction that sculpted the E46. I think the logic was they didn't want to get complacent and take the obvious path.


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## postoak (Mar 5, 2002)

That's fine but Bangle is paid the big bucks to be revolutionary and MAKE A GOOD-LOOKING design. He failed.


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## fuzyfuzer (May 30, 2004)

i'll trade my e39 to anyone with the new designs but i am sure no one that has one will want to trade because there are a lot of people happy with them i am one of them i love i drive i think it is very simple and easy and i also like the cars in person maybe not in pictures but in person


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

FenPhen said:


> Actually, while I don't fit the above stereotype, I saw that controversial art exhibition at the Brooklyn Museum,


I made no reference to any particular exhibition. I was making a generic point.

Legitimate, meaningful art can of course be created out of any medium, including dung. It seems to me that you missed the point I was making, which is that there is all sorts of "art" that constitutes nothing more than acts of mental masturbation, and an effete elitist snob class insularly pat each other on the back for how much deep meaning they can all see in a pile of bolts and washers dumped from a can on a magnet, or a paper plate with a cowpie on it, or... and that the rest of us boorish common folk just aren't sophisticated enough to "get it". You get the point (I hope).

I've been to half a dozen shows like this in San Francisco, and have pissed off (and made enemies of) quite a few people for pressing them to explain the "deep meaning" of some of these pieces beyond the completely meaningless, abstract platitudes they spew about such "art". Unable to explain it, they get mad and stomp off, usually. Such junk is not about art at all, but is simple about social status and fashion.


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## audiophilia (Mar 25, 2003)

When the Z4 and 7 first came out, I was sceptical. I grown to love the look of both, contrary to so much criticism.

The 5 has taken much longer to like, but admit to liking the look in the darker colours. Think the new 4, from the spy shots looks amazing. Love the new 6, too...

Guess the market is driving the new 1/2 Series. Hope we are not going the MB route -- design 'em quick, sell 'em quick, and the hell with our values and quality. From the look of the new 1, looks like a Matrix


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## FenPhen (Jan 13, 2004)

RKT BMR said:


> Legitimate, meaningful art can of course be created out of any medium, including dung. It seems to me that you missed the point I was making, which is that there is all sorts of "art" that constitutes nothing more than acts of mental masturbation, and an effete elitist snob class insularly pat each other on the back for how much deep meaning they can all see in a pile of bolts and washers dumped from a can on a magnet, or a paper plate with a cowpie on it, or... and that the rest of us boorish common folk just aren't sophisticated enough to "get it". You get the point (I hope).


Yeah, I know what you mean. I strolled through the art museum on campus once and saw this one exhibit that was an old black office chair sitting off-center on a white platform. I didn't get it.

Still, while I understand the snob you're describing, I wouldn't say all of them are full of bull****. I know some hardcore musicians that will try to share with me the joy they experience with a complex piece of classical music with crazy unmelodic rhythms that just sounds like purposeful noise to me, and while I myself was a musician but not at that level, I just didn't get it, and let them appreciate it how they do. Does popularity make art legitimate?

People that create things are naturally gonna be much more engaged in their craft than their audience, so I can understand how Bangle and other BMW designers can get so excited about their design language but manage to lose the rest of us. While I'm no fan of the new BMWs, a lot of these same designers worked on the styles that we love, and people on this board say Bangle had a lot to do with the E46.

I guess my point is I wouldn't compare the new designs to s***.


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## andy_thomas (Oct 7, 2002)

audiophilia said:


> Guess the market is driving the new 1/2 Series. Hope we are not going the MB route -- design 'em quick, sell 'em quick, and the hell with our values and quality. From the look of the new 1, looks like a Matrix


Values? How about 50 mpg, six airbags, 140 mph and (a quite pointless) 0-60 in 7.6 sec from 163 bhp's worth of diesel four? How is that against BMW values?


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## RKT BMR (Sep 7, 2002)

FenPhen said:


> Still, while I understand the snob you're describing, I wouldn't say all of them are full of bull****. I know some hardcore musicians that will try to share with me the joy they experience with a complex piece of classical music with crazy unmelodic rhythms that just sounds like purposeful noise to me, and while I myself was a musician but not at that level, I just didn't get it, and let them appreciate it how they do.


Please don't misunderstand me to be painting with an overly broad brush. There are certainly plenty of artists that produce works that are legitimately beautiful and/or deeply meaningful to them, and select others that can "get it". I'm not talking about such noble people as that.

Rather, I'm referring to the much larger crowd of socialites and other bluebloods, as well as newly rich that snob around about crap because it is socially fashionable. It's the same thing as the "in" crowd vs. the "out" crowd sort of nonsense. And there's more of this going on in the art world today than is tolerable, IMO.


FenPhen said:


> Does popularity make art legitimate?


Complex question. Also context dependent.

Certainly popular appeal is a factor in most contexts where an artists work is intended for public display. Not the sole factor, nor even the dominant one, but an important factor that can not be dismissed.

Talent is certainly a significant factor as well. When I see "art" that is being oohed and ahhhed over that is absolutely no different than the piles of junk in my garage, I'm not impressed, nor am I willing to entertain that I "just don't get it". Rather, I think the effete snobs fawning over it are the one's that "just don't get it". They are blind to what dupes they are, while the "artist" is laughing all the way to the bank for selling them an empty 10w40 oil bottle nailed to a foot long 2x4 with "modern automobile" scrawled on the board with an El Marko.

I can come up with that kind of crap all day long. The only reason I can't sell it for $20,000 is I'm not "in". And that's my point: Being able to show one's junk in studios and be praised for it these days is far too often a measure of an "artist's" social standing in the art and social snob subculture more than it is any indication of the merits of the work.

Painting is perhaps one of the best examples of legitimate, meritorious art. It's hard work. It takes skill, talent, and lots of practice to get good. Some painting artwork is very disturbing; some very hard to understand. However, it is always obvious whether the artist had to actually do something of significance to express themselves. When they don't, you wind up with the sort of nonsense pawned off as "art" like throwing a paint-filled sponge at the canvas a few times, sitting on it to leave a butt impression, then showing it as something profound and artful.

Music equivalent: Plucking a single note on a guitar string. PROFOUND! (This has happened  )

So, like I said, it's a complex question, and frankly, there isn't any absolute, right answer. However, context can narrow it down, as I'll point out in a minute:


FenPhen said:


> People that create things are naturally gonna be much more engaged in their craft than their audience, so I can understand how Bangle and other BMW designers can get so excited about their design language but manage to lose the rest of us.


And here's where we part, and where the context comes in. I don't understand this, not at all. BMW is a car company. The measure of success is tilted decidedly in favor of public acceptance. Bangle et al are not hired to shock the world, or "take us where we don't want to go" (their idiotic explanation). They are there to sell cars, so they'd better design cars that the target market finds aesthetically pleasing. This is a form of art too, of course, but it is constrained by its context. So, if they go off on some whacko direction that is only appreciated at elite cocktail parties, they can get all smarmy and self-congratulatory for how superior they are to the rest of us rubes, but we have the last laugh because we don't have to buy their cars. And since the cars are firstly vehicles, not works of art, they _lose_.

Which basically was the whole point of this thread, and this discussion.


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## e46shift (Oct 12, 2002)

RKT BMR said:


> Please don't misunderstand me to be painting with an overly broad brush. There are certainly plenty of artists that produce works that are legitimately beautiful and/or deeply meaningful to them, and select others that can "get it". I'm not talking about such noble people as that.
> 
> Rather, I'm referring to the much larger crowd of socialites and other bluebloods, as well as newly rich that snob around about crap because it is socially fashionable. It's the same thing as the "in" crowd vs. the "out" crowd sort of nonsense. And there's more of this going on in the art world today than is tolerable, IMO.Complex question. Also context dependent.
> 
> ...


 :whip:


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## Fifty_Cent (Sep 17, 2003)

fuzyfuzer said:


> i'll trade my e39 to anyone with the new designs but i am sure no one that has one will want to trade because there are a lot of people happy with them i am one of them i love i drive i think it is very simple and easy and i also like the cars in person maybe not in pictures but in person


No wonder your nick is fuzyfuzer!!!


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