# ROUNDEL : Is The ZHP Half Baked or Well Done?



## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Did you guys see your latest issue of Roundel (12/03)? They did a nice write up on the 330i ZHP titled, "Half Baked, or Well Done? Is the 330i Performance Package a pretender or the real deal? We spent a day at Watkins Glen to find out."

Here are a few excerpts from the article that caught my eye (I attached the complete article at the bottom)...

"A day of lapping this demanding track [The Glen] would quickly confirm the integrity of the package - or expose the 330i PP as a half-baked attempt to add a little more sport to the 330i."

"Handling response is enhanced with springs that are 6% firmer at the front and 8% firmer at the rear, front shocks that are 50% firmer in bounce and 35% firmer in rebound, and rear shocks 20% firmer and 8% softer in rebound. Anti-roll bars are enlarged half a millimeter to 23.5 mm in the front and 18.5 mm at the rear, and the bushings in the front lower suspension arms are more rigid. Ride height is lowered by 15 mm through the use of shorter auxiliary springs front and rear."

"One initial disappointment was the "short throw" shifter. It's difficult to really tell any difference between the PP's shifter throws and those in the stock unit, and it still has that BMW spoon-in-the-spaghetti rubbery action. Since BMW bothered to change the shifting hardware, they should have done it right. They could have just sourced the shifter from UUC or AC Schnitzer and had a much better upgrade."

"Real deal or boulevard poser? After spending a week in the 330i PP in all types of driving situations, from Interstate highway to the track, I was left with two strong impressions of the car. One is that it is the best 3 Series ever... ...This car's suspension is nearly as comfortable as the 330i Sport, but would easily outgun it on the track - the PP setup is what the 3 Series sport package should have been all along. BMW nailed it with this car; why they would want to produce it in limited numbers is beyond my understanding..."


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

Andy said:


> the PP setup is what the 3 Series sport package should have been all along.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

> car's suspension is nearly as comfortable as the 330i Sport, but would easily outgun it on the track


Head to head numbers please. Anything else is just cheerleading.


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## Bobby 325i (Oct 18, 2002)

I agree...Thats what our SP should offer standard:tsk:


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

I hope they used special ZHP paper for that article...


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## Bobby 325i (Oct 18, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> I hope they used special ZHP paper for that article...


I'm sure they used the ZHP ink too:thumbup:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

> "Handling response is enhanced with springs that are 6% firmer at the front and 8% firmer at the rear, front shocks that are 50% firmer in bounce and 35% firmer in rebound, and rear shocks 20% firmer and 8% softer in rebound. Anti-roll bars are enlarged half a millimeter to 23.5 mm in the front and 18.5 mm at the rear, and the bushings in the front lower suspension arms are more rigid. Ride height is lowered by 15 mm through the use of shorter auxiliary springs front and rear."


Compared to what? Stock SP I know... but pre-revision or post-revision of the Sport Suspension? According to previous discussions there IS a difference... The revised sport suspension is firmer than the old sport suspension.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

doeboy said:


> Compared to what? Stock SP I know... but pre-revision or post-revision of the Sport Suspension? According to previous discussions there IS a difference... The revised sport suspension is firmer than the old sport suspension.


I just emailed David Haueter (the author of the article) and proposed this very question. I will post his reply if/when it comes in.


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## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

ObD said:


> Head to head numbers please. Anything else is just cheerleading.


I wrote the article on the 330i PP in Roundel. I certainly agree that a head-to-head comparison with the 330i Sport would have been ideal for comparison reasons, but logistics did not allow it. Perhaps we can arrange that next year.

Nevertheless, I still stand behind my statement that the Performance Package (PP) would outgun the Sport package on the track. I own a 325i Sport and have also spent a lot of time driving the 330i Sport, including a track day at Summit Point earlier in the year. The PP simply makes the 330i a much sharper handling car, that allows you to take corners faster and with more confidence than the Sport package car.

We also drove a 330ci Sport package with the same exact wheel/tire package as the 330i PP the week immediately following the PP, and drove it on the same challenging roads (not track) that we had the PP on. The 330ci Sport felt surprisingly dull in the handling department after becoming acclimated to the Performance Package.

Before anyone asks, we did not know at the time of the writing that BMW would offer the 330ci with the Performance Package for 2004 - this was just announced last week.


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## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

Andy said:


> I just emailed David Haueter (the author of the article) and proposed this very question. I will post his reply if/when it comes in.


This information was taken directly from BMW NA information on the car. I will find out the answer from NA and get back to you on this board.


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

Seneca said:


> This information was taken directly from BMW NA information on the car. I will find out the answer from NA and get back to you on this board.


Wow, talk about a quick response. :yikes:  :thumbup:

Thanks for posting. I hope you don't mind me posting the article online. I enjoyed reading it so much that I wanted to share it with the others on the forum, especially those who aren't BMWCCA members (maybe this will entice them to join and get the mag  ).

Thanks,
Andy


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

The 330ci is less stiff than the 330i. BMW's own numbers. Take two identically optioned 330i's (with regards to moonroof/folding seats etc.) of the SAME model year and the SAME tire manufacturer, one with and one without the ZHP package, and compare them.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

Andy said:


> "Handling response is enhanced with springs that are 6% firmer at the front and 8% firmer at the rear, front shocks that are 50% firmer in bounce and 35% firmer in rebound, and rear shocks 20% firmer and 8% softer in rebound. Anti-roll bars are enlarged half a millimeter to 23.5 mm in the front and 18.5 mm at the rear, and the bushings in the front lower suspension arms are more rigid. Ride height is lowered by 15 mm through the use of shorter auxiliary springs front and rear."


You left out the last part of the final sentence in that para:

"....as compared to the non-SP 325i suspension."


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

ff said:


> You left out the last part of the final sentence in that para:
> 
> "....as compared to the non-SP 325i suspension."


ummmm, I see no mention of a 325i anywhere in the article. :dunno:


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## Ben Liaw (Nov 24, 2003)

Andy said:


> "One initial disappointment was the "short throw" shifter. It's difficult to really tell any difference between the PP's shifter throws and those in the stock unit, and it still has that BMW spoon-in-the-spaghetti rubbery action."


The ZHP's transmission assembly is virtually unchanged in execution from any manual transmission BMW. From the 2002 to the Z8, nearly all the components are similar in concept, except for obvious updates throughout the decades.

I, too, was surprised when the ZHP "short throw" seem to be comprised of a shorter factory shift knob. However, when we developed our short shifter for the new 6-speed (coincidentally on a ZHP), there are many things that BMW has NEVER done, in terms of their shifter lever (specs and geometry) and selector rod.

BMW tries to balance what they feel is the "appropriate" shifter throw and what they believe the consumer of that vehicle expects. Sometimes they get it right (as in the M Roadster/Coupe). Other times (as in the case with the E36 M3), they could have done better. Why an E36 M3 would have similar shifter throws as a 318ti is beyone me. Then again, that's probably why the E36 M3 short shift kit is a consistent selling product for us.

Anyhow, the ZHP is a tricky one. Unfortunately, you can't do the traditional things to get shorter throws in that car, as in the other models. The space around the driveshaft is so incredibly tight, it makes gains very difficult without some form of compensation. Another example of the tight spaces is that you can't even SEE the bottom of the shifter (let along touch it) with the exhaust in place. This is one of the reasons why complete exhaust removal (cat back) is required for the installation. You really don't get to appreciate what BMW has done until you've disected the shifter assembly and everything around it. 9.9 lbs. of stuff into a 10 pound bag in this case.

With some patience and testing, it is possible to get the shorter throws that the ZHP deseves. We've done it (actually, more than 6 months ago) so I'm sure once the rest of the aftermarket gets their hands on customer cars to test parts out, they'll have their versions as well.

We've got a customer with a ZHP with our SSK, custom carbon fiber Eurosport/Jim C Intake, and 3.38 differential (from a 330 automatic). NOW his ZHP feels more like what one would expect from a $4000 performance package.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

Seneca said:


> I wrote the article on the 330i PP in Roundel. I certainly agree that a head-to-head comparison with the 330i Sport would have been ideal for comparison reasons, but logistics did not allow it. Perhaps we can arrange that next year.


I'm looking forward to it. Please include instrumented performance testing. :thumbup:


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

Andy said:


> ummmm, I see no mention of a 325i anywhere in the article. :dunno:


Nope. That's the dirty little secret that BMW doesn't want you to know.

The shocks, the springs, the roll bars.... all standard 330i pieces. That's why I call it the marketing package.


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## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

PhilH said:


> I'm looking forward to it. Please include instrumented performance testing. :thumbup:


We look forward to your donation of those instruments to Roundel magazine. . . .


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## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

doeboy said:


> Compared to what? Stock SP I know... but pre-revision or post-revision of the Sport Suspension? According to previous discussions there IS a difference... The revised sport suspension is firmer than the old sport suspension.


According to BMW, the data on the 330i Performance Package suspension stiffness and changes is compared to the 330i Sport package, not the standard suspension.

They also informed me that in the 2004 model year, the 330i will have the Sport suspension (that was in the Sport package last year) as standard equipment, though it is no different in calibration from last year's Sport package.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Seneca said:


> We look forward to your donation of those instruments to Roundel magazine. . . .


 :rofl: :thumbup:


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

I've been trying to stay away from this trhead, but here's the way I look at it:

People are looking too hard at the name "Performance Package." M-B sells "sport packages" that cost 5K and they just give you AMG fenders and wheels. Where's the sport on that? So BMW throws a couple of bones with the differential and 10HP and now people are looking to justify 4K worth of performance comparing what you could get aftermarket.

Here was MY logic. And I was one of the first to order it. Before any reviews, comparos, articles, etc.

If BMW were to have offered the ZHP components a la carte, I would have checked these boxes: (prices are what I would be willing to pay for it or what it would have cost aftermarket)

- M-Tech body kit instead of snow-plow front ($1000)
- M steering wheel, alcantara or not ($350)
- Interior instead of 'ette ($1000)
- Sport package ($1200)
- Black headliner ($350)

Total: $3800

As a bonus, I got Imola Red paint, M135 18" wheels and tires, shorter diff, more power and torque, nicer shifter, different exhaust, higher top speed, higher red line, better throttle response, and red needles. 

Sure, I'll take one.

So as you can see, any "performance" I got with the ZHP, was free to me, so I could care less if it compares to an E36M3, if it has a stiffer suspension vs the rugalar sport suspension, etc. All I know is that I love my car, I have fun with it, and it kicks ass.


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## KU Ned (Apr 23, 2003)

*Great post*



mbr129 said:


> People are looking too hard at the name "Performance Package." M-B sells "sport packages" that cost 5K and they just give you AMG fenders and wheels. Where's the sport on that? So BMW throws a couple of bones with the differential and 10HP and now people are looking to justify 4K worth of performance comparing what you could get aftermarket.
> 
> Here was MY logic. And I was one of the first to order it. Before any reviews, comparos, articles, etc.
> 
> ...


GREAT POST! I to ordered the ZHP sight unseen pretty early on (May 2003 delivery). The M-Tech and clothe/alacantara alone make the package worth it to me. I love the look of the wheels and run 17's with 235's on the track and auto-x so the weight is not a big deal to me.

You are right about M-B, their "Sports" have offered nothing other than cosmetic changes.

Before the ZHP came out I was considering an e36 M3 and used M-B C32 AMG. I can tell you that when using the lighter wheels I am able to run in the top run groups at driving schools and keep up with all but the very heavily modded e36 M3's. The car does everything the e36 M3 can do plus it has the e46 interior and other items that I like. It is not as fast in a straight line as the C32 but it is faster in the corners (I have seat time in the C32 and have run with one on the track).

I love the car and don't really understand the criticism that it has taken over the past couple of months. I can think of numerous cars that offer sport packages or whatever the different manufacturers call their models that have no performance modifications at all. Like you said their is a list of things we know they added to the ZHP. I like the shorter differential and lighter flywheel. Those added to the cosmetic changes are worth it to me.


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## FireFly (May 2, 2002)

Great post MBR. 

I don't think anyone will question that the ZHP offers a great value for the $$.


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## blackhawk77 (Mar 16, 2003)

robg said:


> Its strange that they would say that because the 330 has had the sport suspension standard since sometime in 01.


-

I thought so- The 330s all get the upgraded "performance" susp which makes chosing the SP a matter of getting sport seats, upgraded wheels, clear lenses, and I'm forgetting what else--but the bottom line is that the susp is the same between 330i and 330 i w/SP.

-


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## Andy (Jul 16, 2003)

armaq said:


> I said "more show less go", if you are refering to my statement


armaq,

You're right I did miss quote you, sorry about that... I knew it was something along those lines. Please don't take my comment personally, I was just defending the 330i ZHP as a great performer on the track.

I hope you end up getting your 330i ZHP soon. Good luck. :thumbup:

Andy


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

mbr129, perfect post, and it does kick ass. 

"Its so choice, if you have the means I highly recomend picking one up."


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

andy_thomas said:


> Well, the part numbers are different.


  :eeps:


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## Artslinger (Sep 2, 2002)

My thinking.

BMW is purposely being vague about the ZHP suspension, so enthusiasts will have endless discussions on forums about what actually makes up the suspension. The only people that know what really makes up this elusive suspension are certain BMW employees.


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## kyyuan (Jul 14, 2002)

mbr129 said:


> I've been trying to stay away from this trhead, but here's the way I look at it:
> 
> People are looking too hard at the name "Performance Package." M-B sells "sport packages" that cost 5K and they just give you AMG fenders and wheels. Where's the sport on that? So BMW throws a couple of bones with the differential and 10HP and now people are looking to justify 4K worth of performance comparing what you could get aftermarket.
> 
> ...


Hey, we're on the same page (see my earlier post). :thumbup:


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

andy_thomas said:


> Well, the part numbers are different. What do you mean by "standard fare"?


They aren't different. Hack and I compared what's on my car to what comes standard on all new 330's. Same, exact part numbers.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

KU Ned said:


> I love the car and don't really understand the criticism that it has taken over the past couple of months.


If you pay attention, you will see that the criticisms are coming from the non ZHP owners while the praises are from the ZHP owners. In fact, so far I still have not heard one ZHP owner who does not "love" their car and regrets the purchase. Bar none. This extends to all the BMW forums that I know and monitoring.

The funny thing is people keep saying how it doesn't worth $3900, there is no difference between the ZHP and the 330i SP, this is such a rip off, blah blah blah...., but at the same time, keep buying it and crying and begging BMW to offer this option in the coupe. Now BMW answered their prayers, and it starts all over again debating the worthiness of the package. If this is just a pure BMW marketing strategy, I would say they are a bunch of genius.

I'm one of the earliest owners together with mbr, ff, KU Ned, etc. Now I have 12k miles, and all I can say is I've never had a moment that I'm not loving it. The ZHP is the closest BMW model resembling the E36 M3/4 in every respect. Not exactly, but pretty damn close.


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## r2saint (Feb 3, 2003)

hugh1850 said:


> mbr129, perfect post, and it does kick ass.
> 
> "Its so choice, if you have the means I highly recomend picking one up."


Agreed - (Love that quote)... I've been hesitant to chime in - most of the time this argument comes down to subjective opinion. Heres mine:
There are those more performance and/or parts-oriented then I am, they may smell a rat in terms of part numbers and so on. Thats fine, I salute them - if yesterday's meatloaf is today's chili - its interesting to know that, and I appreciate their efforts. That being said, I don't really care that much - I like the chili - they put something in it that makes me "crave it nightly, smartass!!". If you don't like it, hey: peace. As far as the "3900 - sport package = X" equation: I simply feel like I got my money's worth. Most all reviews I've read give the package pretty glowing praise. Its nice to have an affirmation - but not required.

I'll simply say this: I can't really justify the expenses, nor have the burning desire, to make any modifications to any car. Its money I feel is somewhat wasted - just my humble opinion. I felt like this was the perfect blend of sports car and sedan, missed the e36/4 and B5 S4 boats, didn't really want to buy used, like the fact that my insurance rate is based on "330i" not "M3", and further, couldn't justify spending 50k on a new M3 or S4. Oh, and the M135s are gorgeous...


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## r2saint (Feb 3, 2003)

ff said:


> They aren't different. Hack and I compared what's on my car to what comes standard on all new 330's. Same, exact part numbers.


ff - just interested: 
1. do you like or dislike your car? 
2. do you feel you got ripped off?


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Question for the tech guys re: "zhp suspension". Would it be a reasonable conclusion that if you take your standard sport package, slap on some m135's that you will have the same set up as the ZHP? What real difference is there if you are running w/18in wheels in either package (m135, m72, etc)? I wouldn't imagine that the weight difference in the wheels would make a difference in body roll etc. So why all the great reviews for the ZHP's handling? Is it because those who write are comparing the zhp to the SP w/17in wheels? WTF mate?


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

mkh said:


> If you pay attention, you will see that the criticisms are coming from the non ZHP owners while the praises are from the ZHP owners.


Actually all we are asking for is a head to head comparison of like vehicles with and without the ZHP package. Hardly a criticism. To date nothing measurable has been shown to suggest that the performance is different. You can throw out any comparison to MY 2001 vehicles since it is known BMW used different steering and suspension settings.


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> Question for the tech guys re: "zhp suspension". Would it be a reasonable conclusion that if you take your standard sport package, slap on some m135's that you will have the same set up as the ZHP? What real difference is there if you are running w/18in wheels in either package (m135, m72, etc)? I wouldn't imagine that the weight difference in the wheels would make a difference in body roll etc. So why all the great reviews for the ZHP's handling? Is it because those who write are comparing the zhp to the SP w/17in wheels? WTF mate?


THAT is the question. And the reason why people doubt that the suspensions are the same. I don't think anyone has bothered to try that out. But again... I don't care.


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Here's another one for you...is it possble to take a part tune it, adjust it, tighten one screw, loosen another, and bam you have a suspension that though its made up of the same parts (ie part #s) however performs differently than the original set up?


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## mbr129 (Aug 23, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> Here's another one for you...is it possble to take a part tune it, adjust it, tighten one screw, loosen another, and bam you have a suspension that though its made up of the same parts (ie part #s) however performs differently than the original set up?


That would be irrelevant since this is a factory option and BMW would never do any additional or special handling of an extrapart. If something is different, then the part number would be different. Unless they are adding or removing additional parts.


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Then...in my hands I hold LIES!

Per BMWNA:

"Volumes have been written by indpendent critics, praising the roadability and handling of the BMW 3 series-and the 330i sedan got even better in '01, when it was updated with a crisper, quicker steering system and a sport suspension calibration as standard equipment.

The Performance Package calibration, developed by BMW M, is even sportier. It incorporates:

Firmer springs, by approximately 6% at the front and 8% at the rear.

Firmer shock absorbers overall, specifically- Front-50% firmer jounce, 35% in rebound; Rear-20% firmer in jounce, 35% in rebound. (Fine-tuning of shock absorbers is an impirical process and can sometimes produce surprising results. Trust them, BMW M's engineers know what they're doing.)

Larger-diameter anti-roll (stabilizer) bars. 23.5 mm at the front, vs. the standard 23.0; 18.5mm at the rear, vs. 18.0.

More rigid forward bushings for the arc-shaped lower arms of the front suspension. The hydraulic cushions at the rear of these lower arms are retained.

Lower ride height, by 15 mm (0.6 in)

Shorter auxiliary springs, the polyurethane components that limit spring travel. These are 15mm (0.6 in) shorter at front and rear, corresponding to the reduction in ride height."

So there you go. Here are all the lies about the zhp's suspension as compared to the sport suspension standard on the 330i. Forgive any typos.


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## mkh (Mar 24, 2003)

Below is a DIRECT quote from BMWNA (with some irrelevant part deleted):

Woodcliff Lake, NJ - December 4, 2003 ... The widely-acclaimed 330i Performance Package, originally introduced on the 330i Sedan in January 2003, will make its debut on the 2004 330Ci Coupe and Convertible at the Los Angeles International Auto Show on December 29th, 2003....The 330i and 330Ci Performance Package has been created exclusively for the North American market for enthusiasts by enthusiasts at BMW Individual, a division of BMW M GmbH. Every aspect of the driving experience has been enhanced by the Performance Package. Engine modifications, which include different camshafts and performance-modified Digital Motor Electronics, yield a 10 horsepower increase to 235 for the 3.0-liter in-line six. A six-speed manual transmission is already standard; however, with the Performance Package it will include a shorter shift lever. The package also includes a shorter final drive ratio. The benefits of these modifications are immediately evident - the 330Ci with Performance Package will accelerate from 0 - 60 mph in 5.9 seconds-about half a second faster than a standard 330Ci. 
*To match this power boost, a new sports suspension-more aggressively tuned than the 330Ci's standard sport suspension-is mated to 18-inch wheels with mixed-size performance tires(1).* 
In addition to the wheels and tires, the exterior of the 330Ci Performance Package is distinguished by its Aerodynamic Package, high gloss Shadowline trim and an exhaust that not only appears, but also sounds more aggressive....Production of the 330Ci Coupe and Convertible Performance Package will begin in March 2004 with the first cars arriving at BMW centers in April.

1- Includes space saver spare tire.

BMW Group In America


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

nice post...so what's that number for consumer reports!


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

mkh said:


> *To match this power boost, a new sports suspension-more aggressively tuned than the 330Ci's standard sport suspension-is mated to 18-inch wheels with mixed-size performance tires(1).*


Sounds like I'll be going for some test drives when they hit the lots... :eeps:


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> nice post...so what's that number for consumer reports!


They'll probably just comment on the mileage, cupholders and how the ride is "too harsh"


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

doeboy said:


> They'll probably just comment on the mileage, cupholders and how the ride is "too harsh"


what about truth in advertising?


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> what about truth in advertising?


I'm all for it.

I was just saying that from what I've seen CR is more geared to people concerned with how soft the seats are, if the car feels like it's floating (boaty), and how much good the gas mileage is, etc as opposed to more performance oriented people like many of us.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

If all this is false advertising, why is noone taking legal actions against BMWNA ?

People are sueing McDonald's for every kind of weird stuff. Why not BMWNA ? :dunno:


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> If all this is false advertising, why is noone taking legal actions against BMWNA ?
> 
> People are sueing McDonald's for every kind of weird stuff. Why not BMWNA ? :dunno:


'cause someone hasn't figured out how to swallow and get large by eating bimmers.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

hugh1850 said:


> 'cause someone hasn't figured out how to swallow and get large by eating bimmers.


Mine was a serious question. Is false advertising legal in the USA ?


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

r2saint said:


> ff - just interested:
> 1. do you like or dislike your car?
> 2. do you feel you got ripped off?


I love my car. Absolutely. I feel that I was misled, though, in what the package really consisted of. The marketing crew did a great job fooling us on this one. If the car didn't come with these great cloth seats, I'd be making a pretty big stink at the dealership.

It's a great car, and it does handle better than the stock 330i SP. But the difference is minimal, and at the cost of much heavier wheels that slow the car's acceleration.

When I first bought it, it took me a couple of weeks to even begin to discover what made it (slightly) better.

If I could do it all over again, I'd go back to a stripper 330i SP and just upgrade some key components like the sways and bushings.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> Mine was a serious question. Is false advertising legal in the USA ?


Anything is legal here these days (as long as you're not a white male between the ages of 1 and 100).


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Wow, this thread has had quite a few views!


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

Plaz said:


> Wow, this thread has had quite a few views!


Hopefully at least one of them is from somebody at BMWNA


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

Alex Baumann said:


> Mine was a serious question. Is false advertising legal in the USA ?


I don't think so, but I don't know the extent of its coverage. I think that it doesn't cover anything that would be determined as subjective. In the current discussion over the suspension components of the zhp, in which finite numbers were given to differentiate the two set ups, I would feel that quoting numbers that are fictitious would be a violation of the act or law, if any, that is in place in the US. All they could have said was that we added big wheels and whoo hoo what a difference!


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## kyyuan (Jul 14, 2002)

ff said:


> (as long as you're not a white male between the ages of 1 and 100).


I don't understand this comment. :dunno:


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

kyyuan said:


> I don't understand this comment. :dunno:


You must not be a white male between the ages of 1 and 100?


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

hugh1850 said:


> Larger-diameter anti-roll (stabilizer) bars. 23.5 mm at the front, vs. the standard 23.0; 18.5mm at the rear, vs. 18.0.


I know ff verified that the ZHP shocks had the same part number as the 330i SP shocks, but what was the story on the anti-roll bars? Is the above statement correct?


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## kyyuan (Jul 14, 2002)

ff said:


> You must not be a white male between the ages of 1 and 100?


I was just trying to understand whether the referenced comment had an underlying ethnic issue. Does the color of one's skin matter?


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## hugh1850 (Jun 20, 2003)

PhilH said:


> I know ff verified that the ZHP shocks had the same part number as the 330i SP shocks, but what was the story on the anti-roll bars? Is the above statement correct?


Got it from this "marketing piece" that was put out by the Professional Development Team. My SA gave it to me when I first inquired about the package. The order # for the brochure is 330pp-pib; it also says that the is "For use within the BMW Organization only Date of issue March 2003. Its 11 pages with a 3 hole punch, the cover shows an imola zhp.


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## doeboy (Sep 20, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> Mine was a serious question. Is false advertising legal in the USA ?


False advertising is not legal AFAIK... but I'm not lawyer so... :dunno:

What I, for one, believe is happening here is typical marketing spin in advertising. Vagueness. Better than what... no specifics. They can't call it false advertising, because it probably is better than something. That's what they're not exactly telling us.

They say "more aggressively tuned"... ok... compared to?
They said "compared to standard Sports Package 330i".... is that pre or post sport package revision?

That's what I feel they're being really vague about and as a result ending up making the product look like so much more than it actually is. But then if it didn't, that wouldn't be good marketing would it?

I have no doubt the ZHP is still a great car like the 330i without ZHP is also a great car. If a ZHP coupe was available at the time I got mine, I probably would have seriously considered getting that.

I just like to know specifics. Ok, it's better... to exactly what are you saying it is better than? They won't say 100%.

Jusy my two cents here...


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> If all this is false advertising, why is noone taking legal actions against BMWNA ?


It's not false since it never really says what the comparison is to. An equivalent statement is that today the sky is 10% more blue. Really it means nothing. My suspension is specially tuned by ME .....

with tire air pressure.


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## SergioK (Aug 14, 2002)

Topaz330xi said:


> What I was talking about was the information contained in the thread link where Hack let everyone know that the suspension parts were the same as the standard 330i North American suspension. I think BMWNA marketing literature led everyone to believe that the suspension was upgraded and the components were different. That's the issue in my mind.


Somewhere on this board is a scanned image of the internal marketing PR stuff that BMW NA drafted up. In there it states, something to the effect that the suspension is M ´tuned´ or something like that. It stated that it was indeed tuned with -0.5 degrees of camber. I think it was people reading too much into it instead of actually reading what it actually was.


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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

sergiok said:


> Somewhere on this board is a scanned image of the internal marketing PR stuff that BMW NA drafted up. In there it states, something to the effect that the suspension is M ´tuned´ or something like that. It stated that it was indeed tuned with -0.5 degrees of camber. I think it was people reading too much into it instead of actually reading what it actually was.


I think that you're right that we need to look back at the original marketing brochures and pamphlets that came out when the ZHP was introduced. I got a couple in the mail back then but have long since thrown them away. It doesn't help that the car mags (including Roundel) have been talking about lowered ride height, stiffer springs, thicker sway bars, and different shocks.


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

directly fom the 2003 ZHP brochure:



> Thanks to modifications by driving enthusiast engineers at BMW, the 330i Performance Package brings track-inspired excitement to your daily drive. The suspension is even lower, stiffer and firmer than in the *standard* 330i. For greater adhesion, wheel camber is set at -0.5°, which results in a larger tire contact patch when cornering quickly.


I tried to attach the brochure PDF file but it exceeded the upload size limitation (1.33Mb)


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## wrwicky (Jan 17, 2003)

Topaz330xi said:


> I think that you're right that we need to look back at the original marketing brochures and pamphlets that came out when the ZHP was introduced. I got a couple in the mail back then but have long since thrown them away. It doesn't help that the car mags (including Roundel) have been talking about lowered ride height, stiffer springs, thicker sway bars, and different shocks.


I have all of the original marketing stuff, but no scanner so I won't be able to post them. It does lead one to believe that the parts are different than the SP but is very careful to be non-specific about which suspension the ZHP is stiffer/lower than. Back when we first started having this discussion, I made a similar point.

As far as false advertising, BMW NA Never said our stuff was more aggressive than an 330 SP (A fair number of journos did because the BMW releases were clearly trying to give that impression). As far as the claims of more responsive etc., well, it is. Not a bunch, but the ZHP is a little faster, turns in a little better, etc. so I don't think litigation is the answer.

Big props to Hack and Co. for letting us all have good information to make our decisions with. The ZHP is GREAT, I love mine, but it would have been a close call if I knew then what I know now. Probably would have still bought my car just the way it is because it keeps me from buying mods, I just would have had to agonize a little longer.

Mr. Paddle Shift, if you're out there, thanks again for doing that early ETK work. It seemed you were upset with the responses of some of the ZHP owners, I'm sorry a lot of folks took some of that early info personally. Hopefully time has healed some of those wounds and you will enlighten all of us further as the quest for knowledge continues on the fest. If my comments were among those , please accept my apology.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> directly fom the 2003 ZHP brochure:
> 
> I tried to attach the brochure PDF file but it exceeded the upload size limitation (1.33Mb)


 But the standard 330i suspension is the same as the (non-ZHP) 330i sport package suspension. So taht explicitly states that the ZHP is "lower, stiffer, and firmer" than a sport package 330i.

But using all of the same parts.

Damn, those engineers at BMW truly are amazing.


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## Seneca (Feb 13, 2003)

I just looked at the review of the 330i Performance Package in Bimmer magazine (Nov. 2003) that might help to clear something up, or maybe make it more confusing. They quote:

"The core of the Performance Package is the existing M sport package (unavailable in the U.S., but optional on any 330 model in most other markets) that consists of the M Sport suspension II. . . . "

Both writers that contributed to the article praised the car for its exceptional handling.

There's also a great story on page 88 of that issue.


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## PhilH (Jun 7, 2002)

That quote from Bimmer makes it more confusing.

If the parts numbrers for the springs, shocks and anti-sway bars are the same, and only the lower control arm part numbers are different, then the suspensions of all U.S. 330s are nearly identical, regardless of whether or not they have the Performance Package.

As you are well aware, even the authors of magazine articles don't always know the facts.


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## brave1heart (Jan 7, 2002)

If it's any reference point, I was hitting 115 mph on the back straight at Watkins Glen with my 325i SP on street tires. 8 mph less than the ZHP is not too shabby for a car that's 10 grand less.


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## Ashe too (Dec 22, 2001)

The information from Hack and others about parts numbers concerns me because it seems to fly directly in the face of published representations by BMW NA and numerous automotive publications who probably get their information from the press kit, which is somewhat explicit about the differences b/t the base 330i and the ZHP package:

Press kit info states:

- 23.5mm front bar (versus 23 for the SP) 
- 18.5mm rear bar (versus 18 for SP) 
- solid forward control arm bushings (versus flex for the SP). 
- aux front springs are 15mm shorter front and rear (.6in lower ride height that the SP)
- front springs are 6% firmer (vs SP). 
- front struts are 50% firmer in jounce, 35% in rebound (vs SP).
- rear springs 8% firmer (vs SP) 
- rear struts are 20% firmer in jounce, 8% softer in rebound (vs SP).

[courtesy of *Scott ZHP*]

But I don't think we'll reach a definitive understanding of what the package consists of until we've heard from BMW NA. We need to hear an explanation for what *appears* to be a discrepancy b/t what is claimed in their published materials and what is actually installed on the car. Perhaps some inquiries with BMW NA Customer Relations, escalated to a level of some actual knowledge as opposed to canned PR-speak.


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## swchang (Oct 5, 2003)

brave1heart said:


> If it's any reference point, I was hitting 115 mph on the back straight at Watkins Glen with my 325i SP on street tires. 8 mph less than the ZHP is not too shabby for a car that's 10 grand less.


I thought the ZHP package bumped max speed to 155 mph?


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

> - 23.5mm front bar (versus 23 for the SP)


EPC says that up to 04/01 Sport was 24mm, standard up to 04/01 and between 04/01 - 09/01 a Poor Road option used a 23mm, otherwise after 04/01 they are all 23.5mm



> - 18.5mm rear bar (versus 18 for SP)


EPC says Sport was 19mm up to 04/01, standard and all dates after that are listed as 18mm



> - solid forward control arm bushings (versus flex for the SP).


EPC shows from 02/01 onward the same part number for all 330's



> - aux front springs are 15mm shorter front and rear (.6in lower ride height that the SP)
> - front springs are 6% firmer (vs SP).
> - rear springs 8% firmer (vs SP).


EPC requires VIN's to determine spring part numbers, can't access wiithout and I don't have



> - front struts are 50% firmer in jounce, 35% in rebound (vs SP).
> - rear struts are 20% firmer in jounce, 8% softer in rebound (vs SP).


EPC shows different part numbers for Std and Sport, but there is no mention of Perf. Pkg in the strut/shock area, this EPC is the most current and covers ZHP production months, it is possible they aren't listed yet or they are the same as Sport, cannot confirm or deny

The only parts I confirmed are different in the EPC are:

Intake and Exhaust Camshafts
DME
Rear Muffler
Rear Diff Gear
Front Control Arms (same as M Tech, probably where the 0.5 deg camber comes from)

but I did not search every single item parts page, just the items mentioned by BMW

it would help for someone to PM me the last 7 digits of a ZHP VIN, there is the outside possibility some parts may not show up in the listing unless the specific ZHP VIN is used

kind of interesting that the Sport Pkg up until 04/01 had the largest swaybars, if anyone has a pre-04/01 330 with Sport I'd like the last 7 digits in the VIN for that too, it would be interesting to see if the early Sport Package was really the most performance oriented


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## BradS (Aug 27, 2003)

swchang,

Yes, the top speed is no longer limited to 128 mph actual. I have seen 155 mph indicated (in the neighborhood of 149-ish mph actual) on a flat section of road on mine. C/D said it would hit 152 drag limited. I haven't been able to get to a long and straight enough section of the autobahn to confirm that, but 155 indicated I can confirm. (Have a pic at 145 indicated, but I was a little busy at 155!)

So, among the confirmed changes for the ZHP is the removal of the 128 mph governor in the software.


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## Ashe too (Dec 22, 2001)

It would be great to have a comprehensive, consolidated list of ZHP features, but the reason I didn't include things like cams, engine management software, body and interior pieces in my list above is because we seem to have a discrepancy on the suspension bits but not on the other pieces.


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## KU Ned (Apr 23, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> it would help for someone to PM me the last 7 digits of a ZHP VIN, there is the outside possibility some parts may not show up in the listing unless the specific ZHP VIN is used


Check your PM and let me know the results.


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

wrwicky said:


> I'll take a stab at this,
> 
> The car is faster because Ten more HP, 8 more lb-fts, shorter rear diff. It has been tested in the real world to be domnstrably faster by reliable sources.


Not according to this article . . .
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0311_first_bmw/index.html

They got a quicker time with the 330i sport then the ZHP

I've driven the ZHP back to back with my 03 330i and my car felt quicker on it's feet sorta speak. I bet a lot of that feeling has to do with the heavy 18" 135's though I think they are beautifiul looking wheels

I think a lot of the better handling on the ZHP comes from the better tires they are giving. Most 330i sport packaged cars come with crappy Contisport tires compared to the ZHP which comes with Pilot's or Bridgestone RE040.

My 01 330Ci had Pilots and they gripped a lot better then the Contisports. Most of you have know how many different tires/wheels I have had on my car and I can tell you my car handles A LOT better when I had SO3's, Yoko ES100's and my current Goodyear F1's !!

With that said, I would still go for the ZHP package if it were available when I purchased my car since I like the appearance enhancements, I love the sound of the exhaust and overall feel of the car plus I think the 6 speed is a better feeling transmission compared to my 5 speed.


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## ObD (Dec 29, 2001)

AF330i said:


> I think the 6 speed is a better feeling transmission compared to my 5 speed.


6 speed is now standard on all 330's.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

ObD said:


> 6 speed is now standard on all 330's.


I wonder what that retrofit would cost.


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## SpaceMonkey (Mar 13, 2002)

Plaz said:


> I wonder what that retrofit would cost.


Really? I don't see the purpose unless you also change your diff. As it is, I rarely use 5th gear. :dunno:


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## rumratt (Feb 22, 2003)

SpaceMonkey said:


> Really? I don't see the purpose unless you also change your diff. As it is, I rarely use 5th gear. :dunno:


  Yep.

Does anyone want to help Plaz install a new transmission, and help both he and I install new rear diff's?

I guess I should have just ordered a ZHP...


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## SpaceMonkey (Mar 13, 2002)

rumatt said:


> I guess I should have just ordered a ZHP...


Nah. That's only a 3.07. Still way too high.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

I just wondered what it would cost, I have no desire to do the retrofit. 

I'd buy a new diff first, and probably a supercharger before changing the tranny.

But I have no plans to do those things anytime soon either.


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## BlackChrome (Nov 16, 2003)

TeamZ4 said:


> kind of interesting that the Sport Pkg up until 04/01 had the largest swaybars, if anyone has a pre-04/01 330 with Sport I'd like the last 7 digits in the VIN for that too, it would be interesting to see if the early Sport Package was really the most performance oriented


04/01 = April 2001, right? My 2001 330Ci (which has standard sport suspension) was built in October 2000 so if you like, I can send you my last 7 VIN digits.


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

Plaz said:


> I wonder what that retrofit would cost.


I'll sell you my 6th gear. I don't use it anyway (even with the shorter gearing in back).


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## AF (Dec 21, 2001)

ff said:


> I'll sell you my 6th gear. I don't use it anyway (even with the shorter gearing in back).


I don't think it's the 6th gear he wants as much so as the transmission which snicks away shifts and offers a better feel then the 5 speed


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## ff (Dec 19, 2001)

AF330i said:


> I don't think it's the 6th gear he wants as much so as the transmission which snicks away shifts and offers a better feel then the 5 speed


I totally agree. The new 6 speed feels much nicer, and for a much longer time. By this point in my last 330, the shifter felt pretty loose/slopy. I'm at 14K miles on this one, and it still feels great.


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## Cliff (Apr 19, 2002)

AF330i said:


> I don't think it's the 6th gear he wants as much so as the transmission which snicks away shifts and offers a better feel then the 5 speed


The UUC SSK solved that for me. Of course, Plaz already has one of those installed :dunno:


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Sheesh!



Plaz said:


> I just wondered what it would cost, I have no desire to do the retrofit.
> 
> I'd buy a new diff first, and probably a supercharger before changing the tranny.
> 
> But I have no plans to do those things anytime soon either.


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## Plaz (Dec 19, 2001)

Cliff3 said:


> The UUC SSK solved that for me. Of course, Plaz already has one of those installed :dunno:


Yup, and I am still more than satisfied with it. :thumbup:


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## TeamM3 (Dec 24, 2002)

BlackChrome said:


> 04/01 = April 2001, right? My 2001 330Ci (which has standard sport suspension) was built in October 2000 so if you like, I can send you my last 7 VIN digits.


yes, I also need the VIN for a more recent Sport suspended 330i if someone can PM me that too

this will allow me to compare the Sport spring part numbers to the ZHP spring part numbers that I already have

TZ4


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