# New models and car size



## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I am comparing the sizes of the previous and current 3 Series. 

Here are the dimensions I found (Euro models)

E21 - 2 Door (L/W/H) 4355mm / 1610mm / 1380mm
E30 - 2 Door 4325mm / 1645mm / 1380mm
E36 - 2 Door 4433mm / 1710mm / 1366mm
E46 - 2 Door 4490mm / 1755mm / 1410mm

As we can see from the table that the E46 is about 15cm longer, 14cm wider and 3cm higher than the E21.

So, what do you guyz think ? Was the E21 an uncomfortable car ? Was it too small ? 

How big will be the next 3 series or the one after that ? 5 meter long, 2 meter wide, 1.5 meter high and 2 tons heavy ?


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

For comparison sake, do you also have access to 5-series dimensions? Also, weights for all of the above?


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

I have them. Let me make a list. May take 10 mins or so.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

I think that the next 3 will be similar in size to the E46, but lighter....


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Weights for US Models :

E21 - 323 - 2447 lbs
E30 - 325 - 2810 lbs
E36 - 325 - 3075 lbs
E46 - 325 - 3197 lbs


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *For comparison sake, do you also have access to 5-series dimensions? Also, weights for all of the above? *


Based on the dimensions above, I guess the E46 is not THAT much bigger than an E36 after all, huh? :lmao:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

OK. 5 Series' Dimensions (Euro Models)

E12 525i (L/W/H) 4620mm / 1700mm / 1415mm
E34 525i 4720mm / 1751mm / 1412mm 
E34 (Facelift) 4720mm / 1751mm / 1412mm 
E39 523i 4775mm / 1800mm / 1435mm


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## in_d_haus (Jan 2, 2002)

I think the E46 is much more comfortable than the E36 and especially the E30. My elbow rubs on the doorpanel in an E30...


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> *OK. 5 Series' Dimensions (Euro Models)
> 
> E12 525i (L/W/H) 4620mm / 1700mm / 1415mm
> E34 525i 4720mm / 1751mm / 1412mm
> ...


Where's the E28?


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> Based on the dimensions above, I guess the E46 is not THAT much bigger than an E36 after all, huh? :lmao: *


Those E46 numbers are for EARLY E46s.

I just looked up the weights at Edmunds.com

Here-
2000 328i - 3197 lbs
2001 330i - 3318 lbs


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

With the 1-series releasing, my worry is that the next 3 will indeed grow quite a bit.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

in_d_haus said:


> *I think the E46 is much more comfortable than the E36 and especially the E30. My elbow rubs on the doorpanel in an E30... *


I have the interior dimensions of E36 and E46 (both Limousine)

E 36
Front : 1358mm / Rear : 1353mm

E46
Front : 1384mm / Rear : 1338mm


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> *OK. 5 Series' Dimensions (Euro Models)
> 
> E12 525i (L/W/H) 4620mm / 1700mm / 1415mm
> E34 525i 4720mm / 1751mm / 1412mm
> ...


I can almost see a pattern here...

L - ~5 cm
W - ~5 cm
H - here's the exception. While the E46 is 4.4 cm "taller" than the E36, while the E39 is only 2.3 cm "taller" than the E34...


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> Based on the dimensions above, I guess the E46 is not THAT much bigger than an E36 after all, huh? :lmao: *


Smallest weight gain of any 3er generation + lower unsprung weight :lmao:


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Where's the E28? *


Ooops ! sorry, my bad

E12 525 4620mm / 1690mm / 1425mm
E28 525 4620mm / 1700mm / 1415mm


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> Smallest weight gain of any 3er generation + lower unsprung weight :lmao: *


Again, LOOK at the 2001+ 330's numbers I posted above.

The 2001 330i is ~250 lbs more than my E36 M3 sedan and 4.4 inches taller (remember the center of gravity argument).

Well this sure explains the difference in feel.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> *
> 
> Ooops ! sorry, my bad
> 
> ...


So, while the E46 does not line up with any past model EXACTLY interms of ALL dimensions, the E46 is more or less sized midway between the E28 and E34 5-series cars.

Just as I suspected.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Those E46 numbers are for EARLY E46s.
> 
> ...


I was referring to L/W/H...

Anyway, let's look at the weight difference... Compute bigger brakes, engine, etc, and the weight difference is justified... Even though the 330i is 121 pounds heavier, lb:HP ratio is better on the 330 = I couldn't care less about those extra 121 pounds...


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

I want to know what options and what conditions (fuel in car, etc.) all these things are measured with. There has to be some sort of standard for doing this.

Someone posted that their iT weighed south of 3300lbs with the spare removed. His car was a lot like mine with very few options. Things like power seats (those weigh a LOT), fullsize spare (47.5lbs for mine) and stuff has to add up.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Kaz said:


> *I want to know what options and what conditions (fuel in car, etc.) all these things are measured with. There has to be some sort of standard for doing this.
> 
> Someone posted that their iT weighed south of 3300lbs with the spare removed. His car was a lot like mine with very few options. Things like power seats (those weigh a LOT), fullsize spare (47.5lbs for mine) and stuff has to add up. *


Manufacturer's data. All cars are stock, 5 speed manual.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Again, LOOK at the 2001+ 330's numbers I posted above.
> 
> ...


Correction 1: the numbers above compare coupes.

Correction 2: The E46 is 4.4 *CM* taller than the E36, not 4.4 INCHES.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> Correction 1: the numbers above compare coupes.
> *


Ah.. Back to Edmunds...

328Ci - 3197 lbs
330Ci - 3351 lbs

EVEN WORSE!! (And I'm not making these numbers up. Look for yourself.)


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> So, while the E46 does not line up with any past model EXACTLY interms of ALL dimensions, the E46 is more or less sized midway between the E28 and E34 5-series cars.
> 
> Just as I suspected. *


E28 525 4620mm / 1700mm / 1415mm
E34 525i 4720mm / 1751mm / 1412mm
E46 - 2 Door 4490mm / 1755mm / 1410mm

I don't understand this New Math. :dunno:


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> I was referring to L/W/H...
> 
> Anyway, let's look at the weight difference... Compute bigger brakes, engine, etc, and the weight difference is justified... Even though the 330i is 121 pounds heavier, lb:HP ratio is better on the 330 = I couldn't care less about those extra 121 pounds... *


And I'm not comparing 2000s to 2001s, even though those are the stats I gave. You guys tried to say the E36 to E46 change did NOT produce a huge weight gain so I had to point out that the weight went up again with the 2001s.

But the difference between the E36 and the 2001+ E46 is OVER 250 lbs. Regardless of HP or brake size, that's a lot more weight to have to control in the twisties.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Again, LOOK at the 2001+ 330's numbers I posted above.
> 
> The 2001 330i is ~200 lbs more than my E36 M3 sedan and 4.4 inches taller (remember the center of gravity argument). *


I think that we should compare cars with simlar engine sizes, like the ones that alex posted.

4.4 INCHES taller, ha! According to Alex's data it is 44 MILLIMETERS taller, which is about 1.75in. Huge difference. I'm searching for Center of Gravity data. I have found some references that the E46 M3's is lower than the E36s


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Cool, my car only weighs 3153. Not too bad! :thumb:


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> I think that we should compare cars with simlar engine sizes, like the ones that alex posted.
> 
> 4.4 INCHES taller, ha! According to Alex's data it is 44 MILLIMETERS taller, which is about 1.75in. Huge difference. I'm searching for Center of Gravity data. I have found some references that the E46 M3's is lower than the E36s  *


I TYPO'D on INCHES. Dwelling on that isn't getting us anywhere.

Talk to me about 250 lbs.


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Ouch!

323i - 3153
328i - 3197
323Ci - 3153
328Ci - 3197

325i - 3241
330i - 3318
325Ci - 3252
330Ci - 3351

All courtesy of Edmunds. Didn't bother checking cabriolets.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *Talk to me about 250 lbs. *


I liked the difference between E21 and E46 : 750lbs :yikes:


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

Mystikal said:


> *Ouch!
> 
> 323i - 3153
> 328i - 3197
> ...


Thanks for the help.

Anyone care to defend this type of weight gain?


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> *
> 
> I liked the difference between E21 and E46 : 750lbs :yikes: *


That's 4 adult males stuffed in the trunk.


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> I TYPO'D on INCHES. Dwelling on that isn't getting us anywhere.
> 
> Talk to me about 250 lbs. *


"hassis

The E46 chassis uses high-strength steels in more than 50% of the body shell by weight, compared to just 4.5% for the E36, which allowed BMW engineers to greatly increase structural rigidity without increasing weight. The new body's natural frequencies are 29 Hertz in torsion, 26 Hertz in bending--the same as the current 5 Series. Torsion is almost doubled compared to the E36, itself a damn solid car. And ff you remove the plastic cover under the engine (there to aid aerodynamics), you'll notice that BMW's famous tri- angular cross brace--which the factory previously used only on the E36 Cabriolets--is now standard on all E46's. (No word yet on whether the part number is the same.) To guard against rust and chassis weakening, a whopping 85% of the E46 body is galvanized steel. This also ensures that a 1999 328i restoration in 2019 won't involve nearly as much welding as a 1979 320i resto in 1999; it might not involve any at all.

The 323i Sedan weighs in at 3,153 pounds. (3,219 with automatic transmission), while the 328i tips the scales at just 3,197 (3,263 auto). With manual gears, the E46 328i Sedan gains just 66 pounds over its E36 counterpart. A 528i with manual gears weighs 3A50 lbs. To put things in perspective, a 1991 five-speed E30 325i sedan weighed 2,811 pounds.

Suspension And Steering

Again borrowing from 5 Series design, BMW has refined and lightened the 3 Series suspension at all comers. In the front, forged aluminum lower control ans-reminiscent of E30 M3 Motorsport units--reduce unsprung weight, as do hollow strut rods. The control-arm bushings are replaced by hydraulic cushions, as is the trend with BMW motor mounts and differential bushings. Caster has been increased for greater high-speed stability, and the track is increased by 2.9" on the 323i and 2.6" on the 328i. In total, the E46 front suspension tips the scales at 5.5 lbs. less unsprung weight than the E36.

In the rear, the E46 carries on with the new multi-link system, but again with reduced weight and measures to improve ride comfort. The transverse link on each side is now cast aluminum for a savings of 1.1 lbs. Track is increased by 2.7" on the 323i and 2.4" on the 328i. Rear mounts have been repositioned for less distortion under acceleration and are now hydraulic for improved vibration dampening, noise control, and ride quality.

The bottom line is that the E46 suspension is 21.3% aluminum, weighing in at 602 lbs. versus 619 lbs. for the E36."


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

Furthermore:

1995-1999 M3 - 3175
2001 M3 - 3415

All 2 door's.


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## Kaz (Dec 21, 2001)

Talk to NHTSA, IIHS and DOT about safety standards.

Would I be willing to risk the lack of intrusion beams, airbags, reinforcement panels, etc. for 250 lbs? Maybe, and in some countries, that's allowed (look at the lightened versions of things like Lancer EVOs sold in Japan). That's not the case in other places, like here in the US.

If BMW hopes to continue to sell their cars in this country where people expect comfort and safety, its not going to happen without increases in weight and/or prices to implement lightweight materials.

If (crash) safety and comfort were non-issues to car buyers, we'd have a lot more Lotuses and Morgans on the road.


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## ALEX325i (Dec 19, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> Ah.. Back to Edmunds...
> 
> ...


Ok, but you're making them up when comparing 330i to M3/4:

M3/4 - 3175lb
330i - 3318lb = "only" 143lb heaiver than M3/4, not ~250lb.

I got those numbers from your source: Edmunds...


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> That's 4 adult males stuffed in the trunk. *


A hell of a lot stiffer body, more amenities, faster, safer, more powerful, etc...


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

nate328Ci said:


> *
> 
> "hassis
> 
> ...


That was from the Roundel at the time of the E46's release.

You've seen the updated 2001+ weights. And I added an X-brace to my '98 for under $120.

And I don't live in the rust belt.

Next!


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## Mystikal (Dec 20, 2001)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> Ok, but you're making them up when comparing 330i to M3/4:
> 
> ...


It's 250lbs M3 vs. M3


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2002)

ALEX325i said:


> *
> 
> Ok, but you're making them up when comparing 330i to M3/4:
> 
> ...


IMO, that's still a lot. And for WHAT?


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## nate (Dec 24, 2001)

TD said:


> *
> 
> IMO, that's still a lot. And for WHAT? *


143lbs is lot!!

I seriously doubt that you could would notice much difference if we distributed that much weight on your M3 in regular driving.

There is a lot of stuff on the 330 that the M3 doesn't have...


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