# GP Bahrain****SPOILER****



## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

The jury may still be in deliberations, but it looks to me like Heifeld is going to turn out to be a wonderful acquisition for the Williams team. He keeps impressing me, anyway. At Saturday qualifying he holds 4th position.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I don't like the new qualifying system.

It should be decided on Saturday, race on Sunday.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Patrick said:


> I don't like the new qualifying system.
> 
> It should be decided on Saturday, race on Sunday.
> 
> .


A discussion that continues. I don't understand why the FIA thinks that single lap qualifying is so much better than a multi-lap shoot out. The 1 hour qualifying system was always extremely exciting. If people were walking around to various vantage points for practice, everyone found a place to sit down and watch the qualifying hour. I feel like the new system doesn't put the cars on the track in front of the spectators enough.

Heidfeld is doing a nice job.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

SteveT said:


> A discussion that continues. I don't understand why the FIA thinks that single lap qualifying is so much better than a multi-lap shoot out. The 1 hour qualifying system was always extremely exciting. If people were walking around to various vantage points for practice, everyone found a place to sit down and watch the qualifying hour. I feel like the new system doesn't put the cars on the track in front of the spectators enough.
> 
> Heidfeld is doing a nice job.


Obviously, with the tire rule change and the engine-must-last-two-races rule, a one hour qualifying session would not work.

And the reason they dumped that one hour session qualifying idea in favor of the single lap session, was because no one would make any atttempt until there was 20 minutes left in the session, and someone else had put some rubber down on the track.

Anyway, I do not even bother to watch the qualifying sessions.

I will watch the start, and then read about who won later in the day. :bigpimp:

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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

berford said:


> The jury may still be in deliberations, but it looks to me like Heifeld is going to turn out to be a wonderful acquisition for the Williams team. He keeps impressing me, anyway. At Saturday qualifying he holds 4th position.


I agree, Heidfeld is performing well and appears to be at least the equal of Webber so far.

The Renaults though. :yikes:


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Patrick said:


> Obviously, with the tire rule change and the engine-must-last-two-races rule, a one hour qualifying session would not work.
> 
> And the reason they dumped that one hour session qualifying idea in favor of the single lap session, was because no one would make any atttempt until there was 20 minutes left in the session, and someone else had put some rubber down on the track.
> 
> ...


There was a lap limit, was it 9 laps? I don't think that would change the engine life much.

There were times in the extreme when they all sat until the last 20 minutes, but there were other times when they came out sooner.

The improvement this year is an opportunity to make a low fuel qualifying run.

The races have been interesting, though an exercise in tire management.

You're just grumpy because Michael did better.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

For some reason it was a very exciting qualifying session to me, maybe I forgot what it used to be :dunno: 
I'd love to see the old format back, 12 laps max with one change - the driver has to run at least one timed lap in the first 20 minutes of the session. After the qualifying refuel the cars, change tires and park them in parc ferme, no other changes to the cars, this will ensure no qualifying special parts are used.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Fast Nick just confirmed what I always believed that given a good car he's capable of winning. I hope he keeps it up :thumbup: 

This season has shown that I wasn't mistaken about Trulli and Ralf. Aren't you guys happy that younger Schumacher is out of Williams? I know I am  

I was hoping to see more from Fisichella, I love the guy but I'm afraid that Alonso simply is quicker.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

SteveT said:


> There was a lap limit, was it 9 laps? I don't think that would change the engine life much.
> 
> There were times in the extreme when they all sat until the last 20 minutes, but there were other times when they came out sooner.
> 
> ...


I think it was 9 + the in and out laps.

I meant to say that the top teams waited until the end to send their cars out. That was the yawner of it, and one reason why Bernie wanted to change things.

IMHO, with no tire changes possible during the race, it is likely better to make a qualifying time with a heavier fuel load.

Yes, the races have been interesting (only saw Sepang), and yes, tire management during the race has changed things.

Yes, I am grumpy because Spoonface and FIAT worked things to their benefit. 

I have not seen the sports news this evening. What happened to Rubens? :dunno:

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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Patrick said:


> Yes, I am grumpy because Spoonface and FIAT worked things to their benefit.
> 
> I have not seen the sports news this evening. What happened to Rubens? :dunno:
> 
> .


I could sense the vibes....  Sorry.

Rubens didn't run much on Friday. He didn't look very happy sitting in the pits. Apparently there was a transmission problem. They said he had only done ten laps in the car prior to qualifying. Fiat  may still have a reliability problem.


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## F1Crazy (Dec 11, 2002)

Patrick, it used to be 12 laps total, that meant only 4 hot laps.


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## beewang (Dec 18, 2001)

I have to vent...

I CAN'T stand another press conference w/ Jarno. That guy is a freaking idiot and by far the worst F1 driver when he opens his mouth.  That guy just can't talk... PERIOD

As much as dis-like Schumy, I do have to say he represents the F1 well and is the pinnacle of the F1 driver image.


Please don't tell me I am the odd man out feeling this way :eeps: 

beewang :bigpimp:


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## racerdave (Sep 15, 2003)

05 qualifying rules suck. Period.

And as much as I hate to say it, I think the IRL has it right for road-course qualifying this year: "At the conclusion of single-lap qualifying, there will a 10-minute break for adjustments, then the “Firestone Fast Six Qualifying” featuring the fastest six cars will participate in a 10-minute session designed to give each car the opportunity to better its qualifying time. Cars will be spaced in 10- to 15-second gaps on the 1.8-mile temporary street circuit."

So the top 6 from single-car qualifying go head-to-head in a 10-minute shoot out to determine the first six spots. So you get the best of single-car (which I like to watch), and the frenetic 10 minutes of old, but with only the fast guys. :thumbup:

Also, a big :thumbup: to Heidfeld and Trulli. Maybe it's just these last to Tilke circuits, but if this holds true for the rest of the year, it would appear that the tidy, smooth drivers really shine. Heidfeld is like glass (from outside the car, at least), as he picked up some big time in the last two corners by being spot-on in terms of line. Same with Trulli. 

Contrast that with Kimi, Villeneuve, Ralf....


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I wonder what happened to Rubens' car.

RAI is not showing the race in Italy - at least not live, and possibly not at all. I was wondering if Ferrari would race at all after the Pope died.

Ralf's 2nd qualifying lap was excellent. Villeneuve's was terrible!

Spoonface is up now ..


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Alonso! :thumbup: 

And the look on Spoonface's face after Alonso took the pole was also excellent! :rofl: 


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Is anyone watching? :dunno: 


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

There goes Spoonface's 58 race streak without a mechanical failure.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

I wonder if Sato's brakes will last 57 laps - the amount of carbon fiber dust coming from his front brakes is insane!

And there goes Heidfeld's engine ...


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Wow! :yikes: 

Quite a race. A bit boring at the front (and they really didn't show that much of Alonso after Spoonface retired), but the racing from P4 down to P10 was fantastic.

IMHO, man of the race has to be Pedro de la Rosa. He drove his ass off! :thumbup: 

:thumbdwn: to BAR Honda. Since Honda "bought" a majority of the team and sacked David Richards, they have been miserable. Looks like nothing can now keep Button from Williams next year.

I was LMAO watching Masa pass Barrichello! I thought that would be against Sauber's contract with FIAT!


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## Lanc3r (Sep 5, 2004)

The wierdest podium ceremonies, EVER!


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Yes, I have watched the race. It's great to see that the F2005 is as fast as (if not faster) than the Renaults. Now they have to deal with the gearbox problems, which have proved itself to be a PITA during the whole weekend (see Barrichelo)

Anyway, even they had very short time for testing, Michael did quite a good job at this weekend. The signs are good. The car is very fast, it's almost 1.5-2 secs faster than the F2004M.

European races will be fun.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> Yes, I have watched the race. It's great to see that the F2005 is as fast as (if not faster) than the Renaults. Now they have to deal with the gearbox problems, which have proved itself to be a PITA during the whole weekend (see Barrichelo)
> 
> Anyway, even they had very short time for testing, Michael did quite a good job at this weekend. The signs are good. The car is very fast, it's almost 1.5-2 secs faster than the F2004M.
> 
> European races will be fun.


 :hi:

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## WILLIA///M (Apr 15, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> It's great to see that the F2005 is as fast as (if not faster) than the Renaults.


What's a half a second a lap here or there. :stickpoke


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> It's great to see that the F2005 is as fast as (if not faster) than the Renaults.


Really? Based on what? How light on fuel do you suppose Michael was? The feeling from the Speed guys was that Michael was quite light and needed to get past Alonso. They appear to have a transmission problem, but the engine sounded very rough going into the garage too.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

SteveT said:


> Really? Based on what? How light on fuel do you suppose Michael was? The feeling from the Speed guys was that Michael was quite light and needed to get past Alonso. They appear to have a transmission problem, but the engine sounded very rough going into the garage too.


And how light was Alonso's car ? Do we know that ? If they were both on 2-stop strategy, then we can assume that they were equal heavy (or light), but we don't have the chance to prove this at this point, since Michael was out on lap 13.


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## Patrick (Dec 23, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> And how light was Alonso's car ? Do we know that ? If they were both on 2-stop strategy, then we can assume that they were equal heavy (or light), but we don't have the chance to prove this at this point, since Michael was out on lap 13.


 :tsk:

Lets see. Alonso was faster and got pole. Spoonface did not pass Alonso, and never lead. Alonso won the race, Spoonface did not. Moreover, he did not get fastest lap or any points.

We don't know how the fuel load from qualifying effected the race speed, and it does not matter. M Schumacher is a DNF for this race.

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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Let's just say there were a number of cars that were faster than the F2005, not just Alonso. Did they get into the 1:29's with the F2005? I'll agree that the F2005 is a step up, but they are a ways behind right now and most of it might be tires. Alonso was very right, in testing they are faster than anyone over long runs and have been throughout the winter testing.

Sure we don't know when Michael would have pitted, because he didn't make it to the first stop. Barrichello was not a factor all weekend because of mechanical problems. All very unlike their normal reliability. They will need the next three weeks to test like mad...but that's another story.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

Patrick said:


> :tsk:
> 
> Lets see. Alonso was faster and got pole. Spoonface did not pass Alonso, and never lead. Alonso won the race, Spoonface did not. Moreover, he did not get fastest lap or any points.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what I said, Patrick, why the head shake ? He did not finish, so all is hypothetical at the moment.

However until Schumacher's retirement, both Alonso and he were equally fast - faster than all the rest of the field -, where Alonso was trying to keep Michael on hold, because he knew that he shouldn't let Michael pass under any circumstance. Now you are going to dispute this, but watch the race again (if you have the possibility).

I'm trying to make an analysis, so the fuel load does matter to me. Knowing that would give me a better idea how really fast the new F2005 was (is). The tire problem is another story, albeit a very important one. The long-run performance of Bridgestone is still crap, we saw that on Barrichelo's car.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

SteveT said:


> Let's just say there were a number of cars that were faster than the F2005, not just Alonso. Did they get into the 1:29's with the F2005? I'll agree that the F2005 is a step up, but they are a ways behind right now and most of it might be tires. Alonso was very right, in testing they are faster than anyone over long runs and have been throughout the winter testing.
> 
> Sure we don't know when Michael would have pitted, because he didn't make it to the first stop. Barrichello was not a factor all weekend because of mechanical problems. All very unlike their normal reliability. They will need the next three weeks to test like mad...but that's another story.


Steve, when were those cars faster than the F2005 ? In his last lap, Michael ran the fastest-lap.


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> Steve, when were those cars faster than the F2005 ? In his last lap, Michael ran the fastest-lap.


Alex, Michael didn't have the fastest lap of the race. There were quite a few faster. Here's the link to Formula1.com's fastest laps. I was actually referring to practice times and qualifying times though.


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

SteveT said:


> Alex, Michael didn't have the fastest lap of the race. There were quite a few faster. Here's the link to Formula1.com's fastest laps. I was actually referring to practice times and qualifying times though.


On lap 7, Michael did the fastest lap, it's in the link you posted. And there are 6 cars above Michael, the closest one ran it on lap 36.

Thanks for the link, it's another positive indication that the F2005 is quite fast  except for the tires though


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## Alex Baumann (Dec 19, 2001)

BTW, they should ditch Montoya and keep De la Rosa. :thumbup:


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

Alex Baumann said:


> On lap 7, Michael did the fastest lap, it's in the link you posted. And there are 6 cars above Michael, the closest one ran it on lap 36.
> 
> Thanks for the link, it's another positive indication that the F2005 is quite fast  except for the tires though


It's still not the fastest lap of the race. He also might have had the lightest fuel load on lap 7, for all we know. For you, this glass is half full. If you know what I mean. I understand, Ferrari doesn't build bad cars. At least not too often.

It does look like Alonso was quite light, but their strategy was good...as well as the car.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

How 'bout we talk about Heidfeld and Webber?
What happened to Heidfeld's engine?
Also Webber's engine didn't look too healthy either towards the end  
I hope they work out their kinks too...


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

jcatral14 said:


> How 'bout we talk about Heidfeld and Webber?
> What happened to Heidfeld's engine?
> Also Webber's engine didn't look too healthy either towards the end
> I hope they work out their kinks too...


Heidfeld was on the second race for his engine. They have admitted to being at the thermal limits of the engine for the ambient conditions. In other words, they didn't have enough cooling for the conditions. Webber says he flat spotted his tires badly when he spun and that compromised his speed at the end. Maybe if Alex is still on he can comment on anything interesting that was said in German.


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## Elwood (Dec 20, 2002)

Alex Baumann said:


> BTW, they should ditch Montoya and keep De la Rosa. :thumbup:


 :stupid:

Tire management sucks the big one. Nobody's fighting near the end.

The race winner still wasn't worth televising.


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## jcatral14 (Aug 4, 2003)

SteveT said:


> Heidfeld was on the second race for his engine. They have admitted to being at the thermal limits of the engine for the ambient conditions. In other words, they didn't have enough cooling for the conditions. Webber says he flat spotted his tires badly when he spun and that compromised his speed at the end. Maybe if Alex is still on he can comment on anything interesting that was said in German.


Webber went 2 successive races in his car (Aust and Malaysia) but he didn't have engine failure in the hot, humid heat in Malaysia. Of course he didn't finish because of Fisichella  I realize Heidfelds engine is in it's second race. Maybe it's because of two races held in really hot environments?
Back to Webber, what's the deal with the puffs of smoke there towards the end when De La Rosa was on his ass? Hmmm


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## SteveT (Dec 22, 2001)

jcatral14 said:


> Webber went 2 successive races in his car (Aust and Malaysia) but he didn't have engine failure in the hot, humid heat in Malaysia. Of course he didn't finish because of Fisichella  I realize Heidfelds engine is in it's second race. Maybe it's because of two races held in really hot environments?
> Back to Webber, what's the deal with the puffs of smoke there towards the end when De La Rosa was on his ass? Hmmm


I think it was actually even hotter in Bahrain than Sepang. If you read what Sam Michael and Mario Theissen have to say, they imply that they didn't have enough airflow through the engine cooling. In dealing with this they are saying that they had to limit engine rpm and thus performance. I'm sure it is the two races and the extreme heat as well.

I don't know what you mean by the puffs of smoke. When Webber was dealing with de la Rosa he was driving very defensively and going off line kicking up sand and dust. I don't that this is what you saw, but it might have been. I'll have to look again myself.

I think they made an improvement in the FW27 for Bahrain. Webber was fastest in the last Practice and I think set a lap record that no one else reached. So, I'd say they are making good progress. That doesn't mean much when they don't finish though or when they can't use the full engine power available.


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## Elwood (Dec 20, 2002)

SteveT said:


> I think it was actually even hotter in Bahrain than Sepang. If you read what Sam Michael and Mario Theissen have to say, they imply that they didn't have enough airflow through the engine cooling. In dealing with this they are saying that they had to limit engine rpm and thus performance. I'm sure it is the two races and the extreme heat as well.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by the puffs of smoke. When Webber was dealing with de la Rosa he was driving very defensively and going off line kicking up sand and dust. I don't that this is what you saw, but it might have been. I'll have to look again myself.
> 
> I think they made an improvement in the FW27 for Bahrain. Webber was fastest in the last Practice and I think set a lap record that no one else reached. So, I'd say they are making good progress. That doesn't mean much when they don't finish though or when they can't use the full engine power available.


 yeah, but it was a dry heat!


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## berford (Sep 10, 2002)

Elwood said:


> yeah, but it was a dry heat!


I know you're kidding, but I don't think the engine cares what kind of heat it is.

I'm curious how seriously the stewards take that post-race tire inspection, given that it looke to me that all the cars in the winners circle were potentially out of spec. Especially Alonso's right rear. I still think, though, that the concept of "tire management" has no place in F1.


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