# Don't. Drive. Toyotas.



## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

caradd said:


> This test proves nothing. I'm sure you can short out any car and something bad will happen.
> 
> So there are 2 main things you can do if the accelorator sticks use the brakes which should stop the car or put the car in neutral. How could both of these things fail at the same time?
> 
> I'm not buying it.


watch again. Steps on brakes they no a worka.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

obmd1 said:


> false. And even if it weren't, put. the car. in neutral.


REWATCH THE VIDEO.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/expert-electronic-design-flaw-linked-runaway-toyot as/story?id=9909319

Brian Ross at 2:15 "Brakes don't work. Brakes gave out."

Neutral drop BEFORE BRAKE FAIL is the only option.


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## 800dog (Jan 2, 2008)

I purchased my 2nd Tacoma last year. My first, a '99 , was the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. In ten years, all I did was change oil/fluids and replace the water pump. I was also amazed at the price I got for it when I sold it. My '09 already has more rattles than the '99 but overall, I am happy with the truck. Toyota will resolve the issues and continue to make reliable yet boring cars.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

335diesel said:


> This isn't a conspiracy by US car manufacturers (some of the failed parts are made in the US...) by any chance...? ;-)
> 
> Seems odd that a company with a superb record for quality and reliability is suddenly in the news for multiple recalls...


Their record was "superb" for 3 reasons: 1. They do make "reliable" cars, 2. Toyota actively killed stories about the problems with their cars for the good part of a decade. 3. The drivers of Toyota are so loyal and aloof about cars that even if there was a problem, they are likely not going to report it because they are more forgiving with their Toyotas and they may be aloof that there even is a problem.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

pony_trekker said:


> Well I know that. But BMW sells 13k cars a year compared to 140k for GM. Ergo it isn't a threat to the big three is all I'm saying.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesE


BMW sells 13K cars a year?? GM sells 140K cars a year?? Those #'s are way off.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

pony_trekker said:


> watch again. Steps on brakes they no a worka.


+1


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## MrBones (Oct 26, 2007)

I think it's hysterical that a car company with defects involving unintended accelerations still using the slogan "Toyota-Moving Forward.":rofl:


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

800dog said:


> toyota will resolve the issues and continue to make reliable yet *boring cars*.


+1,000,000


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

MrBones said:


> I think it's hysterical that a car company with defects involving unintended accelerations still using the slogan "Toyota-Moving Forward.":rofl:


That's hilarious....totally forgot about that slogan. So maybe they are honest after all:rofl:


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## zoltrix (Mar 14, 2007)

thebmw said:


> ..The drivers of Toyota are so loyal and aloof about cars that even if there was a problem, they are likely not going to report it because they are more forgiving with their Toyotas and they may be aloof that there even is a problem.


Huh.

I wonder what other company has such loyal followers that are just as aloof about other cars as the Toyota owners supposedly are.

Anybody know?


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

zoltrix said:


> Huh.
> 
> I wonder what other company has such loyal followers that are just as aloof about other cars as the Toyota owners supposedly are.
> 
> Anybody know?


I see where you are going...BMW. For the record, I think BMW fan boys are just as annoying. However, my point was, that most Toyota owner HATE driving. They see it as a huge inconvenience. Lexus drivers are even worse. Most of them rarely know anything about cars...if they did, they wouldn't buy Toyota. They only buy it for this perceived "perfection".

Fan boys are annoying, but it's worse when you're a fan boy and you don't even know anything about the product!!


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

zoltrix said:


> Huh.
> 
> I wonder what other company has such loyal followers that are just as aloof about other cars as the Toyota owners supposedly are.
> 
> Anybody know?


Lexus? 

I think they all are to some extent. When all of this Toyota stuff started, I saw people on Ford forums saying things like "that is why I own a Ford". Find statements like that funny when the last 4 new Fords I bought in the past 15 years all had recalls on parts that could potentiomally burn the thing to the ground.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

Snipe656 said:


> We had an Audi 5000S that we bought new back in the 80s and I think it was 60 Minutes that claimed later they had unintended acceleration problems. Totally killed the value of the car and really hurt Audi for awhile. Some tests later though found it was really from people coming from other cars with the pedals done differently(widths of pedals I think) and they were actually hitting the gas when thinking they were going to hit the brake.


+1

My first car was a used 1979 Audi 5000S. It was recalled for "unintended acceleration" that was eventually found to be driver error. :eeps:

Toyota's issue is real.

Anyway, although I appreciate the Autoblog link but I have to move this to the proper forum.

- Mike


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## obmd1 (Jan 17, 2005)

pony_trekker said:


> REWATCH THE VIDEO.
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/expert-electronic-design-flaw-linked-runaway-toyot as/story?id=9909319
> 
> ...


http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/464401-post25.html

only needs to work once.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Snipe656 said:


> Lexus?
> 
> I think they all are to some extent. When all of this Toyota stuff started, I saw people on Ford forums saying things like "that is why I own a Ford". Find statements like that funny when the last 4 new Fords I bought in the past 15 years all had recalls on parts that could potentiomally burn the thing to the ground.


True...Ford is actually the American version of Toyota. They have had a lot of recalls and cover ups. Remember the Firestone tires on the Explorer. There are other examples as well. Ford is the darling child now since they didn't take bailout money.


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## pony_trekker (May 26, 2003)

800dog said:


> I purchased my 2nd Tacoma last year. My first, a '99 , was the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. In ten years, all I did was change oil/fluids and replace the water pump. I was also amazed at the price I got for it when I sold it. My '09 already has more rattles than the '99 but overall, I am happy with the truck. Toyota will resolve the issues and continue to make reliable yet boring cars.


I had a 2005 4runner that cost me a fortune to (1) maintain and (2) repair once I wore through the warranty. This was after the epic fail, died-on-road-for-21-days episode that caused me to nearly lemon the thing at 11k.


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

Toyota is/was at the the top of the world-wide automotive industry in sales and quality. Naturally, the leader is someone that is scrutinized further than other companies might be. I think this issue is blown out of proportion but at the same time very serious. Unintentional acceleration, brakes that may hesitate for up to 1 second, failing power steering...these are serious issues that can very quickly become dangerous. BMWs HPFP woes seem minor compared to this.

I think Toyota will get this sorted out but for now, they are under the microscope and often, when one is under the microscope, all kinds of things will come up and be found. I am sure every car maker right now is checking their systems twice, making sure they will not have similar issues pop up. So in a way, Toyota is helping the industry as a whole, hopefully, make safer automobiles. At the very least, it shows us that statistics can be blown out of proportion (when it comes to quality) and that the trust you established with your clientele over decades can be lost very very quickly.


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## mecodoug (Nov 30, 2007)

pony_trekker said:


> Well I know that. But BMW sells 13k cars a year compared to 140k for GM. Ergo it isn't a threat to the big three is all I'm saying.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesE


Those are monthly numbers for US sales only. But the ratio is still OK, at least for US sales. I found that interesting that BMW sells more than twice as many cars here as Audi.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

cwinter said:


> Toyota is/was at the the top of the world-wide automotive industry in sales and quality. Naturally, the leader is someone that is scrutinized further than other companies might be.


It's not a scrutinization issue as much as it's an arrogance issue. Toyota got to big and bloated. Their hubris of perfection finally was exposed. It's wonderful when arrogant crooks get exposed, isn't it?


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## cwinter (Feb 3, 2009)

thebmw said:


> It's not a scrutinization issue as much as it's an arrogance issue. Toyota got to big and bloated. Their hubris of perfection finally was exposed.  It's wonderful when arrogant crooks get exposed, isn't it?


I am not sure if it's wonderful but certainly interesting if not ironic. The company that was lauded for best quality for years suddenly has major issues with components people take for granted to just work in ANY car.

What is troubling though is accusations of trying to sweep it under the carpet to some degree, which is where I feel they are being overly scrutinized. Someone found a small crack in their picture-perfect image and they keep hacking away. This will take a while for Toyota to overcome...

I was surprised to see this morning that Toyota still ran a local add touting decades of quality and reliability when for a while they seemed to have switched to a more apologetic message about their recent issues.


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## jat335i (Jan 11, 2010)

Don't drive toyotas? How about watch out for toyotas all around you because there may a runaway heading right at you. :yikes:


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

thebmw said:


> It's not a scrutinization issue as much as it's an arrogance issue. Toyota got to big and bloated. Their hubris of perfection finally was exposed. It's wonderful when arrogant crooks get exposed, isn't it?


+1 Toyota = GM

They grew, added Scion and Lexus, much like GM had Chevy, Olds, Merc, etc.

All those crappy parts are shared across model lines.

What is the issue? Crappy parts? Nope. As many have pointed out all cars have issues from time to time.

Toyota's issue is plain arrogance and they will alienate loyal customers.

GM started going downhill around 1975-1980

Toyota started sliding around 1985-1990, it took over a decade for the quality issues to surface and it will take a decade or more to repair the damage. This did not happen over night and they won't solve it in 3 months or even 3 years.


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## obmd1 (Jan 17, 2005)

and one wonders what all of this does (not really) to the value of their heretofore unaffected models, like the much-loved 4runner.


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## NetSpySD (Dec 28, 2007)

*Toyota president: We grew too big, too fast in US*

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyot...2.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=

NEW YORK (AP) -- Toyota's president says the automaker compromised quality by growing too quickly in the U.S., but it will take steps to improve quality control.

Here we go again...

*"GM is putting quality on the road"*

*"At Ford, quality is Job 1"*

*"Toyota, putting safety first, and stopping ability second."*


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

thebmw said:


> I see where you are going...BMW. For the record, I think BMW fan boys are just as annoying. However, my point was, that most *Toyota owner HATE driving. They see it as a huge inconvenience*. Lexus drivers are even worse. Most of them rarely know anything about cars...if they did, they wouldn't buy Toyota. They only buy it for this perceived "perfection".
> 
> Fan boys are annoying, but it's worse when you're a fan boy and you don't even know anything about the product!!


I guess you are the spokesman for the world's automobile enthusiasts.

This is so incredibly childish, narrow minded and ridiculous that it doesn't even deserve a response.

(So why the hell did I dignify it with one?)

CA


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Snipe656 said:


> Are all the transmissions made by GM or just for certain models?


I am not sure of the exact breakdown by model but I do know that the Steptronic in the 328 is sourced from GM. The Steptronic in the 335i is sourced from ZF (a German manufacturer). The ZF is one of the best ATs available (not to imply that the GM in the 328 is bad - which it is not) and is similar to the tranmisisions (also ZF) in the Jaguar XKR, the Maserati GTS and the Bentley Continental and some Aston Martins.

CA


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

captainaudio said:


> I am not sure of the exact breakdown by model but I do know that the Steptronic in the 328 is sourced from GM. The Steptronic in the 335i is sourced from ZF (a German manufacturer). The ZF is one of the best ATs available (not to imply that the GM in the 328 is bad - which it is not) and is similar to the tranmisisions (also ZF) in the Jaguar XKR, the Maserati GTS and the Bentley Continental and some Aston Martins.
> 
> CA


I asked because I have had the worst luck with GM transmissions be them in a GM or something in another car such as the automatic in some Accords that GM and Honda collaborated on.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

captainaudio said:


> I guess you are the spokesman for the world's automobile enthusiasts.
> 
> This is so incredibly childish, narrow minded and ridiculous that it doesn't even deserve a response.
> 
> ...


Here we go again. Prove me wrong if you wish. CA, learn something about marketing. Each brand is marketed to certain people. Toyotas are not marketed to enthusiasts. Do some research and you will figure it out. The fact that you don't understand basic marketing principals relegates you to project how you feel about yourself via insulting others.

In my experience, I don't think I know anyone who owns a Toyota who is an enthusiast and I know quite a few people of varied professions and income levels. Some of them are, as I stated before, some of the nicest and smartest people I know. But they are not car enthusiasts in the least bit.


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

Snipe656 said:


> I asked because I have had the worst luck with GM transmissions be them in a GM or something in another car such as the automatic in some Accords that GM and Honda collaborated on.


I certainly don't doubt that but FYI Rolls Royce used GM Turbo-Hydramatic transmissions for years. As far as I know there are not any reliablilty issues with the GM AT in the 328.

CA


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## captainaudio (Jul 17, 2007)

thebmw said:


> Here we go again. Prove me wrong if you wish. CA, learn something about marketing. Each brand is marketed to certain people. Toyotas are not marketed to enthusiasts. Do some research and you will figure it out. The fact that you don't understand basic marketing principals relegates you to project how you feel about yourself via insulting others.
> 
> In my experience, I don't think I know anyone who owns a Toyota who is an enthusiast and I know quite a few people of varied professions and income levels. Some of them are, as I stated before, some of the nicest and smartest people I know. But they are not car enthusiasts in the least bit.


First of all I worked in advertising and marketing for several major Madison Ave. advertising firms for many years and if I want to learn more about the field than I already know you are going to be very low on my list of resources.

BMW has convinced a lot of people that the fact that they can come up with a lease payment of a few hundred dollars a month somehow gains them entry into some elite fraternity.

Second of all "Your Experience" and "the people you know" does not constitute Market Research it constitutes a very narrow sample of the general population.

And I will stand by my statement that your contention that "Toyota owners hate to drive" is absurd, elitist and infantile.

CA


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

I doubt most Rolls Royce cars are ever driven the distances that I put my cars through during ownership so nit sure that means anything to me. I have had a number of cars with ZF transmissions and most of those never had issues. 

Toyota tries to appeal to younger auto enthusiasts via the Scion at least. Used to appeal to others via the Supra and guess Celica.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

captainaudio said:


> First of all I worked in advertising and marketing for several major Madison Ave. advertising firms for many years and if I want to learn more about the field than I already know you are going to be very low on my list of resources.
> 
> BMW has convinced a lot of people that the fact that they can come up with a lease payment of a few hundred dollars a month somehow gains them entry into some *elite fraternity*.
> 
> ...


Please, keep the insults coming you non-infantile, non-elite person. Maybe I just happened to run into the few hundred Toyota owners that are not enthusiasts...yup that must be it. So "Madison Ave."...you must be in some "elite fraternity" of marketers and advertisers. Shocking you don't know the basics of Toyota's marketing campaign.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Snipe656 said:


> Toyota tries to appeal to younger auto enthusiasts via the Scion at least. Used to appeal to others via the Supra and guess Celica.


True..interesting how the Supra and Celica are not made now. It's just watered down Camrys, Corollas, Siennas, etc.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Hey CA...this is your profile description:

Worlds Foremost Authority
Location: Upper East Side - Manhattan, NY 10021

And you are not elitist? You are the pure definition of it! Look in the mirror buddy.


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## vadim (Nov 6, 2007)

obmd1 said:


> false. And even if it weren't, put. the car. in neutral.


Care to substantiate your statement?

So far, all the evidence suggests the opposite. At least two DOCUMENTED cases showing this in action. Plus numerous accounts including the death of the folks where the driver (a cop, not a rookie) was unable to stop the Lexus where the brakes DID NOT override the accelerator.


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

vadim said:


> Care to substantiate your statement?
> 
> So far, all the evidence suggests the opposite. At least two DOCUMENTED cases showing this in action. Plus numerous accounts including the death of the folks where the driver (a cop, not a rookie) was unable to stop the Lexus where the brakes DID NOT override the accelerator.


Cops are _not_ professional drivers. They are law enforcement officers. I am so sick and tired of people saying, "...and he was a highway patrol officer!"

The guy who died was an ignorant driver (he didn't understand how to operate the vehicle). His accident was avoidable.

- Mike


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Emission said:


> Cops are _not_ professional drivers. They are law enforcement officers. I am so sick and tired of people saying, "...and he was a highway patrol officer!"
> 
> The guy who died was an ignorant driver (he didn't understand how to operate the vehicle). His accident was avoidable.
> 
> - Mike


Very unfortunate accident, but you are right Mike. The tragedy could have been avoided if he truly knew how to operate the vehicle. So sad but again, most people don't really know how to really drive and operate vehicles (and I don't mean simply accelerate, brake, and turn).


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## vadim (Nov 6, 2007)

Emission said:


> *Cops are not professional drivers*. ...- Mike


In what sense exactly? Do they look less "professional" to you than school bus or truck drivers? Do you know anything about LE training to be posting this kind of statement?

That aside, does anyone driving a Lexus/Toyota have to be a "professional" driver?


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## Emission (Dec 19, 2001)

vadim said:


> In what sense exactly? Do they look less "professional" to you than school bus or truck drivers? Do you know anything about LE training to be posting this kind of statement?
> 
> That aside, does anyone driving a Lexus/Toyota have to be a "professional" driver?


A school bus or truck driver - professional drivers in my book - knows how to shut down their equipment. They also know what to do when the air brakes fail, or when the engine goes out of control.

The cop may be the world's greatest "pit maneuver in a Crown Victoria" guy, but they don't know squat about specific vehicle operations outside the patrol car. More specifically, they aren't trained to know how to shut off a start/stop ignition vehicle, how to drive dog-leg gearbox, shift without a clutch, or how to deal with overheated brakes... yeah, basic "professional driver" crap.

I'd be more likely to trust my life in a runaway vehicle to a bus driver than a cop.

- Mike


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## obmd1 (Jan 17, 2005)

vadim said:


> Care to substantiate your statement?
> 
> .





C&D said:


> Hit the Brakes
> 
> Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D's 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry's throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet-that's a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry's throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet-noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car's speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.


http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f37/c-d-tests-toyota-brakes-full-throttle-87714/

In a panic, once might be PUMPING the brakes, hence, the fade. It only has to work once. Look, I'm not saying there isn't a problem here. Just not an automotive appocalypse.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Here is an article that describes Toyota's hubris better than I can:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/whattigerwoodsandtoyotahaveincommon


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## JetSlicer (Jul 10, 2009)

GM+US GOV (Majority Shareholder in GM)=TOYOTA CRY


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## JetSlicer (Jul 10, 2009)

Remember the Audi 5000S!!! FREEEEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;0)


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

JetSlicer said:


> GM+US GOV (Majority Shareholder in GM)=TOYOTA CRY


I don't think the investigations have anything to do with GM's bailout. The reality is the exact opposite. The govt dropped the ball and was actually "bought out" through Toyota lobbists. The recalls should have started years ago.


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## -=Hot|Ice=- (Jan 9, 2008)

captainaudio said:


> BMW is not small anymore.
> 
> All manufacturers souce from outside suppliers and many "foreign" cars are either built in the US or use AMerican made parts.
> 
> ...


Only for the current gen X3 and 328i

Which really does the car no justice. What's really sad is that the 325i had a ZF transmission and the 328 doesn't.


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## Andrew*Debbie (Jul 2, 2004)

Snipe656 said:


> Are all the transmissions made by GM or just for certain models?


For current models:

Automatic transmissions are made by GM and ZF.
Manual transmissions are made by ZF and Getrag.

As I recall the GM units used by BMW are built in France.


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## vadim (Nov 6, 2007)

-=Hot|Ice=- said:


> Only for the current gen X3 and 328i
> 
> Which really does the car no justice. What's really sad is that the 325i had a ZF transmission and the 328 doesn't.


Why is this sad? Don't you trust the BMW engineers' decisions on which transmission to use for each model?


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

vadim said:


> Why is this sad? Don't you trust the BMW engineers' decisions on which transmission to use for each model?


I don't but like I said before I have had horrible experiences with transmissions that GM had any involvement in so if someone puts any trust in those things then I immediately have distrust in them.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

I have not liked BMW auto trannies in the past regardless of make. That being said, I think vadim has a point. Panning GM trannies across the board is very biased and slightly ignorant. I bet the people who do that are the same that think all Toyotas are great and "perfect". They probably also think Toyota execs are so honest and generally looking out for everyone's well being and it has nothing to do with a profit or money. They probably also think that Toyota was not involved in any coverup and they didn't pay people off.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

For me it comes down to having had such horrible experiences with GM transmissions that I do not want any of my money in some way going to that company after what I was put through. I also do not want to risk reliving such experiences regardless of buy in costs. Sometimes you just have such a bad experience or set of experiences that you write off something completely.


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## anE934fun (May 10, 2008)

vadim said:


> Why is this sad? Don't you trust the BMW engineers' decisions on which transmission to use for each model?


Ask an owner of a BMW with the N54 engine that has had a HPFP go on holiday if they trust the BMW engineer's decisions on the HPFP.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Snipe656 said:


> For me it comes down to having had such horrible experiences with GM transmissions that I do not want any of my money in some way going to that company after what I was put through. I also do not want to risk reliving such experiences regardless of buy in costs. Sometimes you just have such a bad experience or set of experiences that you write off something completely.


Agree. Once someone has a bad experience with a person or company, they usually don't want to do business with them again. I don't blame you.

That said, I've had many bad experiences with BMW and BMWFS. I have no idea why I still do business with either (maybe I like the product and the way it drives just a little, unfortunately). I guess I do choose pleasure over reliability.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

anE934fun said:


> Ask an owner of a BMW with the N54 engine that has had a HPFP go on holiday if they trust the BMW engineer's decisions on the HPFP.


Agree with this as well. BMW and BMW engineers are not Gods. In fact, I think there is just as much, if not more, engineering talent right here in the good ole USA (some of them work for US companies, maybe even GM:yikes. Let's not act like brainwashed and ignorant Toyota owners who think their brand is perfect with perfect little engineers and perfect little CEOs.


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## HugH (Apr 26, 2006)

-=Hot|Ice=- said:


> Only for the current gen X3 and 328i
> 
> Which really does the car no justice. What's really sad is that the 325i had a ZF transmission and the 328 doesn't.


My ex '04 325i had a French built GM auto transmission. It was smoother and more responsive than the Toyota built transmission on my ex 07 Lexus GS 350. It mated with the engine better than the Lexus. Much like the auto transmission in my new 2010 Lexus ES350, smooth and responsive...never hunting or getting caught between cogs.

Auto transmission problems with GM cars are very rare as long as people service them properly.


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## Snipe656 (Oct 22, 2009)

thebmw said:


> Agree. Once someone has a bad experience with a person or company, they usually don't want to do business with them again. I don't blame you.
> 
> That said, I've had many bad experiences with BMW and BMWFS. I have no idea why I still do business with either (maybe I like the product and the way it drives just a little, unfortunately). I guess I do choose pleasure over reliability.


I went through something like over 30 transmission rebuilds or replacements in just 1-2 years with a Chevy Blazer and did it via different shops too in fear of just the factory and then independent shops just being idiots. In 280k miles on our Accord we went through $4500ish worth of transmissions and ultimately sold the car off for next to nothing because it had a near dead transmission again but nothing else really wrong with the car. But there is a gap of I4 Accords that are known for transmission issues and I think it is 1999-2002 and I later found out the transmissions in those cars were built in collaboration with GM, Honda's "fix" was to silently extend the transmission warrantees to 100k miles.

Those experiences is why I try to avoid any transmission that is somehow related to GM. Maybe I just have bad luck but at least all of the ZF transmissions I have had in cars ended up either out lasting my ownership or got at least 200k miles before needing work. I actually though prefer manual transmissions because of my experience with automatics in those GM cars. Just so few cars that meet my other criteria and come with a manual transmission option so I quite often end up with an automatic.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

Snipe656 said:


> I went through something like over 30 transmission rebuilds or replacements in just 1-2 years with a Chevy Blazer and did it via different shops too in fear of just the factory and then independent shops just being idiots. In 280k miles on our Accord we went through $4500ish worth of transmissions and ultimately sold the car off for next to nothing because it had a near dead transmission again but nothing else really wrong with the car. But there is a gap of I4 Accords that are known for transmission issues and I think it is 1999-2002 and I later found out the transmissions in those cars were built in collaboration with GM, Honda's "fix" was to silently extend the transmission warrantees to 100k miles.
> 
> Those experiences is why I try to avoid any transmission that is somehow related to GM. Maybe I just have bad luck but at least all of the ZF transmissions I have had in cars ended up either out lasting my ownership or got at least 200k miles before needing work. I actually though prefer manual transmissions because of my experience with automatics in those GM cars. Just so few cars that meet my other criteria and come with a manual transmission option so I quite often end up with an automatic.


I prefer manuals as well and would probably only get a BMW auto tranny if it was a DCT. You definitely keep your cars way longer than I do which is probably why I haven't seen any tranny failures with any make.


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## thebmw (Oct 19, 2006)

...And the hits (and lies) just keep on coming from Toyota. I'm sure their mothers are so proud of the right now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35713831/ns/business-autos

Veil of secrecy covers Toyota cars' 'black boxes'
Automaker won't release information that could help crash investigations

Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.

The AP investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent ***8212; and sometimes even contradictory ***8212; in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.

By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.
AP also found that Toyota:

* Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.
* Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.
* In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.

Toyota's "black box" information is emerging as a critical legal issue amid the recall of 8 million vehicles by the world's largest automaker. The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration said this week that 52 people have died in crashes linked to accelerator problems, triggering an avalanche of lawsuits.

When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.

The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.

There was no initial mention of brakes ***8212; a key point in the sudden acceleration problem. When AP went back to Toyota to ask specifically about brake information, Toyota responded that its EDRs do, in fact, record "data on the brake's position and the antilock brake system."

Toyota is facing the biggest recalls in its history after uncovering widespread problems with several aspects of its vehicles.
But that does not square with information obtained by attorneys in a deadly crash last year in Southlake, Texas, and in a 2004 accident in Indiana that killed an elderly woman.


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